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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2018 - 08:41am PT
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i was wondering if anyone could elaborate on piton Stacking techniques, Im relatively new to wall climbing but I've gotten up clean walls like moonlight buttress and lurking fear, I did zodiac in a push with one hammered beak placement. So I am fairly comfortable C3 techniques,But then I climbed tribal rite which required quite a lot of hammered pins, mostly straight forward beaks but on a few pitches I ended up whacking in some angles and arrows, especially on the second to last pitch of WOEML, on that pitch I took the only whip of the climb when a sawed off leveraged out of the placement. I'm thinking fall could have been avoided by stacking. My main question is when and what do you guys do when you pull out the Z-tons or any other stacking techniques with other pins besides the conventional angle and a z.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Haven't nailed a pin in years. You seen to be describing a flared type placement with geometry that just doesn't fit any conventional pin, cam, nut, beak, or head. A 'nothing good' situation.
I have a related question - why not epoxy in a wire cable, much like how you patch a bolt hole? Prevents further rock destruction, creates a permanent piece. Lower down to the belay, smoke a bowl, come back up when it's dry. No further rock destruction. Eventually the route gets freed, or the cable breaks and someone taps a beak in.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Sorry to say, but if you hammered a beak on Zodiac, you're def not comfortable with C3 techniques. Plenty of people have climbed that thing clean without making C3 placements or nailing. I climbed Zodiac a few years back and my partner and I did not even handplace a beak let alone nail one and nothing we did could be considered C3 (except for my partner camhooking the entire nipple pitch - but even that could have been done without camhooking the entire thing)
And doubly sorry to say, Tribal Rite does not require "quite a lot" of hammered pins. I did not find a single use for the Ztons I brought with me and I don't recall ever using a sawed off as well since there were other placements that sufficed.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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I understand that pin stacks can be a sort of improv kind of thing, you just tie off what works sometimes. But there has got to be some stragies that work better than others for more secure tie offs. Or even just the case of the angle I poped, how do you stack with a z ton? Do you hammer in the z below the angle after or do you place the z first. there have got to be stacking techniques that offer more security in otherwise relatively straight forward angle or arrow placements.
Mr T, as interesting Wall theory your expoxy head question might be, could we please stick to responses regarding piton placement and stacking technique. I put this thread out there because it is a very real situation I faced and I plan on being In similar situations on harder aid walls this year and I would appreciate any insights I can learn from and improve my nailing game from.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I fiddled with stacking pins when I was a noob wall climber back in the 70's. Then I climbed with Daryl Hatten. He was not only good but fast. I fiddled, he just got it done. Just filling in spaces.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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J-tree, im not going to endulge your trolling and argue about clean climbing ethics or the legitimacys of my past ascents. i will agree most of the nailing on tribal rite was straight forward beaks.other than beaks the only other pins we placed where just 2 sawed offs and one lost arrow until the wall of early morning light, second to last pitch. Even on that pitch I did find other cleaner placements in much of the boxed out pin scars but there where a couple placements that I used sawed offs for. I created this thread not to argue about style of ascent but to learn from other people's experience in the nuanced craft of pegging and stacking even if there is limited application for these techniques theses days. Because those are tricks I still want in my bag regardless
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Honu,
I think I have pulled more stacked pins than I have placed, which is only possible if you pull the same placement more than once. That is an exaggeration, but the stack I remember most is pulling the same placement of stacked angles three times on one of the pitches between Sous Le Toit and the Headwall on the Salathe. I am surprised that stacking is necessary given the array of different gear available today, but I don't doubt you.
I would say that there are two elements to stacking pins. The first is finding the right combination of pins or pins and nuts and the way they fit together in the placement, and the second is how you tie them off to load them. It works best to sort out the second part before you setup the stack.
Two back-to-back knife blades tied-off with a sling is straight forward. Two nested angles is probably in the same category.
Crossed angles are tricky since there are point-to-point contacts that are not very secure. (I just referred to Royal's Advanced Rockcraft, and he states that crossing the open sides towards each other with the ribs against the rock is most secure.) With crossed angle stacks, I draped a sling around the stack back-to-front, either across the pins or against the edge on only one pin to get the load over the middle of the stack. In all cases, you cannot bottom out the pin you are pounding.
You also have to loop a sling or very loose biners through the eyes of the pins so they stay on the rope when they pull or to allow cleaning.
I found that moving up the aiders was the riskiest part, since any sort of change in the force vectors could cause the stack to fail.
I think that you can practice stacking on cracks in boulders, without a lot of pounding to draw attention to yourself, to get the hang of how to visualize how the force surfaces of a stack interact and how weight the stack is transmitted through the stack. It is engineering.
I call on Haan, Donini, Braun, Lauria, Worrall, and others, I am sure, to respond. I was almost exclusively a free climber and my experience on aid was limited.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I think it is a fair question, Honu. Ignore the trolls. I can think of a half dozen fine gents that post here that have real experience stacking pins that would gladly reply. Give it time, they don't hang out here all the time waiting for the next snide remark.
Lauria?
BooDawg?
Live is a Bivy?
I can think of a few more.
edit-- what Roger says.^^^^^
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Turtle,
1. Most stacked placements I used to be comfortable trying to test have been replaced by Totems and bi-camming.
2. Any pics of placements?
3. Use keeper slings, so that when the mess of a stacked blades blows, it doesn't go to the ground.
4. Heads vs. stacks. Usual heading knowledge (out of scope of thread), applies once the decision to use a head is decided.
5. How many beers to consume prior to doing multiple stacks in a row?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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It never occurred to me that the art of stacking pins would be studied or even discussed in a public forum. I don’t think any of us “old” guys even gave it much thought (Robbins in his Advanced Rockcraft gave it a page, but that was 1972, I’d already done most of my big walls by then). When one pin didn’t sufficiently fill the crack, fill the remaining space with whatever fit – and of course, tie it off with “hero loops” to reduce leverage. So much for the thought I put into it.
I must admit that attaching a safety sling through the eyes is something I never did. Not that it didn’t occur to me, but I was always in too much of a hurry. As a result, I lost close to 10 pitons on the 3rd pitch of the NA.
Honu, I guess you already know all you need to know. “I understand that pin stacks can be a sort of improv kind of thing, you just tie off what works sometimes. But there has got to be some strategies that work better than others for more secure tie offs.” If you want to get into strategies, I obviously don’t have any beyond the “improv” thing. I don’t even know what a Z-ton is (like an old Leeper?).
Although I appreciate that Wayno and Roger suggest that we old farts have some secrets to be revealed, you’ll have to hope BooDawg or Life is a Bivouac can add more to the discussion.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 11:29am PT
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Roger, I really appreciate your response. That is just the sort of contribution to this thread that I'm looking to learn from. Especially with regards to how you load various stacks. My knowledge of stacks is limited, that is why I posted this thread but it seems to me there are a couple different verities of stacks with different applications. It seems like there are the kind of stacks like the back to back KBs that you stack together multiple pins in a single scar and then tie off the stack at base For proper load distribution like you would for a any half drivin pin. And then it seems to me there is another kind of stack that creates like a platform for greater security for a single pin. Such as placeing a z ton below an angle to create shelf sort of situation. Am I correct in my useage of a Z ton? In that case would I just clip the eye of the angle or tie it just the angle off and leave the z supporting the primary pin?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Honu, Though I enjoy a clever misdirection as much as the next guy, nothing in my post was about clean climbing ethics or the legitimacy of your past ascents. (I'm assuming you have your own issues with this and thus projected)
I would say that if you reread my post you'll see that what I'm talking about is your perceived abilities that you stated in your own initial post. I won't say that though because I suspect you knew that, hence the misdirection. (I suspect because you seem relatively intelligent, if not overly stoked. I may be incorrect in assuming that and if I am I do apologize.)
finally, despite your relative perceived intelligence, you seem to mistake what the word trolling means. I think the phrase you meant to use when referring to my post was "being an as#@&%e" which I don't deny.
The actual answer to your question (which I suspect you won't take due to the tone of your posts in this thread thus far) if literally, "you'll need to figure it out as you go because the only hard and fast rule is use what works when it works." Yes, Deucey gave you a good starting point by referring to paying attention to the shape of the pins themselves as well as using hero loops to catch everything if it fails but I suspect you probably figured that out already.
It's bigwall; everytime you "figure out" something, the next wall is going to teach you that there's always an exception and nothing is a rule every time.
Have fun out there.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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Don, yes the z ton I'm mentioning is an old leeper. Also Others have mentioned that most places you would need to stack have been replaced by modern gear like cams. I'm considering the few times modern gear like cams won't cut it and the use of a sawed off is required. Because I'm a young climber, clean gear is all I used to know. So even the basics of nailing anything other than a beak has nuances besides the basics of how to drive them properly, that I haven't needed to know generally and I may find my self again in a spot like I was in on that second to last pitch of WOEML wishing I had a better grasp on how to fortify pin strength by staking.
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WBraun
climber
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Pin stacking techniques?
You are gonna learn?
LOL !!!!
These modern climbing zombies will all attack you like a pack of frenzied hyenas.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Your examples are correct. If you have an angle which almost fills the space and need just a little more, the thickness of the z-ton will do it securely. The benefit of the z-ton is that it has two points of contact against the rock. If your space and pin selection is such that you need two angles, face-to-face, then the z-ton won't help unless you need it in a three pin stack. My assumption is that stacks are going to be dicey, in which case the tie-off needs to be close to or on top of the contact points that are holding the stack together. I sort of remember stacking a 3 inch bong and 2 inch angle in rotten rock--the one that popped three times. Unlike Don, I always tied my pins off with a keeper. If I recall, Don owned a Mountaineering Store, (West Ridge, Don?) and may have had enough pins to lose 10 and still get up.
Don's general assessment is correct: you find something that works and then figure out how to tie them off. The part that lends itself to practice is figuring out how to use the third hand which is needed to hold it all together as you pound. The best advice in this regard is to use your dominate hand for the hammering and the other two to hold the pins.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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J tree, I deflected your response because it wasn't related to what this thread is about. I provided my brief list of credentials as a way a providing context that Im a young climber who do to the general trend of the sport has more experience with clean aid than with a hammer. Your comments about the climbing on zodiac and tribal rite are just not relevant to the discussion I want to insight on this thread. I hope for comments regarding mechanics of the types of stacks and how to tie them off. A nuanced field of aid climbing that, like any placement has to be figured out in the moment due to the particular nature of
Each placement, but the general themes of which could be discussed here to the benefit of all.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
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http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=OjU4NjkiICQmLQ,,
So can anyone explain this stack? It's from the recent fisher towers trip report a line in the sand
It kind of looks like a frost draw or a rivet hanger is being used as a tie off on the arrow
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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I can't say it more clearly - whatever works!
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Slym
climber
Merced, CA
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5. How many beers to consume prior to doing multiple stacks in a row?
After some research, it's subjective, but formula-based:
N = (P/abv)/((S+1)+T)
Where:
"N" = number of beers
"P" = pucker factor on a 1-3 scale, with 3 being most puckered
"abv" = the alcohol by volume of the subject beer
"S" = number of stacked placements in a row, including the one at hand
"T" = total pins in the stacked placements
Note that this is beers-per-placement.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Yes, whatever works.
Sometimes whatever works well without fiddling around for two hours trying to get that clean placement.
The first time I did Half Dome was the first time I bivied and the first time I did aid. No hammer or cams, just hexes and stoppers was the order of the day. I remember fiddling with one placement that was above the zig-zags for a couple of hours. A few years later I did the route again with Daryl. He brought a hammer. Our rack was still hexes and stoppers, but with a couple of first gen. Friends. Daryl used the hammer to clean pins that he traded for beers and smokes. Daryl made quick work of that placement that took me hours to figure out. It was a neat little stack job that took him less than two minutes to complete. A fat copperhead would have done it but I wasn't into that yet and the ballnut wasn't invented yet. Ethical considerations weren't much of a factor in our decision making process at that point either.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I think nowadays that stacking pins is pretty much a historical footnote. Even when I used them, I could have probably used a cam, I just didn't have any cams. I was too cheap. Pins were cheap and plentiful as everyone wanted to climb clean. I just wanted to do walls and I couldn't free much past 5.9.
So I made my own haulbag out of old canvas mailbags, scrounged a bunch of pins and a hammer and tried things that I wasn't sure I could do. Stacking wasn't that hard to figure out. I have probably tried fifty stacking placements. Most of them worked without too much fiddling. There is so much more new gear and techniques available these days that stacking doesn't make much sense except to see how the old guys used to do it.
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ec
climber
ca
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I led that 2nd to the last pitch on WOEML so long ago, there were no stacks, just short arrows on that funky ramp and then a few of the tiniest RPs on the straight-in crack...I was just climbing to get off the wall after a good part of a week. I do recall Ed Sampson remarking about most all of the arrows falling out while cleaning, lol
 ec
edit: on other occasions, pin stacks saved my ass. I actually learned by nailing stacks on some remote boulders close to the deck BITD. Had a buddy try to call BS on some placements only to become a believer after forcing him onto them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The cabled stack to which you refer was just one of many "cable-cammed" stacks that work really well in flared, bottomed, sandy slots. I've done quite a bit of "pin-stacking" in my day, and I've always found that it works best to use not just pins. Any "classic" stack of pins can be made better by integrating a cable, small nut, or small copperhead into the mix.
In this case, it was a flattened #2 copperhead (what used to be sold as a #1). You can mash the desired taper into the head, making it into a very small, semi-pliable "nut." Then, tappy-tappy with whatever stack of pins creates the necessary wedging action. Of course, you weight the cable rather than any of the pins, and, of course, you thread a keeper sling through the pin-eyes prior to weighting.
Small nuts, rivet loops, and small copperheads all work great to integrate into the stack (I've even found a knotted or folded sling to work well), and the upside to that sort of approach, rather than the classic approach of tying off the stack itself and weighting the tie-off, is significantly reduced leverage. The cable is weighting "inside" the stack, "in" the rock, rather than outside the crack.
Moreover, you can create some excellent purely-cammed placements, where you never hammer the pins, just press them in hard as you jerk down/out on the cable. The whole goal is to get the cable or small nut to wedge up on the wedge of the pin(s), so that it's like "inverted nuts," only for thinner placements than inverted nuts can do. That sort works best for vertical placements rather than horizontal ones.
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gruzzy
Social climber
socal
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Aid climbing sounds like an interesting adventure. I learned a few things.
Thank you
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Excellent post madbolter. To add to that I would suggest practicing this stuff in a 'bouldering' fashion rather that high on a wall. Practice and develop impossible placements 1 one foot off the ground. That in itself is a lot of fun. That goes with clean stuff too. I often thought years ago a book showing placements would be cool - I even wanted to make a poster. With the internet, methods could be compiled and everyone could go bigwall climbing!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Amen to that. Aid bouldering is an art in its own right.
Edit: Of course, like traditional bouldering, being willing to make the move one foot from the ground is a very different thing from standing on that same placement facing a bad fall. ;-)
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Honu I'm digging this thread.
that pitch is the kind of pitch where, before you get on the wall, your'e like "Oh yeah bro, I'm all about clean climbing practices, yeah bro, we need to make sure the wall is preserved for future generations"
Then when you're on the pitch, you're like "Hey Tag me up all the pins and an extra nut tool and 15 tie-offs "
Too funny and too true!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nothing says fun like bounce testing a stack and realizing your real problem is the sound of tearing fabric.
For me, that's typically the sound of my undies filling beyond the bursting point.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2018 - 01:56am PT
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Madbolter1, I really appreciate your response on the thread, that level of intricacy in a stack seems like something that could be really fun to play around with. I have some busted up circle heads I used to aid boulder with, the perfect kind of flattened head you mentioned. On a cold day I'm going to go out to some boulders and mess around with that technique to get the pins to cam just for shits and giggles. Seems like a good trick to have in the bag if I ever man up enough to take on one of your fishers routes!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 10, 2018 - 05:53am PT
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MUSICAL INTERPOSITION? IF IT SOUNDS RIGHT AND HIGH-STEPPIN' IS THE NEED,
WHEN/IF THERE IS A GOOD-R' PLACEMENT IN-SIGHT,
GET ON AND OFF THAT STACK WITH THE SPEED AFFORDED BY THE FOREBODED FRIGHT,
IT IS THE THING THAT KEEPS YA MOVING UP
NOW FOR THAT SONG
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 10:42am PT
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On a cold day I'm going to go out to some boulders and mess around with that technique to get the pins to cam just for shits and giggles.
I hope you have a great time! People that find this sort of thing intriguing are increasingly anachronisms. Welcome to the club of the utterly useless!
:-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 10, 2018 - 10:56am PT
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Pin stacking was replaced by copper heads - like back in the 70's. The addition of modern small offset cams make it 100% unnecessary in all situations.
At best, it's a slow pain in the butt. Every pin needs be slung together in case they pop, better have a ginormous and heavy pin rack with you, etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 11:14am PT
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The addition of modern small offset cams make it 100% unnecessary in all situations.
LOL
I love universal claims.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 10, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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With hooks and heads you can eliminate your entire pin rack, it’s just slower.
Stacking - the ultimate aid nerd thread...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 04:02pm PT
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With hooks and heads you can eliminate your entire pin rack
Since you repeatedly insist, and since it's obvious that NO thread can exist on the Taco Stand without knock-down, drag-out fights, I'll simply respond that your statement is incorrect.
Moreover, what you seem to be saying is: "ANY pitch can be done with just hooks and heads, even if it means that it's A5 to do so, while with proper stacking/cable-camming techniques that pitch could be A2."
I can tell you from numerous pitches, particularly thin-expanding and stuff like Cutler sandstone, that your sweeping statements are either flatly untrue or will result in making pitches much more dangerous or less sustainable.
I'll offer an example out of countless that could be cited. There is a pitch of Line in the Sand that requires you to navigate an ultra-sandy, bottomed, very flared, slightly-overhanging "crack." Try alumaheads or even deadheads all you like. Good luck with that! Nothing to hook, so I guess by your model either trenched heads or manufactured hooks are the "solution."
What actually works nicely, easily, and straightforwardly, however, is to hand-place an alumahead in the back of the "crack" and gently tap an angle-tip in just below the head. As you weight the head, it pulls down onto the tip of the piton, wedges up there, and is "cammed" via the tip of the piton. Because there is essentially no leverage "on the piton," as long as the piton catches at all, the head is the placement.
Well, that's a "stack," and it defies your sweeping statement.
Another such example is the picture people have referred to. You could try a circlehead there all you wish. In that soft sandstone, it just blows out immediately, leaving a blown-out flair there that can't even take a stack. Okay, now you've got either a trenched head or rivet there.
Another example concerns thin-expanding flakes. Many people don't realize that modern active cams put about twice as much "outward" pressure as the "downward" weight on the cam. So, if you weigh 200 pounds with your rack, you are trying to "pry off" an expanding flake with 400 pounds of pressure. By contrast, a cable cam can be hand-placed (I did it repeatedly on the notoriously expanding Groovy Arch pitch) that exerts a fraction of the downward force as outward force. Hence, no expansion. No heads are going to work there. Or, you could cam-hook the whole pitch, making it much more dangerous than it needs to be.
So, in short, your sweeping claim is flatly false in many circumstances; or it demands that pitches are made much more dangerous than they need to be; or it demands that more rock damage is done or drilled placements placed. And all of this because your claim asserts that "the way" means reducing the sorts of tactics you learn to employ.
Stacking and cable-camming are delicate and non-obvious arts, but knowing how to use such techniques can indeed enable you to "lightly" get up pitches safer than if you only know how to employ heavy-handed tactics like blasting heads in everywhere you have a question of what to do. And, particularly on delicate rock, just blasting in heads everywhere is an unsustainable tactic, unless you always leave them in place and/or you're trenching when you should be outright drilling a sustainable drilled placement.
I would literally find your sweeping statement to be laughable or trolling, except that you've repeated it like you're serious.
Maybe you're just into the "fast and light" game, so you eschew any tactic that can't be "instantly" employed. I don't know what your presumptions are. But I do know that your universal assertion is false and/or makes pitches more dangerous or unsustainable than they need to be.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 10, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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Two large angles stacked to fit a 3+" crack. No cams that would fit and nothing bigger than a 2" angle. Simple stack. Try and do that with heads and hooks. Or I could use my biggest hex and stack some pins in there.
Mind you, these are tricks that got us through when we didn't have better gear. We didn't let the fact that we did not have a rack of the latest tech gear stop us.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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^^^ Indeed. And particularly with very flared and/or sandy "rock," the "usual tactics" flatly fail, and you have to get more exotic or resort to trenching/drilling.
Of course, the climb-by-numbers, fast-and-light heroes don't care to learn more exotic tactics. And for good-rock, A3 and below, that's understandable. But it doesn't justify JLP's sweeping, universal claim.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 10, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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Welllllllll, MB1,it seems to me the difference in opinion rests on the the definition of climbing. I would prefer to think that the situations you describe, while on rock and part of an ascent, are not part of rock climbing. Too f*#king scary. Come to think of it, I think the same of beaks (whatever those are) and hooks.
I reached the same conclusion about stacking big angles. I either had to lose 180 lbs of my 170 lbs or deplete my pin rack by fixing pins on all-free ascents. Finally, after nearly 40 years, my pin rack was gone: I donated the remaining ca 1970 pins to the climbing museum.
Kidding aside, using pins to create a shape to expand with a head placement is pretty cool. We just used heads in traditional pin stacks to locate the pull force near the axis of the stack force.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
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We just used heads in traditional pin stacks to locate the pull force near the axis of the stack force.
That's a REALLY good way to describe it, imo. Thank you.
Many ways to achieve that basic end.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 10, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
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My notes from climbing the 2nd to last pitch of WoEML in 1993:
I headed up and soon had to call
for the pins. Eventually, a nice pocketed seam headed up a blankish gold
headwall, and I had fun with the technical placements (tapping small
stoppers, tied off pins). Just when it turned to an A4 RURP seam below the
belay, rivets appeared, which was a letdown and a relief at the same time.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
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"What actually works nicely, easily, and straightforwardly, however, is to hand-place an alumahead in the back of the "crack" and gently tap an angle-tip in just below the head. As you weight the head, it pulls down onto the tip of the piton, wedges up there, and is "cammed" via the tip of the piton. Because there is essentially no leverage "on the piton," as long as the piton catches at all, the head is the placement."
~ Madbolter
Damn! That's cool!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 10, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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There's a reason piton craft is called the dark art, and a lost art.
With that said :) ...
"What actually works nicely, easily, and straightforwardly, however, is to hand-place an alumahead in the back of the "crack" and gently tap an angle-tip in just below the head."
Horseshit on the emphasized word maddybolter! buahahahaha
Trouser ladle better be a part of the rig to scoop them drawers clean. lol
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 10, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
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Slym, LOL, love that pic too!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
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Horseshit on the emphasized word maddybolter! buahahahaha
Point taken. Heh
Loved your "trouser ladle" line! That was classic.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 10, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
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Jim I just watched the full eight minute film. That was awesome. I thought it was just a small clip for my full feature 80s flick but it was actually a "short." Quite goofy in many ways but actually some really good footage. The scene where he rips all the pitons was actually kind of spooky!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 10, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
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I love the first piton-driving scene, where he's driving the baby angle eye-down in a vertical crack. Yup, everything we need to know about pitons.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 11, 2018 - 12:35am PT
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For what it's worth......
We mostly used stacks in shallow pockets, by hammering a cut-off Leeper between two cut-off Cassins*. Luckily the offset eye on the Leeper allowed you to use a cut-off. We would also hammer two large angles (bongs) at right angles to each other, for wider cracks. The eye of the vertically placed angle could get in the way. Not sure if that counts as stacking?
*Take the cut-off tip of the Cassin (or whatever), drill a small hole, thread it and voila, you have a "Smashie". They were scary. I think that I only ever placed one.
Hanging out on 3 pin stacks, driven up vertically into the pockets on Bishop's Balcony.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 11, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
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Cassin as a 'smashie' makes me think of a 'bashie'
Were all the Cassin's soft metal at that time?
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
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Disappointed...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
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I've stacked blades, blades and arrows too. You just do what you have to when nothing else seems 'good enough'.
You learn quicker if you are 30 ft out.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 11, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
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As far as I know, all Cassins were made of that soft silvery metal.
Correction to my previous post. We always referred to this technique as "Nesting", not "Stacking". I wonder when and where the term stacking originated?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2018 - 11:13pm PT
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Pin stacking comes fairly naturally given sufficient desperation.
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Enzo
climber
California
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Jan 31, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
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I remember leap-frogging stacks of 1 1/2" to 3" pitons on a wall in the dark. Had to do it by feel, so it's hard to describe.
Good luck ;-)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 31, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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Nested bongs, now that's something no one has mentioned.
I've done some of these low down on the Gold Wall WAY back in the day, and it wasn't conducive to confidence. The pitch was dirty and grungy and awkward and nasty in every conceivable way. After I got to the belay I was so disheartened over the length of time it took we bailed. I was climbing with Bruce Price, who drove the school bus from the Valley to Mariposa, who'd been to the Dolomites and had lots of wall experience but none placing bong stacks.
There was the pitch Roger mentioned somewhere below Sous le Toit ledge and it needed a constant supply of 1.25" angles placed in a very sandy crack. We had half a dozen, including one in the belay anchor below me. I had to get real frisky with inventive placements and even called on Doug Ross to send up the anchor pin.
I always coveted the North Face of HCR, first done in 1960 by KAMPS, CHOUINARD and PRATT, who avoided the roofs on the last two pitches, which were later climbed successfully by PRATT and HENNEK. The rack called for 45-50 pins from KBs up to 3" bongs for a wall only 1,000' high. I never got on that route, unfortunately.
Oddly, in all my nailing, I never used a single Leeper pin, though I had a half-dozen in my possession. Just never needed them.
You learn best by doing, not by asking, BTW.
Edit: Hamie did mention placing two bongs crosswise in wide cracks. I overlooked his post, apparently, or forgot it was there.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 31, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
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^^^ Spot on, imo, especially: "...disdained heading except under duress as a mark of a hack."
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that old guy
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 31, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
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back in the day, had a little success using Lepers where I coulda stacked. It works up to about 45 degrees off the horizontal, along the line of the hook.. Lepers get more sketchy the more vertical they are placed. Thank God I got over that habit!!!
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 31, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
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Mouse says "Nested bongs, now that's something that no one has mentioned."
Please read my post of Jan 11,on this thread.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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I didn't't read the entire tread...forgive me...its rare that it would stop you...I never worry about it but if needed you just think geometry. Maybe a little physics? I guess thats part of the game???
Sheesh just use your imagination?
Good luck!
S....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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i agree with all the above ... just don't forget to tie all the eyes together with keepers so you don't lose everything when it all comes apart
also being tired of all the fiddling is why we invented mashies and bashies ... various small blocks of aluminum with a hole in the middle for a wire (we used parachute cord and had to be careful not to cut it with the hammer)
the trick is to mash it mercilessly into the hole ... it's pretty amazing how well you can get them to grip in a shallow depression where nothing else will stick
obviously copperheads are the same idea, except mashes can be about any size
the polite thing to do is leave them there for the next person
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Nice drawings of an almost lost art.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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At the risk of being told I am off topic and should be neutered...
This is an interesting sliding nut combo I had not seen before. British it seems.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Curious are Leeper pins still in use? I always found them extremely useful for stacking.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2018 - 07:58pm PT
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I really appreciate all the usefully responses guys! I would have never have thought to cam copperheads with pins or "nest" angles by crossing them. This has given me all sorts of ideas to keep in my bag as I solo afroman this week! does anyone ever carry knife blades anymore just to stack with beaks? The rack for afroman doesn't call for KBs because beaks have rendered them relatively useless besides a few oddball placement like in roofs, and horizontals. But even in those cases I suppose you'd just tie the beak blade off. Is it worth taking a couple KBs or bugs just like you'd take a z, just for the explicit use of stacking?
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The Larry
climber
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the trick is to mash it mercilessly into the hole ... it's pretty amazing how well you can get them to grip in a shallow depression where nothing else will stick
Not when the route goes hammerless.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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desert sandstone seems so untrustworthy.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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What a bunch of old farts you are! I haven't stacked a pin in YEARS, yet somehow I manage to climb all of these aid routes lately!
Throw away your zed-tons, get yourself some hybrid Aliens and Totems and did I mention PECKERS???!!!
Join the New Millennium you pathetic old turds, quit whining on internet forums, screw your courage to the sticking point, and GO F*#KING CLIMB SOMETHING for once. Instead of talking about it here.
[/rant]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ You old fart yourself, go climb some real rock, something that takes some real skill, like desert sandstone. Or, you can just keep climbing by the numbers on that Yosemite rinse-and-repeat. LOL
Bwahahaha
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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LOL! What kind of idiot would ever believe that desert sandstone is "rock"?!
Now, see if you can fit your helmet over top of your pompadour, and come to El Cap in the spring and climb something with me! I need your help, I'm just a punter.
Please come climb with me, as you will make me look fast. What did it take? THREE SEASONS to climb your FA in Fisher Towers?
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Love you, my friend.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ I think that we're every bit as slow as you, my friend.
And, yeah, the Fishers are NOT rock. Hehe
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Feb 10, 2018 - 07:02am PT
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Some excellent and important comments here.. Stacking is an art form that was required to get up any A5 a few decades ago. Now not so much, but sometimes it can still be the best option. One key to the stack is to recess the point of leverage as deep as possible. Another key is being creative with your technology. My personal favorite combo are heads and pins though I have used an array of combinations down through the years. Yes The continuing evolution of technology has eliminated much of the need for it but if you aspire to the really spicy routes on El Cap or in Zion, ect. A good strong stack can be the key to survival...
A couple of other important aspects before jumping on a spicy nail up that Bridwell taught me. 1) Assume the mind set ‘ I don’t take falls’. ‘I don’t have time for them’. Make the placement correctly. Do it right the first time. 2) ‘Don’t clip the junk’ If it’s a small head or body weight placement don’t bother clipping it. Don’t stroke yourself and think somewhere in this string of Junk something is going to stop me. Don’t waste the energy and time. You just going to have to redo all that work if you fall. 3) overhanging routes are best to learn on. Especially when you first start.
So Learn the art form. Stacking can open up the Road Less Traveled.
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reallyy big star
Social climber
some, place
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Feb 10, 2018 - 09:25am PT
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i always bounce-test the day.
not to see if it's gonna blow,
but instead to see how it'll go.
this is how i do it:
i open the door to my truck,
and i toss my old cell phone
into the bonnet, trying to land
it on the passenger chair.
if it stays on the cushion, then the day'll go well.
if the cell phone careens off vector, and ends up
in one of the cracks, then i know the day'll be a struggle.
i do ariel tree work for a trade,
and i alter my approach depending on
how my bounce-test goes.
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| Messages 1 - 72 of total 72 in this topic |
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