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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 15, 2007 - 02:53pm PT
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***EDITED TO ADD, THAT THIS PARTICULAR CAM POSSIBLY FALLS INTO THE EXPANDED UNOFFICIAL RECALL DATE RANGE:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/105854463 ***
I just finished testing some Aliens for a guy who was nervous. As Charles Manson said in his interview with Tom Snyder in the 70's..... "yeah.... the head popped off"
Alien Failure notes:
Test date: 5/15/07
Tested by: Russ
Unit: Blue Alien.
Manufacture Date on trigger: 11/05. No "tensile test" markings from manufacturer.
Visual damage, pre-test: unit is used, with no significant wear or damage visible. NO Dimple.
Test method: clip in end attached to puller via wire loop, not through sling. Head was attached to fixed point via a webbing loop that loads evenly on either side of the cable terminus across the axle.
Results: cable pulled out of terminus ball at 900lbs.
Observations:
Cable end at failure is devoid of solder and shows some corrosion or powdery material in the terminus ball and on the cable. Cable can be separated from itself at solder end as there is no solder bonding the individual strands. The inside of the terminus fitting shows some corrosion or white powder and little to no evidence of solder. There appears to be no cable left in the hole.
Misc. mechanicals (approx):
Hole depth in terminus: .390
Length of cable with no solder: .250
Apparent depth of soldered area that was inserted into terminus: .109
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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May 15, 2007 - 02:55pm PT
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Russ.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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May 15, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
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Holy Chit! 900 lbs??? I'm close to that now...
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euro-brief-guy
climber
mountain view, ca
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May 15, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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I guess Chez shouldn't be hanging on those.....
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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May 15, 2007 - 03:00pm PT
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Russ, I can't quite picture how you had the webbing loop around the head for the test. WOuld you mind posting a photo of that?
crap your pants EDIT:
I checked the cch website, it claims blue aliens are rated to 2200lbs...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 15, 2007 - 03:00pm PT
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Wow, that does it for me, all my Aliens are going to the trash!
Oh wait, I don't have any, cause they always looked like someone made em in their garage, apparently while smoking a joint.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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SCARY! Thanks Russ.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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May 15, 2007 - 03:07pm PT
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Ow! Thanks for posting, Russ!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
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i spoke to a guy from sacto on saturday at the base of el cap who claimed to have some sort of pull test apparatus and he told me he'd recently tested 15 post-recall aliens and a handfull had failed in that range.
$64,000 question: how does a laypersun go about pull testing his aliens to determinew if they are safe?
i own a dozen and i use them all the time, but i can't say that i'f ever fallen very hard on any of them- several slow (rope strechy) falls but no slams i can recall.
any useful suggestions (short of the compost pile) appreciated, thanks.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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CCH should know about this, but may not be aware of SuperTopo. Is there some way to contact them?
Also, Russ mentioned he'd tested several - the test report seems to be for one unit. How were the others?
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bones
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 15, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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effin'a. Now I'm getting nervous.
What's a good estimate on how much force a rigorous bounce test can yield? Yes, I know F=mxa, but I don't know how to measure "a" for a bounce test. I'd rather not send my aliens away for testing, but then again, I'd also rather not end up cratering.
How long a turn around time can I expect from CCH if I send 'em in?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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my best recolection(?) was that sacto feller said he'd had units fail at 800 lbs., and that you could generate that kinda force w/ a stiff bounce test.
(naturally i went up the 10c on the salathe and placed aliens left and right- literally- in the double cracks)
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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May 15, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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"Holy Chit! 900 lbs??? I'm close to that now..."
Heh heh.
At least this thread is amusing, in addition to being alarming.
Like Matt, I don't know if any of my Aliens has held a hard fall. They're older though (~2000), and I gotta think that if Aliens manufactured back then were bad we wouldda heard about the problems long ago.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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May 15, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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One could call them up directly and check :
http://aliencamsbycch.com/contact.html
I sent a batch back last winter (Jan 06) for testing, and I think it took about a month, but that was in the midst of a recall frenzy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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What's the Blue one rated for?
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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May 15, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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improper wetting of the material to be brazed together. either didn't flux the whole cable that goes into the housing or only was surface heated.
send it to me i'll braze the sucker up so it never comes apart.
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Gene
climber
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May 15, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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Dimpled?
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Murf
climber
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May 15, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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Russ,
If I understand you correctly, this cam was within the recall range. One question, was the cam dimpled?
Murf
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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edited info above... no dimple
I tested 11 in this batch. Test goes go 1200lbs +/-. One failed at 900.
Is 1200lbs enough? probably knott, but it should find some glaring weaknesses.... any more than that and the unit might be damaged with our setup.
Test your own....hmmmm.... I know I have broken biners with a fukness device and can break #1 heads by bouncing.... a #1 cable loop will go to 800+/-
For a dirty test you could order up a bunch of #1 circle heads (hint) and then put them in the system and then honk on them with a fukness... cable breaks at a known number = alien tested to that number..... would probably work fairly well for an everyman test.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 15, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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Thanks for the info and write up Russ!
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Perhaps the industry needs an independent testing organization like Consumer's Reports. (FISH Reports?)
Funded by climbers and maybe insurance companies? Charge manufacturers for certification of test results on randomly purchased inventories from retailers and wholesalers?
9% failure rate! Even though this batch might not have been random, and it is small, it is scary.
Russ, how many others have you tested besides this batch? Have you tested a significant amount of gear from other manufacturers?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 15, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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As the proud owner of many sets of the units that were manufactured during the time of the recall and prior to the supposed institution of pull-testing on each unit, I'd be curious to know how often CCH's test detects a dud...as these were all making it into the supply when I got mine.
I haven't sent mine back to them for pull testing b/c they've pretty much lost my trust there...Fox, would you please guard these-here chickens for me? Time to find a heavy friend and start bouncing!
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
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I own 1 each from black (almost never used) through purple. All from '02 except the orange which was within a month or so of the recall time (outside).
None ever tested by a fall, but often use half of them on any given pitch. Sure they look good, ...
How much would we pay?
If Russ isn't interested, maybe jstan?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 15, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Russ your #1 head test is clever marketing but I don't think that a real life application would hold up. My limited understanding is that 2 biners, for instance, doesn't actually hold double the weight of 1. 6 #1 heads bundled together won't necessarily hold 6 times the 800 lbs of force of 1. Ed or someone could probably be more specific.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 15, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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f*#k aliens
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 15, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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Damned right Jaybro.
Aliens have been molesting our redneck women in the back country with impunity for years!!!
It's about time they spread the other cheek.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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May 15, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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I've only done a handful of brazed joints, probably 4 or 5 in my life (though tons of assorted soldering, which barely relates). What surprises me is that there isn't a pair of small vent holes at the far end. For the couple brazed joint of this general style the female part had a pair of vent holes in the far end. The guy instructing me had me heat up by the junction and feed into the small hole until I got a good fillet up by the junction. The small hole on the far side was also inspected to assure proper flow across. In this way there was little chance of a captive air bubble, or not using enough material without knowing it.
Aliens don't have these vent holes. Why not?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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HDDJ: I have no idea what you are on about.
If a loop breaks at 800lbs, then a loop breaks at 800lbs. If you attach this loop to something that is stronger than 800lbs, the loop will break before the object it is attached to. If the object breaks and the loop is intact, then the object has broken at less than 800lbs. That's what I'm saying.....
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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May 15, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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I had all my aliens tensile tested by CCH last fall but am curious about their testing methods. By what's posted on the CCH website it sounds like they're just testing the cable, not the unit as a whole....
From http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html:
"Since January 2006 every main cable is tensile tested using an Omega electronic strain gauge to measure the load. The .33 through 1" main cables are tested to 1750 lbs and the 1.25 through 2.5 are tested to 2400 lbs. After testing they are stamped on the cable eye to indicate the test was made. Ultimate strength of a 3/4 Alien is over 2700 lbs."
WTF?? How valid is a test that measures the strength of a cable if the problems are related to where the cable attaches to the socket base?
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 15, 2007 - 04:38pm PT
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> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
What they're testing is the main cable _assembly_, consisting of the main cable with the bulb brazed on.
The way they do this test is to cut enough cable for two stems, braze bulbs on each end, and then do tensile testing between the two bulbs. Then they cut the cable, assemble the two cam units, and swage the thumb loop. I don't know if they test the assembled cam.
Bob "BoKu" K.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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fish- how much for a dozen loops sent to the bay area?
(am i gathering correctly that you'd supply these?)
and what would you suggest for a funkness to generate ~900 or 1000 lbs?
gracias in advance
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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May 15, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification Boku
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
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hypothetical Matt.... the method will work, but it's not like I've tested it or have them to sell. I'll see if I can come up with a good method that I can send out to the average punter... no guarantee you'll live, but it might make things a bit safer. Voter registration cards will dictate price ;)
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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i'll be sure to have one of the 4 republicans in berkeley order them onmy behalf, fo the 'braindead discount'...
=)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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Melissa - I think you should assume that 100% of cams made in that date range will fail. Funkness testing will not tell you anything. Stop scaring us and go exchange your cams.
There's a lot wrong with the joint in Russ's pix. It looks like it was brazed by a moron, or someone on their first day of the job, or both. Scary.
Ragarding another post, a good welder should be able to tell when the joint is full of braze material - it overflows a bit. The joint in Russ's picture is clearly "cold", however, so this wouldn't apply.
Brazing - not a good process for high volume production. You can see Black Diamond doesn't do it, for example. Too reliant on techinique, difficult to impossible to control to the process in any meaningful way, and difficult to inspect.
It would be nice to see CCH go to a joint similar to what you see on the Camalot C3's. Seems it would require minimal change to their existing design and processes.
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Funkness testing will not tell you anything.
explain please
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Russ - there's no quantitative result for a funkness, no repeatability, really little to no control at all. For example, a circlehead might hold 2000 lbs for several milliseconds, but break at 1000 lbs on a continuous pull tester. Have you just tested your Alien to 2k or 1k? I don't know. Pull testing is not just a machine that breaks things, its a well known and documented test process that repeats the same test processes used on the individual materials and componants from other manufacturers.
But - I'd be curious to see the results of someone putting a gage on a "funkness test process" and see what comes up. However, my training and experience tells me the results will be all over the place, and the numbers meaningless since we can't compare them to anything other than other funkness tests.
Let me know your thoughts.
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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JLP: True, an inexperienced funktester will have results all over the place. But, rather than a 105lb girl bounce testing her Aliens (little to no good) a 105lb girl funking her Aliens will have some merit. An experienced funkateer (is that a word?) can narrow the range and that is why funk testing is used on lead to test heads and whatnot. The range can be fairly narrow on a repeatable basis in the right hands.
What I would like to get across is that if you put a loop in the system that breaks at a known amount,and THEN funk the Alien or whatever until this loops breaks you will have a pretty good and narrow range of usability. It will certainly tell you whether the head of your Alien is still on the shaft or not and that it at least got a load of say 1200lbs. YMMV.
Got to be better than just counting "head wounds" at the end of each week, wouldn't you say?
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creetur
climber
CA
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May 15, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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could someone just break it down for a girl?
i was planning on going out and breaking the bank on a set of aliens to round out my emergent rack but all of this business is making me think more than twice.
i learned on aliens, led on them, fell on them, whimpered over them while jamming them into little cracks, and now i feel like i'm learning that momma's out of love.
is there a general consensus on aliens? are C3s better?
k
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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Creetur et al:
Full diclosure edit: I do not own any Aliens, save for one.
In my opinion, Aliens are still fine to use IF THEY HAVE BEEN TESTED. I would like to have them tested by someone outside of CCH. This is not to say that Aliens tested by CCH are in any way substandard, but I like some separation between manufacturer and tester when my life depends on it. There is a lot at stake on both sides and some outside testing and a real data release would go a long way.
Just have all your units tested and then go climbing..... no worries.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
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Russ - I agree with your latter post with the bounce testing. I would not agree with hammer testing (I thought hammer = funkness?), as I think the loads can get way too high and damage things.
But, since pull testing these Aliens is free, with on-the-spot repair/replacement of failures by CCH...is there really any reason not to go this route?
If I had a cam with a date stamp in the recall range, I'd simplify things by just heading over to REI.
Thanks for the original post, and your time spent, BTW. Very good stuff.
JLP
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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It's worth noting that this failed unit is within the range of dates that CCH says should be tested.
C3s look better than other solutions but I don't think they have hybrids and they aren't as flexible, nor do they have 4 cams. Close but no Cigar.
Aliens still rule for aid and pin scars. Otherwise I'd use something else
peace
karl
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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Seems there are two types of recall with these cams: One by the CPSC (?) and one by a post on Mountain Project.
It seems that the "real" recall is for dimpled cams in the date period, and the Mountain Project post by CCH says all cams. hmmmmm.....
So, without really looking into it, only the DIMPLED cams are really under the recall umbrella. The other post is an addendum not filed with the CPSC.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 15, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
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Aliens are so homebrew, they had their time in the limelight as the coolest tiny units, but for me,all this sh#t is just the final nail in the Alien coffin..get some modern sh#t like c3's and have no fear.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 07:27pm PT
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"if it breaks at X, then it pretty much breaks at X"
This is more or less true, but what's missing here are 2 things.
1) They are not using a hammer for their dynamic testing. A hammer would be more like shock or impulse testing.
2) During such shock or impulse testing, very high loads can transmit through the system and create invisible and/or unexpected damage, especially dependent on how the unit is fixtured.
You noticed also how BD mentioned the measurement and repeatability problems with dynamic testing? Impulse/shock testing is even worse.
The climber in me really likes your underlying idea - to take matters into hand as we do on the cliffs - but the engineer in me says this is not the right answer. I would recommend sending to manufacturer. They are the experts and will account for much more than a typical climber can think of. If one can't trust the manfacturer to return a "good" unit, then that person shouldn't be using their gear.
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 07:47pm PT
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I agree JLP.... but.... here is the thing.... being climbers, they ain't gonna send their cams in for testing. No way. A field test would be much more to their liking.
The great mystery of this whole thing, that I think would be most interesting is:
How many cams were made in that period, and how many have been returned for testing. Care to guess??? If I was a betting man (wink) I would say that somewhere between 15-20% of the cams affected in the recall have now been tested. I might even go lower... so 80% of suspect cams are still out there. Whaddya think? How many people on here own them and have not sent them in? And remember these are people who are on here all the time and getting the most up to date info available. How about traveling climbers and non-internet climbers.... how would they even know? Even if it was published in the mags..... have you seen the circulation numbers lately?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 15, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
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"If one can't trust the manfacturer to return a "good" unit, then that person shouldn't be using their gear."
Therein lies the $1000 crux...and so many changes of heart wrt the answer.
Thanks for your insights into the engineering of these things and for taking the time to give us layfolks some of the pros and cons of homebrew testing.
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Roman
Trad climber
DC
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May 15, 2007 - 07:54pm PT
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AC, I personally think you are cool and have never thought you to be the pest that some make you out to be and I know The Fish has given you sh#t before.... but for god sakes you come off as a bit of a wanker trying to razz him up while he is doing something beneficial to the community.
I'm sure to bean counters his 'weakest link' methodology is suspect but in the realm of common sense (the climbing world) it all makes good sense.
-
Just my $0.02
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Roman
Trad climber
DC
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May 15, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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JLP said:
"A hammer would be more like shock or impulse testing.
2) During such shock or impulse testing, very high loads can transmit through the system and create invisible and/or unexpected damage, especially dependent on how the unit is fixtured."
Is this not exactly what happens when we take a whip? (Note, I am not meaning to seem confrontational I am just a currious n00b)
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Roman
Trad climber
DC
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May 15, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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" I just hate to see good gear get slandered. "
Word. I bounce test the sh#t out of every C0 - C1 placement I make so I guess I am cool either way :)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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Mike. : not really testing them... every once in a while, but I suggest sending them to CCH and hoping for the best.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 15, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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Is this not exactly what happens when we take a whip?
negative- whipping on the gear ought to be a somewhat dynamic load (although multiple variables exist), while slamming it w/ a funkness of some sort ought to be a comparatively static force.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 15, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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"being climbers, they ain't gonna send their cams in for testing"
Perhaps true - but how many are going to do your test?
All aside, these internet forums on the subject have been very interesting and educational, and have convinced me to send mine in to get tested. I'll use my old TCU's for a week or two while they are gone.
I sent a 00 (or whatever their smallest is called) in several years ago that had its lobes flattened out in a fall and was very impressed when they rebuilt the thing for free and had it back to me very quickly.
Kudos again for taking the time, Russ. Your effort appears to have found something not yet fully revealed to the public. Sounds like you got CCH's interest, as well as several climbers. Where will these cams be 6 months from now? I know CCH is working hard on this one - that or they are on their way out of business. Time will tell.
JLP
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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May 15, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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CertifiedAlienTesting.com
Testing certified by the following international standards organizations:
ISO 9001
Six Sigma
QS2000
under construction, coming soon.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 15, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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For many years ago REI did a lot of testing of gear. This was back when Cal Magnesum ran the QA department. Cal was an engineer for Boeing in the 70s and then got laided off. Jim Whitiker hired him. Years ago Cal allowed me to come up to do some testing on some ropes using their drop test apparatus. At the time it was the only one in the USA.
Within the USA REI is probably the best source for an independent test sans sending them to a qualified lab or getting a engineering student to runs somes tests as part of a project. Which what I did when I was working on my degree - I broke a bunch of gear. He he that was fun. A old friend does this with cars now, smashing Ford Explorers into walls.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 15, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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Radical, Russ's idea of using something with a known breaking strength might help quantify bounce-testing (set a lower limit on its strength).
Otherwise I would not bet that it would be easily repeatable across different individuals. A bounce-test is going to be dependent on your weight, the length of rope involved, its "stretchiness, how high you bounce, whether you are bouncing on aiders or a harness, etc.
All that said, I would not really want to bet that brazes are either 100% good or garbage. My guess is their quality fits some sort of distributional curve (bell?), but its breadth bothers me.
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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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May 15, 2007 - 08:43pm PT
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Are you aid climbers or a bunch of queefin' pussies? Sheesh! You put the sh#t in the crack, stand up on the sh#t, repeat! What more do you need to know?
CCH -- putting the A4 back into C2 . . .
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 15, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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I'm with Jaybro on this one...
(humor completely intended)
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 15, 2007 - 08:55pm PT
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Loom, I just had to borrow that...it was too good...
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Roman
Trad climber
DC
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May 15, 2007 - 08:58pm PT
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That's a keeper steelmnky!
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 09:12pm PT
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You guys need to start selling those shirts!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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I'll buy one!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 15, 2007 - 09:22pm PT
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900£? eh, ...So, if steelmnky and I were on an alien sponserd, hanging belay...
we'd fall twice?
I'm going golfing, in a cool t-shirt.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Sign me up for one of each T-shirt! Thems gonna be collectors items in 10 years, when n00bies have no idea what "Aliens" were.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
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Don't forget to get that Alien Logo in there.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 15, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
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I'll buy two of those C2/A4 tshirts in a heartbeat.
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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May 15, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
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Wow. Sh*t.
This is like finding out your big brother was a serial killer or something. You probably knew he was kinda f'ed up all along, but you still liked him.
Last weekend I went out and bounce tested my newest aliens that haven't already held whips or been bounced on, and they 'passed'. However, I've got no concept of how much force I was really generating. Russ, any idea what kind of force a 150lb climber bounce testing can create (in my case the system was alien-biner through thumb loop, 2ft mammut dyneema sling, biner through belay loop of harness. My core is like steel, so it'd be best to assume there's no energy loss there from deformation......er....what?).
Edit: Count me in for a t-shirt...
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Griff
Social climber
Felton, PA
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May 15, 2007 - 10:35pm PT
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O.K.
After reading 80+ posts let me check my notes....
-105 lb. girl
-bounce test
-slow pull test
Got it.
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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May 15, 2007 - 10:52pm PT
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Loom, "CCH -- putting the A4 back into C2 . "
Now that's funny! Wish I had come up with it!!
~Susan
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 15, 2007 - 11:12pm PT
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Over on Andy Kirkpatrick's site he recommends using light cord like 2mm or 3mm to dial in your bounce testing and so that you could give some sort of number to your tests.
Here's what's he's suggesting:
"The trick to testing is to understand how much force you can apply, and then you know that if you weigh 80kg and are generating 200kg then the gear's solid! A good way to get to grips with testing is to get a loop of 2mm perlon and gently hang of it. It should hold your weight (even a beefy american) but if you bounce it it'll break (A good A5+ piece). Next do the same with a piece of 3mm. This is far more solid and will easily take your weight - but it will only have the stopping power of...3mm cord (A4+ pro). Bounce this until you can break it – harder then it sounds. 4mm is way stronger, and may even stop a fall (about 3/4kn) and may prove hard to break in a bounce (A3)."
Seems like you could apply the same thought to testing an Alien?
Here's a link to the site: http://www.psychovertical.com/?testing
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 15, 2007 - 11:20pm PT
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Here ya go Mal, the Mal Daly special edition...
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jackass
climber
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May 15, 2007 - 11:33pm PT
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Send the C2 to A4 shirt to www.cafepress.com... I'll buy too. You may get sued, but it will be worth it until they tell you to cease and desist.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 12:17am PT
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I know a guy that has a permanant plate in his head because one of these things blew apart when he simply rested on it (no fall). He's super lucky he isn't dead or sucking peanut butter and jelly sandwiches through a straw. Seems like we either have to joke about this, or go crazy thinking about the possibility of dead climbers.
p.s. Hey Mal - it's been a long time since I even saw an ad... is that CCH's actual alien logo?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 16, 2007 - 12:52am PT
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I was just looking through my Alien pile, getting ready to send them in, thinking about some questions and expectations I might have for the man himself - when I noticed my older Aliens indeed have a drilled hole in the female part, where the braze material can be seen and inspected. I would assume the cable could be seen through this hole as well during assembly. The surface containing the hole was machined flat after brazing. These were bought 1994-1996 or so, and have no date stamps. My next oldest is from 0304 and does not have this drilled hole, nor any machining marks. Interesting...kind of. Reminded me we're all just sort of jerking ourselves trying to understand the issues from the outside. These kinds of things always look simple enough, but they're not.
Steelmonkey - your friend with the plate - how did the cam fail?
These things have saved my butt so many times over, with no close equal on the market. I want them to keep working for me and I'll put in a little effort to make it so, but it's really too bad the quality appears to have taken such a grievous turn.
JLP
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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My friend's cam failed right at the braze. Head of the cam pulled right off the wire. I haven't seen the unit in person, but that's his description. Non-dimple unit that he was given by a major climbing store as a replacement for a dimpled unit. The recall was not big enough, IMHO.
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kuan
Sport climber
CA
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May 16, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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Aaaugh - I shouldn't read this before going to bed. Now I'm going to have nightmares!
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gymclean
Mountain climber
Menlo Park, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 06:26am PT
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To any of you wanting to sell your Aliens, I'll be happy to pick them up now that Crowley has had his fill. I offer $10 each for Aliens in good condition, and I'll cover the shipping. E-mail me if you're interested.
George
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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May 16, 2007 - 06:38am PT
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JLP it looks more like a improper braze fill than a cold joint. the end of the cable is dirty w/ oxidation and no braze. if the cable was fluxed you wouldn't see oxidation at the cable end and the braze would adhere to the cable from the cleaning of the flux. if your parts are dirty good luck getting a good braze joint
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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May 16, 2007 - 07:12am PT
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Steelmnky, awesome T-shirt design! Question due to me living overseas, would you mind if I got a T-shirt made up here locally of your design? Willing to pay some beers in royalties!
cheers
dirtbagger
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honemasterT
Trad climber
Arizona
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May 16, 2007 - 10:35am PT
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These things were handmade back in the day,
in the good ole USofA.
Is this still the case? Mfg. stateside or
outsourced to China?
Wherever it is they need to re-learn how to
solder/braze again!
Scary, need to pull the ones from my rack
and visually inspect them, With all the time
my gear has spent in the upstairs loft closet,
I'd hate to have one of these fail while gathering
dust! DOH! ;-)
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honemasterT
Trad climber
Arizona
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May 16, 2007 - 10:38am PT
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"Fail-iens!"
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 16, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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BadInfluence - I agree, there are many things wrong with the picture. The reason I say cold joint is the lack of bonding with the female part, other than just a tiny bit around the opening. This would indicate they got the wire and the braze hot, but not enough heat to get the female part hot as well. Both a lack of flux and a cold female part would cause what you see. Looks like both happened. Obviously really poor work in any case.
JLP
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 16, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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Honemaster- That is pretty good too!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 16, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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Check your dates, get em tested if they are in the recall area.
For aid and pin scar climbers, it's worth noting one thing. There are two ways cams can fail to hold a fall, by breaking or by simply pulling out.
On the wasteland, if you renounce your Aliens, it's gonna be tough to find something that's gonna stay in some pin scars well enough to even bounce test.
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 12:22pm PT
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".... it's gonna be tough to find something that's gonna stay in some pin scars well enough to even bounce test."
I have piton, I will smash it in.
What's so tough about that?
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 16, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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my c3's are fittin' great in pinscars! and they even stay together!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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HDDJ - honeboy sent me that one this morning. Thought that was a good one. I'm seeing yet another t-shirt, but have to wait 'til later to pull it off.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 16, 2007 - 01:15pm PT
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like I needed another reason to lose weight...
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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Yet another t-shirt...theme courtesy of honemaster-T
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 16, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
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Nice! But there's no E in X-treme. ;-)
Are you going to put these babies on cafepress? Strike while the iron's hot!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Melissa edit added above.
(reload the page if you've already seen it as it was).
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 16, 2007 - 05:52pm PT
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.... Sigh ....
Just went out and bought all five C-3's.....
This last 5/15 failure was the last straw...
I'll sure miss my little Aliens but this sh#t is absurd. I pull tested all of mine to 1000 pounds but with this last failure at 900 it brings up the point that we really have NO idea just how bad the brazing might be in any of them.
With the dimpled ones I had hope. It was supposedly just the cams they had outsourced and the failed ones seemed to fail at really low forces. Now that's all untrue.
Might fail at 500, 900, 1000, 1200.... hmmmm....
I figure I'm rolling the dice enough 15 feet over my last piece. Might as well have a piece in that isn't known to blow apart occasionally.
RIP my little Aluminum friends.....
-Fear
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 16, 2007 - 06:16pm PT
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Okay, one last one then I'm hanging it up...
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
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My dear Mr. Steelman
The last one above is the finest. My worthless opinion to you.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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May 16, 2007 - 06:28pm PT
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Vision! I just love the 'Screwed' part.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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May 16, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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I have 16 aliens, regular and offset. I sent 13 of them in for testing last year (they were somewhat around the recall window, some in, some out by 1/2 year), and I got them back in ~10 days, all having the tensile-tested mark. I just sent in the other 3 (which are from 2002), just for peace of mind. I know I fell on some, but cannot recall which, so I sent the whole bunch. CCH fixed at no cost (besides shipping) 2 pieces some years back. So they are responsive to customers IMO. The product has fantastic design, but I have to admit that the execution of that design could improve on many fronts, like materials they use, manufacturing process, etc, without screwing the design...
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waltereo01
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 07:41pm PT
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Hi,
What those NEW aliens look like ???
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waltereo01
climber
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May 16, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Cheap system to test your cams
After reading the different system to test the cams from Boku (http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=277009&msg=292452#msg292452); and Tim (http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1591761#1591761);
I use mammut 6 mm perlon (rated at 7.5kn=1 690lb) to pull test
it. If the cam is good, the 6mm perlon will fail first. I finally
come to this system. What you need :
1x vise (20$)
2x car jack (just borrow them)
3x 30cm plumbing steel tube (or just go to a car scrap to pick some steel bar)
10-15m of 6mm perlon (10$)
Total cost around :50$
After 3 cams tested, none failed
Here are the pictures of my cheapo system
The 2 pieces of wood are used to hold the steel bar. Since they
are circular they fall easily. So better to take a flat bar. But
for the top bar, better to take a round one so avoid
concentration of force on the perlon.
The surface if my vise does not provide enough friction. I still try to find a way to add some friction on them.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 16, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
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> Cheap system to test your cams...
One thing to watch out for is that cam angles in the neighborhood of 15 degrees give the cam something like a 4:1 mechanical advantage - that is, for 1000 lbs of pull force you're applying a 4000 lb opening force on the jaws of the vise. Testing to 1750 lbs yields a 7000 lb opening force.
Vises may look bomber, but so far I've broken two of them doing stuff like that. And when cast iron stuff like that breaks, bits can go flying far and wide.
Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.
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waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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May 17, 2007 - 12:09pm PT
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>One thing to watch out for is that cam angles in the neighborhood
>of 15 degrees give the cam something like a 4:1 mechanical
>advantage - that is, for 1000 lbs of pull force you're applying a
>4000 lb opening force on the jaws of the vise. Testing to 1750 lbs
>yields a 7000 lb opening force.
Good to known ! I think mine cost me something like 50-60$ a couple years ago.
Thanks
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 17, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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Are the crimps in the cables just cosmetic dents in the plastic?
I'd worry that pulling hard enough to put a real fold in the wires would weaken them. That would be the worst...screwing up my cams while testing them to make sure they were safe.
If I took a 1700 lb fall, I'd probably want to give the peice that held me a big kiss and then hang it on the mantle anyway.
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waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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May 17, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
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> Are the crimps in the cables just cosmetic dents in the plastic?
Yes it is cometic dents. The cable is fine. At 1700lb, the plastic just cannot handle that pressure.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 17, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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> Are the crimps in the cables just cosmetic
> dents in the plastic?
>
> I'd worry that pulling hard enough to put a
> really fold in the wires would weaken them.
I wondered about that myself. Definitely a valid concern.
When I did pull tests on the Petrenko Links #3 last year I used a hook that had an edge radius of about 5mm in accordance with UIAA-125.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 17, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
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Two problems with this testing is that you have now foobared the cable where the test perlon went through. More than likely the cable now has a permanent a crimp in it which you do not want. This has now weaken the cable. And because the cable is covered you can not easily inspect it to see if any of the individual stands have broken which they can do over time.
The proper way to test these would be to have a round jig fitted into the cable loop so that this does not happen.
The other problem is that the perlon breaking strength numbers are the MINIMUM breaking strength. I have seen perlon break at twice its minimum strength when pull tested properly. Further, because you introduced a very small bend into the perlon it may have well broken at below its minimum strength. Knots can often weaked the perlon to as much as 50% (I would have to dig for the exact numbers) So in reality you have no idea what loads the cams were subjected to.
IMHO you just blew three cams ;-).
EDIT: a follow up to this Q&A which shows a huge deficency. This answer is BS. There is no way that you know this as the plastic has not been removed as such not even a simple visual inspection of the cable has been perform. DIY crap like this is how people get themselves killed. And there are things worse than death - like having to drink your beer through a straw and not being able to wipe your own butt.
> Are the crimps in the cables just cosmetic dents in the plastic?
>>Yes it is cometic dents. The cable is fine. At 1700lb, the plastic just cannot handle that pressure.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
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Walter: the 6mm to 1600lbs+/- thing is pretty good... did you have any way of testing the actual breaking strength in the testing configuration? Some stuff going on there to skew the numbers, as the small radius of the wire/plastic loop, the actual loop of perlon since I think the 1600lbs is single strand BS, etc.
I'll look around here and see if I have any 6mm and repeat your setup and try to get a number. I'm a bit worried that you might be overtesting the units. Cool test anyway.
Edit: I was typing over ScaredSilly, and have some of the same concerns. Good points SS.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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if you fall on a cam, and the have the 'biner through the cable loop, do you retire the cam cause you just bent the cable around the 'biner radius?
probably not. Should you?
my guess is that the test can be easily modified so that the pull is no more damaging then "normal" usage.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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That alien just looks broken in. My look worse from bounce testing while aiding.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 17, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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Perlon way tighter radius than biner. Would think
that would make a difference. I've never "crimped"
a clipin loop in a normal fall like that Alien
from the test looks.
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S Kraft
Trad climber
jacksonville nc
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May 17, 2007 - 02:48pm PT
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Fellow Climbers,
Looking over all the evidence one would conclude that all the cams are suspect at best, I really love these cams and have been using these devices for 14 yrs now. I am going to shift to other trusted brands that I already have on my rack, they have evolved to fit the bill that was once only covered by aliens in the past. This sport is dangerous enough and does not lend too many second chances once the chain of events start to unravel, to have to worry about weather or not your cam is going to explode when you are placing in a spicy spot is something I won’t deal with, I don’t plan to fall but should I fall, how far do I fall?
Steve K
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
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May 17, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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I know of other individuals who have load tested with similar results. There are distributers who have pulled the product from their inventory. Why is everyone doing CCH work for them?
Obviously their manufacturing has serious quality control issues. This equipment isnt like selling hats where if it falls off your head you just pick it up.
It's time for CCH to answer some questions and take the appropriate action as a responsible manufacture of a life safety product. God knows enough can go wrong without some assistance.
Berg Heil,
Charlie D.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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May 17, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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does anyone have an idea of CCH's testing methods? what are they doing to complete their tensile testing?
is it worthwhile?
if their gear manufacturing methods are such crap at the point, can i trust their ability to run a test?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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May 17, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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Abe... great questions. I have no idea on the first 3, but I think I can answer the last one: No.
--->Bob
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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"It's time for CCH to answer some questions and take the appropriate action as a responsible manufacture of a life safety product."
That time and opportunity window was a year ago - now that time has past. At this point everyone would be best served if CCH simply shut down or sold out. The process of selling a company, however, is a fairly rigorous financial and legal process that, given basic QC seems to be escaping them, would seem equally beyond their reach.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 17, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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That's says something coming from you, healyje, as IIRC, you were really going to bat for them (with them?) acting in good faith fixing stuff before.
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waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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May 17, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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@Scared Silly : you are right I don't known if the cable is in good condition. I should use a device to avoid that that crimp in the
cable.
Since I am not a Professional tester/QA/metallurgist, I'm just
doing my best.
Just want to share the way I test them. That's true it is not THE
perfect system. Boku system is far better but I don't have $$$ to
invest in such rig
Cheers,
Edit: BTW, all my cams have been tested by CCH in Dec 2006. But I'am doing this test myself for a peace of mind. BUT now I' thinking of getting something else (C3 or WC, DMM)..
Scared Silly, do you want to buy mine ? ;-)
@Russ : Please come back to us with the value of those 6mm perlon strength.
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Bo Jespersen
Trad climber
Mt. Vernon, Maine
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May 17, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
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This is the response I got today from CCH. After the informative posts these last few days I had to check it out. Seems painless enough and I will sleep better at night. I am sending mine in ASAP! Thanx all!
P>S I have taken a head first whipper on the orange alien and it only smiled when I took a peek at its position, so I guess you could say I am biased....
Dear Bo Jespersen,
you can send your aliens to us for repair, but we will test these aliens, of course.
A price for new wires is $10.00 of each alien, new sling - $ 4.00 of each(including shipping)
Best regards,
Nadia.
-----Original Message
From: bojen@adelphia.net
To: cchaliens@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 17 May 2007 8:08 AM
Subject: gettin' worried
Howdy,
I have been a long time owner of aliens and have trouble thinking of life w/o them! But, as a new dad, I am concerned now. New posts on Supertopo are not encouraging! My cams do not have the dimple and I understand that makes them "safe". But, mine are 5+ yrs old and was wondering if I could get them tested for cable strength and get some new slings sewn on? What am I looking at for cost and turn around time. I own all colors and doubles of everything up to yellow. I have a trip planned in 0ne month, can you make it?
Thanks in advance,
Bo Jespersen
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 07:47pm PT
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Melissa, I would like to think I that last year I was simply attempting to be an objective voice as someone with some understanding of manufacturing and QC systems. At the time I felt the situation was such that it could be reasonable addressed with the appropriate combination of effective communication and formal QC protocols. Both of those have proven to be either simply beyond CCH's scope of interest or beyond their capabilities.
The bottom line now is that they haven't been able to consistently implement whatever QC protocols they did put in place and their communcation is as abysmal and ineffective as ever. The latter is regrettable, the former is inexcusable. I believe they had an opportunity to get their house in order, address these problems, and put this whole affair behind them and failed to take advantage of it. I suspect what will happen is they will simply continue as ever given it appears to be all they know how to do. Someone could sue them to force them out of business as I suspect they have neither cash for a defense, assets of any value, and no insurance to go after.
Any retailer who continues to sell them at this point is doing themselves and their customers no good service. I would not do business with any such company. CCH can of course always continue to sell them direct on-line, but then at least you'd have to seek them out and only you and CCH would bear the responsibility at that point.
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fassett
Trad climber
tucson
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May 17, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
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A friend and I just finished some impromptu testing of CCH Aliens in actual rock placements. The cams ranged in size and age (both pre and post recall). We yanked on them using a car - and while we don't have a dynamometer (yet) I can tell you that the force was much greater than what you'd get in a typical climbing fall: the car was often yanked backward, the knots in the climbing rope were completely impossible to untie, and the 31-kN carabiner we were using was deformed.
Bottom line: the cams were bomber. There were no cable or brazing failures. In all cases where we pulled to failure, the ROCK failed before the cams did. (These were solid placements in good quality granite.) The cables were all twisted up, the lobes badly deformed (and inverted as the rock blew apart), and the loops pulled into wild shapes - but NO brazing failures, NO cable failure. Just lots of rock dust.
We'll post photos and links to videos as we have time, but you can look at some of the initial photos at at www.geir.com/aliens/
STOP THE WITCH HUNT!
JF
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 08:29pm PT
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It isn't a witch hunt and I'd expect your results when testing 999 out of a 1000 cams - but that isn't the point. The point is they are shipping that 1 out of a 1000 cam because their QC is incapable of identifying it. How about we do some more testing with a random selection of 100 10/05 cams and you take a 40 foot dive on them where if it fails you deck?
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 17, 2007 - 09:00pm PT
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Earlier, "fassett" wrote:
> A friend and I just finished some impromptu
> testing of CCH Aliens in actual rock placements...
>
> ...we don't have a dynamometer (yet)...
>
> ...Bottom line: the cams were bomber....
>
> ...you can look at some of the initial
> photos at at www.geir.com/aliens/
>
> STOP THE WITCH HUNT!
So:
* You tested a few representative samples
* All of them held unknown loadings that are thought to be above their ratings
* So all untested Aliens must be fine
* And therefore the current concern about Aliens that have demonstrated failure below their rating is baseless Internet-driven hysteria.
Do I understand that correctly?
Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.
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rockgeir
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 17, 2007 - 09:27pm PT
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No, Bob, we just thought it would be nice to do testing of our own and report some positive stuff for a change.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 17, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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Fasset - I'll tell the guy here in Phx with the plate in his head that that Alien that blew apart on him when he hung on it was all a big dream...
Nobody's saying they're ALL bunk, but if you can't tell the bunk from the good stuff, then it ain't worth risking your neck on. I think if you've gotten them reliably pull tested, they're fine to use, but trusting them without a checkout is just plain nutz at this point.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 17, 2007 - 11:04pm PT
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Pull testing doesn't mean sh#t anymore. Since there seems to be such a large variety of failures with a wide range of failure tension......
Just 'cause you pull test to 1000 just means it pull tested to 1000 that one time. Might fail the next time. Might not. Might fail at 1050 pounds.
Face it, they're unreliable, unpredictable, garbage. It just doesn't make sense when there are other options out there.
And this from someone who used to love them....
Damn shame....
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 17, 2007 - 11:16pm PT
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Hey euro-brief-guy,
Chez shouldn't be hanging on any piece at this point.
Thanks for the data Russ. This information may come in handy when you and I run up Astroman!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2007 - 11:36pm PT
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Please send me all your unwanted aliens. Thanks in advance.
E-mail me for my address.
Bob
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 17, 2007 - 11:53pm PT
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Clearly, any Aliens that test good probably are. I wouldn't hesitate to use any of my two sets of hybrids. But again, that's not the issue - the issue is their inability to execute with consistent quality on any scale. I won't be surprised if CCH stays in business selling direct to a small cadre of loyalists and their followers who are personally capable of managing the uncertainty clearly associated with CCH's product. In fact, I'd say CCH only got in trouble because they took on a big-box retail contract with REI and got way, way over-extended. Had they kept to their roots and not put themselves under the enormous pressure of that demand they wouldn't be in this very sad situation today.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2007 - 12:03am PT
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"Fasset - I'll tell the guy here in Phx with the plate in his head that that Alien that blew apart on him when he hung on it was all a big dream... "
If you're going to dog on Aliens or any other piece of trad gear you're gambling hard to begin with. Treating trad gear like bolts is not a great idea. Double bummer in this case, that the Alien blew, but there have been several deckings recently with calamatous results where the gear was functional, but the placements went bad after hanging on them a couple of times. This is getting to be a common problem with folks crossing over from sport to trad, but still using sport tactics.
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MikeL
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 11:24am PT
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Healyje said, "any Aliens that test good probably are."
Maybe not. After reading many of these posts, I noticed that no one claimed to be an expert on the subject, so I got some professional courtesy at the university where I teach here in Silicon Valley. I found a professor in mechanical engineering who specializes in material failures, and I took my aliens to the prof. That professor said we could test them in the lab next week, but was pretty adamant about me not climbing on the gear after we tested it. The prof said that if the brazing was poor or improperly done, then testing the gear could weaken the brazing even if it passed a test at the limit. On the other hand, this person said, if the brazing were done correctly, then testing wouldn't make any difference. I don't know what kind of machine we'll use next week, but the prof said that we might be able to see from the graphical display on the machine whether there were minor failures in the brazing.
So, as I understand the prof, even if an alien passes an impromptu test such as many people are performing, it may not mean anything and could even weaken an already poorly brazed cam.
To me, this further underscores the importance of a statistically (e.g., six sigma) managed process rather than just testing each cam. This information from the prof may also explain why BD does not test each cam at the limit.
I'm not sure what to do personally. I'm currently thinking that if any cam fails, then I'll take a sledge hammer to them all. (No I won't send any of them to you--I don't like the karmic implications.) I'll report the results of the tests.
Regards,
MikeL
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 18, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Wow...thanks for the extra info MikeL. I've been on the fence about how I want to test mine since if I do something greivous to my units, I'm not sure I won't be less comfortable instead of more. Let us know what you find out!
When Kate took her big fall a couple of years ago, she lightly bounced on the rivet hanger that broke when she got on it. A concern, though unverified, was that the wire slipped through the swage in the testing and cut loose when she actually got on it. That's the sort of thing that I'm scared of here...it pulls a litte, a little more...and when you go to actually use it, it's on the edge and ready to pop out.
I went to Golden Gate Wall and bounced my aliens for all I was worth yesterday and discovered that I'm not capable of bouncing very hard. I had a hell of a time breaking my accessory cord 'draws', and when they did blow, I'm pretty sure it was just cumultive sawing at the knot. No cam heads came flying off under body weight at least!
I did get lots of interesting looks from commuters, joggers, and cyclists since I'm sure I looked like I was having a psychotic fit on a city street.
Your prof. friend confirming what my gut felt...that testing could be worse than nothing...is sort of a last straw for me. Plus my bf has had it too and put in the vote for a set of small QCed cams. Even if my aliens are still where it's at on an aid climb w/ lots of pin scars, I'll be psyched to be able to place a more reliable cam for pro when the rock allows.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 18, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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"further underscores the importance of a statistically (e.g., six sigma) managed process rather than just testing each cam"
Keep in mind unless your professor has worked in a factory with his butt on the line for quality, I would submit that his non-professional opinion on the matter is purely academic. Repeating CCH's test will only tell you what everyone already knows. Measuring strain, as it sound like your professor also wants to do, will be a rat hole. Good luck determining which part in the assy is stretching - probably the plastic on the thumb loop.
To clarify, the "correct" six sigma (SPC, 3 sigma, ISO, whatever..) impelemtation would be to test the brazes to breaking on some statistically significant number of joints. Variation would be tracked, studied and minimized. I haven't really read anything about this happening. I have read that he loads the brazed joints to some load, and has broken a few finished assemblies - but neither of these things really say much. By breaking the braze joints (actually, he should redesign the joint to get rid of the braze, but that's a different discussion), only then would he get on the path to having some level of assurance that ALL braze joints are in fact "good" to some acceptable level of confidence. Also - in fact one may find that the failure mode during such tests is that the steel cable is what usually breaks. This is okay, too, just slightly different statistical calculations. But, I would personally want to fixture that thing so the joint was taking the max stress I could give it. The "6" in six sigma is really a statement about variation - the real cause of all these problems. However, braze = variation, which is why they are rarely used in safety critical applications. Take a look around for plenty of examples.
JLP
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 18, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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If you're going to dog on Aliens or any other piece of trad gear you're gambling hard to begin with. Treating trad gear like bolts is not a great idea. Double bummer in this case, that the Alien blew, but there have been several deckings recently with calamatous results where the gear was functional, but the placements went bad after hanging on them a couple of times. This is getting to be a common problem with folks crossing over from sport to trad, but still using sport tactics.
I'm not sure what your driving at here... in the case of the guy with the plate in his head, the Alien completely failed, it didn't come out of the crack. He's not a sport climber, and his placement was not the problem.
Given that hanging on them produces far less dynamic and general load on the piece than it is "supposed" to handle, then if you've placed it correctly and the rock is not suspect you shouldn't have anything to worry about. That's probably what most of us believe, right? I think given a piece that's supposed to be able to handle a load of 2000+ lbs should be able to handle me hanging on it as long as the rock around it holds. I'm not a big hang dogger, but that's sort of academic to to the argument. If you're pretty much rolling the dice every time you even hang on a cam (given a reasonable knowledge of placing gear in good rock - and assuming it's NOT and Alien), then we all better just hang it up now and get some golf clubs.
I'm also pretty sure that if the piece does blow, then climbers are going to be far more willing to accept personal responsibility for the incident when they don't have to look back up at the crack and see half their cam still up there and the other half on the deck with them. This was the case with the guy here in Phx, by the way. The Alien blew at the braze.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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"If you're pretty much rolling the dice every time you even hang on a cam (given a reasonable knowledge of placing gear in good rock), then we all better just hang it up now and get some golf clubs."
My point wasn't about experienced trad climbers who, for whatever reason, occasionally end up on a piece whether by falling or resting. The comment is about a growing trend of the last several years related to people newly crossing over from sport to trad who still attempt to "work" routes as if they were bolted by repeatedly resting on points of protection. Carrying over this tactic from sport climbing is inherently risky if you don't recheck and possibly reset a piece after each and every time you weight it and then climb off of it. Many of these crossover climbers are instead repeatedly dogging on gear without so much as glancing at it between goes. Each year this ill-advised practice grows and so do the number accidents which can be directly attributed to it.
Now the fellow you cite in PHX may or may not have been 'dogging' on the Alien in this manner, but my point was that doing so with any placement is a risky proposition unless you check it each and every time you unweight and climb past it again - or if you're simply really, really unlucky and the [single] piece you decide to rest on is a bogus piece of shite.
[Edit:] With regards to individual vs. statistical quality control methods - given the current situation and the fact folks own individual cams, testing them is a no brainer regardless of the comments this engineering academic. The assertion that reasonable testing is going to weaken them is both unreasonable and weak itself as far as I'm concerned. Test them or toss them - but climbing on untested Aliens at this point is flat out stupid. Six Sigma, WCM, or other recognized statistical QC methods should definitely be employed in the manufacture of any such gear, but it has already been clearly established that isn't going to happen in this particular small craft shop.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 18, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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Gotcha. I hear ya...you can't just bounce on the thing and then not make sure you're okay for the next round.
Guy in question climbed up, got a little pumped, put in the Alien, hung on it, blow, crater. He wasn't repeatedly hammering on it.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 18, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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fasset"A friend and I just finished some impromptu testing of CCH Aliens in actual rock placements. The cams ranged in size and age (both pre and post recall). We yanked on them using a car - and while we don't have a dynamometer (yet) I can tell you that the force was much greater than what you'd get in a typical climbing fall: the car was often yanked backward, the knots in the climbing rope were completely impossible to untie, and the 31-kN carabiner we were using was deformed.
Bottom line: the cams were bomber. There were no cable or brazing failures. In all cases where we pulled to failure, the ROCK failed before the cams did. (These were solid placements in good quality granite.) The cables were all twisted up, the lobes badly deformed (and inverted as the rock blew apart), and the loops pulled into wild shapes - but NO brazing failures, NO cable failure. Just lots of rock dust.
We'll post photos and links to videos as we have time, but you can look at some of the initial photos at at www.geir.com/aliens/
STOP THE WITCH HUNT!
JF "
This is not a witch hunt. Its about confidence in the gear on your rack. If the leader does not have confidence in that gear then WTF good is it. Climbing is hard enough without throwing some homemade cams on your rack and expecting to live through it.
I am still waiting for the bodies to start stacking up like cordwood though....
It may well be just a few select aliens that are failing, but most of us dont want to find out the hard way if that cam is on our rack....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
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"Climbing is hard enough without throwing some homemade cams on your rack and expecting to live through it."
Unless of course, you are master Blinny.
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wildone
climber
Isolated in El Portal and loving it
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May 18, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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I like these little buggers-
I mean, hot damn!
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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May 18, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Zeros are such crap. Word on the street is that some company is going to making some cams alot like aliens in the near future. If they can mimic the aliens closely enough and gurantee quality its adios aliens. Until then, the king (red alien) and queen (yellow alien) of my rack are going to stay right where they are.
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jstan
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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Good points are being made but the discussion does not seem to be leading anywhere.
1. When you are at a bad point and you begin worrying about your equipment, you are letting your equipment become a barrier to your climbing. Better off to develop a safe form of climbing that does not use that equipment at all.
2. Be very careful about using personal safety equipment made by someone with no attachable assets. What other corners might you suppose are being cut? Such as taking contracts that cannot be met without distorting the manufacturing process.
3. The best time to test is during the product design phase. Unreliable portions of the design need to be entirely eliminated. They must be eliminated.
Forty years ago we saw all kinds of new equipment coming into use. “Friends” were the most complicated and some of us just did not use them until they had been in use for several years. For the rest we had to dream up an approach for the ex post facto testing being discussed on this thread. As many of you realize, there is no good answer. It is usually our assumptions that get us in the end, so I asked myself what I was assuming. I was assuming I knew the forces regularly developed in practice. So I set up commonly encountered lead situations and began throwing a 165# dufflebag filled with shale and tied in with a swami off an overhanging wall. To get the peak load I designed and calibrated a simple little load cell. My idea was that at some point amidst the drama of squealing ropes and ripping pins I would decide what kinds of falls there was no way I would ever expose myself. I got much more. I also learned how to drop those forces by a good factor of two. Then I took the little hydraulic rig I had built out onto the cliff and started testing both the equipment and the placements. By the time I was done I knew pretty well where I stood, without taking a whole lot on faith.
As I said, there is no good answer. I was pretty satisfied, however, with the answer I found.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 18, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
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jstan,
ever write it up? sounds like a great report and a good way forward on this important topic.
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jstan
climber
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May 18, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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Ed:
I did write it up and circulated it at the time but I would not republish it now. I think my point is it really is the responsibility of each person to go beyond statements made by manufacturers and to go beyond common practice. We all do things differently so what is safe for one person may not be safe for another. Nothing beats going out, getting your hands dirty and actually seeing where the things you do may fail.
I never did make serious use of the movable cam nuts. Were I to consider this I would first subject them to the dufflebag test with them, among other things, pointing away from the expected force.
This is OT but yesterday's content on ST was insanely good. This crew is really getting the drill down. Monty Python - watch out.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 18, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
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Earlier, Healyje wrote:
> The assertion that reasonable testing is going to
> weaken them is both unreasonable and weak itself
> as far as I'm concerned.
I concur. The consensus within the industry seems to be that testing to 50% of load rating is acceptably non-destructive. Commercially available carabiners are usually individually tested to 50% gate-closed rating.
My own policy is to retire every piece of gear that I test to greater than 50% rating. Usually I just pull it to bits and record the ultimate failure load and failure mode.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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If only people would pay as much attention to managing the "real" hazards in climbing "fatigue and inattention" there would be far fewer injuries.
Not that this isn't important, it just that folks consistently downplay and ignore the actions that are more likely to bust you in favor of those things that they can touch and yank.
Beware of the long drive home after the epic.
Just a reminder for perspective
Peace
Karl
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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May 18, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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Karl,
I absolutely agree that too much attention goes into yammering about objective hazards, and not enough on subjective hazards. I also agree that driving home after a long day climbing has increased risk due to fatigue and similar factors.
But, one of the other things I do besides climbing is to mess around with gliders. And it is also said in that sport that the most dangerous part is driving to the airport. Here's an article that suggests that that claim is too far from the truth:
http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/safety-comes-first-e.html
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 18, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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Yeah, the real danger is that rockclimbing is a "Gateway" activity. We risk getting involved in ice climbing and Himalayan mountaineering. That's where you really stick your neck out. Rockclimbing mostly "Seems" dangerous.
Peace
karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 18, 2007 - 08:28pm PT
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Too much contemplation of the infinite while in India, Baba. All is an illusion until it seems to bite you on the ass but good!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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May 18, 2007 - 09:40pm PT
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An earlier post said something about what a bad idea it is to treat trad gear like bolts, as if a bolt is guaranteed to hold. I will always trust a piece of gear I just put in more than something I just came across. I have never really made the leap to sport climbing and one of the reasons has always been trusting my life to a questionable bolt placement. In my local area a lot of the sport climbing takes place on welded volcanic tuff. The surface of it can be very hard with the underlying material being of very low density and much softer, my point being that in such rock a bolt will always be questionable. Even if were the most bomber granite, you dont know who placed it, or if they were any good at placing bolts. As most who have placed a bolt know it requires a certain amount of skill, and I think it behooves you to consider that when your clipping them. Trusting your life to one of anything is not the best idea, I bet the dude that splattered onto Eagle Ledge will agree. Just my opinion. Nick
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2007 - 10:49pm PT
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Earlier in the thread someone asked about testing some 6mm: 6mm is rated to around 1600lbs single strand. Loop strength is almost double this save for thin edges and bad knots. EDIT: after looking around a bit, I'm not too sure on that 1600lbs number provided by car-jack-guy. Fish TechWeenie says 2530lbs (what are they on???), PMI says 1523, Blue Water says 1800, Mammut says 1792, unknown says 2265 and Alex over at Cascade Climbers says 1000. Fishermans knots will yield about 60% to 70% of the loop strength.... hmmm.... look into it if you care.
Overhand knot pre-test in 6mm perlon. I thought that this should start rolling the knot at about 1000lbs.... it did.... it was pulled between two biners and finally pulled through at 1900.lbs.
A double fisherman knot on one side and a single fisherman knot on the other side. Pulled between two biners.
The single fisherman side pulled through and stripped the core out of the cord at 3000lbs.
This is the Alien Simulator. Sure it ain't exactly the same as an Alien, but it will do. Cable is 5/32" and tubing is some fairly bogus poly stuff. The Alien stuff is much tougher.
Pre-test set up. Other end of the perlon is put through a Mussy Hook to give it a larger diameter surface to test against.
After the test. Perlon broke at the tubing/cable. It failed at 2000lbs.
The cable had some deformation and the tubing was cut through. Do I think it weakened the cable? Perhaps yes... but probably very minimal. No cable strands were visibly damaged and the kink was not that severe. Jerking wireds out is probably harder on cable than this test.
Thoughts:
So... the guy doing the homebrew test with the carjack and 6mm probably pulled them there Aliens to somewhere upwards of 2000-2500lbs. His pics showed that the plastic dealeo over the cable was not worn through.... this is a good thing because when nylon meets raw cable, it cuts real quick. This is a bad thing cause them Aliens really got the shiit pulled out of them.... maybe even higher than my numbers. But, this is a good thing because now he knows the heads did not pop off... but this is a bad thing because now they have possibly be compromised by the giant load.... oh what to do???????? I'd use them.... not sure how attached you guys are to this world, so YMMV.
Third times a charm edit:
Someone looked it up and provided this chart on rc.com:
These are the tensile strengths of some popular manufacturers, the first set of numbers being for 6mm and the second being 7mm.
Sterling = 6mm 2630lbs (11.7kn) - 7mm 3210lbs (14.2kn)
Blue Water = 6mm 1700lbs (7.72kn) ñ 7mm 2600lbs (11kn)
Mammut = 6mm 1800lbs (8kn) ñ 7mm 2430lbs (10.8kn)
PMI = 6mm 1550lbs (6.8kn) - 7mm 2,100lbs (9.3kn)
And then Clyde Soles, former gear guru at Rock and Ice called bullshiit on the Sterling claimed breaking strength.
Thread here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=587884;search_string=6mm%20strength;#587884
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rockgeir
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 18, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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Here's our original post a link to our initial results:
A friend and I just finished some impromptu testing of CCH Aliens in actual rock placements. The cams ranged in size and age (both pre and post recall). We yanked on them using a car - and while we don't have a dynamometer (yet) I can tell you that the force was much greater than what you'd get in a typical climbing fall: the car was often yanked backward, the knots in the climbing rope were completely impossible to untie, and the 31-kN carabiner we were using was deformed.
Bottom line: the cams were bomber. There were no cable or brazing failures. In all cases where we pulled to failure, the ROCK failed before the cams did. (These were solid placements in good quality granite.) The cables were all twisted up, the lobes badly deformed (and inverted as the rock blew apart), and the loops pulled into wild shapes - but NO brazing failures, NO cable failure. Just lots of rock dust.
*You can look at some of the initial results with photos and videos at http://www.geir.com/aliens.html *
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 19, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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rockgeir,
As was said the last time you posted your 'results' - they are exactly what one would expect - that's because the problem isn't with the 999 out of a 1000 that are bomb; it's with the 1 out of a 1000 that is shite that keeps making it out the door. Exactly which part of that don't you understand?
-
Hell, Russ, I have a set of HB Alloy nuts that have been used for aid for awhile that look worse than that and I'm not retiring them any time soon. One of the bummers in all this was several of us tried to get REI and another big box retailer to destructively test a statistically significant quantity of all the Aliens that were returned in the recall - unbelieveably, both showed zero interest in pursuing any such effort. In fact, Aliens reappeared on many of their shelves not long afterwards. All in all it was a pathetic display of the decline of two organizations that at one point actually could have been accused of giving a damn.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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May 19, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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What do we know about BD or metolious or Wild Country's QC standards? Do they pass ISO 9000 or Six Sigma?
wait, nevermind.
BD and WC both proudly state being iso 9001 and 3 sigma certified.
metolious makes no mention of an QC.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 19, 2007 - 10:31am PT
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I used to live in a place that started having a pretty bad crime problem. So I got a concealed carry permit and started carrying a gun everyday. The crime got worse and I started practicing drawing and shooting quickly.
Then one day I had a moment of clarity and I said to myself "Why the f*#k am I living here?" And so I moved to where I don't need to carry a gun.
The same sort of moment of clarity occured to me in my front yard with a hi-lift jack rigged up with heavy chain around various trees and boulders with an Alien suspended in the middle of my pull test rig under 1000 pounds of force...
"WTF am I doing this for?!"
And so I bought C3's.....
-Fear
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Andrew
Trad climber
Marin
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May 19, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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I guess you can add me to the list of people who use to love his aliens. I just returned all the 2004+ Aliens, even out of the recall range, to REI. I got the C3's instead. I'm keeping my old ones. You'll have to yank them out of my cold lifeless hands because I'm not given them up.
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rockgeir
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 19, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
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healyje,
the page that the link takes you to mentions specifically that the results are not conclusive for all aliens. for that, we'd need a huge representative sample, measured, repeatable testing, statistical analysis, etc.
as i clearly stated on this page, our goal was to post some positive stuff for a change. the fact that we got to pull test some cams in actual placements was a neat plus.
if you want to do something helpful, it would be great if you visit CCH, take 100,000 randomly-selected units from their current production, pull test them all with a quality dynamometer, calculate a mean failure strength/standard deviation for each size, and publish your results.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 19, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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For those who think a bit of gear they just placed is better than a bolt, I hope those same people check that piece after every fall, cause I have seen pieces fail after holding three falls. Of course the leader didn't check le gear after his falls.
Actually I've seen two pieces fail consecutively twice, so that two pieces between you and the ground is not such a good rule of thumb.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 19, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
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I haven't digested all of this thread as it is a big one. The crux of CCH's production soldering problems seem to be a lack of a visually inspectable solder outlet hole to verify that solder flow and penetration are comprehensive. Is this the case? I don't see a solder mark on the units that I own. The soldered connection on older tech Friends, for instance, clearly shows a solid filled transverse outlet hole as evidence of a complete and thorough solder job. Without an outlet/ vent hole, the solder relies on flux to flow and can be thwarted by premature cooling or air pockets. This would certainly explain the incomplete soldering on the failed units. What is the manufacturer's take on this aspect of production?
This issue may have already been raised but is worth some discussion.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 19, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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The manufacturer's head is planted firmly in the sand. That's their take on it.
Reason enough not to use their stuff....
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brendodb
Trad climber
Jersey
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May 19, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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I'm offering $12 for any and all Aliens...
Email sizes/dates, I'll pay shipping.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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May 19, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
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Andrew, how did returning them to REI work out? I'd love to take all of mine back and get store credit, that would pretty much seal the deal for me. Did they take them without receipts and all of that jazz?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 19, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Still have not recieved any unwanted aliens yet.
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Andrew
Trad climber
Marin
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May 19, 2007 - 05:36pm PT
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Landgolier, I had thought I purchased those Aliens at REI but the cashier couldn't find them on my list of purchases associated with my member ID. She gave me store credit instead of cash back which was fine by me. I just turned around and purchased the 0, 1 and 2 C3's.
If you do return them to REI, make sure if they are within the recall date, to tell them that. The cashier will mark them defective and make sure they don't get put in the used gear sale.
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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May 20, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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I'm feeling much, much, much better about my Aliens now.
Even though I had sent all mine in to CCH last summer and they were officially stamped "tensile tested", I have no confidence in them given the numerous failures taking place. Protection should inspire confidence or what good is it? I couldn't imagine being run out or climbing above a ledge with only one piece between me and disaster and having it be an alien. Cranking on them in my garage with a car jack would only add more doubt.
Now I'm debating on getting more Metolious TCUs which I've always been a big fan of because of their great trigger action and durability or trying out the C3's.
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MikeL
climber
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May 21, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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Melissa, et. al.,
I have nothing definitive to report, because I am not getting the cams tested by the university. If anything, the below information will only make the situation more ambiguous.
The ME prof wrote me this weekend:
----------------------------------------
Mike,
I am available Friday afternoon to test one cam, but I want to be clear about what I think about testing it.
I do not think you should use the cam again after testing it. Since the failure is occurring at a brazed joint, we might damage the joint by loading it, and we might not know that we have damaged it. Every cam will be different. Since the failure is occurring at a brazed joint, there is no way to know after testing one cam how the others will behave. I am also unable to evaluate whether the way we will be loading the cam is similar to how it is used in service. Different loading conditions will cause different mechanical behavior.
I don't want to do this if your plan is to use the cam after we test it.
XXXXXX
--------------------
I was disappointed, and I wanted a second opinion. I got one from another prof in the same department this morning. He wanted to test all my cams to failure, and he reiterated the other professor's concern (although not nearly so adamant about what my decision should be) that the cams could be weakened from testing. More important to him is that we could never know if we did damage or not.
Stumped, I asked for names of testing engineering companies, and got two from him. The first is certified, but he told me I would not be able to afford them. The second (BAE Systems), I was told, was more moderately priced and close by, so I went and talked to two supervisors in its metallography lab--but those guys and their buildings looked way beyond my league. Those guys were really nice and truly interested in the issue, but they estimated a minimal investigation would cost me $3,000 - $5,000. (I'm unwilling to make the financial contribution.) They were thinking it would be good to test to failure, x-ray the cams, bisect the cams, etc. (but we needed to talk to their lab expert in that area). I asked them what they thought about the two professors' thoughts about testing weakening bad brazes, and they thought those beliefs were very reasonable.
Well, I'm all done with this. I've made my contribution (time and contacts). I've not helped much to determine what to do. Sorry.
Any of my efforts can be reproduced by anyone who has contacts in a research university or with a recognized mechanical engineering firm that has testing equipment. (It's not like there are only a handful of those.)
As for the academics I talked to being in an ivory tower, both seem to be doing a lot of consulting (I overheard a few telephone conversations). The company appears to be a major defense contactor with lots of experience in design and materials. The two guys I talked to there said with glee they had a huge lab devoted to tearing stuff apart and figuring out what goes wrong. Neither were kids.
Both professors talked at length about the importance of third-party, certified testing for items that were safety related. These are the accrediations I heard bandied about for third-party, certified testing: I.A.S., ISO 17025, ISO 17020, AASHTO, AWS, I.C.C., DSA.
Regards,
MikeL
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Dawson
Trad climber
Oakland, CA
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May 22, 2007 - 01:42am PT
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They sound like typical academics making a fairly simple matter overly complex and waffling when it comes to translating theory into practice. The worry that testing something may damage it is fairly amusing. If this is the case, why should we test anything? Surely, testing the testing of cams is not constrained by some variant of the Uncertainty Principle.
Testing, bisecting, and x-raying the cams may be useful from the standpoint of manufacturing, but I think the people to whom you spoke are overthinking this.
I think that most of us are just looking for a simple smell test, or a sanity check. To me, I would be happy if I could send my cams somewhere where that would put them in a crack of some sort and hang 1500 pounds from them. Did you inquire about anything like that? I, like you, do not have the time nor the means to do this myself or I would.
Does anyone know a place that would do that? I wonder where MGear got it done during the first AlienGate.
My Aliens are going to be on an extended vacation unless I can send them somewhere for a pull test. I picked up a C3 to see what I think of them before I get more.
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iceravine
Ice climber
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May 22, 2007 - 08:57am PT
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That Alien looks like it was used for propecting as a hammmer..?Really a rat.Where was it found ? I mean man look at all those cables on it!Split and torn up as if it was used as a funkness tool.
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Roman
Trad climber
DC
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May 22, 2007 - 09:07am PT
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MikeL: The second professor was less adamant about you using your cams afterward because he was planning on testing them all to FAILURE. At best you will be walking away with a handful of warped lobes and blown apart cams. I don't think you would WANT to even use them after that would ya?
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MikeL
climber
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May 22, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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Dawson:
Yeah. Perhaps that's the kind of testing (a simple smell test) all cam manufacturers should use. (Sorry, I think that's how we got here.) BTW, the guys at BAE Systems were hardly academic. They seemed like fairly typical engineers to me.
When it comes to safety issues (medicine, aircraft, climbing equipment, automobiles, environmental protection, etc.), I like those that affect my life dealt with thoughtfully, carefully, and systematically.
Roman:
I was not clear. Testing to failure was what the 2nd prof wanted to do. To test only to 3/4s of the rating (my plan) brought his comment about not using the cams afterward (although less adamantly as the first prof). We talked considerably more than only what I wrote above.
Regards,
MikeL
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 22, 2007 - 11:47am PT
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I continue to be astounded that there has not been a single public statement made by CCH other than something about waiting for a broken cam to be tested. So lame.
C'mon, man. You've got a huge number of people who *want* to believe that you're going to do the right thing and get this taken care of. Even this late in the game, after so much silence and a bunch of failures. WTF is wrong with you!?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 22, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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The soldering methodology is still the crux of the biscuit here.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 22, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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MikeL, the replies you got from the profs and the company are quite reasonable. I have done some testing on gear over the years - none in the last 15 though as I have stepped away from mechanical engineering.
Think of it this way - you are giving them a single smple that they know nothing about and having them pull test it. As was noted they were not even sure about whether the way they would test would be similar to the way the cam would be used in practice. Yeah that sounds pretty rattlely - but I can understand it. During some of our tests things happened and the sample was screwed - back to the drawing board.
I know this sucks and for folks like yourself, walter (car jack guy), and others who are concerned about your gear. Your thoughts are in the right place.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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May 22, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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I tested all of mine to 3 or 4 kN. Didn't need any special equipment. Cost me 15 cents. I suppose if I'd wanted, I could have tested them to double that. That might have cost me 30 cents.
GO
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 22, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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Hey,
Fondling my C3's here,
How does Black Diamond attach their SS cables to the fittings on the C3's? Some kind of welding I'd assume but I was curious. They all look very clean, not like they're not done by weed-smoking dudes in a garage hung over from the night before with 1000 unit order from REI that has to go out that afternoon..... Couldn't CCH use this technology to make the Aliens, in addition to modern manufacturing protocols and new management.... Looks like a very similiar fitting.
-Fear
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rockgeir
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 26, 2007 - 01:36am PT
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Does anyone know if the Souders Crack cam has been sent to a metallurgist? If it hasn't, does anyone know why?
Geir
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 27, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Hey Geir- Why wait for Godot? Aliens in your head are the worst of all while free climbing. The things ain't trustworthy to fall on until proven otherwise. Aid only gizmos IMO.
Cheers-Steve
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 27, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHA, oh my.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Ahem.
Cough.
OK.
I just LOVE that some people can still want a destructive test after more htan one ME prof (that's a guy with a Ph.D in making things and understanding why they work and why they fail) has said that destructive testing is NO GOOD for items you intend to keep using.
Go back ye of little faith, and read the part about X-rays. See, X-rays would show problems with the joint like the ones found in these failed aliens, without compromising the cam. (For CCH there seem to hvae been a lot of failures, and maybe some of those problems would not show on X-rays.)
BTW, NON-DESTRUCTIVE TESTING HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, it's not a new thing, but I guess for you whose minds are still in the 12th century you need something you can see and feel, as opposed to the black magic of radiation.
As for metalurgists, while they do study the joining of metals, which includes soldering and braising, why do you need one in this instance, when any idiot can see that the join was not only not fully soldered, but also cold? There is very little evidence of material failure, except for right at the little lip of solder on the cable.
DO you really need to spend several thousand dollars to confirm that a barely attached bit of solder would fail?
One more bit about testing. If you take a little graduate probability from the math department (which includes the black art of statisics) you will learn that the proper way to use destructive testing is the choose at random a certain percentage of items (based on how many items are in the run and how certain yo uwnat to be that the run is good) from each production run, and break em. From that data you then can make deductions about how the rest of the batch will perform. I'm not going to dig it up, but perhaps Ed or Rgold will offer a specific example of what I'm talking about.
Or YOU can go look it up in your stat and prob text, cause there are all sorts of examples in there about this very thing. It's the basis of what they call 3 sigma testing. You can also go for more sigmas, if you want to be 99.999999999999% sure.
But what you shouldn't do is take your one set of cams, load test em, and then think they are safe to use. That's not how desetructive testing works. As the ME guy implied, you won't know if you have weakened a bad braize with your test, to the point that it may fail the NEXT time it is stressed.
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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May 27, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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I don't have the energy to respond to Geir's metalurgical obsession in two different websites, so he can go over to the other stupid site to see my response on the matter.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 27, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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justthemaid...would you post about your ballnutz over here? I bumped it over 'there' b/c I'm interested in hearing about it from a range of people (including Mal) since I'm totally ignorant on the topic, but fear that I shouldn't be. These Alien threads have been very educational for me.
Thanks.
Melissa
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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May 27, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
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Ok Melissa- Your wish is my command.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 27, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
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So, a lot of you must be sitting there with your hand over your ears and eyes shouting, I can't hear you, I'm not listening.
So...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 27, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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That CCH video is about as useful as the guy wrecking his Aliens with his car...
We know a good braze is a wonderful thing.
We all know stainless steel cable is strong enough. Duh.
CCH has done nothing to address the current very real problems at their manufacturing facility.
CCH has done little to deal with the thousands of potential garbage units out there. Offering to pull test units we can send in means dick.
Let's face it. What they need is a total revamp of their manufacturing process including eliminating the error-prone braze and a modern approach to testing batches of units. Then, barring discovery of a certain cheap and certain non-destructive test, a complete and total recall and replacement of every Alien ever sold.
That's not gonna happen. It's cheaper to kill or injure a few people, sell as many as they can, and then go out of business.
Sad....
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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May 28, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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jstan,
I'm of the opinion that if the braze between the cable and head of a given Alien unit is good--the unit itself is also good. (not withstanding the few other known mis-drilled holes, etc....that are also out there, of course...)
That being the case, I'm also of the opinion that an x-ray analysis of those braze joints would almost certainly discover the voids that exist (as in the original photos posted by Russ) where the braze did not fully fill the cavity in the cam head. Since this technology is used to find hidden cracks in pipes, aircraft frames, etc. all the time, can you see any reason why it wouldn't be applicable here?
Curt
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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posted to
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html
(emphasis mine)
"The UIAA standard for testing frictional anchors(cams) is EN12276. All certification labs test cams to these standards. Testing an Alien by threading a cord under the cams and then applying force is not a valid test and it doesnt simulate use of the cam in a placement. In use, the cable eye can pivot in the direction of the force and also allow the cable stem to take the flex over its entire length With a cord under the cams and around the cable eye, the eye is twisted so that all the bending force is located at just one point: the base of the cable eye. This places undue stress at one point and can cause premature breakage, similar to placing the stem over an edge."
dated 31-May. Comments ?
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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I was a big fan of aliens, but are you really going to listen to the clowns who can't seem to build a cam about how to test a cam?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2007 - 03:54pm PT
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So... pulling the head on a cam in a fairly longitudinal manner is not a valid test. I wonder if the bad braze cam I tested would have been deemed safe using some UIAA method. I would guess knott. Sounds like bunk to me.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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CCH is smoking way too much weed. No suprise there.
Russ's 900 pound test would never, ever, ever have broken a good braze. Plus once it broke, we could all clearly see a really sh!tty braze with an improperly inserted cable (not deep enough) and about 1/2 the silver brazing material that should have been there.
Try again CCH.
Desperation is kind of funny.
-Fear
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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He also seems to be attempting to address the Souder's Crack thing as an incorrect cam placement, with those new how-to-and-not-to diagrams.
His critique of Russ's test was a joke. Clearly, the eyelet he's wanking about isn't what failed.
I have to say I'm with most here and am not impressed either.
If this guy was a decision maker type in a larger company, he'd very likely be fired for his response to these issues.
x-rays from my doctor cost me around $50-250 each. I'm thinking as a quality control thing, it's not going to happen, and in general shouldn't be necessary. There exists a really expensive and precise way to test just about everything, but that's generally not what happens.
JLP
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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But that responds from CCH hasn't changed our problem really, apart from telling us that we are no further in teling whether each alien we own is good or not!
I don't wanna give up using them, but not really keen to be playing russian roulette(sp?)
Russ, fear or anybody else who is an expert in testing, cam building etc got any ideas how we can move forward! How can we test our aliens so that we can tell whether they are safe or not???
There were some good ideas out there so far but am worried about weaking them during pull testing!
cheers
dirtbagger
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ramonjuan
climber
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I do Non Destructive Testing at my job and I spoke with a friend of mine who has 30 years of experiance in NDT and has been a level three in almost all the methods for 25 years. He said that the only way to perform NDT and get any results for the type and size of joint on an alien is to x ray it but that it wouldn't buy you that much in that it is very expensive and is highly likely that you could miss indications that could be defects.
This alien thing is a total quality issue. You dont see pre ultralight TCU's failing at the brazed joint.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I've worked with guys doing analysis of welds on very large structures. The equipment I saw (but I'm certainly not an expert) was very complicated. The output sure as hell didn't look like any medical X-ray film you might be familiar with. It took a lot of time and I'm sure cost a lot of $$$.....
Unless there's something else they could do for very small objects (and maybe there is) that would be much faster then I don't see how this kind of analysis would be cost effective for something as cheap as an Alien. I mean, we're not talking about 200' 40 ton struts holding up an oil rig in boiling seas with 100 lives at stake.
Oh wait.... All this worrying sh!t should be CCH's job... I forgot. Back to my C3's...
-Fear
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ramonjuan
climber
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Yeah the source and equiptment usen to do radiography on structures is some intense stuff and probably different from what you would use for alien parts. I have seen real time xray of aircraft parts on a conveyor belt. It was like looking through a window with x ray vision as you conrtoled how fast the part went by. This equiptment was super expensive. From what i can gather xray in this particular instance wouldn't give you the best results.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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I'm fairly confident that x-rays of Alien braze joints would indeed reveal if any small cracks or voids in the joint were present. The relevant questions are:
1) If no voids or cracks are found, would that categorically define a "good braze" or is there more to it?
2) Could this x-ray analysis be done for a reasonable cost?
Curt
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ramonjuan
climber
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You may be right I'm just going off what a friend told me. I trust him though he has been doing RT for 30 years. I think it would be hard to differentiate between the voids of the cable strands and a crack. As well as shadows from the voids in the cable. Its hard enough to see discontinuities in a weld witch is solid metal let alone s twisted cable the size of a pencil shoved into a tube and brazed. You would be able to see if the cable was inserted to the proper length.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Well, in a properly done braze, wouldn't all those voids in the cable strands be completely filled with the silver solder? I'm under the impression that that would be the case.
Curt
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ramonjuan
climber
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I'm not posativly sure if the braze would penetrate the cable all of the way through. I do know for brazed joints there is a minimum clearance (not much but none the less) between the parts being joined to allow for capillary action to take place, wether the clearance between the individual cable strands is enough i don't know for sure but i would tend to think not. The other issue is that the different densitys of the braze the cable and the female part would probably make the xray shot a jumbled mess. Also to see if the braze bonded properly at the whole circumfence of the part you would have to pull some shenanagans (mabye multiple shots)to see everything clearly, keep in mind this is a small part to begin with. It would be interesting to see how it turned out.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I suspect in the case of the dimpled cams where the brazing looked perfect, but simply didn't bond adequately to walls of the receiver, that they would by-and-large look completely fine in an x-ray. A braze where the stem wasn't all the way in or where there were significant voids in the braze, such as in the case of the cam Russ broke, would seem more likely discoverable by this method.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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I just got back my last 3 (previously) untested aliens (dated 09/02). CCH was prompt (as in my previous dealings with them)... It is a personal decision to use them or not (tested or not), but bear in mind that sometimes aliens hold falls in placements where no other gear (seems) to be able to hold its weight, never mind hold a fall. What is the difference between a very reputable cam that blows out of a (marginal) placement because its design will not allow it to "stick", and an alien that (might) break?
One of the cams I just got back from CCH kept me off the deck once, and while that has no statistical significance, it surely has a personal one. I do not do mechanical design, but as an engineer, I can spot a good design, and alien cams are one of those designs that even when executed poorly can be superior to a perfectly executed lesser design. So I made the personal choice to trade some of the safety that reputable companies offer (BD, Metolius) for the safety of a superior design (my trad rack is all Metolius, Camalots and Aliens). Saying all these, I think CCH should reconsider their manufacturing process, or maybe partner (?) with some other company and bring this very good design to the next level. My 2 cents...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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From the site nobody wants to look at or comment on:
Penetrating radiation
CRACKS, density and chemistry variations, elemental distribution, foreign objects, inclusions, microporosity, misalignment, missing parts, segregation, service degradation, shrinkage, thickness, VOIDS
Electromagnetic and electronic
alloy content, anisotropy, CAVITIES, COLD WORK, local strain, hardness, composition, contamination, corrosion, CRACKS, crack depth, crystal structure, electrical and thermal conductivities, flakes, heat treatment, hot tears, inclusions, ion concentrations, laps, lattice strain, layer thickness, moisture content, polarization, seams, segregation, shrinkage, state of cure, tensile strength, thickness, disbonds
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ramonjuan
climber
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I'm pretty sure that there is not a reliable way to do NDT in this instance. With the exception of seeing if the cable was inserted to the correct depth. What did you have in mind?
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:38pm PT
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all i have to say is watch this video.... CCH welded the steel head on tested it to the 1700 lbs. stampted it tested then tested it again to 2800lbs.. and no it is no staged i work for CCH and was standing right there.. reply back and let me know wut u think
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/video/test_ 5-25-2007.MPG
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:43pm PT
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That URL must have been through the same QA process as your cams.
Thumbs up boys!
But really, if you do work for cch, how does CCH plan to address the problem of hundreds if not thousands of unknown garbage pieces out there?
We all know a good braze is good enough. That's got nothing to do with CCH's problems.
-Fear
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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sry for the bad URL try this one: http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/video.html
im not gonna say anything about wut CCH is going to do because im not in a mangment positin nor pretend to be.. But i know if u call and speak with the owner Dave he will explain to u what further actions he is going to take
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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yeah it doesnt seem to be loading on my end either. maybe wait longer.. ill try it at work tomorrow and fix it if it is not loading.. so im guessing no one trusts aliens right now?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
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"broken link"
All I need to know.
Side note: Maybe Del Taco is hiring.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 10, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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so im guessing no one trusts aliens right now?
Let's just say that some of us are having our doubts ... I have spoken to Dave on the phone, and I feel pretty good about talking to him. I guess his organization is what makes me worried.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 11, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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its nice that u r sticking up 4 ur company, but im not going to quit backing up my aliens with camalots cuz i saw ur attempt to post a link to a single cam that supposedly didnt break and also cuz, well just cuz.
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 11, 2007 - 03:05pm PT
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well the video should load now or IT guy fixed it this morning
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 11, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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Thanks man,
Not to bust your balls or anything since you're not "management". At least you're trying some kind of spin control which isn't your job. It's pathetic your "management" hasn't stood up.
The video loads now but what does it prove? It proves a good Alien with a good braze should break at the cable. If anything this video damages CCH's "case" even more.
The many recent, clearly photographed failures were not cable failures but bad braze failures. And these were non-dimpled Aliens.
But at least someone at CCH gives a sh#t. Get your resume together and get the hell out of there!
Oh well....
-Fear
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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CLIMBER159
I hate to rain on the parade.
I have been silent awaiting a design change from CCH.
Now you speak on behalf of CCH to defend the product/process as it currently stands. I have to speak up now.
I pulled 12 aliens of current production.
2 failed
1 Blue 1200 pounds Stamped "Tested" and "L" on the head and "Tensile Tested" on the loop.
Date stamp on trigger 307
2nd Yellow 1100 pounds Stamped "C" on the head and "Tensile Tested" on the loop
Trigger is stamped 307
I did the testing on May 11, 2007.
Problems with the test:
Dyno is a 15k dyno. Idealy you are using 80% of the range.
The pull was done with an electric winch with a dyneema runner wrapped around the head.
These issues do not offer enough variable in my humble opinion to warrant the failures insignificant.
Note: on this day I tested 12 cams and 2 failed.
I have another 14 cams that did not fail on tests done last year.
I informed both retaliers that supplied the cams to me of the problem. They both continue to sell them. Although 1 has communicated in detail that they are desperatly trying to help CCH get QC under control.
I sent the failed cams to Norhtwest Labs for evaluation. Once they received them they informed me they could not do an evaluation because they are in the middle of an evaluation that may result in legal action (Rick Schefsky at N.West Labs).
I wish you would sell the brazing gear and start crimping the cable.
FYI: the failure looks similar to the Sauders Crack failure... It is not that the cable was not inserted all the way. The cable broke at the braze and severed itself slightly inside the braze.
I am a fan of the product, I even tried to buy the company because the design concept is fantastic, but you cannot have cams failing. There is already too many things to go wrong in this sport.
Fix the process, get 100% outside testing and comeback to the market place. Hell, if you do that, I would even help promote your product.
I have pictures. I do not have any desire to go through the photo buck thing to post. If somebody wants to post them, send me an email and I will fire them your way.
Now, I would like to disapear back into my positive world of climbing and the outdoors.
Kind regards and good luck,
Jay
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2007 - 05:22pm PT
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Wow.... interesting and scary results.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 11, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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Send them my way and I'll post them. xs.to is the simplest site for hosting I've found so far, just a couple clicks, and no registering at all. seann_woolery(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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Moof
I have sent the pictures.
I broke it into 4 emails.
Thank you
EDIT: Russ, I sent them to you too.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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Here they are in full glory. I hacked them down to 800x600 or less (some started at 640x480). I also put them in pretty low quality. If you want the full quality look at the adress for the image and look up the same files, but without the "_s" at the end of the name.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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Hey only two out of 12. Why that's no worse than Russian roulette with a six shooter. ha ha. 3/07 manufacture date; this story keeps getting worse. So what does "tensile test" mean. I thought tested to 1700 lbs.
I sent mine in recently for a checkup but even then my faith is fading. Fortunately mine are offsets and basically are only on my aid rack. Still feel ripped though. They're new and cost me big bucks.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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These were clearly being loaded such that a high bending force was being placed right at the joint. It's clear from the yellow alien loading picture. I'm not convinced this is a valid test. Anyone who knows what Mohr's circle is knows the stress goes up geometrically as a bending force is added. Is this bending force valid and would other cams survive it? I don't think so.
New operating hypothesis: At Souder's Crack, only half the lobes were "set", causing the cam to fail in the same way as above. 1100 lbs isn't far off of a 10-20 foot fall on a short pitch.
TO DO: Get cams tested to 1800 lbs, by CCH, in their TENSILE fixture, loaded above the failure of any brazing snafu I've seen, then make sure to "set" cams after I place them, just as I was taught. Or, wait for braze to get designed out of the cam...
Would a mid 90's WC flex friend fail if loaded the same way? I've seen the stem snapped off on more than 1 of those cams.
JLP
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:55am PT
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That's really freakin' odd how those broke similiar to another one of the recent failures. Either the cable was barely inserted into the fitting or there's some other kind of odd metallurgical thing going on... I'd have to guess it was barely inserted though. How is that even possible though unless the guy doing the brazing was a complete idiot.
I'd love to cut those fittings open and see if there's any cable inside..
I wonder what overheating stainless steel cable (say white-hot) and then a fast cold quench would do to it? Might that embrittle cable to a great degree?
In any case it really doesn't matter anymore....
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:18am PT
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I have to agree with JLP. wrapping a cord around the head like that is not going to result in the same stress that a fall on a properly placed cam would...
Maybe if you wrapped two cords of exactly the same length each one side of stem, it would come closer...
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:51am PT
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The Yellow one in the photo showing the test procedure did not break at 1200lbs.
26 other cams tested this way did not break.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:47am PT
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"The Yellow one in the photo showing the test procedure did not break at 1200lbs."
I can only see one yellow alien in your photos and it did break.
How much did you pull the other cams to?
I am also sceptical about the testing method. It is possibly that the load on a couple of the cams became to one side and loaded the cable/stem uneven compared to the other cams. Impossibly to say without seeing it though.
Aliens has lost a lot of crediablity though and the best option would probably that someone took over the production.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:59am PT
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I volunteer all 100+ of my BD/Metolius/DMM/Wild Country/Omega Pacific cams for "WRAPPED IN A SLING" head testing that resulted in the alien failures.
Its the only fair thing to do, right?
According to the folks at CCH, these cams will be failing left and right, as well. THOUGH I'M NOT A PHYSICIST, I THINK THAT THIS IS BULLSH#T and am happy to volunteer my stuff for testing.
Russ? Proof of concept opportunity? Or someone else that I trust to, um, actually send the stuff back to me?
-Kate.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:05am PT
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Raymond: Classic internet. You are telling me, the person who did the test, what happened in a photo.
The yellow cam shown being pulled did not break. It is a different cam than the yellow one shown broken. (I have tested more cams than in the attached photos).
All of the cams were pulled to 1200-1300 lbs. This is scary since there is a 1200lbs. failure. This means I could still have some on my rack that could fail.
Anyway, I have done my "moral duty".
Be safe everybody.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:08am PT
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Kate,
I will pull em and give them back. I have plenty of BD ans will offer them to the test but would be happy to pull the Mets for a control group.
I will send them back, I do not need anybody elses gear on my rack.
Send me an email.
Cheers,
Jay
EDIT: Kate, you show location of Yosemite. If that is the case, I will be in Yosemite this weekend. We can do the test together at the park.
Let me know.
Jay
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:22am PT
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Sorry if I was misstaken. You tested 12 cams and show a picture with 12 cams. Now you say that you didn't test those 12 cams. What sizes did you actually test?
You perform a test with clearly put a bending force at a joint. 2 of 12 fail close to the max load. I dont belive that the 10 cams that passed the test show that the test is a relevant test. The main reason for this is the small load difference and the possibilty for different bending loading for different cams.
The other strange thing is that the cams broke at a different place and for a different reason than in Russ test. Is this the only cams that have broken at that location?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:33am PT
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I wonder what overheating stainless steel cable (say white-hot) and then a fast cold quench would do to it? Might that embrittle cable to a great degree?
302/304 stainless steel (most cable is this type) does not form martensite, the really hard and brittle phase that forms in tool steel, 400-series stainless, etc., when heated and quenched. 302/304 can't be heat-treated that way, and would not become brittle.
Oddly enough, heating and quenching is how you anneal (soften) 304 stainless. It's basically relieves cold-work hardening.
Enough time under a flame, in an oxygen environment, would dramatically reduce the strength of the cable.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:39am PT
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Raymond, this type of nonsense is why people like Dave at CCH do not post on these forums.
READ THE POSTS!
Look at the edit Russ added to the very first post.
READ my post. I have tested 26 cams and I NEVER said I did not test the 12 in the photo. The 12 in the photo were tested.
Now please, go away. I love Aliens too. I want them to be perfect or tolerable. I climbed on some last weekend. I expect you want them to be good too and that is where the attack from you is coming from.
Relax man. I am not saying burn the company.
Your comments are why I did not post this in the past. If somebody was hurt and I held the info secret, I would punish myself for life.
I see a possible duplicate of my failure in the Sauders Crack cam.
Now, I have given the info and the photos. If you feel it is a bad test because of the orientation of the pull. That is fine. I would also reccomend you look at the pull of your placements and see if there is a similarity to the photo. I also say 1300lbs. is a low number of failure, but hey thats me.
One of things I love about climbing is accountability. If you choose to climb on suspect gear and get hurt, that is your problem. If you put 1 piece of gear between you and the deck, that is your call and your problem.
I have pushed limits with experimental gear and that was my call, my problem.
Now, make your own call about all gear you own / use. It is a decision you live and die with.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:51am PT
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"Raymond, this type of nonsense is why people like Dave at CCH do not post on these forums."
I'm guessing hacks pull testing cams with their cars, their anvils, their car jacks, and coming to untrained and blind conclusions may be another reason.
As for your cams, they were all obviously loaded very differently. No repeatability. You have no idea what stress you were applying to the joint. I would not send you my cams, if I had any value for my life.
JLP
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:09am PT
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Sorry that I thought it should be the latest 12 cams you showed in your photo.
You are extemely defensive about your test. There are a lot of crap written on the internet and people shouldn't take other peoples conclusions as given. I much agree with JLP above.
It might be an ok test but it is possibly that the cams are loaded in the wrong way and it is thus difficult to draw any conclusion about the test.
I belive that it is difficult to load a cam in that way when climbing. The only possibility is over an edge but the edge needs to be very close to the head of the cam. It is also nothing strange if a cam over an edge brake below the rated load.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 11:10am PT
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What a load of malarkey. Claiming that the test method is putting unrealistic forces on the head of the cams is hooey. If you plug a cam into a crack while climbing, I would say that 80% of the placements will put an even greater stress angle on the loaded cam. If the only way the heads are going to stay on Aliens is in a lab, under perfect pull scenarios, then what good are they? The numbers are just too low for any reasonable safety margin, regardless of pull angle.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:20am PT
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Russ - I agree the failures are disconcerting and likely duplicate the failure at Sauder's, but I disagree that you have any knowledge of "the numbers" based on these test methods and equipement.
I've seen WC flex friends that have failed in a very similar way. Maybe the way we test and validate cams needs to change to account for not pointing exactly in the right direction of pull, or for only 2 lobes catching.
JLP
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:31am PT
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From what I've witnessed watching people placing cams including aliens they are never really placed without some angle involved.
There will always be some bend if they are loaded during aid or in the event of a fall.
I like the bend test better as it may be a more real world realistic test. Just my hunch.
For now if your first piece off the ground requires an alien size maybe place a different type cam for peace of mind?
I've had many old and suspect units on my rack at various times and was careful at what places and time I used them. Not that this solves any problems but can help.
Also I've noticed over the years that people actually climb until they fall. People are really climbing and relying more than ever on gear now.
Maybe the gear is being stressed more than ever?
But what do I know, these are just some of my observations.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 11:33am PT
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Sure, change the tests for gear to real world tests. Imagine if I made a product like a sling or some webbed widget and tested it over a 4" diameter pipe and got a 3000lb breaking strength. But, this widget is used out at the crags to girth through bolt hangers and is now failing at 800lbs..... that would be a problem.
As for me not knowing the "numbers" I think you are flat wrong. I have seen the angle of pull, and have seen the failure, and am satisfied that it very closely mimics anything I might encounter in climbing.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:36am PT
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Sorry for the defense. This is why I did not want to do this on the web back when I did the test.
FYI: I am nearly done (3 weeks late) with a proper pull machine with an adjustable crack. The problem is what Russ said. The numbers are low, and perfect straight pulls are rare in climbing.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2007 - 11:49am PT
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Russ - don't mean to argue, but the number you see on the gage is only one dimension of the stress applied, and it is not repeatable, nor comparable to any standard test. As bending is added, the internal stresses can more than double. This test to me looks more severe than anything one would see while out climbing as it restricts the head from rotating. To use your example, when was the last time you slung the head of your cam like this and fell on it?
I don't disagree with the gist of your point, though, that it seems this thing should be withstanding higher forces. However, to be fair with this "new" test, shouldn't we be applying the same test to comparable cams?
JLP
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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This test to me looks more severe than anything one would see while out climbing as it restricts the head from rotating.
Obviously we are not seeing the same thing. I see a LESS severe angle. As for the head rotating.... man, we are sure counting on a lot of internal crack rotation to make these things hold falls. This is a low percentage ploy, and with the popularity of Aliens for pinscars, rotation will be minimal to non existent. Cracks ain't always that deep to allow rotation, and if the head does indeed get to rotate during the fall, the ending angle will still be less than the angle I have seen in the tests.
I understand the angle:force argument and agree. I just don't see it in this test set up. If I get time I'll go pull some old WC Friends. Got beers that says the heads don't pop off... any takers?
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Murf
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:21pm PT
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The truly fantastic thing about this whole "angle of load" is that, if true, it negates one of the best properties of the cam. You can't talk about Aliens without bringing up pin scars ( esp. when on ST, Yosemite central ). Explain to me how an Alien in a pin scar doesn't practically require "off angle" load to the fall? How many pin scar falls do you think properly produced Aliens have held?
Russ - I'll finance any other cam pull test up to twelve beers ( and good beer too ).
Murf
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:28pm PT
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Russ added, or changed the photos in his first post. I just now saw them.
That brazed joint looks like it was dirty, and didn't have enough flux. Again, a vent hole in the fitting would have allowed the assembler to notice that solder wasn't flowing out. I once got some oily cable for some furniture I was making, and no matter how hard I tried to clean it, the silver solder just would not flow properly. I wound up throwing the cable away, and buying the correct, unlubricated stuff.
Anybody got any suspect Aliens they want to sell cheap? I'll pull those suckers apart, drill the vent hole, rebraze the cable.
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dirtbagger
Ice climber
Australia
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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Ah drats, this thing is just too confusing for my poor brain to cope with! So in summary, we are not allowed to fall onto our Aliens, if they are bend over a edge? I would have thought nearly 80% of all placements could potentially bend the cam stem over an edge!
I have taken falls on small WC tech friends, TCUs without any problems, apart from the stem having a minor bend in it! Never thought that would cause total failure though!
What are the next steps then? Stop using Aliens? Only use them where there is no bending, no ground fall or ledge potential?
Add screamers to them?
I would really hate having to stop using my beloved Aliens, but I am crap enough at aid climbing that I don't need "Aliens, putting the A4 back into C1" to make my life exciting!!
I just wish we could work out a cheap-ish method to once and for all test our beloved Aliens, whether they are safe or just time bombs! Obviously they can't all be faulty, otherwise we would have seen heaps more failures, no?
cheers dirtbagger
PS Tom I have a bunch of non "Tensile tested" stamped Aliens I am worried about! But not really yet willing to give up on them just yet! Nuthing happened yet to them during heavy bounce testing. Still need to funk-test them to 1.8kN, but kinda worried about causing damage and weakening them in the process!
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ric
Trad climber
Annapolis, MD
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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Wow! sounds like I need to pull test the few aliens I have.
Jay- Thanks for sharing info...
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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Ric,
Happy you found the info helpful.
Cheers,
Jay
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Jun 12, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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Anyone that thinks a Blue Alien or a # 1 or 2 brass nut or stopper will hold a fall should have their head examined. I consider them for aid and body weight only.
I just took a 25' ride onto a #4 Friend about 750' off the deck in Kings Canyon - while still clutching a Yellow Alien ( the rock was rotten and blew - the Alien was fine ) - woo hoo!!
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 12, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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Anyone that thinks a Blue Alien or a # 1 or 2 brass nut or stopper will hold a fall should have their head examined. I consider them for aid and body weight only.
Good thing that's not true (at least WRT the blue alien), or I'd have gotten pretty f*#ked up several years ago. I was probably 6 - 9 feet above my blue alien (harness level) when a foot hold broke and free-fell until it caught me. After the fall, my belayer's head was only a foot or so below my feet. In a good placement, small cams will hold a fall.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 12, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
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I took a 20' fall with about 90' of rope out on a blue alien in a perfect placement. Ripped half the screamer I had clipped to it.
They'll hold...
Well... at least if they're not the recent head-snapping-off variety.
The main problem with any small cams is being able to tell what a good placement is. It's often very hard to see inside that black-alien crack and see what each cam is doing. Another bonus in favor for C3's is the full camstops. Aliens lack stops which is another (albeit minor in comparison!) flaw.
-Fear
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:13am PT
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This weekend I met the climber that was injured on the failed Alien at Sauders crack. He is in Yosemite with a green cast on his arm.
His failure mimmicked the failue that I had on the 2 that are posted in the earlier pictures of this thread. Broken cabel at the head.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:57pm PT
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I happened to notice this link after doing some random googling :
If you have been injured due to the failure of a mountain climbing camming anchor (alien cam), a lawyer at Pritzker | Ruohonen is available for a free consultation.
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