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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 24, 2007 - 03:14pm PT
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Everyone knows that climbing has always had an aspect of competition, even in the days before formal climbing contests. A recent exchange on this forum got me thinking of the spirited rivalries between climbers in different regions of the US. You don’t think of climbing as a team sport, but there used to be a spirited, team game among the major, old school climbing regions: the West Coast , the Pacific Northwest, the East Coast and the Rockies
Coloradan Jim Ericson’s snatching of the ultra- classic and patently obvious Insomnia Crack at Suicide was a blow to Tahquitz pride, and rankled my generation of Southern Californians even though we hadn’t yet started climbing when he did it. In retrospect, it was poetic payback for the poaching of the first ascent of the Diamond by Southern Californians Kamps and Rearick.
Henry Barber’s FA of the Fish Crack and solo of the Steck Salathe in the early 1970’s were victories for the East Coast on the Yosemite team’s home turf. Fish Crack still makes some people’s blood boil on this forum 30 years later. It may be a small consolation to realize that Hot Henry had a habit of grabbing prized climbs from locals all over the world, during his incredible run of first ascents during the 1970s.
It would be fun to hear examples of the glorious victories and ignominious defeats in regional rivalries, including those routes that are named to add salt to the wound. For example, I think it may have been Richard Harrison and/or Bachar who discovered a new, small crag around 1978 in Estes Park, that they called “California Classics.” Billy Westbay and the locals did not permit this affront. They immediately changed the name to “Colorado Classics” after the invaders went home.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 24, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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I'll bet Ament has plenty to say on this topic.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 24, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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Todd Skinner's adventure at Index on 'City Park' comes to mind. It's not so much an illustration of a 'grand regional rivalry' as much as it was a case of an outsider bagging a coveted FA.
Oh yeah edit: Skinner also rankled some folks climbing 'The Stigma' and renaming it. Anyone here involved in that brouhaha?
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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Wild Bill,
Not familiar with City Park. Do tell.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 24, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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Rick A, I'm sure you've heard the tale. A hard, very thin crack that had repelled locals (and everyone) for years. After Todd rehearsed it on toprope, and was ready to lead from the ground up, the locals smeared the inside of the crack with axle grease.
Todd, in true Skinner fashion, got a propane torch and spent hours burning out the grease. THEN he lead it from the ground up, placing gear. He WAS like a gunfighter, roaming around bagging killer lines.
GOOGLE ROCKS Edit: Here's an account from ClimbingWashington.com
http://www.climbingwashington.com/features/walkinthepark2.htm
The first pitch of City Park ranks among the thinnest, steepest, most elegant thin cracks in Washington granite. The crack—a seam really—splits a slightly overhanging granite shield. It is one of the hardest free pitches in Washington, definitely the hardest crack climb in the state. Small wonder, since it’s vertical or overhanging in its entirety, on a mostly smooth wall, and the best jam you’ll find in its 120-foot length will accept barely more than your first knuckle. Luckily, the crack eats wired stoppers eagerly, making it a very popular clean aid pitch.
Of course, like all great Index free climbs, City Park began as an aid route. There is some question about when it was climbed. Most sources list City Park as having been climbed in 1966, by Roger Johnson and Richard Mathies, who climbed four pitches to the top of the Lower Wall.
The first ascent party claims it named the route City Park to follow the Japanese Gardens motif. Regardless of when the first ascent was made, it is assured that the popularity of the first pitch as an aid climb was greatly increased by the pin scars, which allowed wired nuts to slot in all the way up the crack. The resulting damage from pin scars during the early 1970s, before clean climbing was wholly embraced, definitely made it possible for the crack to be free climbed. In 1986, Wyoming cowboy and notorious trickster Todd Skinner, after weeks of attempts, made a redpoint ascent of the pitch (all protection placed on lead during a continuous ascent from the ground with no falls) and established City Park’s first pitch as Washington’s hardest free climb. The story of Skinner’s ascent is nearly as classic as the route itself. Some doubt Skinner’s free ascent, and even discredit Hugh Herr’s free ascent because he didn’t have real feet. Truth be told by someone who was there, Skinner did free the pitch.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Frankly I don't believe I ever saw much of this. My misfortune I guess. It really does seem misplaced though as one can cut corners in climbing at least a thousand different ways, without even going so far as to wire a route on a top rope. I think gymnastics is the way to go if you like competition. Not quite so fuzzy.
Edit:
Come to think of it there was one corner I cut that I did not even know about till I had been climbing for years. I learned I had gotten criticism because I did not wear a pack while leading. (The area was used by many people to get into condition for their yearly trip to the Tetons.) Would have made no difference had I known. You climb the way you like to climb and as long as you don't affect the rock or the experiences of others - that's the end of it.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jun 24, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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there are (were) regional rivalries within regions - it goes on and on and - cool topic
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2007 - 04:26pm PT
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Jstan-
I think most of the regional competition, when I was active, was mainly friendly, with some notable and highly rancorous exceptions. Ken Wilson, editor of Mountain Magazine in the 70’s, used to stoke regional competition, especially in Britain, with sensational headlines featuring “raiders” from one part of Britain grabbing “plums” from other regions.
One example of this in the Gunks was Ron Kauk's trip back east to repeat a crack testpiece that I think Wunsch put up. Somebody help me here with the name. I think it's been discussed on Supertopo before.
Wild Bill-Thanks, had never heard of it.
Rick
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 24, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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Supercrack, aka (I think) Wunsch Upon a Climb?
Climbers from B.C. used to hang out with climbers from Washington. They visited Squamish, we visited Leavenworth, everyone got along. We sometimes camped and climbed together in Yosemite, too. I still keep in touch with some of them.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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RA
Steve did a lot of really nice problems wherever he was. You may be thinking of supercrack. I was belaying him when he did it. Did a very nice job of it if I say so myself. As did Ron I am sure.
Yeah Ken had the road he was travelling. He also came from a different region so everything is different of course. I climbed some with Roger Birch, also a Brit. Just a devastatingly dry humor that he applied to himself as well as to others. Wonderful to watch.
If you take Crew seriously in "The Black Cliff" there was a lot of rivalry in Wales. Crew may have been into that but somehow I doubt Joe was. I might add I think this is a great read. Rock and Ice's battle royal with the motorcycle giant is pure comedy. Imagine, Whillans having all he can do just to hang onto a guy's leg?
Another story that is funny. A worthy barges into the pub at Cloggy saying, "I hear Brown and Whillans are here. Anyone seen what they are doing?" Whereupon a voice from the back growls, "Ahm Brown. Ee's Whillans." I imagine what was really going on is even funnier. Whillans was a very spontaneous kinda guy and Joe knew Don was going to punch the guy out if Joe didn't do something. By that time Joe must have been very tired of being in the cold rain. He knew if Don got into a fight all the climbers would, for sure, be tossed out of the pub and would find themselves standing in the cold rain again. So if Joe wanted to enjoy a beer in a warm dry place, he knew he was going to have to do something. Ah, the trials of being a climber. You have been there enough so you can see it coming.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 24, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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After Wunch the next 4 leads of Supercrack over a three year period were all westerners. Kauk, Hudon/Jones, Steve Hong, and myself a few days later after many tries. When I did it Steve Wunch came out and gave it a few goes on top rope. At the time he had a seat on the NYSE. He wasn't fit enough to pull it entirely, but his technique through the crux was incredible. He stemmed with his long legs out to edges I did not even see in my periphery. Basically did a different climb with a lot more emphasis on the widely spaced face features.
After me was 18 year old Wolfgang Gullich, first trip to the states and he was new to yo-yo tactics, so he watched me intently. His partners had fifi hooks tied to their harnesses which we thought hilarious. He blew us away on the boulders, and I belayed him on Open Cockpit which he floated. I gave him the list of must do routes in the Valley, which he dispatched later in his trip. I was really bummed and embarrased by the treatment received by some visiting Euros by some Valley locals over the next decade, though I think Wolfgang was accepted cause he knew the well respected Rheinhard Karl. Ethical rivalries were always more intense than regional rivalries
In the 70's there were so few traveling climbers that any who did got a lot of attention especially if they sought out well known area testpieces. Back east sandbagging was kind of a time honored normal treatment for visitors. I had one great day hosted by ST's own Bob D'Antonio, then known as Bullet Bob- the Philadelphia Flyer. He was very friendly, but I had been warned and backed off the scary moves he sent me up on, then watched him fall off and tweak his foot. He did turn us onto the great local swimming however.
Peter
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2007 - 07:12pm PT
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Peter,
Thanks for the scorecard on Supercrack. Illustrates my point, exactly.
JStan-The Brits have all the great stories. You should get Jim Perrin’s book on Whillans, The Villain if you haven’t yet; its full of them.
Joe Brown may not have been into regional rivalries, but he was, and probably still is, competitive. I was fortunate to get to climb with him briefly 30 years ago this summer. Al Harris arranged a sea-level cliff traverse on Anglesey for the visiting Yanks, when I was in Wales with my mates in 1977. There were a bunch of us, including Al, T.I.M. Lewis, Joe, and Rob Muir. The traverse was along the base of a sea cliff for what seemed like a quarter mile or so, varying from inches to tens of feet above the water. There were different lines you could take horizontally, so the leader of the traverse varied, as people climbed around each other and took different lines. I noticed after a while that Brown was determined to be in the lead and would move quickly to reestablish himself in front if someone had the temerity to overtake the master. I can’t say I got to know Brown that day, but I thought this was a telling glimpse of a fierce competitor, behind a quiet demeanor.
Rick
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jun 24, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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Wow. Thirty years ago this month!
Yeah, there were certainly some horizontal high jinks on that Holyhead girdle which ended over by Wen Zawn. I recall, Rick, asking how long that traverse was and someone suggested it was about 5,000'.
Not quite sure it was a regional rivalry as such, but there were some fun competitions that were played on that briny limestone. Gib Lewis and Ricky were quite into chess then, and for much of that Summer they enjoyed playing "mental chess" wherein you each mentally imagined the chess board and called out moves in turn. Games could go on for days... That afternoon, while Gib was poised on some heinous crux over the frigid North Sea, Rick would causally call the next move. "Pawn to king's bishop seven" or summat. Rattled Gib on that one, it did.
And wasn't it Al Harris (RIP) who couldn't swim? As I recall TIM Lewis wore a wetsuit that day just in the event that Al fell into the drink. Someone needed to fish Al out, after all. (Imagine going sea girdling and not being able to swim!)
And wasn't it Joe Brown who got to lobbing big stones into the water near other members of the party, just to see if someone would take a dive! Maybe it was Al Harris, since that sounds more in keeping with his spirit.
But in spite of all the high-jinks, I don't believe anyone in our huge party actually fell in, though that was the Game. TIM Lewis did paddle along under Al in a section or two by way of a spot, but that was intentional.
I do remember how SMOOTHLY Joe approached his climbing. An old-school floater who was technically methodical...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 24, 2007 - 08:04pm PT
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Rick, I hope your example of the Diamond wasn't prompted by my mention of it on the "What I learned today" thread because I don't see it as a case of poaching.
Rather, its a case of being in the right place to take advantage of a whimsical and capricious park service policy.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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Rob- tempus fugit.
It was definitely Al Harris who was responsible for trundling the rocks. You will remember that we came to a narrow cove that was impossible to traverse, and Al surmounted this obstacle by lassoing, with a short rope he brought for this purpose, a pinnacle across the mouth of the cove. Then we all did hand-over-hand Tyroleans across the frigid, but fortunately calm sea. As soon as one got midway accross the traverse, Al started dropping huge rocks, uncomfortably close to the suspended victim, that sent up a geyser of water, soaking the target, who could only curse.
Peter’s recollection of being sandbagged by Bob D. at the Gunks reminded me of another incident on the traverse. Brown, somewhere in the middle, pointed out to you and I a slightly overhung, low section of the traverse and said no one had ever done it. Well, the chance to bag a first ascent ( even if it was horizontal) that the famous Joe Brown could not do was irresistible. You and I worked at it for a while, making some progress, but we both backed off, neither wanting to commit, risk the fall and finish the last half mile of the traverse miserably cold and damp. In retrospect, it was probably just a ploy to try to get us into the water.
Ron- No, missed that thread. However, I think it was Pat who mentioned recently that Kamps and Rearick may have had some help from the officials on that one. I had not heard that before Pat mentioned it here.
Rick
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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Thread's a gem.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 24, 2007 - 11:16pm PT
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Way, way, BITD, there was a Vedauvoid/Greenie thing. Not much came of it, that I ever heard of, though Jardine counted some limited Coup.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 25, 2007 - 12:01am PT
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Wild Bill, I pulled Todd's pins from the Stigma/Renegade. Funny that he and I never talked about it and we were practically camping next door to each other at the time and later on. I don't think he was aware of who did it and the locals likely wouldn't fess up that they'd sent out a girl on point.
The brouhaha was this: Todd was being criticized for pre-fixing the route with several pitons prior to his free attempts. The route went clean safely with nuts and should have been preprotected in that style.
I was looking for aid practice and I innocently was recruited to do an intervention on behalf of the mildly spineless locals. After listening to all the fuss, I received the darkhorse nomination. I recall getting excited about the project never being one to avoid a good controversy. My belayer and I headed down there prior to his redpoint. I led the first pitch and pulled the pins on the way down. A couple would not come out.
Alan Watts did the second ascent that week preprotecting with nuts, and using few, if any, of the pitons that Todd had seen fit to add to the route. 5.13 was nothing new to Yosemite at the time and his renaming part of the Stigma as the Renegade, further highlighted his notoriety. His ascent was viewed as lowering the bar because the impact was considered heavy handed.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 25, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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In the early eighties there were three guys, Mike Head, Dave Head, I can't remember the third ones first name but of course his last name was Head. Anyway, they ran the show at Hueco Tanks State park outside of El Paso. One of the rangers was a climber and liked them and they were permitted to do whatever they wanted. Hueco has always had a lot of rules regarding fixed anchors, etc... Enter Todd Skinner bagging some hard lines, The Eagle and Gunfighter were two I recall. This did not sit well with the Heads and part of their reaction involved the rangers following Todd around and issuing him as many citations as they could. I think Todd ran into considerable legal difficulties as a result of their animosity.
Michael
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 25, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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Hey Mimi, that's quite a story. Thanks for laying that out there.
What are you referring to when you say "the impact was considered heavy handed." Were his pins new, or were they driven in prior placements? Just curious.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 25, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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The crack is pretty continuous and thin and wasn't very scarred since it was put up fairly late in the game, 1979. He needed the narrow pockets for finger jams and situated the pins so they weren't in the way and easier to clip.
I should add that hangdogging was still controversial in Yosemite back then too. I gave the handful of booty pitons over to the steering committee and they were supposed to have been returned to Todd.
Todd, being Todd, put them right back in and didn't miss a beat, pardon the pun, and a good time was had by all.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:32am PT
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Yeah the 3rd climber was a Crump not a Head. And nickd's interpretation of Todd's troubles being a result of rivalry and vindictiveness from the locals is utter BS! The locals did not have a free ride they followed the rules. Todd showed up and started rap bolting routes. That was WAY out of character for the established ethics and pissed off the park officials big time. Todd caused his own problems!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 25, 2007 - 11:09am PT
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In the mid to late Seventies and to a lesser degree into the Eighties there was a substantial rivalry between the Colorado Springs climbers and the Gunnison climbers. We Gunny-bunsters thought the Black Canyon belonged to US and that the Springs-tateers were invaders. It would just frost us that they always seemed to get the route a day or a week ahead of us. We would go down to do the new line we had been planning only to find that they had just done it. Part of the irritation for us was that while we were quiet about what we were doing they seemed to be media whores. We were afraid they would cause a stampede of the great unwashed proletariat to choke up OUR walls. Things drew to a crescendo when they had the unmitigated gall to rename the classic Kor-Dahlke route with the lame moniker of the Cruise. Sure they freed it about three days before us but to feel they were entitled to re-title pissed us off BIG TIME! Finally the embittered impasse was broken by Chuck Grossman. Chuck was a student at WSC in Gunnison who had connections with the Springs climbers. Chuck was the primary reason that the wall of begrudging respect came down and collaboration became the new scene,
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 25, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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philo,
the rangers were pissed that Todd was rap-bolting?
Could it be that the locals were pissed at the rap-bolting, and pointed out the bolts to the rangers who just didn't like the idea of bolts?
Just asking.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 25, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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Piton Ron, I think it was more of a case of visibility. The locals were pretty low key and the ground up approach kept bolting to a minimum. Yea I am sure the locals were really annoyed by the rap bolting. But I don't think Todds problems were a result of their having ratted him to the man. The bigger issue was how much more visible it is to be hangin' n bangin' even to the tourists. And when the tourons start asking questions about them shiny thangs you know the man is gonna get involved. By the time Todd got rolling in Hueco the hey days of Warren as the Supe were over and Big Bad Bob had come to town Climbers were about to get stomped.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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Yosemite has often seemed like the place where "outsiders" were held to a different standard than the locals.
Of course, it IS true that there are regional rivalries and ethical rivalries and Skinner was king of crossing both lines. The treatment he got after the Salathe was sewage treatment.
Nowadays, the rules at Camp 4 are so strict it's hard to say Yosemite has locals anymore. Folks are more used to climbing around the country and world and few can stay.
Well, we have locals but they rarely set the standards because to be a local you pretty much have to have a J O B which makes you S O L for pressing the hardest routes.
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 25, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Peter...I remember that day like it was yesterday. You were a really cool kid with a great amount of talent for one that was so young.
The sandbag backfired that day...I still can see myself rolling back through the bushes and you picking up your shoes and heading back to the Uberfall. It was a great time to be in the Gunks and a great time to a climber.
Bob
On Hueco...My first trip was in 83 with Catherine Freer. We pulled right through the ranger station and headed for the rocks. About 30 seconds later came Ranger Bob...a big man with a fat Texas draw asking us just what the F&%$# we were doing. I said climbing...His face turns cherry red and he then asked us to pay the fee or leave the park. I got the feeling that he didn't care for us at all.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 25, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
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Bob, those were great times!
Look me up if you ever get out here to Tahoe/Donner Summit. I would love to show you around the middle aged climber circuit, safe and sound I promise! Of course we got some good mt. biking as well.
Peter
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 25, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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Hey Philo and Hankster, You are right on about the 3rd guy being James Crump. I remember we called him Head as a joke, part of the Head Mafia. But I don't think I am so wrong about them getting the rangers after Todd. Philo is correct in saying that Todd made his own problems by not sticking to the style dictated by the locals, and they in turn were very adamant in their complaints about him to the rangers. Who did you think filled in the rangers on climbing ethics? As I recall, it wasn't really legal to drill at all there, but the locals were allowed to drill all the bolts they wanted to, which to be honest,was not many! They put up some incredibly scary routes. I liked all those guys as people, but I was (and still am) totally against rap bolting. When I first met Todd at Hueco I was prepared not to like him at all because of his climbing ethics, but he turned out to be a really great guy. I liked him a lot and had some great times with him. I still have more respect for the ground up, totally risking your life ethic. I was always very impressed with the courage shown in developing those routes at Hueco. I always thought Mike Head was one of the nerviest guys I ever met. Please don't think I am bad rapping anyone I mentioned because I have great respect for all of them. I'm just another old guy reminiscing.
Michael
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:31am PT
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Karl said "Yosemite has often seemed like the place where "outsiders" were held to a different standard than the locals."
Maybe the operative word should be "sometimes" rather than "often." I think Robbins & Co. viewed Harding as an outsider, and the young guys who rolled in and climbed the Heart Route were certainly given scant respect. But Squamish locals seemed always welcome. Hugh Burton and Steve Sutton, for example, put up several lines on El Cap and I don't recall anybody whining about "outsiders stealing our routes."
D
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:25am PT
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Climbers, especially in their "youth," seem to bear the burden of a great deal of insecurity and, at times, a lack of generosity.
Royal, you know, took me under his wing, and I was incredibly young and dumb, and all that. I watched his every move. Already as a gymnast at age 17, in 1964, I was stronger than he, yet he had that special mastery, that granite-honed technique, from which I could learn. Imagine traveling with him for a month, climbing every day, then having the master as your own personal tour guide for your first trip to Yosemite. Anyway, he was soon after invited to be editor of Summit Magazine. He promptly (and not so subtly) revealed his desire to lord over the climbing community, in terms of its ethical practices on rock. He was like some kind of Darth Vader, with that deep forbidding voice. He invited me to write an article for Summit, which I did. It was my first published article, and there was a good spirit to it all. Then, a year or two later, he invited me to contribute to "Scree" (I think that's what he called that little section of debate/commentary, in Summit). So I wrote and mailed in a piece about how I had returned to Yosemite and done something like twenty-five 5.10 cracks in a week's time. Mind you, that was a lot for those days. I had recently read his write-up of the no-hands descent of the cable route on Half Dome, where he had written, "Even one man went down without touching his hands." So trying in my naive way to be modest the way he was, I wrote, "One man did 25 5.10 crack routes in one week's time." By the way, 5.10 was the top of the standard at the time, and I was repeating all the 5.10 off-widths and Sacherer cracks and Pratt routes I could find. I believe to this day Royal felt threatened by those accomplishments, as this was his territory, and he didn't want even a good friend, but especially not from outside California, even his own protege, coming along and doing TOO well. But he was miffed by the false modesty, in writing "One man... etc." He published a follow up column rebuking me, saying, "Of course everyone knows who that one man is," and raking me over the coals. I wrote him a letter reminding him of his own, "Even one man went down without touching his hands," and he saw then where I got my model. He wrote me an apology, and we were friends again. But Royal, almost more than anyone, was at once very generous when someone showed undeniable skill but jealous in an insidious way at times of people who were good but perhaps lacked some kind of coolness. I very much lacked any sort of cool, in those days, being wildly immature and uneducated in the proper nuances of social etiquette, etc.
When Erickson came to Colorado, I welcomed him. I could boulder circles around him, but he was a Devil's Lake Popeye, with bulging forearms, which were good for long tiring pitches. Instead of competing with him, as I easily could have done (I enjoyed humiliating him on short hard pitches, in a playful sort of way), I truly wanted to see him succeed and, as one example, literally gave him the Naked Edge. I told him to go do it, that I had no claim on anything anymore, and that was when that route became his dream. I could have stolen it at any time, but I liked him and wanted to see him have a great experience up there.
I felt no animosities from Pratt, Higgins, Kamps, and other Yosemite greats, who were utterly generous, when I did the first 5.11 in the Valley in 1967. They all sustained that route as the first 5.11, though others have tried to give the honor to later climbers, since the Slack was such a short little route. But I think a few at the time of the ascent resented it. People can debate this, and there's no proof, but I still think a jealous local (of a lesser variety than those various best climbers) pulled out the block that left it now so much easier. Higgins recently wrote me and said (to show his kind of generosity), "I flopped off of it once and thought to return and do it, but you got it. That was a mighty prize. Maybe the block is still there in the talus. We could put it back in the crack, and then climbers would know how hard that was back then." I greatly admired those Yosemite greats for the way they welcomed me. But certainly not everyone did. I think Kor might have been the only outsider absolutely no one in the Valley resented, because he was such a wonderful spirit and amusing character.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:42am PT
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A small P.S.
Someone above cited Billy Westbay as a Colorado climber. I would gladly claim him as one of ours, because he was one of the genuinenly phenomenal climbers of his time, as evidenced by his lead of that horrific offwidth on the Diamond (that Bachar told me was desperate even to follow). But in fact Billy was a California climber, and a hearalded one, before living in Colorado. I always viewed him as a kind of transplant to our state. His passing was a great loss for us all.
As for the Diamond. No one stole that route. All due respects to Kor and Northcutt, who could certainly have climbed the wall in good style, Rearick and Kamps simply presented indisputable credentials, having done such big walls as Half Dome and Sentinel, and the rangers could not refuse their application. For quite a time, the rangers had felt the deaths of Prince Willmon and friend in a snowstorm had brought bad notoriety to the mountain, and they were afraid of something like that occurring again. I don't defend the park service, but I know when they were approached by Rearick and Kamps they had to take a whole new look at things, and I belive Dave and Bob did the best job anyone could have done back then. Kor never really complained. Rather Dale Johnson expressed his disappointment in having been refused permission earlier. Though I deeply respect Dale, who was one of my first climbing teachers, he had a more liberal attitude then about bolts and was not practiced in the finer piton work of the Californians. He might have succeeded, but Rearick and Kamps did it the right way and were the right ones for the job at that moment in time. I was too young then to even know what rivalry was and was thrilled. The Californians were my heroes, and I had no idea Rearick would soon move to Colorado and become my main climbing partner, or that I would do so much climbing with Kamps, and have both of them as my eternal friends.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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philo said
"Yeah the 3rd climber was a Crump not a Head. And nickd's interpretation of Todd's troubles being a result of rivalry and vindictiveness from the locals is utter BS! The locals did not have a free ride they followed the rules. Todd showed up and started rap bolting routes. That was WAY out of character for the established ethics and pissed off the park officials big time. Todd caused his own problems!"
This is what I remember from hanging out with the Heads and Crump. Bolting of any kind was illegal at Hueco at the time, so new routes were often put in on windy days or when the Heads knew the ranger was away, and of course a lot of natural gear placements were used. The Hueco climbing ranger under Bob, Donnie Hardin, lived in park housing on-site so he knew when Bob was gone. It seems to me that Donnie would tip off Mike and Dave that the coast was clear for them to drill.
There's no doubt though about there being animosity towards Todd using rap-bolting and I remember there being other issues but I wasn't involved directly and don't remember or care. I wouldn't be surprised if James and the Heads had Donnie tip off Bob about what was going on, but however it came to be noticed, it was too much culture shock for old Bob to handle and Todd felt his wrath.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jun 26, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Lloyd Price - Swan Slab Aid Route , 5.11 1965.
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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Bouldering with Al Harris at Baldy, after I did the left side of chuco boulder, he downclimbed it, slipped and fell, broke his ankle, then recovered with Mergatroyd at Goodykoontz' apartment.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
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Lloyd Price? 5.11 in '65? Where would the evidence be for that? I think we all would have known. If it happened, I'm suspecting it did later.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:47pm PT
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All the Meyers and Reid Yosemite guides show the FFA of Swan Slab Aid Route as being "Loyd Price and friends, 1967".
The Roper green book (1971) doesn't record it as having been freed.
The spelling "Loyd" is unusual.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
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Skinner did more than just rap bolting, which was bad enough.
He was not low key AT ALL!!
In the rangers face, doing what he wanted - on one of the routes mentioned earlier (Gunfighter, I think), he even fixed a metal ladder to the route for multiple days for the bolting project! The Heads and Crump were reputed to be way more subtle about it - Mike Head and his free solo of, then ground-up bolting of Sea of Holes 5.10a was super inspiring!
It wasn't about a regional rivalry - it was about an ego-driven dude coming in and breaking all the rules in daylight and predictable consequences soon to follow!
You just can't flout authority so blatantly - especially in Texas!
I respect the hell out of Skinner, and he was an awesome dude, but he did more to put Hueco in it's current lock-down status than any other single climber, ever.
-A
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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Almost always I've been an outsider at famous climbing areas. And almost always the best climbers have been very welcoming and encouraging. My first trip to Camp 4. Chouinard comes up to me with a tin cup of tea in his hand. Points to me with his other hand: "I know you", he says "We went soloing together in Ogden Canyon". Yvon remembered me from two years earlier, when I'd been a nearly mute 14-year old disciple following him around on quartzite blocks and slabs. When he found out one of my objectives on this trip was to climb his route on Sentinel as my first Yosemite wall, he gave me key words of beta and encouragement.
On a first trip to Eldo in about 1973, local hardman, Kevin Donald was all good vibes and enthusiasm as he soloed just above my brother, Mike, and me on Hair City. It was almost too casual and friendly that day. I watched Kevin climb the good-sized roof on the last pitch as if it was just a big upside-down ladder, then he waited for me to come up, poised right at the lip. I tried to make the roof moves just as casually as Kevin had, but screwed up the sequence and had to grab a small, untested hold above the lip. In the middle of pulling over the lip, the hold broke, and I went for forty feet, being caught just a couple of feet above the ledge my brother was belaying on. Kevin quickly down-climbed to see if I was OK. Well, I was "Shaken - not stirred". After a moment to gather my wits, I went back up and more carefully climbed over the roof. On top, Kevin told me he'd really felt bad about almost killing me, and I believed him! It was all my fault, of course.
There were many stories of Americans going to Chamonix and being shunned by the French alpine aristocracy. My own experience was just the contrary, with famous climbers inviting me to do good new routes with them on first meeting. Thierry Renault, Franscois Damilano, Catherine Destivelle and many others were incredibly open and hospitable, and the several seasons I spent in the area yielded some of my fondest memories and lasting friendships.
Really it's mostly a matter of getting back what you project, in these kinds of social situations. But not always. I recall not quite so fondly, times when individuals from the northwest, Canada and England blindsided me with thier aggressive attacks. These were people I'd never met who seemed to have sized me up from hearsay and rumor and decided I was worthy only of contempt. It's water off a duck, though...none of them were very good climbers!
Oli, it was great to see and your family last Saturday night!
-Jello
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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Regarding Swan Slab, in addition to what Anders noted, the route was rated 5.10d in Bridwell's 1973 Brave New World article http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/brave.htm . So perhaps it didn't become a 5.11 until further polishing of the footholds?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jun 26, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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Yellow Meyers Guide......?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 26, 2007 - 09:39pm PT
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Yellow Meyers guide also says "Loyd Price et al, 1967". The original (1976) green Meyer's guide doesn't have route credits.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jun 26, 2007 - 09:42pm PT
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I stand corrected.....still a contender though *
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:19pm PT
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Tahoe Climber, I am not disagreeing with you about the impact Todd had at Hueco, but I would like to say this. More than any climbers, it was local gangsters from El Paso who started tagging the whole area in the 80s that affected access the most. Their impact was so pernicious and destructive that I almost can't blame the powers that be for restricting it the way they have. The climbers who flocked there in great numbers when the sport climbing craze started were destructive of the vegetation and the rock art, but at least they did not spray paint everything within their reach. If you think tourists and rangers take notice of bolting, how do you think they reacted to all that graffiti?
Michael
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Rumor has it that Bridwell wanted to beat Henry with a hammer after the boy from back East did Butterballs??
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:33pm PT
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rivalries?? RIVALRIES??????
woodson vs. roubidoux.
san diego vs. smell-a.
the war is over, and we won.
end of discussion.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:42pm PT
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Dah-reem-on venerable brother, BVB...
Henny shud be out any minute to pick up that gauntlet.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:58pm PT
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bvb: rivalries?? RIVALRIES??????
woodson vs. roubidoux.
san diego vs. smell-a.
the war is over, and we won.
end of discussion.
Tarbuster: Dah-reem-on venerable brother, BVB...
Henny shud be out any minute to pick up that gauntlet.
Bob now lives in Flagstaff, and Roy in Colorado. Looks like a draw to me - both teams had to retreat.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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Back in 1981, a few of us AZ climbers went to climb one El Gran Trono Blanco and upon arriving at the parking lot, we had to face the overseers from San Diego. I was in the company of Sir Stan of Mish, who engaged a young Sir Greg of Epperson, as I recall, to gain passage and permission to climb. I was ignorant of why all the fuss. Either the locals were a bit touchy or had been warned in advance of Sir Stan. After a loud exchange and finally laughter, we were allowed entrance to Canyon Tajo and The Throne. Sir Greg then summoned his wizard who conjured up a fine Mexican snow storm to dash any hopes of conquest. At least we were able to enjoy a couple of days of amazing boulder running and exploring before bailing for the calm clime of Tempe.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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Jello, who says of the welcome one can expect in other areas, "Really it's mostly a matter of getting back what you project, in these kinds of social situations" is dead-center right -- not only in the welcomes he has received, but in the welcomes he has given.
Jeff, I have no idea if you remember or not, but with a couple of kind words you turned the scariest "outsider" day of my life into one of my fondest memories. Here's the story...
Don't remember the exact date, but in the early 90s, I was invited to speak about "mountain writing" at some kind of climbing conference in Italy. Who's going to ask questions about a fully-paid trip to Florence? I gave it about one-tenth of a second's thought and said "Yes." I happily wrote out my thoughts on the subject and before long was on the plane to one of my favorite places on earth.
But the first morning of the event (up in the hills at Casa Machiavalli) after the Italian politicos had given their pro forma speeches and I was introduced to give the keynote speech, the insanity of the whole thing hit me and I turned to Jello. Sitting in front of me was a pretty fair sampling of the greatest climbers of three generations, most of whom had published well-respected and successful books, and I'm supposed to tell them about mountain writing? Not that I was a total gumby at climbing or writing, but it felt like just about everyone in that room was better qualified to be standing at the podium than I was.
Somehow I managed to talk for twenty minutes, and get throught the following Q&A discussion without fainting or sh*tting my pants, but at the end of it I just wanted to find a drain somewhere and disappear down it. Really. I was sure I'd made a complete fool of myself in front of a room full of my heros, and firmly believed that the best thing to do was to find a bar and drink myself to death.
But at the end of the session you were the first to come up to me with... not kind words in the sense of trying to make someone feel good about a bad situation, but with kind words in the sense of enthusiasm and enjoyment of a subject of common interest. Not because you knew me, or had heard of me, or because there was anything in it for you, but just because you are a decent guy. So, fifteen years later, thanks.
(In the end, that talk got some decent reviews, and Michael K re-published it in what was then a pretty fine climbing journal, but at the time, man, I was just scared sh*tless.)
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:33am PT
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I guess I'm wondering if the petty rivalry spirits are what we really want to remember. Are they what represent the best of climbing, in our memories? I rather prefer to think about the times of generosity and camaraderie, when people were warm and caring and those spirits who (or WHEN they) rose above the self-aggrandizement and competition. I'm sure most of us have suffered from the ego thing, the insecurity thing, the growing up immature thing, the vicious back-biting thing, the negating of others thing... but sometimes we move beyond and remember what climbing really is/was all about.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:37am PT
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So true, so true Pat.
Negativity only begets losing sight of the real goal.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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Tami talks about Bill Price's visit to Squamish in 79, and how Daryl Hatton helped make him welcome, even though he was an outsider coming to pluck some of our choicest plums.
In fact, Daryl was a good friend of the guy who came up with Bill. Daryl and I were drinking in the Chieftan (the worst armpit of a bar in the whole universe, but the best that Squamish had to offer back then) one night when a couple of strangers walked in. First thing I knew about it was Daryl jumping up and slugging one of them with a blow that would have left me on the floor. The victim just laughed and gave Daryl a similar shot. More laughter. More punches.
I eventually figured out this was friendship, not vendetta, and we all got back to drinking. The two strangers were Bill Price and Big Wally -- who's name may have been Mike Boris, it was never really clear. Daryl and Big Wally engaged in a few boat races, then got to arguing about who was tougher. They settled it by pulling up sleeves, laying their forearms against each other on the table and dropping a lit cigarette into the valley between them. Wally was tough, but he was up against the master of pain, and eventually pulled his arm away.
Anyway, you're right, Daryl made them seem like locals who just happened to be from somewhere else, and Bill went on to do what he did, and Big Wally became (I think) part of the inspiration for your archetypal "aid climber: recently released from prison -- has never free climbed." I know a lot of that character came from Daryl, but Daryl actually could free climb, and Wally couldn't. He was a "California hard man who had been on El Cap", but when we started up Uncle Ben's the day after that night in the bar, he wouldn't even lead the first 5.7 approach pitch. If it couldn't be nailed, he couldn't climb it.
D
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:25am PT
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I remember when the "hotties" of JT (Largo, Bachar, Lechlinski, Hill, Gingery, et al) were shaking in their boots when the Mighty Sheep Buggerers of Sierra Madre descended on the crags. In short order we failed on all their projects, but injected some new language into the sport and reshuffled the deck for all those who dared to follow. I think the first openly gay climbers club (The Joe Boys) wanted a piece of that pie too.... Tarbuster? Is that pretty much what went down???
Oh yeah.. and all those Colorado guys that came out pretty much had no pull in them, save for Skip... even the BVB San Diego Boys could burn off those Eldo prancers.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:38am PT
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What Russ said.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 27, 2007 - 02:24am PT
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Stoney Point rules.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 27, 2007 - 04:07am PT
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Eldorado prancers with "no pull?" That has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read here of late. Yes Skip was brilliant but only one of VERY MANY who could pull plenty hard, and certainly as hard as anyone else in the country. I could give a long list, but it seems ridiculous now to even let myself be affected by such remarks. Must be that California superiority complex raising its ugly head again. It comes and goes. I hate to imagine what individuals such as Greg Lowe, Mark Wilford, Jim Collins, Jim Karn, Bob Candelaria, or a couple dozen others I could name, might have achieved had they spent any time at all in the areas named. But then of course there was the bouldering of Jim Holloway... simply unequalled anywhere, in its time. Why so much animosity? How about trying a little of the opposite.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 27, 2007 - 04:14am PT
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lol, Russ you troll!
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 27, 2007 - 08:48am PT
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Oli said:"Eldorado prancers with "no pull?" That has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read here of late. Yes Skip was brilliant but only one of VERY MANY who could pull plenty hard, and certainly as hard as anyone else in the country. I could give a long list, but it seems ridiculous now to even let myself be affected by such remarks. Must be that California superiority complex raising its ugly head again. It comes and goes. I hate to imagine what individuals such as Greg Lowe, Mark Wilford, Jim Collins, Jim Karn, Bob Candelaria, or a couple dozen others I could name, might have achieved had they spent any time at all in the areas named. But then of course there was the bouldering of Jim Holloway... simply unequalled anywhere, in its time. Why so much animosity? How about trying a little of the opposite."
I guess you lost your sense of humor along with your sanity.
BTW.. Jim Karn is from Ohio.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 10:09am PT
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Hahahaha LOL Russ what a classic
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 27, 2007 - 10:33am PT
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SNYD wrote: Oli said:"Eldorado prancers with "no pull?"
No is wasn't Pat that said that...it was Russ.
No pull...but we sure can push.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 27, 2007 - 11:36am PT
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Nothing but a bunch of stone laden sinners......Tsk, tsk. Twas the "usual provincial talent" comment that might have earned the high gravity gaff. Hard to say who can claim origination on the greatest of American rivalries, but is there any lingering doubt about the identity of the standard bearer for Team Colorado? On topic completely and too funny.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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Pat, I'm not trying to speak for Russ, but when I agreed with him, it was purely in jest.
I have the utmost admiration for both CA and CO climbers. And it was your shot about the stone masters that prompted me to chime in.
Cheers,
Mimi
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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>> woodson vs. roubidoux.
You lookin' for a fight bvb?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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I remember a brisk spring evening at the trail head for Granite Mountain in 1976. Three of us were on Spring break from the frozen wastelands of Western State College in Gunnison, Colorado. We had just returned from our 1st day of climbing there and were standing around Jennifer's dusty little veewee bug with Colorado plates contemplating the future. Suddenly up strides a walking ear to ear grin with muscles. "HOWDY" booms the stranger an obvious local. We introduce our selves to Stan Mish and get the royal welcome tour and all. Maybe it was because we were good climbers or perhaps because we had mutual friends including locals Rusty B and Dave Lovejoy but I never felt the slightest animosity towards us outsiders. We were not invaders but accepted and appreciated like old friends.
Stan and I became friends and did some really nice climbing over a few years til life paths and other distractions took us on separate compass bearings. But I still remember the warmth of that "HOWDY".
In contrast a year or so later at the end of an incredible learning curve and on a hot streak I went to the Valley sans rope mate. Camp four was a veritable cold shoulder to me! I was climbing hard and solid and I don't think I was arrogant. Still, with few exceptions like Californian Alan Bartlett and Coloradans Aaron Walters and Keith(soon to be a Californian)Loeber, connecting with a partner was problematic at best. Approaching someone unknown and asking if they wanted to do a particular route felt more like I was the nerd asking the hot chick to dance. To this day I still don't like asking strangers to climb or hot chicks to dance. Maybe I was overlooked because I was just one more young Coloradan rock rat and thus unworthy. Perhaps not having a partner to begin with made me seem untrustworthy. Possibly finding out I'd been spending most of my time in the Black Canyon meant I was unbelievably weird and should be avoided at all costs. I really don't know what the reason but there weren't any warm "HOWDYS".
Later and most of a state farther south I again got adopted by the local crag-munity. Taken in like the stray cat I was and fed a nourishing diet of kibbles-n-sandbags and occasionally a meager dessert of humble pie. Still I met some of the finest folks I've ever known; Mona Stahl and her sons, Chris Gonzales, Maria Cranor, Randy Vogel, Jim Angione and many others who accepted me even if I was an outsider.
Rivalries are interesting. Hey babe wanna dance?
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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Something as one sided as "rubidoux vs. woodson" can't be debated, or even considered a rivalry.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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Regarding rivalry and competition,
During the period from 77-81 when I was lucky enough to spend a lot of my time as a Camp 4 resident hard boy, we had a lot of connection and camaraderie with our generation mates from other areas - as Tami recollects. Like birds on an annual migration, our friends from Colorado, Squamish, Australia or wherever cycled through each spring. Folks like Peter Croft and Tami Knight, Mark Wilford, Pat Adams, Beth Bennett, Dan and Jim Michaels, Java, Darryl Hatten, Grandstaff and many more fit right into the local scene and added a lot to it. My memory is that we were all pretty laid back, intense about climbing but not so much that it interefered with always having a great time with friends.
During the mid 80's, the vibe got a lot more intense. Though I had nothing but respect for the achievements of my friend Bacher and his disciples, the intensity of the soloing and runout culture left little room for anything but attitude. As a guide during those years I felt like I always had to be somewhat of an ambassador for any visitors and I was really bummed by some of the treatment that European friends received when they came to the park.
During the next era, I was quick to embrace sport climbing for two reasons, first I could crank plenty of pitches while sharing a great day with my then 6 year old son, and second, the attitude got a lot more friendly at the crag, everyone just out trying their best and trying to learn.
It was facinating to be a participant when climbing became overtly competitive in an organized way, (through the visionary efforts of Jello!) At the 2nd Snowbird comp, the first with qualifiers open to anybody, the climbers left standing in the final qualifiers were members of that late 70's laid back generation, Pat Adams, Mark Wilford, Alex Lowe etc. Most of the stronger, but with more to prove, new generation of sport climbers fell off in nervousness. It was interesting to share that short era travelling with old camp 4 friends, on tour with the Jello show. Of course the young ins figured it all out, and the walls got steep and more accessible to the young and strong but footwork challenged.
Jello, when are you going to organize a Masters tour?
Peter
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
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Philo, Aaron Walters is really from Beloit (he told me that was the sound of a turd hitting the liquid in a chemical toilet)Wisconsin;admittedly, via, estes Park.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 27, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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Jim Karn spent plenty of time in Colorado, as a student of mine, in fact, prior to his shooting out into the world of sport climbing celebrity... Many of us Boulder Coloradans came from "someplace" other than Boulder.
Seems some still struggle with my "provincial" comment. That was not meant as a reduction in the greatness of any climber. Hardly. It was to say that every area in America had and has its "stonemasters," its genius climbers. It was to say the Californians weren't/aren't alone in doing some incredible climbing. And it might have been to imply that often climbers in one single area (name any area you wish) go about mastering and developing the climbs of that area but are not so aware of what is going on in the rest of the world. Many don't go and do the real testpieces in other areas. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule, and it doesn't mean those who are mostly limited in experience to their own worlds couldn't venture out successfully, but I have seen horrendously talented climbers from California flail on routes in Eldorado because they weren't used to that kind of rock or that kind of climbing. Likewise I've seen brilliant climbers from Colorado, or Europe, or anywhere, flail in Yosemite for the same reasons. It simply is presumptuous to assume that because a certain band of climbers does phenemonal things that they are the elite of the climbing world, when in fact there are equally fine climbers in many parts of the world. The provincial aspect is a matter of perspective, rather than ability. You could be the best climber in the world perhaps but be provincial: i.e., unaware of the other best climbers in the world in other places. For years, from a distance, people dismissed Gill as "only a boulderer," when in fact they were so out of his league as a rock climber they couldn't even imagine what it would have taken to get half way to where he was/is. The Californians more or less felt they were at the cutting edge during the '60s, and they were indeed in many respects, although Greg Lowe was leading 5.11+ in good style in 1965, and the first 5.11 routes came to Utah, Colorado, and South Dakota. Every time some or other group starts sending messages that suggest they feel they are the standard of excellence, they tend to negate the achievements of others. We've seen it over and over, starting with our original heroes in the Valley who felt they were the elite, until Kor showed up and halfed their wall times. Or again, as Henry visited and led Butterballs, Fish, etc., soloing Sentinel in the time it takes me to rope up at the bottom (well, actually, Pratt and I did that Sentinel route in twice the time Henry did it, but...still that was fast). And that's the way it is. We get provincial. All of us. In every climbing area, we get provincial, focused on our own world, thinking the world centers around us. I'm as guilty as the next (or was, back when I was a climber), and we always learn our lesson when someone comes along, such as Wolfgang or Edlinger, or Croft... from the outside and shows us, once again, that there are other worlds out there. No one has more respect and love for the Stonemasters than do I. I view all of them as my friends. But if I can't cite my friends for a small bit of occasional provincialism, then forgive me. In no way is it or was it intended to put anyone down or dismiss any aspect of their climbing, rather simply to remind them and all of us that we sometimes have a narrower view than desirable when it comes to defining that strange world of achivement.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 27, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Yeah, what he said!
We used to hang back and laugh at the know-it-all greenies when they would lieback, then fall off, then call sandbag on, the cracks @ Vedauwoo.
... a bunch of those guys got better, though.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 27, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Hey Ghost. Thanks for writing that. Makes me feel good to know that my real interest in your thought-provoking talk made you feel better, too. I had no idea you were nervous!
Cheers, Jeff
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 27, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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Damn straight Russ,
And don't forget to toss the French on that ash heap too...
When it came to re-inventing pop rock culture and laying down the wicked, overwrought heretical bombast, the Sheepbuggers and tres femme Joe Boys reigned supreme.
Never you mind Oli, this isn't about climbing here, ('cause of course you are spot on in that regard), and besides, anyone in earshot wanted a piece of the action, whether they knew any better or not, even that ruffian Werner fell to the fallow and uproarious ways...
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Dimes
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 27, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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In regards to rivalries, does there not have to be at least a little competition-rubidoux vs woodson encompasses none of that. I got so tired of carrying crying towels with me and listening to all the whining and complaining about the ratings. Ya, old style slabby 5.10 is hard and 5.11 even harder and more desperate and at 5.11+ Henny and I would think of doffing our tennis shoes and putting on climbing shoes. And we were still warming up when the mangled masses laying in the dirt would cry UNCLE. Pathetic!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 27, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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i got yer pink bug right here, boys. now don't make me break out my lie detector.....
swear to god, it's 5.10a. on the outside, that is.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 28, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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Maysho- my feeble old brain is almost far gone enough to consider inviting all you (somewhat) old farts here to Ogden, for a reunion and (s)ho(e)(w)down. Sooooo much work and pain for those Snowbird world-cup events, but maybe it would be a lot easier for a more casual Old-timer Climber Rendezvous and SushiFest? Let me finish up with this ice tower thing we've got going here, then we could talk about it. We already have a great new Entreprises wall that just openned.
-SuckerJello
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Jun 28, 2007 - 01:22am PT
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"Lie Detector"? Been there, done that.
You're going to have to hit harder than that. C'mon bvb, hit me with your best shot...
Oh, and why is it that you keep mentioning that "Pink Bug" warm up problem? Sounds like you're in need of the classic Rubidoux "Psychoanalysis"...
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:07am PT
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Sorry, Rick, to see this thread go so downhill. I was thinking, though, that there might have been healthy, good rivalries. I'm trying to think of some, where people pushed each other competitively, yet there remained mutual respect. One that comes to mind is with Greg Lowe and me. We both had heard of each other in the early-mid 1960s, and a mutual friend kept telling us about each other, so we were inspired by each other's climbing. Greg pushed hard, so that he could try to do as tough or tougher things as I was doing. And it was the same for me. I trained, with Greg in the back of my mind often. And no matter how well Greg climbed, I continued to admire him. He and I spoke not too long ago, both of us has-beens now of a high order (although far more in my case), and I told him, regarding all the speculation about our abilities back then and who was better, it was my strong conviction that he was by far the better climber. He said to me he felt I was. That shocked me. Ultimately it didn't matter. My rival was as generous as he was able, and at no point through the years had we lost respect for one another.
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 07:21am PT
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Jebus Oli, if one read only your posts one might think that the world ended in 1973 and that when it ended only you, Jello, and Royal Robbins were in it.
"And no matter how well Greg climbed, I continued to admire him."
What is your problem? Newsflash pal, most beings on the planet like to see their fellow humans do well. Oh yeah, we make jokes and talk smack but there is nothing cooler than seeing someone absolutely hike a route that had you in tears! It's too bad that you dimwits back in the 60s didn't have real talent like a 12 year old Katie Brown lurking around to knock your gigantic egos into the dirt at the base of Redgarden Wall.
"Greg pushed hard, so that he could try to do as tough or tougher things as I was doing." Pfffffffffft! You think a lot of yourself don't you? Perhaps Greg pushed because that is what people do. Intrinsic reward is always the best reward.
Oh yes, the thread headed downhill! The second that has been candidate for the next episode of intervention, BVB pokes his crusty skull into the mix where else can the conversation go but straight to the gutter?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:27am PT
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Snyd, jeez, calm down and get off the caffeine. Go eat some bluegrass. ;-)
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:42am PT
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I can't help myself. Heh.
Oh yeah, and while we are at it...Kentucky is way better than anything out west.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:53am PT
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Better for what? Gettin permission to marry your sister?
Everyone who is not a Californian wishes they were! :)
Peter
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:03am PT
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Who needs permission?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:21am PT
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snyd, I sure hope you are trollin' 'cause you come across as a whinney little gym rat thats been climbing all of a year. Could you possibly have so little awareness of the history of our sport that you felt justified in bashin' Jello as an egotist?
So are ya trollin' or are ya a tool?
Oh yeah,
Kunt-ucky is a world class climbing destination. LOL
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:38am PT
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I guess that I'm a tool.
My name is Chris Snyder. I have climbed a little bit over the years. I have climbed with a lot of you all in Yosemite, Josh, and around Boulder.
Maybe you can't read. I didn't bash Jello. I was bashing this person known on this board as Oli. Do I have to kiss his a$$ because he just happens to be old and has done a few routes out west?
Have you been to Kentucky? I guess you have the idea that my state is filled with a stack bumkins smokin' 'baccy and bangin' family members. It is, heh. It also happens to contain one of the finest climbing areas on the planet. The place has 3400 miles of cliff line so I guess that there are bound to be a couple of good routes among the choss. No, there is no Elcap, no Cookie, no Donner Summit, and no Shelf Road (thank god). What we do have is nice collection of steep sport routes and a smattering of crack climbs to rival anything, anywhere.
It is a shame that you chose to put down my place of residence by equating it with a term often used by misogynists and retards when they run out of real things to say. You are cordially invited to stay in Boulder and climb your pathetic overbolted, chipped heaps up on Boulder Canyon.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:51am PT
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i think what you got here is a kentucky style rivalrie going!
yeehaw!
i aint never been there but it sounds like some good times. so long as your sister is cute and all...
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:55am PT
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Cue the banjos...
Heap number 1
heap number 2
Please note family members engaging in sodomy at the base...
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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More family sex photos:
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:06am PT
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..and don't forget Pink Pug Snyd, you ain't got no Pink Bug in Kentucky.
What we have here folks, is a (mostly) mock 4 way battle royal!
It's still a good thread Oli and a great topic. A bit of healthy competition, leavened with respect and spiced with the requisite humor: this behavior will always attend the invested efforts of (mostly) like-minded groups seeking to push standards. Sometimes it gets out of hand...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:08am PT
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Wow, killer shots Snyd!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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Prozac, Snyd, get your doc to up your dosage. Heh heh.
Or just drink a couple glasses of wine...
...okay,okay, a bottle then.
EDIT
Oh my gawd, that guy's got his fingers in her crack (last photo). That's not his sister is it?
Rivalry - Hatfields and McCoys. I'd join the McCoy side, since they were Irish (so to speak) but the Hatfields were from West Virginia like my mom, so I am torn between the sides - McCoys/Snyd on the Kentucky side, or Hatfields/'rest of thread' on the other (West Virginai) side.
Cool pix Snyd, I'll have to climb there some day - West Virginia as well.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:30am PT
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Snyd:
Actually Abe Lincoln was born in Kentucky. In the research for this missive would you believe I came on a version of a story I had never heard about Lincoln? Everyone knows of his wrestling match with Jack Armstrong, a member of the Clary’s Grove Boys. Abe had moved into their hood so he got to wrestle their leader, Jack Armstrong. The story says after Lincoln won the gang backed him up against the (log) wall and were all set to do him in, until Jack told them to back off. He said Lincoln was a good man, had fought fair, and as far as he was concerned was now a member of Clary’s Grove. Lincoln was that way with people. People need space in which to live and to be themselves, so he gave them this. When it came time to be president, he named his bitterest rivals and extremely powerful people to his cabinet. Before the end, to a man each of those people were willing to do absolutely anything Abe needed done. By giving them space Abe had brought their immense talents to the defense of the Union. Quite amazing, but that is the only thing you have to give up in order to get people to help you.
I am not a betting person, but I’ll make you a bet. Using Abe’s technique I’ll bet you could get this Oli guy, whoever he is, to be your friend.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:35am PT
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Kumbaya...
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:40am PT
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Thanks for your thoughtfull reply jstan. I had to look up "missive". In the future when dealing with me please try to use only single syllable words.;-)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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My apologies snyd I meant no long term disrespect. I have been to Kentucky, some of my best friends are Kentuckians, even a few distant cousins are Kentuckians. It's a beautiful state.
I was just a bit put off by your apparent disregard for the historic place held by both jello (Jeff Lowe) and oli (Pat Ament). The dudes know what of they speak or in this case blog.
By the way the pics look great. Except for all those pre-hung sissy draws. Cheers and smile I was funnin'.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:43am PT
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John, don't you know that Oli is Pat Ament?
EDIT
If there are any southern folk on this thread, please don't read the following joke, as you might be offended (that's meant to be a disclaimer).
Why are the fastest women runners from the south?
They had to be growing up in order to outrun their father and brothers.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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Could it be that there are rivalries between generations?
Perhaps rivalry is not the correct term in this case.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 11:06am PT
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Pat:
Peter was quite right when he said I am not very effective, but I am having little success at changing. Anyway that post was too leaden even for me so I had to put some sort of twist in it at the end.
A question about Ireland. Even in the rural areas in the US life is now generally frantic. Does it still feel peaceful at least in the rural areas of Ireland?
The pubs there all have sessions going, right? On a session site I ran into a neat story. After this band had been playing for an hour straight, one of the customers asked if they knew another tune.
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snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
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Jun 28, 2007 - 11:15am PT
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"My apologies snyd I meant no long term disrespect. I have been to Kentucky, some of my best friends are Kentuckians, even a few distant cousins are Kentuckians. It's a beautiful state.
I was just a bit put off by your apparent disregard for the historic place held by both jello (Jeff Lowe) and oli (Pat Ament). The dudes know what of they speak or in this case blog.
By the way the pics look great. Except for all those pre-hung sissy draws. Cheers and smile I was funnin'. "
It's cool man. We all have a common love here.
Sometimes I wonder about Mr. Ament's motivations.
It is telling that one of the most memorable Ament quotes is: "Climbers disdain me and take shots at me but not as cheap as mine at them."
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Jun 28, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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Rubidoux vs. Woodson?
I went to Rubidoux once. Hiking boots, rope, unreplaceable
poncho etc. were all stolen.
Went to Woodson once. Superb day, incredible quality of climbs.
Can anybody be more objective than this?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 28, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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Oli writes: Eldorado prancers with "no pull?" That has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read here of late. Yes Skip was brilliant but only one of VERY MANY who could pull plenty hard,
Oli, with all due respect... Either you Colorado guys were keeping your best secret weapons cloistered away in some lycra and wheatgrass festooned training facility, or the best talent you sent over to Cali was just never that good from the get go. The names listed, while very good climbers, never really had the goods when it came right down to hard pulling. I once saw "Ghengis" Karn *almost* pull pretty darn hard out in Hueco one year, but then ended up quite flaccid right at the moment of actual hard-ness. I think Holloway pulled hard, but he was possibly from Santa Cruz or Palm Springs..... shabby effort trying to claim him as one of Colorados finest.....
When we sent our boys out (Bachar, Long, McClenahan), they devoured local testpieces all over the country whilst living in a Toyota Corolla and eating nothing more than rice cakes and local egos. Them boys could pull on any terrain, at a top notch standard, and had zero need for a potato in their pants or any other shenanigans.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Jun 28, 2007 - 01:29pm PT
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scuffy b: Yeap. You were more or less objective.
Rubidoux: I had the radio stolen out of my car there. Not a nice place at all in that respect. And not a nice place in other respects either, huge amounts of graffiti, etc... It used to be nice but it has steadily deteriated over the years. A pretty nasty urban scene. Still, it does have its share of problems that are quite good, some even really good.
Woodson: (can't believe I'm going to say this - bvb, close yer eyes) What can you say bad about it? I lived in the Riverside area for many years and played the hand I was dealt. I wish Woodson would have been as accessible to me as Rubidoux but it wasn't.
Over the years a friendly "rivalry" developed between some San Diego climbers and those of us in the Riverside area. Even though some (most) of its relevance is now gone we continue to exchange banter, all in good fun. BVB, KP, and myself were simply using the rivalry aspect to say "hi" to each other (plus, it's fun to try and yank bvb's chain...)
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Jun 28, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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henny,
I agree it's too bad there's such a distance between Rubidoux and
Woodson.
Circumstances. I've only been to Rubidoux once, in 1973. Surely
not much to base any opinion on.
Plus, I'm still harvesting some feel-good feelings from the
Shindig a couple months back. As I recall, hardly anybody
slandered the living heck out of you that day. I think maybe
bvb would have, but he was intimidated by KP.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 28, 2007 - 02:46pm PT
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Off topic
John, rural Ireland has still retained much of its uniqueness, but places like Dublin have seen major changes in the past ten years. This place has changed since I came here in 1995, but it really has changed big time since when I first came here in 1982.
Today,the first black person has been elected as mayor of an Irish town.
Rotimi Adebari (43), an independent member of Portlaoise Town Council, has been elected mayor of the town at a council meeting this afternoon. He came here seven years ago with his wife and two children as an asylum seeker fleeing religious persecution in Nigeria.
In 1995 Dublin could perhaps, perhaps that is, still be considered provincial, but now it is very cosmopolitan.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 28, 2007 - 03:16pm PT
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While regional rivalries certainly exist here and there and now and then, I'll bet most of us can name ten local rivalries for every regional one. Climbers from whatever area are far more likely to be pissing on each other, and on each other's routes, than they are on visitors.
David
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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synd wrote: It is telling that one of the most memorable Ament quotes is: "Climbers disdain me and take shots at me but not as cheap as mine at them."
What's telling about it?? He was young and brashful...Should have heard some of things I said in my teens and early 20's.
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Mugley
Sport climber
Riverside, CA
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Jun 28, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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Oli, with all due respect... Either you Colorado guys were keeping your best secret weapons cloistered away in some lycra and wheatgrass festooned training facility, or the best talent you sent over to Cali was just never that good from the get go. The names listed, while very good climbers, never really had the goods when it came right down to hard pulling. I once saw "Ghengis" Karn *almost* pull pretty darn hard out in Hueco one year, but then ended up quite flaccid right at the moment of actual hard-ness. I think Holloway pulled hard, but he was possibly from Santa Cruz or Palm Springs..... shabby effort trying to claim him as one of Colorados finest.....
When we sent our boys out (Bachar, Long, McClenahan), they devoured local testpieces all over the country whilst living in a Toyota Corolla and eating nothing more than rice cakes and local egos. Them boys could pull on any terrain, at a top notch standard, and had zero need for a potato in their pants or any other shenanigans.
Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha! Welcome to the WWF!
Funny thing, half of the ten most talented rock climbers I've seen in my life were neither from Cali or Colo. Not everybody postures on the 50 yard line. Hollywood is definitely #1 at self promotion (but Colorado is fairly close).
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jun 28, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
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Ricky--this is a really interesting and vast topic, (if somewhat loaded), which you introduced so well. I hope wise minds and big hearts can prevail in the discourse.
The humble Poway Mountaineers, aka "Poway Mountain Boys," like the original Stonemasters, also were enthusiastic students of climbing literature, especially the history of the Alps. But I can remember being repulsed, hearing, while I read, excessively nationalistic tones of pre and post war Europe. I imagined Adolf Hitler and Charles De Gaulle fighting it out on the Eiger's Exit Cracks with bloody ice daggers and grenades. It caused me to always ask the question,
"At what point does competitiveness become destructive?"
SNYD- Love your spicy, youthful enthusiasm and the photos and may you crank on in gorgeous Kentucky. Yet think about it a second longer...there was at least one teen-aged talent in the sixties bruising plenty of egos. His name was Pat Ament.
Oli- I can recall a conversation with Jim Bridwell in 1973. He was telling me about the great Colorado climbing, the intricate rock and the talented climbers. There were no qualifiers, no discounts, no slander and no criticisms; just LEADERSHIP.
I once read a great magazine which inspired a sense of imagination, a sense of heritage and discipline and unity. It was called "The Climbing Art." More leadership...
Okay, I'm getting overly proud of my cleverness here, all just to say that I've always loved climbers, all climbers, from all places, even the funny, embarrassing turkeys at the crag which we will someday all become, if we haven't already. The young and sometimes arrogant? They are the kids and we are the adults so let us buck up and run it out a bit if need be. They need us...they just don't know it yet! Lexington, here I come. AAC grant??
G. Bruce Adams
Mugley--I do indeed like your name. But do you mean to say that five of the ten most talented climbers you've seen in your life were from Cali or Colorado?! Where did you say were all the places you've climbed? I'd say that half is quite a high percentage, since California and Colorado definitely do not comprise 50% of the population, especially if you figure in Europe along with Kentucky! It would be interesting for us to discuss your criteria for "talented," but I think that is leading the thread out yonder. Perhaps you have gone astray and are in need of guidance in addition to practicing your computation awareness.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:39pm PT
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I seem to remember quite a few rivalties back then. There was Jim donini (from the GUNKS) daring to enter the Valley and climb Overhang overpass, Something Jim Bridwell had tried but not finished. Donini bebat him to it. We all know about Hot Henry coming to the Valley and doing Fish Crack and Butterballs before any local could do them. Genrally though he did that everywhere he went so one could never take it personally. Pete Livesey and ron Faucet stole the Moritorium and some other local projects when they first arrived in the Valley. There were Vulgarians everywhere and just to prove how much better the Valleyites were Kauk drove with Vern Clevenger to bag the second ascent of Super Crack, down-graded it and then left for the long drive home before any of the Vulgarians could sandbag them on something else. Then there are the overseas rivalities like when Rick A did the second ascent of Right Wall in Llanberris with, er, was it Mike Graham? and the Brits, Al Harris and Pete Minks couldn't (wouldn't) believe it and tried to strike back by getting Ricky really drunk on strawberry milkshakes of the adult kind the following night. I think they succeeded.....Everyone back then was convinced that their group was the best, most bitchin', and most ethical group there was and mostly we all stayed in our own little climbing areas afraid to travel around and be disappointed because, well. Maybe we weren't the best. Canadians could generally outdrink everyone. The Teton climbers could carry the heaviest packs. The Gunkies had the most outrageous attitude and the Cali climbers probably lived in the nicest, most beautiful climbing areas with the hottest women. No one really realized how talented the LOWE clan were because hardly anyone went that from beyond the California state lines to find out.
Each area had its all-stars and ethics committee. I think that generally the competition as to who was best was generally pretty friendly with not too many hard words spoken or fists exchanged.
I do remember though that whenever the Colorado contingent came to stay in Camp 4 they had Molly Higgins as their cook and she was pretty awesome at fixing great meals.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Very well summed up Bldrjac.
Russ, glad to see the fire still burns.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:20am PT
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Yes very well said Jack.
And Mussy, you are still the king of gab and mischief:
You pull a weggie on Oli and then include me with Bachar & Long!
Sheeesh, thanks fer reminding me of all that I did not accomplish, heh, heh. Here's to you...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 29, 2007 - 01:14am PT
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If you read this thread with a proper appreciation for good tongue-in-cheek humor, it's a complete riot. What's even better is I come off lookin' good, with hardly any ego at all (riiight!). That, of course, is exactly the impression I've worked for decades to cultivate. Thanks, Philo - check's in the mail...
Russ gets the prize for best troll. Snyd gets the prize for the Snyd-est remarks, and many folks like jstan, B-jac, Mr Adams and others get prizes for balanced, good-humored remarks. Oli gets his usual prize for poetic and sensitive musings which we can all appreciate and learn from, as we have done for decades, thanks to his willingness to bare his soul in all its' raw humanity. That takes more balls than an unprotected 5-whatever runout.
-TenThousandJellosDancingOnTheHeadOfAPin
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2007 - 03:47am PT
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So many things to say, but with Alzheimer's I can't remember them all.
Shabby of me to say Holloway was a Colorado climber? Hmmm. I knew only that he lived in Boulder, and he and I bouldered a lot together, and I never knew him to live anywhere else, unless it was in his younger years, before climbing. Read the piece about him in Climbing.
Katy Brown has humbly admitted she's still trying to figure out a few of my boulder routes. She's a gem.
That comment, "climbers disdain me, take cheap shots at me, but not as cheap as mine at them," was an alteration, for comic relief, of some famous remark by some celebrity, taken by Bob Godrey totally out of context. Isolate any comment, removing it from the words leading to it or following, and it will change meaning. Anyway, I was worthy of a few cheap shots in my younger days (even now?).
It doesn't surprise me that someone should utterly misinterpret my message, spirit, tone, or intent, in my comments about Greg Lowe. The topic was rivalries. I wanted to point out that not all rivalries are bad. I've had some healthy, memorable, and inspiring ones. I would imagine many of us have. How anyone could read more into that simple point, or suggest it was somehow self-serving or vainglorious, could only be a reflection of something unsettled or missing in their own life.
And should I be disturbed or surprised that there should be people out there who assail me, using profanity and petty put-downs. I can only view these as small minds trying to assert themselves forcefully. Should I feel wounded? Having the hell beat out of me for 35 years in karate and by people far tougher than I am, a few wild swings at me (that don't even come close to landing) by one flopping around in his own chaos and vomit (like that robot gone awry in the original movie Alien) will, I promise you, mean relatively nothing.
I've always had people ready to tell me I know nothing about anything, that I can't climb my way out of a paper bag, that my writing sucks, or whatever moves them, in their mean-spiritness. No Abe Lincoln in them at all. Fortunately the people that matter know what the truth is and know me, as I am blessed to be known, in the correct light, and who know my mind and spirit. As someone mentioned, Bridwell was that kind of person. Bachar is that kind of person, a dear and respected friend who has said here what he feels about my climbing and others aspects of my life. Rich Goldstone is that kind of friend, and Jeff Lowe, and Bob D'Antonio, Robbins, Frost... Always the best spirits are the most generous. John Gill wouldn't waste his time here, listening to the latest "snide" fast gun challenging him to a draw, and he would only chuckle to hear me raked over the coals yet again. He's always told me, with his wry smile, that I should view it as an honor.
So with gratitude, I will offer a poem by e.e. cummings:
Above all, you shall be young and glad.
For if you are young,
whatever life you wear will become you.
And if you are glad,
whatever's living will yourself become.
And I will say God bless you all, and "adieu,"
Pat Ament
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2007 - 10:39am PT
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Oli- To the contrary, the thread did not go downhill, it’s just the usual ST mix of the sublime and the ridiculous! Don’t take it personally and, as Tarbuster always says, watch out for the trolls around here.
Jello-I would agree with you that most locals I met while visiting were friendly and generous, including several mentioned above. Billy Westbay showed me around Eldorado on my first day there in 1978. Then I chanced on meeting Pat Ament there, who welcomed Gerry and I like we were family and put us up at his place.
Also Jello-re: Chamonix. When Graham and I first walked into the Bar Nationale in 1976, it may have been just a reflection of our own attitude, but to us it seemed like Hans Solo walking into the Star Wars saloon. However, we found the French and British climbers we met to be really good folk.
Henny, Dimes, Eeyonkee, BVB –Of course, the fiercest rivalry is the historic and celebrated Rubidoux-Woodson grudge match.
Jefe-Al Harris at Baldy! Very sorry I missed that.
Bruno-Well said.
Bldrjac- Jack, Thanks for the revisionist history about my adventure on the Right Wall of Dinas Cromlech. However much I would like to remember that I climbed that route; in fact, I took a lengthy fall on it and this ignominious failure was highlighted in Mountain Magazine. To be fair, it should be mentioned that Pete Livesey, who did the first ascent, had used a top rope inspection, and I was trying for the first on-sight ascent. Rob and I had little idea where it went and my main excuse is that it’s pretty hard to figure out where it goes just looking up at it. I’ve got other excuses, too.
Snyd-Bless your heart! Here’s a tip. If you want Kentucky to get more respect, it’s not enough to have great climbs and beautiful photographs of them. You need a lyrical writer like Pat Ament, or a muscular writer like John Long, to describe the adventures and personalities of the Deep South.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:39am PT
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That's pretty good Ricky,
I'll go a bit further: for the most part, I'd say rivalries are cultivated over time, owing as Jello said to the intention or "projected" attitude of the participants. I have found, upon visiting an area, that the locals rarely start straight out into a rivalry. Rivalry is an outcome of histories and series of events, typically comprising attitude, performance, & personality. They take time to develope and reflect the unique dynamic of those individuals and groups involved.
A couple brothers who used to live in the Valley visited JT once in the late 70's and I was there in the desert mid-week and got to know them. They did a lot of travelling and their advice to me was: always, when visiting an area, one might grant the locals that they are essentially the experts in their locale and generally to convey that humble attitude to the locals is to help get off to a good start. Don't run right out and attempt to snap off the test pieces, "ease into it" they said and acceptance with camraderie is more likely to follow.
Take heart Oli, you are one of the best contributors we have in this forum and your presence is a terrific honor in many ways.
"When yer a Jet yer a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette to your last dyin' day!"
 West Side Story.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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"Little boy you're a man
little man you're a king"
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:09pm PT
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I'll echo what has been said, that rivalries come in all sorts of flavors: ranging from productive ones in the true spirit of active competition, which spur us on and make us stronger, to mean spirited, juvenile arse biting rivalries, which drag us down into sophomoric drivel and everything in between.
And yes Jello!
Most of what has come up here, besides actual reportage and constructive rumination, has been a type of jocular, mock, double entendre re-enactment or portrayal of silly rivalries long lost to our fading youth.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Walleye, those masked winter raiders on Half Dome were not Coloradans at all. It was a couple of Utah boys, Rob Keisel and Greg Lowe, 1972. They were out to test the LURP tent (Limited Use Of Reasonable Placements - a take-off on RURP), the first porta-ledge.
That makes me think of a rivalry that existed for a time in the sixties and seventies, between locals in the Canadian Rockies and visiting Americans who would go north and pluck some of the best plums. Never any open hosilities, just an undertone of a little Canadian frustration. That all went away when the local ranks were fortified by guys like Elzinga, Lauchlan, Blanchard, Blench and too many others to mention. The vast majority of the new routes in the Canadian Rockies are now established by a large local group of some of the hardest-climbing alpinists in the world.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 29, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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BURP:
The new acronym for climbing forums.
Boneheads Uttering Repeated Parody (or Poop as the case may be...)
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Jun 29, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
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Who can forget the rivalry between Pink Royd and Dutzi?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 29, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
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Jello: local Canadian Rockies climbers like ...Steve House? Maybe he is an honorary Canadian because he is a friend of Barry's.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 29, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
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AP, I said the vast majority of new routes are now being done by locals in the Canadian Rockies. Of course, occasionally a couple of Yanks like Steve and partner (Colin?) will pull off something good, as well.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 29, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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I want to add my voice to the plea for Pat(Oli) to stay with us. The number of poster who really appreciate your words and presence vastly outnumbers those who would dis you. Please stay!
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Jun 29, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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It has always been entertaining to see batholiths, cooled, exposed and exfoliated over eons.... treated by a 22 year old with a repugnant sense of ownership.
cast your mind on the bolt chopping 80's at suicide, when... unless you were a member of the local route police, you route was chopped... not because of the line, but because the "locals"
read clique, had not established it, Arcadia, or Pasadena were just too far away to be considered local... the route is there now anyway, didn't matter who "put it up" first.
or think of Riddles in the Dark... that was a rivalry thing,
too hard to be put up on lead they thought, so that obviously justified chopping it... that was corrected after some years of silliness by more people who thought they owned the stone.
The Stone, is everybody's, it's nobody's, well, except Bob Kamps, he thinks it belongs to him.
now. for those of you who were wondering what a troll is, the best ones, are true : )
Ed
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 29, 2007 - 06:28pm PT
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For sure, Philo, that Ament guy is a keeper!
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 29, 2007 - 09:16pm PT
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Eldo Prancers....
ROTFLMAO!
Stay, Pat - I'm much enjoyed reading your posts.
As for Kentucky - nice photos, good rep for climbing, too.
And what, pray-tell, is wrong with sleeping with your sister?!?
-Aaron from Texas
just kidding.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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Hankster-You mentioned Jim Garber upthread. I hadn’t seen him in years but ran into him bouldering at Flagstaff a couple of weeks ago. Still cranking hard and still as smooth and deliberate as any climber I’ve seen. Demonstrated the Garber static version of the rarely done Gill Swing on Smith Overhang. Remarkable pull for an oldster… and especially because he’s a Coloradan. Must be an exception to Walling’s Rule.
The mention of the first organized climbing competitions started by Jello reminded me that when the tour came through Boulder in the 80’s, it was the last time I ever saw John Yablonski. He was working as a rigger or something. I hadn’t seen him for years and he was really affable and engaging, not a trace of the mocking, sneering aspect that Yabo sometimes presented. John had a competitive side like anyone else and he challenged me to try the top rope, speed climbing course against him. We started up and I thought I was moving pretty well. But he effortlessly got yards ahead of me, then waited for me about ten feet below the top. When I finally reached him and then passed him, he let loose a huge dynamic and beat me by a hand’s length to the finishing hold. Good memory, that.
About the time that Edlinger had that impressive win at that first Snowbird competition, I remember Largo speaking dismissively to one of the young, US competitors.
“Hoo mahn. We were the top dogs back in my day. How could you let THE FROGS get the upper hand?"
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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No kidding Ricky, Garber is the king of smooth; last time I saw him doing that, I thought:
"Wow, that's the best in style which we used to try to emulate; almost an anachronism now".
There were huge rivalries with the French back then and Edlinger was really something/somebody special.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Rick A...I think the first organized climbing comps in the US have to go to Harvey Carter. His Master of Sport climbing comps in the late 60's were somewhat of joke to most climbers...of course he won the comp and crown himself king.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Pretty funny that one Bob!
Not a regional rivalry, but on the note of climbing comp thread drift:
During those Lowe comps there was a terrific rivalry between Alison Osius & Bobbi Bensman. This was a truly respectful competitive rivalry of pure sport and the performances were spectacular.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Great thread.
Yo Tarbuster, isn't there a story about Christian Griffith showing you around the flagstaff bouldering circuit?
and what's with the West side story quote? You must be really secure with your sexuality.
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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West Side Story was based on one of the greatest of rivalries:
That of the Montagues & Capulets
(A pair of star-cross'd lovers were summarily ensnaired, but that's just fall out...)
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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great but what about the CG bouldering story?
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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No rivalry there Prod.
Just Christian giving me the first rate first blush tour and I had a good day hoppin' on that train.
Before we went up to the boulders I scarfed a terrific bowl of spinach.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Hoh Man:
Caylor I just read your R&I story.
Great stuff.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Hey Sewellymon,
As I remember the story, Tar and CG's day of bouldering was much the same as the story you're telling. I even think I remember hearing about Roy onsiting some problem that CG failed to send. Although I am pretty sure there was no anomosity between the 2.
Prod.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Hank...I did Fire and Ice the day (1981 or 82) that Jerry did the Genesis. I remember Chris Gore taking some wicked wipper and Jerry making quick work of it that day.
Roy...quite impressive if you did burn off CG bouldering around Flagstaff...he has that place wired!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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You guys are gen'rous and all, but I think that tale is looking more like Pinnochio's nose.
Hey Bob D,
Whutabout some 70's pics of yours to float that Whitehorse & Cathedral thread s'more?
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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hum,
Not the story I recall a bright eyed grinning "Roy boy" telling many many moons ago. you just being modest? Come on lay it out there...
Prod.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Thanks to those many friends who have said such remarkable and kind things to me and/or sent me emails asking me to stick around. I sometimes wish I were someone else and didn't carry some of the dark burdens of my soul. I tell people that when things start to get dark I tend to move toward the light, and sometimes that means away. I have to admit, though, I admire so many people here it's good to hear what they say and think.
Make no mistake about it, I am not a climber. I have a vague memory of someone called Pat Ament who was a fit athlete many many years ago, many decades, actually. And I have even a clearer memory of some unusual and beautiful faces, such as Barry Bates and Tom Higgins and Chuck Pratt... and some of those who seem to be here in these boxes we type into. I know I lived back then, in that world long ago of climbing. I know I was very much alive in that bright sun and even in some of those dark off-widths. I think I may have been a very good boulderer in my day and may have pushed a few standards in free climbing for a few years, but all that experience, riding to and from California on freight trains (did I love California or not?), all that is only now in my heart and soul, in those mysterious, mystical realms that comprise some deep part of me, some multi-dimensional memory of serendipitous times, of life I tried to live well but didn't always. It always was rich, however, in spite of the many mistakes.
I think that's what connects these various friends here, not so much the rivalries but rather what brought us together within each other's dreams. Now and then (when I am able to sleep) I wake up in a cold sweat, or a hot one, reaching for some hold that might be too small for me, or I am reaching for one of those people I felt were my friends.
Now, of course, all those holds are too small...
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jstan
climber
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Riding the freights must have been exciting. You must have a few stories about them.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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"within each other's dreams."
Thank you, Pat, for those great words! We are also in each other's waking.
The past couple of years I've been often living in the place of some other universal words by another warrior/poet:
"Cast me not off in the time of old age. Forsake me not when my strength faileth."
Ps.71:9
G. Bruce Adams
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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John, I could write a book on my frieght train experiences. The subject seems always now to crop up in the songs I write and record. I was fascinated with that culture of people who lived along the edges of society, who moved from city to city by freight, who didn't fit into the regular world. I had many good conversations with men who were pretty well beaten up by life, whose last hope was an unopened bottle of wine they cherished, savoring for a special day, maybe the end of the world, as they sat in the weeds, sunburned in afternoon, near the track...
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Bruce, are you the same Bruce Adams I knew in Boulder years ago?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Oli wrote, "Are you the same Bruce Adams ..?"
I'm sorry Pat, I should have realized you were a sitting duck for identity theft confusions, since I should have realized you must have known the Colorado "imposter Bruce Adams" (staying with our Regional party-Rivalry theme).
I'll try to be brief but maybe if I come clean here, I'll prevent other confusions and also will lessen the pain of other Coloradoans (Coloradoans?) who might be upset to imagine a stinking Southern Californian has stolen the moniker of an Eldo Seventies Activist, perhaps meaning to cheat his way into becoming a Prancer himself!
In the mid & late seventies I was climbing often with Tobin Sorenson, who told me about the "Colorado Bruce Adams," with whom he had climbed a new route (or freed?) the Diamond in earlier years.
(I had met Tobin and some of the original Stonemasters at Suicide Rock and in the Valley as early as '72 and loved them all instantly. But I am from Poway, at the foot of Mt. Woodson, near San Diego. It might be helpful to think of San Diego in the eyes of some other California climbers as another "nothing place," "a peripheral orbit" compared to those lofty walls of...
Rube-e-doux!!!!!!!! )
Once, Tobin and I tried to hop a freight to Colorado but settled on thummin'. But I've done plenty of train hoppin'. Been savin' this here bottle to drink with Pat Ament and other ST's
I finally met Bruce's brother Pat, while at the big Edlinger- Victory Snowbird comp. Great guy and climber!
And finally, only last year, about thirty-one years after Tobin declared I needed to meet the other Bruce, I did, in fact, meet the bona fide "Colorado Bruce Adams," poser that he is. ( Just kidding --he seemed sewelle and an enthusiastic climber still.)
Now check out this phenomenological event: The reason I ultimately was able to meet him was that he actually moved here to MY present home town, Redmond, Oregon, last year. Of course, I met him at Smith Rock. Does this seem normal to you? Does this seem odd, even a little bit?
Are there any lengths that a Coloradan will not go to in order to cast confusion and to bolster bravera?!
Wouldn't you know it?! Somehow a "hero" photo of the Imposter Bruce Adams found its way into a prominent location in a Seattle Newspaper while he was working a popular 5.12 route at Smith. I started receiving phone calls from Seattle, congratulating me for getting in the newspaper!
The real Bruce Adams has struck hero poses many, I assure you, many times here at Smith, and miraculously has still not (yet) had his photo published in even the weekly, "Redmond Spokesman," not even next to photos of the winning Sows from the very stiff County Fair 4H comps.
The Colorado Bruce Adams has a half ton of curly hair on his head, hell in a helmet, yet useful for bivvys.
The head of California Bruce Adams is symmetrical and purely unpolluted with hair.
The "other" Bruce Adams is too tall.
Do you remember our dear mystery friend, snyd?! After the shameless Old Kentucky plug, he e mailed me to say thank you for calming him a bit! I had no idea just who he was but he said that I was "even tempered, as ALWAYS," and that there were new routes in Kentucky waiting for my RETURN visit to the crags ( which I've never visited.) I was dumbfounded and made plans to call my doctor and I was half expecting to see him sign out as "Darryl and his brother, Darryl!"
Instead we clarified things and discussed the intimidating presence of Poisenous plants among the Lincoln, Boon and Crocket footprints there in the river canyons. And he learned about my parents and relatives throughout Tennessee and Kentucky! (Please spectators, control yourselves with the inbreeding comments bourne of festering suppressions.) How can you not love SuperTopo?
You were a huge inspiration to me Pat, in my youth, as I contemplated my possibilities as a teen-aged climber. I hope to thank you in person before long.
So to you I extend on behalf of my region, the sacred Poway Climbers greeting and adieu, "EEE-ONK-EEE,"
Bruce bonna fide, El Bruno, "Boulder Climber from Redmond"
ps I don't know if Colorado Bruce is still in Redmond. He told me he works in Alaska, piloting, in the warmer months.
I am certain, now that I have made everything so colorouslyplain, that it is all now perfectly clear.
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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I have to say that I find this "Bruce Adams vs Bruce Adams" rivalry utterly fascinating. To see this self battle manifest itself in cyberink is certainly in the forefront of psychology today as us psychologist say. So it seems Bruce Adams has run into himself! Well that says alot to us psychologist type! Now let me guess, if Bruce Adams was to have a run in with Bruce Adams, would not Bruce Adams be the victor? Very revealing. This is a professional term. What it means is that Bruce Adams is quite frankly a hopeless nut who needs help if it is not already too late. I urge all the Bruce Adams to please seek professional help before he [they] multiplies.
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WBraun
climber
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I thought Bruce Adams was Batman?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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That would be Bruce Wayne, Werner, my uncle from Memphis.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Say Werner, the first time I met you, you were sliding down the far right watercrack on Lembert Dome at a 150 mph, ropeless. 1970?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Bruce Wayne / Adam West
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Holy catwoman, I'm confused. When you're a jet...
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Phantom, Thou indeed doest hover as a vapor of X.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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beeep. times up.
For those of you who do not know, Phantom X is my brother, Kinley (Adams, not Wayne.) We are kind of like the Lowe brothers, only way more accomplished.
Bruce
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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I do not normaly do psychoanalysis on a forum however Bruce Adams is in dire need of help. Mr. Adams, this brother of your's, would he be the Colorado Phantom X or the California Phantom X? [We smartypants psychologist ask these questions to determine what lies rooted in the patients maladjusted head, it is very similar to what a layman would call "prying"]. Another question Mr. Adams, what size net do you require? Many of our institutions [farms] offer outdoor activities as well as delicous meals and visiting hours and even a six foot rabbit! I think any Bruce Adams would feel much more comfortable in such an environment.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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I'm sorry Doctor, please increase my dosage. Now lets get back to the regional discussion or I might have a breakdown. B. Rabbitlover
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
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Bruce- Thanks for the great post and clearing that up once and for all. Even though I have known you since the early 70's,I have to admit that I thought you had done the FFA of Pervertical Sanctuary on the Diamond with Tobin. Nevertheless, to me you will always be the true Bruce Adams...
Here is a picture illustrating detente in the California/Colorado, as well as the generational, rivalry! Pat Ament providing a friendly spot to John Bachar on some high-ball near Estes Park in 1978.
Can we have a moment for a group cyber-hug now, everyone? Come on, gather round, even you prancers!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Rick-Good job digging up that great Mastersof Stone action shot and all the interdependence and reaching symbolism.
I'm a little embarassed to have exegeted my name so exhaustively, but it seemed to be the moment.
Don't be too disappointed: I did one of best leads in the Seventies on the Diamond, the black dagger wide crack, in the rain and snow. Had to do it cuz I'm from Woodson. It snows all the time at Mt. Woodson.
Happy fourth. "Give me liberty or give me death." P.Henry
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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&hug&. Been an interesting ride Mr. A...I'll keep flingin'.
All this "provincial" talk when clearly the strongest (Americans) I've seen hail from north Georgia...
BHS (Bass High School) alumnus...
v9 in '59... go blue wave!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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426...the best slap down yet!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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JOe Ja goober guts!
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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I didn't feel slapped down, because I haven't been able to even understand what anyone has been saying the last number of entries.
But, Rick, that shot of me spotting Bachar. I don't even remember that. I do remember I was (in all immodesty) the best spotter on the planet, though, for a few years. I had worked hard catching people flying off high bar in the gymnastics room when I was on the Colorado University gymnastics team. One guy (when I was NOT spotting) went right through a window and down a floor to the ground. Anyway, Beth Bennet, Christian Griffith, and all sorts of climbers would call me up -- not to go bouldering with them but -- to come along and spot them on some new high up thing they had been thinking about. They knew I was the best spotter they would be able to find. I was good at catching people and stopping/breaking falls in just the right way. It was nice to be of some use, among the new generation of all stars.
On the other hand, my own spotters were notoriously awful. At age 14, I remember attempting Pratt's Overhang on Flagstaff, with Dalke spotting, and it was pitch dark (we often climbed long after the sun went down). I made the last hard move, and he walked away, at which moment I must have lost my balance in the dark and found myself lying flat on my back on the ground. I tried to say, "Nice catch" but could only gasp for air. In 1968, at Fort Collins, when I first climbed with Gill, I was in a hurry and made an impatient reach at the top of one of those boulders. Gill was supposed to be spotting me, and I landed on my tailbone on a knife-edge talus boulder. Gill said, "Oh, are you hurt?" As if he couldn't tell by my eyes bugging out of my head. The pain was too wicked to describe here... I began never to trust any of my own spotters, but I resolved to be the best spotter I could be. I would squash Katy Brown if I fell on her.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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When you're a Jet,
You're a Jet all the way,
from your first cigarette,
to your last dyin' day!
West Side Story (same as it ever was, prancers or whomever)
-music: Leonard Bernstein
-lyrics: Stephen Sondheim
-choreography: Jerome Robbins
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pat wrote: I didn't feel slapped down, because I haven't been able to even understand what anyone has been saying the last number of entries.
Pat...My using the words "slap down" is a pure figure of speech.
Gill doing a V9 in 1959 just about say it all.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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...like, I'm pretty sure this guy is Batso:
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sandy haired guy three to the right looks suspiciously like Werner.
Oh yeah, the Pervertical Sanctuary hasn't been freed. Only the upper half.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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The one to his left IS Dano.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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I can tell you without a doubt that the person in the middle to whom the arrow points is David Breashears, and I rarely make mistakes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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hahaha!
you got me there Oli...
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Dano was also Rudy in the Disney film "Third Man On The Mountain", a most excellent example of regional rivalries.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dano rules! and books!
You got me to spit ice tea on my screen, Oli.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Man, I'm worth something after all!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ready to Rumble:
-from CLIMB!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The Kloeberdanz Kid!!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Too funny!
I thought "and I ran away with Erickson's girl friend and rode the freights to Colorado. I had never made love on a train before." was a pretty funny digressions, and then I read the rest of it! What a great slice of the soap opera we call, "The CLimbers' Life"
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oh yeah, what I originally was going to ask; Do the Stobylisti have and known regional rivals? sort of hard to imagine.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Doesn't look at all like Dave Breashears illusiondweller.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Thanks, Caylor, you are a good man. I have too many such stories in my bizarre life. I fear I would offend some who are in the stories... But I will start thinking of others.
Have I already told the story of when I dressed up as a woman in Yosemite, as a practical joke Higgins and I played on his pilot friend who was hoping to find a date? That one...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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No Pat,
You have not, roll it out please!
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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It's a fine line betweena charmed life and a bizarre life.
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WBraun
climber
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Great stories Pat.
You ride the freight trains to Colorado and me a Kauk rode the freight trains from Colorado to California.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Well I hope I wasn't talking about anything obscene, or in the case of this last story anything perverted at all, rather just relating a story about Higgins and me, and some clean cut play and how nutty those times were... I think most of us have progressed quite a distance since then, but we can look back, right, and chuckle? But you wonder why I wasn't right in the thick of any rivalry per se. I was too busy getting into trouble.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Werner, did you really ride the freights with Kauk to Colorado? I'd like to hear about that adventure.
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illusiondweller
Boulder climber
San Diego, CA
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And, one night, at band camp........
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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One moment someone tells me to post up some more stories. The next moment someone tells me to shut up. I can't always promise the best story. Perhaps they should be rated and approved first.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Pat, please don't listen to any of your detractors. The stories are great fun, and well told. I for one am enjoying all your posts (climbing related or not!) I started climbing in the late '80's, one or two generations after you, but your imprint was visible then.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Just keep goin' with those stories and don't look back Oli.
We're right here enjoying the read.
Great stuff.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yee-Haw!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pat & Werner...great stories. I hopped trains back in Philly that were going south. I talked my friend Jackie into doing it several times. We made it pass Balitmore a few times. We had to be back for dinner...we were fourteen at the time.
Pat...just read your full interview on climbing.com...maybe one of the all time best.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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This is why the staco rules, where else do you get this kind (Werner/Ament) of witness?
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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That's a great story, Werner, and well told. You were a real mentor to Ron. My first freight ride was from Fresno to Colorado. Probably everyone has heard the story too many times. I tend to forget what I've already told, and so I say it all again.
The big four went up onto the North America Wall (1964, fall), and I should have been the 4th on that team, were Chouinard not to have shown, but Chouinard did finally turn up and had more tenure at the time, so I left the Valley, a bit hurt, and with Rick Horn hitched with a race car driver who scared us out of a few years life, speeding down to Fresno. At the Fresno yards, under starlight, waiting for a train, we ran into Wil Noel, an old black guy in a suit with no shoes. He asked which way to Chinatown. We pointed both north and south, since there is a Chinatown in LA and also San Francisco. He said some guys had jumped him and beaten the hell out of him. They had smashed his hands against the track. He showed me his badly broken hands. They stole his shoes so he would chase them. They stole his white Stetsin hat. Anyway, he and I struck up a conversation. It was more him talking. "I have a Christmas name N O E L, Wilbur Noel," he said. When he was in the Navy, he told me, he had actually spoken with the President, JFK. "Wilbur," the President said... And then he told me I was the only person in his life who had ever listened to him and that I was his best friend. The whole while he was holding my right hand with his left (in a kind of endless handshake) with the bones of his hand jutting into my hand. He kept saying, "May the Lord strike me with lightning if I is lyin'." And I would take a step back, just in case, but he said he wanted to look me up when he got to Colorado. Rick hadn't said a word this whole time. Wilbur found a piece of cinder, like charcoal, and an old discarded paper cup, and wrote my address on it. Then he wandered off in the dark. I often think of him. I was impressionable, at 17. A yardsman told us of a train heading north, but it would take us to the next yard in Roseville where we could catch a train over the Sierra east, over Donner Pass, and into the desert of Nevada and more. We caught the first train out of Fresno and rode all night slowly to Roseville. The train out of Roseville was moving fast already. The sun was coming up slow, but here I was doing a mantel onto a moving flatcar with a heavy pack, my feet nearly brushing the wheels...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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No kidding Jaybro,
This is so fun, you and I and lots others who post up like to read:
This is like sitting down in the middle of a novel while the words are woven around us.
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WBraun
climber
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Pat
Those were the daze my friend ...
Believe it or knott. Fresno has a Chinatown, and maybe Noel was referring to that?. It's actually Fresno's skid row.
Wil Noel sounds like a good man. There are many like this on the skid row.
So after getting on the freight train, our car actually was a new vehicle transport train car. I don't remember what make vehicles were on it and they were locked. Bummer, as we would have gotten in one.
The freight trains are LOUD! They are so loud that they will give one the most wicked headache. Bring ear protection and lots of water in the summer. Also in the long tunnels bring oxygen, as you'll soon find yourself choking out your life force. Cough, cough, choke
So Kauk asks me "is this train going to California as we ride into the sunset. "Ron, these tracks go west and west is Calif. so relax man". "And look over there, ... is I-80"
I go to sleep and Ron wakes me and hour later and tells me he can't see I-80 anymore. I tell him not to worry as it's not going to perfectly parallel the interstate all the way. Back to sleep I go.
Later in the deep night Ron wakes me again. Bright lights everywhere, train had stopped and he asks me where we are now.
Eureka! I told him we are now in the Salt Lake city yard and we better get off before the train security show up. Off we go and finally out of the yard Ron spies a car and the license plates say Idaho. I told him that's a visitor from out of state.
Little later ..... Ron says, "How come all the vehicles have Idaho plates?" Hahahaha
Sh'it, Where in the fuk are we now? Plus it's like 2 in the morning and no one around. We get into town and find this open all night classic grease grill coffee shop with all these old timer farmer types in there and waitress has the beehive hairdoo.
We poke in there and ask Mrs. Beehive what town is this?
Pocatello Idaho came the reply ...... hahahaha
Oh Sh'it! and way off topic!
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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This must be the place- best stories ever
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Once when I went out by freight train to California to see another girl who lived in Berkeley, I visited my friend Mort Hempel who was going through his serious troubles with the effects of acid, and he must have been spooked when I showed up at his door with my face covered in black train soot. Anyway, when I had to return, Mort and my girl friend drove me to Stockton, where I could best get my train home. I can't right at this moment remember if it was this time, but in Stockton I met a fellow who sat with me along the track for a while. He had a little white dog named Skinner. The fellow collected scrap metal and sold it for a few pennies per pound. I thought of the pitons in my pack. I had something like twelve dollars to my name and gave him six. He was eternally grateful. All alone through those million miles of Utah and Nevada desert. For the last hundred miles into Salt Lake, before dawn, I was on what's called a flat-wheeler. The car bounced up and down so hard, that as I lay there trying to sleep my body flew repeatedly up and down, about a foot off the floor of the car, bang bang bang, until my bones were nearly rattled free of my body. If I tried to do that now I would simply die. Going through the 9 mile (or however long it is) Moffat Tunnel, underneath the Continental Divide, you have to hold your sleeping back out in the wind first and get it filled with air, then crawl in and hold the opening shut tight, and hold your breath as long as possible, then start breathing slowly, using up as little of the precious air as possible... or breathe the thick black smoke in the tunnel. Finally they put some blowers in there, and it's still bad but much better. Always the best part of this familiar trip was to come through that last tunnel and see the Yellow Spur sticking up against the eastern plain...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thank you! Fiery gems, sparkling and brightening all around them.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2007 - 10:26am PT
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Really fine tales, guys.
Reminds me of the refrain from the old Roger Miller tune,
“ I’m a man of means by no means,
The King of the Road…”
If anyone wants to get a feel for what Pat describes, the stretch of track from Eldorado Canyon through the Moffat tunnel to Winter Park is a beautiful train ride,that includes passage through canyons that are inaccessible by road. There is a train that runs from Union Station in Denver to Winter Park ski resort in the ski season. I have taken it several times and I always think of Pat when it comes around the corner high above the south side of Eldorado Canyon and later, when it pulls into the Moffat Tunnel beneath the Continental Divide. Being in that pitch black tunnel choking on thick diesel smoke must have been a very long and terrifying ten minutes. It's much more comfortable from the inside of the rail car.
This site has some pictures of the route: http://www.skitrain.com/
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I can't get this image of a strangely alluring climber chick named Oli-via chasing down a freight train in a dress and high heel EBs out of my mind.
Do I need counseling?
Or am I already out of my mind?
Fabulous stories and the best thread drift of all time.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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You're confusing the two entries. I dressed up on Halloween in Yosemite, as a prank date for Higgins' friend. And then later I rode freight trains. By the time of the freights I was back to my old self.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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These are great stories, I look forward to more.
Those trains, do people still ride them? Or have they found ways to make it more difficult now?
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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I have deleted a couple of my entries, because apparently I offended someone. That has never been my intent.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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"...When we sent our boys out (Bachar, Long, McClenahan), they devoured local testpieces all over the country whilst living in a Toyota Corolla and eating nothing more than rice cakes and local egos. Them boys could pull on any terrain, at a top notch standard, and had zero need for a potato in their pants or any other shenanigans..."
Yeah, I remember Gill telling me about how "our boys" blew away the CO bouldering standards on their Pumping Sandstone tour. Hahahahahahaha.
Curt
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Knock it off Curt.
I want my day in the sun, even if it exists only as a jibe, as a sham association concocted by Russ Walling.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 10, 2007 - 12:13am PT
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Never hopped a train, but I laid between the tracks and let a train going about 50 miles an hour drive over me. If you think they are loud riding on top, just try the underside. My ears were ringing for days. It was a very terrifying experience, not one I would repeat. I didn't think up this stunt, I read about it in "The Painted Bird", by the late Jerzy Kosinski. It is cast as a work of fiction, but many believe it to be semi-autobiographical. I highly recommend it.
Michael
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:34am PT
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i jumped freights pretty regular under the watchful eye of one howard "twilly" cannon, surely one of the most amazing humans to ever inhabit the planet.
one of the highlights of my time on earth was catching a burlington-northern freight from seattle to leavenworth. as the train slowed to pass through l-town, we tossed off our packs and jumped out. it was me, twilly, kim (my girl of the time), and steve mascioli, who died a few years back, as some of you know, on moonflower buttress.
on impact, we all did a couple of hard rolls and were on our feet. a true bindlestiff at that time in my life, i had my shoes, a rack, and a 6' X 6' hunk of pile fabric to sleep in, a relic rescued from the cutting-room floor of off white's 1981 rock-and-roll pile jacket sweatshop.
it was a full moon night, around 2 a.m., and we were in the middle of an apple orchard that was in full spring bloom. it was so bright out there you could have read a newspaper. the instant karma transition of going from the ear-splitting and bone-shaking cage of the boxcar to the absolute stillness of the sea of apple blossoms wet with dew on a late spring night was one of the defining experiences of my life. utterly sublime, utterly surreal, the sort of experience on has to lean down to the earth and give thanks for. i can still remember it like it was yesterday. how can the memory be so vivid? it was 26 years ago.
god, we age.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 10, 2007 - 02:40am PT
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Truly beautiful memory, Bob.
-NostalgicJello
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 10, 2007 - 10:21am PT
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Yes, real nice Bob.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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You talkin' teh me girl?
I dunno nuttin'...
Roy
OK, um...
Rivalries? Nah, we're all pretty chill anymore...
'Cept maybe a portion of the SD community vs an open source stance on info for Canyon Tajo. That's been a mix of reasonable protectionism and xenophobic lust for some time now.
Then there's DR F and the whole Figures on a Landscape FA closet/skeleton Vogel deal, pretty well settled, except for the mythical notion held by many true believers of an early boltless ascent by Cox & Yablonski.
And Dean Potter vs The World, but that's moldy news.
And she who shall not be named vs most of Supertopo, but that ain't climbing, yet it is good rivalry on the out-skirts of town.
Oh, and The Doctor vs some dinks on Mountain Proj.
And me & Russ vs Mike Waugh on the Tonic Boom Box Licker Battle Chassis rap bolting dust up, although old, I am proud to say Waugh still wants to kick my asss.
But more of late, GGnome vs L was some purdy hot shite sparring, if you like watching a 90lb chick rip the heart out of a 90lb slab climber.
I'm pretty sure some of those Colorado Springs boys still don't want nothin' to do with us Boulder types squattin' down on their turf.
And the Slopers (west side Rockies fellas) ain't passin' the olive branch to us Dopers (front range Freaks), least not since our Young Guns been rippin' it up in The Black for the last 10-15.
Then there's me slaggin' E for hangdoggin, while I tossed a can into the trash, tellin' Cilley to go dig it out fer a nickel, followed by Dick's infamous retort: "Some day Roy, you'll be down and when ya are I'll be there to kick dirt down your throat". Haha. I still busted 'im down on numerous boulder problems after that, so I'm quite sure I still gotta watch my back.
So yeah, from where I sit, Rivalry is pretty slack.
Although if you look at histr'y, Hot Henry vs The World, Kim Carrigan vs The Valley Boys, & Christian "Verve" Griffith vs the Trad cognescenti (Wilford et al) still sends a few ripples out now and again...
Last but not least, there's me vs the keyboard, ...dang that hurt.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 17, 2007 - 11:28pm PT
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Bump.
I don't usually "do" conflict,
But since it's Ricky's thread & stuff...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Dec 17, 2007 - 11:28pm PT
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Eldoprancers™™™ Vs. the World!!!!!!!!111
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 17, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
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Can greenies jam, now?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Dec 17, 2007 - 11:43pm PT
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Rivalries? Nah, we're all pretty chill anymore...
'Cept maybe ....
Now that was fun reading.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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Can we get some more regional climbing rivalries?
C'mon kids, these are fun, in a grade school sorta way.
I got popcorn goin'...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 31, 2008 - 11:20am PT
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Within the state of New Hampshire,was there any rivalry from area to area for the most difficult or scary routes when they went up?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 31, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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You gotta figure Surrete's Liquid Sky tactics raised some eyebrows, that would likely be intra-regional as you suggested.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Jan 31, 2008 - 12:28pm PT
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Front Range candyasses vs. Western Slope inbreeds
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 31, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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Yeah, back in the mid to late 70's us Gunnysuckers used to get po'd when every copy of Mountain or Climbing had new routes in the Black put up by the Front Rangers. We used to joke that Bryan B., Earl W., Leonard C. (to name a few) climbed with stamped envelopes in their back pockets. After the communities and climbers started to mix, and we both found out what a bunch of crazy, loaded, kindred spirits we were, the animosity decreased. - We both realized that we'd been walking a mile in each other's shoes for years!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The rivalry thing is mostly good old fashion ripping and only works to best humorous outcome if you have some local advantage. Those of us that ate bean burritos as a staple developed some simple but effective techniques for keeping the whole affair from deconstructing despite a generous payload. As a matter of pride and entrapment, we would dispense with plates at parties and wait to see how many visiting dignitaries would try to follow suit! The humor would come roaring in as the burrito turned catastrophic! Despite the victim's most earnest efforts at remaining nonchalant, they would inevitably be reduced to a slurping fool!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2008 - 11:16am PT
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Steve,
I recently had a visit from my friend John Jurashek, aka JJ. He told me fascinating tales of the climbing scene in Arizona back in the 70’s’ involving you, and others. Heard stories of hard climbing, outrageous parties, and the ultimate honor, the crowning of the “Bean King.” This important history is long overdue for a separate thread, and you are the man to start it, Steve.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Getting "Beaned"...
Now that was enough to keep me away from you hippie'zonans...
I draw my line in the sand!!!
Hooo-Haaaw.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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the best beanfest story i ever heard involved a brit who took mushrooms for the first time, threw all his clothes and his passport into the bonfire, then locked himself in todd skinner's van and proceeded to trash it....anyone who was there care to tell that story first hand?
and then there was the traditional stunt of trying to get as many people on top of a huge 20' boulder right in camp, using very sketchy techniques...in '85 i was up there and the whole crowd of us (about 20 -25 people) lost balance and almost went over the side...oe of the scariest moments of my climbing life!
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Bob Van Belle!
Do ya remember the slightly overweight brit, who after pounding a slew of beers proceeded to flash routes like Butterballs, Hotline and several other test-pieces in the early 80's?
I forget the fellers name, but he did freak some of us Californians out a bit with his mellow, non-egotistical attitude and out of shape looking body as he onsighted many of our test-pieces with ease.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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JJ- now there is a man with a nose for adventure! One of Tucson's finest.
The Englishman's Night! Remember it well. Have to think twice about spinning that yarn though I reckon the continental in question never wandered down that dark alley again.... or did he?!?
The call to risk it all upon the pebble of tradition begins with a slow but rising chant, "We have a Problem, We need People!"
And Roy- there's a Beanfest in your future!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 13, 2008 - 02:39am PT
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bump
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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Bump to git them other suckas!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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Bump for water looooooong under the bridge!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 13, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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Bump for bar-fights!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 13, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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and bar flies....
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 13, 2011 - 05:20am PT
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and just plain bar f.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Mar 14, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
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Bump because I'm enjoying reading this thread and it deserves to be towards the top.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Dec 16, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Speaking of regional rivalries, I think that this infamous picture that Chris Mac just posted on the Stonemasters picture thread, shows the the "toasted" Cali boys in the canyon of their rival Eldo Prancers.
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TFPU
Sport climber
Idaho
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Dec 16, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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The Bay Area vs. the rest of California.
I have non-climbing friends that ask me why the Bay Area is the climbing police! Haha non-climbers even recognize that!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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Good one Ydpl8s. They "Pranced". Oh how they pranced.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 23, 2015 - 06:08am PT
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I CA and the Beta Fund perhaps?
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| Messages 1 - 235 of total 235 in this topic |
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