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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Does anybody know what happened at the Leap on Saturday? I saw a Chopper, buggies and Search and rescue on the Hog's Back. Apparrently a climber fell? Is She OKAY?
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creetur
climber
CA
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I was up there today and heard that a really green leader fell somewhere on a Hogsback climb and was heli'd out. Broke both ankles, apparently. Poor girl...I haven't heard how she's doing or anything more about what happened. Pretty ledgy over there; that would be an unpleasant fall.
Anyone know if she's okay?
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Glaidig
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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I pulled some gear of Deception yesterday (Sunday 30Sept). This must have been the route the accident took place on. I would be happy to return the gear to the rightful owner. Contact information needed.
Guy
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sending fast healing thoughts to her.
Guy, that is a cool post! Kudos to you!
AF
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J. R.
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Hey all,
We were climbing to the right of her on Manic Depressive Direct when she fell. I was on lead but my belayer saw the entire accident. She popped 3 pieces of pro and took quite a tumble all the way down to her belayer. I am not sure which route since it was my first trip to the Leap. I had not quite set my anchors so we were unable to help. I'd like to thank the guys to her left who were able to reach she and her partner in record time.
We saw a litter carried in by first responders and she was helicoptered out. Last I heard was that both ankles were broken.
~ J. R.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2007 - 02:46pm PT
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The more I hear about this, the more I think it is time to stop using the Yosemite decimal system in our gyms and take responsibility for what we are teaching people there. We are giving people the wrong sense of security and mastery, misleading folks into thinking that plastic climbing can convert directly into rock climbing. When I hear of multiple protection failures on an easy route leading to this kind of tragedy, I wonder who is mentoring new leaders and should they be held responsible? How on Earth could something like this happen? The answer may lie in the fact that gym climbers are moving into the outdoors way too fast. I climb 5.12 onsight in the gym but got spanked on 11b yesterday at Phantom Spires. I sometimes even freak out a bit on 5.9 leads. There is loose rock, no bolts, bad pro, ledgouts, and no pretty blue carpet to land on. Just because some stupid guidebook says the route is easy doesn't make it true. Many of the route descriptions are third hand accounts from reckless, unsafe climbers who sandbag to promote their own egos.
On a similar note, I saw three girls teasing a young man about 17 years old at the Buttermilks last weekend. He just topped out High Plains Drifter (V7) and was sending some V2 next to it. But his head was still spinning from the last route. He was about thirty feet off the deck as the girls taunted and goaded him. Just jump for the Waco! she said. The poor kid was protesting and wisely downclimbing but the girls kept yelling at him not to downclimb and go for it, even teasing him about being scared on such and easy highball. My partner dragged a crashpad over to him. I yelled to the kid that it was his route and not to listen to the girls. I told him that backing off was the truly courageous thing to do and that he deserved mad props for going against the group. After all, those girls probably would ditch the guy in a heartbeat if he fell and then lived in a wheelchair. I wanted to tell him that those girls were not his friends and I am saying that now. James, if you are out there reading this, right on man. You live to climb on. Read Reinhold Messner's account of how he sent all the 8,000 meter peaks without supplemental oxygen. He attributes his accomplishment to surviving long enough to do it. Many times he downclimbed while reckless, cavalier climbers finished routes where they were over their heads. Many of them died eventually on other climbs. Messner says he never ever leaves his comfort zone by choice......
I helped evacuate a girl who fell in the gorge a couple of years back. She fell 30 feet trying to clip the first bolt of a 5.8 sport route. I came upon the scene about 30 seconds after she fell. She had a broken wrist, fractured pelvis, broken jaw, lacerations and intercranial bleeding. When my partner and I brought her gear to the hospital in Bishop, she was already in lifeflight to UCLA trauma center where her survival was uncertain. Nobody wants to hear this but everyone who leads needs to. Fact: lead climbing is dangerous! Ledgeouts happen on easy well protected routes. I had to watch search and rescue evac my friend Paul from the leap the year before. He fell on the crux of "The Groove," 5.8. His protection held but the ledge shattered his ankle. Paul still climbs but with a new sense of the true predicament of leadclimbing. You go Klygesdale!
Bottom line; no one should ever push someone outside their comfort zone, and some peoples' comfort zones are way too wide.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 15, 2007 - 02:53pm PT
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What you're saying is worth reading. But it'd be a lot easier to do if you added a few paragraphs breaks, man. Please.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Oct 15, 2007 - 02:55pm PT
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chainsaw
well said
so true
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 15, 2007 - 02:57pm PT
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its all the gym's fault? C'mon man. Every new leader makes mistakes. Sh#t happens. The hogsback sees accidents cause new leaders go there. And a little encouragement might have helped that kid send in the milks! Doh!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 15, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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Well said, chainsaw. I agree that people who become accustomed to the relative safety of climbing indoors tend to be too reckless outdoors, not considering 'decking', 'ledging', and not learning protection systems thouroughly before setting out on climbs.
One of my buddies 'ledged' in Jtree acouple years ago. Kinda of ironic but the route was called, "Sitting here in Limbo". Completely wasted his ankle, he still doesn't climb much anymore.
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andanother
climber
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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I'm with ya chainsaw!
I just love passing judgement and putting people down when it comes to situations I know nothing about.
Only gym climbers fall, right? Stupid f*#kin gym climbers!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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As a kind of sidebar to this...
After a serious accident at Squamish about ten years ago (a guy zippered several cams and smacked his head on the ledge on top of the Split Pillar) I wondered out loud to a friend how anyone could pull cams out of a crack that accepts good placements.
My friend was a guide who'd taught countless beginners, many of whom were coming from gyms, and his answer was interesting. He said that beginners tended to be afraid of stopper placements, and so worked extra hard to make sure they were bomber, but that they viewed cams as foolproof modern machines that worked automatically. So, their cam placements were often marginal.
No idea what the woman zippered at the Leap, but I think Jim's idea about cams being viewed as magical by a lot of beginning trad leaders is right on.
D
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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I've posted many times advising new leaders to learn to place by aid climbing with a top rope belay.
I climbed with a few good leaders who were friends, but then I took a weekend course before I got on the sharp end with placing gear. Aid climbing on TR was one of the best things I did. You actually learn what will hold. I don't think many people really know.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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I agree that new lead climbers should aid on top rope. I see a lot of crappy placements out there, clearly placed by folks who have not fallen or even hung on gear. Pulling out a cam while on top rope would be of so much benefit.
I hope the person involved in this accident recovers quickly and enjoys many more years of safe climbing.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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"I've posted many times advising new leaders to learn to place by aid climbing with a top rope belay."
OK, I'll bite. Why the top-rope belay? Seems silly to me.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Is this known to be a route you can sew up with bomber gear, each piece sure to stop a hard fall before you ledge out? Not all routes are like that, and if this isn't one of them some of you are rushing into judgment.
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Oct 15, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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David, it's so that the price of a blown placement is minimized.
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Oct 15, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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assuming it was deception: in my recollection (jeez, it was MONTHS ago), there are lots of great placements, but plenty of sucker placements too---like flakes behind flakes behind flakes where it's not clear what would move under the force of a cam in a fall.
also, it's not exactly trivial route-finding. she could have gotten run out into harder than expected climbing pretty easily.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 15, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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" David, it's so that the price of a blown placement is minimized."
Hi Steve,
It still seems silly to me. The only time I've seen people doing it it was easy aid. And I couldn't imagine why they had the top rope.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Oct 15, 2007 - 04:29pm PT
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"We're all familiar with gravity"
some more than others
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 15, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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How about,if a route in a gym was rated say, G.9?
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 15, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
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Anyone know if the woman who fell is OK?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 15, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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J.R. You might be able to ID the route from the route beta photos here on supertopo:
http://www.supertopo.com/routebeta/southlake.html?s=ratings&o=ASC&v=0&ftr=Hogsback&cur=0#list
Manic Depressive Direct (your route, on far right side)
Deception
If it was Deception, I have a friend who was an inexperienced leader and took a long scary fall on the second pitch a few years ago. I have seen inexperienced leaders do this pitch, and it is a bit too tricky for a starter lead, in spite of its friendly 5.6 rating. You are in a crack which fades into a seam, and the 5.6 version traverses right on a thin face at that point. If you stay in the crack, you don't get pro and it becomes 5.8 R.
Quoting from the Supertopo Route Beta for Deception:
"High on the second pitch, a traverse right avoids the direct 5.7 variation. While it appears tame, the direct 5.7 variation does require some awkward moves on small gear."
Deception p2 at the point where you are supposed to traverse right.
His protection was crummy so I extended a runner down from my anchor so he could clip it.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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Historically people who wished to learn lead climbing had
to find one or more teachers who would spend
considerable time one on one with them. Gymnasiums
cannot make a profit teaching this kind of skill and were
they to attempt it they would face a substantial increase in
cost of liability. Initially the gyms tried to extract a small
range of activities, i.e. top roping, with a very high priority
assigned to the presence of personnel to limit prohibited
activities. That they ever allowed “leading practice”
suggests the original range of allowed activities did not
allow them to hold the market strongly enough to continue
making a profit. The customers apparently would not put up
with it. Gym climbers with whom I have spoken implied
their interest in outdoor climbing was based up the gym
experience being too limited.
In the process of building their inadequate business model
the gyms may ultimately risk doing damage not only to their
customers but also to the “rest of us.” Do we think access
will not become a problem when greater and greater
numbers of people, whatever their training, are decking
out? Even that is not where this all stops. Now that
commercial climbing has become a reality and everyone
has become more litigious, does a well meaning volunteer
teacher face a new and serious risk?
Instruction is becoming something only the wealthy can
afford. While inability to gain access would help to reduce
the need for instruction, that is a poor solution. Even were
people to begin winning draconian suits against gyms we
would not have an answer. Draconian suits against
individual volunteer teachers would not be far behind.
There are those who would argue that making all climbs
“clip-ups” is the only answer. Hardly. Once a landowner
knows anchors of unknown quality have been installed,
those anchors become an attractive nuisance. In their
presence the owner’s liability escalates dramatically.
Saying the area is closed is not enough. Access must be
physically prevented. Failure of one anchor followed by a
suit will take us through this last turn.
Hard to avoid concluding that in the short term the only way
now for people to learn how to lead, is to teach themselves.
In the long term there appears to be no answer.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2007 - 10:32pm PT
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Thanks for the feed back. I hope noone was offended by my post. I guess I just wanted to get it off my chest. I was really scared when I saw what was happening that day. I hope she is alright.
Rob
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2007 - 10:44pm PT
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Yeah that's what happens when you see the real gory truth chainsaw in living color right in front of you. It changes our outlook rapidly.
I don't blame you one bit for thinking the way you did, it's natural. I see so much of this stuff all the time, but then again I've become hardened and used to it.
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J$
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 02:44am PT
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I hope the woman who fell is OK and is back on her feet soon.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Deception Direct. I think the first traverse to the left is anything but obvious unless you've read the SuperTopo or you're naturally predisposed to wussing out. One of my scariest early trad leading experiences came about while accidentally staying in the first corner for the second pitch. Seemed like the logical way to go and the Falcon guide's sketch of the cliff only showed one corner...
The SuperTopo describes it pretty accurately: "the corner morphs into a tiny seam and the adventure beings. Face moves, protected by RPs, gradually get more difficult and culminate in tenuous 5.9 face moves above questionable gear." I probably stood on the ledge at the top of the seam for about 20 minutes trying to figure out what to do next. I didn't think I could downclimb the seam, I didn't trust my last piece: a shaky, newbie placement, which was probably about 9 or 10 feet below me. I was standing on this nice little ledge with what looked like a blank, bulging face in front of me and some good features off to the left that I couldn't reach from the ledge. My first-of-the-season, warm-up, take-my-friend-up-something-easy climb had suddenly gotten kind of serious.
My buddy, who had never climbed outside before and probably only belayed a few times in the gym, started shouting up at me, asking what was wrong. Not wanting to wig him out (or myself anymore than I already was), I'd shout back "working on it!" and "the routefinding is a little tricky here" and finally "I don't think this is 5.6!", while having a mini personal crisis ("do I really want to climb enough to be in a spot like this", "i don't belong here", "that Falcon guide f**kin sucks"). After quite a while, I calmed down and took my first good look at the rock right in front of my face. Little edges and features started to appear and...hey, I think I can climb this.
Due in large part to own crappy gear placement below, those next few moves off the little ledge felt like the boldest moves I'd ever made, and I was completely humbled when I later got back to the car and discovered the old Dneba guidebook - I'd already decided the Falcon guide WAS sh#t so I didn't care what it said - rated that scary bulge a 5.8. Not wanting to admit even to myself that the moves felt like 5.10 at the time, I penciled in a "5.8+ to 5.9". When the SuperTopo guide for the Leap came out, one of the first routes I looked up was Deception and I felt a little bit vindicated when I saw the 5.9 rating.
I've always thought that Deception was so named because of the route finding. Anyone know? Sorry to hear that someone was injured on this climb. All the discussion of the route brought back some memories of what, in retrospect, was a important learning experience in my personal climbing life and made me think of how easily it could have gone the other way.
Again, best wishes for a speedy recovery!
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Oct 16, 2007 - 08:45am PT
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I have no way of knowing if this was a factor in this accident, but since we have veered slightly from that path anyway...
I think a major problem with folks transitioning from the gym to outdoor is the lack of routefinding ability. They are accustomed to following a taped sequence. With little outdoor experience, especially on lead, they often do not possess the ability to look at a piece of rock and decide whether it is 5.6 or 5.9 and realize the climb does not likely continue this way.
Now I know a lot of times things look harder than they really are (Gunks roofs, for example), but that's actually the point. An expereinced leader knows Gunks roofs are often a lot easier than they appear and knows exactly what to look for to make a reasonable decision if the presumed line truly matches the grade.
A new leader, without a mentor to steer them to routes with obvious routefinding and lacking the experience to decide potential difficulty based on reading the rock, can easily get off route and in serious trouble.
Couple this with the inability/reluctance for many new leaders to downclimb and there could be serious problems.
TS
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jaystone
Trad climber
EDH, Ca
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Oct 16, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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I saw friend of mine this weekend who knows the involved party. They were on deception, not deception direct. He didn't give much detail other than she is a new leader and both her ankles were badly broken.
I've climbed that route twice and personally don't think the placements or route finding are tricky. My take is her placements were unfortunately tested and they didn't pass the test.
I send my best wishes for a speedy and clean recovery.
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
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Werner
Do you really get used to it?
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
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i've seen more than three and not as many as Werner. It hasn't become "standard" yet. But then, I didn't have any Vic's with me.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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fattrad: "You still owe me two rescues."
Huh?
Wade, I've seen so much, there's not much more to be seen.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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Thanks very much for doing that fattrad.
You the man ......
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maestro8
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Hard to avoid concluding that in the short term the only way
now for people to learn how to lead, is to teach themselves.
What ever happened to mentoring?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
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Read the stuff above that line and you will see how that conclusion comes about. Hope it isn't right but............
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mack
Trad climber
vermont
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Oct 16, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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I started climbing with some older, more experienced climbers. When I decided I wanted to start leading I took a 1:1 leader course. Sure I guess it was kind of expensive $200, but it (in my opinion) was well worth it. She had me place a ton of gear on the ground and she evaluated each piece, and told me if it was good (bomber) or bad (crap) and why it was good or bad. And then I did a short lead on toprope with her jugging right next to me and discussing each piece. And I started with easy stuff and worked very slowly up through the grades. Even now, years later I ask my 2nd (if they are experienced leaders) to evaluate my gear and we talk about it..it can be humbling. I 'm going to do some clean aid climbing this Fall to try to further my ability to place good gear every time.
I sure hope the woman who broke her ankles heals up well and knows what happened and why.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 16, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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The newest model for introducing newcomers to trad climbing is commercial, but it isn't the gym. REI and others have begun to sponsor outdoor climbing clinics. The gym market is at or near saturation, but each gym climber who has never been outdoors is a potential REI customer. The outdoor industry hopes that a big chunk of those gym folks take the next step, and since many of them can't or won't hire guides, and there aren't enough motivated volunteer mentors to go around, all the new REI clinics make sense. I won't be surprised if other retailers/manufacturers follow suit. This may indeed open new liability issues, but REI management is beginning to worry that the alternatives are worse. Check out this story-- not much on the new clinics, but it explains the reasons for the new strategy.
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/10/02/news/mtregional/news06.txt
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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How can you mandate how someone learns to lead climb? There is no set formula that will insure a person has the mechanical and mental make up to go on lead. This is a dangerous sport and people have to take responsibility for themselves. Granted I hate to see anyone get hurt or worse, but there is not a whole lot I can do to stop it. Helping beginners when you see that they need help, or giving advice at a gym when you hear someone talking about venturing to the outside is about it. I'd sure hate to see regulations enter the climbing world....
Chainsaw, I appriciate your compasion and my assumption is that you already do help begginers, which is great. Thanks for opening up a good topic.
Prod.
PS, funny how a guy named "Chainsaw" is the compassionate one.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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I had not heard of the climbing clinics. Maybe there is some hope. Anyone's guess as to how the liability issues will work out, but REI surely has had some excellent counsel.
Peter:
We are talking availability not regulation. It is a potentially dangerous activity so everyone has to factor in potential liability.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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Hi Jstan,
Guy here, I am not sure what you mean by we are discussing availibilty here? Do you mean we are discussing availibility of teacher/ mentors? My fear of talks like this is that for the "good of the public" climbing becomes a regulated activity with certifications etc...
Stzzo,
I agree completely and I hope my posts do not seem heartless.
Prod.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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I'd like to know exactly what abou this accident has anything to do with GYM climbing?
Who talked to the victim and heard she learned to lead trad climbs in a gym???
Who has been climbing in a gym that claims to be able to instruct profficient trad climbing, indoors??? I'd like to know which one please.
I'd don't know why you old crusty tradsters have to blame gyms for any bad thing that ever happens in climbing...
Matt, Owner
http://www.roguerockgym.com
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:14pm PT
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Gosh I must be obscure today. I am talking "legal liability" not fault. Legal liability always falls on a deep pocket whether they are at "fault" or not. And these kinds of considerations are affecting the instruction that people are able to get.
In the old days a lot of people taught themselves which was pretty risky. It was speculated that the accident at the leap may have been influenced by inadequate availability of good instruction. I was trying to address why this seems to be an increasing problem. Maybe REI and like minded groups will be able to help.
Is this any clearer?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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Matt:
From what I have seen and from what I have heard people leaving the gym environment have to jump a huge gap when they go outdoors. And there are a lot of people attempting this transition without ready sources of instruction. I think this is a problem. Perhaps you have an answer? I hope so.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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sorry, but you don't know what the f*#k you are talking about...(regarding your lengthy rant on the secon page)
gyms are not responsible for what people do outdoors.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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Hey Matt,
I pull on plastic and love it. Also love getting run out on easy trad routes, and bouldering, and sport climbing.
I do not think anyone is actually blaming your industry. I think what Chainsaw and others are speculating is that with gym climbing new climbers are getting physically stronger faster without the following natural progression of placing gear and feeling real rock as they grow as climbers. With that being said, the problem comes around when these people move to the outside. They may be physically ready to pull down on some hard #'s but lack the experience of route finding and proper gear placement, potentially putting them selves in danger.
Prod.
MATT, I do not think anyone is being adversarial. You're out of line with your tone there. You being a gym owner and I am guessing a outdoor climber as well have an excellent opportunity to provide some input here as well as potentially help create a solution for at least your clientele.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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“I do not think anyone is actually blaming your industry.”
Chainsaws post:
The more I hear about this, the more I think it is time to stop using the Yosemite decimal system in our gyms and take responsibility for what we are teaching people there. We are giving people the wrong sense of security and mastery, misleading folks into thinking that plastic climbing can convert directly into rock climbing.
jstan’s:
In the process of building their inadequate business model
the gyms may ultimately risk doing damage not only to their
customers but also to the “rest of us.”
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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Prod:
OK I see your connection. I would guess forty years ago there was perhaps one instructor/mentor available to teach every five beginners. (By its nature the teaching process is one on one.) I think that ratio has become much much larger. I can't say how big frankly. It has to be really tough out there now.
Whether we talk about it or not, considerations of liability will not tend to increase the number of volunteer instructors out there. The things you mention play into that mix. So yes. It is a real problem. Teaching youngsters is a great experience. The more you and I do this the more we do to lessen the problem.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:38pm PT
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Matt:
Let me tell you something that really concerns me when I teach climbing to youngsters. I am giving them tools with which to go out and try to do things. If I give them tools to go out and do this but do not also give them the tools that allow them to understand and conservatively to manage their risk, I have not done my job. And when it comes to climbing the consequences of doing half a job are pretty severe.
How do you manage the issue of protecting your customers when they go out and try to use what you have taught them?
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Hey Matt,
I think that Chainsaws post is just restating the context of this issue, that there may be a perceived natural progression from indoor climbing to outdoor climbing. This is certainly not accusing gyms of anything. I'll let Jstan cover his own point with where he is going with the whole "bad business plan" issue, but the bigger topic that he is touching on is liability. Potentially this means you from a legal point of view.
So in your experience as a gym owner as well as a trad climber, what can we do to better prepare new climbers for this transition? I am sure you have some valuable input on the topic.
Prod.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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What I don't understand is how gym climbing at all relates to the context of the issue? Again refer to my first question above ^^^
If gyms want to instruct trad climbing outdoors and actually have their students practice trad leading under their supervision, then they can pay extra to be insured for it. What people do out on their own does not concern us as far as liability.
From my experience, 'most' gyms don't claim to be able to teach someone to trad climb, especially inside their facility.
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own. This is the standard outlined by the Climbing Wall Association. If people want to ignore that premis and take what they learn indoors outdoors, then it's on their shoulders not ours.
More importantly, we have big signs that state, 'CLIMBING IS DANGEROUS, CLIMB AT YOUR OWN RISK"
I'm just sick of people makeing blanket statements blaming the gym indusrty for bepople being stupid and having accidents at the crags, is all.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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My bad business plan refers to the content of my post above. It is an incomplete(bad) business plan when you build a widget, and sell it to customers without thinking through the whole life cycle of the product. You teach people how to climb up in the air, you necessarily must teach them how to manage the risk of doing so. Seems no leap at all to me. From a simple business standpoint you have to do this if you want customers to come back. There are other reasons more important than the business reasons why one should do this, but let us here just look at the business aspect. We can argue about the other reasons later.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 16, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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Fatty, WTF is a 'titon'? Is that like pro for the lady-folk?
I wouldn't mind gettin' some tit-on!
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:07pm PT
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Who has been climbing in a gym that claims to be able to instruct profficient trad climbing, indoors??? I'd like to know which one please.
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own. This is the standard outlined by the Climbing Wall Association. If people want to ignore that premis and take what they learn indoors outdoors, then it's on their shoulders not ours.
Lead Climbing
Learn to lead climb in the Rogue Rock Gym. Private two hour class covering lead rope skills,
clipping, lead belaying and falling.
Members - $35 Non-Members -$45
Advanced Skills
Want to go from the gym to the outdoor crag? This is everything and anything you want to
know about rock climbing. This may include, outdoor techniques, anchors, self rescue, aid
climbing, and more. This class is customized to your needs in order to help you reach goals
beyond the gym.
Members - $50 Non-Members -$70
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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IMO
Gyms are the biggest factor in supporting climbing accidents for new climbers. One thing for sure, gyms do not put any effort in educating climbers on safety.
Here just tie a fig 8, belays is on and keep your hand like this
And do not forget to buy this $299 on-sale leader kit for your first trad climbing
by the way, sign here so you do not SUE us later
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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jstan, if you knew anything about gym business plans, then you'd know the key to success is soccer moms and birthday parties, and keeping your members coming back has more to do with clean bathrrooms and good routes. Trad climbing classes make up maybe .5 percent of revenue. And once you teach someone to trad climb on their own you ussualy lose them as a regular visitor.
Gene,
Our lead climbing classes are inndoor sport climbing bolt clipping, and our "Advanced classes" are private, and yes I can teach you to do any aspect of climbing as safely as it can possibly be done, and if you don't believe that, try me. And I would not tell any student they could become a profficient trad climber indoors.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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Matt,
I have no doubt that you are a good, competent instructor who stresses safety.
But how can you say this:
We specificaly state in our classes that the training is specific to indoor use only and does not cover or qualify anyone to go climbing outdoors on their own.
And then advertise the following:
Advanced Skills
Want to go from the gym to the outdoor crag? {Snip} This class is customized to your needs in order to help you reach goals beyond the gym.
Matt. I'm not trying to give you a bad time. I just don't get it.
Regards,
Gene
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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Stzzo has a real point about thinking. When you are on three holds and you have only one hold to grab for the next move, your thinking is pretty limited. Outdoors you are generally looking at several hundred holds and you need to know asap which set will work the best for you. And protection is all about thinking. The environments and the demands upon the climber are entirely different.
Stzzo got close to the crux on this IMO.
EDIT
And your go-cart comment is another winner IMO. I started driving around nine or ten and I had 20 acres to cut cookies in. You learn what a vehicle can do and what it cannot do. If Ford explorer drivers had a chance to run those vehicles on a track they would be in better shape. So yes, I think there is a big cross over between driving and track. I was pretty chicken in go-carts though. Going full power into the button hook to get the four wheel drift was, for me, uncomfortable.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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Gyms are the biggest factor in supporting climbing accidents for new climbers. One thing for sure, gyms do not put any effort in educating climbers on safety.
Sure, new climbers get into climbing after being at the gym. Probably accounts for a significant number of new climbers. Stands to reason that if a number of new climbers get hurt, and a high percentage of them got into climbing from going to a climbing gym...then, voila.
But, I've never been to a gym that didn't put at least some effort into safety. They have to. Sure, some don't police as well as they could. But to say that they don't put any effort into safety is BS. And, I'll venture I've been to a significant number of the climbing gyms in the U.S.
If I were in the "bizz", I'd be psyched that there is a way to get folks into climbing, via the gym, boyscouts, whatever.
I dunno. Just don't think its fair to place the blame on outdoor climbing accidents on indoor climbing gyms.
-Brian in SLC
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chumbawumba
climber
SF, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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For those who were discussing the legal liability of teaching a person to climb, below is an interesting head note from a California case dealing specifically with this topic.
“Negligence § 37--Exercise of Care--Plaintiff--Primary Assumption of Risk of Risk--Rock Climbing. --A wrongful death action brought by the widow of a participant who was killed during a rock climbing class sponsored by defendant was barred by the doctrine of primary assumption of risk, and the trial court therefore erred in denying defendant's motion for summary judgment. The complaint alleged that decedent's fall was the result the negligence of defendant's instructors in placing four rope anchors into a single crack system resulting in the release of the line holding decedent. Defendant met its burden of establishing that decedent was not taken beyond his level of experience and capability in the activity culminating in his fall, and that the risk to him was not beyond that inherent in any top rope climbing activity. Falling, whether because of one's own slip, another climber's stumble, or an anchor system giving way, is the very risk inherent in the sport of mountain climbing and cannot be completely eliminated without destroying the sport itself. Plaintiff produced no evidence that failure of a nominal lead instructor to double-check the work of two other instructors could have prevented the fall, or that such a procedure was routine for the sport. The special dangers posed by the sport of rock climbing did not require application of the duty of ordinary care; inherent in the sport of rock climbing is the fact that a fall can occur at anytime, regardless of the negligence of one's coparticipants.”
Regents of Univ. of Cal. v. Superior Court, 41 Cal. App. 4th 1040 (Cal. Ct. App. 1996)
The California Supreme Court has since clarified the law with respect to sports instruction and its possible another result might be reached as of today, nevertheless, even with the clarification it appears as though it would be very difficult to place liability upon a person providing climbing instruction unless they did something intentionally wrong or did something exceptionally stupid.
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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gyms totally suck until the weather totally sucks and then gyms are totally cool and fun.
how's that girl with the broken ankles doing?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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chumbawumba:
Many thanks for the case law. I figured it had to be abuilding out there.
No need to point out the defendant winds up poor no matter the verdict.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Brian in SLC
Pick up 20 top gyms in USA and call them the up and ask, when they will offer a seminar on climbing safety or any related topic, also ask them when the last time they offered such classes or seminar . Then ask them when the next time they will teach rock is climbing 101 or basic lead climbing.
I bet they offer those classes every week.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Majid_S
Most every gym I've been to offers instruction on how to TR and/or lead climb (exception being gyms that are bouldering only). I've not been to one where you didn't have to "pass the test".
Do you climb in a gym? You must know this.
The things I see getting taught all involve safety.
Proper knot tying. Proper tie in. Proper belay. Rope/climbing commands. Communication. Check your partner. Don't Z clip. Don't back clip. Etc etc etc.
Next you'll be blaming REI for not putting climbing ropes in a plain paper wrapper, behind the counter...
Ha!
-Brian in SLC
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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Majid,
Most don't, which I guess is your point. And classes tend to be gym-centric instead of rock-centric (which is fine; they are gyms). At the old PG gym I once witnessed a "crack climbing" class taught by gym employee who hated crack climbing. Uh, OK.
I learned to rock climb in the outdoor rock 1 & rock 2 classes taught through maysho's old City Rock gym in Emeryville. In the second day we learned to lead on gear. That gym is long gone, but it looks like the classes are still offered. So there seems to be climbing instruction available in the bay area.
http://daltman.com/outdoor.html
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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Quick sample of a few of the gyms I've been to:
Haven't found one that doesn't offer instruction...
-Brian in SLC
http://www.upperlimits.com/bloomington/index.html
Instruction for beginning to advanced climbers, indoors and out.
http://www.earthtreksclimbing.com/
Learning the Basics: There are some important safety skills that you need to learn if you want to start climbing independently at an Earth Treks Climbing Center or outdoors.
You can learn the basics with the Introductory Package or outdoors in the Introduction to Rock Climbing course. Both of these options deliver a great climbing experience and lay a solid foundation of safety skills, including harness use, knot tying, and belaying.
http://touchstoneclimbing.com/bi.html
I n t r o t o C l i m b i n g C l a s s (Walk-in registration daily)
Enjoy an immediate climbing experience with our instructors as they guide you through the proper use of belay equipment, knot tying and basic top rope climbing. Personal responsibility and safe climbing practices are emphasized. Recommended for first-time climbers, minimum age 14. Please arrive 15 minutes before the schedule class start time. For a complete listing of class times and prices, check each gyms' respective pricing page.
Skill Clinics
Intermediate Technique
Lead Climbing
Outdoor Climbing
Self-Rescue Techniques
Aid Climbing
http://www.rockreation.com/
Fight Gravity 1
Learn the basic safety skills necessary to pass our safety check and climb at Rockreation.
In this 2 hour course, you will learn introductory top rope skills including how to put on your harness, tie-in with a double figure eight climbing
http://www.phoenixrockgym.com/
Even if you've never touched a rope in your life we will teach you the skills needed to climb safely.
http://www.momentumclimbing.com/
We offer climbing instruction and outdoor guiding and private coaching for all ages and abilities. We have a classroom for school, church and scout groups.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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I used to teach climbing.
I did not get paid.
I did not say much.
Except: "Follow me"
And off we went to climb.
Why all this heavy Bullshit nowadays.
Blah blah blah, do this, do that, do like this.
They came to climb with me, hoping to still be alive at the end of the day .....
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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What I am hearing is instruction exists. As long as an avenue exists and people are made very aware they are two entirely distinct disciplines, then they are not left hanging. If a gym does not run outdoor trips to teach lead climbing they should be able to provide references to other places and instructors that will give the appropriate training. Cost will be higher for individualized instruction, but that is the nature of the beast.
I think doing other than pure top roping in a gym tends to blur the distinction between gym and outdoor, and that may be where the trouble really crops up.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
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Amen, jstan!
Indoor skills are different from what's needed outside. You can get hurt or killed finding out that difference.
GM
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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I wonder how many SuperTopians learned in some formal setting (gym, course, guide, scouts...), and how many simply figured it out themselves? I suspect most fall into the latter category - there weren't that many resources in the 1970s. We had Basic and Advanced Rockcraft, Freedom of the Hills, and the magazines. Hopefully some friends who were willing to tolerate an apprentice/belayer, and even pass on some tips. But guides, courses and such weren't common.
Certainly climbers from that period died - risk is inescapable in climbing. But generally not from the errors of inexperience. And there are still many climbers who'll voluntarily help others get off on the right foot. (So to speak.)
The important thing is that climbing is experience based, and you're always responsible for yourself. You can never stop learning. And it takes time. Not generally a game for those wanting immediate gratification.
When I started, at Squamish and Leavenworth, we didn't have a lot of role models to learn from. We learned, painfully slowly, about everything as we went, starting with simple moderate climbs. It helped that we did a lot of aid and mixed climbing - it provides a lot of experience at placing gear, immediate feedback, and a relatively secure environment. It took a long time to even come close to the edge of the free climbing difficulty envelope, as we slowly "broke through" the 5.8, then 5.9, then (gasp!) 5.10 barriers. But when we did, we were ready.
Werner once told me, many years ago, that he'd done 13 grade Vs before his first grade VI. In context of commenting on those who appeared in the Valley and threw themselves on the nearest name brand grade VI.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Indoor skills are different from what's needed outside. You can get hurt or killed finding out that difference.
Nah. I use the same belay commands, same knots, check my partners harness, same way I clip a draw...indoors as out.
Sure, there's ton more to climbing outside. But, the basics of climbing are the same, indoors and out. And, the movement you can learn in a gym, applies outdoors as well. Heck, with a good coach...
You can also have a lifetime of enjoyment finding out the difference.
Baby steps or giant leap. You gotta get up on that horse by yourself sometime (or not). Whether you picked up some skills in a gym, by reading a book (blame the "how to rock climb" series? Ha ha), by being shown through scouts or friends, or, professional instruction. It'll all be on you when you tie into the sharp end and head up.
Brian in SLC
(who learned to climb outside but really enjoys climbing gyms when going outside isn't practical due to time and weather constraints)
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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As usual, Werner nails it. Blaming a clymin gym for a leaders accident is disingenuous. I have complaints about the gym (blown tendons, loose holds). But to argue they dont teach noobs skills for outdoor climbing just makes you look silly.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:27pm PT
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Rapping, gear selection, setting up a gear belay, rope management, protection placement, covering the second on a traverse, escaping the belay for an injured partner, knowing when to go on or back off, keeping an eye out for the weather, route finding, need I go on?
Gyms obviously have their place. But they don’t prepare you with what you need outside. Only experience outside can do that.
They are different animals.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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Ever climb at Rifle? American Fork? BCC? Shelf Road? Big Chief? Smith Rock? Wild Iris? HCR? NRG?
Obviously, they probably would not be ready for the North Arete on mt. Morrison.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Rapping...escaping the belay for an injured partner...
Been to a number of gyms that teach self rescue...
need I go on?
Please do, the gym is killing my ring finger pulleys...and I seem to have some tendonitis in my left elbow...
Gyms obviously have their place. But they don’t prepare you with what you need outside. Only experience outside can do that.
They are different animals.
Certainly. But, they can prepare you with some basic skills, and, they can be the gateway drug to the out of doors...
Which, depending whether your glass is half full or empty, can be a good or a bad thing...
-Brian in SLC
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Atch,
Or, apparently, Lovers Leap.
Best wishes to the injured climber. Having also hurt myself doing this stuff, my wish is that everybody stays safe, and if not safe, be lucky. Failing those, mend well and quickly.
GM
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:43pm PT
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is there evidence this unfortunate leader ever climbed at a gym?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:49pm PT
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The very first lesson I received on the rock was, "You need
to be comfortable wherever you are." You have to be
comfortable to figure out where the route goes, you have to
be comfortable to place trustworthy protection, you have to
be comfortable to plan the protection system, you have to
be comfortable to figure out the move, and last but not least
you have to be comfortable to make the risk versus return
decision involved in going higher.
From what I have seen the goal in a rock gym is to be
uncomfortable. If you are not uncomfortable you are said to
be doing too easy a climb. Climbing takes place in the
brain. In the brain the two experiences are, in many ways,
diametrically opposed.
I know I will be challenged so I will revert to the story of
Pratt when he was way the hell and gone up a chimney with
no chance of protection. The story goes everyone was
running to the car to get anything that might help. Till Chuck
calmly said, "If no one minds, I believe I will continue."
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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It's been mentioned that she was a Pipeworks climber...
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chumbawumba
climber
SF, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
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"How about a few weeks with "Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills" or a Largo book? Then work up the grades."
This is how my friends and I learned to climb. We knew climbing looked awsome after a trip to Yos. We had no mentors and took no classes. Purchased the above referenced books and read them a couple dozen times (they are still fixtures in my bathroom). We then bought a rope, webbing, some nuts, some biners and were super cautious. We'd make top rope anchors equalized to a dozen different pieces and backed up to tree. The anchor would be tested in every which way we could imagine. When TR'ing got boring we slowly started to lead and work up through the grades. 16 years later and I'm still alive. In hindsite, it was probably the lack of instruction that made us so careful.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 07:19pm PT
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From what I have seen the goal in a rock gym is to be
uncomfortable. If you are not uncomfortable you are said to
be doing too easy a climb. Climbing takes place in the
brain. In the brain the two experiences are, in many ways,
diametrically opposed.
Interesting put, this "comfort" thing. I dunno. I see more folks pushing their limits outside than in, I suppose. I just don't see folks whip in the gym that often. More for training, and, fun, and, ahem, social...
Partly what makes climbing fun, for me, is sometimes treading the "comfort" line.
I remember a friend telling a story of telling a story (!) to one of the local legends in Bozeman. He'd been bouted on some long ice climbing and/or alpine day and reeled off the story of near misses and near disaster and a long day in the mountains. At the end of the story, Obie Wan leaned back, eyes mostly closed, and mused, "ahhh, good. So you were pushed hard, but, it never got out of hand."
I mostly gym climb for fun and a nice work out, not to push it. Miles, and maybe work on a few things. A little bit of discomfort, but, not too much some nights. That, and to keep from backsliding too much (ha ha). Most folks seem to work it that way.
Makes climbing outside more fun, and, more comfortable. Prior to climbing gyms, I had a pretty hefty fear of overhangs. Now, they don't bother me near as much.
Geez, I even back step ice climbing now...
Interesting thoughts....
-Brian in SLC
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 16, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
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One aspect of this no one has really commented on is the change of mentality from "the leader must not fall".
When I started climbing it was not expected that if you dove off stuff all the time nothing bad would come of it. The "sport" mentality seems to be just the opposite.
One other thing I find striking about newer generation climbers is how they regard the difficulty of climbs, and I think this is a direct result of gym climbing. I am not finding fault with the gyms, Lambone, but I notice, actually let me rephrase that, I am constantly amazed by the number of climbers that regard 5.10 as an "easy" grade.
I think this is a disconnect from reality that someone who has gotten really good at gym climbing, but has little or no outdoor experience suffers.
If I could climb 5.13 in a gym (rest assured, I cannot) I can imagine thinking a 5.9 or 5.10 rock route would be easily within my grasp, but there are many reasons this might not be so true.
I also think that climbers who are constantly exposed to dvd's, magazines and internet stuff about the most elite among us tend to think they should be able to do whatever it is the biggest studs out there are capable of. Like placing 3 pieces of pro on an "easy" 5.10 pitch. Hey, the Huber brothers do it, it must be good style!
How many of those reading think that they could huck an 80' road gap on their snowboard or skis? Probably not too many of us would try it, even though you see it done on tv or the ski rags all the time.
Michael
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2007 - 03:27am PT
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Lambone, sorry I did not mean to step on gym owners' toes or to imply that gyms are responsible for accidents that happen outside their doors. The scene that developes around gym climbing just naturally leads to the outdoors. And that can be a great thing. I have seen an entire generation of brilliant young adventurers spawn from the plastic dungeons we build. Escape into the infinite stone, and blue beautiful sky and the wind are your partners. Besides, look what all the pretty people in those Magazines are doing....
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jstan
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 06:08am PT
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We all very much regret what happened for the young lady at the leap. This thead with thoughtful reflections by many people expert at the discipline, is it not a very high tribute to her courage? A superb crew here,eh?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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The gyms have radically altered the ways that folks learn 'trad" climbing in several very important ways.
First, many/most first-time outdoor climbers are much stronger than most of us were when we started-- frequently they have already climbed 5.10 or harder routes indoors.
Second, most gym climbers have learned to be more comfortable with lead falls than was the case for most of us on this forum. Even if they have not personally taken tons of lead falls, they have been climbing in an environment in which falls are an accepted tool for acquiring new skills.
Third, gyms introduce tons of folks to the "outdoors." Earlier generations learned to climb as part of a progression: years of hiking, camping and scrambling, followed by miles of easier technical climbing, with or w/o formal instruction. But many/most of the folks I now see heading up out of the gym to do Cathedral can't even route find on a trail, let alone read weather, scree, granite, or an accident scenario. Gym climbing may have given them a good move vocabulary, great fitness, and a comfort zone on steep angles. But they entirely lack a foundation of basic competence in the outdoors.
The cominbation of these factors, along with the vastly increased climber population, is creating a really rich context for bad things to happen. I don't blame gym owners or indoor climbers for that-- gym owners are responsible for making certain that their customers have a minimal level of safety and competence in that context.
The next obvious step is the one that REI and other outdoor industry folks are taking-- looking at this huge pool of indoor urbanites, eager for a bit of outdoor adventur (and consumer goods purchases), and deciding that they, as reatilers/manufacturers, need to transition these consumers into "trad" climbing or mountaineering or whatever. If this model proves out, we could see an increase in the numbers of people transitioning from the gym to Cathedral or Forbidden, etc. I doubt the bump will be as big as the gym bump of the '90s, but it could have a dramatic impact on pop pressures at the crags and in the backcountry.
We've hijacked this thread a bit, and our observations may not apply in any way to the victim (and tons of us suffered or nearly suffered similar fates while working our way up through the danger years), but I think that the drift has been useful.
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Evdawg
Trad climber
Sacramento/S. Tahoe
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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wow. i'm sad to hear
i can understand how misplaced pro on deception could really cause a bad fall.
deception left, so much easier.. but i think a fall there would be so much worse..
especially since there is acctually really good protection everywhere
hey chainsaw, thanks :]
just i wish i thought about that before I fell off Harvy Walbanger!
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:47am PT
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"I used to teach climbing.
I did not get paid.
I did not say much.
Except: "Follow me"
And off we went to climb.
Why all this heavy Bullshit nowadays.
Blah blah blah, do this, do that, do like this.
They came to climb with me, hoping to still be alive at the end of the day ..... "
Nowdays people sue for spilling coffee. Also, I think we are de-evolving i.e. losing intelligence, based on the way I see some people act.
I also think most of what can be considered BS grew out of people failing to take responsibility for their own actions.
Hope the young lady gets better soon! I'm pretty sure we can agree that accidents can happen anytime, to anyone. How many climbers who didn't learn in the gym are no longer with us? I'm with Lambone on this one, although I can see the paradox between the indoor/outdoor advertising that is referenced to above.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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no hard feelin's chainsaw or jstan.
I'd mostly agree with the points made in klk's post above. Especially that people get strong enough to jump on harder routes by training in the gym but may not be ready for placing pro adequately on the pitch yet...I think that is the biggest common mistake with young trad leaders, getting over their heads.
I learned to trad climb around 1992, from a buddy and Mr. Longs writting and videos. My first lead was a 5.7 trad route with passive gear. It was a few years before I even owned a cam. My first multi-pitch routes were at the leap with that partner/mentor, I was 13, he was 11...and had already done long routes in the Valley with his dad.
My mentality was allways "must not fall" and in retrospect I think that may have kept me safer, but it definately holds me back from pushing my limits now...no matter how good the pro is.
Gene makes a good point agains me that in one breath I say people can't learn trad climbing in the gym...gyms shouldn't tell people they can, but my gyms web site says they can learn trad, aid, rescue, whatever in the gym...
I guess I should be more specific, and claim that you can learn 'the fundementals' of pretty much any climbing skill in a gym, given that the gym has competent instructors and adequate facilities that can mimic natural terrain like 'cracks' and 'belay ledges.' A lot can be simulated in a gym, and it's a good controled enviornment to learn and practice in. Personally I'd rather see groups of noobs or boy scouts learning in a gym rather then crowding all the easy routes at your given outdoor crag.
That being said, unfortunately theree are many gyms out there who don't abide by the Climbing Wall Association standards, and provide unproffesional and sometimes sketchy levels of instruction. This is mostly do to gym owners carring more about making money them providing top quality service, combined with poor/lazy managment. It's really unfortunate for unsuspecting students who don't know any better and don't even realize they are learning sketchy techniques.
I don't think any gym instructor could, nor should suggest to a student that they are ready to go straight outdoors after a class in the gym and do a trad lead, without a guide or mentor. I know when I teach a more advanced class that covers anchors and trad placements I specifically warn people several times throughout the course that what they are seeing are the basic fundementals, it is not enough to qualify you as profficient, and real outdoor experience and training is what they need before they take it to the crags on their own. I recomend that they practice with passive pro on the ground, and mock-lead easy routes etc, at the very least stay a few grades below their limit. My reasons for this are that 1. I fear they would be over confident and get over their heads, 2. They might sue me if they get hurt, 3. Maybe they'll hire me to take them outside.
Overall I think it's good that people have gyms to learn climbing skills in. I'd much rather be at the crags with some gym rats who took a few classes then some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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Lambone last line: "some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills."
Hey, that was me ....
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:13pm PT
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Werner Said:
"Lambone last line: "some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills."
Hey, that was me ...."
yeah but that was also 'back in the day'...before nylon ropes and aluminum biners 'n sh#t. ;)
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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Thought I might chime in on this thread, though it seems to be winding down.
First, best of wishes to the leader that fell. She went for it, and although she came up short, she (luckily) survived it and will learn from the experience.
Second, there is NO evidence that any gym was involved in her training or lack thereof; despite a reference to having climbed at Pipeworks. All speculation about that aspect is just that - speculation.
Third, we (meaning climbers in general) must all be personally responsible for our own safety.
Before leading the easiest of traditional style climbs, we must (in reality, as opposed to wishful-thinking-land) be able to both place gear solidly AND to accurately evaluate already placed gear for safety.
The leader clearly did not fulfill this. The fall is her fault and no one else's.
Folks, I learned to place gear from an older climber that I tagged along with and followed up routes. I asked him to teach me - how to place, how to evaluate, how and why things worked, how to make my safety system largely redundant. I took the knowledge he gave me and supplemented it with reading and practice.
I was responsible for my own level of knowledge and proficiency, and still am. I make the call on how close to the "unsafe" line I choose to tread, by making a value-judgement on whether to get on a climb that has scant pro, runouts, etc. I ask questions like, how dangerous IS it? Is there significant probability I'll fall? What are the most likely results of a fall? Etc...
Danger is inherent in this sport. Don't try and blaim the gyms -they're only a distant cousin of trad climbing outside, without much correlation.
Come back to reality - put any blame squarely where it belongs -on the shoulders of climbers who aren't honest with themselves (and their partners) about their skills and judgement in a real world.
You are responsible for your safety while climbing. (That's what makes it fun!) All the rest is BS.
My $.02
-Aaron
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ontos
Boulder climber
Washington DC
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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I think the real trouble is the institutionalization of climbing instruction, be that in the gym or outdoors with a paid instructor. I'm not a terribly experienceed climber but I'm no noob when it comes to risk management. I come from a surfing background; started climbing when my job took me away from the sea. I've never had any formal surfing instruction, so when a day is big or conditions are sketchy, I take things slow, do my own analysis, assess the risk involved and make a call. Never have I outsourced concern for my own safety when surfing.
I think in climbing, this idea is even more critical; you never know, even if you're with a paid instrutor, when things will go sideways and you might be in for a bit of an epic. I've read numerous climbing manuals many times and I think the final chapters of The Freedom of the Hills have been the most critical to my climbing safety (leadership, risk management etc.).
Paid instruction runs contrary to these idea. You show up at the local gym or crag, some nice fellow shows you how to tie in/belay/make an anchor/set a piece of pro, makes you feel safe, assures you that you're going to have a great day etc. Of course all instructors stress the importance of safety, but the inter-personal dynamics of the situation lead the student to the mindset that he or she is being looked after (a good thing), but in my experience with paid instruction, I have not been encouraged to think critically and really apply my judgement to any situation. Rote learning of climbing techniques takes away the all important judgement step. It presents climbing as a series of discrete steps like cooking from a book, where in reality what is needed is not just expansive knowledge of techniques, but also the judgement to use the correct technique in a given situation. Maybe climbing was safer before the mainstream availability of proffessional climbing instruction.
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Dragger
Mountain climber
Bay Area, CA
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Oct 27, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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"I did Deception three weeks ago, anybody that's climbed outside for a year could stay on route. Pro was obvious and solid, the traverse was stacked with dikes, way obvious."
I want to follow YOU on this route, Jeff. :^)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Oct 27, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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Blaming the gym is ridiculous.
Blame the morons that think they have learned all they need to know in the gym and then head out onto the real rocks.
It's personal stupidity that is the culprit.
A failure to grasp the gravity of the situation..(pun intended).
When I learned to lead, and place pro, BITD, it was mostly from reading books like Advanced Rockcraft etc. and then going out and trying stuff.I never took any leading class...
I guess I should be dead.
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scrappy
Big Wall climber
california
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Jul 26, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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she's totally fine now and she's walking again and I have'nt heard that she's back in climbimg mode yet! But she will be soon I hope! I just stop by at sacramento couple months ago to see her and pick up my down jacket that she use after the rescue while waiting (2 hrs.) for the SAR to pick her up since she was feeling soo cold. I've heard that they fly her out to Reno and find out that Reno cant accomodate her so they fly her to davis which she stay their for a couple of weeks for recovery.
P.S. I thought climbers are cool! But they are whiners whine! whine! shut up and climb!
WW
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
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Bottom line is you can't push a high volume of people through a commercial system of constrained, emulated climbing and then turn them loose on the real thing without a fairly consistent and predictable accident rate. Also, those coming out of the gyms are more and more often 'sprad' climbing - sport climbing on gear - which introduces a veritable pandora's box of problems of perception. When gear is assumed to and treated like it provides the exact same 'protection' and [rest] capabilities as bolts, bad things can and do happen.
Can experienced climbers get away with it fine? Sure. But, most folks coming out of the gym thinking they are learning to 'trad climb' haven't, in fact, changed any other aspect of their climbing: assumptions, tactics, perceptions, risk management, and basic thinking about what they are doing often remain the same. That sets up situations which are a real recipe for disaster, and one that's being played out over and over again around the country. Top that off with climbers these days splitting their time between bouldering, sport, and trad versus focusing exclusively on trad and you have a much flatter trad learning curve to boot.
Glad to hear this climbers going to be ok...
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Max2
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 26, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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All Concerned;
It would be interesting to see the statistics on this matter: e,g via post-accident narratives, to answer the question: Are gym climbers confident yet unprepared for lead climbing within their formally recognized climbing range? Or are there simply more climbers exposed to the potential for injury now versus x years in the past? Either way, the numbers should speak for themselves to focus gyms on lead climbing methods / advice.
Having recently returned to this sport, after a 10 year break, I have noticed that many gym climbers highly adept at hard face routes know very little about crack climbing. Again, this is my own parochial perspective, but there does appear to be few opportunities to practice/train at the gyms I attend (bay area and thousand oaks, Ca; and Boston/NYC). Physically, the exercise is considerably different, and imho, requires years of experience to get it down right.
Take Care
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 26, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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I don't see how anyone could fall on Deception! It's an easy solo. Too bad and best wishes to the injured climber.
Gym climbers can never be prepared for that low angle , slabby climbing, but it's easy!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 20, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Hmmm, shizz does happen. For example Rik Rieder on El Cap back in the 1970s. A sound and excellent climber (and an extremely nice human) but the 'flake' that broke didn't know that (Gramicci knows first hand about this one).
My closest disaster? Back around 1975, letting a certain Claude talk me into not setting a belay anchor at the base of Stone Groove because "I've led this twice and I have it wired". After setting no pro except one piece about 30 feet up, who decides (not by his own volition) to peel off about 30 feet above that piece?
The piece held but I was sucked into the wall because I had no anchor to hold me, so Claudie boy took a grounder, but thankfully just barely (which would not have happened if I was tied to an anchor, because I 'held' my belay, so to speak). No injuries but it sure taught me a lesson, and this after over six years of climbing and loads of belays, leads and seconding.
That said, it was really the first time such a mishap occurred, because I was taught early on about placing proper pro (and anchors, except for that one Stone Groove incident, which taught me 'never again'.)
I read about these accidents, such as this one on this thread, and wonder, 'did these people have proper training?'.
Back in 1970, when my mom saw that I was getting serious about climbing, she told me she wanted me to have proper training outside of the somewhat 'haphazard' lessons that one of my older brothers (who didn't know much himself), Mac, was giving me.
So off for a week to the Palisades School of Mountaineering, where people like Smoke Blanchard, Chris Fredericks, Doug Robinson and John Fischer instilled in me a sense of responsible climbing, including placing sound pro and anchors.
Perhaps gym climbers and others should consider such training before hitting the real stuff.
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Rich the Brit
Trad climber
San Ramon, CA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 04:18am PT
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Cams are just too damn cheap these days. I think Cams have cost about $50 forever. After taking into account inflation, the real cost of rack of cams has come down dramatically.
When I started climbing in the early 90s, my partners and I could barely afford to put 8 cams on the rack. There was nothing smaller than a yellow alien that was really worth placing (cam stem was almost as wide as cam wheels).
Also, at least half of them were rigid stems, so you tended to only use them in very predicatble placements.
My point - the art of learning to place bomber nut/hex placements is being lost to cheapeness of cams. When you tug on a nut, you can often feel any undetected weakness, e.g flake expansion. Also, cams are not as predicatble in a fall as nut. Yes they are quick to place, but don't rely on cams if you don't have too, or at least intersperse them with nut placements.
Rich
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Kindredlion
Big Wall climber
4hrs too far from YNP
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Feb 11, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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BWahhahahahHahahha!!
thanks Scrappy for the rescue and the insight!
Werner you too..
shut up and climb!
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