Discussion Topic |
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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As we walked up to Reed’s the other day, we noticed that yet again there was a party on Reed’s Direct but nobody on Lunatic. We soon concluded that there have to be many climbers that would find Lunatic to be the easier of the two. With that squared away, we proceeded to put our rope on Lunatic to run some laps.
Not long afterwards, another climber dropped in, and we offered to let him do some laps on our rope. He did, and he also offered the opinion that Lunatic is a mean size and many in the Valley consider it to be the hardest 10c.
So who here can give the definitive answer, is Lunatic Fringe the hardest or the easiest 10c in the Valley?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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it's 10c for about 3 feet
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Mimi
climber
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And that depends on your finger size.
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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It's got footholds.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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wait, i thought serenity crack was the easiest 10c in the valley?
(smirk)
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WBraun
climber
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One day it was raining off and on.
Mimi showed up at Reeds and said doesn't look climbable (I was already there at the turnout).
I said it will be OK. We did the lunatic fringe.
So what! Climb it and stop taxing your brain with all these number problems.
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Werner brings it home again!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Werner- Any idea why Barry and Bev gave the route that name?
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Impaler
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Lunatic has got to be the easiest. Sherrie's crack is way harder and is about the same size at the crux. Talking about mean sizes, wouldn't meat grinder be a bit meaner? I shouldn't even mention Galen's crack.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Your first photo, Alpine, showcases just how sexy that crack is. That ain't the kind of crack you want to take home to mom; that ain't the crack next door - that's the crack you want for fast times under the bleachers after the prom.
I thought Henley Quits was the hardest .10c, ha.
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WBraun
climber
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Steve
Bates and Bev probably thought you had to be a lunatic to do that route back then. It was at one time considered the defacto hard man test piece.
Now people free solo it every day ......
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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Sherry's Crack has bomber fingerlocks for me. Lunatic is desperation. Size matters...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I think it's (the name) a rock 'n' roll thing. I found it to be a solid size.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are claims that the expression was coined by (wait for it)....Theodore Roosevelt, in about 1913. 'In happy times, Roosevelt found the fervor of his critics on the left and the right amusing. Energetically dismissing them, he coined the term "lunatic fringe."'
http://www.independentnation.org/theodore_roosevelt.htm
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Richard Nixon et al revived the phrase in the 1960s, as a pejorative to use against hippies, liberals, anti-wars, and others. The route name may be a retort to such usage, as well as a nice play on words for a then challenging and not easily protected route.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I just remember it as a favorite tune on my "Vision Quest" soundtrack tape.
Speaking of favorite movies that I almost forgot...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Lunatic Fringe was also the title of a song by a Canadian band, Red Rider, in the early 1980s - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Rider
It was also the title of a mystery book in 1980, by William Deandrea, called "The Lunatic Fringe: A Novel Wherein Theodore Roosevelt Meets the Pink Angel". Possibly pink angels have some connection with pink elephants - not my department.
With the use of Werner's Time Warp, either book or song might have had some connection to the route name.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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I think the name came from something Barry read that described El Cap climbers of the day as being from the lunatic fringe of society.
It is one of those climbs that seemed alot easier with sticky
rubber and cams. There was a post that seems to have disappeared
about fat fingers. There are lots of sizes on this climb and you
can reach long or short to match your preferences. It is the
couple of spots where you are not jamming that seemed the
least secure.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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hmm so the Band (Red rider) who had a song called 'Lunatic Fringe,' performed on the tv show Hockey Night in Canada', small world!
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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More pics of this line if you got them, please!
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Impaler
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I just did it during the last weekend of September.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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I know you're out there...
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I always liked that route....clean and flawless. Matt's right, it's only 10c for a little bit.
AtTheCrags (ATC), jb
Edit: Photo by Phil Bard.
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Mimi
climber
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Stonemaster Calendar 1988.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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Cool photos, y’all. Thanks for posting them.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This is a great Lunatic Fringe thread. Bump
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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" . . . many consider it to be the hardest 10c in the Valley . . ."
They obviously haven't been on Waverly Wafer!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Barry Bates bagged several classic short crack routes: The Fringe, Five and Dime, Vanising Point, and Center Route on Independence. Center Route is by far the hardest, and the Fringe is almost certainly the easiest and most classic - and most repeated. Vanishing Point is hardly ever done owing to the hike and Five and Dime is a totally different climb with SLCD's.
JL
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Double D
climber
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Bump for way cool thread and pictures!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Lunatic is sweet. It has three cruxes, plus other tricky bits if your hands are the wrong size. I've taken lots of folks up Lunatic and seen them fall in different places.
First there's the smaller fingers at the bottom.
Next varying size pure jamming that's hard if you have the wrong hands
then a flaring wide bit that wastes a lot of energy for those without the skills.
big rest, then overhanging thin crack bulge.
Pump is starting to set it. More steep jamming to make it worse and then it gets thin again.
Two ways to go but now it's subtle and the locks aren't as visible as you think. Folks are pumped and it's easy to fall at the end.
One of my proudest top rope blind folded sends was Lunatic. Ironically, those final locks actually seemed easier blindfolded cause I could "feel" them better without being confused by "seeing" them
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Re: Kevin's comments on Barry cleaning the Fringe.
Barry once told me that when Bridwell showed him the original state of what is now Outer Limits at the Cookie it looked like a jungle. He didn't want to get involved in a cleaning fest so he passed on doing the FA of the route.
Bruce
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 16, 2008 - 11:05am PT
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If I can just scrub the lichen off this bump.....
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Dec 16, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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I always thought it was 10c. short crux, but 10c. Reeds was always 5.9 when I did it and we used that as a standard 5.9. Sheeries crack I always did in flyers, bomber locks.
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 16, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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Whether its the easiest or hardest might be debatable depending on hand size, but seems to be the consensus that its one of the best. Merciful rests make it doable and pround route for those of us for whom the grade pushing limits. I've done it twice, but the outcome would surely be just as much in doubt the next time I get on it.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Dec 16, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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Fringe the hardest 10c? Doubtful. Try Edge of Night on for size and report back.
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drc
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Dec 16, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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I thought the first pitch of Salathe was quite casual for 10c. Probably the easiest I've done. That doesn't detract from it though.
I fell out of Lunatic because I got tunnel vision and tried staying in the crack at the top instead of moving left on the face. Other than that it was very consistent in difficulty with hard moves between good rests.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 16, 2008 - 03:43pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz wrote: "Fringe the hardest 10c? Doubtful. Try Edge of Night on for size and report back."
Doubtful you'll get anyone reporting back. It's been said that there's no one under fifty years old who has even done Edge of Night.
JL
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Dec 16, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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This gets tricky. It's been said that Edge of Night was never
climbed by anyone over 50.
And that nobody who has ever done it is under 50.
Any more complications possible?
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 16, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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I've got recent pics, will post up later. I am new to climbing at this grade, and I have to say it is VERY size dependent. One person's bomber fingerlock is another's brutal flaring fingertip... one persons' thin hands rest is another person's rattly ringlock.
For me, Lunatic Fringe was pretty desperate and consistently hard. It did have a few rest spots, after I learned how to rest with my foot smearing on a more textured spot of a vertical crack! Actually there are a few good spots to rest a foot in a handjam pod. But it is consistently hard.
That said, the same day I got Lunatic Fringe on-site no falls, I failed earlier to do the same on Stone Groove graded a letter easier (I weighted the rope for a few seconds on Stone Groove at the crux).
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 16, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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"Actually there are a few good spots to rest a foot in a handjam pod."
That's exactly what handjam pods are...
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Dec 16, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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well I am over 50 and I never did edge of night. saw it a bunch early on but it always looked pretty desperate.
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That's Papajoto to you son!!!!!
Social climber
Oatmeal Arizona
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Dec 16, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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From what I understand, Lunatic is the benchmark for 10c. Perhaps the others are just easy????????
PJ
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Dec 16, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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I resemble that remark, Scuffy. I was probably late twenties the first time and clearly have not climbed it in the last 2.5.
However, if following it counts, then you and I have enjoyed the hospitality of an individual (slightly) under the age of 50 who has done it, assuming following it wasn't death.
Also, did you do it Will?
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Dec 16, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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That guy's only semi-human.
I'm kinda nervous of Will ,though.
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Captain...or Skully
Gym climber
Where are YOU from Holmes?
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Dec 16, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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The Fringe is knott the hardest 10c you'll do, but maybe some of the best.
Pure quality there.
There are no numbers in the groove.........................
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Dec 19, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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For those of you interested, a few weeks ago, we added 5 new pitches to "Lunatic Fringe", starting above "Beyond The Fringe". 7 pitches total. From the top of Beyond the fringe, step left 20' and climb the corner(mostly hands) for 160' to belay (2b). Step left and follow 4 bolts to 10c. crux, then gear 1/4" to 3/4", then 2 more bolts to belay(2b)165'. Climb knobs next to corner to roof(10b) past 2 pins and a bolt to another small roof (10 a/b), follow line to another bolt(5.9) and up to belay(2b)180'. Head up to flake and undercling/lieback up and left to alcove, crank up (10c/d) thin fingers to thin dihedral, 2 or 3 aid moves(pin) , traverse left 50' to belay(2b). Crank up jugs (11a), to steep slab(3 bolts) to top 60'. Rappel route(2-200' ropes). Good Luck ! 5.11a A1. pro-double cams 1/4" to 2" and one 3"- Eric Gabel
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Dec 20, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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"Also, did you do it Will?"
Followed an older aussie gent named Steve on it last year. He was close to 50, at least late 40s. He hung on the lead and I fell on the follow. Seemed pretty hideous.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Dec 20, 2008 - 01:07am PT
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You did Edge of Night, Sirloin? 'Cause there's two discusssions going on here, the Fringe is a walk, Edge of Night was a battle.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Dec 20, 2008 - 09:15pm PT
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Hey ablegable got a topo scanned?
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Dec 21, 2008 - 12:59am PT
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Hey Le Bruce, haven't drawn up a good topo yet. Leaving on a 2 week road trip in the morning. Will get on that when I get back. Will be in the Valley in about 3 weeks, on a new project. Look for my van at the Reeds pullout (blue w/ a white top, dodge van conversion). Should have topos by then if your interested. Leave a note if I'm not there or try getting ahold of Ed Hartouni, he knows how to track me down - Eric Gabel
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 21, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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BITD, the Valley Standard for 5.10c was not the Fringe but Meatgrinder and Generator Crack (for crack), and East Buttress, Middle, and Stoner's Highway (for face).
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Dec 21, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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I always thought generator was 10c because it was really a tr problem. There was a post a while back that said if you ran into it on a multi pitch climb it would be 5.11.....I disagree however I do think it is just as hard as any 10d ow I have done, maybe even harder than steppin out......All of course subjective.
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
X
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Dec 21, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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If you were a dwarf with one arm it would be harder too...so...
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tinker b
climber
your local park
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Dec 21, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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lunatic fringe, the hardest 10c???...i know it's a dead horse, but off the top of my head:
mental block,
the midget chimney on bridal veil east (although my friend with monster hands disagreed),
meat grinder.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 21, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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which arm?
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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I used to think it was named for the song. But, seeing as how the song was from 1981, that's probably not the case :)
As to the difficulty, I dunno. Seemed neither easy nor hard for the grade.
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nice shot squatch! Really shows how wonderfully jagged the Fringe is!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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i know yer out there
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scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
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Jan 10, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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About the name, I've got to believe it was sort of generic, about climbers
being part of the lunatic fringe of society and all,
but there also was a comedy group in England which included Peter Cooke
and Dudley Moore, I believe.
They may well have been part of Barry's cultural background. Maybe too
obscure?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 17, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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There will be a few people on this climb in the week ahead I imagine.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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The ever-lovin' bump...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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The crack was fringed the way it broke to form; Barry was witty and funny; ergo the name.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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To the OP from way back, two words, Waverly Wafer.
I overheard a brief mention that some folks solo Waverly.
That seems so far out there!
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Feb 26, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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thought it'd be appropriate to post this photo again....
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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the original response is right i think - " it's 10c for 3 feet " - but, for that 3 it is 10c
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Feb 26, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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No wonder Werner was able to solo it. look at them new fangled cheater shoes
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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Waverly Wafer is a great solo. I've done it.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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He is currently sans computer for a while.
All will be revealed in his own words when he gets the inclination to get to the library in town.
Hi, Selfish Man! Hope to meet you someday.
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M. Volland
Trad climber
Grand Canyon
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
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FYI - You can rap this route safely with one 70m rope. Just rap onto the bushy ledge to the right of the crack, pull your rope and let it fall to the ground, then walk off of the ledge to the right and back to the base of the climb where your rope will be waiting for you.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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It's a great one - steep jamming for the duration, all hand and finger sizes, no fixed pro. Super clean. Yosemite at its best.
Five and Dime is a harder version of a classic straight in with a little thin hand shite at the bottom. The other two classic Barry Bates routes are Vanishing Point and Independence Center. Vanishing Point probably has the hardest crux of all 4, Five and Dime is the most strenuous/intimidating, and Lunatic F. is the best - IMO. All were kind of funky in the old shoes and junk nuts.
JL
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Remember looking up at "Lunatic Fringe" sometime in 1973 and seeing an 1.5" piton at the first 11/4" crux off the little ledge. At that time there were also still munge hummocks around and in the crack. So did Barry originally lead the route with a hammer and pins? And did he clean it on the lead as he climbed it? Or were there some pins in the crack left over from some previous anonymous aid-practice ascent? I remember hearing somewhere or other that Barry climbed the route on site with a hammer and a rack of pins and only used maybe three or four of them. Like the Fog & Mist of some forgotten war!
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Got these pics of a stranger on Saturday while waiting to rap - good send, smooth as silk. Talking to him at the chains, turns out to be one of the guys from the Half Dome, Big Backpack Strategy TR.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Send him an email. Barry posts here.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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All I can tell you about it is that I only did it once, in 1986. My ex-wife -- who, for the record, I do not get along with, at all -- hiked it. I counted, she used a total of six pieces of pro. It seemed significantly easier than a lot of Valley 10d's.
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jvSF
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Feb 27, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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thanks le_bruce! awesome pics. did you get my message? should no longer be a stranger...
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Hi Steve-
I'm not sure he would get the email for a while. As I said above he told me he is without his computer right now and my recollection is that he doesn't have a smart phone.
I told him he might want to take a look at this revived thread and I read him some of the posts. He laughed at some of the theories about the route name and the cleaning, etc. When he gets into town, he'll check in and tell the story.
Phyl
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Feb 27, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Likewise, hope to meet you sometime, phylp
don't know about the rating but Lunatic Fringe felt harder to me than Heart of Darkness at JTree (which is supposed to be an 11a), and my hands are quite big so Heart of Darkness does not feel easy
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 28, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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the picture taker's picture taken
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 28, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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phylp- I hope Barry tells the tale of this now classic route name and all!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 28, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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Lunatic has three crux's
The finger crack down low, some tiny knobs are key
The bulge after the rest where you sorta lieback for a short bit until you can swing your foot up and rock on it
and the final thin bit where you can try to go straight up but it's easier to step left and reach for a rail
It's solid.
But done it so many times that I did it no falls blindfolded on top rope
But wouldn't dare lead it at this moment
Peace
Karl
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Feb 28, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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Haa ha, nice pic Ed - I think that grimace was a fluke, b/c I spent nearly every minute of that day smiling.
It was good to meet you.
jvSF - sent you the link.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 28, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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I remember martygarrison telling me that BITD, he saw some Italians cruising (fighting?) Lunatic. They were wearing hiking boots.
Now that is proud.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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The other Bates thread remind me to look back at this thread. It doesn't look like Barry ever checked in to tell the story, so I do feel that it's worth setting down that he told me that the crack was perfectly clean when he did the first ascent.
He says he doesn't have any idea how that rumor about it being filled with dirt and having to be cleaned out, got started. He says he was surprised when he looked up at this clean beautiful crack, why it had not yet been done, and that any number of you folks who were climbing in the Valley back then could have walked up and gotten the first ascent.
As to the name, he says it's more or less in the vein of climbers being on the Lunatic Fringe of the mainstream of society.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Largo and Kevin know the deal. All these Bates routes were the real deal BITD of EBs, nuts and swamis. Not to mention that your chalk bag was typically a small stuff sack with a rock in it to keep it upright. I belayed Kev on his ascent of Five and Dime as I believe he belayed me on mine. It was definately far more committing back then. One would get a nut in at the last stance before the crux and then have to run it through the crux to the sinkers before getting another piece in. It was definetly exciting. It would be a nice whipper if you popped. If your nut pulled...wow. On the Fringe I got a 4 hex at the start of the finger crack and then I believe a seven hex at the first crux thin hand section. I never felt totally good with the pro. It was okay but if you fell and it pulled you would deck. The first time I led it with cams I had to laugh. The 4 hex was replaced with a number one friend that you didn't have to worry about lifting out and then at the crux you could reach up as high as you could with a number 2 and practically have top rope until you got to the sinkers. Lets face it, Cams turned most of these climbs into sport routes. Not that this is a bad thing, its just reality.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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My old hex and stopper rack is so much lighter than what I haul around now that I sometimes think about going back to it. Then I think not.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I miss the clanking. But thats all I miss.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Lets face it, Cams turned most of these climbs into sport routes. Not that this is a bad thing, its just reality.
Chappy makes his annual post, hit and run, nice.
Well Mark, that seems pretty true, but I'm hauling more years and ass with less forearms and balls, so it kinda evens out, donchathink?
Peace, Bruce
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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My old hex and stopper rack is so much lighter than what I haul around now that I sometimes think about going back to it. Then I think not.
I'm struck by that thought often, but since my bodyweight is also rather weightier than it was in my days of pins or hexes, the extra weight of the cams doesn't seem to make as much difference.
Now, if only I could figure out how all those squeeze chimneys became off-widths!
John
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 01:07am PT
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You may be able to plug and yank by the lower crux but the 5.9+ section to finish is what always kept me from free soloing this route and still isn't sport climbing...I hope!
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| Messages 1 - 95 of total 95 in this topic |
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