Wings of Steel
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Gunkie

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - May 17, 2005 - 01:43pm PT
Has Wings of Steel ever seen a repeat?

The only reason I'm asking is because I was looking at the recent valley flooding images on the internet and ran into Chris Falkenstein's web site (www.yosemitestock.com) and saw a pretty interesting shot of a team low on Wings of Steel. Are not the lower pitches of Wings of Steel the crux pitches anyway?

Just curious.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
May 17, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
I heard the team drilled their way up the think then chopped the bolts while cleaning.

kinda lame style IMHO...
Weenis

Trad climber
Shastafaria
May 17, 2005 - 06:15pm PT
You guys think Chongo was bad...
The Wings of Foil crew spent an interminable amount of time up there. There was a streak of feces and trash 200 meters long below their hangin' bivy camp. I wasn't able to see a line there, most others at the time were in agreement. One of the guy's Mom (Mother of Steel) was allegedly dating Warren Harding during this period. So history repeated itself, somewhat: The route gets chopped, fixed ropes dropped and other unspeakable things happen. Funny how scores of climbers were trying to take credit for the dirty deed. So they finish their route and go on to do some other routes on the right side, cool. Good Mormon kids with a lot of ambition, however terribly misguided (initially).
Ammon

Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
May 17, 2005 - 07:29pm PT

"Good Mormon kids with a lot of ambition, however terribly misguided (initially)."

I heard they were Jehovah's Witnesses... same difference, right?

I also heard the route was a rivet ladder and put up in very poor style.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2005 - 08:20pm PT
Yea Ammon, it was a terrible mess for sure.
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
May 17, 2005 - 08:28pm PT
Wow show's what you guys know. I don't particularly agree with or endorse their style so to speak. I know about these men though. Richard Jensen and Mark Smith. I've worked 2 summers under the same employment they were orignally there for.

Basically they picked a line worse than the start of WFLT or any of Harding's other exploits and drilled as was needed to link the features. Technically the stuff is A4-A5 because of the length of the falls if you did fall. Instead of rivet ladders, they put in bat hook holes. There would be 10 holes in a row then a bolt for example through the drilled parts.

They were Seventh-Day Adventists. They were there as guides working for the Camp Wawona climbing school in southern Yosemite. The Wawona climbing school has been there in operation since 1931. They put up a ton of unknown hard face climbing routes on Wawona dome there during the early 90s as well. There is a book out detailing their 39 day El Cap ascent. Teenagers and what not in the adventist church read it and recognize these guys as heroes. I just keep my mouth shut and grin when people ask me about them. Their choice of style seems painful at best. Rumor has it they brought 7 haulbags with them choo choo train style.

You better watch out though. Mark Smith lurks these forums sometimes. If we are lucky...He has posted here before; explaining the virtues of bat hook ethics...

If you want to really be cool though, go do one of their routes. They have like 3 El Cap routes, no one has bothered to do a second time. I mean yah guys with 50 plus ascents could screw around on one sometime, I'm sure those guys would get a kick out of it that someone finally did.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2005 - 08:46pm PT
Well HalHammer

If you would’ve been here during the time when they were starting their project and saw all the bickering and folks flipping out you would’ve said it was a mess too.

I personally during that time didn’t care one way or the other. It was their thing, not mine.

I don’t own any rock so they can do whatever they want.
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
May 17, 2005 - 09:25pm PT
These guys did Ring of Fire too, I think the Nightmare crew filled the holes when they hit those pitches.
akclimber

Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
May 17, 2005 - 10:09pm PT
"I don’t own any rock so they can do whatever they want."

Truer, wiser, words were never spoken!
Spinmaster K-Rove

Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
May 17, 2005 - 10:24pm PT
Um...yeah....and I don't own any land either so i can guess I can do whatever I want :P Look for me setting fires near your house soon...

I got nothing against bat hooks but as I understand it these guys drilled a SH#T ton of holes to force an otherwise absurd line. Drilling 150' of bat hooks up a blank face has all the aesthetic of stock car racing with no tires. Its dangerous and makes lots of pretty sparks but it is contrived beyond the point of reason. Spending 37 days on a wall is commendable were it worth repeating and were it that you actually didn't go out of your way to make it unrepeatable without drilling more holes!!!

If they only still sold tar in reasonable amounts enough to dunk people in it and feather them....
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2005 - 10:36pm PT
Well Spinmaster

Everyone can do what they want. That’s the independent free will that every living entity has.

No one can take that away.

But; ..... they are accountable for their actions according to the standard of truth.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
May 17, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
Wasn't one of those guys a dude that later wrote various SFBay Area climbing guides?
-which act shoulders the larger accountability burden? :-)
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
-which act shoulders the larger accountability burden?

Ask the judge.
macgyver

Social climber
Oregon, but now in Europe
May 18, 2005 - 06:18am PT
Shocking shocking shocking.

So any second ascents of their routes?

Whats the name of the book?

EDIT: QUO VADIS SOUNDS WAY PROUDER THAN THE PUNKS ABOVE.
Anyone know anything about Que Vadis? Supposedly similar style of ascent.

Maybe we should start a topic of the most obscure routes on El Cap. how about Heavy Metal and Tinker Toys?
Gunkie

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2005 - 07:49am PT

Wings of Steel
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 18, 2005 - 08:48am PT
"Technically the stuff is A4-A5 because of the length of the falls if you did fall. Instead of rivet ladders, they put in bat hook holes. There would be 10 holes in a row then a bolt for example through the drilled parts."

Sounds like the first pitch or two of Highway to Hell, which follows drilled bat hook holes up to rappel anchors below Native Son.

A4-A5? Give me a bunch of talon hooks, a roll of duct tape, and a bunch of screamers, and I'll show you A0. Actually, I'd solo it and prusik down the hooks instead. Bat hook holes are bogus. If you drill, you might as well fill it with a rivet.

I'm sitting here looking at the Quo Vadis topo. It was put up solo by Jacek Czyz of Poland who rates it A4/A4+. "I spend 30 days on the wall, 26 climbing" The route starts on Little John, crosses MW and MM, then across the Half Dollar and on up.

"33 new belay bolts + 20 exist
14 lead bolts 3/8" + 6 exist
51 rivets (most ss 5/16" + 6 Al) 24 exist
I drill 48 hole, no bathooks"

Sounds pretty proud to me! Lots of A3, a few A3x, a couple A4 bits.

Hmmmmmmmmm.......... thinking.......
deuce4

Big Wall climber
Pagosa Springs CO
May 18, 2005 - 10:00am PT
I agree with Pete. I remember back in 1980 while visiting Austraila and hearing about a testpiece on Buffalo that was rated M8, the highest aid rating (Mechanical). Then I found out it was 20 bathooks across a blank face. Bogus. Plus, when you drill your own bathooks they feel much more bomber than following someone else's (they do chip out with time, especially if you use leepers which you can tap in for more security).

Holes are holes and might as well be filled with a rivet on the FA. Making it artificially harder is a sign of ego getting in the way.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 18, 2005 - 10:15am PT
Amen to Johnny.

You can tap the BD Talon hooks in, too. The trick is to give them only one gentle tap as anything more will cause them to lose their "bite" by crumbling the rock around the hole. I have never drilled a bathook hole, but it makes sense that the first person drilling them would get the sharpest edge with the best bite.

Note: If you are a "hammerless" weenie, then you will have to tap your bathook in place with your helmet or something. Claiming a hammerless ascent of an aid route makes as much sense as drilling bathook holes. "Oh yeah, we climbed it hammerless, we just used 136 points of aid on existing hammered pro, like fixed pins and heads, that fortuitously happened to be in situ so we didn't have to use a cheat stick to bypass missing stuff. Oh yeah, and it was C4. Ain't we bitchin'?" Incidentally, where are the tall claims of clean/hammerless ascents of Zodiac these days?

I was in the Mountain Equipment Co-op last year [betcha wish you Merricans had one of them south of the border, eh? 'Specially with your Mighty Yanqui Dollah, which has become mightier up here the last few weeks] when I came upon this little hook with a split tip - obviously just the ticket for tapping into bathook holes, right? The springiness of the steel would give it some expanding grip.

Once I tried it on the rock, however, it didn't work at all! But in the store, it really looked good, at least in theory.....

It's one thing to buy fishing lures because they look nice in the store, but climbing gear?! Sheesh.
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
May 18, 2005 - 10:15am PT
"...Plus, when you drill your own bathooks they feel much more bomber than following someone else's..."

Agreed. I think a somewhat similar argument can be made about low quality bolts & rivets. The FA team can feel reasonably good about the 1/4" bolts they place, since said bolts are brand new. Years later those little anchors become timebombs and running it out 20' from them is a different story.

I realize the FA team is taking on the extra challenge of exploring new terrain, but IMO they accept the responsibility to put in decent hardware. If not, they have no right to complain if the hardware is replaced years later with higher quality items. I am not advocating adding anchors, just upgrading existing placement, preferably using the same hole.
macgyver

Social climber
Oregon, but now in Europe
May 18, 2005 - 10:21am PT
Quo Vadis.... I stand corrected. It sounds pretty solid. And done by a Polish guy (I am a Polish dude as well) so i am glad he isnt letting down the red and white.

PTPP
Could you scan me a topo? Would love to take a look. How many independent pitches does it seem to have?

Rock on
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City
May 18, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
Hammerless aid climbing is sometimes really proud and not contrived, especially in the desert. P1 of the Sundevil Chimney on the Titan relies on a couple of bolts for fixed gear, but otherwise a clean ascent needs only a bunch of creativity and is quite frightening - no fixed pins or anything like that required. The clean aid, free climbing, and rap anchor shenanigans being done to climb new towers in Canyonlands with no fixed gear whatsoever is very impressive as well.

Sorry for the offtopic reply - I am just getting really tired of this particular rant of Pete's that is only applicable to some roadside granite aid climbing areas. Seems like folks should get out and climb at a few more places before lecturing about universal ethics.
WBraun

climber
May 18, 2005 - 12:35pm PT
So andy in the moab

My humble question; how do you rappel on the new towers without leaving any fixed gear?
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
May 18, 2005 - 12:37pm PT
I've only done small sh#t in the fishers, but I can see how it would get f*#ked if people went crazy hammering. I bet my bathook hole will disapear in a few years!
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City
May 18, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
aside from the obvious sketchy simulraps, here is an interesting and bold lumber method from Crusher(copied from Desert Rock IV by Bjornstad). There is a classic photo in the guidebook as well.

"To descend the tower legally we had to leave no fixed anchor for the 250' rappel. Therefore we used a 4-foot, 6-inch 4x4 piece of lumber straddling the chimney top as a belay and rappel anchor. We duct-taped a second piece of lumber (a 3-foot long 2x4) under one end, crucifix style. One end of the 2x4 protruded over the edge and was attached to enough rope to reach the ground. Rappel off the middle of the 4x4 down the chimney and then down the north face using enough rope to reach the ground(this will likely require passing a knot). Then pull on the rope attached to the protruding end of the 2x4, and voila! Down comes the anchor."
WBraun

climber
May 18, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
That's very cool, Andy, thanks so much for the information.
macgyver

Social climber
Oregon, but now in Europe
May 18, 2005 - 02:58pm PT
DESERT TOWERS: Rapping with no fixed gear
There is a great photo in an issue of the ALPINIST (maybe 3 or 4) that shoes the crucifix wood splint. Pretty tight.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
May 18, 2005 - 03:16pm PT
I don't know anything about their routes, but Jensen & Co. certainly are members of some kind of odd religious cult. I've seen them in public cracking jokes about people who are "politically correct" while bragging about their self-sufficiency, buying houses in suburbia, etc. etc. They certainly don't seem like they are a heck of a lot of fun.
Gunkie

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2005 - 04:41pm PT
I have the book 'Wings of Steel'. It's a kind of neat log of their ascent, but unfortunately it's full of sections that are basically religious sermons. And yes, these two fellows seem a lttle odd in their religious fervor. Though, I'm less surprised today than I was five or six years ago.

Apparently Rob Slater got up about 6 or 7 pitches in the late 80's before succumbing to the heat.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 19, 2005 - 03:58am PT
Pass your daughter over here Pete wrote:
Note: If you are a "hammerless" weenie, then you will have to tap your bathook in place with your helmet or something. Claiming a hammerless ascent of an aid route makes as much sense as drilling bathook holes. "Oh yeah, we climbed it hammerless, we just used 136 points of aid on existing hammered pro, like fixed pins and heads, that fortuitously happened to be in situ so we didn't have to use a cheat stick to bypass missing stuff. Oh yeah, and it was C4. Ain't we bitchin'?" Incidentally, where are the tall claims of clean/hammerless ascents of Zodiac these days?

I’ll support that, however I rarely use a hammer on any kind of hook… “Clean” is a political term… and political terms usually last two to four years… so in two to four years, we’ll have to go back up there again…


The Socialist who lost the last election wrote:
I realize the FA team is taking on the extra challenge of exploring new terrain, but IMO they accept the responsibility to put in decent hardware. If not, they have no right to complain if the hardware is replaced years later with higher quality items. I am not advocating adding anchors, just upgrading existing placement, preferably using the same hole.

What is “higher quality”? Will “higher quality items” affect the nature/difficulty/character/safety of the route (from that of the FA) when they are installed? Socialized medicine sucks and so does socialized climbing.


There was a pretty cool rant posted to a rivet thread either here or on RC.com a while ago by Mark or Richard on the ethics of jigus rivets. I just looked for it but couldn’t find it… maybe he deleted it or I looked in the wrong place…

I too believe that bat-hook holes on blank rock are pretty much bogus. If it’s blank enough that you have to drill a hole, then you might as well place a rivet. Enhanced hook placements are another story, provided there is something to work with in the first place – totally blank rock deserves a rivet, not an empty hole. Bat-hooking on blank, overhanging rock really sucks…

If you can stand up higher on a rivet than you can on a bat-hook, then why not place a rivet? And besides, you've got to be dealing with at least some sort of natural feature to call it climbing, right?
Ammon

Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
May 19, 2005 - 06:42am PT
"Wow show's what you guys know"

Actually, it shows what the person I HEARD it from…… knows. This was information I got while sitting in the Meadow….. you know how that goes.

I’m with Deuce, contrived A5 bat hooks are a JOKE. If you drill em, fill em!!!

Nice post, Minerals
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
May 19, 2005 - 08:30am PT
What is “higher quality”? Will “higher quality items” affect the nature/difficulty/character/safety of the route (from that of the FA) when they are installed? Socialized medicine sucks and so does socialized climbing.

Good points for sure, Minerals. It is seared, SEARED into my memory when I clipped my last StarDryvin bolt with its rusted & visibly pitted Leeper hanger. At least I had my lucky hat on!

I don't mean putting 1/2" SS bolts in place of rivits. I mean putting quality bolts in bolt placements. We have some problems out East here where some FA guys like to place those funky little Petzl self-drills with the aluminum hangers, which I believe are caving anchors. They do so because they don't want the extra work (& expense?) of installing more appropriate anchors.

The socialism comparison really doesn't apply. If the FA teams's actions never affected anyone else, then no one could complain about those actions. Live & let live, do your own thing, etcetera. But since the FA team's actions do affect others' lives (literally), some degree of responsibility comes into play, IMO. At the very least, if some reasonable degree of responsibility is not accepted (and I know that's slippery to define) then the FA team doesn't have much grounds for whining.

If you want to fall back on the "it's not a community service, I do what I want" position, that's OK too. Just don't complain when others come through and do what THEY want. Unfettered freedom works both ways.

I must say, however, that is ironic to see worrisome handwringing about the ethical evils of high quality hardware... on a site operated by the chairman of the ASCA.
Dru

climber
HELL, BABY, HELL!
May 19, 2005 - 05:46pm PT
I read in High Mountain Sports magazine that Thomas Tivadar would chisel copperhead placements on blank slabs instead of bathooking or rivetting, so that he could claim a low hole count.
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
May 19, 2005 - 09:01pm PT
Why doesn't Klaus tell us what he thinks of Thomas T.!
WBraun

climber
May 19, 2005 - 09:09pm PT
I read in High Mountain Sports magazine that Thomas Tivadar would chisel copperhead placements on blank slabs instead of bathooking or rivetting, so that he could claim a low hole count.

I'll tell you what I think. Big fu-cking deal, don't worrry about what some other guy did, do it the right way yourself if it bothers you.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2005 - 01:33pm PT
I don't mean putting 1/2" SS bolts in place of rivits. I mean putting quality bolts in bolt placements. We have some problems out East here where some FA guys like to place those funky little Petzl self-drills with the aluminum hangers, which I believe are caving anchors. They do so because they don't want the extra work (& expense?) of installing more appropriate anchors.

Ok, I think we’re on the same page. Those Petzl caving bolts are crap (one of my favorite to chop…) and it sucks when people place them at belays on walls. Lame. There is a pretty big difference between being cheap and lazy and having your own style/statement/etc. by using certain hardware. I could probably make the “socialism comparison” work if I responded to your last sentence in your post…


Klaus doesn’t chisel head placements into blank rock – that would be way too much work for him… although I hear that Bridwell chiseled heads into blank rock on Shadows because he ran out of drill bits???
bigwalling

climber
May 20, 2005 - 02:08pm PT
To Pete I'll happily loan you my bat hooks if you want to try that pitch.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
May 20, 2005 - 06:52pm PT
how about those nice guys who drill bat hook holes and slam a crap head into it...gotta love that style.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 25, 2005 - 02:07am PT
Hmmm... amazing amount of misinformation... which I guess shouldn't be surprising to me, given that it's been well over twenty years since we put Wings up... and... there was tons of misinformation going around then too. It seems that little has changed in the intervening time, as people who have no first-hand knowledge still feel compelled to "weigh in," and those who should know better than to believe such opinions still do anyway.

Ok, first of all, the bolting-ethics discussions are fine and good, and I might consider offering my own opinions at some point, but the purpose of this post is simply to clarify some facts about Wings of Steel. Of course, anyone is free to call me a liar, but that sort of short-circuits any further discussion, although I guess THAT'S unlikely to happen anyway. Hopefully, though, it will be granted that I'm not lying in what follows, and, of course, the route is still there waiting for someone to prove me a liar (although the first few pitches HAVE been pretty chewed up over the years).

*
To Lambone: No, we did not chop the route behind us as we climbed it. Whoever started this rumor has no reason to think it true, and you have no reason on the basis of this rumor alone to further the notion that the route was done in "bad style."

*
To Wenis: First, we weren't/aren't Mormons. We are Seventh-day Adventists, and we did keep the Sabbath while on the route. So, in reference to your "interminable amount of time" comment, keep in mind that we did lose almost a week of time just to Sabbaths. Oh, and we lost almost a week to storms (kind of hard to do top-looped hooking on slick, wet rock). Oh, and 1982 was a record-setting runoff year, so our line didn't dry up until 11am most mornings--and the main waterstreak we followed did have the most features, which is why we were there. Oh, and we did have a 30% hook-failure rate, so we were taking literally hundreds of feet in falls. ("Hook failure"??? Whaaaatttt??? It was all bat hooks! Right?)

So, yes we were up there a long time, but under the conditions we had, it is unclear that the time we took was inordinate... in fact, Rob Slater told me that after fixing they were making about a pitch a day up to the fifth anchor where they stopped, and they didn't have to drill any rivets from top-looped micro-hooks. Oh, and I have a letter from Rob (which, by the way, he tried to get published in Climbing magazine, and they refused to print it because it was not the "party line" about the route at that time)--in that letter he states: "The route has the most technical hooking I have ever seen... way worse than anything on the Sea or other "hard" Valley routes I've done." But, of course, even Slater can't buck the "party line" when everybody "knows" the route was just a bolt ladder or rivet ladder or bat hook ladder (or wooden ladder, or, damn it... SOME kind of ladder).

Regarding the two-hundred yard long line of "feces and trash," this burst of flatulence alone shows your ignorance. We used paper sacks for solids (which was the style of the times, and is still used, illegally, by many even now), and threw the bags to the ground. Trash went to the ground also. And, to avoid the urine smell at our bivies, our urine went into used water bottles, which also went to the ground. Now, you might complain about what the BASE of our route looked like (and some have), and that would at least be based on a FACT. But, unlike most climbers, we DID go back to the base after the ascent and cleaned EVERYTHING from west of Aquarian Wall down to well past Dihedral wall. That included cigs (we don't smoke), beer cans (we don't drink), plastic bags full of human waste (we used paper), and so on. When we were finished with our ascent, El Cap was cleaner than when we started.

Wow, LOTS of misinformation in your post... on to my mom. My mom did date Warren Harding for many years, but this started about three years after our ascent of Wings of Steel. So, the nature of your "history repeated itself" statement is obscure and quite strange. Indeed, the smug tone of your entire post, as though you know something about the route, is quite baffling. It a well-known adage that that "knowledge is power," and it seems that acting knowledgable makes people FEEL powerful. Perhaps that feeling is what you are after in this forum. At any rate, the ONLY thing you got right was that our route was chopped while we were fixing the first two pitches, although at the time only a few people claimed credit, and we know first hand who was involved in the chopping.

Point of info, Bill Russell was one of the chopping party members, and he later attempted the second ascent of the route so he could "chop it legitimately" (you know, actually CLIMB the route first). His partner, a guy named also Richard, as I recall, in that aborted attempt later told us that he had completely changed his mind about the route after that experience. Bill was unable to climb even the first pitch, ended up lowering off of a bolt, and was then so furious that he was determined to climb Horse Chute, rap the slab, and chop the route that way (all thoughts of "legitimacy" out the window at this point).

So, Wenis, please try to get your facts straight before you pontificate and draw conclusions, including moral judgments. ("Terribly misguided"??? Oh, help me.). It's easy to blast someone quickly and in a few sentences--it's much harder and time-consuming to set the record straight after being the brunt of such defamation.

*
To Ammon: As I hope I've clarified by now, the route was not a rivet ladder. Although, I must say, I am unclear what "put up in poor style" adds to such a claim. I mean, IF we had put up a rivet ladder, doesn't "put up in poor style" add nothing to that fact? Or, do we feel the need to constantly clarify that a rivet ladder JUST IS poor style? Is it possible to put a rivet ladder up the side of El Cap in GOOD style? I don't know--please clarify what "style" has to do with rivet ladders. But, anyway, the route is not a rivet ladder.

*
To Wbraun: You haven't done the route, and you don't know anybody who has. What justifies your "terrible mess" claim? Rob Slater is the only person I have heard of who has gotten as far as the fifth pitch anchor. He was a credible person and climber before his untimely death, and he certainly didn't think the route was a "terrible mess". So, I guess you are free to THINK whatever you want, but you do have a moral responsibility to SPEAK according to the facts. I've seen precious few actual FACTS on this topic.

*
To Halhammer: I appreciate the tone of your post, certainly. But please allow me to clarify. We did NOT use bat hooks on the route. At all. Period. We were using Leeper Narrow hooks on tiny edges (like quarters in thickness). We DID (rarely) use the tip of a drill to LEVEL an edge slightly so the hook wouldn't skip down sideways. (Although we found this practice VERY risky, since the "leveling" process tended to weaken the flakes; "leveled" flakes failed more often than natural ones.) But MOST of our 145 hook placements on the slab were completely natural.

After we did the fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams (in "good" style, by the way, under intense scrutiny), we realized that we could have made Wings of Steel MUCH easier on ourselves, while rating it MUCH harder, by DEEPLY "modifying" our hook placements (as was done on all the "hard" hooking sections on the Sea). In response to my article in Rock and Ice, "How Many Holes?" some have stated that the "modified" hooks we found on the Sea were drilled out after the first ascent party. Well, I don't believe it, for these reasons: First, ALL three of the teams prior to us and after the first ascent were VERY respected climbers, and I'm not going to be the one to claim that they ADDED holes to the route. WE certainly didn't, and MANY people know that is true, because we were being scrutinized by telescopes EVERY day we were on that route BY people who were LOOKING for us to screw up, and Eric Brand and John Barbella were putting up the first ascent of Heartland right beside us most of the time we were on the Sea. They were watching closely, and high on the route they told us that they had changed their minds about us, as they had seen that our style was impeccable. (We even ended up lowering them a couple of gallons of water when our routes crossed, because they were running low.) Nobody has been more closely scrutinized than we were on the Sea, because EVERYBODY thought we were going to "drill it down to [our] level".

And, finally, MOST of those holes were drilled into sloping ripples and irregularities that could not have held ANY sort of gear unless they had holes drilled into them at the perfect position to hold a pointed Black Diamond hook--so the first ascent team could NOT have used these slight and wildly sloped irregularities in the rock without the holes. The Sea was put up USING hundreds of holes, and we even found long, thin, vertical flakes that were chipped into horizontal ledges at regular intervals to hold sling loops. Again, these features were useless without the "modifications," and we didn't even count such obvious "chipping" in our hole count as we did the route.

The point is that the Sea was an awesome route, and the fixation to count "holes" completely obviates that fact. The boldness and value of a route CANNOT be determined solely BY the number of holes and modifications that make it "go". There is some indefinable ratio of "natural" to "modified" placements after which a route becomes "contrived" or even "bad style". Who am I to say where that line is drawn? Like many fuzzy ideas, we know that the edge borders are well-defined, but there is LOTS of ground in the middle, and the climbing community would do well to take a large dose of charity with every meal.

So, the long and short of the matter is that we learned on the Sea what sort of "hooking" is acceptable practice, but we were too ignorant on Wings to realize that we could have made it much easier on ourselves. Instead, our hooking was almost entirely natural, and we did peel about 30% of our hook placements. We would often spend two or three hours painstakingly working out a sequence of hook flakes, only to have the fourth or fifth one peel on us, dropping the leader anywhere from twenty-five to forty feet, losing us those hours. Yes, there were bolts and rivets whenever we couldn't find hook flakes, but there are LONG sections of just hooks, and these hooks were NOT bat hooks.

Our ratios were better than the Sea of Dreams, but I repeat, counting up "modifications" is NOT the way to decide the value of a route.

So, I'm not sure how our choice of style is "painful". We did take seven haul bags. We hauled over 1200 pounds off the deck, planning to be on the wall about twenty-five days. Would seiging the route have been better style? I don't think so. Instead, we opted to commit to the wall after fixing merely two pitches, and we committed to starving for two weeks to make it in one push, even though we quickly realized that the route would take MUCH longer than we had planned. Should we have not done that slab because it was too "contrived" to do in "good style" (whatever THAT is)? Well, we were the THIRD team to try that slab--Tony Yaniro told me that he and a partner had tried the slab before us, and he had decided against it because it became clear to him that he would either have to seige the slab or "spend a month trying to climb it in good style." So, we DID spend a month climbing the slab in "good style," and then we're blasted BECAUSE we spent a month on it instead of seiging it! Hmmm... damned if you do....

So, there are multiple issues at play here, and they all seem to get conflated. Everybody seems to be agreed that we "botched" the route somehow: We put up a bolt ladder (we didn't); we put up a rivet ladder (we didn't); we put up a bat hook ladder (we didn't); we chose a "contrived" line (other, respected climbers tried the same thing before us); we spent "too" long on the route (who's to say, given the conditions, etc., AND we didn't seige the route); we "modified" our hooks (rarely, and a little, and WHAT "hard" El Cap routes haven't had modified hooks?) On and on--I remain baffled about HOW we "botched the route" or exactly WHAT stylistic issues we violated.

I do thank you for your tone, however, as it is as least one inviting dialog and an exchange of FACTS.

*
To Wbruan: I know that you WERE there during the "mess," having talked to you during that time. Unlike your previous post, in this post you seem to indicate that the "mess" WAS the "people flipping out," etc. I agree that people's reactions to our efforts WERE ridiculous (we had people actually telling us that El Cap was "God" in all seriousness). We were threatened with physical violence, yelled at (usually in large groups), and slandered in almost every climbing periodical for years after the ascent (and the "mess" goes on in this forum). However, actually, the real "mess" was what was left on our ropes by the chopping party after their cowardly night-time ascent of our fixed lines.

*
To Bringmedeath: We did do Ring of Fire, and we DID use bat hooks instead of rivets on that route. You say that you THINK the Nightmare crew supposedly filled these holes, which implies that they got past the same sections without drilling. Well, in this forum, I read people "thinking" lots of things I KNOW aren't true, so I suspect that to be the case here as well. I await to hear the true story about this, because, having done some of the supposed "hard" climbs in the Valley and in Utah (we did the second ascent of the supposed A6, by the "new rating" system, Intifada), I think I'm qualified to state that nobody was getting past our holes by any sort of traditional climbing. And, by the way, we downgraded Intifada to A4, by the old rating system--we found the supposed "death anchors" totally bomber, we found tons of solid bat hooks and deep trenches for heads (and alumaheads are bomber in that sandstone), and we found BOLT anchors for the last two anchors of the route (which gives the lie to Beyer's claims that if you fall on the last pitch, you will rip everything out for three anchors before heading on to the deck)!

In short, we have found almost nothing but crap and misinformation RIFE in the climbing community, and I wouldn't give a RIP, since I have never climbed FOR impressing anybody, except that it has gotten to be a real pain to be the BRUNT of such crap for so many years. Imagine if for years YOU found people yelling at you and gathering around you threatening violence at every climbing area you went to. Imagine years of people writing trash about you. Would you still remain a climber, or would you move on to some other "sport"? And don't blithly say, "Well, you have to endure the consequences of your actions." That's pretty trite when the "consequences" have been OF the actions of OTHERS, namely the lies they have told for decades, and these lies are repeated like gospel by those who know nothing. So, let me know when you can say more than you "think" you know something about what happened.

Rob Slater actually got up five pitches on Wings. He tried to set the record straight and was ignored on the subject until he died.

It would be fine with me if Wings was just completely ignored, because we didn't do that route FOR anybody (despite the claims that we "hyped the route"). But I really had higher hopes for the climbing community than that it would still be passing off the same old rumors and lies from decades ago as though they were true. So, don't pontificate about what you THINK has happened, thereby just adding to the same sordid rumor-mill. Talk humbly about what you KNOW.

*
To Spinmaster: I know I'm beating a dead horse here, since you clearly believe the misinformation that has been poured into your open head over the years. However, we did not "force" any line more contrived than MANY others on El Cap. In fact, our drilling ratio per foot of route, AND our drilling ratio to hooks, is lower on Wings of Steel than the vaunted Sea of Dreams! So, how contrived is that?

Any WHY must a route be "repeatable" in order for it to be "valid" or "commendable"? (I'm asking as an aside, because I deny that Wings isn't repeatable, since, clearly Rob Slater was able to repeat more than half of the slab.)

It seems that we are held to so many standards at once, that no matter how many standards we rise to, we must fall short on some others. But, let's at least get clear about a few simple FACTS. Ok, now repeat after me: Wings of Steel is NOT a rivet ladder; Wings of Steel is NOT a bat hook ladder; Wings of Steel is repeatable; Wings of Steel was ascended from the ground up, in one push, by two guys committed to living on the wall instead of seiging it; AND Wings of Steel has more total (natural) hook placements and a lower drilling/hook ratio than the Sea of Dreams. There. Are we all clear now?

Given the shoddy critical thinking skills and credulous mindset of many in the climbing community, I'm GLAD tar and feathers are not readily available in Yosemite.

*
To Wbraun: Wow, you actually got the "standard of truth" thing right, in principle. The problem is that Mark and I have been held "accountable" to a standard of lies foisted off on the climbing community by the likes of Bill Russell, which lies have been believed and further developed by the rumor-mill. Lines like "A thousand bolts to Horse Chute" were funny even to us at the time, but somehow such garbage has taken on a REAL life of its own, and it's not funny any more.

Mark and I have remained largely silent for decades, because we don't climb FOR anybody else, so the rumor-mill has seemed distant and otherworldly to us. Also, anything we tried to say in our own defense was treated by the periodicals as "hyping the route," so our efforts to set the record straight were blackballed. Oh well, we could live with such stupidity and hope that it would fade over time. But to see the same old crap repeated as gospel lo these many years later... well, I must say that the "standard of truth" in the climbing community is nowhere to be found. So, I have taken the time to write here and now BECAUSE it so pains me to see the climbing community JUST as petty and pathetic as it was decades ago. I KNOW that most of the people who climb do so for reasons akin to my own. So, it saddens me to see the sport I have loved since I was ten years old still so riddled with ego-mongers and liars. Is this the best we can do?

*
To 'Pass the pitons': Repeat after me: Wings of Steel is NOT a bat hook ladder. Try falling fifty feet down that 80-degree slab (which is close enough to vertical to give you GREAT velocity, WHILE being less enough from vertical to ensure that you will flay yourself on every irregularity), and THEN let's talk about how "bomber" our placements were! I dislocated my ankle on Wings, and I'll take the wildly overhanging stuff on the South East side any day by comparison.

*
To Sewellymon: Thanks for your post--after talking with you at the beach, we did do the fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams, and we found that our drilling ratio was actually much lower than that route, both in terms of holes to vertical feet and in terms of holes to hook placements. It is true that when we did Wings of Steel we were ignorant of what sorts of ratios were "acceptable," but it is also true that we believed (and still believe) that such ratios are NOT the issue in deciding what counts as a "valid" ascent. WHO you are counts for MUCH more than how many holes you drill (a point I made in my Rock and Ice article). I think that you have hit the piton on the head when you make this very point in your post. Had we been Jim Bridwell et al, we could have done EXACTLY what we did on Wings of Steel, and that route would be counted a TRIUMPH of technical skill and tenacity. But, it was just outrageous to the "valley boys" that we would have the audacity to come into "their" valley, climb on "their god," and presume that we actually knew how to do it "right". Your insight about this is appreciated!

*
To Bruce Morris: Hmmm... I'm trying to take this forum seriously, so I'm not as much "fun" in my response here as I usually am in real life. Should I be taking YOUR post seriously? Surely you jest. I'm not much "fun"??? That's the most amazing indictment to have come down the pike in the last twenty-odd years! Of all the attacks on us over the years, I think that one is the most irrelevant. Grats!

Your comment about our religion is, however, most baffling: "certainly are members of some kind of odd religious cult." Whoops, your ignorance is showing. The Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a mainstream Protestant denomination, sharing traditional beliefs with more than two hundred other Protestant denominations. True, we do worship on Saturday rather than Sunday, but that hardly qualifies us as an "odd cult". I'm TRYING to take you seriously, but I guess that you INTEND that I share in the "fun" of such "light" comments, so I'll try to be more "fun" now.

"Houses in suburbia"??? Uhhhh... uhhhh... ok... I'm trying HARD now.... uhhh... blankness.... uhhh... the point here??? I'm trying to get it... very... hard... uhhh... I... see... blackness... uhhh... not... getting... it... uhhhh.... brain in vapor lock!

Nope, sorry, I just can't be that fun.

*
To Gunkie: "Odd in their religious fever"? Again, it seems that no matter how many standards we rise to, there is yet another one we cannot rise above. WHEN did being fervent about one's God become a BAD thing? At least, unlike our critics, we are HONEST! And WHAT does our religion have to do with Wings of Steel, other than the fact that keeping the Sabbath cost us longer on the route than most people take to climb El Cap? Ok, that aside. :-)

Let's try again... well, you get the point. Yes, we are committed to our religion, but it's not like our RELIGION leads us to go on suicide bombing runs or stuff like that. So, we kept the Sabbath on the route. Hmmm... is there something worth comment about that? I would just let your comment slide except for the typical negative twist that always accompanies discussions about us and Wings of Steel. Again, if Jim Bridwell had done EXACTLY as we did, his religious commitment would be "noble" rather than "odd".

Take the red pill, people!

(BTW, Slater got to the fifth anchor before succumbing to the heat.)

*
Well... ok... I could say lots more, but that's my rant for the decade. See you again in another decade or so. I'll check back in thereabouts to see if any clarity/sanity has infected the climbing community or this forum (doubtful). Meanwhile, I guess I'll just keep doing routes for myself that will never be repeated, seeking that internal state that makes it all worthwhile, and enjoy those few kindred spirits who are also seeking as I am. Meanwhile, I'll TRY HARD to be less "odd" and to be more "fun" so that more people will LIKE ME, cuz that's sooo important.
phile

Trad climber
SF, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 02:34am PT
now *that* was a long post! sounds like you got the short end of the stick, but what do I know. thanks for an interesting read.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Oct 25, 2005 - 02:47am PT
Well said, but you forgot to say. Now Sit The F*#k Down.
Watusi

Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 03:27am PT
I do remember that it took those guys some time... When they were still fairly low on this Mike Corbett, Scott Cole and myself got ready to do the 3rd on Cosmos, got on it, and completed it. After then I returned and did Aquarian, and descended and it really didn't look like they had made a whole lot of progress in that time...Just an observation from back then...
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2005 - 10:21am PT
madbolter1,

I said 'religious fervor' not 'religious fever'. Using the later rather the the former completely changes the tone of what I wrote. I reread my apparently offending post a number of times; I see no place where I referred or implied that religion was bad. For clarification: IMO, it would have been a better read had the parables been left out of the text. Perhaps the word 'odd' was a poor choice of adjective on my part. I found the book to be interesting and the story, gripping.

If it's any consolation, I'm in your corner with regards to the 'Wings of Steel' history and legacy.

Scott Ghiz [Gunkie]
the Fet

Trad climber
Loomis, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 10:58am PT
I take it the route name was a response to the "mess", but I can't help but think there would be less long term controversy if it had been named Wobbly Hooks instead of Wings of Steel. ;-)
darod

Trad climber
New York
Oct 25, 2005 - 11:37am PT
Weenis? Ammon? Lambone?...anything else "you've heard"?
WBraun

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:10pm PT
Richard and Mark

Decades later you decide to clear up misinformation about your ascent. Thus the misinformation is then attributed to your fault as not bringing any information in the first place to the public.

Speculation is always rampant in our modern world so what do you expect people to do? They are not saints. They start to speculate. I remember all to well that day you came to the SAR cache to try to talk about your situation on El cap and the various people that you were dealing with. That is why I said it was a “terrible mess”. Thus you too have fallen prey to speculation as to what I meant. I never attributed “terrible mess” to what you were doing on El cap, but only to the social aspects of all the fighting. I actually tried to diffuse some of that for you but those guys where having the time of their life and where so far deeply into it that there was not much hope at that point in time. They were fixated in their way.

When I heard what happened as to their sabotage tactics later I was pretty angry about that. They had no such right nor did it help whatsoever, as we know it just made the whole thing even worst. One of the perpetrators we in later time actually ran him out of YOSAR. Another story altogether.

Thus you have been held accountable to the misinformation due to remaining largely silent for decades, …..“because we don't climb FOR anybody else.”

I believe the real reason none of your routes have not been repeated is your lines really do not have the aesthetically pleasing magnetism as some of the other more popular lines and not because of the “so called controversy” or difficulty.

People are attracted to the lines that stand out to them. Do not jump to the conclusion that I’m knocking your line.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:43pm PT
"Weenis? Ammon? Lambone?...anything else "you've heard"?"

Nope, I take back what I said....which was admittedly just a hearsay rumor that I decided to repeat on a whim.

I did think the part about chiseling the hook placements was kinda lame...but whatever, not like I would try a route like that anyway. Otherwise a great long post. I usualy don't read the long ones, but he only repeated himslef a couple of times.
Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:52pm PT
I remember talking with Shaggy a long while back )I think we were on the Free Blast?); we were both sort of learning about aid climbing and he was particularly curious about what exactly one can hook: "like those-- (points to tiny flakes on SW face apron)- do they hook those things??" I couldn't imagine that anyone did, but now I guess we know. Yikes.
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Oct 25, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
Repeating an ugly slab route is a lot to ask. Why would you want to do ten or so pitches of hooking on a slab? Does this route have anything to recommend it? Also if I recall correctly, the drilled hole count is disproportionately high compared to other El Cap routes. (Source: Charles Cole article in Climbing in the late '80's?) Fact or fiction?

Still it would be interesting to get a modern opinion of the quality and merit of the route by a party that got to the top.
Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 25, 2005 - 03:38pm PT
If you were really into seeing just exactly what kind of teensy flake would hold up, didn't have a problem with long skidders(Minerals? I bet you've got a bitchen set of leathers, you could combine passions!)it would be a good way to do that. Other than that, sure, climb something else.

Ugly is kind of in the eye of the beholder. The shitstains are doubtless long gone...unless the slab-hooking thing really scares you and they make a comeback.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 25, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
Werner,

I came across this thread the other day and had chosen to not respond. Since you address your post to me (how do you know I’m lurking out here?), I think I should. First, I want to state that I think you and most of the others who have contributed to this thread do so honestly, so don’t take my comments to follow otherwise.

Thanks for clarifying that the “terrible mess” was your view of the response to the climb and not the climb itself. In just looking at your initial post I took you to mean that you viewed the climb as a mess in that it was in poor style (a rivet ladder). (To the post: “I … heard the route was a rivet ladder and put up in very poor style,” you replied, “Yes Ammon, it was a terrible mess for sure.”)

“Decades later you decide to clear up misinformation about your ascent. Thus the misinformation is then attributed to your fault as not bringing any information in the first place to the public.”
Well, I suppose there is some truth here, but it is not the case that no information was provided and quite the case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I did write an article published in Climbing in 1983 which was sufficiently detailed to clearly dispel the false notions in this thread. For that article I was attacked as “hyping the route.” So I do think that sufficient info was out there, including a topo that shows the location of EVERY hole on the route and what type of hole it was. I think that more info was unnecessary and would have fostered the belief that we climbed the route for attention. But you’re right that speculation is rampant in our world and is to be expected. As for me, I am I’m sure for you to, I try not to advance speculation as fact. What isn’t acceptable in this thread are statements claiming first hand knowledge of things such as “a streak of feces and trash 200 meters long below their hangin' bivy camp.”

Our climbs not repeated [by anyone, ever!] because they aren’t aesthetic? Perhaps. But a number of parties have been intrigued enough to start an attempt, beginning all the way back to the winter of 1982.

BTW, a 20+ year belated thanks for acting as a moderating influence in the Valley.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Oct 25, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
Interesting thread. I am glad to read the post from the team member, a lot to digest.
Like Watusi, I climbed Aquarius during the Wings episode. It was truly something to see; portaledges right and left, many haulbags, we refered to them as the "Window washers™" 'cause that's what their movable camp resembled. I will post a photo.

I didn't know firsthand, many facts about their ascent in progress, just that they took an amazing amount of stuff, they went incredibly slow, and they had sparked ill will locally. I listened to a lot of the innuendo, I knew about the chopping / defacating thing, my prefudice was inclined against the washers. I heard it was their first El Cap route, "What audacity!"

We climbed Aquarius incredibly slowly, it was our first el cap route, and we sat out one of the same storms mentioned, too. They were a landmark. On the hike in we were very aware of their, ejecta, ( I particularly remember the, Odwalla ?) pee bottles, it was easy to go with the prevelent views.

While we were slogging up our route, it was an event when, one day, the window washers moved their camp. Took a day or so to move up to where they had fixed. You had to see it to believe it. They were doing something different than we were, no doubt; we were doing an early ascent of a trade route, they were, what were they doing? and everybody seemed to hate them.

We finished our route, hung two days, (Tuna pancakes)and climbed the Nose. The window washers were still there. We climbed some more, I had a birthday, and evenetually the washers were down.

I met one of those guys, his car (280-Z?) was parked next to the colonels rig in the lodges old back row. Enthusiastic, very upbeat, blasting "Rainbow" on the Stereo, "They're the best, man." Seemed a lot like other climbers I'd met. Not any more wierdo-esque than the rest of us.
I had reason to hike the west base of the capitain after that, Somebody, sure cleaned it up.

Another part of the mosaic.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 25, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
"I didn't know firsthand, many facts about their ascent in progress, just that they took an amazing amount of stuff, they went incredibly slow, and they had sparked ill will locally..."

sounds like another prolific poster around here...
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 25, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
There seems to be an assumption that the drilled holes on the fifth ascent of the Sea were all original. Not sure if that's true, if I remember correctly the route got drilled out pretty early. For certain, variations with more holes than the original pitches were added.

In any case, at the time, 50 -75 holes per new El Cap route was a lot for the standard of the time. In the 90's, things changed, and 100 was a low number for many of the "new routes."

BTW: hole = anytime a drill was used to create or enhance a placement. According to the standard of the day, anyway.

Better ask the Bird....
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Oct 25, 2005 - 06:26pm PT
"sounds like another prolific poster around here..."

?
kevin Fosburg

Sport climber
park city,ut
Oct 25, 2005 - 08:40pm PT
For what it's worth, I talked to Slater after he was up on Wings of Steel. He was very impressed with the difficulty of the climbing and said it was much harder than the Sea.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 25, 2005 - 08:44pm PT
Dingus wrote,

"Hey ptpp... seems like you might have inadvertantly painted using the same broad brush that has been used against you... ie repeating inuendo and gossip as if it were fact.

Are you going to accept the Wings of Steel challege? Can you go where Slater backed off???

DMT"

Yes, I have thought about this, and reread my post several times. I hope you notice that I quoted HalHammer, and then wrote "It sounds like...." based on what HalHammer wrote. Since Hal seemed to write with conviction, I'll confess I probably believed him, though covered my ass more or less by using the quote. At any rate, it was inadvertent.

So I'm not sure I need to apologize or not, but I'll add a "sorry 'bout that, mate" just to be safe.

As for the second part, Dingus, are you freakin' nuts?! That route sounds way too hard and scary. However if you wanna go halfers on the hook pitches, then let's do it.

Thanks, Richard and Mark, for telling us your side of the story. Until such time as someone actually goes up there and repeats it, we'll take yer words for it. It's amazing that there was so much controversy and misinformation regarding this route? Why do you suppose that is? You really shoulda oughta have spoken up a little more vocally, eh?

But there's one thing I just don't get:

You say you spent a month up there or so, and hauled 1200 pounds of stuff, yet took no beer?

I just spent two weeks on El Cap, hauled less than a quarter of what you guys took [yes, there were two of us], and we brought PLENTY of beer. Booze notwithstanding, what the heck did yous guys bring up there, anyway?????
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
I'm not sure all the info I posted was exactly true or not. One of the best sources I got the same opinions from was a guy named Mark Spencer who seemed to know the whole scoop. With the only exception of this one thread I've repeatedly heard the story that the Wings of Steel climbers used a lot of bathook ladders over and over again from other sources too. One of the only other on-line postings I've been able to find from Mark Smith I believe; was a debate by him over why bat hook holes are better than rivits, so that makes even less sense If now the story is no bat hooks were used. I've never been on the climb. Looking at the route topos seems to agree with this at a glance??? Somebody else should climb the route, that's been said enough.

Working for the company in Wawona longterm, all I know is I still get a lot of shiat everywhere I go for being affiliated with these guys and the Wings of Steel at all as a Seventh Day Adventist. Camp Wawona? Oh that's where those "losers" who drilled El Cap were from!!?!??!?!?!? They your friends, your boss???? I was given a hard time again when I applied for my first AMGA course. On a side note, I was even refused sale of a bolt kit from the Mountain Shop. This is decades later; and I can't say I don't get fed up. Certainly I haven't taken to endorsing their refuted tactics.

If the rumours and seeming reputable stories about your routes aren't true... Mark and Richard why have you not defended them until now? As far as I can see your ascent has gone down in the books as the most disgraceful and poor style climb is Yosemite valley history regardless of what the actual story might be. I don't care if you don't climb for others, who does? You can't not defend yourself; there is no way I'd let a reputation like that continue, especially one that's not true. Heck...I've been told by an extremely famous modern day valley climber that he would out right kill you guys if you went for another ascent on El Cap again; something along the lines of: "burn their houses, steal their cars, kick their arse, and if they go anywhere near a trade route I'd be so mad I'd kill 'em."

4 questions though...

1. How did you haul 1200 lbs of gear with you up the route? How many ropes did that take?

2. Did you do the 2nd free ascent of a Blue Moon on Wawona Dome after Floyd Hayes and Mark Spencer?

3. A few names: James Hanson, Jerry Dodrill, Tony Yaniro, Daniel Moore do you know or did you work with any of these guys?

4. Mark what happened at Swan Slab with Ken Yager and YMS?


You can also E-mail me at rctetz@puc.edu thanks.
WBraun

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 10:38pm PT
Richard in his original post said:

"Well... ok... I could say lots more, but that's my rant for the decade. See you again in another decade or so. I'll check back in thereabouts to see if any clarity/sanity has infected the climbing community or this forum (doubtful)."

So he only talks once a decade .......?

Now why would someone say something as stupid as this if they are trying to defend themselves? ("See you again in another decade or so")
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Oct 25, 2005 - 11:05pm PT
I remember reading about this sh#t in the rags. Imagine if you will, a climber learning during the Granite years, a time where YOS was reverred as THE WORLD CLIMBING CENTER. And I learned on a granite area , LCC, with RR's books as my guide. Then there is so much sh#t flyin.

It seemed totally counter to the sport. Lets face it, we have no WRITTEN rules, but if you f&&&in cross the unwritten line you had g**damn better not show your face!

Unfortunatley, the way it was portrayed in the climbing media at the time was that the FA team of Wings of Steel crossed over an unwritten Yos rule: If you want to do a FA on El Cap, you must first pay homage to those locals that at that time consider themselves GOD. You must pay homage in the right way, as we see fit. We will not tell you what way that is.

Sorry, these are observations from a person who has climbed for 30 years and has done a few things in their time. Nothing to be famous for except in my own mind.

The other thing! Where did all you guys who heard on good faith that what the FAist did was horrible? HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED TO CLIMB THE THING AGAIN? GET REAL! IF CLIMBERS OF THE YEAR 2005 ARE BETTER THEN THOSE OF OVER 20 YEARS AGO, WHY HASNT ANYONE REPEATED THIS CLIMB?

Sorry, I get real tired of climbers reading the mags as I did, or hearing it on good faith saying these guys screwed the pooch. Those of you that are doing that are spreading the same kind of stuff my father did on the lawn when i was a kid.....All it does is make the grass grow.

While my opinion of Rob S is not the highest for good reasons, I respect the fact that he let these guys know their route was a hardmans route. SH&&ing on their ropes was chickensh#t. And those of you who were not even climbers then and said bad rumours are so FOS that I want you to come visit my lawn next spring......

There now, my rant for the evening.....
mike hartley

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 11:53pm PT
My bet was always that Mark and Richard had been given the shaft. Not that I knew them or had ever seen their route. I had a friend put up a new route on Middle Cathedral about the same time. Good style - ground up, hand drilling from stances. He was threatened with a beating later by the locals for not asking permission first. Same for Jimmy Dunn. There are others easily added to the list.

Sh*tting on the guys ropes? Definately showed the character of the local rock police.

People's perceptions and memories are always distorted and inaccurate to some degree but I'm betting on Mark and Richard even more after reading their reply above.
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 12:23am PT
Mike H. what route on Middle Cathedral was that?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 26, 2005 - 01:28am PT
Well, I'm quite impressed by the number and quality of the follow-up posts, and the tone of most of them motivates me to say a bit more. I know I said "in another decade or so," but the responses to my post have been MUCH different from what we have come to expect over the years. So, I'll invest a bit more effort here, if you can sit through another lengthy post.

A common complaint in the replies is that Mark and I didn't do enough to "defend ourselves" during the last twenty-plus years. Werner even suggests that we are responsible for the sheer mass and impenetrable density of misinformation, given that we didn't defend ourselves. So, rather than to be thought "stupid" in addition to everything else, I will continue now to "defend ourselves".

In his recent post, I think that Mark did a good job explaining that we DID make every reasonable effort to defend ourselves, but it seems that some here have missed his points. So, let me list the things we did over the years. We each wrote articles and got them published in the mags (Climbing and Rock and Ice). We toured all over the country giving slide shows to tens of thousands of people. During the months surrounding the ascent itself, we spent ENDLESS hours attempting dialog with people in the Valley, and we spent YEARS afterward at major climbing areas all over California explaining ourselves to the MANY people who would gather around to badger us. And, as Mark has said, our every attempt to defend ourselves has been cast in the climbing press as "hyping the route," coupled with lengthy published diatribes devoted to defaming us yet further.

In fact, we climbed the Sea partly to demonstrate that we weren't the inept losers we were being cast as (although the primary reason was that we wanted to see for ourselves where we stood, because Wings sure seemed damn hard to us)! When we climbed the Sea, it was being touted as the hardest rock climb in the world, and we were being challenged to give it a shot (along with public exhortations to the gods that we would meet our demise in the attempt). So, we did it without adding a hole, without taking a fall, and in a reasonable period of time (given our Sabbath days off).

Later, various authors (our critics) in the mags were frothing at the mouth about Intifada in Utah. This was called the hardest rock climb in the world, with tales of A6 (new rating scale), death anchors, and the likely possibility of ripping multiple pitches to the deck. So, we did the second ascent of that heap, downgraded it RADICALLY for the pile that it was, and published an account of that in Climbing. Those two climbs were partially done as attempts to "defend ourselves".

Our attitude during those years was, "Go ahead critics, call something the 'hardest rock climb in the world,' and we'll go climb it and downgrade it." But we got past that attitude for the self-serving, reactionary phase that it was.

At any rate, actually, I'm not sure what more we could/should have done to defend ourselves. What we found, and what we have ALWAYS found (which is WHY I had no intention of devoting any more time to this forum after my first post), is that NOBODY would actually HEAR us or believe us. Our critics have been on the "in," and we have been on the "out". It has always been assumed that we were lying about the route, and the people actively and vindictively spreading the actual lies about us have been well-known, highly-regarded climbers.

It turns out that people are inclined to believe someone they know, who knows someone, who knows someone else, who knows one of these highly-regarded climbers, and so the rumor-mill is pervasive! There would not have been time in our lives to explain to all the people needing an explanation, we have utilized the climbing press to the extent we were allowed, and people simply have not believed us.

Then, later, as I said, even Slater couldn't get a letter to the editor printed in Climbing magazine. So, the more public avenues were closed to us. What, Werner, were we supposed to do then? Hire out TV spots? Take out ads in the mags? I'm honestly not sure what you expected us to do. Almost nobody has wanted to take our side seriously, and we have wasted amazing amounts of time and energy getting nowhere toward changing minds. So far from our posts in this forum being our first attempts to defend ourselves, we have been trying ACTIVELY for decades!

The whole experience has been very eye-opening for me, as I have seen first-hand the amazing power a small group of credible people can utilize to get an entire community of people to believe a lie, and this in the face of us being VERY vocal and active in our own defense.

Witness the length of my posts as evidence of the effort it takes to "respond". Werner can in a line pop off with something like, "as stupid as this," yet, it takes significant space to explain WHY I would say something like that. EVERYTHING about the ascent requires significant space and effort to explain, and prior to this second post, I had come to conclude that such effort was entirely wasted.

On that note, I honestly want to thank the many posters for their obvious interest in finding out the actual truth, and for quite apparently taking my post seriously. As you can imagine, our dealings with the climbing community at large has usually been quite painful, and the reply posts so far have been very refreshing to me.

Another point that bears mentioning, since people on this topic keep asking about repeat attempts, is that Mark and I quit counting aborted attempts on the route after about fifteen. It was easy to see "new" attempts, because one of the bolts about 1/3 of the way up the first pitch kept sprouting new rap slings. We counted more than fifteen new rap slings in the first two years alone, and after that we just quit keeping track. Of course, we don't know how many of these "attempts" were just treating the first pitch as a "base route," but the fact remains that people were NOT making it to the first anchor because the first pitch anchor slings never changed. Maybe that has changed since we stopped keeping track, but, nevertheless, a LOT of people have been on at least the first pitch, and so they KNOW that the route is NOT some sort of ladder. The route has been attempted MANY times, and the route itself defends us!

Over the years, one has to ask how much time and anguish the defense effort is worth. I mean, HOW much do you expend before you finally say, "Well, it's pretty clear that we can't win even battles, much less the war," and you retire from the field? And comparing this fiasco with the Robbins/Harding debacle (as has been done elsewhere) doesn't even come CLOSE! Robbins was HONORABLE in his dealings with Harding, a point that Harding has admitted to me many times, and Robbins actually respected Harding in spite of their radical disagreements. I have seen in the later generation of climbers an unwillingness to treats others in honorable fashion. Mark and I are not the only ones who have been defamed unjustly; we just happen to be the ones who have probably gotten it worse than anybody else.

So, I hope I have hereby answered the question, "Why have you not defended yourselves until now?" We have never totally ceased from defending ourselves (witness my first post here), but over the decades of making NO dent in the defamation, we HAVE begun to tire of it.

Thanks again all for actually stimulating me to "pick up the fight" once again. :-)

I'll answer some of the logistical questions in another post.
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 01:44am PT
Yes It worked, .... eh Richard.

That's why I "popped off" the one liner to get you to respond because you said you will come back in a decade, now that wouldn't do us any good, would it?

Now it sounds like you need some kind of "closure" to relieve the pain in your heart after all these years.

How will that work, Richard? Some unseen forces in your destiny by the powers of karma have brought all this on to you. How will you make amends with your fate?

Best wishes, Werner
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 26, 2005 - 01:49am PT
A few logistical answers...

We did haul seven bags off the ground, for a total of 1200 pounds of stuff. We took along eleven ropes, mostly 11mm and a couple of 9mm. We fixed three pitches from bivy anchor to bivy anchor and then devoted one day to moving the massive armada up those three pitches.

By the time we reached the top of the slab, we were down to two bags (containing mostly gear, clothes, sleeping stuff, etc.), and we had been on the wall for over a month. We were also down to about 1200 calories per day at this point. Our planning for about twenty-five days on the wall was woefully short, and we paid the price for that miscalculation! The last week of the ascent, we were down to 600 calories per day, and we were getting quite weak.

Keep in mind that we knew we were going to be on the slab for a LONG time, which totally changes the way you have to think about food and water. For a week or two, you can go light on water and eat pretty much any sort of garbage that turns your crank. But as the weeks pile up, you have to start thinking about how your body is going to respond to the abuse. Effects are cumulative. So, expecting HOT weather that never came, we planned on a gallon of water each, which amounted to fifty gallons of water (450 pounds of just water). We poured water out all the way up the wall, but I have also been on El Cap many times when a gallon a day didn't even come CLOSE to what I was needing. So, we had more water than we needed, as it turned out, but to do over again, with more summer El Cap experience under my belt, I would have taken MORE water, not less. You cannot keep yourself in a state of chronic dehydration for that long without significant ill effects.

The same principle applies to food. We brought up balanced meals, which included a lot of canned fruit and vegetables. We planned on 2500 calories per person per day, although looking back that was clearly not enough.

In answer to the "beer post" (ptpp), :-), prepare to be amazed, but neither of us like how it tastes. We both like various wines, but they don't do much for dehydration.

I'll give more details if asked... but I'm trying for a "short" post this time.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 26, 2005 - 01:53am PT
sounds like you maybe think your route is important or something?

are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 26, 2005 - 01:59am PT
Oh, Werner, you keep baiting me :-)

I don't believe in either fate or karma. I do believe in people causing good or bad in this present life/world, and I do believe in moral accountability.

Actually, I don't expect "closure" at this point. We thought that once a guy like Slater had gotten as high on the route as he did, and was willing to very vocally try to vindicate us, that the nightmare would be over... but such was not the case. So, we reached a point of thinking that external circumstances were not going to be the source of any peace.

After enough years, you come to know yourself, as I'm sure you know, and I think that our pain has largely morphed into a sort of quiet acceptance that we will never be understood by the climbing community. So, perhaps that's "closure" enough.

It is possible to have ongoing joy without constant happiness, and it is possible to have peace in spite of ongoing pain. So, our experiences with the climbing community have been largely painful, but I think I can speak for Mark as well when I say that we have lots of both peace and joy. My climbing has been the most worthwhile, rewarding, ongoing-life-changing aspect of my entire life, and the climbing community can't affect that. Thus, the way I see "defending ourselves" in forums like this is quite distant from the core of who I am and from the climber that I am.

I hope that makes some sense.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:05am PT
No, Lambone, I don't think the ROUTE is important. I DO think that what has happened in our relation with the climbing community is important, because it speaks volumes about human interactions in general.

I haven't done enough routes on El Cap to know where Wings is in the scale of "hard" climbs. I don't think that "hard" is an objective feature of routes anyway. Mindsets make routes feel "hard" to people. Some people hate hooking, and that seems "hard" to them--then Wings will seem really, really hard to such a person. Others hate expanding nailing. You know, it's all in the mind anyway. Right?

I have done "harder" routes than Wings. Our last route, Ring of Fire, seemed MUCH "harder" to me than Wings did, while the Sea and Intifada seemed MUCH easier to me. But, I hear of new horror routes that are way "hard" on El Cap. So, who am I to say where Wings is in the grand scale of things?
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:07am PT
Richard said: "So, we reached a point of thinking that external circumstances were not going to be the source of any peace."

Yes, that's intelligent.
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:26am PT
Lambone sez: "sounds like you maybe think your route is important or something?

are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated?"

Interesting idea. Not baiting Mark, but if it was or is the hardest route on El Cap and no one has bothered to give a serious go since Slater because it is universally dissed as a sh#t route? What if it is harder than the (original) Sea? The word irony doesn't adequately describe that possibility.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:58am PT
"I DO think that what has happened in our relation with the climbing community is important, because it speaks volumes about human interactions in general."

Which climbing community?

My guess is that 99.9 % of the "climbing community" as a whole has never heard of Wings of Steel. Nor would know what formation it's on, or wo put it up, or the story behind it.

Probly the same could be said about Ring of Fire.

Were you really suprised when the Valley locals were not happy when you picked the most FEATURELESS aspect of El Cap to make your first ascent?

Seems like the traditional ethic was to minimize blank face aid climbing (i.e. bolting) whenever possible. You chose the opposite approach. A move that takes balls no doubt. But I can easily see how people took it as you giving climbing ethics the middle finger, so to speak. What you got from the community was the middle finger back, which is generaly how most human interactions work.

Just an opinion from the sidelines. I'm glad that you have apparently found peace (or not, considering your lengthy posts), but what you have written makes it sound like you have learned to cope with living with cancer or something....

I supose you could call this post a troll.
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 26, 2005 - 03:28am PT
yes lambone .. that post is definately troll bait
mike hartley

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 09:38am PT
Werner,

The route was Catdancer and the climber that told me the story was Paul Landrom. Paul was a hell of a nice guy and a very solid climber. I never heard anyone in the Oregon climbing community ever say a bad word about him. He seemed rather shocked by the response he received while putting up the route.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2005 - 10:39am PT
HalHammer,

Hey, I’m sorry for what you at Camp Wawona have gone through over this.

“If the rumours and seeming reputable stories about your routes aren't true... Mark and Richard why have you not defended them until now?”

When I showed up to do Wings of Steel, I was focused on personal mission, although I don’t think I really understood it at the time. I had no idea of the extent of the controversy that would ensue. My mom had recently died after a long battle with cancer and I needed to know who I was and the point of my existence. If there hadn’t been another climber who would ever notice or care we were there, I would have climbed Wings and would have climbed it to the best of my ability, all 39 days of it. The reality was that the climb was extremely stressful for me and was beyond my ability. Stepping up to a higher level became the formative event in molding who I am today. Nothing can take away what Wings means to me, so perhaps this diminishes my need to defend it. Of course it would be great to be respected for the climb. I want that now as much as then. As Richard details in his post, we did do a lot to tell the story. I think that Climbing’s decision to not publish Slater’s article helped lead me to take a fairly fatalistic view of the whole thing, that the inertia against the climb was too much to overcome. Of course, the Internet wasn’t a forum until recently.

To reaffirm, we climbed the entire Great Slab without a single bat hook. If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt. Mark Spencer, who isn’t an admirer, wasn’t in the Valley during Wings and is getting his info from others. I don’t doubt that Mark believed what he told you; many others have believed as well.

Prior to this thread I have never posted a view on bat hooks or bolting, so the previous source you read wasn’t mine.

Regarding Blue Moon, no, I’ve climbed a line that crosses through its traverse pitch, but I haven’t climbed it. Blue Moon and several other Wawona Dome climbs are well worth the hike. Some great stuff there for those who like being the only car at the trailhead.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2005 - 10:55am PT
To John Vawter,

In reply to "are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated? ... Not baiting Mark, but ..."

The fact that Wings of Steel is unrepeated is certainly interesting, but it doesn't prove anything. The only thing I'll assert is that I was maxed when we did it.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Oct 26, 2005 - 11:07am PT
I'm a bit surprised by the amount of real discussion here instead of the normal baiting and drivel (Lambone's cheap troll excepted). Still, no reply from Ammon or Bruce Morris, both of whom seemed to have opinions before the explanatory posts. Any more comment guys?
yo

climber
NOT Fresno
Oct 26, 2005 - 11:15am PT
I haven't cared either way on this (though I've heard the slander from numerous sources) and I'm inclined to give both Richard and Mark the benefit of the doubt. I for one am super glad you downrated that Intifada sh#t. That makes many people smile.


But here's what bothers me:

With a hook failure rate of 30% on the FA, what's the sustainability of such a route?

If the route got twenty ascents, would there be anything left but rivets/bathooks?

Is it possible that many people (upwards of 15 parties?) have bailed from the first pitch because it's been ripped clean by traffic?

Was Slater forced to drill or unwilling to drill and forced to retreat?


And re: Ammon, don't yank his chain too much, he might go second this thing in like 18 hours.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Oct 26, 2005 - 11:26am PT
I'm not yanking Ammon's chain, nor am I yanking Bruce's. They posted and I'd like to hear their follow up opinions. I for one would love for someone with Ammon's (apparent) climbing abilities and Werner's integrity to climb the route (I say apparent with no slight intended. I don't know Ammon and without personal knowledge I can only assume from what I've seen that he's a cutting edge climber. And I assume and hope that he has Werner's integrity, but I don't know him, so I use Werner as a "measuring stick.") Anyway, if someone with these attributes repeats the route and reports "objectively" it could clear up decades of conflicting information. I still remember the contoversy that swirled around this route in my very earliest days of climbing and I'm very interested in the information coming out now.
John Vawter

Social climber
San Diego
Oct 26, 2005 - 11:59am PT
"The route was Catdancer and the climber that told me the story was Paul Landrom. Paul was a hell of a nice guy and a very solid climber."

That's Landrum. Good guy, and alive and well. Not to be confused with Lambone, who made some good points. The business pitches on these routes (Wings and Winds of Change) are on the apron (Great Slab). Yecch. That angle is more conducive to balancing a hook on a very minimal edge. But why bother when it takes so many rivets and bolts to put it all together?

Sustainability. Once the flake is gone you can't make the hook move without drilling a hole. Whereas nailed out routes usually take micro cams, ball nuts, etc., or have fixed gear. That is a qualitative difference.

Ultimately, as Werner says, it's a free country, notwithstanding the objections of the Valley Christians. We can speculate 'til the cows come home but it's all just gas until somebody climbs it and renders an informed opinion.
wildone

climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
Oct 26, 2005 - 12:35pm PT
It would be awesome to see some of the current badasses go give it a serious go. I wish I was at that skill level, as it sounds like it would be quite a thing, almost a service to the climbing community to clear up all this tripe, sad, bickering.
mike hartley

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
J. Vawter,

Yea, Landrum is right. Simple typo. Paul inspired a lot of us Oregon yahoos back in the '70s. On his first trip up to Half Dome he went up to do a standard overnight ascent but they climbed so fast they topped out in a day. Paul said they didn't plan to do it in a day, it was just an "accident". The man liked to move. Glad to hear that he's doing well.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
Yo wrote “But here's what bothers me: With a hook failure rate of 30% on the FA, what's the sustainability of such a route? If the route got twenty ascents, would there be anything left but rivets/bathooks?”

Yo, that’s a valid concern. While the quality of El Cap granite varies quite a bit, at its best its quality is amazing. A nickel thick level edge will consistenly hold body weight with a Leeper narrow hook. Simply unbelievable. Unfortunately, some micro-ledges are actually the tops of micro-flakes which are subject to being separated from the main wall by a very thin layer of greenish clay. (It seems that the clay is an end product of a natural deterioration process of the minerals in the rock rather than something that has washed in, but that’s just a guess.) Looking at a micro-ledge it’s usually impossible to know whether you are staring at simple ledge, the top of a solid flake, or the top of an undercut flake. If too large of an area has been undercut by clay, the whole flake is subject to peeling off. Many if not most of the micro-ledges/micro-flakes on the area of El Cap we climbed are not undercut with clay. These should be able to sustain repeated hook placements. No doubt that there are some flakes that we stood on that are undercut and are time bombs ready to go off. In the majority of these cases, other flakes will be available, at least for those willing to try. So I think that the route as a whole is reasonably sustainable, although clearly more holes will go in over time. But the route is not as sustainable as others, which is a valid criticism. I want to go off on a rant about the trashing (needless non-sustainability) of big wall classics like the Sea which has been turned into an A2 or A3 fixed copperhead clip-up, but I’ll save that for another time.

”Is it possible that many people (upwards of 15 parties?) have bailed from the first pitch because it's been ripped clean by traffic?”
Slater’s ascent to the 5th anchor was not one of the earliest attempts, giving credence to the notion that the remaining flakes are stable.
jack herer

climber
chico, ca
Oct 26, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
someone f*#kin climb the route now
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Oct 26, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
Yeah, somebody climb it. I weigh too much for hooking fragile flakes, and I'm not sure I'm looking to do El Cap again all that soon. Who's a "light" hard man that can answer our questions?
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 26, 2005 - 03:53pm PT
"(Lambone's cheap troll excepted).

Why dismiss my troll as cheap? Surely it was a troll, but a sincere one at that, not cheap at all IMHO, but valid from one perspective.

These two guys above come off not understanding why so many people dissed their route when the answer is obvious. It's a forced line up a black face.

The tradition on El Cap (as far as I know) was to minimize forced blank face climbing by linking as many features as possible to create a natural line. Even Hardings WEML linked spectacular features.

So Wings follows a water streak, yeah well folks that want to climb water streaks ussualy head up to Toulomne and put their free shoes on.

Aiding up a feature (or lack of feature) like that is forcing your way ip the stone under drill and chissel (as they admited above to chiseling hook placements).

Doing so to link to crack systems is one thing. Doing so from the ground up with no intentions of finding or following crack systems is another thing altogether.

So fellas, don't be confused about why people diss your route, it's clearly obvious. Sure the hook moves are no doubt ballsy, but there is no doubt a clear difference in style between an ascent that works with the mountain following natural features and gaining vertical ground as the mountain allows you, and bashing your way up the thing with chissel and drill. So you had more hook placements (some chisseld) then drilled holes, so what?

Dumbing down the Sea of Dreams to justify your route by hole count is missing the point. The Sea is a natural line of features. The Great Slab is just that, sometimes not meant to be climbed.
mike hartley

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 04:18pm PT
Lambone,

If, as they reported, they predominently used natural hooks how can you say they didn't follow natural features? Maybe others had "eyes but could not see"?
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Oct 26, 2005 - 04:39pm PT
Good thing there are people who can tell you what you can and can't climb.

So what if it was a slab. We can't climb slab now? We can only climb big features and cracks, drilling ladders between them?

For all the spraying about 'hard aid' and the number of sequential hook moves being 'puckering' its funny to see fools like lambone rag on this climb. Isn't difficulty good? Isn't 8 hook moves in a row something to aspire to for those that care?
darod

Trad climber
New York
Oct 26, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
Mike, I kinda have to agree with you; "weaknesses" aren't just cracks I suppose, so until someone has actually climbed the route and proved otherwise, I have to believe Mark and Richard (for whatever that's worth).

I think that some people here are trying to detour us from the main topic that has come out of this post. If the route is aesthetic or classic in any way, is not relevant at this point. Regardless of the quality of the climbing, there seem to be a great injustice here, and we should all try to remedy it.

Coming out with the truth about these accusations of bad style is a great start.

IMHO.

darod.
shitzy

Gym climber
La Playa
Oct 26, 2005 - 05:20pm PT
Let me see if I understand all of this.

Some relatively unknown guys went up El Cap really slowly, climbing the early crux pitches of their new route on a low angle part of El Cap, and when they threw their shitz off every day, soon there was a big long streak of poo running down the route they were putting up, and somehow, people just assumed they had poor style?

No wonder they didn't want to talk about it for 30 years!
Somehow, I am not picturing Warren Harding, a hot babe, and a big jug of wine, sitting below a big streak of poo, shouting encouragement at these guys.

How embarrassing, at least they picked up after themselves.

What was in all those haul bags, bibles?
Closer to god by painting an epic stripe of poo in his direction?
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2005 - 05:22pm PT
Lambone writes “Dumbing down the Sea of Dreams to justify your route by hole count is missing the point. The Sea is a natural line of features. The Great Slab is just that, sometimes not meant to be climbed.”

Lambone,
The Sea is an aesthetic masterpiece with much to recommend it which Wings of Steel doesn’t have. Also, I agree that counting holes is not the point. (In retrospect, I wish we would have just done the climb and left counting holes to the second ascent.) I do think that Wings of Steel was aesthetic in its own way and offers a type of climbing not found on any "aesthetic" El Cap route, but that's just me waxing eloquent. I don’t agree that the Great Slab should have never been climbed, although I think that your view is supportable. (Looking at today’s El Cap jigsaw, do you think it was going to stay forever untouched by the Valley locals?)

Lambone: “[Drilling] to link to crack systems is one thing. Doing so from the ground up with no intentions of finding or following crack systems is another thing altogether.“

Wings of Steel is NOT a direct line. We studied the face by telescope and created a line to work up the Slab as easily as possible. A number of significant cracks are linked. I think the climb is a great effort in using what the Slab has to offer to find the best line. (Some might argue that we should have used Yaniro’s two pitches to the left of our line. Perhaps.)

“These two guys above come off not understanding why so many people dissed their route when the answer is obvious. It's a forced line up a black face.”

No one was dissin’ on Yaniro when he worked on the Great Slab, were they?
jack herer

climber
chico, ca
Oct 26, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
" Intifada - VI 5.10 A5 vs
FA: Jim Beyer (solo) December 1988

Details: Well, this route originally rated A6 by Beyer really isn't too bad. There were no holes drilled deeper than 1/4" deep on the first ascent. The second ascent drilled some of the holes deeper to place baby angles. Tim Wagner on the real second ascent filled in those holes. "


Can either of you comment on that?
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 26, 2005 - 06:16pm PT
i nominate lambone to go up wings of steel and set the record straight.
Light&Fast!!!

climber
calgary
Oct 26, 2005 - 06:27pm PT
Damn people! I'm sorta new on this thing and only read a little of it but seems that lambone is the "expert". At least he thinks he is. Goes on about all sorts of stuff, my only questions about this is... Is he qualified to give such an opinion? What has he done that would make him qualified?

I just get the sense from ricardos post that he hasn't done anything real. Which is totally ok, because this forum is mostly represented by the same type. Everyone is at a differnt level and whatever you can climb is cool, it's just that to voice such a strong opinion with limited experiance off the beaten path, seems sort of misguided.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
jack herer,

Okay, I think I’ve done a pretty good job of being reasonable and measured in my posts. However, regarding your assertions on Intifada I’m a little strained to maintain such composure. We’ll see if I can keep it together. In August 1992 I did the second ascent of Intifada, not Tim Wagner. I, or better said “we” as I swung leads with Richard Jensen, did that climb in the best, repeat best, ABSOLUTE PERFECT, style, period! (Ah yes, signs of my composure starting to crack.) We did not make one placement in that climb which if videotaped and available on the Web today could be found to be bogus. There were bat hooks which were indeed shallow and, given the rock quality, quite scary. (Ironically, Richard managed to bypass one of them with a natural placement.) We did not drill out anything. Got that?, anything. At no point did the leader ever carry a drill. It appeared to us that there were drilled holes that had been used for baby angles in the third pitch. I wondered if they could be the result of natural features in the rock, although this seemed unlikely, Fisher Towers notwithstanding. The drilled angles, or what appeared to be drilled angles, were very surprising to us, especially since they occur on one of the easiest pitches. I didn’t lead that pitch and I don’t remember how many there were. I photo-documented at least one of them when I cleaned the pitch and I’d be happy to find the slide and send you a copy.
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
Oct 26, 2005 - 07:18pm PT
Very interesting and cool to get firsthand info on WoS from the FA guys. Dudes: thank you very much for your efforts.

So in a nutshell: a couple of outsiders come in, do what proved to be a stellar job on tough terrain, got dissed for not paying homage to the Valley boyz, then proved that the boyz who did the early Sea repeats were not as saintly as claimed... amazing.

The comments by Rob Slater speak volumes. His statements alone should be all the STFU needed by the boyz.

And somehow 20 years of slander is Richard & Mark's fault because they didn't jump when the critics demanded it? Ridiculous.

It's ironic when rock police are discovered to be crooked cops.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
If you are bitchin', you will have detractors. Perhaps these guys were just too bitchin'?
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Oct 26, 2005 - 11:54pm PT
My post last night may have been a bit out there. But it is interesting to see the spray that goes on. What I am referring to is "I heard sh&& so it ust be sh&&". Thanks you guys (Mark and Richard)for posting. Perhaps PTPP is right, you may have blown people away by your determination and skill.

When one thinks they stand at the top of the heap, or they even think they are part of the heap, it is a difficult thing to see some new guys come by and climb as high as the heap, or higher. Sometimes it is easier for one to focus on ones negatives as opposed to finding ones one faults to work on. But ultimately, we can only control our ownselves. No matter how much we try otherwise. Good job on Wings of Steel.

To the detractors: Climb it or STFU.....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 27, 2005 - 12:47am PT
To Jack Herer:

Like Mark, I'm trying to keep it together on this one. So, let's try to stick with the facts we KNOW, and then extrapolate a bit of logic from there.

First, Climbing magazine publishes articles about bad-ass Jim Beyer in TWO back-to-back issues. Intifada is called "the hardest rock climb in the world" in both issues. Beyer is called possibly the hardest man alive (in my mind, outrageous as long as the Bird is living!), and a route with NO second ascent is "hyped" in the most frothy style possible. There is talk of a new rating system to encompass the insane difficulty level to be found on Intifada, and it is stated REPEATEDLY (including in a later interview with Beyer) that "if you fall from the last pitch you will most likely rip out not only the pitch but every connected anchor below it." This is the "new" meaning of "A6". Not only will a fall result in the death of the leader, but that fall will "pull down the whole house," including anchors.

Wow! Mark and I just HAD to see this for ourselves! Of course, upon finding that the "mad bolters" were in town, the Moab locals would NOT provide a topo or any help whatsoever... no surprise. So, Mark and I spent a day with a telescope drawing our own topo of the route, since with our scope, we could literally see every place a piton had been driven--we could even see the lines of trenches for copperheads in many places.

So, we head up on the route, expecting to be terrified, and we find that the greatest terror of the route is a very active wasp nest right at the anchor of the second pitch! A quick trip to town for some spray eliminates that problem, and THAT "modification" to the route is the ONLY one we make.

As Mark says, we were surprised to find several DEEP angle holes in the third pitch, since that pitch was one of the easiest. Mark did get pictures of those, including pictures of OUR placements which bypass them... pics which he still has, I'm sure.

At any rate, the route up the face peters out, ending most obviously on a ledge belay with bolt anchors. I don't remember the name of that route, but it was a free climb, I think 5.9. At any rate, when Mark reached that ledge, we were sure we must be missing something. The route CLEARLY goes to that ledge, with bolt anchors, and that ledge is two pitches from the absolute summit. It is free climbing from that anchor to the top! Yet, there are bat hooks leading to a short crack ending on that ledge!

So, we're standing there scratching our heads.... Where are the death belays? Where is the insane hooking? There has been ONE short section of (old rating system) A4 lower down, and most of the route has been A2/A3. BOLT anchors? Whaaattt?

After returning home, we write up our report, and, amazingly, Climbing publishes it. Beyer later responds in an interview, saying that he did take that free route for one pitch (using the BOLT anchors!!!), and then traversed back out onto the face (from the ridge the free route follows) in order to get in his final "horror hooking" pitch as the final pitch out on the face.

Now, let's think this through. There are NO, repeat NO death anchors on Intifada. After all the hype, the last "horrible hooking" pitch leads off of a BOLT anchor. The last pitch is absurdly contrived, as there is NO "natural line" reason to head back onto the face from the ridge; the ONLY reason for doing this is to be able to claim a "horrible hooking" last pitch. But the A6 rating is a complete fabrication! ALL of the frothing at the mouth in Climbing magazine was based upon NOTHING more than Beyer's word about what could be found on the route! And, upon a little inspection, we find that ALL of the most grandiose claims about the route are false. EVERY one.

So, who are we going to believe about the holes on the route? Beyer, who has already been caught in his lies? I don't think so. Even the line, "There is no hole deeper than 1/4 inch" is an obvious lie, since the bat hooks were deeper than that, and MOST of the trenched copperhead placements were much deeper than that. The bottom line is that we found a surprisingly easy route, not a single death anchor, holes drilled where they made no sense (including one bat hook hole I was able to bypass by slinging a sloping nubbin), NO "horrible hooking," miles of deeply trenched heads (which were bomber, btw), and I could go on and on. This route is NOTHING like Beyer described it, and I have no doubt that Beyer is the person who drilled those angle holes, rather than to use the flaired cams I used to bypass them.

At any rate, we certainly didn't drill those holes. I only wish now that we had had the sort of scrutiny on Intifada that we had on the Sea, so that people could KNOW that we didn't "rape" Intifada. But, hopefully, we have earned enough credibility on at least THAT front, given our past history, and BEYER certainly has no basis of credibility for his claims--the ONLY claim he has made about the route that I know is true is that the route is on Cottentail Tower. Every other claim he made about the content of the route has been proved false.

Nuff said. Next question?
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 12:54am PT
Thanks Richard for your in depth input as I know it takes quite some time to write up, interesting reading.

I find it hard to believe that those climbing magazines turned you down originally as you are a very good writer.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:30am PT
madbolter, are you %100 sure you made the 2nd ascent of Intifada? Perhaps someone else wen't up and modified the route before you guys and didn't tell anyone?

In your original post you in a round about way asked NOT to be called a liar. (Or, actually, threatened to go away and never come back if someone called you a liar)

But now you are here calling other people liars? What give bro?

Some comments on interesting quotes from above:

i nominate lambone to go up wings of steel and set the record straight.

f*#k that! I'm way to chickenshit on slabs...

plus I am not sure which record you are wanting to set straight? That the route really is hard with a lot of hook moves...yeah no sh#t sherlock!

Is he qualified to give such an opinion? What has he done that would make him qualified?

Does one have to be qualified to have opinions these days? I didn't get the memo.

Look, I am not a detractor, I really don't care about the route one way or another. I never said they were in the wrong or their route should be chopped, or not-repeated or whatever, I said none of those things. I said I don't altogether agree with the style...you gotta problem with that...then bugger off.

I also think it's very cool that we can sit here and have a respectfuil conversation with these two FA'ers and they are willing to participate and contribute. I read their posts carefully, and listened to their perspective...which is altogether valid and honorable. However, I got the feling like each was whinning about people not liking their climbing style. I brought a perspective to the table as to perhaps why some (or many) people may see the route differently then they do themselves...which seems fairly obvious to me, and maybe to them also.

You know what, everybody climbs for their own reasons and expects different rewards. Some styles are for some and some styles for others. Just like some may agree with my opinion and some may not.

Different opinions and perspectives are what make this forum fun, I think, and sometimes when I come upon a thread where everyone is agreeing with eachother adamentlty...I'll often offer up an opposing viewpoint just for kicks, that's my style.

you see, he owns a climbing gym. that sort of makes him a hero to all the n00bs

LOL hahaha....yup you bet...
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:34am PT
Lambone said: "Does one have to be qualified to have opinions these days? I didn't get the memo."

Pretty funny

But, I agree Lambone you did a good job.
toluene*brainblow

Social climber
bag of toxic vapors
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:37am PT
Apparently NOT. Werner's got a huge one. And I'm NOT refering to his dick.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:52am PT
In response to the lastest posts about Wings, I do appreciate the charitable tone very much. I would like to clarify a few points about our attitudes, since some posts are now alluding to that aspect of things.

I won't speak for Mark on these matters, although I know how he feels too. Hopefully, he'll post on this subject also. For myself, I can say that I was a timid child, climbing showed me my character flaws, and climbing has always been a discipline for me to continue to address those flaws. I hope this doesn't sound too "religious" or "metaphysical," because what I'm trying to express is really pretty simple. Basically, I've always been a chickensh#t, that defect has always threatened to run my life, even in everyday affairs, and climbing has been an ongoing means by which to keep the chicken at bay in my life as much as possible.

So, I have NEVER thought of myself or my climbing as worthy of special attention, or "bitchen" or anything like that. Now, I'm not trying to "sound humble" (thereby revealing pride). I think I've come to a fairly balanced view of myself (I should have by now, since I'm 46 and have a Ph.D. in philosophy!). I know I have done some noteworthy things, but MANY others have done FAR more noteworthy things! The Bird on Cerro Torre, for example, which is just ONE of his many awesome feats. When I say I've always climbed "for myself," I mean that climbing for me has been primarily FOR confronting the deep black hole in my soul.

What is the point of "hard" anyway? Why is "harder" a valuable attribue of climbing routes (all other things being equal)? I think it is what makes climbing superior to all other sports. Hard climbing has an element of very intentional risk, and that risk-taking is moment-by-moment and in your face in a way that jumping out of a plane, for example, is not. Now, I'm not dissing other extreme sports. All I'm saying is that climbing has for me allowed, even encouraged, a level of inner contemplation that has been simply amazing. I can look at a placement and have the time to think, "If this thing blows, I'm probably dead. Am I up for dead right now?" And then I get to think through the meaning of life, and so on (which might explain why Mark and I are so damned slow--we're contemplating more than we're climbing). :-)

Anyway, I think Wings was a great route... for Mark and I, because it did for us JUST what we both needed at that time. Like Mark, I think the route is reasonably repeatable and has other valuable attributes for the climbing community, and we DID care about the quality of the route we put up. However, it is also true that thinking about other's perceptions of the route was VERY secondary to me (I'm a fairly selfish climber insofar as I do it FOR that internal dialog)... that is until everything erupted the way it did. Then, suddenly, what everybody else thought became very important.

But for me, the route has always been the same in my mind, and some of the "great" things about that route were VERY private at the time, like looking a yet another micro-flake and thinking, "CRAP! Isn't it about time for another rivet? Do I HAVE to try that thing? I'm SICK of falling! CRAAAAPPP! But, it's there, so I have to stand on it." And then forcing myself to give the flake a try. And that FORCING is, for me, the essence of climbing--forcing myself to not ACT like the chickenshit I fundamentally am inside!

I also LOVE just being up there. It is like being on another planet. Everything is so RAW and real. Watching a falcon fly slowly past, almost close enough to touch... and then seeing a falcon stoop down the wall, sounding like a dreaded falling rock... such things are simply awesome. Maybe part of why I'm slower than most is just that I don't have any great sense of hurry. I know that's how a wall is going to be for me, so I bring enough stuff to be able to take my time. I like to quit early some days, just watch the colors change on the rocks, watch the little red mites scurrying around, and just BE THERE. I HOPE there are some of you out there who are not so jaded by the endless push that "faster is better" that you cannot resonate with what I'm describing.

At a very fundamental level, I see no greatness in any of the climbing I have done. That's just not what it has ever been about to me. I love the being there, yet, on hard climbs I also always feel a sort of desperation, and the chicken is always threatening to win! Knowing myself as I do, there's nothing "bitchen" about it. I don't have genuine courage... I have merely developed a strong will.

Wings was hard for me; it might not be hard for somebody else. That sort of thing is a very subjective evaluation. However, I guess the point of this forum topic HAS been to discuss as best we can the OBJECTIVE features of the route, and we have always told the truth about those! For me, I'm just always trying to not act like a chickensh#t--I don't know what others will find on Wings of Steel.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:59am PT
That's a very cool post. I think we can all relate to your perspective there in some way.

I especialy like this quote!

"If this thing blows, I'm probably dead. Am I up for dead right now?"
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 27, 2005 - 02:29am PT
Lambone, I have NO problem with your posts... let me get that out right up front. Of course, I don't know you at all, so I can't speak to some of the things others are saying about you....

I'm not SURE that we did the second ascent of Intifada, although I'm not SURE that I have hands either. But, I'm reasonably confident. I think we did the route two or three months after the second of the two Climbing mag articles about the route; Mark is more detail-oriented, so he probably knows exactly, and I don't remember for sure about that. But it was shortly thereafter, and the route hadn't had a published second at time of publication.

Trust me, I don't take calling someone a liar lightly, and I'm not calling Beyer a liar about the angle holes. I don't know who drilled them. However, Jack Herer suggests that Beyer claims there were no holes deeper than 1/4-inch, and that simply isn't true, regardless of the drilled angles. But, that's not the reason I called Beyer a liar--all his major claims about the route are flagrantly false. So, my point was simply to say that Beyer has no credibility in my mind about ANY claims he makes about the route, including whether or not he drilled any angle holes. He has lied about other things and been caught in the lies, so he is the prime suspect in my mind about the angle holes as well.

It is true that somebody else MIGHT have gotten up the route before Mark and I, although it's unclear to me why they wouldn't have said anything about that (of course, unless they are hiding a rape). I only know that Mark and I didn't drill the angle holes, and my "liar" comments were reserved for Beyer's PUBLISHED claims about the route that are clearly false.

Nobody likes being called a liar, that's for sure. So, it's best not to lie, and then you don't risk getting caught in a lie. I believe in giving people ALL the benefit of the doubt UNTIL I catch them misrepresenting or lying--people did NOT treat Mark and I that way regarding Wings, and THAT is my complaint regarding being called and treated like a liar. But, I've never published crap, either.

Regarding your "stylistic" posts, I'm not even sure what "style" means anymore. The issues most hotly debated about Wings of Steel had to do with things other than "style" as I tend to think about it. The issues seemed to be about quite objective facts: bat hooks? a route we chopped behind ourselves? "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute?" a "two hundred yard streak of feces and trash" below our bivies? And so on. People have "deduced" opinions about our "style" from their take on these "facts," and so it seems to me that the "stylistic" issues are really just inferences from factual issues. Regarding almost all of the "facts," our critics have been in error, and SOME of them have intentionally spread as "facts" that which they KNEW were in error.

If by "style" we're talking about taking a LONG time to work out an intricate and apparently "blank" line, then I can certainly understand why many would decry such a "style". I have no problem with that at all. I am a philosopher by trade, so I relish an open and reasonable (even "heated," but with emphasis on "reasonable") discussion about "style" and ethics. But, if you read the early posts on this forum topic, you find "style" conflated with ridiculous "factual" claims. Mark and I have tried to set the record straight about the actual facts, so maybe a discussion of "style" can be more productive now... but I would love to have "style" defined first of all.

Thanks for your posts!
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 27, 2005 - 02:55am PT
"a route we chopped behind ourselves?"

is the only thing I had ever heard about Wings of Steel before this thread. I though that was quite odd and egotistical...or something...it almost made me angry.

Glad to hear that is not true.

I still don't know if I'd ever attempt a route of that sort, but it does sound like exiting climbing. And it sounds like you wen't by the old moto, "if it holds I have to use it." hooking your way up that thing, and that is prowd style for sure.

I wasn't there in those days, but I can easily imagine being in the meadow looking up at your big camp wondering what the heck you were doing up there...kinda like Chongos hanging monstrosity on the Sea several years ago. I can see how the rumors would start flying.

As far as Beyer, closest I came to him was seeing some of his handy work up on Zodiac two years ago...a bunch of bolts beat with a hammer. While I agreed that the bolts ddn't belong there, I didn't see much good in bashing them into a pulp and leaving the mess behind. Trying to make some sort of statement I guess...

Anyway, cheers
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 27, 2005 - 03:11am PT
matt ..

only reason i posted that comment was because these dudes have already had enogh questions lunged at them .. -- its time to give them some props for what sounds to me like a ballsy f*#ken route ..

Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 27, 2005 - 03:15am PT
I didn't ask them any questions dude...
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2005 - 10:02am PT
I'd like to preface this post with: Not me!


So, who's going to do the second ascent?


I know this thread must have gotten some of the hardcore wall masters revved up a little bit. I think it would exciting just knowing some folks are taking a shot at it. I'm thinking the weather window may be too far over the horizon for this season. Maybe next October, early? Cooler temps, historically dry time of the year, looks easy to retreat the slab in case of another October 2004 type of storm...
KarlP

Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
Oct 27, 2005 - 12:04pm PT
anyone got a revised link to Mr Falkensteins images?
Burt

climber
Sin City
Oct 27, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
Ammon go send man! Nobody likes the hooks like our boy Amdog! Sounds like a sick route, nothing like hooking for days on a slab! Yikes! Nice route your guys and I hope that some people might finally see that.
Burt
Ammon

Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
Oct 27, 2005 - 04:47pm PT

Cool. It’s nice to see the first ascentionists posting up. Like I said, I only know what I've "heard" and see from the topo. I wasn't around at the time either.

Did you guys draw the topo? Is that the best one available in the Donny Reid book?

I guess there's nothing left to do but go up there and see first hand what it's all about, huh?

Cheers, Ammon
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:03pm PT
What makes most any movement actually move in a more enlightened direction is that folks in said movement are fluent with, and to some extent, part of, previous phases of the movement. Especially in a technical sport like aid climbing, a person and the sport is best served by someone who goes out tryng to establish new routes to have first proved themselves on a whole stack of established routes--otherwise, you end up with throw-away efforts that completely go against the grain of what's acceptable and what is not.

I might be wrong, but the authors of Wings of Steel were not big wall veterans of much experience. hey surely must have done at least the Nose and Column and Leaning Tower and so forth; but I suspec had they taken the time to repeat a handful of the hard aid lines of the day, Wings of Steel would have looked different. As is I have to wonder what it contributed of the history of wall climbing. And moreover, if El Capitan could talk, what would they have said of the route and those who put it up??

JL
pc

Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:25pm PT
That's the usual model but what if...

For example Charlie Parker, great great sax player, who showed up on the scene in the 30's playing very "wild stuff". He wasn't accepted for that but stuck around and "conformed" for a while...Then gradually started doing his own thing again. This time it was accepted and well respected. What does that say about Charlie's early work? Still brilliant but out of progression?
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:42pm PT
One crucial point about Yardbird Parker--he didn't come from nowhere. He was very much part of the prevailing movement BEFORE he started doing things his own way.

For the record (the floowing is cribbed from athe web), Parker had his first music lessons in the local public schools; he began playing alto saxophone in 1933 and worked in semi-professional groups before leaving school in 1935 to become a full-time musician. From 1935 to 1939, he worked mainly in Kansas City with a wide variety of local blues and jazz groups. Like most jazz musicians of his time, he developed his craft largely through practical experience: listening to older local jazz masters, acquiring a traditional repertory, and learning through the process of trial and error in the competitive Kansas City bands and jam sessions.

The key here is that Parker "acquired a traditional repertory," meaning he was fluent on what was going on. Once he mastered the accepted way of doing things, THEN he moved beyond it.

My question is whether or not the guys who authored Wings of Steel had ever mastered or even acquired a "traditional repertory."

JL
pc

Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:53pm PT
True. I'm just counter modelling here. Let's assert that some of Parker's early solos were "distasteful" to his peers and the masses because they'd never heard stuff like that before. Once he'd hung for awhile and played with the "in" crowd, they began to appreciate his style, etc. Doesn't that imply that you/they could go back and "re-appreciate" his early solo work?

As an artist/musician I like looking at things with a fresh perspective. Sometimes if you only look at something once you've built the standard "tools of the trade" you aren't open to the same leaps.
pc

Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
BTW I love the Bird connection here...
jeff benowitz

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 05:56pm PT
John, John, John what is with this juvenile logic from someone with your educational background in the history of climbing. I would point out that the blokes made the fifth ascent of sea of dreams, but its not relevant. What is relevant is the fact that some people are trend setters. For example, Jed Kallen Brown, a 20 year old kid, climbed a new route on kichatna spire for his first wall. Is that a shame, should he have climbed the south face of the column first? My third wall was the second ascent of Jesus built my hotrod. We didn't own a drill than and don't own one now. should we as kids not have been allowed to climb the route cause it was hard? or should we commend people for climbing beyond there experience? was Einstein part of a movement? or did he work in a patent office when he came up with his ground break ideas about relativity? You can knock someone for a drill job, but since you nor I have done the route, we don't really know what kind of drilling was done. But to knock someone for doing something hard before there "time" is poor at best and stupid at worst. Your bit gives the impression the blokes did something unacceptable, yet you fail to mention what, which doesn't give them a chance to defend themselves. What's the beef? IE spell it out John. What did they do on wings of steel that was unacceptable to you? How do you know they did it? If your purely twisted because they didn't do what you though was enough hard routes first, do you have a list that I should climb before I put up a first in Yosemite? which I've done-without once again carrying a bolt kit-can you saint john holder of the philosphy torch claim that you put a big wall in Yosemite without even bringing a bolt kit? Those who have not sinned should cast the first bolt or some such.......
on a side note. hey ammon, hope all is well, missed you in august, getting surgery over christmas, so see you around the stone(s) in the future.
Landgolier

climber
the flatness
Oct 27, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
Now THIS is a thread.

Ammon, if you do make a run at it, I have it on good authority that a list of guys who are willing to help hump loads to the base is posted near the left side of the screen on this very thread.

('cept me, I'll be in Red Rocks)
mike hartley

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
Scanning my collection of quotes for an unrelated reason and came across this gem, which seems fitting for this thread:

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt before investigation. Herbert Spencer
wildone

climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
Oct 27, 2005 - 07:21pm PT
True. And I want some "El Cap Pics" of the send.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 27, 2005 - 07:24pm PT
Largo (JL) wrote:
> I might be wrong, but the authors of Wings of Steel were not big wall veterans of much experience. hey surely must have done at least the Nose and Column and Leaning Tower and so forth; but I suspec had they taken the time to repeat a handful of the hard aid lines of the day, Wings of Steel would have looked different.

I don't agree. What would repeating The Shield, Pacific Ocean Wall, Sea of Dreams, etc. change about how they climbed the slab? It takes the low-angle hooking like they did. No techniques from the Shield Roof, Triple Cracks, etc. apply. Plus as Richard noted, they might have even learned bad habits from the Sea of Dreams regarding drilled hooking. All the failed repeat attempts on Wings of Steel have proven that it is no mere bolt ladder put up by unskilled climbers. And the time it takes to repeat a "handful fo the hard aid lines of the day" is a lot to ask. Plus, in 1981, the yellow (1982) Meyers guide with all the big wall topos did not exist. Maybe in 1982 or later, repeating the hard routes would have been a more accessible option. It takes a dream and a vision to go out there and get on a hard FA without the comforts of knowing you're a big-time wall veteran. That is something to aspire to, not a valid basis for criticism from the peanut gallery. Unless of course their route had bolts/holes next to usable features, which is quite clearly not the case.

Others have pointed out the basis for criticism of the route is that the slab is too blank and requires "too many" holes. Richard Jensen has answered this criticism nicely - the yardstick of a given number of holes (145 for Wings of Steel, according to Charles Cole's article in ~1986) does not apply as well to the largely (but not completely) crackless slab. It's easy to understand the opposition by the valley locals, expecting another potential Wall of Early Morning Light drillfest or even worse. Plus maybe the perception of Jensen and Smith as inexperienced outsiders, or "taking forever". But we've since seen the 40+ day FAs and large hanging camps of the Gallego brothers, and prior to Wings of Steel there was Kroger and Davis, relative unknowns on the FA of the Heart Route. So we are finally able to get the right perspective on Wings of Steel.

Thanks for posting all the details, Richard and Mark! Us aid climbing history buffs and occasional El Cap climbers who missed the mags and slideshows at the time have wondered what the story was!

On the topo (1987 Meyers&Reid guide), the only mention of bathooks is on the p13 traverse to Aquarian. How did that get on the topo? Does it really just mean Leeper pointed? I realize that sometimes when (wrong) things get into print they "take on a life of their own", and take Richard's statements that no bathooks were used as the truth. I'm just curious about the published version of the topo.

As Ammon said, is there a better topo? Published in 1983 Climbing? Maybe Greg can check his Climbing mag collection? If Richard or Mark mail me a copy of the original topo, I will scan it and put it on my website. (Not that I am looking to repeat it; I'm light, but I wouldn't stand up to the falls - um, because I'm *light*!).
darod

Trad climber
New York
Oct 27, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
Thanks JL for giving your two cents. Your post however, sheds great light on regards what pissed people off back when WOS was put up. It actually just confirm what was obvious: they didn't pay their respects, they didn't prove themselves to the "community" FIRST. How dare they!!??

Jeff, Clint, I couldn't agree more with your comments.

Pretty transparent I think, lots of local pride (the wrong kind), that's all.

darod.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 27, 2005 - 09:21pm PT
I sit in Largo's camp.

While not to disrespect their climb, I think it is foolhardy to jump on a big wall with a big bag of bolts ensuring your sucess.

Perhaps they did utalize their hooks to the best of their ability...regardless...like the great one said, "it's carrying your courage in a rucksack."

"What would El Cap say?" is an awesome question.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Oct 27, 2005 - 09:43pm PT
i remember living in kansas in the early 90's. I was misguided having been part of an SLC crowd in the late 70s thru the 80's having the opportunity to climb with Mugs, G. Lowe and others.

Misguided? When I learned that guys like Anker, Shaw and others were doing big walls in a day in Yos I thought what the hey, I can do that! I used to climb with those guys! My first Yos Wall was NIAD while training in my garage. Next was Salathe in a day. A middle aged guy wih a mortage from the midlands. I used to hate those adds "Your not in Kansas anymore". BS.

I remember at a slideshow party a bunch of KC climbers giving me sh#t because I had claimed to do such a thing. The slides pretty much shut them up.

While I did not do anything really out of the ordinary or extreme, it was for me and I am proud of those ascents.

Lambone and largo, I humbly disagree. The paved path is not always the best path for everyone. If it were, innovation and firsts would be doled out based upon ones "standing" as it were.

I believe that is the way it used to be in communist russia.

Great thread and thanks to everyone.
jeff benowitz

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
"What would el cap think" is classic. Such a statement implies that you know what el cap would think, and that el cap would agree with you, which is also classic. Here's my two cents on "What would el cap think"

People like to hear themselves speak. To have their written words read. Painter’s ink etchings for others to view. A house built by an architect is not referred to as a home until someone moves in. Following this paradigm, in the micro-cosim of the world of climbing, a first ascent is often not recognized unless it has been witnessed, photographed, or written about.
Mountaineers are so accustomed to climbers speaking of their deeds, that it has been assumed in the past that a route and even a peak (in a few cases) haven’t been climbed because no one has made public pronouncements about the ascent. The following example of self-involved egocentric climbing actually occurred.
In the late 1980’s a party of aspiring climbers headed into the remote Revelation mountains of South Central Alaska. Their goal was a peak named the Angel, that had been attempted decades earlier by the famous mountaineer David Roberts. After much trial and tribulations the team succeeded in climbing the peak, only to find rappel slings on the summit tower.
Returning to “civilization” they were indignant that they had risked their lives and spent a small fortune to climb a prize that had unbeknownst to them had already been claimed. The second ascent party even laid a verbal assault against the folks--they tracked them down by finding out who had flown into the range recently--who had climbed the peak that stated they should have told people about their climb. The second ascentists claimed that they had some sort of fundamental right to know of the peak’s ascent. Tom Waters and his friends had climbed the Angel the year before, but felt no need to announce it to the world. The climbing was hard and challenging for them, but they climbed for personal reasons, not public. Mountains are not concerned about ascents or ascentists. Such is purely a human concern.
yo

climber
NOT Fresno
Oct 27, 2005 - 10:32pm PT
Dogpiling Largo. I won't join in.


I don't know, he's talking about the progression of the "movement," meaning big wall climbing and the aid community. He's not saying toe the line. His generation was pretty uppity, but they didn't come out of nowhere.


Did Mark and Richard have a blast doing their route? For sure.

Did it set a new standard for difficulty? No, because it wasn't accepted when put up, and now that window has passed.

Did it expand aid's possibilities? Maybe, that you can get up slabs. Again, was it accepted? No. Is it accepted? Still no.

Did the community benefit as a whole? Obviously no. Ill will still abounds.




Could the answer to all these have been yes?
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Oct 27, 2005 - 11:12pm PT
Dogpile on, boys. What I have written and still write is nothing but my opinion--not the voice of God or any such hogwash--and everyone is obviously free to express their own. In asking what El Cap might think about the ascent does not imply that I know the answer, otherwise I would have provided the answer.

Nobody needs permission to climb anything. Not from me. Not from anyone. I never asked for permission or endorcement from anyone to climb anything at any time. But I was sensitive, at least to myself and my peers, that we conducted ourselves to the best of our abilities in a way that did the Yosemite climber proud, meaning we tried to push things as best we could because we felt there was a tradition to uphold, and if possible, advance.

At that time (70s), most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives, so we built on the past and tried to sustain the tradition. Elitist? Well, we tried to maintain an elite standard. That's what gave the thing meaning and direction.

There's nothing "wrong" with breaking with tradition--look at the sport climbing revolution. But sport climbing opened up a whole new world, and I simply wonder if Wings of Steel broke with tradition in a way that advanced the sport in the round. It's an interesting question, and one that everyone has to answer for themselves.

Lastly, I always felt that when you do a big new route with a lot of drilling, it's not just about you, the guys who make the first ascent. I still feel that way.

JL
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 11:16pm PT
Jeff said: "What would el cap think" is classic. Such a statement implies that you know what el cap would think and that el cap would agree with you ...."

Not so Jeff, that’s really what you are trying to imply not what Largo’s real question was. Such a question is actually presented to the owner of material nature the real doer.

The self is merely the witness to the movements of material nature. Although the self animates material nature, it becomes overwhelmed by material nature's influence and thinks itself to be the doer of acts that are in actuality performed by material nature. For example, the self animates material nature by the force of desire and then material nature consumes the self in an illusory world of misidentification.

This might be to way out there for most people to comprehend? But that’s ok too.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:00am PT
To Clint Cummins:
The Meyers/Reid guide is correct about the bathooks connecting to Aquarian Wall on the last pitch. There are, I think, 10 bathooks getting across that traverse. I always tend to conflate "the route" with "the slab," since ongoing jibes like "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute" keep reminding me that everybody who was/is pissed off was/is pissed off about what we did on the great slab. So, what I have always meant when I talk about "the route" is the slab. Notice that not one person on this topic has even mentioned the 400 feet of overhanging copperhead seams getting from the slab to Aquarian Wall. Nobody tends to think about that part of the "route" as any issue, and so I just didn't think about that traverse either. But, to be as precise in speaking as possible, there are no bathooks on the slab; as is clearly stated on our original topo, and as all published topos show, there are some bathooks on the short traverse connecting Wings to Aquarian.

Now, since using bathooks was not our practice on the route, it bears explaination WHY we used them there just to exit our route into Aquarian Wall. At that point in the route we had three rivets left (I guess we didn't bring a big enough load of "courage in our rucksack," so to speak), we had dropped our sharpening stone somewhere during the last third of the slab (so all of our drill bits were really dull and would barely drill), and so we couldn't drill a ladder of full-depth bolts just to get ourselves off of our route and across to Aquarian (keep in mind that we were down to 600 calories per day by that point). The wall is overhanging there, so a lengthy pendulum was not an option (note a short tension traverse at the end of p13). Thus, our three rivets went into that traverse (one for the tension traverse) and the other placements are bathooks. I hope this explains our thinking and the existence of the anomolous bathooks.

To Ammon:
All topos I've seen are adapted from the original topo we drew in 1982. Our topo showed every hole (with 'r' for rivet and 'x' for bolt), so our topo required some adaptation to fit into a guidebook format. On the published topos, most of the X's that appear within pitches are zinc/aluminum (zamak style) rivets with button heads. Some pitch ratings have been downgraded either because guidebook editors assumed we overrated things or because ratings in general have deflated over time. The Meyers/Reid topo is plenty good enough to get you there.

You will want to a take a bunch of #2 heads (at least 40). We weren't smart enough in '82 (neither was anybody else) to realize that heads should ONLY be made from stainless steel cable, so the heads we didn't want to destroy getting out are surely JUNK by now!

Every anchor has a 3/8" bolt and so should still be ok. The bolts in pitches (and the other bolts at anchors) were 1/4" but with button heads, well placed, and with Leeper hangers (which were the best out there at the time). But after all these years they may be becoming suspect (we have personally broken two Leeper hangers over the years--not our own, but ones existing on other routes).

If you want to email me directly, I'll thrutch around to see if I can come up with an original topo to scan and send you.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:04am PT
Clint,
Regarding “[there’s] mention of bathooks on the traverse to Aquarian. How did that get on the topo?”
The topo is accurate. There are no bat hooks in Wings of Steel throughout the Great Slab or the crack systems above the Overseer Roof. Wings of Steel comes to an end 50 feet right of Aquarian Wall. There is a 13 hole ladder ending in a tension traverse to join Aquarian. Ten of these holes (as I recall) are bat hooks because we were out of rivets. This short traverse has no natural placements and doesn’t require any skill beyond the basic movement between aid placements. We counted the 13 holes in our hole count, although the climb is basically over at the anchor starting the traverse.
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
Oct 28, 2005 - 10:08am PT
I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.

Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...

IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".

Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one.

I am still waiting to hear why the Sea's drill enhancements are somehow mo' betta than WoS's drill enhancements. Oh, I know why: because famous locals did the drilling. OK.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 28, 2005 - 11:24am PT
Madbolter-

This all seems like a case of a ongoing, 20 year "protesteth too much," situation if you ask me. I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.

In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day.

Reading your posts about Wings of Steel, I sense an underlying arrogance:

"What we found, and what we have ALWAYS found (which is WHY I had no intention of devoting any more time to this forum after my first post), is that NOBODY would actually HEAR us or believe us. "

--how do you know? There seems to be more effort proselitizing the above statement than realizing that in reality no one really cared that much. The people who messed with your fixed ropes were definitely not the cutting edge Valley climbers of the day.

"we spent ENDLESS hours attempting dialog with people in the Valley, and we spent YEARS afterward at major climbing areas all over California explaining ourselves to the MANY people who would gather around to badger us"

--people only gather around if you call them, if it was a route truly for yourself, why talk about it at all?

"Mark and I quit counting aborted attempts on the route after about fifteen. "

--this seems like an example of caring more for the aftermath of the route than the "experience" itself.

Furthermore, is the name of the book promoting the climb really "Wings of Steel: A record 39 days on the face of El Capitan?" Spare me if so, a clear attempt to impress the non-climbing community. I'm amazed at how the general public are targeted with publicity about big numbers of days spent on a wall climb. Aquarian, right next door to your route, got climbed on the FA in four days. A lot more impressive, in my book.

Also, you keep quoting Slater as the reference of the fact that your route was at the top of the scale in difficulty. Slater was one of the best all round climbers of the day, close to the caliber of Alex Lowe, to be sure, but wall climbing wasn't his strongest suit. He rated a pitch A5+ on the Sheep Ranch,an unheard of grade at the time. I saw him when he and Barbella strolled into Camp 4, "Hardest route on El Cap!," was the first thing he said to me. When Xaver climbed that pitch, he thought that pitch A4/A4+ and even skipped a rivet (he missed it without seeing it until he was above it). And for sure, Xaver wasn't in the game of competive numbers just for the sake of promoting himself. And I found some of the other A4+ and A5 pitches moderate for the grade, A4 tops.

I sense you are trying to evangelize your cause so that people will finally believe that what you did was cutting edge and deserves "credit" for being so. Let it stand for itself if you really believe that.

Then you talk about being "silent" for 10 years. Writing a book isn't silence. It could be a good book about a wild personal experience, I don't know, I haven't read it, but gimme a break about "silence."

Lastly, from a climber's perspective, I'm a bit confused about a seeming contradiction about your drilling up there. There's a comment:

"if you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt."

--but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.

Perhaps if you let up a little about convincing the climbing community of your "visionary" route (personally, I don't see it as such), you will reap more benefit of the personal experience itself, which is what I am sure you ultimately earnest about, and believe in your heart.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Oct 28, 2005 - 11:42am PT
Johnkerry wrote:

"I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.

Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...

IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".

Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one."

Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine.

JL
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
Oct 28, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
"...Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine..."

Exactly. I think I screwed up the bold/quoting in my post. Didn't mean to make it look like it was all quoting you or that the remainder of the post was your intent.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 28, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
"...I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.

In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day."

yeah, yeah...

a more concise version of what I was trying to say in my orginal posts. Per haps I am "not qualified to have an opinion," but surely duece and Largo are.

And I don't think their opions are based on the fact that MArk and Richard were not part of the "Camp 4 crew," I think it's an unwritten rule that you repect local standards and traditions at any climbing area that you are a new player in.

For instance, you wouldn't see me toting a power drill and rap bolting any of the hundreds of unclimbed faces in Castle Crags state park...although the territory is ripe for the picking. Because that's not how things get climbed in the Crags.

Rock Cops, sure maybe so...so what? What would our crags be like without rock cops?
nickh

climber
St. Louis, MO
Oct 28, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
Forgive me JL if I am not remembering well, or I am out of context in some way, but I have been entertained and inspired more than once by tales of your youthful misadventures on southern California boulders.

Weren't you introduced to climbing by the dogmatic "outing clubs" at the time, though you came to reject their rigidity?

Weren't the behaviors of you and your crew frowned upoun by those in the clubs?

Weren't you considered to have not payed your dues when you tied in below the testpieces of the day?

In the end you and your cotemporaries pushed the level of climbing far above what it had been. Would you have been able to do this if you spent your time working your way up through the ranks of the clubs "properly", instead of "goofing off on the boulders".

Is you situation not-comparable to those of the FAists of Wings of Steel?

Nick
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Oct 28, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
No harm done, John. It's just a strange thing to think of our group in terms of "Rock Police." We all considered ourselves rebels with no ideas of ownership--of the Valley and the standards and the new route potentials. I can grasp folks not wanting to account to anyone, or any standard, or any tradition. For myself, I was much the same, but I learned over time that this method tended to leave me in a vacume where I could no longer recognize my own bullsh#t. To safeguard against that, to keep myself honest, it was always helpful to have any new routes "peer reviewed," much as a scientist has his experiments confirmed by others to vouchsafe that they are real, or not. The peer review adds nothing to the original experience, and any resulting "fame" is so small (or was back then) as to be meaningless.

I guess it's confusing for a climbing team to come out of nowhere, do a big route, then sort of demand or at any rate expect fantastic reviews from the core climbing comunity to which they were, by choice, never really a part of. In fact such a review would be forthcoming if the route caught fire as a classic. But in their defense, perhaps Wings of Steel was wrongfully bad rapped from the get-go and folks have steered clear believing--corectly or otherwise--that the line was a contrived sham and a carny show. One thing is for sure--leading aid climbers have not been scared off the thing.

What we need is for some credible team to go up there and repeat he thing so we have some concrete data to go on. Till that happens we're all just blowing smoke.

JL
jeff benowitz

climber
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:09pm PT
Werner my disagreement with “what elcap thinks” has less to do with
the base philosophy that everything has a consciousness, and more
to do with my personal view on relationships with such. Your relationship with
g-d is personal as is my relationship with “the mountains.” In the same way that it irks folks when someone says, “Your going to hell because you don’t believe what I believe.”, I would never state that the mountains I have a personal relationship with (plutonic as it maybe) are passing judgment on others actions. I guess it goes even deeper, to the basis of my upbringing. Jews don’t have a heaven or hell. There is no such in the old testament-ask a highly educated Rabbi if you disagree-. I was taught not even to say the name of g-d, to do such would be disrespect. As my dad used to say, “Jeff g-d is none of your business, cleaning your room and helping your sister with her math, that is your business.” Does that make sense? Oh if anyone is wondering, Yes "us jews" own all the banks(so be nice) and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.
the Fet

Trad climber
Loomis, CA
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
First of all: Best Thread Ever! IMO.

It's interesting to me that after the WEML people still think you can dictate another climbers style. Length of time, amount of gear used, publicity, etc. is a personal choice that no other person can really specify. There is no pefect style (except a shoeless, chalkless, onsight free solo) so you do the best you can. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

IMO the hole count is possibly justified dependent on the quality of the climbing. A fantastic line full of difficult, aesthetic climbing can justify the use of holes on blank sections. No one ever repeated the line so we have no idependent opinions as to the quality of the climbing. Yet the route was trashed without this vital info (we are all just blowing smoke as Largo says).

Did the FA party expect accolades or are they just upset their route/effort was dissed without any real inspection? Maybe both?

Did the community at the time trash their effort without giving it a chance? Did the FA party charge in and do a route without establishing themselves first and give it a controversial name creating animosity? Maybe both?

One thing for sure IMO, anyone who trashes/craps on someone elses gear, uses violence, smashes hangers instead of trying to cleanly remove bolts, or chops a route without climbing it first is motivated by ego, not service to the climbing community.
yo

climber
NOT Fresno
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
Yes "us jews" own all the banks and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.

hahaha

Jeff, two questions:
1. Is your middle name really Apple?
2. If so, does it chap yer ass that Gyneth Paltrow named her girl kid Apple?



What's the current +/- on Ammon's second ascent in a push?

I say 22:30.
WBraun

climber
Oct 28, 2005 - 02:46pm PT
“This science of ethics was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the ascensionists understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore this science appears to be lost."

The eternal rules exist to guide us to the proper understanding that will transcend our mundane limitations and faults to establish the eternal laws which guard the absolute truth.

Powers that we are witnessing at hand on this subject matter go far beyond the people involved here; there is no room for mundane speculation.

Thus we see now the all too familiar hypocrisy and quarrel that abounds in our present age.

Best wishes for the continuation of the debate and the second ascent :-)
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 28, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
deuce4-
Responding to “’If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.’ --but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.”

Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean. On the Sea, for instance, enhanced meant some kind of hole drilled diagonally behind a flake or into a sloping ledge (at a critical point on Hook or Book, on a 45 degree slope!). Such holes were designed to take the point of a taper-ground Chouinard/Black Diamond Cliffhanger. On Wings of Steel “enhanced” means that we chipped out a crystal at the back of a ledge so the point of a Leeper Narrow could rest at the back the ledge. Typically only a single crystal was chipped out, although on some larger ledges where there was a crust of decomposing rock we chipped out several crystals in order to find solid rock. Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
jeff benowitz

climber
Oct 28, 2005 - 07:01pm PT
Whoa M smith. In a lot of people's book every time the drill touches the rock it should be in the hole count. Now I'm starting to understand the "situation." I know it might be semantics, but if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count. Just cause you made a body weight hole, instead of a ½ inch bolt doesn’t change the count. Sure it makes it “harder” and scarier to chip a hook instead of drill a bolt, but either way you are bringing the rock down to your level. How many times did the drill come out? Be honest, or is the number to high to remember? Sorry for lambasting ya John, tar and feather the blokes for all I care.
atchafalaya

Trad climber
California
Oct 28, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
this thread sounds like when someone tells their girlfriend "what I meant to say was"... when its already way too late to say anything that is gonna mean anything

was that unintelligible?
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 28, 2005 - 07:25pm PT
It's commendable that the "enhanced" flakes look natural, but of course, that's what Jardine was doing when he was pushing the free variant up on the Nose, and that wasn't acceptable by the norm then, either, never has been.

In aid, of course, it has always been an occasional technique to break off a loose flake or something to make a placement, but think about it en masse, and you may be coming closer to the questions people were raising at the time.

You can be sure that Grossman never "enhanced" any of his hooks without acknowledging it on the lower pitches of Jolly Rodger, steeper and just as thin--the epitome of difficult natural hooking (emphasis on natural).

Don't get me wrong, I am sure Wings of Steel involves terrifying hooking ptiches, but there's a big difference in the experience if you have a drill and/or chisel by your side and are willing to enhance to your level.

In aid, many people seem to mistake the end result with the experience itself. The purpose of the resulting number, for example, is really only to warn your friends what they can expect, not to announce to the world of your prowess.

I always thought that the left side of El Cap slab will go free someday.
Gene

climber
Oct 28, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
Madbolter1 says:
“We did NOT use bat hooks on the route. At all. Period.”
Unambiguous.

Later Madbolter1 says:
“The Meyers/Reid guide is correct about the bathooks connecting to Aquarian Wall on the last pitch. {SNIP} So, what I have always meant when I talk about "the route" is the slab.”
I guess it's how you define the route.

MSmith avoids bathooks with a second definition of the route:
“There are no bat hooks in Wings of Steel throughout the Great Slab or the crack systems above the Overseer Roof. Wings of Steel comes to an end 50 feet right of Aquarian Wall.”


MSmith states:
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean.
Those pesky definitions.

Even though I think it would be cool if WoS were a maligned but masterful testpiece, I can see why some have a problem understanding and accepting the claims of the FA party.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 28, 2005 - 10:07pm PT
Wow, a lot has happened while I was at work today! I won't be responding at this point, though, as it's the Sabbath. So that people don't think I'm pushing my religion in everybody's faces, I'll cast it this way: Rather than to be accused of inconsistency again, "Soooo, you won't CLIMB on the Sabbath, but you'll post debate ABOUT climbing on the Sabbath..." I'll forego responding to some of the ridiculous, uncharitable posts until sometime on Sunday evening. 'Till then....
Russ Walling

Social climber
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Oct 28, 2005 - 10:15pm PT
I really hate to do it.... this thread is already taking half a day to load, but:

WosS FAist writes: Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.

This is the fatal flaw with the "method". If I can't tell which flakes have been ENHANCED, then am I allowed to ENHANCE my hook placements in order to do the route? How do I know I am even doing the correct route? Do I need to spend full days out on lead with a lupe just to get a legitimate ascent? Here is where it is total bullsh#t. I have been hosed by missing bat hook holes on a route and ended up bailing, only to come back to finish the route with a new topo showing the holes. It appears the same will happen to any fool who tries to do a second of WofS, and a good style ascent just may be impossible. Definining the degree of ENHANCEMENT is a silly game. The difference between we only cleaned a little with the drill, and drilling a hole is minimal in my book. I think I actually would prefer a hole with something in it.

Side note: Even though I dig Slater and knew him pretty well, his failures on your route are not giving me a lot of insight into the difficulty. Rob was a very good wall climber, but not the best around. He had problems with other routes and multiple tries to ascend, but, and after this new info, maybe it was not a Slater problem at all on this particular route. It just might have been the route itself.

Double side note™™™:
Really glad you guys are around for this dialog. Much appreciated!
yo

climber
NOT Fresno
Oct 28, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
Hey, Fish, it's the Sabbath™.

Hush thy self.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Oct 29, 2005 - 02:10am PT
I work for the government. so when I say somethin is becoming clear, you can bet your ass it is geting murkier...like this thread....
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 29, 2005 - 01:36pm PT
Let's summarize:

We're talking about a route put up in an era long ago, which was controversial at the time, but since then had faded into obscurity along with its original controversy, until recently.

We have two of the original ascentionists in the conversation.

One of them, MSmith seems quite honest and sincere, but also completely oblivious to the fact that the repeated use of chiseled hooks and the extensive use of bolts on a El Cap first ascent may have caused some consternation among the experienced practicioners of the sport at the time.

The other, madbolter1, seems indignant that the world hasn't been astonished as his prowess of his ascent of El Cap, and considers any critique on his route as "ridiculous and uncharitable," and has dissed in so many words some of the top aid climbers in history, namely Jim Bridwell and Jim Beyer, presumably to enhance his own reputation of being more skilled than them. By repeatedly bringing in his religious beliefs (which in reality has nothing to do with this conversation except that it may have added a week to their time on the route), he seems to make some connection of his religion with the public perception of his route, feeling persecuted on both counts (perhaps showing a hint of a Jesus complex?).

Because it seems apparent that the ascentionists haven't climbed too many routes other than those that have a significant "reputation" of top difficulty, which they repeated with what seems like the sole purpose to gain credibility for themselves and for their ability to publicly announce to the world that their route was harder, it seems difficult to ascertain that these climbers are climbing purely for their own "personal experience" as claimed. In fact, it seems like the sole motive is to convince the world that Wings of Steel was somehow ahead of its time, despite the fact that they admit enhancing the natural features considerably.

Finally, at the time and perhaps even more so now, the standards of aid climbing has been to climb massive walls in as pure style as possible, meaning using natural features; if no natural features are available, to use a rivet rather than chipping, bathooking, chisseling, or otherwise altering the stone in a short-term manner of thinking, a fact these ascentionists seem completely unwilling to accept, even 20 years after the event.

The first ascentionist's lifelong insistence on promoting their actions as a high standard simply because of the resulting difficulty of their manufactured route seems to suggest that they therefore feel deserving of accolades as pioneers, instead of what it finally really appears to be, a trio of inexperienced climbers trying to make a name for themselves.
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2005 - 02:50pm PT
"...a trio of inexperienced climbers..."

Who is the third climber?
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Oct 29, 2005 - 03:53pm PT
Uhhh, typo?

BTW, I was at the Supertopo launch-party, and If this isn't the best thread yet, it's close.
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
" Uhhh, typo? "

OK, that makes sense. This thread had blown up and I haven't read every single post so I thought maybe I missed some inside information on a reticent third member of the Wings of Steel party.
wildone

climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
Oct 29, 2005 - 05:09pm PT
c'mon 200!
I agree, although I've only been lurking for 3 years or so.
Carry on...
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 29, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
Hmm, actually, I always thought there was a third person up there. Maybe because I couldn't imagine the gazillion loads of gear only supplying two people.

What gets me in all this, is all the years I would say, "Hey, well, I'm sure it's a hard route," and somewhat defending their right to have climbed it (in principle), even though I was always aware that the style wasn't the best.

But after seeing the motivations and pitiful self-righteousness of one of the first ascentionists, things seem different to me.

Maybe I'm just getting crusty...

Then again, maybe it's just a big troll, and madbolter1 is someone else posing as a arrogant dimwit. One can only hope.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 29, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
Oh, oh, OH!

So you guys only enhanced the hook placements a little bit!

Then perhaps we need a new rating system?

E1 - only one crystal removed and you can't tell which one
E2 - two crystals removed but you might be able to tell if you use a magnifying glass
E3 - drill tip used to enhance, but you probably won't notice because we never mentioned it

Etc.

Damn, just when things seemed to start cooling down, they get really interesting! I can see three stars outside, so the Sabbath has ended here, at least in the Eastern Time Zone.

I am Praise the LORD and Pass the Pitons Pete,
and I climb, type and even drink on Sundays.

P.S. Glad to hear you guys are cool with wine. I brought a couple nice bottles of shiraz on my last two-week El Cap ascent, and of course the extra water to fight dehydration on the wall.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Oct 29, 2005 - 08:14pm PT
This is fun

Something from earlier makes me wonder about the troll element, but surely they will address it.
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Oct 29, 2005 - 08:34pm PT
...we're listening...
kevin Fosburg

Sport climber
park city,ut
Oct 29, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
It's interesting how this discussion goes on without ever seeming to resolve . I wonder if it is because, as some have asserted, aid climbing is not really climbing at all but just a means of mechanical hoisting albeit subject to various "ethical" (and ultimately arbitrary) considerations. Perhaps the crucial aspect is the use/non-use of a hammer to manipulate the medium. First and early ascenscionists enjoy a huge advantage before a route has gone clean. Perhaps hammer/drill users are simply splitting butt-hairs talking about difficulty. The earlier the ascent, the greater the false pride.
WBraun

climber
Oct 29, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
"The earlier the ascent, the greater the false pride."

Kevin; what's that mean?
kevin Fosburg

Sport climber
park city,ut
Oct 29, 2005 - 10:51pm PT
You know, the Bridwellian axiom, "first ascents are where it's at, everyone else is just jackin'".
yo

climber
NOT Fresno
Oct 29, 2005 - 11:41pm PT
Climbing's climbing. Gravity's the same everywhere. Fight it how you can.


I can't believe that monster post was a troll. Who's got that kind of time? Besides dirtbags and weird climbing loners and internet tweakers?



Oh.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Oct 30, 2005 - 02:48am PT
you guys are a bunch of fence sitters.

look up earlier in the thread where I mentioned "poor style." and the resonses I got from all yall.

now duesce seys the same things, in much better language. and all yall are just now in his corner taunting the key players back into the game.

lame

I'm still waiting for ricardo to buck up and tell duece or Russ to go climb ther route...! ;)

I'm out
WBraun

climber
Oct 30, 2005 - 10:52am PT
Whata mean you're out Lambone? I thought we are having a discussion on the science of "Zen and the Art of Aid Climbing"?

What do you think this is some kind of boxing match?

History, intrigue, mystery, and why does El Cap face southwest and northwest ..... stay tuned to your Supertopo channel “Wings of Steel”

By the way I read this line in Tom Higgins "Tuolumne Meadows" article in that other thread…..

"Obviously, no one has the right to tell another climber how to climb as long as the rock is not hurt ......(Tom Higgins)
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 11:35am PT
jeff benowitz --“if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count.”

Jeff, I won’t argue that one can’t sanely hold an ethic that touching the drill, even for a stroke, should count as a hole. I will argue that you’re advancing an amazing standard. A great deal of hard aid on El Cap involves heading, typically #2’s in spotty seams where you have to hunt down pockets to get placements. You don’t have to go very many placements until you have an otherwise usable natural pocket except for a crystal or obstruction on one side or the other. Typically a single whack of the pick of the hammer into the pocket and problem is gone. Is that basically placing a hole? If so, then what about just smashing the head in and letting it take out the crystal directly? Same effect. Is that a hole? What about chipping the top of a nubbin to sling it? Another hole there? Or maybe not as long as you chip it with the pick of your hammer instead of with your drill. I have two concerns with where you are going. First, your standard is amazingly high. A crystal’s modification and we have a hole, add it to the count. Second, you are holding us to an unprecedented level of scrutiny, a standard which the Yosemite climbing community has never held any of their own to. Climbs like the Sea and Zenyatta (the standards of the day) have all sorts of overt modifications which no one has been worried about. To paraphrase Charles Bronson, “If someone is a murder, they are probably a liar too.” We can only assume that climbs like the Sea have every manner of modification from a stroke of the hammer to things that are half way (or more) to a bat hook behind the top of a flake. Have you even thought to ask the Bird if he knows how many total “holes” (using your standard) are in his climbs? The answer is undoubtedly “no.” Had the Bird done Wings of Steel using our style no one would be challenging his crystals. Is the real issue here how the climb was done, or who did the climb? I should also add that a hole “by definition” is a cylindrical shaft, an inherently concave structure. The enhancements on Wings of Steel are not concave. Come up with a term like “dirty” if you feel the need for a label, but “hole” isn’t the term to use.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 11:37am PT
deuce4 – “In aid, of course, it has always been an occasional technique to break off a loose flake or something to make a placement, but think about it en masse, and you may be coming closer to the questions people were raising at the time.”

It seems like part of the complaint is the ‘quantity’ of modifications. I totally agree that it is a legit concern, and well expressed. I can’t recall the figure, but Wings of Steel has somewhere around 150 hooks. At least 10% of these saw modification. I feel safe to say that less that 20% did. That would come to about 20 -25 over the climb. (Richard, if that doesn’t jive with your recollection, feel free to jump in.) So I don’t know if that falls into the category of “occasional” which, as you acknowledge, is standard Yosemite ethics, or whether if qualifies as “en mass.” I could have described our number of modifications as “several,” but to me “several” means 3-5, maybe 3-10. So I used the word “many.” The only reason Wings of Steel could work as a climb is its less than vertical nature. On an overhanging wall you need a pit to make things go. On the Great Slab a flat surface is reliable. The number of micro-ledges and flakes on the Slab with flat tops usually left us with the problem of figuring out which one was best, not where to find one at all. Moreover, most of the flakes on the Slab are too small to be banging into as they are smaller than the diameter of the drill itself! If Jeff wants to count every modification as a hole, then consider the climb to have 165-170 holes.

“there's a big difference in the experience if you have a drill and/or chisel by your side and are willing to enhance to your level.”
It seems we are back an argument of ‘quality’ of enhancement. As I think should be clear from my post that kicked off this debate, we didn’t modify flakes “to [our] level.” If a flake was otherwise usable but had an obstruction at the back, we chipped the obstruction to get a flat spot big enough to take the tip of a Leeper Narrow (which as you know has a tip of almost no size). We didn’t say, “Gee, while I’m here, I think I’ll just bring this puppy down to my comfort level.”

One point I’ll throw in, although I realize this deviates from the topic. Regarding hook modifications, we could have said it never happened and sold the story. But we have attempted to be honest and transparent, offering both supporting points to our climb and points that are open to criticism so that those following this thread can form a judgment based on the entire truth. Our forthrightness should be worth something.

“I always thought that the left side of El Cap slab will go free someday.”
A great point. I don’t know if by “always” you meant in ’82 which was before sticky rubber. At the time it never crossed my mind that it could go free someday. With each passing year it seems more conceivable.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 11:38am PT
Gene, Lot’s of good points being made. I don’t see the complaint of the bat hook traverse exiting the climb as one of them. The climb’s last pitch had a total of 13 placements which consisted of 3 rivets and 10 bat hooks because we only had 3 rivets on us. That fact of the bat hooks is inconsequential to the intent or essence of anything we’ve said. Every topo we’ve ever released or has been published notes the bat hooks. It’s not a secret that accidentally escaped from the closet.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 11:40am PT
Farrokh Bulsara–“This is the fatal flaw with the "method". If I can't tell which flakes have been ENHANCED, then am I allowed to ENHANCE my hook placements in order to do the route? How do I know I am even doing the correct route?

Russ (do we have to be friends to call you Fish?),
Well, dang. Maybe we needed to do enough modification to every flake that our path would be clear? Hey, I do agree that exact flake finding is a challenge on Wings. There are enough bolts and rivets to point the direction, but there is no way any two ascents will use the exact same placements. I think Richard spoke with Slater after his trip to the 5th anchor. Ask him if Slater ever complained of getting lost. Regarding this thread, it’s just about to the place of needing a high speed connection.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 11:41am PT
Piton Pete, E1, E2, E3, that was classic. Wings of Steel, A5 E2!

Hey, this tread has been a good discussion. The time it’s taking me to download it tells me it’s probably about run its course. Of course I’ll be willing to respond more, but if you don’t hear back don’t think I’m bailing. Hope it’s been as enlightening for you as for me.

MS

Drill First, Think Later™ lol
Landgolier

climber
the flatness
Oct 30, 2005 - 02:15pm PT
Man, this is one for the thinking caps. Lemme offer up something that struck me, a crappy aid climber but a slab fanatic, as interesting.

Most hard aid is vertical or overhung most of the time, whereas what these guys were doing was a massively sustained slab. Their technique certainly can't be called clean, but it seems like what they were really doing was using hooks on slab the way that you use pitons on more "normal" terrian. I mean, the whole principle of nailing with modern hard steel pins is that you're going to make the rock conform, ever so slighly, to the pin, and the next guy's going to nail it out a little more, and so on and so on. Granted eventually people are going to start stuffing brassies and offset aliens in those holes and the route is going to go clean (or at least cleaner), but it's not like there isn't some rock destruction going on.

Your average pin placement certainly takes out a crystal or three, which by our ethics is ok for FA's. It seems like the only difference here is that these guys whacked the rock with the pick or the tip of a drill rather than the pro itself, which while it reminds most of us of chipping holds or ditch witching a head placement isn't really that different from blasting an Arkansas Toothpick LA into some crack. Yeah, the next guys that come along aren't going to be able to use (or find) all the same little flake ridges, so maybe they do 50% new placements. Granted these suckers would be harder to see than your average pin scar, but maybe after 5-6 ascents there's enough of them going on that the route goes clean. Yeah, the drill/pick would have to come out on early repeats, but ethically I think this is closer to just nailing on a repeat than it is to drilling new rivets or bat hook holes. Maybe not exactly the same, but certainly closer. Perhaps it will also go free some day and will do so at a lower grade than it would have in virgin state, but from what I understand of the free ascents of the Nose it basically only goes because of the pin scars.

Maybe I'm just bullshitting here, but again, what's so radically different about bashing some crystals in a crack to make a pin fit and picking some boogers off a microflake to make a hook stick? It's definitely not classic hooking ethics, but I think it's fair to say that these guys were also pushing the boundaries of hooking. Again, maybe on sustained slab it should be ok to use hooks the way pins are used on stuff that is vertical or past vertical.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 30, 2005 - 02:57pm PT
MSmith, thanks for your comments and openness. Apologies for the gruff tone directed at your route's ascentionists in general.

I don't really think you need to justify your climb. It's all about the personal experience in the end, not what other people think. There's no need to compare.

The important thing to do is to be at peace with your own efforts, which you seem to be.

As far as the slab someday going free, your route will probably show the way and be the first line people will attempt.

All the best-
John Middendorf
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2005 - 05:22pm PT
John,

Thanks. All the best to you as well.

--Mark
WBraun

climber
Oct 30, 2005 - 08:05pm PT
Akutzer says: "Who even cares anymore?"

Funny you said you read the whole thread, Richard Jensen cares and that's why it's being discussed.

You missed it totally dude as you were just looking for something to make your own independent rant on people to make your own self look like you're so far above everything.

Get over yourself dude and go climbing ......:-)

Edit; this isn't the real Akutzer, but an imposter.
jack herer

climber
chico, ca
Oct 30, 2005 - 09:20pm PT
please someone f*#kin climb this route now
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 12:47am PT
Ok, where to start???

LOVED the "hush thy self" post. PERFECT play off my "no posting on Sabbath" post. Nice one, Yo.

Slater didn't "fail" on the route because he couldn't do it or couldn't FOLLOW it--he bailed because of insane heat. I'm sympathetic, having been there, done that. As everybody knows, the SW side CAN be a reflecter oven, especially the slab.

My little contribution on "enhancements".... It has been claimed that our "enhancing" was somehow retrograde, because that wasn't the style of the time. But it WAS, and it has been widespread and common throughout aid climbing history. Bill Westbay makes no bones about the fact that they were chiseling copperhead placements on PO Wall (you can read it in Yosemite Climber, where he refers to "using a chisel to clean flakes" from seams so that copperheads would stick). We've already mentioned what we found on the Sea, which means that either the FA team or some very respected teams (two through four) were "enhancing down to their level" on subsequent ascents. On this very thread I have been bashed for supposedly "dissing some great aid climbers, like Bridwell and Beyer," so if Beyer is a "great" aid climber, then HE has been "enhancing" and "enhancing" like crazy to get those sandstone routes to go. I could go on and on, but I'll defer to Landgolier, who makes the same points I would have, and he does it much more succinctly than I would have.

"Pitiful self-righteousness" and "arrogant dimwit"? I'm baffled. We're bashed if we don't "defend the route," and if we defend the route then it's "pitiful self-righteousness"? Of course, being baffled is just the sort of thing an "arrogant DIMWIT" WOULD say in this context, so I'm hung on my own petard. :-)

However, THIS passage does seem to deserve a BIT more of a "pitifully self-righteous" reply: "The first ascentionist's lifelong insistence on promoting their actions as a high standard simply because of the resulting difficulty of their manufactured route seems to suggest that they therefore feel deserving of accolades as pioneers, instead of what it finally really appears to be, a trio of inexperienced climbers trying to make a name for themselves."

Well, as I rememeber it, we were not "promoting our actions... as [though we were] pioneers... trying to make a name for [ourselves]." What I remember is that we couldn't even get the route GOING before some cowardly souls gathered just enough courage to jug our fixed lines in the night, chopped our bolts and rivets in the night, pulled our ropes down (have I mentioned in the night?), defecated all over our gear and ropes, and then spent the following weeks (and then years) stirring up a controversy in the Valley (and ultimately all over) that we wanted no part of and did our best to communicate honestly in order to resolve. But, these "protectors of purity" did not want to communicate--instead they wanted to engage in a smear campaign, which they were able to effectively pursue because, being well-known climbers, they were able to get books and articles published telling their side, all, of course, without ever having done the route. As I remember it, we got DRAGGED into a one-sided "discussion" in which we weren't even ALLOWED to "promote" ANYTHING, not even the truth.

As I remember it, correct me if I'm wrong, Robbins DID Harding's route. Isn't that how it went? I mean, shouldn't the "protectors of purity" BE themselves pure? Of course, I'm so dim that I don't expect to actually "get it," so help me out here people.

As I rememeber it, ALL we did to "promote" anything was to steadfastly deny the universally-repeated claim that the route was a rivet ladder, NOT claiming that we had done anything "high-standard". Oh, and we DID "promote" that we thought it was in "bad style" for one to chop a route he haven't climbed. Oh, and finally, we DID "promote" that we thought that it was in "bad style" to empty one's bowels on somebody else's gear. So, I guess we WERE "promoting" a few things about the route after all, but I just can't remember "promoting" ANY of the things that John says we were trying to "promote".

I would like to get to some productive, ethical discussions, but it seems that things keep coming back to our motives, our characters, our intentions.... like this: "Because it seems apparent that the ascentionists haven't climbed too many routes other than those that have a significant 'reputation' of top difficulty, which they repeated with what seems like the sole purpose to gain credibility for themselves and for their ability to publicly announce to the world that their route was harder, it seems difficult to ascertain that these climbers are climbing purely for their own 'personal experience' as claimed. In fact, it seems like the sole motive is to convince the world that Wings of Steel was somehow ahead of its time, despite the fact that they admit enhancing the natural features considerably."

It would be NICE to stick to some objective facts, but over the years this has perpetually been denied us. It's just amazing to me, John, what insight you apparently have into my soul... oh, and of a route you haven't done. When you say, "enhancing the natural features considerably," I have to wonder how you are able to ADD the "considerably" part. BECAUSE we have attempted to be totally transparent in this thread, we have discussed things that would have been FAR better for us to not discuss, and nobody doing a subsequent ascent would have ever known we "enhanced" at ALL, much less "considerably". People seem to keep forgetting that the Sea WAS "considerably" enhanced!

But the best part of this post is that it sets up yet another damned if we do, and damned if we don't scenario. If we had NOT done any other "top reputation" routes, then John et al would continue to float the line that we were "inexperienced kids" who didn't know a hook from a duckbilled platypus. But, as I said earlier, "partially" in order to defend ourselves against just such charges, we HAVE actually done some "top reputation" routes, thereby demonstrating that we DID know that a hook is a curved, pointy piece of metal, and a duckbilled platypus is a marsupial. (At least, I THINK we demonstrated all that!) And that "partially" is rather important, since, as I ALSO said, we did those routes "for ourselves" as well because we wanted to know for ourselves where we stood.

Maybe the idea is that I MUST be an "arrogant dimwit" because I haven't yet figured out a way out of such a dichotomy, yet I am stupid enough to keep trying. I don't know. The "murkiness" to ME is that I can't feel my way through all the psycho-babble to find any objective facts in such posts.

I AM also quite baffled about exactly HOW I have "in so many words" dissed some great aid climbers, like Bridwell. In all my posts that mention him, I have expressed only a genuine respect for Bridwell. It is deeply question-begging, John, for you to think that just because I suggest that the Bird's El Cap routes quite apparently have had "enhancements," that I'm dissing him. You assume that "enhancing" is bad, then you assume the the Bird would never do anything "bad" like that, and ONLY "inexperienced kids" like us would ever be so retrograde as to do something that "bad," so for us to drag the Bird down to our level MUST be dissing him. Yet, I have expressed ONLY respect for Bridwell, which I honestly do have, EVEN THOUGH I am confident that people on his FA teams HAVE enhanced their placements. Regarding Beyer, yes, I have dissed him, but, then, well... I simply deny your claim that he is a "great" aid climber. As I remember, you were one of the ones most frothing at the mouth about Intifada, lo those many years ago. But, the FACTS speak for themselves, I guess--IF the facts are allowed to get out.

By the way, this thread is getting insanely long at this point, so we're all clearly in the mode of trying to keep the pathetic dial-up riff-raff (sorry, Mark) off this thread now... so I'm just doing my part. :-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 12:56am PT
John, you SAY in your later post that we didn't need to justify the route because it was all just for our own experience. Mark quickly lets you off the hook, but we've been the brunt of some of your own published critique of the route, so I'm not quite that easy.

This latest post of yours seems not to be written by the same person who issued your earlier diatribe. What's up? If the valley boys would have had the attitude you have most recently expressed, Wings WOULD have faded into obscurity, this thread wouldn't exist, YOU wouldn't have published some of the things you have about the route, and WE would never have had anything to say about it.

Just as we had NOTHING to say about Ring of Fire--because we did it just for ourselves, and we FULLY expect that route to fade into obscurity, that would have been the fate of Wings. But people like you have perpetually disallowed that to happen. So, please explain. What's with the sudden attitude shift?

I just wish there had been a way to have this very discussion about twenty years ago!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 01:00am PT
BTW, even the route name has been problematical for some on this thread, like it is provocative or something. We named the route after the Kansas song, "Icarus, Borne on Wings of Steel." We listened to that song over and over, and it fit our mood at the time.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 01:09am PT
Finally, I have some ethical questions.

When Mark and I did Wings, we each weighed about 150/155 pounds. And, we were trying to keep any excess gear weight off of us when we went up on lead. Even so, we were pulling off hook flakes, and they weren't ALL undercut. So, ultimately we found a more or less "continuous" series of flakes up the route, but those that held us would probably not hold someone weighing, say, 180 pounds.

So, for the purposes of argument, let's assume that the route is currently repeatable in reasonable style by someone weighing 150 pounds, but it is NOT repeatable in reasonable style by someone weighing 180 pounds.

Did Mark and I have a responsibility to weight ourselves down with gear until we reached some sort of "average" aid climber weight, say, 175 pounds, thereby ensuring that the route would be repeatable in reasonable style by the average-weight aid climber?

Furthermore, now that the route is in its current state, do climbers heavier than, say, 160 pounds have a responsiblity to stay off of the route so that they don't risk ruining the route for those lighter folks who COULD climb it in reasonable style?
Darnell

Big Wall climber
Chicago
Oct 31, 2005 - 01:42am PT
I found this post by the Fish in an old RC.com

thread.http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=99540#99540

"Hey ya,
The friction hook is top secret.....
but..... think of a slab of C4 Stealth rubber mounted to a metal plate about 4 inches long and able to flex side to side. All this is mounted on a short "arm" about the length of a FISH Hook.... clip in, apply weight, and welcome to the afterlife..... if it blows"

and this

"also from the top secret drawer.....
the lead head.... like a copperhead but lead... and you use a mini torch to melt it into the crack. Keeps you under the umbrella called "hammerless aid".
"try it sometime"
Russ "



Since I weigh 190 lbs. I wonder if the new millinium hard boy's will give me the ok to use the friction hook? I know I am way down at the bottom of the valley pecking order list, but maybe if I buy them some OE??


Let the games begin!!

hmmmm... Maybe another thread should be started for the dial up ppl. wings of steal part two?


Kerry Livgrin(sp?) is the man!!
_
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Oct 31, 2005 - 01:50am PT
"Had the Bird done Wings of Steel..."
(emphasis mine)


...well if he had, it wouldn't have such a freakin gay name, that much is certain!




edit:
i just keep picturing big hair and hearing loud journey ballads whenever i hear that name.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2005 - 01:52am PT
Yikes now you have to be a certain weight to do this route, that only means light weights may have a chance. Ironic isn't it?

Thus we may now have come to the conclusion this route is of a rarefied and subtle nature?
nickh

climber
St. Louis, MO
Oct 31, 2005 - 09:55am PT
"and a duckbilled platypus is a marsupial"-madbolter1

A duck-billed platypus is a monotreme, not a marsupial. Now all your claims are TRULY suspect!!!!!!!

Nick

edit-spelling
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 10:36am PT
Nickh, we are both correct, depending upon which experts you believe. The platypus IS, as you say, a monotreme according to most experts. However, I am not alone in calling it a marsupial:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:6p563h8HOQEJ:www.sci-con.org/news/articles/reprints/20030402.pdf+duck+billed+platypus+marsupial&hl=en

And many other experts do commonly refer to the playpus as a marsupial. I agree that it is most accurate to refer to them as monotremes, as they are egg-laying.

But the real issue here IS charity, isn't it. Even if I were utterly mistaken and alone in calling it a marsupial, is that really the point of this thread, and are ALL my claims suspect if I make such a mistake? Somehow I thought this was a climbing thread, but we are now into primitive mammals (the platypus IS a mammal according to the vast majority of contemporary scientists). Do we get to make ANY mistakes without being ripped?

Guess not. As always, there are some (at least they don't seem to be the majority, as the once were) who are determined to find SOME way to keep bashing on us, even if now it has nothing to do with the route. So, nickh, regardless of the classification status of the platypus, Wings is not a rivet ladder.

Back on topic now?
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
Oct 31, 2005 - 11:01am PT
MSMith: "Climbs like the Sea and Zenyatta (the standards of the day) have all sorts of overt modifications which no one has been worried about"

Exactly. Still waiting to hear the SuperTaco outrage about the drill being used for enhancement on those routes.

"Is the real issue here how the climb was done, or who did the climb?"

I submit it is the latter. People are afraid to criticize those they have idolized.

Landgolier: "Your average pin placement certainly takes out a crystal or three, which by our ethics is ok for FA's"

Great point. Why is no one whining about those poor wittle crystals lost to the mighty cro-mo steel?

The discussions about freedom vs. resource conservation are important and valuable. I'm just tired of the pseudo-righteousness from the rock police where they excoriate people like Richard & Mark but turn a blind eye to celebrities who have used the very same tactics.
426

Sport climber
Hanging Limb(yeah. it is), TN
Oct 31, 2005 - 11:07am PT
"Why is no one whining about those poor wittle crystals lost to the mighty cro-mo steel?"




Cuz' dems good free climn hols in da woiks!
nickh

climber
St. Louis, MO
Oct 31, 2005 - 11:51am PT
madbolter-1,
my post was more of a sattire of the nitpickers, than a dig at you.

Nick

Added- As has been said before, I think Royal Robbins determined this a long time ago. THE STANDARD IS to repeat the route, if it is a overdrilled chop 'em and tell everybody (plus you get to spray). However 2000 ft up the big stone you may have your mind opened, and be quietly in awe of someone who, at lower elevations, you were convinced was destined for the more painful circles of Hell.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2005 - 12:45pm PT
Well I found a guide book (Meyer’s) and it shows 13 pitches for Wings of steel and then joins the Aquarian Wall to finish. So it is a variation to the Aquarian Wall not a complete separate line from bottom to the top.

Richard and Mark found a subtle and rarified series of placements interceded with drilled protection between the Aquarian Wall and the Dihedral wall up the great slab.

In the statement "Is the real issue here how the climb was done, or who did the climb?"

I honestly believe that the people debating this topic are doing so on “how it was done” and not “who”. Some folks will love to make that their primary focus as it will strengthen their defensive tactics away from the real discussion using the so called “racist” platform.

Many years have passed since the events of the first ascent of this variation to the Aquarian Wall and hardly anybody has given a rat’s ass about this anomaly on this great slab.

It has been done and stands, what else is there to do. The future will tell whether this is a masterpiece or a forced push through the great slab. It will be based on individual opinions which can be swayed and biased according how one visualizes.

So far this variation according to some has been left standing in disgrace for 20 plus years.

But the mighty Captain after everyone leaves, in the dead of the winter remains proud and far above the meager exploits against its face that man attempts.

Thus again I would also have to ask “What does the Captain think about us?"
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Oct 31, 2005 - 02:47pm PT
Nick, sorry to have missed the satire. It's so hard to convey tone in a forum like this. I AM a dimwit, so be patient with my sloooowwwwwness. Thanks

Werner, I think that time will tell that Wings was neither a "masterpiece" nor something totally contrived. It was a subtle route, and we did try to follow the features where they led, but it WAS "pushed" as well (depending upon what you mean by "pushed"). We certainly WERE willing to drill to connect up sections of hooking flakes, but there is quite a sliding scale determining how much drilling is "valid".

I guess that all we've ever wanted to say to the climbing community over the years is: It's not a rivet ladder, so take a chill-pill.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Oct 31, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
Cool thread. I truly hope you guys are the FA party, and if so, thanks for the candor. It does beg the question of why this discussion only came up now, though.
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 31, 2005 - 04:17pm PT
“But the mighty Captain after everyone leaves, in the dead of the winter remains proud and far above the meager exploits against its face that man attempts.”

Werner, you are quite the philosopher and poet, far surpassing me in those areas. Regarding the rest of your post, I’m not sure how or if to respond. Wings of Steel will be 25 years old in not too long. Another 25 years and we’ll be seeing each other at the nursing home card table, not the Camp IV parking lot. Maybe it’s time to put more work into building bridges than into reinforcing walls. Therefore, I’ll limit the tone and scope of my response to your views of our variation of a variation of the West Face route.

Regarding your objection to my statement, "Is the real issue here how the climb was done, or who did the climb?", go back and read the post to which I was responding. I think it will be clear that the question was appropriate and the answer was “yes.” It is not indicated to take my statement out of the context of that post and use it to characterize my view of the group of climbers who have contributed to this thread as a whole. I should note that the overwhelming majority of what I have said in this thread goes directly to the issue of “what,” not “who.” Insinuating that my “primary focus” has been a “defensive tactic” to divert attention “away from the real discussion” doesn't seem very reasonable, to say the least.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2005 - 07:42pm PT
Ha ha ha Mark kind of funny how we miss understand ourselves on the forum. My statement (“is the real issue here how the climb was done, or who did the climb?”) was meant in context of not you or Richard but of the responses.
The “defensive tactic” to divert attention “was meant about your detractors not you guys.

You see, the detractors are also on the defensive …..
MSmith

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 31, 2005 - 08:14pm PT
Werner, Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I'm getting too defensive. Now I'm REALLY glad I didn't say what I was thinking the way I felt like saying it. BTW, maybe I need more training in philosophy, but since El Cap indeed can't think, it seems to me that asking what El Cap would say is little more than a case of pointless personification. (Yes, I know you explained this in some detail in an earlier post.)
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Oct 31, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
gawd, if I have to read another post with every other word in all-caps, I think I'll be ill.

madbolter, just glancing at your posts, and seeing things like:

"we weren't even ALLOWED to "promote" ANYTHING, not even the truth. "

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you that you feel so controlled, and so insecure about something you did 20 years ago.

I'm also realizing how you promote your climb, by spewing to the point where someone finally speaks up, triggering a series of long winded claims about being "unjustly" attacked on a whole range of issues, as if it was all initiated by that person.

It seems like the only one who believes that your climb was possibly of no value to anyone, is you.

Maybe you should consider your own advice: take the red pill, chill, etc.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2005 - 09:41pm PT
Good troll Dingus I really don't think anyone really gives a sh-it if it's repeated or not.

People are into free climbing ElCap now, aid is dead .......he he he
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Nov 1, 2005 - 10:15am PT
WELL JOHN, IT APPEARS THAT NOTHING HAS CHANGED OVER THE YEARS AFTER ALL. (oops, sorry)

when lacking any facts, or when the facts don't sustain you, you can always revert to speculative personal attacks.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Nov 1, 2005 - 10:40am PT
Mark and Richard, thanks for posting. And maybe this is what you were expecting from the climbing community after all these years... Good job on your FA on El Cap.

And yes I do believe that you two were fairly well mistreated without proper justification. And those that tore your ropes down and sh&& on them will get theirs.

Now will someone send this thing already?!
darod

Trad climber
New York
Nov 1, 2005 - 12:12pm PT
Mike wrote:

"...And what's with the last BAT hook section not being part of the route and merely connecting routes? Bull. It's part of WOS, whether you like the section's "style" or not. Maybe the guys who put up routes with intermittent systems would like to omit the rivet ladders to render their lines better in "style." You guys fully lost me there..."

What is this Mike? this fact is always been in the topos of the route, not a secret to anyone who might have looked at it.

So what's your point? more nonsense trying to justify the unjustifiable?
darod

Trad climber
New York
Nov 1, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
WGAF?

I bet you would if it was your name/route trashed around the way it has happened with WoS and its FAs.
the Fet

Trad climber
Loomis, CA
Nov 1, 2005 - 02:58pm PT
"BTW, even the route name has been problematical for some on this thread, like it is provocative or something. We named the route after the Kansas song, "Icarus, Borne on Wings of Steel."

As an outsider I always though the name was an F-you to the detractors. Bolts/Rivets (the steel) were the thing that allowed you to soar/climb (the wings). lol.

So although you didn't intend the name to be provocative, hopefully you can see why, for some people at least, it is. If the name was Icarus it wouldn't be an issue. You need to take some responsiblity for this IMO.

It like a comedian complaining that an audience sucks and doesn't get their jokes. Yes, the audience might be a tough crowd, but it's up to the comedian to make their jokes understood and funny.
the Fet

Trad climber
Loomis, CA
Nov 1, 2005 - 03:47pm PT
Dingus you are extrapolating a lot from what I wrote. Re-read and take note of the many qualifiers I put in.

Edits: the guidebook only lists the name, not how they came up with it.

When you take *some* responsiblity for problems that are due mostly to external factors, you can effect a change, when you assign blame completely outside yourself you leave yourself powerless.

The name Wings of Steel sounds like a rivet ladder to me.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 1, 2005 - 04:04pm PT
I always thought it was either a riff on, or a misqoute from, a cartoon tagline from Fearless Fly™

"Your bullets cannot hurt me! My Wings are like a Shield of Steel.."
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 1, 2005 - 04:07pm PT
"And those that tore your ropes down and sh&& on them will get theirs."

WHOA!

did that realy happen?

harsh tokes dude!
John F. Kerry

Social climber
Boston, MA
Nov 1, 2005 - 04:27pm PT
Lambone sez "WHOA! did that realy happen?

Dude, your just now learning about this facet of the WoS saga?
Here's another whopper for you: it involves a route on a big cliff called EL CAPITAN, which is in YOSEMITE.

LOL, not really diggin' on ya', just thought your post was ironically funny.

Maybe the Deuce can explain to us why the rope-crapping was justified after all...
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Nov 1, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
John F. Kerry,

I think I read this entire thread (which takes way to long to load now), and up until that post I don't think anyone mentioned shitting on ropes.

It makes me laugh, but that does really suck, now I feel kinda bad for those guys.
Darnell

Big Wall climber
Chicago
Nov 1, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
meanwhile, back at the ranch............
WBraun

climber
Nov 1, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
Please post on the new thread Wings of Steel (continued). This thread takes far to long to load now, especially for the dialup folks.

Thank you ....
matty

Big Wall climber
Valencia, CA
Nov 16, 2005 - 11:04pm PT
Thought I'd add a link to the continued thread for future readers.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=114602#msg116278
Da_Dweeb

climber
Dec 25, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
I realize I may be out of protocol posting here given the age of this thread, but, f*#k it. Given the number of posts made here regarding the character or lack thereof about the Wings of Steel boys by people who don’t know a damn thing about either of them I feel compelled to respond as someone who actually did. As a student of Mark Smith’s for several years I can attest to his energy and enthusiasm as a teacher, his commitment and compassion toward his students, and his witty, subtle sense of humor - which likely WOULD be considered uninteresting by the smug, self-righteous knuckleheads on this forum who see fit to speculate on matters and on people they know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Dec 25, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
Da_Dweeb,
Welcome to the forum.

Looks like you skipped my posts, or perhaps ought to read the extension noted by Werner Braun.
No matter;
The world needs good teachers, so your dispatch noting Mark Smith's good deeds is heartening.

Merry Christmas & Happy Climbing!
Roy
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 25, 2007 - 11:39pm PT
Since I didn't bump this to the front, I'll add this:

Jesus just did the second ascent (FWA) of this "legendary" climb on his birthday today solo--word on the street is that he down graded it.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 26, 2007 - 03:33am PT
Jesus is a spray lord. He's just lookin' for more attention on his birthday.

That is all.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Dec 26, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
re: "which likely WOULD be considered uninteresting by the smug, self-righteous knuckleheads on this forum who see fit to speculate on matters and on people they know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT."

hey dweeb-
what were you expecting to find on the internet?
=)








edit-
oh and randy, why doesn't that damn hippie just stick to the simple but brilliant guilt tripping that has been so successful for him over the last couple of eons? i'm just sayin...
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Dec 26, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
This thread started before the forum could divide threads into multiple pages.

So new topics were started when this thread got too big, Wings of Steel Part III, IV, etc.

I'd read all of them if you are interested (and a masochist).

A lot of people came to the conclusion that WoS was mainly a question of style, not ethics. But some still don't get it.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Dec 26, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
Part IV
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=186142&f=0&b=0

Part II
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=114602#msg120102
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 26, 2007 - 03:47pm PT
I bet "JIMB" is knott so proud of the asinine statement he made about Todd Skinner 2 years ago...
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 26, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
Matt - hahaha Nice! Either way, he's got a hand out and is in your pockets.... *grimmace*
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Dec 26, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
HK- who says rapping isn't bold...
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Dec 26, 2007 - 07:47pm PT
HK,

are you saying we have to take into account that someone might be dead in two years before we make a remark about them?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 26, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
I'm with Da Dweeb, on this one.

After meeting both FAists, Mark and Richard, and being up a tiny bit on their route, my conclusion is they got a bad rap for doing their route.

The last I'd heard, it still hasn't seen a second ascent, which says something about how severe it is.

WOS will probably remain one of the hardest lines on El Cap for a long time.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Dec 27, 2007 - 12:26am PT
...at least until all the steep lines are played out and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...

(sorry, try though i might, i just couldn't resist! =)
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 27, 2007 - 02:58am PT
and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...

Looking at that route, up close, it does look like it could go free. At 5.xxxx. And it will, someday.

At least the belay anchors are there for a Leo or a Dean to go do it.


Mark and Richard did a proud line. The continual hook placements on WOS are WAY beyond anything else on El Cap. The proof is there has never been a second ascent. Stop bagging on them, and start climbing their route. Can you finish? Nobody else can.


In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years, and bubble-gum rubber shoes later, it now looks feasible. The Big Downside is the bolts are old, and like all old bolts, are probably sorta rotten. The SA team will have to repair the belays, as they go, hanging off portaledges, like Window Washers.

Will a team on Aquarian throw their trash onto the SA team?

Probably not.

Mark and Richard were subjected to the worst hoodlumry that Yosemite climbing has ever seen.

Who were those Sh*t On Ropes people? Not a one of them had the balls to climb the WOS route later. They stood at the base, and railed, as if insane, against those who could climb the line, a line that, history proves to date, they could not climb themselves.

Thank God those days are over.



EDIT: The SA of Wings of Steel will be the most significant ascent of El Cap in 25-odd years. Whoever does it will lay to rest the "rivet ladder" BS once and for all. And will come down with a story.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Dec 27, 2007 - 11:28am PT
A few observations from a person whos opinion means absolutely nothing.

Lambone is a windbag who hides behind Largos broad shoulders. And I bet he bought a unicycle to impress John.

My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical.

The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 27, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
I think one of the most ironic things about the whole WoS "thing" and how it all went down (and this, I believe is pointed out above, or in one of the other threads) is that this is *supposedly* all about ethics... Yet, the choppers and shitters had to jug the lines to do the chopping. This type of behavior was frowned upon back then, and should be now too.

If you're so high and mighty that you're going to clean a route on "your" rock, you should be able to do so in good style and should probably be able to actually climb the route. Otherwise, you're a windbag sucking hot air. I don't know much else about Dimitri, but this single act alone was pretty sackless and shows a lot about his character. And, since the reviving of this thread was based on character, I wonder what it says about a couple of guys who face tremendous adversity and stick to their guns through it all to reach their goals. In the process, proving everyone wrong about their style, ethic and sack. In history books and other endeavors, that type of character is something to be looked up to. And still, the route remains unrepeated. That must sting. No wonder folks have done all they can to continue the shroud of BS.

The truly unfortunate thing about all of this is what Batrock said above. And I know this is true of other people as well. Others have expressed this type of feeling. It really sucks to be disappointed and let down by the reality of those you once looked up to. Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Dec 27, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
batrock wrote:
"My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical."

i disagree, and i think that point of view lacks the context of the era and the tradition of the place. climbing was changing, ethics were changing, there was conflict and disagreement all over. climbers self regulated in ways such that we in 200? cannot simply compare our experience to theirs.

i am not defending anyone's specific actions or calling anyone else out for theirs, but i am saying that you cannot tell someone who was there anything about what did or did not happen while they were there and you were not.

my take is that it simply was not a community that was inclined to risk the resource or the tradition to outsiders they were unfamiliar with.

you want to love yosemite on the one hand, with all of its tradition and history and all that the words "traditional climbing" stand for in yosemite, and yet you want to cast blame on people who participated in that history and are responsible for that tradition?

stones and glass houses my man.

it's a bummer that some of those things happened, and richard and mark are likely not the only climbers to ever have been slighted, but maybe they had some pride at the time as well. i personally cannot help but wonder what would have been the history of WoS if they had woven themselves into the community and earned the trust of those who sought to persuade them away from their objective. we will never know.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 27, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
Good points, Matt.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 27, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
Batrock wrote:

HK,

are you saying we have to take into account that someone might be dead in two years before we make a remark about them?


No, knott at all. It's just that those tedious, chicken-shít comments about Todd Skinner were nothing new,
and now that he's gone they seem even more lame and chicken-shít, especially considering the hundreds
of posts in his memorial thread affirming what a great guy he was - both within and outside of the climbing "community".


Batrock - a few posts later you wrote:

The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.


It seems that we're on the same page. There are so many cowards who bad-mouth people relentlessly
from the safety of a remote computer, who wouldn't dare risk an in-person encounter.
In Todd's memorial thread, one of these ugly cowards made an unbelievably horrific comment,
and this was after Todd's family members (including his young niece) had posted.
Fortunately the post was deleted and the account banned within minutes; hopefully most missed it.

So perhaps I'm a bit sensitive, especially having had my own flock of Internet Bitches™ with a hard-on for me...
WBraun

climber
Dec 27, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
Tom quote: "In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years....."

Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.

Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route.

Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge.

The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did.

Seriously man, the whole history of WOS has been blown way out proportion and over zealously dramatized by a few interested individuals to make it seem bigger than life.

Beyers did a route to the left of West Face of El Cap that I believe hasn't had a second ascent yet either.

All this WOS steel over hyped bullshit will remain for people with no real clue about what climbing is about. They want to remain in their private little world of controversy and self bias.

The rest will just climb the Captain in the best way they can and walk by the physiological wreck that people have created in their own minds of that WOS.

If anyone ever does the 2nd ascent it will not be the second coming, but more anticlimatic.

A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 27, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
"Not true, Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line.'

and

'A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."

Seems kinda contradictory, Werner... Seems that it inspired some of the best of the era and our sport.

Just pointing it out.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Dec 27, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
Nefarius

I believe what Werner might have meant that as a free line it is incredibly inspiring, but as a blank aid line it isn't.
WBraun

climber
Dec 27, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
But their main motivations were not to "create a technically only" hard climb.

That was a side product of the "Line" and weakness of the rock which gave passage to the summit; (we call it a route, a line. etc.).

So if someone is inspired to do this line "WOS" then go do it.

I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.

That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid".

Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 27, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
I can understand that, John and Werner. Personally, I really enjoy doing routes with beautiful lines that call to you. And this is definitely the consensus feeling amongst climbers and FAist, for sure. But who's to say what is inspiring to others? In discussions I've had with people, it seems that the Great Slab did call to others, even for possible aid routes. Maybe it was the difficulty of the thing that called? The fact that there had been attempts on it and people bailed super low on the slab, etc. Of course, this just goes along with Werner's above lines on fanatical aid.

I can definitely understand it not being people's thing, at all. Obviously, it wasn't ptpp's thing. Probably too much hard work! haha! Talking with Ammon, he definitely has expressed what you're talking about. Especially what Werner says about the hooking, pitch after pitch. He said it was boring, not inspirational and frustrating, having to look for micro-hook move after micro-hook move. I can see it being really tedious.

But, man WoS would be a sick free line, for sure! That would be badass. I remember being able to see that the first pitch looked like it would go free. Linking feature to feature. There is a section of slab about 60' up that looked pretty heinous though. Can't say for certain, but it was between like the 2nd and 3rd bolt. It didn't look as bad when you were up there vs. looking up from the ground though.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Dec 27, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
"Two guys"?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 27, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
Werner,

Those last two post were full of it.

"Dale Bard, Kauk and others, were thinking and seriously looking at it for a free climbing line."

Really? That might be, but strange that WOS has seen a 1000 posts, many by you, and this fact comes to light only now even though this very point was the topic of discussion when the WOS threads were active 2 years ago. Also, in the pre-Fire's era, even Kauk wouldn't need more than 5 minutes to see that he wasn't doing a free ascent. Moreover, we showed up not long after Yaniro (world's first 5.13) had made an attempt on the Slab ... an AID attempt. Evidently he didn't view an aid route on the Slab as sullying a great El Cap feature destined for better things.

"Only two guys were involved with the travesty of physically messing with the WOS teams ropes and route. Don't lump everyone else into a blanket statement that they were involved. Those 2 guys acted alone that night without anyone else's knowledge. The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage that those 2 guys did."

What total, utter, BS through and through. Only two choppers, and no one else complicit, huh? Evidently you absented yourself from the Valley the week after the chopping, especially the night after when multiple people cat-called to us from the campfire at your (YOSAR) campsite, boisterously proclaiming that "we chopped your route" mixed with various other insults and profanity. "The people around at that time would not have condoned that type of sabotage …" What a joke. I’m sure that is very, very true for some who were there, but unfortunately that sentiment can’t be applied to the Valley locals as a whole.

"A technically difficult route only will usually not inspire, this is one of the main reason people reject WOS."

Say what? People reject WOS because it doesn’t inspire? Good thing for Yaniro that he saw the light before finishing the Slab and thereby marring his reputation as a visionary first ascensionist. Hey, maybe that's why I never climb at GPA, the rockfall is ok but all that nothingness just leaves me empty. Oh, wait, now I get it! A free route working up a line of weaknesses through a blank slab is Kauk-worthy ascetic, but an aid line doing the same is uninspiring.

I really feel most people don't really want to climb an aid route with predominately so many hooking moves pitch after pitch.

Ah, a nugget of truth unearthed.

That's why you "see" routes like let's say Zodiac, PO as "Classic" where as WOS is on the far far extreme end "fanatical aid". Most climbers are not at the extreme end of fanatical aid climbing.

Hmmm, kind of sounds like the Sea on the early 80's, doesn't it?
snyd

Sport climber
Lexington, KY
Dec 27, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
yawn

I'm way dumber for having read this thread.
WBraun

climber
Dec 27, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
MSmith

I said "thinking" do have reading comprehension problems?

Do you have other "problems" that still linger? Like trying to link me to your WOS nightmares?

If you only really knew .......
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 27, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
WBraun

Looks like your basic strategy is smearing my character rather than addressing my points......
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:43am PT
^^^
pride
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:30am PT
I don't really have anything to add to the WOS debate, but MSmtih it's been 9 months since your last post here... perhaps things have been slow on STForum but in the 2 years since your first post of 95, the vast majority have been responding in one way or the other to topics on WOS.

I appreciate your willingness to provide your point of view on the history of that climb. And I understand, to some extent, the passion this episode inspired.

And though my wishes really don't necessarily mean a whole lot to anyone here, what would be fantastic for me is to get your input and insight into climbing and climbs beyond WOS. Climbing doesn't begin and end with that FA. And the community of climbers has grown and changed a lot from those tribal, territorial days. My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.

Just a thought.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:34am PT
MSmith,

What is it that you need right now? I am in about the same position as Werner, I was around at the time, I am not sure who did the bad deed to you, but have an idea and it was certainly the most immature members of the Valley community at the time. Sure, without thinking too hard about it, and not really knowing the move for move reality of your route, at the time, like most everyone else, I thought WOS was a strange forced line. Yes, I admit it, I probably laughed when I heard about the incident, and probably had some sort of local "in with the in crowd" attitude in relation to what happened, so I am complicit in your eyes.

I feel bad that this still haunts you. I am truly sorry as a valley local guy at the time that you were treated badly by the community.

So here we are today, on this forum, Werner, (and I would like to think myself as well) is one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community of old, and still there is seemingly nothing that can be said that will make you feel better. Only you can get over this. How are you going to do that?

Sincerely,

Peter
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Dec 28, 2007 - 08:52am PT
Like a bird rising out of Pheonix, Arizona!!!1
goatboy smellz

climber
colorado
Dec 28, 2007 - 10:07am PT
Less chit chat
more tap tap.

~~~~~~~

maysho speaks the truth.
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 10:20am PT
"I don't know much else about Dimitri......." Yeah Nefarius, you don't know sh#t, you got that right!

Hey Nefarius, this is the last line of your post, maybe you should regard the words you type you sacklicking bitch.


"Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time."

Oh yeah!! You wouldn't know history if it slapped you in the face. What you posted about me is pure propaganda you dipsh#t.

I had nothing to do with shitting on those ropes, nothing. I wasn't there but I surely know who did those things. Go crawl back up the as#@&%e you were born out of you pathetic piece of sh#t. Why don't you post the names of the people that actually did what you claim instead of speculative bullsh#t, f*#k off Nefarius! You said something about character? You've got none.

edit: One of the two people that did sh#t on those ropes posts here on a somewhat regular basis, and if he had balls he would set the record straight, I was NOT involved in any way whatsoever and for you to just spew lies and innuendo about me shows you're an ignorant jackass. Piss off Nefarius.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 11:22am PT
If you examine the point at which this thread was revived, you’ll notice that – specifically – it’s me who brought this thread back, not Mark. Further, Mark is simply and legitimately responding to comments made about events involving a FA he completed and a route he and his partner designed, now as it would seem in each of the posts made in the past regarding this topic.

Ed - That such a large number of posts have been made by Mark also on topics pertaining to events he was involved with is irrelevant, and does not diminish the validity of his statements. It most certainly does not call into question his involvement with this forum community as a whole.

“My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.”

That’s about as contrived as saying that if she weighs the same as a duck, she’s made of wood, and therefore a witch! Your “guess” doesn’t have any reasonable backing evidence, and is ludicrously set up to draw lines between two communities and circumstances that are as comparable as parrots and Richard Simmons. I hear they both have an affinity for wearing feathers, but that’s an aside.

And Maysho, what does anyone who has been slandered, suppressed, and had their character called into question on a public scale for decades want? To let the truth be heard. Don’t act like it’s the result of some deep-rooted personal problem that he responds legitimately to comments made about events that directly involve him.

“People don't give a sh#t about your climb because in the end a piece of rock doesn't matter if you are not a human being.
So, you didn't give a sh#t what the climbing community thought about you. You cared what your world - your religous world - thought about you.
Well in the end that is what you have got.Respect in your world.
But zero respect in the climbing world even though your skills are obviously comparable to the very best.”

Radical, glad you found a magic window to see into the souls of people you don’t even know, though I doubt you’ll be able to usher in a new era of peace between our world leaders with it, given that it is – much like your assumptions – cracked beyond repair. About the only accuracy in your tirade is that yes – Mark has earned a great deal of respect by a great many people, but as should be painfully obvious by now it had nothing to do with WoS. Mark was as respected a teacher as he was while I was a student due to the fact that he cared both about the students he taught and about the subject matter he taught them – and that he went to great lengths to never compromise his commitment to either. So how about you try a nice cup of shut the f*#k up about people you don’t know a thing about? It’s bitter, but then, hell, what around here isn’t?

I don't know. Maybe it was impulsive of me to post my account of Mark’s good character in this thread, but damn if it doesn’t appear those who want to defame and demean WoS and their climbers are the ones who won’t let go.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
I was going to respond to your email, meaty, but figured why not cut and paste it here since you also display your tough-guy mentality here too... Or is it Kindergarten charm?

Your response to me would really suggest to more level persons otherwise. Sounds like you have some anger management issues. More likely internet swole syndrome. Regardless, you might want to suggest to your peers, who were there at the time, to not say it was you, if that's the case. More specifically, you were singled out as the shitter, not necessarily as a chopper.

I could, honestly, give a f*#k whether or not is was you or any of your jackass friends. With all of you f*#ktards running around taunting them and trying to lay claim to being the tough guys that chopped and sh#t, it's no wonder that things got confused in the end. I'd be surprised, at this point, if any of you - other than those who were at the scene, know who actually did it. I doubt, whether it was you or not, that the persons involved will ever come forth. Pretty typical inner-fat-child-bully behavior. Too bad you, or friends, or whoever didn't sh#t on the ropes of a couple of guys who didn't have as much character as Mark and Richard, who would have dished out the ass whipping that was deserved.

Cheers!
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
Yep, I am a charm school graduate you dipsh#t.

What part of me NOT having anything to do with this incident does your dipshit self NOT understand! Piss off Nefarius, you haven't a clue who did this and for you to post up pure lies and innuendo is beyond pathetic because I NEVER made any claims about chopping or shitting on ropes.

Do yo know who actually did this stuff?? No?!!?..... you obviously don't! Well I do jackass so leave me out.

Nefarius, you're a pathetic bastard, I wouldn't call one of the people that did this a friend, so keep drooling you're baseless assertions, that seems to be the norm for some here. Again maybe the person that posts here regularly could get some sack and explain that I had NOTHING at all to do with this incident.I doubt it!
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
Ed, Peter, and Riley,

By and large I’m pretty puzzled by what to say as the logical end of what you expressed is rather perplexing.

Ed: “it's been 9 months since your last post here...the vast majority have been responding in one way or the other to topics on WOS.”

Wow, that’s a point I never thought about. Actually, I do post here, just under the identity gunsmoke, my all time favorite boulder problem (I hope that revelation doesn’t get me kicked of the Taco.) A check shows 25 posts this year. So the Taco has been getting my input and insight into climbing beyond WoS, you just didn’t know it.

Peter: “MSmith, What is it that you need right now?”

Peter, feel free to call me Mark. I don’t think I need anything at this point other than the ability to freely speak when spoken to. Is that within your scheme of things? I do react and should have the full right to be expected to react when … slander is posted about me and/or facts about me or my climbs are falsely represented, as was the case here.

Peter: “still there is seemingly nothing that can be said that will make you feel better. Only you can get over this. How are you going to do that?”

First, it’s not your problem or anyone else’s to make me feel better. And what makes you think that I don’t feel okay? Does feeling better mean not having any negative internal reactions to anything said about me? Also, does the tenor of the recent posts look to you like an attempt by the community that would lead a reasonable person to “feel better”?

The implication of what you wrote, an implication I’m sure isn’t intended, is that I can’t or shouldn’t reply to my own slandering. Here’s what I mean. I didn’t restart this thread or have any need or urge to restart it. No glee welled up in my heart when it restarted and I didn’t jump in to post. Werner sees the thread and himself has nothing novel to say (who does after 1000 posts?), but hops in anyways and uses a bunch of terms like zealously dramatized…private little world of controversy... physiological wreck…fanatical aid…you get the picture. Fine. While a response to that should be accepted by the community as reasonable, I didn’t respond to those things. But Werner goes beyond the hyper-charged words, he states that we weren't really under any pressure from the Valley community, just from two detached persons in a single event. If this is true, then the angst I have expressed on the Taco is way misplaced, a proposition Werner all but spells out. Again, the implication of your post is that I shouldn’t worry about this and should remain silent while the Taco godfather has the last, unrebutted, word.

Peter: “So here we are today, on this forum, Werner, (and I would like to think myself as well) is one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community of old.”
Riley: “People like …Werner are beloved not because of the routes they put up. It is because they can say "Hi", and mean it and not come off as an arrogent jerk or someone who thinks he is better than everybody else.”

Peter and Riley, there is a Biblical saying that goes roughly like this, ”What altruism is there when you do good to those who do good to you? Even lowlifes do that.” No, I’m not calling you lowlifes. But I am saying that to call Werner “one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community” who says “Hi” [to you] means nothing to me because that thought and care does not seem to extend one inch past Werner’s own community. There are those on the Taco who are in Werner’s community who have reached out caringly beyond it to me. But Werner is not among them.
mooch

Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
Who's up for bashing Balwin and Cooper?! Anyone?

Better yet......Batso?

I don't know any of these gentleman but I sure respect them for their vision. And truly, Richard and Mark had a vision....not to appeal to the Style Gods of the time. Although the route sounds terrifying to me, I wouldn't mind trying at least the first pitch to see first hand, Richard and Mark's vision unfold. Nevermind, shitting my pants in the process (and hopefully not on my own rope as well). :/
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
Whatever, dude. I'm not going to have a pissing (or shitting) contest with you. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Maybe the persons who suggested it was you were so affected by your obvious charm that they chose to blame you. Again, I don't really care. Just as you choose not to out the persons you say did the act, neither will I out the persons who personally told me it was you. I will say they are very well known persons in the community though.

Again, I don't care if it was you or not. I simply stated what I was told by well-known persons in the community who were in the valley at the time. Obviously, I don't *know* who it was... Only the persons who were actually there and witnessed the act know that. But I do know what I was told and repeated it here. If it's wrong, that's their bad. Again, maybe there's a reason for that. However, not knowing you, at all, nor really ever having heard of you, except for maybe your name being mentioned here on the Taco a whole 2 or 3 times (oh and your single other contribution to ST, which was to call JB a liar), I really have no reason to be "after you" or whatever you want to think/portray. Maybe if you weren't the prick you appear to be in your responses here someone wouldn't be trying to frame you, as you claim.

I said what I was told, you responded, I think we're done.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
Mark,

Looking at this new turn between old pal Dimitri and Nefwhoever, I vow to not step into this steaming pile again.

I was sincere in my post in saying I am sorry that all happened to you guys, and my clumsily expressed point was how can we move on now. I did not mean to imply that you should not be responsive, and the difference between the tone I got from Werners' post, and what you take as "slander" illustrates the point that the sensitivity is still so high, that it is better to just stay silent.

So, to the original post that got this sorry story going again, kudos to you Mark for being a great teacher! That is what I am always working to be as well, and is far more meaningful than being good at hooking, or part of the in crowd, or adept at forum scrapping or really anything else.

Peter
Magnum

Boulder climber
fresno, ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
hey Meaty, did it come out all steamy, back in 1982?
mooch

Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:35pm PT
hey Meaty, did it come out all steamy, back in 1982?


HHHHHAAAAA!!
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
"I said what I was told, you responded, I think we're done."
So you're such a putz you believe everything you're told, nuff said about your feeble brain! What you really did was just come right out and slander me with false information and then just stand by that baseless drool, f*#k off!

This is so typical of a jackass like you comes on this forum and posts innuendo that you were "told". You're full of sh#t and you know it. It isn't over you dumbass. Scoll up dumbass and look at a post from Werner, he mentions two people, I am not one of them.

And Magnum, piss off as well. You jackasses just might be surprised who did sh#t on those ropes.

There was a time when I thought maybe it would be good to apologize to the WOS crew, but after this innuendo I could only express myself the same way as before. Stupid route by a couple idiots, piss off.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
Why knott just spill the beans for fuçk's sake?

We love a good soap opera around here...
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
Why knott just spill the beans for fuçk's sake?

We love a good soap opera around here...



Just hold on, it just might happen very soon unless the person that did this gets the sack to admit it. And like I said before, I doubt it.. you know who it is!!! He did a slide show not very long ago and many here at ST attended. LOL

I gotta go, I have a life.
WBraun

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
The guy who actually sh'it on their ropes I personally ran him out of the SAR site and the Valley.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 28, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
Peter,

A generous response, and do I recall what you said (a year or so ago), even if it wasn't in my mind earlier today. Best wishes on the new year.

--Mark
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
Meaty wrote:

I gotta go, I have a life.


I do knott have a life, and don't mind saying so.

I await the truth with baited breath!
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
"There was a time when I thought maybe it would be good to apologize to the WOS crew, but after this innuendo I could only express myself the same way as before."

Interesting statement... On all kinds of fronts.

Most importantly, however, is that what I say, or really anyone else here says, has anything to do with Richard Jensen or Mark Smith. So, for you to withhold an apology to them (for what, one can only imagine/assume) is pretty spineless and pathetic. You're simply using things/persons unrelated as an excuse not to.

As far as the other folks mentioned... I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread again or any of the various threads related to the topic. The whole thing has simply gotten old and there are better things to do with my time. I do remember Bill Russell was mentioned a while ago. Someone respected in the community and posting here regularly said he was also involved. BFD.

Really, it doesn't matter f*#kall if any of us know who it was. I don't think anyone really cares or thinks a public apology is warranted. If something were to happen, the only thing that would matter would be a direct apology to Richard and Mark themselves. Anything else would be pointless, really.

And to put it so callously as yourself, since your only contributions to this forum have been to attack myself and anyone saying anything you don't like in this thread, and JB in your other "contribution" to the forum, with a bunch of childish name calling and temper tantrums..... In a language you might understand, why don't you f*#k off, you worthless sack?

Schmutzvink said "But I think lots of people took credit."
Kinda what I said above. Also concurs with what Mark and Richard have both said. Everyone wanted to be responsible back in the day. Funny how no one wants to be responsible now. But it also shows how or why folks might be saying certain people did, who didn't. Again, I don't really care. And to finally agree with Meaty on *something*, I have better things to do than worry about it.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Dec 28, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
Boys, boys!

One of the things I really love about Mark is his Heart of Passion. In a world where there are so many who are "Plain Vanilla", it is refreshing and invigorating to meet a man like Mark who is not afraid to be real, and to stand up for what he believes in, who doesn't hide behind a fake identity, and who is willing to take his lumps.

I really enjoyed my time with Mark and Richard, and what I can tell you guys here at Supertopo [who have not had the chance to meet them in person] is that they are both very cool guys, and definitely Class Acts. I do knott say this about too many people, either, but these guys have proved it for the most part by trying their best to show grace under intense pressure.

As Men of Passion though, they have a tendency to rant. And while the therapeutic benefits of ranting cannot be understated, sometimes you end up shooting yourself in the foot because you react so hard about something you care so much about. Wings of Steel was a life-altering event for Mark and Richard - they have taken much crap over it, and while there are many who will never agree with them, I think most of us have come to some sort of understanding of what they did and why, even if it is that we "agree to disagree". But it is a very sore spot on their hearts - and if you touch a sore spot on your body, sometimes you over-react. I hope Mark and Richard can let this stuff go, and try not to rant too much, especially to people with fake user names. I want you also to know that they don't rant in person, they are cool.

Identifying alleged perpetrators on an internet forum is lame. Real Men work out their differences in private. If the person who shat on their ropes is reading this, I want you to know that Mark and Richard are men who believe in forgiveness and reconciliation, as do I incidentally. If you were to approach them with an "olive branch", I believe they would be willing to talk to you, or meet with you. Time goes by, we hopefully grow up a bit, maybe we can look back on things from the past through new eyes and a heart of compassion? Maybe you regret messing up their ropes? Maybe if you just said, "I think WoS is a lame route and an ethical affront on El Cap, dudes, and I'll always feel that way, but I'm sorry for crapping on your ropes...." it would go a long way towards healing?

I found Wings of Steel to be desperately hard. I had to cheat-stick my way up the first pitch. I couldn't even do all the moves on toprope, the hooking was so hard! To do it on lead on such long runouts over such marginal gear is way too insane for this part-time climber. You've gotta be really dedicated or really psycho or something I'm not. Tom replaced all the bolts and rivets on the first [legit] pitch and I think the second pitch too [I can't recall], so the route is there for anyone to give it a shot, and I hope they do. Fifty foot falls are not a possibility, they are a certainty - you will whip a long way before you eventually figure it out - far too scary for me.
Ahwahnee Bartender

Big Wall climber
Fog Town
Dec 28, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
The El Cap Ambassador to the World has spoken ...

Respect,
Theo
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
"The El Cap Ambassador to the World has spoken ...

Respect,
Theo"

hahaha! And you thought this thread had enough tension and stress in it before... Let's just throw some fuel to the fire, eh? hah! Nice going, Theo! =)

Good stuff, Pete!
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
"Really, it doesn't matter f*#kall if any of us know who it was. I don't think anyone really cares or thinks a public apology is warranted. If something were to happen, the only thing that would matter would be a direct apology to Richard and Mark themselves. Anything else would be pointless, really."

Oh, so it doesn't matter who did the deed? Then why the f*#k did you drag my name through the mud you dickless bastard?? Piss off you moron Nefarius!


"Schmutzvink said "But I think lots of people took credit."
Kinda what I said above. Also concurs with what Mark and Richard have both said. Everyone wanted to be responsible back in the day. Funny how no one wants to be responsible now. But it also shows how or why folks might be saying certain people did, who didn't. Again, I don't really care. And to finally agree with Meaty on *something*, I have better things to do than worry about it."

Oh, you don't care but you blamed me, f*#k off you worthless dipsh#t.

Everyone wasn't running around taking credit for this incident?? Don't think so you putz, get down of your hobby horse you assf*#k, nobody really gives a sh#t about you or the WOS crew jerkoffs. If you post pure lies and then are called on it do you always look like such a putz? Again, you haven't a clue what happened, you're just repeating the lies of the WOS crew. You and your pals can go to hell.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Dec 28, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
One more good reason to hate AIDS climbing, LOL!
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
"As far as the other folks mentioned... I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread again or any of the various threads related to the topic. The whole thing has simply gotten old and there are better things to do with my time. I do remember Bill Russell was mentioned a while ago. Someone respected in the community and posting here regularly said he was also involved. BFD."

So now that you've had your pathetic ass handed to you it is old and you're done with the subject??

I am not done with your sorry ass!

And I am proud to not only withhold an apology to your f*#ktard pals but once again you can f*#k off along with them. I do remember some people bragging about pissing on your pals and I only wish you were there with them for the golden shower.

Make a baseless claim like you seem to enjoy doing but you can't handle the inevitable heat that come with your arrogance?? You're a pathetic bastard Nefarius.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
"One more good reason to hate AIDS climbing, LOL!"

Isn't that just AID climbing?
WBraun

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
So?

Who's Meaty?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
"they have a tendency to rant"

Pete, I seem to recall that you pointed that out about 2 years ago. Guess I forgot. Hey, don't you owe us a couple of TR's from last summer?
pc

climber
East of Seattle
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:27pm PT
I love this sh#t...er...thread.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
No, they have knott.

Why did Meaty delete his post identifying himself?
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
After reading your last few posts I'm simply left amused and remembering how the "tough guys" in school were never too terribly bright and always struggled with reading comprehension. Of course, that brought me to the understanding that to further the conversation with you is pretty pointless. But still....

Nigga, please..... A lot of hot air. A lot of dickless Internet tough-guy syndrome. Come try to piss on me yourself, sometime instead of wishing, f*#ktard! I'm pretty much finished with the PC worded approach, so now rather than get in an Internet shouting match with you, which is pretty silly, I've simply laid it out for you.


And now, for the easiest way to end a pointless conversation with an idiot...!
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
ST Forum newbie rcmp asks:

Who cares?

Why must you stir sh#t constantly, HK?


LOL!

Newbie - the percentage of your posts "stirring up shít" far exceed mine (on an order of magnitude).

Go find another leg to hump...

http://www.supertopo.com/forumpostsearch.html?id=7826678

http://www.supertopo.com/forumpostsearch.html?s=ratings&o=ASC&v=0&cur=10&id=7826678#list
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Dec 28, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
My guess is that meaty decided that if he were going to be a true a$$hole, he'd rather not give out his real name.

It's AIDS climbing, as in A.I.D.S., sometimes known as aquired immune deficiency syndrome, but more properly known as Ascending Idiotically, Destroying Stone.

I think this thread has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that AIDS climbing attracts very strange people.

For instance, MOST PEOPLE, given the choice, when they need to take a dump in the wild, would not go to the trouble of finding ropes to Sh!t on.


As for why anyone would question the choice a climber makes to do a new route, could it possibly be that those guys LIKED slab? Could it possibly be that slab called out to em? I've had some of my routes laughed at with the expression, "Why would you ever want to climb that, or even think of it in the first place?"

Those people can go screw themselves, of course, LOL!

Disclaimmer: Yes, I have led aids on new rock. I have cleaned and led (more clean, less lead) free hanging aids on new rock. Almost all done with modern removable pro. I have nailed pins, but no heads. The only pins (Ti) I have used were left as permanent pro on free climbs. I own one hook, a talon (didn't even know what it was called), and made one move with it, LOL! Aids is a necessary evil in my book. I'll do it to get to a free section, but doing a whole wall of aids is just insane. So are you if you love aids climbing. I'm out to do as little aids climbing as I have to, and as much free climbing as possible. As far as AIDS going free, I HATE pin scars!!! Talk about a manufactured free route, UGH.

SO, I'm not a real AIDS climber. Aids is almost as much fun as chemo therapy.

Here's an idea: One day that wings of steel thing will be freed. It's only 80 degrees, and there are little edges, after all. Perhaps a few more flakes and edges will be 'modified'. Probably someone will retro bolt it into a sport(ing) climb of sorts. Imagine all the uproar that will cause!
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
Your 16 posts on this forum seem to sum you up rather well.

'nuff said.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
Why don't you go back to lurking, Mr "long time lurker"?

So far, your ratio of bullshít to useful content is at an all-time high.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 28, 2007 - 06:46pm PT
Oh yeah - Do you remember your first post on this forum?



Your first post out of the gate knott only defended the indefensible,
it showed you had a rather turgid hard-on for me.

Again, go find another leg to hump, or go back to "long time lurking"..
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:10pm PT
Riley,

The Intifada posts were a good read. Just nothing I felt inspired to say. Well, maybe to add that I did find Intifada to be a quality line, which I don't think was recognized by some who posted. Beyer gets credit for seeing the line. It's just his tactics and ratings that are problematic (oh, and refusal to provide a topo for the SA, and lame exit to Brer Rabbit). The second pitch is a cobblestone traverse like nothing I've ever seen. I've got a great story to go with our ascent, but don't have time to share it now.

--Mark
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
"I know who shat on the ropes too. BFD. It's not like anyone needs a ticket to that party.

Yawn." rcmp

Yep, exactly. Thanks!
snyd

Sport climber
Lexington, KY
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:25pm PT
Meaty, are you going to dirty kenny's wedding?
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
When is it Chris? I would love to go!
snyd

Sport climber
Lexington, KY
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
cabo
san jose del cabo, baja
May 3rd 2008

You should see him! He looks like eminem!

You should call him.
email me and I will bust with his addy and digits.

It's been a long time bro!
Meaty

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
It would be great to see you and Kenny, I did see photo or two and he did look like Eminem. It has been a long time!

Gotta go, be back later.
WBraun

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 07:48pm PT
Dirty Kenny looking like eminem?

Chris you are projecting.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Dec 28, 2007 - 08:12pm PT
"For instance, MOST PEOPLE, given the choice, when they need to take a dump in the wild, would not go to the trouble of finding ropes to Sh!t on."

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!! I laughed out loud at that one!
snyd

Sport climber
Lexington, KY
Dec 28, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
Here's the proof Werner.
WBraun

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 09:36pm PT
LOL, OK Chris

But can he rap?

Da_Dweeb

climber
Dec 28, 2007 - 09:42pm PT
Radical,

“Point well taken and I have no problem with that to be honest.
But my job is making snap decisions about people when their lives are involved - and I'm very good at it..
So I'm confident I'm probably right or at least partially right.
Easy to be loved when your a teacher or leader and that is the point of my post.”

You know what, that’s fair. I don’t agree with you, but on both our parts that’s unlikely to change and probably won’t be able to change outside of real life interactions. I would also argue the point that teaching and leadership are more difficult than your initial appraisal, but ultimately that’s not what I came to post about in the first place. Thank you for your concession to not speculate publicly about Mark in absence of first hand experience. I do wish you well. =)

Snyd,
Holy crap! Is that the real Slim Shady?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 28, 2007 - 09:56pm PT
If he can't rap, does he just downclimb?


My comment about "nobody" thinking of freeing the Big Slab in 1982 should have been more at, "Nobody had made a serious attempt at freeing the line". In other words, there wasn't a bolt belay anchor at the top of a first pitch.

I guess they could have belayed and retreated from hooks.
Peyton Hassinger

Big Wall climber
Raleigh, NC
Jul 15, 2008 - 01:29pm PT
"Incidentally, where are the tall claims of clean/hammerless ascents of Zodiac these days?"

Pete: FYI my brother and a friend did a clean ascent of Zodiac shortly after the Hubers cleaned most of the fixed gear. It is do-able.
MisterE

Trad climber
My Inner Nut
Nov 11, 2008 - 09:22am PT
Bump
MisterE

Trad climber
Canoga Porn, CA
Aug 15, 2009 - 01:30am PT
I gotta bump this again - one of my top 10 threads ever.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 15, 2009 - 01:48am PT
The definitive tell-all thread is at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=518116
dogtown

climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
Aug 15, 2009 - 07:07am PT
Look, the bottom line is this; Mark & Richard’s mistake was they were outsiders from So Cal. And didn’t spend the time necessary blowing,asking and begging the Valley boy’s (SAR) aka the stone Nazis of the time, for permission to do the route that none of them had the ball’s to do in the first place. THEY JUST DID IT ! And it just pissed off the whole little valley world.

I was there! I heard all the bullshit first hand and was a eyewitness.


Oh and for all you as#@&%e that don’t know what the f*#k you talking about and weren't there.


Blow Me. You know who you are!

zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:07am PT
So, has there been a second ascent?

Did Ammon and PP do this route?

Trying to find a TR.
Btown

Mountain climber
Grand Junction, CO
Mar 12, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
Wow, I have now been reading this topic for like three or four hours. Fascinating story, really. Now I admit I dont really have much to offer here. I am not an aid climber and, sadly, have never even been to Yosemite. It seems like a big portion of this argument could be solved with a SA. Now, much of this back-and-forth was going on in 2005 and I am writing now in 2011. Has anyone repeated this route? I am guessing not because I haven't heard anything about it. I imagine news like that would spread quickly.

Side note: I read a funny April Fool's post (I cant remember if it was here or on Mountain Project) that claimed two spaniards climbed WoS free, spray painting the good holds all the way. HaHa!!
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:28am PT
If the crappers hadn't done their thing, had the 'locals' accepted the climb, we would have had other people accepting that it was possible in their minds, and would today have seen not only a second and third ascent but more routes along these lines...





Just like the 4-minute mile.

If someone had crapped in Roger Bannister's shoes and influenced society to think that it was no fun, bad style, or too scary to run then it could have been at least 30 years before anyone else would have seconded a 4-minute mile. Like sport/bouldering etc, people simply would have started running off-road, or uphill without fully pushing the limits of track running.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
What an amazing time for this thread to suddenly come to life.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
The crapping was over the top. but somehow the four minute mile analogy seems a bit specious. imaginative though.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
I'd like to know who the crapper was. I suspect from all the secrecy, it wasn't your average joe-blow climber but someone who was a bit "respected".
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
What an amazing time for this thread to suddenly come to life.


Thinking about a go, Pete? Get some hot-shot like Honnold or Caldwell to free the bottom section and you take over up top.

Get 'er done!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Say it. I never even heard a rumor of who it was. That always surprised me.

You know, if you're going to state you opinion so strongly, what could you call that person who keeps his deed a secret except a hollow coward?
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
If someone crapped on me intentionally, they would be kidnapped in their sleep and forced to eat my poo. Crapping on someones rope is vile and disgusting. Out the crapper and make him account for his shame.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Dr F, be chill, no need to call out the Bro's. . .Anyway I was at the base and needed to relive myself. . .
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
I don't care who did it, although I've known since that summer.

I want to know how they did it. I mean, saving it up, holding in and letting it out at just the right time? That's takes talent, serious talent.

Performance art, really. Like a real-time spackle fresco.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
Three Locals, two shitters, one of them couldn't go as he'd been to a cheesefest the night before, he dumped a can of beans instead.

As to how? ever had breakfast at the Cafe?
Mimi

climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
It wasn't a can of beans, it was chili!

I am Spartacus!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 13, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Pretty darn sick if you ask me. Any shrink will tell you that public crappers have serious issues.....
Prod

Trad climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
I've been told by 4 different people who the shitters were, all 4 had the same names, but I can't remember who they were.

Didn't one of them actually appoligize to the FA's?

Pretty moronic. If it was me they sh#t on, those f*#kers would have bad press until their dying day. I'd go out of my way to let the world know who they were and how they acted... Forever. Wives kids parents friends employeers enemies etc.

Prod.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Mar 13, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
It's pretty lame that the shitters hide, If you are a badass local and have a problem, why don't you walk up to the guys you have a problem with and face them . Tell them how it works at your "beach" if they don't comply- you pound 'em- Don't play bullSH#T games and then don't claim it- lame
WBraun

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:04am PT
30 years and you stupid people are still hashing out this sh'it.

You're as stupid as the sh'tters were.

And for your information they did face them "Face to face".

I never went to that stupid "face to face meeting".

I didn't didn't have anything to do with any of this stupid sh'it to warrant me needing to even go there.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:13am PT
I did't bring this thread back - just a comment - you still seem to be playing as well - stupid is as stupid does LT. DAN
nature

climber
Mysore Karnataka India
Mar 14, 2011 - 09:42am PT
more lies and slander from crowley.

though I might be a chicken I'm certainly knott a yoga hippie
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Mar 14, 2011 - 10:23am PT
(best TV cop since Jack Webb)

The dude could sing too. Tore up a few Broadway musicals BITD. He was no rope sh!tter.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
One of the great scandals, mysteries and cover ups in American climbing history. Deserves some follow up. Someone with the sack and skill to repete the route, find out who the shitters werer and write a book with lots of cool photos....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 14, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
The only way to prevent rope-shitting at the base of el cap is for the Park to place giant kitty litter boxes at the start of each climb...I'm sure the guys or girls who crapped on those ropes couldn't hold back any longer....Why does everyone think it was intentional....?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 14, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
Funny how some sophmoric drunken prank 28 years ago can grow into a major drama ...good entertainment value though
marv

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Mar 14, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
30 years and you stupid people are still hashing out this sh'it.

You're as stupid as the sh'tters were.

And for your information they did face them "Face to face".

I never went to that stupid "face to face meeting".

I didn't didn't have anything to do with any of this stupid sh'it to warrant me needing to even go there.

Normally I'm indifferent to, or mildly dislike, Werner's posts. Not here.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
i just hope, if and when the 2nd does come along, that someone with opportunity (and perhaps a strong sense of irony) craps on some of their gear at the base...









just to keep the percentages going is all.
Btown

Mountain climber
Grand Junction, CO
May 19, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
Haha, nobody had commented on this thread in almost two years until I posted back in march. Sorry for bringing this back up. I was sick one night and stumbled across this thread (or series of threads). It was amazingly interesting to me. Especially since Richard and Mark first did this before I was born and yet still the tale lives on. I spent four or five hours reading almost every post on the thread. As a climber with a degree in writing how could I resist such an interesting story with complex characters, numerous layers of conflict, and a complicated, unresolved, almost Post Modern "ending"?

I guess I can see both sides of this story in some way. From the local perspective, I understand the irritation when an outsider comes into your well-established scene and decides to put-up a (major) new route in their own fashion, disregarding the established local customs. There is a sort of arrogance and self-entitlement to that. Not that that is what Richard and Mark did, exactly, but I could see how people got that impression. On the other hand, here are two guys with some big wall skill (I think it's safe to say) who felt compelled to leave their own mark on the greatest big wall in the world. Haven't many of us at some point felt a similar sort of ambition? When they arrived on the scene they were met with unexpected levels of hostility, scrutiny, and downright immaturity (sorry but crapping on someone's climbing rope is pretty middle schoolerish). When they completed their route, instead of receiving the glory they'd hoped, they instead were deeply criticized for next two or three decades. Wow!!!

What amazes me the most is how much bitterness over this there still seems to be. I think we can all look back at ourselves three decades ago (or for those of us that havent been alive that long, even one decade ago) and shake our heads at the things we did and said. We should be able to forgive ourselves and each other for the past. You know what would be great is if Richard and Mark and whoever the Shitter is could all come out and admit the truth and have a good laugh about it together because for God's sake, it was 29 years ago! But alas, what do I know? I wasnt and still am not involved in the Yosemite scene, so I maybe I dont understand the local culture.

One last word, and I'll go back to passive lingering on this thread. Somebody needs to get up there and SA this route! I know many people criticize WoS as a crappy, slabby route or whatever, but it seems like, given the amount of attention this route has generated over the years, an ascent would be well worth the time and adventure. And besides, maybe this is just me being a big wall gumby, but it's El Cap. How bad can the route be? I guess as the climbing world shifts away from the glory days of big wall aid and towards the new age of free climbing a SA of WoS gets less and less likely with each passing season.

Anyway, I apologize for the lengthy post and for bringing this topic back to the top yet again. Cheers from Colorado, and Happy Climbing to all.
Btown

Mountain climber
Grand Junction, CO
May 19, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
Actually there are four threads and none of them had been posted on in that amount of time. I couldn't care less about "striking gold". I actually havent even been back to this site since then. You seem rather unpleasant. I admitted to being a newb and I dont care. I love to climb and that's all that matters to me. If you dislike this thread so much, why even post? If my post offends you so much then you need to get a more interesting life
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 19, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Ending? What ending? We will only have a partial resolution after someone makes a second ascent.

One of Richard's and Mark's loudest detractors stated a few years ago that he would make the second ascent, but he hasn't. Queries repeated from time to time have resulted in nothing but crickets.

Rumour has it another team is hoping to have a go at it sooner rather than later.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 19, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
Who was that again, Pete? Why didn't he go up on it? I seem to remember something about someone being very forceful about it....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 19, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
One of Richard's and Mark's loudest detractors stated a few years ago that he would make the second ascent, but he hasn't.

buy him the snaileye t-shirt....
WBraun

climber
May 19, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
The rooot (route) will never be done again.

It's gone.

All the hook moves have been washed away ......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
May 19, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
One of Richard's and Mark's loudest detractors stated a few years ago that he would make the second ascent, but he hasn't. Queries repeated from time to time have resulted in nothing but crickets.

Maybe's the ex-participants have have moved on and decided that there are more important things in life.

They've moved on.

Looks like the peanut gallery is trying to goad the ex-participants into resuming the fight.

I hope they don't fall for it.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
May 19, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
WTF does it matter? The end of days is in two anyway.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 19, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
All the hook moves have been washed away ......

Finally, an honest assessment of the outlandish scale of the 'chiseling' made during the FA. My guess is they were washed away a year or two after the FA.
That's Papajoto to you son!!!!!

Social climber
Oatmeal Arizona
May 19, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
I love it when a WOS thread comes back to life!!!!!!!
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 1, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
FACT: 2 pitches down bitches! Ammon & Kait
climbingcook

Trad climber
sf
Jul 1, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
sweet!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Hey, if you want to climb on the Giganto Slab, Have at it.
I dunno. Cheers, though.
Gene

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:44am PT
Dang. In this weather that slab must feel like the world's biggest tanning oven.

My best to all involved.
g
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:04am PT
FACT; Nice :)
SofCookay

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:09am PT
FACT: New 3/8 inch bolts on first pitch of WOS. Coincidence?
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:19am PT
I am pretty sure I saw several new 3/8 inch bolts on P.1 of that route a few weeks ago, and just brought it up to Tom Evans a few days ago to try to figure out what was going on.

Ammon and Kait, are you replacing the rivets with 3/8 inch bolts on this route?

Kate
SofCookay

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:32am PT
Not a troll - the bolts are definitely there - shiny and new.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:35am PT
I have never trolled anyone on the internet, and I use my real name. I was up there to climb Lurking Fear a few weeks ago, and several shiny 3/8 inch bolts were on the first 50 feet of P1.

I thought maybe someone was be trying to free it, and asked Tom about it at the bridge two days ago.

All he had to say was "Its not the usual suspect."

Kate
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:40am PT
Which "P1" were the bolts on? I ask because AFAIK, there are two starts/variations (and thus two"P1") of the route.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:46am PT
It is the "real" start, the more direct first pitch.

-Kate.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:56am PT
Hmm the plot thickens once again. Agree bad form by adding the new hardware
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:05am PT
Piss on me Pete and Tom were up there years ago as well. You could hear Pete's hammer from Moby Dick drill'n away. Ammon made it to the first 2-3? pitches and Pete used Ammon's rope to TR the pitches. Sounds like Pete put some weak sauce in his breakfast that morning. TR Ammon's rope to climb A5 is like shooting a tiger in a zoo. Where's the challenge??

Any Drill'n ask Pete. Ammon and Kait are not up there drill'n on the route.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:08am PT
Adding or replacing? There is a difference.

Prod.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:11am PT
Pete was up there with Richard and Mark (and their permission), replacing the original (old) rivits with rivits IIRC a few years ago. The route was still sporting those same rivits at the end of last year.

Is it possible that Pete was up there this year? I don't think so. However, nothing is impossible. Still, the bolts were up just two days after Pete came down from the epic with David, because I carried loads and saw the bolts the day after the rain stopped.

I cannot imagine that Ammon would do this without FA permission, anyway. We will have to wait to hear from them or from whoever did it to know.

Kate
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:18am PT
No one's EVER shown outright contempt for Richard or Mark before, have they?
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:21am PT
I agree, there must to be more to this story than the current team (or someone working with them) bolting without FA permission. I know one other guy on this site that tried the route and claimed the first 2 pitches two years ago, but he left the rivets, did not replace with bolts.

Maybe some other attempt was about to happen, they replaced the hardware and the current team jumped at the opportunity?

Kate
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 11:41am PT
If this was all done so WITHOUT the approval of either Richard or Mark, then there is not nor will there ever be a true SA of "WINGS OF STEEL". The route has been killed and no longer exists.

Oh well. The book, let alone a possible new chapter, has been closed shut and thrown into the fire. Sad day indeed and the true end of an era.


Did you take your pill today? A bit mellow dramatic without knowing many if any of the facts involved.

Prod.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
There is a lot of conjecture out there, very few facts. I think I'll wait to hear from Kait and Ammon before getting my panties all in a wad.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
So you sleep with a stuffed animal and wear panties?

Marks post brings more questions than answers. ;)

-Kate.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
The true me, revealed!

;-)
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
Maybe that sackless drone pal of the FA party will not be such a coward and delete the post were he accused me of shitting on those ropes. I have the screen shot, what a load of defamation! Nefarius is as much a coward as those two chumps. Go f*#k yourself Randy!

Edit: Oh! So Randy didn't delete the post accusing me of shitting on those ropes! Well isn't that special!

All this lame ass talk about getting the FA party's permission regarding the fixed gear/bolts on aid or free routes is pathetic, people are free to do whatever they please and hear the music afterwards. Loads of climbs in Yosemite both free and aid that have bolts etc. placed by repeating parties.
Permission? Bullsh#t, no one needs permission to chop, add, steal hangers....it goes on all the time.

When anyone leaves fixed gear/bolts it is no longer their property, it is abandoned. If someone drills loads of bolts on WOS so what.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
Maybe that sackless drone pal of the FA party will not be such a coward and delete the post were he accused me of shitting on those ropes. I have the screen shot, what a loads of defamation! Nefarius is as much a coward as those two chumps. Go f*#k yourself Randy!

Edit: Oh! So Randy didn't delete the post accusing me of shitting on those ropes! Well isn't that special!

All this lame ass talk about getting the FA party's permission regarding the fixed gear/bolts on aid or free routes is pathetic, people are free to do whatever they please and hear the music afterwards. Loads of climbs in Yosemite both free and aid that have bolts etc. placed by repeating parties.
Permission? Bullsh#t, no one needs permission to chop, add, steal hangers....it goes on all the time.

When anyone leaves fixed gear/bolts it is no longer their property, it is abandoned. If someone drills loads of bolts on WOS so what.


Preserved here, for all time. Also pinned up on my fridge.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
We haven't drilled anything. All natural hooking. Pretty spicy... I think the bolts are from Pete a few years ago. Ammon & Kait
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
Good news.

Still, I don't think the bolts were from Pete and the FA team, I'm pretty sure they're new. Climb safe, Kait and Ammon.

-Kate.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
If someone added bolts then it just verifies the FA was a pretty ballsy affair and someone wasn't prepared to sack up to the same level on the route.
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
The new generation of GYMER FU's and fuk any ethics that once were the soul of the rock.

No more soul. None. All gone.

The Chief

Please do not over-generalize the current "new" generation. Many younger climbers have the same respect for ethics, soul of the rock...etc. as those much older.
I've had run-out climbs bolted over 20 years ago on rap by climbers the same generation as me, it's just selective outrage by a very few people that seem to make noise. It isn't a generational thing, it is just fact, when you place a bolt it is no longer your property, it becomes part of the public domain. Someone has the same right to chop it as you had placing it.
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
"Dance and spray all ya want. The comments above state the reality of my post. The ongoing "Tick Mark" thread just adds to the lack of soul. Whatever.

OVER AND OUT!"



No spray, just the clear reality. Nothing new or having to do with a younger generations as well.

Funny how I've never heard a peep from you and many others about climbs I did the FA of that were bolted over on rap?? It has absolutely nothing to do with ones age/generation. No one has control over others actions when it comes down to placing bolts on existing climbs or chopping bolts, and it happens all the time. Nothing new. Many examples of just those facts, examples that have nothing to do with the current younger generation(s) as they weren't even born yet.

Again, no spray. I can name climbs with R ratings bolted over on rap over twenty years ago that have nothing to do with folks under 30 years old.
I read the word "travesty" from you Chief? Why is your outrage so selective?
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 2, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Spicy Hooking Nice
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
Pete, texting from a "bathtub" atop horsetail falls assures me that he hasn't been up there and sends good vibes to Ammon and Kait.

The moral of this story?




Filter your water, folks.

Then filter it again.

:)

-Kate.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
Filter your water, folks.

Then filter it again.

Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
You're clearly as delusional as Nefarius.

My question wasn't about WOS and your effort, but about why you're so selective with outrage over equal ethical questions.
You've got a hard on about a few bolts on WOS, so why aren't you equally outraged over other climbs with bolts added by repeating parties?

How many climbs on El Cap do NOT have bolts from later ascents? Why are all of those bolts NOT a travesty in your opinion but just a select few on WOS??
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Wow. Did Prod really say "Mellow Dramatic?"

Now there's a good name for a route somewhere...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
I'm surprised after this many posts on the topic the thing sprouts bolts and no one knows who did the deed? Pretty remarkable - now we have mystery bolters and shitters. Seems like both took about the same amount of courage.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
I'm certain there were no bolts added, just replaced. I remember Pete replacing these a few years ago and thinking it was strange then. I think Mark and Rich were there, maybe they can chime in. Ammon
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
Healyje,

No mystery whatsoever who sh#t on their ropes, one of them posts here regularly. But Randy Wenzel sure thought he'd be special and claim I did because Mark and Richard spewed that lie, along with a few other delusional chumps, for years. Repeating a lie enough so after a while it becomes fact in the feeble tiny brains of lemmings like Nefarius, what a crock of sh#t but no surprise considering the deep ignorance involved.

No mystery at all.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Oops Ksolem,

I guess it is 1 word... melodramatic. But still The Chief is enough to make me want to puke.

I agree that my version would make a good route name. Get on it.

Prod.
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Chief,
not even a good effort of not answering my question, your gibberish is rubbish.

I'm not justifying bringing any route down to any particular level, I'm just explaining to your ignorant ass what has and will continue to go on. You've got absolutely no control, nor does anyone else, of someone places or chops bolts. I don't really care if WOS sees more bolts, YAWN! Are there any routes on El Cap that haven't seen bolts from repeating parties, can you name one? Probably not. eh?

Again, why is it a travesty for bolts added to WOS but not so for just about every other climb on El Cap or any other cliff in the world.
Very, very simple question.

What you call a justification I call reality. You still cannot answer a simple question. So in your twisted logic other climbs that have bolts added are just simply irrelevant? Just not part of the discussion?
Selective outrage is weak!
Meaty

climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
Chief

Nope. Spewing gibberish is not only weak but pathetic.

Why are all the bolts added to virtually every big wall climb not a travesty but the bolts added to WOS a huge travesty?

I know what soul is, but you still can't answer a simple question.

So what you're saying is if one is as ignorant as you and claims loads of soul, you can spray bolts on any climb, just not WOS?
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 2, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Fer f*#ks sake Chief, take the dogs for a walk.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 2, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
It matters because the route is so contentious which means the SA should be done as the route stood in order to know what the real deal with the FA was. So far it's only seen SA bolters and bailers.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Yo Healyje,

I agree that WOS was before it's time, and I look forward to a real SA. So far from what I've read, we are not sure that the route has been bolted. What we do know is that there are bolts in the general area.

Isn't Grossman heading up there some time soon?

Just out of curiosity, who is Meaty?

Chief,

Grow up, what you lack in rationality you more than make up for in tenaciousness. Is that a good thing?

Prod.
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
Jul 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
I hope that whoever added the bolts, had the courtesy to ask Richard and Mark for permission to do so.

Did this happen on the FFA of the Dihedral? Or Arcturus? Or whatever?

The times have changed and so have the ethics. The only constant is the wall, which will be here long after the debate has died.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 2, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
"Mellow Dramatic?" Now there's a good name for a route somewhere...

It's mine I dibs it. Wuz up there today. Perfect! Thanks

Oops Ksolem,

I guess it is 1 word... melodramatic. But still The Chief is enough to make me want to puke.

Kris has first call if he wants it, otherwise it's mine. The Taco comes through again! Woot!

Thanks Prod............"Mellow Dramatic"...wow! I was on that route today, it's prefect. Will send and name. Good stuff.

The funniest thing said in a long time was just said by Kate just upthread...ROTFLMAO! Am I the only one reading this stuff? Thanks Kate!!!! LOL! Pete's hanging out in the tubs, filter yer water ....twice..Guffuawwwww!!!
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 2, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
Hello McFly. Did you guys miss the post where she says that she is certain no bolts were added, just replaced?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 2, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
It's all yours Couch, but...




Yer gonna die!!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 2, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Sorry I am behind on introductions; I’ll try harder.

Pilgrims, I bring you The Chief:
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 3, 2011 - 12:23am PT
The self-appointed jury, having heard little of the evidence, nor testimony from the defendants, has reached a verdict.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:00am PT
Werner & Ammon - What standard of Truth?? Seems you've just perpetuated the same rumors that were spead at the "time of the project" and more. Fact is Mark & Richard are 7th Day Adventists (Not The Same thing!!). All the sh#t bags at the base were from jerks throwing sh#t bags from the Aquarian Wall and adjacent walls. Mark & Richard had to establish an alternate start as some "Valley Locals" jugged their ropes, cut the ropes down and then sh#t on them (the ropes). Is that what you're calling "independent free will?" Sounds more like harassment. How about you two jump on the route and give us a TR at ST!!
Mimi

climber
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Meaty, proud of you for speaking out. Kids today just don't know.

The Chief, WTF?! Do you think this is a free climb or something? Total awe? Hilarious. Did you start duct-taping hooks during this episode? Like Pete.

You're no different than Bwana and Skid. The fact that you took three days on that length of climbing makes you a bafoon. I mean really. That get up Peter posted is evidence enough.

I hope Ammon does well and finally puts this nonsense to rest. The damned route has been done for all practical purposes by several parties. I want to see it mostly freed by some awesome slab climber. It's all about the haters vs. the lovers on this one.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:11am PT
...or the shiters vs. the shitees
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:17am PT
Mimi, will you be belaying Steve?
Mimi

climber
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:23am PT
No plans for that, Joe. Contrary to earlier statements, Steve never planned on getting on the route. We did discuss climbing Horse Chute and taking a look and recording any evidence and then rapping and chopping it along the way. But then I scored this really good job and those plans fell through. Oh, and for the record, you are one of the lovers. You are one of the lovers, healy. You are one of the lovers, healy.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Hello Chief - that's an awesome photo from Zion. Hope you recall our trip up Touchstone Wall at a later date.
Peter Haan - You are late with the introductions! Where are the photos of Meaty & drljefe? Where's the equity?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:56am PT
Yep, any time someone rattles the locals I'm a lover for sure. Funny as he'll.
Mimi

climber
Jul 3, 2011 - 01:59am PT
You ought to know being a local and all.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 3, 2011 - 02:12am PT
What a sh!t show.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 3, 2011 - 05:35am PT
Had I rolled in I would have done just what they did - eyeball something and get on it. Anything that inspires this much whining and could be washed away by a couple of years of rain is a solid go at the place in my book.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 3, 2011 - 11:24am PT
still festering after all these years...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 4, 2011 - 02:39am PT
Greetings from the Centre of the Universe.

It is truly amazing to me how one bit of misinformation completely sets some of you guys off, when you have no idea at all what the actual situation is. At least there are a few cool heads above who suggest waiting until the facts are presented, which you will read below. It is also amusing that the most vehement responses come from those hiding under anonymous user names - how lame is that? Instead, why don't you come down to the bridge or walk up to the base and we'll have a beer and talk face to face? If you're going to talk sh|t about someone, at least have the balls to use your real name.

Anyway, here's what happened:

Kate R. walked by the base of Wings of Steel, and saw bolts and rivets up there. These bolts appear new, but they are not. Kate was wrong, and repeated her wrong assumption several times in the thread above. If she wasn't my friend I might even be pissed at her... {wink}

The fixed anchors that Kate R. sees are the bolts and rivets that Tom Kasper and I replaced according to Mark Smith's and Richard Jensen's specs back [I think] in spring 2006. We replaced old bolts with new, old rivets with new, on the first two pitches of the original start. We replaced old quarter-inch bolts with 3/8" bolts, but per Mark and Richard's request we used the same kind of "rivets" that they used in order to preserve the sportiness of the climb. "Our rivets were never intended to catch falls," they told us, "so please don't put in the usual Rawl split shafts which are too strong. Instead use what we used." I wasn't sure and remain unsure if this was the right thing to do or knott, but that's what we did because Richard and Mark asked us to.

I'm sorry, but I can't tell you what you call the damn things! They look like a little mushroom, and you drive a nail through the centre of the thing to seat it in a quarter-inch hole. The box said that they were rated to about 400 or 450 pounds in concrete, and I suspect they might be a shade stronger in granite. So we took out their old ones, patched the hole with epoxy, drilled new holes next to them and placed the same kind of rivet-thingy, but new ones. Anyone know what these things are called? For the record, you can drill out a quarter-inch hole to 3/8, but you can't reuse a quarter-inch hole with a quarter-inch rivet. Hence the patch and redrill.

So on my attempt to climb WoS, I basically cheat-sticked my way up the first pitch, because the hooking was far too hard for me. I've done some sporting hooking on routes like Jolly Roger and BUBS and so on, but the hooking on Wings of Steel is much much harder. I just couldn't do it. The rock is very smooth, and the route-finding desperate. On other routes, it's pretty obvious what you have to hook, but not on the slab/low-angle face of WoS, where virtually any nubbing is a potential hook placement, and almost none is bomber. Towards the end of the first pitch it is super-serious, with ankle-destroying ledges that my bone doctor told me I had best avoid henceforth.

After "climbing" the first pitch, we asked Ammon's brother Gabe for permission to jug Ammon's rope to the top of the second pitch so we could replace the bolts and rivets on that pitch, too, which we did. Ammon was on the route before us, having climbed the variation start, which Mark and Richard used to regain their highpoint after their first two pitches were chopped. The variation start comes in from the left, and joins the original start partway up the second pitch.

Anyway, that's how I left the route, and I haven't been back since. Too scary for me, mate. If you dig through the McTopo forum and the thousands of WoS posts, somewhere you will find a detailed description of our anchor replacements.

Anyway, I spoke to Ammon and Kait B. on the bridge today, and they told me that they have climbed and fixed the first two pitches on the original start. Ammon said the hooking was really tough [no kidding!] and if I remember correctly he told me it took him six hours to lead the first pitch.

The part that I really just couldn't figure out is the bulge in the first pitch that is only about thirty feet up. The rock is so incredibly smooth here - and much steeper than the rest of the slab - but Ammon told me he hooked it using a modified Talon hook that he had filed down to a sharper point. It took him quite a few falls to figure out. [Unlike Ammon, I am quite afraid to fall] So it's good to know my new bolts are doing their job and getting some use!

Ammon also told me he thought the top of the first pitch was even harder. I think I figured out those hook moves, but what I remember is the nasty ledges. He said if you blew it up there towards the end of the first you would take a long and serious fall.

I asked Ammon about the start of the second pitch, which Mark and Richard told me was the crux, where Mark [I think] took a huge Factor 2 fall past the belay, completely destroying the lead rope, curling it into coils because so much heat was dissipated through so little nylon. Ammon said he didn't find that bit too bad, but above the start of the second pitch, the hooking sequence was really difficult, requiring several long falls to figure out, and that pretty much every hook placement he made was from his topsteps. So damn hard climbing all the way up the original first two pitches, that's for sure.

Interestingly, Ammon said he thought the variation start was equally hard, which surprised me.

My friend Kate, who may need to see an eye doctor, sent me a text yesterday when Neil and I were enjoying a bath in the creek above Horsetail Falls after our 12-day ascent of Atlantic Ocean Wall. She told me people were writing stuff on McTopo about WoS, and I reminded her that I had replaced a bunch of bolts and rivets a few years earlier. She replied telling me she was 100 percent certain the bolts were new. As it turns out, she was 100 percent wrong, although neither of us knew this at the time of texting. Anyway, mistakes happen. I'm not beating her up [much].

So when I saw Kait B. and Ammon this aft, because of Kate R's text I asked them if they had added or replaced any gear, and they assured me they hadn't. So no drilling, no enhancing, no cheating, a legit ascent of the original first two pitches using the bolts and rivets that Tom and I replaced. The original first two pitches may be the hardest on the route, which bodes well for a complete second ascent. I'm sure rootin' for 'em!

Ammon told me they had 14 gallons of water up there, and I suggested they grab more because I think it's going to be pretty hot on the slab. It would be a darn shame for them to run out of water. They're going to be blasting tomorrow they said, so good on them! Ammon has brought some rivets [I forgot to ask him what kind] to replace the "batheads" that Mark and Richard drilled and filled with heads because they dropped their bag of rivets. I forgot to ask him if he brought 3/8" bolts to replace the old quarter-inchers, so we'll have to wait to ask him.

Certainly, if anyone knows what he's doing when climbing El Cap, and how to properly replace bolts and rivets, it's Ammon McNeely. So you've got the right man [and woman] on the job. I wish I could stick around to watch, but I've got to get home.

Man, I sure wish Tom Evans were still around to photograph their climb, but Dave Turner told me Tom was leaving today. Randy, are you going to get up there?? Hopefully someone will be around who can tell us how they're doing.

Anyway, hope this clears up the confusion.

Cheers and beers,
Pete

Go Kait and Ammon! Send that damn route!

P.S. One observation I made this spring when David and I were flailing and bailing in the snow from Lost World is the huge stream of water that flows down the centre of the Wings of Steel slab. It is particularly evident this spring with the wet weather, which Mark and Richard told me was similar to the conditions the year they made the first ascent. Remember how their detractors accused them of leaving a stream of piss and sh|t below their portaledge? Wankers.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 4, 2011 - 02:42am PT
Lot of keyboard warriors here hiding behind anonymous names. Go do some climbing negative nancy's.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:00am PT
Great! Problem solved. Let's move on to the next topic.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:11am PT
Feverishly following this SA attempt....
Please keep us posted.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 4, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Thanks Pete.

Rant over.


Good fortunes to Ammon and Kait.

Over and out!

Sorry about the rock throwing Chief. It's pretty proud that you made a go at this BITD.

Prod.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Jul 4, 2011 - 10:59am PT
Hey Pete:

Thanks for the clear up, and sorry for the PITA, everyone. Still, I have been to the base of this route 15-20 times (on other approaches) in the last two years, every time struggling to even see the pro in the past two years. How I missed it so often with so may fatty 3/8 inch bolts in the first 50 feet is beyond me. I could never find the friggin route and had to spot it by locating the heads 15 feet up, which are now sandwiched between shiny bolts.

Anyway, sorry for the trouble, I care a lot about this route because its like one of those untouchable things that I don't feel like I could send, and I about fell over the first time I went to the base this year.

Apparently I think about it a little too much, and examine it with very, very bad eyes. :(

Back to lurking.

-Kate.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:34am PT
Okay, there are some facts, thanks Pete, NOW you all can get on with your detracting and wanking with an informed opinion.

Me? Well I'm wishing Kait and Ammon good luck, have fun and be safe (given the circumstances).
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:45am PT
It seems to me there was
a monetary reward for the second ascent...

Good luck Ammon!
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Ya Jefe,

I do recall a bounty threrad for the SA. Good luck finding that thread.

Prod.
Gene

climber
Jul 4, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
I do recall a bounty threrad for the SA.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/966435/Official-WoS-Bounty-Thread
MisterE

Social climber
Bouldering the Gnar
Jul 4, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Awesome. Thanks for parting the bullsh#t, Pete.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 4, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Gene - awesome finding that thread! It will be great to see folks actually putting their money where their mouths were.

LOL that old posts can knott be deleted...
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 4, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
It'll be interesting to see how the people on the different sides of this discussion comport themselves upon the completion of Kait and Ammon's ascent and verdict.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 4, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
Ammon and Kait are both skilled and experienced climbers, including many ascents of El Cap. A question - has either of them previously taken a position as to the grate WoS controversy? Heisenberg reaffirmed that what is seen depends in part on the viewpoint of the seer. Climbers who know about the route's history but have an open mind may "see" whatever they encounter quite differently than climbers who have already made up their minds - not forgetting that 30 years of weather, and intervening attempts, may have changed what's there anyway.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 4, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
I have definitely wondered about the "repeatability" of Wings of Steel, specifically because of the erosional effects of water running down the slab. But if Ammon can climb the first two pitches - of both starts - in good style, then the rest of the route should be climbable. It will be good of him to replace fixed drilled anchors, and also to correct the first ascensionists' mistakes where they had to place bat-heads.

After they dropped their bag of rivets, I am wondering why the FA-ists chose to put heads in the holes, instead of just drilling bathook holes? Was the rock overhanging at this point? I seem to remember it was late in the route, just before they joined Aquarian. I saw some stuff coming in from the right when I was on Aquarian last fall.

The viewpoint that Ammon has shared with me is that Wings of Steel is a sick hard bitchin' route, and I emphatically concur. If it were easy, it would have been repeated in its entirety by now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
Now we're talking, someone an objective SA by someone without old prejudices. I'll have to figure out how to deliver the goods I put up once the deed is done. Looking forward to the trip report. And given Ammon previously said it wasn't his cup of tea:

Ammon: "From what I have seen, the climbing is very challenging, BUT, it is very boring as well (to me). It took me a couple of hours to figure out where to go on the second pitch. I was standing in my aiders for twenty-five minutes trying to figure out what to do. To me, that is boring. From what I did see on the first two pitches was: It is NOT a bolt ladder like I previously thought. They used every possible features to climb the slab. No lack of balls, either. I took some pretty good rides and was impressed with how far they made their run-outs."

Something about it must have nagged on him in the intervening months for him to get back on now.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
I offered Kait and Ammon a carry, but they said they had things well in hand. Ammon and Kait, beer and pizza from me this fall!

If you found an edge the size of a dime more than a few times on the first pitch, you have better eyes and fingers than me. Those edges are scary-sick-microscopic-insane. Gads, getting sweaty hands just thinking about it. Where's my chalkbag? Oh right, I don't own one any more.

Mark and Richard agree with the idea above regarding rivets not being able to hold falls. However such rivets might well hold falls when clipped using a Yates Scream Aid, which deploys at a constant force of about 275 pounds.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
Well, whatever the hell is still left there on the rock, enough of it is left there to climb. At least by Ammon. Surely not me!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 4, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
The nearest comparison to what's happening is the Dawn Wall. Robbins and Lauria repeated it in early 1971, soon after the first ascent. Robbins, at least, had made up his mind before even starting to climb - taking six cold chisels is pretty convincing proof of that. There had been no intervening ascents or attempts, and little time, so the route was in its original state. Robbins had the courage to change his mind part way up.

Another thing to recall is that standards, techniques and equipment have changed in the last 29 years. Even if it's all hooking, there have been changes in the types of hooks available, perhaps the metal, and things like taping down hooks. Did anyone do the latter in 1982?

The intervening 29 years, and some attempts or partial ascents, somewhat muddy the waters. Still, it will be interesting to hear what an apparently objective party finds and reports on.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 4, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
There USED to be a stack of them on The Column.
Ahem. Hey, I dunno. Z-macs aren't good fallin' gear, but they pass Body weight just fine. Only a user, not a Placer. Or replacer. Or OVER replacer.
Nevermind.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 4, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
unless it's being freed I don't see anything ground breaking here.
Aid climbing is stupid.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 4, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Aid climbing is stupid.

I allways used to feel that way too. Then I did an El Cap route.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
^^^props^^^
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
Thirty years,I know them both No BullShit! They are GREAT climbers.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
So five separate threads and what seems like a million posts, and we finally get something objective and sensible.

This part kind of sums it all up:
I know that I will get slammed for this, but if you aren't in the right group of climbers, your route may get held to a double standard. That is all I am saying. What is OK for Bridwell is not OK for others.

And this applies not just to El cap. Or to Yosemite Valley. But to just about every climbing area everywhere. Anyone who has been active in new route development in any major area has seen it, or been involved in it.

The only difference in this case is that it happened on the Holy Alter in the Holy Tabernacle in the Holy Climbing State of California. Therefore it gets ten thousand posts of anger and hate, attack and defense.

In the meantime, climbing has long since moved on.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 4, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
But to just about every climbing area everywhere.

It applies to just about everything, everywhere.
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:04am PT
Mark and David, you are missing the point, my friends. We all know that most of the time, just about everything is known about what occured on a climbing ascent.

Jim isn't on here spraying and then lying about what went on nor or any of the other guys who had bad practices. We know who we are. All us diehards ever asked for is an accurate hole count. That's it.

To add, Kevin Thaw and two others posted their attempt to do it in a day. They reached P5, well past THE CRUX, and rated it modern A3. His main complaint was having to deal with rusting cables on the now ancient batheads and crappy zmac rivets.

Bear in mind this is an all-time low watermark with respect to style. 39 days and a half a ton of equipment to climb a variation to keep it all in perspective. I don't think Ammon and Kait will feel much kinship with the FA. LOL! But if it's any consolation, they'll probably shave a month off the time posted by Bwana. And Skid.

I just hope Ammon doesn't get so bored as to call it a day (it's hot up there). Robbie Slater bailed from P7 due to such heat. The simple fact that it's unrepeated in its entirety has created far too much sensation around this climb. Because once it's done, it gets an asterisk. LOL
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:11am PT
Let's get those shitters names out here! Yee haw!
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Do the History a bit, this is not known much but they are both good free climbers. What a bunch of bullshit this site is! Climbing is something you do for yourself , Not to empress ours.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:14am PT
" All us diehards ever asked for is an accurate hole count. That's it."

Dumbass. Your husband already told us what it is.



http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/516588/Wings-of-Steel-XXVII-the-Downward-Spiral

Why don't you tell us what you really want, Mimi? Could there be a woman in the world more bitter than you? You are a Hater.

As for who the sh|tters are, if they simply apologized to Mark and Richard, it would probably go a long way.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:18am PT
FACT BRA: 11 MIL ROPEZ MAKE FOR A NICE CLEAN WIPER.
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:20am PT
"Do the History a bit, this is not known much but they are both good free climbers. What a bunch of bullshit this site is! Climbing is something you do for yourself , Not to empress ours."

dogtown, you're wrong. Sorry. If you're buggering up the place to impress others, and not telling the truth, then climbers consider this unacceptable. If that's what you meant by empress ours.

Mark H, sorry to see that Pete has shown you the way. LOL!
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Pete, you are a goofball, the hole count has been a projection due to a total lack of a straightforward account from the Taskmaster and his Slave.

Since you consider yourself cock-of-the-rock up there, doesn't it frost your balls when a competent party rates something modern A3 and you can't even get up it with a TR? Seriously.

You can call me whatever, it's a just cause. Pete you are so lost.

Only one of the perps lost the mojo and apologized as far as I know. They shouldn't apologize.

I am Spartacus!!!!!!1111111111
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:33am PT
Hi, Pete what the f*#k mate?
NigelSSI

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:37am PT
brb running to store for more popcorn.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/80263/eddie-izzard-popcorn-gif-o.gif
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:38am PT
Could there be a woman in the world more bitter than you? You are a Hater.

Pete, you're out of line here. I know Mimi. I hang out with her, share meals with her, party with her, and climb with her. I also disagree with her about some things. But she is no hater, and whatever else she may be, she sure isn't bitter.

For whatever reason, she doesn't like the way some guys did some climb. Big deal. You probably don't like the way some guys did some climb. Does that make you bitter? Or a hater?

Really, the whole thing seems silly. El Cap was an important climbing arena forty or fifty years ago, but it's relevance has faded. People tie on their ropes and head up onto it and that's great. You enjoy leisurely outings with all the comforts of home, others blitz it in a few hours, while still others go up and down their ropes and work on their redpoint skills. You all probably enjoy your own approach and you all have your personal quirks about its history. But as long as you're having a good time (and carrying your excreta over the top with you), then who gives a sh#t?
WBraun

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:41am PT
From above:

then who gives a sh#t?


Everyone gives a sh'it.

Nobody wants to take one home ......
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:43am PT
she sure isn't bitter.

Online she is.


lulz.

plz continyew
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:45am PT
doesn't it frost your balls when a competent party rates something modern A3 and you can't even get up it with a TR? Seriously.



even you fanboys out there hafta say that is just a little funny, comon!
=)
























wait- can'tchya just duct tape those hooks on there?
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:45am PT
GDavis, see how sexist you are. If I was a guy, I doubt you'd be calling me bitter. But then women with strong opinions about things like the protrayal of their breasts also seem to throw you off.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Ghost,

Mimi's hatred of Mark and Richard absolutely permeates her posts here on McTopo. If you disagree, please read what she has written again and again. Her bitterness even overrides her ability to comprehend what Mark and Richard have written here, where they have precisely [and excruciatingly] explained what they did.

It didn't sound like modern A3 based on what Ammon told me, and it felt rather harder to me, too!

Werner, you always make me laugh!
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:48am PT
Mimi, you Don’t know what the truth is about route. Please.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:54am PT
GDavis, see how sexist you are. If I was a guy, I doubt you'd be calling me bitter

Pretty sure you are the only women I've ever berated on supertopo, ever. You can scroll through my history and see my numerous beefs with men. Men are very often bitter, it is not a feminine word, just like a Bitch can be a man and a dickhead can be a woman.



Not everything is a sex issue. Besides, who are you? I assume you are a woman? I have my name AND my face, I climb regularly with many members of this community and post trip reports of my sorry ass ascents for others to enjoy. Should everyone do this? No. But someone who sits behind an anonymous avatar and talks sh#t to climbers who are out there enjoying things makes me not like very much your attitude.

PtPP couldn't toprope an A3? have you been up there? No?

I hate it when people comment on the difficulty of climbs they never got on.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:59am PT
Aaa OOOOO Gah Aaah OOOOO Gah Dive Dive Dive. All hands battle stations. Prepare for depth charges. Aaa OOOO Gah!




I suggest you run mate.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:00am PT
^^^^lol
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:02am PT
GDavis, I love it when you berate me.

Have you been up on wos? You certainly have an opinion about it. The modern A3 rating came from someone who did. And Pass-the-Peepee doesn't count.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:04am PT
And Pass-the-Peepee doesn't count.



Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:50am PT
stinky, where were you in 1982? You too, lack a clue.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:08am PT
4th of July and we have more fireworks here than what's going on outside.

Well, not quite, but it sounded good for a moment.

Mimi, I love you, but simmer down. These boys don't get it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:14am PT
Perhaps we should have a pool, with bets on things like:

1. Whether Ammon and Kait will get to the top or not.
2. What date and time they'll get there.
3. What they'll report about the route - bold masterpiece or chipfest bolt ladder.
4. How many posts this thread will have before it's over.

The proceeds could go to the YCA, to buy toilet paper for the FaceLift or something.

It would be unsporting to bet on whether some posters will have apoplexy during the ascent.
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:16am PT
Anders, for the umpteenth time, it's knot a bolt ladder!!!

Wayno, you missed a fun Beefest on Saturday.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:17am PT
Oh, sorry. I didn't know that facts were important to the discussion. My bad.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:18am PT
It's still a big fricken slab of all slabs. Pluck it. Have at it. Yeah, ok.
Move along.
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:24am PT
Anders, you're a political animal. It's either 1000 bolts to Horse Chute or who knows how many tiny but exciting Bwana dimples. You choose.
hollyclimber

Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:33am PT
Its not "July heat" here. Its feeling pretty June-ish. This week 80 degrees. Good time to go up the Captain. Go Ammon!
Mimi

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:35am PT
I heard a couple days ago it was baking. That's good news. Onward and upward!
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 5, 2011 - 10:24am PT
Oh, sorry. I didn't know that facts were important to the discussion. My bad.


One of the funniest posts in this whole novel !


I've only got one word for this whole ancient history.

Old

Uninspiring

Controversial

Contrived

Ridiculous

Slab

Slab

Slab

Slab

I certainly wouldn't spend valuable vacation, energy, and treasure to get up it just so I could say what it is or isn't.

The greatest slab aid route in the world, whoop-de-feckin'-dooo.

Slab and aid just don't go together that well in my mind.

I was kidding about the one word thing. heh heh
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 5, 2011 - 10:58am PT
Wiffs Of Sh#t weather retort. steamy (and meaty?) with increasingly shrill bitterness predicted, along with a high likelihood of apoplexy as the ascent builds momentum. No apologies are expected...
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 5, 2011 - 11:41am PT
I don't think showers of adulation are in the forecast either...

I really appreciate the well rounded perspective and comments of folks like Base104 and Ghost, though I must admit that I too am a FOM (friend of mimi) and enjoy the hell out of her company. I think its kind of funny that anyone thinks of her as an anonymous poster.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 11:52am PT
It is really important to Mimi that we despise this route and the guys who climbed it as much as she does. This strange 30 year hatred and associated slander and defecation is far more interesting/entertaining than as others have said, a slab route.

Where was I in 1982? hmm, kindergarten perhaps? Not so different...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Is shacking up with a climber(s) who climbed a big wall really a basis for criticizing other el cap climber's ascents?


If so, my hats back in the circle!

Lets hope Tom Evans didn't keep those photos : *
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
^^ If you are cute, and wish to criticize, please contact me. ^^

Chief, I think you need to help me out here, since you and I are apparently the only two writing here who have actually been on the climb.

There is a huge misconception that WoS is a "slab" and that this must somehow make it "easy". A slab is something that you climb using friction, like say on Glacier Point Apron. No climbing moves like that exist on the first two pitches of WoS, with the possible exception of the leftward traverse partway up the first pitch which take a couple free moves, however these free moves are not slab moves but rather face moves. The bulge on the first pitch is either dead vertical or slightly overhanging, and requires the most desperate hooking I have ever encountered.

I am a cave explorer and surveyor, and I own a survey instrument called an inclinometer or clino, which allows you to accurately and within a half-degree measure the inclination of a survey shot. It also lets you measure the angle of ski slopes and rock "slabs".

Mimi - why don't you give us a number? What angle of elevation do you believe the first two pitches of WoS to be? I'll bet you a few beers it's rather steeper than you imagine it to be. I could courier the instrument to someone here in the Valley, and they could go out and make a few shots for us.

The first two pitches of WoS ain't no slab - it's a high angle face which is nearly vertical. It's scary as hell, dangerous as fukk, and if you fall you're flying in the air and scraping against the wall, and it's going to hurt. A lot. Ask Ammon. We may find him returning all covered in scabs from all the falls he is sure to take in order to figure out the desperate hooking sequence.

Think about it: If this route were nothing but a "slab", doncha think it would have been climbed by now?

It is amusing to observe people who have never even SEEN the route let alone BEEN ON IT describing it as a slab. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! Why don't you bring your aiders and hooks and try a few moves? The rock is fairly uniform, and one place is just as nasty as the next.

Dang, wish I could stay in the Valley and watch. Gotta fly! Keep us posted. Someone get out there with a long lens and show us some photos! Go Ammon and Kait!!
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
Nearly vertical = slab.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
FAK: Slab is something between 30 and 70 degrees.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
^^^^^^ posted from iPhone in Concordia, Pakistan
Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber
love, trust, and T*Rs nuts!
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
If my Wife cared about WOS as much as MIMI does, I'd f*#king shoot my self. END OF F*#KING STORY!

PTCC
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
PTCC, we don't agree on much but I do agree with you on that!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
The angle of a glacis is such that it can be walked up; a slab is steeper; whilst a wall is nearly vertical and may overhang. The slopes are approximately: below 30 degrees, between 30 and 75 degrees, above 75 degrees.

From Fell and Rock Climbing Club guidebooks, beginning a century ago or more. The definitive source as to such matters.

It sounds like bits of WoS may properly fall within the definition of slab, but that most is a wall. But the thing is sui generis.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Hey Anders, is that source from when you actually climbed? Dating yourself there brah.
Nightclub Dwight

Social climber
Outside Your Window
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Aww Mark, you wuz screaming more'n mimi when we danced the cornholio down at Rooster Rock, but yew know you loved it, "open wide for chunky!" C'mon lovechunks, weather turnt nice agin, come meat me at da beach...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Yes, when I started climbing, p'terodactyls were still nesting on the Chief.

Later they moved to Burnaby and started making fancy packs.

Anyway, the Fell and Rock Climbing Club, and its journals and guidebooks, provide some helpful perspective on important issues like "what is a slab?".
Gilwad

climber
Frozen In Somewhere
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
I just want to contribute to one of the all-time silliest threads ever, just to say I was there. How many posts about a little slab aid route does it take? We've got seventh-day Advent Calendarists Vs. the self-Anointed Valley Locals... From the outside y'all look sillier than those damn mixed climbers scratching around in chossy caves and then arguing about who did it with or without spurs. Actually, they at least aren't on a slab.

Time to go climbing, not on a drilled slab.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
The definitive source as to such matters

Oooooh, DEFINITIVE! Because, you know, there are rules and sh#t. OFFICIALLY sanctioned bodies and the like. You really think people accept some self-proclaimed authority they've never heard of, in a game with no actual rules, when thrown out by a man in the most hated profession in the world, a class of people best known for obsfucation and lying? Well, I've got news for you Mr. Counselor, Esq.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 5, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
From the outside y'all look sillier than those damn mixed climbers scratching around in chossy caves and then arguing about who did it with or without spurs.

Oh yeah? Well, I hear you altered the ice to make some of the key placements on one of those M-hard routes. And also that you had a secret little electric motor and propeller on some of those record hang glider flights. And anyway, you Canadians don't even have to pay to climb, but if you think you can bring socialized climbing to the US you better think again.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Ditto what Gilwad says.

And sorry my sarcasm about "definitive sources" wasn't clearer. I thought it amusing that there was such a definition.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 5, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
I haven't been on that SLAB, but I've climbed routes in locations to both sides, and from the sides and above, it sure looks like a SLAB.

A giant SLAB of glass, tilted at the right angle, say..umm 70 degrees or so will be quite difficult to climb, but that doesn't mean it's not a SLAB.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 5, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
It looks like the temps are going to cooperate, but we have some monsoon moisture coming our way. What do people think? Could this cause them trouble?


Special Weather Statement

SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY - HANFORD CA
806 AM PDT TUE JUL 5 2011

CAZ089>099-052230-
WEST CENTRAL SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-EAST CENTRAL SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-
SOUTHWESTERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-SOUTHEASTERN SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY-
MARIPOSA MADERA AND FRESNO COUNTY FOOTHILLS-
TULARE COUNTY FOOTHILLS-KERN COUNTY MOUNTAINS-
SIERRA NEVADA FROM YOSEMITE TO KINGS CANYON-
TULARE COUNTY MOUNTAINS-INDIAN WELLS VALLEY-
SOUTHEASTERN KERN COUNTY DESERT-
806 AM PDT TUE JUL 5 2011

...CONVECTIVE OUTLOOK...

A DEEP SURGE OF MONSOON MOISTURE HAS MOVED INTO CENTRAL
CALIFORNIA. THUNDERSTORMS WILL BE INCREASING ACROSS THE SOUTHERN
SIERRA NEVADA...THE TEHACHAPI MOUNTAINS...AND THE KERN COUNTY
DESERTS TODAY...AND CONTINUE INTO WEDNESDAY AT LEAST. SOME OF THE
THUNDERSTORMS COULD LINGER OR EVEN DEVELOP DURING THE NIGHTTIME
HOURS.

THE FLOW ALOFT WILL BE SUCH THAT A FEW THUNDERSTORMS COULD DRIFT
INTO PARTS OF THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY...ESPECIALLY IN THE SOUTH
END...AND OVER AND NEAR THE FOOTHILLS ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE
VALLEY ALONG AND WEST OF INTERSTATE 5.

SOME OF THE THUNDERSTORMS COULD PRODUCE VERY HEAVY RAIN IN A
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME...GUSTY WINDS...AS WELL AS DANGEROUS CLOUD TO
GROUND LIGHTNING. FLASH FLOODING IS POSSIBLE IN THE MOUNTAINS AND
DESERTS.
Gene

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
John,

I'll see your weather report and raise you one.

The National Weather Service in Sacramento has issued a

The National Weather Service in Sacramento has issued a

* Severe Thunderstorm Warning for...
southwestern Alpine County in central California...
this includes the cities of... Lake Alpine... Bear Valley...
northeastern Amador County in central California...
extreme northeastern Calaveras County in central California...
north central Tuolumne County in central California...

* until 300 PM PDT

* at 200 PM PDT... National Weather Service Doppler radar indicated
two severe thunderstorms continuing to grow in size that will be
capable of producing quarter size hail. One storm was located
near Lookout Peak... or 6 miles east of Lake Alpine... and moving
west at 5 mph. The other storm was located near Kennedy Meadow and
moving towards the west at 5 miles per hour.

In addition both of these storms will produce very heavy rainfall and
may cause flooding of low lying areas.

* These severe thunderstorms will be near...
Lake Alpine... Bear Valley and 7 miles east of Tamarack by 230 PM
PDT and over State Route 108 near Dardanelle by 215 PM...

Precautionary/preparedness actions...

In addition to large hail and damaging winds... continuous cloud to
ground lightning is occurring with this storm. Move indoors
immediately! Lightning is one of natures number one killers.
Remember... if you can hear thunder... you are close enough to be
struck by lightning.

If on a lake get out of the water and move indoors or inside a vehicle.
Remember... lightning can strike out to 15 miles from the parent
thunderstorm. If you can hear thunder... you are close enough to be
struck by lightning. Move to safe shelter now. Don't be caught on
the water in a thunderstorm!


Lat... Lon 3812 12004 3855 12029 3861 11987 3854 11979
3825 11965
time... Mot... loc 2106z 082deg 5kt 3846 11991

I sure as heck hope that both systems miss Kait and Ammon. But, I guess, if they complete WoS, we will have nothing to rant about.

g
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 5, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
Quarter size hail might divot the poor climb.
Gene

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Infinite drama bump!
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 5, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
Hail will totally chip new hook placements, invalidating any alleged ascent.
fosburg

climber
Jul 5, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Crazy! Why is this route controversial? Rob Slater told me it was harder than the Sea of Dreams. Kevin Thaw says it is "modern A3" (for all you old dads, that means A5, get on up there Mimi Dude if you think that's light). Freaking UNREPEATED for how long? It's definitely a hard aid route. Maybe not a brilliant natural line but certainly bad-ass by the commonly accepted standards.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 5, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
Kevin-your voice of reason is totally inappropriate to this thread. Please delete and repost some hysterical, unreasonable hearsay...
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 5, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
Sheesh you Californicators are looking like a bunch-o-bung holes. Exactly how much time and electrons can you squander whining about one freekin' route? And why?
There is a whole world outside of the big valley. Go climb something.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 5, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Why, that forecast sounds exactly like the same forecast I've been climbing through on El Cap for the last month and a half. What's the big deal?

I never bailed ....


























... except once.

Here's the animated radar loop for the area:

http://www.intellicast.com/national/radar/current.aspx?location=USCA0987&animate=true

Put your rain fly on, Ammon and Kait!

I asked the VIA bus driver for a quick stop at the west end of the Meadow for a look-see on the way out this morning, but he wouldn't. I thought I saw their ledge at the top of 2, but it was just a quick glance through the bus window.




And here's your Dr. Piton Big Wall Travel Tip of the Day:

The dirtbag cognoscenti are already aware that the best public transport route to Yosemite is via the Amtrak to Merced and thence the VIA bus. The train is, of course, BYOB. When returning home, there is enough time at the Merced Amtrak station to make a Bee-double-E-double-R-U-N, a Beer Run. But where? It just so happens that only a block and a half away [about 150m to Hosers like Anders] from the Amtrak at the corner of K and 23rd is a little convenience store that sells the coldest beer in Merced. It's true, it says so on the sign.

Here I was faced with a dilemma - the forty-pounder of Olde E., or the choice swill consumed at the Centre of the Universe [the El Cap Bridge] which is King Cobra. I couldn't decide, so I chose both.

Along with a two-dollar bag of BBQ pork rinds, the total came to $7.48 US, about five bucks Canadian at the current exchange rate. "Holy frig," I said to the Mexican guy behind the counter, "this is great. A single bottle of this stuff at home would cost more than seven bucks."

"Yeah," he agreed. "But I hear you guys have to go to the beer store to get it. Even so, I'd love to live in Canada," he says. "I saw a TV show where they don't even have to lock the doors."

"That's true," I said. "And there's two reasons why. The first is that in Canada, crime is against the law. And second, there aren't any Mexicans in Canada."

So I grabbed my two bottles of beer and pork rinds, cleverly disguised in a black plastic bag, and clanked my way back to the Amtrak station. There I stood in line to buy my train ticket next to a rather gruff looking officer of the law, who had a half dozen rough-but-very-happy-looking girls in tow, each with a California Department of Corrections card in their hand, waiting to get their train tickets. Seems this was their first day of freedom in quite some time.

After tossing my pigs into the train, the cop stood on the platform and watched the girls disappear. "So you let them all go, eh?" I asked him.

"Yeah," he said, "but I'll see them back in a couple weeks."

Wow, I thought, did you learn to become an @sshole, or were you just born that way?

I went inside the train, talked to a couple of the girls, congratulated them on their big day, and gave them one of my 40's. Sometimes you gotta "pay it forward". Their smiles of delight said it all.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 5, 2011 - 11:55pm PT
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 6, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Pete's on a train full of paroled hookers.

That's your report for today, July 6.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 6, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
"That's true," I said. "And there's two reasons why. The first is that in Canada, crime is against the law. And second, there aren't any Mexicans in Canada."

Did you learn to become an @sshole, or were you just born that way?

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 6, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
"That's true," I said. "And there's two reasons why. The first is that in Canada, crime is against the law. And second, there aren't any Mexicans in Canada."

Did you learn to become an @sshole, or were you just born that way?

Have to agree with that one, Pete.

Hood River is 1/3 Hispanic, and I'll bet has as many fine upstanding citizens as the non-hispanic population, it sure does look like it when I read the list of Honor Roll students in the newspaper.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 6, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
C'mon guys, it was a total joke, and he knew I was kidding. There was absolutely no offence taken.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 6, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Fattrad,

These girls were all in their 30's, 40's and 50's. The two I was talking to both bought bloody marys at the bar in the train showing ID.

No WAY could any of them been hookers. They'd have been unemployed.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 6, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
From the outside y'all look sillier than those damn mixed climbers scratching around in chossy caves and then arguing about who did it with or without spurs.
Hey,
Style matters.
... well it does to me, anyway.

On topic.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 6, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
Yeah, getting down on WoS and not on Bridwell for his routes is certainly strange. Still though, any first ascent on El Cap was done in better style than I could have done it so I really have no leeway to complain.

Shredding on the WoS team and not Bridwell is misguided and wrong.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Double standard, or more.

Sure wish someone would try a repeat of Turning Point, in as close to the original style as possible. No fudging.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Jul 6, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
C'mon guys, it was a total joke, and he knew I was kidding. There was absolutely no offence taken.

So it should be cool with the millions of Mexicans in the states then?
I agree, not funny ahole joke.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 6, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
Anyone can make a mistake, I'll dismiss the a$$hole part but still, it was an insensitive comment.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 6, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Jeebus, you guys ever work anywhere ethnically mixed? Cracks like that are almost compliments.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 6, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
Jeebus, you guys ever work anywhere ethnically mixed? Cracks like that are almost compliments.


White people like to be offended for other people. In fact, white people enjoy being offended. It gives them a chance to become martyrs for a cause, whether realized or not. Look no further than Supertopo for an example.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/

My favorite passage is the last one:

"If you ever need to make a white person feel indebted to you, wait for them to mention a book, film, or television show that features a character who is the same race as you, then say “the representation of was offensive and if you can’t see that, well, you need to do some soul searching.” After they return from their hastily booked trip to land of your ancestors, they will be desperate to make it up to you. At this point, it is acceptable to ask them to help you paint your house."
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 6, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
Concur with Gary above. Had you all been there, you would "get" it. I probably spent like five minutes talking to him and his friend, and they were super cool. We talked about beer and Canada and all sorts of stuff. We all had a good laugh over it, and there absolutely no hurt feelings.

Why is it OK to write or say the absolute worst things about Christians, and nobody says a word?

Bwah-ha-ha-ha!! As a white person [but with a pretty good suntan now] I am offended by the white people being offended above. Or something like that.

Anyway, twenty or thirty posts after my intentionally provocative and inflammatory post to keep this thread near the top of the forum, there is not a single report on Kait and Ammon's progress. Anyone know what's happening?

Silver, I might have been tempted, but I had only a single bag.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 6, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Huh?

aaaaaaanyway's...

we need a progress report on the current attempt on this route.

Anyone got some pics?

I love climbing.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 6, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
Ammon has completed 3-1/2 pitches. They are hanging out today on their sunshaded portaledge at the top of pitch 2. Kait needs a break from Ammon's fairly constant, "Watch me," as he skateboards down when the hooks fly. Fairly grueling experience and probably why not many attempts have been made of WoS.

And as the #1SuperMama - be careful with your totally untrue negative comments. I raised my children with the old adage: "Shut up until you put up!" So, unless you have tried this route - you know what to do!

P.S. This is for you Pete, since you are their #1 WoS fan!
Ammon and Kait have a very unique climbing style -
Time ceases to exist.
They simply enjoy being together on the Captain.
: )
And it was nice meeting you and getting to put a face with a name on this forum.
Have a safe trip back home.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 6, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
Thanks for the update and for keeping us apprised, Annie! Without Tom on the bridge you might be our only source of current info. Nice meeting you on the bridge, too.

After twelve days on A.O. Wall, I'm quite familiar with the "time ceases to exist" bit. Fortunately, my time did knott involve leaving hunks of my flesh and blood stuck to the Captain!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 6, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
tx for the update.

really hard slab climbing is bad enough free.

the aid version, skating out of aiders, sounds really brutal. the sort of thing you might come up with if you did yr first aid climbing at rubidoux.

oh wait . . .
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 6, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
Kinda' epic and fun to watch this one.
If I hear any more news - I'll post it.
Thanks for all the positive energy!
Woot woot! That's what they need to feel up there.

And if anyone is around - can you take some pics and post for me? Thanks!

And hey, what was the day count of the 1st ascent?
I know they didn't take enough water for that many days -
Pete, maybe you better get back here and lower some water down?!?!

Ciao!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 6, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
Wouldn't Ammon prefer beer?

Wouldn't it be a pleasant change if something nice came down from above this time?
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Jul 7, 2011 - 12:43am PT
Seems to me that even though this ascent will not use any of the same hook placements the FA did (they have been washed off by rain?!) this second ascent will be very comparable - slab hooking dimes that will be re-shaped by rain in the next couple years.





Really hoping Ammon will run out of pitches before he runs out of skin!



Cheers guys!!
Mimi

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:23am PT
You guys are unbelievable. You continue to ignore the tactics the FA used to get up the precious slab. And the argument about not giving Jim grief about his practices is ridiculous. His climbing accomplishments speak for him unlike the wos FA team who have none. Like I said, he's not on the ST spraying like the wos FA have tried to do. They've obviously duped several of you supposed good climbers who are in total denial about what went on up there and you give me crap for toeing the line. You have no spine and are gutless.

Mark Hudon, would you use a drill to enhance your hook placements and then lie? There's never been an argument about the level of difficulty, only about the tactics used.

We know Pass the Penis does such things. The Chief, you duct tape hook placements. Do you also use the drill? You other guys don't even warrant a comment as far as I'm concerned. You can give me grief all you want. Call me a hater, the facts stand. And Kevin F., I'm really disappointed in you. What would Walt say? I already know.

Oh, and by the way, the sum total of these goob's big wall experience when they left the ground was that Dick had done the Column and Skid had none. And you kooks, like Healy, think it's a wondrous accomplishment that such a team could walk up and do such a proud route. Give me a break!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:25am PT
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater
Mimi

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:29am PT
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=liar
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:36am PT
Actually Mimi, they didn't lie. They freely admit enhancing practically every hook placement. Errr, "micro-enhancing".
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:37am PT
We'll know soon enough whatever Ammon and Kait report. They're taking enough time that they should see whatever there may be to see, and no one so far has suggested that they have any axes to grind. Even after 29 years, there shouldn't be a lot of change.

PTPP gets slagged for his allegedly unstylish vertical camping trips, climbing what are often difficult routes in a studied manner, and smelling the roses en route. Not exactly superlight alpinism, but he doesn't get in anyone's way, and doesn't pretend to be doing anything else. Isn't the current attempt on WoS also a vertical camping trip, and shouldn't it be assessed in the same manner?

Anyway, WoS does seem sui generis, and needs to be considered as such - there's nothing like it elsewhere on El Cap, or indeed in the Valley.
Mimi

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:57am PT
So by your account nickd, yeah a 12-point font size enhancement. So that would make it about 290 holes. Wow, thanks.

Anders, remember the enhancements are invisible. And to quote Skid, "There are lots of enhancements, but you won't see them." And you praising PTPP's ascents is a bit off. Anyone who takes an average of ten days to complete an El Cap route is getting in someone's way.

And I know many of you will grab onto this and think it's okay. But it's not. We have asked the FA plain questions many times such as "of the 145 narrow Leeper Logan hooks that were used on the route, how many of them involved percussive force with a hammer and drill or chisel?"

Skid says lots and Bwana can't seem to remember despite the otherwise meticulous bookeeping.

Imagine the quandry that Ammon and Kait are in right now. They're trying to hook up this slab. One of the original FA team says go ahead and drill to suit, we did. The other one says oh no, you must use what's there because that's what we did.
dipper

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:02am PT
Mimi sounds like a jilted lover...

So who was it, Dick or Skid?
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:14am PT
You know someone's logic is pretty weak when instead of addressing the question at hand they switch to vile personal attacks.

Sort of like, "easy to guess what you dip, dipshit". There's your lesson in ad hominem attacks for the day. I'm guessing you guys watch Fox "News" a lot?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:34am PT
Well, it does seem that some have painted themselves into a corner in terms of what happened, and that one outcome of an ascent of WoS may be to embarrass some of them. Yes, there'd be all the caveats - the intervening time, various attempts and partial ascents (if any), the various stories and statements, what is and isn't done on other routes. That aside, Ammon and Kait may report that things are pretty much as the climbers reported, and that it's a very hard route, if somewhat unusual. Or they could report that it's a chip/enhancement fest. Or somewhere between. An informed, factual, reliable report on what's actually there and its context may clear up a lot of myths.

Whether anyone would have the courage, as Robbins did in 1971, to apologize for what has been said and done may be another matter.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 04:03am PT
You continue to ignore the tactics the FA used to get up the precious slab

Your perspective is extremely narrow.

Anyone who takes an average of ten days to complete an El Cap route is getting in someone's way.

I hope someday you will realize how embarrassing it was to say something like that. You are just miles and miles away from any kind of reasonable viewpoint.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2011 - 05:09am PT
the facts stand.

Yes, they do. They were entirely explicit, honest, and open here in these threads about what they did and how and not one of them amounted to "drilling" or even rose to 'chipping' in any conventional use of the word. But then neither you nor Steve have been on the route to know or do more than spew bullshit and talk out your ass.

I'm betting Ammon and Kait are going to come back and tell us if there was 'drilling' or 'chipping' they didn't find any evidence of it.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:40am PT
Everybody should know Mimi is a cool person in person. She is only sounds like a dick here - when people seem to be accepting WOS, which means that they could then disapprove of throwing crap - which would cause her to loose face.


Ahhhh, I WANT TO BE POPULAR! I CANT LOOSE FACE!!! post, post, post - tip this argument in my favor!!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:39am PT
600 posts for an obscure Valley climb....tempest in a teapot.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 7, 2011 - 11:06am PT
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 7, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Mimi,

It's funny that you are so worked up about a climb on El Cap that you've never done, on a cliff that you've never climbed on your own (sorry if I'm mistaken), using techniques that are far, far above your skill level.

It's also funny that you deride WoS for "style" (chipping, drilling, length of time taken) when you don't berate Bridwell and others for even more egregious chipping, or Harding for a whole hell of a lot more drilling and almost as much time.

Your husband has done a couple fine routes in impressive style and they may even be at the pinnacle of style but if his example is your benchmark, you need to start ragging on almost everyone else on down to be fair. Right now, you sound like some lunatic running around claiming that the sky is falling with no real understanding of the whole issue.

A few people here have defended you as a fine, intelligent, fair person, but reading your posts on this issue doesn't leave that impression.
DanaB

climber
Philadelphia
Jul 7, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
Whether anyone would have the courage, as Robbins did in 1971, to apologize for what has been said and done may be another matter.

Don't hold your breath.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 7, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
That horse a few posts back looks like it doesn't need any more beating.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
I think this thread has achieved new life with Ammon’s party now on the line. Good on Ammon and Kate. We have to admit it is interesting hearing their reports and results even at this early date. And it is odd that Donini would cast umbrage on this long thread when he has certainly had his day on the Maestri threads ad nauseum. The WOS issue should be resolved and it’s important. Integrity is always at issue in climbing.

But also what has refreshened the issues here for me is reading Jensen’s report on doing the second ascent of Intifada out in the desert. For those of us not reading the whole WOS thread here, Richard Jensen was one of the two FA’ers of WOS. He and his other half on WOS Mark Smith, went out into the desert to find out what actually happened on this hugely feared and weird, supposed A6 Jim Beyer route. It is a remarkably persistent, detailed and I think level-headed piece:

http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html

This was a much hyped Jim Beyer aid route that was supposed to be so extreme and horrific etc etc. Well Jensen’s party pretty much debunked the Beyer account of it, were very resourceful in climbing the route and re-creating Beyer’s strange ascent of it and peeling back the nonsense. In a sense the shoe is on the other foot here with Jensen reviewing another very controversial and doubted ascent of others. Do read the link; very worthwhile especially now with WOS getting maybe repeated.

Yes I agree Mimi. Even within the FA party there is this confusion of tactic. Perhaps a second ascent will straighten out the issues. If it turns out it is a highly enhanced and make-believe route, there we are: is that a climb or is it just silly? We shall see.

An allied thread for the Intifada report is:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=231645
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Mark, are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it? Does that mean all us 5.10 crack gumbies got no grounds to complain about a 5.13 bolted crack that has perfect gear placements because we'll never stand a chance of getting up it bolts or not? A 5.7 climber better shut up about my tightly rappel bolted 5.9 slab? Is climbing ability really the only litmus test for validity of opinion? I don't think that's what you mean, but it is where your point leads.

Didn't this whole tempest in a teapot about an obscure Yosemite wall variation come about because the FA party showed up online and wanted to recast themselves as visionary heroes and the hardest aid climbers of their era? I think resistance to that storyline is at the root of all this brouhaha, and the discriminated against outsiders with poo on their ropes is just a sideshow that adds a little pathos to the whole passion play.

The fact that climbing can be cliquish and territorial is hardly surprising, though other quasi-outsider sports such as the surf world are far more violent. The very few thrown punches in the climbing ethical debates are all legendary, but beatings for surfers outside their station have been commonplace for decades.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it?

That's true, I'll retract that. Climbing is climbing and anyone can have an opinion about it.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
Although, you can hardly have an informed opinion on 5.13s if you've never climbed a 5.13. Or on WoS if you've never climbed WoS...
OR

Trad climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
Wait, who is Mimi's husband?
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Kait and Ammon pulled everything up to the top of 3 last night and slept there.
Ammon's set his sights on two more today. And when I asked, they both said Ammon has made NO changes to the route thus far. He is hoping to stay true! BUT, as we all have been told on this thread, who knows in the past 30 years what weathering has occurred.

But I do have 1 Question???: If you're NOT going for a speed ascent and there are no teams below you, then what the HELL difference does it make how long you're on a route?

Oh sh#t...that just reminded me...they wanted me to post that when they looked down at the base of WoS this morning, there were 10 groups ranting and raving up at them. 'Cuz they're all awaiting their turn to "hook" on up and take their turns skateboarding down WoS too! ; )

Ciao!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
I am.
OR

Trad climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
AHHH thanks Steve.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
off white wrote

Didn't this whole tempest in a teapot about an obscure Yosemite wall variation come about because the FA party showed up online and wanted to recast themselves as visionary heroes and the hardest aid climbers of their era?


No, it started long before that when the route when up and the FA was vilified. Lets see what the second ascent party has to contribute to the discussion.


It's OK to use that club to pound the horse until it's guts poke out but god forbid you use the club with a chisel to trim it's hooves!

Peace

Karl
Gene

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
Photos of the WoS FA are found here: http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/wos/wos.html
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
It is all more fun and interesting and useless in a dog chasing his tail kind of way isn't it?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
Mark, are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it?

In this case critics of the climb have and are leveling explicit and specific accusations at the FAs relative to the 'appropriateness' of any climb in that locale, the nature of the line, drilling and chipping [tactics] on it, time on the route, etc. without any direct experience on the route to corroborate those accusations.

It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA where there's a specific bolt count per pitch and the facts of its hole count are not being disputed. If people are going spread lies and perpetrate a myth of drilling and chipping it's on them to make their case. In this case, from what I can tell, folks perpetrating the myth the loudest never bothered to find out the facts and no longer have the skills or the stones to do so now.

As far as the appropriateness argument goes, try telling the guys back east at Whitehorse and in NC that high angle slabs are 'off limits' or inappropriate for climbing and they'll kick your ass.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Why lower the armchair climbing standards down to your own level, when you can rise to the challenge?

So true, what was I thinking?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!! Neal, that was brilliant!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA...

Did you ever climb IB Joseph? I know you take a dim view of it, which is fine by me, but I'm curious about whether you ever got on it. As far as I could get up it in a day and still get down safely I thought it was great.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Some armchair bigwalling for ya, from one of the kooks:

"And you kooks, like Healy, think it's a wondrous accomplishment that such a team could walk up and do such a proud route."--mimi




That an unskilled "team could walk up and do such a proud route" is EXACTLY why it is such a wondrous accomplishment--it has NOT been seconded (yet) despite some valiant efforts...


The name of big-walling--invent your own rules/ethics and legends and see how many of the m-asses will kiss your azz and follow them.


...funny game you play with the hammer and steel!
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
[Mimi] It's funny that you are so worked up about a climb on El Cap that you've never done, on a cliff that you've never climbed on your own (sorry if I'm mistaken), using techniques that are far, far above your skill level. –Mark Hudon

[Mark] are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it? – Off White

That's true, I'll retract that. Climbing is climbing and anyone can have an opinion about it. –Mark Hudon

I'm in no way singling you out Mark, as what I am about to say goes equally well for the other hundreds of posters on this, and the multitude of other WoS threads, myself included.

Get a clue dude.
This, and other, WoS threads that preceded it represent the practice of armchair mountaineering elevated to its most challenging, intellectually stimulating, emotionally overwrought, and slanderous best. The WoS controversy ranks amongst the highest accomplishment in the form, the platinum tip of the pyramid if you will. “It’s funny that you’re so worked up”… look, if you can't get yourself all worked up and roll with the big boys, you need bow out. Get off the bench and get yourself a chair with ARMS, kick back, relax, and step up the slander. Who cares if you're “mistaken”? Or reasonable? Or factual? Untempered speculation, masked grievances, self-righteousness, logarithmic equations, ancient technologies, ethical impasses, futuristic musings, grudges, entertainment, emotional baiting, slander, and glory fuels the endeavor.

Retract nothing!
Retract everything!

The last thing this subject needs is resolution, equipoise, closure. Allow the debunking of climbing myths to square and cube in every direction until it all fold backs onto itself and begins again at an ever-higher level. Hopefully, the naïve faith that Ammon’s (probable) second ascent will resolve - or simplify - any of the myriad issues will soon be broken.
Without unrestrained vigor, armchair mountaineering as a sport hits a plateau.

And Lovesgasoline gives the crowning comment on the whole debacle - the platinum tip of the bizarre pyramid!

Pitch-perfect and frame-worthy block of text that deeply mines the strangeness at play. Just f#cking delicious, LG!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Did you ever climb IB Joseph? I know you take a dim view of it, which is fine by me, but I'm curious about whether you ever got on it.

Absolutely not, and my criticisms of the route don't require it. I'm not disputing any specific detail of the climb that would require I verify those details. I'm criticizing it as a 23-pitch sportless wonder bolted in a wilderness. Then again maybe it's destined to become the 51st North American classic in today's demographic:

p1 - 5.6 / 120' / 2 bolts
p2 - 5.4 / 110' / 4 bolts
p3 - 5.4 / 100' / 2 bolts
p4 - 5.6 / 100' / 9 bolts
p5 - 5.5 / 110' / 9 bolts
p6 - 5.7 / 160' / 5 bolts
p7 - 5.6 / 190' / 7 bolts (walk)
p8 - 5.5 / 200' / 3 bolts
p9 - 5.9 / 160' / 10 bolts
p10 - 5.8 / 100' / 7 bolts
p11 - 10b / 90' / 9 bolts (walk)
p12 - 5.8 / 110' / 6 bolts
p13 - 5.2 / 130' / 1 bolts
p14 - 5.7 / 160' / 10 bolts
p15 - 5.2 / 160' / 2 bolts
p16 - 5.0 / 80' / 0 bolts
p17 - 5.0 / 140' / 0 bolts
p18 - 5.8 / 110' / 8 bolts
p19 - 10c / 130' / 17 bolts
p20 - 5.7 / 60' / 2 bolts
p21 - 10a / 180' / 15 bolts
p22 - 5.8 / 160' / 11 bolts
p23 - 5.9 / 90' / 14 bolts

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
Thanks. Wasn't looking for an argument, just curious is all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
p19 - 10c / 130' / 17 bolts

What the hell are you, some kind of screaming Mimi? It's a classic I tell you.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
Karl, I just meant the storm of endless WoS posts (of which this is yet another one) here on Supertopo, not the earlier real world reaction to both the route, the magazine article, and the book. The route was just fine as a sleeping dog for decades, I thougth it was the FA party that got the party started here on line.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 7, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
Some of us STILL don't care. You can Have The Grand Slab.
Anyone. Even Bueller.

Have a nice day.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
Off White:

It's easy to say let sleeping dogs lie when you're not the member of the climbing community deeply slandered and remembered for just that.

I don't blame those guys for chiming in and hey, it's one of the the few long lasting on-topic conversations super topo has

peace

karl
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Hope this team makes it. I remember being in the Valley while the first ascent team was on it....it looked BIG and BOLD. I would go out to the meadow and can remember thinking, "how bold to be up there for such a freekin' long time." I know it was very controversial at the time, but I always figured, they're up there doin' it and we're down here not! Best wishes to the current team on a safe and adventurous trip.
Peace
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
FACT: WOS DOES NOT GO UP A SLAB - IT GOES UP AN APRON

FACT: THE APRON IS SOME OF THE HARDEST, FINEST-GRAINED GRANITE ON EL CAP

FACT: DIME EDGES WERE THERE 1000+ YEARS AGO
FACT: 30 RECENT YEARS OF RAIN HAS NOT "WASHED AWAY" THE EDGES
FACT: EDGES THAT WASH AWAY IN WATER ARE PLASTER OF POSEUR HOLDS IN A GYM

FACT: ANY 5.19 FOOL WITH BUBBLE GUM ON HIS SHOES CAN WALK UP WOS IN AN HOUR
FACT: IT TAKES A REAL BAD-ASS TO GO UP WITH HOOKS, LIKE MARK AND RICHARD DID
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 7, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
I followed my friend up Nirvana at suicide, and got to thinking... those edges don't 'wear away.' Look at Valhalla, after thousands of ascents and all manner of chugging on those edges they aren't rounded off or slick, still sharp and good to go ;D
MisterE

Social climber
Bouldering the Gnar
Jul 7, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
Well put, Mr. Gomez.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
Does that 'Delete this post' thingy really work? And does that take all subsequent posts to hell with it?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Gunkie, you have the power.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
Update: Ammon & Kait were having lunch at the top of pitch 4 mid-afternoon today.
Then onto five.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Does that 'Delete this post' thingy really work? And does that take all subsequent posts to hell with it?

Does work, but not quite that way. If the first post in a thread is removed, the others are still there, but "orphaned" WRT the topics page. They are searchable, but the thread will not show up. More like purgatory ;-)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
Don't do it Gunkie! We all have too much ranting invested here!

[You have the power, amen, amen. Salami salami, baloney]

Hey wow, you can still see the sh|t stains on the slab in Randy's photo reposted above! Doesn't that stuff wash off after nearly thirty years?! It couldn't have anything to do with those giant black streaks on the headwall directly overhead, could it.

As per Annie's post above, "the monkeys are sending!"
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 7, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
I double Dog Dare you.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
of course if you delete it what has your 'power' gained you? and oh yeah, your power is gone..
Gene

climber
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
Can you delete after the 10 day statute of limitations?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
Like for bloody murder itself, the statute of limitations on flaming never runs out.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:03am PT
Mimi

climber

Jul 2, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
No plans for that, Joe. Contrary to earlier statements, Steve never planned on getting on the route. We did discuss climbing Horse Chute and taking a look and recording any evidence and then rapping and chopping it along the way. But then I scored this really good job and those plans fell through. Oh, and for the record, you are one of the lovers. You are one of the lovers, healy. You are one of the lovers, healy.



Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA

Nov 25, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
Certainly do and I choose to spend some of my energy here on the ST doing all sorts of posting. These guys bellowing for an apoogy is one of the reasons that I showed up here, nkay?

If any of you folks can't stand the tone, content or direction of my comments then just ignore the thread in question and peruse something else.

These guys really like the attention when all is said and done and only choose to participate on this forum when their routes are the subject of discussion.

A couple days climbing up and down and I will be quite content with the situation.

Matt- What are you doing next spring?



'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Nov 25, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
Holy frig, Steve! Are you looking for a belayer for Wings of Steel???!!!!

ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111


I'll be there with f*#kin' BELLS ON, dude, to belay you up Wings of Steel!!! Dude, I'll bring the biggest longest baddest-ass camera lens you've ever seen, and I'll record every millimetric move you make!! It'll be awesome, man! I'll get Kate and her Blackberry, and we'll upload live to McTopo and everyone can watch!!!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111



Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA

Nov 25, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
You'll have your answer next spring on the enhancements unless I find something better to do.

Almost the entire Downward Spiral thread went without a response from you or Mark and quite frankly screw you and your dismissive little statement of petulance. It didn't work on Mimi and won't accomplish anything on this Forum.

I don't really give a rat's ass on a cold day whether you choose to respond to anything that I say or question that I ask. That is entirely up to you, as always.

As Matt duly noted, you guys leave the conversation whenever your position or support for it begins to wane. No different here when you feel that you are on a high note and would like to end the controversy that follows your climbing career around like a nasty fart. Ignoble fate for you but entirely warranted.

Stay away if you can but you guys haven't gained a shred of respect in my eyes as a historian. None of your efforts on El Cap measure up to squat. Back to the shadows with you...

Cheers

Pete- I don't even care to meet you much less climb anything in your company. You missed your chance last season. That was Mimi and I on the Footstool while you carried on about "the last steep thing on El Cap that you hadn't done" once you determined that she was a girl. Dream on...



Prod

Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 17, 2010 - 05:47am PT
HEy Steve,

Didn't you say something about heading up WoS this spring? Sure would like to hear how those plans are evolving.

Prod.



Prod

Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2010 - 10:37am PT
Nov 26, 2009 SG quote.

No substitute for direct examination and that is my intention. The matter will be settled as a result. What could be better?!?

Prod.



Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR

Jul 2, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
He was pretty adamant about it. I'd like to see him back up his words.



Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA

Jul 2, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
Help yourself Matty!

The matter should be resolved this Fall.




Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM

May 19, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
That's cuz Grossman is being a pussy. Put up or shut up. God knows he could do it...

I would go do it but I have to redpoint Nutcracker first.

I'll be out there in October so maybe I can fit it in.


Jeremy



Rokjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno

May 19, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
Sh#t, guys.



You seen a picture of Grossman recently?





Remember Samson? (Man of the Sun?)


You is asking a lot. Time has flown, and its pretty close to twilight for those of us that actually remember this sh#t.





couchmaster

climber
pdx

Jul 4, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
$200 I offered to see Mimi and Steve Grossman do this? I MUST have been drinking. I would have been good for it then but that had a 1 year expiration date. If Ammon and Kaite (who are on it now) do it I'm good for a 40 ozer and I'll send Fish $2.00 via paypal for a beer just because. He can sh#t on their ropes if he wants to recreate the flavor of the original if he thinks it will help anyone.

BTW, Grossmans routes were amazing and his posts here are all fantastic, with the exception of his bitching on the WOS carp. Big respect still to the man. I'd like to see him confront this demon yet, wish he was up with Ammon and kaite for that reason.


Take care all



freerider

Trad climber
innsbrooklyn




Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 24, 2010 - 07:04am PT
If so, who was it? I read SG was going to get on it this fall? How did it go?

I looked at Winds of Change from the Aquarian Wall, and that looked really sketchy! Anyone tried to repeat that?



Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA

Dec 24, 2010 - 10:14am PT
Inspection rescheduled for next spring...


RURPS

climber
Where's the Choss?

Dec 24, 2010 - 10:45am PT
MAMS!!@!#!

YOur nOT DoiNG ANYTHING on Z Captian Nexzt SPRING~!@!#!

WAY TOO OLD, + MIMErs Is ur ONLY petner!!!

YOu iz Scared to FAIL due to INCONtenace.

Bring z Diapers et azzwhipes!!@#!@

RURPS



Aleister Crowley

Trad climber

Dec 24, 2010 - 01:52pm PT

God Willing, we Crowley's will bag WOSll before the Grossbergs. Amen



'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Jan 1, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
I'm belaying Grossman, and calling him names, for which I get a hundred bucks.

Note: With today's exchange rate, please make it one hundred CANADIAN dollars! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

Steve Grossman is a lame-ass has-been pussy with a big mouth and even smaller balls. I'll kiss his ass if he manages to lead even the first pitch, which I thought was desperate, and hugely beyond my ability.




madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA

Jan 3, 2011 - 03:24am PT
LOL! Just a question: If the route really has had people all over it, including to the top of the slab, as SG claims, then what can anybody hope to find out about any supposed "enhancements" WE did, lo these many ascents and almost three decades later?

The best argument SG could have made would have been to claim that NOBODY had been on the route but us, and then he cleanly and quickly bags the SA, and then he documents hundreds of straight-in enhancements. Sadly for him, none of that's gonna work. Hehe

Dozens of people have been on the initial pitches, probably half a dozen have been to the top of pitch five, and there's many rumors of at least one person getting to the top of the slab. SG isn't going to bag the route quickly and cleanly. And any "enhancements" he finds aren't ours (see our many statements and the first paragraph of this post).

This is pure hilarity for me at this point. That he should even care after so long, that he should think there is anything he can "prove" by the ascent, and that somehow he has gotten himself baiting into a "SA" that really isn't (if his claims are correct) and on which he has nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose. Go, SG, GO!

Prediction: SG takes falls on pitch one, claims that the route is unrepeatable without additional drilling of the sort he CLAIMS we did (but cannot substantiate, and that we deny), then bails with the haughty statement that such a contrived heap isn't worth the time of a serious climber such as himself anyway. Oh, wait, he's already made all those claims. All we're waiting on now are the inevitable falls and grandiose bail.

Go, SG, GOOOOO!!!




Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA

Jan 3, 2011 - 09:05am PT
Much more like obfuscation meets vagary but that's why I have to inspect the route again to see for myself.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:11am PT
Ammon up: Wings of Steel

Ammon down: Wings of Nylon






(suck it Mtucker)
WBraun

climber
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Ammon is god ......

And Kate is princess .....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 8, 2011 - 01:52am PT
First post of this thread, cut and paste while it's still here.

Gunkie

Topic Author's Original Post - May 17, 2005 - 10:43am PT
Has Wings of Steel ever seen a repeat?

The only reason I'm asking is because I was looking at the recent valley flooding images on the internet and ran into Chris Falkenstein's web site (www.yosemitestock.com) and saw a pretty interesting shot of a team low on Wings of Steel. Are not the lower pitches of Wings of Steel the crux pitches anyway?

Just curious.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:47am PT
not fer nothin'-
but the FA team ought to be GRATEFUL to those (many) who have so loudly criticized them!
































does anyone really believe anyone would have bothered hooking up a slab for the 2nd, absent all the controversy?

the legacy of a route in an area like YV is as much about those who will follow as it about the FA.

so finally there will now be a second-
the really interesting question is less about whether Ammon and Kait can visually identify 30yr old micro-enhancements to hook placements and more about whether anything they'll have to say about the climb is in any way inspiring to a potential 3rd or a 4th ascent team.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 8, 2011 - 04:31am PT
Exactly matt and that's the point I made a year ago out here. I don't care how hard it is... if it was great climbing people would be on it. What I said was that if no one ever seconded it I didn't think there was any classic great climbing being missed out on. Just a hunch. :)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 8, 2011 - 04:46am PT
The whole discussion, and the SA at this point I would guess, is about verifying the reality of the route versus all the bullshit that's been laid down since - not climbing a classic.

Also, I know from my perspective I couldn't care less if anyone climbs my FAs. I don't know about you, but don't climb for other people, so don't care if anyone else ever sees what I saw in any given line I put up.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2011 - 07:50am PT
First post of this thread, cut and paste while it's still here.


No worries. I'm not about to delete this thread nor the first post... seriously. I may have been bored or had a cocktail last evening.

I am also following Ammon & Kait (Edit: as per PTPP's info) vicariously from 3000 miles away. You guys rock! And if anyone has the technology to take a few game photos, please post up!
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
Healyjoe, the only first ascent that I know about you have done except for the FarSide choss, you named Menopause.....nobody does it because who the hell would want to do a climb with that name, plus it looks like a pile. Put on your Depends and take your Geritol. Now Wings of Steel, that has a nice ring to it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
the really interesting question is less about whether Ammon and Kait can visually identify 30yr old micro-enhancements to hook placements and more about whether anything they'll have to say about the climb is in any way inspiring to a potential 3rd or a 4th ascent team.

If they can't, or even have trouble identifying micro-enhancements, maybe they don't mean squat. Cause I can sure tell where people pound pins, place heads, garden and do everything else that we accept on virtually every El Cap Climb. What's the alternative to a micro-enhaned hook? Rivet? in the past- bathook.

Peace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 8, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Healyjoe, the only first ascent that I know about you have done except for the FarSide choss, you named Menopause.....nobody does it because who the hell would want to do a climb with that name, plus it looks like a pile. Put on your Depends and take your Geritol. Now Wings of Steel, that has a nice ring to it.

I didn't name it, it ain't an FA yet given it steps out over 7-8 roofs, and yeah you don't know about my FAs - and what would be the point anyway given you couldn't lead them? But really, do try and keep your forums straight.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 8, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
I couldn't lead them? Do you know something I don't Joe? Did you pull on slings or something? Maybe we should take your challenge to Beacon when it opens and see what we can see, your secrect routes that no one can do. For a guy who doesn't crack climb, thats quite a throwdown you just made. But probably this Forum not the applicable place for a shootout, as Wings of Steel defintely eclipes any of our local climbing. Bring it on over at Cascade Climbers, ALL you can handle bro..!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 8, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
...that's quite a throwdown you just made

Not really - but I can't think of a more appropriate thread for a spinoff throwdown. Oh, and just so we're clear, no dogging or pulling on gear of any kind has ever happened on an FA of mine. And nothing secret about the routes, you walk under them every time you walk down to go climb at Beacon - all you have to do is look up as you walk under the roofs (granted, most people don't).
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 8, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Just so you guys know, Ammon's partner's name is Kait Barber, and it's spelled thus. She is a sweetie and so is her mom [apparently our only live reporter!], but there is only one Princess of the El Cap Bridge. ;)

When I saw Ammon recently, I asked him about enhancements - any enhancements, micro or otherwise - on the first few pitches he had climbed, and he told me he couldn't see any. I couldn't see any, either, when I was up there a few years ago, and I was specifically looking for them. It would appear that Mark and Richard did a very precise job in their enhancing/cheating/creating, and did it precisely as explained in the "WoS Confessions" post here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&tn=0&mr=0

I doubt Ammon will report "great" climbing, but I know he will report hard climbing. The absence of a complete second ascent appears to be mostly a function of how difficult the climbing is, and how "samey" the climbing is with long hard runouts and multiple falls required to piece together the hooking sequence.

I really loved Hummermachine's selections of previous posts, and laughed out loud at some of the stuff I and others wrote! The whole Wings of Steel story - right from the beginning - has been amazingly captivating to me. I think I might try to write up something of a recap - it's been interesting how many myths have so far been debunked, yet how many continue to remain. The personalities are so powerful, along with the stands that certain individuals have taken [rigid, unyielding] while others' minds have appeared more open.

But I think at the heart of the matter - and the reason Wings of Steel is so fascinating to all of us - is not necessarily the climb itself, but rather the way Mark Smith and Richard Jensen have been treated over the years, and the slow but gradual realization that perhaps they are not the villains they were once made out to be.

When someone puts up a first ascent on El Cap, the route gets repeated, and on this particular crag, pretty much every route is good - El Cap climbing is really that superb. You don't hear people say "such and such a route on El Cap is crap". In fact, I've never heard that said. I can tell you I disliked NA Wall because of its traversing or SOH because of its chimneys, but it doesn't mean I'm dissing the routes. There are plenty of people here who believe those are two of the finest routes on El Cap, even though they are among my least favourites.

So first ascensionists come and put up a route, and then go on their way, and for the most part, the route they put up is a small portion of their lives. It's something on their resume. But Wings of Steel was far far more than that for Mark and Richard - it very much became a DEFINING point in their lives. Not THE defining moment, because by all accounts they lead rich lives with loving families and successful careers, but certainly a very significant moment.

And this significance was not of their own seeking. What happened to Richard Jensen and Mark Smith was arguably the most vicious character assault in the history of climbing! It began on the wall with the chopping of their route and the sh|tting upon of their ropes, continued with open hostility from some of the "in crowd" of Valley Locals, went on to include snide guidebook entries and libellous big wall textbook references, and extends into internet forums to this day. I'm surprised they never got beat up.

Has there ever been a climber who was so maligned as Mark and Richard? Has any other climber ever been assaulted with the unending libel and slander that Mark and Richard have had to endure? I'm trying hard to think of someone, but nobody comes to mind. [Help me out here, eh?] And the attacks weren't confined merely to the route, but rather to the identities, characters, and credibility of the first ascensionists themselves. It was something that followed them around wherever they went, especially within the climbing community and to a lesser degree outside of it too, and had far reaching implications in their lives beyond El Capitan.

Since climbing Wings of Steel, Mark and Richard spent a quarter-century trying to simply be understood, and were pretty much shut down on all fronts. They wrote magazine articles, which were either rejected, disbelieved, or unnoticed. They wrote a book, but their detractors accused them of seeking fame or adulation. They talked to other climbers, but nothing really seemed to work. When I began regularly climbing El Cap in 1995, I too believed the lies, assuming that the two of them were mad bolters who had done a botch job on El Cap and had thus been run out of the Valley on a rail, never daring to show their faces here again.

It really wasn't until they were heard and begun to be understood here on McTopo five and a half years ago that the tide began to slowly turn in their favour. They and their route may never achieve "acceptance", but they are at least on their way to being "understood".

I very much look forward to hearing Kait and Ammon's feedback from the route, and wish them continuing success!

Cheers, eh?
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
From Ammon and Kait this A.M.:
"Pitch 5 the real deal - heads up scary!
No bolts or rivet ladders so far.
We see no evidence that anyone has come past the anchor at pitch 4, due to no bail slings."

And this mama has no clue what any of the above means - hahaha
But they assured me you all do.

So onwards and upwards pitch six they will begin soon.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
THANK YOU for the update!!

OP, please do not nuke this thread.
Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
god I have been sucked in...

Pete, for once you make perfect sense. I agree whole heartily with what you just wrote. Thank you.

Ammon and Kait, good on you guys, hope all is well up there! Finally someone decides to shut up the masses and just go do it. Ego aside and climb the climb for what it is... a climb.

My question is why attack these two? Yes we have heard the argument about the Bird but what about the others? What about Jim Beyer while doing the Martyrs Brigade route and chopping parts of other routes and booby Trapping others? Why is Eric Sloan not ran out of the Valley for drilling on classic routes? The list could go on... these are guys that are affecting other routes, not doing first ascents. Just seems weak sauce in my book.

For those who have done an FA bigwall most will do whatever they can to produce a climb that you are proud of when finished. It becomes your "baby" of sorts, but as the FA team they are the captain of their own ship and leave behind a small legacy of the type of climber that they where. Steve G. along with Mr. Cole left behind routes with min drilling, hard free climbing, and boldness. The WOS guys left behind a few routes that climbed the great slab and still as of today remained unrepeated! That to me says something way more then "the Sea" or "Jolly Roger" this climb has had attempts by some of the strongest wall climbers and turned them all back... So bravo Richard and Mark looks like a wonderful route that has stood the test of time. I believe in the benefit of the doubt, I hope your motives were pure up there and soon if Ammon and Kait send we will know the truth. If that happens I hope that Mr. Steve G. can look past his own ego and write up a reply to the boys. Apology I think it is called these days, which in my opinion would be the boldest and raddest move done to date.

Kurt Burt
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Rock on daughter! Ammon and you are kicking some butt up there! Pete: You are right ..Kait is a sweetie but she's a tough sweetie. you're right about Annie too! Thanks for the support!

Pops
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Jul 8, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
I've enjoyed lurking on the WoS threads for years without ever commenting, so this is my first. The comments of 'Pass the Pitons' Pete--who I have never met (I'm a small wall climber)--have always struck me as being the most reasonable, rational and cool-headed of anybody commenting on these threads. Thanks, Pete, whoever you are! The more I read about this controversy, the more I respect the achievements of Richard and Mark. In my mind the reputation of WoS has been enhanced more by Richard and Mark's critics than by anything they are alleged to have done wrong.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 8, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Well said Pete! Pete has spent more time on El Cap then just about anyone, except maybe Chris mac. Pete's a super nice guy in person, generous with his wisdom and advice on big wall gear and stuff. Respect!
Go Ammon and Kait, Rock it!!!
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 8, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
I might head up there Sunday for a looksee. Pics will be forthcoming. I don't have a ELCAPPICS lens, but a decent one.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 8, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
I would suggest that there have been many more climbers that have been more maligned than Richard and Mark. Most of them were from the alpine zone or flaunted their lycra though.

Pff. Outside Mag or Nat Geo Adventure never got glossy on their character assassinations.

Nonetheless, in the microcosm of weirdness that is the valley - especially in the post-Stonemaster twilight, those guys are right up there. WOS stands as a testiment to their singularity.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 8, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
Well said Pete,

And I do know Pete personally and although I do give him a bit of crap now and then he is a good guy and unlike many others here he takes it in stride:) He is in the Valley every spring and every fall which is more than a lot of other people.

Climbing is more about ones personal journey or challenge. WoS was Richards and Marks personal journey and Challenge now it will be Ammons and kaits. Climbers walk by the base of that route every spring and fall. Some may take notice and some may not. Good climbs surround it that have seen many ascents . IMO more interesting routes than WoS but like Pete said a route that may appeal to one may not to another.

Go Ammon and kait
Gerg

Boulder climber
Calgary
Jul 8, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
The amount of text written about this could publish a WOS book #2. I have not read the first** book, but I am so intrigued to get a copy now. Not Christian so I hope that part is not too heavy, but from what i have skimmed over 652 posts(growing every hour)we could all do with some spiritual insight. I agree with Pass Piton Pete's words, well said.

**2nd ascentionists should write book #2.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 8, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
My question is why attack these two
?

The valley was traditionally unkind to "outsiders" back in the day. Particularly ones not climbing like the status quo.

Skinner, Jardine, and the WOS crew. They did it different. Some of their acts are still being condemned while many innovations are not standard practice

Peace

Karl
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 8, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
The occasional clannish hostility to outsiders in Yosemite goes back to well before Wings of Steel, certainly to Dihedral Wall in 1962. A lot may have to do with insecurity, that is that "outsiders" would show up and prove themselves every bit as good climbers as those in Yosemite, who promoted themselves and their techniques as leading edge. Some to do with personalities - small groups always have difficulty accepting new members. And a lot to do with adolescent testosterone loaded behaviour.

Ultimately, neither side is right. Right through the 1960s and 1970s, outside climbers appeared in the Valley and did quickly make a mark. Baldwin and Cooper with Dihedral Wall in 1962, Jim Madsen, Kim Schmitz and Mead Hargis in the late 1960s (plus Neil Bennett, Gordie Smaill and that wave of Canadians), then in the early 1970s Charlie Porter, Jimmie Dunn, Steve Sutton, Hugh Burton and other Canadians, and in the later 1970s Eric Weinstein, Daryl Hatten, and Peter Croft. (And others - sorry, easier to remember the Canadians.) Some culturally fitted in, some didn't. Some were poorly treated, usually for specious reasons. (Dihedral Wall may have been a step back in style, given use of fixed ropes, but its steepness, difficulty and lack of ledges justified it. Likewise WoS seems sui generis, and the fact that it's unrepeated after 30 years, and inspires respect in those few with actual knowledge of the route and its difficulty, speaks for itself.) Most were as competent as the "natives".

There's also some possessive, territorial behaviour underneath it all.

I doubt that WoS will ever be popular, whatever may actually have been done (or not) to climb it. It's one of a kind.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 8, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
Don't overlook Kroger's and Davis' commando plum heist. They didn't want
to get 'embroiled'.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 8, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
Wow! Thanks, Annie. If Ammon says that pitch 5 is the Real Deal and is heads up scary, then that has got to be one pretty darn hard pitch indeed! Ammon has climbed some of the hardest routes on El Cap, and climbed some of them in a push. So if he says it's hard...

Dang. Sweaty hands again. Could the fifth pitch be harder than the first two? Or as hard?

It's especially great to see Kait's family responding! Welcome aboard, Tarz! Grab your vine and swing on up there, dude - us Cubical Pukes are dying for some pix! And we still await the arrival on this thread of that reprobate pirate first mate, Gabe.

Fatty, you are right. Caesar Maestri was more maligned than Richard and Mark. However it would appear that he deserved it, because all evidence indicates he did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre - ever - but that he lied and said he did. Here on Wings of Steel, the more hard evidence that comes to light, the more corroboration we have that Mark and Richard didn't lie about anything.

Vindication is a journey not a destination, but we are making significant inroads here now.

Thank you for your kind comments, and especially your thoughtful input and analysis. I never thought of myself as an historian, philospher or psychologist, but this whole Wings of Steel story captivates me like none other. I need to do some more writing.

I love to root for the underdog, the maligned, and the downtrodden. I like to see the truth revealed as best as possible as objectively as possible. I like to see the goat horns chopped, and I especially love to see credibility restored where previously stolen.

Someone get up there with a damn camera, will ya?! This is history in the making. Randy, where the heck are you? Tarz, can you get there any sooner? Nanook - throw the kid in your backpack and take a run down there! Bullwinkle - you've got a camera, don't you?

Go go Ammon and Kait!

Cheers,
Pete

P.S. Studly, I have indeed spent more time on the side of El Cap than anyone - 463 nights not counting base and summit bivis. I've done more routes than Chris Mac [43 different ones] although he has made more ascents of El Cap than me. Ammon has climbed over 50 different routes, everything from single day pushes on hard and dangerous nailups to multi-day big wall camping expeditions, which is more along my style. Erik E. and Steve Gerberding remain out front, both of them pushing sixty different routes. All three of those guys are moving targets, but I remain tenacious ... for a Big Wall Parvenu. And speaking of upstarts, Nanook and Steve Schneider are nippin' at me 'eels knocking on around forty different routes.

P.P.S. Annie - please ask if they have seen any signs of enhanced or chipped placements, or any holes. Have they replaced any more of the existing fixed anchors like we did on the first two pitches, or just gone for it with the existing bolts and Z-mac rivets from the first ascent party? Also, any more whippers [falls], and if so how many and how long? Thanks again for your reports!
hollyclimber

Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
Jul 8, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
I can say this - Ammon's screaming up there is IN-tense. We were up doing some climbing in that zone on Wednesday. Knarly.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 8, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 8, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
It must be all the A3. He never screams on A2.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 8, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Where'd Mimi go?

This thread needs conflict.

Prod.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 8, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
The best WoS question that I was just reminded about was from Russ.

Something along the lines of....

If you were required to micro enhance, then is the SA required to also do this? If so, how are they supposed to know where to do this?

Prod.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 8, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
The repeatability question seems to be put to rest. Ammon has found a way to hook with what's there, be it natural or micro-enhanced, it all looks the same - desperate.
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
Jul 8, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
Mighty...

The occasional clannish hostility to outsiders in Yosemite goes back to well before Wings of Steel

I remember more than once Mark Klemens being VERY direct in his approach to outsiders. Makes pooping on ropes seem tame.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:29am PT
JB: Is it cheating to wear shoes with 5.10 rubber while hooking less than 90 degrees?

I've long felt that the 'natural' progression of dry tooling/mixed climbing would be to use ice tools and rock shoes, in summer. Imagine really sharp tools - probably with leashes, but bring a file - combined with sticky rubber, say on WoS.

And a few ascents with ice tools would quickly put to bed arguments about hypothetical or real enhancements. Perhaps it would also be possible to have an ice farming operation, dribbling water onto the slab from above, for those who want the winter experience.
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:46am PT
If Ammon comes down and says this was harder than Jolly Roger, will MIMI divorce Steve and try and hook up with Richard? I mean obviously she'll be too old and uncool to get Ammon.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:51am PT
prod, I pointed this out earlier as Russ did. Ammon's screaming up there is not a surprise. He isn't drilling his placements as he goes. Unlike the FA. I hope he knows to reach for a narrow Logan. And I hope he hasn't dropped his drill sharpening stones. LOL!

It's funny that so many of you so readily accept that the FA basically enhanced the entire great slab. Way to go guys. Such high standards. The official wos tally has 145 narrow Leeper Logan hook placements. How many of these do you think were created with a drill or a chisel on that area of El Cap? How many of you comprehend this simple question? Or do you think these guys having nearly zero hooking experience were so talented to pull this off clean? There were several eyewitness accounts at the base that heard the constant tapping during their amazing 39 days on the wall.

The sound of constant tapping also followed these guys up their next two El Cap disasters; Ring of Fire and Winds of Change. They were reported to the rangers for Ring of Fire by other climbers on either side on the wall demanding that they be made to stop. If you bother to read their accounts, they denounce these routes and continue to hold wos up as their proudest accomplishment. If they were so good, why did they admittedly butcher the next two FAs that they put up? And all the while, they used the Bridwell standard as their MO. If it was okay for him to do it, it's okay for us.

That's all that's missing from ending this controversy once and for all. Bwana just needs to come clean. But he won't. He's a victim of terminal false pride. And obfuscation. But such is the reign of the Philosopher-King Richard of Hindsight. And his trusty steed.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:55am PT
these guys having nearly zero hooking experience

They did an early repeat of Sea of Dreams... whats your hooking experience?

(purposely leaving out hilarious but overly obvious pun)
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:57am PT
bringmecrap, no worries there. The hooking on the JR that Steve did roughly at the same time as these clowns had a drill taken to it destroying the original natural hooking. Unfortunately, Ammon never got to experience anything like the FA. We're as curious to hear how this goes as anyone else. And again, neither Steve or I have ever held a position that this route isn't difficult. It's how it was crafted. This is the basis of the argument. The mudslinging is background noise that is so typical of internet forums these days. As I said before, lovers vs. haters. You choose.

GDavis edit: you remind me of white trash. No surprise.

Bwana brags about how easy he found the Sea due to the huge carved out hook placements assuming it was in its FA state. It bolstered his defense of their own carving, since in his mind, their's was less obtrusive. Like that justified what they did. Another speed ascent on their part, about 15 days. Every pitch A5 to these hooking experts.
Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:02am PT
Mimi if A0 bathooking is what was done, then why hadn't your husband gotten up there and done the proper thing and erase that route on lead? I have plenty of hooking experience and a bathook is a bathook... easy. Hey Warren H. and Grant erased parts of Ring of Fire on lead... so what gives? If this was such a great concern to you and Steve then sounded like a perfect mission for the climbing/ethic police to go up and clean things up... hell I think that hell route over by Native Son needs to get chopped as well, you two are going to be busy...

And reporting these guys to the rangers??? Jesus, at the end of the day it's a f*#king rock... and these guys are putting up a new route, but so many of these wankers will allow people to drill on established routes then hang on the bridge like they are some type of hero... Think things are way out of wack here...

Kurt Burt
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:05am PT
GDavis edit: you remind me of white trash. No surprise.




Bwana brags about how easy he found the Sea due to the huge carved out hook placements assuming it was in its FA state.

How did you find it? My friend who led Valhalla when he was 18 said it was easy, so i tell people it is too.



I have no idea if the route is hard or not, what the route is like, if it is 100% enhanced or the super gnargnargnar that some claim.

What I DO know is that depending on who you talk to it is either a) badass or b) not as difficult as reported. Depending on who you talk to.

You seem to want to focus on it being bullsh!t, because if you are wrong you have to eat crow. if Ammon says its a crap climb, I don't have a pony in the race. I haven't been up there. You seem married to the idea (figuratively and literally) that the route is sh#t because there is just so much hate you've invested in their style for the last 30 years (longer than I have been alive, btw).

Instead of having some extremely negative thought patterns, how about you excessive some restraint before passing judgement? There are probably hundreds lurking here, waiting to see yet another person give their opinion. The route could be all you profess, I am not saying that is out of the possibility. But why be so entrenched in your thought pattern?



(that image, by the way, is a Bundt cake. Because your acting really Bundty.)
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:11am PT
kurtburt: the fact that peer pressure about standards hasn't worked in a long time is a shame. The rock that we adore is what suffers in the long run. And your attitude that it's just a f*#king rock pretty much says it all. We're not police, I just hate liars. When I first got on the ST, I stumbled on the very first wos thread early on. I couldn't believe how Bwana was gloating in the spotlight when the audience at the time had not a clue about what they had done. I called them historical revisionists and he went ballistic. Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating? Do you think for a minute that Ammon couldn't fly up that thing if he also cheated? 39 days! Think about it. Read their stupid book.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:13am PT
Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating?

Is that what they did? Geez, why didn't you tell anybody you were there for the SA, we could all save ourselves some trouble!


/eatscrow
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:22am PT
Gf*#khead: why not argue the facts instead of taking shots at me? Or is it the Christian persecution angle that draws you to these guys?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:33am PT
neither Steve or I have ever held a position that this route isn't difficult. It's how it was crafted. This is the basis of the argument.


exactly.
so much apparent vindication in this thread reads "oh wow, so the route really is hard!"

no sh#t it's hard- duh.
that was never the point.

the argument was always about leaving the stone for someone who could climb it without bringing it down to their level, and nothing more.

the assumption has ALWAYS been that the 2nd ascent will in fact be FAR harder than the 1st


people posting here who glorify the FA have long been glorifying the FA.
one particular fella who loves him some jesus loves that these fellas also love them some jesus, and that's the reason he is so invested in this route and these guys, seriously, it's not complicated.


the really really really funny thing is the emails i have from the guy on the wall now telling me about the time he almost kicked said christian soldier's ass for getting all smarmy and suggestive with a 15yr old girl in the meadow, right in front of him, now THAT is some good sh#t bag throwin right there!
(i mean seriously, spending nights on a canvas ledge is not the only thing you are well known for, is it now?)

but what happens on ST is the peeps with long term agendas just wait it out til fewer and fewer people remember the damning material, and whala- let's tell a NEW STORY HERE!



HEY- GUESS WHAT- WOS is REALLY HARD!!! VINDICATION for RICHARD and MARK!!! HOORAY!!!













or not.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:34am PT
Gf*#khead: why not argue the facts instead of taking shots at me?


Its just too
God.
Damn.
Easy.



Seriously though, lets talk facts. This is fun. I like having these discussions with you, honestly, its like word problems for 5th graders.

Fact #1) This climb was put up in a style perceived as shitty. This amounts to a) long time on the route, b) enhancing placements and c) it was put up by outsiders (don't agree? Remember that route Cosmos? I don't because it was while John Lennon was still making music but I don't think I need to educate a person of your esteemed coat-tail riding stature).

Fact #2) Their ropes were cut and shat on, had fatty turds dumped on them, had the rangers called on them.

Fact #3) They defended, ad naseum, their positions online.

Lets start with Fact #1. I don't know HOW many enhancements. It was probably more than 1, and probably less than 145. Until we a) come up with a number of enhancements and b) figure out how many is 'appropriate' to have, we have no yard stick to hate on them for that. As far as the time they took, I would say having sh#t tossed at you and your gear cut is ample street justice, if not a bit heavy handed, no? And as far as their crime for being outsiders, we don't need to argue that being an issue. They have lead at least 1 more El Cap route than you and I, correct? They might have more Wall experience than us then. Move along.

Fact #2. Street justice. This doesn't bother you. Are you into German Porn?

Fact #3. Homeboys are long winded in their arguments. I have a friend that does that. Super annoying. But, hey, some people just talk that way. You are short and to the point. I like that about you babs. Just take 3 sentences to call someone an as#@&%e or f*#k head or whatever, boom, end of discussion. Leaves a bit up for debate, I would argue, but hey everyone has their tools.


Again, these are FACTS. Things that are not facts are unknowns - the number of enhancements, the quality of the climbing, what qualifies as a good hook placement. We can only speculate based on what others have said. These others are everyone from Pete (your BFF), Slater, The Chief, Kevin Thaw and, soon, Ammon and Kait. Lets rule out Pete, since you obviously hate his guts. I'll also rule out Slater, the bad ass dude was too rad for this world and is no longer here to drone on like us idiots.

This leaves Chief, Thaw and soon Ammon. Kevin Thaw, according to you (why would you lie?) said the route was modern A3, not difficult, and had many enhanced hooks. The Cheif said it was legit. Ammon will be our third vote.

This is logic, facts if you will.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:36am PT
And all the while, they used the Bridwell standard as their MO. If it was okay for him to do it, it's okay for us
well.....yep Mimi, I guess that pretty much sums up the 1st ascent, and alpine and trad climbing in general for that matter. If you want to hold the yardstick higher, good for you, but don't knock the gold standard!
Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:44am PT
kurtburt: the fact that peer pressure about standards hasn't worked in a long time is a shame. The rock that we adore is what suffers in the long run. And your attitude that it's just a f*#king rock pretty much says it all. We're not police, I just hate liars. When I first got on the ST, I stumbled on the very first wos thread early on. I couldn't believe how Bwana was gloating in the spotlight when the audience at the time had not a clue about what they had done. I called them historical revisionists and he went ballistic. Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating? Do you think for a minute that Ammon couldn't fly up that thing if he also cheated? 39 days! Think about it. Read their stupid book.

Mimi, shitting on someones ropes, death threats, and the other nonsense is what i mean... if you guys feel that passionately about the rock then please feel free to attack many of the posters on this site that have climbed the captain and drilled an extra belay bolt, or a hole to get by a move, or a head placement that is crap... better eat some fiber cause your gonna need it. I agree with self policing and trying to get climbers to see that they can do things without drilling, and if they can't then move on to something less difficult and this means belay anchors... I have posted about this before and got blasted cause Mike called this person out and I agreed. http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=963.0The spirit of climbing is dead. Did those guys drill up the route? We will soon know when Ammon gets down. Ammon is far from "flying up this route as well. I have climbed with Ammon not only on an FA but also speed climbing, and trust me he is one of the fastest and best out there. So a 2 pitch a day rate or hell 4 pitches a day is slow, and this means the ground he is on is real. If every hook was drilled, or even every 3rd the climbing would go a lot faster. Was it in the style that Steve did his routes? Well they took longer... that is about all we know. Unless these "people" who witnessed the drilling come forth and have better evidence then "I heard a tap" know one but the FA team and Ammon and Kait have the answer. The hatred you throw towards these fellow climbers is insane... I would have went off the deep end as well spent 39 days up there just to get away from the quack jobs on the valley floor.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:45am PT
As I said before - at the end of pitch five and before they began up 6, Ammon had done it true! I would think that his screams would attest to that! I know that is their desire. And I'll find out more tomorrow.

Pete, tomorrow, I'll try and remember to ask them the finer points of your latest inquiry.

And yeah, they both wish Gabe (the first mate) was with them, but he is off on an adventure. If I could have heli'd him in on Wednesday - I would have!

I can only imagine an Ammon scream that just keeps repeating itself! What an epic thus far! Keep up the thread - the positivity is being felt by the two of them - and the negativity is being ousted. Woot Woot! Thanks for that!

Ciao!
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 01:48am PT
studly, I disagree. These guys found validation in bad practices and tried to use it to their advantage. One Grade V between the two of them when they left the ground. Hardly contenders. I'm sure they'll both be on here soon. You can see if you have better luck than we have to get Bwana to fess up his hole count. The Sea and the PO and other Bridwell routes are lines which follow weaknesses and crack systems. These guys shunned cracks and natural weaknesses and contend the real test of a man is out upon the blankness. They wrote this in their book. Klaus lurks here. He'll happily tell you a story about where Winds of Change crosses Hole World. You tell me if there's something out of whack here or not. The winds were blowing, but nothing had really changed. LOL!

Mom of Kait: The only negativity here is toward the first two clowns that went up there. And not against the current team. We are all routing for Ammon and Kait to succeed. Their effort will result in the climb being viewed in a much better light.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:06am PT
These guys shunned cracks and natural weaknesses and contend the real test of a man is out upon the blankness.
No offense, but I guess I have to agree with them. I crack climb allot, but last Fall I ended up taking about a 50 footer on steep slab in the Valley, ass over teakettle, brutal. Screw that slab sh#t, that stuff is for real men. Wings of Steel, they must mean Nerves of Steel.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:13am PT
studly, hahahaha. You're missing the point but I get your point. Sorry, you need to read their book. It's a strange education to follow the story of this saga. It's all about the Great Gleaming Slab of Jesus.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:22am PT
There were several eyewitness accounts at the base that heard the constant tapping during their amazing 39 days on the wall.

 Who are the eyewitness/earwitnesses?
 Were they really at the base for 39 consecutive days, that is, one or another there the whole time, listening and recording what they heard?
 Can they post up here, with their report?

Bearing in mind that the number of holes admitted to would involve a fair amount of drilling.

Can't Ed H invent a time machine, and send Ansel Adams back 29 years, with the right gear, to record what happens? Maybe an invisibility machine, too?
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:31am PT
Anders, you need to back off of the nutmeg. It's getting late.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:31am PT
what really gets lost here in these post 2000 stupidtopo threads is that you cannot look at this stuff TODAY, when climbing gyms and bolted craggs are the norm, and see this effort in the same light as it was seen in its era.

that's the agenda of the pro WoS FA clan, led proudly and loudly by pedro there.

in that time, in that era, to launch into a sea of granite with no natural features for protection, to drill every bit of protection you needed for what, 1300 ft or something(?), to manufacture what advancement you could muster (even if so very lightly so, still systematically so as well), that was a different thing then, it was not 2011.

you CANNOT GO BACK.

hard route, fine, great, super.

it was a climb in a certain era, and that era made it's own judgement.
there is no do-over.

all you can say now is that it's hard.
ammon mcneely is def a bad man on the big stone-
but nothing he or his partner say about this line is likely to get it more ascents, and nothing he or his partner say is going to change what the people of the time thought of the climb, the line, the effort, the tactics, or the end result.

fair?
unfair?
who knows.
doesn't matter.
that ship has sailed.






you cannot go back and call the gremlin or the pinto a totally way rad cool car either.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:36am PT
I know you be trippin knocking the Gremlin !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:45am PT
Thanks, Matt.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:56am PT
Yes, they probably took a whole day to put a belay in. They had so much gear, it is thought they chose to install five-bolt belays per pitch out of fear. If you were only there that day, if you didn't see they were at the belay, you might assume they were rampantly drilling up the route.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:01am PT
probably sucks to have so much riding on someone else...humans are so dissapointing...oh well, adapt or perish...


They had so much gear, it is thought they chose to install five-bolt belays per pitch out of fear.



guys, for the sake of American Literature, run a spell check... Dysfunction ... I'm outraged...
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:05am PT
treez, I thought your disfunction was nicely displayed in your last post. Glad you find mine interesting.

Back after this break from our sponsors.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:07am PT
Back after this break from our sponsors.



T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:12am PT
Greg your wit and sense of humor crack me up!
Shouldn't you be getting to bed as to get up early and head up to Tahquitz? See ya up there.

Go Ammon and Kait!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 9, 2011 - 04:03am PT
...it is thought they chose to install five-bolt belays per pitch out of fear.

Jesus, it's like a decades long hit parade of lies and outright fabrications swaddled in innuendo and bilious slander that just doesn't quit. A veritable Mimi Coulter of stone - bravo, babe, bravo. We can wait on Ammon's take on it, but you can tell from the reports so far they've already debunked your screeching bullsh#t.

Maybe try screaming it louder - ok now, from the top, and a one, and a two, and a ...
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 10:25am PT
Saturday morning coffee and WoS. Gotta love it.

I thought the "eye wittnesses" went up there at night, drunk or buzzed, tried to climb it a bit and failed, then chopped the route (pitch 1 and 2, causing the FA's to create the alternate start), and reported that it was a bolt ladder off the ground. These apparent liars, in my book, are guilty of a lot of the "local additude" toward the FA's.

Who were they?

My info is heresay, please inform me if I am mistaken about the events on the ground.

Prod.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Jul 9, 2011 - 10:39am PT

"They had so much gear, it is thought they chose to install five-bolt belays per pitch out of fear."

and I heard that it took them so long and there was so much tapping because the follower back-cleaned bolts that the leader used to ascend. Chop and fill, chop and fill. Wonder how many of the holes Ammon will be able to find?



Oh, and I heard that they did it out of cowardice, not just fear. Ohhhhh...




I heard.... oh, I can't make up rumors as fast as Mimi. Mind you, she has been working on since the beginning, a third of her lifetime or so? Or has it been a half or more of her lifetime? 30 years?...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 9, 2011 - 11:13am PT
Sounds like young and bold aid climbers are where it's AT...



































...and crusty old, has beens is where it AIN'T !!!!1111
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Coz:

WELL PUT!!!

My thought exactly
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jul 9, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
Gotta be pretty hot up on route , Hats off to Ammon and kate. You two are amazing climbers. GO!! Cheers
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
Well...
..."tough day yesterday. Hottest one so far. The start of pitch six is really proud! Water streaming down right now and have to wait for it to dry. Ammon dislocated his shoulder after a fall, but was able to pop it back in place. I puked! (not from shoulder - haha) Ammon only got 30 or so feet up 'cuz water over the years has washed some of route smooth, glaciated in spots. Still hooking! At least three times as many hook placements as there are rivets. Hardly any bolts on route so far, only at anchors and maybe two or three on a pitch. Monotonous! We want it done already."

Kait and Ammon just want to get this epic over and done with. I can hear it in their voices. I kept wondering why they weren't hauling ass in the coolness of the morning shade - just too wet at times. He never wants to do this route again, so is hoping to just get it done.

Hopefully some pics will be taken tomorrow and posted.

P.S. Pete, they don't want to comment right now on what you wanted me to ask them (on your yesterday's P.S.S. to me)??? And we had poor reception?!?!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
Will do. Saving my spot directly underneath you.

Firstly, I remain amazed with both Ammon's boldness and tenacity. When he climbed the first two pitches of the alternate start a few years ago, I remember him telling me that he considered the moves to be "samey" or "monotonous", these words being my paraphrase of what I recall him telling me several years back. He may also have used the word "boring" because of the repetitiveness of the moves. He also told me that these "monotonous" moves resulted in him taking three fifty-foot whippers!

Of the route's first two pitches this year, he told me that he had to make nearly every hook move from his top-steps, in order to find a [barely] hookable edge. The first pitch took him six hours to lead, and resulted in I believe he said three thirty-foot falls.

Now up on the fifth or six pitch, he has taken a fall so severe he dislocated his shoulder. A less motivated or tough individual would have bailed, but not Ammon - he merely popped his shoulder back into place and carried on.

I marvel that Ammon should describe such climbing as "monotonous!" But I also get it. I verily doubt that he will come down describing the climbing on Wings of Steel, or the route itself, as "classic". Perhaps he may describe it as "contrived"? Fair enough. Perhaps it could be called "a classic of its own kind"? This of course similar to being "a legend in one's own mind."

No matter. It is what it is. The one word he won't be able to use is "easy". This route appears to be as hard as they come. Because if a climber as experienced as Ammon takes so long to climb it, and takes as many falls as he does, you know it's got to be sick-desperate-hard.

So bravo on Ammon for sticking it out!

Annie, please give Ammon our best wishes for continued success, and no matter what - NO MATTER WHAT - please finish the damn route. Others have climbed as high as he has, and have subsequently bailed due to difficulty, exhaustion, lack of time, heat, or whatever. Remind Ammon of the substantial bounty of plunder that awaits his return to terra firma, and to keep on keepin' on til he completes the route NO MATTER WHAT.

Here is my P.P.S. from yesterday:

P.P.S. Annie - please ask if they have seen any signs of enhanced or chipped placements, or any holes. Have they replaced any more of the existing fixed anchors like we did on the first two pitches, or just gone for it with the existing bolts and Z-mac rivets from the first ascent party? Also, any more whippers [falls], and if so how many and how long? Thanks again for your reports!

So Annie, from the sounds of what you have written above, the climbing remains serious and has involved many more falls. It also sounds as though they have not replaced any anchors - true? To go for it on so hard a route requiring so many falls on nearly thirty-year-old fixed gear that was never very strong to begin with is a testament to the courage and dedication and sickness of Ammon. The quarter-inch bolts most likely have a shear strength of not much more than a thousand pounds - I have replaced many over the years and it is scary how easily some of them come out. The Zmacs have a nominal rating of four or five hundred pounds in concrete out of the box, probably stronger when new in granite, certainly weaker now after so long on a wet low-angle face.

Annie, can you please ask Kait and Ammon these specific questions:

1. Have they seen any bat holes or any other drilled holes? If so how many and where? If yes, do they look like the work of the first ascensionists, or a subsequent party?

2. Have they seen any chipped or enhanced hook placements? If so how many and where?

3. What kind of gear has Ammon been falling onto?

4. Has any of the fixed gear failed when falling on to it, or hauling from it?

5. Has he been using any fall arrester devices like Yates Screamers or Scream-Aids?

From what you quote above - "still hooking" - this suggests that Ammon has been able to repeat every move on natural hooks. True?

We have questioned the repeatability of this route, on account of the first ascensionists indicated they made micro-enhancements to approximately 10% of the hook placements, meaning about fifteen micro-enhancements over the entire length of the hooking section of the route. How many they made and how they did them are precisely and excruciatingly described on another post here.

I asked Ammon, and he told me he could see no evidence of enhancements on the first two pitches, and I couldn't see any either. I was delighted that Ammon could repeat the first two pitches with what hook placements were there, cuz I sure couldn't - too hard for me. It appears as though he continues to continue hooking.

We have wondered if any of these fifteen or so micro-enhancements might have been directly in the water streak, and if they could have been worn smooth by a quarter-century of erosion. It will be interesting to see if this is the case as he attempts to continue hooking on what's left as he climbs through the water streak.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
"did their thing," Coz. Sorry, I mean Sage. They sure did. For you to be one of the lovers having spent so much time in the Valley is a laugher.

tooth, I was making a joke about the number of anchors due to the 1,070 lbs and seven bags or so. And I'm not keen on rumors either.

Healy, are you really that stupid? Total denial.

The Goofball: to compare those two to the guys you posted is easily one of your classics. Warren does sort of fit in though. He actually dated BwanaMama. Those other two gents certainly don't want to be in the same category.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
You are clearly the one steeped in decades of screaming denial and bilious fabrications. Those guys up there have just proven you to be full of sh#t at every turn.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 9, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
Wow! It is amazing to me how Mimi's bitterness has apparently poisoned her ability to reason, or to read.

Please have a look at this post, where Mark and Richard describe in excruciating detail precisely how many enhancements they made on Wings of Steel, and how they made them:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&tn=0&mr=0

Here is an example of one of the diagrams Richard produced:


You guys really need to have a read of this post, because it is highly relevent to the discussion.

The short answer is, Mark and Richard micro-enhanced about ten percent of the placements, in other words about 15 in total. They did not drill their way up the slab, as Mimi [and others] used to contend, which has been discovered to be untrue, yet which she continues to contend. There is no evidence of bat holes or chipping or anything more invasive than precisely what Richard and Mark described in the link above. In spite of continuing accusations, the first ascensionists have not waivered in their assertion of what they did, nor have they changed their story.

Most significantly, what they said they did has been observed to be true by The Chief, me, and now Kait and Ammon.

Evidently what they made truly were MICRO-enhancements, since no evidence of them remains visible to the eyes of either me or Ammon and Kait. The bat holes Mimi has accused them of drilling in previous posts have failed to materialize. While you can argue whether micro-enhancing a hook placement on Wings of Steel is legit or not, the same way you can argue doing the same on Sea of Dreams is legit or not, or the same way you can argue chiselling a head rather than drilling a rivet is legit or not, a reasonable person can no longer say that Mark and Richard have lied about or misrepresented what they did.

Yet even now, Mimi continues to accuse Mark and Richard of lying and misrepresentation, or of not being forthright in explaining how much they drilled, when it has not only been explained, but also now supported.

It is amazing to me that this behaviour persists, when as more and more hard factual eyewitness testimony is presented, the more it appears that Mark and Richard have pretty much told the whole truth on every level.

Does the repetition of her lies and accusations - once considered back in the day by most everyone to be the truth but now debunked - somehow make them continue to be true? And this in spite of overwhelming and mounting evidence to the contrary, including the eye-witness testimony of myself and Ammon and The Chief?
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
Mimi= Wrong her whole life and too big of a poser has been now to admit it or comprehend.

Support wings of steel!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
I retain my prior view. I'll go around. Cheers!
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
Mimi has to be a dude in disguise with a small johnson...

Sometimes I wonder if it's just steve posting under the name? It just seems like too much hate for some old lady.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
Mimi is a real person (woman), lively company, and (I've heard) a competent climber. An entertaining person to spend time with, and it's no secret, someone with some strong opinions. Not at all a mouthpiece for Steve, or vice-versa. Maybe that Cajun thing.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
Having strong opinions and being filled with hate and rage are two rather different things.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
hahaha! Those sketches again. Deucie had some comments on that jive.

To you lovers who like taking shots: I'm real, I'm a woman, I still climb, I've done El Cap more than once among other walls, and I really do hate these clowns and don't mind holding a consistent position. The resulting attacks mean nothing to me because I know there are other climbers who agree and were there that summer watching the spectacle. And Steve doesn't need me as a proxy.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
I'm just waiting to madbolter1 (one the FA goombees) to show up and edify us with one of his multi-page manifestos complete with some of his PowerPoint cartoons and lack of self-deprecating humor.

The fellow does not have an economy of language, that is for certain. PTPP too appears to be drinking from that well as of late.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
I would say more like shining that pole. LOL!

Yeah, we're waiting for their return now that there's been a flood of lovers. Oh woe is us, for the Blather shall be visited upon us shortly.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Let's not forget the notorious Wings of Plywood, reported here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/518116/Wings-of-Plywood-less-infamous-but

It suggests that the original WoS team isn't entirely without a sense of humour, and might cause a few dimples in cheeks - but hopefully not in rock.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
"The Blather".....Lol!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 9, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
Yes, none, No, and no.

And yes.

.02.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
Chief, you kind of beat me to it, but I was going to ask a serious question:

Mimi, have you ever met Mark or Richard in person?

I haven't.

Not loving or hating, just curious.
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
The Goon! Where in the hell do you get this idea? From something Pete posted?! You are in a league of your own when it comes to being delusional. You obviously can't read for comprehension at all because this whole shitstorm swirls around style, ethics and respect for tradition. And above all, forthright and honest reports about what went into the climb.

I know it appeals to your simple mind that this is some twisted yinyang saga. You need to try rubbing together a different group of brain cells. Try retiring the ones that connected Henry Barber and Jimmy Dunn to your stupid argument in support of the wannabes.

No, Bubba, I haven't had the dishonor of meeting either one.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Damn. Thats some bitterness.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
I, for one, find it inspiring to know that each and every one of you has learned to use a computer.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
If Ammon can't rush up this thing, that says a lot

Peace

Karl
Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber
love, trust, and T*Rs nuts!
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
I don't get why any one would back MIMI up?!?! I don't care how cool she is in person, I've heard her spew at the bridge before (not exactly my cup of tea) and it sure didn't seem any cooler there than on here. Mimi, I'm going to guess your over 40, possibly over 50. Your acting like a f*#king 10 year old boy. GROW THE F*#K UP!!!! Go use your passion and energy somewhere else. Do you realize how f*#king retarded you sound to every single person on here who does not choose to defend you off-line personality. Seriously, and I know this will just go in one ear and out the other like the other 200 posts telling you how f*#king absurd you sound. All you other f*#king loosers kissing her ass saying how cool she is in person need to shut the f*#k up and get with the program here. The non-stop vile slander of two people shes NEVER EVEN MET IN PERSON online is just f*#king insanity. So MIMI F*#K YOU AND ALL YOUR F*#KING SUPPORTERS. GO F*#K YOURSELF!

The only reason I say this is, I read this thread in hopes of hearing something cool and climbing related about WOS such as hearing about Ammon up there whipping like crazy, etc. But MIMI your posts DO NOTHING but detract from this, get off your washed up never has been ass and go meet those guys face to face and thell them how you REAL feel. Bitch.

PTCc
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
So Mimi, I gather that your beef involves "forthright and honest reports about what went into the climb."

From what I have read, the FA team admits to taking an excess of gear and 39 days as well as chipping hook placements and placing bolts and rivits.

What's missing that makes the reports less than forthright and honest?

Have the reports changed over time?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 9, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
"... and I really do hate these clowns [Mark and Richard] ..."

OK, so you really are a Hater, Mimi?
Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Edited: PTCC, since you are so eager to hear about Ammon taking big whippers (that's really nice of you), why not have the sense to start your own thread on it? This thread was never intended to be about Ammon and Kait. Their efforts deserve its own thread, not here. So what if I never met them? You're giving my friends grief over the same point. Take a chill pill, punk.

Bubba, yes, the reports have changed over time. Since they re-emerged on climbing forums to reinvent themselves, they first held the position that every time the drill touched rock it was filled with metal, then a ladder of bathooks came to light, then a ladder of batheads came to light, and then the issue of 145 narrow Leeper Logan hooks and how those were made to work came up.

Skid (MSmith) posted the following provocative statement: "There are lots of enhancements on wos but you won't see them." Bwana has said 10% were enhanced with a drill before being used.

I don't know about you, but I don't think 10% qualifies as "lots," but we've been dancing around this issue the whole time. What flows forth from this figure is that 130 times (90%), Bwana or Skid reached up with that golden hook, and scratched around and made it work without resorting to a hammer and drill or chisel. Whether you accept this or not is entirely up to you, but that's the crux of the argument at this time.

Pete, don't think much of them and don't think much of you. Where's the news in that?
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Jul 9, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
kevin-

this is aid climbing material:


no human has fingers thin enough for the vast majority of it. A clean line for 250' (there are 7 on this wall, this one was done to 160'). Next door was a super steep line on a tower that was FA'd by a forum member (with help on lower stuff by me) that again is too thin for fingers and rises 110' on its third pitch to the summit.

that is aid.

It is sad when I see photos of aliens next to crappy head placements- that is just laziness (especially Hudon's photos of stellite hard granite). A pin or head is never the first choice but aid climbers with some talent still have to reach for iron once in a while.

I am more pissed at holes and the drill. With age I reach less and less for the drill and avoid electric drills like the plague. I think the issue has always been the improvements made on WOS. Maybe Ammon's ascent will clear up the myths. The thing to remember is WOS is just a variation and not a bottom to top line and follows a slab- something most who haul loads dread.
Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber
camped on P3 of WOS
Jul 9, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
YOUR SERIOUSLY going to tell ME TO TAKE A CHILL PILL?!?!?!?! BITCH. GO CLIMB OR CHOP OR VISUALLY INSPECT UP CLOSE WOS,,, find out for YOURSELF whats REALLLY going on up there,,, and QUIT F*#KING WHINING. LOVE THE FACT you LOVE to call Richard and Mark names("Bwana and Skid" on that note with choices like that you do sound like a 50 year old woman wash up has been, and thats for sure!), BUT YOU can not handle being called out ON ANY LEVEL, and then MUST RESPOND AND BE RIGHT about it ALL!!! YOUR F*#KED, and I don't give a sh#t, end of f*#king story!

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT!

PASS THE F*#KING CHONGO,,, CHONGO
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
Who inspected the route and chopped the first 2 pitches prior to the meeting with the Park Service?

Prod.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 9, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Mimi, thanks for the replies.

First I have heard about the supposed "bat hook ladders" and "bat head ladders" - guess they are not on the first six pitches since those have reportedly been done more than once. (But then I don't have time to go read a couple thousand posts, hence the questions)

Are these ladders confirmed by a reliable source or just a rumor? Photos?

Seems pretty short sighted for the FA party to not mention them - it's not like a repeat party wouldn't find them, thus busting the FA team.

If it's a rumor, what happens if Ammon and Kait don't find these ladders?

What if it really is just a bunch of enhanced hook placements connected by the occasional bolt or rivit?

On the subject of hook enhancements, assuming the truth is being told, it doesn't matter if 10% or 90% were chipped to me except that one seems exponentially lamer than the other. Obviously, I am in the "chipping is weak sauce" department and it doesn't matter to me who did the chipping, Bridwell, Jardine or the WOS team. And, if the enhancements are as light as it sounds, you would never know the true number anyway.

(Not to be dissing the Bird as his resume speaks for itself but I do think there were some bad decisions made, esp. on the Sea, which I have done)
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jul 9, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
Mimi, compared to you, LEB's posts are starting to rational. You're an embarassment to women. Please shut up now. That's all.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 9, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
I love lamp.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 9, 2011 - 09:42pm PT

Mimi

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Bubba: Are these ladders confirmed by a reliable source or just a rumor? They were unconvenient details brought to light by subsequent parties. I believe they're around P4-6. Right around here, our heroes dropped some of their bolting gear. For some strange reason, they were trying like hell to not drill bathook holes, even though the difference between a bathead and a bathook is laughable. Higher up, when forced off their original line, after 30 days on the wall, they were much reduced and finally resorted to outright bathooking to get over to the Aquarian.

What if it really is just a bunch of enhanced hook placements connected by the occasional bolt or rivit? That's what most of us haters think it is. Ammon's report, despite being 30 years later, will be illuminating.

Your comments about enhancing being bad practice regardless of who did it is spot on. No one is denying that. I've talked to Jim about it more than once to gain a better understanding. And you're also spot on about if the enhancements are as light as it sounds, you would never know the true number anyway. That's right and that's what Bwana and Skid lean on like an old crutch.

canyoncat: You're another anonymous twit. Since you and PTCC are so perturbed, simply skip over my posts. The right to speak my mind with power is the height of feminism, little girlie. Or whoever you are. I hope you garnered your fair measure of monkey spunk for standing up to the mean old lady so forcefully. LOL!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 9, 2011 - 10:24pm PT

fascinating...
fosburg

climber
Jul 9, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
There's something very interesting about the fact of this route WOS and the way it polarizes opinion to such a high degree. In some way this one route serves to underscore the legitimacy of wildly divergent but obviously true beliefs.
First of all the true observation that aid climbing, let alone nailing, is as Todd Skinner famously noted, "not climbing". Etriers, mechanical hoisting, give me a break. So we have a debate about different styles of not actually climbing, hmm...
Then the Grossman/Mimi self-loathing nailing ethic that obviously nailing and enhancement alter the rock and should be minimized and honestly reported. And obviously there's no cracks on that gigantic slab so why even choose such an inauspicious line?
But obviously if nailing and drilling are to be avoided because of the damage to the rock, the best way for someone to personally minimize that effect would be to not do it. Don't nail, don't do first ascents that require nailing and drilling. That gigantic slab obviously is going to require drilling and if you're lucky maybe a few nailed placements. Good job Steve, Mimi and everyone else for choosing to not do a first ascent there. Good job choosing better lines for your FAs.
But these guys chose to do a route there. Seems like an obvious bad choice (think of all the killer new routes that were waiting to be done in the Valley at that time. How about Freerider, no drilling or nailing required, no undignified standing in aiders "climbing", 12c, I'm sure... Lot's of others come to mind).
But they put their heads down and did the best job they could with their chosen (jacked) line and it certainly seems they have been more forthcoming and detailed in their description of what they did up there than maybe any climbers in history, indeed morally compelled to do so by their stated beliefs. That's obviously fairly noble. Seems like a major stretch to call those guys liars.
The WOS FA team are obviously being held to an unfair double standard by a vocal minority when we take into account the fact that aid climbing but most specifically nailing is obviously pretty debauched by definition because of the alteration of the rock and is so no matter who does it. It seems to obviously come down to a stylistic question of "degree" which is of course arbitrary and impossible to agree upon.
The acrimonious and ad hominem attacks are certainly a symptom of very weak and insecure reasoning and should be regarded as very dubious.

#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 9, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
Latest report - makes not a lick of sense to me but here goes...

Ammon finishing pitch 6. Sleeping at top of pitch five tonight. (Ok - I got that one)

Ammon passed Hunter & Slater at pitch 5.

Pete, Ammon has added NOTHING! (Hey, I got that one too!)

Pete - the answer to your #4? = lots of original heads rusted at base and when moved a couple of times they break apart. Or as Kait enhances it with "rusted heads have been crumbling in his bloody bare fingertips." (that's a I kinda get - especially the visual image)

Pete - #5? answer = ripped a Yates Screamer on a fall - A & K say it's PROUD! (No clue!)

Pete - later in ur message = mostly natural hooking with some enhanced. And some of the enhanced ones, Ammon able to hook around using natural edges. (No clue!)

P.S. The 3 enhancements used thus far by Ammon & Kait: undies, Kait's FUD, and most definitely the Fiveten rubber! (Hey, I got that one - but most of you won't get the first enhancement - hahahahaha)

Will be up taking pics tomorrow, so no report 'til late.

And they are counting food and water and are good to go if they can stay on the 9 more day plan- 1 a day until they finish WoS and swing onto the final route up.

Have a good one! And don't forget to Live-Love and most definitively - Laugh

Ciao
Fogarty

climber
BITD
Jul 9, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
AKA, Balls of Helium!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 10, 2011 - 01:11am PT
Thanks for the updates #1Mama!

Go Ammon and Kait!!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 10, 2011 - 01:15am PT
C'mon, we want more!
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
Mimi: "They were unconvenient details brought to light by subsequent parties. I believe they're around P4-6."

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that until yesterday when Ammon made it, only Slater had claimed to have climbed the first six pitches. Neither made mention of any bat hook or bat head ladders.

Has anybody else (with a name and not some mystery man) really climbed those pitches?
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 10, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Wait, I thought mimi was one of the shitters? At least that's what I read on the internet!
Meow Now

Trad climber
Emerald City
Jul 10, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
Oh Skipt, you are such a man. Mmmmm...

I don't go for those big, bulging...I mean, I prefer real men like you.

You are the type of man that likes to be led by the nose in the real world, but you cetainly know how to show your prowess hiding behind the skirt of your computer.

You are such a turn-on.

I usually only look for you on this forum because you have so many important issues to discuss on The Super Topo a Climbers Forum.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 10, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
Ropeshitting is a medical condition and hence protected by HIPAA laws.
Don't even think of going there.
Mimi

climber
Jul 10, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
Coz, do you think I was just hanging out in the C4 lot chasing down a little dick back in those days? Yes, I know one of the shitters had me tooled but he wasn't really one of the shitters and I still love him even though he tried to lay it down on that occasion but could not. And is ground up all you need, Coz? I know damned well you are simply missing the whole story to be a wannabe booster on this one. You were around back then weren't you? People either don't remember, weren't born, or never gave a damn about style and respect in the first place. Have you taken the time to go back far enough to read what Steve's said on the subject? You and The Chief, now there's a match made in heaven.

Bubba, the bat hooks showed up on the escape to the Aquarian higher up. The bat heads showed up down low and were complained about by the Thaw party.

Here are the posts from Thaw's partner Calder (11/09):
"wow, who knew that a 13 pitch variation could warrant so much attention! I've read just a few of the threads and can clearly tell that I don't have the tenacity to sift through all of this information. Are there cliff notes available for the WOS web saga? For what its worth, this is what I know about the route. In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. I don't remember a whole lot about it other than we started at 5:30 am and were on top of the fifth pitch by early afternoon...there were a few whippers to be had, the z-macks and rusty bat heads were frustrating. If I remember correctly, there was some sporty/tricky hooking sections, but nothing that I would consider crazy.

We found no A5 (rip whole pitch and die type stuff) on the pitches we climbed. I would say the climbing had sections of solid A3 (many body weight placements with a 50' fall potential). Like I said, there were some sporty sections of hooking, six in a row doesn't seem out of line. Tim led the second pitch and fell 30-40' and pulled a rivet or two on his way down, but didn't get hurt. The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill, there were lots of z-macs and some god awful rusted out bat heads.
Calder
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 10, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
You are mad at them because God told them that it was A5 and sprayed the route for the almighty?


Sounds like a good summation from an outsider's view of what you're trying to say, Mimi...
Mimi

climber
Jul 10, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
mojede, how do you get from my posts to yours? Are you an insider?
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 10, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill

...Calder
Mimi

climber
Jul 10, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Coz, I honestly don't agree with about 90% of what you wrote. Based on what I recall about you, you hung out with Kurt and JB who had really strong convictions about climbing. You come across now sounding like you don't give a crap, yet you helped fuel a huge controversy around Growing Up.

Steve is on the couch and he'd like to tell you "I never chipped, chiseled, enhanced, trenched or chalked anything that I climbed on BITD and you should know that. A little cheating doesn't excuse a lot of cheating if you're not going to be honest about what you're doing."

My allegations are based on the voluminous information out there that others and the FA have provided. Hopefully, all this stuff will be put to bed very soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
MisterE

Social climber
CA
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:33am PT
I frickin' love this thread - climbing in all of it's crazy idiosyncrasies lives large:

Right here.

Thanks to all for being your weird, wacky, convoluted-yet-iconoclastic selves!

Celebrate!
Mimi

climber
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:35am PT
LOL! Mr. E.

Thanks for posting the photos, Tarz!
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:44am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Thanks, Tarz!

I'm pretty sure I could see an enhancement in one of those photos.

And there's a dimple on the dog's face.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT
I'm smiling. Awesome photos. What a cool location.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:47am PT
Actual climbing content us not permitted on this thread, Tarz. Sorry to have to tell you this.
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:48am PT
Thus my smiling pooch to take your mind off of it!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:55am PT
That dog has definitely been enhanced.
MisterE

Social climber
CA
Jul 11, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Great shots! Reminds me how much hauling on slabs sucks ass...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 11, 2011 - 03:37am PT
If you consider the amount of granite that's been chiseled, drilled, gardened, pin-scared, or otherwise trundled off of virtually every El Cap route ever done, is WOS even in the top 60% of rock damage out there? Could anyone else have climbed the route with less damage? Could any of the damage be seen from any other route or the ground if they didn't climb it?

I don't get where anybody has cause to grouse about the route in retrospect. Why not just admit you had a limited or wrong idea and let it go? After all, few climbers still revile Harding and his WEML climb or bathook ladders on many routes. We had many pages of debate about the South Face of Half Dome and none of the purists took issue with Hardings EXTREME enhancement of hook moves over there. Is it OK to drill bat hook ladders up Half Dome but not El Cap? (not that WOS did that?)

WHy hold on to a silly negativity when there is so little logical inconsistency to the whole complaint? All the enhancement required to climb WOS doesn't add up to 1/1000th of the amount of stuff displaced getting the FA of one pitch of Mr. Natural on the apron

Peace

Karl
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jul 11, 2011 - 03:48am PT
Corrected rotation of one of Tarz' cool photos.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 11, 2011 - 04:10am PT
Congratulations! It's the first time you met with a troll.

If you argue with a troll, he wins. DONT argue with a troll. He will never stop, even if everyone is with you, and you are 100% sure that you are right.

I tell you, trolls aren't rare on the internet, since of anonymousness or wtf however they say it.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jul 11, 2011 - 07:15am PT
Coz, I'm a bit surprised at your comments up there, though I do believe that feeling mellow about current climbing controversies shows that we're growing up a bit (and also the fact that the old dads like us had their day and their say--recall our mantra back then: "you're only as good as what you did the day before").

First of all, having been close to both the free and aid camp 4 campers back in the 80's, I recall much more heated discussions on free standards than this current risible sideshow, with you generally in the center of it all (but of course with a passionate opinion based on perceptions of utilitarian good).

Second, I'm surprised that you had no idea of Grossman's standards back in the day. He was well known for being the absolute purist (both on free and aid, though in aid he was pushing the highest standards), and I believe he walked the talk, and in doing so, enabled many others to strive harder to respect the stones on which we clamber. And this is why he is so passionate today about this issue.

To me, the issue became more moot in the mid-late 90's when the momentum toward purism on the big stone aid routes reversed direction, when many new routes (often variations in reality) were established and reported as significant, even though they required well over 100 bolts/drilled holes to establish (i.e a very high drilled holes per pitch ratio).

Personally, as I have stated before, the route in question represents the ultimate in "artificial difficulty" due to it's z-macs and the prerogative of the FA's willingness to (apparently occasionally) enhance--these are things that make the second ascent harder, of course (Z-macs get weaker with time, and SA's aren't supposed to enhance when they get gripped or can't find an obvious placement). But these are things only someone who has actually spent a lot of time aid climbing would really understand, the fear of being only 15' above a ankle breaker ledge with a load of gear on your shoulders and dependent on the whims of a dicey piece of metal is a unique experience in the many variants of rock climbing.

Once again, I'm impressed with Ammon, certainly one of the greatest Yosemite big wallers of all time, for sacking up and going for the SA, especially under all this public eye.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 11, 2011 - 08:26am PT
Interesting....when this was first posted in 2005 a number of prominent wall climbers criticized the style in which the route was established. In 2011 Mimi does the same thing and all hell breaks loose- what gives?
426

climber
☬
Jul 11, 2011 - 08:29am PT
What gives? The ever present VCs hiding in the manzanita...or in plain sight


cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos ??
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 11, 2011 - 08:55am PT
Thanks Clint! Looked ok last night after a glass of wine!
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 11, 2011 - 10:58am PT
Donini, Mimi came clean as one of the cable layers in the other thread. She evidentally was one of those who "laid down" the law to WOS FA's. I believe it was in the shape of the Mark of Zorro.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
It's weird that people who have devoted so much of their life to climbing don't seem to get it.

The rock is an inanimate object. I love El Cap, Half Dome, etc. but we don't protect "the rock" to save the rock, we protect it for our fellow ciimbers. The rock doesn't care if it has 'too many' holes, or gets chipped. It's going to be there for millios of years regardless. It's really about conserving the challenge that nature presented us for our fellow climbers. It's about respect for other people.

Pretty much nobody is "pure". Did Grossman back off his climbs if they required a bolt or a pin? Someone could have come along in the future and possibly free climbed that section. The game/challenge is to climb as pure as possible. Unless you pick a line that shows no signs of passage at all you are not fully pure. And unless you back down off a route that requires any modification of the rock from pounding pins, heads, or bolts, you are NOT pure.

Ethics and style collide in the FA. When a party does an FA they use up a small amount of the limited number of lines available, so they should do it in reasonable style (of course that's where there is plenty of room for debate, see Growing Up). For WoS there wasn't and hasn't been a whole lot of of people lined up to do that climb. Perhaps no one who have attempted that slab but them, so did they really take away the opportunity for some one else to do it in a better style? And from all reports, and we'll hopefully have even more info from Ammon and Kait it sounds like they did it in fine/bold style. How much crap they took, how much time they took, the fact that they wrote a book, the way the defend their actions, their prior experience, is really their choice, it doesn't effect anyone's climbing experince but their own.

So of course a lot of the detraction is from territorial claims. Emotionally driven. Dogs pissing on trees. The fact that someone could defend someone taking a crap on someone's ropes and still to this day say it was the right thing to do and the one who accepted responsibility for that heinous act betrayed the cause just goes to show how little respect some are willing to give and hence how little they should receive.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
What the Fet wrote. Couldn't have said it better.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 11, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
^^^ That's just plain wrong. ^^^


But it is kind of the mark of Zorro, isn't it?
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 11, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
Mimi,

Now I'm really confused.

In the posts you copied above, Calder mentions "rusty bat heads were frustrating" and "some god awful rusted bat heads.

How did you turn that into this:

Bubba, yes, the reports have changed over time. Since they re-emerged on climbing forums to reinvent themselves, they first held the position that every time the drill touched rock it was filled with metal, then a ladder of bathooks came to light, then a ladder of batheads came to light, and then the issue of 145 narrow Leeper Logan hooks and how those were made to work came up.

I mean, really.

How did "some god awful rusted bat heads" turn into "a ladder of batheads?"

Interestingly, a few posts down the page from the Calder post is this, written by madbolter1:

"The batheads were a lame experiment, which we readily admit and quickly abandoned, and there are only a few of them."

So Calder says "some" and MB1 says "a few" and you say a "ladder."

My definition of "some" or "a few" is just that - some, or a few. To me a ladder conjures up images of "a lot" - as in something that you couldn't miss and would have been mentioned rather than dismissed as "some."

Last, you say that a ladder of bathooks came to light. On the original Reid topo, which outdates any of these lame threads, there is clearly a ladder of bathooks connecting to the Aquarian - and they are labeled as "bathooks", nothing else.

Right here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&msg=1018145#msg1018145

Does your assertion above mean that there is a second ladder that was left off the topo?
Caz

Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA.
Jul 11, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
More drama please. I'm not done with work yet...
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 11, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
Way better than Erica Cain, anyway.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 11, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Anyone who has desecrated the Big Stone with any sort of hammered placement should be shot and killed immediately
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 11, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
Uh oh.
Now we're ALL gonna Die!!!6!!
fosburg

climber
Jul 11, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
I think you are absolutely right and to the point Perry, there is no pure aid climbing standard and that fact is at the basis of all this "disagreement". The detractors of WOS are mostly nailers themselves and thus guilty of rock alteration. Who makes the rules?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 11, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
"The name of big-walling--invent your own rules/ethics and legends and see how many of the m-asses will kiss your azz and follow them."--mojede
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Jul 11, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
fet wrote:

"Pretty much nobody is "pure". Did Grossman back off his climbs if they required a bolt or a pin?"

you are unfamiliar with steve's efforts.
WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
I believe what Steve and Mimi's arguments are really based on is if most of the hook moves were "doctored" with a drill bit or scraped then the so called line was "forced" since there are also a high number of aid holes (bolts & rivets) for the amount of pitches.

This would be the "root" of their argument, (The line was "Forced").

They also most likely believe that the FA party was not truthful in revealing how much was doctored.

Just my wild guess so don't be going ape sh'it on me ......
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 11, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
"Pretty much nobody is "pure". Did Grossman back off his climbs if they required a bolt or a pin?"

you are unfamiliar with steve's efforts.

great for Steve but I see no reason for everyone to climb like Steve nor should first ascents be limited to the fewest elite who can do the route in the very highest style.

In that case, almost all El cap routes would have run-out 5.13 before you even got to the aid

Peace

Karl
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 11, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
Hey all!

Ammon and Kait are 30 feet shy of being done with pitch 8.

That's the scoop for tonight!

I think??? they said Pitch 9 looks okay.

Mama Annie
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 11, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
Man, I wish you were my mom! The first my mom knew about my climbing was
the bill she got for the chopper rescue.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:17am PT
Just my wild guess so don't be going ape sh'it on me ......

Hey Werner!
Peace


Edit: Thanks "Mamma" fer the reports! Hope you get thru this without too much stress! Enjoy the ascent.
Peace
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:19am PT
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:22am PT
And the Murphy-nator is not enhanced!!!

All Barber doggies look like this - they smile! Kinda' weird but not.
Everyone wants to come back as a Barber pup. It's a great life!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:42am PT
You're welcome!

Keeps me closer to my two knuckleheads!
And I love watching my kids climb - always have!
It's quite fun!

Plus, you al make me LOL with your rants and raves.
Keep up the good work!

P.S. Pete - where'd you go to? This thread is missing your expertise!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:44am PT
And Reilly, I'm safe on the heli bill - Kait's over 21. Woot Woot!

Oh, no! She is on my insurance!!!!!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:56am PT
So we're NOT gonna die? Well, good.
Seemed touch & go there for a bit.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:00am PT
Thank you, Jesus! I was getting worried too!

Night!

P.S. Keep on threading!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:02am PT
Sorry to say, Jim - no blue silk pumps for me!
Maybe Fiveten will customize a pair for me?!?

Keep it up!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:08am PT
If you don't mind us asking, does Ammon take a teddy on the wall with him? Or maybe Kait? It seems to be common amongst the hardmen - two here recently soloed (respectively) Zenyatta Mondatta and Shortest Straw, both very hard routes on El Capitan. Both accompanied by teddies. Plus PTPP has a 'crab' teddy.
Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:31am PT
Yeah Ammon's got a teddy.. most dangerous snake in the valley...

Can of King Cobra...

Right on Ammon, hope you come down with some "enlightening" news...

Kurt Burt
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 10:43am PT
Ammon's Teddy = The Jolly Roger!
But I'll have to delve farther into this!

King Cobra is gone - the climb should speed up now!!!!! Or we can only hope. lol

Enjoy your day!
And everyone should be back on The Captain! A week of absolutely incredible cool weather!!!
As the old adage says...Go Climb a Rock! Instead of the walls raining water (John Muir) they should be raining climbers. Well...not falling down that is - falling up. Is that even possible?
Woot Woot!

Ciao,
Mom of Kait & Ammon's Mom two
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 12, 2011 - 11:03am PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 12, 2011 - 11:36am PT
Hey there, Annie - thanks for your reports. I was smiling into my coffee this morning. Did you, ahem, have a couple of beers when you were writing those first ones last night? They were actually becoming very Wing-of-Steelish. I think you should have a couple more beers before posting tonight!

Werner writes,

"I believe what Steve and Mimi's arguments are really based on is if most of the hook moves were "doctored" with a drill bit or scraped then the so called line was "forced" since there are also a high number of aid holes (bolts & rivets) for the amount of pitches.

This would be the "root" of their argument, (The line was "Forced").

They also most likely believe that the FA party was not truthful in revealing how much was doctored."

The argument expressed above was valid prior to 2006, and was generally believed. Since then, Mark and Richard came onto the forum, and told us what they did, and how they did it. These numbers and facts have best been told in Mark's and Richard's posts here and here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&tn=0&mr=0

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/516588/Wings-of-Steel-XXVII-the-Downward-Spiral

The counts are as follows:

 113 drilled placements in the slab by ascending the Bogus Start [alternate start from the left to the first two pitches after the first pitch was chopped]

 20 drilled placements in the original start, prior to joining the alternate start partway up the second pitch

 Total of 133 drilled placements on the slab, of which 78 are rivets

 They then say a total of 145 holes were drilled to do the route, which includes the 12 bat-heads required to join Aquarian Wall at the end. The actual number may be 13

 They recount the 20 drilled holes on the original start, which they redrilled after the original start was chopped, for a grand total of 165 holes, of which 41 of these were for anchor bolts. [I don't believe they should recount the 20, and that the actual hole count should be 145]

 They made 151 hook moves to ascent the route, all of which except five were on Leeper narrow hooks

Mark and Richard have maintained that they micro-enhanced about ten percent of the hook placements, for a total of about 15 enhancements over the length of the route. They also said that the enhancements they made are so small as to be virtually invisible. All subsequent observations have confirmed this.

While there are a fair number of bolts and rivets on the route, the number of drilled placements may not be excessive when compared to some other routes on a "hole per foot climbed" measurement. The runouts on Wings of Steel are long, sporty and dangerous, and will result in long and serious falls even for highly skilled climbers like Ammon, who has taken quite a few whippers. One of the first ascensionists dislocated his ankle in a fall, Ammon has dislocated [and re-located!] his shoulder in a fall. This should come as little surprise since the climb has been unable to be repeated in its entirety since its first ascent.

If I understand correctly, Ammon reports again seeing no enhancements, so truly the enhancements made were so small as to be invisible, especially with the help of a quarter-century of erosion.

Because of the lack of natural protection, you can argue that line is contrived, and you can argue that it is forced.

The root of Steve and Mimi's argument has always been that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are liars - that they climbed Wings of Steel in a certain way, but then lied about it afterwards to make themselves look better.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support the assertion that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen lied about anything.

All evidence suggests that Richard and Mark have told the truth from the beginning.

To continue suggesting that Richard Jensen and Mark Smith are liars, and that they misrepresented anything in their ascent of Wings of Steel, would be both libellous and a defamation of character.

Peter Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Turf Wars and Turmoil at Walla Walla College

Walla Walla College is
today a deeply wounded
and divided camp. The
Academic Standards Committee has
been temporarily stripped of its authority
to hear appeals of student grades.
The history department is still bitter
from having its decision to terminate
Richard Jensen overturned by the
Board ofTrustees last year, following a
storm of criticism. The board of trustees
lays down specific instructions which
the departments openly defy, and
which the president is unable to enforce.
Ugly written accusations have
been made by the history department,
and refuted. Lawsuits have been
threatened, and administration is walking
on eggshells. The history department,
through the humanities program,
built up the tension by again recommending
that Jensen be terminated
after this school year. Unless the board
of trustees again overturns the
department's decision at a March 4
meeting,Jensen will not be back next
year. All sides tensely await the unfolding
of the end game.
At the epicenter of this maelstrom is
Richard Jensen, an analytic philosopher
who expects to finish his doctorate in
philosophy from UC Santa Barbara early
this spring with a dissertation entitled,
"Authority and a Solution to the Problem
of a Divine Command Theory: An
Answer to Subjectivism in Ethics."
According to Jensen the goal of his
dissertation is "to establish a metaphysical
objectivism in ethics based
upon modifications and synthesis of
the various divine command theories
that have sprung up in the last thirty
years." He is halfway through the third
of three one-year contracts at Walla
Walla college on a tenure track. The
next step in that track would be a
three-year contract, followed by candidacy
for tenure. Barring another surprise,
the three-year contract leading to
tenure will be denied.
WWC is the only SDA college with a
full-time philosopher and has had a
philosopher in residence going back at
least to the 1980's, according to Presi-
dent Nelson. When Jensen was recruited
by Roland Blaich, recently retired
chairman of the history department,
it was with the express
understanding that WWC had committed
itself to raising philosophy to full
department status. Without such a
commitment, says Jensen, he would not
have agreed to come. Jensen was initially
assigned to Roland Blaich's history
department.
By all accounts, Richard Jensen is a
brilliant and enthusiastic lecturer with
high academic standards, is theologically
conservative, has impeccable student
evaluations and student loyalty,
and loves teaching at Walla Walla. Even
his detractors do not seem to question
his abilities as a teacher and lecturer in
philosophy. But beyond that, to say that
the differences in opinion regarding his
influence are astonishing is to understate
the case.
Depending on whose version you
hear, opinions about Richard Jensen
range from calling him an irreplaceable
intellectual and spiritual asset whose
loss would be tragic, to a devastatingly
divisive David Koresh-Iike cult leader at
war with the church who needs to be
terminated as soon as possib. Did he
subtly orchestrate the student protests
that led to his forced rehiring last
spring, as some of his critics suspect, or
was it a spontaneous outpouring of
appreciation and loyalty from his students?

The Battle Over Plagiarism
Jensen traces his fall from grace with
administration to his well-advertised,
uncompromising, aggressive policy
against plagiarism. He spends at least a
whole lecture on the evils of plagiarism
alone. Plagiarism, even in a measly tenpoint
homework assignment, is sufficient
to fail a student, and has. Unlike
many teachers, he will actively search
the Internet or library for the source of
text which he suspects has been plagiarized.
In his two and half years at the
school, he estimates that he has failed
6-7 students for plagiarism. Plagiarism,
he says,was a bigger problem at WWC

when he arrived than at any other college
where he had taught previously.
From the beginning, it had been his
policy to get the plagiarizing student to
sign a document summarizing the
points of mutual agreement sufficient
to establish plagiarism beyond a reasonable
doubt. Despite this seemingly
airtight documentation establishing
plagiarism in every case,his battle with
administration began in May of 1999,
when a student decided to appeal the
failing grade with the Academic Standards
Committee (ASC)chaired by Mel
Lang.
The student's initial appeal was
turned down. Then the stakes were
raised as a voting member of the ASC
helped the student draft a second petition
in which the student retracted the
confession of guilt on the basis of intimidation,
and the student's father, a
big school donor, threatened a lawsuit
unless Jensen's decision was overturned.
Jensen says he was subsequently
called in by administration and
berated for having such a strict plagiarism
policy and informed of the possible
lawsuit that might ensue as a result.
When Jensen refused to back
down, ASC upheld the student's second
petition on the basis of intimidation
and expunged the course and grade
from the student's transcript.
WG. Nelson, college president, John
Brunt, vice president for Academic Affairs,
Mel Lang, ASCchairman, and Terry
Gottschall, ASC board member at the
time, all declined to discuss ASC issues
with AT. However, Gottschall's 7/21/99
letter of resignation from ASCover the
handling of this case corroborates virtually
all of Jensen's account (SeeAT's
website, atoday.com).
Jensen appealed ASC'sdecision and
filed a formal grievance with the grievance
committee against Dr. Brunt, Dr.
Lang, and the ASC,against the advice of
Dr. Brunt. The grievance committee
found unanimously that Jensen's right
to due process had been violated, and it
stripped the ASC of their power to hear
any further grade appeals until their
Handbook could be rewritten with the
proper protections for due process.
The grievance committee's report of
March 3,2000, admits the student was
allowed to submit two "second petitions,"
but Jensen was allowed to see
and respond to only one of them,
whereas ASC'svote to uphold the
student's petition was based on the
content of both petitions. Additionally,
the questions themselves commingled
three separate issues: the extent of plagiarism,
the reasonableness of Jensen's
standards, and Jensen's alleged mistreatment
of the student.
The BattLe Over AnaLyticaL
Philosophy
While Jensen was battling administration
over plagiarism, tension was
mounting along another front. From
AT'sfirst contact with Jensen, he had
emphasized that he was not just a philosopher,
but an analytical philosopher,
as opposed to the Continental variety,
which Jensen had little patience for, and
considers largely discredited.
Jensen explains that analytical philosophy
is a mainstream approach to
philosophy which holds that propositional
truth claims can be evaluated for
correctness using rules based upon
indubitable axioms. A central axiom is
that truth is never contradictory. He
emphasized that analytical philosophy
was not a specialty, or a particular set of
doctrines, but a logical approach to
philosophy that could be applied to any
given aspect of philosophy, including
the history of philosophy even Continental
philosophy itself. Although it has
historically been rough on conservative
Christianity, Jensen asserts that this
reputation is undeserved. If used properly,
hard-nosed analytical philosophy
can consistently save the faith of intelligent,
informed, and thoughtful Christians
who would otherwise be intimidated
into believing that intellectual
integrity demanded that they give up
their faith.
By contrast, he says,"Continental"
philosophy is a deconstructionist approach
which has been largely discredited
by the philosophical community
and is today practiced by only a small
minority of philosophers centered
mainly in France and Germany (thus
Continental). Exemplified by existentialism
and Kierkegaard, truth is seen as
something that might well at times be
contradictory.
Thus, in general, a fundamental absolutism
arises out of analytical philosophy,
while a fundamental relativism
arises out of Continental philosophy.
While on the surface both approaches
may seem equally plausible and attractive,
says Jensen, he found the underlying
relativism of continental philosophy
to be ultimately contrary and corrosive
to the absolutist premise of conservative
Christianity and Seventh-day Adventism
and more suitable to Eastern
religions.
What would emerge as a bone of
contention, was whether analytical philosophy
constituted a narrow
"specialty"or doctrinal focus within philosophy,
analogous to Marxism, as Robert
Henderson, WWC history professor,
still assumed during AT's phone conversation
with him on January 29, or
whether it is an approach to philosophy
that is equally applicable to any subject
in the field, including Continental philosophy,
as Jensen maintains.
Jensen referred ATto Brian Leiter's
"the Philosophers Gourmet Report" on
the internet for corroboration. Brian
Leiter is the Charles I. Francis Professor
in the School of Law,a professor in the
department of philosophy, and director
of the Law & Philosophy Program at the
University ofTexas at Austin, where he
has taught legal philosophy, ethics, Continental
philosophy, and evidence since
1995. In his "A Note on 'Analytical' and
'Continental' Philosophy", Leiter corroborates
Jensen's contention that analytical
philosophy is overwhelmingly
dominant in America and the world,
that analytical philosophy is an approach
encompassing all subjects
within philosophy including the study
of Continental philosophy, and that
even those wishing to pursue a scholarly
career in philosophy "cannot do
better than to pursue training in analytic
philosophy-even if one plans to
work, in the end, on (Continentals like)
Hegel or Marx or Nietzsche."
The FinaL MeLtdown
The events leading to Jensen's termination
and dramatic forced rehiring began
innocently enough with the history
department's recommendation to Brunt
for Jensen's rehiring, contingent on the
hiring of a second philosopher of the
Continental variety. When Brunt replied
that no second philosopher would be
hired, the history department chose to
terminate Jensen for "curricular" reasons.
The board of trustees overturned this
decision after student and faculty
protests, mandating that Jensen be
given an opportunity to demonstrate his
breadth (the history department had
argued that he was too narrow) and a
new evaluation in February.The history
department struck back with a letter
stating "extracurricular" reasons why
Jensen needed to be terminated, and
got the humanities program to
endorse their previous decision only
three weeks into the new school year in
open defiance of the Board's mandate.
Nelson has been powerless or unwilling
to do anything about it.
Another Perspective
Dan Lamberton, chairman of the humanities
program, took a more balanced
position than most when speaking with
AT.The core issue,he maintains, is not
"analytic" versus "Continental" philosophy,
Jensen's teaching skills (which he
admits are excellent), nor his stand
against plagiarism (though he saysothers
do not seek it out as aggressively, nor
generate as much student hostility from
those failed for that reason). Jensen, he
says,while excellent in what he does, and
performing a function of philosophy
essential to any department, simply cannot
also teach a wide spectrum of philosophers,
which a department must be
able to do. Hiring a second philosopher
would have been the sufficient solution
originally, and one which the humanities
progam continues to pursue. But since
the traumatic upheaval of last spring, he
admits, there has been so much collateral
emotional damage that the current
climate has become very difficult for
everyone.
Finally, he reminded AT,hiring and
firing of teachers within the first three
years without explanation, is a
department's right.
The story was difficult to balance, as WW administration
was unwilling or unable to speak freely. Jensen was
cooperative when contacted, but did not initiate the story.
The writer attended WW for two years in the mid-sixties.
AT's editorial staff; including the Managing Editor, Diana
Fisher, was not involved for reasons of conflict of interest.

volume 9, issue 1, Adventist Today

http://atoday.com/files/Jan-Feb%202001_1.pdf

click on “magazine”
then “pdf archive”

scroll down to the 2001 issues. Click on Issue 1.

Download, go to page 12.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:35pm PT

On a more positive note, all the best to Kait and Ammon!
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
Well said Pete!

Mimi has also ripped on them for their religious ties which has left an even worse taste in my mouth than some of the climbing ethic bullsh#t. I really get the sense that she truly hates the WOS FA crew and this attitude comes off so strong that I struggle to take anything she has to say about this too serious in terms of climbing.

On another note, I have a topo of Beyer's that says, that one should just enhance placements instead of drill a bolt. Not a quote, but pretty sure that is what he is implying. But Jim Beyer is like a honey badger that doesn't give a shit!

"Climbing is anarchy" Jim Beyer
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
So proud if I'm actually becoming very Wings-of-Steelish!!!
Thanks Pete! And glad you're back on- this thread missed you.

But no beers - it's just me! I'm kinda a water girl! But I do like champagne. And I absolutely die for an El Chola Margarita - but the two I chugged last month for my 50th (thanks Ron for the compliment) almost took me under the table. And the next day - no thanks! I'll stick to water!

When I told Kait and Ammon, I've read that they actually have water only bars in Europe and I think are working their way way into U.S. big cities - they about spit out their beer! Notice I say ABOUT. They'd never waste it! lol

Oh, water! I love it!
That's why I'm a climbing mom! And not a climber - hahaha

Ciao
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
I remember that story about Richard at the university. It occurred around 1999 - 2001 if I recall correctly.

I have to run out right now, but somewhere I made a post regarding Richard, where I asked you guys if a person should lose his job before giving a student a mark she didn't deserve. I believe it is the same story that is referenced above, where the university basically told Richard that he had to raise her mark because her dad was a HUGE donor to the university, but that Richard refused.

Can anyone find that link? Something like, "Would you be willing to lose your job to do what's right?"

P.S. The reason I was away was I was fishing with my son out in our canoe!
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
The Chief said, "I can personally detest that I saw no enhancements on the first pitch"

No comment aside from the fact that I love a good malapropism. I think we need all the laughs we can get from this topic.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
"To continue suggesting that Richard Jensen and Mark Smith are liars, and that they misrepresented anything in their ascent of Wings of Steel, would be both libellous and a defamation of character. "

Pete

To suggest that this behavior will stop just because someone did the SA and somehow "validated" the route is ludicrous.

When a person has hated someone they have never met, so hard, for so long, over something as insignificant as a rock climb they have never done, that person quite obviously has their own reality.

They have invested 30 years of hate, angst, energy and attacks into developing that reality and they will not let go easily.

I'm just happy that despite the fact that the route was put up in a style I don't agree with, I manage to get through life without it consuming me.

I think what this thread needs now is more pictures of Murph.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Pete wrote a very fair, logical and balanced summary above.

So off with his head!!

Interesting story on the academia, apparently the universe likes frying Jensen in sizzling oil but it's probably good for him and at least shows some good qualities.

Now if you insist on truth (and you could be wrong, but that's a related issue) then politics are not going to go smoothly for you.

These days, the truth about things seems to be coming out, much to the dismay of secret keepers.

Maybe we need to start Wiki-Climbs

Peace

Karl
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 12, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
mawk

Big Wall climber
Hugo, MN
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
“People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument”.

Will Rogers


Observe the snoozing puppy...
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
There you go!

Puppies beat ethics arguments every time.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
Just wanted to point this out:

#1SuperMama wrote/reported:

Pete - later in ur message = mostly natural hooking with some enhanced. And some of the enhanced ones, Ammon able to hook around using natural edges.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&msg=1549338#msg1549338

Then Pete wrote:

If I understand correctly, Ammon reports again seeing no enhancements, so truly the enhancements made were so small as to be invisible, especially with the help of a quarter-century of erosion.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&msg=1551020#msg1551020


just sayin...sounds like he's seen some, and even bypassed some...

Sounds pretty bad ass though, go Ammon and Kait!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 12, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
I can't resist observing that the story of Jenson's rattle in academia is pretty telling regarding the personality of the FAionistas.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
I can't resist observing that the story of Jenson's rattle in academia is pretty telling regarding the personality of the FAionistas.

Yup, but perhaps revealing lack of compromise and diplomacy rather than lack of integrity

Failure to please those who feel their authority needed to be surrendered to.

peace

Karl
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 12, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
Failure to please those who feel their authority needed to be surrendered to.

Same theme, two stories?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 12, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
"And I hope they can avoid the pitfalls of Mimiism."

Karl - as the developer of our McTopo term "Loisification," I was wondering if you might be willing to take a stab at defining "Mimiism"?
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 12, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
There's a fine route at Mt Lemmon called Pitfalls of Hesitation. I was hoping it'd be a Grossman route...alas, Steiger and Ringle. That woulda been funny...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 12, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Karl - as the developer of our McTopo term "Loisification," I was wondering if you might be willing to take a stab at defining "Mimiism"?

Nah, let Mimi be. It's hard to consider new information or even contemplate a change of heart when everybody is in your face.

Let's just address the issues raised by history and by the climb and if anybody's mind changes, it's to their credit.

Peace

Karl
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 13, 2011 - 12:03am PT
Here it is for the day...
"Done with SLAB!!!
Biveeing under Overseer then on to 10 tomorrow."

Slow and steady go my turtles! Hey, maybe that should be their stuffed animals for the wall?

Pete - Glad you had time with your son fishing out in your canoe.
"Cuz when it comes down to it - that's what life is all about - FAMILY.

Have a good ranting night,
Mama Annie

P.S. I think everyone is about done with this thread for awhile! lol
It's seems like it has been dying a slow death these past few days!
(And have you ever looked up the two words dye and die and which one to use when you
want to add -ed or -ing to the end. CRAZY maan, crazy! When I teach, I always tell my
kids what a crazy f*#ked up language our native tongue is! Well, maybe, not in exactly
those words!) hahaha

And Ammon and Kait are not forthcoming with a lot of info right now, they want to be able to
explain it??? Don't know if that is significant or not!?

Wiped out! Night.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 13, 2011 - 12:24am PT
I think everyone is about done with this thread for awhile! lol
It's seems like it has been dying a slow death these past few days!

We're just waiting for the TR from Ammon and Kait at this point...

Going to have to figure when and where to meet up to deliver the cash and Oregon microbrew.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 13, 2011 - 12:57am PT
All I can say is - 2 more to 900! Oh and I like that quote.

Woot Woot!

I'm gonna do everything to be the 1000th. : )

That's my climbing goal! ahahahah

I just hope I don't have to write the next 102. Oh god!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 13, 2011 - 01:24am PT
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2011 - 08:47am PT
Done with SLAB!!!


Nice work!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2011 - 11:25am PT
Only a hundred head placements and four pitches to Aquarian Wall! Ammon told me he brought rivets to replace the batheads on the final traverse left to Aquarian.

I and everyone else are sure looking forward to hearing all about Ammon's and Kait's historic second ascent! I'm especially interested in hearing about what apparently stopped everyone else, but knott them.

There is nothing wrong with being a Big Wall Turtle. I have employed this strategy with great success.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jul 13, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Going like a turtle can be a lot of fun. It's considerate of Kait and Ammon to climb at this time of year, so as not to be creating a roadblock in front of all the faster parties.


:-)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 11:53am PT
It sure does seem to me that there is a lot of egg heading towards the faces of a prominent duo on this forum!

Go Ammon! Go Kait!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
hmm...I wonder....
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
Hey Annie,

That's great that they've knocked off the Slab, so now only a hundred head placements and four pitches to Aquarian Wall!

The nature of the climbing will now change from “hooking” to “heading”, and we haven’t really talked about heading here at all. So here goes.

CAVEAT: If you have placed hundreds of heads and know everything there is to know about heads, you might want to skip this next bit. But if you don’t know your head from a hole in the ground, read on. If you plan on reading the post in its entirety, you may wish to grab a coffee or beer, depending on whether it is before or after Changeover Time.




I hope these heading pitches don't slow Ammon down too much. In the appendix to Wings of Steel, where Richard gives his bolt, rivet, hole and hook count, he also says here that they made 205 head placements:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/516588/Wings-of-Steel-XXVII-the-Downward-Spiral

205 head placements is a helluva lot of head placements! By Ammon's account there haven't been very many heads on the slab, so I am assuming that most of the heading comes in the next few pitches before Wings of Steel joins Aquarian Wall and then ends. [Note to dumbass First Ascensionists: Wings of Steel does not end and then join Aquarian Wall. Sheesh.]

How quickly and easily these next four pitches, which I'm assuming required a lot of head placements, can be climbed will depend on four things:

 the existence or not of Mark and Richard's original heads

 whether these heads can still be used

 the difficulty in replacing deadheads or else bypassing them

 the shape of the cracks, and whether modern gear could instead be used


For those of you unfamiliar with exactly what a "head" is, it's a tiny blob of soft aluminum or soft copper swaged onto the end of a cable which has a clip-in loop where you can attach your aiders. You place it like a stopper in a placement that is not quite good enough to accept a stopper. Basically you pre-shape the metal blob with your hammer so that it approximates the shape of your placement, and then using either the tip of your hammer for big heads, or a blunted chisel or punch for small heads, you smash the thing into place. The objective is to hit the metal so aggressively you deform it and "paste" the thing into place until "it's welder, dude." Back in the day, heads were sometimes called “bashies” or “mashies”.



Selection of rivet hangers and assorted heads [both copper and aluminum] used by me and Kate on our ascent of Born Under A Bad Sign - RURP and Big Wall Crab for scale


Heads can be placed in very marginal placements, allowing you to progress upwards where cams, pitons or stoppers won't fit, and where there are no hook placements. Mark and Richard said they placed mostly #2, #1 and #0 heads - see link above. The strength of the head placement depends on the shape of the placement [how well it approximates a good stopper placement, or has parallel sides, or is just a marginal divot], the size of the head, and the diameter of the cable. A #2 is pretty strong, and will hold short falls. A #1 is pretty marginal, and a #0 is certainly pretty much body-weight only. You tend to use aluminum, which is softer but more "sticky", in larger placements from say #2 on up. You tend to use copper, which is harder and stronger but less "sticky", in the small placements. A long section of heading is usually considered to be hard and potentially scary, usually more so than say nailing or camming.

Accordingly, the use of heads allows you to climb incipient cracks or “seams” not big enough or deep enough or featured enough to accept any other type of climbing gear. Heads also allow you to use a more tenuous form of climbing gear rather than drilling a hole and placing a rivet.

A long string of small heads in a crack where no other gear like pins, stoppers or cams can be placed is generally reckoned to be about A4. Sometimes you can get in a #3 head which is pretty strong, or even a #4 "cow head" which is quite solid, which could bring the rating down. If you had a whole bunch of heads in a row, and were then faced with a section of crack not featured enough to accept even a head, you would either have to place a rivet, or “enhance” the head placement – see below.

Sometimes a head placement can be cleaned by the "second" [aka the "cleaner"] who jugs the rope and takes out the gear placed by the leader. Cleaning a head usually requires that you attach one end of your Funkness Device [a swaged steel cable] to the cable of the head, and the other end to the hole in your hammer, and you apply an outward and upward jerk to hopefully remove the head cleanly.

The problem with cleaning heads is that it may not be possible. If the head placement put in by the leader is small or marginal, [or the leader was really scared!] he would have been more likely to have really pasted-the-livin'-bejeepers out of the thing, meaning that it may be impossible to remove. If the cleaner tries to "funk it out", he is most likely to break the cable, leaving a "dead head" in the placement. A dead head is a busted-off blob of aluminum or copper, with no cable to clip. Not only it is unsightly, but it has rendered that placement in the crack useless because it occupies the space.

For the record, I tend to place heads extremely well and solidly, and I generally don't attempt to clean them. If the route doesn't see much traffic, and the head is protected from the elements and the head uses a stainless steel cable, a fixed head can still be useable ten or even twenty years down the road. This may be preferable to placing and removing the head, which hurts the rock.

On Trade Routes that see a lot of traffic, you tend to find "fixed heads", meaning they are left behind by previous ascensionists. Sometimes you find long strings of these things fixed - is this pitch A4, or is it A0? The problem with fixed heads is that the cables become frayed, the freeze-thaw action of repeated winters loosens the metal, and eventually they fail, either with the head popping out of the rock, or the cable breaking. It is therefore very important to bounce-test any fixed head you plan on using to climb. The trick here is to bounce-test it GENTLY - hard enough so that you figure it will hold your weight, but not so hard as to rip the thing out of the rock or break the cable.

Climbing fixed heads on routes like Mescalito or Zodiac, that get climbed dozens of times every season, may not be so scary, because for the most part someone just tested the thing not long before you, and used it. Other times it can be really scary, because the cables are abraded from overuse, with only a few strands left, and you wonder if you will be the lucky guy who finally breaks the thing once and for all.

You could climb a dozen or more popular El Cap routes, and never have to place a head, because all of the heads required are fixed. Even on a seldom repeated hard route like Atlantic Ocean Wall, I don't think I placed more than about six or eight heads. Generally speaking, placing your own heads is more time-consuming than placing a cam or pin, but once you get the hang of it - and the only way you can do this is to climb hard/obscure/less popular routes - it's not too bad. I've placed hundreds of heads, and almost none of the heads I've placed myself has failed. But I sure can't say the same for all the fixed heads I've clipped!

Nobody has reached the headwall before, and we haven't talked about Mark and Richard's heading practices. We don't know if they cleaned their heads, or not. Most parties don't clean fixed heads, leaving them for subsequent ascents as described above.

If there are fixed heads on Wings of Steel, their useability depends on how weathered they are. Probably they will not be trustworthy, and if they are in any way useable, they will be scary! How would you like to clip a tiny strand of probably-not-stainless steel that has been swinging around in the rain, wind and snow for nearly thirty years? You could climb up your aiders, be staring at the next piece, and then – PLINK! Off into space you go, only to fall on the next fixed head below you, which wasn’t any good to being with, and so on….

Presumably there are few deadheads. Deadheads are formed either by an old fixed head breaking through repeated use by subsequent ascent parties, or by a cleaner trying too hard to clean a head his leader placed, usually because the team is running out of heads and they need to be removed and reused. [You can re-use a head once or twice if you're lucky, but they're not expensive and they lose malleability and "bite" with each re-use, and are hence pretty crappy and scary.] Richard and Mark's gear list says they had plenty of heads, so they wouldn't have had to clean them to reuse them. Since this part has not been climbed, deadheads are unlikely.

So Ammon and Kait could be faced with long strings of old/marginal/oxidized/crappy/scary fixed heads. These will have to be either climbed on, or removed and replaced, or new heads will need to be added. Ammon would know this, and would presumably have brought a bunch of heads.

Cleaning old heads is very difficult and time-consuming, especially if the rock is steep or overhanging. In fact, it is often far harder to remove an old head [or especially a deadhead] than it is to place a brand new head. And sometimes this is the only way to continue, because an existing dead head or head with a marginal cable occupies the only placement. Other times, the crack is nice and wiggly, and you can bypass the existing rotten placement with a new placement nearby. But sometimes old heads can be cleaned very easily with a gentle jerk of your funkness – the metal blob on the head of the head is so weakened that it pops right out.

As mentioned, deadheads are extremely difficult to remove. If you are on a route that requires significant amounts of heading, it is a really good idea to bring a “butterknife” which is a sharpened chisel specifically designed for loosening and prying out fixed deadheads.




Butterknife being used to remove deadheads on Wyoming Sheep Ranch, El Cap. There are actually two deadheads in this placement – a partially removed aluminum head on the bottom, and what looks to be a smaller double-height copperhead above.





If you don’t have a butterknife, removing deadheads so you can reuse the placement with a new head is very difficult, if not impossible.

It is also possible that “modern” climbing gear can eliminate some of the head placements. Tiny cams not available to Richard and Mark could work, and also the new big Pecker pitons in the #2 and #3 sizes.

If you want to know more about heads and how to place them, and get an idea what Ammon may have to do to climb the next few pitches of Wings of Steel, you can click here:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/dr-pitons-heading-tips/106076091

Note: Big wall climbers - who want to learn how to place heads properly - will also benefit from reading the above link.

There is one ethical dilemma when placing heads, which may or may not have faced the first ascensionists. Sometimes head placements are so marginal, they need to be enhanced with a chisel. This practice is known as “trenching a head” and it is COMMONPLACE, even on first ascents.

Imagine you are climbing a head seam, and you are faced with a section of crack that has no natural head placement that you can make work. You need to have “something” to place a head in – and while it doesn’t need to be much, the head placement has to exist – a bit of parallel-sided crack, a divot, something. In this situation where nothing at all exists, you have two choices – either drill a rivet, or enhance the head placement. If the head seam has petered out, and you expect to be drilling a rivet ladder across blank rock, then you would probably reach for the drill. But what if the heading crack continues above this blank section, and it looks as though you will be able to continue heading? In this situation, most Yosemite first ascensionists would choose to “trench a head” – in other words, use their chisel to artificially enhance a not-quite-good-enough placement to create a head placement that is barely good enough to accept a head. Yes, this is cheating. But so is drilling a rivet. Which is the lesser of two evils?

It really depends on the choice of the first ascensionist. If you have a legit and cool head seam, you would probably choose to keep it going, albeit artificially, by trenching a head instead of drilling a rivet. Drilling a rivet in the middle of a head seam would suddenly reduce the rating of the pitch by as many as two letter grades, turning an A4 into an A2 for instance. Many first ascensionists prefer to keep the “sporty” nature of their pitch going.

Erik Kohl, one of Yosemite’s most prolific and bad-ass first ascensionists [aka Klaus here on McTopo] has written that in many instances he would prefer to trench a head rather than drill a rivet. I agree with this practice, for what it’s worth, and would not fault Klaus in the least. And most wall climbers agree it’s a better alternative.

Now for nebulous reasons, the practice of enhancing head placements is a LOT less contentious than the practice of enhancing hook placements! Is there some sort of double-standard happening with enhancing heads vs. enhancing hooks? There could be. Certainly the enhancement of heads is more accepted than that of enhancing hooks.

A final thing that is certain to slow Ammon down is when he reaches the ladder of bat-heads where Wings of Steel joins Aquarian Wall. At this point, the first ascensionists had [stupidly and carelessly] dropped either their drill or their sharpening stone or their bag of rivets [can’t remember which] and were unable to place a proper rivet ladder. [Can anyone provide link please?] Instead they drilled shallow holes, and pasted heads into these holes, which is a viable but temporary emergency solution. The problem with this practice is that the cable heads have a very finite lifespan due to oxidation, and are almost certainly going to break when Ammon tries to use them. The practice of placing bat-heads is considered extremely bad form, basically a botch-job.

That these bat-heads exist and are bad form is agreed upon by all. Mark and Richard acknowledge their mistake in dropping critical gear and that drilling the bat-heads was not good. They should have “racked for redundancy” meaning that you don’t put all your climbing gear eggs in one basket. They should have had two separate and independent rivet kits, so that if one got dropped by accident [it happens, people drop stuff off big walls] they would have backups to what they needed. Certainly the guys were getting pretty tired and thirsty by this point, and were down to very meagre rations. This is not an excuse, but an observation. About the only thing not agreed upon here is the count – either twelve or thirteen bat-heads.

Ammon told me he brought rivets to replace the batheads on this final traverse left to Aquarian. I hope he does this, even if the bat-head wires are still useable.





I and everyone else are sure looking forward to hearing all about Ammon's and Kait's historic second ascent! I'm especially interested in hearing about what apparently stopped everyone else, but knott them.

Cheers and beers,
“Pass the Pitons” Pete aka Dr. Piton



Below you’ll find a few odds and ends of “aid trinkets” in an old photo of mine from back in the day


At the top are some small copperheads with a “toonie” and a Merrican dime for scale. There is one new double, two used doubles and a used single. You could call these either the #1 or #0 size. The used ones were cleaned from the A5 corner on Jolly Roger during its eighth ascent.

Below my old Canadian passport – where you see my photo with Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab – is a #1 pecker piton, sort of shaped like the number 7. The new #2 and #3 peckers are much bigger than this. It is similar to the A5 Birdbeak at the bottom, a similar piton which is no longer manufactured.

You’ll also see a thoroughly over-used Kong adjustable fifi hook – great for fine-tuning your top-stepping – as well as a short-thick knifeblade or Bugaboo piton, and a straightened-out Grappling hook after I took a daisy-chain fall onto it [not recommended]

Which just goes to show you - everyone loves a little head from time to time.


Edit: ANNIE - please check your email, eh?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 13, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
supa ma wrote

Slow and steady go my turtles! Hey, maybe that should be their stuffed animals for the wall?

Yeah, when's that Ammon going to learn to speed things up a bit?

He's a regular PTPP!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
Aghh, Pete, it's hard to look at that last photo. Would you mind bluring out the face a bit?

(har, har)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 13, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
as an alternative to using bolts, i made my own mashies and bashies back in the early sixties from little blocks of aluminum with a hole in the middle threaded with parachute cord

the trick was to get a grip on the rock before the parachute cord got smashed to the point of breaking

i showed these to Royal and he loved them

Royal had me demonstrate these to Lionel Terray on his visit to Yosemite with his arm in a cast from the first ascent of Chacraraju

Lionel looked at one of my placements and said there was no way that could work 'pas possible!'...then he was able to place his full weight in the aid sling and jump on it

'mon dieu!'


edit: several of us were also experimenting with methods by which the slab under the Dihedral Wall might be ascended; resulting in the discovery that about 18 inches of Duct tape combined with GPA slab climbing techniques would hold your weight for a while at that slab angle on a cloudy cool day

in retrospect, gaffer's tape would probably do better
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
edit: several of us were also experimenting with methods by which the slab under the Dihedral Wall might be ascended; resulting in the discovery that about 18 inches of Duct tape combined with GPA slab climbing techniques would hold your weight for a while at that slab angle on a cloudy cool day

Sweet! Where's the nearest Home Depot?

That is absolutely great!
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 13, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
a while back the Chief wrote:
"Interesting how the "consensus" in this 2800 plus post discourse was that DR & SJ's new "Rap bolted" route on the SF of HD was OK."

Sorry I can't let that go unanswered.
I don't recall any such consensus, especially not on the SFHD.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 13, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Too bad we can't measure and weigh every grain of granite removed from El Cap for each FA pitch on every route and rank them. I have the sneaking suspicion the first nine pitches WoS would rank solidly in the bottom tenth of that list.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
If I drag a hook across an edge to "clean up the edge", you know, I'm up there, I want as good a hook as I can get, I'm cleaning out some grit, is that merely cleaning or is that enhancing?

I can't imagine Robbins, Frost, Pratt and Chouinard not doing that on, i.e., the NA and calling it "enhancing". Eh?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
What? You thought he got up things clean? You can bet he spent most of those fifteen hours on the Nose stopping to abrade - sorry, chip - the sh#t out of it at every stance.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
So there I am, a couple of weeks ago, up on ZM, apparently off route, although I didn't know it at the time. I'm standing on a hook placement that looked like it had been used before but I couldn't see any placements above. I searched and searched and found a little hole with some sand in it. I took out a wire and did my best to clean the sand out of the hole. So far so good except for this tiny little pebble that would be blocking the exit of a wire for a bomber but tiny nut placement. I tickled it a bit with the wire to no avail. Finally I grabbed a beak, and was able to work the little tiny stone out of the crack. A tiny nut just fit into the hole and slot. I top stepped up on it and realized I was off route.

Enhancement (not allowed) or cleaning (allowed)?
Gene

climber
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
Enhancement (not allowed) or cleaning (allowed)?


Mark,

We'll have your answer in about 2,000 posts.

g
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
Sweet essay.

Keep up the good work team, lots of people are rooting for ya!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
Enhancement (not allowed) or cleaning (allowed)?

Deep down in your heart of hearts you know which it was...


...and you still feel guilty about it don't you? You can be honest - this is Supertopo after all.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
PTPP said - Only a hundred head placements and four pitches to Aquarian Wall!

yeah that is really proud, you aid climbers are so amusing when you take yourself seriously.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Mark's scenario - purely hypothetical, I'm sure, a mere thought experiment - would at least make him an accessory after the fact.

And then there's the "special equipment" that Weld_it provided...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
Hey there, Goatboy - howz about we set you up with a pair of aiders and a handful of heads and a few toolz, and send you up a nice steep heading crack?

We can watch your bollocks shrivel in terror with each successive placement.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
They would shrivel because I turned into an aid climber then the turbo betties would shun me...because I turned into an aid climber.

Maybe I better to stick to french free routes only just to be safe.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
All my hooks are sharpened to points so there is no way in hell they aren't doing some damage.
Burt

Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
Everything we do modifies the rock... Belay bolts on Jolly Roger, to head ladders on WOS... The purist truly are the ones who never leave the ground, anything past that we are all just stroking our own egos... but once a route has been laid out I firmly feel that it is wrong to bring out the drill to make the route more convenient or to ease your scared pussy ass! ... those are the ones that Mimi and Steve should be screaming about!
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
Again I say.....sure hope those two make an ascent! Will be good hear the words they have to say either way. WAY more than I could ever handle, would be good to see em do it.
Peace
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jul 13, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
Thanks for the nice little essay Pete.

Got sucked in, I admit it. After years of shunning WOS threads I got curious about Ammon and Kait's bid. Not an aid climber, not a wall buy, so the little tutorial bounced me from totally clueless to, to... Well, now I have a lot more appreciation for what you guys do.

And yes, respect even.

Just one question left: Is the summit of the Captain festooned with weirdly fossilized, tube-shaped compost offerings?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 13, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Doing my part to get to 999 posts for #1mama.

Everything we do modifies the rock... Belay bolts on Jolly Roger, to head ladders on WOS... The purist truly are the ones who never leave the ground,

The big wall routes on the captain are not 100% pure, but Nutcracker was a statement that pure climbs are possible. No pitons, no bolts needed. That climb could have been done thousands of time with only some polishing really changing the route (unfortunately even on that historic climb a few boneheads tried to place a bolt and pound some pins, not THAT'S shameful).

Belay bolts don't really change the nature of a big wall route much, but any other time the hammer comes out it does change the route. We have new cams, Tomahawk Pitons, and who knows what else the future holds. So even the climber trying to be as pure is possible is making a decision to accept a certain amount of "damage" when they wield a hammer that future climbers may not need to do to FA that route.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
PatchPro™®©, with its revolutionary ciliatechnology (sillytechnology), will make all this stuff obsolete. Just slap, stick and go. No environmental impacts.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
Simple. The cilia in the PatchPro™®© will become one with the lichen. It may even be made in camouflage colours, to blend with the lichen, preserve the spirit of adventure, and annoy greenies who get upset with shiny metal bits in the rock.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 13, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
Don't worry about Lichen. Werewolf claws won't damage the rock.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
Thanks for your kind words, Doug, especially after some of mine regarding GU.

You may be interested in knowing that most wall climbers place their heads from below whilst climbing towards the summit from the ground. {wink}
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 13, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
I have nothing to add except...

When was the last time we had a post from the American Chopper???


VROOOOM!!!!!one
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 13, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
Fatty,

Are you calling my crab a homo?!


"Well you can knock me down, step on my face
Splatter my name all over the place
Steal my pins, pick my scab,
But aw-aw honey lay offa my crab!

And don't you ... step on my big wall crab {plink, plink, plink}
Well you can do anything, just lay offa my big wall crab"



Do you like Wee-Wee's Chongo hat and stealth rubber on his feet? And BTW, how did you miss his hair extension?
MisterE

Social climber
CA
Jul 13, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
One post closer to 1000 for #1SuperMama's "climbing" goal!

You post-hounds better let her have that post too! ;)
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 12:43am PT
Well, haven't heard from my two turtles tonight!

They were going for two pitches, but after reading Pete's essay (thanks for all the info, even if way above my climbing knowledge) and all the work that Ammon may b n for, it'll be interesting to see where they end up tonight.

I have to say how Happy and PROUD I am of all of you.
You took the gauntlet and did not let this thread crap out! I just had to write that! ; }

Keep on threading - even if it is minutiae at times - lolol

Love you all,
#1Mama

P.S. #1000 is mine! TTys
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:31am PT
^^ What RJ, Ron and Mister E said. One of the BEST Mamas on the Taco!

Go Ammon, go Kait!!!!
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:44am PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:47am PT
jiff

Ice climber
colorado
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:13am PT

doin what i can to get to 1 grand!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:14am PT
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:18am PT
Be careful letting that dog go out to bars on a full moon night.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:35am PT
Can't sleep!

U climbers have No idea what you do to your parents' minds when you're on the wall!
Or at least we parents that know you're on. ; )

Even though I know there can be a bunch of reasons why Kait hasn't checked in - I still am left wide awake with a million different scenarios playing in my head...
...Kait so tired she forgot to call in
(she normally doesn't check in like this, but this climb is just - different.)
...phone died
...one of them's hurt
...the hardware (rivets) that Pete talked about yesterday blew...
...Kait and Ammon are having an all-night strip poker game
...and the scenarios keep playing on and on and on and...

So as of 1:45am, with the full moon lighting up the bedroom, and sleep as ellusive as finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, I shall go find some comfort food. Since I'm failing miserably at "positivity" right now.

A Parent's Perspective,
#1Mama
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:45am PT
SM... they are not hurt... everything is golden. :)

You are feeling very sleepy. ;)
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2011 - 07:37am PT
...phone died

I bet that's it. Or it's broken. If there is any real problem, we would have heard about it by now and you'd have both the army and marines of YOSAR on the task.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 08:34am PT
Supermama.....I know what you mean. Being a parent has it's double edge....the joys of watching yer kids....and the worry of not knowing how they are doing. Bet everything is fine, maybe like you said, just too tired or the phone pooped out. One reason I never pushed my kids to climb...so I had one less worry of them. They may be pushing to get the next pitch done, so they can get off the wall. Hope you got some rest and hope they're both fine!
Peace
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 14, 2011 - 10:12am PT
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:18am PT
This thread has clearly gone to the dogs...Go K & A!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:35am PT
Cell phone reception on El Cap, especially on the left side, can be really sketchy at times. Your signal will go from three bars to no signal and then stay there. Now that they're into the steep bit, their direct line of sight to the cell phone towers may be blocked, too. And of course cell phone batteries die all the time.

For what it's worth, these upper pitches offer safer climbing with far less risk of long dangerous falls. They just may be time consuming for reasons mentioned above.

Annie - please check your email, the one you used to set up your account here. Or else write me directly at passthepitonspete at that hot address dott comm, eh?
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Halleujah!

Kait and Ammon are at the top of Pitch 11.
And the goal is to finish WoS today and pendulum over to Aquarian.
Woot Woot!

Feeling ever so much better now.
And can go about my day with less stress.

Chill out,
Annie
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
Thanks for the updates, Annie. Hopefully the heading won't slow them down too much.

Today with any luck they will be reaching the traversing ladder of bat-heads - shallow bat holes filled with copperheads whose cables are probably corroded and no longer useable. Ammon may have to put in new rivets, which he told me he brought to cover this eventuality. While it is normally not cool to "add rivets" to an existing route, in this instance it is legit because he is correcting the mistake of the first ascensionists after they dropped key items in the rivet kit and were unable to do the job right in this last section.

Drilling is tedious, time-consuming and strenuous, but maybe with a little extra reach he can reduce the number of holes below the current count of 12 or 13.

Once he's on Aquarian Wall, a speed climber like Ammon - who has climbed many hard El Cap nailups in a day or less - should be able to fly up to Thanksgiving Ledge.

Do you know if they plan to leave their stuff there at Thanksgiving Ledge and return later to get it? It's a long schlepp over the top via the West Buttress/Lurking Fear finish down to the East Ledges. Plus they must be running low on food and water. Have they said how their supplies are holding out?

Can't wait to hear all about it! Go Kait and Ammon! Get this damn thing over with!

Cheers,
Pete
MH2

climber
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
Fantastic.

A pirate, a young woman, a Mom, a dog, and a Canadian scarecrow bust the spell on WoS.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
Yup, we've got it all here on the McTopo forum:

Villains, scoundrels, goats, heroes, sh|tters, canines, crustaceans, pirates. Rivets and bolts, hooks and heads, enhancements and batholes, screaming whippers and screaming climbers, dislocations and relocations, lies, innuendo, accusations, defenses. And maybe somewhere even some truth.

How will it all play out? Will the goats become heroes and vice versa? Or knott? Will the sh|tters be outed? Will any former detractors' opinions be changed?

And would anyone dare offer a confession, or worse {gasp} an apology?

Grab your popcorn and beers, folks, because when Ammon and Kait hit town, the sh|t is going to hit the ropes!
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
Hey MH2: Don't forget the picture posting proud Pops! Geesh...what am I chopped liver?
MH2

climber
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
Are you the wizard?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Wizard????
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Yes, thanks Tarz for your great photos!

You make sure Annie stays on top of this - and I do mean right now - if she wants her 1000th post. 20 more to go then it's her turn.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
Kait and Ammon are at the top of Pitch 11.

Annie or Tarz, am wondering if you heard from them via phone, or if someone spotted them and let you know?

re. the 1000th post... as long as Annie is in there somewhere close, like RJ said, "we can fix" :-)
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I just warned her to keep up on it. Hahaha We instilled in our kids a love of Yosemite and what it has to offer and what a treasure it is. Little did we know our daughter would be scaling walls with a Pirate. ARGHHH! Proud of her and Ammon. Takes free swinging cahones to do what they are doing!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 14, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Annie, Tarz: When it gets to about post #997, the etiquette is that someone really really wanting post #1000 (you) should then post the same thing, four or five times in a row. It neatly brackets #1,000, so even if someone deletes earlier posts, one or other of yours ends up as #1,000.

Silly, maybe, and not of any real importance, but local etiquette.

Just don't ask us about how to hold a teacup.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
I know you'll ALL do me proud!

1000th = they're off and heading to Aquarian!

Hopefully, no fixing (unless someone doesn't play by #1Mama ethics or morality on this) - just let it hold!
I may be in a spot where I can't post and have to wait for my two turtles to call! Which as some of you have said and Kait repeated this morning - it's all about the cell reception.

Love you all,
#1Mama
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
I know how to hold a teacup.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
One may hold a teacup but can one hold a Tempest?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
If you can't hold a Tempest, a Tempest may hold you.
Good form, Tarz.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Thanks for the pic!

Cool line...
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
Just for the record.....that ain't me!!! I am a lot better looking.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 14, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
Sorry, Tarz...Your subject has good form, then.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
OK, Annie - it's all you.

Sock it to us!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
Holding!

***Had to copy and paste to a later post due to deletions.

***This was originally the 1000th post!!! Woot Woot!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Will edit when the time is ripe!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Holding!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
Still holding!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
And holding some more!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
And once again...
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
Not holding any longer!
Now you can officially toast, take a drink, or whatever is your preference!

The official word - "We are exhausted and biveeing on the top of Pitch 12. We have one pitch on Aquarian done and are going to eat and then sleep. We are hoping two or three more days and then down to valley floor by Sunday/Monday." Woot Woot!

So proud of the two of them. What an epic for Ammon and Kait and for this thread!
It's been real!

Now who will do the TA???

Over and almost out,
The #1SuperMama
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
And yeah I guess I need to meet you all at the base for an ethics and morality class.
hahaha
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
But I love you all anyway
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Can I be done with this silliness yet?
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
nope
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
i better be safe!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Are you POSITIVE, Ron???
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
Now if we could just get a couple of Men of Men to help them down with the Pigs! Hahahaha
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
#1SuperMama, you can always go back and edit the post that actually ends up as #1,000, for about a week or so. That is, add some real content to it - poetry, photos, stories, and so on. Or stories about Ammon's favourite teddy.

The most workable technique is to post a bunch in a row, before, during and after the desired number. Just to be on the safe side.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
OMGawd!
But you know, I'm still holding for that phone call! Have my champagne chilling in the fridge and crystal champagne flute ready!

You are all so funny and have made my days a million times over since this journey began.

Yeah, I can hit the shower and the road. Squeezed my exercise routine in this morning through all of these posts climbing higher and higher!
Got stuff to do.

TTYS,
The #1SuperMama
(and that's cuz of my two kids which has grown exponentially through the years and now includes you all!)

Totally enjoy your day - 'cuz I'm smiling ear to ear (just like Murph and Coops)!
: ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) = the day count so far on SA WoS!
They took a # of days off to run errands.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
And Mighty Hiker - you should know what Ammon's Teddy is??? or should I say who his Teddy is???

Ciao
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
Well, the deed is done and while it not Ammon's cup of tea it will be interesting to hear his take on it all and where he stands with respect to his feelings about the FA now that he's done it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
I may not know who Ammon's teddy is, but I can guess who he cuddles with at night. :-)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
Hey Annie,

The very end of Wings of Steel - right where they meet Aquarian, is significant because of a bat-head ladder. Please ask Ammon and Kait to comment on what they find there, as it will be interesting to all.
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
I'll buy the King Cobra and Sierra Nevada if someone will meet them with it at the top!!! I would but I have to work.
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:25pm PT

This is an interesting read in light of this unfolding saga.


http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web11x/wfeature-peter-beal-threshold
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 14, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
It may be related in aspects, but I'd still call him on this...

Older attitudes of elitism and arrogance towards outsiders helped limit progress across the climbing world by restricting access to information and creating the impression of superhuman ability on the part of top performers

Total bullsh#t...

...and it's today's injection of commercially-driven hero-worship that creates the impression superhuman ability is required to climb well.
MisterE

Social climber
CA
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
Thanks for the link, SGropp - great read!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
Your "holdings" are hillarious, supermama. Love it!
tarek

climber
berkeley
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Edit: Skip my post--Werner, one of the original "valley syndrome" progenitors, says I'm full of sh'it.

healyje

I totally disagree. That's where he hit the nail on the head.
25 years ago, Midnight Lightning was considered out of reach but for a select few hardmen. Really strong lesser-known climbers failed on it in the 80s and I think it was the aura and the scene that held them back. It took the kids of the early 90s to expose it as just another beautiful v8 to be crushed. And, sorry, pads are not the explanation.

There may be rampant commercialism, but gone are the days when tanned one-arm pullups and pecking orders gained you status in the climbing world. Who could be more emblematic of this shift than Adam Ondra? The hardest hardman: a short-armed, long-necked, uncool, pale climbing phenom. Now some moron will say that Ondra can't climb Twilight Zone.

Sorry for the drift--way to go K & A.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 14, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
I totally disagree. That's where he hit the nail on the head.
25 years ago, Midnight Lightning was considered out of reach but for a select few hardmen.

Last time I checked Midnight Lightning was on a small rock out in the open near Camp 4 and available to anyone to step up to. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone being denied a go on it. Anyone 'limited' by Midnight Lightning was entirely self-limied. That section of his tract is just one long bullshit whine.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Jul 14, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
One tiny correction, Pete. Getting across to Aquarian is on bathooks, not batheads. We left just a short line of holes with a few rivets. There were a few batheads low on the route, as we quickly abandoned the experiment.

Even the Reid guide got that right. Sheesh, dude. Still perpetrating the lie, I see.

:-)
tarek

climber
berkeley
Jul 14, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
it's the mindset, not the rock (small rock? I think not; for proportional influence on climbing, the columbia boulder might be bigger than el cap). I think the essay does apply to wos. Self-limitation is a half-truth and a myth.

Why do "send trains" occur? Because "self limitations" suddenly disappear for a group of people in succession?

Like it or not, actions you think are self-directed are often limited and shaped by forces outside of your consciousness. Calling it all self-limitation is fine if you are content to ignore the way mental things work.
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 14, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Wow I need a session with Freud after that 2nd to last post. I'm confoozled.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 14, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
How come the only hard offwidth with a send train is the belly?
WBraun

climber
Jul 14, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
tarek

You're so full of sh'it.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 15, 2011 - 12:53am PT
Holy frig, Richard - that might be the shortest non-ranting-est post you ever wrote! ;)

Sorry about the misinformation [not disinformation] re the final traverse. Maybe Ammon can just drill 'em out then and stick in some rivets then?

Anyway, check yer email, and ask Mark to do the same, eh?

And let's take up the cry: "A thousand bolts to Horse Chute!"
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:11am PT
Okay - check out post 1000.

It's official!

And yea, I did do a SuperMama overkill, but sounded like I needed to!

Night!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:13am PT
Post #1,000, by #1SuperMama

Jul 14, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Not holding any longer!
Now you can officially toast, take a drink, or whatever is your preference!

The official word - "We are exhausted and biveeing on the top of Pitch 12. We have one pitch on Aquarian done and are going to eat and then sleep. We are hoping two or three more days and then down to valley floor by Sunday/Monday." Woot Woot!

So proud of the two of them. What an epic for Ammon and Kait and for this thread!
It's been real!

Now who will do the TA???

Over and almost out,
The #1SuperMama
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:28am PT
Congrats to Ammon and Kait! Way to send.

Did Ammon fill the batholes with rivets on the traverse into Aquarian?

How are their supplies holding out? And what is a TA?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:35am PT
I think she means the third ascent Pete !
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 15, 2011 - 01:39am PT
Well I'm trying to get this lingo down - guess I still don't have it. Oh well! hahaha

TA = Whoops!!! =just realized what everyone will think, OMG! LOLOLOL

Delirious!
And can't quite get over the feat of the Pirate and his lady.

TA = Third Ascent

Any takers?!?!?!
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 15, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
Link to forum in UK following the story somewhat.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=466754
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jul 15, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
Haha!!!!

check out fish's post on the UKC thread.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 15, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
^^^^^ Russ sure has a sense of humor
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 15, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
Never! She prefers specialty hard cider that's imported and actually, both prefer Sierra Nevada Torpedo. Just difficult to manage glass bottles on the wall!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 16, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Sez who? I would never climb El Cap without two or three bottles of fine California wine. I have never had any break yet, either.

Where and how are they? This is truly an historic moment. When do we get the juicy news?? I'm away fishin' with my son again this weekend.
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
Jul 16, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
I know wish Ansel Evans was around to document this!
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 16, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
A BIG congratulations to the first and second ascent teams!
Peace
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 16, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Well, I guess now we know why Pete pressed so hard for details of the climb. Sycophants write press releases, but its not journalism.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 16, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
Possible that what Pete wrote was edited or added to.

Anyway, the last Harry Potter movie opens this weekend, so there are undoubtedly dementors in the air, and other strange creatures abroad.
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Jul 17, 2011 - 12:23am PT
It's possible that Pete may have jumped the gun by publishing this before the second ascent team returns and offers their first hand observations, but he seems to have done to have a good job of summarizing the essential known facts of both the route and the controversy surrounding it.

He is one of the few people actually qualified to have an opinion about it, being one of the very, very people to actually put hook to stone and see firsthand what all the fuss was about.

Six years before the FA, I spent a number of days gazing across and down the Great Slab from the Dihedral Wall. As steep and featureless as it looked , it seemed that it was only a matter of time before someone with the right combination of skill and perseverance would attempt to climb such a unique and prominent feature of El Cap.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 17, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
My point is that Pete is a partisan in this mess on ST, his report is as slanted towards his perspective as Mimi's would be if she wrote the press release for R&I. It would be better is someone without an entrenched position wrote the report (there are a number of possibilities online here) or better yet if it waited and Ammon wrote his own story. This was sort of like having Paul Wolfowitz writing about our achievements in Iraq.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but partisan entertainers passing themselves off as journalists have really eroded people's understanding of what reporting and journalism really are.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 17, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
As a devoted partisan I agree - it would have been better to just wait for Ammon and Kait's TR...
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
Yeah that press statement might be a bit premature. They've been scooped, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

Are we sure there will be a significant TR, much beyond what we've gleaned third hand? Pretty sure I'm not the only one who hopes so.

What's Ammon and Kate's status anyways? Are they done w/ Aquarian? Back in the horizontal world??
Mega congrats to them regardless.


Prod

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
So we can talk about WoS ad nauseum here, but posting info on other sites is off limits. I just gotta make sure I know the rules.

So what if Pete is excited, he is excitable, I think his report was fair and balanced. Way more so than Fox news...

Prod.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
whatever your own perspective on the issue, and whatever you may think of WoS or of R&I or of Pedro-

the real point is that R&I have made complete fools of themselves by having PTHP write a "press release" for them on this topic.


1) no secret he is these guys' greatest advocate
2) no secret (at least in past ST threads on WoS) that their collective shared religious beliefs are a big part of that
3) no secret that the actual climbers can tell their own tale soon enough





i personally find it kinda ironic that pedro has had so much flack online (for likin him some little girls and for bein overtly smarmy about it- at best), and then apparently he found some god, and then he simply refused to confirm or deny anything specific, and then he just out-typed everyone and out-waited everyone, until people apparently just got bored silly of talking about it, and just moved on.

in a way, the WoS thing is the same.
people from the era of the FA have generally moved on.

now the discussion online involves a new generation who just "have heard" this or that about whatever did or did not happen, and why or why not.


as for pete's "press release"-
it's at best "quite tilted" to what his views have long been.

didn't he say kevin thaw's group was repelled by difficulty?
(didn't i see up thread that they were repelled after like 5 pitches, in an attempt to do the rig in a day ?)




whatever.
history belongs to those who write it.


probably never be a 3rd ascent, regardless of what ammon and kait write after the 2nd.

fo me, that's as much the story as anything else.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
I thought the bit about Slater and Thaw in that release was a bit disingenuous, as those guys were trying to repeat it in a day? Or at the very least less than 40 days? I lost track of some of the 'facts' in the WoS saga, but didn't those guys get like 5 pitches up this 8 pitch route in one day?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 17, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
i think he simply forgot to write:

"few if any climbers from any era seem to be all that enthused by the line itself, or the type of climbing dictated by the blank low angle terrain, and as a result, an absence of real data of any kind has left people arguing over unknowns for decades. the few parties who've started the climb have not completed it, perhaps due to difficulty, perhaps due to a loss of interest, it's hard to say without them telling..."
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Jul 17, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Quite simply the "story" was Ammon's and Kait's to tell and release. Letting the climbing world know that WOS had been repeated could have waited a few days until K & A got back to level ground. Etiquette would seem to have dictated that. But it is what it is..... Kait and Ammon should be down Monday or Tuesday. Knowing the two of them quite well I am sure a very detailed TR will be in the works. They are both exhausted and I am sure will need some recoup time after the climb. I, for one, am quite proud of them and congratulate them wholeheartedly!
BrentA

Gym climber
Roca Rojo
Jul 17, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
Been waiting for the days when climbing came with cheerleaders...

wait no longer!
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
Agree with alot of what Pete wrote, agree with what Tarz says should have been added, and then there are the recondite issues...
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 17, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
...people from the era of the FA have generally moved on...

Well, I'd say the threads here call bullshit on that one. I'd also say the boys deserve a long overdue objective opinion and I'd say they are about to get one...
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 17, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
Thank you Rudder for your diagram!
It's ethical and legit.

As some of you have said and as I responded a week ago to an email from Pete -
The story is for Ammon and Kait to share. They lived it, and 29 years ago the FA's made it.
So, only those 4 who have successfully climbed WoS have a right to report on it.

And you know what - sometimes cheerleaders are needed in this world. And, honestly, I can't believe I just wrote that! Only those who know me will understand my sentiments. ; )

I would love to write more tidbits for you all from my two turtles, but feel less than safe doing so now. Talk about the paparazzi! Who'd have thunk that the climbing world has their share too?

Ciao from the #1Mama
It's been real!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 17, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
Great Rudder! Funny, ironic, and sobering and rather definitive. I would have put some emphasis on the religious differences and that our very own Richard put out a SDA oriented book on the ascent and lectured to tens of thousands soon after. There is also the follow up chart to do of Richard's very uncomfortable, difficult life afterwards.
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Jul 18, 2011 - 12:33am PT
The pirate and his lady are down!

It's been fun!

Thanks for letting a mama post! I've had a blast!
Now it's time to hear from the real characters.

At long last -
Over and out,
#1SuperMama
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 18, 2011 - 12:38am PT
And THANK YOU!!! # 1 SUPER MAMA!!!

This has been most interesting and I greatly appreciate your posting.

History! This is now all------very interesting-----history!
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2011 - 01:17am PT
Funny how things work out, Eh Pete? Years ago they were a couple of liars. Great Climbers Now, Eh. What a bunch of Prime Donna Mother f*#kers this site is full of.
Mark and Richard rule!! Because they have Balls. Period .

Dogtown.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 18, 2011 - 02:23am PT
There is also the follow up chart to do of Richard's very uncomfortable, difficult life afterwards.

Hi Peter! I've been on the internet since, well?, me and Al Gore invented it. lol I've seen threads change from discussions about technical, mechanical, ethical, spiritual, or other issues... into discussions of the thread participants personal lives. I've never thought it was a good thing. And, in this case, I'm way more interested in "climbing." What has been at issue since fixed protection was first implemented is IF it should be used at all, WHAT routes merit its use, and to WHAT extent its use is acceptable. It has been a mixed blessing (some would say a pandora's box) since day one. Interestingly, alot of young climbers I talk with don't even see the controversy. But, if you can put up a bolt, you can attach a channel to that bolt, and an elevator to that channel. It's a slippery slope from the get go.

Even climbers that are not interested in tradition, ethics, and style probably don't want all the climbing walls to end up like this:
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jul 18, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
Congrats Ammon. Saw your smiling summit shots on FB. Can't wait for the full report. You're beyond the real deal. Keep sending brutha.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
SWEET!!!!!!!!

Awesome Pic!

Cheers,

Prod.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
^^^^

LoL!!!

Important not to take any of this stuff too seriously. Even if it can kill you.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
"Powerful Spiritual Odyssey" defined at last.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
Congrats,
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 18, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! GREAT PHOTO!!!
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Jul 18, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
That may be one of the most hilarious photos on ST
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 18, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
aaaaaaand there ya' have it!!

Thanks for the "summation",ECP, intended, or knot.

A.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:23pm PT

"Preliminary reports now suggest Smith and Jensen told the truth about everything, including the 15 or so “micro-enhancements” they made to avoid drilling rivets."

WRONG!!!

Pete, thanks for stepping on my toes on this one. Maybe you should stick with what you know... not assume.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Ammon, forget about SuperTopo. You should sell your story and photos to one of the rags. Doesn't matter what you report. They'd lap it up.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:29pm PT

Exactly what I'm working on MH. Cheers!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
You don't have to spill it all here, just give us a few tasty tidbits.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
Whichever buys the story, I'd guess it will first appear on line, that is fairly soon. Sounds like R & I at least is interested.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 18, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
"Preliminary reports now suggest Smith and Jensen told the truth about everything, including the 15 or so “micro-enhancements” they made to avoid drilling rivets."

WRONG!!!


Sweet! A twist to the story! This is most excellent!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
By an odd twist of fate, I really am eating popcorn right now
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Dingus gets the coveted post#1096!


Hey even basementeers gotta eat...

Besides 10 miles away at Deto, it's over a hundred degrees.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
True Dingus, but being upside down
isn't always that bad......
WBraun

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
Ammon should say nothing about the climb.

NOTHING

That way this stupid internet wanking will go on for another 30 years untill they're all dead ......
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Werner, I remember clearly your cautioning in regards to speculation back in the day. Loved the way you would enunciate each syllable of "speculation". Your wise words have influenced me well over the years.

Looks like we'll need a lot of popcorn before Ammon tells his tales!

cheers
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
Hopefully no poopcorn.
Gene

climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
Somebody has been busy with the climbing press.

http://rockandice.com/news/1513-el-cap-slanderfest-finally-put-to-bed

This was written prior to Ammon and Kait topping out.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
Hey Gene,

Get with it, that was posted a few days back.

Prod.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
Hey, Ammon.........WOOT!!
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
Seems, if memory serves me correctly, that some people here owe Ammon some money and a LOT of alcohol... Maybe someone should go back and tally that up. I seem to remember it being near a couple thousand. Just sayin...

Proud send Bro! Sorry I wasn't there. Work sucks ASS! But, not as much as homelessness.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
Sometimes, homelessness rules. Just sometimes.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Jul 18, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
Captain - OK, really it was the difference between $14K and about $900.00 a month in residual income, plus a percentage of a company. I've had to make a LOT of sacrifices for this project, but when finished, can climb at will again. :) Ammon was forgiving/understanding.

I *was* pretty bummed tho, as we'd been planning this for years now and just hadn't been able to synch schedules. We'd even both fixed the first pitch(es) separately, in attempts to get off the ground. But, that's life, eh?

I'm psyched for he and Kait!
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 18, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
Ron Anderson said:
this will be talked of thirty to fourty years from now, much like the WOEML was talked about. Wonder what climbing will be like then?

when will the next "great" controversy take place, and where?

Good analogy, because who really cares deeply about the whole WOEML debacle anyway, aside from a good historical tempest in a teapot?
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jul 18, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Hey Ammon,

was that photo staged or did you guys actually drag that book up the wall for inspiration and spiritual enhancement?

did I say enhancement? hehe

GOod job, can't wait to read all about it!
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
Does Ammon really get to collect the brews and cash if he doesn't post a TR? Just curious...
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
Link to the Bounty Thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=966435&tn=120#msg1557227

Payments can be excepted through paypal to ammonmcneely@yahoo.com or personal message me for home address. We will gladly accept checks in the mail.

https://www.paypal.com/

To the folks who owe the grog - IPA is Ammon's favorite brew & mine is dry english cider!

Thanks Couchmaster! You rock!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
Congrats Ammon & Kait! Take all the time you need. Get it right and positioned correctly.
I've been wondering about this since the colonel and I climbed Aquarius as our first el Cap route and watched the "window washers" as their ledges occupied the same part of the wall during our one week ascent. The last day we saw them they were packing up to haul.

After 29 years I can wait a few more months. The exchange between the two parties will be mind enhancing as well.

How many thousand more posts will we see see on this?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 18, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
Pete Pete Pete,
That was a really big blunder,
Now it's your ass, Ammon should plunder.
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Jul 18, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
Now it's your ass, Ammon should plunder.

I don't think Ammon has any desire to plunder Pete's ass!
Offset

climber
seattle
Jul 18, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
TR?
pc

climber
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:00am PT
WoS!!! So much entertainment!!!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:37am PT
Steve was gonna climb it. He said so and everything.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:54am PT
well he could hardly have done less a masterful job than you, or did i have that wrong?
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:05am PT
It seems to me, that there is a humongous difference between:

Trying something and failing

And

Saying you are going to try something, yet never trying
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:14am PT
Ouch. That smarts. Coming from Matt, of all people.

Who cannot even find his shift key, let alone El Cap.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:25am PT
oh crap don't piss me off or i'll hafta post up some emails i got back in the day from an ex of yours, a chick to whom you gave "the gift that keeps on giving"...










and i think you know what i'm talkin about, dontchya?






edit- ... a woman who wrote to encourage me to heckle you continuously, and wrote all about the many odd things she experienced before she dumped you.

(just sayin)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:33am PT
"oh crap don't piss me off"

Matt,

In case you forgot, you short-ass Napoleonic complex little f*#ker, she retracted it all since it was lies she made up to make me look bad, because she is a very sweet lady who really loved me a lot, and was hurt that our relationship didn't work out. She and I remain friends. However before she deleted her profile here, and the posts she made, I kept screenshots of her retractions and her apologies.

That you would post personal emails from a hurt lady is appalling.

You little dipshit piece of sh#t. Clearly your brain is as small as your stature, or you would recall this.

F*#k you. See you on the bridge, you pathetic little microbe short-ass motherf*#ker.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:40am PT
I wish we could refrain from the personal stuff.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:43am PT
It's a small Valley, sometimes. Too small.
BTDT.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:45am PT
oh really?
want me to post the email she sent me saying the semi-retractions were just because you terrify her and she was worried about how you might retaliate?

kinda makes her retractions ring hollow...



edit-
btw, you might be surprised to see the emails i can dig up that people you know have sent me to encourage me heckling you, wanna see them posted?


i kinda think you are the microbe, and i can post up...


keep talkin.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:46am PT
Damn, Matt. Chill out son.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:47am PT
Wish there were moderators that could delete this personal stuff.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:50am PT
I feel dirty just eating my popcorn...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:53am PT
hey matt, Does that make you a big man to throw sh#t around like that, knowing it is indefensible? Wow, really has allot to do with the subject matter here. Grow up a-hole.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:54am PT
I've been doing a lot of research and interviews the last couple days, and I have found some AMAZING stuff about the WoS story that will make you guys' heads spin, if only I am allowed to print it. It was told to me confidentially and off the record, and so I can't repeat it. I was simultaneously shaking my head in disbelief, so incredible is it that such things actually happened, and laughing so hard the tears were rolling down my cheeks.

I've demo'd about ten bags of popcorn already today, and it's not even over yet. I know stuff. I am trying to negotiate its release!

Stay tuned, because the Wings of Steel story has only been partially revealed. And the stuff you haven't read is certainly some of the best!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:54am PT
Did someone take a slight detour from the posting while drunk thread?

Ahhhh life is good.

taco makes it better

Climbing and the climbing world is a stupid way to prove your worth.

But it's entertaining watching people try.

This thread delivers!



Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:56am PT
In a train wreck sort of way....
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:01am PT
Good work on the summary on the Rock & Ice site, Pete.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:11am PT
And nobody knows why. ;-)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:20am PT
Thanks, Clint.

I'm working on interviewing as many people as possible who were actually there during the first ascent of Wings of Steel, so if you were there, and would like to share your recollections, please contact me through this website.

I plan on contacting everyone I can find who was there - supporters, detractors, observers - to try to get a feel of what they saw, what they thought and felt, and how the whole thing went down. I'm particularly interested in how people's opionions may have changed or mellowed through the years, and why.

And I am really trying to find more than the one single person I have who has issued an apology. [good luck on that one, eh?]
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:37am PT
Good luck PtPP,

Don't forget to track down the serial number of the engine in the airplane that was flying overhead when they topped out ;-P
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:58am PT
Gotta admit, Pete, I'm pretty much just interested in the observations, perspectives, experiences, and opinions of people who have been on the route. Everyone else's rant says more about them than the route or the boys.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 19, 2011 - 03:16am PT
The route is important, for sure, fundamental even. But it's only part of the story. The more compelling parts of the story is the way Richard and Mark were treated.

All you need to do is walk to the base with a pair of binoculars to see that the route isn't over-bolted. But why did nobody do this? Why was the response to them climbing it so severe and nasty?

And even more interesting, how and why did the character assasination continue for so long, or at least until 2005 when a few people here on McTopo decided to give those guys at least the benefit of the doubt?

And why do some of these attitudes persist even now? What am I missing? Is there something we don't know? And Healey above is absolutely right - the way the characters react says far more about them than the words they use.

What you guys seem to be overlooking, or forgetting perhaps, is that Mark and Richard have endured arguably the largest smear campaign in the history of climbing. These guys have been portrayed basically as criminals for the last quarter-century, and it was essentially undeserved, so far as I can see! The only other story that comes close is that of Caesar Maestri, but it's not a smear campaign if it's true - and all evidence supports that Maestri did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre, but lied about doing so.

This isn't just a climb story, it's a people story. And we have assembled here the greatest cast of characters - heros, villains, and everyone in between - ever seen. Sorry, that sounds hackneyed, I am not at my best so late at night.

But man oh man oh man I wish I could share the stuff I learned today - holy frig, you would knott believe it! Bloody amazing. I'll do my best. Gotta "work" my sources a bit more. ;)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2011 - 03:47am PT
Regardless of all the he said - she said minutiae and bad behavior surrounding WOS, I think it was a big catalyst in the 80's North American shift to sport climbing.

Really? Man, that seems like just an enormous stretch to me...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2011 - 05:11am PT
Everyone has their own take on things I suppose, but to be honest I really can't go with you on this and I have a somewhat different take on it.

Pre-sport there was no option - you wanted to climb - you led on gear. My perception in the mid-70s was that about 5-10% of people were artisans with pro, another 35-40% or so were competent, and the rest were always nervous. My contention would be that there was a ready-made and heavily pent-up demand just waiting for sport climbing.

Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 19, 2011 - 05:34am PT
I think you're on to something, Joe
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jul 19, 2011 - 07:22am PT
This just keeps getting more and more absurd.

Defining moment of the era? Is this how history gets rewritten? Someone with a passionate personal cause simply sounding out all the rest?

There was a lot more going on in the 80's than this sideshow. Two guys risking 30' whippers onto bolts on less-than-vertical rock suddenly becoming more momentous than all the other wild endeavours going on at the time?

hmm...

I would recommend Paul Pritchard's Deep Play for insight into the 1980's climbing mind set, though this is for the British scene, he captures the era the best of any writer.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jul 19, 2011 - 08:28am PT
Deuce, I don't think these people realize there is climbing outside of Yosemite.
local1

climber
CH
Jul 19, 2011 - 08:59am PT
PtPP

"What you guys seem to be overlooking, or forgetting perhaps, is that Mark and Richard have endured arguably the largest smear campaign in the history of climbing. These guys have been portrayed basically as criminals for the last quarter-century, and it was essentially undeserved, so far as I can see! The only other story that comes close is that of Caesar Maestri, but it's not a smear campaign if it's true - and all evidence supports that Maestri did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre, but lied about doing so"

There is a lot more of history like that. See for example the campaign about Claudio Corti and Stefano Longhi 1957 (Eigernordwand) - there was a more then just rumours about murder of two others - or the expedition to the Nanga Parbat 1970 where Messner lost his brother or Walter Bonatti on the K2 1954 etc. So I would be careful about saying, that this is a outstanding story - but I am not a publisher ;-) And. there is not just climbing in the Valley, u know? ;-)
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 19, 2011 - 09:05am PT
I'm just curious: Why has this thread become about PTPTP's personal agenda?

I thought it was about WOS?

NTTAWWI
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 19, 2011 - 10:27am PT
Love the morning WoS fix . . .

Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.

I'd have to disagree with the above based on my experiences as someone who started climbing in the early 90s in Colo Front Range. The "sport climbs" in existence around here all seemed to be very difficult, somewhat runout by modern standards, and not really approachable to newbs. The bolt-every-few-feet, really 5.7 but call it 5.10, stuff came later, at least around here.

Changing gears:
PTPP--I'd sort of like to be on your side in your feud with Matt, but anti-short-person stuff gets a little tiresome, at least to my 5' self. I've seen plenty of tall wimps, short baddasses, and vice versa, and not sure why you focus on someone's height in your feuding.
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
Some excellent (at times) remedial reading:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=850502&tn=40
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
Regardless of all the he said - she said minutiae and bad behavior surrounding WOS, I think it was a big catalyst in the 80's North American shift to sport climbing.

OK...

Perhaps there is some tiny thread connecting these.

Mark and Richard established a number of serious and difficult aid routes at the Riverside Quarry prior to the WOS FA. By all accounts, they were pretty accomplished at hard aid.

Many years after the area fell into obscurity, the Riverside Quarry became a popular sport climbing area (largely due to the efforts of Louie Anderson).

Is there a connection?

Not really.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
It was about their faith, plain and simple.

If they would have been seen getting sh#t faced drunk in the mt. room bar every other night, or had some decent bud, or were lookin to score some then they would have been excepted with no questions asked. I spent years(off & on)in C4, and that's the bottom line, the primary issue...plain & simple.

From an outsiders perspective (I was 3 when WoS went up) this seems like a pretty concise summation.
Yes, they were Valley outsiders, but more importantly, they were weirdo-Christian sect Valley outsiders, which made whatever they were doing un-acceptable to many.
WBraun

climber
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
bergbryce

I was 3 when WoS went up

That means you have no clue ......

A lot of the anti rap bolt crowd was also non locals.

The biggest and most predominate valley anti rap bolter was Bachar.

The guy with the balls to go against him and start the revolution was Ron Kauk, a valley local.

There's a ton more.

Get a life people ......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 19, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
Thanks Couchmaster! You rock!
You're welcome Kaitb, the pleasure is all mine!

Ammons pic almost had me spraying coffee on my monitor, worthy of a repost!




Lastly, Werner, thanks for all the wisdom over the years.
Werners and Merrys dog

ps, has anyone preordered the next book yet? I hear that the working title is "Wings Of Steel part 2 : THE SH#T CONTINUES"

LOL! thanks all! (PS, per Werners suggestion, lighten up everyone)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.
I'd have to disagree with the above based on my experiences as someone who started climbing in the early 90s in Colo Front Range. The "sport climbs" in existence around here all seemed to be very difficult, somewhat runout by modern standards, and not really approachable to newbs. The bolt-every-few-feet, really 5.7 but call it 5.10, stuff came later, at least around here.

I didn't say the initial rush was about noobs, but instant crossovers from trad where I said they were nervous, not pussies - if they were they wouldn't have been climbing at all back then, but they at least were still sucking it up, dealing, and getting out. That's the deal, prior to sport there was a relatively high bar to climbing and you either sucked it up and dealt with leading on gear or you were out of climbing almost before you started; it definitely wasn't for everyone. If the data were available I bet you could plot the growth of the demographic against the average bolt density / spacing and they'd lay over each other like a glove.

And WoS influencing the transition to sport in any way? I think you guys overestimate the Valley's influence. Eldo, the Gunks, NC, Smith, and any other number of places were microcosms unto themselves and WoS never rose above the level of an amusing sideshow at best. The French v. Smith locals, Bachar v. Kauk? Now those had people sitting up taking notice by comparison.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 19, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Healyjoe, are you talking about nervous pussies again? Its ok dude, its ok. I'm glad an authority on the subject can elaborate on this little known problem.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 19, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
Hey Couch,

Do you know the person Werner is talking to in the second picture. Looks like an old friend of mine.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 19, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
Joe is full of sh#t once again. The high bar of the good old days before spurt is just so much BS
In the good old days before spurt we had shoulder stands to get past those pesky bouldery cruxes, we had gobbs of easy routs where you could find most of the climbers weather it be Baxter Pinnacle, Chapple Pond Slab, High Exposure, The Flat Irons, standard rout on White Horse, Thin Air Old Man's rout, All those wiissner routs, etc Etc, Etc where you could find 95% of the climbers. A very few climbed harder routs.

Now thanks to feckin spurt climbers we have to pull the rope after every fall for our FA to count. back in the good old days you could lower from your high point and your partner could tie in and enjoy a TR to the high point gear, climb through and you still got the FFA. also thanks to feckin spurt climbers makeing eveyone train hard you have to wait in line on feckin 10's instead of just 5.5 and 5.6 like the good old days AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG..

PS. When I say Joe is full of sh#t I am refering to his ultra rigid interpretation of trad climbing and underlying resentment of sport climbing.

It's all spurt climbers fault :)
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 19, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
Piss on me pile...... I was just told another nick name you have is "The Canadian ASSassin" and Pedophile Pete. Maybe you should interview yourself while drinking a hot cup of shut the f*#k up and let Ammon and KAIT speak.

Write about something you know about..... Like child porn???
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 19, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
StahlBro said: Hey Couch,

Do you know the person Werner is talking to in the second picture. Looks like an old friend of mine.

Yes I do. I'm proud to know him. Real good guy, honest and extremely smart, very strong and technically proficient climber - for an older guy I mean. LOL): name is Andrew Trzynka. In the pic Werner and Merry had come over to do a lap on Sacherer Cracker and we talked after we'd gotten down. In this pic they are talking about some earlier collaboration or discussions they'd earlier had on some electronic thing. Andrew had designed and built an LED light a long time before I'd seen a commercial one made, maybe that was the talk dejour, but I don't remember: as I understand Werner is a pretty quick study on that kind of stuff too.

My only complaint on Andrew is that we don't climb together enough, this is my bad as I'm generally to lazy to call folks. But we've been climbing on and off some for maybe slightly less than 30 years, I've had nothing but great days with Andrew. He's the kind of guy that makes it seem sunny and fun even when the rain is pouring down.....

Is this the person you think he is? Need an email?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 20, 2011 - 01:34am PT
Looking at it another way, Wings of Steel may be one of the longest-lasting routes on El Capitan, if not Yosemite. Or at least the feature it's on will be long-lasting. The Great Slab is a somewhat monolithic feature, with fractured rock to both sides and above. That rock also protrudes - the Great Slab is sort of an 'interior' feature, somewhat like the lower part of the Nose. So when all those fractured things have crashed down, along with the related routes, the slab will still be there. Of course, it may take a little while, and cause more than a few enhancements along the way, and erase the bolts. Plus the rock piling up at the bottom will make it shorter. But long after the Nose, the Salathe, the Dihedral and all those other temporary routes crack off and plunge, Wings of Steel will still be visibly there.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Thanks Couchmaster. Not the guy I was thinking of, but sounds like a great person. Great picture. Cheers.
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Jul 20, 2011 - 01:48am PT
Is this the part where all the old haters turn on each other?....lol


Good Job Ammon!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:05am PT
I thought warblers could only warble.
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:37am PT
I too was in the Valley at the time and took the popular position of (how could they do such a thing.) Now after so many years and ethics that we all new so well have changed, rape bolting, so called sport climbing all common place now. I feel one can only stand by ones own ethics and not judge others. Climb by your own standers. Climb for yourself instead of impressing others. This is all most impossible to do. Because of the” A” personality most of us are. That being said Mark and Richard do Climb for themselves. Their mistake was to try to explain it all to us so they mite fit in. Which is impossible because their a couple of f*#king dorks! Truly.

But Great Climber. No BullShit!!!

Daug.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:49am PT
i always feel that one thing gets lost in these protracted "WoS is a PoS" debates on stupidtopo-


the protective, locals regulate, higher ethics vibe of YV bitd served a purpose.



what if in fact, these fellas came in and were, in fact drilling a ladder, like in an amusement park.

who would stop it?
who would have stopped it?


the mechanism for enforcing the defacto regulation was quite informal, and yet it served to hold YV to a higher standard as sport climbing grew in acceptance, as rap bolting became common, etc.

YV (and TM) is/are special for the character they hold, for the pure and natural feel of the climbing itself, as is dictated by the weaknesses in the rock, which afford NATURAL protection...




so why, if the goal of the informal, unstructured, defacto mechanism was to hold YV to the higher standard, to maintain the character of the place, of the climbs, of the stone itself, why is it the fault of the mechanism itself?

where is the "mea cupa" of these men, who just point fingers at everyone who "mistreated them" so? what about their half of the interaction?

why is the debate always around the actions of the people who sought to protect the character of the stone, of the valley itself?

if you read this thread, you might think these guys were persecuted because they are religious... maybe they were persecuted because they didn't give a rats ass about the culture of the place? maybe that culture served a valuable purpose, one that we are all still reaping the benefits of?

what if everyone in YV bitd had just been cool with everyone else, anyone else, cruising into town and doing whatever they wanted, where ever they wanted, however they wanted? what would YV be known for? how would the climbing stand out now?

so it's just such a horrible thing that these poor way-ahead-of-their-time-slab-hook-master guys got their ropes poopoo'd on, and got talked down to, and it's such a shame that they never got credit for a hard FA...


but in your life-
in the REAL world-
how often do you really see a f*#ked up situation that's all just one side of the story being f*#ked up? how often do you see disfunction without significant co-disfunction? i think rarely is that the case.



there is a cost to an absence of regulation.
(regardless of what the tea party may try to sell you)

is there a cost to regulation? sure, i agree, there may be.
but in the end, is that cost worthwhile? i'd argue that yes, it is.

did these guy pay a price? perhaps.
could they have mitigated it by understanding, even respecting the culture, the mechanism by which the resource (the stone, the valley itself) was regulated?




i guess i wish some more people would ask that question.


pretty easy to blame sophomoric acts and the "locals" in retrospect, especially if you get to tell the story in your own terms (sure looking fwd to pete's tell-all expose'- not!)


go ahead and show up now at an active, productive, high level climbing area anywhere in the US, make no effort (or no successful effort) to know or understand the local values or traditions, or to weave yourself into the local community of climbers or route developers, and then set out to put up a route in some kinda style, on some kinda terrain, that is not what people in that area expect to see.

good luck!




















(and go ahead, blame the locals for how they react to you, that's far easier that the alternatives)

















YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME






Aamon y Kait can have their say, more power to them.
At the end of the day, they are rad, and whatever they say will be what some climbers in 2011 thought of their 2nd ascent.





THAT IN NO WAY CHANGES WHAT THE CLIMBERS IN THE VALLEY THOUGHT AT THE TIME OF THE FA!!!!!

What's done is done.
What's past is past.

The best you can get now is some sort of "if it was done today" comment.
History cannot be rewritten by those who do not like it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:13am PT
History cannot be rewritten by those who do not like it.

I don't know, in this particular case it seems to me a whole passel of history was rewritten by those who did not like it and who had no direct personal knowledge of the route whatsoever.

The best you can get now is some sort of "if it was done today" comment.

Actually, the best we can get now is the opinion of a couple of people who have actually climbed the route and can finally speak objectively to the truth of the matter after all these years.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 20, 2011 - 10:08am PT
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jul 20, 2011 - 10:28am PT
it seems like the proliferation of bolts on el cap has been going on for a long time. bolts added to belays, added to leads, now added by the boat load to make it go FREE. Where is the outrage for all these new free routes with many bolts added?

The nose is a good example, many many bolts have been add over the years, most recent times for the first free ascent. same for Salathe and now half dome.

is their crime that they drilled holes to put hooks in? or the fact that they took a "blank" wall and put up a line. HArding did that and was lam blasted by Royal and the lot, until Royal went to do the route, chopped some and discovered the route was legit and stopped chopping.

Second ascent will confirm the route and style.

as one who was busted for a power drill, i can say first hand how the hypocrisy feels like when your under the micro scope. bolts here are ok, but not there. power drill is ok but not in wilderness, el cap is wilderness? it goes on and on..
WBraun

climber
Jul 20, 2011 - 11:12am PT
The kid

Weren't you busted only because you were using a power drill that was illegal.

And ... you guys were reported to NPS by a climber and that's how NPS got into the picture.

So it was some pissed off climber who ratted you out .....
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 20, 2011 - 11:20am PT
Is this the microenhancement the FA is admitting to?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 20, 2011 - 11:27am PT
This deserves a repost, fer shure:




Bitchen work A & K.


Hell, let me have the pleasure of buying y'all some beers, I'd be honored.
Starman

Trad climber
Sterling, MA
Jul 20, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Walleye said:
6 years, three months ago, was this question by the OP.

"Has Wings of Steel ever seen a repeat?"

YES!

Well, I guess that puts an end to this thread, no?

(Insert uncontrollable, belly-busting laughter here!)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Yes indeed, and a proud repeat it was!

Do knott forget to send plunder to yer pirate and his lassy!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/966435/Official-WoS-Bounty-Thread
WBraun

climber
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Coz

It was a member of the rescue team who ratted us out.

WOW!

I never knew it was one of the sar guys.

That sucks.

I don't believe in the blanket ban of power drills because there's a lot of responsible users verses the oddball one or two idiots who ruined it for everyone else.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 20, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
"Funny how we don't hear from the shitters themselves."

I am working on this....
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
Work harder!!!
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
Pete, why are you involved in this? You couldn't even get up the first pitch WITH a top-rope. Why don't you STAND DOWN and let someone who has actually been up there take the reins.

Your taking advantage of someone else's (Kait and my) hard work. Face it, you wouldn’t have a story if there was no 2nd ascent.

Go work on your own project.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
Yeah Ammon! You and Kait rock. When are you guys coming out this way?
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
Wings of Steel--The PTPP Story

I can't wait for the book!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
PTPTP took ownership of this when he issued his press release.


<chuckle>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Why don't you STAND DOWN and let someone who has actually been up there take the reins.

Pete, that's a direct request from the SA party and you ought to honor it.

There's been more than enough bullshit published by people who haven't done the route - the best thing you could do at this point is restrain yourself and leave the whole affair to Ammon and Kait to report on as they are the only ones qualified to do so at this point.

Please drop your attempt at a WoS story.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 20, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
I Love how rock-climbing is all about various territorial rights, conforming to idiosyncratic tribal customs, and gaining the power to control other peoples actions via the popularity contest. Kinda feels reminiscent of something... Oh yeah puberty and school.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California

Jul 20, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
Pete, why are you involved in this? You couldn't even get up the first pitch WITH a top-rope. Why don't you STAND DOWN and let someone who has actually been up there take the reins.

Your taking advantage of someone else's (Kait and my) hard work. Face it, you wouldn’t have a story if there was no 2nd ascent.

Go work on your own project.

???

In my opinion, no matter how incredibly awesome the second ascent of WOS is (and I think it is!), I'm not seeing how this gives the climbers ownership of this story. There are literally thousands of posts spread over years on this forum, and I enjoy hearing Pete's input very much. Having said that, I can see that the story on Rock and Ice would have been best posted by the second ascent team. Anyway, Pete, please keep posting...the more the merrier!
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
http://rockandice.com/component/content/article/37-tnb/1519-tnb-slander-slabs

Everyone is getting in on the fun.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Jul 19, 2011 - 02:11am PT
Everyone has their own take on things I suppose, but to be honest I really can't go with you on this and I have a somewhat different take on it.

Pre-sport there was no option - you wanted to climb - you led on gear. My perception in the mid-70s was that about 5-10% of people were artisans with pro, another 35-40% or so were competent, and the rest were always nervous. My contention would be that there was a ready-made and heavily pent-up demand just waiting for sport climbing.

Yeah, you can claim it was all about the miracle and potential for 5.12 and above climbing and movement, but you'll excuse me if I can't help but suspect the out-of-the-gate popularity was way more about all those folks who were always nervous about leading on gear than about the potential for great advances in climbing.



Very astute Ed.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Perhaps Pete has been possessed by the spirit of Dirty Rupert VoldeMurdoch, and is doing everything he can to manufacture a story, even if he hasn't spoken first hand to Ammon and Kait. Tapping into their cell phones, impersonating them to get information, blagging, and so on. :-)

Pete may be able to intelligently comment once the facts are public, but until then it's mostly speculation. Sure, he may come up with some tasty tidbits, e.g. about the history of the route, and who the poopers were in 1982. But the only thing that matters at this point is a first-person account as to what was done and seen, and what can be inferred from it. And short of an interview with Ammon, Pete can't provide that. He has every right to say whatever he wants. It might be entertaining, even a bit informative. Once the facts are in, Pete has enough El Cap experience, and even WoS experience, to validly comment. But it's mostly hot air at this point, and maybe a bit of opportunism.

I'd much rather have it from the pirate's mouth. Assuming that he has reasonable writing skills, I'm sure he can tell the story himself.

This reminds me a bit of First Nations here, who sometimes assert that they 'own' stories, especially about things important to their cultures, histories, and beliefs. To the point that sometimes only one or two persons in a group know or are permitted to recount a story, and it can't be recorded or repeated.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 20, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
So PTPP hacked A & K's phones?

Where is the pie?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 20, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
Hey guys,

Duane Raleigh asked me to write a feature article for Rock & Ice Magazine about Wings of Steel - its history, its characters, the slander and character assasination, and maybe even some truth! - the whole nine yards, because: 1)He and I have a long-standing relationship from when I wrote my Dr. Piton columns with the magazine, 2)I have been involved with Wings of Steel since 2005 when I was one of the first to give Mark and Richard the benefit of the doubt, 3)I have continued my research over the years and am extemely well-versed 4) Mostly because I'm a damn good writer. It certainly doesn't have much to do with my [in]ability to climb the route! What you will end up reading I hope will be exhaustive and worthy.

I don't really have anything to do with or to say about the second ascent as that is entirely Kait's and Ammon's story to tell. I know that the mag is interested in getting the Second Ascent story, and will pay for it and especially for photos.

I don't have any photos to share. Mark and Richard are providing photos. I hope Randy has a few he can share.

Duane also asked me to write the press release immediately in order to provide advance publicity for the upcoming article. It was certainly not my intention to step on anyone's toes, and I did apologize to Kait via instant message yesterday for hurting her feelings.

I hope that together we can put together a damn fine article for you-all to read - my research into the past and present, and Ammon and Kait's story of the second ascent.

Ultimately, however, I submit to the authority of my boss and editor.

Cheers,
Pete
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 20, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
Coz, you said:
Time Mimi, SG and Pete stand down.

I don't believe Steve has had anything more to say on the matter since January, and Mimi has mostly been talking about the fecal incident since Ammon & Kait's ascent began, so it seems like they've already stood down without any instruction from anyone. Did you just want to include them so it didn't seem like you were being unfair to Pete?
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
... to write a feature article for Rock & Ice Magazine about Wings of Steel...

What about Climbing Magazine? Or Playboy, so I can legitimately say I read something in that rag?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 20, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
Like it or not PTPP is a member of the press and can write any damn story he wants or his editors want regardless of what you guys think he should be allowed to report on. telling the press to shut up usually does not work......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 20, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
He may well be getting an ass kicking but that sure has not stopped Faux news from spewing every day........
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 20, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
What, Mimi hasn't said a thing on the subject in 9 days, when was the last time that happened?

I like Pete's response to Ammon's request that he stand down: "Hey, bust off, I've got a contract."
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 20, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
Mostly because I'm a damn good writer

Nothing like a little humility about ones skill set eh?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 20, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
So now he's blaming Duane Raligh?
WTF, his speculation is as valuable as anyone else's, who hasn't done the route.

Was that botched, biased, strawmanning 'press release' of his an example of his skills as "a damn good writer"?

No wonder the mags are going out of business.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
I think what Ammon is really trying to say nice is:

SHUT THE F*#K UP PETE!!!

You were not there, and years prior you top roped Ammon's rope and couldn't even figure out pitches 1 and 2.

Ammon did the entire route on his own merit. The Canadian ASSassin is once again riding on the coat tails of someone else's achievements.

I ran into both Ammon and Kait prior to leaving for the wall, and as Ammon said "I'm going to give it everything I got!!!" He did that and more.

F*#k Yeah Ammon and Kait. Congrats!!!!.

If R&I or anyone wants Poor Pete's advice on WOS you might as well ask him for advice on girls and relationships. Any of the above topics PtPP knows jack sh#t about.

R&I are assclowns to ask Pete for an article when the real one to ask is Ammon and Kait, Mark and Richard.

Period.
Gene

climber
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
+1
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
Ron, is that a vulture? I suppose the topic does smell a bit like carrion!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Richard and Mark's hurt feelings= zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
PTPP's failed attempt to climb WOS= zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
slab aid routes= zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Mimi's delusional rants= yawn, but more entertaining
PTPP's biased R&I "update"= zzzzzzzzzzzzzz... Those jackasses will publish anything if they will print that garbage.
Ammon and Kates ascent and write-up= finally, something worth reading about WOS!
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
atch +1

Well zzzzzzzzzzzed.
adam d

climber
Los Osos, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
+1 Atch

Yup...which of the above would entice me to buy a magazine? Only Ammon & Kait's account.

Which would I read for free on the internet? Uh, I'll read just about anything for free on the internet til a flick of the trackpad takes me to something better.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
Duane also asked me to write the press release immediately in order to provide advance publicity for the upcoming article.


I actually thought it was a good thing from the get go, as well as this thread, to keep the buzz going for Ammon and Kait... especially in regards to the article I assume they're going to write about their ascent.

Even though (to me) Pete's writings do seem to have a hint of bias in them... what is the that old saying?... "There's no such thing as bad press." I'd like to see this fire staying stoked for Ammon and Kait.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
I have been involved with Wings of Steel since 2005 when I was one of the first to give Mark and Richard the benefit of the doubt, 3)I have continued my research over the years and am extemely well-versed 4) Mostly because I'm a damn good writer.

Wow. Just...wow. Self-delusion run rampant. Countdown to "my friends the Hubers", "I gave lessons to Tomaz Humar", and 37 page "me me me" reports that fail to mention drilling and almost killing parners due to sheer ineptitude in 5, 4, 3, 2....
nature

climber
2006 Toyota Tacoma Wherever US, 00000
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
I thought of being an anonymous shitter for the SA. but the endless constipation made me back out of the arrangement I had with locker. He promised a good enema would do the trick. I still declined.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
I hear Blitzo is the man to speak to concerning enemas.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jul 20, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
There has to be a good way to just filter out the Canadian Assassin's posts...
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Jul 20, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
Hey caughtinside,

Don't say uhnuh around the Blitz!

Uhuh
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Jul 20, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
I hope Ammon and Kait don't say boo on this site. It's painfully obvious mostly Bozo's reply to WOS threads. And i did say mostly not all.
pk_davidson

Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
Jul 20, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
I suppose the topic does smell a bit like carrion!

Carrion, my wayward son,
There'll be peace when Ammon writes,
lay this weary thread to rest,
don't you scream no more...

Once they rose above the valley of confusion,
they began to get a glimpse of the illusion,
Kait was soaring every higher,
But Pete stooped too low.

Though his hooks wouldn't stick he still wouldn't listen
Though Ammond said back off, he still was a mad man,
I hear Mimi shouting even when I'm dreaming
I can still hear Steve say:

Masquerading as men without reason
their charade the event of treason
And tho he claims to be a wise man, well
it surely means we don't know sh#t

On a stormy sea of internet collusion
Tossed about like a dump on the ropes
Pete sets a course for minor fortune
Only to hear Ammon say

Backoff you carrion hoser
Get a grip, no more worthless releases!
Your attempts light your vanity
But surely the third waits for you.

Carrion, my wayward son,
There'll be peace when Ammon writes,
lay this weary thread to rest,
don't you scream no more...


.
..
...
I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 20, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
I've said it before but I'm really starting to believe that a lot of climbers are OCD.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 20, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
Raleigh belongs in this thread, he's a chiseling fool. Not to mention the bizarro world "lets not climb so clean" editorial circa '98 or so.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 20, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
News is news, Editors are mostly whores and storys belong to those who beat the deadline with the best dirt. We can choose which storys we want to read and which ones we will believe but we have little to no control over what will get published and by whome.......
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 20, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
....and its more optimistic sibling, reason. It would be cool to respect the preferences of climbers who were kind and generous enough to keep us posted on the progress of their ascent.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 20, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
Can we start a new game?
In order to post in this thread, you must incorporate a quote from Firefly into any post you make.

Examples:

Ammon and Kait, you've done the impossible, and that makes you mighty.

PTPP, you know I love you, but I gotta say Pete, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.

Dogtown - Yeah, Richard and Mark are a couple of f#&^ing dorks. But they're _our_ dorks. <3
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 20, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
Was that botched, biased, strawmanning 'press release' of his an example of his skills as "a damn good writer"?

No wonder the mags are going out of business.


hard to argue with that!


hey ammon-
you know what would set your legacy in stone as a legend?
(someone already said it upthread, forget who)

just keep it to yourself.
kinda thinkin pedro's "feature article" looks a little fluffy if you are not cooperating...

so especially if someone else is getting paid by some rag for your story, maybe you should see what the other rag will spring for, or alternatively keep your cards close to your chest and force them to press without your details, then they can be shown to be the ass-clowns they are acting like at this moment!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 21, 2011 - 01:58am PT
Me and E are OCD. This thread is all over the place. Is it human nature to want to rewrite history? I say good on Ammon and Kait, and I can wait for the real scoop.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:07am PT
In honor of this thread direction, and the second ascent, I took 3 paper bags, 14lbs of prunes and a pair of swimming goggles into an open field and, over the course of 11 hours, proceeded to fill said bags and toss them high into the air.

I am 2 for 3. Hoping to pick up my percentage for the third ascent.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:15am PT
Jul 20, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California

Jul 20, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
Pete, why are you involved in this? You couldn't even get up the first pitch WITH a top-rope. Why don't you STAND DOWN and let someone who has actually been up there take the reins.

Your taking advantage of someone else's (Kait and my) hard work. Face it, you wouldn’t have a story if there was no 2nd ascent.

Go work on your own project.

Went climbing in Der this afternoon, had a gas! I kept thinking about this though...and the more I think about it Ammon, I can't help but think your post was just rude! No worries, I've written things in hindsight I regretted later due to rudeness too. I can see where you are coming from, but Pete has a long history with this route; he's tried it, he's spent a ton of time on El Cap, he's talked with the first ascent party, heck he's talked with anyone involved who will discuss it with him. He's posted at great length about it on this forum. He has also posted quite a bit about how awesome your second ascent was/is!

I don't know you personally, but my impression from seeing you on videos and reading about your rad exploits on El Cap, along with reading your posts on SuperTopo, is that you are very cool. I was quite surprised to see this very negative post from you. Let's demean Pete, who is obviously a very experienced climber who did his best on WOS, about his inability to climb what is clearly an insanely hard and dangerous climb. Then to say "STAND DOWN"?

Welcome to the wonderful world of journalism. I can fully understand where you are coming from, you'd like to tell the story yourself. Why not write something like:

"Pete, I'd appreciate writing my own story about this without any speculation"...or something like that, without being so ugly...

There, done...just wanted to add to what I wrote earlier. I also enjoyed reading Pete's input...and I look forward to the story written by yourself!
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:43am PT
One of the shitters was the fifth Lowe brother Clarence.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:47am PT
Did that make it a Lowe blow?
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:35am PT
pk_davidson:
"Carrion, my wayward son,
There'll be peace when Ammon writes,
lay this weary thread to rest,
don't you scream no more..."

Whoa, an instant classic, right up there with "One Hand in My Chalkbag"!

"... we don't know sh#t" Ha ha ha!
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Jul 21, 2011 - 08:31am PT
Did that make it a Lowe blow?

+1,000,000
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 09:24am PT
Agree with j-tree.

Yo set it up and Mighty Hiker hits it out of the park!

Good work guys.

Prod.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 21, 2011 - 09:54am PT
Hummerchime:

If you knew the Canadian ASSassin you wouldn't even let him near your wife and kids. Regardless of how many walls/nights he wants to toot his own horn about daily.

What Ammon said was as nice as it should be for someone like Pete.

What kind of AssClown would call themselves a Wall Dr. and then gives themselves their own nickname. Usually one's friends gives you a nickname.... Pete had no friends and makes one up, he was so butt hurt that Big Wall Pete was taken by Takeda.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 21, 2011 - 10:20am PT

"Yay verily did we set forth into the realm of diamond stone, just we few stout warriors. We cast our cordage merrily to the four winds and hooketh our way into history.

There was the El Cap Pirate Sir Ammon of B.A.S.E., who was fleet of foot, but not fleet enough to outrun constable chubbies tazing device. Then the lovely Kait, more beautiful than El Capitan, with her flowing locks and a brave stout heart. Super maternal mother with her ever shimmering quill followed closely our journey through the sea of stone.

We followed the ghosts and legends of Sir Mark and Sir Richard, yay those humble monks once so maligned for their vision even to their strings of hope verily shat upon.

We even had The wicked Sir Pete, the humble scribe and now new villain of the play, whose hot wind blew at our backs and lifted us ever higher upon the terrifying precipice. And editor Baron-Von-What's-His-Face crying for ink!

And yet how can I leave out the seething mewing masses of Supertopo? Those invisible tribesmen of electrons, cheering, raging, ranting and guessing they too had a part in this mighty quest?"

Ah, the theatah, the greatest stage of all.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:07am PT
hey ammon-
you know what would set your legacy in stone as a legend?
(someone already said it upthread, forget who)

just keep it to yourself.

as curious as i am to hear the story,
and as much as i dislike what matt posts (he acts like a spurned lil bitch towards ptpp),

this is really good advice....

btw, the bitchiness and name calling on this thread are pathetic, bitches...
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:28am PT
While I do agree that the details of the SA are certainly Kaits and Ammons to tell. I am grossly interested in the history of this route, and grasping the feel of the Valley during that era. It seems that Pete has taken it upon himself to write this story, and I cannot wait to read it, as well as Kaits and Ammons SA TR. Maybe PTPP could start another thread.
What I would like to see is a clear break down of the events.

1. New guys show up and start climbing a slab?
2. Word spreads?
3. When did these guys start getting harassed?
4. When did SAR get involved with some meeting?
5. Who inspected the route, supposedly at night and drunk, and reported back that it is a bold ladder? If this is not the case than this guy or party is pretty guilty of starting a lot of this brew? No?
6. When did the chopping take place? Who chopped? Isn’t that something you do after you climb a route, and do with conviction and pride, not in anonymity? I do not know as I have never done it.
7. Were the choppers the shitters? Is that why the anonymity?
8. A time line of that 2 month period would be nice.

Are Matt and Base1361 the same person?

Prod.
Gene

climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:29am PT
Pete = advocate ≠ reporter. As DMT says, op-ed ≠ reporting. The SA story is Ammon’s, who can choose to op-ed, report, or be silent.

I suggest that one evening at Facelift there be a presentation in the auditorium featuring the FA and SA teams, the advocates, the haters, a Cobra infused crowd, and whipped cream pies. That would be fun.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Wow Gene, you're not just a pretty face but an effing brilliant one at that! We would have to dye the whipped cream brown to experience fully what you are suggesting here.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Ha! Peter! Brown cream pies! That would be so friggen funny!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Mark, don't you think we have something here?

Obviously we would use coffee or chocolate for the brown color. Diffuse the whole terrific situation and tale with a gong-show sort of battle royale, smiles all around. I think vis-queen on the ground of course or someone brings a giant doughboy swimming pool. I think Todd Gordon would be willing to bring up that one his kids are always playing in when it's hot down there.

Even Richard and Mark would be finally redeemed by not their Maker but by none other than fall-down-go-boom physical humor instead---forgetting all about their habitual air loops over Jerusalem, finally in sync with The Big One. PTPP would fit right in, in the stir and get over-stimulated and need to breathe in a paper bag---how symbolic considering the constant use of paper bags on the FA and by the Aquarian climbers above the FA party that day; Ammon and Kait---not unfamiliar with "A Real Good Time", surely would participate too and bring their SA experience to the table plus it would be good to exercise Ammon's sore shoulder in the Lube---he has got to keep his Range of Motion you know. That's just the core group. Then there is the rest of us and we would be the ones paying our own way. But these fees would varying randomly like the camp fees Richard and Mark had to pay while they were luxuriating away in their "hounded down" phase at the start. We used to have Rangers vs Climbers Ball Games so we have historic antecedents here. Tami would do the scene boards beforehand so the camera people would not have to call for re-takes.
Gene

climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
Think we could get Timmy O'Neill as Master of Ceremonies?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
I think it's an awesome idea. I'd make sure to be there.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
I'd be grinning like an opossum eating sh#t.
pk_davidson

Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
Pete = advocate ≠ reporter. As DMT says, op-ed ≠ reporting

+1
And that Prod is the prodlem with having pptp "report" the story. It would be biased as was his prior attempt to scoop the SA w/ his "news" release. Piggy backing a biased "story" (and that's what it will be, a story, not a report) onto a factual TR is lame, coatheel grabbing, wannabe journalism.

Oh, and I'll donate some pies to the great event.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
Timmy---always up for further edgework--- would distribute the foam lightsabers and pies, while officiating from a home-made portaledge modeled after Richard's little bit of collapso-craziness he had suffered with for weeks on the FA.

In fact there would be a silent auction on stuff that Richard and Mark would donate from the FA; this sub-event would benefit the Yosemite Climbing Association in congress with the NPS to establish a long-awaited sewer lateral run up from North Valley Drive to Wendy and Captain Hook and with an initial modest offering of five strategically located comfort men's and women's facilities along the line, the first being obviously near Pine Line and the Nose start. The understanding here would be that the lateral was sized large enough to eventually sustain sublaterals up the various major lines. Jesse and Jake's work would be finally done.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
I'm looking forward to reading both articles...

Pete's about the history and all the other stuff and Ammon and Kait's about the actual ascent. I think both would end up complementing each other.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
relax, reno
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Gene, LOL great idea and best post of the thread.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
Are folks seriously saying there should be no third-party reporting about the second ascent of Wings Of Steel?

Obviously, there are only two up close and personal first-person perspectives on the 2nd ascent, Ammon's and Kait's. And what they decide to do with those unique experiences, thoughts, and photos is entirely their choice.

How many articles and books on the 2008 K2 tragedy have been written by people who were not there on the mountain at the time.

How many judges don't have their own opinion about a case they are ruling on.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
By the way, Richard’s historic Wings of Steel book is worth reading. (Amazon: used from $5.93 see below).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/082800739X/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1311265894&sr=1-1&condition=used

The occasional religious perorations aside, it is a marvelously youthful and dogged little tale of their undertaking, replete at times with tremendous detail and exploring most of the possible ways in which a pair of imagined underdogs could revel in The Realm of the Slab for a month and a half. It IS a part of our history now and Wings of Steel Scholars can’t really claim their wings without a close read of it.

EDIT 7/21/11: Absolutely seriously, I DO recommend this book. Although I am about as rabid an atheist as one can be, this book is historic and valuable to our art; it's decently put together, and the language is good enough to stand up well in comparison to other accounts from the field. Richard was phenomenally diligent here and it is also a tale from youth, almost picaresque in its nature albeit an Adventist-tinged one at points. Further, the religious parts of it are short and read almost "pasted in" thankfully and are not too disgusting or implausible. Richard poses himself as "A Quitter" in it early on and a lot of the tale then is his struggle and Mark's struggle to NOT quit as they face week after week the tougher consequences of their inexperienced and youthful dreams in the wondrous context of the King Slab, one of El Cap's stranger but gorgeous features. It really is a classic, Pilgrims. It is good enough for Richard to go back and groom the tale again for another edition I think; I do know his writing is quite a bit more developed since those days ---Wings is practically a child-authored piece, you know---and it will be clear coming up soon that their ascent ended up making sense, after a fashion, and must be counted in with all the other storied, kooky lines we have created on the formation.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
Hey PK,

I agree that a fully non biased story would be the best, but when does that happen? That being said, I think Pete is pretty good at finding facts, and if he injects his opinion it should be pretty obvious where that is happening. I've not studied Pete's posts, so I may be wrong here, but it seems that PTPP defense is largely that the route is hard and not a bolt ladder. He has met the FA's and says he likes them, and he thinks the shitters are as#@&%es (figuratively and literally) sort of hard to argue that.

I’m interested in reading his story.

Prod.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 21, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Somebody is selling a copy of the book for $999. This is all sounding like a boiler room scam to me.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
Ammon has already said in this thread that info from Pete's press release concerning micro enhancements was 'Wrong' but we have yet to see an apology or a correction on the R&I website.

So I don't have much hope for a more accurate article.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Uh... Turdturner, that is a shity argument.

Prod.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
I agree asswipe! But your argument lacks logic. There is a huge difference between the 2 acts. F*#ktard.

Prod.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
After about 30,000 posts on this topic, libelous statements in guidebooks, delusional, spiteful and uninformed ranting over the course of 30 years, all from, except for 5 or 6 folks, people that have never been on this route, it's pretty funny to hear that there suddenly needs to be some sanctity in who writes what.

I think it's pretty obvious people can say whatever they want wherever they want.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
I ask you has there ever been any censure from the climbing community for Cosgrove and Smiths thoughtless selfish actions . F**k No. They are complicit too!

Not sure about Coz, but the Kid? Yes. Look at what he did in Clear Creek Canyon, when he bolted plastic holds on a route that he could not send. It was chopped, and written up about in all the mags. Others who know him can comment on tons of flack that he has taken. BTW I am pretty sure the route has been sent with out the use of plastic holds.

Prod.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
Turdturner is a nameless, faceless and clearly dickless detractor who started his user name today for the sole purpose of attacking Scott Cosgrove.

Scott has already 'fessed up, paid for his sins, and moved on. That this person would come on and attack from an anonymous user name is the EPITOME OF COWARDICE.

Hey Turdturner - why don't you come down to the bridge and have a beer and talk it over face to face with Scott?

And would you please provide your real name and hometown for us, and please provide a picture on the "Who The Hell Are You" thread?

Cowards and bullies like you will never do so, however. This website is full of plenty of turds besides you, unfortunately.

Such a non-person should be completely ignored, along with everyone else who hurls insults and accusations from a fake, anonymous, or incomplete user name.

Peter Zabrok
Whitby, Ontario
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
Turdturner = emotional reactionary.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
This has to be the best thread ever! It has a life of its own!
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
hey ammon-
you know what would set your legacy in stone as a legend?
(someone already said it upthread, forget who)

just keep it to yourself.

I like Matt's advice. Who could possibly think that getting the truth would be any fun? On what evidence? And what are the chances that the truth is going to clear up anything anyway? Of course we would all be free but bored to death that our favorite thread topic has been reduced to facts and history.

So, my vote is that Pete publishes all the stories, writes all the posts on the Web, and takes all the flak, and that Ammon and Kait remain above it all. However, there will still be paparazzi, ambush journalist, and hackers retrieving their phone mail, so Ammon and Kait need to memorize appropriate, above-it-all clichés.

I have pulled a few from reliable sources that will give Ammon and Kait a good start.

Ammon’s clichés:

“Wings of Steel” is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery.

SuperTopo posters are paper tigers.

Hooking is not love. Hooking is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.

Despise the shitters strategically, but take them seriously tactically.

Genuine equality amongst climbers can only be realized in the process of the socialist transformation of the climbing community as a whole.

In general, any form of exercise, if pursued continuously, will help train us in perseverance. Big wall climbing is particularly good training in perseverance.

In time of difficulties, we must not lose sight of our achievements.

In waking a tiger, use a long stick.

Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred hook moves contend.

Once all struggle is grasped, miracles are possible.

Swollen in head, weak in legs, sharp in tongue but empty in belly.

People like me sound like a lot of big cannons.

SuperTopo is war without bloodshed, while WoS is politics with bloodshed.

Climbing power grows out of the silence.


Kait’s clichés:

A hard man is good to find.

A climber can be short and dumpy and getting bald but if he has fire, women will like him.

A climber on a wall is worth two on SuperTopo.

A man's drill is his signature.

All failed climbers should be given a second chance, but by somebody else.

An ounce of performance is worth pounds of SuperTopo posts.

Any time you've got nothing to do and lots of time to do it come on up El Cap with me.

Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly.

Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.

Don't keep a climbing magazine guessing too long – they are sure to find the answer on SuperTopo.

He who hesitates is a damned fool.

He's the kind of climber a partner would have to marry to get rid of.

(Yes, I have sources!)
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:25pm PT

Ahh, wicked knight, whence did thee come?

And now gentle reader, we must add jester turdturner to our sordid play!
How tender, how sinuous are the threads connecting the Muir to Wings of Steel.

Is this dark shadow cast upon our midst only as more boisterous talk to the general fray? Me thinks not. Me thinks this is Sir Cosgrove's shunned lover, a woman in clever ruse of a man! A climber she, who too many pounds later, could no longer catch the wandering gaze Sir Coz cast about.

Me thinks she doth protesteth too much!
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
Looks like The Turd™ has been flushed:

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_profile.php?dcid=MDw5PT84Oyk,
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
Bummer I was enjoying our discussion.

Prod.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
[quote][Bummer I was enjoying our discussion.
/quote]

LOL I was rooting for you Prod it was getting good Mark is right this thread is the best :)
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Hey DMT,

Just so you know, of the 40 results for the search "f*#ktard" you have used the phrase 12 times. I've only used it once talking about turdturner.

Prod.
lars johansen

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
"A climber can be short and dumpy and getting bald but if he has fire, women will like him."

Clance?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Wow, that was quick! Turdburner's gone already??

Within minutes of his first post?

Does that mean there are mods around here?? Or does the welcome to the machine automatically recognize a banned person's address and shuts them down auto?

Enquiring minds want to know!!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 21, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
How can people say this thread is worthless when it produces posts like Rodgers? that was classic. And I love Survivals romanticized version of events and Genes idea. I would pay money to see that event. haha.. Love it.

and wow.. we have a fast turdflusher.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 21, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
Yeah, good thinking Gene - I'd come down for that show...
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 21, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca

Jul 21, 2011 - 11:05am PT
After about 30,000 posts on this topic, libelous statements in guidebooks, delusional, spiteful and uninformed ranting over the course of 30 years, all from, except for 5 or 6 folks, people that have never been on this route, it's pretty funny to hear that there suddenly needs to be some sanctity in who writes what.

I think it's pretty obvious people can say whatever they want wherever they want.

Well put sir!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 21, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
pk_davidson, Nice Lyrics!


As far as writing an article on top rope...
If feel that Pete should stand back, not stand down. He shouldn't be speculating/stealing details of the SA from Ammon and Kait. Let them tell the story of the SA. But THEN I would like to hear what he's found out. He has been researching and probably know things that Ammon and Kait don't and it would be interesting to hear about the history and controversy and I don't know if A&K have the desire to research and write about that.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 21, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Mark Hudon said:
This has to be the best thread ever! It has a life of its own!


My sentiment exactly.^^^

... and all that crap Rodger b said... I'm jiggy with that too.

Regardless of which side of the slab you stand (or sh#t on)- this whole thing is a classic Yosemite history.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 21, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
good post rodger!


edit
as far as the facelift 3 ring circus goes, only if we can have different segments or presentations separated by 13 or 14 yr old "ring girls" prancing across the stage, all dressed up in their pedophile friendly atire-

say in high heels and daisy dukes, tight tank-tops and over-the-top lipsick.




(wouldn't you agree, eh?)
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 21, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
I edited in upthread the following. You might find this interesting. I have finished the Wings of Steel book just now.

edit from upthread post:
Absolutely seriously, I DO recommend this book. Although I am about as rabid an atheist as one can be, this book is historic and valuable to our art; it's decently put together, and the language is good enough to stand up well in comparison to other accounts from the field. Richard was phenomenally diligent here and it is also a tale from youth, almost picaresque in its nature albeit an Adventist-tinged one at points. Further, the religious parts of it are short and read almost "pasted in" thankfully and are not too disgusting or implausible. Richard poses himself as "A Quitter" in it early on and a lot of the tale then is his struggle and Mark's struggle to NOT quit as they face week after week the tougher consequences of their inexperienced and youthful dreams in the wondrous and peculiar context of the King Slab, one of El Cap's stranger but gorgeous features. It really is a classic, Pilgrims. It is good enough for Richard to go back and groom the tale again for another edition I think; I do know his writing is quite a bit more developed since those days ---Wings is practically a child-authored piece, you know, and the route climbed by very very young guys---and it will be clear coming up soon that their ascent ended up making sense, after a fashion, and must be counted in with all the other storied, kooky lines we have created on the whole formation.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 21, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
One way or another, I want to read Pete's article regarding the history of Wings of Steel just as much as I want to read Ammon and Kait's account of the SA. As far as I'm concerned, this controversy's been around almost as long as I have, there's room enough for two articles that I see as complementary to each other.

I do agree with the assertion that it would be good for PTPP to stick to what he knows, and not comment on the SA - it seems to me that having solely earned that accomplishment, it's Ammon and Kait's tale to tell, and only they may speak of it authoritatively.

At the same time, and given his legwork into personally investigating the climb (as reported in this thread over the past 5 years), I do believe that PTPP has a great deal of information about Wings of Steel, its history, and its controversy. I would like to see both articles published concurrently.

Also, I second Peter Haan's recommendation of the original book Wings of Steel. I just finished it myself, and it's about 6 hours of casual reading. Much like this thread, it grows on ya.


EDIT: As per Knuckles' later thread suggestion, I heard that Bridwell used questionable climbing ethics and artificially inflated the difficulty rating on all of his major climbs. (Also, that he couldn't climax unless he was choking a prostitute.)
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:49am PT
Playing tonight:
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:36am PT
Bremsspur.
My German nickname.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:35am PT
A couple of quick comments. I've stayed out of this. I was in the Valley for part of the time that Mark and Richard were on the wall. I was in C4 when their ropes got cut, but wasn't involved. I didn't know Mark or Richard personally, but had a vague idea of who they were, since I was living near Riverside.

First, the context matters. In the early 1980s, the Valley was just starting to come to grips with the idea that it was a cragging rather than a mountaineering arena. But it was the high point of investment in alpine, capsule style ascents. The American team on Latok was still an example folks talked about. "Sieging," on free climbs or walls, was considered retrograde. We hadn't yet had decades of rap-in, rehearsal of big free routes or Chongo and Pete's transformation of El Cap into a sort of a vertical Caribbean for lowball pleasure cruises. For someone (especially "outsiders'), to walk up and begin sieging a new and unusual route, was a highly aggressive move and was seen as a step backward.

Second, yes, it matters that Mark and Richard were Valley outsiders. No, that doesn't justify cutting ropes or the shitting episode, but it does matter. The idea that every single climber should be treated exactly the same is just not going to fly. It certainly isn't the case here, even online. It's not the case in any professional community with which I am familiar. Folks who are well-known, and vetted by the community, and respected, are more likely to be given a chance to push the envelope and are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. That's entirely fair. In places like Yosemite (especially in the 1980s) or Chamonix, that custom is going to take some fairly ugly forms at times. In this case, it clearly got out of hand. But the practice is traditional and general and is one of the few things now standing between us and the land managers. In the old days, the Clubs (the SC on the West Coast) mediated between climbers and land managers. But the Clubs are gone. Community consensus, typically led by the most visible and respected "locals," is pretty much all that remains.

Third, the slab climbing was difficult for onlookers to understand and for two reasons. First, simply because it was new and seemed weird-- wall climbing consisted of linking together crack systems and avoiding blank chunks of rock as much as possible, since long blank sections typically meant drilling, and we had all learned that drilling was bad. Second, because Yosemite developed a system of preferences (usually described as "ethics") in which virtually any kind of hammered placement was seen as better than a drilled hole. Decades later, after sport climbing, bolt replacement, and years of abuse of thin seams and cracks, most of us are now a bit more sanguine about bolts. An average bolt hole, in good granite, is a lot easier to fill, repair, and hide than the nasty scars left in a seam by years of stacking, chiseling, or heading. Today, it is a lot tougher to say that whaling removable metal into a flared seam is ecologically superior to a bolt. But that perspective is new-- virtually no one would have shared it back in the early 1980s. Certainly no one I ever heard speak on the topic.

For the record, I really don't care who writes what story.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
Thanks for your perspective! Great stuff and hugely appreciated.

You write,

"For someone (especially "outsiders'), to walk up and begin sieging a new and unusual route, was a highly aggressive move and was seen as a step backward."

This is factually incorrect. After fixing two pitches, Mark and Richard climbed Wings of Steel in a single continuous push.

I am very curious as to how you got the idea that they "sieged" the route, and that this mistaken idea persists to today. Not a criticism, but merely an observation and a question.

Cheers,
Pete
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
That's entirely fair. In places like Yosemite (especially in the 1980s) or Chamonix, that custom is going to take some fairly ugly forms at times.

Thank god I learned to climb at an unknown, backwater crag without an existing social scene, class structure, or perceptual limits imposed by other climbers. Christ, what odious bullshit to have to wade through on the way to the rock.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
Yeah, you got there first. So other people get to wade through your odious BS.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
So other people get to wade through your odious BS

Thankfully not; it wasn't our deal and by and large there were no "other people".
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Ron, come on up to Donner and bolt something. Noone gives a sh#t, unless its a piece of sh#t, then it will be removed. Or not. Enjoy!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
This is factually incorrect. After fixing two pitches, Mark and Richard climbed Wings of Steel in a single continuous push.

It was seen as a siege because of the time on the route. Now you can argue (and it's much easier thirty years or whatever on), that Mark and Richard were correct in pressing that boundary and that the locals were incorrect. But that battle was part of the reason for the controversy.

I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever. And I'm not commenting on the relative difficulty or the religious practice or whether the time spent was appropriate for the toughness of the climbing. I don't have a dog in this fight. But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."



klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Thank god I learned to climb at an unknown, backwater crag without an existing social scene, class structure, or perceptual limits imposed by other climbers. Christ, what odious bullshit to have to wade through on the way to the rock.

One of the reasons that you got to imagine yourself a libertarian was that you won the historical lottery: In the National Parks, your generation had the opportunity precisely because the Clubs-- with their class structure, belay tests, and formal and informal social practices for establishing hierarchies of competence --had done the hard work of negotiating with the NPS and other land managers to establish climbing as an acceptable practice in places like Yosemite and Rainier. The NPS wanted to ban climbing in Yosemite-- it was only the lobbying of the SIerra Club-- and its highly visible practices of self-regulation --that helped to ensure that folks like you or Mark and Richard could just "walk up" and do what came naturally.

So far as the odious bullsh#t, CI is right: At your crags you came first, so now you and yr broheims have set the local customs and expectations. We know yr opinion of folks who'd walk up to yr favorite spot and put in a sport route.

And climbing is just one of the many places (like the entire frickin world), where reputation matters. Sports, white collar professions, the construction site-- I've never worked, played or competed in any arena, anywhere in the world, in which folks with established reps didn't get treated differently and where being an "outsider" wasn't difficult. You're a stranger, you know the bar is going to be higher.

Again, it doesn't excuse the sort of abuse that Mark and Richard had to endure.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever.

Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
It was seen as a siege because of the time on the route. Now you can argue (and it's much easier thirty years or whatever on), that Mark and Richard were correct in pressing that boundary and that the locals were incorrect. But that battle was part of the reason for the controversy.

I am not saying that Richard and Mark are criminals or whatever. And I'm not commenting on the relative difficulty or the religious practice or whether the time spent was appropriate for the toughness of the climbing. I don't have a dog in this fight. But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."

How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
klk's post speaks volumes.

and while we can argue about what the "unwritten rules" of this game called rockclimbing are, there is no denying that they exist.

i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
But yeah, in the early 1980s, WoS was pushing the borders of what constituted "walking up and climbing in an alpine, capsule or single-push style."


But mostly, it pushed the borders of not bowing down to the self appointed valley gods and basically telling them to go f#*k themselves.

When the route was clandestinely chopped at night they were left with two choices: quit or a vertical camping trip.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
...they were left with two choices: quit or...

And the bottom line is they were no less tenacious, galling, or determined than anyone else who has ever done an FA in the Valley.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
How long did the first ascent of the Nose take?

A good example.

The FA of the Nose represented a major achievement in mountaineering, not just in rockclimbing. El Cap was still a major and unknown alpine objective. Up high, even retreat-- let alone rescue --was uncertain. The FA was led by one of the most visible, well-known and respected climbers in California. It was probably only the heavy lobbying in support of climbing done by the Sierra Club in previous years, that made is possible for them to even try the thing.

Even then, the NPS contemplated forbidding the climb itself.

The story illustrates my points pretty nicely.

WOS happened in what we now know to be a transitional moment for Yosemite. Climbing had been established as an acceptable and historically valid activity. Rescues from El Cap had become commonplace. Ascents were regular and frequent. Social custom and self-regulation had replaced the tests and lobbying of the Sierra Club. The siege style of the FA of The Nose was regarded as an antiquity no longer appropriate to Yosemite climbing and possibly soon to be discarded even in the Himalaya.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Even more tenacious, to stay up there that long.

Yup, Warren Harding had indeed paid his dues in Yosemite, and was well known. How could Mark Smith and Richard Jensen - Big Wall Parvenus - DARE to put up a route on El Capitan?

"i believe what exacerbated the WOS story is just how many big wall how to books and magazine articles (after the fact) called it a travesty when none of those that wrote that stuff had the balls to go climb the route. climbing is afterall a game of action and anyone of us can write and spew BS but when push come to shove what really matters is the action, not the BS."

^^ Concur.

Something none of us has seen yet here is the textbook that has a chapter on ethics, and the writer of the chapter describes the first ascensionists of Wings of Steel, who I believe were not named, essentially being run out of town on a rail. These few sentences in that book, more than ANYTHING ELSE, were what influenced my incorrect thinking about Wings of Steel up until 2005.

I believe the book I'm thinking of is by Strassman. There are excellent carton drawings in it, and I believe a chapter by Randy Leavitt on aggressive bounce testing. Maybe John Long was involved and knows which book I mean?

It would be awesome if someone could find a copy, and scan up the relevant chapter, as well as the author of the chapter. I know I have a copy "somewhere", but well, you know... anonymous carboard box #56 of 500 in the garage, basement or attic. Sheesh.

Cheers,
Pete
BWP
[Hi Conrad!]
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Big-Walls-Outdoor-sports/dp/0934802599
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
Thanks, Atch.

Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?


On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha...good one.

Joe, I have actually avoided posting in this thread up til now, for the same reason that if I passed a spot where people were smearing each other with sh#t, I'd just keep walking.

But I am amazed that hundreds to thousands of posts on various threads later, the conversation still runs like this:

Wings of Steel generated controversy because either

A. Mark and RIchard were as#@&%es; or
B. Valley climbers were as#@&%es.


I don't believe that either of those is a good explanation of why this route generated so much controversy. Asshattery certainly made the controversy uglier. But no, I don't believe that was the only thing that mattered.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
it's been posted before...


from:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&msg=517053#msg517053

EDIT: Pete, read the referenced post as well....
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
Thanks, Mr. Kingsbury!

That is *precisely* the quote that so affected me over the years! Those single lines absolutely solidified in my mind, along with the "Note: This route contains many rivets" in the Reid guidebook, that WoS was a PoS.

Who is the author or those words, please?

I believe that the words written above are amongst the most defaming ever written concerning Mark and Richard.

Thanks very much!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
yes thats the book....says on the amazon site that SG wrote the chapter. the same guy who said he was going to do the 2nd then didnt. talk is cheap. had all of this crap about the WoS FA party been just verbal thats one thing....but writing it up in a Big Wall How To book without ever having set foot on the route was lame IMHO. this also contributed highly to the lingering bashing of the WoS FA party.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
What is the name of the author of the chapter, Hawkeye?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
It always makes someone look like an ass when they purport to speak on behalf of "the climbing community".
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
Actually, that might be only part of the statement that is true. You sure can't argue that the climbing community didn't retaliate. However rest is nonsense.

But man, I sure believed it. Unbelievable, but true.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
Pete, you haven't been paing attention. A number of climbers have posted saying they were there , but didn;t condone or get involved in this bs. Seems like a small vocal majority of VC's.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
pete,

About the Author
Jim Bridwell is called Mr. Big Wall. His climbing experiences stem back two decades. Specializing in speed climbing, Jim was the first climber to ascend El Capitan in on day. Steve Grossman is and experienced climber whose concern for the environment causes him to take the concept of clean climbing to the extreme. Steve writes about putting up first ascents and climbing ethics, two concepts that go hand in hand. Randy Leavitt has produced some of the toughest pitches ever climbed on El Capitan. A bold climber, Randy's main concern is safety as you will notice in his chapter on Tricky Placements. John Middendorf has ascended El Capitan over 20 times. As President of the climbing equipment company, A5 Adventures, John and A5 have helped many beginning big wall climbers reach new heights. Steve Schnieder sets the pace when it comes to speed climbing. Along with a partner, Steve climbed two routes on El Capitan in one day. Steve's chapters give techniques for climbing fast, how to achieve a one-day ascent, and rope soloing. Mike Strassman is chief editor to this book. He has written two other ICS titles to include The Basic Essentials of Rock Climbing and The Basic Essentials of Mountain Biking. Mike has experience climbing various terrains, everything from Zion Canyon and The Equinox to The Washington Column.

this from the amazon site....i think back on that old thread Steve indicates that the editor added some stuff to the offending section as well...

on a side note i thought Schneiders chapter on speed was way cool and the first real info of its kind BITD...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
So the words above then, concerning Wings of Steel, are from the chapter Steve Grossman wrote. But it could have been edited as well.

Hmmm. It would be interesting to know from Steve if he recalls those to be his exact words, or if they were changed by the editor?

Yes, Atch - it wasn't everyone who was against Mark and Richard. But my research indicates it was a substantial number of the big names from back in the day. And there were enough of them to physically threaten the two parvenus.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
Not to lean on my editor now gone, but the "from the Valley forever," part was his addition and grammatically funky.

from:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&msg=517053#msg517053
FreeClimberDude

Trad climber
CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Thanks, Atch.

Here is the book we seek. Or at least I *think* it's the book we seek! Anyone got it? Got a digi cam or a scanner?



On sale used starting at thirty-three cents!

I bet several of those guys are original shitters crew if we could know all! I was told a couple of them were by an old timer in the valley.. ouch
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
I could have it completely wrong, but I get the impression quite a few of the SoCal climbers had earlier jock backgrounds; curious if that was actually the case and what role, if any, that subtext may have played in the development of the local 'culture'.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
BTW
I find it a bit odd that PTPP didn't know who the author was until today...being an expert on the story and all...just sayin
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Mr. Kingsbury,

Thanks for the quote and clarification regarding it. As for the name of the author, you are forgetting that I was an angler long before I was a climber.

Knuckles - the very second after I set down the phone after being offered the gig from R&I, I emailed Kait's mom #1SuperMama to inform her.

Knuckles - You also raise an excellent point that nobody has yet considered - thanks! Dave Turner was the Yosemite local who went to Patagonia, and spent a similar length of time making the first-ever completely unsupported solo of a Grade VII big wall.

Dave = hero today
Mark and Richard = goats yesterday

Why? Please discuss.



"-There's been a great deal of logic in these last few pages. All sorts of well thought out posts about bolting perceptions vs. nailing, territorial rights and paying dues, etc. All this good perspective and compelling arguement has no place on Super Topo and least of all this thread. I suggest everyone who posts logical thoughts or anything not including hatred and spite go back and edit their posts while slightly drunk and think twice (or drink twice) before posting again."

Well, I'll be buggered - it's FRIDAY!

Knuckles - would you care to make the first post today:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1054430/The-Friday-Night-Posting-While-Drunk-Post

Be sure to play by the "rules"!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 22, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
Re. the Nose first ascent. The first third, with Mark Powell at the helm, took about a week. Had he not busted his ankle, forcing slowpoke Harding to start leading, the whole thing might have been over within a month or so.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Why is it cool now and when Harding did it but it was a regression of style when Richard and Mark did it.

There is a huge difference between a first ascent in the 1950s of what was then a major mountaineering objective by one of the two ro three leading climbers of the era, and a first ascent of a variation to popular rockclimbs by unknowns thirty years later.

First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option.

Second, because in the late 1960s and 1970s, the concept of alpine style developed in opposition to older, expedition mountaineering. You needn't have participated in those debates to grasp the story: Just pick up any of the dozens of standard histories of mountaineering or just get Donini started and then sit back and drink beer.

Turner's ascent is different because of (1) and partly because of (2).

Historical perspective doesn't mean picking up random bits of data from whenever or wherever and then tossing them in a blender as if they were all equal components. When and where something happens matters. That's what "historical perspective" is.

Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about WoS, and I don't have a personal opinion as to whether or not it was "retrograde" by early 1980s standards. And I remain fairly appalled by the sort of abuse directed at Mark and Richard. But it does matter that it happened right then and swam against what was then a very strong current-- from the Americans on Latok to Messner on Everest --in favor of minimalist undertakings.

There is no longer such a consensus on El Cap. Now, it's just another practice crag-- rap in, live on ledges, rehearse whatever for new FFAs. Drag your bridge circle up a trade route-- the context has changed.

So no, 1959 is not the early 1980s is not 2011.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
"First, because the relative difficulty of the first route was vastly greater-- it was unclear if it really possible, unclear if the NPS would allow it, marginal gear, not even clear if retreat could happen and, of course, rescue wasn't a real option."


This describes Dave Turner's solo quite well. [except for the NPS bit]

"Again, I don't personally give a rat's ass about..."

Spoken like Warren Harding himself!
Knuckles

Trad climber
Everett, Wa
Jul 22, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Klk and Ron- I understand there's huge differences in the situations. There's also parallels. I put them out there more as side topics for consideration, not points to prove anything. I can fully appreciate the evolution of style and ethics and know that you can't just "throw things into a blender" and say they're the same thing. That wasn't my intent and I guess I worded it poorly. Again I meant it more as a side conversation not an endorsement of their tactics in '82.

I think Turner's ascent is also different because he was solo, in an area where he was truly alone, not the SE face of El Cap where a rescue is a phone call away.

Pete the fact that you had told Mama as much about being involved in this from a media perspective is great. What would make people not as mad at you at times is if you would let people know critical details like this. There's several posts blasting you in this situation and you're pulling a Nanook and pretending like they're not there. While I admire your ability to take sh#t (bad example in this thread), I think people's perceptions of you might be different if you revealved that sort of info.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
Knuckles - Let me correct everyone here on what happened. Pete had emailed my mom stating that he was going to do an article for Rock & Ice and that he had wanted to talk with Ammon and I as soon as we had gotten down from our climb. We found out about this email when we had yet to even had finished Wings of Steel. Both Ammon and I were a little perturbed that we hadn't even finished the climb and someone was already jumping on our story. My mom had written Pete back stating that we didn't agree with what he was doing and that we had planned on writing our own article discussing the history and controversy of the climb.

What Pete used in his R&I piece was information provided by us when we talked with him privately at the bridge discussing the first two pitches and the info he got from my mom as she was reporting here on supertopo to everyone of our progress. At the time, we talked with Pete we didn't know he was going to write anything about WOS. I guess it is a lesson learned.

And yes, Pete can write anything he wants too. I agree to that. It's just there should be a certain amount of respect upon doing so. For instance, asking us upon completion of our climb if we had been planning to write an article? If not, he should have mentioned he wanted to write one. If we said yes we were planning on writing one about our climb, then to maybe ask if he could collaborate with us. All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
All it takes is a little decency in the beginning to avoid conflict in the end.

Seems like this thought, 30 years ago, would have avoided this whole situation.
Knuckles

Trad climber
Everett, Wa
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
Kait
Unfortunately decency isn't Pete's strong suit. I agree that he should've made his intentions much more clear and respected you and Ammon. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation.

The "media" we're used to seeing usually doesn't care about the feelings or respect of those it's reporting on as there's some level of anonymmity. I would hope that Pete would've been different considering his involvement and connection to the community. Perhaps not though.

It seems Pete has a long and somewhat sordid history of miscommunication and general toe-stepping-on. I do think he's relatively harmless and probably meant no disrespect with his actions. There's a big difference between in-considerate and un-considerate. I think in his excitement he just fell into the latter and just didn't really think before acting. Maybe the same could be said of the orignial shitters? No doubt this full cirlce connection will bring an end to this controversy and several thousand post topic. Or maybe not..,
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
Kait. no offense intended just a bit of advice about talking to the press from someone who has done a fair bit of freelance photojournalism. If you don't want it in the press and often misquoted at that then do not talk to the press. IT Is no secret that Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not. You guys are still sitting pretty to write an article but as with all things editiorial related where and if it gets published depends on who you haVE the best relationship with and who is willing to publish your work. Do Not procrastonate. get something good put together ASAP and start shopping it.
Knuckles

Trad climber
Everett, Wa
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
Tradman
While you're absolutely right, Kait and Ammon should still be basking in the glow of their send, high fiving and drinking beer at the bridge, not madly typing trying to get it to print first. It's unfortunate to see this play out this way.

Hopefully what Pete would do at this stage is promise to not publish anything until after they get a chance. Maybe Pete can pitch a two parter to the SA team and to Raleigh at R & I? Ammon and Kait do the TR and tell they're perspective and Pete provides some additional historical context.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT

"Pete has a collum in one of the glossy raggs so he is the press like it or not."

No, he got canned a few years back and doesn't write for them anymore.

"Always ask whether your comments are on/off record or are for publication. I had this issue with a Bloomberg reporter yesterday."

That doesn't always work and has in FACT bit me in the arse in the past.

All good, everything has worked itself out. Cheers!
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Everything klk is saying verbatim.

Many people discussing wos don't appear to understand that wos is controversial.

As for pete, profiting in ones own recreation and trying to remain thought of as a regular member of that recreation's community has always been a slippery slope. Some are clearly better at it than others.
Gene

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
Why is Pete involved in WoS in any way, shape or form? Journalist? Come on. Historian? Yeah! Measured and insightful? You bet.

I don't get it.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
To be clear on the timeline, when I spoke to Ammon and Kait on the bridge, it never even occured to me to write an article! I just saw them, and asked how it was going. I was and am most curious as to what they found. I'm super psyched that they sent the wall - thank goodness.

As they continued their climb, once again, it never occured to me to write an article. I was and am most interested in what they found, and how it reflects on Mark's and Richard's credibility.

At some point along the line, I thought, "Gee, I wonder if R&I might like an article?" So on a whim, I picked up the phone and called Duane, and he said, "Sure, sounds interesting. You should definitely talk to Ammon and Kait." At the same time, R*I asked me to write a news blurb.

So upon hanging up the phone, I immediately emailed Kait's mom, told her I'd been asked to write an article, and could I talk to them either on the wall, or as soon as they got down. I did hear back from her about a day later, as Kait relates above. In the meantime, I wrote the press release as requested.

At the time I spoke with Ammon and Kait on the bridge, and at the time I wrote Kait's mom, it never occured to me that Ammon and Kait might be considering writing something, too. We had simply not talked about it. Had I thought to ask, I would have, but I didn't think to ask.

What I told their mom was what I wanted to hear from Ammon and Kait is their story, the story of the second ascent. I have nothing to say about this, as it is their story to tell, and I look forward to hearing it.

When Kait instant messaged me on Facebook, I did apologize to her for the press release. I wish we had talked about it on the bridge. Once again, it was never my intent to usurp their Second Ascent story nor step on their toes.

The story I wish to pursue is the story of Mark and Richard, the past and present, the smear campaign, and so on. To me, that's the real story, because it affected their entire lives for a quarter-century. And to me, Ammon and Kait's ascent is a highly relevant sidebar to that story, as well as a story unto itself.

It's not a competition. I'd prefer to work together with Kait and Ammon. I would love a collaborative effort among the three of us, with them doing the Second Ascent story, and me working on the historical aspect. Things will work themselves out. Don't get yer knickers in a knot. It's all good.

We'll have a beer on the bridge in a few months and laugh about it.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
"I hope you keep their story out of your report, as many have previously stated."

Mr. E - are you one of these people who likes to flog dead horses, or are you just someone who has to say "I told you so", or are you simply blind, or unable to read? There is at least one additional possibility.

I clearly stated my intentions on this post days ago.

PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE.

Also, to be clear, I was not canned nor fired from my Ask Dr. Piton column. The questions weren't really coming in very frequently, and it had simply run its course.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
OK, cool.

Now, did you READ what I wrote a few days ago??? Please answer this question. If your answer is "yes", I have nothing further to say. If your answer is "no", please go back and read what I said.

Because in the post above, you are telling me not to do something that I already told the world I would not do.

This is both annoying and perplexing to me.

So please answer the question, thus telling me which of the four plus one possibilities you are.

Arg. Nobody reads anything. Grumble grumble grumble. You make an unambiguous statement about intent, crystal clear, but does anyone read it? Does anyone synthesize it? No. They read nine hundred subsequent posters, all who disregarded it, and then feel they have to add their two cents' worth.

If I need someone to tell me not to do something that I have already said I will not do, then I will re-marry my control freak schoolteacher bitch ex-wife!!!

Time to move to the Friday night post, dammit.
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
Pete,

Without you this place would truly be intolerable. Carry On !!!


Cracko
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Oh bite me, Cracko! And go here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1054430/The-Friday-Night-Posting-While-Drunk-Post

Geez, I'm oall feisty on but a single glass of Wolf Blass Aussie chard on an empty stomach in 90 degree frankenstein heat that us Hosers just aren't used to. And a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with. What happens when I get my 5.5 drinks in me?! Werner?
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
OK, cool.

Now, did you READ what I wrote a few days ago??? Please answer this question. If your answer is "yes", I have nothing further to say. If your answer is "no", please go back and read what I said.

Because in the post above, you are telling me not to do something that I already told the world I would not do.

This is perplexing to me.

So answer the question, thus telling me which of the four plus one possibilities you are.

Hey Pete,

I know you are in the hot seat, but that post is a but rough. You know how these threads evolve. Finer points are easy to miss. I can say that Mr E is not an as#@&%e, or stupid. The little time I spent with him, I found him very fun and extra accomidating in giving me and my wife a tour of the Yosemite boulders.

Take it easy, and I look forward to reading both of the stories, yours and Kait and Ammons.

Cheers,

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
One route on one wall and 1400 posts......amen.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Am I the only one who sees the story that Pete is proposing (overall history of the route, the controversy behind it, etc. as a feature story that is made more interesting by the 2nd ascent being a recent piece of news) and a detailed account of the 2nd ascent by Ammon/Kait as being two completely different things?

Since it's already been mentioned in this thread, suppose a climber (say Climber X) makes the 1st complete ascent of the North Ridge of Latok I. Obviously one would except Climber X to publish the story of that ascent in Alpinist or wherever. Does that preclude some writer-climber who's never got on the route from writing yet another historical retrospective of the attempts to climb that line?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
Yes - Black Spider - you are the ONE AND ONLY PERSON IN THE WHOLE FREAKING WORLD who seems to "get it". Sheesh.

And I DID get on the route! For Ammon to say that I could not climb it even on his toprope is patently unfair. I made it clear that I cheat-sticked my way up the first pitch, with no help whatsoever from his rope. ["Cheat stuck"?] I then attempted to rehearse the first pitch on my OWN top-rope, and failed miserably. In fact, I never touched Ammon's rope. Tom did. He used it to replace the anchors on the second pitch, after securing permission from Ammon's brother Gabe. I was fully capable of failing miserably on the first pitch with no help from Ammon whatsoever.

Mr. E: Beer is always good! Especially on the bridge. I have been lobbying the shuttle bus drivers to rename stop #4 as The Centre of the Universe. So far I have one guy onside, but we need more.

I am hoping Ammon and Kait will share a little of the 2-4 I will be bringing them!

I have climbed 43 different El Cap routes, and the hooking on Wings of Steel is BY FAR the sickest and hardest I have ever seen. Too hard for me! Ammon has balls of steel, and evidently a fairly resilient shoulder!

Now Ammon - tell us the REAL story about the intra-cranial fluid rumoured to have been dripping from your helmet after your inverted solo fall on Surgeon General. Ammon is bad to the bone, nothing can stop him! Tom Evans told me he saw Ammon dangling unconscious upside-down, and called in the rescue. But Ammon eventually came-to, and not only finished the pitch, he finished the route!! DAMN!

I'm sooooooo happy that Kait and Ammon sent Wings of Steel! 29 years in the making! Woo-hoo!!

What's yer count, El Cap Pirate? How many different El Cap routes??!!
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
Lovegas-
Nice use of "more important ".
Way to drop the "ly".
Really, thanks.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
"I’d like to see him just forge ahead with full Peteness."

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Laughing pretty hard at that one, Neal!

Neal and I have climbed a couple El Cap routes together - barely. So if anyone knows what 'Peteness' means, it's Neal!

Neal is, of course, correct in what he writes above.

However upon this I will stand:

I verily believe Mark and Richard to have told the truth. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, I have found, suggests this. Huge amounts of research, past and present. Inconsistencies exist, of course - it's been 29 years - but the preponderance of evidence that I have found is highly in favour of Richard and Mark, and highly against their detractors. I cannot quantify this, and you will have to consider whether to take my word for it or knott.

Now, pay attention here:

Look back at the beginning of this post, and the many other WoS posts. Look at where I started in 2005. Look at what I thought. Can you read? One assumes so. WILL you read? That is another question.

I started out, like most everyone else, believing what was stated in the Strassman text. How was I to know anything different? [I use 'know' as a copula verb here] The first ascensionists of Wings of Steel were villains, scoundrels and liars.

Then Mark and Richard came on the scene, to once again defend their position. [The buggers are nothing if not tenacious, eh?] In spite of their rantings, their testimony contained the consistencies and the "ring of truth" that their detractors' testimony lacked. This did not go unnoticed by me. So I gave them the benefit of the doubt, met them, questioned them, tried their route, failed, questioned them some more. My conclusions? How much more can I say that I think they're cool, that I believe them, that I believe they were maligned, and that I'm happy to be their friends?

Yet in spite of my fervent, determined and detailed investigations, I am accused of being a sycophant, as though I am somehow being deceived or something. [You can call me most anything you want, but "stupid" is not one of those things] Anyone who has suggested I am a blind yes-man hasn't done his research and followed the story, otherwise he would have seen the change in my heart. Recall I was initially a doubter, a Hater, like the majority. I needed to examine the evidence first. I reached my current position after evidence-based research.

And now that I've examined the evidence, I stand behind my suppositions. And if I'm wrong, well, you guys can sh|t all over me, too.

But I believe Ammon's and Kait's findings will also support that Richard and Mark have told the truth.

"Ah bee-LEEV!"
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
I don't know if this has been posted before and dam if I am going to read through this saga again to find out. Interesting.

2003


PETER ZABROK

"The reason I solo is because I can.
Or is it that nobody wants to climb with me?"



By Sam Sacks

Two things stand out when you meet Peter Zabrok. The first is that he's goofy in a snaggle-toothed, big-grinned, trying-to-please sort of way. The second is that he's much smarter than the pages and pages of website propaganda he's written about himself would lead you to believe.

Still suntanned from his twenty-first ascent and sixth solo up El Cap, Zabrok's butchered climber's hands peek out incongruously from a navy blue suit. His hair is conservatively parted to the side and his tie is neatly knotted, but there is something about Zabrok, and perhaps it is the stuffed animal attached by a carabiner to his briefcase that leaves you wondering if the tie might be a clip-on. Just days away from haul bags, hooks and hundreds of metres of air, Zabrok is back at his day job as an insurance salesman in Oakville, Ontario. And the toy? A lucky charm he hauls up all of his routes named Pee Wee [sic] the Big Wall Crab.

At age 43, Zabrok has aided many of Yosemite's walls with younger hardmen like Chris Geisler and Sean Easton. His resume includes such high-end lines as Reticent Wall (A5 5.8), Jolly Roger (A5 5.10) and Native Son (A4+ 5.9). He has summitted El Cap 21 times by 21 different routes, most recently sending Lunar Eclipse (A4 5.7) and Scorched Earth (A4+ 5.9). But he has also ranted and raved about his career, bolting and an acrimonious divorce, on-line and in print, generating criticism for his brash tirades that has often overshadowed his impressive resume.



"Pass the Pitons" Pete pours another cup of joe at the Round Table - Excalibur - El Capitan



"I have a theory," says Zabrok. "If you are bitchin', you will have detractors. The hidden message here is that I have so many detractors I could be bitchin'. Or I could be a real jerk. Correlation does not necessarily imply causality."

Zabrok grew up in Hamilton and hammered out many of the province's best-loved lines alongside local legends John Kaandorp and Chas Yonge. His career began in 1979 but the bulk of his resume has been completed in what he refers to as his "free climbing retirement," or the years after his divorce, which appears to have been precipitated entirely by his love of climbing.

One of Zabrok's most controversial invectives involved a scathing attack on the first ascensionist who bolted Moby Fly, a short wall at the Niagara Escarpment's Cow Crag which Zabrok wrongly believed had been climbed clean by Dave Lanman. The bout turned into a longstanding feud between sport and trad climbers in the area. Today, with almost 20 years of hindsight, Zabrok is his usual barrel of contradictions, quick to admit his error and just as quick to pounce on the bolting malaise:

"There was nothing I could do to make up my wrong to the guy and he let me off the hook. Praise God and hallelujah," he says, wiping his brow. And then a moment later, he says, "I believe bolts to be cheating. I believe that the indiscriminate use of bolts can be indicative of cowardice. I believe that if you can't climb a route from the ground up you should leave it to someone with balls."

Despite the verbal attacks and the fact that during our two-hour conversation he calls three women including this interviewer, "hon," there is something charming at work in Peter Zabrok. In addition to his prolific caving and climbing exploits, Zabrok has a dubious alter ego named Dr. Piton, a derivative of his Valley nickname, "Pass the Pitons Pete." Dr. Piton, who Zabrok refers to in the third person, is a self-appointed wall doctor who offers advice on big wall climbing on and off-line in exchange for "help" in the form of novices who haul his bags to the base of routes. Much of this know-how comes from a book Zabrok edited by his infamous mentor, Chongo (Charles V. Tucker) who has written a 600-page tome entitled "Chongo's Complete Book of Big Wall Climbing."

"Dr. Piton writes cutting-edge big wall technology which has never been published elsewhere," says Zabrok. "There is a big vacuum in big wall and aid climbing information and Dr. Piton's fundamentals help more people get to the summit than ever before. When I got to Camp 5 this spring, there were five people waiting with empty bags to carry my stuff to the base. I used to have to pay people to do that."

Zabrok may be a guru to some, but he's quick to acknowledge his reputation for sloth. His big wall haul bag includes a ghetto blaster on which he cranks AC/DC, a solar-powered shower, a bottle of Napa Valley cabernet, and several cans of Guinness. He tries to avoid sending more than one pitch in a day and no trip is complete without his coffee press. "One of my goals is to achieve new levels of big wall leisure," says Zabrok.

But how does Zabrok justify nailing a big wall crack or riveting when he won't clip a bolt? "That's actually a good paradox," says Zabrok. "What am I doing clipping bolts on big walls or placing copperheads or pins - don't those scar the rock? Yeah, but you haven't drilled anything."




Zabrok makes the first ascent of Resplendence at Old Baldy in 1982


On the recent retrobolting of a Zabrok route named Resplendence the eponymous Peter has this to say: "It is a sad comment on the state of affairs of Ontario climbing that somebody would simply walk up and bolt something without giving it a second thought." The bolts have since been removed but were they filled to Zabrok's specifications with epoxy and rock dust? "I don't know," says Zabrok, "I'm far too lazy to go find out."


Sam Sacks is a climber and writer who lives in Toronto.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
^^ Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!

Profile published in Gripped Magazine. A perfect example of Peteness.

And it also has zero relevance to this post.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
And now that I've examined the evidence

WHAT evidence? You haven't been up there.

Edit: Pete, you should have just asked us and we would have been happy to work with you. We were pretty bummed to hear what you wrote before we even got onto Aquarian... put yourself in our situation and tell me you wouldn't be a little PO'd.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Ammon,

There are two kinds of evidence.

Firstly there is the hard evidence, the evidence of what's up there, on the rock. I have only seen the first two pitches, so I have only seen 2/13ths of the hard evidence.

But to me, this isn't a story about a piece of rock, it's a story about people - Mark and Richard. And this is the evidence that I have examined backwards, forwards, and sideways. This is the second kind of evidence - a sort of legal-historical proof. I can't walk up to the base of El Cap and prove to you that Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburgh Address, or that Nero really was the emporor of Rome. I need to perform a different kind of proof for that.

The evidence that I have examined suggests extremely strongly that Mark and Richard have told the truth. I have found no evidence that they haven't. This is the second form of evidence, the legal-historical kind. This is "my" evidence. But it is incomplete without "your" evidence, which is the first kind, the hard kind, mentioned above.

I really hope that you haven't found evidence to suggest Mark and Richard have been untruthful, too. And I really hope you'll tell us what you found, and soon!

Because the hard evidence of what you found, is really the key to the whole story. The story is two parts - the rock story, and the people story.

Edit: Yes, Ammon, I know you and Kait are/were P.O'd, and she will tell you that I apologized to her the other night by way of Facebook instant message, that it was unintentional on my part to hurt your feelings re. the news post on R&I.

Ammon and Kait, it was never my intent to scoop you, nor steal your story. Please - if you are a little more sober than I am currently! - read my timeline above. Please understand how the sequence of events came together relative to the magazine, my idea to write the story, my immediate email to Annie. It only occured to me to write the story when you were up there, and the very moment I got the OK to do so, I immediately contacted Kait's mom to tell her. I simultaneously wrote the press release. I never even thought to ask you guys, and I'm REALLY SORRY dude. That was never my intent. I should have asked you, I didn't, and I apologize.

Similarly, it was never my intent to talk about the Second Ascent, because I know nothing of it. That is, has been, and always will be, yours and Kait's story to tell.

Please may I state for the record - I have always wanted to, and still want to, and still hope we can, work collaboratively on this! There is still time. Our deadline is Wednesday. I can type like a mofo, in case you haven't noticed. Much of my research is done, and I can get my 5000 words written in time.

Your story is a sidebar to mine, yet it is fundamental. Or more likely mine is a sidebar to yours. The there is a synergy here, where the whole two together are greater than the sum of the parts separately.

Edit: In fact, I can type so fast, you and Kait could tell me the story over the phone, I could type it out as you speak, email it back to you, you could correct it, we could edit it, back and forth, finally back to you, then you could submit as yours. I feel bad about what happened, and would gladly do what I can to help. And don't forget your photos! Good value in those!

I think that if you and I and Kait work together, we will have a truly awesome story. I would love to discuss this with you, via phone or email or instant message. I am fully supportive of you guys getting your say, and have told the magazine as much. He wants to get your story, pay you for it, and your photos, and everything. I think it'll be a great story, and Duane Raleigh told me he thinks so too. He also told me to STFU, but I still believe in this.

I hope we can work together. I would love to work together on this. I hope we can come to some sort way to make this happen.

Read the posts above, and you will see many people asking us for a combined effort. I think it would be very cool. I believe in negotiation, reconciliation and foregiveness.

And beers. Beers always help.

And once again, I'm really thrilled you guys sent this, cuz I sure as hell couldn't.

Cheers and beers,
and with Olive Branch extended to Kait and Ammon,
Pete
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
Petey, regarding your statement,

Arg. Nobody reads anything. Grumble grumble grumble. You make an unambiguous statement about intent, crystal clear, but does anyone read it? Does anyone synthesize it? No. They read nine hundred subsequent posters, all who disregarded it, and then feel they have to add their two cents' worth.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. As I posted a couple pages ago:

One way or another, I want to read Pete's article regarding the history of Wings of Steel just as much as I want to read Ammon and Kait's account of the SA. As far as I'm concerned, this controversy's been around almost as long as I have, there's room enough for two articles that I see as complementary to each other.

I do agree with the assertion that it would be good for PTPP to stick to what he knows, and not comment on the SA - it seems to me that having solely earned that accomplishment, it's Ammon and Kait's tale to tell, and only they may speak of it authoritatively.

At the same time, and given his legwork into personally investigating the climb (as reported in this thread over the past 5 years), I do believe that PTPP has a great deal of information about Wings of Steel, its history, and its controversy. I would like to see both articles published concurrently.

So, as you can see, in addition to reading and understanding your post, I also look forward to an article written by you on the history of Wings of Steel, alongside Ammon and Kait's second ascent report.

However, I rather suspect that nobody read my post either, on account of it being too damn sensible. Thus, as per Knuckles' suggestion, I'm having a drink, and then going back to edit it with some kind of unfounded slander against Bridman and cause a controversy so that hopefully someone will also read the saner and more logical parts about it as well.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
"Why didn't you simply wait and ask them BEFORE you made your decision Pete?"

Cuz I was an impetuous dumbass. As per above, it was a mistake, and I apologized.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 22, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
There appears to be occasional confusion as to the history of the Wings of Steel threads. Here is what we have found as of this date:


Wings of Steel Thread List as of 7/22/11 (2911 posts)
 
#1 Gunkie
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=0&mr=0 5/17/05 -- present
1421 posts and counting
 
#2 Werner
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=114602 11/1/05 -- 3/12/11
109 posts
 
#3 The Fet
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=147272&f=0&b=0  1/30/06 – 4/28/06
83 posts
 
#4 Tom
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=186142&f=0&b=0 4/28/06 – 5/2/06
71 posts
 
#5? XXIV (a.k.a. part one) Russ
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=231718&f=0&b=0 8/2/06 – 8/7/06
209 posts
 
#6? XXV (a.k.a. part two) Russ
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=234216&tn=220 8/7/06 – 8/11/06
236 posts
 
#7? XXVI (a.k.a. part three) Russ
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/237614/WoS-PTPP-part-XXVI-continued-from-XXV  8/11/06  – 1/5/08
436 posts
 
#8? XXVII Grossman
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&tn=0&mr=0 1/15/08 – 11/10/10
 346 posts
 
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
I don't see the second ascent as a "sidebar" as Pete mentioned. Poor choice of words there methinks (Pete should blame that on the alcohol or risk digging his hole deeper). Far as I'm concerned, out of principle alone, it's the second ascent that should take the lead in any article...with the history stuff woven into the whole blow by blow spray-fest. =) We're climbers dammit, not dusty old historians.

The press release by Pete stole the thunder from A&K. Lame. His apology seems appropriate. Hope things get patched up between the parties and all his rambling doesn't get in the way. =) Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces.

Quoted for truth.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Everybody around here wants to read both stories. Be even cooler if they can join forces.
I agree, a collaborative effort on all involved would be awesome, everyone has a part of the story it seems. Even the crapper could tell their tale!
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:33am PT
I look forward to reading both of the stories, [Pete's] and Kait and Ammons.

I'll read Pete's for sure... but seems like we already know what slant that will have. Most interested in reading Ammon and Kait's story since I have no idea what it will be. I kinda hope they don't get any climber's help writing it. Then I would like klk to write a summary. :)

I still contend that there was a controvery once anyone made their way up that slab (unless they were free climbing it). And, recent developments and articles don't change that. Whether Ammon did the SA or not, whether Pete thinks he has a story worth telling, whether the FA party was treated badly or not... there still was a controversy regarding style and ethics. Again, due to the testosterone (estrogen?) blow out things did become aggrandized... but if that hadn't of happened it wouldn't change the fact that something highly controversial had just occurred.

What I don't like seeing, in my conversation with modern climbers, is that most don't care about what happened before them. They don't even get that they are riding on the coattails of those very ones. That if no one had climbed or developed climbing gear before... that these modern climbers would walk into Yosemite Valley... look around... think about climbing something... reconsider... and go home.

And, as for the clashing of camps... that's what we've had for self-regulation for many years. And, to a certain extent it does keep us from completely derailing. Ethics and style need to be discussed... I'm much more interested in that than the personal lives of Richard, Mark and Pete. And, I cringe at the posts with quotes or comments about their personal lives.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:47am PT
I don't know much about the business side of climbing publications but I'd love to see Ammon and Kait's story done up Alpinist magazine style. Take the time to write it well, maybe grab a good photographer and head to the Valley for some hi-grade shots of El Cap and the route, some of Ammon and Kait, and add those to the pics that Ammon and Kait took during the SA.
I dig it.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:51am PT
Lovegasoline: Sounds exactly what we have in mind for our documentary film... you'll have to give us some time, though.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:58am PT
But to me, this isn't a story about a piece of rock, it's a story about people - Mark and Richard. And this is the evidence that I have examined backwards, forwards, and sideways. This is the second kind of evidence - a sort of legal-historical proof. I can't walk up to the base of El Cap and prove to you that Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburgh Address, or that Nero really was the emporor of Rome. I need to perform a different kind of proof for that.

The evidence that I have examined suggests extremely strongly that Mark and Richard have told the truth. I have found no evidence that they haven't. This is the second form of evidence, the legal-historical kind. This is "my" evidence.

. . .

you and Kait could tell me the story over the phone, I could type it out as you speak, email it back to you, you could correct it, we could edit it, back and forth, finally back to you, then you could submit as yours. I feel bad about what happened, and would gladly do what I can to help.

Yes! I suggest that you also be credited as a member of the second-ascent party. You have put so much of your soul into this that you really need to be given ample recognition now that someone or other has climbed the thing.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:58am PT
"Yes! I suggest that you also be credited as a member of the second-ascent party."

Bollocks! Have you been drinking???? [hope so, it's Friday night] The only recognition I seek is the recognition that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are not the villains and scoundrels they have been made out to be.

As for the movie, I want Steve Buscemi to play me. I'll loan him my cheat stick and everything.

But who will they cast in the part of Mimi?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:20am PT
I'd like to hear from fresh voices with fresh perspectives and fresh information

Or not. This might have been important to a few people three decades ago, but it really doesn't signify much today. As KLK pointed out, Yosemite Valley was no longer the center of the climbing universe when this all happened, and to invest anything more than casual interest in it now is... well... odd. To say the least.
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:27am PT
The pendulum swings left and right crossing the center.

When it's all over you'll be back in the center.

Unless you're stupid ...... :-)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:35am PT
I really liked reading Ed Viesturs and David Roberts book on K2. I think that style would work best - commentary on the events by Pete, first hand accounts from Richard/Mark and Kait/Ammon.


Facts are facts, Ammon and Kait know what they came across and how they felt, but anyone that has studied history knows that the telling is often the most important part of it.

Just my .02, I am a complete bum and can't climb for sh!t, but I find this story fascinating and a good study in sociology. Probably lots of other people do to, or so the ~3000 posts tell me.


Pete seems like a nice guy, and I met Ammon on the approach to the captain once, dude was humping loads like 5 beers in... animal LOL
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:48am PT
WOW!!!

A film? That would rule! And to think I was hoping for a few photos...

Personally, I can think of nothing better than a collaboration between Pete, the first ascent team, the second ascent team, and anyone else involved in any way (including detractors!)...putting together the ultimate detailed story (film?) of the WOS route!

That would be AWESOME!!!
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:54am PT
Aw, heck...

Pete and the second ascent team would be just fine...
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:01am PT
I don't understand what the big deal is? This route is only 12 inches long on my el cap poster.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:04am PT
you know, in my day, i have ben called more than once on some BS-
and i may at times be guilty as charged-
but this much is true for sure-

you cannot BS a BS'er!



so...




really pedro?
you NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED that you'd ever write about WOS after it had a 2nd?



what's the line?

oh right-

"bwa-haha...bwa-haha", or sumsuch.




1) lets look back at just the last few pages of posts here and see how many times you comment on your VAST amount of personal research, so that was all just just for the sake of your own curiosity then? or perhaps to write really well footnoted posts on stupidtopo?

2) lets look back at your life (or your life online anyway) and see if there was ever anything you THOUGHT you knew about that you actually DIDN'T write about, somewhere, at some time...

3) let's look back at your posts on the topic and see if it's a hard case to make that you'd LOVE to "clear mark and richard's good names", as it were- and how would you do so without writing about it?

4) love to see someone look back and pick out all the very specific questions you were sending in this thread at kait's mom, and see just exactly when you were asking for which specifics, and to know at the same time exactly when she had rcvd that email that you were writing it up for a check...

5) say- i sure wonder if you can get dwayne to come post up here and state for the record that your future article and that so-called "press release" was entirely his idea? cause i am gonna hafta call...



yeah.

you guessed it!









b u l l s h i t






on that story

(or all those stories)















as for your apology to K+A, it matters little what i think of it, but on 1st read, my take was that you are less sorry than interested in latching on and profiting from their experience.

(what, they cannot type? they need your editing, or your influence n their tale? for what exactly???)



side bar?


"SIDE BAR?"


seriously?


you have no article, no story, not without the SA.
nada

heck if you did, you'd have written it long ago rather than argue about it endlessly online,




klk tried to say that (as i have long suggested too) "context matters" here.
this all happened in a place and time that we are not currently in, so we naturally see things differently, and that matters... and while posters since seem to find those posts by klk interesting, i don't see anyone getting that point entirely- you just simply cannot go back 3 decades in time, and you cannot renderany meaningful judgement n 2011, you JUST CAN'T.

the die has been cast
the game is over
the cookie has crumbled
the sun has set
the deal is sealed


and frankly, i thought klk did a fairly even minded and level headed job of saying just that- what happened happened. nobody really argues they were treated fairly, but still, those that treated them in a certain way did so because, well, because they had a huge LOVE for the mountain, not because they had a hatred for outsiders. the defacto culture was there to protect finite resources, not to make doods kiss up to jim bridwell.


as for dave turner, he went on that FA trip to pattagucci on (at least partially) an AAC grant (thank you very much), and one well deserved because he had proven himself extensively on hard aid solos, again and again and again, and in a little quarry called YV. comparing the WoS guys to him is almost as stupid as comparing them to harding.


lastly, as far as just coming clean with your own self, your own story, your own interests in the whole WoS world (as a poster or two upthread has suggested you should try to do more often):

why are you lately ignoring the once prominent issue you'd write about, richard's and mark's deep christian faith? isn't it true that your shared faith is the roriginal motivator for you in this story? lots of climbers and lots of non climbers have been wronged or slandered or treated unfairly in life, but you got on the WoS bandwagon (or perhaps created it yourself?) after your being born again, which i believe was not that long after all the explosive (and prominent, and quite public) accusations toward you and your treatment of or behavior toward under aged girls online.
(right?)

i mean, whether or not any of that stuff about you and young (really young) girls was true (i won't even go there in this post)...
IT IS AT LEAST UNDENIABLE, AND NOT IN ANY WAY AN ATTACK ON YOU to simply say that you were cast out from rockclimbing.com after having held court over there for like a decade, posting leagues of "your" beta, only to loose access to those writings, and to find yourself unwelcome there in general.
(right?)

that's no attack, it's just history, wouldn't you concur?
even though i guess some people reading this thread now might not have been climbing that long, or might not have been reading climbing forums long enough to know it.
(right?)

so that just happened- what- like 7 yrs ago? 8 yrs ago?
(be honest pedro, come on now, i bet you know damn well what year it was, dontchya?)

and that was pretty much when you started writing your stuff on ST, right?


so i have always thought wrt WoS that you were really likely to be identifying with richard and mark in their WoS drama because you were, for all to see also "ridden out of town on a rail", weren't you? and you also would like to have those very dark, very public stains upon you washed away by time, right?



so why does it matter?
and why am i bothering to post all that?

because you made your conclusions on WoS long ago, and you have been "fixing the facts around the case" for years, and it's just plain bullshit to say it's any different.

whether or not your conclusions on anything happen to be true, if they are, it's a mere coincidence, since you reached them on faith alone, or at least before you had any evidence to base them on, so whatever you may have gathered, you gathered in support of your own impressions and opinions, just as you did in the "press release" in R&I, where you pushed your agenda without any actual "evidence" (your word, again).

you are, and have long been, highly motivated to wipe away the stains on richard and mark from their WoS days. you are, and have long been, highly motivated to try and clear their names in some way, if at all possible. but what you are doing is so transparently soiled by your own flawed character that you cannot even just walk in one straight line.

TKings.. alluded above that it seemed unlikely you had no idea who'd written that passage, the passage you brought up as significant but then claimed not to know the author of-
so to go one step further, i am calling BS, you are just not wanting to say so, andyou were wanting it to look like someone else was pointing at grossman, and not you (which is not only transparent but also just dumb, cause who cares anyway?)

and then to ammon and kait, you are ACTUALLY trying to say that you were never gonna write somtehing up? and then wham, your editor just came out of the blue suggested it all to you?
just like that? well sh#t pete, what a freakin coincidence man! i mean here you are, by your own account in this thread, "a pretty damn good writer", and here you have been doing all these mounds of personal research on your own time, just out of sheer curiosity, and here you used to write for some mag but got cancelled, and low and behold... wow, you must have the big guy in the sky lookin out for you, eh?


...and i suppose next you are gonna try to act the part of some slicked back hair insurance salesman and try to sell us on the idea that whatever YOU conclusions are on the "controversial route", the "side bar" SA, and the "people story" that surrounds it all, folks of all stripes should just accept those conclusions, YOUR conclusions, despite your OBVIOUS slant on this topic, as somehow valid, or as being based in some way upon... "EVIDENCE"...???







i'll tell you what, maybe there is such a thing as intelligent design after all!



(hey look at that, i turned this into a funny post with a punchline at the end!!! =)

cheers,
-matt
Fogarty

climber
BITD
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:10am PT
Game over, night night.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:12am PT
What a Blast!!!
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:19am PT
oh jeez.

face ... meet palm.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:44am PT
the faith itself is not the point-

one point is that he's a driven advocate trying to paint hizself a historian, and the other is that he's kinda generally a sleaze and has been so for a long long time. even now when trying to clear his friends' historical skidz up, he is just full of it in all sorts of ways, and it smells like poop






















(poop from a bull, to be specific)
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:48am PT
Are Matt and Base1361 the same person?

From an earlier post by Prod...and I'm wondering the same thing!

Pete, it would be fascinating to hear your take on these guys (this guy?)...

Lots of hate posts...wtf???
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:52am PT
Part of me wonders, is Matt the new Richard Jensen?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:59am PT
you can spew all the conjecture you like, but funny that none of you spewing post under your own name, as i do.


i got nothin to hide, and unlike most, i am crystal clear about my intentions.

once a * always a *, and perhaps i just am like an elephant, as much as some *** might wanna reinvent hizself after people tend to move on or forget, or just don't care anymore.





***'s are dangerous, and it cannot be fixed, not even by HIM.
















keep your daughter's close kiddos!



so, just consider me like the internet's little reminder
bmacd

Social climber
100% Canadian
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:03am PT
whats going on did someone get tasered ? I haven't been watching the ST soaps much at all lately.

12 inches ? 300 hook moves in 12 inches ? Huh ??

I suppose I better read the whole thread …..

Congrats to the Pirate and Kate !!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:14am PT
Good point, Matt. My name is Jeff Schulze, nice to meet you. Would you like a hug? Because we have known each other off and on for like three years, so...

*Hugs Matt*

We'll get it all figured out between us all at some point, yeah? =)

Edit: Oh, and the only intent that I have that I want to be crystal clear on, is that Mark Smith is a damn good person, who I am proud and grateful to have had as part of my life for so long, even if he is a f*#&ing dork.

Beyond that, I would very much like to see him and Jensen exonerated, but honestly, that would be icing on the cake.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:19am PT
dood-
you know that's what they also point to when they talk about curing gay people of being gay people- i say that's just innate, as is the other thing.


so perhaps you are not exactly wrong, it just maybe that the issue is not in the heart after all...






edit-
if you say so jeff. your name does not stir anything loose, forgive me.
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:34am PT
HOLY FUKC, this is the MOBY DICK of threads!!!

.
.
.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:35am PT
Matt, don't you remember, about three years ago? We had it out on these forums, then realized we had more in common than not, decided to make up, then went on to fight crime together? I remember it all vividly, except for that last part. I'll try to dig up the posts.

All I'm saying is, at this point, I'd really like to see everyone on all sides of the issue start moving toward each other, rather than taking up defensive positions against each other. We're all getting too damn old for this, I'm thinking. I'd like nothing more than for the whole lot involved to grab a beer, allow for the fact that we're all human beings and capable of saying, doing, or thinking things that others don't agree with, and allow for that to be acceptable.

I'm not saying anyone has to give up their point of view, let's just allow some time, space, and forgiveness between each other, and wait to see what A&K have to say about their experience on the climb.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:39am PT
Wings of Butter. Let's get over it. I wonder what that Honnold kid is up to these days. Let's leave a little room for the future.
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42am PT
I'm still stuck on the idea proposed earlier on,

That the flakes might have 'washed away in the rain' in the intervening years, making the route unclimbable in the way that the FA was climbed.

Since similar rain has been falling on the wall for thousands of years, why would the rain of this particular 30 year period make conditions appreciably different?




Also, I liked this line from RURPS' hilarious interpretive dialogue:

I will Prebail!!!!@#$!#$




Carry on....
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42am PT
Ohhhh boy. Self-Destruct sequence initiated...
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:52am PT
so dood-
riddle me this:
what happened to all the souls of men born after christ, but in distant lands? and why did "god" let eons of generations of his children in so many (notably, mostly non-caucasian) civilizations go through life without the possibility of being saved? why did he(?) spread his message globally via such corrupt and insidious messengers as the church(es) so often showed themselves to be? and lastly, why did god then leave those golden plates buried in new york?


get past that stuff and hooking your way up el cap is simple



edit-

forgiveness is all well and good, but the proof is in the pudding.

any chance you got a hot 14 yr old daughter? if so, send her on a month long visit to cannukville, and then maybe you'll have proved at least your own faith?






















(or your poor judgement, perhaps, instead)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:58am PT
Matt - dose tihs mean.... no cybr?/

...forgiveness is all well and good, but the proof is in the pudding.

Look, I'm just giving you my arrogant human opinion (Werner can attest to (and has experience with giving) that), all I'm asking is, rather than trolling, flaming, and accusing Bridwell of being unable to climax unless he's choking a prostitute, why don't we wait to receive that pudding? A&K are working on their article, why make this issue more absurd a spectacle than it already is? Why the need to engage this as a religious issue, a debate on homosexuality, and the status of one another's 14 year old daughters? Why don't we just don the tights, put on the masks, and go fight crime together like the old days that never happened, until such time as Ammon and Kait up and reveal what their experience was of the route?

You disagree with my own thoughts about Mark and Richard, and that's okay. You disagree with my thoughts about PTPP (though at times he is somewhat inconsiderate, even if he is generally awesome), and that's okay. I can understand you feel passionately about what you think, I think a lot of us here do. I propose we allow each other to be wrong every so often, and wait to see the proof that pudding provides before we go for each other's throat any more than has already been done.
tonesfrommars

Trad climber
California
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:08am PT
Scout 2

Trad climber
Placerville
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:18am PT
patiently waiting for the Vid/Documentry. like to see An interview with Mark /Richard and Ammon and kait. Get their perspective.From the horses mouth.

Then we will have to find something else to do like get back to climbing.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 04:44am PT
Aw, mittens. Matt, did you get so drunk as to pass out?

Edit: Poor guy. To be continued in the morning, then.

Also, tonesfrommars, while I appreciate the dog anus, I wonder what the greater metaphorical and spiritual meaning of it is?




Oh my God. Why are we so afraid...?
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:20am PT
Message to Ammon and Kait.

You 2 have been there and done it. In fine style and good time.
Mark and Richard have been there and done it 1st. You 2 had it the harshest. with shitbags.

IN 30 years I would think that only these 4 would be able to write something about the story. And based on what they remember about the route/history, THEY go interview SG/MIMI ect... The shitters, the WHO-gives a SHitters ect...

At the time of all this shitting in the Valley pete was probably coming out of the closet at 14y.o and didn't know the difference from naval jelly and KY jelly.

Look into Kickstarter films, kinda what their doing with Carl Boenish and BASE. document the journey, jokers, joy and kick'n ass 30 years later..

Ammon/Kait----- you 2 ROCK!!! Ammon call me. when you read this. Lets get out next month if you have time.

3,2,1,Cya
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:45am PT
The story I wish to pursue is the story of Mark and Richard, the past and present, the smear campaign, and so on. To me, that's the real story, because it affected their entire lives for a quarter-century.

The only recognition I seek is the recognition that Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are not the villains and scoundrels they have been made out to be.

I see a contradiction. PtPP cannot both write an investigative article about “the story of Mark and Richard” if he has already decided on the conclusion. I think that’s Matt’s point, too. The story is there to be written, but it requires a vigorous, open-minded approach. Plus, how can one vindicate the honesty of the first ascent party's methods until AFTER Kait and Ammon tell their story.

Jensen and Smith’s persecution is hardly uniquely nasty. Aside from Robbins berating Warren Harding, who was not really an outsider, it probably began with Harvey T. Carter, whose ideas about pitons--leaving them in place, so as to protect the rock--were utterly alien to the locals in the 1960s; he took the original Sentinel(?) summit register and made off with it to Colorado (this really upset people!), argued loudly and at length with Roper, among others, about ethics and rating systems, finally sold his magazine “Climbing,” expressly to avoid the “fistfight” (his word) he could see he was going to get into with some California climbers.

Ed Cooper was vilified for his lengthy sieging of, what was the name of it again, Dihedral Wall?

I’d forgotten about the Hall of Mirrors. Was it really that bad? But Duane Raleigh put in his time in the Ditch, he should remember.

Another persecuted climber was of course Ray Jardine.

But the closest analogy is surely with Skinner and Piana. They, like Jensen and Smith, spent weeks camping on El Cap, obsessing over stupidly tiny bits of rock. Skinner and Piana were persecuted, accused of lying, cheating, etc, etc. It was ugly. Shortly after, they did a slideshow tour; I showed up skeptical, and left the slideshow at Boulder’s Gerry’s Mountain Sports still no clearer on whether these friendly, humorous, personable characters had, as claimed, climbed the Salathe Wall free, or whether they were, as the rumors insisted, hangdogging, lying cheats. And their photographer, Bill Hatcher, would only roll his eyes and say, Yup, I saw some AMAZING things up there!

But in the intervening years--decades now--the fiddly details have become unimportant. They helped usher in the era of freeing big walls. Plus, they went on to climb many more hard, free routes. Their reputations rest on a hefty resume of climbs, books, considerable contributions to the climbing community. Same with Ed Cooper, who, in 2011, is better known for his wonderful photography, and a long climbing career in the Northwest. Harvey Carter’s reputation rests on decades of climbing around Colorado and the Utah desert. Ray Jardine is remembered for freeing the 5.13 Phoenix, and his invention of, or perfection of, Friends--genius, really. The Hall of Mirrors guys have an impressive resume of respected first ascents, centered around Tuolumne.

Jensen and Smith?

What else HAVE they been up in the last quarter century?

Maybe the real story is how the most effective way to deal with persecution is to move on, prove by example that you are greater than the petty accusations.

Surely Jensen and Smith must be tired of this whole “victim” aura that allegedly surrounds them. I know they weren’t kicked out of the Valley, or anything like that. I remember meeting them as they were starting up Sea of Dreams and GoBee and I were starting, or collecting dropped gear from PO Wall. They were the Riverside Boys, back then. We had a good conversation, they seemed friendly, fully competent, thorough, if amazingly unconcerned with their rate of progress up the wall. Surely they have moved on, done other things that reflect something of the tenacity they showed on WoS?

Cheers,
Crusher
Calvinclimber

Big Wall climber
Bend, OR
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:58am PT

GDavis- "...commentary on the events by Pete, firsthand accounts from Richard/Mark and Kate/Ammon."

thaDood- "I agree, this would be the most comphrehensive, and best suit the readers at large(majority of which don't post or lurk here). It would be good to see a joint and collaborative submission...let the healing begin!!"

This seems like the best approach to me.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
I appreciate your grasp of history Crusher, the care you put into Desert Rock is apparent in that last post, measured and entertaining at the same time, while generous to the quirky obsessive individuals climbers can be.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 23, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
By the time you resolve who the hell is gong to write what. The third and fourth ascent will have already occurred and no one will give a dam Geez. Got to admit this thread can be entertaining.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Crusher -

Surely Jensen and Smith must be tired of this whole “victim” aura that allegedly surrounds them. I know they weren’t kicked out of the Valley, or anything like that. I remember meeting them as they were starting up Sea of Dreams and GoBee and I were starting, or collecting dropped gear from PO Wall. They were the Riverside Boys, back then. We had a good conversation, they seemed friendly, fully competent, thorough, if amazingly unconcerned with their rate of progress up the wall. Surely they have moved on, done other things that reflect something of the tenacity they showed on WoS?

I think what Jensen and Smith are tired of is not so much the "victim" aura, as honestly being victims. Victims of persecution, double standards, prejudgment, and stigma that they can't seem to get out from under no matter what they do to try to resolve the situation. I can't speak for the other cases you mentioned and in fact, I don't think I personally could - or would - in good taste compare one climber's experience of persecution to anothers. However I do know that Smith and Jensen have, any way you slice it, faced intense, unrelenting persecution and prejudice over the past 30 years regarding this climb such that revealing their names or climb history in anything rock climbing related has led to their being harassed, refused sale of gear, and even being threatened with severe bodily harm and destruction of property.

I know Smith very well and I know of his frustration and Jensen himself has been very vocal about this exact subject, in fact you can read his own thoughts about the experience if you go back to his responses at the start of this thread. One of the things that he addresses is the notion that they should "move on and stop playing the victim", a notion I know causes them a great deal of frustration. Reason being, as they have stated, it sets up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario whereby if they do not speak up in order to inform others of the details of the climb they are seen as responsible for perpetuating the slander on themselves for not resisting it or speaking out against it. But if they DO speak out against it, they are then derided for "not moving on", "not letting go", "playing the victim even after all this time"…

I understand what you're saying about them demonstrating through further climbing endeavors that their detractors are wrong, and so I think I should point out that as can also be seen by reading their responses at the start of this thread, they have done a large number of other high profile climbs. My understanding is that the way they performed these climbs often received similar slander and rumors of ethical violations linked to their being the Wings of Steel boys - something that you can actually see in action near the start of this thread. In fact, one of the things that Jensen mentions doing early on in response to the stigma of Wings of Steel was, going after the toughest climbs around and beating them simply to show that yes, he had the chops to lick any climb out there. He says that eventually he moved on from this phase after a certain length of time due to it not being very effective in changing anyone's opinion, and also the realization that what was really important in climbing was what it personally meant for him, and no one else. I know that for a very long time that's precisely what he - and Smith - decided on, and rather than trying to make a name for themselves so to speak, both simply climbed for their personal enjoyment and fulfillment.

I ask, without sarcasm, am I making my points here? Is what I'm saying so far generally clear and understandable? Hopefully what I'm saying reflects that it isn't Smith and Jensen's natural inclination or desire to play the role of the victim. I do know that both have damn well tried to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, without much success. I do know that both eventually moved on from that and began focusing simply on what the experience meant for them as climbers. But seriously, even 30 years later that stigma, that prejudice, that persecution still looms over them both quite heavily within the rock climbing community, as again, can be seen by reviewing the start of this thread.

The advent of the internet has given them an unparalleled chance to get out from under that stigma by informing, educating, and rebutting those who through misinformation and misunderstanding cast them in the role of the villain. Given that opportunity, (and also partially in reaction to the "their silence demonstrates their acknowledgment of guilt" argument) they took it and ran with it, using the start of this very thread as the platform on which to let themselves be heard. And now, they get to face down the whole "why haven't you gotten over it already" thing, which as I said, they both find particularly frustrating.

I would also say that this role has hardly been the big, defining characteristic of their lives. Both have had, to my way of seeing things, incredibly positive, fulfilling, and productive lives. Mark Smith is a highly venerated teacher and family man, and I speak from experience as his former pupil that he has had an incredibly powerful, positive impact on the lives of his students.

Again, I would recommend reviewing a lot of what's been said at the start of this thread, as I think it more adequately addresses the statements in your post. And again, I ask without sarcasm, am I generally making my points here?

Also, Smith, Jensen, if you see this and I'm speaking out of place here anywhere, please, by all means correct me.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
Someone on here once claimed Jensen and Smith "attacked Jim Beyer" (or something like that) by downgrading Intifada and reporting it wasn't as hard as Beyer claimed, which gives an idea of the mindset some people have when discussing them or their ascents. There are a more than a few posters who are hell-bent on defending the sanctity of the sacred cows of aid climbing and their signature climbs.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
And again, I ask without sarcasm, am I generally making my points here?

Da_Dweeb, yes you are!

That is a really nicely worded response. Probably kinder than my recent post deserves. You presented a clear statement of their dilemma.

Thanks.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Awesome! Glad to hear it. Thanks, Crunch!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Hey BlackSpider, you can read Jensen's own words here:

http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html

First person opinion is always better then than hearsay.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
"I ask, without sarcasm, am I making my points here?"

What point is there in making points?

Your reasonable explanations and logical arguments have no place here in this climbing forum. They will be completely disregarded, and personal insults will soon be hurled at you.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
Your reasonable explanations and logical arguments have no place here in this climbing forum.

I'm sorry, Petey! You're right, hang on a second while I find a picture of a dog's anus to put up here!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
Pete wrote:
In fact, I can type so fast, you and Kait could tell me the story over the phone, I could type it out as you speak, email it back to you, you could correct it, we could edit it, back and forth, finally back to you, then you could submit as yours. I feel bad about what happened, and would gladly do what I can to help.

Pete seems pretty contrite for jumping the gun with the press release. I hope they can either find a way to work together or we can hear from Ammon and Kait and then get Pete's story about Richard and Mark as well. I'd like to hear from the detractors too and see if they have had any change of heart.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Did I hear something about golden plates in New York?

...can't be, this is a Seventh Day Adventists vs. Pagans vs. Evangelicals vs. nihilists thread.


Please keep it clean, Matt...you don't want me on this thread !
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
Please keep it clean, Matt...you don't want me on this thread !

Please keep it down, Jennie...Matt's still sleeping it off!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 23, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
Ha-ha-ha :-)
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
Do the FAionistas actually want PTPTP to rake their story through the climbing tabloids again?

I thought they had moved on, both professionally and climbing-wise.


After all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 23, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
So Pete is going to do a history article about WoS and Ammon and Kait are going to do an article about the second ascent? Is that right?

Great idea if you ask me.

One article wading through all the muck of the last 30 years and another article telling their story of an El Cap route they climbed that happens to be controversial but also their story of the second ascent.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 23, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
2nd what Mark said^^^ Write the article Ammon; write the article Pete. I'm very much looking forward to what both you guys have to say.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
and hey, if the movie is a success, maybe next those bigwallin superheroes can go clear the names of those golden plate findin, religion sprouting, multiple wifin, gay marriage hatin, later day saints???




"Lord" only knows they have had their fair share of persecution, isn't that right jen???
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 23, 2011 - 09:04pm PT

and hey, if the movie is a success, maybe next those bigwallin superheroes can go clear the names of those golden plate findin, religion sprouting, multiple wifin, gay marriage hatin, later day saints???


Clear their names of what?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 23, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
and hey, if the movie is a success, maybe next those bigwallin superheroes can go clear the names of those golden plate findin, religion sprouting, multiple wifin, gay marriage hatin, later day saints???




"Lord" only knows they have had their fair share of persecution, isn't that right jen???

hey matt,


























your an asshat.

this thread was getting to civil.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
Clear their names of what?


oh jesus christ, do you really wanna go there with me?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jul 23, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Ha-ha-ha!

Not if it means spurious indictments from, Krakauer's Jiffy Encyclopedia of Mormonism.


THAT, we can take up on another thread, another day. Other "peers of the realm" might object to diverting the discourse. and crashing a huddle of big wall homies might carry a thirty yard penalty.

...although I've heard Ammon is an almost, nearly, find the middle ground, strike a balance, give and take Mormon

. ...I'd better shut up...I'd hate to cost HIM any penalties or clean ropes!
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:11am PT
I love the creativity on this thread! You guys are amazing! haha I have enjoyed the readings from Shakespeare, the rendition of "Carry on my wayward son", and the poem from Mr. Anderson.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:11am PT
oh jesus christ

WHERE?!
dogtown

Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
Jul 24, 2011 - 01:35am PT
I never thought in a million years 30 plus years ago that two little dudes from So Cal. Could have such a stir. Look back at all thread about this route. It’s the F*#king who is who in the climbing world piping up.(No BullShit! ) Most of the commits negative. This route takes brass balls to repeat. Congratulations Ammon and Kait on your second ascent. Hopefully you won’t have to go through the BS that Mark and Richard Did. And finally the two dorks I know will get some long deserved credit for the rudest aid route on El Cap. Of their time, maybe even all time who knows?

PS. I once asked a long time friend how come he never posts on supertopo?
And he wrote to me in a letter and I quote, I can think of better places to go if I want the sh#t beat out of me. Tom Frost.



Dawg.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:34am PT
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:57am PT
Wow. Nice pic, Ammon. I think I need to wipe my own chin, now... *drools*
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 24, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
RW-
i like you, but that you like him doesn't mean much, as plenty of likable people out there do bad things. and btw- it's not slander, slander is by definition untrue.

i sent you an email, no need to keep it going here at this time.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 24, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
skip you are a putz.
while i do know "slander" it technically oral, nevertheless i am less interested in that technicality than i am in the point i was trying to make: that it also must be untrue to be "slander".
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 24, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 24, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
not sure i get the dog reference(?) as i have had them all around me since i was 1 yr old and have 2 great ones right now..., but hey man, whatever makes it easy for you to get by is fine with me, glad to help!
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 24, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
Matt, I don't get the context, but The Family Dog produced awesome psychedelic posters in the sixties in San Francisco, utter classics of the genre.

Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 25, 2011 - 12:07am PT
We dig the Dawg. Oh, yes. Doubly so. ;-)
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Jul 25, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus! I love it!
He's the man!
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
hmmmmmmmm....
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Looks like this thread is tapering off....

I am looking forward to hearing the stories of the SA as well as the history behing the root. Could be cool as a colabortive project, but if that does not work out then I'll read both.

Prod.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 25, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
YAWN
FreeClimberDude

Trad climber
CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
So what happened up there?!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
Getting sleepy Philo?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 25, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
Come on on stinkeye be fair, apples vs. apples. Were not talking about Colorado or Cali climbing, we're talking about a single climb, and an aid climb at that.
Human Pack Mule

Big Wall climber
Southern California
Jul 25, 2011 - 07:39pm PT


Jensen and Smith?

What else HAVE they been up in the last quarter century?

Maybe the real story is how the most effective way to deal with persecution is to move on, prove by example that you are greater than the petty accusations.

I find myself in a relatively unique position. Allow me to explain...

I am unable to give an exhaustive account of Smith and Jensen's lives since they finished Wings of Steel, but what I can tell you is that they have each made a very positive impact on my life. My account may shed some light on why they may not have been as prolific and some people would want them to be, or expect them to be, but I have no illusions about changing people's minds about anything.

My name is Adam, and I've known Mr. Smith since 1992 or so. He taught high school Algebra to me, along with Physics (and lab), a couple of computer courses, was my high school class faculty sponsor for two years, and I climbed with him while he sponsored the school's Rock Climbing club (which he helped start).

He didn't really talk about Wings of Steel much, other than to say that he had done the climb, with whom, when it had happened, and that there was a book about it (which I first read in 1997 or 1998, I think).

It wasn't until the summer of 1995, I think it was, that I really heard the Wings of Steel story.

If I recall correctly, Mr. Smith and Mr. Jensen had been wanting to do another climb of El Cap for quite awhile, but their schedules being what they were, hadn't had an opportunity to do so. They were finally able to schedule a trip to YV that summer to scope out El Cap and see if there was a route there (they had a generally specific area they were interested in).

I volunteered to go along and Pack Mule for them. I had never been to Yosemite, much less The Valley, and wanted an opportunity to see it! This was not without complication, however, because the plan at that time was for Mr. Smith to drive up to Santa Barbara to Mr. Jensen's place, and then drive up to Yosemite from there, with a week's supplies, with potential for buying more supplies in the area. The complication centered around Mr. Jensen's car -- a 1988 Nissan 300ZX. Anyone familiar with those cars knows that they don't have a back seat, they have a back "ledge".

This did not deter me, and I convinced them that I would be willing to contort my (then, I'm about 5" taller now) 6'2" self in whatever pretzel-like shape I had to in order to accompany them.

This was the first time that I met Mr. Jensen. It was during that 7 hour car drive and subsequent days that I first heard about the Wings of Steel story in all of its Wings of Steely-ness (I also got to listen in on their discussion about Mr. Jensen's thesis, which he was in the latter stages of completing, if I remember correctly) along with some rather interesting mix tapes.

Given everything that I have read and heard about this since, they gave a very accurate and truthful accounting of what went on. If I had to estimate, I've read 99% of the posts on SuperTopo about Wings of Steel (including every post in this thread), and I haven't read or seen anything that was inconsistent with what they told me and showed me first-hand.

Through it all, I got the sense that they were more disappointed with YoSAR and some of the other locals than anything else. Disappointed that people would choose to treat them (complete strangers) that way. The pretentiousness of the locals, the condescending attitudes, the sense of entitlement. The obvious and laughable double standards.

Am I biased? You bet I am. Not as a climber though, but as a friend and human being. I was shocked and disgusted that people could act like that in a supposedly civilized and organized "sport", much less in a national park. And you can make any excuse you want to, but in the end it's still just an excuse.

An excuse to be rude to another human being. An excuse to be mean. An excuse to be disrespectful. An excuse to be evil.

The irony of these small-minded bigots claiming to hold themselves to such "high" ethical standards [for climbing of all things], and then turning around and crapping on human dignity is both sad and pathetic. There are no ethics there, only selfish convenience for what suites them and their need(s) to sate their egos.

To me, that's what it all boils down to. People who have proven themselves to be of such obviously low character and personal standards that are intimidated and upset by a couple of people who, in my opinion, have high character and standards and have proven so over and over again.

Anyway, the next summer, I went back to Yosemite with them. They put up another route, though I would imagine the details of it are far less exciting than Wings of Steel. And I am not going to give the name of the route, because I have no idea whether or not someone will see they put it up and go out and try to destroy it for no other reason than they put it up. I hope you all re-read that last sentence and think about how utterly sad it is that I have to think about that kind of thing.

Another student of Mr. Smith's was set to on the climb with them, but decided not to go a couple of days before they were to start. If I knew why, or had thoughts about why he chose not to go, I don't remember.

I helped to hike all of the stuff up to the base of that climb (thus my username), and while they asked if I wanted to go on the climb with them, I decided not to because I felt I wasn't experienced enough. Over the years I've wrestled with that decision, and while I wish I had gone even now, I believe I made the right choice, funny as that may sound.

Anyway, I met them at the summit a few weeks later and helped haul stuff back down, along with several other former students of Mr. Smith's (they had graduated a couple of years prior to the climb, but kept in touch and showed up to help). A day or so later, Mr. Jensen got married (I got to go, yay).

So to answer the question, what have they done? They grew up (matured), got married, had kids, made friends, continued to climb (put up a new route on El Cap in 1996), inspired, guided and taught kids, and they live life the best they can.

They climbed other routes on El Cap after WoS to, I think, to try and show that they were skilled climbers and could do anything that anyone else could, but ultimately it didn't make any sort of a difference. So they decided to climb and live for themselves again instead of trying to appease some nebulous ethical standard that they would never be able to reach because of the prejudices that existed (and still exist).

Smith and Jensen are very busy people. They have to schedule things months in advance, sometimes years. They don't have time for regional slide show tours, national book signing events, or whatever else you expect of them.

The Internet has allowed them to reach a great many people with an economy of time and money. That's good, because their side needed to be heard.

There are plans for a climb next summer (which I hope to be a part of in one form or another).

In the end, I feel I am a better person for having Mr. Smith and Mr. Jensen in my life. They are my friends and they have taught me a lot -- everything I know about climbing, and about being a better person; holding themselves to the high standards that they held (and hold) for me as I was growing up.

You'll note that I refer to them both still with the prefix of "Mr." throughout most of this post. My parents taught me it was a show of respect to address someone with "Mr", "Mrs", or "Ms", and while I've been told that I may address them by their first names, I choose to show them respect in this way. I suppose my parents were old fashioned that way, but I dig it.

A & K: Congratulations on completing Wings of Steel. I am relieved that someone finally repeated it. When I talked to Mr. Smith after reading the press thing by Pete, he seemed relieved as well. Finally. Finally. After all of these years. I have been wanting someone to repeat it for years, and I think it's safe to say that Mr. Smith and Mr. Jensen have been doing the same, but for far longer.

Pete: Thanks for having an open mind about all of this, and for sticking up for my friends when I wasn't able to do so, and in some ways, better than I could have.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
a most excellent post packhorse...


The irony of these small-minded bigots claiming to hold themselves to such "high" ethical standards [for climbing of all things], and then turning around and crapping on human dignity is both sad and pathetic. There are no ethics there, only selfish convenience for what suites them and their need(s) to sate their egos.

bravo, you are correct. and this is precisely why the story does need to be told and it was exacerbated by the Big Wall Book referenced earlier.


In the end, I feel I am a better person for having Mr. Smith and Mr. Jensen in my life. They are my friends and they have taught me a lot -- everything I know about climbing, and about being a better person; holding themselves to the high standards that they held (and hold) for me as I was growing up.


i wonder if anyone has ever wrote this about the shitters?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
"If I had to estimate, I've read 99% of the posts on SuperTopo about Wings of Steel (including every post in this thread), and I haven't read or seen anything that was inconsistent with what they told me and showed me first-hand."

Concur. I hear this again and again from a variety of sources. Great post, thank you.

You remind me of my friend Steve DeMaio, who put up a bunch of hard routes in Ontario and out in western Canada. He used to climb with his high school teacher, Jim Fothergill. Even years after high school, I would hear Steve's cheerful voice echoing off Mt. Nemo:

"On belay, sir!"

And his partner would say, "It's OK, Steve - we're not in school any more. You can call me 'Jim'."

Say there Human Pack Mule, you, um, wouldn't happen to be around Yosemite this fall....? (HINT)
ZachW

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 25, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
So uhhhhh, how was the climb?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
In the end, I feel I am a better person for having Mr. Smith and Mr. Jensen in my life. They are my friends and they have taught me a lot -- everything I know about climbing, and about being a better person; holding themselves to the high standards that they held (and hold) for me as I was growing up.


Adam, I've said it before, I will say it again. I deeply admire your writing skill. It's a privilege to read this, as this is also the first time I've heard your thoughts on the climb, and your own experience. Thanks for sharing, my friend. <3



Outside in the cold distance,
a wild cat did growl.
Two Riders were approaching.
The wind began to HOWL.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
yea, did we ever hear anything from Ammon about the route?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
Lambone, he's working on it. My understanding based on previous posts is that an article is in the works, likely to hit a major publication at some point in the hopefully not too distant future.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Through it all, I got the sense that they were more disappointed with YoSAR and some of the other locals than anything else. Disappointed that people would choose to treat them (complete strangers) that way. The pretentiousness of the locals, the condescending attitudes, the sense of entitlement. The obvious and laughable double standards.


i actually think these are reasonable statements, from ONE perspective...




























the perspective that does not inhabit a vast area of untamed granite cliffs that are "self regulated by the local community"...


if there is going to be self regulation, what would one propose as the model? an application at the C4 kiosk to do an FA?

obviously if anyone can cone put up any route on any cliff at any time, that is NO regulation, and i would argue that was not the system that was in place.





like it or not.
































and btw, it's mr. mcneely to you, kid. that prefix shows due respect.
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:59am PT
Yosar had absolutely nothing to do with "Wings of Steel"

Absolutely nothing.

Yosar is Yosemite National Park Service Search & Rescue.

Some members of that team had opinions as climbers independent of YOSAR.

What does Yosar have to do with this?

You people are a mixed up mess of speculations throwing ideas around that keep growing in those fertile pea brain heads of yours.

You people really need a life ....
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:04am PT
Yep, Yosar had nothing to do with Wings of Steel.
But Dick and Mark have spewed that nonsense for decades, even wrote that tripe in their book.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:05am PT
come on werner
as you of all people should know, the ego just seeks conflict to validate itself through separation, it doesn't really matter who, or even why.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:35am PT
FACT: WOS AND YOS PLAIN CRASH ALL IN ONE AS A MOVIE WOULD BE BITHCHEN!!!!!!!!!!

WITH A RAP OFF GROWING UP AND YOSAR IN PURSOOT WAY RADNESS!!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:33am PT
Unbelievable, truly unbelievable!! Two of the most significant ascents in North America ( Dunn_-Westbay on the Diamond freed at 5.13 and the Hallucinogen in the Black freed at 5.13+R) have just recently been done and you all can't stop masturbating over Wafts Of Sh#t, Aren't the sperm stains on your twisted panties getting annoyingly crunchy?.

Oh wait I get it those other climbs were in a foreign country called ColoRADo. Never mind carry on.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:44am PT
Philo, you are but a voice crying in the desert but, carry on, your cause is just.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:47am PT
Yosar is Yosemite National Park Service Search & Rescue.

Some members of that team had opinions as climbers independent of YOSAR.

So if I understand you correctly, you're making the important distinction that it was not YOSAR as an entity. Rather it was some climbers who also happened to be members of YOSAR who were acting independently. In other words, that these climbers were members of YOSAR but their actions do not reflect on the group as a whole.

All right, that seems like a valid and reasonable distinction to make, personally.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 26, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Hhhhmm what's that smell?????
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:10am PT
The hooking may be extreme. Or not.
The route may be microenhanced. Or not.
The FAionistas may be unfairly assassinated in character. Or not.
YoSAR. Or not.
A couple of R-rated 5.13 grade Vs are the raddest climbs of the year. Or not.

Nonetheless, a climbing route is forever tained with the stains of someone else's cafeteria excrement. Is that fugged up? Or not?

What would drive people to do that? I'm just wondering is all.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:21am PT
CALI RULES!!! GO HOME KOOK
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:40am PT
A couple of R-rated 5.13 grade Vs are the raddest climbs of the year. Or not.
Or not, Indeed, it's only July
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Yosar had absolutely nothing to do with "Wings of Steel". Absolutely nothing ... What does Yosar have to do with this?

Werner, I have no reason to think that you had involvement with fomenting the Wings of Steel backlash. While those events of 1982 aren't a story about you, they are a story about YOSAR. The night of the chopping, it was the YOSAR campsite to which the choppers returned to sleep in their tents. The night after the chopping, it was from the YOSAR campfire that we were boisterously heckled and derided with yells including "we chopped your route" and "eat sh#t." Here's a key point: so far as I know, ALL of the players in the intimation of us were members of YOSAR. If a cross section of the climbing community had attacked us, even a cross section that included a large number of YOSAR members, then your assertion (that it wasn't YOSAR) would have some traction. But such isn't the case. It was a well defined subset of YOSAR. Were you at the campfire that night? I trust not, because you would have objected to your team members, noting that at the point they started using the YOSAR campsite as a public announcement point of "We chopped your route," the entire YOSAR team was implicating itself in the event? Right? So, bottom line, it was YOSAR. Certainly it wasn't supported or condoned by the rangers. No one was "on duty." But it the connection to YOSAR is undeniable.
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
Again, Yosar had nothing to do with Wings of Steel.
You can make that claim until your blue in the face but all it amounts to is a very false narrative.
You're so delusional that you've included the entire Yosar team in 1982 as well, quite a stretch from someone crying about getting slandered.
To claim Yosar was involved simply because the three folks that chopped those bolts then sh#t on your ropes were in C4 near or perhaps in the rescue site yelling insults or whatever so therefore Yosar was involved is beyond pathetic. Many that gave you a hard time had nothing to do with Yosar and were never members of the team.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
Again, Yosar had nothing to do with Wings of Steel. You can make that claim until your blue in the face but all it amounts to is a very false narrative.
Who has the false narrative here, Meaty? I'll let what I previously posted stand for itself.
You're so delusional that you've included everyone on the Yosar team in 1982 as well, quite a stretch you moron.
Reread my post. I said a "well defined subset."
Many that gave you a hard time had nothing to do with Yosar and were never members of the team.
You seem to have been there. Name one.
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
"so far as I know, ALL of the players in the intimation of us were members of YOSAR."
"So, bottom line, it was YOSAR"

Nope, both assertions are completely false.

Many non-Yosar folks gave you chumps a piece of their minds.
To claim it was only members of Yosar is a fantasy like most of your silly book.

You're still playing the victim card, but you've got a losing hand every time.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:29pm PT
Like I said, you seem to have been there. So name one.

Behold, the ever-shrinking thread. Two more post disappeared from above in the past 5 minutes.
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
Yes, I was there. Many names, many. Since you've called me one of the shitters for a few decades I have no reason to give you any names. No mystery who the real shitters are.
The false narratives that make up most of your silly book live to keep telling lies.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Then we'll leave it at that.

Edit to your edit: I've called you "one of the sh#tters for a few decades"?

Edit to your fourth edit of prior post: "Silly book," eh? I take it that you bought a copy?
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
Quote from Phil: "Unbelievable, truly unbelievable!! Two of the most significant ascents in North America ( Dunn_-Westbay on the Diamond freed at 5.13 and the Hallucinogen in the Black freed at 5.13+R) have just recently been done and you all can't stop masturbating over Wafts Of Sh#t, Aren't the sperm stains on your twisted panties getting annoyingly crunchy?.

Oh wait I get it those other climbs were in a foreign country called ColoRADo. Never mind carry on. "

Well said!

Let's all just move all. Let Pete write his history piece and the team that actually did the second ascent fill in all the details.
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
MSmith

But the connection to YOSAR is undeniable.

The sar site is the living quarters for the climbers who are PART of the Yosemite Search & Rescue team that is actually run by protection division of the park.

Protection division is Yosemite National Park Law Enforcement and Yosar is that branch.

The sar site is the housing area of the volunteer climbers who are hired as incidents happen and when their services are required at the time. Since they have operational training by the park they get first priority to help on missions.

YOSAR is the branch for initiating all Search & Rescue operations by Law Enforcement which is labeled under Protection Division.

Get straight now.

Some guys in the housing area heckled and yelled at you from there is NOT YOSAR.

And you're right I had no clue of the night this heckling and yelling was going on until reading here.
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Werner, his claim that he was heckled from the SAR site is pure hogwash to begin with, complete bulltripe.
Just another victim card played by a couple of losers.
Human Pack Mule

Big Wall climber
Southern California
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Yosar is Yosemite National Park Service Search & Rescue.

Some members of that team had opinions as climbers independent of YOSAR.

I am aware of what the acronym stands for, though I appreciate the information.

The National Park Service is a branch of the US Department of The Interior which makes it an office of the executive branch of the United States government.

"Each employee* has a responsibility to the United States Government and its citizens to place loyalty to the Constitution, laws and ethical principles above private gain. To ensure that every citizen can have complete confidence in the integrity of the Federal Government, employees shall endeavor to avoid any actions creating the appearance that they are violating the law or the ethical standards set forth."

I am sure you can see where I am going with this (since I am quoting from the code of conduct handbook), but let me be real clear...

"Status as an employee is unaffected by pay or leave status or by the fact that the individual does not perform official duties on a given day."

If they did not want their opinions and thoughts to be associated with YOSAR, then they should have kept those thoughts and opinions to themselves, or quit that organization.

Like it or not, as members of that organization, their thoughts, actions, and opinions reflected directly and poorly on themselves and the organization at the time. As long as whomever was responsible is not there any longer, then there is no reason for anyone to believe that YOSAR is not one of the finest SAR teams in the country/world.

Just because someone is a member of a government organization doesn't mean they are not responsible for what went on, in one way or another. Did anyone in YOSAR ask around and see what was going on? Of course not, they knew, but they didn't do anything to stop it. And that, to me, is tantamount to them going up and personally cutting ropes or defecating on gear.

Valiant effort, indeed.

Pete: My schedule likely will not allow a trip to the valley this fall. If that changes, I'll let you know.




*defined as anyone who works, volunteers, or otherwise has an official duty or capacity with the organization/government.
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Mr.Mule,
The climbers on the SAR site are not government employees so you're wrong on ALL counts.

You and so many others here have absolutely no clue what went on because you weren't there, so quit the speculative postulations, thank you.
Human Pack Mule

Big Wall climber
Southern California
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Mr. Meaty,
Your information directly contradicts what I quoted and what was repeated by WBraun.

The sar site is the living quarters for the climbers who are PART of the Yosemite Search & Rescue team that is actually run by protection division of the park.

Protection division is Yosemite National Park Law Enforcement and Yosar is that branch.

The sar site is the housing area of the volunteer climbers who are hired as incidents happen and when their services are required at the time. Since they have operational training by the park they get first priority to help on missions.

YOSAR is the branch for initiating all Search & Rescue operations by Law Enforcement which is labeled under Protection Division.

Get straight now.

And if you read by *'d note, it includes volunteers in its definition of "employee".
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
They are only employees when actually hired for a mission.

If there is no SAR or rescue they are not employees at that time.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
"You and so many others here have absolutely no clue what went on because you weren't there, so quit the speculative postulations, thank you."


Dimitri, you're right. But we'd sure love to know! Why don't you tell us?!

Seriously. It would be great to hear from you about what happened. Everyone should have his say. We've heard Richard and Mark ranting at length, so why can't it be your turn now?
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
If one really wants to make an accusation then the proper label would be the "The Valley SAR site" in Camp 4 .....
Meaty

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
PTPP, sure, after you post here on this forum who EXACTLY keeps telling you I was one of the shitters. I got your e-mail, so let it fly! You say my name keeps coming up, well who keeps repeating that lie?


Crickets!!??
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
If one really wants to make an accusation then the proper label would be the "The Valley SAR site" in Camp 4 .....

...populated intermittently by tenuously-connected folks with only a passing association to the temporaneus assemblage of folks who sometimes act magnanimously on the behalf of temporarily indisposed vertical visitors to the Valley.

Ha, got it...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
"will the REAL shitter, please step forward?"
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
Government Job Application.



1. Did you recently, or have your ever sh#t on a rope?

....


..populated intermittently by tenuously-connected folks with only a passing association to the temporaneus assemblage of folks who sometimes act magnanimously on the behalf of temporarily indisposed vertical visitors to the Valley.

Way funny.. hahaha..
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
Aplication Denied

I'm sorry sir, but our information suggests that you may have shat on or near a rope in the last 35 years. Near being anywhere within 10 feet of any climbing rope, whether in use or laying on the ground. This establishment holds the highest standards and we can not hire anyone with even the nearest hint of sh#t on their persons. Therefore, please consider this a final evaluation and do not post any further applications.
Gene

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Wow!! We're back to brown pies again. Looking forward to Facelift.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
Fats, wouldn't that be a make-up POO woo?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
was raygun in office?
Human Pack Mule

Big Wall climber
Southern California
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
As a closing post on this subject from me:

I was on YOSAR then and had nothing to do with any of the crap thrown your way.

Coz,
This is why code of conduct policies exist, because the actions of members of organizations reflect not only on themselves, but on people who were not responsible for their actions but are also members of said organization and the organization as a whole. It is a very crummy feeling to be accused of something you didn't do, isn't it? Really, you don't have anyone to blame for that other than the other members of YOSAR at the time. As the old saying goes, "A few bad apples spoil the bunch."

Lovegasoline and John Moosie:
That was actually pretty amusing, and I did in fact heartily laugh out loud. I appreciate your ability to see the humor in an otherwise dumpy situation. Thanks for that.

I bid you all a good day.
strangeday

Social climber
The O.C. baby!!
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
I really wish I had never started reading this thread...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 26, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
at the point they started using the YOSAR campsite as a public announcement point of "We chopped your route," the entire YOSAR team was implicating itself in the event? Right?

No, as you stated as far as you were aware it was subset of Yosar. It could have been only a few drunk a-holes who did the deed and their external friends at the campfire. The more reasonable members of Yosar may have been asleep or located elsewhere. It's not fair to make statements that equate all Yosar with the bad apples.

But it's interesting to see how pissed off people get when mischaracterizations are made about their team. I wonder if they can think how that would feel if it were directed against them personally?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Wouldn't it be interesting if a purported villain wasn't really half the villain he was made out to be?

Wouldn't it be something if a lot of the anger generated towards Mark and Richard was based on a small group conspiracy who lied, and sold it to the rest of the gang, who believed it? And that the lie could be proved not to be true?

Wouldn't it be cool if someone who was overlooked or intentionally disregarded for significant climbing achievements, or had bolts chopped, finally had his truth revealed, too?

Sometimes you can't stop the truth. Although you would wonder around this place!

Deucey - for us n00bs who are not among the cognoscenti, could you please identify the characters in your photo?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
The sar site is the living quarters for the climbers who are PART of the Yosemite Search & Rescue team that is actually run by protection division of the park.
I said "subset," you say "part." When a "part" of you is doing something, how can you say that the whole has "absolutely nothing to do with [it]"? Seems a little absurd to me. That's my point.

If there is no SAR or rescue they are not employees at that time.
So they are unaffiliated with YOSAR when not on mission? What about the housing and other accommodations that they receive that the common camper doesn't receive? When staying in the housing area provided free to them, they are able to conduct whatever activities they want in that housing area without regard for YOSAR? I guess what pushed my button on this is the assertion YOSAR has "absolutely nothing" to do with it. Just not seeing that point very well.

But I should add that the SAR site was a big place. Individual people did things that don't reflect on climbers who lived there who had nothing to do with hassling or blocking us. Also, in the week or so after the chopping, we stopped being hassled by the SAR site. This was probably a top-down policy that came through or from YOSAR. So you can argue that, in the end, the administrative side of YOSAR facilitated the climb going forward. At one point near the end of our stay in C4 someone from SAR approached us to apologize for what had happened and to wish us well.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
Meaty,

The content of your posts are revised almost as much as your history of climbing. But I'll try to get over it.
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
If you're not smart enough to see a few member don't speak for the team, I can't help you.

Point well taken, and always has been. Just don't tell me that YOSAR had "absoltuley nothing" to do with it. That's what flipped my switch.

But I have gotten over it, Coz, so don't worry about that.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
Yosar orchestrated this?









PS: Long live Jose
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
dit dit dot dit dot dot dot.. NEWS FLASH

NATIONAL PARKS HAVING TROUBLE HIRING SEARCH AND RESCUE MEMBERS

In the lastest news, National park representative Iluv Headman announced today that Yosemite National Park would not be conducting search and rescue operations due to a crisis in hiring. Mr. Headman told this reporter that the park was having difficulty finding any climber who had not shat on or near a rope in the last 35 years. After a series of lawsuits aimed at requiring the park to enforce its code of conduct, the park instituted a new requirement for SAR members. The requirement was that all SAR members must not have shat on or near a climbing rope in the past 35 years, due to a shitting incident that happened in the park. The problem appears to be that anyone who has climbed a big wall has likely had to take a dump near their ropes. This is for safety reasons as one would not want to untie from the rope while taking care of business.

In related new..

National Park representatives announced today that Joshua Tree National park would be hiring boy scout troop #69 to handle its search and rescues. This was due to the serious shortage of qualified applicants for its Search and Rescue Team.


Breaking News..

Joshua Tree National Park reports today that a search is on for 4 missing boy scouts who were involved in a previous search and rescue, but did not return after 4 days.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 26, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
Gene

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
I'm getting nostalgic for simple days gone by when all we wanted certain folks to do was go piss up a rope.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
I'm getting nostalgic for simple days gone by when all we wanted certain folks to do was go piss up a rope.

lol

as opposed to go sh#t on a rope!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
Like it or not, I don’t think this is going away on its own any time soon. There’s too much intensity on every side of the issue at this point. So if it’s not going away, how about we attempt to resolve it?

It’ll take a certain amount of restraint, but I think it can be done. Let’s take the YoSAR situation really quick, I think that everyone has something here that’s important to say, and really makes a certain amount of sense from where they’re standing.

As I said earlier, Werner, I can see what you’re saying. There is a definite distinction that I think is very important between what some climbers who were part of YoSAR chose to do out of their own choices and opinions at the time, and that it does not mean that the whole of YoSAR was involved.

From MSmith’s point of view, if I understand it correctly, it makes sense that he would see what happened as coming down on them from YoSAR given that he experienced a large enough subset of climbers who happened to be from YoSAR engaging in those words and actions directly from the YoSAR campsite.

And that last part helps for me to understand MSmith’s perception because, as HPM stated, it reflects on an organization how its members decide to act on their organization's grounds, even if it is on their off time.

NEVERTHELESS, I recognize that according to what Werner is saying (and I believe Coz as well), the critical distinction needs to be made that this does not necessarily reflect on the whole totality of YoSAR, the organization itself, nor all of its members, not now, and not even then.

As long as I’m getting what you folk are all saying, these all seem to me to be valid and reasonable points.

I would like as much as anybody to see this thing put to bed. We have A&K’s SA report coming soon, the sun is going to be setting on this thing soon and I'd like for it to find us all with some measure of tolerance for each other, even if we aren't in agreement on each other's positions. I don’t know about the rest of you but I think all we need to do here is take some different steps. We’re getting further polarized and more rigid in the whole point/counterpoint/post dog sh#t pictures dance, and I really think everyone here could help change that, just by trying a little honest acceptance of each other’s point of view. Doesn't mean we have to agree, just acknowledge that from where we're all standing, what we're seeing makes sense.


Also, here is a picture of a giant juicer firing a power beam at a flying eel being ridden by satan while a cat umbrella parachutes its way to safety and two guys fight in the foreground to hopefully get folk to actually pay attention to what's written up above.
WBraun

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
LOL .... so everyone has finally figured everything out.

So now peace and tranquility will once again prevail ....

Yes ....

?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
Ah, all is well. That's good to hear.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
Congratulations Ammon and Kait on your second ascent! It's great that mysteries of our past are being brought to light and hopefully provide grist for the mill of how we deal with events that are beyond our current "Status Quos"

Some suggestions to keep this thread from becoming whacked beyond the entertainment value of seeing threads get whacked.

1. Pete has an obvious "Bias" but has been good about looking at both sides of the issue, admitting short-comings and whatknot. He is irritating to some people, perhaps from his style or from past mistakes. Making a big deal of his contributions here is a waste and fills the thread with useless banter not horribly unlike when a thread becomes all about Lois.

2. We've already established that climbers come and go from YOSAR. Yosar itself made no policy or statement about WOS so let's just stand corrected and admit that lots of Yosar members were against WOS and leave it at that.

3. It's lame to call WOS a siege climb if only two pitches were fixed. The whole alternative to Sieging is getting on a climb and taking what time it takes to finish it. Super fast Ammon didn't exactly run up the climb either.

4. Surprised the climb hasn't been more compared to the Wall of the Early Morning Light, which WAS widely disparaged and condemned and took a long time on the wall to climb.

5 I'm not saying what 5 was

6. There is no 6

7 this wasn't really meant to be a list but WTF!

Love ya'll

Don't we love to have our panties in a bunch about stuff cause we care about climbing but also because it makes us feel special so others should think like we do?

Let's let it go and read what others write, climb what other's climb and do our own thing for ourselves as well.

Peace

Karl
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
So now peace and tranquility will once again prevail ....

Yes .... ?

Ah, all is well. That's good to hear.


Indeed. Well, I can hope. I would very much like to see this be the circumstances under which the Second Ascent report find us all. =)

Edit: I could, of course, be being naive...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
fact:
1. some f*#ks did something that they have never ever wanted to confess too...(ie: sh#t on ropes)

2. Within last 2 years one of the most vocal detractors has been Grossman who said he would climb the route and prove how f*#ked it was.

3. Fact: Grossman has been quiet. My generation thought the their word meant sumtin. anyone can lash out, so WTF steve? You aint said nothing? your opine is worth sh#t. let me say again sh#t.

in my opinion, anyone who is so vocal should back their sh#t up otherwise f*#k you.....and the horse you rode in on.....
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:23am PT
Hey Karl,

I wanna know what #5 is. And I agree with #6. But #42 is where it is at.

Cheers,

Prod.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:12am PT
Hawkeye, is that you on the cover of this piece of literature?


I coulda sworn that was you.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:39am PT
Yeah so Grossman was running his mouth, I get it.

But Wings of Steel--hardest wall route in the known universe--got sent before Grossman's routes.



(Tempted to add a snarky just sayin' but shan't!)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:15am PT
Hey Karl,

I wanna know what #5 is. And I agree with #6. But #42 is where it is at.

#2 should probably have had to do with the crappers on the rope but I wasn't cleaver enough to think of it.

I can tell you that #72 is the new bear gang-banger at the base of El Cap


Peace

karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:08am PT
off whitey,

so WTF? SG is your buddy. why the quite now? SG proves and is the example that the intenet talk is cheap. unfortunately for him he also had it in print in the BW how to book on ethics. so just WTF kind of ethics does he have anyway? total BS is what hes got.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:02am PT
+100 to BASE 104 post.

Only 2 people in the last 28 years finally went and DID something instead of talk sh#t and be hateful over a route on a silly rock that's been here longer than time.

Move on.

Ammon and Kait write it up and $ell it.

Go big



can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:44am PT
"Many that gave you a hard time had nothing to do with Yosar and were never members of the team."
MSmith: "You seem to have been there. Name one."

Well I was on YOSAR that spring and I had nothing to do with the shitting episode or the heckling that night. I heard about it after the fact, but I had zero to do with any of it. And yes, the vast majority, if not all the climbers I knew at that time, both in and out of the Valley, roundly heaped verbal abuse on you and your efforts. Nice way to try and rewrite history there champ.

So there goes your "Name one" assertion.

carry on
Pat Nay
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:16am PT
Hi Pat,

Wasn't he saying name 1 who was not part of YOSAR?

Meaty said...Many that gave you a hard time had nothing to do with Yosar and were never members of the team.


Then Smith replied...You seem to have been there. Name one.

Prod.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:40am PT
You know, much is being drummed up about the crapping on the ropes.

What was quite a bit worse though was the assault made on Jensen and Smith from the Aquarian. A french team launched their paper bag of crap on them from far above, did score on Smith---covered him--- and then the french finished their climb. They even jeered down to the WOS party as it happened. That was obviously an assault. Much worse than the ropes incident.

I realize how much Mark and Richard can't help positioning themselves as embattled and martyred and they on some level need to view themselves this way even, but with this poop-throwing event, no one could blame them.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:06am PT

I used to think of most wall climbers as enlightened.

This thread tears those thoughts to ribbons.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:11am PT
+1 104
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:20am PT
It's not wall climbers in general.

There was a pervasive culture of mistrust and hate amongst certain valley lifers and their chosen insiders that came to an unfortunate head in 1982. Unfortunately the WOS FAionistas were on the receiving end of that.

Dimitri's apparent rage and vitriol in his posts above a vestige of that culture.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:42am PT
Prod, again, many that were never on Yosar gave them a piece of their minds.

Peter, a few American teams did the same from the Aquarian. And if you and many others knew who they were you'd be surprised.

Mark, I'm never going to forgive these as#@&%es for claiming it was me that sh#t on their ropes. Just human nature to defend myself. They even had one of their chump pals blame me on this thread. Werner was the only one to make a post saying it wasn't me but their pal Randy just kept repeating that lie.

TwistedDick, Go ahead and call me one of the shitters and you'll get sh#t right back in your face. You're just one that has no clue about so much that happened in the Valley over the years. You don't know about the folks arrested and prosecuted in Federal court in Fresno for vandalizing my vehicle over ethics, do you? One just happens to post here all the time. I've had more bolts chopped in Yosemite than anyone else. If you can't stand the anger then too f*#king bad.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:44am PT

That's Meaty on the left.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:46am PT
I'll talk sh#t to your face if you'd like Mr.Granite, bring it on bitch.
Send me an e-mail and we can get together and talk things over in person.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Dimitri was not one of the sh!tters.

(FACT - in ST parlance)

But his social skills fostered a culture where the real sh!tters could do their thing.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Yeah, go f*#k yourself twistedDick.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Prod, again, many that were never on Yosar gave them a piece of their minds.

Hey Meaty,

I understand that. I was just clearing up what was said for Pat Nay.

Prod.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
The "Meaty Man" Sushi Roll.

(The secret ingredient is imitation crab mix. LOL)


Ingredients [ View Metric ]
2 tbs mayonnaise; Kewpie Japanese Mayonnaise
1-2 scallops; cut into small chunky pieces; seared quickly with butter and garlic
1-2 shrimp; cut into small chunky pieces; seared quickly with butter and garlic
1/4 cupcrab Prepared Crab Salad or Imitation Crab
1/2 tspHot Sauce; Sriracha Red Rooster Sauce
1/4 cupcrab Prepared Crab Salad or Imitation Crab
8 piecestuna; sushi grade, sliced, thickness based on your preference
1/3 avocado sliced
1/2 carrot; shredded or sliced very thin
1/8 cupspinach; chopped into thin slices
1 sheetseaweed nori; dried, seasoned
1/3 cuprice Sushi Rice; sticky, seasoned with Rice Vinegar
Bamboo roller
Saran wrap; slightly larger than your nori seawee
Knife; sharp not serrated
Calories Per Serving: 13
Want detailed nutrition information?
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How to Prepare 'Meaty Man' Sushi Roll

Note: You must have basic sushi preparation knowledge to follow this recipe.
Meaty Man Crab Mixture
Mix the imitation crab meat, with the Srirachi sauce, Kewpie Japanese Mayonnaise, scallops, & shrimp until is is mixed thouroughly. Set aside.
Rolling the Sushi:
Spread your rice on the rough side of your nori seaweed. Only cover 1/2 to 2/3 of the sheet. Flip your seaweed over, rice facing down on your bamboo roller & saran wrap. Keep the seaweed with the 1/3 'no rice' side closest to you.
Lay down the avocado, Meaty Man Crab Mixture, carrots, spinach, and any other thinly sliced vegetables to your preference. Tightly roll your sushi closed, take care to not squeeze your fillings out the end of your sushi log. Place your Red Tuna pieces on the top of your roll, and mold once more with your bamboo mat.
Cut into 8-10 pieces. If you have a sharp enough knife you may be able to cut 12 pieces. If you don't have a sharp knife. Use saran wrap to help cut the sushi.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
Now let's not be too fast to sh|t on Dimitri. There is no hard evidence to suggest he is a sh|tter, or even soft evidence. [heh heh]

Dimitri was there, and he was and still is pretty angry. He is incensed with Randy's accusation, fair enough.

What I'd really like to hear from Dimitri is a little more about WHY he was so angry back then, and why this anger remains to this day. What were you told? What did you think? What did you really know? Did anyone ever take a walk up to the base of the route, and have a look? You can clearly see it ain't no rivet and bolt ladder. But did people simply take the choppers' word for it, and carry on from there?

What is it about Wings of Steel that arouses such passion?

"Pete has an obvious "Bias" but has been good about looking at both sides of the issue..."

Karl gets it. He also knows that there is NEVER a sixth thing. His quote above is worthy of comment. Here's what happened:

 I, like almost everyone else, believed what had been written in aid climbing texts and guidebooks, and the scuttlebutt in Yosemite - "Wings of Steel is a botch job, and Mark and Richard are villains who were run out of town". This is significant to note, because it was my "starting point"

 Richard came on this forum, and offered explanations. He also tended to rant a lot, and appeared very defensive

 But to me, Richard's explanations/rants, once you filtered out the defensiveness, contained the consistencies and the "ring of truth" that his detractors' arguments lacked

 I agreed to give him and Mark the benefit of the doubt, meet them, and try to climb Wings of Steel

 I found the route to be desperately hard with the most insane hooking I had ever seen. I've done lots of other hard routes on El Cap, but this one was way too hard for me. I had to cheat-stick my way past lots of moves. I was unprepared to take the big whippers you need to take to figure out the hook moves. No thanks! I bailed. Tom replaced the bolts and rivets in the first couple pitches

 In spending a few days with Richard and Mark, I found them to be really cool, rather "normal" even. They are neither villains nor weirdos, neither missionaries nor mercenaries - just regular guys, somewhere in between. They were deeply hurt by a quarter-century of character assassination that followed them after Wings of Steel. They are real straight-shooters, and they are "honest to a fault". Their attention to detail is excruciating, and I am fully convinced that they are not liars - Richard lost his job rather than give the university benefactor's daughter an undeserved A in his course

 I have been unable to find anything significantly inconsistent in what they have told me. Minor inconsistencies are reasonably explainable through memory lapses over a quarter-century

 I believe they were treated extremely unfairly over the years

 I believe it's about time the truth came out, and these guys were given a fair shake


If you wanna call that "biased", then hell yeah, I'm biased!
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
An LAPD officer lives on a street and the new neighbor across the street installed pink flamingos on his front lawn.

This pissed off the LAPD officer after attempts trying to get the owner to remove them.

There was nothing he could do about it so he went over there and sh'it on his lawn.

The pink flamingo owner then made a complaint that LAPD was the culprit.

Huh ..... :-)
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
Seems pretty clear that a coupple of bullys had their way with the WOS party. Chopping and crapping in typical cowardly bully style. That kind of behavior is never excusable. If the people who did that are in fact a big part of climbing history then we should know who they are...
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Peter, a few American teams did the same from the Aquarian. And if you and many others knew who they were you'd be surprised

The three man team? Nothing suprising about that.

I heard it was beer cans, empty ones at that.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
Tradman, you'll be surprised who they are and so will many others. But a few chumps want to put the blame for what they did on me. I will simply defend myself, pretty simple but impossible for some to grasp.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
Mucci, full ones as well.
So now some as#@&%e is gonna blame me for that too?

One of the offenders is in the Valley right now.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
An LAPD officer lives on a street and the new neighbor across the street installed pink flamingos on his front lawn.

This pissed off the LAPD officer after attempts trying to get the owner to remove them.

There was nothing he could do about it so he went over there and sh'it on his lawn.

Hahahahaha!

Oh geez, I must be exhausted, but just the mental image this conjures up makes this one of the funniest things I've read all morning. Guess I'm not above laughing at crap jokes either. Seriously, thank you, Werner.

Now, mind you, there were several incidents of systematic attempts to get them out of the Valley at the time, according to the WOS book they battled some pretty major and inexplicable rate hikes to their camp sites on a number of occasions that would have meant an end to the whole expedition, for example. I'm very tired due to finishing up an overnighter as I finish up my final class essay, so if you weren't trying to make a point with the above story, I apologize. In any case, I appreciated the chuckle. =)
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
**Mucci, full ones as well.
So now some as#@&%e is gonna blame me for that too?**

Full ones seems sacreligious for that team.

You were not mentioned, at any time.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
Yeah, I was not mentioned. But some of these dweebs here are all about pushing buttons and would love to make more false claims.

Yes, full ones. They told me all about it.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
Words of advice from Weird Al Yankovic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJjMnHoIBI
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
You don't know about the folks arrested and prosecuted in Federal court in Fresno for vandalizing my vehicle over ethics, do you? One just happens to post here all the time. I've had more bolts chopped in Yosemite than anyone else.

Federal court is how things are settled face-to-face in the Valley?

And such an angry defense in the face of patently false accusations? Well, then one can only marvel at how restrained the WoS team has been and so much for empathy...

Bottom line is the treatment these guys received beyond the verbal was vindictive and cowardly and for there to be a hundred posts thirty years later that all say "you'd be surprised..." simply shines light on that fact. At least Robbins had the balls to climb Harding's line and back up the sh#t talk.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
healyje.
You don't have a clue, these three, one to later become LE in the Valley, were caught vandalizing, turned in by climbers from the UK that observed their crime. Unlike Robbins, I didn't chop any bolts on El Cap, so blather on with your nonsense and be a foolish chump.

And yes, moron, you'd be surprised who those three cowards are, one of them posts here regularly.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
Like I said, a class display of empathy...and some real Shirleys still in the closet thirty years later.
pulthru

Trad climber
Wenatchee, WA
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
This thread is heading for the sh#t. Here is some video evidence of one of the sh#ters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuedGDhkQKg
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
"... you'd be surprised who those three cowards are, one of them posts here regularly."

We *love* surprises!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
when you got up and came out of your tense so early making that fuss

Did they come out of the past progressive into the past perfect?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
And yes, moron, you'd be surprised who those three cowards are, one of them posts here regularly.

And hard to figure which is more cowardly - that they did it then or that they don't have the balls to own it now.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
Throwing full cans of beer is much more serious than pooping on ropes. How is that different from trundling rocks on someone on purpose?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
Much ado about nothing!

agreed. this thread has been going nowhere, and quickly so, for a long time.

die, thread. die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPeAq8plGo
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
die, thread. die.

Glad to see you're still with us to cheer on the debate - I was beginning to wonder...

All I can say is who cares? Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line, and somebody crapped on their ropes.

The choice of line was theirs to make - horrible or otherwise - just like it was Harding's. Don't like their choice and want to give them some sh#t about it? Cool. But to do more than that, and do it under the cover of darkness? Low and cowardly no matter which way you look at it then or now.

No doubt if I'd done anything like that I'd probably want it to simply slither away under a rock as well. God forbid someone's rep might look simply human in hindsight.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
This thread is like a Bad case of The Runs
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
This thread is like a really funny looking dog chasing its tail!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
"Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line..."

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH. You gotta be sh|ttin' me.

How are fifty-foot falls, dislocated shoulders, and firsthand observations to the contrary in any way consistent with this formerly accepted "truth"?

Coz, do you really still believe WoS is a drilled bolt and hook ladder? Please tell me you're just yanking my zipline.

[You can say what you want about the line, however. No argument there.]
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
This thread is like when you're out walking your dog for miles and miles and he keeps on pissing on every tree or fire hydrant he comes across! He never runs out of piss!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
The morbid curiousity this thread creates is beyond the pale.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.

Don't like it? I'll tell some some of my political beefs...
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line, and somebody crapped on their ropes.

From my arm chair that's what I've always thought, but have posted a bit less direct. I've said I just can't see where it is such classic climbing that it's just a "must do". Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there. I'm sure the FA team knew they couldn't get away with installing a solid bolt every 15' and hook inbetween all the way to the top. They had to manufacture the risk by way of the type of fixed protection they used to make the route have some kind of merit... at least to themselves. Now this is all conjecture, but what are discussion forums for? lol

All I can say is who cares?

Yeah, maybe no one should now. But, I believe the line had to be contested at the time it went up. A "big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line" as you call it... next to absolutely all world classic climbs in an all world classic place... just had to be questioned. Just as many other dubious and otherwise curious climbs had been before and even new ones are today. Noticed I said "questioned"... there are no P's in questioned... so no poop... monkeys throw poop, we're suppose to have evolved to a higher sophistication level than that... or at least that's what Richard Dawkins said.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
This thread is like when you're out walking your dog for miles and miles and he keeps on pissing on every tree or fire hydrant he comes across! He never runs out of piss!

Pretty much. lol
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.

Absolutely agree.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 27, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
I know who all three are, I talked to them the morning after the poop.

All I can say is who cares? Some guys drilled a big bolt and hook ladder up a horrible line, and somebody crapped on their ropes.

Much ado about nothing!

Saying "drilled" instead of "hooked" continues the controversy. There were more hook placements than holes and supposedly lower holes per foot climbed than other climbs like SOD. Many people might think it's a horrible line (A&K are the ones best qualified to make that call), but for someone into difficult hooking they may think it's great.

Edit to add: I like steep, well featured free lines a lot more than free slab routes, but I still enjoy slab and see how that could be someone's forte and they like it more than crack/steep face. I imagine it's the same with WoS, they simply liked the low angle hooking, to see what could hold. The appeal doesn't seem all that different from aiding fragile features, or incipient seams.

Yes to most of us there are fare more interesting and important routes. But the crapping on their rope (and even more so the crapping on their reputations) is what makes this story interesting. Until the poopers are heard from or at least publicly outed this story will not go away, even when the SA details are known. The poopers helped create an atmosphere of persecution and since Richard and Mark didn't back down and their antagonists haven't let up this story will go on. The conflict is still there and that's what drives an interesting story.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 27, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
This kind of thread is the main kind of on-topic thread that has legs and examines ourselves and serious aspects of ourselves and our sport's history.

This was true for about the first gazillon posts. Now it's just a circular exercise: the same folks rephrasing what they've already written over and over and over.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
It takes courage to do hard run out climbs, free solo, etc. But sometimes it takes more to publicly apologize for bad behavior.

No matter how strongly one feels that a certain ethical standard or tradition has been violated, one still needs to listen to the other side with courtesy and respect.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 27, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Then the anwer to the OP's question is: "Yes, WOS has seen a second ascent"
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
Oh, there's no shortage of red mites.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
Oh, sorry Captain. As deleted previously-

Have you folks read the book Wings of Steel? Good stuff. I think the biggest losers in all of this were the red mites.
Impaler

Gym climber
Vancouver
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
If only Richard and Mark had packed umbrellas, you people would have nothing to talk about.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 27, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
Coz. It says a lot about your personal charecter that you do not think the shitting and bullying incident was any big deal...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
Rudder writes

....I've said I just can't see where it is such classic climbing that it's just a "must do". Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there...
.

Hmmm... Maybe it's more like that controversial "Hall of Mirrors" than I thought.

After all, this is sort of the difference between crack and slab lines. Isn't a slab that you can smear or crimp or hook sort of a natural line too in a way. It can be safer or more dangerous than a crack, depending on how you bolt it because the pro isn't a crack, where you protect wherever you like.

It IS something that is "There" you can't hook up for dozens or hundreds of feet just anywhere on El Cap.

Looks to me like they didn't take the chicken way up there. Let's hear what Ammon has to say about it but it's sounding to me like there was just a bias against climbing protected by bolts, whether free or aid, even if it was sporty (unless Bachar put it up)

Otherwise why? Nobody seemed to whine about the PO or Mescalito with miles of heads or some Eric Kohl routes with worlds of holes? The Insider cool guy versus Jesus Geeks from elsewhere difference?

Peace

Karl
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
NEWS FLASH:

Rumour has it that I have spies en route to WoS, looking for secret evidence, and taking pictures.

Who could they be? What could they be looking for? Why would they want to go?
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Goddammit Pete, who is doing what?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
It is a stealth mission. Diabolical, eh?

I could give a [HINT], for the right price. [beer] Unlike a certain Russ Walling, who talks the talk, but won't say one useful word!
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
After all, this is sort of the difference between crack and slab lines. Isn't a slab that you can smear or crimp or hook sort of a natural line too in a way. It can be safer or more dangerous than a crack, depending on how you bolt it because the pro isn't a crack, where you protect wherever you like.

Hi Karl!

Okay, let's say there is some great free climbing slab, or face climbing wall however steep, without natural protection... the FAs can either make it a sport route (bolts so close together that the only worry is the climbing), or Trad bolted from G-X, etc. Irregardless the bolts are there merely to protect the great climbing. You're on the route for the climbing. OTOH, if the great climbing is not there but you still want to put up a route... you make the protection the route, rather than just for the protection of the route (e.g. hook a little ways to a rivet, a long ways to a bolt, etc.). You may end up showing you can do something really hard... a fixed protection route, possibly lacking in esthetics... but then you still have to question it due to what it might lead to. Fixed protection is controversial. Whatever side of the fence you're on I don't think any of us want fixed protection =everywhere=. Would have been fun to see what would have happened if people would have reacted to the FAs the way I describe in the left half of the WOS flow chart I made. ;)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
Irregardless is not a word.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
Irirregardless of the quality of the natural features I still don't see the point of manufactured (crappy rivets) difficulty.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
Sweet pic, Impaler!
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Rudder:
Best case scenario it still qualifies as a manufactured climb as it is all hooking... so the manufacturing is how many hooks between how risky of fixed protection. That's something you make up, not something that is there. I'm sure the FA team knew they couldn't get away with installing a solid bolt every 15' and hook inbetween all the way to the top. They had to manufacture the risk by way of the type of fixed protection they used to make the route have some kind of merit... at least to themselves.

I beg to differ and here's why:

You say it's manufactured because it's all hooking between fixed pro. Other than free climbing it or drilling a hole every few feet, what other possible way was there (or is there) to climb it. They sure as hell didn't manufacture the risk as you suggest, in fact they mitigated it by using bolts and rivits.

Sure, it's a forced line, as is any line up a featureless slab but it's a huge stretch to say it's manufactured - that would make virtually every line on the Apron a manufactured POS also.

Manufactured means, at least to me, that the rock was altered (and I don't mean chipping a few tiny crystals on micro flakes.) Manufactured, to me, is what the PO wall and SOD are - sculptured flakes, drilled hook moves, etc. Rock was altered in order to create the routes and it was done in order to preserve an artificial level of difficulty that would have been lost if not for the trickery involved.

Only when we get the SA report will we know the amount of manufacturing that went into this climb.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Melissa and Kate had the Wall-Parasol pic going on, WAAAY before that Trotter interloper up there.

They sure as hell didn't manufacture the risk as you suggest, in fact they mitigated it by using bolts and rivits.

It's kind of the same thing (manufactured risk vs. mitigated). I think the point was, they got to choose at any point when to eliminate the risk, vs that being dictated by the rock and possibly unknown (bottoming seams that look like they'll protect and then don't, etc).

If you like slab hooking, I'm sure it's the cat's ass of a route. If you enjoy aestetic "lines" that follow obvious weaknesses and features, then it probably seems like an exercise in boring and repetitive micro-flake/crystal hooking.

What I find interesting is that some folks take the view that it wasn't repeated because of difficulty....even spouting this view long after the crux pitches had been climbed by multiple parties who failed to summit for whatever reasons (time, water, heat). I think it stood so long without repeats because people don't value it as a line that calls to them. There are plenty of El Cap routes that are arguably harder, and there and plenty that are more dangerous.

But ya'll want drama about shenanigans and semantics. "He wants it, well....he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men"
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
Those of us who have not done the route have little to no grounds for commenting on the quality of the climbing. We do however have an obligation to act honorably to the best of our ability in all aspects of our lives. Most of us struggle with meeting that obligation and some do not even try....
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 27, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Maybe this all started because of a mistaken identity.

CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) - Wildlife officials said a rhesus monkey known to throw feces when mad is on the loose in Tampa Bay. Authorities have been trying to capture the primate since Tuesday afternoon, but it managed to evade a bucket truck and tranquilizer dart.
Gary Morse with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission says the adult male is thought to have escaped from an unlicensed source. It was last seen in Clearwater.

The monkey is not considered dangerous.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
DMT, you are a moron. Sorry you feel left out and are not part of the club that has "shitter knowledge".

Who cares who they were, these were the acts of immature kids who still have not grown up enough to step up to the plate and accept responsibility for their actions.

I'll bet you are one of the folks who rubberneck at car crashes hoping to see the carnage and bodies.
Prod

Trad climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
I'll bet you are one of the folks who rubberneck at car crashes hoping to see the carnage and bodies.

The world loves a train wreck.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Lol. So bubba, who sh#t the ropes?

DMT


Don't know, dont' care. That's between the shitters and the shitties.

It's obvious you care a lot since this is about the tenth time you have called for their names.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
Back in the mid-80s I was given a tour by locals of a couple of hard slab climbs at Whitehorse. They had me follow them up the slab to a point where I wanted a rope but they didn't see the need. They were kind enough to drop me a line though and bring me up to a bolt that represented the anchor for a couple of their 'routes'.

I'd been climbing for ten years at that point and even had a fairly scary no-hands line to my credit in SoIll. Still I couldn't vaguely perceive the 'line' or route they were pointing out right in front of me. All I saw was a vast expanse of granite that looked like someone took a baking roller to it early on.

In the end, what they pointed out as 'holds' were mere ripples and anomolous crystals in the surface of the slab. I think I made move #1 and couldn't see a damn thing after that whereas those guys made move after move on what they claimed were discrete 'holds' or 'features'. The line was also quite runout from bolt-to-bolt.

From my perspective the entire thing seemed unrepeatable and entirely 'manufactured' with respect to risk. But, hey, that was their deal and game and I wasn't then and aren't now in a position to judge their choice of what to climb. And I suspect similar types lurk about in NC as well. I'd like to see one of you Valley boys tell them to their faces that all their slab lines were 'manufactured' or 'contrived'.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
Bubba, everyone rubbernecks at car crashes.. only the young and stupid hope to see carnage. those of us who have experienced carnage hope not to see it but we still rubberneck.....
Most on this site are getting on in years but we were all young and stupid at one point in our lives. Many of us were in our twentys when this sh#t happened. very few of us have ever done anything that nasty and mean to our fellow humans...

Yea, we should know who these people are...
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
Hey Karl!

These guys are climbing, too:



I think the FAs of WOS strongly intended to and then, in fact, did follow the mechanical ethics of the time. It is the esthetics, style, and other ethics that I always wondered about. Once again the fixed protection question... if you're going to bring up a bolt kit, and 1200 lbs of supplies, you're ensuring the outcome. You can make it more or less spicy to taste, but the outcome is certain. I mean 1200 lbs? How much did Maestri's compressor weigh? ;)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
What was that .13d route in Rifle described in the guidebook as "the line is not beautiful nor is the climbing much fun, it is merely difficult"?
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Irregardless is not a word.

Well, regardless of whether you are right about that or not, I will use irregardless irregardlessly. lol
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha!! Who knows who the Sh|tters are? Are you a member of Club Sh|tter? Many claim to be members, but who are the *real* members?

Irregardless [sic] of this, they did manufacture artificial difficulty on Wings of Steel, by placing Z-Mac rivets instead of stronger machine bolts. I believe this pre-dated the current use of Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, did it knott?

Nowadays, consensus is, "if you have to drill a hole, you might as well put a rivet in it." And Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, which are rather stronger than either of the above, are the usual rivet.

When WoS was put up, the FA-ists chose to place Z-Macs. "We never intended our rivets to hold falls." This was their choice. Similarly, Greg Child and Peter Mayfield chose to drill bathook holes on Aurora, rather than put rivets in them. Both of these climbs were put up about the same time.

I don't recall hearing much if any criticism of this practice on Aurora. Of course, Greg and Peter were "cool kids".

I disagree with the use of Z-Macs on WoS. When we replaced the bolts and rivets on the first two pitches, Tom and I asked Mark and Richard what they wanted, and they insisted on Z-Macs, so that's what we used.

I disagree with the use of Z-Macs, but I also "get" why they did it. It was the custom of the time.

Peter Mayfield aka Maysho - can you please comment?

Dingus, maybe we need to set a bounty on the Sh|tters' identity?
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
Irirregardless of the quality of the natural features I still don't see the point of manufactured (crappy rivets) difficulty.

Good use of irregardless (Mark? ;)) and I agree. :)
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
The world loves a train wreck.

And a good sh#t fight too
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
Update your spreadsheet son, its 11 now... so who sh#t the ropes?

DMT


It was really Mark and Richard but don't tell anyone else. It's going to come out in Pete's book.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
Manufactured means, at least to me, that the rock was altered (and I don't mean chipping a few tiny crystals on micro flakes.) Manufactured, to me, is what the PO wall and SOD are - sculptured flakes, drilled hook moves, etc. Rock was altered in order to create the routes and it was done in order to preserve an artificial level of difficulty that would have been lost if not for the trickery involved.

Correct. I agree. Above, though, I was suggesting that a sustained route of nothing but hooking =might= be monotonous, tedious, unesthetic, =maybe= even lacking in merit being on the same wall as a route like the Salathe which is twice as tall and went up with 13 bolts originally... that therefore the FAists arranged the fixed protection to make the route dangerous or have some kind of merit... in that way making it manufactured danger, a manufactured route... whereby the protection was not merely put up to protect the great climbing. Now if they scoped out the line and saw they could hook to thin seams and put tiny gear in the seams between hooking... well then... ;)... now you're talking dicey and huge respect no matter race, sex, or religion. And, again, no manufacturing of the protection difficulty to =maybe= mask a forced route. Just a thought from another armchair cowboy. :)
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
It's kind of the same thing (manufactured risk vs. mitigated). I think the point was, they got to choose at any point when to eliminate the risk, vs that being dictated by the rock and possibly unknown (bottoming seams that look like they'll protect and then don't, etc).

If you like slab hooking, I'm sure it's the cat's ass of a route. If you enjoy aestetic "lines" that follow obvious weaknesses and features, then it probably seems like an exercise in boring and repetitive micro-flake/crystal hooking.

What I find interesting is that some folks take the view that it wasn't repeated because of difficulty....even spouting this view long after the crux pitches had been climbed by multiple parties who failed to summit for whatever reasons (time, water, heat). I think it stood so long without repeats because people don't value it as a line that calls to them. There are plenty of El Cap routes that are arguably harder, and there and plenty that are more dangerous.

But ya'll want drama about shenanigans and semantics. "He wants it, well....he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men"

I enjoyed reading that... because that is exactly what I have been saying... you must be really intelligent if you agree with me. ;) lol
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
I also know I don't climb for other people and could give a rip if any of my routes see an SA - it isn't why I climb. I climb and put up routes because I get obsessed with a line and simply have to do it. I don't explain myself to anyone as to the why of it because half the time I don't know myself.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
self-defecating

Ha!
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Jul 27, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
I'm sure many would find a sustained hooking route monotonous and tedious just as others might find it thrilling and engaging. It sure wouldn't be my cup of tea, but my hard aid days are over.

I do have to say that I find a long run out slab route a very satisfying thing to climb though - nothing quite like looking at a 50 foot cheese grater down the face if you fail.

So, from that standpoint, it's easy for me to see that this route may have appeal to a select crowd, just as Jolly Roger appeals to a different crowd and free soloing the Phoenix appeals to another.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
I'm sure many would find a sustained hooking route monotonous and tedious just as others might find it thrilling and engaging. It sure wouldn't be my cup of tea, but my hard aid days are over.

I do have to say that I find a long run out slab route a very satisfying thing to climb though - nothing quite like looking at a 50 foot cheese grater down the face if you fail.

So, from that standpoint, it's easy for me to see that this route may have appeal to a select crowd, just as Jolly Roger appeals to a different crowd and free soloing the Phoenix appeals to another.

Agreed... find yourself on the left column of the WOS flow chart. :)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
Steve Grossman. you wrote the "ethics" and i use that term loosely, chapter in the BW book correct?



you said you were going to climb WOS correct?

so why are you so quiet now?


talk is cheap.......unless you get paid for a chapter in a BW book, then you got paid, rite? then you said you would climb the route......again worthless talk.....

so far your reputation is taking a down turn because you are not man enough to say that you could have been wrong.

let me be strait......you suck.
Meaty

climber
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
DMT, I heard someone is still open to selling you the shiitty names,LOL!!!

.......... but if you paypal Russ he'll jerk your chain so hard your nuts are gonna be swollen for a year.
Again, no secret, one of most well known so-called secrets ever in Yosemite, .......but just not for you...and I can't stop laughing at you.
You're gonna be surprised when you find out exactly who it was!!!!
No bullshit about it!

Oh, and it wasn't me.......NO BULLSH#T...LOL!
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 27, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
Is one of the YOSOR crew (Yosemite Sh!t on Ropes crew) deceased?

I have been putting my collection of clues together . . . . . .
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
A bunch of buckaroos.

B ig
U gly
C aucasian
K infolk
A lways
R ehashing
O ld
O ld
S tories
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
One wonders how my spies have been doing? It is almost dusk in the west...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
I should think who the WoS shitters, cutters, choppers, and bombardiers are is largely irrelevant at this point - they know who they are and if it weren't a lowlife thing to do we'd all know who they were. Given we don't, is it really necessary to pry beyond that?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
oh sure, why knott?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
The ballsiest thing a Sh|tter could do, would be to 'fess up to Mark and Richard. Apologize, and ask for forgiveness.

Mark and Richard are practising Christians. They have NO CHOICE but to forgive when asked.

To say you were sorry would be proud and super hardcore. It would go a long way towards healing a lot of hurt hearts.

Then we could all laugh about it, and drink some beers together, because forgiveness means just that - to make a conscious decision to let the other person off the hook, completely and forever.

Beers on the bridge together, sh|tters and shat upon. Beers - Except maybe Mark and Richard. Unless maybe we could get 'em drunk. Now THAT would be funny! It would probably take only take half a can each!

How long til we get 5000 WoS posts total?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
Beers on the bridge together, sh|tters and shat upon

yes. like a pod of butterflys riding unicorns over a rainbow. love, reign o'er me.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
The energizer bunny - that's exactly how I think of you, except maybe a version that has a lot in common with the con artiste in 'Little Big Man' who kept losing parts.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 27, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
i keep going and going and going....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
Dingus, maybe we need to set a bounty on the Sh|tters' identity?

I offered up the princely sum of $6.66 for outing the shitters way back when. Perhaps more motivation might help the cause. ;-)

Since then I have leaned the identity of the shitters, but will knott be divulging names - at any price.

It would be great if they themselves came forward, but I'm most certainly knott holding my breath!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
A couple more "irregardlessess(?)" would be really cool right about now...
pulthru

Trad climber
Wenatchee, WA
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
Are we sliding down some kind of sh#ty rope?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVkR7MsfSJY
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:21am PT
regardless of the shitters names (who some fo you claim to know and many of us dont f*#king care), Mr. Steve Grossman has written a bunch of bullsh#t, said he would climb the route and has done nothing, let me repeat, NOTHING but post on the internet and write a chapter in a How To book on Ethics no less about how WOS was the wrong thing to do.

Grossman.......fess up. you are all talk and no action at a minimum. at the other end of the spectrum, you were wrong and should publicly apologize.

the image of Yosemite "leading climbers" during that time frame now appears to be faceless, nameless bags of sh#t. very unfortunate indeed.

werner, note how i did not call out yosar. sleep well.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:27am PT
I don't know who you are Hawkeye but I know Grossman and he's the real deal, you might want to soften up.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:34am PT
Hey, Petey!

Mark and Richard are practising Christians. They have NO CHOICE but to forgive when asked.


Well, hopefully I won't open up a whole new can of worms here, but for purposes of clarification, irregardless of being Christian we are not deprived of free will. We could choose not to forgive, either intentionally or unintentionally. We don't stop being human. However, it is something that we value and aspire to do as we believe God wants us to forgive others as He forgives us. I do believe that Mark and Richard would - out of their own free will - happily do so.

I do, likewise, think it would be a freaking stand-up courageous thing for a person to do, and I believe that you're right, it would go a long way toward healing old wounds - even self-inflicted ones - on all sides of the table.

My understanding, though, is that what was actually damaging was not so much the sh#t on ropes incident as the sh#t they got smeared with for the next 30 years. And with that, all I can say is, for me personally I would like for all parties to sit down, hash this thing out in a way that's actually productive or reconciling, and forgive - or at least agree to tolerate - each other. I recognize that this is also totally naive, but I think it would make for a better ending all across the board.

One way or another, this is a part of climbing history. What do we want that history to reflect?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:44am PT
Da-Dweeb,

You should have said

....but for purposes of clarification, Irregardless of being Christian doesn't deprive us of free will....

;-)
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Hehehe. Thanks, Mark. My day is complete.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:47am PT
Mark-

Well then, by popular demand, see recent edit... =)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 01:04am PT
i appreciate that donini.


which is why he ought to think about his past writings. anyone coming over the internet saying he is going to climb some thing i order to validate past suppositions then not do that climb ought to have the balls to man up.

this is not about climbing. it is about being a man.....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 01:46am PT
come on grossman? mimi?

are you guys all talk and no action?...........


it matters not what you have climbed but how you have treated other climbers.....

thats my quote and i am sticking by it. Mr donini, you are one of the most respectable dudes on here tell me my quote is wrong.

so come on grossman.....WTF? all talk and no action? send mimi after the "doubters"?



your word aint worth sh#t if you wont man up.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 28, 2011 - 01:46am PT
granted many know i am no fan of PtHP, but you gotta admit it's pretty friggin funny to watch him try to make himself somehow a part of this "ongoing story", now that he has a small vested interest in making it a "story" (i.e. a paid gig writing about it, possibly, if he can get anything good to break loose).

"maysho can you comment?"

"come fwd and apologize, we'll all have beers on the bridge"

"i have mad spies doing dumbass things for no reason"




give it a rest man, you are a spectator, that's it.



as for hawkeye- you are pretty bent on SG, you know what? he has an email address... what makes you think he's reading this thread? he seems to have checked out, IMO.


coz- i agree




this dweeb poster has a one trck mind as a poster on ST:
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?cur=20&dcid=PT8zOjs5PSc,&ftr=
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 01:53am PT
Hawkeye, youre a big mouth faceless troll, name calling someone out on the internet. 100's of photos posted on Supertopo under your handle, but none of them of climbing.
I don't dispute Steve G. should either do the route or not, and he would certainly be much higher in my estimation if he apoligized. I think everyone knows now that he was in the wrong, but maybe himself and Mimi. But your method of calling him out, does it make you any better then the shitters? Or are you just wallowing in it and don't care as long as no one knows who you are? Pretty cowardly dude.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:01am PT
Funny how controversial routes roll.

Caldwell or somebody could probably walk up in one day and repeat "Growing Up" on half-dome and have something to say bout it, and that route almost undeniably has some very classic crack climbing on it.

Yet it has no second ascent either. Why? Too long a hike? Nobody wants to be in a position to have to state an unpopular opinion? Fear of being shut down on a route that's respect-challenged.

I dunno, just askin

peace

Karl
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:05am PT

this dweeb poster has a one trck mind as a poster on ST:

Well, yes Matt, that's true.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:07am PT
hmmm, long way from the road, karl.
not as many adventure climbers in the valley as you might think.
i know a couple guys thinking of doing it.

also- 'has no reported 2nd' would be more accurate.

like WoS, that route could also see some ascents of the early pitches only, no?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:24am PT
studly,

good post. think about it. SG called these guys out not in person, but in a friggin how to book. and SG said he was going to climb the route. Talk is cheap. sorry but in my day, talk meant sumtin. so WTF Grossman?

If SG has the balls then he will apologize. otherwise his word aint worth sh#t.

if he at least comes forward then there is no room for us faceless internet handles to ream on him....

EDIT:
\just saw your post RJ. you are correct in that SG has some reputation to uphold and it is up to him to decide on how that ought to be done. and for your info, i have climbed with the greatest climbers of the day G. (Lowe, House, Webster). BFD. i have free soloed 5.11d. BFD. i have on site free soloed 5.10d...BFD...

none of that sh#t matters...what matters is SG threw these guys (WoS) under the bus then said he would climb the route then did not. i dont give a sh#t how many "buddies" he has on this website. he claimed he was gonna do something and then did not. so where is the man to stand up and explain?


i do not expect wonders. as you mentioned i do not use my real name and therefore my worth is less. fine. but damn it, if i said i was gonna do something then i ought to at least do it or explain why not. i dont use my name for personal reasons...but i grew up with the idea that if you said you were gonna do something hen you bye god did it or at least explained why you did not.

and if i am wrong, if i am being an a-hole, i will have no problem telling the world what an ass i have been,
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:33am PT
Lovegasoline: The slab I.Q. is thus engaged.

I clearly lacked "slab I.Q." that day at Whitehorse. I pride myself on getting down to the millimeter level when examining options for small marginal pro when free climbing and I couldn't for the life of me see or comprehend anything that qualified as a 'line', let alone a consistently repeatable route. Every ascent from my perspective would likely involve new sequences - but, those guys were slab climbers and they clearly had a sixth sense about it all and could really move over stone I would have considered impossible to free climb.

Also, from a bolting / risk perspective, it would seem to me that pretty much every bolted line, but especially slabs, are by definition contrived from a risk perspective - BY certainly is and I suspect we can safely say the top of Growing Up is as well. How could they not be - someone made a personal / executive / FA decision on the bolt spacing - isn't that 'contrived'?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:38am PT
rox- good posts there


if someone (anyone) is going to state that SG SAID HE WAS GOING TO CLIMB WOS, please back that up with a link to the post you are refering to.

taking about climbing a climb and simply saying that you can AND will do so is not the same thing.

if you are telling another to back it up, back it up yourself.



implications do not count, fyi...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:40am PT
Da-dweeb is clearly a DEVOTED WOS groupie, with his avatar being interested in one thing only, WOS. 48 posts and ALL on various WOS threads.

Accurate, accurate, and accurate.

This also must mean he is likely to be actually a well known poster locally who wants to bag on them without being called out himself..

Inaccurate.

As I have stated previously, I am a former student of Mark Smith's, I don't believe I'm well known anywhere but World of Warcraft, and at present I don't have a desire to bag on anyone. Irregardless, it would appear that I am being called out.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:54am PT

DMT:

Mimi = Shitter

Swilliam = couldn't go, so smeared some refried beans in the mix... to help out

Third Shitter = aahhhh, I'll keep that one on the dl for now...

Cheers!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 02:57am PT
Well, as you yourself seem to admit, you are exercising a compulsion or a fascination with WOS.

True. This may very well be the most legendary thread I have ever seen in any forum, anywhere, and that includes any Warcraft realm forum I've seen. At this point I have a semi-morbid, semi-optimistic fascination and curiosity about how all of this will end.

It just seems kinda strange that with all the various controversies in climbing THIS is what brings your avatar back, over and over. If you are NOT a well know poster under another name, why are you so singl mindedly pursuing this single issue? You would be welcome on other threads.

Well, that's a fair point. Like I said, I have some personal connection as Mark Smith was one of the most positive influences in my life while I was younger, and is still a good friend. At this point what brought me back was my completion of my own copy of the book Wings of Steel, and a curiosity as to how things had progressed in this thread. What keeps me here is a suspenseful curiosity about what Ammon and Kait found in their recently completed Second Ascent, as well as an interest in seeing how that changes the dynamic of interaction between all parties concerned.

Not much else to say, really. If Thorium Brotherhood or Wyrmrest Accord mean anything to you let me know and I'll PM you my character name.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:15am PT
YAAARRRRRR.... goooood night
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:18am PT
Ah the mystery third shitter on the grassy knoll.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 03:29am PT
This I disagree with insofar as ground up slab climbs are very often bolted at available natural stances, which dictate the degree of runout and hence risk.

I could certainly be wrong and never given it a shot, but I find it a somewhat dubious proposition that on B-Y there were no more possible places to have hung on a hook to drill other than the four he did. Seems to me he probably made some choices around that and wanted it spicy but survivable. Again, if that's wrong please feel free to jump in and say so.

As far as ground up drilling, I have no doubt it's stance to stance, but I've been on a few that were spicy even though there were intermediate stances. That's certainly not to say they are all that way.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:57am PT
Also, from a bolting / risk perspective, it would seem to me that pretty much every bolted line, but especially slabs, are by definition contrived from a risk perspective - BY certainly is and I suspect we can safely say the top of Growing Up is as well. How could they not be - someone made a personal / executive / FA decision on the bolt spacing - isn't that 'contrived'?

Well, on the other hand, most cracks can be protected at will and so different Ascents often have very different levels of boldness in climbing routes defined by cracks.

I'm not sure how that's any more noble. I'm not judging it, it is what it is, but to me climbing is climbing and there are many mediums for it, Ice, cracks, Slab, aid, free, yada, yada.

we create an ego identification with the climbing we do and the status quo in our community of kindred climbers (where we often conform) and then get defensive when somebody goes against our grain.

Until times change and yesterdays puritans become todays hangdogggers and sport climbers (including perhaps some who pooped on ropes)

Peace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:26am PT
I'm not sure how that's any more noble...

You should take that up with 'Rudder', he's the one pushing the the manufactured contrivance argument. My comments were in reaction to his, and the fact I find this argument, if accepted at face value, to be one which necessarily paints with rather broad strokes tainting some otherwise sacred cows in the process.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:34am PT
Rokjox-

Sorry, I don't play games…they wasted too much time unless you are hopelessly snowed in.
Aye, there’s something to be said for that. Point of fact I left it behind a year ago on entering grad school due to the time commitment WoW required. I value my experiences with the game though, it has led to some great friendships with folk from all around the planet.

The finest purpose of Supertop in my opinion is the gathering and condensing of climbing history into one place, using the actual first (and second) person testimony of the participants. I know of no other sport where the past has become pursued in quite this way and with this intensity.

Indeed. Point of fact, tracking Ammon’s past and present exploits here has me wondering if I’m not yet too old to get into Wingsuit Base Jumping – some of the videos about it have nearly brought me to tears, and I can honestly say I hear it calling to me. Also, that man is out of his freaking mind, and I respect the hell out of him for it.

Similarly, I am glad for ST as a platform for participant testimony to be provided. Like I’ve mentioned, this is without a doubt the first place where Smith and Jensen have been able to express their side of the Wings of Steel story to a significant part of the climbing community, and I’m very happy for their sake to see what’s come of it. I do genuinely hope that differences between all parties can be reconciled before the end of the day on all of this.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:34am PT
so Mimi? lol. were you a shitter? dont worry that aint my kink. MR Grossman? how come you did not man up? how come you actually wrote up these guys in a how to book?

each of you have been quiet lately. for all your hatred on the topic one would think that you might have something to say.

edit:
i did not think that riley had a humorous bone....good one
Meaty

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:36am PT
Mimi = NOT a shitter.
A woman was not involved in the incident.

And Hawkeye, STFU.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 28, 2011 - 09:35am PT
Meaty, we should focus on the good stuff. Got any good climbing pictures to share?? I don't...but here's a poor and recent one. (my son)


and Werners dog, always makes me smile.

Best post of the week Hudon on ZM: http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Zenyatta-Mondatta-Solo-June-2011/t11088n.html

In real life you have young Elvis who was so good looking and so hard core talented, and then you have Old Elvis who still had that glimmer, but was fat and rehashing all his old high spots. We see this is just about all climbers as well with a few exceptions. Then you have Hudon, but there is no "Old or young Hudon like Elvis...there is just "badass" LOL

Take care all!

chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:20am PT
Who cares?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:21am PT
Clearly, no one.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:38am PT
"The ballsiest thing a Sh|tter could do, would be to 'fess up to Mark and Richard. Apologize, and ask for forgiveness."--PTPP



Obviously, you have no clue about the world of COWARDS...



...apologize?
...fess up?
...ask for forgiveness?




Hiding cowards only SH#TE and run !
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:44am PT
I sh#t on George Lowe on Latok 1. Middle of the night emergency and I forgot he was on the tiny ledge just below me. Never needed forgiveness and 33 years later it's a humorous memory. Different motives on WOS but it WAS 29 years ago, let it rest.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Joe 'gingus' Callahan Shat an emergency projectile steaming froth all over my glasses while hanging tenuously on lead from hooks on the A5 crux pitch of the Hallucinogen.
No apology necessary then nor now 22 years later.

Like my children's book says "Everyone Poops".
GROW UP!





What is the Statute of Limitations for covert shatting?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:52am PT
You guys aren't using irregardless enough.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:54am PT
^^^^ irregardless of intent that's funny ^^^^
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:58am PT
Not irrigardlessly, I nearly sh!t on myself laughing at the last few poosts.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:05am PT
irraguardlessly: Grossman = real deal ( and a damn fine human being)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:07am PT
Did you mean POOsts
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:17am PT
more than one has said that SG is a good man. so why did he say he would climb the route then did not? why did he write these guys up in a How TO book on Ethics? you see, his writing these guys up was a way to approve what the shitters did.

now, SG may have his own motivations with Smith and Jensen, i dont know.

but El Cap is a rock and S&J are people. its one thing to disagree with peeps, its an entirely different thing to write them up in a Big Wall Ethics Chapter as a bad example.

that was low class. coming from a highly regarded individual.

i am not doing anything other then requesting a position from the highly regarded individual....but this website is as cliquish as the valley was 29 years ago.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Well, irregardless of how you feel about SG and Mimi, Amnon and Kait have still not reported what they found on the route. SC and his wife may still be right.

IMHO neither side has argued their case with much respect to the other side. When I go back and read some of the comments on both sides, I'm struck at how immature they are.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:45am PT
http://saveredrock.com/



NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT!
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Joe Healy said:
Also, from a bolting / risk perspective, it would seem to me that pretty much every bolted line, but especially slabs, are by definition contrived from a risk perspective - BY certainly is and I suspect we can safely say the top of Growing Up is as well. How could they not be - someone made a personal / executive / FA decision on the bolt spacing - isn't that 'contrived'?

By that token couldn't you also say the risk on every gear protected climb is contrived by the decision to not place bolts?

EDITED TO ADD: Philo is 100% right above, thanks for the heads up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
By that token couldn't you also say the risk on every gear protected climb is contrived by the decision to not place bolts?

I suppose so, but only if you laid down the game so long time ago you've forgotten what it is.
Starman

Trad climber
Sterling, MA
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
Philo: hiiigh five!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
I suppose so, but only if you laid down the game so long time ago you've forgotten what it is.

What what is?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
Healyjoe likes to talk in riddles. Therefor he is never wrong.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
Riddle me this: what is a riddle when it goes over your head...
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
Looks like Cooper is gearing up for a 3rd ascent of WOS.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
Yaaarrrooof!
Gene

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
Kaitb,

That ain't fair. Cooper has 10 built-in, original equipment pointed Leeper paws. No way that’s gonna count as legit.

Congrats on the send!
g
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
5.10 Paws is the new rating for pitch 2.

Hiked it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
Any chipmunk could hike it free solo.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
And if the chipmunk craters you just get another one.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
Do Hampsters count?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 28, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
One thing for sure, this thread has wings.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
I suppose so, but only if you laid down the game so long time ago you've forgotten what it is.

You and me both Joe, old farts adrift in the future.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jul 28, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
This thread has turned idiotic but congrats on the journey Am and Kait. I think I said it before upthread but saying it again through all this noise.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Jul 28, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
Aye, congrats Ammon and Kait! And to your dog, too! Now MY big question is, can you teach Cooper to Wingsuit?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jul 28, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
First Hampster Ascent awaits!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 1, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
Bump for the serious concern around the longevity of climbing threads...
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 1, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
post 1776, cool!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 1, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
This thread is far too entertaining to let it go to the dogs! (Har, har)
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 1, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
It's obvious what happened here. The silence speaks volumes.

Ammon, up on the endless expanse of the great slab, eye to eye with his own mortality, has seen the light. He went for a forty-footer and an angelic sunbeam fell over him. A little voice in his ear said, Repent, my son. No more shalt thou wallow in strong drink and squirrel suits.

"Can I get an amen!" cried Brother Ammon.

And it came to pass that the WOS TR is on hold, as Ammon is in Brazil in a white shirt and tie, pedaling alongside his companion Elder Klaus.

As for Sister Kait, she has sequestered herself in a nunnery (sorry boys.)
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 2, 2011 - 12:21am PT
Whos going to do the 3rd ascent? Mark Hugeone perhaps? :)
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Aug 2, 2011 - 01:45am PT
Twas brilliant, brother yo!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 2, 2011 - 10:11am PT
Like I always say, "To a nunnery go, and quickly!"
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 5, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
Just read the book... first half was hard to wade though... second half got better. Superstitions from a Catholic Church canonized bunch of anonymous writings from antiquities that you decide to follow by not climbing but only working on the sabbath. lol Whatever. lol In the bible they'll kill you for everything, the gods in there remind me of Francis from "Stripes." lol Pick and choose what to follow out of there, follow it all, or whatever... one superstition is as good as another I guess... as long as it makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone else.

Going along with my armchair speculation... as per the flowchart... it was described as a serious amount of work... and an absolute hammerfest (I was a framing contractor then and could have used these guys). I did not read Richard describe anything as great classic climbing. I continue to think these guys did have amazing stamina (ah to be young), but not for a great climb... but rather a controversial and very unpleasant route. Seriously, page after page describes the misery. Misery, yes, that's the word. Misery of Steel. Or, better yet, Misery by Hook and Hammer. :)

I also did read into Richard being kinda proud of suing and winning a case over his being fired from a job as par for the course. But, that is neither here nor there. Also, I still say that it was the attacks on Mark and Richard that gave the route attention.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 5, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
Greetings, Rudder!

I must admit to a certain amount of confusion... Regarding Mark and Richard, I know that neither are Catholic, and would describe their religion as very different from that of the Catholic Church. Perhaps I misread, though is this what you meant to say about their own religious beliefs? Additionally, I don't believe either have harbored thoughts of murder, nor believe such to be biblically justified. Mark, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

I did get the same sense during the book that there was a predominant misery regarding their first ascent of the route, and likewise, I did see that as a central theme in the book. From what I took away from the reading, I believe that at the end of the day it was something that they both experienced great joy and spiritual satisfaction in accomplishing, as much as I think overcoming great adversity brings a person increased satisfaction in the accomplishment of their initial goal. Regarding the route itself I am unable to comment as I have never seen nor been on it, though I do see some validity in the statement that the controversy has brought a great deal of attention to it.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 5, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Poop, poop, poop. Is that all people think about?!

In all seriousness, my understanding is that the particular incident involving that bit of business was really kind of secondary by their way of thinking to the route being chopped and the actual process of harassment during and after the first ascent. I don't really think they care much about who did it, at this point in time.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 6, 2011 - 12:02am PT
All this fuss about a variation, & a nonclassic one at that.
Meh.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 6, 2011 - 12:19am PT
wrong, the poop is the whole deal!
seriously.

chopping and criticizing, that's vanilla sh#t (as it were).


but P O O P ?
that's an iconic image right there...
and one forever associated w/ the route!

(sorry, couldn't resist! =)










one does wonder tho', is there any connection between a guilt based religious tradition and a route of redundant suffering?

(how many new pages of posts will that query launch?)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 6, 2011 - 12:34am PT

one does wonder tho', is there any connection between a guilt based religious tradition and a route of redundant suffering?

(how many new pages of posts will that query launch?)

Matt, that's an interesting point of view to explore. But given the highly polarized nature of opinions on the matter, that seems like it's a subject better suited for another thread. I believe there is already one that fits the bill - the Politics, God and Religion vs. Science thread?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 6, 2011 - 07:37am PT
Guilt based? They're not Jewish!

Suffering is part of wall climbing. If you don't want to suffer, you have no business being on a big wall.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 6, 2011 - 10:59am PT
What's all this poo about having to suffer because you are religious?

Some types of suffering is more enjoyable than others.
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 7, 2011 - 04:59am PT
Hiya Da_Dweeb!

Regarding Mark and Richard, I know that neither are Catholic, and would describe their religion as very different from that of the Catholic Church.

My fault babbling on like that. I have just always found it so funny that the Catholics made a book (organized, picked and chose from anonymous writings from antiquity, cannonized, had votes with politcal leaders over meanings, translations and interpretations, etc., etc.) and so many other groups say they are the only ones with the correct interpretation of the Catholic's book. Then the Mormons going so far as to make an additional book out of the King James English version of the Catholic's book. I was just noting that whatever christian or offshoot of christian religion you are... you are using the Catholic's book. Relating to the book "Wings of Steel" the guys noted that they spent a week of their time on the FA observing the sabbath. They would not climb on the sabbath, but they worked on the sabbath. The Catholic's book called the Bible says you must not work on the sabbath (didn't say you couldn't climb, lol). It also says the penalty for working on the sabbath is death. lol So, as with all superstition to me... it's very silly stuff. I'm just saying. ;)

I did get the same sense during the book that there was a predominant misery regarding their first ascent of the route, and likewise, I did see that as a central theme in the book.

Agreed. And, to be silly here... maybe it was their god punishing them for working on the sabbath. ;) Now, you could criticize me for saying that, but when they enter their superstitions into the picture they set themselves against the forces of reality. lol If there is a god, or gods, he/they do not have anything to do with the outcome of boxing matches, sporting events, wars, or rock climbs. Although you see alot of praying at those events. lol

From what I took away from the reading, I believe that at the end of the day it was something that they both experienced great joy and spiritual satisfaction in accomplishing, as much as I think overcoming great adversity brings a person increased satisfaction in the accomplishment of their initial goal.

Agreed.
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Aug 7, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
Mark and Richard are restricted from eating pork due to their religion... that is the biggest mistake one could ever make... who cares about WOS! Mark and Richard have deprived themselves of one of the best meats on the face of the planet!
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:37am PT
I'd like to know how a purely climbing thread made it up here with the political threads.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:39am PT
by getting all wrapped up in the politics of climbing
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2011 - 01:49am PT
Poo Boosters all? God what will me mum say?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 11, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Ayeee, job for Ammon, as it is ...

Career Vacancy: Pirate Cultural Advisor
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 01:12am PT
Hmm. I wonder... While Ammon undoubtedly has familiarity and experience regarding pirate culture within Yosemite, the climbing community, and various other locations around the world, how well would this transfer to an understanding of Somalian piracy? I hate to think of the diplomatic nightmare that might ensue were we to assume a stance of ethnocentric monoculturalism towards piracy. I can see us causing some offense were we to expect that all those who identify themselves culturally as pirates also share the same norms, mores, and traditions. It would be arrogant - or at the very least certainly culturally insensitive of us - to expect a Melting Pot scenario to occur - that all pirates should conform to what we believe is the "right" way for pirates to think, feel, and interact with others.
Mimi

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 01:26am PT
Da Dweeb the Unlucky, you've missed the point once again. Your loved ones were not merely misunderstood. And they were hardly pirates. Butt pirates maybe.

Edit: And fella, just what is it that King Richard of Hindsight and Skidious do in exchange for your services as their faithful canary?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 08:45am PT
Da Dweeb the Unlucky, you've missed the point once again. Your loved ones were not merely misunderstood. And they were hardly pirates. Butt pirates maybe.

…Wait, what? …Hold on, I think I see where you’re going with this… So from my observation and interpretation of what you wrote, it is your interpretation of my post that I was attempting to tie in ethnocentric monoculturalism to the prevailing attitude of Yosemite Valley climbers at the time of the FA, and making a statement about Richard and Mark having differing norms, mores, and values which resulted in a cultural clash. Is that correct? …Hmm. I can see where that interpretation could come from. It’s no secret that I am a friend of Mark Smith and feel that a terrible injustice was done to him and Richard Jensen. Indeed, it’s certainly no secret that I stand firmly in support of them and their actions. Given an ambiguous post in which my intentions are not clear, I can see how it would be easy to believe that I was speaking metaphorically in order to try and demonstrate a point for the “Wings of Steel Team”. Though in truth at this point in time, I don’t really see or feel the need to restate or further elaborate on my opinion of those events.

In this instance, given Ammon’s status as ElCapPirate, and k-man’s tie-in to the Pirate Cultural Advisor position (well played, by the way, k-man), it seemed an enjoyable endeavor to Keep It Surreal by tying in the concepts of my recently completed course on Multiculturalism to proper cultural sensitivity in relation to persons who identify themselves as pirates. You know, the Melting Pot versus Salad Bowl analogy we have here in the states, the concept of the systemically privileged majority instilling their norms and values on disempowered groups, etc. except in this case in relation to the cultural identity of pirates, and the unfortunate diplomatic difficulties that may ensue. Ammon being an ElCapPirate, might not necessarily be able to generalize his own views to Somalian pirates, DVD pirates, “butt pirates” (also a microaggression), or for that matter, Musical Pirates.

So, no tie-in to the Wings of Steel climb was intended, nor do I see that as necessarily being needed or called for at this point in time. Though given your willingness to address me personally on the issue, I have been meaning to say something to you. Mimi, I’m sorry for the things I wrote about you 3.5 years ago, and I apologize. While I hope you will forgive me, I also understand if you don’t. By way of explanation, in the intervening years I’ve gained some perspective – every one of us is a human being with our own deep, intensely intimate and personal pain. I can understand that you, like me and every other human on the planet, have your own pain. I believe we all act on that pain in different ways that aren’t necessarily loving nor productive – this is part of being human. I forgive you for the pain that you have caused my mentor and friend Mark Smith, and I’m moving on from it in faith.

Edit: And fella, just what is it that King Richard of Hindsight and Skidious do in exchange for your services as their faithful canary?

I spiritually identify more with the raven than the canary. Though to answer your question, it _is_ true that 2 months ago they sent me the world’s _only_ dual-signed and autographed copy of Wings of Steel. Try not to be too jealous.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Aug 12, 2011 - 09:33am PT
Wow mimi! As an adult, why does this topic turn you into someone who sounds like a terrible person when it is brought up? Wouldn't it be better to stay quiet and take down the 'mimi is an idiot' billboard?

The last time I heard a kid call someone a butt pirate was in grade 3. You keep putting this kind of stuff out there to represent yourself kiddo!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 12, 2011 - 09:56am PT
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 10:19am PT
hawt.
Mimi

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 10:33am PT
Your mentor...That explains a lot, Da Dweeb. So what do you think of King Richard? Nah, nevermind.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 12, 2011 - 10:34am PT
Holy shit! JLC was smokin' BITD. I had no idea she was that hot.

Wouldn't it be better to stay quiet and take down the 'mimi is an idiot' billboard?

"The bell cannot be un-rung".
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 10:35am PT
nevermind.

That reminds me of a great Nirvana album.
Pąte

Trad climber
Aug 12, 2011 - 10:58am PT
In other unrelated news, The NY Post is reporting that a development member of the U.S. Ski Team is being axed for pissing on an 11 year old girl during a Jet Blue flight.

Back to you, Mimi.


fakePate
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Aug 12, 2011 - 11:34am PT
Damn Jamie lee was fukin Hot in her younger days. (She is a good lookin cougar as well)
the goat

climber
north central WA
Aug 12, 2011 - 11:53am PT
The last two posts are the reason I like ST!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 12, 2011 - 11:55am PT
JLC was not one of the sh!tters.

She eats that Cougar yogurt.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 12, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
I thought the statue was Lady Gaga.
LED

Social climber
the great beyond
Aug 12, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 16, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
Looks like a new project is waiting "in the wings"
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 16, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
Did anyone observe the climb being filmed? Who is Jeff Vargen? Is he known in the climb/film industry?
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 16, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
Jeff is a Supertopian. One of his better known threads was "fighting Germans with my mom in tuolumne".
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 17, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Jeff, can you share any more details about the upcoming film? did you do some videoing for it, or was it mostly Ammon and Kait?


i found this link to a higher resolution version of the film poster shown a couple posts back - http://dopemiller.com/images/categories/Wings%20of%20Steel%20Flyer%28pdf%29.jpg
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Aug 17, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
The documentary will tell the untold story of our second ascent on Wings of Steel, the limits of our abilities and relationship, the history behind the route, and climbing ethics in Yosemite Valley. Included in the film are interviews with many players involved in the WOS saga as well as other known individuals who will be discussing the ethics of climbing.

Jeff is a great friend to both Ammon and I as well as an Award Winning filmmaker with over 25 years experience producing television and documentary programs. He is both producing and directing the film. There will be footage/photos that Ammon and I took on the wall during our climb as well as other footage that has begun being shot by Jeff.

I hope everyone will enjoy the film we are working on!
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 17, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
looking forward to it.

Prod.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 17, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
cant wait!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 17, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
I'll watch it, but what I would really like to see is a movie based on the FIRST ascent.
bdaddy

Big Wall climber
Taos NM
Aug 17, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
I hope any PTPP interviews in the film are relegated to the extended footage/xtras portion of the DVD.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Aug 17, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
I'll buy a copy if you interview one of the original shitters, no shitters, no sale.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 12:04am PT

Celebrating on Wings of Steel!
Mimi

climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 12:41am PT
Weld_it and Goatboy, the contract ink is drying.

Sure hope the real life story will be told here. Glad you two love birds are taking this on. So far, I think.

Make sure you bring the wide angle for Bwana. Isn't he the Rubber Head? Or was that Skidius Markus? No, wait. It was Gumby and the Rubberhead. Yeah, that's it.

Pretty soon we'll be able to purchase Gumby and Rubberhead bobbleheads with the fine arts nicknacks in the Ansel Adams Gallery. These guys are gonna be BIG!

Edit: I think it's great that the complete SA is benefitting from this hoopla. The FA shirley doesn't deserve to. I think Ammon and Kait should rename the route. Monkey Spunk Direct or something like that. LOL!
Bill Sherman

Mountain climber
Culver City, CA
Aug 18, 2011 - 12:51am PT
Kait, excellent picture of the two of you. Take your time and make a great film. Sounds like something that could be showcased at Banff next year.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:22am PT
Looks like their relationship survived. [What's not to love about Ammon?]

I hear they're casting Steve Buscemi to play me. I'll loan him my cheat stick and everything.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:15am PT
I hope any PTPP interviews...

He said shitters, not full-of-shitters.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:32am PT
The opening scene features Pete (played by Danny Devito, of course!) and his scrawny little pole suspended from several top ropes while desperately scratching and cursing Bwana and Skid.

Finally , a pause in the theatrical suffering and the camera slowly draws in to Pete's ass which fills the screen as a strange brown stain radiates from the center slowly covering everything...roll the title. Pete has already screen tested for this crucial scene and has the awesome pants filling power to overwhelm his britches and make the shot sing. A Scratch and Sniff scent card is also being contemplated to put the viewer right in the center of the pile! Smell is everything in this epic tragicomedy.

WINGS OF STEEL---The Real, True-Life Action, Adventure Parable of the Lamb, The Goat and the Enormous Obstacle...Or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Dimple!

A Fractured Fairy Tale...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
What a Hoser.


Hmmmmm.....







Like, take OFF, eh?!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 18, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
WINGS OF STEEL---The Real, True-Life Action, Adventure Parable of the Lamb, The Goat and the Enormous Obstacle...Or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Dimple!

Or, the final moments of the documentary could go like this....

The camera zooms in on the pock-marked, sagging features of a wild-eyed old man, trembling with decades of pent-up rage and palsy, spittle foaming at the corners of his lips, croaking:

"I was gonna do the SA! I said it again and again and again. For years I SAID I was gonna do it! So it's LIKE I did it. Me and my main squeeze went over and over it, like climbed it in our MINDS! Look at my resume. I COULD have done it. In fact, even before the FA I was wandering around the base of it thinking about the possibilities. DAMN Bwana and Skid! DAMN them.I COULD have done the FA so much better. So THINK about it! Really it's like I did BOTH the FA and the SA! For SURE the SA, because I SAID I would again and again."

There is a fading transition to a pudgy, aging woman wearing a climbing harness over her muumuu, her long, pendulous breasts just a bit too visible through the thin material. She is leaning back in a chair, mid-rant:

"...and let me tell you about why I named them 'Bwana' and 'Skid.' Or, better yet [she leans forward urgently and far too quickly, which makes her breasts do terrible and threatening things through the muumuu; thank goodness this is not 3D!], let me answer your question again about why my opinion matters. I mean, that's important! It's a good question. So let me be sure that I really answer it.

"Look at MY resume! I've tagged along on a NUMBER of El Cap routes. The exact number isn't important. And the routes aren't important, including all that crap about me not even being NEAR Wings of Steel. I have been near it, by the way, but that's not important. What's IMPORTANT here is WHO I tagged along WITH! I've been the receptacle for any number of well-known hard-men, most recently Mr. Steve Grossman! I've CONTRIBUTED to climbing! I've paid my DUES to have an opinion here. And when Steve SAID he was gonna do the SA, we like really did it! It was virtual, of course, him being all decrepit now and all. But we talked ALL about it. It wasn't even that difficult, given all the virtual dimples. We basically romped up in an afternoon. Don't know why the TA took so long! [She winks and settles back in the chair, which compels us in fascinated horror to watch the asymmetrically erratic motions of her breasts through the muumuu.] What people don't seem to GET is that when Steve SAYS something again and again and again, that MAKES IT TRUE!"

Camera fades to black, and as the credits roll, a shrill, female voice-over can be heard: "Steve is so HARD... he really DID do both the FA AND the SA! Just LOOK at his resume...."

WINGS OF STEEL---The Real, Virtual-Life Action-Adventure-Fantasy Tale of the (semi) Hard and Wild Afternoon... Or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Creative Power of the Word!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
hahahaha....

an interview of SG and Mimi would be perfect....shrill, pathetic and bitchy, but perfect....hahaha
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Before is disappears by way of revisionist history - and hats off to Richard for showing some serious skank and a beautiful mind in the gutter - here is a screen cap of some serious litch. "pendulous breasts..." Fuggin reads like Keats.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
No need to snapshot it - I'd say Richard 'nailed' it.

Definitely a portrait of the wrong couple doing the SA. Too bad the main slaggers couldn't actually suck it up and do the SA, but then slagging is so just so much easier than climbing.
Pass the Chongo, Chongo

Social climber
camped on P3 of WOS
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Bwana and Skid, are the f*#king lame names that stupid f*#king c#&% bag Mimi came up with. F*#king stupid. F*#k her, f*#king bitch!
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
Just when I was losing hope for this thread, it goes and gets good again...

Prod.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Big_Wall/Wings_of_Steel_FA_Team_78165.html
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 18, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
"...long, pendulous breasts..." ?!

My goodness, that's quite the language ... for a Butt Pirate.

Dingus, I actually look rather more like Rick Moranis than that photo suggests, especially, like, when I'm wearing a toque, eh? I got my shirt for $20, and it might even be new.

All right, we need somebody who's good with photoshop and has the right photo of El Cap - we need a movie marquis with flashing lights and stuff!

Hey - who's going to play my crab? Or could Wee-Wee cameo himself, like Alfred Hitchcock always did?

As for pirates, Johnny Depp is a mere poseur next to Ammon.

Hey Bwana - this fall *I* am going to do a second ascent on El Cap! I am, I really am! It'll be hard and everything, too.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 18, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
OMG. Pete is Rick Moranis. I wondered why we never saw them in the same donut shop at the same time.
Or some such, eh?
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Aug 18, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
I am laughing so hard right now! Pete posted what I have always thought! I about died when I saw the hoser comment with rick's picture and scrolled down to the next part.
WBraun

climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
Yeah fer sure Dingus

That's some funny ass sh'it ......
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
I love this thread! haha. And pete - that post was way too funny! You do look like him.

Ok. So far the cast for the film is:
Johnny depp playing ammon mcneely
Rick moranis playing pete zabrok

I'm scared to ask who my cameo will be?

What about the first ascentists?
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
I knew there was a reason my computer kept shutting down every time i tried to open anything WOS.

Pathetic history, i hope A & K's ascent brings this to a close!
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Oops, i guess not.
pc

climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Best thread ever!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
So the SA team is making a movie, PTPP is writing a book or magazine article and it's even possible that due to the publicity we may get a new edition of the FA team's book.

If they go mainstream, I don't see them helping the image of climbers.
Gene

climber
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Kaitb says....

I'm scared to ask who my cameo will be?


You figure that out, but I suggest a 21 year old Jamie Lee Curtis to play your Mom.


g
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
PtPP would be better cast in "A Clockwork Brown" as a sh#t stain.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
King Richard!

Didn't like my opening scene?

So nice of you to join us here during the intermezzo...

I thought that you weren't going to talk to me any more until I accepted your treatise on true enhancements...

I will accept this vastly more succinct operational definition of enhancing a placement for a narrow Leeper Logan hook taken straight from the Book of Dik.

So much easier on the brain.

Last time things went south I wanted to know if you guys planned on escaping over to the Aquarian after a month on the Great Slab when you left the ground or did you have a longer route in mind?
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 18, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
It does amaze me how long some people can hold a grudge. I'm way too lazy for that kind of thing. :)
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 18, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
I like the font used in the book.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
Miminsane writes,

"What people don't seem to GET is that when Steve SAYS something again and again and again, that MAKES IT TRUE!"

Steve, YET AGAIN, you raise the question about enhancements on Wings of Steel, as though Mark and Richard are either trying to hide something, or have lied, or have not been forthright in precisely what they did.

Steve you must know this: Richard has already answered - in his usual excruciating detail! - your [often repeated] accusations, and which you voiced yet again two posts above, right here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/963934/WoS-confessions-The-whole-truth-about-the-enhancements

Now, Steve, seriously. What's your point here? You have read his response linked above, right? Please explain your point for all of us. Or are you attempting to fulfill Miminsane's prophecy above?

Cheers,
Pete

P.S. Who do you want to play you and Mimi?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 18, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
Pete- Don't you listen to your fellow hecklers...My opinion doesn't count since I haven't been on the route other that inspecting the middle of pitch #9 where the Bwanadimples were readily apparent. Richard and Mark called me a lair for that report but Ammon and Kait's account will certainly shed some light on the situation.

Richard and Mark are committed to the position that 90% of their documented 145 narrrow Logans did not involve the use of a hammer IN ANY WAY. Scrape, sweep, set and stand up.

For a couple of guys fresh from the Riverside Quarry (and Richard half-fresh from the South Face of the Washington Column solo in somewhere between two and ten days) and with little relevant hooking experience, I seriously doubt the claim especially when it took several years of persistent badgering to even arrive at the fifteen accredited "enhanced" hook placements figure that you so blithely cite as long-established fact.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Concur with 90% number above. We await Ammon and Kait's observations.

Now we seem to be zeroing in on something here, and this is your glaring and apparent problem with pride, Steve. It seems to me that it is inconceivable to you that Mark and Richard, inexperienced as you seem to think they were - and certainly they were far less experienced than you on El Cap at the time - may have risen to do something that was really bitchin'.

You know, they really might be better climbers than you.

Furthermore, you are yet again attempting to "extract" information that has long and repeatedly and freely been given. The one thing you keep coming back to is that you presumed Mark and Richard to be liars because they had to be "badgered" for "years" before they would finally "come clean" about the enhancements. That, of course, is itself revisionist history. Mark and Richard offered that information without any "badgering" whatsoever, and even your reference out of their book [from years before they started posting on McTopo] says that they did indeed enhance some placements, how many, and exactly how they did it. So the notion that for years they wouldn't come clean is laughable. Truly, it appears as though you believe you have the power to make things "true" by simply repeating and repeating.

Steve, you are becoming extremely tiresome and lame. Dude, come up with something new, because what you write above NO LONGER MAKES SENSE. You are beginning to appear really stupid. Is your bitterness poisoning your ability to apply logic and reason to your arguments?

And for the record, I was able to do all the hook moves on your route Jolly Roger, although there was one really desperate move above what I called a "body-cleaving pinnacle", and which I found to be really hard. But by E's account, he didn't find it that hard, so I'm thinking I must have missed a hook placement. Then again, I hadn't done all that many El Cap routes before I climbed Jolly Roger, so I was kind of a n00b.

By comparison, the first two pitches of Wings of Steel are light-years harder.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
what routes are still unrepeated on el cap?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Steve, Pete is trollin' you HARD. Don't do it. DON'T!!! Walk away from the compy. Do it NOW.
Who feckin' cares? It's rockclimbin'.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
Isn't it about time for another Xtranormal installment?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
Isn't it amazing how the controversy is 30 years old (give or take a bit) but some of the participants have aged nary a day?
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Aug 18, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
In need of SA?

Ring of fire

Nightmare on California street

Turning point

*(No topo because Grossman thinks the SA team will drill on the free climbing sections)*
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:01am PT
One may fairly say that whatever and however hooks were used to catch granite on Wings of Steel in 1982, they've certainly caught other things since then.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:12am PT

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/wings-of-steel-the-film/107252046
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:12am PT
Turning point

*(No topo because Grossman thinks the SA team will drill on the free climbing sections)*

What of the rumours that that this route has since been rap bolted?
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:18am PT
SteveW,

That is so yesterday.

Prod.
Caz

Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA.
Aug 19, 2011 - 01:09am PT
It was a great gift to see this thread is still going. I thought it was done when I went on Vacation...
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 19, 2011 - 01:39am PT
Isn't it amazing how the controversy is 30 years old (give or take a bit) but some of the participants have aged nary a day?

You mean matured, yeah? ;)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 19, 2011 - 01:56am PT
...but Ammon and Kait's account will certainly shed some light on the situation.

Which is more than either of you have ever been able to do.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:56am PT
Grossman's definitely been a critic, but it goes both ways, no? As we've seen in previous threads, even the slightest critique of the route has been responded to venomously, but it is interesting to see that the latest responses have a sardonic tone.

I think I can see why many people are dissing Grossman's critique of the route, which in response he's gotten increasingly heated (and perhaps a bit irrational at times).

In my opinion, it's because so few have stuck their actual necks out on a ethical aid climbing premise. On various first ascents, Grossman's probably had many terrifying experiences which he easily could have extracted himself with a quick enhancement with a drill or chisel, but he didn't and instead had to plod on in continued terror. Perhaps it's because of the way his neurons got rewired during these experiences, and he's defending his belief in what is right.

Context is important. At the time, 100+ bolts for a route was considered highly excessive, and only Harding (who had special privileges as a Yosemite pioneer) had done routes that required as many drilled holes as WOS. Adding to the lack of purity of the actual placements--whether it be 15 or whether it be more, it doesn't matter--it's sure to get a purist's goat.

Frankly, it's been so many years, and there have been so many other routes in the 90's that required 100+ bolts, the issue seems more moot to me at this point. Of course, on the other hand, I'm interested in what Ammon has to eventually say!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 04:46am PT
Ammon and Kait,

The thought of a documentary film about wings of steel makes me giddy with glee and delight. Gleelight, if you will. I highly encourage you to see this plan through.

I like the idea of all the major voices - Steve, Richard, Mimi, Mark, and Pete - commenting on the DVD about their observation and interpretation of the facts, and then seeing how these reconcile with your own observations. As Werner wisely stated at the start of this thread, all of it will be held accountable to the standard of truth. Maybe then, some peace can be made.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 19, 2011 - 04:56am PT
^^^
Pete is in no way "a major voice", but you sir, are a major fluffer, that much is for certain!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 05:32am PT
...you sir, are a major fluffer, that much is for certain!

Oh Matt, you -promised- you'd never tell!

*Buries head in hands and runs away sobbing...*
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 19, 2011 - 07:14am PT
Deuce4
it has been my experience that the most outspoken on ethical matters seem to have pleanty of skelitons in their own closets..

Grosseman and Mimi get no slack because of how perversly crude their method of attack was. How can you possibly claim moral high ground when you defficate on your adversary?
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 19, 2011 - 07:54am PT
Mountain bluebirds do it. I dunno about their morals.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 09:40am PT
The thought of a documentary film about wings of steel makes me giddy with glee and delight. Gleelight, if you will.

Are you a guy or a girl?

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 19, 2011 - 09:48am PT
Wow, a documentary of an aid climb on El Cap, should be slightly more exciting than watching a car rust.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:00am PT
Da Dweeb is the Fractured Fairy in the Tale...
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:04am PT
In these uncertain times of economic chaos, a WOS video will be as fun as a toad in a glass of milk.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:14am PT
Yup, only slightly more scintillating than a movie about some guy trudging up a mountainside.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:22am PT
Truly, is there anything more boring than a climbing film? Well, OK, a bouldering film is more boring, but other than that?

It's definitely not a spectator sport.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:32am PT
Are you a guy or a girl?

In fact Prod, I am the unholy offspring of a guy AND a girl.

Trip on THAT one for a bit...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:34am PT
Is there anything worthwhile to hook at basecamp? As a former hooker (of some reputation) myself, it's hard to imagine anything really "hookable" there. But I'm certainly prepared to be corrected on that score.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:36am PT
And, if there's shyt there, past experience tells me to stay away... that I in fact WOULD want to miss it, or have it miss me. Just my own pathology, I'm sure.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:50am PT
Oooo... I feel all warm and fuzzy all over now. Yak manager? You're thinking of all the angles. Yer right... can't miss it! Onions? Mmmm... be there or be square!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:51am PT
In any case, like it or not, on this issue Pete is a voice that can't be ignored - both through his persistent loudmouth-ness, and the fact that he has a history of actual physical investigation into the climb itself. Back from the early days of this controversy kicking up on McTopo, Petey was the first to buck up, investigate and attempt the climb himself, and recognize that he had been wrong both about the climb, and about Mark and Richard. (This is a feat others have claimed that they WOULD do but haven't, as yet, not to put too fine a point on it.) And he had the grit to admit that he was initially wrong, too. So Hater & pals can go ahead and try to minimize or silence him, I notice that's a general strategy they've got going on for anyone who provides an argument that runs counter to their own. But you know what? Pete's got a big mouth. And a loud mouth. And it does not stop talking. And I'm glad for it, too. I'm glad that Mark and Richard have an advocate in someone who has investigated the climb, decided that much of what's been said about it is BS, and has the brass balls to not shut up about that fact, even in the face of the flak he gets for it. Kudos to you, sir Pete.

Now, between the articles and the documentary coming up, I once again suggest that it might be time for all parties concerned to suck it up, and make some kind of peace. Think about how it's going to look if some kind of reconciliation can't be made by the time this stuff goes to press. Just give it some thought, all I'm saying is that it may be in everyone's best interest to find a way to settle this and put it to rest.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:55am PT
On with the documentary! May I suggest a title? How about "Tempest in a Teapot".....er, you better make that Thimble.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Kindergarden Climbers?
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
I thought he was the YAK milker ?
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
In fact Prod, I am the unholy offspring of a guy AND a girl.

Trip on THAT one for a bit...

I guess it is really none of my business, but I was curious. I read some of your other posts and figured that you are a guy. No need to trip on anything.

Prod.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Aug 19, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
I'm a few hundred posts behind on this thread.... A movie?? What??

Anyways, I just finished the book. It's a great read. Had no idea they spent 3(?) days waiting out a storm that put snow on the top of el cap. In a waterfall.

The stats were clearly stated in the appendix. Drill and hole count as well as their later thoughts on Sea of Dreams. Really, what's to argue??
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Jim, just curious. Basically every post from you on this subject is to keep reminding everybody that this just doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, then why are you here on this thread that is quite clearly named? If it doesn't matter, why do you care? Your radio only plays one song, and I think that only Matt is really listening with you.

And perhaps you don't get it, but when you call it a tempest in a thimble, you are really and quite straightforwardly dissing on Ammon and Kait. They certainly thought it mattered... enough to pay their dues and take the falls and suffer the pain. Now, before they even get to tell their story, you're already dissing on it and undermining a good part of the motivation for it?!? I, for one, would be very interested to hear their story, regardless of it being about a route I did. My ascent was a long time ago. Theirs is current and sounds pretty dang exciting in its own right!

Are your own ascents just not getting that ongoing sense of importance they so richly deserve? Hmmm... maybe people find it less exciting than they should to hear a tale about spending three months trudging up a ridge in bad weather. I don't know. My guess is that you should have hired some people to shyte on you on command. From what I've seen, shyte is the key to getting noticed around here.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
And perhaps you don't get it, but when you call it a tempest in a thimble, you are really and quite straightforwardly dissing on Ammon and Kait. They certainly thought it mattered... enough to pay their dues and take the falls and suffer the pain. Now, before they even get to tell their story, you're already dissing on it and undermining a good part of the motivation for it?!? I, for one, would be very interested to hear their story, regardless of it being about a route I did. My ascent was a long time ago. Theirs is current and sounds pretty dang exciting in its own right!

Are your own ascents just not getting that ongoing sense of importance they so richly deserve? Hmmm... maybe people find it less exciting than they should to hear a tale about spending three months trudging up a ridge in bad weather. I don't know. My guess is that you should have hired some people to shyte on you on command. From what I've seen, shyte is the key to getting noticed around here.

while i generally believe that SG and others wrongfully diss you, you may want to go look in the mirror. stop and really take a look.....you seem to go out of your way to say, "please crap on me"....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 19, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
Say what you will, but if Ammon was up there taking repeated wingers and "watch me" made up a significant percentage of the total on-route vocabulary then it was a bad ass endeavor whether you like the line or not. Doubly so given the claimed inexperience of the FAs.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
Look, there is really only one reason anyone has any interest left in this steaming sh#t pile of a "story". We want an answer to the question of whether it is a chiseled mess (as Grossman and Mimi continuously assert) or a quality line of hard climbing.

I do not agree with this.

First off I want a time line.
-When did they get to the valley?
-When did they start climbing the route?
-When did locals take notice?
-Who took notice?
-When was "The Meeting"?
-I've heard the route was inspected at night, and deemed a bolt ladder? Is this true? Who did the inspection? If this part is true and the route is not a bolt ladder, then in my book this party is culpabble.
-Was the night inspection before or after the meeting?
-When did the shitting and chopping take place? Were the night inspectors the shitters?
-What happened when Richard and Mark persisted and climbed the route?

2ndly.
Who were the shitters. I've heard about 5 names, some a few times from a few different sources. I find that kind of animalistic tribe behavior fascinating. Were they lowly minions of the tribe trying to make a name for their selves? Where they the respected leaders? Were they indignant individuals?

3rd. Was the route bold or a hack job?

Just my $.02

Prod.
Bill Sherman

Mountain climber
Culver City, CA
Aug 19, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
Prod, some of those questions can be answered from Richard's book. With everything going on right now I went ahead and picked up a copy to read. It was a good way to spend 3 hours. It obviously can't explain the details of the who, what, and when of the choppers but it gives a really good timeline of how they underwent tackling the route on a day by day account through the first couple of weeks.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
you seem to go out of your way to say, "please crap on me"....

Ooo, ooo... I seem to have discovered another sacred cow that can apparently spew whatever crap HE wants and not get called on it. Okay, yup, I guess that means: "crap on me."

Sorry for my irreverence.

Not.

I bow to no man.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
its not a matter of bowing....when i first thought of an aid climbing movie i had the same reaction as donini...watching climbing can sometimes be like watching grass grow. but then i realized that if done right, then the movie could be entertaining.

you seem to get all butt hurt when there are any slight negative comments your way. i have given crap to SG and mimi on this and other threads because i thought that they were being ridiculous in their zeal. but you too are being ridiculous in your zeal.

i wish you nothing but the best but this whole thing has obviously caused you some severe mental issues. i hope you get over them someday but that appears to be doubtful.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
Please let Ron Anderson be the technical advisor for the film. He'll do it up right.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
You know, much is being drummed up about the crapping on the ropes.

What was quite a bit worse though was the assault made on Jensen and Smith from the Aquarian. A french team launched their paper bag of crap on them from far above, did score on Smith---covered him--- and then the french finished their climb. They even jeered down to the WOS party as it happened. That was obviously an assault. Much worse than the ropes incident.

I realize how much Mark and Richard can't help positioning themselves as embattled and martyred and they on some level need to view themselves this way even, but with this poop-throwing event, no one could blame the

While we're throwing more wood on the fire...
This from P.Haan upthread.

I'm a climber
I care.
Stoke.

A. Durie.
The Wolf

Trad climber
Friend of Dope Miller
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
I am reluctant to wade in here, but the several posts about an "aid climbing movie" or a "lame climbing film" have got me interested. I agree climbing movies are like watching paint dry and I don't make "climbing" films. What interests me about this story are the basic fundamentals of drama and storytelling. Controversy, conflict, human achievement, hardship and unrelenting desire are the tenants of this story, not clipping and hauling. Please wait for the film and then you may bash away at it, but swinging at the air is ridiculous.

Jeff V.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
i had the same reaction as donini...watching climbing can sometimes be like watching grass grow....

Re-read Jim's many (same tune) posts. He is not saying what you just said. I have no problem with what you just said. I entirely agree with it.

I do have a problem with a guy whose only "contribution" to this topic has always been to repeatedly say that there's nothing here worth discussing. And that's not about me (admitted mental issues aside). That's about anybody who thinks the topic has any importance. And, as I said, he explicitly disses on Ammon and Kait with such comments. Yes, I do have a problem with that.

It's an obvious fact that there's something worth discussing here. What are Jim's "mental issues" that ALL he ever says when he posts is the same thing again and again and again and again...: "Nothing here to see folks."

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. If that means "crap on me," then so be it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
Jim is just trying to give the perspective of a very, very,very big world to some folks, on both sides of the issue, whose world is very, very small.

i think this is the most lucid post you have ever made....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
And exactly what "big world" perspective is that, exactly?

"Guys, guys. I HAVE to keep on and keep on and keep on coming into these threads again and again and again and again... whew... to KEEP telling you that there's nothing here to talk about!"

Yeah, okay. I mean, we GET it and all, but somehow we just seem to keep ignoring his lofty, elevated (superior) "big picture."

For a guy with the "big picture," he just doesn't seem to get the picture.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
And my "small world" perspective just happens to include very, very little of this discussion any more. I haven't posted her in months. I'm rarely on the taco any more. The WoS incident is a tiny, tiny part of my psyche now.

But, that said, when I do check things out, I'm still happy to call BS on anybody that's floating it around.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
Just curious, Madbolter is Richard or Mark, and what avitar does the other one go by?

Thanks,

Prod.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 19, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
Where are the PowerPoints?
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Aug 19, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
Richard is Madbolter
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Thanks Tooth,

Hey Gunkie, you started a doosie! Good work.

Prod.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 19, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
If anyone thinks climbing Torre Egger is trudging up a mountainside, then they might want to visit Patagonia, hike up to the base of the beast and reconsider...
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Aug 19, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
Other WOS threads

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/114602/Wings-of-Steel-continued
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/147272/Wings-of-Steel-Part-III
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/186142/Wings-of-Steel-Part-IV
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=230822
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/231718/WoS-PTPP-part-XXIV
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/237614/WoS-PTPP-part-XXVI-continued-from-XXV
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=657014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/516588/Wings-of-Steel-XXVII-the-Downward-Spiral
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/959067/Artificial-Difficulty
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/963934/WoS-confessions-The-whole-truth-about-the-enhancements
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/966650/Wings-of-Steel-Shitters-I-want-names-dammit


I'm prolly missing a couple...

happy reading
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
Tkingsbury, there is a longer list of WOS threads here http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/wos/wos.html
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
Wings of Steel, a Play, in thirteen acts.

Pitch 1: Edges of ennui.
Pitch 2: Teetering in terror.
Pitch 3: Hooks of horror.
Pitch 4: Ecclesiastic enhancements.
Pitch 5: Angels dancing on pinheads.
Pitch 6: Crumbling cliffhangers.
Pitch 7: Slippery slabbery.
Pitch 8: Microdot mayhem.
Pitch 9: Pristine puckery.
Pitch 10: Drop in defamation.
Pitch 11: Fabulous flakery.
Pitch 12: Tedious tremulous traverse.
Pitch 13: Lucky coup de grace.

(Ran out of room for "divots of destiny".)
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 19, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
Wow. This is quite a thread. I don't care about the shitters, but whoever threw full cans of beer at them from above need a major blanket party some night. That's just unbelievable that a climber would do that. They need a knuckle sandwich in the worst way.

You guys know who they are, and let them get away with that crap? F*#king unbelievable.
Gene

climber
Aug 19, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Pitch 8: Microdot mayhem.

LOL.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
reconsider....

Ahh, Deucy... finally, you are getting my whole point.

Finally!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 19, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
Madbolter, it's interesting that you refer to my "same tune" posts. ALL of the posts here are "same tune," yours included, to the point of ad nauseum. I have merely been trying to bring some perspective to this lenghty post concerning less than 3000 feet of granite.
The parochialism on ST is to be expected but it often seems excessive.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
So, Richard...

Intermezzo Question #1 languishes in the aisle.

Were you guys planning on finishing WOS on the Aquarian when you left the ground?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 19, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Jim. The captain is arguably the most significant hunk of stone in the good ol USA.. people were shat appon, bolts were chopped, folks were slandered or disparged in guide books and the press, the route was not repeted for 27 years, drugs, alchohol and women were involved. That is a bunch of interesting stuff that makes up a good story that is definatly news worthy..

Reminds me of the scene in that Nordwand movie where the sleazy journalist is about to head back to Munich because the climbers are retreating. There is no story in a retreat.. He decides to stay when it looks like they might not make it. There is a story in a tradgedy..

Wings of steel has all the elements of A good story except thankfully not the tradgedy...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
I posted this on the WOS Film thread but it belongs here as well. Ammon and Kait have been VERY tight-lipped about the details of the climb, but they've let out some interesting tidbits on their film promo site
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2050292259/wings-of-steel-the-film-0

They say call WOS "the hardest route on El Capitan." Not "a hard route." Not "one of the hardest routes. "THE HARDEST ROUTE." I figure Ammon has probably climbed more El Cap routes than anyone alive or dead and knows what he is talking about.

It took them "13 consecutive days" and during that time they suffered suffered "60 foot falls" and "breakdowns both physically and mentally."

Call it what you want, just don't call it a bolt-ladder.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
You guys know who they are, and let them get away with that crap? F*#king unbelievable.

I'm sorry, Gary. You are apparently new to the climbing community. You would not think as you do if you had been around very long.

I've been around quite awhile, and I have achieved enlightenment, so let me give you the heads up here. Who knows? It might just save you a lot of anguish yourself. See, "climbing" works like this....

Climbers, by that I mean REAL, hard-man climbers... they care about ETHICS! Now, you need to understand what "ethics" means, because your comments clearly indicate that you are confused on this most fundamental point. And if you try to derive the meaning of "ethics" from what you see on the taco stand, you can get really confused. So, let me help you. ETHICS works like this....

"Ethics" refers to whatever stylistic game a particular "hard man" plays in order to maximize a particular code of stylistic values. I know. I know. It's easy to conflate "style" and "ethics," as I'm seemingly slipping into doing in this explanation. But they are REALLY very different things. And I will CAREFULLY explain everything as we go along. You see, by contrast with "ethics," STYLE works like this....

"Style" concerns whatever limits a particular climber places on him/herself in order to MAKE a climb as hard as possible without resorting to "artificial difficulty." Now that might be confusing, because you might be inclined to say that ALL climbing is "artificial difficulty" insofar as there are always easier ways to make vertical progress than "climbing," and it can get even more confusing when we talk about AID climbing, which is really the subject of this thread. So, let's get clear about that. AID CLIMBING works like this....

"Aid climbing" is the game a "climber" plays when he/she lacks the strength/skill or other physical/mental prowess necessary to "climb" (as opposed to hiking or constructing a large ladder) a section of rock that he/she wants to get up by SOME means other than hiking to the top or constructing a large ladder.

Now confusion can immediately arise even here, because one "climbs" a ladder. But if one constructs a large ladder attached to a given piece of rock, one is not really "climbing" the ROCK; one is instead climbing the LADDER. So, that could not properly be called "rock climbing," even if one did consider it a sort of "aid climbing." That would be "ladder climbing," if one wanted to call it properly "climbing" at all.

One might initially think that the foregoing explanation would offer some clarity, except for the fact that "aid climbing" on "rock" is also not really on rock. This is because "aid climbers" are really climbing on flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached TO the rock. So, one might think that just attaching a large wooden ladder to the rock and "aid climbing" that would be exactly the same thing as "aid climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock, but one would be wrong! They are two VERY different things.

You see, climbing flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached to the rock requires "skill" that is not required to climb a wooden ladder that is attached to the rock. I myself have experienced some consternation in trying to distinguish the difference here, as it has sometimes seemed to me that it could take a good deal of skill to construct a large wooden ladder and attach it to the rock and then climb that. But then I remember that I'm mistaken, and I feel solid again.

But I digress. Skill is not the only thing that makes "aid climbing" great. There is also DANGER. You see, danger is what really MAKES a hard man. When a hard man stands on his flexible ladder attached to gear attached to the rock, he can fall. Falling is often dangerous, especially if the rock is less than vertical, although, strangely, "aid climbers" do not favor less than vertical rock. In fact, many "aid climbers" denigrate climbs on less than vertical rock, calling them "slabs," which clearly means to REAL "aid climbers" that such "climbing" is not to be taken seriously.

You might think it odd that "aid climbers" valuing danger would seek out slabs, but this is not the case. REAL hard-man "aid climbers" instead seek out very overhanging rock, and it is considered very bold to negotiate one's way up very overhanging rock. Real hard-man "aid climbers" love to magnify the "danger" of long falls into space, and, in fact, "hard aid climbs" are considered such almost entirely in virtue of the "danger" of such long falls.

I myself thought this odd, until I realized a crucial point that I will now pass on to you. Brace yourself to receive wisdom.

REAL "aid climbers" denigrate "slabs" because "climbing" up flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached to a "slab" is far too much like "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to a slab. There is something about the angle. I'm not yet sure about the subtleties here, but I am sure that I'm onto what the issue is. So, just keep this point fixed in your mind: whatever you do, you want to avoid anything that resembles "climbing" a wooden ladder that is attached to gear that is attached to the rock. THAT, my friend, would really define "artificial difficulty." So, now you are finally starting to get your own mind around what is really a quite subtle point.

Now, back to "danger," which, coupled with "skill" is the defining point of REAL "aid climbing."

Typically, a "climber" ascending a wooden ladder is moving from secure rung to secure rung, so unless the entire ladder becomes detached from its connections to the rock, the "climber" is unlikely to fall. So, REAL "aid climbing" has an element of "danger" that "climbing" a wooden ladder does not.

Furthermore, lest confusion arise again, it bears clarifying that it would be "artificial difficulty" to, say, saw partway through the rungs of the wooden ladder or intentionally select precarious attachments of the wooden ladder to the rock in order to make the wooden ladder "climb" more "sporty." ALL "aid climbers" can clearly see how NO wooden ladder could be "real climbing," regardless of how artificially precarious one might make their "ascent."

Sometimes I wonder myself about the distinction, but I AM a "real climber," and so I remind myself that I'm just confused in that moment, and then I feel solid again.

Now, although it seems that we've drifted far afield, it is actually quite important that you have all this background and understand the important distinctions, so that we can bring the important points home. You see, you MUST understand what makes "aid climbing" REAL, so that you can understand "style" and its distinction from "ethics."

Remember that "style" concerned the limits a "climber" places on his/herself in order to make an ascent "dangerous" and "skillful" without resorting to any "artificial difficulty." We have already seen how the example of "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock clarifies this concept nicely. So, you see that a wooden ladder is NOT "stylish," while "climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock CAN be "stylish."

But there is another difference that importantly defines "style." A "stylish" route "uses what the rock presents." So, a REAL "aid climber" recognizes that by "climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock, he/she is "limited" in exactly the RIGHT way (watch out here!) by the rock itself! The NATURE of the gear that is attached to the rock is what really matters in an account of "style." Ahh, you are starting to see the strands pull together here! You see, the rock itself presents certain opportunities in the form of "features," and gear is designed to employ those "features." Some gear, such as (gag) bolts and rivets, can be employed regardless of the "features" of the rock, and so such gear does NOT "use what the rock presents." THAT is what makes bolts and rivets "poor style" to employ.

Now, you could be forgiven for some confusion at this point. I know that I myself have sometimes become confused at this point. So, let me help you past this hard spot.

At first you might be trying to resolve your confusion by asking, "Well, one of the main things (perhaps THE main thing) a rock 'presents' is ITSELF! So, why is attaching flexible ladders to bolts and rivets attached to the rock somehow 'poor style,' while attaching one's flexible ladders to other gear attached to the rock is somehow 'good style?'" Your confusion results from asking the wrong question!

Remember our earlier discussion of "danger?" And remember me warning you that anything "too" closely resembling "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock is necessarily "bad style?" Okay, keep those points in the forefront of your mind as I explain. Brace yourself to receive wisdom.

"Aid climbing" is ABOUT "danger" and "skill," and limiting your types of gear to only those that cope with "what the rock itself presents" is DESIGNED to maximize "danger" without ANY hint of "artificial difficulty," because employing SUCH "style" allows "the rock to dictate the terms of the ascent." You see! It's coming very clear now!

"Climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the wall is VERY different from "climbing" a flexible ladder attached to gear attached to the wall due to the nature of the "placements" one constructs with the GEAR. With a wooden ladder, one is really not allowing "the rock to dictate the terms of the ascent." Sometimes I'm not quite sure how this distinction works. But whenever I think that I realize that I'm confused, and then I feel solid again.

It's all about the GEAR and the "features" of the rock. REAL "aid climbing" is "stylish" when it employs ONLY that gear that utilizes "features" of the rock. And that is because that basic approach will tend to maximize both "danger" and "skill," neither of which tends to be maximized by "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock. So, GEAR and "features" working together dictate the "terms" of an ascent. In a nutshell, flexible ladders attached to gear attached to "features" of the rock is "stylish," while anything resembling wooden ladders attached to gear without regard to "features" of the rock is "poor style."

I'm not too clear at times about whether the "flexible" part of the ladder is what's most important, because I have sometimes thought that one could construct a wooden ladder attached to precarious gear attached to "features" of the rock, and this sort of "climbing" would be "sporty" in just the "right" way. Somehow, it seems that this would not count as "climbing" in the proper sense, and I feel unsure. But when I get confused like this, fortunately I realize that I'm confused, and then I feel solid again.

You must admit that you are enjoying some serious clarity now, and I'm not even done yet! Brace yourself to receive yet MORE wisdom.

REAL hard men have, thus, learned how to seek out "lines" on the rock that are "featured" such that certain sorts of gear will tend to be employed in "climbing" such "features." Such "lines" will avoid large "featureless" sections, because that way bolts and rivets (which, remember, too closely resemble wooden-ladder-'climbing') can be avoided... except, of course, when a "hard man" has enough of a "reputation" for being "stylish" that he can "climb" "lines worth drilling for." (Don't even go there. That is an advanced topic, and we're still getting the basic foundation under us!)

So, to sum up, "style" concerns the use of gear on "features" of the rock, with the primary goal being to avoid anything resembling wooden-ladder-'climbing' on gear attached to the rock. Somehow, the attachments to the rock have to use "features" such that "danger" arises and "skill" must be employed in the "climbing" of the flexible ladders attached to the gear attached to the rock. Although, be sure to avoid "slabs" as no REAL "climber" takes them seriously.

The simplest way to sum it up is this: "Style" concerns the limitations a "climber" places on his/herself about the sort of gear he/she uses to attach his/her flexible ladders to the rock. I recommend that you not try to make the discussion more fine-grained than I have already attempted, because if you do, you will inevitably be sucked into a vortex of confusion from which probably even I will not be able to rescue you.

Now, with "style" under our belts, we can finally turn back to "ethics," which, as you might remember, was our original topic.

ETHICS concerns how a climber treats the rock itself. An "ethical" climber recognizes that "the rock is a non-renewable resource" and so "treats the rock with respect."

I know that you are confused on THIS point, as the nature of your post to which I am responding signifies that YOU think that "ethics" has something to do with how "climbers" treat OTHER CLIMBERS! That is a very noobish mistake, which is how I recognize you for the noob you are. ETHICS has exactly NOTHING whatsoever to do with how people treat other people. "GREAT climbers" are often very unconcerned with their behaviors toward other people. They have learned to put the emphasis where it really should be: how they treat the ROCK. Their understanding of the real object of "ethics" is what makes them "great!"

I tell you this to get you past the noob stage as quickly as possible. As long as you are seeking to be "ethical" instead of "stylish," and as long as you think that "ethics" is about people instead of rock, you are mentally crippled in a fundamental way that necessarily limits you as a "climber." So, cut the confusion loose, and free your mind to be really a "climbing" mind.

ETHICS is about how you treat the rock! Got it? STYLE is about the particular game you play in your treatment of the rock, and it has fundamentally to do with avoiding wooden ladders. NONE of this has anything to do with your treatment of other people. "Climbing" is about YOU and the rock. Other people only matter insofar as they can admire your ETHICS and STYLE.

Okay, progress! Now, exactly HOW do you treat the rock in order to be "ethical" toward it? Having freed your mind from your earlier confusion, you see that FINALLY you are asking the right question! Progress!

Now you must really brace yourself to receive wisdom!

There is one, simple axiom that defines "ethics" in "climbing." ONE! It is: "Don't damage the rock." Or, because that's merely the "ideal" but is impossible in practice to perfectly obey, the practical version of the axiom is: "Do as little damage to the rock as possible while still enabling stylish upward progress." (Keep your mind firmly fixed on what "style" meant, because you can't understand the ethical axiom without that!)

Now, you could be forgiven for thinking that the axiom is vague and poorly defined. I have sometimes thought that same thing myself. Sometimes I have found that it is really difficult to have that feeling of solidity I crave. In fact, sometimes, reviewing the history of "climbing," I find myself entirely baffled about exactly HOW the ethical axiom can be understood, much less applied. One NATURALLY recognizes the conflicting demands of "danger," "skill," "ethics," and "style;" and one might wonder whether or not the entire GAME of "climbing" is really just ALL "artificial difficulty" that necessarily damages the rock in ALL its forms, when the ethical axiom can REALLY only be obeyed by not "climbing" at all! And that's a mouthful and head-full.

Fortunately, whenever I start getting THAT confused, I take great relief and solidity in subsuming my own thinking in the advanced thinking of the ELITE CLIMBER I follow! I cannot over-emphasize this point, Gary! The ELITE CLIMBERS simply think about these things at a whole different level from the rest of us. You can have solid faith in their "ethical" and "stylistic" judgments because they are ELITE. THEY JUST KNOW in ways that will be forever beyond us. So, the ultimate answer is to find yourself an ELITE CLIMBER and think and do whatever they say to think and do.

Now, you could be forgiven for thinking that I've over-simplified the matter at this point. After all, everything I've said so far just leads to the MOST pressing question: How does one recognize an ELITE CLIMBER from any of the wannabe "climbers" that mostly populate the "climbing community?" I HAVE "simplified" matters, but not "over-simplified!" Notice how neatly I have taken your morass of confusion and distilled the issues down to ONE question. (This is philosophical skill you can thank me for later.) Now, instead of countless and conflicting questions, you see that there is really only ONE question: How can you identify a genuinely ELITE CLIMBER, so that you can just do/think whatever he/she says?

And, in harmony with a simple question, here is the simple answer: Genuine ELITE CLIMBERS are those with maximum solidity.

Now you might be forgiven for thinking that I'm talking in riddles. After all, I seem to be defining one term in terms of another. But you need to understand that this is how good philosophizing gets done. And, we only have one term left to define: "solidity."

What is "solidity?" That is the final question, the answer to which is the fount of all other answers.

SOLIDITY is the PURITY of ETHIC that maximizes one's own style/ethic over all others, which knows EXACTLY how to treat the rock in all cases so as to minimize rock damage, while avoiding any hint of wooden ladder, while maximizing danger and skill to one's own self-aggrandizement. In short, SOLIDITY is unshakable self-aggrandizement, knowing that what glorifies the ELITE CLIMBER is by definition "good for climbing" and "good for the rock."

When you find a SOLID "climber" in this sense, you have struck gold, my friend. Such an ELITE CLIMBER is in his/her natural element when telling you what to do/think regarding your own "climbing" dilemmas, and THAT is an important earmark of solidity. You will just KNOW when you are in the presence of such an ELITE CLIMBER, and you can share in the confidence that they naturally have in the answers that they provide concerning all "climbing" situations.

You will have risen above noob status when you KNOW these things, and blessed are you when you find such an ELITE CLIMBER and follow him.

NOW you see how foolish your initial comments were. NOW you see why in great kindness to you I have set you straight. I have done this because I myself was once one such as you are. My own elevation came about as the direct result of realizing the TRUTH about "climbing" and thereby achieving SOLIDITY myself. Not GREAT solidity, as I still find myself questioning. I do not believe that I will ever be ELITE, sadly. But I see that you crave even my measure of solidity. So know this: I did not accomplish this alone, just as you cannot. I benefited from the wisdom of an ELITE CLIMBER from whose maximum solidity mine derives! WHO is this, you ask? I cannot tell you, my friend. YOU must recognize him for yourself. Only then can you really see him as he is. Only then can you really subsume yourself into him as he is.

But I have shown you the path.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
oooo

The plot thickens
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
So, Steve...

Intermezzo Question #1 languishes in the aisle.

Have you EVER moved a little bit of rock around in your quest for glory?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
whoever threw full cans of beer at them from above need a major blanket party some night. That's just unbelievable that a climber would do that. They need a knuckle sandwich in the worst way.

Yes. If they get hit by rockfall some day, wouldn't that be karma?

You guys know who they are, and let them get away with that crap? F*#king unbelievable.

They talk "ethics" but they don't have any ethics or morals if they will stand by someone who attempts murder.

Yes, attempted murder. Let's call it what it is. Throwing full beers or rocks down hundreds of feet onto someone's head is just like shooting real bullets towards someone's head. Attempted murder.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
And jeez, Richard, you lost me after the third paragraph. Brevity, my friend.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
Everyone has their flavor, huh, Kevin?
It's somewhat about that, or so I've always thought.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
So Steve,

When is the Steve Grossman /Mimi DeGravelle Team going to stage its ascent of Wings of Steel? I want to see a film on that!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
As is always the case when reading things that are unnecessarily long, I read only the first and last bits of Richard's 'essay'. An old school trick - you hope that you at least get the essence, if not the details. It revealed that he has achieved enlightenment, and shown us the path. Does that mean that he has become a Buddhist, and that this is now a religious thread? I mean, there's lots about peoples' beliefs here, but religion?
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 19, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Some folk are buddhists and don't even know it.
All flavors. Dig it.
BTW, Buddhism isn't Religion. (OMG, Am I actually bein' a 'Tard? Yikes!!!!!!)
Uh, ramble mamble, uh, Sports team?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 12:49am PT
Nice try Richard...

But the problem is that the central drama surrounding WOS remains one of honest and forthright disclosure on your part concerning your preparations, methods and decisionmaking on this particular climb and not at all a question of discriminatory and pernicious elitism. I guess that drum serves you so keep a bangin' ole buddy!

IQ #1---Did you plan on finishing up on the Aquarian or what?!?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 20, 2011 - 12:55am PT
looks like richard went and got hizself a set of fresh new batteries for that keyboard-

and then grossman is back?






















12K posts, HEEEEEEEEERE WEEEEEEEEE COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME!!!!!!!!!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 20, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Now THAT'S funny. Right on!!!!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:17am PT
Just answer the simple little question Richard...n'kay?!?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:21am PT
You answer first, Grossman. n'kay!?!

When is the Steve Grossman /Mimi DeGravelle Team going to stage its ascent of Wings of Steel?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:24am PT
I found a picture of when Steve Grossman still climbed. Doesn't he look dapper?
Mimi

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:39am PT
gc, only after you blow PTPP. You know he's been waiting since you stood him up and all. It's why he gets so twisted around here. So you take care of PTPP, report back, and we'll se where this goes. mmmkay!

Edit: Woe is us!!!11Somebodypleaseturnofftheblathermachine6666^6^
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:52am PT
A new picture of Inspector Javert--I mean Inspector Grossman-- with his "cheat stick" (uses it on the wall, and off).
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:08am PT

I'm sorry, Gary. You are apparently new to the climbing community. You would not think as you do if you had been around very long.

I've been around quite awhile, and I have achieved enlightenment, so let me give you the heads up here. Who knows? It might just save you a lot of anguish yourself. See, "climbing" works like this....

Climbers, by that I mean REAL, hard-man climbers... they care about ETHICS! Now, you need to understand what "ethics" means, because your comments clearly indicate that you are confused on this most fundamental point. And if you try to derive the meaning of "ethics" from what you see on the taco stand, you can get really confused. So, let me help you. ETHICS works like this....

"Ethics" refers to whatever stylistic game a particular "hard man" plays in order to maximize a particular code of stylistic values. I know. I know. It's easy to conflate "style" and "ethics," as I'm seemingly slipping into doing in this explanation. But they are REALLY very different things. And I will CAREFULLY explain everything as we go along. You see, by contrast with "ethics," STYLE works like this....

"Style" concerns whatever limits a particular climber places on him/herself in order to MAKE a climb as hard as possible without resorting to "artificial difficulty." Now that might be confusing, because you might be inclined to say that ALL climbing is "artificial difficulty" insofar as there are always easier ways to make vertical progress than "climbing," and it can get even more confusing when we talk about AID climbing, which is really the subject of this thread. So, let's get clear about that. AID CLIMBING works like this....

"Aid climbing" is the game a "climber" plays when he/she lacks the strength/skill or other physical/mental prowess necessary to "climb" (as opposed to hiking or constructing a large ladder) a section of rock that he/she wants to get up by SOME means other than hiking to the top or constructing a large ladder.

Now confusion can immediately arise even here, because one "climbs" a ladder. But if one constructs a large ladder attached to a given piece of rock, one is not really "climbing" the ROCK; one is instead climbing the LADDER. So, that could not properly be called "rock climbing," even if one did consider it a sort of "aid climbing." That would be "ladder climbing," if one wanted to call it properly "climbing" at all.

One might initially think that the foregoing explanation would offer some clarity, except for the fact that "aid climbing" on "rock" is also not really on rock. This is because "aid climbers" are really climbing on flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached TO the rock. So, one might think that just attaching a large wooden ladder to the rock and "aid climbing" that would be exactly the same thing as "aid climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock, but one would be wrong! They are two VERY different things.

You see, climbing flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached to the rock requires "skill" that is not required to climb a wooden ladder that is attached to the rock. I myself have experienced some consternation in trying to distinguish the difference here, as it has sometimes seemed to me that it could take a good deal of skill to construct a large wooden ladder and attach it to the rock and then climb that. But then I remember that I'm mistaken, and I feel solid again.

But I digress. Skill is not the only thing that makes "aid climbing" great. There is also DANGER. You see, danger is what really MAKES a hard man. When a hard man stands on his flexible ladder attached to gear attached to the rock, he can fall. Falling is often dangerous, especially if the rock is less than vertical, although, strangely, "aid climbers" do not favor less than vertical rock. In fact, many "aid climbers" denigrate climbs on less than vertical rock, calling them "slabs," which clearly means to REAL "aid climbers" that such "climbing" is not to be taken seriously.

You might think it odd that "aid climbers" valuing danger would seek out slabs, but this is not the case. REAL hard-man "aid climbers" instead seek out very overhanging rock, and it is considered very bold to negotiate one's way up very overhanging rock. Real hard-man "aid climbers" love to magnify the "danger" of long falls into space, and, in fact, "hard aid climbs" are considered such almost entirely in virtue of the "danger" of such long falls.

I myself thought this odd, until I realized a crucial point that I will now pass on to you. Brace yourself to receive wisdom.

REAL "aid climbers" denigrate "slabs" because "climbing" up flexible ladders attached to gear that is attached to a "slab" is far too much like "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to a slab. There is something about the angle. I'm not yet sure about the subtleties here, but I am sure that I'm onto what the issue is. So, just keep this point fixed in your mind: whatever you do, you want to avoid anything that resembles "climbing" a wooden ladder that is attached to gear that is attached to the rock. THAT, my friend, would really define "artificial difficulty." So, now you are finally starting to get your own mind around what is really a quite subtle point.

Now, back to "danger," which, coupled with "skill" is the defining point of REAL "aid climbing."

Typically, a "climber" ascending a wooden ladder is moving from secure rung to secure rung, so unless the entire ladder becomes detached from its connections to the rock, the "climber" is unlikely to fall. So, REAL "aid climbing" has an element of "danger" that "climbing" a wooden ladder does not.

Furthermore, lest confusion arise again, it bears clarifying that it would be "artificial difficulty" to, say, saw partway through the rungs of the wooden ladder or intentionally select precarious attachments of the wooden ladder to the rock in order to make the wooden ladder "climb" more "sporty." ALL "aid climbers" can clearly see how NO wooden ladder could be "real climbing," regardless of how artificially precarious one might make their "ascent."

Sometimes I wonder myself about the distinction, but I AM a "real climber," and so I remind myself that I'm just confused in that moment, and then I feel solid again.

Now, although it seems that we've drifted far afield, it is actually quite important that you have all this background and understand the important distinctions, so that we can bring the important points home. You see, you MUST understand what makes "aid climbing" REAL, so that you can understand "style" and its distinction from "ethics."

Remember that "style" concerned the limits a "climber" places on his/herself in order to make an ascent "dangerous" and "skillful" without resorting to any "artificial difficulty." We have already seen how the example of "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock clarifies this concept nicely. So, you see that a wooden ladder is NOT "stylish," while "climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock CAN be "stylish."

But there is another difference that importantly defines "style." A "stylish" route "uses what the rock presents." So, a REAL "aid climber" recognizes that by "climbing" flexible ladders attached to gear attached to the rock, he/she is "limited" in exactly the RIGHT way (watch out here!) by the rock itself! The NATURE of the gear that is attached to the rock is what really matters in an account of "style." Ahh, you are starting to see the strands pull together here! You see, the rock itself presents certain opportunities in the form of "features," and gear is designed to employ those "features." Some gear, such as (gag) bolts and rivets, can be employed regardless of the "features" of the rock, and so such gear does NOT "use what the rock presents." THAT is what makes bolts and rivets "poor style" to employ.

Now, you could be forgiven for some confusion at this point. I know that I myself have sometimes become confused at this point. So, let me help you past this hard spot.

At first you might be trying to resolve your confusion by asking, "Well, one of the main things (perhaps THE main thing) a rock 'presents' is ITSELF! So, why is attaching flexible ladders to bolts and rivets attached to the rock somehow 'poor style,' while attaching one's flexible ladders to other gear attached to the rock is somehow 'good style?'" Your confusion results from asking the wrong question!

Remember our earlier discussion of "danger?" And remember me warning you that anything "too" closely resembling "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock is necessarily "bad style?" Okay, keep those points in the forefront of your mind as I explain. Brace yourself to receive wisdom.

"Aid climbing" is ABOUT "danger" and "skill," and limiting your types of gear to only those that cope with "what the rock itself presents" is DESIGNED to maximize "danger" without ANY hint of "artificial difficulty," because employing SUCH "style" allows "the rock to dictate the terms of the ascent." You see! It's coming very clear now!

"Climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the wall is VERY different from "climbing" a flexible ladder attached to gear attached to the wall due to the nature of the "placements" one constructs with the GEAR. With a wooden ladder, one is really not allowing "the rock to dictate the terms of the ascent." Sometimes I'm not quite sure how this distinction works. But whenever I think that I realize that I'm confused, and then I feel solid again.

It's all about the GEAR and the "features" of the rock. REAL "aid climbing" is "stylish" when it employs ONLY that gear that utilizes "features" of the rock. And that is because that basic approach will tend to maximize both "danger" and "skill," neither of which tends to be maximized by "climbing" a wooden ladder attached to gear attached to the rock. So, GEAR and "features" working together dictate the "terms" of an ascent. In a nutshell, flexible ladders attached to gear attached to "features" of the rock is "stylish," while anything resembling wooden ladders attached to gear without regard to "features" of the rock is "poor style."

I'm not too clear at times about whether the "flexible" part of the ladder is what's most important, because I have sometimes thought that one could construct a wooden ladder attached to precarious gear attached to "features" of the rock, and this sort of "climbing" would be "sporty" in just the "right" way. Somehow, it seems that this would not count as "climbing" in the proper sense, and I feel unsure. But when I get confused like this, fortunately I realize that I'm confused, and then I feel solid again.

You must admit that you are enjoying some serious clarity now, and I'm not even done yet! Brace yourself to receive yet MORE wisdom.

REAL hard men have, thus, learned how to seek out "lines" on the rock that are "featured" such that certain sorts of gear will tend to be employed in "climbing" such "features." Such "lines" will avoid large "featureless" sections, because that way bolts and rivets (which, remember, too closely resemble wooden-ladder-'climbing') can be avoided... except, of course, when a "hard man" has enough of a "reputation" for being "stylish" that he can "climb" "lines worth drilling for." (Don't even go there. That is an advanced topic, and we're still getting the basic foundation under us!)

So, to sum up, "style" concerns the use of gear on "features" of the rock, with the primary goal being to avoid anything resembling wooden-ladder-'climbing' on gear attached to the rock. Somehow, the attachments to the rock have to use "features" such that "danger" arises and "skill" must be employed in the "climbing" of the flexible ladders attached to the gear attached to the rock. Although, be sure to avoid "slabs" as no REAL "climber" takes them seriously.

The simplest way to sum it up is this: "Style" concerns the limitations a "climber" places on his/herself about the sort of gear he/she uses to attach his/her flexible ladders to the rock. I recommend that you not try to make the discussion more fine-grained than I have already attempted, because if you do, you will inevitably be sucked into a vortex of confusion from which probably even I will not be able to rescue you.

Now, with "style" under our belts, we can finally turn back to "ethics," which, as you might remember, was our original topic.

ETHICS concerns how a climber treats the rock itself. An "ethical" climber recognizes that "the rock is a non-renewable resource" and so "treats the rock with respect."

I know that you are confused on THIS point, as the nature of your post to which I am responding signifies that YOU think that "ethics" has something to do with how "climbers" treat OTHER CLIMBERS! That is a very noobish mistake, which is how I recognize you for the noob you are. ETHICS has exactly NOTHING whatsoever to do with how people treat other people. "GREAT climbers" are often very unconcerned with their behaviors toward other people. They have learned to put the emphasis where it really should be: how they treat the ROCK. Their understanding of the real object of "ethics" is what makes them "great!"

I tell you this to get you past the noob stage as quickly as possible. As long as you are seeking to be "ethical" instead of "stylish," and as long as you think that "ethics" is about people instead of rock, you are mentally crippled in a fundamental way that necessarily limits you as a "climber." So, cut the confusion loose, and free your mind to be really a "climbing" mind.

ETHICS is about how you treat the rock! Got it? STYLE is about the particular game you play in your treatment of the rock, and it has fundamentally to do with avoiding wooden ladders. NONE of this has anything to do with your treatment of other people. "Climbing" is about YOU and the rock. Other people only matter insofar as they can admire your ETHICS and STYLE.

Okay, progress! Now, exactly HOW do you treat the rock in order to be "ethical" toward it? Having freed your mind from your earlier confusion, you see that FINALLY you are asking the right question! Progress!

Now you must really brace yourself to receive wisdom!

There is one, simple axiom that defines "ethics" in "climbing." ONE! It is: "Don't damage the rock." Or, because that's merely the "ideal" but is impossible in practice to perfectly obey, the practical version of the axiom is: "Do as little damage to the rock as possible while still enabling stylish upward progress." (Keep your mind firmly fixed on what "style" meant, because you can't understand the ethical axiom without that!)

Now, you could be forgiven for thinking that the axiom is vague and poorly defined. I have sometimes thought that same thing myself. Sometimes I have found that it is really difficult to have that feeling of solidity I crave. In fact, sometimes, reviewing the history of "climbing," I find myself entirely baffled about exactly HOW the ethical axiom can be understood, much less applied. One NATURALLY recognizes the conflicting demands of "danger," "skill," "ethics," and "style;" and one might wonder whether or not the entire GAME of "climbing" is really just ALL "artificial difficulty" that necessarily damages the rock in ALL its forms, when the ethical axiom can REALLY only be obeyed by not "climbing" at all! And that's a mouthful and head-full.

Fortunately, whenever I start getting THAT confused, I take great relief and solidity in subsuming my own thinking in the advanced thinking of the ELITE CLIMBER I follow! I cannot over-emphasize this point, Gary! The ELITE CLIMBERS simply think about these things at a whole different level from the rest of us. You can have solid faith in their "ethical" and "stylistic" judgments because they are ELITE. THEY JUST KNOW in ways that will be forever beyond us. So, the ultimate answer is to find yourself an ELITE CLIMBER and think and do whatever they say to think and do.

Now, you could be forgiven for thinking that I've over-simplified the matter at this point. After all, everything I've said so far just leads to the MOST pressing question: How does one recognize an ELITE CLIMBER from any of the wannabe "climbers" that mostly populate the "climbing community?" I HAVE "simplified" matters, but not "over-simplified!" Notice how neatly I have taken your morass of confusion and distilled the issues down to ONE question. (This is philosophical skill you can thank me for later.) Now, instead of countless and conflicting questions, you see that there is really only ONE question: How can you identify a genuinely ELITE CLIMBER, so that you can just do/think whatever he/she says?

And, in harmony with a simple question, here is the simple answer: Genuine ELITE CLIMBERS are those with maximum solidity.

Now you might be forgiven for thinking that I'm talking in riddles. After all, I seem to be defining one term in terms of another. But you need to understand that this is how good philosophizing gets done. And, we only have one term left to define: "solidity."

What is "solidity?" That is the final question, the answer to which is the fount of all other answers.

SOLIDITY is the PURITY of ETHIC that maximizes one's own style/ethic over all others, which knows EXACTLY how to treat the rock in all cases so as to minimize rock damage, while avoiding any hint of wooden ladder, while maximizing danger and skill to one's own self-aggrandizement. In short, SOLIDITY is unshakable self-aggrandizement, knowing that what glorifies the ELITE CLIMBER is by definition "good for climbing" and "good for the rock."

When you find a SOLID "climber" in this sense, you have struck gold, my friend. Such an ELITE CLIMBER is in his/her natural element when telling you what to do/think regarding your own "climbing" dilemmas, and THAT is an important earmark of solidity. You will just KNOW when you are in the presence of such an ELITE CLIMBER, and you can share in the confidence that they naturally have in the answers that they provide concerning all "climbing" situations.

You will have risen above noob status when you KNOW these things, and blessed are you when you find such an ELITE CLIMBER and follow him.

NOW you see how foolish your initial comments were. NOW you see why in great kindness to you I have set you straight. I have done this because I myself was once one such as you are. My own elevation came about as the direct result of realizing the TRUTH about "climbing" and thereby achieving SOLIDITY myself. Not GREAT solidity, as I still find myself questioning. I do not believe that I will ever be ELITE, sadly. But I see that you crave even my measure of solidity. So know this: I did not accomplish this alone, just as you cannot. I benefited from the wisdom of an ELITE CLIMBER from whose maximum solidity mine derives! WHO is this, you ask? I cannot tell you, my friend. YOU must recognize him for yourself. Only then can you really see him as he is. Only then can you really subsume yourself into him as he is.

But I have shown you the path.

I'm not reading that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:09am PT
Good. Then he should be able to just float up WOS without having to use any hookers, I mean hooks, at all!

Seriously I'm glad someone has seen Steve climbing, because all I've seen is hot air.
Mimi

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:12am PT
gc, why do you persist in being such a dork? I'm working on the list. You'll be happy to know which one you'll be on.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:16am PT
Where have I seen Mimi before? It's like a bad dream.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:17am PT



One other thing, Mimi. If you're so anxious for PTPP to get a blow job, you'll have to get down on your knees and take care of him yourself.

I really don't think he'll go for you though.

I wouldn't.
Mimi

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:28am PT
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:32am PT
That's not the Mimi I know. How many of you dweeb-schmucks have a real granite crack machine inside their home? You don't get it.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:34am PT


12K posts, HEEEEEEEEERE WEEEEEEEEE COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME!!!!!!!!!

Matt, don't use our bedroom voices.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:39am PT
As a side note to Mr. The Wolf AKA Jeff Vargen AKA the man whose film documentary project this WOS saga now is...

What interests me about this story are the basic fundamentals of drama and storytelling. Controversy, conflict, human achievement, hardship and unrelenting desire are the tenants of this story, not clipping and hauling. Please wait for the film and then you may bash away at it, but swinging at the air is ridiculous.

Mr. The Wolf, fear not. As you can see, interest in this climb isn't going anywhere. I'm considering going for the $201 sponsorship package, personally.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 07:56am PT
Also, to Gary, Johnboy, and all of the peoples who were reluctant to chew through the entire post, here's the meat of Richard Jensen's earlier message:

ETHICS concerns how a climber treats the rock itself. An "ethical" climber recognizes that "the rock is a non-renewable resource" and so "treats the rock with respect."

I know that you are confused on THIS point, as the nature of your post to which I am responding signifies that YOU think that "ethics" has something to do with how "climbers" treat OTHER CLIMBERS! That is a very noobish mistake, which is how I recognize you for the noob you are. ETHICS has exactly NOTHING whatsoever to do with how people treat other people. "GREAT climbers" are often very unconcerned with their behaviors toward other people. They have learned to put the emphasis where it really should be: how they treat the ROCK. Their understanding of the real object of "ethics" is what makes them "great!"

By the way, he was being facetious, employing sarcasm, speaking ironically.

In any case, been a while since I read a good and proper Jensen wall of text. Enjoyable as always, Richard.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:15am PT
I can't get past the "pendulous breasts" bit. It's haunting.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:00am PT
LAWL XD
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:25am PT
I knew Richard would finally show up with pages of pap and drivel about not much of import. It was only a matter of time. All is right with the universe.

But where are the PhD PowerPoint cartoons?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Aug 20, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
Da_Dweeb

I'm not reluctant at all to read the thread, as a matter of fact, I've continually read through the entire thread as it has progressed.

My, "I'm not reading that" post, was a comment to Richard (whom I respect) that I'm not going to take the time to read a War And Peace sequel in the middle of an ongoing conversation. Should each person take the time to assert their own complete and exhausting interpretation on ethics in this thread would be an overwhelming waste of space and only become a massive library of mental posturing which would deter most from trying to wade through this train wreck of diametrically opposed and galvanized opinions. Or maybe that's what he was aiming for?

I felt that to show my support for Richard, I'd be as long winded with my explanation to you as possible.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
Da_Dweeb

I'm not reluctant at all to read the thread, as a matter of fact, I've continually read through the entire thread as it has progressed.

My, "I'm not reading that" post, was a comment to Richard (whom I respect) that I'm not going to take the time to read a War And Peace sequel in the middle of an ongoing conversation. Should each person take the time to assert their own complete and exhausting interpretation on ethics in this thread would be an overwhelming waste of space and only become a massive library of mental posturing which would deter most from trying to wade through this train wreck of diametrically opposed and galvanized opinions. Or maybe that's what he was aiming for?

I felt that to show my support for Richard, I'd be as long winded with my explanation to you as possible.

I'm not reading that.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
The widely accepted defintitons of the word/concept of ""ethics"" are meaningless as redefined conveniently by The Philosopher King Richard of Hindsight as he minces merrily down Obfuscation Lane Take away his sacred quotation marks and most of his arguments lay naked and dead on the floor.

"ETHICS has exactly NOTHING whatsoever to do with how people treat other people." Jibberish even for Bwana Dik but then virtually all of western philosophy is mistaken in his royal view.

Like I said, nice try.

The Blather is mindnumbing and fully intended to be because the poor king's castle is acually vacant and haunted. He's talking a lot but he's not saying anything...obfuscation at its finest.

Unfortunately we are left with little but loyal Dweebs and devoted gnomes here at the Intermezzo so back to my ONE LITTLE QUESTION!

Richard or the far more forthright Mark, were you guys planning on finishing WOS on the Aquarian or did something go very wrong...atop the Great Slab?

Yes.......................................or No?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
I have a pack for sale over at http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1585362/Metolius-Crag-Station-for-sale
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
The widely accepted defintitons of the word/concept of ""ethics"" are meaningless as redefined conveniently by The Philosopher King Richard of Hindsight as he minces merrily down Obfuscation Lane Take away his sacred quotation marks and most of his arguments lay naked and dead on the floor.

"ETHICS has exactly NOTHING whatsoever to do with how people treat other people." Jibberish even for Bwana Dik but then virtually all of western philosophy is mistaken in his royal view.

Like I said, nice try.

The Blather is mindnumbing and fully intended to be because the poor king's castle is acually vacant and haunted. He's talking a lot but he's not saying anything...obfuscation at its finest.

Unfortunately we are left with little but loyal Dweebs here at the Intermezzo so back to my ONE LITTLE QUESTION!

Richard or the far more forthright Mark, were you guys planning on finishing WOS on the Aquarian or did something go very wrong...atop the Great Slab?

Yes.......................................or No?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I'm not reading any of that either.

Did Richard hijack Steve's account? LOL
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
Good, then go service Pete like a good little gnome...it will cheer you up! Always does!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
You and Mimi have real obsession with getting someone "serviced." Problems in the bedroom?

If you two are so eager to have someone "serviced" you can send Mimi. I'm sure she would be more than willing to oblige, assuming she can find an interested taker (that's doubtful.)

Also, does Mimi often have sexual fantasies involving garden dwarves?
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
This one is for all the WOS'ers!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
I guess I need to do this one more time???

It's bringing back some great memories!

And, as the #1SuperMama, I just have to write - you are still doing justice to the #1 thread.
The poetry the songs the pics the posts - You keep amazing me! So proud of you all!
#1SuperMama

Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
I have to say I have missed you all!

It was a fun ride!

Enjoy life!

#1SuperMama
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 20, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
Yay supermama!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
You are the devotional gnome boy-o!

Since we don't have a name for you it's the best we could do to approximate your personality in response to your smurfy little post...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
Supermama- So which Hollywood celebrity have you selected to portray your own bad self in the upcoming Big Screen epic 3-D film (4-D with the Scratch-N-Sniff cards)?!?
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
I think #1SuperMama should be played by Jamie Lee Curtis. They are both smokin' hot!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
A Star is Born!

Funny that Jamie Lee appeared upthread already!

Deucey- I would love to know what constitutes "irrational" posting on this topic? Other than the "ankle wasn't sprained, it was dislocated" squabble I can't imagine anything else rising to the level of "irrational" discourse. Care to be specific?

Perhaps it was the "quasi-historical vivisection" part. LOL
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 20, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
Steve, no offense, but when you got fired up to do the SA, it was a bit odd.

Of course we're all wondering why the issue of their intentions about the finish to Aquarian is so important to you.

On reflection, and it really seems to me that the original context has really been lost. It appears to me that the "ethical" issue of chiselling was unknown to these guys at the time, as I noticed in some quotes from 2006:


This is what I once wrote:


The difference to me is that any modification was considered a failure in the minds of wall climbers (and sometimes we fail--nobody's perfect), but on WOS it was used as a "progressive" technique for upward progress.

The other thing that most people wouldn't really realise, unless they had considerable experience establishing first big wall ascents, is just how easy it would be to create a route of nightmare difficulty for the second ascent by "creating" difficult and in-obvious placements customized for the first ascent climber. This was just considered flat-out stupid, selfish, and egotistical. And that's how a route like that appears to someone in the mindset of doing first ascents.
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Aug 20, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
Good stuff sir..."
The other thing that most people wouldn't really realise, unless they had considerable experience establishing first big wall ascents, is just how easy it would be to create a route of nightmare difficulty for the second ascent by "creating" difficult and in-obvious placements customized for the first ascent climber. This was just considered flat-out stupid, selfish, and egotistical. And that's how a route like that appears to someone in the mindset of doing first ascents.
Talk to Minerals and Eric about that ...........
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 20, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
You will need someone with more Smooch-O-Licious Lips to play Annie.
P.Rob

Social climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
Seeing the reoccurring themes of scatology, accusation, innuendos, and irreverence’s coupled with the eternal searches of meaning, purpose, reconciliation, redemption and propitiation on this thread – the size of its present state is more rope like - I have finally mustered the courage to come clean , confess and repent of my own past scatological and ethical sins – asking forgiveness from all.

While a few years after WOS, but still in the heady 80’s – somewhere around 87’, 88’ – my apologies as it is challenging to be precise – the evil of my bowels manifested while climbing Fantasia at Lovers Leap.

Approximately 24 hours before arriving in Tahoe I had inadvertently consumed liquids from a water bottle that a full blown pettier dish of mold growing on the bottom. I had not been aware of this infestation due to the color of the liquid (TEA) having been very successful at hiding its presents, only discovering it as I drained the last of the Brew. While no immediate affects were felt by the Moldy Tea, save perhaps a bit of revulsion at the idea of having consumed it, I really was no worse for the wear and was somewhat surprised at how tasty the Brew was. There was a passing concern of what might follow, but I shook off that fear with the confidence I had of my intestinal fortitude having been built up & trained by the consummation of street food and local cuisine at many a suspect joint.

Prior to the start of 1st pitch the evil aroused, a veritable, and in truth, flood of scatological effusion of torrential proportions. In truth I had never previously nor since experienced such gastrointestinal release. The brew had in effect become a galloping colonic with a projectile force of an almost possessed nature. Having tended to this need I thought all was safe – and it was until I had to leave the 2nd belay. It hit again as I started to follow the 3rd. I quickly evaluated my options, seeing them limited, I chose the following. Having no other container than the thin plastic bag that one uses when purchasing produce from the local megamart, I quickly acted. Thankfully both legs loops and my grammici pants obliged, and with moments the effusion was contained – a full of bag of liquid scat.

I have finally arrived at the crux of my testimony, and it is here that I seek absolution and forgiveness. Here I was with a full bag of shat whose consistency was completely fluidic with no solid matter. Now what to do with it? I could not portage it, and I was fearful of tossing it overboard with the many unethical taboos associated with that, no less than the fecal bag rupturing ( the material of the bag being thin as a condom and even less reliable) on its descent, spraying all below with an afternoon rain burst of shite. It was at this moment I made my fateful decision, one I have repented of numerous times in the subsequent years. I tied the bag, and all its contents, to the belay.

My hope, knowing that Fantasia was not a well traveled route at the time, is that the bag would hold long enough for the contents to finally decompose. I have always feared that the route was soon done after my heinous actions, and that the poor individuals were met by the waste of my youth. In truth, I hope none were hurt as my actions were the culminations of youthful indiscretions and impetuousness coupled with a lack of wisdom, experience and discernment.

Thank you all and I am hoping time heals all wounds. I pray that all may prosper in everyway and be in good health, even as your soul prospers.
Montani Semper Liberi
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
P Rob- Thanks for spilling your...story.

Just imagine the stew Richard and Mark would have found themselves in after 39 days up there had they been required to haul all their dookie along as climbers do now rather than being able to toss it off easily.

John- I posted my disinterest in doing WOS several times before the gauuntlet hit the floor. I was interested in climbig up Horse Chute and swinging over to Pitch #9 to inspect the top three or four pitches that hadn't been visited again.

With all the froth and vitriol, only Skip had the sense to ask why I would even want to climb such a route and I don't, never did. No substitute for direct inspection is what I said and that doesn't necessarily mean repeating and validating WOS.

I certainly have no interest in fanning the flames of matyrdom...LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:23pm PT


From 2008

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=516588&msg=517957#msg517957

Steve Grossman: "If you are using a hook as a chisel albeit an odd one the same applies. If you used a carabiner as a chisel or punch, the same. Intentional impact force. Pretty clear really."

Thank you for answering my question. Whatever other differences we have, I have to give you credit for stating strong convictions.

The "invisible" enhancements are, to me, the most serious issue with the WOS route. As you point out, such enhancements make if very difficult for a party to cleanly repeat the route, without making additional enhancements. I agree that the points you make on these enhancements are valid. But I do not understand why you accuse Richard and Mark of lying about them. The only reason we know about these enhancements is because Richard told us about them. He was forthcoming about them from the beginning.

John Mittendorf has also been critical of the "invisible" enhancements. I have found his posts to be reasonable. But the Big Walls, coauthored by John Mittendorf and John Long, states, "Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake." (p. 98) Might not doing this unintentionally cause some damage to the rock and create an "invisible" enhancement?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
Dissing a route that you have not climbed is always weak sauce.
You spout climbing ethics but what about human ethics? Deficating on people, chopping their bolts without climbing the rout.. All very poor behavior in human terms...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
A real low point for infantile provincials.


Is that quote correct? Did Long and Deuce endorse tapping hooks?
Then we must be getting into the flea circus of hair splitting.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
The internet has made it clear that few are consistent with their thoughts, words and deeds over time and it's debatable whether that would even be a virtue. I would say that if you change your mind for yourself, or your friends, the same standard should apply to others in similar straights.

It's laughable to criticize a tiny tap of the hammer to set a hook and stuff like that. A monumental percentage of big walls have gone up with major whacks of the hammer to place heads, pins, bolts, clean cracks and on and on.

Since when has anybody been that clean?

Peace

Karl
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
Turdman-Stealing my wife's line is WEAK SAUCE, Big Guy.

My credibility and record have never been an issue.

And just so you know, Mimi and I never crapped or chopped these guy's gear or route.

Try to keep up n'kay...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
Piton Ron,

Yes, this is in the 1994 edition on page 98. I have it here next to my computer.

"Hooking sounds scary, but many hook placements are bomber; some are so secure they can be left for protection, perhaps even duct-taped to the stone to secure them. Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake."




Edit--I pointed this out in 2008. You can follow the link to the discussion. Middendorf responded "the tap is meant to "set" the hook, not "create" the hook placement."

I do not doubt what his intensions are. But I want to point out that when sharp, hard steel is hammered (even "slightly") against a granite flake, SOMETHING is going to give, and it's going to be the stone. The steel is harder and stronger than the stone.

When you "set" a hook "securely" by hammering it like this, you are creating a "micro-enhancement."

There is no difference in hammering a hook into the rock or a chisel. Most hooks are just as sharp or hard as a chisel, sometimes more so.

So Middendorf, and probably many many other wall climbers, have been making micro-enhancements for years--just without realizing it.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 20, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
You guys certainly talk like 8th graders with all the name calling. you are most definatly on the side of the crappers and choppers. You have both posted many times supporting those actions. I suggest that kind of behavior is poor form and you respond with name calling. Pretty classy stuff.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
"Hooking sounds scary, but many hook placements are bomber; some are so secure they can be left for protection, perhaps even duct-taped to the stone to secure them. Sometimes a slight tap with the hammer will set a hook securely on a flake." (John Middendorf with John Long edits).

Actually, what I envisioned when writing that statement (as evidenced by the fact that we are talking about bomber hooks), there are the times when the hook is going completely over a flake that is separated from the wall. If, for example, the hook has a inch of space between the back and the tip, and the top of the flake is just over an inch in width, then tapping the hook (to allow it to spring open a bit) might help set it.

I can't really see when tapping on a hook on a flat edge would help unless you really wailed on it, and I was always too scared to do that to my thin metal hooks.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
I have no idea what you guys used back then. i only got into serious hooking about 10 years ago. The talon hooks seem realy good for thin stuff. Did you have anything that good BINTD?
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
We all already knew that Deucy.

The term was "granite flake" not edges.

But the sh'it head supertopo tool graniteclimber who's only purpose here is to stir up sh'it can't for the life of him get it.

You ever hooked? Ya idiot granite numbskull sh'it talker.

God you're a fuking tool ....
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
thanks Werner, I almost said something to that effect myself....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
Perhaps Middendorf (deuce4) does not remember.

Let's turn back one page to page 97 of his book:


For grim aid, "Pointed Chouinards" are required (a standard Chouinard hook with the end filed into a sharp 45-degree, triangular point)l. These are used in enhanced hook placements, where a shallow 1/4-inch hole has been drilled in a horizontal or sloping shelf, allowing the hook to "catch."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
I have no idea what you guys used back then. i only got into serious hooking about 10 years ago. The talon hooks seem realy good for thin stuff. Did you have anything that good BINTD?

Yes, Middendorf included a picture of a the BD talon on p. 96 along with a variety of other hooks, some very beefy and not at all thin.

On the next page, he points out "For an extreme aide route, the hook rack may consiste of ten different hooks in a variety of sizes and shapes."
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
your point....?

Some climbers drilled holes on the back of sloping flakes, and the only way to hook these on subsequent ascents was to have pointed Chouinards (filed down to a point) on the rack. But it wasn't a honoured technique, and considered poor style.

There was a lot of hub-bub when it was discovered that the Hook or Book on the Sea of Dreams consisted mostly of drilled hook placements (late 80's?), because the FA did not enhance all the placements (but they might have enhanced some, from what I've heard).
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
So what.

A small divot made to keep a hook from skating off an edge was/is standard practice.

It may be right or wrong according to the practitioner or you the internet wannabe wanker.

The point is Grossman is standing there making his opinions right or wrong while you granite tool are hiding behind a curtain throwing sh'it at him and Mimi.

You're on the same level as the sh'itters assh'ole.

What a fuking pussy .....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
the term was "granite flake" not edges.

Yes, just like the "granite flakes" enhanced or not on WOS.



You ever hooked? Ya idiot granite numbskull sh'it talker.

I've done enough hooking to understand firsthand that placing a sharp steel hook on the rock and weighting it with bodyweight (no slight tapping) can often "micro-enhance" the rock even if you don't want it to.

The softer or more crumbly the rock, the greater the damage.

If you don't believe me, take along a magnifying class and look at your placements before and after weighting them. You won't always see anything, but you'll see something often enough. The changes are very small, but those are the kinds of changes that Richard and Mark are being pilloried for.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
Tons of stuff happens on zillions of routs, aid and free. I did a climb last year in NH by one of the walk on water NE names (strand even used this guy as an example of pure ethics when ranting at me one day :) Anyways the last pitch goes free at 10a thanks to an incredibly heavy hand with the hammer and god only knows what else.. Brought one of the members of team tough up that climb this summer and all he could do was shake his head and say " that sure as heck ain't no Michalangelo...

But heck, there is no way I would have ever free climbed that pitch without the famous dudes heavy hammer so it's all good.. you would think at his age though that he would know enough to rub some dirt into the fresh scars?

My point is that almost everyone has situational ethics when the going gets hairy. some obviously go much farther than others but we all break our own rules to some extent when we get scared... exceptionally silly rules they are BTW ;)
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
Graniteclimber- Per Werner's frustration, I think it is about time for my Samoan Attorney/Bouncer to get involved. Anticipate a call anytime, most likely when you are not expecting it.

Best of luck.
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
Granite tool says: "I've done enough hooking ..."

Now how the fuk are we supposed to believe any of this bullsh'it?

We don't know who you are. Therefore you're a nobody talking sh'it.

You see idiot?

Of course you don't, since you're a pussy anonymous wanker.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
Werner Braun:

"A small divot made to keep a hook from skating off an edge was/is standard practice."

Thank you, Werner Braun!

I love you man! I knew you'd come through with the truth.

See that everyone? Enhancing the rock for hooks IS and WAS STANDARD PRACTICE!

If anyone is an expert on what is done in Yosemite, it is Werner Braun.

I'm glad this is finally settled!
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
So what. Oh yeah I'm a real expert, (said in a total sarcastic tone).

You don't know sh'it granite tool.

If I or Deucy did a whole or half a pitch of this divot enhancement Grossman would surely get on my ass.

That's OK because Steve is coming up to me as a real person unlike you granite sh'it talking wanker.

I'd respect Steve and definitely nothing you say granite wanker.

Various people did it on a placement here or there where it was merited although very rare.

Steve wouldn't ever do it I'd bet.

That's OK too.

But he'd surely wouldn't chop your pitch or sh'it on anyone's rope .....
dipper

climber
Aug 20, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
Guido is on to something there...



For the rest,

1) Do something meaningful with your time. Teach someone to read, to love, to empathize.

or

2) Keep reading this until it makes sense.


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Viverra lacinia vestibulum pede natoque nibh. Morbi quis fusce nascetur pharetra aenean. Diam vestibulum cursus et curabitur vel vel ac augue wisi est tincidunt. Dui erat tortor lorem feugiat ut. Urna nibh nulla. Risus vehicula ultrices metus a aliquam suscipit turpis risus a aliquet sed pulvinar dis blandit. Ligula massa curabitur ipsum tempus enim. Ut urna et. At sollicitudin libero. Turpis risus libero nonummy risus posuere. Commodo aliquam pellentesque. Aliquet suspendisse imperdiet a libero laoreet. A a porttitor. Quis est nunc feugiat nisl et. Felis lobortis tempor. Commodo augue nunc. Leo eros fusce ante blandit leo. Vitae dui sit scelerisque nunc in. Qui fringilla ut. Leo eu fermentum nonummy pretium wisi egestas sagittis elit mollis pede ante ut enim adipiscing. Orci vitae augue pede id aenean enim purus ligula nulla porta laoreet. Libero pellentesque phasellus. Justo sollicitudin massa sed adipiscing justo. Ipsum magna ante in libero lacus ipsum erat lectus. Montes mus nullam. Auctor litora vel nec vel amet. Commodo vel ante. Lobortis mauris platea odio sit libero enim metus molestie lacinia fermentum tincidunt nulla erat facilisis. Mi vestibulum volutpat et ullam eget sed viverra arcu. Odio nec erat. Irure vitae justo. Volutpat id gravida. Nunc volutpat sit. Vestibulum mi dolor cursus beatae pede. Malesuada eget nunc pellentesque imperdiet vestibulum nec laoreet rutrum tellus egestas elit. Donec etiam orci. Quam nec egestas. Mauris lectus nec massa accumsan nec. Lobortis pulvinar vel magna etiam pede. In duis mollis nullam libero dolore enim sollicitudin ac. Feugiat amet etiam. Consequat varius metus diam massa dapibus. Duis luctus ante. Porta ullamcorper nascetur. Vitae quam lacinia. Leo lacus mauris. Lacus non lacinia. Placerat est nullam vehicula nulla class non sapien non vulputate dui blandit libero orci et. In rhoncus quam. Quis phasellus rhoncus phasellus massa non eu adipiscing mollit. Tincidunt id nec pretium nulla debitis felis et sollicitudin. Quis nullam vel. Consequat amet reiciendis mauris quam dui sed ullamcorper curabitur. Aliquam turpis enim integer magna integer magnis sit id non molestie molestie. Feugiat vestibulum turpis.

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Non sed sit. Ante nisl sodales. Ut nec quam felis porta nulla vitae luctus sem mi ipsum egestas arcu phasellus ut. Id libero mauris. Integer libero hymenaeos. Accumsan bibendum eros. Dictumst elit ut. Rutrum tincidunt ultrices mauris integer ac. Leo odio sodales. Urna in vitae. Orci laoreet est molestie cras nostra sem vitae ut suspendisse leo odio. Duis nibh varius vivamus ac purus elit id proin egestas duis orci aenean ultrices montes in phasellus ut. Viverra augue in. Posuere in nulla in ante ante venenatis curabitur justo rutrum eget fusce eget penatibus ante. Et purus convallis. Ante lectus sit. Est velit duis. Suscipit erat praesent feugiat eu risus. In ipsum ac ut cursus nulla nunc leo etiam. Dignissim vel suspendisse. Faucibus ultricies metus augue massa pharetra. Varius ante commodo lectus nulla dolorem pulvinar scelerisque ullamcorper. Non in consequat. Vel arcu morbi. Gravida eget ac malesuada class suscipit euismod sollicitudin ac.

Leo elit quis non ornare vivamus nam odio purus. Leo lectus sed ut iaculis volutpat. In in tellus. Nulla lacus proin ante nesciunt scelerisque. Facilisis velit habitasse tincidunt volutpat blandit. Nulla in suspendisse lectus potenti dolor sed quis mi. Arcu vulputate posuere eu tincidunt sit. Tristique placerat adipiscing dictum dignissim et. Magna sit felis. Eget porta quaerat. Viverra consectetuer amet. Id id suscipit praesent wisi pede ligula tortor porta. Quis duis sed. Aliquam mattis donec sed lectus quam. Nam convallis enim posuere sit viverra at convallis nunc. Nec augue mi mauris volutpat arcu. Duis id alias. Orci tenetur nec et dui aliquam. Curae metus felis. Mi nulla erat nibh accumsan vitae ipsa inceptos in aenean dui leo. Risus nostrud consectetuer. Malesuada scelerisque donec integer urna quis quis ultricies non ullamcorper sed dolor vel ornare porttitor hendrerit aptent lacus. Sit commodo a quis varius tortor diam quis at erat sed auctor nec purus etiam. Phasellus consectetuer tincidunt orci non mi. Id lacus nunc. Natoque justo nibh venenatis id pulvinar. Volutpat et maecenas sociis nec dis tempus sit porta libero amet euismod. Diam tempor hymenaeos. Sed hac sit. Arcu vitae nulla. Non mi curabitur. Felis pede pellentesque. Malesuada aenean eget morbi tincidunt non sagittis mauris sapien. Arcu risus dui. Nec integer eros. Libero condimentum morbi ut proin mauris. Massa praesent commodo. Vestibulum enim suspendisse. Orci ullamcorper scelerisque. Gravida tempor pede tempus quibusdam est ut viverra a morbi est mi. Venenatis ut pede. Amet sit magna sit at ultricies ante nec netus. Mi dignissim diam. Donec vitae at sit wisi in sociis arcu donec c#m tellus dolor. Ut mi vestibulum aliquam iaculis quam.

Lorem turpis ante. In rutrum risus faucibus nec velit. Integer tortor lectus nullam in dui. Ea dui parturient. Etiam aliquam repudiandae. Morbi pede mauris mollis imperdiet libero a adipiscing sapien. Et erat quis fermentum massa in. Proin lacus rutrum. Morbi tellus convallis mauris pede donec enim in vitae dui est sem ac convallis viverra. Rutrum arcu sed ut amet quisque.

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deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:03am PT
I think the enhanced drilled hook divot might have been more common in the Bridwell era (hence the need for pointy Chouinards), but it was highly frowned upon in the mid-80's era. The ethic was pretty plain and simple: if you had to use a drill, put in a good machine rivet. By then, Z-macs and dowels were also considered highly dubious as first ascent tools.

We didn't see much of Steve in those days, but Walt was also quite outspoken on the preferred methods. He kept me in line a few times...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:26am PT
My credibility and record have never been an issue.

Uhh... no... false. You don't get to so neatly "rise above."

Your record and credibility are EXACTLY what is at issue in your utter refusal to answer a single, simple, pointed question repeated over many years. And unlike your troll questions, THIS question is material to the issue of your record and credibility to act as the high priest of purity you CLAIM is your position beyond reproach.

The question:

Have you EVER used the pick of your hammer to remove some flaky crud from a copperhead seam, "scraped" the top of a flake with your pick or any other implement, or in ANY other way used steel to remove even a BIT of "offending" material from a placement before making that placement?

Again, if you say "no," the whole climbing community will cry BS. And if you (honestly, if that's possible) admit that you have, then you cry BS on yourself and all your endless crap about us doing even LESS than you have over the years.

So, quit trolling and answer the simple question. YOUR record and credibility ARE in question here, particularly as you have over the last two years CLEARLY revealed yourself as nothing but a loud-mouthed poseur regard YOUR utter abortion of a SA non-attempt on WoS.

n'-kay yourself, goofball.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:37am PT
Frankly, I think the fairer question should be more, "have you ever systematically and repeatedly, in order to climb a first ascent, used the hammer and chisel to modify the natural placements on the rock?"

But Steve should honestly answer your question as posed as well.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:39am PT
but it was highly frowned upon in the mid-80's era

Okay, it's hard, but let's get the "eras" straight, shall we.

"Mid-80s..." uh, let's see... the Sea was put up BEFORE WoS, and...

1982, which would be EARLY-80s... is the FA of Wos.

But, then, there's ZM, which was by any account LATE-80s/early-90s era, and which was put up with the SAME tactics as the Sea, tactics which you have admitted included "enhancing" at a whole different level beyond the purity of what we were doing on WoS.

Sorry, Deuce, but you continue to try to float the historical revisionism that there was this neat little window of "purity" in which, apparently ONLY the "pure" were being, well, pure. And, amazingly, in your last passage, I find you condemning the BIRD! After all, it was HIS tactics that were "frowned on," according to you. And HIS tactics entirely bracketed the WoS FA, which did NONE of his tactics, by your own model even more pure than the Bird.

Hmm... I'm SO confused! I'm especially confused since in our "discussions" with (haha... our being yelled at by) many notable people in the Valley during the FA, the SEA was touted as THE ROUTE that set THE STANDARD for how routes should be done. We were told again and again: Do the Sea, and then we'll take you seriously. (Oh the hubris!) And, ironically, HAD we done an even earlier ascent of the Sea than we did, we would have put up a WORSE route than we did on WoS.

The "window of purity" you claim was not mainstream, if it existed at all. And how DARE you and a few others claim that YOUR narrow-minded idea of the "high bar" IS the "high bar" that should constrain ALL new routes? What ridiculous hubris! And why don't you just flat-out come clean with the FACT that you can't single WoS out for special condemnation? Time to come clean and be crystal clear that you are also condemning the Bird and HIS various partners.
pc

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:43am PT
You guys are like a falling cat with buttered toast strapped to its back. Perpetually spinning...

You're both close to Seattle right? Why not meet up at Angelo's in bellevue and chat it through over a bottle or two of wine. If that does'nt work then it's thrown clams at 10 paces.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:47am PT
ZM was first done in 1981. Walt and I climbed it in Winter in 1985 or so. I don't recall talking about any enhancements. I do recall getting lost on one of the early pitches, and doing a terrifying hooking variation with a bad ledge fall potential--but I certainly didn't enhance any placements.

edit--maybe you are talking about the time I smacked a thin exfoliating flake which broke off and made it hookable--I recall admitting my bad on a Supertopo post some time back, but I don't recall that being on Zenyatta, which other than the above incident went pretty smooth. In any case, I'm not defending my actions in that case--stuff like that was considered bad juju.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:59am PT
Your latest question, Deuce, is also an interesting one, but it sort of misses the point. The POINT is ANY FA team's willingness to do that AT ALL. If you are EVER willing to do it, then everything collapses into a matter of scale.

The "systematic" aspect of it is impossible to define. WE were willing to on occasion "level an edge," which, as I have carefully explained, meant knocking an offending crystal off, leaving the SAME edge that existed before and putting NO more rock under the hook (hence my denial that this is an "enhancement," as it makes the placement no more secure). NO "dimples," regardless of SG's continued insistence on demonstrating his utter lack of commitment to the truth by using that term.

The fact that we were WILLING to do this makes it no more "systematic," because we did it about a dozen times or so, than somebody that does it five times or so, or once. The WILLINGNESS to do it AT ALL is what's at issue here.

SG continually implies that he's NEVER done anything like this, but we ALL know he has, because ALL of us that have done aid climbing have done it.

And the idea that this "tactic" somehow sullies subsequent ascents is completely ridiculous. As I've said before, ALL aid ascents DO THIS! ALL aid ascents (that are not "clean") move rock around to make subsequent placements. If Jim is on the ball about any aspect of calling this discussion a tempest in a thimble, THIS aspect of the discussion really is.

And the real "context" of the discussion, going back to your earlier post is NOT the "enhancements." The REAL context is the flat-out lies told about us and about the route for decades, all of which have now been debunked. Let's recap the ACTUAL context of the past three decades, shall we?

A bolt ladder

A thousand bolts to Horse Chute

A rivet ladder

An overdrilled PoS

Almost every placement is a bolt or rivet

The drill was used on almost every placement

My grandma could do that PoS in an afternoon

Try standing on a hook

The Mad Bolters

The Butchers

Inexperienced kids that had no clue how to put up a decent route

THESE were the strident claims made by our critics over decades, and THESE claims founded the defamation campaign about us and the route.

It's ridiculously disingenuous of you, Deuce, to take THOSE decades of lies, which are now KNOWN to be lies, pitch all THAT CONTEXT behind us as though none of THAT ever really mattered, and take a VERY RECENT and utterly red-herring issue and magnify that as if IT was "the context."

Like your fabled window of purity somewhere in the mid-80s, THIS revision of history is a distorted fabrication that magnifies what matters to YOU without a basis in mainstream, objective fact.

99% of ALL that was said about us and WoS is now known to have been lies. YOU focus on the 1% of the totality that could POSSIBLY be considered a critique not based on a lie, magnify that recent issue as being THE issue, and thereby give a PASS to the liars over the decades that never even IMAGINED the issue you are magnifying. THEY were making entirely different claims, THOSE claims are the context, and those claims were lies. And anybody could see that those claims were lies by simply walking up to the base of the route and looking up.

So, let's keep our eyes on the facts! That is ALL we have EVER fought for over the years.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:00am PT
doos-
don't try to confuse ricardo with the facts bro, he's gawt gawd on hiz side and he'z right as rain, as is always the way.



Your latest question, Deuce, is also an interesting one, but it sort of misses the point. The POINT is ANY FA team's willingness to do that AT ALL. If you are EVER willing to do it, then everything collapses into a matter of scale.


and your question seems to imply that scraping away rotten rock with a utensil of any sort is equal to using a sharp piece of steel on solid rick and not considering it drilling or chipping.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:03am PT
Matt, I find it interesting whenever's there some progress on an actual discussion, he goes back to the names he was called, sort of inferring that I was one of the name callers, but in fact, as I said before, I was always pretty neutral about the route (not having climbed it) prior to all this Supertopo stuff. The fact that dubious tactics aid climbers sometimes use are being defended as the accepted norm is a bit irksome, as that just wasn't the case.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:05am PT
stuff like that was considered bad juju

By YOU and a few others. Apparently not by the Bird and his crowd.

THE problem I've had with some of you guys over the years is that you take your OWN narrow view of how things "should be done," imagine it to be mainstream, and then inflict it on ALL others as THE WAY.

So, how can you defend against the charge of being ELITISTS? YOUR way is the "best way," so it should be the ONLY WAY.

This is EXACTLY what Harding referred to in decades past: Valley Christians. Only now you guys have your own high-tech inquisition: the taco stand.

And that brings the wheel full circle.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:07am PT
uuhhhhmmmm...

i know i wasn't there in the 80's, but if it weren't for climbers having an attitude about how things ought to be done in YV, we'd all be calling it the ORG west, or canmore south!



all things being equal, this one thing the whole WoS thing has taught me personally is to be weary of carrying around judgment and resentment for decades on end... it clearly does not do anyone any good.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:07am PT
And, remind me, when was Wyoming Sheep Ranch put up?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:09am PT
sort of inferring that I was one of the name callers

Nope, never done it, and don't plan to.

My ONLY point in the referenced post was to correct you about your "the context" claim.

THE CONTEXT was never this "enhancement issue" that you and SG have made into the big deal that it never was.

My list of quotes are actual quotes. THOSE were "the context" of the defamation over the years. And THOSE are now known to be lies.

So, don't sweep aside the mountain and magnify the molehill.

The people that heaped literal shyte on us and bombed us with it (repeatedly), were not doing that because they had heard that we were making micro-"enhancements!" They had been told that we were drilling a bolt ladder up the Great Slab.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:10am PT
Gotta get back to work. I'll check in tomorrow for more all caps!

Edit--Okay, actually one more--Look, madbolter, nobody's defending the few who personally and physically messed with you back then. But you should also realise that--then as is now--nobody's immune to other's criticism either. I got a lot of it myself when I was pushing my own standards, even from some of my best friends. Any time you do something different, you'll exposed to people critiquing you--that's life.

Somebody put it well in a previous post--referring to the people who messed with you as minions. You seem to be trying to convince everyone that the whole community at large is responsible, simply because there are people who don't agree with you.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:15am PT
Hmm... I'm SO confused! I'm especially confused since in our "discussions" with (haha... our being yelled at by) many notable people in the Valley during the FA, the SEA was touted as THE ROUTE that set THE STANDARD for how routes should be done. We were told again and again: Do the Sea, and then we'll take you seriously. (Oh the hubris!) And, ironically, HAD we done an even earlier ascent of the Sea than we did, we would have put up a WORSE route than we did on WoS.

And guess what route the cover photo of Middendorf's 1994 Big Walls books is from?

Yup, the Sea of Dreams.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:19am PT
Again, so what? Some punter told you to climb the Sea of Dreams, now it's as if the whole community was telling you that.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:20am PT
dubious tactics aid climbers sometimes use are being defended as the accepted norm

Deuce, THE SEA was TOUTED as the "accepted norm!" It was held up as the HIGH BAR!

And "sometimes use" is a steaming pile, and you know it.

Your little "window of purity" never existed except in your own mind and the minds of a few other Valley Christians.

The Bird, among MANY others just didn't attend your church!

Get over it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:21am PT
I hope that Ammon's and Kait's report, photos and film, the record, and analysis thereof, actually answer the questions as to what physically was done and not done to the rock in 1982. If so, the sooner that information comes out, the better. We can then answer the question as to whether the tactics employed on the 1982 climb significantly varied from what were, or are claimed to have been, the ethos and actual practice of climbing in the Valley at that time.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:22am PT
really got to go, but it's been fun. Till later this week...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:24am PT
Some punter

Wow, apparently you WEREN'T there.

I can't say "the whole climbing community," because a million people never showed up at our doorstep.

But EVERYBODY that yelled at us (the only form of communication) told us to climb the Sea. They ALL touted it as the high bar.

And EVERY critic over the years told us that we should have climbed some of the classic testpieces first, with The Sea always heading the list.

The Valley was FULL of The Sea, The Sea, ohhhh The Sea at that time.

And, you miss Graniteclimber's point. YOU put it on the cover of your book for a reason: The Sea WAS widely considered to be THE HIGH BAR in that era.

So, don't backpedal now.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:28am PT
oh sheet- can't believe I refreshed the page.

no, the reason I put Xaver on the cover was that Bill Hatcher had done a professional photo shoot (thus a great photo) of Xaver soloing it, and he was my best friend.

Closing the browser now...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:45am PT
You seem to be trying to convince everyone that the whole community at large is responsible, simply because there are people who don't agree with you.

More psychobabble.

Never said it, never thought it, and don't think it now.

And I don't need people to "agree with me," which has ever been your distortion of my "need." What I want, not need, is for people to tell the truth.

Not "my truth," not "a truth." THE truth. The objective truth. The obvious truth. The truth that the liars and shyters had right in front of them from the beginning. The truth that the cowardly choppers HAD to have seen as they were jugging the fixed lines in the night: "Hey, where are all the bolts and rivets we came up here to chop? There aren't hardly any here! HOW the hell did these guys get up this section? THIS is no bolt ladder!" It was RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM that very night!

THAT NIGHT, Deuce, I didn't need them to "agree with me!" I would have wanted them to simply see the TRUTH that was right in front of them and choose to live in reality. Instead, they committed themselves to their act of lying cowardice, and then they spearheaded decades of self-justifying defamation.

The truth was ALWAYS right there, yet respected people kept the lies alive.

This is no "difference of opinion" on which I "need people to agree with me." And every time you cast it in those terms, as well as revise the history of "the context," Deuce, you make it CRYSTAL clear that you are not and never have been "neutral" on this subject.

Our fight has always been with those that were LYING about us. And our fight was always to establish the objective facts. There is no "agreeing with me" or "disagreeing with me" on this level. There are only facts and whether or not one lives in reality or not.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:46am PT
Well Deuce, you also included it on the "Classic Yosemite Big Wall Routes" list in the book.

I almost threw the book away a few years ago, but now I'm glad I didn't.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 01:54am PT
no, the reason I put Xaver on the cover was that Bill Hatcher had done a professional photo shoot (thus a great photo) of Xaver soloing it, and he was my best friend.

You're not quite out of the woods yet.

The question is, would you have been motivated exactly the same way to use a cover photo of Xaver soloing WoS for that book?

Uhh, right. Didn't think so.

I'm prepared to stand corrected on this. Really, I am.

But the overarching fact will remain: The Sea was widely, almost universally, considered to be the high bar in the mid-80s.

And you yourself should know that Shipley was in the meadow with a telescope almost daily when we did the fifth ascent of the Sea, because, as he told us, he was convinced that we were going to "drill it down to our level." He even went to far as to tell us that he was going to position himself across the Valley with a high-powered rifle and shoot us if drill touched rock. THAT was how highly regarded the Sea was in Shipley's mind, as he expressed it to us.

So, you're just NOT gonna convince me that even in "your crowd" the Sea wasn't highly regarded. I was face to face with Shipley on the subject.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 02:05am PT
I remember that the mags spoke highly of Sea of Dreams. I'd pull them out if I still had them but I lost them during a move. It was THE route.

But Richard, Deuce is NOT your enemy here and he has been reasonable enough. There's no point in quarreling with him. Nobody's memory is perfect, nor does anyone have perfect perspective. The way I remember things isn't exactly the way things were and that's true of everyone.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 02:17am PT
Yep that's how people are on their home turf. Protective.

It's like that in a lot places. Go to projects in LA.

When me Shultz were in Hawaii at some locals beach they wanted to kick our asses.

But we just played it cool and it took a few minutes for them to figure us out that we're no threat to em.

People are very passionate at times and want to protect the turf if they don't know ya.

They wanted to kill Us in Africa, in Peru.

What to do? It's they way it is sometimes.

Providence you can't fight it sometimes and terrible things happen and you sometimes end up right in the middle of it.

I hate all this sh'it .......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 02:24am PT
I think Werner nailed it.

It had almost nothing to do with "ethics." That was just the excuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf_culture

Localism

Even though waves break everywhere along a coast, good surf spots are rare. A surf break that forms great surfable waves may easily become a coveted commodity, especially if the wave only breaks there rarely. If this break is near a large population center with many surfers, territorialism often arises. Regular surfers who live around a desirable surf break may often guard it jealously, hence the expression "locals only." The expression "locals only" is common among beach towns, especially those that are seasonally encroached upon by vacationers who live outside the area. Localism is expressed when surfers are involved in verbal or physical threats or abuse to deter people from surfing at certain surf spots. It is based in part on the belief that fewer people mean more waves per surfer.


Some locals have been known to form loose gangs that surf in a certain break or beach and fiercely protect their "territory" from outsiders.[1] These surfers are often referred to as "surf punks" or "surf nazis." The local surfer gangs in Malibu and on Hawaii, known as da hui, have been known to threaten tourists with physical violence for invading their territory. In Southern California, at the Venice and Santa Monica beaches, local surfers are especially hostile to the surfers from the San Fernando Valley whom they dub "vallies" or "valley kooks". The expression "Surf Nazi" arose in the 1960s to describe territorial and authoritarian surfers, often involved in surf gangs or surf clubs. The term "Nazi" was originally used simply to denote the strict territorialism, violence and hostility to outsiders, and absolute obsession with surfing that was characteristic in the so-called "surf nazis." However, some surfers reclaimed and accepted the term, and a few actually embraced Nazism and Nazi symbolism. Some surf clubs in the 1960s, particularly at Windansea in La Jolla, used the swastika symbol on their boards and identified with Nazism as a counter culture (though this may have just been an effort to keep out or scare non-locals.) The "locals only" attitude and protectionism of the Santa Monica surf spots in the early 1970s was depicted in the movie Lords of Dogtown, which was based on actual events.
Localism often exists due to socioeconomic factors as well. Until relatively recently, surfers were looked down upon as lazy people on the fringe of society (hence the term "beach bum.") Many who surfed were locals of beach towns who lived there year-round, and were from a lower economic class. For that reason as much as any other, these groups were resentful of outsiders, particularly those who were well-to-do and came to their beaches to surf recreationally rather than as a way of life. Australia has its own history where surfers were openly treated with hostility from local governments in the sport's early days, and the tension never really went away, despite the sport's enormous increase in popularity. Maroubra Beach in Australia became infamous for localism and other violence chronicled in the documentary film Bra Boys, although the surfers in the film maintain they are not a "gang."

Surf Gangs

Surf gangs often form to preserve cultural identity through the protection of beach towns and shorelines. If known territory is trespassed by members of another surf gang, violence usually occurs. Long Beach is home to one of the oldest and biggest surf gangs, called "Longos." Some surf gangs have been known to not only claim land territory, but also claim specific surfing waves as territory. Surf gangs have gained notoriety over the years, especially with the production of Bra Boys.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 02:49am PT
Deuce is NOT your enemy here and he has been reasonable enough. There's no point in quarreling with him.

I appreciate your concern. I really do. And, even having no idea who you are in "real life," I've appreciated your posts.

I don't think I'm thinking of John as the enemy (certainly others that post regularly here could qualify). I'm quarreling with him only on points about which he has contributed to the ongoing present controversy about the "purity" of the route.

The struggle Mark and I have faced in recent years is that we've got to find the balance between being fighting the swirling mass of misinformation, which has involved a genuine online FIGHT; and not unnecessarily alienating reasonable people. And that's a balance that's impossible in principle to find. Worse, it's almost impossible to gather the data necessary to tell when you're leaning too far to one side. You're suggesting that I'm leaning too far to one side, and I do take that as a data point.

Mark and I have talked a lot about strategy over the last five years. It's generally considered that Mark has been "the reasonable one," while I have been the "ranter." But Mark and I are very agreed that both personas have been necessary; and we really are not in this to please people. We are both relentlessly committed to one single goal: respond to EVERY bit of misinformation, no matter how seemingly trivial, until the truth has been displayed clearly enough for reasonable minds to take over.

We're on the brink of that now. But I consider John's particular "spin" to be a significant bit of misinformation that actually distorts the situation in a material way. That's why I continue to quarrel with him on that point.

John panders to our enemies BY keeping the myth alive that there was this idyllic window of purity in the early/mid-80s to which WoS was some glaring and odious anomaly. That myth is false on both points. The window of purity is a myth, and WoS was actually "more pure" on all points than were a number of highly-regarded FAs of that era.

Establishing that fact yanks the final, tiny shred of support out from under the (now) minority position that the defamation campaign had ANY decent motivation behind it. It did not. The defamation campaign was nothing more lofty or elevated than, as Harding put it, "dogs pissing on trees," plain and simple.

Because John has raised the question, let me be clear that I don't have any reason to think that he was party to defaming us. My only point now is that his current mythology DOES pander to the defamation campaign.

And lest my current comment raise yet another round of assertions that "I need WoS to be viewed as one of the greatest climbs ever," or some such nonsense that our critics often assert at such a juncture, I'll say that neither Mark nor I have ever thought of WoS as a "great" or "wonderful" climb.

It was not as "pure" (as if that matters) as a few climbs of the era; it was far more "pure" than many; it was hard by any measure, and we weren't making it easy on ourselves; it is a type of climbing that will certainly not appeal to many people, so it will never be "classic" in the traditional sense; but, all that said, it is not what our critics have said it was! It was NO bolt/rivet ladder, and the hooking was almost entirely natural and very grim.

Fine points beyond that are tempests in a thimble. They are insignificant, contrary to what SG (and at times John) want to say. Did we knock off five crystals or 15? That's just a stupid question to ask in evaluating a route! Did the FA team of the Sea drill and chip five pounds of rock or fifty? If the question matters, then ask the questions at the same time about the same era! And, then, in that very context, ask SG the exact same question.

The fabled "window of purity" is a material point to this discussion, and I guess that I just find myself compelled to keep quarreling with John on that point. Relentless bugger that I am.

:-)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 04:17am PT
Geez Louise, y'all. I go off for the day and there's 100 posts sitting here waiting to be read. I love this thread to death, but it's eating like an hour each day just to keep up. Can someone give me the Cliff Notes bullet point version? ...Maybe I should take it on myself to create a WOS daily digest post...
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2011 - 04:48am PT
Cliff notes:

First ascent team for WoS garners great controversy over their climb in part because of a 'locals only' attitude prevalent at the time, but also because of their actions and, presumably, their personalities.

30 years later, amazingly, the matter is far from settled. One of the first ascent team has written a book about the climb. A few active participants and at least a hundred onlookers bandy wordy, meandering forum posts about increasingly minute concerns, boiling and boiling, hoping for something meaningful to precipitate. Meanwhile, they forget which questions they're trying to answer and their pettifoggery reaches a new level of intensity and pointlessness.

Promise of an answer begins to emerge, but of course it hinges on a movie of the second ascent of the aforementioned climb that will only be finished if it receives enough funding. Paradoxically, the movie answers nothing as the parties involved realize that the argument was never about the difficulty, integrity or quality of the route itself; rather, they simply never accepted each others' opinions and, after incidents including ropes soiled in feces and numerous altercations nearly three decades ago, cannot, for some unknown reason, move beyond this quagmire of guilt, accusation and self-doubt.

Alternate ending: Ammon and Kait's ascent somehow validates the first ascentionists' efforts as humans, forcing their doubters and critics (who have also somehow harbored their feelings with the same ardor as the first ascent team) and also themselves to strike a more conciliatory tone. Everyone rides off into the sunset together and the Wings of Steel thread only reaches 3000 posts in 2025 after bumps for the 3rd, 4th and 5th ascents; 500 of those posts will concern the chicken rivets and hook enhancements drilled by the 4th ascent party, who will spend the next 30 years on the internet arguing about ethics.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 04:50am PT
Drewsky, you are an amazing individual, and I thank you kindly for your most recent post.
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2011 - 04:54am PT
I've come to believe this thread is a fascinating psychological study-in-the-making and thus somehow worth the time required to wade through its copious muck.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 05:12am PT
Werner -

Providence you can't fight it sometimes and terrible things happen and you sometimes end up right in the middle of it.

I hate all this sh'it .......

All right. So, I'm a bit drunk right now, I apologize if I say or assume anything stupid. But I'mma gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that you are being sincerious. Sinceriously sincerious. If you are, I'm thinking maybe there's a possibility we can talk about what to do to bring all of this to a genuine conclusion. Wait, wait, Werner, don't naysay just yet or say that people are too "damaged" or don't want peace or whatnot just yet. I don't think that a real attempt at genuine reconciliation or acknowledgment has yet been made and I think it's possible we could do so if we join forces like a pair of big fuzzy Superfriends. I think Drewsky's got a point, and I follow what he's saying. The big obstacle to any progress being made in this debate is that (dun dun dun DUN): Nobody's acknowledging anyone else's opinion.

Richard, before you get upset regarding this post, don't get me wrong I'm not excusing anybody's behavior nor saying they were justified, I think it was a travesty what was done to you then, what happened over the last 30 freaking years, and what's happening now. I think also that you're in a position where, as you said, it's only the minority who believe otherwise. I think that puts you at an advantage in this situation, honestly.

At the same time - Werner help me out here if you will - I think there's been so much of a polarization on the issue that no one can even acknowledge the point of view of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs. I think that - apologies or forgiveness notwithstanding - this issue could be discussed a lot more productively from the point of view that people had reasons to do what they did that were totally valid to them. I'm not asking for judgments on those reasons, I'm just saying that in their minds it made sense, and that's why they did it. Yes, I know that doesn't justify their behavior, I'm not asking for agreement with their justifications of their actions, simply acknowledgment of where they were coming from. And for there to be some kind of resolution here, that needs to happen on both sides of the issue.

Doing that, I think, is the big step that's needed to bring about an end to the conflict in such a way that folk on all sides can walk away from it. I know for damn sure that won't happen if I'm the only one saying it. So, Werner, it's an acknowledged fact that you are a generally well respected and regarded individual, and that puts you in one hell of a position to do a lot of good on this issue if you so choose. Mind you I'm not saying you're responsible for what other people do, think, or feel, I'm only saying that your opinion has a lot of weight. If you so choose, we - or even just you (if you want it that way) - could push for arbitration, mediation, and peacemaking. Is this something that sounds agreeable to you? Let me know what your thoughts are.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 09:40am PT
You have GOT to be kidding, right?

I'm sorry, was I overdoing it?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:08am PT
Long as your liver can handle it.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:26am PT
Bladder's what I'm worried about more at the moment.

I still stand by that post though. Looking back, I'm not seeing any typos. That's a good sign.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:46am PT
I've always been willing to talk with rational people.

Some evidence to the contrary, I'm not a complete jerk. :-)

But I won't be "conciliatory" or codependent. If you think there's "reconciliation" to be had that doesn't involve me saying anything like, "Well, guys, yeah, I guess I can see why you reacted the way you did, and, it's, like, okay. We all got a little over the top back then," or some tripe like that, well, I'm all ears.

"Personalities" might have been a factor, but that's not an explanation or justification.

"Turf mentality" was certainly a factor, but that's not only NOT a justification, it ADDS to culpability, especially in a NATIONAL PARK!

And so on....

And you show me the last time "turf minded" surfers spent decades in an orchestrated defamation campaign.

Just sayin'.... (as they say)

So, whaddayawantfromme???
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:59am PT
I'm only putting up money if it goes to DVD with drewsky's alternate ending.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:07am PT
But I won't be "conciliatory" or codependent. If you think there's "reconciliation" to be had that doesn't involve me saying anything like, "Well, guys, yeah, I guess I can see why you reacted the way you did, and, it's, like, okay. We all got a little over the top back then," or some tripe like that, well, I'm all ears.

Indeed, indeed. That’s certainly not what I’m asking. In addition to personally not seeing that as the case, further were I to ask that, I would be adding insult to injury and furthering the mess. No, I'm not for one second going to say that you should be saying it's okay, because what happened wasn't okay by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I'm concerned there's no 'compromise' on that point. No, what I'm hoping can happen -on both sides- is the statement of just the first half of that sentence.

"Well guys, yeah, I can see why you acted the way you did. You had reason X,Y,Z."

No values attached to it. No approval, no disapproval, just a statement that indicates an understanding of the other's reasoning. Not followed by an argument, or name calling, or value judgment of any kind.

The idea is to demonstrate an understanding of the other party's position. It's also to try something different from the point-counterpoint/attack-counterattack approach which has been very effective for a number of reasons in the past, but doesn't seem to be particularly productive in the present for moving toward a resolution.

I'm also asking for Werner's help, because to see this come to an end, it's important that the other side of the equation be able to do the same thing. Also - and I should make this clear - I'm not asking you - or them - to do this right _now_. I'm saying that with some time, discussion, and planning, possibly even over the next couple of days, it could be done. Ideally, here on the forum for everyone to see.

There's a lot of very good reasons I think, for both parties to do this. Not least of which being that when Ammon and Kait give their statement of what they found on the climb, what they say will be the gold standard of objective investigation on the matter. Resolving the issue before their articles or movie are released will a) allow for the saving of significantly more face on the part of the party that is in error, and b) reflect significantly more positively toward those parties that actively try to make peace with the matter - and each other - beforehand.

There are a few other reasons I can name, but perhaps it's a discussion to continue privately, or later in the day, as it's now way past my bedtime.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:47am PT
"The truth that the cowardly choppers HAD to have seen as they were jugging the fixed lines in the night: "Hey, where are all the bolts and rivets we came up here to chop? There aren't hardly any here! HOW the hell did these guys get up this section? THIS is no bolt ladder!" It was RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM that very night!"

Yes, this bit has always been amazing to me. If you grab a pair of binoculars, you can see from the ground that it's not a rivet ladder. And it's certainly obvious while standing in your aiders that the bolts and rivets are very far apart, resulting in long, scary and dangerous runouts.

The choppers must have been blind drunk not to have realized this while dangling from a fixed rope.

Edit: Speaking of localism - I really enjoyed the link above. As a collective group of sportmen, I have never met bigger @ssholes than the surfers in Hawai'i, especially on Oahu.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
localism rules...... go HOME kook .............heh heh heh.... you too pete eh?
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
Ya know ....

Richard and Mark were not the first and only ones to suffer under this type of behavior.

For example;

Even Ron Kauk was heavily attacked verbally for starting "The Official" rap bolting.

Bachar and his goons went ape sh'it over that. Called him all kinds names and said he's officially done as far as climber.

Fuking hilarious.

Ron knew it would probably happen and was ready for it. He'd stand right in your face and call ya out and kick your ass if it came down to that.

He had the balls too stand up for what he believed whether right or wrong against this mentality.

Charlie Porter was a victim too.

There's no free ride in this world .....
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Kauk= LOCAL ...... HERE HERE!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Good points, Werner.

The difference between Ron Kauk's tale and that of Mark and Richard is that Ron was attacked for what he actually did - the truth. And as a Local, he probably got away with more than if some Outsider, like say Alan Watts, suddenly showed up and started rap bolting.

Mark and Richard were attacked mostly for what they were assumed to have done, but for the most part, didn't actually do. The attacks on the WoS guys were mostly based on lies, and continued for a very long time afterwards.
tarek

climber
berkeley
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
for the 100th time I ask myself why I return to read thru this kind of crap on ST. looking for something to "precipitate" is correct, I guess. Actually, that never happens. best stuff on ST is someone describing details of a climb, or ways to improve your chances of survival, or how to train or something like that.

but my skim selects the post on this pile that seems best to me:
Warbler wrote: This whole WOS thing is like The Jerry Springer Show of climbing.

Makes me embarrassed to be a climber, or associated with Yosemite climbing.

The only criticism I might muster for the route is that it's not a completely independent line, but the start is outrageously independent, so that makes up for the finish, really. El Cap is infested with contrived lines, at least WOS gives its neighbors breathing room.

15 "enhanced" hook placements? BFD 30? BFD It's AID climbing. It's better to enhance a hole with a drill bit and put a rivet in it, as long as you fess up on the hole count before the Ethics Police? Whatever, guys.

How come there isn't this type of interest in free routes on EL Cap on ST, or elsewhere in The Valley? That's where the positive energy is going.

Maybe aid climbers just drink too much...

When a few of us ventured out onto the slabs of MCR, leaving the crack systems behind, there were a few grumblings from the previous generation about bolts, drilling and indistinct lines. Fuk those guys, I remember thinking - climb the route before you voice your opinion about it.

Didn't someone say "climbing is anarchy"?

It was and it should be.

Viva Harding, he climbed the thing first


End of rant.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
No it's the same Pete.

It was assumed that if Ron Kauk did it then every Gym Jones would swarm to the Valley and rap bolt the sh'it out of the place.

Everyone pretty much knew Ron knows what he's doing.

It's the FEAR that drives this stuff.

Some people know how to rap bolt intelligently where it's warranted.

Some yahoos rap bolt everything in sight like maniacs.

Edit: By the way climbers in general are not saints. They operate predominately in the mode of passion. So this kind sh'it will happen.

Maybe Richard and mark are saints? I wouldn't know .....
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
Somewhere between a mercenary and a missionary is a guy like me.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 21, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
Pete please don't include your sexual fantasies. Thank you. ............HAHAHAHA ( you set yourself up for that one!)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
Yeah, lots of wisdom. People in general aren't saints, so when all sorts of shyte happens, we just say, "Well, shyte happens," and that's all we need to say. End of story; nothing more to see here; move along.

The really wise part is that it's an explanation and a justification all rolled up into one. Pretty slick! I like it!
Mimi

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
Bwana, you keep using the 1000 bolts to Horse Chute line. That is your own quote, isn't it? I don't see it anywhere else in the literature.

Bwana:
"The really wise part is that it's an explanation and a justification all rolled up into one. Pretty slick! I like it!"

Yeah, you're begging for spin right about now.

WB, the analogy doesn't hold up for one simple reason. Kauk had mastered climbing by the time he'd made those ethical choices. Later to be reversed. Bwana and Mark were as green as Kermit when they left the ground.

From the back cover of the Book of Dik; "Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation?

Bwana has said that his editor wrote this but we think it was straight from the heart and their editor picked up on it. These guys were idiots. Just so there's no doubt, also from Dik: "the author assumes full responsibility for the accuracy of all facts and quotations as cited in this book."
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
"Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation?

They were doing what Harding and Caldwell did on the Dawn Wall? Or Robbins and Peterson on Tis-sa-Ack? Bridwell and Bard on Bushido? Or the many others who've made similar misjudgments? Most of us, in fact. Underestimate how much time, food or equipment is needed, suffer a bit (or a lot), learn from the experience, gain a good campfire story. And it doesn't just happen to the inexperienced.

Probably nearly every first ascent on El Capitan, and many subsequent ascents, took longer than forecast, sometimes significantly longer.

The climb may have been ponderously pachydermically slow, in poor style, and (TBA) using unacceptable techniques. We can argue about that, even when more facts are finally in. But simply underestimating the time a climb will take seems no big deal.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
"Though they have prepared for every contingency, they figure their route will take less than a month. The error of this assumption becomes apparent in the first ten feet of the climb." Sounds like wholesale incompetence to me. Any of you folks have a better explanation?
So this is what it is all about? This is why Steve Grossman and Mimi are so upset?

All because Richard and Mark estimated that they would complete the route in 30 days and instead it took them 40 days!

Got that everyone? If you're putting up a new route and it takes you 25% more time than you first estimated, you the the Steve Grossman and Mimi Seal of Incompetence (TM) permanently affixed to your forehead.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
This thread is worthless without PowerPoints.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
They were doing what Harding and Caldwell did on the Dawn Wall? Or Robbins and Peterson on Tis-sa-Ack? Bridwell and Bard on Bushido? Or the many others who've made similar misjudgments? Most of us, in fact. Underestimate how much time, food or equipment is needed, suffer a bit (or a lot), learn from the experience, gain a good campfire story. And it doesn't just happen to the inexperienced.

The climb may have been ponderously pachydermically slow, in poor style, and (TBA) using unacceptable techniques. We can argue about that, even when more facts are finally in. But simply underestimating the time a climb will take seems no big deal.

I also thought immediately of the Dawn Wall.

But I'm sure that the Steve and Mimi Lynch Mob would have hung Harding and Caldwell from the first available tree on the summit following their ascent, if there hadn't been so much media around.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 21, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
Is Mimi this crazy and irrational in person? Or just on the Internet?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Mimi is a delightful, lively, smart, professional woman, but does have some firm opinions and a liking for argument. Cajun blood, perhaps.

(I'd say she's cute, too, but Steve is much bigger than me.)
Mimi

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
Funny how strong opinion coming out of a woman seems to wrinkle your guy's sticks beyond recognition. You anonymous pukes, like graniteclimber, can take a hike. I did my best while climbing in the Valley and elsewhere. I have every right to expect the same and will say whatever the hell I please. Do you try to suppress sports writers if they say something bad but true about your favorite team? Sheesh!

Scott, drop the Steve angle. You are so arrogant and deluded. Get a grip. While you may be the sage of the new generation, I don't know too many people from back then that don't think you're way behind on this one. After the way you over-reacted to the whole Growing Up climb, you've got a lot of nerve. I hardly think I'll stand down on your prompt. You have slim to no moral authority in any ethical argument since you resorted to just about every tactic imaginable. Right?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
How do you feel about Growing Up, Mimi?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
Pete just got the pun of the day award.
Mimi

climber
Aug 21, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
I'll never grow up.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:00am PT
Funny how strong opinion coming out of a woman seems to wrinkle your guy's sticks beyond recognition.

We'll have to take your word that it's "Mimi" posting under her own anme, not that it changes anything. You two have posted the same "strong opinions" under Grossman's name and gotten the same response.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:03am PT
Why isn't anyone listening to linshan, the Social climber from
putian,fujian?

Who cares about some prehistoric nail up? She's totally hot !


pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:11am PT
bite me wyner
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Kevin- What makes you think that two guys who can't claim a single, consensus-rated 100' lead old school A-3 or harder before leaving the ground are going to put up the hardest route on El Cap? Do you really believe that?

Eight placements in a row over on the Jolly Roger warranted only an A4+ grade and this was done at the same time around the corner. It will be very interesting to see if Ammon and Kait run into the like on WOS or whether the route was ever actually A5 to begin with. Richard will say, of course, (and already has preemptively) that the route was lowered by others. Without that ultimate. elitist A5 grade, no slide show tour.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:51am PT
We'll soon see...

The JR was drilled up by Duane Raleigh and Tom Cosgriff before it even saw a second ascent so I'm not sure what your standard of comparison would be in the hooking arena. Eight placements in a row even you can comprehend...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:55am PT
Mimi is wonderful person.

After reading their posts here on Supertopo, I'll never believe that about Mimi, or Steve Grossman.

Wonderful people just dont' behave the way they do, even on the Internet. Gross and low class. Grossman and Grosswoman too. Truth in advertising.

Not that I'm claiming to be a wonderful person myself.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:10am PT
Everything on-sight to this point Scott. You know that.

I don't really feel like I've missed out on anything so far.

How about you?
WBraun

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Calling any route on El Cap as the hardest is all relative.

One party could do one but not the other.

One guy could aid climb some route and the fail on a free pitch on another route.

What's all the hoopla anyways.

El Cap is just another side show on the worlds stage.

I remember the 80 year old woman who had to walk 5 miles every day to collect firewood in Africa just so she could cook to eat .......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:35am PT




What's all the hoopla anyways.

El Cap is just another side show on the worlds stage.

I remember the 80 year old woman who had to walk 5 miles every day to collect firewood in Africa just so she could cook to eat .......

A timely and very perceptive post by Werner.

Edit: I wonder what that woman would think reading this. Why do you climb the rock? Is there firewood on top and none on the bottom? Why are you trying to go the hardest way?


graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce (Mimi and Steve Grossman) are a side show all by themselves.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:53am PT
It's pretty funny that so much effort has gone into denigrating the route and it's architects, it served it's intended purpose for a while, but for a while now the bad mouthing has just been creating controversy around and hence interest in the climb. As the truth comes out, and if the climb is revealed to be anything but a botch job (it doesn't have the be the hardest thing on El Cap, just not bolted excessively as claimed) the climb and it's team gets probably more interest and acclaim than the FA team ever could have gotten on their own.
Meow Now

Trad climber
Emerald City
Aug 22, 2011 - 02:06am PT
GraniteClimber,

Are you SkipT?

Your posts annoy me as much as his posts and they are very similar in the personal attacks. What is your problem?

Do you think you are a reporter from the Sports Center with an analysis of each play, uh I mean post?

Now go lick Werner's boots and lay off Mimi, not cool.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 02:21am PT
Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce Grossman (Mimi and Steve) like it enough to involve me in their sexual fantasies, so they're getting out of it.

Calling me out for making attacks on Mrs. and Mrs. Weak Sauce is like calling the kettle blacker than the pot. There's no way I could match them. Did you see how they went after Kait's mother!? Weak sauce.

Now lay off SkipT. Not cool!
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 22, 2011 - 07:38am PT
what, i'm getting grilled for the picture of my friend I choose for the cover of my book? geez.

More to the point, correct--I am not neutral. Not since I learned more about the route and the first ascentionists from this forum. As I've maintained since my first post on this matter, I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.

That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

And though sympathy may occur, everywhere has limits on what one can and cannot do, and Yosemite is no exception. Maybe WOS will turn out to be a testpiece, but if it were't for the attitudes encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders. Climber self-policing is like what Winston Churchill said about Democracy--it's the worst form, but better than all the alternatives.

Ammon's made the first step to determine whether or not it will be a testpiece.

Time to wait and see.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 08:32am PT
Top of the morning to you, Deuce.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 22, 2011 - 09:41am PT
"Without that ultimate. elitist A5 grade..".--Steve Grossman


An A5 rating with God attached to it really gets to this guy, almost as if God is encroaching into Steve's realm of rule.

You aid guys are funny...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57am PT
Werner-

When you have a moment, would you be willing to have a look at my posts on the 2061-2080 page - the one addressed to you, and the one addressed to Richard? I would very much like to hear your thoughts and I see the potential for a lot of good coming of it. I tried PMing you but I'm not sure if the email was spam filtered or something.

Thanks!

P.S. Here's the link for convenience: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=2060
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57am PT
All eyes are on Ammon and he and Kait are certainly having their day as they should.

Coz- I don't frig my way up anything. Clear enough for you?

Why haven't you done Growing Up if climbing something is prerequisite to having an opinion, which it certainly is not?

You sure attacked those guys,and for what? Using methods and tactics you have already resorted to yourself? If you preview and preprotect, your position is laughable.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:00am PT
Steve, the excitement builds: what will Ammon and Kait say? Please hurry, too many sleepless nights already.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:06am PT
As I've maintained since my first post on this matter, I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.

This could be said about your routes too, Middendorf. They're certainly not up to the standards of Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce.

but if it were't for the attitudes you encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders.

This makes no sense. Middendorf thinks that WOS is an actual bolt ladder, in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:17am PT
John knows more about wall climbing and Yosemite history that you ever will Gnome Boy. Ask him a straightforward question about any aspect of the climbs that he has done and he wil give you a direct answer, same as me.

Not the case with Richard and Mark.

Take IQ#1 for example. Did you guys finish WOS where you intended to?

Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:18am PT
if it were't for the attitudes you encountered (craping aside), El Cap would be filled with actual bolt ladders. Climber self-policing is like what Winston Churchill said about Democracy--it's the worst form, but better than all the alternatives.

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion about the route, John. But the above statement is just nutty and laughably so.

First, "policing" in any normal sense bears exactly zero relation to what was done to us. If you want to correlate what was done to us with "policing," then you're working from a totalitarian model of society, in which case your Churchill quote is obscene.

Second, it didn't work! And that approach never works.

Third, people have never been standing in line to put bolt ladders up El Cap. Never! And it's not some dogs pissing on trees attitude that keeps them away.

Fourth, what IS effective, and what has always been effective in setting the bar high is for high-bar stories to circulate throughout the climbing community. Positive reinforcement is always most effective, if the "society" you are trying to behavior modify is basically rational. And if not, well, there's not enough "cops" on the planet. See point (2) above.

Fifth, the "policing" to which you refer has always been selectively employed, demonstrating clearly that it has nothing to do with protecting El Cap as much as protecting the dogs that want to piss on "their" trees. People on the "in" have ever done whatever they wanted to El Cap with impunity, and people on the "out" have ever been subjected to special condemnation.

I guess that because you've been on the "in," it's impossible for you to back out of the elitist mentality and see this generation of Valley Christians for what they are.

"Policing?" Gag. Not!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:22am PT
...he wil give you a direct answer, same as me. Not the case with Richard and Mark. Take IQ#1 for example. Did you guys finish WOS where you intended to? Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.

What direct answer have you given to a simple question, SG?

Take IQ#1 for example. Have you EVER "modified" the rock in any way in order to make a placement?

Simple question requiring a yes or no response and.....nothing.

Sooo, I guess what you're saying about John's capacity to give a direct answer to a simple question, being the "same as you" and all, is that he simply won't answer a simple and direct question.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:25am PT
An ego can be a terrible thing to have, don't you think?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:31am PT
The controvery boils down to one thing, that much is evident after all these years, and after the repeat of the climb. This link should be Steve and Mimi's theme song when they return to El Cap and Wings of Steel. Respect engenders respect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zan2BqlAmA&feature=related
WBraun

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:36am PT
Da_Dweeb

What do you want from me?

I can't do anything here.

Let these guys do their thing.

It's not important.

Don't meddle in another mans vice ......
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended.

From all accounts of everyone who has been on it it is very bold and it sounds like they used the bare minimum number of bolts possible. So by saying there are too many bolts you are in essence saying the climb itself should not have been done. And by your words we are talking about the now (i.e. after reading about it on the taco), not your thoughts at the time the climb went in. And it's not just that it doesn't interest you so you wouldn't have done it, but no one should have done it under punishment of the climbing community and they acted appropriately (with exception of the shitting) doing everything they could to drive these guys out of the valley and degrade the climb/climbers. Do you really believe that someone who is into slab hooking shouldn't be able to pursue their passion the same as someone linking disconnected cracks systems? This part of the controversy is very similar to the Wall of Early Morning Light. But Robbins got on the climb, experienced it for himself, and his view evolved. Being able to admit he was wrong makes Robbins not only a great climber, but also a great man.

And for the techniques used there would be no ammunition about enhancements if Richard didn't tell us about them in the first place. He could have easily said nothing about them. But he was honest in their methods and this information is used against them, which is fine except when it is claimed they aren't being honest (that's not directed at you Duece). They knocked some crystals off a small portion of the hook placements. In your book you say worse is done (dimples for hooks) and many head or pin placements change the rock. The ethics of climbing mean leaving the rock in as natural a state as possible so future parties get to experience the same challenge nature presented the FA team. So they could have drilled a rivet (damned if you don't), or do what most every climber who drives a pin or places a head does, try to make the placement work while making the least amount of change to the rock (damned if you do).

The route and techniques might not be up to your standards of style. That's fine, but to say no one should be able to climb in a style not deemed acceptable by you or anyone else is myopic. Yes we don't want bolt ladders up el cap, but this route is clearly not that. It's a slab hooking route. Do you really want to say no one should be allowed to do a slab hooking route?
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Kitten fight!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
So Coz, in the photo above your post, which cat would you be?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Being able to admit he was wrong makes Robbins not only a great climber, but also a great man.

Greatness is treasured because of its rarity. If every pebble was a jewel, jewels wouldn't be special. You can't expect a lump of coal to shine like a diamond.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
That is one of the greatest photos I've ever seen. Thanks for posting that!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 22, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
...what will Ammon and Kait say?...

I'd say the number of days they spent on the route, and the whippers Mom related up-thread, speak for themselves regardless of whatever else Ammon and Kait are graciously willing to share about the tale.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
at this point it does not really matter how many bolts or alterations there are....FACT: SG and Mimi have shown their true colors and they arent pretty.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 22, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
The latest small climbing films have been a let down.

The Diamond was alright but like the History channel.

THE DISCIPLES OF GILL was truly lame. Really, Pat Ament hanging with his daughter and talking about how great he was and a great age to climb. What a sleeper.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 22, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
Richard wrote:
Fourth, what IS effective, and what has always been effective in setting the bar high is for high-bar stories to circulate throughout the climbing community. Positive reinforcement is always most effective, if the "society" you are trying to behavior modify is basically rational. And if not, well, there's not enough "cops" on the planet. See point (2) above.

I like to say this same sort of thing all the time. "Focus on solutions, not the conflict." "Look for the path rather than the obstacles". But I frequently violate the concept. Yesterday my son brought a friend on a little adventure. The friend was wearing prescription glasses. "You are going to lose those glasses." I make retainers for the glasses with some cord. The boys decide not to wear helmets which was not objectionable to me, but.... "You are going to lose those glasses. When you hit the water they will blow right off the top of your head." Apparently I went on about it.

My son looks at me and says, "Always the naysayer, never with the solutions." !!!!! Then he offered a solution. I was man enough to accept the comment and go with the solution offered. It was a good solution, but not quite good enough. A few hours later the glasses were lost to some bottomless pool. "We should have tied the glasses to the lifejacket." my son offered. Learning is a hit and miss, evolutionary process.

Seems to me that Wings of Steel is an odd story right now and only "high bar" and inspiring to the few true believers. It is a story about two faithful and righteous boys who follow their quest despite the horrible persecution of the Yosemite Heathen. They persevere and establish a route so important and so brilliant that the heathen are unable to climb it or even comprehend it. It is a good story for church service and religious revivals. But since many of us here are heathen or friends of the heathen, it does not play so well or inspire us. We see Richard's intelligence and perseverance on full display, but also his many negative qualities, his amazing ability to rankle and annoy and generate controversy out of almost nothing. (Not that he is alone in these qualities) It appears to me that the controversy is entirely about personalities and has little to do with the climb. It is the faithful vs the heathen.

For the climb itself to become a good story and to be judged a good climb, the rock has to become the story. It will be a good climb when people start reporting things like, "When I kept looking at the rock for long enough, I started seeing these subtle and amazing differences in texture. Then we realized we could climb here, but not over there. We were balancing and dancing up these cool little edges and bumps. It is a little like route such and such, but ya gotta try it to see what I mean. We were on pitch x and I was engrossed in the quality of the movements."

When people start enjoying the route for itself, then it will be a good route.





graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
Would WOS have been received differently if it had been put up in the Meadows instead of in the Valley? What if it was put up in the exact same style but went up a steep slab on Fairview?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
It is a story about two faithful and righteous boys who follow their quest despite the horrible persecution of the Yosemite Heathen. They persevere and establish a route so important and so brilliant that the heathen are unable to climb it or even comprehend it. It is a good story for church service and religious revivals.

That IS a good story, Paul. I wonder who wrote that version of it. Wasn't me. The book I wrote has many passages that you seem to be quoting from in your section about the little edges and what it was like to feel them and move on them. And, because I'm a spiritual man, I tied our ascent to spiritual themes.

The story I have written, even here on the taco has never included such themes or phrases as "so important and so brilliant."

And you minimize the "horrible persecution" quite tritely, but, then, you haven't walked a millimeter in our shoes or had, for example, an aimed full bag of shyte explode all over you. Yet, even having walked every step of the way, I wouldn't have characterized it as "horrible." There are many truly horrible things done in the world, and our experiences were far from those things! There's a lot of room between "horrible" and "enjoyable." Somewhere down the scale from "horrible" and far, far up the scale from "enjoyable" is how we felt about the "persecution."

One problem with accounts like yours is that you seem to insist on a hard dichotomy between "trivial" and "horrible," so that when I deny its triviality, you leap straight to "horrible." That's a straw man tactic that's not legitimate.

So, to sum up, I've never told a story that resembles the one you tell, of "horrible persecution," "heathens," or of an "important and brilliant ascent." The story I've always told is much more pedestrian than that:

Two guys persevere in their quest to spiritually introspect in the crucible of hard climbing, despite dogs pissing on trees and an even harder route than they had bargained for. They leave a route behind that they themselves are unable to judge for subsequent appeal or objective quality, knowing only that the route they left does not resemble the route the critics (having never seen it) say is there. They spend decades responding to defamation about themselves and the route, and in the end the most strident claims of their critics are finally shown and widely understood to be without merit.

There. That's the happy ending for me. I don't need the route to be "great" or "brilliant" or "ahead of its time" or any of that tripe that matters so much to our critics regarding their own routes. Seeking that sort of thing wasn't why we did it, and we got from the route what we went up there to get. How the ROUTE is now judged is pretty insignificant to me. I don't much care if others find it appealing to climb. I, personally, simply wasn't playing the game that most other FA teams around here are playing. If the route goes away, and if the whole thing fades into obscurity, that's fine by me. All I've really cared about over the decades is to correct the defamation and debunk the liars, because THEY made this personal. And even as recently as today, the likes of SG continue to make this personal.

Don't imagine for a moment that the last five years of fighting on the taco have been enjoyable for me. But a review of the history of the posts will show that we have only RESPONDED to critics telling lies. Clear our NAMES, personally, of the defamation; and at that point I don't give a rip about how the route is evaluated. I was done with the ROUTE almost 30 years ago.

That's why I have no problem with Deuce's opinion about the route. It's his opinion, and he certainly entitled to have it and share it around. It's the other aspects that always creep in and muddy the waters.

So your references to "important and brilliant" just offer another example of how the "story" twists and turns without resembling the true story. And that is indeed "odd," as you put it.

Oh, final note, I haven't called our critics "Heathen." Ironically, I continue to call them this generation's "Valley Christians." Self-policing indeed! It is to laugh.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
So, Richard, it the cute cat photo above, which cute cat would you be?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
Probably that blurry, lighter-green blotch up and left from the left cat's ear.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
Oh, I posted just as you edited, Mark. Now you're limiting it to cats! Oh, that makes it much harder.

Can I appeal to false dichotomy?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
Okay, I'll make it easy on you.

In the Cute Kitty photo above, which cute kitty represents you and which cute kitty represents Mark?
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Paul Matzen gets it! Best post of the entire thread.

'Struth, if it turns out to be a quality line appreciated by the consensus, then it will reveal the weaknesses of the ethics of the day.

What is apparent to me is the over-personalisation of the general attitude that was/is prevalent in a place like Yosemite. Jim Dunn got bucketloads of grief for attempting a new line without the proper "experience", but he just went and did it anyway. Cosmos has since become a classic. Jardine also got grief for chipping holds on the Nose to force a free route based on his abilities at the time; thankfully that practice has been extinguished for the most part. It's all part of the process.

To me, big walls aren't a place where one tries to "make a mark" in difficulty, it's about finding a natural line and climbing it in good style.

The slab might someday be considered a viable line, and the style recognised as valid. For me, it wasn't. Now loop back to Paul's post, which is what it's really all about.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 22, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
Man, I thought this was over & done with...Shows what I know, huh?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Thanks for helping me out, Jim! Whew!

And to Mark: yeah, what he said.

if it turns out to be a quality line appreciated by the consensus, then it will reveal the weaknesses of the ethics of the day.

Again the conflation between style and ethics.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
IIRC, no one has done a second ascent of the Turning Point. Maybe other El Cap routes - PTPP would know. Not to mention that routes vary considerably in terms of length, quality of rock, nature of climbing, etc. So it would be difficult to objectively say that one route or another is the 'hardest'.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Just like you can't objectively provide a list of the "best books" without having read every book ever written, which is impossible.

Whenever you see someone's "best of" lists you have to consider the source's breadth of knowledge and experience. So a "best books" list from someone that is well-read will carry more weight.

Has anyone climbed more El Cap routes than Ammon? I've speculated that he's probably climbed more El Cap routes than anyone else, living or dead, but I don't know for sure.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Really not that complicated. Ethics are the consensus beliefs. Style is the application of those beliefs.

They're related in this context.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
No one CAN do a second ascent of Turning Point. Steve Grossman never released a topo. So even if you tried to repeat Turning Point, you would probably be putting up a new route that is in similar location but different from it.

Also, Steve claimed that the lower pitches need to be retrofitted prior to any repeat and insists that this be left in his hands. There is no indication that this has happened.



http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1023273/Steve-Grossman-care-to-reflect-for-us-on-Turning-Point

The lower free pitches were established with a belayer and no chalk. These pitches need to be retrofitted BY ME before they are remotely reasonable for a repeat. I should be able in the process to produce an all free start to the Free Blast at 5.12a or so. I have to respectfully ask people to stay off the route if they are not up for the demands of the lower pitches. These pitches are the reason that the route remains unrepeated in its entirety.

I have never released a topo because I have held out some hope that this route and my typical micronutting efforts might survive some repeats if my climbing style is better understood and respected. With so many wall climbers willing to chisel and stuff copperheads into everything they see, my concern is well justified.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
They [Ammon and Kait] say call WOS "the hardest route on El Capitan." Not "a hard route." Not "one of the hardest routes. "THE HARDEST ROUTE."

Just for the record, I have NEVER claimed this. LOL
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 22, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
That definition of style and ethics is different from almost everyone I've ever talked to about it.

In my experience most people think of climbing style and ethics the way Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills describes them.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
Hey Richard,

Well, I have to admit my scenario is a made up story based on my impressions from occasionally reading through this and the other threads. But if you think it is a good story, maybe I will keep using it.

I have never read your book, maybe some excerpts, but of course many of your posts. I usually enjoy reading your posts, though I often disagree with your reasoning or viewpoints.

Two guys persevere in their quest to spiritually introspect in the crucible of hard climbing, despite dogs pissing on trees and an even harder route than they had bargained for. They leave a route behind that they themselves are unable to judge for subsequent appeal or objective quality
This is a story that appeals to me. I can relate to it and find it inspiring. I did this thing and I don't know if it is any good by others standards, but I did it cause I wanted to and it changed me in some ways. These are the things I enjoyed about it and these are the ways I feel it changed me.

The other story, I don't like so much.
knowing only that the route they left does not resemble the route the critics (having never seen it) say is there. They spend decades responding to defamation about themselves and the route, and in the end the most strident claims of their critics are finally shown and widely understood to be without merit.
or any of that tripe that matters so much to our critics regarding their own routes.
I, personally, simply wasn't playing the game that most other FA teams around here are playing. If the route goes away, and if the whole thing fades into obscurity, that's fine by me. All I've really cared about over the decades is to correct the defamation and debunk the liars, because THEY made this personal. And even as recently as today, the likes of SG continue to make this personal.

It is not a very inspiring story to me. I have not walked a millimeter in your shoes, but it seems to me that all of us face challenges and hurtful criticisms in various ways. I have a sister who, when she is mad at me, which is a lot, hurls any hurtful accusation at me that can come to her mind. Many are off the mark, but some are accurate. They all hurt. Should I take the time to logically disprove her every statement? Would that make everything fine?.
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
Thanks for the compliment Deuce. I usually feel like I chime in just as everyone is going to bed. Then my hours of thinking about some subject feel wasted. Probably wasted anyway, but at least the feeling is different.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
No, Paul, you shouldn't bother disproving every misstatement she makes. But let's hold the analogy on point, shall we?

Instead of her SAYING hurtful things in a closed context from which you can easily escape, she publicly says hurtful and untrue things about you in public contexts. She basically incites riot (and I'll support that statement if necessary) and incites gangs of people to surround you in public places, threaten you with violence and property damage, and then follows you everywhere in groups to hurl garbage and shyte down on you. Then she engages in yet more public and untruthful tirades against you, publishing in books and magazines, holding you up for public ridicule. Everywhere you go, groups of people gather around you to threaten you and call you foul names. This goes on for decades and includes defamation in virtually every form of public media, so that there is no escape within the community, as she and her gang of well-connected critics ensure that the public opinion sees ONLY her "take" on you.

Oh, and then, for years and years, every time to try to defend yourself, the herd tells you to "get over it" and that you are "too defensive." And your even trying to call attention to the PRINCIPLE of the thing and the ongoing multi-decade nature of it is recast as over-sensitivity, as though this was a one-time insult that you just don't have the character to "get over" like a normal person would.

Even now that story sounds like whining, which it really cannot sound any other way. But I'm honestly completely unemotional as I write it. There are just some objective facts here about how we were treated. Our story (uninspiring to you or whatever) is fact, and it really doesn't correlate with your analogy at all.

Thanks for saying that you enjoy my contributions, even when you usually don't agree. "Agreement" really isn't my goal in most cases. Something like understanding will go far enough. At times I think that perhaps you're almost there.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
The one about turning the other cheek may apply. Soon enough the facts will hopefully speak for themselves. Or is that just theory?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
Yeah, Mighty, this is where the rubber meets the road with that principle. I'm sure you don't want a theology lesson, so I'll spare you. But when there is a principle of systematic abuse, you go after it.

If it were not the case that as recently as today we were basically told that "boys will be boys," so it's all okay, I'd be a lot more prepared to lay down that particular aspect of the fight. But this "sh|t happens" mentality just doesn't get it.

Besides, strictly speaking, we HAVE been turning the other cheek. We have not responded in kind: no lies, no threats of violence, and no shyting on the critics, among other things. LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
ElCapPirate, if that's not you, you might want to have a word with the people running your film web site.

Richard, I don' think you were being overly defensive before when most people (including myself) were taking the "bolt ladder" claims at face value, but that was years ago. Most people are on your side now. There are vocal people attacking you (most obviously Steve and Mimi) but they're in a minority now.

Also, you're never going to get everyone to fully agree with you. Your route was of a very different style than most of those in the Valley at the time. Hooking up a featureless slab instead of linking features. That doesn't appeal to everyone. Someone can say, I don't care how much damage is done to the rock as long as you're just lining natural features--but I don't like routes just going up slabs. That's just their preference.

Again, I wonder if the reception had been different if the route was on similar slab in the Meadows rather than in the Valley. I think that it would be. The Meadows are full of run-out bolted slab climbs.
Gene

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Anything new posted here in the last few weeks?
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
Gene

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
Thanks, Yo,

Thought so.

g
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 22, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
Anything new posted here in the last few weeks?

madbolter1 posted a snippet about grannysex.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
Heh, well, if you think a civil lawsuit is equivalent to the tactics employed by our opponents, they I guess I've considered "not turning the other cheek" (by some measure). Didn't quite seem like the same thing to me. But to each his own.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 22, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
Crank, I guess now I see where the level needs to be. LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 22, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
Mimi

climber
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
graniteclimber, you ignorant slut:

"Would WOS have been received differently if it had been put up in the Meadows instead of in the Valley? What if it was put up in the exact same style but went up a steep slab on Fairview?"

John Bachar would have walked up to the base and asked them nicely to please leave. The situation would have been different and much more decisive.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
Yeah, John would have been swinging on those guys but quick!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
Lol. That is all. Throughout.
And always.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:25am PT
Man I hope I never have the misfortune of meeting this Mimi in person. Not that she'll care what I think...I've never met her. But I see absolutely nothing redeeming in her posts here online. At the very least, her online persona is sickeningly juvenile, pitifully immature, and filled with the kind of hate and anger I don't want anywhere near my life.

What a wasteful and sad life. Sincerely...it is an utter waste. And utterly pitiful.

And I certainly don't understand her defenders who know her outside of the taco. I expect my friends to hold me accountable for ALL of my actions. I don't get a free pass just because I'm typing instead of speaking. My friends would rightfully disown me ... or at least call me out on it. I'd not count them as my friends if they didn't call me out.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:25am PT
Werner –
Thanks for the reply.

Da_Dweeb

What do you want from me?

I can't do anything here.

Let these guys do their thing.

It's not important.

Don't meddle in another mans vice ......

Well, I can see where you’re coming from on a number of these points.
This has been going for years, it seems like we’re powerless to change the way this dance goes at this point. It seems pointless to even try. But I have heard you express the sentiment on several occasions that you would like it to go differently. That after 30 years there could be some resolution or detachment. Correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but based on previous posts you’ve made, that’s generally the impression that I have gotten. If that’s the case, you’re not alone, and I’m thinking some change in the way things go is in order here. I also am not yet prepared to despair of that possibility.

I can't do anything here.
As I said in the previous paragraph, I can understand the sentiment. However, I think that you have more potential to be effective here than you give yourself credit for. As I said, you are a well respected individual and your opinion carries a lot of weight. I believe that puts you in a position where you have more capacity to do good here than you may realize.

Certainly during this current salvo, nothing useful can be accomplished – they’re going to have to finish unloading, and when they have, there’s a possibility of helping things to go differently at that point.

Let these guys do their thing.

It's not important.

Don't meddle in another mans vice ......

Well, I can see how all of this isn't very important. It’s just a rock climb. It’s just a territorial fight. What happened happened, and if people can’t move on from it, then maybe the best thing to do is let them fight it out without pointless interference. However, if we take this into the realm of personal meaning, I can see differently – it _is_ important. Very important. To them. To all of the major players. If it weren’t important, all of this would have died down a very long time ago. From an existential point of view, everything has as much value as we as individuals assign to it. Stay with me, I’m going somewhere with this.

I believe I’ve heard you say similar to this, but correct me if I’m wrong. Given its intensely personal nature, this fight has conjured a staggering volume of bile and venom, and look at what’s happening to some of the participants – that venom, that bile is etching their reputations, their rock climbing careers, even their spirits and souls. And, while I will understand if you feel differently, that is important to _me_. I am hoping to a certain extent it’s important to you as well, and I believe based on prior posts by you that to at least some extent it is.

I’m not saying it’s our responsibility, our obligation, or our duty to change things here, but I will say that the opportunity for us to attempt to improve this situation presents itself. And the choices we make ultimately define who we are, in the personal and the spiritual realm. I don't know about you, but for me personally, I’d like to be the person who strives toward that opportunity. Again, I’m hoping to at least some extent the same is true of you.

What do you want from me?

Well, as I see it, this whole plan depends on some level of cooperation between you and me. Any plan I put forth by myself will be shot down – and for good reason. It’s well known and established that I firmly support Mark and Richard. I don’t think there’s any excuse at all for what has been done to them, and I don’t see any possibility at all that I’ll change my mind on that. So I need the help of someone who DOESN’T have that point of view. Someone who doesn’t necessarily agree with that assertion, and who can approach the other camp without immediately being taken for an enemy. So how about this – just listen to what I have in mind. Send me a PM and I’ll respond to it with my idea. Give me your feedback in private, and we can either go from there or abandon the idea, if it seems it just won’t work.

Hope I’m not being too pushy here, I just feel that the timer is ticking. If this doesn’t get resolved BEFORE that SA report gets put up, I really don’t see any possibility of real closure being reached. And I see that as damaging the possibility for complete healing for all parties concerned.

Please, let me know your thoughts, and send me a PM if you want to at least hear me out.
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:30am PT
Bwana:
"Again the conflation between style and ethics."

You sir, sucked at both. And gleefully though you saw it as suffering.

Bwana:
"Yeah, Mighty, this is where the rubber meets the road with that principle. I'm sure you don't want a theology lesson, so I'll spare you. But when there is a principle of systematic abuse, you go after it.

Blather deleted.

Besides, strictly speaking, we HAVE been turning the other cheek. We have not responded in kind: no lies, no threats of violence, and no shyting on the critics, among other things. LOL"


Not quite, Rubberhead (or was that the other guy), you cracked your lilly white asses at one of the grandest granite monuments in the world. GFYS!

As with all of your previous lawsuits, bring it on. I should join the church and sue you for decades-old fraud. How much did you profit from this charade? Paid with church funds for your slideshows.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:37am PT
So Mimi, in the cute cat photo, which cute cat would you be?
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:43am PT
Hudon, you tell me. You're the one who's hauling a stuffed gorilla pal along on your solos. Did Pete say that was one of the essentials to succeed as robustly as he has? Just asking. And crying for more bolts at the bottom of the East Ledges!!!!11111
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:46am PT
That's pretty funny, comin' from a cartoon. Why, I oughta........;-)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:47am PT
Which cat am I? I think the leaping cat looks more heroic and I'd like to be that one, you know, on the attack, aggressive, but the other cat appeals to me also, rooting for the underdog, almost being forced off his perch. If I had to choose though, I'd be Heroic Cat.

And yeah, a pillow simply for comfort and more bolts although Hollyclimber lined me out on that deal.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:56am PT
FACT: DADWEEB WERNER PEES ON YOU FROM A GRATE HITE.... LOL!!!

Hi, Weld_It!

Thanks, at long last I have a fact attributed to me! It feels like I've finally reached a rite of passage in this thread!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:57am PT
WhatinHell? Cartoons aren't allowed meltdowns, as far as I've heard.
Or thought. Or they're required.





Carry on.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:57am PT
22k dab
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:57am PT
Yes, she did, Marky. I was really proud of her giving you the what for on that one.

There is no doubt that this saga attracts the 'support the underdog' mindset. For those not in the know or having done enough reading with comprehension or having enough climbing experience on a wall to 'relate' to the facts, those people get sucked right in. I think it goes back to good old-fashioned idealism. And also supporting perceived antiestablishment views; the evil locals vs the newcomers. These guys weren't idiot savants, they were idiots, and the locals at the time recognized this. If I seem mean, too bad.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:59am PT
John Middendorf writes:

"I don't believe the route was put up in good style, both from the number of bolts that were used, and the techniques willfully intended."

John - there are more bolts/rivets per foot of rock climbed on Flight of the Albatross than there are on Wings of Steel.

"To me, big walls aren't a place where one tries to "make a mark" in difficulty, it's about finding a natural line and climbing it in good style."

Bollocks! How can you call the bolt ladders up to the Canoe a natural line?


Steve Grossman writes:

"Eight placements in a row over on the Jolly Roger warranted only an A4+ grade.[sic] I'm not sure what your standard of comparison would be in the hooking arena. Eight placements in a row even you can comprehend..."

[He means rating, not grade. Jolly Roger is a Grade VI]

Wow, Steve - you must be light if you think eight hooks in a row makes an A4+ rating. Over on the right side, I've climbed any number of routes with eight or even ten hook moves in a row, and some of those pitches are only rated A4.


Scott Cosgrove writes:

"SG, Wos is harder than Jolly Roger ask Ammon, and get over yourself!"

Well, I could climb Jolly Roger [barely, it was hard] but I couldn't climb WoS - it is *really* hard. Jolly Roger remains one of my all-time favourite El Cap routes.


JM - I'm just yanking your chain. I really liked Albatross. However I stand by my argument.

Cheers,
Pete
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:05am PT
Apparently those who solo hard routes on El Cap like teddies. So?

So did the original Teddy, Roosevelt.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:05am PT
Why would you buy angst, supposin'?
That stuff's free.

Unlike Rum. Arrrrrggh.

Matey.
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:18am PT
Pete, do you really want to stumble down this road and criticize JM and SG? Are you nuts? You are a self-indulgent slob up there. Everyone with half a brain knows this. Please get over your self. Sheeesh!!!!!!!111 You're like a drowning man. Clinging to this story is your 15 minutes. Really sad but I guess you'll be taking one for the team. Or perhaps several by the time it's all done. LOL!

Edit: No, stinkeye, you are a moron and continue to dodge the thrust of the arguments. If you had a brain, you'd have read many posts promoting clean aid. This topic comes up more often as of late. More homework.

Anders: I'm so glad you don't have a pic of Pete's crab. LOL!
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Not likely Dweebus.

Some of you take things so seriously. Don't you see the humor and entertainment potential here? We sure do.

Aw Dweeb, you deleted your post. Back deleting will lead to much worse things. Didn't you see what it did to AC? He got banned for it.

You've been hit by every pie in this fight. Hang tuff, kid, or are the drycleaning bills getting to you? Savor the cream. mmkay!!
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:38am PT
Too many pies, not enough ducking. Just remember to duck.
TRY! Seriously.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Whether or not Pete has crabs, I don't have a photo of them. And if I did, I wouldn't admit it let alone post it here, let alone post it with photos of snuggly fuzzy morale-building teddies.

To quote Gollum: "Doesn't know. Doesn't want to know."
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:44am PT
Mark's teddy kinda scares me! Looks like it has a shitty ass grin on it's face. Haha
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:49am PT
Maybe we could get happiegirrrl to design a line of big wall teddies, and market them at the mountain shop. It shouldn't be hard to sell the magazines on the idea that a teddie is the latest hardman necessity, except for those with a hardwoman to cuddle with.

Big wall teddies will be a big hit at OR next year. You'll see.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:57am PT
The trade routes have been hammered beyond belief and you are worried about some hooks being drilled on a first ascent of a slab? Is your meaningless life really that meaningless?

Please take your logical perception somewhere else. It won't hold water here.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 02:10am PT
Mimi-

I forgive you for what you're saying.

Also, do you mean the post on this page? If so, it just got bumped back by the 20 or so posts since.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=2180
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 02:32am PT
OK, here's a photo of Pete's crab, just for Mimi.
Pete on Kaos. They're at the bottom of the long right-facing shaded corner, on the left side of the big black area. More or less centre, about 1/3 of the way up the photo. The sheer mass of Pete's junk show can be judged by the fact that it's visible in this photo, taken with my not so great camera from the bridge. And that's as close as I need to get to his 'crab'.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:07am PT
John - there are more bolts/rivets per foot of rock climbed on Flight of the Albatross than there are on Wings of Steel.

Bad math, Pete. You and I have been specifically over this, the last time you spewed this misinformation; I'm surprised to see you doing it again since you've become such a defender of the "truth".

Albatross--> 72 holes for 11 new pitches.

Show me your math.


Frankly, the hole count on Albatross was excessive for my liking, as I've said before. But it was established in an era (the 90's) when 100+ bolt new routes were becoming the norm, a figure I've always considered too many for a El Cap route. I picked the Albatross line for my friend Will, whose lifelong dream was to do a new route and fly.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:46am PT
Stinkeye-

I wanted to take this opportunity to apologize on behalf of Mark Smith. He will be unable to read let alone respond to your post about him being a f*#king whiny tosser whose meaningless life is meaningless due to the whole start of the school year thing which is apparently taking about 16 hours out of his day for a while to come.

Just... Just wanted to give you an explanation.

In case you didn't hear anything from him about it.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:09am PT
So Mimi doesn't want to identify with one of the cute kitties. Who's next?
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:25am PT
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:49am PT
What I've learned from this thread........... NEVER bring a cat to a dogfight
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:54am PT
This is Mimi.

They cut into her head to let the evil spirits out. It didn't work.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:14am PT
Mimi, for quite some time I've made a point of not responding directly to you. Your level of rabid insanity is honestly so shocking to me that I'm repelled. But your latest bout of posts brings to a head a question I've had about you for years.

You say to Pete, "I guess you'll be taking one for the team. Or perhaps several by the time it's all done." And for years you have spoken with such CERTAINTY about WoS, yet you claim/admit that you've never even been NEAR the route. HOW can you have such certainty?

What do you KNOW that apparently the FA team does not know about what exists on the route? And how have you come to be so CERTAIN about it?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:40am PT
I didn't have a dog in this fight until that last page.

Now I'm LMAO to see the shoe on the other foot. It seems somebody is a hell of a lot more forthcoming about his own routes than he is about his claims of imaginary bolt ladders on somebody else's.

Still, it pales to the hypocrisy of foaming at the mouth over the creation of a route that can be climbed hammerless while continuing to create pin scars as a byproduct on other wall climbs. Rock alteration is rock alteration. If you know it is going to happen and you do it then it is deliberate rock alteration, byproduct or not.

This whole WoS uproar speaks volumes about what a bunch of whack jobs we climbers are, furiously arguing over the arrangement of deck chairs while we pointedly ignore the iceberg dead ahead.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:43am PT
Okay, this ought to be good, Ron, which cat?
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:48am PT
Madbolter - Mimi lives in her own separate, twisted reality where her beliefs have become fact, not supposition.

She and a couple of her imaginary friends obviously did the SA of the route, saw the evidence and know these things to be true.

Trying to reason with her is pointless.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:58am PT
Mark, Somehow, this is how I envision that Mimi would look if she were a cat.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Be nice, my cat thing is all in fun.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
i bet she can $hit on command too!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
well, at least i think we can agree on one thing.....pity poor steve if he ever pisses mimi off!
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Maybe that's all they got? I kinda feel sorry for them.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Strong opinions and outsized egos are not necessarily related. I have met very few climbers who have not had intact and functioning egos.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Strong opinions and deep insecurities, however, are often related.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
True, and everyone on this thread has exhibited strong opinions.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Well, I politely disagree with you, Jim. Apart from a few angry and insecure individuals, most everyone has been pretty measured and rational in their responses.
Fascinating stuff though! I think someone could write a PhD thesis in psychology just based on this thread.

Now, back to the show..
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
deuce has responded to ptpp about number of bolts/holes/drills per pitch....just curious, was there a "magic" number? what was it?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Ego is great, good and necessary but maintaining your personal integrity and allowing who you're arguing with to maintain their personal integrity is important.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 23, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
An early mentor of mine told me that without egos, not many hard climbs would get done.

That has stuck with me for a long time.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
El Cap thinking....... Oh the silly Humans..... with their pitons,bolts,chisels.....scaling,conquering....so relevant , so important...... just wait till I drop Boot Flake on their asses..........heh heh heh
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
Twisted,

I wouldn't agree completely, can't the love and simple joy of doing it motivate someone?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
unfortunately no, Hudon. there are those who do to their own insecurities have to denigrate others so that those whom are insecure can feel better....and yes that is pathetic.

on the other hand, there are those whose sense of "right" and "wrong" may be at stake and i presuppsoe that is the case with SG and mimi. its just that there sense of "right" and "wrong" is not only based upon very little information but their way of going about it is truely pathetic...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 23, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Maybe Steve G has secretly found, and is hoarding, the "One Divine Hammer" !!!!1111




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUiP5eyx3NM&ob=av2n





...as apparently his hammer strikes (or NON-strikes) like no others' CAN
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
i get it DMT,

kind of like writing a letter to the editor of a climbing mag complaining about power drills on El Cap, right?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
"the hardest route on El Capitan." Not "a hard route." Not "one of the hardest routes. "THE HARDEST ROUTE."

I see that the wording the web site was quietly changed. It now says, "It is also one of the hardest routes on El Capitan."
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
DMT: There are probably 6 people in the whole world that truly give a sh#t about Wings of Steel..

Here we go again. So to speak.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
Heh... and I'm not one of them. My integrity is the only thing in this that matters to me. Don't call me a liar and expect me to back down.

So, who are the other four?
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
What props will they use for the movie? The docudrama reenactment part.

I know there was a can of chili in the mix.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 23, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
Like arguing over Maestri's compressor; meaningless.

At Climb Smart in Josh a few years ago, I saw a cool slideshow by a famous climber. He had a great slide of the compressor taken from above, with a view through the compressor showing the situation.

There was something really good about that, to see that thing, still hanging there after all these years. A testament to man and his works.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 23, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
oh sh#t, now gc is gonna go all victim on this thread. sSomeone must be blamed?!?!?!

I don't know what you are talking about. I'd quoted the film web site. After I quoted it, they decided it was appropriate to change it, and so I noted that. There's no victims and no blame. They clarified their language and I noted that. They should be congratulated for responding so quickly and clarifying.

I'm a bit disappointed that they backed of "the hardest" to "one of the hardest" but "one of the hardest is good enough for me. It's obviously not a bolt ladder.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 23, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
kind of like writing a letter to the editor of a climbing mag complaining about power drills on El Cap, right?

Or going apeshit on Supertopo about dead coyotes on fences.

Who wrote the letter to the editor of climbing mag?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
GC, you're right. I had the Kickstarter URL open in another tab for the last week or so. Refreshed it just now and watched the verbage change as you had noted.

Not that I'm critiquing the action mind you, just validating and authenticating what you said.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
I don't know any of the players in this saga. never hear of mimi or SG before this thread, never been to cali . I have been climbing for 29 years though and one thing that I have found to be the gods honest truth is that you can not judge the real dificulty of a climb on rappell. It may look like it will go but when you unweight that rope and start trying to actually climb that piece of rock that you thought was going to be so easy, it can be a whole different ball game. I am of the firm opinion that no one has the right to diss a climb that they have not actually climbed. I will go one farther and say that you should lead that climb and not just follow it to have the right to critisize it unless your leader has the same opinion.

how peeved do you get when you lead the hardest bravest pitch of the day and your weasily assed 2nd who has not lead anything all day says " that wasen't nearly as scary as the guidebook indicated.. Felt pretty casual to me"


Seriously guys. It sounds like you did something pretty evil BINTD by haressing and bullying these guys and now almost 30 years later you seem to be desperatly holding on to the belief that you were right back then so that you will not haVE TO DEAl with the reality of what went down. You come off as shrill, desperate and deranged. The name calling and rants add a junior high flavor to the image that you guys project.

Strange stuff to be comming off the keybords of middle age adults........
Fish Boy

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Will Mark and Richard be interviewed in the film?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
Tradmanclimbs--sadly, the major players involved in the griping/bullying/shiting are OVER middle-aged...


...a 30 year-old acting like either Mr.or Mrs. Mimi could almost be excused.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
DMT: There are probably 6 people in the whole world that truly give a sh#t about Wings of Steel..

Here we go again. So to speak.
"go" as in #2. Following on from your pun.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
Tradmanclimbs, you hit the nail on the head. It seems like the more threatened their position becomes, the more this duo clings to it out of denial and self-preservation.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
"Mr. or Mrs. Mimi" ?! Laughing out loud at that one, and trying to figure out which one is the "Mrs."!

Actually, I think I have it sussed: Mrs. Mimi is the one who thinks eight hooks in a row is A4+, when everyone clearly knows and agrees that ten hooks in a row is only A4. Talk about light.

My sincere and heartfelt apology to John Middendorf for dissing his route which only contained 72 holes at the time of the FA, and for my galling arithmetic error. I enjoyed climbing it, and there are at least three additional holes on the Whipper Will pitch, and one or two more on Walk The Plank pitch, which is now harder than it was on the FA.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
I think someone old DMT who the shitters were. He was really insistant on knowing who they were for a while....

Just a guess.

Prod.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 23, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
How many of the shitters are still alive?
Is there a curse?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 23, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
That would be the best part of the film. Following the shitters around, wondering if the curse was going to take them out.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Aug 23, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
I know one of them sure seems to be cursed. I just can't think of any other reason that he looks and acts like he does.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 23, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Will Mark and Richard be interviewed in the film?


Now THAT is a dang good question!

Dear film guy. You'll not be telling a very complete story without them now will you?

Pete, 8 hook moves in a row is A4+ in my book, and I'm the only one I have to answer to. Jeez.

Once upon a time in my neighborhood a single "body weight only" placement was considered A4. Since when did 10 hook moves in a row become the world wide standard?

Just curious.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 23, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
I always thought the A4 and A5 rating required a sufficient number of pieces to zipper and a bad landing so that you'd either break bones or die if you pealed. 1/2 dozen bodyweight placements above a bomber piece and a clean fall would be at most A3.

I've zippered 3 or 4 pieces and grounded, but it was a soft landing so no way it was more than A2 due to the severity of fall. It did give me an appreciation for not being timid when driving pins, and to be robust when testing a placement. Now making those same moves 100 feet above a hatchet shaped blade of granite would be a totally different game.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Not to detract from the drama of WOS, but here is an old explanation of aid ratings from rec.climbing way back in 1995:

New Wave Aid Ratings

Brent Ware <ware@ligo.xxxxxxxxxx>
writes on Mon Aug 4 16:59:24 PDT 1997 :

From: info@fishproducts.com
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: was: Aid Harness Setup, Now: Aid Ratings
Date: 30 Nov 1995 03:40:51 -0500

Here's how I understand it......present day ratings for routes done in the last 10 years.

A0 - Full on bomber and easy to find. Fall potential no more than 20-30 feet. Ex: Nose, Salathe, Leaning Tower, South Face of the
Column. etc.

A1 - Easy to find and easy to place. A basic no brainer, but if you do many dumb things in a row, you will go up to 40 feet. Ex:
Lurking Fear (A1+), Prow, Muir (A1+)

A2 - Here is where it starts. Placements could be hard to find and or awkward to place. Fall potential of up to 60 feet or more. Ex:
Shield, Mescalito (A2+), Aquarian, Tangerine Trip, Horse Chute (A2+)

A3 - Big whippers hiding out here. Many tricks are used and everything is suspect. Rock is usually loose and bad landings may
appear. Fall potential of up to 100 feet, and possible dismemberment, but not death due to hitting things. Ex: NA Wall (A3-) Iron
Hawk (A3+), P.O. Wall, Zenyatta (A3+)

A4 - Bombs away. All known tricks are used including exhaling to make yourself lighter. This is where lids pop off and sane humans
never venture. Fall potential: 150-200 feet with a bad landing almost assured. Wear a helmet for the open casket hoe-down. Ex:
Native Son. GulfStream (A4+), Born Under a Bad Sign, Surgeon General, South Seas (A4-), Space.

A5 - Lights out. Count on multi-hour leads with about 6-10 being the norm. Nobody falls here because you only get one. No rookies
allowed. Every piece is shitty, all the rock is bad, and you always hit things. Fall potential: Pull the pitch. Ex: Scorched Earth?,
Sheep Ranch (A5-), Get Whacked, Plastic Surgery Disaster.

Of course all of the above are subjective blah blah...... Most of the examples are either confirmed by someone here at FP or by the FA
party. This is real and scary. Enjoy!
TTFN, Russ


2011 addendum: Man the new gear sure has cut pitch time and difficulty down. Failiens, Beaks, Tomahawks, drilled placements etc have cut the hard lead times in half!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
by that rating system ZM would be A2 as of June of this year.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
by that rating system ZM would be A2 as of June of this year.

Maybe it is?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Falls are a frequent reminder of a free climbs rating. In aid climbing, falls, the gut of the aid rating system, are much rarer, especially in the upper grades. Lots of A5 pitches, not many broken bodies-what gives?
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
JIm, aid climbing is much less forgiving than free climbing, especially at the higher grades of each. Ergo, aid climbers toying with the higher numbers are better at the craft than a comparable free climber. Hard aid guys just don't fall, mostly due to the dire consequences of rippage.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
It is a rather compressed system, in that 90% or more of aid routes would fall in the A0 or A1 rating.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
I understand the consequences of an aid fall, its one of the reasons our route on Torre Egger has not see a second attempt, but the defintion of hard aid is based on fall potential. If there is no empirical evidence vis a vis falls, how are A4 and A 5 differentiated?
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
Mighty, that is because most aid routes are piss easy. It is the logistics that are the n00b killer, not the actual aid per-say. Toss in a full helping of weak minds, and it's over boys, we're going down.

To edit for Jim:
If there is no empirical evidence vis a vis falls, how are A4 and A 5 differentiated?

You can tell what will hold and extrapolate out the potential fall. You know when you are going to go big if you pull a piece, and you also know if you are going to go dead. That is the difference.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
A6 Your partner goes with you.

A7 You take out a nest of peregrines or another party on the way down.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
I'll defer to Ron when it comes to aid.

Is that why we have to suffer thru bird closures every year?
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
Probably time for the Aid Rant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
I make ONE troll about aid ratings, and you guys go to town on it. Sheesh.

If you ever figure it out, please let me know.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
If you ever figure it out, please let me know.

See above.
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
I love Russ walling.

Always tells it like it really is.

Aid climbing is so fuking simple "Just stick em in and stand up"

That's all ya really need to know .....
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
kinda cool how the tone of this thread has mellowed a bit ( don't hold your breath it 's sure to flare up again) my question for the gurus is: what is the fall ptiential in free climbing that takes you from PG rated to R rated? Also are bad landings factored in?
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 23, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
R rating puts you in the hospital, X rating puts you in the morgue.

To question the higher aid ratings is the same as questioning runout free ratings. People mostly don't fall and get injured on those routes, but it doesn't mean they aren't heads up adventures with dire consequences of a screwup.
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
Ron:
"This whole WoS uproar speaks volumes about what a bunch of whack jobs we climbers are, furiously arguing over the arrangement of deck chairs while we pointedly ignore the iceberg dead ahead."

Not entirely true. Several people have pointed out crack destruction. It turns into the same old crapfest. It always comes down to people not caring about anything but their own fun.

Bwana: let's avoid the psychobabble. You ask about taking one for the team? Haven't you ever competed in sports having multiple players? He's clearly on your team. He LOVES you guys. I haven't a clue about anything else except what we've purported from the start. We ask nicely and you avoid. It's not our fault that you have severe credibility problems.

hahaha! edit: stinkeye and coz, you are such jackasses! Your beyond silly chiding is hilarious. I see way better stuff on NCAA sports forums. Your opinion is your business, but you could at least make an accurate statement about me. coz, I really can't believe what a worm you've turned into. But I keep getting reminded you were this way back then too. So much for giving you benefit of the doubt.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
That's certainly a big factor Silver, but I have had people tell me the A4 pitch just above the Col of Conquest was a consideration.
Mimi

climber
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
Jim, please tell us about that pitch. We need nourishment.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
Perhaps two aid climb rating systems are needed. One more or less the classic A0 - A5, for mortal climbers. That is, from bolt ladder (A0) to 10+ m of sustained bodyweight (A4) placements, equating to a 20+ m likely fall (A5). Then the specialized one posted by Russ, for the elite and crazy. You'd simply have to be clear which version of e.g. A3 you were referring to.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
It's all A1 till you fall.

A wise sage pontificated something like that once.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
Another good one is: "You make A5 A1 and you make A1 A5". I think that means be way safe on the hard stuff and get your ass moving on the easy stuff. Who said that anyway....? First time I ever heard it I think Lechlinski said it.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:01am PT
Yeah

Guys who never go aid climbing need ratings and then might even need more than two ratings to spin in their heads while sitting on the couch.

All the ratings go out the door the minute you're on the lead.

Ratings are just heads up to what you might expect.

I've seen A1 pitches in topos and thought cool no problem then when I got there I sh'it in pants ......
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:05am PT
Twisted, glad you're around again. I love the cat pic. Purrrrfect!

Still catching up on this thread. Russ, your rating descriptions are slightly oversimplified. WB is spot on, climb it feel it. We don't need no stinkin' ratings. LOL!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:24am PT
let's avoid the psychobabble. You ask about taking one for the team?

Are we on the same planet???

What I asked you was how you have always seem to have such CERTAINTY about what the SA will find on the route. What do YOU know that the FA team doesn't know about the route?

THAT'S what I asked.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:24am PT
[quote]Probably time for the Aid Rant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs[/quote]

"All the routes on El Cap are drilled hooks."
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:33am PT
paul m wrote:

When people start enjoying the route for itself, then it will be a good route



i'd agree with that much
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Werner-

When you get the chance, I responded to your post. It's been buried a number of pages back. Link provided for convenience:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=2180
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:50am PT
Ohhhhh, that's what you meant. Knowledge of the FA is what I was referring to. I'm patiently waiting to read about the official SA as much as anyone. It will be way better than the various SA attempt hearsay. And certainly your BS.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:16am PT
I'm patiently waiting to read about the official SA as much as anyone.

Yeah? Well you've talked for years like you were part of some SA team already and already know. What's up with that?
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:19am PT
You're kidding, right?
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:20am PT
Just let it die. Please?
It will if you let it. C'mon.
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:24am PT
RURPS:
"MImerZ

You aRE a cuntbag, now pull your DICK out of StevZ Ass and STFU!

YOu ttwo are f*#kinggoing to hELL.

Worthless LIke a box of dickZ in Mr. GrossMAMS HANDS.

Remember, THE climING coMMUNITY is VERY SMALL!

Steve, quiet your bitch for us will you?

rurps"

You sound like someone I used to know. If you have any self respect, you'll provide your real name. We'll see if you're wearing your big boy pants tonight. Either way, you're history.


Email edit: This is awesome! I've never been attacked like this via email by an STer. I'm sure it won't be the last time. LOL! Should this guy get banned?

From our very own Mr. Ron Anderson. Is this the poster Ron Anderson? Gosh, Ron, I had no idea.

First message:
Mimi,

Go f*#k yourself, infantile c#&%.
Sent by: Raron

The second message:
Greetings from a Fellow SuperTopo Member!

This message has been sent from a fellow registered SuperTopo climbing member to you.

When did you ever climb A4, you skanky f*#king bitch?
Sent by: Raron
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:35am PT
Oh, yeah. That's right. Sorry. I was kidding.

Wowwwwwwww
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Isn't that wild, Bwana? Some of your pals are real zealots aren't they? They've joined your jihad.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:47am PT
Nothing close to the jihad you were party to, and a thoroughly stinky leader of, for nigh unto 3 decades. You ain't no Spartacus.

Difference here is that I have no jihad and have nothing to do with party-line zealots. You've managed to attract this sort of attention to yourself all by yourself. And this attention isn't based on lies.
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:51am PT
"And this attention isn't based on lies." Well said, Bwana.

coz, why'd you delete what you said? It was classic! You have to edit that back. What are you trying to prove? Calling Steve a liar? Over-rated? I've done a enough walls and lived the life all while you were staring in the mirror fluffing yourself in the lot.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:52am PT
I picked the Albatross line for my friend Will, whose lifelong dream was to do a new route and fly.


That is awesome and beyond comprehension to most who are reading this… you must fly in one shoes to understand why they must soar.

AND… Long live Xavier Bongard, this photo inspired me more than any other:


Thanks Duece!
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 24, 2011 - 02:00am PT
coz- she has you there bro- editing out that shite kinda paints you into the pussy corner, you said it, man up already, don't be such a wuss about it and delete it like that!

ammon- that does indeed look like a pirate in a sky hammock, no?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 24, 2011 - 02:28am PT
Yes, great photo. Best part of the book. There's nothing wrong with Sea of Dreams. Nothing wrong with WOS either. But hypocrisy stinks.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 24, 2011 - 03:46am PT
This thread is so awesome I might choke on my popcorn!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 06:25am PT
Captain (or Skully)-

Just let it die. Please?
It will if you let it. C'mon.

Cap’n, it’s unlikely to die, and I theorize that there’s a few reasons why.

Given the general historical consensus that silence on the part of the WoS team regarding their own climb was an indicator of their guilt/villainy and a confirmation of the rightness of the slander campaign against them, the general point of view on the part of the WoS party is that BS needs to be called out when it is presented. Statements or arguments against WoS – the climb or climbers – must be refuted, as failure to do so has historically been taken as a sign of failure to be able to defend themselves against the charges brought against them. We’re seeing that in action right now, as Richard is calling out the bullcrap and naming it as such.

As that happens we’re seeing the other side justifying itself more and more vigorously. Entrenchment is becoming more and more intense. Minutiae are being called out, as are issues only tangentially related to the climb. For what reason? Well, I can only speculate, but I believe it’s so that they do not have to lose face. “We did it for all the right reasons. And you can see that we had good reason to do so if you recognize what we’ve been saying, which is that these guys were incompetent fools.” What can I say? They had their reasons. It’s their methods I find detestable. But anyway, the smaller the iceberg that they stand on gets, the more desperately they cling to it, and the more BS they put out to try and stay afloat, which Richard then moves to address.

So, that’s the cycle, at least as I’m seeing it. In the middle of it all is a lot of personal meaning, and even dare-I-say pain for all parties involved that has gone back for decades and continues into the present. That’s not something that one can just let go of because someone else suggests it. “By gosh, you’re right! I should just let it go! Ha ha ha – what did I ever care about this silly stuff for?” In fact, often suggestions to just let go will paradoxically just make the problem worse – I recognize you have a good intent of heart, so I don’t mean to come off as attacking you (I’m mostly mentioning this because of how commonly I see that suggestion) but it’s an invalidation of how important this stuff is to all parties concerned. And that leads to more to work through.

What’s the solution? Well, I don’t know. But it’s probably not going to be an easy one. And it almost certainly won’t come about through the current pattern. Fact is, I think the SA report will lead to further entrenchment, rather than ultimate resolution.

If you have some thoughts about this, I'm interested in hearing them.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 24, 2011 - 06:40am PT
An astute synopsis. I agree that those opposed to seeing the fa party with any sort of respect are so entrenched at this point as to render Ammon and Kait's first-hand assessment, even if it was all accolades and tales of futuristic difficulty, meaningless. You could have Jesus bring Charlie Porter back from the other side, have Gerberding or the Silverback partner up with him, and even if they got back to the bridge with the news that it was another order of magnitude radder than anything else, even then, they wouldn't get any respect nor would this whole thing be put to bed. And both sides are culpable for that.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:32am PT
Greetings, Wild One!

Thank you for the response. I’m surprised to see anyone else on at this time of morning.

An astute synopsis. I agree that those opposed to seeing the fa party with any sort of respect are so entrenched at this point as to render Ammon and Kait's first-hand assessment, even if it was all accolades and tales of futuristic difficulty, meaningless. You could have Jesus bring Charlie Porter back from the other side, have Gerberding or the Silverback partner up with him, anid even if they got back to the bridge with the news that it was another order of magnitude radder than anything else, even then, they wouldn't get any respect nor would this whole thing be put to bed. And both sides are culpable for that.

That got a laugh from me. Thanks man. It sounds like we are generally in agreement. Perhaps I’d vary slightly on one point - I would say that rather than both sides being culpable, rather both parties contribute to the ongoing pattern. I say that because culpability is a word that to me implies blame or wrongdoing. I think that what we’re seeing is actually a healthy human phenomenon – people fight for what they’re passionate about. To a certain extent, I think that’s healthy. What’s problematic about what we’re currently seeing is the extreme to which it’s being taken. But it is certainly true that both sides contribute to the ongoing pattern.

And, I mean what can I say? I think what Richard’s doing is reasonable. He’s being attacked, he’s calling out those attacks and explaining why they have no merit. Given that’s an opportunity he and the WOS team haven’t had historically, I support and am glad for the fact that he’s taking full advantage of the opportunity to do so – if he hadn’t the general consensus about the climb and subsequent events would be the same as what we see on page one of this thread.

But like I think we both agree, this pattern will keep going until the end of time unless or until both sides try to do something different. Maybe that’s not such a bad thing as I’m currently presuming it to be (and as I think about it, it ultimately should be the WOS team’s choice as to how they want this to play out, given they’re the ones who got burned), but personally I’d like to see a resolution where everyone can walk away without resentment and with reputation intact.

Also, I’d like to see a chimpanzee jet pilot.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:59am PT
Dude, one or both of those guys may be your friends so maybe you can't see it the way we all do. I support the fa side insofar as I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt, and the time-honored climbing tradition of taking one's word for it with regard to reporting fa's.
Also, what the hell are you doing up this late? I've got an excuse. I work nights in the arctic. Not a whole lot going on.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
Aug 24, 2011 - 08:18am PT
Me, I'm in Tajikistan. But you can see this train wreck from SPACE.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:05am PT
Dude, one or both of those guys may be your friends so maybe you can't see it the way we all do. I support the fa side insofar as I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt, and the time-honored climbing tradition of taking one's word for it with regard to reporting fa's.
Also, what the hell are you doing up this late? I've got an excuse. I work nights in the arctic. Not a whole lot going on.


Well, that's a fair statement as yes, both of the FA party are my friends. All the same, I'm interested in hearing your perspective and I believe I can do so without feeling a need to argue my point of view.

As for what I'm doing up at that hour, I do shift work at a childen's home and work the overnight. There's some down time later in the shift and it gives me time to think and to write. Now you've got me curious as to what night shift work in the Arctic is like...

Anyway, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the situation as you see it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:51am PT
they wouldn't get any respect nor would this whole thing be put to bed.

Yup, truer words were never spoken. And if Ammon comes back with anything negative about the route, whether it was our responsibility or not, a whole new wave of this garbage will ensue. At some point you just have to say: "Reasonable people have largely changed their minds positively about us, while entrenched people cannot be moved and will fixate on anything they can get to justify their decades of angst. So, we've about played this out as far as it can go."
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:57am PT
And regardless of Ammon's final and breathlessly awaited verdict, WOS is just another climb on a large piece of stone located on a tiny World that is a speck in a vast and rapidly expanding Universe.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:59am PT
I hope this thread and its contents never dies.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mimi again sometime (and meeting Steve as well - although we may have intersected at some time while I was in C4).

I'd like to have a burger and a coke with Richard some time, although I hope he doesn't TALK like he WRITES. And AS MUCH as he WRITES either.

Yeah, I hope this thread and its contents never dies.




And it's funny as fukk how much of a fanboy graniteclimber is for Werner and daDweeb is for madbolter1. In a Fatal Attraction kinda way. Really.


This thread and its contents should not be put out of its misery, but rather should ENJOY its MISERY.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 24, 2011 - 11:13am PT

WOS is just another climb on a large piece of stone located on a tiny World that is a speck in a vast and rapidly expanding Universe.

Note quite. The little blue dot on the right is earth, but the green "slab" in the middle left extending from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame is Wings of Steel. See how big it is compared to the earth.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 24, 2011 - 11:13am PT
That is some deep sh#t Jim.....ooppps I guess that's inappropriate for this thread. Heh heh heh
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 24, 2011 - 11:20am PT
That is some deep sh#t Jim.....ooppps I guess that's inappropriate for this thread.

I spewed my drink through my nose. Thanks a lot!
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 11:49am PT
I wish Da-Dweeb would write shorter posts.

Prod.
east side underground

Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
Aug 24, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
Hey Jim, if you are ever on the Eastside, look me up , we could go hangdog some rap bolted choss I put up :)
Mimi

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
coz, you never did answer about the double standard surrounding your attack of the Growing Up FA while you have never done it. It cuts both ways however; read my post further down. Did you consider JB to be in the 'purity' category? I see no difference between him and Steve when it came to maintaining a high standard no matter what. Being a CA climber and knowing the rich history, why do you feel compelled to defend this FA by immaturely taking cheap shots at us?

And for any interested parties, Ron Anderson is really a new identity for our very own banned AC, Matt Moore. That explains the vile ranting emails and foul language. It's hilarious how mad he is at me. Bwahahaha!

Since when does someone have to climb a route to have the right to criticize the FA's tactics? Do you also go off on movie or music critics or sports writers? I don't know of very many movie critics who were directors or actors. Does that invalidate their review? Same with music. Same with sports. People have a right to their opinion and I have enough climbing experience and appreciation for history to state mine on this forum. Agree or not, the truth will speak for itself soon enough. And it will be substantiated by original statements made by the FA, no one else.

It would be great to see you again too, Dirk.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 24, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
tolman_paul wrote:

I always thought the A4 and A5 rating required a sufficient number of pieces to zipper and a bad landing so that you'd either break bones or die if you pealed. 1/2 dozen bodyweight placements above a bomber piece and a clean fall would be at most A3.

I concur... or even A2. But, as Werner says, ratings don't mean sh#t.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 24, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
coz,
you got a finger on that hand for me?

Let me guess which one (but how many fingers you got on that hand?)
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
Coz -- "you must understand that all human endeavor is meaningless."

Then why you are afraid of death when I come to kill you?

When they say ultimately everything is meaningless then they are working for meaningless things.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 24, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
At some point you just have to say: "Reasonable people have largely changed their minds positively about us, while entrenched people cannot be moved and will fixate on anything they can get to justify their decades of angst. So, we've about played this out as far as it can go."

Didn't we reach that point several years ago?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 24, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
Since Mimi brings up "purity" again...

As I stated before NO big wall route on El Cap was done pure, that I'm aware of. Nutrcracker is a pure line. No bolts, no pins. No modification to the rock was needed.

The game for is to be as pure as possible.

SG tried to be as pure as possible with hard freeclimbing, multiple hooks moves, etc. but if a route needed a bolt was he so "pure" that he said "this line won't go without a bolt, I'm going to retreat because this is not a fully "pure" natural line?"

When JB put up the B-Y drilling from hooks was it pure? JB was the man and a legend but someone could come along some day and do that line drilling from stances. Hell someone could come along and free solo it. JB tried to be as pure as possible.

So the real question is did the WoS team botch the FA when someone else could have done it better, i.e. more pure?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 24, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
On the Bachar-Yerian:

It was originally rated 5.10d and, amazingly, also criticized for the “questionable ethics” of drilling from hooks instead of stance (which would be impossible on the vertical and gently overhung wall).


http://www.supertopo.com/rock-climbing/Tuolumne-Meadows-Medlicott-Dome-Right-Bachar-Yerian
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 24, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Yes my great mentor Werner life is meaningless

Certainly true that we do not know the meaning of life, where we came from, or why. I believe that if we found out we would all be completely surprised. Still, life is wonderful and so definitely not meaningless.

I keep reading every post, and almost get tricked into more replies... but the flowchart still sums it all up nicely... so for those who have not seen it:
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 24, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
My objection was rap bolting on the SFHD.

Coz, one of the stated reasons for rapping on Growing Up was uncertainty over where the line would go. They said the dike they initialy targeted from below for the route above the arch ended in a dead end. Would you have been opposed to inspection on rap to prevent unncessarily bolting on a dead end, if the FA party then returned to ground up for finishing the route?
Gene

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
Great!

WoS meets Growing Up.

10,000 posts. Minimum.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Who wrote the letter to the editor of climbing mag?

GC, you have to ask Dingus how he got his name....he wrote a letter when coz and kid got busted for using power drills on el cap. or at least thats what he said about how he got his name.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
Prod-

I wish Da-Dweeb would write shorter posts.

OK.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Werner-

why you are afraid of death when I come to kill you?


FACT: BY SELF-ADMISSION WERNER IS DEATH INCARNATE



(Also, please have a look at my response to you back on this page when you have a chance:)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=2180
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
Werner = Shiva???!!!

If so, why is he always rescuing people?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Irony.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 24, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Seems like that flow chart should have gone back to the top after the route is repeated. WOS is then in a never ending cycle of controversy or a big yawn.

Dave
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 24, 2011 - 08:17pm PT

Which participant is this cat?
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Aug 24, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
I think Jack Black said it best...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCN3CSLZuI
D.Eubanks

climber
Aug 24, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
deuce4, that photo of Xavier is one of the best wall shots ever.

Xavier Bongard was one of the best Big Wall Climbers EVER ! and a inspiration to many.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
Thanks for the reply coz. I usually can form an opinion pretty easily, but I'm still on the fence on Growing Up. I definitely see the SFHD as a very special place, but I wonder if the adventure of the FA team (a one time deal) so easily outweighs creating the best route for those that follow AND reducing unnecessary holes. So I think first hand inspection of that route is also in order (for me personally at least) to see if I agree with the FA team's call.
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Aug 24, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
I've enjoyed following this wacky thread for years. I've read the WoS book and have no reason to doubt it is an accurate account of the climb. And I look forward to seeing the movie. If the FA of WoS was merely a botched bolt ladder by two bumbling imbeciles rather than a respectable hard climb by talented visionaries as some of you continue to claim, why haven't we been shown any substantial evidence to support your case other than repeated innuendoes and increasingly shrill personal vitriole? The more I read this thread, the more I admire the WoS climbers (both the FA and SA teams) and the less I admire the critics, especially when the latter had years to justify their claims by climbing the route but never got off the ground.
Mimi

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:19am PT
coz:
"WOS is a ground up climb, to say that the climb itself is bad or that the FA team is lying, is only proven by climbing the thing. Is that clear enough for you? Seems like apples and oranges."

coz, I don't agree. What does style mean to you in a big wall context? That goes for you, Rudder, the Fet and Floyd, etc. Yes, it could have been done much better. No question about that. Claiming to have read their book and still not comprehending what went on up there over 39 days is mindboggling to me. The bashing came only after the misrepresentation persisted for months/years. Have any of you besides coz done a big wall or is this merely armchair quarterbacking and supporting the perceived underdog for you?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:35am PT
"Claiming to have read their book and still not comprehending what went on up there over 39 days is mindboggling to me."

OK, so simple question for Mimi:

Could you please provide a concise list of your objections to WoS and/or Richard and Mark? What went on up there for 39 days that you think was wrong or bad, or what someone else could have done better.

There has been so much stuff flung back and forth for so long it's impossible to find everything, but just sort of a basic bullet point summary, please. I ask you as one of the primary detractors to please submit closing arguments, prior to Ammon's story coming out, which is going to be damn fine.

Also, if you know something that nobody else knows or that you haven't revealed yet, now would be the time. The article is going to press shortly.

You never know, you might even find you're right after all.

It will be interesting to see and hear how many extra copies of Rock & Ice will be bought by all the WoS aficionados from here at McTopo! I predict it's going to be a very popular edition.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:40am PT
We plan to torture you at the FaceLift, and get whatever story you have out of you that way. FatTrad advocates waterboarding, but that seems a bit much. Maybe we'll kidnap your crab, and hold it for ransom. If you don't spill the beans - so to speak - Doug will make sushi out of it.

Edit: And if you're on a route, well, we know where to find you, don't we?
Mimi

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:47am PT
Hopefully, it won't go to press with R&I at all as it's well established that Duane Raleigh, the owner, is a real pro when it comes to chiseling. A real enhancement booster. He made a career out of doing it and promoting such tactics. If you aren't familiar, I can post his essays on the topic from Climbing.

Pete, there's no way you're getting a play by play breakdown after all this time. You read Bwana's multithousand word blathering essays on the subject. The problem with the whole truth about enhancements is that it dances around what they actually did. Somehow, Bwana forgot along the way that he wrote this in the Book of Dik, wherein all things are revealed.

Except to Pete, and that Dweeb fella, who's on the verge of forming a Glee Club over this fiasco.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:53am PT
THAT is the basis of all your angst?

What about Sea of Dreams before WoS and Zenyatta Mondatta after WoS? Those two routes employed similar strategies.

Why aren't you beating up on the Bird, too?

Sure - please post the essays.

Anders - if all goes according to plan, during the entire Facelift I shall be high on the side of El Cap on a rather spectacular route that is certain to capture a fair bit of attention from the bridge. Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab says hi to Gretchen and Missy, the Beer Girls, and wonders if they could provide a very long straw to the refillable beer glass.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:59am PT
The problem with the whole truth about enhancements is that it dances around what they actually did.

I haven't met Ammon or Kait, but somehow I doubt they'll dance around anything - they won't tell us anything but what they saw, what they experienced, and what they concluded from that. A healthy dose of facts should be very helpful.
Mimi

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:01am PT
Pete, I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. You are beyond hope. If you've read everything these guys have written, then you'd understand where they were when they left the ground. You are convinced that the FA is special and we happen to think they fall short by a mile and 39 days. You're blinded by your overeager desire to make this climb into something grand, defeat the detractors and march off into the sunset.

Jim is honest and will talk about anything he's done. It's not about condoning or not. Arm waving about someone else's climbs is not the point here. It's about honest and forthright disclosure of the tactics for the millionth time.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Mimi, can you please just answer the f*#king question and make a list? Specifics. You know, real reasons?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:16am PT
The problem with the whole truth about enhancements is that Richard and Mark admitted it--in the book and in this thread-- and it has Mr. and Mrs. Weak Sauce (Mimi and Steve) dancing around in a 30 year long fit of rage about what they actually did.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:20am PT
Word.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:22am PT
Riley, your new nickname is Leeroy Jenkins. Youtube it.
Mimi

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Pete, no, I'm not doing your work for you. You've been in on this since the beginning. Is your brain that muddled?

gnomeboy, yes, after much prodding, they've admitted to some level of enhancement but not the extent. What's your devotional number of enhancements this evening? Out of 145, how many? What percentage? Bwana and Skid finally nestled into 10% or 15 drilled hooks total. Do you think that's accurate? Are you good with whatever they say?

Yes, word, Riles.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:24am PT
What do you know, Mimi, that we don't know?
Mimi

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Jeeze, where do I begin?

As you may have noticed, we've said the same thing into infinity.
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Want to do WOS instead pete?.....j/k
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:28am PT
She just knows, ok? Jeez. Just take her word for it alright? Don't ask for explanations you dick.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:34am PT
Voice of Steve Martin: "Well, ex-cuuuuuuuuuse me!"

Mark - maybe something Bad.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:26am PT

Well, I’m done with the rough draft, it needs some polishing and I’m nearly 1,000 words over the limit but, hey… that’s what editors are for. I do have to say that I’m brutally honest and even poke fun at myself and critique some of my own actions up there (no I didn’t add any holes/bolts/rivets). LOL

I’ve got another 2nd ascent lined up on The Captain (I’ve got two pitches fixed) so by the time I get down hopefully the article will be out and I will try to answer any questions (except who the 3rd shitter is), that didn’t get answered in the story, or maybe some of them will get edited out.

See some of you at the Facelift, YYaaarrrrRRRR!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:36am PT
Great news Ammon! Can't wait!

Earlier I mentioned my notion of style and ethics, and I was mistaken it wasn't from Mountaineering FOTH, it was straight from god himself.

ETHICS
Actions which directly affect others in the climbing community are properly questions of ethics. Several might be considered, but we will be concerned with only one.
PRESERVATION: The primary ethical consideration involves leaving a route unchanged so others may enjoy, as nearly as possible, the creation of those who made the first ascent. Through the years there has been controversy over questions of placing and removing bolts, as well as other questions such as destroying holds or creating them with the pick end of the hammer. Those removing bolts (and holds) often think everyone should do a route in the best possible style or not at all. This is extreme. Climbing is good style is admirable, but must everyone be forced to do so? Opposing these super-purists are extremists of the opposite bent who insist all routes should be accessible to all persons. A compromise is in order, one based upon a simple point of reference.
THE FIRST ASCENT PRINCIPLE: A climb is a work of art, a creation of the men who made the first ascent. To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and to deprive others the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it. It is like taking another's painting or poem and 'improving' it. Better to paint our own pictures and write our own poems. On the other hand, to bring a climb down to one's level by placing bolts (or pitons on an all nut climb) shows and equally lamentable lack of respect for, and degrades the accomplishments of, its creators. If we do not disturb the route done in a shoddy manner (e.g. the placement of unnecessary bolts), it will do no harm, and may provide a good climb for the less capable. And as for the route done in elegant fashion - let it remain as a pinnacle of achievement to which we may aspire. Better that we raise our skills than lower the climb. So let it be.
The above definition of climbing ethics, self-limiting as it is, has the advantage of avoiding the chancy area of pre-judging the way a first ascent should be done. This is left entirely to the individual and becomes a question not of ethics but of style.

STYLE
'Style' is a slippery word, difficult to define. In rockclimbing it refers to the methods and equipment used, and the degree of 'adventure' involved in the ascent. Adventure here means the degree of uncertainty as to the outcome. Generally, methods and equipment determine the amount of adventure. Thus, by using the method of siege climbing and using as part of our equipment an unlimited number of bolts - success on any pure rock climb on earth, no matter how flawless, is virtually assured. There would be no adventure in such an endeavor, and it would be in the worst possible style. On the other hand, to assault a great wall in a direct, committing way, without fixed lines, and with a limited amount of food, water, and equipment, is to climb in good style. It is to place more trust on one's personal qualities and skill, and less reliance on equipment and laborious methods. But the style must be suited to the climb. To use good big-wall style on a little wall is to turn good style to bad. To climb in good style is to climb in the most natural way possible, to do it with the smallest number of technological aids. The first technological aid to be eliminated, if possible, is the bolt, for it can be placed anywhere. With pitons one at least needs a crack, though almost any size and shape will do. Jammed nuts are better, for with them we must adapt to the nature of the crack. We must work with the rock; we can't force it. It is more natural. Better still are runners placed on the natural belay points such as horns, trees, or chockstones. And finally, we come to climbing alone, without a rope. But that will be for the few. The trick is to suit the style to the climb and to oneself. The truly ultimate style is the perfect match - the treading of that fine edge between ambition and ability.
Granted we are free to try to climb in any style we choose as long as we don't damage the route, what about the many individuals who desire a better definition of the good game, those who aren't so much interested in getting up routes as in meeting the essential challenge of them? What is a good general goal to shoot for - one which, when achieved, will leave us with a feeling of accomplishment, of having done the route in the right way? In other words, what is the point of the game? Every climb is different. A good standard which is always applicable and yet which also allows for the individuality of each route is our first ascent principle. It can guide us in questions of style as well as ethics. If we take our general stylistic goal the way the first ascent was done, we have a ready made, always available standard for a minimum style to shoot for. The acceptance of this principle has the advantage of obviating general style controversies. A further advantage is that the style of the first ascent is a reasonable goal, for those who come after have the psychological advantage of knowing the route will go, as well as a description of the route. If we regard the style in which a route was established, we pay respect to the men who did it, and show we are aware of their values and that we consider their climb a creation, not just another climb to be knocked off and checked in our guidebook.

There must be shorter definitions of style and ethics I read somewhere that basically say the same thing. Ethics are your actions that affect other climbers (changing the route). Style is the method in which you climb the route (time, gear, etc.). I take the preservation ethic even a little bit farther from leaving the route as much as possible as the FA party left it to leaving the route as much as possible as nature created it. So the FA team is also on the hook for that ethic IMO.

An FA is really the only situation I can think of where style and ethics collide, because there's only once chance for the FA. And did the FA team take away the opportunity for another team to do it in better style. BUT, almost always (unless it's on onsight solo FA) someone could potentially do the route FA in better style. Everyone of SG's routes that required even an single bolt, pin, or head, could potentially be done in better style. So the FA team decides they if they are capable of doing the route in a good enough (reasonable) style.

For WoS:
1. The potential is for a different FA team to take less time- I believe this is a somewhat personal decision because it is really a question of style, not ethics, but they took 39 days for the FA. They didn't climb on Sundays so that leaves about 34 days climbing. The SA by one of the fastest difficult big wall aid climbers in the world took 13 days. So the SA took about 40% of the time for the FA. SAs are almost always quicker and considering this route required lots of drilled placements which take lots of time (we don't know yet how many placements had to be replaced by the SA team, versus the placement that were replaced earlier) but I would say that shows the time required for the FA was entirely reasonable.
2. A different team could have used less bolts- Everyone I'm aware of who has actually been on the route says is is very stout and required multiple falls of up to 60 feet. I would say the number of bolts used was entirely reasonable and actually more than bold enough.
3. A minority (approximately 10%) of the hook placements were "enhanced". The FA team was honest enough to be forthcoming with that information when they could have not mentioned it and no one would know, so for people to claim they are lying about it without any evidence is really lame. The FA team has demonstrated that they used many marginal hook placements that other great climbers had difficulties and took falls from. So they can do very difficult hooking. If they had to knock a crystal off an edge to get a hook to hold, probably any other team would have had to do the same. So then the question is should they have drilled a hole and put in a rivet instead. I think that's a judgement call. Personally I don't think knocking out a crystal is much different than pounding in a pin (which also changes the rock) or scraping out a seam for a head.

So Mimi how could it have been done "much better"?

"The bashing came only after the misrepresentation persisted for months/years." That is utter bullsh#t. The bashing started immediately after they started the climb. Maybe you mean the bashing from you personally? And what misrepresentation? I have seen zero evidence that the FA team misrepresented anything, while I see lot's of misrepresentation from the detractors brought to light. And basically that is why I came to support them, not because they were underdogs but because what they have said has been proven true and what they detractors say have often been proven false. And when the really negative things (it's a bolt ladder) have been proven untrue the detractors move the goal posts and complain about less and less significant issues (enhancements/time), that IMO are really up to the FA team to decide.

You say "The problem with the whole truth about enhancements is that it dances around what they actually did", but Richard started a whole thread (in typically painfully verbose fashion) about it called surprisingly enough: The-whole-truth-about-the-enhancements LOL!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/963934/WoS-confessions-The-whole-truth-about-the-enhancements

To call it out again from above:
The above definition of climbing ethics, self-limiting as it is, has the advantage of avoiding the chancy area of pre-judging the way a first ascent should be done. This is left entirely to the individual and becomes a question not of ethics but of style.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 25, 2011 - 03:19am PT

She Just Knows!
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 25, 2011 - 03:19am PT
The Fet wrote:

1. The potential is for a different FA team to take less time- I believe this is a somewhat personal decision because it is really a question of style, not ethics, but they took 39 days for the FA. They didn't climb on Sundays so that leaves about 34 days climbing. The SA by one of the fastest difficult big wall aid climbers in the world took 13 days. So the SA took about 40% of the time for the FA. SAs are almost always quicker and considering this route required lots of drilled placements which take lots of time (we don't know yet how many placements had to be replaced by the SA team, versus the placement that were replaced earlier) but I would say that shows the time required for the FA was entirely reasonable.

Just to clarify:

People who know me or have been around the Valley while I'm on a wall, knows if I'm camping I'm going to lounge around in the portaledge a good part of the day. I'm not exactly an early riser and most days on WOS I would climb a pitch that would take three or four hours and call it a day.

When I'm going for a push ascent, that's a whole other ball game, it's GO time.

[edit] but good points
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 06:42am PT
Prod-

Given your request, here is a summary of my post in haiku.

the canary speaks
warns the snake of its own blight
snake hears only "tweet"
DonC

climber
CA
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:28am PT
My first post on this long thread...

Pounding one pitch of pins or heads is likely to cause far more damage to the rock than the enhancements made on the entire WOS. One pin in a highly granular placement will knock-off more edges than many micro enhanced hook placements.

Isn’t less damage to the rock one component of good style – fewer pins pounded, fewer bolts used, etc. If so, the scope between what people did to establish other new routes during the same time period, and what people continue to do today on established clean routes and WOS, doesn’t even compare. So, what is the issue? Is it just something personal against these guys?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:35am PT
In a word? "Yes."
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:37am PT
So, what is the issue? Is it just something personal against these guys?

The issue seems to be that some people completely lost their sense of perspective. Their priorities in life became so out of whack that they felt justified in trying to kill two climbers on El Capitan by throwing heavy objects at them from far above.

Apparently, the community of Yosemite climbers' priorities were so out of whack, or perhaps they were intimidated, that they gave tacit approval to this attempted murder, and even protect the identities and admire the thugs to this day.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:54am PT
2:43 "Leeroy, you were just stupid as hell!"
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:18am PT
"Leeroy, you were just stupid as hell!"

Ahh, sweet Warcraft memories.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:31am PT
"Apparently, the community of Yosemite climbers' priorities were so out of whack, or perhaps they were intimidated, that they gave tacit approval to this attempted murder, and even protect the identities and admire the thugs to this day." Wanker Gary


Talk about loss of perspective, you're just one of the many delusional wankers posting jive ass bullshit here regarding an incident you know absolutely nothing about...you moron. An individual throws full beers at these two and you decide that everyone approved of that?
Speculative postulations are pretty rampant on this thread but you're more delusional than most. The lame canard that there is some sort of climbing community shows how misinformed and downright ignorant you really are.
One of the folks that threw full beers down on these two was from Germany, people from all over the planet gave these two a hard time you schmuck.
You weren't there, you don't know squat about much, and your perspective is warped. So just wait for the article from the tabloid Rack of Lies for more lies and misinformation. If you throw down money for that bird cage liner then you deserve to be misinformed.
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Meaty says

Talk about loss of perspective, you're just one of the many delusional wankers posting jive ass bullshit here regarding an incident you know absolutely nothing about...you moron.

Now that is good description of a lot of these stupid Supertopo wankers here ....
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Maybe if the route had been named after a Frank Zappa song, it wouldn't cause so many hemorrhoids to flare up so.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Somebody tried to kill those guys, and their identities are protected here. According to what has been posted previously, anyway. You spin it however you like, Meaty.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:56am PT
No spin from me you dickwad, I was there, you weren't.
No one is protecting anyone except the shitters, fun to watch people go nuts because they don't know who they are.
Rumor has it one of the folks that threw beers at them is dead, the other?? Who knows?? You surely don't know much.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:56am PT
It’s been years and at any single point you’ve had the opportunity to lay down arms, swallow your pride, and attempt some resolution.

Noble thought; not gonna happen.

You see, almost 30 years ago, the screaming Mimi squatted down over the pile of ropes and gear on the ground, the heap to which she had reduced a week of risk, pain, and injury, and she emptied her bowels on it. And she has spent the last 29 years justifying that event in her own mind and in the minds of as many people as would take her seriously. Easy to see in that context why she is the way she is. Hard to see how such a distorted personality is going to suddenly change now.

Exhibit Z' for the court: she keeps quoting the same passage from my book as though it is an INDICTMENT, when what the passages says is EXACTLY what I've explained in detail on these threads: "leveled the edge." NO mention of a dimple, pit, hole, etc. Somehow in the distorted Mimi's world, that quote proves that I've been lying on these threads all along. What it actually demonstrates is a multi-decade consistency on every detail. Mark and I know what we did, and to the absolute best of our recollection we've been entirely forthright about it for decades. What Mimi keeps quoting is just another demonstration of that fact.

And the idea some keep floating that we've got to wait on Ammon's report to really evaluate whether or not the shyter's/bombers were ultimately justified is patently ridiculous.

Even if such tactics could EVER be justified, there is exactly ZERO doubt about what the first two pitches are, and there's been no doubt for many, many years. MANY people have been on those pitches and ALL report the exact same thing: long run-outs, desperate hooking, no visible modifications, etc. etc.

THAT is what the chopping/shyting cowards had in front of them that night. THAT is the evidence that was before them when they decided to start lying to everybody.

And THAT is what Mimi chopped and squatted over 29 years ago. Isn't that right, Mimi? Can you finally admit it?

Whatever Ammon has found higher on the route after, lo, these 29 years is pretty meaningless, because this has never been about evidence. If there are holes, we didn't drill them. If the route remained pristine, that will change nothing in the minds of our critics. They will just move the target again and continue on as before.

Because, this is the crux point....

What people got all rabid about and chopped, squatted, and bombed on was in the context of TWO pitches of evidence, and the jury has been in on that subject for a lot of years.

To NO AVAIL!

Evidence and rational thought have NEVER been factors with these people, Mimi heading the list.

Mimi, you're no Spartacus in ANY sense.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
The lame canard that there is some sort of climbing community shows how misinformed and downright ignorant you really are.... people from all over the planet gave these two a hard time you schmuck.

Uhh... let's see if I can follow this. NO climbing community = worldwide climbing community. Uhh....

And Demetri, you sure were there, weren't you? At the ranger meeting, on the basis of no evidence that YOU had in your possession, you were well-remembered by everybody there as BY FAR the most rabid of the lot. And ALL the evidence you COULD have had would have showed you that you were wrong. But exactly like a dog pissing on a tree....

Well, point made.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
No spin from me you dickwad, I was there, you weren't.
No one is protecting anyone except the shitters, fun to watch people go nuts because they don't know who they are.
Rumor has it one of the folks that threw beers at them is dead, the other?? Who knows?? You surely don't know much.

You're right. No reason to be upset about the thought of objects being thrown down at people on a wall. It's all cool and all in fun. I'm sure the FA party got a real chuckle out of that. You have a nice day, Meaty.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Like I said Gary, you don't know much.
Trying to imply that everyone around was cheerleading for objects thrown in their direction is pure bullsh#t.

Again, there is no climbing community no matter how much you'd like to buy into that delusional bullsh#t.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
No, no, Gary. You're all confused again. Let me try to help once more.

The fist-fights, chopping, shyting, bombing, defamation, etc., etc. are all the tactics that the (non-existent) climbing community employs to "police itself" to maintain the ethical purity of the sport.

Got it?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
Trying to imply that everyone around was cheerleading for objects thrown in their direction is pure bullsh#t.

Dimitri, "everyone" is indeed an overstatement, but so is "pure bullsh#t." YOU WERE one of the primary cheerleaders, and that you cannot deny. Remember that I was also there, as were a lot of other people that know the truth about YOU.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
Typical of you two as#@&%es. I was in no way cheerleading for objects thrown in your direction. Get over yourself you f*#king wanker.

Edit: Madwanker, Some lame post about inciting a riot isn't gonna shut me up.
I don't give a sh#t if your silly climb is considered difficult, I still think you two as#@&%es suck ass for calling me one of the shitters all these years. Neferius got that lie from you, so f*#k you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
The United States statute defining riot. It's a pretty low bar.

A public disturbance involving (1) an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual or (2) a threat or threats of the commission of an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons having, individually or collectively, the ability of immediate execution of such threat or threats, where the performance of the threatened act or acts of violence would constitute a clear and present danger of, or would result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual.18 U.S.C. § 2102

Dimitri, you should take a look at what "inciting a riot" involves. You would do far better for yourself at this juncture on this topic to just stop posting.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
meaty, get over yourself already
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
I liked Meaty better when he the errand boy for various of the elite. The upturned lizard shirt collar, the docksiders, the Levi jean jacket, the heal rocking.

Did you drink too much Hatorade or what?


It's a shame the sihtters will always be tagged as the sihtters. They'll have to live and die with that.

The C4 protagonistas who fueled a culture where some fugged up sh!t like that can actually happen will forever be accused of either being a sh!tter or of being a valley christian.

It's even more of a shame that the sh!tees will forever be tagged as the sh!tees. Even if they did deserve it. Or not.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
mimi being one of the crappers sheds some lite on her rabidness (if that is in fact true). mimi, you have been called out? are you big enough to either deny or agree with the assertion? or just more rabid BS?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
Trying to imply that everyone around was cheerleading for objects thrown in their direction is pure bullsh#t.

You're correct there. I have enough faith in my fellow climbers to think the big majority was appalled.
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
Pete:
What do you know, Mimi, that we don't know?

Mimi:
Jeeze, where do I begin?
As you may have noticed, we've said the same thing into infinity.


We know you've said the same thing for years.

What people are asking is: How do you KNOW FOR SURE that what you and SG say is fact?

You admit have never even met the FA party.

You admit that you haven't been on the route, not even the first pitch.

You admit that you haven't seen any of the hook placements.

So, it appears you don't actually know $hit from shinola yet you insist on presenting your opinions as fact.

You can chirp on forever, but most folks want to know:

Fact based on what?



Other than generalized opinions regarding the style the route was put up in (time involved, chipping involved, bat heads involved, etc. - all of which the FA party admits to) you don't have the cred to make any further statements.

That is to say, based on the known facts, anyone can have an opinion as to whether or not the FA style is personally acceptable but nobody except those who have climbed it and seen what exists can make a judgment regarding whether or not Mark and Richard are lying or breached some magical ethics barrier - yet you continue to do so.

And you keep presenting it as fact.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
Meaty:
Again, you don't know what happened but you're here spewing lies and innuendo.

Evidence? The choppers/shitters claimed to have chopped your bolt ladder, that was all I needed.


No one is protecting anyone except the shitters

You don't know what happened. Based on the shitters claims (putting your trust in the word of someone willing to sh#t on someone's gear, not smart) you jumped on the bandwagon prepetuated lies and encouraged persecution, you're not responsible for it but you did foster an environment where dropping full beers was somehow a legitmate response. And who drops a full beer they are hauling on a wall? The ulimate lame act of spite. And to this day you still protect the shitters. The people who lied about what they found. The peole who chopped a pitch without climbing it first.

Bubba, for the record SG did say he saw evidence of drilled hook placements when he swung over to the top of the climb. Ammons reports may help clear that up because if the middle pitches are pristine and different from what SG saw that may have been the result of another party. At least that is some legitimate basis for controversy, but of course the derision started long before this.

To think you should protect someone who sh#t on someones gear or dropped full beers on someone (both NEVER justified no matter what the FA team did)...
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
Fet,
I do know what happened, and clearly you have no clue.
Listen up you f*#king dickwad, I never sh#t on anyones ropes, I never threw beer cans at anyone, get that you piece of sh#t??
Do you think I'm the only one that knows who the shitters are?
Loads of people know who they are, save your bullshit for them you f*#king punk. Save your delusional tripe for those accountable for what you consider unruly.


I'm free now as I was then to speak my mind, I never incited anyone to do anything.Don't lecture me you f*#king moron. Maybe by now you can see I could give a sh#t about the "pristine" Wings of Wankers??
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
Wow, gasoline, just wow. Apparently you think that "unconditional love" is inconsistent with accountability.

And if you can equate a bit of attempted accountability on an Internet forum with....

Uh, well, nuff said.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
You clearly DO give a sh#t, Dimitri. You did then, you have for 29 years, and you do now.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
No Madwanker, I don't care one bit and haven't for over 25 years, and then one of your fan boys posted lies fed to his tiny feeble brain from you here. Your climb was fun cannon fodder all those years ago, but now only a select few could give a sh#t, I'm not one of them. Just another El Cap climb done by a couple of dolts.

But I will take the time to defend myself. You two as#@&%es have called me one of the shitters for 29 years no matter how many times you lie and deny it. My response to that lie is f*#k you.
So when your wanker pal Randy posted that lie years ago I simply defended myself, he clearly heard the lie from you two chumps. Other than that I could give a rats ass about your dumbass climb, how it was done, who repeats it and how, who shits on it. I'm not alone.

I must have missed the riot, but keep the canards flowing dickwad, and keep swimming in your own sh#t.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
Prod-

Given your request, here is a summary of my post in haiku.

the canary speaks
warns the snake of its own blight
snake hears only "tweet"

NICE POST Da-Dweeb.

Please note that that request was not a cut down. It's just that I get online about twice a day, and when I have to read long posts that could be shorter......

Prod.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
Dimitri, show me a single place, anywhere, where I have accused you even once, much less "for 29 years" of being one of the shyters. Randy rattled your cage, but I have never said anything of the sort. And 29 years??? Actually not once, not ever.

You're an orbital module for other reasons, and you have incited to riot. But I know you weren't one of those who squatted and grunted.

And, stinkeye, you have good reason to hope, don't you? When did you get that nickname? Was that about 29 years ago?
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
Lunch break is over.

Thanks for keeping me entertained.

Prod.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Aug 25, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Fet:
Bubba, for the record SG did say he saw evidence of drilled hook placements when he swung over to the top of the climb. Ammons reports may help clear that up because if the middle pitches are pristine and different from what SG saw that may have been the result of another party. At least that is some legitimate basis for controversy, but of course the derision started long before this.


It's a legitimate basis if it's factual but I'd give a lot more credence to a report from a disinterested third party than from one of the main detractors. (or the FA party for that matter)
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 25, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
Meaty shrieked:

I do know what happened, and clearly you have no clue.
Listen up you f*#king dickwad, I never sh#t on anyones ropes, I never threw beer cans at anyone, get that you piece of sh#t??
Do you think I'm the only one that knows who the shitters are?
Loads of people know who they are, save your bullshit for them you f*#king punk.


LOL!!

I based my comments on what YOU have written here. Instead of responding you go straight to insults, profanity, and an insider attitude. Makes it easy to see why things went down like they did BITD.

I said you weren't responsible for those things but by perpetuating the lies you helped created an environment for that to happen.

It's funny how you don't seem to have any regret for perpetuating lies, but get SO upset when you THINK people claim you were responsible for the shitting.

It's funny to that the shitters/liars/choppers who didn't climb it are "protected" and haven't come forward. They aren't proud of it. They are hiding like cowards and living with it rather than face up to that horrendous and childish act.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 25, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
Wow Meaty you're the gift that keeps on giving.

I don't think you or anyone else has any responsiblity to "out" the shitters. If they need to hide let them.

I put in bold you weren't responsible for the shitting/bombing, but you still don't get it? Again wow.

Are you denying that you were part of the crew that came down on the WoS crew, called it a bolt ladder, etc. without any first hand knowledge of the route?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
Isn't it fun dealing with this sort of "mentality?" Now multiply and extend by 29 years. Ahh... good, clean FUN!!!
Jim Leininger

Trad climber
tucson, az
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Well, my first post to this long story... Seems like a lot of people, especially the detractors, get REALLY emotional in their replies to simple questions.. For example, "Meaty" stated :

"Evidence? The choppers/shitters claimed to have chopped your bolt ladder, that was all I needed."

In oter words, "they said it so I believe it"...Seems like jumping on the bandwagon with both feet to me... And then a little later he says :

"Fet, you ignorant bastard. I never perpetuated anything, f*#kwad."

Again, awfully emotional response!!!

I'm not taking anyone's side on this, but it sure brings on a good chuckle now and then to see how emotional some people get and still claim to be not involved...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
you use post on the internet to form an opinion??

Dimitri, what did YOU use to form YOUR opinion? (Obviously still strongly held, I see.) Remember, let's try to stay focused on the first two pitches. THAT was the evidence of the day.

Ever see 'em? Ever try to climb 'em?

When you led that verbal charge in the ranger meeting and the subsequent gangland activities, what did you KNOW about the route and how did you know it?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
You've been posting an awful lot LATELY about Randy yanking your chain years ago.

And you've confused (pervasive problem) a spirited defense with promotion. They are two different things.

Promoting is saying things like, "Proud route we did. Way ahead of its time. We were awesome." And so forth.

We've never said those things.

Defense is saying things like, "It's not a bolt/rivet ladder. We were way scared because it seemed hard to US. We didn't drill any dimples or bat hooks on the route, because we learned THAT tactic on the Sea years later. There are good reasons for it having taken us so long." And so forth.

Two different tactics, my friend. Try not to confuse at least that much.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
I think what the Dimitri did might be called "proxy sh!tting".

There's really not much else you can call it, really.
Gene

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
DEMENTRI


LOL.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
Wow, Dimitri, that was quite the back-edit. Changes nothing of substance, though.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
From back-edit:

Every single time you have an opportunity to correct one of your fellow wankers here, like twistedwanker, you stay silent. F*#k you.

LOL. Now it's my responsibility to "correct" my "fellow wankers?" ROFL
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
I guess I stand corrected.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
Hey Madbolter, while you're here, I have a question. It's got nothing to do with the controversy, and maybe you've answered before and I missed it.

How did you feel about the route? I kmow the ordeal meant a lot to you guys to do it, and you didn't want the brouhaha. I'm Not askng about that.

But what did you think of the route itself? Did you like it? Was it fun? In normal times would you have reccommendef it to your friends who are into hooking?

Or, with all the fuss, Is it impossible to tell?

If you've talked about this in the past I must have missed it. Seems like a normal
question for most routes.

Cheers!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
Wow, Meaty, you come accross as a real class act. Sure your not still in Jr high beating up that one kid that evryone picked on???
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
The gift that keeps on giveing :)
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
He got him a bad case of hater-herpes.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 25, 2011 - 06:26pm PT

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
Neal - dude, come on. You don't hear me purporting to know all about or pontificating on Judaism, so why do you purport to understand Christianity? Why don't we stick to what we know, so we don't look like idiots? [Please tell me you feel guilty. If not, you *should* feel guilty]

In defence of the raving lunatic Meaty = Dimitri Barton, he is nothing more than that - a raving lunatic. Every one of my sources agrees that at the infamous "SAR meeting", Dimitri was by far the most vocal and rabid in his opposition. Evidently he continues unabated today, a very unhappy fellow it would appear. [And my apologies to Werner - I know, I know, it wasn't *everyone* at SAR, there were other non-SAR people there too, chill out, dude]

However Dimitri wasn't a shitter, he is merely an @sshole.

But sonuvabitch, Richard beat me to it.

All of the evidence I have uncovered so far strongly and unequivocally suggests that Mimi - the all time b|tch of McTopo - was indeed one of the Shitters. I shitt you knott. She confessed, but later tried to "Spartacus out". How cowardly.

I only have it on second-hand info from a variety of independent sources - all of which concur - so at the moment it is only hearsay and merely my belief. However I will have the opportunity to speak face-to-face with my sources when I am in Yosemite this fall, and can confirm it.

Mimi "40 grit" De Gravelle, aka Mrs. Steve Grossman - you've been outed.

What do you have to say for yourself? Here's your Big Chance. Or will you now hide in your cowardice?
Bubba Ho-Tep

climber
Evergreen, CO
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
I don't know, Pete.

I was sort of there when it happened. I remember the hoopla throughout C4 surrounding the affair but was on Half Dome when all the sh#t went down (so to speak) and got my information days later, second hand from what I think was a credible source - a well known valley climber and SAR member.

I'm not saying who told me, or who he told me the shitters were, but I will say that Mimi's name was not mentioned (nor was Dimitri's for that matter).
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
Coming soon to a theatre near you!!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Mimi, has the reasoning ability of a cow staring at it's reflection in a hub cap.

So what does that make me, if I try to reason with a cow?
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
A shiny hub cap?
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
I concur with Bubba re: Dimitri and Mimi.

I was in Mammoth at the time and a well-known climber (but not SAR member) told me the same story, including names. I would have recognized Mimi's name immediately because (1) I knew her long before the events ever took place and (2) I had no idea she had even gravitated to YV by that time. Her name was not mentioned and I would have known it if it was.

The same goes for Dimitri, although I had already recognized him as the anger-boy hate-monger scene-and-be-seen tool that he was and I would not have at all been surprised if he has squatted and separated.

Pass The Poop Tube Pete, you should sack up an apologize to Mimi.

But don't give Dimitri the benefit of the reacharound.
Gene

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
graniteclimber asks:
So what does that make me, if I try to reason with a cow?


Mimi has previously opined:
graniteclimber, you ignorant slut:

No dog in this fight. I'm just an observer. Like when Tyson bit off Holyfield's ear.

I'm so glad we are finally getting to the important and relevant issues.

Why all the angst and putrid posts?

g
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Jaybro, I really appreciate such a perceptive question, and I'm happy to take a stab at answering. I'll also try to keep it (fairly) short. lol

Mostly the route was grim. It wasn't fun. Ammon has talked before about the "tedious" nature of the hooking. It's hard to describe how the juxtaposition of the "sameness" and the terror works. We were scared all the time. I, personally, don't think I ever fully got my ankle out of my mind. It hurt all the time, the whole route, and it wasn't properly flexible. So just moving in the aiders was a constant reminder of the potential of yet more pain to come. And each fall seemed worse to me because my mind was screaming: "Watch the ankle!" Fortunately, aside from scrapes and bruises, the other falls didn't exact a steeper price.

That said, however, the sheer beauty of that slab is impossible to fully describe! It SHINES! It GLOWS! It catches all different sorts of light and takes on those colors. We were back and forth on the main water streak, and it flowed until mid-afternoon that year. And it caught the light and really glowed. And the wall is RIPPLED in a way you don't see from the meadow or the ground. It's like you are slowly moving up these shining waves of perfectly-polished rock, glassy smooth in many areas.

It teams with life. The swallows (I enjoyed, Mark hated) are like little jet fighters, and the peregrine falcons are beyond amazing as they stoop down the wall taking those guys out! Several times they flew by almost arm's reach away! There are spiders and little red mites everywhere. It's like you're immersed in this ecosystem, and being that long in it you come to feel a part of it. We belonged. We LIVED there. This wasn't "getting up" a wall. This was living there... being there.

Another thing that's hard to describe is that even belaying on that route is intense. So, there's no mental rest whether you're leading or belaying. The falls launch you, and you get launched quite a bit! You get banged up just getting launched into the anchor so much. And you empathize with what the leader is going through. So, the thing slowly drains you of the will to continue. It's relentless, whether you're leading or belaying. As I said, it mostly felt grim.

But I actually found the hooking itself profoundly interesting. The flakes are SO tiny that you FEEL the subtle differences in them more than see the differences. You start to get a FEEL for what's got a better chance of holding. It's like caressing the rock gently to detect its minute secrets. I can imagine how others would find this unappealing or just tedious. Like: try this... fall; try that... fall; try the other... move on. But we found that if we slowed down and really FELT the rock, we did better.

Another thing that you wouldn't initially think about is the drilling itself. When you are top-looping a hook flake the size of a dime, imagine the outward pull, the not-good sort of pressure on the flake. Once you've gotten yourself positioned, your heels together and your toes wide to make a triangulated stance, you don't MOVE! I mean you don't move a muscle from the waist down. So, imagine drilling now. You arch your back away from the wall, barely balanced, reach as high overhead as you can (make the effort count). You want to POUND on that drill holder, because every flake you're on is a ticking time-bomb, and you want OFF of it! But you can't! POUNDING on the drill holder like normal causes far too much lower-body movement. And your lower body has to be STILL. So, you're hitting that drill holder with, like, 1/4 force. So every bolt or rivet takes so much longer than it should. Your feet go to sleep. Then your lower legs. Then your calves and thighs start cramping. Your lower back is hurting from the arch in it. The pain, honestly, gets intense! So, when you finally get the drilled placement in (IF you do without falling yet again), you have to hang there for at least fifteen minutes just getting functional again. That tiny piece of metal IN the wall is Heaven in the sea of hooking. And it's a mental TRAUMA to move off of it onto that next micro-flake. Terror, rest, terror. Rinse and repeat.

We didn't drill unless we couldn't find something to hook. We weren't just slapping in holes when we got scared. The only thing about our drilling that the rock didn't dictate was whether or not we put in a bolt or rivet. So, we were intentionally trying to, as the Bird said, "Keep the commitment level high." And, because we KNEW that we didn't know quite where the bar of "commitment level" OUGHT to be, our goal was to keep ourselves as utterly terrified as possible. So, we intended the route to feel grim to us. We weren't seeking to have fun. We were seeking to know what we were made of. I don't mean that to sound grandiose. I'm just saying that we didn't do that route for the typical reasons people do routes.

And I think that's one of the reasons why the particular nature of the defamation has been so painful over the years. It's not just that we didn't do ANY of what we've been accused of. It's that our accusers have seemed to project THEIR motivations for climbing such a route onto us. And we just didn't have some of the typical motivations. We went up there intending to terrorize ourselves, and "success" for us each day was rapping back to the bivy each night completely drained.

During the three-day storm at the top of the slab, we started having the same nightmares. In our dreams we would climb and climb and climb. For days. Yet the summit keep receding. So we would rappel and rappel. But the ground would recede away. So, we would give up and try to climb and climb again. But the summit would recede away. On and on. Night after night. A month into it, we were mentally maxed out in a way I have never experienced. And after that three-day storm, we almost bailed. It was mighty close. But we just kept thinking of the price we had paid thus far, and we just couldn't bring ourselves to start down. We kept thinking that if we could get into the Overseer cracks, we could make it to Aquarian.

We had always planned to end up in Aquarian wall, because our scoping efforts had revealed that there was only overhanging blankness from the top of the Overseer cracks to Truck Stop or any other features straight up. And when we got up there, we saw that our scoping was confirmed. By then we were actually a bit worried that we might find some tiny crack systems leading up, because by then we were really ready to get into Aquarian. Fortunately, nothing presented at the top of the Overseer cracks. We were DONE. The slab had just kicked the crap out of us.

When we reached the top, it was totally anti-climactic. No real sense of triumph. No sense of "we kicked ass" or anything like that. And we hadn't walked in more than a month, so even hiking out was a struggle.

And I really remember something strange from the hike out!

As we were hiking the Falls trail, we encountered a few girls. The looked STRANGE, man! I mean, women are built SO differently from men, and we had only see each other for 39 days. We got so mentally accustomed to seeing only the male form (no homo!) that that was "normal." And I was actually STARING at those girls, not in lust, but in AWE... just thinking, "Wow! That is something DIFFERENT!" Ever since then I've had a whole new appreciation for just how women are built. I don't mean that to sound seedy. I mean that they are just wonderful, and I'm so glad that we aren't all built like men. lol

After the ascent, the "persecution" set in for real. It was everywhere we went. We couldn't go to a climbing area in SoCal (except the Quarry) where people didn't recognize us and either catcall or yell obscenities at us. Sometimes groups would gather around to "have their say." All the while, we were thinking, "Wow, it sure seemed hard to US. It really isn't like they are saying it is. But perhaps we really ARE just complete losers."

And that self-doubt is what motivated us to try things like the Sea and Intifada. Now our critics say that we were all about self-promotion, but that wasn't it at all. We needed to KNOW if we were really as lame as we were being told. And as we saw that we weren't, we became DEFIANT! The objectives facts of what we did up there can be DERIVED from the drilled placements. But there is a deep subtlety about the performance we were seeking from ourselves that cannot be objectively quantified that way, and it was that subtlety that we needed to KNOW about ourselves.

The game we played was simple: run it out on natural hooking (sans this or that offending crystal on an edge) until no hook flake presented. Then drill a bolt or rivet (depending upon what had gone before). DEAL with what the rock presented and take EVERY opportunity to use the TINIEST of features to get up without drilling. Only in that way could we ensure that the self-test was real. And for us, the self-test was all that mattered.

Well, you know me... a bit longer than might be hoped. What can I say?

How about a bit more? lol

I've emphasized the grimness, because that is what we were seeking, and we found more than plenty of it. But that route did define me in terms of my self-image, and I think in entirely positive ways. Ever since that climb, I've KNOWN who and what I am in a way that few people on Earth ever will. I think that's the great thing about climbing: the opportunity it presents you to KNOW YOURSELF to OWN YOURSELF. I got that from WoS and subsequent climbs. So, I look back now with great fondness on the route. We are inexorably linked. Whatever is there now is not "the route" to me. I don't care what has happened to it or what will happen to it. "The route" was what I experienced on it and how that experience changed me. And I think that everything else I've accomplished in life can be traced back to those 39 self-defining days. For better or worse, I am the person I am today because of "the route."
MH2

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
Thanks, mb1.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 25, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
thanks for that madbolter.

quite a counter to the mimibombs going off on here and that dimitri dude (aka - meat) must have been in the sun too long....
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
Nice interesting writeup Richard.

Thanks very much for doing that .......
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
MB1: Interesting read.... +1
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
Thanks for that MB.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
Dimitri,

Ammon's writing the article, not me. I didn't accuse you of being a shitter, I defended you as knott.

I merely noted that you are as rabid then as you are now. Why is this? Why do you care so? Why are you so vexed by Wings of Steel? Why then? And why now?

Richard Jensen - you FINALLY wrote something worth reading in its entirety! What's getting into you? Are you drinking some of those beers you bought for me? Or are you eating meat?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:38pm PT


And I think that's one of the reasons why the particular nature of the defamation has been so painful over the years. It's not just that we didn't do ANY of what we've been accused of. It's that our accusers have seemed to project THEIR motivations for climbing such a route onto us. And we just didn't have some of the typical motivations. We went up there intending to terrorize ourselves, and "success" for us each day was rapping back to the bivy each night completely drained.

For better or worse, I am the person I am today because of "the route."

But Richard, you should like, get over it. Can you hear me telling you to get over it? Contemptuously? As though I understood and could somehow personally connect to what you'd been through? Who cares if the harassment continues to this day. Stinkeye in his infinite wisdom will tell you, it's not important. GET OVER IT AND GO CLIMB A ROCK. Because somehow, magically, suppressing avoiding and pretending the hurt you suffered wasn't important will make it allll better. Right? ...Right?!




(And by the way I was being sarcastic.)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
Pete, you hoser. Meat! It is my utter abstinence from meat over the past 4+ decades that has made me the man I am today.

What's that? What's that sound I hear? The sound of everybody suddenly rushing from their keyboards to check the fridge to see if...

"Beef! It's what's for dinner!"
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
Dimitri, Dimitri, Dimitri .....

Take a deep breath there, buddy.

Repeat after me: "Pete did not accuse me of being a shitter. Pete did not accuse me of being a shitter. Pete even said that I wasn't a shitter. Pete even said if I wasn't a shitter. Randy is the enemy, not Pete. Randy is the enemy, not Pete."

Feeling better?

Note: Randy is MUCH bigger and meaner than me!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
Prod -

NICE POST Da-Dweeb.

Thanks prod, glad you enjoyed the poem!

And no worries, I kind of assumed that was the case. I have to schedule about an hour a day just to keep up on this thread as it is.

Part of me wonders if I shouldn't do haiku summaries of Jensen's posts...
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 25, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
Thanks for that Richard I really appreciate your taking the time to write that, and do so, so evocatively!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
Thanks for the responses, guys. Guess I managed a non-rant for a change.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
Usually i don't read your posts as they are simply too long but i got through that one. pretty cool.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
Did 5 posts or so just get deleted?

I think they did. Any idea whose they were?
nah000

Mountain climber
Calgary
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
thanks jaybro for a perceptive question, and madbolter1 for an evocative answer.

just when i thought this thread had gone the way of the politico threads and there was nothing left but arguing with LEB-like characters, something worth reading crops back up.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
It looks like Mr. Pottymouth's stuff got deleted.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
Geez, Dimitri - why did you delete all your posts???
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
Not me Pete. My account was hacked years ago and that person is messing with my account again. I don't delete my posts.

Edit: Many posts from years ago in this thread were written by the person(s) that have hacked my account here. Weak!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
Maybe he read them and saw how crazy he sounded? I have a general rule that I try to check in with to keep myself on a decent path. If I have the thought that more than 2 people are a holes in one day that perhaps I am the one who is the a hole? Time to do a reality check and make sure that I am being a decent person when that happens.. It ain't always easy...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Meaty, that sucks. Whoever is messing with you really is a wanker.
Meaty

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Ain't no thang Gary, I can deal.

Edit: See, one more post of mine gone!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
Meaty, Did you write all those crazy posts or was that the hacker?
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 25, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
I wanna get hacked!
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
Hey Jaybro,

Only a "fully qualified" teacher could ask a question like that in this thread. Thank you, and thanks also to Richard for an excellent response.
I was contemplating giving up on this thread, but deep down I'm a WOS whore! Carry on !!


Cracko
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
I call BS. You have not changed your password in years? And not complained about being hacked to the admin?

What's your password, maybe I can help...

Prod.

PS. I do beliene that you are not one of the shitters though.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 25, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
I gotta say Richard, thanks for that. I know it's hard because of how much vitriol your detractors bring, but when you take the high ground and only address your experiences, your writing is phenomenal. You don't need to lower yourself to adressing the negativity- we can all see it for what it is. That was a good read.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
Holy shit!!

FINALLY

Something actually worth reading on this crapfest of a thread.

Richard.. Awesome post .. awesome climb.

EPIC!

Dude you endured..ENDURED.

Your post inspired me. This climb inspires me.

screw anyone who thinks WOS was in poor form.

There is no better form than what you just wrote about.

hmmm

freeeeeedom baaby!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
I'm inspired by your responses. Seriously, in just a few hours you guys have helped me "get over it" to a very significant extent by encouraging me to really get back in touch with what it's all about. This fighting-the-fight business has gotten increasingly old! I think I needed the catharsis of getting things summed up that way one time. Thank you. I mean it.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:55pm PT
Madbolter, that's an excellent piece of writing. You convey a lot there. I was glued to every word. I'd love to hear something like this in Ammon's film. It touches the essence of climbing and cuts straight through to why people do this.

Thank you Jaybro, for posing the question.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 25, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
A great post in every way, Richard. It calls to mind the greater part of the book, and reminds me of everything I liked about it.

Edit: Oh, by the way, see my PM if you get the chance!
mud

Trad climber
CO
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:03am PT
MB, thanks.
I think all along folks just wanted a TR.
Photo's would be awesome too.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:06am PT
ditto .....

Let me see....

Two people climb an aid route at their limit

Other people who never climbed it don't approve

People that haven't climbed it attack the FA party in a heinous way rather than discussing with the FA party directly

Sh*tloads of speculation and 2nd, 3rd etc hand accounts follow

2nd Ascent actually takes place

Tic toc tic toc.....
Mimi

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:30am PT
This is beyond shame!

Bwana spills his guts and you suck ups bow down and lap it.

"People that haven't climbed it attack the FA party in a heinous way rather than discussing with the FA party directly." This is total crap. This statement exemplifies the sheer ignorance of the general audience.

Meaty is one of the few people that was there at the time and witnessed the event. He now has to defend himself because he was falsely accused of shitting on the ropes, when in fact, he would be one of the heroes had he joined that party.

You people are f*#king clueless. These guys were an incompetent joke and continue to try and dupe the endless stream of clowns who blindly heap praise upon them.

Oh, and Steve says thanks for answering IQ #1.

That you were heckled afterwards throughout CA had everything to do with your bogus self-promotion. Of course, you would retreat to the Quarry, aka, the Crucible of Greatness. And the Secret Bathook Cave hidden deep inside Wawona Dome was surely a source of comfort to you.

Since you've finally decided to open up for us here at ten till midnight, would you care explaining what you meant when you said that you 'learned about dimpling on the Sea' after you had obviously already mastered that (though this is still controversial)?

And we really have to know since this question's been hanging for a long time....knowing what you thought that you didn't know then now, would you have done anything differently?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:41am PT
Mimi, it's over.


Work to make amends, here. It's not too late.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:54am PT
This is CLASSIC:

Summary:

Gunkie ask's a question, 6 years is gets answered.

We have Mr/Mrs Weak Sauce(Steve/Mimi) talk'n sh#t the entire time about a route that either one of them has never climbed.

Mr. Weak Sauce blows his load in her mouth and she gobbles is up as the scripture. And he claims to have "NEVER ENHANCED" anything on the rock. Mrs. Weak Sauce is riding his coat tails and he's living in the past like Uncle Rico. Dreaming of being a millionaire with a hot tub and hot chicks.

Mrs. Weak Sauce continues to attack others who have "been there" and those who have knott. Yet the only climbing she's probably been capable of doing is up and down a bunk bed.

We have the Canadian ASSassin who stepped down yet is still trying to maintain his role in this motion picture documentary.

There are a few sideshows, and now Werner and Deucy are in the mix. Accusations flying left and right.

PO wall was contrived, yet nobody cared about "bird" carving the rock..... why? he was the man.

Mr/Mrs Weak Sauce have yet to do the route and will NEVER do the route so it's funny as hell to listen to the slander. Classic.

I'm hoping this thread goes beyond the "death to republican's" thread. It's high-larious.

Who gives a sh#t to sh#t on the ropes. That's funny too. It's funny no one until 2011 repeated the route. Yet..... according to the gospel of Weak Sauce the line is "light duty".

This is a stellar mini-series in progress "As the pecker turns"...... or was it RURPS?

Uncle Rico Weak Sauce, regardless if the coach put you in during the 4th quarter you still would have never gone "pro".

Get over your self righteous candy ass. You think you wrote the gospel of climbing with your attitude. We all need to bow down to Weak Sauce.

And mimi, I seem to have dropped some gear, could you be so kind as to pick it up...... It's right BLOW ME!!!
Mimi

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:17am PT
BASE1361, hahaha, you really need to raise your game stepping into this one. Add another one to the Lover's column. Your opinion of us having an opinion is well, uh, opinionated. But hey, that's why we're all here isn't it?

These photos are some of my favorites, taken from the wos website. Bwana, since you're getting all misty, would you do it just the same if you had another try? I wonder how Ammon and Kait's gear list compares. What did they shave, more than a month off the repeat? So it took a week to get to the top of P2 because that effort was 'erased' and 39 past that for a total of about 46 days; some action packed, some much less so. For a largely low angle slab.



Even down to the five bolt belays?
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:23am PT
mimi you are boring.

move on.
dipper

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:24am PT
I think sad is more fitting.
Mimi

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:34am PT
And three more skip down Lover's Lane. And throw themselves into the Wishing Well. Well, well, well.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:38am PT
You people are f*#king clueless. These guys were an incompetent joke and continue to try and dupe the endless stream of clowns who blindly heap praise upon them.


Mimi: She Just Knows
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:44am PT
And Mimi, I'm just saying I find your posts boring. Lacking interesting content.

That's all.

Cheers. =)
Mimi

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:45am PT
Seriously, no one has studied this story more than me and my friends. Sorry you're so bummed out about it, stinky. Maybe you should simply ignore it since it irks you so. And you certainly can skip my posts or activate the ignore feature. Lover.

That's okay, jfs. You're free to noodle around in disapproval as much as you care to.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:18am PT
lol. Well Mimi, that kinda made me laugh at least.

And MB - that was a great write-up. Thanks for that.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:21am PT
Stellar post, Richard!

I wish you could spend more time writing about your experiences on this routes and your other routes and less time responding to people who are deaf to anything you say and not going to change their minds about anything.

I don't always read long posts, but I read this one twice.

Jaybro, I really appreciate such a perceptive question, and I'm happy to take a stab at answering. I'll also try to keep it (fairly) short. lol

Mostly the route was grim. It wasn't fun. Ammon has talked before about the "tedious" nature of the hooking. It's hard to describe how the juxtaposition of the "sameness" and the terror works. We were scared all the time. I, personally, don't think I ever fully got my ankle out of my mind. It hurt all the time, the whole route, and it wasn't properly flexible. So just moving in the aiders was a constant reminder of the potential of yet more pain to come. And each fall seemed worse to me because my mind was screaming: "Watch the ankle!" Fortunately, aside from scrapes and bruises, the other falls didn't exact a steeper price.

That said, however, the sheer beauty of that slab is impossible to fully describe! It SHINES! It GLOWS! It catches all different sorts of light and takes on those colors. We were back and forth on the main water streak, and it flowed until mid-afternoon that year. And it caught the light and really glowed. And the wall is RIPPLED in a way you don't see from the meadow or the ground. It's like you are slowly moving up these shining waves of perfectly-polished rock, glassy smooth in many areas.

It teams with life. The swallows (I enjoyed, Mark hated) are like little jet fighters, and the peregrine falcons are beyond amazing as they stoop down the wall taking those guys out! Several times they flew by almost arm's reach away! There are spiders and little red mites everywhere. It's like you're immersed in this ecosystem, and being that long in it you come to feel a part of it. We belonged. We LIVED there. This wasn't "getting up" a wall. This was living there... being there.

Another thing that's hard to describe is that even belaying on that route is intense. So, there's no mental rest whether you're leading or belaying. The falls launch you, and you get launched quite a bit! You get banged up just getting launched into the anchor so much. And you empathize with what the leader is going through. So, the thing slowly drains you of the will to continue. It's relentless, whether you're leading or belaying. As I said, it mostly felt grim.

But I actually found the hooking itself profoundly interesting. The flakes are SO tiny that you FEEL the subtle differences in them more than see the differences. You start to get a FEEL for what's got a better chance of holding. It's like caressing the rock gently to detect its minute secrets. I can imagine how others would find this unappealing or just tedious. Like: try this... fall; try that... fall; try the other... move on. But we found that if we slowed down and really FELT the rock, we did better.

Another thing that you wouldn't initially think about is the drilling itself. When you are top-looping a hook flake the size of a dime, imagine the outward pull, the not-good sort of pressure on the flake. Once you've gotten yourself positioned, your heels together and your toes wide to make a triangulated stance, you don't MOVE! I mean you don't move a muscle from the waist down. So, imagine drilling now. You arch your back away from the wall, barely balanced, reach as high overhead as you can (make the effort count). You want to POUND on that drill holder, because every flake you're on is a ticking time-bomb, and you want OFF of it! But you can't! POUNDING on the drill holder like normal causes far too much lower-body movement. And your lower body has to be STILL. So, you're hitting that drill holder with, like, 1/4 force. So every bolt or rivet takes so much longer than it should. Your feet go to sleep. Then your lower legs. Then your calves and thighs start cramping. Your lower back is hurting from the arch in it. The pain, honestly, gets intense! So, when you finally get the drilled placement in (IF you do without falling yet again), you have to hang there for at least fifteen minutes just getting functional again. That tiny piece of metal IN the wall is Heaven in the sea of hooking. And it's a mental TRAUMA to move off of it onto that next micro-flake. Terror, rest, terror. Rinse and repeat.

We didn't drill unless we couldn't find something to hook. We weren't just slapping in holes when we got scared. The only thing about our drilling that the rock didn't dictate was whether or not we put in a bolt or rivet. So, we were intentionally trying to, as the Bird said, "Keep the commitment level high." And, because we KNEW that we didn't know quite where the bar of "commitment level" OUGHT to be, our goal was to keep ourselves as utterly terrified as possible. So, we intended the route to feel grim to us. We weren't seeking to have fun. We were seeking to know what we were made of. I don't mean that to sound grandiose. I'm just saying that we didn't do that route for the typical reasons people do routes.

And I think that's one of the reasons why the particular nature of the defamation has been so painful over the years. It's not just that we didn't do ANY of what we've been accused of. It's that our accusers have seemed to project THEIR motivations for climbing such a route onto us. And we just didn't have some of the typical motivations. We went up there intending to terrorize ourselves, and "success" for us each day was rapping back to the bivy each night completely drained.

During the three-day storm at the top of the slab, we started having the same nightmares. In our dreams we would climb and climb and climb. For days. Yet the summit keep receding. So we would rappel and rappel. But the ground would recede away. So, we would give up and try to climb and climb again. But the summit would recede away. On and on. Night after night. A month into it, we were mentally maxed out in a way I have never experienced. And after that three-day storm, we almost bailed. It was mighty close. But we just kept thinking of the price we had paid thus far, and we just couldn't bring ourselves to start down. We kept thinking that if we could get into the Overseer cracks, we could make it to Aquarian.

We had always planned to end up in Aquarian wall, because our scoping efforts had revealed that there was only overhanging blankness from the top of the Overseer cracks to Truck Stop or any other features straight up. And when we got up there, we saw that our scoping was confirmed. By then we were actually a bit worried that we might find some tiny crack systems leading up, because by then we were really ready to get into Aquarian. Fortunately, nothing presented at the top of the Overseer cracks. We were DONE. The slab had just kicked the crap out of us.

When we reached the top, it was totally anti-climactic. No real sense of triumph. No sense of "we kicked ass" or anything like that. And we hadn't walked in more than a month, so even hiking out was a struggle.

And I really remember something strange from the hike out!

As we were hiking the Falls trail, we encountered a few girls. The looked STRANGE, man! I mean, women are built SO differently from men, and we had only see each other for 39 days. We got so mentally accustomed to seeing only the male form (no homo!) that that was "normal." And I was actually STARING at those girls, not in lust, but in AWE... just thinking, "Wow! That is something DIFFERENT!" Ever since then I've had a whole new appreciation for just how women are built. I don't mean that to sound seedy. I mean that they are just wonderful, and I'm so glad that we aren't all built like men. lol

After the ascent, the "persecution" set in for real. It was everywhere we went. We couldn't go to a climbing area in SoCal (except the Quarry) where people didn't recognize us and either catcall or yell obscenities at us. Sometimes groups would gather around to "have their say." All the while, we were thinking, "Wow, it sure seemed hard to US. It really isn't like they are saying it is. But perhaps we really ARE just complete losers."

And that self-doubt is what motivated us to try things like the Sea and Intifada. Now our critics say that we were all about self-promotion, but that wasn't it at all. We needed to KNOW if we were really as lame as we were being told. And as we saw that we weren't, we became DEFIANT! The objectives facts of what we did up there can be DERIVED from the drilled placements. But there is a deep subtlety about the performance we were seeking from ourselves that cannot be objectively quantified that way, and it was that subtlety that we needed to KNOW about ourselves.

The game we played was simple: run it out on natural hooking (sans this or that offending crystal on an edge) until no hook flake presented. Then drill a bolt or rivet (depending upon what had gone before). DEAL with what the rock presented and take EVERY opportunity to use the TINIEST of features to get up without drilling. Only in that way could we ensure that the self-test was real. And for us, the self-test was all that mattered.

Well, you know me... a bit longer than might be hoped. What can I say?

How about a bit more? lol

I've emphasized the grimness, because that is what we were seeking, and we found more than plenty of it. But that route did define me in terms of my self-image, and I think in entirely positive ways. Ever since that climb, I've KNOWN who and what I am in a way that few people on Earth ever will. I think that's the great thing about climbing: the opportunity it presents you to KNOW YOURSELF to OWN YOURSELF. I got that from WoS and subsequent climbs. So, I look back now with great fondness on the route. We are inexorably linked. Whatever is there now is not "the route" to me. I don't care what has happened to it or what will happen to it. "The route" was what I experienced on it and how that experience changed me. And I think that everything else I've accomplished in life can be traced back to those 39 self-defining days. For better or worse, I am the person I am today because of "the route."
Mimi

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:48am PT
Riley, did you stop to consider that there may have been a good reason for such provocation? Of course, there are also examples of poor judgment in such situations. wos was not one of them.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:53am PT
I think that Mimi is pizzed off because God told them to grade the route A5--after letting them wear shirts that said "Bolt Masters"...
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:17am PT
2500!!!!

That's really all I have to say on this matter.
Bill Sherman

Mountain climber
Culver City, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:35am PT
Riley, if you want to borrow my copy I'd be more than happy to send it to you. I just picked one up off of Half.com a few weeks ago. It only took me about 2 hours to get through it.

I skipped the religious comments. You'll find they are neatly packaged in separate paragraphs outside of the climbing story. I'm a Jew but not a very good one at that. I rarely go to synagogue and I love bacon!

Richard, great post on what the climb meant to you.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:49am PT
Man, you nonclimbers,& Coz are hard on Mimi & Steve! Persecuting them, ostensibly for committing the crime of persecution of others. What sort of twisted projection scenario is that?
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:52am PT
Don't persecute ME for persecuting the persecutors! Persecutor.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:02am PT
Mimi just keeps throwing out the hate about a route that she has never climbed. It is pretty hard not to respond to that kind of bigotry... I think many of us can relate to those small minded tactics from our own little local bolt wars. Seems that usually the choppers are cowards that do their work on rainy days when no one is at the cliff, they usually don't admit to their deeds and usually talk a bunch of smack about how bad the bolters were but never own up to smashing hangers and leaveing the rock a battered mess...
Meaty

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:21am PT
Tradman, you describe exactly what John Bachar, Kurt Smith, and Dave Shultz (and a few others) did in Yosemite in the 80's.
Cowardly small minded chopping, sometimes at night, that left smashed hangers and battered rock. Oh......they cared so much about the rock!! Some climbs chopped multiple times in one summer and always in denial about their actions. The aftermath left behind in still there on a few climbs in the valley. And then the vandalism of property resulting in conviction in federal court in Fresno for a few players

What was that jive about persecution?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:59am PT
I was fishing around recently and I found this cover photo to an aid climbing text. Since John Middendorf posted a similar photo, I thought this a good time to post it up:


Anybody know this fellow? His name and what he's up to these days? Thanks.




P.S. Before he was a climber or even a caver, Dr. Piton was a fisherman of some prowess, who rarely but occasionally got skunked.

I seem to be fishing a lot these days. I have been dragging artificial lures through the water, using live bait, and casting wide nets. I might even have a hand grenade in my tackle box. I have a few fish in my life well already, and if you think you might be one of them, perhaps an email my way could convince me to practise catch and release. You might not want to find yourself gutted, stuffed and mounted on display.

Oi! Avoid more Shi-t and Poop.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:35am PT
Rich Albuschkat. Mike Corbett belaying. Lost Arrow Spire. Photo Credit: Chris Falkenstein
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:37am PT
Mrs. Weak Sauce writes
Seriously, no one has studied this story more than me and my friends.

You really NEED to get a life. How pathetic.

I can just see you and your "friends" spewing for 40 days and 40 nights for 30 years on this route that you have NEVER done nor will you and Mr. Self-RIghteous Weak Sauce never DO.

Never met ya but if this is your claim to life your a loser. Filled with hate anger.

How about you 2 drink a hot cup of shut the f*#k up and do the 3rd??



TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:45am PT
The pendulum has gained momentum and swung in the direction FAionistas.

In a matter of time it will swing back in the direction of the antagionistas.

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:08am PT
Mimi-

BASE1361, hahaha, you really need to r...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
Meaty:
Cowardly small minded chopping, sometimes at night, that left smashed hangers and battered rock. Oh......they cared so much about the rock!!

That gets right down to the crux of this issue IMO. Self policing serves an important function in rock climbing. Everyone has the right to chop, but they should climb the route first and be able to be upfront about it and explain why it was warranted.

When cowardly anonymous chopping takes place it indicates it is not about maintaining ethics but about the chopper's ego. And one of the worst things about it is it gives chopping a bad name in general. A lot of people are then going to think any chopping is BS. So in effect these cowardly choppers are having the opposites effect they intend. Instead of upholding tradition they are giving traditionalists a bad name.

Yosemite is a national park. We all have the same rights to it. So even though some of us might not have been there at the time (e.g. it was before my time) these issues effect all of us.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.

Oh, the sand keeps falling through the hourglass, and there's no way you're gonna slow it down... So STOP FORWARDING THAT CRAP TO ME.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZUImChHJE
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
I just got around to reading your route story Madbolter. Nice writing.

2 questions. Actually i question and 1 comment.

So, you're hitting that drill holder with, like, 1/4 force. So every bolt or rivet takes so much longer than it should.

That may explain why people talked about the constant sound of drilling?

As we were hiking the Falls trail, we encountered a few girls. The looked STRANGE, man! I mean, women are built SO differently from men, and we had only see each other for 39 days. We got so mentally accustomed to seeing only the male form (no homo!) that that was "normal." And I was actually STARING at those girls, not in lust, but in AWE... just thinking, "Wow! That is something DIFFERENT!" Ever since then I've had a whole new appreciation for just how women are built. I don't mean that to sound seedy. I mean that they are just wonderful, and I'm so glad that we aren't all built like men. lol

Now think about this quote in terms of Mimi.

Prod.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
Seriously, no one has studied this story more than me and my friends.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:45pm PT

I also enjoyed Richard’s account of the FA... some parallel experiences we went through up there.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
The Mimi has said repeatedly:

These guys were an incompetent joke

So how does this jive with these same guys doing an early ascent of the Sea, which was at the time considered "cutting edge" and still after probably 50+ ascents has a rep as one of the most sustained aid lines on the Capt.
GOclimb

Trad climber
Boston, MA
Aug 26, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Wow. Did Prod really say "Mellow Dramatic?"

Now there's a good name for a route somewhere...

Actually, that's a damn good description for the Taco in general.

SuperTopo: the Mellow Dramatic choice for rock-climbing forums

LOL

GO
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Richard, thanks for the inspiring tale! I'd go climbing with you any day. As for a few others posting here, I'd be scared to merely meet them.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
Just fanning the flames Coz. Bad, I know...

In real life, as you know,Mimi would kick most of these guy's asses. You'd prolly go a round or two, what with your longer reach 'n all....

Richard, thanks again for putting some reality into this.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
Mimi's just trolling and having fun getting reactions.

That's the conclusion I just reached. We've been trolled! This is one of the longest and most successful trolls on Supertopo.

Mimi and Steve have probably been giggling at us until they're blue in the face.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
I do not see anyone tarnishing their reputation that much just to troll... Unrealistic. i think they actually believe that they are richeous...
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 26, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
Hey Richard,

Beautiful post. Glad I checked in again.

I also wish to apologize for my insensitivity and for making fun of your situation and character. I have been thinking a bit about it.

I have always been attracted to slabs. I can very much relate that many things I really think are cool, are disdained by others. I remember Cantwell getting flack about Hall of Mirrors. I never understood the flack at all.

I could very much relate to your experience of confusion and surprise at all the vitriol that you received. While I have never experienced anything to that depth or length of time, I and probably all of us have been taken by surprise by some sudden criticism from an unexpected direction or unexpected person. The feeling for me is a sense of total confusion and loss.

My experiences of support and care and encouragement from climbing mentors, partners and the climbing community in general has been very important to me. It would be very painful if suddenly it seemed everyone was against me, or that no one at all could relate to me. It was bad enough when one partner decided he didn't want to climb with me anymore.

I am no longer surprised by the vitriol on supertopo or the internet in general, but many of the stories of old timers mercilessly denigrating others, do still take me aback. I am thankful that I have experienced very little of that during my years of climbing and adventuring.

I was thinking about why I have criticized you and not your antagonists. I think that despite my friendships with some "Valley Christians" as you put it, "Heathen" as I put it, I really can't relate to that behavior and so I have nothing constructive to say to them.

I can very much relate to looking at a slab and thinking, "I wonder what it is like up there? I wonder if I can figure it out? I wonder what it will do to me? I wonder if I am brave enough?"
Rudder

Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Last night I caught a Paul Newman movie I had never seen. The movie is WUSA, but the original title was ironically enough, A Hall of Mirrors. The dialogue was so amusing I thought to post it here:

""She speaks like an extremist, because she doesn't see the big picture. Now speaking as a communicator, in my opinion, there is deep confusion in the popular heart and mind. Explanation numbers are very big.

I mean I think it's great. It's uh, it's like a study in sheer existenial amorality.

I speak to the troubled heart.

You don't have enough talk and whisky to hide behind. You know better than they know. I can't believe you're such a bastard you've lost your humanity. I want you to tell me what's happening?!

He wants to know what's happening.

Somebody always raises that question.

You want to know what's happening? Dig, I'll tell you what's happening. How do the fish live in the sea? That's what's happening.

Look in the penny arcades, man. Look in the tacostands, that's what's happening.

Yeah, look in Walgreens.

Remain calm, all the important decisions have already been made.

You know, this cat, he's a athlete of perception. I'm gonna tell him what's happening. What's happening is that things are getting chilly. One by one the warm weather creatures are gonna topple dead with frozen eyelids. Creatures of the cold will proliferate. The air will become thin and difficult to breath.

Wow, that's great!

The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will be screwed.

I want an answer from you!

Wow, he's freaking out!

No! He's about to make a statement. Don't stop now, you are the voice of Christian witness in this slough of despond.

My god, you are an evil fool.

Well, you try waking up in a room full of turtles.

You're very good at special pleading but there are other people hurting besides you.

Yeah, there's YOU. I'm not even evil. What do you say, troops? Am I evil?

No, you're great!

You hear that you cornpone Christ. I'm just a drunk.

Well, that's too bad. But no value. But everyone else's life didn't change because you became a...

What do you know about the value of any life, you crippled freak? I mean drunks can be dirty but they don't leave a thick, smelly film of piety around them. I put it to you this creature is god's skunk. Arouse his conscience and he stinks.

It doesn't matter what I am. A human life is a gift. The muck of the earth was raised up to consciousness. Blood was made warm.

We know that. I mean, warm blood and gifts and human-ness. We all had that trip man. None of us could swing with it.

Sure that's over now anyway. Quit your job at the morgue.

These people don't understand you. But, I'm a moralist like you. I know your anguish and I got no right to deny it. So let me give you an alternative. Drop dead. Drop dead, while you are among friends.

Wow.

Tell it.

Now that's a valid alternative.

Well, you are all put down artists and you sure put him down.

Not at all. You know when someone says something that's a drag, I gotta try to say something that's a worse drag.

Oh Christ.

Wow.

That was a heavy scene man.

What was that all about?

You didn't have to cut him up like that.

Forget it.

Why did you have to be so mean?

Self defense... SELF DEFENSE.

You're as drunk as it gets aren't you.

That's right, and no moralizing twitch is gonna bleed all over me. God, I hate whiners, they're evil.

What do you want to eat?

I wouldn't want you to think by feeding me you were adding to the troubles of the world.

For god sake.

Cuz I can walk out any god damn time. I can walk out of anything. I know how it's done. You don't think I would?

You son of a bitch.

I'm gonna go out and put some people on.""
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
Cancer Boy

Trad climber
Freedonia
Aug 26, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Lady Macbeth: The raven himself is hoarse
That croaks the fatal entrance of Duncan
Under my battlements. Come, you spirits
That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here,
And fill me from the crown to the toe topful
Of direst cruelty!

MacBeth: To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

The Wolf: You guys look like... What do they look like, Jimmie?

Jimmie: Dorks. They look like a couple of dorks.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 26, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
http://compare.ebay.com/like/310336809895?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

$6.99 + $4.00 shipping.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 26, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
She should have died tomorrow
There would have been a time for such a word.








edit;
tomorrow? WTF was I thinking?
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Aug 26, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
Piton Ron, thanks for adding the beginning of the speech (but it's "hereafter")

Madbolter, thanks for that write-up.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Thanks for your write-up Madbolter.

I feel guilty and dirty for having read much of the negativity in the WoS threads, but I really appreciate and enjoy reading the from-the-heart sharing of your experience on the climb.

Thanks Jaybro for steering this into a positive direction! All that experience turning suffering into pleasure on the wide cracks has really paid off!
Gabe

climber
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
I liked it too mad one. The commitment sure sounds heavy like the load. You guys became lichen.

Your post would read well in the guide book next to your route.
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Aug 26, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
Enjoyed the write up Madbolter. Hats off to you guys for persevering.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:26am PT
"Mimi and Steve have probably been giggling at us until they're blue in
the face."

Who knew? LOL! Going toe to toe with these guys and their rabble has been nothing but fun.

Riles, I get your message, but hang in there man. Thanks for the support.

Would somebody please give me a good explanation why one must climb a route to have an opinion about it? I already made the argument for film, music, and sports critics.

These guys came on the ST touting their glory and demanding a position of respect. No way were we going to sit back and watch them dupe the unknowing crowd much less apologize. Snake oil salesmen. People who were there that season recognized this. This internet medium has allowed such open dialogue. What is wrong with trying to set the record straight when the FA initiated the whole thing? Now, the handful of detractors are viewed as the obsessed get a life losers.

Those of you that think we've been wringing our hands and angsting over this for so many years can rest assured it's been a laughing matter all along.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:31am PT
isnt laughing and trying to make someone feel bad about themselves just bullying? why would this make you laugh? this seems like it was a really big deal to the guys who put up the route.
Meaty

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:39am PT
Yeah Mimi, the obsessed are those two wankers.
How about that jerk Richard telling me I've been obsessed with WOS for 29 years!?
What a delusional pile of tripe he is! I surely don't give a sh#t about his climb, who repeats it, who shits on it..... etc. But I do have a problem being called one of the shitters/choppers.
When certain tools here call for violence towards me Richard is silent about it, but then claims I incited a riot in 1982? What a prick.
These two f*#kers have many duped here, shows what lemming they are.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:41am PT
Well for one, music, film, and professional sporting events are snippets of media intended to be observed by non-participants....Climbing is a sport for participation, which is why climbing movies are about as exciting as watching paint dry. Furthermore, a climbing route is put up to be climbed, by climbers. Not put up to be observed and criticised by non-climbers. Where a movie is created to be watched by a public widely ignorant of the nuts and bolts of moviemaking, and judged on it's validity and entertainment value by those participants (watchers of the movie), participants who can judge a route are those who've climbed it as that was the purpose of it's creation; to be climbed.

Any more "brain-busters?"
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:41am PT
karo, so we're supposed to blindly support bad players simply because we feel sorry for them? Because they were poorly prepared and suffered so because of it?

Kevin, not so. Do you think Steve or Charles' opinions are acceptable? Deucie's, Mussy's, Bill? Other wall climbers that were active at the time?!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:49am PT
karo, so we're supposed to blindly support bad players simply because we feel sorry for them? Because they were poorly prepared and suffered so because of it?

Black and white thinking. You use too broad of a brush. Based on your example, anyone on this thread who says anything remotely positive is now one of their followers. It gets tiresome hearing that. So then people go after you.

You don't support the climb. Fine. But you don't have to trash everyone who says anything even remotely positive.
Mimi

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:52am PT
It's tit for tat. We started out asking for clarification and it got ugly. Nothing's changed in that regard except now the route's been climbed and we'll finally have an accurate account.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:57am PT
These two f*#kers have many duped here, shows what lemming they are.

Good to know Ammon and Kait can be so easily had. And from the sound of the diving he took over nine days maybe lemmings would be willing to proffer an honorary title.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:57am PT
It's tit for tat.

Not what I'm talking about. You go after everyone who says anything even remotely positive about Mark and Richard, or the climb.

Its lines like this..

This is beyond shame! Bwana spills his guts and you suck ups bow down and lap it.

So Jaybro and Russ are "suck ups" ? They liked what Richard wrote.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:57am PT
...and you were given verbose clarification repeatedly, you just obstinately choose to ignore it.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:02am PT
not certain i agree with that, ben

but i also don't know if it f*#kin matters at all

it is after all a 9 pitch variation that gets climbed every 30 yrs or so




























big whoop...
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:08am PT
Indeed.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:11am PT
Regarding Mimi, I suggest that the best thing to do is leave her be. Mimi is practically a meme by now (A mimi meme?) and the fact is that nobody is able to reach her. So maybe some PONY will be able to reach her.

I would put forth at this point, that you can't fight evil with evil. This is just where Mimi is at, and the best thing that we can do for everyone's sake is tolerate and love her.

So you know what, Mimi?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:19am PT
Yeah Mimi, the obsessed are those two wankers.
How about that jerk Richard telling me I've been obsessed with WOS for 29 years!?
What a delusional pile of tripe he is! I surely don't give a sh#t about his climb, who repeats it, who shits on it..... etc. But I do have a problem being called one of the shitters/choppers.
When certain tools here call for violence towards me Richard is silent about it, but then claims I incited a riot in 1982? What a prick.
These two f*#kers have many duped here, shows what lemming they are.

Maybe Barton, but you don't have anyone duped here. Everyone knows just what kind of person you are.


My account was hacked years ago and that person is messing with my account again. I don't delete my posts.

Edit: Many posts from years ago in this thread were written by the person(s) that have hacked my account here. Weak!

I do not believe you. Liar? Multiple personality disorder?
dipper

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 03:21am PT
MeMe, er, Mimi wrote:

"...now the route's been climbed and we'll finally have an accurate account."

It appears her sense of what is important in life is significantly distorted.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 27, 2011 - 07:29am PT
Mimi, Climbs are not movies. If you bash one without being able to climb it you look like an ass. If you call the FA team incompetent fools when their climb is too hard for YOU to climb you look like a pathetic asshat. The Only way that one can prove that a climb is over rated or over protected or whatever is to climb it. If you hike the thing in your Tevas you have a right to downgrade it or whatever. You still may look like an ass but you have earned that right. If you go public with the trash talk about a route that you have not climbed and most likly can not climb then you do in fact come accross as a pathetic asshat.

You should know that climbers have tons of silly unwritten rules many of which make little sense yet this rule does in fact have merit... It is the good old classic. Put up or shut up!
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 09:52am PT
Is it irony that DMT, the writer of one of the best series of poop threads, is calling out the shitters? Or just a cyocoprophliac obsession?

Prod.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:01am PT
We just found 3 big piles of bear poop in our back yard this morning.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:05am PT
Serve it up on toast, a lot of people on this post could use the protein.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:06am PT
Mostly berries Jim.

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Good, they could also use help with their bowel movements. I'm in Boulder, heading out to Sleeping Beauty in Boulder Canyon.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:22am PT
Gotta work today. Riding tomorrow.

Have fun!

Prod.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:44am PT
Just one thing bothers me about all this; what's a "tat"?

Off to climb, somebody's gotta
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:58am PT
meaty is clearly demented as GC points out.....

but the queen of the hour is of course, mimi. all i can say is poor steve, but based upon how high and might he thinks he is, they deserve eachother.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Mimi writes,

"These guys came on the ST touting their glory and demanding a position of respect. ... What is wrong with trying to set the record straight when the FA initiated the whole thing?"

That is patently untrue. All you have to do is scroll to the beginning of this thread to see that. Mark and Richard came on to defend themselves. Five years later they have finally succeeded. Good on them and Ammon to right a quartery-century of wrongs.

"Now, the handful of detractors are viewed as the obsessed get a life losers."

Well, that bit is certainly true.

Meaty - you are a fool if you expect anyone to believe that your Supertopo account was hacked, and that you - Dimitri Barton - have not written each and every one of the words as Meaty, including the ones you so cowardly deleted yesterday or the day before. Your writing has been entirely consistent throughout, there has been no change before or after the alleged hacking.

If you're going to rant, at least have the balls to stand behind what you write and not delete it. You're a pathetic coward.

Emphatically concur with Granite climber regarding Mr. Barton, and with hawkeye regarding Dimitri and Mimi.
Meaty

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
Pete. If you look at the comments from many years ago even Fatty (i think) noticed and a few others saying "are there two meaty's??" and such. Many posts from back then I DID NOT write, same from the other day and the hacker deleted a few of them.
The fact is someone did make there way into my account and deleted posts including some from the other day, and made posts. But obviously you're just not bright enough to notice, so sad for you, f*#king moron.

I stand by what a write and that includes my feeling that I could care less what you think about me or anything else for that matter. You're full of hype and innuendo calling me a lunatic and expect what from that? Respect? You're just another supertopo wanker.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
I don't know, MeatTree doesn't seem like the type to pull any punches and some of the deleted posts were pretty benign, compared to the rest. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Innocence until proven guilty. This whole controversy started because the detractors assumed the climb was a botch without having climbed it, i.e. assumed guilty with no direct evidence.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Hmmmm, Meaty - I almost half believe you. I did my best to bait you, and there was only a single F-bomb. I guess time will tell.

However, please answer me how your personal email account wrote my personal email account, and you told me to f*#k off?

Edit: I just read what buddy wrote below, and I see he now deleted it, and I thought about it some more. I have two serious problems with you saying that your account was hacked, and that all of the words written by the Meaty account are not the words of Dimitri Barton. You tell us that the posts deleted by you yesterday or the day before were not written by you. I don't believe you.

Firstly, you say that Fattrad wondered a long time ago if there were two Meatys. Accordingly, you would have known long ago that your account was hacked, and would have taken appropriate measures to stop it. But evidently you didn't, and you tell us the hacking continued. This makes no sense.

Secondly, how did you get your account hacked, and who did it? What would be their motivation? It's almost impossible in this day and age for anyone with half a brain to have their account hacked. In fact, you may be the ONE AND ONLY PERSON on the McTopo forum to have ever claimed to have had his account hacked.

How could this have happened? Your arguments lack logic and you do not appear credible. Please provide a reasonable explanation, and I will be happy to provide a reasonable apology.

Thanks.
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
"This whole controversy started because the detractors assumed the climb was a botch without having climbed it, .... "


No you're wrong as with many of the rest of you since you were not even there.

It started the minute they got to the base and started climbing.

Why do think they even had a big meeting with Richard and Mark.
Meaty

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Pete, you sure are full of delusional speculations. Why do you always ask stupid questions full of insults and expect and answer.

Edit: Again, more speculation from you, I noticed someone making comments using my account years ago, so did many others you dim bulb.
And more delusional questions from you? Why am I not surprised?
How to you suppose one is gonna explain the actions of someone else hacking their account?
You're just being a fool, eh?

I sent those messages to you, and they weren't nasty, just the truth.
If you don't believe me so what! Just look back at the comments here from years ago for the proof you idiot.

I don't expect nor want an apology from an as#@&%e like you, f*#k you. But I do expect more speculative postulations and all the drivel that comes from a dork like you.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 27, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
Meaty, I rephrased my question in an edit above. My questions are neither delusional nor speculative.

Please tell us all how your account got hacked, how your email sent nasty messages to mine, and most significantly, how you never noticed your account got hacked years ago, and allowed it to continue.

I don't believe you. I consider your claim that your account got hacked to be rubbish. Please convince me otherwise.

Dimitri Barton - please answer my rephrased question above. Thanks.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 27, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
You're right Werner. Poor choice of words on my part. I understand the concern when guys with no El Cap experience show up, with a LOT of gear. But to go beyond concern to chopping the route etc. the detractors should have an airtight case against them, which they didn't and still don't IMO.
Meaty

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
Ha, ha, ha! Not only do I know someone created another account, but someone also got my password for this account, used my e-mail, sent loads of dumb emails, posted tripe, and deleted those posts along with some of mine.....Russ.
Good bet it was the guy with the animal nickname.....Russ.

Funny how the dual account is now gone and this thread was scrubbed of all the posts years ago when some asked how it was possible another account was formed with exactly the same name, Meaty. Obviously an inside job, the only way that could've happened.Who scrubbed this thread?? Must be the cowards that just deleted their post under another phony handle "Meaty."..............COWARDS!!




EDIT: WOW! Looks like way more posts than I originally thought have been scrubbed. The WOS POS team has gone out of their way to revise history, One post from Werner that defended me is gone. Once he realized that Meaty was me and Randy Wenzel and the WOS chumps were accusing me of chopping and shitting he said it wasn't me that sh#t on the ropes, the cowards have removed that post and much much more. Clearly the WOS movie crew and revisionist historians are afraid of the truth. COWARDS!!!!!

So obviously they've gotta scrub the thread to revise history because of the upcoming movie: The Cricle Jerk of the Wannabes.

BTW I have a recording of Punk Roy singing the Wannabe song at the Mutants apartment on 1st street! Too funny!
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Aug 27, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
What about the people that pulled the rope tight and cut it, sending it window shading up the rock.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Aug 27, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
Paul, I don't want to get all mushy, but thank you very much for the apology. I never felt like you were a hater. I'm not even sure how to respond. Like "apology accepted" seems too terse, but I really don't want to make a big deal out of it either, because your making fun wasn't a big deal.

Just want to acknowledge the class you demonstrated and thank you for it! No worries from my end at all. Best to you, bro.

Much appreciate so many of the other sentiments expressed also.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
Folks, folks. Give it a rest. Mimi meme is of course undeniably correct about everything she has to say, because:
Meaty

climber
Aug 27, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
Sorry, no rest, especially for the wos pos team and their pals here on ST scrubbing this thread of many, many posts.
Looks like they're afraid of the truth that they've been using another account with my handle............COWARDS AND LIARS!!

Time for Pete to go crawl back up the as#@&%e he was born from.

A huge gap is now evident, from Dec.28, 2007, a post from Tom at 6:56pm, to Jul.15, 2008, a post from Peyton Hassinger at 10:29 am.

This is where someone was using an account with my handle posting all sorts of bullsh#t. Also in this missing gap of posts were a few post from Werner saying very clearly it wasn't me that sh#t on those ropes.

Pretty obvious the coward WOS POS team is afraid everyone might find out they trolled using my handle and also hacked my account.

You wanted some proof Pete, well f*#k you, there it is you kunt.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 01:50am PT
Come again, Cap'n? I'm not reading you clearly.
roy

Social climber
NZ -> SB,CA -> Zurich
Aug 28, 2011 - 04:12am PT
"I don't want to bother you much with what happened to me personally," he began, showing in this remark the weakness of many tellers of tales who seem so often unaware of what their audience would like best to hear; "yet to understand the effect of it on me you ought to know how I got there, what I saw, how I went up that river ..." Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

Very nicely told perspective Madbolter - thanks, Roy
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:31am PT
Ahh...all is well, the Drama Queen Thread marches on.
Meaty

climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
You're not too good at the trolling game, schmuck.

Just wait till folks find out who that third chpper/shitter is, they're gonna sh#t in their shorts because so many supertopo wankers praise him and have even attended his slide shows!!lol!!!
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 28, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
30 years from now Wings of Steel will STILL be an El-Capitan A5 hooking test-piece, AND there will be nary a mention of any out-dated pirates named "steveandmimi"...



Now THAT is when this silly issue will be laid to rest
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
A5 hooking test-piece

And you did the second ascent.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
coz,
donini actually did do a new route on El Cap so don't get all uppity.






Of course since then there have been several ice ages that have altered the face substantially removing all the camalots made of bone that he left fixed.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
Hey Meaty, what the heck is going on, there are two meatys posting now, "Meaty" and "Meaty." the latter having the location "shitrope ca".

Incidentally, if you say it wasn't you, I believe you. And it really does suck to be falsely accused. Regardless I don't think that naming and shaming the rope crappers is at this point any kind of priority for the FA team. Just for the spectators, I think.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
No Coz, I never did a new El Cap route. I did a couple of established routes to get the skills down then went out and found some less crowded venues.




GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:06pm PT

Those of you that think we've been wringing our hands and angsting over this for so many years can rest assured it's been a laughing matter all along.


Prod

Trad climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
Any word on when the SA artilce is coming out?

Prod
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
Coz, you're talking like a moron. You are very eager to attack in any way you can anyone who disagrees with you. A forum is meant for all different viewpoints. An ad hominen attack on my climbing record makes you sound like an idiot.
My remark about this being a drama queens thread seems to have hit home.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
Prod here, aka Drama Queen lover...

Hey Jim,

Did you ever get into all aid lines, or was Aid a last resort to a natural free line for you?

Cheers,

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
I discovered that I really didn't enjoy aid like I don't dig slab climbing. Aid was always a last resort and I've tried to pick lines with a lot of free climbing. Everyone has different likes and dislikes.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Yeah I never pictured you as an "Aid" climber.

Hope you got in some good climbing here in Boulder.

Prod.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
Ammon said this in May 2005


I heard they were Jehovah's Witnesses... same difference, right?

I also heard the route was a rivet ladder and put up in very poor style.


Prod.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
I think Jim may be mincing words. If you hang on the mastadon tendon that is a form of aid!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
coz, jim's point, and it isn't a trivial one, is that this thread has generated a jillion melodramatic responses all about a nine pitch variation to the aquarian wall. he thinks its a tempest in a teapot.

meanwhile, rad stuff that happens outside of the valley is often ignored on the forum.

i guess the proper response to jim's argument would be, that what happens on el cap is more significant than what happens on any other local cliff we could name, because it was and remains probably the single most important arena for the technical wall skills that then get applied in other, wilder and higher places. so if, after thirty years, we were suddenly to see the emergence of a strain of wall climbing that emphasized really difficult and mostly boltless hooking on slabs that could then go out into the big wide world, wings of steel could, in some dim but not impossible future, be historically significant for the bigger world of mountaineering.

that's not my argument, but someone could make it. i can't imagine a future in which marathon hooking on slabs becomes a big part of climbing culture, but then i never thought bouldering would become popular either.

you guys are both getting old and cranky. this thread seems to have that effect on all of us.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
Hey, it's starting to heat up again maybe now is the time to jump in and throw some punches?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
guido, that a self-portrait?

didnt know you were maori, heh
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
Yep, that's me. 100% Maori and mean as hell. Keeping the weight on as Donini and I have a couple tag team matches coming up soon.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
The italian-maori team vs team drama queen.


With a piece of the proceeds going to buy cragman some grownup pants.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
Coz, I'm an idiot and a moron for using those words in reference to you- you are neither. Let's just continue to disagree in a more collegial way.
Your on Guido- Piton Ron gets to referee.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 28, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
I need one of those striped T shirts.

If I wear this one Ammon would just try to steal it.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 28, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^that's a lot of leather
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
I tried Coz but clearly you are not emotionally up to backing off and considering other sides of an issue. As for the tough guy talk, don't underestimate me son.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
Good grief Coz

Lay off of Jim.

For as long as I've ever known Jim I always have the highest and utmost respect for him.

And the respect has nothing to do with climbing either .....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
Gee... I don't know, what's the appropriate attire- diapers.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
pretty sad if some of the collateral damage from this pos thread is the two of you going at it.

ironic, too, because from what i know, the two of you have both been pretty invested in reaching out.

donini was one of the old farts at the aac trying to bring in the younger tigers.

and i've seen coz working with the current gen of gym stars.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
My last word. Coz, my comments have been about, what I consider, the drama queen quality in this thread. I have not commented once on the climbing involved. I used the words idiot and moron when I saw your ad hominen comments. I apologized for those terms which seem mild for this thread. Your vitriolic response was unexpected.

edit. The fact that I don't think the climbing world's sun rises and sets on el cap is my own opinion which you dont share- so be it.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
Laughed out loud at your apology, Coz! Uh-oh, Jim promised his last word. Let's see if he keeps it. ;)
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
if that old eyetalian f*#ker had done nothing after latok, that would've been enough.

all the way up and then all the way down as a team of basically unknowns at a point in which "alpine-style" was just coming into view. i have a hard time thinking of that team as "media darlings." not a lot of pub for any of those folks. hard to name a less appreciated crew, outside of a few circles. and one of the most important climbs of that era.

my guess is that most of the st crowd didnt know donini when he started posting here except as a marginal, old-skool yos name.

you two need to get a room or a rope.


what little contact ive had with you both makes me think you guys are a lot alike.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Aug 28, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
I noticed in this photo that Ammon M. is wearing elbow pads.
Can't say as I've ever seen THAT before.
Presumably, gear for "technical" slab climbing ... er, slab "wipe outs".

COOL!! Is all I gotta say about that!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
You'll have to read his story, sac - he tells it all. It's a great story, you're gonna love it, and it's going to sell a ton of magazines. Proud ascent!

And Ammon ain't done yet. Wait'll you see what he's up to next, if not now - he's in a whole new world. YAAAARRRR!!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 28, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
Damn, there's some f*#king voodoo in this thread.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:55am PT
jebzuz cripes, coz is a total dickwad!



oh wait-
did i just type that or was my account hacked?



not to worry coz,
as i have never done an el cap FA, you therefor need not worry that in my opinion, you are indeed (at least acting like?) a drama queen and an idiot, and a dickwad too- see how convenient that is? i just love having no street cred...


























get over yourself already, here online you are just another prick, same as everyone else, or hadn't you figured that out yet?




EDIT
oh and btw-
per your earlier post:

You can attack me anyway you like Jim, there is no right or wrong on this forum, only guys pretending to be something their not.

...

I suggest if you want to call me an idiot and a moron you do it to my face, tough guy.

their = possessive modifier
they're = contraction of they & are

if you wanna be told your schmart, try not to mess the easy stuff up!
(so ... t h e r e)

http://www.theretheyretheir.com/
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 03:56am PT
*Hugs Matt and Jim and Coz*

Of course, as a direct result of this thread, I've joined my college wall climbing organization, so maybe some good has come of it all as well. Guess we'll see if I can still do this stuff at my age, hm?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:17am PT
DMT, that's not Meaty notice the period. Let's just call him/her period.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:24am PT
What's that? Meaty's having his period?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:25am PT
Do you feel better now, Scott?
Handjam Belay

Gym climber
expat from the truth
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
WOW, this is a drama queen thread.

But really, calling Donini a know nothing hack is crazy.

I have put up new pitches on El Cap, hard ones between Aurora and Scorched Earth.

I wouldn't have the stones to speak if Donini were at the campfire...

Much respect.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
ELBOW pads man!

EL- BOW pads!!

Wheew!
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Aug 29, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
ELBOW pads man!

EL- BOW pads!!

Wheew!

THAT's RIGHT!!! And when I didn't think I needed them anymore I took a whipper and split my elbow open... needles to say, I tagged them up and put them back on. YUP, I'm a puussy, haa haa.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
COZ = El Cap Drama Queen

Scott COZgrove never had any credit with me. Once again he shows his Ego bloated head and looses more in the community.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
Any word on when the article is coming out?

Prod.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Aug 29, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
Ammon,

Bad ass dude,

BAD-ASS

Nice work.

A.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
At this point I think we should make sure that everybody has a loaded gun, turn out the lights and let fly.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
And a scatter gun!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
first we got meaty and pass the poop tube pete in a slap fight, then we got coz and donini in a pissing contest, now we got gun play. wtf?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
Fatty, I've seen Piton Ron in action, you better start digging a DEEP foxhole.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
Fattrad says
Aug 29, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
I'd out shoot that Piton Ron any day.

Hot damn!
I think we have a benefit shootout event.
Pistols??

I'll give the same offer as Pat.
What is the purse?

How about my private range just outside Vegas so we can get a bunch of attendees?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
12?

20?

.410?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Barrel length? Choke?

Hey Ron, you do black powder?
I recently had contact with the great-grandnephew of Medal of Honor awardee Willie Dixon, who made that .9 mile shot in 1874.

He saw my Sharpes and says he wants to turn me to the "dark side", cooks up a black powder .45-70 550gr load that chugs downrange like a freight train.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
C'mon Fatty, your hi-cap Smith against my eight shot .45 , and if I win the first round I will go to the six shot .45 wheel gun and shoot single action to give you an even bigger advantage.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
I've got a .30-30 ten inch Contender barrel. hoo dogey!
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
Never understood the 45-70 contender handgun, great novelty but no thanks. I was content with a 357 maximum, 200 gr @ 1900 fps was pretty interesting from a 10" tube. The 10" 218 mashburn bee was downright fun.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
Piton Ron's dad back in the day teaching the lad how to even up a gun fight. The old man passed all his "toys" off to his son.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
Nah, that must be his crazy cousin.

Beautiful piece though. What is it chambered in? Those are some big rounds.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 29, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
37mm?
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
Maxime Nordenfelt .430 inch
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
Not so much an anti-personnel weapon as one to be used against vehicles and boats.

Where is the water pump?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
12?

20?

.410?

RPG's. Go big or go home.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
Barnes 12th edition has over 1500 cartridges and no Maxime Nordenfelt .430 inch.

It even has obscure stuff like the .577 Snider
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Enough with the small dick compensators, name some shitters already.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
says the guy named capinyoazz
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
You people need to stay on the thread topic, whatever the eff that is.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 29, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
Holy Crapola! I was looking at ammo prices in Cheaper than Dirt and holy effin crap the big bore monster rifle cartriges are insanely expensive!
.375 H&H $94.00 for 20 rnds
.416 Rigby $192.79
.458 Win mag $137.13
.45-70 Govt $29.19

Seems like you could get over those crazy big bore behemouths and just use 12GA Slugs for pretty much anything that needs that big of a round...

I understand the need for a Barret .50 but a feckin fancy rifle that cost a bazilion dollars and shoots ammo that cost 2 bazillion dollars for short range work that would be much better handled with a $330.00 Remington 870 pump gun with a slug barrel and Federal 3" magnum slugs @ a buck apiece
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 29, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
This shows that with guns you can even hijack a train after it has been wrecked.

The thing about the spike in ammo prices is that I have taken to shooting bench rifles more. The cartridges tend to cost more than shotguns and handguns, but the rate of fire is so much slower that they are cheaper to shoot.

Those $7/rd rifles are for guys that spend $50K on taking down something big and hairy for Ron to stuff.
(He might do some taxidermy too.)


But Tradman, shouldn't you be out rebuilding your road. Get to work. Eating apples is gonna get old fast.
Mimi

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
Sorry, didn't go back to my last high point to catch up.

The 1000 Bolts to Horse Chute claim prompted me to re-read The Book of Dik over the weekend.

There is nothing remotely normal about these guys or this route. And that's putting it nicely. harharharhar!!!!

This was not about territoriality. Warren's Forward was coerced but I would likely be sued by Bwana if I said why. I really liked the parts about their mole, Howard, who used his time in the Valley seeking out 'Rescue Site' guys for inside information and providing radio news communications every couple of days before he quit coming back. LOL! Radio silence ensued. Too bad the 'locals' didn't take it over.

Where is Howard? He's a walking archive if his memory isn't shot like so many from back then.

And about dropping the bolt bag after a couple of weeks and about five pitches up. Why didn't you simply tie some of your 9 cords together and get your groundman to tie it on? Or had he lost interest by then? Or heard so much from the 'locals' that he ran away screaming?

And where's the Brit who belayed Skid while Bwana was attending to one of his first lawsuits in LA for a few days? He also disappeared after that slogfest on P2.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
Meme wrote:

A bunch more blathering hate

Pictured (From left to right): Richard Jensen, Werner, Mimi
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Coz: you're right, MF*#ker is a POS. His only purpose in life is to set an example of the kind of person NEVER to become and to give men in prison something to pound.

Donini vs Coz: Donini would wup or ass. You're both bad ass climbers, but Jim would f*#k up to seven ways to sunday.

Mimi: carry on. Keep gobbl'n up the spew you do. You have to be full by now Mimi, and seriously taking in that much protien gives you mud butt. You should call MF*#ker and he'll help you out. And I'm sure Steve won't mind watching.

He could write the book on it, just like you 2 are trying with climbing "ethics"
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
BOOM! That just happened.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Aug 30, 2011 - 12:11am PT
Place and time dickhead, I mean Jim Donini!

Werner, I'll take your advice, but this guy is so much BS it's hard too take.



I was taking the piss out of Jim, a man I know and respect and I'm not fighting anyone.

You should add hypocrite too COZ. These comments don't mix. Even if you say you where "JK".

Now don't cry and take your marbles and run home.


I'm so far removed from climbing, climbers and all the groupies who wanted to be cool, that this whole thing seems like a joke.
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:03am PT
since we're talking about arms and ammo, what do you make of this chap?

http://www.youtube.com/user/FPSRussia
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Aug 30, 2011 - 01:26am PT
a.lake

climber
big rock candy mountain
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:02am PT
Faked: WoS thread is the biggest dicktease on the hole-fuggin wimpernet.


(and apparently A&K are taking the money $hot literally. well played)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:41am PT
How could anyone ever look up the Super Slab (the start of WOS) and believe there was an authentic route there - authentic being a highly subjective word, granted. I see those 5 bolt belays and know these guys had way too much time on their hands. It's like the Gringo version of the compressor route on Cerro Torre, but less. Sh#t, I don't know, but I can't imagine spending so much time on so little.

JL
Technogeekery

Trad climber
Tokyo, Japan
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:27am PT
Same is frequently said about aid climbing in general...
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:50am PT
Upthread, before it was hi-jacked by the gun lobby, Lovegasoline asked:
"Hooking in general seems a pretty old technique. When did it start?"
Hooking is reputedly the oldest of all professions, so it started way, way back. For most people, technique changes and improves with age.

Richard, I think that your book and climb are both great. However since I have never made a FA on El Cap, nor climbed WOS, it appears that I am not qualified to make a comment, or hold an opinion on this matter. Hang in a little while longer. Ammon's article will be out soon enough, and I expect you guys to be finally vindicated. If anyone can handle a little more "sh*t and abuse", then you can.
Cheers, HM.
gumbyclimber

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 05:27am PT
Wings of Steel, showcasing mountaineering's most charming personalities for over 30 years.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:21am PT
I remember reading something in guns and ammo BINTD when I read that rag about how modern sabot shotgun slugs were the ticket for all those big hairy things in africa...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 30, 2011 - 08:57am PT
There is nothing remotely normal about these guys...

Well, good morning, Ms. Obvious! They ARE climbers! Duh! I've never looked at my climbing buddies and thought to myself, "Now there's a bunch of just regular folks."

This thread being a case in point.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:55am PT
Richard, I think that your book and climb are both great. ... Hang in a little while longer. Ammon's article will be out soon enough, and I expect you guys to be finally vindicated.


Hear, hear! Well spoken, Hamie!

Given the negativity of the ongoing flame wars, the calling out of the shitters, or any of the other topics being discussed here, it almost seems like some refocus might be important. Interestingly enough, probably one of the most positive posts I've seen in this saga was also the most powerful. Here's a repost of Richard's response to jaybro's question of what Wings of Steel meant to him, personally.

Enjoy folks, and consider letting some bygones be bygone.

Jaybro, I really appreciate such a perceptive question, and I'm happy to take a stab at answering. I'll also try to keep it (fairly) short. lol

Mostly the route was grim. It wasn't fun. Ammon has talked before about the "tedious" nature of the hooking. It's hard to describe how the juxtaposition of the "sameness" and the terror works. We were scared all the time. I, personally, don't think I ever fully got my ankle out of my mind. It hurt all the time, the whole route, and it wasn't properly flexible. So just moving in the aiders was a constant reminder of the potential of yet more pain to come. And each fall seemed worse to me because my mind was screaming: "Watch the ankle!" Fortunately, aside from scrapes and bruises, the other falls didn't exact a steeper price.

That said, however, the sheer beauty of that slab is impossible to fully describe! It SHINES! It GLOWS! It catches all different sorts of light and takes on those colors. We were back and forth on the main water streak, and it flowed until mid-afternoon that year. And it caught the light and really glowed. And the wall is RIPPLED in a way you don't see from the meadow or the ground. It's like you are slowly moving up these shining waves of perfectly-polished rock, glassy smooth in many areas.

It teams with life. The swallows (I enjoyed, Mark hated) are like little jet fighters, and the peregrine falcons are beyond amazing as they stoop down the wall taking those guys out! Several times they flew by almost arm's reach away! There are spiders and little red mites everywhere. It's like you're immersed in this ecosystem, and being that long in it you come to feel a part of it. We belonged. We LIVED there. This wasn't "getting up" a wall. This was living there... being there.

Another thing that's hard to describe is that even belaying on that route is intense. So, there's no mental rest whether you're leading or belaying. The falls launch you, and you get launched quite a bit! You get banged up just getting launched into the anchor so much. And you empathize with what the leader is going through. So, the thing slowly drains you of the will to continue. It's relentless, whether you're leading or belaying. As I said, it mostly felt grim.

But I actually found the hooking itself profoundly interesting. The flakes are SO tiny that you FEEL the subtle differences in them more than see the differences. You start to get a FEEL for what's got a better chance of holding. It's like caressing the rock gently to detect its minute secrets. I can imagine how others would find this unappealing or just tedious. Like: try this... fall; try that... fall; try the other... move on. But we found that if we slowed down and really FELT the rock, we did better.

Another thing that you wouldn't initially think about is the drilling itself. When you are top-looping a hook flake the size of a dime, imagine the outward pull, the not-good sort of pressure on the flake. Once you've gotten yourself positioned, your heels together and your toes wide to make a triangulated stance, you don't MOVE! I mean you don't move a muscle from the waist down. So, imagine drilling now. You arch your back away from the wall, barely balanced, reach as high overhead as you can (make the effort count). You want to POUND on that drill holder, because every flake you're on is a ticking time-bomb, and you want OFF of it! But you can't! POUNDING on the drill holder like normal causes far too much lower-body movement. And your lower body has to be STILL. So, you're hitting that drill holder with, like, 1/4 force. So every bolt or rivet takes so much longer than it should. Your feet go to sleep. Then your lower legs. Then your calves and thighs start cramping. Your lower back is hurting from the arch in it. The pain, honestly, gets intense! So, when you finally get the drilled placement in (IF you do without falling yet again), you have to hang there for at least fifteen minutes just getting functional again. That tiny piece of metal IN the wall is Heaven in the sea of hooking. And it's a mental TRAUMA to move off of it onto that next micro-flake. Terror, rest, terror. Rinse and repeat.

We didn't drill unless we couldn't find something to hook. We weren't just slapping in holes when we got scared. The only thing about our drilling that the rock didn't dictate was whether or not we put in a bolt or rivet. So, we were intentionally trying to, as the Bird said, "Keep the commitment level high." And, because we KNEW that we didn't know quite where the bar of "commitment level" OUGHT to be, our goal was to keep ourselves as utterly terrified as possible. So, we intended the route to feel grim to us. We weren't seeking to have fun. We were seeking to know what we were made of. I don't mean that to sound grandiose. I'm just saying that we didn't do that route for the typical reasons people do routes.

And I think that's one of the reasons why the particular nature of the defamation has been so painful over the years. It's not just that we didn't do ANY of what we've been accused of. It's that our accusers have seemed to project THEIR motivations for climbing such a route onto us. And we just didn't have some of the typical motivations. We went up there intending to terrorize ourselves, and "success" for us each day was rapping back to the bivy each night completely drained.

During the three-day storm at the top of the slab, we started having the same nightmares. In our dreams we would climb and climb and climb. For days. Yet the summit keep receding. So we would rappel and rappel. But the ground would recede away. So, we would give up and try to climb and climb again. But the summit would recede away. On and on. Night after night. A month into it, we were mentally maxed out in a way I have never experienced. And after that three-day storm, we almost bailed. It was mighty close. But we just kept thinking of the price we had paid thus far, and we just couldn't bring ourselves to start down. We kept thinking that if we could get into the Overseer cracks, we could make it to Aquarian.

We had always planned to end up in Aquarian wall, because our scoping efforts had revealed that there was only overhanging blankness from the top of the Overseer cracks to Truck Stop or any other features straight up. And when we got up there, we saw that our scoping was confirmed. By then we were actually a bit worried that we might find some tiny crack systems leading up, because by then we were really ready to get into Aquarian. Fortunately, nothing presented at the top of the Overseer cracks. We were DONE. The slab had just kicked the crap out of us.

When we reached the top, it was totally anti-climactic. No real sense of triumph. No sense of "we kicked ass" or anything like that. And we hadn't walked in more than a month, so even hiking out was a struggle.

And I really remember something strange from the hike out!

As we were hiking the Falls trail, we encountered a few girls. The looked STRANGE, man! I mean, women are built SO differently from men, and we had only see each other for 39 days. We got so mentally accustomed to seeing only the male form (no homo!) that that was "normal." And I was actually STARING at those girls, not in lust, but in AWE... just thinking, "Wow! That is something DIFFERENT!" Ever since then I've had a whole new appreciation for just how women are built. I don't mean that to sound seedy. I mean that they are just wonderful, and I'm so glad that we aren't all built like men. lol

After the ascent, the "persecution" set in for real. It was everywhere we went. We couldn't go to a climbing area in SoCal (except the Quarry) where people didn't recognize us and either catcall or yell obscenities at us. Sometimes groups would gather around to "have their say." All the while, we were thinking, "Wow, it sure seemed hard to US. It really isn't like they are saying it is. But perhaps we really ARE just complete losers."

And that self-doubt is what motivated us to try things like the Sea and Intifada. Now our critics say that we were all about self-promotion, but that wasn't it at all. We needed to KNOW if we were really as lame as we were being told. And as we saw that we weren't, we became DEFIANT! The objectives facts of what we did up there can be DERIVED from the drilled placements. But there is a deep subtlety about the performance we were seeking from ourselves that cannot be objectively quantified that way, and it was that subtlety that we needed to KNOW about ourselves.

The game we played was simple: run it out on natural hooking (sans this or that offending crystal on an edge) until no hook flake presented. Then drill a bolt or rivet (depending upon what had gone before). DEAL with what the rock presented and take EVERY opportunity to use the TINIEST of features to get up without drilling. Only in that way could we ensure that the self-test was real. And for us, the self-test was all that mattered.

Well, you know me... a bit longer than might be hoped. What can I say?

How about a bit more? lol

I've emphasized the grimness, because that is what we were seeking, and we found more than plenty of it. But that route did define me in terms of my self-image, and I think in entirely positive ways. Ever since that climb, I've KNOWN who and what I am in a way that few people on Earth ever will. I think that's the great thing about climbing: the opportunity it presents you to KNOW YOURSELF to OWN YOURSELF. I got that from WoS and subsequent climbs. So, I look back now with great fondness on the route. We are inexorably linked. Whatever is there now is not "the route" to me. I don't care what has happened to it or what will happen to it. "The route" was what I experienced on it and how that experience changed me. And I think that everything else I've accomplished in life can be traced back to those 39 self-defining days. For better or worse, I am the person I am today because of "the route."
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:22am PT
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:44am PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 30, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Before they are outed, it might be sporting to contact them via email. You never know - 29 years later they may feel differently.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 30, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
I have to agree with Pete, like I said genius, they're well known.

No, they're not well known Coz. It might not matter though really. Sh#t soon turns to dust and blows away. As will we at some point. Yet the story will remain.
pc

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
Fer chrissakes, hasn't the statuteshit of limitations run out on all that stuff?

And Coz, you and a few other folks around here really need to tighten your wingnuts. And no, I don't believe I need to have an El Cap FA to make that assessment.

Cheers,
pc

Still a good thread overall though...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
You mean they don't want to stand up and be counted?

DMT

Squatting is more appropriate, I think.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
How could anyone ever look up the Super Slab (the start of WOS) and believe there was an authentic route there - authentic being a highly subjective word, granted....

Largo's comment is, methinks, revealing of how Valley climbers viewed that slab, 30 years ago.

Which makes me wonder....

Maybe Richard and Mark owe some thanks to the likes of Dimitri and Grossman and Middendorf and the whole “Valley Christian” elitist attitude that Richard complains of. Had it not been for that vigorous policing, that same beautiful, blank, pristine slab that drew their eyes might have already been climbed by 1982.

Climbed by a party—and there were such folks around during the ’60s and ’70s, they largely stayed away from Yosemite—who figured the slab would be a great place to practice bolting in a place that “real” aid climbers would not be interested in. A party that didn’t give a sh... umm, damn about even trying to hook tiny, crinkly edges, modified or not, but who actually would have left 1,000 rusting rivets to Horse Chute.

Oh the irony!

Greatly enjoyed reading your write-up Richard. Vivid imagery.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Aug 30, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
WOS was a visionary climb.

It foretold a future of vertical camping trips, winched hanging junk shows, 5-bolt belays and the Disneyfication of El Cap.

The WOS boys were up there long before Coz was cooking pizza on the Shaft, Chongo was eluding the tool, PTPTP was brewing espresso on a portaledge, Tommy was sessioning crimps for months on end, or any number of microaiders were connecting the X's
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 30, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
Diers. Gonna Die!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
What is the Lobo story?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
One last comment before I vacate this thread for good. Frankly, I have paid very little attention to the merits of either the creators of WOS or to their detractors. I became interested only in the invective and lack of good taste or manners from many people posting their views. My only comments have concerned the parochial nature of such a long lived thread and what I referred to as the drama queen behavior of a lot of posters.
Consequently, I was surprised at the vitrioloic response to my comparatively mild posts.
I hope everyone continues to have fun heaving invective at each other- I'll supply the diapers.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
Crunch

Just to put things in perspective, it would never be 1000 bolts to Horse Chute.

On less than vertical, a pure bolt ladder would take about 25 rivets per pitch. So, for 9 pitches that adds up to 175 holes, not including belays. The issue might be more the comparison with what was actually required vs. what would theoretically be a pure bolt ladder.

By the way, I don't consider myself a valley christian. I had to put my time in before I became an "insider" (if there ever was such a category in Yosemite).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
I had to put my time in before I became an "insider"

Bottom first?




Hey Donini if they lived in manors they wouldn't behave that way.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Don't be so quick to toss out your unknowns... you may miss them when they're gone.

DMT

What you talking about Willis?

Prod.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Aug 30, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
Donini said:

"One last comment before I vacate this thread. . . (for good)"

Isn't that how astronauts poop?
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Aug 30, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
@DMT: Just spewed Dogfish Head 60" IPA out my nose.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 30, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
Hey Duecy, no disrespect meant.

Lessee, what did I say? “Maybe Richard and Mark owe some thanks to the likes of Dimitri and Grossman and Middendorf and the whole “Valley Christian” elitist attitude that Richard complains of.”

I was referring to what Jensen had complained about upthread, and using his words. Sorry if I was not very clear.

Here’s the quote, from upthread:

“.... Oh, final note, I haven't called our critics "Heathen." Ironically, I continue to call them this generation's "Valley Christians." Self-policing indeed! It is to laugh.”

But now you got me wondering just how many bolts would be needed for a bolt ladder the whole way? How high can one reach and hammer on that slab? Six feet from the last bolt? It's been years since I was at the base. It's less than vertical, but maybe not by much.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 30, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Been wondering that myself. Just how many feet up is the slab?

Hang on a tic, I bet that's somewhere in the book...
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Aug 30, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Hey Jim Donini! I've met you a number of times over the years, most recently at Indian Creek. You have always been super cool and super happy; and I completely agree with your last (and final) post!

Your posts are way tame to much of what is posted on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 12:23am PT
Aye. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience here, Jim.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:01am PT
All right. I found it. Page 66 of Wings of Steel. "The slab was 1,200 feet high." I assume that's as the raven flies. So hang on - divide by 175 and I come out with 6.85, so Deuce, I believe that would be one bolt approximately every 7 feet in that scenario.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2011 - 10:05am PT
All right. I found it. Page 66 of Wings of Steel. "The slab was 1,200 feet high." I assume that's as the raven flies. So hang on - divide by 175 and I come out with 6.85, so Deuce, I believe that would be one bolt approximately every 7 feet in that scenario.

I'd say that's about right. Even a 5'9 midget like myself could top step on a slab and drill a hole (barely!) every 6'10. And if I had a Cliffhanger bolt gun, I could probably dyno a bit further and pop one in.
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Aug 31, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
After first reading it shortly after it was published, I read the book again a few days ago. The account of the big storm mentioned that three parties were rescued from El Cap. If they were so incompetent as a few of you insist, why didn't they need to be rescued? I remember that storm dumping a foot of snow on a group of us backpacking in Tuolumne.

Unfortunately an error crept into the book and Richard's recent account: the "swallows" were mostly White-throated Swifts with a few Black Swifts mixed in.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
Where did all of the Drama go?

SG and Mimi vs. FA's
Coz vs. Donini
Piton vs. Anyone with a gun
Meaty vs. Meaty.

I think Jaybro ruined this thread with his inquiry about what the climbing was like. Damn you Jaybro

Prod.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 31, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Now, THAT'S funny.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
Hankster -

Well played!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 31, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
This thread is drifting in either irrelevance or relevance, I don't know which.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 31, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Unfortunately an error crept into the book and Richard's recent account: the "swallows" were mostly White-throated Swifts with a few Black Swifts mixed in

-knott to mention a few Mud Falcons...
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 31, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
Max and I topped out on the South Face of Mt Watkns in late fall of 1979. We shook hands and that was pretty much the last time we ever climbed in Yosemite together. We weren't around in the Valley during the slander and bad feeling years of the early 80s.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:00am PT
Bump. Want a reason? How's about because.
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Sep 1, 2011 - 11:17am PT
Well, I just now noted that the movie folks have gathered their $5k. It sounds like the story will be told.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Well, I just now noted that the movie folks have gathered their $5k. It sounds like the story will be told.

What story?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
[I posted this on the censorship thread when i thought this one was nuked, I think it belongs here, though]


I found myself on the horns of a delemma this morning. I was awoken by a loud banging. My initial response was to roll over and return toy unsettling dreams.

My wife however had other ideas. She insisted I investigate what was going on downstairs.

I got up out of bed and ran my fingers through my dreads. Unstable on my suddenly numerous, tiny legs, I pulled on my custom Joe boxer™ smiley face boxers.

Palming my james bond limited addition Barrera, complete with my Barney fife single round, I descended the stairs...

To be dumbfounded with the scene below!

At one widow a bearded man with an amish style hat was attempting to high step an aider hanging from a Leeper, narrow point, hook on the slab of my windowsill. Trailing a hemp rope across the floor of my chalet. My eyes followed the rope only to find another Intruder, wearing only a T shirt that proclaimed "fukness forever" straddling the rope where it ran over my Marcus Garvey prayer rug!
What's worse he was squatting, appearing to take a dump! He had a porkchop held to his face.

Both men looked at me and with one voiced, "don't just stand there, shoot him!"

What to do? Having only the one bullet. I aimed alternately at the hooker and the pooper. I knew I only had a brief window of time in which to act.

What would solomon do?

Channeling my inner cowboy, ninja, bear I decided in the blink of an eye, on decisive action......

To be continued........]
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
LOL

We need to start a new thread to name the WoS movie.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
Why in the he'll would you miss that time period in the valley. Really how often do you get the chance to be part of something like that.

Oh yeah, I deeply regret it, its like a giant hole in my life experiences. NOT!
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
Jaybro -

shoot the lawyer TWICE

oh wait, that is answer to a different dilema
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
No, gut shoot the pooper and pistol whip the hooker.
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
So in what medium will the story from Ammon be? Magazine and/or movie? Will it be in Climbing/Alpinist/Ascene/R&I?

Will we all have to wait until the film comes out to get his and Kait's account of the climb?
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
whatever medium

we know

it will be


T H E ..... S H % T ! !
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
oh man, it stinks in here now...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
Look, if you're going to get on this thing after the SA, I'd say it's pretty clear you should suit up with gear that's designed for this sort of thing:


Movie title? WOS: Skidrow Or Skidmarks?
Gene

climber
Sep 1, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
Movie title? WOS: Skidrow Or Skidmarks?


Missiles Hitting Wings of Steel
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 1, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
Wings of Steel: Unfolding the Mystery of Drama Itself
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Sep 1, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Wings of Sh'it - the modern story of Icarus.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 1, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
The Silence of the Ammons?

For a Few Dimples More?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Written in Stone?

The Climb That Wouldn't Die?

Slab Of The Living Dread?

Attack of the Mud Falcons?
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 1, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
Attack of the Mud Falcons?

hahahahahahahahaha
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:03am PT
Wings of PONIES!
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:11am PT
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:19am PT

Wings of Squeal
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:59am PT
Amazing. XD
Mimi.

Big Wall climber
Rantsville, Ca
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
You as#@&%es can make fun all you want. Soon the facts will come out, and I will be vindicated, Skid and Bwaha will be proven to be inexperienced twits who had no right to be on my rock. Then you'll see.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 2, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
You as#@&%es can make fun all you want. Soon the facts will come out, and I will be vindicated, Skid and Bwaha will be proven to be inexperienced twits who had no right to be on my rock. Then you'll see.

Whatever you say, Russ.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
The Men Who Stare At Bolts


The El Cap Incident


They Shoot Enhancers Don't They


The Rock Above, The Mud Below!


The Good, The Bad, And The Muddy!


To Kill A Mud Falcon
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 2, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
The Good, The Bad, And The Muddy!

...and let's not forget "A Fist Full Dookie" and "For a Few Dookies More"
Tork

climber
Yosemite
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
I almost wrote something mean.
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
The Happy Hookers

Hook, Then Book

1,000 Bolts to Crap Chute
strangeday

Trad climber
Brea ca.
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
You as#@&%es can make fun all you want. Soon the facts will come out, and I will be vindicated, Skid and Bwaha will be proven to be inexperienced twits who had no right to be on my rock. Then you'll see.

I didn't know Mimi owned El Cap...no wonder she is so pissed!
strangeday

Trad climber
Brea ca.
Sep 2, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
Easy, I just didn't know you could own the rock... I'll shut up now, and let all you cool kids do your thing...
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
I bet she spits too, she's to much of a winer to shallow.

Mimi, what size helmet do you wear? Maybe the proceeds of the film we can buy you a helmet with handlebars on it. Your ears must be sore, plus it would make it easier on Steve.

I'm pretty sure he's sick of your sh#t by now.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Sep 2, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
Slabablanca

Forest Dump

Das Poop

There will be shit
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
Das Poop

Very good.


Raging Bullshyte

Plop Fiction

Some Like It Hot

The Sweet Smell of Success
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
Full Metal Jack Up


On Top Of This Now
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 2, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
brokebutt mountain
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Toilet Paper Moon
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
The Hurt Hooker


Inglorious Slabsters
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Chariots of Mire

Dump and Dumper
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
Raiders Of The Lost Edge


Low Rents Of El Capitan
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 2, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
Pretty in Poop

Smeared Science
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
A Shitstain Named Desire

Mean Streaks

Sin Shitty
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:12pm PT
A Shitstain Named Desire

I about shat myself laughing!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
The Dark Shite



Moby Hook
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
Shameless Shitter and the Big Squat

Revenge is a dish best served steaming

Flung Dung: A history of Hypoothetical Shiterature

The dooking of Wings of Steel

The Clean Release: How to Expel Well

Faces and Feces: The wings of steel story

Turd Terrorism: The Wings of Steel Apoocalypse
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
National Lampoons: Shitty vacation

Shitbiscuit

Crapnet

Shitshank Redemption

The Devine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Shithood

Two Streaks notice


....I think I like this thread now!
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
Super Poopers

Smearfest
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
Gone in Sixty Seconds

Harry Plopper

Big

Freddy Crapper

The Terd-inator
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
The Temple Of Dooo



The Hangs Of New Dork
Gene

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Tail of Two Shyties
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
Pitch Black

Sponge Bob Shitpants

Look who's pooping now
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
They wanted "Old Spice" but got a different brand of colon instead.
dipper

climber
Sep 2, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
The Sting
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
Three Days Of The Mud Falcon




Turd Runner
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 2, 2011 - 10:25pm PT
Fecal Attraction

Into The Pile
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
me likey 'smearfest'
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 2, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
samesame as the "meaty*.* posts-

You as#@&%es can make fun all you want. Soon the facts will come out, and I will be vindicated, Skid and Bwaha will be proven to be inexperienced twits who had no right to be on my rock. Then you'll see.


that was posted (1st post ever) by Mimi*.*



fyi
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:03am PT
Yes Matt.
We figured that out.










And now, here's a post from "Real Mimi". She has something real important to say, so every pony in Ponyville should pay attention.
Mimi

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:03am PT
Real Mimi here with a little late night entertainment.

page 54 of the Book of Dik, wherein all things are revealed:

After months of climbing, planning, and preparation, we left for the valley. We began our attempt on Wings of Steel (the name of our climb) early in the morning of May 4, 1982.

After years of pondering and restless waiting, the day of reckoning had arrived. Our most immediate concern was the huge pile of gear stashed in our tents. Could we move it all up the wall? Our calculations suggested we would have to live on the wall for a month. Were we deluded to think we could spend a month up there?

Instead of looking at the whole mound of gear in one mass, we had to look at it as the seven haul bags it would be, to be hauled up one by one, a lttle at a time. We could not yet grasp the thought of a month on the wall, but as we looked at the massive mound of gear, we thought we had covered all contingencies. We gained more confidence in our six months of planning.

We hiked to the base of the slab and wandered back and forth, looking for the most likely line of weakness with which to start the climb. Just looking up at the slab and thinking about the audacity of our undertaking was enough to send chills through me.

After a few hours we agreed upon the spot where Wings of Steel would leave the ground, and we determined that the next day we sould begin work on the first two pitches. We hiked badk to camp and began to rack up, all the while awash in waves of doubt and fear. As we racked, we talked. We gained courage from each other and cemented our resolve. We spent hours discussing a retreat, and decided that we were committed to the climb. Once we left the ground, we would rim out unless we were injured or the climbing became invalid in our minds. We made a vow to each other that neither of us would mention the "Q" word: QUIT! Our theory was that if neither of us started a discussion about quitting, we could never agree to quit.
We turned in that night with high hopes and soaring enthusiasm. That night I dreamed a vague dream about being "up there."
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 3, 2011 - 03:08am PT
Trail of Smears


Caddyshat
Gene

climber
Sep 3, 2011 - 10:56am PT
Scaturday Night Fever
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:24am PT
now this post is worth reading!
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Sep 3, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
Real Mimi,

In regards to the quote above, your point is.....?

Just what is it about this route and these climbers that was so profoundly offensive to warrant such unflinching hatred and contempt for all these years ?

Can you give us a concise and factual summary of what actually went on and how people that were there at the time felt about the FA. ?

No derogatory nicknames, no snide junior high school gossip , just the facts please.


Thanks
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 3, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I, Rivet


Slab Torino


Shittysberg


No Poop Tube For Old Men
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Sep 3, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
Not Fish Finder
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Sep 3, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
Shat On A Hot Tin Roof

Revenge Of The Turds

Charmin Electra

Electra Glide In Poo


...I could go on all day like this. The possibilities.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Sep 3, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
"You can't handle the poop!"
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 3, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
Is that from A Few Good Turds?
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
Right you are, Ron O.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Sep 3, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
You don't want me on that wall!
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
poop goes the weasel
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 3, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
poop in the hook
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 4, 2011 - 12:05am PT
skat on a hot granite slab

talkin sh#t

another variation (and shit)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 4, 2011 - 12:52am PT
Which one's the pretty one?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 5, 2011 - 12:19am PT
I am proud to announce that after incalculable blood, sweat, and tears, I have finished my solo ascent of Wings of Steel.


I'm feeling pretty amped. I think it's time I should tackle Everest. By Gordon Korman.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:31am PT
Hook'in for Heaven

A Chip to Far

Wings of Drills

Christ on the Ropes

Bat Hole a NoNo

Going the Brown Route

We did it Our Way, Not Mimi's

Never Forgotten, Never Forgiven
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Sep 5, 2011 - 02:57am PT
Movement Over Stone
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 5, 2011 - 11:27am PT
This thread never ceases to entertain me!
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
movement over stone

lol
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 5, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
(Have we forgotten Hitchcock?)



The Man Who Hooked Too Much

Strangers On A Slab

The 39 Hooks

Dial E For Enhancement

Lifebolt

To Catch A Chiseler

The Turds
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 5, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
When Shitty Met Ropey

You've Got Sh#t

Sh#t Anything

Someone Sh#t Over The Poopoo's Nest

Squirty Mary, Glazey Larry
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:27am PT
The Tao Of Poo
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:37am PT
Wow Fatty, that is a profoundly unused wall hammer a page back....
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:48am PT
Looks used to me.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:49am PT
A Smear Too Far
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 6, 2011 - 12:58am PT
White Hunter Black Shart
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 6, 2011 - 11:59am PT
The Filth Element

Forrest Dump

Blow Out

Flush Hour 1 ...and now Flush Hour 2

Winnie the Pooh's Grand Adventure

The Firm

The Big Squeeze
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Log Jamming
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 6, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
walls with balls
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 6, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
Dude, where'd my hook placement go?

sh#t, hooks and internet forums

crouching monkey, hidden pooper

poop fiction

one hook over the poo poo nest
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 6, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
Oh big bowel, Where Art Thou?

The Good Farter

While you were shitting

The Empire shits back

Stop! Or My Partner Will Poop!
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Sep 6, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
I Am Curious (Brown).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 7, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
italian/irish?

Does that mean you talk with your hands when you drink?


(kidding Scot, don't let them get to you)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Well, anyway, back to business. The Coen Brothers have already been touched on but who could forget;

The Hookscraper Proxy

Drillers Crossing

Hook Simple

Turd After Drilling

Oh Hooker, Where Art Thou?

Turdo

Barton Hook

True Bit
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 7, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
Over Seven Days: The event
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Sep 7, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
The Sh#t And The Pendulum

Pooptubes Are Optional

The Turd Police

Brown Stained Shoes

Sh#t - It's Not Just For Breakfast Anymore

Proctologist's Delight

Fecal Fairies

Scat Line

Poopers In The Night
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Sep 7, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Ok, we have options for film names... How about some actors for the players:

Kiera Knightly and Johnny Depp as Ammon and Kait

Kirk Cameron and Willem Dafoe as Mark and Richard

Gary Busey and Kathy Bates as Steve and Mimi

And of course, Rick Moranis as PTPP

I think there are better matches... Let's see 'em!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
I did not think it could be done, but you did it. By proposing asinine and uncreative movie titles repeatedly, you have killed this thread. Nothing else, but sheer stupidity, could have possibly worked, and you did it. You should be proud. Congratulations Supertopo!
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
Thank you, thank you...

dick and fart jokes always win the day...
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
One thing I've learned as an engineer, never, ever underestimate the power of stupid!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 7, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
I did not think it could be done, but you did it. By proposing asinine and uncreative movie titles repeatedly, you have killed this thread. Nothing else, but sheer stupidity, could have possibly worked, and you did it. You should be proud. Congratulations Supertopo!

you mean that mimi's hate spew had some redeeming qualities?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 7, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Asinine and uncreative? I thought from your avatar you knew when to play dead.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 7, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Cacablanca
The Wizard of Ooze
Shittin' in the Rain
It's a Wonderful Sh#t by Frank Crapra
Some Like it Steaming
All About Mimi
Psycho
The Craps of Wrath
The Maltese Mud Falcon
Raging Bullsh#t
Midnight Crapboy
Rear Blowout
The Birth of a Turd
The Third Dump
Rebel Without a Diaper
Poopsie
The Silence of the Lames
Shitty Lights
Fartgo
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Sep 8, 2011 - 01:25am PT
There used to be a tee shirt that said something to the effect that

'' Climbing is hard, but it's easier than growing up !''

This thread definitely proves it.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Sep 8, 2011 - 03:24am PT
I have been wondering about the nature of the hooking on this route, or the endless others that could go up right next to it.

You know that people are taking whippers. I am curious how much damage this does. Example being how long will the hook moves last. Even hooking on a good edge starts to get pretty worn after a while.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 8, 2011 - 08:46am PT
It has to happen, to even the best thread. Eventually they all get overwhelmed by the mass of idiots crushing to get onboard.

The best of threads? You think these threads just now turned idiotic?
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
DMT,

I just know that there were a lot of falls on both the FA and SA. How many were caused by breaking the placements? It only takes one, ya know.

It is just that hooks wear on the rock. They put a lot of pressure on a tiny point. From the talk of all the whippers Ammon took, I wonder how many were due to ripping off hook placements, and how it might have gotten harder. I am sure you have seen hook moves that have gotten dished out by a lot of travel.

A route like WOS might only be able to stand a small number of repeats. No kidding. If it is hooking little crystals, some are gonna blow.
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 8, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
just bring some tin foil up there and make some time bombs, gawd you guys have small balls, ammon is the sh#t...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 8, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
Dead Bears Don't Wear Plaid






oh, sorry! wrong thread,..
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 8, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
A route like WOS might only be able to stand a small number of repeats. No kidding. If it is hooking little crystals, some are gonna blow.

By all accounts, the same might be said about most routes on El Capitan. The rock on them is in considerably different physical condition than on the first ascent. The Shield being perhaps the poster child.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 8, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
The Spy Who Sh#t On Me
The Chronicles of El Capitan: The Crying, The Bitch, and the ButtLoad.
Meet the Shitters
Crap Away
How to Train Your Anus
3 Men and a Dukey
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Sep 9, 2011 - 05:45am PT
By all accounts, the same might be said about most routes on El Capitan. The rock on them is in considerably different physical condition than on the first ascent. The Shield being perhaps the poster child.

That is not what I mean, MH. Sure, the Shield got the crap beaten out of it, but breaking off hooking features leads directly to new holes. The more repeats, the more holes.

Not really a judgment on the route, just a guess.
ChampionSleeper

Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:13am PT
Pooperman
Bravefart.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 10:21am PT
I just noticed this little gem, written by Duane Raleigh for Rock and Ice.

http://rockandice.com/component/content/article/37-tnb/1519-tnb-slander-slabs

Also interesting, Jeff Vargen mentioned that an interview for the film took place with someone "in disguise" who answered one of the route's longest standing questions. I wonder what that might be.

Further, some incredibly handsome devil with a penchant for victorian era swag just contributed $25.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:13am PT
I also read the book recently, and it really is quite good. Not sure what I was expecting, but it's a quick and fascinating tale of an epic climb. Worth every penny of the 97 cents it ran me on Amazon.com.

And the forward by Warren Harding is CLASSIC!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:32am PT
Hummerchine, I'm looking at the foreword, and I realize I missed out on this particular bit of history. Who was Warren J. Harding? How does he fit into all of this?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:37am PT
Wings Of Repetition.

Wings Of Dead Horse.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:57am PT
Somebody shoot that ignorant Dweeb.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
Harding "dated" Richard's mom a couple of years after the WOS FA. And for a couple of years as well. As you all know, Harding was really losing it horribly at the end. Richard and Mark did not know Harding before then, so Harding did not have any direct personal influence on their Harding-like ascent.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Oh, this guy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Harding_%28climber%29
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
Harding "dated" Richard's mom a couple of years after the WOS FA. And for a couple of years as well.

It took 2934 posts before we finally get to the gud stuff?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
The most unused wall hammer in the world, courtesy of fatty.
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 9, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
"Slander Slabs"

? totally ghey, we can come up with way better names for your articles...
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 9, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
Beer Can Flew Over the Hook Crew's Nest
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/6550297
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 9, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
Riley posted this in the car wreck thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599262&msg=1604244#msg1604244

Is it a parable for this thread?

When we were 20 or 21 my best friend literally saved up pennies and tips from his bartender job and paid cash for a really nice 14,000 dollar jeep.
After a period of time he put it in at the local Chrysler Dealer for a tune up. During the tune up they dropped it off the lift and dented in his quarter panel. They fixed it but the color didn't match.
My friend has a heart of gold and is quite honestly the kindest and best person I have ever known. But he had lost his father to cancer at 18, so among everything else a "nice guy" has brewing from his childhood, he had some serious scores to settle with the world. He took out his revenge on the world as head bouncer at the largest bar in the city. He had fought practically every night for a few years and probably every soul in the city new the guy. He was tenacious, angry and tuff but my bro was still a fair guy. He tried to work it out but when the owner told my friend that "him and his jeep could go f*#k themselves" he went to war.
My Dad still brings up my crazy best friend and remembers him driving all over town with big signs, on the side of his jeep, telling everyone to not buy from the dealership. He picketed the place and organized many other people to picket the place. Hundreds of friends joined in on the campaign to destroy this man and his dealership, they waited outside, told people not to buy the cars, ruined sales, told everyone who walked by what had occured and blocked up sh#t with all their vehicles. It turned into a place folks would stop off at in-between partys.
I don't remember how long the thing went on but neither man ever relented. The guy was put out of business within a year and my friend ended up with a crushed knee when someone rolled a car down the road, pinning him against another car, while he stood with his sign...lol..
Jeep never go fixed..

No moral..
I suppose sometimes the fix it job is good enough and sometimes it aint...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 10, 2011 - 12:29am PT
All this thread needs to get back on its feet is merchandising.

Let's see.
We have Wings of Steel: The Climb.
Wings of Steel: The Book.
Wings of Steel: The Film.
I think we need Wings of Steel: The Film about the Thread - An epic and inspiring chronicle about how the rock climbing community came together over a 3.5 year period to create the most epic thread in Supertaco History.

(I will later go on record claiming that I never said it was the most epic thread in Supertaco History. Then, when you go back to prove that I did, you'll find that it's been changed to read "one of the most epic threads in Supertaco History.")

We could also go with Wings of Steel: The Portable Outhouse. (THAT could have prevented a lot of misunderstanding.)



And just maybe... a Shrieking Mimi doll.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 10, 2011 - 01:27am PT
Shrieking Mimi
squishy

Mountain climber
Sac town
Sep 10, 2011 - 01:28am PT
I think "Movement Over Stone" by drljefe, is the best so far

"A Smear Too Far" by The Larry isn't too bad either..
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Sep 10, 2011 - 01:55am PT
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 10, 2011 - 02:48am PT
I know Ron, already touched on this one but....

O shitter where art thou?

Could be dmt's new motto?

edit
Another koolaide drinker. No surprise here. These guys are not the heros in this saga. I'd say the shitters are the real heros.

anyone notice this sounds alot like a mimi post?

Mike Cowper
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 10, 2011 - 11:39am PT
Now there's a "coz."

I guess if your avatar gets ignored you just make up new ones!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 10, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
And now, here's something we hope you'll _really_ like!

http://kck.st/pZdJhv

Hooraay for Wings of Steel Trailer #2!
Mimi

climber
Sep 10, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
GnomeBoy, I bet you talk real tough facing yourself in the mirror all alone dontcha?

Posting those pics when I'm not even around is a bit silly.

Time to bend over and assume your standard position waiting for the plastic exploding inevitable, aka, the Blue Buttplug of Truth.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:28am PT
First came the book.



Then the movie.




This is a real review of Screaming Mimi.

Somehow surmounting a creaky script rooted in some crackpot psychiatry, Screaming Mimi creates a somnambulistic, doom-laden mood that keeps you watching, bemused. And that's not easily explained.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:31am PT
I don't know if it has any relationship to the book or the movie, but there is another Screaming Mimi. This one looks more athletic. I'm sure she is a very talented climber.


http://mikernaut.cghub.com/images/page:4/
Mimi

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:37am PT
GnomeBoy, you've got me all wrong. I'm actually howling with laughter. Not much screaming really. This has always been about entertainment. Staying on two total goofs trying to maintain their charade never gets old.

Speaking of mental issues, coz, you really are nuts showing such disrespect to JimD. Attacking one of the nicest, most respected climbing diplomats around really proves what a deluded and arrogant fool you've grown up to be.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:45am PT
There aren't any movies or books or artwork called Laughing Mimi. They're all about Screaming Mimi. I think this was because there was a German artillery piece during WWII that was nicknamed Screaming Mimi. The novel came out in 1949.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:51am PT
Meme has returned to us! HOORAAAAY! *Checks his watch*
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:01am PT
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:06am PT
Mimi

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:09am PT
GnomeBoy and Dweebsie...Reminds me of these guys.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:14am PT
Meme reminds me of this pony:


Please:
Mimi

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:22am PT
Just to show you guys that I care. Here's something I threw together just for the sake of detailed illumination. The official Wings of Steel Calendar/Timeline for May-July 1982 taken directly from the Book of Dik, wherein all hath been revealed. The x-rated version can't be posted here. LOL!





Ten feet per hour seems to be the inspired norm.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 11, 2011 - 01:26am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 11, 2011 - 02:00am PT
Mimi's calendar of the ascent is clearly wrong. It doesn't include any of the parts where they danced on their portahammocks, singing "We're lumberjacks, and we're not so bad". Plus bible study, wanking, and other activities.
Mimi

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 02:02am PT
Anders, see above. The x-rated version can't be viewed here. You'd love it. I think.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 11, 2011 - 02:07am PT
Just to show you guys that I care.

And as we can see, you care quite a bit.


Jaybro asked Richard Jensen what the climb meant for him. We've all seen his response. Your obfuscation is laughable. Mimi, given how important this is to you, what did Wings of Steel mean for you? What significance and meaning, arguments aside, does the climb hold for you, personally?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 11, 2011 - 10:38am PT
mimis calendar would have been like this:

Mon - bitch at other guys i dont know because they are losers and never climb their route because i c&nt

Tues - help SG with his jockstrap and tell him what a god he is while bitchin about WOS boys.

Wed - provide considerate postings on ST with a few hail Steve's and f*ck WOS thrown in for good measure

Thurs - heckle WOS boys because yesterday was "hump" day and didnt get off

Fri - play with my gear, see Thurs.

Sat - sh#t on seventh day adventists holy day, f*#k those guys.

Sun - get a latte and try and make up for a bad humday. if that doesnt work, bitch about WOS on ST about a reoute i never did cuz i c%nt.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
For all those who have asking - the article of our second ascent of Wings of Steel will be published in Rock and Ice magazine. This will be available to read in approximately 4 weeks!

Thanks goes out to everyone who has provided support around this climb. Ammon and I both hope you all will enjoy it!
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Sep 12, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5737377/

The mini-series...worth a watch/rewatch depending
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
the article of our second ascent of Wings of Steel will be published in Rock and Ice magazine. This will be available to read in approximately 4 weeks!


Looking forward to it, Kait. Congrats again on the video funding!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
worth a watch/rewatch depending


The hand gesture when Jensen tells Grossman "You know all you need to get up Wings of Steel if you have the sack" gets me every time.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
Wings Of ButtHurt

Wings Of Repetition


Wings Of Drama


Wings Of WGAF?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Da Dweeb, the only hand gestures I notice is you cupping the ballz of the "One month to climb 2 pitches" crew.

For an errand-boy, you sure do seem invested in this whole sordid affair...and oddly in possession of some 9 year old girl's stash of pony-anime.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
you sure do seem invested in this whole sordid affair...


Oh, and I am. As I have said several times, Mark Smith is my former teacher, a good friend, and has been a very positive influence throughout my life. I want to see him exonerated from the villain label he's had for the past several decades, and I am very happy to see that's generally the way things have worked out.



and oddly in possession of some 9 year old girl's stash of pony-anime.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
Dweeberino- Your fairy fractures are widening...revealing a very pink interior. LOL

And no GnomeBoy once the game is back on?!?

The evil woodland creatures have abducted him and tossed him in above one of those giant Disney waterfalls deep in the forest. Not sure if our hero is wooden or plastique but it might make a difference...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
There has got to be some windowpane floating around here.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 12, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
the most bizarre thing about this thread is the hate and emotion that SG and Mimi have for the FA crew for a route they have never tried nearly 3 decades ago. one must wonder why?
OR

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
Who was Warren J. Harding? How does he fit into all of this?

Do you actually climb?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Your obfuscation is laughable, Steve -

NOW you're getting the hang of it!
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
MH, too much info.

Waaaay too much!!!!!!
Mimi

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
Chicken-eye, you may as well stop wondering. Your utter cluelessness and lack of reading comprehension skills precede you. You're simply a waste of post space.

Dweeber, your self-proclaimed bias and stupidity about climbing begs a question. Have you asked your mentor, Skid, how often he used the drill to get a hook to stay in place so he could stand on it? He made the comment on the ST way back that there are lots of enhancements.

The Book of Dik describes how Bwana left the Valley to handle one of his first lawsuits, this one against his employer for firing him (sound familiar?), and left Skid to re-establish P1 and P2 after the woeful chopping incident.

Bwana wrote in the Book that: Another hook and another. Some needed a little modification. Mark took the tip of the drill and leveled an edge out to better hold the hook. Or rather, to hold it at all.

This is the key question. How many times did they do this? Based on the Book, postings on the ST, their own website, their obvious lack of relevant experience and skills, the preposterous gear assortment that was supported by their pitiful interactions with the 'locals,' and the inordinate amount of time needed to ascend 9 pitches, lead many of us to believe that WOS was a total botch job; a heavily drilled half-height variation that was ascended using countless drilled hook placements.

You can attack me all you like, but I didn't start this controversy, they did.


Now that you're their new groundman, would you mind asking your pals if they provided this topo and gear list to Don Reid for the 1993 Big Walls Guide.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
Mimi OMG is it really possible for you to continue to carry all this hate arround and talk sh#t about a climb that is out of your leauge that you have not and can not climb?
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:59pm PT
It IS possible tradmanclimbs, isn't that unbelievably incredible?










Wow. (shakes head)
Mimi

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
OMG, more pilgrims mistaking ridicule for hate. Spare me the disbelief and read the timeline/calendar posted just upthread and review the topo. Do I need to post the gear list again! Stay tuned for updates from the Super Secret Shitter's Hotline transmitting from atop Delectable Pinnacle. LOL!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Meme-

I'm on break from class right now, so I'll have to be brief.

Mark and Richard made sixteen enhancements.

Exactly sixteen, no more, no less.






Trust me. I just know.
Mimi

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:55pm PT
Authorship of the topo and gear list after class?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:10am PT
Thanks for the heads up Kaitb.

all that's left now for this thread to finish up

...which might take another 1000 posts or so to get cleaned up.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:12am PT
Meme-

It was actually written by Lauren Faust.

Please don't tell Richard I told you that.
Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Now That's funny, Couchie....((Chuckle behind hand))













What?! I didn't say nothin!!!!
S.Leeper

Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:14am PT
who will get post 3k???!!?!?
Mimi

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:22am PT
Dweeb- How did Faust strike this bargain?

How many of the sixteen were Skid's?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:32am PT
mimi,
perhaps we need a new calendar for you, i think you are off today......
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:47am PT
Meme-

You won't like it. It involves ponies.

As to the enhancements, Mark did three on the first pitch, Richard did one on every pitch thereafter except for the odd numbered pitches, on which Mark did one and Richard did one as well. Pitch seven was the exception, on which neither made any enhancements.

Solving for the number of enhancements that Mark made, how many more decades is it going to take before you try something new in your approach to this situation?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:51am PT
who will get post 3k???!!?!?


Apparently I will.


Three thousand forum posts
Exhausting just to think about
How did we reach three thousand forum posts?
The thought of all those forum posts makes me weep.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 13, 2011 - 12:51am PT
#3,001. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. But looking forward to some facts in the R&I article.
Mimi

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:04am PT
How about the number of enhancements Mark used to reestablish the route via The Bogus Start?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 01:49am PT
Sixteen.

Still exactly sixteen.
Mimi

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:04am PT
And the number of the counting shall be three...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAd6gerQoAc&feature=fvst
Gabe

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:35am PT
Damn Kait, almost posted but I over thought the post cuz I did not want to be the 3K poster. Haaaa!! True, I deleted it. All I said was I am looking forward to seeing the finishing touches on Ammons article about you two doing the SA of Wings of Steel.

I would like to know, were there wings on the hooks? It couldn't hurt.

Was the calender posted by mimi from the book on wings? I haven't read the book but reading the days of events made me chuckle.

This thread is the same as the "Sunday Funnies".





Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:55am PT
Three thousand forum posts
Exhausting just to think about
How did we reach three thousand forum posts?
The thought of all those forum posts makes me weep.

There are TWENTY some odd threads with WOS content! I read most of it and it took me forever!

The whole time Steve and Mimi have been attacking Mark and Richard about various things, but never provide answers when asked questions about their records...

This thread has become a broken record, it keeps spewing the same crap!

edit Gabe i think that calendar was mimi's interpretation of the book! :)

edit2 dweeb were you some kind of my little pony fan as a kid or something? :)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 02:57am PT
And THAT, good sir Mike, is my argument for why this thread needs to become about PONIES.

Edit: Mike, in fact, I only got into them last month. I never knew what I'd been missing out on...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:11am PT
D:
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:27am PT
He walked that way. It was important to him.

You know part of what frustrates me about this situation Rokjox, is the fact that I can see that, and respect it.

I'm not saying, mind you, I condone for one moment the extent of what happened in the valley, or since, or the fact that it was based off of assumption rather than evidence. But that point right there?

Yeah. I can respect the hell out of that.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:47am PT
Da_Dweeb f*#ked up the 4channing of this thread. lol.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:51am PT
GDavis - Aye. For some reason I can't post ponies from this computer. Fortunately, that's what edit buttons are for...



Jim - You make some good points here. Seems to gel with my understanding of climbing culture then and how it has changed in the context of the present day. My understanding is that good climbing style at that point in time involved preserving the natural rock as much as you could, and dealing with the situation that the rock itself presented to you to the greatest degree possible.

It's also my understanding that while Yosemite was a mecca for climbers during that time, the focus of climbing has since moved out of the Valley, and isn't nearly so concentrated on aid climbing.

I see comments repeatedly stating some variant of "Who cares it's just an El Cap aid climb from 3 decades ago." And when you get to the end of the day, for most people that's all it was.

For Richard and Mark, however, it was one of the most defining events of their lives. It nearly killed them (and they were nearly killed by their fellow climbers while they were on it), but they saw it through despite all the odds against them, and at the end of the day they came away satisfied with what they did and how they did it. For whatever else may be said, that's a story I can get behind. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from on this.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:21am PT
Mimi, I ain't no f*#kin pilgrim. I also have not and can not climb WOS but I will not seriously bash a route that I have not climbed and NEVER condone clichy bullying. For you to repetedly post that the shitters were heros is sick.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 09:50am PT
Trad, you can't reason with a Mimi meme.


But if you feel you must try, here, take the proper precautions...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 10:06am PT
Anyway, Meme.

Now that I have definitively answered every question you had about Wings of Steel, I think it's only fair you answer my question, hm?

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Sep 13, 2011 - 10:54am PT
African of European?
sorry i had too...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 13, 2011 - 11:35am PT
If we were talking swifts, the question would be: Before or after they too crapped on Richard and Mark...Poo On You III...sort of. LOL
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 11:36am PT
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 13, 2011 - 11:37am PT
So is your spelling...and pinkness
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Steve,

Like I always say,


What say you, Gunsmoke?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 13, 2011 - 03:48pm PT

LOL
Mimi

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:18am PT
Dweebers, not so fast. You never fully answered the topo question. As Ms. Faust wasn't on the FA, she shirley didn't devine the topo and gear list all by her lonesome. Please divulge.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, tradman. Do you believe in the value of being honest and forthright about your climbs and climbing style?

Hey Big Mike from BC, you obviously don't read for comprehension very well either. Which pressing question goes unanswered? You must be referring to something specific?

The timeline is not entirely my interpretation, it's all straight from the Book. I totally held back but I'm working on the whining version now. It will cover Bwana's ankle injury and how many times he turned it on the 'talus slope' (trail to the base), his obsession with rainfly condensation, and Skid's constant battle over quitting. The countless insulting jabs taken by Bwana toward the valiant and trusting Skid provide no end of humor.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:28am PT
I'm sorry Mimi, you seem to be under the impression that this thread is still about the climb.

But as it really hasn't been for a very long time, and given that just about everyone but you is sick of going around in circles and has moved on, this thread is no longer Wings of Steel.
Mimi

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Dweeb, sadly, it has always been about the climb and the way your pals did it. We can see that this is very painful for you. They made choices, now they have to live with them. This has only gone in circles because your pals won't be honest about what they did. Very simple stuff.

As one of our esteemed STers has pointed out: about 175 holes could easily allow you to drill your way up the entire 1200 foot slab. Actually, I reckon a 6' person could easily drill a ladder with about 155 holes up 1200 feet.

This pretty much says it all. The books states 124 for the non-anchor hole count. Pretty darned close.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:02am PT
Memerson J. Grosslady -

You know, it's fine. I understand that you are still trying to earn your Cutie Mark for rock climbing ethic superjudge. Keep up the good work! You'll get it someday!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:32am PT
Dude,

Ya gotta knock it off with the damn purple horses. It's enough to make a guy puke.

I'm going climbing on El Cap now. Something hard, something scary, we shall see....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:35am PT
Yeah, pink and purple ponies have that effect. Not quite suicide-inducing, but not far from it.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:44am PT
notFERnothin, but when a known pedoPH tells ya that yer way too into the cutesie little kid pony sh#t, that might juss maybe tell ya sumthin!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:48am PT
Well, if folk object so hearty-like, I suppose I could leave you with my OTHER favorite day program for 9 year olds...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGPIQ72-2Vg
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Sep 14, 2011 - 10:49am PT
Yeah, lay off the damn ponies and other cute stuff ! Enough is way more than enough already !

And Mimi thanks for beginning to sound like an adult. It will get easier with practice.

I'm just curious, from a historical perspective, about what actually happened in the Valley during the FA, both on the wall and on the ground.

I was climbing there before and after the FA of Wings of Steel, but only heard vague rumors about the route and controversy.

The current thread on the life and death of Walter Bonatti shows that controversy and attendant character defamation in climbing is nothing new.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 14, 2011 - 10:58am PT
Richard and Mark have virtually nothing in common with Bonatti. They climb and it stops there.

Bwana and Skid were clearly unprepared and far from competent while mired down in a half ton of crap to confirm that status. Once they finally left the ground and spent the next nine days camped out at the top of the second pitch the way backwards became clear. No need for further abuse by the community until they began to seek fame and acclaim with slideshows books and articles.

The Wannabees started out as a joke among serious wall climbers and hey are going to finish out as such despite every effort, machination and device that Bwana has mustered up.

There will be no redemption here...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2011 - 11:07am PT
Richard and Mark have virtually nothing in common with Bonatti.

...except controversy and attendant character defamation.


Defame on...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 14, 2011 - 11:12am PT
Thanks for your permission...

If you have followed this controversy in depth then you know that it far from one-sided. Bwana and Skid are captains of destiny...LOL
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
If you have followed this controversy in depth then you know that it far from one-sided.

This "controversy" exists in the minds of half a dozen "serious wall climbers," and their various syncophants. Anyone who has spent time around "serious wall climbers" knows they are mostly seriously f*#ked up individuals. Some of them grow up, some of them don't.

I suppose it is about permission...who gives it and who needs it. You obviously don't need anyone's permission to carry on your 30 year elitist vendetta/tantrum. The fact is that thirty years ago somebody put up a climb without your permission in a style you disapprove of. So What?


Never said it was one-sided. IMO no ones' reputation is being enhanced by this spectacle. But you may want to ponder whose is being tarnished.


I personally during that time didn’t care one way or the other. It was their thing, not mine.

I don’t own any rock so they can do whatever they want.
- Werner Braun, page one wos thread.


Edit: WTF is a Captain of Destiny...and why is he laughing out loud?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 14, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
My only negative memory of the Valley in the 70's was the elitist attitude and snobbery of "some" of the Valley locals. While it didn't effect me personally, I felt it was wrong not to welcome newcomers and help ease their transition.

edit: I always admired "outsiders" like Jimmy Dunn and Henry Barber who came to the Valley and got it done.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
Other than Werner, I'd argue there are and were no valley "locals". Its just a bunch of climbers passing through.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 14, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
In the early 70's there was a group of climbers, myself included, who were consistently there for the seasons if not the whole year. Werner was a member of that group who chose to make the Valley his home.

edit: Silver, I don't know, I'm not there very often.
SGropp

Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
Sep 14, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
Keep it up !

Now this conversation may actually be going somewhere .
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 14, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
When I climb a rock I make myself and only myself happy. It's totally selfish. I'm not solving world hunger, I'm not feeding the hungry or healing the sick, I'm climbing a fricken stupid rock!

30 years ago some guys climbed a new route on El Cap. Some other guys didn't like those guys. The route the guys put up had a few chipped holds but certainly far less than the most chipped route on the cliff at that time.

30 years later they are still being ragged for their climb.

No doubt, somewhere in all that time, somewhere in the world someone has been murdered and the relatives of the deceased have forgiven the murderers, but 30 years later, the guys who did a first ascent on El Cap are still getting ragged on.

It's simply amazing! It's almost beyond comprehension!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
This post really clarified for me what the current controversy is about:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=924488&msg=924488#msg924488

Steve Grossman:
From the October 1986 issue of Climbing, this is the third and last classic Valley wall survey. Written in the midst of the Platinum Age by my partner, the ever snappy and old school, Charles Cole.

Hmm the "Platinum age", we had roughly the 60s Golden Age, The 70s Stonemaster era, now we have special status for the 80s too! And someone needs to be the leaders of that era right? Someone needs to be a part of valley climbing history.

From the obviously unbiased article:

Jolly Roger: Despite added bat hook holes, still no 2nd ascent. Attempts have suffered 120 and 200 foot falls.

Wings of Steel: Almost every other placement is a bolt. Inexperienced kids, having never climbed El Cap before, spent over 30 days on the wall, then had the temerity to hype their route with slide shows and articles.

The funny thing is that all the controversy and sh#t only increased interest in WoS. e.g. "Wings of Steel is one of the most difficult and the most controversial climb on Yosemite's El Capitan." So all the libel has mainly served to promote the climb. Perhaps it should be called "The Steel Age" ;-)
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
For the record I always thought of The Grand Voyage as the defining big wall climb of that era. Following Yvon's idea of taking Yosemite big wall skills into uncompromising and difficult alpine environments.
WBraun

climber
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
"Wings of Steel is one of the most difficult and the most controversial climb on Yosemite's El Capitan."

The most difficult climbs on the Captain are the free routes.

Look at the Nose for example.

Standing in aid ladders is going backwards .......
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 14, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
Touche Werner!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:13am PT
"Wings of Steel: Almost every other placement is a bolt."

Must be true. How else could Ammon have taken all those forty- and fifty-footers?

Parochialism was alive and well here in 1998 when Tomaz Humar arrived from Slovenia to solo Reticent Wall. Nobody would give him a topo - I was the first. Gave him beta after we got down, and he sent.
Mimi

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:36am PT
pete, who are you quoting?
Mimi

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:37am PT
It's obvious that so many of you are quick to question the detractors simply for questioning their claims. Why are you so closed-minded to ignore how they met the challenges of this route? If we were all on the ground in the C4 lot discussing this as it unfolded in 1982, there's no way the majority wouldn't still be in agreement that this particular party was way out of their league in what they were prepared for and set out to do. Again, you people are not getting the 10 feet per hour reality. Read the timeline; it's straight out of their book!

Based on the substance of the posts downing the criticism of the FA, there's a clear bias founded in a lack of open-mindedness and acceptance of the facts as written directly by the FA ad infinitum. It is clearly a support-the-perceived-outsider/underdog mentality. You people simply refuse to acknowledge the facts and haven't followed the story from the beginning.

Leaving aside the issue of how many drilled hooks, Deucie and others have already calculated that this half-height variation is even more drill-dependent than the Wall of the Early Morning Light. These guys roared onto the ST proclaiming "Who better than us," "Someone is going to do the slab one day and why shouldn't it be us," and "We've been wronged" and "We're owed an apology from the climbing community at large," especially SteveG, for citing them as a cursory example of what not to do in an established area on an FA. You are all discounting the entire group of highly skilled wall climbers of the day that watched this unfold and were rightfully critical and pissed off to the point of doing something never before heard of to another party. Could it be that there's something about these guys and their personalities and mannerisms that warrant such negative reaction?

They claim to be knowledgable of the standards of the day and what had been done. As the book clearly maps out, they were clueless and amazingly ignorant of the most basic climbing fundamentals and learned skills.

The prodding it has taken to get any stretch of truth from these guys is ridiculous. And they're the ones entering the public arena to spray about their climbs with slide shows, articles, RC.com and the ST (where they haven't been well received). Sorry, Steve and I just couldn't roll out the welcome wagon.

First, it was none, then it was a handful, then it was 12-point font sized drill holes, now it's three handfuls (16 out of 151 hook placements). All of this controversy in the name of answering the simple question asked for any modern route; what is the hole count?, aka, the number of times the drill touches the rock to get the job done, big or small.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:40am PT
Looking at the bright side, there seems to be agreement that they weren't rap-hooking.
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:47am PT
i've not commented yet and find certain things Mimi is saying in her last post to be distasteful and untrue to the spirit of climbing-these wall climbing masters, i know who they are, but they don't own El Cap, they don't make rules, and the way they expressed their distaste was childish and vulgar. Yeah, they were upset, but wasn't there a better way to let the WoS team know that-it's playground bully mentality at best.
As far as their personalities, again, are we in high school, that one clique decides who is the coolest and the rest fall in line-so what if they were weird, or christian or plain old as#@&%es. Hell at one time all climbers were perceived that way, and we thought nothing of it. Grow up, live and let live.
Mimi

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:54am PT
David, like I said. This never happened to a party before. And the crew that did the deed was a very small group. You're another one being suckered into this playground bully BS. The whole persecution hot air balloon has been losing altitude for a long time. It's stragglers like you that keep it afloat. Own the rock, how ridiculous! Why not just say 'claim dominion' and get it over with. LOL! How about them showing some respect in the first place?

Are you a wall climber?

Thanks, Rox. Amazing mix of allegiances, eh?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:24am PT
Rok, judging by many of these posts I adivse you to change your WERE to STILL ARE.
Mimi

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:25am PT
California's a tough crowd. I beat that rap. LOL! Nobody I knew at the time felt compelled to pooh on anyone. But reading about the French Mudfalconers and the 'jealous locals' poohing really cracked me up. What a magical time to be ripped in the Valley.

Rox, yep. Obviously good point.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 02:36am PT

The prodding it has taken to get any stretch of truth from these guys is ridiculous.

Here is one thing (of many) that I don't understand in Mimi's posts. I have followed this saga and the WOS guys seems to have been very clear about what they have done during the FA and have tried to answer other peoples questions.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:42am PT
Mimi, You have repetedly posted that the shitters were heros. At least in the last day or so you are acting a tiny bit like an adult but up untill now it has been on about a 7th grade level on your end.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 15, 2011 - 07:41am PT
Mimi's heroes, maybe...




Taking a shite in front of someone, or onto property, is the lowest move of a human being--even animals act better than this.



The old fockers need to be buried in the grave with what they proffered onto others --SH#TE
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Sep 15, 2011 - 09:46am PT
The instigators can only be heros to a 7th grade mind or less. Kinda like playing with g.i. joes. You either outgrow it, or you are comic-book-guy mumbling to himself about 'superheros' all day long while adults wish their kids wouldn't go near him.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Many of us we initially on the side of the detractors until these threads.

We believed what had been written and believed the claims of it being a bolt ladder. But through these threads we have learned that a lot of what the detractors have said is not true. Plus the detractors saying things like the shitters are heroes immediately makes them lose credibility in my mind. Anyone who thinks that is in any way justified can't be trusted. If you are missing that level of common human decency where does it end?

What is completely justified is climbing it, THEN chopping if warranted.

The FA team did have their part in the controversy. They could have repeated the hardest routes of the day first. I don't think they were required to, but it would have undercut a lot of the criticism.

The time on the route and the amount of gear is simply personal choice. Yes a better party typically takes less time, but that doesn't really effect anyone's experience but their own.

They didn't prove their competence before WoS, but they did afterwards by repeating hard routes, so they couldn't have been that incompetent.

They have been MORE than forthcoming with any information requested. And much of the 'ammunition' used against them comes straight from their own book.

So far I haven't heard anything the WoS team said proven to be false. But I have heard either false or unsupported claims from the detractors.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 15, 2011 - 11:59am PT
LOL! How about them showing some respect in the first place?


for you?, Grossman? El Cap?, SAR?, the Awhanichi? Royal? Warren?

Begininning to think Mimi=LEB
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
LEB had more credibility as a climber.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 15, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
apparently they owed the shitters/heroes RESPECT!!!111666
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
I always thought the guys who couldn't free climbed hard, turn to aid climbing and tried to make it something it's not


Hey! I resemble that remark!

;-)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 15, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
Well, I'm not dead yet so there are still a few NIADs left in me as well as a Freerider trip. One of these days I'll do a totally free climbing trip in the Valley!

Even still though, vertical backpacking is pretty dang fun!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
The FA team did have their part in the controversy. They could have repeated the hardest routes of the day first. I don't think they were required to

Required to?

Those guys didn't owe the shitters a f*#king thing, ever.

I said I don't think they were required to. However they could have made life much easier on themselves if they repeated a test piece first.

I think it's very cool to walk up to El Cap and do an FA as your first time up. But they were doing a route different than all others that required hundreds of bolts. And they were spending over a month doing it. The nature of the climb was going to attract concern. And the valley IS the crucible of American climbing, people ARE going to care about what happens there and statements about the state of climbing do happen there.

If you walk down a sidewalk in South Central with a Rolex on your wrist and you get jacked it's not your fault and it in no way justifies stealing, but I'm of the opinion that it's smart to do what you can to prevent dumb sh#t from happening rather than take a long fall from your high horse.

At this point we know the climb isn't a bolt ladder and the shitters owe an apology for the shitting and chopping a route without the courage and respect to climb it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
But they were doing a route different than all others that required hundreds of bolts.

Assuming that the WoS team did use hundreds of bolts and holes - I guess we'll know the facts quite soon - how does that make it different from say the Nose, Tis-sa-Ack, the WOEML, etc? (Earlier routes, as it happens.) Looking at it another way, once we know what actually happened, how will WoS stack up in terms of drilled holes, 'enhancements' and 'chiseled/trenched placements'/metre, as compared to other routes of the same period?

Whether or not the WoS team were 'worthy' to do a new route on El Cap, and regardless of their vertical camping style - again, nothing much new - the hard fact of how much drilling was done seems an objective measure.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Sep 15, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
To an extent the bullying was just a reaction to something that was long out of style, sieging. Just as if your kids went to school sporting the 80's preppy look today they'd be laughed at and heckled, applying Hardings methods of the late 50's and early 60's to a wall in the early 80's was seen as 20 years out of date.

Think about it, with enough time, anybody could drill their way up El Cap. And hence the following assumption would be, anybody that was on a route that long, had to be drilling their way up blank rock.

It sounds like the reality of the route is different than a mindless bolt ladder, but it appears the perception by many was that the route was just that.

Now, did El Cap need the protection of the bullies to keep her from becoming a multifaceted bolt ladder? I dunno, I figure such mind numming drudgery of pitch after pitch of hand drilling and bolting is self policing. It just isn't fun.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 15, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
These are posts of "Meaty" not "Meaty."


Not me Pete. My account was hacked years ago and that person is messing with my account again. I don't delete my posts.

Edit: Many posts from years ago in this thread were written by the person(s) that have hacked my account here. Weak!


Pete. If you look at the comments from many years ago even Fatty (i think) noticed and a few others saying "are there two meaty's??" and such. Many posts from back then I DID NOT write, same from the other day and the hacker deleted a few of them.
The fact is someone did make there way into my account and deleted posts including some from the other day, and made posts. But obviously you're just not bright enough to notice, so sad for you, f*#king moron.

I stand by what a write and that includes my feeling that I could care less what you think about me or anything else for that matter. You're full of hype and innuendo calling me a lunatic and expect what from that? Respect? You're just another supertopo wanker.

Pete, you sure are full of delusional speculations. Why do you always ask stupid questions full of insults and expect and answer.

Edit: Again, more speculation from you, I noticed someone making comments using my account years ago, so did many others you dim bulb.
And more delusional questions from you? Why am I not surprised?
How to you suppose one is gonna explain the actions of someone else hacking their account?
You're just being a fool, eh?

Ha, ha, ha! Not only do I know someone created another account, but someone also got my password for this account, used my e-mail, sent loads of dumb emails, posted tripe, and deleted those posts along with some of mine.....Russ.
Good bet it was the guy with the animal nickname.....Russ.

Funny how the dual account is now gone and this thread was scrubbed of all the posts years ago when some asked how it was possible another account was formed with exactly the same name, Meaty. Obviously an inside job, the only way that could've happened. Who scrubbed this thread?? Must be the cowards that just deleted their post under another phony handle "Meaty."..............COWARDS!!

EDIT: WOW! Looks like way more posts than I originally thought have been scrubbed. The WOS POS team has gone out of their way to revise history, One post from Werner that defended me is gone. Once he realized that Meaty was me and Randy Wenzel and the WOS chumps were accusing me of chopping and shitting he said it wasn't me that sh#t on the ropes, the cowards have removed that post and much much more. Clearly the WOS movie crew and revisionist historians are afraid of the truth. COWARDS!!!!!

So obviously they've gotta scrub the thread to revise history because of the upcoming movie: The Cricle Jerk of the Wannabes.

Sorry, no rest, especially for the wos pos team and their pals here on ST scrubbing this thread of many, many posts.
Looks like they're afraid of the truth that they've been using another account with my handle............COWARDS AND LIARS!!

Meaty, do you have multiple personality disorder? You want us to believe that for years you (Dr Jekyll) AND and your imaginary impostor (Mr. Hyde) "shared" the same account, with you making all the good posts and him making all the bad posts? And you want us to believe that in spite of all that, you were just too stupid to change your password, or contact the site administrators, or just get a new account?

And you are also claiming that there is an "inside job" by the "WOS team" where they have somehow hacked supertopo and are deleting posts, including your's and at least one of Werner's?

Did you hit your head falling out of a tree at a job site and become delusional? Have you been spending too much time stump grinding?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 15, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
Hey, most of us like to move quickly and climb in good style but we all have our moments when that does not happen. Do we deserve to be shat appon simply for moveing too slowly,climbing a line the locals did not think would go and not kissing the right arses?
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Sep 16, 2011 - 01:10am PT
mimi i've only done one tiny route on el cap; i'm no big shot or player. but since neither of us have climbed Wings i guess we both have the same right to comment on the climb. the main thing i was really talking about is attitude-it is just so small minded and parochial, it seems so f*#ked to me-whenever i've climbed in new places people have been welcoming, friendly helpful. even in the valley. admittedly i am not new routing but still...
Mimi

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:03am PT
David, it was not a parochial knee jerk response. These guys were a sorry lot. They deserved nothing less. Actually, more would have been better to stop them from doing the route at all.

Riley, what page is that on? I don't recall that statement. They do claim at least seven (7) other parties tried to do the slab, but could not. I wonder who they were. I say BS, yet another lie about their ascent. And for people to compare this party to other early ascents of El Cap is embarrassing. So much for studying history. These guys do not compare to the other parties who had to deal with adversity as outsiders. Huge difference. These guys cannot be placed in the same category by a long shot.

Hudon, do you define yourself as a narcissist? Just wondering.

wos fans, I laugh in your general direction!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY
Mimi

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:20am PT
Riles, there is absolutely nothing proud about anything these guys did.
raymond phule

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:23am PT
So what was so bad with their ascent?
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Sep 16, 2011 - 03:44am PT
About what tolman_paul said about style evolving, one of my first longish routes in Valley was the N Face of Middle. Must have been '86 or so. I think it was called a grade V in Roper's book, so us being careful and cautious, and not too well informed, we hauled a small pack. We got most of the way up, but then bailed and rapped down. One evening I explained this to Walt Shipley, probably after he explained a Southern Belle or Keeler Needle story to me. His eyes opened a bit, and he smiled, and said "you hauled on the N Face?...", but he left it at that, an uncharacteristically mild response. Later on I realized how ridiculous our approach to the route was.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 06:25am PT
Riles, there is absolutely nothing proud about anything these guys did.

And from your perspective that's true, Mimi.

Just remember, we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 08:54am PT
dammage is done./ How can anyone have respect for someone who condones the crapping incident. SG himself at one point of this thread wrote that the shitting incident was no big deal.. where is the ethics in that?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 16, 2011 - 09:51am PT
Riles, there is absolutely nothing proud about anything these guys did.

MIMI, LETS ASSUME THAT EVERYONE HERE AGREES WITH YOU ON THIS.

NOW WHAT? WE JUST KEEP HAMMERING IT OVER AND OVER? They did a route. Took em forever. So what. It was years ago, and the route just saw it's 2nd ascent. A full report, nay, full VIDEO ...WOOT!, will be coming along soon from one of the best aid climbers on the planet. OK, maybe that was before he got old LOL...but the point is, why not let it lie and see what Ammon and kaite say about it? You are not changing any minds here, repeating what you have already said for the 12th time won't do it either. 13th time? I lost count.

That's my thoughts. If you want to do anything productive, at least report on the condition of the shitters. Who they were, where they are now, etc etc. Why is it a big secret?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:02am PT
Dweeb, give it a rest. you are not a climber....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:04am PT
Couch. It is a big secret because it was a shamefull act.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 10:18am PT
Hmm. Fair enough, Tradman.
wonderbread

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:07am PT
Due to this thread, the only conclusion that we can safely make is that the Dirty Waffle is the act of choice in the Mr and Mrs Mimi residence.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
LG,

Uncontested. I meant it as an observation, not a sword.

She holds the perception that nothing they did on the climb is proud, that comes from her own bias of thirty years. Same as my belief that they did something valid and that was a hallmark of their perseverance comes from my own bias of what I know of the climbers and of their experience.

We will always view any evidence presented through our own personal filters. It's why this thread keeps going in circles, and it's why I don't really think that at the end of the day Ammon's article or even movie will wind this to a close. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented, folk are pretty much going to keep seeing things in whatever way they choose to see it.

“People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for.”
― Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird
bringmedeath

climber
la la land
Sep 16, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
Steve Grossman loves nuts... micro ones!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
Rox – I never questioned Steve’s rep. What I said was “never provide answers when asked questions about their records...”

I can tell Steve has a strict ethic simply by the way he continues to act 30 years later. I applaud him for his clean efforts, but does he require everyone to attend his church? It is akin to a Christian saying you must be of his faith to go to heaven.

I always thought climbers settled these matters by going and climbing the route and chopping the bolts when they didn’t find them necessary.

What I meant are these two questions from Richard for Steve and Mimi.

Steve: “How many crystals YOU have removed from a copperhead seam, from a crumbling corner, or from a beak slot! So, how about giving US a count, Steve? Hold YOURSELF to the same standard! I want to hear the number of incidents and the grams of rock affected. Or perhaps even you can recognize this stupidity as just what it is: stupidity.“

Mimi: “Do YOU ever climb, much less put up FA's?”

This is the origin for these two questions

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&msg=963953#msg963953

I have challenged YOU to produce similar counts for your routes (it is obviously a HUGE issue in your mind, which it was not in ours), and you have steadfastly refused to even consider the idea, much less produce the numbers. Surely you know (since you seem to think that we do) how many crystals YOU have removed from a copperhead seam, from a crumbling corner, or from a beak slot! So, how about giving US a count, Steve? Hold YOURSELF to the same standard! I want to hear the number of incidents and the grams of rock affected. Or perhaps even you can recognize this stupidity as just what it is: stupidity.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=236000

JM has admitted that it is common practice (even by himself) to knock flakes off to make room for placements. He seems to suggest that this is infrequent. I want an ACCURATE tally (along with some reason to think that he has any clue)!
You have accused me of "insulting" JM, so I want the quote where I supposedly "insult" him. And YOU tout him as your own prophet of purism. So, to you I say: unless you can produce for me an ACCURATE tally of "every time the drill touched the rock" AND every time the pick of a hammer touched the rock "to remove a flake" for any reason on, say, his last two routes, then it becomes PAINFULLY obvious that you are attempting to hold Mark and I to a higher standard of honesty, memory, AND "purity" than you demand of your own heroes.
Do YOU ever climb, much less put up FA's? IF so, then I want that tally from you as well, and I want to know what route this tally represents.
If you're not ready to produce a NAME for yourself, what routes you have EVER done (especially FA's), AND the modification tally (remember: EVERY time you moved ANY bit of rock, however TINY, in order to help or make a placement happen!) for yourself and for your hero's routes, then you are just spewing and not worth any further response.

I see that GC already bugged Mimi about this a month ago on this last thread but she probably missed it because it was an old thread. ;)

Tradman hit the nail on the head!

Hey, most of us like to move quickly and climb in good style but we all have our moments when that does not happen. Do we deserve to be shat appon simply for moving too slowly, climbing a line the locals did not think would go and not kissing the right arses?

The answer is NO! No one ever deserves to be treated this way. Not for any reason!
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
Yes they should. For any reason Mimi deems appropriate as a result of yet a third parties' skills.



So there are great gymnists. Mimi hangs out with some. She says it is OK to crap in the gym bags of the new kids who take longer on the balance beam since her friends balance faster and don't use chalk.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Sep 16, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
Ammon posted this on the the rock fall thread, but I thought fits here as well.

While we were on WOS, we experienced two rock falls on Middle Cathedral. Here's a link to the short vid.

http://vimeo.com/28221780
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Sep 17, 2011 - 12:18am PT
I do have to say. I love the ending of that video. Ammon says: "Watch me". During those couple of minutes, he was on some super thin edge with a hook while we watched the rock fall. YARRR!!!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 17, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Tooth! LOL! Exactly.

Kait- Holy Crap! :)
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 17, 2011 - 01:34am PT
Great video! YAargh. "Watch Me!" Indeed.

Brings back memories of the PO Wall, leading the old "crux" pitch, given A5 in the yellow Meyers guide (prolly A1++ now). With Gobee, 1983.

Late afternoon, fixed head after fixed head, rumble, rumble, RUMBLE! A storm rolled in, hard, black and fast. Vicious lightning and torrential rain. And over on the Cathedrals, we watched a cascade roaring down the north face. Great boulders began rolling down, and entire trees.

We were transfixed, horrified. Hard to watch, impossible to turn away. Anyone on the DNB or nearby routes would have been killed while we watched, powerless to help or do anything. A weird, butterflies-in-stomach, doomy feeling. Seemed pretty likely that folks would be over there climbing, as it had been fine weather all day, and not long before (though, we found out later, apparently no one had been over there) And yeah: I cried and whimpered, not sure whether to be more scared of the copperheads or the mad weather: WATCH ME!

A couple minuted later a fixed copperhead blew, sending me for a screaming 50-plus-footer. Sort of a nice way to relieve the tension.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 17, 2011 - 01:46am PT
Crunch- Great story! Nothing like a good whip to wake you up from a daze! :)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Sep 17, 2011 - 11:23am PT
Yeah, Kait, what is it about you guys and rockfall, eh? Is there that much passion between you two that anything unstable nearby collapses?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 17, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
Every time I hear/say HOLY SPHINCTER! it's like a tribute to Dano.

Great video! It's always trippy to me that rock falls so fast but the clouds of dust are so big and hang around so long.
Prod

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 09:48am PT
Did someone tell us who the poopers wee yet?

Prod.
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Sep 18, 2011 - 11:42am PT
no and they never will so drop it and get on to some real climbing talk, or go home!
Prod

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
Geeez Chez,

Bit cranky today?
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Sep 18, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
I made "his and her's" T-shirts
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 18, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Your models should be sitting on the crapper ;)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 21, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
Just to keep things in perspective.

http://vimeo.com/26971199

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1614748&msg=1614748#msg1614748
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 21, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
Cool Hand Hook

Enemy Of The Steel

Inherit The Wings

A Few Good Turds
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
Where did Steve and Mimi go? Are the questions i re-posted really that scary? :)
jsb

Trad climber
Bay area
Sep 28, 2011 - 03:29am PT
Anybody know when the article comes out? (It's gonna be in Rock & Ice, right?)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:07am PT
Oh! Have we started again?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Oct 1, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
A Hook too Far

JSB- Kait b
For all those who have asking - the article of our second ascent of Wings of Steel will be published in Rock and Ice magazine. This will be available to read in approximately 4 weeks!

Thanks goes out to everyone who has provided support around this climb. Ammon and I both hope you all will enjoy it!

Dweeb- No just seeing if Steve and Mimi were around. I am looking forward to the article.

Now in a time honored thread tradition i will bump your ponies with mountains.


Edit: Date of that post was Sep 14
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 2, 2011 - 10:03am PT
I'm trying to decide if I should read it in the bathroom. Of course no disrespect to K and A.

Prod.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 2, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
Always read WOS material where cleanup is easiest!

[Editor: Scanned images of copyrighted material removed due to request by copyright owner]

Oh Pink Pony, next best thing to a Dik as you are, tell me true...

Where DID your pals get any microflake hooking and copperheading experience on lead prior to leaving the ground on WOS?

Only one mention of hooks in all these route descriptions and the topos.

After all these years, I've never gotten an answer from Richard and Mark about any relevant wall experience beyond the Riverside Quarry routes so thoroughly documented by Jensen and Smith after their terrifying six months at it!

Richard did claim to have soloed the South Face of the Washington Column in somewhere between two and ten days but this isn't mentioned in the Book of Dik as it intereferes with the "chosen for greatness" angle.

Oh, and is WOS a P6 route?

If not that one then Winds of Change or Ring of Fire?

Pink Pony edits---all better!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
next best think
after their terrrifying
Only one mention of a hooks
it intereferes with

You might want to do some proofing of your own there, Brony.


Edit -- Almost there. Still need to change the fourth one to "interferes" you see.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
Childish.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
Elegant. In one word you've captured the running theme of this here thread, Mark. =)
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Random climbing shots (rock climbing.com) from Riverside Quarry and two videos---more available on Youtube, by the way.











http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmQyOmAlOHI&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OvlHWW4RUE&feature=related
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
I chatted with Ammon during the FaceLift - he helped with pouring beer. Not to give away secrets, but I'm looking forward to their report on the climb.
WBraun

climber
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
Riverside Quarry

Not bad at all for LA. What's wrong with that place?

It looks cool .....
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Oct 2, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Yeah, looks as good as any stone to take a hammer and steel to (eh, aid slingers, all fair game for the hardware?) --right up there with your Capitan.


Rock is rock and loses dignity when a piece of steel pounds on it--'cept for Ringing Rocks, now that place is music when hammers hit it !
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Oct 2, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
What my opposite said--AND to get that ridiculous picture that fattfraud posted at the top of the last page...

You must be the lowest form of aid climber there is, fatty--buying gear to use it as a parody prop, cause you don't need one of those to climb one of your avatar mountains surely...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:52am PT
All right. I just finished my paper, so I have time to respond to your earlier post, Steve.

However, the more I consider our continued process together, I confess that I am at a loss to see a point in doing so. Sure, I could gather the information you’re asking for and post it up here, make some kind of attempt at empirical or philosophical validation of Mark and Richard’s skills or approach while throwing in some kind of jab at you or Mimi. But ultimately, looking over 4 years of posting history, I’m not seeing that as being overmuch beneficial or getting us anyplace other than where we still are. It’s just more of the same point/counterpoint-attack/counterattack pattern that’s been going on between you/Mimi and Richard/Mark for years. Those two are much more qualified to speak of the details of their climb than I am, but not much seems to be gained through that approach anyway.

I’ve mentioned it before, maybe it’s time we try doing something different in this dance. The fact of the matter is that while I will never see what happened in the valley as anything but an unwarranted violation of personal rights, it’s also true that I understand your point of view on a lot of this stuff. It’s 1982 in Yosemite Valley, and here come a couple of young kids barely out of high school with no reputation in that community to speak of – unknown and apparently untested by most climbers’ standards – walking into the valley and stating the intention to put up a route on the Great Slab of El Cap. The way they talk about it plus their perceived lack of experience paints a picture to you and others that they’ll end up drilling and bolting their way all the way up the slab, breaking every rule of good, ethical climbing and desecrating the rock. It makes sense that you and the other climbers in the valley at the time would take action to prevent this scenario from happening. What I’m saying here is that yes, where you and others were coming from at the time makes a certain amount of sense. And I can see how it’s a viewpoint that you would not compromise on even now.

I guess that’s all I have - or intend - to say at the moment. Given that we’ve all passed plenty of water since the events of Wings of Steel, I’m thinking that the time has come for us to start building bridges instead of continuing to build walls.

If you want to, we could speak privately via PM rather than publicly where it’s more difficult to have that kind of conversation.



Though, admittedly, I would be disappointed not to be able to post at least a few more of the pony pictures I’ve been saving. Some of these are real gems…
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:15am PT
Just the facts Dweebsie...that's what I'm after. You are involved here simply because your pals won't remain at the table once they start looking foolish past a point which has been cyclical over the years.

The dialog has always been right here but your involvement as spokespony is just more of the same from Richard and Mark. People come around just as you have and realize that these gents have big credibility gaps. There won't be anything to come back to this time but a Lake of Fire. Hang tight, you'll see.

More silly Pink Ponies are just going to make folks bark at you again but have at it anyhow!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 10:31am PT
Well Steve, I must confess I'm somewhat disheartened, but I also acknowledge that I can't make this go any differently.

For the record, do not make the mistake of believing that I have "come around" to your point of view, or that I'm condoning the actions of you or others. I'm simply saying that I understand that you and others feel differently than I do, and why.

Further, you aren't entitled to anything from Mark and Richard. As for why they're gone, as far as I can tell they've just come to grips with the fact that there's simply no way to hold a conversation with you that will go any differently than it has for the past 3 decades.

I guess that's all there is to say.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 3, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
You must be the lowest form of aid climber there is, fatty-


Fatty's no aid climber....
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
Heh heh. I was in the R&I office ten days or so ago and have a copy of the article.

I ain't spilling a drop.

On other news, Ammon went up with another partner and did the 2nd of Erik Kohl's "Hole World" after WOS.

R&I ia pretty cool. Even the old farts all still climb 5.12 to 5.13, and are putting up FA's left and right. Some of the youngsters are doing .14's at the least.

So it isn't like they aren't climbers. There are more vein filled forearms in that place than at, well, anywhere that I have seen.
Gene

climber
Oct 3, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
Base,

Any idea when the R&I WoS piece will come out?

g
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Oct 3, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
I think it is the next issue. It has already gone to the printers.

Amazingly, it has some nice stuff on climbing in the Bay Area. From the pictures it actually looks good. I am staring at a poster of the cover as we speak.

I have to run down from up high to deal with some business stuff now and then. I am totally off the grid where I am staying.

Ammon and Kait are good writers. There is an uber classic line in the article that Duane and I were hollering at each other over some Irish Whiskey a couple of weeks ago.

Super classic line. I wonder if people will notice it.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Oct 3, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
It's not like I had to let WOS go, years ago. I never bought into the drama in the first place.

But I am very much looking forward to reading the write-up. It'll be the first ish of R&I i've flipped through in many, many months.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 3, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
I look forward to mimi setting the record straight on what the second ascent team saw up there.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 4, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
Rock & Ice has published the original topo for Wing of Steel, and that produced by Ammon and Kait.
http://rockandice.com/news/1648-wings-of-steel-original-topo
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Oct 4, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
I picked up a copy of the latest rock and ice today and it has the wings of steel article in it. I thought the writing was good and they shared the experience well, but the overall I disappointed by the lack of good photos and wanting more depth, etc.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:27am PT
Does A3+ mean that the modern ("new wave") grade is A3+ = old school A5?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:29am PT
Nope. It's all A3+ or less these days.
Modern A3+ is SERIOUS BUSINESS.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:29am PT
PDH not DFU

Edit:Pulled from the "Does A5 really exist?"





Steve Grossman


Trad climber
Seattle, WA Oct 22, 2010 - 09:57am PT
A fifty foot fall potential from a spot or placement where one is LIKELY to fall is very real and defined the A5 grade quite adequately pre-Deuce meddling.

Does anyone here actually think that a five storey roped fall, even into space, is trivial?

MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:33am PT
Ammon spilled it via R&I. Classy.

Well, it was a one man climb. KB just hung out on the ledge.

Thought the article was lacking with so many words that R&I allowed.

Topos
http://rockandice.com/news/1648-wings-of-steel-original-topo

Hope the check from R&I helps with the stench of selling out.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:37am PT
Now there, laddy - don't go selling our Kait short. It takes a lot of stones to keep catching someone you love as he takes fifty-foot whippers.

And what, pray tell, do you mean when you write "the stench of selling out"?

[So many falls, and only A3+? Geez, Ammon must not be a very good climber...] {wink}
Gabe

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:03am PT
How is writing about your experiences in any relm, not just climbing, selling out?

Have we met yet MTUCKER?

We should share a beer sometime.

Thanks for the good words Pete. Kate did indeed climb WOS.

Gabe.
icaro

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 02:08am PT
Respect!!!! They Rock!
Way to regulate....
Especially Capt. McNeely.

What a pirate!!!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 5, 2011 - 06:25am PT
Who are the shitters?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Oct 5, 2011 - 08:21am PT
"I purchased it because of plans to do a second ascent of a grade V in SEKI."--fattrad

Sounds like a lie, but only you would know that, right--as no one really cares or checks on your lame climbing boasts.


Which one of your TWO hammers do you plan to use on it, or both? (WOS and NUTCRACKER models)
raymond phule

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 08:45am PT
Can someone tell what was written in the R&I article?


Which one of your TWO hammers do you plan to use on it, or both? (WOS and NUTCRACKER models)

:) Are you really sure that he has TWO hammers?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:36am PT
This route was never A5 to begin with and no different than reported by Thaw, Wilson and company on their one day attempt that ended at the top of pitch #5.

One of the shitters did in fact lead the first and now crux pitch (by the early report from The Shitters Hotline) which should half silence the "gotta do the route to say anything" crowd.

"Tricky but not hard."

No redemption here for Poor Richard, Mark or Pete and his fishing pole!

A3+ Word, Last Word! LOL

Bring on the Pink Ponies of Painful Surprise while you can Dweebsie...


Harrrrr! Me buckos!
raymond phule

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:52am PT
So the last word is that an A5 from 81 is actually considered a new wave A3+ now?

What is the new wave rating of Jolly Rodger?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:55am PT
The Jolly Roger held its A5 grade through the ratings "waves."

No trickery or bullshit on the JR first ascent unlike WOS.
raymond phule

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:56am PT
So the problem with Marks and Rickards FA is that it was only an A3+ according to modern standards?
raymond phule

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:58am PT

No trickery or bullshit on the JR first ascent unlike WOS.

What trickery and bullsh#t? I just don't know what you really complain about even though I have read many of yours and your wife's posts.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:05am PT
If you are actually interested go back to the beginning and follow this whole story. Everything becomes very clear if you read what these guys have said.

I stand behind every statement that I have made about these guys. They are the source of all their own problems in this controversy. They want admiration and respect but haven't earned it and certainly don't give it out to any other wall climbers.

If you don't buy the persecution angle then they are holding an empty bag.

The fact that Richard and Mark won't even show up here at the end speaks volumes about their integrity as climbers. Laughing stock from start to finish.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:06am PT
Hmm. That's all right, Steve. It's feeling a bit Humphrey Bogart in here, and I think you've gone full Queeg.


On the other hand, how can I refuse such a polite request...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:35am PT
Well, so much for a "definitive" account from R&I. They f*#ked it up just like all the other "it ain't been repeated" ballcuppers f*#ked it up. To wit, from the topo page at R&I:

while experienced wall climbers who attempted it were all thwarted, until now.

With 3-4 parties having climbed through the cruxes on the route (Slater, Poedke, Thaw el al) and only bailed due to time or water issues, the claim that they were "thwarted" presumably by the difficulty, is a joke. Why nobody can get this simple aspect of the history correct is baffling...makes for a better story I suppose if you can hookwink the masses into thinking it was just so technically difficult that nodoby had the skills to repeat it.

Sadly, the climbing rags remain unworthy for use as toilet paper, much less as a historical record of the sport.
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
MTucker says SH_ _ that just cries out "Bonehead". KaitB was an integral part of the TEAM that climbed WOS. Ammon respects her skills enough to trust her with his life up there. How many times did Ammon fall??? 15-20 times with a major whipper that dislocated his shoulder. Making comments downplaying her role like MTucker is doing is nothing but ignorance. BUZZ OFF! Gabe....right on.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
MTroll™ is a TOOL and a FOOL...
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
I looked at the original Topo and then Ammons Topo.

It's still a forced route.

Lots of bolts interceded by some hook moves and copperheads all in only 9 pitches.

150 holes in 9 pitches and then another ladder of holes to the Horse Chute.

The copperheading reinforces the forcing.

Whatever.

You guys should give it up on all the character assignations about MTucker Steve G and Mimi and concentrate instead on the metrics of this line itself instead.

That will actually get you somewhere.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Nicely said Werner.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
What Werner said, exactly but NOT what J-Do said (g).
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
Once thing is for sure:

Whole lotta hate

...seems like a waste of time and energy.

You will never get this time back
raymond phule

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:06pm PT

The fact that Richard and Mark won't even show up here at the end speaks volumes about their integrity as climbers. Laughing stock from start to finish.

So what if they show up here in a couple of hours or days? How long have it been since the article have been available? A day?
Tarz

Mountain climber
Calli
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
I agree, this forum should not be used for bashing one way or the other, but Mtucker has a history and I'll stick by my comments. Especially the ignorance part! LOL
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
lotta human behavior here...
Gene

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Well, it was a one man climb.


MTucker is correct.

One man and one woman.

g
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
So if someone forces a line up cliff it is OK to sh#t on them and as Mimi has said numerous times the shitters are Heros?
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
That's a stupid question that's been answered a thousand times already and has nothing to do with the climb itself.

You people who are so obsessed with this shitting sh'it need help that money can't buy.

You're stuck in a stupid rut.

Look at the route not up your azz ........
flyingkiwi1

Trad climber
Seattle WA
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
For some people it's about the climb itself.
For some people it's about how other people expressed their disapproval of the climb.
For some people it's about how the climbers expressed their desire for vindication.

But I think the common-denominator issue is, what's the appropriate way to express disapproval? It is in the end a highly philosophical issue with extremely practical implications.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
You people who are so obsessed with this shitting sh'it need help that money can't buy.


Maybe they're German, Werner.
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
Steve Schneider
Kurt Smith
Bill Russell
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 5, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
For most, the whole concept what defines an appropriate line is too abstract. I suspect many of the critical commentators on this issue haven't even been up to the base of El Cap, let alone climbed it.

The higher order critical thinking required to appraise the context of the natural aspects of the granite monolith we call El Cap is yet another stage in this thinking process.

Outside of the occasional key piece of evidence that appears on these Supertopo forums, this discussion seems to have two main threads:
--an arena for pundits to vent their general frustrations with life in a context that has some parallels; specifically, the concept of exclusion, of which Yosemite contains an element (like just about everything/everywhere in life).
--academic commentary on a endeavour, in the same vein as someone speculating on whether a Tour de France rider used steroids or not--the facts might never be known, but the implications have broader contexts, and can be discussed and debated. In the end, the commentary and speculation may or may not have an influence on the overall trajectory of the discussed endeavour.

It is interesting, of course, and well worth a few minutes here and there clicking on a bookmark to see where its all going...
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 5, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
So no it's not modern A5 by any stretch, even Totto way back in the day, said it wasn't too bad.

Coz, not sure if that's true. Toto and I climbed Sheep Ranch (which we considered A4+ at the time), and I recall Xaver saying that he thought Jolly Roger was harder than "the Ranch". Course, he had soloed Jolly Roger, which might have affected his thinking.

I believe Toto climbed Jolly Roger before it received added holes which apparently have significantly diminished its original difficulty.

I don't think there's any fruit in diminishing Jolly Roger. Cole and Grossman were at the top of their game when they teamed up for that one, and though I haven't climbed the route, I discussed their climb at length with both parties soon after, and I believe it was state of the art at the time, and might even represent the apex of standards on El Cap.
flyingkiwi1

Trad climber
Seattle WA
Oct 5, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
That's a reasonable summary (Deuce4). I would broaden the exclusion bullet to include what to do when someone does something that pisses you off, though. I think that's at the heart of this, and the parallels go all the way from your neighbor's backyard to Syria.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 5, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
Werner. In the context of what is appropriate response to climbs that you do not approve of I believe my question is quite appropriate. As for needing help i would think that those who feel the deficating is no big deal need a lot more help than those who feel that it was way out of line.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Oct 5, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
LAP- FYI
i had nothing to do with the WOS controversy other than listening to the deli trolls talking about it endlessly.
I was too busy climbing to waste my time getting involved in something i had no interest in. Pretty sure steve Schneider felt the same way.
Bill Russell- you will have to ask him

Kurt
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 5, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
LAP - I have found no evidence to support Kurt Smith as being one of the Shitters. An unnamed troll who used the name Meaty. as in Meaty dot, and who is not Dimitri Barton [another suspected Shitter, but again no evidence] sent clues in a post above suggesting Kurt Smith. But I don't believe Kurt was among the Shitters.

I do know who they are. I have only spoken to one so far, but hope to talk to the other two at some point.

I'm curious about Ammon's ratings on WoS. They differ significantly in places from Mark's and Richard's. I don't pretend for a moment to understand new wave vs. old school ratings, or hell, any damn aid climbing ratings for that matter, and this after 44 different El Cap routes of all difficulties. I am wondering, for instance, why Ammon would rate a hooking pitch A3+ that required him to take a number of very long falls? Didn't he have a cumulative length of falls of many hundreds of feet? Should this not be harder than A3+?

Another thing I noticed, if I read it properly, is that Ammon rated an aid crack above the Overseer as A3+ as well, just as hard as the crux hooking pitch[es]. I have yet to meet a crack on El Cap I can't [aid] climb - heads, beaks, whatever, it will usually surrender to a bit of technical gadgetry. A few Yates Screamers and Scream-Aid guarantee I would NEVER take a fifty-footer off the thing. In fact, the longest fall I have ever taken in my life was a thirty-footer on one of my El Cap solos.

Now, on the other hand, I found the hooking on the first couple pitches of WoS to be absolutely desperate. Way too hard and scary for me to commit to, as I am unwilling to take long falls! So I bailed with my tail between my legs. This was only a few years ago, at a time when I had significant El Cap experience.

On the other hand, I climbed Jolly Roger in 99 when I was still pretty much of a n00b. I led all the hard aid pitches, and my rope gun partner Jon Fox led the hard-scary free climbing. Ours was the eight ascent of JR, so I am wondering what on earth was done by the intervening six parties to reduce its rating? Certainly we found it very hard, and it remains one of my favourite routes on El Cap.

Basically, here is what I am saying - I climbed Jolly Roger when I was still fairly inexperienced. I tried Wings of Steel years later, at a time when I actually knew what I was doing. And I found Wings of Steel to be much much harder than Jolly Roger. Does this mean JR is now A3?

Geez, still haven't read the article. Better do that now. It is rather different than Ammon's original draft.

Cheers,
Pete
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 5, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
Steve Schneider
Kurt Smith
Bill Russell

2 of 3 isn't bad.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 5, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
pthp wrote:
I am wondering, for instance, why Ammon would rate a hooking pitch A3+ that required him to take a number of very long falls? Didn't he have a cumulative length of falls of many hundreds of feet? Should this not be harder than A3+?


hmmmmmm-
that right there would be the very 1st time i have ever heard of the "cumulative length of falls [on a given pitch]" statistic... not that you have a dog in the fight or anything, right?




I found the hooking on the first couple pitches of WoS to be absolutely desperate. Way too hard and scary for me to commit to, as I am unwilling to take long falls! So I bailed with my tail between my legs. This was only a few years ago, at a time when I had significant El Cap experience.
...
On the other hand, I climbed Jolly Roger in 99 when I was still pretty much of a n00b. I led all the hard aid pitches...
...
Basically, here is what I am saying - I climbed Jolly Roger when I was still fairly inexperienced. I tried Wings of Steel years later, at a time when I actually knew what I was doing. And I found Wings of Steel to be much much harder than Jolly Roger

say- didn't you deck pretty good on a ledge and break an ankle or both ankles? and wouln't that tend to make future tenuous low angle hook placements seem muchmuch harder afterward? (i would say yes, it would)

for all the experience you like to gab about, from what i have heard about other attempts on WoS, they all made it through the pitches you TR'd, just weren't motivated enough to top the variation out, for either unknown or unreported reasons, which you took some broad "editorial discretion" in describing, when you stole some of ammon's and kate's thunder to report on their ascent for pay in a rag awhile back.



elcapupinyoarse wrote:

With 3-4 parties having climbed through the cruxes on the route (Slater, Poedke, Thaw el al) and only bailed due to time or water issues, the claim that they were "thwarted" presumably by the difficulty, is a joke. Why nobody can get this simple aspect of the history correct is baffling...makes for a better story I suppose if you can hookwink the masses into thinking it was just so technically difficult that nodoby had the skills to repeat it.

Sadly, the climbing rags remain unworthy for use as toilet paper, much less as a historical record of the sport.


actually i think pedro (who of course has no agenda here whatsoever) wrote that in his even-handed and unbiased "press release", when he published his take on the 2nd even before A+K had landed for a shower and a beer, much less having told their tale.

(or so it seemed from over here)






(edit)
also-


Another thing I noticed, if I read it properly, is that Ammon rated an aid crack above the Overseer as A3+ as well, just as hard as the crux hooking pitch[es].

here's the link to the topos:
http://rockandice.com/news/1648-wings-of-steel-original-topo

what i see is that where he wrote A3+, it's not clear what he's labeling, there is also a span 'tween features. more notably, higher still the FA gave a crack A4 and he called it 'A1 tricky', which obviously doesn't add to their cred at all.

(maybe that was just a topo typo? or maybe experience played a part?)
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 6, 2011 - 12:09am PT
Its all A1 right? Until you fall. and sounds like you will fall, allot.
A3+? Sounds like a sandbag rating to keep up the vacillation.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 6, 2011 - 02:00am PT
Different tools, different times. 30 years is a long time.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 6, 2011 - 02:23am PT
Skip raises a key issue, which is that the route can only be assessed in context of the equipment and techniques that were available in 1982. For example, Ammon and Kait's topo includes comments like "many beaks" and "many cams". The former weren't available at all in 1982 - the nearest equivalent was knifeblades or rurps. The latter were available, but only as Friends, in a limited size range. Likewise, hooks are now available in a larger variety. Given the equipment and techniques available in 1982, was the route climbed in an appropriate manner?

It may take several weeks for copies of R&I to trickle out, and perhaps in the meantime people are furiously scanning the article and sending it to each other. Notwithstanding copyright and such. How many have actually gotten a copy, by subscription or at a store? It will be interesting to learn what Kait and Ammon saw, and what they thought of the climb and the style in which it was established. Facts, that is.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 6, 2011 - 02:33am PT
Different tools, different times.

Some tools haven't changed with the times.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:06am PT
Geez, why all the hate? The dudes put a lot of effort putting up a line that was pretty hard and probably can't be seen from more than 50 feet away, so why so much angst about it? If they weren't taken to task, the whole thing would have disappeared into slab-who-cares history. It's no skin off anyone's nose but everyone had their panties in a bunch in the early 80s, the time of rap-bolting fistfights and Todd Skinner-phobia.

And then some Celebration that it's only A3+. Aid climbing ratings are the ultimate BS. If Ammon fell 10 or 20 times on it, and even got injured, then A3+ is PDH. And is there a route he fell more on?

Everyone has this investment in their view but we're full of our prejudices and home gangs.

Let go. Live and let live. Not everybody who choses to try to put up a route is obligated to be the very finest or boldest climber on the planet for that route. If that were true, all the face routes below 5.11 would be X rated put up by soloists and 5.14 climbers.

Peace

Karl
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:16am PT
Ratings
A0: Also known as "french-free", using gear to make progress, but generally no aiders required. Examples: Half Dome regular route, sections of the Nose route on El Cap, the first two pitches of the West Face (either a quick 5.10, A0 with three points of aid, or tricky 5.11 c).

A1: Easy aid: placements straightforward and solid. No risk of any piece pulling out. Aiders generally required. Fast and simple for C1, the hammerless corresponding grade, but not necessarily fast and simple for nailing pitches. Examples: (clean) the non-5.12 version of the Salathe headwall, Prodigal Son on Angel's Landing and Touchstone Wall in Zion.

A2: Moderate aid: placements generally solid but possible awkward and strenuous to place. Maybe a tenuous placement or two above good pro with no fall-danger. Examples: the Right side of El Cap Tower (nailing), Moonlight Buttress and Space Shot in Zion (clean).

A2+: Like A2, but possibly several tenuous placements above good pro. 20 to 30 foot fall potential but with little danger of hitting anything. Route finding abilities may be required. Examples: the new wave grades of Mescalito and the Shield on El Cap, the Kor route on the Titan in the Fisher Towers area.

A3: Hard aid: testing methods required. Involves many tenuous placements in a row. Generally solid placements (which could hold a fall) found within a pitch. Long fall potential up to 50 feet (6-8 placements ripping), but generally safe from serious danger. Usually several hours required to complete a pitch, due to complexity of placements. Examples: The Pacific Ocean Wall lower crux pitches (30 feet between original bolts on manky fixed copperheads), Standing Rock in the desert (the crux being a traverse on the first pitch with very marginal gear with 30 foot swing potential into a corner).

A3+:Like A3, but with dangerous fall potential. Tenuous placements (like a marginal tied-off pin or a hook an a fractured edge) after long stretches of body-weight pieces (here body-weight placements are considered for all practical purposes any piece of gear not solid enough to hold a fall). Potential to get hurt if good judgement is not exercised. Time required generally exceeds 3 hours for experienced aid climbers. Example: Pitch 3 of "Days of No Future" on Angel's Landing in Zion, the crux being 50 feet of birdbeaks and tied-off blades in soft sandstone followed by a blind, marginal Friend placement in loose rock which was hard to test properly, all this above a ledge.

A4: Serious aid: lots of danger. 60 to 100 foot fall potentials common, with uncertain landings far below. Examples: pitches on the Kaliyuga on Half Dome and the Radiator on Abraham in Zion.

A4+: More serious than A4. these leads generally take many hours to complete and require the climber to endure long periods of uncertainty and fear, often requiring a ballet-like efficiency of movement in order not to upset the tenuous integrity of marginal placements. Examples: the "Welcome to Wyoming" pitch (formerly the"Psycho Killer" pitch) on the Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap, requiring 50 feet of climbing through a loose, broken, and rotten Diorite roof with very marginal, scary placements like stoppers wedged in between two loose, shifting, rope-slicing slivers of rock, all this over a big jagged loose ledge which would surely break and maim bones. The pitch is then followed by 100 feet of hooking interspersed with a few rivets to the belay.

A5: Extreme aid. Nothing really trustworthy of catching a fall for the entire pitch. Rating should be reserved only for pitches with no bolts or rivets (holes) for the entire pitch. Examples: pitches on the Jolly Roger and the Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap, Jim Beyer routes in Arches National Park and the Fisher Towers.

A6: (Theoretical grade) A5 climbing with marginal belays which will not hold a fall.


http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Ratings.html
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:38am PT

raymond phule

climber
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:49am PT

If Ammon fell 10 or 20 times on it, and even got injured, then A3+ is PDH. And is there a route he fell more on?

But doesn't this show one problem with aid ratings, that an aid rating is a danger rating that might get mixed with a difficulty rating.

50 m of good hooks above a big ledge would probably result in a A5 rating due to the danger.

What aid rating would 2-3 extremely difficult hook moves above a good piece and a clean fall result in?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 6, 2011 - 07:08am PT
Well said, Karl.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Not everybody who choses to try to put up a route is obligated to be the very finest or boldest climber on the planet for that route. If that were true, all the face routes below 5.11 would be X rated put up by soloists and 5.14 climbers.

so true
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 6, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
A climb is what it is regardless of the rating. Only climbers care about (often to excess) the rating. You can either get up a climb or you can't.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 6, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
^^^ Truth he speaks Yes ^^^


There is a transient magic that only the FA climber's can know or feel.
They are the only ones who do not know if it will go.
Once done the path remains to be followed but the magic is gone.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 6, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
Coz, I don't reckon Grossman to be an egotist--certainly a cantankerous bastard, but pretty mellow when you talk to him in person. Like a lot of Arizona climbers. Certainly he's been coming off as a major grump regarding this climb.

Where was your hard aid lead? Never heard about it, must have been after I left the ditch?


You're probably right abut Gerb--he did most of his best stuff after I left the valley, his climbs are probably the true test pieces of the late 80's/early 90's.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 6, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
I bet the cleaning was serious biz as well. Good job Kait.

+1
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 6, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
Philo - Kait really had to face down a lot of fear, belaying Ammon through so many long falls. She said it was really tough.

Silver - the route was harder than just beer. Rumour has it the Jameson was pulled out during critical emergency moments!

Coz - emphatically concur that Gerb is a sandbagger. The "A3" diorite pitch on Continental Drift was arguably the hardest pitch I've climbed on El Cap, definitely the real deal. And Kevin Thaw's Extraordinary Alien pitch was harder still, though a completely different kind of hard. Ask Neil.

Incidentally, I received an email from one of the Big Three last night, reminding me that while there were indeed three Choppers, there were only two Shitters, and to please quit suggesting that he was a Shitter, when it was merely a can of Dinty Moore. So to him, I extend my heartfelt apology. ;)

Edit: LAP's post two below is factually wrong.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 6, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
This thread is immortal but what happened to all the talk about a film, did common sense prevail?
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 6, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
Shitters.

Steve Schneider
Bill Russell

Who stewed?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 6, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
I just got my Rock and Ice in the mail, and read the new Wings of Steel article. One of the most captivating and well written climbing articles ever! Good job Ammon, wow.
Kept me on the edge of my seat.

i KNOW THE TRUTH AND i HAVE BEEN SET FREEEEEEEEEEEEE
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Oct 6, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
Thanks for the pics, ECP. Nice!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Oct 6, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
"Who Stewed?"

lol
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
I'll send you one, treez.
PM some particulars. Easy Peasy.
nature

climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
Oct 6, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
you should divert that fish to KorFest.... ;-)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 7, 2011 - 09:41am PT
They're just being passionate about something they love, and most of the rest of us don't view it that way so they become more adamant. Thats' all. Probably have a streak of the artist inside of them.
Grossmen, and Mimi seemed like two of the coolest people in the Valley, can't understand their persona here, strange.

Weld-It, didn't "Otto Graph" do the first ascent of Porcelian Wall? Not the one in Yos, this one:
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 7, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
Hey Ammon,

Nice write up. Thanks.

Prod.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Oct 7, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
RIGHT ON MAN!! RIGHT ON! ^^^^^^^

Thanks for the psyche , and breath of good climbing air.

Yeah!
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Oct 7, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you

Oct 7, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
Got carried away there when I got the mag....no need for another thread


Waaaaahhhhoooo


Congrats to Ammon and Kate on a great article and hard fought adventure.

And a big, big congratulations to Richard and Mark for writing such a sick book and for putting up one of the hardest routes anywhere under horrible pressure of every kind.


And much love to Steve and Mims for fighting for ethical purity because it is important ...

My thoughts...
In a world full of corruption, cowards and poor ethics, where I have to see the blood of dying old people sucked for every drop and dollar they can produce and I sometimes want to take a flame thrower to the whole damn thing: It is an honor to be a climber where how you live and what you do does matter. I recieve inspiration right now from both sides and I believe there is a path here where everyone can find some vindication. And with some more communication even forgiveness, apologies and mutual respect.




Much love to all climbers
It's good to be alive!
Yaahhhhaaaa
Cheers....
Riley
One week and um big wallling again myself
Eat it suckas

Holy Crap, dude...

Where did you come from?

I mean, get real...you blow into the most contentious and in many ways obnoxious climbing thread EVER? And you think you can just join sides with everyone and see their point of view???????????????????????????????????

Are you completely INSANE??????????????????????


I'm just messing with you, your post is not only insanely cool, but just might be the most reasonable thing posted to date on this topic. Very nice...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 7, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
Riley's used to workin' both sides of the gurney, so to speak. :-)
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 8, 2011 - 12:15am PT
It's the Twilight Zone, man.
Riley, what's the date on that R&I? Just wonderin'.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 8, 2011 - 05:44am PT
I recieve inspiration right now from both sides and I believe there is a path here where everyone can find some vindication. And with some more communication even forgiveness, apologies and mutual respect.

Sounds good to me, Riley. Steve, Mimi, if you're up for this, send me a PM. It's probably best to hold this sort of conversation in private.
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 8, 2011 - 08:45am PT
What? What did I miss? And when did I become finance minister, while you're at it?

DMT

Steve Schneider
Kurt Smith
Bill Russell

I posted these names. Then received an email from an "in the know" source who said I had 2 right and that Kurt Smith was not involved. Followed by Pete posting that there were 2 shitters, and one who "stewed" on the ropes.
FreeClimberDude

Trad climber
CA
Oct 8, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Isnt this how schneider got his nick name? From his girlriend mimi? Shipoopi
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 8, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
http://rockandice.com/news/1648-wings-of-steel-original-topo
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 8, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
Is there a link for the article online?
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Oct 9, 2011 - 01:49am PT
Not even close. Steve was given that nickname for spraying so hard about his new route(s) on Medlicott. Attracted a whole bunch of bosch-weilding goons, and apparently, the noise of several hammerdrills and yelling,etc forced the NPS to finally act by banning powerdrills whereas previously they'd been turning a blind eye.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 9, 2011 - 02:33am PT
Maybe there is a free route on the Great Slab.

So where is the video? Probably be crap looking at the pics. Interviews in videos blow.

So the shitters and sh#t heads have been outted.

Schneider
Cosgrove
Smith
Braun
SG
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Oct 9, 2011 - 05:32am PT
Coz- Who cares? Steve won't even release a topo for Turning Point or answer a simple question. He's never even climbed the route.

No one else seems interested in aiding it so.... FREE THAT SUCKER!
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Oct 9, 2011 - 11:35am PT
I give M Tucker a big wet sloppy base jumper kiss.
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 9, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Funny how many members are willing to out the shitters by way of private emails.

Steve Schneider
Pete Chesco
Bill Russell

Stewer? I'd guess S, Schneider.

Sorry K Smith, it appears that you were not a part of this.

Coz quote.

LAP,

You dumb ass!

Anyone else find this funny?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 9, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
Takes on to know one. That is why it is funny.
LAP

Boulder climber
Oct 9, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
Takes on to know one. That is why it is funny.

Wow, a brain trust.
zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
Oct 9, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95SYdjRVCR0&feature=related
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:05am PT
coz wrote:
Ammon and Kate,
Report A3+, meaning certain death and way freaking scary.

obviously A3+ is never certain death, so was this line meant to have been ironic? just curious.


so i grazed the R&I article today but only had a few minutes, so i looked for the meat and may have missed a little bit. i caught that ammon talked about the technical hooking and frequent fall potential, but also the general lack of real danger, so on that level i am kinda unsure where the ratings come from, and i suppose i also think ammon was a little unsure of the ratings himself, but was not wanting to down rate the rig so much as to add to the controversy in doing so.

thoughts?
i wonder if the pirate himself will be willing to discuss the actual decision(s) about giving a specific rating to various parts? (maybe later, after the movie? or maybe sooner? we'll see.


also-
ammon wrote in his article about some drilled bathook holes, 30 or so, which he said the FA party had claimed were not theirs, but he said that he was unable to ascend without using them...

obviously, with all the earlier discussion of hole counts, and the FA team claiming to be above board on the hole count, it might be useful if anyone can add some clarity to that part of the article?

in which sections did ammon find the drilled bathook holes that he could not ascend without?
and will richard and mark state clearly if they did or did not drill those?

where else might they have come from?
and if they were not fro the FA, how did those guys climb what ammon couldn't?





EDIT-
one the one hand, the whole issue of the climb and it's history can perhaps now kinda go away with no real end point, and i suppose that's my prediction...


but on the other hand-
for those who have more or less followed along for awhile-
the question of what are apparently unclaimed bathook ladders is a pretty big question!

are we to believe that the FA party somehow hooked their way up a section (or sections) that ammon mcneely could not climb? and that in the interim, another party that also simply could not climb the section(s), added a series of new drilled holes to ascend, only to then decide they were uncommitted to the 2nd ascent and bail, and decided to keep their desecration of WoS in it's original form to themselves?


maybe i have understood this question all wrong, but isn't it basically a case of either A or B, A being the above scenario, and B being that the FA team were otherwise meticulous about recording and reporting their (non-crystal-scraping) hole count and then omitted these, and intentionally so?

even where other people have drilled bathook ladders on other routes and reported it as such, they have generally reported it, so in this case it would in fact be the unreported bathook ladders that have long been speculated about and denied, and in spans where ammon could not ascend without them- isn't that more or less exactly what certain people have accused them of?

if anyone can clarify for me what i am missing, i'll be in your debt.
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:08am PT
thoughts? ^^^

He rated it A3+ and that's what it was for him.

To someone else it might be easier or harder or the same.

Who knows?

Only you will know when you enter the - that "zone" .....
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:20am PT
fair enough, it's just that the rating system as i understand it does not really go on what the stress level of the climber is, but what the danger from falling would be, so that's what makes rating a hooks on slab pitch unusual, as if it really does not fit the system well- or that was my take on the article, anyway.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:23am PT
if it really does not fit the system well

Which may artfully describe WoS. It seems sui generis - one of a kind.
icaro

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:24am PT
I agree with Werner here... ratings are somewhat subjective due to various factors, and are definitely not that important to the actually experience of climbing. climbing speaks for itself... go out there and do it!
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:02am PT
This thread suddenly got boring.
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
Thanks for the break down Coz. That being said aid ratings are more or less about the "Hurt Factor" and not about skill? So a 100 footer on a bolt on Zodiac would be A2 if the fall was into clean air?

Is there a consensus of what is the hardest ElCap aid line? That gets done?

Prod.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
Does the article answer any questions or just fan the flames?
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Does the article answer any questions or just fan the flames?

It's a good read, and I would say that it does answer some of the questions, as well as pose 1 or 2.

Prod.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
I found a great way to answer all the debate, trolling, and dredging of useless bullsh#t.

I sat down with Ammon and talked to him about it, before the article came out. If you do the same, you will probably know what there is to know - fit to print or not. Either that, or go climb it yourself. I can't, so I will accept his version.

30 years, 3000 posts, 1 repeat. Hours and hours of mudslinging, screaming and hate, for what.

Who gives a sh#t what was enhanced. Go look at the report on Hole World. Who's bitching about that? No one.

Climbs happen, ethics change. The Compressor Route caused all this hubbub as well and still does, and people are still climbing that one, hasn't been chopped.

The way I look at it, I don't see what the big deal was or is, by people that can't and never will climb the route, and people who have done a thousand times more "enhancing" and damage to the rock then the FAs ever did.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
Am I the only one who has read Ammon's article?
crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
The article answers lots of questions. A definitive assessment, that rings true, of the quality of the route. Some uncertainty about the difficulty; where the route stands in relation to other hard El Cap routes.

The article is well worth reading. Some excellent observations about esthetics, style, worthiness.

Great job Ammon, a raw, honest account of what it took to ascend this unconventional climb. There are echoes of the trials suffered by the first ascent party. (I just read the book a week ago. Also worth reading).

But the article also raises questions. One new questions involves dimpled reported by Wagner, Thaw, et al, but not found by Ammon. Another concerns about 30 "dimpled" and essential hook placements found and used by Ammon that are surplus to the number claimed by the FA team.

Who made these dimples? Some are above the highpoint of Wagner, Thaw et al. So they were placed by either Rob Slater, who made it 9 pitches up if memory serves, or else the FA team. Unless they were placed by some other person or persons unknown.

Maybe the peregrine falcons make the dimples when they dive for a swallow and miss?

One thing for sure. The debate will not cease.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 10, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
perspective: http://rockandice.com/news/1654-hole-world-gets-second-ascent-finally
Broken

climber
Texas
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
Tip o' the cap to Ammon. 'Tis an engaging, well written account.

And Matt (or other W.O.S. critics and/or defenders) - you should consider holding off until you've thoroughly read the entire article. It clears up a lot.

How dangerous it is depends on how you define danger. The route caused Ammon/Kait some serious stress. Ammon writes about having nightmares while on the wall for the first time (due to the stress of falling again and again). He both compliments and criticizes the route - lauding some portions while critiquing others. The hole count question remains, I suppose, but I don't think that is the take away from the piece.

For me, the general feel was:
 The choice of line is a little questionable.
 Some pitches are really hard (Ammon took 10+ hours on the 1st 2 pitches).
 There is an open question about bathooks.
 The route is quite psychologically demanding, despite the lack of "death" potential.
 Some pitches are enjoyable/aesthetic.
 The FA party, more or less, gave an accurate depiction of their route.

Go out and spend the $6 on the mag.
Broken

climber
Texas
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
I've been mulling over Ammon's article and the route.

I think it serves as an interesting starting point for a debate on risk.

Which of the following is riskier:

a) A route where you will fall dozens of times every attempt. And, once every N number of falls, you will be "injured" (twisted ankle, filleted skin, rope burn).... And once every X number of falls, you will be more seriously injured (broken ankle, etc).

b) A route where you will fall rarely, only once out of every Y number of attempts, but that Z % of the time, the fall will result in death.

You can't really choose until you quantify N, X, Y, and Z (which is obviously problematic). And different climbers would make different choices, depending on their injury history and personal risk preferences.


We could create our ratings from a historical analysis, but hard aid routes are climbed relatively rarely.

Hmm. Perhaps we need to commission 100 ascents of every hard aid route to increase our sample size.. To counteract selection bias, we might have to randomly select some folks and force them upward somehow...

Start the lottery!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
Thanks, Broken. I'm looking forward to reading the article, but the new issue of R&I isn't available here yet, and I don't think it's on the R&I website.

You're right - most of the "issues" we've been presented with are largely or entirely subjective, and require considerable context. For example:
1. Should there be a route on the Great Slab, and who should decide?
2. Where should the route go, and who should decide?
3. Who should be 'allowed' to establish the route?
4. What standard should the route be established to, in other words what style, given the norms of the time and other El Cap routes then?
5. Who if anyone (1982 or 2011) should judge whether the route was established in good style, e.g. following as natural a line as was available, with the fewest drilled holes and enhancements reasonably necessary?
6. Did the FA team honestly report on the climb and what they'd done?

One of the cherished freedoms of climbers, in the Valley and elsewhere, is to do what we want, where we want, within land managers' rules, and community consensus to the extent discernible. (Another is that of engaging in territorial, adolescent behaviour...) So to my mind, the FA team, even if Yosemite nOObs, was free to decide that they'd attempt a new route on the slab, the line they'd take, and the style they'd use. The issues seem to me only whether they might have taken a better line (fewer holes), whether fully-employed 1982 equipment and techniques would have allowed them to do a better job, what holes and enhancements they actually made, and whether they fairly and honestly reported on the climb.

The time which the route took on its first ascent is irrelevant. The climbers weren't in anyone else's way. Sure, it may not have been particularly elegant, but allowing for religious rest days, the climbers only took 2+ the time then usually taken for a new El Cap route, and can argue that their feet fallen/number of falls ratio to the length of the climb was much higher than normal, i.e. more time really was needed. It's amusing that they took so long, and had a somewhat cumbersome ascent, but so what?

As the route clearly remains a major challenge, even for someone who is a leading El Cap climber in 2011, that speaks for itself. It may not be to everyone's taste, as it sounds like significant falls are almost a certainty, unlike many routes. And it may not physically withstand many ascents. But if you accept that sooner or later there'd be a route on the slab, they seem to have done a decent job of it.

Whether the critics can now acknowledge that they overstated their case, and that the route overall is "worthy", even if the style wasn't quite up to their standards, remains to be seen.

But then, what would I know? I've never gotten more than 1/3 of the way up El Cap, and certainly haven't tried WoS.
Transmission

climber
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
perspective: http://rockandice.com/news/1654-hole-world-gets-second-ascent-finally


So in that article we see the following:

McNeely reports that Hole World.... has "quite a few straight-out rivet ladders,"....

The only thing I see is a double standard.

Where is the outrage over that? Why is that climb and climber not held to the same exacting standards as the WoS FA team? That is an awful lot of drilling going on, where are the cries of protest? Who is protecting ElCap? Where are SG and Mimi on this? Seriously. This is an OUTRAGE. That climb is clearly utter garbage and needs to be *chopped*, and the climb derided in the harshest possible way in every guide book, climbing magazine, and online venue that SG and Mimi can think of.

I can't believe that the Valley Locals let that climb go unnoticed and unpunished for so long. What is WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
I just read the whole article.

Ignoring in this post the controversy over the route, the article is a very, very good piece of writing. It is fair, intelligent and gripping.

Nicely done Ammon.
Gene

climber
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
Couple of quick points...

Hole World was put up solo. We have only one person to burn at the stake.

From R&I:
McNeely reports that Hole World is a more natural line than Wings of Steel, but has "quite a few straight-out rivet ladders," and eight to 10 enhanced hooks. He also reports that Wings is a "more problematic" climb, but that Hole World is definitely more dangerous.

Lots changed in YV between 1982 (WOS) and 1990 (HW) in regard to style and 'acceptable' bolt counts.

Transmission's recent post is his first under that avatar. Have we met him before under another name?

Carry on.

g
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
By usual standards, WoS might never be considered a 'natural' line. In a sense, it's an anti-natural line, although perhaps it follows as much of a natural line as there is on the slab.

Although it's not much of a slab, either. 70+ degrees is fairly steep.
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
I wonder what type of Transmission are you?
Like maybe an old cast iron Hydro-Matic, a Dynaflow, or 2 speed Powerglide?
Or maybe more like a newer lite weight 5R55E or a heavy duty 4L80E?
Just wondering.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
Ummm, yo? Can you possibly explain that one for those of us who may not be quite so with it?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Kait: Here are some photos of our second ascent of WOS. Thought it would compliment the article to put these out for everyone to view. Cheers!

http://ammonandkait.blogspot.com/2011/10/2nd-ascent-of-wings-of-steel-photo-tr.html

(http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1634188/Photo-TR-of-the-2nd-ascent-of-Wings-of-Steel);
11worth

Trad climber
Leavenworth & Greenwater WA
Oct 11, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
What happended to Kait's post from a few minutes ago?
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 12, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
Uh, Transmission bro, why did you edit that quote to cut out the part that don't jive with your viewpoint?

Let's give the rest of it for context, eh budday?

Actually, budday, it jives just fine and thank you for playing the pawn and pointing that out -- what you fail to realize is that that just makes it that much worse -- it's a "MORE NATURAL LINE" but the guy had to use freakin' bolt ladders to get up it.

So I ask again in as sarcastic a tone as I can: where is the outrage? Where are SG and Mimi condemning this blow-hard? I thought we were going for a standard of ethics here? YOU CAN"T HAVE A STANDARD IF THE TARGET KEEPS CHANGING! That is the opposite of what a standard actually is.

Some cummon, SG and Mimi, where is the sh!tstorm over this? == pun intended.

Hypocrites.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
a good point, if essessively expressed.

i would argue that the amount of "unnatural" placements ( bolts, rivets, chisselled heads, bathooks, enhanced hooks, etc.) determines the "naturalness" of the line.

In this sense, both lines are similar.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
some people might possibly argue that linking natural features still makes for a potential "natural line", and that the absence of said features was why nobody had ascended the slab before, since it would be just linking of drilled placements.

again, hard to have a discussion in 2011 in the context of what was valid in 1982, since tube socks and ball hugger dolphin running shorts were then popular.

another often repeated metric (as related to "outrage") is the honest reporting of tactics and whatnot, so what did kohl report originally? harding after all did famously drill his way up off the nose through the middle of the night, and nobody can say that's an unnatural line.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
What I think is missing from your (Deuce and Powerglide 300) "natural line" analysis is "Intent".

When you start a line that you can actually see (the layman's defition of a "natural line"), the presumption and intent is that you will be able to get up it with minimal drilling, etc.

When you start a line that is clearly blank of features and does not constitute what a layman would call a natural line, the presumption/intent is that you will certainly be drilling and know that before you ever embark on your little adventure.

The end result may be similar, but if end result was all that mattered we wouldn't have 1st degree murder, 2nd degree, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Intent matters.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
Not sure if intent can be differentiated. Consider each team's "bag of tools" (drills, bolts, rivets, chisels, etc) upon leaving the ground.

The point of the two eras is significant though. Standards aren't static.

With the notable exception of Gerberding's routes, the standard of "naturalness" of new El Cap routes in the 90's was often on the low-end.
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
Wings of steel is a forced line.

Too many holes and smashed heads in only what is it about 9 pitches.

Totally stupid.

Look at the Nose, Salathe, NA, west face etc.

That's why they're classics.

After that comes debauchery.

Yer all goin to hell for this debauchery .....

Oh wait a minute, .....

You're all already there in hell ....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
Right on Werner!
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
icaro

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
"if its a choice between eternal hell and good tunes.. or eternal heaven and New Kids on The Fu#king block... Im gonna be surfing on the lake of fire rocking out, high-fiving satan evertime i pass him on the fu#king shore." - Bill Hicks
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 14, 2011 - 10:02am PT
Mighty Hiker - It's Khan, the villain from Star Trek II engaged in a rousing game of Where's Waldo.

An appropriate metaphor. Nice find, Yo.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 17, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
R&I finally arrived in my mailbox this evening and I just finished reading the WOS story. Very well written article, Ammon!! Am glad someone finally managed to get up the whole route and check things out. It only took 30 years, (and with modern gear) - says something about Mark, Richard, Ammon and Kait :)
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 17, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
Kait: Here are some photos of our second ascent of WOS. Thought it would compliment the article to put these out for everyone to view. Cheers!

I can't believe that Mighty Hiker of all people wrote that second sentence.

I was a well written article. Nice job by the pirate. WB is right that the line was forced, but the difficulty of the line is pretty hard to deny now.

EDIT: ah
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 18, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Umm, I didn't write it - Kait did. I was merely cross-posting.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:07am PT
I searched like hell to find a copy of R&I. Enjoyed the article up the end... Ammon seemed to be giving some minor props throughout, saying the natural features were used well, the hooking was mentally challenging, etc. The last Bridwell quote being applied to the route however, killed my enthusiasm a bit.
Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?

I thought the article was well written and am stoked another party finally got up the route. As others have mentioned, there are still unanswered questions.

Isn't A3+ similar to 5.9+ from a certain era? You don't know what exactly it's going to be like, but you're pretty sure it's going to be difficult?
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:35am PT
Any line you can't or don't free-solo is "forced".
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 18, 2011 - 01:58am PT
Bridwell said and Ammon applied it to Wings of Steel... "I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy".
So basically it was a pile?


Greetings, Bergbryce!

That quote initially threw me for a loop, too. I wondered if that was what he was saying at first glance, but it seemed incongruent with the nods he gives the route. When I considered it in the context of the rest of the article, I came to interpret it as a reference made to the psychological trauma inherent in the ascent of the route. From my reading, Ammon seemed to be up front about the fact that the route was something of a psychological crucible. Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.

(Ammon, Kait, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.)
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:12am PT
Plugging this into the Bridwell quote, I believe he was referring to the fact that he would not wish that kind of psychological strain on his worst enemy, as opposed to calling the route a pile.

I can see that perspective too and would be interested in knowing which it is.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Oct 18, 2011 - 02:37am PT
I always perceived that quote of Bridwell's as a warning that it's hard and gnarly but not necessarily aesthetic.

Big walls in general are the kind of deferred fun that Csikszentmihalyi discusses in his flow theory.

http://www.deuce4.net/web/climberMotivation.pdf
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 18, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Damn, Deuce. Thanks for posting this study.

I’ve only had the chance to look into it for about an hour, but it’s already apparent that Csikzentmihalyi’s the fecking master bard of leisure research. The way he describes Flow not only immediately calls the concept to mind, but actually puts me in that state for as long as I reflect on it.

... in the flow state, action follows upon action according to an internal logic that seems to need no conscious intention by the actor. He experiences it as a unified flowing from one moment to the next, in which he is in control of his actions, and in which there is little distinction between past, present and future. (Csikszentmihalyi: 1975,
p 36)

I’m also seeing what you mean regarding the Bridwell quote and Flow Theory, and it also provides a theoretical explanation for why the route hasn’t seen much repeat.

...both the experienced climber and the novice will become anxious, as predicted by the Flow Theory, when the task exceeds the skill level available. The more experienced the climber the more
probable it is that s/he will avoid such a situation.

Main focus seems to be the nature of shifting motivations for rock climbers over 40 freaking years as both the climber and their enjoyment of the sport mature and shift over time. Largely from extrinsic factors - such as gaining the approval and acceptance of other climbers – to the intrinsic – such as self-satisfaction and personal fulfillment.

This progression is gradual and is an internal process of the individuals themselves. It is not an externally driven mechanism controlled by social forces but rather an internal mechanism powered by the individual’s experiences and observations. Those individuals who do not internalise the enjoyment and rewards of rockclimbing soon cease the activity.

It’s interesting also how the authors mention that as this maturation shift occurs there’s generally an increase in the range of aspects and types of climbs a climber enjoys.

The longer an individual participates in an activity the more enjoyment develops from participation. This "learning" process assists in developing the internalisation of rewards from extrinsic to intrinsic, permitting rockclimbing to be enjoyed for all of its aspects: the exciting and adventurous; the difficult and challenging; the calm and relaxing.

I’ll have to go back and delve deeper into the article after class, and maybe have a look at Csikszentmihalyi’s prior study about the tie-in between rock-climbing and the pursuit of self-actualization, and how rock climbing can be a means through which to pursue it.

jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Oct 18, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
When Bridwell first said that, wasn't about that route Bushido on HD?

I saw a feature on it in one of the mags (maybe Alpinist?), that had a brief story of the route, written by Bard. They suffered somewhat, the route was hard, the route was dangerous, but the line didn't seem nearly as forced as WoS.

Don't know necessarily how to interpret Ammon's using of the line... Then again, don't know exactly how to interpret Bridwell's using either...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 18, 2011 - 10:15pm PT

Greetings, Jfailing.

Apparently we've got a thread here on Supertopo that gives some good information and a topo on Bushido.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=673612

Ed Hartouni posted this reference:

Half Dome. In October Dale Bard and I did a new route on the northwest face of Half Dome. The route is on the right side of the face. The first 900 feet followed a huge arch with very awkward, strenuous, loose, expanding aid climbing. The upper part required many holes (105 total). Dale, who has done all the routes on Half Dome’s northwest face, said this route was certainly the most difficult. The climb required eight days of continuous climbing, with four pitches fixed. The route is extremely steep, strenuous, and dangerous, with no retreat possible.
NCCS VI, F10, A4+.

JAMES D. BRIDWELL

So clearly, we're looking at what Bridwell himself considered a very difficult and dangerous line. Given that, if Ammon meant the quote the way Bridwell meant the quote, I believe it's much more likely he's referring to the difficulty and innately technically and psychologically demanding nature of the climb.

Mind you, I'm also not trying to draw a comparison between Bushido and Wings of Steel here, in fact I believe this is a key point. WoS was a climb of the great slab on El Cap, whereas Bushido was a climb on an overhanging wall of HD. I do not think a valid comparison between the "forced"ness or naturalness of the line can necessarily be quantified given the inherent differences between the two climbs.

Regardless, Bridwell's quote, much like Ammon's use of it, seems to me to reference the overarching theme of demand and difficulty (as presented in Bridwell's commentary on Bushido, likewise in Ammon's article about WoS), as opposed to being a jab at the route or the style in which it was put up.

What do you think?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Oct 19, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
treez, check your Email.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 19, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Lovegasoline, if you feel it would promote this thread's natural tendency toward self-actualization, we could go back to posting poop jokes.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 19, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
Norton nuked his thread....just wondering.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 19, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
Is this what all that was?

Much like anything in life, it's pretty much whatever you decide to make it out to be.

I'm enjoying your posts in the Occupy thread, by the way.
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Oct 19, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Norton nuked his thread....just wondering.
...I was thinking something along those lines too ;-)
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 21, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
Just to show that Nick Danger never lies!

Plus it wasn't the 3rd, more like 5th!

Let the pithy, make that snooty comments resume, here, where they belong.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 21, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
you guys are crazy.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 22, 2011 - 06:15am PT
I like your style, Nick.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Content-wise? A 30 year old climb - its climbers were harassed and their characters assassinated due to misconceptions about them and about their climb, with slander continuing to be perpetuated for 30 years, culminating in a 2nd ascent that demonstrated those statements inaccurate.

Process-wise? A forum-thread for the various (and often notable) members of the rock climbing community to showcase their true and ugly characters.

Also, ponies.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 22, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
Didn't Mark and Richard go on to do the hardest aid climb in the world at that time after they put up Wings of Steel? I can't remember the name of the climb.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 22, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
^^ It was Jim Beyer's "Intifada".

Here's Richard's writeup on their ascent:

http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html
mongrel

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Oct 23, 2011 - 12:27am PT
Uh, Dweeb, I'm not so sure it's correct to say that the SA "demonstrated those [which?] statements inaccurate." The article in R&I, an excellent one by the way, definitely states that they encountered numerous drilled hook placements in locations not known to have been attained by anyone between the first and second ascents, of which McNeely says "At this point we were convinced that the dimples and bathooks had come from the first ascent." That seems to be contrary to what the FA party has said. And he provides hole totals: 30 more drilled hook placements than stated by the FA party.

That said, he nevertheless gives the benefit of doubt to the FA party, preferring just to consider the unclaimed 30 drilled placements as an unresolved mystery. I lean that way too, because everything I've read from the FA party has had a real ring of truth to it. But it's not correct to say that the observations from the SA demonstrated that statements about drilled placements were inaccurate.

The SA reported 140 drilled placements (plus anchors), which comes to somewhere around 700 feet of progress (half or more than half of the whole climb??) being made by drilling, more than would be my personal taste (though not meant to be a criticism of either party - I'm not in that game). But the rest sounds pretty damn technically difficult, and some of it really good quality.

It sounds like a pretty impressive achievement for anyone who has made it very far up the climb, especially the two successful parties. Much thanks to Jensen for the excellent post a few pages back about the experience of the climb. Sounds like it was an incredible mix of challenge, stress, physical effort, and beauty of the environment.

The most important question now is, have Honnold and Caldwell seen the photos? Looks like a mighty fine piece of rock with a lot of climbing space and at least a few features. Those guys don't seem to need too many.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 23, 2011 - 12:45am PT
Have to head to work so I'll keep this short, but you have a fair point, Mongrel. I figured it best to keep to a one or two line response for that post, and it's true I could have been more specific about the statements I was referring to.

I can see how you're talking more about statements involving the FA team's reported number of drilled holes not matching the SA total, largely due to the WTF bat hook placements. I'm not sure what to say about that one, I'm of the opinion that the article says everything there is to say on the matter already. But I do see what you're saying regarding that.

The statements I'm referring to are the various historical comments - such as you see at the start of this thread and made at the beginning of the controversy - regarding Wings of Steel being a drilled pile, a real mess, and generally having no redeeming value, and Mark and Richard being made out to be the enemies of rock climbing ethics. These have over time been the most damaging and enduring statements, and any way you slice it they're pretty well laid to rest at this point. People can have their own opinions positive or negative on the climb, but Mark and Richard are no longer seen as villains by the community at large. At the end of the day, that's where I've wanted to see all of this get to, and I know the same is true of the FA team.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 23, 2011 - 12:55am PT
^^ It was Jim Beyer's "Intifada".

Here's Richard's writeup on their ascent:

http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html

Fantastic read btw. That piece is what got me sucked into this whole drama. They downgraded Intifada.
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 23, 2011 - 01:02am PT
"That said, he nevertheless gives the benefit of doubt to the FA party, preferring just to consider the unclaimed 30 drilled placements as an unresolved mystery. "

I have to wonder if other parties that attempted ascents did those.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Oct 23, 2011 - 02:39am PT
Wow, just read the Intifada article and it confirms everything that I've ever heard about Beyer as a person, from people who know him. Btw, well written article!
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Oct 23, 2011 - 02:54am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/231645/Intfada


Whilst on the off-topic topic..
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 23, 2011 - 10:15am PT
I agree, I think Jim Beyer deserves big kudos for doing solo what most other people will not even attempt as a team. He doesn't self promote his routes, and simply because he doesn't make topos or keep track of what he does pitch by pitch doesn't mean he is trying to decieve anyone. Sounds like the guy climbs for the sake and love of climbing. That I can appreciate!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 23, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
Studly and Jake,

Jim Beyer is a vandal who while climbing Martyr's Brigade destroyed bolts and rivets on an existing route on El Capitan - WOEML. These chopped anchors have yet to be repaired, and the WOEML route is currently unclimbable.

Accordingly, Martyr's Brigade is a botch job, and I have no respect for Beyer nor his climbing accomplishments. He should go repair what he wrecked.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 23, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
but what's the deal with the ponies?
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 23, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
Hey Pete,

What is the story behind that? Why did he do it?

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 23, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
I've done just about every kind of climbing imaginable. To me aid climbing is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I always wonder about the appeal of aid climbing to so many people.
Prod

Trad climber
Oct 23, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
I always wonder about the appeal of aid climbing to so many people.

Hi Jim,

For me the appeal comes in 3 forms.

1. The mechanics and problem solving.
2. Big wall camping.
3. Getting to the top.

Prod.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 23, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
Nicely stated Prod, and Jim, I don't recall calling aid climbing wierd- is that what you think?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 23, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
Jim Beyer is a vandal who while climbing Martyr's Brigade destroyed bolts and rivets on an existing route on El Capitan - WOEML. These chopped anchors have yet to be repaired, and the WOEML route is currently unclimbable.

Accordingly, Martyr's Brigade is a botch job, and I have no respect for Beyer nor his climbing accomplishments. He should go repair what he wrecked.




quite honestly i just think it's incredibly bizarre that you'd see fit to climb up on a high horse and start talking about not respecting another person, considering what lots of people have witnessed you say and do, and i think you know exactly what sort of stuff i am talking about.

who really cares about some holes in some rocks as compare to sh#t like that?
seriously.


edit
question:
if beyer decided to become a born again christian, would he then need to take some responsibility for these misdeeds he's supposedly enacted and go fix the stuff, or would he simply be all set (and worthy of your "respect"), having accepted the lord as his savior?

just curious.
(seriously)
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 23, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
Ahhh, and homeostasis in this thread has at last found another venue through which to maintain itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEbE3fGfF-o
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 24, 2011 - 02:23am PT
I reiterate...what's the deal with the ponies?111!!!666
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 24, 2011 - 03:05am PT
I would hazard a guess that Da Dweeb is The Obfuscation that is a proxy to the first ascent dudes not being able to explain unexplained Bathooks.
Humans being earnest are better entertainment than any comedian could imagine.

At least my obfuscation is laughable.


In all seriousness Jim, I'm not advocating that anyone should believe one way or the other regarding the bathooks. It's pretty much a given that folk will form their own opinion on the matter based on what they already think about the climb and the climbers. However if you want to, you could PM Madbolter1 to get his take on it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 24, 2011 - 03:08am PT
wtf...I've been guilty of aid climbing...but...
ponies?

dweeb are you evading the question?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 24, 2011 - 03:14am PT
What, regarding the ponies?

Well, what do you want to know?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 24, 2011 - 03:25am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1363644/3rd-ascent-of-the-WOEML-who-did-it

Until 2002, WEML was a viable climb. It got climbed once a year or every other year.

In the late 80s/early 90s Steve Gerberding redrilled the original section that Robbins chopped. He told me he used 1/4" buttonheads, drilling right next to the chopped bolts(i've only done New Dawn so haven't seen em).

In 96ish Chris McNamara and Brian Paulson replaced most of the anchor bolts, as long as you link according to the Supertopo.

In 2002 Jim Beyer put up Martyr's Brigade, which crosses or touches WEML, ND, Mescalito,Space. Jim reported in Alpinist that he, "I drilled a lot of bolts, but chopped about an equal number on surrounding routes."

In 2004 Hans Florine and Brian McCray tried for the first one day ascent of WEML and were slowed considerably by several chopped bolts. Hans reported that they free-soloed the first pitch, drilled a couple rivets over the climb, and avoided other blank spots with penjiing onto nearby routes.

Later in 2004, Brian McCray and Ammon McNeely paired up for the first one day ascent. I don't believe they drilled any bolts but resorted to the same circuitous climbing tactics to avoid broken bolts.

I don't believe anyone has climbed the route since 2004. I don't believe the bolts on the first pitch have been replaced.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Oct 24, 2011 - 08:59am PT
Doesn't Martyr's Brigade also include some really contrived difficulty, like "hook" moves involving an ice tool attached to a cheat stick or something like that?
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 24, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
I would hazard a guess that Da Dweeb is The Obfuscation that is a proxy to the first ascent dudes not being able to explain unexplained Bathooks.

It only matters because it is a point of faith that the unfaithful are supposed to believe.

Aid climbing is like being involved with Catechism into adulthood sometimes. There is some liberation but lots of loathing for just doing what it takes to get home.

Humans being earnest are better entertainment than any comedian could imagine.

You've unwittingly described yourself, which is both amusing and not really surprising.

Further, your overwhelming faith in certain things is amazing. I applaud your ultimately futile efforts.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 24, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
I'm just too lazy..er..pressed for time to read back through this dreck to excavate the reason you are posting cute little girl pony images...
Oxymoron

Big Wall climber
total Disarray
Oct 24, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
Chop Martyr's Brigade, then more ponies!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 24, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
It's another form of communication, I suppose. Sometimes point/counterpoint argument is called for. Sometimes rational analysis. Sometimes reflective listening.

Sometimes ponies.

I like the butterfly, by the way.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 24, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
did PTPP sh#t on Matt's ropes?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 25, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
Just for you, Oxymoron:
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 25, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
HAH! Well played, Jim.
Oxymoron

Big Wall climber
total Disarray
Oct 25, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
Thank you, Da Dweeb. Deliciously fun and funny.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 26, 2011 - 12:08am PT
Doesn't Martyr's Brigade also include some really contrived difficulty, like "hook" moves involving an ice tool attached to a cheat stick or something like that?


http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP01/climbing-note-beyer

Martyr's Brigade is probably the hardest and most dangerous big-wall route on El Capitan

The seventeen-foot stickhook move on pitch 24 bypasses a super-thin flake, but has real bloodbath potential. The "dry tool" move on pitch 11 is unique. By topstepping a big hook, I was able to reach past a twenty-foot blank wall and "dry tool" (my ice axe taped to my twenty-two-foot stickclip) an out-of-sight block. As I jugged my 5.5-mil spectra cord up to the axe I was afraid that it would come off and impale me. When I reached the block I realized it was detached and resting on a narrow down-sloping ledge. I should have been more gripped.

. I drilled a lot of bolts, but chopped about an equal number on surrounding routes. Creating hard pitches, destroying pathetic bolt ladders (Early Morning Light)—it seemed to balance out in the end.

Pretty funny to hear Jim Beyer cheating his way up with a big 22 foot cheat stick (not counting the attached ice tool) and an even bigger ego while calling bolt ladders pathetic.
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 26, 2011 - 02:27am PT
If it wasn't okay for the WoS crew, it shouldn't be okay to do to anyone else, no matter how justified you may feel in doing so. I'm sure that the folks that have harassed the WoS FA team felt justified in their actions (and still do, obviously), but that doesn't make it any less of an incorrect course of action.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 26, 2011 - 05:04am PT
A right sensible point, Transmission.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 26, 2011 - 10:09am PT
In fact DMT, the sheer grimdark of this show never ceases to amaze me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKkA7JJS6bM
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 26, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
Dear Stinkeye,

How about *you* stfu? You have done nothing to add to this thread, or any other around here, in any meaningful or relevant way; this most recent post simply shows the level of stupidity that you are capable of reaching, and your overall level of contribution.

Take your negativity and go find a Proton.
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 27, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Pretty sharp, or pretty cavernous? Probably the latter given some of the things I've heard he's done.

And stinkeye, if that's all you have as a comeback, let me just invite you to participate in the medical improbability of self-impregnation.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 27, 2011 - 01:07am PT
"my interest level is dropping..."
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 02:12am PT
Well Stinkeye, I'm not sure what to say on that. In general I appreciate your contributions to the thread. It's a bummer to hear the feeling isn't mutual, but I can accept that.

In general I've done my best to contribute positively as I'm able to and on review I feel satisfied that I've reasonably met that goal and kept nonsense posts reserved as responses to nonsense as a general rule. I understand if you disagree.

Though you seem to indicate some ambivalence in your post. When you say you didn't think these threads could get any worse I take that to mean you generally do not like the way these threads have been going for a while now. Do I have that right?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:03am PT
in reality though, you are just a dude who advocates for them in their absence, and rather compulsively if i may say so, to the point of seeming somewhat, well, somewhat odd, or unlikely.

at the end of all of this it is pretty interesting to see mimi/grossman and richard/mark so completely absent, is it not?

at times they were all prone to ongoing compulsive attacking or defense, then ammon comes out and says yes it's technically hard but then again it's more of a mental challenge, and oh btw there are a slew of unaccounted for holes on the route past where we thought the other teams had bailed out...

and now-

<crickets>







for me, at the end of the day, the truth is it hardly matters.
will their ever be a third?
after all, the 2nd has come and gone, and ammon didn't seem to think it was so worthwhile of an adventure. that has to influence some people.
































maybe WB and MTucker will bag the 3rd?
or stanley will be all set to free the rig on rivets and some magazine hero will bolt it up?

hahaha, as the valley turns...
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:06am PT
It's quite a conundrum, isn't it Matt?

Part of me wonders if this maelstrom has finally spun itself out.
























Incidentally, I've wondered all this time - you do know you only have to hit the enter key twice to start a new paragraph, right?
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:08am PT

Part of we wonders if this maelstrom has finally spun itself out.


was that a freudian typo, gentlemen?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:10am PT
Nice catch. DERP

Anyway, We and I haven't seen Steve or Mimi since Steve stated that Ammon's A3+ rating vindicated everything he ever said about the route and its climbers, for some reason. Meanwhile Mark's expressed to me that he feels the content of the article demonstrates the merit of the route and the climbing involved well enough for him to be satisfied with what's already been said. Further his priorities are elsewhere between school and family. Richard I haven't spoken with but if his quote at the end of the article is any indication he may simply not see any further merit in engaging here at the moment.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:24am PT
Was I called?
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:25am PT
I am waiting for the movie.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 03:31am PT
Yup. Should be interesting.
Mimi

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 11:11am PT
Morning, Matt. Just read the tail end of the thread and saw your posts. For the record, I haven't had any interest in chiming in now that the truth has come out. All I (and others) ever claimed was that Richard was a liar about the hole count since day one. Now that another party has completed the upper pitches where the FA can't claim the drilled holes were due to someone else, the case is closed. The bottom line has always been that the FA was basically incompetent and unprepared and the poor quality of their route is a testimony to that.
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
All I (and others) ever claimed was that Richard was a liar about the hole count since day one.


That's not all you claim even in this single post.

Now that another party has completed the upper pitches where the FA can't claim the drilled holes were due to someone else, the case is closed.


You don't have any way of knowing where the drilled holes (I assume you refer to the bathook line) came from. The "can't claim they were due to someone else" statement comes from no other source than yourself, and the SA team has stated that minus the bathook line the hole count is accurate to what the FA team reported.

What you refer to as "case closed" they refer to as "one mystery about the route that may never be solved."

The bottom line has always been that the FA was basically incompetent and unprepared and the poor quality of their route is a testimony to that.


Refer to my first statement. You're also ignoring the content of the SA team's report that contradicts this statement in order to focus on what confirms your vitriol. There's much said about the difficulty of the hooking required (and that Ammon learned a good deal as a result) as well as the difficulty of the SA and the fear-effect that it had on the SA team. (Particularly poignant was Ammon's kudos to the FA team for doing it sober.)

Further, the SA team reports that they had a great journey on a route that wasn't easy, improved their range of skills as a result, and that they learned about themselves and each other as well.

It seems to me that's meritorious of a letter home to Princess Celestia in and of itself.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
dweeb...ever heard of LEB?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
Ponyboy: You ever climb El Cap? Or are you strictly rack caddy/ball cupper material?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
You can come at me personally if you want to, ElCap. But consider what I've written.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
Answer the question Ponyboy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
Elcapinyoazz, you ever climb Wings of Steel?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
It's interesting what you're doing right now ElCap, but I'm disinclined to play along. If you want to minimize my point of view rather than directly address it, well, I can't stop you, but I get to choose how to respond to that.

In this case, I'll simply let what I've written stand.

Mimi comes at this from 30 years of hate and vitriol. And haters are going to keep right on hating.
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 27, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
"Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but apparent character flaws or actions that are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions."

That's all ElCap-the-azz-hole has.

It's all that Mimi has too. Her utterly stupid argument about movie critics and music several hundred posts back made me bust a gut; the level of conviction that was quite apparent in her assertions was absolutely hilarious.

Mimi, movie critics actually watch the movies they have opinions about. People who go to concerts actually hear the music they critique. That's the difference here.

You have zero experience with the climb itself, your personal climbing experience amounts to absolutely nothing of consequence (and I would bet a 24-pack that you can't live up to Steve's high-and-mighty standards, much like the shithead himself cannot live up to --- how much dirt and rock have you moved in your life, Steve?), and your various adolescent, menopause-induced outbursts throughout have been utterly laughable.

It's okay to be jelly of people who have done something of note, Mimi, really. But you should consider that after all these years, you are not only a fat cow, but an ugly fat cow.

In closing: Moo.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 27, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
Elcapinyoazz, you ever climb Wings of Steel?

Nope. Given the question, I take it you rode the short bus to school?

So Ponyperv, what you've "written" has been largely composed of posting little girl pictures while attempting to speak authoritatively about an activity of which you have no direct knowledge.

Personally, I couldn't give two shits about your buddies' route which doesn't take an actual line on the cliff. If they get their rocks off hooking and drilling up blanks slabs, more power to them. Has no effect on me or my climbing.

But I do grow extremely tired of a...I'm gonna peg you at about 25, year old asssclown blabbing off at the mouth about something they know nothing about, attempting to dominate a thread while being clearly WAY out of their depth on the subject at hand, and posting a bunch of child's pics as a substitute for legit input, all as a water-carrying exercise for their buddy, who apparently ain't got the sack to defend himself or knows he has no defense.

Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
ElCap-

I don't need to be the authority on the issue to be able to read and disseminate the second ascent report. I addressed Mimi's points directly, logically, and coherently based on that report as my source, and I believe that stands in marked contrast to the way you paint the picture. But if you do see any pony pictures up there, feel free to point them out to me.

It's also interesting that you try to reframe my post as a deficiency or insufficient sack on the part of the FA team to defend themselves, something I'm sure they're perfectly willing to do if and when they feel so inclined. I wonder though, if and when they should come back around and post on the issue, will you be one of those who jump on them to "LET IT GO"?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 27, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
But I do grow extremely tired of a...I'm gonna peg you at about 25, year old asssclown blabbing off at the mouth about something they know nothing about, attempting to dominate a thread while being clearly WAY out of their depth on the subject at hand,

ElCap, it's mean of you to call Mimi an asssclown, but I'm sure she'll take you're pegging her as a 25 year old as a compliment.
Transmission

climber
Dallas, TX
Oct 27, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
"blabbing off at the mouth about something they know nothing about"

Were you born retarded, or did your molester father drop you on your head after he was through with you one evening (which also explains your name)?

You're doing what you accuse this other person of doing, ElCapAssClown.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 27, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
Tranny, if you are running down Steve's standards that makes it really clear you haven't done any of his climbs in Arizona. They didn't call it the Sydicata Granitica for nothing. Drill holes to make a climb softer? You could just f*#king forget that pal. Back in the day if there was a bush to rap off of, no way any real hardman was was even going to drill rap anchors. You could get the sh#t beaten out of you for just using chalk. Arizona hardmen were as hard as they get and Steve was right at the top of the pyramid. Those guys set some incredibly high standards and a big part of that was "leave no trace".

Not sure how old you are, but environmentalism used to be a driving force in climbing. I'm sure that's a lost part of climbing these days, powerdrilling as many FA's as possible to make your "reputation". I'm equally sure it's what pissed off the Yosemite locals, watching two incompetents chipping and drilling their way up a wall they had no business on.

My nickname is Nick Danger, my real name is Mike Smith. I don't need to hide behind some internet facade. I've never changed my views on what climbing is all about, and preserving the environment is a big part of that. We didn't call it clean climbing for nothing bud.

Oh, by the way, hows the climbing in Dallas?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Oct 27, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
is this an airplane thread?
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
Now that another party has completed the upper pitches where the FA can't claim the drilled holes were due to someone else, the case is closed.
Mimi,

The thing that seems the most closed here is your mind. Perhaps you will recall this:?
I hope Ammon does well and finally puts this nonsense to rest. The damned route has been done for all practical purposes by several parties. I want to see it mostly freed by some awesome slab climber. It's all about the haters vs. the lovers on this one.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849&tn=445

So what is it? Climbers were all over it before this summer ... or not? Seems that the answer is whatever you want it to be whenever you want it.
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 27, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
I'm gonna call bullshit on that post ^^^ right there.
It's not as if their are hoards of closet slab-hooking aid freaks out there, just waiting dozens of years to ascend the great slab in secret, like i guess in the dark or something, just to get their fix, can we agree on that? so the realistic ventures up WoS have been known about, if not always screamed about on ST, and nobody who has the time, patience, and skill to get up it would be very likely to then add bathook ladders so they could then NOT REPORT the 2nd ascent, and that's essentially what you are suggesting.

further, ammon also stated that he could not pass the sections in question w/out the bathooks, so you are also asking us to believe that you were able where he was not (which few will accept, obviously, but feel free to make that case if that's your new line)
MSmith

Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
Matt,

You read into my post more than I said. What I did say is that Mimi has it both ways. Climbers were all over the route. But now "the FA can't claim the drilled holes were due to someone else." And she makes here latest claim with such support that the "case is closed."
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
When will the 3rd ascent start to investigate the second ascent and the 1st ascent?

When will all you people go to bed?

Dweeb dude probably never sleeps running all this crap thru his head.

Will you ever go to sleep.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 28, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Respect Wings of Steel. Regardless of what exact hole count plus or minus 10 bathooks??? Really you guys can get worked up forever have fun. The route was bold. For the lesser "experience" you all rage about it was bold. Who cares if you agree with it. Respect it, it's there, it's hard, new wave A3 was A5 at the time it went up soooo easy oh mannnnn call my mommy. Yall need to chill and go climb. When I get old and disgruntled at least I'll be out there climbing something instead of circle jerking on the internet over a wild line being in with the cool kids.... Criticism resent lasts a life time. Being wrong feels like being right. All these people are seemingly incapable of empathizing out of their own perspective. I'm going climbing. Get over it move on boys! Nothing better to do?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Oct 28, 2011 - 12:46am PT
Mimi=Me, me...



Dinosaurs yawning with their squaws in tow will all but die off and be never heard from again--history will be behind the WOS team, and the Grossman fannies will be an asterisk and footnote in a linked "not available" site :-)


Intifada !!!!1111
Matt

Trad climber
primordial soup
Oct 28, 2011 - 01:03am PT
Msmith-
what i have not seen in your post(s) was an emphatic statement that the extra 30 or so holes ammon has apparently encountered (and mentioned in his R&I article), and which he himself required for passage, were not yours.

if in fact there was all these thousands of posts about whether scraping crystals with a drill constituted a drilled placement or not, and the claim was that the hole count was complete, and then there were another 30 holes in bathook ladders, well that'd be a pretty significant omission, would it not?





















aren't you guys ticked off that some pussy ass drill happy wanker desecrated your route?
Da_Dweeb

climber
Oct 28, 2011 - 01:17am PT
Bedtime isn't for another 8 hours or so for me, Werner - I work the overnight shift. But I'll sleep well this morning knowing that you care. <3
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Oct 28, 2011 - 10:01am PT
Mimi, are you competent enough to lead a pitch on Wings of Steel? If so, I dare you to prove it.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Oct 28, 2011 - 10:19am PT
I appreciate that you stopped with the pony porn. Thank you.

Amen!!!!!!!!1111

That shít was (is) creepy.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 28, 2011 - 11:44am PT





+1 on creepy ponies
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Oct 28, 2011 - 11:53am PT
what Wade said.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 28, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
All I (and others) ever claimed was that Richard was a liar about the hole count since day one.

I keep getting laughs out of that one!

Bring back the ponies!!


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 28, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
The Canada Post dogsled finally arrived with my copy of R&I yesterday. Ammon and Kait's article, which includes photos and quotes from Richard and Mark, and quite a lot about the history of the route, is well worth reading.

The facts from the article seem pretty clear. Wings of Steel:
 Is a hard and committing climb, whether by the standards of 1982 or 2011. Possibly modern equipment and techniques ease things a bit.
 Is a one of a kind climb, in that it relies mainly on hooking. Hooking on something that's less than vertical, and relatively unfeatured. It's not to everyone's taste.
 Follows a 'natural' line, insofar as there is one. (It's unclear if anything else on the 'slab' offers a more natural or alternative line.)
 Has about 30 unaccounted for bathook holes - that is, not listed in Richard and Mark's book. Some are in the upper half, which had no recorded attempt or repeat prior to Ammon and Kait. The holes were necessary for progress, given the features of the rock where they're located.
 Has 188 drilled placements altogether, including 48 for belays. Some may have been added in the first half during attempted repeats.
 Has an average of 14.5 drilled placements/pitch in 13 pitches, or excluding belay anchors just under 11. The 30 unattributed holes work out to just over two/pitch, although they're not uniformly spaced out.

One would have to work out the hole count/metre to allow something of a comparison with other routes. Although it would still be apples and oranges - the 'slab' is quite unfeatured in comparison with many routes on the SE face.
chez

Social climber
chicago ill
Oct 28, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Reading that put me to sleep, route sounds totally uninteresting.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Oct 28, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
I though that Grossman said he was originally going to inspect the route to look for evidence of enhanced hook placements, but haven't really heard much about them. Did the article say anything about this? Were there enhanced natural hook placements, or just drilled bat hooks/rivets between hook placements?
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Oct 28, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
That's a really good question, in light of the hundreds of posts related to enhancements.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 28, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
Yeah Werner, when will they all go to bed? I'll help you tuck them in.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Oct 30, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
There have been references to the ideal of "leave no trace", even to the point of not using chalk. Even though I use (and love) chalk, I can respect anyone for not using it to "leave no trace".

It just seems like anyone this pure would not then be cool with doing first ascents on El Cap, which necessitate MANY permanent "traces" far worse than some spots of chalk...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 25, 2011 - 12:31am PT
Floyd- Would you care to say the same about me...or yourself for that matter? If you actually looked at the topo you would see that several pitches of the unlucky 13 are moderate and well within Mimi's ability, if that even matters, which it does not.

I have been the most consistent critic of these guys ever since they came on this forum demanding respect and an apology from me which they clearly never deserved. Bathook holes are not the least bit ambiguous despite all the obfuscation and weaseling.

Remember, these two started out from absurd position that NONE of their meticulously documented 154 hook placements were enhanced using a chisel or drill so it is not a question of extent or proportion just one of simple honest and forthright reporting of their methods and performance on this route. That's it and that's that...

You guys simply can't handle a woman with a strong voice or opinion. Pretty damn funny from our perspective.

Stop chasing your tails gents and let this episode dwindle off into the obscurity it has always deserved.
laughingman

Mountain climber
Seattle WA
Nov 25, 2011 - 01:21am PT
Everyone needs to chill out.

Lets have a civil conversation instead of having a pissing contest about the climbing ethics on Wings of steel.
MTucker

Ice climber
Arizona
Nov 25, 2011 - 02:25am PT
Steve sure talks a bunch sh#t for not climbing the route.

Go climb it before you say another thing.

P.S. Where is the movie and the money from kick start?????
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 25, 2011 - 03:04am PT
At ease. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Steve, we missed you at dinner tonight.
LAP

Boulder climber
Nov 25, 2011 - 09:34am PT
Steve Schneider
Pete Chesco
Bill Russell

The only question left is, who used a can of stew?

Lucinda
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 25, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
Those who can...do. Those who can't(self included)...talk.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 28, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
Did someone mention "shit talkin"?

Can we take up a collection and get Steve and Mimi Grossman tickets? Only $10 each. BTW, the formatting of the text did not come though, click the link for the BOLD ALL CAPS here and there version. I would advise Ammon and Kait to not click it, cause there might be sh#t all over ropes: round 2.


Mark Smith Slideshow
Mon, December 12, 2011 7:00PM to 9:30PM (Pacific)
[Download to Calendar]
Hosted by Mountain Leadership Institute

http://mountainleadershipinstitute.givezooks.com/events/mark-smith-slideshow?mid=53


EVENT DETAILS

Big wall climber, Mark Smith, presents a slideshow of his route, Wings of Steel, the most controversial climb on El Cap. Journey back to 1982 and experience sabotage, starvation and slander as they put up the hardest aid route on El Cap. The climb, trashed by locals as being a "bolt ladder" ultimately proved to be harder then their critics tough language and egos. Countless attempts by some of the best aid climbers in the world ultimately vindicated Smith and his climbing partner, Richard Jensen. It wasn't until 2011 that Ammon McNeely and his partner, Kait Barbor spent 13 frightful days on Wings of Steel and finally put up the second ascent (see the current issue of Rock and Ice Magazine for their harrowing account.)

Come hear Mark Smith tell the epic story of storms, starvation and sabotage on his first ascent of the most controversial climb on El Capitan.

This event supports the scholarship fund of Mountain Leadership Institute.

At least it looks like it goes to a good cause.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
GOD ALERT!
Floyd Hayes

Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
Steve, with due respect to all of your accomplishments, I've read both sides of the story and I don't think your and Mimi's smear campaign is very convincing.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
What's the Mountain Leadership Institute?

It would be useful if Ammon and Kate were also there, and made a presentation on what they saw in 2011 in terms of holes and 'enhancements'. Or perhaps someone can videotape the presentation, and post it somewhere like YouTube.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Dec 10, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
It's over!
Da_Dweeb

climber
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1689566/Wings-of-Steel-A-confession-ALL-with-an-olive-branch

So happy to read this. Steve Schneider has Duke Nukem style Balls of Steel. It's so good to see this wrap up in such an overwhelmingly positive way.

I love you all.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
The ponys. please stop with the effin ponys fer christ sake. its downright creepy! Almost as creepy as SG and Mimi....
Da_Dweeb

climber
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
Fair enough, aye. But tell me Tradman, in the above picture, which pony are you?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
brett

climber
oregon
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
effing Lord of the Flies, this story is.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 10, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
Here is the link to Steve's graceful apology and the team's graceful forgiveness

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1689566/Wings-of-Steel-A-confession-ALL-with-an-olive-branch

Peace

karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 20, 2011 - 06:45pm PT


FreeClimberDude

Trad climber
CA

Oct 8, 2011 - 11:08am PT
Isnt this how schneider got his nick name? From his girlriend mimi? Shipoopi

Is this true? Was Mimi Steven's girlfriend at the time? Did she coin his nickname?

Steve came clean in his apology thread, but doesn't mention how he got his nickname or why Mimi is so involved.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 20, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
maybe mimi makes a mean homemade stew!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Asgard or bust
Dec 20, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
Hey, Treez!!!
I dunno if you got my email, but I'm so stoked.
Above & beyond, BrotherMan. That's you.
Big Thanks!
Hope to see you in Haines sometime.
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Spent a great day in the valley this past Monday. Mark, Rich, Ammon, & I got to meet up and talk about our ascents on Wings of Steel. Here's a photo of the first and second ascent teams in the meadow.
bob

climber
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Now that's a shot!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Mar 28, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
cool! Thanks for that Kait!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
That truly Rocks!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Mark emailed me today to tell me all about it. He said that the highlight was finally getting to meet Steve Schneider face to face. I'm glad everyone got a chance to make their peace. Looking forward to the movie!

Nice pic, Kait. You gonna be on the wall this spring?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Nice photo, Kait!!

Did they say anything about (ahem!) Wings of Plywood?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/518116/Wings-of-Plywood-less-infamous-but
kaitb

Big Wall climber
Mar 28, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Pete, it would be great to be able to be on the wall this spring. But I doubt that will happen. I have been working 60 hour weeks out at the mine. Hopefully this summer if I'm lucky.
The Wolf

Trad climber
Martinez, CA
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Great photo, looks like everyone was having a great time
Gene

climber
Mar 28, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
Glad to hear that SS and the FA guys met. Nice final outcome.

Thanks, kaitb, for the picture.

g
llk

climber
May 3, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Over 3K posts about a climb,a sh#t and some ponies.
Get over yourselves guys!
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
May 3, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Please shoot me the day I get over myself.

Great photo! Thanks for posting...
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
May 8, 2012 - 03:19am PT
The film is still in the works, although I think the focus is changing a bit... I'm not sure, I'm not that much of a film guy.

Anyway, it was awesome to have met Mark and Richard and tell them first hand of what I thought about WOS.

The bottom line is: Don't go up there if you're not ready to take a ton of falls.

Cheers!
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
May 8, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Wow, super cool stuff, great ending to a lot of drama.
Much respect to you guys for getting up there and getting some facts straightened out and clearing up some mis-conceptions.
Deadly

Big Wall climber
new mexico
May 11, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Yep, most of the empires have no cloths.

Deuce...I’ve always had respect for you and your ethics. But for years I let unclimbed routes go because I couldn’t see a way to connect the “natural” features without drilling. Then I came across drilled holes on your routes. Some in Zion have fixed beaks in them, I guess the idea being that removing the beaks would destroy the holes. All this is respectable. But unless you are Rienhold Messner and have never drilled a bolt, it’s being a hypocrite and playing rock good to speak of “natural”, “non-enhanced” and ethics.

Much, much respect and kudos to Pass the Pitons Peter. I‘ve been out of climbing for a while and just now discovering your achievements. Kudos for being fun, not having an ego that keeps you from seeking the truth, and for speaking the truth when you find it.

Did I miss a thread (I still have not read them all) where the other anonymous people that treated or spoke poorly of the WOS FA team apologize, or at the very least grow some balls (or virginas) and acknowledge their deeds (besides Steve). For something you are (or were) so passionate about protesting for so long you are a bunch of pussies when it comes to telling who you are.

Steve, I can see something positive in all this. In coming forth and being truthful, you set an example for the newer generation of climbers. I’m sure they will do stupid things when they are young too. But hopefully they won’t let too many years go by before they go, hey you know what, I’m going to do something cool, do like Steve did and make it good.
MisterE

Social climber
May 31, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
Bump to give Ammon and Kait congrats on the "Honorable Mention" in the Climbing Mag "Golden Piton Awards" for this year.

They'll be queuing up now...
Ahwahnee Bartender

Big Wall climber
Fog Town
Sep 12, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
Sorry to bum everybody out by putting a WOS thread back at the top of the forum but:

Did anybody ever get their movie they ordered? Still looking for mine but maybe the postman tossed it in the trash to save time on his delivery route. It happens (you know who you are).

Anyways, for those who got what they ordered: Was the movie good?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
But, Mighty, is it a wall climb or a slab climb?
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
Sep 13, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Much, much respect and kudos to Pass the Pitons Peter. I‘ve been out of climbing for a while and just now discovering your achievements. Kudos for being fun, not having an ego that keeps you from seeking the truth, and for speaking the truth when you find it.

I think you're getting your facts mixed up, haa haa!

Sorry to bum everybody out by putting a WOS thread back at the top of the forum but:

Really? Why would anyone get bummed out? It's been said a THOUSAND times, if you're not interested... don't click! At least this is a climbing thread, ha ha.

I don't think the film is out yet. Jeff is still doing interviews from what I understand.
Ahwahnee Bartender

Big Wall climber
Fog Town
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
Thanks Aamon, appreciate the latest on the film. I really want to see that thing. Hook on brother!
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
Me too! Can't wait for the film!

It never really ends, it's one of the Mobius Strips of our community - just the most recent "big" one.

There is this one:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/825943/Cerro-Torre-the-lie-and-the-desecration

Countered by this one:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1725375/Cerro-Torre-A-Mountain-Consecrated-The-Resurrection-of-th

Can't forget about this one!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/566859/Doug-Robinson-Sean-Jones-rap-bolt-South-face-of-Half-Dome


Feel free to add to the list.

I still can't figure out why we, as climbers, are arguing about politics, religion, aliens and conspiracies when there is so much fodder in our localized community.

Bump your favorite internet climber wrangle!


Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Sep 13, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
*(whiplash)*

LOL Pretty quick on the draw there Jaybro.



Edit to add: That shirt was payment for getting E and I hitched BTW - one of a kind.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 13, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
it's one of the Mobius Strips of our community - just the most recent "big" one.

can not leave out this "gem"

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/73572/1977-Airplane-Crash-in-Yosemite

however I think this one has run its course, until the book comes out.

No way I am bumping it!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 13, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
I thought that picture, with that smile, puts some of this into perspective, about how silly this can get and how much we're really all in it together.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 5, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
Bump
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Dec 22, 2012 - 08:33am PT
dubBump
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
When does the film come out?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Yuk!!!.....this silly thread is back.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Yuk!!!.....this silly thread is back.

I started it; I can end it.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Dec 22, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
Rust in peace.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:25am PT
bump for the good old days
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 22, 2013 - 11:48am PT
I sat down with Jeff for a lengthy debunking session on camera right after the Oakdale Festival.

It will be interesting to see what he choses to include.

"These young men weren't persecuted by anything other than their own foolish arrogance" made the cut I bet. LOL
Skeeered

Big Wall climber
the otherside of the crack
Sep 27, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
I understand that you^^ "were" a good climber in your day...but after reading this thread and watching the flick... you seem like a total d!ck.

So, after all these years, what's the consensus on WoS...is it the hardest aid route in the valley?!? RoF?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 27, 2016 - 03:42pm PT

Crikey!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Caz

Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA.
Oct 2, 2016 - 10:02am PT
Wow! I came back to the taco stand just in time for this to pop up!

I see things haven't changed

SHOTS FIRED!

Zac
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 6, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
bump
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 6, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
Yukk!!!
Dogtown.

Trad climber
Marshell islands atoll
Jan 6, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
I was there when it was put up, was witness to the whole controversy and over reaction. Turns out Mark Smith and the Mad Man put up a skillfully done climb. One of many that the are responsible for. Known for their aid both are good free climbers as well.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 6, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
I know that I'm inadvertently bumping this thread, which I would avoid if I could. But....

Please, God, NOOOOOOOOO!

No more!

Accckkkkkkk
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 6, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
Tut,
If that is you schooling a fool about Russian Roulette; Planning to rap "of" one bolt.
A Single bolt, in crap rock @ the Pinnacles. A fool calling it self bignobody,
thnx for your perseverance!
There is no big thing about nobody ~iye', What A Maroon!~

I think the level of the debate has shifted to the damage of the reputations of all concerned.

The climbing sounds solid, Constant long fall potential and wicked hard climbing.

The need for anyone to prove anything to anyone has passed. What remains are bad feelings
About a great route and the reputations tarnished by egotism & xenophobia.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 6, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
Sorry, but I really wish this thread died a silent death. The term "haters" was birthed here in terms of usage on ST. I think that is a simplistic derogative too freely thrown around. It was not only applied to the "shitters" but also to people with different opinions.
I imagine that "Wings of Steel" is a fine climb and kudos to the first ascentionists but a thread laced with the terms "shitters" and "haters" in post after post makes my blood crawl.
It is, after all, one of many climbs on one of many cliffs in the wide, wide world of climbing....and climbing, mind you, wonderful activity that it may be;,is, in the final analysis...just climbing.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jan 6, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
The climbing sounds solid, Constant long fall potential and wicked hard climbing.

The need for anyone to prove anything to anyone has passed. What remains are bad feelings
About a great route and the reputations tarnished by egotism & xenophobia.

That in a nutshell sums up the whole Wings of Steel grand finale.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jan 6, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
Yup Jim, I HATE the term haters. It is used to describe anyone with a different outlook, opinion or perspective. If you're not with the rest, then you're just a hater.

Haters gonna hate. Why don't people try to understand the other side more often instead of taking the lazy way out and use the term "haters"?

I know there's gonna be some haters now giving me sh#t for speaking out.
Oh well,
Love lives here!

Edit-I'm still with Steve Grossman on it though. Guess I'm another hater
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 6, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
Kind of a hater.

:-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 6, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
a thread laced with the terms "shitters" and "haters" in post after post makes my blood crawl.

Finally, Jim, on something we are agreed.

Let's let 'er die.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jan 6, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
Kind of a hater.

True that. But you know I love dogs!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 6, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
There were never any "shitters" - there was only one "shitter".

But he no longer exists as such, because he felt bad for his actions and apologized, asked those he wronged for forgiveness, and was forgiven. A free gift, as it were, with no need for resitution paid.

Accordingly his slate has been wiped clean, as has his identity.

"Yup Jim, I HATE the term haters. It is used to describe anyone with a different outlook, opinion or perspective. If you're not with the rest, then you're just a hater.

Bollocks.

Everyone has a right to his own opinion, and to disagree. Certainly that does not make one a hater. However if one perceives oneself to be thought of as a hater, one ought to look in the mirror and ask oneself why.
Aeriq

Sport climber
100-year Visitor
Feb 10, 2019 - 10:17pm PT
Bump.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Feb 11, 2019 - 09:35am PT
I hate you Erik.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Feb 11, 2019 - 09:47am PT

E leading on the Second Ascent of Winds of Change, right next door to Wings of Steel, but definitely not as hard!







I brought up my little piano and Jacob Raab brought his flugelhorn for a Big Wall Jazz Jam. Plenty of folks heard us playing John Coltrane and Thelonius Monk from all over the wall, and right down to the Meadows and Bridge.









E. leading around the left side of the Pinnacle of Hammerdom while Neil belays - quite a terrifying place. A few days earlier, we got a minute or two of a "rain of sand", exactly what happened the year before on Waterfall Route before the big rockfall.

The route traverses up and left to the base of the Pinnacle, so we figured we'd be safe. It turns out the WHOLE Pinnacle of Hammerdom is QUITE expando - the crack on the left that Erik is leading was a fist crack in the afternoon sun, but three hours later after the rock cooled, it closed down into a hand crack, crushing two of our Camalots which we could NOT get out!

The entire feature is over two hundred feet high - one wonders how much longer it will remain attached. I would definitely recommend avoiding that area....
Bargainhunter

climber
May 6, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
Defecation has consequences...somewhat climbing history related

"Defecating superintendent sues over release of mug shot"

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation/defecating-superintendent-sues-over-release-of-mug-shot/

I'll show myself out now...

PS: Dumb jokes aside, this is an amazing thread to read start to finish. Truly one of Supertopo's greatest.
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2019 - 05:29am PT
PtPP, killer content. Spectacular looking line (Winds of Change).
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 7, 2019 - 01:28pm PT
Winds of Change is actually a decent route - we enjoyed our time up there.

WoC is certainly more "climbable" for mere mortals like myself than Wings of Steel. The hooking on Wings of Steel is way above my pay grade - I backed off as it is way way WAY too hard for me. I simply cannot put myself in the situation where 30- to 50-foot falls are not merely a possibility, but a certainty. No thanks!
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
May 7, 2019 - 02:02pm PT
Wait a minute PTPP! You just recommended Never Never Land to me recently. Now you post on this thread to avoid the area. WTF!!
klaus

Big Wall climber
6th and Mission
May 7, 2019 - 02:54pm PT
That last picture is actually on my route Hole World. Dick Jensen joined my route here and finished my pitches to the top which he had to drill all over because A2 is too difficult for him.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 7, 2019 - 04:05pm PT
"Drill all over"?

I saw one added bat hook hole to bypass a six-to-eight-inch-wide mud- and plant-filled crack directly below where that photo was taken.

Didn't see anything else?
klaus

Big Wall climber
6th and Mission
May 7, 2019 - 04:43pm PT
You failed to see the bolts that your belay is clipped to?? and all the others above? Stoopid Canadian or just a Liar?
Aeriq

Sport climber
100-year Visitor
May 7, 2019 - 07:45pm PT
When the WOS dialogue gets stale,

just move the complaints laterally.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 7, 2019 - 08:53pm PT
😀😂🙄😱
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