Discussion Topic |
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 17, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Two of [url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280323753036&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123" target="new"]Walt's cams[/url] are up on ebay and I intend to purchase them for the Yosemite Climbing Museum - I'd appreciate you folks not bidding against me in the effort to do that.
Thanks...!
-Joseph
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
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joseph,
why don't you just e mail seller, and tell him/her your intentions, and see if they will give them to you, or give you a low, buy now price.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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Cool stuff. I'd like to have them for my collection, but you have a much better cause. I'll be a good boy and leave them alone.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Zip, I did and if the seller didn't need the cash he wouldn't be selling them at all as he bought them from Walt and they clearly mean something to him. I'm just trying to work with him in that regard to secure them for the YCM as they seem like something that belong in the Valley. Normally I'd be getting them for Stephane's Nut Museum given he's the one that alerted me to them - but this is one of those rare cases where they really probably belong in YCM more than in Stephane's, Marty's or anyone else's private collection.
climbrunride - I appreciate that...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Rob Oravetz made similar cams. Are you sure Walt made those?
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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any idea on how much he wants for them?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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I pity da fool who bids against Joe...
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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i contacted seller and asked him if he had a buy now price, and proof that it was made by Walt.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Zip (and Clint), to be honest, I don't think that was really necessary at all. He says Walt made and sold them to him, I'm willing to believe him. Can you or anyone verify they were made by someone else? Otherwise I'm inclined to take him at his word given the other gear he's selling...
Clint, I'm not familiar with Rob Oravetz - got some details? I could be wrong, but I would think a couple of Walt's cams, regardless of who made them, would be a nice addition to the YCM.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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I believe Rob O lives in Berkeley. Bachar said he saw him at that Oakland slide show, I didn't recognize him (wasn't looking) through the years since I last saw him.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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Hey-
Great effort. Never knew Walt, but heard some great stories and know people that hold him close. We need to keep the cams home. If there is anything I can do to help, including financial support, count me in. jtpbka at aol . com. 310 - 351 - 1472.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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I had forgotten that either Walt or Rob made cams.
We are all nearly "history" now...
Joseph,
I just e-mailed you Rob's contact.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Nice of you JH - this is a thanks for the heads up bump.
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Mar 17, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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I've got a "Rob" cam that I took a mighty fall on in The Trench. It held and I'm still able to post here. It's a lot shorter then those cams on ebay.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Mastadon, could you post up a pic of Rob's cam?
Thanks Tar (and Bill! And johntp)...
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Bump...
Everyone here is staying away from them. I do hope they make it to the museum!
AF
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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10/4, but prolly not today. I'll have to dig it out.....
The cam lobes on my "Rob" cam aren't serrated like the ones listed on ebay.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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Thanks Anastasia!
Clint, courtesy of Tar, I just fired off an email to Rob and asked if he couldn't take a look at them (and also tell us the story of his own cams).
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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This story sounds so bogus. 15 years ago.
He went to Fresno State and I first met Walt when he left Lockheed.
That was more than 15 years ago. He never mentioned making any cams unless he made them at Middendorfs place?
John? Russ? ........what do you guys know.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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I don't remember Walt ever talking about making Cams. Though he could/would have if he was so inclined...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Sounds like we need to get John on the line here...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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Joe
The seller said Walt made them in college. So, they never could have been made at Middendorfs. Walt did not know John M in college.
The sellers story sounds way hokey. But ...
They could have been made by Rob and the guy though Walt made them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Thanks Werner, maybe Rob will take a look and let us know. I'm pretty confident they were Walt's regardless who made them and I would think that's enough to make them worth sending to Ken. You guys who knew him would of course be a better judge of that than me...
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Ok. Ok. Here's the "Rob" cam I have.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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Thanks Mastadon, that will probably greatly help folks who might know these sorts of things.
They certainly have a derivative appearance even with a bunch of differences like sloped vs. angled stem tapers, square vs. rounded stem base, smooth vs. grooved cam lobes, and the obvious length differences. I also notice the trigger bars on both are quite long.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Just back from an internet lapse (moved to another place outside of Hobart)...
Walt must have graduated from college around 1980? Not entirely sure of the year.
I don't think Walt made those cams. They look like some of the early cams available in Yosemite in the early 80's, perhaps HB's (Horsham Bruce from Australia)? Or Orovitz, perhaps. I had one of those .5's at one point myself. They were highly coveted prior to the arrival of 3-cam units.
I'm not 100% certain that Walt didn't make them, but it sure seems like he would have let us (folks like Werner, Russ, and me) know if he had made some cams in college. Plus since those are the same design as the ones that were noted, and remembered, as new and innovative in the early 80's, it seems pretty certain that Walt would have mentioned that he had designed the tapered shaft prior to the HB (or Orovitz) models, if he had done so.
But the clincher for me is the fact that Walt was very particular about his gear. Once, while gripped out of my gourd on our ascent of Zenyatta, I mashed into mincemeat one of his knifeblades into a shallow bottoming thin crack (before birdbeaks, you see). He was very upset about it. I personally can't imagine him parting with cams that he had actually made himself, unless it was a gift to a close friend.
Who's the guy selling them? Hy Sorens or Dave Ingersol, I would believe either of those two. Otherwise, the claim needs further proof, methinks.
Walt helped me in my A5 shop in Flagstaff in 1989, right after he had his extraordinary solo stint in Redrocks. We worked on a solo device, he helped with my portaledge corner manufacturing, he built a jig for the birdbeak, and he helped make a bunch of hammers. But not cams. (We also climbed a bunch of cool desert towers in those few months). There were plenty of great small cams available in the late 80's so it would have been pointless to make your own, and certainly not a rigid shaft model.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Mar 18, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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God rest his soul. Walt was the man of course but even if he did make these cams WTF are they doing on Ebay? The whole thing seems cheap to me. Oooo Ooo look, I have Walts cams. BFD
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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Thanks for taking a look John. Kenny, I traded ebay messages with the seller and he seems completely authentic to me. I'll point him to this thread and maybe he would be willing to shed some more light on things. Here's his response to my first ebay message where I mention these probably belong in the YCM...
=
Dear healyje,
Joseph,
I was just telling my wife the same thing last night. I think the AAC has a museum. I didnt know they had one in the valley even though I have spent many summers there. I actually felt pretty guilty putting them on ebay but the bills are piling up.
 xxxxxxxxxx
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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I purchased a couple of cams from Rob Oravitz when he came through Boulder in about 1984 or so. They looked just like the one in Don's photo. Maybe Walt copied Rob's design as the stem in both look very similar though the length differs(well, duh).
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:23am PT
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Joseph,
The seller could certainly be honest about having bought them from Walt. If that is enough for you to be interested, that's up to you. I don't know what criteria Ken uses for gear to be interesting to the museum.
I am more interested in exactly who made or designed them, if they are well made which the ebay cams appear to be. (I'm not interested in collecting these, so I won't bid against you!)
As John explained, there were several people who made small cams in the late 80s prior to the arrival of TCUs. Various people were selling them in Camp 4. I have seen at least 6 different designs. Some were quite nicely made and others were crude (Rob Oravetz's were pretty nice).
I have seen the short shafted ones with smooth cam surfaces like Don's photo above. We used some on the Shield in 4/1987.
The Rob Oravetz cams I have used most recently are in Brian Cox's collection; I have taken them to Indian Creek a couple of times. They have longer shafts than Don's, but I will have to arrange with Brian to get photos if there is interest. As I recall, these cam surfaces were notched and similar to the ones on ebay. Brian refers to them as definitely being from Rob Oravetz.
Brian also has HB cams from that time. They have titanium (or maybe steel) shafts, which have a smaller cross section than the aluminum shaft cams on ebay.
I have a crudely made small cam which my partner bought from some Mexicans in Camp 4 in 5/1985. It was handy for the Salathe', but has been mostly retired since TCUs arrived.
There is also the Wild Country #.5 with titanium or steel shaft; I am not counting it in the 6 above.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 04:40am PT
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Clint, as a longtime stateside buyer for Stephane I was just trying to intervene to insure these don't disappear into the void without some opportunity for you folks to decide what they're about. It's certainly more for you guys and Ken to decide whether these have intrinsic value for having been associated with Walt or even possibly made by him such that you'd all like to have them returned to the Valley.
I don't really attach much in the way of any sentimentality to gear (certainly my own, anyway) but do recognize if someone doesn't collect some of this stuff we'll lose a bunch of our collective history. I certainly don't have the inclination or temperment to do it, but I'm sure glad guys like Stephane, Marty, Ken, and Gary do.
If Ken isn't interested in them, then if I got them, I'd ship them off to Stephane who is and who let me know about them in the first place (I sent him a link to this thread as well...).
[ Edit: Just sent Marty a link to the thread as well... ]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 04:48am PT
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I'm anticipating they'll likely go for substantially more than that - I'm just asking folks here to either not bid against me or let me know some other plan so I can back off. I'm just a working stiff with a family like anyone else - not made of money...
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 06:57am PT
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Joe,
i contacted seller and asked him if he had a buy now price, and if he had any proof that these were made by Walt.
he said no on the buy now price.
he also stated that he did not have any proof that these were made by Walt. he said that Walt made them at the University of Santa Barbara. He was taking engineering at the time. his roommate was Dave Ingersoll. He worked with Walt on on a few remodel jobs in Sacramento, and said that he was excellent carpenter.
Joe, i wasn't trying to be a jerk, or step on your toes when contacting seller. i have bought a ton of stuff on the Internet, and never been burned, but i ask a lot of questions from sellers, and do my research.
i also thought if i offered him enough of a buy now price, you wouldn't have to be concerned about bidding. if he accepted my offer, i would have given you the cams for the museum.
Zip
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 11:54am PT
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Those aren't the cams I was making at the time. I knew Walt pretty well back then, we hung out a bit and even did a route at the base of halfdome that I don't think was ever published. I don't recall him ever mentioning that he made cams and you'd think he would have, if you knew Walt, given mine were all over the place.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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is Dave Ingersoll still around? IF so does anyone know how to contact him? Seems like if Walt made those while he was his room mate Dave would remember(?).
interesting piece of history no matter how it plays out...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Zip, don't get me wrong, I don't care if someone else gets them and gives Ken and folks here a chance to consider them - I just don't want to run it up so high my family is then out of pocket a large sum unnecessarily. As for the part about contacting the seller, I was merely saying they seemed authentic and honest from the perspective of my ebay experience buying gear for Stephane. In fact, the seller is a good machinist himself making and selling a custom product no differently than early cam makers. I suspect he could easily have made cams back in the day as well as anyone.
I'm the first to admit I operate on gut instinct on these matters and am inclined to take people at their word, as far as the digging into the fine details of what and whom - I'm curious, but tend to leave that to Stephane and Marty given they're so good at it. So, no problem on my part, I think we're all just trying to sort this one out.
FTOR - I'm guessing you're Rob - thanks for stopping by...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Regardless, unless people from here start bidding it up, I doubt the bid will go very high on these. Less than $50, easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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I just remembered something (eureka! I have memory?).
Anyways I remember Walt having this POS looking cams like the ones being sold and they were trashed and we fixed em.
Might be these .....?
Why would anyone want to buy this sh'it is beyond me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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There you have it I suppose, I'll wait for Ken, but again, if no one from the Valley is really interested in these I'll pass them on, probably one to Stephane and one to Marty...
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Mar 18, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Leroy
I thought you were selling them in the parking lot,yes no?
81-82ish
Rich
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Mar 18, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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I got a couple from Rob. They look like Mastadons, but I don't
remember the exact shape of the base of the stem.
I got 1/2" and 3/4".
For a while they seemed to be the only tiny cams around.
Rob was making them with Dave Altman and Eben, whose last name
I can't remember.
Eben's shop is where they were made. I'm pretty sure all three
were making the cams, but maybe only Rob made enough extras to
sell.
Altman referred to them as "Associates", I guess because they
were "not quite Friends."
Rob occasionally posts here.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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yeah, posted earlier on this. all true. at some point if there's any interest maybe it would make more sense to start an early small cam historical thread. -rob
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Joe,
seller has offered to donate cams to museum for cost of shipping.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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man, I'm never selling my old gear if I need some scratch. it'll get pwned by the tacos.
;)
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dickcilley
Social climber
A cova Dos Nenos
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:35am PT
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Walt didnt make them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 10:42am PT
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Zip, yes I've been in email contact with him as well, thanks. He tried to register to post on the thread but didn't get a verification email. I've got an email into Randy to see if we can't get him an account.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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I can get word to Dave Ingersoll and see what he remembers.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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Dick,
How do you know this?
I talked with him on phone last night for a fair amount of time, and I am inclined to believe that he did in fact purchase these from Walt.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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Randy told me that he originally purchased 3 from dave. He later asked dave for 2 more, and dave directed him to walt, who sold him the other 2.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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From the seller:
I created an account on supertopo but never got my email confirmation as I wanted to respond (jh: RJ has fixed this for him).
I actually bought 3 of the same cams from Dave Ingersol but sold them in the valley for gas money to get home. The 2 on ebay I bought from Walt. I was doing some work for Dave and he told me Walt made them in college. Walt was standing there when Dave stated this and didnt say anything. So I had no reason to doubt this. Last time I talked to Dave he had just had a terrible accident soloing. He was trying to cross a glacier in tennis shoes and slipped and took a long fall. I guess he was broken up pretty bad. But on the bright side he married Stephanie and is still in Colorado.I have been trying to find him. He has a company called Park West Real estate. Same name as it was when he was in Sacto. Please let me know if anyone finds him, as I would like to talk to him. If you send me an email I can send a picture of what happens to these cams from a fall when placed horizontally.Not pretty.
[Note: I'm not posting up his name or contact info, but rather going to let him do that...]
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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my post may have been misunderstood, i meant true, to the previous post, about my building 'associates' with dave and eben. my opinion is that walt didn't make these cams. no way.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2009 - 12:13pm PT
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Rob, again, my interactions with the seller, and his own career as an artisan machinist leaves me zero reason to doubt his post above. If Walt were standing there when it was said and didn't say anything, how would you interpret things? I don't have any idea what the reality behind that particular exchange might have been, but I get no sense whatsoever the the seller is being anything but forthright and honest about his experience in the matter.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Mar 19, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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Ditto
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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i was making these small cams around '83 - '85. there were no small cams of this design prior to that, so when was walt in school? these cams are clearly knock-offs. i do recall seeing cams like these back then that were based on our designs that were being mass produced by someone in LA.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Rob, I reckon you're the man to start the Small Cam Historical Thread. Very interesting stuff.
For reference, I recall 1980 being the first year you could buy Jardine's Freinds in the US. I bought my first set (full sizes only #1-3) mail order from the UK. It was when I was a student at Dartmouth, so it would have been 1979 or early 1980.
Now that you mention it, I do remember yours --Rob Orovitz--being the first well made small cams available. 1983 sounds like the year. Before that there weren't really any decent small cams available for purchase (in Camp 4), though there were a few homemade ones out there. Your's were very expensive, if I remember right! I couldn't afford it, though I wanted one badly!
I actually made a small cam myself in college, must have been around 1981 at Stanford. I still have the blueprints, but the unit itself didn't work that well, as I messed up the placement of the trigger wires on the cam. I gave it away at some point.
Looking through my old notes, I came across this letter and sketch of a logarithmic spiral from Walt. Here it is, front and back:
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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^^^^^
hahahaha! "take a bath", logarithmic spirals and an onsite free solo attempt all in the same letter. Fuk! He was the man!
Side note: Hey Rob! good seeing you in the Gorge a while back. If you ever come down to Josh, you gots to look me up. I can always use a tight rope from above!
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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when i have some time i'll see if i can put something together, not so sure i want to loose my lurker status here though. have to dig through some stuff to see if i can find any of the sketches or patterns we used. thanks for posting the note, lost on an onsite solo of fantasia??--good times!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 20, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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Nice archival stuff in there Deuce!
So as to somewhat retain Rob's lurker status, we'll use this as the unofficial small cam thread for now...
(apologies for drawing you into this Rob, but we love fidgeting over the olden days and your input is much appreciated)
I have an e-mail into Dave Ingersoll, it may not be accurate; over the weekend I'll get his number and try phoning him.
Super nice guy and really misses Walt & loves the stories so I'm pretty sure he'll be happy to accommodate.
Tony Yaniro was on to this very early and I don't remember exactly the year/date, but with a HACKSAW,
He hand cut some steel units and showed them to us with pride way back when!
'Dude was persistent...
HB cams, with slender steel stems:
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Mar 20, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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4Deuce: Nice blueprints.
I have to correct something though. Friends were available in the U.S. before 1980 - I know I was using them in 1979 and never ordered anything from overseas... We could buy them at Rock and Snow in the Gunks, and also, I believe, in places like EMS. I still have, and use some of those friends.
In fact, in the summer of 1979 my party had 2 full sets up to 4" to use in aid climbing on Mt. Thor, Baffin Is. (The big ones had not yet reached the market, but we got them special directly from the company.) This was one of the earliest such uses in wide, long cracks.
I also know that custom made small sized friends, and maybe TCUs hit the Gunks by no later than summer of 1983 - I bought some from Steve and Corey Rich, who were making them, and possibly visiting western climbers who were also making and selling them.
Steve Amter
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Mar 20, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Friends were available around the beginning of 1978, more or less. I recall they were first available in Britain.
They were slow to catch on; it took some time for climbers to understand what Friends could do.
Firstly, they were available in Britain before the US, and they were of less use in the UK as the cracks are seldom so straight-sided as in the US, so existing nuts worked quite well. They seemed to be very much a luxury item, rather than essential.
Secondly, they were expensive,
And thirdly, there had already been a few camming designs produced, and none had worked, so this led to more reluctance to fork out real money for what might have been just the latest gimmick.
Fourthly, there was no modern advertising campaign; it was a few tiny ads in the mags, and word of mouth.
Here's some more info about the early history:
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/AboutUs/AboutUs1/History1/
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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Ray Jardine was selling Friends in the Valley in the spring of 1978. You could by a #1, 2 or 3 for the pricey sum of $17. The general feeling was that nobody would use them except for very special circumstances because they were so expensive.
Bruce
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 21, 2009 - 02:41am PT
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Hello all. Im the one with the cams on ebay. I didnt think they would cause so much drama. As stated, I bought several from Dave then bought 2 more later. Dave told me Walt made them in college and Walt was standing right there. He didnt deny it. I didnt ask him if he did. I had no reason to question it. Ask Dave Ingersol. If anyone has Daves contact info tell him Randy says hi or please P.M. me with it. I would love to say hi. I will give the cams to any supertopo member that wins them for free as long as they donate them to the Yosemite museum. So PLEASE bid away.In hindsite,
I would have just sent them there if I had known they were going to
be considered collectible.That was the reason I put Walts name on the listing. I didnt want them hanging on a rack and being used.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 21, 2009 - 02:53am PT
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Randy,
Better to end the auction than to give them to the highest bidder. Otherwise you will have to pay ebay's 2-3% on the final bid amount! (Which could be huge if the buyers do not pay and bid very high).
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 21, 2009 - 03:19am PT
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Can I end the auction without getting my ass in a sling? I would have done that days ago.Im not ebay savvy.Please enlighten me.
I will do just that if possible.Thanks! Im gonna go read ebays policies now.
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 21, 2009 - 03:25am PT
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Never mind!! DONE! Now who has a mailing address for the museum?
Thanks!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 21, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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Harpfreak,
I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I think the general feeling was one of just trying to determine who made the cams for history sake. I don't think anyone was trying to say that you were trying to make a fast buck by lying about the origin of the cams.
This is really interesting stuff and I think we all just wanted to get the correct history.
Bruce
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 21, 2009 - 04:00am PT
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Im just glad they will get a good home. I looked up the museum and they have a P.O. box. Think i will just email them and let them know to watch the box.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Randy, glad to see you made it to the thread!
Like I was describing relative to Ken, Stephane, Marty, and Gary's collections - Ken's is as close as there is to a 'Yosemite Museum' and my vote would be to just ship them to him. I'll send you his email and you can get ahold of him directly.
Thanks.
-Joseph
P.S. If he ends up not really interested then I'd take them and send one to Marty and one to Stephane which would also insure they are preserved in collections that will eventually find permanent homes.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 21, 2009 - 04:55am PT
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> P.S. If he ends up not really interested then I'd take them and send one to Marty and one to Stephane which would also insure they are preserved in collections that will eventually find permanent homes.
In that event, a payment to Randy would be in order, as Randy's condition was that they be donated to the Yosemite museum....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2009 - 06:10am PT
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Clint,
As someone who mostly ebay proxies for Stephane (I pay, he collects [so my basement stays uncluttered and I can visit someday]) - and who also has fed gear to both Ken and Marty - I feel any of the three collections (Ken, Stephane, Marty) are essentially equivalent relative to the long term odds of them surviving intact and finding a permanent home. Ken's has the closest affinity to Yosemite and he has been getting his collection out there. Stephane and Marty extensively research all aspects of every piece of gear (and gear maker in Stephane's case) - all are looking for permanent homes, though Ken is clearly ahead on that curve.
So, while I'm not much better off than anyone else here, I'd be happy to work out something with Randy if that's what he'd like, but in my view all three of their collections qualify as 'museums' for the purposes of preserving the more metallic aspects our collective heritage. And again, maybe I'm completely off on all this and none of you Valley folk who were around then and knew Walt and David really care about these cams; as I said, I was simply trying to catch something of potential interest to you folks as it was winging by on ebay (good catch on Stephane's part)...
P.S. But we got Randy on ST out of the deal and that's not bad either way. Welcome to ST Randy! Would love to hear how you ended up in the custom harmonica business.
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fosburg
climber
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Mar 21, 2009 - 10:41am PT
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Walt did not make those cams. A friend of his and Dave Ingersoll's named Richard C. Hunt made cams and those are probably some of them.
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Jack Burns
climber
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Mar 21, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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ebay sucks big floppy donkey dicks
just sayin
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 21, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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I bought this unit from Mr Byrne shortly before the launch of Wired Bliss he still lived in Oregon then, I believe.
Bill Zauman was selling something similar.
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 21, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Ken emailed to say he has a pretty good collection of Walts gear and will add it to that. Even better than I could have hoped for.
Healy, to answer your question, I did drywall (UGH!) for 30 years and Im not a big guy so it just destroyed me. Had a few neck surgeries and started looking for am alternative. I have played harp for 16 years and was disgusted with the quality so tried making my own. I tried every kind of woodworking machinery and had never even seen a milling machine.Then someone told me I need a cnc. I looked at them and was shocked by the prices. I finally found a site for the DIY machinist. I bought a harbor freight mill and slowly bought the parts to retrofit it. I almost sold it many times thinking it would never work but finally got it finished.
Its a pretty competitive business. But I finally have a pretty decent clientele base. If I ever find that other cam like the ones in question Ill post a pic of it here. Anyone know Dave Ingersol's contact info?
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fosburg
climber
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Mar 21, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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Check your email Harp-Daddy.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 21, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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#1 - #3 Friends were available retail in Vancouver in spring 1979. One climber bought one in the Valley in autumn 1978, and we were all mystified by it. I think the #4 Friends became available later in 1979, or maybe 1980.
I remember all sorts of knock-offs and variations of Friends in the early 1980s. Every time you went to the Valley, someone would be hawking the things around the parking lot. The #1/2 Friend appeared in 1985 or 1986, but at about that time Metolius started producing smaller cams.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 21, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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I just left a phone message with Dave Ingersoll to get some definitive input on all this...
Harp, looks like Kevin Fosberg has forwarded Ingersoll's contact; if not I will be happy to do so.
Cheers,
Roy
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Harpfreak
Trad climber
California
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Mar 22, 2009 - 04:20am PT
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I dont know why Im not getting emails originating from this forum.
Its not in my spam. Not in my email at all. Can you send it to me at randyharps@comcast.net
Thanks
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 22, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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I just got off the phone with Dave Ingersoll.
Mystery solved.
As Rob, Kevin, Dick and others have attested or suspected, Walt did not make the cams.
Dave doesn't really remember telling Randy that Walt made the cams, but given the origin of the cams, this doesn't necessarily imply that Randy is misrepresenting anything to us.
Here's the trick:
The guy who originally manufactured the cams, for his own reasons, didn't want it disclosed that he had made them.
Now, to conjecture, this perhaps is why Dave and Walt were a bit tight lipped or evasive about the origin of the cams. This potentially explains why Walt didn't respond when mention was made of him as the producer of the items. Regarding what is remembered by Randy at the time of purchase, this is a vague element of history and whatever was said back then, it follows that it was meant to respect the wishes of the producer and it likewise facilitated a meager distribution. I'm sure Randy was stoked to get them, as any of us would have been, never mind what we were told about their origin.
So, per Dave Ingersoll, Walt definitively didn't make them: beyond that it doesn't much matter who did. This settles the provenance of the items, for accurate historical archiving purposes.
I sure remember how much we all wanted small cams back then, and the Oravetz/Altman units, along with any others being made (whether by secret operators), were a prized acquisition!
Thanks to Healyje & Randy for your efforts at archiving bits of history for us all.
Happy treasure hunting everybody...
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dickcilley
Social climber
A cova Dos Nenos
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Mar 23, 2009 - 10:20am PT
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I knew Dave I. would have the facts.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 23, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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as long as we're setting historic records straight, just want to mention that the true designer behind our small 3/4 size was eben stromquist. while altman sparked the building efforts, his desires were to produce half size units between the then only available 1, 2, 3, and 4. it was clear that those sizes were needed to fit the full range of yos cracks. by that and reasons of virtual poverty dave hand built his entire rack of friends. eben was a builder of custom homes who had a shop down on the bay. he had recently added a milling machine and lathe to his tool collection and was building custom film editing devices among other things. we all climbed together. eben was an extremely gifted designer who came up with the unique small stem used in our 3/4. i jumped in and pushed the efforts into going to one size smaller, a true half, and we pushed on to going larger as well, building the first quality larger sizes, 5, 6, and 7. we built ours using the same materials (or better) than commercial friends and did some rudimentary testing. about this time eben scored a job at lucas and was involved in designing and building a lot of the inner workings for the special effects models used in the early starwars movies, in short, a real job. i supported a couple of seasons of being a climbing bum by spending countless hours in the shop. dick made a couple of bucks selling these too. hey dick how's it going?
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 23, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Jardine stole it and modified it a bit from Greg Lowe if you want to really get it right there BJ. Steve Byrne invented the 3 cam unit, and was selling them under the table as he used the Jardine patented cam design that Lowe originated as well. Lowe may have seen a Russian version of something similar I believe, but maybe Jeff Lowe can address that better than anyone else as he posts here.
Good story on these cams.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 23, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Jeff has related that story in fine detail elsewhere here on the forum.
I do not recall which thread holds that post.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 23, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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never claimed any originality. we were just filling in the blanks. pretty much just for ourselves, with quality stuff we would trust our lives to, at a time when there was nothing else out there. we discussed experimenting with wire stems too, but never pursued it.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 23, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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This is like the History Detectives: Climbing Edition. I love it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2009 - 05:01am PT
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From Stephane Pennequin of the Nut Museum. He sometimes has Internet/email trouble their in Corsica and asks me to relay post or email for him. Like I said, he's pretty serious about researching entire stories - the lineage, history, events, climbs, people and their motivations are what I think makes it all interesting for him. Whatever it is, he's a pretty thorough chronicler of our story as seen through the lens of our equipment - sort of the Ken Burns of climbing even if only from that one unique perspective.
FTOR, in this case - and beyond just the possibility of snagging one of the cams you guys were making - it sounds like he'd like to know a lot more about this under-the-radar half-size operation you guys had going on...
===
Dear Joseph,
I read your forum thread “Two Walt Shipley-made cams on ebay” on supertopo with a great interest. In fact, when I sent you the link to these two original cams made by Walt Shipley, I must confess that I was more interested in their shape than that they could have been made by a Yosemite famous aficionado.
None of the early rigid friends 1/2” and 3/4” in my collection has an aluminium alloy stem with the upper part machined with such a reduced thickness (beautiful and really interesting!):
Malcolm Matheson (Horsham Bruce), Australia, HB Cams (1st generation, 1981) #1/2 & #3/4, with a Stainless Steel rigid stem. These HB Cams are the very early models. Malcolm Matheson changed the brass washers for Stainless Steel ones and put a knurled surface on the end of the titanium shaft on later models.
Steve Byrne (Wired Bliss) 1/2 inch "Friend", with a Stainless Steel rigid stem, one of the first batch made at Central Oregon Community College in 1982.
Wild Country Baby Friend or Half Size Friend (1st generation, 1986), with a thick titanium stem.
Wild Country Baby Friend or Half Size Friend (2nd generation, 1986), with a thin titanium stem.
Please Joseph, did you contact Rob Orovitz (“FTOR”), and have you got his email? I would be pleased if I could correspond with him and, maybe, get one of his magnificent small cams.
Thank you in advance…
Stéphane
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2009 - 05:32am PT
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> Lowe may have seen a Russian version of something similar I believe, but maybe Jeff Lowe can address that better than anyone else as he posts here.
Jeff Lowe has addressed this on other threads here. The Russian "Abalakov" cam shown in the AAJ article by Alex Bertulis (Soviet climbing exchange to US) came out in 1975, after Jeff showed the Russians his prototype Tricams during a climbing exchange visit to Russia in 1974. The Russian cams did not even have a proper spiral - they were cut from a circular flywheel.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=268925&tn=20
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=269620&tn=40
Alex Bertulis' article in the 1976 AAJ:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HkalBpP35cQC&pg=PA340&lpg=PA340&dq=%22Alex+Bertulis%22+Abalakov&source=bl&ots=56e8Q-Yo5t&sig=z9vqc0bqrzruHzKWIyTrf-sQxUM&hl=en&ei=rP3JSZvkFJK2sAOF6ojoBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA343,M1
Alex Bertulis' article in Off Belay, 1976
and followup in 1978 where Bob Dill explained a real spiral
http://www.deuce4.net/web/OffBelay.pdf
I believe it was in these articles where people started to believe Abalakov had invented this, instead of actually copying it from Jeff Lowe.
The wikipedia article is way off, and it is really just quoting John Middendorf's article without any citation - probably time to fix it (I could fix it, fairly easily).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_loaded_camming_device
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/mechadv/index.html
(sorry about the thread drift - the above concerns a single passive cam and the constant-angle-cam design).
I'm glad to see Stephane' likes Rob's small cams (4 cams on solid shaft), and I'm sure he will be able to get some (as well as other similar early small camming devices, such as the ones in this recent ebay auction).
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dickcilley
Social climber
A cova Dos Nenos
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Mar 25, 2009 - 10:01am PT
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Doing great Ftor,Six new crack boulders yesterday and all harder than Bachar crack.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 25, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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hey dick, good to hear you're cranking harder than ever. i barely climb at all, drifted off in to mtn biking, a little skate skiing, and a real job. Stephane Pennequin can email me here through the taco. be happy to provide him with any info, cams, etc. our little units were the sh-t back then, but the window was brief. hats off to whoever cam up with the wired tri cam designs, clearly the way to go with these smaller sizes. but ray was the guy who put it all together, regardless. my understanding of what he patented was the trigger system used in conjunction with the opposing cams, not the camming priciple per se. the very real fear of patent issues kept us out of mainstream markets, but as i said, it was never a desire make a lot of money that got us into this, we wanted these smaller cams for our racks.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mar 25, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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The Russians I've been in communication with (one of whom quoted in another Supertopo post) still defend Abalokov as having come up with the cam as protection for climbing some years prior to 1974, but I have not seen any definitive proof (though in the past I took them for their word).
The Russians I've been in communication with hang out around this site:
http://www.russianclimb.com/odintsov.html
Jeff and Greg Lowe say otherwise, so I take them for their word at this point. The Lowe version has definite proof that they conceived it by 1974--there's a patent! There's nothing from Russia to prove earlier provenance, though I'd be interested to hear if they are still claiming the origin of the idea.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France.
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Mar 26, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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FTOR, I have just sent you an email...
Again, I thank you for all your interest in "my" Nuts' Story!
Stephane / Nuts Museum
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Hooray…! After a great deal of research, this morning the Nuts Museum has just been enhanced with an Associate, as Dave Altman, Rob Oravetz and Eben Stromquist used to called their little wonders. Not only it is in a perfect condition, but there is important information stamped on the back of the rigid stem: the Associates were also called Micros! Please FTOR, could you confirm me that you and your friends produced this magnificently crafted little cam? I suspect that two “generations” were created. The one with the hexagonal swages (as your oversized cams) would be the first, and the other with rounded swages would be second generation.
FTOR, the cam that truly would delight me now would be a 3/4 and I believe that, without your help, I have a very tiny chance to visualise one this century…
Edit: This Micro is not an original Associate! It is one of the later copies of the Altman/Oravetz/Stromquist design.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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I think I have a 1/2 and a 3/4 made by Rob, which have neither "Micro"
or "Made in USA" stamped or engraved on them. Bought direct, genuine.
The 1/2 held a pretty good fall one time. I was fortunate that neither one
ever got stuck.
Will search.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Thank you scuffy b!
None of the Associates posted here and there on supertopo has "micro" or "made in USA" stamped on the stem.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I'm with scuffy, I had one of those cams (3/4 Friend size), with no stamps. It was the best cam I've ever had, smooth, smooth action.
I loaned it to a buddy, along with a bunch of other gear. They were climbing at Sugar Loaf, (Sugar Bun, to be exact), and when he left, he thought his partner had the rack.
Never to be seen, by me, again ...
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Mar 12, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 12, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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I am sitting here looking at an old ice screw that I shook out of a haulbag full of old junk.
Back during the cold war, it wasn't easy for the eastern european climbers to go climbing in Chamonix. There was some kind of black market going on where workers at a factory were churning out gear on the sly. Take it to Cham, sell it, and it paid for their trip.
It is made out of pure titanium, is about 10" long, and was built beautifully on a lathe. It is a work of art and weighs about 4 ounces max. Titanium is very light. It was actually a strategic metal for airplane manufacture. Russia is blessed with a lot of titanium, and it is scarce in the U.S.
Anyway, it is a damn cool piece of history. I'd give it to the Yo climbing museum if they had any use for it. It is early eighties vintage. I'll try to post a pic.
Back to Walt. He wrote tons of letters and was evidently short on paper, because they all seemed to be on the backs of topos from the old Meyers green binder. The sentences would wind around and around until every space had been used. I only have a few, but others have huge numbers of his letters.
I have no idea why Walt was so special. If you climbed with him you wouldn't get blown away, yet he put up some incredible routes later on.
Why WAS Walt so special?
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Mar 12, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
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I have this cam that says "micro 3/4" on one side, and "made in usa" on the other. Is this the 3/4 cam you were wondering about nutstory?
I picked this up in Joshua Tree in April 1986. I always wondered who made these. It's a sweet little cam
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 12, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Between climbing and death there lies collecting memorabilia.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 12, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
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Cool thread...Never seen it till now. I climbed with Eben a lot through-out the 90s (I remember climbing with Ron O and Eben back then one day at Donner. Eben showed me one of the cams he made back then. He is a truly gifted machinest but he never claimed to have designed the friend.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 13, 2013 - 04:35am PT
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telemon01: your micro ¾ perfectly matches the micro ½ that I have in the Nuts Museum (photograph in a previous post above). It is carefully crafted and… would be a wonderful addition to the collection… I do not have any information about who really made these micros. What I’m sure is that they were not manufactured by Dave Altman, Rob Oravetz and Eben Stromquist. Both small and large cams made by Altman / Oravetz / Stromquist were copied and produced “in mass” by people with access to better machining capabilities. Your little wonder is one of the later copies.
scuffy b: no doubt at all… your small cam is an original Associate! May I tell you that this treasure would find a good home here in Corsica, close to its big brother #6…
Anyway, I thank scuffy b and telemon01 for posting the photographs of these magnificent little cams.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 13, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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bookcase versions of our first gen cams. enjoy.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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Yeah they're beauties !!!!
Plus if you didn't have those small sizes back then you couldn't lead "cosmic debris" on sight ....... :-)
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 13, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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So FTOR... you found them again... Absolutely splendid!
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 13, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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unfortunately, i have no idea where these are now. found old slides taken when we were making them. i suspect they're in eben's bookcase but it's been many years since we've last connected.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 16, 2014 - 06:04am PT
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I received this carefully made ¾ “Friend”, in very nice condition, from Dana Bartlett this morning. This camming unit was made by Steve Jones. Steve was originally from Western Massachusetts – a very talented climber and skilled with tools, as well. He was an avid Yosemite climber in the late '70s and early '80s, and he made several hundred of these units and sold many of them in Yosemite at that time. Interesting to note that many of the home-made “Friends” did not have grooves in the cam lobes. Steve told that Wild Country made the cams grooved simply to make them appear as if they would grip. He put plastic coating on the trigger wires. I imagine there are some Supertopo members that bought one or two, or at least heard of them.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Jun 16, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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as they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. (thanks big ray). i would put these in that category as many knocked off our little associates. but hundreds available for sale during that time period seems a bit of a stretch. i was pretty active in the valley scene then and barely selling my somewhat limited production runs off as is. i don't recall seeing any of these going around, at least in the valley, and i would have...
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 17, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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FTOR....I climbed with Eben last summer after a few years of him taking time off. I told him I had my gear stolen so he told me he'd get his gear out. When I showed up, he had all the cams he'd made out and ready to go! I think yours are still in his bookcase in Fairfax and I can certainly find out as we keep in touch. You, he and I climbed Neanderthal dudes in the mid 90's in Tahoe. I have pics somewhere......
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 19, 2014 - 06:38am PT
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Is there anybody on Supertopo who remembers the person that made the Micros? To date, it is still a great mystery for me.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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hey wstmrnclmr, ran into eben for the first time in many years at biw recently, seems to be doing well, will have to stop by next time i hit tamarancho... the maker of the stamped micro above was thrown out up thread, but not anyone i knew at the time.
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enigma
Trad climber
Sedalia, Colorado
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Just to clear things up a bit on these cams, I made and sold about 400 of them over a 2 year period in the early 80s. Even sold a few John Bachar one night in Lower Pines campground. Saw a picture of Ron Kauk once with one on his rack. Dave Altman let me borrow one of his home made cams to trace the shape of the cam. Mine were made using a router and a steel master cam to trace the profile. I just about went deaf cutting the cams as I didn't have any hearing protection. My girlfriend Carol Black helped me assemble them in a friend's garage. I still have a few of them in with my old climbing gear.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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PM sent
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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"Between climbing and death there lies collecting memorabilia."
Nailed it.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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As long as we are going down memory lane...
I knocked the cobwebs off these.
The rear one is an original titanium shaft 1/2 friend, maybe winter of 1985. WC came out with the flexible/tech friends the following Spring which I still use.
The one in the middle appears to be the Steve Jones variant, which makes sense, since I bought it out of the trunk of a car in the Gunks. I'm guessing that was 1983-'84 no markings on it whatever. The shaft is a grade 8 bolt. It has plastic covered trigger cables. I might have bought it from Dana. He at least told me about them.
The one in the front was the first cam smaller than a #1 friend I ever saw. 1/2 size. Bought it at Seneca maybe a year or two earlier on the Gendarme porch. Had to have it.
It scared the willies out of me, though. The shaft is the same major dimensions as the titanium friend, though of aluminum? The cams appear to be 1/2 circles of metal - certainly not any log spiral that I can see. Amazingly, the cam survived a couple falls taken on it ( others took 'em. I was too scared to fall on it) and made it up triple Direct, my first El Cap wall.
And Friends were available in 1978 in the USA. My partner bought a set for me from Jardine in the valley that Spring. He came back and presented them to me with a bill for $51 for the three. (Without asking me)
I think you could buy a rack of nuts for that back then.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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i am so glad that you cleared things up about copying my cams directly and selling hundreds of them. not exactly what we were up to. i don't think i made more than a 100 of these total bitd.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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i don't think i made more than a 100 of these total bitd. FTOR: it lets me very very little chance to find any sample without your help…
Lorenzo: the original Wild Country ½ Friend with a titanium shaft hit the market in 1986. There were two generations. The first generation has a thicker titanium stem than the second generation that tented to bend…
The Wild Country Technical Friends (or Flexible Friends) came onto the market, in 1987, in the size #0, #½, #1, and #1½. They had riveted camshaft ends that were changed for axle with low profile end-screws in 1988.
I suspect that I do have a sample of the cam in the front of your photograph. (I will post a photo in the next days). It was given to me by Marty Karabin as a custom made “Friend-like” cam made in the early 80’s by a long time valley climber and journeyman machinist.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nut story.
Thanks. My 1/2 Friend is def. the second generation on the bottom of your photo. I thought it was earlier than 1986, though.
I have both versions of the flex friends. I still use the ones with the button head nuts.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Lorenzo: The version with the riveted camshaft ends is “collector” as there was a recall for all the samples (rigid and flexible) that were marketed with such a configuration.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Wait...recall?
you mean I can turn them in for new ones? ;)
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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interesting to see them going to a ti stem. presume they did that for strength. other early small friend builders also used ti. we went with a thicker stock, and stronger 7075 T6 al alloy. but it alway seemed axel shaft strength in the 1/2 was more of a concern, you have go with a smaller axel diameter to accommodate the smaller lobe size. in crude tests, hucking weights directly onto placements, bending of the axel was the point of failure. our axels were 4340 alloy steel, which i had commercially heat treated. one concern in seeing all the knock offs was whether they were using the same quality of materials.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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The reason I retired all three of the small cams I pictured was elongation of the hole in the shafts that the axle went trough and the resulting slop. The ti shaft included. ( it is also slightly bent in the transverse direction near the axle)
I think it is evident in this pic
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mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
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A Walt Shipley biner???
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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those are his initials and I believe, his mark. klaus could confirm
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Oct 10, 2014 - 12:47am PT
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The one in the front was the first cam smaller than a #1 friend I ever saw. 1/2 size. Bought it at Seneca maybe a year or two earlier on the Gendarme porch. Lorenzo: here is the cam that truly looks like the one in the front of your photo.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Oct 10, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
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Nutstory
Here is the cam profile on mine:
Sure looks similar, though yours looks a lot more pristine
Another thing to look at would be the shaft size. Here is mine compared to the 2nd generation 1/2 friend.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Oct 11, 2014 - 09:19am PT
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Left to right: Micro 1/2, Steve Jones "Friend" 3/4 (1982/1983), unknown "Friend" 3/4, Wild Country Friend 1/2 (1st generation, 1986), Wild Country Friend 1/2 (2nd generation, 1986).
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jul 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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FTOR, as you can see above, unfortunately, there is still not any sample of your splendid micro-cams in the Nuts Museum...
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 30, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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Would love to buy that Shipley carabiner...for sale?
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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I just wanted to correct part of a post from seven years ago. I wrote:
"I also know that custom made small sized friends, and maybe TCUs hit the Gunks by no later than summer of 1983 - I bought some from Steve and Corey Rich, who were making them, and possibly visiting western climbers who were also making and selling them."
I meant Steve and Corey Jones; (credit where it due).
I guess I am also doing my part to keep this cool this thread going.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 24, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
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This seems to be the main thread for solid shaft cams smaller than a #1 Friend,
and I haven't seen photos of this particular model, so here you go.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Aug 10, 2017 - 02:13am PT
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Clint, I have just discovered your post!
Thank you for these great photos!
One more dreaming device for the Nuts Museum... ;-)
At the first page of this thread you wrote:
there were several people who made small cams in the late 80s prior to the arrival of TCUs. Various people were selling them in Camp 4. I have seen at least 6 different designs. Some were quite nicely made and others were crude (Rob Oravetz's were pretty nice). Do you remember who was (is) the manufacturer of the Micro?
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Aug 10, 2017 - 08:21am PT
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there were several people who made small cams in the late 80s prior to the arrival of TCUs. Various people were selling them in Camp 4. I have seen at least 6 different designs. Some were quite nicely made and others were crude (Rob Oravetz's were pretty nice).
There was also Malcom Matheson in Australia who made them in the 80s. They were extremely well made. Not sure of the sizing - one was about what was later to be 1/2 Friend sized and the other a little smaller. Here they are (Stephane has already seen this photo, perhaps he can fill me in on the sizing):
They date from 1985, the Euro coin, a little later...
The 'HB' stamp might be confusing. It stands for Horsham Bruce, not Hugh Banner!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Aug 10, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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jaan, your second generation of HB's is desperately missing to the Nuts Museum...;-)
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Aug 10, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
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Clint - Cool Kuate cams. I have not seen the smaller sizes before. Looks like they were well used!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Aug 18, 2017 - 02:07am PT
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After eight years of research, and forlorn hopes, I have finally been able to add a precious Associate to the Nuts Museum!
Allow me to tell you this wonderful tale: - a couple of weeks ago, my long-time supporter healyje forwarded me a link to a Mountain Project thread with this laconic question “Prototype?”. Skye Swoboda-Colberg had found a host of fascinating old climbing devices at a goodwill sale in the Seattle area, among them a rather crude CCH Offset Trigger-Cam made in 1986 by the greatly missed Dave Waggoner. I was also able to identify the other treasures found by Skye but a small four cam unit with a rigid stem puzzled me somewhat. It was only when I carefully compared it with the two other samples in my collection (Micro ½ and Steve Jones “Friend” ¾) that I was undoubtedly able to identify it as a little cam made by Eben Stromquist, Dave Altman and Rob Oravetz circa 1983, a genuine Associate!
I posted this short message on the Mountain Project thread, as I would have thrown a bottle in the sea, with such little hope:
“Skye Swoboda-Colberg, if you ever part with the small four cam unit (with a blue tape) on the right of the fourth photograph, it would be a great addition to the Nuts Museum, here in Corsica ;-)”
The very next day, I received this private message:
"Hello Stéphane PENNEQUIN (I presume), I admire your collection and am willing to send you the piece you are interested in, hopefully one day I can see the collection in person. Let me know where you want the item shipped and I'll see what I can do.
Skye"
I am most grateful to Skye for his sincere interest in my collection and for all his generosity. I have been searching for this little wonder for the past eight years now…
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Aug 18, 2017 - 07:28am PT
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Stephane - Nice cams!
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| Messages 1 - 138 of total 138 in this topic |
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