mystery raptor over Yosemite Valley

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 14, 2007 - 11:38pm PT

out with Eric finishing up a project on Tuesday 11/13/07 and we were visited by these two mystery raptors...

all I had was my 28mm point-and-shoot Ricoh GR1...

....anyone have an idea? Debbie and I puzzled out a guess but maybe some one of you would have a better one. Here are the shots I got

hey Eric, we didn't get the identity right... I'm pretty sure...

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Nov 14, 2007 - 11:52pm PT

maybe we could identify them if you told us where you were on this mysterioso so called alleged "project"?

hmmmmmmm

hehehehe

FeelioBabar

climber

Sneaking up behind you...

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:00am PT

The Fabled Yosemite Chicken?

couchmaster

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:01am PT

falcon. The lower R pic especially looks like a Peregrine.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 12:22am PT

not a falcon... the body is too chunky and the flight was hawk like, and the markings are not falcon like (too big for a Peregrine, not a Gyrfalcon)

don't know about a yosemite chicken, is that the one that got skinned?

the project, hmmm, all I can say is that if you were driving around and saw Eric's van, then you could have looked up and seen us all day...

more details later...

the Fet

Knackered climber

A bivy sack in the secret campground

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:33am PT

Red tail hawk?

On saturday a huge great horned owl came and landed about 20 feet away from us in El Cap Meadow. It watched us and stayed for a couple minutes then took off, really cool.

Ricardo Carlos

Trad climber

Off center, CO.

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:44am PT

Ed
How about a High Altitude Sea Gull similar to the Vedauwooos species ? I am sure you saw one or two . Often seen after something wide and desperate.

Pennsylenvy

Gym climber

Fannie's Crack

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:56am PT

Not a red tail. Not with those colorations on the wings. Especially the last at right. I could only guess by elimination. Maybe later. Saw a golden eagle over my house today which is rare. We also see many different hawk species here at this time of year. I remember living right under a sharp butte in Jackson WY and one year the eagle migration was spectacular right on the ridge top. Every day I would just look up and see goldens and bald eagles migrating. Fun stuff you can see in migration season only. Curious to see if this is a strange phase hawk?

Edit: My closest guess is a peregrine. Funny some books say you can tell by it's large size (all I've seen seem small). These birds look like they have a healthy wingspan.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 15, 2007 - 01:09am PT

Peregrinsis chickensis yageris skinntis, obviously.

John Moosie

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 01:15am PT

We have Swainson's hawks.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/explore_raptors/hawks/swainson.html

The picture on this page doesn't show it, but they have different coloring at different ages.

Still not certain. Colors look opposite.

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Nov 15, 2007 - 01:23am PT

The wind was howling like a coyote while ice climbing in Lee Vining Canyon during a snow storm. Right at noon, as the weatherman predicted, the storm cleared and we had a spectacular blue sky day. As we climbed, a grouping of white birds formed a cross in the sky and held the formation for a very long time. Both of us were awe struck by the peculiar sight.

My partner I was climbing with that day, Colin Nell, was killed a few years later in Canada. When I think of Colin, I see that bird cross.

neebee

Social climber

calif/texas

Nov 15, 2007 - 01:42am PT

hey there, the fet... say, what a wonder, to see that great horned owl... i sure would have loved that, too!

my son and his buddy once rescued a great horned owl, while they were fishing... the nearly got in trouble, too... until the rescue folks realized they wouldnt have hurt it, just to bring it in, and get in trouble....

the next day, it was in the PAPER and the rescue assoc. took full credit for it... was very glad my son was not accused... it was a hugeeeeeee bird... just BEAUTIFUL!...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 01:48am PT

wow... lots of responses!

definitely not a Redtail... the distinct marks on this bird is the single dark band on the tail feathers, you can see that the very ends of the tail feathers are white, also..

and the black wing tips...

given all this, we guessed Rough-legged, it is the time of year that they are migrating through NoCal from the Arctic to South America...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 02:00am PT

no, they're the same pair in different flight patterns...
two different individuals of the same species.

Almost absolutely sure they are not Red Tails, Debbie says the banding on the tail is the key... she spent several years at the Golden Gate Raptor Observatory doing raptor migratory counts...

thought they were falcons at the time, but their flight was hawk like and they are much bigger than Peregrines, but not as large as a Red Tail

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 02:22am PT

got me... the flight configurations are different.. the bottom two pictures has them going along the cliff band into the wind... the top two they are out over the Valley... even Ravens can look like raptors in some flight configurations...

Munge... can't reveal the spot yet, but here is a big hint, Eric on the summit!

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Nov 15, 2007 - 03:34am PT

9 pitches?

Not a red tail.

Rok or Valkyrie; watch your back...

mcreel

climber

Barcelona, Spain

Nov 15, 2007 - 04:26am PT

They look like peregrines wearing down vests, that took their flying lessons from seagulls. Seriously, though, peregrines do fan out their tails like what is seen in the top photos. Based on the bottom photos, I think that any buteo can be ruled out, I've never seen a buteo with pointed wing tips.

TradIsGood

Half fast climber

the Gunks end of the country

Nov 15, 2007 - 07:04am PT

I am looking at the trailing edge of the wing tips of the photos. I am in the camp that says the top two and bottom two are different species.

But you took the pictures and claim that there are two different birds. (pair - so which pictures are of bird 1 and which are of bird 2). If 1 is top and 2 is bottom, I say different species.

My first impression was that the bottom looked more gull-like than peregrine.

Of course, some size info would certainly help. Peregrines and Golden Eagles are distinguishable from each other on that alone.

Ω

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 08:49am PT

Said van was at Reeds all day?

Ricardo Carlos

Trad climber

Off center, CO.

Nov 15, 2007 - 08:57am PT

Radical did you mean It's an immature Golden SEagulle.

wootles

climber

Ceti Alpha V

Nov 15, 2007 - 10:24am PT

Penguin. I'm certain.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 10:53am PT

Of course it will be impossible to resolve this ID from those poor photos, it is difficult to get good bird pictures hanging off belay anchors on the side of a cliff with a point-and-shoot with a near-wide-angle lens... even with the remarkable Ricoh GR-1.

Debbie says that Peregrines appear dark underneath, not light. I have also seen Peregrines in the Valley and these birds were larger than Peregrines. Also, wings are configured for flight, so many different birds will display similar wing configurations depending on flight conditions... pointy tips, etc... are difficult to use for ID (I'm merely reciting what Debbie has been teaching me over the last 24 hours). The birds didn't have a flight behavior that was falcon-like, either, but rather hawk-like...

Much of this description depends on my observations, and I am not a well versed birder.

On the route.... well, Ω I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of said van... there will be β once a few details are cleaned up and Eric gives the OK to release info, I can't do it unilaterally, that would be a violation of the age-old contract among FA team members. But it is glorious to get a route finished, and that one has been 8 or 9 days of work this and last fall... and a whole lot of gazing before... and it might succeed in being a bit less obscure than others (not that that was the goal, mostly it was to see if a route would go, and it did!).

Quaken

Trad climber

Las Vegas

Nov 15, 2007 - 10:55am PT

I would bet the boat that is a Keani Gyr and that is a great sighting. It could be a hybrid of any combo that got away from somebody within 100 miles as well.

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 11:55am PT

Ed,
The bird is a falcon, judging by the wing shape in the photos. Immature peregrines have light feathers on their wings. Debbie is not exactly correct, as the breast coloring of adult peregrines is mostly white, so they would not appear 'dark'. One other clue is if they had some vocalizations that can definitely be identified.

TradIsGood

Half fast climber

the Gunks end of the country

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:45pm PT

Ed - True on the photos. I even posted a really sharp photo here, and there was a great debate on Cooper's vs. Sharp-Shinned.

I just got lucky and took the picture from about 6 feet away with Nikon digital SLR.

Only knowing its size was enough for me to tell the difference.

About 7 other pictures were flawed for one reason or another.

Miwok

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:48pm PT

The pic looks like the top of Devil's Dancehall but Lost Brother and Taft Point is to close for that.... It might be the big dome above Reeds.....

BadInfluence

Mountain climber

Dak side

Nov 15, 2007 - 12:59pm PT

Peregrine for sure. I've seen some mighty big peregrines before

Watusi

Social climber

Newport, OR

Nov 15, 2007 - 02:15pm PT

Floyd Hayes

Trad climber

Hidden Valley Lake, CA

Nov 15, 2007 - 02:21pm PT

The photos are grainy and I would not bet a penny on the identity of either of these birds, and I do think there are two different species.

The bird in the top two photos looks very much like a Buteo with a relatively short, broad tail and broad wings. The black mark across the inner forewing appears to be the "patagial mark" diagnostic for a Red-tailed Hawk. That's my guess.

The bird in the lower two photos appears to be a large adult falcon (immatures have darker underparts). It definitely is not a gull. In both photos the bird appears to have a dirty armpit, otherwise known as "axillaries," and this is diagnostic of the Prairie Falcon. The dark of a Prairie Falcon extends outward on the wing linings, but I'm not seeing this in the better right photo, which suggests that the armpits appear darker due to shading. I think the bird is most likely a Peregrine Falcon.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 02:44pm PT

the pictures are all of the same pair of birds, both were from the same species... that is definite...

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 03:44pm PT

Ed,
I'll fwd this to Lee Aulman. He'll nail it. Here's Lee in Galen's National Geographic article:

DavisGunkie

Trad climber

Davis, CA

Nov 15, 2007 - 04:44pm PT

I have some red-tails that like to frequent the large tree in front of my house, and they don't look like the same body shape. mine seem to have a broader tail plumage (plus the markings)

Standing Strong

Trad climber

the only coast

Nov 15, 2007 - 05:37pm PT

super cool thread! i need to get out some books. doesn't look like a redtail (i watch them kestreling all the time) but the shadows make it hard.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Nov 15, 2007 - 05:49pm PT

Are you sure that the birds in question are knott one of these?

Standing Strong

Trad climber

the only coast

Nov 15, 2007 - 05:54pm PT

ew, stop it!

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 15, 2007 - 06:21pm PT

I'm sure it's the rare Tuolumne Penguin. Probably migrating for the winter.

Edit: There's a colony that lives near Tenaya Lake, and they spend the winter frolicking in the snow with #46, making snow angels, and of course wearing stunna shades.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Nov 15, 2007 - 06:21pm PT

That bird kicks ASS™™™™™™™™™!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Nov 15, 2007 - 06:25pm PT

I'm in the peregrine camp based on the bottom photos,

I'd vote hawk with the top ones

or emu

climber

Nov 15, 2007 - 06:40pm PT

O.K. With the little evidence that we have at hand, Lee Aulman replies:

"they look like juvenile peregrines-----more rounded wings(tips) and darker overall color than adults..."

He's the expert...

LuckyPink

climber

the last bivy

Nov 15, 2007 - 07:07pm PT

have y'all ruled out the migrating gyrfalcon? one of the largest.

a pair in november.. hm

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 07:33pm PT

looked at gyrfalcon, doesn't fit (and somewhat rare)..

JEM

Social climber

Oxnard, CA

Nov 15, 2007 - 08:38pm PT

I'll vote for the Peregrine. Here's a pic I googled with several shots of a Peregrine in flight. See what you think ...

JEM

ewto

Mountain climber

slOwHIO

Nov 15, 2007 - 08:40pm PT

Pterodactyl.

Risk

Mountain climber

Minkler, CA

Nov 15, 2007 - 09:09pm PT

I am certainly not an expert, but that looks like a peregrine to me. Here a picture of one from September 2007 at Torrey Pines:

EDIT: Now that I look at the picture again, one looks like a Golden Eagle (upper left photo), and the other a peregrine. I have seen Golden Eagle in the valley many times, way up high.

nita

climber

chica from chico

Nov 15, 2007 - 09:59pm PT

nita's man, andy responds,

TM, great pic. The background looks more Utah than San Diego but who's more southwest?

As with the evidence to support the re-emergence of the ivory bill, I say the photo can only be inconclusive. Ed states in this thread that all pics are from the same bird encounter. If you put a gun to my head, then, perigrine.

I'll cut and paste it to my chico audubon chat room. Unlike ST, it may be days before someone comments.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2007 - 12:17am PT

the pictures are consistent with either a Rough-legged Hawk or a Peregrine Falcon, my reading of their flight characteristics would have me pick the Hawk...

but this is fun for a change on the ol' SuperTopo

there is only so much you can get from those pretty difficult photos...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2007 - 02:32am PT

it was a pretty big bird, not as large as a Red Tail though... but larger than a falcon.

I had a look at another book at Gary's tonight at Thrash Thursday and the flight description sounded like a Rough-legged hawk...

falcons look long when they fly, these guys weren't long, they were hawk like... and they weren't zipping about like falcons...

Not a kestrel...

but you'd really have to go and watch for them (probably not around if a Rough-legged as they are migrating through to So America). I'll probably be up there again, if there Peregrines, they'll be around.

Debbie is the birder of the family, she'd like it more than I... I'm usually just trying to get the picture (not very successfully at that).

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Nov 16, 2007 - 04:49am PT

I'm going with a falcon for the one.

This spring, the WDFW raptor biologist I work with every year at Beacon was saying immature female falcons can be larger than many adults and that both immature male and femles can be quite light grey colored. This came up in the context of several discussions we had about whether they had successfully fledged this year or not. I did the majority of the monitoring and ended up with some very confusing data and he felt this immature female business factored into what I had been observing.

I'll pass these on to him as well, and then he's tied into a load of other raptor guys. You might also email it to someone over at the The Santa Cruz Predatory Bird Research Group(SCPBRG).

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2007 - 11:14am PT

I feel very odd being in the middle of this discussion! as I am not a birder, just the consort of a birder... and you all have taken it up as a real problem to solve.

The hawks we have seen around this cliff all did about the same thing this pair did: around late morning or noon, starting up from below working various thermals off the broad ledges, then using the domed cliff which compresses and channels the westerly wind (as the lower colder air pours down the Merced). The "S" against the cliff gaining altitude and then they're off to their business.

It didn't seem that this pair lived on this part of the cliff. It was a pair, and they were flying more hawk-like than falcon-like....

climber

Nov 16, 2007 - 12:16pm PT

Ed,
I posted Lee Aulman's response earlier, those birds most likely are juvenile peregrines. By the way, the females are normally much larger than the males. It is possible these are siblings and are still hanging out with each other rather than an actual 'pair.'

If you can see, no one has been speaking in absolutes here, since the pics are not that clear and we were not there. However, since you are not the 'birder,' perhaps you need to stop thinking in absolutes that these birds are not falcon-like. You are hearing, but you are not listening.

scuffy b

climber

The deck above the 5

Nov 16, 2007 - 01:13pm PT

Falcons fly in all the modes.
Peregrines spend a lot of time soaring.
Isn't it pretty early for Rough-legged to be showing up?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2007 - 05:47pm PT

good point ec I agree, so in my mind that the setting is right for Peregrines... but other people whose opinion I also respect on this matter say not...

I am amazed at all the interest this generated, and I'm quite happy if these are falcons or hawks or whatever... the experience of being up on the rock and in an environment which brought Eric and me in such close association with these wonderful raptors transcends the absolute determination of their identity.

As I said, we can't resolve the id based solely on those pix, and my experience at raptor id is not reliable enough to base an id on my observations.

I've been happy with the ambiguity since the very first post when I didn't push a particular ID... thanks to all that have gotten so enthused on this. I hope you get a chance to be up there with them someday too. And I'm still interested in whatever information is provided.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2007 - 05:55pm PT

scuffy, forgot to reply, they are arriving... check out the Golden Gate Raptor Observatory daily reports...

http://www.ggro.org/dailyhw06.html

wildone

climber

Where you want to be

Nov 17, 2007 - 01:07pm PT

Right now, I'm thinking buteo but it's hard to tell. We have red-shouldered hawks and prairie falcons right now in the park...
I think my favorite explanation was a preregrine wearing a down vest who took flying lessons from a gull, lol.
Do you remember if it would flap flap flap, then glide?

John Moosie

climber

Nov 17, 2007 - 02:28pm PT

"Could have stopped hith post number two."

And miss out on all this fun. Naw....I enjoyed learning a bit more about the birds in the park. Lots of people came out with things I had no idea about. Thats cool by me. I enjoy learning.

Thanks Ed for starting this.

hossjulia

Trad climber

Eastside

Nov 17, 2007 - 03:00pm PT

I've seen Kestrels that were so big I thought they were Peregrines untill I saw the coloring better. I've also seen Prarie Falcons that were kinda small, and again looked like Peregrines.
Red Tails frequently have me thinking they are immature Eagles.

My first thought was Peregrine, but who knows? Does it really matter? This has been a fun thread.

I saw the thread title and was hoping you saw a Condor!

nita

climber

chica from chico

Nov 17, 2007 - 04:47pm PT

Andy's friend, Phil Johnson, president of local chico audubon says "I am seeing dark wingpit like a Prairie Falcon. Seems way too light overall for Peregrine. Grainy photos. Gyrfalcon?"