Discussion Topic |
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 30, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an epidemiologist to realize that if you don't strictly enforce your borders and screen legal immigrants health, you're going to have health epidemics that have either been wiped out or never existed in the first place.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070830/D8RBARF80.html
Now, Bush the fool and all the one-worlders in Congress are going to allow South American trucks to travel into our country with realtive ease. The first leagl challenge to this North American Union is coming from, of all places, a large union.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003859913_mextrucks30.html
With the vast majority of Americans opposed to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, when are our leaders going to do something about it? Only a handful of leaders ever speak publicly about the problems associated with illegal immigration, which are countless. Unfortunately, when they do speak up about it, they're called racist xenophobes...usually by illegal immigrants or groups for illegal immigrant rights. Illegal immigrant rights, what an oxymoron.
And before somebody says the inevitable, there's a vast difference between controlled LEGAL IMMIGRATION and uncontolled ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 12:51pm PT
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bluering,
I apologize for what my people have done to you and yours. The damage can never be repaid. The epidemics we brought and forced upon you cut your people down to a fraction of their size.
And we did it out of greed.
F*#k, it's embarrassing to be an American, but I think we need to put it behind us and move on.
What tribe are you from?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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Andy, what we did inadvertantly to native American indians was tragic, I agree. The question however is should we ignore the lesson learned from that, or maybe try to learn from the mistakes made.
Australia had very strict immigration laws targeted directly at Souteastern Asian people because they were accutely aware of the disease potential from them. That's also why they, still to this day, have extemely strict quarantine laws regarding household pets coming into the country. The indigenous Aussie animal population was rabies free, and free from alot of other animal-born disease. That's just a smart policy, nothing else.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 01:33pm PT
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I just don't see how we can be blocking/banning people from a country that isn't even ours.
We stole this land by slaughtering countless people. Then, hundreds of thousands of immigrants moved here and started creating rules, and banning other immigrants. Most of the people that we didn't slaughter were killed off by our diseases.
I know there is no way to repair what we have done. And I agree that it makes sense to protect ourselves.
I just think it's kind of ironic that you are complaining about epidemics. That was a key element in making this nation what it is today!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Andy, read my original post again. I'm not against legal immigration at all. I'd just like to see it controlled, and illegal immigration stopped.
I'm a 3rd generation Italian/German immigrant myself. My grandfather had to go through health screening before being granted citizenship. Is that asking too much? From what I understand our legal immigration process is pretty thourough in terms of health screening and quarantining. It's the illegal entrants that bypass this system that are a potential health problem, among other problems.
We have recognized our mistakes in the past regarding native Americans too. We have even dedicated land for them to use as they see fit that is subject to their own rules/lifestyles. While it doesn't make up for all of the crimes we're guilty of, it's a pretty nice deal for them.
Oh, do you know what the Mexican government does to people who enter their country illegally from other South American countries?
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thinksforhimself
climber
fresno, ca
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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We stole this land
So since the US was the first to land on the moon, does that mean it is one of our states?
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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Bluering: The military campaigns against Native Americans, the extermination of bison ("the [plains] Indians' commissary"), and the distribution of clothing contaminated with small pox, among other examples from our history, were deliberate, not inadvertent.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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bluering,
I agree with what you're saying. I'm just playing Devils advocate and being a troll (that's kind of my thing).
But I really do find a lot of hypocrisy in creating some sort of policy like that. Yes, it's necessary. But it's still hypocritical, considering our past.
Oh, and Crowleysforhimself, bluering already posted that link.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:51pm PT
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John, I knew it wouldn't be long before the 'immigrants right attorney' showed up. I have alot of doubts that the small-pox distribution was intentional. If it was, why didn't we just exterminate all natives...you know, genocide.
Everyone knows the 'white man' did indeed take advantage of natives, and it was wrong. Natives weren't exactly nice to each other either. I have alot of respect for the symbiotic lifestyle that native Americans had for their environment. The white-man showed up and was another player in the game of Northern American development. Indiands killed each, indians raped and killed white people, white people did the same. It was a savage way of life back then. Just because the white-man became the dominant player and 'won', doesn't mean we have to have this guilt that you seem to have. We brought with us a system of laws and governance that eventually ended the savage ways. And we also learned to live together with native people and give them the respect they deserved.
Everybody deserves a chance to live in this country, they just need to do it in a legal and respectful manner, free of any contageous disease. Hell, we even cure the diseases in some cases, and then let them assimilate in the the population.
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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Unless you'd propose quarentining everyone trying to enter the US for a holiday, business, whatever, you can't cut off potential "foreign" diseases. The world is a lot more integrated than it used to be, with all the opportunities and disadvantages that entails.......
Quite honestly, Id say the money that would have to be spent to screen everyone trying to enter the country would be better spent beefing up public healthcare and epidemiology programs.
And this is coming from a microbiologist who just got his Green Card!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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Andy, it's only hipocritical it we're still engaging in those policies. If you learn from mistakes and change your stance it's not hipocracy, just learning.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:58pm PT
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Irish, that's a damn good point. But there are certain places where communicable diseases are rampant, I'm sure you know this. It would be irresponsible to allow free, unfettered access to/from those areas. That's why you need to get typhoid, malaria, gamma-globulin, and certain other innoculations when travelling to certain countries. Not just so that you don't catch the disease, but also so you don't bring it back with you in your infected body.
Edit; Welcome to America too!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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The old "we stole this land" song and dance is getting old and tired. It's such a f*#king cop out. We could easily point to any country in the world and say they "stole" it, so they have no right to do anything to make it a safe place, efficient, etc... When it comes down to it, it's just another way to avoid and not do anything about a real, and growing, problem.
It's about as pointless as this conversation will prove to be.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:14pm PT
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>>Unless you'd propose quarentining everyone trying to enter the US for a
>>holiday, business, whatever, you can't cut off potential "foreign" diseases.
How's about we make a reasonable effort to greatly reduce our exposure to foreign disease.
Who would say: "We can't 100% be sure to prevent it, so lets not try" ?
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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Nothing wrong with trying to reduce the spread of disease. Quarentine can be an effective tool for this. But if you decide its a tool you want to use, why not use it at the state/city level as well?
New York has a lot more TB than other areas of the country, for instance.........
I think that once you start to designate people from specific geographical areas as high-risk (absent an active disease outbreak in that area), you're opening a whole can of worms. What do you do about US nationals traveling to such areas for instance? Quarentine them upon their return?
On one level, proposals like this are nothing but basic, common sense public health measures. Outbreak of highly infectous XYZ in country A - I don't think many people would have an issue with screening, travel restrictions etc.
It's a problematic issue though - how do you decide which diseases are bad enough to put measures like that in place? What kind of incidence is the trigger level? A lot of questions that are open to abuse by those with various axes to grind.....
Bart - its the definaition of "reasonable effort" that is the crux of the problem. As can be seen from this board, everyones idea of reasonable differs. Scientists, politicians, members of the public would all likely differ on "reasonable effort". And would it apply to US citizens too? Case in point, the guy who flew back from Italy a few months ago with a highly drug-resistant strain of TB...... should he have been locked up? What about someone with a milder strain?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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"What do you do about US nationals traveling to such areas for instance?"
Not a traveler, eh?
Ummm.... well, for one, you have to get vaccinated before going to areas known to have a high concentration of something. For instance, before going to Thailand, I had to have all kinds of vaccinations. The critical one being TB. TB is rampant in Southeast Asia.
Ironically, at the time, there were only a couple of places in Fresno that could do the vaccination and test. One was the Health Dept. They told me, "DO NOT COME HERE!!! Most of the Southeast Asians in the lobby/waiting room have it and there is a high probability that you will get it if you come here." They also told me that somehting along the lines of 90% of the Southeast Asians have it. So are we being prejudiced to quarantine/vaccinate certain groups for certain things? Or are we just being smart?
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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what if foreign countries don't want US citizens to travel there, for fear that all their kids will all of a sudden become obese?
(btw- your "fear" is about that valid, and smacks of pat buchanan warning us all on fauxnews that the illegal mexicans are bringing back leprosy, what you ought to be really afraid of is having nobody in the us who is willing to pick your fruits and veggies, biatch!)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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Matt, so veggies laden with disease is better than more expensive veggies?
There will never be a veggie/fruit shortage, maybe just more expensive. Sounds like you're using the scare tactics now, not Buchanon. And weren't the leprosy, flesh-eating disease, hepatitus, and TB outbraks all very real non-native diseases?
Edit: leprosy link for Matt
http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-15/whitford-americanleprosy/
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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damm ..
I never cease to be amazed by the bigotry in the U.S. Look into yourself, get some counseling and learn to live with the folks around you.
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thinksforhimself
climber
fresno, ca
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
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I never cease to be amazed by the bigotry in the U.S.
yeah, if only we could develop the tolerance and understanding of Mexico or Iran.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Right. Why be so closed minded to communicable disease ?
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thinksforhimself
climber
fresno, ca
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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"yeah, if only we could develop the tolerance and understanding of Mexico or Iran."
They are countries. Don't get outside Arkansas much, huh?
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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You guys are worried about diseases from Mexicans? Where the hell were you 10 years ago when it might have mattered. It's a done deal now and we don't seem any worse for the wear, health wise.
Besides, with the coming crash of the American way of life you aren't really going to be concerned about either immigration or the diseases they might carry. You will be wanting food and shelter though. And those IRAs, they will be but a faint memory, sucked into the vast pit of the money managers' pockets.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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I was wondering how long it take for someone to call me a bigot because they have no valid argument. Never surprises me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 05:01pm PT
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Have you read the thread, A.C.? Ricardo did.
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thinksforhimself
climber
fresno, ca
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Aug 30, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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I did not particiate. It wasn't me.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Aug 30, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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Those that support illegal immigration are the real bigots here. The present policy preferentially allows Hispanics, esp Mexicans to dominate immigration. All peoples of the Earth deserve a fair and equal chance to immigrate into the US. 100s of millions of very worthy people in China and India would love to come here, and to work for even less than Mexicans at jobs that even Mexicans wouldn't do.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 30, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
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here is what i read in that link:
At present, only about two dozen new cases of leprosy are found in US-born patients each year, a number that has not changed for decades, said Steve Pfeifer, head of statistics and epidemiology at the National Hansen’s Disease Program.
the rest is speculation and nothing more, "some researchers suggest...", please...
btw- as global population increases, outbreaks of all sorts of nasty things will also increase, and it won't be the poor peoples' fault that poor people are more likely to be victimized by these outbreaks, it will be the rich peoples' fault that they failed to act to protect the poor people from the outbreaks.
get over your white self, once and for all!
friggin racists pretending to be nationalists, even fooling their peers and themselves, it seriously makes any open minded observer of history sick to see sh#t like this happening in 'amerika'.
take a f*#king trip to the statue of liberty and read what it says there, then get your own DNA checked and see if you are a native american or not.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
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Matt, so I'm a racist now? Perfect way to handle a discussion. Make inflammatory accusations.
Do you think that gimme your sick, tired, and poor was literal? By that logic, this would be a country of diseased, lazy, bums. And it wasn't intended to permit illegal immigration, it was meant for controlled, health screened immigration. Remember Ellis Island?
I point that your disavowing of leprosy is incorrect and all you can say is we don't have enough leprosy yet? How many cases would you want before action was taken?
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 30, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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Do you think that gimme your sick, tired, and poor was literal?
yes
do you also want to ask me if i think most americans are fat and lazy, arrogant, increasingly absent of our founding fathers' work ethic, and in general affraid that their precious country is becoming less and less caucasian?
do you also want to ask me if i think the last point is what really drives the complaining about illegal immigration?
and does that last question of mine serve to answer your previous question, the one about what i really think of you, and your attitudes?
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 30, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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There are lots of diseases that you can't immunize against - should we isolate all US nationals returning from areas where such diseases are present? And what about US citizens resident within the country, who are infected or exposed? If you're really worried about the spread of disease, you'd have to advocate locking them up and treating them too, and not just foreigners.
Nobody traveling to the Southwest would be allowed back into New York, just incase they had a hantavirus infection..... anyone within 10 miles of Bellvue Mens Shelter in NYC would be declared a health emergency......
OK, I'm exaggerating here, but I'd like to see some kind of serious cost-benefit analysis before we start locking up them dangerous foreigners......remember, I am one!
Foreign graduate student, used to work with drug-resistant pathogenic bacteria, comes from a country whose name starts with an "I"........maybe thats why I get special screening every time I try to get on a plane!
Irish
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Xela
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 07:32pm PT
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Nefarius wrote:
"Ummm.... well, for one, you have to get vaccinated before going to areas known to have a high concentration of something. For instance, before going to Thailand, I had to have all kinds of vaccinations. The critical one being TB. TB is rampant in Southeast Asia."
Vaccinations are for your protection, they generally do nothing if you are already infected.
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immanti
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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It's a pretty good poem, imo, that was chosen as the winner after a public contest in 1883. Here's the whole thing:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
This one is also interesting:
"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Many circumstances hath, and will arise, which are not local, but universal, and through which the principles of all Lovers of Mankind are affected, and in the Event of which, their Affections are interested. The laying a Country desolate with Fire and Sword, declaring War against the natural rights of all Mankind, and extirparting the Defenders thereof from the Face of the Earth, is the Concern of every Man to whom Nature hath given the Power of feeling; of which Class, regardless of Party Censure, is the
AUTHOR
...
O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is over-run with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the globe. Asia, and Africa, have long expelled her. – Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! Receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind."
From “Common Sense”
By Thomas Paine
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Aug 30, 2007 - 10:57pm PT
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Well, let's see. If I think about epidemics harming this country, and epidemics harming people around the world, I think of a couple of things.
1. Obesity - kills more people than any communicable disease in the US. Costs are far higher. Guess we should ban fat people. Or maybe any company that makes unhealthy food.
2. Tobacco - US tobacco companies have much better sales abroad than in the US these days. If any one is exporting death, it's us.
And calling slaughter of native americans "inadvertent" is pretty offensive. Are you going to deny that tens of thousands were killed or forced to relocate off their lands so your ancestors and mine could take the land? Perhaps you'd like to deny the Holocaust as well? Just a few Jews that were inadvertently killed?
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 30, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger...... Get over it.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 31, 2007 - 01:01am PT
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bluering ..
you are a bigot ..
.. what makes you think that having mexican trucks coming through the border will bring more disease into the U.S.?
.. assuming that all illegal immigrants bring disease is also bigotry ..
.. consider that there is no way to stop illegal immigration, and lots of ways to help decrease it, such as attacking the reasons why these people want to come to the U.S. (better jobs, and a chance at a better life) ..
.. most of the U.S. population has bought the story from politicians that illegal immigrants are a source of many of our problems .. -- too bad .. its an easy way to pass the buck, and not take responsibilty for the state of the union.
bluering .. if there is something about your way of life that you dont like, and are bitter over .. you have nobody other than yourself to blame .. get some help so that you can have a better life and be less hateful towards other people..
.. i know that this is america, and everyone is free to have their opinion .. -- but its just damm sad to see soo many folks be so close minded. -- what a waste of freedom.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2007 - 11:56am PT
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".. assuming that all illegal immigrants bring disease is also bigotry .. "
For starters I never said that. I said that illegal immigration bypasses our controlled system of immigration that screens for certain communicable diseases.
And yes, there are many reasons why illegal immigration is a very bad idea and damaging in many ways. There's only one benefit to it, cheap labor for greedy employers.
How can I be a bigot if I support ANYBODY coming here legally? Maybe you're the bigot who only sees things in terms of race, and not in the actions of a person.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Aug 31, 2007 - 01:28pm PT
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Bluering: For the record, I don't think you're a bigot. Just an alarmist.
As for my work, in most cases I defend legal immigrants in removal proceedings, and help people immigrate legally. I have a few cases involving undocumented (illegal) immigrants, but they almost never have any relief under the law, and they are deported. It usually doesn't break my heart to see them go except when they have no criminal record, have been here for 10 or 20 years paying taxes, and have a spouse and kids. I'd like to see Congress give back a little more discretion to the judges in cases like those.
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 31, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
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it's not a requirement of anyone's bigotry to be aware that one is biased in any way
if someone didn't think they were a very attractive person, but most everyone else thought they were attractive, which would be more relevant?
all immigration is not equal or comparable, and all immigrants do not have an equal opportunity to travel to the US, because some immigrants would have to cross oceans or other obstacles. there is a significant difference in terms of maintaining contact and involvement with a family back home or abroad, and the valuable support network that both the immigrant and the family can play for each other. an immigrant who does somehow cross a major geographical obstacle more frequently cuts all family ties and therefore lacks that support network, so the idea that illegal immigrants are somehow screwing legal immigrants is largely a construction of the right wing and a fabrication that attempts to put a 'fair and balanced' flavor on their disinterest in having more minorities in this country. you simply cannot compare a mexian or central american who comes here to pick crops or work construction with an asian who comes on a tech worker visa or anyone here to study in a university, and their relative #'s do not impact one another from a policy standpoint (except in the mind of someone who is distressed by all the non-white skin in their once comfortable all american town!)
if you really think you can stand there and contend that what you want is less hispanics and more africans or laotians, then you deserve nothing but dissmissive laughter and quiet contempt from the rest of us.
the simple fact is that you listen to these 'talking points' and involuntarily regurgitate them, without really considering the realities of peoples lives.
if you want less abortions, making them illegal will not get you there, but making it easier for people not to pregnant when they do not have the emotional or financial capacity to be a parent, that will give your fewer abortions.
if you want less illegal immigration, building walls or advocating for the hating of brown people will not get you there, but reaching out and helping the countries that people come here from to broadly improve their economies and their overall standards of living will.
why do they never talk about that on fauxnews?
too busy spreading the oh-so-valid fear of a massive leprosy outbreak, perhaps...
edit- why don't so-called conservatives want "the free market" to determine the level of immigration? it's good enough for health care, good enough for environmemtal standards, good enough for potentially predatory or at least manipulative morgatge lending practices, good enough for mine safety standards, good enough for CAFE standards, good enough for our childrens' education, but not good enough for the one thing that is so clearly a function of economic opportunity?
...but i'm sure that's not because they have a distaste for brown people, what do you think they are, racist? that's offensive and ridiculous! how dare you say that!
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 31, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
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Ricardo from SFO >>>".. assuming that all illegal immigrants bring disease is also bigotry .. "
Huh ?
Assuming that people that have limited or no access to heathcare and plenty of access to disease
might harbor more communicable illness than the current U.S. population is bigotry ?
WTF !?
Get down from your PCorrect high-ground/horse, you've dug a convincing hole of platitudes to wallow in.
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Durabone
climber
Santa Cruz Mountains
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Aug 31, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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Nice patter.
I'm recalling a conversation that I had with a dentist in the Bay Area
about how homelessness was bringing back mouth diseases that
passed out of existence in WW1.
Ironic that the same economic might that has spawned so much
homelessness also brings disease in from other, less vaccinated
countries.
SYSTEMIC.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 31, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Xela wrote:
Vaccinations are for your protection, they generally do nothing if you are already infected."
--Read the post, man! My post was in response to the statement "I think that once you start to designate people from specific geographical areas as high-risk (absent an active disease outbreak in that area), you're opening a whole can of worms. What do you do about US nationals traveling to such areas for instance? Quarentine them upon their return?"
Your post just reinforces what I said, really. We get vaccinated when we travel to high-risk geographical areas for our protection (as I said). Duh! So we don't get quarantined, etc. as was suggested in the post prior to mine.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jun 11, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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Where can I get tags to hunt illegals?
Seriously.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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I'm bumping this again.
It sickens me (and others) that we don't have quality control over food coming into this country. I suppose if we can't control people coming in at will, how could we expect food quality.
Some poor dude was recovering from cancer and all it took was a celebration at an infected restaurant to kill this survivor...fu-king pisses me off.
http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=8460041
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Aug 22, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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RE: Salmonella poisoning is the Mexicans fault
Let's see; last year salmonella was found in California spinach and Peter Pan peanut butter. In March 2007, 150 people were diagnosed with salmonella poisoning after eating at a governor's reception in Krasnoyarsk, Russia. The year before a Cadbury chocolate plant in the UK was spreading the bug. In 2005, 16% of U.S. chickens were found to be contaminated.
Prejudice (\ˈpre-jə-dəs\) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
And what does produce from Mexico have to do with illegal immigration?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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It has to do with an epidemic of tainted produce, primarily from Mexico. Chile and some other SA countries have a better track record.
Edit: I didn't mean that all worldwide salmonella is resulting from Mexico, just the North American produce. They use tainted water to irrigate their crops, man!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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RE:
" It has to do with an epidemic of tainted produce, primarily from Mexico."
this may have more to do with the (U.S. based)entities
that import/distribute, than the source.
Funny about immigration.
When Stalin cut slack to a bunch of Russian Jewish people
many emigrated to the U.S. and went to work in the textile
industry. My Grandfather, a sewing machine mechanic naturalized in Kentucky, was one of them.
Immediately they (the Jews) were blamed for driving down
the wages/working standards - and taking jobs from "Americans."
Nothing about the entities doing the hiring, though :)
Sound familiar?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
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Snooty society 'lady': "My ancestors came over on the Mayflower."
Hardworking recent immigrant: "Mine came over once they'd tightened up the immigration laws."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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Come on Blue, we are all about deregulation. Remember our hero, Reagun. Free economy bro. Screw regulations. Screw enforcement. If I want to sh#t on my arugula field so it grows faster and then sell that arugula to stupid americans who don't wash their produce, then I should be allowed to.
Or sumptin like that.
You get what you vote for. Lower taxes mean the government can do less, such as inspect and enforce safety standards.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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dig this, here's where my other grandfather, Eagle
ended up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucyrus,_North_Dakota
No hassles there - just a bunch of stoic Norskies
clutching to an existence in the muddle of the Dakota
wastelands.
How 'bout the population figures for Bucyrus?
pretty funny.
Oh, BTW - Eagle was a blacksmith.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:03pm PT
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The best part of the immigration debate is that the anti-immigration arguments are literally all as old as humans.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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now, here's something a bit ironic,
and on-topic:
This is what killed Eagle's wife:
http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/
So, my dad was raised by an aunt.
Also, it may have been the same pandemic
that killed off my other grandfather's entire
first family.
Yep.
His name was Henry. He then bailed from the
south and moved to Omaha Nebraska, met
his second wife and had seven kids.
Henry was no quitter :)
for sure.
alright, onward with the raging debate, I guess...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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The best part of the immigration debate is that we're almost all immigrants. All of us, if you want to go back far enough to include the first peoples when they arrived, or got off the back of the turtle, or whatever happened. Though they didn't displace any other humans.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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Pate, it's funny you bring that up. I was watching 'gangland' today and a lot of "ethnic" gangs just kill people indescriminately, with no remorse.
Actually, the Aryan Brotherhood seemed to have the best ethics of all. Don't kill innocent people.
I know y'all will call me a Nazi or skinhead or whatever, but watch the difference between all these sacs of crap!
Mara Salvatrucha, MS-13, is the worst.
It makes me want to start my own gang to explicitly hunt down people like MS-13, they are very dangerous and very crude!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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MS-13 is nasty, but they are largely a criminal gang interested in making profits.
The Aryan Brotherhood, on the other hand, exists pretty much solely to enforce a racist and homophobic agenda. I don't think I would ever use the word ethical to describe anything that group does. And I don't know the details to say whether or not they really try to avoid killing innoccents, but I'm fairly sure they have no issues with beating the crap out of people they disagree with.
As for food-based poisoning, it seems the two biggest epidemics I can think of recently both originated here. The peanut problem, and the e. coli problem on lettuce from the Salina Valley.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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steve, you're right, the 'AB' as they call themselves, is racist by definition. They are all about white supremecy. The code I was talking about was from their own words from prison. Apparently, when they started killing peoples' innocent family members for lack of targets, some members broke off because they resented the killings of family innocents.
Does this make them more benevolent? Not really.
Just makes them less of a target in the eyes of my new gang.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
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Here we go again. Uncontrolled immigration from Mexico has given us a new bug that is potentially deadly. A combo of swine/avian/human influenza that has roots in Mexico.
Maybe we should regulate our southern border better and test people for communicable disease....LIKE WE USED TO!!!
Oh, I had to cancel my Valley trip this weekend because my wife has come down with a funky flu that has her unable to drive.
It could be normal flu or not.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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Blue -
(Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an epidemiologist to realize.....)
yeah?
(Now, Bush the fool... (you take your lords name in vain? LOL)
and all the one-worlders in Congress are going to allow South American trucks to travel into our country with realtive ease. The first leagl challenge to this North American Union is coming from, of all places, a large union.)
Hold it... This can't possibly be a good thing.. I mean after all... Aren't all Unions bad for our society, economy, landscape, and business? When was the last time anything good came from a Union? Other than the 8 hour day (I as a business man think this needs to go away and we need to force people to work longer hours at a reduced pay so that I can make my shareholders happy....)
(With the vast majority of Americans opposed to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, when are our leaders going to do something about it? Only a handful of leaders ever speak publicly about the problems associated with illegal immigration, which are countless. Unfortunately, when they do speak up about it, they're called racist xenophobes...)
They call them that because usually when they mention the illegal immigrantion problems they are wearing their hoods with the pointy tops!!! Real-time thinking caps is what I call them.
Blue - I could have sworn you were completely anti-union?
But in this case I guess you are willing to side with the union, for once?
Nice to see you still have an ounce of credibility.. but don't push it. your still on thin ice!
LOL
Cheers
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Infecting your wife with flu? Those filthy "ethnics" - is there no end to their evil and mischief?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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I'm strictly anti-SA trucks int this country.
Again I disagree with BushCo on this. F*#k Mexican trucks here!
Oh wait, I'm prolly a racist now....darn.
(What's up with all your ()() parenthesis?) Wow, that's cool, you can make a nutsack with back to back parenthesis...()I()
EDIT: Bill, it came from day-care no doubt. Whether it's SWine isn't known yet.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Guys guys let's pretend that we can stop people from coming to this country and then when they do come deny them healthcare and then blame them for all our diseases.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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Your wife is in day-care? Well I'm sorry she's not feeling well. I had a rash last month - I'm sure I got it from one of those filthy little brown buggers at work.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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Bill, please, the bug is proven to be Mexico. How do you think it got here? I'm not blaming 'brown people', I'm blaming our gov't for not controlling our borders from testing people for sh#t before they get here.
My son goes to day care with other children of ALL ethnicities, and brings home stuff to us. This one my wife has is unusually bad.
Let's leave the racism and bigotry out of this. IT IS A FACT THAT UNCLEAN PRACTICES FROM SA GIVE US MANY BUGS. Especially with NAFTA, CAFTA.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Why the antagonism?
What Bluering says has a degree of truth to it. I realize this is going to be read wrong by some, but it is a reality that epidemics spread with the aid of international travel. This is not exactly the fault of illegal immigrants however; legal travelers can spread disease quickly and efficiently (ala "The 12 Monkeys"). The difference is that we are able to enact some degree of screening and control on the legal travelers.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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The bay area is full of Irish illegal immigrants as well. Are you worried about catching diseases from them too?
Actually, the Irish are all pretty healthy: socialized medicine.
I work in construction, so about half the people I work with are Irish, and the other half Mexican. My Irish friends laugh about it - all the bitching about illegal immigration, but no one cares about them. Wonder why.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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"Why the antagonism?
What Bluering says has a degree of truth to it. I realize this is going to be read wrong by some, "
Absolutely. And a reasonable poster could start a reasonable discussion about it. Unfortunately, bluering is not that poster and this is not that discussion.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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Actually, A/H1N1 was first found in Wisconsin in 2005 (not Mexico)....
http://www.cdc.gov/EID/content/14/9/1470.htm
However, if it spreads it could be a good time to buy stocks in TamiFlu vaccine...
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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"Actually, A/H1N1 was first found in Wisconsin in 2005 (not Mexico)...."
Well, well, well, look who's kickin' it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Absolutely. And a reasonable poster could start a reasonable discussion about it. Unfortunately, bluering is not that poster and this is not that discussion.
F*#k you, what is the source of the tuberculosis epidemic in the Bay Area? Chinese immigrants?
You want to paint me as a bigot, whatever, I'm trying to say that we need to control disease flow into this country from 2nd and 3rd world countries that do not control disease and bugs.
Idiot! Keep calling me bigot, whatever...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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"F*#k you, what is the source of the tuberculosis epidemic in the Bay Area? Chinese immigrants?
You want to paint me as a bigot,"
You're doing a good job of painting yourself. You don't need any help.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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illegal immigration has a huge host of issues and it should be addressed. Unfortunately the morality managers in this country have dictated that any mention of immigration reform is to be treated as racist dictum. Nevermind the drugs, human slavery, coyotes, etc, etc, etc,
I could be wrong but I think the actual origin of swine flu is China. Also unfortunate that A(H1N1) is now becomming resistant to oseltamivir. :o( especially sux for old people.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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"illegal immigration has a huge host of issues and it should be addressed."
Most of the border crossings between the U.S. and Mexico are LEGAL with a lot of traffic going both ways. If a pandemic happens in either country its going to cross the border into the other country, even if all illegal immigration was stopped.
Did you have to spend a couple of weeks in quarantine before reentering the U.S. after spending an evening in TJ?
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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From the CDC...The classical swine flu virus (an influenza type A H1N1 virus) was first isolated from a pig in 1930.
Frickin' pigs! Stop pig immigration now! Cut off the demand for bacon! We need a pig Czar! Or is it Pixar? Whatever. Wait...Sick the wolves on 'em! yeah!
BTW I'm gettin' sick just reading this thread. Some of you guys are wingnuts.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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And it's true that a legal traveler either by automobile, boat or airline can spread a disease but shouldn't we at least try to control the variables that we can?
Would you consider enhanced screening of people from certain countries "racial profiling"??
After spending an "evening" in TJ they aught to give you radiation treatment.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Fine, ignore the problem of immigrants bringing disease.
We used to be better at this, fools. Of course, that was when we were 'stupider' and racist.
EDIT: Jbar makes a good point that we know certain areas are especially suscepatble to communicable disease, should we ignore that because of skin color? For the sake of now appearing to be racially insensitive?
Idiots! This is common sense.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 24, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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"Significant rates of TB, including multidrug resistant TB, were identified among Hmong refugees from Thailand resettled or awaiting emigration [23,24]. As a result, the CDC implemented enhanced screening for all immigrants and refugees entering the U.S., beginning with high-priority countries as determined by TB prevalence and immigration patterns."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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I said Chinese when I should of said Eastern Asian, excuse me, jbar.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 25, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Once you go Asian, youe never go Caucasin.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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White people
Smallpox
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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nice.
Conquistadors
small pox
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 25, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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Bluering sperged:
"F*#k you, what is the source of the tuberculosis epidemic in the Bay Area? Chinese immigrants?
You want to paint me as a bigot, whatever, I'm trying to say that we need to control disease flow into this country from 2nd and 3rd world countries that do not control disease and bugs.
Idiot! Keep calling me bigot, whatever...
"
I never called you a bigot. You started this with an OP that made generalizations, accusations and a bunch of defensive garbage about being called a racist xenophobe. You basically laid down the tracks for exactly what you got. If you had wanted to have an honest discussion about disease and immigration you would have started a thread as such, but you wanted to have this thread instead and here you are.
Perhaps if you tried talking about facts and information as facts and information instead of framing them as blame and accusation you might find people invited to have an actual discussion. Instead you say things like "F*#k you, what is the source of the tuberculosis epidemic in the Bay Area? Chinese immigrants?" and then are shocked and amazed when people respond defensively.
You know we have a fair bit of TB around Flagstaff but there aren't many (any?) Chinese immigrants. In fact the highest instances are among the most non-immigrant population of them all: Native Americans.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Apr 25, 2009 - 03:11am PT
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By the sounds of it, I bet all of you tape up AND wear knee pads. HaHa.
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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Apr 25, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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Illegal immigration is supported by the money and those who love it more than people. And they don't give a rats ass who gets sick in the process. Also is seems ok to have a sub culture we can look down on and use. If we can't pay a living wage and treat folks in a humane way, don't bring them here. If an orange cost 2 dollars to grow and PICK, then that's the true price of an orange.
I live, to my regret, a nice lifestyle, standing on the backs of the less fortunate. I know that global equality is not going to happen any time soon but we can make a start.
If it seems that we must have labor, then let's pay what it truly costs. Then the labor can afford healthcare, car insurance and taxes.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Apr 25, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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we slaughtered them fair and square. they could have banded together, but didnt, and lost because of it.
some big changes are coming.
nationalization
pandemic on the horizon
global blackout next?
martial law?
mark of the beast (joking)?
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 25, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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You do know its not possible to drive to the US from South America, right? The Darien Gap in Panama is a really effective natural barrier.
I drove to Panama and back in my Tacoma, and no plague followed. Of course, my truck and every other vehicle was sprayed down heavily with disinfectants at every border aside from the US border. America - wake up and follow El Salvador's lead!
I flew back into the US obviously suffering from Malaria once. No plague followed. I supposed I neglected to bring any Anopholes mosquitos with me.
I suppose infectious disease is serious business, but forgive me if i can't get very worked up about 50 out of 30,000,000 people dieing in Mexico City, or 16 out of 300,000,000 people in the US. Its more profitable to be terrified of rabid jackrabbits or bulldozer rampages.
Isn't it exhausting to be so afraid of everything all the time? I'm sitting in the middle of the jungle in west Africa right now, and i'm not worrying about disease nearly as much as you are and my risk factor has to be millions of times higher.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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On average 35,000 die in the US of flu. In bad years almost twice that. This strain is particularly worrying because it combines a human, avian, and swine components. It is not to be taken lightly. Although figures vary widely the 1918 epidemic killed more people than WW I and II if I'm not mistaken.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 27, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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hahah granite that was exactly the kind of thing I was talking about (sarcastically) in a previous post. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:59am PT
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lesson in point, American aboriginal people, pre- and post-Columbian...
perhaps they should have been a bit more picky about letting the Europeans in...
"All men were made brothers. The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. Whenever the white man treats the Indian as they treat each other, then we shall have wars no more. We shall be all alike, brothers of one father and mother, with one sky above us... Then the Great Spirit Chief who rules above will smile upon this land and send rain to wash out the bloody spots made by brothers' hands upon the face of the earth. For this time the Indian race is waiting and praying. I hope no more groans of wounded men and women will ever go to the ear of the Great Spirit Chief above, and that all people may be one people."
Chief Joseph
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:00am PT
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stoked we booked our 10 year anni in cabo! Awesome!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Ed, thanks for that.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Apr 27, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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Bluering says: "Here we go again. Uncontrolled immigration from Mexico has given us a new bug that is potentially deadly. A combo of swine/avian/human influenza that has roots in Mexico."
Is there any evidence that the recent cases of swine flu were brought here by "uncontrolled immigration"? It appears from the warnings on the CDC website that it is traceable to people flying here from affected areas. Very few illegal immigrants buy plane tickets because they have to go through customs inspection at the airport.
If you're talking about legal immigrants and other travelers, how do you test every U.S. citizen, lawful permanent resident, visitor and other non-immigrant visa holder who gets on a plane to the U.S.?
(Legal immigrants do have to pass a medical exam before they get their immigrant or non-immigrant visa, but once they have the card they can come and go without an exam.)
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Apr 27, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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I think it's more like college "Spring Breakers" who will be the major carriers of the bug who went down to Cancun and swapped copious amount of body fluids with each other and maybe with a few natives thrown into the mix..
Edit: I think we should quarentine ALL the high school and college spring breakers for a minimum of 10 days after they return to the US.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jDrS0zyM9U2lh372d7r1FMjLVHrAD97QURG81
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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pretty funny old-school commercial.
Did he pass away?
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Lets not forget its -ILLEGAL-
millions of people breaking the law..-is still breaking the law.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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Breaking the Law?
There I was completely wasting, out of work and down
all inside it's so frustrating as I drift from town to town
feel as though nobody cares if I live or die
so I might as well begin to put some action in my life
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
So much for the golden future, I can't even start
I've had every promise broken, there's anger in my heart
you don't know what it's like, you don't have a clue
if you did you'd find yourselves doing the same thing too
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
You don't know what it's like!!
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
Breaking the law, breaking the law
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Is that ^^^^^^ a cross-post from the homophobia thread?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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As I was posting it, I thought it could fit well over there.
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