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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 11, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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everytime i think it couldnt get worse, it does.
Al-Qaida targets Iraqi infrastructure
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AozrZPROxxZ0qQp9PccjjmnMWM0F
most people that have a clue realize that to "win" even if it is possible, would take a huge increase in troops. try 10 times what we got.
the surge, is a bad joke on everyone and the white house and military leaders are failing us.
hell,all the politicians are failing us.
my concern is that if things get worse a "draft" may be the only way to increase the size of the military. i have a 16 year old and i sure as hell dont want him to be fighting in a war that was created on lies.
do you guys think a draft is even possible?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:28pm PT
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Nope.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:32pm PT
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at this rate anything is possible.
The thing with the draft is - if it happens it pretty much means the idiots that started this war on a bunch of lies will be at their last straw. The entire house of cards will come tumbling down on them. In a certain way I hope there is a draft (I don't really - but I think it would speak volumes about how bad things have gotten for shrub and his puppet masters). Nothing else seems to be waking up the Americans that believe we should be over in the ME trying to control thing - maybe threatening to take their sons and daughters away would do the trick (I doubt it - ignorance is a tough thing to combat, as is denial).
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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There isn't going to be a draft so y'all can stop worrying about it.
You heard it here first.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
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i am in favor of cumpolsory service
let those who support the war opt in for military service, and let the others (and the gays, i guess, since they don't get to fight in the army) opt for domestic service or peace corps type service.
sure would be easy to see who in DC was unwilling to back their tough talk w/ the lives of their young virgin kiddies!
edit for chaz-
course not, cause that would mean we are losing or something...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
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I offerred a prediction among my circle of friends back when we invaded Iraq, many of whom were ardent supporters of the war and of course some were not. I said that this looked to me like a policy designed from the beginning to paint us in a box. There are two ways out. Use nukes, or institute a draft. Which will it be...?
Bush has said publicly that he intends to deal with Iran before the end of his term. Iran has said in response that they will start a war throughout the region if we bomb their nuclear sites.
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dr_feelgood
Trad climber
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Jun 11, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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Three of my close friends are being 'back door' drafted. I missed it by 2 months to the day.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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The draft is already happening. Here's the recipie:
1. Start a war
2. Send all our troops over there
3. Trash the economy
4. Send our jobs overseas
5. Oops! The only jobs left are in the military
WhoooHoooo! Now we have an all-voluntary army. Forget that it's the only thing left to do. Don't call in the "poverty draft" call it the best all-volunteer army in the world.
Perfect.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:09pm PT
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Perfect, except four of your five points exist only in your imagination.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:11pm PT
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Well maybe five for five
Dr. maybe you didn't read the contract when you signed it.
My kid did.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:16pm PT
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I'm personally in favor of the following:
The president gets to deploy two sets of 25k troops for six months to any two different conflicts at his discretion. The day they want one more body or one more day, they have to ask congress for a formal declaration of war. On the day that declaration of war is signed, the following occurs until and armistice is signed or the declaration is annulled or withdrawn:
1) All prices are frozen.
2) A 10% national war sales tax on all property, goods, and services goes into effect.
3) A no-exemption draft goes into effect.
These three measures alone would keep us from going to war lightly and would end them swiftly.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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"Perfect, except four of your five points exist only in your imagination."
uh...would you care to expand on this? What do you mean?
1. We did start a war.
2. Maybe not all but a lot
3. The economy is boosted by low interest rates and fake tax rebates. ( think growing national debt )
4. jobs are going overseas. Do you doubt that?
5. what decent paying jobs can a person without much education get? most of our manufacturing has gone overseas because of globalization.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:32pm PT
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"1. Start a war"
Debatable. Hussein failing to live up to his end of the bargain he made to stop hostilities in '91 gave Bush a reason to kick his ass.
"2. Send all our troops over there"
We have about 500,000 active duty Military and about 700,000 Reserve and National Guard. About 130,000 Troops are in Iraq, not "all our troops" as stated.
"3. Trash the economy"
Economy's doing fine any way you care to measure it.
"4. Send our jobs overseas"
Far more jobs have been created here than have been *sent* "overseas".
"5. Oops! The only jobs left are in the military"
Combined number or Military jobs is 1.2 million (see above). Not even most jobs, but a very small fraction of jobs "are in the military".
On second thought, TGT's right when he says "Well maybe five for five".
And there isn't going to be a draft.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 11, 2007 - 08:53pm PT
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http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/04/12/troops_numbers/index.html
"April 12, 2005 | Three and a half years have passed since U.S. bombs started falling in Afghanistan, and ever since then, the U.S. military has been engaged in combat overseas. What most Americans are probably unaware of, however, is just how many American soldiers have been deployed. Well over 1 million U.S. troops have fought in the wars since Sept. 11, 2001, according to Pentagon data released to Salon. As of Jan. 31, 2005, the exact figure was 1,048,884, approximately one-third the number of troops ever stationed in or around Vietnam during 15 years of that conflict.
More surprising is the number of troops who have gone to war since 9/11, come back home, and then were redeployed to the battle zone. Of all the troops ever sent to Iraq or Afghanistan, one-third have gone more than once, according to the Pentagon. In the regular Army, 63 percent of the soldiers have been to war at least one time, and almost 40 percent of those soldiers have gone back. The highest rate of first-time deployments belongs to the Marine Corps Reserve: Almost 90 percent have fought."
........................................................................
I haven't verified this but it looks like you would be wrong Chaz.
You wrote,
"Debatable. Hussein failing to live up to his end of the bargain he made to stop hostilities in '91 gave Bush a reason to kick his ass"
Why does Saddam Hussien have to answer to George Bush? Our weapons inspectors found nothing. Didn't you read what they said or did you just buy what George said?
What kind of Jobs have been created here? Low paying service jobs?
What do you plan to do about the growing national debt?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
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more good news.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6743249.stm
the other way they keep troop leves down is with guns for hire and the Contractor. never before has the US used so many contractors in battle. some of it is the high tech stuff, but some of it is the ease of contracting it out....
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Draft = war protests....Not gonna' happen.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:03am PT
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Will DaftRat be renamed DraftRat?
The administration may be just deluded enough to try to institute a draft. It seems likely that their sins would then come home to roost, even if it's only months before the elections.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Chaz you are an idiot. Debatable? Come on man..if you want to argue that it "was the right thing to do" that's fine but don't cop an attitude like it wasn't a choice. If we invaded every country that wasn't living up to UN resolutions we'd NEED a draft. What disgusts me more is the people that most commonly use this argument are the same ones who scoff at the "irrelevancy" of the UN and have been working as hard as they can to nueter it for decades.
Draft isn't a political possibility unless we suffer another major terrorist attack...something probably worse than 9/11. At the current rate that probably isn't that unlikely. It all depends on how and what and where. If things continue as they are a draft would incite a domestic revolt.
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imnotclever
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:54am PT
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There's not going to be a draft. Won't happen. But that's sad. Right now wars don't require sacrifice of the general public – no change in any aspect of their daily lives. In WWII there was rationing, women had to wear panties that had cinch strings on them so the elastic could go to the war effort.
A draft would change this somewhat, the general public would have some investment in the war and the war wouldn’t be taken so lightly. And it is taken lightly – Paris and Anna Nicole top the news for as long as they did. What’s going on in Afghanistan?
Right now, after the decision to go to war was made, I don't have much reason to be vested in this war. The people who signed up to fight wars are fighting it. The taxes that my kids will be burdened with are a problem, but a lot of that money is spent now.
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Indianclimber
climber
Las Vegas
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:08am PT
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To start a draft they would first have to decide if they are going to draft women that argument alone would take years.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:20am PT
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Great post imnotclever. I totally agree.
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summerprophet
Mountain climber
Cali Via Canada
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:30am PT
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Fact:
In 2004 while Bush was publically stating that there would be no draft, talks were going on with Canada to no longer harbor future draft dodgers.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:31am PT
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This Congress will never go for it--not for this war, anyway. It would be political suicide.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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I didn't say that Lois. All I am saying is that I am 99% certain it will not happen for this war, unless something unforeseen and drastic happens.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:46am PT
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There will be no draft unless China goes to war with us. And once again, Healy makes alot of sense. Go back and read what he wrote.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:52am PT
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Lois, the Dems just won Congress largely on a pledge to reduce troop levels in Iraq. Starting a draft for a war in which most people believe we should be ending--not escalating--is the exact opposite of their pledge and a great way for them to lose Congress. Getting voters' kids killed for no good reason tends to piss them off. Even Bush and the Republicans haven't had the nerve, so far anyway, to pull the draft trigger.
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
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dirtbag,
You right about them not having the nerve, but the Republican candidates feel it's fine to consider using a "tactical" nuclear stike against Iran (during the debate this week). So, I guess the platform is bombs not bodies. Is that beyond insane or what?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
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imnotclever said In WWII there was rationing, women had to wear panties that had cinch strings on them so the elastic could go to the war effort.
you know damn well our panties would be in a bunch under those circumstances
good post BTW
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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"you know damn well our panties would be in a bunch under those circumstances"
I guess we will have to go "commando", literally
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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Injury prone,
There was a day when Republican candidates could discuss foreign policy like adults, and see the value in using carrots as well as sticks in getting what we need. Now it seems like each one of them--except for Ron Paul--wants to be the most macho, biggest bad ass poser of all. It's pretty juevenile.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:12pm PT
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For a little bit of perspective,
WW11 consumed somewhere between 32 and 44 % of GDP with most estimates in the 40% range.
Present total Defense budget is 4% of GDP or only 0.4% higher than the 20 year average.
45% of the Marine Corps has never been to a combat zone
37% of the Army likewise
53% of the USAF and 50% of the navy have never even been in theater.
Both the USAF and the Navy are pink sliping people out.
Reenlistment rates are still far higher than historical averages and highest in combat units that have been deployed.
There will be no draft.
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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dirtbag,
Right on. The downside is that it's not a movie and we live on this planet (and this planet only) with other people. If we use nukes strategically, others will too. At least until we all die of nuclear related complications.
On topic: I agree that there won't be a draft.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Lois, I'm not saying that. I'm not going to comment on or make general statements about other wars what because I only have a vague knowledge of the circumstances prompting a draft during those conflicts. All I am doing is commenting on is this war, not others.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
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LEB so much has changed since then. For starters I am pretty sure that every single war, or close to it, since the inception of this country has included a draft. It was simply how things worked and was an accepted institution in this country. When Viet Nam ended and the draft was suspended, we raised a couple generations with a completely volunteer army and with the taint of government dishonesty and power abuse following the Nixon administration. This country had never experienced the level of backlash against a war or a draft like that seen in Viet Nam. This means that to institute a draft now would require that the American people overcome an enormous amount of baggage and also let go of the idea of optional service in the military to support it. Bush probably could have gotten away with it in the fall of 2001 just like the Patriot Bill slipped through, but not at any time since. People are simply far too informed, far too skeptical and far too questioning compared to how they were in say 1940.
Probably more important is the simple fact that not a single serving military commander has publicly supported anything but a volunteer army.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:17pm PT
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No George, it's draft, not draught.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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For Lois (from Wikipedia);
The Selective Service Act (40 Stat. 76) was passed by the Congress of the United States on 18 May 1917 creating the Selective Service System. The Act gave the President the power to draft men for military service. The Selective Training and Service Act of 1940 was passed by the Congress of the United States on September 16, 1940, becoming the first peacetime conscription in United States history. The original Act was allowed to expire in 1947 because it was thought that a sufficient number of volunteers would enlist for the nation's defense.[citation needed] The number of volunteers was not enough, however, and a new draft act was passed in 1948. Between 1948 and 1967 several draft laws were enacted.
On March 25, 1975, Pres. Gerald Ford signed Proclamation 4360, Terminating Registration Procedures Under Military Selective Service Act, eliminating the registration requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens. Then on July 2, 1980, President Jimmy Carter signed Proclamation 4771, Registration Under the Military Selective Service Act, retroactively re-establishing the Selective Service registration requirement for all 18-26 year old male citizens born on or after January 1, 1960. Only men born between March 29, 1957, and December 31, 1959, were completely exempt from Selective Service registration.[1] The first registrations after Proclamation 4771 took place on Monday, July 21, 1980, for those persons born in January, February and March 1960 at U.S. Post Offices. Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays were reserved for persons born in the later quarters of the year, and registration for persons born in 1961 began the following week [2]
...because you asked about the draft. I think it's origins had alot to do with a weak military in the past because we were so isolated geographically from the threats around the world. After WW1 and especially WW2 and the Cold War we saw a need to give the government the tools to gather an army very quickly if it was needed. The peace/love movement of the 60's coupled with a controversial war kinda soured people to the effects of a draft. As stated by alot here, our current military has no need for a draft currently because of our Naval/Air superiority around the world. A large ground conflict could change that quickly i.e. China, Russia, or full-blown Mid-East war.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Lois, that is what Rumsfeld thought about Iraq.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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Rumsfeld thought he didn't need very many people to succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't know what he is up to these days. Ideally he's giving $2 blow jobs on skid row, but I'm sure he's doing something that makes a lot of $.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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"This following comment might be slightly off topic but I believe related. Whatever the Bush administration did or did not do right, there seems to be some success at thwarting another major attack. I think however much he f*#ked up in other arenas we need to give credit where credit is due. We have NOT had a significant homeland attack after 9/11 and it would appear that his administration uncovered a few. Perhaps, in part, that is what fuels him and keeps him going inspite of the plummeting pole numbers. That was, in part, on what platform he got elected so it could be argued that he is carrying forth that mandate.
It seems that, however much he f*#ked up in Iraq, he is not doing a terrible job at keeping the terrorists away from here. Two bad he mixed up his mandates so. The one has little to do with the other but somehow he comingled and conflated them into one package"
.................................................
Lois, You are making a conclusion that can't be reached from the info that we have. That we haven't had a major attack against us can't be ONLY attributed to George's policy. It could also be attributed to the fact that there were no other attacks planned. It could also be attributed to our security forces waking up to the need to work together. They had become insular. ( not that its perfect now)
America hasn't had that many terrorist attacks. Its not that easy to attack America. Our Moslem community, unlike Europe, is mostly well integrated. They don't want America to be attacked anymore then we do so it makes it difficult for terrorist of the Moslem persuasion to operate here. Before 911, most of the biggest attacks were homegrown.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:08pm PT
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It has nothing to do with being fair. It has to do with correct logic. I don't think Bush is evil. He is an incompetent man being led by others. I don't want to see him hung unless he really has done war crimes. ( hung=figure of speech, I don't beleive in capitol punishiment ) I want him out of office and now, before his incompetence gets us into a worse situation. I wouldn't leave an incompetent surgeon alone to do more surgeries and I wont leave George alone just because it is difficult to take him on.
Besides your feelings that we haven't had any attacks because of George taking the war to the terrorist, ( completely ignoring that it is our troops who are being attacked now instead ) what other good has George done?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:09pm PT
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I have to agree completely with John. If Al Qaeda has proven anything it is that they are willing to lay low and wait for a long time to hit us as hard as they can. Some people seem eager to give Georgie credit whilst they where equally eager to condemn Clinton for not preventing 9/11. Knowing this, to look at the past 5 years as "evidence" is to be horribly short-sighted. Those whom deserve credit are those who lay the groundwork to end this conflict, not those who have (theoretically) prevented a short-term attack at the expense of the larger picture.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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Once again Lois, your logic isn't very good. George didn't set up the FBI. George didn't set up the NSA. So far, from what I have seen of what we have stopped, the intel came about because of concerned citizens. That has nothing to do with George. Your logic is like Al gore saying he created the internet. George didn't create our protections, he inherited them.
Perhaps you need to turn this around. Why aren't you more willing to take a hard look at George. Why do you keep apologizing for George. The man screwed up and he lied which has led to the deaths of many people. Isn't that enought to boot him out of office. Why aren't you willing to hold him accountable? Because it is too hard?
You still haven't answered my question. What good has he done?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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LEB you could take a spoon of your own medicine when it comes to say, Al Gore. Also, niether John nor I are ranting on this subject, its pretty rationally clear to us.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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lois you are ridiculous.
and(!) you still parrot the crap on faux news, even if you don't know it.
you ask where are all the competent leaders?
you voted against them baby.
the WTC was attacked by AQ in 1993 and again in 2001.
that's 8 years, and they were cozy in afganistan during that period. should clinton have attacked them? please remember that ya'll were having fits every time he lifted a pistol, didn't want to "nation build", remember?
fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here?
how about helping them recruit everywhere, and providing a rallying call for their cause?
dontchya think the money we are spending on the war in iraq wuld also go a long way toward protecting us here?
of course if we did that, how would haliburton and exxon/shell make a profit? especially if we tried to kick the oil addiction w/ a national effort to become efficient and move to alternative fuels? curious that we've never heard about that, do you think that came up in cheney's secret energy policy meetings? cause the distribution of oil reserves in iraq did, and that was pre 9/11, not that YOU will infer anything from that fact.
you are played like a fiddle, and you just skip happily along.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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LEB, I'm sorry if amongst the shrieking anti-Gore rants regarding his environmental policy I missed you lamenting that he wasn't elected. My point was simply that get pretty worked up about that issue to be arguing for calm here, when most of the people talking with you are pretty relaxed.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:48pm PT
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How bad does a surgeon or a nurse have to get before you pull the plug on them?
Again you contribute something to George that might not be his doing.
How can you say he has done a good job with homeland security. All of the experts are complaining that there are huge holes in the system, especially in the ports. This is no different then the experts telling our government that we needed to harden the cockpit doors. But our leaders declined, because it was TOO expensive.
Too expensive right up until 9/11. In fact, up until 9/11 even Clinton was doing a good job on homeland defense, if we use your logic. I would rather have seen our government increase security at our ports and our borders then spend the money in Iraq. But now it will be TOO epensive because we have wasted so much money.
Just because we haven't been attacked doesn't mean George is doing a good job with homeland security. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. It can't be proved. At least not with your arguments because there are variables that you haven't taken into consideration. This makes for a false conclusion. Maybe they haven't found the right target. Or maybe a citizen gave them up, or maybe our FBI is doing its job. This doesn't automatically point to George as the reason.
What other good has he done?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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There are a lot of people in Iraq who have become very, very pissed off at the U.S. because of Bush's war. We in the U.S., have not paid the price for that but sooner or later, we will.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:00pm PT
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i'm not attacking your character, i'm attacking your intellect.
it would be interesting to go back and read your 1st few hundred political posts here on ST, you have never been one to think for yourself or connect any dots, and you constantly ask for long explanations of things that are easily understood by anyone w/ an internet connection and a mild level of interest.
today you are here saying that gW makes us all safe, and i am telling you that you are ridiculous; hey, at least i said you were skipping, rather than riding around on yer broom or whatever, ain't that nice of me?
don't they have knitting forums?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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Nothing more then what I have suggested in the past. Write your congressman. This will give them the ammo and the courage to not hold back. It might get them off their butts. If enough people finally say, ENOUGH, then our politicians will DO something.
Especially coming from a Rebuplican who voted for George. Its no different then a surgeon telling another surgeon that he screwed up. It carries more weight then if the janitor tells him he screwed up. Right now, as a Democrat, when I write a Republican, they consider me to be the janitor.
Your letter will carry weight, Especially If your first line is...... I am a Republican, I voted for George. I think he screwed up. Please rein him in.
Then add something like.... Please get spending under control.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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but you don't see me posting over on some knitting forum constantly asking people to explain the world to me, and then openly brushing aside any and all suggestions from that community on various books or other sources that i could edumucate myself with, wrt the subjects i am painstakingly asking them to explain to me at length, and saying that i am too busy to go do that, whilie i post on oldchicksthatknit.com all day and night, now do ya?
didn't think so.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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"..when you are not interested in what someone has to say - please DO NOT READ THEIR POSTS."
LOL...I take it then that you are interested in Matts opinion. Since you read what he says....oops...just teasing Lois.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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Matt would get his ass kicked over on the Knitting Forums.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:31pm PT
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and chaz might find someone that agrees w/ him about something
edit-
leb, many a STer has openly lamented the steady and certain spiral of any thread you become involved in, as good conversation quickly turns to tedious at best. perhaps you have not noticed this energy as you expertly turn that other cheek? but seriously, it's not as if you are that unaware, so don't pretend not to notice that many find you tiresome and irritating.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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"Matt would get his ass kicked over on the Knitting Forums"
LOL. I am sure they would love to knitt you a cute little sailor suit Chaz. So you could pretend to be a tough guy.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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So? It's 15 years old.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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TGT- that's great diatribe
what i hear is a laundry list of concrete examples in which ronnie raygun and bush sr. are/were responsible for the mess we are in now in iraq!
what you hear is a defense of bush jr. going to war w/ iraq.
isn't that funny?
EDIT-
(and this ties into the faux-news/lois angle too)
listen to the above youtube link, and then listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjyz-XaeTUo&mode=related&search=
(remember what a pompus ass the president used to be, before everything he touched turned to coal?)
and then this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjyz-XaeTUo&mode=related&search=
and of course we could go on and on, but who really believes this was anything but a big snow job? nobody, (not even lois i'll bet), thinks these guys really believed what they were telling us.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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Isn't it funny you can't read the date stamp
and that,
Algordo is about 100lb lighter.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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Great TGT. He was WRONG. Hillary was wrong. Kerry was wrong. What's your point exactly?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 07:55pm PT
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This is a pretty capable group of people here and we are addressing a question affecting the future of our nation, not to mention our personal futures. If we here in this forum cannot keep our attention focussed upon that which is important, are we not in very serious trouble?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:09pm PT
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There isn't going to be a draft.
How do I know? Because the people pushing for a draft right now aren't doing so to make a better, tougher, stronger, more effective Military. They're for a draft because they see it as a way to make a domestic political point, which is not why we have a Military.
Remember, you heard it here first.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 08:43pm PT
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so most go with no draft, aint gonna happen. i hope not.
OTOH, we are gonna continue to flounder in iraq until the next president has to get us out of that mess.
jstan, our attention span is severely limited....
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jstan
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:51pm PT
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If our attention span is limited, then we all may expect to pay a very high price. One none of us can afford. There will be regrets - aplenty.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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crowley you are such an ass!
why do you make this sh#t up?
do you think you are smarter than rush?
clinton did it too!
we never could have guessed they'd attack the WTC w/ airplanes!
the world changed on 9/11!
we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here!
gore uses electricity to run the lights in his house!
BJ! BJ!
we are not the world's police force!
BJ! BJ!
we are not in the business of nation building!
BJ! BJ!
he lied! he lied under oath! impeach!
orange alert!
she wasn't covert!
the prosecutor was overzealous, there was no underlying crime!
i don't have any recollection senator-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/14/AR2007061400809.html?nav=rss_nation
i cannot recall that-
i have searched my memory on that subject and i simply cannit remember anything about that-
we have always been at war w/ eurasia...
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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hahahahahaha...Major laughing fit Matt. :-)
That Clinton sure did suck. Or at least Monica did. Good thing we impeached him and not Bush.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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our attention span is severely limited
Hey, I'm too busy working to buy my Lincoln Navigator and my HD TV.
What's Paris Hilton up to?
and my kid needs a Play Station..
wife wants a Lexus...
Boy I really wish Congress would sort out the baseball doping stuff...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:04pm PT
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"How do I know? Because the people pushing for a draft right now aren't doing so to make a better, tougher, stronger, more effective Military. They're for a draft because they see it as a way to make a domestic political point, which is not why we have a Military.
Remember, you heard it here first. "
um.......duh. You really think support for this war would have continued for as long as it did if the armed forces were anything close demographically to the rest of the country?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
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Yeah,
They are healthier
smarter
and better educated than
the average American couch potato.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:22pm PT
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"um.......duh. You really think support for this war would have continued for as long as it did if the armed forces were anything close demographically to the rest of the country? "
if i read you correctly, you are saying that the military are lower in smarts and everthing than the rest of the country? i hope you are not saying that.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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TGT w/ his constant rah-rah hoo-ya go army chime in, thanks pal, but they are not all on your side and we are all on their side
a little discussed but widely known fact is that the US armed forces act as an engine and opportunity for those w/ few other positive options. another side effect of the misuse of the military and the reserves/ national guard is that this category of recruit will become highly reluctant, in the vein of mohammad ali (paraphrased- 'the black man has no fight w/ the yellow man')
edit- hawkeye, the way i understood that point was that there are many people of fewer than average means who enter the military. that is not to say that they are people of lower intellect or potential.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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alright, i can see the lite now...
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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thaaaaank gaaaawd aaaawlmighty
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
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Hawkeye & TGT:
No you boneheads because the impact of this war is felt by Americans more at their gas pumps than in their personal lives. It's a lot easier to support OTHER people's kids going to war. The demographics of the military are greatly skewed toward the economically, educationally and politically disadvantaged. A draft with no exceptions would pull more evenly from our society and give everyone a more equal personal and emotional investment in the decisions we make with our armed forces. That is why the people that Chaz pointed out were supporting the draft support the draft.
Except for Fatty of course. He thinks we should start a draft because 2 countries in 5 years is a gross underachievement compared to what we Americans are capable of.
P.s.- hawkeye if I read you correctly you seem to think that it is the people serving in the armed forces that decide when and how we go to war, but it isn't. They are at the service of our civilian government which in turn is at the service of the electorate.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:52pm PT
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I like so totally need another ipod.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
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Poor?
Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.................
With the addition of data for the 2004 and 2005 recruits, the quintile trends noted in the previous report are even more striking. (See Table 1.) From 2003 to 2005, the representation of the highest-income quintile rose 0.68 percentage point, from 22.17 percent to 22.85 percent. As conflict in Iraq continues, youth from wealthy areas continue to volunteer for duty despite increased risk. Additionally, over the course of these three recruit years, representation from the poorest quintile has decreased dramatically. The representation among recruits of the lowest-income quintile fell nearly a full percentage point, from 14.61 percent in 2003 to 13.66 percent in 2005.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
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heritage foundation?
not as if they have an agenda.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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The percentage may have fallen but did the actual number fall? Was the drop in % attributable to the increase in other enlistments?
Terrible business over there in that Irakannistan, real shame. Now where's my remote? I have American Idol on Tevo.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 07:52pm PT
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no sh&& hddj! i just thought the army flew over there to kick some ass and uncle GW thought it was a cool idear.
thanks for setting me straight.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:46am PT
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LEB Wrote:
"I think in Vietnam we could have won but decided to handicap the forces. Here I think here in Iraq the "conflict" is unwinable because we are smack dab in the middle of a civil conflict ........one which we enabled (although we did not create it, in the first place). We are the defacto enablers much like the person who allows the alcoholic to keep drinking and not take responsibility for his or her actions."
Lois, thinking we could have won Vietnam is just mirroring the BS of the "right" at the time. We killed literally millions of Vietnamese and you think we could have won by killing more? What did they do to us again? Forget not that we weren't there to install democracy. In fact, it was the US that stood in the way of the UN mandated election to reunify Vietnam because it was clear that both North and South supported Ho Chi Minh more than the Southern Clown.
And don't forget Ho Chi Minh was hardly a dedicated communist. He was educated in Paris and was mostly a Nationalist. He had to turn to the communists when the West decided to prop up French Colonialism and keep Vietnam under foreign dominence.
The draft was tolerated in Vietnam for awhile because it took a long time for folks to realize we had been lied to and that the war was lame. We hadn't had Nixon and Watergate yet and folks trusted to Government and didn't realize War is a racket yet.
Plus they "needed" the draft to get their numbers. The only way we've avoided a draft in Iraq is by having nearly 100,000 contractors where cooks are making 5x what a soldier makes or more.
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 09:54am PT
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g&damint crowley, quite trying to confuse LEB with the facts...
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:14am PT
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Most of the college students I encounter would do well to get a little time in the fire zone. Learn some respect for their elders.
Jeff
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:19am PT
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When Congress votes on going to war it should be required that all of their offspring of age be drafted. You can bet they will find diplomatic solutions pretty damned quick.
edit: no bum knee or boils on ass deferments.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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yeah LA,
a little hand to hand ought to help them deal with you and knock some sense into you.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:55am PT
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I thought the main goal was to catch that Osama dude that Bush doesn't concern himself with. Defeat of Al Quaeda and the Taliban were just bonus points.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 11:30am PT
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DAMN!! LEB that's one of the best summations I've read on the matter; on ST that is.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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oh wow LEB, you are really on a roll here. whooda thunk?
LEB for PREZ!
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 28, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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LEB,
Good post.
What you said probably applied to Nazi Germany as well. I'm sure the vast majority of Germans didn't think gassing people in ovens was a good thing either, but "what could they do about it?"
Probably the majority of Americans think torturing people in secret prisons is bad, but hey... what can we do about it?
I'm not pretending that I have the answer to these questions either.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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Hi Lois,
Two things.
Why do you think we could have won the war in Vietnam? ( 5.16 million dead in vietnam in 21 years )
............................................
And.....Since you are one for taking responsibility for ones choices in life does this not also apply to all Americans and does it also apply to our choice of a leader and therefore, Who is responible for America having a delusional leader?
Would that not be America itself? If this is so, then could you possibly understand that America has some work to do in raising its discernment levels? Perhaps start by understanding the divisive nature of such people as Rush Limberger and Faux news. Maybe continue by doing a little more reading and not just accepting the word of our leaders because it seems TOO HARD to do something.
You see, I don't believe we will be back on happy street just because we get rid of george and dick. I think we need to take a hard look at ourselves and the things that led us to accept such a fool for a leader. How is it possible that this man was able to decieve us into going to war in Iraq? Is it because of the wealthy elite? Is it perhaps because we have gotten fat and lazy in our political understanding of life? Did we sell ourselves out for cheap products from china? Have we lost our way by accepting lower standards in our schools and not fighting to maintain them?
These are rhetorical questions Lois. I do in part blame the money hungery leaches in the Republican party but I also blame the lilly livered Democrats who allowed this to be shoved down our throats. There is plenty of blame to go around. We have all gotten fat and lazy by accepting things like an all volunteer military which seems like it is just volunteers but is really a factor of economics. The wealthy don't need to join the military, so they mostly don't. This creates in affect a slave military.
Why do we accept this? I am in part responible because I did not want to get drafted into another useless war like Vietnam.
I would really like to understand why you think we could have won the war in Vietnam and how many do you think would have needed to die to win WHAT exactly. Especially since Vietnam has turned out to not be sooooo frightening. Why did we even need to win that war? A war created by French Imperialism.
Isn't imperialism one of the greatest dangers we face today? Hasn't it been the downfall of all major societies throughout history? And isn't that exactly what we are doing in Iraq? Imperialistically setting OUR agenda.
Its time for Americans to wake up and demand responsibilty from our leaders.
Thanks for listening......haha
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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I remember all of that “win” stuff about Viet Nam. I must be stupid. I could never figure out what it was we were winning.
Still can’t. Does anyone believe we can keep the pipelines in Iraq from being blown up all the time? Ain't happened yet. Thirty million pissed off people who have been invaded. We will never get Iraq's oil.
I mean.. This is so totally obvious. The head of Exxon Mobil is no dummy. He knew that. So who is he trying to take over? Who?
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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"We get labeled as self-serving imperialistic criminals in the eyes of the people of the world when the reality is that the vast majority of us are not hateful, at all. What we had (have) was a delusional leader who gave us all a black eye in the process of pursuing grandiosity."
what a load of self serving crap!
YOU represent what people across the world HATE about america, and about americans!
take a long hard look in the mirror toots, and seek some actual introspection if you dare. you posted here on stupidtopo for years about how we needed to strike back at someone, because someone had hit us in the mouth, and about how george w bush's tough talk made you feel safe and all of that...
your problem is that you are too damn obtuse to make any association between tough talk (which you loved) like 'fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here', 'shock and awe', 'percision bombing', and the loss of innocent human life, which of course you now see all americans as not (ever) guilty of supporting!
you loved it when sean hannity sid it was justice, and you loved it when dick cheney said we had to act, and you ate it up when gW said iraq was an imminent threat, and you didn't care when people pointed out that the neocons had been planning to topple SH long before 9/11, and that iraq had nothing to do w/ 9/11, and it didn't bother you at all that bushco was obviously trying to get in and out of iraq before the next presidential election cycle would have come around, because you were blood-thirsty and gung-ho, and you ate that sh#t up like it was served on a goddamn waffle cone.
shame on you for blaming president bush without ever looking at your own strong support of him and evrything he stood for!
how convenient for you that your own memory is so short, and your glasses ar so rose colored.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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i just hope that you all were able to read my sarcasm button above....
here is a good image of the whole affair....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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matt, i think you meant to say this about leb's political opines...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 28, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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hunh? Looked back at sis's post to see what the emotion was all about, and though I agree with her point, I AGREED WITH IT IN '04. I think we all know that last election cycle was why G-2 sold his soul to Diebold so he could win.
Is that that hard to understand?
back on topic, of course there will be a 'draft' (already is, numbnuts, wtf do you think it is that makes poor kids go to these particular crossroads for, these days?)if we continue this imperialist, bottom line-ledger fattening war?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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Hi Jaybro,
For me, part of the angst is that Lois said she thinks we could have won the war in Vietnam. Maybe we could have. But at what cost. She is a good one for weighing the cost of things like medicine but she seems to ignore the cost of things like war. Not just the financial costs, but the cost in life, limb and morality.
Her lack of understanding about the cost of Vietnam and the consequences seems to have given her the green light to be for the war in Iraq. Another war based on deception and imperialism.
So what happens the next time we are attacked? Will people like Lois learn from the mistakes of the past or will they go right back to their fears and allow those fears to guide them. We need to learn from the past. But if we get the lessons screwed up ( thinking we could win the war in Vietnam and by proxy that that would be good ) then we are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over. Its not just about Lois. Its about all the Americans who were for the war in Iraq.
But Lois is here, so she gets to face the music.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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you don't get it-
you can't get it-
you'll never get it-
it would hurt too much for you to get it.
"Most of us here in America are descent people who would no more kill innocent civilians and bomb their homes, workplaces, etc..."
that's a blatantly false statement.
you pretend to be equally concerned w/ all human life, and you are not, you are concerned w/ yourself above all others, and you feel entirely justified in feeling that way. that's always been our MO in foregin policy (john bolton can even be found screaming it out loud, clear as day, on youtube), and that's exactly why americans are disliked.
"f*#k 'em, kill 'em all, better them than me"
that's you toots, that's you in a nutshell.
now your "knowledge has evolved" so that you are tired of the costs to you, in american blood and treasure, but you could still give a rts ass about any of them, and yet you openly drape yourself in faux altruism, claiming all americans are so decent and would never kill and bomb the inocent! why, so you can now feel like a good and peace loving person? and you want to put the blame elsewhere? look in the mirror- oh wait i forgot, we've already determined that you cannot bear the pain.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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back on topic, of course there will be a 'draft' (already is, numbnuts, wtf do you think it is that makes poor kids go to these particular crossroads for, these days?)if we continue this imperialist, bottom line-ledger fattening war?
de facto draft.......give that man 40 acres and a mule.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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you can turn it around and criticize me all you want, but every word i wrote above about you is accurate, and of course you are not going to know it.
ask yourself this question lois, what is it that you think people in other parts of the world dislike then, lois, if it's not you?
and how are so many people decent at heart, if in fact they are so eager to see pre-emtive wars fought w/ their money, and in their names, in other (mostly non-white) parts of the world? perhaps that is something you ought to think more about.
(god forbid someone blows up a building here and people die! gee, which country ought we go and blow up a bunch of buildings in next? and never mind these international treaties that define the rights of prisoners, americans have been killed, why should we behave any differently than terrorists? f*#k 'em, kill 'em all, better them than me!)
as for your annalysis of me, enjoy it. i don't hate you, i just dislike you and see no reason to bother to be nice to you, and i am not bitter, i am just giving it to you straight, the way you don't like it.
and btw- bitter is for people whose kids are killed on the way to school, or whose wedding party is bombed. you don't know bitter, in fact you probably would like to have it explained to you, at length, so you might be able to get it.
btw- what time is 'the factor' on tonight?
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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am i?
or am i just shouting at you into a deafening wind?
it's pretty easy to tell the difference from some farm in transylvania, i gather.
maybe i'll make some jokes about edwards' barber bill, hillary clinton's leggs, or barak osama, and then we can then be all chummy, and you'll think i'm such a happy-go-lucky sort.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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i think he is trying to get through to you LEB....
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jun 28, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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LEB,
You and fatty screwing around these days?
You are taking plays right out of his book.
Obfuscate the issue with claims of anger.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jun 28, 2007 - 06:11pm PT
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you give yourself far too much credit.
you have not and will not change how you think.
you are a stick in the mud.
as i said above, you have decided the war is/was a mistake, not because anything in you has changed, but because you think the costs are now too great, and you though it would be a cake-walk to occupy/transform iraq ("those who are ignorant of history...").
pretty funny how you conclude that i project, yet you are oblivious to the fact that you need to blame me in order to ignore the truth in what i say about you.
carry on w/ the coyotes, toots.
(btw- i trust you recognize that i intend to deliver that cute and familiar tag w/ a note of disrespect)
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
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Hi Lois,
By obfuscate, I think they mean that you changed the subject from being about why you believe that we could have won the war in Vietnam and all the intendant consequences of that belief.... TO.... being about how Matt communicates with you.
Nice misdirection.
Fatty thinks we should use war as a tool. He doesn't understand that it didn't work in Vietnam and it wont work in the Middle East. They have had wars for centuries and still they fight. More war wont solve that.
Lois, my belief is that you do not understand why war wont work in cases like this. Certainly countries like France were able to right themselves quickly after the Allies freed them from the Germans. That is because they had already had freedom. A freedom that they fought for and they understood.
There are lots of issues going on here and it is difficult to answer them in some short manner. Let me just try and explain why I don't think winning the war in Vietnam would have done us much good as it will not in Iraq.
If we would have won the war in Vietnam, we would have still been left with a people who were angry with us and angry with any government we installed. Just like when Russia took over other countries, we would have had to keep a large military force there. This would have drained us and would lead to our downfall. You can not force others to believe the way you do.
Imperialism does not work. Sure it does for a time. But it is very draining and eventually it leads to the downfall of any country that engages in it. The war in Iraq was based on lies. We were told that Iraq was responible for 9/11 and they wanted our help to get rid of Saddam. ( this is very simplified to try and keep this short ) While it is true that some wanted help. For the most part the average person in Iraq has not taken responibilty for his or her life and is accostumed to having someone else in charge. So what happens if we put a new government in place if the people aren't ready for it? Most likely it will fall and since the people did not fight for it, then those who are willing to fight will gain control. Who might this be? Probably the radical Imams. So how do we stop that? We would have to stay there for many many years which would drain us just like it drained Russia and drained the Roman empire.
Imperialism does not work. To create lasting change, you must work from the inside.
Lois, because I think that you and others like you do not understand why war wont work, then I believe that you and others like you in our Country will remain susceptable to another George Bush and Dick Cheney and we will keep having more wars until we learn that they do not work. Not for subjucating people and not for imperialism. Unless of course you wipe out the other side like we did with the Indians here in America.
Are you prepared to wipe out the innocent, become a terrorist, to win wars like this?
It is your lack of understanding on this issue that angers Matt. It doesn't matter if you now believe the war in Iraq is wrong if you don't understand why. Because you will be susceptable to the next George and Dick who come down the pike. What happens the next time we are attacked if you do not understand and control your fears. Will we end up with world war 3?
Fatty preaches a form of imperialism. Imperialism does not work.
Lois, right now those who want war for things like profit are beating the war drums for us to attack Iran. They are painting Irans leader as an evil person based on things like mistranslated speeches. Crowley has a good example of one. They are also highlighting anything Iran does as being evil. Things that we do also. Things that Isreal does also.
So what happens if we are attacked again and the war mongers point the finger at Iran? Will you believe them and go along with their desire for war? Or will you recognize that the same thing that happened in Vietnam and in Iraq is happening again?
Do you understand that changing your mind about Iraq is not enough? That you need to also understand why or we will keep repeating these mistakes. And the why is NOT just because George screwed up the war plan.
Please try to understand that my intent isn't to bash you. It is to wake you up so that we don't have more wars. Thanks for reading.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:04pm PT
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When I am angry it is usually because there is something with which I am not willing to deal. I can't say that approach has ever actually helped me. I think many of our friends here have most things very right. Even so, no one here is perfect. We don't need to be perfect. We all just need to be good enough. Right now - we are not.
I apologize for not being readable. Being readable is not important. Getting into the guts of this thing is.
What are we going to do?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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Lois, if you are against war then you have a funny way of showing it since you repeatedly supported the war in Iraq. That or you have a very short term memory.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:12am PT
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What one of those whacky Iraqi's has to say on the subject
................
"The results so far have been astounding, and please allow me to say that I'm proud of the change in attitude many of my fellow Iraqis are showing. Even if numbers don't suggest so because the change is happening but it will take time-perhaps beyond September-before this change will show in numbers.
A nation is not a corporation and when we deal with a nation we are dealing with a society; a mass of people with ever changing hearts and minds and that's why numbers alone can't be enough to assess the situation—thoughtful insight and looking at the bigger image are also required.
For over a year the media and many officials were spooking us with the exaggerated ghost of civil war. I wonder what they have to say now! I think their silence is more telling than anything they would've said.
Iraqis are awakening, one very telling example can be seen in the ongoing operation in Diyala; members of the 1920 revolution brigades, once bitter enemies of the US military and Iraqi government are now assisting US and Iraqi military in fighting al-Qaeda even though the majority of the Iraqi soldiers and officers are Shia.
If the change in exclusively Sunni Anbar is good then the change in Diyala is good beyond words.
Another great example that I have personally been in touch with is taking place in a place outside Baghdad. Maybe you remember the story I told you about the area where members of our tribe live. For months unfortunate bloodletting was going on between the tribes, militias and al-Qaeda terrorists in which most of the victims were no more than innocent farmers.
Last week I learned from relatives that two groups of tribes have separately formed two "battalions" of several hundred young tribesmen each; not to fight the other sect or the US or Iraqi forces but to fight al-Qaeda. Even better this step has been taken in cooperation with the authorities in the region and the arrangement will ultimately lead to turning many of those tribal fighters into legitimate law enforcement personnel.
Despite such examples of many promising changes, we have to remain realistic and not overlook the rest of challenges. Uniting against al-Qaeda and even defeating it is not enough to solve all of Iraq's problems and the greater challenge of nation-building still lies ahead.
However, I expect and hope the world to show some gratitude to the Iraqis and Americans who fought, suffered, bled and died ridding the world of thousands of al-Qaeda terrorists, each one of whom could have been capable of murdering as many innocent people as their fellow terrorists did in New York, London or the many cities across the world that paid a high price simply because they don't approve of the ways of those extremists.
The internal struggle for power in Iraq will not end by pacifying al-Qaeda or the militias. It will continue in different forms until we have the correct legislations and institutions that can prevent bloodshed by facilitating peaceful sharing of power and treasure in a way that every individual or group get what they deserve, no more and no less. It goes without saying that these legislations and institutions will need an impartial, competent force to be able to function efficiently..............
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 29, 2007 - 01:04am PT
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I have to question TGT's source. Al Queda is far from the big Iraqi problem. It's total public knowledge that the US is spending millions to plant propaganda news stories in Iraqi media and blogs. All you have to do is look at the daily death toll to see things are not improving. If the silent majority was really happy and supporting the US in Iraq, things would be very different.
peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 29, 2007 - 01:41am PT
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Who can really look at the Iraq thing and, without blowing a bunch of smoke about future peril, say this whole thing is good for America and Americans? What does the current situation actually say, in the plainest terms?
JL
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 29, 2007 - 03:47am PT
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Nice one Moosey!
Lois, I think the problem a lot of us have with your stance is that you appear to only learn after the fact. So you can denounce Bush and his war these days. How does that effect what you will do (vote) in the future?
Which is the closest?
1) watch out for guys like him.
2) stay the course, he was an anomally
BTW/OT I think if you met Matt in the physical analog of this digital 'world' you would see him differently and more in context.
Fukker throws shoes at defensless old men, hyark!
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 29, 2007 - 09:33am PT
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It pains me a great deal and I can't believe I'm doing this but...
One thing a lot of us do on here is try to sway or change opinions (probably a somewhat futile endeavor). It would seem to some extent that LEB has changed her's. Now she's being attacked for expressing it. So what if her over all philosophy and world view has changed little if any. She has changed her view on the war on terror and on Bushco and friends. That's a start.
Earlier in this thread someone said "what can I do (about the war)?" in expression of hopelessness or futility. I see the ONE thing we can all do is keep up the dialog. Put your opinions out there, plant the seeds, and get people to think. Getting (American) people to think has got to be the most difficult task facing the world. They are more concerned with getting the latest status trinket, celebrity gossip, who won American Idol, and other such BS.
So now we have LEB expressing a view that is more in line with many of her detractors here, myself included, and she's being slammed as hard as ever before.
You won't change her view by force of will. She will do that on her own (or not) as she integrates the information she finds here and elsewhere. Just need to keep her away from Fox News.
A seed has been germinated. Don't crush it.
I can't believe I sided with LEB. WTF is the world coming to?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 29, 2007 - 10:14am PT
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External forces have been the prime movers of the violence in iraq from day one. Early on large numbers of the Fadajin Sadam had Syrian or Saudi pasports and pockets full of Franklins and were dressed in Polo and Ralph Loren and Levis.
The "Civil War" is a mythical creation of the MSM. There have been and will continue to be large scale tribal conflicts and revenge killings but these are characteristic of all predominantly tribal societies from the Jungles of the Amazon and Africa to Nepal.
You might try talking to someone who's been there or reading a source that has the cajones to get out and see what is going on rather than writing their columns from the safety of their New York office or in a drunken stupor from a hotel bar stool.
"Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) had tarnished its name here by publicly attacking and murdering children, videotaping beheadings, all while imposing harsh punishments on Iraqi civilians found guilty of violating morality laws prohibiting activities like smoking. The AQI installed Sharia court had sanctioned the amputation of the two “smoking fingers” for those who violated anti-smoking laws. In part because local sentiment was shifting against it, AQI synthesized with other groups and undertook an image makeover, christening itself “The Islamic State of Iraq.” But the new name was just lipstick on a pig here.
On the evening of the 24th I spoke with a local Iraqi official, Colonel Faik, who said the Muftis would order the severance of the two fingers used to hold a cigarette for any Iraqis caught smoking. Other reports, from here in Diyala and also in Anbar, allege that smokers are murdered by AQI. Most Iraqis smoke and this particular prohibition appeared to have earned the ire of many locals. After an American unit cleared an apartment complex on the 23rd, LTC Smiley, the battalion commander, reported that residents didn’t ask for food and water, but cigarettes. In other parts of Baqubah, people have been celebrating the routing of AQI by lighting up and smoking cigarettes.
Other AQI edicts included beatings for men who refused to grow beards, and corporal punishments for obscene sexual suggestiveness, defined by such “loose” behavior as carrying tomatoes and cucumbers in the same bag. These fatwas were not eagerly embraced by most Iraqis, and the taint traveled back to the Muftis who sat in supreme judgment. Locals, who are increasingly helpful in pointing out and celebrating the downfall of AQI here, said that during the initial Arrowhead Ripper attack the morning of the 19th, AQI murdered five men. Townsend’s men found the buried corpses behind an AQI prison, exactly where they’d been told to look for the group grave. Locals also directed Townsend’s men to a torture house. Peering through a window, American soldiers saw knives, swords, bindings and drills. AQI is well-known for its macabre eagerness to drill into kneecaps, elbows, ribs, skulls, and other parts of victims."
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/drilling-for-justice.htm
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2007 - 10:49am PT
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Way to go. We are moving.
It is never smart to state the obvious. But what do you do when it seems the obvious might be more obvious?
Never try to corner a human.
You want to kill a rat? Corner it. You want to talk to a human? Offer choices. Talk about likely consequences.
To get, one must give.
You want someone to put their opinion on the table? Put your opinion on the table.
Nothing is free.
My apologies to all and compliments to Lois. IMO she has just done the first 5.16. I am assuming there is a 15 somewhere. If not, she just skipped over it. Would have made a helluva climber.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:19am PT
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"One thing a lot of us do on here is try to sway or change opinions (probably a somewhat futile endeavor). It would seem to some extent that LEB has changed her's. Now she's being attacked for expressing it. "
LEB isn't being attacked for expressing her new opinions, she's being attacked for rewriting the history of her old opinions and their implications for the nature of US involvement in Iraq.
It's like, after the death camps were revealed to the Germans, of course they said "I was mistaken to support Hitler but the German People are quite decent." Yet those same people bought into the propaganda at the time that Jews were bad for society and something had to be done about them. They accept all the Jewish oppression laws and called for tough action. That's the moral equivilent of what Lois did and she won't see or admit it. It could be easily proved with her own quotes if somebody had the time. That's all.
ALL people are quite decent, even Iraqis. We think we're being quite decent, even with our death penalty and more people in prison than China with 3 times our population. We think it's indecent when we read about strict islamic law. Decency is kinda relative. Let's hope somebody's decency doesn't kill or rape us someday like we have done in Iraq.
TGT, the foreign forces bringing violence from day One are us, the United States. Even the guys running the prisons in iraq have admitted that really few foreign fighters are there. The Iraqis were and are all armed to the teeth. Think foreigners could just waltz into that society, set up shop and make mayhem without consent? Nope. They know who'se from Syria, or even from the next province. It's been a total lie that the problems in Iraq are imported from Syria and Iran. I suppose the French caused the problems when the former Yugoslavia broke up?
peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:30am PT
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I'll take the word of my son and others that have told bme different including a Lt that was collecting those passports.
An article I saw this morning pretty much sums it up.
"
Japanese Propaganda and American Mass Media
June 29, 2007: June 29, 2007: U.S. troops have been mystified at how differently the war they fight in Iraq is portrayed by the U.S. media back home. Most just shrug it off as "politics," and yet another reason to not trust what the mass media presents as reliable reporting. But recently, the troops have been passing around an interesting discovery. Namely, that the Japanese psychological warfare effort during World War II included radio broadcasts that could be picked up by American troops. Popular music was played, but the commentary (by one of several English speaking Japanese women) always hammered away on the same points;
1 Your President (Franklin D Roosevelt) is lying to you.
2 This war is illegal.
3 You cannot win the war.
The troops are perplexed and somewhat amused that their own media is now sending out this message. Fighting the enemy in Iraq is simple, compared to figuring out what news editors are thinking back home. A few times, the mass media has been bold, or foolish, enough to confront the troops about this divergence of perceptions. The result is usually a surreal exchange, with the troops giving the journalist a "what planet are YOU from" look. Naturally, this sort of thing doesn't get much exposure. When pressed, a journalist or editor will dismiss the opinions of the troops (of all ranks), because they are "too close" to see "the big picture." For the same reason, reporters who send back material agreeing with the troops, find their stuff twisted into an acceptable shape, or not used at all. Historians will have a good time with all this."
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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Karl, Would you rather LEB hold her old view?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:47am PT
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TGT, I'm not doubting that the troops are doing heroic work so far as they can, but if most of us who have never been near Iraq (me, for one) have been fed a bill of goods by the media, what, then, is the truth about what's going on? Is the Iraq conflict something you think we can "win," whatever that means (and I sure don't know).
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 29, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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TGT
Michael Yon, who you have quoted at length, says there is a civil war in Iraq. Further, here's what he said about foreign fighters
"Ask average Americans and Europeans if Iranians are coming to Iraq and fighting, and most seem to believe they are. But I crisscrossed Iraq on numerous occasions and never found an American or Iraqi military commander who agreed that Iranians are coming in. Surely foreigners have come to fight in Iraq—I have been there at times when some were captured—but on the balance, foreign terrorists are a small fraction of the problem in Iraq."
I won't paste the whole thing but you can read more about the civil war from Michael here.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/of-words.htm
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jun 29, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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my brother is now in afganhistan, his wife is in iraq, one of my cousins is just back from iraq with the unenviable duty of 'counseling' those that have returned. i assure you he's horrified, not only from his participation, but of what he has to hear now on a daily basis.
my brother started this conflict as a marine, served his time and then went to the army to fly blackhawks. bottomline, he's a little hard-on, seemingly always with a chip on his shoulder, but no longer has any illusions about the what, why and where of the MEss.
when able, all outline a much different profile of overall morale. i sure hope they can get the attention they need when/if they get back.
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