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fer calvo
Ice climber
SAN ROQUE DEL ACEBAL - LLANES
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 25, 2019 - 03:56am PT
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Hi Community, I know there are other topics about , but after read them i don´t find an answer to this queation: This Zero hammer with a RED fiber glass shaft Which year is from? Is a rebuilt tool?
I know there are some good experts on this tipe of axe around here !Hope it´s uploaded right and it´s the right forum for this.
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fer calvo
Ice climber
SAN ROQUE DEL ACEBAL - LLANES
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2019 - 04:00am PT
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Fiberglass shaft... All the old photos of similar ones where blue shafts...
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 25, 2019 - 09:45am PT
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fer calvo! Thanks for sharing that North Wall Hammer. I have not seen one with a red shaft.
Per my thread:
CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2906806&msg=2916311#msg2916311
The metal part dates to 1979 - 80, since it was made by Camp/ Interalp in Italy.
The MODEL ZERO Ice Axe & North Wall Hammer, with 55 Cm. laminated bamboo shafts, were introduced in the Chouinard Great Pacific Iron Works 1976 catalog. Wood shafts were discontinued on Chouinard axes in early 1979 in favor of synthetic blue shafts.
By the 1980 catalog, the classic Piolet head design is also gone, replaced by an entirely American-made axe with an ugly welded head, that lacked aesthetics, but worked just fine.
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fer calvo
Ice climber
SAN ROQUE DEL ACEBAL - LLANES
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2019 - 12:09pm PT
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Thanks so much Fritz ! If it's out of your knowledge must be or a test one or something similar.... the strange thing is that has use marks...
I ll keep investigating if i get to know something i'll post it!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 25, 2019 - 12:17pm PT
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The spike on the bottom I've seen on tools from the UK. These tools had a pretty solid rubber grip too.
Does it look like there was a grip that was removed?
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Jan 25, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
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I remember seeing one of those for sale in a shop in Chamonix in the early eighties.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 25, 2019 - 04:19pm PT
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Good eye, Brian!
Didn't the Lowe Big Bird have a ferrule/spike arrangement similar to that?
If it were fitted with a proper Chouinard ferrule and spike, I would have to think this would be highly collectible.
It does appear to be a retrofit. Either way, it is fairly attractive as a rarity.
Excited to learn more about it!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 25, 2019 - 04:24pm PT
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Didn't the Lowe Big Bird have a ferrule/spike arrangement similar to that?
Mine does.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 25, 2019 - 04:45pm PT
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Here's a pretty good match.
Two tools, Interalp-Camp Chouinard ZERO & Mountain Technology.
We are interested in the tool on the left:
But the match is not exact. The crown of the blue shaft where it meets the head seems to lack the steel cap ring – and the spike lacks a hole, and the ferrule seems to be of different material.
Also, the attachment pin up near the top is a bit different, w/ no head.
Perhaps the red one, as Brian suggested, lacks the rubber shaft material which would reveal the attachment/interface of the upper lip of the ferrule more clearly?
Still – very close.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Interalp-Ice-Axe-Mtn-Technology-Hammer/283346700533?hash=item41f8c788f5:g:zuIAAOSwPWtcRN30:rk:2:pf:0
Axe has Chouinard zero blade made in Premana Italy
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 25, 2019 - 05:32pm PT
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So not in the same realm beyond being Italian ice tools of a certain age.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 25, 2019 - 05:38pm PT
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Looks like Interalp-Camp did some of the production for the Lowe Big Birds, and the spikes are similar to the red ZERO.
What's different about those Big Bird designs is that the shaft has a taper which continues at the ferrule. Pretty slick!
The spikes themselves are similar to those of the red ZERO, with those graduated ridges.
You can't see the ridges on the spikes very well in these pictures, but they are there:
There were LOWE variations:
Integrated ferrule-spike on a later model, bent shaft LOWE:
This one from Camp, with the tapered shaft similar to what they did for LOWE, has a different grooved spike, very similar to the spikes of the Charlet Moser Tools in my shed:
Charlet Spikes:
..................................
I think we have a pretty good bead on this red ZERO as an Interalp/Camp/Premana creation.
I'd contact Dane Burns at Cold Thistle. Could be he's an authority on all things Premana?
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 26, 2019 - 08:04am PT
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I am not able to see the spike at the end of the shaft clearly, but below you see a Simond Fennec
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Jan 26, 2019 - 11:18am PT
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Another indication that it might not be the original shaft is the shiny small piece of metal around the top of the shaft between the head and the shaft. I don't remember the Chouinard fiberglass shafted axes having one of those.
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fer calvo
Ice climber
SAN ROQUE DEL ACEBAL - LLANES
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2019 - 11:44am PT
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Sorry for the delay, and thanks to everyone! Here i made a close one to the spike beside a hummingbird made by the Premana people too at CAMP ( they produced for Lowe, interalp and salewa too..)
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fer calvo
Ice climber
SAN ROQUE DEL ACEBAL - LLANES
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2019 - 11:49am PT
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A closer to the union head-shaft !
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 26, 2019 - 11:51am PT
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Interesting...on the red shaft, I've never seen either a Lowe tool or a Chouinard from Camp that has an open hole where the spring pin is (below the head). Most must have a cap of sorts.
Here's a couple pics of one from the back of the closet (ha ha):
The head on the red shaft tool seems to be an exact match, down to the marks and the number of teeth, to the pic I posted above.
Note the spike on the bottom of my tool has a small hole in it. Looks like the red shaft tool doesn't? Otherwise, they're very nearly the same.
Makes me wonder if someone replaced the shaft on a blue shaft hammer with the red, fiberglass model. Can you tell (probably by weight) if the red shaft tool is glass over aluminum?
Fun stuff!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 26, 2019 - 12:12pm PT
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Actually Brian,
Look again: the red shaft tool does have a hole in the spike.
It's just oriented 90° from where yours is.
I missed that on the first photograph, but on the second close-up photograph of the spike on the red shaft, you can see it.
And your blue shafted tool does have that shiny cap steel ring where the shaft meets the head, just like on the red shaft.
I think Bruce is correct, that you won't see that on a full Chouinard version.
At this point the most standout variances of the red axe from the other Interalp/Camp axes are that:
1) the attachment pin up near the top of the shaft is lacking a round head.
2) the fact that the shaft has no rubber sleeve.
Yes, this is fun.
I'm still putting my money on Dane Burns of Cold Thistle to sort us out on this oddity.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 26, 2019 - 12:27pm PT
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Here's what a stock Chouinard blue shafted tool looks like.
There are quite a few deviations in construction details to be seen:
The only constant is the Premana head.
We can't even be sure, as you noted Brian, whether the shaft material is the same construct of fiberglass over aluminum tubing or whatever.
I'm guessing that the Chouinard shaft, which isn't even the same shade of blue, is a completely different construct than the Interalp/Camp models.
Weren't those Chouinard shafts some kind of solid fiberglass layup, or was it done over tubing?
Pretty sure that's been discussed and pinpointed.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Jan 26, 2019 - 02:06pm PT
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Does the spike screw out like the Simond ones (or mine at least) does/did?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 26, 2019 - 04:06pm PT
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I sold a fiberglass Chouinard North Wall hammer very similar to the one Brian posts in Oct. 2018 on EBay.
I bought it from a Brit. It differs from the U.S. Chouinard catalog description in having the rubber piece marked Interalp over the shaft, being 50 cm. instead of the U.S. 55 cm., & having a different spike.
Based on buying a couple other Chouinard axe variations from Brits in the last few years, it appears they were getting product marked Chouinard with slight variations from product sold in the U.S.
Possibly? After Chouinard switched to made in USA axes & Zeros in 1980, Interalp kept selling their Italian-made Chouinard product in Europe? An early 1980's Interalp ad or catalog might shed some light on my speculation??
Here's some photos of the Zero I sold on EBay
I own another, somewhat different, fiberglass Chouinard North Wall hammer, but its at home & I'm not. I'll see if I can talk Heidi into sending me some photos of it.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Jan 27, 2019 - 01:34am PT
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Chouinard had some sort of licensing agreement with Camp(Interalp) in Italy for the production of his tools. My guess is that the ones we are seeing here were also made by Camp for sale in Europe.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 27, 2019 - 06:58am PT
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Gnome. I had a Cassin Anteres that I usually paired with a Simond Chackal. they were basicly the same tool.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 27, 2019 - 06:59am PT
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this is my 1985? Chiounard X tool
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 27, 2019 - 09:45am PT
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Here's Heidi's photos of my figerglass, made in Italy, 1979 - 80 Vintage Chouinard Zero North Wall hammer with a 55 cm. shaft.
I don't know if the elaborate webbing is original to the piece. I have not seen another Zero with that webbing.
The pick is marked Camp/Interalp on the other side.
The blue-shaft connects directly onto the head, without the metal collar the opening North Wall hammer has, & it shows a rivet on the shaft.
The spike is similar to those on the earlier wood shaft Chouinard axes.
So ------- I consider this tool to be similar to what Chouinard posted in his 1978 - 79 catalog, & in my mind, it is the tool available in the U.S. at that time. I think the similar tools with the rubber piece on the shaft were sold in Europe, perhaps slightly later, after Chouinard started making his axes in the U.S. in 1980.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:09am PT
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I have seen a few other types of things that we both have in common Tradman, I once started a thread about extreme backcountry skizzing controlled falling down ice climably steep gullies although my actual participation in that sort of thing was very limited.
I feel that I need to say that I in noway climbed high standard ice, but I did climb a lot of ice back in the day.I always thought this was a North Wall Axe(x?Also '84-'85) with a custom-made weighted head.
EDIT: Zero-X axe, & '83 - for 1st yr offered. Thank you!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:44am PT
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Who here can describe exactly how those American-made Chouinard blue ax shafts were constructed?
IIRC, there was something novel about them. Are they fiberglass over tubing or are they solid?
And the spikes were similar, but not quite the same on the blue shafted ZERO as what showed up on the wood shafted ZERO:
More Chouinard tools using that shame shaft construction, from later years:
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:48am PT
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The axe was the "Zero-X". The hammer was the "Northwall-X" (I have #12!).
Circa 83-ish.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:55am PT
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The shaft construction, I think, is different on the X-tools versus the classic blue shaft of the older Zero/Northwall.
I recall earlier Zeros and Northwalls were fiberglass over an aluminum tube. The X tools did have an aluminum tube. I crushed a tube on one of these X tools near the head. Still used it without effect.
Edit: fiberglass and carbon tubes. Hmmm. Maybe the ones coming out of Italy were glass over aluminum?
The USA versions seem to be glass over carbon. According to the catalogs from the late 70s.
Edit again...Fritz has posted catalog pics of the different versions. 78/79 vintage seem to be glass over carbon. By 81 they also had an aluminum tube into the mix.
Anyhow...
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 27, 2019 - 12:07pm PT
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Brian! Per your mention:
Fritz has posted catalog pics of the different versions. 78/79 vintage seem to be glass over carbon
Unfortunately, I remember some more-knowledgeable Chouinard axe historian (maybe Dane Burns) mentioning the fiberglass Zero's shown in later Chouinard 1978 - 79 catalogs were spray-painted wood Zeros. Chouinard was rushing Interalp/Camp to change to fiberglass shafts, but they did not yet have a photo for the catalog of the real fiberglass Zeros.
This photo is the one with what might be painted Zeros.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 27, 2019 - 04:58pm PT
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Now we are getting closer!
Yes, Fritz: those are painted shafts just above. The giveaway, besides the shiny gloss of the paint, is there are no pins in the shaft material. Also, the shape of the shafts are more ovoid, consistent with wood shafts, whereas the earliest blue synthetic ones have more complicated cross-sectional contours. Chamfered, if you will.
But now it's coming to me: even though in that catalog excerpt Chouinard says the 1978-1979 models implemented carbon fiber, those synthetic shafts were eventually specified as being Rexilon. Would that be a proprietary way of describing glass over carbon as you said, Brian?
I'm thinking the Rexilon shafts were devoid of aluminum tubing.
The X tools of the 1980s, per Brian's post, had shafts that were of their "revolutionary laminate of aluminum, graphite, and fiberglass."
We still don't know what Rexilon was per se. But in a forum search there are 51 threads where that term is mentioned.
And we haven't identified the composition of those CAMP shafts. Or the red shaft!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 27, 2019 - 05:05pm PT
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I think Rexilon is a wood-ish laminate of sorts. And looks it.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 27, 2019 - 05:19pm PT
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Tar! Thanks for your confirmation of the painted Zero shafts for the 1978 - 79 Chouinard catalog.
Rexilon!
Yes! That term was well discussed here a few years ago. It was a laminated Birch that Chouinard used for Piolet shafts for a few years. Rexilon shafts were a little heavier & somewhat stronger than the standard laminated bamboo.
I own a Chouinard Piolet with a Rexilon shaft & it is also has a very distinctive look. Chouinard &/or Interalp dropped it as a shaft material by the 1978 - 79 catalog.
I strongly doubt Rexilon was used as the inside material on the first fiberglass shafts used by Chouinard, because they would have been noticeably heavier than the laminated bamboo shaft axes, although the fiberglass Zero axe does show a catalog weight 2 oz. greater than the bamboo Zero axe.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 27, 2019 - 05:23pm PT
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Yeah, there's no Rexilon in those blue shafts. The original blue shafts are solid carbon fiber (as far as I can tell by reading the literature.)
The use of that term Rexilon is just me taking us on a wild goose chase.
Say, Fritz:
Speaking to a totally independent issue. Can you please e-mail me?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 27, 2019 - 07:41pm PT
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Why did I give that bamboo Coonyard to that Roossian in a fit of largesse? 😫
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 27, 2019 - 08:05pm PT
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Tar! Email coming your way.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 27, 2019 - 09:01pm PT
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Why did I give that bamboo Coonyard to that Roossian in a fit of largesse? Exactly! A fit of largess ... That's the only possible explanation. Hopefully he returned the favor with some sort of titanium bauble?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:06pm PT
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An old climbing buddy of mine is retiring to his 20 acre ranchette near McCall.
On my first visit there, three years back, I noticed two ice axes with their picks solidly planted in an outside wood-beam, by his front door.
Upon inquiry, he proudly explained they were both his old Chouinard bamboo-shaft piolets.
I mentioned the two of them were likely worth around $300.00 each & I was impressed with him leaving them outside.
The next time I visited, they were displayed inside.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 27, 2019 - 10:11pm PT
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Tar, I was hoping more for an introduction to a titanium babe.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 28, 2019 - 08:17am PT
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Not that it helps solve the mystery of the OP,
But, Fritz, here is Dane Burns speaking to the painted ZERO shafts, Interalp, & Rexilon:
The '78 catalog shows painted bamboo Zeros as carbon fiber and the first carbon fiber piolets with Interalp hand forged heads.
Europe got hickory, rexilon and bamboo Chouinard tools and a big dump of hickory and bamboo non Chouinard marked piolets in the end. The Chouinard-Frost logo changed to Chouinard sometime between '76 and before '78. Long before '78 if the cataog typical publish date and when the gear was available was any indication. Catalogs were always months if not years behind current production and availability.
No laminated ash or hickory that I know or seen anyone document beyond speculation. Rexilon is not a synthetic but a simple wood laminate. Grivel also used Rexilon for some of their early technical axes from the same time frame, mid '70s. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1191047&msg=1193014#msg1193014
...
Again, Dane Burns would probably solve the OP question in 7 seconds flat!
He recently put up some of his ice ax collection for sale. Not being in the market, I didn't venture to ask why.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806&msg=3138549#msg3138549
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 28, 2019 - 02:36pm PT
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Reilly. that completely explains the loss of your ice ax. Thinking with the wrong head again....
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Apr 13, 2019 - 10:08pm PT
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"probably solve the OP question in 7 seconds flat!"
Sorry Roy, I'm late to the party as usual. I'd guess that the red shafted tool is a rebuild. But it is only a guess. Other thought is it might be a very early effort at a fiber glass shaft. As you guys already noted I think the spike is the key to the real answer. I know that spike just can't place it at the moment. (may be later Camp?) Never seen that shaft/spike on a Camp/Interalp/Chouinard tool. I do have a near new blue fiber glass Camp "Zero" hammer like Fitz's/Tar's (and the other 3 early blue shaft/rubber sleeve shown) sitting here. Same head as the red one but no Chouinard roll mark. But clearly a Zero hammer. Mine does have the thick black rubber sleeve removed. Shaft is hollow. So just guessing on the red one myself.
I gave much of my ice climbing collection to Gary Neptune. He was working on a new display for some of it. I likely buried him in useless gear :) Been selling the best of it, as the $1400 piolet yesterday attests.
Moved back to Idaho, not far from Fritz, and raising horses again. House is twice as big but my office 1/2 as small ;-) Something had to go. Hope others get to enjoy my collection as much as I did. Any one interested in a nice sized mountaineering library?
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Apr 13, 2019 - 10:18pm PT
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Hey Reilly!
Why did I give that bamboo Coonyard to that Roossian in a fit of largesse? 😫
Until recently I'd forgotten I gave one of my last Zero axes to a kid for his 21st birthday. Even then (1980) I knew I'd had one too many beers. Then yesterday a buddy reminded me I traded a new Zero hammer and cash for a Barracuda bitd.
I climbed a lot of ice with a Zero and a Chacal. Loved that pair. Chacal and Barracuda I liked even more.
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RDB
Social climber
Great Basin
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Apr 13, 2019 - 10:32pm PT
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Sorry, one more answer if I missed the question.
Rexilon..laminated wood (hickory) and solid. Weight is just a bit heavier than bamboo. Ash was lighter generally. But that depended o nthe quality of the ash. American hickory (very early axes) was slightly heavier as well.
Early fiberglass/carbon fiber versions? At least 3 versions shown in this thread and all hollow. Some (Camp) had aluminum liners (made them heavier). Chouinard's later version is all glass and feels more like a wood axe in hand. Vibration in the shaft was terrible on the ice by comparison how ever.
Aluminum was wrapped with glass/carbon to kill the vibrations.
Interesting the Chacal was never bothered by that issue....nor are the newest aluminum shafted tools.
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| Messages 1 - 44 of total 44 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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No metal tubing involved in that shaft construct.
Let us know!