Discussion Topic |
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AidanPunts
Sport climber
Victoria, BC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
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Does anyone know if Peter Croft's onsight of the shadow has ever been repeated? I just read Stanhope's piece about his attempt and I was curious. Has anyone ever onsighted the shadow other than Peter? Such an inspiring story. I read Peter's writing about it in "the Trad Climber's Bible" but after reading that I just assumed someone else had onsighted it by now but I can't find anywhere that says anyone has.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Aug 16, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
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There hasn't been a true second ascent - on sight - that I know of.
The nature of the pitch may have changed a little since 1988. It has probably gotten a bit more polished, from all the toproping and sieging that goes on. But the fixed pins have been removed, opening up holds.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
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As impressive as Peter's effort was it was technically a first try ascent and not on an sight flash.
You're staring straight at the corner from a couple meters away from both belays on the free variation out left.
To the best of my knowledge the Shadow corner hasn't yet had an on sight flash.
PB
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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Alex Honnold; roped and unroped
Edit: Roped only, my bad...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
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Chief - you drive a tough bargain. You're not allowed to be able to see the route?
No beta - no watching another climber on it (successful or not) - no video's, pictures, etc. - no previous tries on your own (obviously) - climbing it first try with no pre-placed gear other than what's fixed = on-sight flash.
One could also argue that lengthy study with binocs etc., taints the ascent.
I'm not sure what you'd have to call it with a blindfold on... :-)
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
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Merely, hearing or reading about a climb would be NOT on-sight either, so, one must have to consequently be strolling along, clueless and climb it...BS
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
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As impressive as Peter's effort was it was technically a first try ascent and not on an sight flash.
What the heck is an "on sight flash"? To my understanding, there's
-onsight: climb it clean, first attempt, without any beta
-flash: climb it clean, first attempt, with beta
How do you combine those?
Edit: and the word "onsight" suggests to me "as you see it", which means looking is okay.
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ruppell
climber
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Aug 16, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
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You can look at a route all you want. As soon as you step foot onto it that's when the OS begins. At least for me.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 16, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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What the heck is an "on sight flash"? To my understanding, there's
-onsight: climb it clean, first attempt, without any beta
-flash: climb it clean, first attempt, with beta
How do you combine those?
Now that you mention it...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 16, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
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My only rules are: Who cares
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Aug 16, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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I guess the OED won't help us with these definitions?
I agree, probably alongside Ken Wilson, that there is a difference between walking up to a new line and climbing it, versus what Mountain Magazine used to call pre-inspection, such as rapping down to have a look before committing.
In the case of The Shadow I would think that prior inspection could be a deterrent and a handicap rather than a help, except that it might be reassuring to see pins. Or it might not.
I remember hearing when Andreas and Devon both repeated the route, 13 years after Peter, and only thinking "WOW!", and have never wondered what the style of their ascents had been, until now.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 16, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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Yep. But there's little shame in being blown out of the ballpark by Honnold... :-)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 16, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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@Tami: Maybe. A couple of things: First, Honnold knew it could be climbed and that it had been climbed. Second, Honnold did a roped ascent first, so he knew what he was getting into. To do an on-sight FIRST FREE ASCENT of a route of this caliber is freaking out of this world. I think, for example, Reardon's on-sight solo of Romantic Warrior is perhaps the greatest rock climbing feat of all time. Unless he rehearsed it--correct me if I'm wrong--but the whole "on sight" aspect of both Croft's and Reardon's ascents make them exceptional. We all know this from our own experience on the rock. Once you know what's coming, the game changes in so many ways.
BAd
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Timmc
climber
BC
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Aug 16, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
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Wow, Honnold soloed the Shadow? I thought he 'just' climbed U Wall ( original free version by Croft, Foweraker,and Fraser, without a rope.
Solid indeed.
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AidanPunts
Sport climber
Victoria, BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
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Wow I did not know that Honnold soloed the shadow. I always just assumed it was only the Uwall. According to Will Stanhope's story on his website, Honnold didn't do the shadow first try though.
Edit: does anyone have a link to somewhere that says Honnold soloed the shadow? I can't find anything anywhere that says he did. Just links saying he soloed the Uwall.
@chief I really don't see how looking at the holds from a distance can blow your onsight. I mean yeah if you rap down it then it's a flash, but if you just see it from a distance how is that different from seeing a picture of someone on it or even just examining it extensively from the ground. Surely the definition of onsight should be broader than that no?
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Aug 16, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
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What if you walk up to it and simply do it first go, nothing pre-placed, no fixed pins, all on wires #5 and below, but there is chalk all over it? Granted some of the chalked holds are bogus. I'd say if you walk away proud then its a great send for you.
S...
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Aug 16, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
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yeah, i'd appreciate a source on a potential free solo of the shadow...
i did some googling and as far as i can tell, i believe the idea that honnold soloed the shadow is mistaken... that said, i'd be happy to be proven wrong...
and as far as whether croft's first ascent was an onsight or a flash? with all due respect Chief, considering you don't seem to understand the generally held meanings of and differences between an onsight and a flash, i'd suggest your quibbling is mistaken. unless croft was intentionally scoping it out and able to glean beta on the line that became the shadow while climbing nearby [and only he would know the answer to that] given what we do know, there's a reason his ascent is generally held to be the gold standard regarding what an onsight is conventionally defined to be...
anyway, an amazing route and an amazing feat... it's up there with cameron's onsight free solo first free ascent of pipeline for futuristic impeccability [given the years they were both first climbed in].
edit: to add a word as per JB's correction two posts down...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Aug 16, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
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Greg can surely flesh out the following.
Peter, with Haggis and Greg, freed University Wall in 1982. They didn't do the lower, scruffy pitches - rarely done. On the second and sixth pitches, they did significant variations to the left, probably not even 5% of the length of the climb. They simply said they'd freed U Wall - as it's locally known - where it was understood that they meant with the variations.
The title of Peter's article in the Canuckistani Alpine Journal of 1982 was "University Wall - Free". It indicates that:
A. They freed the first three pitches, and fixed ropes.
B. Either before or after that, they freed the five Roman Chimbleys pitches.
C. They then returned and finished freeing it to Dance Platform, where they were driven off by rain.
D. Some time later, Peter and Hamish returned and did it all free, in a day.
It appears that they rappelled down, and jumared back up the big corner pitch, the one under discussion.
Whether Peter had done the route on aid previously, or repeated it after his and Hamish's ascent, I don't know. In 1988, he returned with Geoff Weigand and did the original second and sixth pitches of University Wall free, calling it (free) The Shadow, as it shows a very distinct shadow at about midday, when seen from the west.
Accurate nomenclature drives guidebook writers and historians crazy - ask me about South Arete some time.
There may have been five or six years between the last time Peter was on or near the route, and the 1988 ascent. He talks in his account of that climb of finding an unexpected and helpful hold near the end of the big corner, which suggests that he may not have remembered much beyond that it was a big, steep, clean corner, with a thin crack and some fixed pins. Which is what you'd see arriving from below, without foreknowledge.
An interesting philosophical question, partly depending on the memory (or not) of each climber. But a five or six year gap seems pretty much an on sight to me.
As for Alex, the reports at the time made it clear that he free soloed University Wall by the 1982 line, that is using the variation that avoid the big corner. I believe that he'd done the route roped previously.
Greg Cameron's free solo second ascent of Pipeline was also an out of the box climb. It had been tried free before, at least into the start of the big crack, but Greg probably didn't know that. He didn't know much about it all, except that Perry thought he should climb it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 16, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WHOA!
Them's fightin words
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 16, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
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STEP UP OR SHUT UP
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Aug 16, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 16, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
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"With all due respect Chief, considering you don't seem to understand the generally held meanings of and differences between an onsight and a flash, i'd suggest your quibbling is mistaken."
That's an interesting statement.
I was always under the impression that on sight meant you had at best, never seen the pitch before.
After that it's increments of prior knowledge.
Peter's first try flash of the Shadow set a new standard in Squamish free climbing and was probably as impressive a lead as had been done anywhere at that time.
I think he'd agree he'd looked at the main corner, multiple times from a couple meters away and had a pretty good idea about what was and wasn't there.
I saw him and Geoff the day they climbed it and talked to Peter about it later.
He told me his calves and butt cheeks were sore for days.
I never heard him refer to his effort as an on sight.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 16, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
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"With all due respect Chief, considering you don't seem to understand the generally held meanings of and differences between an onsight and a flash, i'd suggest your quibbling is mistaken."
Yeah, Perry, since you don't know anything about climbing, how can anyone take your posts seriously?
God damn, Supertopo is a funny place.
Hope to see you on Psyche Ledge.
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 16, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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My bad. Honnold only soloed the Uwall.
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 16, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
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Bad Climber wrote,
" I think, for example, Reardon's on-sight solo of Romantic Warrior is perhaps the greatest rock climbing feat of all time".
Would have been if it actually happened.
HaHa...the FA of Romantic Warrior was a true 'on sight' as we never, ever had even been to the base. I saw the 'line' from Dome Rock and 'assumed' there was something worthwhile there. Now, THAT actually happened.
 ec
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Empellerin
Trad climber
Repentigny
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Aug 22, 2018 - 09:30am PT
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Here's a little update: I onsighted The Shadow 2 weeks ago with absolutely no info about the route. I was going for Uwall, but when I stood at the base of that pitch, my partner mentioned this was the famous Shadow pitch... so I thought, why not give it a try!?? :) After nearly an hour of burning, twitching calves, I managed to hit that final jog! F*** YEAH!!!
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Aug 22, 2018 - 09:43am PT
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badass. nice work!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 22, 2018 - 10:15am PT
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Nice work - but kind of looks like you have a thin and pre-sorted rack on your harness and placements below are at tick marks - like you had very detailed gear beta.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 22, 2018 - 10:30am PT
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Rad send Empellerin. Glad you posted up. A stellar feat for sure. Welcome to Supertopo where there's a good chance you'll be roasted, slandered, congratulated and flattered all in one day. This thread could easily disintegrate into a fist-fight regarding the exact definition of an onsight, but I always thought an onsight meant
"Walking up to a route with no prior knowledge of the route and sending, ground up, from bottom to top."
That means to claim an onsight means you
1. Have never seen a topo
2. Haven't seen a gear list
3. Have no real prior deal breaker beta beta
If you have any of these its not really an onsight. Is this pretty much consensus? Am I right or missing something? Maybe there are no real rules and all that matters is that you have fun but hold "Onsight" as a pretty sacred thing. Anybody else want to chime in on this? Who cares really but it sure is fun to argue about around campfires and the interwebs!
Again, fantastic send. Stay stoked and keep posting up!
Scott
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crøtch
climber
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Aug 22, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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JLP wrote:Nice work - but kind of looks like you have a thin and pre-sorted rack on your harness and placements below are at tick marks - like you had very detailed gear beta.
I saw people working the Shadow last week and they likely placed the ticks seen in the photo. And when you are standing at the base of an obvious finger crack, why bring the big gear?
Sounds like a great achievement.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Aug 22, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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Well done Empellerin, very cool.
I'm curious about the photo. Did you have a "preplaced" photographer, or did someone from another unrelated party take the great shot? Spectacular either way.
I was surprised to read upthread that at one time there had been fixed pins on the Shadow pitch. These were not left by the FA party, and were added later.
I was also disappointed to read that climbers are now top roping/flailing/projecting on the Shadow pitch, and polishing the rock. I have always thought that if you cannot do a pitch, then you should go away and practice on climbs that you can do, and come back when your skills are higher. Preserving the nature of the rock should be more important than someone's ego.
The true line of UWall follows the Shadow pitch, and also finishes up the Roman Chimneys. Anything less is, well, something less.
Rant over!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 22, 2018 - 11:00am PT
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Tick marks combined with the rather detailed and sequentially listed gear on MP.com would make the climb a different beast.
It's still impressive as a flash. It is what it is. All the hard and classic climbs these days are in this condition - hordes of suitors.
She may have nailed the rack, too. To have that little gear left on her harness, with possibly a few pieces with a draw attached, takes some experience.
However, you can't say "absolutely no info" if you used the MP.com list.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 22, 2018 - 11:08am PT
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Excellent!
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Rocky IV
Social climber
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Aug 22, 2018 - 11:15am PT
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ha, grumbles from the old 5.9 climbers...
Peter probably had loads of fixed pins to clip, making it a sport pitch. There have always been strong climbers. I bet if you asked Peter he'd say he doesn't really care one way or the other.
Get out there and enjoy the few years you have left!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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Yep exactly ^^^^^
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Nutty
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Aug 22, 2018 - 11:38am PT
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Spectacular route and send Emilie, cheers!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
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Thanks for posting, Emilie. Awesome send!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 22, 2018 - 03:48pm PT
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Shore is a purdy corner! Gorgeous shot of Empellerin on it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Aug 22, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Sorry, Hamish - we may have left a fixed pin or two when we nailed it, and there may well have been a few already there. (All removed over the years since.) But I agree with your general sentiments as to style.
(Two of the four who did the first ascent of University Wall sometimes post here.)
Delighted that what seems to be the second free ascent was also by a Canadian - and a female at that.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 22, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
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Hilarious that JLP thinks she had beta on the pro because she has thin pro racked on her harness for a thin crack. Brain surgeon.
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domngo
climber
Canada
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Aug 22, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
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Matt Thompsen I don't think the list in the article is meant to be exhaustive. Quite sure you could add M.A. Leclerc to the Canadians list. Not to mention climbers on the humble that I dare say have also probably climbed it...
whose counting really...badass. My glutes hurt thinking of being up there again without aiders.
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tradryan
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Aug 22, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
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Looks like a first try onsight flash to me :) Impressive! To say the least
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Aug 22, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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Congratulations to Emilie Pellerin!
Really inspirational!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Aug 23, 2018 - 06:05am PT
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Just wow on the on-sight of the Shadow. They let gurls climb this hard? Damn. Emilie must be floating on air during and after that lead. Congrats!
And, yeah, friggin' on-sight!
BAd
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2018 - 10:23am PT
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https://rockandice.com/videos/climbing/jesse-huey-on-the-shadow-5-13a-in-squamish/
There's generally a line to climb a decent 13a these days. I'd guess a climb like this sees numerous sends per season plus another few 1000 working laps from guys who just sent their first 12a a few weeks before. Suggesting this may be the second free in 30 yrs since Croft climbed it is vastly out of touch.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 23, 2018 - 10:49am PT
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unfortunately when you post an ascent and you are a woman you deal with no one looking at it the way you would send it if it was a man.
Thanks for sharing, looks hard as f*#k.
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domngo
climber
Canada
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Aug 23, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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This heavily creased porno-like spread in Mclane's previous comprehensive documentary work is probably the best I've seen in any guidebook ever.
Canada's pretty neat, eh?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 23, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
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Canadians punch above their weight as I see it.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 23, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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Skidoo . . .
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 23, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
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Suppose you had a climbing area where everyone agrees:
No one records a first ascent
No one records subsequent ascents
No climbs are rated
No route descriptions are written down.
No bolts, fixed gear, or chalk.
In other words, you come, you go, you may socialize, but you never discuss the specifics of any route you have done. The goal is that everyone wants to keep their climbs and all the routes as anonymous as possible, so that any new climber can experience the thrill of new discovery. I wonder what that would be like to have such a climbing culture?
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domngo
climber
Canada
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Aug 23, 2018 - 09:07pm PT
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aspen, all the polarizing talk south of our border seems to have gotten into your head a bit ;)
Heres a helpful diagram:
Again, kudos to all that are climbing more rock then slandering more talk. The gold standard for climbing is always honesty in my books....that or Reardons trip up RW
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 24, 2018 - 05:57am PT
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Congrats Emilie, great lead (that looks so F**ing difficult!) and that's a fantastic shot you posted showing your onsight. Who took the picture?
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 24, 2018 - 06:33am PT
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^ it would be like cavers, underground. They don't just tell anyone where the good caves are, because people will vandalize the crystals.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 24, 2018 - 11:11am PT
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From upthread JLP linked
https://rockandice.com/videos/climbing/jesse-huey-on-the-shadow-5-13a-in-squamish/
Thanks! The Wyde climbers amongst us should check it out. There are couple minutes of chicken wining and some of the "stemming" is super flared back-foot chimneying that I just love (ok, used to love) doing. Jesse Huey is engaging even if he left Arlington, WA for Colorado.
wrt all the flash ... terminology, if it's important to you, just make sure you scrutinize all ascents equally. Empellerin's ascent sounds totally effing awesome!!! In an area like Squamish or Yosemite, don't you all think that there is some amount of beta floating around in the air about a striking climb like that? Figuratively speaking. That would apply to Croft's ascent as well (it was nailed before he did the FFA, right?). But, as someone else said upthread, the gear list for that didn't look very cryptic. Personally I don't care much about beta. if you go up to a climb once, get up it without weighting the rope or gear: COOL. I love Emilie's account of being on the way to another climb and seeing a line and having to give it a go. I love it when that happened to me, and the sizing up of a climb and my abilities based on seeing it rather than what to guide book says.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 24, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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The first ascent of the University Wall back in 1966 by Tim Auger, Hamish Mutch, Dan Tate and Glenn Woodsworth was a pretty big deal given the relative isolation of the Squamish climbing scene and the fact these guys climbed the most obvious line on The Grand with a mere handful of bolts compared to the Baldwin Cooper route.
As an aid route it was a mandatory stepping stone for all of us back in the day and a worthy and memorable outing in it's own right with most of us enjoying a hammock bivi at the tree on our way.
Peter, Hamish and Greg's first free ascent of the U Wall via the three variations to Dance, Peter and Hamish's subsequent first continuous free ascent of the whole shebang with the Roman Chimneys and Peter's and Geoff's first try free ascent of the entire U Wall line without those variations as The Shadow a few years later all stand in their own respective right as unequivocal milestones in Squamish climbing history.
Alex Honnold's free solo via the "easier" variations is difficult to comprehend to anyone who's been up there and speaks to his esteem for the route.
I'd venture that Emilie's "on sight" ascent of The Shadow Corner is another important part of the U Wall's history and one she can be legitimately proud of.
It would be great to know if she kept the drive alive and on sighted the 12c arch pitch as well as this is an essential passage for the complete Shadow.
(Peter told me about a memorable thirty foot zoomer off this one on his and Geoff's ascent.)
It was rare and noteworthy to see anyone anywhere on The Grand in the late seventies, rare to see anyone trying to repeat the U Wall free in the early nineties and now, on any given dry summer day, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone free climbing the U Wall.
IMHO, The University Wall/Shadow is the finest route on the entire Chief massif no matter how you climb it; free, aid or mixed and I suspect most if not all of those who've climbed The U Wall share this sentiment.
I can't speak for Peter's opinion on all of this but can say that having known and climbed with him off and on since 1973, he's a person of great integrity and that honesty and the details of style matter very much to him.
In all of this discussion I'm left wondering if honesty about means and fair recognition for legitimate achievement are mutually exclusive?
Tim Auger passed away a few weeks ago and I look forward to joining old and new friends at our annual Psyche Ledge rendezvous on Sept. 15 to honour his memory and the wonderful example he set.
We'll probably share some U Wall experiences and stories.
PB
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Aug 24, 2018 - 01:48pm PT
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Thanks Greg.
Likewise!
PB
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 24, 2018 - 02:15pm PT
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But, as someone else said upthread, the gear list for that didn't look very cryptic. Nonsense. It's obvious you don't need a #4 Camalot, that is all. Can you tell a blue from a green alien from 140 ft, and how many? No, you really can't, and during an on-sight such mistakes add up to make or break - big time - especially for such a long pitch at such a high level. Do you carry 6 yellow, or 6 greens, or should it be nuts - oops, now you have no gear. To completely nail something like that during an on-sight - to the degree of having like 3-4 pcs of gear hanging from your harness with only about that many pieces left to place - SUPER unusual. If it's for real - super competent combined with a LOT of luck.
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Timmc
climber
BC
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Aug 24, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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Looks like Peter Pink Pointed the Shadow with all those pins in place.;)
Will miss the Psyche Ledge soirée unfortunately. Next year I hope.
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