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hirigger
Big Wall climber
ventura
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 10, 2007 - 12:17am PT
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Yesterday Patagonia unceremoniously sh#t canned the rock climbing ambassadors...you know, the ones being touted as the soul of the sport in the new Yosemite spring catalog we all received last week. looks like they got their use out of them...
Ron kauk, Lynn Hill, Dean Potter, Steph Davis, Katie Brown and others-GONE.
Did you hear about Y.C.'s new book? it's called "Letting My People Go..."
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:22am PT
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Wow! Is this really true and not some sick troll?
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Loom
climber
The Whiteboard Jungle
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:23am PT
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Could be both?
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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I'm starting to think that Patagonia may have lost its way. The two patagonia retail stores I've seen are in the trendiest (and most expensive parts) of their respective cities: Georgetown in DC and LoDo in Denver. Nobody who is 'committed to the core' lives in or frequents any of these places. Of course, this doesn't mean that I'll be pitching my stinky old capilene...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:28am PT
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Always jobs at the Walmart.
JDF
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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Probably a decision made months ago but not implemented until some of the heat dissipated.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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A quick check of the Patagonia site and I don't see any link to the ambassadors.
Did Yvon show their ass the door?
Like any situation like this, let's find out some facts and get different points of view.
Then lynch somebody....
or if we get worked up...everybody!
Best luck and freedom to everybody facing extra-sudden-dirtbag status. They're all bright enough to do fine.
Peace
Karl
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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Still listed on the patagucci site. Click on "sports we do", then "rock climbing" then "abassadors". They're all still listed.
-Brian in SLC
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hirigger
Big Wall climber
ventura
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2007 - 01:23am PT
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It's for real...most of them have about a months notice, then they're outa here.
the surfers are staying on though...for now.
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Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:55am PT
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I'm ready to fill the void. My resume speaks for itself. [Patagonia people: you did get those photos of me sending the green-tape 5.11b at Mission Cliffs, right? I haven't yet received money from you guys, so I assume you haven't gotten to it yet. No prob.]
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:06am PT
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"and really down to earth people"
have you met any of these folks? particularly at a slc trade show? kauk, yeah. along with bachar, those guys should get fukkin' macarthur grants. but as for some of the others...SWOLE heads, and way too big fer their britches.
i'm jus' sayin', is all.
personally? i think the arches BS has finally come home to roost. as it should have months ago.
unless this is a realy good troll....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:08am PT
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Patagonia unceremoniously
um, is there supposed to be a ceremony? what, 21 gun salute or somethingz??
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Mar 10, 2007 - 03:08am PT
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I hope this is not true since it would be a sad gesture.
This specific program has merits for it promotes climbers to be environmentalist. Hopefully this continues in one form or another because climbers have been the reason many natural regions have been saved. Now that climbing is becoming more popular with the developments of gyms around the country, it could be used as a tool to improve environmental awareness.
I am crossing my fingers over this...
Anastasia
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:10am PT
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delete repeat
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:12am PT
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Delete repeat
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:14am PT
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I thought the first Chouinard/Frost catalog with
its artwork was the most exceptional of all.
Why so? What that motif said was that
climbing celebrates a relationship between
the individual and something else. That
something else defined by each person.
Some relate to grand natural structures such
as those on which we climb. Others relate
more to the friends who help protect us from
danger. But still, climbing is a sometimes
incompletely defined relationship. When
we get away from that, I believe, climbing
does not raise us up as it must.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:25am PT
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interesting move (if true)...by a rappeller
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:30am PT
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Well, JStan - that does bear repeating, but....(hahah).
I don't believe it, frankly. The post has all the hallmarks of a Big Fish Troll*(BFT). OP has no prior record. Posted at the start of a weekend; allowing two full days to simmer while anyone who might be able to answer the question is out of the office..... Site specific topic with nearly unlimited gossip/innuendo/ speculation potential.
A well done troll, for sure(thus, the BFT designation).
Lacking in account only one small detail, and that is - that there are those on the ST board who know some of those climbers, and can contact them for the skinny.
I suggest they don't do it! Let the suspense build and see what a mountain this post can make from the molehill of a two-lined post. Then, on Monday morning, someone can call the Patagonia office and pester up the phoneline chain until they get a definitve answer. That won't be me.
Anyway - since the Arches thing's been mentioned, here's my input....
* Big Fish Troll does not imply the source comes from the username of the same(unless, of course....then it's very clever)
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:39am PT
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methinks a troll is around....
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:26am PT
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THEY TOOK 'ER JOBS!!!
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:31am PT
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I was trying to make my earlier post at the time
the ST site was going to "slow motion". No clue
as to why it repeated.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:48am PT
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How timely if true...
I was just going to drop them an email informing them that I just bought a competitor's product due to their continued support of Potter.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:50am PT
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I wouldn't mind if the door hit them on their way out.
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angie
Boulder climber
slc
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:56am PT
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I think this is so sad. I look up to those climbers. Lynn Hill inspired me to start climbing. Katie Brown has had such a hard time with being a teenage star and then quitting climbing and then now she is still climbing because she loves it. I was disgusted with people tearing down Dean Potter because he climbed a rock--that's what he does, and there's no one like him. I met him and he was really genuine and nice. I respected Patagonia more for standing behind him. It must be awful to be so committed to climbing, and then to have people criticizing you for anything they can think of. Maybe some people are jealous that those climbers have been supported. Which is pretty sad, to me. They have put their whole lives into it, and it seems like they work really hard for not very secure lifestyles.
I got a copy of Steph Davis's new book at the trade show, at the Patagonia booth. The whole book is about how she has dedicated her entire life to climbing and also working to become a better person. She talks about how Patagonia has supported her emotionally, and how they are a second family to her. It made me think even more of Patagonia.
If this is all true, I think it's pretty heartless on Patagonia's part to take all those people's dedication and then throw them away, not to mention a pretty bad message to send after their new catalog they have out (which really inspired me too). It seems like a big lie to have that catalog if they dropped all the people they have in there. A lot of people make clothes, but I thought Patagonia was also about having high ideals.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:01am PT
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Not a troll. Lynn was at the BRC on Thusday and confirmed that all the athletes lost their sponsorship.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:10am PT
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Ang, blow me. I've got polypro with more climbing experience than you.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:31am PT
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Angie,
I used to think like you do about DP, met him in Yosemite and he was super helpfull and supportive of me and my "project". Actions speak louder than words though, and with him leaving his crap at the base of Half Dome for 2+ years(saw it in person), fixing ropes and leaving crap strewed about on Mt. Watson, and leaving ropes fixed on the Salathe Headwall for 2 seasons. All to support his attempts to climb El Cap, HD, and Watson in a day as well as the Salathe in a day. Amazing goals to be sure and super inspiring. Unfortunately not the most environmentally friendly gestures.
It is not the goals that have most likely caused this event, it is the methods. I have no doubt that Dean has a strong back country ethic, unfortunately for him it was not as strong as his drive to succeed. Most likely YC decided to can the whole project vs just one or 2 athletes because he sees the trends and is not supportive of it.
Just my 0.02 cents.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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I'm happy when fine climbers get sponsorships. I like my fellow climbers and like when they get opportunities, swag, and travel.
It will be informative regarding Patagonia to see "how" they fired these guys. Was there proper communication and reasoning or was it rude?
But I don't think Patagonia "owes" the climbing communiity sponsorships. I look up to Dean but the Arch affair didn't help Patagonia and the guy was much more likely to be seen wearing old cutoffs and a T shirt rather than free Prepagucci swag.
Perhaps they've reasoned that the money (must be between $100,000 and $500,000 a year) that the sponsorship program cost them could be better invested in actual environmental programs or carbon credits or ???
Those climbers are welcome in my world anytime, and it's hard not to take the sides of those who you have something in common with. But let's get more facts and reserve some judgement until we know the whats and whys?
If sponsoring atheletes advances a company's cause, then Patagonia will go downhill because of this and competitors will pick up the atheletes and gain ground. In time, Patagonia may realize their mistake and revamp their program.
But if sponsorship didn't serve Patagonia, and perhaps the athelete's were exploiting rather than contributing to the company's goals, then that's another story.
I don't know myself. It was nice to see the team in Yosemite once in awhile, particularly Brittany, just because.
Peace
Karl
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angie
Boulder climber
slc
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:48am PT
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Dear Kevster and El Cap Fool,
Why don't you just go climbing, and send good energy to others? I don't understand all the negativity on this website--maybe that's why Patagonia decided to stop sponsoring climbers. They were probably tired of seeing the negativity that all you "real climbers" use their names to spread. It must be nice being perfect, but you might want to ask yourself why you have so much hate inside.
Peace, Angie.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:49am PT
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Have to also mention that I am a bit of a hipocrite, for I have left gear at crags for the season before. Never sitting around or on the cliffs, but hidden in drybags under rocks. I have also cached gear on El Cap to aid in my freeclimbing attempts. Some of you may think these are minor infractions, but what would happen if everyone started doing it? Can you really consider an ascent valid if you have to prep for it? Did you really freeclimb El Cap if you spent 2 weeks caching your gear so you did not have to do the real work of hauling?
These questions have altered the way I think about some goals of my own. I have started taking the harder path, vs. the easy way out. Maybe these changes will effect my probability of sucess, but at least at the end of the day I feel I have not compromised my values in order to ensure sucess.
Angie, sorry you see our responses as negative or hate based. Like I said I like DP and look up to most of the ambassators. BUT that doesn't mean it is OK to trash things. Maybe you should do some reaearch on this site about the HD and Watkins incidents before you jump to judge. You will notice I did not jump on the wagon condemning DP in either of those posts although I knew from talking to him his involvement in both. Maybe you are just to new to climbing and still "starry-eyed" about the current "Hero's". Maybe you just have not found a true hero to look up to yet?
(Edit: Re reading I realize I was being an a$$ to tell you to find a real hero, who am I to say who your heros are. I will admit that until a year ago Dean Potter was one of my biggest heros. Freeclimbing El Cap and Half Dome in a day....soloing Fitzroy..come on the guy is a LEGEND. But even legends screw up,
were all human.)
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angie
Boulder climber
slc
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:55am PT
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Like I said Kevster, glad you're perfect. That makes it okay to judge others, at least from what I've read in the Bible.
peace, Angie
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John Moosie
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:21pm PT
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Hi Angie, (edited to try and take the snide tone out)
Maybe its you who needs to wake up. You didn't address any of the concerns like the loss of access and the loss of good will caused by Dean Potters stunts. The park rangers weren't too fond of him leaving his stuff on routes for years. This gives other climbers a bad rap and just causes problems.
I seriously admire their abilities and accomplishments, but I don't have to admire their attitudes nor their behaviors when they come across as privileged. That smacks of elitism. No thanks.....
If they were all fired together because of a couple of them having poor attitudes, then that is wrong. Keep those who show respect and dump the rest.
If Patagonia wants a great Ambassador, then hire Chicken Skinner for his great effort to clean up Yosemite. He gives climbers a great reputation and serves the public. Climbing isn't just about who can climb hardest.
As for your attitude towards Kevin. Don't you think you are doing the same thing you accuse him of doing with your snide tone ? You misquote the bible when you tell people it only says to not judge. It also goes on to say that if you are going to judge, then judge according to righteous standards because this is the same standard that you will be judged by. Kevin has already admitted to having second thoughts about his attitude and he admits to needing to take the beam out of his own eye first. How about you? Why not give Kevin the same break that you are asking him to give to the Ambasadors ? Maybe you should reread this thread and take a look at peoples concerns. Are some of them overboard ? Maybe... But also maybe it is that some of their concerns are real. Some of Deans stunts have resulted in greater restrictions for climbers. How do you answer that ?
And by the way, I think that Patagonia's Ambasador program is a good thing and I hope that they treated the climbers with respect. The same respect that you seem to demand of others. I hope this is all just a troll.......
Moosie
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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The only reason Dean didn't get canned last summer was he and Steph had brown-nosed Melinda for years. Nobody at Patagonia had the balls to stand up to YC's wife.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
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Lynn and Kauk should be signed for life. period.
I met Steph Davis once...all I can say is I now understand how she got the tongue in cheak nickname she does....If those were thier "ambassador" skills....they sucked...big time.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
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What? Someone got laid off? THat never happens!! Those people might, oh, I don't know, have to find new jobs or something!
Like the rest of us!
Seriously though, that sucks for them. But, it's part of life if you're a non equity employee of a company. They're all very talented climbers, I'm sure they won't have much trouble finding new industry jobs or sponsorships.
I seem to remember a flap a couple years ago when TNF dropped Lynn Hill. She still seems to be climbing, and TNF is still making overpriced fleeces, so life goes on.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 10, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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bvb wrote:
" i think the arches BS has finally come home to roost."
that hit the nail right on the head.
perhaps the real drama will quietly play out between DP and some of these other pattagucci ambassadors, whose cushy meal tickets have all been revoked.
so, you don't think this happened largely because of the wreckless self promotion and irresponsibe behaviour of one person, and the way pattagucci felt it reflected upon them and their image?
you could be right, who knows?
i would be curious how many of the other former ambassadors agree.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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Matt,
You think they'd really all get the axe because of one person's actions? While that may be true, I don't understand the rationale behind it...
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Timmy O'neil
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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Hi all. I'll be able to share info as the dust settles. For now, just send good thoughts our way.
See you on the rock.
-Timmy
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
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As juan said,
Walmart is hiring.
Who knows, some of them may look pretty good in those blue vests. And sure as hell, they might, just might be as good as some of the current walmart ambassadors (greeters) i have run into....
Seriously,
most folks have to work for a living. being an ambassador is work too, and envaible for some.
personally, my trash collector and sewage treatment plant worker does far more for humanity than these guys do....but i wish them luck in their new endeavors all the same...
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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wow....so it is true. My Big Fish Troller ambassadorship position is open then, I guess.
Well....I don't know much about anything, but I do wish good luck, prosperity and adventure to each of those climbers.
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myballs yourchin
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:42pm PT
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ambASSator's re Dick ulous tic marks, fixeds ropes , siege tacktic , nice example of free climbing
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10b4me
Trad climber
California
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Mar 10, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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interesting, just got the patagonia spring catalog. the one that features Glen Denny pics. it also has a piece about Kauk, and Fern Spring.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:09pm PT
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CI- of course i have no idea, but i think i wasn't the only one in the peanut gallery that was surprised that a company that's so obviously image concious (their whole marketing program is built around their image as being the example of an environmental leader, is it not?) didn't take any dramatic action at the time.
i just know a lot of climbers were furious that anyone who gets to climb every day of the week would do anything to threaten everyone else's access, to anything. there is no way that sentiment doesn't transfer to the sponsor, and there are a thousand climbers out there that could represent pattagucci. what's more, not just any dirtbag can really afford a closet full of that organic schwag, so they have to consider the opinions of the well to do birdwatchers and whatnot, and that was some significant front page news exposure.
i really wonder if it would have been as big a deal in the media if the damn thing weren't called "delicate arch"...
edit-
does TNF still have "the extreme team"?
maybe these marketing concepts just come and go?
pretty sure they will all land on their [pads].
double edit-
might be a good month to watch ebay for that elusive pair of affordable "barely used" oranic cotton jeans
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quartziteflight
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:10pm PT
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Wow, what a big nasty hate-athon.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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on the contrary.
some climbers losing their jobs has no real impact on humanity.
but if the trash collector stops pickin up your trash, or the sewage treatment plant, power plants and sewage treatment plants shut down cuz the employees strike...we would all be in a world of hurt.
i find it rather hilarious that so many feel bad for them. i mean, it aint the end of the world. how many regular folk go thru this? i mean f*#k. these guys are all talented healthy driven individuals. they can do lots of things for work. and i wish them luck i just dont see this as a major crisis.
now on the other hand, if you were up on elcap ad needed a rescue and the SAR guys freakin quit or got fired, well, thats a little higher on the OH SH#T scale now isnt it?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:31pm PT
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i dn't think he ever needs to cross the road, he just solos some sick roof crack, way-way-way above the road.
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andanother
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:34pm PT
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could someone remind what exactly Patagonia does...
They make clothing or something, right? They are like a "lifestyle" clothing company, if I recall correctly.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 10, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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hey, if they save 500k a year on this "live like a trust-afarian" sponsorship stuff, will they be able to sell their jeans for under a C note?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 10, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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I have no particular reaction to some employees of some company being laid off, it happens all the time. In the case of Patagonia, the employees in question were billed as "ambassadors," rather than, say, as technical consultants, so it would seem that being world-class climbers was not their primary mission. And whether they were laid off for strictly financial reasons or because they were not up to their ambassadorial duties is, in the absence of a manifesto from Patagonia, utter speculation.
Personally, I think that the concept of the sponsored climber is a bad thing for climbing and may not be such a good thing for the climbers either. It is one thing if a company employs experienced climbers to help with the development and improvement of gear, but to pay climbers to carry the company flag while trying to make headlines in the climbing press is exploitative of the individuals and encourages them to undertake ever more "newsworthy" enterprises to justify and insure the continuance of their paychecks. Perhaps all of us would be better off without this.
As for the observation that Patagonia is becoming more Pata-Gucci-like all the time, I think it is true but have a different take on that observation, a viewpoint that is best illustrated by a conversation I had many years ago with a renowned publisher of art books, Harry Abrams. Mr. Abrams published stunning, extremely high-quality books. They weren't cheap, but the market for art books being what is was, his entire operation was a money-loser, a situation he refused to address by compromising on quality. He also had a regular publishing business, and his comment to me that it was his undistinguished ordinary business that financed his dedication to producing the art books that were his passion.
I for one am prepared to cut YC the same slack. If selling high-priced organic cotton shirts to the Al Gore's of the world finances a better rain jacket, as well as giving him a platform for his environmental ideals, then I'd say let him be. No one seems to take more flak from dirtbags than a former dirtbag who has made good.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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Any time money changes hands both explicit
and implied agreements exist. Fact of life.
Another fact is both sides enter into such voluntarily
and either may terminate it voluntarily. We all,
on the other hand, are bystanders.
Now John Moosie has graciously suggested
our Ken Yager could use some help from
Chouinard Equipment. The many people who
have participated at Facelift have seen the degree
to which Ken and his wife both work to exhaustion
in the effort. That said, I personally would be
reluctant to urge such an agreement or arrangement
upon the two parties. I am a bystander. From my
own experience thirty years ago I can suggest how we
may, directly and not as bystanders, support Ken’s
work. Back then we did not have the internet so I
was making available for free a local newsletter.
Despite the fact it was generally available for free,
many people paid something for it. To boot, the
climbing shops carried it at no profit. Then when I
finished my effort, no one asked for a refund.
That expression of support was critical. No, it was
essential. The best support for Ken will come from
many people contributing what we can, and bending
our backs when it comes time for heavy lifting. If we
do that all the other things will come unbidden as
they are needed. Trust me.
Talking personalities or even naming people is
generally less than productive, but I will risk it here.
Thirty years ago there was one person whose
support arrived early, he was always there, and
he stayed to the end. Ron Matous. We are lucky
when times are hard. For that is when we meet
our friends.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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" I feel so lost. Thank god suicide is still an option.'
Must.....Resist....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 10, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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Welcome to the real world...people get fired.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Mar 10, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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It always sucks to lose a job. For that, I feel for these folks. Fortunately they appear to be a bunch of scrappers who will get up, dust off, and find a way. Having been in the same position in the past (well sorta, my job wasn't glamorous and no one gave me cool clothes, but still), I feel for you all and wish you the best.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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Dean Potter should be sitting in a Prison Cell.
JDF
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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hmm, strange that Timmy spelled his last name with only one 'l' in his post above...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:23pm PT
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A.C. I thought we were pals?
JDF
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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deuce - There is a "patagonia.com" email listed on his username. I think we have to get an email sent to us to post, don't we, when we sign up?
....though I understand he is a pranky sort, and if someone called him to verify the story...he might think it would be funny to play along a litt.e After all, his post doesn't actually confirm or deny the story, and the "dust settling" could mean....the ST dust bunnies of this thread!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 10, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
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weschrist wrote: but bob, these are our heros...
My wife is my hero.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Mar 10, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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I have to concur with rgold's comments, especially about payrolling climbers to be princes and princesses.
Mountain Hardware is the new Patagonia. They've been doing a better job serving alpinists, and are what Patagonia used to be.
Patagonia is the new Eddie Bauer. They have been doing an excellent job serving yuppies. Ironically for both producer and consumer, this is the image Patagonia fancied itself as countering.
 JLP
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 10, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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hey brad,
dude,
i feel bad for anyone losing their job. that sucks. truly. but we all choose our paths to some extent.
fact still remains,
my garbage man does more for humanity on a far larger scale than any climbing ambassador.
and nobody is gonna shed tears when he loses his job except you when your trash doesnt get picked up.
and i will tell you, dean and whoever else that...
so kiss my ass...
in case you dont know juan is a troll...he gets his rocks of by trolling...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 10, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
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sounds like brad brokeboner lynch
got his feelers hurt by juan.
nice job juan.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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wait until they see how much their COBRA payments are gonna be... (if they were give health ins in the first place)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:04pm PT
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"in case you dont know juan is a troll...he gets his rocks of by trolling..."
Funny how a somewhat dysfunctional family comes to love and tolerate each other.
Hey bro, that hostess is kinda cute but she wears WAY too much make-up, what's her story...
Dude...that's cause she's a HE..
Not that this has anything to do with firing the diplomats. Who else knows what really happened?
Too bad this isn't golf and Lynne could just retire on her mega-millions
Peace
Karl
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Timmy O'neil
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:43pm PT
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That "brad lynch" poster is an imposter, and i am not on the Grand Canyon right now.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:47pm PT
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Koan response "....and i am not on the Grand Canyon right now."
Yes so true, the driver of the car is in the body ......
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:48pm PT
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Hey Timmy O'Neil with one l-
If you're the real Timmy, then tell me who was your belayer in the film "Guardian Angel"?
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Timmy O'neil
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
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deucey, you know the answer: god.
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Timmy O'neill
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:00pm PT
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hey, its me. if you don't believe me, check my email adress.
some dick took my name, so this forum added \\\ to it.
email me for details of this saga.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:00pm PT
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This is a slippery business. Obviously, the top performers in most any legitimate sport - from bass fishing to lawn bowling to basketball - usually manuage to derive their livlinood from the sport. It might be a little different in largely non-spectator sports like climbing, where direct personal experience is the main reward. But it's not the only reward, and over the years a lot or the richness I've gotten out of climbing came from reading the exploits of others, getting some sense of the historical record, seeing what's happening here and there and far away, chiming in with my own opinions (far less these days) and reading the opinions and smack of the Top Dogs and all their detractors.
Having had friends who were ambassadors or team members for both Patagonia and North Face I can say for certain that their salaries were not close to even a mid-manager in the company. That is, you can be the best climber in the universe, and take the big risks every time, but you'll get a CPA's wages (if that much). You'll travel the country in your own rust bucket giving slide shows on behalf of the boss company (who will provide no booking or press agent at all). Your name and likeness will be exploited to the last degree but the salary remains very low on the sports pay scale even though Patagonia and North Face CEO's get million dollar bonus' for their part of the deal.
IMO, there's so few fully sponsored climbers that to nix the whole thing seems like thankless old-school thinking. People from my generation (70s) didn't get or expect sponsorship because the sport was too small. Now there are more than a few companies within the climbing world that are worth in excess of 50 million, some five times that, and more. If you were to look at other action sports where the pie is of roughly the same dimensions as climbing, you'd almost certainly see sponsored athletes makeing far more.
I think sponsoring all but the very, very best folks is not a great plan - but when the best are held back for lack of funds, when their big dreams are never realized, we're all the losers for that. But none of this is easy in a non-competative sport. While some companies will probably say the sponsorship thing was not working out with their "message" or moral position, who really knows what's true.
Question is, wonder what Patagonia-sporsored surfers like Gerry Lopez and the Malloy brothers are making? Answer that question and you'll know a whole lot more about all of this.
JL
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
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Great POST Largo.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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So there may be two questions or more
1. Should climbing companies sponsor climbers and how should that work? Hands off? Hands on?
2. What happens if the sponsored climber(s) run publically afoul of the government and public opinion numerous times during a single year. Can one? Can all? Could be a choice between reigning them in or letting them be free but not supporting it.
I don't think the answers to any of it are clear. We'll have to wait for the real reason, which might even be some other thing like liability, (the reason YC got away from Black Diamond in the first place I hear)
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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john.
Your name and likeness will be exploited to the last degree but the salary remains very low on the sports pay scale even though Patagonia and North Face CEO's get million dollar bonus' for their part of the deal.
this is different than any other business because?....
sorry.
i never was a sponsored climber and i admire them for their talents.
but like all sports, they offer very little to the basic needs of humankind...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:30pm PT
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hawkeye wrote: but like all sports, they offer very little to the basic needs of humankind...
Very few Mother Teresa's in the climbing world.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
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No way. The real Timmy has never failed to make me laugh out loud with a spontaneous quip any time he speaks OR writes. Obviously these cyber Timmy's are fakes.
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brochbonar
Social climber
boulder
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:41pm PT
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Hawkeye, you have a point...I would be super bummed if the garbage men went on strike. this happened once when I was a teenager in new jersey, and it sucked. the whole town smelled like death-could't get away from it.
But you could just do what Timmy did. He was too cheap to pay city utilities in boulder for years, so he just took his garbage to whatever dumpster was availible and lobbed it in!.
And by the way...the real Timmy wanted to be a garbage man when he grew up. Says he still may do it.
And yes, he is on a boating trip down the G.C....and I offer you this proof;
http://timmyoneill.com/schedule.html
And to you, Mr. imposter, name your six siblings- if your the real dea...but WAIT! A Patagonia damage control agent my know this as well, so name them in the order you allways do, and tell me wich one was the last to doss on our couch!
So if you e-mail the patagonia address and get a response...IT"S A MOLE!!!!
And let's just all be nice now...
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Timmy O'neill
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:55pm PT
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brochbonar, if you really knew me, you would know our put in was delayed until the 12th. So i am sitting here in phoenix in a best western waiting for the others (who arrive tomorrow). Monday we drive to lee's ferry, and we are off on our trip.
call me on my cell. oops, you don't have my number, imposter.
ps. to prove you know me, post he Brand AND model of the paddle i use. (careful, its not werner or braun).
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brochbonar
Social climber
boulder
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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Timmy's cell # is on his web site, as is his e-mail-he gladly shares both with his adoring public. I won't post it here, but anyone can look them up and give him a call.
It will say "hey, you've reached Timmy O'Neill, go ahead and leave me a message, thanks."
you will get this message untill he returns on the 25th.
and that other guy has a point...if your Timmy, make us all roll out of our chairs with laughter...you have exactly two minutes...the real Timmy could do it in less...
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0uch!
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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You guys are so immature. Faking email address in order to pose as someone else on the internet?!?!?
Grow up!
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
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OK I came in a little late but "trail running" has an ambassador? Actually two.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Sorry for the cynicism here, but who the jell came up with the term "ambassador" for paid climbers? Whose needs are they serving in this self-defined (or assigned) roll?
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0uch!
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:23pm PT
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Thanks Blinny. This is an outrage! I can't beleive someone would do something like this. THese imposters are posing as other people in order to tarnish their reputations!
That is far worse than any of the atrocities that Dean has committed.
And to top it off, you have now ruined a great thread.
Losers.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:43pm PT
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Why such a plethora of disdain for those with sponsorship?
As if the majority of us wouldn't be thrilled to be in a position of being paid to climb.
You know....I looked at the Timmy O'Neil schedule, and clicked the "previous" schedule page, to get an idea. From what I can see...it sort of sucks a lot of time - having to make appearances all over the place. Most of the dates were not "time for climbing" dates.
Some people like that sort of thing, traveling, traveling, traveleing. But not me. I would be a bitter broad, having to do the slideshow sometimes nigtht after night, city after city.
I like a more quiet life.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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Will the real Timmy please stand up?
(These two are silly.)
Something tells me that if Patagonia was going to issue a statement, it would be through official channels.
Neither characters seam to be real. Though they do have entertainment value and are doing a great job with derailing this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2007 - 11:58pm PT
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I believe the next ambassadors to Patagonia will be Tucker Tech, Todd Gorden, Locker, and Russ Walling.
Maybe JuanDeFuca as an alternate for the new astronomy moon eclipse clothing attire.
It will only just get much better ............
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:04am PT
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I thought when you ate peyote the "puke and chuck" part came first and then you reached nirvana.
Maybe I should read this epic thread backwards instead.
Think I'll go back to eating my Ahi Tataki. Ciao.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:07am PT
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"but when the best are held back for lack of funds, when their big dreams are never realized, we're all the losers for that"
yo largo, you are (and have been) right about a lot, but when big dreams are plastered on the front page in a negative light, or if the involve fixed gear being summarily abandoned on a backcountry route for months/seasons/years, those dreams are not helping us all win, and their absence is not costing us jack diddly squat, IMHO.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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"I believe the next ambassadors to Patagonia will be Tucker Tech, Todd Gorden, Locker, and Russ Walling. "
OE-800 has Ambassadors? or is it Green Label Ambassadors?
There would be tough competition from Klaus and Billy Russell. There's only so much room on top.
;-)
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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On a serious note, it's quite shocking that they canned the program. I wonder why they did this.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
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Mar 11, 2007 - 04:07am PT
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In response to JLP.
Mountain Hardware is now owned by Columbia. Has anyone noticed a change in the MH's quality, products, or direction?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Mar 11, 2007 - 10:27am PT
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All these people were pulling down hard before they were sponsored,it's not necessary,and I think it's very bad for the sport.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 11, 2007 - 10:57am PT
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So these folks lost their "jobs" - well shiit howdy. Welcome to the real world. I bet most of us have been there at one time or another. So they might have to pound nails or slop hash so they can earn enough money to go climbing. Oh the horrors.
Personally, I think all of the sponsored "athletes" stuff is lame. It does matter whether you are Tiger Woods smacking a little white ball, Jeff Gordon spewing oil while blowing down the track, or Dean Potter doing the first nude, chalkless, ascent of the Sistine Chapel while singing god save the queen, it all about advertisement. And now there is even a sense intitlement with some. We are all whores and pimps we just sell ourselves and our wares in different ways. Some people are better at it than others.
Largo I have to disagree about this stuff of dreams. If you want it bad enough you will figure out how to it - which might even mean getting a real job. Or in some cases quiting your job. Thats life folks - get over it - its hard.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
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Like others have stated folks get canned every day and we move on. No one died.
As for sponsorship, i worked in the bike industry for many years. Riders were pulling down top buck in the 90's. I often felt these big names didn't do a hell of a lot for the sport. The grassroot sponsorship programs always worked better. Give a weekend warrior a bike and some schwag and they'd be the best ambassador and really represent the sport. They weren't out to make a living, but enjoyed getting out there, riding their bikes and having a good time. The big names, on the other hand, had big heads and egos and really didn't get into giving good representation to the company.
give product to the masses.
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Neil
Gym climber
Here and there
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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I have always really looked up to the people that Patagonia sponsors. I'll never climb 5.14 or send multiple Grade VI climbs in a day, but the achievements of these folks inspire me to dream big and push my limits. Somehow I'm saddened if they've been let go.
I don't know the ins and outs of the situation, but I'm further saddened by some of the callous responces of folks on this site. I've been fired before, "unceremoniously" and unexpectedly. We all know that it is part of "business", but being fired, for whatever reason, seriously upsets the life of the person who got the axe.
If it go down like it was suggested by hirigger, then mostly I feel bad for the folks who have to look for subsistence elsewhere. Good luck to you all. Thanks for the inspiration; you're climbing accomplishments, past and future, will continue to give me psyche!
Cheers,
Nate
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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I think the issue is probably more one of celebrity than sponsorship. I have spent some decent time with a fair number of the rock ambassadors and they were really great people. As a "nobody" in the rock world and an average climber at best they still roped up with me, shared beers with me and waxed philosophical with me, and I genuinely enjoyed their company. I've met 'heroes' of mine in the past who failed to impress me as people, and I don't enjoy spending time with them. I enjoyed spending time with most of the rock ambassadors, and I don't know where all this negativity directed at them is coming from.
Largo raises a poignant question about sponsorship in general, but I'm not so sure its the sponsorship that gives people egos, nor do I think its necessarily self-importance that makes people seem egotistical. The rock "heroes" are people too. They have insecurities and bad days and people constantly coming up to them expecting them to live up to an image of greatness. I'd be kinda defensive too if that was my reality rolling up to the crag. It also means that people are ready to judge you, and judge we do.
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Indianclimber
climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
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I don't think the story here is what will the fired climbers do for a living now,it is why would a company make such a drastic
change in the way it does business ,bad publicity,financial woes
shift of product lines upcoming sale or merger etc
I guess time will tell
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Mar 11, 2007 - 12:58pm PT
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I thought they hired some dickhead who gave everybody the axe.
You know, there once once was a country...
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Mar 11, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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Mountain Hardware is now under Columbia? Bummer. I would guess perhaps you'll see more Mountain Hardware China Lite in the ski shops or Macy's. Who knows. Today, I think the stuff is a pretty good.
I have to disagree with Largo's comments about the size of climbing companies and sponsered athletes. Not sure where you got your numbers, but they don't sound right. How many MM is Black Diamond? 250M? I don't think so, but could be wrong. I would guess maybe 50-150M and that they are pretty much the biggest, no?. Now how big are Adidas and Nike? Not much money in climbing, even for Patagucci. Some accountant had to have been freaking, looking at the ROI on a 100-500k investment in dirtbags who's only appearance on CBS was for breaking the law.
JLP
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 11, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
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Timmy is a genius and destiny will take care of him!
He can be America's answer to Borat!
Sorry Bro, I'm a Californian and don't have any to recycle
peace
karl
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Transplant
climber
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Mar 11, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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" In response to JLP.
Mountain Hardware is now owned by Columbia. Has anyone noticed a change in the MH's quality, products, or direction? "
Actually - Mountain Hardware is till pure - MONTRAIL is now owned by Columbia.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Mar 11, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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nope, mountain hardwear is owned by columbia.........check their home page info
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Transplant
climber
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Mar 11, 2007 - 06:38pm PT
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ooops, my mistake - I just checked - Guess my first post should have said Columbia owns Montrail, as well as MH.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
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Mar 11, 2007 - 06:44pm PT
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patagonia has been there yet loosing gear makes me sad!
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Chico
Trad climber
Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mar 11, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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hirigger,
I call BS. This has to go down as one of the top 5 best trolls of ST history. Not as good as retro-bolting the Bachar-Yearian route, but good. I call BS for a couple of reasons. 1) Patagonia still needs their ambassadors to test their clothing, why would they get rid of them? 2) Go to any Patagonia store and ask an employee about what they know (sound of crickets) nothing, because it didn't happen. The store managers at the very least would have been notified. 3)why would they get rid of just the rock climbing ambassadors, and not alpine, surf, endurance,or paddling? Could they really can Lynn Hill or Ron Kauk? Doubtfull. If they stuck by Dean through all the Delecate Arch stuff, then why fire him now? 4) That is just not the way Patagonia does bussiness. They could easily cut funding from some other area and keep the ambassadors.
Very clever, well delivered, but fake nonetheless. It's funny though, some people really went after eachother here. Any excuse to rip on someone else I guess...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 11, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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Chico,
What doo you mean when you say "could they really can Lynn Hill or Ron Kauk? Are they protected? Patagonia can can whomever they please. While I have some respect for Hill and Kauk I hardly think anyone in the adventure sport arena is entitled to anything. You dont need big name climbers to field test gear. There are plenty of "no names" who push the limits of sport everyday who walk back into work on Monday morning without a word hint that they are on the leading edge of they're chosen sport. I would much rather see pictures and stories in the Patagonia catalog from average joe adventurers than "sponsored dirtbags".
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Chico
Trad climber
Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mar 11, 2007 - 09:22pm PT
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I mean that they are great ambassadors for the company and the sport, and they share the core values of Patagonia. Could they really can them for no major reason? I get what you are saying. They could bring back the dayglow uni-suit if they wanted. They can do whatever they want. It would just be an exceedingly bad move.
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Chico
Trad climber
Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mar 11, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Batrock,
I thought about the other part of your post on a bike ride today. You are probably right, high profile climbers are good for PR, but who will really find out if gear is good or not? Celebrity climbers like Lynn and Ron? Mmmm, maybe. Nah, I think it's got to be the total dirtbag no-name climber who shuts up and puts up and really needs his/her gear to last for 20 years b/c they continually quit their job to go climbing, or are likely to thrash their gear in some hellacious epic, which seems unlikely for Ron and Lynn. So by this logic, the best gear testers are either transient construction workers, or Brits. There you go, Make all Brits gear testers, and you are guaranteed gear that will last through the crappiest weather possible on the planet.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Mar 11, 2007 - 11:20pm PT
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well hell, I think I'll just call Kauk and ask him!
but this IS a great troll!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 11, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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oh yeah baby, had me goin'!!!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 11, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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chico you have touched on a couple good things here.
first of all, rock climbers are gona help patagonia sell what? maybe some t-shirts, sports bra, capilene undies?
meanwhile a guy like steve house needs teh ebst alpine gear available.
and dean? wtf did he help sell. a t shirt?
werner already said he bought a perfectly acceptable tshirt for 2 bucks...
fact is, patagonia is not well represented by most fairweather rock climbers. at least if i were in charge of the palce, i would be careful about sponsorship of guys like that.
the next question is obvious. how many of you are gonna throw down the bucks for patagonia at full price? last time i bought that it was at an outlet. my guess is the full price clientele probably dont know lynn hill and ron kauk. hell you think they know who timmy F is? christ I hardly know why i ought to be impressed with him cuz i dont watch the climbing vids and am not into the scene...
not didin on anyone, but clearly, patagonia's full price clientele is not your average climber...
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johnhayes
Trad climber
seattle
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Mar 12, 2007 - 01:07am PT
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potter soloed fitzroy twice and cerro torre and did a oneday on torre egger, in a tshirt? i;ll buy one, hell---i'll buy two
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Chico
Trad climber
Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mar 12, 2007 - 01:08am PT
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Hawkeye,
I couldn't agree with you more. But I gotta tell you man, I'm torn...I'm totally f-ing torn, 'cause I want to support a business that has some scruples about their enviro impact, but if you look at the best photos of Dean in their catalog, he is wearing cut-off jeans, not fancy DWR soaked stretchy Man-pris, and there is something profoundly phony about that.
If you go to their web site and read about Steve and Vince's climb of the Rupal Face of Nanga Parbat, you see exactly what they wore, and just have to say Damn! Those guys F'n' rocked it! At that point, it is totally worth it to throw down the cash for the clutch items. The rock climbing Ambassadors don't sell jack that anybody else isn't making. But, they do give good PR. You know, kiss a few hands, shake a few babies. Oops, other way around. It looks good, and feels good, and those that can will buy...full retail, and so the game is played, A fool and his money... I still think this is a troll though. The proof is in the puddin'. I'll belive it when I see it.
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johnhayes
Trad climber
seattle
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Mar 12, 2007 - 01:12am PT
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dont they make jeans? dont really want to see potter in man-pris.
that catalog with steve house talking about steve house wasn't so good. good climb on nanga parbat though. maybe potter would get more alpine pix for the catalog if he wasn't on free solo.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Mar 12, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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Man, I wish I could chime in on this thread, but then I'd have to burn my source...and we go way back.
Feck, hate not spraying when the spew is full of dirty dank nastiness regarding our "heroes".
And true.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Mar 12, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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Okay - I have to chime in on this on a couple of levels.
1) In all probability, this is a troll. But it's worth discussing.
2) Why do you suppose companies sponsor athletes? I'm a little tired of ST posters indignantly saying it's just for advertising and selling gear and making money (*gasp!*), like that's some sort of revelation, and a sin, besides.
No sh#t.
That's the stated purpose for sponsoring an athlete - are you kidding me? - it's not some top secret strategy.
And besides, how much environmental impact could Patagonia have if it didn't make a significant amount of money? Get real, man.
3)And it's not about "testing" the gear, either. The tests are done, man. That's why the gear is now for sale. The Pro-Deal program is their testing market - along with customer feedback - and they'll take ideas to better the gear and put out new stuff next year. Like every other company - including Mountain Hardwear, which, by the way, has been owned by Columbia for years - it's not like that happened last night, for Christ's sake. MH still makes badass gear - Columbia knows to leave their design and manufacturing processes alone - that's why they bought MH - cause it's a good company.
4) Also tired of punks whining about the prices of Patagonia gear. Are you really too dense to realize how much longer Patagonia clothing lasts when compared to most other clothing labels? You buy one pair of Pat pants and they outlast like 5 pair of your other brands - and are more comfy for outdoor sh#t, too. Are you kidding me? The cost, if anything, is actually significantly less, 'cause you don't have to replace it every season. Which falls under their stated policy of living simply and doing more with less. Besides, with the purchase price you buy the best customer service in the outdoor industry. Are you really going to try to tell me that you don't know that? Bunch of whiny babies.
5) And what do you suppose these guys were getting and are loosing? I seriously doubt that Patagucci was footing the whole bill for them to survive. If anything, clothing and maybe some travel costs is all you get in that business. So it's not like they're losing their livelihoods. And if Pat feels that they're not selling enough gear (ROI), then they're perfectly within their rights to get rid of 'em - with or without ceremony - and find the athletes that people look up enough to to emulate them. That's the one and only reason for sponsorship - and rightfully so - to promote and sell a brand, a product, and a philosophy. That's how it works - it's not charity.
Okay, rant over.
-Aaron
ps: I look up to almost all of the rock ambassadors that patagonia now has - particularly Ron, Lynne and Katie - and the previous rant is not to malign any of them. But if they no longer fit, what's the point of keeping them on? That goes for any job.
pss: I still think the whole damn thing is a troll.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 12, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
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AC, Whitey, I used to hang out with David Yerian back around 1975-76. If you see him say hello to him for me please.
Cheers
Patrick
PS
And Ron is one of the nicest top climbers I have met. He always had time to chat with me. The last time I ran into him was ice climbing in Lee Vining Canyon back in 1985. A good dude.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 12, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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I heard those ambassadors were executed, any confirmation on this point?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 12, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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Last seen goin'n incognito in a'bago headed east!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 12, 2007 - 05:43pm PT
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Does anyone know of Patagonia's official statement on this issue or do you figure they will say nothing and hope the issue simply goes away? And I'm still curious about the ambassadors from other sports like surfing and so forth. It just seems so odd that the owner and founder, a climbier himself, would have let his own folks go--but I'm sure there are reasons and that's why I'd like to hear them.
JL
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 12, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
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Sorry to hear about this. I think the program had merit, while I don't agree with some things some of the ambassadors have done. Maybe dealing with those on a "per ambassador" basis would have been better. Of course, we still don't know if this is all true or not, eh?
I also feel for the athletes. I don't know about all of them, but I do know, for certain, that a few of them make well into six figures. That's a lot of money for anyone to lose. It's tough for anyone to lose their job, regardless of how much they make.
The folks here trying to say that these atheletes aren't making decent money are only fooling themselves. Especially this comment - "If anything, clothing and maybe some travel costs is all you get in that business". Ummm... Yeah, right. There are definitely sponsored atheletes at a lower tier of the industry in this situation, but we're not talking about them here.
Ummm and while I'm picking on the above post... Pro-deals aren't about testing clothing or gear either. At all. Depending on what you refer to as a pro-deal, you're either getting, bascially, an employee cost on the gear or an even better deal on last year's gear (direct from the manufacturer). Different people refer to both programs as "pro-deals", which has become kinda the "catch-all" phrase for anyone getting any kind of discount on gear.
Testing is done by folks who climb hard, in addition to the athletes, in advance of the release of the product. Common sense says you don't sell prototype gear/clothing in a pro deal.
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pimp daddy wayne
Trad climber
[url=http://imageshack.us]http://img235.image
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Mar 12, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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[/url]
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Mar 12, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
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To say that we don't need sponsored climbers is saying that we don't want to promote our sport and keep it alive. To say that they don't really effect us is to say that climbing is not our passion. For me, just knowing that Lynn Hill freed the Nose has made me want to challenge all the limitations in my life. It has helped me open doors that were previously assumed unachievable. It is significant for I use many lessons I have learned from climbing in my life.
Also to say a climber doesn't need money to climb hard is silly. These days you are going to need sponsorship to afford just the basics of travel cost, entrance fees, lodging (even camping gets expensive) and food. Add that up and it is not for people with the limited budgets of yesterday. Just even entering a National Park is costly.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 12, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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Anastasia I think you are giving away all your power as a climber and as an indivdual if you think we really need "sponsored" climbers for climbing to live on.
For starters few climbers in the "golden age" of climbing had sponsorships. Some free gear here and there, a couple bucks here and there, but nobody got "paid to climb" as a full-time rock hero status job.
Secondly, climbing lives on every time I tell a story or rope up, not only when Sharma sends a new V14 or Dean solos a new roof crack. It's not a sport. Sports have arbitrary rules that can be objectively judged and there is a winner and loser. Climbing is ultimately a mode of travel.
Lastly, there are heaps of climbers doing things that would drop your jaw and NEVER get reported to magazines or posted on the Patagonia web site. They have jobs, they get by however they can and they climb hard and push the limits.
I'm not arguing that sponsorships shouldn't exist, but lets be honest...sponsorships are a MEANS OF ADVERTISING....they are not the foundation of our beloved pursuit. Arguing that we need sponsorships is to argue that we need to be advertised to.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 12, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
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^^^
what he said!
(...unless anyone ever wants to sponsor me, in which case these and all other sponsorships are indespensible... bachar? i solo a mean 5.7 pal, come on... how about just free shoes for my adult life? i could post heaps of pics hear on stupitopo w/ me in your kicks!)
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 12, 2007 - 09:13pm PT
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good post highdesert.
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petey23
climber
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Mar 12, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
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gotta agree with highdesert or whatever....Anastasia, are you saying that Lynn Hill would not have freed the nose if she wasn't sponsored? Or that someone wouldn't have come along and done it later if THEY weren't sponsored? To suggest that all advancement in climbing (or any sport) is driven thanks to sponsorships is foolish.
A. Not all advancements are made by sponsored climbers.
B. Not all sponsored climbers' achievements/advancements of the sport are a result of being sponsored. Correlation does not imply causation, as they say.
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gw
Social climber
washington, dc
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Mar 12, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
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I disagree. This man would not have done such great things without sponsors.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Mar 12, 2007 - 11:43pm PT
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*gets lawnchair and popcorn*
Someone brought Reardon into it. Here we go...
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Chico
Trad climber
Mt. Shasta, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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gw,
I'm laughing over here. You don't think someone like Reardon would have been driven enough to solo like a ninja without sponsorship? I'm speechless dude(ette?).What planet do you live on? Sponsorship is just a perk. If you are going to be a soloist, you are going to do it, sponsored or not.
No, wait, you are probably right, without sponsorship he would have probably just delivered for Dominoes or something. Riiiiight...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:29am PT
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without sponsorship, he obviously would just be another holliwood producer of porn.
i am shocked at you all for not realizing that.....
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:22am PT
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Doug Thompkins (North Face and later Esprix) was the original fat cat textile tycoon and meta oranginc Andy and everyone else has followed suit--from Patagonia to Robbins to who knows what else. It's not a bad model and it exploited the top achievers and all around coolios, seamlessly weaving them into the branding, which on the face of it was alway a grass roots kind of fandango but in fact was spun that way and orchestrated down to the last adverb per what was said and who said it.The result was a faux spontaneous wheat grass yubba dub concoxion of orgainc burgers and precious new age mottos declaring most anything that will vouchsafe their current stand as being the nee plus ultra of organic swank spiritual back room hand job tomfollery, all for the price of the 100 organic underware, surely a steel at twice the price. There's cult aspect to all of this jive, plain and simple, and always will be so long as tghere are high lamas posturing in the shadows who hold truth and bear it out here and there for the benefit of the young hackerswho are ten times a jhip and educated and dedicatied but don't yet have the millions that gives the cachet to all that fatulous rapping.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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nice largo...god damn.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:40am PT
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Ohh, Ma-a-a-a-n, Largo, that last run-on rant - misspellings, typos and all - was so completely accurate in its' depiction of Outdoor Retail faux reality, that I must take my hat off to you, brother. And may you undergo nicotine withdrawal on a regular basis, for the sake of us all.
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Degaine
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:32am PT
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Nice, Largo.
Yeah, it’s funny to see the baggy pants, I’m a badass mofo gansgsta’ or rapper styles so prevalent now in winter sports whether it be snowboarding or freestyle skiing. Even funnier when you see French or Swiss or Austrian teenagers wearing those clothes on the slopes in a place like Chamonix, so far removed from the prison culture (California prison culture?) and poor Californian inner cities from which those styles originated. They’re so “’core” as are the companies at trade shows selling that same “grass roots” “core” image at 450€ a pop for a pair of Gore-tex pants.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:44am PT
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"The result was a faux spontaneous wheat grass yubba dub concoction of organic burgers and precious new age mottos declaring most anything that will vouchsafe their current stand as being the nee plus ultra of organic swank spiritual back room hand job tomfoolery"
I just wanted to pay homage to a wonderful sentence.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:45am PT
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A Crowley check your e-mail
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:48am PT
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Nice one JL!
Seeing the interaction between Largo's words and the folks on the Taco always raises this visual for me of him on a stage in low light, dark glasses, smokey bar room atmosphere. Seated at the keyboard, he lays out a few riffs here and there while the patrons nod and tap their toes, with the occasional "yeah!" and "swing it Largo!" Miles Davis of the written word...
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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So have we reached a consensus? Post of the year? Let's do it.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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Anastasia said:
"Also to say a climber doesn't need money to climb hard is silly. These days you are going to need sponsorship to afford just the basics of travel cost, entrance fees, lodging (even camping gets expensive) and food. Add that up and it is not for people with the limited budgets of yesterday. Just even entering a National Park is costly. "
You are talking about a free ride here. Which is what I call a sense of entitlement. Time to get real. A friend on mine who is into his 50s and climbs 5.14 lives off of very little. He has a job in a climbing store and makes enough so that he can climb. Yeah he gets a little free gear here and there but for the most part he pays for everything himself.
There are people out there who climb just as hard if not harder than many of the "big" names mentioned so far. My friend above is one such person. The difference between them and the names is that most have real jobs they come back to after the weekend is over.
Quite frankly I am tired of the current generation of "big" names in rock - much of what is being done is so incremental and without imagination. It is quite obvious that all it is fodder for the rags and sponsors - oooh look Tommy did the Sacrum again today in 2:30:23 he shaved 1.5 seconds off the best and he freed all but the 21.4 feet of the great circle jerk on his 78th try.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 13, 2007 - 10:33am PT
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This whole thread waas worth it for that Largo rant. I was 'at' the table with steelmonkey we were swilling thunderbird, Largo had on a beret and shades, he sat on a stool and occasionally glanced at another stool with an unopened pack 'o' camels on it.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 10:44am PT
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Coonyard Sounds Off Part 3??
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joane
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 10:50am PT
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As with most things it's a matter of balance. I think without the tech consultants it would be a sad state of affairs, input and testing in different environments over time by people who have been around long enough to know and have the objectivity to go beyond the passing fancies is a key to improvement in any business much less selling stuff to be used like climbing stuff --all weather conditions etc.
But the sponsorship decisions should be balanced between how much more you're willing to pay for a blue thingy versus a green thing and a better piece of equipment/gear or whatever. There is always a kind of generic game versus a brand name game going on to create a loyal buying public but it seems to me that for something like climbing which has a lot of technical requirements to sell, I'd rather pay more for high quality than for who is selling it. But I really don't know the ratios of the % of pass thru cost of sponsorship to the various company's products.
Advertising most certainly puts up the price of anything. So would I choose to buy one product over another one because I like one sponsor better than another? No. But when I see stunning advertising photos of great climbers who are sponsored, hmm , that has a bit of influence--if I think they are above being corrupted--so that they would only recommend something they themselves really believed in based on their experience and skill.
A connection that stays with me as a buyer longer is when these sponsored climbers, if they are generally being funded by the climbing community who buys their product testimonials, participate in a real way with the community that supports it. So that it's more of a reciprocal relationship mutually beneficial, not just the one way down to top concept. This is just one aspect.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 13, 2007 - 11:00am PT
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They are going to buy the rock. One time purchase. Paint their logo on it. Take pictures whenever they want. No royalties. The rock won't ever do anything bad, except maybe fall from time to time, but that will be the fault of weather or climbers.
Expect to see new names like Patagonia Recreation Valley, Black Diamond Gorge, Fish Products Monument (ok, maybe not that). The former ambassadors will be able to work as tour guides, kiosk clerks, and retailers in the local official shop - climbing on their off time as usual.
Occasionally, for PR, they will announce raptor closings. Buy now, before they become Wall Street darlings du jour.
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shumaker1
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Don't belive anything from a chat site that does not sound right until it is confirmed by a reliable source...
FROM SNEWSNET.COM
Did you hear?... Rumor mill about Patagonia climbing ambassadors is way off base!
Posted: 03/12/2007 In Category(s): Outdoor
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An original post on a well-known climbing forum, SuperTopo.com, on March 9 at 9:17 p.m. PST claiming Patagonia "unceremoniously sh#t canned the rock climbing ambassadors" could not have been further from the truth. In actuality, only three climbing ambassadors are leaving. Dean Potter and his wife Steph Davis/Potter are parting ways with Patagonia. Additionally, Katie Brown is leaving the ambassador fold.
SNEWS® was told that Patagonia and the Potters mutually decided not to renew their ambassador contract for the 2007 fiscal year. Jen Rapp, Patagonia's director of public relations, told SNEWS®, "We wish them the best of luck in their future endeavors and we thank them for our years of partnership."
Rapp added, "Patagonia is looking forward to continued collaboration and product testing, design and marketing with the other athletes as we have for many years."
Patagonia's ambassador athletes are also spokespeople and field representatives for the brand in numerous outdoor sports, including rock and alpine climbing, men's and women's surfing, paddling, Nordic and alpine skiing, snowboarding and trail running.
SNEWS® View: How brave of SuperTopo.com poster "hirigger" to wait until late evening on Friday to post what he or she had to know would obviously be an inflammatory statement: "Yesterday Patagonia unceremoniously sh#t canned the rock climbing ambassadors...you know, the ones being touted as the soul of the sport in the new Yosemite spring catalog we all received last week. looks like they got their use out of them... Ron kauk, Lynn Hill, Dean Potter, Steph Davis, Katie Brown and others-GONE." No chance for Patagonia to respond or for anyone to actually be able to check the facts. In short order, there were 142 posts to the forum, many ripping Patagonia for something the company had not done. And this underscores a very key difference between responsible journalism and irresponsible rumor mongering -- fact-checking. Hirigger should be embarrassed and, if anyone knows who he or she is, made a public example of for being, well, an (you fill in the blank):. If you want to send an email, the profile says it should go to onehighrigger@yahoo.com. As for the Potters and Patagonia parting ways, no surprise there. Dean wrote the epitaph to his ambassador contract when he decided it would be a good idea to poach Delicate Arch in Utah's Arches National Park.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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Okay, let me clean up that nicotine withdrawl rant of mine.
Doug Thompkins (North Face and later Esprit) was the original golden thumb, fat cat textile tycoon and meta oranginc Andy, and every other 60s era Yosemite climber with bid-ness aspirations followed Doug's coattails - Chouinard, Robbins, and who knows the rest. (Little known secret: it was Thompkins' wife who had a little clothing line called Plain Jane which triggered the whole shebang).
The Thompkins work model was a great one - plenty of time off for adventuring (kayaking in the 80s, mainly), make exciting and comfortable clothes, have them made in Hong Kong (one year he exported more than a billion dollars of threads out of HK). The advertising (especially with Chouinard) was 60-70s faux coolio, always anchored at some level with real folks who were projected to be just a little more connected, smelly, hip, talented, natural, and basically more lyrical than the rest of us.
These meta cool "common Joes" were seamlessly woven into the branding, which on the face of it was always a grass roots kind of fandango but in fact was spun that way and orchestrated down to the last adverb per what was said and who said it. Again, the unstated credo behind all those photos and all that ad copy was that these were the authentic folks, the real people, devoid of put-on, guff, ego, self consciousness, et al. They had more meaningful relationships with their dogs than you did with you wife or boyfriend. The result was a proto spontaneous wheat grass yubba dub concoction of yams, organic burgers and precious new-age mottos declaring most anything that would vouchsafe their current stand as being the nee plus ultra of organic swank spiritual back room hand job tomfollery, all for the price of their 100 dollah organic under wear. There's cult aspect to all of this jive, as well, and manifests in the negative judgement toward anyone who fails to embrace their "save the environment" campaign as the only viable pursuit of mankind, now and forever.
What you have when you scrape off all the social accretions and insider hip hoppery is an expensive but great product you are likely to get sick of before it wears out. Admit it--Patagonia product is peerless and it always has been. Just about all the other stuff, especially the core message, suffers mightily not from lack of content, importance and relevance of theme, and commitment to same, rather the method of discrimination is such that it's in-grown and hierarchical. It's not an intellectual organization nor should it be one, or could it ever be one, but you'd like to see a little more original thinking coming out of the place.
But that's their business. I just think it's a shame that they have decided to use a grass roots approach of featuring real people doing real things and then show those real folks the back door once it came time to pay some little bit for the pleasure.
Still unanswered is the question of why only climbers got sacked??
JL
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ralph_teh_klimber
climber
ralph town
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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Well if any of them need a job, we will be rigging and doing hard rock excavation along a cliff side for about 4 weeks. Mostly with rock drills and hammers. Prolly line them out at $25/hr with no to little experience with real work.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 13, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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fatty- it's not the shorts that make you look leggless, it's the girth at the top of the shorts- duh! check w/ yer women friends about using vertical stripes to slim your appearance a bit...
my last comment on pattgucci- they really need to hire some new color people (apparently they do all the color selection in house), usually about half their product lines just look off to me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
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"Still unanswered is the question of why only climbers got sacked??"
Exactly, it's not like he stained the arch with tobacco spittle or anything really gross. But it does look like Newton's Third Law of Motion holds up even in the slickedback and curled up dimensions of public relations.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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I'm not still shopping in the childrens department
gongrats on graduating to the "big and tall" stores
(and we know you ain't that tall)
so ok, maybe the potter clan (eventually) got canned for dean's poaching of DA (i love the bit about the mutual split- "yeah listen, this free money is way to restrictive, and i am sick of seeing pictures of me on slacklines, those are private moments, i need a clean break from this corporate atmosphere, i quit!")
but i wonder whay katie brown is out?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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I talked to the guys yesterday. But I'm not saying anything here.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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Nope, you all have to talk to them yourselves. Bye now.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
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Those who know don't tell... but they can tell that they know... but... who really cares. Enough of the truth is out at last. Game over. Climb on, Dean, climb on, Steph. And Katie. Now you are free, even if the schwag isn't, anymore.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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So did they get fired?
JDF
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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While I won't be losing too much sleep over knott knowing the lurid details,
I am curious how "Timmy" was able to register those ST accounts using fake
patagonia.com e-mail addresses...
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 13, 2007 - 01:57pm PT
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The only mystery remaining....who is hirigger???
According to Supertopo legend, the answer will, most likely, only be revealed if (s)he develops a personna on the site, gets caught in their own frazzle of fray, and accidentally submits a telling post under a different, recognizable username....
That Snews story certainly had one thing(well - two, actually) more "off base" than the rumor thread, and that was the one offering up hirigger's email as if there was any potential at all that it belonged to a person who uses it in real life and suggest people spam the account. And thinking the OP would be ashamed....Hahaha. They got trade media coverage. Troll Extraordinaire.
Edit: Yes, HK - that is another mystery....Maybe the OP works in Patagonia's office.... Or used to, anyway. If so, I wouldn't think it would be an offense taken lightly.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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Tense times in the land of capilene.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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Who remembers what happened to the long-time sale reps (Jim Donni being one) from Patagonia???????
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Whoa. There's some serious hostility towards Yvon floating around here.
First, if you don't like how expensive their stuff is, don't buy it. It does last longer than a lot of other stuff, so maybe in the long run, some of their organic and post-consumer recycled items come close to having a little enviromental impact as buying a Wal-mart castoff at the thrift store.
Second, so he gets free advertising from athletes. So what? It's not like he forced anyone to wear the stuff.
Third, as far as the ambassadors go, it's not like they had contracts for life. I respect Ron, Lynn and Katie and would think it unfortunate that they wouldn't get some type of sponsorship, as they have contibuted significantly to the community. But they are not owed this. Dean on the other hand, probably cooked his own goose. That was not a case of any publicity is good publicity for Patagonia.
Finally, while they do market to yuppies and trustafarians, and maybe there is some hypocrisy going on, there are far worse companies around. They do give back to the environment, and I'd say made far more than token efforts to be responsible.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
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I don't think I'd put me in the worshipper category. I think I own only two Patagonia items - a wool sweater I've had for 20 years and an organic cotton jean jacket that I got at the outlet store about ten years ago.
I'm just trying to say that while they are not perfect, there are far worse companies out there, and that some of this criticism seems unjustified.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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I wasn't directing my comments specifically at your post -- there were a number of other posters that seemed to be criticizing Patagonia simply because their stuff is too expensive. And I don't particularly see how anyone could defend a decision to let Dean go. The others certainly, but Dean brought this completely on himself.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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I don't know, Magritte, it kind of sounded hostile to me when you called Yvon a vampire and the little bugger.
No doubt there's a certain amount of marketing spin in Patagonia's environmental policy. No doubt Patagonia has an environmental impact as a company, they all do. Is their environmental impact profile higher or lower than a similar size/type company? I don't know the answer to that but I think that's the question to ask.
As for the "ambassadors" losing their jobs... oh well, it happens. Maybe some former Enron employees would have some advice for them.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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DaftRat: "How could you ever trust a little Frenchman from Burbank?"
Well, if you're referring to YC, he was born in the U.S., to Quebecois parents. Which means, history and facts being what they are, that his ancestors arrived in North America before 1760. Long before most of ours. I believe he speaks at least some French (Quebecois), but that no more makes him French than speaking Hebrew makes someone Israeli.
And don't forget YC's very impressive climbing record.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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A couple of years back I saw a Patagonia add w/ Dean Potter. It had him quoted as saying that he had never voted, but this year he will because he see's all the places he loves being destroyed. They had a picture of him looking very noble and just. My first thought was..."well maybe if you had been voting for a few years you could have helped prevent all this."
Now they have most of their adds tied in with enviromentalism. I am all for the environment, but how good can it be for the environment when a company's products are produced in countries that have little or no regulation on environmental impact or little regard for human rights ( like worker's rights)?
Yvon sold out when he started knocking climbing a few years back, but still made a boat load of money off it. Rock climbing is (was?) Patagonia's life blood.
-JR
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
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Hey, I live in North Fork half the time. What do you know about Fresno Dome?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
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Quote:Finally, while they do market to yuppies and trustafarians, and maybe there is some hypocrisy going on, there are far worse companies around. They do give back to the environment, and I'd say made far more than token efforts to be responsible.
What's your point. Better to give than to be taxed on it.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Fresno Dome: Called Wamello by the local Indians, first discovered in 1834 by a Swedish traveler named Gus who witnessed a human sacrifice and then left....Oh you mean climbing knowledge?? Honestly, I have never climbed out there. I seem to be drawn to other things in the area and never get out there. Where at in North Fork do you live we might be neibhors ( Holy @#$% how do you spell that word???) Do you climb out there a lot?
Edit: HeHe let's hijack this thread!! All about NF now Haha.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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ScaredSilly said A friend on mine who is into his 50s and climbs 5.14 lives off of very little. He has a job in a climbing store and makes enough so that he can climb. Yeah he gets a little free gear here and there but for the most part he pays for everything himself.
I know the guy you are talking about. It can only be the one and only, MB. Started climbing with him in the 70's. He was my ropegun on many climbs. He is one hell of a guy.
They dont give out sponsorhsips based on someone being a hell of a guy. It may not be exclusive, but it aint inclusive.
Largo said, They had more meaningful relationships with their dogs than you did with you wife or boyfriend.
Doood. I know you really are tryin to paint a picture here but really? bestiality?
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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Haha ... you want to keep the bestkeptsecret under your hat. Do you know the Cascadel area? I love North Fork so much I want to make up a I Love North Fork song. We should start a "who could you picture at the Buckhorn" thread! How did that place get missed with all the climbers that go to the Valley? I mean, woah.
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JEM
Social climber
so cal
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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Random -
Patagonia no longer sells climbing gear in their home store, Ventura, CA.
JEM
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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They no longer sell climbing gear, period!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:50pm PT
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re:
Who remembers what happened to the long-time sale reps (Jim Donni being one) from Patagonia???????
right, who remembers their mass firing?
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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Ray's right. They should'v seen it, maybe weren't looking for it, or mayby didn't think they would get the same treatment they give regular employees.
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
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A. C. Is that what "Cascadel" means? Interesting
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Blanco
Sport climber
Calgary, AB
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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If this is the case that Patagonia has released their Climbing Ambassadors, then it likely is not as simple as it appears. After being in the industry since the mid-80's the one thing I can say is that the industry is really small by numbers and financially. Climbing gear just does not bring in a great deal of money. Snow sports, water sports, fly fishing, biking, and almost any other sport than climbing make financial sense. Think how mush it costs to go skiing – even backcountry – it is not an inexpensive outing. Skis @ $1000.00 – think how long you could climb on that! The most expensive climbing gear are ice tools $250.00/each and they certainly do not move off shelves like new boards. No matter how hard you try to stay on the climbing path, it just is not cost effective if you are a company that needs to finance itself. BDEL is going hard into the ski area, as it certainly has a great deal of money in it, all you need to do is prove your gear is good and you can gain a piece of it within a short time period. Climbing and climbers need years of proof and reliance in order to justify spending a few hundred dollars. Skiers spend that much on a day at the resorts. It’s not hard to see that this may happen and it may happen more with the core gear companies. Insurance rates are becoming problematic on profit. Yes, the profit word – all climbers need money, some are willing to live with little, so long as their life-style is in the front. If you want to make six-figures, the climbing industry just is not it, but if you want to make a decent living with great freedom and the time and ability to do what you love – that’s what the industry is about. If you do want to make all the money you can – start a climbing company and work your tail off for years and you may have a chance at making some great money – but you’ll likely hate climbing and all that goes with it.
Think about numbers – maybe five to ten million climbers in North America? That’s probably about the same number of skiers or surfers in California. Patagonia is a clothing company not a core climbing company, no matter how much we appreciate Y.C.’s efforts in his past. They are following a company plan to keep it on top of their niche. However his former company no BDEL is a core climbing company and having it lose any athletes would be a big blow to the industry.
Another climber thing is that we tend to use stuff until the bitter end – Steve Petro wrote about his 20yr old wool PG sweater and I’m sure he still wears it cause it still works. Not many skiers would be keen on something that is 2 years old.
To all the PG ambassadors – good wishes on the next stage, as we all have been there or will be.
JD LeBlanc
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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While I'm flattered to be mistaken for Petro and wish I could climb cracks that well, that's a different SteveP.
But yes I still have that sweater because even though it was about $150 new, it's been all over the world with me and through stuff would have long ago shredded or melted a fleece(made by Patagonia or anyone else).
P.S. There's no way there is anywhere near 5 million climbers. 500,000 might be more like it. Just makes your point more valid.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
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I love it when someone, uttering in a contemptuous tone, says, "Whatever you think, you're wrong - in the end it's ALL about the bottom line...
Well.
Congrat-u-f#cking-lations.
OF COURSE it's all about the bottom line. What else would it be about? You NEED profit to live. Profit is not a bad word, people. It's the whole point. Why else would anyone work, at all, ever, but for the ability to purchase your shelter, food, fun, and whatever (otherwise known as money)?
Patagonia is still perfectly within their rights to use athletes who agree to sell their product. And why on Earth would they keep them after they've outlived their usefullness?
You can outlive usefulness by breaking laws (or the intent of the law, if we're talking specifically about DP), and by no longer being identified by the community as being super inspirational (thru age, boredom, or just not climbing anymore), and therefore no longer be useful as a marketing tool. Why, then, would YC keep you on?
It ain't charity, folks. In case you haven't applied a little critical thought to how this goes, this is what I imagine the contract talk to go like:
YC: Hi. Right now, you seem to be someone who has the right image to the community to sell our clothes. How 'bout if you keep on climbing and doing what you're already doing, but with some free clothes, travel costs and a picture-taking crew?
Athlete: Uh, OK.
YC: Right. When you're no longer appealing or fresh to the community - say, in 5 years (sooner if you do something dumb enough to bring bad press to Patagonia) you can keep all the free stuff, but we'll just shake hands, wish you a good life, and stop sending you free stuff. You see, we're giving you free stuff for a while, 'cause it's going to sell the stuff for us. We're okay with that. In fact, that's what makes it worth giving you the free stuff. Is that pretty clear and okay with you?
Athlete: Wait. So all I have to do is do what I was going to already, but you might take my picture, and I get some clothes that are pretty decent quality and last a long time? In effect, you're just going to make my life a little easier for a while?
YC: Right.
Athlete: And so then, when I don't fit the direction your company is going and trying to portray, everything's cool - and we dissolve the business relationship? And I get to keep the clothes?
YC: Uh huh.
Athlete: Cool. I'm a size Medium pant, size Large Top. I'll take one of everything, please. You can catch me slacklining in Yosemite for the next 6 months if you need to reach me. After that, I'm going on a 6 year road trip - I'll check in annually in January or so.
YC: Okay, have fun!
Trust me, folks - neither party is confused or being taken advantage of.
-Aaron
ps: Still a bad-ass rant, Largo.
pss: And you're right, whoever said that the Pro-Deal program isn't for testing gear.
edit ps: good post, Blanco! I agree.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:35pm PT
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Largo,
I like the original better for the beat. Seems to go well with Donna Lee or Giant Steps. Nice one.
Cheers,
pc
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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i have followed along for awhile, and i have had an ephany:
this really is not an interesting thread anymore
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joane
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 05:55pm PT
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Wow, that's some file of facts you have, it must be a subject close to your heart. And it does paint a picture , your picture, and a lot of the allegations the pseudonym Magritte poster made were critical in finding fault although I'm not sure it is in the sense of finding the truth.
If it was a black and white picture your looking for then it should at least have some contrasts. But all I see in those posts is black.
It always makes me think a little more when I read posts that are so filled with bits and pieces of inside knowledge of stuff that I haven't heard before that are touted as facts. The sweep of the allegations being spun off in the Magritte posts in particular because they are so detailed and lengthy, could be true, may be true or are not true.
But it's just too hard to believe it all to be honest. I believe based on newsworthy reports of what she's done that Lynn Hill for example, is associated with Patagonia and is a pretty solid climber and credible person . I have no idea who Magritte is.
I'd say checking your sources is as important as standing in judgment in finding fault, especially based on not much analysis and broad, conclusory allegations in targeting one company or one industry. And I agree with other posts that your use of some of descriptions of individuals and companies made up of individuals were scandalous. But that is one person's viewpoint on a "chat" forum.
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:06pm PT
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Joane, don't know what you mean because that was all props to Patagonia. They have had more impact on the outdoor industry than any other I can think of: an apple non an orange. I did drone on about stuff, you're right. But you're basically saying not to pull on Superman's Cape. I said nothing slanderous at all.
P.S. Ron and Lynn will climb better in retirement (whenever that might be?) than most people will at career peak.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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Magritte said:
"When someone is climbing at the level of Ron or Lynn or the others, they DON'T have the time to have office jobs. "
Moose Balls! See post #162. Plently of folks doing this and they have real jobs.
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vegastradguy
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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nice thread. okay, i actually called Patagonia and got the actual information from the company.....
Dean Potter and Steph Davis have parted ways with Patagonia. (no, i do not have the reasons behind it)
In addition, Katie Brown has also left (again, i do not have reasons)
The rest of the ambassadors are still around....so, there you go.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:11pm PT
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I like Blanco's post and think he hit the nail on the head.
Good info and a really good objective analysis.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:15pm PT
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Oh my God! Information! I could weep!
Thanks, Vegas
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:15pm PT
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might be spin control
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:20pm PT
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Oh for sure, but it's worlds better than, "If this is true than I think...."
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pcousar
Sport climber
White Salmon, WA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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"You NEED profit to live"
obviously tahoe climber was not a business major. Ever heard of a 501C3?
profit = revenues - cost of materials - cost of labor;
cost of labor is what folks get paid to live on. profit is what the owners of the company pocket, beyond their salary.
companies that make clothes in asia, and then squawk about 10% back to the environment are full of sh#t. There is little that is socially progressive about patagonia.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Magritte: I grew up in Cascadel, the dirt road to the right of the Cascadel Arch ( kinda like delicate arch!) There is a decent boulder at the bottom of the falls, sure you've seen it if you go down there. Do you live in cascadel? Not trying to keep anything secret, just not advertising on a thread w 200+ hits. E mail me if you want to know where.
-JR
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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I emailed Patagonia and got back a reply today.
Hi Erik,
Thank you for your email. No, no truth. Here's the link to the article that was published this morning.
Have a good day!
Nikki
Patagonia Customer Service
http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/08273.html
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
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hirigger's posts by themselves were not worth trusting, since their only two posts ever were on this thread.
But the "confirmation" by Ain't no flatlander, quoting Lynn Hill, made it seem credible to many people here, since Ain't no flatlander has a posting history here and seems to know some well known climbers.
Mar 10, 2007, 08:01am PST
Ain't no flatlander
> Not a troll. Lynn was at the BRC on Thusday and confirmed that all the athletes lost their sponsorship.
They also seem to dislike Patagonia, given their later comment about Melinda Chouinard. So I guess they decided to troll/lie to attempt to hurt Patagonia, and possibly they were in collusion with hirigger from the start. I don't see other trolling in previous posts by Ain't no flatlander, though, so it's not obvious what their story is.
Another possibility is that they were very inaccurate when they said "all the athletes" and somehow meant this to only refer to Dean, Steph and Katy. But this seems unlikely, since they were quoting Lynn Hill, who is one of the sponsored athletes, although possibly not one of the athletes?
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Mar 13, 2007 - 06:55pm PT
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So that's it or are we going to see everyone else go when their contracts are over? Patagonia PR, please answer this question.
(Small details can be big things...)
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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I just got off the phone with Patagonia Customer Service.
Dean, Steph, and Katie have not renewed their contracts. No other comments were available.
Brad
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:19pm PT
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John Long, in the throes of a nic-fit, wrote:
“The result was a faux spontaneous wheat grass yubba dub concoxion of orgainc burgers and precious new age mottos declaring most anything that will vouchsafe their current stand as being the nee plus ultra of organic swank spiritual back room hand job tomfollery, all for the price of the 100 organic underware, surely a steel at twice the price.”
It's like Dr. Thompson's back at the typewriter on a newfound amphetamine-laced steroid you take from an eyedropper. That is some pure, damn poetry. Best post of 2007 to date.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:33pm PT
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Good to hear that not all were let go/left and that the program is still in place.
I still find it amazing that you guys think these people aren't getting paid good $$$ from Patagucci. Highly confused.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:36pm PT
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RE:
"it's like Dr. Thompson's back at the typewriter on a newfound amphetamine-laced steroid you take from an eyedropper. That is some pure, damn poetry. Best post of 2007 to date."
I thought it was amazing too.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:37pm PT
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John has a number of excellent observations.
I love Patagonia stuff because the stuff I bought 20 years ago is still being used. So while expensive, it wears like iron (probably iron wouldn't have lasted as long).
The Chouinard catalog thing is wonderful in that it reminds me of the thing they did in the 70's. Probably done well enough so that you never minded being sold something, which is the point of sending the stuff out... while not deeply intellectual, intelligent enough to be interesting to open up and look through. I skipped a lot of the environmental rants...
...but it is a business, and the problem with using authentic people is that they do authentic things which could run into trouble with the authorities. Do they really have any choice in appearing to condone the recent actions of some of their climbing ambassadors by keeping them on? I mean, weren't you all offended by the "f*#k aid climbing" comment on the "freeing" of the WFLT video!
Seriously though, it's a business. They don't owe people anything... even if they appropriate their authenticity... people send photos and participate in the catalog thing mostly for the notoriety, the fame, such as it is.
Bidness is bidness, as they say.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 13, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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HAHAHA! We can always count on you, can't we, Dingus?
Thanks!
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 13, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
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A lot of people are posting about having a 20 year old piece of clothing from Patagonia that is still in good shape. I am by no means a full time climber and I like Patagonia’s stuff. But even as a weekend warrior I have eventually worn out all my Patagonia stuff, multiple pairs of shorts have been retired because of too many holes and worn out seams after hard use. I have an old Patagonia pile jacket that has you can see through. I have a Patagonia soft shell that has changed color from too much use in the sun. If you have 20 year old gear that is still in good shape it is from lack of use. Take your Patagonia jeans up a Joshua Tree off width they won’t last as long as wearing them to the movies.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 13, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
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sheeesus. you think i am gonna use that expensive ssheet outdoors? you mean other than taking it downtown? dewd.
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Magritte
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:29pm PT
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Woah Randomtask. The road to the right of the Cascadel Arch? That's a primo area. I'm the road to the right of the road to the right of the arch. Are you still on the road to the right of the Arch?
The other stuff ... my bad. I've been disappointed, you're only disappointed when you expect too much.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:31pm PT
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CosmicCragsman should post a picture of this old Patagonia fleece from....like 20 years ago, maybe more, that he added pink trim and....was it a Penguin print? I can't remember. But I saw it, and it was clear he wears it all the time(and used to live in Jtree and still climbs there), and the thing actually does look....well, unique for sure. But it looks like it hasn't even entered middle age yet.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 13, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
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You'll have to excuse my nicotine deprived desperately withdrawling rants about Patagonia. As though anyone there cares what I say about any of it. I guess part of the reason it's a flashpoint is that Patagonia is one of the few stable things that's always been around since I first started seriously climbing in 1971. I sort of learned how to be a climber and a person by copying the attitudes and general existential vibe of the old Chouinard catalogues. They were like my high school yearbooks, and like most all American climbers, Chouinard and Patagonia are things we have aged with, all of us togethe. In that sense Patagonia is a kind of unstated spokesman for a lot of people of my generation--not so much by choice, but because the company reflects values and ideas that are at least in the wide sense are important to most of us. I can lampoon Patagonias new age vegetarian kitchen but I'd much rather eat there than at Fat Burger. And while I bash the precious ad copy that goes along with photos of folks haning out in Mexico or surfing or kayaking or whatever, I'm more likely than not going to enjoy doing those same persuits.
I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of have come to expect perfection out of Patagonia according to our own view of what perfection actually is or should be. That's why I was taken back by reports (probably not true) that several of the Ambassadors had been dumped outright. This is probably not at all true and even if it is there's always another side of the story. Either way, when I really think about it, I might balk at lionizing Yvon Chouinard and mock a lot of the rhetoric and neo-hippie, eco-seer, simmering lentil, drop-into-the-essence flowstate groment with the awe-shucks humility and the higher virtue biodiesel wankamataz, I'm rather proud of what that company has done.
JL
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 14, 2007 - 12:02am PT
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John, you write:
"I sort of learned how to be a climber and a person by copying the attitudes and general existential vibe of the old Chouinard catalogues."
At this point in our history, many of my particular generation (I'm 32, and I've been climbing since I was 14 or 15) learned to "be a climber" via much of your own writing. When I visit Camp 4 and my friends over in the corner, in the big white tents, it's patently obvious that most (if not all) of us have been emulating your own vibe... whether we mean to or not.
Remember the '98 Valley season? Dean, Timmy, Sue Nott, Leo, Cedar, Heidi, et al. come to mind, trying to stay out of trouble with the man, climbing walls faster than they'd as yet been ascended, Scotty Burke working the Nose. Add onto their august sportsmanship the tacit Camp 4 chicaney --and the legends that grow from such things-- and we now have our (perhaps) fourth generation of so-called dirtbags.
FWIW I'm fairly confident that all Patagonia's Ambassador/Athletes make a solid living wage, enough to purchase real estate. As they should.
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joane
climber
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Mar 14, 2007 - 08:24am PT
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Hi Magritte,
Just a quick note to your re-post on the scandalous stuff. I think if you re-read your post on what you wrote that consumers should be aware of you'll see where I'm coming from, (you write that there are misstatements at least or outright lies on the biodegrable stuff which presumably has a definition somewhere for advertising, using foreign child labor, which many orgs will find warrants intervention of same nature, etc. etc etc.} It sure is great that there wasn't a lot of name calling and your follow up post to mine is essentially saying you didn't mean it to be scandalous so hey that's important. And for sure it's important to check out the truth. But good will and reputation for people and companies is how we all get along. So great, investigate, but I think the conclusions should bear some relation to facts, not gossip. Anyway, thanks for getting back to my comment, I appreciate it.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 14, 2007 - 10:27am PT
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Thread getting better now, though one should never have to apologize for creating a new art form.
Being alive is a long educational process by the end of which you have learned who your friends are; the whole time knowing you will never completely agree with anyone. It is like being joined at the hip to a monster, and being thankful for the company.
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Staples10
climber
Jeffrey City, WY
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Mar 14, 2007 - 11:20am PT
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There is rampant speculation about Patagonia's profits. Has anyone actually seen their books? I doubt it, since it's closely held but an examination of their income statement compared to other competitors would shed some light on this thread. The only person I know who worked at Patagonia said YV was largely hands off, until he'd come in and say, "We're moving to organic cotton" and then leave it to the managers to figure out how to implement the decision and not bankrupt the business. If the business is still run this way, with YV making sudden, sweeping strategy changes w/o regard for the financial consequences, it's possible that Patagonia is less financially strong that many here are assuming. And this would undermine some of the greedy bastard rhetoric posted on this thread.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Mar 14, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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A lot of theorizing there but I doubt you would find them financially weak.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 14, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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My only contribution to this thread has been to enquire about Yerian’s whereabouts and to just say that I think Ron is a fine man, at least he was always friendly with me.
I figure that is about 1¢
So now for the other cent.
Why is everybody getting so worked up about this? Especially when the facts are/were not known. As mentioned, Patagonia is a company and companies don’t operate very long in the red, unless they are supported by a government, such as Halliburton (couldn’t resist a bit of politicking), or should I say, by the taxpayer. So profit is a key to running a successful company. Duh.
Of course, YC and his financial people want to watch costs. If a company goes out of business, where does that leave its employees? As well as the management? The answer is obvious.
Ethically, I haven’t followed Patagonia’s activities much, but they do seem to rise above the standards of most companies.
I waited before posting anything to this thread (outside of the aforementioned) to see if what, if any, facts came out before commenting. So it seems that three of the eight rock climbing ambassadors have parted company for whatever reason. Was it to do with any actions that one two or all three did that brought adverse publicity to the company? I certainly can’t say, and since I deal with PR people and press officers all of the time, the company may not say, at least the full story. We may hear from one or all of the three about what happened, but if there are sour grapes involved, or personality clashes, I’d take with a pinch of salt any story I heard.
But, to reiterate, I couldn’t really care that people parted company with Patagonia, though if they were really shat upon, that would make me view the company more negatively.
Let’s all get a life, especially the trolls, and let this thread drift into oblivion and become thread dead.
Oh my gawd, I bumped this thread with this post. Eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Mar 14, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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go LARGO:
" I might balk at lionizing Yvon Chouinard and mock a lot of the rhetoric and neo-hippie, eco-seer, simmering lentil, drop-into-the-essence flowstate groment with the awe-shucks humility and the higher virtue biodiesel wankamataz"
you nailed it.
Thanks.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Hell
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Mar 14, 2007 - 01:52pm PT
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I think it all went to hell in a handbasket when Brooke Shields started espousing Patagony warm and fuzzies when she was a college kid at Princeton not taking the football physics classes she was supposed to take.
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Wade Icey
Social climber
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Mar 16, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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what the hell...beats working bump
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Mar 16, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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so...
then...
was that delicate arch thing really a "Not-So-Free Solo"?
"Fifty grand a year will buy a-lot-a beer"
(what was the name of that band from back before MTV went hip-hop?)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 16, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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Timbukthree
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 16, 2007 - 09:36pm PT
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you used to be a candle in the wind
now you're just a big shot in the dark.....
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 25, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
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Interesting...
-Brian in SLC
http://www.jacksonholenews.com/article.php?art_id=1567
Climber Potter, Patagonia agree to split the synchilla
Climbing ambassador is out of sponsorship job following climb of Delicate Arch.
Dean Potter's relationship with his sponsor, Patagonia, hit a snag with his free-solo ascent of Delicate Arch in Utah last year, which also brought criticism from the climbing community. While he said he learned a lesson, Potter wonders whether too many regulations prevent people from experiencing wild places on their own terms. NEWS&GUIDE PHOTO / ANGUS M. THUERMER JR.
By Angus M. Thuermer Jr.
March 21, 2007
Dean Potter and his wife, Steph Davis, two of the most accomplished mountaineers in the world, will no longer be rock climbing ambassadors for the Patagonia outdoors clothing company, Potter said this week in Jackson.
The split between the famous couple and the well-known company comes almost a year after Potter made a controversial ascent of Delicate Arch in Arches National Park, Utah, last spring. The latest development in Potter’s high-profile career, which moved into dicey terrain following the arch ascent, will put him at arm’s length from a company that has pioneered environmentalism around the globe in a fashion never before seen.
Potter, a superb alpinist, rock climber, slackline walker, BASE jumper and aerialist, is breaking such new ground in the mountain scene that Alpinist Film Festival organizer Christian Beckwith labeled him a “climbing provocateur.” In Jackson to attend that gathering last weekend, Potter said in an interview that he and Davis would end their relationship with the Ventura, Calif., firm, owned by Jackson Hole homeowners Yvon and Malinda Chouinard.
“Patagonia does some really amazing things for the environment that are much more important than my climbing,” Potter said. “Their mission is a really important one and I wouldn’t want to affect that in a negative way.
“My thoughts about being free were too risky for them to back,” Potter said. “The negative effects are too big for them. ... So we went our separate ways.”
Potter’s lanky build, shaggy mane and bold tactics have made him a name as he has racked up speed alpine ascents and solo climbs that astonish. He became the first person to solo both Fitzroy and Cerro Torre in Patagonia, Argentina, and turned heads by walking a rope over dizzying and deadly drops.
Today he is pushing the limits of climbing as he seeks to ascend mountains, jump off them and glide in a suit fitted with fabric “wings” to land with a parachute at the base of his next objective. Yet as he sought the freedom of the hills with his envelope-pushing feats, Potter ran into conflict with conservationists, and a large part of his climbing community, with his ascent of Delicate Arch.
Park officials, who thought climbing on arches already was prohibited, imposed new restrictions on climbing, while climbers attacked Potter in Internet forums. They and conservationists even accused him of damaging the fragile feature after a photographer shot pictures of grooves thought to have been caused by the dragging of a rope across Delicate’s sandstone face.
And while he has apologized for his ascent, Potter wonders whether there still is freedom in the hills, or whether our remote places are so regulated one can no longer go there, as John Muir once did, to find one’s soul.
Raised in New Hampshire as the son of an Army soldier and U.N. liaison, Potter, 34, told a film festival audience he grew up as a “misfit kid.” He played in the woods, a rebel hunting and fishing. His first climbing was on Joe English cliff.
“My parents forbid me to go there,” he said. “You had to break in.”
Climbing without ropes on routes that are traditionally safeguarded with mountaineering hardware, he and his buddies had their first brush with death. “No one taught us rules,” Potter said.
Childhood dreams of flying may have played a role in his quests, Potter said. Ultimately, it was in nature and on the cliffs that he found solace.
“I had my problems with attention in school,” Potter said. “It didn’t happen with climbing.
“The main thing that’s drawn me in is the heightened awareness that danger brings, that beauty brings,” he said. “That seems to bring out the extra power in me – when I’m really alert.”
“The mountains for me are about chasing after freedom and following impulses,” he said. “I’m not for rules, taking away freedom.”
Part of his relationship with the mountains are efforts to walk ropes, known among climbers as slacklines, strung between rock towers and walls. He also is a BASE jumper – one who leaps off buildings, antennae, spans and earth features – with a parachute. But BASE jumping is illegal in national parks, and slacklining is under fire after his walk between The Gossips, sandstone towers in Arches.
Potter argues that his BASE jumping and slackline walking do not harm the environment. Prohibitions against them “are bringing us farther away from our spirit,” he said.
Such thinking led him to the ascent of Delicate Arch, the landmark on Utah license plates and an image engraved on the back of medals awarded at the Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City. Potter climbed the roughly 60-foot-tall formation of Entrada sandstone last spring without a belay rope, a feat publicized with photographs and a video.
The climb won him more attention than he bargained for, and almost all of it negative. While he appears to have slipped through a loophole in national park regulations, critics were eager to point to grooves worn in the sensitive feature and blame them on Potter’s practice rope, or one employed by a cameraman. Moreover, the unwritten rule among climbers in Moab, Utah, Potter’s home along with Yosemite Valley, Calif., was to avoid confrontation with officialdom.
Accusation of egotism
“There are rules you know you’re not supposed to break – they’re not necessarily written,” said Sam Lightner, a Jackson Hole and Moab resident, climber and a board member of the national climbing advocacy group the Access Fund. “All climbers know we got the towers, everybody else got the arches.”
Wilson resident and Access Fund founder Armando Menocal said Potter was thoughtless.
“He let his ego get ahead of the overall interest of the climbing community,” Menocal said.
Reaction from the public and the Park Service to Potter’s climb was intense and immediate. Among the letters that flooded acting chief ranger Paul Cowan’s desk was one from U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah calling for action, Lightner said.
“We realized our climbing guidelines needed to be clarified last year,” park Superintendent Laura Joss said in a telephone interview from Arches on Monday. The result was a restating of what the park thought had been a ban on climbing named arches, plus a prohibition against the placing of new fixed climbing anchors. And by the way, no more slacklining either, the park said.
Joss would not elaborate on Potter’s climb.
“The incident is still under investigation,” she said.
Arches is now soliciting public comments on how to address climbing and what regulations to adopt permanently. Interim prohibitions have Lightner, Menocal and their ilk perturbed, and they blame Potter.
“He denied all other climbers the opportunity to put up routes on towers in what is probably the largest, last undeveloped area,” Menocal said. If Potter had done his climb without fanfare, “I believe it probably would have made a difference with the Park Service,” he said.
Lightner agreed. “Everybody understood you don’t rub the public’s face in climbing,” he said.
Potter took too long to apologize, Lightner said.
“He didn’t seem to care. If Dean had come out and said, ‘I screwed up,’ I think this would not have been as bad for us.”
Potter said he didn’t hurt anything, never broke a law. His cameraman used a rope to reach the summit, and Potter admitted to using a monkey fist knot to get a line over the arch. To practice for his unroped ascent, he employed a traction device on the rope. He said he never dragged the line over a part of the arch that would cause wear.
No top-rope involved
“The rock scars are actually from a top-rope, and I never used a top-rope,” Potter said. A recent e-mail from a climbing friend named a now-dead climber, one who once lived in Jackson Hole, as a previous ascensionist of Delicate Arch, Potter said. Perhaps he created the climbing-rope grooves.
“I’ve always respected nature,” Potter said. “People who know me know I would never hurt the rock. If I pounded the rock with a hammer or destroyed a tree ... that would be a mistake.”
“There wasn’t any legal reason for me not to climb it,” Potter said of Delicate Arch. “I didn’t see any moral reason not to climb it. I didn’t hurt it.”
Potter said he would not climb Totem Pole, the spire in Monument Valley that Navajo imbue with religious significance. Delicate Arch, despite its prominence on Utah license plates, doesn’t have the stature of that sacred Arizona tower, he said.
“I didn’t see a reason why it’s wrong, why we shouldn’t mesh with nature,” Potter said.
He didn’t expect the reaction he got, either.
“I thought values like freedom and being one with nature were such a common thread, it blew me away that other people found higher importance elsewhere,” he said. “It was sort of an embarrassing surprise. I think of myself as tuned in. It does make me think twice and try to be open to things out there.”
Potter said that today he is a wiser man: “I have hurt people’s feelings – especially with Delicate Arch. That’s something I didn’t intend.”
The feelings of his partners and climbers are most important, he said, calling the episode “a super learning mistake.”
The outlawing of slacklining, Potter said, he doesn’t comprehend.
“The Park Service never talked to me,” he said. “I really don’t understand that one.”
“I didn’t break any law, didn’t hurt the rock,” Potter said. “Something must have bothered them about filling this unowned space. I’m still baffled. What was wrong there?”
Instead of being able to commune with nature in his own way and pursue his sport to his limits, Potter said, he must travel instead to foreign countries. “The most wild places in our country are becoming the most confined places in terms of freedom,” he said.
In Ventura, Rob Bon Durant, vice president of marketing and communications for Patagonia, said Potter and Davis will cease their association with the company at the end of the fiscal year, May 1.
“Dean and Steph will not remain ambassadors,” he said, calling their departure part of a “natural cycle.”
There are no hard feelings, Bon Durant added. “Everybody’s on great terms,” he said.
Potter said that Davis also losing her position with Patagonia was the biggest blow. “She got dragged in and somehow exiled with me,” he said.
“Yvon and Malinda are really like family to us,” Potter said of the Chouinards. “We really respect them. We hoped to be with Patagonia the rest of our lives.”
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