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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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My aiders are collecting dust; I am a free climber now. I can think of nothing that is as exciting and as exhilarating as cranking your way up a virgin section of stone to what you think will be a decent stance, only to find that you had better slap that quarter-incher in damn quick ‘cause that decent stance is really a jingus, calf-burning sloper! THIS is rock climbing at its best (or so I currently think)!
Do you get the bolt placed in the nick of time? Or do your calves sketch out, defying the best of your mental abilities and sending you on a -200 grit friction test? Will you stab yourself with your super-sharp drill bit or konk yourself with your mighty hammer in mid-flight (or mid-tumble…)? Got yer helmet on?
Is ground-up stance drilling with a hand drill dead, a lost art? Will rap-bolting monopolize the future? Have we climbers lost sight of the means by which we establish a route with all focus directed towards the end product? Does the path towards a quality route matter anymore?
What may be a jingus stance to me may be a ledge to others. Who are the all-time kings of stance drilling? Who are the ones who have defined the term – the ones who we would call BAD ASS? Higgins? Others? Who are the ones who keep the adventure alive today? Got any good stance drilling episodes that you would like to share? The real deal – let’s hear it!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Minerals wrote:
"Who are the all-time kings of stance drilling? Who are the ones who have defined the term – the ones who we would call BAD ASS? Higgins? Others?"
No list will ever be complete without Jack Holmgren. Bad ass and bold. Dogmatic as hell about it too. Yeah, and Higgins for sure.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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I really don't know who was willing to withstand the most pain to get a bolt in, but I have a few nominations from back in the day.
Ron Carson - go do Skid Row at Dome Rock and just try to imagine putting that 3rd bolt in with NO footholds and only one edge to hold onto while also holding the drill bit. Incredible!!!
Dave Houser - one of the world's fastest on-stance bolter's. We once watched him put a 1 1/4" x 1/4" bolt in, in less than 5 minutes. He claimed that was all the time he could stand/hang there.
Kris Solem - has hooked on smaller edges than anyone else in history. Made a special aluminum hook with no 'hook' just a snout to hang on the tiniest holds without pulling them off (at least until you tried to climb on them).
Of course the real trick is to drill a 1/4" deep hole and hook that while drilling the real hole so that the hanger will hide the hooking hole.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I dun some of dat shite.
Very creative stuff.
I like Ament's report of stabilising his forearm between 2 knobs while drilling on too steep to drill rock in the Flatirons on a route called Soarks.
From a thread titled "A Very Ament's Slab":
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=460604&msg=480368#msg480368
"We forgot the hammer, so I placed a bolt using a stone from the scree slope. I placed the bolt on an overhanging wall, held on by my forearm jammed between two small protrusions of rock. I could free a couple of fingers of that jammed forearm to hold the drill and was able to let go with my right hand to hammer with the rock. I dropped the rock once or twice, and Higgins would tie another onto the rope that I would have to haul up. That was a feat."
-Pat Ament
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Stance drilling is not dead! With today's carbide-tipped bits you can drill big holes fast. This past summer in Tuolumne, with a sharp bit, I could drill a 3/8"x2" hole in 10 minutes from stance.
YMMV.
I say go for it! If you know what you are doing when you put up first ascents it doesn't matter if you do it ground up or on rappel so why not go for the once-only experience of drilling on lead. Those who bolt from rappel are really missing out on one of the truly unique experiences in climbing.
Bruce
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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So when are we gonna hear some details about your 14 new routes in TM?
Grades?
Locations?
Pics?
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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in the old days of tuolumne, and just before the bosch bulldog took over, there were a few of us that took stance drilling to the next level. scott burke was good, so was bachar, even al dude was ok, and i did some wicked stances like royal flush on medlicott, and the unreapeated coup de gras on fairview. but the best was kurt "the kid" smith, who at 120 pounds upon his tuolumne debut, could stand and drill where even bachar couldn´t on one of the far right medlicott routes, maybe THE KID. steve schneider
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Minerals and Greg, showing us how it's done:
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Drilling on lead from stances is not a lost art, a oddity, or a strange event;....it's a weekly activity......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Shuddup Todd.
Stance drillin' is for p#ssies!
Peace out, my nigaaa.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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" The Beauty of It "....as Shipoopi and I used to refer to stancing. I was mentored by the best :
The Schneiderator 12c R, is to my knowledge the hardest stanced route in Yosemite! I drilled the first bolt - a 30 minute affair - 40 ft up - hideous stance under a roof. Used my head to push against roof in order to free up both hands. Steve's was even worse - 45 minutes and a 40 footer that I held on a waist belay! 4 more balancing act bolts over 2 days and the redpoint awaited.
Other stance highlights :
Kurt Smith on Grace Under Pressure 12a R/X
Bachar on Johnny Rock,One Armed Bandit, Body and Soul and The Believer
Stevie and Burke on the aforementioned Coup de Gras - what a line !!
Caunt & Settlemier on Omega Race and Murder by Numbers
My personal best - Testify on the Nazgul Wall -9 grueling screwtop shorties over 2 days
The majority of these routes are unrepeated !?!?
[url=http://imageshack.us]{{img}}h~~p://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9414/dscf1090gu2wr2.jpg[/img][/url]
A little desert action
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Miwok
climber
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Find Hook from stance.
Tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap....
Placing bolt
smackin in a tied off and moving on..
Too many hook moves to a bolt (so scared I almost shook myself off the hook).
edit - I use to stance but now I'm to old to hang out that long on the toes.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nice pics folks!
aldude, that's quite the list of sick ground-up routes. But - just out of curiosity - are the particular drill stances that nasty? Seems like nasty drill stances and the hardest boldest routes would often not go together - once the runout got huge then it'd be too risky to try a super dicey stance.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Hand drilling on the lead from stances aint' all that fun;...it's just another bad habit....(I wouldn't call it a lost art either;.....it's alive and well at many crags.....)
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Aldude: Thanks for posting up. Excellent reporting. Lost arts are always inspirational, and make one re-assess current values.
Erik
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Stance drilling is not dead if you keep it alive...
but beware because those routes will become museum climbs!
I care not what level of obscurity my routes have fallen into because i will never lose those memories and moments of fear and energy of getting that bolt in...
my biggest scare on the lead was second and only other bolt on "path of the pastor" @ whales back..sliding off the sloper stance 40' off the last bolt and 70 off the deck...
there were a lot of folks pushing it in the 80's and the rap bolting took the wind out of our sails but the memories and routes are still there...
ks
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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also go check out "general dynamics" to the right of the first pitch of the nose. Ducey taught me how to drill off a shitty copperhead on that one.. 5.13 as well so go get em gym rats!
just to the left is unfinished multi pitch unpinned scarred start to the nose- "duty now for the future"
ks
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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I've probably told this story before, but here it is again
(pardon the rambling...)
Toughest stance drilling story:
After CC3, Rusty Reno and I climbed the FA of the Deuceldyke (an unlikely looking 5.8) just to the right of Snake Dike, it became obvious that the dykes on Half Dome represented incredible potential.
The incredible twin dykes over on the left side of the South Face of Half Dome were Cole's vision, I could see that it was going to be a major effort, and, as I was gearing up for another big wall project of my own, I declined the invitation to join their team initially.
After some untold days, perhaps a week or so, Rusty and Cole had established 10 pitches of the right dyke (later to be named the Autobahn). They had been stopped where the dyke ended and an imposing roof loomed, and had made several attempts to climb around the roof to both to the left and the right. Finally, Rusty had to leave (he had a real job), and Cole recruited me to help finish the final pitches of the climb.
After a stellar morning swinging leads on the first 10 pitches,it was my lead, and Cole suggested the line to the left of the roof was the most likely candidate for success. I looked at it, and it looked like it would be an unaesthetic wandering finish to an otherwise spectacular direct line.
I looked up at the roof, and imagined a dark splotch above the roof as a bomber chickenhead. Cole was skeptical. After climbing tenuous moves above the belay, with one bolt for protection, a series of difficult undercling moves led me to the lip. The blotch was just that, a (blank) blotch, but I discovered an edge on the lip of the roof that if any of you are familiar with the Bates Problem on Columbia Boulder (B1), reminded me of a mini-version of that small toe hold which requires a semi-mantle move on that problem. The hold was about the width of a dime, and about the same in size (imagine a dime pasted on the wall, in other words).
Now, having the Bates Problem so wired that I could do it in a pair of Cole's original five-tennies was just the muscle memory I needed for this move. From the tenuous undercling, I put my foot on the dime edge, and mantle up with everything I had. The last bolt was only eight feet below, but the tumble that would have resulted from falling off a mantle move like this would have been grim because of the way the rope ran, it would have tripped me up and sent me backwards over the roof (and only wimps wore helmets in those days).
As I mantled up with all my might, I blindly reached up hoping for some sort of help from above, and miraculously, I found a small one-finger sidecling indent, just enough to give me the balance I need to complete the one-legged mantle. But that hold became useless once I was standing, and there were no other holds of any kind anywhere.
Although the remaining moves (which turned out to be 5.10a or so) to finish the pitch looked easy (the angle backed off a bit), I knew I needed a bolt to protect them. With only my right foot on the dime edge in this super-balancy position, I somehow managed to extract the drill out of my bag, then in ultra slow motion, grab the hammer, I started the bolt. I could only drill for a few moments before I had to slow-mo lower the drill, lower the hammer, and regain my balance, only to repeat the process about a gazilion times before I had enough hole drilled that I could actually count on the drill as a (extremely tenuous) point of balance. My right foot was all that was supporting me, and I was probably on that micro-hold about a half hour drilling that 1/4" 1 1/4" deep bolt (normally I could drill the same bolt in about 2 minutes). To actually place the bolt was another exercise in slow-mo dynamics to get the bolt, line it up with the hole, grab the hammer, and pound it in. By that time my right foot was burning in agony (as it had been within minutes of arriving at the spot).
We rated that pitch 5.11+ but it soon was considered solid 12a .
Definitely made all my other stance bolts seem easy in comparison!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Have any of you guys ever skidded onto your drill and managed to get back on stance?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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sic story Duece4...
got any pics from that ascent?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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I remember a few really desperate struggles to get in the bolts...
On Hairline, we were drilling 1/4 inch holes with the old rawl 3-edge bits. In the middle of the 5.9 moves it took us about 45 minutes to get each hole drilled.
On Temple Crag, (Planaria,) I had to use the knuckles of my drill-handle hand to undercling a knob to keep from pitching off backwards. Fortunately, by that time we had carbide tip bits, so the hole went in pretty quick.
Good pics! I have a few somewheres, but don't remember where.
Drilled three holes from stance on Friday. 3/8", but BIG stances.
Funny how a good, beefy bolt can go in 10 minutes or so at a casual pace when sitting or standing comfortable, but a smaller hole can take forever if ya have to keep adjusting your balance and repositioning your left foot on that tiny edge so as to not fall.
Brutus
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Yo, Kid-
no pics.
At the time, of course, you and Schnieder were known to be the true masters of stance drilling. Burning Down the House comes to mind.
heh, I remember walking around the base of El Cap and joining you guys when you were doing General Dynamics. Shitty coperhead? That thing was A1!!
cheers
ps Melissa, generally back in the day, you wouldn't really want to put too much weight on a 1/4" drill, known to snap fairly easily when loaded sideways depending on the brand. But generally there's a little help in the balance department when it's over 1/4" deep in the hole (before that, it would probably pop out if you put too much weight on it, say, in the case of a "slide").
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Of course, you wouldn't _want_ to slip onto the drill, but I thought someone might have a good story of getting away w/ it in a really precarious position.
I guess the other side of that question would be interesting too...Anyone ever take the feared tumbler halfway through a hole?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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maybe Brooks or Kelly can speak to this, but isn't there a story of Pinns and the cut away feet and hanging from a hand drill and people yelling to jump because they were going to break the bit?
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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OK Lead Stance Hardman Goes to Greg Mayer(SP) and also Mike Tupper(both .13's), but speed bolting goes back to my bro Minerals, He's ok with a hammer on a construction job but with a bolt, or a pin he's a Phucking madman....
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Todd,
Captions my friend... Captions.... :)
What tower is that?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey Mark, Minerals is way fast with those 1/4", but I remember Lynnea saying that her dad (Jerry Anderson) could hand drill faster than anyone - I think she said five 3/8" bolts in 23 minutes in granite, if I remember correctly. My fastest - 6 minutes for a 3/8 x 2.25" in Tuolumne (great stance but I thought one of the foothold knobs might break), 5-6 minutes for a 1/2 x 3" in Red Rocks (soft rock last pitch of Levitation 29).
Nothing better than climbing a new route with the bolt kit and hammer hanging off you - and then not having to use it!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Years ago, I actually had to take spring classes at UC Davis so we were looking for weekday climbing adventures. My buddies and I decided to climb the face of Monticello Dam, the dam that holds back Lake Berryessa. No cracks for gear so we had to drill bolts into the concrete of the dam.
Most of the bolts were very difficult to drill, but the one after the crux proved to be the hardest. I made the 5.10 moves to the miniscule stance and commenced the ritual that those who have drilled from sketchy stances know so well.
First, you see if you can hold the hammer then you put it back. Next you see if you can hold the drill then you put it back. Lastly, you see if you can hold both the hammer and the drill and if that works, then you start tapping. The force of the tapping is related to both the quality of the stance and the strength of your nerves!
Anyway, I only had a foothold with my left foot, my right foot just hung uselessly on the slab. After only about a minute of drilling I got such bad sewing-machine leg in my left leg that I just shook off the foothold and commenced to take a 30-foot whipper. More pissed than hurt I stormed back up to the stance and put the bolt in. The ball of my left foot hurt for over a month from standing on that stance.
Bruce
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Greg Barnes
climber
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So now we know why you're allowed to climb on dams in Europe, but not in California...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Brad...the sandstone ones are.....One with the young lady drilling is in Arches....on some arch on some jump across deal........and the one with the Gumby is on the summit of the Pope near Many Farms/Round Rock....I think that tower just recieved it's 2nd ascent....25 years after the first ascent!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Actually, there is a funny story about our dam climb. I used to do a lot of buildering at UC Davis and got caught a few times, so much so that the dean of the university summoned me to his office. He said he just couldn't expel a straight-A student and he knew that I wouldn't quit climbing so he let me pick one building that I could climb on without being hassled (Kleiber Hall).
Anyway, during our dam climb, some workers spotted us from above and yelled at us to wait there while they came down to bust us. We had taken a bunch of huge leader falls on the top bolt and just as I was about to rap off of it I decided to see how good it was. It just pulled it out with my fingers!
I placed a new bolt in world record time, rapped off and we split before we could be busted. Or so we thought! About four days later I got a call from the dean saying that the people up at the Monticello Dam had seen some people climbing the face and thought they might be UC Davis students. He called me to tell me that he had negotiated a truce of sorts that if we went up and removed all the bolts they wouldn't prosecute us.
Well, we went back and removed the bolts, well almost all the bolts, but that my friends is another story.......
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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"dam" stance bolters! when will they ever learn? :-)
Bruce drilling 3/8" on lead in Tuolumne this past August
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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cheating with a hook back in the day, at least I top stepped it ;)
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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This summer, I went out to Hammer Dome with Johnny Rock, Lucho, and Powder Dan. We climbed Shadow of Doubt then stared at the other Hammer Dome routes. In the book they look good: hard 12+ sport routes. But shaking hand with the routes was another story. Caunt and Stetimier (Spelling?) must have been smoking some serious rock. My toes screamed just gazin' at the bolts.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
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Wow, this thread actually went somewhere! Cool. Great pics too!
I am surprised to hear some of you mention that the introduction of carbide-tipped drill bits made your drilling time shorter. It seems quite the opposite to me. Chisel-tipped high-speed steel (HSS) bits (standard hardware store bit modified on a grinder) drill at least twice as fast as an SDS bit, in both 17/64” (oversized 1/4”) and 25/64” (oversized 3/8”). I finally convinced Greg of this earlier this year when he borrowed my drill. The only thing that I would use an SDS bit for is to drill out a 1/4” hole to 3/8” in order to replace a 1/4” bolt. Some say that they like to sharpen SDS bits with a diamond wheel or a “green wheel” (silicon carbide grinding wheel) to reduce drilling time but I haven’t had the greatest luck with this modification. And, once the carbide tip explodes (as it inevitably will sooner or later) you are left with nothing more than a piece of scrap metal. With HSS, you simply re-sharpen the tip, either on a grinder at home, or on the rock (granitic) while on lead. Presto!
The best drill that I have seen for hand drilling is the Hurricane Hand Drill, designed by John Middendorf. The collet system allows you to use any type/size straight-shank bit (provided that you have the correct size collet), something that you can’t do with all of the ‘SDS only’ drills out there. It is quite versatile. The only problem is that the Hurricane drill is no longer made. Theron…???
Yeah, MisterE… that must be the best stance that I have ever drilled from… George and Lucho in the background and Greg’s shoes… What a season!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The main problem I had with drilling 3/8" with HSS drills (such as the old 5.10 bits) was that they did not have any "margin". That is, the tip diameter was the same as the shaft diameter. This created a problem with the shaft binding when the hole got to a certain depth.
With the carbide tip bits, the tip diameter is larger than the shaft diameter, so the binding problem is solved.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Minerals,
interesting comments. As for SDS bits, the ones I use come with a chisel tip so the shape of the bit for drilling is not an issue. Also, I have hand-drilled over 300 holes with SDS bits and have never had the carbide insert come out of the tip. And, the SDS bits stay sharp longer than metal bits.
Clearly, everybody has their favorites, but I just don't see all the supposed disadvantages of the SDS bits. Maybe it has something to do with the specific manufacturer of SDS bits that are being used.
Bruce
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
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Clint-
Yes, binding can be a problem with the larger size (3/8”) HSS bits although with a freshly sharpened bit, this problem is minimal. As the bit becomes dull, binding increases. Binding also increases if the bit is initially sharpened to an angle that is too small (i.e. the bit is too sharp). If you keep your bits sharp or swap for a fresh one after two or three holes, you will have few binding problems. If you continue to drill multiple holes with a dull HSS bit, you will surely be cussing for longer than you would like, as you already know.
Bruce-
I think we are talking about the same type of SDS bits. You have never had an SDS tip explode??? Really? Jeeze, I destroy unmodified SDS bits on a regular basis and then have to throw them away. Do you swing a very light hammer? Whenever I have to drill with an SDS bit, it seems like torture because it takes so darn long to drill the hole – it’s just too inefficient for me.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I have only chipped one side of a carbide tip on a 3/8" SDS bit, and it was when enlarging a 1/4" hole on Liberty Crack. I was still able to finish the hole. The SDS bits I use are made by Powers. I use a fairly old Chouinard Yosemite hammer (pre carabiner hole).
Usually I am drilling on aid at Pinnacles or from an easy stance, or on Jumars when replacing. So avoiding bit changes and sharpening makes SDS a good choice. If I was drilling from tough stances I would definitely look into something which drilled faster. Are there any short 3/8" HSS bits which are SDS compatible?
Other options could be trying bits with different tip geometry for the carbide insert:
Have you tried any of these?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Carbide tips disintegrate all the time, if you hit really hard in 10-15 bolts, if you hit light and frequently then the tip may never disintegrate (the side flanges of the tip will wear down first). Typically they blow apart in around 30-40 holes in granite if you hit medium hard. Minerals uses a heavy hammer and hits pretty hard.
Pinnacles doesn't count, you can drill indefinitely with the same bit and have zero wear on the bit.
The HSS bits do drill faster especially for 1/4", but SDS have some big advantages. Much tougher and long lasting, less likely to disintegrate, the flanged tip with no binding, and quick & fast switching of bits in a lightweight Petzl drill. And the bits are strong enough to yard on halfway through a hole without snapping.
I plan to try the HSS bits with my old Hurricane, but even then I'll have a SDS drill with me (I always bring 2 drills on lead anyway, one 1/4" and one 3/8").
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kevin,
Thanks for the lowdown on the Rockhard bits. That is a bummer about the downgrade in materials used.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think drilling styles is pertinent to this discussion. If you look at how a power hammer drill works, it does does a lot of light tapping as opposed to a few hard hits. Maybe there is some sort of limitation of the drill so that it can't do hard hits, but it seems to drill a hole pretty efficiently.
It would be great to do some sort of test to see what drilling style(few hard hits versus lots of light hits) works the best.
Bruce
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Its been really fun reading this thread. I'd love an opinion from you guys about I have a project in mind. There is a granitic dike that may or may not be good for free climbing. If it goes, it'll be brilliant and would link up a 3 or 4-pitch line with three pitches leading to another two or three pitch line put up a while back.
With that in mind, I could:
a) TR (with moderate difficulty to set up) part of it to see if its free-able, clean and scrub it then proceed.
b) aid it with lots of hooking between free stances where I could hand drill bolts but maybe get shut down on a steep blank 10' section.
or c) if it does not look free-able, leave it as clean as possible with rivets, bashies etc. for future folks to try and climb. (Disclaimer: I'm a soft-man free climber and have little aid experience)
The problem is that c has the least impact but creates a time bomb and significant safety issues for later.
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Ω
climber
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JUST LEAVE THE DAMN ROCK ALONE!
THERE ARE ENOUGH HOLES, PIN SCARS, COPPER HEADS, BASHIES, ETC.
JUST GO FREE CLIMB!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Minerals wrote:
"The best drill that I have seen for hand drilling is the Hurricane Hand Drill, designed by John Middendorf."
About 20 years ago, I used (and still have) what I think is the drill system you referenced above, if not the projenitor: it used straight shanked drill bits, with a flat face on the shank, which 2 or 3 set screws in the handle would tighten into.
The handle was (is) nice and short and Tucker Tech and I would buy high speed steel cobalt bits at the hardware store in Merced. At the time, I was using split shaft 5/16" X 1 1/2" Rawls, with a 5/16" cobalt bit, modified to a chisel point.
This was clearly a counter-indicated deployment of that cobalt steel drill bit(impact drilling), but it "cut" the hole very quickly and I never busted a bit.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Hi Tarbaby-
Actually, I remember that drill, if I recall correctly, and it was a drill made by "Dakota Bolt Works" , which is no longer in business. The Dakota drill used the set screws, and the only way you could really make it work properly in my experience is to use lock-tite to glue in the set screws every time you changed a bit. Set screws really are not designed for impact/vibration applications.
The Hurricane drill, which I designed (when I was living in Hurricane, Utah, around 1993 or so), used a completely different principle, that is, a tightening interchangable collet system, which had two advantages: 1, you could change out the collets to allow any size shank to be used, in increments of 1/64" as well as metric, so it made hardware store bits in any country a viable bit for the system (it also worked with SDS bits, of course, but had the added advantage that the SDS bit shank could be cut down (as it didn't require all the SDS flutes and stuff), so the overall drill system was nice and short. Mainly, the tightening system is bombproof, once a bit was set, there was no chance for any loosening.
Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sounds like a story worth sticking to Deuce.
Yes Dakota; that sounds right, purchased at Rim Cyclery in '87.
I recently snapped off a bit in the handle, trying to remove it.
(must have rusted/molecular bonded into the handle.
Ever use the cobalt bits?
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Nate D making it count on the FA of 'Three Amigos'.
"Arms tired yet, Nate?" ;)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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BHilden wrote:
"I think drilling styles is pertinent to this discussion"
I use an alternating combination of light taps and heavy hitting to engage the muscles differentialy, all while keeping the bit twisting a slight bit as the blows are delivered.
What works best for me is a very agressive, heavy hit with a good, weighty hammer head (old Chouinard wall hammer) combined with a light twisting motion at the moment of impact and an attitude of visualizing that damn drill punching a hole very quickly, backed up with resolve and force to get the job done. I primarily use light taps as my alternating "rest phase".
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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TarDaddy-
Yep, cobalt bits were the only bits I used for 1/4", mostly becuase I could buy specific sizes, e.g. 17/64" for softer granite, and 9/32" for some rivets, etc.
Though I still have a good collection of old Rawls, Leepers, and even some early 5.10 bits, it turned out it was just easier (and cheaper) going to the hardware store, though I did find that you had to buy a variety of brands, then toss a few cheapos away (in other words, quality varied).
The advantage of the cobalt bits were the "margin" which worked best with custom sharpening. I have some images of what I mean by "margin" on my bigwalls.net website somewhere.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Ubergoober on early efforts of Operation Pinnacles Freedom at Pinns Nat. Mon.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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Hey, Clint! No, I haven’t tried those SDS bit types that you have pictured above. The first one, with the centering point looks like it might be a little sharper than the standard Powers SDS bit. But as sharp as a HSS bit? I dunno. The three- and four-point tips look like they would drill about as well as those old-school three-point HSS quarters… But who knows, if I used a power drill, I might think that they rule!
Yes, different drilling situations may require different drilling equipment – we use whatever is most practical for each given situation, and whatever suits our personal preferences best.
Drilling styles are most definitely pertinent to all hand drilling discussions. Good call, Bruce. Greg and I have quite different drilling styles, yet we achieve the same goal with roughly the same amount of time and effort... except for those quarters… ;) Once the hole gets started, some prefer a rhythm of a few to several hits with a slight pause to readjust their grip on the drill between hits. I prefer a constant rhythm while adjusting my grip between each hit, not during rotation. It seems to me that the more rotation between each hit (without rotating too much), the more efficient the drill time. And hell, if the bit will take it, talk to it like you mean it!
Another advantage of placing quarter-inchers on the FA of free routes is that you can move the bolt position at replacement time if necessary. Top-roping rehearsal and rap-bolting allow for PPP (Proper Prior Planning) of bolt placements to exact locations. Ground-up stance drilling may not allow for such well-planned bolt locations. So why not “fix” your route after your original “experience” to create the desired end product? Al Dude, sir-bad-ass, earlier this season you said that retro-bolting one’s own route seems like a strange idea… but if the end product will be enjoyed by many climbers and the original (Jimi Hendrix) “experience” has been achieved, why not retro? …Even if it means adding bolts to original run-outs! Or must we prove ourselves to all who may follow our routes?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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I retro'd one of my routes: Seamstress, at Courtright. Regretted it ever since. The FA was one of the boldest stunts I have ever done. I got talked into degrading it by folks who couldn't climb it after I added bolts. Shoulda' left it the way it was... (knot that anyone knows where it is or gives a hoot anyway.)
Think twice before you alter your own route. A perfect example is the bolt added to the top of Monaco in Indian Cove. Brought that route down a lot.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Added a bolt to the start of Hairline. Originally the first bolt was 20 feet or so off of the top of the snowbank.
Next year we go back, and that d@mned thing is 65 feet off the deck!
Alex punched in a bolt lower (I didn't want to, but it was his lead!)
Then what does he do? He turns the lead over to me.
I pulled the lead rope and climbed right past that first bolt, way up to the "keep the riff-raff-off" bolt of our first attempt. Needless to say, I insisted we pull the lower bolt, but, unfortunately we didn't have the tools to do it.
Fast forward 18 years to when Nurse Ratchet, Elmar, Lisa and I are replacing the quarter inch bolts.
I figure if I can still climb past that first bolt, we'll pull it. This time we have the pry pars, tuning forks, and patching gunk to do it right.
I clipped it, and was thankful.
We replaced it with a 3/8".
Brutus
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Yo Kris....
knot that anyone knows where it is or gives a hoot anyway
Horton knows....and he's a Who! ;)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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i've retro'd one of my own routes, but only because it is on an otherwise basic crag, and I have enough runout routes otherwise I suppose... i guess I'm not always trying prove something. Do I really need to prove anything? Probably not. Just a game at the time.
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scooter
climber
Moss Landing CA
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Bob Jensen and Sean Kriletich did a buch of bolting on lead on their Fairview traverse. I have only seen the route from other routes on the dome.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Yeah Kris, I had lead Monaco the way it was and you could take a little whip at the top but now...Tame.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Hey Tusi,
I wonder how our single 1/4"er is holding up on Wall of Voodoo down in the Trono.
By the way, that N Face route we 'been eyeballin': Accomazzo did an aid ascent back in the day...
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Dec 10, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
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Tidbits:
 craziest one: yes, as noted above, with Pat Ament on Soarks where he drilled using a rock as a hammer since, umm, we left the real one at home.
technique stuff: not sure there was any full proof technique against (1) broken drills, (2) slow go (3) falling off in the middle. Did find I could drill with a broken drill, blowing dust from the hole seem to prevent binding and sometimes you just fall especially when adjusting a stance or hammering too hard overhead on steep stuff. Never used hooks or weighted the drill but did have a sling connecting drill to me so not to drop it (but still managed a drop once on Fairest of All with night approaching)
hard stances: think I've repressed them, but some on Chiquito Dome, one or two on Shake and Bake, some in Tuolumne. Here's steep old Shake and Bake, Pinnacles National Monument. Chris Vandiver and Tom Fukuya are pictured on an early attempt. After their scouting, I led and placed bolts above and that's where a couple were tippy to place.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 14, 2008 - 02:19am PT
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anyone use one of these for their hand drilling yet?
i hadn't seen this before.
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Shannon
Trad climber
Asheville, NC
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Jan 14, 2008 - 09:13am PT
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Stance hand drilling is not dead. Recent North Carolina action.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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It's almost time for another season... YaaaaHoooo!!! Obama couldn't stance drill on a sidewalk!!!
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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Munge, I picked one of those up. It seemed to work fine for me.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2008 - 10:07pm PT
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HG, how does the bit lock into the holder? SDS only? Is it light? The grip looks nice…
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Best stance drillers I've climbed with (or seen)...
1) Tobin Sorenson
2) Kurt Smith
3) Bob Kamps
4) ......
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Trippel40
Trad climber
CO
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What is the stance driller's opinion regarding the efforts of organizations like ASCA to advocate larger diameter bolts claiming that this ensures 30 years or so of safety?
Im not trying to be a rabble rouser, just curious what y'all think.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Last week in the South Platte.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I took off from the belay up the steep headwall and got in a small stopper. Kept going up into harder ground and started getting pumped. No gear, no stance, nothing to hook even if I coulda let go to grab one. No where to go but up. 15/20 feet above the stopper it gets worse. Trembling and shaking I take the whipper- full on arm swinging, all air, and jumar back to the belay whipper.
Back up on it. Instead of punching it up the headwall I find a way to turn a little sideways bulge to get onto easier ground. Takes a hard and irreversible iron cross move to do it. Still no gear and nowhere to drill. Up up and up. 40 or 50 feet from the stopper that held my last fall. 10ish slab climbing. I'm seeing god. Finally, at last, a spot to stance drill...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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People were moving away from 1/4" long before the ASCA came along! The ASCA doesn't have a position advocating what bolts stance drillers use (I use 1/4" all the time, unless the stance is good enough for a bigger bolt - but I replace them right away. OK, I replace most of them right away...).
On the other hand, the ASCA (and locals all over the place who replace bolts now and in the future) would prefer that everyone use stainless bolts of at least 3/8" diameter, just so we don't have to go out and replace them in a couple decades. There's enough old mank that needs replacement, we don't need to go add to the problem. Especially 3/8" diameter non-stainless stud bolts, destined to be super ugly rusted and still hard to chop - and requiring a new hole when they are replaced.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Nice thread revival.
If ya'll don't mind, I'd like to insert here a few fine questions from Mr. Tarbuster, laboriously borrowed from yonder interesting "Side By Side Ethics" thread. These really didn't see a response there, but maybe we'll get a sense of it 'round this fire.
"I'd like to see trad survive, I think sport climbing is cool too. Just how robust is the current trad FA bolting movement and how can we assess that?"
and
"But from what I know, not that this is a problem, most young climbers focus their trad experiences on gear routes.
Around here, they rehearse and red point nasty cracks with poor pro; almost head point style. When they "clip bolts", they are thinking sport climb. I'm not so sure many of them are running out to look for stance drilling experiences."
Curious...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ASCA 5-piece at top, 3/8" x 3" w/SS hanger, one of Roger Breedlove's Dolt 1/4" x 1" split shaft steel bolts, Powers 3/8" x 2.25" SS bolt with Metolius SS hanger and another of Roger's bolts...
some side-by-side comparisons
I was actually impressed at how well the old bolts had stood up, considering what they were. I'll gladly take the time to put the bigger bolts in...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Bob, whats up with the yellow diaper??
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Trippel40
Trad climber
CO
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Hey, Greg, sorry for any misumderstanding re. ASCA. I was just using as an example. I appreciate your insights!
While it definitely is fun doing routes ground up Ive hooked and drilled basically because I was too chicken to risk putting in a 3/8 inch or 12 mm bolt from a stance due to the length of time you'd need to hang out there so hooking was something I just took for granted as the approach on steep terrain. Its an education listening to this thread!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Heh heh, that's funny. I can say the exact opposite - I've stance drilled from dicey stances because i was too chicken to try a hook. Hooks pop, hooked edges crumble.
Besides, if you use 1/4" on granite on lead, you can pull them easily and replace them, and you can also move them easily and patch the old hole (eg the stance is over right but having the bolt a few feet left reduces rope drag).
A few years ago I did a fun slab, the first part of the first pitch one day, the top another time (oops, that reminds me that 3 of the bolts are still short 1/4", and Minerals wants me to add a pro bolt even though HE won't consider adding a bolt on a multipitch that we did...oops I'm getting off track...). There was clearly nothing to hook, so I left the hook on the ground, along with all the pro except some RPs. And then, on a much-more-sloping-than-I-had-hoped stance for the anchor, there was a perfect 1.5" hole with a nice lip (on granite slab). Dang it! I nearly always carried a hook before that - but I always carry a hook now.
One fun thing about replacing old bolts is checking out the stances - and every once in a while (or more often with some folks), the hidden bathook holes under the bottom of the hangers...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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thx HG.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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Alright, Mr. Memory… Which route do I want you to add a bolt to? I can’t place it.
And the multi-pitch route… Nope, no 5th bolt for that pitch! ;)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Egads, Ed.
Those split shaft bolts with Dolt hangers were top of the line in '72. Gravity must be way stronger now. Is that a global warming thing? Or just some sort of inflation?
I still have a few left in my bolt kit. I guess my idea of selling them on E-bay to sport climbers or Doug to help top up my retirement account is a lost cause.
Buzz
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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No pictures but here's a good story from our first ascent of Pizza Face. I pulled this out of a thread from MP.com. Youcan read the whole thread here: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/estes_park_valley/lumpy_ridge/105751048?highlightphrase=Pizza+Face&
Lots of good historical perspective on this thread. Here's the extracted story:
OK OK, I guess it's time to jump in here and tell the story of Pizza Face. First of all, that was my nickname in High School becaue I had some acne for a while. Nothing major but it was enough to earn me a nickname for it. It all started out as an expedition to climb Kite Slab, that wonderful face perched up high that didn't have any face routes on it. When we got to the base, my partner, Jim Brink, looked at the slab to the right of Endless Crack and said, "let's try it". He was able to climb it on a top rope so we sat down and had the "BOLT" discussion.
The situation at the time was this: Bolted face routes were going in right and left up there. The current standard was either "Skid You Not", put up by Aaron Walters and Billy Westbay (RIP) or "Labor of Lust" put up by Bill Wylie, Scott Kimball and Randy Joseph. By today's standards, both were runnout death routes, with more in common with Bachar-Yerian than with current sport routes. Think back: At that time, there was nothing even called a sport route, let alone a sport climb. There were bolted face routes and there were gear routes. Because this pre-dated sport climbing and power drills, the method of installation was an ethical concern. The norm was quarter inchers for pitch pro and 3/8" for belays. The most ethical way to place bolts was to start from the belay and climb until you found a place where you could stand and drill. If you were chicken, you'd hang a hook over the end of the bit, up against the rock, once the drill bit in a little, and you could take some weight off your feet. Next in the hierarchy was to find a hook placement and drill from there. That's why some bolt placements don_t make sense. Waaaaay down the ladder, and almost unthinkable at that time, was to drill from rappel. "Labor of Lust" was led from the ground up, the bolts placed from stances or while hanging on hooks. "Skid You Not" was TR'd and then drilled from rappel, at the time a heinous assault on ethics, but since it was Westbay who did it, and it was .11c, we all wrote it off to pushing the envelope.
So that was the landscape when Brink and I had our "BOLT" talk. We knew we could climb it, it was a well-defined line, admittedly squeezed, but, hell, we thought, "the Book really needs a face climb". So we set up a top rope, and Jim bolted it while he climbed it again. At that time we put in four bolts, the lowest one being the second one you see today. The edges were crumbly then, but edges on new rock are frequently crumbly and seem to clean up with traffic. Either we were wrong then or the route doesn't get much traffic.
The third pitch, Kite Slab was mine. I climbed up about 40-50 feet on 10-ish climbing (Somebody help me out here. It seemed like a long way above the belay. How far up is that first bolt?), and found a sketchy stance and started drilling. 30 minutes of tapping to get a 1" hole done and when I was banging in the split-nail, it bent down (I never was a good carpenter.), leaving a bad bolt stud. F*#k. I was 50 feet above the belay with no gear in and no possibility of getting gear other than a bolt. I hung a wired nut over the stud, clipped it and began another hole, still refusing to hang on the rope because I thought I was ethically pure. I didn't trust the bent over bolt much either. I drilled another hole next to it and began to tap in a button-head. These are weird bolts: You've got to put the stud through the hole on the hanger before you bang the stud in so It's a pain. The bolt rattles and the hanger gets in the way of the hammer. Ding, ding, ding with a rising tone; they sound just like a good pin going in. And then it happened again. I had it almost all the way in and the stud bent over. I stared stupidly at the hanger which was covering up the bad stud and cursed the fact that I was such a shitty carpenter.
I looked in my bolt bag and counted only two studs left. I looked up at 60-70 feet of slab left to climb and did the math. I had to go on what was in, even if that left me with guaranteed 30-foot runnouts. I clipped a runner into the two funky bolts, equalized them and took off. The climbing was teriffic_steep 10+ to 11- edgy, balancey face climbing that in another 15 or 20 led to another place to drill. Got a good one in here and could breathe again. One more bolt about 20 feet higher and I cruised to the roofs and some good natural pro. Then about 50 feet to the top.
I came back by myself the next day with a big hammer, a crow bar and more bolts to clean up the mess. I rapped down and chopped the bent stud, crow-barred the bad bolt and re-drilled the hole and placed a good bolt (As good as gets anyway.) at the base of Kite Slab. That was before the days when we thought about filling in holes and camouflage glue, so there's a stud you can see there below the surface of the rock.
Brink and I came back the next week to climb it clean all the way through. Brink got to lead the first pitch and was able to do it with only one slip. I followed clean and got Kite Slab. It went clean for me and we enjoyed the top for a while. Later that fall I came back and led the first pitch clean. Back at the base we established the crime scene. Jim felt like the first pitch needed another bolt at the bottom to 'define' it better, and make it a clean, all face lead. The first bolt was about 20 feet off the ground and since no-one had thought of the stick-clip idea yet, something was needed. Jim argued that requiring the leader to put in a cam up high on Endless Crack then traversing over to the first bolt ruined the beautiful line. I wasn't so sure but after 45 minutes of discussion about whether to do it or not, and soliciting the advice of a passing climber who thought it needed another bolt, Jim went ahead and put it in.
For better or worse, that's the story. Am I proud if it? As a route I don't know. Since it shares the second pitch with Endless Crack there are only two pitches of new climbing. Kite Slab is the most memorable pitch I've ever led. I'll never forget the pain in my toes while standing on 10b edges drilling the first bolt. I'll never forget the commitment I had to dig for in order to keep going that day. And I'll never forget the terrific climbing up there on that slab. The first pitch feels a bit less clean. It feels engineered, practiced and over-thought. What to do, whether to do it, and how to do it were all questions for both of us, leaving a slightly bitter taste after it was done. I get pissed when the guidebooks report Pizza Face as a one pitch route, leaving out what is possibly one of the best face pitches on Lumpy. But perhaps that's just a reaction to a schizzo route that has two distinct faces (NPI).
I don't think the route deserves the stink-bomb award. The climbing is good, waaaaay hard, and the position, especially Kite Slab, is terrific. Did we make mistakes? Sure, and I'd go back and correct if I could. Be careful about judging. The ethical landscape was changing every day (At that time Wilford wouldn't use Friends because of his ethically pure beliefs.) and it didn't just evolve in a stright line. It jumped back and forth, made advances in some way, lost it's purity in others. Every time a new route went in, the ethical envelope was stretched.
Sorry about the length but it's not an easy story to tell quickly.
Mal
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I blame the deterioration of bolt standards, and climbing standards generally, on dark energy.
1970s: Climbers were manly, bolts were manly, no dark energy.
2000s: Dark energy discovered, everything goes to pot.
You don't have to be a genius to know that dark energy is the next worst thing to the dark force. As for how dark matter fits into all this, we'll let Ed explain.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Here's a hint Minerals...lunge to a grainy sloper.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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great thread.
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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Minerals, it is SDS only. There are two allen screws that hold it and the bolts lock the screws into place. I see it being a problem while changing bits on the sharp end, but it works good. The grip is great! I thwacked it twice while trying the drill out. My hand was sure glad to have the pad.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2008 - 12:55am PT
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Thanks for the info, HG. So it is similar to the old Dakota drill that John mentioned earlier, but with improvements? Good to see another hand drill on the market these days.
I had the chance to use a power drill on my leads any time that I wanted a couple months ago, but instead preferred to stick with one of my trusty Hurricanes. Guess I’m kinda stubborn… Or just hate the damn things because of the damage that has been done in the past when in the hands of the Nuker… Are power drills cheating when stance drilling? I know that it’s cool to use them for that other kind of climbing, but on a stance?
Ah, yes, Greg… THAT route… the one where I thought the hold was good but it wasn’t and it took everything that I had, just to hang on. Sure felt like I was close to going for a good ride, and over the corner. But you know, just like that other pitch, it’s THAT kind of climbing that really makes climbing what climbing is, and it’s those kinds of feelings that you don’t find very many other places – the feeling that sticks with you afterwards that constantly reminds you why climbing is such a blast, the feeling of coming really close to getting hurt, but ending up unscathed, the feeling of climbing out past a bolt, not knowing which way to go or if it will go, the feeling of joy when you get to a stance and realize that you can easily pull out the drill, the feeling of uncomfortable joy of reaching a sketchy stance and wondering how long you can stay put with hammer and drill in hand, the feeling of beginning the rigorous and wonderful task of slamming steel to steel to granite, the feeling of adding alloy to stone, and the feeling of completion, when the first belay bolt has been placed. I can’t wait.
Oh, man… rambling again… When we go back up there to add a second pitch, I know who’s leading that first pitch again! :-)
While we’re at it… does anyone know which is the best and easiest place to find a 17/64” DA collet for a Hurricane? I tried Granger in Reno with no luck. Internet? Someone needs one…
Hey, I kinda like this fridge concept… what a handy invention!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Minerals: stance drilling with Bosch is the way forward.... I use a 50' extension cord to keep the runouts under control. Might have some converts for this summer. Have power, will travel....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Russ...email if you get the chance. I want to know how you hook up your system.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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bob ... call me right now! (number deleted)
EDIT: 11:42 now. Damn... missed the window of opportunity! I have 8 minutes of free time and offer it up and nothing! pffft! I'm off to bed. You can still call anytime though.... just Bob... not you other insomniac Eldo Prancers, deviants, and Russ boner clown acts.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Here is all you need;...keep it simple;.......all new climbers, gym climbers, n00bs, upstarts;...this is what you need......forget about the cams and hexes;...that's old school.....
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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here are some shots i dug up...
this is drilling the first of two bolts on math of the pastor on the whales back...
the very first bolt i ever drilled in jtree- obscure 5.9..
getting ready to drill off hooks on the outrage wall @ Potrero Chico..
stance drilling is the legacy of old school fa's and is becoming a lost art...
ks
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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because it's there
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
up Yonder (someplace else)
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Hey, Todd....The lawn chair is optional,right?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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bump
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bryan, great thread. Got me to thinking about some of the stuff I saw this summer over on the North Apron. I am hanging on a fixed rope at each bolt for a long time. Lots of time resting when not pounding on the drill holder. Tring to imagine just how in the hell someone on lead placed the bolt. Thinking the reason they ran it out so far was simply because this was the first place they could stand, no hands, to drill. Some of that stuff just blew my mind. At one place ("Ticket to Nowhere" maybe) the leader broke two drill bits before he got the bolt in. Amazing!!! Come on you old farts, tell us the stories. You guys did some incredible stuff on some incredible rock and I for one, would sure like to hear what you have to say about it.
Roger Brown
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Up-thread there were some comments on SDS inserts blowing out of drill bits. Here is an example:
-n
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Hey Grossman, bet you have some good drill stance stories, I know you are not afraid to run with it.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Don't have any stance photos on the computer, but here's an old one drilling off a thin hook in Joshua Tree.
FA of Crimping Lessons - 5.11 on the South Astro Dome.
Back before power drills were made illegal to use there.
While much of my drilling is now done on rappel with a power drill, I still enjoy getting out on the sharp end with a hand drill when the area ethics dictate it. It's really hard to get the same adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment when doing an FA in any other style.
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Doug Hemken
climber
Madison, WI
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Why would anyone claim that no one has any interest in drilling from stances anymore?
I've participated in establishing routes both ground up and top down. I get more satisfaction out of establishing routes ground up, but I think that just tells you what I enjoy about climbing.
"Old-school style ground-up runouts are seen more as ego statements than anything else - that's the main reason there's such lack of interest ...." But then, top down routes are ego statements, too. Establishing *any* new route requires looking at the rock and saying "I can do that!" And picking any style to do it in means deciding "this method of establishing this route seems right to me!"
I like doing things ground up because it pays dividends for (1) having a pretty precise knowledge of your own ability, in the moment, and (2) being able to read the rock well. For me there's nothing like getting to the top and saying to yourself "Yes, I am that strong! Yes, I do understand this rock!"
On this particular route, "Two Hoofers," I did not have the satisfaction of being quite that strong, but the crux did turn out to be where I suspected it was, and of the nature -polished small holds - that I thought it might be. We were well prepared for what we found, and that felt good.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Yeah, Roger. No kidding. I don’t understand how some guys can drill while standing on almost nothing. It is truly amazing. How are the ribs doing? You OK? Will you be in Tuolumne next year? Greg and I have found some more work for you. :)
My most exciting moments this year have been on lead, trying to get to the next stance and get a bolt in without going for a ride. I don’t think there is anything else quite like it – the excitement of the unknown.
How fast have you guys been able to get a quarter-incher in, with a hand drill, from the time that the hammer starts swinging to the time that the bolt is clipped?
Yeah, Nick… that’s what happens to those things sooner or later. I’ve gotten so sick of the slow drill time with an SDS bit that I now use two drills for drilling out quarter-inch holes for replacement. The SDS bit is used to drill to the original depth of the quarter-inch hole and then I switch to a different drill with a HSS chisel-tip bit because it drills waaaay faster. A HSS bit doesn’t work for drilling out quarter-inch holes because it binds too much, but once the 3/8” hole is started…
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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BAHUMP!
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Minerals, thats a burly way to drill from a stance, changing the drill bits halfway through. I can think of a couple of the worst stances I have drilled from and couldn't imagine trying to change the bit. Granted I have the hand drill that uses the two allen set screws to hold the SDS bit.
I am guessing that you don't drill the entire 3/8" hole with the HSS bit because it gets dull too quick...yes? I am going to have to go over to the Fastenal store and see what they got. Be interesting to give your system a try. How do you sharpen and reuse the HSS bits?
Good to see this thread float to the top again. Thanks Munge!
-n
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Of Course, these are ALL old pictures taken back when bolting in the wilderness and/or electric drills were legal......
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Daily musing...
Dance Stilling?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 25, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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bumpity bump to da bump
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 25, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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buump
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Mar 25, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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first bolt of splatter matt
third..
matt's splatter
actually i dont know what you guys ended up calling this route.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Mar 25, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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The king of stance drilling has to go to Jim "Cosmos" Dunn for putting in a bolt on the crux pitch of the Kor/Ingalls route on Castleton Tower. He drilled the hole with one hand while hanging half out of the overhanging squeeze chimney. This was prior to 1974, long before power drills came into use.
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dcaunt
Sport climber
Chico, CA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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Stance drilling by hand on first ascents was the only way to do it, back in the day. Drilling quarter inchers in hard granite was not just hard work but would get the adrenaline going like nothing else.
My vote for the hardest stance drill that I know of was Rob Settlemire's first bolt on Tips Ahoy at south flank of Daff Dome. He literally tore his fingertips apart drilling that bolt.
Sometimes, as I liked to do, run it out to avoid drilling from hideous stances. But that sort of backfired when I went to drill the fourth bolt on Tin Pan Alley at Hammer dome. Looking at a potential 40 footer on a steep smooth slab, had no choice but to stop and drill from a slimy smear hold.
Rock Neurotic at base of El Cap is another sick like route.
Once the bosch became popular in the late eighties, it seemed the art of hand drilling on stance was destined for forums like this.
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bob
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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The art of stance drilling is not just destined for forums like this. I know so many people who love to stance drill, whether they have rap drilled or not.
In my opinion, there is nothing like it. A whole different adventure. Oh man that feeling of your feet going while the sweat beads drop from your nose or eyebrows. Trying to adjust for one or two more whacks before......."FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!" Good stuff!!!!!!!!!!! Belaying people who are up stance drilling is an awesome experience as well eh? To me, when its hard stances to be drilled from, its like watching a suspense thriller 10 times better than Alfred Hitchcock's best.
OOOOOHHHHHHHH YEAHHH!
Bob J.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Hey, how many ladies place bolts these days, on lead while free climbing? Yeah, stance drilling! Well, I know of at least one… and I think she finally got tired of watching someone else place bolts all day long and decided that she had to have some fun too! After several 1/4” practice bolts at the bivy and one from a simulated stance, Linda was ready to go drilling on lead. She was offered a mid-weight BD hammer to use, but preferred to swing the big lunker instead! We figured that West Farthing (Tuolumne) would be a good spot to start because it is low angle and there are good stances.
So, in early September, Linda, George, and I headed up to the wall. I climbed the first part of the pitch and put in a couple of 3/8” bolts, then let her take over. She cruised up to the first stance and then started swinging the hammer; 15 minutes later she had a 1/4” bolt clipped! And then she went up and placed another 1/4” bolt before coming down for a rest. I placed another 3/8” bolt and then lowered off again. Linda went back up for another 1/4” bolt and then came down to let me put in the belay. And that was the pitch! Angry Dwarf – 5.8 – a fun knob pitch on really good rock… next to Mad Gnome… which is a takeoff on Nomad. WOOHOO!!!
Nice job, Linda!
Yes, she can swing that hammer!
Linda, drilling her first on-lead bolt hole
Linda’s first stance; fixed rope on Mad Gnome, left black streak
George, following the pitch
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 15, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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Kudos Linda ! Did ya redpoint the pitch??
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Great job Linda Loo!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 15, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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AD… If Linda has to redpoint the pitch then we need to blindfold her first to make the redpoint fair!!!
So, Mr. Gordon… Would you like to tell us about your megacrystic quartz monzonite/granodiorite desert rock? I think I can still see straight enough to tell that I don’t see Tuolumne… Hmmmm… Very nice.
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Dickbob
climber
Colorado
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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Here is a lady who could drill from stance
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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cool photos.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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I don't think I could follow Linda's route......
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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dink dink dink, dink dink dink, dink dink dink
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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all right Linda!
gotta get the back straightened out and ready for the winter's projects...
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Oct 16, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Linda Rules, huh, Minerals?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 16, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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excellent.
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BillO
Boulder climber
Whittier, CA
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Oct 16, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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yosguns
climber
Durham, NC
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Oct 16, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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Aw, Linda Lou, congrats!!! This is so exciting; I'm so proud! :) Keep it up. You look darn good doing it, too! Hope we'll see you around the holidays.
Allyson
PS It's really nice to get updates like this!
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ninjah
Big Wall climber
a van down by the river
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Oct 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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I did some stance drilling last week in the valley with brian b on his and norms route to the right of the royal arches, it was just as you described it ! Fun, and scary and good old fashon hard work!
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 16, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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BLaw - you're confusing redpoint with onsight. Now - answer the question *
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Naw, Al Dude… I’m not confused… That wasn’t my point!
No, she didn’t redpoint the pitch. Are you upset? :)
Nice, Ninjah!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 17, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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Bill O;...I replaced those bolts on Deep , Shallow and Twisted......they were all 1/4 " bolts...the first one was deep ...the second one was shallow...and the 3rd one was twisted........(They are all bomber now.....I didn't want to lead the route as it was.....so I replaced them, and then lead the climb.....it's a good one....)...
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BillO
Boulder climber
Whittier, CA
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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Thanks Todd. Should we change the name to Bomber, Bomber and Bomber now?
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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Nice shot Billy. Hey, are those my f*#king shoes? They are ant they, damn. I led that thing. I just clipped them, didn’t check them. I think it was a fine route. Fact is you and Robby put up a some nice stuff out there. I think the name should remain.( funny ) It’s a good one! shoot a e-mail let me know what you are doing.
Cheers, Bruce.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:30am PT
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Yeah Linda LOO!!!
Way to go lady, looks like some really good climbing.
Hope you are well and I'll see you soon.
Peace,
Mucci
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:41am PT
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Bill O....the name should remain Deep, Shallow, and Twisted;...a reminder of days gone by when climbers actually drilled on the lead, and the bolts weren't bomber......That Bond Boulders area is wonderful;..lots of cool climbs, sunny location, shortish approach, and never any people.....there are WAY more climbs there than in any guidebook too.....it's a wonderful magical place....
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 17, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Not upset - just curious.....who did redpoint the pitch ? ^
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Technically, the pitch hasn’t seen a redpoint yet, because I got a toprope to the last bolt. I know, I know… such poor style… :) Maybe George and I will get a chance next week, in addition to some new stances… Hope so.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 24, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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Keep the rack simple...
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Apolobamba
Trad climber
Boise, ID
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Oct 24, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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Hey Wadey Ice,
Cheers to Bryan Law, I have been digging his new routes in TM this summer. They have been pretty fun.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Oct 24, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Todd are you and Minerals the only ones buying that color of spray paint from the "Great Orange "Box?....
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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Hey, Billy
Gordon bumped up your junk? Cool!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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Hey Al Dude… Angry Dwarf got its first redpoint last week. All is right in the world again!!!
Apolobamba, thanks for the kind words! Glad that you have been enjoying the routes! We’ve had a blast putting them up!
Miller, I stopped using spray paint… Tuolumne winters are just too hard on the stuff and it flakes off after one winter – worthless.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dec 21, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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This is a stance, isn't it?..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dec 23, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Another old photo.....always on the lead......never on rappel...
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BillO
Boulder climber
Whittier, CA
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Dec 24, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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Both routes are in the Barker Dam area JT.
Hey Todd I'm not sure witch is harder, drilling by hand or trying to hold that big power drill over your head.
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Tea
Trad climber
Behind the Zion Curtain
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Dec 24, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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Ground up! gotta love it.
And remember....just say no to squeeze plays!
(if the graphic causes any seizures...I will remove it)
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Dec 24, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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Sometimes you need to climb really badly and have to get it done before work.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Top of the 5.2-5.12 Boulder
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Dec 25, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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Whoa....got your kit goin'.......
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Cannon
Trad climber
Wildomar, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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my aplogise if this has been brought up, but i didnt have the patients to wade through the 160 some odd posts.
TOD GORDON. in the 5th set of photos you put up. that is J-Tree, yes. if you recall, what are the names of the routes
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dec 25, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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the 5th photo I posted was of Houses of the Homeless (Hall of Horrors) at Joshua Tree...the photo in the 5th SET of photos is a single photo taken of a climb called Wet Behind, Dry Wallet (5.10c) at the Hollywood Boulders in Oz at Joshua Tree...hope those are the right ones...
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Mar 27, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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Hey BLaw...this SDS bit sucks....will your machine bits work w/Pika holder?
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Mar 27, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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More photos please. Todd?
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Mar 27, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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Some high quality rock, totally worthy of stance drilling. The first bolt on the second pitch of Flying Circus, Tahquitz.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 27, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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Yeah more photo's!
There was a heavy power drill barrage earlier, had to set this thread back on point.
Mucci
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 28, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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aldude, nice recovery thread!
Muccisimus Aquafinus Mossticularity
oops, this is the 'stance' thread, and here I go posting up the hookers
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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TG, Chiriaco....always on the lead
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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“There was a heavy power drill barrage earlier, had to set this thread back on point.”
WooHoo! Nice recovery by you guys, starting with the Styleee One. And nice to see the hammers in the air.
Al Dude Lives…! SICK stance! The drill leash tells the truth. Damn! Looks like bubble gum territory to me as far as the bolting (push and stick… technology not yet developed…).
Old shoes, but “current” looking shades, a bent DMM, and a skinny sling – photo relatively recent?
Master Al Dude, we need to get you a Hurricane drill. Then, you can use whatever, wherever, drill bits you would like. Deucey really created a great tool. Maybe Ebay, or the like? If not, we’ll keep the word out to look for one here on ST. There have got to be extras floating around – how many were made and how many are actually used these days?
Can’t remember what the mouth of a Pika drill looks like, but it uses allen set-screws, right? I dunno; anyone else have any experience with this setup? If it will accept an SDS bit, then I would guess that a 25/64” (slightly oversized 3/8”) hardware store bit (high-speed steel) will fit into the holder. You’ll have to check it out. Then, if necessary, maybe grind a slight flat surface (parallel to the length of the drill bit) at the bottom end of the bit so that the allen screws have a flat place to “seat” in order to crank down on the bit.
Do you have bit loosening problems with the allen screws? If so, have you tried loctite? If the Pika holder seems to work for you and you can get the HSS bits to seat and stay tight, then cool, you’re in there! But if you have any sort of problems with that thing, I highly recommend a Hurricane to anyone who is doing any serious hand drilling, especially someone such as yourself.
Sharpening a HSS drill bit from its original tip shape to a FLAT (not pointed) chisel tip designed for efficient rock drilling requires proper eyeballing, but isn’t complicated in the least “bit.” Sorry… A tip that is too blunt (wider angle) will obviously be less sharp and will drill slower. A tip that is too sharp (narrow angle) will drill faster at first, but will bind more with hole-depth. Maybe one of these days I should dig out my bolting gear and post a thread about my setup…???
Any specific questions, you can email or phone me. Cheers, Al!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 28, 2010 - 01:59am PT
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Minerals-
My petzl drill just broke, the whole collet (sp?) popped off after <100 or so bolts!
I picked up a pika, so I am gonna try milling down the shaft of the hss bit and see if it works. They do have a rep for loosening.
Would the locktite application ruin the integrity of the threads after repeated use?
I really want a hurricane.
Mucci
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2010 - 04:28am PT
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Hey Mucci… damn, bummer! That thing wasn’t worth even a cent? “Sheesh!” ...as the Crazy Canuck Crab would say. The collet nut just fell off? I thought that just happened to Huber Hurricanes… Damn gravity! ;)
Don’t take off too much metal on the HSS bits – just enough to create a flat spot wide enough for the allen screws to seat. Remove too much metal and you will weaken the bit and then, SNAP, right in the middle of your proud and sketchy stance… Akkk!!! That is the worst, and one drawback of the HSS bits, compared to the SDS bits – change the bit, downclimb, or whip – I’ve had to do all three and sometimes things can be exciting. But that’s what makes rock climbing FUN!!! Out of something like 165 bolts last year, I think I snapped maybe a half dozen HSS bits or fewer. With proper technique, they don’t break too often. Ya just gotta hit ‘em straight on, though… Abrupt leverage and no more they are…
You may (will) obliterate the carbide tip on an SDS bit but I don’t think I’ve ever seen the shaft of one snap in half – bend yes, but they are way too burly (and soft) to snap. HSS bits are made of harder steel than the steel of SDS bits and they are more brittle, and prone to snapping at mid-length or so. In comparison, the carbide tips of SDS bits are even harder and will sooner or later shatter after heavy hand drilling use, at which point the bit is destined to the shrapnel pile, for further separation and use later… :)
Breaking 25/64” HSS bits is not so much of a concern as with the quarter-inch (17/64”) diameter bits, but the high-quality-made bits (USA MADE!!!!!!!!!!!) are much better than the ones that say “China”, etc… They’re not as easy to find these days, as our country is not maintaining the manufacturing base that it should, for its own health (and ours), but if you keep looking, you should be able to find them. I purchased the majority of my 17/64” bits from a mail order machine tool supply catalog. If you are serious about drilling and want a lot of bits, then buying in bulk from a quality machine tool distributor (Internet or catalog) is your best bet, for quality and price.
With HSS bits, you also need to keep a good number of bits on hand, or at least I think so for drilling while free climbing. I usually pop in a fresh quarter for any stance that looks at all questionable. If the stance turns out to be not so bad or fat city when I get there, then I will pull up the 3/8” kit on the trail line and spend the time to sink a fatty. If the stance is real, then I will do my best to make that 17/64” sharpie drill, drill, drill! No sense in getting to a desperate stance and having to drill with a slightly dulled bit (used for one hole or two) because you were too lazy to change the bit while resting after the last bolt. I say… I want every advantage that I can get when dealing with that oh-so-fun moment of getting to what you thought was going to be a good stance! UhhHuh!
The HSS bit system is more of a pain to deal with than a quick-change SDS system, and sometimes more time consuming, but I feel that it is worth it and important to my ability to place bolts from difficult (to me) stances.
So far, I think my fastest lead quarter (1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonhead) was the bolt after the short runout (by modern Tuolumne wuss standards) on the first pitch of Flash of the Blade on Razor Back. After some serious psyche, I climbed to the (not too bad at all) stance (“Al Dude’s Bivy Ledge”) and pulled out the Hurricane. I think it took me between 2:15 and 2:30 (max) to have the bolt clipped, from the first hammer blow. Greg Barnes and Brian Bennett were there to witness. No stopwatch, but by their estimates, and a 3:00 bolt timed by George elsewhere in Tuolumne that seemed waaay slower than the aforementioned, I think our estimates are fair. But maybe that’s slow by old school standards. I dunno.
Loctite is a liquid (colored per locking strength) that is applied in drops to the threads of bolts to prevent loosening, once dried. It does not harm or change the surface of the metal of the bolt/threads. I use red loctite on just about every bolt on my ’95 CR 500 dirt bike because it’s just one giant vibrator that will leave parts in the desert otherwise! Check with your local auto parts store for loctite or thread-lock products. The stuff ain’t cheap, considering how much you get.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/subcategory.asp%3fCatID=10&SubID=48
Do I hear a chant from the ST crowds…???
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
McDevitt Hammers, Hurricanes…
Theron is again being paged!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 28, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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Thanks for the word!
I have been grinding down the tips of the SDS, I still have not found the best angle but on a few of them, the drilling is drastically improved.
It is a fine line as to how sharp an angle you can get away with. But getting a second round with those bits is pretty nice.
Even just a trim to "Resharpen" the carbide works wonders, and can be done with a diamond or regular "Black" wheel.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Mar 28, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Yesterday,
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Mar 29, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Yo Bry.... photo was from last week. The mismatched shoes are my secret weapon - board lasted,lace to the toe Onyx driven muthas! Does 5.10 still make the straight chisel bits in 3/8ths ? I still have a rawl holder in my 1/4 in. kit. Do you have any? Those rigs were the bomb. What happened with the drilling comp w/Salmanizer ?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Uhhhhh… How ‘bout a sober post this time… :)
Mucci – you have been able to sharpen the SDS tips and have had no problems with them shattering while drilling? Do you swing a heavy hammer and “talk” to the drill, or more vice versa? I’ve sharpened a few on a silicon-carbide (green) wheel a while back, but the tips just shattered after not much drilling. Cool deal if you are getting that to work! Others have said that a diamond wheel on a Dremel tool works as well. But I’d imagine that the lifespan of a regular (black) grinding wheel would be significantly reduced if used to sharpen carbide tips. I’m curious as to what you’d think of the Hurricane/HSS setup.
Al Dude – Yeah, the mismatched shoes definitely add style. Nice photo. And I can’t imagine a better way to go than what you just described – board-lasted, laced to the toe, and with Onyx. I should try that stuff over C4 next time – maybe on the TCs that need a board in ‘em. 5.10 doesn’t make any board-lasted shoes, do they? I still can’t find anything that beats Kaukulators for me. Huhhhh…
Not sure about 5.10 and drill bits these days, but kind of doubt it. Anyone? I may have a couple of the old 5.10 bits in 3/8” (with the straight flutes), but they are buried way back in storage with my no longer used old gear. Got a couple of the old Rawl holders too.
If you’ve got a grinder and are willing to spend the time for some semi-precise tinkering, you might be able to modify HSS drill bits by adding a taper on the bottom end, such that the bit seats properly in the Rawl holder (smooth bit/drill interface, adequate drift pin clearance, bit centered and straight, etc.). I forget the exact dimensions on the old Rawl holders so I don’t know if this will really work. But it’s a thought. Still think you should find a Hurricane… Then you can do whatever you want.
The drilling duel? I dunno. Maybe Salamanizer wasn’t that serious about it. I think it would have been a lot of fun. Hope to see you in Tuolumne this summer - got a couple new routes for you to check out.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 31, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Minerals- I have used both the diamond wheel and the standard black wheel on carbide tips.
I have a few that were done with the black wheel and they have not broken, I never cooled the tip, and would try and eyeball the structure of the tip to get a idea of maximizing the metal.
They end up flat with just a bit of the original tip.
Of note, the Pika drill will take HSS bits, You just have to measure the bit to the threaded lock studs, and mill or grind a shallow notch on each side. Booyah!
Problem is I think the two studs are 7mm which is hard to find, I am missing one right now.
The hurricane is great, a friend has one with the "raised" striker as you mentioned up thread. Were those 1st generation?
I have not tried a HSS bit on the Hurricane, could you fab a different collet and maybe groove the bit?
Pika seems to me to be the next best drill to the hurricane, although I think you lose energy per strike on the hurricanes that have the raised striker.
How is the drilling with it after you grind to flat?
Drill talk live!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Mar 31, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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SLACK!! PINNNG!!!!!!!!!!
Can't wait to get back.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 31, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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It seems, by the entries on this thread, that lots of people have lost the distinction between stance drilling and drilling from hooks.
Bob Kamps used to razz me for using hooks. He would say "You know, it's not really a free climb if you used aid to set the protection."
For myself, it's always ground up. But I've used hooks more often than I have "stanced." I did do some pretty exciting stance drilling at Dome Rock a few times. I was climbing with Herb Laeger, and like the late great Mr. Kamps, he dislikes the use of hooks, although he'll use one in a pinch. We did a couple routes at Courtright that simply weren't going to happen any other way.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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Mucci – Ah, ok. So, you are saying that you grind the SDS bits like this...?
(If I’ve got it wrong, I’ll nuke the image…)
Not sure which generation those Hurricanes with the raised “striker” belong to.
“I have not tried a HSS bit on the Hurricane, could you fab a different collet and maybe groove the bit?”
Not quite following you there. For 3/8” or 1/4” bits?
Here’s the basic rundown on the Hurricane:
The drill originally comes fitted with a 25/64” collet; this collet will accept SDS bits as well as 3/8” or 25/64” straight-shank bits (HSS bits). For hard rock, like granite, a 3/8” HSS bit drills a hole that is too tight, so a 25/64” bit should be used for 3/8” bolts (5-piece, etc. and wedge).
Additional collets can be purchased (machine tool supply) for the Hurricane drill and are sized in increments of 1/64”. Collets have a range of 1/64” and will accept a bit of the same diameter as well as a bit that is 1/64” smaller in diameter.
So, for placing the original Rawl 5/16” buttonheads in hard rock, an 11/32” collet should be used, to accommodate either a 21/64” or 11/32” bit.
For placing 1/4” buttonheads in hard rock, a 17/64” collet should be used, to accommodate a 17/64” bit. 1/4” bits drill a hole that is too tight for buttonheads – the hole will crater and the bolt will likely bend and refuse to occupy the hole.
Just happen to have a couple of new collets handy…
Here’s a pic of a 17/64” collet; when it comes to stance drilling, I won’t leave the ground without one.
17/64” double-angle collet (200DA0266)
(The second yellow container and both stickers say “MADE IN USA”… Not sure about the Costa Rica thing…)
As far as losing any energy per strike with the raised striker, the only way I see that happening is if the hammer strikes are glancing significantly off of the drill; but that is more of a matter of drilling technique and hammer condition than drill design. I don’t feel like I lose any efficiency with the Hurricane. I’ve only taken a Hurricane to a grinder because the edges of the drill holder (outside of the striker) start to mushroom – it’s mainly to clean up the drill, although I also put a slight (flat) texture on the top of the striker and on the face of my hammers, for better “grip”… You know, like waffle-head framing hammers and 16p nails. But it doesn’t take long for either to regain its shine. You can also grind a hammer face such that it is slightly concave – this will also help to maintain solid hammer/drill contact. But aim is the key. And my sunglasses say… “Watch out for those back swings!”
Is it time for a beer yet? Hope this helps! I still need to get my drill kit out of storage for some photos…
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 31, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Yes that is what I grind on the SDS bits,
You answered my other question about the size of the collet that accepts the 3/8 HSS bit.
I would assume then you could chop off the back end of a sds bit, and still use it in the hurricane?
Shorter is better.
Thanks for the info, helped out tons.
Happy drilling!
OH and I still need a hurricane drill!.............anybody?
Mucci
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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“I would assume then you could chop off the back end of a sds bit, and still use it in the hurricane?”
You got it. It helps, but you can only get rid of 3/8” or 1/2” before the 25/64” collet begins to lose contact with what’s left of the SDS shank. I’ve got a few SDS bits like that but am too lazy to chop 3/8” SDS bits these days for how little I use them (only for drilling out 1/4” holes while hanging on a rope).
Yet another advantage of the Hurricane… You can chop HSS bits down to any length that you want. The collet system allows for an almost unlimited number of bit possibilities.
Glad to share what I can, Mucci.
Oh, and t*r… the proper term is bolting geek! We can’t help it. ;)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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Forgot to mention… SDS bits are pretty burly – you will need something like a carbide hacksaw blade to chop the bottom off. A regular hacksaw blade won’t do it. Got power tools?
17/64” HSS (high-speed steel) drill bits
Hey everyone, thanks for all of your great photo contributions to this thread!
(edit: ...to edit, and edit above, cuz I am being a retard again...)
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Hey Minerals, I didn't forget about the duel.
I'm a working man you see and am hardly ever in Tuolumne. The end of the season was fast approaching and I knew I wasn't going to make it back up there so I just let it go. With spring on the horizon and summer to follow shortly, maybe we could have a second go eh?
Besides, I'd really like to check out your drill rig set up. If it is faster I'm definitely interested.
Like I say though, I'm a working man and my weekends are priceless, so we'll have to make plans to climb something as well.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think what is pretty evident from all the discussions on this thread is that there isn't one *best* method for hand drilling. I have drilled probably 300+ holes with 3/8" SDS carbide-tipped bits and have never broken a tip or a drill bit. In fact, I have been using the same drill bit for the past four or five years, just sharpening up the bevel on the carbide tip after every 10 or so holes (whatever I drill in a day at the rock).
I think it is clear that drilling style has a huge effect on the durability of one's bolting gear. It is good that you all are experimenting with bit shapes, etc, but I think the durability issue is more a result of drilling style than the specific equipment choice. Matching your bolting equipment to your bolting style is probably the most important factor.
Yes, the collet design of the Petzl RockPec is a bit of an issue (I have seen several modes of failure), but I still prefer it over the Pika (too complicated to change bits and the set screws are a real liability) and the Hurricane (not a bad second choice, but the two wrench design for tightening bits adds some complexity). YMMV.
Bruce
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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Cool, Salamanizer. Yeah, maybe we can plan on something for this summer. I’d be happy to show you the kit. Climbing sounds good too, but nothing too serious as I can’t climb what you can climb. Maybe others can get involved as well and we can do some testing of sorts, as Bruce suggested earlier and now mentioned again. And we don’t have to bet a case of Sierra – we can just all drink it instead!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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So Bruce, how many holes with that same bit?
Not counting Pinnacles, since you can drill endlessly there, clean off the bit, and it looks brand new...
Just wondering, since I think my max was 70+ holes in Tuolumne granite with a single SDS bit before the flanges wore down too much (so it got harder to tap in the 5-pieces). But since nearly all of those were expanding old 1/4" holes, it's probably not a good comparison.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Just landed a Hurricane via the Fleabay!
No wrenches or original packaging, but the search is over.
Look out HSS Bits.........
WHOOP!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Get that thing down here, we have work to do!
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Mucci- I have a bunch of Pika set screws. I found a place to buy them online, but had to buy 20 minimum (all 20 for only $6 or thereabouts). Email me your address and I'll send a couple your way.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Dammit Mucci, you snatched that drill right out from under my nose.
I spotted it, put it on my watch list, checked my finances via... online banking, went back for the purchase and Aahhhh!!!
The "HORROR" It's sold!
So it was "YOU"... Damn you MUCCI!!! You got lucky,,,,, this time...
BWAhahahahahahahahahaha!
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Norman Claude
climber
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Mr Kamps Grade 4, 5.11c Fairview Dome, Tuolumne Meadows
Okay so here's the story on the 5th pitch of Mr Kamps. Vern and I always drilled on the lead and tried to engineer safe routes ie placing pro before you'd hit an ankle breaking ledge. We also tried to use trad pro instead of bolts where we could. And when I climbed with Kamps I found out if I owned a pair of balls or mustard seeds.
Pitch 5:
I'm climbing up and past a sleeping Clevenger swaddled in a head covering sweater. Twenty feet above Vern I'm pissed I'm not getting more love for this bravery. I have one choice and that's to mantle onto the sloper. No chance of letting go where I'm at. 5.10 D climbing to this point. One bolt, one bit, one biner. "Watch me Vern". Answer: Don't f %&^%% ng blow it". No time for self pity. Reality now; crystal clear and right in front of me. Up and onto the sloper praying (might as well) I don't pinwheel backward onto Vern. I manage to stand up and then test whether I can let go. Ten to fifteen seconds at best. I break the bit because it'll drill faster and I can't hit the holder with the bit at full length. Blast the loose granite. A blasphemy to be hitting Mother Earth and especially Fairview like this. I start hitting the sh#t out of the holder. Bacher's playing his horn down at DAFF. I can see Kamps sitting with him. They're watching this show. With brother stoked pride I hit harder. Finally I blow the hole out and sink all one and one quarter RAWL inches and the hanger I made in high school metal shop.
Two more bolts is all I manage. I lower down to the belay and in a scene we've perfected countless times Vern tightens his shoes and takes the next 5.11c shift to the belay.
Ah Tuolumne, Vern, Kamps, Bacher. Ah, brothers and sisters.
Norman Claude
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sal- BWHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!
That thing was not up for long! I saw it, took a second look to make sure it was a Hurricane, BAM!
It's cool we can use it this season on one of those projects!
Mucci
Norm- what a cool story! Man, nothing like gunning it.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Bump just cause drilling from hooks or even better stance is rad,.. +1 for climbs with heart.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Anybody ever fallen off while drilling a bolt from stance? Let's hear the stories or I will have to bore you with mine.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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If I was the marketing guy at Rawl, I would totally sponsor Todd Gordon.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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stance drilling is ghey..
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Anybody ever fallen off while drilling a bolt from stance? Let's hear the stories or I will have to bore you with mine.
Why don't you start the ball rolling, Bruce.
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domngo
climber
Canada
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bump. Came upon this photo on my pc - anyone know the details?
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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O Yeah! Put the drill in yer chalkbag and go for it! What the hell were we thinking??!! Good Times BITD.
Best stance driller I know of: the late "Doc" Baine
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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DMT, I loved getting to that perfect stance! hahaha Then John took it way up and over with gear to put in that last one. Probably won't repeat that one. lol
Love Todd's Dummy Dome goodness!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Somebody ain't in very good drilling shape!
GET some!!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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LOL, classic. Be sure to tell John that, cuz I was ready to drill like 5 more bolts.
:)
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:24am PT
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So stoked, just did put in my first bolts on lead and did them from stances. There was a route missing the 2nd bolt and 3rd bolt, so it wasn't crazy bad ass, but still pretty legit.
I had to drill a new hole cuz that one still had part of the sleeve and the cone in it.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Aug 20, 2012 - 04:52am PT
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We even drill ground up, often from free stances, right here in France, the capital of rap bolting. We have no wilderness regulations regarding power drills, consequently power drills are used in almost all cases. And although hand drilling is rare now, it was certainly the way Piola put up a great number of his earlier routes.
This is a major SE facing gneiss/granite cliff, close to Chamonix. It's about 350m, (8 > 11 pitches) at its highest point and has about 20 routes from 6a+ > 7b. Most are fully bolted though a couple are hard trad/mixed. The summit is at 2600m. Walk in - in approach shoes - no snow/glaciers etc. You might just see another couple of parties up there if you're unlucky.
... and a view to die for:
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Use a pin,....save your skin.......(use a chock...save the rock)...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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Mike Waugh, hand-drilling a quarter-inch hole on the FA of Dark Ages, West Farthing Wall, Tuolumne, 9/2012.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sep 30, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
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Drilling quarter inchers in Tuolumne in 2012? I hope that bolt is now 3/8".
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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Nice picture of Mike Waugh!
Here's a video about how to equip a route.
Nice hammer dude.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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All that yappin in that video just to place a bolt. ^^^^^^
Cripes !!!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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stance bolting
Whatareyoudinosaurs?
[ Todd, that pic above looks like you're practicing up for a run at Karma... ]
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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^^"rapbolting".com what a loser
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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Just what that rock always needed - a bolt or two four feet off the ground so we could make a video for groundbolting.com...
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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I knew you guys would love that video!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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There is 11c friction climb just to the left of serenity crack. I wonder how the hell did FAtionists drilled from stances. No clue!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Nov 27, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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groundbolting!
safety first!
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bob
climber
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Nov 27, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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Vitaliy, when I've done some FA's of 11+ no holds I just start to drill, drop drill try to stay on, pick up drill, tap two or three times then whip. I then repeat the process until the drill bit is in far enough and I think I'm about to whip and it holds. (daisy w biner around bit) Its a bit scary and I only do this if I can take the fall. Otherwise I just have to believe and keep believing.
Bob Jensen
edit: unless I can get a hook!!
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 27, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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I figure a hook is a stance....
Note: The special K. Solem hook... it will hold where NOTHING else will.
This is a 12C....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Nov 27, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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That's the spirit Bob!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Nov 27, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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A hook is totally a legit stance in my book. I'd rather drill from a shitty stance than from a suspect hook any day. At least that way you'll know when you're about to take the ride.
Vitaliy;
Creativity is the key, I drilled a bolt hanging from my nut tool last weekend. It was a wildly flexing flake, but supported enough weight where I could milk a horrible stance enough to free my hands to drill. No way I could have done it without that hook. The bolt before that one was drilled where there was no real stance. Only a left and right facing flake about five feet apart where I found I could do the splits and use my lack of flexibility to free my hands.
Sometimes, like what Bob said, you gotta go with the tap,tap,tumble method. I've spent hours trying to get a drill bit deep enough to where I could hang from it.
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MisterE
climber
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Mar 10, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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Bump!
Stance-drilled a sketchy 1/4" in soft rock with a questionable hanger and topped it all off with a weird tie-off...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 10, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
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Way to put that old Leeper to good use.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Mar 10, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
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like!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 10, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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Pretty darn sketchy- if you ask me.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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since March?
Really?
No posts?
For fuk sake.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Here you go Munge......
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Munge,
too busy trying to figure out how to 1) stand on that crap foothold, 2) hold the hammer in my right hand, 3) hold the drill in my left hand and most importantly, 4) NOT FALL to post up.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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That's the stuff!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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5) Look determined and ruggedly handsome in pics of yourself stance drilling.
Of course 4), so that you may post these up also.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Put up the start of a crack route a couple weeks ago but had to drill the anchor for p2. My stance was the same size as my foot and I was still shaking like a leaf!
I'll take a hook on a daisy any day
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Popping one in while trying not to pop one out.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 27, 2015 - 07:26am PT
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WOOT!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 19, 2016 - 11:15pm PT
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what in the feh is wrong wit u peoples?
Post em
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Peater
Trad climber
Salt Lake City Ut.
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Dec 20, 2016 - 12:06am PT
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Munge
I think I totally agree with you though I didn't read everything so maybe not.
But most really hard placements where made before film was invented.
I've seen some really bold placements, but my brownie was too much to take along. (a brownie is a type of camera that nobody uses any more, since the 40's).
Seriously, though ignore my gobbledygook above. I have the highest regard for anyone putting in their bolts on the lead. It doesn't get more real than that.
Cheers
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 21, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
We rate the stance, not the climbing. It's all about the stances man! Ross, who's in his early twenties drilling from about an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10......no brownie's neccesary...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 16, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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Season is upon us. Have you sorted your gear?
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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May 17, 2017 - 07:38am PT
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With Erik Erikson and Levy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 17, 2017 - 07:40am PT
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My stance about drilling is that when it comes to putting up new routes, if bolts are needed the climb is not for me. It's just a personal preference and I do appreciate climbers putting up routes with bolts because I like to climb them. I really could care less if the bolts were put in by drilling from a stance or otherwise.
I have managed to do hundreds of new pitches of climbing sans bolts and will continue to seek out climbs of that nature. I will also continue to enjoy climbing routes that are all or partly bolt protected and be thankful for the effort and expense of the first ascensionists.
Rock is our playground and the judicious use of bolts opens up vastly more terrain for our entertainment.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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May 17, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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Stuntman Chad Parker installing his first bolt on a stance, on the Scott Cosgrove Memorial Wall. R.I.P COZ
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2017 - 12:57am PT
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My stance about drilling is that when it comes to putting up new routes, if bolts are needed the climb is not for me.
^^^ Have placed (after-the-fact) one protection bolt in 43 years after my partner complained people wouldn't have the two #2 ballnuts for the placement. Called the route 'Hollow Victory' as a result. Still spicy, though.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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May 21, 2017 - 01:14am PT
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Watching Ron Carson stance drill on 5.12 Dome Rock slab is one of the most bad azz things I've ever seen in the world of rock climbing
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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May 21, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Confusion between "stance" and "hooked". Lotta hooking on Dome Rock. Hard even for badasses to resist the "higher" numbers....
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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May 22, 2017 - 09:53pm PT
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Beaks? :)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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May 22, 2017 - 10:46pm PT
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cool vid and location wstmrnclmr!
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| Messages 1 - 260 of total 260 in this topic |
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