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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 11, 2018 - 09:41am PT
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https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2018/09/10/12-year-old-boy-rescued-after-20-foot-fall-while-climbing-flagstaff/1263687002/
A 12-year-old boy was seriously injured Monday when he fell 20 feet while rock climbing with his family in Flagstaff, the Coconino County Sheriff's Office said.
The boy was climbing just after 1 p.m. with his family in an area known as The Pit, near the Canyon Vista Campground. Them he fell, injuring his head and wrist.
The Flagstaff Fire Department the Sheriff's Office and other emergency crews responded to the accident.
The Sheriff's Office determined the boy fell while trying to clip his rope into the third bolt on the ascent. Carabiners — couplings that lock the rope in place — that were attached to two other bolts broke, causing him to fall to the base of the climb that was 20 feet down, the Sheriff's Office said.
After inspecting his carabiners, the Sheriff's Office found they were not rated for climbing.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Sep 11, 2018 - 09:59am PT
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It sounds reasonable to think they were real biners, even for an adult. Good opportunity for a product liability case to get those dangerous things off the market.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:05am PT
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The operative clause: “with his family.”
“Hey, dad, hold my beer!”
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:15am PT
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With the excellent quality of counterfeit goods coming from our Asian producers it always amazes me anyone uses climbing related commodities bought off of Ebay or the like...
Gotta wonder how many fake Putzl biners are out there.... holding the typical 4k falls... until they don't.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:26am PT
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Big difference between key clipping biners at the Home Depot checkout and the real stuff.
How much actual fake gear has been found and what were the technical specs?
Is there a good info source/articles on fake gear?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:32am PT
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My wife has a set of heavy chains for weight training. You hook them to the bar so the higher you lift the heavier the load as the chains come up off the floor.
Anyway, the set came with four carabiners which I mistook for BD ovals until I looked more closely. They are unmarked, have no weight spec, and the metal doesn't look quite right. But at first glance they look exactly like the real thing.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:40am PT
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Somehow he made it to the 3rd bolt of an actual rock climb.
If the least expensive and most basic element of his climbing setup was wrong - I'm very curious what the rest looked like!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2018 - 10:46am PT
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There was a story in one of the mags from a climber who got caught in a storm at he base of a climb. They set up a shelter using slings and biners. The biner off his water bottle made it onto a sling and got used at a belay when they started climbing. Do not even carry that junk to the crags.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:14am PT
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CrowdFund a rack for that kid!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:17am PT
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The BD lookalike I mentioned above is 6 grams lighter than the real thing.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:21am PT
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I've noticed fake biner creep into various products. For example I got those latest rage hammocks for my kids to take to summer camp and they came with non-climbing biners that look almost exactly like those mini-Metolious biners. I throw all them all away for the reason described by John Beck above. I hope the kid heals up alright.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:30am PT
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I think I'll send one of those BD lookalikes to BD. I'll bet they'd be interested in seeing and testing it.
I am really curious what the unfortunate young man was using. And I hope he comes out of this well.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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Darwinism.
Those little fake biners are very useful wall climbing for keeping stuff handy without using up freebies.
Its climbing, not ping pong. If you get stupid you get dead.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:45am PT
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Cease and Desist!
‘reminds me of Disney sending a rep to a friend of mine who then, owned a taqueria. The dude was there to check-out these ‘Disney’ piñatas for sale. Total bullish!t, like their gonna stop that stuff by litigation. Who knows where they were made (in Mexico).
My friend was wise and stated, “No, these aren’t Disney piñatas...they’re Disney look-a-likes; Minny Mouse look-a-like, Donald Duck look-a-like...”
That was the end of that...
 ec
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
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Kris, could you post a photo of the fake beside a real BD ‘biner ?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
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Now tell us which is ‘real’, please.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 11, 2018 - 12:16pm PT
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Another reason not to buy Black Diamond.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 11, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
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Well I guess Peter is no longer at the helm but I hold the corporate entity still accountable for his perfidy.
Let him deny it, I still have the tape.
While in the midst of a political campaign against the state of Utah I informed Peter of the hate crimes committed by one of his dealers (and his family). He lied to me to keep me from making noise at a very inopportune time for him.
Liars are the worst kind off A-holes.
I used to be one of their best customers but I haven't bought a piece of BD gear since. I even insisted that none be used in the video I made with jello.
If somebody is cloning their gear ,..... kharma is a bitch.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
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Kris, looks more like an earlier version of a BD oval or an Omega (stock left round, instead of stamped flat). Nonetheless, it looks like the ‘real’ thing; only pot metal.
ec
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2018 - 03:57pm PT
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The "fake" in the picture could be stronger than the BD biner. You don't know w/o testing, that's the difference. I would take either, really, if strength mattered, over one of those featherweight super certified "holds the minimum in the lab" biners.
Good thing the kid fell early rather than later. There was a kid the same age, climbing with adults as well, in Germany(?) a few years back, someone connected all his draws together with the rubber string keeper - died on impact from near the top.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Sep 11, 2018 - 04:24pm PT
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Glad he only made it to the third bolt.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 11, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
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Darwinism.
Those little fake biners are very useful wall climbing for keeping stuff handy without using up freebies.
Its climbing, not ping pong. If you get stupid you get dead.
I once had a nut tool on a mini biner. It was smaller, but otherwise looked like the real thing. Somehow it ended up on a sling that I clipped the rope to and my partner discovered.
Since people are quit capable of doing stupid things, it pays to stack the odds in your favor. Initially I switched to a plastic "key ring" biner that didn't look like anything like the real thing. Eventually I decided to not carry a nut tool.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
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The "fake" in the picture could be stronger than the BD biner.
I doubt it. At 6 grams lighter for the same size, it's not made out of the same material. As I recall the authentic 'biner is made from 6061-T6 aluminum? The lighter one cannot be...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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I keep my nut tool on a tied cord racked with a climbing biner. Basically another draw.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
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JB, pretty sure neither he or his parents will be seeing this, not that even I don’t wish him well.
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
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CrowdFund a rack for that kid!
And a helmet...
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
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JLP posted: There was a kid the same age, climbing with adults as well, in Germany(?) a few years back, someone connected all his draws together with the rubber string keeper - died on impact from near the top. It was Tito Traversa, climbing in southeastern France - 2013. He fell around 50 feet to the ground and died 3 days later. He'd climbed 5.14 at age 10.
Not all the quickdraws were wrong - but the ones that were right were placed too low to catch the fall.
Multiple court cases ensued. In May of this year his instructor was sentenced to 2 years in prison.
Here's a short Wiki article about the accident and its aftermath.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
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I Never have any fake chalk bag biners. I refuse to carry anything that can't be used for real situations. even my chalk bag cord in 6mm perlon that can be used in an emergency. Bummer about the kid!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
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Oh look: the trolls showed up. Aren't they cute?
I suppose I should be more empathetic since they are actually pitiful cowards who hide behind a screen living lives that could be better.
Who turned this kid loose on a climb with BS gear?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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Well, at least after 5 years I remembered the main points - rubber keepers, fell from very high on route.
Point here is even with perfect and certified equipment and elite company - there’s still more to it.
When I’m climbing with kids - I’m checking everything all the time - like everything - I find it tiring - worst nightmare.
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Sep 11, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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Come on...let's give this kid a break. How many on this forum are lucky to be alive today because we had no idea what we were doing when we first started? He was hurt...and my guess is that he's probably not going to make that same mistake again.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2018 - 06:17pm PT
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my guess is that he's probably not going to make that same mistake
I am willing to bet he will not want to lead ever again.
I taught my son how to light the propane grill when he was 12. First time I sent him outside to the light it on his own I hear the woosh of gas flashing off. I knew what happened, I forgot to stress that you do not keep the gas on too long without lighting it. When he came in the house I could smell the singed hair. He is 15 and refuses to light a gas grill.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 06:19pm PT
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Age 12 is too young for brow liner...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Sep 11, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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He didn't get the memo -- "The leader must not fall".
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Sep 11, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
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so how does one of these fake 'biners end up on a draw? i could maybe see if someone took one off to hold shoes etc and then put a different one back on but the reports said multiple 'biners not rated for climbing.
Or, was he clipping bolt to biner to rope with no dogbone in between?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 08:01pm PT
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This is a terrible story.
It seems the accident was partially due to enthusiasm about climbing outrunning necessary knowledge about the required equipment.
It is horrific that the climber didn't know the difference between weak "Fake-O" carabiners, and the real thing. Fake carabiners are ubiquitous because they are so useful for non-climbing purposes. Ironically, many of them are labeled, "Not For Climbing".
Colorful diamond-braided polypropylene ropes, that are commonly sold in hardware stores, look amazingly similar to the best climbing ropes available. Only an expert can discern the difference. But, it is not experts who are going to confuse them with climbing ropes.
Everyone, here, has a duty and obligation to share knowledge about climbing safety, whenever possible. Subtle differences can mean the difference between life and death.
This sport is not like surfing, where the Hotshots know to walk out along a hidden reef, and jump off behind the waves, and then laugh as some clueless doofus tries to paddle directly out through a bone-crushing shorebreak from the sand, and then gives up and goes away.
More waves for me, bro.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 08:09pm PT
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This sport is not like surfing, where the Hotshots can walk out along a hidden reef, and jump off behind the waves, and then laugh as some doofus tries to paddle directly out through a bone-crushing shorebreak from the sand.
but it IS!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
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I don't think the territorialism of surfing extends to climbing. It may be true that, sometimes, a Secret Topo might protect a particularly juicy route. But a selfishly callous disregard for others, especially newcomers, does not commonly exist.
I once had to leave my high-$$$$ camera at home, when going to watch my friends surf at a particular spot. I was warned that the windows of my car would be broken out. A Secret Spot is the Holy Grail for some surfers.
In climbing, area protectionism usually manifests itself in restricting unnecessary drilling of bolts, chipping holds, or otherwise degrading the experience for those who would come later.
The similitude between climbing and surfing is not 100%.
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 11, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
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Years ago, I used to have this gig ‘certifying’ SF Bay Area Council parents to be able to safely take their troops out to the crags and top rope and rappel. One time, during one of the 1st sessions outside, we all incredulously observed a man and two sons on an adjacent crag.
The guy was showing his kids ‘how to’ as if he had learned from Spencer Tracy (The Mountain). ‘No pitons, just crazy ropework with no anchors (they just had a rope, harnesses and a locker to tie into (ahem); standing on top belaying, with lots of unintended slack for the climber. We were waiting for a cratering kid (or both) as dad sat on his ass directing. I tried to ‘nicely’ intervene; even told them what our group was there for. The dad was having none of it; I had breached his pride zone in front of his kids. Funny, though, the oldest son was a senior patrol leader of a troop in the council and he was interested and sometime later enlisted in the course and got certified. The kid thanked me as well. His dad never would attend and would never talk to me.
That sh!t was so crazy to witness. It was like the dad thought it was like teaching them tennis or something; totally unaware of their peril. Darwinism in action.
ec
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 11, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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Brennan...No harshing on the mammoth homeys , eh...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
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I taught my son how to light the propane grill when he was 12. First time I sent him outside to the light it on his own I hear the woosh of gas flashing off. I knew what happened, I forgot to stress that you do not keep the gas on too long without lighting it. When he came in the house I could smell the singed hair. He is 15 and refuses to light a gas grill.
Jon, if your kid had a uni-brow, this episode may have been liberating.
JC
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 09:32pm PT
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BACK ON TOPIC:
Trademarks serve to protect consumers from inferior goods.
A trademark ensures that a particular product has been produced by a particular, specific, and non-confusable source of production.
If a product from Producer-A is acceptable, valid, and trustworthy, a trademark ensures that consumers will not be confused, as by an inferior product by Producer-B.
This is not rocket science.
The trademark system is a wonderful system to ensure that consumers are presented with additional information to ensure that they make informed decisions when making their purchasing decisions.
An unmarked carabiner, by definition, is outside the realm of name-brand climbing gear.
I, but for the grace of Royal Robbins' two Rockcraft books, may not have known how to survive as a rockclimber. Robbins discussed inferior carabiners, those that were only suitable for hauling dunnage.
Royal Robbins was not just the best at what he did.
Royal Robbins informed others, so that they could be the best at what they were doing.
If Royal Robbins' books, Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft, had been available to the persons involved in this accident, I think that the accident might not have occurred.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:49pm PT
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Are we really this callous a crowd? As a climber from back in the dark ages, we had a lot of self-taught technique. The sink-or-swim learning was great training, provided you survived. I'm glad our fledgling leader was merely injured, but I don't know the extent of those injuries. As Bob Harrington reminds us (indirectly), he hit his head. That could result in permanent brain injury.
I would like to know how this kid was equipped with not-for-climbing 'biners (and, maybe, other unsuitable gear). The snap-links* I see at Home Despot and sLowe's clearly state they are not for climbing.
As for gear I take on my own climbs, I'm like tradmanclimbs. I try to have everything usable for climbing or, rather often, retreating.
John
*I use the term "snap link" intentionally, keeping in mind Tom Patey's definition, viz. "a link that snaps."
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 11, 2018 - 10:50pm PT
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The Pit is a steep crag. Awesome, juggy limestone, some of it wildly overhanging. I used to love climbing there when I lived in AZ. Hopefully the kid heals up and can get back on the horse. It is a great place to climb.
Thats fvcked up, those pictures ksolem posted with the fake biners.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:06pm PT
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I would like to know how this kid was equipped with not-for-climbing 'biners (and, maybe, other unsuitable gear). The snap-links* I see at Home Despot and sLowe's clearly state they are not for climbing. right. and i still don't understand how the non rated 'biners ended up on the end of multiple dog bones. Or was he clipping the rope to just a 'biner attached to the bolt rather than a draw?
Also, 12 years old, leading 11c doesn't sound like the type to be using gear not rated (or to be using biners without dogbones)
here's another article which seems to suggest that they were simply using the non rated carabiners rather than quickdraws, although that could easily be attributed to the journalists lack of knowledge. However, it also gets right that microwave is the route he was on rather than the area.
https://azdailysun.com/news/local/year-old-boy-injured-in-climbing-accident-after-using-faulty/article_e49cc7fd-6af7-51e3-9c26-f9943a739618.html
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 11, 2018 - 11:24pm PT
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It's possible we'll never get the facts on this one unless a local to the area is able to sleuth out the facts.
My point by showing the two different but similar looking 'biners is that there's a lot of distance between being stupid enough to climb using Home Depot key ring clips versus using substandard 'biners that look real.
I hope we can find out specifically what happened. I think it matters. Right now, from what we know, this could be anything from a case of utter idiocy to the unintended use of a weak carabiner designed to look like a real one.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 12, 2018 - 03:06am PT
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hey there say, k solem...
oh my... as to this quote:
Anyway, the set came with four carabiners which I mistook for BD ovals until I looked more closely. They are unmarked, have no weight spec, and the metal doesn't look quite right. But at first glance they look exactly like the real thing.
yeah, sadly, they are ALL OVER the place, in so many stores...
as, it is 'cool' i think, they think, to have these...
i had to buy some, as, they were cheaper than the key loop brass clip, that
really wanted for my keys (broke after about 30 years) ... well,
the 'biner face thing' broke, after a week or so...
the other one, i am just very careful with it...
going to look for a big brass hook, soon as i can afford it...
but--yeah... very sad... kids do NOT know about this... :(
prayers for him to get well, and not have permanent damage...
and best wishes to him...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 12, 2018 - 03:12am PT
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hey there say, tom...
as to this quote...
very nicely said...
Everyone, here, has a duty and obligation to share knowledge about climbing safety, whenever possible. Subtle differences can mean the difference between life and death.
still hoping he gets well...
:(
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 12, 2018 - 04:44am PT
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Kris, isn’t a failure to exercise due diligence when buying climbing gear for yer 12 year old synonymous with ‘utter idiocy’?
“The prosecution rests its case, yer honour.”
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 12, 2018 - 05:42am PT
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isn’t a failure to exercise due diligence when buying climbing gear for yer 12 year old synonymous with ‘utter idiocy’? I don’t understand comments putting any if this on the kid, 12 is way too young, this is 100% parental failure.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 12, 2018 - 06:56am PT
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He's 12 years old. Mistakes happen with the inexperienced .we all did dumb sh#t at that age. Glad he's OK. He sounds pretty bold- hope the accident doesn't deter him if climbing is something he is interested in.
It would be interesting to know more details about how the biners were acquired. If the parents aren't climbers it's not inconceivable they purchased non- rated biners out of ignorance.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 12, 2018 - 07:09am PT
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I wonder if the rope was purchased at the same place as biners?
If the biners had been rated, the rope instead may have snapped.
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A Essex
climber
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Sep 12, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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I'm curious if these fake biners were on a quickdraw.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Sep 12, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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A few friends and I showed up at a small but still kind of popular top rope crag in the late 90s. When we arrived we found television journalist David Hartman belaying his teenage son who had just returned from a week of summer camp that included some climbing. Hartman's teenage daughter was waiting to climb next.
I walked up and around to the top to build an anchor only to find his son's anchor had their rope threaded THROUGH a single nylon sling. I walked back down and suggested they stop climbing for a few minutes and then grabbed some of their nice shiny biners and very new webbing/slings and walked back up to build them a proper anchor.
I brought down the somewhat frayed and fried sling and provided a brief explanation. Hartman was effusively appreciative. Seemed like a really nice guy.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 12, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
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Really hope the kid is going to recover fully and have another try at climbing with some experienced guidance. when I was about 11 or 12? I had an old weather beaten book of how to be and outdoorsman. It showed pencil sketch of rapelling with what I assume must have been a dulfersitz?? I promptly went out to the hay barn and stole one of the very old hemp ropes that we used to tie hay on the old farm truck. I say stole because Pa was pretty strict about goofin off with farm equiptment when there was work to be done. I got ahold of that old hemp rope and scrambled up the scraggly cliffs above the horse pasture. Could not quite figure out the whole wrap the rope around the tree thing so that you could pull it and retrieve the rope. I simply tied the rope to a tree and wrapped it over my shoulder and under my leg like in the picture. Seemed to work so I backed over the edge of that 20ft shist slab. the old rotten rope promptly broke and I went flying pretty darn good off the cliff and down the hill. just missed getting tangled up in the electric fence. Really lucky to land in soft leaves on a steep slope that I bounced and rolled down without hitting anything hard.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 12, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
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what did your Pa say, tradman?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 12, 2018 - 11:24pm PT
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hey there say, tradmanclimbs... :O
man oh man... :O
good you made it through childhood... :)
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Sep 13, 2018 - 12:00am PT
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^^^^^ Exactly (to tradman and nee bee). Thankfully he didn't totally crater and hopefully everything is recovery from simple injuries He will improve on his techniques and be more attentive to the gear he truly needs.
Eventually we learn the proper techniques. Give the lad a little slack, perhaps a bit of a loop.
S....
Edit: It doesn't mean there isn't a lesson to learn here just sayin...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 13, 2018 - 03:34am PT
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I am certain that I hid the broken rope and never mentioned it.
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