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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 22, 2004 - 01:47am PT
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OK a reprint for some of you, but perhaps news to others. This info in response to the James Lucas thread and perhaps too morbid for some. There is data related to falls in terms of various fractures and fatalities. This extracted from a plot in Climbing magazine, the data are taken from suicide attempts in NYC from buildings thus the heights are well known.
height:................10'...20'...30'...40'...50'...60'...70'...80'...90'..100'..110'
% probability of:
limb fracture:......41 ...63 ...70 ...76 ...80 ...82 ...85 ...88 ...90 ..93 ...94
spine fracture:......5 ...10 ...13 ...16 ...20 ...23 ...27 ...29 ...31 ..33 ...35
death:..................2 ....7 ...12 ...21 ...35 ...49 ...62 ...74 ...83 ...92 ...95
The maximum acceleration the human body can withstand is around 20 g's, a limit that is set by the mechanical strength of the Aorta. Making various assumptions it can be shown that a fall from 60' corresponds to the limiting acceleration by stopping. The table shows that this is the 50% fatality point, which is in agreement with the estimate.
There are variations in the acceleration of the body which cause fatality below this height and survival above this height. There are many dramatic stories of surviving falls from height, don't count on it, people who do survive are bucking the odds big time.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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I just found this post.
I'm so excited to hear that I escaped a 50% chance of death with all my charm and good looks.
Sick!
Excuse me, I have to go do add some probablities. I fell twice so 60' plus 30' with each probability being.....
Thanks for the laugh Ed. HA!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:38am PT
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Like the lifer prisoner who spends his whole life in jail and has forgotten his true freedom when turned loose to the outside world and free, he can not quite function anymore. Quickly he finds his way back to the jail he falsely believes is his home and his security. Thus upon his return he is happy in his delusion.
That means you had more jail time James, just like the rest of us.
Welcome back ……..
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:40am PT
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Hey M, if you see this - Look at the stats between 30 and 40 feet...
Wow, eh? I think I'm gonna buy me a beer.
And who in NYC tries to commit suicide from 10 feet up? I mean, maybe in Iowa where there aren't as many tall buildings, but c'mon.
-Kate.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2005 - 01:00am PT
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Dude, it's probablility... you roll the dice and you win, sometimes... but you roll the dice enough times and Lady Luck will have her's.
Think Columbia, think Challenger... you don't get luckier with each successful roll... you have the same luck.
So you can fall and live..... the tables tell you that... but you can fall and die too.
Like my teachers taught me 35 years ago, if you go soloing, don't fall.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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The most important lesson I've learned from climbing is a Michael Schaffer pearl.
"Just don't let go."
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:07am PT
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James are you a dice rolling climber?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:09am PT
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And especially, don't let go on a busy weekend with a sh#t-load of people watching...
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:12am PT
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Werner,
Not anymore. Sorry to disappoint. I've had to trade occupations.
1st A dice rolling climber.
2nd A nice soloing mimer
3rd A rice doling rhymer.
Got to get that kharma back somehow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2005 - 01:15am PT
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Kate, you ever live in NYC? a very broad cross section of humanity in every respect.
People who are attempting suicide are not known for their intellectual grasp of the implications of what they are doing... jumping out of your apartment on the first floor probably isn't all that unlikely... and not only that, the fatality rate is finite.
When I get back home (in Detroit now) I'll look up the reference....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:17am PT
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I saw someone take a 70-footer onto a concrete sidewalk a few months ago.
I would rather knott have to see anything like that again.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:05am PT
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Falling is perfectly safe. I don't believe those numbers.
Hitting, on the other hand, is deadly
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:27am PT
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Ed...yeah, I lived in NYC for 5 years. I know what you are talking about.
-Kate.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 10, 2005 - 07:08am PT
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Well, as for people committing suicid and their apptitude, and you might find this shocking, more than a few shoot themselves and fail to kill on the first shot.
So they try again.
The record around this town is 5 times before success.
About climbers falling and suicide jumpers jumping, I don't think the two would match up very well until after the height becomes great. The jumper is trying to die, while the climber is trying to live. People who practice falling can do things to avoid injury at least up to a certain height, while someone wanting to ensure death might well go head first.
In other words, for some climbers at least, (those who do not fall in a blind panic, rather they try to do all they can to make the best of a bad deal) randomness does not apply.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Sep 10, 2005 - 09:35am PT
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Aid falls are pretty random. The backdive I pulled off the Trip only turned out OK cuz there was nothing to hit.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 10:53am PT
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Falls often come as a complete surprise, and many falls do not afford the time or opportunity to fall carefully.
Even from a height of circa 2', a fall can come as a great surprise, bones can break (or worse), and the faller is not afforded the time to do anything but smack the ground and see what luck has in store for them.
Be careful out there.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 10:58am PT
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As far as suicide, determination may be the bigger force leading to "success". A friend of mine on the police force for over twenty years related this story to me recently.
The officers went to a hotel where a man had killed himself in a way none of the officers had ever seen, let alone heard of. The victim brought with him a circular saw, then commenced to cut across each thigh. Then a cut from the groin up to the chest. And finally, a cut across his throat. These cuts were to the bone - no hesitation cuts here.
This is the definition of determination. Just horrible.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2005 - 12:32pm PT
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Yep, Crimpi we’ve seen some odd behavior
We had a guy once jump off a 900 foot cliff for a suicide attempt. In his desperation for absolving his internal pain he was blinded by his judgment and failed to identify the steepest drop. He looked instead for the easiest and quickest accessible launch and jumped.
Oops! It was a long low angle slab of hundreds of feet. He came to a stop on a ledge. He took his shoes off and set them neatly together off to the side and jumped again.
This time successful …….
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 10, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
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Poor guy.
I feel soooo sad for those driven to do this. It cannot be an easy thing to do - unless one is totally and completely tormented. Anyone living with such utter pain is something that should make us all very sad.
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James
Gym climber
A Seaside Hippy Resort
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:17pm PT
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Crimpergirl,
You are so right! Furthermore climbing is a horrible abomination. To climb El Capitan one must be sinfully inspired. You must become Faust and make a pact with the devil. Lucifer will steel your dark heart with the ugly armor of determination.
AH!!!The eighth deadly sin!!!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 10, 2005 - 02:29pm PT
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A friend was discharged from an outpatient surgery.
He decided to wait for his ride outside.
Standing on the sidewalk, he passed out, hit his head, and slipped into the world of others.
You don't need a 10' fall to break bones (or worse).
And like Karl sez, it ain't the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop.
:- k
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 10, 2005 - 05:29pm PT
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Gimpygirl wrote:
"Falls often come as a complete surprise, and many falls do not afford the time or opportunity to fall carefully. "
HAHAHA, well, if you are not doing something silly like slack lining... or stepping backwards off a tow truck... In other words if your attention is focused and you have trained yourself to fall properly... Then you've usually got time.
Falling 25 to 30 feet takes over a second, that's a long time IF you have your mind right.
Short surprize falls are the worst in terms of reacting well though.
Let me guess that you have not ever taken a falling class or practiced falling correctly. Right or wrong?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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Sep 11, 2005 - 05:11pm PT
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Ok, if this isn't already morbid enough, if you had the time, how would you position yourself while falling to have the best chance of living. From 30 feet? From 200 feet?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 11, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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True. Not only have I never had a falling class, I've never had a climbing class. I did take a class in avian care - hence, I am Crimpergirl, CAS (Certified Avian Specialist).
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 11, 2005 - 05:50pm PT
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Fattrad - you took gymnastics? Yes? Rings (please please please)? Yes? Then for the love of all that is good, post some photos!!!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:09pm PT
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I'll happily look at photos of the shoulders/back/abs of a competitive swimmer too!
:)
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James
Gym climber
A Seaside Hippy Resort
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:12pm PT
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If I was to fall from a hundred feet with out a rope I would:
First carefully bend myself in half.
Second Strech my arms and grab my ankles.
Third Tuck my head between my legs
Now kiss my sweet ass goodbye.
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Eric Chisholm
Trad climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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From 30 ft, I think a ground fall would be best taken by having your feet hit first, but not trying to stay standing up. Just collaps as you hit. But it's guna hurt!
200 ft. I'd go head first. That way I would'nt be there gasping for breath with two collasped lungs, lost of broken bones and ruptured spleen gurgling blood as I died.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:21pm PT
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So Eric
From 30 ft, a few people that we’ve picked up from such a fall have had their knee’s jam into their lungs on impact and collapse their lungs.
Try the forward roll …… one shoulder turned in on impact and roll.
From 200 feet it’s up to lady luck …..
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Eric Chisholm
Trad climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:23pm PT
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Yeh, I will try to remember that as my life flashes before my eyes.
....maby we should go test drive the options?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:25pm PT
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Test drive the options? Lol!
Not me man, that's way to hard for me.
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James
Gym climber
A Seaside Hippy Resort
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:27pm PT
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Come on Werner,
I Dream of Cream.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Sep 11, 2005 - 06:36pm PT
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from "Survival Tips", "Unplanned Free-fall"; The Free-Fall Research Page:
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html
If your search discloses no trees or snow, the parachutist's "five-point landing" is useful to remember even in the absence of a parachute. Meet the ground with your feet together, and fall sideways in such a way that five parts of your body successively absorb the shock, equally and in this order: feet, calf, thigh, buttock, and shoulder. 120 divided by 5 = 24. Not bad! 24 mph is only a bit faster than the speed at which experienced parachutists land. There will be some bruising and breakage but no loss of consciousness to delay your press conference. Just be sure to apportion the 120-mph blow in equal fifths. Concentrate!
; )
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2005 - 08:54pm PT
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Forward roll is harder than sideways onto your one buttcheeck or the other by collapsing one leg sitting down and curling your head and shoulder up and away from the fall direction and rolling across your back, from one hip to the opposite shoulder. It's a lot easier to demonstrate.
Landing feet first even on a THICK (1 foot) crash pad from say 20 or more feet you can still knock yourself silly with your knees, so keep your knees open as you hit and then roll.
Mmake sure both feet hit at the same time, on the balls not the heels, and cushion with ankles, knees, etc.
Landing on your heels with legs straight is really really bad, don't do it ever, not even from a few inches.
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Voice of Reason
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Sep 11, 2005 - 09:28pm PT
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What if the one falling is really top heavy.......a boob first landing may lend some impact resistance. The five sequential points of impact could be choreographed to resemble an interpretive dance of the flight (or landing) of the puple monked whiffler tit.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Sep 11, 2005 - 10:15pm PT
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Voice of Reason recommends boob first descent.
I just wanted to add that added safety is gained by hitting on one's bigger boob (and one is always bigger).
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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Sep 11, 2005 - 10:46pm PT
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I always figured that if I was going to go in from way up, I would keep my legs slightly bent but crossed such that when my femurs go thru my pelvis they go out away from my body and maybe all the ripping and tearing would allow me to survive. I would be a legless little fart but I just might live to have jokes made in my honor. Of course, every time I fell off the rings in high school and colledge I landed flat on my back so the odds of me being in control on impact are slim.
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Gary Carpenter
climber
SF Bay Area
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Sep 11, 2005 - 10:53pm PT
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The military used to (maybe they still do)teach what they called the "parachute landing fall" (PLF). The procedure was to land with both feet together taking the initial impact on both legs simultaneously, then immeditely roll to one side allowing the impact to be transfered to the side of the leg, hip, and shoulder.
It seemed to break the impact pretty well, but then I had a chute.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Thank you for the chart, Dr. OW Ed
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