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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 4, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Like, how’s it goin’, eh?
There has been a lot of talk about Russian Aiders over the years, and something of a cloak of mystery enveloping the things because Trango no longer manufactures them, and they are difficult to come by.
Are Russian Aiders truly the Better Way? Or are they just Big Wall Theory? Will Kate’s new Russkies allow her to reach Steve Gerberding’s rivets, or will she go flying off the slab when she changes from aid to free climbing? Will Kate ever switch to free climbing again? Will Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab ever make it back home? Are Russian Aiders anything more than communist propaganda?
In this post, the Diabolical Dr. Piton will pontificate on the benefits and drawbacks of Russian Aiders, and attempt to debunk a few of the myths surrounding them. He will work hard to avoid writing in the third person and refrain from using bold text. [Oops, like sorry, eh?] It’s my hope that someday soon an intrepid entrepreneur or two will begin making the things, and we will see a Bolshevik Revolution taking place on the big walls as traditional aider use is phased out and the commies take over.
Russian Aiders in action on Wyoming Sheep Ranch - note duct-taped hook for pro!
Photo by Kate Robertson = Batgirl
CAVEAT: Dr. Piton does not purport to teach the Best Way or the Only Way, merely the Better Way, and the Better Way is whatever works best for you.
So grab yourself a coffee or a beer, depending on whether it is before or after Changeover Time, and have a read. What do yous guys and gals think of the things? Have you tried ‘em? Where did you get ‘em, and how do you like ‘em?
Most importantly, who will step up to the plate and start making Russian Aiders? I believe there is potentially a huge market for them – virtually everyone who aid climbs. How many aid ladders were sold last year do you suppose? Think about it….
Right, let’s talk about Russian Aiders. I look forward to all your feedback! I would especially like to see some good photos of Russian Aiders in action, including close-ups so people “get” what I’m talkin’ about.
Floyd Collins - a Kentucky native - checks out his new set of Russkies
With Russian Aiders, you will be able to climb faster than Floyd!
 BENEFIT: You can stand taller in the saddle more easily, especially on steep ground
Think of downhill skiing. Imagine that you are standing on the grass, or on a level area of snow, wearing your downhill ski boots connected to downhill skis by their bindings, which unlike cross-country ski bindings or telemark bindings are fixed in the heel. Your ski boot is rigid and goes high up above your ankle and rests against the back of your calf, completely encircling your leg. In fact, imagine a really tall and stiff ski boot that comes up to a couple inches below your knee.
First sit down on the back of your skis. Then lean back a bit so your ass rests right on the grass or snow, on top of the tails of your skis. Now from this sitting-down leaning-back position, stand up again without using your hands to press down on the ground. Stand up using only your legs and abdominal muscles, taking advantage of the leverage you get with the ski boots going right up to just below your knee, along with the bindings and the backs of the skis pressing against the ground. In other words, take advantage of the camming action between your knee and your foot to stand up. It's easy, isn't it? Anyone who downhill skis knows this.
Now, let's extend the example. Standing on grass this time so your skis don't slide on snow, point the tips of your skis uphill, and then sit down on the grass and the tails of your skis. Even though you are in an "overhanging" stance, you can still stand up without using your hands, only by using your legs.
If your legs were not clamped into the skis, it would be virtually impossible to stand up from this sitting-down leaning-back position, because you would have no leverage. Similarly if the ski boots were only ankle high like say running shoes, instead of knee high like these imaginary stiff downhill ski boots you're wearing, you wouldn't be able to stand up very easily, would you?
Now, if you were not leaning back, you wouldn't really need your downhill ski boots to help you stand up. You could stand straight up. The only benefit of the ski boots to standing up is because you are doing so from a backward leaning position. Get it?
This is the analogy to the leverage benefit you get from the stirrup assembly of Russian Aiders. Your point of attachment to your gear is not your daisy chain, nor is it the bottom of your foot which is standing in a regular aid ladder. Rather it is the hook which is held by the stirrup on the inside of your shin, just below your knee. The stirrup gives you the very same leverage benefit as I just described above with the ski boot. You get the benefit of the knee-foot camming action to help you stand.
Top-stepping from Russian Aiders - note gear on which Buddy is standing is approximately at his knees!
The photo above I scarfed from an old Trango advert, sent to me by John Raaf = raffie [Cheers, mate!] Unfortunately the photo does not show the Russian Aider cuffs Buddy is wearing, but you can see from the position of his body how high he is standing - and effectively top-stepping - above his piece of aid gear, which is the bolt on the climbing wall just a shade above his knees.
This "high standing" benefit is really only achieved when the rock is steep. If the rock is vertical, or slightly less than vertical, then you don't get a huge benefit from the Russians, because standing in aid ladders is easy. But when the rock starts to lean back towards you - which is the norm in aid climbing - Russian aiders really shine. This is because you can use the knee-foot camming action of the stirrups to generate leverage in your favour, and more easily stand on steep ground.
When you first try it on steep ground, you will be amazed! Sure, you still need to fine tune your top-stepping with your adjustable fifi and all, but it's incredibly easy to "stand tall in the saddle". Especially when combined with the 2:1 mechanical advantage you get with your adjustable daisy or adjustable fifi [precise mechanical advantage being 2:1 less the friction of the daisy through its buckle] you will be able to easily "pull yourself up" the steps of the Aid Tree, and then most importantly stand in comfort from a much higher stance than you could using regular aid ladders, because of the leverage you get in your legs from the knee-foot camming action of the stirrup.
Standing easily on steep ground on The Shortest Straw - you'll feel like you're climbing naked!
Not only will your stomach muscles thank you, but so will your kidneys, because you will no longer need to generate such huge downward forces on the waist belt of your seat harness with your adjustable fifi when top-stepping. You can “spread the weight out” more over your legs - and less over your waist - thanks to the Russkies.
So the primary benefit of Russian Aiders is your ability to stand around easily on steep ground while fiddle-farting with your next aid placement. Your stomach muscles will not ache as much, you will be less tired, aid climbing on steep ground becomes less strenuous [or not strenuous at all], and most importantly - you will have more fun when aid climbing, a LOT more fun!
TRICK: When you have just stepped into your Russians from down low, if you are using a Yates-style adjustable daisy which has a steel ring on the free end, you can put the hook from your free leg into the ring on the adjustable daisy, and stand up on the ring, pulling yourself up with a 2:1 mechanical advantage using your foot. You can only do it for about a step or two, but it's a very cool and virtually effortless way of standing.
The technical term for this type of upward movement is "Karl Baba-ing."
MYTH: You can stand taller in Russian Aiders than in regular aid ladders
Actually, you can't. In fact, the opposite it true - if you are highly skilled at top-stepping, or you are on low-angle ground, you can stand taller in regular aid ladders because you can get right up in your hero loops. There is no way to do this with Russian Aiders, as your top stepping ability is limited to the distance between your knee hook and the base of your foot.
Hook placed inside of Aid Tree ring - this looks to be a very bitchin' home-made stirrup assembly. Colourized photo by Richard Heinrich = spike
DRAWBACK: On less than steep ground, where you are doing extreme top-stepping [example: low-angle rivet ladder beneath Timbuktu Towers on Never Never Land = Aquarian Wall] you will have to clip a regular small sling into the rivet, and put your foot directly into the sling to do an extreme top-step without using your Russian Aider at all, in order to reach the next rivet without using a cheat stick. If you are climbing a lot of moves this way, regular aid ladders would probably be better.
MYTH: Standing in the top ring gives you the same reach as standing in the top step of your aid ladder
TRUTH: Standing in the top ring is more or less equivalent to standing in the second steps of your aiders, but is dead easy, even on steep ground. You can hang around in comfort for a long time, and aid climbing becomes much less strenuous.
TRICK: To extend your reach farther, you can put the hook on your shin directly into the piece, and not into the top ring of the Aid Tree clipped to the piece. Sometimes this will require you adding a carabiner to the piece, lowering your reach one carabiner length, but giving you the extra degree of freedom you need to put the hook directly into the gear. You will be amazed at how well this works when you are doing that most scary of aid move, top-stepping on hooks.
Close-up front view of the hooks, located on the shin just below the knees. The hooks have shifted position about 3" to the outside of my knees because they are not weighted - when you hook them into the Aid Tree rings and stand up, the hooks will rotate back into position on the inside of your knee
BENEFIT: So what you can do with the Russkies is stand the equivalent of one step higher than regular aiders, but with the same amount of effort. It is “usual” to work mostly from the third step of your aid ladders, because this is the position which gives you the greatest reach-comfort benefit. You only get into your second steps when you feel you have to, because it is much more strenuous. With Russkies, you will hop right up into your top ring most every time, quickly and easily, and you will hang out there in comfort, even on [formerly] strenuous steep ground. You will get used to seeing your adjustable fifi cord pointing downwards from you to the hook.
Not only that, but you have the ability to make each aid move one foot higher with little further effort. Think about it – how much will an extra foot of reach on every placement improve your wall experience? You will reach the summit faster, in fewer moves and with less effort.
Close-up Front View of Trango Hook
You will also be able to more comfortably and competently climb harder aid, because you will be able to position your body better in strenuous placements for a longer time, in order to suss the best placement. This is only a real benefit on harder aid – on easy C1 cracks like you find on the Nose or Salathe Wall, it doesn’t really help you much.
MYTH: With Russian Aiders, 5’4” Kate [Batgirl] will be able to clip Steve Gerberding’s rivets on Reticent Wall, which Steve [who is very tall] drilled from his top-steps.
TRUTH: No she won’t. Batgirl would have a better chance of clipping Steve’s rivets from the hero loops of her aid ladders, but is probably too short to have done that. Since Kate is shorter than me, she had to extend her reach with her nut tool to get up some sections of Gerberding’s rivet ladders, because that is the only way she physically could make the moves. How do I know? Because I’m 5’9” or a bit less, and I had to cheat my way up a few of Steve’s rivets on Reticent Wall. I probably girth hitched a couple of wired stoppers together, or maybe duct taped a rivet hanger on the top of my hammer. I try not to do that very often, but I had to do it on Reticent because I'm too short.
I wonder if I could make the reach now with Russkies? I wonder how badly I'd do trying to repeat one of Dave Turner's routes?!
TRICK: Try adjusting the length of your stirrup, to shorten the distance from your hook to your foot. The lower your hook, the less mechanical camming advantage you get, but the higher you can stand on each placement. Figure out which distance works best for you.
Side View of Trango Stirrups and Hook
Note that I am wearing no shoe, so consequently
the hook sits too high - with shoes it will sit lower
BENEFIT: You get a lot less clusterfriggage* with Russian Aiders than you do with regular aiders. There is simply less stuff to get in your way. Instead of having two, three or four full-length aid ladders flailing around all over the place, you have two or four Aid Trees – nothing more than a dangling piece of webbing with some rings on it. Everything is attached, and there is no risk of dropping an aider [or Aid Tree].
There is also a huge benefit when you have to untwist your system because you misclipped, and crossed something over something else the wrong way. Instead of having to pull your daisy plus one or two pairs of aiders through everything to straighten it out, you only have to pull your daisy plus Aid Tree, which is hugely less klunky. For the same reason, switching feet is also a lot easier, for instance when you are switching direction of climbing from moving leftwards and up to moving rightwards and up, and you want to move the lead rope from across your right hip to running across your left hip – you only have to step over a daisy and Aid Tree.
In addition, your arms get less tired when climbing, because lifting the weight of an Aid Tree or two is rather easier than lifting a much heavier pair of aiders each move. This is particularly important to wiener-armed part-time climber-weaklings like me, who only get on the rock during their holidays. This way you can avoid the nuisance of training altogether.
Undoubtedly, Russian Aiders decrease your Wank Factor* when climbing.
Russian Aiders in action on Lunar Eclipse - photo by Richard Heinrich = spike
DRAWBACK: Russian Aiders do not work as well on low-angle terrain – especially low-angle cracks – than regular aid ladders. This is because the damn rings on the Aid Trees keep getting jammed in the crack like an inverted chockstone pulled upwards! It can really drive you batty on certain pitches, if you have to keep downclimbing to free stuck rings. It is extremely difficult to prevent this from happening, and even more annoying to fix each time.
This situation is the one place you will find your Co-Efficient of Wank* increasing with Russian Aiders vs. regular aiders.
MYTH: Russian Aiders are not so good, because bitchin’ climbers like Ammon McNeely don’t use them, and wankers* like Dr. Piton do. Perhaps this is because so few people can get their hands on the things to actually give ‘em a try. Well, if you are as bitchin’ a climber as Ammon, you can climb any damn way you like. And as for that other aforementioned wanker – ”Buuuuuuuurp!”
DRAWBACK: Russian Aiders can be a pain when transitioning from aid climbing to free climbing. This is because you have a nylon strap underneath your instep, and more junk around your lower leg. It’s not like you can reach down and remove the things – you put them on in the morning, they stay on all day long, and then you take them off at night. If you switch from aid to free and are trying to friction up a slab, you will not like that slippery hunk of nylon between your rubber and the rock. If your “aid” climb requires a lot of transitioning back and forth from free to aid, you might want to consider using regular aiders.
BENEFIT: In alpine climbing, where Russian Aiders made their debut, proponents like them because they can easily use the things while wearing crampons. It is difficult to use regular aiders when wearing crampons, for obvious reasons.
MYTH: Russian aiders are no good for Yosemite jugging systems, bounce-testing or aggressive hauling because your hook keeps popping out of the ring when you lift your leg.
Trango Clip-In Loop for Jugging
TRUTH: If you are a Russian Aider n00b, like I was the first time I used the things, you will not realize that there is a small clip-in loop directly above the hook that allows you to clip your stirrup directly to your Aid Tree with a crab when performing such activities – sheesh.
Russkies rigged for jugging - note clip-in point above hook on cuff
You can see above how Buddy has attached his Aid Trees to his cuffs with the dedicated clip-in loop that is nearly invisible directly above the hook. I can't comment on his ascending system, but if you know what you're doing, you can make a standard Yosemite Jugging System, or like me - a Frog system.
I climb big walls using the Frog system [because I am first, and always, a caver] and this uses a dedicated sling assembly. When I first tried Russkies on Excalibur, my upper jug and dedicated sling "disappeared" one night - funny how that happens, eh? So I switched my froggy over to the Russians, jugging while trying to keep my hooks in place! Sheesh.
If you use the clip-in point shown above, you can jug at will, or do crazy-ass upside-down hauling, without worrying about your hooks slipping out.
DRAWBACK: It is sometimes difficult to get both hooks of your stirrups into the rings, especially the top rings, because there is not much degree of freedom when the Aid Tree is weighted. Please see the suggested product improvements below, which the Pro Model Russian Aiders will solve.
Russian Aider cuff hooks placed in top rings of Aid Trees - this is hard to do!
RECOMMENDATION: When Big Wall Camping in your portaledge, be certain that everything you need for a night of comfort is with reach of you while you are standing in your ledge. Once you remove your Russian Aider stirrups, you are effectively “grounded” in your ledge. If there is anything that is too high to reach, you may well be buggered* since you have no way of climbing up to grab it.
SUGGESTED PRODUCT IMPROVEMENTS:
Note that these product improvements are vis a vis the Trango models. Various prototypes have been developed, none of which is commercially available, that address some of these issues.
Pro Model Aid Trees – It’s awkward climbing with only two Aid Trees, each with pairs of hooks near the top. The tolerances are tight, especially with the other clusterfriggage going on in your system, and it is often difficult to get the hook on your second shin into the second ring when your other leg is already weighting the Aid Tree.
Aw, shoot - the Horse Chute!
Above the Truck Stop - SW Face El Cap
Photo by Holly Beck
The Pro Model will consist of four Aid Trees, one being a full length of five rings, and the other being a half length of three rings. I currently climb this way, using four Aid Trees - one new Fish Aid Tree and a second old Trango Aid Tree, one pair on each adjustable daisy. It is enormously faster and easier.
The Pro Model will also have a very tight loop at the top of the Aid Tree [see photo below] for attaching it to the Lead Carabiner, which is the dedicated keylock [non-toothed] crab you clip into each aid placement. My lead carabiner is pictured below - the purple Petzl Spirit straight gate. You want to minimize the height loss beneath the piece you’re standing on, but you also don’t want to risk losing your Aid Tree. While a larger hole permits the addition of a locking crab, it will lower you a carabiner length beneath your piece, or reduce the length of pull you get on your adjustable daisy by the same length, or both.
Trango Aid Trees - note Dr. Piton modification of tightened attachment loop at top
A tight loop on top of the Aid Tree – so tight that a carabiner will only barely fit – will give the Aid Tree enough “bite” on the lead carabiner that you don’t have to worry about the Aid Tree somehow falling off. As you can see in the photo of my blue Trango Aid Tree directly above, I took it to the shoe repairman, along with the lead carabiner I use, and asked him to bar tack the hole in the Aid Tree tighter so that the crab could just barely slide in and out. The yellow Trango Aid Tree pictured below has this bartack on it, although you cannot see it because it is hiding behind the Fish Aid Tree, which has not yet had this modification made, but is temporarily frigged with duct tape. This modification has worked well for me, and I have yet to drop anything [from my Russian Aider system] – sheesh. A disadvantage of this setup is that you lose a half a degree of freedom of the Aid Trees sliding easily along the bottom of the lead carabiner, so be careful to avoid gate loading. However this seems to me like the lesser of two evils - as you can see the system is compact and [reasonably] wankproof.
Pro Model Rigging showing direct attachment of all components - yellow Yates Adjustable Daisy, Fish [black] and Trango [yellow] Aid Trees - to the purple [right] Lead Carabiner. In my left hand is my left Lead Carabiner on red adjustable daisy, with attached Fish [yellow] and Trango [blue] Aid Trees. Note the shortened rigging of the right Lead Carabiner [above] - the "holes" in the Aid Trees and daisy are held tightly shut with duct tape to prevent accidental loss
Currently Yates Adjustable Daisies have too large a hole in their end, and you risk losing the whole lead carabiner plus Aid Trees assembly if you don’t incorporate a locker. Accordingly I put the daisy connection on the spine of the carabiner, and “block” it on the bottom with the tight-fitting aid tree.
Better “Chicken Loop” – this is the Velcro-secured elastic strap that goes round your foot and holds the stirrup in place. The strap needs to be beefier, and the patch of Velcro much larger in order to stick.
Side View of Trango Hook
Note tied-off strap due to lame-ass buckle
There needs to be more padding on the calf, and there needs to be a better buckle system for both the calf and the foot which doesn’t slip like the Trango models.
Evan Freeman's homemade Russian Aider cuffs - nice and comfy and wide. I used these on several walls until the hook system failed irrepairably. Note Big Wall Crab for scale - I will pay a $200 US cash reward for the return of my crab, or you can join me on my next ascent of El Cap
The strap beneath your foot also needs to be burlier – currently I have put a piece of 1” tubular webbing around the skinny webbing, and this prevents abrasion of the Trango unit. However this strap should be bigger, and why not? It’s not like you’re it around or anything. Why not make it as wide as seat belt webbing for extreme comfort?
The damn things need to be colour-coded! Make the right stirrup "red for right", and the left stirrup another colour completely, so you know which one to put on which foot each morning. With the Trango models, this is rather trickier than you might at first think.
Hooking on the Ranch - photo by Kate Robertson = Batgirl
CONCLUSION AND PROCLAMATION
Dr. Piton believes that not only are Russian Aiders the Better Way, but they are emphatically The Sh|t. While they are not a panacea, they are pretty darn nice most of the time.
I will also stand behind my previous proclamation that Russian Aiders will one day become the norm in aid climbing, if not entirely superseding standard aid ladders, at least becoming substantially more popular. I believe that this will happen sooner than later, as soon as a cost-effective and reliable model becomes commercially available.
Is there a market for these things? Holy Moses, yeah! Now somebody go out and make the damn things, will ya?
Cheers and beers,
The Diabolical Dr. Piton aka “Pass the Pitons” Pete Zabrok
Floyd looks happy with his Russian Aiders!
And maybe so will you
* Wank Factor = Co-Efficient of Wank – That unitless number, which when multiplied by the total amount of time spent performing a task, equals the amount of time lost to unproductive activity [i.e. wanking about]
*Wanker – one prone to operating under a high Wank Factor
* Clusterfrig – what you get when your Wank Factor spirals out of control
*Buggered – finding yourself in a bad situation – usually self-inflicted – ranging from slight discomfort to extreme risk of death. Not necessarily baaaaaaaaad when referring to inflatable Big Wall Sheep [e.g. Eva]
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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nice write-up pete...very detailed, very interesting read...now i really want to test a set, for sure, eh...
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WBraun
climber
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Hey Pete, that's a mammoth compile you made above.
Where's the photos of how this thing works. Pictures to me speak volumes with this sort of thing.
Now I've seen everything except the hooks and how they attach.
Are they faster than using regular aiders?
If not, than slowness kills me .......
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I need some help.
I'm stuck in my backyard wearing my ski boots which are too well attached to my skis which I am laying on and can't seem to rise up from.
Damn you Pete!
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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I think in your leverage example that a Tele set up would actually achieve the same effect as the leverage is coming from the toe (which is fixed) and the top of the stiff boot.
But this is a nice write up, thanks.
Prod
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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I agree with Mr. Braun, a picture speaks a thousand words...Id love to see a few photos of these things in action, I really have no idea how these things work and am having a hard time picturing it..
great info though.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Thanks for the great write up. Pictures would be most appreciated!
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Thanks Pete, but how am I supposed to copy them without pics?
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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i would sure like to try these things out someday.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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A picture is worth a thousand words. You owe us like about 4 or 5 pictures.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Pete,
So, your knee has a hook on the inside that goes into a ring, while the bottom of your foot is free against the rock but pushing against a stirrup? So essentially your flagging your foot using your knee as a fulcrum? (Using your legs and core to stand tall?)
Thanks, Kim
Edited to add: Can you sit down in a squat and rest?
It looks like (from the B & W photo) that you could put a hook in two opposing rings and stand in balance with your feet in a "V".
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2007 - 11:18pm PT
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all your positive feedback! I'm about eight hours into this post now, but I have finally finished editing, uploading and hotlinking the photos. I have also made substantial revisions to the text with reference to your questions and to the photos, so you might want to have a re-read.
If you like and value this stuff, please reply to let me know. I can produce tons of stuff like this pretty easily, really. I can write pretty fast, it's just the photo phutzing that takes me so long. In fact, I can produce stuff like this on most any topic you need - just "ask Dr. Piton".
Werner, I think you'll like Richard's excellent photo of the hooks. I can't say if Russkies are any faster or not, but I don't think they're much slower either, especially when you upgrade to the Pro Model which is much easier to operate. You might be faster in regular aiders if you can slam your foot in without grabbing the aider - you usually have to grab the Aid Tree in order to get the hook into the ring.
Ron, you old fart - you might be in worse shape than me! Drink another beer and call your Wall Doctor in the morning.
Prod - yeah, you could step up in telemark bindings, but you will be camming your foot hard, straining the tendons on top. You will get hugely more mechanical advantage with a high-topped stiff downhill ski boot, I should think, and I know you will with a Russky stirrup.
Kim, your weight is more or less divided between the strap encircling your calf just below your knee, upon which the hook is weighted, and the strap running beneath your foot. If you are merely standing up on vertical or less-than-vertical rock, there is no camming action required, you just stand.
But when the rock overhangs, your knee is forced outwards and your toe moves inwards. Your toe is actually pressing against the rock - your heel is pretty much unrestrained. It is from this position - like what you see in the Shortest Straw photo - that you get the camming action between knee hook and foot.
I've never squatted and rested, it doesn't really feel practicable to me - you can rest quite comfortably in the lower "steps" = rings, while also hanging from your adjustable daisy. Yes, you can definitely make a "V" with your feet for stability, by pressing your heels together [usually] or your toes together [sometimes], pretty much the same way you can do with regular aiders.
And finally to rwedgee - I've put in ten pictures, so by my arithmetic you owe me five or six beers. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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For all the typing that Pete can do...the thing that speaks the most about how great these things are (or seem to be) is that after watching Pete climb with them, I'm willing to pay $300 for them...used!
Thank you for the article, Pete!
I'll report back on how my trial of them goes, looking forward to giving them a go.
:)
-Kate.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, Pete, how 'bout them Leafs, eh?
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Hey Pete - Maybe you should put your heading article over here, too. People would probably really appreciate it, its a great article, the best stuff I've seen on the topic, anyway.
-Kate.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Hey, Nefarious Randy: what about some photos of the RAiders that PTPP has stored at your place?
The Hook seems to be the main issue regarding good vs. bad designs, so a good set of views of that would seem to be in order. Post a photo of the hook you found, too.
I think Randy and Dingus both have the right idea: find an existing hook, and either modify it, or use it right out of the box. As I recall, the Chouinard/BD Cliffhanger has about the same dimensions as the titanium hook seen on "real" Russian Aiders. Cold-forming the base of that hook should not be a problem. After all, anybody ever seen a deformed angle pin, which is made from the same material? You could grind the sharpness off the tip, so it was more user friendly, as during a fall.
The weak velcro thing is easily solved: use real Velcro™, not the cheaper knockoff stuff. I worked on developing a product once that used velcro, and the Bean Counters wanted us to use the off-brand junk. Ten or twenty cycles, and the stuff was shot. Only Velcro™ held up for long-term use. The difference in price? Only Bean Counters, with an A-retentive complex, would have noticed.
As far as the fancy rings go, I know I've seen alloy steel washers, about 1.5" OD x 1.25" ID by about 1/8" thick. Unfortunately, I think they were part of the suspension of a Porsche I used to own, and thus, would be even more expensive than any titanium ring could ever possibly be.
So far, my short search for washers of that type, at the proper Grade 8 spec, has not been successful. But, I would guess they're out there, somewhere, for pennies apiece. The extra weight of the steel, compared to titanium, would be ludicrous to discuss. Alloy steel rings would rust at the surface, but not become cancerously weak. You should compare to cro-moly pins, like the ancient fixed ones you blindly clip every fifth/seventh route you do in the Valley.
Cro-moly tubing, in whatever size and wall thickness you want, is available from places like Aircraft Spruce. Cutting thin slices from that would probably provide good rings. You'd have to tumble them forever to radius edges that wouldn't cut the webbing. But, the tubing would come heat-treated and ready for business. Wider slices could be used to ensure no bending, even under bounce-testing.
Those Russian Aider titanium rings used to bend and deform, anyway.
Finding a way to incorporate RAider stirrups to a pair of high-top shoes (5.10 Altia), so there is no webbing strap across the bottom of the foot would be a great way to go. If the leg stirrups could be rapidly removed from the shoes, so much the better. Then again, cranking on the high-top uppers during bounce-testing of bad pieces might blow the soles of the shoes right out. Experimentation would be required, preferably up there, for the first time ever, on the Wall.
After all, there is little point in reducing the difficulty by using the newfangled RAiders, without first getting in one last, good Russian Roulette trip up the Stone.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2007 - 02:19pm PT
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Holy frig, Fender - that's a fabulous post you have over at that other place!! Since this is supposed to be the "ultimate" Russian Aider thread, how would you feel about copying and pasting your post over here at McTopo, along with those superb hotlinked photos? Once you do, I have a number of pro and con comments regarding your design that I will add here.
The other post at RC.com about Russian Aiders - which Tom started and which doesn't contain all that much info, to be quite honest - has 18,000 hits on it. So there is obviously a hunger - and a market - for Russian Aiders. What do you think about trying to keep everything in one place [here] to minimize the clusterfriggage, so there is a single definitive place to go to find the information you need? Accordingly, could you please put your excellent Russian Aiders stuff right here in this thread, Fender?
Anders, it is fortunate I am not a hockey fan, living in such close proximity to Toronto. Smartass. Do you know when Ottawa choked in the finals last year, and some bird-brained wankers from Anaheim won the coveted Stanley Cup, it was front-page news up here in the Great White North, and yet virtually nobody in California was even aware there were hockey games being played, let alone their significance? I hear even bowling is more popular than hockey in California.
Tom, your ideas as always are superb. Unfortunately, you will have to actually DO something to make them work. Mark and I could definitely use your help on WOEML next spring, and you know precisely what you need to DO to make this happen. For what is life without El Cap?
Kate - good idea, thanks for your kind comments. I'll put a copy of the heading article over here, too.
Hmmm, Tom's point about photos of the Trango hooks is valid. I actually brought my Russkies home to use for aid climbing in Roppel Cave, so I will take a few photos myself, and splice them into my article above.
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fenderfour
climber
Seattle, Wa
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Per the Doctor's request:
These were made 2 years ago. I have since changed some of the design. The strap around the knee is now a steel specialty cinch buckle. No slippage. The loop to hold the foot in is now elastic and has a plastic ladder-lock instead of the 1" tubular and double-back buckle.
Still no padding. I haven't needed it yet.
Leg hook side
One wide strap goes around the calf just below the knee. The hook is positioned on the inside of the knee to facilitate hooking the rigs of the aid-tree.
The wide black webbing around the knee is 2" wide seatbelt webbing, about 24" long. The buckle at the end is a nickel plated steel double-back buckle.
The narrow yellow webbing is 1" wide tubular. The buckles are nickel plated steel as well. The main piece of webbing running from the hook around the bottom of the foot is about 50" long.
The black webbing on the footbed is 2" wide tubular webbing. It's about 9" long.
The short strap across the top of the foot is 1" wide tubular. It is about 18" long and has the same nickel plated buckle as the main webbing.
Leg outside
Foot
Here's a close-up of the footbed. The buckles are on the outside of the leg to reduce wear.
Assembled aider
Disassembled aider
The aider is actually two pieces. The long yellow strap goes through the bottom loop of the hook with a half twist and buckles back on itself.
Buckled footbed close-up
The inner (smaller) strap goes around your foot so that it doesn't slip out of the aider. It is sewn continuously along the footbed. I tried using the aiders without this strap and it was a real pain.
The original aiders had a strap that went around your ankle to perform this function. It tended to get in the way, so I copied the straps used on the Metolius Easy Aiders instead. I've used them heavily and they worked well.
Unbuckled footbed close up
Footbed close-up showing pooch
I added some extra material when I sewed in the footbed. This was mentioned in the Kung-Fu aider How to and it seemed like a good idea. The reason you leave the extra material is so that your weight is carried by the wider 2" webbing instead of the main 1" strap. I wanted one continuous strap from the hook all the way around the foot so that I wasn't entirely screwed if the stitching for the footbed failed.
Front side of hook
The hook plate is a piece of Ti bar stock 1" wide x 2 1/2" long x 1/8" thick. The hook has been welded to the base plate. The loops are made from thin wall Ti tubing that has been smashed a bit to elongate the radius.
Side of hook
The hook itself is 1/4" dia Ti bar stock. The hook is about 1 3/8" from the front side of the plate to the tip of the hook as shown in this photo.
Back of hook
You can clearly see that the hook is held on with 3 countersunk screws. The base plate of the hook has three tapped holes to accept the screws. I used a soldering iron to make neat holes in the knee strap. I also used a small piece of webbing as a "pad" for the metal to webbing interface. I think that the metal will wear on these small pieces of webbing instead of the main strap.
Plate Dims: 1" wide x 2" long x 1/8" thick
Notes on Construction:
I bought all the webbing and hardware (except hooks) from Seattle Outdoor Fabrics: [url]http://www.seattlefabrics.com/[/url]. The hooks could be easily manufactured by anyone with a welder.
I left about 2" of material to sew buckles on. I used a 10# test nylon upholstery thread. I did not have a bartacker, so I used a straight stitch.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Thanks for the post and pics
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Tom: " Hey, Nefarious Randy: what about some photos of the RAiders that PTPP has stored at your place?"
I actually don't have them, or most any of Pete's stuff at my house now, short of a few things I use throughout the year. Seems he has a friend living closer to the big stone than I who will store his stuff. Works for me cause I cleared out my storage unit (saved myself $50 a month!)and actually park one of my cars in the garage now.
Chromoly (sp?) rings are the way I went. The Ti stuff sucked anyway. It practically bent under body weight. The slightest bounce and they would bend.
Scary hooks on that homemade jobber! Yikes!
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fenderfour
climber
Seattle, Wa
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The Ti rings do suck. They bend and scar as you use them. THe rough edges fray the webbing on the trees. I have a set of welded steel rings I will be using to create new aid trees.
Those are Ti hooks from the Uralsport Russian Aiders. They are not home made.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2007 - 12:12am PT
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Damn, those are suh-weet looking Russkies, dude! I really like the wide band around the knee, and especially the wide footbed. Beauty, eh?
The hook looks pretty big, though. Can you put a ruler next to it for scale? How do you find that hook works - OK or what? Have you tried it with Fish's Aid Trees?
I'll take some pix of my Trango hooks with a ruler for scale, so you guys can get a good look at it.
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fenderfour
climber
Seattle, Wa
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The hooks are pretty big. Someone requested photos of the buckles, so I will post pics of the buckles and hooks soon.
I only have Russ' aid trees. These hooks work well, but I'm finding that the hooks scar the rings pretty easily. The rings are shredding the nylon on the trees. It leads me to believe that the hooks are made with a harder Ti alloy than the rings.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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My first aid trees were made using home depot welded rings. They are MUCH heaveier. However they also do not flap around in the wind nearly as much (though the Fish are still far better than normal aiders). So far my Fish trees are not chafing much, maybe my rings have fewer burrs? My top two sets of rings are ovaled from high leverage on overhung stuff, but none from testing (I daisy bounce). I'll post up some pics of my abominations tonight. Home Despot hooks suck.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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New photos uploaded, and text improved and clarified.
Thanks to John Raaf = raffie for the photos, eh?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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Ok, I got inspired by Dingus' question as to how much could be done with BD hooks. They are NOT optimal, especially their shape and excess size, but they should be a modest improvement over my Home Despot hooks. So I built up revision 4 of my russian aiders. I've included pics of my Kung Fu aider inspired rev. 3's (these have gone up a couple walls, and several partial walls...). Rev 1 were VERY bad, rev 2 had sucky padding, but were what got me up my first wall.
Rev 4 moves to a 1" stirrup instead of a 2", as I found it was too bulky under the foot, and got in the way of free moves. Rev 4 uses the CMI double pass buckles only because I ran out of the cinch ones I used on rev 3.
I meant to make the right one red, and the left blue, but wasn't paying attention. So I left them backwards becuase it was easier than ripping the seams.
I figure if the ones off ebay went for >300, and Russ's trees are only $50, sooooo I could charge $250 for these? Hmmm....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2007 - 01:13am PT
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Good job improvising Moof
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Dec 10, 2007 - 09:02am PT
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Wow, impressive job there!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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Wow, superb job by Moof! Isn't it amazing the sorts of things a man can come up with when he's motivated by desperation? Trapped in his cubicle with nothing to think about except getting on the Big Stone? I like how the design has evolved. How wide is the strap under the foot? I like the extra padding for sure.
Man, when I was married to the ex - who was completely unsympathetic to my caving, climbing and fishing adventures - I used to have my "cave" down in the basement where I put up all my topo maps. I had the whole of Quetico Provincial Park - a fishing and paddling paradise just north of Minnesota's Boundary Waters - pinned up across one big wall. And there I would go to hide from her, and dream of my next adventure, which might be whenever she would "let" me go, which of course was never long enough. Accordingly I planned my trip to the nearest hour, driving my partners crazy. Then I would spend the next year looking at my slides again and again.
Now I'm self-unemployed with a girliefriend who "gets it", so I rarely spend much time planning these things - I just go. Funny how that happens, eh?
Any, just because I can fit in a quick post right underneath his excellent photos, here's one shot of the Trango hook that gives you an idea how big it is. Those Cliffhanger hooks look a bit big - maybe you could bend them inwards, and cut or file them off?
Note the annoying way that I have had to thread the free end of the calf strap around itself to prevent it from slipping - this is because the crappy Trango buckles are no good.
FYI, I am in the process of splicing in six more close-up photos of my actual Russian Aider cuffs, and once they're in, my post will be more or less complete.
P.S. Having fallen on several duct-taped hooks for pro, I can tell you with certainty that they will stop falls. Fish and Captain Hooks are awesome, but even Talons have worked for me. Nor have I even once blown out a hook placement by falling on it. I once fell 25' onto a duct-taped Cliffhanger on Native Son - with no Screamer on it - and it held my fall, which was a good thing considering what might have happened if it hadn't held.
I used duct-taped hooks for pro all the time, especially when I am scared, or when I don't have much rope out and the fall factors are high. Now the bolt you see is an ancient piece of mank, that believe it or not is probably not even as strong as the hook! I know this with certainty, too, because I have pulled so many old bolts out and replaced them.
We didn't replace this bolt, or many others on the Ranch, because through an oversight of mine, Kate and I ended up on the wall with only two 3/8" bolts for replacing old gear, and accordingly a lot of our belay anchors were pretty marginal. So I was usually scared when climbing above our stations, and this was probably one of those times!
What the gentleman below writes sounds good in theory, however it doesn't line up with my experience.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 10, 2007 - 01:52pm PT
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Will you still think they are great when you rip out your femoral artery in a fall?
Duct taped hook for pro, and the very next piece is a bolt? What's the point?
If you fall on a duct taped hook, you'll likely rip the placement and have to put in a rivet. The likelihood it will hold you is infinitesimal. I really wish you would stop doing that and telling people to do it.
But that pretty much covers everything you do.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
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Pete,
Numerous buckles out there do much better. You should send yours to Fish for a refit, I'm sure if you supplied the hardware and careful sketches he'd have little trouble with the sewing and bartacking. Might only cost you 50 beers american (That's 53 beers canadian these days).
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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Wrathchild,
Possible disembowlment by hook is supposed to be one of the many "joys" of aid climbing. In this case though the hook is way down by your knee. About the best you could do to yourself in a fall is kneecap yourself. Even then you are just about as likely to impale yourself with your nut tool, have the rope wrap around your head and decapitate yourself, or even wise up and take up sport climbing (parish the thought).
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Dec 10, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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In checing out the various postings regarding RAiders it appears the difficulty is mostly the hook and the knee attachment. Also, some have mentioned difficulty with the knee attachment interfering with a knee pad. Hypothetically, what if the knee pad and the knee attachment were integrated into one unit? Could something like the BD telekinesis knee pads be adapted with beefier load bearing webbing, padding and a hook? I've had better luck with softer knee pads as they don't tend to skate around but maybe the BD knee pad with some sticky rubber affixed to the front? Thoughts?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
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Knuckles,
There have been at least one or two pairs I've seen pictures of over the last few years doing exactly what you're mentioning. It looks to be a very viable idea. I personally just use the thin volleyball kneepads and suffer. The hard plastic ones just are too bulky for me. With the thin volleyball ones it's all good. The russian aiders keep the stupid pads from migrating down due to the conical nature of my fat thighs and atrophied calves.
Here is a link to pictures on rc.com (not really the one I had in mind...): http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Big_Wall/russian_aider_cuffs_version_2.0_29423.html
EDIT:
Found the ones I was looking for:
[img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/5/330555-largest_a4.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/5/330555-largest_a5.jpg{{/img}}
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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Ryan,
It's true that if your kneepad is bulky, it's sometimes hard to see the hooks. Lately I've been using the "skateboard" type kneepads with the hard plastic turtle shell [I like turtles] as opposed to the "wrestling" or "volleyball" style soft kneepads, simply because the former usually come with Velcro attachment straps, while the latter usually require you to slide the soft kneepads up your leg. Accordingly, I much prefer the convenience of being able to add the kneepads after I've forgotten to put them on, which I usually do.
So I prefer the convenience of the Velco straps. If the Great Designers here want to include an integrated soft kneepad, that wouldn't bother me a bit. I think the pads should have Velcro adjustment straps, so you can wear them with thick pants in cold weather, or in shorts [so you can puncture your femoral artery] in warm weather. A traditional volleyball-style pad doesn't give you any adjustability.
Clearly Moof is a man well on his journey from Young Bull to Old Bull, as evidenced by not only his great design of Russkies, but also his manly body.
Here is the photo hotlinked from above:
These are Evan Freeman's design, and I met him on the summit of El Cap once after we both summitted. He showed me his home-made Russkies, and I bought 'em on the spot!
If someone knows how to reach Evan, we could sure use him on this post. His design was quite comfortable indeed, and the hook was OK so far as I was concerned. However the things failed on me after a few walls, because the area directly beneath the hook abraded, and the hook basically fell out the front through the hole. Too bad, as I liked the things.
Hey, and like thanks to everyone for really helping make this the ULTIMATE Russian Aider Post, eh?! Cheers!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 10, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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The hooks in Evan's design (above) are one of the hooks (of two) that I was deciding on when I was working with the aiders. (I never saw Evan's design until now) It's a great hook. Small, light, cheap, easy to come by. Best of all, it's SUPER strong. More than strong enough to do the job.
The best part of testing was testing the rings on the trees! Bounce testing became drop testing. More for the hell of it than anything. Fun day. hahaha
I found it ironic that as I was cleaning the other night, I came across some of the rings, hooks, etc. I'd purchased before common sense got the better of me on the project.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 04:04pm PT
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Nefarius,
Mine dropping me a bone here? Where do I get some? Can't see enough to do much good with...
P.S. I like making this sort of crap. It's a welcome change from my engineering job where lately I don't get to build a damn thing... So if anyone wants a pair of BD hook russian aiders, I'd probably be willing to do them for about ~$70/pair (~$40 in materials, #30 for labor). It would be less if I don't have to pay $12/hook.
EDIT:
Found them I think:
http://www.berkeleypoint.com/products/hardware/doublejwebhook.html
$6/each isn't bad at all. I'll have to get a handful and take a shot at rev. 5... Where's my xmas bonus this year?
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 10, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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Hey Zabrok,
Do you understand the concept of a thread?
You just edited a previous post to "pre"reply.
Nice shot at biasing before the fact.
Maybe I should post to every thread right away, so I can go back and edit it to slam anything anybody might EVER say.
That alone is enough for me to say something about what a slimy bastard you are.
You are a phucking clown, and everybody knows it.
You're a blight on the landscape and an affront to the sport.
I've been up the Big Stone well over a dozen times, put up FA's in remote ranges in 6 countries, and only taken 2 aid falls EVER. You whip all the time, and drop your haulbag.
Stop giving advice. I don't care how many routes you oozed up.
I hope to read about you in "Passages" someday. But jackasses like you seem to live forever.
And yet, the procession of fools hang on your every word.
Will you even feel bad when your advice kills someone?
Are you so self-unaware that you don't know that everyone who knows their left nut from a wired nut can't stand you?
Moof,
Do you know where the femoral artery is?
It has nothing to do with disembowlment.
The inside of your knee is the PERFECT place to put a hook to slice your OTHER femoral artery.
Just stay focused enough to keep your legs apart during a fall, and you'll be fine.
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Dec 10, 2007 - 09:10pm PT
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thanks moof and pete for the informative thread. i appreciate when people post pertinent information in a concise and logical manner. thanks again!
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 10, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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Wrathchild, way to paste the poleclimber Pete. Hadn't read such a refreshing post like that in a long time.
The prospect of those hooks snagging anything during a fall is just grisly.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 10, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Wrathchild said:
"Moof,
Do you know where the femoral artery is?
It has nothing to do with disembowlment.
The inside of your knee is the PERFECT place to put a hook to slice your OTHER femoral artery.
Just stay focused enough to keep your legs apart during a fall, and you'll be fine. "
Dude, chill! Please don't direct our hatred of PTPP at me. If it wasn't for the fact that I really, really like ruskie aiders I wouldn't have posted in one of his threads (kinda thought it would have been more appropriate if he'd just posted within the OTHER 2 russian aiders threads of the last week rather than putting "Dr. Piton" and "Ultimate" in the same title. Still makes me feel a bit dirty that I have posted in this thread...
I was using the word disembowelment mainly because I like the word, the imagery, and to try to poke fun at your alarmism. I've fallen a few times with my russian aiders on, and so far no harm. After all, this is aid climbing. If I wanted a safe sport I'd take up professional flaming.
BTW, still waiting for a picture or instructions for the patented Canadian AssASSin double munter line joiner for ultimate A5 jugging.
Edit:
Please don't make fun of my ignorance. I am a high school drop out (after 9th grade), so take it a little easy on me.
Clarification:
I also have a 6 years of college and 9 years working as a microwave engineer, so yeah, I stop drooling on myself once in a while and yes I know what an artery is.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 11, 2007 - 03:08am PT
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That looks like the hook, Moof! I believe the ones I bought (not from the same place) were rated to like 6000lbs of force. I think. I'd have to check my notes. Regardless, it was *well* above what was needed. Mine had a different coating on them though - a gold coating.
Wow guys! Big wall climbing and the equipment used in it might be dangerous?!?!! Holy frig! I think I'll sell all of my wall gear! I'd hate to rick an injury to myself. F*#k, I guess I should sell my ice gear too cause that's way more dangerous. Why do you guys have to find a way to try to make everything negative?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 11, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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Nefarius,
I did run across a non-stainless version of the same hook at http://www.strapworks.com/Wire_Hook_p/wh.htm which is what I believe you are referring to withthe gold coating.
They also had the stainless ones for only $2.55 at http://www.strapworks.com/Wire_Hook_p/sswh.htm
In either event it looks to me like a little rounding of the tip on a grinder or with a file would be a good idea.
Thanks!
Edit:
Also if someone knows of better places for buckles...
http://www.innermountainoutfitters.com has the black CMI ones in my pics, and several others, but has almost zero pictures.
http://www.onrope1.com has a decent selection of buckles, but no straight double back buckles (non-cinch) that were to my liking.
Numerous other places had stuff that I'm sure would be great for a dog leash, but gave little indication that they would be wall worthy or not.
Edit:
They are rated for a working load of 400 lbs, which is probably a factor 5 safety factor. I'll do some vicious bounce testing when I get them in.
FYI,
I ordered enough to make a half dozen pairs. The hook will still NOT be great. However if anyone wants a pair of cuffs I'll try and do them for $60/pair plus $5 shipping (cuffs ONLY, see Russ for trees). One person has already requested a pair. I should be able to pop out some within a week if the buckles I ordered are good enough.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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My original post at the top of the thread has now been updated with new text and six close-up photos of the Trango cuffs, with emphasis on the hooks and their attachment to the devices - hope it helps yous guys with your design. Right then, lads - have at it. And thanks again for all your help.
I found the hooks that Evan Freeman used to be perfectly satisfactory, FWIW.
Cheers,
Pete
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 11, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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Pete,
The pics are nice, but sadly without access to hooks with that vertical slot they cannot be mimmicked too well. I'm relying on a tightly sewn tunnel to keep the hook in place, and it is a weak point in my rig, as I am stressing those stitches. The Trango design puts tensions throught the hook, so it will stay put as long as webbing and not the padding are taking the tension. Thankfully in my case the stitches are not load bearing, so they don't see full body weight, but I really would prefer access to a Trango style hook instead of this hardware store scrounge. Yankee ingenuity applied to a russian design, sheesh...
Edit:
For completemess, here are the pics or the russian russian aiders. No good profile shots of the hooks, but still a neet rig.
Curious that they don't have a clip in loop for jugging and testing...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 11, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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That's an interesting hook... Different than the other russians I've seen. The design is basically the same, however, and adding a loop to the webbing on that model would be the same as the other models I've seen.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 12, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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Ok, got some of those wire hooks in. They look pretty good. Very similar in dimension to the cliff hanger, but no need to spend a bunch of time flattening them, and less concern about them straightening out under load:
Buckles are still "in the mail", not in until the 18th :(
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 13, 2007 - 06:30am PT
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These are looking funner and funner. Thanks Pete and Moof!!!
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:13pm PT
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So I set out to see what I could come up with. I found the hook Moof was using (or pretty close) on the end of some tie down straps at Lowes. The straps had a working load of 600lbs. and a max of like 2000lbs. so I thought I might get away with using the sew job the straps already had. The goal then became to do little to no sewing.
I ended up mutilating two old harness' we had lying around. My wife's old leg loops, fully cranked down were just right for my Guide Tennies so those became the foot stirrups. Some leg loops off one of my old rigs became the knee straps. This required some modification. The harness used was a BD Blizzard which has 1" webbing running around the backside of the leg loops. I had to cut away a bunch of the padding so it would fit below my knee intead of on my upper thigh as it was designed. The nice thing about this setup is that the buckles that folks have struggled with are replaced by the double back buckles on the old leg loops so there is no slippage.
The hook on one side already had the tie down webbing sewn on so all I had to do was thread a beefy buckle borrowed from a gear sling (it's load bearing)on the end. So now the knee cuffs are in place and you have webbing with a loop on the end hanging down (the loop is what attached the webbing to the ratchet for the tie down unit). I brought that loop back up to act as the clip in/hauling point on the knee cuffs. Now the beefy buckle is hanging down at upper calf height. I then threaded the remainder of the double back webbing from the foot strap through the buckle, thus giving me some adjustment between the upper and lower components.
I tried it on with my knee pads and it's actually quite comfortable.
As for the aid trees with rings, I hopefully have some coming from Fish but in the meanwhile I had to do something to test my new creation. I took some 6mm cord, put a eight on a bite on top and clove hitched rap rings at about the distances I would expect the rings on the Fish/Trango trees to be. This appears to work very well. The rings are lightweight, interface really well with the hook and the whole rig is easily replaceable if something is wearing out. I don't know if the rings will deform under heavy bouncing but we'll see.
I'll try and get some pictures up over the weekend but all in all I was pretty pleased with what I came up with.
Total carnage:
1 medium duty tie down kit from Lowe's
1 old Trango Super Fly wmn's harness
1 old BD Blizzard harness
10 rap rings
2 lengths of 6mm cord (7mm might be better as it would likely drape a little better, thus putting the rings in a predictable place and not stretch as much as 6mm though some of that was no doubt knots compressing)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
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Like Deucey said: " These are looking funner and funner."
But Wrathchilds post summed up my first and initial feelings about having hooks and sh'it like that strapped on to me.
We rescued a guy once who had a biner embedded in his leg on a fall.
He was hanging there hooked to that biner, YIKES! I need to find that photo.
Anyways, if you like this setup cool, but I would never want to use it as I tend to like to cut loose out of my aiders and those hooks, straps and buckles would tend get in my way.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 13, 2007 - 07:59pm PT
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Dear Lord!
I guess we gotta change out the whole rack to nothing but quicklinks?
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 14, 2007 - 01:41am PT
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^^^He had a lot to say?
Wraithchild is full of crap.
I would be more worried about the rack of pins (pointed objects) hanging off of the wall rack (next to all your vital organs). What about the big hooks dangling right below your rib cage?
I have fallen while wearing RAiders. No problems yet.
You bounce off stuff and you are going to get hurt. It doesn't matter if you are wearing RAiders or wall ladders. You are more likely to get strangled by your wall ladders than punctured by RA's. Sheesh. Boneheads.
If you think climbing is dangerous and it worries you then you should take up crocheting instead.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 14, 2007 - 01:47am PT
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On a positive note, the RA's are very cool IMHO.
Moof is moving right along with some great ideas.
How many people really want a pair of these?
Trango wanted $120 for a pair of cuffs and nobody bought 'em?
Would people pay $160 for a full set up of two cuffs and two "Pro Model" trees? It seems that PTPP and moof and I are it for the seriously interested.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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Nice posts, guys.
Werner, so far as I am aware, there is no documented case of anyone getting hurt by a Russian Aider hook when falling. Have a look at the Trango hook - it is very small, round, and rather unthreatening. It would be virtually impossible to impale oneself on the thing - as buddy above points out, there are any number of nastier items on your lead rack to do you in first.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 14, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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T Moses,
I'm convinced that there are about 10 guys interested, 9 of which made their own, and the tenth was Kate who now has hers. Even with Zebra print webbing I'm guessing nobody will take me up on my offer to make Ghetto Cuffs (other than the one person I have already shipped a pair to).
Pete makes the point that there aren't a critical mass out there. Most folks stick with what is tried and trued, so unless you can actually see them in action, and try your buddies out first, most folks simply will remain curious bystanders.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 14, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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I'm looking forward to learning some new moves on the aid slings, then perhaps try out for the Cirque 'd Soleil or something.
Has there actually been anybody who caught something with the hooks during a fall, or is it a bushesque tooriest scare?
ps, Pete, what's with Wrathchild's wrath? Did you mistake him for one of your furry sheep at some point or something???
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 14, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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These just look like the stuff. Still dialing the old system (adjustable aiders)and loving em. Pete, are these that much more comfortable on rough terrain? What I'm wondering about is does the all day use of a hook near the knee, with the foot being the leverage off of point, kinda wear on the knees? Just wondering as I'm a dainty 245 at 6 foot tall with knees just about worn out. How do your knees feel after all day in these things while climbing on just one side of your leg?
Lots of cool stuff here. (Disclaimer to follow- Had to come out of Lurkdom just to ask Wrathchild this)
Wrath, If your climbing skills all over the world were as honed as you would like me to think, then why would you ask this? "Duct taped hook for pro, and the very next piece is a bolt? What's the point?". With the caption for the photo clearly stating Kate as the esteemed photog, it was quite clear to me(still a wall gumbie in training) that maybe he was just being a gentleman and leaving something for the second to traverse on? God that felt good.
Thanks for photos as I'm going to tinker with some chromoly I have in the garage and wonder what the optimun hook would look like? Round with a round blunt point? Flat stock to spread out the load at the band transitioning to round hook? Or is the hook in Moof's picture of the Russian Russian aider the one to have?
Bob
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 14, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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x-cat...yes, Pete sets up the cleans quite conveniently...
However, one with such a *well-trained* eye as that of W.child should have had far MORE fun with the fact that there is a *scream aid* attached to the bolt...
But then such an expert eye would also have noticed that it isn't a bolt, its an original machine head rivit with a plate hanger...on a route where the bolts were snapping under bodyweight. :) :)
-Kate.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 14, 2007 - 09:35pm PT
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xtremecat:
2 issues with the hooks that are seperate.
#1, hook itself. Hook need to be low enough profile to not catch on EVERYTHING. No matter what, you will hook on stuff, but it's best to minimize it a bit (when I know I have to do some free moves I twist the whole arrangement to the outside of the knee and life is a bit better). The hook still has to be big enough to stick out past your kneepad and allow easy snagging of the ring,or you'll find yourself having to grab the ring to place it into the hook more than you'd like (you still will have to in the wind and in a lot of top ring moves). The hook would be be preferably straight down at an angle, and NOT a big arc'ed half circle. The ring will sit in the high point of the hook, so you want that high point as close to you as possible. Not a big deal, but worth paying attention to. Blunt is good to, as you WILL hook your partner occasionally, and it's best not to draw blood. My opinion is that a leeper logan hook is too small, while a cliffhanger is a bit too big, maybe 3/4-1" from the back of the hook to the tip?
#2, hook attachement. This is the PITA with most off the shelf hooks. You need the hook to stay in place despite high forces in a variety of angles as you go through high steps, traverses, overhangs, etc. Clearly in the pictures there are a variety of solutions that have been tried ranging from tight tubes made in the cuffs, a vertical slot(s) in the hook to pull the hook in tension, and even bolting the hook through the webbing. The point being that there isn't just one answer here, but you gotta make sure the hook stays pointing forward and is held very snugly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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When I saw the username "xtrmecat", I half expected some slim, svelte twenty-something feline climbing hottie ready to rip up the walls. So I confess I felt more than a little disappointed to read,
"I'm a dainty 245 at 6 foot tall with knees just about worn out. How do your knees feel after all day in these things while climbing on just one side of your leg?"
Clearly, xtrmecat is a Fine Figure of a Man, and uniquely qualified for life on the big wall owing to his keen eyesight and ability to feel empathy for his pitch cleaner, not to mention being a hella fine counterweight for space hauling. Dr. Piton is working hard towards achieving his stature, and with Christmas on its way, looks forward to "bulking up for the wall".
Bob, the Russkie cuffs actually provide a lot of stability and comfort, in the same way the downhill ski boots do. The hook tends to rotate to the inside of your knee because that gives you the straightest up-down orientation. This seems counter-intuitive, but let me assure you that because the cuff beneath your knee can rotate, there are no torsional stresses on your knee. It's just like standing in aiders, but with extra support. The things are extremely comfortable, and because your weight is spread out over your calf as well as onto the bottom of your feet, I believe your feet, legs and knees tire a lot less in Russian Aiders than when standing in regular aiders. You also feel hugely more in balance with your "knee" hooked into the rings - it's very stable and comfortable.
And any fool can be uncomfortable.
I have concerns with the double-width hook pictured above - I think the extra width would make it harder to fit into a ring, or force you to use bigger rings. [But I won't know for sure until I actually try the double hook]
I have used this type of single hook on Evan Freeman's cuffs [pictured in the post far above] and it worked fine, but I like the smooth, round and compact hooks the Trango models have. I agree your kneepad gets in the way a bit, so some may prefer a bigger hook.
Do not for a moment underestimate the size of the market for Russian Aiders! Kate watched me climb, and was sold [man, was she sold...] Once Russian Aiders get out there, and people see them in use and how well they work, the demand will happen. I maintain that once the supply becomes available and enough people start using them, that they will become at least as popular - if not even more popular - than traditional aiders. Think about not just how many aiders get sold each year, but how many people own aiders, and who will want to upgrade to Russkies. Mark my words on the upcoming popularity of RAiders - you heard it here first.
Caveat - OK, OK - you heard it from me first, and it was about five years ago! The only reason Russian Aiders haven't replaced traditional aiders yet is because there is no supply! Sheesh.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Dec 15, 2007 - 04:03pm PT
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Thanks everyone for all the great info. It's nice to see a 60+ post thread about something climbing related.
Part of the deal I see with widespread commercial production of RAiders is obviously the labor invovled. These are quite a bit more intricate than bar tacking webbing into some etriers or ladders.
There would also be some labor on the R&D side of things. Any decent manufacturer would want to try out a few design tweaks before going to market.
The selling period for an item like this would be at the summer OR show since that is when product for the next spring is previewed and hopefully ordered. That means the soonest we would see a commercially viable setup at retail is in spring '09 and that is assuming some company got their $hit together and had production quality samples by this coming August.
There is also the small matter of having a consumer base to sell to. The nice thing about aid climbing to the gear companies is that it is very equipment intensive. The bad thing about aid climbing to new climbers is that it is very equipment intensive. Is aid climbing a growing enough sub-set to support this much innovation?
Realize that many of the "aid" gear sold now is used for things besides aid climbing. Many window washers (at least in Seattle) have jugs and ladders for ascending back up the rope to fix missed spots. Much of the gear is used in rescue work. The point is that RAiders are really only useful for actual aid climbing and the only people buying them would be aid climbers.
A specialty item (RAiders) in a specialtly category (aid climbing) in a specialty shop or department (climbing) in a specialty store (anyone but REI, EMS or MEC) is not going to make a dramatic impact to retailers and they are kind of important in this equation.
So, what can we do as gear dorks to help this cause?
I think that prototyping various design elements will help speed the R&D process for a future manufacturer. If we can work out some of the bugs and work out some of the feature/benefit equation that would make bringning these to market much less expensive.
Also, showing an interest in them in general is key. A gear company needs to believe there are not just interested parties out there but parties that are willing to spend money. That is another key component.
Let's keep the conversation going and post up design successes and failures.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 15, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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Knuckles,
1. These are not super labor intensive. If I owned a bar tacker I would spend less time sewing my design together than cutting out the pieces (yes, I am slow at cutting...). Compare the sewing required to most any $50 harness and you'll quickly see that these use less material, and much less sewing. Also, there is less liability as these are not considered a life support device like a harness.
2. I don't think you need a BD, or Metolius to make these. Frankly if Fish can't see the viability out there, neither can those guys. And again, Trango tried and failed. I really think that Fish, or a similar "garage shop" operation is the way to go. Look at the Valley Giants as another great example. Nothing stops BD, Metolius, or Wild Country from making a #9 and #12, but it just isn't worth it for them. One dude with a shop can satisfy the market.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Dec 15, 2007 - 07:50pm PT
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When I had them for sale, they were slow movers... real slow. Told Pete at the time demand was 12 guys, including Canada.... sold nine pairs, gave away two pairs and kept one for the protoype of the Ultimate Russian Aider. That leaves the 3 guys you have on your list that did not get a pair.
Pete can get guys all fired up on this system for sure, and they are all hot to buy, but that is a handful of guys per year. As for the timeframe and all that, IF the hooks were available (which after a lot of trying, they ain't) these could be a "go to market item" in about 3 days from the design I already have. Fatal flaws: very limited market, dealers are not going to carry them since they are not a high margin T'shirt, and I don't really like them or use them.
If any of you really think this idea has legs, get together, back it up with some money and have a bunch made... and I mean a bunch. Test the theory on a couple of hundred pairs. That is enough units to get them made even off shore if you are lucky. Heard the talk, let's see the action.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 15, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
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For comparison, the first pair on ebay sold for $305 (ural sport), the pair a week later went for less than $100 (trango). I'm sure there is a chicken and egg problem, but I think ruskie aiders are likely to just be the Betamax of aid climbing, technically superior yet still lost into obscurity.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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If you make 'em, they will get bought and used.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Dec 16, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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It's a sure winner then.... Pete, when will your group have funding in place? Surely you wouldn't want to miss out on an early retirement for a small initial cash outlay?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 16, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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I got a cornfield in Iowa for sale...
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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I have tried them… and in my opinion they just create more of a cluster.
The main thing I didn’t like about it was; it caused you to think about steps/moves you wouldn’t normally have to consider, if you were just climbing regular aid ladders. It was VERY tedious to get the ring fast and accurately and didn’t feel quite right while standing on it.
Granted, I did only try them once so I could have probably gotten better at them, but it just seemed ridiculous to add more thinking, more “trinkets”, and odd body positions to the mix.
The less you look down, the more you can observe for upward progress.
Also, I like to get out of my aiders at every chance I can and felt very clumsy free climbing with those hooks in the way. Damn near dangerous!
But, that’s just me. Find out what works best for you. Have fun and climb hard... or easy. ;)
Cheers!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:24am PT
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The economic problem with the RAiders, and the rest of the climbing equipment business is due to a bunch of lamo sport climbers. These guys show up with a half rope, a couple of clipdraws, and start climbing. Their contribution to the outdoor-industrial complex is minimal.
Even worse, their behavior adversely influences the real climbing community, infecting it, as it were.
The net result is a bizarre fixation on free climbing, to the detriment of real climbing. Already, there is a recent fad in free climbing long hard routes on El Capitan.
What's next? Somebody not willing to even buy a few clipdraws, and then free-soloing El Capitan?
Enough of this hiking. Let's get back to climbing.
John Salathe
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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That right there is some funny stuff!^^^
It is even from somebody who would know.....the maker of the Valley Giants.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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Tom, what’s up bro? Hope to hang again soon. I’m not sure I understand your post.
Are you talking about media pushing the free climbing monkeys? Well, that’s the next progression, dude... in, my opinion that is much more satisfying to free a bigwall than to hang on it.
That being said, there’s a ton of cool places one can go hanging on gear… and the routes that interest me are the ones with mandatory free climbing or obscurity, yes even on EC. I just think all the extra “bells and whistles” are a bit over the top.
Again, only my experience, I wouldn’t be surprised that some guy came out of the woodworks with something impressive, just not for me. I like to keep it simple.
HAVE FUN!
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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OK, Extrmcat and Kate
Get your digs in so you can boost your egos, fine by me.
A big ego is important in aid climbing, otherwise you'd realize how much more rad freeclimbers are.
Pete only cares about his partner when she is female, you don't have to believe me, I don't care.
He puts screamers on everything, no point in commenting on that.
If you all are unwilling to at least consider the danger of a downpointing hook attached to the inside of your knee, don't compound arrogant negligence with beligerant indignation.
The only reason you haven't heard of a RA accident, it most likely due to the fact that hardly anybody uses them.
I tried RA's, and found them to be a hinderance.
But then again, I'm not planning to spend more than a week on a trade route. If you're in no hurry, use what ever you want.
If you choose to disregard my experience because you don't know who I am, fine. I don't blame you at all. I have no intention of divulging my identy on this forum, but I find your assumptions to be quite amusing.
But if you want to ignore what Werner and Ammon say as well, then you truely deserve whatever may befall you.
If you can't see the difference between gear on the rack and a hook attached to your knee, you are not as deep a thinker as you think you are.
I've known Ammon and Werner since before you ever learned to tie a knot.
It's garbage like this thread that keeps me from spending much time here.
The only redeeming qualities of this diatribe have been Russ' real world experience as a manufacturer/retailer and the quality workmanship Moof has displayed.
Moof, man, you should sew other stuff too, your work looks very bomber, reminds me of my buddy Jeff the Machine.
What was that BS line? "God, that felt good!"
Glad I could brighten your day. Self esteem is very important, keep at it little fella.
Since you have admitted you haven't done a wall, I won't bust on you for not knowing that the second should always have a few hooks on them for just such an occurance, or the whole art of "lowering out".
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Sorry to have offended you, Wrathchild. It wasn't very *Christian* of me, I know. :)
-Kate.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Nice send on the Ranch, Pete and Kate! How was it?
Ooooh, "Diabolical" – that’s a good one, Pete!
So, regarding top-stepping in these things… There is just one hook at the knee and no hook at the foot, correct? Can you hook the top biner on the piece that you are hanging from or are the two top rings on the aid-tree-things the highest point that you can “hook” your aider-things? It looks as though if you were climbing on less-than-vertical rock, say a slab, that your reach would be limited by the design of the aiders – meaning you don’t have a sub-top-step or a grab loop to sneak your toes into. And free climbing out of ‘em (a necessity, of course…)…??? …Looks like it would be a pain. I’m gonna have to stick with Russ, Ammon, and Wrathchild on this one. (Damn… now I need some music!… cuz I’m a wrathchild, wrathchild!… cuz I’m a wrathchild, wrathchild!… (imagine distorted guitar tone…)
Thanks for the thread, though – interesting stuff and some cool climber-engineering, for sure!
“OK, I’m ready to belay!”
ps- Hey Pete, there is no way in Hell that you should have to pay 200 bucks to get your crab back. The person who is detaining the thing should cooperate and give it back. Check your email that is listed in your profile.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Yup, it's not hard to figure out for someone on the scene such as yourself. After all, we have a lot of the same friends.
I'm not offended. It never had anything to do with me.
I caution, you ignore. How is that my issue?
So now that that is in the open, am I going to get banned again?
I am curious though, if you knew who I am, why infer that I have no experience?
Hey, BL-
I'm gonna shoot you an email, might get bumped to junk so look for the title "wrath"
Still at the GlauXXXXXXXX email?
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Hey WC:
The give-away on your identy wasn't your friends, it was the combination of your resume + the depth of your feelings and thoughts on Pete and his "way". Most people with that level of climbing couldn't care less about him. It would have required experience with him...not saying it isn't justified, just saying that its obvious.
The "Expert Eye" comment was that an eye that picked up the taped hook/bolt combo, combined with the experience listed, it was pretty funny not to notice the scream aid on the "Bolt." You gotta give me that one. I commented only to explain why the hook was taped, and that even a rivit, where in many cases might be bombproof, was suspect in that circumstances. Therefore, the strategy of "Protect all you can."
Either way, appreciate your warnings on the RAs, just like anybody else's. Will report back *hopefully* with femur and femoral artery in tact. If not, I give a stamp of approval for whatever you write on my memorial thread, if I get one. However, if its some other stupid-ass mistake that takes me out first, I humbly request that you hold back if possible a period of one year, till my dear ol' Mum stops reading it every other day.
Soas to not further junk up this thread, reply if you wish, but I'll shoot you an email response if you so wish. I'll log off for now, unless its relative to the RAs.
Heading out to pretend to climb...
-Kate.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 03:02pm PT
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By all means, go climbing.
Actually, if you search my user ID, I clearly identify myself. But since I am not female, pete won't remember.
Once someone is dead, all ribbing stops, so don't worry about that. I know all about the 'Mom' thing.
There are only two exceptions to that rule, and one has already passed.
As for the "seeing" and "eye" stuff.... Get back to me on that when your in your 40's. ;-)
Don't get me wrong, I thought RA's were going to be great, but then I tried them and found them to be worse than adj aiders, which should ONLY be used for jugging BTW.
I found the risk to far outweigh the benefit.
Out of curiosity, what kind of aiders were you using before? I used the Yates wall ladder and if you tape the ends of the tubes right they friggin' ruled.
I'm only poking around on the Taco because my Transmission just went out and I can't go skiing until it's fixed.
Once it's fixed, you won't be seeing me anymore, there is 2 feet in my front yard and it's not even Christmas yet. I intend to get 100 days in this season, and I don't mean typing.
Be well Kate,
Christian
edit- Ah, you are correct you did get that one. I saw that it was a screamer, but didn't note that it was a Scream AID!
That's even better!
That's a great example of what I am always saying.
Be safe, getting older does have a few rewards.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 16, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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Hey WC,
I only know you by reputation (by way of TP, aka WS [who by the way is already on the road to JT, woot!] from the Muir "incident" with the Canadian Assassin).
Anyway, I have sewn a bunch of other stuff, mostly for myself an a few partners. A lot of killer gear bags with 2" rolled webbing handles that are great for dragging up out of the depths of the haul bag, the russian aiders, lots of mods to existing gear like an extension collar on my budget haulbag, belay seat, a portaledge floor (still needs some tweaking and a fly), rope bags (similar to the A5 and Fish ones with the zip out bellows), etc. I really yearn for a bar tacker, but I get buy OK with just the single stitch industrial I have right now.
In my case I have no skill, and really had a rough time using standard aiders. I'm an engineer, so lack of coordination and physical strength are very familiar hassles for me, and they showed up in my second steps or higher. I've personally found the RA's to be much easier and fast for me to use. I've also had a few partners lust for pairs because they see me doing stuff they struggle with. Again this is not surprising, as I suck at aid climbing (well, all climbing) so I only attract partners who also mostly suck, and like good aid climbers (which we are in mentality only) we look for gear to overcome skill.
BTW, talking to WS/TP I can only start to understand the twisting and warping the Canadian Assassin has done to you mindset on walls. I hope someday you get back out there withthe right partner(s) and send with a smile on our face. The last time TP and I went out to attempt the Prow it really brought back some F'ed up mental trauma.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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Hey WC:
My mom will appreciate the kindness. :)
I use the Yates wall ladders and love them. The Metolius ladders lack a spreader bar, so I'm always annoyed by crushing my hand and the nylon is hard on my fingers, as I don't climb gloves. Spreader bars are awesome, IMO. Also, the Metolius dont have the elastic under the steps for super easy jugging, cleaning, and hauling. I tape the ladders by the spreader bar due to excessive wear there. I am super-happy with them, until I hit sustained kidney-crushing high stepping during endurance nailing experiences. I'm just really hoping for a way to stand high in more comfort for extended periods, like awkward heading or beaking. We'll see...
I was hoping that by the time I'm 40, the resolution on digicams and bandwidth will be so good, I'll never miss the opportunity to truly skewer a nemesis. ;)
One of these days, over beersch somewhere, remind me to show you the photos of when I learned that adjustable aiders are just for jugging. But in the mean time...picture these things in combination: Hooks, a bouldering gym in Chicago, and a very angry marionette. Hopefully the RA's will go better than that, but you never know.
Wishing a you a great skiing season, WC, and affordable transmission repairs, if there is such a thing. See you on the walls when and if the time is right.
:)
-Kate.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 17, 2007 - 02:43am PT
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Pete - As far as the "wire" hooks. I tested those hooks quite a bit. For a number of days on various climbs. There's no problem with them or any probs getting them to hook into the rings. No need for bigger rings either. I *will* say, however, the rings I was using weren't all deformed, the way the Ti rings do. You can round the end of the hooks a bit and shape it, if you like. However, I didn't see any significant improvement. The width of the hooks is about equivalent to the Ruskie Hooks you had on your Trangos.
As for Demand:
Unfortunately, after making several pairs (prototypes) and testing the hell out of them, and with the research and all I did, I came to the same conclusion as Russ. I'm sure Russ has quite a bigger handle on the big wall market (supply/demand) than any of us. I mean, he's been making his living at this for a while.
Initially, I was pretty excited thinking I could make a small chunk of money with these things. Then, as time went on, I realized there is simply not a market for them. As Russ said, a small group of people excited about them on a forum is one thing. People shelling out their money for them is entirely different. And when you look at the small number of people buying climbing gear, and then realize how much smaller the group of big wall climbers within is, and THEN realize the incredibly smaller number of those that have the funds to spend on Ruskies, or are willing to give them a go, versus the traditional methods, you realize your work will be in vain.
Sure, you'd all make Pete and a small number of other folks extremely happy, but you aren't going down and buying your new Porsche (or even a used Toyota) off of RA sales.
I'm totally willing to help out the "cause", however. I think Moof thought I was simply holding out or maybe being a dick, but seriously it's more like "better things to do" and being too lazy to dig out my notes. I'll dig them out if you like. I'm not sure there's anything revolutionary in them though. Ruskies are Ruskies. The rest is just parts and semantics.
As far as other comments...
Well, Brian is right. They suck on low angle climbing. They seriously limit your reach, thus limiting your speed. They really shine on overhanging stuff however, and the "levering" action makes reaching high/top stepping quite comfortable. Also, to answer Brian's question - Yes, you can hook into the loops of cams, such as Aliens with them, quite easily. You can hook into the slings of other cams, as well. But you better be damn careful as the hooks do get rough edges and can abrade the slings. You can also, however, hook into the aid tree biner, which works quite well.
As far as the possible injuries... Well, dunno. I think you can get hurt with half the crap you use on a wall, so BFD. Go climbing and quit wanking. If you're that concerned, take up an indoor sport.
All of this being said, I finally agree with Ammon - freeing the walls, or what you can of them is it. The next step. It's kinda like chucking your rifle in favor of a bow and arrow for hunting. It's a progression. Needless to say, I haven't done much aid climbing in the last year or so, but rather am preparing for a couple of free (or mostly free) attempts on EC and have been working on the free game.
As far as Ammon's concern about hitting the rings with the hooks... Well, yeah, it's kind of a pain. I used the Ruskies for probably a total of 10+ long days over a period of time and while you *do* get better at it, I don't think you ever get as good (fast) as you can with ladders. The more you use your ladders and the better the ladders you use (read Kate's insightful post above about the Yates - they rock) the more efficient you get with them. You stop having to look down, pull them out to get your feet in them, etc. This never becomes the case with Ruskies. You have to fumble with them a lot. If you're on holiday and taking your time on the wall, then no big deal. If you're trying to go faster or doing a push, they'd only slow you down, tremendously. I couldn't imagine having used them on the couple of sub-day pushes I've done.
Anyway, I guess that sums up my feelings about them, why I decided not to undertake the cause any further, etc...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 17, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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Nefarius said:
"All of this being said, I finally agree with Ammon - freeing the walls, or what you can of them is it. The next step. It's kinda like chucking your rifle in favor of a bow and arrow for hunting. It's a progression. Needless to say, I haven't done much aid climbing in the last year or so, but rather am preparing for a couple of free (or mostly free) attempts on EC and have been working on the free game. "
So to extend the analogy, chucking your bow and arrow for hand-to-hand would be like free soloing long offwidths?
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Dec 17, 2007 - 12:18pm PT
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I’m guilty of not reading any of the thread before I posted. Ha haa, good to hear from you WC.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 17, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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Well Ammon, the title and first post alone are plenty to invoke an immune response... You may be better off having missed most fo it.
I wonder if as a small school boy the Canadian Assassin scratched his manifesto into the bathroom stalls at school (complete with bold scratching).
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 17, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
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"So to extend the analogy, chucking your bow and arrow for hand-to-hand would be like free soloing long offwidths?"
It's been known to happen, Moof. =)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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"Immune response?" Uh dude, nobody responded more than you. Maybe you should delete all your posts?
At least I can climb the Prow... [tee-hee]
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 18, 2007 - 01:08am PT
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I sent the Prow in good style. It was third time's a charm, but I sent. Round one my partner got cold and we bailed. Second attempt I got got fubar'd by a bailing soloist with a "Better Way" cluster f*ck clogging the works (poor dude couldn't even bail at a reasonable pace, you'd be proud), then I got the flue the second day. Really fun to drag a haul bag down while barely holding your lunch down. Third time we sent on time and under budget.
How's that double munter A5 jugging knot work again? The one with magically shortening tails?
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Dec 18, 2007 - 09:40am PT
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very similar to an adjustable russian friction hitch, without the magic tails, which do have both advantages and disadvantages. dammit i've been looking everywhere for another one of those, forgot mine in rich's car before he sped off out west. if anybody bumps into that guy tell him i want it back!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 20, 2007 - 11:50pm PT
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Rev 5:
The double pass buckles I got are perfect. Smaller than the CMI ones, but not wimpy. The cinch are just my personal preference, plenty burly, and great for on the fly adjustment and easy removal.
The wire hook's full 1" opening allowed me to use the thick webbing throughout, while the cliffhanger's hole on rev. 4 forced the thin webbing.
Anyone want a pair? Available in pimp theme as shown, or boring blue and red. Same price, $60, including shipping. You still gotta get your aid trees from Russ (his are 4/5 stars, my interpretation would be 2/5 stars and cost double).
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2007 - 11:57pm PT
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You did a good job Moof.
Not that I want any, but it looks like excellent workmanship.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 21, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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"As far as the possible injuries... Well, dunno. I think you can get hurt with half the crap you use on a wall, so BFD. Go climbing and quit wanking. If you're that concerned, take up an indoor sport."
Yeah Werner. Get back indoors, where you belong! Oh wait, I need a rescue, because I am about to pass out from laughing so hard!
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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So these two guys from Moscow were talking to these four guys from Rostov in Camp 4 in September, saying "Did you notice how they all climb aid the old-fashioned way, with webbing ladders and stuff?!" They sounded really puzzled.
Moof, if I sent you two hooks much like the ones used in the new "russian russian aiders" system shown earlier in the thread (with both horizontal and vertical slots), could you make me a pair of stirrups in normal colors? How much would it cost? Just hypothetically...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 21, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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Paulina,
The hook shown is pretty cheap. If you send me a Trango hook or equivalent that doesn't force me to do extra crazy stuff I'd knock $5 off to account in the change of material costs. These take me about 3-4 hours a pair to make plus about $25 in materials ($5 of hook, $10 of buckles, $10 of webbing). So at $60 a pair I'm asking ~$10/hour for my trouble, which for custom wall gear is pretty darn cheap (if you buy Russ' trees and my cuffs you are still $10 cheaper than the original Trango system).
Also bear in mind that Russ will also do custom stuff, usually prettier than I can, and he has a bartacker and much more experience doing this kinda stuff very fast. You might try him if you want to save a few bucks, but no promises (you might blow the savings bribing him with beers to even take the job, who knows).
Russ,
If you happen to drop into HVCG in the next couple weeks I'd love to give you a beer for the cool stuff you've made for me. I'll be near the space pod with a 90 lb white dog, and a green toyota tundra. Same crew HK hangs with (not sure if HK will be there?).
Werner,
Thanks! I built it, I kinda doubt they will come.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2007 - 01:58am PT
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Paulina, that's hilarious! Nice to meet you. You're back on the east coast now, da?
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2007 - 03:17am PT
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Sorry Moof, didn't notice your original price ($60). Very reasonable, of course. You know, I did ask Russ the same question and got a 'no can do'.
Pete, nice meeting you too. I'm back on the East Coast indeed (after a shorter stint in JTree) but already planning a skiing return to the Sierra. Maybe I should just move to CA.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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Holy frig - it's been eight months since we talked about these things? Since then, I have had the opportunity to use and test two sets of Russian aiders, one made by Moof aka Seann Woolery, and the other by Theron Moses. So here is your Dr. Piton Review.
TRANGO RUSSKIES
As you know, they're not available any more, but they are the standard upon all which are compared. The design is nearly perfect, though the buckles suck and the webbing should be thicker.
One big problem with the Trango design you see below on my left foot is the position and type of buckle used to adjust the size of the footloop. The buckle is kind of "sharp" and can bite into your ankle, plus it can slip. You can see that I have duct taped the livin' bejeepers out of it, to keep it in the right position and to keep it from slipping, as well as to pad it where it rests against my ankle. The buckle is hidden under the blob of duct tape on the outside of my left foot.
The other problem with the Trango design is the chicken loop, which is merely a stretchy nylon strip that wraps around your ankle, and is secured with really crappy "velcro" which is not Velcro brand velcro. So I have to tape it up every morning with duct tape, which is a pain in the ass, and then take the duct tape off at the end of the day.
Note the position of the Trango hook, how it is attached to the cuff, and the triangular design of the footloop. Note especially now the apex of the triangle is pretty much right at the hook. All of this is virtually perfect. It's just that the webbing is kinda skimpy. But it works, hell yeah it works, better than anything else available.
Here's why.
MOOF'S RUSSKIES
Here you see Moof's design on my right leg, with Kong Block-Roll for scale. Incidentally, if you are looking to get one of these superb hauling devices, I will have some in stock in a few weeks with any luck, depending on how fast the Eye-talians are rowing across the Atlantic. [Last time they needed some whipping a la Ben Hur in the galleys] On my left leg is the traditional Trango design, with Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab for scale.
Pros:
I climbed with Moof's Russkies for two days on South Seas on El Cap.
Moof's design features superb craftmanship and excellent sewing, not to mention spiffy colours, even if he did blow my request to have "red" for "right". Left and right Russkies look rather similar, and you really need to make the things of two different colours so you can easily figure out which one goes on which leg.
I like the chicken loop buckle which holds your foot securely in the stirrup without slipping. Note the reinforced footloop with tubular webbing around it to make the footloop sturdier. You can barely see that I have done this on the Trango on my left leg - I have put a hunk of purple 1" tubular webbing around the foot, which is barely visible on the outside.
The length adjustment buckle is solid and easy to adjust. The cuff is pretty good, too, with a buckle round the back of your calf that you can cinch tight, and which holds under tension after cinching. Even the "double-width" hook is fine, and fits with no problem into Russ' titanium ring aid-trees.
Cons:
Unfortunately, Moof's design is flawed in two ways, which I couldn't actually understand until I had used them a couple days to figure out the problems.
The first problem has to do with the shape of the foot stirrup. Remember how engineering students build bridges out of glue and popsicle sticks, which are then tested to failure? The guys who build their bridges out of triangles have the strongest designs. The guys who build their bridges out of circles, straight lines and squares have weaker designs.
Imagine building a structure out of tinker toys or Mecanno, or even playing cards or cardboard and a bit of Scotch tape. If you build using triangles, your structures will bear weight. If you try to use squares, your structure will start to lean. Straight lines and circles won't work, either.
The problem with Moof's design is that it uses a circle round your foot, and then from it a straight line of webbing up to your cuff. The circle squeezes your foot, and this becomes rather painful after a short time. Notice how the Trango design uses a triangle - not only does this not pinch your foot painfully, but it gives you much better leverage as you "stand tall in the saddle". The leverage idea is what makes Russkies superior to traditional aiders when you're on steep ground, and you get better top-stepping leverage off of the triangle of the Trango than off of the circle and straight line of Moof's.
The second problem is that the distance from the bottom of your foot to the cuff is too long. See where the Trango cuff - and hence the hook - sits on my calf? That is the precise position it needs to be. Any lower and it won't work as it will slip off your calf, and any higher and you are losing height. Moof's design sits about a half- to three-quarters-of-an-inch too high. This is because the buckle and stitching is in the way - I have cinched it as tight as it can go, but the hook still sits too high on my leg. So I'm losing precious height with each step.
Design flaws aside, Moof's cuffs do work. If he addresses these two issues - basically by copying the Trango design - he will have a bitchin' set of very cost-effective cuffs, which I can then recommend.
THERON'S RUSSKIES
Below you can see one of Theron Moses' Russkies on my right foot, and the same Trango Russkie on my left. I used Theron's Russkies for a day on Born Under A Bad Sign on El Cap. As for the photos, it took several takes to get them right, and Squeeshy the Ee-WAH-nah is getting a bit bored.
Pros:
Moses has produced for me a pair of superbly made Russkies, which really do the job well. Particularly impressive is the hook. Did you make it yourself, Theron? If so, what material did you use? If knott, where did you get 'em?
The cuffs are truly CUSH, very well padded and comfortable. You can see that the design uses a triangle footloop, like the Trangos, which is comfortable to use and doesn't pinch your foot. Most importantly it gives your foot the stability you need.
I could top-step like a Mo-fo in these things, and they work almost as well as the Trangos, for the reasons outlined below. But I still finished both South Seas and BUBS in my old Trangos.
Cons:
Actually, quite a few, but they are all fairly minor and easily fixed.
The first thing you need to know [and again, I didn't figure this out til I actually took these pictures!] is that the triangular footloop is NOT SYMMETRIC. In fact, you can see that it is slightly off-kilter. The inside side of the triangle is vertical, running from your instep straight up in plumb to the hook. The outside side of the triangle comes across the top of your foot to the hook. Get it?
Theron's design is symmetrical as you can see by the position of his chicken loop, which I have had to twist all askew in order to properly orient the triangle of the footloop. So he needs to reposition the chicken loop to account for this. I think the chicken loop needs to be burlier, too, with a larger and more secure Velcro-brand point of attachment.
Maybe Theron should experiment with a chicken loop and buckle design like Moof's? That might *really* be the ticket, dude.
Like Moof's design, the buckle is in the way. What this means is that the apex of the triangle of the footloop is too low - it needs to be directly beneath the hook like the Trango, and the closer to the hook this apex can be, the better. It would be possible to use tighter stitching to raise the Trango triangle apex another half-inch, which would really help.
Accordingly, I think the buckle on Theron's design needs to be moved from the top of the triangle over to the outside of the triangle, the same as the Trango design. He can then shorten the stitching between the top of the apex and the hook, to get a super-stable platform.
Here's another look. You can see how crappy the buckle across the back of my calf is on the Trangos, and how I have to double it back on itself to prevent it from slipping. As for my partners, when Wee-Wee joins in, those two really get into trouble. Poor Squeeshy was pretty hung over the next morning.
Theron's buckle across the back of the calf is just visible on the outside, and you can see it's the same buckle as he used on the triangle footloop. This buckle needs to be changed. You need to use the kind of buckle that you can cinch down under tension - it's impossible to get Theron's buckle tight enough. Just make sure it's a buckle that won't slip.
Even though Theron's calf cuff is cush, I was never able to crank it tight enough to give me the top-stepping leverage you need.
As for buckles which don't slip, I think an excellent idea for both Moof and Theron to integrate into their designs would be a Velcro closure on the tail end of the strap around the back of the calf. This would prevent it from flapping around, and also help secure it in addition to the buckle. Know what I mean, Vern?
Theron needs to put something easily visible and red on the right Russkie so you can tell at a glance which foot the thing goes on.
These minor design flaws aside, Theron's design is Emphatically The Sh|t, and I can't wait to try the new design. Theron - if your Russkies have not yet been mailed back to you, please let me know, and I will light a fire under my Yosemite Equipment Manager's ass.
AID TREE THOUGHTS
Theron also supplied me with some Aid-Trees, which he painstakingly and lovingly made using steel rappel rings. Unfortunately, they are rather bulky, klunky and heavy when compared to Russ' Aid-Trees which he made from the titanium rings he got from Trango.
If you plan on using Russian Aiders, you had best git yerself some of these Aid Trees from Russ while the gittin' is good.
Furthermore, and I have written of this in the past, eh? - Aid Trees which have paired rings like the traditional Trango Design are obsolete! Thanks to the erstwhile Bruce Bindner aka Brutus for this tip - where the hell is he these days, anyway? What needs to be made is the new Pro Model Aid Trees, which will consist of two pairs of Aid Trees on each daisy, each tree with only a single ring per step. Two pairs of trees per daisy are far more easy to use than one Aid Tree with twin ring pairs.
So important is using two pairs of Aid Trees, that this is what I now do. My Trango Aid Trees have pretty much died, and I now use four of Russ' Aid Trees, which are something of an overkill due to the redundant rings. But it works.
Right then, lads - above are your blueprints for success. You don't need to go back to the drawing board, your Wall Doctor has done it for you [thus sparing you the bother]. Get yer sewin' goin', and we'll start top-steppin' in a few weeks, eh?
Cheers and beers,
Dr. Piton
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Aug 18, 2008 - 08:19pm PT
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The hooks are made from unobtainium.
More later.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Bump - await detailed response from Moof and Theron, and also anyone else who has used their designs. Cheers.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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Bump to Theron and moof.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 10, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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Are they ever gonna be sold again????
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 11, 2008 - 12:38am PT
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If Theron doesn't come through, I'll fire up for another batch of my Ghetto cuffs this winter. But if he's got some cool sh#t coming, I can't wait to buy a pair for myself! Cool beans!
Anyone want to buy a used industrial sewing machine?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 11, 2008 - 12:58am PT
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Here is what I'm using for aid trees these days. Rings are SMC aluminum rap rings, so they are rigid and light (and don't ovalized like Russ's did on me):
Cost is prohibitive to make these, as the rings along run me about $60 (18 rings). These are ala the "pro russian aiders" that Pete drones on about. I added the extra bit of tacking below the ring to encourage the rings to stick straight out, which indeed makes hooking a lot easier in cramped spaces. There are rubber inserts similar to some quickdraws to keep the rings from simply spinning and drooping. If I had them to do again I'd orient all the rings on the same side, so that they'd stick out from the wall, and not stick out to either side. YMMV.
Just a reminder, there are instructions with pictures to make your own Ghetto aid cuffs written up over at bigwalls.com. The aid trees really should not necessitate plans. Frankly, for the price, get Russ's aid trees. They work plenty well, and at $25 a pieces they are a steal.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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Hey y'all,
Just got down off the wall, and wanted to tell you about Theron's awesome Russian Aider cuffs - Holy Moses, are they fantastic!
I will take some pictures of them, to show you what a superb design they are, and how well they work. A couple small fine tunings, and they will be the best ever made.
Truly superb craftsmanship from Theron Moses - just like everything he makes!
Cheers,
Pete
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 14, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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So what's the ETA on these bad boys? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jun 14, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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As an aside to the RA story here... the rings for the Aid Trees are in limited supply. These are the titanium rings from Trango. When they are gone, FISH will be making no more trees. I don't really know how many sets are left... but it is not a whole heck of a lot. So, if you want trees, order up sooner rather than later.
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Jun 14, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Russ, why did you decide to not make the trees anymore, and to never make the (Russian) aiders?
Btw, I use the trees I bought from you a while ago and love them.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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Russ, why did you decide to not make the trees anymore, and to never make the (Russian) aiders?
Not making the trees because I'm going to run out of rings and there is too little interest to try and source new rings or reinvent the wheel.
Never made the cuffs because the Russian guys wanted way too much for the hooks, and the market was too small for me have hooks made. I've always contended that there was about a dozen guys in the US interested in these.... the market is just too small even for a small market guy like me.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Russ' trees and Moses' cuffs are the bomb! Theron - Leo was quite impressed and wants to get a pair off you, eh?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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The logarithmic design of the aid trees is interesting. I can't tell if there are pairs of rings or single rings. The Better Way is to hang two trees from each aider, each having only a single ring. This will be the way of the future.
Unfortunately, this design is very poor:
If you refer to my comments regarding Moof's first design, the problem with this design is that it is constructed of circles and lines, instead of a triangle. You don't get the stability you get with a proper triangular design, and more significantly, the circle will squish the snot out of your foot.
Moof has since amended his design to something that should work OK, although I have yet to try it for the simple reason that Theron's Holy Moses Russian Aider cuffs are so good! But it might not be a bad idea to grab some of those Russian aid trees, as Russ has already indicated his supply is finite. I found that the stitching and rings on the Trango aid trees started to blow out after two or three hundred pitches, so if you plan to use them a lot, a backup set might be in order.
Cheers for the beta, Adnix!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:45am PT
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Love that Russkie aid vest.
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mkporwit
Mountain climber
Bellevue, WA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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So if Theron's russian aider cuffs are so awesome, where can someone get a set? I seem to only be able to find his hangers and pitons when I go looking...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Got yur Russkie funk right here, start yur bidding!
The ever popular Mini Jug
The whole pirogi set...
And straight from the Gulag...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:52am PT
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Note the ladders with logarithmic rings! Superb design!
Indeed, the variable ring spacing looks very ergonomic, and superior. The only thing better would be to have adjustable rings on mini-jumars, or something, to provide a continuous range of ring placement.
As an inane aside, there is a deep groove in my brain (etched by too many math classes) that leads me to ask:
Isn't that discrete ring spacing more like a Fibonacci series? Which, in the limit, does conform to a continuous logarithmic function?
And straight from the Gulag...
I've always wondered how those Gulag big wall climbers got over their big walls . . . nice rig.
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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Aug 12, 2009 - 08:59am PT
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Sooo...after reading this thread I know have a raging curious to try this out even though I am beyond a total big wall n00b...more than likely I will get regular aid ladders as well...but hey if the price is right I'd be more than willing to pick up a pair of these...
Point me in the right direction!
Thanks
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powderrush
Mountain climber
Back of My Truck, CA
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Aug 12, 2009 - 09:01am PT
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whoops...was logged in as my buddy/coworker...it was I not jfailing...who was asking!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2009 - 09:18am PT
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"Point me in the right direction!"
Russ = Fish for aid trees, and Theron Moses for cuffs. You might have to use a pointy stick on Moses, but his design is superb.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 12, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Mike pointed out the mixed use of one or two cuffs with a set of alpine ladders (from Fish). You can just walk up the bottom could steps, and depending on the steepness start hooking from third step. You retain the ease of going free (hook a quick draw, stow the aider/daisy, and just step up free up entanglements). It's a bit more bulky in flares, and a but more hassle when jugging, but it overall is a nice variation.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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Kate uses a hybrid system of Russkies and regular aiders. Maybe she can talk about it a bit.
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malabarista
Trad climber
PA, then AZ, then CO, Now CA, soon OR
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May 11, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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I just bought Tea's Russkies and can hardly wait to try them out. Will I be converted? Will my traditional aid style be a thing of the past? I'm intrigued...
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mh001
Mountain climber
Beijing, China
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Sep 22, 2013 - 09:25am PT
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Has anyone tried to combine the Russian aider cuffs with adjustable aiders? By that I mean connecting the webbing part of adjustable aiders to the cuffs, probably to the jugging loops by the side of the hooks, hence forgoing the need of the Russian aider tree and the hooks, and of course the cuff part of the adjustable aiders.
I think because the point where the aider is connected to the cuff has degree of freedom (to rotate) the "camming action" which Russian aiders provide when top-stepping is preserved.
If this works it would make the Russian aiders much less fiddly to use. And easier to make. And make the adjustable aiders not just only good for following?
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JMC
climber
the land of milk and honey
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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There's a pair up on the ebay auction block now - Trango Russian aiders.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 24, 2013 - 09:54am PT
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That Ebay set sold for $109.99 already. What were the Trango sets going for when new?
Wasn't Fish giving them away with every purchase of a cow bag? :-)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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Please use this thread instead!
Cheers, eh?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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OK, to answer your questions from the previous thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2540251&tn=0
and to provide a quick recap:
The Russian Aider System is something where you attach a stirrup to your leg each day when aid climbing. You put the stirrup on in the morning, and you take it off at night. It has a hook that sits just below your knee, that you clip into Russ' excellent Aid Trees.
They are not unsafe - any considerations that the very rounded hook will somehow catch during a fall, or stab you, are unfounded.
I wouldn't call them a gimmick, nor are they "full of flaws". If they were, I could not have climbed so many hard aid routes on El Cap using them.
Certainly they did not become as popular as I predicted they would. This is partially because a lot of people don't like them, or understand them, but mostly because there is no available source of cuffs. There may be a source of cuffs over in Russia these days, but they are probably expensive.
Craig's buddy Brutus of Wyde aka Bruce Bindner put me onto these things. He used them on an early ascent of Tempest, and loved them so much - and knew that I would too - that he mailed me his only pair. At the time, you could still buy the setup from Trango, but Trango no longer makes them. I believe Russ bought all the titanium rings, and sewed them up into the Aid Trees you see here. Russ' aid trees are really good, incidentally - I use them:
So here are a quick list of the advantages and disadvantages.
ADVANTAGES:
Primary advantage is climbing steep aid. Russian Aiders give you a torquing moment between your ankle and your knee, meaning that it is easy to stand tall on overhanging rock
If you have ever worn downhill skis and boots, you will know that with the high-top ski boots clipped into your bindings, you can sit down on the back of your skis, and then stand up again "no handed" by torquing on the ski boots and the back of the skis. This is the precise advantage you gain on steep aid with Russkies - your legs can do the work instead of your stomach muscles
If you are going to spend a lot of time aid climbing on hard aid on steep rock, you really need to try these things, if you can find them and have the opportunity
DISADVANTAGES:
More numerous disadvantages, but to this wall rat, the advantages FAR outweigh the disadvantages
The gear is hard to find. Russ makes great aid trees [the things with the rings] but the cuffs plus hooks are hard to come by. May be an expensive source in Russia. A few guys here have made them up, though. You need to be clever and be good with a sewing machine
They are no good on easy aid. This is because you are climbing primarily cracks that are less than vertical. If you are climbing a less-than-vertical C1 crack on Russian Aiders, the aid rings WILL get stuck in the crack below you. This is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact
For the reason above, a few n00bs here tried Russians, and rejected them, because they are annoying on easy aid. But get into the steep A3-A4 range, and you are sure to love them
This is the reason they are hard to find - the market is too small. These things are not going to benefit people doing the NBD routes. You really need to get into the NTB to PDH ratings to take advantage of them
If you are a speed climber, you can climb faster with regular aiders. Russkies give you the advantage on steep-hard aid, where you have to hang around a long time fiddle-fukking with tricky placements
-They really suck if you have to bust a free move, because the stirrup sits under the midstep of your foot. It is certainly best to remove the stirrup if you have to bust some free moves, because if you stand on it by accident, you could find yourself airborne!
Kate uses one Russkie and one standard aider on each adjustable daisy. She has a very clever but expensive system of adjustables using a full strength hunk of skinny mountaineering cord, and an Ushba lightweight titanium hauling device. Full strength, sweet, smoooth, but expensive!
MYTHS:
That they are unsafe - they're not
That the hook will catch when you fall - it won't, it's too small
That the hook will gore you - impossible, as it is rounded
Ultimately, though - "each to his own". I happen to believe that Russian Aiders are the Better Way on steep aid, but the Better Way is whatever works best for you.
Brutus told me Donini had used the things down in Patagonia. Jim - I would like to hear more of this.
Cheers,
Pete aka Dr. Piton
Still using Russkies exclusively
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks, Pete. Good analysis as always.
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