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crackfiend
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 3, 2008 - 03:37pm PT
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I was in the valley right before christmas and was scoping mescalito through a scope and say fixed lines top to bottom. Whats the deal?? someone working on a free ascent? I did remember reading something in Tom's posts this summer mentioning it but was curious as to what the deal is.
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pimp daddy wayne
climber
The Bat Caves
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Yeah those are mine. I'm just brushing up for my free ascent.
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crackfiend
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2008 - 03:59pm PT
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good luck on those dowell ladders, yikes!!!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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That's a bad area for icefall, man. {chop!}
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Yes, a free ascent has been in the works for quite some time. I know who, but I don't want to risk incriminating them so I'm not posting. Let's just say that it's a very capable party. Every pitch is very hard. From what I've heard, the vast majority of the pitches are 12c or harder. When it is complete it will surely be the hardest (overall) route on El Cap.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Hard, schmard. Fixing ropes up an entire route is terrible form, inconsiderate, egotistical and just plain tacky.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Yeah, we had that experience on the Salathe. It definitely detracts from other climbers' experience.
I'm all for people freeing aid lines. BUT, I'm not into people adding bolts to established routes. And, yes, fixing an entire El Cap route is kinda tacky, Rhodo has a point!
I don't think the Hubers, Tommy, or other El Cap free climbers found it necessary to fix an entire route.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Well, let's hope they don't place bolts 14" from perfect Hybrid Alien placements, like what was done on the pitch above The Ledge on Dihedral Wall.
Or how about that newly freed route on the NW Face of Half Dome - Arcturus? - featured very recently in Rock & Ice Magazine. You know, the one with the shiny new bolts drilled a couple feet away from the perfect finger crack that buddy is using? There are at least two photos like that - does this knott piss everyone else off, or is it just me? SHAMEFUL.
The Hubers have replaced old bolts with new ones, but so far as I am aware have never added any bolts to the aid routes they have freed. They are known for bold and difficult climbing, running it out a long ways, and taking huge whippers until they send.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Wrong Roitch... you assume too much... right you are pete.. I noticed that "extra bolt" in the photo too... not good, not good at all...
EDIT:
But that said the guys did a really fine ascent and in their writing they said that the crack that appears to be A-1 to us is in effect not what it appears to be... so I guess since I was not there and they were and did a really sustained effort on a route that is not done much if at all maybe we should give them a pass on this one issue..
The guy doing Mescalito and I had a chat a while back and he said that he would not work on the route except in winter so as to not interfere with the climbers on the route in season. I said that sounded fine to me. One has to realize that doing such a route free is way beyond other free routes done on the Cap at this time. This is a really long route and not much free climbing has ever been done on it and the logistics of such a climb would be daunting, to say the least. I think, and told him at the time, that the ropes are fine as long as they don't diminish the experience for regular climbers who do the route, or piss off the NPS. He agreed fully so I think we should let him have a go at it as it would certainly be a free climb of a new level not previously seen on ElCap. I don't know anything about the bolting issue here but one could not expect a guy to be pushing the limits of free climbing 60ft out above some shitty heads! So some bolting will most certainly be necessary.. Hopefully he will be respectfull of the rock and the route itself... I have nothing but the highest regard for this man and think he will do the right thing in the bolting department. IMHO I think he should be given the chance to do his climb as he has stated his sensitivity to the route and the other climbers who will be on it. Best of luck to him....
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Someday Aiding routes like Arcturus will be the thing of the past, and the Salathe will be the Astroman for our kids. When I saw the R&I pictures I was a bit weirded out by those bolts, but its next to an A1 crack, so it hardly lowers the nature of the route. Personally I would have felt better if he just pinkpointed it and left a few cams in. However I'm not exactly the one freeing these walls, who I want to hear is the Hubers or TC chime in.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Pete, El-Cap Pics, GD,
Have you climbed Arcturus?
The Hubers added bolts to New Jersey to make El Nino
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I think this is the 40th different thread I've seen pete complain about the dihedral bolts. Do something or let it go already.
Regarding those Arcturus bolts, there's a couple quotes in that article from Mike Anderson about them, his rationale for placing them. Since he was honest enough to address that issue directly, maybe people could address that instead of just a photo 'of a bolt next to a perfect finger crack.'
Come on. Those guys don't strike me as the type to place bolts next to so-called perfect finger cracks.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Here are some of the quotes from the article on freeing Arcturus in Rock and Ice #165:
p.55 (pitch 18): "The crack looks as though it would take gear, but was too shallow and flaring. We placed a few bolts."
p.56 (pitch 3): "Before we got on the climb, Mike talked to Royal about the route. He said that he and Dick Dorworth climbed it in the style of the day [free and aid], and that we should also climb it in the style of our day. We interpreted this as his approval for us to establish a five-star big wall free climb, and we believe that we did."
p.57 (pitch 12): "Protecting this was an ethical dilemma for me. Clean gear was out of the question, but it would have taken marginal pins. In general, I think fixing pins should be avoided because they damage the climbing features and wear out quickly."
I don't think the route got much aid traffic, as it was known to have some scary loose blocks (cleaned by the FFA party from above).
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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hate to spill the beans but word is lots of new bolts on this new El Cap line, some on unreprated aid pitches. shame...
but that is all I know. and that is just second hand information so take it with a grain of salt.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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How often is Mescalito climbed as a wall (aid + some free) these days?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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'these days' as in Winter...not that much I'd guess...
'these days' as in during the season, reagularly
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Lambone--
All I can say is, if that's true, then a very popular figure is about to become the center of controversy. But what else is new...
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Riotch--
I don't think you know who you're talking about.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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See my edited post above....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I have never done Arcturus. I read the article in R&I in its entirety, and I do not buy their argument for bolting. If the crack is really A1, then this means there is good pro for every move, otherwise it would be harder than A1. Placing bolts which are easy to clip makes the route a hugely easier proposition to free climb, because you don't have to fiddle in any gear. The Hubers would never have placed bolts next to a certainly-great-looking but perhaps-not-as-good-as-it-looks but still-bloody-adequately-protectable crack.
Until such time as I actually see the route for myself, I should reserve judgement, but it sure as hell looks like a travesty of "convenience retrobolts" to me, not just from the photos, but from the logical argument above.
Todd Skinner appears to have been a bad offender, based on what I saw on Dihedral Wall, and the photos I saw of Wet Denim Daydream. Before going up there on El Cap, I was not aware of the situation on Dihedral Wall - I still think there is some sort of "cover-up" in effect - otherwise I would have brought my tuning forks, bolt removal gear and epoxy to fill the bolt holes. Unfortunately I had no way to properly remove the bolts - I would never chop nor smash them, because I always want to remove the gear in as invisible a way as possible.
I can bloody tell you if I'm ever up on Wet Denim Daydream, and those bolts are there, they're bloody coming out.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Tom Evans--
Thank you for your edit. I couldn't agree more. "Lot's of new bolts" is a very subjective statement, and we should consider what is being attempted. That said, a 120 foot fall can be quite safe in a few circumstances. In others, I don't think anybody in their right mind would have a problem with an extra bolt or two (or three). Time will tell. So let's try to keep the rumors to a minimum and see what happens.
By the way. If anybody needs to make some money, I know where you can get about 3,000 feet of rope to sell on Ebay.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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In 25+ years of living in Yosemite, I've never heard of one person climbing Arturus (I'm sure it's been done but it's rare)
The Topo is certainly a lie as it' shows straight forward straight up A1 crack systems and it ain't so. Certainly such a route on Half Dome would get done more if there weren't a lot of devils in the details. Note that A1 (which is certainly a lie on this route) can also be c3+ or worse.
Mescalito doesn't get done much in the winter but it's super popular aid trade route in season. We'll have to find out the real story before passing judgement.
Peace
karl
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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"Unfortunately I had no way to properly remove the bolts", so I clipped em all instead.
Yeah, spray on blowhard. I personally did not agree with Todd Skinner's climbing ethics, but he was a standard setting guy. Dudes like him are bound to rub some people the wrong way.
If your only claim to fame is spraying about yourself non-stop on the internet (and I think it is) you might consider stopping your constant slagging on Todd.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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One thing I don't understand about this discussion is all the secrecy of who the climber attempting to free the route actually is. C'mon. The guy is not a deep undercover agent for the CIA. He's climbing a route on El Capitan in plain sight of everybody. Heck, Werner or Karl could just hike over to the Big Stone and ask him when he comes down.
Bruce
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Well there are only a few people on the planet who could attempt something like this... the Hubers are not here... so ... who could he be? Seems obvious to me...
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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I wonder who it could possibly be!?
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WBraun
climber
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Me too, hee hee
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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According to the article, it was precisely b/c he thought the aid was easy there that he didn't feel adding the bolts would bring down the aid experience.
I call big stinky bullshit on that.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I'm thinking that instead of everyone being really quiet about whose fixed lines are where, perhaps it should be widely known? After many months of taking aid to eliminate aid, tales of the line-fixer's "free" ascent will be on many publication covers...why keep mum about the process?
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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drum roll please....It's Tommy Caldwell!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Well, to be fair, the Arcturus article mentioned that the crack took marginal pins, and that the choice was made to bolt because of the unsustainable nature of nailing.
I think it is easy to be critical of the action, but to honestly evaluate it you have to look at everything. These guys talked to Robbins, they considered nailing the crack, and ultimately they placed a few bolts (can't remember how many.)
It'd be interesting to get Robbin's take on that article and the route...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Concur with Melissa.
Karl has a point that A1 may be a sandbag rating, and could be C3+. And certainly some of the placements may be difficult, which simply means that you should run it out above the good or easily-made placements, and not add bolts.
"In others, I don't think anybody in their right mind would have a problem with an extra bolt or two (or three). Time will tell."
If you have been climbing an A3 head seam, and suddenly there is a big honkin' 3/8" bolt added to the route, you have substantially altered the route. And the nature of climbing dictates that the most likely place a person would want to place a bolt would be in such a location, where the aid climbing pro is marginal.
Hopefully Tommy won't do this. He told me that while he used Todd Skinner's bolts on Dihedral Wall, he did not place any. And speaking of Dihedral:
" 'Unfortunately I had no way to properly remove the bolts', so I clipped em all instead."
I think knott.
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WBraun
climber
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But!!!!!! Looky here,
You placed a OMG a Pition ......
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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The thing that really sucks is that Sean Leary freed a lot of those pitches on gear before Skinner placed the bolts.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Protecting this was an ethical dilema for me. Glean gear was out of the question, but it would have taken marginal pins. In general, I think fixing pins should be avoided b/c they damage the climbing features and wear out quickly. Robbins once said that if you're going to drill a hole, fill it w/ something good. I would extend that to, if you're going to fix gear, you should fix something good. I also weighed the value of the aid climbing here. The pitch was straightforward A1, so it wasn't a classic or crux pitch."
Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. The pins can't both be marginal and A1. It can't be both very obscure A1 and something that is going to wear out quickly. And straightforward A1 is no less valuable, IMO, than a really hard pitch.
I don't see why pins would need to be truly fixed beyond their ascent. "Filling it w/ something good" applies to the sh#t you leave for others, IMO.
Was the rest of the route (including practice and recon) pinless?
Edit: Mike, if you're reading this, will you post your topo and comment on whether or not pins were fair game elsewhere? If the dihedral in the pic in R&I w/ 3 new bolts in the frame is the "non-classic" pitch in question, the classic climbing must be out this world.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I don't know if the rest of the route was pinless.
But now it has to be, right? It's been freed and the style raised, so no more nailing. ;)
Anyway, maybe Mike Anderson will see this thread and comment, he posts here sometimes I think. He certainly seems up front and honest about the methods and rationale on the route.
I really don't know enough (anything) about nailing so I can't comment on the logical flaws Melissa sees in his quote on the A1.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Concur with Melissa's obvious and observable logic flaws in the Rock & Ice article. If those pictures of the retrobolts are the ones they dared to publish in the magazine, what else did they do that they didn't show us?
You can tie a pink ribbon around bullsh#t, but it still smells like bullsh#t.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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hmm, smells more like an awesome free climbing achievement to me. By guys with jobs no less, not some guy who climbs for a living.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i recognize it's a slippery slope, but-
if someone aids a line, and then for whatever reason nobody ever does it, but it offers high quality free climbing potential that is significantly more appealing than the aid line ever was, and if the FA is on board w/ the FFA wrt equiping the route for free climbing, then you have to at least consider those facts (not that the answers will always be determined by them).
one thing is for certain, the fact is that the people who are actually up there free climbing the route are the people who make the 'final' decisions on such matters.
and of course, if in reading hotflashes or whatever you find that you disagree or are offended, you can just go up and chop all of mike andersen's (or likewise tommy caldwell's) bolts, isn't that how it's done?
...or you can sit here on the internet and pretend that you might someday shuttle multiple loads up there and aid yer way up the rig (best-a luck w/ that), but if you were never gonna go do it before those bolts went in, then i doubt you are ever gonna go chop anything now, so outside of this thread, BFD.
(trade routes on EC and semi-obscure lines away from the road may not be treated equally in such matters, time will tell).
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Why not give the Arcturas guys the benefit of the doubt? They were the ones that were up there and appeared to have made a reasoned decision. It makes no sense to drill a bolt where there is solid pro--drilling is more time consuming and takes more energy. In any case, aid climbs must yield to free climbing, even if it takes some bolting.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Have you climbed everything you're ever going to climb, Matt?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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M- i sure hope not!
re: aid climbs must yield to free climbing, even if it takes some bolting
oh geezz, here we go...
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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It's easier to clip a bolt free climbing then place a piece. Sending a large route becomes significantly easier when there's bolts. Placing the bolt instead of fiddling with gear will save time and help the redpoint. However, it lacks style.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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James you're wrong, I'm the one working the route and I'm doing it all on top rope. If I add any bolts they'll be on free variations away from the aid line. I'll use them as directionals in my single push top rope ascent. I have stolen several lines from YOSAR and won't even have to use multiple toprope anchors. Its gonna be sick, the new standard. I just hope nobody beats me to it.
-Justin
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Speaking of arcturus here:
Pounding pins and bolts both damage the rock. Actually pins damage the rock more but bolts change the safety and difficulty more, so it becomes a style/ethics versus preservation game.
Of course we could expect the free climber could be more bold and run it out but we could also expect the aid climbers to use cam hook, two lobe aliens and C4 clean gear over A1 pins so the door swings both ways.
Matt wrote
"if someone aids a line, and then for whatever reason nobody ever does it, but it offers high quality free climbing potential that is significantly more appealing than the aid line ever was, and if the FA is on board w/ the FFA wrt equiping the route for free climbing, then you have to at least consider those facts (not that the answers will always be determined by them). "
I agree. The route doesn't see aid repeats even though it's not hard. A little compromise to make the route "Bi" (either aid or free) is reasonable.
Wanna complain about retro bolts, just check out the changing corners pitch on the Nose (a route that actually gets aided constantly) REtro bolts just as close to the crack in a place or two
Peace
Karl
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Seeing those bolts right next to a crack with good gear makes me sick. What pitch is it? Is it the stuff above Grey Ledges?
Juan
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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james-
bashing an A1 piton into a flared and shallow crack is good style?
please clarify. and would you go up there and free this line if you knew you needed a hammer to reset critical pins?
an aid climber not expecting to go clean will have a hammer and extra pins ready to go, but not so, generally, for a free climber. on routes that actually get climbed, those placements often evolve to take some pretty good gear, so in a way, a piton is sometimes a temporary and 'necessary' evil.
would you prefer to see a single bolt adjacent to a shallow but climbable crack, or instead have serenity crack up there?
pins were added to snakehike on the 2nd ascent (did roper say he was asked by the FA to add them? i think maybe yes) and if i remember correctly, shapoopi rapped and got the hubers' permission to replace a loosened piton w/ a bolt on one of those EC free routes (GG?), was that poor style? and how is this any different?
the FA gave them their blessing, and mike anderson is not some sport climber you never heard of before.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Justin,
Enough with the top rope rehearsal. Boulder it out man. I'll spot you.
Matt,
If I asked you a hypothetical question regarding an ascent, which neither of us would hypothetically ever do but would love to talk about, would you, hypothetically speaking with special regards to water cooler ethics, give me your hypothetical answer?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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water cooler ethics are the most rigid of all.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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hypothetically speaking, i would prefer to see the piton used, cause then i can say that the shitty fixed gear is the reason i have never climbed that thing, instead of admitting to the crowd at the e-cooler that i don't have the stones for it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Ha,,,caughtinside- that's funny and true.
I was just thinkin' about how many times I've been a little strung out placing marginal clean gear, and sort of reach my personal hairball threshold and gently melted a cozy pin into the crack when I coulda placed another marginal nut. I was up there on the lead, getting scared and the watercooler police weren't around. Ding! Ding! Ding! ahhhh, that's better.....
I'd like to aid Arcturus and gladly clip those awful bolts!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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I've always had the best feelings about those climbers who could do significant things, but still had that knack for flying under the radar. This business of having fixed ropes cluttering up an entire El Cap route seems a bit grandiose. And the aura of secrecy by those "in the know" is just silly.
$0.02.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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"the aura of secrecy by those "in the know" is just silly."
truedat.
and what's more, it's not as if TC is all hush hush about it either. i don't know him at all, and when i happened to run into him i asked him what he was up to and he mentioned it.
seems like fixed lines are part of the game these days. i'd say it's a reasonable approach to fix it in the winter to minimize the inconvenience to others, that's a far cry from fixing the leaning tower or the salathe headwall in prime time.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Yeah, guys that can push to new levels have always been the stuff. I'm lucky to push my own new levels, much less anybody else's. My style has always been to push myself for my own reasons, until I reach the fear to gonads ratio...which is what most of us do, it's just that some have a higher ratio than mine.
B
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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There seems to be a lot of spraying by people who have a stake in the outcomes of their climbs, to the point that it is difficult to know who the "real deals" are. (Not that it really matters, if one climbs for one's own reasons.)
However, when a person who climbs with as much integrity as Tommy apparently does, and takes significant steps to push his own limits with minimal intrusion on the experience of others, we might think about cutting him some slack.
No single individual owns El Cap, but it seems to me if there is a "real deal" who has the perspective to work these incredible free routes, with integrity, Tommy is the man.
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Ω
climber
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Hey Mr Pass the Piton guy,
What is SHAMEFUL is that you have probably damaged and destroyed WAY more rock than all these free climbers you badmouth.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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bump
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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WOULD SOMEONE GIVE THIS GUY A BELAY ALREADY...
Speaking from a Free Climbers prospective I think this is a GREAT DEBATE! I hope it continues in a positive and constructive manner so that as a community we can reach the consensus on what IS and what IS NOT acceptable practice! There has been a similar debate over the eye striking old aid line gone free climb(China Doll) in Boulder Canyon.
The bottom line here is that Free Climbers do not have the right to go slamming bolts in anywhere they please (permanently changing the aid climbing difficulty) on these classic aid routes. JUST AS MUCH; aid climbers should NOT be hammering in pitons on CLASSIC FREE CLIMBS (permanently changing the free climbing difficulty) on routes such as China Doll, Dihedral Wall or Dean Potter's Epitaph on the Tombstone. OR FRANKLY any piece of stone for that matter!
Personally I will ALWAYS prefer a bolt to a piton as it does not change the rock in terms of it's Free Climbing difficulty. Bolts are less permantley damaging, safer/last longer and the minimal damage to the rock can be somewhat restored where as with pitons the damage is ETERNAL. Any PITON HAMMERING aid climber who has such a BIG BEEF with a free climber adding a bolt (were there are only bad piton or copperhead options to protect the free climb) should seriously reconsider his or her reasoning, NO? JUST AS MUCH; the free climber should SERIOUSLY CONSIDER RUNNING IT OUT 40' (if it is safe enough) through that sections rather then add a potentially unnecessary bolt.
I have not been up the Dihedral Wall and did not know that some of these pitches had gone free prior to them being bolted for free climbing purpose! The purist form of climbing is free climbing on all removable protection. This is the future of HARD ROCK CLIMBING! If these pitches on Dihedral Wall DO go FREE on natural gear (somewhat safely) then it is only a matter before it will go free in that style. At this point maybe we come to a general consensus that these bolts should be removed or maybe they should be removed NOW to encourage a free ascent of this style??? If you are a PITON HAMMERING aid climber and not a CLEAN AID ONLY aid climber then you should not be the one up on Dihedral Wall removing the bolts as your HAMMERING is JUST AS DEVASTATING if not MORE DEVASTATING to the condition of the rock and the difficulty or the route (AID or FREE) PERIOD! Aid Climbing does NOT take president over FREE CLIMBING nor does FREE CLIMBING take president over AID CLIMBING they are both valid and equally important forms of climbing. More important is how CLEAN do you AID CLIMB and how CLEAN do you free climb???
FIXED ROPES SUCK!!! On my first trip to Valley last May I was surprised to see fixed ropes on Free Rider from the top of the wall all the way down to the Block. How bad do you think this ruins the experience for a wall climber (aid or free) when they are forced to climb around some FREE CLIMBERS fixed ropes??? REALLY LAME! THIS PRACTICE MUST STOP NOW! Am I right...or NO??? I will say that I did rap in on those ropes and practiced the upper 800' section of the route that day. I will also say that if it were not for those lines I may not have freed the route that next week. Basically as you can see FIXING ROPES ON ANYTHING MORE THEN ON PITCH AT A TIME NOT TO BE LEFT OVERNIGHT; IS CHEATING! Cheating yourself and cheating any other wall climbers that come along out of their PURE EXPERIENCE!
As much as I have been INCREDIBLY INSPIRED by this GUY and would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see him FREE this Mescalito; my first reactions is...I CANNOT SUPPORT the fixed lines! If we give HIM the RIGHT to fix the lines from top to bottom for the potential FFA then we HAVE TO GIVE EVERYONE ELSE that same right, NO? Just because this guy is one of the best free climbers in the world does not mean he is above or better than anybody else. Personally I like him and I don’t think that he thinks that he is better than anybody else. This is why his ropes are up in the MIDDLE OF WINTER!
I am with Tom Evans when he says that "we should give this guy a shot at freeing this route" I for one have to say that I lean towards trusting his judgment as far as the bolting is concerned. Remembering that the future of hard free climbing in Yosemite and elsewhere will be in running it out on removable gear and PROPERLY removing unnecessary bolts on routes that can be adequately protected. PITONS will be a thing of the past as the create to many 5.13 pin scar pitches and there are to many 5.15 climbers ALIVE TODAY. Hopefully this running it out on removable gear/bolt removing tradition does not leak into Limestone sport climbs (at least the bolt removing part) but on granite crack climbs such as China Doll and Dihedral Wall this should be a no brainier. He might be one of the most ethical strong climbers of our time but that does not mean the next guy wont have even better ethics and even stronger and more willing to take the BIG AIR! Remember bro, the worse the gear, the harder the moves, the bigger the air potential...THE PROUDER THE LINE WILL BE! RAISE THE BAR AND SET IT HIGH...just don’t kill yourself doing it dude.
FINAL NOTE: Maybe because this is not a seldom climbed winter aid route the ropes should be allowed to stay up for a certain period of time. Say the month of February or maybe even February and March??? AGAIN the only problem here is if it is OK for this guy fix the ropes...then next year we have to let the ropes go BACK UP for the next guy going for the 2nd ascent, NO? MAYBE because he is BY FAR America's best Big Wall Free Climber attempting something far more difficult then anything EVER FREE CLIMBED IN THE HISTORY OF BIG WALL FREE CLIMBING, maybe he gets special treatment? Like a go team USA kind of deal. Try explaining to the guy who wants to fix ropes on the Dihedral Wall for its 2nd free ascent that "he is just not as important as THIS GUY"!
Maybe you have to rap in with 2-200m lines everyday and just work the route in 600' sections, I don’t know. Would that really be THAT BAD???
BEST OF LUCK TO HIM ON THIS AWESOME FREE CLIMBING EFFORT!!!
SEND IT, SEND IT, SEND IT!!!
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Too many people consider themselves all mightily important and leave fixed lines up routes which definitely detract and sometimes downright get in the way of other ascents. With the increase in "speed climbers" and big wall "free ers" this is only going to get worse.You guys are not that important.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Beautiful big walls are like beautiful women-
Different ones have different ethics about being nailed.
and they can be fickle about it too. First it's ok to nail one until one day somebody makes an honest clean wall out of them, and then they don't want to be nailed by everybody any more.
But others only like to go clean with the really bold guys and but the rest of the guys still nail em cause they aren't good church boys.
Now if they've been nailed enough, they might go for free, and then they act like they don't want to be nailed anymore. They pretend that the nailing that made them what they are today was a bad thing.
but if they haven't been nailed enough, or if they've been been drilled instead of nailed, they might be tough to get for free. They might have to be nailed or drilled in different parts if guys want them free.
So we sort of know the rules: no means no, except when it means yes. Virgin walls are supposed to wait until they are ready to go in a clean way but some guys get too excited and nail them anyway.
It's a complicated world these days. Back in the day, you just nailed em and it was a long time before the next guy got to nail em, but now it's a big orgy of guys and gals doing it all over the place, all the time. There's the benefits of Friends and some folks still don't use enough protection.
Even though many believe that they only want it free, they get flack for doing it doggy style. They for a set of jugs after the same tired pickup lines.
Morality, politics, it's all there. Some guys get aliens to do their toughest jobs and then others say the folks shouldn't use them.
God help us
Karl
Edit
Some idiots have suggested that there is sexual innuendo contained in the post above. If I intended on doing such a thing, there would have been jokes about Hookers and Heads
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Damn Karl...you got me laughing up a lung here....
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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This is an oldie, but a goodie:
Why Walls are Better than Women
By Wally Barker
1 Walls will f*#k you in every imaginable way.
2 There are easy walls everywhere.
3 It's pretty easy to find Walls that really suck.
4 After you do a new wall, it's acceptable to tell your parents.
5 When you're on top of a wall, it's OK to take a dump.
6 You can do walls even if your not hard.
7 You can do walls less than 16 year old and not go jail.
8 You can share a wall with your friends.
9 You can do more than one wall in a day and not feel guilty.
10 Most walls can be done without raincoats.
11 If things get tough, you can always just nail a wall.
12 You can do a wall in public.
13 If you're persistent, easy walls always will go down.
14 Doing 3 walls in a day is something to brag about.
15 Your wall will always wait patiently for you.
16 You don't have to get cleaned up to do a wall.
17 A wall doesn't care when you come.
18 You can enjoy walls all month long.
19 Walls don't get jealous when you do another wall
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rick d
Social climber
tucson, az
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holes are holes.
For aid climbers NOT to carry a complete arsenal to avoid drilling is poor style since many of these modern clean pieces have been available for nearly 20 years.
For aspiring free climbers to taint existing routes with bolts is flawed. Pete's photo is typical of what I have seen as a trend for the past 20 years. Few want to run things out.
...but I found the climbing world out of wack 10 years ago when I abandon my treatise.
I will only read the fun threads from here on out
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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FYI, I talked to Tommy a week ago last Sunday and he said he pulled his lines. He says he needs to get stronger.
-Justin
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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OK.... seems that last post says it all! Hope to see him back up there soon...
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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"Climbing into the Black Arch, with the fearsome Wings Of Steel slab beneath. Note the new bolts which I have shamelessly clipped."
" 'Unfortunately I had no way to properly remove the bolts", sooo I clipped em all instead
"I think knott."
Hmmm. I think so.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Tommy pulled his lines!? Now where I am supposed to mini-traxion- The Cookie?
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JP
Trad climber
Quebec
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Feb 12, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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Aid Climbing SUCKS ANYWAY!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 12, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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interesting, do you think Tommy pulled them in response to posts?
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Feb 13, 2008 - 03:49am PT
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There is a popular 5.7 free climb here that is bolted. It goes safe on gear, maybe 10 feet at most between placements. I've clipped the bolts, I've also lead it on gear.
I have no intention to add bolts to an established line. Nor will I remove bolts in situ. I won't nail where a line commonly goes clean, nor will I decry others for the same. I see a bolt I think is unnecessary, I don't clip it. If I'm too scared to continue with the gear (bolts, pins or clean) that is available, I go home and either grow a bigger sack or find something else to occupy my time.
What it comes down to is the reality we live in is fluid and dynamic Things will change, in a sense things must change because stasis is a vacuum. Other will add bolts, chop bolts, pound pins on clean lines, do easy nailing lines clean at a high level, free things I can't dream of free and aid thing I free easily. I'm personally way to lazy to be responsible for change, and I like messing with reality as much as possible.
Climbing is like life: It's a game, the rules of which we make up as we go along. The only possible reason for playing is because you want too.
I have this very comforting mental image of calvin saying "I win because I freed you aid line" and Hobbes replying "But you're climbing in the freeing is bad zone, so you have to aid three sportclimbs"
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 28, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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“The Hubers have replaced old bolts with new ones, but so far as I am aware have never added any bolts to the aid routes they have freed.”
Pete, you must mean aid routes that are in the guidebook. I removed two Huber bolts to the left of Zodiac pitch 5 in 2004. The Hubers had abandoned this variation and opted for another one to the right of Zodiac. These bolts were in fact on Klaus’ project Abstract Expressionist. Maybe your “bros” didn’t do enough homework… or maybe they didn’t see the fixed head that was right below the lower bolt…
Oh, wait… my mistake!!! They never freed Abstract!
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| Messages 1 - 72 of total 72 in this topic |
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