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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 16, 2007 - 11:08am PT
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John asked: "What's the shiznit hand drill these days?
Does Deucy still make his system? I though his was pretty tight..."
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I put Johns question here cause that question was buried below many megapixels of Jpegs on the Hurricane Hand Drill thread where I posted the manuel, which would pretty much eliminante our dial up bros from even seeing the question below all that stuff.
-So-
What is the current schizzel? The Hurricane was one of the best designed drills in the world for climbers. It appears they no longer even make them. Despite the proliferation of awesome power drills, people still need hand drills.
BTW, they are signifigantly lighter:-)
Regards
Bill
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Edited to add: welcome John: BTW that crack pic you asked about was of Trout Creek, Elcapinyoass got it right.
Werner: I didn't forget Merry's request from the other day. Little time is needed is all.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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Thanx couchmaster - that other thread was pretty slow to load.
I sold my old Rawl hand system a while ago...don't even know what's around these days.
Another weird question I have is what size hand bit do you use for 3/8"?
I used to use a slightly smaller bit than a 3/8" because the hole ends up being a little wider due to the inevitable wobble of the hand drilling process. It's been a while and I just can't remember the exact size bit I used....
Oh yeah, who made that Hurricane Drill anyway?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 16, 2007 - 01:38pm PT
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I'm liking the Petzl. No wrenches. I got a nice shorty bit for it too, so it's lower profile and easier for me to hit my target. It bounces, so you need to be careful that you don't pinch your hand in the bounce.
Edit...Their's also a hole in the handle that you can stick the bit in so that it's 1/2 the length so that you can have it on your harness w/ less dangle or so that it fits all the way into your bolt bag.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Petzl Rocpecs are very light, super quick & easy to change bits, and are fairly short overall length. Disadvantages are that you can only use SDS bits (a lot of Valley folks like metal drilling bits in Hurricanes with the right collet), and that the spring-loaded locking mechanism tends to pinch your hand (no prob with gloves, or you can wrap a piece of tape around the junction, but that hugely slows down drill bit change-outs). They are pretty stubby for guys with large hands. Used to be $35 for the Petzl but the price is now up to $60.
Standard 3/8" SDS bits are 3/8" at the tip but less than that along the shaft, so no problems with wide holes or drill binding (same design for other sizes like 1/4"). No more drill bits breaking right when you're nearly done with the hole. Once the flanges on the edge of the tip start wearing down, the hole will start getting smaller and you'll notice that it's harder to pound in a bolt - but most people hit hard enough to break the bit tips before that becomes a problem.
Used to only use the Hurricane, then used a Petzl as a backup to the Hurricane (ususally with 1/4" bit), then switched to 2 Petzls, one with 3/8, one with 1/4. Light, simple, no wrenches.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 16, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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I've gone from the old RAWL, to the Pica (with the allen screws),
to the Hurricane (ground my own bits), to the Petzel.
I'm thinking of going back to the RAWL because you can put a
ratchet wrench on the thing and bang away while using the wrench
to crank through the hole. But since I'd have to go back to
grinding my own bits, I think I'll stay with the Pecker with
easy-to-find SDS bits. Plus, the SDS moves back and forth, which
seems to do good stuff with the roto hammers. My complaints with
the Pecker are that the same as Greg's, it's way short and the
thing pinches.
ON ANOTHER NOTE, what hammer do you use to drill? Looking at a
roto hammer, the thought occurred to me that it doesn't hit hard,
but just a LOT of times in a short period. With that though, I've
been thinking of using a lighter hammer and going into whail mode.
What ye experienced bolters think?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 16, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
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I have no depth perception, so I love that the Petzl is short. I think it also helps me to keep the drill straight.
It never occurred to be that you big guys would have a problem with it. Hard to believe they finally made a peice of gear that works better for smaller people.
I could live w/o the bounce though.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Started with a hardware store ball-and-pein hammer, big and heavy.
Then finally started using a BD Hammer (thanks Ted at the Mountain Shop - gave me an old used one!).
Beat 3 or 4 of those to death. Then I bought a Cassin hammer for 14.95 (Sierra Trading post), sawed off the end of the handle to make it nice and short, and I had a custom "lightweight wilderness hammer." After using it a few times, switched over to using it nearly exclusively. A lot lighter, smaller, easier to use, and it fits in the A5 bolt bag along with a full bolt kit. No good for funking though, still use the BD hammer for heavy-duty rebolting projects.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 16, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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Thanks Greg, that's what I wanted to hear...
I have an old Chounard Ice Pick /hammer.
I was thinking of cutting off the pick to
make it lighter and less dangerous, but just
can't seem to bring myself around to do it.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
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Greg - Petzl Rocpecs, that's it? SDS bits only???....
Question: How true is a 3/8" Rocpec hand drilled hole?
I'm using the superior strength Taper Bolts from MKT Fastening and they require a pretty true 3/8" hole diameter ( I knew you'd get a kick out of that!)...
Oh yeah - I use an old Chouinard Hammer - great balance.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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Oh yeah, there are other nice things about the small light hammer. You hit faster and less heavily, and so the drill bits rarely disintegrate on you (and it's easier to avoid binding the bit when expanding 1/4" holes). And when the hammer is riding in a gear loop (or hammer holster), the handle isn't as long so it doesn't get in the way of doing high steps as easily.
It wouldn't be good for driving pins just because the handle is short and you'd scrape your knuckles - it would also be bad for funking out pins.
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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May 16, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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The Pika Drill is shiet. After a few hits the allen screws start to come undone and the bit wobbles. Pain in the ass to change out bits. THe cable attached to the head as a keeper sling does not rotate so it ends up kinking and breaking. The head doesn’t mushroom though..
Jesse.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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JB, I've never had any problems with SDS bits, and they are the industry standard in construction and with power drills. True holes as far as I can tell, although I don't really use any bolts that would be super-sensitive to perfect holes. The only thing I've seen regarding precise hole diameter is that a well drilled 3/8" hole would see the old Fixe stud bolts bind in the hole, but they were 10mm and thus slightly larger (now they make 3/8" versions). I never noticed any difference between the Hurricane and Rocpec as far as the holes. You'll have to ask some of the Valley guys on the metal drilling bits in the Hurricanes, not sure what precise diameter bits they use.
Of course, good technique is still needed to make a good straight hole. Especially since the SDS bits are slightly smaller along the shaft - thus it's possible to very slowly change the angle of the bolt hole (I've never had any trouble).
The Rocpec mechanism allows the drill bit some forward-backward play, which actually helps clean dust out of the hole as long as you don't put too much pressure on the drill.
I used a Pika once for part of a hole. I know at least a couple guys who swear by them as the only drill for guys with huge hands, I think they use light-duty threadlock on the little set screws.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 16, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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Greg, do you custom sharpen your SDS bits for hand drilling?? Change the angle of attack on the insert a tad to drill faster?
Also, with 1/4" bits, are you drilling a pilot hole first, and then finishing up with a 3/8" bit? You think that's faster? Hole quality better?
Yeah, the Rocpec can put a painful pinch on ya.
I've been using a Grivel Thor for some of my bolt work (setting, mostly, but some hand drilling too, in sandstone specifically). Heavy enough to set a pin too. Pretty good cleaning tip and the handle hides a nut tool of sorts. Been a nice hammer and lightweight.
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 04:32pm PT
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Hey Brian. No, don't sharpen. I sharpened some of the old ones years ago, but you can't sharpen the SDS bits now that they are all wavy-tipped (supposedly drills better, but actually keeps people from sharpening bits so the companies can sell more). Never noticed any benefit from sharpening them, and they disintegrated much quicker. Some Valley folks swear by sharp metal drilling bits, but you have to re-sharpen all the time.
I use 1/4" buttonheads with stainless SMC hangers on FAs, as well as 3/8" - depends on the stance. Properly drilled in good rock, they're good (at least for a while). I replace most of them right away. An interesting side product of doing that is finding out just how good the rock is - last fall I pulled a freshly placed 1/4" in what I thought was fairly good granite (bit lower quality than most of Tuolumne) only to find nearly no compression since the rock was a bit too soft.
No way would I drill a 1/4" as a pilot hole for 3/8", you need to drill fast and expanding a 1/4" hole is somewhat delicate work - it's way too easy to bind a 3/8" drill bit when expanding a 1/4" hole if you try to rush it.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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May 16, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
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"I have an old Chounard Ice Pick /hammer.
I was thinking of cutting off the pick to
make it lighter and less dangerous, but just
can't seem to bring myself around to do it. "
Holy s#it, k-man!!! What are you thinking? If you really want to destroy it, send it to me and I'll send you a new Yo-Ham or similar. Have you seen the ridiculous prices people pay for that old Chouinard stuff on eBay? Seriously, collectors eat those up. As nice of a bolting hammer as that would make, it would be a shame.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 16, 2007 - 05:06pm PT
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A friend of mine tossed me the ice pick. He also has a mint
condition Chounard/Frost ice axe, man that thing was pretty.
He tried to give it to me as well, but I couldn't take it from
him. A day later, I saw one go on eBay for $1500 (and in worse
condition).
PS. I did take his A5 hammer though ;-) But that'll kill your
are to drill bolts...
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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May 16, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Use the Hurricane drill w/ the Pica as a backup.
Only prob w/ the hurricane is that my pinky and part of my ring finger hang off the rubber handle. Does get loose from time to time, but nothing like the Pica style setup.
The pica is basically a copy of the old ? (I forget, but I've used it. Has set screws.) Some lock tight or something would help so it doesn't loosen up often. It does have a big rubber handle though which is nice.
One would have to get used to the "rebound/recoil" on the Petzl (have heard many complaints about this).
BTW, I primarily use 3/8" SDS bits, with an occasional 1/2" SDS and 1/4" bit thrown in. Hurricane is my preferred ... wish the rubber handle was longer!
Enjoy!
burp
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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May 16, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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I agree, do not sharpen the SDS bits, the tip will disintegrate after one hole. I used a Petzl and my Hurricane last summer, both have their advantages. The pinching from the Petzl is a real drag when you're already gripped and on an uncomfortable stance.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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I fifth or sixth the recommendation for the Petzl RocPec. I used the Rawl system then the Hurricane before switching to the RocPec. I would agree that the sliding nature of the way the RocPec holds the bit seems to mimic the way a hammer drill works. My in-the-field tests indicate to me that I can drill a 3/8" hole much faster with the RockPec than with the Hurricane. The only thing I can attribute it to is the loose(sliding) way the RockPec holds the bits.
Bruce
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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May 16, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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I disagree with the Petzl drilling a hole much faster. Used them back-to-back last summer. Or maybe it was cause the Petzl was pinching my skin so bad I had to stop and curse more often.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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May 16, 2007 - 06:17pm PT
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k-man wrote:
"I have an old Chounard Ice Pick /hammer.
I was thinking of cutting off the pick to
make it lighter and less dangerous, but just
can't seem to bring myself around to do it."
Good, don't. With what you can sell this for on EBay you can buy three, four, or more hammers of your choice.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 16, 2007 - 06:55pm PT
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Message for Johnny B. I got a brand spanking new Hurricane drill with your name on it. I was saving it for my grandchildren, but maybe you can give it back when they need it. Send me your address.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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Thanx Deuce! Is the Hurricane better than that Petzl thing?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 16, 2007 - 10:24pm PT
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Hi John-
Just sent you an email, then saw this. Regarding the Hurricane:
You can cut off part of the shank of SDS drills with the Hurricane, 'cuz you don't need the fluted thingies anyway, I personally like a shorter set up for drilling on lead.
I haven't tried the Petzl, but personally, I like a rigid connection between the holder and the drill, then let your grip allow for percussion technique. With the Petzl, the drill wobbles in the holder, which some have said they like, but it wouldn't be for me.
But hey, what do I know, I only drilled a 1000 or so bolts in my time. Though my record of drilling an 1 1/4" long 1/4 bolt in granite in 47 seconds (drilling hole and placing bolt) is probably still a record, especially now that no one drills 1/4" anymore.
Walt and Tucker route "Deucey's Elbow" was named after my drilling muscle on my right elbow, I was told. That muscle's no longer there, I'm afraid.
Cheers
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 16, 2007 - 10:32pm PT
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I bring a Petzl drill as my emergency bolt kit on El Cap. I haven't had to use it yet though. It's nice and light for an emergency kit.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 17, 2007 - 12:55am PT
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Deuce, I would suggest you try the Petzl RockPec. I had been using the Hurricane for over 10 years, but went to the RockPec because it did not require wrenches, which were a pain, especially if the drill bit loosened up while drilling.
More to the point, after two years of using the RockPec exclusively, I used the Hurricane one day when I had loaned out my RockPec. As my rebolting partner can attest, I was a very unhappy camper. Every vibration and shock from hitting the drill was transmitted straight to my hand and it seemed to me that the drill had a lot of kick back. It took me way longer to drill a hole with the Hurricane than with the RockPec which I verified when I came back a week later and drilled holes in the same piece of rock with the RockPec in about 2/3rd the time as the Hurricane.
Obviously, personal experiences and personal preferences vary, but I won't be using my Hurricane (which I used religously for over 10 years) anytime soon.
Bruce
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 09:36am PT
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It sounds like a different style of drilling using a drill holder with the bit loose in the holder like the Petzl. Somehow, I doubt it would be faster in general, but it may be for some people. The SDS "loose" system is designed for smashing rock at 1000 blows per minute, and proper hand drilling is really cutting rock at 60 hits per minute, so personally I like the percise control of rotation per hit that comes with a fixed holder. Of course, good drilling takes a loose hand when hitting for proper percussion.
I drilled probably 70 holes with my Hurricane in Zion and never once did the bit loosen.
But I should try the new "loose bit" system to truly compare.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 17, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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I've used both the Petzl Rokpec in Zion, and a standard Rawl w/ holder. Both with 3/8" drill bits.
My Rawl is MUCH faster.
That said, I notice when I drill with a sharpened SDS bit (steepen the angle a bit) that it drills faster in sandstone. Over heating during the sharpening process will ruin the insert though. Keep 'er cool.
Greg, I think either Dewalt or Bosch is still making the SDS bits with the non wavy tip? I've got a gob of them (discount warehouse, 2 bucks per, I think I snagged 60 or 70 of them!). Do go through a few every season, though...
One thing I did for an emergency drilling rig in Zion with the Rokpec was to cut a worn out drill bit down and sharpen the end to a chisel point. The flange on the back end is a bit large for hard rock, but, in soft sandstone, it works kinda ok (does bind a bit). The soft metal (cutting off the insert in an SDS bits leaves you with just the shaft metal) wears very quickly, but, in the soft rock in some of Zion, you can get several holes done fairly quickly and the short length of the drill bit, in combo with the short handle, make for a real nice small and lightweight package to carry.
Only short drills (4") I've found to buy are the expensive Hilti 10mm rigs. Nice to have, though.
I'd get a hurricane drill though, if I could find one. Being able to lock in any drill bit would be nice. I think for hand drilling, the non SDS bits drill faster as the tips are typically sharper. SDS bits are pretty dull out the chute. I guess they don't need to be sharp when using a power drill and drilling in concrete.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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Here's some example of drill tips I like:
From left to right: a SDS bit ground to pure chisel tip. This one has drilled probably 100 holes without ever having been re-sharpened (albeit in Sandstone and Limestone).
Next, is an old Rawl #20 bit (note that the taper shank actually still fits perfectly and nicely in the Hurricane Holder), ground to chisel tip.
Far right: SDS bit drilled with "modified pointed chisel tip". Nice for harder rock.
Note also in the first photo how the end of the SDS shanks are cut off to make for shorter drills.
"Cut rock, don't smash"
cheers
ps here's a link to an old drilling article (published in Climbing in 1988), which still has bits of pertinent info (no pun intended): http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/bolts.pdf
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 17, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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Speaking of bolts, here's some old pics of tests we did in Yosemite back in the 80's just behind the cache:
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 17, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
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Cool photos John!
I love my HMW drill...thing has never failed me, drilled tons of holes, and keeps on going.
Thanks JM!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 17, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
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Nice photo's of the bits!
One thing I've noticed, is that if you have a pretty dull SDS bit, from wear and tear, and resharpen, the bit tends to be on the small side which can, in hard rock, make setting especially powerbolts no bueno. Cone gets over schmushed. Powerbolts seem to be more finicky on the drill size. I measure mine after especially any heavy use and retire when under a certain size (.390, I seem to recall).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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May 18, 2007 - 09:40pm PT
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I have a pika drill that has worked great in the sandstone on the Colorado Platue, but the allen wrench bolts are alittle annoying and using the allen key once you've duct taped it to the cable sucks. Pete Takeda brought his Petzl drill along on a project yesterday and I drilled two holes with it. I'm switching.
The pinching is a little annoying but I have pretty small hands so no big deal. I did think it drilled faster and eaiser, although I haven't timed it. It seems that the action of the petzl helps to free the bit after every strike of the hammer, and once the hole was started I could hold the grip with just my finger tips and slowley spin the thing as it sunk in the rock. Another reason I'm convinced it drills faster is that I over drilled both holes because it was so easy.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 18, 2007 - 10:55pm PT
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Good pix Deucy....Yeah the Rawl #20 bit is the one I used forever to drill the 3/8" Taper Bolts in Tuolumne. Worked pretty well I thought - must have drilled well over 50.
Was that a true 3/8" bit or slightly smaller diameter?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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May 22, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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Is that Ted, the Unabomber in that last pic, Deuce?
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euro-brief-guy
climber
mountain view, ca
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May 22, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Say deuce, anybody ever tell you that you bear a strong resemblance to KD Lang?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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May 22, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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Actually, I *am* KD Lang, but the frequent sex changes are taking a toll on me.
The guy in the picture is Hal, a freind of John Dill's. Quite an intelligent guy, not sure if he put his efforts into fertilizer or not, but I don't think so.
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NoRushNoMore
climber
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May 22, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Another option for a hammer, worked well for me for the past 3 years:
Camp Brenta Hammer (mec.ca has them for about $50)
Hilti has a fancy cross pattern tip bit with double fluting and solid carbite head, rather pricy but drills almost twice as fast and last about 3x the normal bit
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