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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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May 20, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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That's my work, and thanks. I was meaning to start spreading the work, but haven't had a chance yet. Unfortunately it doesn't look like I'll have time to follow all the boards, so if you have questions and don't mind posting them on RC I'll get to them sooner.
-aric.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 20, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Same sh#t, different batch, and the beat goes on...
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada, CA
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May 20, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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bump
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Hate to say it but Im still going to climb on mine. I just love the red alien, probably my favorite piece of gear, followed by yellow and green. Anyone out there going to abandon CCH based on this new information?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 21, 2009 - 06:39am PT
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I still have a yellow and a green but will NEVER buy annother CCH product. No reason buy Faliens with the new METELIOUS Master cam available.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 21, 2009 - 10:18am PT
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I always use my Aliens with a grain of salt free climbing. If I have a short runout to another placment I throw one in, if I have to run it out, I place two just to be sure. They are great for aid, very fast to place, love em.
I read this report and it looks like the guy put allot of time and effort into it. Therefore I question why he did not test new product instead of buying secondhand Aliens obviously used and battered to test. Seems a little unfair to CCH and throws the whole testing into question.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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May 21, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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Hey Guys, I'm finally catching up...
As I said over on RC my only concern is that there are obviously defective cams out there in the wild and climbing on untested ones is probably a bad idea. I don't particularly care if CCH stays in business or not and frankly I think Aliens are a good design, but unreliably made. Get them tested to whatever you're comfortable climbing over and have a bit of peace of mind that they won't explode.
-aric.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 21, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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^^^ That's awesome!
I have some Alien Hybrids. I'll never buy from CCH again, and the hybrids will be used under the assumption they won't necessarily hold a fall until I've tested them in some way that does not involve getting them "pull tested" by CCH.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 21, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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This is really an interesting topic.
Unfortunately we sure could use a lot more data.
There is certainly the issue of testing a sufficient sample to determine what the distribution of forces is to cause a failure in new gear. That is a question that probably should be done by an independent lab, with the results published for everyone to see. The question of who pays for the testing is interesting. If the manufacturers donate the gear and pay for the testing, will it be like the "rating agency" problem in the securities markets.
Another interesting question though is whether your used gear is ok. The concept of failure at a single force is fine assuming that the gear is discarded after a single test. If it is not, then it would be useful to understand how to determine whether to discard gear. Aircraft failures have occurred at within design envelope forces due to cycles of loading. We all know that you can break a wire if you keep bending it enough.
What does one bounce on a piece do? I suspect we would know a lot more about this if more people were constantly falling on gear at high loads.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 21, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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The intrigue over yonder certainly escalated. An outraged Alien fan and is discovered to have an IP address identical to that of the owner/inventor's wife.
I'm starting to feel like I'm in an abusive relationship w/ my Aliens that I just can't seem to leave.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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May 22, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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Hahahahaha... People are going to start wondering about all those bruises.
Curt
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 22, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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WheneverI find myself in Josh I always find time to fondle Locker's, popped head...
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 22, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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If all this is true, its probably the worst public relations nightmare for any climbing company.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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May 22, 2009 - 09:59am PT
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Hey guys,
Sorry for the confusion but there was a miscommunication in the IP info I got from the other user. I've posted retractions and explanations over on RC and I do not have IP confirmation that the user "Sogdiana" is actually Nadia@CCH.
While her posts are highly suspicious and came from an IP from the same provider as Nadia, I do not have absolute proof that they are one in the same.
My deepest apologies for the confusion.
-aric.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 22, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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I just love the story line, though. Redneck flunkie hits the big time with Faliens, picks out Russian mail order bride, ignores phone ringing off hook for 5 yrs straight.
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Impaler
Trad climber
Munich
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May 22, 2009 - 11:52am PT
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I already tested the only alien that I own (found at the base of ElCap) by taking a nice long whipper onto it (-:
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ct
climber
CO
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May 22, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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Not exactly new news here. Summary: Aliens work best, yet are fallible.
Caveat Emptor. As always.
Quite telling that the crew on this site just don't care (20 posts in 2 days?) while the other forum's members beat themselves into a lather. Again.
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jtanzman
climber
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May 26, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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"Quite telling that the crew on this site just don't care (20 posts in 2 days?) while the other forum's members beat themselves into a lather. Again. "
For once, the other guys are right.
Jay
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mucci
Trad climber
sf ca
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May 26, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Impaler, I happen to have just "tested" a booty alien from the base of EC...All good. Just make sure it's steep whilst whipping!
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ct
climber
CO
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May 26, 2009 - 09:04am PT
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"For once, the other guys are right.
Jay"
Or this board is just done with this dead horse. Yawn.
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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May 26, 2009 - 09:37am PT
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Funny JLP :)
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 26, 2009 - 11:54am PT
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I'm pretty interested in some more results from testing new cams rather than older cams with an unknown history. However, It needs to be a appropriate sample size. Whether you believe it is important or not is up to you but looking at all the aliens on my rack I think its important.
I know that all cams can break, that's not the issue here, its the apparent lack of QC and in-particular the brazing quality or lack of as shown on some recent cams.
I know that this has been going on a long time and it seems a lot of people on this site just don't care but sometimes you have to have an open mind.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Regardless of the origin of the Alien and the fact that it may be used, the braze shouldn't fail. I've seen some Metolius cams of Nathan Martin's that looked to have been ruthlessly worked and mangled in a combination of desert and big wall climbing to the point where there were mashed lobes and kinks and gaps in seperated stem wires. I would have still climbed over any of them confident that the brazes would hold up and the axle holes were drilled in the right places.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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May 26, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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This is an amazing and continuing saga. Someone should write it up for a Harvard Business school case study. How to totally blow a corporate recovery after being caught once. then twice - then thrice.
My suspicion is that the guy who runs CCH is just in way over his head. Doesn't seem to understand metallurgy, testing, 6 sigma, public relation, damage control, the economic value of your reputation et al.
If the units (by design) are as good as everyone seems to think (I have a few but they have been long since relegated to my aid rack, so I don't use them much) its amazing that somehow this problem hasn't been solved. The owners just need to hire someone who actually knows the business and the mechanics of producing defect free units - or (as someone posted above) license out a great design to a firm that has total quality control wired. If they would just fix the problem their sales would shoot up. As it is I don't know how they are hanging on with the majority of the climbing community losing faith in the product.
I mean shit; its not like the fix is rocket science. Just do it right and get this over with.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Rather than start up a new thread here (as there's probably not that much interest), I thought I'd just alert folks to another separate thread on Alien testing on rc.com
This one is centered (no pun intended) on mis-drilled axle holes.
Rather frighteningly, it appears that a large percentage of Aliens have their axle holes drilled in the wrong place, such that they don't have anything close to a constant camming angle.
Here's the thread:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2148506
Cheers,
GO
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Thing is, it seems to me like people are more talking sh#t than acting. And I don't see that CCH's business has been hurt. Go to any shop that stocks them (usually the large places - Yos MShop, Gearheads in Moab, Wilson's, etc.) and they still sell out in a couple of days, sometimes hours, each time they get a shipment in. Any shop will tell you they simply cannot get enough of them or keep them in stock. This leads me to believe that they're still selling as many as they can make. The only place that I know of that actually quit selling them was REI.
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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The only place that I know of that actually quit selling them was REI.
And for what it's worth, Canada's biggest outdoor retailer MEC stopped carrying them during the recall shitstorm a few years back.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Rock and Snow had this last set of testing on their premises. I suspect that if Rich (the owner) doesn't hear what he needs to hear from CCH, they will stop carrying them, too.
And I think EMS may be quietly selling off their remaining stock.
GO
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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I got to witness the aforementioned testing...I had come in to upgrade some of my pieces, hoping to get bigger c4s and smaller aliens. I didnt buy any aliens that day...mostly because the guy doing the testing bought the ones I had wanted.
I will climb on the ones I have but if I whip onto them once, hard, that will probably be it for me. Too bad. I liked them but I will be phasing them out.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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I dunno... The guy at my local EMS was rather up front with me about them not carrying them anymore when I was looking for test samples. He didn't know why they were no longer carrying them, but hadn't seen a shipment of them in months. There was a grand total of 2 Blacks anywhere near Philadelphia (which they had at that store), with the next closest ones being in NY and MA.
@Porkchop- what sizes were you looking for? I think the only ones I cleaned out were Black, Purple and Clear, and possibly the Red/Silver hybrids. I'm just kinda curious since I have the not-yet published report on the failures sitting in front of me and it would be interesting to see what you may have ended up with.
One of the upsides to doing the testing at R&S was that it pretty much cleaned them out, which (hopefully) gives them some leverage on getting CCH to finally get their act together. I suspect R&S is one of CCH's bigger customers (given the popularity of Aliens at the Gunks and R&S being right there), so losing them would probably not be a good thing for CCH.
EDIT- Hmmm... Might have cleaned out Red too. They're all blending together at this point as I bought 15 of them that day and had 7 (9?) more used ones donated for testing.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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I'm sure I'm wrong/naive... But if I were headed out to Philly, I'd not really expect to need cams too much, and wouldn't expect to be able to find them, if I did... is this a wrong assumption?
I mean, I'm used to walking in shops on this side of the pond and seeing hundreds of Aliens go in hours/days... Not to mention all of the other cams/gear they sell.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Well, Philly is 3 hours from the Gunks and 5 hours from Seneca with a fair number of smaller places nearby so its actually not that hard to find trad gear around. Easiest (but smallest selection) would be REI and EMS. A few of the local gyms have decent shops as well, and Campmoor in north Jersey has a pretty good selection. After that comes Rock&Snow or the Gendarme, depending on whether you went north or southwest and they both have excellent selections.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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I was looking to get green grey and yellow. Maybe red as well. I am a bit OCD so I wanted to have them all consecutive order and not wait for a new shipment to fill in the intermediate sizes.
Wait, maybe that is just impatience...anyhow, I just went with mastercams and C4s.
I doubt aliens will lose their hold in the gunks regardless. I would buy some even now if they got their act together but its tough to argue with other units that are built like trucks comparatively...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Well you would have been out of luck with Green. Looks like bought 2 Grey, 3 Yellow and 2 Red, and I remember there being one or two more in those sizes left, but I don't remember which ones.
Personally I think they're great too, but with the hit or miss nature of the build quality you won't see me climbing on them anytime soon.
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climb-n-bike
Big Wall climber
Oakland, Ca
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Jun 11, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
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Have there been any reported problems with pre-2004 aliens?
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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
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