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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 20, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Some continue to claim that we have not been forthcoming about the "enhanced" hooks on Wings of Steel. The hole count of the route, and its "repeatability" are called into question. And the claim is made that we continue to hide something: "the big lie."
All but the "repeatability" issue are entirely specious. We have been more forthcoming about the details of the ascent than any climbers in history. In fact, some of the statistics in my book that a few poke fun at are among the evidences of our studied effort to be forthright and truthful about everything.
To recap:
The book and many threads state the number of holes in the route (145), ALL of which were filled with metal except for a few (I think 9, but I don't remember now) bat hooks on the 13th pitch.
We used 151 hooks to ascend the route. All but 3 were Leeper Narrows, and the 151 does not include the bat hooks on pitch 13.
No "cover up," "big lie," or mystery here. And our hole/foot of climbed rock is a better ratio than other touted routes, like the Sea of Dreams.
The issue of "repeatability" comes up now and then, and most recently it has been suggested that to repeat the route one must be willing to drill additional "dimples" to "enhance" hook placements. It is claimed that we made it easier for ourselves because any time we got scared, supposedly we just whipped out the drill and "enhanced" some hooks. Finally, it is claimed that the the number we "enhanced" is disputable and actually counts as the "majority" of our hook placements.
I have consistently asserted that our non-natural hooks were a very small number, like in the ballpark of 10% of our total hook placements. I have not varied on this estimate.
However, the problem is IN the terminology, because "enhanced hooks" has come to mean "dimpled hooks," and now that term: "dimpled" is applied when it should not be.
I have explained this in other threads, but some people appear to need pictures. So, I have drawn a few diagrams to help the feeble-minded understand exactly what we did and what we did not do.
Diagram 1:
Here you see a cross-section of a tiny edge. The actual size of our hooking edges was typically from dime-thick to quarter-thick (as those who have actually be ON the route will agree), so these diagrams are greatly magnified. You can see a representation of a small crystal that occupies part of the back of the ledge. Turning the diagram 90 degrees (facing the rock) makes the idea clearer. You can see that the crystal makes the edge non-flat. With the crystal there, the edge cannot be hooked, as the hook tip will skit off to one side or the other.
Diagram 2 (what "enhanced" means to most people):
The way most "enhancement" is done is to drill INTO the rock, creating a pocket for the hook tip to sit IN the rock face. The depth of the pocket ranges from shallow ("dimple") to deep ("bat hook"). The continuum shallower than "bat hook" has come to be called a "dimple," and "dimple" has come to be synonymous with "enhancement," as the drilled hole puts more rock under the tip of the hook, making the hook more secure and less likely to fail: enhanced = better.
We did not make ANY "enhancements" in this sense. We did not "dimple" our hooks at all. NONE of what we called a "hook placement," as opposed to a "hole" (as in, the bat hooks on pitch 13), are "dimpled" at all. At no point did we drill INTO the rock face and call that a "hook placement."
Diagram 3 (what we did):
Rarely, a few times, we found potential hook flakes with crystals like this that would keep the hook tip from seating on the tiny ledge. On these few occasions, we found that the point of the drill (we didn't sharpen our bits flat, as is common today; they were sharpened to a fine point) could be used to "explode" that tiny crystal. To do this, we did not point the drill IN toward the rock. Instead, we pointed the drill along the axis of the ledge, using the sharp point of the drill to explode that tiny crystal, leaving the ledge intact, and leaving no "dimple" of any kind in the rock face.
This is why we are able to say that all of our "enhancements" look natural. We did not leave "dimples," as has been claimed. Furthermore, we quickly learned that the tiny edges we were hooking were already extremely insecure, and even the one "tap" to remove such a crystal seemed to make them even worse. We noticed that such ledges seemed to fail more than entirely natural ones. So, our "enhancements" proved to be "anti-enhancements," as they made the ledges more likely to fail rather than less likely: enhanced = usable but worse.
So, as to the issue of repeatability, it's a pretty simple tactic. If you find a small ledge with a crystal keeping the hook tip from getting ONTO the ledge, and you can knock that crystal out of there without pointing INTO the rock, and without entering the rock FACE at all, then you can "enhance" all you want this way. Hehe... you will quickly find that there are very FEW ledges like this, and you will also quickly find that you will typically make the ledge LESS secure this way.
So, far from making your life easier to just willy-nilly produce "dimples" all over your ascent, you will find that you will rarely employ this tactic. And, when you are done, nobody will be able to tell which were natural and which were "enhanced" hooks.
If you feel that your life needs to be made as "easy" as was ours on the first ascent, and you think that "easy" means "enhancing" as we did, then have at it. Just don't leave any "dimples" behind by drilling INTO the rock, because we didn't.
So, anybody that has been kept off of the route by the fear of the hooking can now jump on it will full assurance. You now know exactly how we "enhanced," that was the FA tactic in a few instances, and the FA team encourages you to employ the same tactic if you find an ideal edge but with a problem crystal.
Again, there will be very few of these, and by the time you get up the slab, you will have removed no more rock with this tactic than is typically removed by placing and extracting a single beak placement. (For those worried about the "impact" of a given route, those fears should now be laid to rest. There are fewer holes-per-foot on WoS than on many well-respected routes, and the FA and subsequent ascents do less "rock damage" than is typically done by a single placement on traditional routes.)
Of course, those few remaining vociferous critics are those that have not attempted the route, so they remain clueless about the TINY nature of the hooking. Thus, they remain clueless about the microscopic amount of rock affected by our tactic. I cannot address willful ignorance. But I can address this issue as forthrightly as possible for those that care to honestly weigh the EVIDENCE.
What I do not want anybody to be able to intentionally conflate any more is the idea that what we did counted as "dimples." We did not drill INTO the rock and count that as a hook placement. Our "anti-enhancements" are nothing like what everybody else calls an "enhancement."
[edit to correct a missing "no"]
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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Do people really get involved in such minutiae regarding new routes on El Cap? I must be out of touch.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 20, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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donini do a search on "Wings of Steel" and get caught up on the rantings and ravings about this route....if you want...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 20, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
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Jim: yes.
and it's sad on so many levels (and I mean no offense to the OP)
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Sep 20, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
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Dang, i thought this thread was going to be about "WomenS confessions"--the whole truth about "enhancements"", meaning boob jobs, with pictures.
And again, i get trolled in to a thread by the title.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Sorry, Zip. Didn't mean to bait you. :) Nothing here to see... move along.
Thanks, Joe. Hadn't seen that one yet. I was actually responding to this one:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=924488
And, yes, sadly, this level of minutia is what it takes to set THIS story straight. First the claim was "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute," then it was "a rivet ladder up the slab," then it was, "every other placement is a bolt or rivet," then it was, "most placements needed the drill," then it was, "hard, but mostly enhanced hooking," then it was, "whenever you are scared, just drill a dimple, like the FA team did." The lies about the route and our tactics started out grotesquely stupid, as you can see printed in the "Classic" article linked to above. As more and more evidence has piled up to the contrary, the critics (a few still unfazed) have simply "refined" their attacks... until now, minutia is the order of the day. And, even the "dimples" criticism is unfounded; there were no "dimples" on the FA of WoS.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 20, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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Richard- of the 146 or so pointed Logan hook placements on Wings Of Steel, how many did NOT involve the use of a hammer AT ALL? Both of you guys commit to a number or this is no confession but more of the same.
Your obfuscation is laughable because you know very well what an enhancement is and how often you reached for the hammer to make sure that the hook placement was viable. The use of force isn't vague to anyone else once they choose to drill or chip or whatever.
When I swung over for a look at your work while on Horse Chute, the enhancements were easily discernable.
All of the pitches on the slab have been repeated so no mystery there.
An honest number from BOTH of you... no conflation please!!! LOL
I think Mark knew what he meant when he stated that there were "lots" of enhancements on WOS. Mark what did you mean by the word?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Thanks Lambone, but I'll pass. El Cap is the most important crag in the World, and climbing there has led to an astonishing number of advances both in technique and equipment but I think that sometimes you can get too much of a good thing.
Might be an idea for climbers to get out and explore new venues rather than getting heated up about 'tempests in a teapot.' Yep, it's a pretty big World out there. I found a two thousand foot granite wall in Patagonia last year that is three miles from a road and has never been touched by climbers- not yet, anyway.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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Steve, we have been around this same bush before. I have told you that it is impossible for us to remember a NUMBER of "enhancements" at this point. I am confident that there were less than 20 in the route, but I cannot be more accurate than that, no matter how much you razz me to be more accurate. What Mark recollects is up to him, so perhaps he will post up here as well. But you cannot get a more accurate representation than what I've said from me, because I won't claim to have a more accurate memory than I do have, and no amount of razzing will entice me to invent a number that reflects more accuracy than I have on the subject.
The vast majority of our 151 (not "146 or so;" this is a number we did write down) were entirely natural. Less the (my best estimation, which is all you can get) 10% of hooks that we made usable by removing a single offending crystal (NO "dimples"), our hooking was entirely natural.
Regarding your repeated claims about what you saw on the ninth pitch, I think that any reasonable person can put a few facts together to realize that whatever you claim to have seen was not our work:
1) There are numerous MUCH harder pitches on WoS than the ninth; in fact, the ninth is arguably the easiest pitch on the route. The first, second, and fifth are all much, MUCH harder; and people that have been on them ALL report seeing nothing like what you claim to have seen on the ninth. Without exception. So, this raises the question of why we would do things to make life easier for ourselves on the EASY ninth pitch that we were DEMONSTRABLY not willing to do on other MUCH harder pitches.
2) The ninth pitch is the EASIEST pitch for anybody to get on and inspect. It is easy to get to that anchor via Horse Chute and then rap that pitch at will. The only way to get to the first two pitches is to do them (so far nobody has succeeded) or rap onto them after doing the "bogus start" (still not NEARLY as easy as getting to the ninth anchor via Horse Chute). This begs a reasonable person to question why we would leave such blatant tactics as you report for people to EASILY inspect, while we did not employ such tactics on pitches very difficult to inspect (the fifth is very difficult to inspect).
3) The ninth pitch is the EASIEST for anybody (including YOU) to get on and modify for their own purposes to further the ongoing lies about the route. In fact, Bill Russell told us to our faces that he was going to do virtually that very thing you describe, or chop the route. I put nothing past people that would chop a route they had not done, in the night. Nothing is too cowardly for such people.
4) Given the above three points, I'm sure there would be some people interested to hear what you would report from our HARD pitches. You can get up on the first two and tell us what you report there. If you can get up 'em, you'll be the first since us, and I've already told you our exact tactic, which is easily repeatable by you or anybody. Of course, I don't recommend doing our anti-enhancements very much, because, as we did, you'll quickly find that you fall MORE often. But, all your blow-hard claims are entirely vapid since you have not actually been ON the route. Do some of our harder pitches, tell us ALL what you find, and then perhaps even YOU will question your certainty that we are responsible for whatever you claim to have seen on the ninth pitch.
If you continue to insist on a more accurate number of enhancements than I have repeatedly and consistently provided, then you are asking for something that is obviously unreasonable. We have told everybody what things we did keep track of (hole/hook counts and other such bits of trivia). We have also told everybody that we never imagined our anti-enhancements to become an issue in anybody's mind, so we did not keep records of the FEW removed crystals.
I have challenged YOU to produce similar counts for your routes (it is obviously a HUGE issue in your mind, which it was not in ours), and you have steadfastly refused to even consider the idea, much less produce the numbers. Surely you know (since you seem to think that we do) how many crystals YOU have removed from a copperhead seam, from a crumbling corner, or from a beak slot! So, how about giving US a count, Steve? Hold YOURSELF to the same standard! I want to hear the number of incidents and the grams of rock affected. Or perhaps even you can recognize this stupidity as just what it is: stupidity.
Now, regarding "dimples," as you have come to call them, we have a clear, unambiguous number for you, and it is the same number we have always claimed: 0 (zero), zip, nada, NONE. Meanwhile, after several threads in which this has come up, WE await YOUR count.
Is zero clear enough to satisfy you?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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I agree entirely, Donini! I have even used that exact phrase: tempest in a teapot.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 20, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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The truth about the enhancement.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 20, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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I know not when this was done, but apparently...
"also that same year in february there was another team of euros putting up a new route over by horse chute, i never heard any more about this either."
"Route is immediately to the left of Horse Chute, to the right of WOS. Hard to see, hard to tell how many independent pitches, maybe only 4 or 5? If it goes where I think it goes, it climbs some thin little splitters on the face next to the Horse Chute mega dihedral then up. I remember seeing the portaledge under the WOS roof and then hearing that they were on the ground after some weather moved in. Seemed like the portaledge was up there for weeks, not moving."
which is not to say euros are more likely than not to use enhanced hooks, but just that someone at sometime was climbing in that area. I know not very illuminating. Sorry.
http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=581.msg5969#msg5969
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Sep 20, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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TC,
Now that is what i am talking about!
Does that stuff really work?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 20, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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Mark Smith, you down for twenty enhanced narrow Logan placements out of 146?
If you can't take the hook, set it and move along without hammering, it is not natural or unenhanced. 125 times you guys did this cleanly fresh from the Quarry?
What say you, Gunsmoke?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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Lambone: "Yawn"
If it’s a yawner to you, go read another thread.
donini: "Do people really get involved in such minutiae regarding new routes on El Cap?"
Evidently, "yes". Go talk to Grossman/Mimisoft who (1) care about what they mistakenly call “dimples”, alterations that are actually so small as to be neither "dimples" nor detectable, and who (2) demand an explanation. They started and constantly stir this. Now, at their challenge, I either respond, or they assert that silence means that I concede. Note that this thread was started as a response to Grossman's never ending stir and restir.
Zip
Sorry that this thread isn't about "WOmenS confessions and plastic surgery enhancements. Unfortunately, it's about something far, far smaller and exceedingly less interesting.
The Chief: "LET IT GO!"
Indeed, I would like to. Please note that I did not post once to the last attempt Grossman/Mimisoft made to fire this back up several weeks ago. Is your "let it go" advice to Grossman or me? I'm open for advice, seriously. Do you think silence in the face of being called out by name, multiple times for an explanation should be ignored or responded to?
Steve Grossman : "Your obfuscation is laughable because you know very well what an enhancement is and how often you reached for the hammer. When I swung over for a look at your work while on Horse Chute, the enhancements were easily discernable."
You know, Grossman, it's everything I can do to not attack the man rather than the idea.
"You know very well what an enhancement is and how often you reached for the hammer." The fact of the matter is that you are as wrong about this as most of the rest of your WoS assessments. We did WoS for ourselves, not for you and your narrow opinion of us. We were concerned with climbing to the highest standards and what kind of experience the SA would have. How many crystals were cleared away wasn't part of our calculus. We took no written notes, nor even had the thought cross our minds that we should do so. After more than 25 years, my apologies if my middle aged mind can't replay each pitch to give a "touch the hammer count" (hereinafter TTHC).
Have you been on the Sea? That was the standard bitd. The key pitch, Hook or Book, reaches a critical spot where no hook flake presents itself. So Diegelman whips out the drill and enhances a 45 degree slope into a hookable placement (basically, it's a bat hook poorly disguised as a ledge). The Sea is full of that tactic, although the Hook or Book bat hook is the most noteworthy because it made an A4 pitch into an A5 classic. I can see the Bird taking up the conversation back on Continental Shelf. "Hey, Dave, nice lead. Time for me to log that pitch. Can you give me a rivet count and a TTHC?" Dave, "TTHC?". Bird, "Yah, you know, touch the hammer count."
"When I swung over for a look at your work while on Horse Chute, the enhancements were easily discernable". Grossman, you are full of Horse Chute. Multiple people have been on this climb, by your estimation every pitch from the ground to HC. No one other than you has reported ever finding even one enhancement, even when looking for them. The quality of our work did not dim one iota as the climb progressed. If you see enhancements, they're enhancement of your mind.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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Steve, your insistence on rewriting history is simply amazing and appalling. You quote repeatedly out of my book, so you clearly know what I printed there; and you have posts in this very thread to set you straight. The number 146 appears nowhere in anything we have ever written. The number of hooks we used on WoS is 151. If you can't even get that number correct, in the face of the evidence before you, then you have zero credibility to claim to be so concerned about "accurate" numbers.
Regarding "straight from the Quarry," as the book explains, we spent a couple of days at the base of WoS learning to hook the most ridiculous things before we headed up. The same "aid bouldering" tactics we used successfully prior to Intifada, we used before starting WoS. By the time we roped up, we KNEW what could be done.
Again, this is a documented fact that you simply refuse to take into consideration in your various "revisions" of reality.
YOU yourself could learn all you need to know to get up WoS (if you have the sack) by spending a day at the base to find out what can and cannot be hooked. You, like we were, will be amazed at what will hold NATURAL hooks and can even be top-looped (to reduce the number of them that you have to stand on).
So, spend a day learning what REALLY hard hooking is all about (instead of continuing to delude yourself that Jolly Roger set the high bar), and then you won't say obviously ridiculous things like: "straight from the Quarry."
And, we're still waiting for YOUR count... we'll even let you tell us a fairly vague percentage if you like. We've always been more forthcoming than you on these threads.
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nutjob
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 20, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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We did WoS for ourselves, not for you and your narrow opinion of us
Perhaps Steve is just a little angel sent down to test your convictions?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 20, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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...or maybe Satan hisself--never know with forces greater than yourselves:-)
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Sep 20, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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Props to The Chief.
Word, bro.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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propsx2 to chief. That dude is a climber ;D
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 21, 2009 - 03:18am PT
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Madbolter-
Let me preface this that I do not consider what I am about to say as an attack on you personally, so I hope you can refrain from treating it as such, but I do find your explanation of enhancements a bit disingenuous. It appears to me that you are trying to convince the non-initiated to your cause, as if this were the Supreme Court of climbing.
So the engineer in me just busted out when I saw your drawings, because granted, it's trooth that a wayward crystal can sometimes block a good hook placement, but more often, and I suspect more so in the case of the route you climbed, is that there is a small flake on the verge of exfoliating, geologically speaking, and it gets modified in a flick of a chisel to accept the human made hook placement in order to hold forces in the opposite direction of gravity.
I made some sketches to illustrate, based on my experience of seeing loads of such micro-flakes on my sojourns up the big stone:
From my experience, this is the type of natural feature that would be very tempting to enhance on a lower angle section of rock like that of the apron on the west side of El Cap.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 03:48am PT
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Interesting sketches. Several problems with them, though. First, we didn't direct any force IN toward the face. Tapping perpendicular to the face on a flake like you sketch would not be expected to produce a horizontal edge, and, anyway, we weren't "sculpting." Second, something wide, like the chisel you show, would probably produce a horizontal edge much of the time, but a sharpened POINT like our bits were would more likely produce an odd, 'u'-shaped divet rather than a horizontal edge.
I'm happy to hear how you refer to the odd "wayward crystal," which seems to indicate you've gotten the gist of what I'm saying. But then your drawings indicate that you've just not believed what we've said about what we did. Yes, perhaps someone with a chisel could do what you say would be "tempting," but that's not what we did. What we did is what I sketched. I guess that there can be no "proof" either way, although that is sort of a side issue, since my purpose in this thread was to undermine the use of the word "dimple" to describe what we did. At any rate, we didn't "sculpt" as your sketches indicate. You were right about the occasional "wayward crystal." Nothing more.
Your bit about the "supreme court" of climbing caused ME to bust out laughing. It is honestly pretty funny to me that when Steve et al attempt to convince the uninitiated that WoS is a travesty, and his "evidence" gets overturned point by point over the years, and the space in the corner he's backed into gets smaller and smaller, but he just keeps trying, somehow OUR responses to the endless (although thinner trickle of) defamation become the focus of speculation.
The only legacy I care about in this whole thing is that the actual truth be known, rather than the lies. People will still interpret the truth all sorts of ways, people will still think of Mark and I in all sorts of ways, and about such interpretations we have no say in the matter. What we CAN do is continue to insist that at least the interpretations be based upon the actual facts. There IS a court of public opinion, and we want that court to at least be in possession of the FACTS. Let that court draw whatever conclusions it wants FROM the FACTS.
I'm after a legacy of the FACTS. I'm clueless what legacy Steve et al are after in this endless discussion (that they keep re-stirring, in Mark's words). Seems like THEY are determined that the court of public opinion MUST view us as absolute bone-heads, losers, etc., etc. Well, the FACTS don't bear that out, and at this point it seems really, really odd for Steve et al to keep trying to make that case, using thinner and thinner arguments based upon fewer and fewer "facts." Oh well, as long as they keep trying, we'll keep setting them straight.
Nice sketches, honestly. But irrelevant. And no personal attack taken!
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:37am PT
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Hah, hah, hah! That was a good one, t*r!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 21, 2009 - 05:08am PT
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Madbolter-
Interesting. Thanks for clearing that up.
Another question I've been curious about: you counted the hooks, but did you by any chance count the other placements on the 13 pitches of the new route, eg. pins, stoppers, copperheads, etc? I am curious because all other things being equal, it appears from your statements that not much less than half your placements were holes, bolts, or rivets. That would be a lot. Even a third of all placements being drilled would be a lot.
And perhaps this is one of the qualms that people might have with the route, that WOS has a very large ratio of drilled to non-drilled placements, and thus is not a very natural line.
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Sep 21, 2009 - 05:52am PT
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deuce4
Somehow, since WoS has fewer drilled placements than other climbs on that wall, I'd expect the ratio should be better.
You would think that in 25 years the level of aid climbing would be at a place that blank faces would be climbed a lot more often, given the fact that TC is climbing all the old aid lines free.
Why haven't some of you guys repeated this?
Besides the fact that there have been no technological advances in 30 years of aid climbing that would help with face climbing (cams only work in cracks).
I would have expected that someone else would have seconded it, learned the technique and put up some other similar climbs. No?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 06:10am PT
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I have to admit most all of my experience with slabs is at Whitehorse Ledges and I'll be damned if there weren't a lot of lines there I wouldn't have considered 'natural'. Hell a quite a few of them seemed like they were entirely arbitrary decisions to go wandering hither and yon in the absence of any sign of a 'line'. Wouldn't that kind of beg the question of the legitimacy of a whole lot of slab climbs around the country and whether slabs like the one WoS is set on should be climbed at all? It seems like that would descend pretty quickly into a quagmire of what should be [free or aid] climbed / connected (G.U.) at all relative to the idea[l] of 'natural' versus forced lines.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 06:13am PT
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Deuce4, your statement of the potential "qualm" is stated very reasonably, and I certainly do understand how there could be such a "qualm." I will see if we have accurate figures on those other sorts of placements. I do remember having more than 60 pin/copperhead placements in one of the upper pitches (very long pitch), but I don't know how accurate of figures we have on this point for the whole route. I see this as a worthy concern, however, so I'll look into it.
I would note that this is an off-topic concern, as I'm trying to keep the various arguments from spiraling off into a rat's nest where closure never happens on any particular points. The point of this thread was solely to lay to rest the "dimpling" idea and clarify the exact nature of our anti-enhancements. Hopefully we have succeeded in that quest.
A final point (for now) regarding that concern is that "even 1/3 drilled being a lot" is a judgment call that could well be argued against. I return again to the Sea of Dreams, touted as "the way" when we did WoS. We found MASSIVE amounts of drilling and heavy-handed modifications that were NECESSARY for even the first ascent. As Mark notes, Hook or Book has a number of full-on bat hooks that you simply are not going to get past without using them, obviously drilled on the first ascent, and anybody that has done the route can see that what I'm saying is true. One of those bat hooks is THE difference between a critical "hook" placement (A5 pitch)and a rivet (A4) pitch.
Now, I'm not calling such tactics "bad." I think that the Sea was all it was cracked up to be--a truly awesome, visionary route. However, WAY more than 1/3 of its placements required drilling and chipping.
My overarching point on this concern is that "natural" is a moving target, and some really magnificent routes would fail to clear the bar you have just set, including the Sea and ZM. People that have concerns about the sheer "blankness" of the slab should actually get on the route to see that it is actually not as "blank" as one might think. There is an actual line there, although it is much subtler than on most routes. Perhaps this subtlety is escaping people that have not been on the route.
I remember a passage by Bridwell in Yosemite Climber in which he is quoted as saying, "The thing that makes the P.O. Wall different from other routes is that there are no corners to hide your ass in," noting then how much subtler and tinier the features were. "Subtlety" does not equate to "non-natural," and no arbitrary line (quite a bit short of an actual bolt ladder) is going to accurately brand a route as "natural" or "non-natural."
There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes too. On that point I guess I would just contrast the few micro-gram anti-enhancements of WoS with Bridwell's instructions to the leader on one pitch of ZM: "Beat the sh|t out of those blocks! Really BEAT on 'em! Cut 'em loose!" Anybody that's ever used the pick of a hammer to dislodge a pebble from a crack has been more heavy handed with the hammer than we were with all of our anti-enhancements combined.
Thanks for your thoughts... very reasonable!
Gotta get to bed, finally (working too late and too hard tonight).
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Sep 21, 2009 - 08:49am PT
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Have the Madbolter, his partner, Steve G, and Mimi ever met in person? In the last 5 years? Just curious?
Prod.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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Well, Chief, you know, one man's "self absorbed" is another man's "self defense." As long as we keep getting publicly defamed, I guess we'll keep defending ourselves with the facts.
Nobody is forcing you to read this stuff.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 21, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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Trade ya a "shitter" for a confession?
(it's a joke....relax....)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 21, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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As a lurker who just reads this stuff and laughs most of the time, I got a good chuckle from this:
"...we made usable by removing a single offending crystal ..., our hooking was entirely natural."
"natural" and "removing" in the same sentence is pretty damn funny.
So these guys chipped a few holds on an aid route on a rock that is full of bolts and holes and people are upset. BFD.
Dave
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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So, the some total volume of all the crystals they unnaturally 'removed' on all the pitches combined would amount to about a single stone of pea gravel - i.e. the total volume of the crystals removed on the route was likely comparable to the volume of rock removed for a single bat hook hole, possibly two. How many other FAs could make the same claim?
So the tempest is really more like a 'Princes and the Pea (or two)' dramafest, and in this case the WoS FAs aren't the princes in question.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 21, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Who in YOSAR exactly shitted on the ropes?
Juan
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 21, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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I, for one, enjoy seeing the WoS girls get their panties in a clump. I don't really care what they did or did not do. Besides, El Cap is a whore who's job it is to get drilled.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 21, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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In all this time it's not been repeated? What's up with that?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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27 years and counting, about time for everybody to move on.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Or put up or shut up in the case of detractors who've never been on the line.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Because it's too hard?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Madbolter-
You definitely lose me when you start dissing guys like Bridwell and Beyer. It's pretty obvious you really don't have that much experience on the big walls, having only done a few other routes other than your own, to really know what these guys were all about. Climbing one of their routes, then pontificating and defining their style is petty. When you repeated Sea of Dreams, there had been a few teams who had repeated it before you. One of the subsequent ascentionists is known to have added drilled holes to the route. For you to definitely say that all the drilled holes you saw were Bridwell's team's work can only be conjecture. I highly doubt that 1/3 of the Sea of Dreams was drilled on the FA.
Bridwell has his own style of climbing, that's for sure, it's not like Grossman's, Shipley's, Cole's, or mine for that matter, but everyone has a different way of doing things, that's the beauty and the art of the activity.
And it appears you are trying to make the claim that your style, the style you imposed on the El Cap slab, is also valid, that the difficulty of WOS makes up for the fact that it has a lot more than the norm in terms of drilled placements.
What some are trying to tell you, is that it is not about the actual volume of rock displaced in ascending the stone, and it is not about comparing your route with the testpieces of the major players in the sport, it's about a communal recognition of the art.
You are doing well to convince the non-cognoscenti that aid climbing in general is just a matter of bashing and drilling your way up a rock, but it's not the truth, is it?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Enhancements? We've all moved on and even the meaning and useage of the word has changed.
SEE?
Who can argue against that these days? I'll give this thread another 300 posts at least though...using the old meaning of enhancements of course.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 21, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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i'd wager that the one thing everyone can agree upon is this:
these threads are becoming painful to watch.
therefor i propose the following:
everyone on the planet simply concedes, here and now, that these arguments will eventually be won by attrition, and so all parties (concerned or not concerned) eagerly adopt, right now, what all agree the end result will be: that WoS is a highly respected route, perhaps even THE singular, definitive, all time El Cap classic.
AND..
everyone agrees to not bring it up again, until and unless someone else climbs the route, because in truth, it appears that approach may just bury the issue for all time.
edit- i'm just not at all sure what all the ongoing efforts, thousands upon thousands of "internet postings", are supposed to accomplish, if not that...?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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Clearly more than half of the "internet posings" are about continuing the slander over the removal of about a gram of crystals from the route. Weak.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 21, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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"You definitely lose me when you start dissing guys like Bridwell and Beyer."
I think I made it completely clear that I was not dissing them, well, not Bridwell anyway. I know what Beyer claimed and what he did on one route; the two came wildly apart. Beyond that I don't know anything about him. But, I'd like you to show me a single post where I "diss" on the Bird. Not gonna find it, unless you build in your own definition of "dissing," which I disavow, which simply acknowledges that his tactics were less "pure" than you would like to fantasize existed.
It's funny to me that a few of you think that acknowledging the truth of what has been done on Bridwell routes counts as "dissing." Somehow my genuine admiration for the man and his routes, calling them things like "magnificent," "visionary," and so forth is still "dissing" if I simply note that the tactics his ascents employed were much more heavy-handed than my own have been. I, for one, don't think that is "dissing," as I don't think that such tactics are "wrong" or "bad," as you do. I simply deny this "continuum of righteousness" that you espouse.
And I'm not alone in noting the tactics. Mayfield also told us about some of the heavy handed tactics on the FA of ZM, so I take that as first-person collaboration of what I have seen myself.
You can try to "blame" (I deny that this is even an appropriate word) other parties for what we found on the Sea, but be careful who you blame. Everybody prior to us was well-respected, and the additional drilling I think you are referring to was on a variation. If you're saying that those teams went up there and "butchered" the route, taking it from some idealized "pristine" state to what it was when we got there, well, I'd sure like to hear those other teams weigh in about how THEY contributed to the hundreds of holes and modifications (that were clearly necessary, like the bat hooks on blank rock on Hook or Book) all over the route.
"It's pretty obvious you really don't have that much experience on the big walls, having only done a few other routes other than your own, to really know what these guys were all about. Climbing one of their routes, then pontificating and defining their style is petty."
Petty? Pontificating? Since when did reporting what is clearly there for anybody to see become "pontificating?" You employ loaded, provocative language to make a point that the facts themselves won't sustain. The Sea was heavily drilled and manufactured. I could give you a dozen examples off the top of my head of drilling and modifications we found that were undeniably necessary to make upward progress. Again, if there is "blame" (which I deny at the outset), then YOU can tell me on a point-by-point basis who is to blame. Instead, perhaps you should rethink your icons and ethics and realize that WHO does what in Yosemite matters FAR more than WHAT they do.
"For you to definitely say that all the drilled holes you saw were Bridwell's team's work can only be conjecture. I highly doubt that 1/3 of the Sea of Dreams was drilled on the FA."
Well, you can doubt whatever you like, and if history is any guide, evidence will not sway you. However, if you like I can provide you incident after incident on the route that was necessary for upward progress, and I'd love an explanation of how progress was made without the drilling and modifications. Have you done the Sea? If so, which ascent (or was it long after anybody was keeping track)?
Furthermore, I'd love to hear the account of who did what. It's a VERY short list of people that were on the route before us! I think your "conjecture" idea is microscopically thin. I've been there, I know what was there, I know who climbed the route before us, and I know what it took to make upward progress.
Guys like you are really disingenuous about your standards, evidenced by the following:
"Bridwell has his own style of climbing, that's for sure, it's not like Grossman's, Shipley's, Cole's, or mine for that matter, but everyone has a different way of doing things, that's the beauty and the art of the activity."
Hmmm... I'm confused! First you say the Bridwell et al did a "pristine" (by YOUR notion of such a term) ascent of the Sea. That's obviously and demonstrably ridiculous. You sense that fact, which is why within one paragraph you are already back-peddling: "Well, Bridwell had a more 'heavy handed' style, but THAT was not the BEST style, like the style of the REAL heros, like Grossman, Shipley, Cole, or MINE. Of course, what we were ALL doing was ART."
So then I simply note that Bridwell's style was more heavy-handed than my own; but that's a problem, since MY style is clearly not "art" by your standards. So, what can be done? Hmmm... well, to say anything like the details of Bridwell's style is to "diss" him! Why "diss?" Well, because to put his style anywhere NEAR that of the Mad Bolters is by definition a "diss!" After all, WHATEVER the Bird did is by definition "art," even if it is a "different" (read: less "pure") style than that of the real heros. So, somehow in the "continuum of righteousness," it just HAS to be the case that the Mad Bolters are the definition of unrighteousness and anti-art, which keeps the Bird above them, although still below the real heros! Hahaha... it is to laugh, and I do.
Or, are you actually ready to recognize that there is a whole range of styles that are legitimate, and that styles fluctuate according to the circumstances? Doubtful, but one can always hope.
"And it appears you are trying to make the claim that your style, the style you imposed on the El Cap slab, is also valid, that the difficulty of WOS makes up for the fact that it has a lot more than the norm in terms of drilled placements."
Well, you haven't made any part of this case. First, you have not demonstrated, and we have demonstrated to the contrary, that WoS had a much lower impact than other respected routes of its time. Your avoidance of that fact is based upon your unsubstantiated claims that routes like the Sea and ZM were somehow "pristine" on the FA, and it is demonstrable that you are living in a dream world about that. Our style was valid by the same standards of such routes of the time. That it is also very difficult is a secondary consideration, and one that we have never, ever used as a "validation" tactic. Show me ONE place where we have even suggested such a thing.
Finally, you use another loaded word: "imposed." What a steaming pile! EVERY first ascentionist IMPOSES a style on the rock. Don't single us out for special condemnation. We did nothing more, and actually much less, "impact" to the stone than many others did during that same time frame. Oh, and I guess that the "machine headwall" was a "variation worth drilling for." Hahaha... it is to laugh, and I do.
"What some are trying to tell you, is that it is not about the actual volume of rock displaced in ascending the stone, and it is not about comparing your route with the testpieces of the major players in the sport, it's about a communal recognition of the art."
Yeah, and that "some" is getting fewer and fewer as you guys spend your time even now, decades later, not having even TOUCHED the route, much less climbed it, telling us how BAAAAAAD we were way back then. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the threshold of BAAADNESS keeps moving. Once, long ago, it was just obvious to EVERYBODY how baaaad the Mad Bolters were. But that case gets harder and harder to sustain, and you have to try harder and harder to find some ledge to place a smaller and smaller hook from which to hang your baggage.
You have a narrow, self-serving notion of the "art," and you selectively choose from among your "facts," while avoiding confrontation with countless other utterly falsifying FACTS, to maintain your dream world of this fine time in that brief era, when you, Cole, Grossman, and Shipley were doing PURE ART, and everybody else (including, apparently, the Bird) of that time was somehow below you.
Again, a steaming pile. Get over yourselves. Jolly Roger was NOT the hardest hooking of the era, Shipley drilled whenever he felt like it, and it was justified because it was HIM! Your "communal recognition" was a HERD blindly mooing after a few icon "leaders" that were feeding it lies. Imagine if WE would have put up the machine headwall! Hahahaha... it is to laugh, and I do.
"You are doing well to convince the non-cognoscenti that aid climbing in general is just a matter of bashing and drilling your way up a rock, but it's not the truth, is it?"
Well, I guess you'd have to ask people that HAVE "bashed and drilled" their way up a rock. I haven't, so I have no desire to convince anybody about any particular style. YOU are the ones that load this or that style with so much baggage. As I said earlier in this thread, my goal is not to convince the "court of public opinion" how to interpret the facts. My ONLY goal is to be sure that the "court" at least HAS the facts, which your group of icons has spent decades trying to deny them.
So you'd have to talk to those that have employed "heavier" tactics than I to find out whether or not they think that their particular tactics on a particular route counted as art. I, for one, think the Sea was ART, and I'm not "dissing" the tactics employed to make it go, because that it goes is magnificent!
And your "cognoscenti" line is just more elitist BS. You guys have always had an us/them mentality. We came into "your" Valley and did not deign to recognize you as demi-gods, so you spent decades lying about us. Now that the lies are becoming common knowledge, you have to grapple with how that's going to play out for your fantasy view of that wonderful, pristine time (that never existed). Harding had it right when he talked to Corbett (and perhaps even you) about WoS. His summation of the crap the "cognoscenti" dished out: "Dogs pissing on trees." He would know.
Still true.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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Matt, if it's so painful to you, spare us your pain (and cheap sarcasm) and just don't attend. That's the easy fix.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 21, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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Will anything ( besides Deuce's insightful questions) be presented on this thread?
Does this cover Any, new ground?
Was there a reason to take up this space on the net?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 21, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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dude-
did you read your own post, just above?
life is too short for the complex you have.
my earlier point is that if EVERYONE said so today, it still wouldn't be (and couldn't ever be) enough to heal what ails you.
you cannot go back in time.
revel in your happy marriage and let this all go.
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dipper
climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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madbolter1
You seem to like words, lots of them.
Go here and practice:
http://www.freerice.com/
I think you'll find your efforts on that site will have a more positive impact on the planet than your current word-play.
Then again, maybe not.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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if you come back to the valley we can have an outhouse at the base of El Cap again. . .
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Dipper
Words are good. I like them.
Deuce4
Hmupf, I spent some precious time to type a response, but thankfully did a last check of the thread to see that Richard published. Unwilling to throw out my work, here's a condensed version:
I think that you misunderstand Madbolter to think that he is dissing on Bridwell. Knowing Madbolter as I do, he has a great deal of respect for the Bird. (Beyer is a different matter.) Perhaps it seems that Madbolter is pontificating about Bridwell’s style and/or calling his style petty, but such is not the case. Madbolter’s point, if I may attempt to speak on his behalf since he seems to be [edit: was] off-line, is that others like Bridwell have, at least to a degree, climbed as they saw fit and created their own styles. Bridwell’s style is open to its own criticisms, yet for whatever reasons he is not criticized. I wonder, if Bridwell had done WoS in the style in which it was done, would it have been deemed as the great undoing of an otherwise proud climber, or would it have been hailed as the ultimate accomplishment of a visionary. Likewise, if the Mad Bolters had done the FA of the Sea, with the tactics employed, would it have been hailed as the greatest climb of its day, or would have it been slandered as an outrageously modified botch job. That’s what I think Madbolter is getting at. Regarding your comments on the Sea, we did the 5th ascent, I believe. After his ascent (3rd), Slater warned us that we would "need" a pair of taper-point ground down Chouinard Cliffhangers to do the route. On that point he was absolutely right, as the route was full of holes meant for such a tool.
Hey, I thought your diagrams were good and you raised a good and unique question regarding flake modification, the first new and worthwhile input on this topic in a long time. Richard already covered that, but I'll see if I can find data on how many heads we placed. I can't remember if we logged that.
MS
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
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Mark -- ".... if Bridwell had done WoS in the style in which it was done,..."
Not even a viable idea/argument .... because it's just pure fantasy.
Stick with reality please ....
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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WBraun
A stronger criticism would be to assert that my questions pose a false dichotomy. My point, though, is that a climb in the Valley is judged as much by who you are as by the merits of the climb itself.
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ricardo
Social climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 21, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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Will someone just give madbolter a hug please.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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This thread was a response to yet more questions of "clarification" on the part of one of the remaining rabid critics. I have clarified. More than a day has passed since I did so, yet, I see no acknowledgment from Steve.
Steve, I await (with bated breath) to hear if you now understand what we mean by "enhanced" and the percentage of "enhanced" hooks. Or, are you now going non-responsive until the next time you accuse us of not being forthcoming and trying to obfuscate?
Also, I await you holding yourself as publicly accountable as you have held us. Still waiting for that count from you.
And to those telling us, in effect, to shut up: you are telling that to the wrong people, and nobody is forcing you to read these threads.
As we continue to be defamed, we will continue to set the record straight. We know that we cannot convince any of the remaining detractors. But we won't again make the mistake of letting time pass with lies as common "knowledge." So, "letting it go" is a function of others at this point, not us.
If our removal of a micro-gram of rock at this point still has a few in an uproar, well, just as soon as they can get over it, we'll be able to quit defending against further defamation.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 21, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Comparing WOS with Sea of Dreams, or any other single route, is a pointless endeavour (though tell the Bird that you think 1/3 of his route was drilled, and I suspect he might consider it a diss). You might as well compare WOS to the Salathe, which only used 13 bolts.
Comparing it to the state of the art as a whole, on the other hand, is appropriate, and that's the point that some on this forum are trying to make--whether the tactics employed for the features encountered on the slab, including the amount of drilled placements required for the ascent, validates the line.
My personal experience and knowledge, and from what I have read on this forum, leads me to believe it required a lot more drilling than other routes of the era, and I don't subscribe to the belief that the end difficulty justifies the means. So therefore I have doubts about the line. But that's just me.
On the other hand, perhaps it might one day be considered a visionary route. If the slab could be climbed with only drilled anchors at the belays, then this would be certainly be true. But with the amount of drilling (and the "non-enhancements", for that matter) that were employed on WOS, is it visionary, or is it a forced and unnatural line? That's the question to me, and would still like to hear more details.
Climbing is not like a structured game like golf, where there is a defined, albeit a bit arcane, set of rules. It's more of an art. And like all art, it is in the eyes of the beholder. El Cap is the greatest canvas of all the big stones in the world. There are some on this forum who fiercely protect that canvas.
One can imagine how silly this will all seem when the Gecko Tape becomes commercially available for climbers. Then it will just be a matter of leapfrogging the gecko pads up the slab, no worries!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Chief, we got the lifetime of criticisms and second-guessing without doing the defending. Now we're doing the defending, and that has been effective on many levels. You can't convince people that have deep-seated emotional commitments to their perspectives, so that evidence and rational argumentation has no effect. But you CAN convince people that care about evidence and rational argumentation.
I DO like words, because history shows that violence and words are the two primary forces for change in the world. Of the two, words can actually convince people, which makes change lasting.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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madbolter1 -- "If our removal of a micro-gram of rock at this point still has a few in an uproar, well, just as soon as they can get over it, we'll be able to quit defending against further defamation."
That's just plain stupid too. You've defended your case ad nauseam for 25 years. Leave the detractors behind to squirm in their own hell.
You've got nothing to prove to anyone. Leave them in the dust ......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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All good points (this time), Deuce4. And, as with all genuine art, some will approve and some will disapprove. Some will like what they see, and some will not. I don't care about opinions at that level, nor do I care about who thinks WoS is "visionary" and who thinks it is a POS. As I have said, I don't care about the interpretations. I care that the truth of what's actually there be told, rather than distortions, intentionally misapplied terminology, and outright lies.
Regarding what the Bird would or would not like to be told about the Sea, as I said before, it's a VERY short list of people on the route before us, so I would like to know two things from the Bird and the other people on the route prior to us:
1) On Hook or Book, where there are numerous bat hooks on 45-degree, smooth slopes or on outright blank rock; and these bat hooks are exactly placement-to-placement distance apart, leading you right to two rivets from which you pendulum... to more bat hooks interspersed with natural hooking, WHO drilled the bat hooks, and if not the FA team, exactly how did THEY ascend the otherwise blank rock? (Remember that Mark and I know what the limits of tiny hooking really are, so don't try to foist off on us that the FA team was hooking imaginary things.)
2) I would have to look up which pitch it was, but there is a section of one pitch that ascends a wafer-thin detached flake for 20 feet. The left edge of this flake has manufactured ledges that perfectly accept a Chouinard Cliff Hanger. Again, these ledges are placement-to-placement distance apart. The flake is too friable to take gear IN it, and the surrounding rock is utterly blank. Again, if the FA team did not chip those hooking ledges, then WHO did, and how did the FA team get up that flake without the ledges?
I could ask many more similar questions, but you get the gist of it. I'm just reporting what we found and saying that without the modifications certain sections were clearly not climbable. At least, it is POSITIVE that some well-respected team found those sections unclimbable without the modifications we saw. And, finally, the modifications we saw are entirely consistent with what the Bird has published about his own tactics and what Mayfield has stated about just one tactic on ZM.
So, this isn't an issue of what anybody would like; it's an issue of facts.
"Art" is a slippery word, and it leaves a LOT of open territory for tolerance rather than rabid dogmatism and defamation.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Actually, Warner, you yourself several years ago accused us of not saying enough to defend ourselves, thus stating that most of the blame for the ongoing defamation was on our own heads. Want me to find that quote from the earlier threads?
We haven't been defending ourselves for 25 years. Actually we've had very little to say for about 23 of the last 27 years. Only when we decided to use our voices on this forum for the last several years has the truth actually been coming out and being known.
So, when our detractors help themselves to a term like "dimple," when that term has exactly zero relevance to the route, we will not just let that slide so that it becomes common currency about what is on the route.
The more THEY try to argue how baaaad we were, the smaller of a corner they paint themselves into. I'm quite happy with how things have been going over the last few years. And, I really don't care who on this forum "likes" me or anything like that. It's basically impossible for people to form really accurate impressions of ME from the tiny window this forum provides.
All that matters to me on these WoS threads is that further defamation does not go unanswered. Simple, really.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 21, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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Madbolter
This isn't about the Sea of Dreams. Different route, different climber. Birdwell's long established career and originality has gained him a place of respect. Frankly, and I don't mean this unkindly, that is not the same as you.
Regarding the wafer-thin flake that someone on Bridwell's team apparently chipped to make hook holds. I've seen that a lot too, and might have even done it myself in a pinch on a FA. But again, this is not a question of total number of grams of rock affected.
Imagine if there were a pristine 3000 foot wafer thin flake running up the side of El Cap. Even Bridwell would have gotten tons of grief if he had just bashed a hook placement every 3 feet. It would be a desecration of something beautiful and potentially climbable by someone else in better style. That's why it is pointless to compare what Bridwell did on the Sea, which has a huge variety of different types of climbing features, with what you did on the slab-- they are different beasts.
I think the reason why WOS hasn't been repeated is because in the end, it's not really that interesting to search around for tiny hook placements, not knowing if the one you are looking for is in fact one of the 20 (or whatever the count may be) that you enhanced, all the while knowing that all that's going to happen once you get to the next rivet is that you will have to do the same thing again, and again, and again. If it were pure and in its original pristine state, this kind of climbing might be more compelling, but it will never be that way again.
Course, it's a big wide slab....
ps. this is all not to say that what you did back in 1982 is bad or good, it's more to say that there might be some validity in the criticisms directed toward the route, just as there might be some validity in your claim that it is a reasonable line. In either case, it's part of El Cap history at this point.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 21, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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Madbolter & Mr. Smith,
I have read this whole thread, and all past threads on the topic. I must say that I have gained total respect for both of you in the manner in which you have taken up your defense. I think Mr. Smith put it best with his..."I wonder, if Bridwell had done WoS in the style in which it was done, would it have been deemed as the great undoing of an otherwise proud climber, or would it have been hailed as the ultimate accomplishment of a visionary. Likewise, if the Mad Bolters had done the FA of the Sea, with the tactics employed, would it have been hailed as the greatest climb of its day, or would have it been slandered as an outrageously modified botch job." I think that is the jist of this whole played out discussion. I am but a "punter" in the great society of "real" climbers, but I think that if Bridwell would have put up WOS we would not be having this discussion. Duece, you are a man I have always respected, and your "Birdwell's long established career and originality has gained him a place of respect. Frankly, and I don't mean this unkindly, that is not the same as you." simply confirms Mr. Smith's premise that it is not about the climb but the climber. I look forward to the day when someone among the Valley "entitled", yes you Mr. Braun, will get off their high horse and get real !!
Cracko
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Just to clarify my statement about one pitch on ZM and the quote about "hammering hard" I was referring to an act of trundling, there were loose chunks of rock stuck in the Lightning Bolt corner, my first effort was to place nuts, pins and heads in the outer layer of loose and rotten rock, then I fell, and Jim encouraged me to be more heavy handed beating out the loose stuff and getting to the more solid corner underneath. Most FA's on the SE side involved trundling a fair bit of loose rock. Chipping the edge of a short loose flakes to accept hooks or slings has also been done a few other places in the diorite, including by Robbins on the NA.
I think your line was unique in going up a big "blank" slab and so is not comparable to the antics played out on the loose highly featured black stuff on the right side. I am curious about your comments on the Hook or Book, which I still hope to do, I have talked with a lot of people who have done it, (including our own Double D, first ascentionist) and have never heard reference to Bat Hook holes, which usually mean hook holes straight in, I thought the holes were angled down behind slopers.
Agree with Duecey (howdy John!) on the craft of first ascent aid climbing being ART, and like any art subjected to critique.
Carry on,
Peter
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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Not even close. (I'm dissing my buddy cracko, not peter)
Still waiting for something that hasn't been said a thousand posts ago.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Thanks, Cracko! I couldn't have said it better myself, with all my words! This has ALWAYS been about the Valley elite thinking that it's THEIR valley, as Harding said: "Dogs pissing on trees." They can try to spin this any way they want, but it all washes out the same way. Finally, even Deuce comes clean with the real story, a real story that probably Grossman and a few others never will. I expect negative spin or even a full retraction any minute, 'cause Deuce just gave away the farm.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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That exchange was better presented than any in the politicrap thread with 10,000+ posts.
I still can't believe that stone monkeys quibble over the amount of metal/hammer combinations taken upon the rock during ARTIFICIAL climbing--seems like 1 (one) is enough to upset the psyche of the route's root, past that it it simply ego.
edit: JM and MB, that is.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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"This has ALWAYS been about the Valley elite thinking that it's THEIR valley."
Clueless as ever.
There is no Valley elite .....
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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Duece said: If it were pure and in its original pristine state, this kind of climbing might be more compelling, but it will never be that way again.
Hey! It's been 25+ years since it was done - It is now probably in the exact same shape it would have been had it never been climbed. I doubt that any of the edges the FA team hooked still exist whether "dimpled" or not. (discounting the drilled bolts and rivits of course)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Peter, we are largely in agreement, given what you've just posted. The "game" gets played all sorts of ways, always taking the circumstances into account. You trundled "tonnage," while we "trundled" a micro-gram. Different games for different situations. And, as we've said, "art" is a nebulous thing and hard to interpret.
Regarding what we saw all over the Sea, I count as a "bat hook" any hole INTO the rock face to make a hook placement go that otherwise could not go at all. You seem to suggest that sort of thing with your reference to "angled down behind slopers," and we saw lots of those; these were "hook" placements that could never have stuck on the high-angled slopes without a full-on hole. However, there were also quite a few full-on bat hooks on the route that are just in blank rock... maybe the slightest perceptible ripple.
Again, let me by crystal clear: I'M not "dissing" on the FA team or on such tactics! The Sea is the most awesome route I can imagine, and I feel honored to have gotten on it before the MANY other blatant atrocities occurred that we saw on it during our ascent of Ring of Fire. The poor thing got beat to death, in people's quest for hollow glory. Yet even now it's a proud route! And I was mighty scared on Hook or Book when I led it! Good, good stuff!!!
Tactics produce art, or they fail, and who is to say which is which? Each will decide that for themselves. But to diss a painting you haven't even seen, to diss a song you haven't even heard, especially just because somebody you know who also hasn't seen it or heard it doesn't like it, is beyond arrogance. It's the lowest form of the mooing herd mentality.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Sep 21, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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I, for one, would NEVER dis a song I have not heard.
My .02.
Metaphor? Maybe....Groove on.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Sorry, Jaybro. Just sayin' the same things over and over again, 'cause they seem to need repeating.
Even three posts before this one, I appear to need to say again, "no dimples on the FA." See? It's amazing how once a term gets misapplied, it quickly becomes part of the common currency, and then it's a struggle to get things straight again.
It's like the "pro life" crowd co-opting that term, as if a person believing that a woman's rights trump a fetus' rights make such a person somehow "anti life" or "pro death." Ridiculous!
The terminology matters.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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No Valley elite, only Valley Christians...
Just to clarify, I'm with Peter, in that the impact like breaking a flake with the pick of the hammer would have been done in times of direness. Just as sometimes I'm sure I might have occasionally placed a pin where I could have tweaked in a A3 nut, not ideal behavior (but I'm sure I said my ten "Hail Royals" as penance).
The point is, such behavior wasn't the style we aspired to, or would defend as appropriate. The hammer and chisel used together on the rock, on the other hand, is intentional sculpting--which is more what we are talking about here (and which, by the way, was considered a forbidden tactic in the 80's by my peers).
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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oops, got sidetracked again!
I thought we had moved on from the chiselled aspect of the route, by establishing that some, but apparently not many, of the hook holds on WOS were enhanced with hammer and chisel, but none by removing a crystal any bigger than 1mm in size.
Your Honor and esteemed members of the jury, if we could have MSmith to the Bench to verify that he, also, could testify that he did not remove any rock larger than 1mm, I think we can lay that one rest, as there will never be more we could squeeze (like water from a rock) out of that one.
But going back, I'm still curious about the ratio of the drilled placements to natural placements. We've been on the verge of hearing it from the FA folks here on this thread.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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I understand what you're saying, Chief. I really do, and I'm not opposed to it in principle.
But, I think you sell Mark and I a bit short to think that this is nothing but personal redemption for us. I think we both live quite "redeemed" lives. We're happy, gainfully employed, have a successful business, great wives, in Mark's case two great kids, and genuine purpose to our lives. This whole debacle is almost entirely behind us, and we're not in "bondage" to it.
However, that said, despite what Warner claims, we are not "clueless," and anybody following these threads can clearly see what Yosemite history has been rife with. There has always been an "elite" there, always the "locals" of the best climbing area in the world. They have been tightly connected with guidebook writers, the publishers of magazines and books, gear manufacturers and sellers, etc. I'm not talking "conspiracy," just clique.
Bottom line is that they attempt to quash the spirit of independence that makes climbing so great! That would be bad enough, but they do not even hold THEMSELVES to the standards they set for others. (STEVE, where's your count???) It is this mindless, inconsistent, asinine elitism that I care to resist.
Your response to such elitism is a quick fuk you. I understand the sentiment. But it's worth it for me to fight the issues I see that really go way beyond WoS. If you don't want to follow along with the back-and-forth, I completely understand. But I'm a victim of my own personality, I guess. I just have a very low BS tolerance, particularly when that BS makes people feel that they are entitled to treat others with less ethical consideration than they have for a micro-gram of rock!
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Having a conversation with some guys who were there at the time(the very long time) the Nose FA took place, they referred to it as a "fiasco" and "travesty". That was the opinion of some at the time it was taking place, not 50 years later. Honestly, a bolt ladder pitch? That was an "At All Costs" route. What "style" was that again?
These guys did WOS groung up. It hasn't had a second ascent. You think Ammom, Pete, & The Chief don't know how to climb or are in on the conspiracy?? All 3 are WAY more current than any of you. "New Wave" A3 mean anything to you or are you still back in the day calling it A5??
Let's have an actual trial, with a jury of peers. Peers meaning you've had to do an El Cap route with hooking. One or 2 moves doesn't count, I mean hooking. If you haven't customized or modified your hooks you probably don't belong on the jury. What's a good pub, I mean courtroom for this??
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Wait, wait, WAIT, Deucy! What WE did was "intentional sculpting," while everything from trundling to chipping ledges up an entire 20-foot flake, to sooooo many holes in slopers is all just to be "washed away" by "dire circumstances???"
I cry BS!!!
We did not "sculpt." We tapped a single crystal out of the back of a flake a few times in 1200 feet to avoid a bolt or rivet! We didn't "create a placement" out of whole cloth, like somebody well-respected did on the Sea with that 20-foot flake!!! That was not "dire." That was simply somebody saying, "Well, it's this or a line of holes. At least this approach USES an existing feature!"
SAME mentality as we had, just on a MUCH, MUCH...
MUCH smaller scale.
And, the "standard you aspired to" in the 80's is the same one Mark and I aspired to. If you got on WoS, you might detect that we strove for that standard and by known ratios didn't do too badly at coming pretty durn close.
I'm waiting on Mark for the stats on the other placements. He thinks we might well have such a list in a file somewhere. I honestly, genuinely hope he can produce it. It will only help make that case.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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Yeah, you're right, Chief. But I was taken by such arguments at a young age. Now I'm compelled to contribute to them. But, you're right, the "truth" will be told by people long after we're all dead. Heh.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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(either that or nobody will give a fuk =)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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Yeah, more likely, Matt. And then the universe will reach maximum entropy.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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cause things get chaotic without 30 yr old aid routes to bicker about?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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Maybe the test of time, ethics, and style (aspired to or etched in stone) should be the degree to which natural erosion eradicates [non-protection] telltales of ones passage per decade. I suspect by that measure WoS is one of the few routes in the Valley that boasts a 'clean slate' today.
I find it simply amazing that the untraceable easing of less than half a thimble of crystals from their perches on 'natural' microledges over nine pitches can somehow be conflated to the status of a breach of ethical, technical, or stylistic sensibilities of such epic proportions. And from Pete's, Ammon's, and the Chief's direct testimony of what they found on attempting to second the route, at the very least it's more than clear that amazing lies were and continue to be spread about the ascent.
Also, there is still a boatload of beer and wine on the table available to anyone who seconds it. Maybe it will just have to wait for someone from NH or NC with less delicate sensibilities to get the job done.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Joe-
It's really not that simple, of course.
Obviously you could drill your entire way up El Cap with 1/4" deep bathooks. The total volume of rock displaced may indeed be less than a 10 pound flake that a climber might break off on a FA in the brittle Diorite on the right side, but can there really be any comparison?
This is not to imply that WOS is a bathook ladder, but it's not the Salathe either. It's somewhere in between (and with 145 drilled holes + some enhancements in 13 pitches, WOS has a very high "density" of drilled placements). Whether or not the route crossed some invisible ethical/stylistic line is the question at hand.
Or is there just no "line", all things ok on the shared resource we call El Cap?
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Look. I’m going to pipe up again. Number 1. Respond to my post if you have done the route. (Wings of Steel) Number 2. Respond to my post if you know Richard & Mark or me! Number 3 shut the f*#k up if you are going on something you were told or heard. I’m telling you all, flat out. I have heard so much bullshit about this route. I what to vomit ! Some from people that weren’t even born when the f*#king thing was done. Little pusses just jumping on the band wagon. And furthermore. Mark & Richard are two of the best aid climbers the Valley has ever seen. Period. Pete and I are the only ones that have ever stood up for these dudes. Pete because he has done part of the route. Me because I know them both.They are good folks. Un-like a few of you.
Dogtown.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:09am PT
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John, I agree with the question about 'is there a line' as that's what I've basically thought about slab climbing in general - aid or free. At Whitehorse in the mid-80s I was taken by some locals to look at some .11 slab lines. We started walking up the slab from the trail and just kept walking until it eventually it got pretty damn hard if not impossible to 'walk', and damn if we weren't even at the start of the climb yet. When we did finally get to what they called the 'start' of the climb I distinctly remember asking them the following questions:
 How long can you stand here?
How do you know this is the same start as the last time?
Why is this the start as opposed to over, down, or up there?
Is there another route within 30 feet of us right now?
If so, what's the difference between this one and that one?
How do you decide where to go?
What the f*#k do you climb on?
Your point?
You can do this stoned?
Are you guys frigging nuts!
Up to that point I'd never even considered the notion of climbing up what even at close inspection seemed like a featureless pan of rock. Man, did I get schooled in about a dozen ways that day. Definitely a matter of precise static thinking, movement, and breathe and absolutely no place for a swinging dyno monkey like myself. Same deal with Xmas Tree Pass - you call that a frigging 'line'? Hell, I bet I took off more crystals there with every single foot placement than Mark and Richard took off of nine pitches of WoS.
It may be about as close as I personally can think of to being waterboarded on rock, but clearly there are some really twisted people out there who like going down that rabbit-hole and find a peculiar Wonderland of freedom in infinite, microscopic vistas; who am I to question that? Ditto for Looking Glass and a few other places I've been. It's a miracle to me that it can be done at all.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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The issue of the Wings of Steel route, even 25+ years ago, has always logically come down to a simple equation:
Somebody else, anybody, go up and do the route, and then say what they think the route is worth.\
There is no question the First Ascent took place.
To date, nobody has been able to repeat the route.
All this bear-bollocks speculation and denigration-from-the-base is worthless, except as an emotional outburst that has no place in our logical world.
Wings of Steel remains the hardest line on El Capitan. Period. It's never been repeated, although more than a few have been called.
But, none have been chosen.
And until a second ascent of Wings of Steel takes place, no objective peer-reviewed information about the route is available.
So, either shut up, or put up. As in, put up ropes up that line.
Wings of Steel is the hardest line up El Capitan.
Wings of Steel is so hard, even the hardest Yosemite Hard Men can't do it.
Only Mark and Richard could do Wings of Steel.
And now?
The Best Of Yosemite won't climb their route, but will, instead, say that Mark and Richard were bad men to climb the route they pioneered.
All too transparent . . . . . .
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:58am PT
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Pure comedy here. I have a number of 5.17d freesolos around the country too. ONSIGHT! until someone repeats it they are THE HARDEST ROUTES IN THE WORLD!!!
until burt bronsons climbs them naked
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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Please, enough of the "do the route or shut up" arguments.
It would certainly add to the discussion if the route has had a second ascent, but it's not essential.
Taking the art analogy further, if someone flicks paint on a canvas with a beach towel, then says, "this is as good as any Jackson Pollock", that may or may not be true. But if a another artist disagrees, it's like telling that artist, "You have to first take up beach towel painting before you can talk about it." It's irrelevant.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:31am PT
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John, respectfully, I disagree with your argument.
The WOS issue is whether or not the route is "valid", and in the absence of a second ascent, there is no way to ascertain the "validity" of the first ascent.
This is very close to the core of our communal idea that ascents, in particular, are subject to the acceptance of the group. And when there is a dispute or disagreement regarding a first ascent, our group then resorts to a second ascent to affirm, or deny.
There has been no second ascent.
There is no dispute of a record of the first ascent.
The "validity" of the route WOS is, therefore, wholly dependent on a second ascent to make things clear and logical.
Our game requires this sort of repeating of a route, at least once, in order to make logical sense and get away from nonsense verbiage about how Mark and Richard were not "qualified" to do the Hardest Route on El Capitan because they never did the Salathe, Nose, or other easier routes.
Mark and Richard did a line, their line, Wings of Steel.
And anybody who wants to put the black paint across their route has to, at the very least, repeat it, and then say, in person:
"I went up there, and this is what is up there."
Nobody has been able to repeat their route, to date. All I see is bad juju energy towards defaming Mark and Richard, and inventing slurs about the way the Wings of Steel route was first done.
It's surrealistic, to me.
I am disillusioned, but not surprised as it were, that Others are attempting to maintain their Position by pushing down and attacking two guys who just showed up and did a line up El Capitan that had never been done before.
A line/route the Others were not able to do.
And a nice, good line it was . . . and still is.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:01am PT
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BAD analogy, John.
The actual analogy is this: you HEAR from somebody that you know has talked to somebody else about somebody else who has apparently flicked paint onto a canvas and compared it to great art. Then you spend decades jumping on the defamation bandwagon, calling the artist you heard about thrice removed a complete poser, as#@&%e, loser, and destroyer of all that is wonderful and perfect in the world of art. You've never even seen the supposed painting, and you know nothing of the artist or the artist's original claims about the painting.
You hear that somebody else was so outraged by what the artist was trying to start that they stole the canvas, shat upon it, smeared it around, and then returned the desecrated painting to the artist.
The artist cleans the canvas off, and, you hear, recreates the painting. The audacity of this artist enrages you even more. How dare he REPEAT and then FINISH this abomination? You KNOW it is an abomination, because you have HEARD it... from, well, people. Of course, as you know, none of them has seen the finished painting, but that's no threat to your perspective, because they are the most credible people you know.
You then, publish in various art books and journals wild speculations about the artist's character, talents, background, and associations, always finishing with another heaping dose of ignorant defamation about the painting itself, which, again, you have never seen but only heard about from people who themselves have only heard about it. You succeed in keeping the artist's attempts to clear his name OUT of these same media.
Finally, the artist finds a forum in which to speak out against the decades of misrepresentation. You spend years questioning the artist's integrity, character, motivations, sanity, etc. Again, you have never seen the painting, although through all of these years you know that you can easily view it through the window of a local gallery. But you can't be bothered to even walk over there to see the painting through the window, much less get close to it and really inspect it.
Eventually, a few people do go examine the painting. They return to report that the painting is not AT ALL as it has been described to everybody. They report that the painting is actually quite impressive in many ways. Perhaps, they say, this painting actually IS art.
You cannot accept this, even given these first-hand reports. This simply does not fit with your multi-decade world view about art and its accomplished practitioners.
Your defamation now takes a new form. Now, in the face of growing evidence against your view, you simply mock the artist's efforts to explain the painting. You search for the SLIGHTEST inconsistency in everything the artist says in his own defense. You tell him to "get over it," despite the fact that even the demonstrated FACTS fall on deaf ears. You question the artist's mental state that "after so many years" he could possibly continue to care about the facts, despite the growing realization that the defamers are the ones that cannot seem to "get over it," as they perpetually keep the distortions before the public. And you deride the artist's efforts to remind people of the known facts in the face of the ongoing efforts to distort and deny the first-hand accounts of what the painting was like.
You still haven't seen the painting, but you finally start actually talking to the artist. Trying now to be "fair," you ask him detailed questions about how much red he used, how much blue he used, how full the canvas was of this or that color, how big the canvas was, and how much of the canvas was left as white space. You ask him what brushes he used and how he used them. You ask DETAILED questions: Was the brush turning INTO the canvas or perpendicular to it for some of those strokes? From this statistical information, you smugly conclude that you know all you need to know to judge the painting. After all, YOU are such an artist that YOU can know just from the statistical data what the painting must look like. You can know just from what you have heard, without ever seeing the painting, whether or not it is art.
When people cringe at this smugness, saying, "But, really, you should LOOK at the painting," you reply, "I don't NEED to look. Let's shut up with this stupid 'looking' argument! Looking is a red herring. Looking is irrelevant."
Should I go on? Or is the absolutely ridiculous, outrageous, blatant arrogance of such an art critic apparent to you? If you don't see yourself in any part of this actual analogy, how can you possibly avoid it?
BAD analogy, John.
And how can you possibly have the arrogance to think that just from some statistics you can tell whether or not what we did was "worthy?"
I am positive that you do not know the real statistics about the Sea, yet you are confident that it is a "worthy" line. Would there be any set of stats about the Sea that could change your mind about IT's worthiness? Or, can you now be intellectually honest enough to admit that stats don't tell you much of anything about the "worthiness" or "artistry" of a route?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:09am PT
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Tom, I see your point, but in this case, we have a lot of information. Heck, the FA guys even wrote a book.
We know the route goes up a steep, featureless slab with lots of thin hooking. We can figure from the amount of bolts divided by the length of the route (and taking into account belay anchors) that there's a rivet or a bolt every 15-20 feet on average, with some longer runouts and ladders here and there. The hooking in-between is thin and difficult, but not much fun, according to Ammon. There's some pointed-chisel enhanced edges en route that might be hard to spot. And there's a few other sections of copperheading and other placements.
All this provides plenty of fodder for comment.
{EDIT, a few days later}: Somebody else apparently calculated a bolt or rivet every 8.3 feet on average. My numbers above weren't meant to be precise, rather, to indicate a typical span between drilled anchors that would require hooking moves. Poorly stated, and apologies if this tweaked some readers...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:12am PT
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As I said, the only WOS closure is in the second ascent.
Everything else is ad hominem idiocy.
SHUT UP, OR CLIMB IT
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:23am PT
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Madbolter-
"Looking" is exactly what we are doing.
It's a critique, in other words.
Didn't you start this thread?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:38am PT
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I see that you are nonplussed: "All this provides plenty of fodder for comment."
The problem, John, is that what has gone on, and continues to go on is not merely "comment." I have zero problem with people saying things like, "not much fun," or, "not enough gain to pain ratio for me," or, "slabs just don't turn my crank." Whatever. But what you and a few others have done is indeed to step into the role of art critic without having seen the painting.
I guess you missed my question earlier, but it is the critical question: Do you KNOW the stats about the Sea, and could any set of stats affect your perspective that it is a worthy route?
I know that you do not know the stats, because earlier you argued against what we DO know from the route, and what was then verified by Peter. We DO know the stats, and we DO know that its stats are worse by every measure than WoS's stats (holes per foot, natural to non-natural placements, total number of manufactured placements, etc.) I even got one article published in Rock and Ice after we did the Sea ("How Many Holes?") making these very comparisons back when that information was fresh at hand. The outrage poured forth after that article, and neither Rock and Ice nor Climbing would publish us after that (even our Intifada article was rejected, because we were "too hot to touch.")
Back to the point. You KNOW the Sea is worthy, but how? The mere stats don't bear it out. But... of course, you don't know the stats. But, that's no problem for your world view. You can just look up there and know that the route is "worthy." And, you can just know from some stats whether or not WoS is worthy.
The issue here isn't just "comment." It's an ongoing judgment call, and my ongoing point has been that it's a judgment people are making with incorrect and even irrelevant data.
You would not imagine that you could judge a painting from talk of brush strokes and colors. You would insist on seeing HOW the colors and techniques were actually applied, because the application is everything. Yet in this case you claim that the application is nothing and that the stats are everything. That is, honestly, just amazing to me. Such smugness is simply daunting.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:52am PT
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Is it possible the events that went on at ground level, before the climb, have had more to do with the judgements that came forth about WoS, than what actually occurred on the rock?
I know little about the social dynamics among Yosemite climbers in the 1980’s and sincerely don’t want to offend anyone…..but, often, when perceived “interlopers” arrive on a scene and are conceived to be threatening mores and canon or shaking up the pecking order, they get heaped with disdain.
Paying homage to “the locals” kinda goes against my grain, too, but being unobtrusive and giving respect to people you meet… goes a long way. Again, I wasn’t there and don’t have license for assuming and supposing.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:02am PT
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We can figure from the amount of bolts divided by the length
FIGURE ?????
Hey! Ground-based Bad-Ass alert!
Why not try an objective ascent and appraisal of the route?
And don't "figure" the bolts divided by length.
GO UP, AND SEE WHAT IS THERE. REPEAT THE ROUTE.
Repeating the route is the only way to know, for sure, that those fags, as you claim them to be, are really fags.
I think, if you try to repeat Wings of Steel, you will show yourself to be Real Fag - - - - King of The Fags.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:44am PT
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JuanDeFuca said: Who in YOSAR exactly shitted on the ropes?
Forget chipping 1mm off a crystal in the midst of a 2500' granite wall, Juan knows the important stuff. I would augment the query with:
1. Did the shitters or shitter sh#t on command? A skill I find highly desirable.
2. Did the shitters or shitter sh#t in some sort of container and then carry the contents to the site? A technique that I believe we can all agree is CHEATING and highly unethical.
That is all.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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I don't know Tom, if you're helping these guys any or not, with your, "nobody can do the route" challenges. I know I couldn't but I hardly doubt any of those hardmen, even at the time could probably make their way up if they so determined. How many actual attempts have been made? 2? or 3?
You're not going to goad somebody into doing something they perceive as stupid, hard or even dangerous. I am not qualified to call it stupid because I don't even aid climb. I don't know the field but the point is that the route has not gone "unrepeated" because nobody else can do it and again the ones that can are not likely to take up your challenge.
Arne
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:12am PT
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And what Rokjox said. This is fun, cuz we spectators keep having our heads yanked back & forth, from one convincing side to the other. Maybe its all just philosophy.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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Enter-fukkin-taining as hell!
For the protagonists and antagonists alike, an abject lesson in how not to do things. In that regard WoS was a success. Carry on.
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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Second that...
Thought the comments about how the first
Harding route up elcap was percieved is interesting:
Too bad WOS doesn't follow a more "classic" line;
Maybe 1st ascent team concerned their "art" might
Be ignored and fall into obscurity?
Pecking order/social higher-archy exists for a reason.
We are status seeking creatures.
Wos ascenders got to do their thing, have their
Experience and live to tell.
Expecting more than that, especially after
The reaction generated (ropes) might be
A bit unrealistic. Maybe.
Anyway, great stuff.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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"Taking the art analogy further, if someone flicks paint on a canvas with a beach towel, then says, "this is as good as any Jackson Pollock", that may or may not be true. But if a another artist disagrees, it's like telling that artist, "You have to first take up beach towel painting before you can talk about it." It's irrelevant."
So if you want to comment as a spectator, pick to your beach towel painting and stay away from climbing. A painting is easy to view from the peanut gallery and is designed with the peanut gallery. Climbing is an activity and the climb itself only reveals its secrets to those who climb it.
It's an irrelevant analogy.
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☻
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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What is the big deal? I saw more "enhancements" on that sport route at the base of Lower Cathedral Rock.
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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Stupidly, I keep writing:
Was in yosemite when the wos ropes thing went down
And, gotta say, I know some (most) of those involved.
It may be true about the "clique", or the "social scene"
But, my honest impression of yosemite climbing back then is
That these folks -middendorf and grossman included - are
Really some of the coolest, most laid back and friendly people
You could meet.
And level headed, too.
Like, you gotta really blow it to get their attention and
Do something major - I do not know what - to get a major freak-out
Like the scene and actions regarding wos.
Again, pecking order: check.
Elite inner circle: check.
Anything new? Nope.
nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants.
Just sayin'
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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wrt repeating the route:
as i understand it, at least one modern climber who, in all likelihood, could climb this route if so inclined, reported that he found the route more or less uninteresting, and he said or implied that he'd left it for greener el cap pastures because standing there in his aiders and slowly searching out inobvious slabby hook placements that may or may not have been the right ones (and so may or may not lead to other inovbious placements) was monotonous.
perhaps chief then among the "difficulties" of this route is maintaining interest over the requisite period of time, when there is so much other rock to be climbed, within even a short stroll...?
(it's worth noting that some of the much talked about "reporting" has come from climbers who were there to simply "check it out", and did not appear committed to climbing the route, even from the start, so it's also curious how few attempts there have been on the route- which IMO goes also to the analogy of any route as "art".)
so perhaps a better analogy than towel painting is that WoS is like a book, a long long long book, one that nobody besides the author has ever had the patience or interest in reading, at least not in it's entirety.
meanwhile, the author(s) claim it's "a true classic", and that the reading is simply too difficult for even all the other experts in their field, and that anyone offended by certain passages in the book has taken them out of context.
perhaps the book was dismissed by the authors' peers at the time it was released, and perhaps those authors were heavily criticized for something about the book.
now, a generation later, the authors are claiming that the book was criticized because they were smarter than everyone else, so everyone else was just jealous, and those who support the authors claim no criticism of the book or the authors is valid unless the book has been read cover to cover...
no, it's not a perfect analogy, but the argument(s) are just as pointless, particularly if NOBODY EVEN WANTS TO READ THE DAMN BOOK!!!
...i'm just sayin..
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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"nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants."
Then maybe they can explain it in a way that doesn't make them look like the drama-queens or the piss ants that they've towel-painted themselves out to look like so far.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 22, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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"perhaps the book was dismissed by the authors' peers at the time it was released, and perhaps those authors were heavily criticized for something about the book."
Perhaps that at the time, the peers gave good reviews only to new authors who went down on them first, and these new authors had too much self-respect for that, so that these peers gave it a bad review without even reading it?
The only peers that bothered to TRY to read it gave it OUTSTANDING reviews.
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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How many actually read Rememberence.....
How many make it all the way thru the Magic Mountain....
How many make it thru Finnegan's Wake...
I have never made it thru a Faulkner novel......
Climbing as ART is the biggest crock ever....
Interesting to compare the elite' "best of list" to the reader's list(L. Ron Hubbard is number 10!):
http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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Where do I put the silver stake?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Jim - Isn't it a wooden stake.....
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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SOMEBODY FIND A STAKE, PLEASE!!!!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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Whichever works Daryl.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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WTF is up with Ayn Rand? Never read her... Did I miss the memo?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Matt
Some misinformation needs attention:
-the authors are claiming that ... they were smarter than everyone else, so everyone else was just jealous,
Matt, that is laughable.
-the author(s) claim it's "a true classic"
Really? When did we claim as such?
-so it's also curious how few attempts there have been on the route
By my count 5 Supertopians have been on the route. Ammon states that he was just checking it out, and is the source of your hand-picked example above. Christian George might fall into the same category of becoming disinterested. Bill Russell and PTPP abandoned due to difficulty, not disinterest. That should give you a clue that there's more afoot than "disinterest". Also, the late Rob Slater (pioneer hard aid speed climber) abandoned after 5 pitches because he was going slower than expected and ran out of time, not out of interest. Based on the multiple sets of rap slings that appeared at the first anchor over the years, the number of other suitors was considerable.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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From a few years ago....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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"nothing about the valley scene back then struck me
as it being the domain of drama-queens or piss ants."
Ray, I lived there then. also ... and aside from fisticufFs, chopping chipping, bolting, thieving, drugging, deli stings, shakedowns, potatoes up pipes, SAR site turnover, procreation, polygamy, onanism, OCD, Manic Depression, ranger wars, concessionaire scandal, serial killings, plain ol' murders, holywood films, rigging stunts, base jumping, nudism, bridge jumping, cave sleeping, ferret legging...and somewhat active rock climbing scene, I never saw any sign of drama.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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re: :The only peers that bothered to TRY to read it gave it OUTSTANDING reviews."
not so, just the most vocal ones did...
Msmith-
1) sorry but no, it's not "laughable"- the term "jealous climbers" has been thrown around by you guys and your would be defenders a ton.
(EDIT- it was even written on the back cover of your own book!!! which if was somehow 'the publisher' rather than 'the author', at least has a bearing in terms of how you allowed your story to be told in the public arena, no?)
2) your partner called it a classic in this very thread but i am not going to go search for it, i considered asking at the time what that was based upon besides his own opinion but i was honestly trying not to egg him on any harder.
3) when someone goes slower than anticipated and runs out of time, that's running out of time, not bailing cause it's too difficult (often people return to complete long routes that motivate and inspire them).
4) slings on an anchor in no way indicate that whomever left them ever intended to do more than one pitch. that's like saying all the dogs peeing on your front lawn are trying to kill your cat.
5) wrt my "hand chosen example", there are not many who have the skill, have shown they are not averse to risk and big falls, have tried the route, and have posted their impressions.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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I await an answer to my query.
Was a DNA test done on the rope to determine which YOSAR members did the crapping?
Juan
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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Mark and Richard know who shat on their ropes. In spite of their extended olive branches, the perps have refused to 'fess up or apologize. Too bad, because they would be treated with civility.
I wasn't disinterested on WoS, far from it - I was freakin' scared! I observed no enhancements, in spite of looking very hard for any. The climbing is runout on insanely small hooking edges. To say that it is overdrilled or that there are too many bolts or rivets is ludicrous. The [legit] first two pitches are truly hard and dangerous. There are some nasty ledges to hit which would destroy your ankles, or worse. You are going to take repeated long serious falls until you figure out the hooking sequence, which is devious, twisted and sick.
I really wish Mark and Richard would STFU, though.
And you other wankers who diss the route without having seen it first hand, ought to either do the same, or go bloody climb it. We replaced all the bolts and rivets on the first two [legit] pitches, so there are no excuses. I will take a day off climbing to belay anyone who wants to give it a go. I'll even bring him some beer. Right now at Facelift would be the ideal time. Bring the whole posse up, we'll have beers and put some poor unsuspecting bugger on the sharp end, give him a few Leeper hooks, and send him on his way, with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery.
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Gene
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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Bring the whole posse up, we'll have beers and put some poor unsuspecting bugger on the sharp end, give him a few Leeper hooks, and send him on his way, with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery.
That would be entertaining.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 22, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Downright diabolical.
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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What Wade Icey wrote: LOL!
Graniteclimber: I agree w/ you.
End edit/end post.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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Matt
Despite the urge to respond, I'll try to take the advice of several and let this one go.
Cheers,
Mark
Edit -- Deuce4, some unfinished business with you. Glancing through my notes, it looks like the head count was about 190.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Mark- cheers, right back atchya
Pete- yes, facelift would be a good time, especially if the goal is to have more stories about the 1st pitch(+/-) by some other wanker (no offense intended) who has neither the time, the interest, the motivation, or the ability to spend a month up there ..
re: "with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery"
as per russ' last post-
it might be more helpful to be shouting up beta about where to find the non-enhanced enhancements, or to be counciling the poor bugger about whether he should shelve his own sense of right and wrong and proceed with a few micro-non-enhancement-enhancements, if in fact he feels like that's what's necessary to navigate upward toward the next "drilled hole". after all it's the hardest hooking on the captain and it apparently only goes in the absence of certain crystals that are/were/would be obstacles at several (a dozen? a score? who knows?) unmarked, unidentified, random, and 'impossible to see if you are right there' locations...
(not that it's a confusing quagmire for anyone considering the endeavor...)
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Sep 22, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Is it the FAist's job to put colored tape on the holds he used? WTF.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Who cares if the SAME holds/placements are used?
Logic says that the ones they used are the best/biggest on the lower pitches. If some wall stud climbs it and uses some other ones implementing the FA'ists style, more power to them--they would hardly be scrutinized for their effort by Mark and Richard (guessing here).
Sounds like an(other) excuse to not try it, due to lack of sack.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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^^^^
yeah.... that's it.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Reckon I better let this one go, too.
Seems my questions/comments have struck a nerve. Madbolter's psychological projecting of his past trauma is a bit disturbing. Thanks MSmith for the additional info on the copperheading.
Regarding the second ascent, the climbers might need a special set of guidelines on how the chisel/hammer can be utilised, in keeping with the FA style.
cheerio-
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Matt, just a correction before I move on to more important topics. Just a browser search of the thread (which you could have done in seconds if you cared a whit about accuracy) will reveal that only YOU referred (sarcastically) to WoS as "classic:" "WoS is a highly respected route, perhaps even THE singular, definitive, all time El Cap classic."
I have 2 uses of the word, "classic" and Mark has one in this thread prior to your revisionist historical claim about what we said. Two of those uses refer to other climbs, such as the Sea, and one references the "Classic El Cap and Half Dome Climbs" article by Cole in another thread. Nowhere in this thread do either of us say anything remotely resembling calling WoS: "a true classic," as you assert.
I realize, as do most people following threads in which you participate, that accuracy and simply honest charity is the farthest thing from your mind when you post. You are a flamer through and through.
It's probably stupid of me to correct a flamer, but others might be interested to do the same quick browser search I just did of the thread and see for themselves how just another little bit of defamation bites the dust.
Sad on you, Matt.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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BS dood- i re-used your word, in fairly obvious sarcasm no less...
mojede-
ever sport climbed at rifle?
it's really not my gig, but i went once and checked it out for a couple days.
especially before the routes get really hard, every possible edge has chalk on it, so it's pretty inobvious. in a weird way it's even less obvious than if there were no chalk at all. the result is that you end up spending lots of time standing in/on a climb and exploring all these chalked up edges.
might be more interesting for some than for others.
same goes for WoS hooking, i'd say.
and no, you don't need to hook exactly what they hooked-
BUT-
if it's as sparse and thin as they say, there is no reason to expect that if you diverge from their actual line (say, by hooking something over here a bit instead of over there a bit) , that you will still continue to find passage, or that the passage you do find will eventually lead to their sparse drilled protection, so at a minimum you do risk more frustration, and at a maximum you risk taking what are now pointless whippers on runout (possibly featured?) slab, when you are uncertain if you are even "on route", or taking a path that "goes".
...can't imagine why the line isn't long on the weekends!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Russ, I take it that your copied section of an earlier thread is supposed to emphasize two points: 1) Mark said "many" enhancements; 2) Your ever-present idea that the route is not climbable unless our enhancements are detectable and so usable by the SA party. Ok, point by point:
1) Mark did say "many," and I think Mark should respond to this for himself. I know that in our conversations over the years, Mark has always been a glass-half-empty sort of guy, while I'm more of a realist. :-) Depending upon how you view it, "many" or "few" describe the same 10% of our hook placements being "enhanced." Look at it this way. If you play Russian Roulette with a six-gun and one chamber loaded, is that a large or small chance of you blowing your brains out when you pull the trigger? It's the same 1/6 chance, but a good case can be made for calling the odds "long" and "short." What if the odds were 1/10? Ready to pull the trigger yet? I can see why Mark would call 10% of our hooks being "enhanced" as "many;" yet I continue to call that percentage "few." Mark, weigh in. Why DID you open that can of worms by using such an ill-advised term? :-)
2) I hope this thread has accomplished one thing if nothing else. The idea that the only way up WoS is by slavishly finding and using our "enhanced" placements is simply ridiculous on many fronts. First, "many" of our "enhanced" placements pealed off when we tried to use them (as I said, more often than with regular placements, as a percentage). Often, that left nothing even remotely usable (motivating the "enhancement" attempt in the first place). Typically a rivet went into that spot.
...Wow, just as an aside, it just hit me that this fact is actually better for our "drilling" percentages. After all, a high percentage of our "enhancement" attempts didn't result in a placement that worked, resulting in a bolt or rivet instead. We already count the bolt or rivet in our tally, so the non-placement that resulted from an "enhancement" attempt shouldn't count against us at all, since it didn't get us anywhere. Cool! Hahahaha
Anyway, back to the point....
Second, this climb-by-the-numbers way of thinking simply won't work on WoS. Almost all other climbs are repeated by a fairly straightforward assessment of a pretty closed-ended situation. It's not difficult to figure out what to do, and it's pretty obvious what the FA party did to get past a spot. Once, you've done a route a few times, you can even get to know what placements go where. Climb-by-numbers. WoS is not like that at all. You, like us, will just have to figure out what to do moment by moment. You will have one major advantage (as anybody doing FAs and repeats of slabs knows): As you get more and more strung out, you have a bolt or rivet beckoning you closer and closer.
Also, as I said earlier, not like we have any "say" in the matter, but we would encourage anybody to employ our same tactic, which should result in more falls (as it did for us) and in resulting "enhanced" placements (if they work) that are not detectable.
That slab is a minefield of little flakes. Most will work for you, and about 1/3 will not (what we found). To say that you have to find the FA's exact sequence of enhanced placements is quite ridiculous. The remaining "enhanced" placements are so few as to be entirely insignificant to the chances of success. After this many years, if you found NONE of them (if any still exist), that would be meaningless.
If you get a "feel" for what to hook, you'll do well. If not, well... you will fall a lot more than we did. That's the nature of the game on WoS. "Enhance" all you want... all you dare, if you do it the way we did. That's not going to be what gets you up or makes you fail. The route is about a "light touch," lots of top-looping, a learned "feel" for what's going to hold, and some luck.
The "enhancements" discussion is a tempest in a teapot and has zero relevance to the SA.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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her ya go numbnuts:
(and no, i don't appreciate having to re-read this sad and sorry thread to find it either!)
as posted by you- in context- emphasis added
"I remember a passage by Bridwell in Yosemite Climber in which he is quoted as saying, "The thing that makes the P.O. Wall different from other routes is that there are no corners to hide your ass in," noting then how much subtler and tinier the features were. "Subtlety" does not equate to "non-natural," and no arbitrary line (quite a bit short of an actual bolt ladder) is going to accurately brand a route as "natural" or "non-natural."
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes too. On that point I guess I would just contrast the few micro-gram anti-enhancements of WoS with Bridwell's instructions to the leader on one pitch of ZM: "Beat the sh|t out of those blocks! Really BEAT on 'em! Cut 'em loose!" Anybody that's ever used the pick of a hammer to dislodge a pebble from a crack has been more heavy handed with the hammer than we were with all of our anti-enhancements combined."
(say if you like that you'd meant to include POWall rather than WoS, but given the WoS right before "other routes, that's not what you wrote... your retraction and apology are accepted in advance, thanks for playin)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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John, there's no need for a chisel. None of the features are big enough for such a blunt instrument.
"Projecting of past trauma?" Ha, what a pile. You can do better than that. Drop the psycho-babble, and let's stay with brass tacks. Your analogy was pathetic and lame. My analogy was an accurate nutshell representation of the last 27 years cast in your "art" terms.
The fact remains that the "art critics" feel free to critique a painting that they have not seen, and your idea that you are "looking" from this computerized discussion is transparently absurd.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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madbolter1 wrote:
And to those telling us, in effect, to shut up: you are telling that to the wrong people, and nobody is forcing you to read these threads.
As we continue to be defamed, we will continue to set the record straight. We know that we cannot convince any of the remaining detractors. But we won't again make the mistake of letting time pass with lies as common "knowledge." So, "letting it go" is a function of others at this point, not us.
This sums things up really well, and I think it's worth repeating.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Ok, let's parse out that sentence carefully...
Ok... here we go.... Ready?
"on some OTHER..." (that means other than WoS... got it?)
"classic..." (there it is... and LOOK at what it modifies... wait for it...)
"routes." (There it is, the subject of the sentence, the thing that "classic" modifies.)
So, let me spell it out slooowly and carefully for you in LONGHAND:
"...on some other routes besides WoS that, as I've repeatedly mentioned in various contexts, I consider to be classic."
Got it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Matt, remember what I said about an iota of charity? I mean, that you don't have it?
Ok, good.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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yer letting yer dimwittedness show pal-
(it's OK, i can talk *S L O W* too! note: that's a HINT!)
you
quit
T O O
(^ ^ ^ another HINT!)
soon...
are you bright enough to figure that out, without further explanation? if not- the complete phrase you wrote is "other classic routes TOO". how very Fauxnews of you to diagram only part of the phrase! love it! although a tad predictable, which is why i quoted you in context in the 1st place. so you see, i am being charitable! i am giving you the correct phrase, a significant portion of which you were either lacking or acintentionally omitted... you are most welcome.
so, for final clarification
(in case you are not an english grammar scholar?)
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes..."
does NOT equal
"There's a lot of drilling on WoS. Certainly. There's a lot of drilling and other heavy-handed tactics on some other classic routes too."
(edit- would Jesus intentionally misquote HIMself, or would HE take responsibility for misspeaking? just curious, because here is what you just use to quote yourself:
"routes." (There it is, the subject of the sentence, the thing that "classic" modifies.)
in fact, you inserted a period(.) after the word 'routes', there is no period until after the word 'too')
.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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I mostly quoted the whole thing so I would not be on the "hook" for selective editing or some-such buffoonery....
The point being, and this isn't even really about you guys, but since your route is probably more deserving and applicable than say some crack with random hooking, first ascents have the built in safety valve of being able to dictate the difficulty to some degree.
A 2nd ascent does not have the warm fuzzy blanket of "subtle" enhancing (have you seen all the eyes in the meadow these days!) or drilling when you think your lid is going to pop off. The 2nd ascent is more about the test of man Vs. man, than man Vs. rock. Regardless of what the rock offers to you in the way features, some of the unknown is defeated knowing you can stop and drill when you want, for the most part. A 2nd ascent does not have that luxury. Extrapolate that out and the 2nd ascent is going to be harder than the FA, and with the jigsaw puzzle of enhancements, or now invisible enhancements, the feat of completing the route becomes that much harder than it was for you guys or any other first ascensionist.
So in a nutshell, you guys were some kind of pussies for doing the FA, and with that being said, there is not a single man on earth that can match up to you guys mano a mano....
So I guess you guys are the baddest asss pussies in the world of El cap climbing????
Damn... that didn't really come out right.... I hope you get where I was going with that ;)
TR Edit:
1: you ain't going to facelift
2: get back to class
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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These WoS threads are a guilty pleasure to read.
They remind me of the police brutality videos that have been posted here. The discussion always involves some people blaming the cops, some people blaming the people who are beligerent to the cops...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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I think if somebody would just do a second ascent, there would be a lot more room for discussion here.
Until then, it seems pretty obvious that lots of head trenching and hook enhancing has gone on all over El Cap and attracted none of the slander evidenced against this route.
My conclusion...More victims of "outside the valley local scene" abuse. If you ain't in the club, you don't get the benefit of any doubts.
Peace
Karl
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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Not true Karl on the trenching and rock damage. Those guys have been given shiit and have carried the stigma for years. The are branded. Believe it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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Russ, points well taken, and humorous too.
I disagree (of course) with the idea that we could stop to drill any time the "lid was going to pop off." (Hilarious!) We took falls to try what features presented, and when no features presented, we drilled. Simple "ethic."
And the SA team confronts exactly the features we did, and can do just what we did to cope with them, with the advantage of knowing more or less where to go and having a warm, cozy bolt or rivet to shoot for between hooking sections.
Odd to call the SA harder than the FA, but whatever floats your boat. I guess, then, that we wouldn't be able to do the SA, because we were pretty freaked on much of the FA. I don't want to imagine the consequences of having the "lid" actually "pop off." Hehe
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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Amazing that we haven't heard of the "stigma" to which you refer, Russ. Could you publicly fill us in on some specific examples and the "stigma" associated with those poor, wayward individuals?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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"And the SA team confronts exactly the features we did, and can do just what we did to cope with them, with the advantage of knowing more or less where to go and having a warm, cozy bolt or rivet to shoot for between hooking sections."
hmmmmmmmm
unless they go to chip a flake and hook it and it blows, because you had the option to drill in that case, right? what's more, you even just said, a few posts ago, that you did that several times...
..."too"
this isn't even fun anymore-
T O O easy(.)
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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Hey- Why don't you FA guys go do the SA? Talk about badass. Then you could really tell everyone to www.zipit.com
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Gene
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Karl,
A second ascent would answer some questions. But I doubt that the 2nd through 100th would molify the various camps in this never ending saga.
Camps:
#1. Style sucked. Way too long on the wall. Drill fest.
#2. Hardest route on EC. Done by visionaries. Balls of Steel.
#3. Illegal immigrants cross the border. Summons served on rope at base.
#4. Illegal immigrants cross border, teach locals how to climb.
#5. Who cares?
#6. Etc., ad nauseum
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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Slow typing edit: MB says:
Russ, points well taken, and humorous too.
I disagree (of course) with the idea that we could stop to drill any time the "lid was going to pop off." (Hilarious!) We took falls to try what features presented, and when no features presented, we drilled. Simple "ethic."
And the SA team confronts exactly the features we did, and can do just what we did to cope with them, with the advantage of knowing more or less where to go and having a warm, cozy bolt or rivet to shoot for between hooking sections.
Odd to call the SA harder than the FA, but whatever floats your boat. I guess, then, that we wouldn't be able to do the SA, because we were pretty freaked on much of the FA. I don't want to imagine the consequences of having the "lid" actually "pop off." Hehe
All true.... I can see both sides or the FA SA argument.
I bet you guys would float that thing now..... maybe you guys could go do the second ascent and iPhone us pics and beta the whole way up.
oh and earlier, I think Pete was saying something about getting the FaceLifters up there to crack off a few pitchs.... what is he, Kevorkian???? Not to diss or anything, but the crew I'm seeing at the FaceLift ain't exactly the hardest of the hard when it comes to ElCap climbing..... no offense, but most of that crew might have to Grade VI the Nutcracker.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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Matt, no I have never climbed at Rifle, nor do I intend to. Hands on white, feet on black just isn't my style or interest. Using massively travelled sport routes to compare a second ascent of WoS is pointless as well.
Hammer, drill, chisel, iron to pound and pull on is ARTIFICIAL climbing. Props to those bold and brave enough to put themselves into places where free-climbing is not possible, but it still is ARTIFICIAL.
Disagreeing about style/ethics is one thing, but realize that bickering on HOW much metal to use is like 2 grannies bitchin' about each other's needlepoint work. Take it up in person at the retirement home.
Still fun to read about ancient history, though:-)
edit: So who exactly are the lame-ohs bold enough to shite on another's rope and criticize the valley visitors, but too COWARD to publicly 'fess up about it 25 years later?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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dr- T O O funny
mojede- my point was not to equate the T O O, but that there is plenty of stuff to CONSIDER using in either situation, and checking it all out kinda defines the climbing as much as "the climbing" itself.
hey- wtf, get some terrorists/ err, i mean immigrants to do the 2nd, then we could roll all these into the "clash" threads and it would be like freakin' armagedon!
which would totally kick ass, right?
DIE THREAD, DIE!!!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Amazing that we haven't heard of the "stigma" to which you refer, Russ. Could you publicly fill us in on some specific examples and the "stigma" associated with those poor, wayward individuals?
Well, not wanting to drag their dicks through the dirt with a very public outing..... we've seen how well that works...
But, the trenching on Arctic Sea, the drilling on Zenyatta, the drilling on Native Son, the drilling on Lunar Eclipse, and actually tons more that I know of are still worn as a Scarlet Letter by the purps, be it El Cap or even free climbs. It still comes up, decades later, and is not looked upon as anything but a black mark on the people that did the deeds. They are diminished, at least in a few of our eyes, and to some degree, has exiled them from their one time clique.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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come on now richard-
disagree though we may, i would have until now at least said you seemed honest, and that you had an apparent sense of personal integrity.
you more or less called me a liar.
i proved you wrong with your own words.
at least restore your own gleaming self image and admit to it.
i was right.
you were wrong.
(say it?)
where is your charity now?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Thanks, Russ. And "float the route...?" I'm in stitches. The only "floating" that could go on would be helium balloons to "float" my expanded waistline (20 too many lbs now). Too many consecutive days sitting at a computer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Matt, I'll grant you only that the sentence was ambiguous. The grammatical structure could be taken either way.
Philosophical charity is giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt when there is doubt about what he was saying. I think the whole context of what we have ever said about WoS and about other routes makes what I intended to say in that sentence quite clear.
But, just as some nit-pick every tiny detail of WoS, you're going to nit-pick every tiny detail of verbiage to see if there isn't some way to twist clear intentions into something distorted.
For us to call WoS "classic" would be quite outrageous, given these discussions that are nowhere near closure. And I can't imagine ever calling WoS "classic" because I think a "classic" route has to have a LOT more general appeal than WoS will ever have.
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Draino
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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These WOS threads are all the same. No wonder you WOS guys get no respect. All whine and endless nitpick going down the drain.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Pete wrote,
I really wish Mark and Richard would STFU, though.
And you other wankers who diss the route without having seen it first hand, ought to either do the same, or go bloody climb it. We replaced all the bolts and rivets on the first two [legit] pitches, so there are no excuses. I will take a day off climbing to belay anyone who wants to give it a go. I'll even bring him some beer. Right now at Facelift would be the ideal time. Bring the whole posse up, we'll have beers and put some poor unsuspecting bugger on the sharp end, give him a few Leeper hooks, and send him on his way, with lots of shouts of encouragement from the peanut gallery.
I second that. I'll even put up a 1000 dollars of my own money to the team that can repeat the route with out adding anything to it. At facelift. ( other than you Pete ).
Dogtown.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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Matt, I'll grant you only that the sentence was ambiguous. The grammatical structure could be taken either way.
that's only a little bit big of you, sir.
in fact it's not ambiguous, to the contrary it's quite clear. despite whatever you may have meant to say there, what you wrote was "WoS...other classic routes too", and the only 2 ways to interpret that are as 'what you meant to say', and 'not what you meant to say'.
"Philosophical charity is giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt when there is doubt about what he was saying."
regarding philosophical charity, people calling others liars and flamers do not generally get that in direct response to such assertions. specifically in this case, you had even just looked up the instance of your own usage of 'classic' to make that very post, had you not? so you were in fact looking right at the supposedly "ambiguous" grammar to which i was referring, then denying me the very philosophical charity that you went on to berate me for not offering you, when all i had done was to correctly interpret the very words that you had posted...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
i didn't find your words to be "ambiguous" at all.
in fact, the only reason it's (now?) "ambiguous", is that you have since said it was, and claimed that you didn't really mean to say that, so i guess it's some sort of dangling modifier that was only meant to describe a group of climbs including one mentioned in another paragraph, but not the one mentioned immediately before said modifier. right- how ambiguous!
"I think the whole context of what we have ever said about WoS and about other routes makes what I intended to say in that sentence quite clear."
oh ok-
the hardest hooking on el cap-
visionary-
a feat before it's time-
too bold/ too hard/ too committing...
but you would never say "classic"
(how could anyone have not known that you meant "other...too", but not WoS?!?!)
for shame, richard, how about a little 'do unto others' 'n-shit like that? what was your phrase?
oh yeah-
"Sad on you, [Richard]."
edit- ok, you know what? my bad. you are right.
(says so right here: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29949 )
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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there ya have it, dtown says 1k to the skilled SA.
twould be bad ass to get it on film, as long as no one bites the high speed dirt ticket.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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yeah, but it is all in the semantics Munge.... Dog said "add to it", so chipping or enhancing should be fair game, since it "removes" rock from the route.
Kicka ssss... and whoever does it has until FaceLift to pull it off.... UNHOLY!!!!111666
That 1000 clams is as safe as Fort Knox.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 22, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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"...as long as no one bites the high speed dirt ticket."
The price paid for failure on A5, eh?
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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I think everyone is clear what I mean by not adding anything to the route. I’m good for the cash. Make no mistake.
Dogtown.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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^^^
that's rich!
see it's like this:
no new drilled holes...
bwwwwaaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaa
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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So who exactly are the lame-ohs bold enough to shite on another's rope and criticize the valley visitors, but too COWARD to publicly 'fess up about it 25 years later?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111666
No shít...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Matt, I used to try to look through your posts to see if there was anything worthwhile there. At this point I'm just ignoring you.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 22, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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Never mind the SA - I would pay a princely sum to see the shitters outed on this forum...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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"Maybe we could offer inducements to the SA.
There was already cases of beer and wine on the table, now $1,000. I'll pony up another $250 on top of that.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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I'm not joking. If it was done once it could be done twice. So the question remains twenty five years later why has it not? Number one its not a route. (BS) Number two It’s a political nightmare. Number three. Is a political nightmare and the route is HARD as hell, and scary. Number four the route takes to much time and is political nightmare and the route is HARD as hell, and scary. Hey, the sh#t is intimidating, big falls off hooks like this.
1000 bucks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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I checked about 15 WoS threads back and at least Werner and I put up a case of beer each. So we're up to at least two cases of beer (I believe there were more...) and $1250.
Mark and Richard - what did you weigh back then? If that matters then it probably rules out almost everyone posting here from the SA challenge - probably have to recruit someone young, skinny, and ignorant as we all used to be. Surely C4 still has some folks in it that are young, thirsty, and broke.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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Russ,
It seems that the question of "many" keeps coming up and that silence makes it appear that I'm avoiding a problem. At least, that's what I've been told by a couple of people. I'm at the point of not furthering this thread as nothing new or productive is coming from it, but it seems that I must close up this loose end, or at least that's what I'm told.
It seems that to several of our detractors, "many" as simply a "concept" is unacceptable, that "many" needs to be quantified into a hard number in order to be valid. To this end I wrote in the Wings of Plywood thread:
Another hour in the saddle took us to the big city where we blended in with the do-it-yourselfers at a Walmart. There it was, the economy stud finder, $12.95. Before I could pick it up Richard said, "Wait up, partner. This is what we want" as he reached for the Stanley Professional Deep Probe. I protested that the Deep Probe was taking things too far. But Rich said, "Look, a probe's a probe. It doesn't matter what kind of probe we use when it comes to the Probe Count Tally. "Probe Count Tally?" I queried. Then Richard elaborated, "Look, I know this Big Sheet climbing is all new to you, but we're not just dinking around on the backside of our own barn anymore. In these parts when you publish your topo, you give a Probe Count. How deep you probed doesn't mean squat, just how many probes you made. There's a local ethic brewing to go probeless and install T-nuts instead, but many of the hardest routes like the Sheet Of Dreams were built on deep probing."
The problem is that I don't have a number to give you. At the time of WoS, my feeling was that rivets and bathooks were holes. Also, that drilled pits behind shelves and flakes were the little brother to bathooks, and cousin to the trenched head. Knocking a crystal off the back of an edge was not, and is not, a hole (for my viewpoint), nor is it some event that begs to be logged. So, by my thinking, a bathook is akin to a trenched head while knocking a crystal off the back of an edge is akin to knocking a crystal out of the back of a seam to prep a head placement. You may disagree with my thoughts on this, but surely you will agree that my view is within the range of reasonable ethics and in harmony with a significant subset of the big wall population. But how many are posting that knocking a grain out of a seam before placing a head is so bogus that any climb that employs that technique even a few times is to be shunned? Thus, the uproar over the "many" enhancements is being played out because it is thought to be the last good angle of attack, not because it stands on its own legs. But to your point, it is also why I can't quantify "many", because at the time it wasn't a big deal which burned events into my memory. Now if you'd have asked me 20 or 25 years ago, my memory would have sufficed to guess you the number that you and others seem to need. But at this point I can't, and I have no notes to fall back on. Is this ("many") not similar to how every word the President says is recorded and analyzed. Out of the tens of thousands of his words, some extreme group finds a sentence, parses it out, and claims that they have discovered the truth behind the smoke and mirrors. Bologna. So cut me some slack! I don't know what "many" means in terms of numbers. What I do know is that my conscience was clear when we rimmed-out, believing that we set a high standard and were true to that standard.
MS
drljefe/Russ-- Hey- Why don't you FA guys go do the SA? Talk about badass.
I can see the thread now: Forum Topic: WoS TR, First post: Jensen/Smith bag WoS SA. They confirm that the climbing was insanely hard, of high quality, and in the best of style.
LOL
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Mark..... I don't really care about the "many"...... could be 3..... could be 300. It don't matter to me anymore. That post was like 4 years old and just a posted quote. I'm more about the 2nd ascent rant nowadays.... The word "many" just happened to be in that post. I dig what you are saying above though.....
Hell, for all I know, even 4 years ago, I may not have cared. I don't recall being one of the guys hung up on the *exact* numbers or percentages of anything, and I'm not going back through the threads to check. Somebody will probably cut and paste me to death and prove out that I was a "way into the numbers" guy and a giant liar!
Anyway, screw the actual numbers and all that crap. Even if it was one, someone on a white horse will nail you on it anyway.... I'd just produce a mocked up topo at this point with something like 17 enhanced placements clearly marked, measured, and bluprinted and post it Mountian Project along with a gear list. Then we can all just hang out and wait for a trip report.
Side note edit: I really wish you guys would find and use another term to replace "rimming out". That one has been creeping me out for close to 30 years! Probably just me though, and I'll work on that.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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Rimming out .....
Hahahaha LOL
Hahahahaha Never ever heard anyone say that about topping out ....
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Gene
climber
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Sep 22, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Shut up, Mr. Braun. LOL
Too freaking funny.
gm
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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and with the 'rimming out' statement maybe we have come to the end of the thread?
all in favor?
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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Please! but the 1000 bucks still stands.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Good job leading the peace, Russ.
Just a thought for any potential second ascentionists: the 25 year old rivets will have lost most of their strength, resulting in much longer potential falls compared to the FA. Some might need replacement.
Might be something to think about when negotiating the terms for the $1250 (+ beer) prize!
Edit: Munge--> Aye!
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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Russ,
I can't wear thongs. Now I can't rim-out either? What's next?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 22, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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"Matt, I used to try to look through your posts to see if there was anything worthwhile there. At this point I'm just ignoring you."
you mean, you look at me on ST the same way people out there in the real world see your route?
=)
btw, you still owe me an apology, as i in fact did not misrepresent what you wrote (as you claimed), you simply miswrote.
now be a good christian, fess up, and say you're sorry already!
these grudges you always seem to carry are quite unbecoming...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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We weighed about 155/160 pounds when we started the thing. Ahh... the good old days. Actually, I think that Mark still weighs about that. Of course he's got arthritis in his hands now that precludes serious climbing. No kidding; it's a sad thing.
Actually, the rivets were mostly zinc, with a stainless nail. There was most of a thread devoted to speculating on the state of the rivets, and when Randy, Tom, and Pete replaced them on the first two pitches, we found them to be good. We checked the pulled ones, there was no visible corrosion, and they offered good resistance. Also, we didn't use screamers, which are in common use now. So, just screamer the rivets, and you'll be in way better shape than we were.
Go, SA. I'll pony up $250.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 22, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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So we are agreed? Let these fellas have their route. Give back their memories of youth and let them be?
This would be good.
I got this rule, developed after years of sleepless nights and obsessing over tiny mistakes of carpentry. Money, pride are all out the door- if you can't see it, it didn't happen.
This doesn't apply to everything in life, but to the crafts, which are judged by the eye, if you can't see it, it didn't happen.
Sometimes the process is f*#ked. You know how you forced the piece in, you know that the job wasn't done right. Sometimes its because you are looking to close. Take a step back, it may look a lot better.
300 modifications or 3- guys have walked to the base, done a few pitches and can't see the problem, it can't be that bad.
Let these guys have their route. What's it cost? It didn't set a precedent. People didn't head off to glacier point to aid super slabs.
The question should not be of validity of the route, it should be of quality. Is the route a classic or an obscurity and destined to stay that way?
What the hell do I know.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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I plan to do the Second Solo but plan to slam in a bomber 1/4" rawl every 10 feet.
I will have 4 Coeds as ground support in a Tent.
Juan
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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^^^^^^
Bzzzzt... wrongo. Ray was for the most part outside all the time and the Nose was the last straw.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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^^^^^^
Ah Ha!! You admit there was an "outside" and thus also an "inside"!! This proves the conspiracy that has been formerly denied!!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Ray was out long before we got there Deuce.... His name was tarnished to fuk the first time I'd ever heard of him.
When we were there (me, Deuce, the shitters etc) the first thing we did was abolish the inside and outside stuff. Group hug.....
The Valley_Illuminati™™™ are still very much running the show though.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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shucks. I feel like we're having a virtual group hug right now!
Edit: 'stooth, I still meet folks, "outsiders" as it were, who remind me of some act of sharing of information or gear I did back in the mid-80's that made their day. Come to think of it, in '82 I arrived in the Valley with nothing but a chalk bag and shoes and only a week to climb, and it was you, Russ, who loaned me and a buddy a haulbag and some duct-taped Clorox bottles so we could climb the Salathe.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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That's right
The Valley_Illuminati, ... secret, so secret you only few are allowed in.
No rimmers .... ?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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So, we're up to several cases of beer and $1500...
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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Let them have the route? What? It was Thiers in the first place. The beating that these two have taken is unheard of in the history of climbing in the Valley. Oh, Maybe the Wall of the Early Morning Light. Or maybe Growing up. I always thought Harding had a line. But for years it never was in a guide. It was looked at as climbing by hammer and drill. And it was! Please be fare. Give the dudes that. They did not send the route by hammer and drill. I was there as some of you . It was said at first, They are drilling and bat hooking up the slab. ( not) OK, and then later they are chipping and hooking the way up the slab. Other than them, no one knows what they did, But Pete. For the route awaits us all. For me I say. The route is nuts! The work. The training. The time. The falls. The falls. Over and over. You must be joking! One has to want it bad to put up with that kind of shitzz. that’s it from me. You two f*#ks are on your own!
1000 bucks still stands.
Dogtown.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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Okay this whole "surfer attitude" "not-in-with-the-in-crowd" reduction needs a little more perspective. I don't know who was the actual ringleader of the rope pulling and defecation, but the small group of dudes who did the disrespectful act were like the "Spicozi's" of the Camp 4 scene of that time. They were not representative of everyone, or even any kind of major players on El Cap. Sure, I probably laughed over deli beers when I heard of it, like others, and I think some thousands of posts ago, I told Mark and Richard that I now regretted that and considered the act most unfortunate.
Now to say there was a "double standard" because Bridwell did some modification on El Cap and got nothing but respect is also really simplistic. Bridwell earned respect all over the world not just because of how rad he climbed but because of how he conducted himself in relation to the climbing community wherever he visited. He made the effort to meet the locals, show them respect, learn their history, celebrate their achievements, then he went up and sent the big ones, Cerro Torre, Mooses Tooth, etc. Indeed most of the climbers we put on the world class pedestal seem to conduct themselves in that manner, putting up the visionary lines in knowledge, relation and respect of what has come before.
New territory on El Cap in 1982 was still considered world class hallowed ground, not yet the filled-in routine experience of today.
So, had Mark and Richard come to the Valley, climbed some routes, hung with some regulars, then said they were trying out some rad new hooking techniques and were going for a crazy line up the big blank slab they most likely would have had a completely different experience with the locals. But they didn't feel any need to or did not want to relate to the locals and some immature jerks within our community (yes, our friends) reacted with incredible disrespect.
As a valley local of 1982 I am truly sorry they had such a bad time. Sounds like the route was/is hard, and they can enjoy some kind of pride that no one has repeated it.
Rim On Out
Peter
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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Only known image of a Valley Illuminati meeting:
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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"Now to say there was a "double standard" because Bridwell did some modification on El Cap and got nothing but respect is also really simplistic. Bridwell earned respect all over the world not just because of how rad he climbed but because of how he conducted himself in relation to the climbing community wherever he visited. He made the effort to meet the locals, show them respect, learn their history, celebrate their achievements, then he went up and sent the big ones, Cerro Torre, Mooses Tooth, etc. Indeed most of the climbers we put on the world class pedestal seem to conduct themselves in that manner, putting up the visionary lines in knowledge, relation and respect of what has come before.
New territory on El Cap in 1982 was still considered world class hallowed ground, not yet the filled-in routine experience of today.
So, had Mark and Richard come to the Valley, climbed some routes, hung with some regulars, then said they were trying out some rad new hooking techniques and were going for a crazy line up the big blank slab they most likely would have had a completely different experience with the locals. But they didn't feel any need to or did not want to relate to the locals and some immature jerks within our community (yes, our friends) reacted with incredible disrespect. "
Maysho, good post. You're just confirming what others have believed all along. The "controversy" over this route has nothing to do with "ethics" or "purity" or "truth" even and everything to do with their not kissing up to the locals.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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A little background from the last turn of the screw...or was it the turn before that?
MS 10/26/05 To reaffirm, we climbed the entire Great Slab without a single bat hook. If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean. On the Sea, for instance, enhanced meant some kind of hole drilled diagonally behind a flake or into a sloping ledge (at a critical point on Hook or Book, on a 45 degree slope!). Such holes were designed to take the point of a taper-ground Chouinard/Black Diamond Cliffhanger. On Wings of Steel “enhanced” means that we chipped out a crystal at the back of a ledge so the point of a Leeper Narrow could rest at the back the ledge. Typically only a single crystal was chipped out, although on some larger ledges where there was a crust of decomposing rock we chipped out several crystals in order to find solid rock. Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
JeffBenowitz 10/28/05 Whoa M smith. In a lot of people's book every time the drill touches the rock it should be in the hole count. Now I'm starting to understand the "situation." I know it might be semantics, but if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count. Just cause you made a body weight hole, instead of a ½ inch bolt doesn’t change the count. Sure it makes it “harder” and scarier to chip a hook instead of drill a bolt, but either way you are bringing the rock down to your level. How many times did the drill come out? Be honest, or is the number to high to remember? Sorry for lambasting ya John, tar and feather the blokes for all I care.
Russ 10/28/05 I really hate to do it.... this thread is already taking half a day to load, but:
WosS FAist writes: Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
This is the fatal flaw with the "method". If I can't tell which flakes have been ENHANCED, then am I allowed to ENHANCE my hook placements in order to do the route? How do I know I am even doing the correct route? Do I need to spend full days out on lead with a lupe just to get a legitimate ascent? Here is where it is total bullsh#t. I have been hosed by missing bat hook holes on a route and ended up bailing, only to come back to finish the route with a new topo showing the holes. It appears the same will happen to any fool who tries to do a second of WofS, and a good style ascent just may be impossible. Definining the degree of ENHANCEMENT is a silly game. The difference between we only cleaned a little with the drill, and drilling a hole is minimal in my book. I think I actually would prefer a hole with something in it.
Side note: Even though I dig Slater and knew him pretty well, his failures on your route are not giving me a lot of insight into the difficulty. Rob was a very good wall climber, but not the best around. He had problems with other routes and multiple tries to ascend, but, and after this new info, maybe it was not a Slater problem at all on this particular route. It just might have been the route itself.
Double side note™™™:
Really glad you guys are around for this dialog. Much appreciated!
Deuce 10/29/05 Let's summarize:
We're talking about a route put up in an era long ago, which was controversial at the time, but since then had faded into obscurity along with its original controversy, until recently.
We have two of the original ascentionists in the conversation.
One of them, MSmith seems quite honest and sincere, but also completely oblivious to the fact that the repeated use of chiseled hooks and the extensive use of bolts on a El Cap first ascent may have caused some consternation among the experienced practicioners of the sport at the time.
The other, madbolter1, seems indignant that the world hasn't been astonished as his prowess of his ascent of El Cap, and considers any critique on his route as "ridiculous and uncharitable," and has dissed in so many words some of the top aid climbers in history, namely Jim Bridwell and Jim Beyer, presumably to enhance his own reputation of being more skilled than them. By repeatedly bringing in his religious beliefs (which in reality has nothing to do with this conversation except that it may have added a week to their time on the route), he seems to make some connection of his religion with the public perception of his route, feeling persecuted on both counts (perhaps showing a hint of a Jesus complex?).
Because it seems apparent that the ascentionists haven't climbed too many routes other than those that have a significant "reputation" of top difficulty, which they repeated with what seems like the sole purpose to gain credibility for themselves and for their ability to publicly announce to the world that their route was harder, it seems difficult to ascertain that these climbers are climbing purely for their own "personal experience" as claimed. In fact, it seems like the sole motive is to convince the world that Wings of Steel was somehow ahead of its time, despite the fact that they admit enhancing the natural features considerably.
Finally, at the time and perhaps even more so now, the standards of aid climbing has been to climb massive walls in as pure style as possible, meaning using natural features; if no natural features are available, to use a rivet rather than chipping, bathooking, chisseling, or otherwise altering the stone in a short-term manner of thinking, a fact these ascentionists seem completely unwilling to accept, even 20 years after the event.
The first ascentionist's lifelong insistence on promoting their actions as a high standard simply because of the resulting difficulty of their manufactured route seems to suggest that they therefore feel deserving of accolades as pioneers, instead of what it finally really appears to be, a trio of inexperienced climbers trying to make a name for themselves.
RJ 4/27/06 The answer is simple. I quote the book: "We used 151 hooks to ascend the route. All but five were Leeper narrows. We placed 205 copperheads, most of which were #0, #1, and #2."
MS 11/21/05 Ammon wrote "Exactly, what do you consider a bat-hook hole? They are there. Who put them in?"
A bat hook hole is a hole you drill in blank rock to place a hook. Pretty straightforward. Perhaps the definition gets tricky if the hole is at the top of narrow ledge or on a sloping shelf, but there are no such holes on WoS.
Bringmedeath 4/27/06 Here is what I see...
-13 pitches... topo shows most rivets/bolts on first 9 pitches except the 13th traverse.
-First 9 look to be like 1000 feet or under???
-Probably at least 120 holes in first 9???
-1000 divided by 120=8.3 feet per hole
Now I can drill a hole on a slab pretty far apart... at least 6 feet. So... umm... how many natural placements in first 9 would you say?
Gotta be careful with those averages. Every time we placed two rivets in a row, that adds another natural placement between rivets somewhere else. Yup, there are some rivet ladders. That means there are some long sections of hooking.
Keep in mind also that the hole count includes anchor bolts, the count of which is.... 27 or 28. Also, our pitches were long. We figured right at 1,200 feet of climbing up the slab.
Anyway, if the hole count is being used to suggest a rivet ladder yet again, welll... see the last several hundred posts on these three threads.
RJ 4/30/06 At this point, I believe that anybody who can call the route a "botch" in the face of the bathead issue cannot be convinced of anything positive about the route no matter what. A reasonable person is going to say, "Crap, so they used ten or so batheads in a 1200 foot slab. Is that make or break?" It's just very hard for me to see how anybody can honestly make a big deal about this "revelation" about one of the many "imperfections" of the route. Surprise, guys, but PROBABLY your parents had sex after your were born too (along with their actual, genuine indiscretions). They were probably still reasonably good parents, which is all any parent can hope to be. "Imperfection" doesn't mean "botch," and it certainly doesn't mean or imply "rivet ladder" or "POS".
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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Whoa, heavy.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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Oh No! Steve's busting up our group hug!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Steve has SA written all over him!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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GC wrote: "Maysho, good post. You're just confirming what others have believed all along. The "controversy" over this route has nothing to do with "ethics" or "purity" or "truth" even and everything to do with their not kissing up to the locals."
hmmmm...
anyone care to guess why the valley is not the home of bolted cracks, sport chimneys, and manufactured routes? it's cause of the traditions of these same locals, those you'd now so easily diss, those who took their responsibility as stewards seriously.
just what do you all think "self regulated" means?
just as peter said, coulda been handled better by some, but also coulda been handled better by them as well.
either way, can't be undone, hasn't been redone, everyone chiming in disagrees w/ someone, may just as well go have a cold one,
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Bottom line, if Ammon spent 25 minutes in the saddle trying to figure out where to place the next hook then that means all the claims of 'enhancements' and 'enhancements as part of the hole count' are complete bullsh#t. Other than the holes they filled with fixed pro, there's clearly no discernable sign of their passage over the stone. You can dicker over what they left behind in the way of fixed pro, the rest is less than irrelavant and after 25 years the state of all the micro edges is likely about the same as when they did the FA.
Beer and 1500 bucks on the table, but now that the SA has been blown into a much harder effort than the FA it's hard to see how any of you mutherf*#kers could ever succeed. Or is setting the stage for why an SA team might fail the idea - that it's so much harder now? I've heard some good ones about SAs in the past, but this 'harder' ploy is a new twist even for me.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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^^^
wha,,,?
that's horse sh#t right there, that's what that is!
forget WoS for a sec here- so you say that if i can sculpt a route somewhere in some way that you cannot tell i did it, it's ok?
i take it back, i am being offensive to horse sh#t...
(edit- and from a logical perspective, all it could mean would be something about that particular spot, and nothing about any other spot, so your point is without merit)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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If a pea gravel stone of crystals over nine pitches is 'sculpting' then every route on El Cap is sculpted. Talk about group denial. What a frigging joke - you keep hanging on to that story as the odds are good you wouldn't be able to hold onto the hook pictured above.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Joseph..... 25 minutes ain't that long. I've spent up to a couple of HOURS trying to get a placement to stick before. And I'm sticking by my SA is harder claim, and backing it up with real experiences. What are you basing your statements on?
Ammon just might have been off route.... it is possible you know, especially in the microscopic realm of extreeeeeme slab hooking.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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not to drag him into it, but maybe the real question ought to be how long it'd have taken ammon if he'd been willing to "micro-enhance" (wtf is that anyway?) his placements w/ a flat drill bit
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Russ, and I'm sticking with that after 25 years of weathering the 'route' in all likelyhood displays essentially the exact same hooking opportunities as the FA party were presented with. That and P1 & 2 have been retrofitted with new fixed pro and the pro that was pulled to do that was still in basically good shape, doubly so if you used screamers which Mark and Richard didn't. The fact that the fixed pro exists on the route simply means you'd only have to do the comparable number of hook moves between clips that they did minus the drilling off tenuous hooks. Not buying it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Mark and Richard - STFU!
STEVE GROSSMAN - YOU PATHETIC WANKER! You have NO F*#KIN' IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
Grossman - Please. PLEASE. PLEASE!
Shut the f*#k up. You are an idiot. You have no f*#king clue what you are talking about. Come to Facelift and kiss my middle aged lard-assed ass! Get your f*#kin' aiders and hooks out, and go climb the route. You make me f*#kin' puke! You are pathetic piece of sh#t.
So there. Bite me. I'll be around tomorrow night. We'll drink beer and talk about it.
Mark and Richard, STFU.
Sheesh.
Russ - cool beans on the ledge! Mucho appreciado! 400 nights here I come.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Someone just emailed me saying; 1000 bucks is not worth the trip to the ER.
Oh, sh#t it’s all good fun. No?
Pete, go to sleep you got work to do. Sh#t,
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:21am PT
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Holy frig! I think I was around 3 or 4 2-4's of beer when I tried, and it wasn't enough to get me to climb that sick route. I saw the grand, and the $250, but I think I missed the other $250.
Are we at $1250 or $1500? Too rad! Send it!
Did I mention Steve Grossman is a TOTAL DICKHEAD? Bite me, Steve.
Dog - was at the Facelift, ok? You pay $20 for a glass, you get to refill it as many times as you like. Me and buddy split the glass, 11 fills tonight. So I'm under two bucks a drink, get it? The above posts come with the enclosed caveat.
[buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurp]
But Steve's still a dickhead.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:22am PT
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Joseph, you just ain't getting it. Maybe in some other thread, some other time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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"micro-enhance" (wtf is that anyway?)
WTF "micro-enhance" has been detailed ad nauseum - it's the sideways removal of a sub-1mm crystal from an existing horizontal micro-ledge resulting in about a pea gravel stone accumulation of crystals over nine pitches.
Some here must be scale-challenged in that mountain-out-of-a-molehill sort of way. The indignation of ethical, if not near-philosophical, purity on display that has turned that micro-crystal removal into "drilling" has been almost as amusing as hearing about the various circumstances under which it's o.k. to remove varying macro-volumes of stone from routes. Well, I take that back, that does take a back seat to the all the long-running non-WoS arguments on which of a variety of chunks of metal are valid to fill a hole with.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Hopefully this won't ignite another bout of all-caps rebuttals, but we're touching on one of the foundations of the strict wall ethic that we all lived by in the 80's.
For example, any time a drill was used, the ethic demanded that the hole should to be filled with a solid machine head rivet that could actually take short falls.
The core of our ethic was that we believed that it was our responsibility to create a good climb that could be repeated without artificial horror.
That's also why trenching heads was verbotten. The cable of a fixed trenched head in a corner quickly get trashed, leaving only the option to clip the fixed head with only a few strands of cable left, or to trench again.
When Slater climbed a section on the Sheep Ranch by hammering z-macs with 1/2" tieoffs flush to the wall, he got a lot of grief, because subsequent ascents had a choice to either: 1. spend 20 minutes cleaning out the rotten tie-off only to be able to use a slightly better 1/16" cable tie-off, or 2: clip the rotten sling, now making what was once A3 (with the full-strength 1/2" tie-off that would have held a short fall) into solid A4 (with the now rotten barely body-weight 1/2" tie-off).
Any one of us had plenty of opportunities to create desperately hard A5+ routes for subsequent climbers, full of hidden and clever tricks that only we knew about because we created them. But with the ethic we had in mind, it was actually quite hard to find anything harder than A4+.
I'm not making the claim that that applies to this route, because to comment on this particular aspect, one would need to have some direct experience with a particular climb, but it might help shed some light on what Russ is correctly talking about in that some second ascents can be harder than the first.
But you can be damn sure that a route put up by Cole, Grossman, or Shipley will have no such tricks, and the second ascent will always be much easier because the drilled anchors will all be bomber.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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[
I got your enhancement you all. 1000 bucks.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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WoooHooo!!!!1111666
Pete is on a "truth_serum"™ rant spree! Nice work!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:39am PT
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Good comments, John.
From what I can tell, WoS FA'ists did a different type of enhancement. Not much, but they did. They have been very forthright in their enhancements, and have NEVER tried to hide of minimize what they had done. If anything, I feel they were "too honest". If you wonder what I mean, look at the first post in this thread - sheesh.
Almost tiresome.
But the enhancements done on WoS are kinda unique, I don't know of any other El Cap route that did that kinda stuff. If you want to argue, the amount of grams of rock they removed to climb WoS is rather less than you used to climb Flight of the Albatross, non? And your route is only 2/3 of the crag, right? So isn't WoS more "valid" than Albatross? Are knott micro-crystal enhancements more valid than rivets? I don't know.
Incidentally, Kevin is soloing Flight of the Albatross right now, which is rather more than a bunch of pathetic wankers on this forum are doing this very minute.
Oh, so we're editing while we post, eh? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! I've had 5.5 beers at Facelift, what's yous' guys excuse???
"But you can be damn sure that a route put up by Cole, Grossman, or Shipley will have no such tricks, and the second ascent will always be much easier because the drilled anchors will all be bomber."
Done 'em all, emphatically concur. WoS is a shift in the paradigm. Not everyone gets it.
It's also true that you can be a total DICKHEAD, yet still put up a really good route on El Cap.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:42am PT
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Russ and John, I think that both your points actually dovetail here.
Russ, I would say that any SA team should feel completely free to do the exact same micro-enhancing as the FA team did - removing sub-1mm crystals from horizontal micro-edges would be fair game, drilling a hole or inward indentation of any kind for a hook point wouldn't be. From all the descriptions of the route here I'd say that WoS isn't like many or any other routes around and I can't see why the reality of micro-hooking up a featureless slab should be considered comparable to climbing an overhanging wall. I also don't think it's a repeatable 'line' and never could be - only a path of travel demarced by the fixed pro that now exists.
That doesn't make it any less of a 'route' or accomplishment for me, just a very different sort of route than we commonly associate with climbing. From where I sit, anyone that can hook their way up a featureless, high-angle, nine-pitch line without drilling any actual holes for the hook points gets a big high-five from me. Very different and not my gig, but as valid as any other climbing in my book.
[ Edit: Pete, I agree with you that this is just a very different beast. I mean A4-5 slab aiding? WTF, again, not my deal but I don't see how it can be considered not a valid climbing form given all the other outlandish things climbers do. ]
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:43am PT
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^^^
Hi Pete
Agree with that first part.
But in terms of Flight of the Albatross, the hole count is something on the order of 75 holes, way more than I was happy with (and I've said that in print), but way less than WOS's 145 hole count, of course.
By the way, most people don't do the original start, which heads up the previously unclimbed dirty cracks on the right side of the "heart". Tell your buddy good luck for me!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:45am PT
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I know, I'm just jerkin' your chain. Wanna climb to the Canoe sometime, pretty cool place. Hard to believe that thing is still stickin' to the wall! I hope you put bolts above it, didn't you???
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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Pete- you haven't been up there yet? Alba's feeling a bit dissed, you've climbed nearly the whole stone by now, no?
Yeah, that Canoe is going for the big ride someday. Don't place any gear behind it!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 11:33am PT
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When you have 205 copperheads and 140 plus holes in 9 pitches means there's nothing there. Contrived bullsh'it in my book.
In my book that translates into a piece of sh'it route.
Now don't anybody wet their pants because that's my own personal opinion of a route/line and has absolutely nothing to do with the person/persons involved doing such a thing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Clearly there's nothing there. There would be a conventional route there if there was. But this isn't a 'conventional' route by any means; nor is there a move-for-move or hook-for-hook repeatable route there either. The question isn't whether it meets the standard of a conventional route, it's whether a featureless slab could or should be climbed. Mark and Richard proved you could climb one. I'd say the only questions still open for debate is whether such features should be climbed - i.e. is it a valid climbing form - and could it have been climbed better, cleaner, or faster by anyone else. But then the history of climbing, the Valley, and El Cap is filled with arguments about what could and should be climbed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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But Richard fell madly in love with the shiny white tar baby...
More matter and less art, I say.
Look at the first quote in my last post. Outright lie because of ten batheads not to mention the many splendored enhancements, however many of those there are. I certainly was able to see them high on the route without any difficulty.
Back to the holecount issue soon.
Pete- What is the ugliest part of your body???
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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That's bullsh'it too wes.
A couple of jackasses fuked with them and suddenly everyone else gets lumped into the same boat with them.
That's why this whole thing is such bullsh'it from the start.
There's a lot more that meets the eye than the usual stupid half ass ed bullsh'it that is translated into words on this forum from peoples mental speculations about what happened.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Steve: Ugliest part? Tongue. Last night. Too much beer. I apologize to you, Steve. Gotta watch that. I should STFU myself.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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I was PWD, Werner! Very dangerous! I was kinda afraid when I opened the post this morning, wondering WTF I might have written when I was ranting. Geeez.
Didn't see you at Facelift last night. Were you there? I was the idiot at the back standing next to the beer spigot all night, while everyone else was sitting politely and watching the [very good but too long by about 30%] slide shows.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Nah wasn't there Pete, don't drink.
I was too busy with my duties at the Valley Illuminati meeting .....
P.S. don't tell anyone, it's a ultra secret.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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Was that held by the free or aid masons...?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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Pete, if 5.5 beers over the course of an evening gets you that gurgled.... and for a Canadian no less..... you need to do some more practicing.
Wes edit: I will leave it to ya'll to resolve this.
Thank fuk for that.... Thinning of the clueless herd might move this along some.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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You guys could have just waxed their windshields.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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it seems to me that all of the defenders of WoS don't really grasp some very simple concepts:
the amount or rock removed during the intentional enhancement is not what sets the precedent.
the regular and repeated act of intentional enhancement is what sets the precedent.
the amount of rock removed is subjective, and different criteria, rationale, or circumstances would serve as justification for another party to follow in these footsteps and apply their own subjective interpretation to what level of chipping would be appropriate and acceptable.
(and true- nobody else followed and in a more heavy handed fashion, chipped a route up the slab, but would that have happened if WoS had been accepted or embraced? we can never know.)
is it the point that the route is hard or scary?
is it the point that the route, as climbed, required hooking skills-
is it the point that it may be hard (even very hard) to see the chipped placements* ?
(people continue to shout these justifications from the roof tops, let us all agree to accept them as fact. they are not in question. what IS in question is whether or not they are the measure of the route)
perhaps, to many, the point is that 'the chipping option' was in the quiver from the start:
1)hook
2)can't hook -> chip and hook
3)can't chip and hook -> drill
(it was even noted in this thread that more than once, failed points of "enhancement" were then drilled for a rivet, which some might argue, illuminates the decision tree)
so the rock required some drilling and some alteration to be climbed, and other than drilling and alteration, offered not much else. that's probably pretty much what everyone else saw there as well- primarily drilling and alteration was going to be necessary to ascend the great slab, and in seeing that, they all walked away, leaving the slab unclimbed- ergo, prevailing ethic/ community standard.
richard and mark believe(d) their skill and desire was the difference which allowed this passage, but they also were willing to drill and alter to the degree necessary, where apparently all others at the time were not.
it seems to me that many believed then (and still believe now) that what actually made the difference was this willingness to intentionally alter the rock itself as needed in order to gain passage, whether with a rivet, a bolt, or a chip that one cannot easily see.
"_ did the same thing on __ route!"
"you can't see it, go climb the route for yourself!"
"[we chipped in a way that was way less visually apparent than the way that others were chipping]"
now it's also true that they apparently did whatever they could to minimize their impact, and that the route requires skill and courage. there are sections of continuous difficult hook moves w/ poor protection. however, they achieved this having made the choice to chip regularly and drill as needed, which others felt/feel was the more significant truth.
even now, richard, mark, and/or their advocates revel in the fact that others have been turned away by WoS (to some this fact validates the route more than anything else, while to some it's evidence of something else). in the view of many, they don't seem to consider the glaring possibility that others are turned away (or turned off) at least in part because they are unwilling to use the same quiver, unwilling to use the same tactics, unwilling to accept the same rationalizations ("just a micro-gram", "you can't see it", "a pea gravel of rock in total", etc.)
i have stated many times my belief that it's simply invalid to come back 25 or 30 yrs later to hash out these issues with whomever happens to be around. this is a historical question and the route exists in the context of the time it was done and the community standards at that time, as enforced, however imperfectly or arbitrarily, by the community at that time.
there may be some who agree with you, that's fine.
there will also be some people who do not.
you did the route. what happened on the route happened, and what happened off the route happened.
you can't go back for a re-do.
was the community fair to you?
it really doesn't matter.
it was those same attitudes that protected the rock itself in yosemite (at lest to some degree) from what has happened in so many places around the world. in fact those attitudes were in no small part a reaction to what has happened to the rock in so many places around the world, and those attitudes were borne from a desire to aspire to something better, to progress, to improve, to innovate, to continually raise the bar.
it was those same attitudes that made yosemite the cradle of north american rock climbing. argue if you like with the way you were treated 25+ years ago, the sad yet simple fact is, that's how many loose knit communities self regulate.
unfortunate though some of the behavior directed your way may have been, that poor behavior does not in itself validate your tactics, your approach, or anything else. all these disagreements are just that, disagreements. there are people who disagree with you, such is life.
* IMO "micro-enhancements" is a clever but transparent use of 'spin' in the bigwall vernacular, it's equally accurate to say "a smallish but very intentional chip or alteration to the rock, without which the hook move cannot be done, and there can be no passage, unless we drill a legitimate hole". by the same standards a free climber could carve and sculpt out just enough of a climb to ascend, and in that case, most would agree that even 15-20 or so instances in 9 pitches was a travesty.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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I can no longer read long posts like those of Matt, Mark and Richard. I haven't read any of Richard's stuff over the last few days.
Russ - the ledge is SUPERB! And yeah, I'm a lightweight. But remember, that was after climbing all day with no food since breakfast, no supper, and I think one power bar during the day. Oh yeah, and not enough water. Sheesh.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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As aid climbers are clanking their way to the wall with more metal than used to make a bicycle, are they thinking about the aesthetics in saving the rock?
OR, are they just going out to conquer the dam things by whatever means that THEY deem necessary--because that's why the BROUGHT the metal to the rock in the first place?
Just wondering on the aid climbing egotistical mentality here...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Pete: hopefully it will be a little easier to use than the twisted hulk you sent down here!
Working on a few things for next time. I'll keep you posted.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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I have just read Matt's post and can come to only one conclusion......Matt's the one who shat on their ropes !!!
Cracko
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Matt, point for point that is more twisted logic than I've seen in a post in a long time.
Overall, its relentless underlying drive and tone is the twisting distortion of the sideways removal of a sub-1mm crystal into 'drilling'. As obfusticating inflation goes, that ranks right up there the Big Bang. And the reason your entire tact is disingenuous (as are all the 'ultrapure' ethical arguments) is because, given any two hooks of your choice, could you or anyone else (then or now) aid a line up that slab any other way. Are you really claiming someone could have then, or now, hook their way up that slab without such tactics? Because if you are I'm calling complete bullshit here and now - no need to do another post.
The questions I listed above are valid ones that can be answered; maybe try taking a crack at them.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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so you are then arguing for no standard whatsoever?
isn't the opposite of what you are saying that the rock is better left for someone who can climb it without bringing it down to their own level?
wrt me, you, or anyone else and any two hooks, what about a climber in the future with tools we are not yet familiar with?
when you rule out purity as unrealistic, aren't you then are forced to accept any (and therefore every) version of what divergence is acceptable?
and in the decades old context of WoS, clearly the local community, who were the standard bearers and the protectors of the resource (right or wrong) felt at the time that the tactics available were not adequate. all i am really saying about WoS is that we cannot go back and review their collective judgement, and in fact the example set by the reaction to WoS may have even had positive impacts upon the collective psyche of climbers in general, who knows...
one other point-
what climbers may resort to when desperate may not always be equal to what the same climbers may aspire to. that does not nullify the aspiration, nor the collective goal of continuously raising the standard rather than lowering it (or seeing it lowered by others). that point goes to the widespread pointing at their gear list, which to many illuminates what they were prepared to do. call it irrelevant if you like, but clearly it's not irrelevant for everyone.
btw the natural extrapolation of your arguments would lead directly to bolt ladders or chipped lines up every rock face that nobody in a given era could ascend without those tactics, which is the opposite of visionary, IMHO.
edit-
btw if you don't believe in the Big Bang, that's all well and good, but do keep in mind it's a scientific theory, so we can say that it explains or agrees with observable data, and as far as i know, it has yet to be scientifically disproven. (speaking of endless multiple St threads from hell, where are you on evolution?)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Oh, I believe in the Big Bang inflationary universe, what I don't believe is you detractors consistently inflating the sideways removal of a sub-1mm crystal to "drilling". Never will. And hey, I'm more LNT than you're ever going to meet today, hell, I still don't use chalk.
What I'm saying is that you can't compare the tactics required to aid a featureless slab with those of a conventional route - it's an utterly pointless exercise. And the 'wait for a better or better equipped climber' hash again fails the 'scale challenge'. We're already talking micro-scale, what else would you suppose that future climber be equipped with other than sharpened hooks? Van der Waals pads? Adhesive pads? Or, now that we have 36v lithium batteries, maybe a couple of sloppy silicone rimmed, pump-assisted suction cups? If that's what your conjecture is then the whole discussion is pointless as folks will just be free 'climbing' up the thing in vacuum or Gecko shoes. But if you leave high tech out of it then you're left with hooks and, again, are you then suggesting that anyone could do it differently or any better? Ammon certainly didn't appear to think so.
The logical weakness in your argument is the fundamental attempt to paint this route as just another climb when nothing could be further from the truth. If what your and others' argument boils down to is "no one should climb that slab" so be it, but at least be honest and just say that. If that's not your argument then the question of who could climb it differently and better given two hooks of their choice stands.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
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It's all pretty simple if you strip away all the micro-analyzing. (Short post here, Pete.)
We found a line (yes, there's an actual line there; it's not just work straight up the slab). We were willing to drill a certain amount to get up it, as has been EVERY FA team on the big stone, including the prophets of purity. We were willing to "enhance" some, as has been EVERY FA team on the big stone.
If you deny this fact, Steve, then I cry BS until you produce a COUNT approaching the detail we have. Until then, you're just blowing smoke.
EVERY FA team "enhances" at AT LEAST the level of impact we did. "Intentional sculpting" is a BS term to magnify our "atrocity" beyond what everybody else does. If you've used the pick of your hammer ONCE to take out a wayward crystal in a copperhead corner, or "intentionally" use a beak itself to break off an offending edge before driving it, then you have done EXACTLY the level of "intentional sculpting" we did.
ANY team (with the sack) can do the route in the same style we did it. Like with EVERY route, some new drilling will be done. It won't take much. The flakes are there.
And anybody talking about the supposed "purity" of the 80's is living in fantasy land. I don't want to hear about "aspire!" We "aspired" too! What was DONE is what matters. All the rest is spin and BS.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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joe-
i disagree
you expect innovation to be limited to things you can imagine
that's the fundamental flaw in your own line of reasoning
the FACT that i cannot tell you how it might be climbed does NOT mean it cannot be climbed
what's more, you want your judgement (or mine) to matter, which removes the climb from it's true historical context
MB-
you can't go back.
now you want to define 'purity' as it was in the 80s, but you want to trump the judgement of people in the park in the 80s with that of the people on the www in 2009...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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"the FACT that i cannot tell you how it might be climbed does NOT mean it cannot be climbed
"
Weak, Matt, very weak...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
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MB - So you say you followed pattern tangible enough to be called a line. Ok, are you also claiming that that line is in any way repeatable hook-move-for-hook-move; that had you done an SA a week later you w/could have used (or even found) the same edges?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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"EVERY FA team "enhances" at AT LEAST the level of impact we did. "Intentional sculpting" is a BS term to magnify our "atrocity" beyond what everybody else does. If you've used the pick of your hammer ONCE to take out a wayward crystal in a copperhead corner, or "intentionally" use a beak itself to break off an offending edge before driving it, then you have done EXACTLY the level of "intentional sculpting" we did. "
Bears repeating. It's more than obvious that many, many 2nd, 3rd, and even 25th ascents of some route have involved as much or more damage to the stone as was done in WOS. The Shield headwall didn't get to accept sawed off angles on the first ascent. Every new El Cap route has drilling and banging. What's really so different here.
And Matt's argument is flawed because the community at the time really didn't know WHAT the FA party was doing or not doing so their actions and judgements could have been flawed from the start. Now that we are getting details, it's time for a SA party to check the condition and cry BS or Bravo
Peace
Karl
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Joe, what I'm saying is that there are patterns of flakes up there. You probably can't find our route "flake by flake," but we did find "lines of flakes," where the density of usable flakes was higher than several feet to either side. It's subtle, and we often hooked left or right then up, then to the side again. It's not just "straight up." You have to look ahead to try to avoid cul-de-sacs.
Which, by the way, is one way in which the existing route makes things easier. Even if you don't have a great feel for the subtlety, at least you can look up and see basically where you're supposed to go. You don't have to worry about cul-de-sacs, as we did. The idea that we just went basically straight up, drilling merrily as we forged UP, is patent and obvious crap, as even a look from the ground will show.
Furthermore, viewed on a more typical scale, there are copperhead seams and even cracks on the route, we pieced these together. The existing topos "macro" this to a large degree, but the route actually wanders on the slab a great deal. Again, it's not just straight up.
Regarding the "purity" of what was actually DONE in the 80's, there are lots and lots of honest posts at this point from the people that were there and putting up the classics, so the story isn't conjecture. It was common to be far more heavy-handed than we were, as the SA will show (if there ever is one).
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PhotogEC
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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the FACT that i cannot tell you how it might be climbed does NOT mean it cannot be climbed
Matt - just a clarifying question: based on this, is the extrapolation that you're against aid climbing in general? By this statement, are you invalidating all aid lines, as, in theory, someone, eventually, could do any given line free, without the need for drilling, driving pins, etc.?
To be clear, I'm completely new to this discussion, but utterly fascinated by the religious zeal with which it's being argued on both sides. Just trying to understand the extent of your intent with your statement.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Russ, at this point there's no more detailed topo than what you see in the guides. Well, at least in all the moving over the decades, the location of it, if it exists, appears lost to posterity. Perhaps Mark's grandchildren will open some dusty, old box someday and say, "What's this bunch of chicken-scratches?"
Meanwhile, back on the ranch....
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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We are all going to hell and Messner and Twight
Will be there to torment us for eternity...
Bwahahahaaaaa!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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On the topo front, actually it's sort of ironic how it's all played out. After all, the published topos are supposed to be based upon and an accurate representation of what the FA team submits. So, you can have as much confidence in the published topos as you have confidence that they are an accurate representation of what we submitted.
I, for one, thought that we submitted the second pitch as A5; but sight-unseen, Meyers wasn't willing to put that rating, so the pitch appeared in first publication downgraded to A4. By modern standards, maybe it is, although you can go for an 80-foot ride down that slab (caught by the anchor) if the last hook before that bolt waaaay up there blows.
Oh, well, the published topos should be enough to get the job done. After all, the route is basically just a glorified rivet ladder.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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Meyers rated the climb A4, but gave that pitch A5. At least in my book he did. Not sure if it's a first pub tho.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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How close are the micro-flakes?
What percentage break off and become useless? If you put a rivet in when no viable flakes could be found, is the SA allowed to do the same?
Seems to me that somebody needs to recruit a 90lb wonder-kid to lead this thing. The less force on the hook the better.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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Well, for 2 large and an F-load of beer, and at least one decent bottle of Italian wine,
it's knott too much of a stretch to think that a starving dirtbag (starving = light) could
be enticed by the bounty - knott to mention the glory - and to suddenly become the
only person presently qualified to spew about the route (priceless).
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Seems to me a strip of duct tape say 3 ft long holds body weight.
Juan
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Not to date myself... but the only guide I have is the Yellow Meyers Guide.... and it ain't in there. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen a topo?
scan and email please..... anyone?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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The flakes vary in distance apart. Sometimes we would second loop a flake to reach another and then would top-loop from that one to reach another. It's hard to describe. Ask Pete, who was most recently on it.
We had something like a 30% hook failure rate. Most of the time pulling off a flake left other possibilities to try, most of which worked. You do reach these short blank "bands" (farther than you can reach past) which is generally where the rivets are. Of course it's possible that new rivets will need to go in. But I would expect falls to be taken before the SA team decides that a potential candidate "isn't viable." We were hooking stuff as small as dimes.
Also, I think that some are magnifying the time that has passed, using this to say that the route is now "very different" from the rock we climbed, as though the flake situation has entirely changed. First, on a geologic time scale, even 30 years is nothing. Second, from the base I could see a couple of the initial flakes we hooked, and they are still there, looking entirely usable as before. Bottom line is that the flakes we hooked withstood some amazing concentrated force. Our body weight was focused down onto a tiny point, and top-looping especially makes that force somewhat outward as well. The flakes that got us up were ON THERE, and 27 years just isn't going to have much of an effect. This whole idea is yet another tempest in a teapot. The flakes are there.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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We had something like a 30% hook failure rate. Most of the time pulling off a flake left other possibilities to try, most of which worked.
Are you saying that your hook failures pulled off a flake thereby created the enhancements you were able to use for upward progress?
Things that make you say "hmmmmm".
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Thanks for the topo!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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No, what I'm saying is that pulling off one flake left other flakes to try. Usually, one of the remaining available candidates would work. As we climbed, we did get better at figuring out which flakes would more likely hold.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 23, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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You are saying you pulled material off the rock? And that you did it with a tool - in this case a hook?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Hey Pete, please post more often while drunk! You're slaying us up here in WA!
Love to see what you'd write after 12 beers...
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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wow, who knew that a 13 pitch variation could warrant so much attention! I've read just a few of the threads and can clearly tell that I don't have the tenacity to sift through all of this information. Are there cliff notes available for the WOS web saga? For what its worth, this is what I know about the route. In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. I don't remember a whole lot about it other than we started at 5:30 am and were on top of the fifth pitch by early afternoon...there were a few whippers to be had, the z-macks and rusty bat heads were frustrating. If I remember correctly, there was some sporty/tricky hooking sections, but nothing that I would consider crazy.
Calder
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Thank you, good sir!
You wouldn't happen to recall who the lads were that repeated Winds of Change, would you?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:42am PT
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Hey Calder bro
Thanks for that.
"In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. "
Do you recall which way you went on the first 2 pitches (topo is above on this page)
Makes a big difference I hear
Peace
Karl
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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Steve: Sorry, I am not aware of any climber who seconded Winds of Change.
Karl: Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well. I couldn't say with certainty, but after looking at a few slides from our trip, I think that we climbed the right variation. Tim Wagner led the first two pitches.
Calder
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Calder- Do you recall anything resembling A-5 on the second pitch? Anything like six consecutive hook placements on the pitches that you did?
Have you ever seen Jensen's book? What interested you guys about this particular route and why didn't any of you return to complete it?
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Steve,
We found no A5 (rip whole pitch and die type stuff) on the pitches we climbed. I would say the climbing had sections of solid A3 (many body weight placements with a 50' fall potential). Like I said, there were some sporty sections of hooking, six in a row doesn't seem out of line. Tim led the second pitch and fell 30-40' and pulled a rivet or two on his way down, but didn't get hurt. The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill, there were lots of z-macs and some god awful rusted out bat heads.
Never read the book. Just hung out in the valley long enough to become intrigued with history behind the route. Kevin and I were tent bound for a few weeks climbing in the Kitchatna Spires and started talking about going up on the route, mostly out of curiosity.
As far as going back to complete the route? I can't speak for the others, but I felt that my curiosity was satisfied.
Calder
Have you ever seen Jensen's book? What interested you guys about this particular route and why didn't any of you return to complete it?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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A thousand or so uninformed posts later, it seems somewhat unfortunate in this case we can't also make text blink and strobe as well:
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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This route was done before the PRS (Personalized Rating System) confused everything so badly. What did you guys do with the failed Zeemac crap rivets and batheads once they failed on you? Stick a hook in the hole? Did you guys even have a bolt kit for a one day attempt?
These gents hauled 1070 pounds of gear and supplies and took almost three weeks to get to your highpoint. Check out the provisions and gear list that they took for this route. Thirty days to the Aquarian and then nine more to Rim Out!
Ever seen such a mess?
Healy- A tiny but exciting Bwanadimple only needs to be big enough to accomodate the tip of a narrow Logan hook. With your extensive aid climbing experience...that doesn't change the basic quandry even though we all know that these guys are your buddies.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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The first two pages may give PTPP some ideas for his next camping trip...
Or maybe they already did.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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Best thread in the history of the Taco. Thanks for the entertainment/edu.
pc
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 07:44am PT
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The available evidence continues to verify our claims of lo these many decades.
Nobody can mistake what a moving target the whole critique has become, and SG is now almost alone in ignoring the piles of evidence of how misguided he has been on this whole subject.
The route was old-school A4/A5, we did not overdrill it, what FEW "enhancements" we did are nothing like "dimples" (as SG continues to stupidly assert) and are not even visible at all to the naked eye (because a few micro-grams were removed over the whole route (and NONE of that with straight-in drilling), and the ONLY "dimples" supposedly visible to others are on the ninth pitch and exist only according to SG.
Furthermore, the ninth pitch is the easiest for anybody to get onto, so any dimpling that MAY exist there now does not reflect what we did. We did not dimple on the route. Not a lot. Not a little. Not at all. SG continues to assert dimples. We deny them. Objective evidence accumulated over the hardest pitches on the route continues to confirm the accuracy of our denial. SG clings tenuously to this lie, as what he claims to have seen on the ninth pitch (one of the easiest on the route) grounds his last, fading shred of hope to get ONE bit of the "botch" to still stick.
The batheads were a lame experiment, which we readily admit and quickly abandoned, and there are only a few of them. (They are easily yanked and replaced by rivets. Big deal.) No botch. The Zamac rivets were intentional and a philosophical choice. We don't apologize for those, even knowing all we know today. We wanted body-weight-only rivets, and we got them. We would do that same thing again. As the Bird said, "Keep the commitment level high."
Summary of the moving "botch" target over the decades:
"A thousand bolts to Horse Chute." Nope.
"Ridiculously overdrilled." Nope.
"Almost every other placement is a rivet or bolt." Nope.
"Virtually every placement required the use of the drill." Nope.
"Miles of trenched heads and drilled hooks." Nope.
"My grandma could do that route in less than a day." Nope.
"The route is unrepeatable." Inconsistent with the above, and... Nope.
"Utter botch job by two incompetents." Nope.
"Terrible style for sure!" Nope.
Not one single person that has actually been on the route substantiates a single one of these "botch" claims. SG, who has never been on the route, remains resolute that the route was a "botch." But, there is no "heavy-handed use of the drill" in evidence, and not a "dimple" to be found, because, and I repeat, we didn't "dimple." And, despite claims to the contrary, the route is clearly repeatable in decent style... without dimpling. We now know of quite a few teams making it at least as high as the fifth anchor, presumably without further "enhancements" of their own.
About the only "mess" SG has left to assert, given nothing but continuous collaboration of our assertions about the reasonable style of the original climbing, is that we were slow and took a lot of junk.
Ok, guilty as charged. Of course, there was water pouring down the route until mid-afternoon most days (1982 was a record run-off year). We lost almost a week to storms (including one three-day storm that required rescue for three other teams). We gave up almost a week to Sabbaths. My ankle had been recently dislocated, which certainly slowed me down. And we were trying to free climb everything we thought was remotely possible in our EBs. Oh, and drilling those 3/8" anchor bolts with the old-style drilling gear took days over the course of the route. And, nobody can really say how long such a route should have taken on the FA, since there is no other route like it. Sure, we're slow, but there's a lot more to even that side of this story. But, even granting that we were PATHETICALLY slow, so what? What did that harm?
The "botch" target keeps moving, but it's getting harder and harder to find something to paint it on. (How many different threads have you/Mimi copied that gear list excerpt onto now, SG?)
I'm waiting to see how long it will be before (if ever) SG mans up enough to admit that on every substantive point concerning the route we left behind, he was mistaken. I won't hold my breath. lol
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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Using "dimple" as a verb. Feck.
Now there's a botch of the english language.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:12am PT
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Compare the time it takes to repete a pitch VS lead it for the first time is so lame as to be completely about as fckin stupid as it can get in the climbing world. Even if the hardware is old crap and rusted its is still way less work to repete than it is to FA.
I can't believe you idiots are still bashing these guys without ever haveing actualy repeted the rout.
It you have not led the rout in it's entirety ground up you quite simply do not have the right to trash it.
On the otherhand madbolter is so long winded and anal in his postings that he must be desperatly in need of professional therapy.
carry on;)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:17am PT
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Tradman, you obviously weren't listening or didn't understand when it was explained in great detail why it was that subsequent ascents would definitely and necessarily be much, much harder than the FA and that there could never, ever be a second ascent of the line anyway.
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fush
climber
NV
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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I heard it was Russ Walling that sh#t on the ropes and chopped their bolts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Your right I did Not read all the fine print and wankery but a climb is just a climb. They are all pretty much the same like it or not. The first guys go up there and risk their lifes cleaning and equiping on lead. then all the monday morning QBs pick you apart while they clip the hardware that was not there when you did all the real work.
Even if hardware is rusted to crap it is still easier to clip the old crap while you drill a new hole than it is to be the first one up there. So yea, Either STFU and climb the rout replaceing the old crap as you go or admit that the climb is too hard for you and give the FA party the credit for putting up a climb that kicked your arse so bad that you dident even try it...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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And the gassy knoll...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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That's some serious slander fush.
Of course you're hiding as a chickenshit behind a fake avatar with only one post ever without ever bringing your real identity to light.
Russ never has to take the elevator that far down to sh'it on anybodies rope.
He'll just face you head on an offer you a knuckle sandwich instead.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Just a theory,
The shitter (or ers) was most likely someone of no importance, lacking the skills to impress the masses, and the smarts and balls to stand alone as an individual. Basically your garden variety sycophant, trying to impress the “Gods”. In this theory they are just older versions of their old self now, who most likely still don’t “get it”.
In this world there are very few people I would literally sh#t on (even if that was their thing), but you should be damn sure that I’d do it with pride. My thought is that shitting on ropes isn't Russ's bag.
As for the rest of the WoS stuff, I enjoy reading it, you guys entertain me. I would like to see a remake of Kurosawa’s Rashomon made about it though.
Prod.
AKA Guy Kenny (no hiding my thoughts here Mr. Braun)
*EDIT* ADDITIONAL PUSSY ALERT "FUSH" you gutless p.o.s. 1 post?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Richard define style in two thousand words or so.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Check it out; they placed 205 copperheads and 165 total drilled placements in only nine pitches.
This confirms there's no real natural line there. Excessive use of copperheads has always to me seemed as "forced".
This is my own personal view. I'd hate to force a line with excessive use of heads and drilled holes.
The Tribal Rite first ascent team also got some heat for trying to force a huge blank section below El Cap Towers. They decided to abandon that line to El Cap towers.
I believe this may be what the guys back then also were seeing and envisioned when the WOS guys wanted to take their line of ascension.
Sure the locals were passionately protective, that's what happens in any climbing area. They did confront Richard and Mark. I didn't go to that meeting and have no idea what happened there.
I did talk to Richard and Mark right before that meeting and they were actually weighing the merits of canceling their attempt due to all the heat.
After the erasure attempt and defilement of their personal gear the pendulum swung to a complete "f*#k you guys" we're going to go climb El Cap as we originally planed.
Most likely the guys that went up to erase their attempt had the same "f*#k you" attitude after that meeting.
Somebody also went far beyond the extra mile to sh'it on their ropes which is so far below the basement it's astonishing.
Yosemite is a very high profile place and everything generally is going to be looked at under a microscope and spun in every different direction by all the spin doctors.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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If Russ was going to sh#t on ropes he'd be have developed a Fish RopeShitter for the job and you'd still be able to buy one today.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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What about all the other bolt ladders on that stone? Is it not true that the pecking order has more to do with how many holes you were allowed to drill than anything else?
N.conway certainly still follows this system. lately a bunch of bolts have been placed on rapell by one of the walk on water alumni. Not even the hint of a peep from the choppers...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Add to leaving the ground in a state of war with The Yosemite Climbers/SAR (after their unprecedented abuse at the hands and sphincters of an elite group of the aforementioned tormenters) the fact that Richard had a badly sprained ankle from a fall on the first pitch and you begin to get the spirit of this venture.
The Book of Dick makes all of these events quite plain and I will be exerpting it frequently for the edification of all who are interested. A many splendored thing is The Book of Dick.
Now back to that style definition so that we can stay on track at least a little.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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Thx Calder
Does Tim post on the Taco?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Is it not true that the pecking order has more to do with how many holes you were allowed to drill than anything else?
That's just spin.
You are allowed to drill a bolt ladder from bottom to top of El Cap.
Take the whole historic evolution of all the players and individuals from all sides into the picture before you try to paint it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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It may well be spin but my bet is that there is a lot of truth in it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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You are allowed to drill a bolt ladder from bottom to top of El Cap.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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The park service did just that on Half dome...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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SG what makes you hate these guys so much?
I respect your climbing, and really appreciate your contributions to this forum, but you obviously have a vendetta against these guys. I understand their peronalities rub you the wrong way, but try to let that go and listen to what they have to say.
Every post I read from you on WoS make me lose respect for you. Ever think of actually getting on the route to judge it's merits before you condemn it? It's obviously not the type of climbing you like, but you may be impressed with the difficulty and commitment and understand why it appealed to them. Ever think that climbing means different things to different people and there is nothing wrong with that? Ever think that you have a certain idea of acceptable style that is good for you and gives you the kind of challenge you want, but you can't dictate that to everyone else? What if someone dissed you because they thought you took too long on a route?
I'd rather you put your effort into posting TRs of your climbs and why you did them the way you did rather than bashing someone else because they don't do things how you think they should be done. Lead by example.
It's a free country, do what you want. But I wish you would be more productive by expending your energies toward positive productive writing, rather than wasting it attacking someone who is different than you.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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Defending propositions that are not relevant to the issues is not arguing from strength, FWIW. <-- i.e. FWIW, reflects my personal opinion and should not be taken for absolute Truth, but reflects an alternate way of looking at an issue so as not to alienate the original creator of the proposition I'm replying to.
I'm confident that this post is a strong one regardless.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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Werner,your count is wrong. I'll leave it to you to find the actual counts, which are posted ad nauseum. And now even "excessive copperheads" are an issue? Hahahahahahahahaha... I really belly laugh at that one! The "moving target of botch."
SG, the burden of proof is on you. You have spent decades defaming us, and "style" is apparently your own personal fiefdom. So, how about you define it for us. Then, I will systematically show (in my enviable long-winded fashion) that many climbers and routes on your "most respected" list flagrantly violated that "style."
"Moving target of botch...." Now we're talking "style," when before we had committed "clear ethical violations." Well, if "style" (by your own personal definition) is all you've got left, then I say you're done... unless, of course, you want to try to bring us all into your fantasy-land fiefdom.
We didn't "leave the ground in a state of war." We started the climb blissfully ignorant of how idiotic some of the Valley locals would turn out to be (idiocy that continues to this very day, I might add). And, contrary to Werner's claim, we didn't seriously consider abandoning the route in the "face of the heat." We very quickly saw the "pissing on trees" for what it actually was and then simply rejected that "proposition" as we decided to continue. It was after that the some of the Valley locals "declared war" (which continues to this very day, I might add).
And, I didn't "sprain" my ankle, as SG claims in yet another attempt to subtly spin the facts into something else. I'm well aware that the "sprained" claim is just another version of SG's trying to keep me going in an endless game of "whack-a-mole," as the stream of intentional distortions is all he has left to play with. But, it's an easy game to play, so I'll keep playing. The ankle was dislocated and didn't fully heal for several years after the ascent.
SG, I want to honestly appeal to you, man to man. Do you HONESTLY believe at this point that Mark and I are lying about any aspect of the route? Do you HONESTLY believe that we drilled any straight-in "dimples?" Do you STILL honestly believe that "every other placement required the use of the drill" and other such claims you and your cohorts have made? Just answer these questions, because those answers will go further toward burying the hatchet than anything else. If you can't/won't simply answer those questions, then there is nothing that can be done for you.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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It still boils down to the simplest of equations. Either climb the rout or STFU. They could have climbed it BINTD istead of rapping in to vandalize it. If you can't climb a rout you quite simply have no right to declare that it has too many bolts.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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The actual counts for the route itself was 145 as you explained.
The other 20 are part of the replaced original start which comes out to a total tally of 165 in reference to your book appendix.
I used the total tally as this is the total number of drilled placements attributed to the whole affair.
Man I hope I don't become this anal?
Anyways ..........
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Steve has loved this sport as long or longer than I have, and he's done more with it. He has absolutely earned a place here, and should not be told he is disrespected for voicing the opinions that his 40 years of climbing has developed.
Absolutely, and we need people forcefully stating why style is important.
But he isn't just voicing his opinions in this instance, he is condemning others without adequate knowledge of their supposed transgressions. That kind of disrepect makes me lose respect. It seems motivated by the personalities involved, not by a moral stance about the climbing.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Werner's claim, we didn't seriously consider abandoning the route in the "face of the heat."
Seems like you really did forget some of that conversation we had minutes before that meeting.
You did mention that there was a consideration to abandon doing the route.
You using the word "seriously" which I never used.
Again anal .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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Well, I guess that one man's "anal" is another man's "accurate." If you're going to include both starts, then count it as 11 pitches for the slab, and then another 4 above the slab (all of these but the last are LONG pitches, btw), for a total of 14 LONG pitches and 1 short one. I don't think it's "anal" to say that considering the ACCURATE tallies puts WoS in line with MANY routes of the 80s and 90s... certainly not worthy of special condemnation on that basis. Of course, if the "botch target" moves to copperheading... well, then all bets are off. But, then, many, many routes from the 80s onward will fail that test.
I think you're building an awful lot into the word "considered" in the context of our early discussions. We "considered" aborting the route from almost the first hook move until the top of the slab. Your emphasis, however, was on "in the face of the heat," and that was not a significant factor in our deliberations. Just look at thousands of posts on the taco about WoS and ask yourself if we come across as guys that shrink from a little "heat." In response to the "heat," we didn't seriously consider quitting, nor did we have a "fvck you" attitude, as some have suggested. The second through tenth hooks of the route (long before we encountered any "heat" at all) had me more seriously considering quitting than all of the "heat" combined. And the dislocated ankle put some serious consideration into the mix!
From the start of the resurrected WoS controversy on these threads years ago, we have sought the same thing: accuracy. If we are to be condemned, let it be on the basis of the FACTS. If the FACTS don't condemn us, then so be it. We have never claimed "greatness" (only SG can justifiably claim that). We have only claimed that the route was not a botch, by ANY of the moving measures of "botch" employed against us over the decades.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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To think that Sh#t was used as a Weapon of Hate.
Juan
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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I'm with the WOS guys.
It's not like the route is an eyesore or squeezejob for anyone, and it doesn't sound like anybody could waltz up there and do it with fewer bolts...
So what's the big deal? There's all kinds of holey, heady routes on El Cap that nobody says anything about,
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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It has less to do with the route and more to do with the players at this point, Karl.
At least that's my observation.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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yes.... on both sides of this civil discussion
one thing is certain for me... if someone where to go repeat the route I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for their opinion on the route in question.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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Looking at the gear list its hard to believe they hauled all that crap up the rock.
JDF
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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"in the face of the heat," and that was not a significant factor in our deliberations.
Well you just lied right to my face. Because you did say at that point in time right to me that you considered it, not that there was anything wrong with the choices you made.
But have at it and spin it any way you want.
And your term:
the "botch target" moves to copperheading.
Your reading comprehension is so completely blinded by "defense, defense, defense" that you can't make heads from tails anymore.
The extensive copperheading comment was my own personal feeling and used your line WOS as an example.
You've personalized the route and you as one.
I could never really see why Steve had it out for you but your recent comments now are bringing a whole new light to me.
You lump anyone who has any kind of criticism, different views and understanding about your so called climb you did on a rock as some kind of enemy.
You've become psychologically damaged with the thing.
Unbelievably stupid.
And I'm unbelievably stupid and naive for even ever talking to you .....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Werner- You have arrived at the truth with these as#@&%es. They are pathological liars, plain and simple. WE have had it with YOU CLOWNS!
I wholeheartedly accept the burden of proof and always have, just stay around for the fight this time tadpoles! No ankle injury? Yet another outright LIE and you were presumably there Richard, right?
Ahhh, The Book of Dick wherein all shall be revealed....
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Nov 25, 2009 - 08:06am PT
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And I'm unbelievably stupid and naive for even ever talking to you .....
That statement is a load of crap, of all the posters who were there, you have brought a pretty level headedness analysis to the table. From someone who was not there it has been appreciated in this entertaining read. I can empathize with his defensiveness can’t you, a little?
You've become psychologically damaged with the thing.
Maybe so? There is most likely some OCD in there as well, that was always there is my guess. That does not make the man guilty though, just nuts. Mad Bolter is not the only one in this public forum who seems a bit psychotic over this issue. The other has just lumped you in as his team mate.
Werner- You have arrived at the truth with these as#@&%es. They are pathological liars, plain and simple. WE have had it with YOU CLOWNS!
WE have had it with YOU CLOWNS!
Not too sure I’d want to be part of that prosecutorial team……
Prod.
AKA Guy Kenny
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:57am PT
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If you ever needed any adittional evidence some people will not listen to what the other side has to say and are just interested in personal attacks.
No ankle injury? Yet another outright LIE
He said it was dislocated, not sprained. How could you possibly get "No ankle injury" out of that? Then claim it was a LIE. Wow. I wonder if an apology is coming for that? I'm not holding my breath. CLOWN? Look in the mirror.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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So it was a dislocation not a sprain, my bad. The point is that he left the ground badly injured about which there is no argument. Without the chopping and defecation incident and their resulting declaration of war (or whatever you would like to call it) these guys would have quit the route right then and there.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Hi Steve,
I was not there. Could you explain how they declaired war?
Prod.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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Personally, I think guys who head up El Cap with bad feet are bad people....
;-)
Karl
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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You guys all know that this is never going to end, don't you?
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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Seek help dude!
Jeff
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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And I'm unbelievably stupid and naive for even ever talking to you .....
Werner, it seems you have been the only one looking at this contoversy from both sides since the begining. There's a lot of insight in your last post I hope Richard listens to.
my bad
Steve, I really respect you were able to admit a mistake. I wish you would take a fresh look at the whole climb and the incidents surrounding it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Back to the style issue. To use Robbins' short defintion, style is the manner in which technology and tactics are used to overcome a climbing problem. No team of two climbers in the history of alpinism globally have ever laid siege to a rock climb with the excess of equipment and supplies that went into the FA of WOS. This makes WOS an all time low water mark stylistically.
Short of sculpting holds for free climbing purposes, there isn't anything that these gents weren't willing to do to get up this route. Bathooks, batheads, "enhancemants", chiseled copperheads all came into play. To be clear, most of these uses of gear have shown up on other routes done by other climbers. Richard and Mark have repeatedly proclaimed that nobody else could have done a better job on WOS than they did and climbed it in better style.
One problem here is a glaring lack of relevant climbing experience and technical proficiency for a route of this character which hides nothing.
Another problem is their continuing lack of a forthright and honest accounting of their methods. It has taken years of constant badgering for the batheads and enhancement count to finally come out after starting with this unambiguous statement by Mark Smith:
MS 10/26/05 To reaffirm, we climbed the entire Great Slab without a single bat hook. If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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Steve as I understand from reading these threads, the Bathooks were used only on the last exit pitch after the Slab was completed. Are you saying that this is not true and that bat hooks were used during the entire climb?
Still interested in their declairation of war as well.
Prod.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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Steve have you ever heard of the Sea Horse on El Cap???
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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A Bathead is certainly the equivalent of a Bathook and is even worse because these guys in all their excess couldn't spend the money for stainless steel cable leaving the "frustrating" climbing that Calder talks about.
The state of war post is going to require more time than I have this morning but to claim that these guys left the ground in a peaceful mindset with no hard feeling toward their tormenters is hogwash. It takes some effort to piss Werner off because he has seen it all with respect to climbing in the valley.
Consider the following cautionary note that I wrote in a chapter about doing first ascents in Strassman's book Big Wall Climbing.
The WOS boys were howling for an apology about this before I actually showed up on this forum and began prying into the history of their route. The "from the valley forever" ending is poor usage and something that Strassman put in while doing his editing.
I haven't heard of the Seahorse. Do tell...
The hilarious thing is that Richard so coveted this line that he had convinced himself that others also did. In 1983 I picked out eight separate lines that hadn't been done on El Cap and I mean lines that followed features and were worth doing. I like hooking far more than most and really wasn't the least bit interested in what became WOS. That doesn't mean it was futuristic or a shift in paradigm or intimidation or anything besides plain disinterest.
These guys actually have a wierd distain for cracks and feel that the measure of a man is the blankness. They referred to the existing Yaniro pitches as The Bogus Start. The great irony being that if they had began their route on those two pitches the entire chopping/crapping episode would likely never have happened and they would have quit the route.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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The first ascent party ingored local ethics and bolted excessively.
there isn't anything that these gents weren't willing to do to get up this route.
From every person who has been on the route they said it has not been bolted excessively and the bolting and rivets were minimized. So the FA team obviously were trying for the best style in that regard.
You can question the amount of gear they took and the time it took, and say someone else could have done it better in that regard. But so what, unless they jumped on someone's elses project they have the right to do it how they want. It sounds like no one else was/is interested in that type of climbing, so who cares how long it took? They didn't take the climb away from anyone who would have done it in better style.
One problem here is a glaring lack of relevant climbing experience and technical proficiency for a route of this character
It sounds like they had the experience to climb it with a minimal amount of bolts/rivets. Maybe they could have improved on the amount of time it took, but that's part of their FA experience and doesn't effect the rock and other climbers, that's their prerogative.
Another problem is their continuing lack of a forthright and honest accounting of their methods.
To me it seems they have been forthright ad nauseum. If they wanted to hide the "enhancements" they could have just kept their mouth shuts, since no one can see them. Why would they admit to "enhancements" which opened up a whole can of worms if they wanted to hide them?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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The poor, victimal Valley Boys. Wow! Steve, you're really putting off some shrill notes trying to fan flames back into that charcoal. Bottom line from [everyone] who's been on the route:
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
You clearly have nothing of substance to bitch about beyond that except hackneyed cultural hobknobbery. And oh, the humanity!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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The only way to really settle the enhancements issue is to take a second look at the route. I have no interest in repeating this route and thereby validating it in its current condition. A quick trip up to the top of the Great Slab and a closer look just might be in order, however. That would put this to bed once and for all.
Richard are you willing to state that 90% of your 146 NARROW Logan hook placements did not involve the use of a hammer and drill at all? If 10% were enhanced by your definition in the OP then this should be easy for you. If you can't do so then please explain after crowing about the accuracy of your record keeping.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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He's already [repeatedly - as in once again just] said if anyone 'enhanced' at the top of the route it wasn't them. And the guy who just said:
"The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill..."
was taking a 'second look' at the route. Or are you claiming they went schizo and totally changed behavior on pitches 6 - 9.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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I have no interest in repeating this route and thereby validating it in its current condition.
Well you could always repeat it, and if it IS a travesty chop it. That implies the exact opposite of validation.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Nov 25, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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"I have no interest in repeating this route and thereby validating it in its current condition."
You have already validated it by whining incessantly about it, and offering no facts to support your allegations. If you went up on it, maybe someone would care what you have to say about it. This sour-grapes bs from your armchair is really unbecoming.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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SG says: "They are pathological liars, plain and simple." So, yes, Joe, SG asserts WHATEVER at the moment will make his point of the moment. The ninth was possibly the easiest pitch of the slab, yet it is HERE (also in the place easiest to scrutinize) that we supposedly went hog-wild with the drill.
And, SG, unlike you, I have EVER answered forthright questions honestly. And, in answer to your latest (utterly redundant) question, I am happy to say that the vast majority of our hook placements (yes, something like 90%) were entirely natural: we placed the hooks on the otherwise untouched flakes and started weighting them.
SG tried to float the idea that HE is the one that, through "badgering" has caused the truth to emerge. Exactly the opposite is the case! From years ago, when Mark and I finally decided to engage on these threads, we started responding to the seemingly endless tide of lies, defamation, and distortion, starting with the claim that we left a line of urine and feces all the way down the slab.
We have been more forthright about the tiniest details of what we did and what we were thinking when we did it than any team in the history of climbing. These threads have offered more insight into the DETAILS of this route than any other route in history (to the point of absurdity in the minds of many). But ALL has been attempts to set the record STRAIGHT in the face of distortions and outright lies about the route and about us personally. Everything from our hole tally to our religion has been the subject of wildly-speculative derision. (Not sniveling, just pointing out the meta-lie of the whole idea that it is the CRITICS that are really trying to get to the truth.)
Indeed, if you look at the motivation for the start of this very thread, it responds to SG's endless attempts to OBSCURE what we have endlessly made CLEAR. Despite the additional explanations, in this very thread he continues to refer to our "enhancements" (falsely so called) as "dimples," when this very thread has clarified both the "count" (as best we can remember it) and the nature of when drill touched rock.
Even the claim that WoS marked the stylistic low-water-mark in ALL of "alpinism" (which apparently includes mountaineering) would be laughable (and is obviously false) if it were not coming from a man that many respect.
And THIS is the nature of the problem from the very start of the "war" that was declared on us: RESPECTED people perpetrated the lies and distortions. And, in the form of SG, this continues to the present moment.
EVERY bit of evidence thwarts SG's continued perspective. EVERY team that has been on the route denies SG's claims about the nature of the climbing that is there, and EVERY team on the route brings back reports that verify what we have been saying for decades. Yet, in the face of all of this, and in the face of THIS very thread, SG has the audacity to YET AGAIN ask for a percentage???
It is ridiculous.
And, since SG quotes so heavily from the book, let him quote the section concerning the third pitch and then continue to float the idea that we were willing to do WHATEVER to get up.
I don't have it in front of me, but I'm sure SG does, so let HIM in honesty actually quote the relevant passages. I well remember the gist of Mark's and my conversation after the third pitch was up, and we SERIOUSLY contemplated aborting the route at that point.
The third pitch goes through what turned out to be the only band of rock on the slab where the rock gets friable and crusty. The hook flakes would not hold even initial weight, and I ended up drilling a virtual rivet ladder up about half the pitch. Afterward, we were saying things like, "We have about as high of a drilling ratio as we can cope with already. If the next pitch is anything like this one, we must realize that this slab cannot be climbed in good style, and we'll just have to give it up."
This was after we had already hauled our armada onto the route and were "committed." We would have been the laughingstocks of climbing history had we bailed from that point, yet we SERIOUSLY consider it, and we WOULD have done so if the climbing had not dramatically improved with the fourth pitch.
Responding in advance to what will be SG's yet again utterly uncharitable assessment of the gear list in the book, the explanation for taking 200 rivets is simple and non-nefarious. Rivets came in boxes of 100, and we had boxes around from our Quarry exploits. We considered how many rivets the route might take, and it was clear that we might well use some number more than 100. So, that opens another box. At that point we reasoned something like, "Well, they don't weigh anything, so just bag 'em up."
A mistake that our critics make at this point is to assume that we were coldly calculating about all the details. We weren't. We actually laughed often and long at Harding's description of how he and Caldwell "geared up" for WEML, something like, "Just gather tons of stuff together and start throwing it into haul bags." This is very much what we did. The tallying came long afterward, after that seemed to matter so much to people. We grabbed a sling full of bolts: into the bag. Two boxes of rivets: into the bag. Oh, we have a bunch of extra hangers (what were we thinking???): into the bag. Do we have a sharpening stone in there already? Well, here's another one. Can't hurt: into the bag. It's a blank slab, so how many Friends could we need? We have dozens, and there could be a use for them above the slab (good thing we thought this): into the bag. About the only things we were really calculating about were the food and water amounts. So, the idea that what we took indicated something about what we INTENDED to use is "hogwash."
Let SG quote from the relevant sections of the book that indicate that we were NOT willing to just drill our way up (if he's honest enough to do so), coupled with what is ACTUALLY on the route, and these FACTS clearly demonstrate that SG's claim that we were willing to do WHATEVER is flagrantly false.
At some point people will realize that SG has been doing the opposite of "digging for the truth." At this point, the truth about what we have said for decades is crystal clear (and it always has been), yet SG continues to call us "pathological liars." (Just a point of reference, SG: claims like that, in the face of the evidence you have before you, constitute defamation per se in the legal sense. If I thought you had a pot to tinkle in, that would be more than a merely academic point.) The current debate has NOTHING to do with SG trying to "badger" the truth out of us.
Werner, it amazes me that because we remember an almost 30-year-old conversation differently, you would call me a liar. Are you really suggesting that YOU know the content of our intentions better than US? What I am telling you is that, whatever you remember being said, we did not consider bailing BECAUSE of the "heat." It is simply astounding to me that you CAN call that a LIE. Wow... are we really at THAT level? Better to keep accusations of that nature reserved for cases in which the truth conditions are a bit more objective! Mellow out... meditate a bit, my friend.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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In answer to LEB (and others that have voiced similar sentiments), that's easy: it is OUR reputations and even personalities that have very publicly been called into question. Nobody else on these threads has been publicly chastised the way we have been, and that on the basis of utter distortions and lies rather than on the basis of the actual facts. So, we are committed to defending ourselves. Our "endless" defense is the only reason the truth has come out on these threads.
Look at other threads, like about Growing Up, where people have felt the need to assert points and defend themselves, and you will see that these threads quickly sprout hundreds and hundreds of posts. It is not "defensive" to be committed to defending oneself.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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Never anything useful, thoughtful, or productive to contribute.
FAIL
[edit after two hours] Gotta love TwistedCrank's lame then retracted posting behavior. Again, nothing useful, thoughtful, or productive.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 25, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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1st time i ever read anything that lowest wrote which has made any sense whatsoever
you can't go back in time
you can't get a re-do
whatever people say now can never change what has been said, and that seems like what you are really after, as far as i can tell
past is past
future is a dream
neither is real, neither matters
why not live right now?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 25, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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I live right now. I tried to climb Wings of Steel. I have climbed a few routes on El Cap, including at least one hard one of SG's. I and my partner got up SG's route - scary, hard, superb - without cheating. But I couldn't climb Mark and Richard's route because it is too hard for me. And since Wings of Steel stands unrepeated after various second ascent attempts, I'm not the only one who finds it hard.
I've seen what's up there - it's scary and runout and hard. It is not overbolted, I could see no evidence of any enhancement at all, and I was looking. That there are no apparent enhancements is curious considering how many have attempted to climb it since, but that's certainly good news.
I do knott understand why SG continues to hurl accusations and repeat questions which Richard and Mark have already addressed - in excruciating detail! - because it makes him look like a fool. SG's has not climbed Wings of Steel, nor has he even set foot on it so far as I am aware, and his accusations are in direct opposition to the observations I myself have made. Accordingly his accusations carry no value, and should be disregarded. I do knott know why he feels such animosity towards Mark and Richard. Perhaps his penis is very small?
I spent considerable time getting to know Mark and Richard in person, to listen to their story, and to climb their route. They are two of the most forthright and credible men I have ever met, and I feel priveleged to call them my friends. I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the information they have provided to us regarding Wings of Steel is true to the best of their knowledge, although we ought to cut everyone a bit of slack when it comes to remembering conversations that happened a quarter-century ago.
Peter Zabrok, of shrunken bollocks,
Ontario, Canada
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 25, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Once LEB visits your thread........
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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loisified!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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LEB, you are asking the wrong person your questions. Our motivations for continuing to correct the ongoing distortions are very clear, and anybody being honest with themselves can relate to those motivations.
What motivates people like SG at this point? What does SG hope to gain at this point?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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I think Pete just said it all.
Mr Gossman, most all of us respect you and your routes, but it appears this time you need to stand down and bow out. You made your case, but a jury of peers do not agree. As the route appears to withstand that oldest of tests, the test of time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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Richard- Where did you originally envision WOS finishing up before almost four weeks on the Great Slab and blown out homemade portaledges ledges pushed you left to the Aquarian?
Pete's inability to climb the bottom pitches of WOS with a toprope and long cheaterstick doesn't really establish anything IMO. The Jolly Roger didn't even see a repeat before it had several holes added to it, by the way. Hard to say what sort of shape it was in by the time Pete got there. Pete did see fit to add a couple of holes of his own, right Pete?
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Steve,
Wings of Steel never happened. It's an urban legend. K? Snopes will verify. Let it f*#king go already. Have you a life?
gene malone
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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Certainly do and I choose to spend some of my energy here on the ST doing all sorts of posting. These guys bellowing for an apoogy is one of the reasons that I showed up here, nkay?
If any of you folks can't stand the tone, content or direction of my comments then just ignore the thread in question and peruse something else.
These guys really like the attention when all is said and done and only choose to participate on this forum when their routes are the subject of discussion.
A couple days climbing up and down and I will be quite content with the situation.
Matt- What are you doing next spring?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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SG, listen to Studly. It's good advice, and as time passes I predict that it is advice you will more and more wish you had heeded.
You asked for "clear" accounts of the "enhancements," and you have them. In three different places on this thread alone I have answered the same question about how many hook placements were "enhanced." In not one of those cases have you acknowledged receiving that information. So, before you are entitled to ask any more questions, let's get clear about two things:
1) As I said, my motivations on these threads are clear, but yours are not. Inquiring minds want to know: what motivates you on these threads? Until you clearly answer that question, you are not entitled to ask more questions of us.
2) Do you agree that I have been entirely clear and forthright about the "enhancement" percentages and numbers? This is, after all, the topic of this thread.
Until we establish that one point, I have nothing more to discuss with you, because until that point is clear, I fully expect that you will continue to assert that we have not be clear. So, which is it? Did you get the answer to that question or not?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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SG-
being right and/or being wrong is just not enough motivation to coerce me to intentionally aid climb up some slab.
whomever gawd is, she spent plenty of her energy creating amazing features to climb, and i don't consider the path of this route to be among them. given that my days on this earth are finite, i'l not be blowing them on WoS when i could be at indian creek or some tropical beach, or even pat and jacks, for that matter...
i really think everyone ought to just let this saga go
(but lastly, in all seriousness, i have to wonder how some people around here could truly believe that their own personal endorsement of this climb or these climbers somehow actually helps out their cause in any way... coughpetecough... yougottabekiddinmepal..)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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Holy frig, Steve! Are you looking for a belayer for Wings of Steel???!!!!
ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111
I'll be there with f*#kin' BELLS ON, dude, to belay you up Wings of Steel!!! Dude, I'll bring the biggest longest baddest-ass camera lens you've ever seen, and I'll record every millimetric move you make!! It'll be awesome, man! I'll get Kate and her Blackberry, and we'll upload live to McTopo and everyone can watch!!!
BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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You'll have your answer next spring on the enhancements unless I find something better to do.
Almost the entire Downward Spiral thread went without a response from you or Mark and quite frankly screw you and your dismissive little statement of petulance. It didn't work on Mimi and won't accomplish anything on this Forum.
I don't really give a rat's ass on a cold day whether you choose to respond to anything that I say or question that I ask. That is entirely up to you, as always.
As Matt duly noted, you guys leave the conversation whenever your position or support for it begins to wane. No different here when you feel that you are on a high note and would like to end the controversy that follows your climbing career around like a nasty fart. Ignoble fate for you but entirely warranted.
Stay away if you can but you guys haven't gained a shred of respect in my eyes as a historian. None of your efforts on El Cap measure up to squat. Back to the shadows with you...
Cheers
Pete- I don't even care to meet you much less climb anything in your company. You missed your chance last season. That was Mimi and I on the Footstool while you carried on about "the last steep thing on El Cap that you hadn't done" once you determined that she was a girl. Dream on...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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I've been trying so hard to just watch and enjoy, keep my mouth shut, no commentary. And I will continue to do so...but holy crap! Pete, that was just too hilarious! I literally have tears rolling down my face! That's it, no other comment on any of this or the people involved, I'm gone now. I really wasn't here at all...
Heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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lol
re: "Pete- I don't even care to meet you much less climb anything in your company. You missed your chance last season. That was Mimi and I on the Footstool while you carried on about "the last steep thing on El Cap that you hadn't done" once you determined that she was a girl. Dream on..."
yeah that's the climbing experience we all strive for, an antagonist for a belay slave, rooting against you at every second, hoping his fellow evangelical gawd-fearin hook lovers will be redeemed before HIS eyes...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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" these guys would have quit the route right then and there. "
Which, I would say, is still better than slandering and declaring war on a route and the FAists, without ever having laid eyes on the route.
Sheesh! I can't believe this is still going on. I don't think I've been on the Taco in close to 3 months and it's in EXACTLY the same spot as when I left. Mark and Richard in "defend mode" and Steve talking about sh#t he really has no business talking about and can't possibly, even himself, believe that he can offer any logical insight into. I'd certainly hope he'd at least understand that not only will no one give what he says any credance, but that he actually loses people's respect with this personal vendetta.
It's basically, "I've never been to Africa, but I think it f*#king sucks. It's hot, there are bugs and slimy, poisonous things and big, man-eating critters.... Or so I am told. But, let me tell you, it really sucks ass in Africa, I know!" lol
Get a grip guys. Sheesh!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:11pm PT
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Rest easy, dude. This one won't be around until next season when it springs back to life again....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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That would be about the perfect end to this whole thing, Steve. Good luck! Regardless, I'm sure you'll have a great time on the Captain, no matter what you do. Old friends coming together is always a good thing!
Hope everyone has a great Turkey Day tomorrow. Even you wankers up in Canada.
Back into hiding, err working, err.... :)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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What DRIVES you, SG? You've lied about us for decades, called us names, disrespected us as human beings, obfuscated wildly for years, fought your increasingly losing fight for years.... for what? What is your point? What do you get out of it? What MUST the world know about WoS and about us? In all honesty I have asked. In all honesty I really want to know what drives you to be so resistant to the ever-growing piles of evidence and so hardened in your animosity.
You treat us as bugs that simply must be squashed, but how did you ever get it into your mind that ANY other basically decent human beings should be thought of that way? Are you really as arrogant as you seem on these threads, so unflinchingly self-assured that your view of the world simply MUST be correct... because it is YOUR view?
I'm honestly simply astounded by people like you, and I try to imagine what it would take for you to simply follow the good advice of the recent posts on this thread: let it go. Declare a cease-fire. Quit defaming us. Let us and the route fade into the obscurity you CLAIM is so deserved.
But you won't answer the simplest of questions, so at this point, wearily, I resign myself to the fact that in a day or a week or a month or a year, YOU will be back to asking the same old questions of us, speculating in the same tired old ways, defaming us with the same worn out accusations. Like a skipping record, but we can't find the off switch nor bump you into some other track. At the mere mention of WoS, you....
simply....
must....
drop back into the same track.
It's obviously deeply personal for you, but why?
You treat this whole thing like we STOLE the route from you, when, of course, being the mighty SG, of course, YOU could have done it so much better. The idea that two buffoons from the armpit of the world could come into your Valley, climb on YOUR rock without paying YOU homage and getting the proper permissions, and then actually put up a decent route is just too much to take? What is it? What did we ever do to YOU?
Aren't your own assertions about the "greatness" of your own routes enough for you (like the recent thread about the Real Nose, uhhh... excuse me, the Competitive Edge... wow, what a provocative name!)? Aren't the bows of respect you get from so many others on these threads enough for you?
Or are you NOT a magnanimous ruler but are instead a tyrant? EVERY knee must bow, and while we or WoS enjoy a SHRED of credibility from ANYBODY, that is a threat to your total rule? Are you really so little inside that you must squash every potential threat to that world view in which you (and a few cronies) were/are gods?
See... I can only speculate based upon known psychological theories, but I readily admit that they are pure speculations. I want to know from YOU what the real story is. Why have you dogged us for years and years?
What's the game, SG? What DRIVES you?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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Nah
Should be Madbolter1 and Steve do it together in spring.
2and ascent.
Did I just say something wrong again .........
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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It's really nothing wes.
It just gets blown so far out of proportion by the way we interact here on the internet.
You should know that.
If you and me were to meet in person we would immediately strangle each other, kick each other in the nuts, and a couple eye gouges, that way we know where we stand.
Then it's off to the bar for more fun ......
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:40am PT
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Werner:
"Nah
Should be Madbolter1 and Steve do it together in spring.
2and ascent.
Did I just say something wrong again ........."
PERFECT!
(shhhh, I was not here...)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:17am PT
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I'd double my offer of beer and wine for a Mad/Gross ascent and throw in a bottle of Scotch.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:28am PT
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With one haulbag full of exlax.......
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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I like the idea of Steve and Pete doing the second together. Pete is one of the most prolific guys climbing up there these days Steve. The crux of climbing with him would be having to avoid the hernea from hauling all his crap. There may even be a chance that he is capable of getting done in less time than a month.
Why would madbolter1 want to repeat his route?
Happy Thanksgiving everyone
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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"Haul stuff?"
ME?!
SUCH a thing to say, Tommy. Steve doesn't even know that every morning, I make the best damn Big Wall Coffee in the whole entar universe. And that "mornings" usually begin around the double digits, and linger well into what most people consider "afternoon". Changeover Time is known to occur not much later.
I'd be happy to belay Steve, however I also want to get my hundred bucks that I'm offered on the WoS Bounty Thread!!! Do you guys remember what THAT would entail??
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
Oh yes, I almost forgot to tell you - I actually *DID* give my partner a hernia last year when he tried to haul my stuff!!! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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Your right Kev we are a twisted bunch and this thread is proof of that.
I'll bet yuz got the skills to do the first 5 pitches free. Could be another one of those Quicksilver type routes. You could put all us aider totten weenies in our place. Question is would you stance the bolt's or look for one of the mystery dimples to hook for a bolt? : ) Oh wait that aint legal youl have to settle clipping those Zmacks. HeHe
Hey Pete, I can make a pretty good cup myself with the advent of the jetboil. I am sure your cup is good though. Cheers
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Richard- After some consideration I have decided to take you at your word.
Here is the deal. If I find more than twenty enhanced hook placements on The Great Slab then I am going to erase the route. If you have given an honest accounting of your activities then you have nothing to worry about because I will be fair and I will leave you gentlemen alone
I think that your good name as a climber may be a bit more difficult to defend than you imagine when you continually threaten to file a defamation suit. Only one way to find that out...
I have considerable legal firepower in my family and friends so your feckless threat of legal action is laughable.
You who pursue plagiarism with a vengeance should certainly understand the value of honesty so again, if you are being straight with everyone, then rest easy.
Should your recollection suddenly change, you have until the end of the day on Black Friday to alter the 10% figure should you choose to do so.
Your route has already been choppped once so this is nothing new.
Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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NOW we're talking! I can't wait to see this!
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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The plot thickens...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Oh, and to answer your question. History, tradition, integrity, excellence and style is what drives me, in addition to my minivan...LOL
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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LEB- Your opinion on this thread and on the forum in general holds no value for me personally, just so you know.
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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Who gets it?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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Karl, you were right - Loisification is well underway. Sheesh.
Tommy - It's all well and fine to have a JetBoil, everyone these days has one of those. But do you have a Dr. Piton Shagadelic Big Wall Coffee Press? Coated in TWO layers of blue closed-cell foam and duct-tape, complete with clip-in loop and dedicated colour-matched fake-o carabiner, and sealed with Marine Goop? Keeps your coffee hot for over thirty minutes!
Randy - you'd better stick close to Steve with your camera. If he only finds nine enhancements, he might feel he needs to grab his drill to install another eleven! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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LEB- Go fish somewhere else...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Geez Lois
I would have thought, after your last experience here, you'd have returned and only infested Loisy threads where we're used to you.
Posting here about a heated issue is buying a ticket to a ride out on a rail!
Peace
Krl
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Redwreck
Social climber
Echo Parque, Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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I suppose crashing an orgy and demanding that the participants explain the birds and the bees to you would be legitimate too, eh?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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SG, I do not "continually threaten to file a defamation suit." There have been two times I have even mentioned it, and in both cases you had gone way over the top, far exceeding what could possibly count as "expressions of opinion." And, if you have such "legal firepower" as you say, then you know exactly what I'm saying. Furthermore, as you will note with a CAREFUL re-reading of my comment (that's apparently pretty hard for you), I did not "threaten" it. Conversely I stated that I'm confident that you are not worth the effort. But for all your talk of "history," "integrity," and "excellence," you have never evidenced that you care about any of those things in your discussions on this topic. I would take a tiny bit of ACCURACY over all your vaunted claims of "integrity."
Chop the route???
Wow, yes. Surely you must. Years of growing angst have clearly driven you to this, and you NEED it. So, do! Go ahead and chop it. It matters not to me, but clearly YOU need it!
Of course, plenty of people will be there to record whether or not you can actually get UP the thing without a cheat stick. I'd be happy to have you chop it just in the hopes that you would get this thing out of your system! More power to you, demi-god.
Oh, and as you scrutinize this route more closely than any other route in history has ever been scrutinized, be sure to remember that THIS is what you will be remembered for. Already people are saying, "Geez, I used to really respect that guy and his climbing. But what's UP with this WoS thing? The guy is like looney-tunes!" It is funny in a tragic sort of way to think that you have been brought to this point, that THIS is where your arrogance and bravado have led: you actually see yourself as THE "defender of the faith." Well, more power to you, demi-god.
So, you "answered" one of my questions, but with utter fluff and nonsense: "History, tradition, integrity, excellence and style."
I predicted you would "answer" in such vapid fashion. THE question, cast now in YOUR terms, is: What DRIVES you with such bitterness to focus all of these vague, relativistic values on US over the years? What leads you to imagine that we really are just bugs in good need of a squashing?
Who made YOU the god of these vague, relativistic terms? No, you are still missing the actual question, SG! Warren never IMAGINED Valley Christians at YOUR level of fanaticism!
Oh, and in your count, be sure to remember that I don't lie, so ANY "hooks" with straight-in dimples you find (however many of them now exist) are not ours. As I have said for years, you won't be able to count our enhancements because you won't be able to see them.
So, your fanatical quest arises from a dichotomy in which you have already decided upon the answer:
Either Mark and I are lying about the nature of our "enhancements," or we are not. If you think that we are not, then you have no motivation to go up and "prove" anything about our "enhancements." In that case, you would already know that you can't count our enhancements, so you would just accept the count we have given. After all, we are not lying. So, an attempted count would be pointless.
You clearly do not accept that side of the dichotomy. So, clearly you think that we are lying about the NATURE and the count of our "enhancements." You believe that OUR "enhancements" ARE something like "dimples" that are in-principle countable.
But, that presents your grand, fanatical quest with a fundamental credibility problem.
You treat your role in the quest in grandiose fashion: YOU will act as objective judge of what WE did on the route, and if what WE did on the route passes YOUR (gag! how did you EVER get this arrogant?) inspection, you will deign to let the route live.
But, as I have just demonstrated, you are no objective judge. You go into your quest presuming that we are lying. You presume that you will find and count what you expect to find and count; despite our assurance that you cannot count what we did.
But, now, that presents your quest with an even more serious credibility problem:
1) Your stated goal is to find out the truth about what WE did on the route.
2) Decades have passed, and dozens of teams have been up various parts of the route, including, supposedly, all the way up the slab.
3) You yourself claim that holes have been added to YOUR routes as soon as their second ascents; and you and John both continue to assert that routes like the Sea were all drilled up by the second-through-fourth-ascent teams.
4) In anything resembling "objectivity" and "fairness," as you assert you will employ, you MUST admit that additional drilling was done on WoS after Mark and I were on it, because this happens to ALL routes!
5) So, you have exactly ZERO reason to think that ANY "dimples" you find on WoS, almost thirty years later and after dozens of teams have been on the route, reflect ANYTHING about what Mark and I did.
6) So, your supposedly "fair" count actually counts NOTHING it claims to be counting, because....
7) Mark and I did NOT "dimple" hooks on the route, but...
8) YOU (opposed to your claim of "fairness") have to ASSUME IN ADVANCE that we are lying in order to motivate your quest at all, yet....
9) You KNOW that EVERY route gets butchered by subsequent efforts on it.
9) Thus, your quest is an exercise in futility because, given the above, it can demonstrate NOTHING about the route, about Mark and I, or about your supposedly "objective justification" to chop the route.
Your entire fanatical quest is a self-serving but ultimately self-defeating one: ANY "dimples" you find will not count as justification for either your quest or your (inevitable) chopping; so you will have demonstrated nothing in the minds of reasonable people. It is impossible in principle for you to PROVE that we are lying at this point; too much time has passed, and too many teams have been on the route!
So, your supposed justification for chopping the route is obviously question-begging and a mere personal vendetta; which will even more pressingly raise the questions I have posed to you above: WHAT drives you to this point? Don't give us vapid pseudo-answers at this point, SG! More and more inquiring minds want to KNOW!
You have missed styling yourself after Robbins, because at least he did a SECOND ascent, very SOON after the WEML was established. By letting almost three decades pass, with dozens of attempts on the route, you have made it impossible in principle for you to "judge" OUR work! So, whatever you decide to do up there, however you work it around in your own mind, you STILL fail to judge US. You are no Robbins, on ANY level. ROBBINS could actually admit he was mistaken.
But, if such a quixotic quest still moves you, then I and others will enjoy watching your efforts for the entertainment value alone. This will be one of the most magnificent exercises in futility that I have ever heard of. If you think that chopping the route will make this whole thing go away, then you are ignorant of history. And if you think that at this point YOU enjoy the credibility to "objectively judge" MARK and I and the route WE put up, then you are both foolish and ignorant of history.
I am SOOOOOOO curious how this will play out! What an incredible exercise in logic and psychology played out on an increasingly public stage. In fact, I think the major media would be fascinated by this thread and its results in the Spring!
Go, man, go!!!!! Your arrogance and bravado are EPIC!!!!
With each passing day you ENSURE that your stated desire to see the route fade into obscurity will NEVER happen!!!
Chop away: demi-god. My name for you (worthy of a god) after your epic adventure will be: Sisyphus!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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No response forthcoming until Black Friday has passed.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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This freaking awesome! "Black Friday" Bwahaha!
Damn right madbolter1 this is one hell of a public stage and it is set. I look forward to see how things play out.
I would bet if everyone just ignored LEB and not resond to her ignorance she just might go away again.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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The plot thickens...
Or deepens...
Curt
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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SG: if you can continue to say that, then you are significantly more clueless than I have imagined (which is saying something). Do you not even read what I write that you supposedly "respond" to?
So, let me be clear: what we have said about the "enhancements" stands and will continue to stand, regardless of what your fanatical quest "discovers." Nothing you do at this point can possibly affect that. Your whole cut-off time is pure bravado, and can be dispensed with, as I don't acknowledge YOU as a god or able to make meaningful deadlines.
We left nothing countable in the way of "enhancements," so count all you want, and chop if you choose. The points I have tried to make over the years are made.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Almost any aid climb that's been around 20 years that I've been on has had endless damage from repeated nailing, heading and whatnot.
Get over it. People probably should have stayed off El Cap altogether until 1990 if you really care about preserving grains of granite and climbing for future generations. What if the Shield headwall was only climbed starting in 2006 with the cleanest possible gear?
Then El Cap would be like much of Tuolumne, mandatory freeclimbing and leadouts so many routes are only accessible by the elite.
As soon as an aid climb starts getting ascents, it starts changing and getting hammered here and there. Zodiac was clean and then purists cleaned the fixed stuff and we're hammering on it again
WTF? It's a weird game and mostly in our minds. There are tons of EL Cap routes that aren't much worth doing, or that almost never get done, and nobody cares.
WHich makes this a senseless ego circus
PEace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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In spring 2010, it will have been 28 years since Wings of Steel was climbed. Given the passage of time, it may be a challenge now to climb the route, and come to conclusions as to what was done in 1982 - focusing solely on the physical: alteration of the rock. Others may debate the style and value of the route, whether the alterations that were made (once identified) were within the ethos of the climbing community and routes on El Capitan at the time, who we can believe about what, who did or didn't do or say what in 1982 or since, whether a route on such a feature should be considered sui generis, and so on. I'll stay out of all that.
My interest is in what evidence there is now as to what physical alterations were made to the rock in 1982, based on such evidence as is available from 1982, and any that has been provided since, or would be available from an objective, thorough inspection of the climb in 2010. The best way to obtain that information appears to be by having several competent, objective climbers rappel Wings of Steel, carefully examine what they see, and report, amd draw such conclusions from the evidence as are reasonable. That is, a rappel examination - before anyone climbs the route, which may further change its condition. If the route was then climbed, with whatever information that adds, so much the better.
The debate needs to be founded on facts: What exactly was and wasn't done to the rock in 1982? There is some evidence from that time:
Previous attempts on the lower part.
The book and photos, and subsequent reports from the protagonists.
Observations from reliable persons as to what they saw at the time.
Little of this is entirely objective, and people's memories now as to what happened in 1982 may not be reliable.
There is some subsequent information, mostly from people who've attempted or climbed the first few pitches, or examined sections of the climb. Perhaps the climbers or observers in 1982, or others since, took useful photos. Careful examination of old photos sometimes reveals useful things.
If the rock has subsequently been further altered by erosion, ice or rock fall, or attempts/ascents which accidentally or otherwise caused change, there may be no way to measure or even know that. Perhaps a geologist can advise as to whether erosion (water, snow, ice) is likely to have had significant effects. (Major effects, such as damage to bolts, hangers, and rivets, should be observable.) It seems likely that the first few pitches have also incurred alteration due to subsequent ascents/attempts - microfeatures may not always be durable.
A rappel and examination should be informative, and allow useful inferences. It might not be conclusive, but may provide more objective information about the situation than anything else, particularly if the work was thoroughly documented. It could certainly record all the bolts and rivets that were placed, bat hook holes of any depth, and head and piton placements. All leave evidence. Dislodged flakes also, as they often leave something of a scar - although they may not be human-caused, or have furthered the climb. And it should be possible to swing to either side of the route, to unclimbed rock, and compare. Probably fairly similar, although the route followed a supposed line of weakness.
[Involving several persons, rappelling, and thoroughly documenting what is seen, seems the only way to obtain a reasonably objective report. Having an ascent follow the climb avoids the application of the Heisenberg thing. Of course, if the protagonists wanted to participate, so much the better.]
Finding and recording the 'enhanced' placements may be the crux of the challenge, even with the information that has been provided about them. There may not be much if any physical evidence, even on rigorous examination. A chip, chisel and drill fest should leave lots of physical evidence, and speak for itself. Cleaning a few grains of rock to enhance tiny edges, using the 'edge' of the hook, a drill, or a hammer, may not leave clear evidence. If there are only 20 such enhancements over 13 pitches, just finding them could be a challenge. (If there seem to be 100 or more such enhancements, readily identifiable, and nothing similar can be seen on nearby rock, the inference might be clear.)
Maybe the physical evidence isn't there, or won't be conclusive. But a thorough rappel examination of the climb as it is now may be more informative than anything else that could be done, and might even finally end some of the debate. It would be nice if Wings of Steel had a second ascent, but one preceded by a rappel examination of the climb, some or much of which has not been repeated, and which so may be quite informative. If the rappellers replace the belay bolts en route, OK with me.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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No substitute for direct examination and that is my intention. The matter will be settled as a result. What could be better?!?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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I concur with your assessment, Mighty Hiker. Honestly, I would hate to see anybody get hurt on the basis of bravado alone, particularly when such an attempt cannot provide any more (and will probably provide less) objective analysis than a rappel descent would.
And, I think I speak also for Mark, when I say that we really don't care what gets done with the route at this point. Replace all the rivets with 1/4" bolts for all we care. Chop it and put up a new one it the "best style according to SG." We don't care. The route is not "ours" in any sense of the word, and people that have attached their emotional well-being to some hunks of metal in the side of a cliff are pretty sad-off, imho.
Nothing that is done, or not done, to the route at this point has any effect on what Mark and I did, how we did it, or what we got out of it. Lies and defamation about who we were and are as people will continue to arouse me to defend the facts. But the route, qua the patch of El Cap, is meaningless to me.
Have at it!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Crossing posts.
SG, do you REALLY think that the matter will be settled?
Wow!
Your arrogance and bravado ARE EPIC!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Aw geez, yous guys are writing faster than I can read and respond! The only thing I had time to read was what Lois wrote. Naturally I skipped Richard's diatribe because it is too long, but I can probably stomach it after a couple beers.
Lois:
I like you and think you're OK. My comment regarding Loisification was completely tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be offensive. But the questions you ask are questions which we as climbers understand, and for the most part "get", although they are also very hard questions to answer. I can appreciate that as a non-climber you would love to get answers, but honestly, hon - we can't be bothered.
Say this is a knitting forum. [I don't know anything about knitting]. And say it is populated by people who have spent a lifetime knitting. Then a non-knitter, such as yourself, comes on and starts asking questions, asking us to explain fundamentals about say darns or pearls or whatever that everyone who knits fully understands, but you as a non-knitter do knott.
Accordingly, this might be a good time to sit back and not interrupt concerning issues that you really don't understand, nor are you likely to understand until you too have invested the time and energy learning how to knit, and hung your ass out on the end of knitting needle, and cheated death high above the carpet, and so on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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The examination has to precede the ascent. Ideally, the subsequent climbers wouldn't be part of the inspection team, or even talk with them, so as to preclude suggestions of pre-inspection, and thousands more posts about that. But I can understand why they might want to have a look and say their bit.
My post upthread was a thought-experiment, looking at this as a forensic/legal challenge. That is, what objective evidence can be found, and how, and what can reasonably be inferred from it? It might at least somewhat reduce the scope of wrangling.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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Kevin
That's so 1980's
Now-a-days a POV (Point of View) camera mounted on a helmet with a wireless transmitter to a mobile unit with internet uplink and you can have live feed to the world with just minimal latency.
But anyways .... this whole thing here might set a precedence on absurdity.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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Kevin
Maybe we can get Hoover to get a TV satellite network vehicle to cover it.
Then after it's all over they'll most like capture us all and lock us up forever in the padded "White Room".
Edit; Thanks Kevin, same to you.
Today is a good day to not be a turkey ......
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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I'll go one step further....
HAPPY TURKEY DAY!!!!.....
....
Lois!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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The kook who vowed to leave this forum has returned to using LEB (rather than howeirddean handle)
once again spews the same bullshít:
PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
-then quite predictably spews on with post after post of long-winded, clueless nonsense.
And as usual, isn't the least bit deterred by the any of the following:
Once LEB visits your thread........
loisified!
LEB- Your opinion on this thread and on the forum in general holds no value for me personally, just so you know.
LEB- Go fish somewhere else...
LEB, you and all your questions are completely illegitimate.
Geez Lois
I would have thought, after your last experience here, you'd have returned and only infested Loisy threads where we're used to you.
Posting here about a heated issue is buying a ticket to a ride out on a rail!
I suppose crashing an orgy and demanding that the participants explain the birds and the bees to you would be legitimate too, eh?
Is anyone surprised?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Don't feed the Lois!
Start another thread about Lois so this thread can have it's own pure dysfunction.
Actually Lois mucking it up might be just the distraction it needs but at least we're still trying to get somewhere
PEace
karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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The ego / self-absorption of that woman is astounding!
The thread's already mucked in the ass (loisified), so no harm getting my 2 cents in...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Life may be a bitch, but you're the biggest egotist on this forum (and by far the most loquacious).
It really IS all about YOU, isn't it?
So why did you stop posting as howweirddean?
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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I'm knott vested in this argument, but at this point in the conversation, Lois's questions seem legitimate as any (today, anyway).
Yeah, I know that ain't saying much, but they bring it down to ground level.
Or perhaps I'm in the holiday mood.. I dunno....
Carry on....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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Holy Loisification, Batman!
OK, OK, so I finally managed to read through Richard's tome. Translation: "WTF is up your a*#, Steve? We just don't get it. Please explain truthfully."
Edit: Oh, fer fvck's sake, Chris - can't we even say "ass" on McTopo?
Double edit: Hell yeah, we can say "ass" - just put it in quotes!
Triple edit: "F*#k" me, that's funny! Oh "shit", it didn't work. Sheesh.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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Happy thanksgiving everyone!
I can't imagine a better resolution to this than Steve going up there.
What an incredible twist that would be in this crazy drama.
I think it would be a stand-up move, especially at his age. I really hope he goes for it.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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LEB,
ussualy I just ignore you... But in this case I have to say. STFU!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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it boggles my mind why you all are allowed to drill stuff, pound stuff, nail stuff, drill bolts, etc.
Would "Black Elk" allow it?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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mmmmmmm-hm
uuuuuuuuuh-huh
go ahead people-
line up right here, just to say it once out loud, that i was right all long...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Or should I say "Chief Tenaya" ......
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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HowWeirdLois wrote:
PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
It's alive!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
It's ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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God help us...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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I almost hurt myself laughing as I was catching up and reading Karl's "...so this thread can have it's own pure dysfunction," but when I read the rest of what followed, ending with Hardman's "God help us..." I did hurt myself. Even Pete's sorry attempts to swear effectively were hilarious to me.
Some very funny stuff on the taco today, this thread no exception.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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I've tried to refrain from posting on this, as it seems like much ado about nothing.
But interesting reading none the less.
If I happen to see Tim Wagner, I'll see if I can get his take, since it sounds like he at least has lead some of the pitches in question.
Though this has gone far enough, there may be no hope.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Stevep, no point in yet more first-hand, eye-witness testimony. The "other side" has so far refused to admit all such testimony.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:50am PT
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hey there say all... someone just mentioned in another post how they were going to set time aside to read "this whole thread" ... oh my...
when hearing "such" on ol' supertopo, seems this is a "need be" in "education" here... ;)
well, very interesting variety to be seen here on this subject, and glad i am adding it to my supertopo learning-and-appreciation of who you all are...
hhhmmm, and even now, i soaking-up the "odd twist" in the current that turns-up at times, and how you all seek to "tame them" in various ways:
*kind of like river-rafting... wow, no place like supertopo...
over and out, now... thanks for sharing, guys..
:)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:55am PT
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The Lois Virus....can it cross the blood brain barrier?
In this case LEB, your infestation might actually be mercy killing!
;=)
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 09:49am PT
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SG
rapell inspection is weak. Either climb the rout or STFU!! It realy is that simple.
I know nothing about this other than what I have gotten from these threads but your behavior is conssistant with someone who has a guilty concience. The loudest guy in the room is usually the one who did the deed. In this case that would make you the lowlife crapper?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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i'm rather certain the crapper is not in this room.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Nature is correct. Mark and Richard have told me the names of the two crappers, and one of them is KNOTT Steve Grossman. I know one of the crappers to see him, and he knows me, but the other I know nothing about. The one I know can still be found in Yosemite, but never on internet forums.
I am sure that if these guys were simply to apologize to Mark and Richard and accept their repeatedly presented olive branches, all would be forgiven, because that is the nature of Mark and Richard. It would be a sporting gesture on the crappers' part, for sure.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Richard, Mark,
At what point are you going to be happy and finished with this whole affair? You must know that you will never convince everyone and I suspect SG succeeding or failing on your route won't really end the discussion.
Is Victory out there for you? Vindication? At what point does it all end? At what point are you going to be happy?
Case in point: ME.
I wasn't in the Valley when this whole deal went down. I've done a few El Cap routes but I freak out on old school A3. I don't think I've ever placed a hook on anything less than a bomber incut flake. I'm not in position to argue about your route. I "heard", like everyone else did, that it was pretty much a bolt ladder and really wasn't too happy with that. I heard about the shitting affair and thought it was disgusting and childish. But hey, it didn't ruin my life, I went on and had many, many years of climbing. I even walked under your route few times and never even thought of it!
So, I've read this whole thread. I'm one of those guys who basically trust people. You've laid out what you did. I trust you're not lying. I believe you. Some other pretty experienced climbers have been up on your route and have found it to be pretty hard and not "botched". I trust them. I'm done with it. I ain't going up there, that's for dang sure so it really makes no difference to me.
All in all, I've now learned something about your route. I've made a decision and I'm done. I'll probably still walk under your route and not even think about it!
So I'm one guy you've changed from "didn't really care" and "I've heard the route was botched" to "still doesn't really care" and "it seems the route wasn't botched".
What now? When does it end?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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Well i am wrong for sugesting that the crapper was SG but that is also something that he brought on himself by being so venament against these guys. It simply looks bad.
I will stick to my guns on the rest of it though. If you are going to call these guys out the way you have there is realy only 2 honorable options left to you. Climb the rout or apologize.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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I think a rap inspection would be a bad idea. It would say nothing about the quality of the climbing, but would allow ample opportunity to see any modification of the rock which could have come after the FA.
A ground up ascent is the only way to see what the route is all about. I suspect SG would be impressed with the difficulty of the climbing and see the route in a new light, just like Royal did on WOEML.
Please SG, climb it!!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Wes, that is so fckin weak... there is a pitch here in VT called the Great Corner 10c I have rapped it a few times and thought to myself. heck that ain't so bad. I have followed it a bunch of times and thought, that ain't so bad.. then I go to lead it and it kicked my ass!
If you are gonna bitch about how easy or hard or over bolted a climb is you either have to lead it or eat crow. There ain't no other fair and honorable solution.
You can't rappel a climb and then spout off about how easy or over bolted it is without acting like a totall ass. You can't even follow a climb and diss it with a clean concience. Realy simple stuff. Allways has been since the beginning of climbing. Lead it or STFU.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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tradman -- SG's affair is not about how hard but about the "enhancements".
That's the sum substance of his "thing"
Or am I wrong?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
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Pretty much seems to be the entire rout. too many bolts, to many enhancements, not a valid line, etc, etc. etc. The bolt count has been a huge part of the triad. The only way to answer those questions fairly is to lead it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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SG has made a big stink about all aspects of WOS most notably that it has too many enhancements and bolts and took too long to climb as well as it not being a valid line.
I am only pointing out what he has bitched about.
Wescrist You don't have to do a climb to comment on the content of someones internet posts you nitwit....
You do have to do a climb to comment negativly about a climbs merits.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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what coz said....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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I have a deep suspicion that the LEB house wife lady of old is long gone and the new LEB is a troll.. the style of posting has realy changed a lot in the last few months. its still long winded but just seems so diferent. Please don't bother to explaine as i realy don't care.
back to your question which is too valid to be an origional LEB question.
When a climb fails to see a repete ascent over a long period of time it is generaly for the folowing reasons.
#1 its too hard.
#2 it's too scary.
#3 too remote. to big of a hike etc.
Repeting a climb in faster time with less equiptment is realy not a fair judgement simply because the 2nd ascent does not have to do as much physical and mental work as the first ascent party.
If i build a road through the jungle in 3 weeks and you drive it in 3 hours are you actually better at road building than I am? its apples and oranges to a certain extent.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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LEB, leave the fixed hardware thing alone. Don't even go there. Its just too complicated. I do not think that WOS is all that remote? But I have never been there so WTF do I know. If it is not remote then we are talking about it either being too hard or too scary or both.
Talking about how it could have been done diferently is so much BS because it couldn't even be repeted the way it was done.
LEB. You are wrong in thinking that fixed hardware is bad. Without fixed hardware most of the climbs on El cap would not exist. many people have many diferent opinions about how fixed hardware is to be used. What is good and bad are simply diferent peoples opinions.
In this case NO ONE other than the FA party has a right to voice opinion on the merits or lack there of of the fixed gear on WOS because NO One other than the FA party has actually climbed the thing.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=ODM8NTo8OCc,
OMFG..... 14000 posts?!?!?!1111169
And to think I've read a grand total of 2 of them.
-knott to mention the several hundred It made as howweirddean starting from just a few weeks after It "left for good"...
BTW, the new Magic Mouse is great - makes scrolling past It's long-winded posts a real breeze!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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Wanna bet?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Louis. Could it have been done better? the answer probobly is quite simply NO. The climb has stood the test of time. Allmost 30 years and no repete. For that type of climb this is the ultimate acolade. Its so bad assed that it never got repeted. Seems like a few folks made some excuses as to why they didn't do it even though they could have if they wanted to but that don't fly. Climbing in this regard has a black and white line drawn in the sand. Either you did or you did not climb it. Could have, would have, and should halve do not count in this sport. This is no diferent than saying you could have climbed the last 50ft of the summit mushroom but didn't.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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All climbs are forced, Some just a bit more than others;)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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if i could crap on a pile of these threads all coiled up at the base, i'd pound some peets and drop trou in a heartbeat
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:50pm PT
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I wish I could dig up the old thread where we went into excruciating detail educating LEB on "how climbing works" just more advanced than "How do you get the rope up there?"
Largo wanted to send her climbing with me.
The death of a thousand cuts continues....
PEace
Karl
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 27, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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LEB, good posts, you are zeroing in...
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Nov 27, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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I hope the bolt chopping can wait 'til I collect the SA bounty.... dry tooling is kosher, right?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 27, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Oh I don't know about that. I thought this was all about WOS
"was"
and who the hell is longo?
that ol' r key is a lorg ways from that n key.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 27, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Ray,
You are like someone who comes to my house, and feeds my dog table scraps, thus encouraging it to beg, and continue behaviour nobody else finds enjoyable.
"The death of a thousand cuts" Laughing out loud at that one, Karl!
The person I thought might have been one of the shitters, emailed me to tell me he was knott one of the shitters, and said he'd tell me more in person in the spring.
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.
LOIS - At first I thought you could resist. STFU
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 29, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Richard/Mark (if you're there): Did you guys take a file on the climb? There doesn't seem to be one listed on the pages that Steve posted from your book.
Edit: I can't help adding that on the internet, it's usually a mistake to click on anything with the word "enhance" in it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Nov 29, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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LOIS - At first I thought you could resist. STFU Matty - just because HowWeirdLois is a frumpy, upper middle-aged NON CLIMBER who expounds ad nauseam on things It
knows nothing about––when It should be tending to It's tulips––doesn't mean you should pick on It. Where's the humanity?
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Must....not.....let....Lois....kill.......this.........................................................thread!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Hey, in addition to the route beta and trip report tabs, can we create a LOIS tab and just file LOIS away ????
Cracko
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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that would be a big file!
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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That would be awesome!
IDEA OF THE YEAR.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Oct 27, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
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Damn I love this thread
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 27, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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holy 2009 batman!
get it, holes, get it? Munge make funny.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Oct 28, 2014 - 06:19am PT
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i'm a woodsman by trade
and, uh.
recently i was standing there
admiring a mountainscape
and suddenly i was beckoned by
kin not my own
and in complete surrender
i let them gnomes
hang a wood cross on me.
my arms out wide;
legs slightly askew
these creatures told me
that this cross was
the savior of the tree kingdom
and that they worshiped it
and needed a medium upon which
to sacrifice their holy tree.
i conceded, for i'm on the other
end of the religious spectrum.
mostly i'm just a mountain zealot
and quite open to new experiences
in them woods.
so they hung the cross on me
i tried to talk them through
a bowline-on-a-bight but
they got all tangled up in their
vines and quite frusterated
they resorted to hammering holes
through my hands and feet;
not quite a clean ceremony
but they promised me
fern berry wine in a peace gesture.
so like a thousand moments went by
and the tree hung on me;
my gnome friends came daily
to pray to the tree and feed me -
edibles and fermented ferns.
where once i was wanted in the human bible
for sorcery or some other unsubstantiated accusation,
now i'm a backdrop in the gnome bible,
with the merry breezes whistlin through
my hands and feet.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 28, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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Nothing to say about WoS, but congratulations to Norwegian on another interesting poem. I'm becoming a real fan.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Oct 28, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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I second what mcreel said. Norwegian, that was great. It's worth taking the extra time to read your stuff.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 28, 2014 - 09:28am PT
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Weege, sorry we missed you when we were wine tasting in Placerville. Anita said she tried to get you.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 10:00am PT
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I was needing a bard-song from the Norwegian Woods.
Put down your beaten maul.
Raise your toasted pen
Craft monuments of verse
Carved from stone
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| Messages 1 - 434 of total 434 in this topic |
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