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radical
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 11, 2002 - 06:11pm PT
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Found a book on John Muir yesterday that is incredible on all levels. If ya haven't already read it and ya love Muir, it is highly recommended.
"John Muirs Last Journey"
South to the Amazon and East to Africa
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Mike
Novice climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 10:01am PT
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I saw a good book called "Stikine" that he wrote about a dog he met in alaska. It was pretty entertaining...cool pictures.
How does a guy who's been dead for that long come out with new books?
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 11:08am PT
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Radical,
Stop trying to act cultured and sensative. It's an act.
You are still (and always) a dick for your chest thumping post re; West Crack.
Rehabilitation is going to take more than sniffing flowers and spouting "oh read THIS obscure Muir..."
Yea right.
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Moby
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 11:15am PT
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Get over it George. You're being a first class A-hole.
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Moby
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 11:15am PT
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Get over it George. You're being a first class A-hole.
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 02:54pm PT
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Radical, er.. Moby...
Did you develop a stutter?
Well... I stand by my original post...
and? I think you are also a dick.
Well what do ya know~~ that makes you.. a character in a Herman Melville novel!!
Oh.. you don't read? Except those colored ones with the drawings and the little ballons above the drawings filled with hard-to-understand words? I guess you won't be able to read this reply then..... maybe your Mom can read it for you.
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Mike
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 03:10pm PT
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Let it go, George...resentment like that will hurt you more than it does anyone any good or bad. Radical is human like all of us.
Anything about Muir is bound to be interesting. I'd like to read about his ascent of the Muir Wall.
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 03:26pm PT
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You are a good man, Mike.
Sometimes I spew out of pure boredom. Or stupidity.
Climbers are a brotherhood, and we should never lose sight of that (even slow Gumbies on W-Crack, right Radical?).
Peace out.
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 03:45pm PT
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P.S.
Mike,
In the spirit of Love and Brotherhood, I’ll refrain from flaming you…
..ya see.. Muir had a gift for adventuring, but I think him climbing the SE face of El Cap in the 1860’s would be about as easy as flying a manned rocket into space…
First ascendants Yyon Chouinard and TM Herbert named their 1965 route in honor of John Muir.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 03:49pm PT
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Lovers of Muir...
I believe he had quite a few.
Fellow derelicts and I were enjoying another evening slide show at the lodge, this one about Muir. Suddenly, Dr. Swilly blurted out "He was an Indian rapist!" Some tourists were a bit shocked. The rest of us laughed hysterically. What a bunch of punks.
Rapist or not, he will always be a hero in my book.
The Father of Yosemite.
-=-=-=-=-
George, pull your head out of your ass!!!
You are obviously too ignorant to see that Radical is actually a cool person. Find something better to do.
Cu
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Mike
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:01pm PT
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Thanks for your civil response, Geo....but I got ya on that Muir Wall thing!
= }
Easy on my bro Geo, Copper...he might just be the next chairman of the Neck Manipulation Squad...and he went easy on me...Keep it SICK, homey!
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:01pm PT
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CH,
I just made a peace offering to the world~~ and then I read your inflammatory stupid post?
Yea, Radical is one excellent individual.
I want to be just like him so I can zip past the gumbies and make fun of them on the ‘net afterwards.
Truth is.. I was him. I’ve simul-climbed and soloed past any number of slower climbers on routes in the Meadows.. Mostly with a big smile and a hello. Certainly never re-told the story afterwards about how light they were. And how studly I am.
So I stand corrected. Radical is a cool Dick person.
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George
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:04pm PT
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Mike-
Two points and a high five .. you got me good.
Well, screw this music... . I have 4 hours of daylight left; the granite crag is 90 minutes away... I am outta here now and...
I love you ALL and that includes CH and Radical and all you crazy disaffected lunatics..............
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:10pm PT
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G
Are you suffering from inflamation?
Don't take the forum so seriously; you're just working youself up.
Maybe you need to laugh as much as I do. Radical is just talking sh#t. Have you never done the same?
Piece...
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stupid moron
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:19pm PT
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All replies to this post are stupid, and all replying are morons.
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Copperhead
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:42pm PT
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Now, now. Don't make me bitch slap you!
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self-righteous stupid moron
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 04:45pm PT
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Damn, thanks for proving my point so succinctly Copperhead. Couldn't have done it better myself.
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Mike
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 05:15pm PT
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We need a chat room sumpthin awful...another way to not climb and waste time...
= 0
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LEO Pete
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 05:26pm PT
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After reading through this thread, I'm a little surprised it degraded to this considering its genuine start. Some of you are real bastards for slinging sh#t at radical on this one, and I'm amazed to find I'm defending the guy.
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Jay
Novice climber
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Sep 12, 2002 - 05:54pm PT
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Radical did admit he's not perfect and I'll wager that you George aren't either.
Anyway... I tried to read one thing from Muir (years ago), it put me to sleep in 5 minutes. I guess I chose the wrong book. What would y'all recommend as a good intro to Muir's work?
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hist
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 06:28pm PT
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Muir never put any food on my plate. He didn't invent anything, and he never brokered any major peace agreements in the world. He sure wasn't no war hero. Muir, yea right.
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hmm...
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2002 - 06:38pm PT
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are radical and coppertop the same person...? yes, a chat room would be quite nice indeed...
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Eye No
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 03:15pm PT
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Copperhead is not radical - but he is quite SICK...
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lucy
Novice climber
oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 04:50pm PT
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If you are a lover of John Muir, a must read is Kindred and Related Spirits, edited by Bonnie Gisel. It is correspondence between John and Jeanne Carr who was a mentor. They were both very Bible based in their beliefs and had a tremendous respect for God's creations. A little sensitivity is required to appreciate the book, so you maqy have to set aside macho climber attitudes. They were both instrumental in seeing that Yosemite was recognized as a special place. Enjoy. Praise Jah!
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 04:55pm PT
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Thump.
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Jason
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 06:41pm PT
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Lucy, I'm 100% sure it was one of those suggestions that put me to sleep. An the sensitive side of if was probably what did it. Didn't he write some pulp or science fiction or something? I'm a gen X, action junkey, I need to read more John Long I guess.
Anyone ever read the short story "Requiem for Ronny" by John Long? True or fiction (I don't know), great tail. One of the best! Thanks John for that one.
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Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 08:43pm PT
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I don't care how hard he climbed. I could have kicked John Muir's ass easy. I would have knocked him on his tree hugging butt.
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Old Guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2002 - 10:09pm PT
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..on a semi-related note....
it WAS John Long who once wrote the Stonemasters of the early 70's were equal parts John Muir, Olympic athlete and Dobie Gillis....? Tho I think ya'll were a bit more like Maynard (scruffy, social inept, loved the rasta tobacco....)
What's that make climbers of today like?
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C
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2002 - 12:47am PT
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...t...
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C
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2002 - 01:58am PT
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He's got an attitude and can't even see straight. That's pretty funny (and pathetic). What do you expect from a rummy?
...somebody better clean off all these empties before we get busted...
Climb the Muir Tree!!! The more adventurous, the better.
Trivia: Has anyone ever bivied in the Muir Tree (modern times; the entire night)???
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1 i'd
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2002 - 02:14am PT
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huh?
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John Long
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2002 - 06:43pm PT
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Hey:
The short story, "Requiem for Ronnie," was, action wise, a composite of various river running stories/lies I heard over the years. The character of "Ronnie" was based on a guy I met while working (age 15) as a slave and pot scrubber for rafting outfits on the Colorado River during summer break of my sophomore year in high school. It (the story) was never meant to be a historical or journalist piece, but a "story" in the literary sense.
Many folks in the outdoor adventure world hold that a good story must be "true," or factual. I contend that writers such as Borges, Hemingway, Conrad, et al, wrote many good stories that in fact were entirely fictional, though usually drawn from personal experience. In a sense, magazines like Outside and the like have ruined the literary adventure tale by encouraging only factual accounts. It's an interesting argument, but an argument totally separate from the tale itself, which lives or stands on its own merit.
JL
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nathan
Novice climber
sltMany folks in the outdoor adventure world hold
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Sep 14, 2002 - 11:07pm PT
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>I contend that writers such as Borges, Hemingway, Conrad, >et al, wrote many good stories that in fact were entirely >fictional, though usually drawn from personal experience.
And Melville. Let's not forget Melville. Their granddad.
>In a sense, magazines like Outside and the like have >ruined the literary adventure tale by encouraging only >factual accounts
And National Geographic. And Krakauer. Journalists. Not story tellers.
Write us a novel John. Please. Grisham can do it. He even makes lawers look heroic.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 03:28am PT
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Hey John,
I've enjoyed your stories for years, but became somewhat disappointed about a dozen years ago when I started to meet and become friends with some of the real inhabitants of your stories. I guess my belief at the time was that writers of fiction blend together details from their reading, experience, thoughts, etc. to create original characters, plot, etc., but I thought that if a story used real names it should be factual.
At the time I was dismayed to find out that Steve and Hugh hadn't actually hit golf balls off the Dawn Wall; only talked about doing it. I started to realize that many stories were a mix of fact and fiction. For awhile I was ambivalent; on the one hand I had to admit I enjoyed the stories, but on the other I felt there was something wrong with this confabulation.
After spending many more summers in the valley and other areas I've come to understand the need to write just the way you do. If I want facts there are plenty of sources, but if I want enjoyable storytelling about people like the ones we all know, then there shouldn't be any rules except that they be entertaining and true, but only in the sense that the stories capture the reality and the absurdity as a whole.
How can someone create, from whole cloth, a fictional Yosemite with fictional characters and fictional misadventures and still capture the feeling of it all? Difficult if not impossible. Most writers of fiction create their own little worlds out of their experiences, but our little world of climbing is too small and strange to change much without losing much more. Truth is stranger than fiction, but quite often truth can be improved upon.
Cheers,
SL
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 04:35am PT
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After going through the "R&I...mags in general" topic I wonder if I've been trolled, and trolled hard. Has JL ever really visited this site(vivalargo@aol.com)? Oh well, fact or fiction my post stands, and btw I am the real Mr. L whoever the f*ck that is. vivalargo@aol.com???
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dissed
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 10:34am PT
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me too- me too! vivalargo@aol.com has not produced a response. Someone somewhere is probably laughing at all of our emails sent to our hero.
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Largo
Novice climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 15, 2002 - 03:53pm PT
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Dear SL:
I feel like a slacker working the Net on a Sunday--with all my buds out cragging--but my shoulder is buggered up so there.
You raise an interesting point about using particular names (per Hugh and Steve in the story, "Wall Rats"), but you have, IMO, misconstrued the liberties I took with what they actually did (re: hit golf balls off El Cap). The process you put forth is actually the reverse of what I did, which is to doctor the "facts" not to hop the story up, but to tone them down. If I always provided genuine scenarios (especially about Hugh and Steve) few would believe them and many would bash them/me for gross misbehavior and crimes against mankind. Such as the time we (Hugh, Steve and I)were cooked on mushrooms and were motoring back into the Valley and out junker car ran out of gas by the golf course down past the park's south entrance. Solution? We vandalized a Curry Co. truck and boosted the gas tank. And that was just the start of that particular fandango. That was twenty five years ago but those are the bare facts. Rather than put that into the story, I decided on the toned down version of the golf balls, which got the spirit of the guys across without citing the shameful crimes we so often committed. Nowadays I would just tell the "true" story, with all the bark on, but I wasn't so bold ten years ago. That's why it always seemed amusing to me to get branded as strtching the "facts" while most of the time I was serving up a sanitized version of some pretty terrific tomfollery.
Fact is stranger than fiction, and in the old days when I'd serve up the facts, the mags would reject them outright and we'd setle on a lesser version of same.
Also, since this is a thread about Muir, there is a story about JM hanging out in a tall tree when a storm suddenly descends. Can't remember the title, but that story is a keeper and a must read for Muir fans.
Ciao!
JL
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radical
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 04:56pm PT
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Jason, "The Wilderness World of John Muir" is a must read. A smart guy like you just has to read this book.
If you haven't read any Muir, it will surprise you to read what an amazing inventor, explorer, and naturalist he was.
After this book there are some great books that concentrate on specific area's, like specific journey's, or tales of his many mountain adventures.
If you are still interested you can read about his final journey in the book I originally posted about.
Just reading the preface and forward of "John Muirs Final Journey" blew me away. It gave me new insight into the shallowness I, and the world, understands almost everything.
My bro copperhead, ya might know the guy who wrote this book. "Michael P Branch, Associate Professor of Literature and Environment at the University of Nevada, Reno"
radical
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radical
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 05:22pm PT
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I've read almost everything John Long has published. Some of the stories I've read 10 times or more.
I would be very surprised if most of what has been written under JL is not JL.
If it isn't John Long, he or she is a very smart person, and that person is a pleasure to have around.
I shared a rope with JL once in the gym in Santa Monica. I belayed him on the wall and he did the same for me on crack. I tried to get him on the 11.b crack, which I had wired, and he saw me for the idiot I was.
Burnt me off in about 2 seconds ....smart guy..wish he would write more..
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old guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 11:30pm PT
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boys,
let's stop wondering.. it ain't Memorex..
think we got the real deal here. El Largo hisself...
the only climbing writer with vividly Genius Pathos .....
(echos of Hunter S Thompson, Jack Kerouac and maybe even Ken Kesey..plus John Muir and Dobie Gillis)
now I suppose I could ask him some sorta trick question to verify .. ? but .. might not be fair.. .. we're talking near 25 yrs ago? To wit- John- I tagged along with you and the Keith Cunning crew and we all gangbanged a first ascent (standard JT procedure..). crack out near Jumbo Rocks.. route you had eyeballed previously.. looked like a teepee- hence the name Nottahogen (think that was your pun? "Not a hogan..."
I've no idea of the thing ever saw light of day in a guidebook. Now- you had said you'd already done 50 FA's that season, so a relatively insignificant one probably slips the gray matter.. but the trick question is..... who led the thing?
Now- I have to admit - being a novice climber with maybe 9 months under the belt, getting keelhauled up a FA 5.10 w/ J Long.... (hand crack to flared wide roof chimney? requiring chicken wing arm bars ~~~yikes) . pretty exciting stuff..
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old guy
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 11:37pm PT
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or on the other hand.. we could be butt of a really good troll....
....... how will we ever know.............................................?
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Snowshoe Thompson
Novice climber
Genoa NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 11:40pm PT
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>Also, since this is a thread about Muir, there is a story >about JM hanging out in a tall tree when a storm suddenly >descends. Can't remember the title, but that story is a >keeper and a must read for Muir fans.
"A Wind Storm In The Forests" from "The Mountains of California"
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holmes
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2002 - 11:58pm PT
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jl,
i have read many of your books and i hope you continue to write.....very entertaining and lots of useful facts for beginners
like myself.......keep it up.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2002 - 12:04am PT
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I'm convinced that the JL in those last two posts is the real deal. I'm not so sure about some of the JL posts in the "R&I......mags in general" topic that's about to fade to the back pages.
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