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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 16, 2007 - 02:41am PT
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My partner and I ran a number of laps on Fish Crack this afternoon and got to talking about the grade. He seems to remember reading somewhere that it was originally rated .11+ or .11something. It was then upgraded to .12b... Why??? There are a number of .11d climbs that are harder. He says .11c, I say if so, it's a soft .11c. It's just not that hard. What about real a real .12b such as 'A Dog's Roof'? Or even a .12a such as 'Horshoes and Hand Grenades'? Both are significantly harder. In a different realm, actually.
Other than Barber "stealing" the FA of the climb, what's the history? Why the upgrade? Why the hoopla about bad or hard to get pro? There is neither on the climb. Sure, you have to be careful where you place pro in the crux, so as not to get in the way of your hand and foot placements, but there is pro all over that crack! Good pro. Easy pro. So, what's the story? Regardless, it's a really enjoyable climb. Just curious.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:47am PT
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I thought A Dogs was pish..... 11b/c, of course I did it on TR, but first try. I think they call it a hand size phenomenon.
Can't believe Barber stole that other one from me ;)
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:50am PT
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Good on Ya!
In the 70's it was referred to as the hardest 5.11, and when I did it I got in a couple of wired #2 hexes to protect the thin part. Seemed harder than the other 5.11+'s that were the standard of the day, like pinky paralysis, calculator, blind faith first pitch. Have not been on it for 27 years, to assess how it stacks up with plug and go gear, and sticky rands, or with the new rating. Still would not expect to find it easier than 11d, but I could be light!
Peter
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:54am PT
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Peter, how does it (Fish Crack) compare to Stubs or Tips?
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:06am PT
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Stubs? Is that what you had left after you did Tips?
I thought Tips was pretty hard too, and I did it when you climbed up the crusty old aider to get started, but whats the point, we should just quote Salathe, "John they climbed our route in 3 hours! twinkle in eye smile, "no they didn't do our route Al, not our route".
All those routes were on the "proud circuit" when .12s were rare, and those who sent them even rarer.
Peter
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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Hey thanks for responding, guys!
"I thought A Dogs was pish..... 11b/c, of course I did it on TR, but first try."
Wow! Proud, Russ! 135* overhanging rattly fingers! Do you have fat sausages for fingers?! That's badass that you did it on the first go, even on TR!
You really found Fish Crack to be harder than Kaukulator, Peter? What about the crux pitch of The Rostrum?
Maybe different strokes for different folks, I guess? Different hand sizes? I think Fish Crack could be a bit height/reach dependent... I was able to do the crux in less moves than Blaine, but I have quite a reach advantage over him (6' with +2 reach). I set a super good foot lower in the layback and then a decent left foot high, stand up and grab the good hold to the right. It's over from there.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 16, 2007 - 04:47am PT
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i ALMOST flashed fish crack...actually fell while hanging off those huge black intrusion jugs at the top 'cause i was so fukking pumped. did it next try. this was '86 or so. back then it seemed like a valley standard for 12a. mos def WAY harder than butterballs .it was way way mos def way harder than tips. tips, you can do that whole f*#kin' thing on your feet, it's a slab....
stubs is hard. if fish is 12a, stubs is 12c, IMHO.
dog's roof is a whole different kettle of fish, definately finger-size dependent. did it on my third try. 2nd try i fell out of the shallow corner over the roof and almost decked.
assuming yer on the lead, of the four: dog's is the hardest and scariest -- 'specially with mid-80's gear; stubs is the most technically difficult -- gotta milk some sick ultra-tips locks on that f*#ker, feels a lot like a woodson route; for me, cold turkey/fish crack didn't have a single move harder than 5.11b but was pretty enduro; and tips was always a very, very pleasant walk in the park, 'specially if you stepped out onto the no-hands rest on the black knob about 3/4 of the way up the route.
just my .02 cents. that's CENTS, asshats, not BAC.
by the way, did i mention i'm SWOLE? just fyi.
y'all can go to bed now. me? i'm gonna watch t.v. and have crazy monkey sex with pink elephants. swear to god, the things they can do with that trunk....
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 10:05am PT
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Having just today learned what SWOLE means (thank Mighty Hiker!) I would have to say it all comes down to where you are SWOLE and when.
For Tips: Swole in the calves is all you need. (never heard of Stubs so can't say)
For Calculator, for the two hard moves, or A Dogs for the whole thing, swole fingers seems to help.
For old slabs like Greasy but Groovy swole balls is certainly required.
For the Fish, swole but not too swole forearms gets you through. (musta been heartbreaking to pitch off the jugs, I feel your pump man)
To down rate old classics and crow about it here, or for me to jump in and smirk about doing a lot of the 5.11+ circuit as a kid, pre-cams in EB's,
that only takes a Swole head!
lol,
Peter
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Sep 16, 2007 - 10:35am PT
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Heh, good one Peter!
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tiki-jer
climber
fresno/clovis
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Sep 16, 2007 - 12:13pm PT
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Russ, get back to work....where's my Chalkbag.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Well ya all maybe swole, but Barber is an ahole for stealing fish crack.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 16, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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Nef: if my fingers are swole from climbing, they fit pretty darn snug in a 1" crack.
Yellow Myers Guide edit:
Stubs: FA: Werner Braun, Dale Bard, Ed Barry, 1980 (5.12 no letter)
Tips: FA: John Bachar, Ron Kauk, 1975 (11d)
Fish Crack: FA: Hot Henry et al, 1975 (12a)
A Dogs: FA: Ray Jardine, 5/77 (12a)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 16, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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Werner wrote: Well ya all maybe swole, but Barber is an ahole for stealing fish crack.
Who did he steal it from?? Where did he take it?? To the Gunks??
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
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Try "Fish Crack" with stoppers and hexes like when Henry did it...it's crazy man.
He did rate it 5.11d BTW.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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JB wrote: Try "Fish Crack" with stoppers and hexes like when Henry did it...it's crazy man.
He did rate it 5.11d BTW.
And a one inch swami.
Walleye...I know the history of the route and have climbed with Henry.
It was a little joke.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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Yeah and put on some o' dem green Vasque "whatchyamacallit" platform edging boots Henry used to like to wear....
Bod d' - What were those green Vasques called anyway?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2007 - 02:55pm PT
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Swole heads... hahaha I guess we all have that sometimes. I'd go along with what John said about the climb being originally rated as .11d. I can see that, for sure. Still don't see it as .12b. And if it's due to the "enduro factor", then what about the climb next door? While I haven't done "the Cringe", it seems to me that CC would be way more enduro than "Fish Crack". FC is definitely a little enduro. I actually find the hardest move to be pulling into the lieback off of the big rest knob on the left. And even when it's not terribly hot, this climb feels greasy when it's in the sun!
It's so interesting to see everyone's take on different climbs throughout the valley. Cool, actually, to hear Russ, JB, Peter, bvb's and everyone else's thoughts. That's what makes this place cool! F*#king badass that you guys were doing stuff like this in EBs and swamis with nuts and hexes for pro! That certainly adds to the burl/pucker factor!
It's a nice line and fun climbing... I'd be pissed too Werner! Bummer.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:58pm PT
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I thought Stubs was ridiculous -it completely shut me down and agree w/ JB's comment regarding means of ascent, not to mention the psychological barrier involved. I mean, the attitude after Fire's alone hit the scene, it changed so much of the sport. Then with better small cams, well, I mean, that made it possible for timid moderates like me to actually lead things like Tips, Butterballs, Pinky, Blind Faith 1st, etc. With nuts and EB's, I doubt it, probably no way.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:03pm PT
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We called 'em green 'nards.
Shoenards?
Ascenders?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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John, green shoenairds. I climbed with Henry right after the Breach Wall deal. He had these little inserts (carbon fiber) for putting into eb's for more edging power.
We were climbing in northern New Mexico at the time waiting for sun to hit the cliff around 10 am... Henry looks at his watch and says...it must be happy hour somewhere, knocks down a few beers then climbs a new 5.11c/d r thin seam/crack on sight with about three pieces of gear in 70 feet.
We named it Life in the Fast Lane.
He was/is a gifted climber.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:23pm PT
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RE:
"the Breach Wall deal"
wonder how many remember that?
I'd like to hear more...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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Ray...Henry got a bad rap on that one. Very few climbers could have gotten Rob down alive. He got lost on the decent after the fall and had to bushwack through unknown terrain (for Him) and finally got help after wandering lost for a few days avoiding lions and the such and getting help for Rob. Henry stayed until Rob was in the hospital and secure.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 16, 2007 - 04:03pm PT
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sorry for thread drift here Nefarius,
RE:
"Henry stayed until Rob was in the hospital and secure."
that's amazing since the "word" was so contrary to that but somehow I'm not surprised by the distortion. wow.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Sep 16, 2007 - 06:57pm PT
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Thread drift, maybe, but fascinating, besides.
Would someone tell the whole story, please?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 16, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
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I'll start - from what I remember.
The scene - Breach Wall Mt Kilimanjaro.
Henry Barber, Rob Taylor(?) go down there to make an ascent.
There is an accident, and a controversy about responsible action ensues - it goes national. Henry Barber's reputation is challenged.
ok, someone else?
Bob?
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J. Werlin
climber
Cedaredge
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Sep 16, 2007 - 07:32pm PT
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The Breach
For only $2.26 you can read the whole tale. Kind of a classic. But Barber certainly gets cast in a dark light.
Bob D' maybe it's time for a Hot Henry thread. Let some of the old valley boys rant/vent.
Sorry for the drift.
Fish crack. In '91 I climbed a bit with Chris Gill at the City. Later, I got a card from him saying he had flashed the Fish Crack thus winning a 6-pack on a bet with Henry.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 17, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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Nefarius,
Back then Fish crack was often compared to the Cringe when considering the rating. Also a classic case of where ones strengths lie. Back then I was a ninety pounder with precise toes and twig arms. The more technical Fish was a lot easier for me to tackle than the enduro Cringe. But more burly dudes often said the Cringe was easier, and must of encouraged the rating inflation. I led both the same year, 78, each one second try respectively. For me on those "try" meant I fell off once, split and came back weeks or months later and sent it.
For the Cringe, I followed a gym workout Mark and Max gave me. Back when gyms were gyms, I used to be the only tiny white guy straining to push iron around in the Berkeley YMCA basement, getting encouragement from black football dudes, or on school nights in the city, being a minority as a straight guy - lift weights maybe skip the showers at the Y on Golden Gate in the tenderloin.
It paid off and I sent it that spring, first time I used a cam, just one, and 4 #7 hexes. But I stopped at the old anchors, since JB hadn't chopped them yet.
I am psyched to send it with the undercling, next spring if not before, 30 year rematch!
Peter
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Sep 17, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
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To the person starting this thread. When you say you "did laps" on Fish Crack, does that mean you were top-roping? If so, how could you know how hard such a climb was? Or did you sight-lead it and do laps leading? Just curious.
Henry was simply brilliant, and he wasn't in today's magic shoes. He was using some awful Vasque Ascenders. Nor did he have #1 Friends, etc., and it was a much more difficult thing then.
As for "stealing" the route. I will beg to differ with you, my friend, Werner. Is everyone an "as#@&%e" who steps in when someone else goes away? But the fact is, Barber led up to near the top, with rain falling, slipped, and fell about 30 feet. John and Ron attempted the route the next day but didn't succeed. Ron fell 25 or 30 feet on a small stopper wedged between two crystals. John went up and wouldn't commit -- in part because he didn't like the look of that stopper that had kept Ron from going into the river and probably dying. Barber returned the following day and led it. Now it's much easier with Friends and better shoes.
If you will read the account in Wizards of Rock, you will see that John did not at all feel the route was stolen. He sings high praises of Henry, as does and should reflect his own greatness of character.
Pat
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Sep 17, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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Hmmm ... seemed at the time (ebs, hex nuts and early stoppers) the rating was less the issue than the protection and resulting sense of doom. I just couldn't get what seemed like adequate pro at a key thin point. Then I fell on the very pro in question, which usually made me feel better (when it held, of course!) but in this case I just got more nervous and mad and admiring of Henry's brain and nervous and ... you know the cycle. After starting the whole thing over and fiddling and fiddling again with the pro, I just went for it at the touchy part and got it, so pooped I nearly came off the higher jugs bvb writes about.
Later, I thought about the rating and concluded, who knows, but compared to Butterballs (a benchmark of the time), ya maybe a grade harder. But what preoccupied me far more was wondering where Henry got his brain, because I assumed he too had iffy pro at a hard section. I took Fish as a mind game of the time and Henry as a mind thriller of the day. So many of his feats seemed more brain than brawn climbs, just as Pat writes, for he didn't do any super work out regime that I knew about anyway. And then there was his barefoot phase ...
For me, the people making the lines on rock are more interesting than the lines themselves. Come to think about it, there is no such thing as a route. It is a complete artifact, a notion in our brains, a topo in a book or website, with meaning only as people called climbers move over the lines with their expectations, hopes, equipment, reactions and counter reactions just as on this thread, all a web of sharing, yaking, or just silent pondering, a neuron hum inside.
Hats off to Henry, then, and whatever buzz Fish made and makes for all following along one or more of his fine, often mind tweaking paths.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 17, 2007 - 08:29pm PT
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Tom, Oli, thanks for the posts. You guys rule.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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Pat
There's a lot more to it then the simplistic explanation you're giving. A lot more.
But we'll leave it as that and that's fine since it's history and not that important and we'll take the better road and focus on the good.
And the replies from yourself and Higgins were nice, and yes there's no doubt about it he was a Master of Stone and blew me away as how he could climb some of those hard routes in those shitty ass green horrible shoes.
He probably could have climbed that stuff in roller skates too.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Sep 18, 2007 - 02:16am PT
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Sorry Werner if I left anything out, but I never knew Henry to "steal" anyone's route. That would, of course, imply someone owned it in the first place. No one owns any line of climbing just because they might have designs on it, though I know some people felt they did own a climb if they, say, discovered it or were trying it first. I suppose there is a certain respect people could pay another party making an effort, but if someone wants to try too then they must be allowed to do so. When I spoke with Bachar about the climb he made a point not to say anything about Henry stealing the route. He only had praise for Henry, and that's probably because he (Bachar) has the right perspective on it, whatever might have seemed strange back then. It would be interesting, though, to know what toes were stepped on back then, just for some little historical context, without saying anything bad about anyone.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2007 - 11:14am PT
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As to Oli's question... The route was lead, and then TR'd a number of times. Really, besides the point, however. I have done this with a number of routes, as tons of other people do, and have found this crack to be significantly easier than climbs rated a number of grades lower. Pretty standard day, really - find a hard crack, lead, run a couple of laps, move on to something else. Rinse repeat. Seems a whole lot better than getting stronger in a gym to me.
I was just curious what the history was, etc., having heard there was a re-grading of the thing. With this logic, however, maybe if someone like Kauk walks up and leads the thing, then leaves a solo TR system there and runs some laps on it it becomes easier, huh? That'd be really cool! Next time you see him, can you ask him to do that on some routes on the Captain as it would speed up my schedule for freeing something there?! I'm looking at the West Face, btw (in case you're reading, Ron). Maybe we can get Astroman down to the .10's too so endurance isn't as much of a factor? Thanks, appreciate it.
As far as Henry... I'm not sure when Fish Crack went up, but I saw pics of him on Butterballs, circa 1973 and he wasn't wearing any stiff boots as described above. He was wearing some sort of climbing shoe. Just an observation. I understand the argument about the pro, etc, however, one would have to assume that the other climbs of the era were being put up with the same gear, shoes, style, etc. So that really doesn't pan out.
All things said, in modern times, with modern shoes and gear, I found the crack to be .11c/d at best, in comparison to climbs that went up during the same time. Others, who are supremely more "qualified" than me to throw a grade at this thing agreed, while others thought that climbs significantly harder, in my mind, were easier than FC... What does this say? It says everyone has differing strengths and weaknesses and varying body dimensions.
It's kinda difficult to talk about stuff like this on the net. I think a lot of meaning gets lost. I was basically trying to share my experience and ask other's opinions. Pretty harmless, really... Basically, "Hey, I did this today... Here's my take on it. What did you think?"
Cheers!
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Sep 18, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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I think it's bad news to hear that Fish Crack could be easier
than Kaukulator...because that means Kaukulator, which I actually
want to do, is harder than Fish Crack, which is too hard for me
to think about.
Just rain on my parade, why don't you?
Really, thanks for starting up a good entertaining thread,
Nefarius.
sm
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nate
Trad climber
virginia
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Sep 18, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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For what it is worth, this spring I walked butterballs and fell once on fish crack. If we are to think of them as similar styles they are not of similar difficulty. Tips w the start and not the aider felt harder than the fish -but it also felt harder than any other 12a in history. So with modern gear if Butterballs is 11c , fish could be 11d/12a, and tips could be 12b ? When you start bringing into play similar climbs from other areas say Leave it to jesus at the new river gorge, crime of the century in squamish, and others (maybe desert climbs) I don't think the fish would stand out as being soft at 12a.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 19, 2007 - 02:26am PT
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ok, altho i am SO not worthy, i'd just like to chime in with my humble opinon:
if someone scouts a line, then spends a lot of time cleaning it up (a lot of now-classic routes in teh lower merced required HEAVY vegitation removal)...
i thnk they should have a few months to send...at the least, as much time as it took to clean.
seems fair, right?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 19, 2007 - 11:26am PT
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I first did Fish Crack with Hugh Herr and remember well why it was so difficult. You have to arrange protection while in a pump inducing rounded layback most of the way up the route, which makes the onsight flash a very demanding prospect. The crack is flared and had lots of irregularities on the inside that shut down any easy slotting. Combine that with being unable to easily pull in and inspect the potential placements and a very limited arsenal of gear (tiny teetering wired hexes) and you have your hands full.
Hugh didn't get it first try without a hang up high. As I cleaned his pro by yanking straight down on the pieces in plain sight from his belay, I would repeat my mentor's mantra. "Hugh, you are a lucky boy," I would drone and move up to the next piece of cheese. Wonder that he was, Hugh came back two seasons later, sans feet, and sent the thing! Absolutely amazing!
Henry was an extraordinary climber beyond any doubt but I think he paid a high price in integrity and friendship to achieve the notoriety and fame that he needed.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Thanks for sharing all of the cool stories guys!
Goes to show what a wonderful thing cams can be, I guess.
bvb: I'd go along with that. I know this is one of those topics that will get people riled, one way or the other. No one "owns" the route, or even claims to "own" routes, I don't think. However, when you've put some time into cleaning a route and getting it ready to climb, and then some jackass sneaks in and sends the route after your hard work, I can see people, certainly myself, being kinda pissed about it. It's certainly kind of a dick move and not cool.
For this reason, when I am working on something or have found a new area with potential, I keep it a secret. I'll talk about it after they're sent. In the end, I'm sure it's saving someone some pain.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Sep 19, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
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When I did Fish crack in '87(w/tcu's and sticky rubber)I had a hell of a time protecting the top without plugging the jams I wanted to use. After frustratingly fumbling with gear(resulting in a numb pointer finger)I finally got a good piece and went for it. I didn't lie back the crux so I don't know that sequence, but jamming it felt pretty secure. I don't recall endurance being an issue with the big stance before the crux. Based on my experience the 5.12- grade, which I think is fair, was more about placing good gear and thin technical jamming.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 19, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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BVB said: "if someone scouts a line, then spends a lot of time cleaning it up (a lot of now-classic routes in teh lower merced required HEAVY vegitation removal)...
i thnk they should have a few months to send...at the least, as much time as it took to clean. seems fair, right?"
So, what's the backstory on VanBelle Syndrome and Vanbellodrome?
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