Old routes disappearing into obscurity

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k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 10, 2007 - 03:37pm PT

So many great looking lines, so many fading into obscurity due to old bolts.

I love climbing on the Apron, be it at Glacier Point, Middle Cathedral, or the Arches. But so often I get to the base, have a look at the "pro," and say "Yikes!"

The "1/4 Inch Bolts Failing" thread shines a spotlight on the problem.

Cruise across the base of the North Apron of Middle Cathedral and you'll see what we face. Beautiful routes, protected by widely spaced bolts that are decades old. What do you do?

I'd be great to be a Good Sam and take the day(s) needed to fix up an old classic. But on a run-out face, how exactly do you do that? Get good enough to climb to the anchors, then rap down so you can do a proper job of rebolting? Or do you drill a good bolt next to the old bad one, then patch the old?

Maybe we should organize Clean Up days where we gather as a group and work to restore some of our older classics. Imagine what a group of 10 folks could do in a day.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 10, 2007 - 03:44pm PT

Kelly,

Roger Brown is doing it now. You've got the slab skills; he's got the non stop bolting arms - that a combo! He's in Camp 4 now, looking for help in rebolting routes on the Royal Arches apron.

I think the best method is to lead through on the old pro, replace one of the belay bolts, and then fix the rope and replace the bolts on the pitch you just led. Also a fixed rope to the top of the highest route can probably be used to rappel diagonally to access other routes.

I will try to get up there on Wednesday night.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=400384&msg=407237#msg407237

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 03:50pm PT

Clint, this sounds about right. We slowly replenish the routes that have a high profile. But there are so many worthy routes, yet so few willing to do some work.

Also, wouldn't it be cool if someone made available some high-quality tuning forks. I know I'd buy one...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 10, 2007 - 04:00pm PT

I hate to point this out (maybe somebody already has) but this is in part the legacy of a ground up ethic that emphasizes performance over product.

Miwok

climber

Jul 10, 2007 - 04:36pm PT

but this is in part the legacy of a ground up ethic that emphasizes performance over product.

Well said.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jul 10, 2007 - 04:41pm PT

The most extreme routes ain't for every body.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Jul 10, 2007 - 04:43pm PT

Tmoses might be cajoled into making you some Tuning forks for a nominal fee.

Alternatively, you can borrow mine K. I'm in Mtn View and SJ areas if you are over this way.

jack herer

climber

veneta, or

Jul 10, 2007 - 04:46pm PT

greg at asca sells tuning forks http://www.safeclimbing.org

Greg Barnes

climber

Jul 10, 2007 - 05:02pm PT

We sell tuning forks for $10 (includes shipping). They are made out of #3 Lost Arrows and are for removing 1/4" bolts only - they are NOT large enough for 5/16" buttonheads.

However, we frequently lag behind in producing them, so delays are common - often over 1 month.

ASCA
PO Box 1814
Bishop, CA 93515

Greg Barnes

climber

Jul 10, 2007 - 05:13pm PT

Oh yeah - k-man asked:

"Cruise across the base of the North Apron of Middle Cathedral and you'll see what we face. Beautiful routes, protected by widely spaced bolts that are decades old. What do you do?"

Come up to Tuolumne, where TONS of old bold routes are sporting nice new bolts.

It's a pain finding partners for the GPA, Cathedral, Royal Arches, etc where you have to replace ground-up. Hard enough digging up partners for hand-drilled new routes...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 10, 2007 - 05:42pm PT

"Everybody wants to go to the party.
Nobody wants to stay and clean up."

DeNiro in Ronin

LongAgo

Trad climber

Jul 10, 2007 - 06:07pm PT

Many thanks to those preserving good old routes protected by aging bolts, and respecting the original line by replacing only what was there in the first place.

Indeed, there are many fine routes on the Middle apron (some pretty run out) which provide shady challenges on hot summer days. How great if the old bolts there could be redone someday.

Another candidate for redoing: Punch Bowl on Glacier Point Apron, apparently with smashed or missing bolts from rockfall. I'm a bit biased on that one as it was a first ascent way back when ...

Tom Higgins
LongAgo

Miwok

climber

Jul 10, 2007 - 06:07pm PT

"I never walk into a place I don't know how to walk out of".

Another De Niro Quote from Ronin applicable to this thread.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 06:18pm PT

... but [widely spaced bolts] is in part the legacy of a ground up ethic that emphasizes performance over product.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I'm convinced of this. Bolting face routes was initially done in stance, mostly because of the strict Traditional ethic from which technical climbing began. With in-stance drilling, you had to take your stances where you could find them, which often meant long run-outs on the harder routes.

Certainly some climbers put up routes that pushed the envelope of protection, but I don't believe that this was the emphasis. I think instead that the emphasis was on putting up routes, and the more difficult they were, the better the experience.

So I don't believe that performance trumped product. In most cases, the product was just as important (people usually like to see others attempt the routes they put up). With traditional routes, the style of the FA is often seen as an important part of the product. Too many bolts, especially those placed from aid, diminish the quality of a route.

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Jul 10, 2007 - 07:00pm PT

Kelly, you know I'm always down to dedicate some time to working on that sort of stuff.

Clint - I agree with you that the best way to replace the routes would be to lead through to the anchors and then work from the top down so as to get the best replacement in the same bolt location. However, I remember looking at those routes on Middle Cathedral, and damn... that could be a horrifying task, even on things that are within one's climbing ability, some of those bolts look like they are about ready to jump off the rock.
I don't disagree with you at all, just saying.. I'd love to help out with anything like that though.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 10, 2007 - 07:33pm PT

SNP;
"So why are you here?"
"You know the answer to that."

(and Natasha packed a compact IMI 9mm, old style frame mounted safety. GRRRR)

k-man,
my friend, you misread me.
Ground up meant people used quarter inchers. As a result the product was "poor" in terms of shelf life. Runouts are another issue entirely. I'm not against them per se. Routes of mine include Full Metal Jockstrap and the N ridge of Notch Dome (with decking potential on the SECOND pitch!!)

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 10, 2007 - 08:05pm PT

hoipolloi,

It's true that some bolts may be too scary to lead on, depending on the likelihood/length of falls. Screamers may help somewhat. An ultra skinny leader might also be handy. In a few rare cases where the old bolt has broken off, one might have to drill on lead. I am not a very good slab climber, so I favor the ultralong cheater stick idea!

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 08:07pm PT

Full Metal Jockstrap...what a hoot!

OK, clear on the "product" placement.

What I've heard of folks doing nowadays is putting in really small lead bolts, then coming back and beefing 'em up.

Those who drill on lead, my heros.

My Name Is Drew

Big Wall climber

Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.

Jul 10, 2007 - 09:19pm PT

There is or was at the time a seldom done route at the east end of The Arches near the base (obviously) of Washington Column; I think the first pitch went free and the second began the aiding following a small dihedral arching up and left.
At the time (mid-80's) it was fairly dirty; evidence of it's not being particularly popular.
Anyone know the routes name?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 10, 2007 - 09:35pm PT

K-man
Full Metal Jockstrap is above another route in Snow Canyon with a dangerous LARGE loose flake that has to be climbed over.
The name of that route;
A Little Nightmare Music

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 18, 2007 - 06:32pm PT

Tom mentioned the Punch Bowl:

"Another candidate for redoing: Punch Bowl on Glacier Point Apron, apparently with smashed or missing bolts from rockfall. I'm a bit biased on that one as it was a first ascent way back when ..."

I enjoyed climbing the Punch Bowl a couple of times in the late 80s.

Here is a photo from 2004:

The route is directly in the path of the 1999 rockfall which then rolled east down the talus slope and killed Peter Terbush belaying on Apron Jam:

http://www.srcfc.org/terbush.asp

The route looks relatively cleaned by supsequent winter rains, but the release area of the rockfall is still directly above the route (with more flakes waiting to release, according to helicopter observation), and there may be rockfall debris on Glacier Point Terrace above the route which slides off randomly as well. So going up there could be a somewhat higher risk than other spots on Yosemite for awhile. Climbs further left, like left of Mr. Natural and possibly including Mr. Natural, are probably OK.

[Edit 7/26 to add photo of original rockfall from USGS:]

http://landslides.usgs.gov/recent/archives/1999yosemite.php

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Jul 18, 2007 - 06:53pm PT

I'm back climbing at the Apron but you wouldn't catch me near the Punch Bowl. IF ANY route is death over there, that's the one.

A shame though, I bailed on the Punch Bowl long before the rockfall because other rockfall had already taken out critical bolts.

Mr. Natural is safer but does show signs of getting substantial rockfall since the big slide.

Peace

Karl

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jul 18, 2007 - 06:54pm PT

"Clint, this sounds about right. We slowly replenish the routes that have a high profile."

What do you consider a high profile? Although there are many bad bolts remaining, a number of routes on the Arches and Middle have seen bolt replacement (substantial or complete), and none of them seem very high profile or get done much even with new bolts.

Was there a specific route that you thought would be non-obscure if the bolts were updated? Maybe it's already on someone's fix up list, and they could get in touch w/ you.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 18, 2007 - 07:05pm PT

I agree with Melissa - the highest profile routes were mostly rebolted first (Nose and other El Cap routes where you are hauling on the anchors!). Now routes are being rebolted pretty much independent of popularity. (Except for some hard/runout routes which are hard to access except by leading them).

LongAgo

Trad climber

Jul 18, 2007 - 07:17pm PT

Thanks to Clint for photo and Karl for warning about the area around Punch Bowl. Humbling to have a first ascent wiped out. Good reminder about how temporal all is, even something made on stone. And how strange if Punch came back someday, part new, part old (shall it be Punch Again?), which also might speak volumes ...

Tom Higgins
LongAgo

Gary

climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Jul 18, 2007 - 08:02pm PT

Ball joint separators do a good job popping 1/4"ers. Readily available and heavy duty. We've been using them with great success out at the Pass.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Jul 18, 2007 - 09:51pm PT

Quicksilver!

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Jul 19, 2007 - 12:18am PT

Thanks for the beta, Kevin - that will be very helpful. We should be able to do SB as well; that one is very easy to get on top of. (Then you and Steve can focus on p1 if you want).

henny

Social climber

The Past

Jul 19, 2007 - 01:16am PT

FYI: Walk of Life has been repeated at least once.

henny

Social climber

The Past

Jul 19, 2007 - 12:11pm PT

Kevin -

Hi.

Yeah, it's been awhile since the Rainbow days hasn't it? Fun times (out of curiosity, do you remember a problem we did called "Speed of Lead", with Mike I believe - I always remember that one because of the crazyness with gunshots).

You're doing well I hope. Sounds like it. Good to hear. You guys should definitely fix up SB, give that thing back to the land of the living. Wish I could help with the Middle replacement - what a great place that is to climb. Has to be one of my favorite places in the Valley.

Yeah, I'm still quite active. My main focus right now is putting up new routes in the Whitney Portal. Good fun.

I did do Walk of Life. I remember it being a pretty good route, well worth doing (and a bit sporty, but then that's half the fun isn't it?). By all means someone should replace it.

Regards,

Darrell

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 12:11pm PT

Kevin, I've looked at that corner, Beautiful.

When I last did Quicksilver, the first face pitch sported new bolts, but the second did not. On Freewheelin', the ASCA site sez:

Freewheelin' Replaced all 8 bolts until pitch 4 2000 James Selvidge, Bernie Rivadeneyra

What's up with that? I count 7 lead bolts on the topo, but what about the belays? I guess you gotta go up there to find out...

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Nov 21, 2008 - 10:45pm PT

bump for an underappreciated climbing thread.

sibylle

Trad climber

On the road again!

Nov 22, 2008 - 10:07am PT

I saw the big rockfall at the Apron in about 1998. I was on YOSAR then, so we went on search that night after the rockfall, to see if people had been squished.

Walking near Curry Village resembled a moonscape - we had rock dust half to one-inch deep on the ground and falling from the leaves. We found one man who'd been squished by a tree.

The next morning , we searched more, again near Curry. they would not let us near the base of the Apron, as rocks were still coming down.

The wind blast from the force of the rockfall blew over hundreds of big trees, one to two feet in diameter. It looked like someone had played pick-up sticks near the river and thrown big redwoods around like hay.
That rockfall took out a climb hear the left edge of the Apron, I forget which one (but I had climbed it a few years earlier).
I haven't climbed on Glacier Point Apron since I observed the aftermath of that rockfall.
I don't know if the downed trees are still lying around or if they removed them. It may be worth observing the damage before someone goes up on the Apron.

rincon

Trad climber

SoCal

Nov 22, 2008 - 11:06am PT

Getting squished would suck.

pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Dec 11, 2008 - 06:51pm PT

K-MAN ~old route will only go away for a little while.

one day some kid who has the healthy diet of smoking pot and drinking beer will get the guts to climb them. (with a cool-mans style).