Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 34 of total 34 in this topic |
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 7, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
|
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090803005150&newsLang=en
MAMMOTH LAKES, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--After a successful first winter season, Horizon Air is expanding air service to the Mammoth Mountain resort for the upcoming snow season. In addition to adding a second daily nonstop from Los Angeles, Horizon will offer new daily nonstop service from San Jose and Reno and direct (same-plane, one-stop) service from Seattle and Portland.
The Mammoth Mountain resort area is just 15 minutes from the Mammoth Lakes Yosemite airport. During last year’s inaugural season of service, thousands of Southern Californians took advantage of Horizon's 70-minute flight from Los Angeles instead of enduring five hours or more of driving.
"Our Southern California customers have made no secret of how much they’ve appreciated having such quick and easy access to this world-class recreation area," said Dan Russo, Horizon's vice president of marketing and communications. “Now, with Horizon Air’s expanded service, winter sports enthusiasts from Northern California and the Pacific Northwest will be able to enjoy the same convenience.”
The new service from Northern California and the Pacific Northwest is expected to introduce thousands of new visitors to Mammoth – many of whom would not have considered it for a winter vacation otherwise. Similarly, travelers from the town of Mammoth will gain an easier way to travel, with nonstop service to Los Angeles, Reno and San Jose, and direct (same-plane, one-stop) service to Seattle and Portland.
“The new and expanded routes on Horizon for next season put Mammoth within easy reach of thousands of skiers and snowboarders who love to play big in the mountains and have dreamed of visiting Mammoth for years,” said Howard Pickett, CMO of Mammoth Mountain. "Our guests loved the flights from Los Angeles last year and they asked us for even more flight options. With this expansion into Northern California, Reno and the Pacific Northwest, we are doing our best to deliver on that request."
Horizon is offering special low fares for flights on select days between Mammoth and each city. Fares start at $49 each way from Reno, $69 from San Jose or Los Angeles, $144 from Portland, and $149 from Seattle.
The Mammoth winter season flight schedule shown below will run from Dec. 17, 2009, through April 11, 2010
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
Wow, they've been trying to make commercial air traffic into Mammoth happen for years...wonder if it will stick, and what the locals think about it?
|
|
Wallaby
climber
the star gazing rock
|
|
wow! and to think that sometimes I would do the 8+ hr. drive from the bay area....
w
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
|
|
Wow! I didn't even know they had an airport that would support that kinda traffic, or those kinds of planes. I'm sure there's quite a few locals not so happy about this. Wonder what we'll run into the ground after Mammoth?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
As I understood it, the major hurdle had to do with the length and type of the runway, and the constant winds on the east side. The current airport was built for smaller craft, but was upgraded at some point. Will be interested to hear from an informed local on this...
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
|
|
Driving is a better idea.
If your car breaks, you can just pull over.
A plane......not so much.
Those Horizon planes are Swedish prop jobs.
Have fun!
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
|
Prop = scare factor 9
especially in winter
|
|
crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
|
|
Wish they wouldn't.
Actually I'm surprised they were approved for more flights after (I think) the environmentalists won some earlier restrictions based on pollution, noise, etc.
I did hear that a lot of these flights last season were subsidized by the new owners of Mammoth Mountain Ski Area and that sometimes there were only a couple of people on board. Wonder how long they'll be able to afford that - esp. if this ski season is as slow as last years.
Fill us in Eastside peeps...
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
So Boys, it's tempting .... but are yo saying lynne should drive the 6-8 hours from Sun Diego ? I want to know the odds. Not that it really matters. Guess when you're dust...you are.
|
|
Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Corona, Ca.
|
|
Lame-Good place should NOT be easy to get to.....
|
|
Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
|
|
Really doesnt effect Mammoth much . 40 seater 3 or 4 planes a day. Thats not a lot of bed rentals.
I have had some friends take it and although the flight time is short, the travel time to the airport ( LAX ) and the arrive early crap makes it a couple of hours+ easily.
I would drive to see Whitney and the Eastside as its part of the charm.
Also its a hassle to have such a short flight and have lots of luggage and skis.
I am all for the flights as options are good.
The airline has had shut down on a few heavy snow days and you may get stuck for a few days if you cant escape via a car.
These depend on the ballon rubber wing slots that fill with air to break the ice , not heated wings.
I think it was one of the same planes that went down tragically last winter on the East Coast . Very scary .
The airport was closed for several months last year to widen and lengthen.
I am looking forward to the day that 300 seaters can land in the Bishop Airport.
Money in the Bank !!!!!!!
|
|
james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
|
|
All part of the long term plan since the village went in. East West, American ski corp, Booth Creek etc. I refer to them as the evil empire. Read "Down Hill Slide". Truckee is going through the same shite. Mammoth will never be the same, and neither will my town. Phuck whitey.
It starts with the 40 seater, Then grows like a parasite.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
"Those Horizon planes are Swedish prop jobs"
That got my interest as I thought Saab 340's were long gone from the commercial scene.
The linked article notes they are useing "76-seat Bombardier Q400s". I'm happy to hear that as that is a most excellent rig for that route and airport. They're built like brick you-know-whats, they'll handle the turbulence better than a regional jet due to lower wing loading, and most importantly they don't need as much runway as a jet.
ps
They're also 'greener' than a jet: better mileage and lower operating costs per seat mile.
|
|
HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
|
|
The way I understood it they originally were going to do it in Bishop, but the town said F-that. A part of me doesn't like the idea, but it would make a quick get away that much easier.
|
|
JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
|
|
Timid,
UAX, West Air did the Fresno MMH run, sure wish I had done that one. Lucky you!
|
|
midi510
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes
|
|
I've lived in Mammoth most of the last 46 years, I suppose I'm a local. The airport was expanded through an FAA grant and was designed to handle at least 707s. Because of noise, other environmental issues, changing economy, etc. we've ended up with the twin turboprop by Bombardier. It's not an old beater, but one of the most advanced planed in it's class. A turboprop is the ideal plane for this application. I'm a licensed aircraft mechanic and feel fine flying on it.
As far as impact goes, from a local's point of view, I don't care how people get here, I just don't like it when it's too busy. Local government's a joke when it comes to planning. People used to adapt to the mountain environment because they didn't like living in the city. Now it's a little city in the mountains. City people and their city ways. If people fly in and use public transpo, things might be better while local businesses still keep afloat.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
On the surface, it looks like a good idea, but several issues arise, such as increased traffic around Mammoth/June Lakes, environmental concerns, noise (though the Q-400 is suppose to be quite quiet - that's sort of a tongue twister, say it fast five times, quite quiet quite quiet quite quiet quite quiet quite quiet), and the fact that if one wants to go ice climbing at Lee Vining, June Lake etc, one would have to rent a car.
Since I live in Ireland for the time being, it does not concern me greatly about an increased air service, but then, I'm not a local.
|
|
mark miller
Social climber
Reno
|
|
Reno to Mammoth? I'd rather drive then go through the airport with my gear and all the BS security( at least that's what hey call it). What's the driving time 3.5 hrs? Airport time, flight time and driving time from airport to Mammoth 2hrs (on the best side). Knott much savings there.
|
|
DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Living in Mammoth, I like having air transport available. I travel frequently in my work, and my carbon footprint is much larger than I would like it to be because of the driving. One problem in Mammoth is the lack of ANY regular, frequent public transport either north to Reno or south to LA. There is a 3x per week bus to Reno, and south there is a 3x per week bus to Ridgecrest. Not even Greyhound runs along the east side anymore. If you want to do a trans-Sierra hike or ski trip, your options are to intersect with the infrequent bus service, hitchhike, or make some sort of car arrangement.
You do need to read the fine print in the announcement. The expanded service starts in December and will likely run just through the main part of the ski season.
The flight itself is spectacular. The current route from LAX to Mammoth crosses the Sierra just south of Mt Tom. The plane is already starting to descend at that point, and you are below the summit of Mt Tom. It is true that the airport at Mammoth can be tricky; there is a single runway, and Convict Canyon points right at the middle of it. There are three wind socks along the runway next to the highway, and often they point in three different directions. In bad conditions, though, the planes have the option to land in Bishop.
Perhaps the most annoying aspect of the air service has been the hype. If you add up all the proposed flights, you get 200-300 more people in town on the weekends. Bringing a few more people to town during the week is positive; you add revenue to the town’s businesses without having to enlarge the infrastructure. Air service will not save the Mammoth economy; depression of the real estate market and the decline in visitor days are caused by larger, nationwide issues. But it won’t destroy Mammoth’s character either; the skiing (both resort and backcountry) and climbing will still be great, and the town has long had a trashy, strip-mall ambiance. A friend of mine who came to Mammoth after a two-decade absence was asked what he thought; his reply was, “The Mountain is great, the town sucks, just like 20 years ago.”
Marketing of any product has to balance between hubris and analysis. In Mammoth, the balance is a bit out of whack. The name of the damned airport is the “Mammoth-Yosemite Airport,” despite the fact that commercial service is available only in winter, when Yosemite is a seven-hour drive.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
Mid510 and DrDeeg,
Since you both are Mammoth locals and Mid510 you know a lot about avaition, shouldn't flying into Mammoth really be based on safety and its effects on the environment first?
Have either of you read the book: "Exploring the monster: Mountain lee waves : the aerial elevator" by Robert F Whelan?
http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-monster-Mountain-aerial-elevator/dp/1891118323
Mountain flying is very serious business.
They came to the Sierras to study the phenomenon of the Sierra Wave, since it occurs here on such a regular basis. As you both are probably aware, the Sierra Wave can slap an aircraft out of the sky like the hand of God. It is usually marked by the classic lenticular waves of the classic Sierra Wave, but it can happen on an absolutely clear blue sky day and pilots would be none the wiser unless they are clued into the upper level winds and what they are doing with respect to wind direction and velocity. It is the rotor cloud that gets you, and that usually sets up right over the Owens Valley or just East of the the Sierra Crest. Isn't that where the Mammoth-Yosemite airport is?
Many an aircraft have gone down in the Sierras over the years due to micrometeorology conditions of updrafts and down drafts that easily exceeed the ability of the airacraft. I repeat, mountain flying is dangerous.
Steve Fosset is a case in point. The NTSB/FAA investigation finally determined it was downdrafts that exceeded his plane's ability that sent him into the ground. Steve was a very experienced pilot and knew mountain weather flying. He flew sailplanes and thermalled, and flew lee-side waves for altitude records. At least when I fly paragliders in the "Big-O" and the Sierras, I pick the exact time. I have no set schedule. I know the upper level winds and local conditions, I'm already there to personally see the conditions. I don't fly in adverse weather. And I fly with a reserve parachute. Can commercial aircraft do all of this for Sierra flying? Seems a gamble to me. And then a gamble with other peoples lives who can't make these decisions for themselves after the pilot leaves the ground.
Steve Fosset's full accident report from NSTB:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081007X17184&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20081007X17184&ntsbno=SEA07FA277&akey=1
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
^^^^Word. I won't repeat my story of nearly crashing in the U-Notch from downdraft.
Landing crosswind at Mammoth = Fear Factor 10.
Flying low over the Crest = Priceless.
As a former local, we long ago began referring to Mammoth as a Sacrifice Zone. Bring 'em in any which way; doesn't matter. Better to keep the sleek Newport Beachers corralled there than dispersed up every canyon on the Eastside. Check it out: during the 50s ski resort schemes sprouted up for nearly every roadhead.
If you want someone to blame, try starting with the Inyo Good Roads Club, formed by locals in 1917. They volunteered with primitive equipment and brought the travel time from LA down under two days. The Little Lake Hotel got so desperate it turned into a whorehouse.
Or try Norman Clyde, who shamelessly publicized the High Sierra, including the skiing, in magazine after magazine.
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
I don't have the stats, but it seems to me that at least as many planes have gone down around Mammoth because of disregarding fundamentals such as density/altitude and fuel loads. Yes, flying is dangerous - so is driving! I for one welcome the flights, which with their undeniable environmental impact, still constitute public transportation - a good alternative to driving. Furthermore it seems clear that the few hundred people who will arrive and depart by plane will not make or break either the local economy, or the quality of life.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
Steve Fosset died because he was asking for it. I've experienced the Sierra wave in a PA-28 but I wasn't 1000' AGL or less as Fosset was; it was teeth-rattling rough but of no danger. I've flown in other waves also and they are no problem if you know what you're doing and always give yourself an 'out'. The wave is no problem for a commercial flight because they also don't fly close to the ground. Encountering the wave might scare the bejeezus out of the pax but it ain't gonna bring down a Q400. That said it isn't out of the realm of possiblility that they could have probs on final if the wave takes a major dip but the two PW150A's 10,140 SHP would be plenty to pull out of any downdraft. If they suspected they could encounter such turbulence on short final their pre-final checklist would have them add 10% to their approach speed to deal with it.
That said the Rockies Wave likely played a major part in the crash of the UA 737 in Colorado Springs in the early 90's (?). The NTSB never fully agreed but as I recall it was a combination of a suspected wave encounter close to the ground and a rudder malfunction of the type which brought down the US Air 737 near Pittsburg.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
Here are some great resources on Mountain Lee Waves and the danger posed to pilots and aircraft:
What is a Sierra Wave?
http://esaudubon.org/leewave.htm
'MOUNTAIN WAVE
The Aeronautical Information Manual, paragraph 574 states, “Your first experience of flying over mountainous terrain, particularly if most of your flight time has been over the flatlands of the Midwest, could be a never-to-be-forgotten nightmare if you are not aware of the potential hazards awaiting … Many pilots go all their lives without understanding what a mountain wave is. Quite a few have lost their lives because of this lack of understanding. One need not be a licensed meteorologist to understand the mountain wave phenomenon.”
Perhaps other than IFR weather, nothing affects the pilot flying in the mountains more than the mountain wave.'
http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/mountain-flying/mtn_wave.html
"The Terrain-Induced Rotor Experiment (T-REX) is a meteorological research program supported by the U. S. National Science Foundation (NSF). The program is investigating the structure and evolution of atmospheric rotors that form in the lee of the Sierra Nevada Range of California over the Owens Valley. Rotors are atmospheric circulations or eddies that form in the lee of a mountain ridge and rotate around a horizontal axis that parallels the ridgeline. These energetic circulations, which are hazardous to aircraft, form in connection with strong background flows that cross the ridgeline barrier. They are usually found in combination with mountain and lee waves."
http://www.met.utah.edu/whiteman/T_REX/
Another good resource . . .
OBSTRUCTIONS TO WIND FLOW
http://www.aviationweather.ws/045_Obstructions_To_Wind_Flow.php
All good stuff. Very interesting . . .
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
The Mountain is great, the town sucks, just like 20 years ago.
The second to last time I was in Mammoth was in 1985 (ice climbing on East Side, I've never skied Mammoth, but then, I'm a shite skier). I went there again in August 1993, same old place, "gaudy". But of course the whole East Side is a great place, so a little gaudy I can take. I sort of wish I was there now, as Ireland is having a shite summer, again.
That said, even though it is overcast (it's half six in the morning) I am typing this in my (home) office looking out the window across Dublin Bay to Howth Head and the Bailey Lighthouse, so it's not that bad.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
I should have said I've 'driven' through a couple of rotors.
That's a big difference from the wave which can be so smooth
you don't even notice it. I'm not responsible for what comes out of my mouth lately. As long as you fly perpendicular to the rotor it is not likely to do much other than terrify the pax. If you try to parallel it then it can get more 'interesting' although not unmanageable as long as you don't over-correct which is the key to any turbulence flying.
Of course, that is the weak spot of flight management (read autopilots) systems. The computer tends to use too much rudder which tends to overstress the vertical stabilizer as in the NYC Airbus crash in '02 (?). I'm willing to put money on something similar ocurring to the recent Airbus accident.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
I have driven Owens Valley 395 so many times and have been buffeted from side to side by the rotor at ground level. Once it was so bad I had to slow my Toyota pick-up to about 20mph with my family on-board. I could see the rotor lifting dust as I drove North bound, and it flowing in a clockwise motion as the dust lifted near the Westside of the valley and descended toward the Eastside of the valley near the foothills of the Inyos. It would have been insane to be in the air at that moment. And guess what? There was an aircraft in the air at that time directly over 395 coming South, about 1000' over AGL. It looked like one of the Federal Express planes out of Bishop. We were just south of Lone Pine at the time. That plane was all over the place, the pilot flying seemed drunk: up, down, side to side, crabbing like mad back and forth. He was in the textbook spot where the air converges and ascends upward, but he must have been peeing his pants. I could not believe it. Wish I had video of that event.
Another time I was driving South and saw much the same thing but had my video camera with me and I could see a rotor cloud forming and dissolving over and over again. I pulled over and filmed. I have it on tape. I should sometime put together a short length video on the Sierra Wave phenomenon from the perspective of the ground. The forces at work are truly amazing and terrifying at the same time.
Very interesting stuff. I would love to soar the Sierra Wave sometime with a very experienced gliderpilot. Amazingly smooth when you get right into the sweet spot and massive altitude and lift. The X-Country miles just reel below surfing the wave. Some day. Some day.
|
|
DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Reply to Klimmer:
"Many an aircraft have gone down in the Sierras over the years due to micrometeorology conditions of updrafts and down drafts that easily exceeed the ability of the airacraft. I repeat, mountain flying is dangerous."
Indeed! It's the reason why the Sierra is such a mecca for hang-gliding. Launches off the road that goes up to Cottonwood Meadows can take a glider to 20,000+ feet. These folks glide with oxygen and sleeping bags.
The turbo-props that Horizon Air uses can handle the conditions pretty well, and as I noted in the earlier post, they have the option to land at Bishop where there are three runways.
Private planes are another matter. My friends who have planes look at the wind speed from the ski patrol's anemometer at the top of Mammoth Mountain (http://patrol.mammothmountain.com); as a more reliable indicator of conditions crossing the crest than information available from the FAA. Right now (I just looked) the wind is 11-12 mph, but they have recorded speeds as high as 170 mph.
Among the runs off the top at Mammoth is Monument. It is just west of Scotty's, and the monument is a stone pillar dedicated to Scotty, a patroller who died there in an avalanche in (I recall) 1967. The pillar has a pair of crossed skis, some old Head Standards. The pair there now is a replacement for the originals that the wind snapped in half a few years ago, during a storm when the AVERAGE wind speed on top was above 100 mph for five hours.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
DrD,
"Indeed! It's the reason why the Sierra is such a mecca for hang-gliding. Launches off the road that goes up to Cottonwood Meadows can take a glider to 20,000+ feet. These folks glide with oxygen and sleeping bags."
Yes but we fly with reserve parachutes also and we are not flying a load of passengers.
Ok, ok, I give.
But change the name of the airlines to "Extreme Air" and stamp the passenger ticket on the way out the door with a triple black-diamond, and tell them they just survived the hardest part of their vacation, as they lay prostrate on the tarmack kissing the concrete with glee babbling after experiencing some of that gloriuos micrometeorology. Or maybe call it "Heavenly Father Airlines," or "Allah Airlines," because no one is going to be an Atheist on the flight. Everyone including the pilot will be praying. Maybe that would be a good thing.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
I do not mean to bring up a sad moment, but was this 'rotor' perhaps something to do with Galen and Barbara's crash?
PS, I did not know Barbara but I did know Galen, may they rest in peace.
|
|
10b4me
Gym climber
Happy Boulders
|
|
Lame-Good place should NOT be easy to get to....
agreed, but as Doug says Mammoth is the sacrificial lamb for the rest of the Sierra.
Mammoth has spent the better part of the last thirty years trying to market itself to other parts of the country. problem is that the snow is way better in Utah, and Colorado.
Mammoth is(and will always) be a SoCal suburb.
I will be curious to see how many people will fly in from the PNW.
|
|
DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2009 - 07:52am PT
|
About the accident that killed Galen & Barbara Rowell, the pilot, and another passenger:
NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020819X01425&key=1
says probable cause was,
"The pilot's failure to maintain an appropriate terrain clearance altitude while maneuvering in the traffic pattern due to the sensory and visual illusions created by a lack of ground reference lights and/or terrain conspicuity, and the dark nighttime conditions."
(I recall the accident occurred about 1 a.m. Mammoth Airport has a lighted runway, which an approaching pilot can turn on via radio. I don't know about Bishop. Last winter all the commercial flights at Mammoth arrived and departed during daylight.)
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
If you look at the Horizon schedules for SoCal, it may not fit many schedules. No flight from San Diego and from LAX you either use up most of the morning or the whole afternoon the day before. You might not want to try to fly for good powder due to storm hazards. It is a pretty quick flight from LAX, and The return flight is better.
Depart LAX Arrive Mammoth Frequency
8:40 a.m. 9:50 a.m. Daily
2:40 p.m. 3:50 p.m. Daily
Depart Mammoth Arrive LAX Frequency
12:50 p.m. 1:59 p.m. Daily
5:50 p.m. 6:59 p.m. Daily
|
|
Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
|
The drive is half the reason for going. Although it would be nice to be there in two hours.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 34 of total 34 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!