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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 2, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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i thought it would be fun to have some old tidbits of gear history passed on, so who knows what EB stood for, and where they were made?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Edouard Bourdonais
Probably spelled incorrectly, but it was the dude's name.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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bourdonneau.
after he and pierre allain split, allain began to make PAs.
Then Rene Desmaison did RDs.
etc. etc.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Ed Bannister?
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Gots to be fast in these parts eKat
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Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
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Super Gratton!
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Xavier LEGENDRE
Sport climber
Marseille
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EB stands for Edouard Bourdonneau , the french master boot maker , who , together with Pierre Allain , manufactured the first climbing shoe in 1947 .
During the fifties , he created the brand EB which became the "gold standards" of climbing rock shoes in the sixties and seventies .
The brand died in 1986 after the arrival of the spanish made"Firé " and its sticky rubber which rendered the "old" EB obsolete .
But , in 1992 , with a new owner , EB started again to manufacture climbing shoes ( although very different from its ancestors...)up to this day ...
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Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
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Kat,
It's french code for:
"Badass rock shoe designed by master French bootmaker".
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"gratton" in climbing slang is a hold.
as in, "Those petits grattons on the traverse were sick, yo."
i've also heard folks use it as a gerund.
"gratton" in a different context is a crispy bit of fried pork, bacon, duck or goose fat.
mmmmmmmmm, bacon
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Xavier LEGENDRE
Sport climber
Marseille
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A "gratton " was the name given by Fontainebleau climbers for a very tiny edge you literally had to " scratch" the rock to find .
The verb "gratter" is translated by "to scratch" .
The "super gratton" were the best edging shoes you could climb with during two decades .
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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The english cognate is probably "to grate"
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matty
climber
po-dunk
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FA = Fred Astaire?
Wow, he did a lot of routes, with a lot of different partners too. I see FA all over the place.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Xavier and the rest for that matter are correct, but we can add that Ed, as I like to call him, had a Father who owned a shoe factory, so the opportunity was there for a climber to say Dad I want to build a shoe.
Mike Sturm, who originated the Eiger brand in the US was designated as the sales rep for EB in the US. Mike also happened to be the buyer for Liberty Mountain Sports.
Mike had a sweet deal, he wrote the orders for all US import of EBs, then he was paid a 10% sales commission for selling them!
The commission checks were deposited into a Swiss account.
Mike lived like a king twice a year as he traveled to Europe on Liberty's expense account to visit ISPO in Munich, and then supplemented his lifestyle with the Swiss account as he visited various manufacturers such as Edelrid, Stubai, CAMP and Bonaiti.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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All I knew was Super Grattons were far superior to the standard grattons (which were apparently before my time).
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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The first models of the blue and white rock boot that appeared in the UK were in fact named PA after Pierre Allain. The letters PA were stamped on the small circle of white suede leather as were the EB's.
Only after the blue and white PA disappeared did the EB emerge.
PA's also re appeared in red and black I think.
In the UK when EB appeared in blue and white it was thought at first that Ellis Brigham, a gear store and whloesale supplier in Manchester, had had his name put on them. This was seemingly untrue but I'm sure they rode the wave for sometime.
As a matter of interest the MOAC chock was named after Ellis Brigham's wholesale store - MOuntain ACtiities.
Howard.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I got my first pair of EBs in the early seventies at the Rock and Snow shop in New Paltz.
The clerk kept asking how they felt and exchanging them for smaller sixes till I said "they hurt like hell and I couldn't walk in them". "Perfect" he said "Will that be cash or charge" he quickly added.
Once I got past the bleeding cuticles those babies could really climb.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Essentially Buttscooting. At least thats what people climbing them seem to be doing.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mike lived like a king twice a year as he traveled to Europe on Liberty's expense account to visit ISPO in Munich, and then supplemented his lifestyle with the Swiss account as he visited various manufacturers such as Edelrid, Stubai, CAMP and Bonaiti.
thanks for that detail. tell us more about gear marketing in the 50s and 60s, if you have the time.
interesting period, between the army-surplus days and the emergence of so many north american makers.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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IMHO You never could really edge with EB's, it was more a matter of "smearing" on the edge. That's why I preferred RD's, they had more of a corner for edging (for an friction shoe). Of course if we're talking edging, Shoenards were the answer, not so good on friction though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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My first friction shoes were RD's. I eventually had them resoled with some high tech groovy rubber like green eye or something....
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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PAs were imported and distributed by Royal Robbins, so he would be the one to fill in the blanks on the PA and the RR for that matter.
Mike Sturm was quite a guy, he had Stanley and later his son Peter Brozek in Pasadena make the Eiger and later the Liberty carabiner, what a piece of junk. When I went to work for Liberty as Technical product manager, I had KC Putnam deal with Brozek, I did not want to be associated in any way with that carabiner, and yes, if you still have any, take them off your rack.
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duncan
Trad climber
London, UK
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Bourdonneau originally made shoes for Pierre Allain, then set up on his own, hence the similarity between the blue/grey EBs and red/black PAs. EBs had a Microsoftesque market domination (in the UK at least) from the 60s to 1980. None of the occasional competitors approached their standard and all were swiftly crushed underfoot.
Around 1980, Bourdonneau switched to a moulded rubber sole to speed-up production. A marketing move even more disastrous than New Coke. The new versions were completely shit! Their bulbous toes had a void which meant they lost their legendary feel and edging power and the rubber was anti-sticky. Desperate climbers drove around the country buying multiples of remaining stock in their size.
Finally, there was an opportunity for competitors and several pretenders were found brief favour before Firés arrived. The market had changed for ever though and no one brand ever ruled in the way EBs did.
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Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
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Can understand a prototype not working out,
part of the process.
But, that the "master" bootmakers actually missed
how totally BAD the moulded sole was - even though
it was obvious to many just by looking - destroyed the
brands credibility and short term market monopoly.
Too bad really, not a bad looking product.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Hey eKat, where you working there when Mike Pope was there?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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More like SMEDGEING, your stepping on it!
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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ditto what Jaybro said:
1st pair of frictions were PA's then on to EB's.
One season in the Valley I was in need of a 'get to the end of the season' shoe, for cheap.
I got a pair off a Frenchman in camp, for 20 bucks.
They were called 'Paragot'.
Named after yet another famous Frenchman.
Not a bad shoe, a little thick in the toe area but good rubber, a steal of a deal @ $20.00
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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The techniques we learned for climbing in EB's could also be lost after a few years of climbing with sticky rubber. In the early 90's 3 of us were at the upper Town Wall at Index and decided to climb "Bravo Jean Marc, 5.11a". One of the guys had just bought an unused pair of EB's (blue/white) to remember/perverse the old days. This was a route he could walk in sticky rubber and evidently well within his ability BITD.
His current technique had learned to rely on the characteristics of modern shoes, so he ended up flailing and I don't think ever made the crux. Naturally after changing shoes, he floated the route.
What was learned, can be forgotten....
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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eKat,
i still own a pair of new looking eb's size 43.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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They were called 'Paragot'.
Named after yet another famous Frenchman.
That would be Robert Paragot, as in West Pillar of Makalu among others.
20 bux must've been the going rate, 'cuz that's what I paid for a pair in C4. They were wider than the EBs, with a gray leather and vermilion canvas upper. They had a natural-colored sole (like an eraser), that didn't heat up as quickly as that black EB rubber.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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EB's, one foot on a Banana peal the other on a skateboard!
Crusher styling in EB's,
Stoney
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Michael Lecky
Mountain climber
Harvard, MA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:30am PT
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I believe that all those shoes were manufactured by Galibier, but I could be wrong. I climbed in PA's, named after Pierre Allain, which had red uppers, and, as I remember, 90 durometer soles. Then along came the 60-durometer EB's, which blew the PA's out of the water in terms of smearing, although the PA's edged better. There was also the "RR," for Royal Robins, which was designed for aid climbing. A bright blue boot with a stiff shank that would provide comfort while standing in etriers. There was also an RD, and a BB, as I dimly remember, but it's all a bit fuzzy.
All the aforementioned shoes were "high tops," in current sneaker parlance.
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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If you glued leather onto the canvas uppers, they would last more than a week.
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ambrose
Trad climber
Magalia, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
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I always thought it was ego booster. I bought a pair in modesto on the way up to the valley and led shakey flakes
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Rick Linkert
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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I thought it has something to do with "Excruciatingly Buttwrenchinglypainfull." At the time, however, they were magical. One of the most terrifying pre-EB days I can recall was an outing on Patio Pinnacle in a pair of brand new Royal Robbins blue suede shoes. It was like climbing with anesthetized feet and glued on linoleum soles. I also learned that applying a liberal amount of suntan lotion without thoroughly washing one's hands does not mix well with climbing.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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I also learned that applying a liberal amount of suntan lotion without thoroughly washing one's hands does not mix well with climbing.
Too funny, Rick! I, too, first climbed Patio in RR's, so I know the feeling quite well.
I knew about EB's from the late 60's when Dolt was selling them, but I had three pairs of PA's first. The first time I tried EB's on the Apron was in spring of 1973. You and someone else (I don't remember who) were on Pt. Beyond Direct, and Richard Harris and I were trying a FA that was to become Cold Fusion. I thought the EB's were magic, and instantly understood why people were referring to them as E.B. Super Cheaters.
To this day, though, I don't think any shoe edged better than a P.A. The rubber was much harder than that of EB's. In fact, in some ways, climbing in PA's was like climbing in a lighter RR, but with a much snugger fit that gave absolute confidence on tiny edges. Of course, smearing was a different story.
John
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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Eric Brand. RIP
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Rick Linkert
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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John-
I agree about PA's and edging- they were great at Indian Rock. My first pair were purchased at Westridge on the way to JT. I laced them up and took off on some OW. I reached the top with bloody ankles and no canvas. It seems like stoneage now, but I remember being irritated to have to hand-stitch leather on every pair of PA's or EB's before using them for any crack climbing.
My shoe list dates me:
Pivetta hiking boots - the kind Chuck Pratt used on Twilight Zone - yikes!
Kronhoffers
Spiders
PA's
RD's
RR's
Gollies
EB's
And the rest is history begining with spanish rubber Fires.
Rick
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 30, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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Ambrose had it! Ego Boosters!!!!
(of course, I climbed many classic routes in Colorado and
the in the east in my red/black PA's)!
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Bobert
Trad climber
boulder, Colorado
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Aug 30, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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I used to buy boxes of EBs from Bourdonneau. My brit friends persisted in calling them PAs. They were, of course PAs before Pierre Allain jumped ship and went to Galibier to produce a vastly inferior shoe. Eduard, realizing he had the real goods figured what the heck? Call em EBs. By any other name they still killed my feet, but the climbing world loved them. And then came Fires.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 31, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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EBs were awesome.
When I was a Valley noob, Peter Haan insisted we drive down in Peter's weird VW bus (doors on either side) to Robbins' shop in Modesto to get my(our?) first pair. Then he taught me to use an awl and sat their while I sewed on the suede patches.
Then I could climb better. Really, more than any other shoe, they seemed to make the difference for me. I missed Fires, because I hurt my shoulder and stopped climbing just before they came out.
Darwin
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 31, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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EB (Edouard Bourdonneau) Super Gratton
These boots have had some wear but there is still plenty left! These are a piece of climbing history! EB stands for Edouard Bourdonneau , the French master boot maker , who , together with Pierre Allain , manufactured the first climbing shoe in 1947 . During the fifties , he created the brand EB which became the "gold standard" of climbing rock shoes. A "gratton " was the name given by Fontainebleau climbers for a very tiny edge you literally had to " scratch" the rock to find . The verb "gratter" is translated as "to scratch" . The "super gratton" is the best edging shoe you can climb with. (described by Colin on eBay)
- 1947: Pierre Allain, renowned French climber who frequents Fontainbleau Forest boulders, outside of Paris, experiments with lightweight kletterschuhe
- 1949: PA teams up with Emile Bourdonneau, a fellow climber, whose family own a shoe factory
- 1950: First commercial slipper-style rubber rockclimbing shoe is produced under the joint collaboration. Shoe has the appearance of high-top basketball shoe with lacing to the toe, and a fully randed sole. Colour was navy blue cotton canvas with white suede leather reinforcing. The initials "PA" are stamped in a circular leather inner ankle pad.
- ????: Pierre Allain takes his name to the French mountain boot company, Galibier, who produce the PA with black canvas and red suede leather. Emile Bourdonneau retains rights to produce the original shoe, which is technically superior to the new Galibier PA, but now brands it “EB.” [Super Gratton refers to an exceedingly fine edge that almost required scratch the rock surface to find.
Described on inov8.au.com: http://www.inov8.au.com/compass/ebsupergrattonhistory.html |
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 11:12am PT
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I was personally fitted for my first pair by Bruce Carson at Royal's shop
where I had hied myself tout de suite after being shown how it was properly
done on the Apron by Ellie Hawkins. I tried to keep up with her in my RR's.
I mean, I didn't embarrass myself except in terms of effort expended compared
to her waltzing matilda like on the light fantastic. Talk about getting religion!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 31, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
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Chouinard introduced me to Zillertal klettershue in the 1950s. They were excellent for edging. Wonder what their history is?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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After mountain boots, I started with Soldas, a strictly East Coast phenomenon made by Gino Solda. The shoes found their way to Camp and Trails in NYC because Hans Kraus was friendly with Gino Solda.
The shoes were crappy in every imaginable way. Next came Zillertals (I skipped Krohhofers), then Spiders, then RD's, then EB's, then RR's, then Fires, then a host of short-lived brands I can't remember, black and yellow, pink and green, etc. etc. The next advance was slip rather than board-lasting, and then came various rand-tensioning schemes and finally downturned toes.
Sticky rubber was, of course...stickier...but the major contribution it made to technique was that you could move your foot considerably and not have it blow off a hold. With the old rubber, your feet had to be carefully placed and then not moved at all or you'd be off. Being able to move your feet while standing on them made the modern backstepping techniques effective and opened the door to much more sideways-facing climbing.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Jan 31, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
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I had always heard that EB was Ellis Brigham. Not disputing this thread, but where did this name come from?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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In his book Camp 4, Steve Roper says that Ellis Brigham was the original designer of EB's, an assertion that appears to be wrong. Ellis Brigham was and is a major British climbing retailer, so when selling EB's the potential for confusion would be great.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Those of us who didn't get the memo on EB's were working with Galibier.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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EBs….never put em back on after Fire's showed up.
Too scared to.
What about those Shoenard rigs?
Weinstein edged up the hardest Apron routes in the original dark suede ones (Diamond Points?) and I think Wunsch used them on Jules Verne.
Later Vasque made a tan version.
You could front point on dimes in those things.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Here's an interesting tidbit about EB's. Remember how, as you wore them, they seemed to curl up and get tighter and tighter? The problem was that they had a rubber barrier in the fabric which did not allow the shoes to breath very well. Also, they had a piece of uncured leather which ran the length of the shoe between the rubber and the insole.
As you sweated in the EB's the uncured leather got wet and subsequently shrunk causing the shoes to shrink as well. The reason why they manufacturer used uncured leather was because of import tariffs. I the leather had been cured (as was the case with fine European dress shoes) the leather would not have shrunk, but the tariff would have been much higher causing the price of the shoes to rise as well.
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