Discussion Topic |
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 18, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Recently there has been an increasing trend of climbers wondering around JTree with their dogs. This last Saturday at Josh I saw at least two unleashed dogs with climbers wondering around the desert. Another longtime Josh climber told me that they saw a ranger calling out to a climber about their dog in the Real Hidden Valley. The climber ran away but the ranger caught up with her. This kind of child-like behavior hurts all of us who love to climb at JTree.
Rules for Dogs at JTree:
The rules for all National Parks require dogs to be: ON A LEASH ONLY IN CAMPGOUNDS OR PARKING LOTS! Dogs cannot be on trails or in the backcountry for any reason.
The rangers are seeing more climbers breaking the laws and damaging the environment in National Parks. We damage vegetation with numerous approach trails, with bouldering pads, belay locations and descent routes. We, as climbers, are walking on thin ice with the Park Service as well as other land managers and owners.
If climbers keep breaking the rules the Park Service will limit or ban climbing. Believe me, the Park Service have the power and will. Remember when Hueco Tanks was unregulated to climbers? Or maybe the Park Sevice will find some endangered plant, insect, amphibian, or animal to justify banning climbing (Williamson Rock rings a bell)to punish us for our transgressions.
Please keep your dog at home. Respect the rights of other climbers; play by the Park Service rules, stay on trails, be very careful to avoid damaging vegetation, be respectful of the rangers,.....just try to be a ambassador of good will that represents climbers as responsible, humble and environmentally conscience. Otherwise we could have our assumed rights yanked by the authorities so fast that he only place left will be the some indoor gym.
P.S.
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against dogs. I love dogs. My two female dogs are better companions than most of the two legged human variety. Their more loyal, always accepting and loving, and always excited to see me. But they stay at home when I go climbing.
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bryan howell
Boulder climber
san diego, ca
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Nov 18, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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WOW! I thought I was the only one!
I was in RHV this weekend as well, and as we were cooking dinner last night, up walks a nice friendly four legged eating machine. He promptly b-lines to the table with all our food sitting out, and knocks our chips/salsa off and starts devouring!!! No owner in site or anybody to claim. We shooshed him off, but he quickly came back.(this time I beat him to the steaks to protect our meat)!!!
I called out into the night "whoever lost there dog, please come get it!"
no response. This dog must have wondered around RHV for around an hour until I finally heard some voices calling out from the back loop area for what I assumed to be there dog. no clue he had gone and was site hoping and food plundering!
Not fun for us! keep the mutts at home!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 18, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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Now see, you should have just beat the crap out of the dog, and then bar-b-qued it.
If all dogs caught in Jtree were eaten, that would solve the problem.
This is probably the beginning of the end, cause a large group of dog owners NEVER listens to reason, and they will take their dogs any where they want, no matter how it affects everyone else. They think this is their god given right.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 18, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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Do yer doooty wes, eat a dog at a climbing area today!
Oh, and are you really a moron, or do you just play one on the internet?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 18, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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Oh, and are you really a moron, or do you just play one on the internet?
Wes plays other people on the Internet.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Nov 18, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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I concur.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 18, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
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No moron, though.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 18, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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Wes plays other people on the Internet.
That's a sad life.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 18, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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perhaps you could have said in the title "if you can't follow the rules leave your dog a home". I don't take offense to your post. I will still (have) to bring my dog to JTree. But I realize I am limited. Though... I'm also lucky that I have a place to drop her off if needed. For instance, I can climb all over Indian Cove... err... well lots of places.. and have my dog with me legally.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Nov 18, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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Of those dogs wondering around Jtree, did any of them figure it out and quit wondering? Or did they just want to see the Wonderland?
(Sorry, had to do it.)
Seriously, was one of them a small, longish haired, really cute tri-colored girl? Accompanied by an owner of about the same description? (Sage & Laura) If so , I'll call her and talk to her, again.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 18, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
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Go home....heal.....roll over.......go home.....
I believe dogs should be left at home......but if you don't have a home , or any friends.....and you just have your faithful mutt.....well;......I feel differently about that situation;.....and alot of people find themselves in that scene.....it's a tough call.....
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 18, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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well as a dog owner and a climber who enjoys his dogs company, someone is going to have to 'splain to me the logic of these fire alarms going of around here.
how exactly are climbers with dogs a threat to climbers in general?
do climbers smoking pot also inspire threaten your access?
both activities draw the negative attention of law enforcement, but typically only upon the participants, as far as i can tell (i invite you to prove me wrong).
so dog owners who break the rules wrt dogs risk fines, increaed fines, and possibly harsher dog related rules in the parks, but nobody is going to revoke access to CLIMBERS because a few of them have dogs, they may just raise the fines if they decide that we need a greater incentive to leave the dogs at home.
too bad every dog is not my dog...
(poor guy is losing a toe tomorrow!)
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bryan howell
Boulder climber
san diego, ca
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Nov 18, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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the dog that visited me was a medium type dog, darker. It was dark outside, but I believe it was black/brown. looked like mutt. as stated, no owner in site.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 18, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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I'm telling you, the answer is Bar-B-Que.
Dog tastes a lot better than chicken I hear.
And remember, every dog that is eaten will never trouble you at the crag again.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 18, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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I never could understand the severe restrictions placed on dogs in a place like Joshua Tree that's lousy with coyotes.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 18, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
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He wrote: ". . . how exactly are climbers with dogs a threat to climbers in general?"
Not the point. Some don't like dogs. The "reason" they don't like dogs is that tastes differ.
JL
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 18, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Teddy in noncompliance of the leash law of the Gunks....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 18, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Separate from the benefits they provide to (some) humans, and their impacts on humans, dogs can have impacts on wildlife. The impacts are both direct (chasing, barking, hunting, even killing) and indirect (scent). Plus digging and other such behaviours. To vulnerable wildlife, dogs smell the same as coyotes and wolves - predator! And wildlife have extremely sensitive senses of smells. Coyotes are native to Joshua Tree - dogs aren't.
When dogs have or might have negative impacts on the natural environments of areas that are ostensibly being protected for those natural values, that's a valid reason to manage or prohibit them. Even their scent spooks mountain sheep and other animals, and I've never heard of a scent-less dog, on leash or not.
Looking at it another way, coyotes like to eat dogs. In much of Joshua Tree, unleashed dog = Wil. E. dinner. So maybe people should be allowed to let their dogs run free there - as long as it's at night.
We have enough unavoidable impacts on the places we cherish. Why bring avoidable ones?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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Aw come on!
The coyotes love those little ankle biters.
Midnight snacks for the coyotes
Midnight entertainment for everyone within earshot.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 18, 2007 - 11:12pm PT
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Throw another dog on the fire
shlap another schnake on the grill
The dogs are not the problem,
it's the clueless owners. Morons should
not own dogs. Dogs are a big responsability and a liability.
If a dog is not 100% socially adjusted with humans and other dogs, leave them home.
The coyote's will cull them if you do not take responsibility. We were hoping one particular yippy dog would attract the coyote's in Jumbo rocks.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 18, 2007 - 11:12pm PT
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Throw another dog on the fire
shlap another schnake on the grill
The dogs are not the problem,
it's the clueless owners. Morons should
not own dogs. Dogs are a big responsability and a liability.
If a dog is not 100% socially adjusted with humans and other dogs, leave them home.
The coyote's will cull them if you do not take responsibility. We were hoping one particular yippy dog would attract the coyote's in Jumbo rocks.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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We were hoping one particular yippy dog would attract the coyote's in Jumbo rocks.
Last time I was there,
he did!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 18, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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One should have a choice, when climbing, whether or not he or she wants to be around dogs. I climb in the national parks often to escape the cragging scene and the dogs. When you take your dog to the national parks in violation of the regs, you take that choice away from me. If I'm in more of a social mood, I go to the social crags, which I then know, will include dogs.
Arne Boveng
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 19, 2007 - 12:41am PT
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"Any behavior by climbers that breaks the rules gives the rest of us a bad name and adversely impacts access generally, even if it only means that some pumped-up wannabe cowboy ranger identifies climbers with rule-breakers. Surely y'all are mature enough to see that?. Once in while, no big deal, but we absolutely must self-police. And Matt, honestly, there is a quite a big difference between an unleashed dog running around and a pipe being passed around. Yes they both break the rules, but one you can't exactly be discrete about"
i disagree.
climbers get harrassed more than other groups because the LEOs anticipate we are likely to be using illegal substances. if we do not have a dog, there is no reason to search our car to see if they can find a dog...
i have a science degree (not that i am all that smart) and i fail to understand how dogs at the base of cliffs are any more disruptive than all the pack animals the NPS allows- in fact most will admit the same and tell you it's because horses have greater political clout than dogs.
dogs don't wreck the environment, people do.
if ya'll were so damn interested in the 5 feet of dirt that is up against the rock, you'd be clammering on about all the bouldering pads, rope bags, backpacks and foot traffic, and not the extra canines. outlaw the RV's and trailers more than twice the weight of a full size sedan, eliminate all those un-recycleable coleman gas canisters that get piled up by the recycleable receptacles, enforce the wood gatherithing restrictions, put a CA redemption value on cigarette butts, make the cost of access to national parks dependent on real-time demand (charge more to enter when it gets crowded), and require visitors to bring re-fillable water bottles and coffee cups (sell coffe and make water available but do not make land-fill cups available), and i will never take a dog to the craggs again, never. untill then, i'll just risk a ticket and a lecture. i will be sure to try and be highly considerate of others' experiences at the same time, but people who are disinterested in mitigating the many obvious impacts of al users are wasting their time if they direct their energy toward my impacts.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 19, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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nah, Matt they just don't like to be around that, that they don't understand... How can so many people not 'GET' dogs?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:00am PT
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Matt, I agree - there's a sh#t load of things we could all do to reduce our impacts on the environment, both at home and at the cliffs. (Excuse the expression.) And too many don't even bother to think about it, let alone act on it.
Whether dogs are the most significant impact, or one most needing management, is beyond my knowledge. Part of the problem is that they undeniably have impacts on both human and natural environments, they're easily identified, and it's not necessary to have them so as to enjoy a protected area. The guy by himself in the gas guzzler, the person who poops by the river, the cigarette butt flicker who starts a grass fire, and many others have significant impacts. But it's virtually impossible to compel better behaviour from them, even if those activities were illegal or unnecessary. And many such activities are legal if not tolerated if not accepted.
Conspicuousness, as you observe, is itself not a wise strategy. I've always found that lying low, being polite, and avoiding obtrusive behaviour were helpful strategies.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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Khanom writes:
"Chaz, Matt, etc: Are you guys really unaware of the simple fact that:
Coyote: Wild animal, native.
Dog: Domestic, DOES NOT BELONG IN THE DESERT."
I'd buy that logic, IF it were applied consistently.
Are pack horses native? Or are horses domestic?
I'd be happy if dogs and horses were allowed access/restricted to the same places.
The fact that horses and dogs are treated differently, for no good reason, is discrimination, plain and simple.
Us dog owners are the new niggers, as far as the NPS is concerned.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:13am PT
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Chaz, I believe the official line is that dogs frighten and harass wildlife, and that horses and mules don't. Sounds plausible, but there does seem a lot of blindness to the other impacts of equines, or "historical" pretexts to excuse them.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:14am PT
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my dog having a HUGE impact (at an unidentified clif)
my dog raising all sorts of hell while we are a pitch off the deck
sending slab problems
hogging the crash pad
destroying all of JTree on a fine day
where some would like to see him for those heinous acts
locker style pause, for added effect...
one dog, one vote
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:17am PT
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I hope you are not in Los Angeles, Chaz, you are in violation of the LAW!
Joshua Tree was complete madness today. There were so many people. The parking lot for Hemingway was jam packed. I assume there were 5000 climbers on White Lightening at once.
I did not see a dog, and the coyote's were scared.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:22am PT
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kev- they generally attribute it to the "historical presence" of horses'n such
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:27am PT
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The horse lobby is huge. They are hands down the most powerful use group in the wilderness. They sewed up trail rights many years ago in the Sierra. Nothing better than sweating up a horseshit trail I always say. There are some awesome cowboy camps in the back country though.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:39am PT
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yikes!
that'll make ya all swelley, mon...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:42am PT
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"I take my dog most places. His happiness is my responsibility. If he bothers people, too f*#king bad, most people bother me. If they bother me enough I ask their owners to take care of them (usually a girlfriend or parent). If my dog bothers you, ask me to take care of him... I'll handle it. If you prefer to kick him (or shoot him) because he pisses you off... I'll most likely kick you because you piss me off. That sounds like a lovely scene. If a dog bit me, I'd grab the biggest rock I could get my hands on and start bashing his skull."
Thus answering the moron question very nicely.
I guess inflicting your dog on other people is one of your god given rights then.
What are you going to do if your own dog bites you?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:46am PT
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LMFAO Swelley mon I've been bit too many times myself.
I had a large rotweiler try to bite my mountain bike tire as I was riding. Every time I rode past his house, here he would come a running and barking. I was mighty glad it was the tire and not my leg.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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So swelly, did you marinate that mutt a while, or did you just grill it raw?
Just think, if every non-dog owning climber Bar-B-Qued a dog at the crags, pretty soon dogs would not be a problem. In fact, there would be a crag dog shortage, and some enterprising person would start selling dogs of the most tasty variety near the popular crags, and the economy would be saved.
All those Koreans who have been eating dog for eons would take up climbing just for the food!
And since Long pointed out that tastes differ, I'm sure you can roast em in a dutch oven, or even try dog tartar, a sort of dog sushi if you will. In fact, maybe Nature can put something together for the next sushi fest!
Little Yappy Dog From Hell goes great with wasabi, I've heard.
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Cuz
Trad climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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Mtnmum - “Joshua Tree was complete madness today. There were so many people. The parking lot for Hemingway was jam packed. I assume there were 5000 climbers on White Lightening at once.”
Should of drove up 2 more turnouts and joined us at Course and Buggy and Sow Sickle. Only one car there besides us and no people or dogs. Did see a coyote in its native environment as we left after sunset, standing in the middle of the road waiting for someone to feed it!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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I've had climber's dog (even some that post on this site) come after me barking an ready to bite. I was not hostile. I was not near the climbers or their packs. (50' away) The dog was off leash.
I've had good friends have their dog piss on someone else's pack at a crag and not apologize profusely.
dogs off leash are a problem.
I love dogs.
But for many dogs, there is a chance they will flip and bite and it is the OWNER'S responsibility to insure that dog is under control.
Strict liability applies for dog bites. Your dog bites me, I will make sure you are paying for all medical bills, assuming the dog survives the encounter.
Not hate. Just leaving it open ended, since other's have posted about how they won't mind leaving their dogs off leash or letting them bite others.
Futhermore, I will report hostile dogs off leash to LEOs if they appear to be a problem.
/end rant
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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The RCdotcommiefication of ST is official now.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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Thanks Cuz for the invite. We had a beginner with us and went to Atlantis wall thinking it was off the beaten path. It was a bit crowded there too.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:12am PT
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Come on kano, bred dogs aka domesticated dogs have not been wild for thousands of years.
I'll agree with you that most people don't treat their dogs very well, as dogs are pack animals, so they need other dogs around, and dogs need room to do dog things, and I'm sure if dog owners had to eat the human equivalent of dog food they'd throw up first.
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:19am PT
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I understand that dogs can be annoying. But people can be excessively bothered and anal about said dog. Some common courtesy would be nice on both fronts.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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Damn dog;...made him bump his head..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:26am PT
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It WAS crowded at Joshua Tree today.......(We climbed at Mongolia today;....we were the only ones there except 2 out of bounds campers near the crag...they packed up and left after awhile and we saw no others all day......)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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On belay?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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warbler, have you ever read the ingredients on a dog food bag, or a dog food can?
WEll OK, do that and just mix some up yourself. Go find a "meat byproduct" source, (that means, all the stuff you'd never eat, that gets ground up and made into dog food), mix in a lot of cereal and work from there.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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"Is that a giant pile of .....?
This dog problem IS getting out of hand in Josh."
NO, the rock at Jtree just LOOKS like giant turds.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:37am PT
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Use a dog....go to jail
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:00am PT
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Historically, these dog threads always manage to get record numbers of posts.
I'm a bit neutral on the issue. It probably depends on the owner, on the dog, and on the crag, and it's pretty hard to make rules and ethics on something where "it depends"
It's not my call and I ain't making it. NPS has already made the call so it's in the interest of dog owner to make sure their dogs are cool if they decide to push the boundaries.
I think the bottom line is that folks don't always feel comfortable and safe around other people's strange dogs and climbing is unnerving enough without that uncertainty. They don't want to admit that so they cite other issues instead.
Peace
Karl
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 09:36am PT
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Why do "climbers" feel entitled to break the rules?
you don't bring your dog into The OLIVE GARDEN Or BED BATH AND BEYOND, do you?
Then why a restricted area of a NATIONAL PARK?
a climber RUNNING away with a dog fron A PEACE OFFICER is BAD for the whole community.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Leave those pesky bastards at home tied up and forgotten, beat it on occasion to show them who's boss.
As you can see this guy is submissive as a kitten.
I bring my dog to the park but he's to old to get around now so he hangs in the truck{his favorite spot on earth}, and we return every few hours to walk the old dude and let him stretch his legs. I clean up after his craps and he does not roam free. Hasn't this topic been hammered to death already. Is this your biggest problem when you go to the park? How about being a tax payer and not being able to enjoy your park for more than a 14 day stay in high season?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:21am PT
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Dogs actually are allowed at B/B/Beyond. They even have pads to fit the shopping cart bottom so you can put Fido in there(which they prefer, rather than having Fido on the ground where his tail might swoosh over a precarious pile of overpriced product, or a kid might run up to "pet" Fido, start poking at him and get bit, thus making BBB liable in a lawsuit, etc.).
I bring Teddy with me to the Gunks. He gets, every single time, at least a few people who exclaim how incredibly well-behaved he is. I can't take any credit for it; he trained himself.
But! I have discovered that he IS a Sandwich Hound! At present, his count for smoking out, retrieving and devouring sandwiches at the crag is at 10.
That's a lot of sandwiches!
Now, before you get snitsy..... These sandwiches have all been feral sandwiches. Their person has either dropped part and left it where it lay or tossed the unwanted end off into the talus, where Teddy has definitely been known to risk a limb or two in his quest to keep the crags clean.
One day I was down at the end of the Nears(guidebook routes end, that is), and all of a sudden, off he went, bounding down the hillside. That is some steep, overgrown talus, and I was terrified he'd take a misstep and go rolling all the way down to the deli.
No amount of calling him back would stop his trajectory or even slow him down. Finally, he got to a spot, stuck his nose deep into some jumble of brush and began rooting around.....
It happened that Dick Williams and crew were down there, taking notes and getting climber consensus on some new routes he put up. As I am trying to get my dog to stop, worried I may have to go down and get him, Dick says maybe he's found a dead animal.....
ICK!!!!
Finally, Teddy gets what he's after, and lifts his head high, proudly displaying his catch. A HUGE chunk of sandwich.
Dick goes...."uhhhhh, oh yeah.... I tossed that down there last week."
Note: Teddy has never once snagged a sandwich or other food that someone cared for(wellll....once he did bit the tip of Colorado Mike's cold pizza slice, but Mike had been sitting there, in the cab of his truck, talking with his hand, waving the pizza back and forth..... I guess Teddy just couldn't help himself. It was like "Enough already! Use it or lose it, bud!" Luckily, Mike also had a dog, and saw the humor of the situation).
I will say this - When I am on a route or belaying, Teddy is on leash and tethered. I personally don't like it, at all, when an unaccompanied dog comes round while I am climbing, even though so far there's never been an altercation. So far every time these dogs have been the sort that don't mark or start barking or anything, but there is always the fear that one day it will be one of those awful dogs some of you seem to run into each and every time you're out there.....
As for JTree - I haven't ever brought him out with me, mainly because of the flight issue, but also because of the restrictions. This last trip, I was off on a solo day, and exploring the area west/northwest of Barker Dam. I turned around, at the base of "Little Hunk"(I think - too lazy to go look it up right now....) and a bobcat was sauntering past, 15 to 20 feet behind me. I was really glad I didn't have Teddy along with me at that moment.
If he were there, he'd surely have barked at that cat, thus peeving the cat, no doubt. If he had been off-leash, I don't doubt he would have went off on chase. "Wow! That cat's bigger than Orangie at Camp Slime!" he might have thought..... And that would, most likely, have been the end of Teddy.
I learned a lesson at that time, luckily without any painful experience.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:46am PT
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Two comments:
First, on pack animals. It is my understanding that PERMITS are required for pack critters, and that it is a FEE process. Is this correct, and does it apply to one person/one horse, or only "guided" pack animals?
Second, I love dogs as much as the next person, but the RULES are for everyone in a National Park. I understand the whole "pirate" climber persona, but what if EVERYONE visiting Josh, Yose, or YNP thought that "they" were pirates as well and brought Fido along--7,000,000 dogs over the course of one year, just at those three parks alone !!!
The rules may suck, but a National Park (Monument) has them in place for the MASSES.
Take the pooch to one of any other gajillion climbing areas where they are welcomed, don't spoil someone else's Nat'l Park experience by being rebellious and disrespectful of the RULES.
edit: Then there is the whole legal liability issue, but that is another thread altogether.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 19, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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As a crag dog mine has a single bad habit, which I won't mention here, but he would never think of stealing your lunch or befouling your gear or the trail.
Befoulment in fact has never been an issue with him because he likes to go way off in the woods, weeds or whatever other micro-wilderness privacy he can find. I didn't teach him that but it's a very helpful trick. Our backyard and its trails never need scooping up, nor do the crags when he visits.
Wish other dogs knew this trick.
Edit to add: he only hikes where he's legal.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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While we're at it can we solve the problem of the wandering screaming child of the irresponsible parent?
Also I find Teriyaki a good alternative when you're running low on BBQ sauce.....
Mmmmm finger licking good
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scooter
climber
Moss Landing CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 01:55pm PT
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I was climbin' with myself in J-tree and a collie type mutt came and hike around and while i soloed watched me. Funny thing is it knew where to meet me at the walk offs from the climbs. I fed him some granola bar, wierd, he liked it. Gave him a little water and after a few hours and a few routes later he left. Months or even a year later i was going to try to solo Zodiac and that same little mutt was at the base. He seemed to remember me. So I fed him some granola and gave him a good pet. happy that my pal was there. Few hours later a well known famous climber type guy, rapped dowm from attempting to free a variation to the left of the 1st pitch of Zod. It was his dog. Ha. No wonder it knew the walk offs.
As far as i am concerned break all the rules you can, dogs too. Maybe a few more dogs up in Tuolumne would help that pesky belding ground squirel problem.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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People are overly sensitive, if you ask me. We live in a pretty comfortable world, and yet everyone finds something to get offended about. A well-behaved dog, which most are, is not a big deal, people! Get a grip! Chill out!
Regarding wilderness impact, uh, in the opening post a dozen things are mentioned that climbers do badly NONE OF WHICH HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOGS! Maybe we should ban humans and allow dogs?
Regarding horses - yup, better lobby, and I think the impact of horses is far WORSE than dogs. Horse poo contains all kinds of seeds which can and DO germinate into invasive species! Invasive species are far more detrimental to the environment than a few dogs chasing squirrels in the 0.1% of the park that happens to be already heavily impacted by a trail, road, and humans.
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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scooter said
"As far as i am concerned break all the rules you can,"
ok, whats your address? i wanna come over and get a new tv, and, possibly a computer.
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the-shoe
Trad climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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The plain and simple fact is that with in the National Park system there is a duty to first and foremost help the ecosystem of said park to thrive in adverse (I use adverse because no National Park in this country isn't filled by millions of tourists every year) conditions.
The fact that we are still able to partake in these areas is a privlidge in and of it's self.
The truth of the matter is that these areas are very fragile ecosystems and the park systems have found a manageable way to grow and maintain the parks with our excistance. We have to remember that neither dogs or humans are indigneous to the desert enviroment. It would appear from the lack of respect from visitors to the park and their dogs, that the park service has found it more and more difficult to maintain and peserve the delicate balance of viable ecosystem and park.
In my eyes we have a duty to not take advantage of the areas that we are permitted to climb in. With how large of a foot print man kind is leaving through out the world you would think we would be happy to do what is asked of us by the people who are actualy doing their part to ensure there is a natural world for generations to proceded us.
Honestly, I think it is time to stop our bitching and to stop feeling so slighted by every rule adjustment in every park around the world. It is time to man up and take some responsiblity for the world we are creating and leaving behind for others. Plain and simple if the people who help perserve these areas ask you to leave the dog home, leave it home. And if you really need to I am shure you can nail yourself to a cross at the entrance of the park to prove your point about how unjust this is to you as a dog owner. Look closely around it's not only climbers, too many tourists are walking their dogs without leashes. We need to stop thinking as climbers that this is our park! It never was and never will be. Do your duty to help or stay home, please.
J-Tree being all the poor climbing stereo types it is, is still one of the few natural desert ecosystems that is thriving due largely in part to the national park system. Believe it!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Gotta lock up those damn coyotes before they ruin the backcountry too!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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"That said, I don't take him to Yosemite, JTree, Castle Rock, or other areas that have restrictions. I minimize his weed impact by removing any burs, etc. I don't let him dig or bark. And I keep him out of people's stuff."
This is common sense. If everyone did this, there would be no issue. The problem is that Wes is in the top .001 percentile of intelligent dog owners. Last time I was at RHV there were 4 (thats right -- FOUR) unleashed dogs running, eating my lunch, f*#king eachother, barking, snapping at people, and being nice and quiet. Your dog is cute, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want your dog to come lick them (or in my case, run onto my lap while I'm at a sit start, his big ass tail whapping me in the face).
Leave Fifi at HOME in JT or any other national park. If you have no one to leave him with, or he's important enough to you that you HAVE to bring him, go somewhere where you won't find other people.
Not the Thin Wall.
Not the Short Wall.
Not Hall of Horrors.
Where people aren't going to be bothered. If I see unleashed dogs, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
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scooter
climber
Moss Landing CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Bee- Daisy Dog would attack you. After that we would feed you to the Great Whites that live just over the dunes. Did you hear about the attack near Monterey in Aug.? Well, it was only 5 miles down coast from here. 13-15 footer. Since you weren't a local, none of the surfers here would help you either. They are extra mean. We may even tell them you are from Boulder. If it weren't bad enough already.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:37pm PT
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Take a deep breath and go warm yourself some milk to cry into.
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spud
climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Well, one could always start a doggie day care in Joshua Tree, just for climbers in the Park--or place misbehaving dogs in the Iron Door.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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"Your dog is cute, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want your dog to come lick them...
... If I see unleashed dogs, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass."
Right, chill out, what was I thinking? This is America! I should just start getting overly offended too! Let's see, what bothers me that also happens to be illegal in JTree?
Your party is fun, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want to hear your party in the campground at night.
... If I hear any noise 1 minute past 10pm I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
Your pot is a good time, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want to smell your nasty pot-smoke,
... If I smell any pot, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
Your camping group is a fun, and only to YOU. Just assume that its unfair to the other 6 billion people in the world that you have a 7th person on your site!
... If I notice any sites with any extra people, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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A.C., you're killin' me with the pics...quite appropriate.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
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You're absolutely right, Cleo.
Climbers that break the law bug the sh#t out of me. Guys who light up a freeway flier in populated climbing areas aren't being cool, they're breaking the law.
Just as I don't give a sh.it about your dog, the national park service doesn't give a sh.it about your climbing access.
But be a friendly guy. Take your dog everywhere, because he is just so cool. Roll a fatty on Swan Slab while your at it, and have 15 of your best friends play the bongos till 4am in hidden valley while the loser old guys are trying to sleep. Heck, bring a Dijeridoo, a 24 pack of Natty Ice, and a ghetto blaster big enough to draw the whole cast of Pimp My Ride into a little break dancing session. After all, its not about what is illegal or extremely annoying, but about how 'cool' you look. Being a badass climber and sticking it to the man is cool. God I love high school.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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It's civil liberties vs. not-being-offended.
We give up our civil liberties all the time to promote a less offensive, or safer, or more fair society... in the case of speed limits and laws prohibiting murder, I agree that the rules are a good thing.
In the case of dogs too, I agree, provided dogs are prohibited based on scientific reasoning and real environmental detriment, or, if to make the place safer. Problem is, most prohibition on dogs is NOT based on scientific reasoning, and the vast majority of dogs are not unsafe... NPS has a BLANKET RULE on dogs, and it doesn't make sense. Now, there are areas that do make sense to ban dogs, for example near ground-nesting birds, and in that case, I'm happy to comply and even to help enforce!
Wes has got it right... you're annoyed by the dog, but someone else is annoyed by you, or annoyed to not have a dog. Who's more in the right? I say neither person, unless that dog is causing trouble (coming over for a sniff does not constitute trouble, sorry).
Regarding parties, smoking pot, and "being cool"... I don't do any of those things, but WHO CARES!?!? So I have to put some earplugs in to go to sleep while people chit chat around their campfire until 1am, big deal.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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civil liberties hijacking...
any else notice that the more "liberal" a place is, the more bans, rules, lawyers, stupid lawsuits, etc?
crow, in wyoming if your 6-year old wants to set off a pack of fireworks on the school soccer field in the middle of town, it's ok!
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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here is your science, cleo
R. A. McArthur et al. (1982 – see C. Sime 1999) conducted human disturbance trials in which a person approached a group of bighorn sheep: alone from a road, from the road accompanied by a leashed dog, and from a ridge away from the road. The strongest reaction (milling, fleeing) occurred when the sheep saw a human with a leashed dog. There was no evidence of habituation in repeated trials. McArthur et al. (1982) concluded, “The presence of dogs on sheep range should be discouraged.”
Some people do not like to encounter a dog, even a leashed dog (P. T. Corkery, San Francisco Examiner, March 28, 2003). Some non-dog owners are made uncomfortable, even frightened, when a strange dog comes close, barks, or shows aggression. Since dog owners consider close contact with their dog to be a pleasant experience, they may think that everyone enjoys this too and not be sensitive to the experience of other park visitors. (Chester, 2003).
Dog Owners
Public lands managers have found that even where dogs on leash are permitted on trails, owners often allow their dogs to run free. In a survey conducted at Angeles National Forest, where dogs are allowed on trails as long as they are on a leash, 90 percent of the dogs observed on trails were off leash (Chester, 2003).
Disease and Parasite Transmission by Dogs
Dogs can transmit a number of pathogens to humans and wildlife via feces, through blood-sucking insects, or directly to other species. Toxocaria can cause blindness in children. Parvovirus affects other canines, and was the source for wolf-pup mortality in Glacier National Park in the early 1990s. Muscle cysts (Sarcocystis spp.) affects ungulates such as deer and bighorn sheep. Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects the kidneys and urinary tract of most mammal species. Parasites, such as ticks, keds, tapeworms, and fleas are well-known problems in dogs that can be passed to other animals, including humans. (Chester 2003).
cleo: http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parkmgmt/dogs.htm
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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Occaisionally, a desert tortoise, a federally listed threatened species, is found to have been chewed on by dogs.
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spud
climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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This is getting completely out of hand!
You all need to get
A SEX LIFE!
I hear LOCKER is available.
As Tom Robbins said
"ERLICHDA"
LIGHTEN UP
THERE ARE MORE PRESSING ISSUES THAN DOG SH#T AT JTREE
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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My dog is a chronic sandwich thief. She strikes like lightning. Watch out.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Not when you step in it.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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Yo Gdavis,
You have so many camping options in J-tree. If you don't like the noise (or dirtbags) then go camp in Jumbo, or the cove, etc. HV is clearly a party scene so don't go there if you don't want noise late at night. Go sleep somewhere else. It's not as if there are late night parties elsewhere in the park because the tool stops them. We've been harassed because we were playing an acoustic guitar at one of the most 'remote' jumbo sites before by the man at 10 PM on the nose. No yelling, no singing, just mellow guitar!
So what do I do? I camp elsewhere if at all possible, if not I guess I have to be quiet. So if you go to HV then accept the noise or go camp elsewhere.
Same thing is true more generally, don't go to a place that has a scene you KNOW you won't like (by choice when other options are abound) then complain about it.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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Thank you, beebuh, this is getting to be a much better discussion, so lets talk about all these points, ok?
>"R. A. McArthur et al. (1982 – see C. Sime 1999) conducted human >disturbance trials in which a person approached a group of >bighorn sheep..."
Fair enough. But if this is the reason for banning dogs in JTree, why then, are dogs allowed at all in the Park? And while we are on this subject, what are the major threats to bighorn sheep, anyway?
From the Defenders of Wildlife site:
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/bighorn_sheep.php
"Hunting, loss of food from livestock grazing and disease from domestic livestock have devastated Bighorn Sheep populations. While livestock is not as much of a threat as in the past, loss of habitat from development is an increasing threat. Normally, predators like mountain lions, wolves, bobcats, coyotes and golden eagles do not pose a threat to bighorn sheep. However, in areas where sheep populations are low, the death of a sheep from a natural predator can be a risk to the larger population."
Hmmm... so disease from LIVESTOCK is a threat? But PREDATORS are NOT a threat? Dogs aren't even mentioned. Why then are horses allowed, but not dogs? NPS reasoning makes no sense.
>Some people do not like to encounter a dog, even a leashed dog >(P. T. Corkery, San Francisco Examiner, March 28, 2003)."
Uh yea... there are lots of things that lots of people don't like. Duh. This goes back to my chill out and get-a-grip argument. I encounter plenty of things that I dislike every day, but that doesn't mean I think those things should be banned... I deal with it.
>Public lands managers have found that even where dogs on leash >are permitted on trails, owners often allow their dogs to run >free...
I'm not sure what the point of this one is. A leash law would at least be a compromise and give dog owners a better option. I bet if I took a map of any park, geographically bounded every trail, road, and overlook by 100 yards, you'd be looking at < 1% of the Park's area... e.g. even if the dog is off-trail, it really ain't much of an impact.
>Disease and Parasite Transmission by Dogs
>Dogs can transmit a number of pathogens to humans and wildlife >via feces, through blood-sucking insects, or directly to other >species. Toxocaria can cause blindness in children. Parvovirus >affects other canines, and was the source for wolf-pup mortality >in Glacier National Park in the early 1990s. Muscle cysts >(Sarcocystis spp.) affects ungulates such as deer and bighorn >sheep. Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects the >kidneys and urinary tract of most mammal species. Parasites, >such as ticks, keds, tapeworms, and fleas are well-known >problems in dogs that can be passed to other animals, including >humans. (Chester 2003).
Um, ok... cross-special diseases are sort of the case with any organism, including humans. Now, can you provide statistics and facts that prove that these above diseases are being transmitted from dogs to wildlife and seriously impacting their populations?? Real impacts, real facts, not "a dog might possibly transmit some horrible disease, or maybe a flea." Having said that, this is the strongest argument in the bunch, and one worth looking into further.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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kev, you going to Josh for t-day?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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The total lack of understanding of logic displayed by the pro doggos, along with the fact that this is the 9,476th dog thread ans still nothing has been accomplished, brings me to this:
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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Bluering,
Yeah I'll be there. Got your msg to late on sat.
Give me a buzz tonight....
kev
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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"
You have so many camping options in J-tree. If you don't like the noise (or dirtbags) then go camp in Jumbo, or the cove, etc. HV is clearly a party scene so don't go there if you don't want noise late at night. Go sleep somewhere else. It's not as if there are late night parties elsewhere in the park because the tool stops them. We've been harassed because we were playing an acoustic guitar at one of the most 'remote' jumbo sites before by the man at 10 PM on the nose. No yelling, no singing, just mellow guitar! "
Thats totally true, however I was merely commenting on the fact that certain things that are against the 'rules' (ugh buzzword) are ignored because of the place. Reminds me of the last time (last time? every time...) I'm in Camp 4 the guy next to me has to light up. I don't smoke, I don't mind if people do, but blech smelly. I mean, I COULD camp in Upper pines, but that doesn't mean that lighting up in broad daylight in a crowded campground is ok. Like, if tourons started having picnics at the base of popular routes and keeping people from climbing them, we COULD go somewhere else, but rather just have everyone be civil eh?
Sorry if I offended cool dog owners, but fact of the matter is too many boobs out there are ruining it for the good ones of ya. Just like I get pissed at climbers who solo delicate arch and put a full page ad of it in a climbing rag (SICK SEND BRO!!!!111 not.). Bad dog owners don't speak for everyone, but unfortunately, I never see the well behaved people. Or dogs for that matter.
In all honesty, the parks service feels the same way about climbing. Most parks personnel aren't climbers, and their #1 priority and job is a congressionally (or state) mandated order to preserve the wilderness for future generations. If it gets to be a headache they will just turn it off like in Arches, or make up some lame animal to protect (MYLF or MILF? I forget) to close a crag.
Sometimes I wonder if the NPS had their way El Cap would be a safe, educational Via Ferrata. Worst enemy might be themselves : /
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:57pm PT
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"The total lack of understanding of logic displayed by the pro doggos, along with the fact that this is the 9,476th dog thread ans still nothing has been accomplished, brings me to this: "
"HAVIN A DOG IS ILEGAL WELL THIS ONE GUY I SAW WAS SMOKED POT ONCE AND THAT IS ILEGAL TOO SO ITS OK TO HAVE DOG"
hehe :D
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
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GDavis...
sorry for picking on you earlier...
i don't like that dogs would be blamed for losing climbing access... i think if climbing access is lost, it will be climbers who will be at fault, not dogs, though dogs make a visible and easy scapegoat.
maybe crowley will start posting huggy-huggy photos...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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"
maybe crowley will start posting huggy-huggy photos...
Dear God, I hope not! :D
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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" The total lack of understanding of logic displayed by the pro doggos,
If the others don't conform to the ideals you mistakenly call "logic" the discussion should be terminated.
You must be a republican."
More logical abuse by a dognut.
I think if you actually KNEW anything about logic, you'd be embarrassed by half of what you post. But you don't, so your precious fallacies are safe in your pea sized brain.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 20, 2007 - 04:12am PT
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"You must have just finished your first introductory philosophy class. Congratulations."
God that's low. IF you are going to be so insulting, and stoop to such crass disgusting comments, I'm not sure what I can do about it.
But just so you know, my degree and post grad work is in MATH you moron, I wish you'd stop confusing logic with the butt plugg sucking crap that you seem to love.
I wonder, can you possibly get your head out of you a$$ without assistance from the jaws of life?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 20, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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Weschrist and all dog lovers (myself included):
Do you allow your dog to sit and eat with you AT (not under) the dinner table and allow them to eat the same food?
Prolly not, because they would be distracting and piss you off.
That's how the other side feels.
edit: if you DO have them sit and eat burritos (or whatever) with you, then you are out of touch with human reality and need to go live in the wilds with them.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
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At least can we all agree that it's not ok to bring your dog to jtree if your dog smokes pot?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:11pm PT
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True, Kev, that pothead dog would rather just stay in the car and listen to Pink Floyd.
DOH ! Forgot about the "munchies"--a dog with these would be pretty annoying, I 'spose, hehe.
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drc
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
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kev,
I think my rents want me to dog sit Styopa over winter holidays. Maybe you can teach him to belay while you're down there this weekend?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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Wes, good point.
I don't have a dog, and don't care if they are around when climbing--my regular partner usually brings his 4 malamutes along.
Dogs on a leash in NPs aren't that big of deal to most people either, HOWEVER, it is those people that think that THEIR dog off-leash is fine that are the problems, because nobody can convince to the contrary. Their justifications are inarguable, yet in the eyes of LEOs, they are "offenders". THEY JUST DON'T ACCEPT IT.
I hope that you are not one of "those people" and respect leash laws AT ALL TIMES.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:52pm PT
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Dogs actually have different dynamics of behavior with each other, depending who's on/off leash. usually the best scenario (between dogs) is when both are off(so long as one or both doesn't have balls, at least).
Teddy does best off leash. He walks very fast and is used to being able to walk in an arcing manner(to scope a broader area as he proceeds). I manage this well, in the city, with a retractable leash, always being aware of people coming up from behind or toward us, and gently guiding him closer to be out of their path. (I do this with all the dogs I walk, actually).
But when I am climbing or belaying, he is tethered. When I am in camp, I have my eye on him. I KNOW where he is, and he knows he's not allowed out of eye range for longer than a few moments. If there are others in camp, he gets one chance to behave, and saty around home base. If he goes towards others, I am watching for their response(Some people will call him over). If there is food out - Teddy's not allowed to go over! He comes back, and goes in the tent.
I see a lot of dog aggression here in the city. Interestingly, not all the dogs I walk tend to get the same treatment. But the ones who aren't subservient types - like terriers - do tend to receive a bigger share of aggressiveness from some people.
There are some people who just can't STAND that a dog is in their vicinity. If one pays attention, they can tell these people by the look on their faces. Wow...the anger.....
They will wait til the last minute, then step into that space between the dog and me, and get all offended, as if I tangled them in the leash! They will put on a look of obliviosness, as they lower their attache, tote bag, sack of groceries.... and attempt to let it hit the dog in the head.
It's very unsettling, watching these people at work. I can only guess they feel very helpless or hindered in some aspect of their life. And they take it out where they can get away with it - on dogs.
Not saying that people pissed about a dog getting into their food are these sorts(I don't like getting "nosed" by dogs, or having a one root around in my gear), but I would hazzard a guess that SOME of those making comments here that seem to go way beyond what a normal person would find ....normal.... are probably suffering from some feeling of powerlessness within an aspect of their lives.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 20, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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drc,
I'd love to teach Styopa to belay over the holidays.
Maybe he'll get along with the rangers as well as we do...
Is he still peeing on crashpads?
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 20, 2007 - 07:13pm PT
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wes,
dogs are not people, nor do they deserve the same rights.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 20, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
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You guys are right! One of my pups would much rather stay in the car where it's safe...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 20, 2007 - 07:37pm PT
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I don't really understand why this has turned into such a drama-bomb. For all the crap you guys give we political types for trolling and spraying you sure have drummed up a doozy.
I have two dogs, I love them to death and they are the kind of dogs that everyone wants to steal from me once they meet them. They are smart, obedient and play well with pretty much everyone. I love to take them everywhere I can.
I still won't be taking them to J-Tree or Yosemite. This is not a constitutional issue. It's a simple rule. Don't bring your f*#king dog. When you get caught doing it you make the rest of us look like as#@&%es, just like if climbers thought that leaving giant turds on top of rocks near the Hidden Valley trail makes us all look like as#@&%es. If you DO get caught, make sure you let the ranger know that YOU are the as#@&%e, not the rest of us.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 20, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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Assaulting a a dog is animal abuse. Not letting them go to certain parts of federally owned land is not. When dogs start paying taxes they can bitch. See what I did there?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 21, 2007 - 12:42am PT
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How can anyone been involved with climbing for long and NOT see how a dog thread can get out of hand?
ALL DOG THREADS GET OUT OF HAND.
That's like, Newton's 4th law or something.
See, it's sort of this way... F = ma was force equals mass times acceleration, but the FOURTH law says
Fido = Massive Anarchy
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 21, 2007 - 04:36am PT
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Weschrist, Psycho-dog-apologist-from-hell, wrote:
"F*#kheads = Myopic Anthropomorphism"
Yes, that's EXACTLY what afflicts some dog owners. They ascribe human traits to their dogs, and anoint those dogs with human rights and feelings, at the expense of real people.
BTW, at least you had good taste in dogs, and by that I do not mean dogs that taste good. We had a Brittany who was totally incredible. More personality than most people. Smarter than most people too. One hell of a dog. Looked kind of like yours in fact.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 21, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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Looks like wes and stinky need to get a room, LOL!
Poor stinky, just you come climb anything I ever free soloed, onsight, then we'll talk.
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bernadette regan
climber
joshua tree, ca
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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bump
(for the better conversation at the beginning of the post)
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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This should be at the entrance to JT!
People and kids do way more damage than dogs!
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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Wow, bumped up after five years… (and +1 for the above sign^^)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 19, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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Bring back Wes!
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Unleashed wandering dogs in Joshua Tree usually end up as dinner for the coyotes. All dogs, not just the small ones, given that the coyotes run in packs, and are quite experienced at stalking dogs. Whether or not a dog owner cares about NPS regulations, a compelling reason to leash Fifi.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 19, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Unleashed wandering dogs in Joshua Tree usually end up as dinner for the coyotes.
No sh*t!
I have witnessed, once aurally and twice visually, dogs being taken by coyotes. In one case the lead coyote pretended to be lame and lured the dog out of camp whereupon the pack nabbed it.
Nothing like hearing a deer get taken by a big cat right next to camp in the middle of the night up in the Kern Canyon though. You've never seen a sleeping dog jump up and fly into the back of the van as fast as Guyzo's Moe did when that action came down.
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Sep 19, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sep 19, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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Poodles are people too.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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I come to jtree every winter with my wife and 2 dogs.we climb and the dogs stay in the van. it's pretty simple. climbers need to learn and play by the rules..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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I'd put money on the proposition that the transgressions are inversely age related.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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While pets are allowed in the park, their activities are restricted. They must be on a leash at all times and cannot be more than 100 feet from a road, picnic area, or campground; they are prohibited from trails, and they must never be left unattended—not even in a vehicle.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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YEAH, FAROUUUUUK. LEAVE THE DOG HOME. STAY THERE YOURSELF, TROLL!!!!!
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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I can't leave Loki at home because... Well, there isn't anyone around to feed her and do the basics. Plus she doesn't eat when we go away. She starts losing her hair, etc. It's either I abandon her which I won't do or she comes along. I totally agree about following the rules and... When I was in JTree last. Loki was either leashed the whole time with me, or a few feet near me tied to the truck. When it was getting a bit too hot and we had nothing to do. We both laid down for a nap with her head in my lap. Now if anyone finds that offensive... I don't give a damn. She is not in your way. In fact she has better manners than most folks.
I understand about rude owners and bad dogs. Once when I was with Loki, an untied and unsupervised dog attacked us. Of coarse Loki took a nice bite out of that one. After an hour a man approached and started accusing us for allowing our dog to bite his. All I could tell him is she was tied up and with us, his was the one that approached our campsite, untied and not with him. Enough said...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 19, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Slave...
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Known to snatch sandwiches, chase wildlife and fight with packs of coyotes:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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You don't know from samich snatchers!
First, the stalk...The picture of blissful ignorance.
He was too fast for me - I only got the getaway...
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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discrimination isn't pretty
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