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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 9, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Would it help or hinder our economy to control illegal immigration? According to Obama there're a bunch of peopel in Indiana eating on food-stamps because there are NO JOBS and we're losing more. What if Americans took the jobs that ilegal immigrants are doing?
Also, if these criminal aliens had to go home, how much would we save in social costs like healthcare, schooling, less crowded prisons (by 28%!!!)?
Obama said he'd like to keep/create 4 million jobs to get us back on track. At least 2 million would be served by my solution.
Oh, and H1B Visa holders....don't get me started there, start looking for American workers a bit harder before you say, "we gotta hire Indian software eng's because we can't find any here".
In California alone, illegal immigration has proven to be a drain, year after year...and yet we're going to cut police staffing, education, and let criminals out of prison early to cut costs.
CUT OFF THE ILLEGAL ALIENS, IDIOTS!!!!
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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that sounds like vitriolic hate speech to me...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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This would help a bit. But until people decide to put moral integrity above greed our country will decline or disappear.
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Gene
climber
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^unable to articulate a complete thought^
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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porkchop, these are critical issues for our country. I think if we could all sit down and dialogue together we could actually make progress in problem solving.
As long as we continue to take pot shots at one another it will deepen the divide and no solution will be created.
We are all intelligent humans that need to make this place and planet work. We all so need to work together to formulate solutions for these VERY tough times. Lynnie
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Bluering - a friend of mine who runs almond orchards and mixed veggie operations in Tulare had a problem with labor during the last building boom.
His problem?
All of his "illegal" workers left the fields for more lucrative jobs in the construction business.
Since plants won't pick and pack themselves - he looked to "regular Americans" for his labor. He ran close to 100 want ads throughout the Central Valley touting his need for 150 workers and only got 57 replies!!!!!
Less than 30 actually showed up to give it a try. Of that number only 3 stuck it out for the full season!!!
The rest said it was too hot/hard/dusty/dirty and was "Mexican work" and therefore beneath them.
Not enough for you - I've got friends in the restaurant biz that will also fill your ears with stories about how no "real American" wants to wash dishes for a living either.
Since I like eating and appreciate clean dishes - I appreciate ANYONE willing to work the underbelly of this country since few of us spoiled-brat entitlement babies care to soil our precious hands with manual labor.
If we were to somehow remove all illegal immigrants overnight from this country - this place would collapse into chaos within a week.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Lynne- I was referring to my post initially as being sarcastic. While I do agree that we need solutions that will bring us all together, my point, while not necessarily delivered in the most constructive manner, is that a simple statement of fact as the OP to many people on ST would and does constitute "right wing fanaticism" of some sort.
I suppose that is all a matter of perspective, but the bottom line is that the range of opinions is too wide to ever draw a conclusion that everyone will support.
I am curious as to what will happen even though I most likely will not agree with most of it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Next year white folks will be picking beans and will be gratefull for the oportunity.
The "stimulus" package will make sure of that.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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The more I look at this thread - the more pissed it makes me.
Here's a question for you Blue - ever meet an illegal in your life?
I mean really meet one mano-o-mano?
When I was saving up to buy my house, I lived in the slums of Santa Barbara for eight years to cut my expenses in order to stash some cash. By "slums" I mean the part of town where you could count the number of white guys on one hand. Every neighbor of mine was either Southeast Asian or Hispanic and yes, many were illegals.
It was great in a way - I taught them basic English and helped them decipher phone bills and such and they made me tamales and taught me how to cook up a good bowl of pho.
What I learned during those eight years of self-induced poverty was that these were hard working people with dreams of success in the golden land...not for themselves...but for their kids.
They had strong family ties and real family values that would put the Republicans to shame.
They really wanted their kids to learn English and make something of themselves even if was to take a few generations to get there.
Not one of them had any sense of entitlement or belief that they were owed anything by this country.
They still loved their homeland, but also thought that hamburgers and the Dodgers were the coolest things ever.
And for their efforts they were also subjected to living a life of fear and distrust. Fear of capture and deportation and the distrust of people like yourself who blamed these people for our own failures.
Sadly, this is nothing new in America. Every immigrant group from the Irish to the Italians to Gypsies to Jews have endured this small-minded crap from some jerk calling himself a "real American".
Remember this - the ONLY people with the right to call themselves REAL AMERICANS are the redskinned people - if you aren't from the rez - YOU are an immigrant too.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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The economy is taking care of this problem in a big way.
I love the Nationals.
I used to party with them.
They are good people. And a lot of fun.
Bluering, you want to deport the the US Chicanos, and bring in the Nationals.
It would be really hard to rent a apt while washing plates at Denny's, so no thanks to living with 5 people.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I still think that a consensus of clear minded, thoughtful folk that have the US of A fore front and in their best interests could and would come up with a general plan to put this nation back on track. Get rid of Greed should be the VERY FIRST objective. Peace and Grace, Lynnie
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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To sit back and call anyone racist who discusses trying to solve the problem of giving away billions of dollars, each year, to folks who aren't working and shouldn't legally qualify for said handout, is f*#king ignorant and short-sighted. It's the same as when the debate of over-population comes up. There are no easy answers, but something will have to be done, eventually. Just as I can't afford to invite the whole neighborhood over for lunch and dinner every day, without going broke, we cannot sustain feeding those who are not working, generation after generation.
Is this an immigration problem? No. It's a laziness problem. I grew up on a fruit ranch. So I grew up with immigrant workers. I did the same work they did. Picked, pruined, packed, boxed, yadda, yadda. From small kid to adulthood. And I'm certainly the better person for it and have a better work ethic for that. Guys that come here and work their ass off get my respect, for sure. I also believe that they should go through legal channels to get here, no doubt.
However, I do have an issue with all of the lazy f*#ks that are not working, generation after generation. Working the system. Spitting out kids to keep the check coming. "Going to school", yet never really going or making it count to keep from having to get a job. Coming here and setting up drug shops. All while we foot their bills.
On the flip-side, I also have issues with people who hire and pay illegals under the table. It's a two-sided street and the white-man rancher does this out of his own greed. I definitely agree with what Dingus and others have said and don't blame anyone for not wanting to work for a sub-standard wage. As was said - you try renting an aprtment, or even a room on a dishwasher's wage. Forget about trying to feed yourself. Crack down on both sides and it will start to change. Get rid of the deadbeats so that the hard working people can start to get the respect they deserve. Or, keep sitting on your asses and crying "racist" whenever people are at least interested/concerned enough to try to talk about it/a solution. Basically, sit on your ass and get nowhere. I'd rather that you just stfu.
In reality, all the "racist" screamers are doing is showing that they do not have anything prudent to add to the discussion. And, in the end, preventing any *real* discussion from ever happening. Again, no easy answer, but pretending we can keep going at this pace and running things into the ground is certainly not the answer. Grow a set of balls and learn to discuss difficult issues without copping out.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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If it was as simple as giving the jobs from illegal immigrants to citizens, we wouldn't have the problem in the first place. These guys are making the long, dangerous journey here far from their families exactly because there are jobs available.
As was pointed out, this part of the problem is going away right now, as there are fewer jobs.
Sure, you could get more jobs to be taken by citizens by paying more, but that would mean a lot of stuff would cost more. Maybe we'd have more unions as well.
As for H1-B's, I'm pretty sure they are not a drain on society at all. And I'd be only to happy if more money was paid to citizens for programming jobs, but shareholders demand lower IOI, so that means use of cheaper resources. Plus the US is churning out fewer engineer types to begin with. All those math type guys wanted to be hedge fund analysts and managers instead.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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maybe the answer is in the 2004 film A Day Without a Mexican
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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Well, they used to own California, sold it to us for a dime, even though Gold had just been discovered.
So if a few want to come back "home" and get rotten wages for sucky work, so be it.
They have been here since I have been here, so i doubt they re going anywhere.
The real issue is getting Mexico so it does not suck so bad that the people are willing to grovel at these terible jobs, miles from their families.
HeaRD ON npr TODAY that case load for deportation judges is so back logged that they get 1/6 of a clerk, unless you work in SF, you get 1/4 court clerk.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Can't say I blame 'em. Mexico is about an inch away from being a 'failed state.' Juarez had what, like 3000 murders last year?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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Life is never about them and us. Ever. Life is about clearly living out the parameters of the founding fathers. They had foresight and clarity for this country.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Juarez is OK now.
There were a couple of cartels battling for turf.
I think the Sinaloa guys won, with Caro Quintero calling the shots from his luxerious jail.
NAME: CARO-QUINTERO, Rafael
FUGITIVE NCIC#: W434766259
WANTED FOR:
The following alleged Federal Drug Violations:
* KIDNAPPING AND MURDER OF A FEDERAL AGENT, violent crimes in aid of racketeering, aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact. Also wanted for: possession with intent to distribute marijuana and cocaine, murder, continuing criminal enterprise.
JURISDICTION: Central District of California
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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A few things to remember Blue, the illegals work for less which means many things in america cost less. Plus the cost of giving them things like health care is offset by the taxes they pay and by the fact that they pay social security taxes but can't collect it. I wonder what a proper study would show about the net gain or loss to America of having illegals working here.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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"Life is about clearly living out the parameters of the founding fathers. They had foresight and clarity for this country. "
While that aplies, I would wager they weren't so prepared for the topic we're discussing here, Lynne. Different times, different issues. Back in their day, if you were lazy and didn't work your ass off, you simply starved. No big entity in the sky to take care of you. Your worth was in your labor. Not to say there weren't poor people. Just that lazy, mooching types weren't nearly as common.
Rather than living in a time when a guy who works his ass off (hunting, growing crops, felling trees and building, etc) made as much as he was willing to work, a guy that works his ass off now is helping to support folks who haven't worked in years. Different times.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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One can be against illegal immigration, or even against legal immigration, and not be a racist. Too often, though, rants against illegal immigration start to sound xenophobic and bigoted, and quite often they are. Xenophobia, bigotry, racism, and illegal immigration have one very common characteristic...an idea of 'us and them'. It's easy to see how a strong opinion against immigration would be construed as racist.
With that said, one can also be against illegal immigration and have compelling reasons for this belief, and still a be a racist...who uses this topic to vent racist frustrations. It's easy to see how bluering's statement could be construed as racist. Outspoken racists usually sound vitriolic and hateful. Well, that's just bluering. Jesus must have told him to be that way.
Me personally, I'm all for legal immigration and an improved US immigration policy. However, I do believe the US should police its borders, like every other first world country.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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I think the Tulare grower's problem matches my own experience. My first real job in high school was agricultural labor -- specifically picking grapes for raisins. I chose that because I could make in a couple of weeks as much as my friends who worked for the (Lyndon Johnson/Pat Brown) minimum wage made all summer. I made enough to buy a rope, enough webbing for aid slings, ten runners and lots of rappel anchors, 20 'biners and 20 chrome moly pegs, and 2 pairs of shoes and a Yosemite Hammer in one harvest season.
Contrary to DMT's assumption, harvesting pays substantially more than a living wage. There's three problems: (1) construction pays more, (2) harvesting doesn't pay well until you get the hang of the technique, and (3)those inconvenient fruits have relatively short-lived harvest seasons, so you need to keep moving around to where the fruit is ready to pick. That pretty much kills your children's chances to get a good education.
Contrary to Blue's assumption, however, the migrant workers take no jobs away from citizens. The citizens have organized their lives to make it impossible for them to do the work. First, as I said, you need to know the technique before it becomes lucrative. The best time to learn is when you're young. When I was in high school (in the 1960's), school here didn't start until the Monday after Labor Day. Now it starts in the middle of August, i.e., just about the time to harvest Thompson seedless grapes if you're making raisins. Picking grapes -- an ideal teenage job -- is now impossible for teenagers here unless they become truants.
To make matters worse, the homework load in modern high schools makes meaningful, paying work an either-or proposition. A student may either work for money, or take AP classes, but not both. I question whether the extra homework really teaches anything more, particularly after watching my daughters go through mountains of homework in high school, but retain virtually nothing. The need to "re-center" the SAT's to hide the declining test scores bears me out on that.
Quite simply, immigration is not a zero-sum game, and it saddens me to see so many otherwise free-marketeers try to restrict the supply of labor. Immigrant laborers don't take from this country; they give. They are criminals only in the sense that they run afoul of racist immigration rules. (Lest you jump on me for calling them that, why is it that I, a native-born American, get to wait years for my relatives to come here, while those of different national origin can bring their relatives here immediately? Why should I have different rights from someone of, say, Western European origin, just because my national origin isn't from Western Europe?)
I do agree with Blue on one thing: those illegal immigrants who commit other crimes in this country should serve time in their own countries' prisons. They do cost us money, and contribute nothing but grief. Otherwise, though, I think we need to re-do our immigration and work rules to fit justice and reality. I'm sorry, but I just can't get worked up over someone who comes here to work, and who demands virtually nothing but his or her wages. They could teach our citizens a few good lessons about entitlements.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:01am PT
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Mr Moosie fails to grasp one of the principal reasons for hiring an illegal; Zero Paperwork.
This means zero Social Security tax paid, which is the real reason they "can't collect".
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Ummm, yeah. When you're working under a fake name or under the table, you're not paying taxes or soc. sec.
It really sounds like most of us are at least on the same path. It really doesn't sound so much as people are against immigration. Of course some are. And, as JElezerian said, of course some are just bigots.
I'd really like to see it all overhauled so that it works for all and benefits the folks who come here and bust there ass. At the same time, I'd like to see the deadbeats and criminals and dead weight types have there chains cut so they can fall back into the sea from which they came.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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I thought Ol blue married a cute Asian girl?
I am the only white guy in production at work.
I work with about 10 Vietnamese people.
And one Mexican thrown in for good measure.
It has been a pleasure to work with these folks for 15 years.
They are never late, never sick, never drunk, they work faster and harder, they don't talk back (except Ernesto), only sometimes do I get pissed because they speak Vietnames all day, and when they laugh at a good joke, I feel excluded, but have managed to not let it bother me. And i have managed to learn enuff of the lingpo to not get ripped off in Saigon City.
not Ho Chi min City.
Please.
Chao Tam Biet'
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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Now if someone wants to make a bold claim that the world belongs to he who has the most guns - well OK. But I can't handle the hypocrisy of people who cop a self-righteous tone and call others "illegals". Fock, we're all illegals - unless you happen to have a deed signed my the man upstairs. If you don't like it go home to Ireland, or Germany or England, or where ever your sorry family came from. Neo-cons are SOO pathetic.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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There are two side to every story.
I bet you have a job right now.
The poor old white guy next door pours mud for a living.
He has to work harder because the illegals do the work for so cheap that he gets outbid on all his construction jobs.
So he has no choice but to drop his rates to match up.
As an independent, company of one, I can see his angry views on immigration.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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I grew up with Illegals. They had stolen social security numbers and fake Ids. They paid taxes. They just couldn't collect any benefits because the numbers were on someone else's social security. They rarely collect unemployment because it is too dangerous. They often work through agencies that help them do the paperwork. Farmers pay taxes because it is too dangerous not to. The IRS is more dangerous then the immigration officers. Housekeepers who work through an agency have the same deal. Yes there are jobs that pay cash, but those are fewer then you think and the employer is also breaking the law. These agencies that illegals work through were set up to insulate the farmers from prosecution.
Edit: And no, I am not supporting illegals. I am just pointing out a few things. I would love to see immigration reform, but I don't know what the answer is.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Yes, this is true now, John. Wasn't when I was a kid 20 years ago though.
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adam d
climber
CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:43am PT
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regardless of your stance on undocumented immigrants (no I don't call them illegal. actions are illegal not people.) I hope people on both sides can see that the amount of money that has been spent on an ineffective border fence is absurd.
Not only is it extremely expensive and it does not have to adhere even to the minor inconvenience of an EIS, but several studies have shown that it only alters migration patterns rather than curtailing them. In fact, some studies show that increased border enforcement is keeping undocumented immigrants in the US when they would rather return to Mexico for part of the year.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 04:25am PT
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This is a joke issue (although there are issue involved) because the real vested interests are the conservatives.
Half the conservatives like to think of the Illegals as the poster childs for government money going to undeserving poor illegal people.
The other half are wealthy (or not so wealthy) farmers and business people who won't or can't pay sustainable "american" wages to induce legal citizens to pick crops, mow lawns and do the dirty work.
It seems disingenuous when they point to "Liberals" for all the problems associated with this issue. You can round up an kick out 12 million people in a variety of fairly harsh ways, but you don't really have a clue who is going to be hurt or helped economically by it.
It's kind of like a "Don't ask, Don't tell" solution to something they really don't want solved as much as they think
PEace
Karl
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Feb 10, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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An aspect to this that you don't see discussed much, at least not among the Bluering the Limbaugh Drone wingnut crowd:
Age wave. In short, the boomers are all about to start retiring and the worker to retiree ratio is going to plummet from around 16:1 in 1950 to about 2:1 once the boomers retire. Families are also smaller these days, exacerbating the problem. The USA, most of Europe and Japan are in the same boat.
So in a very real sense, we NEED immigrants. Not just because they'll do work we won't, but to help support our aging population.
I live with two guys who are British and Irish, and are pursuing citizenship. Both have been in the US legally for about 8 years. They pay taxes, and fill jobs where we have shortages of qualified workers. The hoops to citizenship, or even legal immigration are overly burdensome. These guys have spent thousands going through the process and more thousands having to return to Britain occasionally to renew work visas.
We don't need to get rid of immigrants, we need MORE immigrants. We need to streamline the immigration process and expand temporary worker programs. We need to give amnesty to those already here and welcome them into the fold to expand our tax revenue base and confront the age wave.
You shouldn't be angry with the immigrants, they are just doing what all of our ancestors did (pardon me if you're native american). You should be angry with those who hire them and pay them so little that they are dependent on public services. It is that business owner that is cheating you, and subsidizing his payroll via your taxes that pay for those public services.
But I don't hear the Limbaugh drones complaining about those small business owners. Nope, much easier to HATE THE OTHER.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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I'm actually shocked I wasn't called a racist or bigot more here.
I thought this would've been obvious, but let me state I'm not opposed to documented legal immigration. Whether it be for low-skilled jobs or higher-skilled jobs like engineers.
The problem I have is when qualified Americans are overlooked for lower-paid immigrants. What is the net-effect of this?
And yeah, I do agree there are a lot of Lazy Americans that feel they're 'entitled' to certain pay without paying their dues in the trenches. I personally know worthless people like this.
I'm also not denying the fact that employers are almost equally to blame.
It's a uneasy problem that keeps getting ignored by lawnakers.
There's also the cost of social services that puts a unnecessary strain on economies.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Nice Post, Ricky D.
You hit the nail on the head.
I've had the very same experiences that you have
with immigrants.
There's no such thing as an illegal human being. Period.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Interesting.
Those people who are SCREAMING about not raising taxes to pay for services, who SHOUT about how Gov't is the problem, not the solution, who want to "Starve the Beast" by cutting income to the Gov't.....
Are now the ones who want to create a massive new GOV'T program, paid for by TAXES.
What happened to that integity involved with smaller gov't and lower taxes? Ya only believe in that when it is convenient?
(like we didn't know.......)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Dingus and Ken, I see. Maybe we should just completely open our borders, after all, we 'stole' California and have no more right to be here than anyone else who wants to come. And how dare we enforce U.S. border laws. That's totally xenophobic! The only people that come here are well-intentioned, tax-paying migrant workers, nobody else.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Don't forget bluey, they pay into social security and
get nothing for it too!
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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"Other than a few property owners on the border almost all illegal immigrantion protest is born of xenophobia.
White Californians, for exmaple, have a 150+ year sordid history of rasism and ethnic insult, prejudice and descrimination.
First it was the Indians and Mexicans. Then it was the Chinese. Then came the Irish, the Oakies, the Filipinos, more mexicans (the ones who were screwed over and ROBBED in WWII - by CA farmers) - a host of nationalities and ethnicities. Oh sh#t they REALLY stuck it to the Japanese, virtually OUTLAWED them around the turn of the 20th century. Started a path of degeneration that eventually led to the pacific theater of WWII.
Virtually none of them have escaped the White Wrath of Xenophobic Californians who have no more right to be here than the next woman."
Dingus, I mostly agree, BUT it is not just limited to Californians.
A fundamental current of conservatism has been an antipathy to diversity. It goes back to the early days of the US, and includes the groups you mention plus, at one time or another, an antipathy towards granting equality to blacks, eastern Europeans, Jews, Catholics, Germans, Muslims/Arabs, gays, or women. It's been about preserving the status of WASP men (though catholics seem to be welcome nowadays).
Now we see this trend manifested in the religious right and the Michael Savage (who is basically a skinhead with hair) xenophobic wing.
This is why conservatism will never disappear: there will always be a "them." But now the thems are increasingly outnumbering the conservatives, so politically they have a problem.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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dirtbag...do you really believe that?
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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100%. Now more than ever.
Not to say all conservatives buy it, because there are free-markets conservatives, neocons, etc. But racism, xenophobia, etc. are important themes in American history, and they are conservative, status quo oriented impulses. They haven't gone away.
Edit: and yes, I do believe that Michael Savage is basically a skinhead with hair.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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unbelievable....I guess that's why this problem is constantly ignored as it grows.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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No, that's not why it's ignored.
I agree that having an underclass of people who are here illegally is a huge problem.
BUT--I've also seen a lot of good old fashioned xenphobia mixed in the arguments too. A lot of people just don't like Mexicans.
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kjh
Trad climber
seattle
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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I am a carpenter born here and have worked in the trade for 20 yrs. I know my previous boss has some people not legal to work here still working while I was layed off for lack of work. What say you to this? Also as a funny side note. I was just climbing in El Potrero Chico and when I left to go home the Mexican border police wanted to fine me for entering Mexico without a tourist visa. They told me I had to get my stuff off the bus and could not leave till I payed. I told the guy "OK I'll stay" and he said "Get back onto the Bus!".
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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Notice how I said "conservatives" and not "Americans" Fatty?
Please don't put words in my mouth (or in my post).
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 10, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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With the exception of this post, I am not touching this thread, it's toxic, and I would just be accused of something I am not guilty of.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Just because I'm a conservative who thinks illegal immigration is damaging to this country, now I hate Mexicans?
I do understand that farm workers might be needed, but I think we can get around that problem too, we've just grown too reliant on cheap manual labor. It's time to change.
As far as contruction work, I think we have plenty of workers here legally looking for work. 'Shovel-ready' jobs and stuff. Did you know that they removed the E-Verify provision of the upcoming bill that would have FORCED contracts to go to legal contractors. Our gov't is part of this problem too!
On a side note, it's time for Mexico to change too, as a country.
kjh, that sucks!
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drljefe
climber
Toostoned, AZ
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Feb 10, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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Although we refer to them generically as "Mexicans",
a great deal of them come from Guatemala, El Salvador, and other
Central American countries.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Fatty, remember that lady who stood up at one of McCain's town hall events and said she was worried that Obama was an Arab?
There are many others like her.
Edit:
And, how many conservatives voted for Prop 8?
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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We've been through this before in America. In the 1930s,with the economy going down, there was the same hysteria to get rid ove those job stealers. But then we need to institute the "Bracero" program to help produce for WWII.
The detractors always focus on the stats that prove how much Illegals remove from the economy, but interestingly enough, they never show the stats for how much they bring into the economy.
Illegal immigrants can produce revenue in a variety of ways.
I don't know the answer, but the state of Texas produced a study a couple of years ago that seems to say illegal immigrants are a net economic gain for their economy.
http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/6economic.html
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 10, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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We could catch the illegals with nets and poles.
Each one you drop back at the border gets you $1000 dollars.
Juan
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Colby, it appears that the study in your link only accounts for 'workers' and the impact they would have on the economy if they disappeared.
It doesn't take into account effects of spouses and children on the economy, which is the biggest burdon. It also doesn't take into account criminal illegal immigrants.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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Those of us who have been around awhile can remember when the word appearing the most frequently on ST was "STFU". In this thread we have an emotionally charged issue for which the discussion has remained in-bounds. Go ahead. Tell me we are not getting better.
Next I would like to deal with "politically correct." There is nothing in the Constitution saying politically incorrect things cannot be said. If one is dispassionately pointing out what they believe is a dependence, or what they believe is an available option, It is up to those who disagree to dispassionately point out contrary dependences or contrary data. Discussions should deal with possible alternatives and data.
Political correctness is just an opinion and here the opinion of the speaker is what is important. The speaker who understands their audience so poorly as to say something pro forma unacceptable to the audience, wastes their time and the time of the audience.
But to my proposal.
If one wishes to lower the level of mass migration to the US, one might expect a number of changes need be made; changes which then act in concert. The net effect of them being that foreign nationals find it not quite so clear that something better lies on the other side of a border. Such might be termed the “bottom up” approach to answering the problem. A fence at the border, even with enfiladed automatic machine gun fire can be got round with a little digging. Humans are really good at working around simple actions imposed “top down.”
Each of the following listed in no particular order, best taken altogether, might tend to produce an effect.
1. Distinctly poorer economic conditions in the US
2. More difficulty getting across the border
3. No employment in the US absent legal status
4. More difficulty transferring funds home
5. Better economic conditions at home
6. Better family planning at home
7. Markedly lower consumption of drugs by Americans
8. A creditable process in the US for setting immigration goals
It might make economic sense to deport convicted criminal aliens rather than paying a yearly cost greater (I understand) than the tuition at Harvard to hold them in prison. The cost of deportation used in this calculation would, however, have to include the cost of re-apprehending them when they come back, as many do.
Two hundred years ago prisoners were sent to Australia, Georgia, and French Guiana. Those of us who are not aborigine might point to Australia as an approach that may have had value.
Perhaps a wrinkle on this is worth considering. While describing it I am, painfully twisting in the wind, as Jeff proposes something like it. We have an empty Federal prison in Boron California. Other such opportunities may exist in Nevada. If prisoners had no vessels in which to carry water, few would be able to escape across sixty or eighty miles of low desert. (I suspect we also have the national technical means to see people crossing such a desert.) By itself that is not an answer either. But if the prison were a work camp wherein the inmates could do work that would both help pay the cost of imprisonment and teach them new marketable skills, their future upon eventual deportation might be brighter in their homelands. They must leave the plant with a fair value for their labor in their pocket or perhaps better sent ahead to their families in Mexico. Prisoners most liable to act as parasites on their fellows would not be included in this effort.
I imagine that this labor force might be involved in the construction of plants for the collection of solar radiation and facilities for transmission of the energy. Individuals thought trustworthy and nearing the end of their stay, might be used for building transmission facilities far from the central plant, as this would also make a good transition phase prior to release. Those not interested in taking part constructively could be left in their cells, and since they are not burning calories in physical labor, might be well sustained on half rations.
Since one nation, Mexico, is reportedly over its peak oil that country might be interested in gaining a new income from exporting solar energy captured in Mexico. The US is a potential customer for that energy, so a cooperative program might be developed to use the people trained in the US for this development inside Mexico.
It is very easy to imagine many things and always difficult to make things real. This is no exception.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Figures it'd be Jstan to propose some real ideas and rational discussion. As opposed to just implying that I'm racist or xenophobic for trying to discuss this issue.
Thanks for those thoughts, John. I need to read over them again though before I comment.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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It's both employers and border crossers, Dr. F.
We would all pay more if wages were equalized across the board.
Are you a Marxist? Seriously. PhD's making the same as GED's?
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal Hell
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Feb 10, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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From the New York Times:
The real issue is not race or color. It is numbers, cost and crime.
In a recent conversation, a contractor stated that the number of day workers, mostly illegal, congregating in Farmingville may reach 1,000 on some days. Large numbers throw trash around, urinate publicly and harass women. Indeed, in neighborhoods throughout the Island that have seen the appearance of hordes of day laborers, the quality of life has declined for American citizens, and property values of nearby neighborhoods have fallen as well.
The illegal workers certainly are cheaper than native-born Americans, but the value of the menial jobs most perform -- landscaping, unskilled labor -- is exceeded by the real costs of their presence -- overpopulated schools, larger classes and more expenditure for bilingual and special-ed programs. Illegals commonly use food stamps and other forms of welfare, driving up these costs, and they have been major users of public health allocations and emergency medical services, all of which translate into higher taxes, which few of them pay. The landscapers and construction companies are well satisfied with their cheap labor because they can shunt off the real costs to everyone else.
It is true that most of the illegals are only seeking work. But there are a significant number among them who are involved in crime. The MS-13 gang, comprised of Central American immigrants, primarily Salvadorans, is now the largest and most violent on the Island.
Without control of the borders, where this current disaster begins, homeland security will remain a joke. The disputes at Farmingville are simply a local manifestation of a national crisis, and the problems will persist until governments take their collective heads out of the sand.
H.F. Hazelbaker
Woodbury
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 10, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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learn spanish.
it will make your
assimilation much
easier.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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From that last article posted, anyone that refers to themselves as living on "the Island", probably deserves whatever bad behaviour they have incurred.
And MS-13 is a nasty outfit, but as far as I know their activities are generally not focussed on enclaves that tend to refer to themselves as "the Island". Unless maybe they sell coke to the rich guys, in which case I have no sympathy for the rich guys.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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I don't know if anyone mentioned above, but interesting fact - US/Mexico border is the only border in the world (so I'm told) where a third world country meets a first world country. No wonder they are coming.
Think about it, would you be willing to hike across the border into Canada (and risk deportation) if you could earn 10 times your current salary. I sure would. I guess that makes me a sociopath. ha
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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A long time ago I used to pick up illegals and bring them back to the job site for my boss because I knew enough spanish to negotiate the wage, etc. I mostly found the guys hard working and good natured, though certainly not all (just like any other group).
Lately the crowds of day laborers seem out of hand due to lack of work. I have to think people will go back or not come in the first place due to lack of opportunity. It's complicated.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Jstan laid this wisdom down describing conditions that would stem the tide of illegal immigration;
1. Distinctly poorer economic conditions in the US
2. More difficulty getting across the border
3. No employment in the US absent legal status
4. More difficulty transferring funds home
5. Better economic conditions at home
6. Better family planning at home
7. Markedly lower consumption of drugs by Americans
8. A creditable process in the US for setting immigration goals
1. I hope that never happens. We are getting closer but I doubt that Mexico/SA will ever be a better prospect.
2. I agree, it will never be impenetrable (and it shouldn't, really) but make it harder and more easily defensible with electronics AND agents.
3. No arguement, this should be common sense. Employers are fined for infractions, people deported.
4. I agree, but hard to implement. See #3, no jobs, no income to send home.
5. YES!!! I totally agree that after the border is secured that we have a large interest in bringing Mexico to a working economy and social system.
6. Not sure what you mean here, John. Elaborate.
7. Yes. We already provide a lot of our own pot. It's the coke that's a problem. That and cheap, low-quality heroine. Suck it up, junkies, quit...I did!
8. Yes. Once all the above is accomplished, this one would natuarlly fall into place.
Rockermike, Mexico I think is considered 2nd world, not 3rd. Guatamala maybe 3rd, not Mexico. This is why Mexico could easily come into a developed nation with economic sanity and fewer drug-gangs killing police/politicians trying to make that change.
Dr.F, can you please stop destoying the discussion with your unsane ideological rants.
EDIT: Ontheedge...again...I'm not saying they're unproductive, but they need to be made legal and part of the system. You CANNOT have undocumented people roaming around destroying our system of law and order. That includes employment, taxation, and services.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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I think someone on back said something about how we did it in taking this continent. That's quite correct. The Indians should have had a little more foresight and wiped our ancestors out while they had the chance. They didn't, and now look where they are.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Blue, I wasn't responding to anything you said- just saying that my day to day interactions were positive.
I agree that something should be done, but I don't have any expectation that anything will be due to ideological entrenchment on both sides.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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but I am not a Marxist.
I'm a progressive,
So, you are a liar also.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Can anyone comment as to how dependent the U.S. economy is on illegal immigrant labourers? The vast majority do unskilled or semi-skilled work, often in difficult or dangerous conditions, jobs that few citizens would do for what the immigrants are paid.
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andanother
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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In certain parts of the country, Mexicans do the jobs that no "self respecting" American would ever do.
So the argument is that we need SOMEONE to do those nasty jobs, right? Well that argument doesn't hold up to well.
Spend some time in the northeast portion of the country, and you'll notice that things are getting along just fine without Mexicans.
You see, up there they have a group of people called "teenagers". They wash dishes. They work at gas stations. They clean the grease traps at the fast food joints. They do all the things that are considered "Mexican jobs" in the other parts of the country. And they do it at minimum wage.
And you know what?
It's pretty darn good for them. They obtain a strong work ethic from a young age. They appreciate people more. And instead of sitting home after school playing video games and getting fat, they acquire real life experience!
Why do you think people from CA and the southeast are spoiled little brats?
So, in summary, I think I'm going to have to agree with bluering on this one.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
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Here's the thing, the farming/harvesting industry is overdue for mechanization. Until that happens I have no problem with temporary work permits with rights/benefits for workers...not the whole family. This feels like human rights abuse though, quasi-enslavement even though they do it voluntarily.
If these people are granted citizenship, they're next generation will seek out better prospects like any wise Americam immigrant. That leaves us with no new workers, hence, the need to start developing a mechanized process to eliminate this work. At least most of it, there will be operators and supervisors to oversee it.
Let's come together for 'change'.
I think I have said before that a lot of our Chinese manufacturing can be moved to Mexico/SA where we get a 2-fer, better/closer/cleaner labor and improvement of our politically friendly neighbor's nation. This seems so common sensicle to me that there must be a political conspiracy to dissuade it. Whay wouldn't we want to do this?
Andy...I'm shocked, yet concur with you. Your post nails a huge problem right on the head. IMO, your best post ever!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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The problem has precisely one root cause - illegal / criminal employers, period - end of story. Make it a $10k fine per each illegal employment event / person hired, annual summary reporting, random auditing, and add a three strikes out-of-business cap, and 'illegal immigration' would vanish within three years - no fences or border patrol of any kind required.
All the bullsh#t, right-wing, racist posturing is just that - and the entire 'illegal immigration' issue in total is simply the right and corporations playing the average red-stater for fools they seem intent on being.
It's the employers, and not the employees, who are the problem. Numbers also dictate the solution - employers are small in numbers compared to employees and have fixed addresses - solutions to address 'the problem' from their side are simple by comparison to attempts at any employee-side solutions which are statistically doomed to failure before they even launch.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Feb 10, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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"Spend some time in the northeast portion of the country, and you'll notice that things are getting along just fine without Mexicans."
That is an entirely untrue statement - maybe you are talking about Vermont or Maine, but PA, NJ, NY, MA, CT (the states that actually have sizable populations and large cities) all contain many immigrants, many from South or Central America, some with legal status, many without.
Congrats to jstan and bluering for reaching for some reasonable solutions.
And while I have no interest in "equalizing compensation" or any such claptrap, I do believe that a movement toward a living wage for all workers in the country would have a profound, positive effect on all of the issues which surround illegal immigration, and many other difficulties which we seem unable to resolve. People with legal status in this country would be willing to perform many jobs that might be considered "demeaning" if the wages they were paid did not make the rest of their lives demeaning as well.
Of course this would lead to higher prices for many of the basic goods that we all consume - higher wages for fruit pickers, and produce aisle workers, and truckers, would be passed on to all consumers. I get that. But I am of the opinion that our sense of value has been heavily skewed by the low prices we pay for things like dairy product, fruit, and pressboard furniture from China. We ought to be paying more for those sorts of goods, and in turn buying a lot fewer flat-screen HD TVs (with $80 monthly satellite bills), $300 cell phones (with $50 monthly fees). We should not replace our cars quite so often, or leave the engine running while waiting for our kids to get out of school - for that matter, our kids should walk to school or take the bus, reducing our need for gasoline and diabetes medication.
So, I guess in a way I agree with Lynne....greed is a big part of the problem.
I do not think the requirement that workers be paid a living wage is a slippery slope to socialism - I think it is good sense. Everything we use in life requires maintenance, at a cost - your car would not be so useful if you did not change the tires, replace the oil, and refill the power steering fluid when appropriate. How do we expect human beings to remain useful members of society when their wages do not allow them to live in a reasonable shelter, consume healthy food, take time to help their kids with their homework, and see the dentist once a year?
So pay people a wage that allows them to live a dignified, by no means extravagant, life. Give the immigrants who have been working here for at least a few years some opportunity to gain legal status, while also collecting back taxes in some form or another. Crack down like crazy on those employers who are not hiring people who are not already legal, or pursuing legal status.
These are tough issues to work out, but the attitude of the Republican party over the last few years - which is not to say all conservatives or all Republicans, but the members of Congress and the presidential candidates - has been to stick their head in the sand and blame the people who generally have darker skin. It might not be strictly racist, but it certainly appeals to many bigots who are US citizens.
More sensors and agents on the border sounds outrageously expensive, entirely ineffective and ecologically disastrous. Why not work with the laws of supply and demand?
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andanother
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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"PA, NJ, NY, MA, CT (the states that actually have sizable populations and large cities) all contain many immigrants, many from South or Central America, some with legal status, many without. "
Weird.
For work, I used to travel to restaurants regularly in many of those states you listed. So what you're saying is that the thousands of white teenagers I saw working there were actually illegal Asians?
Those Asians are sneaky! I never even knew!
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Feb 10, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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andanother, I don't know what to tell you - maybe you only see what you want to see.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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it depends on what jobs we're talking about. Dishwashers, hotel maids, fast food, etc... can all be handled by high-school students and uneducated workers that are citizens.
The big sticking point is agricultural labor wher SA's have a lot of experience. But nobody wants to talk about mechanization of this process in the 21st f*#king century! We still employ people to bend over in the sun and pick vege's. This seems as antiquated as current dentistry practices. There has to be a better way.
I agree with andy's point that a lot of Western kids refuse to do some of the 'demeaning' jobs because they think they have skills....so what! You have to grind in the machine and earn your place like everybody else does. It DOES build character and respect for other people, as well as granting valuable life skills. It a process that kids today skip to their detriment.
I was a weird case because I lived overseas until I graduated high school. I came back here and did menial retail jobs through college as well as making pizza/cleaning dishes/ and delivering said pizza.
Anyway, it's good that people are actually thinking about this instead of name-calling over it.
Nowadays, I work with legal Mexican immigrants and Vietnamese immigrants who all get along work well together. Sounds like me and Dr. Sprock are in a similar environment actually.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Feb 10, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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I am reasonably sure I understand Marginal Utility, I'm just not sure how I am "fighting" it...if you are trying to say that all the jobs will get sent offshore, well, has that not pretty much already happened?
I have worked in some menial jobs as well, including restaurant and retail stocking jobs in high school. In college, I managed to get work in an accounting department, it paid better (marginal utility, no?)
But that was on weekends or in summer. This idea that high school students are going to do all of our menial jobs begs the question "Who is going to perform those jobs on a Tuesday at 10am?" High school (and college) students with part-time jobs is a fine idea, but I think we all benefit when STUDents can STUDy. Total red herring that does not begin to address the issues that bluering and jstan are delving into. Are we not trying to get more adults working and on the tax rolls, rather than having unemployed or underemployed citizens while illegal immigrants make up a thriving employment black market?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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Mechanized harvesting.....
there is a conspiracy...try googling anybody researching the mechanization of harvesting crops. Russians and China. This is a good project for an enterprising soul.
I know some capable people...lemme see. I even know the son of a fertilizer distibutor....all the right people.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Mexico is always suffering economically, but during this meltdown, it is really bad down there.
This is the only guy hiring.
They have murdered most of his family.
Today, the Mexican Army shot up 21 people in Juarez.
So tough times everywhere for those migrant guys.
El Chapo
This guy is the most wanted man in Mexico.
They found 200 million laying around his house.
He walked into a Juarez Restaurant, locked the doors, and had his bodyguards confiscate 40 cell phones.
When he was leaving, he plopped down a wad of 100 dollar bills and told everybody to order up.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Feb 10, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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It's intesting that empathy is missing from so many people.
When I hear people demonize illegal immigrants, I wonder if they even thought what it's like for these people. If I was in a third world country and I couldn't get a job and feed my family I would want to be legal, but if I had to break a law to help my family survive I wouldn't hesistate.
The system is broken. Personaly I believe we should have guest worker programs so people can take the minimum wage they earn here and bring it back to their own countries where the cost of living is much lower and live ok. That would be efficient. But since the current system is broken and employers take advantage of it, I can't blame the broke ass illegal who is just trying to work hard and make enough money to survive.
I recently saw Under the Same Moon, a great movie about an illegal immigrant mom's son having to come find him mom in the US after his grandmother dies. It's good to see things from another perspective.
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Feb 11, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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In response to my previous post that shows the study of Texas.
"It doesn't take into account effects of spouses and children on the economy, which is the biggest burdon. It also doesn't take into account criminal illegal immigrants."
I only posted a link to part of the study, bluering. It's been a little while since I perused the whole thing, but I believe they did include the costs of illegals in most facets, including crime/jail and social programs.
Here is a link from a news article talking about the study.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080702/NEWS/807020304/-1/SPECIAL62
I am short on time with this post. I didn't have time to read this article (I only skimmed it), it is just the first one that google brought up.
I don't like Pres. Bush, but I think this was one issue he actually understood. There was probably a reason he did not go with the conservatives on this issue. I think he believed illegal immigrants were better for our economy.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Feb 11, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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The problem isn't the immigration. The problem(s) are the wages paid for such jobs. No one wants to do it for $2/hr!? No sh#t. Pay more and "americans" will find those jobs desireable.
I'd like to see the numbers as to what percentage of total revenue from a produce/farm company is expensed on wages.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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Good thread folks!
Blue:
About my family planning item. I would be very surprised if more than one migrant in five were here for any reason other than they had to do it to feed their own family or their family of origin. It really is not easy to stand at the curb with a hundred others, hoping a car will stop next to you. What are the odds?
Over population contributes to what is happening. No doubt about it. Each situation is a little different so to help, someone has to be there to sense the dynamics and offer options.
As an example look at my family. Between 1750 and 1850 Stannard families had as many as twelve children. Then in 1840 Daniel Stannard could not support his twelve and he had to emigrate to Montana to work in mining. We have not been able to discover what happened to him. One of his daughters, Ellen, went to live with Dan's brother Albert who emigrated in 1853 from New Marlborough MA to the Binghamton NY area by oxcart. Ellen married John Stannard, one of Albert's sons and she, my great grandmother, was known as "mother". She died in 1928 and her picture suggests she was one lively but tough cookie.
Out of all these huge families there are now only two breeding males from that line. In our case it was almost like a bloom of algae. This is the problem that nature presents us. Our reproductive capacity has allowed the specie to surmount many challenges these past million years. The challenge now is to harness our intellect so as to find an answer.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Jstan, okay I gotcha. I agree too, maybe not forced family planning like China but education. Things like how much of a family can you support (legally) and birth control options. I'm generally against abortions though as a solution to this. If you don't want children, either use birth control or don't breed!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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fattrad,
I know I seldom disagree with you, but I need to make one correction. What you call "the Theory of Marginal Utility" is actually the principle of comparative advantage. The principle you cite, though, is correct. In an efficient economy, workers will work at the job where they can produce for the least cost -- provided that the measure of cost includes opportunity cost.
This can get messy in practice, though, because people often ignore opportunity costs (or believe that they don't exist. I often need to spend quite a bit of time on the concept to get my students to understand -- and then as soon as I apply it to international trade, they forget again.)
I wish more people understood the concept. As you rightly point out, many propose "solutions" that run up against this problem.
bluering,
Again, I seldom disagree with you, but I don't think high school students could possibly take over all of the jobs currently performed by those whose presence in the United States violates existing immigration laws (for brevity, I'll use the term "illegal immigrants" hereafter. I just don't want to hear another "no human being is illegal" slogan.)
I assume without admitting that much agricultural labor gets done by illegal immigrants. The timing of that labor is incompatible with high school, and much of it always was. I'd posted earlier how the trend toward an earlier start of the school year disrupts teenage workers' participation in the grape harvest. Pruning, dormant sprays, and harvesting of citrus and cherries usually take place from December to May. Harvesting cotton and late stone fruit takes place in the fall. I don't think it would do our economy much good to have students drop out of school to perform this work.
In addition, the alleged costs of illegal immigration ignore a key factor in the analysis: the costs of stopping it. This includes not only direct law enforcement costs, but disruptive costs to the economy as industries reorganize their production methods to cope with the shortage of labor.
In short, I don't know an easy solution, but I admit that I have a latent hostility to any proposal that makes it harder for people to come here (or anywhere else) to work.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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jstan,
Population growth and stability affect this discussion in some complicated ways. Economic theory says that if we increase one factor of production (e.g. labor) and do not increase other factors of production proportionately (e.g. land, equipment, technology, etc.), the marginal productivity of the one increased input falls. The wage rate depends on the marginal productivity of labor. Thus if you increase the labor supply, the wage rate will be lower than if you do not.
Population growth certainly increases the labor supply, but it is not the only factor here. The substantial increase in the participation rate of women in the labor force since the 1950's has dramatically increased the labor supply. As an older brother of sisters and a father of daughters, and as a human being that values fairness (Democrats are free to disagree on this last one), I'm grateful for that trend. Even though that trend plays a significant part in a slowing of real wage growth, I doubt that many want to stop it.
Also, the welfare state works best in stable or growing populations. In much of Western Europe and Japan, the low birth rates have caused a long-term strain on their economies because it leads to fewer workers supporting retirees and other recipients of government benefits. The same would happen here, and already has with Social Security.
Having said that, I think humans have populated the Earth quite enough, and I'd love to see population stability. After all, at some point, natural constraints will create that stability for us. All I'm saying is that if we want popultation stability, we will need to modify much of the social contract to take this into account.
John
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Interesting points, John.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Bluering, which part of there is no supply-side solution don't you get? The only ones with managable numbers, fixed addresses, and accessible bank accounts are employers. Crack down on them in any real way and the entire immigration 'problem' evaporates overnight.
When people ignore or attempt to obfusticate that reality and continue whine about the issue it's pretty hard to take it as anything but ignorance, corporate lackeyism, or the usual Rovian politics of hate.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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healyje,
The problem with "cracking down" on employers is that we already have. Their workers produce documentation, but it's fraudulent. If you make employers act as law enforcement, you're inviting them to discriminate against anyone who is an immigrant (legal or otherwise) and even against those who speak, look and act like people born in the States, but whose background suggests that their parents may have come here illegally when the potential worker was very young (thus making them illegal immigrants, too).
The phrase "Rovian politics of hate" seems misplaced in your post. Your disdain of employers smacks of hatred itself, I'm just not sure what to call it. "Kucinichian politics of hate?" "Deanian politics of hate?" "Pelosian poplitics of hate?" I think I do better to call it a bias against employers, and leave it at that. As you note, this issue is much too big for bias against any group.
John
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
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"The problem with "cracking down" on employers is that we already have."
No, we have never attempted a single serious effort of any kind at the federal level to crack down on employers - zip, nada, never.
"Their workers produce documentation, but it's fraudulent."
This is a straw dog - any number of technical means exist to provide bullet-proof unforgable documentation.
"If you make employers act as law enforcement, you're inviting them to discriminate against anyone who is an immigrant ."
Tripe. Workers provide reliable documentation, employers pass it on to government. Government's role is to provide reliable documentation. Refusal to address the 'reliable documentation' part of the problem simply means enforcement is impossible at any point in the system by anyone.
"Your disdain of employers smacks of hatred itself, I'm just not sure what to call it."
Ridiculous, there is no "disdain" for employers in the views I've expressed here - that's an emotional injection on your part. There is no other point in the system where illegal employment can be controlled execpt at the employers - none.
And bluering, your link is another futile attempt at a supply-side crackdown. There is no effective solution on the supply-side - none. Raiding tax accountants ('illegals' paying taxes - those are the smart ones to crack down on) and ecological disasters in the desert are expressions of gross institutional stupidity.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Feb 11, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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Higher wages so Americans will take the jobs won't work. It will increase prices dramaticaly for food/hotels/restaurants, etc. and/or places will go out of business.
Immigrants willing to work for low wages are a resource we should be utilizing (and already are, just illegaly). Low cost labor working for American companies to make profit is a good thing for the overall economy.
The problem isn't immigrants willing to work for low pay for menial jobs, it's that the laws don't reflect reality so there is a huge underground economy where breaking the law is the only way to make businesses profitable.
The Libs will say make all the illegals citizens with full rights. The Cons will say deport all illegals even if they have been productive members of our society for years. As a moderate I think we should have a guest worker program with approriate taxes and benefits, that doesn't penalize people who are currently illegal because that's the only choice they have or know about.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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Bluering, in the end, the entire immigration 'issue' comes down to documentation. The only question is: just how bad do you folks on the right want to solve the issue? If you want it solved the solution is simple, everyone carries a bulletproof national identity card. Period, end of story. No other solution of any kind - supply or demand side - will ever work.
Why do I get the feeling you'd be a card-carrying ACLU member before you accept the only solution which can work...
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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A comment on what would happen to the cost of food were there no low cost
immigrant labor.
In capitalism it is SOP to "externalize" costs, that is keep your cost low by making
others pay. My point is we do not even know the true cost of the broccoli we buy in the
supermarket. The true costs of the immigrant labor appear as a component of many
bills that we have to pay - but we are not able to part them out and see how big they
are.
Another example is the low cost of nuclear power. Nowhere is the cost of Yucca
Mountain included nor the costs of maintaining such a facility for hundreds of years.
An effort finally to have transparency for these and other questions is probably the
one thing we have to have if we are ever to begin solving real problems.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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healyje, I'm not totally opposed to legalizing the workers. Maybe not their families.
In the link I posted earlier they were fraudulently over-collecting taxes they weren't due and the tax preparer was enabling them!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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healyje,
What kind of reliable identification do you propose? I assume from your statements that the government issues no such thing now.
John
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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Rox:
And what happens if a container ruptures or corrodes?
Any tests that have been done are highly accelerated.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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JEleazarian, we have tech companies supplying a variety of secure smartcard-based national identity cards to any number of nations - just not here.
Precise receives order for national id card system
Bluering - people typically come as families - controlling benefits and costs associated with those families is only possible if you control their identities and employment.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Bluering - people typically come as families - controlling benefits and costs associated with those families is only possible if you control their identities and employment.
Then you lose me...that's just a massive migration of low-income people, probably a heavy burden on social services too.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Nowhere did I imply unlimited access to employment or benefits. Once you have the situation under control from a documentation perspective then you are in a position to control employment, say similar to the way we do with H-1B workers, by quota or some other resource allocation scheme.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Send it all to Idaho.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Rox:
You imply no high level waste is slated to go to Yucca Mesa?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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High-level waste from the Hanford Site is slated to go to Yucca Mtn. However, all of this waste will be vitrifed (turned to glass).
jstan, if we dont get power from nuclear, can we build wind farms, coal powered plants and dams in your neighborhood?
I already have all of those including nuclear in mine. I live in a fairly unpopulated area where population centers are making us deal with their sh%%. Its kind of like the NIMBY syndrome. NIMBY but send me all your power....
Sorry, dont want to contribute to hijacking a nice thread about illegals.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Continuing off-topic, I think it's mostly high-level waste that's going to Yucca. Low-level waste goes other places (the Energy Solutions dump in the West Utah desert, for one).
That said, I don't have a huge concern about storage at Yucca, it's the transport that I'm more concerned with.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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stevep,
the transport will be pretty darned safe, at least for the vitrified high level waste.
Check out these TRU containers
http://www.wipp.energy.gov/fctshts/TRUwastecontainers.pdf
They are being used successfully for transport of TRU waste to WIPP.
Having worked at a plant that transported munitions filled with nerve gas like the plant you guys have in Toole, UT, I am far less concerned about the High Level Waste transport than moving the nerve gas.
Or for that matter, any other number of widely used chemicals that are transported daily (chlorine, sulfuric acid, ammonia, etc. etc.)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Back closer to on-topic, why do you think, healyje, that we have not adopted these sorts of secure ID methods here? I'm not asking this as a rhetorical question. I sense that many people want just this sort of ID, but if it is so readily available, there must be some sort of organized opposition.
Thanks.
John
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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One thing I remember. If it is federally mandated then a bunch of new offices need to open up to support it and it costs. If the feds tell the states to do it via Drivers Licenses, then again, the feds need to foot the bill which they dont like.
Plus there are those folks who want to live more under the radar with less govnment involvement. Many of these are the same ones telling illegals they need better documentation then they dont want it for themselves.
I think my neighbor is illegal. He has three kids and is the most family oriented gyu and nice that you will ever meet. Runs a landscaping business and sometimes his wife makes tamales (best I ever had) and the kids sell some to me...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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JEleazarian, yes, there is all sorts of opposition from the Right and Left to a secure national identity card. Cards of this sort could easily be used to hold medical, tax, judicial records as well as identity. It's easy to imagine futures where you'd need to use it to start your car for instance, which would only work if you have no outstanding warrants, your insurance is valid, you have no DUI's, etc., etc.
Lots of Constitutional and Bill of Rights implications to the deployment of one. But, you want the only solution to the 'immigration problem' that will work you have to head down that road - everything else is a joke and all the supply-side solutions in particular create massive government bureaucracies to implement.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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Makes sense, healyje. I was unaware that this technology was sufficiently perfected.
There certainly seem to be privacy issues which, as you point out, crosses more typical ideolgical boundaries. Without some truly secure national identity system, I agree that attempts to enforce border security and immigrant employment laws without this technology won't (or should I say don't) work.
By the way, the reason I got on you about already trying this with employers is that virtually every employer now insists on seeing and copying a worker's social security card. Even then, that does not insulate an employer from potential prosecution for hiring undocumented workers, hence my concern about potential racial and ethnic discrimination. Now, if that social security card were something more secure, the enforcement at the employer level would be little different from what it is now, but might actually work.
Thanks for having the patience to straighten me out.
John
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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John,
healyje is right about the card in that the technology is there. I work for the gov. and have such an ID card. The card stores all kinds of data on it and is also tied to my index fingerprint for certain secure ID access. It also contains info about my security clearance and probably stuff I dont know about. Thats the part that gives people the creeps...
Yeah, funny thinking an ID boy doesnt know about rad waste. I work at Hanford Nuclear Reservation. Sorry Rox, we have the distinction of having a much bigger problem than yours. But we are working on a solution...
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Hooked another one!
Now, let's talk about the effects of wolves on the U.S. economy, particularly in Idaho.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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Just dont eat them after shooting them, they are full of rad waste. that glow in the dark feature helps with night hunting though...
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Golsen:
The last I remember from a few years ago is that the effort to dig under the tanks at Hanford and surround them with concrete had been stopped. I don't remember whether it was associated with engineering risk, of which there would have to be plenty, or whether it was due to absorbed dose limits for the personnel.
If I remember correctly the groundwater plume had been detected and was being tracked.
Can you give us any idea as to the present activity?
Oh, I checked Wikipedia on Yucca Mtn. Its depth is not several miles and it is not below the aquifer. It is substantially higher than 1000', the present top of the water table. The present top is also lower than the highest point the aquifer has reached in history. It is reported surface water reaches the waste, the waste being located in tufa, through fractures and is expected to reach the waste in a fifty year time period. (I believe tufa is a finely grained silicatious materiall, not salt, formed out of gases emitted by the super volcano located near the site.) Fractures being as chaotic as they are you would have to read the analysis to give you confidence.
The last court review forced the monitoring of water contamination to be done for 1,000,000 years and not the 10,000 years proposed by DOE. Also Yucca Mtn. was proposed as the primary repository for reactor waste and the proposed design volume was recently doubled.
All of this if you can believe Wikipedia.
Oh I apparently was in error. I don't whether Excelon actually has to pay for storage but presently the Gov't is giving them money for their failure to have the facility up on schedule. According to Wiki the taxpayer will have to fund only 27% of the cost of storage. I don't know whether the nine billion dollar cost of construction will be charged off this way or if will fall on the taxpayer. Small accounting details tend to get lost.
The debate on casks has been going on a long time. Hotter than hell I understand. The articles I have read over the last decades seemed to focus on temperature effects and radiation embrittlement. Over 100,000 years - who knows?
Seems to me we should hook thermocouples up to them and generate power thermoelectrically.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 11, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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jstan,
at Hanford there is approximately 53 Million gallons in 177 tanks of a nice mixture of various phases and nearly every element on the periodic table. The current plan is to build a vitrification plant that turns the waste to glass (the plant is about 50% completed). The first part of the process is to retrieve it from the tanks, then pipe it to the pretreatment (PT) facility (the largest, most complex and costly radiochemical processing plant in the world). PT separates the waste into high and low activity fractions. The bulk of the waste is Low activity, it is the Cesium and Strontium primarily that is very hot. Those fractions are then to be treated in the Low Activity Waste facility and the High Level Waste facility where the waste is turned to glass.
The low activity waste cannisters will be stored on the Hanford Site, and in theory, the High level waste will be shipped to Yucca (otherwise the people around here will be pissed, remember NIMBY).
There are some tanks that are known leakers. This is monitored very carefully however, there is a small contribution to the Columbia River. It should be noted that the Col. River already has some radioactivity primarily due to preavious atmospheric Nuke tests (at least thats what I have read). the contribution to the Col River from Hanford is about the same as the amount already in the river before it arrives here. The levels are very low and you probably get way more rad from regular dental checks (I am not a rad expert though).
While this project is extremely costly and probably one of the most complex plants in the world, I believe it is the right thing to do, as it was the manufacture of plutonium for nukes that created this probalem from 1944 - about early 90's. The Gov owes it to the people to clean it up (even know it is our pockets paying for it).
Rox, those cannisters are drop tested and very tough. Some of the cannisters we used to ship nerve gas in were drop tested from 40 feet onto a 4" spike and I think that these are similar.
Now I have really gone OT.
BTW, my father wanted to use all of that waste heat too, jstan...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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alright, this thread is not titled, "Nuclear Waste Management".
Start your own thread!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:57am PT
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Now that is a remarkable post. Well written and heartfelt. Very fine.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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seconded
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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And here some of you callously call them criminals and tediously stick by your 'rule of law'
Maybe we should just open the borders wide open, hell there are a lot of Africans dealt a 'bad hand' that should be allowed to come here too. After all, they're just people too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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I just love how the "racist" card always gets played in the immigration debate.
So if I support ANYBODY immigrating to this country lawfully (which I do), I'm not a racist? But if I disapprove of illegal immigration, suddenly I'm a racist.
pretty weak.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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If somebody wants to immigrate here and the meet all the requirements put forth to them, I welcome them.
You know, we do have requirements in place for a reason, right?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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I kind of agree Fatty.
Of course, McCain later caved in to the Michael Savage wing of the party and disowned his previous policy.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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Illegal?
It's funny how gringos can't remember too much of their own history - like the illegal U.S Invasion of Mexico ( known by gringos as the Mexican American War).
" I do not think there was ever a more wicked war than that waged by the United States on Mexico. I had a horror of the Mexican War, and I have always believed that it was on our part most unjust. The wickedness was not in the way our soldiers conducted it, but in the conduct of our government in declaring war. We had no claim on Mexico. Texas had no claim beyond the Nueces River, and yet we pushed on to the Rio Grande and crossed it. I am always ashamed of my country when I think of that invasion."
 Ulysses S. Grant
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Savage is a skinhead with hair. Period.
Read/listen to what he says about gays, Mexicans, blacks, Muslims, etc and compare it to what openly right wing racist groups say. Savage may dress up his words a bit more PC but there really isn't much difference. It's all hate talk.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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No mas muertos.
Humanitarian aid is never a crime.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Will break my no politics pledge here.
For the millionth time, for those who's common sense utterly fail them - there is no 'illegal immigration' problem; there is only an illegal employers problem. Want to end 'illegal immigration' overnight? YES - OVERNIGHT.
The solution is simple and was available and at hand every day of the past eight years: divert the majority of INS enforcement resources to coordinating with state and local governments to police employers. Conduct raids and do nothing to the immigrants found - just fine the employers $10k per 'illegal' each and every time you find one. Keep it up at a brisk pace for three years and there will be no 'illegal immigration' problem in the U.S. - none.
Do that without a program for guest workers and an attainable pathway to citizenship and you will have chaos and disaster. But, the solution to the problem is simple, affordable, and already in place.
This is another Rovian [social] issue playing to the most base racial instincts and bigotry for political gain on one hand while entirely protecting the corporate culprits responsible for the problem on the other. Anyone buying into the issue who doesn't come to that conclusion is a) a rightwing politician b) employer or their lobbyist or c) is being completely played for a fool.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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There isn't an illegal immigration or employer problem there is a reality problem. There is a huge gap between the way the world actually works and the way you all wish that it would. No concrete stance in either direction is tenable. You need to start by accepting that a certain amount of illegal immigration and illegal employing will happen and let that be ok. From there you can build a sane system that actually works. Real life is messy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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HDDJ, I'm mostly in agreement with that.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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Humanity ebbs and flows in and about the continents, no matter what Rush wants. I'd do the same thing if I was poor and had a family to feed.
And before we get too dewey eyed about the land we took from Mexico, please remember that Mexico only had that land because Spain took it away from the natives. How many folks in California spoke Spanish before the Spanish subjugated them, burned them at stakes and put them in mines? Mexico lost its land because it had difficulty colonizing and controlling its northern provinces.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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HDDJ, the 'reality' is that immigrants are infinite, temporary, and mobile - it is utterly futile pursuing them. Anyone interested in seeing the problem brought under control will speak out for resources being focused on the demand side and employers who are finite in number, largely permanent, and have known, fixed locations.
It isn't rocket science, it's common sense applied to resource allocation and management.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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"HDDJ, the 'reality' is that immigrants are infinite, temporary, and mobile - it is utterly futile pursuing them. Anyone interested in seeing the problem brought under control will speak out for resources being focused on the demand side and employers who are finite in number, largely permanent, and have known, fixed locations.
It isn't rocket science, it's common sense applied to resource allocation and management. "
I agree, however the reality of a universal crackdown on employers is that strict rules on employers WILL inadvertently create employment burdens. It's just the way things work. Solely focusing on employers ignores the root of the problem, which is a terrible economy in many parts of Mexico and Latin America. There is no one solution and there is no "overnight" solution.
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jahil
Social climber
Does this rock make my ass look fat?
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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Hi
I'm an immigrant to this country, and I had the misfortune to be an illegal for several months due to a SNAFU at the American consulate. I got my papers sorted out, and for those for whom it matters I've been a citizen for 10 years and no, I have never been on welfare or any other kind of hand out. So heres the view from across the pond from an ex illegal, my family were Asian immigrants to Britain, where I was born.
I've heard the same debate in both this country and the UK from people over the years who claim not to be racist but just want to have a debate about jobs for those who are legal, local and were here first.
I have never met those people on this forum who are doing this, I know that if you are climbers we share a common bond, and hey it would be pretty cool to climb with some of you
But when you start this debate you pouring fuel on the fire for those who are maybe not so rational.
I had the crap kicked out of me on more than one occasion by skinheads in England yelling the same sort of stuff that has been posted on this forum. Taken out of context by someone who's idea of a debate is wielding a baseball bat and your debate is a lot less pleasant.
I can't (and wouldn't) stop you from having this debate, but just be aware that some of us have some deep wounds from the times that we have dealt with this before. You really have no idea what you are doing.
steve
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 21, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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DMT- Wait so now I'm not only a racist but I'm a Republican as well?
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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Healy nails this. You have to have the ducks lined up and that involves a working ID card to start with. Social sec cards are easy to make and flash to an employer. The other alternative is a gov't database of matching up who goes with the SS number. This may be more palatable to folks fearful of a "Player Piano" style government. In either case, Social security cards are easy to forge and Illegals can then also easily get a state drivers license, often using a false name.
Somehow I find it interesting that the terrorist guys don't just walk into this country and do this if it's really that easy.
-I digress-
Part of the ducks lined up is making sure that legal aliens such as guest workers (and employers in need can get these folks) can get in expeditiously and get where they need to be in a rapid and easy manner: something which isn't happening currently.
Jabril: I saw that happen in London. Short version was 5 or 6 young punk as#@&%es took down a black guy from behind and were beating the hell out of him. I attacked and they ran. It still surprised me that it occurred, and think that we all must step up and call bullshit when we see stuff like this.
On a side note, I was riding my bike on the boardwalk in SC today. Guy in front of me was a latino dude. Van full of skinheads drives by and yells "white power!" at us (I've got a beard and I'm pretty tan). For such a liberal town, there are a lot of nazis here, no joke...
Same thing happened to my son not long after he'd gone off to college last year. He turned to look and the person who had yelled it (from behind him) didn't step forward. Obviously a pussy that knew he needed his ass kicked.
_
Jstan -on the money as well re: nuclear power/total costs. However, have not the French, via standardization and better resource utilization, effectively decreased the total cost for nuclear power? I think that it's very similar to what Bluering postulated on the first post: ie, what is the total cost of illegal immigration? You've got schooling, you've got health care, you've got the cost of hiring how many untold border guards (more) plus all that accompaniment expense, you've got uninsured accidents, murders etc etc etc. Lots of things. I hardly think asking the question makes a person a racist, even if he calls them criminals. Which is what they are. They walked over the backs of law abiding folks who are sitting down in Mexico having done the correct paperwork, but can't get in cause of these folks.
And that's not right. In the scheme of how much criminality is in it, very little. It's not murder or not like beating a lady over the head and stealing her purse. But it is massive, it is widespread, and it is costly: and it should be dealt with so that employers who need workers can get them and legal workers can get jobs like Elcapinyoass says: it's needed.
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jahil
Social climber
Does this rock make my ass look fat?
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Apr 21, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Couchmaster
Good on yer mate. If you've ever climbed at PE then you've seen me with my groms.
steve
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 21, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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"Colombian women are some of the most beautiful women in the world"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 21, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Cheney should be hung for treason, but that isn't going to happen either.
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