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BringYourOwnTR!
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 8, 2007 - 10:52am PT
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I feel it's my civic duty to start this thread, and maybe I should do the same on rockclimbing.com.
Too many people out there do not know what they're doing when they come down a sport route. There are WAY too many people that lower off and TR directly off the anchors at the top of sport routes. This is a bad habit that people get into that affects every climber that climbs that route after them.
Here's the problem. When people lower and toprope off the anchors, a lot of friction is put on those anchors. This friction prematurely wears the anchors and causes grooves in the anchors. You get enough people doing this on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis, as seen in areas like Bishop, then you end up with some pretty scary anchors at the top. Unfortunately, there are far too many people that do this, and most of them either don't know they're doing something wrong or simply don't care.
Well, every time this is done to an anchor you're putting every climber that climbs that route after you in danger. Sure it will take a while for the anchor to be worn down enough to actually be dangerous, but at popular areas on popular climbs where this is done several times a week, it doesn't take long.
If you get to the top of a route and discover by surprise that the anchors are seriously warn down and potentially very dangerous, you probably want to leave a biner or rap off something else. That's ideal, but you don't always have that option. If you get to the top and your ONLY way down is off the sketchy anchors, then you just have to roll the dice.
The solution: knowledge is power! Everyone should pass the word and speak up if you see this being done anywhere on any climb anywhere in the world. There is no excuse for not doing it the right way. What is the right way? Glad you asked.
When you get to the top of a route and you want to lower off, USE YOUR OWN GEAR. It doesn't matter what's at the top: chains, bolts, bolts w/rings, quick-links, closed or open shuts. Usually when you get to the top, your going to clip anyway right? Well, just clip one of your draws into one anchor and it doesn't take much effort to clip another draw into the other. Then, lower off YOUR GEAR, or rappel off if no one else in your party is going to climb it. The last person climbing should ALWAYS RAPPEL THE ROUTE...PERIOD! The most friction and wear on the anchors is seen when lowering someone. The less this is done, the longer and safer those anchors will be. Yes, all anchors get worn over time. But, this is unnecessary wear that can easily be prevented and possibly save someone's life.
Rappelling is part of climbing, and the quicker you get comfortable with it, the better and safer you will be with it. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE has to know how to rap. You can still take newbie out and put them on a TR and lower them...ON YOUR GEAR. Just make sure the last person climbing can clean the TR and rap off.
Another point...I think that the quick-link anchors and open shuts make it much to easy for people to contribute to this growing problem. When replacing, or establishing, anchors I propose a different solution. Put up something that makes it more difficult for someone to TR or lower off the anchors; any solution that does not allow the climber to quickly put the rope through the top w/o clipping a draw/runner (i.e. bolts, bolts w/rings, chains, webbing w/rap rings, closed shuts).
If people learn to climb with this bad habit and no one corrects them, then they take that bad habit with them to other areas and spread the problem to craigs that may have never had this issue in the first place. We shouldn't have to wait for someone to get seriously injured or killed for people to get the point.
Don't be lazy, bring your own TR.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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DAMN YOU, ANCHOR GROVES!
edit (sorry man, I know what you mean)
edit edit (what the f*#k are cold shunts?)
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Bad habbits are learned from hobbits.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Please, please, go back to rockcretins.com.
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BringYourOwnTR!
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2007 - 11:34am PT
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I was hoping to make a point rather then have my post run through the SuperTopo forum spell checker. Oh well, it's fixed now.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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"I think that the quick-link anchors and open shunts"
I thought you fixed this.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Dingus -- that's pretty much exactly how I like to place anchors as well.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I can see posting this on rc.com, but here???? Do you really think there is a single person here who doesn't understand the concept you lectured on?
And when you post it on rc.com, be prepared for ridicule as well. You could very easily reframe your topic, to be informative and educational instead of coming off as an obnoxious know-it-all, like you are the only one in the world who has this knowledge....
Suggestion: Rewrite your post as if you are submitting to a "Basics of Climbing" article to be published in that yearly Rock & Ice "How To" issue. Imagine that your piece is going to be only one part in the whole. Others will be writing on the other sections - knots, rope care, and stuff like that.
Then put it in the Begin00bers forum. You might actually find an appreciative audience and....though I doubt it....you might actually teach someone something.
It's been my experience that the people who TR off anchors are quite aware that they're doing what isn't the right thing.
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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You can't change the world......it is what it is....
When climbing with a beginner I often lead and set a top rope through the fixed anchors. They climb it once and lower and we then pull the rope and move on to the next climb. This is the fastest way to do it! Otherwise I need to climb the thing AGAIN, clean and rap OR I am forcing the beginner to anchor himself, UNTIE! and rap? F*#k That....
Not worth the risk..
Yes major TR sessions directly through the anchor is bogus and if I have to I will climb it twice in this case.
You still have to pull 200 feet of rope through the metal, no matter what!! This wears the anchors more than anything.
You really need to stop being the climbing police....you sound like a real f*#kwad..
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, what do you expect Happi? Most people are buttholes and most climbers are people. lol
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I tend to skip all the bright doodahs and just use two bare, camo'd, heavy Metolius Rap hangers you can rap straight off of no problem. Probably is a better as an rc.com topic...
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andanother
climber
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Thanks for that well written and ever-so-informative post. If you get a chance could you show us how to tie a figure eight knot? It’s safe to assume that no one here has climbed before, and I once read in a book that the figure eight is what “real climbers” use. Oh, and maybe you could explain why it is important to use “climbing” ropes instead of the rope I bought at the hardware store.
Did you know you’re supposed to “double back” your harness? I bet no one here even knows what that is! LOL! RFLMAO!
Ps. I'm being sarcastic.
Most people probably figured that out, but judging by your posts it's pretty obvious you're an idiot. So I just thought I would spell it out for you.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Dear BringYourOwnChipOnYourShoulder,
I agree, there really are unneccessary posts on supertopo. Oh wait, what was your point?
Dude - people who don't care, don't care, and people who don't know, sure aren't going to be reading your post. Anyway, what people *really* should be doing is following the prevailing ethic at the crag they're at. For example, at Rumney, my local sportage spot, the ethic is for the last person in the party to lower off the cold-shuts. All other topropers TR on their own gear, but the last party does not rappel. There are good reasons for this, but that's beyond the scope of this post.
Point is - if you want to reach the people at your crag, talk to the people at your crag - in person! If you want to put your ethics onto other crags, shut yer pie-hole! ;)
GO
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Dingus, where is coyote crack? i don't recognize any of the formations you mentioned.
James
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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courtright --cough, cough--
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Hey Ding(bat)us, anyone ever steal your chains and quick links?
Some climbers seem to feel that anything not welded together is theirs for the taking.
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the chemist
climber
Palo Alto, CA
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Nope. Not Courtright. SPH. If you don't know, you batter ask somebody... I mean, ask Munge.
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BringYourOwnTR!
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
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OK, I get it…I’m the A-Hole. I wasn’t trying to make others look stupid (or myself for that matter), but as someone else said “It is what it is”. I was trying to make a point and make climbing safer for all of us, not piss people off. I will still support and donate to the anchor replacement fund in Bishop, but obviously I don’t agree with the use of quick-links.
Apparently I came across as a guy with a chip on my shoulder and a know-it-all. That was not my intent. Apparently not everyone agrees with me, so I guess I’ll just keep my mouth shut and deal with it. C#m se, c#m sa.
Be safe and get vertical.
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couchmaster
climber
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Great pics Dingus.
First: I'd rap off of that all day long. BUT, I know the Euros like that inline jig, but it always seems to me, that you are now looking at depending on trusting your life to a single chain link to hold up and not fail (I see you have what appears to be the 3/8 dia which tests to 3000 lbs some of the pups in this area use steel 1/4 chain to save money which only tests to @ 1300 lbs before it starts to rust and weaken!! )
Furthermore as the 3/8 wedge anchors test to 4000 lbs, and having 2 separate chains seems to me to be more redundant (thus safer), it seems like you are not fully utilizing the strength of the wedge anchors. 2 chains = 6000 lbs.
Furthermore, around here the rock is basalt, not your lovely and solid granite, and we commonly see fracture planes on the vertical (which can lead to some great splitter cracks here and there), and placing the 2nd bolt to the side seems to me to minimise the potential to have a rock split down the middle (and thus make for a stronger anchor).
That's my thoughts. Let the flames begin.
ps BringYourOwnTR!, it's always nice to hear it again, don't be bothered. Some folks may not have ever heard those thoughts. Don't be afraid to remind folks (in a nice way) and speak up when you see people lowering off. I rarely see it, but sometimes you show up at an anchor and see the effects:-0
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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Perhaps the original post could have taken a friendlier tone (as could many of the replies!), but I must agree with the basic message. If we all lowered and T/R'd off our own draws and then rappelled and pulled and unweighted rope through the fixed anchors, these anchors would last years longer. The inconvenience and risk(?) seem a small price for this result.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Gee couchmeister, that's interesting stuff. I guess you could use two quick links with one on each chain and have something nice, with the added extra bearing surface and greater radius for your rope to run over.
They do sell SS QL and home depot has some pretty nice plated chain that is 3/8 and resists rust pretty well.
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Bovine
Social climber
flatlands
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Couchmaster,
He does have (2) points of connection. (1) at the end of the chain, previously described as a quicklink, then there are (2) quicklinks on the lower bolt w/o the chain (at equal height to the end of the quicklink on the chain thus providing the second point of attachment).
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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I would hope most of us are secure enough about our experience and knowledge not to have to feel insulted by "bringyourownTR". He means well, and makes an important point how incomplete and incorrect knowledge is spread throughout the climbing community. It drives me nuts to hear people yell off belay when they clip anchors to thread them, then a few minutes later want to be back on belay to lower, and apparantly a few deaths have occured through such miscommunication. As I often sport climb with less experienced friends, my favorite rig is chains with lowering links large enough so I can thread the rope, but still run the belay/lower through draws. Only the last climber actually lowers off the chains when the draws are removed.
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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After the FA of Touchstone the rangers objected to the rap slings visible. Soon I came up with the idea of rigging chains at the stations which blended in. After similar arrangements in Snow Canyon the idea seems to have caught on.
The trouble is people are just too damn stupid to use them properly.
They arrive and clip right into the rap links, then load them up with their crap, and then, when they decide to rap these Einsteins end up leaving bright rap slings threaded into the chains and anchors.
I'd like to see these bozos start getting tickets for littering.
Its totally unnecessary if people just used their brains.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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That "over and under" anchor system is ok if it is at the top of a one pitch affair, but if more than one climber needs to be stationed at the anchor it is a lot nicer to have the bolts laid out horizontally - all other factors allowing.
On topic, when I go sport climbing I see most people using their own draws at the anchor for tr's. Usualy just the last one up will lower. And didn't some Bishop local do some tests a few years ago and find that when pulled on with a climbing rope, and open shut with a groove in it from rope wear was actually stronger than a new one because the rope was held in place in the groove and didn't slide along and unroll the shut..?
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WBraun
climber
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Hey
I know that guy with the bosch.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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famous last words
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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COme come mow Ronbo, you don't REALLY expect people to start using their brains, now do you?
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Oh man, judging from the latest post on the "accident in Owens" thread, it looks like my gripe above about saying "off belay" while threading before lowering is the likely cause of this tragedy. I will endeavor to always offer unsolicited advice about clarifying communication when I so often witness it being done badly at the crags.
Say what you mean, mean what you say, be safe
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Considering that we all started as nOObs our numbers are quite remarkable.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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You know I've always been in the habit of discussing with my belayer/partner what one was going to do at the end of the climb (be it lowering off or rapping) BEFORE starting the climb. Communicating. I want to be prepared and know what I'll need to do and what gear I'll need to bring. Of course things can change once the anchor is reached - maybe it's worn, maybe something else is up.
I have a friend who had a habit of saying "off belay" when in reality she wasn't wanting to really be "off belay", but was clipped in to thread the anchor or chains to be lowered. It drove me nuts. I think I finally broke her of that habit.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Yeah Locker, no sh*t!!!
I basically just refused to take her off and then she'd realize what was up.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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"Don't be lazy, bring your own TR."
Do I have to clean up my room too?
Posting this thread on this website maybe wasn't a good idea after all? Learn from chairboy.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Original Poster: Thanks.
I don't think you came across as an A-hole, and that post is definitely needed.
I've seen the worn grooves in the anchors in Owen's Gorge, and realized what caused them. And people should take your advice, if they don't already do it that way.
And I'd guess that there exists more than one lurker on this forum that doesn't post regularly because of the ignorant, extremely short-sighted, elitist way that your post was recieved and responded to.
Thanks for the public service announcement.
-Aaron
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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OK. The original post is correct in its message.
Still damn funny to see something like that here and not on RC though.
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couchmaster
climber
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I'm use to seeing a version of one of these.
Thanks you all for the replies.
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WBraun
climber
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Make sure you buy/get pro rated chains for this type of application. In California they are CHP rated.
Also I've come across chain setups like this and some dufus used tiny quick links to attach them to the bolts.
Giant strong chain with miniature quick links connecting to the bolt hangers, like WTF is that all about?
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Marty Lewis
climber
Bishop, CA
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Did anybody notice that the super-duper anchors in the image both boil down to one welded ring. I don't know how many times I've come across giant expensive anchors that all come down to one point (sometimes a quick link or a rap ring). what's the deal? Anchors should always end in two or more points of attachment. Isn't that a basic concept of climbing anchors-if one fails you still live?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Have you climbed in Europe, Marty? Giant glue-in anchors all coming down to one worn ring. Same folks think that any mechanical bolt is sketchy and only glue-ins are "good bolts." I really don't get it either.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Not so hard to fathom actually.
These are the folks that brought you russian roulette.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Have you climbed in Europe, Marty? Giant glue-in anchors all coming down to one worn ring. Same folks think that any mechanical bolt is sketchy and only glue-ins are "good bolts." I really don't get it either.
I once came to a belay in Les Calanqes (France) where I could, no joke, have clipped perhaps a dozen bolts, of vintages ranging back perhaps 40 years. I sure wish I'd had my camera with me.
GO
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