Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 632 of total 632 in this topic |
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 19, 2007 - 04:53pm PT
|
Here is the Ice master himself, dagger in hand. The Chouinard Crampon was just out and the Piolet still in the oven....
THE Crampon.
Pardon the coffee stain (not mine) but groove on the technique!
Gotta love those screws, for opening a wine bottle perhaps!
Makes my knees want to go akimbo just lookin' at YC!
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
May 19, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
|
kewl!
what font is that?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
|
The wild west cover font?
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
May 19, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
|
Great Steve.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
May 19, 2007 - 09:39pm PT
|
Steve - classic! - I had that catalog in high school - I think I wore it out from looking at it too much and drooling on it....
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
May 19, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
|
Beck crampon straps
Carmen Supergaiters
Glaibier Super Guides
Imported Rugby Shirts
Original Standup Shorts
Foamback anorack and cagoule (spell?)
Crag Dubh pack
Ultima Thule pack
these probably came a bit later...
was Doug Robinson's Talus Running article in '76?
|
|
Watusi
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 12:04am PT
|
That is awesome Steve!!
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 12:32am PT
|
Very cool. I had a Ultima Thule pack when I was a young teen ager. Did an outward bound style trip with it starting in the pinto basin and exiting down rattlesnake canyon in Indian Cove. Very cool pack.
|
|
rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 02:06am PT
|
I still have that ice screw, and a knock off of those crampons in may "active" gear. Screw I've been carrying for years waiting for a chance to bail and leave the thing behind on a bail.
YC was definitely my hero growing up.
I sold my bamboo shaft piolet years ago. Kind of miss it.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
|
I have the 1975 catalog right here, Ray so hang tight! Talus running wildmen will appear shortly.
Comin' at ya from stage left. Gotta love Mr. Robinson's neighborhood!
|
|
marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
|
"One does not face falling into a cauldron of Winnebagos..."
How rad is that?! Thanks Steve!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
|
Death by Winnebago, I had forgotten that the realms of demise had that category! I always wondered what DR was running away from. Must have been a JT episode early on.
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
|
Thanks Steve.
|
|
F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
|
Steve,
I lost my copy of the catalog, but perhaps you could do me a favor.
Post up the photo with the quote "loose your dreams and you'll loose your mind"
Thanks, James
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
|
James, that would be in the 1972 clean climbing catalogue (mine is buried right now) and captions a pic of the Moose's Tooth. Go to Frostworksclimbing.com and you should find it.
Edit: Regrettably, as a highschool student, I cut that very quote out for a coat of arms art project.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
|
I'd have to go digging for that classic old Patagonia buttshot. The photographer was lurking around the C4 lot, identified herself, and said she was looking for oldschool clothing because pics of the stuff made YC happy. I went back to my tent and proudly put on the coffee colored garb of yesteryear.
She blanched a little when I happily showed her the plate-sized sardine oil stain on one leg while telling her I'd never washed those pants because I was convinced that any laundering would hasten their demise. I should say the only thing bad about the whole deal was the slightly smarmy caption, "Tailor wanted, no experience necessary." Just ain't what you'd really find on the C4 bulletin board. Got two pairs of new wall pants for my effort.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
|
Ruby Tuesday (Rolling Stone)
"She would never say where she came from
Yesterday don't matter if its gone
While the sun is bright
Or in the darkest night
No one knows
She comes and goes
Goodbye, Ruby Tuesday
Who could hang a name on you?
When you change with every new day
Still I'm gonna miss you...
Don't question why she needs to be so free
Shell tell you it's the only way to be
She just can't be chained
To a life where nothing's gained
And nothing's lost
At such a cost
Theres no time to lose, I heard her say
Catch your dreams before they slip away
Dying all the time
Lose your dreams
And you will lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?
Goodbye, Ruby Tuesday
Who could hang a name on you?
When you change with every new day
Still I'm gonna miss you..."
|
|
F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 08:30pm PT
|
Steve, thanks for pointing out the right catalog. Seeing those crampons made me go and dig mind out.
I bought them in the early seventies and were matched up with a pair of Super Guides. Later I used them on Scarpa Invernos, but in the mid nineties I figured the crampons should be retired before I was left stranded with a broken rig. I included a Charlet ice screw and a Salewa ice hog. I can't say the Charlet screw saw any action, especially when there was a Salewa tubular screw on the gear sling.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 11:11pm PT
|
That old Warthog does make a dandy dagger. I wonder if YC is using one on the catalog cover shot?
|
|
F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 11:18pm PT
|
Steve, your memory is better than mine. The Warthog was great cause it could be hammered in but screwed out. I was half right calling it an ice hog.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2007 - 11:32pm PT
|
You can call it anything but RELIABLE that's for sure!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
|
Keep your heels down going over that bump!
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
|
Steve
You're amazing. Though I wasn't climbing until a few
years later ('72), I have a pair of those crampons, in addition
to the salewa type, and used to have a few of the screws, including warthogs. I donated them to a play, K2 at the CMC a few years ago and never saw them again. . .
Keep up the history!!!
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 01:14pm PT
|
Those Annapurna glasses were the shiznit!
I had a pair of those. It was so bitchen bopping around on glaciers looking like a bug.
About that french technique - did anybody ever really use it? Pff...
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
|
The Chouinard cramp was a thing of beauty, a work of art. As were the droop picked bamboo shafted ice axes he produced.
Yeah TwistedCrank I have seen Jim Nigro French +70% ice without getting his tongue stuck. Won't work in double boots.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
|
Philo
Jim and I started climbing together back in the east,
waaaaaaayyyyyy back!!!!
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
|
Cool thread ;)
That Chouinard article was huge !
Speaking of French Technique:
Ok so I have not even seen a climable ice flow in over 20 years. So I see all this new fangled gear that looks like it rox on steep/vert ice. Tools with no leashes, crampons with heel hooks etc.
So getting back into climbing now I have had a conversations with active ice climbers. When I ask "do you know all the terms for the various foot work techniques in French style?" they look at me funny and say something like "Who uses any French technique these days?".
I figure either:
1. they do not ever climb things less than vert, never do/ encounter any long 70 degree ice.
2. They look like these contemporary pictures I have seen of people climbing 60 degree hard snow ice, front pointing with double, short tools...
To which I look and say I don't get that ?
Then I ask "but on a long less than verticle section, don't you get tired for no reason, like your calves and shoulders from swinging that extra tool? I usually get responces with rationale that I don't think makes sense, but 'what'ahey' I don't go ice climbing since all these new tools, so I'll take their word for it.
It just seems to me the influence of the new tools and the hype to climb more spectacular climbs has left a lot of todays newer ice climbers ignorant of the whole revo/evolution that was the combining of what was known as German or front point and the French or flat foot techniques. Then of course our hero YC tops off the revolution with his advancements in tools and then protection.
in the near future, with all this mixed climbing using bolted pro, will we start to refer to 'sport ice' and 'Trad ice' ?
I am drying out gear from being out in the Mojave the past couple days.
It was awesome, perhaps a 50 year snow storm. (I hope I got a few good pics)
Trooping around in the big boulders covered in snow got me thinking a lot about ice BITD.
I am gunna dig out my old set of crampons and post a pic.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
|
That's real funny. Yeah the heel hookers and -- what's the wierd thing they do when they hang their leg on their arm while upside down and 3 feet away from a bolt -- well those guys, they couldn't climb 70 degree ice fer nothing.
As for the so-called french technique well, I've always hated the french so I generally refused to call those techniques frog names like Pinot Noir Neve and Chateau Blanc Boofoo. They were just efficient ways to cover lots of vert in the hills.
I guess Yvon had some french blood - well, french canuck at least - so I guess he musta felt obliged to call it something. I don't think Fred Beckey ever gave much thought to what it was called.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
|
Classic ice axe ad from March 1973 Mountain 26.
Another from Mountain 24.
|
|
Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
|
|
|
Dec 18, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
|
Also speaking of "French" technique...
I was retreating from the Run Don't Walk Couloir in the early '80s with Scarpelli. I faced out, flat-footed, using YC's techniques. I got outta there 1/2 hour before Bob did.
He was facing in, front pointing. How can you swing an axe that way, when you're down climbing? Five minutes after he exited the gully, the sun hit it, and major sh#t started falling. Nearly cost him big time.
Larry
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
|
Got bored last week and dug a pile of my 70's climbing gear out of my garage. In going through it and matching up stuff to my old Chouinard catalogs I've established a pretty good timeline.
One item I can't find in my 72, 78, 83 Chouinard catalogs is his U.S. made WartHog ice piton. It is marked Chouinard-USA on one side and Wart Hog on the other and replaced the Salewa Warthog in his line-up.
I bought 4 of them between 1978 and 1983---but I'm uncertain when. I retired from ice-climbing in 1983 when it dawned on me that I had used up an incredible amount of luck in the previous 12 years. Still climbing---just not that slippery cold stuff.
Can anyone provide more history or a time-line on this item? thanks, Fritz
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
|
Somehow I've always thought the ice pin in YC's hand on that catalog cover was not a warthog but a way old-school one that looks basically like a very long vertical blade pin. Somebody gave me one recently; when I'm posting again, I'll show it off.
My fuzzy recollection is that Warthogs didn't come along until later, like early 70s. YC liked em enough to make his own; I always wanted a bomber Salewa screw.
I'm still climbing with my 70 cm bamboo Piolet. What a beautiful tool! Ultimately esthetic hand forging, fine balance, and over the years grain rises in the bamboo to improve grip. All the wood-handled axes (and ice hammers) dampened vibration nicely, helping the pick to stick in brittle ice. But when Yvon started comparing the bamboo handle to a fine fly rod, I thought he had gone round the bend.
That Salewa "coathanger" ice screw was way sketchy. On the water ice FA of the V-Notch with Yvon, he placed one for his only pro halfway up a pitch. Coming up behind, I pulled the shank end right out. It had snapped off at the top of the corkscrew. That was the end of that for me. Except for pulling wine corks.
|
|
F10
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
|
DR,
You're not the only one still using a 70 cm bambooo Piolet,
I just love the feel of it
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2008 - 10:07pm PT
|
Wasn't long before he too was selling a "dayglow metal monster!" LOL
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2008 - 02:36am PT
|
Steve, let's not be hasty here. He never sold a dripping-in-orange, clang-a-bang monster like the MSR "negative hooking-angle" implement that was all designed wrong-way-around to arrest a fall rather than positively holding to prevent falling in the first place. Nope, not the Chouinard style.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2008 - 02:56am PT
|
"About that french technique - did anybody ever really use it?"
Yep, as an aspiring alpinist oh-so-long-ago, I studied 'On Ice' word by word, and practiced all those frenchy names assiduously. I came to realize that there was much truth in YC's rock vs. snow/ice descriptions of body positions, and still think about them when I scramble through the mountains.
Learning those techniques never resulted in me becoming another Twight or Gadd, but it sure was a formative experience...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
|
Time for the Ice Screw Parade.
Starting with the scrawny Marwa!
The thinest will take a cork out and are too delicate to believe. Falling on one.......even aiding on one, yow!
Classic late sixties screws and drive-ins. Charlet-Mosers on the bottom. Salewa tube up top and frst generation Chouinard-Salewa Warthog drive-in.
Darker second generation Salewa Warthog on botttom with two Camp screws below early Salewa tube.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Dec 22, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
|
Nice collection Steve.
After my experience with the snapped-off Charlet-Moser ice screw, I went into the Ski Hut in Berkeley and bought out their stock of a dozen of those Marwas -- just to be sure no one accidentally used them for pro.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
|
Marwa screw: I broke mine off absent-mindedly screwing it into a picknick table.
Didn't even get to try it in the wine bottle...
That last Warthog is art.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2008 - 03:06pm PT
|
I have been waiting patiently for a Warthog to end up as a dagger in some low budget sci-fi horror flick.
Doug- those delicate imported screws never had a chance considering the way we often used to put them in, using the ice axe or alpine hammer like a brace and bit. Rock out and snap!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
|
Steve: Thank you for the awesome line-up of old ice-screws you posted. I have not figured out the trick of posting photos here, but the Warthog I asked about is all but identical to the Salewa Warthog in your last photo.
However it is clearly embossed Chouinard USA on one side and Wart Hog on the other. One is currently in a group of Chouinard screws on E-BAy. Auction # is 160306090912.
Yes they are mine. Fritz
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:35am PT
|
If your Warthog has a bronze finish on it rather than black then you likely have a third generation which is even more prop worthy!
|
|
Clu
Social climber
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:30pm PT
|
I along with several from Mt. Traders in Berkeley signed up for Yvon's 3 day clinic on ice near Mt. Dana. Rick Sylvester was assisting, $85 (?!) for a 3 day clinic. Yvon had just come out with the N. Wall hammer and cute "Climaxe", the first short tools. Still have my 70cm bamboo and recently picked up a N Wall hammer. Would love to complete the set with a Climaxe.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2008 - 06:42pm PT
|
Who wouldn't want to tidy things up that way! LOL
I have an original Piolet and a Zero Northwall Hammer. The Climaxe is pretty spiffy but always seemed like a great way to puncture fabric or flesh at the time. First came out in 1972.
|
|
jimknight
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
|
Anyone remember the Nestor Ice Screw? It made a fair dagger. I'll dig one out and make a scan to post, just for grins of course.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
|
A Climaxe would make a good collector's item, for sure, but they weren't so, uh, "hot" for climbing. Not enough heft, so they kinda wobbled and dinked around.
The hammer, though -- now that was a tool. My first one was hand forged from a Yo hammer, with a pick about half as big in all dimensions. Shorter, thinner, more delicate, but with the same force behind it. Talk about penetration. Eventually it broke, so I could see why he beefed up the production models.
YC had a Climaxe at his beach shack that came out at low tide and was all scruffy from digging in the sand. He called it the Clam-axe.
|
|
jimknight
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:17pm PT
|
Classic story Doug! The Climaxe was too light. I wrapped solder around the head of mine and taped it in place to get the weight up. Okay as a 3rd tool. I climbed with a guy from Lander (Wes Kraus?) who had refit his Climaxe with a longer, framing hammer handle. It worked even better.
|
|
east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
|
was that at YC's nice little multi-million dollar "shack" overlooking rights and lefts ? Wish I had a "shack"!!!!!!
|
|
F10
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
|
Actually my Climaxe comes in pretty handy on some alpine routes where you don't need an axe but need to travel a small bit of snow. When you don't need it, tuck it away and it is out of sight but not out of mind.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
|
Aesthetics aside, the need for close quarters step cutting capability or palm support on a hammer length tool never convinced me that I had to have one. I lusted after a fiberglass LAS Hummingbird hammer instead.
Classic old school Lee Vining canyon ice shot
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
|
Fiberglas Hummingbird hammer?
The white handled jobber...
Nah, the tubular pick flexed too much and all those short tools were knuckle bangers.
After all of that with tube picks and the hammers,
I liked the Big Bird with an Alpine pick (or the reverse curve banana pick) best.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
|
I still have one of those original fiberglass, tinker toy -like, hummingbirds, "The EB of Ice Climbing!"
-I have too much scar tissue to see my knuckles....
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
|
fuk fuk fuk and:
What am I really saying here.
I am a rock climber fer chrissakes!
It is time I talk to somebody, a professional maybe, about this... I have nerdish inclinations, issues even.
Oh well, it would be cool to have an original Pterodactyl (Terrordactyl?)
Or an old-school Mountain Technology 60 cm axe.
Yes that would be nice.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 08:39pm PT
|
Or anything made by Hamish McInnes
'Cuz: if it's not Scottish it's crap!!!
|
|
F10
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
|
'Cuz: if it's not Scottish it's crap!!!
Do Millar mitts count
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2008 - 11:07pm PT
|
A little schnice on the ruckle......
Tom Patey leading on the Alladin Buttress, Cairngorms. John Cleare photo.
More ruckle less schnice!
Jimmy Marshall on Parallel B Gully, Graham Tiso photo. Both photos from Climbing Ice, YC, 1978.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
|
Well, you guys are dredging a lot of memories here, from a guy who barely climbs ice anymore. I mean, it's scary! (not the recollections...)
That's me and YC on the cover of Mountain. Don't remember ever seeing that issue. I belayed short, after he pestered me with "save some for me." Funhogs, jeez. That's the FA of the Lee Vining icefalls. Any of em. Wish I could recall what prompted us to go there. I might have glimpsed it, for all I know now. We went to take pictures for Climbing Ice, brought our photographer. I always liked the way this series of shots was laid out tall and skinny on the back cover. And I really like the mixed climbing close-up taken the same day across the canyon.
No, we're not talking about Yvon's "big house" right on the point-break side of Pitas Point, itself the next major break south of Rincon -- that was later. The shack was half a mile further down the coast, sandwiched between the old Coast Highway and another good break. Boards in the rafters, and you could see right through cracks in the wall. The waves broke 50 feet away, except at high tide when they were closer. I spent a lot of time sitting up against the seawall writing. Yvon let me stay in the back room months at a time. When Malinda moved in, I retired to the basement of the "Martian Movers" building, under the GPIW store with Tex Bossier.
Tar, you is a sick puppy. But we'll be gentle with your obsessions here even as we deconstruct...
Reality therapy: The old McInnes tool -- the "Terror" -- was a blunderbuss. Bashed the ice into submission -- it wasn't pretty. Way too fat and blunt and shapeless to ever stick a swing, you were reduced to excavating a hole in the ice and then hooking the thing into it to hang on. Brutish.
Still, Don Jensen had one in the Palisades as his only tool, and I've always been amazed at what he did with it. Not water ice -- given the equipage he wisely stayed away from that -- but with nothing more for purchase than that 50 cm shaft plunged in, he down-soloed the FA of the V-Notch in snow conditions. No one for miles around if he got in trouble. It had a hammer face for rock, and he wore it in a holster on his belt.
I always liked the Hummingbirds. Amazing sticking them in brittle ice, with what the pick displaced neatly stovepiping up the inside. Seemed to shatter a lot less. Even the springiness felt good. And knuckle-bashing? That was just normal. The fat wool mittens were armor for that, right? I mean, once they got snow in the palms they damn sure weren't for grip... When my knuckles got too sore, I would sometimes swing a hammer held with just thumb and forefinger on either side of the handle. 'Bout then it was time for the bar.
McInnes: "Ice is for pouring whiskey on."
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
|
Yes quite,
Accurate deconstruction too.. (not that you would do otherwise)
I don't actually hope to USE such a thing as the Terror.
Then there was the "Roosterhead":
Built like a Terror, may have been the first tool to have a little point facing forward to protect the knuckles?
I couldn't make that sharply drooped shortish stuff work well either; some said they were just hooking tools and never suited to fat ice which makes a little sense.
The tube picks for the Big Bird were a little beefier and therefore inspired more confidence, but I still felt too specialized and limiting in other ways (don't ask me exactly what ways...).
But I still think any of the tools Hamish made would be nice to have under glass!
(I would at the least, enjoy seeing some pictures of various things he crafted, besides the Terror)
Somewhere back there in the pile of magazines, there is an article on the craftsmanship end of the McInnis obsession.
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
|
Remember the Forrest hammers ?
http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff98/trundlebum/old_gear/?action=view¤t=OldIceTools.jpg
I just tried successfully to get that alpine pick unscrewed and dislodged. A good dose of 'Liquid Wrench' did the trick. I was amazed as that pick had been in there about 30 years if not more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was just back east for X-mass, while there I took a trudge through my dad's basement. I had a pair of crampons that worked great but couldn't remember the brand. I found the front, right portion of one of them... Simond. They were hinged but with stiff boots descent at pretty steep stuff. What made them work well was that the first set of down points were actually at about a 60 degree rake. That made it so on less than vert stuff you could kick back on the four points instead of just the two front. A lot less strenuous.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 11:40am PT
|
Here is a shot of Hamish MacInnes, the Fox of Glencoe in his shop from Mountains by John Cleare, 1975.
I'm not sure whether the Terror was in his head or in his hands! LOL
|
|
east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
I'm going to hit "the ice" right now!Ice skating that is. Got my puck,stick, pads ready for some pick up hockey, and some smoooth gliding! Gull lake is on.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
|
And a jolly hockey puck, ye are, Murry! Watch out for the frosty loin check!?!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Sweet archival snag Steve!
"A boy and his tools"....
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
DR!
You’re such a jewel here on the forum.
I love these passages:
“That's me and YC on the cover of Mountain. Don't remember ever seeing that issue. I belayed short, after he pestered me with ‘save some for me.’
Still, Don Jensen had one [a terrordactyl] in the Palisades as his only tool, and I've always been amazed at what he did with it. Not water ice -- given the equipage he wisely stayed away from that -- but with nothing more for purchase than that 50 cm shaft plunged in, he down-soloed the FA of the V-Notch in snow conditions. No one for miles around if he got in trouble. It had a hammer face for rock, and he wore it in a holster on his belt.”
Jeepers, that’s pretty slim toolage for such a descent.
And I’m thinking the shaft on those things is more like 40 cm, so he’s going down a 50/60° slope with effectively nothing more than a claw hammer in hand!
Forget about self arrest….
More stories please.
What about Don Jensen?
Enigmatic personage right???
You must have some John Fisher vignettes too….
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
|
The weapons under discussion from Climbing Ice, 1978.
And a Terrordactyl action shot or two.
The Fox uses Terrordacyls on steep mixed ground on the Buachaille Etive Mor in Glencoe. Typically he is wearing a "flat at" and gaberdine trousers. From Mountains again.
Rob Taylorin the Hemsedal Valley, Norway. Henry Barber photo. From Climbing Ice.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Nice.
As I mumbled upthread, the Terrors were said to be more about hooking Scottish mixed than swinging thick ice.
I mean, very little clearance with that pick/handle configuration.
I'm pretty sure that first shot was cropped & used in a Salewa crampon ad.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Wow,
Same photo shoot slightly different picture:
From Mountain number 53
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
I started out with those crampons.
The front point teeth were angled down but straight,
So it helped to have a little bit different kicking motion than with curved points; sort of a downward kick as opposed to a swing of the lower leg.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
|
To stand and rely on.....unlike that left foot!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
I always wondered about that too.
(I think he is just baring his teeth)
Then the real terror strikes after that left foot gives way and the tool in his right hand comes shearing out...
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
From Mountain number 58
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Who made the first bent-shaft tools?
Lowe???
Never saw these out in the field; one piece stamped? Cut??
Steve you could probably duplicate these for us in a couple hours?
From Mountain number 68 July/August 1979
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
|
I could use em to install rigid foam too! LOL
The bent shaft thing had to be european with so many tweakers afoot there.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Wow! We've seen so many shots of Yvon at his tin-shed forge that it's nice to get a look at Hamish in his shop. So similar, really, the slightly disheveled, slightly cluttered place where serious metalworking obviously happens.
All these shots show much later and more evolved McInnes tools than the ones I was thinking of from the late 60s. The blades on these look to be about one-third the thickness and of a high alloy. I'd like to swing those tools, and I bet they would work just fine.
The earlier things were indeed just hooking tools. You blasted a hole in ice then hooked it.
The one Hamish has in his hand is the same length as Don Jensen's tool. You're probably right, Tar, 40 cm. In the comparison shot from Climbing Ice I think the Piolet and North Wall Hammer are 50 or 55 cm.
The one I got was in total admiring imitation of Don Jensen. I was a puppy, an apprentice guide. He was not only Chief Guide in the Palisades, and later owner of PSOM, but he was the real deal cutting-edge alpine climber. His West Face of Mt. Huntington from '65 or so was the Alaskan climb of the decade. (Can't recall if the Cassin was done in the Sixties too.) He trained for all his Alaskan climbs in the spring in the Palisades, and down-soloing the V-Notch was just one snapshot out of weeks of soloing around up there, all alone. Not only is that a pretty small shaft to anchor a self-belay kicking steps downward, but in spring conditions I always worry about how bonded the snowpack is, really, to the burnished green ice below.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Is that the same groundbreaking climb that David Roberts participated in and wrote about?
Maybe I'm thinking Mount Deborah.
Here is the current state of my Jensen pack:
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
|
I think Hamish went to work for the people that produced the Curver and several other not quite designs. Lots of design experimentation going on
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Yep, the same climb with Roberts, chronicled in his first book Mountain of my Fear. He went on to write Deborah: A Wilderness Narrative about his expedition there with Don in 1964. His description of first meeting Don is the opening passage of Deborah:
"I first met Don Jensen at the beginning of our sophomore year at Harvard. I had heard of Don -- other members of the club had told me what a strong, enthusiastic climber he was. But it was something of a surprise to meet him. That Friday afternoon, I had lugged my gear over to the entry of Lowell House, where the cars would pick us up. With the other beginners, I stood for a few moments in an awkward silence. Then one of them stepped aggressively toward me, stretching out an eager hand: "Hi! I'm Don Jensen."
"I was surprised because he seemed so boyishly friendly. I had imagined some cool, hard athlete. I could see that Don was powerful... His black hair and solid face were strong and masculine. But his face was also young, and terribly sincere. I was used to the Harvard 'style,' in which one affects a biting wit and a cold heart. ...he was nostalgic for the Sierra Nevada. He told me about a twenty-day trip he had taken alone, following the divide southward. I had never been out for that long, let alone by myself; I suggested that he must have got lonely. On the contrary, he had found the several people he had run into a disappointment. Once he had seen a large group of Sierra Club hikers, and had deliberately skirted them so that he would not have to talk to them."
I'll get to telling my own Jensen stories, but when I found this I had to copy it out. A different take, but so obviously the same guy and the same boyish enthusiasm I loved in him.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Interesting to think of Hamish going on to work at Snowdon Mouldings. And especially interesting to hear about actual experience swinging a Curver.
My Chouinard-trained eye saw the droop as too curved, going beyond mirroring the arc of swinging the tool. So I suspected it wouldn't work and never tried one. On the other hand, even the backwards curve that came out later seemed to stick just fine, and with the same swing. I've never quite understood that.
To further confound things, I was accosted in a pub in Sheffield in the mid-Nineties by the story that the first drooped-pick axes were made by Scots, re-forging their axes heated over a Primus stove.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
DR said:
"To further confound things, I was accosted in a pub in Sheffield in the mid-Nineties by the story that the first drooped-pick axes were made by Scots, re-forging their axes heated over a Primus stove."
Out here in Colorado Bill Roos and Paul Sibley were tinkering with ice axes, maybe as early as late 60s and certainly into the 70s.
Below is a picture of my sewing shop where I created many sewn items including Fish Products portaledges throughout the 90s.
On the wall to the left you can see an old stamp remnant from the Forrest ice ax manufacturing process.
In the enlarged photo below,
On the far left side is a Clog tool, (a short north wall hammer), unaltered.
To the right of that,
Also on the left side of the double doors hang twin custom short 45 cm tools.
These appear to have Simond Chacal blades welded onto some other sort of head and shaft.
To the right are two other similar examples, more toward ax length (particularly the yellow one) along with a 60 cm Chouinard Piolet.
Up in the high right corner is some sort of north wall hammer, with a mid-length wooden tool handle, no ferrule, wrapped in tennis racket grip leather!
These guys were experimenting with radically drooped pics fairly early on: I’m not sure when they started. Paul has mentioned something about doing it in a similar timeframe to that of McInnis. So Doug Robinson, your story about having been accosted by the gearhead Scotsmen: they could apparently get a little of that rivalry from these Colorado boys!
(Maybe best just to drink the scotch, or beer, marvel the tool-relics and wander outside under the sky, breathe some fresh air ... haha!)
Somewhere else in the mix was something more representative of their earlier work, with a simple droop which they augmented from a generic wood shafted short ax. Most of what you see on the wall here is reverse curve modification, so it represents their late 70s noodlings.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Boy oh boy Roy,
Another fine shop. Gotta love that multi-functional feel when the acetylene rig is within reach from the sewing machine. OT, but I can't help noticing some boards off to the right with pins on em. And a couple of those tools appear to be still dripping from that Mendel Right black ice outing.
I'd pour a Scotch here but not yet. Enjoying too much the Peets hour.
We seem to have another case of simultaneous invention here, or at least ultra-rapid spread of drooped-pick experimentation worldwide. If there was a Nobel Prize hanging in the balance, or even if Oli was into ice, we could escalate to a full-scale Taco Brand(TM) conflagration. The only corner of the alpine world still apparently silent here is the Alps. Or maybe they represent the Old School -- been climbing ice for well over a hundred years, thank you very much, and forging tools for it so long too, that they had gotten stubborn or complacent about how it's done.
Pause again to look at that Chouinard Equipment catalog that started this thread. (Thanks once again, Steve) Happen to have an original, on paper, right handy. Really can't tell from the tiny prints of those classic shots of French Technique if YC's axe has a curved pick. And I can't find right now my copies of Climbing Ice, with better reproductions of the same photos. Certainly by the next catalog the date of introduction of the Piolet is listed as 1969. And by October of that year Yvon delivered to me on the edge of the Palisade Glacier the hickory-handled 70 cm one (and that hand-forged Alpine Hammer) that we put to good use on the V-Notch the next day.
None of this really answers the question of where first the droop. Yvon's Piolet was such a high point esthetically -- still is the most beautiful ice tool I own and use. And it was so well marketed, including adroit use of the media -- a Chouinard trademark -- like my article about the V-Notch "Truckin' my Blues Away" (which had to be in Mountain? 1970?), that the question never arose, for me, until forcefully presented that night in Sheffield.
Wish I recalled better. Certainly remember pushing through a loud, crowded Pub. Certainly he was a Climber of Standing (TM) -- I was being escorted around and introduced, after giving a slide show in a big, tiered auditorium. He was definitely poking a finger toward my chest, which sloshed his beer. He was very intent on letting me know in no uncertain terms about Scottish primogeniture of the droop. Others listening agreed. May have even said that YC had come through Scotland to take in their development.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
"If there was a Nobel Prize hanging in the balance, or even if Oli was into ice, we could escalate to a full-scale Taco Brand(TM) conflagration. "
hahahahahahahahaha!
We could only hope for such a sh#t storm of entertainment!
Sadly I think it's just you and me on the sidelines, toasting our scotches and coffees with this one...
No doubt, and no argument, the aesthetics, execution and branding of the Piolet stands as a masterpiece of our generation.
It ought to be curated in the Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum in New York City.
Not for sleuthing purposes but for flavor:
(Clearly, Chouinard set a new standard in ad copy aesthetics with his clean lines and innovative fonts)
(Ad Mountain Magazine number 40 November 1974)
Sometime this year there was a pretty darn good article in the New Yorker about simultaneous mass propagation, but independently, of parallel innovations.
Oh well,
Eagerly awaiting some Don Jensen tidbits.
He had a bit of the innovator in him yes?
I love the clean lines on that Rivendell Jensen pack.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Never used one of these tents designed by Jensen,
And by some accounts it was pretty tiny but very stable in high winds.
Certainly it has elegant lines from a design perspective.
Those Rivendell Mountain Works ads also displayed a bit of class:
(also from Nov 74 Mountain)
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Here's some reference to the adoption of the curved picks.
As a sideliner, I'm more interested in appreciating the craftsmanship and aesthetic of the tooling.
But the instigation and timeline of innovation is cool too:
Some general commentary on applicable designs:
Reprinted from Mountain number 40
full article to follow....
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
From Mountain Magazine number 40 November 1974,
The Changing Styles of Scottish Winter Climbing
Summary:
An appraisal of the last four years of Scottish winter climbing since the introduction of new techniques and equipment.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
|
Man did those blokes get some mileage out of those Salewa adjustables! I remember that article well as it came out at what seemed to be the height of classic Scottish winter climbing activity. Great post!
All day today I have been pondering the crafty and Promethean Scots re-forging their axe tips over a Primus stove. LOL
There must be quite a few exciting pick failure stories to go along with all the tweaking and innovation. It seems like people were zeroed in on stick and not on ease of extraction for another decade.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
There can be now doubt about that stick priority.
That Curver beast really stuck and routinely manufactured some serious dinner plates on the way out.
Sibley and Roos told me that one of their early re-drooping exercises produced a pick which frequently came out of alignment!
Must have been some metallurgical considerations at play...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
|
Lots of these early mixed routes were done with Salewa adjustable crampons strapped onto leather boots. Very light and simple design (complete with period duct tape anti-bot wrap).
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
My, aren't you the tidy archivist!
Just look at those cute little red twisty ties keeping order over your Beck neoprene straps.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Just how many axes of marginally differentiated design did a girl need back in 1979???
(From Mountain number 67)
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
What an awesome thread and so much fun to read. Man, what great memories of adventures for a gear freak like me.
I been lucky enough to use most of the tools mentioned at one time or another. Gotta say ice climbing is so much easier now with the new gear available. But the new tools just don't touch me like the the older ones still do. Hard to beat a bamboo axe or a Terro adze for simple, effective and beautiful designs.
Used a 55cm Piolet and alpine hammer on Snivleing Gully and Weeping Wall in '74. Couple of weeks later I borrowed a pair of Terro's from some guys thrashing about on Cirus Gully. Climbed Louise Falls with those tools. Hard to get me back on difficult ice after that without a Terro in at least one hand.
Even if you couldn't keep the picks straight on cold days. That problem never seemed to improved over the years. At least you could hammer them flat again easily enough.
But using a Terro didn't stop us from taking a torch to everything possible with a curve but a Chouinard axe.
We later did Cirus gully ourselves. One trip with a Curver and a custom "torched" NW hammer up to the last tier, then Terros on that last bit of slush. Then I decided a set of Clog Vultures were the "sheet" for some unknown reason having never used them and did the second ascent of Slipstream with them with no spare. A bit later popped the head off the hammer soloing Louise in front of students while hanging a top rope. (almost filled my trousers while begging for a second tool to be sent up). Always carried at last one full size spare and sometimes two after that. Polar Circus again that spring and cut our time in half with a set of Forest Lifetime tools with my first reverse curve picks.
Takkakaw with a Zero axe and a Chacal and the second solo of Cavel with a Terro hammer and a Curver axe. Chacal and Barracuda on Borgeau Left, Weeping Pilar and Pilsner.
What a grand ride over the years. Salewa hinged, Chouinard rigids, SMC rigids, Chouinard hinged, clip on Chouinard rigids, then BD Sabertooths and finally Darts and Rambos. Have yet to break any crampon. Who ever thought leashless would be easier? But a set of Quarks or Nomics quickly point that out.
Galibers, Trappeurs, Haderers, Koflachs, Scarpa, Sportiva. I'd rather have the Haderers back to tell the truth. Kept the metal around but the leather went by the way side when plastic came along. Too bad and to think only a plastic boot has ever broken in half on me.
Screws and ice pins? Have you guys tried the newest stuff....simply amazing. Bigger change than the invention of Friends.
But back on topic. This from Mike Chessler's web site..
"And if the climbers ice climbed, they used Chouinard Ice Axes and Crampons. Chouinard copied the steep drooping pick of European hand made axes, that planted firmly in hard ice or Neve, and made balance and esthetics primary."
I had thought I'd seen pictures of what was supposed to be Heckmair's Eiger axe with a distinctly curved pic years back. Maybe some one else has as well. Not all that hard to bend a axe pic with a gas torch, hammer and anvil. Taking nothing away from Chouinard and company but can't see why the local Chamonix smiths hadn't played with the idea earlier. Not like I'd be telling everyone about my "custom axe" if I was running up the local ice. Tight community in Chamonix but anyone ever seen one of the custom axes from before '69?
As we all now know a guy can get a lot done with stiff pair of boots, a tightly laced set of 12 point 'pons and a curved axe or two :)
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
|
Above all, be neat.......er drink neat......er whatever!
Just in case you can't get enough! From Mountain 20, March 1972.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Wild to see Scottish ice climbing and be reminded of the evolving style that followed, and then pushed, the gear. I love the bit about temporarily setting an ice screw, mantling on it, pull and repeat. Brings to mind Harding's then-new aid ploy of drilling a shallow hole and hanging a hook in it. Then it became a specially modified hook, ground to fit...
Staring at that Scottish ice, plastered improbably on rock as rime blown in off the North Sea. A wringing wet, freezing wind. Brrr, reach for the Dachstein sweater and wooly mitts.
It reminds me suddenly of the Chugach Range, Alaska panhandle, and a recent (last 20 years) flowering of steep skiing. (I mean, we were just enjoying a fine thread about backcountry skiing. There too the campfire burned down to nearly just Tar and me.) Similar relationship of peaks just inland, beaten upon by arctic winds off a cold sea. Same result: rime sticking to improbably steep mountainsides. In the Chugach the stuff can look like powder in ski footage, but the fact that it's sticking, somehow, beyond the normal constraints of avalanche steepness gives it away.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Yes nice to see this thread still has legs.
And a first post from Dane Burns,
That's a very tasty recapitulation you served up for us.
Welcome to the Forum Dane!!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
|
Tis madness, but it's a fine kind of madness.....
Doug Thompkins on Hell's Lum Crag, Cairngorms, Scotland. From Climbing Ice, 1978.
It's fun and he's having it!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
In Fall 1981 I sold my Galibier Super Guides to a nice guy from Washington named Steve Massioli. (I had climbed Rainier that summer in a pair of used Koflachs which I picked up at the Seattle REI, and just “knew” I was never going back to leather). I remember Steve eagerly scampering around on slabs around Camp 4 testing the Galibier out on rock. That boot rock climbs fairly well with such a narrow last. You can still buy them new! Sadly Steve died a few years down the line on something like Moonflower Buttress in Alaska.
I never owned them, but once borrowed a pair of Trappeur Rebufatt for an ascent of a rock route on Clyde Palisade: “Thunderbird Wall”, Robinson I think that’s your line?
We stayed left of that nasty V slot at mid height and got into a 5.8 hand crack. Those were very well-made boots: they seemed to have a high craftsmanship quotient.
Mollitor was another very nicely crafted boot I had a chance to borrow and climb both ice and rock in: they did very well on both counts. Both Mollitor & Trappeur were higher volume than the Superguide, so noticeably warmer.
That was one of the nice things about leather; more versatile. My mistake was not popping for a double boot, or getting into Supergators early enough…
I think a pair of Habeler Superlights with the Aveolite liner and non-steel shank (wood/fiberglass?) would’ve been nice to try.
Now both my hands and feet get really cold (wait: so does my nose, crotch, face and everything else) so what little dabbling I still do with ice climbing, I use a Lowa plastic boot from the late 80s, the second-generation Civetta (remember the earlier Civetta were leather?) and on top of that it is augmented with a thermoform liner, I also use an overboot and heat packs as well!!!
Of all the earlier full bore plastic boots I think that one climbed rock the best; not nearly as clunky as Koflach. It had a narrow toe box; I’m told that is called a “French Toe”
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Thanks Tar, glad to be here!
Tar sez..
"Who made the first bent-shaft tools?"
This thread brings up all sorts of stuff I have been thinking about lately. One source, Grivel's web site, gives credit to the bent shaft to the EBOC.
Boots? Where in hell can you still buy new Super Guides?!
Your teasing us aren't you.
My first look at Koflachs was at the bottoms of Gary Silver's soles while he was breaking trail between the ice falls on Slipstream. Gary was always really fit but man he was trucking that day. He'd soloed the Swiss route on Le Courtes that fall and bought his Koflachs in Cham before they were available in the US or Canada. I was still climbing in my Haderers with a insulated Supergaiter. The system was warm but must have weighted in at 7# a boot. Gary's less than 6 for the pair. I had a serious case of lust.
Bought mine at REI. Made the 600 mile rt drive to Seattle just to get them. Broke the first pair of shells 5 years later but have my second pair (white) I have on on right now :) Just checking, you know.
I have just about every current ice boot Sportiva makes and still none of them fit as well as the Haderer. And few of them are as warm or climb as well for me as the Haderer or the original Koflachs, boats they were.
Heat pacs are the "hot" ticket. Seems loosing circulation isn't something that we just read about anymore. Some of the the newest fast and light boots really do climb well (sticky rubber and all) but my feet need a little more insulation. Big boots these days really are BIG. The Spantik has just about dbl the exterior volume as my original Koflachs do. The Koflachs with a foam liner is lighter. The Spantik is a good bit warmer but they are pretty clunky as well.
Crampons? Read above that by 1972 they had crampon bindings out and "working". MTN Magazine was one of the few connections for us to modern euro gear. (still have my collection as well) I remember seeing the cable system and buying a a pair at some point. But in the fall of '78 Gwain and I found a single Stubia with a binding on it between the Wet Cave and the base of the Difficult Crack. That discovery ended my need for crampon bindings for years.
I finally did buy a set of the last "Chouinard" rigids with a clip on system by Salewa in '85. They worked extremely well. Took a while before the plastic boots caught up with what was needed for welts though. The first white Koflachs I cut the toe groove in myself with a dremel. Bit thin but seemed to work OK.
Played with a bunch of new and old crampons last winter on a modern boot. ( Batura in this case) Pretty hard to beat the original Chouinard design on steep hard ice. It still out performs just about anything out there on pure ice. Plus it is lighter.
I'm sure Doug and others would really appreciate the super soft tops in most of the newest rigid alpine boots for French technique. Myself, I still like all the support I can get and a some what rigid ankle. Newest boots sure do a nice job of stretching your calves out though.
Funny rereading all the old stuff on the beginning of "modern ice climbing". Much the same is being said again now about "modern mixed." One more time, man the tool maker, has made climbing a whole lot easier and safer for the next bunch of us.
|
|
jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
|
|
Gotta say this thread is one of the coolest reads on ST. I don't have time to read all the article reprints and recollections right now...bookmarking for posterity.
Thanks to all. Makes me wish I had more than 30 years of memories to call up. From when climbing was more adventure and less sport.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Don Jensen. Friend, mentor, creative gear designer, and the driving force of Palisades climbing in the Sixties. Which, now that I think of it, made him the dominant High Sierra climber of that era, the era that ushered in a flowering of new technical routes that peaked in the Seventies.
When I met him, '66 or '67, he already had an odd puffy spot on one lip where it was torn in an Alaskan crevasse fall far beyond the help of stitching, and sometimes a little mustache. It didn't detract, though, from that boyish enthusiasm. Unlike Dave Roberts, I recall Don as more small and wiry. Powerful with big shoulders, sure, and he always seemed to be bursting out of his knickers with sheer physical energy. Something innocent about that energy too. Coming from Yosemite, it seemed distinctly different from the Camp 4 mainstream -- barely emerged sufficiently from provincialism at that point to even be seen as a mainstream. It wasn't until '69, after all, that Mountain 4 published a Yosemite issue.
It's odd, maybe, that I don't recall Don ever going to the Valley. Grew up in Walnut Creek, and I know he got as close as Fresno, because it was after he gave a slide show there about Alaska that Joan came up to talk to him. They were married in the Palisades and had a wedding feast on the Banquet Boulder, a fine block of erratic granite just off the trail in the idyllic meadow of Cienega Mirth just below Lon Chaney's old stone cabin.
But then again avoiding the Valley had been something of a pattern among Eastside alpinists. Clyde did it, kind of gruffly disdaining the place, and so had Smoke Blanchard.
On the other hand, climbers who started out in the Valley had always come up to the high country, beginning with John Muir and the boys from the Whitney Survey, and notably the crew in 1931 who first wielded the rope in California: Eichorn and Dawson and Brower and Richard Leonard. When they stormed into the Palisades that August it was obvious what peaks had been bugging them, like Thunderbolt, just beyond what they might solo. Later Harding broke out of the Gulch to climb Conness and the epic 8000 vertical of NE ridge on Williamson.
Further out on this tangent, I notice strong skiers in that progression too, from David Brower to Allen Steck. Don Jensen had skis in the Palisades too, though his rig was far out of the mainstream. Three feet long, a crampon-style binding I think, and permanent skins. Pretty utilitarian, but they gave him full freedom of the place when he roamed the range during the late spring, quite alone.
Yes, on one level he was just training for Alaska. But it was quickly obvious that he loved the Palisades for themselves. Built paper-mache relief models of both the Palisades and the Alaska Range. And he made up a second pair of those unique skis to take clients in for big climbs like the Twilight Pillar on Clyde Peak -- probably the most outstanding climb in the entire South Fork -- and even bigger traverses. He had spotted several bivouac caches just down off the backside of the crest in Kings Canyon NP. It's more than a day's stout travel just to get to those spots, and here he was setting them up with a pair of sleeping bags to be able to drop off the ridge with a client. No one since has done that level of guiding, let alone climbing, in the remote South Fork, and the location of his caches vanished with a lot of his lore of the climbs themselves when Don lost it on black ice on his bicycle and slid headfirst into a stone wall while a Postdoc in Mathematics in Scotland in the early 70s.
If Don had survived, I venture to say that the tone of that Golden Age of High Sierra development that flowered from his Palisades era into the Seventies would have ended up with more of an alpine flavor than the mood of more pure rock climbing in an alpine setting that actually developed. More winter ascents of the hard climbs, just for starters.
Don set a vigorous tone at the Palisades School of Mountaineering. He put up many of the FAs of the Celestial Aretes on Temple Crag, for instance, with a hand-picked client out of the weekly classes. And the Celestial Aretes -- his name, his vision -- have to stand out as the most prominent centerpiece of the Sierra part of his legacy.
Now that Bob Swift -- Swifty -- has joined our campfire, I hope he will fill in some of the transition at the Palisades climbing school, then known by its original name Mountaineering Guide Service. Larry Williams started it in I think the late 50s, and it was the first, and for over a decade the only, commercial climbing school in California. The Sierra Club's Rock Climbing Section, where I learned to tie-in in 1958, was the other big venue. I missed by two weeks the chance to meet Larry before he augered in off the Bishop runway, trying to bump start the second engine of his twin-engine plane. Bob Swift was the bridge from Larry Williams to Don Jensen. He was Chief Guide when I showed up, and I vividly recall leading a second rope behind Bob in my apprenticeship, including the East Face of Whitney.
It would be interesting to hear more about the early tone set by Larry Williams. Swift himself, who had been on the FA with Harding of the East Buttress of Middle in 1954 and of YPB with Steck in '52 -- not to mention the first American FA of an 8000-meter peak, Hidden Peak in 1958 -- was a classically calm and steadying influence to balance Don Jensen's energy and enthusiasm, as he burned onto new ground.
Winding down for now...
Doug
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Dane Burns said:
"Boots? Where in hell can you still buy new Super Guides?!"
This link appeared in a thread a while ago:
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/galibier/super-guide/review/4766/
I had a better one; an actual ordering page in English.
Sadly I didn't keep the better link as I thought I had (not that I would actually order a pair, but for anecdote’s sake...).
So just now I found the current French catalog, in some sort of Euro/PDF format:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.com/
Terre > Produits > Chassures > Alpinisme > Alpinisme et Technique > 4 page turns right…
VOILA!!!
Yup!
And they give the weight in my size: 42
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
|
Thanks for the reflections on Don. Definitely a brilliant but tragically short life. His bizarre demise was another twist in the Huntington-Harvard Route saga. Who knows what he would have bitten off?
I went looking in Mountain of My Fear for a shot of Don only to find that he was the cameraman, hence nothing. I believe there is a photo of him in slings wearing one of his frameless packs in the 1972 Chouinard catalog. Can't find mine.
Don't leave out Keeler's on Batso's backcountry hitlist.
Pretty hard to imagine Norman Clyde having a great time in the Valley! LOL
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Quick note, as I see lots of new activity.
Welcome Dane! I love the way the sweep of your experience fills us in all the way to the present. I'd been wondering how the latest generations of ice tools perform compared to our mouldering recollections, so thanks for that. It would be fun to get back on ice at least enough to feel that new gear. Monopoint crampons? They seem intriguing in a similar way to the action of a Hummingbird, which would swivel effortlessly if you sidestepped. I have had my hands on the new BD screws, which bite like razors compared to even their earlier ones. Amazing to set them without having to use your axe like a brace and bit for leverage.
YC took that ballsy shot of Tompkins soloing through spindrift (I think he said that was the tail-end of a small avalanche, which accounts for the hunkered-down posture) on their 1970 trip to Scotland noted by Alan Fyffe. He had a tiny point-and-shoot camera, and I've always thought that was his finest photo with it. There was a 3' x 4' blowup of it right in your face as you walked into the first GPIW store in Ventura.
looking again at all those classic shots of Scots at play, Yvon's image of Tompkins stands out in several ways. Starting with obvious water ice instead of rime. In spite of that, Tompkins looks rock-steady on those fine Chouinard crampons. I can't quite believe the locals persisted in making do with Salewas. Maybe they couldn't get Chouinard iron? They certainly don't seem to be using YC's axes or alpine hammers either.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
DR wrote of Don Jensen:
"Built paper-mache relief models of both the Palisades and the Alaska Range."
Most excellent histories you're penning for us here Doug!!!
I trust you save this stuff in a notebook, or file somewhere, being the consummate writer that you are...
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Save it? (gulp...)
I love that this stuff is all archived here. Feels so right for us to be jointly working the history. I know I'm learning a lot from the way our different points-of-view are coming together. But just in case, I guess I should back it up. Everything else on my computer is, including The Alchemy of Action book as it rolls out, which is my hot project these days. After years of dormancy and even fear of it, I'm actually writing on it almost aggressively. I look forward to sharing that too.
I wonder if C-Mac has this Forum backed up somehow? Don't know anything about servers, but collectively this place has become the best history and commentary on a lot of people, times, events.
When I was editing my articles for A Night on the Ground... my publisher Gilberto d'Urso of Mountain N' Air books came up with the wonderful idea of amplifying the sketches of people I had encountered. From Chuck Pratt to Tim Harrison to Don Jensen and Galen Rowell I did a lot of that, stalling the appearance of the book for a year or two in the process. Anyway, Gilberto's point has become a theme with me now that all these times are slipping into history. So I have written pieces about Pratt when he died (think I posted it up here, or I will again), and a long piece about Galen that got hacked short to fit into the Sierra Club's retrospective. I could put up the full version of that. And I think of the portrait of Steve McKinney. I have a down-the-road intention of putting all those into another selected works, along with such recent low points of my perspective on this life as becoming an unrepentant rap-bolter. But for the immediate future I'm excited about getting The Alchemy of Action to see daylight.
So thanks for the thought. I'll scoop the Don Jensen fragments off this thread right now, file em on my new, oversized hard drive, then back it all up.
And I'll return with more Don Jensen, I hope (you've got me thinking about where to find photos of him), although right now I'm packing to head to Kirkwood to get in some sliding. Some of us have to commute to our snow these days (sigh...) and my kids have new skis. Not sure if I'll have connectivity up there.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
No doubt.
I just burn through memories and pictures here at a rapacious pace.
I scan old slides and photos and only resize them for use here on the forum. They are in my photo bucket. But if I want anything truly archival I'll just have to scan it all over again!
And although I've saved a few things I've written here (in Word document) most of it just sits in the giant newspaper pile that is SuperTalko™
One word of warning (*warning Will Robinson warning*)
If you're creating your contributions solely in this reply window, every now and then when you press "post this reply" you will lose everything.
It has happened enough to me that I always either work in Word document fresh, or copy what I've written in this window to a Word document before I post it.
Another problem we face, is that things are not so easy to search here. So it is in here somewhere, but where?
Cheers,
Roy
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Warning well taken. Just because I haven't lost a post yet, I sometimes feel like "the innocent, the ignorant, and the insecure..."
When I get back I get a tutorial on Photoshop and maybe a copy of the program. Not only resizing shots for here, but also squiggling red lines onto walls. Got a TR on a FA for you guys hanging since September...
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
This is all great stuff - thanks! I started climbing in 1971, with a ash-shafted 1950s style ice axe which I bought at REI in Seattle. In 1972 I went on a trip to the Adamant Range with Leif Patterson and others, and was exposed there to the first version of Chouinard rigid crampons - Leif had had to get them rewelded once or twice. Plus the first Chouinard ice hammer, and the hammer-axe. The thing with a head that looked like an axe, but with a hammer handle.
Leif did a great deal of ice climbing and technical mountaineering, and so tended to be well equipped. His Chouinard ice axe is a classic.
The less said about 1970s era ice screws and such, the better. The Salewas were fine, but hell to place and remove. I can't remember how many times I carefully chipped out a tiny hole, gingerly placed the screw in it, tapped it a few times, and started cranking it in - only to have it fail to bite, or worse still blow out after a few turns. Wart hogs were at least a bit easier to get in.
And then all that fun with double leather boots, over boots, super gaiters, and so on.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Thanks again for such a warm welcome here Doug!
I suspect there are a lot of us in the same situation on this thread. I was very influenced by the first three Chouinard catalogs and their articles. Having a discussion and getting to read Doug's and other's posts here on ST is a real treat. I've never gone through a talus slope since without thinking about that article...and how Doug's feet survived running through them in EBs.
David Robert's early writings (and Don Jensen's actions) lead me to my first Alaska trips, to the North side of Deborah in '76 and Huntington in '78.
Hearing about Don Jensen's back ground is really fun and enlightening. I had always figured that he was from the East Coast for some reason. But coming from such a long back ground on the east side of the Sierra kinda blew me away. Huntington makes a lot more sense now even though it was years ahead for its time. As does the problems on Deborah and the choss.
That Jensen owned and used a Terro, brings a smile to my face.
Only place I knew to find them (or Helly Hensen pile) was Swallow's nest in the U District in that tiny little hole in the wall shop. What a great time to be climbing! There was a time if you climbed hard ice or alpine in the NW, good chance you either knew them or knew someone they climbed with.
Fun to again reread the different perspectives on curved and drop gear. With reverse curved tools taking over the technical ground I read somewhere that the "curved" pick was the answer to technical ice. In reality it was hooking that won that race not the angle of the picks.
For an old guy like me using the new leashless tools was a eye opener. Biggest adversion I had was using them on rock. I'd have hissy fits every time I smacked one of my piolets into rock on thin ice. Now you go looking for it and the tools actually can take it all in stride.
Only took me 20 years to get over that adversion and finally actually want to put a tool on rock! Never thought I'd ever get excited about winter climbing again. Last winter one of my old partners hauled me out for a week of water ice. Sketchy first couple of days just following. But by the end of the week I was leading comfortably again..all with less effort, more safety while being much more comfortable physically. I was dumb founded.
That a good leashless tool made climbing easier, warmer and truely just more fun was really hard to believe.
This thread just gets me even more excited about getting out again next week!
Now I just need to hunt down those Super Guides :)
Thanks GUYS!
english link
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://193.252.114.148/AUVIEUXCAMPEUR/gp/asp/sous_categories.asp%3Fcodctg%3D2287&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsup%2Bguide%2Btrad%2Bgalibier%2Bboot%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26sa%3DG
(edit)
Thanks for starting a great thread Steve and noting Michael Kennedy's post. Geezus, then I took a look around the forum and saw some of the guys posting here. What an amazing historical archive.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
|
On another thread, Michael Kennedy posted fond memories of thawing Salewa tubes inside of his clothing in order to clear them!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
|
Or crotchcicle....
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Fine reading here. Thanks to DR, Tarbuster and all
DR-
I also disagree with your early comments in this thread on Hamish McInnes’ terrordactyls. Yes, you bashed your knuckles when you used them ( I still have the scars to prove it), but when it came to vertical ice, they were superior to Chouinard tools. The key advantage was that they were easier to remove than the curved picks, and this was welcome in balancy situations. And with a practiced flick of the wrist, you learned to spare the knuckles a bit.
This is me using them on the FA of the Dru Couloir Direct in 1977, photo by Tobin.
Also, there was another reason we moved away from Chouinard picks when I was ice climbing in the seventies and it was mentioned above by Steve. We knew of several instances where Chouinard ice axes (and crampons also) had snapped while in use and this was an unnerving prospect As a result, we sometimes threw an extra ice tool in the pack, just in case.
That being said, Chouinard’s curved picks were excellent, especially on delicate ice. This is the Swiss route on Les Courtes in 1976, which was a very dry, thin year. Chouinard bamboo axe and lightweight ice hammer Photo: Mike Graham.
Also note the Rivendell pack in the last photo.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 01:10pm PT
|
Great post Ricky. Would you mind fleshing out that Dru Couloir Direct experience? You may have done so already in the Stonemaster Stories. Big time route to bag!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Steve,
I'll do that in another thread some time, so as to keep the drift reasonable.
Rick
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
I am nearly overwhelmed by all the recent information posted here. What motivates me to reply: is the incredible number of memory links I have to many of the last 25 or so postings. I have to contribute.
I bought into and eventually owned a climbing, ski, and backpacking shop in Moscow Idaho and was the local gear source and a popular climbing knowledge resource for U of Idaho and Washington State University climbers 1973-83.
I was able to meet and or climb with, through sponsoring “climbing slide shows” or attending trade shows, a fair number of the “big name climbers” of the 1970’s.
Don Jensen: In 1976 in company with recent poster Dane Burns: Gwain Oka, Chris Puchner, & I flew off to Alaska to attempt Mt. Deborah. David Roberts wrote a book about an epic failed adventure on Deborah with Don Jensen; that had helped inspire us. We were going to climb the then unclimbed North Ridge of Deborah. In our cockiness, we were able to look at reports of the 20 or so expeditions that had failed to climb a new route on Deborah since Becky and Harrer did the South Ridge in 1954, and ignore the facts.
We flew in from Talkeetna with our pilot: the legendary Cliff Hudson. He flew us over the steep avalanche-covered canyon that descends under Deborah’s North Face and looked back to say “I wouldn’t go in there if I was you boys”. After climbing 3,700 vertical scary feet up a northern spur peak to get to the start of the North Ridge of Deborah, we retreated. We did push a new very ballsy route up the north side of its neighbor Mt. Hess. From Hess, we got a close look at the dreaded East ridge of Deborah that Don Jensen did not climb. We then had a epic retreat after a storm hit us near the summit of Hess (used up a lot of luck that night). Cliff was a few days late picking us up, food was running low, and we started looking at maps and thinking about walking out. It did not look like a sane alternative. Of course, Don Jensen and David Roberts did walk into and out from the East Ridge.
At the end of the trip, at age 28: I decided I had used up most of my expeditionary luck and tried to stay on safer routes after that. (Dane did not feel unlucky, and went on many more expeditions after Deborah).
Timeline note: the North Ridge of Deborah was climbed in July 1976 and its North Face got climbed the next year-1977. I profoundly respect those very brave (and slightly insane) men!
Chris Puchner, Dane Burns, Ray (Fritz)Brooks, Gwain Oka: in front of Cliff Hudson's plane. N. side Mt. Deborah May 1978
The middle section of the North ridge of Deborah from our high point at 9,700 Ft, on the northern spur peak of Deborah, after an “interesting” day & night of snow, ice and rotten rock climbing.
The upper part of the North Ridge of Deborah.
Jensen Packs. I still have mine from Rivendell Mountain Works, Driggs, Idaho. I climbed with it from 1973 to about 1977----when I replaced it with a Lowe pack. If you packed it carefully----it carried great (even up to 55-60 lbs). Unfortunately, it took a long time to pack carefully and those with Lowe packs were escaping the negative event when I was still packing. I don’t believe the Chouinard rip-off, the Ultimate Thule was nearly as well made.
Haderer leather boots and Chouinard Supergators. The Chouinard Supergators idea was borrowed from Peter Carmen & Rivendell Mountain Works. Based on very positive cold weather experience with Supergators----I wore mine to Alaska in May 1978. I think the other 3 guys took double boots. I remember worrying, but had adequately warm feet. I broke down and bought plastic tele-boots a few year back: otherwise: leather rules.
Chouinard Crampons: I bought a pair in 1971 or 72 and climbed happily on them for years. On the 1978 Deborah trip we climbed a lot of thin crusted snow over ice. I took a lot of minor slips while front-pointing and got a little nervous about my abilities. On our return from the trip: I finally looked at how far the front points stuck out from my boot soles. It was about ˝”. I had filed them so many times that they just didn’t protrude far enough to do the job in those conditions. Bought SMC’s. They never fit great, but did the job.
John Cleare: Royal Robbins talked him into a U.S. slide show circuit in 1975? He showed up in Moscow, ID on a Friday with a terrible hangover and spent the weekend. Gave a great show, told classic British climbing stories at the mandatory drinking session afterwards, and did light rock-climbing. He came back for another session in a year or two. He was absolutely the best person I ever sponsored slide shows for. To my astonishment: he tracked me down last year, asked permission to use one of my Deborah photos in Stephen Venable’s book “Meetings with Mountains” and then sent me money for it. John!------you are a gentleman.
Hummingbirds: I was not doing a lot of waterfall climbing in the 70’s, since Moscow, Idaho did not have much nearby, but every winter we would take off to Baniff to do a drinking, skiing, waterfall-climbing week. I met Dane Burns there in 1974 while climbing the standard: Cascade Couloir. As I started climbing steeper and longer waterfall pitches, I could not figure out how to stop on near vertical ice and place protection while using Chouinard Piolet and Alpine hammer. The Hummingbird, or rather two of them solved it. I had a wrist loop from a hole I drilled through the fiberglass shaft (which was later profoundly discouraged by Lowe) and then the webbing coming out the bottom of the shaft could be clipped to my Whillans Harness. I could place both Hummingbirds solidly in waterfall ice, rest on them and my front points and place screws with my Chouinard Alpine Hammer. It felt totally safe until my sub-conscious finally screamed: “You’ve used up all your luck.” That was about 1983 and I haven’t ice climbed since.
Salewa tubes clogging: I had read an article in Mountain in 73 or 74, that the Brits would put the tubes down their shirts to thaw the ice out, but I could not really believe myself doing such a masochistic thing. In 1974 on 2nd pitch of Cascade Couloir, I could not get a clogged Salewa tube to screw in. They melted out quickly inside my shirt and I hardly minded the trickle of ice-water.
Warm, dry rock. I can keep climbing that stuff forever. Thanks, Fritz
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Unkie Ray! Damn, it is good to hear from you!
Fun times, hu? Your pics just floored me! Deborah was our centenial year, 1976. I remember how pissed my Dad was about the collect call home on the radio phone through Fairbanks. You and Gwain the "old guys" 28? Me, 22. Chris? You made that trip possible for me and many more later..thank you.
Easy to get the dates mixed up. Took me several months in bed last spring from a ground fall just to figure out and write down what tools I'd used, when and where.
Gwain and I were both still using single boots on Deborah, custom done, zippered and insulated with pile, super gators. Gwain was in the Trappeur "Deavasoux"? I'm sure that isn't the spelling of the French alpinist that they were named for but it was the boot with covered laces. Me in "my" Haderers that came 2nd hand through Roskelly.
You were the only other guy I ever met that had a pair. Chris was in Galibier dbls.
I had scored a pair of Galibier Makalus from you but they never fit well so didn't get used much.
I think between Gwain and I, we bought 3 Jensens from you. Two Gaints and one regular. I ended up buying two more over the years. 5 out of a thousand total packs produced I read some where. Just sold my last recently on Ebay for the silly price of $340. Amazing design and very well made in comparison to what else was available.
Too many time lines on this thread...too many questions unanswered :)
Rick and Tobin's amazing season in the Alps? Love to see and hear more about that one myself.
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
Lurking and love'n it ;)
That's right I had forgotten...
The original Super Gaitor was the 'Carmen Super Gaitor'
Salewa tubes inside the clothing to ease core removal, Yep !
Even the first Chouinard screws with their supposed core cut smaller than tube ID would need the treatment once in a while when it was really cold.
I remember the trick was, if there was any core left from placement then the second, if they removed the screw quickly and immediately smacked out the tube, it would clear easy from the friction created at removal. But leave it for a minute or two and it would just ice up again immediately.
Birds...
Way cool for hard ice traverses.
I always thought it was so neat the way you could place them and rotate the placement as you moved across the traverse.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
|
Ricky-Yours is the sort of drift that STers are more than happy to faceplant in! This thread is a keeper. Spindrift on!
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
|
|
Here are the tools we used for an early (1978) ascent of Provo Canyon's Stairway to Heaven.
From L to R...Lowe Hummingbird, Roosterhead, Hummingbird, Forrest Molner III, Stubi Hidden Peak, Porterdactyl & MSR ice ax.
Jim Dockery leading the last (5th) pitch
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
|
Nice shot!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
RE. my Mt. Deborah Timeline. Dane Burns is right! We were there in May 1976, The North(Northwest)Ridge was climbed in July of 1976 (Article in 1977 AAJ) and the awsome North Face in early May 1977. Its ascent is described in the first article in the 1978 AAJ. I have also corrected my original post timeline.
I forgot to mention that the Jensen pack fit very closely and well for climbing, even with a heavy load. Photo is me on Cascade Couloir, by Baniff, in 1974. Ultimate Helmet?, Chouinard Piolet and Alpine hammer, Chouinard Foamback Anorak, Dbl-boots, and Chouinard crampons.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
|
|
And, it appears, Dachstein mitts. Don't forget the Dachsteins.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Still have a pair of Dashteins. Any ideas on where to find replacements? And, the Jensen pack has been along on every 14er in CA.
Metal hardware replaced with lighter plastic though. The unwailed cordoroy back was a bad idea, but otherwise the perfect climbing pack.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
A bit more on Deborah. Came back from a quick trip to Nepal in '77. To make some cash I took a job for the summer with US Borax in SE Alaska.
Typical mining camp in the middle of no where we were flown into.
Couple of weeks after being there you get to know each other pretty well. One of the locals tells me a new guy in camp had just done Deborah...."sure he did I say". "No, really, guy's name is Carl and I think he did the NW ridge you guys tried."
Fook me running...who the hell had even heard of Deborah in '77?
It turns out Carl Tobin had just started working in camp and had indeed just done Deborah. His stories of watching the guys finish the N. Face route as caped aliens was hilarious. No typo, "caped aliens." I'll let Dr. Carl retell that story.
I'm not at home to look it up but didn't Carl go back and be the first to finally get up Jensen's climb on the East ridge on Deborah in '83 with Cheesemond? Tells you some about were Jensen and Roberts were at in 1964......1964!
But back to Chouinard gear and catalogs?
How about some comments by Jack Roberts, Dale Bard, John Bouchard or some more from Rick? Just to name a few. That b/w catalog shot of Tobin on the Eiger direct with a short axe and alpine hammer was awe inspiring. Gordon Smith has written up his GJ climb with Tobin in a couple of places. Done with Smith's Terros and a borrowed set of Chouinard tools and hinged 'pons.
more here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=990
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=267108&v=1#x4023891
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Jack Roberts & Jim Donini post up some here on the forum as does ..... um,
Some ice climber dude named Jeff Lowe; they should blow it wide open!
I have to say the Dane Burns/Accomazzo/Fritz triumvirate + MoreAir contributions have really skyrocketed this thread well past gold to platinum status.
It will only be available on vinyl however, because that was the favored tool for savoring music in the bad old days.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
Dachstein Mitts! Also in the Chouinard 2002 catalog! Sorry for the oversight. Kept my hands warm summer and winter in the mountains. My understanding was: they were knitted oversize of 100% wool and then boiled down, in Austria. 1972 Chouinard catalog more-or-less says this as well. However the mitts were not "near waterproof", as the catalog asserts.
Retreated off Chouinard Route on Mt. Fay in the Canadian Rockies in a snowstorm in about August 1978. The ex-wife and I then down-climbed 3/4 Couloir in a driving rainstorm (was that the beginning of the end of our relationship??) and amazingly made it to the moraine without being hit by rockfall.
I strongly remember walking down the moraine shaking lots of water out of my Dachsteins for about 10 minutes. Hands were still warm! Fritz:)
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
|
|
I pull the Dachsteins out of that pack on the occasional BC adventure much to the chagrin of my youthful partners. They laugh until I let em know how happy my fingers are.
And about those wet Dachsteins - there are few odors so distinctive.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Still got 'em ........
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Nice shot of Rick again taken by some guy named Jack in '77 on the N face of the Droites. Whillians harness, Jensen pack, Chouinard and super gaiters?
Rick said:
"Yep. We had state of the art stuff then: Jenson Rivendell pack, Chouinard rigid crampons, (the kind that had an alarming tendency during that era to break), Chouinard ice hammers, and a Whillans harness. I had worn out my bamboo Chouinard ice ax pounding rock the previous summer, so I was using a new, Royal Robbins, all metal, orange model, as seen in this shot of me as Jack and I reached the Argentiere Hut. The Chouinard ice axes we used then also broke frequently. Later that summer, Tobin and I took to carrying an exra ice tool in the pack in the likely event of failure of a Chouinard ice tool."
Amazing the jewels hidden away here!
And something similar (gear wise not difficulty) from '75/'76 with two terro on Canadian ice.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
We used to stitch our initials on our Dachsteins, so we knew whose were whose. More for backcountry skiing - put a bunch of mitts in the drying rack and they're peas in a pod. And quite early on (1975?) we were sewing overmitts out of nylon, which helped keep them drier. As seen below - orange somethings (probably pack cloth) over Dachsteins.
There's something of a wool revival happening, in Norway anyway, for outdoor activities. Especially if it still has lanolin, it's quite water-repellent.
I have no good memories of thawing out ice screws inside my clothing. As though we weren't usually wet and cold enough already.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
The photos and accounts from Alaska,Canada and Utah are great. Love to hear more.
Back to the equipment of the day and the inspirational catalogue:
Here is a another shot of Tobin on the Dru. This shows his Chouinard supergaitors and Salewa crampons. He climbed pretty well in those flexible things!
As to the 1977 season, I did only one route with Tobin that summer. He then went on to do an amazing series of ascents, including four of the Alps’ great North Walls. I just finished writing a rather long and detailed account of Tobin’s time in the Alps and submitted it to Alpinist just prior to its demise. I hope to get it in print somewhere soon.
Rick
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
I'd gladly pay to read that article!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
|
Stonemaster Stories II- the sequel! JL- you pondering the next installment because Ricky already wrote at a couple chapters from the sound of it.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Hey guys just to continue the conversation...bunch of questions and a few observations. Sorry about the quality of the pics best I can do at the moment. May be Steve can rescan the Graham Tiso article from MT #31 his 2 earlier pieces (#17/#20) on ice gear/tools? Pretty please :)
Doug sez:
"A Climaxe would make a good collector's item, for sure, but they weren't so, uh, "hot" for climbing. Not enough heft, so they kinda wobbled and dinked around.......YC had a Climaxe at his beach shack that came out at low tide and was all scruffy from digging in the sand. He called it the Clam-axe."
Pretty obvious the Climax we all know and love was hand forged, fitted by Camp and a bit light in the head. Although there is a great pic of John Bouchard some where in my stack of CLIMBING mags with him on difficult mixed terrain..with the head or a Climax wrapped and an alpinehammer . I had assumed the wrap was to add weight but never bothered to ask John when I met him years later. I'll dig that pic up if Steve doesn't have time too.
BUT....this one is obviously hand forged and attached the same way as the alpine hammers were (BD wall hammers still are) and has some serious weight behind it. That I might have used if I'd ever seen one. Never did.
Doug were these the first and never marketed to the public?
pic is from MT #32 1974 in a Joe Brown ad.
Next up? Chouinard axe, the Terro and the Curver? History is writen by the guys who write. They aren't always accurate for various reasons.
This is from an ad in MT #18 Nov 1971.
Clearly a ash handled Chouinard Piolet, "finished" Terros and what is obviously a a "Curver" in everything but name, but actually a Nanga Parbat by Stubia. My parner used one for a couple of seasons so I knew it well.
Remember by several accounts 1970 was the "magic" year Terros and the Piolet were introduced to the public.
Chouinard tells of having the Charlet factory make him a 55cm curved pick axe at some point during or after the fall of 1966. His (YC) alpine hammer was introduced commercially in '67 according to the catalog and the Piolet in '69. So my guess is it took awhile for the Charlet factory to come around. Might be a reason Interalp made the Piolet. Bet there is a story there.
Doug sez:
"All these shots show much later and more evolved McInnes tools than the ones I was thinking of from the late 60s. The blades on these look to be about one-third the thickness and of a high alloy. I'd like to swing those tools, and I bet they would work just fine........Certainly by the next catalog the date of introduction of the Piolet is listed as 1969. And by October of that year Yvon delivered to me on the edge of the Palisade Glacier the hickory-handled 70 cm one (and that hand-forged Alpine Hammer) that we put to good use on the V-Notch the next day.......He was very intent on letting me know in no uncertain terms about Scottish primogeniture of the droop. Others listening agreed. May have even said that YC had come through Scotland to take in their development. "
Point to a much later Terro from what I read. Does sound like they were a 70/71 winter introduction. And actual production started in '69 on the piolet.
Someone correct me if I am wrong on this one.
I believe this is either Cecchinel or Jager on the Dru Couloir, DEC '73. If not it is at least suppose to be the tools they used by the MT #33 account. I have both a Simond 720 and the much later Jaguar (see Steve's Simond pic above) and trust me the 720 wasn't much. The Jaguar was good competiton to the already out of poduction Chouinard Piolet. A Chouinard piolet was hard to fine even in Chamonix (none locally in the NW at that time) by the fall of '78. (More on the Simond tools later) The Simond long alpine hammer is light in the head but is long enough to give a good swing and stick in every thing by hard ice. Their Simond Crampons btw were close to the current Grivel G12s design and hinged.
So we know Simond and suspect Charlet weren't making deeply curved axes unless......you believe this:
This from Mike Chessler's web site..
"And if the climbers ice climbed, they used Chouinard Ice Axes and Crampons. Chouinard copied the steep drooping pick of European hand made axes, that planted firmly in hard ice or Neve, and made balance and esthetics primary."
And last one of Tiso's articles.
Ice dagger? The front cover shot of Chouinard in the early catalog shows him using a dagger and an axe. Page 80 and 173 in CLIMBING ICE shows YC in the same or really similar togs. Hickory handled hammer of some type clearly visable on page 173. A ice screw barely showing as are two faily pins on his left side. Looks like the dagger is a long pin to me :)
Doug again:
"Somehow I've always thought the ice pin in YC's hand on that catalog cover was not a warthog but a way old-school one that looks basically like a very long vertical blade pin. Somebody gave me one recently; when I'm posting again, I'll show it off."
I work in metal every day and the history and design of our toys has always interested me. Always figured there was a little more synergistic development of ice tools easrly on but never really bothered ot look into it in any detail.
My guess is that anyone who got a "the steep drooping pick of European hand made axes" was getting it from the Charlet factory based on Chouinard's 1966 design request. But having the tools doesn't mean you have the insight on how to use them.
I think the discussion on the Demasion route '73 via the Walker (done in winter as a rock climb) and Cecchinel's routes on the Dru '73 and Grand Pilier d'Angle '71 show that Europeans were for the most part still trying to "rock" climb. Chouinard on the other hand was well past that by 1966 and thinking "ICE".
And did I mention this kid was the "shit"? 4th ascent of the Harlin route on the Eiger, Oct '77 in 5 days. That is some proud old school stuff in my book.
|
|
Michael Kennedy
Social climber
Carbondale, Colorado
|
|
How about a couple from the first ascent of the Ames Ice Hose (Feb. 1976).
Steve Shea and Lou Dawson (above) and me (below) after spending the night in the woods atop the route. Note Supergaitors, Dachstein mitts and sweater, Foamback.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2009 - 11:58am PT
|
Hey Michael! Those were the days of leather and wool and hard work hauling it all around with you! Nice shots. Makes me want to toss a few ice cubes in my drawers while drinking my coffee this morning!
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
In the mid-70s the Simond and Charlet-Moser tools seemed to work better in the fall and winter ice found around Chamonix than other gear that we frequently used. The Chouinard tools including the recently introduced Zeros were harder to place than the French tools. The French tools had a thinner cross section and were made of harder steel. The Simond tools had slightly less curve than the Chouinards, and the Charlets, a bit more.
|
|
TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
Climbing Magazine issue no. 34
John Bouchard a short distance from the ice head wall, Grand Charmoz North Face.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
I want that rucksack!
It is a Karrimor for sure, maybe Whillans model.
I had use of one for a time, 'pulled the pattern and made a number of copies. Only an approximation though, as I could never source all those cool materials: snaps for the flap similar to car topping industry stuff, wool felt shoulder straps, very burly canvass...
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Hi Todd,
For those who might not recognize the name, Todd Eastman did the first ascent with Tobin of the Sorenson/Eastman Couloir on the Dent du Requin in September of 1977. He also did an early repeat of the Super Couloir on Mont Blanc du Tacul, that same season.
Rick
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
|
Proud ticklist Todd! What are your recollections of those classic ice routes?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
|
I have been looking for a shot of Don Jensen's face and found one reliably in Chris Jones' Climbing in North America, 1975.
Harvard Mountaineering Club group to Wickersham Wall, 1963. From left: Don Jensen, John Graham, Dave Roberts, Pete Carman, Rick Millikan, Hank Abrons and Chris Goetze. John Graham photo.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
|
While we have Kennedy in the house! Here is the story behind the bleary bivi shot that he posted earlier. From Glenn Randall's superb Vertigo Games, 1983.
Bring back any memories Michael?
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
|
From later catalogs, red Chouinard rope, Whillians, jumars, Chouinard wall pack, green Shoenards, the required rugby shirt, and a schizo hat. Etriers made according to directions on page 54. This is the 2nd sunrise, 2 full days out on 6 snickers, 2 quarts of water and a 150 ft leader fall on a body belay, late afternoon the previous day.
Canada. The sun had been out all day, soft, plastic ice...now we are in shade, sun is gone, with temps dropping to -30 rather quickly. Something we had not experienced before. Down vest, (wet by now) wool shirt, Scotish Knickers from Chouinard, a really big boiled wool hat, Dachstein mitts, Super gaiters, 1st gen chouinard rigids, alpine hammer and 55cm hickory axe, Trappeur boots, Salewa tubes without slots, worth less Charlet Moser screws and a wart hog. I am getting seriously cold and figure we should at least document our impending doom. My partner is even more pissed because he doesn't want to stop and take a picture of my sorry ass. He had thoughtfully brought along his down jacket. His puffy little piece was a hand sewn Frostline kit he was very proud of, come to think of it but his feet had long ago lost feeling in Superguides and a Millet knee high canvas gaiters.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
|
Nice bivi-sized wool hat!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
|
Just ran a few items through an inflation calculator for fun.
On the 1972 catalog price list:
Piolet 35. (by 1974 they were $50 or $227 today)
alpine hammer 18.
Haderer boots 115.
Trappeur boots 64.
wall hammer 16.
With inflation today:
Piolet 35. = $180
alpine hammer 18. = $92.
Haderer boots 115. = $590
Trappeur boots 64. $329
wall hammer 16. = $82
Vintage bamboo Piolet on Ebay $150 and up
Vintage alpine hammer on Ebay $50 and up
New BD wall hammer @ retail $100
New Galibier Super Guide boot @ retail $400 plus shipping
Sportiva Evo Nepal @ retail $475.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
|
Necessity is the mother of a better ice tool...YC from Climbing Ice, 1978.
|
|
richross
Trad climber
gunks,ny
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
|
Le technique francaise por le homme francaise. On Ice and Snow and Rock---none better.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 18, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
|
Photos by Ray Brooks
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
|
Please excuse the size but I thought some might want to actually be able to read this. There is more if anyone wants to see it.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2009 - 09:55am PT
|
I had a pair of Walker wool gloves and they were sweet! Reasonable for free climbing performance and warm as toast.
I wonder how many people ever used the cheater wire hole on the Crack' N'Ups?!?
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
|
Dane- those scans are TOO BIG! It is better to expand the text onscreen if you need magnification. My scanner has a 50% setting that I use. 100% and downloads are slow as molasses at every turn!
The people with dial up........yikes.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
|
Yep, dial up would really suck on this thread. I don't have anything inbetween, so smaller it is.
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
|
Do I see a wool balaclava up thread?
Ka-ching!
I remember seeing Yvon in that envelope hat he was wearing and thinking that was the schiznit. I finally found one at an XC ski shop where they were selling them to people who wanted to look like Bill Koch in the 76 Olympics.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
|
Oh ya, that is a wool balaclava, along with the Egge jacket and hood from the catalog update, with a bamboo piolet in the back ground as the sun comes up on an Alaska bivi.
Here is another with a foam back from the same trip.
photo by Ray Brooks
|
|
scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
|
Seeing that nobody seems to use those wool balaclavas
any more...
and that they're my favorite...
and that I lost my last one...
can anybody set me up?
|
|
scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
|
Thanks, Dane.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
|
Dane: You blog Diva!!-----thanks for crediting me for the last three Alaska photos you posted.
I swear: I will send you the CD of Deborah pics soon.
Fritz
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
|
Fitz...sorry man! Certainly not an intended slight. Happy to go back and credit you with the photos, past, present and/or any thing in the future :)
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
|
I've made that mistake as well ... what with the frenzied fun and all.
It's important to recognize that that darned edit button goes away after a bit of time, so changes are near impossible after that point...
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
|
I was looking at my hickory handled piolet this morning. Noticed it has a dbl set of teeth in the pick and 3 rivets in the handle and the single CHOUINARD script, which makes it a later production axe. Axe was purchased in late '76 or '77. Anyone know when they stopped building ash and hickory shafts?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2009 - 12:20am PT
|
I recall that those shaft options were replaced by the laminated bamboo but the date must be earlier than '76. Have to ask Tom about the switch.
Here is the house quiver of bamboo axes.
Left-Original Piolet from the early 70's with four teeth that I added by the shaft. Two crosspins.
Mimi's upside-down Zero and my Zero Northwall hammer.Three crosspins. The darker tools have been pine tarred.
Reverse stamp on the older Piolet.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2009 - 01:10am PT
|
What was sold in Europe may be different than what was made specifically for the american market and sold by Chouinard. I think that 1978-79 was the shift from bamboo to the blue fiberglass shafts. Ash was rarely seen in North America and hickory seem to have disappeared by 1974 and replaced with bamboo about then. Rexilon was available while the bugs were worked out of the bamboo. Oh those nasty cracks next to the tangs. It took skill not to break gear.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2009 - 11:21am PT
|
Grossman!
Front and center: clean your weapons soldier.
Maybe start with some cotton wadding with the polishing compound. (Never Dull)
Maybe amend the polish in the wadding with a plastic Scotch Brite to knock off the rust; or some extremely fine steel wool.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
|
Well change my name to Rusty! LOL
Definitely Scotchbrite time, when I can carve it out.
I don't recall a RR ice axe either. Just ropes, carabiners and shoes from him.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
|
I vaguely remember Robbins importing those orange axes...
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
|
Todd may remember better than I. But iirc, the axe Robbin's Mtn Shop (Mountain Paraphernalia) sold was made by "La Parade" and was the Rene Desmaison model. Hell for stout with a metal shaft/ plastic grip and a funky bump on the top of the head. All in day glow orange with a blue handle. I took a couple of them with me to SE Alaska on a surveying job in '77.
This is the hickory piolet I was thinking about. 3 rivet shaft, dbl teeth and 55cm. It was bought in England. Thanks for the observations.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jan 23, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
This one's for Rusty!
I mean, barely presuming to post here w/o so fine a grade of steel wool, let alone blueing...Sir!
Before any of out times, thank you, but here's an ice piton (50s?)
with a rock pin of the same era for comparison
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
|
Ahh, the era of drive-ins! The movies were gone by the time anyone really worked that one out. Nice one ,Doug.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2009 - 07:13am PT
|
I had that Forrest ice hammer, and a piolet along with the Chouinard Alpine Hammer. Dana Couloir was the first place I used them back in 1972 if I recall correctly. With Chouinard-Salewa cramps and Galibier Super Guides (great boots).
I had a Jensen pack also EDIT a green one.
Don't know what happened to all that stuff over the years, I know I sold some when hard up for money.
Still have my North Face Ibex sleeping bag from 1969.
EDIT
Still reading through this thread. I had a Simond Chacal. I thought it was cool and used it in Lee Vining.
EDIT
I had a pair of Trappeurs, heavy as a friggin' car, had a little 'gaiter-like' 'sleeve' or whatever you want to call it (cuff?) at the top. Only used them a couple of times.
Doug wrote: It's odd, maybe, that I don't recall Don ever going to the Valley. Grew up in Walnut Creek,.
Hey, I was born and raised in Walnut Creek and Lafayette. Was Jensen from there?
Don lost it on black ice on his bicycle and slid headfirst into a stone wall while a Postdoc in Mathematics in Scotland in the early 70s.
For some reason I always thought he was hit by a car while bicyling in Scotland. Regardless it was a loss. I met him once but I can't recall where, perhaps one day at the PSOM, but he wasn't instructing there when I went, at least I don't think so.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
|
From the 72 catalog.
Two pounds!!!!
|
|
marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
|
|
|
Jan 25, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
|
Damn, those are some beautiful tools! I love the new pick/adze of the silver BD Raven, but the cursive engraved name and bamboo/hickory/ash to metal contrast can't be beat. Those ice daggers, however...YIKES!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 01:21am PT
|
Always thought that Jensen shot was pretty artful.
2 pounds: hardly anything to it in terms of structure; in a way like monocoque automotive design, nothing in the way of framework, all exoskeleton.
That one looks like it has an arched zipper on the back side of the pack (up top), rather than along the back panel as all I had seen were fitted.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 02:09am PT
|
The first Jensen's I saw were all green and had a zipper on the front of the pack as pictured above from the catalog. The second version was rust colored and had a zipper next to your back. The Giant Jensens I saw were also rust colored and zip next to your back.
Ray's pack in the picture below has the same zipper placement.
Ray Brooks photo
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 10:46am PT
|
Let the zippers fall where they may... The Ultima Thule I recall carrying for years had a flap top.
Here's my take on the "most copied pack ever" or whatever. Designs evolve.
The Jensen Pack that made me sit up and take notice was a day pack he made for guiding on Temple Crag. Light nylon, same basic shape, late 60s. Well under one pound. Don also had an overnite alpine version, size of the Rivendell and Thule.
It was his patterns for that size that I gave to Larry Horton one day in Berkeley to launch Rivendell. He paid Don a royalty and eventually produced Don's Bombshelter tent too. Then became miffed at me for redesigning the pack until it became the Ultima Thule. But designs evolve, the Thule carried better and by then Don had died.
Back up a little. In the spring of 1970 I skied 36 days along the John Muir Trail and the Sierra Crest. Still the best expedition of my life. Carl "P-Nut" McCoy built our wonderful Hexcel ski prototypes for the trip. His girlfriend Claudia and I built two Jensen Packs and a Bombshelter that totaled five pounds. Each pack weighed 17 ounces and carried up to 70 pounds. They were the first really big Jensen Packs; I ballooned-out Don's pattern.
The packs skied superbly. The basic genius of Don's design was to get a soft pack to cling better to your back the tighter you packed it, instead of turning into a sausage that rolled its weight against your turn to slam-dance you onto the snow. Again.
And skiing even more than alpine climbing is the ultimate test of how a pack design will follow the motion of your back.
The hidden problem with the design, that only became obvious once I expanded it, was that its softness wouldn't support lift straps for the shoulder straps. Many cycles of evolving it into the Ultima Thule with Tom Frost's help and encouragement, made the bottom compartment wrap far more tightly around your hips and took more weight off your shoulders. But with big loads, not enough.
A fundamental limit of the design had been reached. And exceeded, I could tell every time I lowered a 60# load off of shoulders beginning to cramp. Don Jensen had tacitly pointed that out, I realized, by carrying all his really big loads in an external frame pack. Later, internal frames would bridge the difference, getting the load closer to your back than his Kelty, but also supporting those shoulder-stabilizer straps that would give relief to the tops of shoulder muscles.
See? The zippers and the rest of the stuff that holds the load mean nothing compared to how it is made to ride on your back. How you support it is the trick.
I later designed, on paper, a small frame element that would allow the Thule to grow shoulder-stabilizer straps. But by then packs with two internal stays were the state of the art, and I never built it. The internal frames would carry a big load all right, but they went careening off in their own wrong direction until you could heft a seven- or even eight-pound wonder. Even with a monster load, there's something just wrong about 10% or more of the load you're humping up the trail going into merely the sack to put it in.
Back to the Jensen, I read on the Internet that Rivendell produced a thousand of them over a decade. And hundreds of Bombshelters. (Sweet tent, btw, but tiny. On our ski trip I modified ski poles to hold it up and we only carried the ridgepole. Patterns on request, tho the state of that art has moved on from A-frames.) Someone in Washington is now reviving the original Jensen Pack design yet again. Sticking to tradition is honorable in its way -- it's the conservative path -- but don't get stuck; if Jensen were alive I'm sure he would have carried an Ultima Thule instead, because it made his own idea work better. And then like the rest of us he would have moved on to an internal frame. It's like the Einstein t-shirt I saw last night: "Life is like a bicycle. You have to keep moving forward or you'll fall over."
I hounded Wayne Gregory for years about weight, and even cooked the first carbon-fiber stays in my oven for his packs. He built me a custom lightweight for climbing Ama Dablam with Frost in 1979, but didn't sell anything light until after I had designed MontBell's Wishbone suspension packs 15 years later.
Now there are some more diverse ideas cropping up. Some really innovative, and some de-volutions that lock up your back. I'm sitting on an idea that I think could be the Next Big Thing, if any companies out there are interested.
Long live the genius of Don Jensen. I've written a bit more about him, but I'm waiting to find the photo to go with it and then I'll start another thread.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
|
Anyone remember the Millet 370s?
For the guys I started climbing with it was "the" climbing/skiing pack in the late 60s, early 70s.
You could get gear for a 3 or 4 days and a sleeping bag into one. Not that it carried all that well with a 1/2" tape waist band.
Same load of kit in a Jensen did actually carry pretty well. We all thought that was the brilliance of Jensen's design. Being difficult to pack was just something you learned to live with.
Guys I climbed with used the Giant Jensen, the GPIW Thule and the Yak pak to lesser and lessor degrees of satisfaction for even bigger loads. The first pack that would actually carry a bigger load to our satisfaction was the Lowe Expedition.
Easy mixed on Deltaform
Two Jensen's on a early winter ascent of Ptarmigan Ridge, Rainier.
And yet another Jensen on the NW Face of Half Dome.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
|
Sweet!!!
SAX MILLET: Alto or tenor?
Hey DR,
That was a cool break out of design history.
Wouldn't you say all that came to it's final apogee in the Dana Terraplane?
I'm gonna put some top shoulder pulls on my Jensen when I rebuild it; gotta have 'em.
That is an issue: hell on the levator scapula.
They do work on frameless rucksacks, as long as the load/size overall ratio isn't too aggressive. (well under the 60+ lb mark, like 30-35lb maybe)
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
|
Dana Packs seemed to be on the top of many folks lists. I never carried one, partly because they were so heavy and partly because I was designing and selling my own MontBell Wishbone packs against them. Mine weighed half and carried as well (less cush, more lively -- kinda like Tar's analogy of a monocoque race car) up to about 50 pounds. Then the big freighters like Terraplane worked better.
But if weight is one of your criteria I could never call it an apogee. Talking to the pack sales guys in shops, however, it was pretty obvious that Dana did the best marketing job in the industry. He went face to face with them, right at their own pack walls, clear across the country. They became true believers.
As a designer who was an active user and building a pack to move, part of my rap against Danas was to offer to compare waistlines with any designer in the industry.
|
|
marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 03:17pm PT
|
Tar,
Where's Ray(dog) Olsen? We need some free radicals in this thread.
DR--is the WishBone going to get a 21st century resurrection? What's new with MOS? Inquiring minds (with luggage fetishes) want to know.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
|
Luggage fetish? Maybe I don't want to know...
Boy I'd like it if someone revived the Wishbone. My packs are wearing out after only a few thousand miles. The patent should expire any day now. MontBell took its pack suspension off in a different direction soon after MontBell America, which I worked for, went out of business (mid-90s). It's still called Wishbone, but not the same.
MontBell Japan is bringing their products into Boulder, and distributing them to shops around the country. Which is great, because some of that gear is unbeatable.
My pack ideas are headed in a different direction. New frame, some of the same materials, super light, flexible. But I'm not actually building any protos, as I have a full-blown "portable hut" tent project in final development. I'm excited to finish that and see what happens.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
|
Ray is MIA at the moment...
But his ears might start burnin' in a couple few ...
|
|
F10
Trad climber
e350
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
|
Where's Ray(dog) Olsen?
Or do you mean,
Ray(FROG) Olsen ?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
|
One and the same.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
|
This thread needs a little humor…
Largo on Ice, (sorta):
Photo by Accomazzo
Bloody Mtn couloir maybe…
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
|
I saw a woman crossing the street just a few months ago, with a MINT blue one on her back. Just a couple models under the one Dane posted.
If I had more than two nickels to rub together I might've tried to run her down and make an offer...
Shoulda' just flat out purse snatched it.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
|
Largo on Ice.
Classic!
And unlikely.
Reminds me of...
OK, so there we are slapping a mockup of issue #3 or so of the fledgling Outside Magazine onto the conference table, right in front of the Big Cheese himself, Jann Wenner, the guy who started Rolling Stone and then started Outside in '77. Kinda funny, since he was completely clueless about the outdoors. Sure had a good sense of timing, tho...
It's the ice climbing issue. My piece on the FA of Ice Nine with Dale Bard is in it. And a Chouinard excerpt from Climbing Ice which is just about to hit the streets. The main cover headline reads "Chouinard on Ice."
So the mockup lands in front of Wenner. We all lean forward expectantly. He rocks back, looks up and says,
"What? Is he dead?"
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
|
Ha!
He might be if he stays on it too long...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2009 - 10:57am PT
|
Great story Doug! The cosmic joke of power and where it lands. Sometimes Excaliber, others a gull crap on the boardwalk!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2009 - 12:09am PT
|
A little more 72 for you!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2009 - 02:13am PT
|
The original Chouinard piolet and the original Jensen pack are two that have obviously stood the test of time. And why, out of thousands of similar designs produced those same two pieces are so sought after today.
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
French writer (1900 - 1944)
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2009 - 11:28am PT
|
Thank god for aesthetics and Occam's Razor for a clean shave!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 07:50am PT
|
Hi chaps, Mr Accamazzo in particular. I started ice-climbing with a Chouinard Frost - 60cm with a very pale wood handle(hickory or ash??) and a dinky little Salewa ice hammer (T shaped cross section for the pick!) Climbed things like the Chancer and Devil's Delight and Point Five and Zero and they worked fine. For me, though, Terrors were the bees knees ... great except for the bashed knuckles. If you got the rather odd swing correct - a downward pull with the knuckles hammering the ice - they worked great. Did the 2nd ascent of Bridalveil with your Mr Shea using terrors - that was fat, steep ice, was it not? Pick was way too soft, mind, and wore out very quickly. They had a tendency to stick, so we sharpened the top edges of the picks to 'cut' up and out. The axe was brilliant for going over the top of a bulge into powder snow but too light for hard ice. Often we carried two hammers and an axe, or at least THEY did - the folk with any money (not me). In 1978 I got hold of THE prototype Chacal from Luger Simond - He was going to make a straight drooped pick but I held the shaft of the axe while he cut holes in an ordinary curved pick blank reversed. Then he cut teeth and changed the angle of the end of the pick to make a point to penetrate the ice and lo, the first reversed banana pick. Worked brilliantly!! I still have my Dachstein mitts from the mid seventies, though I had to fight off the wife when she wanted to wear them to paint the house walls! Best mitts ever!!
Gordon Smith
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2009 - 11:03am PT
|
Welcome Gordon! Thanks for the gear tales. Any photos from your exploits back then? What did you start out with for crampons?
Ahh, the Dachstein mitts are sweet indeed! An extra pair on the outside was the little trick that got Whillans up Annapurna South Face in the bitter cold. I don't know if he shared his secret with Haston! Probably made the lad tough it out. LOL
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
|
Goggs! Sit down and share a pint!
And welcome home:) Hard to get some of my Amerikin brothers to tell a good story about alpine climbing BITD.
"I was so hungry I immediately ate it up even though it was years old!! And I didn't share it..."
You seem up to it, care to fill in the rest of the story?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
|
Sorry Mr Grossman ... too poor to own a camera in those days. Terry King took a few shots, though - one was posted here on a thread about climbing with a sack on - Gabarrou-PicardDeyme route on the Plan. I started off with a pair of stubai bent wire crampons (ha! bet you've never heard of them, but I managed to get up Vanishing Gully, Zero and Point Five in them!!) I had a pair of Chouinard rigids for a while but my boots were too bendy (Scarpa Fizroys) and they broke in the middle of the Droites NF. Did almost all my winter climbing and Alpine climbing with good old Salewa adjustables and a pair of Dolomite Major boots that weighed a TON (figuratively speaking of course)!
By the by climbing with Terrors required a very particular technique - you see videos of people thrashing with them and wondering why it took 7 smashes to get them to stick. Technique!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
|
As for you, Mr Burns, clearly you don't know how to spell ... Ameeerican is how it is spelt!! I now understand why you were calling me Gordie at UKC! I hated being called Goggs! As a climber I was always called 'Wee Jock' or Smithy. BTW I've submitted an article on my transition from climbing in Scotland to climbing in the Alps to the SMCJ called 'A Scotsman's Duty' and a complete rewrite of my article on the climbs I did with Tobin called 'The Paths to Glory' to the Harvard Review (trying to be Artsy Fartsy - so that one is not sooo much of a climbing story just for climbers)....that attorney chap Accomazzo has seen very early versions of both...You really must harp on HIM to get HIS Tobin article out - has Alpinist been reborn yet??
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
|
WELCOME to the Forum Wee Jock!
Great stuff ... carry on.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 01:11am PT
|
Alpinist is back!!!
And so is the odd couple-- YC & Layton Kor! One of my favorites from Climbing Ice.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 01:57am PT
|
Wee Jock - good to see you getting in your two bits. I hope all is well on the soggy isle. It has only been 30+ years since I've seen you though I did hear about a record descent off Ben Nevis that has yet to be broken...
Todd
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 02:04am PT
|
Todd, you sod. Was that you that I did some rock climbing with in the Alps in 1976? Blooming heck, you must be old!! Don't you start calling me Gordie!!!
cheers
Gordon
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 02:17am PT
|
Oh, and Todd I haven't been on that soggy isle for many, many years ... I lived near Santa Cruz, Calif for nearly 10 years and now swelter in the Philippines jungle. Not much opportunity for practicing my Technique Glaciere Francaise oot here, ye ken. As for that record breaking descent, what record breaking descent? I don't remember any record breaking descent ... just waking up in hospital being attended to by a very cute young nurse. They had to employ that cutest of young nurses to shave my leg all the way up to the wee jock before hacking it (the leg!) all open and sticking in some big bit of steel to keep it straight as an arrow (the left leg, ye dirty brute)!! Oh the strain of it!
Gordon
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 02:30am PT
|
Gordon, great to hear from you. Stay cool in the dank mists of the Philippines. I'm sure you are up to something good.
Todd
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 02:50am PT
|
Here is a question for guys like Rick, Todd, Gordon or anyone that has an opinion on it.
What tool or tools had the most influence (how ever you define that) on your own alpine/ice climbing BITD? Chouinard (curved), Terros, Chacal or something else?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 04:19am PT
|
Terrors. Used a Chacal for one route in the alps and one winter in Scotland and loved it - would have stuck with it if I hadn't quit climbing. I was quite happy with Terrors, mind you. Never had any problems with them except a little bit for the knuckle effect and they wore out so quick.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 11:47am PT
|
So, how was that Super Couloir?
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
|
You want an Alpine story? Let Gordon Smith, aka Smithy, Goggs, Gordie, Wee Jock -- must be a reason for all these aliases--tell you one about his climbs with Tobin in the Alps, the first ascent of a fine line on the west face of the Aiguille du Plan or the visionary second ascent of the Gousseault on the Grand Jorasses. Wee Jock, great to have you on ST. Slainte!
Here is an excerpt from my as yet unpublished article about Tobin’s 1977 season in the Alps. The best parts are the short quotes from Wee Jock, as you will see. This is about Smithy’s introduction to Tobin and their first ascent on the west face of the Aiguille du Plan in Chamonix.
I had to catch Freddie Laker flight back home just days after we finished the Dru, so I said a hasty goodbye to Tobin at the Montenvers train (he hiked down to save the fare).
Sorenson, however, was just warming up. He met Gordon Smith, “Smithy,” a Scottish ice climber who sported the standard Scottish attitude that Chamonix climbs were nothing compared to winter climbing on Ben Nevis—“the Ben”—in “full on” conditions. The two hit it off immediately.
"But the very fact that Tobin had arrived in the Alps without any equipment at all and was looking to go straight onto big Alpine North Walls never having climbed an Alpine North Wall before warned me straight away that here was a climber just like me."
Smith had spent two prior seasons in Chamonix with a tight-knit group of the leading British alpinists of that era, including Terry King, Nick Colton and Alex McIntyre. They had achieved repeats of the hardest French mixed routes and established a number of hard first ascents themselves, including a major new route to the right of the Walker Spur of the Grand Jorasses, the Colton/McIntyre. According to Colton, he and MacIntyre had developed a grand strategy. They had identified what they considered to be the three hardest Alpine routes in the world at that time: the Harlin on the Eiger, the Gousseault on the Jorasses, and the Voie de L’amite on Pointe Whymper of the Jorasses. All of these were unrepeated and, more importantly, had been established using siege tactics: fixed ropes and the like. The Brits wanted to repeat this trinity of routes, and in better style than the first ascents: faster, lighter, and without aid.
The year before, Smith, with Terry King, had done the second ascent of a hard route on the Aiguille du Plan, the Grand West Couloir. The Grand West is a prominent mixed rock and ice couloir clearly seen from the Aiguille de Midi telepherique, first climbed by Patrick Gabbarou in 1975.
In September of 1977, Sorenson and Smith climbed a new line in the narrow gully to the right of the Grand West Couloir. The very last pitch was the crux and Sorenson’s lead of it impressed his partner. Smith remembers,
"Horrific. A vertical rock corner, sporting an evil off width crack, encased in ice and verglass and topped by a large roof dripping icicles. Tobin led it, for it was his turn and he never was one to shy away from a challenge, with all the histrionic and noisy brilliance that I later came to expect from him."
Lindsay Griffin, former Mountain Magazine editor, who has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of alpine climbing, believes the route may still await a second ascent .
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
|
What supercouloir? Lots of them ...
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
|
Interesting reading the excerpt from Climbing Ice about doing the 'North Face Direct' on the Courtes. A couple of things seem to me very important in reviewing ascents and standards of 'long' ago - they seem so quaint, do they not ... 5 days on the 1st ascent of the 'Davaille, the Swiss route on the Courtes being a 'major' achievement, etc etc when today no doubt some juvenile would be quite happy snow-boarding down the swiss route and modern bods run up the 'Davaille and the other Droites routes as if they are easy days for a granny or a granddad to solo: the obvious one - evolution in techniques and gear in the intervening years; but just as important the breaking down of old myths. That happened (just as examples - many other 'revolutions' have occurred) in Scottish winter climbing with Big Ian Nicholson's solos of Point Five and Zero in a morning ushering in frontpointing and the 'big' routes for all and sundry, and in the alps in the seventies the young unknown riff-raff, primarily Brits at first then the continental youth catching on pretty quick (Sorry, but I class you few American imports to Alpine Climbing AT THAT TIME as honorary Brits - BTW according to Montagne Mag I seem to be an honorary American), exploding all over the old preserves of the mountaineering hoi poloi. Then the revolution in Himalayan climbing that followed ...
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
|
Hey, Gordon, good to see you on the Topo-sphere! Remember that fun route you and I did on Shelter Stone Crag in 1975. Out of about 50 routes climbed that winter on my one Scottish winter trip, that was the best one. I have some photos somewhere that I'll try to post up when I can find the time.
As for the OP: I was just getting into ice and big mountains when that catalog came out, and I studied it carefully and formed the basis of a technique that served well for a lifetime's adventure on ice.
-SomeJelloInYourTeaLaddie?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
|
Young Mr Lowe, you old beast! I've been trying to contact you!! Of course I remember the Citadel! I was just a bairn in those days!!! I'd love to see photos, any photos ... you did a climb with Tut Braithwaite (having forgotten to tie on your ropes) on Indicator Wall that went unreported and then was repeated as a new route years later ... Albatross or Arctic Tern Tut thinks it was!! Now a classic hard route..
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Jan 31, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
|
Someone wanted a story about alpine climbing .... and Atty Accomazzo has furnished an as yet unpublished excerpt - so here is another as yet unpublished excerpt ...about an American climbing in the alps in the seventies ....
Tobin fell twice off the first pitch of the day, very hard rock climbing in crampons
up a beetling granite prow that bulged out in the middle and then was capped by an enormous
overhang. It was climbing made harder still by being frosted over in new snow and streaked
with thin, fresh smears of ice. It was also unclimbed; for the Desmaison, which we had thought
we were following, veers back again to ramps on the left. But instead of veering off, like
sensible folk, we had pointed our idiot noses directly up our prow, and directly for the top.
Twice Tobin flew off that overhanging bulge in the middle of the prow like a great, black winged
banshee; a shrieking shadow swooping a very long way down out of the wind riven stour and jangling
to a halt with a bang. And never once did it penetrate upon us that we were going the wrong way.
Instead my long, thin ropes stretched longer still and thinner...
'Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow’
Never mind. They stopped him, those thin, long ropes of mine. Twice. And twice he went back up,
bloody, bold and resolute, until eventually, on his third try, he reached a lonely little foothold
high up on the prow, underneath the capping overhangs and past the bulge from which he’d fallen.
There the ropes ran out; and there he stopped and hammered home his piton.
It was the boldest of climbing by a true master. And there he passed the baton on to me. Not so
bold but devious as the devil, I didn't take the bull by the horns and risk attacking the great overhangs
above us direct as Tobin, with a snort and a bellow, clearly would have. At least he would have
tried to charge right over them and beggar the thought of falling off. But wee, sleekit, coo’erin,
tim’rous beastie that I am, I sneaked a couple of metres around from under the overhangs above and out
onto the left face of the prow in order to avoid the obvious, the difficulties straight ahead on the
right face. But my little detour around the overhangs took me onto a horribly dangerous wall, a kind of
arctic mush of rotten granite flakes half frozen into a paste of porridge, and collapsing as I climbed.
Above, I threw myself into the security of a deep patch of new snow covering a little blocky arete and sat
shaking in my icy hole while Tobin followed, trembling, in his turn.
Now at least we were above the overhangs, and hoping that the way to the top was clear. We
fought our way up against the screaming wind and slurries of spindrift, tiptoeing on eggshell ice
and throwing down showers of loose rocks and sweeping away the blankets of fresh snow, until Tobin fell
off the summit cornice. He came flying off that cornice, the very last moves of the climb, and those
long, thin ropes of mine stretched yet longer still and thinner. But never mind. Those long, thin ropes,
they stopped him. Again. And when he whined
‘The cornice is very soft snow. I can’t get my ice axe or my hammer
to stick’,
in my very, very impatient way I bullied him with
‘just cut the crap and flog the bloody thing down with your axe for God's sake
and let’s be done with this climb’.
I was impatient, you see, because the final pitch was even longer than the length of my very long ropes
and already I'd been forced to untie from my belay and follow him up the last runnels of snow and ice
and rock towards the cornice and the summit. Therefore was I very frightened when he himself came
swooping back down towards me out of the storm clouds, that shrieking black winged banshee again in
flight, having tried to climb the soft, overhanging snow of that cornice; and me without a belay but
still tied to him and looking at following him all the way to the glacier at the bottom of the
mountain. More than four thousand airy feet down through the swirling clouds. Fortunately he'd looped
a rope sling over a rock spike somewhere along the way and clipped the climbing ropes through it. Thus
by the grace of God, and with a little foresight on the part of Tobin, we didn't go tumbling down in a
final stotting clinch after all. And by the grace of God he did as he was told, and didn't try again
to climb the cornice but flogged it down with his axe and belly-rolled onto the summit of our dreams,
our second summit, our last summit. I followed him over what was left of the cornice, like a dog on
a leash.
Without ceremony, without words even and, for me at least, with a great feeling of emptiness
for my obsession was no more and we had nowhere left to go but down, we gathered up one of my ropes
into a giant knitting and stuffed it together with great quantities of the streaming spindrift into
my rucksack. We descended through the gale to the Italian Hut tied together with the other rope.
And thus the two climbs that fate had allotted us together were done.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
|
Welcome Jeff!
Can I offer you some frozen Squid memories?!?
From Vertigo Games by Glenn Randall, 1983.
To you crampon historians, what were people wearing prior to Salewa adjustables and Chouinard rigids in the sixties? Grivel hand forged ultralights? Was Salewa the first stamped and formed crampon design available in Europe?
Thanks for the fabulous excerpts Gordon and Ricky. Love to read the full pieces down the road!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
I suppose my stubais were hand forged - looked like they were galvanised???
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
I definitely had hand-forged Stubais from the late 50s. Quite beautiful. Hinged. Not galvanized, but dark unfinished iron. Hardened, but if they were steel it was a pretty low alloy.
I liked the way that at the front they forged in four different directions: the front point, front vert point, frame piece headed rearward, and the vert piece to the separate lacing ring that flopped merrily back and forth. All squarish in cross section. I can't remember if there was also a horizontal frame piece crossing between the front points?
The front points were distinctly modern, curving downward and flared to a sharp chisel end.
Cotton straps that froze up.
Those Grivel Ultralights were so obviously the state of the art, but I never had any. Delicately forged and so light.
The Salewas were the first stamped crampons.
PSOM had a bunch of loaner 10-points that were the complete opposite. Just blundering crude heavy monsters. Reminiscent of the worst Euro forged pins occasionally around then. The McDonalds of crampons.
There's a slim chance I have an old snapshot...
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
You're making me think of my first ice axe too.
Stubai Aschenbrenner. Straight-out pick, pretty good for bashing steps. Self-arrested well, for the day. Didn't really consider clawing with it. Well, on snow sure, but definitely not on ice.
It was probably 80 cm long. I happily carried it all over the Sierra. But by the mid-60s I cut down the shaft to about 65 cm in imitation of the shorter axes that were coming out of Europe. Re-fitted the ferrule with a ring of red epoxy around the top.
After I got my first Chouinard Piolet in the fall of '69 I gave that axe to a young autistic client.
Occasionally I wish I still had that axe, as well as the 207 cm Hexcel prototype skis I took on the John Muir Trail the next spring.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
|
If you have a shot of those Stubai's, I would love to check them out.
Salewa put their adjustable out in 1962, pretty early on.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
Gordon aka "Wee Jock" Christ man - please get that book published and flog the name on this site. The story with Tobin Sorenson was the most gripping alpine climbing epic I've read in ages.
photo from Pete Benson
I think this is the site of the epic--North Face Grande Jorasses??
thank you! Fritz
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
|
Perfect spot for one!
The Stubai Aschenbrenner was a step cutting only design and never looked better than in this gentleman's weathered hands.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Well, Gordon, you were the best of your generation of Scottish clamberers, carrying on in a long, distinguished line of under-equipped, dishevelled and self-reliant mountain men. And now, by your excerpt, I see that you're also ready to step into the literary shoes of the likes of Murray and Marshall and Robin Smith, etc. I've got two days left on a deadline that will not allow me to participate much, here, but then I'll post up some stuff from my pilgrimage back in '75 to the birthplace of winter mountaineering and mixed climbing. I even have a pic of Tut on that route you spoke of. Tut and I did a few climbs in that rope-free style, and the most delicate aspect was trying to not fall off as we were each trying to top the other with our jokes as we climbed. I remember one point at the crux of Hadrian's Wall where Tut had outdone me, and I spent five minutes fighting paroxysms of laughter while clinging precariously to axes and crampons barely adhered to thin ice. Wonderful times!
Cheers to you, Wee Jock-
-StyrofoamJello
EDIT: And thanks, Steve, for the memories via the Squid pics. We didn't have much in the way of Scots styrofoam on this side of the puddle, so we had to make do with what we found on our own winter hillsides.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Great shot of Norman. The stare...
Sporting a skinny rope. Nylon, for sure, but definitely a guiding-only line. No leading on that, nope.
But they cut off his boots. The wonderful nailed mothas with about 26 eyelets lacing to mid-thigh.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Great stuff, thank you gentlemen.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
Great Dane, the topo you just posted has an error ... Route A and Route B join about an inch (on the photo!) higher - at the top of the next steepening. The Desmaison original takes a corner (just discernable as a line on the photo) up the left flank of this steep section to reach the 'first ramp' while route B goes up a very obvious (and rather Scottish) ice gully hard up against the right hand bounding wall (ie the line as shown in the topo).
Jello - high praise from such as you, were it only true ... well actually 3 of the words are true - clamberer, dishevelled and under-equipped.
As to crampons I climbed for a while with a pair of Salewa Adjustables with tungsten tips ... to keep them sharp I suppose. Trouble was the tips fell off.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
The "Scottish" part may also be true. :-) Anyway, fascinating stories - thanks!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
Actually, I was born in Calcutta, India
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2009 - 11:27am PT
|
To continue the show and tell.....
In 1908 Oscar Eckenstein became the father of the modern reliable crampon with this hinged ten point design.
The front points were destined to show up around 1929 and revolutionize icecraft.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
There have been so many good climbers posting and some amazing climbs on this thread. It is a fun read.
Question for Gordon, didn't you and Tobin do that route with two nights out in 1977?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
Great Dane
Two nights out, but we also lost nearly a morning wandering up a red herring and rapping back down again...The route we did wasn't the Desmaison as it turned out but somewhat more direct. A high def photo shown me by Luca Signorelli showed me what I always suspected (remember Tobin and I had no route description, only Desmaison's name for the route as the 'NE Face Direct' of the Point Walker - so we kept our noses pointed to the summit at all times...actually, I broke my nose years ago so it is a bit bent therefore we followed Tobin's nose). I saw our route really clearly in Jon Griffiths photo that you provided the link for!!
Just to keep the post in keeping with the OP Tobin used a 60cm Chouinard Frost and Chouinard ice hammer and I had Terrors. I reckon that my Terror axe, with its big adze, would have coped better with the soft snow of the cornice!! I really loved that Terror axe because of the adze even though it was a bit light for climbing hard water ice. Terrors were really great for the very thin ice in the mixed climbing ... much better than the Chouinard stuff that Tobin had IMO. We climbed in the old fashioned way ... if there was no ice to stick the pick into we rock climbed with our hands - ie no torqueing and hooking.
I think we both had Salewa Adjustables and we did a lot of mixed verglassed rock and thin ice climbing in them. We found them great for the mixed climbing - essentially rock climbing up to about 5.10.
We had no ice screws, though there was a fair bit of very hard 'winter' ice in the gullies on the route that would have 'taken' them well.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
|
John Cleare wrote a chapter about Scottish winter climbing in Mountains, 1975. The modern portion.
Enter you lads!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
Mr Grossman ... re Cleare's article - clipping in and resting on a Terror would be aid, would it not? Also, hooking (as per Hamish's spiel about the terror hooking small rock flakes) - is that not aid as much as using a sky-hook? Seems to me that the 'new' tools of the seventies brought in some ethical questions, particularly the angled pick of the Terror. Being a particularly impecunious example of Homo Scotus Winterclimbicus I was always careful to try not to use the terror on rock as it wore it out very quickly...the pick metal was kind of soft and once it had worn down to the first tooth it was fairly useless. As far as I knew most folk did a lot of clearing of snow from rock holds and climbing bare handed (hence the wee strings on the Dachsteins - which brought a problem as the mitt would hang upside down and fill with spindrift!).
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
The whole modern mixed thing went over my head for years.
My first exposure to a Terro was a set the hostel host borrowed from the Burgess twins while they were climbing around Cirrus gully in the winter of '74. (A year later it bacame Polar Circus) We had just climbed Louise and rapped off to find these guys playing with a bunch of different tools. They were nice enough to let us play too :)
We Inland NW Yanks were generally using curved gear. Although Roskelly caught on to Terros quicker than the rest of us and took advantage of the numerious "free" options available. Terros opened my eyes that day on Louise as to what might yet be possible.
As Gordon mentioned Terros and Chouinard gear for that matter didn't last long if you hit rocks. If if wasn't "FAT" ice we generally avoided it. With winter climbs like Slipstream or Takakkaw so handy why bother wit "winter mixed"? On alpine mixed like Deltaform, Temple or Edith Cavel you might end up climbing in crampons a lot depending on conditions with a tool in your holster or hanging on your wrist. No matter what you did, if you had a good alpine season (3 or 4 faces) in Canada, you'd generally wear out a set of tools. Dachsteins would climb pretty well on moderate stuff. Bare handed {in summer}seemed the norm when it got hard. Hooking a rock intentionally with an ice tool just never occured to us/me. The tools were expensive and Terros (in the NW anyway) hard to obtain let alone replace. Winter? A bit too cold to climb without a pair (or two) of mitts in those days.
Modern mixed? At least for some of us climbing in Canada early on, if it wasn't fat winter ice why bother? Heaven forbid you ever actually went looking for that kind of "shit". We'd typically got a stomach full in the summer or on the occasional winter alpine climb. I used a set of Terros and most importantly the adze to climb the last pitch of sun baked mush of Polar Cirus and Teardrop on an early ascents. I am not sure what other tools would have made them possible at the time. The long Chouinard tubes you could pull out with your hands in those conditions. The Simond Chacal and Barracuda that came later where the first tools I thought bettered than Terros. Since the sun baked vertical slop never seemed to get any easier over the years I still favored the big, dropped adzes. Something none of the newer tools seemed to think worth copying.
Salewa and Chouinard rigids came first. But the SMC rigids were the crampon of choice for most of us between '75 and the early '80s on water ice and alpine climbing. Footfangs swayed many from the SMC for hard ice. The Chouinard hinged stared to make in roads for alpine mixed.
Years later I finally bought a set of tools just for "modern"
mixed. Camming a crack or hooking a rock edge made perfect sense after rereading Jello's book for the 87th time:) And then first doing it on a top rope. Shafts come in many forms these days but funny to me that the best of them actually copy the same hooking angles of the original Terros. Just no need now to bang a knuckle.
From the posts in this thread an observation one might make is that it was Hamish McInnes and his Terro that made the biggest impression on modern ice and mixed climbing.
Louise in '74
Remember how the sharp edges on the hammer head would tear up your mitts?
Look familiar?
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long and I've just sort of ignored it.........Guess I've been too busy guiding without a laptop close by.........
For me the big eye-opener with what was possible on BIG ice climbs was when Bugs did Nemesis. The long pitches of difficult ice and exposure was greater than I had seen. The fact that he used his Terrors for aid occasionally didn't detract (for me) the fact that he went up and and did the thing. Jeff Lowe's insistence on a "free-climbing" ethic in ice climbing also pushed climbers to do their best and challenge themselves in the ice area.
When I got my first pair of Charlet Moser Gabbaru Grade Six axes the challenge of climbing mangled waterfall ice became more manageable and safer. The only problem was that the picks were hand-forged and the metal quality was inconsistent so you never knew exactly what you were going to get. Tobin and I started the Grand Central Coulouir on Kitchener with five axes and finished with only two. The picks on the other three broken and useless.
Then the Chacal came out and that made all the difference.....
Steve, do you have any pictures of the Chouinard "Ice Screw rachet" that Yvon sold in his catalog?
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Some of the Canadian terrain from the discussion.
Nemisis, 160m, Stanley headwall
N Face of Kitchener, late winter. Jack's and Tobin's direct finish still scare the tourists away.
N face of Alberta, late summer
Slipstream on Snowdome in early Jan.
Deltaform early summer
Lower and Upper Weeping Wall in fat conditions
Upper Pillars of Polar Circus in fat conditons
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Most excellent portraits!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Nice to have some bona fide alpinists chime in on this thread.
Seems like a question for Wee Jock here…about tools.
I am currently reading Bonnington’s Annapurna South Face…
And am reminded of this picture of Nicki & Ian Clough & on the North Face of the Matterhorn:
(From Paulcke & Dumler’s hazards in mountaineering.)
I’m guessing this is mid-60s, sometime before Clough’s exit on Annapurna:
These tools look very short: maybe 45 cm & I can only guess predating curved picks as well,
Or maybe right on the cusp of that innovation.
Could these be handmade MacInnes axes?
They look like quality items.
Dane, Steve, DR, Jello, Jack et al?
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
That's the first thing I've seen on this thread that looks like Don Jensen's MacInnes ice hammer. Pick is the right angle, and notice how thick it appears.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
And this little excerpt from Annapurna South Face (climb summited May 27, 1970),
Referring to an "all metal" MacInnes axe w/ steep pick and particular notes on Chouinard tools.
(Curved adze reference in the text is I think intended to mean pick?)
Then, "The Whillans Whammer"?!?
Described earlier in the appendix:
"an all-purpose modern tool combining a descendeur, ice-pick and hammerhead."
WTF?
An ice tool with integral descending/rappel device?
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Can't be too careful. You just never know when you'll suddenly need to bail...
WHAM! -- and down I go
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
|
Now there's a tough photo to find! No sign in your book, Roy! I recall a spaceage little goodie!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
heh... no sign of it in the book's pictures.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2009 - 11:03am PT
|
And only thirty or forty Bonnington books to peruse! LOL
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
Yeah, and most of em not worth the trouble...Sir.
I'll look for my literature over on the William S. Burroughs thread, thanks.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
How about more of this?
Eric and Luci photo.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 12:37am PT
|
You always did like your Lunch Naked!!!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
On the Dru Coulior '73.
Ian Clough or Hamish McInnes? Same lineage? McInnes axe from the late '60s. One of the very first full metal axes with a red rubber/plastic coating. Gordon, know anything more?
DR is this similar to the axe you remember Don Jensen was using?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
That is a really cool find Dane!
'Pushes our vintage axe conversation right on down the road...
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
It is the hole in the axe's head and the funky "nail" end spike that makes me think they are the same or at least a similar production McInnes axe. I don't think Nicky Clough is climbing with a matched pair of tools in the picture.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Yes, also the oval stamp on the pick of the ax in each picture.
I'm perhaps spotting some differences with her north wall hammer as well.
Neat stuff.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
That's Don's tool!
Thick pick. Might have been a bit straighter than that.
Two worthless little half-round divots on the underside. Check.
Shaft is right. The rust-red stuff is rubbery.
His was the hammer, remember, like the one in Nikki's other hand.
Where on earth did you turn that up, Dane?
I had to have one too. Found an axe version, and my metal-worker friend Thomas cut off the adze and welded me on a hammer face. After I had Chouinard gear, John Fischer took that hammer to South America and left it with a local. No photos remain.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Tut Braithwaite on that simul-solo Dane mentioned way up thread:
Yvon Chouinard and John Cunningham near the top of Ben Nevis:
Shelter Stone Crag with the Line of Citadel dead center:
Gordon Smith heading up Citadel in 1975:
Ben Nevis in clearing storm:
Our "cheating machine" in '75. We were filming Yvon and Johnny for a never-released Nat'l Geo extravaganza, and were ferried each day to the top of the mountain!
Clocwise from top left, on the summit of Ben Nevis: Yvon Chouinard, Johnny Cunnigham, Hamish McKinnis, Tut Braithwaite:
Zero Gully dead ahead, Hadrian's Wall and Point Five up and right:
Closest thing to Scottish ice in Colorado? Duncan Ferguson and Mark Wilford on Englishman's Route, Hallets Peak, mid-80's.
Duncan totally stylin', as always:
Mark & Dunc:
Duncan, MasterOfTheThinIceUniverse, Ferguson:
Jello, shaking his way up the Smear of Fear, in the spirit of the Scots:
Jello again, tickling the North American Crystal, on the Glass Pony Shop, Jaque Cartier River, Quebec:
Ephemera, Jaque Cartier River:
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 04:18am PT
|
Tut and Jeff on Ice Again! YC's caption reads "piolet traction is being used where it belongs here!"
Nice shots Jello!
Wee Jock- I am no lover of flexible ethics even if it's Hamish doing the tweaking! The aid matter was put to bed with Polar Circus and the Bugs McKeith chapter over here. The line is always clear if you are straight with yourself.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Thanks, Steve, it was fun digging them out. Now it's time for both of us to get some sleep!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
Hi Steve, old bean .... I'm not really talking about flexible personal ethics, I am wondering about the ethical principles that are the accepted ethics in winter climbing today behind, for example, 'torquing' as free climbing Vs 'French Free' pulling up on a jammed nut as aid climbing. Should using ice axes on/in rock, as opposed to ice (and frozen turf) be considered aid? (I would say yes) Do crampons qualify as 'nailed boots' (I would say yes and traditionally using them is not aid, even on rock) ... but ice-axes qualify as sky-hooks and crack'n'ups. Or is it the same ethical leap in principle as the leap between cutting and pointing and therefore OK in principle?
Just an old fart wondering about the new ways and wishing that there was an icy goulotte someplace in the steamy jungle back of the boat anchorage......
By the way, Dane I am far to young to know anything about that red handled beasty thing in your photo
|
|
richross
Trad climber
gunks,ny
|
|
Mark Robinson,Stoney Clove,Catskill Mountains,NY mid 70's.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
|
The whole mixed mania phenom I find to be more akin to aid climbing, these days, than to its Scottish ridge and gully roots. Personally, I like sticking ice tools in ice and don't care to bugger up my picks tweaking and twisting. The angry inch is lodged firmly enough in my consciuosness when my whole show is hanging there on one tip trying to find a home for the other!
Perhaps some Mixed Masters present can bring the game up to date?!?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Seems Jello really broke the mold...
Maybe a few words on the mixed matter Jeff?
from Climbing 6/2002
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
I'm with Steve on mixed. I find myself glazing over when it comes up.
Maybe it's a little like my view of modern rock climbing: it's fascinating and I'm humbled by the obvious strength and technique involved, but it has broken contact with what I can physically relate to.
Or maybe it's more in that vein of ice-tools-belong-in-ice. Skiing might be a good analogy there. Hucking cliffs has a certain daredevil fascination, sure. (Not MY knees, though, thanks.) But I was raised with a racing orientation. Skiing happens with your skis on the snow. Techniques like pre-jumping a roll work to keep em there = faster. All the aerialist stuff is mildly annoying, like shoo those gymnasts back to their trampolines.
Just an old fart sayin'.
I eagerly await Jello's take on it.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Awesome photos Jello!
Modern mixed and aid? First time I actually paid any attention to hooking with tools was when Jared Ogden took ice tools on a rock climb in the Black Canyon I think and then "freed" some previously difficult aid in rock shoes with tools. I thought what the hell?
The next chapter for me was Steve House and Vince Anderson on Alberta last winter via a new route. Mark's or Steve's writing (can't remember which) about the climb made the most sense to me. Something like "using a tool while hooking and torquing is faster than traditional aid." My focus was on faster than "traditional aid".
Looks a lot like some of Jello's pictures. Anderson on Alberta.
Steve House photo
But once you're kitted up what does it matter what your picks are in when you are pulling? My little experience for this kind of climbing showed me that the conditons can change so quickly that the route may not even be the same the next day let alone the same difficulty. Same discussion I had heard before about "conditions" on hard mixed climbs like "Beyond Good and Evil". One climber gets a life changing experience. The next week/month/season a climber gets a autobahn offering nothing impressive on the same climb.
But isn't that alpinism? Each climb distinct to the climber and never to be repeated?
With a climb like Gordon and Tobin's on the Grand Jorasse back in the '70s, when they said "freed" we all understood if was free like in Yosemite "free". Hands, feet and heart "free". These days "freed" in an alpine environment means you look for the M grade. Letters have changed but M is just another version for "fast aid".
Andromedia Strain in Canada is a good example, old grade was V WI4 5.9 A2, the "modern" grade is V WI4 M7 and more typically done in a day.
Being one of the "old guys" who came back for seconds the first thing I needed for modern mixed was a whole new attitude which Twight slowly screwed into my psyche over a few years time. And a long lay off from hard climbing. With the enlightenment came a new set of tools made to take the abuse and not get totally trashed 1st pitch. Forget what you ever knew about swinging...now scrape and hook seems to work just fine. Saves what little ice you'll likely find and your tool. Picks get tuned differently as well and the tools can be much lighter.
Just the FNG's observations from only a couple of seasons of "modern mixed" for mortals. Others here have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the game. But I suspect many of the original crowd here that loves the swing of a bamboo piolet, would really enjoy this kind of climbing at a more moderate level given half a chance.
It certainly surprised me! Scratching and hooking your way up several long sustained pitches of M4 or M5 (easy by today's standards 5.8/5.9) is as close to alpine climbing bliss as I've ever been. On the flip side, my observation at the time, of climbing the same bit in a more conventional '70s fashion would have made the climb harder, slower and less secure. Gotta say the "fun" factor might well have gone way up too though with old techniques. We would certainly been able to "enjoy" it longer :) Time and techniques move on.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
From "Mountain Climbing", Out of Door Library, 1897
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
So, Dane, unless I missed it has nobody mentioned the axe Bill Sumner (the founder of Seattle's Swallow's Nest) made which had mercury in the head to give it more impact? I'd like to see him try that these days. You'd need to file an environmental impact statement to buy the thing. I gotta say it did 'set' nicely. I think he only made a couple of prototypes.
As an aside, Dane, is Bill still living in Alma Ata, Kazakhstan? I know it is now Almaty but I still call St Petersburg Leningrad.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Ever since ice axes were taken to the Alpine peaks, climbers have been inserting picks or shafts, hooking and torquing on rock. In my opinion it shows a decided lack of imagination not to want to see what one can do with them. I really got bored with thick ice: wanted to bring winter sport closer in line with gymnastic rock climbing. In France one winter in the early 90's, Thierry Renault and I did a really good, 10-pitch climb called Blind Faith, that has a 5-meter icy rock roof on the 4th pitch, that we used a few points of aid on. Following the roof, I checked out the potential tool placements, and could see how it could be "freed". Back in Colorado, I looked around and found Octopussy, to prove out my ideas. Anyone who does much of this kind of thing will tell you it "feels like free climbing", requiring all the body control, etc of free rock climbing. As far as pick-bashing goes, guys like Duncan, Malcolm and myself used to go whole seasons on one set of picks, taking pride in careful, precise placements on the rock.
I'm not very fond of full pitches of bolted dry rock on some modern M-climbs, though. That sort of thing seems unnaesthetic and uninspiring. I always was on the lookout for climbs like Deep Throat:
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
A select few have the vision. The rest of us follow along kicking and screaming in "blind faith" :) Thanks for the push Jello!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
Well, thanks, Dane. Why didn't you and I ever hook up for some adventure BITD? Seems like we were interested in the same stuff?
Another thing about modern mixed is that it (as has sport rock climbing) truly has openned the greatest climbs in the world to fast, fit, bold and experienced new-generation alpinists, like Steve House, Vince Anderson, Simon Anthematten, and the best of them all, Ueli Steck. Without modern mixed experience, these guys would not be doing the climbs they are. It's a whole new world of alpinism.
-Jello
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
From CLIMBING 51, nov/dec '78:
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Jello asks: "Why didn't you and I ever hook up for some adventure BITD? Seems like we were interested in the same stuff?"
While I would have been honored BITD, that is pretty funny
One of the reasons I suspect was a conversation I had with Roskelly about Tawoche. (for those that don't know it's a huge VII, 5.11, M6)
John mentioned that you were severly kicking his ass climbing wise for the first part of the climb. He told me that he really had to dig deep playing catch up to just come close to climbing at your level. When John admits something like that I was more than impressed. That and the rocks zipping through your bat tent. We were interested in the same stuff Jeff but you actually could climb it!
That and the fact that you see this as a climb.
BITD I could manage to get up most 5.11s or a bit more and thick ice was "easy" but that thing still SCARES me!
But seriously, where you took mixed made it easy for the rest of us to follow along on more moderate terrain. As you have already pointed out it is in the alpine environment where the tools and techniques have really benefited everyone involved.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
|
The farthest reach from a sure thing that a Jello could conjure up one fine frozen day. This sort of adventure has lots of smears and not just a pharaoh's beard at the lip. Jello's eye and efforts are always intriguing, purposeful and bold as love!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
From climbing number 58, January/February 1980
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
Roy,
funny you should post that article from Climbing..........I was thinking of doing the very same thing. That was a cold climb.
The continuing story after the climb was this...........
After the climbing we descended uneventfuly down to the tent and after taking off my boots I discovered I had frostbite with black toes and we still we had to ski out. Tobin and I slept in the tent and the next day we skied out to the road and Tobin drove me in my Datsund B210 the 12 hours to Bellingham, WA where I checked into the hospital and waited until my toes got better and I could return to LA. Meanwhile, on our way up to Canada before the climbing, Tobin and I had promised the outdoor club in Bellingham that on our return we would give a dual slideshow for them. Tobin on his second ascent of the Harlin Route on the Eiger with Alex Macintyre and me on my ascent of the North Face of Huntington.
But now The deal was I was in the hospital "Burns Ward" and I wasn't supposed to leave. My toes might get infected. But we had a show to give. Promises to keep..........So Tobin gets a six pack of beer and convinces the person in charge of the ward that it's OK if I leave for a couple of hours because Tobin will watch over me and everything will be OK. No one will know and my toes will be safe with Him. So Tobin wheels me down the hall in the wheel chair, out of the hospital, down three floors (I can't walk and am on pain killers), and into the B210 and we go to the auditorium .
Once there Tobin wheels me in, down and up onto the front stage. He anchors the wheel chair so I don't roll off and with my face to the audience and my back to the pictures and my mind numb with pills I proceed to give the worst slideshow of my life. Afterwards, Tobin gives his show on the Eiger and with only four pictures entertains the crowd of eager listeners...........after the show he takes me back to my bed in the hospital and no one is the wiser. We left about one week later.
That was one heck of a trip with Tobin. And I've returned many times over for more winter climbing.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
We are so lucky to get these stories down in print. Some times I wonder if guys like Jack and Jello (and the others here) realise just how many climbers they have influenced over the years.
Super Taco is a very cool place and the community richer for all their contributions!
Tobin wrote a bit about Charlie Porter and the Burgess twin's winter attempt on Kitchner. On the Charlie Porter thread up currently one of the guys that whitnessed that attempt wrote a few words about his experience. Amazing, simply amazing experience here.
More from Kitchener via © Raphael Slawinski's web site:
http://members.shaw.ca/raphael2/index1.html
The looking down the "easier" Blanchard/Doyle ice strip.
© Raphael Slawinski
|
|
geiger
Trad climber
Doylestown pa
|
|
What a thread on one of the best catalogs printed. Just finished a great read, "Let My People Go - Surfing". YC story of the development of Patagonia (think clothing, not region). It really brought back the history of a lot of gear and climbing stories as well as his company philosophy.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
|
A timely American Alpine Two'fer from Climbing May-June 1978.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Thanks for telling that story Jack,
I remember the particular weekend in Joshua Tree when news of your climb on Kitchner with Tobin came to our little group of itinerant Southern California climbers. Dramatic stuff both then AND now; with emotional impact.
'Nice comic relief with the slideshow bit…
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Ha!
Good one Steve.
I leap frog Jack's intention with my post any you just did the same with me!!!
I have that same Eiger/Dru article on the griddle...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
|
Sorry Roy! My poster's bunyan got to twitchin'.
Hilarious story about the wheel chair slide show! Tobin must have been pretty smooth to get you out of the burn ward.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Since we have the color picture…
We may as well go for the full article!
From climbing number 51, November/December 1978
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
We know light is right Jack,
But when is it just plain skimpy?
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
Hey guys how about scanning in Jack's 1979 AAJ article on Huntington? And to complete that season is there anything written on the S face of Denali?
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
|
Rick A:
>They had identified what they considered to be the three hardest >Alpine routes in the world at that time: the Harlin on the Eiger, >the Gousseault on the Jorasses, and the Voie de L’amite on Pointe >Whymper of the Jorasses. All of these were unrepeated and, more >importantly, had been established using siege tactics: fixed >ropes and the like.
Hi Rick,
just as a matter of historical truth: the Gousseault route on the Jorasses was NOT first climbed using siege tactics. In the first serious attempt, on the 1971 ascent and the 1973 climb, Desmaison fixed only few initial pitches, but the rest was climbed in one push. And by the way, even the number of pitons used in 1971 and 1973 may have been exaggerated under the influence of the gigantic controversy that followed Desmaison rescue.
Both 1971 and 1973 climbs were some of the last occasion "traditional" ice climbing techniques (i.e. single axe) were used in the Alps (before the advent of "piolet traction"). Because of that, Desmaison and his mates had to maximize rock climbing, and this largely justifies the large use of aid. Particularly in 1973 (when Desmaison had not to resort to desperate survival tactics as it had been the case in 1971), aid was really used when needed (btw, Giorgio Bertone - one of the member of the 1973 team - was one of the finest free climbers of his day)
This of course doesn't detract one bit from Gordon and Tobin extraordinary feat in 1977 - they opened an almost entirely new line (see here)
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2945
they did it in an immaculate style, and the result was possibly one of the hardest mixed routes in the history of alpine climbing.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
|
It's interesting to compare those routes that were done on both sides of the Atlantic back in the early to mid-70's. I haven't done the Desmaison or the Dru Couloir, but I would compare the MacIntyre-Colton with the Ramp Route on Kitchener, the Super Couloir with direct start (Tacul), with the Grand Central Couloir (Kitchener). Ice and mixed climbs longer and more difficult than these are generally found only in Alaska, some in the Andes, and most notably, the Himalaya.
-Jello
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
|
What astounds me is that we have a voice for just about every big, classic ice route in Europe on this thread!
Thanks for sharing!
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
|
It's just that I love the feeling of fresh, cool mountain air rushing up my dress!!!
Tobin was ALWAYS a smooth talker. He stuck around the hospital for a while as I recovered and the nurses just LOVED having him around. He was a very loveable guy.
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
|
Roy,
At least I had the good sense to keep my "knickers" on in the photo!!
That issue is classic. Jim's mug shot on the front and me on the back cover. UGH!
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
|
The full story on the Dru Couloir direct has yet to be told.
As I remember it Randy Trover and Mugs joined up as one team and Steve Shea and I roped up as another. Both teams has their sights on the Dru Couloir. No one was even thinking about anything else. So all four of us bivouaced at the top of the tram, in the tram station that night so we could get an early start the next day.
AS it turned out Steve and I got ahead of Randy and Mugs but we all found ourselves at the start of the climbing difficulties at the same time.......For some reason it was decided we should all rope up into a party of four, with Steve and I at the head. Steve and I swung leads while Mugs and Randy followed behind. We have two ropes. One for leading and the other for Mugs and Randy to follow on. We bivouaced that night on a 'cozy" ledge that just fit all four of us. The bummer was that late afternoon snow showers would roll in and dumped snow would collect at the head of the couloir and we keep getting hit with these mini avalanches.....
The morning of the second day Steve and I look up at this thinly iced corned system and just assume this is the route. In fact the standard route split off left and assumed more complicated climbing. Steve figures "what thehell. It looks climbable" and just heads on up. I figure that he's a better climber than I so I owe it to him to just belay him as he tackles this vertical, poorly protected pitch. I follow and lead an easier and shorter pitch, which is then followed by another hard scarey pitch led by Steve..........Now you have to realize that Steve Shea was probably at the top of his mixed climbing game and was one of the best mixed climbers in the US of A back in the mid-seventies.............He was grumpy and he swore alot but he ALWAYS got the job done and he never quit. NEVER! So now the snow showers are beginning again and as Mugs and Randy jumar the pitches behind us I sit and watch as the snow piles up around me, enclosing me in its cool cocoon ........
It's late afternoon on the second day. Everything is covered in snow. Steve has been on this hard lead now for a couple of hours and then finally I head a yell from above. "Jack. I'm in the main couloir. Come on up". So, Steve has completed the lead into the Dru Couloir and is only waiting for me to follow and then for us to go up...........Then a yell from below, "Mugs and I have to go down. We have a train to catch to Amsterdam. We have to leave". Mugs and Randy needed both ropes for their rappel and we needed both ropes to go up and over and out..................
After a very long time and much shouting through wind and snow, it was decided to go down and out.....to bail.
Disappointed but also somewhat relieved. I always felt bad about coming down from that effort. I think if we had just continued and completed the climb it would have been a great statement about Steve's skill and ability since he did most of the hard leads. We would have spent another night out but we would have survived OK and gotten down the next day anyway...........but at the time it seemed like the right thing to do.
One week later Tobin and Ricky went back up and did the complete route to the summit of the Dru. Finished what we began. I forget where Steve I were. I think I was still camped in Snell's Field but went up to solo the North Face of Le Courtes. Steve might have met up with someone else and gotten on another route.........and I can only guess at what Randy and Mugs were up to in Amsterdam.
All-in-all It was a damn fine climb with good company.......and it was a warm, fuzzy feeling to have Tobin and Rick show the locals that YES!, Yankees CAN climb ice.....Keeping IT in the family so to speak. Showing the French how to climb in their own backyard. That was what felt so good!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
|
Hi Bldrjck ... I think that you yanquee had already shown that you could climb alpine ice in 1975. John Bouchard and his pal Steve (of the unpronouncable last name) - or was it Rick Wilcox?? did the third ascent of the original route on the Dru Couloir in a day - just beating Terry King and myself to the bronze medal for the route (we did it the next day)! I remember steaming up the Droites NF full steam ahead with Kingy a few days before that, racing those Yanquee 'A' team B*gg#r$ to the top!! All good fun - we left Dirty Alex and Black Nick (our other 'B' team) footering around in the rimaye like a couple of grannies!!
I did the second ascent of Bridalveil Falls in Telluride in 1976 with Steve Shea in very lean conditions ... we drove to the foot of the route(!!) - don't remember him being grumpy at all. We had a good laugh, mind, and didn't hang about on the route at all. Yup, you chaps did know how to climb ice!
BTW, what is Steve up to? I saw him on Ripley 'Believe It or Not' many years ago falling down a couloir that he was skiing on Grand Teton and then getting up and walking away.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
|
Some Bridalveil visuals from Glenn Randall's Vertigo Games.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
|
Wee Jock, Jello, Luca, & Jack!
Lovin' these first-hand stories.
I've seen that footage of Steve Shea falling down that couloir.
He just keeps going, and going, and going.
Fairly incredible that he walks away.
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
|
I think Steve is still falling down that couloir.....
I heard that Steve lives in Jackson, WY and runs rivers now. I believe he got out of climbing.
Yeah, John Bouchard got the attention of the French. Climb their hardest routes, solo one or two more and then run off with the most desirable woman in the valley...
Style is EVERYTHING!
Jack
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
|
Jeff,
How about an account of your ascent of Hungo Face on Kwande. Now THAT was a route well ahead of its time. Hard, run out ice climbing in a pretty remote valley.
Jeff, tell us a story.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
|
Great stories! Thanks.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 13, 2009 - 02:01am PT
|
Aaaah Bldrjac - you damn Yanquees - overpaid, oversexed and overhere....where have I heard that before?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 10:25am PT
|
Hey, Luca
The last line of your post was, I fear, a wee bitty overstated....!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
|
Some more scenery from Mountain 29 Sept 73.
Such a splendid shot of the Ben by Hamish MacInnes to start.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
|
Luca Signorelli;
Thanks for your comments. I know you are an avid historian of alpine climbing and I respect your views. I have seen references that 300 pitons were used by Desmaison and company on the first ascent of the Gousseault. I assume that these pins were fixed in place as was the custom in Europe then, but even if they were not fixed, the French had to have carried a huge big-wall rack of pitons on that climb. Gordon will confirm that he found on his first attempt, and on the successful attempt, a lot of equipment remaining on the route, including ropes, cached packs full of gas canisters and other detritus.
With respect to the Harlin route on the Eiger, it is well documented that fixed ropes were strung almost from top to bottom on the first ascent. I think that we can agree at least that this route was “sieged” on its first ascent.
Jack,
Thanks for the story of your climb up the Dru Couloir with Steve Shea, Randy Trover and Mugs Stumpf. But I have to disagree with your statement that Shea reached the easier angled ice of the original Dru Couloir (Couloir Nordest des Drus) route before retreating. From what Tobin and I observed a couple of days after your climb, Steve stopped well before reaching the main couloir and just below what turned out to be the crux of the Direct route. The evidence for this is mentioned in my article that I wrote right after our climb, which is up thread. The last piece of equipment we saw was a tied off ice screw, placed in a narrow strip of shallow ice in the vertical upper dihedral of the Direct. It was a six-inch screw and was placed about halfway in, tied off using a green piece of webbing. That screw and that green sling are etched indelibly in my mind—sheer terror seems to enhance the ability to recall events.
There was no carabiner attached to it and it certainly looked to me like a piece from which the leader lowered off. If Steve really reached the 70 degree upper couloir, why did he not clean that screw and sling when rappelling down? We were all impecunious back then and none of us left pricey screws without reason. Why would he leave just this one piece and clean everything else? Also, as I mentioned in the article, Tobin finished this pitch and it was miraculous that he was able to find a belay anchor by chipping out ice to discover a tiny rock spike. Ice screws were useless up there because the ice was thin. If there were a rappel anchor higher up placed by Steve, believe me, Tobin and I would have found it; we were closely studying every inch of that couloir, as if our lives depended on it, in fact. My article gives credit to your team for discovering the Direct and climbing most of it, but I believe that Steve stopped below the crux of the Direct. Steve, if you’re out there, I would love to hear your view on this.
Jeff,
As Lucas and Gordon’s comments underscore, Tobin should be recognized as one of the top alpinists of our generation, right up there in your lofty company, when the history of 1970’s ice and mixed climbing is considered. I have always thought that Tobin has not gotten enough credit for his great 1977 season in the Alps. That is what my article seeks to remedy and this thread helps as well.
Another shot from the top of the original Dru Couloir route:
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
|
> I have seen references that 300 pitons were used by Desmaison > and company on the first ascent of the Gousseault. I assume
> that these pins were fixed in place as was the custom in
> Europe then, but even if they were not fixed, the French had
> to have carried a huge big-wall rack of pitons on that climb.
> Gordon will confirm that he found on his first attempt, and on > the successful attempt, a lot of equipment remaining on the
> route, including ropes, cached packs full of gas canisters and > other detritus.
Hi Rick,
believe me, the quantity of pitons used an all Desmaisons attempts to the route (including 1971 "near climb" and 1973 success) were far less than 300.
On 1971 (the attempt that ended 80 meters below the summit where Gousseault died), Desmaison took
 2 ropes 50m x 9mm
1 rope 50m x 7mm.
nylon tape 15m x 5 mm (for abseil loops)
4 etriers
40 pitons
25 krabs
6 ice pitons (the old, flat type, not ice screws)
2 hammers
1 ice axe (the classic, long shafted type), plus one "ice hammer"
(plus of course clothes, gaiters, rucksacks, plenty of food etc).
In 1971 he fixed only the first two pitches of the route, then the rest was climbed in normal fashion.
The issue of the gear in 1971 is far from academical, as it was one of the main point of contentions in the huge controversy that followed (that's why I've the full list - it comes from Desmaison). Out of the blue, Renč was accused to have "underestimated" the mountain, and to have provoked Gousseault death trying to climb the mountain in "light" style (I know that 40 pitons aren't exactly light, but that was 1971!)
When Gousseault's conditions began to dwindle (on February 18), his ability to remove piton decreased dramatically, with the result that Desmaison had to fix almost the pitches above the 25th, then abseil down, remove the pitons, then prusik the rope up again recovering the ailing Gousseault in the process. This slowed down their progress to three pitches per day, with made Gousseault's chances to survive even slimmer.
In 1973 Desmaison, Claret and Giorgio (Bertone) took a similar quantity of material (the pitons were again 50), but the quality was more "modern" (they had few ice screws, hammoks etc), and had more rope (as another crucial factor of the 1971 disaster was that the climber got the reatreat cut when one of their ropes was trashed by stonefall.
The first stash of material found by Gordon (and that disintegrated when Gordon tried to recover it) was abandoned in 1973, when the climbers decided that they had too much gas/food. The fixed ropes on the lower pitches where the results of few years of attempts. The single fixed rope below the junction of the "first ramp" with the direct start taken by Gordon was abandoned in winter 1972 by Desmaison and Bertone during an aborted attempt to complete the climb.
The famous Millet sack at the end of the "rateu des chevres" (below the start of the final ramp) was empty, and I believe it was left there on purpose by Desmaison
>With respect to the Harlin route on the Eiger, it is well documented that fixed ropes were strung almost from top to bottom on the first ascent. I think that we can agree at least that this route was “sieged” on its first ascent.
Absolutely no arguing here: the Harlin route was climbed as a full siege style, kitchen sink included - actually, was the epythome of that trend. The same applies to the Directe de L'Amitič. So, their eventual repeat in alpine, single push style by MacIntyre/Sorenson (the former) and Baxter-Jones/Colton (the latter) where really, at least from the psycological point of view, the sign time had changed.
But the Gousseault does NOT belong to that type of climb.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
|
Gordon:
not at all - I really believe that it was one of the biggest exploits on the Alps for that time (and there were plenty of exploits back then).
Even just considering "Scala di Seta" a wee less harder than the Gousseault (after all is rather shorter), it must share the same level of sustained-ness as any other route of that area of the Jorasses. And believe me Gordon, despite the hype, there arent' that many other walls in the Alps that allows you for 1200+ of mixed climbing that's so sustained from start to finish (no initial boring snow slope there, no 800+meters of broken rubble). Maybe the single pitches aren't as hard as many modern technical routes, but the overall level required is just there...
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
|
This thread is really good!
Jack, your story on Huntington reminds me just how far out there you and Simon had gone! Amazing climb. Rick, no doubt about it, Tobin was one of our best. And teamed with Wee Jock, just exactly what couldn't those two climb? Luca, I don't think we've met, have we? At any rate, it's good to have your knowledge and input on Supertopo.
-Jello (Jeff Lowe, for Luca)
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
|
Hi Luca
Actually, I reckon that the pitch that Tobin led on the red tower WAS probably as hard as anything mixed done free in crampons in the alps up to the present. It was a very bold bit of climbing (scared the crap out of me - especially as I couldn't see anything - just hear the jangling of the gear, the scratching of his crampons, the bleating for skyhooks, and then he came flying down out of the storm clouds way over to my right (or left as I believe I was facing outwards as the time)and stopped with a bang!! Twice!!). I was very happy having a top-rope on that pitch, let me tell you!!
Desmaison certainly left a lot of gear (and Gaz) in those sacks just below the junction ... and having rapped down that start it looked like it was pretty well fixed - not the ropes, but the pitons were all in place...Black Nick and I used just one jammed knot to rapp off (at an easier part) - the rest was off fixed pegs. I suspect that at least the first quarter of the climb was fixed - up to and including , even, the 'A1' pitch, perhaps, again not so much with ropes but the pegs were 'prepared' - Tobin and I saw a fair amount of tatty old stuff - bits of rope, rusty pegs etc - for a couple of pitches past the junction...which we ignored ... and then Wrygob mentioned that they saw a lot of fixed stuff including rope higher up. Kingy, Dirty Alex and I found a lot of gear, including bits of old rope, in place on all the hard sections when we climbed most of Desmaison's start in 1975 ... it was hard work avoiding it!! We traversed into the Shroud from about 50 meters below the sacks. (BTW, did Desmaison in 1968 not do pretty much what we did in 1975 for the Shroud - avoid the bottom ice-goulottes (there was all sorts of stuff coming down them) by climbing up those rocks on the right??)
Certainly Desmaison did not 'siege' the entire Goussault in the sense that Seigneur and Harlin did for their climbs, but they did 'work' the route - more in the modern sense, perhaps??!
I'm sure that I read - perhaps it was in the Vallot guide that I got a few years later (dunno where that book's got to, now) - that they used 340 pegs ... I assume that they made 340 piton placements rather than 'equipping' the route with 340 pegs, also for belays and runners, not necessarily just for aid. That would be just an average of 9 placements per pitch, including belays, runners and aid! There were some chrome-molly and hard steel pegs in the sacks Black Nick and I found that would be 'reusable' (I, ahem, found a leeper, a silvery Stubai channel peg and a kingpin that were spared by the crevasses at the bottom which I, ahem, appropriated and used on our ascent, or at least the leeper was used) in addition to strings of soft steel pegs most of which disappeared into the crevasses. I suspect that they were left on the route 'a priori' to fix more of the route for the 1973 ascent, but the team decided not to bother, in the event, preparing any more and left them behind. Decided just to go for the top.
Bit of a 'sentimental' moment, finding the empty sack on the Rateau de Chevre...I assume Desmaison just jammed all the gear into his own sack and left Goussault's behind??
Interesting route, historically!!
Question for you, Luca - I get the impression that Demaison actually fixed most of the original start to the Goussault when he did the Shroud - I have the idea in my head that he fixed the bottom section on the Shroud climb, avoiding the goulottes, and that the original Shroud and the Goussault shared the same start. Do you think, did Desmaison fix the start of the Shroud - and then just check out the first couple of pitches with Goussault before making their assault, or was the Goussault entirely new??
For Rick A - I think that Luca entirely agrees that the Harlin and the Seigneur were entirely sieged - and that the ascents by Tobin, Dirty Alex, Black Nick and RBJ signalled the arrival of a new approach to 'super-route' climbing in the alps. I think Luca is pointing out that the Desmaison was not a seiged climb in the same sense ... that it prefigured the change over, being more of an in-between climb. My own opinion is that the Desmaison was a 'worked' rather than seiged ascent, and that Desmaison et al, followed by Tobin and me were the 'missing link' so to speak between old and modern alpinism...Desmaison (and Bertone) were half way there ... Tobin and I finished the job off (even it it was on a more direct line than the Goussault itself). Of course I had better say PDQ that Gabarrou and Boivin were pretty quick on the uptake!! And Cecchinel and Nomine had the right idea, of course!! The Dru Couloir Direct, by the by, was more in line with the technically hard new 'couloir ascents' that Cecchinel and Nomine, and Boivin and Gabarrou were into...which prefigure modern ice climbing.
Luca - did Grassi come into his stride a wee bit later? in the 80's?
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
|
Gordon, you should make a list of the gear you and Tobin took on the Gousseault to highlight the differences between the first and the second ascent!
I will concede that the Gousseault wasn’t technically seiged, but the difference in style between the first and second ascent is stark. Black Nick and the Brits succeeded in their goal of climbing three of the hardest alpine routes — the Harlin on the Eiger , and the Gousseault and the Directe de L’amitie on the Jorasses —in better style than the first ascents, albeit with some help from that cheeky yank, Tobin; on two out of the three!
Join me tonight in raising a glass to Tobin; how I wish he were here.
Tobin descending from the Dru.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 12:30am PT
|
My glass of Jolly Roger is raised for Tobin and his mates. Praise to partners and the persistence of memory.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 12:39am PT
|
Rick A: I would, I would!! (Only it would be apple-juice ... Tobin having been a tee-totaller and I only drink very sparingly (the wife insisted that I drink wine last night - Feb 14!!) - it's also just after lunch here...it's tomorrow as well!!) I feel that it was one of those 'dammit!!' things ... getting frostbitten - Tobin and I were planning the Harlin as #3, then the Matterhorn as #4. At least he got them, I suppose - he did phone me at my mum's house in Scotland to ask if I was coming back, but I was a little bit worried about the skin-grafts on my frostbitten feet and anyway I was totally broke and had to work. I just wish that I hadn't led us up the garden path after our first bivouac as we then would have finished the route without the second bivi and without the storm. Oh well, c'est la vie!! As Jack said, he WAS a loveable guy and very easy to get along with indeed. But bold!! I don't know if I could have gone back up after those two long falls he took! Pity he never knew that he probably has his own route on the Walker Spur!!
Luca ... I've been rereading Benoist's topo of the route ... seems to me that he didn't do the complete original start but traversed in from the Shroud's goulottes, at least he didn't go the way Kingy, Dirty Alex and I did. It also strikes me that if his grades are accurate then the actual climbing that Tobin and I did in the upper section was much harder and more sustained, though maybe 3 pitches shorter - we did lots of hard mixed climbing in crampons on steep rock - slabs, walls, overhangs - plastered in very thin ice and verglass - that was at least as hard as the hardest stuff I climbed in Scotland ... Very sustained climbing with mostly hanging/semi hanging belays from the point that we split off up right. I remember vaguely that Tobin wrote a spiel for Mountain Mag about it - does anyone have it?? He remarked in that how exhausting the climbing was, and that we were in pretty poor condition when we got to the top( I didn't realise about the frostbite, however, until we got down to the hut ... just knew that my feet were very cold)!! And boy, were we hungry!!
Just a tit-bit to pull Ricky's chain a little (Rick, how I love to pull your chain, you attorney, you!!) It seems that some French don't even seem willing to recognise that we ever did the route ... Benoist, in relating the history of the climb before talking of his ascent, only recognises the second WINTER ascent (ie French in 2000), and doesn't mention ours - autumn doesn't count?? Doesn't that get you going!! Well I suppose, now, that maybe he was right!
For Steve - great article by Rob Collister! Looks like he was using Chouinard gear. I remember reading that article and being really inspired to go out and climb Point Five the next year (with my Chouinard axe and dinky little Salewa hammer). The other thing that inspired me was Big Ian Nicholson's solo ascent of Point Five the year or so before Collister's ascent with Cohen. Very inspiring indeed!!
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 01:43am PT
|
Wee Jock - as I remember, the French were a bit at a loss when the English speakers got up their hallowed routes. I think that they couldn't grasp that climbers that honed their skills on small crags or outside of the Chamonix area could have the skills to play in their mountains. Of course if any of the Peter Minks stories are even half true, I can see why anyone speaking English or some American or Scottish variant of it might be regarded with a high degree of suspicion. You and your bunch of pranksters seemed to be having lots of fun and climbing hard stuff so we tried to follow your example.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 01:52am PT
|
You wouldn't care to elaborate on the aforementioned Minks mischief, would you, Todd?!?
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 02:28am PT
|
Rick:
>Gordon, you should make a list of the gear you and Tobin took on the Gousseault to highlight the differences between the first and the second ascent!
Gordon and Tobin did NOT make the second ascent (actually, it would have been the third, however) of the Gousseault - they climbed a completely new route (Gordon has proposed a name - "Scala di Seta" - in Italian), with only three or four pitches in common with the Gousseault! This make their feat MUCH bigger (in my opinion) that a mere repeat would have been, and elevates as one of the most relevant climbs ever done on the GJ and the entire Alps
>I will concede that the Gousseault wasn’t technically sieged, but the difference in style between the first and second ascent is stark.
I think I can't make myself explained on this. The style of 1971 (and 1973) climbs of the Gousseault was - how we can say - "classic": the same style used by Bonatti in his great climbs. No front ponting tecniques (or piolet traction), and thus the climbers had to maximize rock climbing vs ice climbing, that was necessarily cumbersome and slow. In many ways, Desmaison (and Bonatti!) were at big disadvantage than their younger counterparts after 1973, as the use of two ice tools allowed for faster, more efficient ice climbing on much steeper ice. It's basically step cutting vs. front pointing - step cutting is not "worse" style at all, just more cumbersome!
Two months ago a friend of mine interviewed Bonatti on this, and the old man was quite blunt (as usual!) on this: he considers all the repeats of his north face of Grand Pilier D'Angle route done in the 70's as cheating - he and Zappelli did step cutting all the way up!
What said above was NOT the case for the Harlin Direct on Eiger or the Directe de L'Amitič, who were genuinely besieged in mammoth and very unethical fashion (particularly the Amitič, considering the first climb was done in 1974), so their first alpine style/single push ascents were actual improvements (and, btw, were treated as such even back then!)
However, let me repeat it here: Gordon and Tobin did NOT make a repeat, they climbed a new route! In case nobody now, it's the only route on the Jorasses opened by an American!
>Join me tonight in raising a glass to Tobin; how I wish he were here.
Absolutely, he was one of the greats, and I've always believed his achievements in the Alps were terribly underrated.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 03:03am PT
|
I must comment on the fact that Wee Jock and his friends were not part of the Minks episodes but were probably where I heard them from. These accounts had reached legendary proportions when I had first heard them in 76. Evidently in the early 70s the British Pound was running rather weak to the French Franc and the exchange rate was most unfavorable to visiting Brits. Typical Alpine weather demanded long stays in the Chamonix Valley in order to capitalize on the few windows of good weather. With funds running short extreme measures were occasionally taken to secure food stocks. In one purported incident, Mr. Minks had gone grocery shopping wearing his down jacket and when settling up for a Mars Bar at the counter, a greasy roto chicken from the revolving roaster fell out of the jacket. In a state of confusion, it was rumored that M. Minks picked up said roto chicken and beaned the checkout girl as he made his hasty exit. Of course this was as I heard the story in 76. Now the other story might have not involved Mr. Minks but did involve the disappearance of many kilos of desiccated sausage that hung from hooks above the bar at a local drinking hole. The heist was allegedly accomplished by stuffing a Franc coin into a light socket that caused the lights throughout the bar to go off. When the lights came back on the sausages were gone. Snell's Field (camping) was searched but the no suspects or meat were found. The locals took a rather dim view of these events but to me they seemed to fit in with "hard" image I had come to expect from the Brits. Wee Jock and his friends, unlike the legendary Brits of these stories, were not crazed but rather super competent and fairly normal.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 03:32am PT
|
Gordon:
>Desmaison certainly left a lot of gear (and Gaz) in those sacks just below the junction ... and having rapped down that start it looked like it was pretty well fixed - not the ropes, but the pitons were all in place...
A lot of pitons (not the ropes or the gaz) that you did find on the starting pitches - I meanwhen you did the attempt with Nick were not just left by Desmaison. Those pitches had been climbed for years, as early as 1962, I believe that Berardini and Paragot were the first to get there. The reasons it's of course that they were the most convenient way to access the Linceuil without climbing those ice pitches of the R start (the start more often used now). In fact, I believe you saw there a lot of stuff left by Desmaison in 1968 (you mention this in your post, few lines later)
> Certainly Desmaison did not 'siege' the entire Goussault in the sense that Seigneur and Harlin did for their climbs, but they did 'work' the route - more in the modern sense, perhaps?
Well, yes, the start was certainly worked out. But anything above the wall leading to the first ramp (where you find an old rope), was "terra incognita" when Desmaison climbed it with Gousseault. And, as you experienced on your own, it's a place where it's easy to get lost!
>I'm sure that I read - perhaps it was in the Vallot guide that I got a few years later (dunno where that book's got to, now) - that they used 340 pegs ... I assume that they made 340 piton placements rather than 'equipping'
No, the Vallot 1979 (Volume IV) doesn't mention the number of pitons. Gino Buscaini knew Giorgio Bertone and Desmaison well, he got the route topo directly from them. The "330 pitons" is just a number that popped out here and there, has no basis on reality.
> Bit of a 'sentimental' moment, finding the empty sack on the Rateau de Chevre...I assume Desmaison just jammed all the gear into his own sack and left Goussault's behind??
I've a theory on this, but I'll left it for my book... ;).
>Of course I had better say PDQ that Gabarrou and Boivin were pretty quick on the uptake!! And Cecchinel and Nomine had the right idea, of course!! The Dru Couloir Direct, by the by, was more in line with the technically hard new 'couloir ascents' that Cecchinel and Nomine, and Boivin and Gabarrou were into...which prefigure modern ice climbing.
True: It should be noted however that all those routes where climbed quite early in the developement of "piolet tractions" - the Dru Couloir was first climbed in December 1973, the Supercouloir of Tacul was climbed in 1975. But I've my opinions on this - I hope Gabarrou will not get offended if he'll ever read this, but those early climbs where basically nothing truly new, as I believe that you Brits/Scots did much of the same thing back home in the same years - and earlier.
In my humble opinion (I take complete blame for this!) the real revolution in the Alps began in 1977, when Giancarlo Grassi and Gianni Comino came into the steep ice arena. Because they saw that those new tools could be used for: not just long difficult alpine lines (often on par with earlier stuff - I'm being told that the Lesueur '58 route on the NF of the Drus is much more difficult that the NE couloir of the same mountain), but real NEW and outrageous stuff - south facing couloirs of rotten ice, phantom/ephemeral lines, climbing seracs, and of course technical water icefall in winter.
> Luca - did Grassi come into his stride a wee bit later? in the 80's?
Giancarlo began climbing in the 60's, in his teens. He climbed the Walker spur on the Jorasses in 1968, just 19 years old. In the early 70's he did a lot of hard rock climbing, in 1973 he climbed "Sole Nascente" on the Orco Valley together with Giampiero Motti and your very own Mike Kosterlitz - first truly modern (i.e. Yosemite style) climb done in continental Europe. He began to take interest on steep ice climbing when he met Gianni Comino (who was much younger than him), and in the three years that they climbed together they literally changed the face of the sport. Then Gianni died in 1980 on the Brenva face of Mt. Blanc in an attempt to solo the big seracs on the R of the Poire (which he did almost complete - he was killed by an avalanche shortly below the summit ridge), and Giancarlo continued with different partners all through the 80's, climbing thousands of new lines (insane stuff, tracking his whole activity would be impossible even for me!). I think is masterpiece remains the Phantom Direct on the South Face of the Jorasses, still unrepeated today. He died in 1992 at 48, in a banal climbing accident he would have survived if rescue had not been botched.
>I've been rereading Benoist's topo of the route ... seems to me that he didn't do the complete original start but traversed in from the Shroud's goulottes, at least he didn't go the way Kingy, Dirty Alex and I did
There are FOUR different start for the Gousseault
1) The 1971 start - it's the one used by Benoist and Glairon-Rappatz (the one of the topo)
2) the 1973 start - the one you used in the first attempt
3) the "scottish/american" start :-) (the one you used with Tobin, and later - probably - used by the Chechs in 1979 when they opened "Rolling Stone"
4) The Berhault "shortcut" - in 2001 he first climbed the R hand start of the Linceuil, then traversed on the Gousseault just below the start of the second ramp. Saved one if not two days of climbing with that, but it's more or less a cheat....
>It seems that some French don't even seem willing to recognise that we ever did the route ... Benoist, in relating the history of the climb before talking of his ascent, only recognises the second WINTER ascent (ie French in 2000),
No, he knew about your ascent, I'm being told he's a climbing history aficionado like I am (the difference being that he climb all these big routes after reading about them, while I'm here discussing with you on Internet!). He meant "second winter ascent" really just as the second winter ascent, that's all.
Gordon, you're a terrible influence in my climbing life, I was supposed to be ice climbing today, and I'm still here boring everyone to tears with the history of the GJ!
;)
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 03:34am PT
|
> Luca, I don't think we've met, have we? At any rate, it's good to have your knowledge and input on Supertopo.
Hi Jeff,
thanks, my pleasure to be here. I don't think we've met, but we may have few common acquaintances.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 05:30am PT
|
Hi Luca
You should not be reading this until tomorrow - so don't answer till then at the earliest as I'll be pissed off at you for screwing up an ice climbing day ... sometimes, except for when my wife is being very nice to me, I yearn for snow and ice and big North Walls!!
I understand completely about the 'attempts for years' in approaching the Shroud - that first bit of the Goussault was well enough known. Our 1975 approach to the Shroud was via the 1973 opening of the Goussault, I'm sure', and my RETREAT with Black Nick was down that same line. My first attempt on the Desmaison with Black Nick was the same line that Tobin and I later followed.
I'm pretty sure that on multiple attempts at the Desmaison before the 1973 ascent a lot of preparation of the route was done up the 1st ramp to the A1 pitch and perhaps beyond, with a lot of pegs 'preplaced' - we saw scraps of fixed rope on harder spots up the 1st ramp. I suspect that the attempt with Goussault may have been much 'purer', in that respect?? There seems to have been a lot of gear in place - much more than 40-50 pitons would suggest!
According to Lindsay Griffin there seems to be some doubt as to where Rolling Stone actually started .... Lindsay commented to me that there is a lot of confusion as where those 'mythical' routes on the Walker go!!
>>Well, yes, the start was certainly worked out. But anything above the wall leading to the first ramp (where you find an old rope), was "terra incognita" when Desmaison climbed it with Gousseault. And, as you experienced on your own, it's a place where it's easy to get lost
Actually, I don't think that the Desmaison route is hard to find at all, at least up to the headwall,(except perhaps around the 'A1' pitch at the end of the 1st ramp, according to Benoist) if you go out to climb the ramps ... ask Wrygob - he commented to me 'how the bloody hell could you miss the route??' - only we weren't out to climb the ramps, we were out to climb the direct - we just didn't know that we SHOULD have been looking to climb the ramps!! What confuses me is that Desmaison definitely talked of his route being the 'direct' of the face ... if he wanted to do the direct, how come he didn't climb the route we did? Also, why did the route he did not end on the Hirondelles? It seems to be a route that naturally parallels the Shroud. Why did he dog leg in the way that he did? If you ask me the route that Tobin and I did SHOULD have taken the 1973 start, right across the ramps, and the route that Desmaison did SHOULD have taken the 1977 start - straight up the ramps... (The only place where we got 'lost' was when we tried to avoid coming back down from our 1st bivi and facing the horrible 'slot' ... eventually we realised that what we were doing was totally illogical (cheating) so we went back down and did things properly - up the slot.) We essentially followed our noses and the line we followed across all those parallel ramps was, perhaps by magic, all there .... a 'silken ladder'!!
>>True: It should be noted however that all those routes where climbed quite early in the developement of "piolet tractions" - the Dru Couloir was first climbed in December 1973, the Supercouloir of Tacul was climbed in 1975. But I've my opinions on this - I hope Gabarrou will not get offended if he'll ever read this, but those early climbs where basically nothing truly new, as I believe that you Brits/Scots did much of the same thing back home in the same years - and earlier.
What I meant here was that Cecchinel, Gabarrou et al were correct in seeing that the FUTURE was in high standard front pointing (thanks to Chouinard and Cunningham ... ie relate this note to the OP) and not in the 'old' French and German techniques - not so much in the difficulty of those routes.
There were 2 revolutions in Alpinism, IMHO - the second somewhat dependent on the first ... first the destruction of the old 'hallowed' ways - at the peak of which was Seigneur on the Whymper, Harlin and the Germans (particularly the Germans) on the Eiger and Haston/Bonnington on the right flank of the Walker. The attitude that climbs like the Walker and the Eiger and the Matterhorn were climbs only for supermen and that any 'bigger' climbs required Himalayan techniques - thrown to the winds (but note for example Bonatti and Vaucher's accomplishment on the Whymper (but they WERE supermen)!!). The second was your ice climbing revolution - originated by the dru and supercouloirs and then refined by Grassi and Gabarrou and the hordes that have come after. Hey, I think my 'Baumont-Smith' came in there somewhere ... the first alpine route done with a reverse banana pick (that became a commercial product).... To keep this note in line with the OP it was the second revolution that derived from Chouinard and Cunningham. The first derived a great deal from the powder snow bloody mindedness of Patey and the Aberdonians in Scotland in the 50's and the 'great unwashed tide of Brits' in the 70s. Cecchinel and Gabarrou cottoned on PDQ in the early 70's, to start your ice revolution.
'nuff babble. Sorry about hijacking your thread Steve, but we should all be grateful for Luca's input in spite of his self effacement!! And Chouinard was somewhere at the start of all this revolting!!
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 06:13am PT
|
My how this post has grown!! You could be right Rick but I hope I haven't been thinking all these many years that we almost had it in the bag.......
What I most remember from belaying Steve at that point was him yelling,
"I've reached the main coulouir. Come on up"! And I definately remember the reason we came down as what I mentioned. Of course you are right about none of us willing to leave a single piece of gear behind during a retreat. Especially if it wasn't needed.
You probably ARE right. My memory is most likely befuddled. I never got to the belay and I don't remember any conversation following or during our retreat. You and Tobin never got the credit you deserved for that climb. My memory IS clear on how hard it was up there...
There were some great climbs and climbers doing amazing routes in the Alps back then. I think Tobin's ascent with Alex of the Harlin route impressed me the most.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 06:14am PT
|
Luca - one last point ... why do you imply that Goussault and Desmaison did the first ascent ... They didn't quite make it to the top ... almost but not quite - Desmaison hauled up on a wire the last 300 feet ... Desmaison, Bertone, Claret did the first ascent, surely - unless you are being a bit 'romantic' (in the correct sense of the word!) about the original epic.
Also - you ARE still working on your book???? I sincerely hope so!!!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 08:08am PT
|
Gordon,
Not drinking much? Based on my past acquaintance with Scottish climbers, that does not seem to be in keeping with the finest traditions of Scottish Mountaineering! And this reminds me of a quote from Winston Churchill, something about the finest traditions of the British Navy…
Like Luca, I’m delaying going off to play in the mountains while I write this, but I’ll be riding downhill on fresh powder snow, not ice climbing. Ice climbing is “too much like hard work,” in the immortal words of Tom Patey.
Rick
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 08:58am PT
|
Rick: I was always really good at making a half pint last the whole evening. Never been much of a drinker. Meanwhile I am eating my heart out at the thought of you weasels going out into the powder snow!! Today I walked the dog through the jungle which was still steaming after days of tropical downpour! I keep going and looking up at the cliffs above the beach ... the jungle approach has been too much so far to keep me from them! Plus sheer, unadulterated indolence! Couple of interesting birds around today - fluorescent yellow plumage. Don't know bugger all about anything wild out here - I rely on my wife who seems to know everything, except she never knows the English names for things!
Dammit, that kitten's back - feral kitten hanging around outside yowling. Tiny but FIERCE. I brought it in to feed it and it ripped me apart, then the dog got jealous and chased it away. But its back!
Have you tried ice-climbing with these modern leashless axes with the bent handles? And mono-points? Weird!! Anyone asked YC what he thinks of them ... or is YC just into the clothes business these days?
Happy skiing (and climbing for Luca), you beasts!
Gordon
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 11:45am PT
|
Man is the quotable Churchill entertaining!!! As regards thirst.....
"I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me."
And the aftermath....
"I like a man who grins when he fights."
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I'll be sober and you will still be ugly."
Outstanding material!
Wee Jock- There's always another cat to replace the one that wanders or vanishes. The greater continuity of cats---- we have five in upper management here at the house. LOL
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
|
Gordon:
>You should not be reading this until tomorrow - so don't answer till then at the earliest as I'll be pissed off at you for screwing up an ice climbing day ... sometimes, except for when my wife is being very nice to me, I yearn for snow and ice and big North Walls!!
As it turned out it was too late for any decent ice climbing, but I still spent three hours happily snowshoeing in a remote valley - a place you would definitely like to see!
Try to find the time to come here Gordon, I will show you places you wouldn't believe still exists in the Alps!!
> I'm pretty sure that on multiple attempts at the Desmaison before the 1973 ascent a lot of preparation of the route was done up the 1st ramp to the A1 pitch and perhaps beyond, with a lot of pegs 'preplaced' - we saw scraps of fixed rope on harder spots up the 1st ramp. I suspect that the attempt with Goussault may have been much 'purer', in that respect?? There seems to have been a lot of gear in place - much more than 40-50 pitons would suggest!
Definitely no for the 1971 climb , as (as I've explained) Desmaison was much more interested in demonstrating that he and Gousseault had attempted the route with enough material to be sure to get on the top, rather than make an ethical point that in France 1971 no one was interested in hearing.
It must be explained here that the main point made against Desmaison after the 1971 disaster was that the whole climb had been just a gross publicity stunt gone wrong. More precisely, he got accused to have DELIBERATELY waited for days on the small terrace 80 meters below the summit, in order to maximize the media attention on the climb. In all honesty, they had a point here - Desmaison had a deal with L'Equipe that was paid in "days of climb" - the more the ascent lasted, the more money you got. That was standard practice in those days - have you ever wondered WHY all these climbs seemed to last forever? In parte the slow pace was due to the tecniques available back then, but in part that was deliberate.
The big point of contention was that on Saturday 20th February, after Desmaison and Gousseault had been stopped on that ledge for two days, a reconaissance heli of the PGHM came to see what was going on, and the pilot radioed back to the base that the two looked fine, and Desmaison had made a "thumb up" sign. Coupled with the fact that Desmaison's wife (Simone) insisted for reconaissance flight but was NOT formally asking for rescue, this provoked a ugly reaction from the Gendarmerie, who point blank accused Mrs. Desmaison to "have been pulling their legs".
Desmaison version was that he made a gesture with is hands meaning "keep us up - i.e. rescue us". This mess had anyway the effect to create the standard "asking for rescue" gestures you're familiar with (two hands up means "calling rescue / yes", one hand up one down means "don't need rescue / no")
In any case, a lot of people got convinced that Desmaison had lied - they even did make a TV movie in 1975, called "Mort D'Une Guide", loosely based on this version of the story (the movie threw Gaston Rebuffat in an uncharacteristic fit of rage)
In 1973 Desmaison just wanted to climb the bloody route and get finished with it, so he really took a bit more material (ropes, mainly), taking also advantage that he had Claret and Giorgio with him. All the material you have seen above the first ramp where 1973 relics - there's very little left from 1971, excluding the sad and empty Millet sac on the "rateau des chevres"
>According to Lindsay Griffin there seems to be some doubt as to >where Rolling Stone actually started .... Lindsay commented to >me that there is a lot of confusion as where those 'mythical' >routes on the Walker go!!
The doubt is mainly mine, I've been talking a lot with Lindsay on that in the last few weeks. I've NEVER been happy with the "regular" description that's always been given on the original "Rolling Stone" in 1979, chiefly because it doesn't make much sense. I believe they started there (your starting variant, I mean), but they soon moved well into the R, towards the centre of the spur. Do you remember you fist bivy place on "Scala di Seta"? You may remember also that straight above your head there was a huge monolith/tower that seen from the Leschaux hut looks like a giant open hand. Your route touches it below and slightly on the L, while I'm convinced that the Czechs 1979 passed above and on the R (as Gabarrou 1986 direttissima). The "regular" Rolling Stone as it's been always shown was in fact a mixture of your line and the line followed in 1985 by Eric Gramond and C. I should really get in touch with Gramond and ask him which gear he saw, and why he did not follow your line to the top. Too many thing to do and not enough time!
> What confuses me is that Desmaison definitely talked of his route being the 'direct' of the face ... if he wanted to do the direct, how come he didn't climb the route we did? Also, why did the route he did not end on the Hirondelles? It seems to be a route that naturally parallels the Shroud. Why did he dog leg in the way that he did? If you ask me the route that Tobin and I did SHOULD have taken the 1973 start, right across the ramps, and the route that Desmaison did SHOULD have taken the 1977 start - straight up the ramps...
Waiwaitwait - the line on the ramps was the one Desmaison wanted to follow, period. He wasn't interested on leaving the ramps until these ended. Problems began at the "Arrow", the small snow ridge where Gousseault first showed signs of exaustion. Desmaison original plan for the exit isn't totally clear, but I strongly believe he wanted to link the third ramp with the immense corner/depression made between the Hirondelles and the NE face of the spur (it's the line followed by Sachetat and Seguier in 1983 as "direct" exit from the Linceuil - it goes straight to the summit of Pt. Walker). Very elegant - problem is that when Desmaison got there 1) Gousseault was starting to be ill and 2) ice conditions were atrocious. Add to this that the rock in this "corner" is absolute crap, you had a taste of its quality on the "prow" of your route. It's even worse than the Tour Rousse on the original Cassin line. So he made a R turn towards the crest of the spur, along the line of minimum resistance. When he got to the "rateau des chevres", a traverse to the Tour Rousse (or on your "prow") was out of question with the ailing Gousseault.
Your line if very elegant, but I believe Desmaison's line as a life of his own.
What I meant here was that Cecchinel, Gabarrou et al were correct in seeing that the FUTURE was in high standard front pointing (thanks to Chouinard and Cunningham ... ie relate this note to the OP) and not in the 'old' French and German techniques - not so much in the difficulty of those routes.
> (but note for example Bonatti and Vaucher's accomplishment on the Whymper (but they WERE supermen)!!).
BTW, Bonatti has repeated recently to my friend that he really disliked that route, at least as he climbed it in 1964
> Luca - one last point ... why do you imply that Goussault and Desmaison did the first ascent ... They didn't quite make it to the top ... almost but not quite - Desmaison hauled up on a wire the last 300 feet ... Desmaison, Bertone, Claret did the first ascent, surely - unless you are being a bit 'romantic' (in the correct sense of the word!) about the original epic.
Until not long ago, I used to think as you do - the last 80m had to be climbed for the route to be really opened. And I grew up worshipping Giorgio Bertone (the guy was charismatic beyond belief), so the 1973 climb WAS the first climb for me.
But now I wonder. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe I've been reading "342 heures dans les Grandes Jorasses" a bit too much recently (it's a wonderful book, a crime it was never translated in English - I believe - as it makes "Touching the Void" look like "Winnie The Pooh"). In any case, Gousseault suffered soo much to try to get out alive, and Desmaison fought sooo hard to help him out. And what was done on them was sooo ugly and injust, it really rates for me as the second greatest ugliest mess of the history of alpine climbing (after - guess what? - the Corti affair on Eiger in 1958). So, now I think that out of mere respect, the 1971 should be considered the first climb. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you're right, and I'm getting romantic!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
|
Rick A:
just a little clarification on what I wrote few messages ago on the NE couloir of the Drus was related to the original 1973 line, NOT your direct variant, which is definitely much, much harder.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
|
I looked up that quote I referred to above and it was not Churchill, but his assistant, Anthony Montague-Brown who said it. Someone mentioned the great traditions of the Royal Navy. Montague replied,
“The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the lash.”
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
|
Not sure this does the trick but defintely timely! From Mountain 50 July-August 76 more of the exploits of Wee Jock, who hasn't hijacked anything except my imagination! This will make your inner kitty claw up the sofa!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 01:36am PT
|
Continuing good stuff, here. But to include the Desmaison on the Grandes Jorasses in a thread about ice climbing is a little like featuring a steak on the menu at a vegetarian restaurant. If we're talking the evolution of ice climbing, in the Alps it would be something like the Triolet-Les Droite-Dru Couloir-Super Couloir-MacKintyre Colton-then off to the greater ranges with a return home in the early nineties to further take advantage of improved gear, fitness and attitude on the big cascades like La Massue; the huge tapestries on the Tete du Gramusat, etc.
A similar path could be traced in North America. But, in the end, all roads lead to the Himalaya.
-Jello
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 02:07am PT
|
Ice from the weekend. With Chouinard represented on this one by BD.
Wee Jock asks, "Have you tried ice-climbing with these modern leashless axes with the bent handles? And mono-points? Weird!!"
Weird? No question. But you would never believe just how much easier ice is these days with the newest gear.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 06:43am PT
|
Ah, Jello ... ice climbing is for the meatheads, mixed climbing in the OLD style is for the ballet dancers among us!! Don't you think that ice climbing is relentlessly boring, if a little strenuous - until the ice all falls down leaving Mons. l'Alpiniste with wet and nasty pantaloons!! The craft and cunning that is required to get up a sugary Cairngorm winter ridge or buttress, sniffing out the frozen vegetation, licking the ice with the tongue to check the consistency, testing the snow with a primed digit, tenderly feeling out the rock holds underneath. Ah yes! There's the game for you, my lad. You were pretty good at it too, as I recall!! Ice climbing only gets interesting when the ice disappears to less than an inch thick!! I seem to remember a thread on here somewhere about climbing thin ice ... like slab climbing, wasn't it?
Your old pal Goggs
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 06:48am PT
|
Ah, Steve. Much easier is it? Like climbing on the Etive Slabs with ultra sticky-soled rock slippers instead of good old EB's, I suppose. I have to admit that I regret that I never tried out the old, manly step hacking style of Marshall and Smith ... That would have put hairs on my chest, no doubt about it!!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 06:59am PT
|
Jello, old bean, the Colton-MacIntyre is a mixed route like the Desmaison ... only not quite as hard. The Desmaison, from doing bits and looking at the rest close up, at any rate, seems to include lots of runnels, goulottes, bulges of grey and brittle nastiness with a bunch of mixed ground intermixed too. As I recall the Supercouloir original start (and crux)is mixed ground, the dru couloir has mixed climbing including an A1 crack. On the SuperCouloir the interesting part IS the first part. The rest is plodding up ice with moderately steep bulges in it to stop you going to sleep! The ice in the Dru Couloir is incredibly boring! Where do you draw the line? No wonder you have to go off to the Himalaya to find ice climbing worth your metal ... It's more fun surely, though, being able to breathe while you climb your route!!
Your old pal Goggs
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 07:06am PT
|
Hi Luca
What did Bonatti say about the B/V? Why did he dislike it?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 07:18am PT
|
Todd, Kingy is a prude and therefore so long as he was around we never got up to naughtiness ... with the exception of, of course, the great Polythene Roll Expedition of 1975. When Kingy wasn't around ... hmm, trips to the 'Piscine, inside pool' with empty backpacks at night, the Empty Bottle Caper, the Wine Kiosk Kaper.... I hang my head in shame!!! There are a couple of skeletons in everyone's closet - except Kingy, he only had the one (polythene) skeleton in his closet! But boy, was it fun, especially with the Burgess Twins around!!
I missed the famous Alpenstock brawl ... I think that was the year before Kingy and I went Alpineering, or we were up on the hill or something (Kingy would have had nothing to do with it anyway .... we were a right pair of cowards, Kingy and I!!) - sounded like it was fit for a raunchy western movie, that one!!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 10:25am PT
|
You Brits were mere amateurs when it came to capers in Chamonix. Roast chickens concealed in duvets are small time. One Yank who was there in 1977 "nicked" an entire, three-foot in diameter, wheel of Gruyere cheese, which he shared with everyone at Snell Field for weeks afterwards.
David Bowie’s “Spiders from Mars” album was on the jukebox at the Bar Nationale and one song had the line, “the bitter comes out better on a stolen guitar”. This yank could be heard singing as he made breakfast, “the omelet comes out better with a stolen Gruyere...”
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 10:37am PT
|
Too damn funny! It would be hilarious to talk to the Chamonix gendarmes and find out their greatest hits. Some of the best SAR stories that I have heard are around still because of the incident reports.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
|
Gordon:
> What did Bonatti say about the B/V? Why did he dislike it?
He's not really eager to talk about it. Apparently, the danger (because of rockfall) was not acceptable even for his standard. And I understand he had some sort of fall off with Vaucher afterwards, because of something Vaucher told to the press. In any case, he's not considering it a route he would suggest for a repeat.
The rumour in Courmayeur back in the 70's (when he was living there - as a kid I used to meet him quite often) was that the Whymper "rib" was one of the reason why he had decided to quite jet set alpinism, but I don't really know if this is the case.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 16, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
|
I don't know about that, Rick ... we used to collect empty wine bottles to take back to the stores for the refund, until we found out where Payot Pertin stored the empties in a skip behind the store. Lived off steak, frites, salad for several weeks on that until a wee wifey came out of a house in the cul de sac and spotted us and started to yell - 'Au secours, au secours!! Les voleurs sont la!' (or something to that effect). We ran, dozens of empty wine bottles flying out of our sacks and smashing everywhere. I had to go apple-picking in Switzerland for a couple of weeks a a result (so that I could eat = that was another story!!).
I'd better watch out with these tales of naughtiness lest Attorney Accommazo stirs himself from his quips and quiddities and comes running at me waving his briefs (horrible sight, a lawyer coming for you, waving his briefs! Terribly indecent!).
In a more serious vein I noticed a couple of photos in UKC in which the 1960's climbers were sporting 'North Wall Hammers' - old fashioned ice axes with a hammer head instead of an aze. Very craftsmanlike looking bits of kit (used for the 'German' technique for ascending fifty degree slopes of ice, no doubt, instead of daggers) Did YC ever make straight picked axes, or did he only get into the business of making ice gear once he'd worked out the advantages of a curved pick? In addition, I seem to remember that YC was very much an afficinado of the French style of climbing ice, and very good at it. Ironic that the technique he was in part responsible for developing should pretty much wipe out climbers' 'interest' in climbing ice in that way.
Luca - interesting stuff about Signor Bonatti - really makes me want to know more!! I guess I'll have to read your book - WHEN YOU GET IT WRITTEN!! Was Vaucher a bit of a 'prima donna' type? The stories from the Dyrenfurth Everest exped were not too complementary about him and his wife. BTW have you ever tried to get Black Nick's story about his ascent of the Amitie with RBJ? I'd really like to hear that one!! I bet they had an absolute epic, nutting their way up steep, crappy rock for 5 days (though of course they would be stiff upper lipped about it)!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 11:23am PT
|
Lucas- Having looked closely at the careers of many alpinists, do you consider Bonatti to be the greatest of his generation?
What would your short list look like?
|
|
east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 11:36am PT
|
great thread- keep it going boys- grandes charmuz north face gets skied by the bad boys these days what do you think of that?
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
|
But now I wonder. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe I've been reading "342 heures dans les Grandes Jorasses" a bit too much recently (it's a wonderful book, a crime it was never translated in English - I believe - as it makes "Touching the Void" look like "Winnie The Pooh").
Great stuff, guys, keep it coming!
-Brian in SLC
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
|
Wee Jock, it's a pleasure to get to know you a bit here. Like your sensibility and humor. As a sort-of disciple of the Chouinard ice style, and after some years of helping him write Climbing Ice I'll try your questions.
Did YC ever make straight picked axes, or did he only get into the business of making ice gear once he'd worked out the advantages of a curved pick? In addition, I seem to remember that YC was very much an afficinado of the French style of climbing ice, and very good at it. Ironic that the technique he was in part responsible for developing should pretty much wipe out climbers' 'interest' in climbing ice in that way.
Never a straight pick axe. Not his style of repeat. Consider the Lost Arrow, his first product. Was it soft iron? No. John Salathe had pioneered hard steel pins for the Valley. An older wiser blacksmith, and an older, wizened climber. They were simply revolutionary, tough enough to hammer back out and take higher with you, which was the "clean" climbing of its day, leave no trace. (Except of course there was a stain, a tiny chip, and that became crucial later.) Salathe had gone off the deep end and was out in the Mojave eating grass and communing with his angels, so YC did us all a favor by forging his version of the LA and the big walls opened up. So his business got launched by a very esthetic and very functional commercializing of someone else's innovation.
A dozen years later Yvon came out with the first commercially available curved pick axe. Sorry, Piolet. The question of where that curve came from has only deepened on this thread. Won't revisit that. No question, though, that as a Tool Man he helped us onto the ice as handily as he had helped us get up Big Granite.
But he was not satisfied with facilitating the leap to piolet traction with his tools and his example. And this gets to the second part of your question.
For Chouinard it was all about the esthetics. The elegant way to approach a climbing problem. Finesse not force.
Sure, he commercialized the droop of the pick that made piolet traction hideously effective. But he could see that it would become brutally efficient as a way to attack the steepest ice, and he could probably even anticipate what you implied upthread, that it would come to the point where "Ice climbing only gets interesting when the ice disappears to less than an inch thick!!" That it makes all thick ice ultimately kind of trivial. Piolet traction was too good, in a way, at what it did.
You Scots lot and Jello carried the game off in the direction of the thin smear and the mixed beyond. What a ride!
Yvon looked to a more minimalist way to keep it sporty, to keep the spice in it. To keep the fun alive. And French Technique was exactly that. Of course there were excuses -- good ones -- like saving energy on thousand-meter walls of crunchy neve. But the fun of doing something hard and beautiful was peeking through right from the start.
Take this photo from Climbing Ice (Frost, of course -- talk about esthetics!) on the 'schrund wall of the V-Notch deep in October cold:
Anybody could piolet trax that, waltz right up and get on with it. But sheath your hammer there, boys, and follow me. Can I do this half-French stepping in pied toisieme? He seems to have coined the term, and maybe invented the technique itself. I don't know. Having viewed the rest of the history, it's an open question. But pushing it like that on such water ice (I was there, tasting it), downshifting his grip to piolet ancre and balancing on those points while he rocked it out of the ice, all the while without pro above a very nasty drop into the bergschrund...that is applied esthetics.
It gets worse. This is essentially the same ice, same venue, Frost shooting again:
But here Yvon is pushing it further, downshifting the footwork again to pied assis, the ultimate footfall of pure French Technique. Why? It's the game, pure esthetics. Can I push this elegant style of the old Alpine masters from the frozen snow where it was born onto frozen water where it's a stranger?
Pretty cool! About the height of his art. Doing the most climbing supported by the least tools. I mean, he could be on Eckenstein's crampons right there.
And after that public display, any climber's loss of interest in French Technique is pretty much just laziness and lack of vision.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
|
Great comments Doug. Couple of things came to mind when Gordon posed his questions.
Having recently returned to ice climbing, the newest gear has really brought Chouinard's ideas on ice full circle I think.
Here are a few reasons why. The modern ice/mixed boots are extremely soft in the ankle with a dead rigid sole. French technique is a given using these boots. Take a look at some of the video posted on the hard Cham ice routes and you see exactly what Chouinard, Frost and you were telling us would work 40 years ago. Some of them more akin to a Robbins boot than a good leather Haderer.
The newest hand tools allow you to run your hand up and down the shaft, matching or over lapping with complete security while the pick is buried or even easier just hooked. Even vertical and over hanging water ice these days can be "rock" solid and safe with good tools and the modern screws. Hard to find anything that is pure water ice that feels harder than a 5.10 hand crack these days. In fact from what I had done so far (in my second climbing life) the harder it gets the more like rock climbing it really is.
I haven't experienced this kind of freedom in the mountains since we all went out with just a good pair of boots and a piolet.
Even with what Ueli Steck is doing if you look close there are more things happening than first appear, all built on a foundation Chouinard, crew and the Scotts laid.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
|
Hello Doug:
>Anybody could piolet trax that, waltz right up and get on with it. But sheath your hammer there, boys, and follow me. Can I do this half-French stepping in pied toisieme? He seems to have coined the term, and maybe invented the technique itself. I don't know. Having viewed the rest of the history, it's an open question. But pushing it like that on such water ice (I was there, tasting it), downshifting his grip to piolet ancre and balancing on those points while he rocked it out of the ice, all the while without pro above a very nasty drop into the bergschrund...that is applied esthetics.
Precisely. That what was Bonatti said to my friend - doing the north face of Grand Pilier D'Angle step cutting is nasty, brutish work, doing it in piolet traction is just cheating (you can basically climb it anywhere). But doing it THAT way, the way of the great French pioneers of the 30's - the way the legendary Couloir Lagarde at the Droites was climbed in 1930, withouth pitons or any other protection, but more than any other route, the way Lagarde itself climbed in 1926 the couloir of the Breche du Caiman (in the Aiguilles du Chamonix), average steepness 65°, not a single ice piton used. This line was unrepeated for 35 years!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
|
Steve:
>Lucas - Having looked closely at the careers of many alpinists, do you consider Bonatti to be the greatest of his generation?
What would your short list look like?
Steve:
it’s undeniable Walter is the closest thing to a real “rock star” mountaineering has created in the last century. His ability to capture the imagination of the great public, and to inspire people to follow his path has not been replicated again (despite Messner). I was in Zermatt at the Alpine Club 150 year meeting in 2007, when Bonatti got the honorary membership, and when Walter stepped on the Riffelberg terrace at sunset to read a salute and open the meeting dinner, everyone there (and I mean, some of the best British climbers of the last 50 years were there!), everyone was all “ooooohhhh”, absolutely star-stuck. The scene was incredible – the sun setting down behind Matterhorn on the longest evening of the year, Bonatti reading his salute, and the absolute silence around. You could really touch the reverence he has inspired. It’s not the type of charisma anyone can produce, particularly in climbing.
This said, I believe he’s been the last giant of the past (I mean, the past in this case are the 30’s, and era that in climbing has produced many real giants), rather than the first new climber of (some) future. His greatest climbing merit was to have broken a lot of psychological taboos (particularly with the Dru solo), and to have injected a healthy dose of individualism into a climbing scene (the Italian one) who was dying of asphyxia because of the stranglehold imposed by CAI and the long shadow of those other “giants” of the 30s (Comici, Cassin, Gervasutti above all). But he was following their steps, not breaking out their trail. When the young Italian climbers of the following generation “rebelled” in the 70’s against the climbing establishment (the “Nuovo Mattino” - at it all began because somone read Doug Robison "The Climber as Visionary", of course!), they were rebelling against Bonatti too.
If for “his generation” you mean climbers born between 1930 and 1938, my list probably would be:
Walter Bonatti (for the reasons mentioned above)
Georges Livanos (because of his intelligence and sense of irony, and because he was really the initiator, at least from a cultural point of view, of “modern” climbing in Europe)
Renč Desmaison (because in many ways he took Bonatti experience one step beyond – for instance the winter ascent to the Freney Pillar was an astonishing exploit - , and because he was one of the coolest guys on Earth!)
Royal Robbins (because I believe that when he took the Yosemite practices in Europe he gave worldwide climbing a technical and cultural “jump forward” that I believe the sport hadn’t experienced since the late 30’s.)
Joe Brown and Don Whillans (because they were in many ways real Bonattis, but without all the Nietzchean/Lammerian trappings of "vintage" Bonatti)
Gary Hemming (because he had an influence on my generation that greatly exceeded his actual contribution to climbing. At some point, we all wanted to be like him, even if we didn't really know a thing about him)
Boris Korshunov (because he's the closest thing to a real superman I've ever know, and because he represent all climbers - not only Russian - of that age who did incredible things - and no one knew/knows)
Two additional points:
1) The list above is limited to Bonatti's generation. But before and after there were people who - my humble opinion - did thing even more visionary and interesting. For instance (just to remain in Italy), Giusto Gervasutti, the most elegant rock climber of the 30's. Its route on the East Face of the Jorasses remained the most difficult and beautiful rock climb in the Western Alps until Robbins and Harlin opened the American Direct at the Dru.
2) We're speaking of giants here, famous climbers. But - again, my opinion here - I believe there's been many lesser know names who're as interesting to know and study. I'm particularly interested in extremes - "nice" people like Francesco Ravelli, who climbed for 70 years harder than anyone else, opening dozen of routes (like the Hirondelles ridge, or the Innominata), ran a succesful business, a happy and large family, fought in WWI, died 100 years old, never had an accident, and had always a lot of fun. Or, on the other hand, iconoclasts - for instance Warren Harding (finding a copy of "Downward Bound" was a huge satisfaction for me), or Ivano Ghirardini (occultist, programmer, climbing pants designer, enemy of Chamonix, and the man who has deliberately soloed the Croz spur and the Shroud in a storm - to see what it was like.)
The list is huge!
:)
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
|
Gordon:
> Was Vaucher a bit of a 'prima donna' type? The stories from the Dyrenfurth Everest exped were not too complementary about him and his wife.
I don't know really, but I think that in any case it's quite easy to argue with Walter - the recently departed Luciano Ghigo (who climbed the East face of Capucin) was one of the few person who always got along with him, even after they stopped to climb together. Another was Carlo Mauri.
> BTW have you ever tried to get Black Nick's story about his ascent of the Amitie with RBJ? I'd really like to hear that one!! I bet they had an absolute epic, nutting their way up steep, crappy rock for 5 days (though of course they would be stiff upper lipped about it)!!
As you know I'm starting "that other project", but in any case I'm looking forward to contact Colton. Of course there's the MacIntyre to discuss, but deep down I'm more curious about L'Amitič, the main reason being that it's a route whose quality (rock, beauty etc) seem to be impossible to decide. Half of the people who climbed it think it was absolute and total crap, the other half think it's the best big wall of the Alps! I'll keep you informed.
There's a picture of a certain wall going your way...
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
|
Regarding the first curved pick on an ice axe, the earliest photo I've seen that clearly shows one in action dates to around the mid-30s in Germany. It had significantly more droop than a Chouinard and a relatively short shaft (maybe 60 cm). Perhaps a one-of-a-kind but somebody was way ahead of their time.
FWIW Bonatti was a great climber but gives a terrible slide show. Desmaison gave one of the most thrilling shows due to the incredible imagery.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
|
Thanks for the nuanced response Luca! A couple of the other names that you mention are unfamiliar to me. I hope that your upcoming book goes into the kind of amazing detail that your posts do.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 12:00am PT
|
Hi DR - you come from Santa Cruz? Wish I'd known you when I lived in Boulder Creek!! Mind you I was into running and swimming in those days (late 80's - mid 90's) rather than climbing ...
Luca - Nick Colton is the nicest of chaps - nowadays!! In the Biolay days he was 'Black Nick, Hooligan in Chief, leader of the Biolay Boot Boys'!! I always wonder why the MacIntyre-Colton is always so referred, or 'the MacIntyre Route' - surely it should be the Colton-MacIntyre (Alphabetically)?? It would be understandable if Black Nick was just a mobile belay that Dirty Alex took up the route - but Black Nick was a hell of a climber, in those early days (technically much more advanced than Alex on rock and his equal on ice, IMO). I believe Nick is again showing the world what us old farts had it in us to do, even now!!
A story about the Colton-MacIntyre - or about before it so became. Alex and I went up to do it a couple of weeks before Alex and Nick actually did it .... we got to the top of the ice-field, just below the goulottes, when an afternoon storm broke (we were going to climb most of the route at night - it was summer, you see) and all hell broke loose - bolts of lightning, peals of thunder, hail and snow, rocks flying about everywhere!! I got scared so down we went. Suddenly, as we were clinging to an 'ilot' of rock on the way back down, there was an enormous flash, a mega-crash of thunder, and a bunch of rocks rolling over us all at the same time. Like something out of Gotterdamerung but for real! I had already been hit by several rocks - which was why I was so scared. I also discovered i that flash of lightning why I always seemed to be the one getting hit - Alex never seemed to get touched .... he was hanging right underneath me - the dirty rat!! Rather ironic, given the way he was later to die! It must have been the only rock that ever hit him!! I didn't get to go back with Alex as I was broke and had to return to Switzerland to work. Oh well! It was a great coup for Dirty Alex and Black Nick!
Just curious - Did Jello and folk like Duncan Ferguson - a couple of the original ultra-hard ice-men from the US - ever take to French Technique? I used to use it quite a lot on less steep ice - saved the legs quite a bit, but it was a bit counter-intuitive. The toes had to face more and more downhill the steeper the ice, so that eventually on the steepest you could go you were reversing up the slope like a truck with its beepers going! I was never elegant like Mons. Chouinard. More like a sack of tatties backing up a hill!!
Another point for Luca - Do you think that people equate difficulty too much with quality ... the Amitie may be a bunch of incredibly steep crap and very hard to climb - which make it great sport to some (extremely masochistic) folk??
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
|
Luca,
Desmaison was paid by the day when he completed the Desmaison/Gousseault, so he might have been deliberately taking his time?! Incredible! I do understand that the Gousseaut was establihsed using the prevailing techniques of the day, but what you are describing with regards to the media circus surrounding the Gousseault exactly supports my point: the contrast in the style of Tobin and Gordon’s ascent with Desmaison’s is illustrative that the “Scala di Seta”, as it has recently been named by Gordon, was a landmark ascent in its audacity and minimalist ethic.
Desmaison spent 14 days (342 hours divided by 24) on route --being paid handsomely by the day---with the spotlight of French media on him every step of the way. A few years later, Tobin (who was 21 years old at the time) and Gordon pack up some ratty, thin ropes, a bag of dried soup mix, and a handful of pins and screws and quietly establish a new direct line in a little over 48 hours. In contrast to Desmaison’s lucratively-sponsored circumstances, Tobin didn’t even have a tent to call his own in Chamonix that summer, as was related by Rob Muir on ST in another thread. Rob and his wife-to-be Candy returned from a trip to Italy that summer to find Tobin making himself at home in their tent at Snell Field. They had to evict the poor lad!
Just imagining Tobin taking repeated, lengthy leader falls on that icy buttress as Gordon describes, like it was some bolt protected slab at sunny Suicide, makes my palms sweat.
I am not denigrating Desmaison at all; he is a giant. But the more one understands the epic story of the first ascent of the Gousseault, the more one can only shake one’s head in admiration for what Gordon and Tobin accomplished.
Rick
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
|
Rick:
>Desmaison was paid by the day when he completed the Desmaison/Gousseault, so he might have been deliberately taking his time?! Incredible! I do understand that the Gousseaut was established using the prevailing techniques of the day, but what you are describing with regards to the media circus surrounding the Gousseault exactly supports my point
I'm afraid I've been creating some huge misunderstanding here, so I'll rephrase it in order to clear my thinking on the whole thing - as the LAST thing I want is to give the impression that Desmaison and Gousseault were the culprits (and not, as it really was, the victims) of the 1971 mess.
While the rescue was underway, and immediately after, Desmaison was accused, with the support of some part of the press, (with the usual mix of direct accusations and insinuations)
1) to have deliberately slowed down the climb and delayed the request for rescue in order to create a greater media interest around the climb
2) to have underestimated the difficult of the climb and Serge Gousseault less than ideal physical conditions (and lack of direct winter experience) in order to "bag it" before someone else could claim the line.
It's true that the first ascent of Linceuil in 1968 had lasted so much PARTLY because Flematti and Desmaison had accepted to haul up a transmission device over the mountain in order to make daily radio contact "live" from the climb. And it's true that Desmaison (as every jet set climber of that age, including Bonington, Bonatti, Mauri, you name it) had press sponsorship who were paid "per day" - the longer the climb, the more money one it got.
However (and I want to stress the "however"!) Desmaison replied, and, in my opinion, reasonably demonstrated that
1) If Gousseault illness and the bad organization of the rescue had not intervened, the climb would have been completed in no more than 7 to 9 days, which was perfectly in line with the tecniques of the age and the type of climb;
2) He had not underestimated the ascent (as the material he had was in line with its seriousness)
3) He had no idea Gousseault had some health trouble - probably due to an undetected metabolic disease.
Most importantly: if rescue had not been botched to such a monumental extent, and - according to some - had not DELIBERATELY botched in order to "teach a lesson" to Desmaison (because of some problem he had in the past with the Chamonix establishment), Gousseault would have survived.
It's very important to note that the 1973 ascent (who was done under meteo conditions even worse than 1971) lasted 9 days. One year before, Chris Bonington, Mick Burke and Dougal Haston had spent 22 days trying to climb the Central Couloir (and they ultimately didn't summit). And the Japanese spent, the same winter TWO MONTHS besieging the deeper gullies of the same Central Couloir, and they definitely had no "pay for climb" sponsorship
>Desmaison spent 14 days (342 hours divided by 24) on route --being paid handsomely by the day---with the spotlight of French media on him every step of the way.
That's not exactly the right way to describe his ordeal. He spent 14 days on the wall seeing his partner slowly descending into illness, then madness, then death, waiting for a rescue that didn't materialize until the 11th hours (and probably just because of a lucky turn of events), when he was himself few hours away from death for kidney failure. And afterwards had to endure months of insinuations, accuses, a huge sense of failure and guilt over Serge's death. Media spotligh in that was was - to make un understatement - a mixed blessing.
I've a picture of him few minute after having been hauled up the summit - he looks like someone who has been freshly dug from premature burial.
>A few years later, Tobin (who was 21 years old at the time) and Gordon pack up some ratty, thin ropes, a bag of dried soup mix, and a handful of pins and screws and quietly establish a new direct line in a little over 48 hours. In contrast to Desmaison’s lucratively-sponsored circumstances, Tobin didn’t even have a tent to call his own in Chamonix that summer, as was related by Rob Muir on ST in another thread. Rob and his wife-to-be Candy returned from a trip to Italy that summer to find Tobin making himself at home in their tent at Snell Field. They had to evict the poor lad!
I've no doubt that what Tobin, Gordon and the rest of the Snell's Field crew did was great, and and I've no doubt that they changed the sport forever, and I've no doubt that they (and the young climber who were operating at the same time on the opposite side of the Alps, and who had similar motivations and similar lack of money!) changed climbing in the right direction, saving the activity (in continental Europe) from a decade of stagnation, that wasn't doing anyone a favour (and to be honest, one of the people who was screaming out loud against that malaise was Desmaison!)
But there's no point making comparisons between "Scala di Seta" (an astonishing, visionary, ahead of its time route) and the Gousseault (another astonishing, visionary, and ahead of its time route), as they were simply different, non-comparable items, climbed with very different tecniques and, even, if just 4 years had passed, in a completely different age. Insisting that there's some kind of ethical superiority in the latter compared with the formed is greatly missing the point.
You can rightly do that ethical comparison between "Scala di Seta" and the Directe de L'Amitie, or with the Harlin at the Eiger, or with the Saxon Direttissima at the Cima Grande di Lavaredo, or with any other relic of the siege style era (even if I'm convinced that any climb is just the results of its age - what will people thing 20 year on from now of Ueli Steck?). But you can't do an ethical comparison between "Scala di Seta" and the Gousseault - that's simply not the case.
Hope to have stated my point with a bit more clarity this time.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
>Another point for Luca - Do you think that people equate difficulty too much with quality ... the Amitie may be a bunch of incredibly steep crap and very hard to climb - which make it great sport to some (extremely masochistic) folk??
Unfortunately yes, these days the equation is pretty much "great rock, great climb". Which of course (my opinion) misses half of the point, as the reality is that this mythical "great rock" is not that easy to find, even on Mt. Blanc. And by the way, what's really "great rock"?
Some people seems now to accept only ultracompact rock as it's considered more "climbable", I believe it's another part of the sport climbing era fallout. But the irony is that most of the great classics everyone says they love, don't have that "great rock". As for Mont Blanc, there are only two places where you can find that special granite everyone talks about:
Grand Capucin
http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/349770.jpg
and Tour Des Jorasses
http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/340443.jpg
(this is one of my pics)
Everywhere else in the area the rock is not as solid as in those two places. But this doesn't mean climbs aren't great!!
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
|
Luca: I think Desmaison has been very much misunderstood!! I've no doubt at all that the problems between him and the Cham establishment are responsible for this (as well as the rescue scandal on the Goussault). I stand with you on the issue that Desmaison was climbing in a visionary way ... From you I get the understanding that the original attempt was a very 'pure' attempt, particularly with the techniques and ethics of the time, and for that (if nothing else) Desmaison should be revered instead of denigrated. Even the 1973 success was in relatively good style when compared to the Amitie and Harlin circuses. The Bonington/Haston attempt on the Walker was, in my opinion, rather in the same vein as those other media circuses. Dunno anything about the Japanese route. But it is important to recognise that for Desmaison it must have been hard to go against the grain!!
Rick: Be honest ... you are 'sensationalising' Tobin to a certain extent. What you said in your last post makes me cringe - and I know pretty damn well that it would have made Tobin cringe also!! Tobin, you, Steve Shea and Jack Roberts, Kingy, Dirty Alex, the two Nicks, me (though I was different, I was the king of scruffy) etc etc (including all the young scruffs on the other side of Mont Blanc that Luca alludes to) we were all just ordinary chaps in our milieu and the climbs we did were really 'just ordinary, non-visionary' climbs in the style that we all espoused.... WE didn't think we were going out to do anything special!! Any notability has come only after the fact (30 years after the fact), and as a reaction to the hype of the circuses you are contrasting us with, and perhaps with the hype of modern, 'professional' climbing also. Tobin and I did not have a 'minimalist' approach - we just had minimal gear!! If we had had more, we would have taken more!! If someone would have given us money to climb, we would have taken it - and bought some more food!!(it's why I (and Dirty Alex and Joe Tasker etc etc) worked at ISM after all - easy money to go climbing).
Luca: I saw 'Mort d'un Guide' in Chamonix - must have been in 1976?? - was a lot of it filmed on the south face of the Midi??
Just think, YC and his curved pick ice axe have created an explosion in ice climbing and alpinism .... how many of us would have hacked our way up the Bonatti-Gobbi in the old style (or even Point Five, for that matter)?? They have also created an environmental problem - particularly in Scotland. Too many punters on the hill scratching up the rocks!! The hills are alive with the sounds of scratch, scratch, scratching!!
Anyway, I think that we are getting hung up with personality issues, referencing the Goussault too much, when what is more interesting in this thread is the evolution of techniques, equipment and ethics, with reference to the MANY ice and alpine climbs that posters have personal knowledge of.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
|
Gordon,
Cringe all you want; you are too modest. Sure, Tobin was my friend and that makes me biased. But what prompted me to want to write about Tobin’s 1977 season was an email I received last year from a writer for the French magazine La Montagne who asked me for a picture of Tobin to use in an article entitled, “ Desmaison/Gousseault, Chronique d’un Voie Mythique”. That article was accompanied by individual photos of every climber who was involved in each of the ten known ascents of the route to date, including yours. So even some other, more objective observers have a high opinion of the route’s significance. At least I didn't call the route "mythical!"
Sensationalized? I’ll just note that you had a similar response up thread when Luca had high praise for your climb, and Luca is clearly an expert. I’ll let others be the judge of whether I exaggerate. You are not exactly an objective party, yourself, mate!
Rick
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
|
Blooming heck, that was a quick response, Rick. Look, Tobin was a great climber and his boldness on that prow pitch was impressive (and I'm telling you he is more fit material for a full biography than others I have come across in the climbing world (hint, hint) but don't turn him into a comic superhero). And the Goussault is a great climb. Desmaison was a great climber. I figure the line Tobin and I followed turned out to be quality route. Blah, blah, blah. But we did not deliberately go out to climb following a special 'minimalist' approach that was pure etc etc. We didn't even go out to better Desmaison and do his route in an out of the ordinary style. We certainly didn't go out to climb a new route! We were just climbing within the standard ethics and techniques of our day and group (which included YOU - look at the Dru Couloir route you did and the style you did it in - and Luca's 'other side of MB' scruffies!!). Desmaison DID try to do something out of the ordinary, and in a sense minimalist, for his time and culture. And when it didn't quite work he got nailed for it!! He WAS visionary!!
Don't be fooled by Black Nicks comment that 'we had these three climbs listed that the previous generation had f*cked up and that we were going to go out and do them properly' ... It wasn't quite like that - I just had this obsession with the Desmaison from reading an article about the epic in Paris Match as a school boy, we wanted to do the Amite because it sounded hard, and we wanted to do the Harlin because it was famous. And we wanted to snag the first 'Alpine Style' ascents of the three (Were Harding, Chouinard, Pratt and Robbins less visionary because their walls are being freed now?). It seems, also, that the Desmaison wasn't really a sieged circus like the others - if Goussault hadn't collapsed the climb would just have been a straight visionary climb that prefigured our generation!
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 02:21am PT
|
Hmmm... I would guess that we Yanks were blessed with a certain distance from the Alps and the rivalry that existed between the Brits and the French. Until the mid to late 1970s the two climbing cultures had little in common. With Brits and French using Chamonix as a proving ground, the competition for routes must have been intense. By the mid-1970s the alpine climbing styles were more similar though the Brits seem to have been more prolific.
Unencumbered by the history the Brits had with Chamonix, when we came over we did what looked reasonable compared to what we had been doing back in the States. The skills we had gained in various parts of the States were enough to get some Yanks up some very fine routes. Sharing the same language and having a similar climbing philosophy with the Brits helped some of us in our introductions to Chamonix. Wee Jock and his friends showed to me that normal (only slightly crazed) people could climb extraordinary routes. The concern that Wee Jock showed when Jack Hunt and I were two days late returning from a climb is something I still remember.
Having climbed with Tobin only once I will add that he was great fun to climb with and he had an exceptional sense of optimism that was infectious. Isn't the shared sense of optimism what alpine climbing success is based on?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 11:00am PT
|
As we have strayed momentarily back into classical flatfooting, was anyone better than Armand Charlet? A brief look from Mountain 50 July-August 76.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
|
>As we have strayed momentarily back into classical flatfooting, >was anyone better than Armand Charlet? A brief look from Mountain >50 July-August 76.
Not many. He invented the tecnique as we know it, and (besides doing a billions of great climbs in a time many current "athletes" would only dream of), he did what no one else could try in the 20s and 30s - twice attempt - without pitons - the NF of the Jorasses following the most direct and elegant route - in 1935!.
He was a real god of climbing in its age, with a special status among its peers. Here's what - again in 1935 - Renato Chabod (Gervasutti's best friend and longest climbing partner - he climbed with him the Croz spur in 1935, few hours after the first climb) wrote:
"I've spoken of "idols", and now I'll have to explain myself. I had two "idols": the north face of Grandes Jorasses, and Armand Charlet. I tried to climb the wall, and I thought it was climbable. But I was still afraid of it. I considered it something devilish, different than any other mountain wall, as if some there was some witchery behind its charm. Do you remember Christian Almer answer to Edward Whymper, when Whymper asked him to participate to the Matterhorn race? "Anything you ask, mon cher monsieur - but not Matterhorn - anything you want..."
Now, don't want to put myself at the same level of the great Almer. But my idea of the NF of the Jorasses was the same he had about Matterhorn. With one difference - crucial: he didn't even try, while I did. Do not take this comparison as sacrilegious: but that's like someone thinking he deals with an "impossible" girl, and waste a lot of time on stupid tricks to get to know her, but she's actually just waiting for the first "real" attack, and in the end will concede herself to the some resolute passer-by...
My second idol was Armand Charlet. I wasn't afraid to get in competition with him - but he was for me of god of sort, which couldn't be beaten on "his" Jorasses... I was tormented by doubt, under the influence of the "god" Charlet. I did believe so much to my idols, that I ended up making their evil influence felt to my friend Gervasutti..."
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
|
Rick
>Sensationalized? I’ll just note that you had a similar response up thread when Luca had high praise for your climb, and Luca is clearly an expert. I’ll let others be the judge of whether I exaggerate. You are not exactly an objective party, yourself, mate!
Well, unfortunately I'm not an expert - I'm a climbing history enthusiast, and to be honest, I would probably exchange all my nerdy knowledge for a bit of your climbing curriculum - I mean, the first ascents!
This said - I think that a point that was probably lost in my posting was that Tobin and Gordon did something very, very special because they didn't limit themselves to repeating a great route in great style - they created a great new line out of nowhere.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
|
Wonderfully considered response, Luca.
Was Charlet directly involved in the development of superior pick shape and character to allow his single axe technique to evolve? His name still persists as Charlet-Moser if I am not in error by attribution and I am curious if he had direct commercial involvement during his career?
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
|
Gordon:
> I think Desmaison has been very much misunderstood!!
True, he was really doing his own thing when no one else was, organizing the Dru rescue in 1966, getting to be a good friend with Gary Hemmings and Mick Burke, making somehow politicized statements in the 60's, being friendly with you climbers - that was something a lot of members of the local establishment wouldn't like.
>Luca: I saw 'Mort d'un Guide' in Chamonix - must have been in 1976?? - was a lot of it filmed on the south face of the Midi??
Yes, standing for the West face of the Drus, who it turn stood for the NF of the Jorasses (oh my).
The legend says that in Trento Mountain Movie Festival on 1976, when "Mort D'Une Guide" won the first prize, Rebuffat stormed out the theatre screaming "C'est ignoble!!!!" because of the subject matter.
>how many of us would have hacked our way up the Bonatti-Gobbi
Not many Gordon, but this wasn't the point. According to Giancarlo (Grassi), all the new tools point was to go WAY beyond what Bonatti had done!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
|
>Was Charlet directly involved in the development of superior pick shape and character to allow his single axe technique to evolve? His name still persists as Charlet-Moser if I am not in error by attribution and I am curious if he had direct commercial involvement during his career?
"Charlet" (and Bettembourg) are well known families in Argentier with plenty of ties. But Armand (who died in 1970) had not influence om the development of the curved pick. What I'm being told is that "Charlet Moser" got directly influence by Chouinard, who convinced them try the 55 cm shaft, curved pick axe.
Just for the record - Grivel (who invented 10 points crampons in 1909 together with Oscar Eckstein, and, on their own 12 point crampons in 1929) did develop a line of modular (interchangeable) picks few years later as a completely independent design. This said, the idea of a curved pick came first from outside continental Europe - I believe that was YC idea first.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
|
Gordon:
>Don't be fooled by Black Nicks comment that 'we had these three climbs listed that the previous generation had f*cked up and that we were going to go out and do them properly' ... It wasn't quite like that - I just had this obsession with the Desmaison from reading an article about the epic in Paris Match as a school boy, we wanted to do the Amite because it sounded hard, and we wanted to do the Harlin because it was famous. And we wanted to snag the first 'Alpine Style' ascents of the three (Were Harding, Chouinard, Pratt and Robbins less visionary because their walls are being freed now?)
Very interesting point Gordon. And as I'm a curious fellow (you may have noticed this), I did a search on my own database (computers make everything sooooo easy these days!) of notable 2nd and 3rd ascents of classic line made by Brit climbers during the 70's.
Results (which I'll post tomorrow - too tired now!) quite interesting, as it looks like:
1) You were quite discriminating in your climbing choices
2) You were more interested in "cool" lines rather than in famous ones
3) You were actually reading guidebooks
and
4) You did spent a lot of time on MY side of Mont Blanc (Italian) as over 17 climbs I've "extracted" from my DB, only 4 were done on the French/Chamonix side (but on the other hand, new routes seems to have been climbed more often there)
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
|
Luca said "the idea of a curved pick came first from outside continental Europe - I believe that was YC idea first."
He indeed popularized it but the first was in use in Germany three decades earlier. At best, YC reinvented an old idea.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
|
Can you produce a photo of any of these old ideas, ANF?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
|
Luca: Perhaps what might be abstracted from what Bonatti said is that if a route is first climbed cutting steps then the only 'true' way of repeating the route is also to cut steps ... front pointing up the Bonatti-Gobbi (or the Shroud, or the Triolet etc etc) is not really repeating the route that Bonatti and Gobbi did - you get no idea of the true difficulty of the first ascent. Personally I regret never doing routes like Point Five and (even more) Orion Direct in Scotland cutting steps - I cannot really appreciate the skill, tenacity, courage to have done those routes in that style! Front Pointing has reduced those routes to 'an afternoon cup of tea with granny'! So what if other, later, routes require front pointing - those routes (obviously) do not!
Another point: Tobin and I NEVER WENT OUT TO DO A NEW ROUTE ON THE WALKER ... That was an accident of not having more of a route description than "the direct route up the NE face of the Point Walker". We followed that (paltry) description, where Desmaison followed the most dramatic line of the face but one that had little relationship to that description! Motivations are being ascribed to us (by you and Rick) that we never had!! The only important thing about the line that Tobin and I did is that you CAN follow your nose up that face towards the summit and you WILL FIND a slender but definite and complete line across the ramps!! Irrespective of any difficulties there may or may not be on the route it is, therefore, a really good mountaineering route! And you don't need a ton of gear to do it - no compressors, bolts, cams, abalakovs, hooks, ice-spurs, specialty ice-axes and ice-hammers beyond the sort of stuff Chouinard and MacInnes gave us at the start of the 70's and ordinary crampons! Having a friend like Tobin is useful, though!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 01:37am PT
|
True alpinism has never been about gear. Alpinism has always been the man behind the idea, his imagination, determination and willingness to suffer.
The best could always do with a any old club with a nail through it and something to help your boots claw up the snow and ice. We've all known them. They are a bright spot in any climbing career,
Bring along a rope gun like Cassin, Bonatti, Lowe, Robbins, Buhl, Sorenson, Blanchard, Twight or any of the dozens of others and you have a fair chance of getting up something, then or now.
If they stay alive and in the sport, the best look for like souls with the strength and brashness of youth and willingly follow them along or help them along to an even brighter and wider imagination.
"Charlet" (and Bettembourg) are well known families in Argentier with plenty of ties. But Armand (who died in 1970) had not influence om the development of the curved pick. What I'm being told is that "Charlet Moser" got directly influence by Chouinard, who convinced them try the 55 cm shaft, curved pick axe.
Just for the record - Grivel (who invented 10 points crampons in 1090 toghether with Oscar Eckstein, and, on their own 12 point crampons in 1929) did develop a line of modular (interchangeable) picks few years later as a completely independent design. This said, the idea of a curved pick came first from outside continental Europe - I believe that was YC idea first.
I have no doubt YC was the first to have commercial success with a curved pick. I too have seen an early northwall hammer with a curved pick and iirc a short axe as well. Still looking for that reference. YC admits himself that he used a number of axes to incorporate what worked into his own design. I also find it interesting that it was Charlet that made the first piolet for YC but Camp ended up producing the Chouinard axes. Must be a story behind that?! I've also cited one reference, Micheal Chessler @ Chessler books, "Chouinard copied the steep drooping pick of European hand made axes, that planted firmly in hard ice or Neve, and made balance and esthetics primary."
I have yet to verify that info but it is not the first I have heard it. My take is the "real" inventors of what we now know as ice/mixed climbing are the Scotts, Jeff Lowe and hooking tools. The guy that made it possible...through his writings, advertising and equipment sales was YC.
Obviously no one took real advantage of the tools if custom axes were available. When you see what was used for tools/crampons/boots on the first really hard alpine ice climbs.....it might well make you shake your head in wonder today.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 03:41am PT
|
Bloomin' 'eck Dane, 10 point crampons were invented just a few years after the battle of Hastings when Norman Willie did for old 'arold in the eyeball???? Perhaps we can see the design in the Bayeux Tapestry?? Did they have Chouinard Piolets in those days as well? I reckon the Black Prince (not Edward the Confessor - he came before Harold) was the first person to climb the north face of the Grandes Jorasses - Froissart was probably standing in for Luca as the recording journalist. I'll have to check his journals to see if there is a mention!!
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 08:50am PT
|
Yep, and the curved pick was the secret weapon for penetrating armor!
Here's the relevant passage from Climbing Ice:
"On a rainy summer day in 1966, I went onto a glacier in the Alps with the purpose of testing every different kind of ice axe available at the time. My plan was to see which one worked best for piolet ancre, which one was better for step-cutting, and why. After I found a few answers, it took the intervention of Donald Snell to convince the very reluctant and conservative Charlet factory to make a 55-centimeter axe with a curved pick for the crazy American. In those days a 55-centimeter axe was crazy enough, but a curved pick! I had the feeling that modifying the standard straight pick into a curve compatible with the arc of the axe's swing would allow the pick to stay put better in the ice. I had noticed that a standard pick would often pop out when I put my weight on it. My idea worked..."
page 27-28
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:39am PT
|
Ok, ok, I didn't make my point very well :) BITD some pretty hard stuff had been done by chopping steps and water ice was generally avoided where possible. But we avoid water ice now on long alpine routes and look for the squeeky snice. We look for perfect conditions...like on the McIntyre/Colton recently?
Alpine climbing has always been about conditions not the tools used. From what I have read of accounts on the your and Tobin's climb, I suspect you felt better armed than Tobin with his curved gear and you with Terros. Flexi crampons all? Correct me if that is a misunderstanding.
Didn't much matter, what you had or didn't have as you obviously brought enough in retrospect. A couple of young heady lads, with more skill than they might have imagined and a distinct lack of gear that one might have expected "a professional" to have available for such and undertaking.
Imagination, determination and a willingness to suffer is what sets the great climbers apart from good climbers. More than a few of those posting on this thread, even if they don't care to admit it in public. History makes those judgements not the players.
YC had the imagination to "reinvent" the ice tool. Doesn't matter if there were similar tools around before him. If they were available, as some of us think, they never fulfilled their potential. It took guys like DR, YC and their buddies at home and abroad to take full advantage of the tools and more importantly to write about the tools and techniques in the popular press.
Jello and Mike Weiss skipped the alpine hammer phase and took the 70cm piolets up Bridalveil for chrimney sake! And that isn't even giving Greg Lowe credit for his avantgarde climbs.
How about the eclectic set up of gear that made the 1st ascent of Ames Ice Hose? On different pitches after a game of rock/paper/scissors it was a leashless 70cm piolet/rooster head, a set of humingbirds and a set of Terros.
In Canada it was just as bad. Bugs came up with the idea of aiders on Terros. But that was quickly dismissed and not "quite" right even there. Things changed really fast in the '70s with ice climbing. All the good ice climbing areas were involved to some degree.
Having been lucky enough to have climbed through the '70s and now once again out happily hooking away, I get to have a unique perspective.
Many here have an even broader perspective, Jack Roberts comes to mind and some of the obvious lurkers on this thread. But anyone who started climbing real ice with a piolet and an alpine hammer will know where I am coming from.
Stuff we use to grade as VI (and I heard a few Canadian's in the early '80s claim there was nothing harder than 4 on thick ice) is now a 5 and maybe even a lowly 4. The down grades are tool specific imo. I saw it coming on the 2nd ascent of Slipstream. Bonatti saw it 20 years earlier.
Bonatti said it wasn't the same climb without chopping steps and he is right. Take any grade 5 ice today and it isn't the same climb with leashless Nomics, super fast placing screws, lwt weight, high tech boots and soft shell stretchy clothing with garden weight gloves. If you know how to use all of them to your advantage it is much, much easier and safer as well.
I think that is a good thing. Proper respect is due IMO for all those that came before us (climbers today) and did at least as much, and some times a good deal more, with less.
"Tobin's season" with all the players involved is a classic example of "more with less".
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
|
"Can you produce a photo of any of these old ideas, ANF?"
Contact Gary Neptune. He has the photo. IIRC it's a screen grab from a pre-WWII German climbing film that clearly shows a short shaft with a curved pick.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
|
Thank you No Flatlander. Sharp eye, good memory.
Any Boulder locals who could help us nail this down?
Tarbuster?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
|
As far as - no thick ice is harder than 4 - Jimmy Marshall, the famous Scottish winter climber would have agreed with this, with respect to front-pointing. There is an article in Outside mag where a couple of Americans interview him and he talks of 'his granny would be able to do anything, front-pointing'.
DR - I did a fair bit of climbing with a Chouinard axe and little Salewa ice hammer (all metal, curved T section pick) in my first year of winter climbing and reckon that pretty much anything on thick ice can be climbed using them! I did things like Chancer, Smiths Route, Point Five, Zero and Orion direct with them. On mixed ground neither of us used our gear on rock - we used our hands! On very thin (smears and plates of) ice Terrors were definitely an advantage. In soft snow (the cornice) the terror axe was brilliant!. My last season (1979) I used a prototype Chacal and a Simond Mustang curved pick axe. The Chacal had an advantage on thick water ice over the terror, but I climbed mixed ground quite happily with the Mustang!
A good carpenter does not blame his tools!! The adze on the Terror axe WAS a secret weapon, however!!
We both had Salewa Adjustable crampons which seemed just great to me.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
|
I posted this Jimmy Marshall shot upthread already but ever tire of it. Negotiating Parallel B gully.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
|
Thanks for re-posting Steve. You're right, there's something so archetypal about that shot. I too never tire of it, and never tire of several other of the Scottish images that have gotten onto this thread.
There's something fine and innocently refreshing about simply tackling with gusto the medium that happens to be right in front of you. The Scots were --still are -- blessed with their rimed-up medium. They attacked it with glee when the world wasn't watching. They made tools especially good for it. Like Wee Jock just said again, "The adze on the Terror axe WAS a secret weapon, however!!" And it was also just a local guy hammering out in his little shop something peculiarly good for where he was. And other local guys without even shops, bent over Primus stoves recurving their picks.
I found the same in the Palisades. Just a kid who couldn't wait to come to grips with what was right in front of me. Happened to be mostly granite, but when it was snow and ice too, there was Don Jensen with his Terror hammer. And then along came YC. He had been around more, picked things up. But he too was just a guy with a good forge and a healthy enthusiasm for "forging" onto the medium we found there, which happened to be flinty-hard water ice.
That's what I get out of "Tobin's Season" too. Head up the Shroud because they could. See with their own eyes ice cutting through overlaps to the summit ridge and just go climb it.
Fun, fun, fun.
History comes later, putting it all in context, and I gotta say I'm proud of the strides this group right here have collectively made toward putting the pieces together into a jigsaw that makes a surprising lot of sense, a lucid story of where we've been.
Carry on!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
|
East Side Underground mentioned up thread that the Charmoz had been skied. The subject of the inevitable downgrading of one generation’s ”Last Great Problem” in a few years to an “ Easy Day for a Lady” was covered long ago in a seminal article whose author I forget, but Steve probably remembers. I am more awed by those climbers who chopped, in Luca's words, nasty, brutish (and short?) steps up the Charmoz in the days before front points than modern glisse descents. The cloud of mystery that obscured the peaks then was as forbidding to climbers back in the days before instant information as the technical difficulties.
The fact that the skill and courage of modern climbers or glisse practicioners is almost unfathomable does not detract in the least from my appreciation of the challenges faced by a Brown, Bonatti, a Robbins, a Chouinard, a Whymper, or on the glisse side, a Vallencant or Saudan.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
|
Willo Welzenbach's spirit floats around the Charmoz too.
An old photo that I came across in a junk shop looking up that way about a hundred years ago.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
|
Re: Grivel 10-points invented in 1090!
Dane & WeeJock: I did some quick research on Lucasignorelli’s post that included the fact that Grivel invented crampons in 1090:
Lucasignorelli on Feb 19: “Just for the record - Grivel (who invented 10 points crampons in 1090 together with Oscar Eckstein”
It was a typo. Lucasignorelli has been slaving over his history links late at night.
From Grivel’s fine website is the following link: showing that modern 10 points were invented in 1908-09.
http://www.grivel.com/Storia/Storia_Det.asp?Cat=R
Here is some of the Grivel copy on the process.
The whirlwind Oscar Eckenstein (1859 - 1921) broke into this rather quiet environment in the early 20th century.. An engineer, brilliant mountaineer, argumentative and a loner, he published two articles in the Ostereich Alpenzeitung, on the 20th. July 1908 and the 5th. June 1909, detailing the results of his research on the manufacture of crampons, their systematic use and the incredible feats they could perform. In fig.9 illustrates his designs. Eckenstein’s real innovation and its importance doesn’t just lie in the technical perfection of the crampons but rather in the spirit of courage and innovation with which he defined their use..... his major contribution has been that of a moral nature. This ultimately consists in the faith that mountaineers laid in his inventions: nobody dared before him, but afterwards everybody trusted crampons. (Manual d’Alpinisme du C.A.F. 1934)
Our hero bought his plans to the blacksmith at Courmayeur, Henry Grivel – who, even though he was doubtful, made the crampons for the “English gentleman”, who had the undoubtable advantage of being able to pay. Success was immediate, so much so that on the 30th. of June 1912 a competition for “cramponneurs”, between guides and porters, was organized on the Brenva glacier.
It is important to note that Eckenstein also introduced a special marking system to judge the competitors’ style in the various trials. This could make it the first climbing competition in the history of mountaineering, even though it was on ice.
Fritz
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
|
DR
> You're right, there's something so archetypal about that shot. I too never tire of it, and never tire of several other of the Scottish images that have gotten onto this thread
This one below is my own version of that shot (I'll rephrase it - it probably gives me the same archetypal feel you may get from that Marshall pic)
It's Gianni Comino (one of the our "scruffy lads" - I like the definition - even he was the opposite of scruffy), taken by Giancarlo on August 20, 1978. Third pitch, second step of the Ypercouloir. The perspective of this piture is wrong, as I discovered four years ago when I managed to see this pitch with my eyes - the upper column is weirdly tilted, and overhangs. The "wall" on the left is actually a roof.
The pitch took four hours to be climbed, and Gianni could not put any protection - the ice was so rotten and crumbly (ice cream consistence, in Giancarlo's words) that had to climb it basically soloing. The pitch above took another three hours, and Gianni fell for 40 metres, luckily without consequences. The tool used was a normal 70cm axe. without curved pick.
I understand that all this hype on my part for this picture may sound quite silly (if not even a bit boring) formost of the crew posting here - after all, Jeff did the Bridalveil climb in 1974, and I suppose this kind of stuff was rather commonplace in Scotland by 1978 standards. But for us, it was NEW - nothing like that had even been remotely attempted in the Mt. Blanc range, not even by the French (Gianni had soloed the Supercouloir in 1977). I remember seeing this picture on June 1979 in the Courmayeur guides bureau, and feeling a distinctive tingle on my spine, like "uh oh". It hasn't happened much often afterwards, and almost never in the last 10 years!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
|
Fritz:
thanks, until now I hadn't noticed the typo - and I was just wondering what the HECK the Battle of Hastings had to do with crampons!!
Another demonstration that trying to make thoughtful posting late at night after 10 hours work shifts is never a good idea...
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
|
Gordon:
I've found where you've read the "350 pitons" reference to the Gousseault - it's actually the number of pitons claimed for the Directe de L'Amitie (the source is the usual Buscaini/Vallot). Probably memory just played you a trick.
Then, as promised above, here's the list - all the relevant repeats made by British climbers on the Mt. Blanc area between 1970 to 1978. It doesn't cover the Aiguilles de Chamonix area. And of course it doesn't cover ascents who weren't in some way documented (there are many - possibly the majority)
I’ve added also the second ascent of the NF of Greuvetta (which was done in 1964, so outside the range of the 79’s, for reasons I’ll explain later.
The list is ordered by date of the repeat. Remember, these are only the repeats, no the many original routes opened by Brits during that period (so, no ”Scala di Seta”)
All the climbs listed are “peculiar”, left side stuff which seems to me was chosen because they looked cool, rather than anything else.
The most significant of the bunch it’s of course #11, the almost legendary 3rd ascent of the Gervasutti line on the east face of the Jorasses. It’s the only climb listed in the route where the repeat lasted more than the original ascent (3 vs 2 days, this was valid for the 2nd ascent of the Gervasutti too – Julien and Bastien in 1951 stayed three days on the wall). This is a testament to the difficulty of a that line who, in my opinion, was the most difficult rock climb of the Alps before the American Direct on the Drus was opened (far harder than the Cassin spur on the NF Jorasses).
This repeat had also a big resonance in Italy, because the article written by Joe Tasker for Mountain was translated by Italian magazine “Rivista della Montagna”, and made a lot of local climbers aware that alpinists from the UK and the US were not just climbing hard at home (or opening new routes in the Alps), but were also busy tackling revered but hardly repeated classics like this one. For someone was a big shock, as it began to clear the huge misunderstanding (in some way fuelled by Giampiero Motti famous 1974 article on the Yosemite climbing scene – “Il Nuovo Mattino”) that young English speaking climbers were only into pure technical difficulty, and had little interest for classical mountaineering.
Another interesting repeat is #13 – the S face direct to the Aiguille Noire de Peuterey is an obscure but again fairly difficult item, one of the few “Dolomite like” climbs of the area. Quite fascinating too to see many of these repeats done by the same people: Carrington/Rouse, or the Burgess brothers.
From 1975 onward there’s a definite shift towards more recent routes, so I guess there was really a lot of competition in Chamonix to see if these new routes were as difficult as the local climbers/press would made. Another interesting trivia – NONE of the routes of the list were originally climbed by Brits, as if the Snells field crew wasn’t much interested in the stuff.
The route #1 was put as a comparison. The 800m high NF of Mt. Greuvetta is one of the most obscure (if not THE most obscure) NF of the MB area.
The climb itself is a great one, but the face has a dreadful reputation, with a nasty climb/fatalities ratio - it's very rarely climbed, even today. What moved Brown (not Joe) and Woolcock to climb it may be an interesting subject on itself!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
|
Shown below is a pair of Austrian made Eckenstein 12 point crampons. They were made in Fulpmes by W Benossenschaf.
That front point curvature sure has a familiar look.
I am curious whether the Eckenstein name disappeared once Grivel independently developed the Ultralight 12 point using a better alloy of steel taken from railroad track stock?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 05:17am PT
|
Luca - I figured that the date for the Eckenstein crampons was a typo, I just couldn't resist the comment. Two dates known by every Brit schoolkid of my era were 55BC Julius Caesar invaded England (veni, vici, vici) and 1066AD William of Normandy landed at Hastings (this last bit of universal knowledge possibly due to a book called "1066 and all that"). Also, the allusion to Froissart as the recording journalist in lieu of our very own Signor Signorelli!
Luca, you really must stop this crap about boring anyone!!! Every word you write is lapped up by the rest of us!
I love the photo of the very elegant scruff Giani (it would be very hard, I know, for an Italian to compete with us Brits in the arena of scruffiness!!). The ice was crap ... would it have been possible for him to climb the icicle at all with the gear he had if the ice had been hard water ice? The Scot Cunningham with his English pal March climbed the icicle of the Chancer in 1969 using daggers and crampons - prefiguring the advent of front pointing with curved/angled axes. Cunningham experimented with front pointing up ever steeper angles of ice with crampons and daggers while in the Antarctic as a FIDS (Falkland Islands Dependency Survey AKA 'F*cking Idiots Down South') dog team driver. I did an early ascent of the Chancer in 1974 on good water ice using a Chouinard axe and Salewa hammer which I bet made it a LOT easier!!! I don't think I ever placed a single ice-screw in Scottish ice - didn't trust them one iota so I never bothered wasting the energy putting them in (plus I never owned one). I see that now they are very popular in Scotland ...
(By the by you forgot Terry King and my epic second ascent of Grand West Couloir in 1976 in your list!! Even Kingy fell off, but we got up it in the end!). I don't think that the original Cassin start to the Walker had many ascents before Kingy led it free in 1975??
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 07:54am PT
|
>Luca - I figured that the date for the Eckenstein crampons was a typo, I just couldn't resist the comment. Two dates known by every Brit schoolkid of my era were 55BC Julius Caesar invaded England (veni, vici, vici) and 1066AD William of Normandy landed at Hastings (this last possibly due to a book called "1066 and all that"). Also, the allusion to Froissart as the recording journalist in lieu of our very own Signor Signorelli!
Interesting coincidence - my brother (whose name is of course Signorelli!) is an expert on the Norman Conquest (particularly on Stamford Bridge), he has even published some article in Italy about the topic - even if his rabid anti-Norman stance in my opinion does a bit to undermine his academic credentials!
>I love the photo of the very elegant scruff Giani (it would be very hard, I know, for an Italian to compete with us Brits in the arena of scruffiness!!).
Here's it (from L to R): Giancarlo Grassi, Renato Casarotto and (sitting on the wall) Gianni Comino. The date of the picture is 21 july 1978, and the place is the terrace of the Monzino hut. The glacier on the background is the Freney. They had just opened yet another route on the Brenva side.
Renato did a lot of exceptional solo in the 80's (Ridge of no Return on Denali, FitzRoy, Broad Peak etc) then died in 1986 on K2.
As you may see, neither Renato (who was the prototypical Very Nice Lad) nor Gianni look particularly scruffy. They were both coming from relatively well to do families - Gianni was a trainee MD / surgeon. So they could afford Fila sweatshirts, which weren't cheap even back then.
On the other hand, Giancarlo Grassi WAS scruffy. He came from a poor (and I mean POOR) family from the mountain of the Susa valley (W of Turin), and had struggled of his life to maintain his family (and a climbing habit). He was extremely frugal on everything, and careful not to was a single bit of his hard gained collection of gear, but his sense of dressing/appearence remained for all his life that of a broken hippie from the most run down 70's commune you may imagine. I believe that in Italy a lot of people didn't take him seriously precisely for that - too bad, as he was the best ice climber we ever had (it took to French and Canadian to recognize that!)
>The ice was crap ... would it have been possible for him to climb the icicle at all with the gear he had if the ice had been hard water ice?
I believe Giancarlo and Gianni were expecting something like the Supercouloir, or the NE couloir des Drus (which they had no problem to climb) with steeper bits. The Ypercouloir is difficult to evaluate from the valley, as the access is a climb in the climb. So you can't see what's like until you've your nose stuck there. Had the icicle been harder, I think Gianni would have climbed it without too much hassle (he was already climbing lines on seracs, where the ice is normally concrete-hard).
>(By the by you forgot Terry King and my epic second ascent of Grand West Couloir in 1976 in your list!! Even Kingy fell off, but we got up it in the end!).
Wait a sec, what's "Grand West Couloir"? I know that in 1976 you climbed with him the Croz Spur direct, you mean that?
>I don't think that the original Cassin start to the Walker had many ascents before Kingy led it free in 1975?
Three recorded instances since then, or at least, that's what I got from the Boccalatte hut book.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 09:05am PT
|
The face and gully Gordon references.
"The pitch took four hours to be climbed, and Gianni could not put any protection - the ice was so rotten and crumbly (ice cream consistence, in Giancarlo's words) that had to climb it basically soloing. The pitch above took another three hours, and Gianni fell for 40 metres, luckily without consequences. The tool used was a normal 70cm axe. without curved pick."
Vertical ice high on a big Mtn with a straight pick 70cm axe in 1978? And a 100' fall on ice? That had to be a real adventure!
"But for us, it was NEW - nothing like that had even been remotely attempted in the Mt. Blanc range, not even by the French (Gianni had soloed the Supercouloir in 1977)."
Excuse me, are you saying Gianni soloed the Super Coulior on the Tacul in 1977 with a straight pick, 70 cm axe?
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 09:17am PT
|
Hi Luca
Grand West Couloir on the west face of the Plan...Gabarrou Picard-Deyme route - we repeated it in Sept of 1976. Incidently that had an icicle to climb quite near the top ... unfortunately it broke off when I was half way up!
What an incredible photo that is of the three Italian hot shots ... yup, Grassi would have fitted in very well camped in the Biolay! By the way Kingy was always terribly well dressed - climbed in trendy blue salopettes, matching blue sweater, classy red neckerchief around the neck, and enormous Dolomite Walker boots. Well, he is an actor after all!! And a VERY FAMOUS Fight Arranger for the RSC and the National Theatre in the UK. I have to call him 'Sire' these days!! Fortunately I don't get to actually see him (too far away) else I would have to bow and scrape as well I'm sure. Ironic that he should have climbed in those youthful days with the scruffiest climber of all!! Kingy was always right pissed off that I never owned a camera as all our shots were of scruffy me - none of him!!
Also first solo of Swiss Route on the Courtes in 1974 ... and there again probable first solo of the that longest and most dreadfully serious and dangerous of all ice climbs in the entire world, the Chere Couloir (the one on the north triangle of Mont Blanc de Tacul, not the REALLY SERIOUS one that goes up the seracs to the side of the Frendo) in 1975....I reckon that I'm the person that started using it as a 'school' route (for my ISM students in late 1975) for which purpose it now seems to be the de rigeur training ice climb. Boy I crunched and banged my way up that thing soooooo many times!!
Hey, Dane just posted a pic of the west face of the Plan. The Grand West is the left hand couloir under the summit, the Smith-Sorenson is the right hand one. The Smith-Sorenson has the more direct finish - straight up the headwall below the summit where the Grand West nips to the left up a wee icefall and then back up and right up a ramp to the top.
Quick Q, Luca - did Grassi lead the icicle?
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 11:09am PT
|
Dane emphasized the importance of conditions in alpine climbing and Doug contrasted the ice-cube-hard water ice of his neighborhood, the East side of the Sierra, with the frozen snow conditions that often prevail in the Alps.
Mike Graham and I arrived in Chamonix in 1976 and chose as our first ice climb the Swiss route on Les Courtes (which Gordon mentions he was first to solo two summers before). When we asked the Argentiere hut keeper to point it out to us, he obliged, but said no one had done it yet that year because it was “out of condition”. This puzzled us, because to Mike and I who had learned to climb ice on such DR first ascents as the Mendel Couloir and Lee Vining, it looked just fine, water ice from top to bottom!
Luca-I found a reference in the July 1975 Mountain Magazine to Renato Cassaroto’s first winter ascent of the Andrich/Fae route on the Punta Civetta over six days solo. He was doing early winter big walls, too.
Finally, from this morning’s NY Times about Kate Winslet’s emotional breakdown when accepting her Golden Globe award and why British critics were absolutely appalled.
“…many English people still feel repelled by all that capital-E emoting. Instead, said Frank Furedi, professor of sociology at the University of Kent, they stick to the old standbys: self-deprecation, false modesty and humor.”
This explains a lot.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
|
>Vertical ice high on a big Mtn with a straight pick 70cm axe in 1978? And a 100' fall on ice? That had to be a real adventure!
Again I feel that the phrasing of my posts is becoming rather poor on these days - I meant TWO 70cm ice axes, not just one.
I've been talking this afternoon with Renzo Luzi, who was a good friend with Giancarlo and Gianni (did the FA of the Freney icefall with Giancarlo and Marco Bernardi in 1980 - Europe highest altitude icefall), and he believes that in 1978 Gianni used - lo and behold - a pair of Chouinard ice axes with a 70cm shaft (the model with the head shown in the '73 Tiso ad on Mountain seen in this thread), as that's the way Giancarlo used to refer them. But I don't know if that still means he was using "straight pick-ed" axes, as the Chouinards werent' exactly straight at all - or at least, were comparatively curved in comparison with the axes used normally back then.
Gianni soloed the Supercouloir on 23rd Sept. 1978, not in 1977 (memory failed ME there), again used the same gear. In December 1978 he and Giancarlo (and Casarotto, I believe) went to Scotland for their first trip there (for Giancarlo the first of many). The climbed dozen of lines there and I believe they used there pair of Terrordactyls for the first time. This Scotland trip had long term consequences for Giancarlo, who began a "search" (he was into this type of things) to find a place in the Alps with real Scottish conditions. He did eventually find them, in the most unlikely place.
By '79 they had both moved to using Simond Chacal, which I believe Gianni used to solo the Boivin-Vallencant at the Nant Blanc face of the Aig. Sans Nom (yes, that was before Andy Parkins) and the Dufour-Frehel/Boivin-Vallencant combination on the NF of the Pilier D'Angle. However, the new tools meant that a lot of the edge of their '78 lines had been taken out, and Giancarlo confessed to his friends that with them on the NF of the Pilier D'Angle "you could climb everywhere". This lead in turn to the third phase of their partnership - the attempt to climb directly all the the giant seracs of the Brenva face of MB (which ultimately proved fatal for Gianni).
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
|
> By the way Kingy was always terribly well dressed - climbed in trendy blue salopettes, matching blue sweater, classy red neckerchief around the neck, and enormous Dolomite Walker boots. Well, he is an actor after all!! And a VERY FAMOUS Fight Arranger for the RSC and the National Theatre in the UK. I have to call him 'Sire' these days!! Fortunately I don't get to actually see him (too far away) else I would have to bow and scrape as well I'm sure.
I've seen on the Internet a video with him interviewed on the subject of his theatre work, and he looks like the most unlikely candidate EVER for being someone with a past as a NF climber in the 70's - I swear it's the living proof that appearence can be deceptive. He looks like the epythome of upper class Britishness!
>Ironic that he should have climbed in those youthful days with the scruffiest climber of all!! Kingy was always right pissed off that I never owned a camera as all our shots were of scruffy me - none of him!!
You're speaking of Colton here, eh? Here's a pic taken by a friend of mine during a meet in Scotland.
http://www.fuorivia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2894&start=15
Scroll down until you see him - there's an Italian behind him playing peek-a-boo!
> Also first solo of Swiss Route on the Courtes in 1974 ...
No, the first solo of the Swiss route was in 1968, by a German climber named Karl Hoffmann. My database never lies! :)
> and there again probable first solo of the that longest and most dreadfully serious and dangerous of all ice climbs in the entire world, the Chere Couloir (the one on the north triangle of Mont Blanc de Tacul, not the REALLY SERIOUS one that goes up the seracs to the side of the Frendo) in 1975....
You may be right here, worth doing some more research! I'll keep you informed of course
>I reckon that I'm the person that started using it as a 'school' route (for my ISM students in late 1975) for which purpose it now seems to be the de rigeur training ice climb. Boy I crunched and banged my way up that thing soooooo many times!!
You mean that all those poor souls that are taken there to learn the ropes and spend hours shivering at the base of the climb waiting for their turn - it's YOU they've to blame? I could blackmail you on this! :=)
>Quick Q, Luca - did Grassi lead the icicle?
On the Ypercouloir? No, that was Gianni. By 1978 Giancarlo was still "gearing up" on ultra difficult/dangerous ice (he would eventually more "take the lead" on this after Gianni's death in 1980).
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
|
More lovely filler material. From Climbing July-August 1977.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
|
Luca, I forgot to tell you about the other extremely long, difficult and inordinately dangerous ice route I did in 1975 - on the south face of the Midi. Narrow couloir, best climbed in snowy conditions, running up to the outlet of the men's toilet in the midi station. I did the first (probable) ascent and the second (probable) ascent. Possibly the only ever ascents! Known as 'La Voie Jaune', or 'La Goulotte Jaune' or perhaps just 'Le Couloir Direct WC'. Look, I'm just trying to get my name into your DB more times than that English sod Rousie!! How many more do I have to go?
In a more serious vein I loved the Chacal. Why do silly looking bent handled jobbies make climbing ice any easier? Or is that just the power of suggestion and commercialisation - gotta sell more and more tools to those guys? And knock the price up! I really cannot see why this should be.
Thanks for posting that article on the Croz route ... wasn't it in Mountain, not Climbing?? Talk about loose! I think Keine, further to the right on the main buttress, had much better climbing on better rock than we did!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
|
Climbing #43 me bucko! With a dandy Michael Kennedy shot of Chris Landry on Arrowhead Peak in the Wind Rivers.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
|
Wee Jock asks: "In a more serious vein I loved the Chacal. Why do silly looking bent handled jobbies make climbing ice any easier? Or is that just the power of suggestion and commercialisation - gotta sell more and more tools to those guys? And knock the price up! I really cannot see why this should be."
No doubt they don't cost much to produce past the pick. But with my ancestory I'm a bit tight with a penny myself. Besides being a curmudgeon I am also pretty hard sell having btdt with the old ice tools. Never backed off a climb because my tools weren't up to the task.
Like many of us on the thread I graduated from curved gear and later Terros. This pair of Simonds are mine and were well used from the '80s to mid '90s, having used everything available but not finding anything drastically better. Remember I would never intentionally hook rock until just recently. Anything that resembled ice was fair game however.
Look familiar?
I can relate to your distance from ice climbing having sailed a 54' cutter rigged Columbia back to the US from Am Samoa and Hawaii years ago:) You ever make it back to this side of the world, the scotch and ice are on me..seriously.
If you compare the Chacal to Nomic...you get a lot less weight both physically and in swing weight. A pick that will easily sink in any kind of ice, can not be easily broken or bent (i've tried @ 200#) and clean even easier than you can possibly imagine. (honest) The pick is fairly high tech for tooth design and it is forged. There is no longer a need to swing, more like a scratch and hook technique is all that is required now. Any one that ever used a Terro would absolutly love these things no matter how ugly you think they are at first impression. (far as I can tell there are few us around to make the comparison)
Biggest thing is they are leashless. Sounds really weird but it takes a LOT less strength to climb leashless. Couple of reasons for that. One you work the hands more like rock climbing, you drop your hands to shake a pump. You can wear lighter gloves and still be warmer because the wrist straps don't cut off the circulation in addition of being able to drop your hands and get the blood back in them easier.
You end up using natural features more often because you
can so easily let go of your tools with either a body "holster" or unbilicals. The antler handles and radical clearence bend allow you to move your hands up and down the shaft to take full advantage of every placement. So you make fewer...and I mean a lot fewer... placements than you would with say a Chacel or a Terro. As a "dager" they are amazingly secure on moderate terrain front pointing.
Not having a spike or hammer would seem to be a major disadvantage but actually way less that you would think at first glance. Stick the head in the snow and they make a decent walking stick on steep ground. Teeth on the back top of the pick hook well in that fashion. ( I stupidly ground my off on a couple of sets of picks before finding the technique) The rear end of the pick sticks out just enough to remove many pins if you are careful just not easily place them. Although a hammer is easily enough to add on the Nomic. (working on a terro type axe for mine) But there are similar tools that eliminate all those issues with little loss of the advantages of the more extreme Nomic. I've used both the newest BD carbon Cobra and the Petzel Quark.
I remember thinking Twight was being a little "out there" with his tool choice on the Slovak route, a bent shafted Cobra axe and a Carbon fiber BP hammer that he later gave me as a gift. Obviously he wasn't just ahead of the curve. With the tools Mark told me, "open your mind." Took me another 5 years to just begin that journey!
When I started climbing again a few years ago two pictures shook me up.
"Chris Brazeau soloing Mt. Alberta's signature feature--the 500-meter, fifty-five-degree ice face, shaped like an inverted triangle, that lies below the north-face headwall."
Having been there twice, including just days after Tobin's accident, I was spellbound with the thought process behind the tool. The modern tool being used here was way outside my realm of imagination for that route. Even after making the 2nd solo ascent of Edith Cavell after Robbins and the 2nd on Slipstream along with a number of the older "hard" routes in the area.
Then these really blew me away.
Shooting Gallery on Andromedia. A moderate alpine climb with a Nomic...WTF?
Then Ueli Steck.
I had spent a season with a set or Quarks. Soloed Shooting Gallery in winter with them along with Polar Circus. Nice tool and much more useable than expected. Then I saw a photo some where of Steck on the Difficult Crack. A place I have been that impressed me. Lots of dry tool marks that weren't there in '78. Steck of course had Nomics in hand in that picture.
At that point I went looking for a pair for cheap but still not convinced. Haven't climbed with anything since no matter the terrain. They are so much of an advantage for an old fat guy like me on modern technical terrain that I can easily over look the minor disadvantages. Add to that ice screws, that go in like Friends do in a clean crack, while holding more. Ice climbing is a whole different sport.
These from last week.
All this is one of the reasons I think it was McInnes and the Terro that has made the biggest influence on ice climbing.
I'd really like to hear any other comments on the comparisons of the old tools to the newest out there.
|
|
Wee Jock
climber
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
|
Dane, thanks for your analysis - very interesting, but those tools still look really weird (but didn't the terrors when they first came out??). Curious why you call them 'terro' and not 'terror'?? I think the word 'terror' very fitting, don't you!!
I can think of one critical problem with the new 'leashless' tools on alpine routes - dropping a tool. Could leave you in much trouble!
What do you do with one of the new tools when you go over the top of a bulge of hard (or crappy) ice into deep powder snow? That was one of the main reasons I loved my terror axe and would have considered climbing with 2 axes and a peg hammer, except that the axe was too light for hard, brittle ice. I never had a 'Barracuda' to go with my Chacal...I gave up alpinism before it came out (even before the Chacal was available commercially). What was the adze on that like? Judging by your photo I think I would have really liked to climb with a chacal and a barracuda.
I refer you to the article on the Croz posted above ... Kingy (and I) considered 'hooking' and 'torquing' etc as pure cheating (near the end of the article). Clearly ethics change!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
|
Umbilicals, lad :)
Nothing new to me 'cuz I used them soloing all kinds of stuff after seeing the Burgess twins and Bugs all hooked up for aid in the '70s. Took a bunch of sh#t for it while guiding as the token American with the local Candian hard men but didn't really give a sh#t as I was more concerned with living. Plopped off onto them more than once which obviously saved my life. Falling off first always kept me from looking for "aid" on ice! Remember how we'd run stuff out? I recently sold my old ice rack to a (can you believe it) collector. 8 chouinard tubes, 4 snarks and a wart hog. That is all I ever owned or used...on anything,, and never once placed them all on a lead!
Now guys place 15 or 20 screws on one pitch with less effort than we did just making anchors. Foook me running things are DIFFERENT!
I used a Zero and a Chacal a lot. Then two Chacals and finally the Barracuda match. Been told lots of guys went to two Barracuda and a alpine hammer. The adze on a Terro and the Barracuda got me up more than one sun rotten pillar of Canadian ice that wouldn't tale a screw or a pick
Back to unbilicals. I learned two seasons ago...if you are going more than a rope length off the deck, both me and my partner will have umbilicals. I had expensive trips wrecked years ago from dropped tools when we used leashes. Leashless is a recipe for disaster without umbilicals. Screw the 'ethical" concerns on that one. I don't want to waste my time and energy messing around trading tools back and forth or the second climbing the rope.
BD and Grivel now offer commercial versions that are really slick. They girth hitch on to the harness (yes everyone wears an almost comfortable harness these days) with a swivel and full weight tiny biners to clip on and off the tool.
"What do you do with one of the new tools when you go over the top of a bulge of hard (or crappy) ice into deep powder snow"
I punt? The longer pics help but the combo of bigger clearence (radically bent handles) and longer picks usually make it a non issue now. I know hard to believe...
"Kingy (and I) considered 'hooking' and 'torquing' etc as pure cheating (near the end of the article). Clearly ethics change!"
Jello and others will no doubt role their eyes at this one and chuckle but I agree, it is cheating....really fun but still it is cheating....and for this old man, it feels realllyyyy gooooooood :) The ethics didn't change, for better or worse, climbing did.
Terro or Terror? Gordon, I'd like to have an answer for you but fact is I am just not that good at typing :) Strange looking......yes but hasn't form always eventually followed function in climbing?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
|
A stylin' Jello shot by Tom Frost from the 79 Ama Dablam expedition.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
|
Great News DR!
From Mountain 41.
|
|
#310
Social climber
Telluride, CO
|
|
Great - I might need one for getting downtown safely. We had a little ice event last night - all melted today. But I had to wear crampons to walk downtown to dinner. I need a baby ice pick that will fit in my fancy evening out backpack. Does it come in colors?
Ah the demands of living in a social mountain town.
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
FWIW DR sent me a picture I hope he'll post shortly of his McInnes axe/hammer. Pick has way more droop than the one I have and Steve posted.
The model shown above has a straight pick with a very shallow angle...about 1/2 what a piolet has in curve and only 2 tiny round teeth.
But what a finely made tool! Not a big fan of metal axes but this thing is really, really nice. Steel used is extremely high quality. Handle is very oval not round at all. Mine had a bit of ancient surface rust which easily polished off. Underneath English broad arow proof marks and a 1973 production date. It also has the original hauser laid nylon leash attached. Great self arrest and dry tooling axe...as you'd not likely break the pick as it is a full 9mm thick.
Polished up like new and it is modern art!
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
|
Hoping Doug doesn't mind me posting his email here but though others might enjoy this as well.
"Interesting. '73 seems late for them to be making a straight pick. 3+ years after YC had his drooped pick on the market. Hmmm... Is there a date on your set of Terrors? ( no dates on mine, db) I wondered too about the seemingly slight droop on mine, but I think it is just a trick of the photo, with the shaft angled toward the camera. I remember how good the steel was. That combined with the thickness and I would be flat amazed if anyone, ever, anywhere even bent one. It's' in Ecuador now, or wherever Fischer dropped it off on
that early 70s guiding trip. I was disappointed, even though I had long since switched to a 70 cm Chouinard Piolet and matching ice hammer. Did that a few months before that photo, which makes me wonder a little what made me grab the MacInnes for that "family portrait" of the Armadillos at Cardinal Village. I think even then I felt nostalgic
for it as a fine tool.
Cheers,
Doug"
Side note...just how many of us bought that cheap, blue canvas, anorak from REI?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
|
Some seriously futuristic ice funk from the brilliant mind of Greg Lowe. The tools at the time may have been primitive but the thinking clearly was not!
Greg Lowe on Mahlen's Peak waterfall. Lance Wilcox photo.
That last paragraph is prophetic and all in the family! LOL
|
|
RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
|
|
|
Mar 16, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
|
Amazing mind...
Pretty obvious where the BD Spectra, Charlet Ice Six tools, Snowdon Curver tools, and the Chouinard Zeros came from. And with a little imagination the more modern, bigger clearenece tools and knuckle protection. Guess all that happens when you climb 5.12 on a regular basis in the mid NINETEEN SIXTYs and WI6 by 1971.
I remember making a copy of that north wall hammer myself and then replacing it with one of the commercial copies when they arrived.
"all this sounds complicated and slow but is much faster than aid" and that sounds a lot like modern M climbing.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
|
I came across this Charlet obit in Mountain 47. Amazing career to say the least!
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
|
Check this out, deep in the Obit:
Col est des Pelerins, from the North, with Robert Underhill and Miriam O'Brien
This links Charlet's influence directly to us! Recall that Underhill, a Harvard professor, was the one who brought ropework to the Sierra on his famous trip in 1931. We always credited Underhill's education in turn to "learning it in the Alps." But now I see that he was taught directly by the great Charlet, the leading guide in France between the Wars.
This is so cool!
And when Underhill got here, his eager students included Norman Clyde, Jules Eichorn and Glen Dawson, who became the leading climbers in both the High Sierra and the Valley (and even at Tahquitz) for at least the next decade. And they passed on the technique and the inspiration to the generations leading to us.
I hardly need to remind anyone here of the way that group tore through the Sierra in August 1931, making the FA of the East Face of Whitney, FA of Thunderbolt, FA of the North Couloir of Temple Crag, etc.
And in 1934 Eichorn, with other members of the newly-formed Cragmont Climbing Club, brought the first technical ascents to the Valley on both the Higher and Lower Cathedral Spires.
Let's bring this all the way back around to what, after all, started this thread. When I worked on the history chapter of Climbing Ice, Chouinard impressed on me Armand Charlet's crucial influence on the elegant French Technique -- surely the most subtle and beautiful culmination of the art of moving on steep neve if not outright ice. That's how they must have climbed, after all, the day he took Robert Underhill and Miriam O'Brien (soon to become Mrs. Underhill) along on that FA of the Col des Pelerins.
What I'm seeing now, for the first time, is Charlet's direct influence on us as rock climbers too.
I wonder if Charlet, who revived and led for a decade the ENSA, the Ecole Nationale de Ski et d'Alpinisme that trained French Guides -- I wonder if he ever knew how he helped set in motion rock climbing in California, which in a few decades evolved into a Golden Age that became the cutting-edge of rock climbing in the World?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
|
Such a poignant perspective you're presenting to us here Doug!
(Pardon my alliteration)
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
|
Very good resume of Charlet's life, but it does miss what may have been the greatest climb he ever attempted - and very nearly achieved: the first ascent of the north face of Grandes Jorasses via the Croz spur, in 1934, together with Ferdinand Bellin, another Chamonix guide who was an astonishing free climber for the standard of the 30's. Charlet did five attempts at the Croz spur, and the final one with Bellin could have been successful, if the weather had not looked sour, forcing them to return from more or less quote 3600. Charlet never used points of aid when rock climbing: had he succeded in finishing the route - and chances were that he could have - the whole history of mountaineering may have changed, as it would have demonstated that even the most difficult alpine faces could have been won in pure "western" style, and thus without the artificial methods used by "easterners" (Dolomite climbers etc). As it happened, both the Croz and the Walker spur where first climber using aid climbing.
Charlet influence on "western" climbers, particularly those active in Chamonix and Courmayeur was enormous, almost to mythical levels. Renato Chabod (who was Giusto Gervasutti's regular partner and followed him in the second ascent of the Croz spur, 48 hours after the first), once wrote "I had two gods: Grandes Jorasses and Armand Charlet", adding that seeing Charlet fail on the Croz spur had convinced him that the wall was impossible "by fair means". It was Chabod who coined the phrase "Charlet l'a dit", which ironically paraphrased the latin motto "Ipse dixit": "Charlet said it" (thus it must be so).
It's interesting to note also that the Walker spur was finally conquered by Riccardo Cassin, an "eastern" climber completely devoid of any kind psychological awe towards Charlet (and the Jorasses, to be honest).
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
|
The master, Armand Charlet
The disciple, Yvon Chouinard
both from Climbing Ice
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
|
Unreal, DR! Now that's pure technique. 3 points gets you up. About 65-70 degrees is the limit isn't it? And people ski this!
Hmmm French technique...right where this thread started.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
May 24, 2009 - 12:10am PT
|
It's pure alright, knocking right up against the limit of balance, and I think a little steeper than gets skied on any sustained slope. God -- I hope so!
Charlet's looks a tad steeper, but Yvon is on pure flinty water ice -- the 'schrund wall of the V-Notch. I don't think anyone skis that kind of burnished surface at any radical angles.
A lot of full circles here, especially when you count Charlet's influence on bringing the rope to California nearly 80 years ago.
We should have an anniversary party in the Palisades!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2009 - 09:19am PT
|
Only if Glen will show up! Might need a mule...
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
May 31, 2009 - 03:03am PT
|
On Dane Burns comment Jan 6, 2009 shows yellowed photos of an ad with Chouinard first generation alpine hammer on top, and on bottom is a Climbmax. Now the Climbmax I have is beautifully made where the head and handle holders are one piece and the handle holders are channeled and fitted into the handle. This photo shows that the axe head is attached to the standard Alpine hammer handle and the head holders are separate pieces. Maybe I have missed something but has this item ever been marketed?
All right whos got one out there? I really would love to see a better photo of one.
Rock on! Marty
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
May 31, 2009 - 03:30am PT
|
Steve Grossman, about your 1968 catalog, can you show us the prices page, pages 30,31 If it is the same as what I have. Chouinard sometimes put out many catalogs within the same year usually only changing the items in the back list.
Do you have any other Chouinard catalogs or pamphlets specifically 1957 - 1971?
Rock on!
Marty
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
May 31, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
|
Hand forged Climax from an alpine hammer ?
"This photo shows that the axe head is attached to the standard Alpine hammer handle and the head holders are separate pieces. Maybe I have missed something but has this item ever been marketed?"
I also thought someone might have or at least seen one. May be DR? But no matter the climax that was forged from a alpine hammer blank would have been a much better climbing tool because of the added weight compared to the production version that came from Camp...the "toy" ice axe.
Dick Irvin is the other ice climbing connection (Scotland-California) from this thread that I really enjoyed finding out about.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=836643&msg=837109#msg837109
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
|
Marty- I would be very surprised if more than one version of those early catalogs were produced. I only have that one 68 catalog in my collection prior to the 72 clean climbing catalog. Regrettably, I razor cut out some of the text on the price page for an art project long ago and would rather not torture you with the result.
Do you have a building for your trove or plans for the near future?
Cheers
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 17, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
|
Marty: Here is my copy of prices from Chouinard 1968 prices. My notes show it was bought from Snug Mountaineering in Ketchum, Idaho. Most likely I grabbed it late fall or winter 1968.
Please let us know if prices are same as your copy. I do not have any Chouinard information prior to this. I was just getting into this avocation.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
|
Please excuse the hole and the bad assumption.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
|
Blasphemy Mr. Grossman!
I hope you were but a teensy teenager when you wrought such evil upon the sacramental parchment.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
|
So-----fellow Tacoites----as we say (in moments of total surprise) in posh salons here in Idaho, while sipping chardonay: "Damn! I'll be totally immersed in canine excrement" ----or a similar expression.
Marty was right. There were multiple price sheets for the 1968 catalog. It appears the one I posted is later than Steve's.
I was a Chouinard dealer from 1973-83, buddies with the reps, and I have no memory of multiple price lists in any year.
Marty: thanks for keeping us honest!
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Jun 18, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
|
According to the "official" story on the Patagonia web site:
"Fortunately, there was an alternative: aluminum chocks that could be wedged by hand rather than hammered in and out of cracks. We introduced them in the first Chouinard Equipment catalog in 1972.
Within a few months of the catalog's mailing, the piton business had atrophied; chocks sold faster than they could be made. In the tin buildings of Chouinard Equipment, the steady pounding rhythm of the drop hammer gave way to the high-pitched, searing whine of the multiple-drill jig."
Any idea when CAMP started making Chouinard pitons? Presumably they made all of the ice axes and hammers until later years.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 11:28am PT
|
I'll have to check my "68" to see how it compares to these.
I have noticed different versions of what everybody would call
the 72.
My first one had the Klocker boots, but I've seen one that had
another make of ice boot (Molitor or Haderer, I think).
The version I now have has the regular pages with Klockers,
but the price list has the Molitor(?), plus numerous items not
pictured or described in the catalog text.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 11:29am PT
|
I would suspect the differerence is winter and summer price sheets. Lack of winter gear on Steve's might be a clue.
Camp started making the LAs for Chouinard in the late '70s. ('78?) Don't think they ever made the hammers and obviously always made the wooden shafter axes. They also made the hand forged heads of the earliest fiberglass axes.
The '78 catalog shows the Zero tools with what are obviously painted wooden shafts representing carbon and the first carbon shafted axe.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
|
Roy- Too young and foolish was I to see my mistake. It was a beautiful coat of arms that I still remember but soooo not worth it now!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
|
RDB: I will agree that there must have been summer and winter catalogs. In fact I have a 1970 pamphlet-style Chouinard brochure that is short and mostly winter stuff.
On pitons: I recently did a bit of research on dates that Chouinard introduced different models of items. Before that I would have agreed that Lost Arrow production moved to Italy in about 1978.
Again to my surprise: it occured by the 1975 catalog per the below page.
I am going to stop trusting my memory!
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
|
Interesting. CAMP still makes the Lost Arrows (for BD in the US, their own name everywhere else). 34 years of continuous production without change (well, no more super long dongs). Can't think of any other climbing product that even comes close.
So all the Chouinard hammers were made in Ventura and all the ice axes in Italy? Seems logical to have CAMP make hammers too but maybe not. Crampons and ice screws were from Salewa in Austria. Ropes from Mammut in Switzerland.
Wonder why Patagucci says the first catalog was in 72 when it would be to their advantage to claim even older. Not that anyone cares.
|
|
Jim Herrington
Mountain climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
|
Here's a piton made from the hands of Chouinard himself, in July 2000, in his old shop.
I was there photographing him, he was doing some work that day, I photographed the finished product:
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
|
Clear testimony to Tom Frost who is ultimately the designer of the modern Arrow and created and refined the dies still in use. Tom would say that Salathe deserves the credit, of course.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
|
Ain’t no Flatlander:
Since I worry that any minor errors on these posts will become locked in history: I need to share a few more Chouinard items that were produced in Ventura-----at least for a while.
Ice screws: Chouinard sold Salewa Tubular screws up to 1976 and then switched to their U.S. made Chouinard Tubular Screw.
They sold Salewa Warthogs (Salewa Spiral) up through 1975, then sometime in the late 70’s briefly made a similar, but very cool, Chouinard USA Warthog. I can’t find it in my 1975, 78, 81, or 84 Chouinard catalogs (but I own 3 that I purchased in the late 1970’s-or possibly early 1980’s).
Carabiners: from their product history in the catalogs, Chouinard made his own Carabiners (in Ventura) from 1957 to 1968.
I am sure there were different runs of these. I own some that only say Chouinard, but one sold recently on EBAY that said Chouinard on one side and 820 Alcoa 7075 on the other.
1968-1972 they went to a new style that Salewa made. It says Chouinard/Salewa on one-side and 2200 KP on the other. Initially these were not tested for strength, but later ones were tested and stamped that on the gate.
1974 carabiner production went back to US and I think----stayed here.
I suspect there are other items that went in and out of U.S. production, but these are the ones I have keyed on.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
|
Prior to the flat sided Chouinard modified D (1974) that was made in great numbers, I have seen at least 4- 5 earlier versions. One clear indicator of age is the growing size of the stamps over time on biners and angles. They start very small at first and get larger with each generational design modification.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 02:11am PT
|
Ray, the '75/'76 catalog with Frost's picture of Machapuchare on the cover has the Chouinard wart hog on page 47.
I bought my first ones, most likely from you, after we broke the older style ones (yours?) on Deborah. My journal says wart hogs were the only thing that really worked. Makes sense they didn't get used much (some hammer marks on mine but not a lot) as the new tubes came out within the same or at the latest the next winter season.
I kept one of the new hogs to help clean those new tubes.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
|
Any photos or tales from your Deborah trip that you would care to share. What route did you get on? A very beautiful and historic peak.
Mount Deborah from the south. The 1954 party approached from the west and gained the corniced south ridge at the saddle which appears to be just below the summit. They took six hours from here to the top. The east ridge, right, has so far turned back all attempts. Austin Post photo.
From Climbing in North America by Chris Jones, 1976.
A couple of Hog, Tube and Screw shots from up thread.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
|
Dane: Feel free to post up Deborah photos I shared with you, if you have time.
Re Chouinard Wart Hog----it is Deja-vue all over again. I think you told me previously about the Chouinard Wart Hog being in the 1975 catalog, but my scan of it shows the older Salewa warthog. I now realize your page 47 may well be from a newer issue of the 75 catalog.
So-----here's the Chouinard USA Warthog above the older Salewa. Steve has a fine photo of the newer Salewa (which I don't think Chouinard cataloged) in his photos of screws: posted 12/22/08 on this link.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
|
Were the modern Warthogs drop forged? The Salewa versions seemed to be cut from solid round stock with the eye loop added on.
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
|
Fritz, Thanks for sending me the price list from your 1968 catalog. I have the same price list as you, but also I have a different one. The 1968 catalog on the price list page shows a photo of pitons and Yo hammer at the bottom. I have this catalog, and I have this same catalog with a Ventura post date on it Sept 1969. I also have another 1968 catalog with the longer pricelist (no photo on bottom)(same as Fritz) with postdate of late 1969. Question is did Chouinard produce a 1969 catalog? Chouinard may have mailed out the earlier catalog to the individual if he ran out of the 69 catalog? Who knows? Interesting though that early 68 catalog lists Mammut Rope and Clogwyn Wedge-Wedge sm and large. My later 68 possible 69 catalog lists Clogwyn Wedge 1,2,3,4, Chouinard Rope, Jackets, mitts, glasses, Piolet 55cm/70cm. Chouinards History List shows Piolets at 1969.
Overall Chouinard Catalog history: first mail order catalog came out in 1964 and was only a one page list of equipment and prices. I have copy of 1965 catalog which has front cover of climbers on pitch 4 of North American wall. I have not seen a 1966 catalog. I have copy of 1967 catalog which has assorted pitons and Yo hammer on front cover. I have two versions of 1968 catalog which both have ice climber on front cover. I believe that there was no 1969 catalog, just price list changed in 68 catalog to serve as 69 catalog. (somebody please show me that I am wrong). If your 1968 catalog shows a Piolet in the price list, you may be holding the 69 catalog. I have copy of 1970 catalog which shows two ice climbers on front cover and says '70. I have terrible copy of a 1971 supplement catalog that has a single hex on front cover. It states that the Yo hammer and Alpine were completely redesigned for an improvement for 1971. I also have an orange color booklet that is an instruction manual for the use of Chouinard Pitons. It has no date but I always thought it was circa 1970-71. I believe it was created for the European market since Carabiner is spelled Karabiner throughout the booklet. Chouinard never spelled Carabiner with a "K" that I know of.
Chouinard printed 10,000 catalogs in 1972. The 72' catalog at the time was considered the best literature on climbing. This catalog has got to be the most desired catalog by collectors. The front cover is Japanese water painting and the same cover remained through 1974. If you have the very first catalog, the price list in the back of the catalog should be in a single column. Most of the other price lists states the date of the catalog somewhere on the page. Keep in mind that over 1972-74 there was a new catalog every quarter. So basically 12 different possibilities with the same cover. I have only found 5 so far. In 1973 Chouinard incorporated and changed it's name to Great Pacific Ironworks. 1973 Chouinard put out a supplement fold-out brocure which shows the super rare #1 Crack N' Up. Crack N' Ups were not sold until 1975. Only 10 #1 Crack N' Ups were produced and 6 were destroyed in the testing. #1 would start bending at 150lbs so it was never produced. The 1975, 1976, and 1977 catalog all has the same "Machapuchare" front cover - If you have the 1975 it will have solid hexes on page 8. If you have the 1976 it will have hexes with holes on page 8. If you have the 1977 it will have 1977 in the History list showing Featherweight Carabiner. By 1976 Chouinard was distributing 35,000 catalogs. From 1978 to present Black Diamond there is a new catalog every year, sometimes many catalogs for each year.
So I guess what I am saying, Does anybody out there have the 1964, 1966 and 1969 Chouinard catalogs?
Rock on!
Marty
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
|
Jim,
Awesome photo of the Chouinard Piton and Stamp!!!!!!!!!!!
I would love to have a copy of it!
Rock on!
Marty
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
|
This thread just keeps getting better and better! Awesome photos and info on the catalogs, thanks!
Deborah? I would but with all due respect to Ray we were pogues on Deborah in '76. 4 kids with no idea what they were getting into.
The next year after a aborted trip to Makalu with Roskelley I was working in a bush camp in SE Alaska. Pretty full of myself being hired as a full time "climber" doing surveying. Then this skinny, wild haired kid (we were wild haired kids then) shows up working with the geologists. One of the guys mentions to me he had just climbed Deborah a couple of weeks before.
I said, "BULL SH#T! Really? No way?!" Dave introduced me to Carl Tobin...just back from the 1st ascent of the NW ridge and the rest is history. Carl then went back with Cheesmond and did Jensen's east Ridge years later. While I still think about it on occasion I have never been back.
But what was the chances of two guys who had been on Deborah showing up in a fly in mining camp....200 miles from no where in SE Alaska in '77? Small world.
So who has a hand forged Climax?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
|
Adventure awaits everyone in the mountains, pogues and supermen alike. Great stories don't really require great deeds...
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
|
And that proprietary Warthog is some very slick industrial design.
Frost again?
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
|
Slick design on the Warthog, all right. Beautiful! It sure has the feel of Frost; I'd like to believe it's his, and can't recall when he left the company.
I'm appreciating it all the more now as a pure design. Kind of blew past it at the time. Functionally it never stood up to a screw in any mode in Sierra water ice: in, out, or strength.
Steve, your question about how it was actually made has me scratching my head. Someone on here has got to be able to tell us. I hope. Anyone know if the fabrication method was then available of pouring finely powdered metal into a mold and zapping it with electricity? Small steel nuts were later made that way, fused right onto their cables.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
|
Chouinard's wart hog we are looking at I believe was investment cast. DR your are right it does look like it could well be a MIM part. I would be suspicious of that technology for a ice pin. Catastrothic fail (work with MIM parts on a daily basis) is common and I think later technology. Frost left GPIW in 1975.
But everyone is right, looks like a Frost design to me as well :) Certainly time frames are close enough so the GPIW version of the wart hog could well be a Frost design. Someone should ask.
Now, DAMIT, who has a hand forged climax?
Not Chouinard and a bit later..end of the '70s. CURVERS by Snowdon Molding. Hand forged heads by Stubia and one at a time hand made shafts by Snowdon Moldings. Boardman and Tasker used them on Changabang, Mugs used one on Moonflower Buttress and Moose Tooth with a Roosterhead. Enough curve in the pick to keep filing them down and adding teeth as required to keep them in service. Most were between 40cm and 45cm and tough as a rock !!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
|
I would bet that the hand forged Climax never made it past prototype before aesthetics and weight turned it toward the miniaturized piolet head.
The Warthog must have been drop forged as it has a clear seam plane. The older warthog that I used began to mushroom on the second or third use leading me to believe it was machined from ordinary round stock with the eyeloop welded on last just like the Salewa tubes.
Nice progression of Curvers!!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
|
A little carabiner dump for those interested.
The 1968 catalog page.
The 1972 catalog page showing the same biner with a bigger nose IMO.
Some more Chouinard biners that are hopefully in focus. 1968 to 1974 on the left pair (two versions), 1974 and past flat sides (two versions).
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Jun 21, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
|
Steve: I'm trying to get up to speed on the pre 1972--------pre-Salewa Chouinard carabiners. In your photo of 4 carabiners, will you share what inscriptions (sounds holy doesn't it?) are on the far-left (another clue) earliest carabiner.
I'm also curious about the Chouinard Salewa Carabiner with the X in front of and behind Chouinard-Salewa. Was that owner made or something from production?
thanks, Fritz
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
|
The X is my stamp and I will have to go digging to find those biners again. The 68 to 74 run seems to have two flavors but I need to get a better look again. I didn't have my digital camera figured out when those shots were taken. More soon.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
|
This links Charlet's influence directly to us! Recall that Underhill, a Harvard professor, was the one who brought ropework to the Sierra on his famous trip in 1931. We always credited Underhill's education in turn to "learning it in the Alps." But now I see that he was taught directly by the great Charlet, the leading guide in France between the Wars.
Also, another American spent a fair bit of time in Europe under the tutelage of French guides (Georges Charlet: brother to Armand?): Bradford Washburn. Spent 1927 – 1929 and 1931 (the ’31 season apparently spent mostly making a film on climbing Mont Blanc for Burton Holmes) in the alps climbing. Did a new route on the Aiguille Verte in 1929. "Among the Alps with Bradford"…
I would bet that the hand forged Climax never made it past prototype before aesthetics and weight turned it toward the miniaturized piolet head.
If you look at the 1972 Chouinard catalog, there’s a photo of Yvon climbing with that style of Climaxe. The Climaxe in the catalog, however, is the standard model.
Here’s a photo of a couple different styles of Climaxe. The one on the left is a standard model, I think, bamboo shaft (not sure if they all came with that, anyone know?). Both marked as "Chouinard-Frost". Markings in the photo on the other side of the head are similar, but, the "made in Italy" is in different locations. The one on the right has a much smaller head, and, a custom length shaft more like an ice axe shaft which had been cut off, maybe a prototype. The head also has a swell in it, directly over where the shaft comes into it, like some of their ice axes. The one on the left is straight-sided across the top (very apparent top looking down).
Photo of an alcoa biner, top and bottom on the left, and a later version on the right:
Great stuff.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
|
I remember seeing toy ice axes/walking sticks for sale to the tourists in Chamonix which looked just like a Climax head but with a ice axe shaft instead of the shorter Climax shaft we generally saw here in the USA.
Never saw a Climax with anything but a wooden shaft...yours is the first bamboo one I can remember seeing. (memory, what's that?)
Brian, good catch on the Chouinard catalog picture with a forged Climax. Never noticed it before. Plain as day if you look at the "Climax" ad picture. Thanks!
Still think a hickory handled Climax with that extra weight of being forged from a alpine hammer head would have been a pretty decent tool where the Premana "toy axe" sucked.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
|
Bump for Barry, The Iceman!
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
This awesome thread needs to stay alive....bump!
Life could be a dream....18 of 34 different Chouinard/BD hammers
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
|
Don't you fret there, Marty. I love to bump the good ones! Nice hammer collection!
Tonight's offering is a dandy little gully axe made by Mountain Technology also out of Glencoe.
The radical curvature is easily seen when compared to Mimi's bamboo euro Zero underneath.
Is Mountain Technology a Hamish MacInnes concern or were others shaping axes in Glencoe? Wee Jock?
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
Time for a well deserved bump!
Chouinard alpine hammers...top to bottom...'71 '75 and the last hickory version from 'early '80s.
Ice tools?
I tried to lay them out chronologically top to bottom and only one tool if there were hammer and adze unless one model proceeded the other like the Tero and the Simond.
Crampons? Doesn't take much to see the lineage here. Chronologically from left to right top to bottom.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
|
What, no Footfangs? Just kidding...Very nice progression of axes and crampons!
Marty- How did you arrive at the 34 figure? Did your bank account scream just say no to ice gear?!? LOL
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Yeah, I think he had to cut it off at just hammers and Climbaxes...
Can't imagine tossin' ice tools into the mix too. Although, probably not as many different models as hammers, when considering the variations of yos, crag, and alpine.
He's crazy I tells ya...
-Brian in SLC
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
Myself and Brian in SLC are creating a list of all known Chouinard/BD hammers which includes 3 Climaxes, since the first Climaxe had a hammer handle. So far the count is at 32 different Chouinards. BD hammers only add two to this list which brings the overall count to 34 different hammers. I am putting together proof at how I come to this number. I thought I was damn near having the monopoly on this subject at 17 different hammers. Then Brian came along and put me back down the rabbit hole. He then made me, forced me, pushed me to go back and rereview the catalog library. Wow was I way off! My research also shows that the added notch at the bottom of the 1975 hammer head was created pre 1975, possibly at the end of 1973. (Damn that 1972/73/74 catalog!)Product changes through the years but no photo proof since the catalog stayed the same.
Rock on! Marty
|
|
Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
|
|
I'd like to see some Black Prophets, which I think are the best ice tool ever, even in this era of Nomics, Cobras and Quarks
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
|
RDB - Is the Northwall hammer with the blue tether (lower left) a Mountain Technology item, same as the one I just posted above? Know anything about the company?
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I'd like to see some Black Prophets, which I think are the best ice tool ever, even in this era of Nomics, Cobras and Quarks
I still have a pair, but, compared to the later version CFBP, they collect a bit of dust.
Yeah, when they came out, they were a "must have" for me.
But...I'm a huge fan of the first gen. Cobra. My CFBPs still rule in the alpine, though. Great tools.
Pretty funny name for a tool, considering, in Utah, many folks thought it would take years, or, maybe never, that there'd be a "Black Prophet".
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
|
A little research reveals that my Mountain Technology axe is vintage early eighties and not related to Hamish MacInnes in any way.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
|
Back to the mettle behind the metal. Tobin and Jack Roberts do Kitchener in winter! From Climbing Jan/Feb 1980.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
|
Classic Lowe Alpine Systems ad from the back of the same issue.
|
|
Michael Kennedy
Social climber
Carbondale, Colorado
|
|
CF Black Prophets and earlier straight-shaft Black Prophets I used on the Wall of Shadows in 1994.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
|
That was a proud effort, Michael!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
A thread for those who are bored with tonights ST offerings.
Bump
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
|
DR was on that Ama Dablam expedition and may have some photos to share. I have a few more Tom Frost shots but I am in Louisiana right at the moment. That shot of Jeff is just superb!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
|
Just finished "Chris Bonnington, Mountaineer"
More pictures of the elusive MacInness handiwork:
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
|
Speaking of classic ice :)
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
Wow! There is some seriously great reading on this thread. It sure beats the hell out of my new Rock and Ice photo issue, and the pictures are better too. How did so many of you California guys get so into waterfall ice. I know there was a great Montana crew that had the goods close at hand. Any of you guys got some good stories about coming into the Yellowstone aera to climb ice? I know there is a good story about the first ascent of California Ice in the Beartooths in Joesephson's guidebook.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
I am sorry to say the Photobucket Photos I posted earlier in this thread are all gone. I organized my Photobucket files a month ago and screwed up the links to Super-Topo.
At that time: I posted to a warning to Supertopo users, but I notice this week that others are "feeling my pain" when they move Photobucket photos.
Sorry, for the missing photos, but at this time, there is no way to fix that on older thread replies on ST.
Fritz
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
No worries unkie Fritz just repost them all :) Not like anyone will complain!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:17am PT
|
Trundle Bumb!
That’s pure class through and through!
From the motorbike with bare hands clutching the clip-ons, tooling through the countryside (what is that, BSA, Triumph, Royal Enfield ... Norton? Crank case covers seen at the end should be a giveaway)…to the cool jazz with standup bass and top kit…the stage is well set and I am enamored of that Scottish countryside with which they nicely treat and frame the context.
He’s well mic’d and it’s an artistic visual story; with a traditional conclusion!
Next we need John Cleare and Leo Dickenson?
http://www.mountaincamera.com/about_john_cleare_new_2.htm
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Mar 10, 2010 - 10:20am PT
|
Fritz:
You may be able to recover your picture placement if all you did was rename folders in photo bucket...
In that case you just return the folders to their original names and your picture placement will be restored.
I made that simple mistake and corrected it just last week.
Now if you moved pictures, it's possible that if you replace them in their original spot in folders with their original names all will be well...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
|
Our own DR lovin' that Sierra ice! From Mountain 11 Sept 1970.
I'd like to get some sleep before I travel, but if you got some front points I guess they're gonna sink in...hey now keep on truckin' on!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
|
Some thoughts on the ice game from master Andre Contamine as they appear in AAJ 1969.
Hail to "the glorious uncertainty of the Sport!"
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
|
A slowly melting Bump.....That could re-freeze!!!
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
praying for refreezing
|
|
Woz
Trad climber
NSW, Australia
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
|
Hi guys,
Came across this great thread whilst slowing compiling an online record of those long lost catalogs. Wonderful stuff here. Keep it coming.
You might also be interested in my modest effort, which is very slowly endeavouring to chart the evolution of innovative outdoor gear, by scanning old catalogs from the 70s and 80's, and trying to cobble together a historical timeline.
http://homepage.mac.com/inov8/Compass/compass.html
Also take a peek at the Links page, as it references some other excellent online resources that I'm sure would intrigue some, like the vintage nuts, carabiners and crampons sites.
cheers, Warren.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
|
I have sets of both early Footfangs just shown. I still climb in the latest rounded heel version of them.
|
|
skinner_ab
Big Wall climber
Calgary, Alberta
|
|
|
May 19, 2010 - 09:16am PT
|
I'm glad someone found this thread and resurrected it for me to stumble upon. It's really got me wondering who RDB is as I look through all the photos of climbs.. many of which are now considered Canadian Classics. The names, Tobin Tobin Sorenson, Bugs McKeith, etc., etc. all of my hero's at the time.
I *thought* it was Bugs who brought the first set of Terrors to Calgary? and soon after all the Big - Steep ice began to be climbed via aiders directly attached to their tools. I remember going to a slide show shortly after the first ascent on Takakkaw Falls. A huge feat at the time, and a moderate WI 4 climb today (except for the 14km ski approach). I'd love to see some more photos of these climbs from the 70's, finding them seems to be getting harder and harder as everyone here seems to ice climb these days and searching the web for anything with the words "ice climbing" in it, returns a couple million photos of classic ass-shots from last season
PS: what you referred to as "snarks",.. weren't they called "snargs"? either way, I never did trust them, it was that long slot that they began cutting into them to allow you to clean the ice out that I thought really compromised their integrity.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
May 20, 2010 - 01:19am PT
|
Skinner-AB: Re your question?
got me wondering who RDB is as I look through all the photos of climbs
Spokane WA/CDA ID boy: Dane Burns lurks and posts on ST from time to time. I climbed with him some BITD. He is still climbing, and was/is very much the "real deal."
You can contact him thru his Super-Topo link.
|
|
skinner_ab
Big Wall climber
Calgary, Alberta
|
|
|
May 20, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
|
Thanks Fritz, greatly appreciated! I'm surprised I didn't run into him with all the climbing he did in Canada. In the early-mid 70's climbers were a sparse commodity here. In fact we tried counting all the climbers in Calgary once, and at the time and came up with "20". Needless to say, if you ran into another climber, chances were very good that you knew them.
Did you do any climbing in Alberta Fritz?
|
|
Bschmitz
Ice climber
mountain view
|
|
|
May 20, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
|
Dane Burns is still climbing well: Spent a couple days with him up in Canada last season. CLimbed the weeping wall and polar circus with him. Amazing that the guy who did the 2nd ascent of slipstream is still getting after it!!!!! Plus he makes some awsome mods!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
May 21, 2010 - 12:35am PT
|
Skinner-AB: I did make trips to Alberta and the Bugs for climbing, twice a year from Moscow Idaho: 1974-1980. However we were just part of the crowd. I had good times, interesting climbing, skiing, and drinking.
Unfortunately, some of my early photos have vanished from this thread, due to re-organizing my Photobucket photos.
I first hit Banff for waterfall climbing in early 1974.
We had never climbed frozen waterfalls, but knew Banff area had a concentration of waterfall climbing.
Chris & I checked into the Mount Royal?? and next morning drove around looking for the rumored frozen waterfalls. We soon spied Cascade Couloir and Rogan’s Gulley. The decision was, try Rogan’s immediately and save the impressive Cascade, until the end of the trip.
I974 Fritz on Cascade Couilor. Note: Jensen pack, Chouinard bamboo axe and wood alpine hammer, Dachstein mitts, Ultimate helmet, Chouinard crampons, and Galibier leather double-boots.
That afternoon, we climbed Cascade, and also met Dane Burns and his climbing buddy Gwain Oka. Later on, my most severe waterfall was Louise Falls, which was a three-winter project, before I finally got up the icicle pitch.
Other than that: the Alberta climbing was doing "trade routes."
I reported the most interesting, and the most nearly fatal in this thread.
Climbing the Chouinard route on Mt. Fay in 1978.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=977914&msg=1101473#msg1101473
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
May 21, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
|
I wish more of the guys were still alive to tell their own stories as my perspective is pretty narrow and limited.
But a couple of comments. If you think Snargs were bad try steel conduit!
Not for pro mind you but for rapping.
We climbed all sorts of stuff, Carlsberg, Borgeau and Pilsner with Snargs. They allowed me to make a big jump in my climbing at the time. They were actual pro (not that anyone ever dared fall) and "easy" to place. Real bitch for the 2nd to chop out though.
I never did buy into the conduit. Now we do more with less, using v threads, super fast screws and radical curved tools. No way to really appreciate the ease of and added safety we enjoy now on ice unless you were there in the beginning.
In '73 Cascade was still a difficult climb for us with a alpine hammer, a short piolet and Salewa screws or the odd wart hog if the ice was warm enough to take one.
Things changed very quickly every season after that. The first Terro's I saw were the Burgess Twin's. From Porter, Bugs and the Burgess Twins on Polar Circus. Gotta remember that the 2nd ascent by Laurie Skreslet and his gang that same week iirc was a "free ascent". No aid required and everyone using pretty much the same gear.
No question Bugs was pushing everyone mentally and physically though locally and in his writings.
So the terro aid techniques that Bugs wrote about really were dead by the time the article saw print.
Can you imagine such a small community and just how bad the communication really was back then?
Pays to remember that it could be years and generally no less than a full season (6 months) before any North American climbing news hit a publication. Mountain Magazine was really the only international publication then.
I know I was quite surprised to have found the picture of Jeff and George Lowe aiding the ice cliff on Temple was several years old before it made the cover of Mtn Magazine. State of the art was well ahead of what you see in the climbing magazines back then. That same season (when the pic was published) Temple got two or three new routes all free through the ice cliff.
There were some really good alpine climbers in Canada at the time..late '70s and early '80s. John Lauchlan, Jim Elzinga, Kevin Doyle, Barry Blanchard, James Blench, Albi Sole, Dwayne Congdon come to mind off hand as well as the token American's, Carlos Buhler, Gregg Cronn and Gary Silver a few among many climbing from Spokane or farther south of the border in Colorado, California or Montana and making weekend trips north or just living in Canada at the time.
Some of the names you'll recognize others you won't I suspect. But one of the seasons and teams that still inspires me is Lauchlan's and Congdon's Chamonix season in '79 iirc. Early and very fast ascents of the MacIntyre/Colton, the Ginat and a hand full of others. Same climbs Ueli Steck got so much milage out of by soloing this year (Ginat) and last (M-C). Obviously hard* climbs with heady reputations even today. Handful of American's in Chamonix in those years doing similar stuff but not many and most still around post here at ST today.
They had their own amazing season in '77 iirc? Dru Coulior, le Droites, Pilar de Angle, Eiger Direct among others.
Freeing Nemesis, Weeping Pillar and other plums fell to those same Canadians. It wasn't long before the technical end of simple vertical ice would be met and M-climbing was about to take off in a big way.
Climbs in Chamonix that any of the Canadians listed could have just as easily as John and Duane did, was my take on it having been around many of them. In the climbing magazines at the time any number of outsiders were the first to take credit in the publications for freeing some of the early water fall test pieces. And now the history is so blurred and many of the original players dead so we'll never know what really did happen and when.
But I have no doubt many of the early ice climbs were first freed by the Canadians, no matter who was given the guide book credit.
An after thought, since Brian mentioned it. My first recollections of doing Polar Circus was argueing about how much gear we should take. Some very good and very experienced climbers wanted to take haul bags in '79.
I didn't think so and to get more beta soloed to the upper pillars one after noon in late Nov. and decided a two day trip was in order. When we again hit the bivy cave by mid day in Jan with over night gear I knew then I had blown i that estimation.
I came back again a month or so later and did an early one day ascent. A lot changed in just a couple of seasons '79/'81.
Now most spend a 1/2 day on the climb. I climbed it this winter as a rope team faster than I have soloed it just a few years ago. Things really have changed.
Gear and clothing for a 1.5 day, almost zero beta, ascent 1980
Gear and clothing for a 5.5 hr, 30 years of beta, ascent in 2010
|
|
ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
|
|
|
May 21, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
|
Fritz, I love that photo! That was the exact setup I had, same boots, same crampons, even the same hammer (that I used to use for extracting nuts), same Dachstein mitts. The only difference was I had the fiberglass axe and an orange Joe Brown helmet.
|
|
skinner_ab
Big Wall climber
Calgary, Alberta
|
|
|
May 22, 2010 - 04:48am PT
|
Wow.. I never imagined I'd see photo's, stories, and names from my era and connected with routes in my own backyard here on ST.
I have lots of comments on the last posts by Fritz and RDB, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow evening as it's 2:30 AM here and I am going climbing in 3 hours. Great stuff guys!
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
|
A picture of Fred at 86 years old (last year) and a piolet in the back round seem appropriate.
And interesting the tool he chooses from the wall for a tight shot.
more here:
http://www.rodmarphoto.com/category/portraits/
Yvon Chouinard 2 years ago at 70.
|
|
marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
|
Check out Fred´s 2¨ x 4¨ on a sling! You don´t see that on the rack very often!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 11:39am PT
|
Reached straight for the Mountain Technology axe, if I am not mistaken!?!
|
|
RDB
Social climber
way out there
|
|
|
May 28, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
|
Hey thought this should go here as well. An email answer I got this morning from a querry I sent months ago about new Galiber Super Guides..35 to 50 in half sizes as well :) If I only knew my metric size for sure...next time I am in France!
Contact Chaussure Paraboot [mailto:contact@chaussure-paraboot.com]
Envoyé : vendredi 16 avril 2010 15:57
Ŕ : s.noussan@paraboot.com
Objet : TR: Message du site Internet Richard-Pontvert Paraboot
Dear Sir,
It is possible to order directly from us against payment in advance by bank transfer.
The amount is 263.38 € + 37.10 € air parcel post shipping charges = 300.48 €
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
|
Thanks for the Galibier update, Dane! Refurbishing my old pair has just never been worth it once the interior leather gave out. Plastic boots are simply not as good on rock despite the weight savings, IMO.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
|
Ice bump!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2010 - 11:36am PT
|
Spring gully ice Bump!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2010 - 10:28am PT
|
Bump for Gordon!
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
|
Looking way back at the beginning of this and the catalog with the Annapurna Glasses I think that is BJ or Bill Johnson wearing them. BJ and Tony Jessen were early surfing buddies of Yvon and worked at the Skunk Works in Ventura for many years.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
|
chouinard tried to invent and market his own science of mountaineering. he's a clothes shark at heart and his surf side is much heavier.
piolet gourmet s'il vous plaît? just jab the friggin' ice with the point.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2010 - 11:28am PT
|
Tis' the season for jolly tinkering!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
|
And Ice on the Brain!
Man, this is one killer good thread!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
|
Big frosty bump!
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
|
Hello Gordon, Jack and Rick. I just came across this site and thread and you guys have brought up some great memories. I consider myself a retired alpinist, although my twelve year old twins have dicovered climbing on their own so I may have to get off the couch. I never really got out of climbing until about 1999. We found we were to have twins and my wife wanted me to cool it so I did. My last season in the alps was 79'. After surviving a massive avalanche on the Grand Central Couloir that summer and generally bad conditions in the icefields, I felt compelled to go back to the alps. Went direct to Grindelwald with Larry Bruce to wait for the Nordwand to come in. The highlight of the trip was living in the hayloft of a barn at the alpiglen. In return for harvesting potatos, churning butter and making cheese we were given the hayloft and three squares plus beer. Finally it came in and we had success in somewhat wintery conditions in late october. Made it to Denali for the Cassin and a ski of the Messner via the West Butt. We had some success but it was basically a miserable trip. I had no problem with altitude but felt very uncomfortable and really stretched the whole time. Lots of storms and souls lost. That was 1980. I pretty much dialed back the serious stuff and went cragging and waterfall climbing till 1986 when I got off the couch and started my Himalayan phase. That's it for now. I've got more to add to the Dru Couloir story and also looking for Joel Coquienot. We did a new variant on the Eckpfeiler in 78' and some verdon and calanques time and then lost touch. I did see Stevie Haston on Ama Dablam NF in 91' and have seen Trover at Snowbird.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
|
On the bivy at the Grand Montets with Jack before the Dru Couloir I met Georges Bettembourg. Turns out his uncle was Charlet or someone in the family. Georges got me a pair of Gabbarou Cascades for a family discount. The tools were beautiful, balanced and very well made. I tried them on a couple of climbs and they were ok but did not live up to their namesake; cascade. So after telling Georges he took me to the foundry. I met the old man and explained the issues. "Pas de problem" he says and reshaped it to my specs then and there. The tool was awesome! You could do pullups in horizontal cracks with hardly any deformation. It was strong and incredible sur les glaces. From then on on I used the Gabbarou and a terror exclusively for ice and mixed. The interesting thing is that the Gab was stiff and almost brittle feeling while the terror felt sort of soft and maleable. Between the two, for me it was the perfect combo. Georges grandfather made tomme de savoie and cured it in a cave near the col de montets. We used to go up there with bread and wine and visit grandad after climbs. Georges was killed hunting crystals under the Droites.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Steve,
Welcome and great to have you here! We look forward to a treasure trove of stories from a storied career. Magical how folks are able to reconnect on ST, after decades: 44 years in our case.
This will whet your appetite and encourage you to relate some of your adventures. Here is a link to Gordon's account of his and Tobin's first ascent on the Grand Jorasses in September of 1977-- which is still considered today one of the hardest mixed routes in the range. Hats off to Gordon, it's one of the best climbing tales ever.
http://www.smc.org.uk/Downloads/LitPrize2008.pdf
Rick
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
|
Off the icy couch bump.
|
|
Larry Ware
Trad climber
Leysin, Switzerland
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
|
Dear Wee Gordon,
It has been too long a while since last we shared a rope.It was fun reading your "works". Why such a prolonged silence??
I am still in Leysin though may soon be emigrating to Chamonix. The battered body still seems to come alive on the rock though I give it far less chances to do so these days.
Do you remember the Carpentier on the Blatiére? The whole route has disappeared now. As I recall, the rock was a tad hollow.
ISM struggles on. The Vag dried up. College failed. I retired.
Martine sends her best.
Larry
|
|
Larry Ware
Trad climber
Leysin, Switzerland
|
|
|
Jun 22, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
|
Thanks Steve for the Dougal pictures. I showed Allan around when he was over two years ago. The interview with Annie was on my balcony. I hope he can fulfil his dream and put together his film on the Vag climbers. The sixties and seventies and well into the eighties were amazing times in Leysin. From John Harlin to Pat Littlejohn, there is a lot of history. I am fortunate to have been a part of most of it.
|
|
Allen Hill
Social climber
CO.
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
|
Hi Larry. See you in Sept. I'll be in touch.
|
|
Allen Hill
Social climber
CO.
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
|
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
|
Can anyone confirm the origin of the screw pictured below? Nestor Superscrew perhaps? No manufacturer's mark that I can see.
This shot of the same screw appeared in the 1960 AAJ but I haven't been able to locate the point of reference.
|
|
DJMac
Big Wall climber
Bonedale, CO
|
|
|
Nov 14, 2011 - 10:56am PT
|
I think I'm having a flashback ...
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Nov 14, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
|
Steve, the ice screw is European (probably Austrian) and not a Nestor. The Nestor Super Screw was made in the very early 1970s and was supposed to be a drive-in. It seemed better at blasting away ice than offering safety...
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Nov 14, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
|
best thread on the Taco :)
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 15, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
|
Steve,
The threaded ice screw shows up in the 1961 REI catalog.
Named "Swiss Ice Screw Pitons"
Three sizes:
Eye Screw 6 1/2"
Short Ring Screw 5 1/2"
Long Ring Screw 7"
REI catalog shows picture of two screws.
The screw shown by Steve looks like the 5 1/2" version.
Item not shown in 1960 REI catalog.
Rock on! Marty
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2011 - 12:21am PT
|
Thanks Todd.
My recollection of the Superscrew didn't match this item very well.
Anybody have one for show and tell?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
|
I just heard about the Bozeman Ice Festival happening December 9- 11. Joe Josephson has been working hard at making this one especially choice and I will be bringing along lots of items from my own collection and some borrowed ones to present a historical timeline and show the evolution of the gear from items like the ones above to the present.
Jeff Lowe and Connie Self will be there so this really promises to be a stand out gathering. I have been doing an in depth biographical and historic interview with Jeff and will be continuing it while in Bozeman.
More on this stellar event will be forthcoming. Don't miss this one!
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
|
I'm going ice climbing in Teton Canyon tommorow. I'm using all my old stuff. I bet it still works after collecting dust since the mid nineties. I'll probably look into new boots though. But it'll be fun...terrors are what I'm used to. I think my last new tool was something made by BD. I did buy a new coated rope. Maybe I'll do a TR on geriatric ice climbing SS
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
|
Speaking of Chouinard & ice-climbing: back up-thread I had shared photos of Chouinard's U.S. made Wart-Hog and asked for background information. RDB & Doug Robinson, among others, shared some good information.
I finally found the page that has this Warthog, and Chouinard's US made screws: in the Chouinard/Great Pacific Ironworks 1975 catalog. Those products replaced the Salewa Wart-hog and screws, Chouinard had previously sold.
|
|
perswig
climber
|
|
|
Nov 19, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
|
Maybe I'll do a TR on geriatric ice climbing
Please do. Our early flirt with ice ended abruptly and conditions are less than favorable at the moment here in the NE.
Dale
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
|
Those Warthogs still look like some kind of sci-fi murder weapon...LOL
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
|
In 1970 a friend of mine took a 120 ft. fall on the Italian Route on Ben Nevis. His Wart Hog came out part way and bent in half but held the fall. My friend walked away with a few scratches.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
|
What the hell did you do with those things? Do you pound one straight into the ice(how satisfying)? Are the treads for getting them out?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2011 - 10:31pm PT
|
Pound in and screw out...or take a screamer! LOL
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
|
Mike M!
Indeed!
You did pound Warthogs straight into the ice!
A little "prep-work:" to create a somewhat smooth & un-fractured ice platform about 12" x 12", was considered good.
It was very satisfying, if----the ice wasn't too cold and brittle.
Then, the ice would "dinner-plate" and fracture into chunks that rained down on those below.
Of course if the ice was thin, the Warthog would "bottom-out" and either break, or fracture the ice above it.
Sometime in the late 1970's: Mountain Magazine ran an extensive test report on "ice-pitons & screws." Warthogs sucked bad in the tests.
As I recall: the Chouinard USA tubular screws had some bad reviews too.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
|
Pounding in a Wart Hog somehow never gave you that reasuring feel that you got from driving a chromoly steel piton into a perfect granite crack.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
|
Jim: Perhaps it was the lack of the "rising pitch" of the well placed pin.
I'm trying to recreate the sound of a "well-placed" Warthog??
Was it: "Clunk, clunk, clunk??"
Damn, they went in quick though, vs screwing in those fluccking Salewa screws,------and then discovering the screws would not insert again, until you melted the ice out of the core.
I really never believed that Scottish BS, about putting ice screws down your shirt to melt the cores---------until the fateful afternoon in 1974 on Cascade Couloir by Baniff. After that: the trickle of ice-water down my chest, from melting ice-screw cores, was just part of the significant suffering, that some called fun, during alpine or waterfall climbing.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Nov 20, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
|
Exactly.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
|
The aforemetioned link is:
bozemanicefestival.com
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
|
As well as bumping some memorable Jack Roberts material I have to pump up the Bozeman Ice Festival!!!
This year's 40th Anniversary of Ice Climbing in Hyalite event was amazing with perfect weather, good ice and great entertainment every night!
Three cheers for Joe Josephson and the Bozeman guides for putting on a first rate event indoors and out! Big thanks to the ongoing sponsors and supporters of this gathering!
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
Bumping the best of the best. This isn't a Thread it's an encyclopedia.
|
|
Hannes
Ice climber
London, UK
|
|
Does anyone happen to know when Chouinard/Camp stopped making the blue fibreglass shafted axes? I happened to find two of them in the university climbing club's gear locker, sadly they are pretty beaten up. A 60 and 55 cm, should have taken a photo.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
|
Those blue glass axes weren't in production for more than a few years because they broke with ease.
The ice tool collectors can likely give you a timeline from catalogs. I can't do so for that particular catalog set.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I used a blue shaft Chouinard Zero (my first decent axe for ice climbing) and the X-tools for years...dented the hammer is all, never an issue with busted tools other than that, and, I've never seen a busted blue shaft Zero or Piolet. They seemed pretty burly to me.
As near as I can figure, they came out with the blue shaft Zero around 79/80. Replaced by the X-tool versions in 83 or so.
Blue shaft Piolet from around the 83 timeframe through around 87.
X-tools bumped by the X-15 in 1990 or so? Made by Chouinard in blue, then black, then by Black Diamond. Blue shafted X-15 marked as Chouinard not super common.
I've always found the blue shafted Zeros and Piolets to be fairly stout tools. YMMV.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
Just a little bump for a good cause :)
Ice last week.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 10:31am PT
|
That's the stuff!
Nice ice Dane! Location?
I never broke my blue glass piolet but several friends had their axes snap just below the head anchoring plug at the first solid to cavity transition.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
Hey Steve, it is Carlsberg in Field BC..just out of Lake Louise. The consumate WI5 in the Canadian Rockies @ soft 3+ conditions last week.
Now that I think about it this needs a link here for a little "back then and now" :)
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/03/then-and-now.html
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
|
Done that tall cold one...just didn't recognize it!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Dane
Good to see you not just remembering the old climbs, but doing them!
Rick
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
Rick! You have a very good point about Dane still climbing some difficult ice, rather than just remembering past glories.
He has hardly changed since the 1970's.
We were (cluelessly) off to our Hayes Range adventure on Deborah & Hess.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Fritz-
Love that picture of the young Dane. It reminds me of this terrible, out of focus shot of Mike Graham,in the Gare de Lyon in Paris, taken the same year, 1976, with much the same gear.
We were on our way to Chamonix and we were surprised to meet another American climber headed there , the guy behind Mike. Anyone recognize him?
Rick
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
"In the Gare de Lyon in Paris". The same memories and pictures for 1978 as well. Part of the pilgramage back then. And even sweeter last winter going back because of the first trip. Thanks for the reminder Rick.
Hey Fritz! :) Haven't changed? Don't we all wish?! Rick knows better having met him for the first time at Jeff's BD party last Fall. It was a week after my neck disection and just prior to chemo and radiation. Now 50 pounds lighter, climbing the old classics again is a LOT easier!
But speaking of the old days...what studs these guys were!
Envers des Aiguille 1963, John Harlin, Tom Frost, Gary Hemming, Stewart Fulton.
"The heyday of the "wild ones" in the sixties. This group was credited with putting up many new routes in the Alps during that time, most significantly the first ascent of the south face of the Aiguille Du Fou (with John Harlin, Tom Frost and Gary Hemming) a smooth wall of sheer rock long deemed to be unclimbable."
And watching Jesse ratchet it up on the Dru again decades later brings real joy to my heart.
http://www.alpineexposures.com/blogs/chamonix-conditions/5916109-dru-north-couloir-direct
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Wow...fantastic shots!
Hey, isn't that Jesse guy climbing with BD's Stinger crampons? Uhh...aren't they stainless?
Ha ha...
Cheers, and, keep those photo's coming!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
|
The Alps is a great chapter in the upcoming Frost book!
Most folks have seen the AAJ and Summit articles about the 1963 season but this December 63 Sierra Club Bulletin is harder to find.
Thanks to Bill Amborn, here is Tom's account.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Steve,
Great find. The Pilier Derobe is still a highly respected route and was a great achievement for Frost and Harlin. Truly the hard way back to Chamonix from Courmayeur!
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
this thread continues to put a smile on my face..year after year.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
Yes it is one of the best threads. That pitch over the final ice bulge on the Dru Couloir Direct is the most difficult alpine ice pitch I have ever done. We retreated from just above it on much easier ground due to circumstances beyond my control. Jack Roberts, Mugs Stump, Randy Trover and me. Rick and Tobin went back the following week and did the route. It was my first alpine mixed climb in the Mt Blanc. and worthy of a write up someday. Quite an epic we had.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2012 - 10:57am PT
|
We're all ears brother!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
|
Bump for a story on a wintry night...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
|
Classic Bump!
|
|
ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
|
Going to re-bump!
This thread probably has more pictures of my early climbing heroes than any. I especially like the pics of "Drunken Ferguson":-)
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
|
blimp - in conjunction with Jim's Ouray thread
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
|
A thread that should never be out of sight :)
Jeff Steet on modern Snoqualmie ice
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
|
Hello... new here and very please to see so good climbers.
I met Steve Brewer and Mark Richey in 78... they climbed Chacraraju East... and our group the West... Bouchard/Meunier route.
Please permit me a photo for all you..
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
|
Bienvenidos Carlos!
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2013 - 05:24am PT
|
Thanks, Steve... I´ll try to collaborate from the old Europe... with old and not so ones photos and histories of climbing activities.
The stuff in the above photos was the one of the years... wooden and plastic iceaxes Stubai Nanga Parbat... salewa crampons and 50m. 9mm. single rope.
We found a rock peg from Bouchard/Meunier first climb... and made two bivouacs. Fantastic climb and hard in those years.
To congratulate Rick A... for the first ascent direct Dru couloir.
I tried in winter 91... but too hard for us... we retreated in the rock section.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
|
Great stuff, thank you!
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
|
Lowe pick came much later. That is a very late model Chacal...post '82 and near the end of production. The two holes in the handle and the black rubber shaft insulation all are indicators. The two, brass tube lined holes in the handle (one for a leash the other for an umbilical) the most clear indicators of age. A quick look through a Mountain Magazine adn Simond ad's campaign will give you a better idea of the exact age. But I know Climb High didn't import the 2 hole version until the Barracuda (adze version) showed up.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
|
Thanks for the dating Dane.
I am curious if the pick shape or detailing changed much by the time mine came out.
Do you have an early one?
Off to the Mountain mags otherwise.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
|
I have earlier ones but not the first generation red handled and double spike one. I kept upgrading as the newest models were producted. I never appreciated the dbl spike (but would now as I would a Roosterheads dbl spike) and the full black rubber shafts and dbl holes were a good improvemt IMO. I still have my last pair and a couple of spares of differing lengths plus an axe. Same pair Simond gave away at the '79 Resembalance.
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Feb 24, 2013 - 06:52am PT
|
Stubai Nanga Parbat 1973. (handle modified)
Charlet Moser G 1975.
Peck Terrordactyl 1977.
B.D. Black Prophet 1996 ??? not sure. I owned years before de B.P. in black straight handle.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
|
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
|
October Sierra ice gully bump
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
|
Runnel Bump...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
|
Anyone know of or have access to a good classic shot of 60s/70s tools in action on Ben Nevis or Cairngorms in winter? I am aware of Yvon's book, of course but am looking in support of another fantastic book in progress.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2014 - 11:14am PT
|
Tis' the Season...
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
|
60 degrees here all last week. Hoping the temps are colder on the Midi next ;-)
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
|
Have a fantastic trip Dane!
I hope the ice is plentiful or come back and climb in the northeast where the phatness is everywhere I suspect and we are the only ones that are enjoying it besides the powderhounds.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
|
So how did it go Dane?
Sounds like it was a very good year for ice routes.
|
|
Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
|
White Xmas bump.
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2015 - 05:31am PT
|
In the "unknown" Spain (Sierra de Gredos)... very hard climbs (as scottish ones)... 1977/80 years; with terrordactyl ice axe and whillans harness, nice pullovers and crampon straps.
Actually WI5.
|
|
scooter
climber
fist clamp
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2015 - 05:44am PT
|
I heard Erik Sloan is trying to reproduce this catalog.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2015 - 07:06am PT
|
Simond chacal was my go to tool in the 80's We never seemed to have matched pairs back then. i climbed with the Chacal, a humming bird and a 60cm chiounard ax w/ the blue fiberglass handel. looks like the Hummingbird is in my right hand so the Chacal most likly in my left.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2015 - 07:19am PT
|
I also had a Cassin Anteres twords the end of the eightys. that was Chacal knock off but the pick was not as good. Not shure what my 2nd tool is in this shot but definatly the Chacal in my left hand.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2015 - 07:24am PT
|
The pick on the simond chacal was held in place by the one big bolt and 2 hardware store rolled pins. Several times over the years those pins broke leaving your pick wobbleing all over the place. It was a bit disconcerting to say the least.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
|
Tis the Season...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
|
The ice back east must be epic this season.
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
|
Steve! Thanks again for creating this fine thread.
Even though those greedy arseholes at Photobucket have caused a lot of the historic photos on it to be lost, it's still great reading for any climber historian, or a climber looking for some great stories.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 05:44am PT
|
I love my new BD Snaggletooth crampons.
But, those old Chouinard rigid crampons work better for French technique on neve and alpine ice because of the vertical points under the arch that we don’t enjoy with the new style crampons - awesome as they are. It’s fun to play around with those old style crampons on glacier ice to see what they do in their element.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
|
The ice back east must be epic this season.
Epic in a bad way?
Late coming in (again). Warm temp's prior to xmas had nearly no ice except up high (although the Black Dike was gettin' done a bunch).
Then, way too cold.
Then, way too warm (again).
Too warm then too cold. Not good for building big, climbable ice flows.
(Was in Maine over the xmas/new years holidaze...left the ice tools at home...froze my butt off skiing instead).
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
|
Three Burrs syndrome...
The notion of slipping out of a crampon while flatfooting is simply horrific!
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
|
ya, the ice sucks here. omega was done yesterday and today. we had the lake to ourselfs. two of our friends were way left of us...
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
|
Ice daggers! When ice climbers were REAL MEN.
Warthogs were great for cleaning ice out of screws but useless as pro
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
|
Ap! Re your mention! Warthogs were great for cleaning ice out of screws but useless as pro
I loved Warthogs back in the 1970's, because I could be in a panic-shituation & just pound them into the ice, vs having to calmly screw in a screw. And of course, you remember the problem with having to stick those 70's Salewa ice-screws down your shirt to melt the ice-core out of them, if they were too cold to poke the ice out of them with a tool?
Mountain Magazine published a fairly comprehensive ice-screw/warthog test around 1978. It proved that Warthogs would not hold much of a fall, even if correctly placed in solid water ice. After that, Salewa & Chouinard quit selling Warthogs.
Sigh. I'm sure there's still a market for them.
My Salewa Warthog on the Chouinard Route, N. Face Mt. Fay in August 1978.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2018 - 06:21pm PT
|
I liked Snargs for that very situation.
Something to ease the mind while you got something better...
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
|
Steve: I always thought you just planted your Chouinard ice axe for security, while you pounded in a Warthog. A friend with good camera gear took this photo of me on a waterfall up Icicle Creek, near Leavenworth WA, late winter 1974.
It was an easy lead, so I didn't place much pro, but then again, it was 1974, and I was so much younger then.
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2018 - 10:15am PT
|
Sweet! Ouray end of next month for me. Woot!
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
|
Snarg placed in frozen turf on FA of A Beer Or A Beer 1985??
|
|
norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
|
A snarg story for you. In the late 70’s I worked at Teton Mountaineering in Jackson. One day Mike Lowe came in with a new pound in tube for ice pro to show us. He left one with us to try. Being the eager young gun I took it out as my secret weapon next time I went to climb ice. Winter in the Tetons used to be cold, really cold, and of course I thought that was the best time to climb ice. I pounded the sh#t out of that tube thinking how great it was to not have to use two hands to screw in a salewa screw. Great until a chunk about half the size of a refridgerator exploded around that tube.
Figurered it would be better in warmer conditions so tried it on the next route. It went in like a breeze and I felt pretty crafty.
Trouble was they had a flare to the tube, wider at the back to ease cleaning the core, but it caused the tube to back it self our slowly so by the time I was 15 feet above it it was half way out and still oozing out. These were the smooth sided prototype before the snarg had threads.
I later put it in a vice to squeeze it into a parallel tube and used it somewhere in South America for a rappel anchor never to be seen again.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
|
they either fixed themslefs permanently or the fell out when you climbed past them. I have a few that I use to hold the windows open in the cabin....
Winter of 81-82 in Jackson Hole it was routinly 44 to 56 below farenheight.. saw cars with frozen radiators... gave up on my car for about 3 weeks. the day it finally went above freezeing in febuary a bunch of us from the Richmond Hotel flop house (right across the street from the Outlaw Motel) were out in the parking lot with camp stoves under our oil pans trying to get our rigs started... It was so cold that you could burn your lungs and your whisky could freeze solid just walking the 2 blocks home from the buss stop. Missed the last buss back from the village a few times (waylaid at the Moose) and almost froze to death hitching home after midnight...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
|
YOW! Good case for driving a VW BITD even with little chance of heat on the inside. Even gas freezes eventually. LOL
That was the weird thing about Snargs, easy in but not so easy out with those fine threads. Lowe even made one with no threads at all for placing vertically in back of column tops.
The second generation fat ones definitely worked better. Best not to fall...I remember getting a call from Scott Decapio after his partner ripped three screws in late season Banff ice stopping just short of the ground. "Tell your partner that he's a lucky man, but he already knows that".
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
|
Mountain Technology WartHog Turf Screw
https://www.needlesports.com/4131/products/mountain-technology-warthog-turf-screw.aspx
"Just about the only thing for frozen turf belays. Drive in, screw out.
The Warthog was originally designed as an ice screw but there are much better ice screws available these days and it is no longer recommended for this purpose. However they are still a very useful part of the winter climber's armoury as they are one of the few devices suitable for providing protection in frozen turf.
Warthogs should be considered as marginal equipment to be used only when there is no other option. Due to the immeasurable nature of the matrix they are placed in the best that can be said about them is that they are not as safe as most other forms of protection but that they can be safer than no protection at all.
Obviously if a rock or solid ice belay is available then use it, don't rely on a marginal frozen turf belay. However, there may be occasions when there is no rock or solid ice belay available, a typical example might be at the top of a climb where, having overcome a difficult cornice, you are faced with a vast sloping or flat area of solidly frozen but featureless terrain with nothing obvious to belay to at all. Our recommendation would be to go as far back from the edge as you can, if possible getting over the far side of any slight hump you can find. Drive the point and shaft of Warthog vertically into solidly frozen turf by hitting it with an ice hammer until the base of the eye is in contact with the ground. Use two Warthogs if possible, spaced at least one metre apart and one on each rope, and also back everything up with anything else you have to hand such as ice hooks and the pick of your ice axe or hammer. Take a sitting stance between the Warthog(s) and the edge of the cliff, but well back from any cornice, and improve the stance by digging a hole in the snow to brace your feet against if possible. Clip your rope(s) into the Warthog(s) and other devices forming the belay using karabiners and clove hitches and make sure that the tension on all aspects of the belay is as equal as possible. Finally, keep the rope to your climbing partner tight at all times and instruct them not to fall off under any circumstances!
For belays and running belays mid route, as much of the above as is possible should be applied and any possible more solid runner placement above the Warthog should be utilised as soon as it is encountered.
To remove the Warthog from frozen turf, insert the pick of your ice axe through the eye and use it to turn the Warthog anti-clockwise to loosen it, then lift it out.
After use, store in a dry place where it will not go rusty. Warthogs are made of high quality steel and should last you many years of winter climbing as long as you don't try and hammer them into rock, as you will probably bend the point. We suggest retiring them after ten years, or sooner if they show signs of damage that is more than cosmetic."
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Oct 24, 2018 - 09:48am PT
|
Bump.
Obscurity to the front page once again, just like THAT!
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 24, 2018 - 10:06am PT
|
Thanks mouse...the iceman cometh..
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2018 - 01:09am PT
|
I have a bunch of vintage ice gear that will get shipped out to Neptune or go on Ebay shortly.
Much of it classic Choiunard, bamboo piolets (single teeth, dbl teeth and Zeros) and hickory alpine hammers of various vintages, plus all the Simond pictured previous and a few pairs of Terros. Also have most of the fiberglass/carbon Chouinard tools up to the replaceable picks.
If you are looking for something in particular, name the tool, and make me a reasonable offer.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2018 - 10:17am PT
|
I would be interested in the black Terrordactyl with adze and possibly one of the hammers. Do you have a Nester Superscrew that you are willing to part with?
Perhaps a visit to take a look at your stash?
|
|
Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
|
Steve, your quest for a Nester SuperScrew is over. Yours to p/u next time thru Bozeman.My Nesters received little use, displaced lottsa ice and were pos, not to mention hell on biners.
Ahh, the Warthog. Never loved them but beat the crap outta a few... in the family pic, the 4th down (black short and stubby) is a Korean knock-off. I laughed so hard when the climber showed it to me, he gave me the little fathog.
this pic shows how quickly warthogs fell from grace, beat ones and a shiney galvanized unused one...
these Salewa's were trustworthy. Hard as hell to screw in, the torque induced groans would echo the couloirs, but I never saw one break. The long one proved to be the most valuable screw on Denali in 71' and Hunter South Ridge in 73'. It was nice when Salewa added slots.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2018 - 08:41am PT
|
Hey Steve. I'm in Boise these days...long drive.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2018 - 03:24pm PT
|
Dane- What sort of shape is the black Terror in?
I just sent you an email with an address from 2014. Let me know if it got through.
Cheers
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Oct 30, 2018 - 03:50pm PT
|
Anybody keep a warthog or two for frozen turf?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
|
Happy Cowboy and RDB- Please email me at scgrossman (at) msn (.) com
Cheers
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
|
I have a black Terror in good condition. Was my 2nd tool for big north walls.
You can really wail on pins with it. I would part with it
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
|
I have a mint Terror hammer AP and am looking for a nice specimen of the version with an adze.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
|
No got adze. Sorry
This thread sure has a lot of sh**ty gear
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 17, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
|
No lack of desire to make that shizzle sizzle though...
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
RDB that Simiond Chakal was the best climbing tool of that era INMOP.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 02:21pm PT
|
The Simond Chacal was a good tool.
The last Chouinard axe.
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 03:58pm PT
|
Possibly an early production, 55cm ash shaft, small ferrule (shown in 1970 flyer), short neck, beefy head and pick[photo[photoid=557561]id=557560][photoid=557564]
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 04:02pm PT
|
[photoid=557566]
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 04:03pm PT
|
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 05:44pm PT
|
Hey Jay! Took me a while to put that together :) Really nice axe! Early with a C-F roll mark for sure. Ash shafts were made and sold in Europe the entire time Chouinard was having his tools made. When you see a lot of the wooden/laminate axes (in any variation) it is pretty obvious they are all hand made and some of the metal smiths were better (more delicate) than others.
I work metal by hand myself. And I'd bet the heavier tools (ash handles) were a novice smith's effort. That said I have never seen a straight pick on a Chouinard Interalp tool. Happens when you are hammering the pick out on an anvil.
But on a 2nd look I think you are spot on got to be a very, very early Chouinard axe. Earliest one I have seen. Wonder if it was first shipment, first year production here? Do you know its history?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2019 - 06:18pm PT
|
Nicola Codega (who founded CAMP) and his sons did some fine work for Chouinard Equipment which is why there is one of their piolets in the Smithsonian for its craftsmanship, aesthetic and design merits. I bet Yvon is very proud of that and I know Tom Frost was.
Chouinard Equipment catalog 1972
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 07:50pm PT
|
The design is classic no doubt. But craftmanship for the 7 or so years the Chouinard Piolets were built was spotty IMO. I have the chance to look at 3 dozen or so bamboo, rexilon and ash shafted Chouinard piolets. That is not a lot of them but may be enough to get an idea on build quality. As a whole the hand forging on the heads runs from exceptional to rather dismal. Final finishing was always good. It covered a good number of mistakes. My take is the ash handled tools were the best for fit and finish. Never seen an ash handle enhanced by filler. Most of the bamboo tools have some filler on the head tangs. I suspect the laminations on the bamboo were more difficult to fit/deal with than good solid ash.
Even the bad ones were pretty. The good ones striking in design and build quality for a tool meant to be used. Sad most of those hand skills are long gone. Neat to see Bhend in Grindlewald still making axes in the old fashioned way.
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-ice-axe-that-glows-bhend.html
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2019 - 07:58pm PT
|
As woodworker myself, it would definitely be easier to work with a solid hardwood shaft than laminated bamboo.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 10:25pm PT
|
As woodworker myself, it would definitely be easier to work with a solid hardwood shaft than laminated bamboo.
I aver that bamboo is more stable in the shrinkage department.
I can also attest that bamboo plywood rapidly shrinks yer wallet! 🤡
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2019 - 10:41pm PT
|
I aver that bamboo is more stable in the shrinkage department.
I can also attest that bamboo plywood rapidly shrinks yer wallet!
Problem now 40 years on is the laminated bamboo is falling apart as the glue is releasing. It has also be susceptible to moisture absorption at the metal joints and in the lamination itself. Working laminated bamboo I suspect was a bit of a bitch when layers blew apart fitting that tangs at the head. Which is why we always saw a good bit of wood putty used to fill the gaps there.
Shaft material price is the reason I think it was the rookie's @ Camp/Interalp that built the ash handled tools. Bamboo went to the best in the shop.
Ha ha. We fell all over ourselves trying to make the ID.
got a chuckle from that Tar...I just did the same a few minutes ago!
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2019 - 11:03am PT
|
Going through some old photos. 1973 I think, and likely posted prior some time back. Here all decked out in wool with piolet and alpine hammer. Memorable because the sun had just gone down and temps were dropping to eventually hit -40C that night. We had yet to get down and had no clue exactly how we were to accomplish that. Thankfully it turned out easier/shorter than expected.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2019 - 11:32am PT
|
Just looked at Jay's axe again a few posts back. Have to wonder just how old it is as far as Chouinard production goes. Is Doug Robinson around to look at it?
I am thinking one of the very first production piolets.
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
|
I’m curious as well regarding that question. Fritz has posted images of a beautiful ash shafted 55 which shows the same smaller diameter ferrule with tapered wood above. Also the original ‘70 Flyer depicts what appears to be an ash 55 with the same.
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2019 - 03:20pm PT
|
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2019 - 03:32pm PT
|
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2019 - 01:49pm PT
|
Just wanted to add, this ash 55cm came to me from SoCal in pretty much “fresh from the tool shed” condition, with no attempt to clean it up. Rust and dirt had been there awhile. I finally decided to see what it actually might look like under the crud.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:08pm PT
|
Neat axe Jay. The rounded bottom on the teeth is a big deal for durability. Even more so if you get the pick hot cutting in the teeth.
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2019 - 02:59pm PT
|
Yes, a rounded structure is key wherever stress could cause a fracture. What I’m usually doing for a living when not distracted by aging piolets.
[photoid=557776]
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2019 - 03:01pm PT
|
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2019 - 12:15am PT
|
;-)
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 11:28am PT
|
I saw the thread mentioning Twight's interview via pod cast. Knowing Mark some I found it entertaining.
Also reminded me of a conversation ha and I had prior to his last Denali climb (CZD) and him retiring. Tool trivia to follow.
At the time bent shafted tools were not all that common. They had easy access to BD tools at the time and I wondered/asked what Mark was taking for tools. At the time I really didn't think a bent shaft tool was gonna be all that great on the upper plod of the Cassin and much of the snow climbing. Mark seemingly agreed and took one of each a straight and a bent shaft. House took a pair of the then "new" bent shafted Cobras.
These were the tools Mark used on the CZD. Funny now when guys use Nomics to get up the Cassin which has a lot less technical climbing than the CZD. And ski poles are now a common bit of added kit for the upper Cassin.
The older Cobra and straight shaft tools are now obsolete for the most part. As are wrist slings. And the new Cobra or Petzl Quark not all that "radical" these days but common tools seen on any technical mtn route.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 11:38am PT
|
Bob Carmichael, back in the early 90s, made a pretty cool film about Duncan Ferguson climbing Bridalveil in Telluride.
He was using Black Prophets and Mono points. Damn did he ever look smooth!
It's the first time I saw an ice climber just placing their feet, rather than kicking.
Sadly, it's not available on YouTube or anywhere else. At some point I'm going to get a hold of Bob and see if he can come up with it.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
|
Neat stuff Tar. Some guys were just ahead of the curve. Took me a long time to get on fragile ice. Ice that in turn required delicate foot and tool placements or you'd simply knock every thing down.
A technique, once learned for both hands and feet (easier yet with modern gear) allows one to climb ice a lot more like you climb rock. I'd sure like to see that film and some of Jello's old stuff again too.
|
|
pacyew
Social climber
Fall City WA
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 04:41pm PT
|
On my own early (?) ash handled 55 cm Piolet the shaft tapers slightly as it enters the smaller diameter ferrule (smaller than the later production). Fritz’s beautiful specimen shows this tapered shaft as does dee dee’s and the image of the Piolet from the 1970 Chouinard brouchure.
Also, my own ash 55 shows no evidence of a cross pin in the ferrule. It’s my guess that Fritz’s would show that same lack. (?).
The forth ash 55cm on this forum came from Wayne Merry, showing only the head. Would love to see the rest of it.
Sadly, many of the images on this and other threads are already gone.
Also, this has me curious about the early 70cm Hickory Piolets described in the ‘70 Brochure. I wonder, did they also have the smaller ferrule?
Doug Robinson, Fritz, Steve Grossman, Dane????
Hope to visit again with you all, somewhere down the road.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 632 of total 632 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!