Discussion Topic |
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2007 - 02:48pm PT
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Did they get it?
Any word from the valley?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I heard they're just into dancing, now.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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That was a shirtless ascent. I think it's clear they need to shave off a little more weight. Pants maybe? Heh heh.
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Alan Doak
climber
boulder, co
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Forwarded by Bill Wright, though I don't know the original author. It looks like they beat the record by 15 seconds.
----------------------------------------
> The Brothers were smoking up the route as I got my merceless eye trained on them and started shooting... they started a little before 7 so I picked them up as Alex climbed into the stovelegs. There was a party on a portaledge half way up the stovelegs who just sat there taking pics as Alex blew by short fixing for Thomas... I figured they would make Dolt tower in an hour from the start but turns out they were at the Jardine Traverse cutoff in an hour... sweet!! They raced up to ECtower and in 1 min 38 sec alex climbed Texas flake. In no time at all he was on the boot and Thomas was cleaning like a man possessed. Thomas was soon on the toe of the boot, a place where I felt they wasted too much time in the past using 4 to 5 minutes to change over leaders and shoes and such... Thomas was out of there in less than 2 minutes and they were on record pace .... they looked strong and everything was working in their favor. They smoked by a party on camp 4 and soon thomas was on the great roof... then things started to unravel... Thomas missed a few reaches and had to re-try a couple of moves and I said to someone.... "ugh oh.. Thomas is having some trouble".... the clock seemed to be running away from them and I started to have my doubts about this attempt... then one of Thomas's aid slings floated away in the breeze and they were in deep doo doo. But Thomas redoubled his efforts and managed to make the pitch with just one aider but we all knew what that mistake could cost... they had to jug with only one aider now or the leader had to aid with only one aider and there was no spare. But they charged upward in a somewhat, for them, awkward style that was not the smooth rehersed style we have become acustomed to.
>
> They went out of my view after Alex jugged to the Glowering spot but it still seemed possible ... I knew that they still had to pass the two Croatian women up high in the dihedral... we wondered ... "what if one of these women was hired by Hans to seduce the manly Alex while Thomas was not looking?!!" I just had to wait for Alex to come into view just below the alcove.... the minutes ticked off.... It was like the astronauts going behind the moon and being out of communication for 20 minutes... I waited and watched... watched and waited... I watched my wrist watch and tried to chat a bit with the people who had chosen to watch from the bridge... I kept looking and just about when I had given up hope there came Alex sprinting into view... a vast roar, peppered with monkey calls arose from the crowd... they still had a few minutes but had to bust ass to get it done... soon they were both on the last pitch with Alex racing up the last few feet to the tree and Thomas flailing at the rope with the Jumars and lunging up the the last few feet with Alex reeling him in like a giant fish on a line
>
> Then it was over... and soon a puzzled look came over everyones face... did they or didnt they??... I had them at around 2:51 but I had no idea of when they started and just figured it was about 6:45, which turned out not to be the case in the end... anyway Gleason got a call from SAR Greg who was on top and he said they passed him going down and said they had missed it by 35 seconds, having done the thing in 2:48:35.... of course we were just flabbergasted that it could have been so close after such a climb!! They were soon down and then things got more interesting yet......
>
> BUT........................ turns out that they thought that Hans and Yuji had done it in 2:48 FLAT and that is why they felt they had missed it... BUT.....Hans is nothing if not a fanatic about the EXACT time for doing things....So in a rush Alex and Max raced off in the car to the lodge and a YFI connection to get on Hans site and see if he had some change on his 2:48 time like they did... turns out he did.... 50 seconds... so it was, that the Huber Brothers, after a long and dedicated effort to climb the Nose in the fastest time, came to be the record holders by a mere 15 seconds!!! The crowd went wild!!!!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Yeah but how accurate was their watch? Could of been off by that much....
just kidding....way to go Alex & Thomas!
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Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
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Alan,
That's a snippet from the ElCapPics report for 10/4/2007
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=459477
Appears to be some confusion about what the time for Hans and Yuri's ascent was. . .
Crikey, that's how long it takes me to do a single pitch, let alone the freaking Nose!
Pretty proud ascent dudes
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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On a 30+ pitch route, 15 seconds means a tie in my mind.
Which is totally proud for that record.
I'd be surprised if the uber-bros don't take a few more stabs at getting something more definative though.
Congrats!
Peace
Karl
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Of the few brushes with “fame” I’ve had in the climbing world, a slideshow given by Hans stands out in my mind as “how not to conduct oneself in the world of competition”.
The reason there is confusion about Hans and Yugis time is because they altered it a little bit in order to get the record. At the slideshow, Hans explained that they employed a sort of “Olympic Rule” which allowed them to deduct a set amount of time for each party they had to pass along the way. Their actual time was nowhere near 2:48.
I distinctly remember this because I laughed out loud, thinking he was making a joke. He looked at me, and kept talking. Oops! Apparently this little known fact was swept under the carpet shortly thereafter.
So good for Alex and Thomas. They got the best time, and they didn’t cheat!
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Brian
climber
Cali
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BCD,
You gotta be joking there... right?
Brian
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Dudeman
Trad climber
Hansen, Idaho
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The Hubers' are the "real deal". Very inspiring!
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Who actually is the "Time Master"? It seems we must now have a title & protocall for this job. I assume it is not one of the climbers. A neutral 3rd party?? I can smell a Rolex sponsorship here!!
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Well all this talk of 15 seconds or whatever... interesting momentary subject... give us a few more days and maybe the topic will be moot...
Read the ElCap Report to get the real deal daily....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Clint - thanks. Somehow I missed that thread ;-(
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clustiere
Trad climber
Rock Ridge/ Oakland CA
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not that I really care but Han's will crush it- now try Hans and Alex that would likely do it-for the record
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Regardless, their time is bad ass. Hans' time is bad ass. Sh#t, doing it in their reconnaissance time of 5 +/- hours is bad ass.
I guess one can't help but point out the contradictions and sneaky-pete type of behavior surrounding Hans time. It seems pretty suspicious. You really don't hear of anything like that, ever, with Alex and Thomas. I think most people also are pretty aware that Hans is far more into protecting his image. Some might say fairly vain. You don't get a name like Hollywood Hans for nothing, ya know! =)
Regardless, I think the bros. will put this whole thing to rest for quite a while in a few days. Doing almost the last half of the climb with only one aider certainly slowed them down. Hans is certainly badass too. Maybe he'll come back with his own answer?
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Great! I knew they could do it! Congratulations!
I just wonder if they will do it again just to stretch the time out farther?
AF
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Of course they will do it again.
And again, and again, and again.
Just like they did on Zodiac, faster and faster.
I have never heard of any "adjustment" that BCD suggests. Please tell us more, BCD. [It will be a moot point soon, though]
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Jacqueline Florine
Trad climber
CA
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This evening I checked out this thread excited to hear of the Huber Brothers and their record breaking time! I expected to hear about these superb athletes going all out and having a couple of hours of great climbing! Why are there posts maligning the veracity of Hans and Yugi's record and slandering my husband's character? It serves no positive purpose and is a poor reflection on our community.
In an effort to illuminate, I include an explanation for the following:
BCD says, 'At the slideshow, Hans explained that they employed a sort of “Olympic Rule” which allowed them to deduct a set amount of time for each party they had to pass along the way. Their actual time was nowhere near 2:48.'
Hans was kidding. You just didn't listen to the whole story. BCD, you missed the joke and have publicly embarrassed yourself! : o
Nefarious says, 'I guess one can't help but point out the contradictions and sneaky-pete type of behavior surrounding Hans time. It seems pretty suspicious.'
Hans takes great pains to accurately report all the El Cap records he knows of. Including his own.
Nefarious continues, 'I think most people also are pretty aware that Hans is far more into protecting his image. Some might say fairly vain. You don't get a name like Hollywood Hans for nothing, ya know!'
Hans is a competitor who enjoys the game and is very active in assisting other climbers to do their best. Be careful of talking about things and people you obviously know nothing about.
By the way, Hans did not get the moniker "Hollywood" for being vain or image conscious. That is a history lesson for another day. : )
I want to give a great big American congrats to the Huber Brothers!
Great climbing on a great route! You guys are ROCKSTARS!!!
Jacqueline
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
Liberal, KS
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What?...I just Googled Hans Florine....and you know what? He's AMERICAN!!....yeah that's right, even with a name like that! Well....at least he tried. If he was German like I assumed he was...he'd DEFINITELY have stood some kind of chance.
I'm sure someone has probably already mentioned this...but wouldn't it be cool if Hans Soloed?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hey Jaqueline,
Please tell Hans we-all give him a big "hi" in Italia, and await his speed record on the Hornli Ridge ... assuming the crumbling heap of choss hasn't fallen down yet.
Please don't take our good-natured ribbing for character assasination, cuz we all know Hans is Class Act. But you'd better tell him to send a postcard to Yuji, cuz they just [barely] broke the speed record [this week].
The times are too close to be considered anything other than a "tie". So give Thomas and Alex a few more tries to pull off some faster times, then you can sicc Hansy back on the place.
Now, c'mon - don't leave us hangin'! DO TELL - how did he get the Valley Nickname "Hollywood Hans"?! Inquiring minds need to know!
Cheers,
Pete
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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My experience with Hans concurs with his wife's defense. He loves the competition but is first to congratulate and wish the next guy well to beat his own record.
If Hans was 30, I'd bet on him to go get it back. At this point, Hans isn't competing against Hubers, he's fighting time on a bigger scale.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"Could of been off by that much...."
Why do I hear that in the Maxwell smart voice?
15sec... sometimes I take all day just to remember who I am...
and Jaqueline; Hans is cool in my book ( we campolindo boys gotta stick together) I sent in some time records to his site, a bunch of stuff that nobody really cares about, but was important to me, he was very supportive and enthusiastic, good on him!
One minor gripe I sent one about shasta, "Liz and Jay 13hrs, but still in love," he just posted the names and time.
cheers!
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Degaine
climber
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Wow, amazing climbing (and climbers) for sure.
But 15 seconds? Really? I know they're all out just having fun, and it's an objective to pursue, but I personally see no difference between 2:48 and +/- even 10 minutes.
Now the fact that in 2001 the record time was around 4hrs and now were at sub 3, that's impressive, but 15 seconds...I hope the climbing media will have something better to talk about.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Pete,
Sorry. My previous post was mistaken, sort of.
Correction:
The presentation I attended (where he explained his “rule”) was PRIOR to 2002. At that point he was claiming to hold the record with the second best time, but it wasn’t the referring to the 2:48 time.
Looking at his list of speed records here
http://speedclimb.com/yosemite/thenose.htm#98
I realize that is was the summer of 2001. He told us that Oneil and Potter had set the record at 3:59, but when he tried to break that record they came in at something like 4:02. Three minutes behind. So that was when he invented the rule, and deducted one minute for each party passed. This became irrelevant later that summer when the record was broken again. But, for a short amount of time that summer he was going around claiming the fastest time, despite the fact that it clearly wasn't!
So the 2:48 could have been legit. Who knows.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Excellent clarification, BCD - thanks.
But we still need to know where the "Hollywood" comes from!
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Well, in Hans' defense, I'll just add that he has a remarkable sense of humor, and while he has a healthy ego, doesn't take himself too seriously. He's honest as they come and wouldn't have claimed the record unless he was absolutely sure. Passing is part of the game, and I'm sure his comments were indeed in jest. ("I'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids...")
I look forward to seeing what happens next in this story. Hopefully the skinny legged master will give the brawny brothers a run for their money. 15 seconds is splitting hairs, and at these speeds, like the difference between .14c and .14d in my mind. Either grade being impossible. So, Kudos to the brothers in their achievements. Perhaps they have worked out or refined some techniques that Hans, or other Americans (!?) can use to re-claim the record.
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Jacqueline Florine
Trad climber
CA
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Hey there Pete!
I will let Hansy tell the "Hollywood Hans" story.
It might cost you a pint though!
JTW (just the wife) Florine
P.S. BCD, I repeat, Hans was kidding. The Olympic rule was a joke!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The only truly significant "time" record for El Cap was made near four decades ago;
twenty-seven and a half days.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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No way Ron,
Your a little longer in the tooth than me, but the Nose in a day had to feel like an amazing feat in its day.
That ascent has stood the test of time, and is STILL quite a benchmark in ANY climber's career???
And YOU of all people has done enough aid climbing to understand the intricacies of a single push ascent via hard aid.
Many of the leads on El Cap were doorways to new places for me. My friend Flyn' Brian talks about all El Cap routes as a sort of "acid trip" experience.
Now in Brian and Ammon (Gerbie, Stanley, Bengston, Stowe, etc...) 's relative worlds speed up EVERY decision, by in my case at least, by a factor of maybe 10? STRONG WORK!!!
Now view the Nose in particular as a standard unit of work. This unit is really not changing too much via pinscaring anymore, maybe a few more fixed stoppers here and there, a booty cam, or a bomber bolt...but in general it is fixed unit.
This unit is crossing the ages for the truly elite and "olympic" caliber rock climbers to have at...
Now this feat is a marvel...so why don't we simply do that...marvel at all the players of today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
Viva da Schnoz!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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NIAD was not the giant leap that WOTEML was.
Henry had already done it in a day and a half.
Warren's brilliance was in the potential appliance to the greater ranges, and lets not forget that the previous record was his 12 day FA.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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So is the WOEML in a day more inpressive than NIAD?
Brian and that blonde American Hans would have climbed that onsight in a day if it weren't for Beyer's RR impression.
How many ascents has the Wall of Early Morning Light had total? the Nose?
Ascents of he Nose in a day, WOEML in a day?
How many climbers world wide know what Nose is? the WOEML?
You are talking about quite possibly the grandest rockclimb on Earth...position, history, access, quality, elegance, handjams, and lore of the Nose push it into a class all of its own.
The only other route I can think to compare the Nose in terms of World classics are the NF of the Eiger, and Cerro Torre?
Come on Ron, I know you see what I am saying? Love to hear others perceived world classics...
But cryky mate this is a thread about the Huber bros charging the NOSE!!!!!
I disagree about 15 seconds being a tie...these guys care enough about this time thing at this point to be very careful. 15 seconds is a big gain on the old time. A time will come that there is less and less fat to be trimmed. As competition increases smaller and smaller intervals of time will be celebrated as "improvements".
Cheers
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"If Hans was 30, I'd bet on him to go get it back. At this point, Hans isn't competing against Hubers, he's fighting time on a bigger scale."
The interweb tells me Thomas is in the 41ish-42ish range and my memory tells me Hans is in the 44-45ish range. 40's the new 30 on El Cap. I'm counting on this being true. :-)
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
North Face of El Cap
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You're forgetting of course that Germans don't age the same....I think the Hubers are only in their 20's or so in German years. I can't remember the exact conversion right off hand though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Handjam,
I wasn't comparing routes. Where on earth did you get THAT from?
The question was regarding significant time records.
But congrats to the Huber-baum for a 15 second bump.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Kudos to the goimans. What is this about some olympic time tinkering with Yujis record?? 15 seconds difference does not make two marathon runners tied, 15 seconds difference in the indy 500 does not make for a tie. Aint no tie, thats a record pure and simple(unless we obtain other information to the contrary)
sport routes are enough trouble for me. Probably could get my 50 year old frame up a couple in the same amount of time those kletterers did their record. Darn impressive.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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ok, no time tinkering with Yujis record, I get the message....seemed a bit UNreal
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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ok, no time tinkering with Yujis record, I get the message....seemed a bit UNreal
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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"The reason there is confusion about Hans and Yugis time is because they altered it a little bit in order to get the record. At the slideshow, Hans explained that they employed a sort of “Olympic Rule” which allowed them to deduct a set amount of time for each party they had to pass along the way. Their actual time was nowhere near 2:48.
I distinctly remember this because I laughed out loud, thinking he was making a joke. He looked at me, and kept talking. Oops! Apparently this little known fact was swept under the carpet shortly thereafter"
hey BCD-
did-ja notice how you were more than just a little bit full of sh#t right there?
and also, did-ja figure out yet that it was JUST A JOKE and not a claim of the record, and that YOU were too funking dense to figure that our for yourself, even with YEARS to (apparently) ponder it?
LOL@BCD
it would almost be funny, if it weren't so f*#king funny
and randy- people out there do talk some smack about the hubers when they are out there setting these records, maybe when you say "you never hear...", you are just not listening?
and btw- hans and croft were at 4:22 forever ago, before it was fashionable and all of that.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Where is the "official" starting line? and the official "finish" line?
Just wondering....
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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According to climbing.com the finish line is the tree. I don't know where the start is. I think they started from the great roof with a time like this.
-JR
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I don't care if it's 15 seconds plus or minus, until there are standardized stopping and starting points, observers, and it's well defined when to stop and start the clock (god help us) , 15 seconds is a tie on a big route like that. Pure and Simple. It's a giant stretch to call it a "Big Improvement" like HandJam does (would 5 seconds be a 'medium improvement?')
Still, it's huge that this time has company now and it's seems assured that the present record, beat or tied or whatever, isn't going to stand for long enough to be an issue for long.
congats to all
Peace
Karl
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Keep in mind that 15 seconds will differ depending on how fast you are going.
space-time continuum baby.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Hey Karl,
I guess I did say "big gain". Poor choice of words on my part. A gain, and a new record though?
Anyone know the pole vaulters name (he was undisputedly THE MAN for like a decade) who would only break his record by the narrowest margin, but he would repeatedly break his own "established" world record because it meant more cheese for him from Reebok or whoever? Instead of just breaking the old mark by a meter or something???
Not the case here, but what else is comparable to the "nose record" in climbing world? As time wears on and the "record time" consolidates itself won't 15 seconds feel like an hour of improvement at some point in time?
I hope my words don't downplay the amazing physical achievements by all participants we are bickering over. Not my trip at all. But this speedclimbing game has been played for long enough now to realize 15 seconds is not a tie.
Ask Hans if thats a tie!
My only point.
Have great days!
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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karl-
i don't really disagree, but as they are timing it to the second, being faster by seconds is still being faster.
i have no doubt that the hubers will soon break it by minutes, and then hopefully next year or sometime soon, hans or someone else will be even faster.
why did timmy and dean drop out of the nose sweepstakes?
maybe it's not as fun if you are actually "allowed" to be climbing it?
=)
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wootles
climber
I've moved
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So if the tree is the finish what's the start?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"So if the tree is the finish what's the start?"
The hazy 'rule' for timing is that you time whatever is typically done on a rope. So I'd guess, the clock starts when boot touches rock at the start of the 10d first pitch atop the 4th class pile.
Sorry for adding an extra couple of years to Hans' time. ;-) Nice to see you on the Supertaco, Jacquie.
I hope the Hubers have a safe go of things up there today.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Any word yet? If they started at 7, they should have topped out before 10.
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F'ueco
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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And who was that uber-fast party up there on Saturday?
We were on Moby Dick, and were watching some dude speed-jumaring the great roof pitch...
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Yaro
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I'm really getttin' sick and tired of all this German bashing.
Donny, are you German?
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
The Great Indoors...
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Hey....wait a sec... Yaro wouldn't happen to be short for "Yaniro" now would it?
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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last time i talked to hans i said "take it easy hans" as i left.
his reply: "no way man"
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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How the Nose is timed? This has been explained on Hans' page for years. On
http://speedclimb.com/yosemite/Elcap.htm#nose
down at the Nose line, click on the how it's timed... link - simple, right? Then you get:
http://speedclimb.com/yosemite/except.htm
which explains:
-----------
The Nose route on El Capitan:
Start time when leaving large triangle ledge at base of pitch one as per 98 topo.
The topo shows that pitch one starts at the top of 200 plus feet of 3rd class or if you come from
the left side after having done 40 feet of 5.7 and 50 feet of 3rd class.
Stop time at anchors on slab just below two foot step onto slab and bushy "flats" that lead up to big tree.
These anchors are about 40 feet down from the big tree.
There are no bolts or anchors in between the tree and this "stop time anchor".
Justification: most "normal parties" ferry their loads to the ledge at the base of the first pitch
rather than outright roping up, so the The Climb starts here for most people.
"I've always heard of people starting their time here" - not a justification in my mind but it is true.
Most parties unrope at the top anchors described and shoulder their haul bags to carry to the tree 40 feet up,
thus they are finished with the climbing portion of the program.
----------
Implication - if Alex and Thomas are stopping their watch at the tree, they broke the record by more than 15 seconds.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Also, thanks Jacqueline for clearing up the rumor that BCD started and later recanted.
2:48.55 or .xx is a true elapsed time - I recall they even had a shot of the watch on a video.
And I remember the same joke from Hans' slideshow in 2005 at Stanford.
They were trying to beat Dean/Timmy's record and had come up just short.
But they knew they could beat the record next try if they could maintain the same pace and not have to pass so many parties....
As others have said, Hans is definitely a class act and a great competitor.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Thanks for that Clint.
The suspense is killing me. What happened on the Schnoz today?!!! Anyone heard?
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clustiere
Trad climber
Rock Ridge/ Oakland CA
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this is getting silly just like the seconds in and faractions of seconds in ski racing
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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" this is getting silly just like the seconds in and faractions of seconds in ski racing"
Huh? You do realize that when you're moving at 65mph a small fraction of a second can be 40 or 50 feet (if I've done my back-of-the-envelope math correctly 1sec @70mph is 102ft...), right? That is a very significant amount of time at high speed.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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i think it's a given that the guys who are in fact trying to get "the record" are perfectly clear on the correct way to time the effort, on both ends (even if the peanut gallery on the internet is not).
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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For the luvagawd, resize that damn photo, please...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oh please, everyone here is poking a little fun at Hans. BFD. Hans is badass, as I said in my post. He does have a bit of an ego, but how many climbers don't. This is why the Hoolywood Hans moniker, regardless of how it came about is so fitting and funny to most. It doesn't detract from who he is or his personality.
It *would* be nice to get an actual time out of Hans so this thing can be put to rest, however. As mentioned, there were two different times posted on his own website alone. Him speaking up and saying "this is mine and Yuji's time" would suffice.
And to this nonsense about "15 seconds or ten minutes doesn't matter"... Bleh! It totally matters. When you're out to beat a time, and going out of your way to do things in the recognized fashion that this time was done, it completely matters. As someone else said, in any other sport 15 seconds, 10 minutes, 1.25 seconds all matters. It's competitive and all good natured. No one here can even come close to touching those times, so what would give us the right to say that it's all the same or a tie? As Snoop would say, "Nigga please!"
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Hawkeye please resize or delete that photo, its.. annoying as hell, can't read the whole post without scrolling back and forth.
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Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
Oklahoma City, OK
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Thought I'd add to the mix. This is an excerpt from an
interview I did with Hans earlier this year. It was up on
http://www.spadout.com. Congrats to the Hubers of course!
[edit] tried to fix the spacing, its that damn pic above.
---------------
Well, I’d like to ask you a little bit about The Nose [El Cap,
VI 5.9 C2]. I see that you and Yuji [Hirayama] hold the
current world record time of 2:48:30. I know there’s a lot of
people out there gunning for a faster time now. If it falls in
the next couple of years or ever, do you think you guys are
going to give it another go ahead or do you think you might
find a different partner? What are your feelings on that?
I can’t speak for Yuji, but I will go take a crack at it
again. The simple answer is yes I will go take a crack at it
again whether it be [with] Yuji or someone else. Just because
I think it’s fun and worthy of trying to one up one more time
or two more times. I think it is the iconic route of speed
climbing in the world. Synonymous to whatever would be the
Indy 500 or something. Do you want a more elaborate answer?
I think that’s really good. I was very curious because I know,
like you said, that [route] is the Indy 500 of the climbing
world. Everyone knows The Nose route on El Cap, and so I’m
always curious, ya know, if that was your time and you were
going to stick with that, or you know, that you would just keep
pushing the envelope. If someone brought it down to 2:40 would
you try to push it even further than that? Because I know that
when Yuji and you got off the route that you were super psyched
about your time that you got, but you also talked [about how]
you saw areas for improvement and saw that you could probably bring that time down even more if you gave it another go ahead.
[chuckles] Yeah, I mean I shook my head, held my head, when one
of the interviewers had the camera on Yuji and asked him if we could go faster and he said, ”Oh yeah, I’m sure we can take 20 minutes off” and I’m like “Oh god Yuji”. [laughter] Somewhat
to be, you know, holding something back, but just like I don’t
have a rule per say, I’ve found I don’t. It doesn’t seem so stylistic to go and throw yourself at the route again and again
if you already hold the record, to get it faster. It so
happens that one time when I did have the record with Lisa [Coleman] Puhvel we thought we could do faster and we actually
went slower. So I made a, not promise, but an idea to myself, don’t go out and try to improve on the record because if you’re
rehearsing it eventually people can put a big top rope thing on
the thing and people can climb the thing really fast. If you
wire every teeny tiny little thing on it, it changes, to me,
the race. And certainly it’s changed since 40 years ago. The
tools we have that we didn’t have then. I always point out to
people that the true record on El Cap is 48 minutes by the cavers. They’ve jugged the thing in 48 minutes.
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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HalHammer, I sympathize. I have found, though, that the people
typing posts which follow a big photograph have control over the
width of their posts. If you post in the supertopo window and let
the window do your "carriage return" for you, your post will be
as wide as the photo. If you hit the carriage return (enter)
yourself, you can keep your post narrow. Thus, the authors of
the posts with the very wide text lines can go back and edit
their posts by hitting the enter key appropriately to make their
posts readable.
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Plus, I apologize for the tone of my previous post.
What a prig.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I guess 2:45:45 takes care of most of this thread, to begin with. Badass on all counts!
Good luck Hans! I'm sure you'll be at it soon! This is gonna get scary if Yuji really did have 20 more (less) minutes in him and they go again together! It's already an superhuman time! I think it was superhuman when Dean/Timmy were putting up times.
Good luck to all.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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i predict someone breaks that record in less than a year
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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For the previous record time from Hans' email:
"For those who are detail oriented, in 2002 Yuji Hirayama and I climbed the route to the finishing bolts on the route in 2:48:30, we then continued on to the finishing tree to stop the time at 2:48:55. The Huber's time is to the tree! So they do have the record!"
BCD, let me explain the joke from Han's slideshow to you. Han's said (paraphrasing) they made an attempt and just missed the record, he JOKED they should have gotten minutes reduced for passing parties, then said of course that's just a joke, they actually went back and climbed it in a lower time for the record before the slide show you saw. This is not the first time you have brought this up and have been corrected on this forum. I hope you can realize your mistake and apologize.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
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"For those who are detail oriented, in 2002 Yuji Hirayama and I climbed the route to the finishing bolts on the route in 2:48:30, we then continued on to the finishing tree to stop the time at 2:48:55. The Huber's time is to the tree! So they do have the record!"
Thanks for the clarification. They trying it again today?
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NML81
Trad climber
N Lake Tahoe
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Shaving a few seconds means nothing to me. Why don't they spend there time on something productive. If you shave a significant amount of time off that might mean something. What a waste of time.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Why don't they spend there time on something productive."
Like curing cancer or working the bugs out of cold fusion?
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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“Why don't they spend there time on something productive”
Probably getting a pretty productive workout.
Outstanding effort! And also to all that do the Nose for that matter
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"Why don't they spend there time on something productive."
I know, how about a spelling contest!
"Like curing cancer or working the bugs out of cold fusion"...
Well, Alex does have a Masters in Physics, after all...
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Gene
climber
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What I enjoyed about watching the Huber run yesterday was all the good vibes in EC Meadow. People were cheering, carrying on, sharing adult beverages, smokes of various flavors, chatting, in general, just hanging out and watching an awesome display of skill, power and competence. Sharing Bloody Marys and binoculars with new friends from the Czech Republic. BSing with folks just down from the Big Stone. Meeting Tom at the bridge. Thomas’s sh#t eating grin a few hours after he and Alex got back to the bridge and had rehydrated with King Cobras. It was a very entertaining day – time well spent. But then again, it doesn't take much to amuse me - just spending time in the most beautiful place on earth with great people.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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NML81 "Shaving a few seconds means nothing to me. Why don't they spend there time on something productive. If you shave a significant amount of time off that might mean something. What a waste of time."
Actually, if you think about it slightly differently, the time demonstrates just what the limits are. We didn't know how fast the original time was (Hans & Yuji) until someone else (not just someone else, but the Hubers) went and tried to establish a new record. What we find is that breaking the record by a significant amount is probably going to be very hard (though my argument might be refuted tomorrow).
It will be interesting to see just how much the time can come down from now... especially as I am interested in what limits apply to climbing and climbers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ok, back to the limits...
1000m in 9945 seconds for a 70 kg mass is about 70.4 Watts or 0.094 horsepower.
"First Class Athletes" are able to deliver 0.4 hp for many hours... (see e.g. http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~et181/hpv/hpv.html)
if this were the limiting factor then you'd expect that the minimum time someone could ascend 1000m would be roughly 2500 seconds... or 42 minutes...
interestingly close to the "jugging time" of the cavers...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
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2:45.45
YeeHa!
BIG congrats to the Bro's. No doubt about it now--that is a record broken. Hoist!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:43pm PT
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Isn't there a difference Ed between horizontal on a bike and straight up?
Congrats to the Hubers on a more solid record.
In reality, nothing is so cut and dried. The first 15 second record put them at a virtual tie and proved they are the sh#t. The second record, a few minutes over, proves they beat the record, can consistently climb at that speed and level, and confirms that they are the sh#t.
It would be a different level of accomplishment to shave 15-20 minutes off the record. Just like the below 3 hour time of Dean, Hans and their partners kicked the crap out of the old, longstanding 4 hour plus time. (with very little increments inbetween)
We're likely to see some attempted (good natured) smackdowns in the Spring or sooner!
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 12:31am PT
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power output doesn't care if it's up and down or side to side...
the difference is that going up allows you to calculate the total energy required easily, while that is not true of bicycling...
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Yaro
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 12:41am PT
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cold fusion is still around?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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Ed wrote "power output doesn't care if it's up and down or side to side...
the difference is that going up allows you to calculate the total energy required easily, while that is not true of bicycling... "
Maybe I'm confused Ed. I doubt you are trying to say the same power output is required for going 3000 feet vertical versus 3000 feet horizontal, cause none of us will buy that for a moment.
So what do you mean and how do these calculations work. I've approached the 3000 feet approach to route on EL Cap in far less than 3 hours. Do I get a record?
Peace
karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 11:49am PT
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I think you are confusing things, Karl... just sitting around doing nothing at all your body is burning energy, roughly 1000 Calories a day with little effort on your part. 4.2 Million joules in 24 hours... which is 50 Watts of power (we're all just dim light bulbs).
The chart I was refering to on the bicycle page refered to the ability of people to sustain a power output level. People can, with training, sustain 0.4 hp (about 300 Watts) for long periods of time, say 8 hours, with bursts as high as 0.5 hp (370 W).
That's what the plot shows:
Now what is "easy" to do is to calculate the power requred to climb something, because power it is just P = ΔE/Δt where Δt is the elapsed time to get from the bottom to the top, and ΔE is the energy required, which is just mgh, m being the mass (I'd take 70 kg), h the height, take 1000 m and g the gravitational acceleration roughly 10 m/s².
It doesn't matter how you do that, if you road your bike up an inclined road 1000 m in the same time, assuming your total weight (bike + you) was 70 kg. It might feel different 'cause you're using different muscles...
I didn't say (or at least mean to say) that going horizontally 1000 m takes the same energy or requires the same power generation. Bicycling is largely a sport that has to overcome aerodynamic drag, which goes like the velocity cubed, v³. But the limits of the human body to generate power is the same. The world record 1 hour distance for bicycling is a little more than 53 km ( 33 miles) at a sustained power output of 500 W. All of that energy went into moving air around and heating tires and bearings.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
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Yeah Ed, but can't you see that, while it's interesting to see what kind of watts a human body can put out, that it's pretty darn meaningless in terms of climbing?
I mean, the first pitch of Moby Dick Center and Ahab are right next to each other, they are the same height and steepness. They never, ever, require the same power or energy to climb and it's not just a matter of using different muscles, it's the power and manner with which those muscles have to be applied to move up. Just like a bicycle with oblong wheels is going to take more power. The equations are just too simplistic to be real and therefore the comparison with the energy required to climb the Nose is out of whack.
Peace
Karl
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 11, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
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Ed, you're making flawed assumptions. You assuming that all power output is going towards moving up. When you're biking, all power is translated into motion in the desired direction. I seem to remember a LOT of liebacking when I did NIAD. You're exerting tons of power and energy, but perpendicular to the direction of travel. Climbing isn't the same as other sports due to its 3 dimesional nature. A lot of energy is spent that isn't necessarily pushing you linearly in the direction of travel. Also, other sports don't have to worry as much about safety! Power/time is lost setting protection, and dealing with the rope.
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andinismus
climber
Germany
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Oct 11, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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@Ed, you´re perfectly, exactly and ultimately right.
Everything else you other guys are talking about is a matter of efficiency. But fact is that after the Hubers climbed el cap, their increase in energy is pretty much only what they gained in elevation. The amount of energy they put into the whole ascent is a different thing. So what you have here is:
µ(efficency) = Output(gain in elevation)/Input(effort to climb the nose)
As you could put it, the harder the route, the more strenuous the climbing, the less efficient the system (physically speaking).
Cheers
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ktoober
Social climber
Bay Area
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Oct 11, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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The "power it takes to climb something" isn't just change in gravitational potential energy (mgh), however. You also have to consider the power it would take hold yourself on the wall. If we're constantly running at 50 Watts when we're just sitting around, I'd guess we're running a lot higher when we're clinging to tiny face holds, jamming off-widths, or lugging our second up to the belay. How is our energy changed in these cases? It's primarily heat, but there's also the constant exchange between kinetic and potential energy of our muscles and some chemical changes as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 01:33pm PT
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the physics equations are not too simple, there is a physiological limit to the amount of power that can be generated (ultimately the number of calories per millileter of O2 which is metabolized and is a CONSTANT).... and that limit imposes a thermodynamic limit on the rate at which the climb can be done.
My initial thinking-out-loud question was: are these El Cap times near that limit? The answer is no.
Now there is a whole lot of other things going on besides how much "up" you get out of how much energy you generate, but the thing that matters is the work you do, and by work I mean the physics definition of force times distance. You can spend a lot of energy pushing on a 50 ton boulder, but if it doesn't move, you haven't done any work.
Similarly for Ahab, if you aren't moving mass, you ain't working... in a physical sense. This is not too simple for consideration for climbing. These considerations point out where the physical limitations lay. Many of you have stated that there are no limits to climbing, I beg to disagree (well, actually I'm not going to beg, I'm just going to do it).
I will state that there is no way that the Nose can be done in less than 40 minutes. That might not be relevant given the current times, but it represents a limit.
A refined estimate of energy usage while climbing may increase that number, but for the moment it rests on sound physiology and physics... and also can inform climbers.
Nothing is lost by understanding the science of a thing, in fact, much is gained. You don't have to sell your soul to gain that knowledge, you are no less human, your humanity is not reduced, you can still be spiritual, the beauty is still there... for me, it is greatly enhanced...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 11, 2007 - 02:17pm PT
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i think you guys are all saying the same thing. i just have a couple questions
1. how does the coefficient of friction factor into this?
2. at about 45 minutes, how does wind resistance factor into it....
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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"I will state that there is no way that the Nose can be done in less than 40 minutes. That might not be relevant given the current times, but it represents a limit."
I'm an idiot for arguing physics w/ Ed, but here's my devil's advocate position...
In order for the 40 minute argument to hold up, it seems that the athletes in the study would need to represent the true and immutable limit of human physical capability, and their max sustained output on an 8 hour test would have to be closely correlated to the more varied output over a substantially shorter period of time that characterizes an El Cap jug-a-thon.
Now one of the physics gurus can expalin to me how I've misunderstood the problem. ;-)
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:22pm PT
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Ed - never say never......toprope by a steroid enhanced athlete,hopped up on meth,LSD and O2 could achieve a time faster than 42 minutes IMHO. (certainly the juggers could improve thier 45 min. time)
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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it's interesting to run those power output numbers for dan osman's speed ascent of bear's reach...
400 vertical ft in 4 minutes and 25 seconds for a 155 pounds climber corresponds to about 317 watts (!) of power being converted into gravitational potential energy.
317 watts = 0.425 horsepower!
according to ed's plot, he could have kept this up for at least 3 hours and scaled the nose in about 33 minutes. take that, cavers! this is of course assuming that...
1) dan osman was a 'first class athlete'
(pretty fair)
2) he didn't waste any energy at all gripping the rock, climbing sideways, holding his body in the right position, looking cool for the camera, etc.
(not so believable)
3) the nose is 5.7.
(uhhhh.... right)
4) i don't really have a 4th assumption... i just wanted to point out that i'm completely wasting time at work right now.
(very believable)
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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Ed, Melissa makes a really good point. Based on your graph, for 40 minutes or so of effort, a top athlete can put out around .47hp, which is maybe 18% more than you ran your original numbers on. So I would suspect that your ultimate time would be about 18% faster, say 33 minutes? But the limiting factor is probably only partly the athlete. The assumptions that have been made for these calculations is that all of the athlete's efforts, every bit of what it takes to put out that .4 or .47 or whatever hp is translated to upward motion, or work in a physics sense. The reality is that climbing, and especially difficult climbing, is a remarkably inefficient system. The amount of energy in terms of calories burned it takes a climber to climb a 100-foot 5.14 is much larger than the amount of energy required for the same climber to climb a 100 foot ladder in the same period of time, as clearly evidenced by the level of exhaustion of the climber after the task. In some ways the difficulty of a climb can be thought of as the inefficiency of the system. The cavers jugging a line had a pretty efficient system. I'd bet that if you threw the Hubers on jugs on a single static line they'd be able to come pretty close to that 43 minutes.
EDIT: Meant to add that the point is that acutally using the features offered by the Nose (most of the time) is so significantly less efficient than jugging a static line that the real limit for speed climbing the Nose is likely a lot closer to the Huber's 2:45 than the caver's 43 minutes.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 03:54pm PT
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I once ran from downtown Mill Valley (64 feet) to the fire-lookout on Mt Tamalpias (2571'),
with a time of 39:56. (Annual Mt Tam Hillclimb race, via any route you care to take).
Can the wattage be accurately calculated?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
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Someone should teach Lance Armstrong how to jug, so we can settle this important scientific matter!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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What do the physics calculations say about the ultimate limit for climbing the Royal Arches?
The real limits of climbing the Nose will be approach when two guys get good enough to free solo everything but the Great Roof and Changing Corners. Basically, take the new time for Soloing the Rostrum and Astroman, add another Astroman and some putzing time for a couple aid pitches frenched and you'll have a reasonably ultimate number.
There are no real limits as even the limits of the body may be re-engineered in the future through DNA technology and approaches we can't even dream of yet.
Peace
karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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My point (and my strong statement of a limit) is that there are physiological limits, physics helps you quantify them and generalize them.
For cycling, the hour record has been very slowly increasing, with exceptions, since about 1892... in the mid 90's there is a jump, perhaps representing what various enhancements can do for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cyclingdevelopmenthourrecord.svg#file
2803 kJ/mol is 670 Calories/mol is 2.83 cal/ml
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Gene
climber
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Oct 11, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
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2803 kJ/mol is 670 Calories/mol is 2.83 cal/ml
That clarifies it. What was I thinking?
Just messing.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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"Someone should teach Lance Armstrong how to jug, so we can settle this important scientific matter!"
No, we'd get an idea of what performance enhancing drugs can do for you, which would possibly be an addition to the equation being discussed.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 11, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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Since the most-tested man in the history of cycling never tested positive, how long are we gonna beat this dead horse?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
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> For cycling, the hour record has been very slowly increasing, with exceptions, since about 1892... in the mid 90's there is a jump, perhaps representing what various enhancements can do for you...
There's no jump in the UCI hour record, which restricts riders to the same type of (traditional) bike Eddy Merckx and previous folks had. Other records jumped a bit, most likely due to more aerodynamic technology (since air resistance is the main opponent). So it supports your point that there are limits inherent in the human ability to do work at that high wattage. The pro cyclists usually have the highest watts/kg of all athletes (except for possibly a few of the nordic ski racers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2max
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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What about the ATP in yer respiration model?
click on the formula.
The point is that all the energy you get is derived from that reaction... you need the fuel and you need the Os, but that's what you are going to get. No more, no less.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 11, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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Hardmann, Armstrong did indeed test positive for some kind of anti-inflammatory steroid, but his doctor was allowed to write a prescription for it after the fact. He was suppposed to need it for a skin condition.
Many don't realize this, but cyclists are allowed many banned drugs if they have some medical need recognized by the race organizers. A perfect example of this was Tyler Hamiltons broken collarbone in 2003. He was allowed the use of narcotic painkillers by the officials. He was a big attraction and they wanted to give him every opportunity to stay in the race.
These decisions are arbitrary, and not consistently applied. It all depends on who the rider is and how they feel about him.
Michael
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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In the NYTimes sports page today there is a story about "the Incline" in Manitou Springs, CO, a 1 mile long, 2011' elevation gain "trail" that athletes use to train on...
...it got me interested in the limits thing again. So I Googled the web and found the records of the "Incline Club". Taking this for 114 guys, I'd estimate the maximum power output to be roughly 0.46 hp for an 18'31" trip up the trail. Very much in the range I estimated above.
The minimum time reported is 16'42" which is about 0.51 hp by my estimates (used the average height of 68" and the aerobic athlete measure of 2 lbs/in-height for weight).
There are enough times to see that for this sample of people, the expectation of a logistics sampling isn't all that bad...
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