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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2008 - 11:31pm PT
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From OGs doing pullups to gymrats doing laps,
I gotta ask....
What do you guys do to train (prepare) for pure physical power moves nowadays ?
Climb only ?
Include pullups, weightlifting, gymnastics, yoga, martial arts, stretching, etc. to augment your vertical abilities ?
Re-evaluatingshiz-jb
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wayne w
Trad climber
the nw
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Typical winter workout day for me today...675 sit ups, 300 pull ups, 3 miles w/my poles.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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core strength seems a big buzz these days;
I'm focused on building powerful legs/groin - knowing the rest will fall in line w/ the stuff I LIKE to do. I weigh 139 now, down from 160+ a few months ago but still a long way in terms of real fitness from my goal.
For me diet and yoga/stretching are central.
I try to hit the pool every day, shoulders are the limiter.
Using three different machines for the legs, plus what I do in the pool.
During my layoff muscle mass shrunk quite a bit - it's exciting to see the remaining flab and realize I can easily hit sub 130lbs, again.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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REAL power training.....
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 10, 2008 - 12:01am PT
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For pure power, short boulder problems and campus board.
18 years ago, when I started training power seriously, one of the best tools was some ladder thingy, named after some Bachar guy. I suspect that one would still be pretty useful.
Use weights, yoga, etc, to work opposing muscles to maintain balance and avoid injury.
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Chewbongka
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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Full on endurance monkey sex, it's the only way to stay motivated.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 10, 2008 - 12:25am PT
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A buddy of mine has been trying "complex training" where you mix a set of power endurance with a single pure power rep. for weighted pullups something like:
8 with 15 pounds + 1 with 40
8 with 20 pounds + 1 with 45
8 with 25 pounds + 1 with 50
seems to work for him.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:17am PT
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Maybe Steve Grossman can dig out the old magazine with Largo's "workout from hell" and scan and post it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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Off-Road motorcycling last weekend
Gym climbing yesterday
Mountain bike tomorrow
Gym Climbing Friday night
400 mile Streetbike ride Saturday
Off-Road Motorcycling Sunday
20 minute (minimum) stretching exercizes everyday.
Soon, lot's of climbing in the desert.
Jtree is warming up John!
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marky
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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run hills
weighted pull-ups
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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Weird
Remembering Johns meticulous training methods that were interceded with lots of power training, he must be looking for something he hasn't seen or heard of before that's practical for him.
But all that mechanical training wouldn't amount to much of anything without .......
Gasp ...... soul.
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Chewbongka
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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8 ball and a medicine ball...
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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You gotta try the death march.
You load 4 gallons of water, a fat pin rack, a few cams, a porta-ledge, some food and personal gear into a haul bag and then stumble up the approach to the East side of El Cap.
You just have to do it a couple of times a season and your good for the rest of the year.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Jan 10, 2008 - 02:26am PT
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A pooter board (a hangboard with a counter weight and holds you can barely deadhang, best if you hang straight down with the counterweight not pulling you forward) works really well, campus, and basic lock off training too.
Yesterday, Honnold, Spencer, Zach and I did pull-ups. Zach and I split a deck of cards as did Honnold and Spencer. We took turns pulling cards. Aces were 11 pull-ups, face cards ten, and the others according to their value. We each pulled 26 cards and the pull-up averaged around 185 for each person. If a low card was pulled, then the pull-ups had to be done in an L-position, or super slow, or locked off at some point. My abs hurt today from kipping and doing Ls.
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marky
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 02:34am PT
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pull-ups, done correctly, are awesome for fitness
YET
a lot of really good climbers who crank in the high grades can do only a handful or less
this always puzzled me... I thought, shittt, I can do X pull-ups and [solid 5.12 climber] can only do X-Y pull-ups ... what's the deal?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Jan 10, 2008 - 02:34am PT
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Kipping is cheating James. All pull-ups must be done static with only the tips holding onto the bar.
Besides, footwork will get you up more hard routes than wicked strength. But then John already has the footwork part down pat.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 10, 2008 - 02:52am PT
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i don't train. can't stand the repetition.
tho, when i get motivated I'll do curls. start low, work to high.
i noticed marked improvement with very few sessions on open palm overhanging moves, which is really weird.
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jan 10, 2008 - 07:52am PT
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The Workout From Hell
By John Long
The "Workout from Hell" (WFH), is not my invention (though the name is), nor was it designed for climbers; but having struggled through it, I'm confident the training will work like magic for any climber. Be forewarned: it is time-consuming and arduous.
Some months ago when I began competitive flatwater kayaking, a professional trainer -sort of an iron guru- was assigned to me, with direct orders to whip me into race shape. As I've done my time in the gym, the notion of a special weight geek shadowing me seemed absurd. Just type up the routine and I'll do it myself! WRONG. My "trainer" was no geek, and whatever he was doing worked, because pound for pound, he was the strongest fellow I'd ever seen. More that just an "iron rat", he had recently run a 2:37 marathon. I never would have made it through the workout's first phase had he not been on my case. On occasion, I wanted to kill that man. Now I'd buy him the moon if I could afford it.
I was the first guinea pig my trainer put through the WFH, a cruel experiment combining various strategies and philosophies, proven and otherwise.
The routine is strictly a weight program designed to significantly increase both strength and endurance, with no increase in body weight (providing you watch your diet). High strength to weight ratio is the ideal for flat-water kayaking, as well as climbing. No doubt someone, somewhere, has gone through a similar "progressive" program, but was considerate enough to keep it a relative secret!
This routine assumes certain physiological laws and techniques which are often ignored by climbers, though they are followed religiously by serious lifters. And the "WFH" is dead serious.
First Law: You train the WHOLE physique, not just the muscles associated with climbing or kayaking movements. If you neglect training the antagonistic muscles, an imbalanced, injury-prone machine will be the result. It is fine to center on sport specific muscles, but not to the exclusion of the rest of your body!
Second Law: Pick a muscle group, do exercises which best isolate those muscles, then trash them.
Third Law: Allow the muscles at least 48 hours to recover before blasting them again.
Ignore any of these precepts and you'll get something less than the maximum results. No one of flesh and blood can avoid it.
Phase I
2 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on, 2 days off. That means 4 days a week in the gym. Day 1 you work back and chest; Day 2, shoulders and arms. Then take a day off. Repeat the process before enjoying 2 days off.
DAY ONE: (Back and Chest) Crank 3 sets of 4 back exercises, equaling a total of 12 sets. Of the many back exercises, concentrate on the primary ones: Pull-downs, cable rows, T-bar rows, and maybe 1 final set on a machine (or wide-grip chins). 3 sets of 4 exercises applies to the chest as well. Again, go with free-weight exercises, which tend to be more effective than machines. I usually did flys, flat-back and incline dumbbell presses and finished on the pec-deck. You can consider the last exercises a bonus and change it weekly to add variety.
DAY TWO: (Shoulders and Arms) 3 sets of 4 exercises for shoulders, (12 total). 3 sets of 3 exercises for both biceps and triceps, (9 sets for both). Again, concentrate on the grueling, primary exercises: Seated military presses, standing cable rows, and lateral dumbbell raises for the shoulders (plus you bonus machine exercise); preacher E-Z bar curls, seated dumbbell curls, etc... For the guns; close-grip presses, standing (with bar or rope) and flat back extensions for the triceps.
A Note: "Primary" simply refers to the motions which bomb the muscles most effectively - the basic, fundamental movements. The refining exercises (like concentration curls and cable cross-overs) are not part of this routine. Fact is, no one short of the bionic man would have enough gas to bother with anything beyond the recommended sets.
"The crux": You must do 30 reps per set! Yes.. you read that correctly. It's an insane amount of reps and will absolutely trash you for the first few weeks. You'll definitely need a training partner. Otherwise, once you get to around 20 reps, you'll quit. It's also important to load the weights so you can do 30 reps but no more. Expect to fail miserably and have to stop for short breathers at first. After a few weeks you should manage to pump off 30 reps, if just barely. After that, increase the poundage ASAP.
More important that weight is form, this must be correct. This is very hard after 20 reps. your training partner should watch closely and correct you form when it gets loose.
A couple important things: The initial weeks of this first phase are devastating. I slogged through this routine after paddling for 1.5 hours in the morning and spent much of the first 2 weeks taking naps and bluffing my way through work. You must get adequate rest and eat ample amounts of complex carbs -spuds and brown rice in particular- to fuel the effort. Also eat enough protein. You certainly don't need the 150 grams body builders consume to create those freaky builds; but you'll probably need somewhere around 40 grams to avoid lassitude and zero drive. About 3 weeks into the first phase I got dead lazy and couldn't figure out why. A blood test determined I had mild sports anemia, easily rectified by eating a can of tuna or several pieces of chicken daily. I'm not sure what a vegetarian would have to do -soybeans, frijoles, whatever. Skip the protein, you'll go down HARD.
Don't get discouraged by the fact that initially you'll probably have to use baby weights to accomplish 30 reps. (You know, those funky little chrome dumbbells with 15 lbs. stamped on the end. If you're in an honest to god iron gym, you might have to blow the dust off of em') the difference between 20 and 30 reps is the difference between 5.8 and 5.12 (providing you maintain perfect form). If you are in reasonable overall shape, getting adequate rest and nutrition, you will adjust in a matter of weeks.
The remarkable burn you'll feel at around 20 reps is nothing more than lactic acid build-up. The best way to limit this is to make sure you continue breathing as you pump out the reps - particularly important after 20. You will never get totally used to it, but you can get to where working through the burn is at least possible. And remember..., stretch between sets.
After you can finish the workout without stopping mid-set to rest, continue the 30 rep routine for 1 month. It may well be the longest month of your life (It was for me), though there's some insane satisfaction in simply surviving such a grueling program. It's no fun, but one doesn't embark on this purely for fun!
Phase II
This involves exactly the same routine, 2 days on 1 off, 2 on, 2 off. Now reduce the reps to 14. You'll savor going to the gym because you don't have to crank off 30 reps on every exercise. Adjust you poundage so that when you hit 15 reps on a given exercise, you have nothing left -absolutely nothing! You will not be able to double the poundage, but should be able to increase it considerably, perhaps by 30%. Remarkably, you can continue adding weight and cutting down rests between sets, which signals that you are coming into you own. Once you've dialed into it, continue with the 15-rep cycle for 3 weeks.
Phase III
Same routine, but cut reps down to 5-6 and go for the max. weight you can possibly heft on every last set. Don't worry about how long you rest between; just go after the big-time iron. Do this for 3 weeks, adding more weight every session. This is the least tortuous phase in terms of pain, but requires the most concentrated effort. Always remember to maintain your form... perfect form!
Phase IV
Still pump 3 sets of every exercise but now do 30, 15 and 5 reps for each. This is a tapering or "peaking" phase and after 2 weeks, you cut down to every other day and finally 2 days on and 3 days off. At the end, both your strength and endurance have increased dramatically and you're ready to third-class the Salathe'!
Summary
Phase 1 is a conditioning cycle which increases you vascularity and endurance, tones, and kicks your ass something terrible. Phase 2 maintains endurance and builds strength commensurate to how much weight you stack on. Phase 3 goes after "raw-power", which is easily summoned after the tremendous conditioning you have received from the previous 2 cycles. The last phase blends everything together.
I supplemented the weight bit with heavy aerobic conditioning during the off days (bicycling and jump rope), though I was getting a wicked aerobic pump from a 6 day/week paddling routine. At the end of the whole cycle, my strength increased about 15%, my endurance about 30%, my body fat decreased 5%, my resting heart rate dropped to 50 bpm and I stayed exactly the same weight. The routine is a polecat to perform, but the results are amazing. During that first phase I wanted to quit many times. I just couldn't believe how hard it was!
One my "off" days I would usually do some leg presses and extensions, plus a little calf work after jumping rope. At the end of my "on" days I would crank some sit-ups and hyperextensions for 15 min. or so, long enough to cool down a little. If you need greater lower body strength, not obtainable via running or jump-rope work, you wont "enjoy" the off days and will instead spend them doing squats or whatever. If you do choose this route, bear in mind you are tackling a workload greater than that of most professional athletes. But, however you shake it, the important thing is the cycle of 30, 15, and 5 reps, followed by the peaking phase.
I personally don't go for supplements and amino acids and such, feeling the bulk of them end up in the toilet or shrubs. Good balanced vitals, a basic multi-vitamin, plus a little extra C seems to do the trick. I also tried to drink a couple of light beers an evening for no apparent reason at all!
The "WFH" is ideally suited for a climber as an off-season routine and will insure some big-league artillery once the clouds part and it's time to jump back on the crags.....Go after It!!!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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JB asking for advice on climbing training is like:
Oscar Peterson asking for some tips on praciticing his scales.
Bode Miller asking for some help on how to run gates.
It's like... (add your own)
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:32am PT
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I remember reading the "Workout From Hell" years ago and getting a little queasy just thinking about it. Same feeling as I just reread it.
Prod.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:45am PT
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I did parts of the workout from hell a few years ago. Made me STRONG. but, I'm still a chicken sh#t, so it didn't make me a strong climber.
I concentrated on pushing weight. I figured climbing is a lot of pulling, i wanted to balance things out with pushing. I was lifting 2 days a week, climbing 3-4 (2 in gym, 1 or 2 outside).
WOFH works.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jan 10, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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At one time in my life I hired a trainer. His first question; What are your goals?
I need to be able to do 50 pull ups, I replied.
He laughed and asked me how much I weigh and how tall I was.
210 was my reply. 6ft 1"
Men your size will never be able to do 50 pull ups. That is for the smaller people. Your a climber, we'll work on your opposing muscles and core strength.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Jan 10, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Lots and lots and lots and lots of streching. Aging sucks.
And power yoga. 60 minutes of power yoga and I'm sweating buckets, I'm feeling sinewy and the chicks in the class are thinking I'm one good looking crank.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 10, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Doing 50 or 100 reps of anything, whether its pullups or weights, is not power training. More like power endurance (100 is probably straight endurance).
To train for pure power, you want to be more in the 5 rep and under range.
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dlew308
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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Interesting work out. Day 2 workout would really violate the Law about waiting 48 hours to blast muscles. Doing chest exercises hits the triceps and shoulders while doing the back hits biceps. How do you prevent over training the smaller muscles?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 10, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Almost everyone has gone to much more sport-specific stuff than what we used to do. Campus board is about the only '80s exercise that remains hip. The system wall has become pretty popular in Germany and Austria, and I suppose it is in many ways a variation on the old Skinner box that Todd used to use. Some of the Germans still do some targeted weight lifting, but they're clearly in the minority.
When I'm healthy, I still do a bit of still rings, but only in really tiny doses because I've just had too many injuries. Aside from core strength and maybe front levers, there probably isn't much carryover to the rock, but it's a lot more fun than a hangboard.
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Falling
Trad climber
Splat
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
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Climb
For general power: Choose problems that forces me to throw, make deadpoints, lunges, dynos, super high tension moves, etc.
Depending on the day I'll make a circuit focusing only on problems requiring any of the above movements.
For pure max Power: get on the hardest thing (for me). Same deal as before, choose problems that forces me do powerful moves, only this time I choose problems where I can barely / can't pull the first move. Work the problem / problems to death, spread out over time period of days, weeks, or months. I never work the problems to muscle failure, I stop when the "pop" isn't there anymore, then I move on to a circuit or whatever.
I always stretch after each session and on off days
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Raydog, I gotta ask... how tall are you? You want sub 130 and your a man? Damn Skeletor! The chicks must turn green when they see you.
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Raydog's about 6'3" as best I recall.
Used to drive a Mini with the driver's seat pulled out.
Had to have a sunroof.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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just listen to the spirit of climbing and it will lead you to your personal strength training.
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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I agree with James regarding training max finger strength with a hangboard. And a pulley system works best, but you can also use a scale under your feet and maintain constant weight (like the dude in the youtube video that I link at the end of this post)
Anyway...
Funny watching Dave Macleod in E11 (and "Committed"), one of the best all-arounders in the world, train by cranking one arms on a beefed up door jam (and bouldering). No gym, no hangboard, no campus board. But 5.14 climbing 35 feet above gear. Inspiring.
However, the Euro's system training seems to be pretty friggin' effective.
Check out Neil Gresham's writings.
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=203
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=205
That link is to one of his training guides that discusses system training (the other is "Advanced Bouldering"). Scroll down and look on the left side of the page - he also has articles discussing other power training methods (he seems to advocate 2/3 hard bouldering and 1/3 fingerboard/bachar ladder etc).
They're older, but back when I was fishing around the net and reading training books, I found these pretty informative.
I ripped some stuff from a Mike Anderson post on rc.com 4 or 5 years ago (who got much of his training from Goddard's Performance Rock Climbing). He outlines his training program here. I figured he did a pretty damn good job of going from average climber to bad ass with methodical training, which is what I'd hoped to do too...
Anyway, he's huge on periodization and ARCing...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html
And though I've never really tried it (aside from a hangboard workout or two), here are links to Eric Horst's training thoughts.
http://www.trainingforclimbing.com/new/articles.shtml
And, finally, here's a video of system training. Pretty serious, pretty strong. Specificity. I think this was posted on some climbing site a year or two ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgyAN2W2Le4
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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My abs workout:
300 stomach crunches
3 sets of pullups, 20-25 reps
run 5 miles
drink a 6-pack
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Ha ha! Ray is 'kinda short'. I'm allowed to say that though because I'm even shorter. At 130 I am feeling kinda fat. I would love to get to 120 again but I am probably stronger and healthier at 125. Currently I sit at 133 and feeling like a tub-o-lard.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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-lots of weighted dips & pullup's.
-swim 2 miles a week
-run stairs 1x a week
-boulder 1x a week
-bike, spin, or xc ski 2x a week
-bag a peak on the weekend
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Broken -
Interesting stuff about "system/matrix" training. I used to have a matrix style symmetrical wall in Foresta, Yosemite. Only thing was plastic holds weren't being made yet so I made all my holds out of wood (first knuckle, second knuckle, pockets, side pulls, underclings). I thought it was a good endurance style workout and also good for training both sides of the body - it seemed to even things out because we all tend to favor certain moves on certain sides of the body. Not that good for gaining pure power however.
That German video shows a little power training but it's pretty non effective stuff for the most part. The unweighted one arm finger hangs are like James' "pooter" board thing - using a pulley system with harness to take off a little weight for developing pure finger strength on a hangboard.
I do like what they are doing at Crossfit and adapting that approach to make it more climbing specific.
It's good to hear all these different approaches - not much has changed really.
Gymnasts are still way more powerful than most top climbers it seems (except for finger strength)...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jan 10, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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Hey John
More specifically, what kinda power you looking at? Haven't seen any posts yet on plyometrics, or at least I missed it, but this is a very effective type of training that can develop power, explosive power. Anyway, hope the training goes well and you get plenty o' power.
Peace
ps I'll be bring the baseballs!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 10, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Not many people besides James and Broken really answered the question. We got alot of excuse making (like: I don't really need power, I need to be more flexible) and other bs about endurance ab/core work etc. The question was about power training.
Recently I've been looking into systematic training used by the big guns. McCleod was already mentioned. Another guy who is way into training and very generous sharing his methods is Mike Anderson, who claims to be not naturally gifted but training his way to freeing big walls. Of course he has a track record of freeing walls and a training record that shows his progression. His twin brother (who he did FreeRider with) follows a very similar method. It's a typical periodization scheme with endurance/strength/power/power endurance/rest phases that most athletes who've trained seriously will recognize
The condensed version of what these guys use for power:
For hypertrophy, about 4-6 weeks of short duration weighted dead hangs on different grips. McCleod uses a simple 1st joint campus rung, Anderson uses a hangboard. Typical advanced workout would be:
3 sets on each of 6 grip positions (say 1st joint edge, sloper, wide pinch, narrow pinch, deep ring pinky pocket, shallow index middle pocket). 10sec on/5 sec off (or 7on/3off)= 1 rep, 5 reps=1 set, rest 2 minutes between each set. Add enough weight for each grip so you can just barely fail on the last rep of each set.
You should not feel pumped. Failure from pump should be the goal in PE, not hypertrophy/max recruitment.
Immediately following the hypertrophy phase, a maximum recruitment phase of 2-3 weeks. This involves more or less what James describes on the campus board...campusing to rungs you can barely hang. This requires the muscles to fire in a short time period (power by definition IS work/time) for you to be able to hang on. It also requires your back/lats etc to fire quickly to give you enough momentum to reach the next rung. Rest a long time between sets (1 set = 1 trip up or down the board), perhaps 5-10 minutes, and stop when you lose the "snap". This probably means 4-6 sets.
Finger/forearm strength seems to be the limiting factor for almost everyone, except slab monsters like the Gnome. Look at when Sharma/Graham/(insert latest wunderkid) were first starting. They had horrible footwork, technique, and tactics. But they had some of the highest grip strength to weight ratios ever measured and sent the hardest stuff imaginable.
Pullups tend to be perpetually in vogue, but look at the elites again. McCleod could only do 24 the last time he checked (in the last couple months) and he climbs 5.14 trad. Will Gadd, on the other hand, used to be able to do a stack of them, winning pullup contests among elite climbers in europe, but getting burned off by the same guys at the crags (granted this is probably a movement example, rather than finger strength).
Seems part of the problem is that people expect to feel PUMPED and worn out after/during a good workout. In the strength/power phase that's not really how you should feel.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz - Anderson's finger training is pretty similar to what I used to do. I would always go for max recruitment in the beginning of the workout (after appropriate warmup) and then when the fast twitch fibers were tired, I would slowly start to apply more stress to the slow twitch fibers.
According to much literature, an event which causes failure in about two minutes is about 50% fast, 50% slow twitch. Like a hold that causes failure at the two minute point of a dead hang. Or think 800 meters in track - not quite a sprint, not quite a distance event. An event which causes failure in five or ten seconds is pretty much 100% fast twitch.
In my case, I would do a hangboard workout something like:
6 x 5 sec.
6 x 10 sec.
3 x 20 sec.
2 x 30 sec
1 x 60 sec.
1 x 120 sec.
All with appropriate weight to cause failure for each time interval and with one or two minutes of rest between attempts (quite time consuming to complete 6.5 minutes of hang time). I would usually use flat crimps because that was the type of hold I was training to use but sometimes would do pockets and slopers if I wanted to get better on those.
Wolfgang Gullich used to do pretty much the same system. I wish his book on training was available in English as it appeared to be quite well written (he had a degree in kinesiology) - does anybody know if this ever got translated? Dave Altman and Tony Yaniro were two others people that knew all this stuff. Most climbers didn't study training back then. Gill was another one who I'm sure had this knowledge.
All this power training knowledge is pretty well understood as the Russians figured this stuff out in the sixties and little has changed. I'm more curious about any new techniques that top climbers are using.
Gomez makes a good point about plyometrics (and negatives or eccentrics). A lot of kinesiologists think this is the real stimulus that causes the growth of the fast twitch fibers. It's not the pulling up but the letting down that stimulates the fibers into a growth response.
Fun stuff to think about... jb
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 11, 2008 - 10:57am PT
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I took my first shot a periodization a few years ago. I followed a hypertrophy and max recruitment phase almost identical to what elcapinyoazz outlines:
6 grip positions 5-10 seconds on and 5-10 seconds off x 5 = one set
2-5 minutes rest between sets. Apx 5 total sets.
I used a pulley system to take weight off and a weight belt to add weight. And I did lock-off and front lever training quite a bit during this phase as well.
4-6 weeks of that and then a combination of campus board and hard, dynamic boulder problems in the gym for 2-3 weeks.
(Unfortunately, I finished my first cycle right before I broke both my legs, so I never got to figure out how much stronger I'd become. Damn.)
Anyway, I've never seen someone do a hangboard workout where they hang on a hold for 60 (or 120!) seconds. Interesting, JB.
Whenever I finally kick my elbow tendonitis, I'm gonna get back on the hangboard train (could always use some more power...)...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 11, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Gullich's Sportklettern heute was never translated and is now out of print. Udo Neumann's Lizenz zum Klettern is almost directly descended from that book, however, and has more recent work in it. The older book he did with Dale Goddard, Performance Rock Climbing, was heavily based on Wolfie's book, although the sections it left out were probably the most relevant for this thread. Neumann's site is really good:
http://www.udini.de
I have watched folks in Austria use a system wall for "power" training and strength training as well as "power-endurance." (These labels all seem pretty squishy.) The ones I've seen allow the user to target weakness-- i.e., long reaches off slopers or monos or whatever --in both static and dynamic ways. The standard "train my lock-offs for the next sport comp" sequence is not the only application.
Things that have pretty clearly changed since the 1960s:
1. Most folks now seem to be recommending more sport specific training, i.e., only working to isolate particular muscle groups at occasional times in the training cycle and only then if there is a clear need to target an unusual weakness. We, on the other hand, learned that the best way to train was to try to isolate individual muscles.
2. Volumes tend to be higher than they used to be, and loads lighter. Or rather, fewer folks really advocate training to failure at regular intervals. (There are exceptions, but that seems to be the trend.)
3. Movement analysis is much more sophisticated, especially for climbing. The bibliography in the Self-Coached Climber is already a bit out of date, but you can follow that literature and it's really a dramatic change from what we used to draw upon. When I began coaching gymnastics, around 1981 or so, there was only one text that actually had a serious kinesiological approach to the sport.
4. We have way more climbing specific injuries now, especially of fingers. Pulley injuries have now replaced medial epicondylitis (which probably was exacerbated by our old habit of doing two-arm finger tip pull-ups on a single plane) as the injury of choice. Austria has been the most proactive in developing a really advanced sports medicine, pt, and training agenda for elite climbing, and the literature is getting a lot better. The latest worry-- a generation of overly-tight shoes is producing bunions in middle-aged climbers! Some of that lit is available in English in Hochholzer and Schoeffl's One Move Too Many.
5. Despite all the changes and new knowledge, we see elite level results from wildly different approaches to training. Sharma seems to do nothing but smoke dope and climb whatever he wants whenever he wants to climb it.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2008 - 11:38am PT
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Broken - sounds quite a bit similar to what some of us did back in the day.
My theory was that while doing the 5 sec. hangs I would use either a comfy first knuckle flat edge or a 3/4 first knuckle edge (so as not to stress out the joint too much) and use a lot of weight (typically 125 - 150 lbs. at 185 lbs. personal bodyweight). I would have to rest at least a minute, sometimes two, to be able to do another rep of 5 sec. I really wanted maximum white fiber recruitment during this part of the workout so resting between reps was crucial.
As the hang time increased to 10, 20, or 30 seconds and more, I wouldn't need as much rest between sets. The two minute hang was with no additional weight.
Before I got all scientific with the hang routine, me and Jerry Moffatt would do "hang-offs" where both of us would hang on identical edges at the same time and see who would fall off first. Those were quite fun - we'd both carry on a conversation trying to convince each other how unpumped we were while trying to pysche each other out into giving up. Sometimes we would each hit the three minute mark on a first knuckle flat edge. We tried using smaller edges but found that we were getting too much joint pain.
That's when we started adding weights and doing one arm hangs (first knuckle edge). By the way, Moffatt could easily do a one minute one arm hang on a flat first knuckle edge while I could only do about fifteen seconds. At the same time I could usually outlast him (not by much) on a two arm fingertip hang (power vs. endurance).
Note: Hypertrophy is really just an increase in cell size of a tissue or organ and is a normal byproduct of training muscle cells - not something to strive after in the world of power training. If you're into body building it may be a big objective but if you're a power lifter increased muscle hypertrophy doesn't really translate into increased power.
Edit: kik - wow, good info. I tend to agree with most of what you noted. Controlling the volume of power training is very important and also quite difficult. In my time I found Garhammer's book, "Strength Training" to be especially valuable. He has some very helpful formulae about volume control in there.
http://www.csulb.edu/~atlastwl/SI_Book_Chp5.pdf
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 11, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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A little off topic and probably not all that climbing applicable...
But I'm curious what "hand-strength" tricks you guys could/can pull (i.e. pull-ups on the bottom of a 2x4 etc).
I was never strong enough to do anything of note, though I did fool around a bit with Iron Mind products and always trained pinch grip in the weight room (with a pair of 25lb or 35lb plates - I was never able to pinch 2 45lb plates together, which is apparently a "standard" of sorts in the grip-strength world).
Here's the Iron Mind site with some of their grip strength literature (card tearing, nail bending, pinching, etc).
http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/ironmind/resources/griptrain1.html
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leo77
climber
Davis California; Sardinia
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Jan 11, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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I found a source of useful suggestions, training programs and exercises
http://www.jollypower.com
there is the English version too, although it's not updated as the
Italian one.
By the way, I think the best way for increasing the power is to climb outdoor, at least for climbers under the 5.11b. A lot of time it is just a matter of technique or a mental problems...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Wow
That Dreamcatcher is unreal.
This is what sport climbing is all about.
One hard bouldering move after another made into a climb.
Kauk accurately described it to me years ago in the 70's how in the future guys would be doing this kind of stuff.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jan 11, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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You said it Werner! That dyno that Chris freezes just after he catches the hold is incredible.
Helps if you've got power (and soul) to spare.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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JB, thanks for the tip on Wolfgang's work. If I can find a translation, I'll let you know.
Check out this search find for 'Gullich training.' Click on the first link option below his pullup pic. You'll see a bunch of awesome climbing video clips to choose from.
http://lodevebloc.blogspot.com/2007/03/wolfgang-gllich-training-theory.html
Wolfgang was such a sweetheart. And what a climber.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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Wolfie bump.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 12, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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I am surprised not to see any mention of the best, most enjoyable and most obvious form of power training for climbing.. bouldering.
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 13, 2008 - 09:28am PT
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Bachar,
Man, you should write a book. Maybe with stories and training info.
----------------------------------
I like this thread. A lot of people still have the mentality, "want to climb harder? climb more". It doesn't make sense to me anymore. I need to incorporate some of these workouts. Especially the finger strength stuff.
I do this workout about 2-3x a week. It's more injury prevention, stuff that Ron helped me set up. I've added some stuff to.
-Lat pulldowns 3x 10-12. I do pullups if I don't have a machine
-chin ups 3x 10-12
-bench 3x 12 w/20lb dumbells(I need to buy more weights)
-chest flys 3x10@20#
-dips 3x10
I used to do pushups, but they make my shoulder pop.
-shrugs 30 straight @ 20#'s
-Reverse wrist curls: I used to 20's for that, but use 10lbs or so 3x10
-Sometimes I do regular wrist curls, but I'm not to sure about them. Do they promote epicondytis?
-internal and external shoulder stuff with a theraband
-holding a really light weight and moving at a 45 degree angle up and down away from the body. Don't know what it's called.
Pronationation and sublimation(Sp?) with a hammer. I use to use a heavy hammer a 4# hammer, but I torque my wrist with it. SO now I use a lighter one.
I do ab stuff once a week and I f*cking hate it. I read abesome abs by Paul Check, but haven't incorporated much of his stuff. I do a workout by glenn Danberry from bodybuidling.com
When I make it to a climbing gym, which is pretty rare. I like to do campus lock off moves on a slightly overhanging big holds...
I'm not sure how much power all the stuff I do promotes. Probably not much..
Rock on!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jan 13, 2008 - 10:52am PT
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Quartz, you mentioned Paul Check....check out the abs and core strengthening he preaches. I've been doing a version of his core workout and I'm telling you it works! Hasn't totally got rid of my LBP(low back pain) but it has SIGNIFICANTLY helped. The key to the core schit is the transverse abdominus, as we get older, fatter and less active this muscle atrophies and shuts down, setting up a chain reaction of BAD stuff for the low back. The C.H.E.C.K. institute has some good stuff you can purchase about this subject.
Keep workin' at it bro, shoot me an email if you want more info.
Peace
ps, the word and spelling in yer wrist w/o is...supination, that opposite of pronation.
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 13, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Ron,
I'll give it a try! What I read in awesome abs made good sense, the format of the book was so damn cheesy I couldn't take it. All those dudes running around banana hammocks!lol
Thanks again for the help.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 23, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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Check out this vid of Sonnie Trotter training. It's really back to the '80s. It leaves out much of the relevant info-- frequency, rest intervals, etc., but looks a lot like the stuff Gullich used to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h07kaQKtgDY
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Jan 23, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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Anusara Yoga.
My core strength has gone through the roof. Not only that, all the soreness and stress and strain related to climbing has left my body. I have hardly climbed recently and jumping on 5.12 off the couch is surprisingly easy.
I'm not talking forward bend and downward dog yoga. That stuff just gets you warmed up for stuff like:
The Destroyer:
and
and
and
I almost have the first one down and can do the rest of them fairly easily. The arm balances bring/require ridiculous core strength which translates easily to the rock.
http://www.rossrayburn.com - this guy is doing a workshop this weekend here locally. He's an arm balance master. more core strength to come....
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minexploration
Social climber
Whitefish Montana
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Jan 24, 2008 - 09:11am PT
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In reading this thread it seems that climbers over the years have developed many accepted strength training methods for the traditional climbing muscles.
This left me thinking about what is there left to try and develop to gain more power ect in climbing. The only thing that I could think of that was not truly discussed here was the legs and lower back. I know some people say that the legs are just dead weight or if you train them you will bulk up and add more weight. There are many sports that a persons weight is just as detrimental to as climbing. Yet, the competitors benefit greatly from training different muscle groups. Many people post on the boards "How do I get better at climbing" "How do I get stronger from climbing" and the same stuff is said over and over. The answer most given is climb more, but if you are at the highest levels and you are at a plateau and not seeing increases then something in the training needs to change.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have reached the point in your training that you can not really improve things like finger strength. Look at other areas of your body that (in the case of this thread "Power Training") could improve your power.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Jan 24, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Hey, RE. the comment about Sharma not "training", smoking pot etc...
We should really be looking at what guys like this are doing that makes them so strong. Chris has arguably pulled off some of the hardest moves anyone ever has.
Genetics will only take you so far.
What they are doing is bouldering, really hard bouldering. It accomplishes all the things that have been talked about here. Especially, when a systematic approach is applied.
Check out the video of Sharma sending that deep water solo project of his...THE MOST AMAZING DYNO I HAVE EVER SEEN, IN MY LIFE!!!
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1119640408/bclid1124878386/bctid1364230333
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jan 24, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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"Genetics will only take you so far." --Riotch
Well, Chris doesn't train. Ever. And genetics has been proven to be of huge advantage in his case. One of the things you'll hear about Chris, from other world class climbers is that they are amazed at how long he can remain on the rock. Tests have recently proven that Chris is, actually, a genetic freak of sorts. He simply doesn't build lactic acid the way we do, with he end result being that he doesn't really get pumped. Or, if he does, it takes considerably longer.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 24, 2008 - 12:55pm PT
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I think it would be a serious mistake to look to naturally, genetically gifted superstar climbers for training ideas.
As Randy said, Chris don't train. He's commonly quoted as saying his "training" takes place on the route itself. I mean the kid was pulling the hardest stuff in the world at 16, well before he went into his years of exclusively bouldering.
Similarly, Dave Graham. As a 17-18yr old, with pretty bad technique and only a couple of winters climbing on plastic, sending the hardest stuff out there. At the time he said something like "we don't really train, we just go in the gym and climb and boulder and have fun". But the kid had genetically freakish grip-strength to weight ratio to begin with. They were climbing 5.13 in the first year.
It would be much more instructive to look at the guys and gals who were more "normal" to begin with and trained their way to hard stuff. That's one reason I cited the Mike and Mark Anderson stuff.
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Jan 24, 2008 - 12:55pm PT
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Nefarius-
What tests are you talking about? I vaguely remember hearing something about some tests on grip strength/weight ratio performed on top climbers recently. I haven't heard anything about the lactic acid.
And while I think Sharma can hang around for quite awhile, I've never noticed that he was particularly better at that than someone like Yuji.
My impression of Sharma was always: power. I was at Rumney the day he almost flashed The Fly (V13/14d), and it was stunning. I'd watched Tony Lamiche climb the route in less than a week just prior to Sharma, which I thought was pretty impressive. My partner and I speculated whether Sharma could do it faster, since he supposedly wasn't "that strong" on crimps. The first few moves are hideous. Even after work, they were desperate for Lamiche.
Sharma did those moves in what seemed like total control on his first try! He fell off up high on his flash attempt, then sent within his next 2-3 tries.
It is shocking how strong he is.
Watch Lamiche on The Fly here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thw8DQexMHw
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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I think they talk about the tests in "King Lines" somewhere, I could be wrong about that. I'll give it a peak again tonight and do some research to see if I can find something about it. I've also heard other people talking about the same thing though, so it's not something i heard wrong, etc.
They definitely talk about his ability to hang out on climbs all day, pretty much. Klem talks about his amazement at that. Plenty of people have talked about and have noticed that in the past too. Seeing Chris climb, in person, is a rather amazing thing.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 24, 2008 - 04:52pm PT
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JB,
Arriving a little late in this thread , but …
It's probably an understatement to say that you seem to look at things somewhat academically. This is the way I tend to look at it, since I’m most interested in the sport science behind athletic training. I’ve collected a few articles that I’ve found interesting over the last couple of years that I could e-mail to you. Then if you found any of it interesting, you could share it with the forum. I wouldn’t know where to start, if I started posting it all here.
BTW, I’m not a big fan of Horst’s book (no offense to anyone) … I felt like I learned more about training itself from the small chapter on training in your book “Free Climbing with John Bachar”. I’m a big fan of Fred Hatfield (and others) who has a Ph.d. in exercise science along with practical athletic experience as an athlete and a trainer.
Regarding limit strength … not sure how you used to train, but it may have been somewhat linear in relation to weight increases. Some of the not so new ideas in the powerlifting world involve wave type programs where the weight and/or volume are not linear from workout to workout which allows enough stress to make gains while avoiding overtraining. Here is an example of a 5x5 program calculator … http://www.joeskopec.com/five.html . You may have used similar set-ups in the past. You’ll notice the weight differentiation (up/down) from week to week. One ends up blowing through their max in a couple of months. There is a powerlifter in Florida who hits a new max every month (maybe an example of an extreme form of this) and does it naturally (steroid free) without injury.
Workouts like Crossfit and such seems to focus mostly on pushing the Anaerobic threshold back (being able to use maximum strength over and over ad infinitum) from what I understand is more of an energy system adaptation. This seems to fit with most climbing outside of bouldering. But I don’t know a whole lot about Crossfit.
Anyway … some RANDOM thoughts for now … .
Enjoy!
burp
(edited: grammer/spelling)
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Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
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Jan 25, 2008 - 07:34am PT
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What about squats, snatches, cleans and deadlifts?
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 25, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Mr. T,
Why would those help with climbing power?
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jan 25, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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61 year old, Sandbag Soo says that Viagra is the answer!
Maybe being a 7th degree blackbelt helps a little.
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