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crackfiend
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 18, 2008 - 07:27pm PT
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Just got word about this........ very sad news..
This was a press release from the park
" Climbing Fatality on Touchstone Route in Zion National Park
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> James Martin Welton, 34, of Durango, CO, fell to his death while climbing in Zion National Park on Friday, October 17, 2008. The fall was from a popular climbing route called “Touchstone.” The cause of the incident is currently under investigation by the Washington County Sheriff’s Office in cooperation with the National Park Service. At approximately 7:15 p.m. two climbers who were ascending a nearby route stopped a Zion Canyon Shuttle Bus and reported that another climber had fallen. Rangers on scene determined that Welton had fallen approximately 300 feet and confirmed it was a fatality. His two climbing partners witnessed the fall. Eleven members of the Zion Search and Rescue Team responded and worked through the night removing the victim and investigating the fall.Touchstone is one of the most popular big wall climbs in the park,located across the canyon from Angel's Landing. Over 1,000 feet high from river to rim, it is usually a two-day climb requiring an overnight stay on a “port-a-ledge,” a cot-like device attached to the wall. Welton was considered a very experienced climber. He recently completed a climb of El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. This is the first fatality in the park for 2008, and the sixth climbing fatality since 1983."
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Oct 18, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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My condolences to his family & friends.
So sorry to hear about something like this.
Life is short. Grab it by the horns & go for it, you never know when your last day will be.
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sfotex
Mountain climber
Montana
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Oct 18, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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James has been living in Elko, Nevada and spent a lot of time in Utah/Salt Lake. RIP.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 18, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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Very sad news. My thoughts are with his family and friends. :(
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Oct 18, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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My heartfelt condolences to the family and friends - this is very sad news indeed...
-Tom
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 18, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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Sounds like a clip in failure at the top of the third pitch, the first place one can stand without holding on.
I don't know who wrote the release but if you need a portaledge and two days you shouldn't be on the route.
Zion had no wall accidents, fatalities or rescues for a quarter century. Then a bunch of topos got published. Now three people have died just on my routes there.
I think there is a connection there.
People assume climbing in Zion is like climbing in the Valley.
It isn't.
Serious business folks. Sorry to hear it, but I only wish I could say I was surprised.
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City
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Oct 18, 2008 - 08:24pm PT
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Sh*t was there Friday and saw them climbing. My condolences to friends and family.
Shawn
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 18, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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Condolences, it's alway a tiny bit more poignant when you've been there...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 19, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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Ron's comments about topos, increased popularity, and accidents rings true. The East Ridge of Mt Temple is a Canadian Rockies classic and one of the 50 Classic Climbs by Roper and Steck. Within 2 years of that book coming out there were a number of rescues and deaths on the route because it was more involved than people thought from the description. Not a hard route but you have to be comfortable with climbing in the Rockies. Just like Zion you have to be used to the area.
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 19, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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Sad story. Anyone have any details on this acident?
Prod.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 19, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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Any death while enjoying the outdoors in any form is a bummer. I am not sure that 3 deaths in 25 years is enough of a correlation to statistically say it is a result of route info being published. However, the comment regarding 50 Classics and the Canadian Rockies I have heard but not for Mt. Temple, rather for the Wishbone Arete on Mt. Robson. Lets face it, climbing is a fairly popular semi-mainstream sport. The accident rates are going increase.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 19, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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hey there all... say, very sad to heara this.. my condolenses to the family and friends...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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Allen,
I said 25 years WITHOUT.
I hate being misquoted.
In the nineteenth century it was commonly believed that "rain followed the plow", a regrettable misconception. However, there well COULD be a relationship between the availability of route info (routes tend to look easier on a topo than when you are run out off the deck) combined with the misconception that Zion has a rescue crew who's competence compares with that of Yosemite (and this much I'll give Werner, Zion does not), and the increasing frequency of said crew's deployment in recent years.
In the old days people didn't call for rescues because it likely would have been a waste of breath. I think it is more than dumb luck that none were required.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2008 - 12:57pm PT
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Oh, and while the press release said 6 since '83, only three were technical climbing fatalities to my knowledge.
For example; the Jim Dunaway fatality occurred while scrambling unroped, although a rope would not likely have helped.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Oct 19, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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My deepest condolences...
No matter the reason why this happened; this is a person that loved, was loved and will be greatly missed. I feel for his family and friends.
--------------------------------------------------------
The AAC statistics say there are 21.8 climbing fatalities per 100,000 attempts.
Popularity means more people, more people means more accidents. It is just that simple.
We "know" climbing has always been a dangerous sport that lulls people into a false sense of security. This false sense of security is suffered from both experienced climbers and newbies. That is why I always worry about my friends, including Bachar. Remember that all it take is a hold to break, a rusted bolt to pop, a harness to fail, etc. Always be careful my friends, I do love ya'.
AF
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sibylle
Trad climber
On the road again!
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Oct 19, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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This tragic death shocked my son, Tristan, and me. Tristan and I climbed with James Welton in June at the City of Rocks. He certainly seemed extremely competent and safe (I wouldn't let my son climb with someone who impresses me as unsafe). He also was very pleasant, nice, and gracious. An all-around great guy.
It's especially sad for us because it's the first person with whom Tristan has climbed who died soon thereafter. It's a hard lesson to learn, and one I have been through way too many times.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Oct 19, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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Condolences to James' family and friends. RIP brother. Must have been awful for James' partner, and must continue to be awful.
Maybe leave the moralizing about topos and increased deaths to another thread? I don't know, maybe this is the place for them. I don't think so.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2008 - 05:42pm PT
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You are right.
Sorry, just my reaction to such sad news.
Probably a lesson for us all there. Hopefully the analysis of this incident will succeed in isolating the cause.
Sounds like the guy knew what he was doing.
I can think of too many times I've caught myself nearly screwing up big time.
Its easy to slip up.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Oct 19, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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That is the truth, PR.
But for the grace of chance/fortune/god/the weather/my partner/rockfall/etc etc etc ad infinitum, there go we all...
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 19, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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Ron, I was not misquoting you or quoting you - as you said above
"while the press release said 6 since '83, only three were technical climbing fatalities to my knowledge" that is 3 deaths in 25 years. This was what was in the SL Tribune today which I was quoting and thought was reasonably accurate give the comments in it.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 19, 2008 - 06:39pm PT
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Ok, now that that's over. For all the people who post on this site, and who know god knows how many people, do we have an details on what happened?
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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Oct 19, 2008 - 09:17pm PT
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I'm not sure about the details yet and maybe I should wait with responding until I do, but I climbed the Salathe Wall earlier this month with James and he does not fall into the category of an ill-prepared climber lured by a glossy topo. He paid his dues in the mountains and I'm sure whatever happened to him was the result of an accident that could have happened anywhere -- not something specific to Zion, or Touchstone, or any place for which some topo has been widely distributed. The Salthe was his first El Cap route and he climbed it like it was his tenth.
I rarely meet people as kind, intelligent, caring, motivated, and genuine as James. I'm glad I had the privilege to spend time with him. He will be missed by everyone he ever touched.
--Pete
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 19, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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hey there pete... say, i just saw this, and i must say:
thank you for saluting your dear friend... death is so final, and the one that passes on, has no way to speak of his final hours, and what happened or why... his moment is gone... folks can only wonder... and their way is left "undone"...
thanks for trying to "tie up any lose ends", and for playing his cards as best you could, and as correct as you could...
friends are forever, and i know everone here holds that dear...
once again, very sorry to hear of this awful loss...
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Oct 19, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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Very sad news. Condolences to James's friends and family.
Many of us will probably be watching this thread for details of the accident...
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 19, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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These are the accidents that hit home. A competent climber on a route lots of us have been on.
Sad. RIP.
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Oct 19, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Piton Ron,
Just because you think before feeling doesn't mean your heart is in the wrong place. You are just an analytical thinker. I know you mean well and wish to find the causes to prevent this from happening again. It's a noble desire...
AF
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Oct 19, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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This sucks! Sad to hear the very sad news :-(
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 20, 2008 - 12:40am PT
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hey there piton ron,
say, anastasia said a good thing to note, there...
everyone "tunes up their ears" to all these sad accidents in different ways, so as to help, watch, look, study and learn--we are all different, and we have different jobs to do, to help folks through all this...
some jobs are seemingly hard to understand, and such, too, to others... so we must all remember this, too...
good job, anastasia... :)
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nick b
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 20, 2008 - 09:13am PT
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I only hung with James for a few weekends, but I sure will miss him. He was a good guy, and this is a terrible loss.
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Double D
climber
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Oct 20, 2008 - 12:02pm PT
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This is very sad news indeed. My condolences and prayers go out to all of James family and friends.
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yossarian
climber
WA
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Oct 21, 2008 - 10:26am PT
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More info:
Zion spokesman Tom Haraden said Welton was unmarried and his parents live in Iowa. Welton was climbing with Matt Tuttle of Kamas, Utah, and Robert Hooker of Elko, Nev.
His Durango address was on Misty Lane, but Haraden said Welton had been living with Hooker in Elko for the last six months.
Touchstone Wall is a 1,000-foot climb from the Virgin River to the top and usually takes two days with an overnight stay on a portable ledge. Haraden described Welton as an experienced climber and said the investigation so far does not assign blame to Welton or specifically his equipment.
"While the cause of the incident is still being investigated, Welton was climbing a rope using mechanical ascenders. It appears the ascenders may not have been fully engaged, resulting in a 20-foot fall along the rope. When the ascenders did fully engage, the shock severed the rope," Haraden wrote in a news release.
Haraden said he wants to get accurate information to fellow climbers.
"We want the climbing community to know, because when we don't, all the blogs just guess. It makes for a big mess, and we want people to learn," he said.
"They can assess his technique and equipment, and if something could have been done differently, they can spread the word so it doesn't happen again."
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 21, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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How could this happen? Jugging a skinny line? Wow.
""While the cause of the incident is still being investigated, Welton was climbing a rope using mechanical ascenders. It appears the ascenders may not have been fully engaged, resulting in a 20-foot fall along the rope. When the ascenders did fully engage, the shock severed the rope," Haraden wrote in a news release. ""
Prod.
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Anguish
Mountain climber
Jackson Hole Wyo.
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Oct 21, 2008 - 01:12pm PT
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Confirming earlier post; this from NPS morning report:
Preliminary investigation reveals that Welton was climbing a rope using mechanical ascenders. It appears that a short fall occurred, causing the ascenders to sever the rope. [Submitted by Ray O’Neil, Plateau District Ranger]
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Barto
climber
Minneapolis, MN
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Oct 21, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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I know that canyoneers jug 8mms.
Do any of you wallmeisters haul and jug 8s?
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nick b
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 21, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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From rockclimbing.com (http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1993384);:
DETAILS ON JAMES'S MEMORIAL SERVICES
In Iowa:
Viewing on Friday, 24 October. 4-8 pm, scripture service at 7pm. Hugeback and Chenoweth Funeral Home in New Hampton, IA. www.hugebackfuneralhome.com
Funeral on Saturday, 25 October, 10:30 am. Immaculate Conception Catholic Church in Charles City, IA.
In Salt Lake City:
Memorial service on Saturday, 1 November, 4:30 to 8:30 pm, at the private home of a friend of James and Jamie. Details can be found at www.lifetributes.com/JamesMartinWelton
Please help me by linking or posting this information to the other climbing blogs, websites, forums, etc. that are tracking memorial statements for James. I need all the help I can get right now.
Thanks, all,
James's girlfriend, Jamie Fields
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 21, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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Ho man! This is alarming.
The ascenders severed the rope?
A short fall?
If the height reported was correct was he attempting to free the third pitch while seconding (a tempting prospect since the jams are so solid)?
What kind of ascenders?
Did the "fall" torque the rope into the cam in an unintended manner?
This is a very sad event, but an opportunity here exists to learn a lesson that might save others. Crackhead was out of line before. I wasn't trying to make this about me. But every time somebody dies on a route where I made critical decisions it gives me pause for consideration and tends to re-enforce my dismissal of critics that say I make routes too "easy".
There is evidently risk enough.
Indeed, if one looks at the numbers "easy" routes tend to make some climbers fail to appreciate some hazards. And that IS a lesson that can be rough to learn.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Oct 21, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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A severed line while jugging, that's a terrifying thought. Even staying tied in to the end and diligence with back-up knots doesn't cover that failure. No plausible or practicable way to make the rope redundant in a jugging system.
Sobering, awful.
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ricardo-sf
Sport climber
San Francisco
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Oct 21, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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condolences ..
.. and i hope we get more info on this accident .. important to know would be
1. diameter of rope
2. brand/type of ascenders
3. any other attachments that he had to the rope.
.. dobtful that he would have free climbed above his ascenders (thats way too dengerous and from what i've heard on this thread this was a safe climber).
.. how far was he from the previous belay when he severed the rope .. (was he alreday ascending .. or coming off the belay onto the ascenders)..
scary stuff to severe the rope .. i usually have 1 or more dreams about that when i am on el cap..
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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Oct 21, 2008 - 07:22pm PT
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This is sad news, as always when a climber is injured or killed while pursuing "our" passion, I am left feeling personally saddened. My condolences to friends and family.
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climbnbikegirl
climber
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Oct 21, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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I had the privilege of knowing James for a short while and spent some time climbing with him. He was an expert climber and always respected the danger that came with his passion for climbing. He was very encouraging and supportive of my climbing and always made me feel like I could finish the route even if I doubted myself. He also made a mean batch of cinnamon rolls in a dutch oven!
The climbing community lost a good one last Friday. My hearfelt sympathies to his friends and family. He will be missed.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:04pm PT
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Here's basically what happened:
The team was climbing as 3. They climbed pitches 3 and 4 separately but decided to link the hauls in one shot. Matt was at the top of pitch 4, James and Perry were at the top of 3, and the bags were hanging on the haul line near the top of pitch 2. Matt had finished pitch 4 and fixed the haul line onto a pro traxion and backed it up. James was to jug the haul line while perry cleaned pitch 4 because the rope was in reach of the 3rd belay, albeit weighted already with the bags. I'm pretty sure they were using James' 9.5mm 70 m static line -- the same one we used on the Salathe a week before with no issues.
James somehow malfunctioned the attachment of his jumars to the taught haul line, but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor. He began sliding down the haul line until one of his jumars finally engaged some 30 feet later or so. There was a sheath piling found on the scene, so we know he broke the sheath first, initiated a sheath fall, and finally the core broke after the sheath fall ended and shock-loaded the system. He and the bags fell 300 feet to the base. Other details are not known yet. We do not know how James failed to attach the ascenders properly, but we do know that he is used to using the new BD ascenders and for just that pitch he used the petzl jumars.
Please folks, understand that jumaring taught haul lines is not safe and should always be avoided. I had a close call on the Nose in 2003 when my partner jumared a taght haul line and we broke a pro-traxion in half during the lower out. It cut the sheath, and the backup knot I tied saved his life. I only use pro-traxions these days with a full strength swivel and a big locker in the bottom hole.
When climbing as 3, the second should always jumar the slacked haul line first so he can be backed up with knots or a gri gri, then the bags can be lowered out. In their case, it was not possible because they linked the hauls. If you link hauls like that, the second should clean the upper pitch first, then the third should jumar the lead line after it's been cleaned rather than grabbing the taught haul line and comitting to it. Plus, linking hauls like that is usually not possible anwyay because the haul line hardly ever hangs within reach of the intermediate belay. And also, saving time by linking those hauls is counterproductive when you consider that to get the other two up safely, you'd need to wait until the upper pitch is cleaned before the third can come up.
If a taught haul line is going over a lip, you cannot pass it with 2 jumars and because you cannot be backed up with a gri gri or knots, you are only on one jumar during the maneuver. It's also too much strain for the hauling device and is more likely to chop ropes going over sharp edges. It doesn't save time to do it this way either. Just avoid it no matter what. I've climbed many walls with 3 people and always jug an unweighted haul line. The one time we did otherwise (on the Nose) my partner almost died.
--Pete
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
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Thanks Pete for the information.
Wow!
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
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Pete, thank you for posting up.
A question would be, does the weighted line lay against the rock during that haul? Is it possible that his ascender problem occurred from the challenge of trying to move on the weighted haul line, as it lay across rock outcroppings? This might have involved unclipping an ascender to pass it over an outcropping. Difficulty reattaching could result in a static fall onto the bottom ascender, and no other way to be attached to the haul line during the pass.
Condolences to his friends and family.
-Kate.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:17pm PT
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Sad.
I've jugged weighted lines but was always careful to keep it at 25Kilo or less.
Just to be clear, with pitch numbers does "4" end on the ledge after the first less-than-vertical pitch?
That would involve a swing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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That really sucks...God bless him. My condolences.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 22, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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My condolences to the bereaved. And thanks to Pete for posting this information. I have not really thought enough about the added danger of jugging a tensioned line.
An equipment question I might pose; does this case make a good argument for not using static lines in actual climbing? I don't know if it would have made the difference here, but I wouldn't want to fall 30 feet onto a static rope.
I have always thought every rope I am carrying should be able to be used as a lead line if necessary. Thoughts?
Again, my best to his friends and family.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:29pm PT
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One aspect of jugging a weighted line is that, if the load is heavy enough, it essentially turns a dynamic line into a static line, as the "stretch" is removed because there is a heavy load already on the line.
-Kate.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
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Considering that people jug tensioned lines all the time I would venture that this speaks more of climbers and jugging and not line tension.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
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Really depends on the line used Kate.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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Combination of line and load matter.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:49pm PT
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"Combination of line and load matter."
Cavers on the whole weigh more than climbers and have taken horrendously long falls onto many types of ascenders. One fall I am aware of was in the neighborhood of 80ft. Sheath ruptured and absorbed energy while core held. Cause of fall was glove stuck in ascender. Another fall was about 150ft. This person held their ascending knots open for the duration only letting go to brake their fall with their hands. The act of letting go of the ascending knots caused them to grab saving the persons life.
The falls I have described took place on 7/16ths rope and not 9mm.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
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As people try to make sense of this type of scenario, their minds are driven into endless speculations .......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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his ascender didn't grab, he took a long slide, then shockloading the rope with ascender 'teeth'.
Okay, Werner? Seems totally plausible to me. Make sure your ascenders are 'on'.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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Jugging tensioned lines is an accepted practice but there are aspects one must be aware of. One thing to be aware of is that ascenders are rated for specific diameters of rope. If climbers are using a rope at the minimum diameter then maybe tension on the line would reduce the diameter of said rope beyond minimum ascender dimension.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
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Hence trying to locate the spot Werner.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:17pm PT
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"As people try to make sense of this type of scenario, their minds are driven into endless speculations ......."
Since my post was just before Werner's I'll say this.....y'all are in our territory now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:23pm PT
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Daylight caving?
Why do climbers weigh less?
I've caught some doozies.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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"Daylight caving?"
The nylon highway....call us 'kings of the road'
"Why do climbers weigh less?"
To keep their tendon/bone connects?
Climbers would destroy themselves or freeze to death caving at climber weight. Not met many cavers eh?
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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I have jugged up a taunt line. I never had a clue that it was a bad idea. Now that I read this it appears so obvious that I can't understand why I didn't figure it out on my own. Funny how that works...
Big thanks for the information.
AF
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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Try as I might, I can not resist.
FWIW
Caving:
Small people can get through smaller holes.
When the water was cold and the hole big, I used a dry suit. Wet suits did not exist then and dry suits could be found at army surplus stores. Sports stores carried only baseball equipment then. Never needed a bat in a cave.
Climbing:
Weight: If we routinely walked on our finger tips then climbing weight would not make a difference. As it is we are asking the small muscles in the fingers to carry a load normally carried by the big muscles.
Ascenders: The existence of ropes with widely varying diameter make falling on an ascender a crap shoot. We need some testing on this to see just how bad the problem is. Now.
Taut Lines: No matter how careful you are while jugging, you will have bounce. if the line is also carrying a static load the rope will bear on an edge over a much more limited length of the line. The wear is more local and is more severe.
Hurrying: Mistakes, I have found, are an order of magnitude more frequent when in a hurry.
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Double D
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:32am PT
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I've always been of the mind set to have all lines dynamic and leadable in a pinch. My hunch from reading about this tragedy is that the static line was probably a good portion of the problem. Although I've never jugged weighted lines, I don't think that's the main issue unless it was a skinny line (which it doesn't sound like from the accounts above).
This is the first time I've ever heard of a rope shearing under an ascender fall but 18' on a static rope is not a pretty sight.
My prayers go out to his family, friends, partners and the recovery crew.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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"We do not know how James failed to attach the ascenders properly, but we do know that he is used to using the new BD ascenders and for just that pitch he used the petzl jumars."
Was he using these Petzl jumars?
http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:01am PT
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Don't know Riley.
Since I'm a scared chicken sh'it, I keep one eyeball peeled on my juggs at all times, and on traverses all eyes,(I use CMI ultra ascenders), and use the mantra ...
If your number is up your number will be up.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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" .... but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor ...."
Hummmmmm???
If he was using these juggs .... after releasing his daisy chains from the anchor he "might" have done what you just described Riley?
Again a speculation scenario if he was actually using those juggs?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:15am PT
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Here is my $0.02. My guess is that the rope sheath needs to have some measure of "looseness" for the teeth of the ascender to grab the rope effectively. If the rope and thus the sheath are under a lot of tension, then the teeth of the ascender cannot grab into the sheath effectively and the ascender just slips down the rope unable to get a decent purchase.
Bruce
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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Oct 23, 2008 - 03:31am PT
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Condolences to his family and bereaved ones.
Regarding the supposed problems with the Petzl ascenders,
the complaint that has been cited (at http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/); is very
unclear and probably misleading at best. The core of the
complaint is the following statement:
"It is the protruding edge of this curved surface that
unfortunately forms an arc wedge with the elongated smoothness
and continuous angular position needed to induce lateral
displacement of the safety catch when it is moved upward against
a rough rock surface."
This statement is at best very unclear and terribly written.
Terms are not defined, and technical sounding words are used,
giving it a veneer of technical respectability. I find the
above quoted statement to be meaningless. I find it very
annoying that someone can complain, yet hold oneself to such
a low standard of clarity in articulating the core of the
complaint.
On a related note, I will say that the Petzl Ascension ascenders
are a common and widely used piece of equipment. Like almost all
equipment, users need to be careful, especially when jugging
fixed lines. It is not fair to simply blame the equipment when some unexpected and tragic accident occurs.
Andrew Barnes
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:48am PT
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We jugged the loaded haul line on the nose. We didn't have any problems.
Jugging a loaded line was discussed here a couple of years ago and I believe the conclusion was that it was safe (in a breaking way). The problems mentioned in this thread was at least not mentioned if I remember correctly.
"ames somehow malfunctioned the attachment of his jumars to the taught haul line, but after he had released his daisy chains from the anchor. He began sliding down the haul line until one of his jumars finally engaged some 30 feet later or so. There was a sheath piling found on the scene, so we know he broke the sheath first, initiated a sheath fall, and finally the core broke after the sheath fall ended and shock-loaded the system."
I have no problem in understanding that the rope broke after a 30 feet fall on a static rope (or on a weighted rope). A jumar is not design for this kind of falls.
The important question is way did the jumars slip on the rope.
My PMI's and also my clogg have round dents on the camming part that makes friction. Petzl jumars have more of downwards pointing tooths that should get into the sheet of the rope. The two types might give different results on a loaded rope.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 23, 2008 - 06:47am PT
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UPDATE -
I was able to get a message to Ken & Sue in Nepal - Thank you to everyone who offered advice and assistance. They are trying to get back to the US in time for James' memorial service. PLEASE PRAY FOR SAFETY ON THE TRAIL AND GOOD FLYING WEATHER IN NEPAL. Thank you.
Previously Posted:
Hi - I'm a friend of Sue Kennedy and Ken Hirst from Elko, NV. James was a friend and co-worker - we are devastated to have lost him. We are trying to contact Sue & Ken in Nepal via the US Consulate to give them the bad news and details of the funeral, etc.. Does anyone know what mountain(s) they were climbing or other details of their itinerary? Please call or e-mail if yes (775-385-7215 or alb_web@hotmail.com). Thanks for the help - Steph in Nevada
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 23, 2008 - 08:39am PT
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I'm confused,
According to Caveman the fellow in the picture in this article is a caver, not a climber as the title indicates.
http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
Smartassness aside, this has been a very informative thread. I have jugged weighted lines a few times and it just felt like I was breaking some rule.
Sure would like to see some beta on this with different accenders.
Prod.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 08:50am PT
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Aren't all jumars known to "pop" every once in a while? Correct me if I'm wrong...
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 09:21am PT
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First my condolences to the friends and family of James Welton.
To add to the discussion, I had a problem with Petzl Ascenders slipping. I was jugging a dry dynamic line, somewhat taunt by a single haul bag. The ascenders were constantly slipping. At first we thought it was due to the coating on the sheath from the treatment of the rope to make it “dry.”
However, when I switched over and started using my friends Jumars, the jugging went fine.
Reading this discussion and looking at the link Werner put up, I have lost confidence in the Petzl ascenders. And disappointed with Petzl for not looking into this issue (if it is true that they have not).
So Domingo, this somewhat address’s your question. Two different brand ascenders, used in the exact same scenario. One brand slipped, the other did not.
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Prod
Big Wall climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Oct 23, 2008 - 09:44am PT
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I have both Petzls and Jumars. I find the jumars a lot more comfortable for my hands so I use them more.
One thing that I did find discerning about the Jumars was that sometimes the top biner from the jumar to the rope would flip in such a way that it would press down on the cam and disengage the unit from the rope. The first time it scared the sh#t out of me as I was jugging up a fixed line 15 feet out from the wall 700' off the deck. After that I watched it like a hawk. Anyone else have this happen to them? Any recommended fixes? I am going to mess around with different biners and see if I have any that can not get into this position.
Prod.
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Oct 23, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Does anyone have a good explanation of the difference between the tensile strength and the working load limit of static ropes?
For example this is from the Bluewater site:
Diameter: 10.5 mm
Tensile Strength: 7198 lbf.
Working Load Limit (WLL): 479 lbs.
Weight Per 100 Feet: 5.10 lbs
The working load limit is pretty low and easily exceeded with pigs and people working on the same line. Right?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Tensile strength is the load/wt. applied that causes a material to break or permanently deforms. The term “safe working load” means the load that can be applied and still obtain the most efficient service and also prolong the life of the material in question.
All engineering applications work off a safety factor. An arbitrary number that divides the tensile strength by the safe working load.
That is how I understand it.
I am sure there is an engineer on this site that has the mathematical equation that Bluewater used to reach their conclusions.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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7198/479 = 15. That's the standard used for rescue work. Just a guideline, not a finite figure.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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Still uncertain of the exact location and whether there was a swing.
When he released from the daisy was it at a sling belay?
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headintheclouds
climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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With regard to low stretch rope: generally a 15:1 safety margin is provided. Divide the tensile(7185lbs.)stregnth by the working load(479lbs.)and you get 15.
guess I'm a little late!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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I experienced the slipping of the Petzl ascender this summer when I used one on a couple of pitches. The slips occurred when I moved the ascender up quickly and tried to weight it immediately. (This is how I have used my old gray body Jumars for hundreds of pitches). Usually the Petzl grabs, but sometimes, if the frame is not aligned parallel enough to the rope, the cam is slightly open. Then when you weight it, it stays opens and does not grab the rope. There seems to be more play in the axle of the cam than on Jumars, which seems to allow this to happen.
I was not using a biner in the holes above the cam, but apparently this is required to prevent slippage:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/frontoffice/Sport/static/services/ASCENSION/B17_en.htm
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=123#
This was a version of the Petzl Ascension, but an earlier model with a metal safety instead of the black plastic safety.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/HECPages/HEC43.html
It was version A or B on the above page, not Version D which has the black plastic safety.
A few years ago, in Hetch Hetchy, I witnessed my partner slide down a rope and nearly die when his Petzls did not catch. However, we don't know the exact failure mode of this accident. He was following a traverse; one ascender may have been off the rope, and the other might have been prevented from catching if his adjustable daisy was caught between the cam and the rope (pure speculation by me, although a similar slip has occurred in caving when a glove got between the cam and rope). His adjustable daisies were burned in the slide, and probably were at least wrapped around the rope, which slowed the slide and helped him survive it. After the accident, my partner bought my backup pair of yellow-body Jumars and has been fine ever since.
[edited to answer Chris2's question]
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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There was some talk of this accident in the valley, a couple years back. Was it out at Hetch Hetchy?
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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Most of my wall climbing was done in the 70's, but I did one in 1999. I would never jug a line without tying in short on the rope I am jugging, which means it can’t be weighted. Am I so out of touch? Do people jug weighted lines routinely now? Do you at least back up the jugs with a prussik or klemheist?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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John,
An example of jugging a weighted line -
When I did Zodiac in the late 80s, we had hammmocks and bivvied at the "ledge for one" below the gray circle. We fixed two pitches above with our two ropes, so our haul line was the lower rope. Because the lower pitch starts with a traverse, my partner could not just release the bag and still have something to ascend. So he "rode the bag" as he released it. And then jumared up the weighted haul line.
I don't jug weighted lines routinely, but will do it if there's a good reason for it. I've done a few walls as a team of 3, and we never jugged a weighted line - the 3rd person always jugged before the haul bag was released from the lower anchor.
[stich: ] The 2nd person waited at the lower anchor and did not release the haul bag until the 3rd person had jumared up the haul line. Then the 2nd person started cleaning the pitch. On the Shield had a 4th rope, so the 3rd jugged on a rope separate from the haul line. Actually this meant we could start the counterweight hauling immediately on the lower angle part of the Shield. On the Salathe', we did not have a good 3-person system, as the 3rd person jugged the haul line, and carried a second set of 2 ropes! Very heavy for the jugging. Later we realized the leader should do a pre-haul by hauling up the second set of ropes before hauling the bag. For a good explanation of a good 3-person system, see:
http://fishproducts.com/howto/howto.html
http://fishproducts.com/howto/ht3person.html
Note, in general I wouldn't recommend a 3-person team if it is the first wall for everyone.
If you have a series of fixed ropes on a route, anchored at each station, you will not be able to tie into the rope unless you release it from the anchor below. But you have redundancy by having two ascenders on the rope. When you take one ascender off the rope to pass an anchor, you can clip yourself temporarily to the anchor to maintain redundancy.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Oct 23, 2008 - 03:18pm PT
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I'm not following all of this exactly, but one thing I am understanding is that with the Petzls (I have a pair that I bought last spring that I have used on one wall, with no problems) if the ascender is not parallel to the rope then there is a risk of the cam not holding. Clint's Petzl instructions show this specifically, and apparently (although this is a part I don't understand) placing a biner in the top hole of the ascender keeps the cam oriented in a safe position.
When the accident occurred it is clear that the haul line was in reach of the belay, hence allowing James to attach his jugs to the line. I'm guessing that in order to attach his jugs, he most likely had to grab the line and pull it closer to himself. (That is too say while the haul line was in reach, it may not have been running in such a way that pulling on the haul line was unnecessary.) If he did pull on the haul line, then perhaps he changed the angle between the haul line and his ascender to one in which the cam would not bite. On the one wall that I did, I never placed a biner in the upper hole of my Petzl jugs, although I very well may in the future. Is seems possible that James did not have a biner in the upper hole.
This is pure speculation, but it would possibly explain why he slid 30 feet down the haul line. As stated upthread, this is the most important question: why did the ascenders not hold?
We all get away with so much, especially when one considers how such a subtle "mistake" could have such huge consequences.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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Clint,
Remember, I was having trouble with mine slipping at the start of the season. I had to learn to slow down, make sure they were locked on, then weight them. Now that I am used to them it's no problem and I feel safer with them than I do with my Jumars. Just a matter of choice I guess. As far as back up goes, with both ends tied off, I am thinking of dragging a screamer, with a Tibloc attached, off the belay loop. What do you think? So sad when a good climber dies. Possibly no fault of his own. My condolences to his family and friends.
Roger Brown
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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Here is some idle speculation. How many of us have a rope with a minor nick in the sheath? Most of the time we do not worry about it because the sheath only adds about 10-20% to the strength of the rope. However, jugging relies on the sheath not the core. Next for a haul line we tend to use worn ropes which may have lots of nicks and other sheath wear.
So I am going to give James the benefit of the doubt that he rigged his jugs correctly but the sheath had a nick in it. His weight which would loaded predominantly the sheath combined with the weight of the haul bag which would have loaded both the sheath and core was enough to break sheath thus causing the fall.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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i gotta come clean..
up until now, i was seconding my rope-soloed pitches using two petzl jumars. i'm pretty careful about keeping them above me, but sometimes a move warrants two hands, and i occasionally climb above my jumars, then pull them up when i can.
upon reading this sad but educational thread, im off to find a new seconding system for rope soloing.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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Roger,
I think a Tibloc would be pretty good as a backup. Certainly faster to put on / take off than a mini-traxion. I am not sure how quickly it would grab on the rope if you started sliding down, though - it might just slide down the rope below you?
I used a mini-traxion and Tibloc for leg hauling on Sentinel, and that was a nice combo, although it did seem to nick some tufts in the sheath a bit. But I don't have one on hand to experiment with as a backup - do you think it would catch OK?
The main thing is that your jugging motion is already adapted to your ascenders. I was using my Jumar motion with the Petzl and was shocked that it slipped. Personally, I would never give up my Jumars for Petzls on a wall, because the extra step of putting the biner on and off the upper holes to put the Petzl ascender on / off the rope is too slow. On the other hand, I'm light with small hands, so the nicer grip on the Petzls is not a factor for me.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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Though it's not really designed for this, if you're going to use a Petzl product for roped soloing, the Gri gri is a better bet.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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I think a Tibloc would be pretty good as a backup.
Those things make me nervous, with all those sharp teeth. I trashed the sheath on one of my ropes playing with rigging a self capture short hauling with one. Tore a long ways down the sheath. Ugh.
I think nothing beats tying in short, but, that's pretty hard to do with a pig on the line. I've heard of folks using a Prusik above a jumar (easy to push up with each stroke, but, I'd wonder if it'd catch). Maybe a french braid?
Something like an USBA basic might work (and be lightweight). Those things travel up a loaded rope pretty smoothly.
Yikes...
My condolences to the friends and family of James. He seems to have positively touched a bunch of folks 'round here.
-Brian in SLC
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 10:51pm PT
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Sad Sad Sad......
Ron, the only way there wasn't a swing from the third belay onto a rope hanging from the forth belay to the top of the second is if they stopped just above the roof as pitch two, then stopped at the next set of anchors in the middle of pitch three, thinking they were on top of pitch 3 and calling the real top of pitch 3 pitch 4.
The real 4th pitch traverses left a bit.
Hey, haven't you been on this route befor? :-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Yeah, but never dressed as a 15 year old girl,..
Anyway, that's why I'm wondering about the exact location.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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pumB
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Oct 24, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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Very sad news. My heartfelt condolences to the friends and family of our brother...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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It surprises me that so many people are hung up on the fundamentals like how to back up your ascenders, using a top biner, etc., and knowing about all the things that can destroy your haul line. I guess you really only come to know this stuff by hanging out in Yosemite for a summer or two and not everyone does that. There are no books out right now that go into very much detail, and not everyone pays close attention to everything that comes across the net. Maybe Chris's new book will fill the apparent void.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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"you really only come to know this stuff by hanging out in Yosemite"
Wow, dude, must be the center of the universe.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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Okay - well - by going through the wall circuit and interacting with a lot of people. That usually involves spending some time in the Valley. In Zion, for example, there is no place where people meet and interact and talk to each other about their climbing, at least not when I was spending time there.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Yeah JLP
I just came from the cafe this morning and all the big wall climbers are in there for their mornings briefings.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 24, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
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In other words, you mean that someone was getting tooled ...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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The reason I said the Tibloc would be pretty good for Roger is that he is ascending many hundreds of feet on fixed rope, doing bolt replacement. The Tibloc should slide up the rope easily, so it should provide minimal distraction, and some chance of holding if things go wrong. It might also just get dropped during one of the many times it has to be removed to get around an anchor or knot between two ropes.
In general, I don't use a backup for my Jumars when going up a fixed rope (anchored below me) - two are on the rope at all times, so they are redundant, and they don't slip under normal clean/dry conditions (they can slip on an icy or very muddy rope if the cam teeth get clogged). If you have to take one off to get around an anchor, you can clip the anchor temporarily.
When following an aid pitch on Jumars, I tie into the end of the rope, and I tie in short whenever I will take one Jumar off the rope (such as on a traverse). I don't use any third device on the rope.
I have heard of people using a third device on the rope - prusik, GriGri, mini-traxion, Tibloc. They have too many disadvantages for me, but they may have some value to others.
 prusik (above ascenders): maybe OK if one of your ascenders fails or slips, but you have the other one on the rope, right? Poor for following an aid traverse, since it is slow to remove and replace. May fail to hold a short fall - see mongrel's post below.
GriGri (below ascenders): OK once there is a lot of rope weight below you; not so good before that. Doesn't work on a tight rope, but that should be avoided or rare. Heavy if carried only for this, but weight not a problem if you prefer to belay with it, like on an aid wall.
mini-traxion: less drag than a GriGri. Not helpful for belaying, but good as a backup ascender or hauler.
Tibloc: minimal drag, light, OK as an emergency backup ascender or hauler with a spare pulley (a bit hard on the rope sheath if used a lot). Might not catch if you are sliding down the rope, if it slides down below you?
Wild Country ropeman would be great as a light backup device for ascending a rope, but it would provide drag as a third device (similar to GriGri and mini-traxion), unless the rope is somewhat tight from below (possibly because of a lot of rope weight below you). It might be best for self-rescue if you are not climbing with ascenders. Prusiks are lighter and cheaper, but slower to use.
If you are looking for a backup device because you are using Petzl Ascensions that slip, clip those top holes with a biner for ascending long fixed ropes. If you are following an aid pitch which traverses, don't use these ascenders - get some ascenders that do not slip. Otherwise you will spend a lot of time moving a biner off and on the top holes in your top ascender (or you could just rely on your backup knot; you are risking a longer fall, though). If you are too cheap to get better ascenders, or you have other reasons to stick with Petzls, then you are in the market for a backup device.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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It's my impression that there is no backup that will work reliably and safely on a taut rope. I think any of the belay or ascending devices will have the same issue, if they slip at all, then catch, you can have a sheath fall and the same tragedy as James. Seems to me I recall a tech tip in one of the rags about using a Tibloc for simul-belay or some such, and a Petzl rep wrote in strenuously recommending AGAINST using a Tibloc for any application in which it might experience a fall. I know from experience that a prussik can easily fail to stop even a very short fall. Unless it engages instantaneously (thus, no fall, just shock weighting of the loop), the thin material begins to melt in only a foot or two of movement, lubricating the surface and sliding yet more... before melting right through not far below. Whatever ascender you are using in this application, I think you must be absolutely sure it has engaged every time you weight it, a bit in the manner of initial steps in bounce testing. It's slow, but you can be sure to stay alive. Or just bring an extra rope. All depends on whether you are OK with a certain likelihood of dying just jumaring a pitch.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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to me it sounds a very scary to
1. jug a line that is being held by the teeth of the pro-traxion
and
2. that line is also holding the weight of the haulbag(s)
... i'm scared shitless enough when i rappel off the haul-line (when soloing) and the line is anchored through the pro-traxion's teeth (backedup into the anchor, but held by the teeth none-the-less) .. -- when you rappel its a much smoother operation. --
.. well .. if we're trying to learn here .. i'd say that
"Be extremely careful jugging a loaded line, and don't do it unless it absolutely neccesary" works for me.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 07:33pm PT
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Damnit Ron, My political asperations are shot!
You've now told the whole world I like to dress like a 15 year old girl, and hangout with dirty old men while they video tape me!
I guess I'll stick to pumping Sh#t, there's a better future in it anyway!
EDIT: Wait.... I guess you didn't say anything about the video.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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Did you rally think that pumping sewage was an important credential for becoming a politician?
Wait a minute. I just realized it IS.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Why are you people jugging a loaded haul line that's loaded on the teeth of a hauling unit?
Put a prussic below the haul unit when you rappel. The rope will then be loaded on the prussic.
Example:
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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Many of you know this, but clipping the top of a Petzl ascender probably wouldn't have done anything in this accident... the cam will still retract 100% with the biner in; the ascender simply can't come off the rope with a biner there.
If the case was that the teeth on his were retracted all the way and he had time to react to that, unfortunately, 30 feet does not equate to a lot of reaction time.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Like Werner and many of you, I'd never heard of this as an issue before, so thanks for the heads up Pete. Especially big thanks to Clint, for the explanation on how it can occur. I can totally see it happening if you are trying to rush and don't set the jug and it's canted a bit as you transfer your weight onto it (2 partners, can't slow them down) or just get in a groove.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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Oct 25, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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About the tech tip for using tiblocs while simul climbing; I wrote that piece years ago for Climbing Magazine in the context of alpine climbing, where falls will almost never generate high force factors and would be only for body weight falls for the second, essentially on top rope. I still think that's OK in low-angle situations, but that's probably all. Anything with teeth is bad news for anything more than body weight or bags or even the slightest shock loads. Combining haul bags and body weight onto teeth is bad news, so I'd agree that backing up jumars with mini-traxions or tiblocs or anything that has teeth should be avoided. Tying in short or backing up with gri gri's is surely safest. I've whipped huge onto gri gris while soloing, so it should work well to catch other types of falls as well.
I think these are all valid comments from everyone, and that we should give this topic much discussion. On the other hand, I think that if you act like every move and every decision on a big wall or even a multi-pitch line could be your last, then you while live long. I watched Drew Wilson fall to his death on an FA in Baffin Island in 2005. He rapped off the end of a 15 foot piece of rope when he thought he was rapping on a 60 meter cord. I am not accusing James of neglect whatsoever. I'm just promoting a sense of awareness that some climbers may not fulfill entirely, or that becomes secondary to the goals of a particular climb. Sometimes, it takes an accident for some people to think critically enough about these things. I have often thought that both James and Drew have given us all blessings in their deaths -- the blessing of hyper-crtitcal awareness that will make us constantly watch that jumar even though it's never slipped before on 500 pitches, or tying knots on the end of every cord that hangs into space. Gear is usually pretty solid but it won't save you when your let your guard down for just a second out of many days spent hanging on a wall. In the case of Drew, it was after a successful ascent that took us 18 days and was just hours away from touching down. For James, it was one week after his longest climb ever and his first grade VI -- the Salathe, and he died on a wall significantly smaller.
I've never been the same after watching Drew fall, and since then I've become a different climber; double checking knots way more often, tying a backup loop in addition to the belay loop, always being backed up while jugging, etc...it sounds obvious, but after my first dozen wall ascents, those things were far less important than they were when reading the "how to" books as a teenager.
I hope James and Drew can instill this awareness in all of us without us having to see another climber die in the mountains. I'm not claiming to be wise or talented -- I'm basically a chicken sh#t climber too. But in these cases, incredibly talented climbers were lost to mistakes that seem so preventable, including Todd Skinner. Often the head is in the right place for the leader but the techincal aspects are slightly overlooked for some reason -- the last time I was in Zion my friend miscalculated the swing on a basic rappell and broke his pelvis on Moonlight Butress earlier this year. It almost seems that more people are hurt or die on the more basic tasks rather than falling off Reticent Wall or dying on the Bacher-Yerian. Perhaps moments on the lead require that awareness, but rigging and gear management is more like a chore, where it is diminished.
As for objective hazards, that's where I start having issues about the whole climbing thing...
--Pete
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Ha. I was wondering about the source of that stat.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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I was wondering if the parts got hot inside that device on the way down.
You could check the ends of the rope for melting.
If they were really hot when it grabbed the rope, that could be a factor.
But not if it was just coasting freely along the rope.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 27, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
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It was a Protraxion that failed and led to this.
"On October 17, 2008, James Welton fell to his death while climbing the Touchstone route in Zion National Park. The National Park Service subsequently conducted an investigation into the cause of the accident in cooperation with the Washington County Sherriff’s office. Their findings have been released. The three-person climbing party had climbed three pitches (approximately 180 feet) without significant event. When the member leading the fourth pitch had reached the pitch’s top anchor, he tied the end of a rope into it. The climbing party’s gear, weighing 104 pounds, was attached to the bottom end of this rope, which was to be used as a haul line. The climbing partner then ran the haul line, which was also Welton’s ascending line, through a Petzl Pro-traxion device, a pulley which incorporates a cam allowing for rope capture as rope is hauled in. The climbing partner pulled 15 feet of slack through the Pro-traxion prior to Welton starting his ascent. The group planned to haul the gear to the top of the fourth pitch after Welton, the second climber, had completed his ascent. The third party member planned to ascend a second rope, the leader’s lead climbing rope. Welton’s fall occurred when the Pro-traxion failed soon after he started to ascend the haul line. The Pro-traxion operates with a cam and pulley mounted to a fixed plate. A sliding plate allows a rope to be inserted into the device. When the sliding plate is properly closed, a button locks the device together. NPS investigators were able to reproduce the failure of the Pro-traxion during informal tests when the device was closed improperly. They noted that the device could appear to be properly closed (but not truly closed) if the device was weighted prior to the side plate sliding into place. When improperly closed, the device can deform when weighted, causing rope to move rapidly past the cam in the unintended direction. When the Pro-traxion failed, the 15 feet of slack ran rapidly through the device, causing Welton to fall this distance while still attached to the rope by his mechanical ascenders. The force generated by the fall transferred to Welton’s ascenders, which severed the rope, resulting in Welton’s tragic fatal fall. [Submitted by Ray O’Neil, Plateau District Ranger]"
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 27, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Couchmaster, thanks for posting the quote here, but your statement is COMPLETELY wrong: according to the text quoted below, it was not a Protraxion failure but pilot error in not loading and closing the device properly. Rather like saying, after a car accident in which the driver steered directly into a tree, that there was a mechanical failure of the car. To be sure, I would personally not want to jumar on a rope being held just by a Protraxion or Wall Hauler (without a backup knot tied in, not just a blocker knot, a few inches away), preferably not even on a rope weighted with a haul bag no matter what, but it doesn't appear that the device actually failed at all, just that the leader loaded it improperly. The key point is not to mistakenly focus on the device; it's up to climbers ourselves to be sure we use the system as perfectly as possible to prevent this kind of accident.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 27, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Well put mongrel, and, joking aside, perhaps a good rule of thumb is that before improvising techniques to rush a 3 man ascent KNOW YOUR GEAR, what it can do and can't.
It tears me up that so often I see Touchstone used as people's very first aid climb.
C'mon folks, work the bugs out on a few short routes first.
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PD
Big Wall climber
Reno, NV
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A belated response to all of this:
Until this report was released I was using information directly from the man who was at the belay from which James fell. These things happen fast and it was evidently indiscernible to him if it was a failure from the misuse of James' acsenders or from the Traxion at the belay above that caused the shock load that severed the rope, and to him, the evidence on the ground would have appeared to be similar in either case.
It seems the prelimnary investigation had confirmed what I initially reported. I don't know exactly how that information was derived, as one would think it would be evident to the person at the higher belay that the Traxion had spit the rope out from between the cam and the pulley, that 15 feet of slack had ran out instantly, and that the rope had ultimately shock loaded onto a knot at the end of the cord.
The thing that may make this incident perpetually mysterious is that the bags were already hanging on the same haul line and the Traxion had already held 104 pounds without a problem. The hauls were linked from the top of pitch 2 to the top of pitch 4, and when James applied his extra weight from the 3rd belay, the Traxion failed.
Clear Pilot error should have manifested itself at the point where the weight of the bags was initially applied to the Traxion during the lower out. During the time the 3rd pitch was being cleaned, the bags were hanging on the Traxion already. We know they were detached from the top of pitch 2 at that point because the bags decked at the same time as James, so they were clearly not using a fifi hook prusiked to the haul line like in the old days, and no one was at the top of pitch 2 to perform a lower out. We also know that the man at the upper belay was not actually hauling at that time, or his jumar would have been sucked into the Traxion to arrest the fall. The new report indicates that the slack zipped through the device rather than being completely ejected from it as in my case.
I will not speculate as to whether the cause was pilot error or the Traxion itself. Evidently the Traxion can be rigged in such a way that it will hold 104 pounds of bags first, then simply fail with the light application of another 165 pounds (the total of which is considered acceptable use of the Pro-Traxion). In my case and I believe in James' also, we did not have biners in the bottom hole, but fortunately my backup knot was less than a foot behind the Traxion as opposed to 15. In my case, having a biner in the bottom hole would have prevented it from spitting the rope out, but having not seen the NPS "demonstration", not having spoken with the man at the upper belay, nor having seen the device after the incident, I cannot say with certainty that a biner would have made any difference in James' case.
This is hopefully the last I'll write about this until new information arises from somewhere or the NPS issues a new report. I stand behind everything I've written on this thread, but now I know that my friend James had absolutely no reponsibility for his death. I still agree that it is dangerous to jumar a taught haul line -- even it is fixed on a bomber anchor with a bomber knot -- but his use of his own jumaring system in this case had nothing to do with the severing of the rope. As for the Traxion, until I see the NPS demonstration I cannot fully understand what went wrong.
The existing report one is below:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,7662,7662
--Pete
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Chris Biow
Trad climber
Reston
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Just to update the statistics on risk per climbing year, I'm beginning to doubt the conclusion of the study mentioned above. While climbing deaths have been fairly consistent in the 20-40 range per year, I believe that study greatly underestimates the total number of active climbers at 100,000, at least if projected forward to 2010. I suspect the number is about five times that. provides a reasonable discussion on the climber population. So actual risk today may be about a fifth of the level stated in that study.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 17, 2014 - 12:47am PT
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Get Outside on St James Day - Oct. 17 - RIP James Welton
On Oct. 17, 2008, my friend & co-worker James Welton died in a climbing accident in Zion National Park. James, an expert outdoorsman, loved the wilderness and had to live wher there were mountains to climb. During the week of Oct. 17-24, 2014 (and every year), please honor our "St. James Day" in this way: GET OUTSIDE, then take a picture of YOU LOVING BEING OUTSIDE, and post it for all to see (including James' family and friends). Whether you hike a 14er, push the stroller around the block, climb a frozen waterfall, or put out your arms & spin in the sunshine - GET OUTSIDE & LOVE IT!
#GetOutside #StJamesDay #Oct17EveryYear
James was a mountain first-responder, a seasoned mountain climber and camper, a true friend, a life-long learner, and a natural teacher. He made climbing - and all of life - look easy, with his effortless, flowing style in both. James loved life, his family, Jamie, and being outside most of all. He has absolutely positively affected each person who had the pleasure of knowing him, just through being James - and many who didn't, through "St. James Day" OUTSIDE.
Here is a link to our Facebook event, if you'd like to post there:
http://www.facebook.com/events/529420640525487/?ref_dashboard_filter=upcoming
Thanks in advance - Steph
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Oct 17, 2014 - 08:52am PT
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Awesome way to commemorate your friend. Sounds like a great idea. Thanks for the link.
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StephNV
climber
Elko, NV
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Oct 17, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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It's been 7 years today since James' accident in Zion. We all still miss him. Our family and friends remember him each year by taking a "St. James Day" to go outside & do something between October 17-24. We commemorate with a photo, then post it & tag it. Please join us if you wish - we'd love to see what you did on YOUR "St. James Day!" Steph#GetOutside #StJamesDay #Oct17EveryYear
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
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Wow what a bump. I like the idea of celebrating his life, and after recently getting off a wall I very much feel the pull of gravity and hope to avoid any pilot errors in my long career ahead of me.
PD, I remember running into you a few times in Zion. In fact I remembered your name after just reading "PD" after, oh, 6 or 7 years! I hope you are doing well, you were very helpful to me when I was learning and extremely friendly - something I wasn't around much as I started my journey.
Peace to everyone, hug your buddies and have some adventures with the best plans and techniques you can.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Oct 17, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
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I just had a friend die in a canyoneering accident in Zion. I'm sorry for your loss. For me, being outside is not what I love most of all, but for those of you do, and for those who love you most of all, I'm wishing you the best.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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Sorry for your loss, I have a few friends who knew that party as well. Very tragic.
Is being in the outdoors what I love the most? Not at all. My family and friends trump the outdoors and always will. I think of them often when I am out there, and how to be responsible so that they always have me around. I hope they do the same, too.
Greg
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