US national policy issues looming after healthcare?

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NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 24, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
So much has been threatened so quickly, it's hard to stay on top of it all. Can other's chime in with handy links or more info on these and other stuff I've missed?

 H.R. 861 proposal to shut down the EPA! (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/861/text);

 Budget that will slash NIH funding by 20%, which will cause about 20% of the cancer research labs (and other human health based research) in universities across America to shut down, as their leaders look for alternate careers like community college lecturer. This stuff will NOT be picked up by pharmaceutical industry, because they just cherry-pick the stuff that is nearly profit-ready after a decade or more of government investment in basic research. More info:
https://genestogenomes.org/protest-budget-blueprint/
http://www.faseb.org/Science-Policy-and-Advocacy/Become-an-Advocate/Legislative-Action-Center.aspx


 Change in rules where fed lands can be given to states without accounting for the economic consequences (and the economic consequences are but a small fraction of the long term consequences for our national heritage). That was step 1 in the process of turning over lands to states that are more vulnerable to development interests

 Supreme court nominee... Elizabeth Warren is proposing that a consideration be postponed until after the FBI investigation into Trump and gang is concluded. Logic is that Republicans were fine waiting for a year with no supportable reason, and now the reason is that we can wait a little longer to avoid having a potential convict pick who we are stuck with for decades

 Trump tax transcripts and deeper audit to track down assets around the world, and laws to enforce disclosure and accountability for financial conflicts of interest

 What about all the vacant posts that Trump is not filling?

 FCC, net neutrality, and removal of consumer privacy protections where network providers can sell off every detail they can glean about you when you use the Internet, with no disclosure to you. Can be used by manipulative campaign software to alter election outcomes (such as was used by Cambridge Analytica to alter people's perceptions to get Trump into office).

 Building the wall?

 Immigration blockage based on nationality rather than based on attributes of the individuals? Designed to "stop terrorists" but it doesn't block a single country that gave us the 9/11 hijackers, where Trump has business interests in at least a few of those.

 Trump firing the person leading an investigation in New York that would delay potential discoveries of money laundering and other nefariousness

 What can Trump and gang really do to restore a high level of employment among under-educated people in regions of the country where businesses have no incentive to operate? Some places can get coal or oil jobs, but these have net negative long term consequences for our country, both environmentally and economically as we lag behind other countries in alternative energy development.

-How will Trump and gang deal with increasing unemployment caused by technology automation?







What else is on your radar?
F

climber
away from the ground
Mar 24, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
Sweet thread, bro.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
Getting rid of the Falsifier In Chief would be a good national policy issue to attend to.

But yes, the EPA is a Biggie.
Dept of State, USAID, Public Broadcasting, Planned Parenthood....
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
Stay up on the news and determine how you need to find the facts...

... as best suits you. It ain't easy...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 24, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
It's staggering the amount of protections that have been curtailed at the behest of industry and greed. Unprecedented. And the moron in the White House either doesn't know or doesn't care about the consequences, or even the why.

I can't wait to see what intelligent contributions that Jody makes to this thread.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 25, 2017 - 08:35pm PT

The massive increase in defense spending, especially on nukes.
jstan

climber
Mar 25, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
I would love to have been a fly on the wall to hear the conversation between Bill and Hillary following Donald's statement encouraging Putin to hack a US function. When a putative leader says something like this, who knows what some wing nut may do?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Mar 25, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 25, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
The massive increase in defense spending, especially on nukes

And a president who has opposed nuclear weapons all his life has wound up asking Congress to fund a new class of ballistic missile submarine, a new stealth bomber, upgrades to the current stock of nuclear weapons, a new cruise missile and billions of dollars of other programs.


from npr

So we are building a fleet of 12 ballistic missile subs, doomsday machines, to replace our cold war Ohio Class boats. Each sub carries 24 missiles. Each missile carries 8 to 12 independently targeted warheads. Thus one boat can deliver around 240 warheads that make Hiroshima look like a firecracker.

This has gone on during Obama's watch. These baby's come at the estimated price of $5B ea.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 26, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Kris
You're very correct about this. But Trump wants more.
And to think he's the guy with the football--now that's REALLY
scary!!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:07am PT
Why do we build 'em if we're not gonna use 'em?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Unlike Trumpcare , which was an incoherent set of policies with no constituency , nuclear weapons could serve a certain constituency with social benefits included..
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:40am PT
Want to talk about government waste? I worked on the B-2 bomber project designing composite tooling; I saw so much bullshit and waste I just shook my head and took my money. I could tell stories ...... The B-2 cost a cool $1,000,000,000 each - and that was for an airplane. Defense spending in this country is a joke and a welfare program for the 'defense' industry.

@ Jody. If ending the EPA gives you that nice tingly feeling then you're an idiot. The EPA was one of the best things to come from good old Nixon; you must be too young to remember the awful smog, leaded gasoline, sh#t dumped into rivers and lakes, acid rain, and etc. Sure, private industry will police themselves for the good of the country - not. Profit can't and shouldn't be the only motivator in life. Oddly enough, all these programs actually had reasons for their creation. Yes, some EPA regulations might be over the top, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is just stupid.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:46am PT
Shutting down the EPA would make me happier than repealing Obummercare.

I am praying for you. . . . . Again, sheesh!
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Mar 26, 2017 - 08:48am PT
Nobel laureate and former NIH Director Varmus explains how 45's proposed cuts would extinguish the US lead in biomedical research and innovation.

And of course the proposed cuts to NOAA, NSF, EPA etc. are even worse.

The GOP policy goal is — apparently — to make United States as a nation as stupid as the stupidest people in the GOP.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
Flaming rivers and smoggy sunsets make great postcards..
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Mar 26, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
^^^^

rj: someday i owe you a beer or four for all of the out loud laughs you've given me over the years...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 26, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
Nahoo...Thanks...send beer and hold the implant...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 26, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
Back to the nuke thing for a minute...

as-us-modernizes-nuclear-weapons-smaller-leaves-some-uneasy


"Gen. James E. Cartwright, a retired vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who was among Mr. Obama’s most influential nuclear strategists, said he backed the upgrades because precise targeting allowed the United States to hold fewer weapons. But “what going smaller does,” he acknowledged, “is to make the weapon more thinkable.”
As Mr. Obama enters his final year in office, the debate has deep implications for military strategy, federal spending and his legacy.
The B61 Model 12, the bomb flight-tested last year in Nevada, is the first of five new warhead types planned as part of an atomic revitalization estimated to cost up to $1 trillion over three decades. As a family, the weapons and their delivery systems move toward the small, the stealthy and the precise."


Edit: Meant to add that this trend when combined with a President who has stated he might use them is a bad situation.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 26, 2017 - 06:35pm PT

Not only that, Kris, but the price tag. We could buy a lot
of healthcare for that amount. . .
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 26, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
Let's see who knew what they were doing in running the country:


[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:00am PT
I don't really dig all the political name calling that sometimes accompanies these threads, but:

1) Some people (NutAgain) actually try to elevate the conversation and keep it focused on the issues at hand.

2) Political discourse has it's place, even on a climbers forum.

3) Let's face it, some of the issues facing our nation are more important than climbing.



Clip of the day: Ted Koppel tells Hannity that he's bad for America to his face because "You have attracted people who have determined that ideology is more important than facts."


Go Ted.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/03/27/ted-koppel-sean-hannity-cbs-sje-mobile-orig.cnn
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:23am PT
i HATE APPLE. INDEED I HATE THIS WORTHLESS LOUSY IDIOT Thing WHICH IS CALLED Ipad.

That wasn't the original post, but as it disappeared you got a frustrated screaming instead.
My apologies, but it's the plain truth.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
Biden would have been OK

But I lost all respect after I found out that he sold out to the Banksters and made it impossible for College loans to be subject to bankruptcy

Biden Backs Legislation Preventing $150 Billion of Student Loan Debt from being Discharged or Renegotiated

http://projectcensored.org/biden-backs-legislation-preventing-150-billion-student-loan-debt-discharged-renegotiated/


if your policies make people suffer, then they are not truly Christian.

Christian/Liberal policies REDUCE Suffering, not increase it
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:09pm PT

Commentator Tomi Lahren’s time is apparently over at TheBlaze, according to a new report from the New York Post’s “Page Six.”


Glenn Beck’s network suspended the 24-year-old Lahren’s show, “Tomi,” last week after she called anti-abortion conservatives “hypocrites.”


“I’m pro-choice,” Lahren said during an interview on “The View” earlier this month, “and here’s why: I can’t sit here and be a hypocrite and say I’m for limited government but I think that the government should decide what women should do with their bodies.”

so many hypocrites on the right
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
Don't like abortions
Don't have one

Case Closed

Unless you want to be a hypocrite and have the Government force people to comply with your selfish religious beliefs that Control What Women can and can't do.

In other words, make women suffer!
So it's not a Christian policy, it's a Big Government Right Wing Male Dominance Policy
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
Safe working conditions going into the toilet... why even bother with OSHA at this point if the government will still do big contracts with companies that cut corners to save money while injuring and killing employees?

http://thehill.com/regulation/325963-trump-repeals-blacklisting-rule

I wonder how the Trump supporters here fall (see what I did there?) on this issue. Say you work for a nation-wide window washing company that makes you rap in on 4mm cord. Heck, only 0.1% of the 10,000 workers in the company die each year, but they save $2M in materials. And they win the government contracts because they have the lowest price! Do you think that would be reasonable? Do you think our government has any responsibility toward its citizens in terms of hiring companies that follow the laws, that create safer working conditions for its employees?

Here is a real life example of the crappy company behavior that will be unleashed by this repealed regulation. Nothing to be happy about.
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2016/03/13059/safety-violations-billion-dollar-contractor-bae-systems-should-have-disclose
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
I've got a theory about the failed health care bill...

It's a mistake to underestimate Trump. What he just did was to get healthcare off the table.

My opinion is that Trump doesn't give two sh*ts about health care, and the last thing he wants is to spend the rest of his first term getting tied up in knots over how to replace the ACA. So he's willing to take a black eye (in the view of the public and the pundits) to get it out of his way.

All this talk about this being a rookie mistake is just that, talk. He's got two highly experienced Washington insiders on his flank: Ryan and Pence. Their bill was bound to fail, too far right for Democrat support and not radical enough to fly with the tea partiers. So, for all purposes, they tabled the healthcare subject for the foreseeable future.

If you don't think the guy can be shrewd, read up on how he won Wisconsin without setting a foot in the state. Talk about a sandbag...

But if he loses the Gorsuch nomination he'll be damaged badly. So the Democrats were originally going to be soft on the Gorsuch nomination, to keep their powder dry for the next one. But seeing the opportunity to cause serious damage they're changing their focus to the current battle. Trump is effectively gambling his success on getting Gorsuch through, and the battle is going to get bloody.

Just a thought...
c wilmot

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
Nutagain- the gov does not care about its own workers. They are on of biggest offenders in terms of employee abuse. You lose your workers comp claim? You appeal to the gov tou got injured working for. When I contacted them about my case- they only wanted to know how I had found their contact info.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
A perfect follow-up story to what we will get more of with the worker safety and government contractor issue:
Inside Alabama’s Auto Jobs Boom: Cheap Wages, Little Training, Crushed Limbs - Bloomberg
https://apple.news/A83SeIUsPT9Gq34T1klzcaQ


c_wilmot, do you think the solution is to give up on the concept of worker protections entirely, or to fix the places where the ideals of protecting workers are not met? When you hurt a finger at work, do you chop off a different one to spite the first one for making you feel pain?

P.s. Sorry you had to deal with a claim and even more sorry it was difficult to deal with against our own government
c wilmot

climber
Mar 27, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
I would say the gov should work on protecting its own employees first. Does the gov actually care about workers ? Not from the first hand experiences I have had. And that's at both the federal and state level.
When a worker died on a job site I was on OSHA came in and spent most of their time fining my uncle for minor violations related to painting rather than investigating the cause of the fatal accident - which had nothing to do with my uncles company. It was obvious they were there strictly for show- they didn't make anything or anyone safer. The worker who was the victim remained dead

I understand osha is important and it should stay - but we lead workers in to believe the gov can keep you safe or at least will protect you if injured on the job but that is just not the case.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:07pm PT
Trump's a fish out of water , a one trick pony.. He's pretending he's still in the private sector playing poker with other rich people's money.. The right wing nut jobs in congress just handed him his ass on Trumpcare.. More proof that corporate wanna be businessmen should avoid governing as a second career..
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
Trump's first major policy negotiation was a total failure. Trying to spin it any other way is just ..... Sad!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
so wilmot's uncle is the fed?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
3) Let's face it, some of the issues facing our nation are more important than climbing.

+1

Keep in mind that if trump gets his way and starts selling off public lands, the number of climbing locales will probably be reduced.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
rump's first major policy negotiation was a total failure. Trying to spin it any other way is just ..... Sad!

If you're referring to my remarks, I'm not trying to spin anything. My only point is that other than a "black eye," as I called it, the whole scenario plays to his hand unless he loses the Gorsuch fight.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 27, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Some Republicans that met in private with Trump over the GOP health care bill were shocked how ignorant he was about the provisions in the bill.. Guess they thought they were dealing with a brain surgeon...? Republcian voters who were interviewed said they hated Obamacare but loved the ACA..
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
The word "spin" implies support. Give me a break.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 27, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
Ksolem, not referring to anyone in particular, but his vaunted negotiation skills are a sham. He is a bully, and that won't fly in dysfunctional D.C.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 27, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
After five paragraphs of oozing praise, you're out of the closet

LOL, Clueless.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Mar 27, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
anybody who assumes their opponent is necessarily without strategy does themselves as much a disservice as assuming their opponent is necessarily playing six dimensional chess...

thanks for the thoughts Ksolem...

time, as always, will tell.



regardless... so far the dems [minus a few like Bernie, who is still out there being Bernie] and most of their supporters continue to get played like fiddles.

when the bow gets pulled, the strings sing a reactionary song.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 28, 2017 - 05:30am PT
You appeal to the gov you got injured working for. When I contacted them about my case- they only wanted to know how I had found their contact info.

Wait. After all this anti-guberment, fringe-right wailing it turns out you actually work for the guberment? F*#k me, that's just too damn rich and hilarious. Gotta love it when they're whining at the tit.
c wilmot

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 08:56am PT
Healyje - I used to work for the gov . And trust me- I gave way more than I got back. All with the ideal to help others enjoy the wilderness. Thanks for the appreciation
John M

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 10:07am PT
C wilmot, your problem is that you seem to believe that its government that is the problem, when in reality it is people who are the problem. It doesn't matter whether its private industry or government, and it doesn't matter whether its big or small institutions. The thing that they all have in common is people. Some people are decent and want to work hard and be fair, and others don't and aren't.

Both industry and government serve a purpose. Each form is better suited for certain kinds of purpose. Such as government is a better form for fire protection. In the days when fire protection was a private enterprise, many stories are told of fire departments fighting with each other over who puts out the fire, meanwhile the house or business burned down. So people joined together and made it part of a government service. Did that make it perfect? Of course not. Why? because people are not perfect. Some are corrupt and nasty, and some are decent and fair. And you will run into those same people in both government and private enterprise.

And by the way.. if you built trails in Yosemite, I hiked and ran many of those trials and always appreciated the work involved. So thanks.. I have many fond memories of Yosemite and met many nice people who worked there. A few as#@&%es too.. :-) not saying that you are the latter.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 28, 2017 - 10:24am PT
The Government is Not a Business and should never be run like one

The Government is a Charity and only a charity is in the business of giving money away.

The Charity can be corrupt and run only to help the 1% and the those that get the bribes (R)
or it can be socially responsible and run to help those in the most need, and to maintain a healthy middle class (D)
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:19pm PT

A charity? Thats really ridiculous even as a Democrat. Meanwhile as everyone engages in Worthless commentaries, the oil is rolling..

https://www.sott.net/article/346575-Energy-Transfer-Partners-announced-oil-placed-in-Dakota-Access-Pipeline-as-service-set-to-begin
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
The Government is Not a Business and should never be run like one

The government wastes billions because of that kind of thinking.

And Democrats govern out of altruism and don't take bribes either. Yep.
John M

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
Government can't create that.

sure they can. People create the culture.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
A charity? Thats really ridiculous even as a Democrat.

The primary reason for corporations to exist is to make a profit. I learned that in accounting and managerial finance classes. Whenever there is a conflict with regard to social policies or environment, etc... the first choice is to maximize shareholder value.


A government doesn't exist to make a profit. A government exists (hopefully) to provide a social and economic and legal framework for citizens to live harmoniously and pursue their happiness. In this sense, a government IS a charity- a non-profit organization- to collect revenues and deploy them for the common good. A minimalist construction of the common good is "a legal system to protect my property rights, roads to travel around, a protection from highway robbers, and defense from foreign invaders." A more inclusive definition of the common good includes a spectrum of services related to education, healthcare, and in the future world with automation requiring very few human workers, there will need to be some baseline method to provide a source of income to meet the baseline living expenses of every citizen (or just kill them all if they don't have jobs - take yer pick).

Many people get caught up on the fairness/rightness of wealth redistribution, taking my hard earned income and giving it to other slackers. People who subscribe to this don't realize how most of us will soon be in the category of "slackers" and the only ones with "hard earned income" will be those who own all the machines, and that pool of people will keep shrinking over time.

But the point remains, that while a government should be run with the efficiency and professionalism of a well-run business, it in fact exists for a purpose entirely different than a corporation intended to make a profit. This is fundamentally why it is unacceptable to close down government agencies and rely on private industry to perform those roles.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 28, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
The number one policy issue after healthcare is impeaching the despot for treason.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 28, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
^^ No! Leave the ineffectual goof in charge for the next few years. Pence is smart AND vicious. That bastard will set us back 50 years.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 28, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
he's reportedly moving on to tax code distillation after his success, bigly, with healthcare policy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 28, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
Biden Backs Legislation Preventing $150 Billion of Student Loan Debt from being Discharged or Renegotiated

Comrade Craig: It is awfully republican of you to not mention or link what was negotiated in return for this.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
My opinion is that Trump doesn't give two sh*ts about health care, and the last thing he wants is to spend the rest of his first term getting tied up in knots over how to replace the ACA.

So he's willing to take a black eye (in the view of the public and the pundits) to get it out of his way.

And yet, the front page of the NY Times today cites that re-negotiations on the health plan are already underway.......
WBraun

climber
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Such boring sh!t here.

You guys ever say anything that hasn't already been rehashed for days already all over the news.

OK, I got it!

Your answers are NO.

Yer all just parrots I see ........
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Mar 28, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Boring...? Let's talk about leather...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
Want to protect your Internet privacy in the face of failing government that neglects the protection of the citizenry?

Edit: This was a post about Tor and Onion Routing, but I posted prematurely before I realized how ignorant I was on the subject and what is the state of the art and status of government cracking... This spot reserved for an update when I figure out more. I'm checking out I2P and others now.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
Another voice echoing sentiments I've already shared here, saying what anyone with a spec of intelligence should realize:
http://fortune.com/2017/03/29/house-vote-internet-privacy-congress-legislation-online-regulation-protection/

No way a person can contort themselves into logical knots to construe this as making America great again. Not one person here will have their lives improved by this, and some are certain to lose career opportunities or insurance coverage in the future because of this, and it can and will be used to suppress political dissidents, to blackmail whistle-blowers, as well as more effectively manipulate all of us by what content we are exposed to.

I very purposefully tried to focus on policy issues in this thread rather than a popularity contest of people in office. The silly sports-team mindset that we have in America between Democrats and distracts our focus from the really important differences in policy perspectives, and the only way I see getting past the hoo-rah for each sides preferred team, is to focus on what is actually happening and how it screws or helps us. In the end that is what really makes a difference in our lives, aside from whatever illusory comforts we get from feeling like we are united in celebration of being on a "winning" team or united in grief being on the "losing" team. We are all one country and focusing on the teams will be the downfall of us all.

So keep a tally of which policies you think will make your life better, will make your friends and families' lives better, and what will be the consequences for our nation that ultimately have more long-term impacts for each of us personally.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 29, 2017 - 06:41pm PT

Well, the swamp hasn't been emptied yet, so I see no improvement
in my life.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 29, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
We are not one country. What would make you think we are? There's zero evidence. Sorry, but you need to make sure your team wins and get over that ideological silliness.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 29, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
NutAgain!, am looking forward to your analysis of Tor and I2P. I hadn't heard of the latter until now.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 08:55am PT
Maybe some of the Republican voters have finally put 2 + 2 together ( Trumpcare ) and figured out the clowns they elected are going to screw them in a yuge way..?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:06am PT

Are these the same polls that predicted the election of HRC by 87%.....?????


We have him for almost 4 more years ..... maybe even more.

get usta it.

but rest assured if Crooked Hilley had been elected, US californians would be getting the double pump..... one from Jerry and the other end from her.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Guyman... Or trump could wind up like Dicky Trick impeached and exiled to Kiev...? Not looking too well for the cheeto mobster holed up in a Floridian white house...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:42am PT
RJ..... All is going well.

Do really think like Maxine Watters?

Are you all hysterical about the Russian's??????

this is exactly as I wished it to be... lies and dysfunction from the Democrats and the Republicans .... If you recall correctly..... both parties hate Donald.

Maybe when the vast majority see exactly how these crooks work, both sides, they will wise up and push the extremists to the edges --fringe-- and some sensible folks will work together to maybe get some good done.

I only hope.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
We already no EPA is being gutted with specific plans to eliminate it entirely. So more poisoned air and water.

So it should be no surprise that consumer protections of the food we eat will be rolled back too. Amidst growing evidence that glyphosate causes major human health problems (Roundup weed killer from Monsanto- the reason they wanted to make genetically engineered plants so they can just blanket spray the stuff over all crops we eat), now we have the US Dept of Agriculture suspending tests for this poison:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/usda-drops-plan-to-test-for-monsanto-weed-killer-in_us_58d2db4ee4b062043ad4af84

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic have tested with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. Here are links to human health:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/


So while the USA is turning a blind eye to something that might be poisoning hundreds of millions of people in our country, here is what is happening in places that still embrace "facts":
http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/07/12/eu-member-states-support-restrictions-of-use-for-glyphosate-herbicides/#.V8BUJfl97IU

http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/08/26/italian-health-ministry-places-strict-restrictions-on-glyphosate-herbicide-use/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 1, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Guy...would you like that Roundup double latte with soy and honey..?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Apr 1, 2017 - 07:08pm PT

And it sounds like the Bureau of Livestock and Mining will be
OPEN FOR BIDNESS again. . .
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 1, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Crankster is right. We've descended (or, more accurately, the Republicans) into tribalism where people will abandon all rational thought and vote for something against their own best interest solely to punish the other tribe. It is evident to the everyone but the Republicans (and even some of them grudgingly admit it nonetheless) that Trump is an absolute trainwreck, yet we continue to hear glee from the right that all is well, solely because the left is so angry about it. Maybe we should give teenagers the right to vote. Much of the right displays the same level of maturity.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 2, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Nut..... buy products that are certified to not contain sh#t you don't like.....

DMT..... so what "polls" do you look at??? I would like to know. In the news and your statement it is always.... just "polls"

Fat.... change your statement to "Pepublicans and Democrats" and I would pretty much agree with you...... except the teenagers part -- why give more non-tax paying citizens the right to vote?


Face it.... these children in our Government- both sides- are only interested in their PARTYS own shallow bull sh#t.

Not what is best for all of us.

Fight on, boys.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 2, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Nut..... buy products that are certified to not contain sh#t you don't like.....

Might as well, because the regulatory bodies that exist to enforce that the certification is real and accurate, just got gutted so as to be non-functional......

Better hire your own inspectors to check the cleanliness of meat, the integrity of airplanes, etc.

Of course, if they are found deficient, you can only walk away, because YOUR inspector has no enforcement mechanisms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 2, 2017 - 11:36am PT
This will inject Darwinism back into the illiteracy issue as well as
bring back Victory Gardens!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 2, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
Thnx again to Nutagain, for trying.
I don't know my bible readings but the on most suitable has to do with seeds landing on un fertile ground.
The way that so many are still blind to the fall of the republic and the mis appropriation of hard won freedoms , yet to be taken, but that allow another foreign power to take control of 1/2the planet , fits to a tee.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 2, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
How's the "Ain't Russia great?" crap working out for comrade Drumpf so far?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
Channeling my inner MadBolter with the wall of text.

This article on hi-tech worker immigration gets the story pretty darn right. It might be one of the first areas of the Trump agenda where I agree his intention is going in the right direction (fingers crossed that they won't totally screw it up and throw out the baby with the bath water though):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/04/03/this-one-group-gets-70-percent-of-high-skilled-foreign-worker-visas/?utm_term=.66c81f034084

I have direct personal experience with this issue from multiple perspectives:
 as a spouse of an H1-B worker from India
 as a person whose coworkers and most friends followed the template of bachelors degree in engineering in India, F-1 visa for computer science masters degree in USA, then H1B visa at a company where they were stuck until they got a green card. These folks are in a different eschelon than the ones brought straight from India for hourly consulting work.
 as the owner of a small tech recruiting company in silicon valley in the late 90s and again a few years after the dotcom crash, competing against companies with H1B candidates willing to work for much less than my candidates
 as a hiring person in a big companies interviewing these candidates
 as a contractor getting called by these companies offering me jobs at pennies on the dollar for what I was getting on my own.


One thing that is very true that many people don't understand... there are tons of people looking for jobs but also tons of jobs that go unfilled because there just aren't enough qualified candidates. Many jobs need more than a warm body to fill a chair. About 13 years ago at Webex, my team had the HR department sit with us in interviews because they thought we were doing something wrong to reject everyone for 6 months. They believed us when they saw in person what we needed and that the candidates weren't good enough. It retrospect, it may have been in part because we got bottom-of-the-barrel candidates because of lower advertised salary range. It was the lowest I got paid at any point in my career relative to my skills and experience, but I took it because of melting down marriage and related circumstances. But in some fields, it's just plain hard to find qualified people. And if you cut off the H1B options, it can become impossible. So the H1B program is really truly needed.

On the other hand, the system is terribly exploited and used to depress the wages that American workers can receive, and it might cause some firms to decline a qualified American worker because they'd rather have a slightly less qualified person who can't quit. This dynamic alters the supply and demand equation and might make it seem like there are less qualified workers than there really are, creating a self-reinforcing theme of not enough qualified workers in America so need more foreign workers, but it's really just not enough workers willing to do that job at the market price given the present of H1B candidates. It really can be a type of hi-tech slavery. I was aware of a variety of folks stuck in the situation, and a variety of companies doing it to their workers, that would get H1B candidates over here and stack them up in shared housing, shared bedrooms, and not pay them unless they were out billing with a customer. The people can't legally change jobs unless they find another company willing to sponsor them, or they have to go back where they came from. But they are accustomed to more financial hardship in India so they tolerate it. The culture in India used to be (might be changing now with more exchange with USA) extremely hierarchical where employees are subservient to their bosses and put up with whatever crap they have to.


But our government is part of the problem in a few ways:
1. Not taking a leadership role in sufficiently promoting education as a vitally important value to make America great again. So we don't generate enough qualified applicants to fill our own jobs. We need to hire foreign workers to keep our nation from imploding. The job I got in silicon valley after college used skills that were not taught at the time I was going to college, so our education system lagged behind what the market needed.

2. The H1B visa process is onerous, and the system naturally favors big parasite middle-man companies that can afford to pre-pay thousands for applications and sit on them for many months.

3. Our government should have a process that individuals can figure out how to submit the required forms and get them turned around more quickly, without needing to hire a lawyer. That means bigger government staff to process the applications for fast turn-around while still enabling whatever security/validation checks they do.

4. Our government should champion reforms in the financial and banking industries to counteract the ruthless pursuit of profit as the only reason for companies to exist. Companies are focused on earnings per share, and this comes at the expense of investment in people like companies used to do. Companies used to hire smart people from college, train them in whatever was the latest stuff that was needed (which increased the value of the employee), and then both parties would benefit from the arrangement. Now people have to pay for their own training certifications to get a contract job where a middle-man company rapes half of the pay, and smart people graduating from college without specific skills that the company needs have a harder time getting hired.


Some aspects of this that no government can't fix... for every high-tech job, there is a huge market pay range that has little to do with actual skill or merit and more to do with negotiations, power, information, timing, ability to walk away from the transaction. It would be a disaster to have government try to regulate fixed payscales for every job classification. It would cause more unemployment as people with high skills found more creative ways to get paid better and refused to take the low payscale jobs. A company is always going to prefer to pay someone less for the same job if they can get it done, so there is no clean way to keep the H1B process for when you really can't find a person, versus when you just want a cheaper person.


There might be many people unemployed or underemployed or taking extended time off because they are not willing to work for the low level of pay they can earn at depressed market rates. Killing off the middle-man companies using H1B workers would go a long way to balance things, to still enable hiring companies to use the H1B system to supplement American workers, but they would be forced to hire more American workers for more money if it was less easy to get the H1B workes.

It is a delicate balance and I don't know where to draw the line, but stopping H1B visas for companies that only provide consulting services to other companies would go a long way.

Just please don't kill the H1B program! That would be like killing our national healthcare system because parasitic middle-man companies are exploiting it for great profit... oh wait.

Edit: ok, enough venting for the day, I need a self-imposed exile for the rest of the day to get stuff done.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 3, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
Nut, you have to ask yourself, what IS Trump's intention?

Not what he says, but what he actually wants.

I believe that his intention is to bolster the advantages that large employers have abusing these visas. Expect the program to be expanded, or at the least, left alone with all it's problems that you cite.
c wilmot

climber
Apr 3, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Not qualified or jobs that Americans are no longer willing to do?

Personally I was hoping the h1b Visa program was massively expanded. That way the people who have been unaffected by illegals would start to understand why the lower class has been upset.
If you think competing against foreign workers being paid legal wages is unfair- just think of what competing against foreign workers being paid illegal wages is like
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 3, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/politics/who-is-clint-watts/index.html

Q: who is he?
A: the next target of alt faux breitfart birther swiftboat media.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 4, 2017 - 09:46am PT
This 4 part Story from the LA Times is a great read


Our Dishonest President

Part I
Our Dishonest President

Part II
Why Trump Lies

Part III
Trump's Authoritarian Vision

Part IV
Wednesday

By The Times Editorial Board

April 2, 2017
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-our-dishonest-president/

It was no secret during the campaign that Donald Trump was a narcissist and a demagogue who used fear and dishonesty to appeal to the worst in American voters. The Times called him unprepared and unsuited for the job he was seeking, and said his election would be a “catastrophe.”

Still, nothing prepared us for the magnitude of this train wreck. Like millions of other Americans, we clung to a slim hope that the new president would turn out to be all noise and bluster, or that the people around him in the White House would act as a check on his worst instincts, or that he would be sobered and transformed by the awesome responsibilities of office.

Instead, seventy-some days in — and with about 1,400 to go before his term is completed — it is increasingly clear that those hopes were misplaced.

In a matter of weeks, President Trump has taken dozens of real-life steps that, if they are not reversed, will rip families apart, foul rivers and pollute the air, intensify the calamitous effects of climate change and profoundly weaken the system of American public education for all.

His attempt to de-insure millions of people who had finally received healthcare coverage and, along the way, enact a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich has been put on hold for the moment. But he is proceeding with his efforts to defang the government’s regulatory agencies and bloat the Pentagon’s budget even as he supposedly retreats from the global stage.

read more at link
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Apr 4, 2017 - 09:51am PT
Norton

Social climber
Apr 4, 2017 - 10:13am PT
now name all the Repubs not supporting universal healthcare....

easy, right?

how many Repubs in the House and Senate?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 4, 2017 - 11:34am PT
When we talk about healthcare, it is difficult to envision how it can be done for the whole population.

How is it possible?

It has been posted before, but this film gives the examples of 5 different ways that it is actually done in different countries, and a flavor of how it works. Frontline does it's usual great job. (and all 5 are a LOT cheaper, and provides better average care than the US:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/sickaroundtheworld/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 18, 2017 - 11:06am PT
WaPost:

Atom-smashing scientists are unnerved by harsh Trump budget


The president wants the federal government to spend less on science and medicine, saying the cuts would encourage private-sector investment. Researchers at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, however, say the U.S. needs federal science dollars to compete with China.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2017 - 11:20am PT
I'm curious to understand the perspective of small-government folks when it comes to science. Do you believe that government has a role in advancing human knowledge in areas where there is no short-term payoff to encourage business investment? Do you recognize that things we depend on in our daily lives would never have been invented by private industry because it took too long and didn't have a clear profit waiting at that end?

Where do you draw the line in government funding for molecular biology and genetics (cancer research), other types of medical research, energy storage systems, alternative energy production methods, etc.

There is an argument based on improving our health and longevity, and an argument in terms of global economic competition and promoting jobs in our country.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2017 - 11:45am PT
c_wilmot, I didn't reply yet to your other point about H1B job situation and how that is a parallel to the outsourcing of blue-collar jobs to other countries. These are two processes with the same dynamics- companies increasing profits by taking people from impoverished places with lower quality of life and using them to replace labor in places where people have become fat, dumb, happy, and entitled.

I agree you have a solid point. I honestly don't have a clear response... on the one hand, I think it would be a more just and fair world to give everyone a level merit-based playing field. The most obvious and immediate impact of that would be bringing the USA workers down to the level of less fortunate workers in other places.

In the bigger picture, this points to the fundamental failure of the notion of "countries" in our modern world. Or maybe more precisely, it highlights how individual nations exercising sovereignty over worker-rights rules facilitates the divide between rich and poor in every country. If we want to stand on a moral high ground of human rights and baseline entitlements, it needs to be on a global rather than a national basis. As long as we have strong national governments that protect national interests, there are going to be winner and loser countries, and companies will exist to exploit the discrepancies between worker conditions in different countries.

It is a daunting problem to solve because of global cultural differences and managing population growth vs local resource availability, access to medicine, etc. But nation-specific battles for worker rights are doomed to fail if the global human condition is not addressed.


In hindsight I think I was wrong to stand against TPP. It's sort of like healthcare- the end goal is so complicated to reach because of the different stakeholders, that locking in any progress toward that ideal objective is a big strategic win, and it can be built upon over time. I think Obamacare was a good thing because of this, even with the poisoned addition of maintaining private insurance middle-men. I rejected the TPP because it provided a mechanism for companies to legally stand in the way of environmental protections, but in the bigger picture, maybe it was a compromise worthwhile to lock in a set of worker rights conditions and to help create a more level playing field around the world that could be slowly tightened over time like a boa constrictor squeezing out economic and environmental exploitation.

So at least two things I disagree with Bernie Sanders about- raising minimum wage with our present set of global circumstances, and blocking TPP. In a way our politicians face the same problem that publicly traded companies do- they are held accountable for short-term results rather than making hard strategic decisions that help us in the long run. In the end, it is the fault of the voting public for not seeing the bigger longer term picture. But then again, maybe that is my rich white boy perspective that I can afford to have because I'm not worried about paying the rent next month or keeping my utilities from getting disconnected.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
OK gang, here is a scary one on the crime and domestic terrorism front:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/dhs-chief-kelly-don-stop-homegrown-terrorists-article-1.3091534

To me, it is a sign of a bad political appointment when the person publicly whines that they can't do the job after they have started it. This reflects poorly on Trump, on his limited political capital and leadership skills to attract qualified people to fill the posts in his administration.

As for the DHS Chief, it shows a grave lack of public leadership. I would expect him to be humble and honest about what he doesn't know and work in private through different agencies to form relationships, solicit ideas, and develop a plan. But to just publicly come out and say "hey we're clueless" is like throwing lighter fuel on the fire. This just scares the American public and emboldens criminals who are planning attacks. Just plain stupid and immature and clearly in a position that he is not up to the task of performing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 23, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
So at least two things I disagree with Bernie Sanders about- raising minimum wage with our present set of global circumstances, and blocking TPP.

Another BIG issue with TPP and similar treaties, is the effect that such things have on global stability and anti-war tendencies.

It's a big deal to come into armed conflict with your trading partners. Generally, bad for business.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:31am PT
Raising the Minimum wage is what's called a Jobs Program

Once people have more money in their pockets, they buy more goods locally,
this creates demand, and demand creates jobs
This has been proven over and over, just look at the research on it

Giving the rich more tax cuts is a Jobs Killer Program
The rich don't spend enough money to create demand, the Country's tax revenue goes down, the Gov. has to shut down programs for the people, people lose jobs and a recession ensues

Rich People do not create jobs
Businesses create jobs only when demand is increased

Another mostly forgotten fact
Historically, the wages are always higher when taxes are high
Wages go down as taxes go down.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Hey NutAgain, I saw that this weekend and agree but I don't think the cash cow in domestic can compare foreign 'defense'. I doubt he has even looked into based on that. That is how this new admin rolls, it isn't about services, protection etc., it is about profit and well, we know how good Trump is when it comes to that. Bankruptcies and little stuff like that comes to mind.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:52pm PT
OK gang, here is a scary one on the crime and domestic terrorism front:

I'm certainly not advocating this is the case, but there is another interpretation.

It could be that they DO have a clue, and are comprehensive and intensive in their technology and approach. But, they need the bad guys to become overconfident, and do sloppy things that they might not, if they thought they were confronting the NSA and CIA.

I know of situations where that was the case.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 12:04am PT
Woman arrested for laughing during Jeff Sessions' confirmation hearing heads to trial

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/2/1658198/-Woman-arrested-for-laughing-during-Jeff-Sessions-confirmation-hearing-heads-to-trial
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 12:05am PT
Another issue of false honor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_of_Blood_(monument);

The River of Blood monument marks a fictional site of the American Civil War, on a golf course owned by Donald Trump.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 3, 2017 - 09:28am PT
I understand the swell of silly repeatedly similar threads but this one and the page linked had some very sound insight

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2902854&tn=1620

Impeach, the idiot
indict, All the Guilty
Convict! All of Them of the treasonous activities,
Failure to up-hold the oath of office and the disregard for the Laws that govern disclosure.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
This wasn't on my radar...
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/331830-trump-to-ease-rules-on-church-political-activity-report

This change to allow religious institutions to more explicitly influence politics (beyond the realm of their present followers), so they can pay for the commercials that drum up popular outrage against our public schools, so more kids switch to the new charter religious schools. Finally, a way to shape impressionable minds and bolster membership without requiring their parents to show up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 3, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
My Fresno friends: lets organize to end this?



An Ancient Bloodsport in Modern California
By MIKE MCPHATE


In cockfighting, roosters battle to the death. The fights, banned in California sine 1905, have occured mostly in the Central Valley and along the border with Mexico.

In cockfighting, roosters battle to the death. The fights, banned in California sine 1905, have occured mostly in the Central Valley and along the border with Mexico. Alexandre Meneghini/Reuters
Good morning.

In a secluded barn just west of Fresno, the evidence of killing was everywhere — a weight scale, a blood-spattered wall, a wooden fighting ring and dozens of mutilated, dead roosters.
When sheriff’s deputies arrived a couple weeks ago, roughly 100 people scattered, driving off or running through nearby fields.
The deputies arrested four men, charging them in connection with an illegal cockfighting ring.

Cockfighting, an ancient bloodsport, pits roosters against one another in gladiatorlike combat to the death. It’s been banned in California since 1905.

Yet many locations, concentrated heavily in the Central Valley, still raise roosters for fighting, said Eric Sakach, a senior law enforcement specialist for the Humane Society.

Since late last year, news reports have provided accounts of cockfighting operations in Corcoran, East Palo Alto, Santa Maria and Fontana.

The southern border area is another hot spot, in part because of its proximity to Mexico, where cockfighting is allowed. In 2007, the authorities in San Diego’s Otay Mesa, a community along the border, seized more than 5,000 roosters in what was called the country’s largest cockfighting raid.

California has been a destination for cockfighting because it usually regards participation as a misdemeanor, unlike neighboring states that impose felony charges, said Mr. Sakach.

The secretive events are advertised by word of mouth, with codes words sometimes assigned to gain entry. The rooster owners contribute to a purse that can grow to $15,000 or more.

Spectators drink beer and place side bets as the roosters peck and claw each other to the death, aided by blades affixed to their legs. Losers are tossed into a garbage can.

Californians enjoy a number of legal ways to gamble, casinos and horse tracks for example, that don’t involve the possibility of arrest. Why cockfighting?

Mr. Sakach attended cockfights as an undercover investigator. He suggested there was an “adrenaline rush” that came with breaking the law.
But the allure also speaks to a more primal instinct, he said.
“The gambling is a huge factor,” he said. “But the bottom line is the entertainment value of watching two animals slice or stab each other to death is a driver.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 11:47am PT
By Ezekiel Emanuel May 5 at 7:51 PM

Ezekiel Emanuel is chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania.

The Republicans’ health bill is an act of supreme hypocrisy and insensitivity to the experience of Americans. It will damage — not improve — the U.S. health system.





Obamacare was a failure because it passed with only Democratic votes — so charged Republicans. All through 2009, Democrats tried to get Republicans to engage in discussions about health-care reform. Remember the “Gang of Six” or the “Gang of Eight” that Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) ran to try to craft a bipartisan bill? After Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) voted for the bill in committee, she reversed herself under extreme Republican pressure. Now, given their own opportunity for a bipartisan health reform bill, Republicans passed a totally partisan bill, and they never even tried reaching out to Democrats to see if there could be consensus.



Democrats are giving insurance companies bailouts — so charged Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.). The Affordable Care Act contained risk corridors, which were a way to spread the risk across insurers when the exchanges just started and no one knew who would buy insurance. In 2014, Republicans voted to block funding for these risk corridors — a main reason that premiums on the exchanges went up so much in 2016 and 2017. Now, in their own bill, Republicans have included tens of billions of dollars for insurance companies. A bailout? No, Republicans re-labeled this a “stability fund.”


Republicans promised they would never allow insurance companies to discriminate against people with preexisting conditions. Well, so much for that. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan’s (R-Wis.) bill allows states to grant companies the ability to charge exorbitant fees to people with preexisting diseases. The Republican claim that no state will pass such bills is ridiculous. Why have the option then? More important, we know states have done much worse in the past. Remember Arizona denying bone-marrow transplants to patients with curable cancer on Medicaid? Who would have thought that could happen?

And those high-risk pools Republicans claim will protect people with preexisting conditions? They don’t work. Even with Rep. Fred Upton’s (R-Mich.) amendment offering an extra $8 billion to the stability fund, the pools would be totally underfunded. Just do the math. Insuring patients with serious illnesses will cost about $10,000 each (a conservative estimate), so Upton’s money covers fewer than 200,000 Americans. Not even a modest fig leaf.

Other Republican axioms: Obamacare is collapsing; the exchanges are dying; premiums are skyrocketing; and a third of counties have only one insurer. Let’s put aside that the Congressional Budget Office and Standard & Poor’s concluded that the exchanges are stable. Let’s put aside that Anthem just announced it is doing well in the exchanges. If they wobble, it is the Republicans’ doing.

A few fixes would enhance the exchanges’ functioning: 1) Enforce the mandate so more healthy Americans buy in the exchanges; 2) guarantee funding for subsidies to consumers so insurance companies can lower premiums; 3) fund the risk corridors and reinsurance payments; and 4) increase targeted advertising so more people know about the subsidies and the requirement to get insurance.

Republicans passed exactly one fix: The stability fund does provide some reinsurance help. But that’s the only thing their bill does to help fix the system. Republicans are undermining and not enforcing the mandate. Republicans decided not to appropriate money for subsidies. And Republicans have severely limited advertising.

This bill will make things worse. It will not improve the number of insured; estimates show that the bill will force tens of millions of Americans to lose coverage.

This bill will increase costs. Cutting essential benefits means people must pay for those uncovered services — whether that’s maternity care, mental-health care or dental care for children. With more uninsured people, hospitals will increase what they charge to cover the uncompensated care they give, driving up premiums. And there is no provision to reduce deductibles.

Most important, this bill has no serious cost control ideas in it. No change in how doctors and hospitals are paid to improve quality and lower costs. No measures to reduce drug prices. No attempts to lower Medicare costs through site-neutral payments — that is, paying the same price regardless of where a procedure is performed — or to prevent hospitals from buying up physician practices to increase their bargaining power and raise their costs.


Republicans promise cost control later, in future legislation. But any additional health-care legislation will require support from Democrats in the Senate. After this hyper-partisan bill, there is no chance a single Democrat will collaborate before the next election.

Desiring to do something, Republicans have only shown hypocrisy and callousness. As polls suggest, they won’t have to wait long to see the repercussions of their actions — only until 2018.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Trump Spurns Congress as He Signals Medical Marijuana Fight
Bloomberg

by Toluse Olorunnipa




President Donald Trump signaled he may ignore a congressional ban on interfering with state medical marijuana laws, arguing in a lengthy statement that he isn’t legally bound by a series of limits lawmakers imposed on him.

Trump issued the “signing statement” Friday after he signed a measure funding the government for the remainder of the federal fiscal year, reprising a controversial tactic former presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama used while in office.

Trump also suggested he may ignore gender and racial preferences in some government programs as well as congressional requirements for advance notice before taking a range of foreign policy and military actions.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions has vowed to crack down on marijuana and has dismissed arguments for its medical use as “desperate.”

“I reject the idea that we’re going to be better placed if we have more marijuana,” Sessions said in a speech to law-enforcement officials in March. “It’s not a healthy substance, particularly for young people.”

Twenty-nine states and the District of Columbia, Guam and Puerto Rico now allow for medical marijuana use, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Trump argued in the statement that his constitutional prerogatives supersede the restrictions Congress placed on him as a condition for funding government operations.

Power Struggle

Steve Bell, a senior adviser at the Bipartisan Policy Center in Washington, said Trump’s signing statement signaled a desire to usurp power from the legislative branch.

“It is the constitutional prerogative of the Congress to spend money and to put limitations on spending,” Bell, a former staff director of the Senate Budget Committee and an aide to former Republican Senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico, said by phone. “This is an extremely broad assertion of executive branch power over the purse.”

In the signing statement, Trump singled out a provision in the spending bill that says funds cannot be used to block states from implementing medical marijuana laws.

“I will treat this provision consistently with my constitutional responsibility to take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” he said.

Making a Statement

Obama also occasionally released signing statements objecting to congressional restrictions on his authority. The White House didn’t respond to requests for comment Friday on whether Trump plans to abide by the congressional restrictions.

Bell said Trump’s stance on the medical marijuana provision in the bill was at odds with the 10th Amendment, which protects states from federal overreach.

Tim Shaw, a senior policy analyst at the Bipartisan Policy Center, said that the president is bound by the language in the spending bill that now bears his signature.

“Part of the argument here in this signing statement is that he has the constitutional requirement to execute the law,” Shaw said in an interview. “But this is one of those laws, and Congress has the ultimate authority over funds getting spent.’’

jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 6, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
Colorado just passed a law that would immediately convert all aspects of the industry to "Medical Marijuana" should the feds begin enforcement against recreational use.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 6, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
I suppose Healthcare will be looming after Healthcare..... unless the presidency and all the carp that came with it is deemed illegitimate, and the clock reset to Monday, November 7th, 2016.

If you follow @LouiseMensch on Twitter, the shoe's, or at least the warrants, are about to drop. Her pinned tweet links to the blog I assume she writes, with headline: "At least six #FISA warrants granted in #TrumpRussia cases"

Though there's nothing to back it up....it should be noted that this woman has been the backbone of pretty much ALL the outing of the Trump/Russia shenanigans. And, she has been shown to be right.

Lets just hope they get that server out of Trump Tower before it burns to the ground in a terrible and unforeseen catastrophe.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
During a “Fox & Friends” interview this morning, Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price said it’s only natural that people who are sicker and riskier have to pay more for health insurance -- that's "pricing for what an individual's health status is."
**
Price revealed Republican thinking. In a “free market” for health care, the older and sicker would be charged higher insurance premiums** because they’re more likely to cost more, and the younger and healthier would be charged less because they’re likely to cost less.

Which is why a civilized society doesn’t rely on the free market for determining the price of health insurance.

Ah, the reasoning why the good citizens of Colo will push to make older Americans with medical problems pay a lot more than others. Particularly those with back, knee, and ankle problems, because they are THEIR FAULT for pursuing a more active and riskier lifestyle.

when they finish with medicaid and the private insurance market, they will turn their eyes onto Medicare, where the REAL money is!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Colorado just passed a law that would immediately convert all aspects of the industry to "Medical Marijuana" should the feds begin enforcement against recreational use.


Tsk, Tsk. It is not nice to go against the Federal Gov't that you voted in. That will make them mad, and get them to start withholding federal funds from such states.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
Even in Idaho, folks understand the fuking that the U.S. House of Representatives just gave us on healthcare.

Idaho's very conservative Raul Labrador keeps getting elected, despite his backgroun as a Latino Immigration law lawyer, since he is also LDS & very conservative. He works for the Koch brothers & other conservative big-money donors, not the people of Idaho.

However, he did a great job of placing his foot in his mouth during heated questioning at a community forum this week in Lewiston.

Rep. Raul Labrador (R-Idaho) came under fire Friday after he said that "nobody dies" from a lack of health care coverage at a town hall at Lewis-Clark State College in Lewiston, Idaho.

Labrador made the remarks the day after the House passed a Republican-sponsored health care bill that, if passed, would repeal and replace significant parts of Obamacare. The Congressman, a member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, was replying to an audience member who was speaking on concerns about the bill's potential impact on Medicaid recipients.


"You are mandating people on Medicaid accept dying. You are making a mandate that will kill people," the audience member said, before Labrador interjected.

"No one wants anybody to die," Labrador said. "You know, that line is so indefensible. Nobody dies because they don't have access to health care."

His comments prompted an immediate outcry from audience members, who began to audibly boo, according to clips shared on social media.

The quote & the video went "viral" on the internet, but as we all know, being stupid doesn't mean you can't be "one of the best U.S. Congressmen, that money can buy!"
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 6, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Tsk, Tsk. It is not nice to go against the Federal Gov't that you voted in


You are soooo unobservant, Ken. Colorado held its nose and voted for HRC.


She'll be baaack . . .
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 6, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
unobservant and racist to boot...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Here is how Trump/co loots the country:


In a Beijing ballroom, Kushner’s sister flogs a $500,000 ‘investor visa’ to the wealthy Chinese

Chinese citizens were urged to invest in a New Jersey real estate project for a chance to immigrate to the United States. But President Trump’s vow to crack down on immigration, as well as criticism from members of Congress, has led to questions about the future of a program known in China as the “golden visa.”

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
You are soooo unobservant, Ken. Colorado held its nose and voted for HRC.

I wasn't referring to the State, but the slime-dwelling citizens who voted for the guy who is going to massively screw them.

You wonder how those people are going to be treated by the "average citizen"

Oh, they can shovel coal.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 6, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
Re Idaho Rep. Raul Labrador's stupid & evil statement:

Nobody dies because they don't have access to health care


A 2009 study published by the American Journal of Public Health before Obamacare became law said 45,000 people die annually from lack of health insurance.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-rep-nobody-dies-from-not-having-health-care/ar-BBAOBDw?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1



The "Evil Empire" of Trump Conservatives is now rolling back any rights to decent healthcare that Obamacare mandated. This is all good, if you are rich & want to avoid taxes to support the poor.

From FORBES MAGAZINE: (which most here might consider a: conservative right-wing, rich-folks magazine.)

Obamacare Repeal Results In Tax Cuts For The Rich; Tax Increases And Lost Insurance For The Rest

The biggest revenue raiser in Obamacare is the net investment income tax, which levies an additional 3.8% surtax on interest, dividend, rent, royalty and passive business income of high-income taxpayers; those earning more than $250,000 (if married, $200,000 if single). Thus, once again, the tax impacts only the wealthiest 2% of Americans.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2016/12/15/obamacare-repeal-results-in-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-tax-increases-and-lost-insurance-for-the-rest/#512505884cdf
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 6, 2017 - 11:04pm PT
Guardian of UK.

Here's what the good citizen supporters of the GOP in Colo and elsewhere support for our country:



Texas adoption agencies could reject Jewish, Muslim, gay or single parents

Republican sponsors of bill set to be debated in state legislature next week say it supports the religious freedom of adoption agencies and foster care providers

I particularly like that an "agency" can worship a religion. I guess an agency is people, too.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 7, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
Woohoo! The Trump-clone/clown lost badly in France's presidential election.

Macron wins French presidency, to sighs of relief in Europe. With virtually all votes counted, Macron had topped 66 percent against just under 34 percent for Le Pen - a gap wider than the 20 or so percentage points that pre-election surveys had suggested


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN183003


Wooohooo Frogs!
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 7, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
I wasn't referring to the State, but the slime-dwelling citizens who voted for the guy . . .


Oh yeah, the Deplorables and their staunch comrades the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK. Fear the Walking Dead.

Better run back to your yacht club, Commodore, and hunker down amongst your peers. Safety in numbers. Maybe you can ask HRC to speak at your annual regatta.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
May 7, 2017 - 10:23pm PT
If there's one thing about the US presidential election in 2020 that seems a safe bet, it's that for the first time since 1976 (!!), neither a Bush nor a Clinton will be a candidate. (2012 doesn't count.) Thank heavens!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:19am PT
EPA dismisses half of its scientific advisers on key board, citing ‘clean break’ with Obama administration

The move could significantly change the makeup of the 18-member Board of Scientific Counselors, which advises the EPA’s key scientific arm on whether the research it does has sufficient rigor and integrity.

"A spokesman for the E.P.A. administrator, Scott Pruitt, said he would consider replacing the academic scientists with representatives from industries whose pollution the agency is supposed to regulate, as part of the wide net it plans to cast."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:19am PT
35 of 37 economists said Trump was wrong. The other two misread the question.

President Trump's administration says his tax cut will pay for itself. It turns out it's really hard to find an economist who agrees.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 08:20am PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Oh yeah, the Deplorables and their staunch comrades the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK. Fear the Walking Dead.

Oh, it's good that you know your brothers, the people you choose to associate with!


Better run back to your yacht club, Commodore, and hunker down amongst your peers. Safety in numbers. Maybe you can ask HRC to speak at your annual regatta.

Well, I can't run anymore, but I do like my fellow members of my co-op, designed to permit low cost sailing to the community. Rather than sit up in your mountains, you might come down sometime, and assist in the sailing programs that we run for disadvantaged youth. (in conjunction with the Sheriff---I know you celebrate everytime a cop is killed, but most of them are good people, you ought to try meeting some in a setting other than when you are stumbling drunk)
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
Paul Krugman States the Obvious Once Again: Republicans Are Lying

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/8/1660003/-Paul-Krugman-States-the-Obvious-Once-Again-Republicans-Are-Lying


There have been many bad laws in U.S. history. Some bills were poorly conceived; some were cruel and unjust; some were sold on false pretenses. Some were all of the above.

But has there ever been anything like Trumpcare, the health legislation Republicans rammed through the House last week? It’s a miserably designed law, full of unintended consequences. It’s a moral disaster, snatching health care from tens of millions mainly to give the very wealthy a near-trillion-dollar tax cut.

What really stands out, however, is the Orwell-level dishonesty of the whole effort. As far as I can tell, every word Republicans, from Trump on down, have said about their bill — about why they want to replace Obamacare, about what their replacement would do, and about how it would work — is a lie, including “a,” “and” and “the.”

The really important thing, however, is not just to realize that Republicans are breaking their promises, but to realize that they are doing so with intent. This isn’t one of those cases where people try to do what they said they would, but fall short in the execution. This is an act of deliberate betrayal: Everything about Trumpcare is specifically designed to do exactly the opposite of what Trump, Paul Ryan and other Republicans said it would.

Money is always available for tax cuts for those who need it the least. And then austerity for everyone else, because for some reason, we are in a budget crisis, apparently, after trillion dollar tax cuts, somehow we are now spending beyond our means!

So exploit the commons, exploit the earth, exploit the people, sell off the structures created by the sweat and blood of generations who bequeathed us thus... Until the wealthy can squeeze no more, no more out of the dead and no more out of the dying.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 8, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
If there's one thing about the US presidential election in 2020 that seems a safe bet, it's that for the first time since 1976 (!!), neither a Bush nor a Clinton will be a candidate. (2012 doesn't count.) Thank heavens!


Mighty.... don't bet on that. Those types don't go away....


jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 8, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
I know you celebrate everytime a cop is killed, but most of them are good people, you ought to try . . .


Boy, once again way off base, Ken. Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement. There are liberal groups, however, like BLM, that may not be so supportive.

Good to hear of your humanitarian efforts regarding sailing. Sounds like a good cause.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
Boy, once again way off base, Ken. Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement.

Yeah, like the Aryan Brotherhood and KKK that you cite?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 8, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
From Facebook:

Why that healthcare lifetime maximums cap thing is a big deal:

SHARING ENCOURAGED — NO NEED TO ASK


(Credit: Clint Anderson)

"I worked for a large health insurance company throughout the late '90s/early '00s at a time when PPO/HMO policies were our main products; nearly every plan I encountered had some type of clause for preexisting conditions, as well as annual and lifetime maximum payouts.

Most of my employment was spent in the call center dealing with claims and coverage inquiries. It was a pretty boring job, but not without its enjoyable moments — as well as some memories that have stuck with me since then.

One slow evening, shortly before the call center closed for the night (we were located in CST so would stay open later to accommodate our west-coast customers), my headset beeped and I was connected to a customer.
I ran through the standard scripted greeting and introduced myself.
"Umm, hi," a shaky and worried-sounding voice uttered on the other end. "I had questions about this 'maximum' that I guess we met?"
The caller was a manager at some kind of chain restaurant...married, several kids, all covered on a pretty decent PPO policy provided by the company.

I got some basic information to look up the specific letter we'd sent out. It was in regards to one of his children, his only daughter. She had some type of advanced cancer and had been treated for a duration of several years of her short life. I'd imagine that, even after we covered most of the charges at 80% (as long as you see one of our in-network providers!), the remaining 20% resulted in some pretty hefty bills for this working-class family.

Now we weren't paying anything, and Dad wanted to know why.

The lifetime maximum had been attained on that medical policy by that poor little girl. I informed him that we would not pay any more claims for his child due to this. He started sobbing. I fought back tears (at the time I was a new parent, my firstborn Ashlee probably only a few months old at this point).
T
hrough his own tears, he asked how we could do that to them, and how could they ever expect to take care of all the bills that would likely start piling up even more now. I desperately wanted to use my own words — "It's not f*#king fair. Your little girl doesn't deserve this. Nobody deserves this." But I followed protocol, read the policy language as he cried uncontrollably, and then offered to transfer him to a department that might have more specifics (don't you LOVE when we do that when you've already been on hold for an hour?).

He agreed to be transferred, so I put him on hold and contacted the appropriate specialist. I provided all the necessary info, and I was told, "Yeah, that maximum has been met, so we won't pay anything else, but they're not going to be able to insure her on any other policy ever again — hitting a lifetime max is also a red flag to other insurers. You can put the caller through and I'll go over this with him."

I didn't work in that industry for much longer after that day, but it was on that day that I decided I hated the health insurance industry.

I was elated when Obamacare did away with lifetime maximums.
And some of you are elated that they can now be brought back? F*#k you."
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
Losing protections for Net Neutrality is a looming disaster, and we still have time to give feedback to the FCC to influence their decision. You can think of Net Neutrality as a techno-geek version of "right to access multiple perspectives to find truth, and right to choose what services we want to buy." If these protections go away, it is like giving Verizon, AT&T, and Comcast the power to decide what TV we watch, what Internet sites we can visit, what stuff we can buy, where we can raise our voice, etc....

You might see a pattern here... the new head of the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) that regulates these big companies used to be a lawyer for one of them (Verizon). Fox guarding the hen house all over again.

We regulate access to water and electricity because modern citizens depend on access to these things to function. I think Internet access should be regulated in the same way because we can't effectively participate in modern American society if our access to Internet based information and services is blocked or restricted. Aside from the preservation of democracy and informed participation of the citizenry, it is also an important consumer protection if you just want to watch Netflix and not get dicked over by your Internet provider slowing it down and charging a ransom to Netflix (who will then raise your rates).

HOW TO GIVE YOUR FEEDBACK TO FCC

http://gofccyourself.com
--> express
--> comment

In your response, mention that you support Net Neutrality, and that ISPs need to be accountable under the rules of Title II from the Communications Act of 1934.



This guy does a great job of explaining why we should give a sh!t about Net Neutrality and what is going on right now... and he does it for a wide audience that needs jokes every few seconds so their heads don't explode or go into a coma:

[Click to View YouTube Video]


More background on Title II verses what alternatives it beat out a few years ago which will probably be floated again as a "better" (read: "shittier") alternative:
https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/what-is-title-ii-net-neutrality-fcc/


Edit: I'm having problems with the FCC form right now... but here is what I am trying to submit in my comment:

Please do not dismantle the protections of Net Neutrality! We need the protections offered under the framework of Title II ("Common Carriers") of the Communications Act of 1934. This framework makes several references to "public interest" and specifically forbids discrimination or preference in content. Removing these protections in the Internet Service Provider industry would stifle competition across a wide range of industries outside of the ISP business. Verizon (as one example) has already explicitly told it's investors that the Net Neutrality regulation will NOT curb its infrastructure investments, so fear of stifling business for ISPs and reducing investments is not a reasonable justification . The only reason to dismantle Net Neutrality is to increase the profits for Verizon and similar ISPs and access providers, because they would extort revenue streams from content providers that would in turn pass these charges on to the content consumers. "Self regulation" would be a joke- the "fox guarding the hen-house" solution when there is already a track record of the large companies abusing their position in the physical path of data to harm other businesses and their consumers. This benefit for a tiny few comes at the cost of hurting millions of consumers and all types of businesses that rely on equal access to content in every household in America. Further, it undermines our democracy, which depends on informed citizens having equal access to different sources of information.

We regulate access to water and electricity because they are essential services for a modern society to function, and it is not always practical to offer multiple parallel infrastructures to deliver these same essential services. Similarly, unfettered equal access to the Internet is an essential service for our modern society. Most people in America endure a monopoly where only one company provides a modern high speed Internet service. In some cases people have alternatives, but the alternatives are typically 10x slower access speeds, so the spirit of having choice of services is not met. We functionally suffer from monopolies, but we do not properly protect our citizenry from them! Reducing the legally enforceable Net Neutrality protections would be a slap in the face to consumers and citizens across America.
Norton

Social climber
May 8, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
Most Deplorables strongly support law enforcement. There are liberal groups, however, like BLM, that may not be so supportive.

perhaps true that the stereotype "deployable" (Trump voter) being mostly white, educationally ending at high school level, and generally working, if at all, in lower paying jobs, would support law enforcement?

but since you have chosen BLM as your comparison group as evidence of the opposite

as in BLM participants don't then support law enforcement, you sure about that?

what criteria, studies, polls, etc did you consult to arrive at this conclusion?

oh yeah, I forgot - first they are black people and proportionately there are more blacks charged with crimes and imprisoned than white people

so you conclude black people don't support law enforcement the way Trump voters do

if I did not hit upon your linear thought please tell me how it differs from above....

gee, maybe, just maybe, if you turn on the news every night and hear about another unarmed black person being killed by a white law officer, why you might just not feel as great about
"law and order" ENFORCEMENT as a Deployable would

you see because it is common knowledge to anyone who has the slightest interest in sociology that black people (BLM) are as concerned about crime and their safety as Trump voters are

continuing, equally non sensical is the contention that BLM is a "liberal" group

yes, if being liberal means having below the limiting conservative surface shallow intellect to understand that when one group of clearly discriminated against Americans stands together
and protests, not protesting of course then would be Trump voters ...?

like the similar former short lived grass roots, no national support of organization group that protested what they viewed as corporate injustice to the common citizens, Occupy Wall Street? damn those liberals for not being quiet

what did I get wrong, seriously? Sorry, it sometimes get me how the word "liberal" is used
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 8, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Nut, what party is working to take away Net neutrality?
What party seems to always be promoting the exact opposite of what you think is good?

you need to work within the 2 party system (because that is all there is) to bring about change

focus on the core issue, who exactly is responsible for this mess

We need to vote them out
not get distracted by every new issue
as long as they are in power, they will vote for everything that we don't want
IMO, in a nutshell
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 9, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Note that I used the word "may", referring to the controversy about the BLM movement. Read the Wiki article. Even HRC got in trouble with them when she said "All lives matter." But you're probably correct about them not being liberal. There are probably factions that strongly support the police and factions that don't.


Net neutrality is a biggy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:15pm PT

Why aren't madman and cragmaster telling us how happy they are now that they longer have the tyranny of Obamacare holding them back.

They must be in pig heaven with all these new Trump EOs and freedoms to discriminate/hate.
Funny, you don't hear from them much now that they finally got what they wanted.

Maybe they can tell us why TrumpCare will be so much better?
because everyone else wishes ObamaCare would prevail and they can just fix it with cost controls.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
OK, people. I have been reading this thread for quite some time and I do have a serious question.

I will ask.


Is it the Federal Governments duty/responsibility to provide health care?


A simple yes or no answers will work.

You all can add in any sort of comments, but please a yes or no first.

I will start......

NO, it is not.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Craig, I grasp your point. In the end, all power will aggregate into a 2 party (or at least 2 main coalitions of parties) system because budget votes have to be yes or no for a package of stuff, no a la carte choosing.

But focusing on the parties rather than the issues leads to a stale mate, because the emotions of people's identity ("I am a donkey" / "I am an elephant") usurps their logical and rational facilities. We can't use a logical/rational appeal to change people's identity.

When you keep making it about Republicans, you reinforce the Us/Them divide which the most rich and power people in America depend on. The truth is that most people, whether they label themselves as Republican or Democrat, have a lot in common in terms of what they need to survive and thrive in our country. Our challenge is to "deconstruct" the identity of Democrat/Liberal and Republican/Conservative and focus on what most people really need and want, and why.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
Guyman, I believe YES healthcare is a duty of the federal government.

Without baseline healthcare, we have more and more people with no medical treatment, spreading diseases, living on the street, and committing crimes to get money to pay for medical treatments, and becoming part of the criminal class instead of contributing gainfully to the tax base of our country. Baseline healthcare makes the world you have to inhabit more desirable to interact with, and at a lower cost than the alternative if you have to pay for the full cost of your physical security in that dystopic world of privileged elites and masses of desperate people.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
Ken_M, the point about lifetime caps on insurance is a powerful one.

This is a really important part of the healthcare discussion. Without caps, then a small number of people can quickly exhaust the system. No matter what caps are put in place, there are going to be people with terrible stories of exceeding those caps and having money seem to be what causes their end of treatment and subsequent suffering/death. There should be a high level of transparency in stating what our society can sustain as a baseline level of coverage for everyone, and then we all accept that is the limit of what our society is capable of today. If people feel that is not enough for their personal situation, they are welcome to explore the market to get a premium level of coverage.

This situation will become more difficult over time, as medicine becomes more advanced, and the R&D and operations costs to produce medical treatments goes up.

This compromise in my mind is a balance between giving a baseline human right to everyone, and enabling an elevated privilege that can be purchased for people who have the means to do so.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Until the Senate and House have to "eat what they cook" we will continue to get the same special interest tripe. They produce legislature for the masses that they don't have to personally live with. The lack of compassion and empathy is a sign of someone who has lost touch with their own humanity. This is why divisiveness is at an all time high.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
HealthCare is a Right, not a privilege.

If it's a privilege, then only the privileged can get healthcare

I have a question
How much is A Human Life Worth?

With our system, human life is worth only as much as you can afford
and our Insurance Companies make more money when they deny coverage.

So it all comes down to greed and the willingness to let people die to save money

Is America Not the richest and best Country on Earth?
Then why can't we have the best systems for healthcare, single payer

They Republicans cost me thousands of extra dollars a year because of their greed and lies about healthcare

who wouldn't want to pay less? Republicans getting their bribes


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
Our challenge is to "deconstruct" the identity of Democrat/Liberal and Republican/Conservative and focus on what most people really need and want, and why.

The two sides are different, make no mistake
we are wired different
We can't change the minds of the other side with any reason or logic
The only thing we can change is our votes

So if you vote, you can vote for their side and get what we got
Or you can vote them all out and have a progressive country with single payer, funded science and education, clean air and water, and no National debt.

To say we can't divide up our population is crazy talk
It's already divided up, the liars and the truthers

Sorry, you are way off with your lets' all get along theory, it has never worked and it just gives evil a chance to spread it's wings

Would you call the opposition to Hitler; the other side of the same coin?
Hell no

Name one good thing that the Republicans stand for?
Just one

If they are bad in every single aspect of Governing, then why shouldn't we work as hard as possible to vote in the opposition that are for the things we think are good.

They lie about what liberals are and what the Democrats are all about, they lie like Hitler did about the jews, they lie about everything,
If you cause a division by lying about the other side, then you are delving into pure evil for political purposes

If Hillary or Bernie won in 2016 with a full Democratic House and 60 Vote Senate, would not things be a lot different Now?
It will never be perfect, but it will sure be a lot better than any Republican race to the bottom admin like we have now.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
That's the question that Republicans have to figure out, then dole out only that much in healthcare

and then they can keep the extra cash you paid in
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 03:27pm PT
I can't name the value of a human life

And of course we can't just dump money into a life to keep it alive endlessly

The answer would be to make healthcare a socialist tax that we all pitch into, and someone would have to man the death panels (not a Republican!)when the cost goes to high with excessive procedures.

All the other First World Countries figured out a way to keep cost down, we could copy the best policies.
c wilmot

climber
May 9, 2017 - 03:54pm PT
i believe the nps valued my life at $250,000. That was the amount I agreed to allocate to whomever in the event of a workplace death. Pretty cheap


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
Crag Fry and Nut.... so you think its a RIGHT do I have this correctly?

Let me ask this, question.

Should food be provided by the government?

serious Q

I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

I mean they take enuf in Taxes, we should get something tangible in return.

And Stahl Bros has a great point.... they pass laws (government)but exempt themselves from living like they want us to do.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
If there has been a coup, the insurance issue is moot.

Those who seem to know, suggest that Trump has consolidated power and we.are.f*#ked.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
Craig, you are preaching to the choir for folks who already identify as Democrat, and you are alienating everyone else. You are pinning all your hopes for societal change on the increasing voter turnout among people who already identify as Democrat.

I don't think people who are registered Republicans are evil. I do think that the leadership of that party has been hijacked by extremists that peddle fear and hate and focus on the enemy's problems rather than their own solutions, and the dilemma is how people who are deeply tied to Republican identity wrestle with those things.

We have common societal problems, and depending on how people understand those problems and what are the roots of those problems, it affects what solutions they think are best. Most of us are burdened by health issues of some sort, a desire for ourselves or our children to be better educated, and a desire to have more gainful employment. Even if these are met, we all desire community fellowship and safety. When these things are jeopardized, we feel the loss and seek ways to regain it.

In terms of how to regain these things: our country seems to be split along the following lines. On one side, people believe in the ideal of noble self-sufficiency (which is often an illusion because these folks don't recognize the ways in which they depend on others) and an insistence that other people should also be self-sufficient. On the other side, people believe there are circumstances when despite our best efforts and hard work and perseverance, sh!t can hit the fan and we need a community safety net. There are plenty of circumstances where people's own actions predictably lead to the problems they encounter, and these situations piss off the self-sufficiency folks to no end. But by lashing out against this situation, the self-sufficiency folks also damn the people who, but for the grace of god or random fate, could swap places with the self-sufficiency folks.


So I don't want to languish in Democrat and Republicanism. By focusing on issues, it gives space to imagine a world with different ideological borders. If we don't envision the world we want, we can't take steps to make it happen. I don't envision a world free of Republicans. I envision a world where people think about what is in their best interest, in the immediate future AND over the long term, for themselves and their children. That will increase the chances of having sensible policy decisions and elections.


I don't think it is feasible to change a Republican into a Democrat on a meaningful scale to shift elections. But I do think it is feasible to change societal values on specific issues. Look at how much change we have seen with racism, sexism, and LGBT rights in the last couple of generations. And throughout it all, we have had parties strongly divided. If anything the divisiveness is growing. Our hope lies in focusing on what matters to us, and not getting that tangled with legacy labels that will alienate half of the people who would potentially support it.

I just had an insight while writing this... "if you love something set it free." The more the Democrat party pulls issues into the campaign platform and touts them as Democratic ideals, the more it takes away the space for Republican folks to support those issues and makes it less likely that our society will benefit from whatever the Democrats are claiming ownership of. Democrats need to find a way to support issues without claiming ownership of the issues.

For the record, I am registered Democrat, but I used to be Green Party until I switched to vote for Bernie Sanders in the Dem primary.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
guyman, I do believe in giving food to people who are in need.

When I was a kid, we were poor and I was on a reduced rate lunch program: 10 cents per day. If I forgot my dime, I got bread and water. When I was in 5th grade, my house burned down and we lost everything (we were renting and had no insurance), and we had free breakfasts and lunches at school for a year or two after that.

I would say the government had a good return on investment for the cost of those meals... I have had years where I paid 6-figure tax bills. Every year for the last few decades I have averaged more than $50k in income taxes paid. And I don't resent it. Sure it won't work out so well for everyone, but you never know for whom it will.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:19pm PT

Should food be provided by the government?

serious Q

I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

This is actually a test for ability to live non-institutionalized.

For the Gov't to take control of you, it must be demonstrated in court that you are "gravely disabled", which is defined as:

either

1. a danger to self
2. a danger to others
3. **unable to provide for yourself
-food**
-clothing
-shelter

In Ca, this is the regulation:

ARTICLE 1. Detention of Mentally Disordered Persons for Evaluation and Treatment [5150 - 5155] ( Heading of Article 1 amended by Stats. 1969, Ch. 1472. )

5150.
(a) When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder, is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled, a peace officer, professional person in charge of a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, member of the attending staff, as defined by regulation, of a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, designated members of a mobile crisis team, or professional person designated by the county may, upon probable cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into custody for a period of up to 72 hours for assessment, evaluation, and crisis intervention, or placement for evaluation and treatment in a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment and approved by the State Department of Health Care Services.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 9, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
Great, thoughtful posts, Nut.

BAd
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
The more the Democrat party pulls issues into the campaign platform and touts them as Democratic ideals, the more it takes away the space for Republican folks to support those issues and makes it less likely that our society will benefit from whatever the Democrats are claiming ownership of. Democrats need to find a way to support issues without claiming ownership of the issues.

If Republicans can't accept reality and facts because they are Democrat issues, then there is no hope!

They have to come on board for their own morality

I really can't agree with your point.
It's big money against the People
We have to fight the few for the many.

It's all the right wing media that fosters this Right Wing mentality,
we have to try and get them off the propaganda band wagon, it has warped the minds of 40% of our population
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
I don't think people who are registered Republicans are evil. I do think that the leadership of that party has been hijacked by extremists that peddle fear and hate and focus on the enemy's problems rather than their own solutions, and the dilemma is how people who are deeply tied to Republican identity wrestle with those things.

I think this is insightful.

However, it is backed up by changes in education that make it more difficult for individuals to make independent assessments of validity. We laugh at the "alt-truth", but it is a very real thing.

I'm not sure what democrats can offer, other than an honest checklist of what they offer that is different than the GOP.

I used to think that the GOP embraced the concept of "personal moral values", at least in principle. However, the elevation of Trump, with all his very public failings demonstrates that has been lost. I cannot imagine such a man being elevated in the time of Reagan, Bush I, or Dole.

For a time, GOP leaders walked away from him, demonstrating considerable courage and concern for the country. However, all that moralizing dropped into the toilet, and was replaced by a hunger for winning. They really disappoint me.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 9, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
Dang, Trump fires Comey.

Says it's because he didn't prosecute Clinton even though he said he didn't care anymore.

But it's really to impede the Russian investigation.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
It is healthy to have multiple points of view, and work toward compromise that does the greatest good.

The current powers-that-be want divisiveness, because it makes us easier to control and manipulate. If we worked toward common ground we could take the country back.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
Comey gone. Expect Trump to put in someone who passes the loyalty test to him, not the country.


It'll be like J. Edgar all over, but with much stronger tools.

Just killed the guy who was investigating the White House.


Make America Great Again.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
Cover up has just ratcheted up. If I was Flynn, I would watch my back.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
Flynn will be indicted. Trump will pardon him before any prosecutorial deal can be made.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 9, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
If Trump says he fired Comey because he didn't prosecute Clinton, then logically he will be expecting the next FBI director to prosecute Clinton.

Trump doesn't have the guts to do this and will weasel out of this obvious hypocrisy.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
I am truly curious as to what extent the Government owes US stuff.

Well, guyman, the government is us. What do we owe ourselves?
dirtbag

climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
The number one policy issue is figuring wtf is up with trump and Russia. This whole damned government is under one giant, darkening sh#t storm cloud until this gets figured out. Don't count on Republican to do sh#t.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
If Trump says he fired Comey because he didn't prosecute Clinton

He said the OPPOSITE! The firing was because Comey "was too mean" to Clinton.

The bastard is a smug FCK. No WONDER he's been so god damned smug this entire god damned time. He knew. He knew. He KNEW. All along. And how many GOP are in on it? I guess we will find out.

The ONLY hope is that DT is so damned incompetent that he did this out of a delusional foxhole prayer that axing Comey would axe the investigation.

Comey testifies Thursday, I believe, in closed session. The moment of truth is soon upon us. Pray, and pray hard, that we are not in the workings of a coup.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
Happi, I doubt that Comey will testify on Thurs. I expect that "executive Privilege" will be exerted.

Outrageous, but Trump could probably shoot Comey in the head on 5th ave, and no one would care (he thinks)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 9, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
WTF does the FBI have to do with healthcare?

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 9, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
What is the point of an investigation if the only people that know the facts say that can't speak because it's classified....

We need all the info from the investigations that is classified and not classified so we can evaluate it in respect to the Constitution.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
Chaz, What the heck does your reading comprehension have to do with your posting???


US national policy issues looming after healthcare?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 9, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
So we're done with healthcare now?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
Comrade Craig,

I don't agree. "methods and techniques, people and places" need to be protected. We disclose the agents we have in Russia who contributed to this, they are executed tomorrow. Fine if you want to decimate our intelligence-gathering on the ground, but we don't.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 9, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
WTF does the FBI have to do with healthcare?


It does.

Tomorrow, NotMy President Trump is meeting the Russian Foreign Minister at the White House.


Guess what - that has to do with health care too. The health care of the United States.

F*#K the Affordable Health Care Act right now. Jesus FKING hrist, already.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
Chaz, I didn't think so. Thinking that way creates a perfect methodology for distraction, of which Trump is a master.

Note that healthcare has been moved off the front page this afternoon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
Happi, I think you meant the American Health Care Act.

I think the similarity to the Affordable Care Act (ObamaCare) is designed to inject confusion.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 9, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
Good question Gary....

And Nut thanks for a coherent reply.

We are the government....but it has been taken away from us my big $$$ interest.

The way I see it.... our government should protect us from all sorts of things.

Invasion
coup
somebody, messing up OUR environment or putting us in danger. Thats why we have laws about dumping your oil waste in the creek or why we have zoning laws so a dynamite factory can't open up in your neighborhood. The degree of this protection is up to debate, but somewhere along the line I bet we could ALL agree.

I do agree that the government should take care of the poor, to a degree.... nobody in our wealthy nation should be shafted. I don't wish to live in a hell hole with bodies dead on the street and starving people, we can do better than that. I think we can all agree on that to some extent.

But what do you do with people who are poor because they want to be?

I see people at the 7-11 drunk at 7am lying on the sidewalk, is this person my responsibility????? If yes, I want to capture that person and lock em up and dry them out... then dig in to try and cure the problem.

I see some 19 year old woman with her 4 children.... are those children my responsibility? If yes.... I want to take that woman and make sure the baby making stops, now, before I help the Kids have a life.

Tons of complex questions with even more complex answers. I think you must have core beliefs and thats why I asked Qs about is it the governments job to provide health care.

I don't think that that is the job of the government, but lets face it, the government is involved-- even more so after Obama care.

My solution.... the government stands as a watchdog over the insurance company's practices and contracts. If they are going to be an Insurance company they have responsibilities to all of US. One is to split up the pre-exting conditions costs among all the providers (much like auto insurance with drunk drivers- assigned risk is what I believe it is called)


And I think the government, the AMA and The FDA need to start churning out way more doctors than they now do... lets face it- being a doctor is the same as being a union member....a protected class, one way to keep the wages sky-hi is to limit the amount of Doctors practicing. I know that we turn away many many qualified people who could earn the tittle. More Doctors would bring the costs down.

I don't think that the government is a cost effective way of doing anything... they waste $$$$ like no sane person would but some things are best left to them...see the top of this rant.

anyway... time to go bouldering. C-ya

ONE EDIT... you people don't get it about Trump, he is not a republican.... you forget sooo quickly that they didn't want him at all... but a whole bunch of US voted for him and he got the right mix of support in the geographical places he need to win. and Hippygirl.... he is your president, get usta it.... or you could move on to a better place.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:38pm PT

And I think the government, the AMA and The FDA need to start churning out way more doctors than they now do... lets face it- being a doctor is the same as being a union member....a protected class, one way to keep the wages sky-hi is to limit the amount of Doctors practicing. I know that we turn away many many qualified people who could earn the tittle. More Doctors would bring the costs down.

This has been proven to be definitively untrue. The highest medical costs in the country are where the most concentration of doctors are. The most expensive hospital in the USA is UCLA, in a region that is wall-to-wall doctors.

However, you are right. This stuff is highly complex. For example, the AMA, to which 2/3 of the doctors of America do NOT belong, does often act as a trade organization. But they have nothing to do with the approval or planning of Medical Schools, other than making recommendations. You'll be taken aback that they totally support a huge expansion......which should (they think) lead to a big expansion of dues paying members. Similar thinking to traditional unions. The FDA has nothing to do with medical schools.
Norton

Social climber
May 9, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
^^^^^^^^

guman, why I think I agree with some of what you said above!



So we're done with healthcare now?

not so fast...we have to bring this thing to conclusion....we need the Republican Senate to
vote on their preferred version of the new all American "healthcare" law and send it back to
the Republican House and then to the Republican President to sign it

and i am hoping the Republicans pass into law their American Healthcare Act -TrumpCare

because as much as I personally do care a lot and hate to see tens of millions of my fellow Americans lose their healthcare, be denied healthcare because the Republican state they happen to live it votes to take the waiver and their pre existing condition gets them thrown off healthcare ----

I want to see this happen so those Americans who have amnesia will get
reminded of the ignorance, incompetence, screw you-I got mine, kind of government you get when Republicans are voted to be in charge

often times significant change only happens when those who ignorantly vote against their own self interests are confronted with the results of their vote, beat over the head and maybe change
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
We are the government....but it has been taken away from us my big $$$ interest.

That's called hitting the nail on the head. was always against public financing of elections, I didn't want my tax dollars going to support the campaign of someone I wasn't going to vote for. But I've changed my mind. It's the most important issue today.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
you people don't get it about Trump, he is not a republican.... you forget sooo quickly that they didn't want him at all... but a whole bunch of US voted for him and he got the right mix of support in the geographical places he need to win.

Trump IS a Republican. In fact, he is the leader of the Republican Party. I guess you don't get it. His Chief-of-Staff is the former head of the Republican Central Committee, someone thought to be a centrist, who NEVER stepped away from him. Enough Republicans swallowed hard, and threw away their principles to achieve a capture of the White House.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
That's called hitting the nail on the head. was always against public financing of elections, I didn't want my tax dollars going to support the campaign of someone I wasn't going to vote for. But I've changed my mind. It's the most important issue today.


I totally agree. What we end up paying in corruption FAR FAR exceeds any tax money that would go to elections.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
NPR:

FBI Director James Comey's Firing Resembles The Saturday Night Massacre




May 9, 20177:22 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered


President Trump's firing of the FBI director is being compared to the Saturday Night Massacre, which was when President Richard Nixon dismissed independent special prosecutor Archibald Cox.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 9, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
NPR:

http://www.npr.org/2017/05/09/527680260/fbi-agents-association-president-reacts-to-james-comeys-firing

FBI Agents Association President Reacts To James Comey's Firing



NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Thomas O'Connor, president of the FBI Agents Association, about President Trump's surprise firing of FBI Director James Comey.

So now we get to see how GOP scumbags ACTUALLY support the on-the-line law enforcement officers..........
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 9, 2017 - 07:06pm PT
I know a few neocons that are on Medi-cal , won't work , and strip a bolt when Obamacare gets mentioned...Apparently socialized medicine is okay as long as Democrats can't get it...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 9, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
Ken M... thanks for the news... King Donald is taking full advantage of the guillotine...
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 9, 2017 - 09:51pm PT
He's (Comey) probably a double agent anyway . . . they appear to be ubiquitous.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 9, 2017 - 10:00pm PT
$5979.34 a pop is chump change . . . these niggas in Washington are just pasty gang bangers, preying on the sleeping populace of the bad ol' USA.
JC Marin

Trad climber
CA
May 9, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
How do you say "screwed" in Russian?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 10, 2017 - 12:51am PT
$5979.34

Hell, that's the deductible here...
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 10, 2017 - 04:04am PT
only new thing this whole comey firing exposes to me is what an unadulterated piece of trash cnn.com and i'm assuming, even though i don't have a cable subscription, their news network has become. their headlines and "news" articles regarding this story have been so replete with bald faced editorialization and regular lies that i'm starting to have sympathy for trump's "fake" news characterization.

only level headed analysis i've seen so far is krauthammer's on fox news... what is the world coming to that i have to say the last two lines?



because, for myself, there are two equally interesting aspects to this story:

1. everything trump and co said about comey is basically correct: disdain for comey is one of the few things that unites the right and left. for ex: what american agent of "justice" has ever gone to the press to basically try in the court of public opinion their reasons for not prosecuting someone [as comey did regarding clinton in july of last year]? as i said then and i'll say now: that should never have happened.

2. why in the fUck now? after all of the bull shIt that trump has spewed about having confidence in comey for the last few months... given comey's past why did this decision wait until now?



because no, the stated reasons were not as cnn.com blared for hours after this story broke: "because comey didn't prosecute clinton". and there was no excuse: cnn had access from moment one to the same documents that laid out the case that was being made, just as everyone else had.

however the timing certainly is curious... [ie. how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?]



this firing is the best political rorschach test, i've seen in recent memory. for the time being, it tells us more about the audience than it does about the actors.

which is too bad, because there is meat to chew on in all directions.
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 06:09am PT
So now that the incompetent bastard has been fired he's not the Evil F*#k That Cost Hillary The Election anymore?

I'm sorry, that's laughable.

I'd of fired that sonofabitch the first day.

DMT

There are many good reasons for firing Comey. Trump picked a bad one: the Russia investigation. This isn't a defense of Comey as much as it is outrage over an attempt to derail an investigation, and Trump's abuse of his power. And make no mistake, this is entirely about Russia, despite that lying son of a bitch Trump's spin on it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 08:33am PT
Now this is laughable
only level headed analysis i've seen so far is krauthammer's on fox news...

and you call CNN fake news
I think you just lost all creditability

but it makes sense for a Fox News buff
all other News is fake
monolith

climber
state of being
May 10, 2017 - 08:42am PT
how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?]

Sheesh, there were no indictments. Wake up Nahooo.
Norton

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 08:46am PT
what an unadulterated piece of trash cnn.com and i'm assuming, even though i don't have a cable subscription

you don't have cable TV and so you can't watch CNN

explain how you would be able to assume CNN is a piece of "trash"?

what exactly are they wrong about to quality as trash?

include in your explanation your case for what "fake news" or "lies" they are putting forth

and then compare that to any other cable or broadcast TV news for degree of accuracy
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 10, 2017 - 09:04am PT
only level headed analysis i've seen so far is

Reuters and BBC. CNN is a sad joke.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:33am PT
WaPost:

So, just as Comey requests more money for the Trump probe, of the exact same person from Justice that recommended his firing to Trump, Trump fires him.

Comey sought more money for FBI’s Russia probe days before he was fired, officials say

James B. Comey made the request in a meeting last week with Rod J. Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, and Senate Intelligence Committee members were briefed on the request on Monday.

And our favorite Admin Spokes:

Kellyanne Conway: It’s ‘inappropriate’ to question timing of firing

I wonder if we are even allowed to THINK about the question of timing of firing? I guess they'll let us know.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:34am PT
how many of you noticed that a couple hours after this story broke, that grand jury indictments in the flynn case were dropped?

What indictments?

What Grand Jury?

This is a National Security matter. Everyone involved has to have top secret security clearances, which a Grand Jury does not have.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:39am PT
Of course, the democrats would have made sure the same thing happened.

Gotta make sure JGill's associates are treated well by the IRS

the IRS puts white-nationalist groups in the same category as orchestras, planetariums and zoos

The 2016 election saw white nationalists openly and widely champion President Trump, raising their profile in American politics and adding overtly racist voices that were not part of the national dialogue in recent elections.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:41am PT
What do they say? The winner writes the history?


All of Trump’s campaign statements just vanished from his website. So let’s remember them.


Whatever the reasons for their disappearance, the statements are all preserved in the Internet’s unofficial archives. Here are some of the more memorable statements.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 09:43am PT
With Comey’s dismissal, the Russia investigation will soon be run by Trump allies
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:03am PT
I truly, truly, hope this is accurate. So far, this person HAS proved to be accurate. So....
Form Pinned Tweet: https://twitter.com/TrueFactsStated

Claude Taylor‏ @TrueFactsStated 2h2 hours ago

There's 25 sealed indictments. Thanks to Comey and the Assistant United States Attorney. Waiting for them to be unsealed-it's when. Not if.

Did anyone see the clip on tv where Russia Prime Minister replies with unhidden sarcasm to question regarding Comey's firing, and Tillerson smirks, as they walk away with a dismissive hand gesture?


Gawd, I hope the sealed indictments are true. Otherwise, it is going to get bad and fast.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:07am PT
Sean Spicer says Sally Yates was a ‘strong supporter’ of Hillary Clinton. His evidence: Rumors.


Oh, really, Sean?


In 1989, she was hired as Assistant U.S. Attorney by Bob Barr for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of Georgia

Hired by the most conservative man in Congress? Who led the Impeachment of Bill Clinton?

She rose to First Assistant U.S. Attorney in 2002 and to Acting U.S. Attorney in 2004.

Both times nominated by GW Bush

So a dedicated non-partisan profession, who had served administrations of both parties. Who said, in her questioning by Jeff Sessions for her last appointment:

On May 13, 2015, the United States Senate voted 84–12 (4 not voting) to confirm Yates as Deputy Attorney General of the United States, the second-highest-ranking position in the Justice Department;[12][13] during her confirmation hearing, when questioned by Senator Jeff Sessions if she would disobey a president's unlawful orders, she responded that she would have an obligation to follow the law and the Constitution, and to give an independent legal advice to the president

I thought the GOP was about following the law, and the Constitution? I guess not.

I would expect that we will see the oath of office of federal employees changed soon. They will be required to swear allegiance to the President, NOT to the Constitution.

"If dedicated government officials deem [Trump's] directives to be unlawful and unconstitutional, he will simply fire them as if government is a reality show."

The New York Times and others drew comparisons to U.S. President Richard Nixon's dismissal of special prosecutor Archibald Cox in the Saturday Night Massacre and "some cable networks"[34] began calling Yates's dismissal the "Monday Night Massacre".

Watergate investigative journalist Carl Bernstein, however, speaking on CNN, rejected the comparison.

"There's a big difference, because the Saturday Night Massacre was really about firing the attorney general when Nixon was the target of an investigation and was actively obstructing justice",


That would be more like firing, say, Comey.............
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:13am PT
Gawd, I hope the sealed indictments are true. Otherwise, it is going to get bad and fast.

Happi, I think this may be about Flynn's not complying with the law in acting as a paid agent of a foreign country in lobbying.

I don't believe it has anything to do with his potential collusion with the Russians in overturning our election. (or knowledge of it happening)

HOWEVER, it would be a POWERFUL tool in forcing his cooperation.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:23am PT
If you are drawing your conclusion from what you are getting in online versions of print media, your conclusions will be based on days old information.

Either we are getting massively played by worse than imagined, to keep the Resistance on simmer, or the Twittees I have bee posting(as above) have information coming directly from intelligence community.

According to these folks, the IC knows E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G on the Trump/Russia connection. If so - my new favorite hashtag is: #ThereWillBeHanging

Not that I wish for anyone to lose a father, or brother, or Uncle or Son. Especially when they lose them because they were traitors. But not only are these folks(if what is being told is true) traitors to their country; they have betrayed each and every single person in this country AND those who depend on us for support. Betrayed in a way SO MUCH WORSE that what Judas did to Jesus, for all those hiding behind their love for Jesus Christianity while they do NO do what Jesus would do.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 10, 2017 - 10:23am PT
......... with the Russians in overturning our election. (or knowledge of it happening)


Ken M .... you need to seek out some HELP with your delusions. Please for your family's sake.

but please keep it coming, I get belly laughs from your "statements".

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
If you are drawing your conclusion from what you are getting in online versions of print media, your conclusions will be based on days old information.

It is worth noting the phenomenon known as "the fog of war", in which early reports on thing are often wrong.

Things reported on "legitimate media" generally have to go through a vetting process, with reporters having to present their evidence and their case to an experienced editor, who must approve the publication.

There is no such process in the "Twitterverse". In fact, that lack of vetting allows the publication of all sorts of outrageous lies, and I don't mean mistakes, I mean deliberate lies. (see: Trump, Donald)

I would far rather read something that has had some degree of vetting by a news organization, which stands behind their reporting and has a lot to lose if they are wrong---even if it causes the news item to be a little bit behind.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 10:35am PT
The Fake News people think this whole Russia thing is a farce
just like Climate Change and science

do they ever admit to being wrong after the facts are laid bare?
No, they will say they always believed "whatever" to save face

Hey Guy, the Russia thing will take down Trump, along with many others
Believe me now or believe me after all is said and done
maybe then you will get the help you need to sort fact from fiction

The Trump campaign Was In Collusion with Russia, Fact
Trump borrowed 100s of Millions of Dollars from Russia
Trump has Business deals worth 100s of millions in Russia, Indonesia and Saudi (where they kill Gays and keep women repressed)
Trump has been used as a Russian Patsy and can be blackmailed by Russia
Trump is doing a very poor job of covering up his guilt


Who else is complement?
Paul Ryan
Mitch McConnell
Jeff Sessions, forgot to mention he talked to the Russians on the campaign
Rex Tillerson, Putin's best Friend
Page Carter, Russian diplomat
Flynn, being paid by Russia to spy and leak National Secrets
And his campaign chairman, Mister Russia Paul Manafort


and they all are using private servers?????
Lock em up!!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:41am PT
I do agree with your statement, and am pretty leary of accepting Twitterese at face value. However, the folks I have been following have been consistently shown to be ahead of main media by about three days. Media is ALL following these men, and woman, and then going in search of the multiple source conf so they can say it without risk of being ass-bitten.

I have been following @20Committee for about 5 months, and so far....ALL the stuff that has come out on MSM I read via his feed(his statements and more often RT's of a select other few) days earlier.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:46am PT
Just peaking in.

Lots of theories out there, but everything pertinent is classified...until it's leaked.

What we do know, about the Trump ties to Russian election interference, is that:
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.

We also know that:
Hillary, as SOS, made a deal with Russia on uranium.
Podesta has stock in Russian gas company that would make more money if fracking in the US was limited.
Trump wants to increase fracking for natural gas.

Pass the popcorn, reality is better than "House of Cards".
Tchau
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 10:47am PT
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.
100% WRONG
They said very clearly that the Trump campaign had ties with Russia
and that Russia is Still involved in some kind of espionage

Hillary, as SOS, made a deal with Russia on uranium.
Hillary did not make this deal, the Dept. of Energy and the State did.

so more WRONG

where did you get your fake News?
Fox or Rush

Is the Hillary campaign being investigated for ties to Russia?
NO
Why even bring it up?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2017 - 10:55am PT
I love how Team Trump is trying to sell this firing like it was the idea of the Deputy AG.

Does anyone, even Trump fans, believe this bullsh#t?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 11:16am PT
There are still many tribalists that cling to what they want to be true
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:21am PT
Craig;
I should have said they were all quoted as saying there is no "evidence" of collusion between Russia and Trump.
Otherwise it's all true, not 100% wrong.

I'll withdraw the statement on Hillary
The Snopes article does have a tidbit
It is also true that large donations to the foundation from the chairman of Uranium One, Ian Telfer, at around the time of the Russian purchase of the company and while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, were never disclosed to the public. The multimillion sums were channeled through a subsidiary of the Clinton Foundation, CGSCI, which did not reveal its individual donors.

Such awkward collisions between Bill’s fundraising activities and Hillary’s public service have raised concerns not just among those who might be dismissed as part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/

Wouldn't you say it at least looks pretty fishy?
Cheers
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:42am PT
I should have said they were all quoted as saying there is no "evidence" of collusion between Russia and Trump.

Hmmm...I think not. The evidence, if there is any, is still Classified, and therefore they CAN NOT CONFIRM OR DENY.

That is what is my understanding. From watching/hearing the clips where they were asked "the question," and their responses at that time. And from comments made by specialists in the filed of National Security and Intelligence.

We want to hear what we want to hear, and we watch news that supports what we want to hear, but we MUST remember that the news we are getting MAY be edited in a way to present a particular perspective.

I think that about the only thing we can all agree on is that we are indeed living in interesting times.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:44am PT
Well put Happy

Edit: Kind of what I said in my initial post. The pertinent info is classified
Edit 2:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/5/5/1659292/-No-Claude-Taylor-and-company-are-not-reputable-sources-on-Trump-Russia
Not sure what's true and what's not. I'll bow out now, I'm over my head ;-)
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 10, 2017 - 11:55am PT
But they did NOT say there were no ties, which is what your post infers.

And..... according to the sources I am watching, a Grand Jury has been impaneled in New York. Apparently directly said from MA Senator Markey.

I CAN"T sped the rest of my internet session wallowing in this muck, so just have to let it go.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
Happy,
I corrected my post.
They were all quoted as saying there is no evidence. 100% their own words.
I prefaced it all by saying the pertinent info is classified
Cheers
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 10, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
The stink will never wash off the Trump administration. Every day they look dirtier. Firing Comey now is an act of desperation. Pretty soon the GOP rats will start jumping the leaking SS Trumptanic.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
Politofact reports

Trump is also wrong that Clinton alone allowed the transfer.

The Kremlin’s 2010 purchase of a controlling stake in Uranium One had to be approved by the nine members of the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States.

That included Clinton as secretary of state, but also the secretaries of the Treasury (the chairman of the committee), Defense, Justice, Commerce, Energy and Homeland Security as well as the the heads of the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative and the Office of Science and Technology Policy. The deal also had to be okayed by the independent Nuclear Regulatory Commission as well as Utah’s nuclear regulator.
Hillary had no veto vote to stop the transfer

The payments to the Clinton Foundation could not have helped the deal in any way, and not a single cent went to the Clinton's from the foundation

so it sounds like pure conspiratory BS
like all your posts
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
James Clapper stated there are no Russian ties.
Sally Yates stated there are no Russian ties.
Maxine Waters stated there are no Russian ties.

They all said that the Trump Campaign had ties to Russia
That's why there is an investigation, they are looking into the TIES

Flynn, Manafort, Page, Tillerson, Kush are ALL TIES
They have Phone call records, records on meetings, and other classified evidence

They also said there is No (Not Classified) Evidence of Collusion with Russia that they have seen, Yet
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Dear Mr. President,


I am formally requesting that you resign your presidency.

I list my reasons below.

1) The Office of Government Ethics has opined that “familial transfer of management authority” to your sons does not eliminate conflicts of interest under 18 U.S.C. § 208.

2) It appears that you are not actively engaged in any effort to eliminate your conflicts of interest. This is evidenced by the fact that soon after you took the oath of office, you doubled the cost of club membership dues at your Mar-a-Lago Club from $100,000 to $200,000.

3) It has become well known that the number, size and profile of events at your Mar-a-Lago Club have increased substantially. Given the frequency of your visits to the club, it is widely understood that members and their guests anticipate and expect the opportunity to see or interact with the president of the United States, if they are financially fortunate enough to be at the club.

4) Your so-called “Muslim Ban” (your words) has been deemed unlawful by the federal court system.

5) You have engaged in a so-called “war on the Mmedia” (your words), and have labeled several American institutions as “enemies of the people,” (your words) which undermines the legitimacy of freedom of the press under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

6) During the House Intelligence Committee hearing March 20, the F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, announced that the agency is investigating whether members of your campaign colluded with Russia to influence the 2016 election. In fact, the implication is that your campaign was under criminal investigation during the campaign, and voters were not told.

7) Now, just 24 hours after a Senate hearing featuring testimony from Sally Yates and James Clapper, both of whom pointed to more evidence of your administration’s ties to Russia, you fired FBI Director James Comey who was leading an active investigation into those ties. The timing of this is suspect, and whatever your reasons, it resembles a cover up.

As a result, even if you were to address and remedy your conflicts of interest, your presidency will most likely be followed by a cloud of scandal and its legitimacy will be continually questioned. I strongly feel that for these reasons, you will not be able to effectively carry out the authority of your office and as such you should resign at once.

Sincerely,

Peter Brack
Citizen of the United States of America
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-formal-request-for-the-resignation-of-the-45th-president_us_59126ddae4b0e3bb894d5bb7
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
This is a sobering factual recap of recent trump related events, leading to a troubling question: are we descending towards becoming a failed state?

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/10/is-america-a-failing-state-trump-fires-comey-fbi/
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Things are going great.... the water in the swamp is going down.

come on.... 6 weeks ago Maxine was yelling for Comeys head on a stick, now him getting canned is the biggest crime EVER.

Failed state... hahahahahahahahaha what the F do you think we were under OBAMA? Winning?

get a clue fools

and CF no matter what you say... your 100% wrong and lying.

so there

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 10, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Boy, oh, boy. You guys arguing about which group of corporate flunkies is less corrupt than that another group of corporate flunkies is quite amusing.
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.

May 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Things are going great.... the water in the swamp is going down.

As I've said many times, you cannot explain things to people who utter such nonsense. It's a hopeless task. Waste of time. Maybe they'll wake up, read a damned newspaper, learn something, but probably not. It's sad. You have to get people to the polls and defeat them.
Norton

Social climber
May 10, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
wow

what a childish post, evidenced by a childish intellect

gonna graduate high school this year?

"so there" na na na na na
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 10, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
and CF no matter what you say... your 100% wrong and lying.

so there
what lie?

wrong about what?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
"WHITE HOT" is how a friend of the President described Trump about Comey.

Do we need a president who gets "white hot" about anything at all?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
Failed state... hahahahahahahahaha what the F do you think we were under OBAMA? Winning?

You must have not looked at your stock portfolio over those 8 years, bro.

You must not have looked at the 60 continuous months of job growth---a total reversal of the previous year.

Yeah, we were winning.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Trumps postponing the inevitable by firing Comey.. Trump's going down and so is the American Dream...
dirtbag

climber
May 10, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
Yeah...this won't end well.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 10, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
Trumps got his own little piece of heaven... cue up the Zappa guitar solo..
WBraun

climber
May 11, 2017 - 07:03am PT
So ....

The FBI is investigating Trump's administration for illegal ties to the Russian Mob (nothing to do with Putin) so Trump fires the head of the FBI.

This is the American Potus administration now, full of stoopid fascists run in the background by loons Bibi Netyahoo, Trumps son in law, absolute nutcases such as McCain and lindsey Graham.

They are sooo stoopid and criminal now it's beyond belief.

It's Americans fault, they do nothing about this except drool ......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 11, 2017 - 07:38am PT
Kislyak and his bitch.

Look at that winning smile after he fired Comey for investigating he and Kislyak.





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:07am PT
Guyman
serious question

Were your parents Republicans?
What media do you follow?

You know that you are now in a group of only 36% that approve of Trump

The rest of us think he's the worst disaster EVER


and no one can deny that Trump does not have ties to Russia
just look at the picture above
that is a Tie to Russia, right there
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Few around here will admit to be republicans. They say they are 'independents'.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 09:17am PT
The rest of us think he's the worst disaster EVER

Right, snowflake. I'm kinda partial to Kennedy and Johnson for Viet Nam although,
to be fair, both Bushies give 'em a run with their Iraq escapades.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:24am PT
Good for you Mr. Independent
or what I call a Republican

I really think it's time to change your avatar
It's really lame
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 09:31am PT
I really think it's time to change your avatar
It's really lame

There's no end to the things that get yer knickers bunched, is there?
Are pigeons sitting on gargouilles now politically incorrect? You must
be a real hoot to hang out with!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Not so good
Nothing worse than a Far Right Wing Republican One Rule America
The White Nationists are turning the screws on our freedoms

If we only had a true Democracy of the Majority, things would be a lot better IMO

I guess the rest of the world is worried as well
How long do you give the Trumpster Jimmy?

No knickers in a bunch, I just call lameness out when I see it
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 10:02am PT
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 11, 2017 - 11:09am PT

Impeachment!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 11, 2017 - 11:11am PT
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
Trump to justice department: Write me up some reasons to fire Comey.

Trump to press: Justice recommends I fire Comey.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 11, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
#impeachthetraitor
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
warning rant following....


Crag F .... to answer your Questions about my parents, not that you have any right to know, or that they had any real impact on me....

My Mom is pretty a political (if thats a word - 6th grade made no impression on me caus there were better things to do - like chase women) Dad, is a died in the wool Republican, Airforce Colonel.... during Viet Nam (you might recall that little crisis for our country) who I would come dam close to having fistfights with at our dinner table back in 67-70.... That stopped when Dad came to the conclusion that the way the whole war was being run was UN-american and designed to waste our valuable brave troops.... and that was being run at that time by Nixon a true Republican.

So I did see that one can change a very deeply held beliefs when confronted with evidence that you can see taste and feel.

I , if you can recall was a hippy dippy climber, just like 95% of our generation was, esp the climbers. As I got older and our country went left to right to back left again I began to see the whole political scene as a sham-a lie- and a big con game to enrich some groups…. And it had nothing to do with “the right thing” as I see it, for the good of “the people”.

But I remained a registered Democrat and didn’t vote for Regan or for Bush …. I voted for President Obama by god! But then I began to see things differently, it seems like the only thing the Democrats wanted was more $$$ TAXES from things like the sugar tax on soft drinks, a extra extra TAX$$$ on fuel and on and on and on… always looking for more $$$ to spend controlling all of US and a totally failed “HEALTH CARE SYSTEM" called “Obama Care” that really cares for nobody. The republicans want to control us too…. Lots of laws to put people in jail for all sorts of stuff, except for those on the inside, they can steal you blind and the law looks the other way.

I only changed to Republican so I could vote for Donald Trump …. The Republicans worst nightmare.

Sooooo …. The way I see it 90% of the Government and its workers are corrupt a-holes who are also incompetent and the only thing they ever care about is who gets the credit, who gets to siphon off $$$$$$$$$ to their friends and causes and the people like me be dammed…. “you just get back to work and make sure you pay those taxes on time…. And next year we will be back for more, because we spent it all and really never got the job done…. “

So yea, I cheer on Donald, I support deporting illegal aliens… esp when they are let out of prison.
I think people should be responsible for the Kids they spawn and their healthcare needs, food, housing, everything.

Lots of screwed up stuff in the good old USA right now but with some swamp draining and some really good political fighting and bloodletting (not real blood mind you… we did that in the civil war) we might just get the parties re-focused – Right and Left – so when you vote for somebody you have a better chance of having them (the person elected) stand for something you believe in…..

I DO hope the Dems go hard left and the REPUBS go hard right in the next election… then we, the American Voters, can do what I think we really want to do and that is to go right down the center.

So please all you lefties who want the Government to try and fix everything, please run Warren or better yet Bernie next go round…

end
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
Nice rant Guy
thanks

what media do you follow?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
Guy, it seems that your problems are not so much with the ideology of the two most popular parties, but with the concept of government employees being corrupt and wasteful. It seems you perceive that the bigger the government and the more taxes collected, the more of this corruption and waste will occur.

I suppose that is true. But it is also true of corporations that would otherwise provide the services that the government could provide. I would rather pay the waste and corruption of the government, than the waste and corruption of a business along with the overhead of shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
CF... Radio = KFI, KABC and ESPN
TV... not much but BBC World News tells a pretty straight story.
CNN, CNBC make me want to puke with their slanted take on everything and none of the TV funny men are funny at all.

If I read a newspaper...sometimes on Sunday morning, The Christian Science Monitor, the Valley News and the LA Weekly. My neighbor gets the CSM he lets me read his if I wish.

And Super Topo... I look at a lot of the links, some good some bad.


Nut... you sort of have it, but I trust corporations way more than I trust our government, heck I work for a corporation do you? Or do you pick up a government check?

Name me a corporation that has done more bad things in this world than OUR government.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Mr Fry, please enlighten me as to how the Thought Police deem a pigeon on a gargouille lame, especially in comparison with yer stunningly imaginative avatar. I'm genuinely interested in seeing yer rationalizations and I'd really like to see you weasel out of denying that it bunched yer knickers. It caused you to comment on it so either yer knickers have, at the least, an annoying crease, or yer so magnanimous that you couldn't bear to see me belittling myself with bad graphics. That is unless, as I initially surmised, you perceive it as some affront to yer holier-than-thou sensibilities.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
It's lame because it doesn't look like it does when you look at it closeup

It looks like that silly monster from an old "Genesis" Video

That was easy
Next question
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Name me a corporation that has done more bad things in this world than OUR government.

As I recall a quote from my junior high history teacher, it motivates me to reevaluate my positions:

"Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely."

I was going to use this argument to rationalize that the USA government has done worse things than corporations only because more power is concentrated in that organization. But that begs the obvious solution to minimize corruption by minimizing power, by distributing it to many small entities (i.e. smaller federal government). That seems right mathematically, but it doesn't gel with my personal experience. Maybe it is true that the magnitude and sum of corruption in the entire system is less when power is distributed... but then again there seems to be less vetting and more obvious corruption at a local level. Maybe that is a bullsh!t rationalization or assumption on my part. Perhaps the difference is just that we can more easily wrap our minds around local corruption, and the scale/audacity/impact of national/internal corruption is so much that we don't really grasp it.

This puts an interesting twist on things for me... I can see the advantages of distributed systems as being more efficient than central control... but how to address these things in that context:
 pool risk across all people in the nation to minimize the per capita cost of healthcare while ensuring baseline coverage for all
 set national educational standards so that states with a high percentage of flat-earthers don't undermine the standards and put the kids from there at a disadvantage to kids from other states and the rest of the world
 set national investments in scientific, medical, energy research, awarding funds based on merit from applications across the country

This is striking some parallels to my work with distributed computer systems. It is not an "either/or" proposition of centralized or distributed. There is a way to make sure important parts of the system that are in the main line of the work are distributed, but you can still retain centralized policy control that instructs the distributed elements how to handle their functions.

But in terms of government, I suspect the distributed entities (cities/counties/states) won't follow the policy guidelines of the central entity (federal government) unless it controls the purse strings by collecting the funds directly from citizens and then distributing them to the smaller entities. This activity itself is a source of power that corrupts, and it requires an infrastructure of people to manage the definition of how much funds to collect and distribute, how to account for that, how to detect and respond when folks are cheating, and then all the people required for these core functions require an infrastructure of others who work in human resources, IT, and so on like a huge company... so there is your government bloat. You can't get away from it unless you make the government powerless except for military. And then you surrender uniform national standards to define baseline rights for children and people in general. And then what happens when states like Hawaii get too many people dependent on government support? Do they start kicking people out? Do they form their own army to fight with the states that don't want to receive the deadbeats?

I'm back to believing in big government, with a panel to review government efficiency and continually analyze whether tasks can be done more cost effectively without lowering quality, e.g. by outsourcing the functions to private sector contractors, or by eliminating the task as a function of the government. This sounds pretty close to what we have today- yet another group of folks that some would call more "bloat".
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
DMT your good people....

and so is Dr. F I know him from back in the day.

There is something about the internet that brings out bad manners in people, I know I have just exploded after reading some stuff. And the general lack of reading and writting skilz in some of us only adds to the problem.

I go climbing with Frummy all the time and we do 10-12 drives together...he is is a very left wing sort of person, his people settled in Petaluma way back and raised chickens.... I know you know the history of that place.

Anyway- face to face we have some heated discussions but remain calm and collected, he has his points and so do I. I don't think it would be possible to have the sort of talks we have while driving, hiking and climbing on the internet.



I hope I have not offended anybody with my point of view.



And to NUT.... what do you think about Janet Napolitano? She sure helps herself to the public treasury.

I think we were able to have almost free University education in California in the 60's and 70's is because the people who worked the university did so for just a average salary. A few years ago when UCSD needed a new chancellor because the old one retired I recall reading a story that the university went and hired a new one at almost twice the salary of the old one.... some spokesperson answered when asked why did they pay more.. "because we needed to to attract qualified people.." The way I see things in this world.... you go and promote some assistant chancellor and you offer the new person about 80% of what the old one made. That is how we do it in business. They do things differently in the government I guess.

going bouldering now

EDIT for nut.... the way our government was set up originally was limited power... the boundary set up by the founders works, but not if things get out of wack. ie: to much power in a president or a weak Senate things go to hell ..... and that's about where we are now.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
Wa Post


Trump targets the Navy’s new aircraft catapult
President Trump set his sights on the Navy in a new interview, calling the service’s new electromagnetic catapult to launch planes off aircraft carriers “no good” and saying that the Navy needs to go back to “Goddamned steam,” the method used for decades. A Pentagon official said that Trump’s comments caught defense officials off-guard and are inaccurate.

Trump will "make the navy great" again!
monolith

climber
state of being
May 11, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
I've registered gop since the 90s.

That's cute, so does Norton.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
Right, snowflake. I'm kinda partial to Kennedy and Johnson for Viet Nam although,
to be fair, both Bushies give 'em a run with their Iraq escapades.

Wow, I thought Bush I was right in the first Gulf War, and conducted it well and appropriately.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
Wa Post

Homeland Security chief weighs changes to visa program that could hurt Kushner real estate company

In an early test of how the administration will handle matters that could carry significant financial consequences for the president’s extended family, Homeland Security Secretary John F. Kelly is considering changes that would make it difficult to attract foreign money to projects in prosperous areas.

So here we get to find out what the Trump family charges to give away US Citizenship.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
Trump says he was thinking of ‘this Russia thing’ when he decided to fire Comey

Recounting his decision to dismiss the FBI director, the president told NBC News “I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it’s an excuse by the Democrats.” His account flatly contradicts the White House’s initial version of events and undercuts denials by his aides that the move was influenced in any way by his growing fury with the ongoing Russia probe.


OOOOPS! Contradicts everything that has come out of the White House previously on this. Puts Sessions in trouble, because he was supposed to have recused himself on everything related to the Russia investigation---and he just recommended firing the Chief Investigator, and lied about why.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 11, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
Jim, not sure why addressed to me. These sorts of unintended things seem to happen with protectionist measures, instead of good things.

But I guess we're about to find that out.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 12, 2017 - 07:20am PT
The stinking scrote sack is now threatening James Comey.

The tweet says Comey "better hope there are no tapes of our conversations."

Or what? Middle school president.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2017 - 07:35am PT
DMT I hold no allegiance to any political party or perspective.

Yes, this is intelligent, only seek those with intelligence and not some stoopid clowns in a party like politards do .....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:08am PT
Trump reportedly sought a loyalty pledge from Comey

As I predicted a few days ago....demanding loyalty to the President, and not the Constitution or the USA.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:09am PT
Trump threatens to cancel White House press briefings because it is not possible to have ‘perfect accuracy’

Trump's comments come after his description of his decision to fire FBI Director James B. Comey flatly contradicted the accounts provided earlier by White House officials.

Ah, I guess we'll have to call Moscow to get updates.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:14am PT
The tweet says Comey "better hope there are no tapes of our conversations."

Linda Tripp was a resident of Columbia, Maryland, at the time she made her surreptitious recordings of the conversations with Lewinsky, and 49 Democrats in the Maryland Legislature signed a letter to the state prosecutor demanding that Tripp be prosecuted under Maryland's wiretap law.

Before the trial, the state court ruled that because of the immunity agreements which the Independent Counsel's office entered into with Tripp, Lewinsky, and others, a substantial amount of the evidence which the prosecution intended to use was inadmissible.

Trump has no immunity agreements, so it makes you wonder if he has admitted to committing a crime?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:18am PT
Sessions directs prosecutors to seek toughest drug charges

Attorney General Jeff Sessions overturned the sweeping criminal charging policy of former attorney general Eric H. Holder Jr. and directed his federal prosecutors to charge defendants with the most serious, provable crimes carrying the most severe penalties.

The setup for the attack on MJ usage in the states where it is legal.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Hoover institution:

Every single American, and especially every single American veteran, and active duty member, should be incensed about the fact that Trump allowed Russian state media into the Oval Office while refusing American media the same courtesy. He even let the Russians bring personal cameras into the Oval, when it's forbidden for Americans to do so.

He is rubbing his collusion in the faces of us all, and laughing about it. Don't call yourself a patriot if you think this behavior is OK

Makes you wonder if the Good Citizens of Colo. are brushing up on their Russian, to be ready for the State-run jobs.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 12, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
If you all have any interest, and have not yet begun following Claude Taylor on Twitter, I strongly urge you to do so right.friggin.now
https://twitter.com/TrueFactsStated

Here are a few of his recent tweets as of now. I am quoting rather than putting images up, but you can easily see them for yourself.
1. From an IC source re: Steele Dossier. Putin put three people mentioned in the Dossier "in charge" of Trump. We have the names of two.

2. The first is Sergei Ivanof, mentioned throughout, who was head of the Russian Presidential Administration (PA) and reassigned in August.

3. The second one was with Trump in the Oval Office the other day(my emphasis): it's Sergey Lavrov, first mentioned in the Steele Dossier on page 28.

Do you know who the Deep State is? It's the professionals & patriots who are busy going about the business of ridding us of this menace.


Ppl have asked for my thoughts about Comey not testifying next week. First-do not worry about it. 2nd-He's picking his time/place to engage.


and current Pinned Tweet:
Everyone needs to be patient. You may not see it but the process that will end with Trump's resignation or impeachment has begun.



God bless these people pushing this information through, as it is not only giving the media the clues they simply would be UNABLE to see without these resources, but also from giving us hope when otherwise there would be despair and potential for violence.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 12, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
God bless these people pushing this information through, as it is not only giving the media the clues they simply would be UNABLE to see without these resources, but also from giving us hope when otherwise there would be despair and potential for violence.


Yes God bless ......

Hippy.... you should check out this link..... it will sort of balance you out.

https://aclj.org/

two sides to every story.....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 12, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
Guy...Two sides to the story... ? Trump constantly changes his story.. Which one should the voters believe..? Trump has major credibility issues...Trump is proving that telling one lie leads to another..
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
My first reaction would be to discount what that guy says because of his position and role in shaping our modern world. That said, I have to agree with everything he says in that video.
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
Ultimately you Americans are still some of the stoopidest people on the planet.

It's really not Trump or Putin or Netanyahu or Kim wrong un or etc etc.

It's no other than your own stoopid selves.

You created this sh!t yourselves unbeknownst to your own selves.

You don't even have a clue why you're on this planet nor how you really got here nor even what your real purpose here is.

Just keep staring at stoopid rocks and blaming everything outside of yer own selves, clueless gross materialists .......

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/05/12/exclusive-isis-the-mob-and-trump-more-history-than-we-knew/
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 12, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
Jim B..... good video. I agree with a lot of what he says.


Locker.... sorry I wrote the wrong person. Hippy-- Happy- whatever they go together.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 13, 2017 - 10:56am PT
You don't even have a clue why you're on this planet nor how you really got here nor even what your real purpose here is.

I am here to love, and to be loved.

Is that wrong?

Locker.... sorry I wrote the wrong person. Hippy-- Happy- whatever they go together.

Guyman - When people use a misspelled version of your name, they do so as a way to mock you. It is a low quality offensive tactic. Not only did you do it the first time, but couldn't be bothered to stop yourself from making the play again when called on it.

I'd like to suggest that any link you provide for me to be "balanced out" is not worth the click, since you don't seem to have any desire to use respectfulness in your communication efforts. Save your patronizing bullshit for another debate.

edit:
One of those I am following says Senator Hatch(4th in line) is being given security briefings, to enable to him to transition into POTUS. I have no idea whether it's accurate, but the author of the post IS the one who actually broke the whole FISA story those few months ago.

https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/13/trumps-presidency-ended-may-9th-hatch-getting-security-briefings/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Trump’s expected choice for the leading USDA science job isn’t a trained scientist


Sam Clovis is a former economics professor and talk radio host in Iowa who served as one of the Trump campaign’s first policy advisers. He's also a doubter of climate change.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
Judge orders government to turn over documents from Rudy Giuliani on travel ban

Those suing over the matter hope the communications will bolster their claim that the ban was motivated by animus toward Muslims.

Now, Giuliani hits the hot seat. Rumor is that he was on the short list to head the FBI. Say goodbye.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
And which party wants to find a remedy?

The painful truth about America’s humiliating dental-health divide

High-end cosmetic dentistry is soaring, and better-off Americans spend billions each year just to make their teeth a few shades whiter. But many who work full time still can’t afford dental care, and millions rely on charity clinics and hospital emergency rooms to treat painful and neglected teeth.

Of course, the GOP response is: "that's their choice!"
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
Since when did patriotism turn into "F*#k you, I got mine"?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/trump-asked-to-vet-sally-yatess-testimony-at-russia-hearing.html

The White House Asked for Veto Power Over Sally Yates’s Testimony at Russia Hearing

Earlier this month, the House Intelligence Committee invited Yates to share her account of those developments, in an open hearing on the Putin government’s alleged interference in the 2016 election. Such testimony might conceivably touch on why the Trump administration waited weeks after Yates’s warning to oust Flynn.

Yates accepted the committee’s invitation.

Then, the Trump administration informed her that she would need to clear her testimony with the president, according to documents obtained by the Washington Post.


Last Friday, Yates’s attorney reiterated her rejection of the DOJ’s analysis, and affirmed that she intended to testify at an open hearing scheduled for this Tuesday. By that point, Yates had also informed government officials that her testimony would probably contradict some statements made by the Trump administration.

That same day, House Intelligence Committee Chair Devin Nunes canceled Yates’s hearing.

On Tuesday, the White House denied that it had taken “any action to prevent Sally Yates from testifying.” Ostensibly, the White House does not consider warning Yates that her testimony would be illegal — absent the president’s consent — as such an action.

Regardless, the Trump administration appears to have discouraged Yates from testifying. Yates insisted on doing so, anyway. And then Nunes canceled the hearing where she was scheduled to speak.

When Nunes made that decision last week, his committee’s ranking Democrat accused him of trying to “choke off public info.”

The fact that Nunes appears to have canceled a hearing — that the White House wished to prevent — has further undermined the GOP lawmaker’s standing
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 14, 2017 - 09:43am PT
In Arizona, teachers can now be hired with absolutely no training in how to teach

Gov. Doug Ducey described the new law as a positive change that will entice “great teachers” into the classroom and help alleviate the state’s persistent shortage of educators. One retired teacher is calling it the “Warm Body Law."
Larry Nelson

Social climber
May 14, 2017 - 10:09am PT
Pretty funny Maureen Dowd opinion piece
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/opinion/sunday/trump-sticks-a-fork-in-comey.html?smid=pl-share
I am really, really good looking. You look good, too. You’re a tall drink of water. Like a giraffe crossed with Eliot Ness. What are you, 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9? Central casting. But don’t let your head get too big. Don’t be a showboat. Don’t be a grandstander. That’s my shtick. Do you play golf? How far do you drive? Trump hits it strong and long — 285 yards. Have some salad. We got you creamy vinaigrette. I always do Thousand Island.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 14, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
Claude Taylor and Louis Mensch both reporting there is a sealed endictment issued for Donald Trump, which is to be used to form the basis for his impeachment(he cannot be prosecuted for crimes while sitting as president).

Poor Donald. It must really feel awkward sitting in the White House and waiting, waiting waiting..... worse, though, for the workers in the place who have to interact with him.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 14, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
Schwarzenegger will fire Trump live on national TV saving Big Don from impeachment hearings and proving it's all rigged...Don will be declared a winner , proving again that Americans are stoopid...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
BREAKING NEWS!

Lord Cheeto is still a flaming assh0le.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:40am PT
Supreme Court will not consider reviving controversial North Carolina voter ID law

A lower court had said that state legislators acted “with almost surgical precision” in seeking to blunt the influence of African American voters. Last summer the Supreme Court had divided evenly on whether the law could be used in last fall’s election while the appeals continued.


What this means is that Gorsuch is not an automatic vote. This will shake Trump up.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Top lawmakers: If Trump has tapes, Congress needs access to them

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham and Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer were among leaders in both parties requesting that any recordings of White House conversations be turned over for review immediately. Sen. Mike Lee, a former federal prosecutor, said “it’s probably inevitable” that such tapes would be subpoenaed.


This is a YUUUUGE problem for Trump. He can't hide nor destroy the tapes, he'll have to turn them over. Supreme Court= 9-0 decision during Watergate.

The problem is, that tapes often capture a lot more than just what you're looking for. For example, it was Nixon's language that shocked and turned away many mid-western conservative supporters......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 07:55am PT
AND THE TRUMPIAN ANECDOTE OF THE DAY, WE-ARE-ALL-DOOMED EDITION: Shane Goldmacher brings us this doozy:

K.T. McFarland, the deputy national security adviser, [gave] Trump a printout of two Time magazine covers. One, supposedly from the 1970s, warned of a coming ice age; the other, from 2008, about surviving global warming, according to four White House officials familiar with the matter.

Trump quickly got lathered up about the media’s hypocrisy. But there was a problem. The 1970s cover was fake, part of an Internet hoax that’s circulated for years. Staff chased down the truth and intervened before Trump tweeted or talked publicly about it.

Good to see those White House staffers are on the case! But it would be nice if they would also consider trying to persuade Trump that climate change is real. A lot is riding on that, you know.
WBraun

climber
May 15, 2017 - 07:57am PT
How many čřáňklóóňš does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

You Americans are some f up idiots ......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 15, 2017 - 09:15am PT
How many Trump staffers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Unknown: It hasn't been accomplished yet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 10:10am PT
When The Carter Center began leading the international campaign to eradicate Guinea worm disease in 1986, there were an estimated 3.5 million cases in 21 countries in Africa and Asia. Today, that number has been reduced by more than 99.99 percent.

In 2016, 25* human cases of Guinea worm disease were reported worldwide. These numbers are *provisional until certified.

Jan. 1 – March 31, 2017
Worldwide Total:
3*

yep, no difference between the people in the two parties. Looking for similar things from the Reagan, Bush, Bush or Trump entities....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 15, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
I would rather pay the waste and corruption of the government, than the waste and corruption of a business along with the overhead of shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries.

Nobody likes bureaucracies. Having worked for both corporate and government bureaucracies, IMO, the difference is that government bureaucracy is basically benign while the corporate bureaucracy is actively out to f*#k you over.

Trump is now brilliantly combining the worst of both worlds. God save the Republic.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian diplomats

The president’s disclosures to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in their Oval Office meeting last week jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State

— an information-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, current and former U.S. officials said.

Trump appeared to be boasting of the “great intel” he receives when he described a looming terror threat, according to an official with knowledge of the exchange. As president, Trump has broad authority to declassify government secrets, making it unlikely that his disclosures broke the law.

Front Page Washington Post
drF

Trad climber
usa
May 15, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
All anonymous source BS from 'Dr'Krankl00n Ken. Zero proof as usual. Besides, it's all over the 'newz'. Why post this garbage? At the very least, cite your BS posts.

Fawk man....let this thread die. Get a life!!!

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 15, 2017 - 07:54pm PT

IMPEACHMENT!!!!!
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 15, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
I hope we're not witnessing the dismantling of our democracy. It could happen if the majority in power, the republicans, don't wake up to see that their careers are in a 'downward spiral' just like that of their unhinged president.

Look for the rats to begin jumping ship en masse very soon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 08:55pm PT



https://onthepublicrecord.org/2017/05/15/trump-wrecked-nunes/



trump wrecked nunes

Less than a year ago, Westlands and the ag boys of California water had themselves a perfectly good Congressman.

Nunes was able and willing to carry whatever legislation they could develop to advance their water preferences. But then Nunes found an even bigger authoritarian he could toady for, and Westlands lost their whole investment in Nunes.

Nunes was well-trained and well-placed; he could have done them a lot of good if Trump hadn’t turned his head.

Now poor Nunes is embarrassed, under investigation and won’t talk to the Fresno Bee.

If I were a big ag donor in the San Joaquin Valley, I’d be mad at Nunes for leaving his lane and floundering about. Now they’re going to have to buy another one, train him up and install him. What a waste of their time and money.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
May 15, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
Do underground bunkers in Yosemite even have light bulbs?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 15, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
We Could Have Been Canada (New Yorker Magazine)


Go for it, guys.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 15, 2017 - 10:10pm PT
Just for the first visit, Cosmic. After that, it's $600/5 minutes.

But I've been retired for 10 years, so I don't get the fun of fleecing poor people anymore......

Seriously, I think my average office visit was about $50, and lasted 15-25 minutes, depending.

But, oh, you were just trying to insult me. Ah well.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 15, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
rats jumping ship you say?

exhibit a... from the "lady" who wrote a book titled in trump we trust [for those not familiar, a one, anne coulter]:

Yeah, I mean, my fingers are still crossed. It’s not like I’m out yet, but boy, things don’t look good. I’ve said to other people, it’s as if we’re in Chicago and Trump tells us he’s going to get us to LA in six days. But for the first three days we are driving towards New York. Yes, it is true he can still turn around and get us to LA in three days, but I’m a little nervous. ...

If we just keep going to New York. Well again, I’ll say we had no choice, but the Trump-haters were right…It’s a nightmare. I can’t even contemplate that. Right now I’m still rooting for him to turn around and take us toward LA. ...

I’ll let him speak for himself, but I think all of the Trump true believers are petrified.



exhibit b... from the republican senate foreign relations committee chairman [a one, bob corker]:

The White House has got to do something soon to bring itself under control and in order, It's got to happen. Obviously they're in a downward spiral right now and they've got to figure out a way to come to grips [with] all that's happening.



exhibit c... a republican arizona senator, a one, jeff [the aptly named] flake:

I've spent the last several hours trying to find an acceptable rationale for the timing of Comey's firing. I just can't do it.



while it certainly isn't all of the rats just yet, there are some significant ones with one leg off the ship, just in case...



about four months ago i said, i'd bet trump would be gone [assassinated, resigned or impeached] by, i think it was, july of 2018...

at the rate trump's penchant for making enemies and leaving a trail of smoke and fire for said enemies to string him up with, is currently developing...

i'll be shocked if he is still in power at the end of this summer.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 07:43am PT
All anonymous source BS from 'Dr'Krankl00n Ken. Zero proof as usual. Besides, it's all over the 'newz'. Why post this garbage? At the very least, cite your BS posts.

Fawk man....let this thread die. Get a life!!!

Gee....I wouldn't call DONALD TRUMP anonymous....

Trump acknowledges ‘facts’ were shared with Russian envoys

Trump's tweets undercut his administration's frantic effort Monday night to contain the damaging report. The White House trotted out three senior administration officials to deny the very reports Trump openly confirmed less than 24 hours later.
By Ashley Parker

all front page, WaPost

This is why Trump’s loose tongue has compromised U.S. security

According to the rules of the intelligence game, in order to share this particular piece of classified information, the United States would have needed permission from the country that collected it. This information was not America's to share.
By Stephen Tankel

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”***
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 07:56am PT
Ken loves his daily brainwashing from the Washington Post and continually rehashing it here.

They tell him exactly how to think.

He believes all their daily bullsh!t without ever doing any serious deep research.

Nope no research at all, god knows how he even ever diagnosed his patients using such a formula.

Do not respond to this post you'll only further waste your time .....

How many čřáňklóóňš does it even take to screw in a lightbulb?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 08:39am PT
Foreign Leaders Have Realized Trump Is a Pushover

The president’s reported disclosure of classified information to Russia is only the latest example of the self-proclaimed great negotiator conceding to officials from overseas everything they want.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/trump-foreign-leaders-negotiate/526815/?utm_source=atlfb
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 08:42am PT
Why would anyone listen to an un-American non-American, spouting off about Americans, who he holds in total contempt?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 16, 2017 - 08:48am PT
And yer point is?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 09:04am PT
Is Werner even here legally?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 11:22am PT
http://www.dailynews.com/government-and-politics/20170516/trump-claims-absolute-right-to-share-info-with-russia

Trump claims ‘absolute right’ to share info with Russia


So he admits it. Undercut his staff, again.

The news reverberated around the world as countries started second-guessing their own intelligence-sharing agreements with the U.S.

A senior European intelligence official told the AP his country might stop sharing information with the United States if it confirms that Trump shared classified details with Russian officials. Such sharing “could be a risk for our sources,” the official said.

Trump later was informed that he had broken protocol and White House officials placed calls to the National Security Agency and the CIA looking to minimize any damage.

The U.S. official said that Trump boasted about his access to classified intelligence in last week’s meeting with Lavrov and Kislyak. An excerpt from an official transcript of the meeting reveals that Trump told them, “I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day,” he said.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 16, 2017 - 11:28am PT
Ken M .... I think you are getting this all twisted around the axle.

WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:33am PT
The U.S. official said

Typical Ken believes a non-identified source as usual.

Poor Ken.

Now he'll look for it?

LOL .....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 11:34am PT
Ken M just appears to have a higher tolerance to continue caring in the midst of ongoing painful revelations, whereas most people are worn down and choose to ignore it or build a layer of personal insulation to not feel hurt by the various setbacks in the advancement of civilization.

Some people think they would be happy about being back in the good old days of true freedom, and what they don't realize, is that total freedom screws just about everybody except the strongest few.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2017 - 11:42am PT
Ken M just appears to have a higher tolerance to continue caring in the midst of ongoing painful revelations

Yes, he cares.

But when your sources are full of sh!t then your cares become ultimately useless.

But most of you just plain toe the line of the clueless bullsh!t mainstream media ......
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 11:52am PT
Emoluments clause is a pretty big issue of government integrity, and our national policy clarity and enforcement of this issue should be front and center. It should be flat out illegal and a legal bar from holding office if any public office holder has financial interests not disclosed to the public. Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life, and lost his spot in the Hall of Fame, for similar transgressions (betting which is essentially a creation of a financial interest which may be at odds with the performance of one's duties), but this had no practical impact on the life of anyone. In the case of our politicians, the transgressions can potentially impact every single one of us in a long term way. Here is a pretty awesome public statement of protest.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
monolith

climber
state of being
May 16, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
“I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day”

That's hilarious, but mega sad,sad,sad. Now we find out Trump is sharing Israeli sourced intel with the Russians.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 16, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
And, apparently, he several times asked Comey to stop the investigation of Flynn's activities during the Trump campaign, which seems pretty clear obstruction of Justice.

Pretty much what Watergate was about, It took two years for Watergate to build to this level of frenzy.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 16, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
Meanwhile back on planet Weiner....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 16, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
In an earlier post, there was an assertion that we needed a lot more physicians, a position with which I took exception. Today, there was an opinion essay on the subject in Journal of the AMA (JAMA). It's behind a paywall, but some excerpts:


On the supply side, are there too few physicians? A simple calculation estimating the number of physicians needed to care for all US residents suggests no physician shortage.

The United States currently has more than 900 000 active physicians. Of these, 441 735 are primary care physicians and 484 384 are specialists. Approximately 12% of primary care physicians work part time, leaving slightly more than 388 000 full-time primary care physicians. Of these, nearly 80 000 are pediatricians.

According to recommendations from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the average physician panel size—the number of unique patients under the care of an individual physician—should be between 1500 and 2000. A recent Medical Group Management Association survey of primary care physicians found that the median panel size was 1906 and the average was 2184.

Conservatively, if each of the 388 000 full-time primary care physicians cares for an average of 1500 patients, they could care for an estimated 583 million people. Today, there are 240 million adults in the United States.

Even at the low panel size of 1500 patients, all adults could be cared for by 160 000 primary care physicians; at a panel size of 2000 patients, the United States would require an estimated 120 000 full-time primary care physicians.

Similarly, the 73 million US children younger than 18 years could be cared for by an estimated 49 000 pediatricians, assuming that each provides care for 1500 patients, or by an estimated 36 500 pediatricians with panel sizes of 2000 patients. Add to these conservative calculations the care provided by the more than 50 000 part-time primary care physicians and there seems a significant surplus, rather than a shortage, of full-time primary care physicians.

Can Physicians Care for All Patients in the United States?

Another way of determining if there are enough physicians is to approach the issue from the demand side. Each year, there are 930 million US physician visits, 54.6% (507 million) of them to primary care physicians. If each primary care physician sees patients in 30-minute appointments for 6 hours a day (12 appointments per day) to ensure patients are thoroughly examined and visits are not rushed, then 43 million primary care physician workdays per year are needed (507 million visits divided by 12 visits per day). If physicians work an average of 200 days per year, then an estimated 215 000 active, full-time primary care physicians would be needed for all the primary care office visits in the United States. That number is nearly identical to the estimated 209 000 internists, family physicians, and pediatricians (160 000 + 49 000) needed based on the conservative panel size calculations.

From either a supply or a demand perspective, enough physicians are available for all US patients. Given this balance, and assuming these estimates are accurate, there is no obvious physician shortage.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 17, 2017 - 08:16am PT
Ken .... good article, your union at work. Gee-wiz.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2017 - 08:36am PT
here is no obvious physician shortage.

Especially at most country clubs! On the other hand, when I moved my mom near me I had to find new docs for her. I went online to peruse those that take her insurance. All I can say is

"Can I buy a vowel?"

I would conservatively estimate that 75% of the docs offered didn't attend a med school that I would put in the same league as UCLA or USC.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 08:52am PT
Putin offers to help Trump by providing details of the meeting.

So completely bizarre.

This 'winning' is to much to take. Please, can we lose a little some of the time?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2017 - 08:57am PT
Locker, there's a shortage of qualified physicians.
Maybe yer happy going to see Dr Demento but I'm knott!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 09:08am PT
What field that requires skill is not afflicted with a shortage of good practitioners and a bunch of bench-warmers? This circumstance seems to be a basic axiom of humanity.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 17, 2017 - 09:44am PT

The current American CEO, Trump, is an arrogant, aggressive man who believes what he himself feels and thinks. His preferred position seems to be American dictator. He is doing his best to undermine American media and American democratic institutions. He will have a hard time undermining American media, but if he is given one more period (Americans love guns and shooting, so he will need a popular war), then he can do a lot of damage to American democratic institutions...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 10:03am PT
These are valid points on the issue of accessibility to "well trained" physician. However, be cautious of your bias. The absolute smartest physician I've ever encountered, trained in India. The wisest, is a black man.

There is also an illusion created by some physicians "busy-ness". As is true with many workers, where one is in charge of the volume of business, there is a tendency to increase the business to fill the time available.

So let's say a person takes a longstanding prescription of thyroid hormone. How often do they need to have their blood tested and see a doc? Generally, once a year. But I've seen docs drag them back every other month, and will not refill their prescriptions without the visit. The unwitting patient thinks of that as "thorough". It is generally referred to as "churning".
It's an extraordinarily risk-free way to boost income.

VERY common, particularly among those with light schedules.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 10:06am PT
Putin offers to provide Congress with details of Trump disclosures to Russian envoys

The provocative offer was met with scoffs on Capitol Hill as lawmakers considered the idea that the Kremlin could help shed light on the disclosures of reportedly highly classified intelligence.

This is extraordinary!

Can you imagine, if he supplies something that reinforces Trump, Trump owes him!

If he supplies something that hurts Trump, he has destabilized the US Gov't.

Without firing a shot!

Will anyone fall for the trap?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 17, 2017 - 10:23am PT
Yup, it's called Party First!!

They consider Putin their Bro now...it's all good!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 17, 2017 - 10:41am PT
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 17, 2017 - 11:00am PT
And rural schisthole states like Idaho don't attract as many doctors, per this U.S.A Today ranking that has Idaho as the 4th worst state for doctors per 100,000 population. Mississippi of course is the worst & the best ratio state, Massachusetts, has nearly twice as many doctors per 100,000 as Idaho does.

4. Idaho
> Doctors per 100,000 people: 172.5
> Medical students per 100,000 people: N/A
> Pct. without health insurance: 17.7% (11th highest)
> Life expectancy: 79.2 years (20th highest)

Although Idaho's doctor shortage is among the worst in the nation, the state's lack of medical residents is potentially just as problematic. There are just 3.9 medical residents per 100,000 people in Idaho — the second-worst figure in the U.S. and well below the national figure of 35.8 per 100,000. The Pending retirement of doctors in the state is also an issue. In a report on Idaho's doctor shortage, NPR noted that 41.5% of physicians in the state are 55 and older. Idaho is one of just a few states that has no accredited medical school.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/20/doctors-shortage-least-most/1644837/

Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 17, 2017 - 11:11am PT
This explains what happened to Americas health care system. A must read. Wow, everyone was asleep at the wheel, and old Tricky Dick slipped one by us all along with Edgar Kaiser of Kaiser Permanente. I never knew this....unbelievable.
https://www.sott.net/article/351109-Thanks-Nixon-Before-1973-it-was-against-US-law-to-make-a-profit-off-of-health-care

We need to wake the f*#k up and go after these criminal organizations. It basically makes all other discussions moot. There is no reason to have private HMO's. This is evil and greed on a scale that's hard to imagine.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
As usual, SOTT is not a dependable source of information.

Private, for profit health insurance companies started in the 1940s.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2007/03/a_short_history_of_health_care.html

Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 17, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
As usual, the truth hurts. SOTT is a releiable source for news, you just can't have your head to far up your a*#. According to your article, it all started back in the early day, and your article does not even mention the HMOA 73 legislation, so right there I call Bullsh#t. It is all directly attributable to the legislation Nixon signed in 1971, and if that act was revoked, and healthcare was made not for profit, and anyone associated with healthcare had to work for the care of the patient, and not for profit, then we would be far better off as a country. There can be no question on that whatsoever.
Just because you find a article on Chatterbox, which you did Monolith, doesn't make it correct or accurate. Its another smoke screen article that does not delve into the root of the problem, and tries to take issue somewhere else, then the exact cause. I would not be surprised if the author of your article is paid by a HMO for writing it.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
You'll find lots of links showing the history of for profit health insurance long before Nixon.

Dig in there and step away from 'The Truth' type sources. You've been pushing Sott for some time now. It's just plain creepy when you look into it. (The founders talking to aliens and channeling with their future self)

And yes, it would be nice to end the for profit part of health care.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 17, 2017 - 03:03pm PT

I would conservatively estimate that 75% of the docs offered didn't attend a med school that I would put in the same league as UCLA or USC.

You realize, I hope, that half of all doctors have to be below average.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
On Trump

“Before he makes any decision, he posts on Twitter.
He tweets and then checks the responses in order to make his decision."

ROFLMAO !!!!!

Modern POTUS ... for the people by the people.

Way too funny .......
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
May 17, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
to special prosecuter Mueller - LOCK HIM UP!


thank you Rod Rosenstein. This man has a huge set of balls (this guy down here, not that loser up there)



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
And rural schisthole states like Idaho don't attract as many doctors, per this U.S.A Today ranking that has Idaho as the 4th worst state for doctors per 100,000 population. Mississippi of course is the worst & the best ratio state, Massachusetts, has nearly twice as many doctors per 100,000 as Idaho does.

Well, Idaho chooses not to spend the money on a medical school and residency training. Why is this a problem? They've made a choice, they're adults.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
Idaho is not as sick as the rest of the country.

Thus they don't need as many doctors ...... :-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Then why are we talking about Idaho?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Special Prosecutor?


McCain says this is as big a deal as Watergate......
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
McCain is an azzhole and a criminal.

He should be the first one to go to jail for the criminal murders of all those civilians he caused in Ukraine ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 17, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
More importantly, McCain is a Republican.

The wall is crumbling....
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 17, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
I wonder if Trump is tired of winning yet?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 17, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
WBraun...McCain has already done time in jail in Nam serving his country...Please share about McCains Ukraine thing....
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
Go away Johny stalker.

You're a useless fool.

Go look up McCriminals buddies in Nam he fked over.

Go look up all the veterans he fked over.

You're one brainwashed idiot ....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
WBraun...I was asking you to hear your side of the story but instead i got the big knee jerk...Thanks for the open dialogue...
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
There's no my side of the story.

Go find the story .....

You won't do it .....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 17, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
BRaun... The story is yours... Share your wisdom..
F

climber
away from the ground
May 17, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
"Yes your honor. I would like to plead 'FAKE NEWS' to all counts."

Even if Cosmic can't work, he won't ever go hungry.
Plenty of crow to eat.
monolith

climber
state of being
May 17, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
RottenJonny, Braun is a huuuge fan of 'Veterans Today', a conspiracy and fake news site. They hate Mccain. Google 'veterans today mccain'
F

climber
away from the ground
May 18, 2017 - 12:22am PT
Comic, is there such a thing as a "hinged liberal"...?
Your superior knowledge on the subject is deferred to...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 18, 2017 - 07:48am PT
House Majority Leader McCarthy told colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump


Kevin McCarthy made the politically explosive assertion in a private conversation on Capitol Hill in June 2016 with his fellow GOP leaders. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan interjected and stopped the conversation from exploring McCarthy’s assertion, saying: “No leaks. ... This is how we know we’re a real family here.”
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2017 - 10:49am PT
Here is a national policy issue: why is it not a crime to use a political office to further obviously provable lies? Holders of all political offices must be accountable to a more stringent standard because the consequences of their actions affect so many more people. And if it is already a crime, why is it not immediately enforced? There is room, while giving respect to the complexity of reality and the variety of perspectives, to honor truth and facts. If we surrender that, we are truly in for dark times.

Just as a reality check, here is a collection of obviously provable lies that do not serve a greater good or national interest, and the President clearly knows that what he is saying is untrue:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list

How did we as a society reach a state where this is acceptable? What greater good or lesser evil are we choosing when this collection of facts was the best path forward for our nation? What do we need to do differently as a nation to steer our way toward honesty and integrity?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 18, 2017 - 11:11am PT
What do we need to do differently as a nation to steer our way toward honesty and integrity?



For starters.... the cray cray cray Democrats can calm down for just a moment. The cray cray cray cray Republicans also.

WTF is wrong with you people?

As much as you all hate it-- Donald Trump is the President, "Commander in Chief" ..... The most powerful person in the world. In that capacity.... he can share the nuclear football with anybody, he has the power to declassify anything- on the spot- if he thinks it is necessary. Only him.....

Chucky Schummer can go and pound sand, he can call for transcripts all day long.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 18, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
It surprises me that there are still people standing behind the dumbass. Now, I can understand party loyalty, but in case you haven't noticed, the GOP are running from the man this last few days.

I do feel sorry for those who voted for the man in good faith, in hopefulness for the future of this country. News flash - it was a lie. The fker will say ANYTHING to get what he wants, when he wants it. That's a relevant strategy in his book. How in the hell anyone can consider themselves a xian and defend that lack of moral and ethical behavior s beyond me.

Yu r man is going down, and there's precious little time left to jump ship and save whatever smidgeon of face you have left. What? Are you actually going to stand alongside him and say he has been railroaded by the Dems who just couldn't stand to have lost an election they ought have won? REALLY???? If yes, then I guess we really ought to believe that God protects drunkards and idiots.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 18, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Guy,

The cray cray Dems are not the issue here. They just smell blood in the water. Trump was never ready for this. Most people in America could see that. The pressure is too much. He just keeps digging and digging because he doesn't know what else to do.

I feel sad for America. The crappy state of American politics and the Russians drove us to do something really stupid. Now we have suck it up and get on a better track as soon as we can.

We really need to clean house, but partisanship will make that almost impossible.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 18, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
*Trump was warned by Sally Yates, STRONGLY, about M Flynn.

*Flynn himself warned the White House that he was under Federal investigation for his ties to Turkey.

*President Obama warned Trump personally, after the election, about Flynn.

Trump hired him anyway.

What a twit.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 18, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
The Russian's have done their job
destabilize our Democracy

Trump was the obvious way to make that happen
monolith

climber
state of being
May 18, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Trumps going down. Not good for his brand. Poor Ivanka. Who would wear her collection now?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 18, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
House Majority Leader McCarthy told colleagues in 2016: ‘I think Putin pays’ Trump


Kevin McCarthy made the politically explosive assertion in a private conversation on Capitol Hill in June 2016 with his fellow GOP leaders. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan interjected and stopped the conversation from exploring McCarthy’s assertion, saying: “No leaks. ... This is how we know we’re a real family here.”

The best part is that before publishing the account, the reporter asked Ryan and McCarthy to comment. Both denied the conversation ever happened.

The reporter called both back for confirmation, and got the same answer. No such conversation happened.

Then the reporter called back again with the information that he had listened to a tape of the exchange.
Caught in the lie, they claimed it was a joke. The reporter said it didn't sound like one.

Cell phones are a wonderful tool.
WBraun

climber
May 18, 2017 - 05:33pm PT
Russians haven't done sh!t to you stoopid brainwashed idiots who are no better than Trump .....

It's so scary to see how stoopid and brainwashed you people really are here in America.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 18, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
The republicans are faced with getting rid of Trump now, and maybe getting 6-8 months of semi normality under Pence before the mid terms, or riding the current shitshow to its logical conclusion (impeachment, removal, or just bogged down in incompetence). I'd probably take my chances with the first option.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 18, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said after a closed-door Senate meeting on Thursday that the federal investigation into alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian operatives now appears to be a criminal investigation.

“It was a counterintelligence investigation before now. It seems to me now to be considered a criminal investigation,” he said after a meeting with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/lindsey-graham-trump-russia-investigation-has-evolved-into-a-criminal-investigation/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 18, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
WBraun... Quit stalking us stoopid brainwashed crankloons...
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 18, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
Time to get this thread a buddy bench. Trump could of used one 65 years ago...because everyone needs a true friend.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 18, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
The republicans are faced with getting rid of Trump now, and maybe getting 6-8 months of semi normality under Pence before the mid terms, or riding the current shitshow to its logical conclusion (impeachment, removal, or just bogged down in incompetence). I'd probably take my chances with the first option.

I think that it's politically in their best interest to delay the inevitable. Put Pence in charge now and he'll have time to be blamed for anything that happens up to Nov 2018. Keep Trump in place until the primaries, then take all the wind out of the democrat sails when Trump discovers a special rare medical condition that forces him to relinquish the post.

My money says Trump can't last nearly that long. Then I don't know what scares me more, a disgruntled Trump teaming up with a bunch of armed conspiracy nuts, or the religious zealot who will take his place.

TE
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
May 18, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
It is time to initiate the Basil Fawlty Award for the person who digs himself deeper every time he opens his mouth or Twitter account.
My nominee?
You will have to guess
JC Marin

Trad climber
CA
May 18, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
Is America great again...or what?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 19, 2017 - 08:58am PT
Well ... Thank all of you "political experts" for your keen insight.

It's all the same sort of gibberish and groundless speculation that you all tossed out prior to Hillery's guaranteed "Victory"..... So lets just see how it goes.

Yes... lets get started on the mid-terms.... democratic landslide????--somehow I think its highly unlikely.

But we will see.

well back to work... happy Friday

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2017 - 09:55am PT
I too think that Trump is bad for our country. But he is just an ugly symptom of a deeper problem. Don't forget that roughly half the voters in America thought he was the least evil option. What does that say about how our government is meeting the needs of the people?

The growing divide between rich and poor, privileged and deprived, will exacerbate the ping-pong effect of a dissatisfied electorate voting for the opposite of what's in power at every opportunity.

I don't think Bernie Sanders is a human on a pedestal or someone who should be worshipped or blindly followed, but I think he is the only one who put his finger on the pulse of what is wrong with our country, and had an inclusive vision to make it better for everyone, including the people to whom he didn't effectively target his message.

I'm concerned that the main current of the Democratic Party will seize on the small-minded vengeance and bloodletting and lose sight of the core issues and policies that make it, in my mind, a more effective path (of the two biggest parties) to happiness for the most people in our country.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 19, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
Witches are nasty women

Stop it.

You'll make the munchkins laugh again.
Norton

Social climber
May 19, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
“The dominant reaction to Trump right now is mockery,” Jacob Heilbrunn, the editor of the conservative journal the National Interest, told the meeting at the German Foreign Office here while moderating a panel on Trump’s foreign policy that dealt heavily on the difficulty of divining an actual policy amid the spectacle. Heilbrunn, whose publication hosted Trump’s inaugural foreign policy speech in Washington during last year’s campaign, used the ‘L’ word too. “The Trump administration is becoming an international laughingstock.” Michael Werz, a German expert from the liberal U.S. think tank Center for American Progress, agreed, adding he was struck by “how rapidly the American brand is depreciating over the last 20 weeks.”
Norton

Social climber
May 19, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
"Guyman supporting Trump?

I don't think so."...

really? you have not been following the various political threads then

Guyman along with others such as Cosmic, as unapologetically pro Trump

Guyman is so irritated with all the negative, anti Trump postings on this thread that lately he has posted in support of Trump and just can't seem to understand why Trump's behavior as President should bother anyone, because according to guyman he is doing such a good job
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 19, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
Don't know what to tell you moose.

Donald Trump is exactly the sort of wrench I wanted tossed into the great big stinking machine.

Exactly

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 19, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
I just talked to a friend in Oregon. She retired early, and got Obamacare. It is about the same as my employer healthcare as to cost: $425.00/month, and she said it has been great healthcare.

People like her or me, a self employed person, find it almost impossible to find decent insurance. Especially if you have a pre-existing condition. She had a stroke once, and was lucky that it didn't cause any damage. Now she has to carry that around for the rest of her life, even though her blood pressure is low, and she lives a very healthy lifestyle.

Trumpcare is scary. State's can decide about pre-existing conditions and other things. He had to make it fit the Freedom Caucus to pass in Congress.

You can be certain that the Senate will totally re-write the bill before it comes back to conference.

As to pre-existing conditions, the older you get, the more likely that you will have one, even if it doesn't cost your provider a dime.

The real scandal is that American healthcare costs are double what they are in the developed world, it is in no way a free market, and there is nothing to hold costs down. I had to go to the ER with super low blood pressure last year. They gave me a bag of IV fluids, and my BP came up, as it always does by late morning. I walked 4 miles home in 100 degree heat after only 2 hours in the ER.

I saw the statement of cost that they hit my insurance company for: 2200 dollars. For a bag of IV fluids and no other tests.

That is freaking insane. I broke a leg in the 80's, without insurance, and it cost me only 250 bucks. These days it would be 5000.00.

The lack of a free market has caused costs to spiral out of control. If there were some way to make it a free market, like, say, lumber, costs would plummet.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 19, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Another thing is the "provider write-off." Your insurance company gets billed, and the doc, pharmacy, or hospital, lowers the cost vastly..by around 60-70%. The insurance company is charged MUCH less than the full cost.

If you don't have insurance, you are on the hook for the full cost.

Healthcare costs are out of control because it isn't a free market in any way. Even conservatives, which love a free market, won't stop that. They take too much money from the healthcare industry to do anything.
WBraun

climber
May 19, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
The criminals in congress aren't gunna fix sh#t.

Yep, so true.

All because of stoopid spineless sterile Americans.

They are best educated and most brainwashed fools on the planet.

They are good at drinking beer and koolaid, then smoking dope and then drooling.

They are expert at talking all day long and fixing nothing only making everything worst than before.

They dazzle you with bullsh!t masqueraded as some kind of intelligence, and everyone swallows their garbage as truth.

Stoopid stoopid Americans ......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 19, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
So it looks like the NYT may be saving America, one buttphuk article at a time.

I love it.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
May 19, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
You can be certain that the Senate will totally re-write the bill before it comes back to conference.

So I heard on NPR that Ryan hasn't given the House bill to the Senate yet. He is waiting for the cost analysis by the CBO. There is the possibility that the House would have to vote on the bill again once thew CBO report is made public.
Norton

Social climber
May 19, 2017 - 06:43pm PT
^^ that's right

because if the bill does not reduce the debt by at least two billion dollars over 10 yrs it must be voted again

John Boehner was right, his own Republicans will NOT repeal Obamacare because they don't know how to govern to be able to pass their own healthcare legislation
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 19, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
So little Donald, the middle school playground bully, is on his first official field trip to the zoo. Meanwhile the teachers are busting him for hiding bags of sh!t in his desk.
I swear to sweet baby jeebus, nothing so serious has ever been so funny!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 19, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
Cosmic, it must be a drab existence, where you only interact with others to spew hate and venom.

Have a nice day, for a change.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 19, 2017 - 11:17pm PT
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/shields-brooks-barrage-trump-revelations/

Interesting commentary on the week.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2017 - 09:54am PT
^^^^ Nothing like trenchant analysis.
F

climber
away from the ground
May 20, 2017 - 09:59am PT
^^^^^
No kidding...
Especially when it comes from brainwashed and weak minded rubes who swallow the sh#t that is shoveled out of the Faux news machine like its peanut butter cookies.


Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!

May 19, 2017 - 06:46pm PT

#AndersonPOOPER
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 20, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
The 1% need to wake up...

https://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_beware_fellow_plutocrats_the_pitchforks_are_coming
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
Oh, rest assured, they are wide awake. State and local tax revenues fell this year because the onepercenters' accountants had them defer income to next year in anticipation of lower rates. They didn't get rich by being stoopid!

BTW, Locker, yer Democrats have done such a fine job in Illinois that it is looking increasingly likely that the state will join Puerto Rico in the Bankruptcy Sin Bin. Proud effort that!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 20, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
Looks like trump has a new problem

An independent commission is being formed to investigate
"Obstruction of Justice", an Impeachable offence

First, the firing of Comey is OOJ
and just to dig his grave

A day later, the president told Russian’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and U.S. Ambassador Sergey Kislyak that, “I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job.”

“I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off. … I’m not under investigation,” Trump added, according to an official White House document summarizing the meeting, as reported Friday by the New York Times.

“There is no question that the President’s comments as reported will be examined by the special counsel and his team, to determine whether or not the president had a corrupt intent in his dealings with Comey,”

One veteran Justice Department investigator said the summary account of the meeting “sounds like obstruction of justice to me.”

“It is the definition of obstruction; an effort to impede or prevent an investigation,” the investigator said.

the allegations on "Obstruction of Justice" are completely different than the possible Russian Collusion being investigated by the new "Special Counsel" investigation led by Rob Mueller
WBraun

climber
May 20, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
One veteran Justice Department investigator said ..

always an anonymous pussy says, never a real person.

A govt. insider said ......

Again another anonymous pussy says.

No wonder you Americans are so fked up and fall for every bullsh!t spew from your MSM brainwashing machine loon sources ....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 21, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
That healthcare bill was just a paper airplane. It has no chance of passing in the Senate without significant tweaking. Then it will come back to the House, and the Freedom Caucus will kill it.

Reason? They want Obamacare gone. Not replaced. Gone. Get the government out of the healthcare business.

I know that medicare is good stuff. Every doctor accepts medicare, while a lot of them will not take medicaid. They are two different programs. Medicare functions very well.

Why not expand it to all, as Bernie Sanders suggests?

Right now, medicare goes to retired people on Social Security, and those on Social Security Disability. It isn't that expensive. We see it taken out of our paychecks as part of the FICA withholding. It is only 1.45%, and that is matched by your employer, so it is 2.9%. That is totally free to its users.

People pay for Obamacare. I know that there are subsidies for the poor, but all three people I know who are on Obamacare are self employed professionals. All three have said that is is good, and costs about the same as it does for those who have employer provided healthcare: 400-500 dollars a month.

Obamacare was passed without a single Republican vote. Because of that, it never really went through any conference committee. The senate had to vote for the same bill as the house.

Anyone with any sense knows that the really important legislation is almost always bipartisan. Obamacare could be a good law if it were only tweaked and corrected. That is political poison for any Republican, though, so it will not happen, even though in large part, Obamacare is a copy of Romney's Massachusetts "Romneycare." Which apparently is quite popular.

No matter what, it must be paid for. We must stop buying things on credit in this country. The debt, among every problem, is the one that scares me the most. So many great empires have gone down by going broke. Look at the Soviet Union.

So we can't get something for nothing. We will have to pay.

I was just reading about Rumsfeld's great idea that Iraqi oil would pay for the Iraq war. Nope. It cost us 1.7 TRILLION DOLLARS, and there were NO WMD's. Thinking like that is what will kill us. Yes. A note made by Rumsfeld on 9-11, trying to link Saddam to the attacks, ended up turning into a huge war, with no winner. Both countries lost blood and treasure, and Iraq is nearly a failed state. All from one idea by one guy: Donald Rumsfeld.

Beware of those who want to erase Dodd-Frank, too. It is the only thing that is keeping us from paying for another meltdown. The market always crashes now and then. Stockholders should feel that loss, not the public. Having too big to fail banks is a really bad idea. That was another good trillion dollars down the tube, and of course those bank CEO's got tens of millions each in bonuses after their banks would have collapsed without Obama's intervention.

It saved us from a depression, but vastly inflated the debt. I doubt Obama had that in mind when he took office a few months prior. Giving all of that money away, instead of use it on social programs that the left likes giving out. And I'm not against most of those programs. I just think that they need to all be paid for.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 21, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
As for the Trump-Russia connection, the right is actually relieved by the independent council. Unlike a commission, like the 9-11 commission, or the Challenger disaster Commission, which make all of their findings public, an independent council does not. He will simply report if anyone broke the law or not. Actual collusion with the Russians is probably not even a crime, so the council won't tell us much. Probably the only thing that will shake out is whether someone registered as a foreign agent or not.

A commission is what we need. An Account of what happened. The senate and house intelligence committees are not up to this task. Especially the house which is too partisan.

The right often says that not a single vote was changed. By that, they are saying that the actual voting machines were not tampered with. It is a false statement, though. The Wikileaks stuff really did hurt Clinton in the election, and those were the emails stolen by the Russians. I'm really down on Wikileaks right now. Trump, in a campaign rally, famously said, "I LOVE Wikileaks!" and would quote embarrassing emails in his rallies.

Because of them, at least in part, we have an incompetent president, who is simply an impulsive liar. There was a piece in one of the papers recently documenting almost 600 lies that the President has told. He is a serial liar, and almost pathologically addicted to bragging about his "huge" win.

The truth is that he won by about 70,000 key votes in only several key counties. He doesn't believe that he lost the popular vote. He claims that there were 3 million fraudulent voters. This has been looked at already, and actual voter fraud is so rare that it isn't a problem. Still, some cling to that notion.

George Will was on the tube the other night. They were all yacking about another zinger coming out of the White House. This is basically what he said:

" The American people decided to treat the presidency of the United States as an entry level political position. This is what they get."

I could not have said it better.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 21, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
Unlike a commission, like the 9-11 commission, or the Challenger disaster Commission, which make all of their findings public, an independent council does not.

Im not sure where you got this idea, but it is not based on the history of previous counsels or previous committees and commissions. Counsel actions during investigations aren't particularly hidden, and much of the work they do becomes public when things like the interviewing of witnesses and the seeking of subpoenas occur. They have in the past leaked information to embarrass presidents, and more often to pressure current and future witnesses. They love the perp walk as a tool and have used plea bargains and threats of prosecution to get witnesses to go public. Judge Sirica's harsh sentences of the watergate perps is what broke the stonewall, when convicted watergate folks decided to talk for reduced sentences.


And Commitees/Commisions often have political agendas to keep information from public view. ( I won't get into tinfoil hat territory by discussing inconsistencies in the Warren Commision report)

Nixon fired Archibald Cox because of the public furor he caused in issueing a subpoena for the Oval Office tapes after the Supreme Court had decided that the select committee's subpoena of those same tapes violated the principle of separation of powers. To get Cox fired Nixon had to fire two Attorneys General ( Richardson, Ruckleshouse) before Bork complied with his order and made himself toxic for a Supreme Court nomination. The Cox Subpoena and subsequent very public ruling by the Supremes that it was valid was the leverage the committee used to get Nixon to release the tapes, not their own Subpoena. ( Nixon thought he could manage the tapes to refute John Dean's testimony, which they didn't)

And the select committee wasn't exactly forthcoming when the committee uncovered the real motive for the watergate breakin was a $100,000 payout to Nixon through Bebe Rebozo from billionaire Howard Hughs but never made it public ($100 K was real money in 1972). Hunt & Co. broke into Larry O'brien's office because O'brien had worked for Hughs and they wanted to know what he knew about it.

And the reason they didn't make it public was that Hughs also gave $100,000 to Hubert Humphreys and Sam Ervin knew that.

Neither Howard Baker, the Republican ranking member, nor Sam Ervin, the Democratic chairman, were interested in making the payouts public.

And you can find similar parallels in the Iran-Contra, Whitewater, and Comey's own investigation of Hilary. The justice department is pretty transparent whether it is independent counsels or attorneys general. It's a public and often political job, not a secret grand jury type affair.
Though all those investigations were supposed to be kept confidential, none were, as the Lewinski episode demonstrates most graphically. Her involvement with Clinton was uncovered from a tangential lawsuit involving Linda Tripp and pursued and made public by Special prosecutor Ken Starr. Remember, Starr was tasked with investigating Clinton Real Estate deals and got nowhere with that.

That Comey didn't out Flynn before the election was the anomaly, not the rule.

History shows there isn't much control over what information gets out and by whom, but it sure doesn't follow what you learned in your middle school civics class.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
May 21, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
So Toby Keith was part of the entertainment last night in SA. I didn't think rednecks liked moozelims. Furthermore, wasn't it Keith who was singing all those patriotic songs after 9-11. I smell hypocrisy.
I guess trump only likes moozies that give Ivanka money.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 21, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
Trump reveals how he really makes policy decisions....

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 21, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
Looks like Melania gave the shiek the frozen hot dog treatment...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 21, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
Now he's doing Harry Potter stuff?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 22, 2017 - 11:38am PT
Meanwhile, Flynn will plead fifth and refuse to hand over documents in response to congressional Subpoena.

Trump comments.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 22, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
Over the weekend, Jared Kushner was credited with negotiating a $110 billion arms deal with the Saudis. On Same Weekend as Record-Breaking Arms Deal, Saudis Announced $100 Million Donation to Ivanka Fund

http://www.alternet.org/right-wing/same-weekend-record-breaking-arms-deal-saudis-announced-100-million-donation-ivanka-fund

Que up the video of Trump naming Hillary corrupt for accepting money for her Foundation from the terrible women repressive and gay killer Saudis.

Everything he said during the campaign was a lie and turns him into a complete hypocrite

but we knew that already
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 22, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
Que up the video of Trump naming Hillary corrupt for accepting money for her Foundation from the terrible women repressive and gay killer Saudis.

'K.

Here ya go.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

So...Crooked Ivanka?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 23, 2017 - 10:19am PT
True Tax reform has nothing to do with cutting rates on the rich. Reform would mean cutting writeoffs and loopholes that allow crap like this:

1998 Trump buys 436 acres of undeveloped generic land from another real estate holding company in Westchester and Putnam Counties for $2 million.
He intends to build a golf course, which falls through.
Journal News reported.

In 2006, he decided to donate the land to the state of New York to use as a park. Trump said he believed the land was worth $100 million, and in exchange he was able to use the donation as a tax write-off.

Apparently no tax officials call him out on this wild claim.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2181686/brief-history-donald-j-trump-state-park
https://www.newsmax.com/Headline/donald-trump-state-park-signs-vacant-land/2015/08/10/id/669393/
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 23, 2017 - 10:51am PT
Furthermore, wasn't it Keith who was singing all those patriotic songs after 9-11. I smell hypocrisy.

It was also Toby Full Of Sh#t Keith who performed his big hit Made In America at the inauguration while playing a Takamine guitar. What a dick.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 23, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
It seems to be assumed an effort at impeachment would run if not smoothly, predictably. But that might not be the case. Instead, there might be a constitutional crises involving significant changes, like the Snowflakes' desire to eliminate the Electoral College. Be careful what you wish for.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 23, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 23, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
It seems to be assumed an effort at impeachment would run if not smoothly, predictably. But that might not be the case. Instead, there might be a constitutional crises involving significant changes, like the Snowflakes' desire to eliminate the Electoral College. Be careful what you wish for.

I'm not really sure where the constitutional crises comes from. When there was the question of whether Bush or Gore won the election, that was a crisis.

For impeachment, it is pretty straight forward. If the House passes articles of impeachment it goes to the Senate which either convicts or acquits. Pretty either or.

There isn't going to any constitutional amendments passed. There isn't going to be any changes to the Electoral College. I don't see any issues (for impeachment) that would end up in the Supreme Court.

Now if they try to remove Trump using the 25 amendment, I could see that going to the Supreme Court.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 23, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
When they subpoena Trump's Tax returns, he will resign
No way will he allow his tax returns be public domain

But they might just secure them without his approval, why not?
We all want to see them

No Impeachment Ruling will make it out of the House
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 24, 2017 - 11:19am PT
You know you're a nut
when your own wife slaps your hand away on international tv.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/foodanddrink/foodnews/melania-trump-slaps-at-donald-trumps-hand/vi-BBBpab2
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 24, 2017 - 11:32am PT

No Impeachment Ruling will make it out of the House

I don't think it is probable, but I wouldn't totally rule it out. At some point, Republicans might decide that impeaching Trump cuts their losses.

At some point, something far more damning (than what we have seen so far) might come out.

At some point, Trump might see the writing on the wall and resign for "undisclosed health reasons". Which might or might not be the case.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
Alaska West
May 24, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
I cannot believe John Gill is using the Snowflakes "designation" as an insult to liberals.

I would have thought that John Gill was above that.

Well, I guess I am wrong.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 24, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
The fact that a silly, but apt, term gets you riled up makes your implicit assumtion that you can hurl insults in a good cause all the more pathetic.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 24, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
Trump is looking for a way out. This job is too much work for him, and he grossly overestimated his ability to bullsh*t his way through it.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 24, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
Use of the "snowflake" term says a lot more about the person who uses it than the person it is intended for. I also admit it saddens me to see people otherwise respected show that they too are subject to being petty.

I don't think DT is looking for a way out. I think he has told his lies so many times that he believes that he is being persecuted. I also think that he believes he is much more clever than "the rest of us," and it's not his fault that people were so gullible they took h at his word when he made campaign promises. After all, he wrote specifically in his "Art of the Deal" book that you just say what you need to in order to get the deal done. It is not a matter of ethics for the man. A good Trump White House gift might be an embroidered pillow with the words "All's fair in Love, War and Business." I bet he would love it.
WBraun

climber
May 24, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
and it's not his fault that people were so gullible


Exactly!

This why I say "Americans are stoopid" all the time.

Americans believe every bullsh!t fed to them by their stoopid main stream media loons .....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 24, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
Well, Werner, I suppose one thing we'll never hear Donald Trump proclaim is "My word is my bond."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 24, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
You would if you googled around a little.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 24, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
I just googled :

"my word is my bond" trump quote

I got a couple of Melania Trump hits related to the speech she plagerized from Michelle Obama.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 24, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
Americans believe every bullsh!t fed to them by their stoopid main stream media loons .....

Don't be silly, Werner.

About 35% of Americans believe every bullshit fed to them by their stoopid right wing fringe element loons.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 24, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
LMAO....
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 24, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
At some point, something far more damning (than what we have seen so far) might come out


Oh my. Like having sex with an intern in the oval office?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
May 24, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Does treason (and malignant incompetence) really equate with a sordid blowjob?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
May 24, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
After all, he wrote specifically in his "Art of the Deal"

I don't believe Trump wrote a word of the book, or ever read one.

I think what you meant was some form of this statement got put into the book by the real writer Tony Shwarts.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 24, 2017 - 11:19pm PT
Thug life:

http://missoulian.com/opinion/editorial/missoulian-rescinds-gianforte-endorsement/article_ab947a9d-9220-5dc5-9193-f1ae9ef03c60.html

Greg Gianforte should not represent Montana in the U.S. House of Representatives.

The Republican candidate for Congress not only lost the endorsement of this newspaper Wednesday night when, according to witnesses, he put his hands around the throat of a reporter asking him about his health care stance, threw him to the ground and punched him — he should lose the confidence of all Montanans.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/24/greg-gianforte-fox-news-team-witnesses-gop-house-candidate-body-slam-reporter.html

[Click to View YouTube Video]
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 24, 2017 - 11:40pm PT
MH wrote: Does treason really equate with a sordid blowjob?

does stealing $10k equate with stealing $10m?

yes and no of course.



treason and getting sexual pleasure from interns are both [typically] abuses of power for personal gain.

so categorically, they are in some ways equivalent.

quantitatively equivalent, otoh? depends on what the treason entailed is.

so far said treason is all just a bunch of hypotheticals primarily originating from a bunch of pissed off left wingers who can't accept that they lost due to being both out of touch in message and with putting forth a candidate who was just out of touch period.



ie. it depends on what "is" is... :)

and that remains to be seen.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 25, 2017 - 07:53am PT
primarily originating from a bunch of pissed off left wingers

Laughably stupid, I guess Fox news has told you all you need to know

The FBI is the source of this, not pissed off liberals
The CIA, the NSA, several other Countries are all Red Flagging the Russia Connection

What are you going to say after the collusion is found?
That it's not as bad as the pissed liberals say it is?

If Trump knew about it, and said "let it continue" then it's collusion, a felony, and an Impeachable Offence

But we don't even need collusion, Trump has already committed a felony, "Obstruction of Justice" by firing Comey

Was firing Comey due to pissed off Liberals?
Sorry, Critical thinking has been supplanted with fake News

lost due to being both out of touch in message and with putting forth a candidate who was just out of touch period.
yes the right wing with the help of the Russian's smeared Hillary with the lies you believe, glad you can be a pawn for them.
Trump was so much more in touch, we all want the Wall and more tax cuts for the rich, we all love the "Leader"
I'm getting tired from all the winning
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 25, 2017 - 08:57am PT
Hey Kunlun...yeah, the pressure of a reporters question really got to him. It has been all over the news and we have a mail in ballot gig for this special election so he will likely win. The talk about his private business life appears to line up with his recent actions; not always violent but a loose cannon for sure. He is charged and will have to appear in court by June 7th. I'm fairly confident his actions will charge his base of 'tough' folks 'round here, you know, the fellers that love the term snowflake and have HippieHater stickers all over their CoalRollers!

I just heard on the news...

He really represents and upholds Montana values and will defeat ISIS
you.

Trad climber
fresh, isle
May 25, 2017 - 08:59am PT
jgill you're fvcking lucky that the guardrail
wasn't below the thimble because
your cowardly ass would never have
undertaken the ascent.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 25, 2017 - 09:41am PT
Why—and How—Is Trump's Base Still Loyal to a Guy Who Is a Proven Disaster?

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-and-how-trumps-base-still-loyal-guy-who-proven-disaster

After all the lies, contradictions, hypocrisy, flip-flops, gaffes, unforced errors, self-pity, insults, provocations, threats, bullying, betrayals, disappointments, scapegoating, exploitation, nepotism, and corruption, why is Donald Trump still beloved by 35 percent of the country?

The most popular theory in the mainstream media is that Trumpists think Trump will bring jobs back. The hypothesis here is that their support for Trump derives entirely from economic anxiety over globalization, loss of manufacturing, the supposed failures of Obamacare, wage stagnation, income inequality, trade deficits, and soaring national debt. But economic angst does not really explain Trumpists’ unwavering devotion to Trump, whose cabinet appointments, executive orders and legislative proposals generally do not help or even pretend to help them.

Nor is the economic angst theory borne out by the evidence. As policy analyst Sean McElwee and Prof. Jason McDaniel recently wrote in The Nation, an analysis of “the comprehensive American National Election Studies pre- and post-election survey of over 4,000 respondents ... [yielded] little evidence to suggest individual economic distress benefited Trump” in the 2016 election. And even though all the economic data indicate both that the unemployment rate is consistently below 5 percent and that immigrants help to improve the economy, Trumpists are determined to believe just the opposite.

Their resistance to the economic facts, then, must be motivated by some deeper, non-economic concern.

The left insists that this deeper concern is cultural: Trumpists love Trump because they share his racism, Islamophobia, anti-semitism, and misogyny. There is much to be said for this hypothesis. Neither Trump nor Trumpists seem to take equality very seriously, even though it is a cardinal principle of the Declaration of Independence and 14th Amendment. Even in 2017, they harbor toxic, hierarchical views of race, ethnicity, nationality, and religion and a pathological need to feel superior to other groups of people. Their worst nightmare was the country almost replacing the first black president with the first female president.

In her book Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right (New Press, 2016), Arlie Russell Hochschild paints a slightly more sympathetic picture of conservative Louisianans, and by extension, Trumpists generally. By Hochschild’s account, Trumpists feels as though the country “broke up” with them during the Obama era. They felt, and still feel, alienated by the left’s identity politics (“political correctness”), disparaged by the left’s opposition to traditional values (anti-gay rights, anti-abortion, anti-feminism, and religious faith), and weirdly threatened by the left’s view of government as an institution designed to solve problems that capitalism either creates or fails to solve.

All of this, plus the anger and hurt of feeling dumped, explains why Trumpists love Trump: he shares their bitterness and resentment. As long as he keeps giving all those self-righteous, contemptuous “elitists” the finger, a gesture that started with his birtherism, it doesn’t matter what else he says or does, how many lies he tells, how many mistakes he makes, or how many detrimental policies he advocates or enacts. All that matters is that he keep disrupting and subverting the arrogant, oppressive establishment—or “deconstruct[ing] the administrative state,” as Trump’s white nationalist advisor Steve Bannon put it.

Trumpists’ politics are ultimately rooted in raw emotion, not principles or thoughtful ideology. Much credit goes to such macho, anti-intellectual, grievance-stoking propagandists as Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and—until his recent termination by Fox News—Bill O’Reilly. Female commentators like Laura Ingraham, Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin have also won their hearts (not minds) by routinely bashing the whiny, controlling, effeminate, snowflake liberals.

It is not clear whether Democrats can win over these narrow-minded, cultish voters in 2018. They are just not amenable to rational debate about the merits of Obama-era regulations or the dangers of autocratic populism. So Frank Rich is right: Democrats should leave them alone. They should stop feigning empathy or trying to shape their policies around Trumpists’ bigoted worldview. It is a complete waste of candidates’ valuable time and resources.

One thing is certain: given recent events, Republicans don’t get to yell and scream about national security—or emails, private servers, or Benghazi—ever again. Nor do they get to yell and scream about pretty much anything else. Their ignorant, narcissistic, unprincipled, and unpatriotic standard-bearer has cost them whatever moral high ground they pretended to have for at least a generation.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
May 25, 2017 - 10:16am PT
oh Fry... so hostile so early in the morning...

and way to cut off the contextually important "so far said treason is all just a bunch of hypotheticals" from your quoting of me.

or are you going to enlighten my apparently fox listening ass [thats high-larious] as to how trump has been found guilty and i missed it?



anyway, your partisanship is boring so i'll just leave you with this and let you word vomit projections back in my direction in peace:

the rethuglicans just spent eight years bitching about obama, having hard ons for benghazi, for clinton emails and etc.

then when they actually got into power?

"oh you mean you thought we actually had a plan for healthcare?"



dems are on the same path.

keep feeding your trump/russia boner and focus exclusively on the fUcktards in power instead of progressing a new plan...

it's working great for the rethuglicans [and since understanding any kind of grey or subtle thought doesn't appear to be your strong suit: /s]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 25, 2017 - 10:36am PT
Complete BS
read the News

I'm just laying out the facts, I know they have a liberal bias

Give me your take on the Trump HealthCare Plan
The Trump Tax Plan
The Trump War on Women Plan
The Trump war on LBGTQ
The Trump war on drugs
The Trump plans are the same as the GOP plans

are they really same as the Dem's plans?

Your insistence of non-partisanism and both side do it is getting rather boring, since it's the biggest BS story ever

and your lame ass ad hominine attack is noted
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 25, 2017 - 10:37am PT

and way to cut off the contextually important "so far said treason is all just a bunch of hypotheticals" from your quoting of me.

or are you going to enlighten my apparently fox listening ass [thats high-larious] as to how trump has been found guilty and i missed it?



You realize, I hope, that there is a little bit of ground between being "just a bunch of hypotheticals" and being found guilty in a court of law.

OJ was not found guilty of murder in a criminal court. His killing of Nicole is more than a hypothetical...

It's not a hypothetical that Trump fired Comey. It's not a hypothetical that Trump was publicly critical of the FBI's Russian investigation. It hasn't been proven in a court a law that Trump pressured Comey to quash the investigation of Flynn and/or the Russian investigation but it has been widely reported by what still goes as mainstream media in this country. That is more than a hypothetical.

And beyond the possible obstruction of justice, the firing of Comey really shows how unfit Trump is for the job of being president. He appeared to have no idea of the amount of blowback he would get for doing that. At the very least, if he had a basic competence as a politician and manager of his staff, the Whitehouse should have had their story straight when Comey was fired.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 25, 2017 - 10:43am PT
Trump shoved the PM of Montenegro out of his way at the NATO meeting. Look at the tapes and watch his face as he makes the move and the way he behaves afterward.

He sure does look, hypothetically, of course, like Putin's little bastard trying to please daddy in that moment of time.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
May 25, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Disgraceful.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
May 25, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Disgraceful for sure but a lot of our foreign policy is essentially that and that is what more folks should be concerned about IMO. How many military bases doe we have on foreign soil?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2017 - 11:37am PT
It's hard to focus on anything except the ongoing Trump debacle... but:


Gerrymandering! This gets at the heart of some deep and fixable issues in our country:
http://election.princeton.edu/2012/12/30/gerrymanders-part-1-busting-the-both-sides-do-it-myth/

A systematic effort to redraw the borders between congressional districts can cause one party to have way more representation than the overall percentage of votes in their state would indicate. And if the party in control has the authority to redraw these lines, they do so in a way that increases the likelihood of their future victory. Here's a breakdown on the states where this is most abused, and by which party:

The takeaway message is that Gerrymandering is a systematic effort to make elections and our congressional representation NOT reflect the overall will of the people. By far, this deceit is practiced more by the Republican party:


We should have laws that use non-partisan automated techniques for drawing district boundaries. I have not researched the potential solutions, but the first thing that comes to mind is using GIS software to create equal population districts that minimize the sum of district perimeters (to avoid having little tentacles sticking out of districts). Maybe getting fancier would be to define a variety of demographic divisions that represent the diversity of people in the district, and for each demographic group, create the least-perimeter boundary with equal population allocation to each, then perform a merging/overlay type function on each of the separate demographic boundaries to create an averaged boundary. The intent would be to yield boundaries that maximize diversity and increase competition for seats, so congressional representatives feel more compelled to represent as many people in their district as possible.

Whatever algorithm is used, the ultimate goal should be to ensure that on a state-by-state level, the balance of congressional representatives accurately reflects the distribution of views in that state. In other words, the House of Representatives should accurately *represent* the views of the people.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 25, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
Whatever algorithm is used, the ultimate goal should be to ensure that on a state-by-state level, the balance of congressional representatives accurately reflects the distribution of views in that state. In other words, the House of Representatives should accurately *represent* the views of the people.

Q: Nut how do you measure the "views" of the people?

A: hold an election.

Q: how can you make districts?

A: hand the job over to some good geographers, and keep all politicians out of the process.

What we get in California????? A great big flipping mess.



monolith

climber
state of being
May 25, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
LoL, hold an election. Sort of like electing a president where the views of most of the voters are ignored.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
Guy, the simplest measure is this: do the percentage of party representatives for each state reflect what the party percentage of the popular vote is in that state?

If you were to vote on a variety of specific issues, would the distribution of votes of a state's representatives reflect the distribution of popular votes (i.e. sum of individual voters) in that state?

That is simple math- no philosophical or value judgments to be made.

Except the devil is in the details for how much the government funds the Census project, how much that outcome is altered by legal voters avoiding it because of fears of illegal immigrant relatives getting caught, or people being too busy with work to deal with it, etc... and in the end, how much we want the house of representatives to represent the full distribution of the population versus just the legal population versus just the voting population versus just the party that can rig the rules to preserve their power.

So these last questions are value judgments, and are the basis for manipulations and gray areas. But if we have a transparent philosophical conversation about which population the House of Representatives should represent, then the solution should be simple math. The messiness of getting an accurate census (if that is relevant based on the answer to whom the House should represent) can be outsourced as a distinct problem, but the present problem might be dependent on getting that right.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 25, 2017 - 12:33pm PT

A though time for Trump internationally after losing two hand-shakes to well prepared Macron

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 25, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
@TrueFactsStated just Tweeted that(according to source related to investigation) Flynn has begun proffering with FBI and USAG.


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 25, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
His Orangeness, also didn't do so well shaking the hand of President Emomali Rahmon of Tajikistan:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

World leaders seem to be cluing into Donny's tactics. Justin Trudeau was the first:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 25, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
Nut.... if you get the parties involved.... you get what we now have.

Monolith... yes an election. Donald WON fair n square, according to the rules in place.

chew on that

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 25, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
Guy
It just don't recall you having the same attitude about respecting Obama

He was the President, elected fair and square


Nut, I agree with the gerrymandering problem, it is really bad in the Red States
There should be a Federal standard of Non-Partisans dividing up the States evenly.

Of course the GOP will never allow that, States Rights and all
If it helps them they want states rights (slavery, abortion), if it hurts them they want Federal Laws
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 25, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Q: how can you make districts?

A: hand the job over to some good geographers, and keep all politicians out of the process.

What we get in California????? A great big flipping mess.


Guy, you should know this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Citizens_Redistricting_Commission
The California Citizens Redistricting Commission is the redistricting organization for the state of California. It is responsible for determining the boundaries for the Senate, Assembly, and Board of Equalization districts in the state. The 14-member commission consists of five Democrats, five Republicans, and four commissioners from neither major party. The commission was authorized following the passage of California Proposition 11, the Voters First Act, by voters in November 2008.[1] The commissioners were selected in November and December 2010 and were required to complete the new maps by August 15, 2011.[2]

Following the 2010 passage of California Proposition 20, the Voters First Act for Congress, the Commission was also assigned the responsibility of redrawing the state's U.S.congressional district boundaries in response to the congressional apportionment necessitated by the 2010 United States Census. The Commission has faced opposition from politicians because "many safe seats in the Legislature could suddenly become competitive."[

If anything is unfair it's that they have too many Republicans on the commission in relation to the number registered in the state.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 25, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
Sean Spicer — a Catholic — didn’t get to meet the pope. Even reporters feel sorry for him.

"Trump has done something I thought was impossible,” tweeted one reporter. “He has made everyone empathize with/defend Spicer."




Trump has sucked the lifeblood out of Sean Spicer

And now that his utility has diminished, get ready for the president to cast him aside.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 25, 2017 - 02:28pm PT
What we get in California????? A great big flipping mess.

What would be the nature of that mess?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 25, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
Guy, the simplest measure is this: do the percentage of party representatives for each state reflect what the party percentage of the popular vote is in that state?

You mean like if we had proportional representation. So say that we had proportional voting. What a concept! Divvy districts so that each, for instance, had ten seats up for election. If a given party got 20% of the vote in that district they would win two seats. There would be no way to systematically gerrymander the vote.

I'm sure nobody has ever done anything so radical before...
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 25, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
We should have laws that use non-partisan automated techniques for drawing district boundaries.

We aren't going to get laws that do this. The vested parties are too vested in making sure it stays the same.

For states that have voter initiatives, there is some possibility of change.

At the national level, if 5 Supreme Court justices decided to tackle gerrymandering, they could. Unlike many suggested changes to the political system, it wouldn't take a constitutional amendment.

Our system is explicitly built on checks and balances. It doesn't make constitutional sense (to me) that drawing voting districts should be left to the executive branch in most states.

The judiciary should be involved. As the [nominally] least political branch, it should check the power of the executive (and/or legislative) branch to draw voting districts that create such a built in advantage for the incumbent party.

The SC would get blowback for doing this (but that is true of any high profile issue they rule on) and, again, it requires no new laws or amendments. With the current court and current president, I don't see this happening any time soon. But I hold out more hope for this than I do for congress or state legislatures to do anything constructive.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Cali
May 25, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
In reality if there was no jerrymandering (ca version) then if the population was evenly distributed and voted to the left 59% of the time then every district would vote 59% for the left and the left would own every seat. But we aren't evenly distributed and I don't think that the 59% should win everything. I would love to see 59% of representatives representing the left in this case, not 49% and not 100%. How exactly you achieve this without changing our government is unknown to me.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
Alaska West
May 25, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
Reilly, I am not riled so much by John Gill's use of snowflake, it just seems sad, and so that such an intelligent man as John has fallen into the trap of using such terms. As for you Reilly, I am not so concerned. We know what you are. And at the end the day, you do not bother me nor what you think.

And you may think, will he answered me, so Vlad must be bothered. Not really, Reilly. I find this whole thing as a joke. And you are a big part of it.

Have a nice day dude.

EDIT

And fire away. I will not answer, I have wasted too much precious time on you, and you are not worth it. My mistake.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 25, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
Was Trump able to grope the Pope's ( pope grope ) wife...?
monolith

climber
state of being
May 25, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
D + 1.7
R + 13.2

As for California state assembly, it is very close to the overall voting percentages (+ 0). You just can't have more than a handful of competitive districts in CA due to the overwhelming dem vote.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 25, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
. . . it just seems sad, and so that such an intelligent man as John has fallen into the trap of using such terms


I used it as a term of affection, as you can easily tell by my capitalizing it: Snowflake, a lovely gift of nature. Be proud.


;>)
WBraun

climber
May 26, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Annnnddddd

You'll never find two snowflakes alike ever .......

Plus

Death rate from Alzheimer's disease in the US has risen by 55% in just 15 years.

Proves modern science is killing everyone .....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 26, 2017 - 08:35am PT
The GMO's in cornflakes are the key source of Azzholeziemers...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 26, 2017 - 09:09am PT
Guy
It just don't recall you having the same attitude about respecting Obama

He was the President, elected fair and square

CF

Heck... your incorrect on that one. I voted for President Obama the first time around. I had high hopes for him as our President. I thought he would give us a breath of fresh air from the Bush years. But that didn't happen, did it? He got owned by Pelosi and Reid and out came "the affordable care act".... and when he started running around apologizing for what America has done and showing great weakness, he lost me so I didn't vote for him the second time around. Thats my right as an American.

I get that you democrats hate Trump as do many republicans (true blue party member --- George Will for example)

But he won because he is a stick in the eye to almost every established politician who has been feeding at the trough for decades and getting absolutely zero done. The long festering problem of illegal aliens is just one example, I could go on and on. A majority of the voters wanted him over Clinton --- she was a continuation of Presidents Obama's
policies and voters rejected that and her style. (I know she won a majority of votes, but that's not how our system works... see DMT good post)

So heck, we do have many looming issues still to come, the party is just getting started.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 26, 2017 - 09:17am PT
Guyman...24 million americans may lose their health insurance thanks to Trump.. 45,000 americans die each year because they can't afford health insurance... Is this what Trump meant by America first...? The party is just getting started ..
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 26, 2017 - 10:29am PT
Locker.... The CBD numbers ... you know that their track record stinks on these sorts of evaluations.

And its not like millions of people will be cut off from health care, completely.

Lots (millions) of people have "Health Care" that they can't afford to use....I don't call that HC at all.

I say get the federal government out of meddling in health care and lets see what happens. The Gov will still fund HC for the poor, like it always has.

I know- crazy talk to you socialist types who think it is the Federal governments duty to provide stuff to us.


Norton

Social climber
May 26, 2017 - 10:54am PT
so, lets see here

some 14 million Americans now have healthcare through the expansion of Medicaid with the ACA

they have no monthly payment

how and why exactly does this piss you off?

guyman?

bet you have not read even a summary of the ACA, have you Honey Boo Boo?

hurt your little head when you try to think about stuff ?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 26, 2017 - 11:10am PT

In reality if there was no jerrymandering (ca version) then if the population was evenly distributed and voted to the left 59% of the time then every district would vote 59% for the left and the left would own every seat. But we aren't evenly distributed and I don't think that the 59% should win everything. I would love to see 59% of representatives representing the left in this case, not 49% and not 100%. How exactly you achieve this without changing our government is unknown to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by changing our government. But with districts that have one, winner-take-all, seat, I don't think you can.

Not much can be done with the Senate. But the House could have larger districts where each district had ten seats up for grabs. The party that gets ~40% of the vote gets 4 out of the 10 seats. As opposed to ten individual districts where getting 40% of the vote gets you zero seats.

You don't have to have a parliament to have proportional voting. You could still elect the president directly. The big change is you would have 10 House of representatives for a given district and districts would obviously get bigger. But they would still represent a specific place. (As opposed to having all 435 seats up for grabs in one national district which would have no local representation at all.)

Doing this would require a constitutional amendment, which isn't happening, so I realize it is no more than internet BSing.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2017 - 11:13am PT
DMT, you're probably right. Both parties probably want to manipulate boundaries as much as they can to favor their interests, and the Republicans have simply been more successful at it, or the technologies to do it more effectively evolved at a time when Republicans happened to be in more power.

And Guy, to your point, saying Republican or Democrat is not constructive to solving the problem.

Proportional representation... lessons from the front lines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_electoral_law_of_2015

from the article:
The territory of Italy is divided into 100 constituencies electing between 3 and 9 deputies depending on their size. For each constituency, the parties designate a list of candidates: "head of list" candidates can run in up to 10 constituencies, while other candidates are limited to a single constituency. Gender balance is promoted by requiring that, in each region, head of lists of either sex for the same party should not exceed 60% of the total; additionally, candidates in all lists must be in a sequence alternating by gender.

At the first round, electors receive a ballot allowing them to vote for a single party and for its head of list candidate (pre-printed on the ballot), and are given the option to express up to two additional preference votes for other candidates of that party, by writing their name next to the party symbol. If two preference votes are expressed, they must be of a different sex: otherwise, the second preference is discarded.

Only parties passing a 3% minimum threshold in the first round are assigned seats. If the party receiving the plurality of the votes passes a 40% threshold, it is attributed a minimum of 340 seats (54%). The remaining seats are allocated to the other parties in a proportional fashion, and no second round takes place.

If no party has been able to pass the 40% threshold, a second round takes place two weeks after the first one: this time electors receive a ballot where they are allowed to choose between the two parties that received most votes in the first round. The party winning the second round is attributed 340 seats, and the remaining 277 seats are allocated to the other parties in a proportional fashion, according to the results of the first round.

The proportional allocation of seats follows the largest remainder method. Each party receives a certain number of seats depending on its national result: these seats are then projected onto the 100 constituencies and attributed to the candidates of that constituency, starting from the head of list and then according to the number of preference votes.

This method evolved to give proportional representation while still ensuring a majority party control so that the government won't get stuck in deadlocked opposition and get nothing done.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 26, 2017 - 11:22am PT
That's a pile of bs. Democrats equally guilty of gerrymandering. It sure is funny that only the side out of power clamors for rule changes, from electoral college to congressional districts. Never do they complain when their girls hold the power. Then its all hunkydorry.

Absolutely. If the Democrats didn't do also do that I would be pissed.

If the refs are going to reward a player (in say soccer or the NBA) for an obvious flop, then flopping is part of the game and you play to win based on the rules as called by the refs. On the rare occasions that I watch soccer, I find the flopping very annoying and pathetic (there is a reason I don't watch much soccer). But I don't blame the players for executing a winning strategy. I blame the rules and the refs.

Politics has [almost] always been a bare-knuckle affair that is played to win based on whatever rules (and interpretations) exist.

So I certainly don't expect Dems to refrain from gerrymandering just because gerrymandering screws up our politics and leads to results that are not in the public interest.

But I absolutely would like to see changes at the national level to reduce gerrymandering. I would like to see the Supreme Court actively fight gerrymandering. Or rather, the Supreme Court sets the precedent in a handful of cases and the lower courts do most of the fighting.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 26, 2017 - 11:48am PT
Oklahoma went all red a while back. The Republicans promptly cut taxes on all sorts of stuff. The problem is that we have a balanced budget amendment.

The state went broke in the middle of an oil boom. Now they are cutting the snot out of all sorts of state functions. They are way beyond cutting fat. They are deep into muscle now.

They thought lowering taxes would bring in jobs, like they always do when they cut taxes. The only jobs that high tech firms sent here were some minimum wage call centers. Employment didn't come. We regularly graduate top notch teachers from our universities, which aren't bad, but they drive to Texas and make an extra 15 grand a year. It has been a big problem for a long time.

It would be laughable if it weren't so bad. They are frantically putting the taxes back, but it is too late for this year. So they are cutting teachers and other things that could make life better here. The only reason that I live in this stupid state is because of family.

We did recently have a very centrist democratic Governor. He balanced the budget every year. In good years we put the excess into the Rainy Day Fund. That was pilfered immediately by the Republicans.

Republicans like to spend money as much as Democrats do. The difference is that they don't pay for it.
dirtbag

climber
May 26, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
Locker.... The CBD numbers ... you know that their track record stinks on these sorts of evaluations.

And its not like millions of people will be cut off from health care, completely.

Lots (millions) of people have "Health Care" that they can't afford to use....I don't call that HC at all.

I say get the federal government out of meddling in health care and lets see what happens. The Gov will still fund HC for the poor, like it always has.

I know- crazy talk to you socialist types who think it is the Federal governments duty to provide stuff to us.



Ok, so let's say the cbo is off by half, and "only" 12 million will be uninsured.

Feel better?

Face it, you've been had. He's not sticking it to the establishment: he is the establishment. His tax cuts resulting from slashing health care for millions of poor people will benefit him and his family, who are already enriching themselves through a myriad of conflicts and abuses of their offices (emoluments clause, anyone?). The only difference between him and traditional establishments types is that they are a bit more competent and less prone to stupidity. They also know how to keep their traps shut and not blab sensitive intelligence to the Russians.

We told you so.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 26, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
Yes they can die....all 24 million... get real.

What did we have before?

Even when I was self-employed, I was able to buy a Blue Cross plan for my family for a pretty reasonable amount. IIRC it was less than $500/mo

and it took care of some broken bones and a bunch of kid visits.

people who I know who have coverage can't use it without spending like $14,000 first.

by by going climbing

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 26, 2017 - 12:31pm PT
Yeah... Get government out of medicine and kiss all publicy funded medical research goodbye...Like Donald said , health care is a complex issue...
dirtbag

climber
May 26, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
Yes they can die....all 24 million... get real.

What did we have before?


Thousands of deaths annually from lack of coverage; skyrocketig costs for everyone: catastrophic healthcare bills. You know, the good old days. Did you bother to pay attention then?

But trump thanks you for his tax cuts.



10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
May 26, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
I get that you democrats hate Trump as do many republicans (true blue party member --- George Will for example)

But he won because he is a stick in the eye to almost every established politician who has been feeding at the trough for decades

like Orrin Hatch, Mitch McConnell?
Norton

Social climber
May 26, 2017 - 12:47pm PT

Idiot Wind

It's a wonder you still know how to breathe

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 26, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
Idiot Wind

It's a wonder you still know how to breathe

That the best you can do NORTON?

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
May 26, 2017 - 02:32pm PT

Even when I was self-employed, I was able to buy a Blue Cross plan for my family for a pretty reasonable amount. IIRC it was less than $500/mo

Oh yea? When I first got my own health insurance (as an individual) back when I was 25 or so, it cost me around 50 bucks a month or so. By the time I turned 40, I was paying $500 month and this was before Obamacare.

There is this thing called inflation. And this not so little thing that health care costs have been going up faster than inflation for a long, long, really, long, pre-Obamacare, long, long time.

And there is also this trivia little issue that older people have more health issues and health insurance, even pre-Obamacare, reflected that.

Getting rid of Obamacare isn't going to bring the $500/mo plan back now that you are 8 years or so older.

monolith

climber
state of being
May 26, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
The CBO projects the AHCA to be nearly the same premiums as the ACA. Only diff is much fewer mandated benefits and dropping millions of insured.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 27, 2017 - 11:19am PT
Trump is also confused by the ACA saying he never knew health care was so complicated...This after his non-stop campaign promise to repeal Obamacare... we have a an unqualified realtor posing as president meddling in something he has little understanding of... What could go wrong...? Maybe Trump's fragile ego requires his name being on the " Great " proposed republican plan the one that will likely create more bankruptcies and death for the American people..?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 27, 2017 - 11:36am PT
will somebody plea$e think of the bottom line here?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
The bottom line is what most Americans will be pushed under, in an effort to extract every possible resource for those with the most power, until there is a collective will to fight back or until we are exterminated when machines can provide for the luxuries of the privileged class.
Norton

Social climber
May 27, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
We will just have to storm the castle
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 27, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
Breaking News
Kushner was setting up a communications channel using equipment at the Russian embassy to thwart U.S. surveillance systems of the pre-inauguration conversations. Trump’s initial national security adviser, retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, was reportedly also involved

Pence, Eric Prince, Manafort, Flynn, Page, Sessions, Tillerson, Murdock, Bannon, Rohrabacher, Ryan, McConnell and a hundred more all have ties to Russia
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 27, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
WaPost

With state budget in crisis, many Oklahoma schools hold classes just four days a week

Funding for classrooms has been shrinking for years in this deep-red state as lawmakers have cut taxes, slicing away hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue. Class sizes have ballooned, art and foreign-language programs have shrunk or disappeared, and teacher salaries remain low.

Another significant consequence: A shorter school week.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
Maybe the solution for Oklahoma is to slash the burdensome regulations about child labor and minimum wage, reduce irresponsible government spending and leverage private voucher schools so they efficiently cover stuff in only 2 days per week, and then you can have the kids doing 4x10 work shifts in exchange for a daily food ration, and then they still have a free day to keep sacred the holy Sabbath.
drF

Trad climber
usa
May 28, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Pence, Eric Prince, Manafort, Flynn, Page, Sessions, Tillerson, Murdock, Bannon, Rohrabacher, Ryan, McConnell and a hundred more all have ties to Russia

You forgot Obama and the Clinton's
Norton

Social climber
May 28, 2017 - 09:21am PT
ok I'll bite out of curiosity

what were President Obama's ties to Russia, must be something just terrible, guessing?

expand on the harm these ties did to our national security, are they impeachable offenses?
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 28, 2017 - 09:31am PT
The Microwave is Beeping
By Kellyanne and The Police

Well the microwave is beeping
Is Obama spying on me?
The microwave is beeping
Is that Obama spying on me?
The microwave is beeping
Won't he ever leave me be?
Well the microwave is beeping
Is that Obama spying on me?

Well every Russian I go out with
Becomes my blackmailing friend
Every Russian I go out with
Becomes my blackmailing friend
Well I hear the microwave beeping
Taking pictures of me again
Well every Russian I go out with
Becomes my blackmailing friend

Oh Obama
Oh Obama please listen
And don't devour me
Oh Obama
Oh Obama please listen
Oh deep state please have mercy
Let this poor girl be
Oh Obama
Oh Obama please listen
Oh Obama

Well the microwave is beeping
Is Obama spying on me?
The microwave is beeping
Is that Obama spying on me?
The microwave is beeping
Won't he ever leave me be?
Well the microwave is beeping
Is that Obama spying on me?

Ohhhh....Obama
WBraun

climber
May 28, 2017 - 09:47am PT
Trump's best friend

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 28, 2017 - 10:35am PT
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 28, 2017 - 11:27am PT
BRINGER' BACK THAT SERVICE. . .BRINGER' BACK DA DRAFT.


Barry oblamees ? -mhe-, he won't save ya' he's the one who's to blame,
It is all his fault.
r' mberthat as this republic
goes up in Soviet served flames.

If he'd a not hidden in the Bushes, and then gone and gotten a Brazilian,
from a Venevwailing strongman,
maybe
chevron exon Could'a' been taken down ? ( given a BP Horizon sunrise ocean Ennema )
Clown and Cheney, Rumey to but after all they made there bank back On the backs
of boys born in the 50s and children from the 60s, 70s & those
still fooled into service until forever. .
that's when we missed out on gettin' Kissassenger and McNotmaproblem too
With agent Orenge Red'nblack. Thems good ole' days when every Bob got a number,
and was called to serve, whatschmuck do ya' call it

Bringer' Back the Draft!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 28, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
I read the comments about Oklahoma, and I (sigh) must agree.

The legislature has pilfered every state agency stealing statutory fees on which they survive. It goes even deeper than that.

The real problem is in Kansas. Brownback pretty much destroyed that state. There is even a book about it, What's The Matter With Kansas?

Point is that even Ann Coulter said that cutting taxes for the rich is poorly thought out. Taxes should perhaps be cut for every new job they create, rather than letting them take their money and put it in an offshore bank to avoid paying taxes at all.

Secretaries pay the same percentage as multi-billionaires, because of all of the tax breaks.

As for healthcare, nobody brings up healthcare costs themselves. One doc that I saw lives in a freaking mansion. There was a huge article about it in the local society magazine.

I had to go to the ER about 6 months ago. They gave me a bag of IV fluids and sent me home. Price? Almost 2 grand. My insurance company only had to pay a few hundred, but anyone without insurance would have had to pay it all.

We pay TWICE as much for healthcare as European countries do, and the metrics of overall health in this country aren't even in the top 20 in many areas.

They need to GUT healthcare COSTS. Not how to pay for them.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 28, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
Base...Good point on gutting costs or how about companies trickle down on their workers and pay them so they can afford the ridiculous costs of health insurance...?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 28, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
At least 120 school districts have gone to four-day status. Here in Pueblo West, Colorado, it seems to work well; however, this is a fairly stable middle class community and the students are by and large motivated.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 28, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
RJ! A great photo of the G7 conference participants: British Prime Minister Theresa May, French President Emmanuel Macron, Italian Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni, Angela Merkel of Germany, Justin Trudeau of Canada, The European Union representative, and leading the group, U.S. President Donald Trump.

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 28, 2017 - 07:39pm PT

I hear that Frenchie Macron almost broke Trump's hand with his handshake. . .
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
OK, back to some real issues at the root of things... distribution of wealth between rich and poor. This drives the dissatisfaction that enabled Trump to be elected. Check it out!

That diagram may exaggerate the issue, but not by much! In the mid-1960s, the USA CEO pay rate was much more similar to other countries today, around 20:1. Today you can find other sources that say it's only ~300x or something similar. The point remains, it is waaay out of line.

Some folks in America recognize this as a problem. One of the steps to address this, to cast light on the ugliness, was part of the Dodd-Frank act. It requires public companies to publish the ration of CEO to average worker pay. More info about the history and the issue:
http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/ceo-pay
http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/ceo-pay/employee-reaction

It is notable that people moving up the pay ladder don't seem to mind, hoping they will get the benefit of it. And folks lower on the ladder tend to be ignorant of it and not see the consequences of it in their own lives.

Who is trying to repeal the Dodd-Frank act?
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/39830-trump-floats-complete-repeal-of-dodd-frank
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/05/dodd-frank-repeal/525474/

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 29, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 29, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Craig... Priceless ...Thanks for the humor...
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 30, 2017 - 07:09am PT

Craig--the crowd shouts for MORE, MORE!!!
Norton

Social climber
May 30, 2017 - 08:37am PT
Sources: Russians discussed potentially 'derogatory' information about Trump and associates during campaign

golden showers?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/30/politics/russians-trump-campaign-information/index.html
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 30, 2017 - 08:53am PT

An American CEO bully was seen in Europe lately, drunk on himself...

Norton

Social climber
May 30, 2017 - 10:43am PT
Presidency is not a natural fit

*So Trump returns to the White House this week just as he left -- lonely, angry and not happy with much of anyone. The presidency, Donald Trump is discovering, is not an easy or natural fit.

"He now lives within himself, which is a dangerous place for Donald Trump to be," says someone who speaks with the President. "I see him emotionally withdrawing. He's gained weight. He doesn't have anybody whom he trusts."
The question, he adds, is whether Trump will understand the enormity of what he faces or will instead "be back to being arrogant and stubborn." He will have to realize that "all this trip really did was hit the pause button."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/30/opinions/trump-home-all-alone-borger/index.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 30, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
May 31, 2017 - 07:08am PT
A policy issue?
How about US to pull out of Paris climate treaty?

Trump is a f*#king moron.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 31, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
George Will, the cerebral conservative commentator said this:

The American people decided to treat the Presidency as an entry level political job, and this is what they get.

And that came from an arch conservative.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 08:29am PT
Hey, at least he's draining the swamp.

The rate at which the Trump White House has handed out waivers is far faster than that of the Obama administration, which issued 17 exemptions for White House appointees over eight years.

The waiver information — which was requested of all federal agencies by the Office of Government Ethics in April — provides a window into how far the Trump administration is willing to bend on its “drain the swamp” pledge. As a candidate, Trump vowed to take a hard line on lobbyists, which he promised would not shape his administration.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/31/white-house-grants-ethics-waivers-to-17-appointees-including-four-former-lobbyists/?utm_term=.2aea183c75ad
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 1, 2017 - 08:54am PT
So, should the Fed start divesting its bond holdings now? Sub-point: dare they do so AND raise interest rates? Remember, it's the economy, stoopid.

Y'all do want to talk about issues, right?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:13am PT
Governmental ethics is an isssue.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:13am PT
And that came from an arch conservative

Was an arch conservative, but in today's fringe-right gop he's a conservative democrat.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:28am PT
I'm genuinely glad you guys are content in your echo-chamber correctness, having created a safe space in which to vent. It'll hopefully keep you from going postal or blowing a gasket as things increasingly don't go your way.

So, if you remain content enough to just vent into this safe space, I for one will happily leave you to it. Carry on.

ECHO

Echo

echo

ech
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:35am PT
Whatever, dude.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:38am PT
Airlines body says laptop ban impacting Middle East-U.S. traffic
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airlines-iata-idUSKBN18S5TV

Is airline safety an issue?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 1, 2017 - 09:42am PT
Was an arch conservative, but in today's fringe-right gop he's a conservative democrat.

I don't think so.

He is just another "never Trump" GOP dude who marginalized himself... and now,like most of the posters on this topic, can't begin to fathom that Mr. Trump won the election and the WHITE HOUSE is not calling George and asking for his opinion on various subjects.

Its hard for folks to slap a label on our President today... but keep trying--its been most entertaining.

MB1 and R .... +1
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
Alaska West
Jun 1, 2017 - 10:06am PT
If it was not so sad, I would find it amusing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 1, 2017 - 11:00am PT
Today's WaPost:

Conservatism is soiled by scowling primitives

By George F. Will


Gosh, I guess he recognizes you, Prof Gill.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 1, 2017 - 11:01am PT
Its hard for folks to slap a label on our President today... but keep trying--its been most entertaining.

Infant.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 1, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
" Nightmare " is how John Dean , watergate lawyer , described what's going on for the Trump administrations' cover-up on Russian election influence...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 1, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
Its hard for folks to slap a label on our President today... but keep trying--its been most entertaining.

no it's not.
for one, sonofabitch

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 1, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
Lemme get this straight: the economy isn't an issue and airline safety isn't an issue but whining about ethics is? Oh, right, that ties into Sloan and the Nose.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Nobody said those weren't issues.

And yes, when we have in place what might be the most openly keptorcratic presidency in our history, that's a huge issue, except for trunpkins, who only get worked up about Hilary's emails.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 1, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
Well, you seem to have gotten it about as straight as Freddie Mercury(RIP)!1
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 1, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
Lemme get this straight: the economy isn't an issue and airline safety isn't an issue but whining about ethics is? Oh, right, that ties into Sloan and the Nose.

So I guess for the GOP bunch, issues of ethics and corruption are not issues.

I remember when they screamed about accountability, efficiency, and losses through theft. But that was when they pretended to care about morality.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 1, 2017 - 05:37pm PT
I kant figure you guys.... Hillery and Bill are the biggest crooks ever......... and you call our President a Crook.

Prove that he is.

Show how he is a Racist.

Prove ONE thing.

I dare you.

The Democrats and the MEDIA just make sh#t up and keep repeating it over and over......

oh yea, I listened to Maxine Watters this am... what a Ficken Moron.

Impeach... !!!

How is that Russian thing going?

And one thing for Ken M .... you insult John Gill---- your not worthy to even carry his jock strap... so please try to have some manners around one of the true greats of our sport. punter.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 1, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Guy.. Gill wears a jock strap...? TMI...!!
Norton

Social climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
Show how he is a Racist.

the Federal government sued him TWICE for refusing to rent housing to blacks

I could go on and on but I gotta teach a guitar lesson now

by the way, name the "criminal" charge Hillary Clinton was charged with

name the civil charge she was charged with

now compare that to the Mount Everest of the lying, suing, cheating piece of sh#t you voted for

back later to keep proving you not only wrong but educationally ignorant
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 06:00pm PT
We've provided links over and over again, guyman.

You don't care. You blow them off.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 1, 2017 - 06:19pm PT

Prove ONE thing.

Actually the burden of proof is on you. Prove that he isn't



And one thing for Ken M .... you insult John Gill---- your not worthy to even carry his jock strap... so please try to have some manners around one of the true greats of our sport. punter.

Kind of bitter. We must have made you stop, and think.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 1, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
Lies, lies, and more lies about the Paris agreement, yet his base eats it up.

Hear you go Guyman, yet more examples of his failed leadership.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/01/fact-checking-president-trumps-claims-on-the-paris-climate-change-deal/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_fc-trumpspeech-810pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 1, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
The latest polls show Trump's voter approval in the 35% to 41% zone, but still most of his original supporters like what he's doing to America & the world.

Those that voted for Trump, like that he's now joined the two other nations (Syria & Nicaragua) that did not sign the Paris Global warming accords, they like that he has rolled back environmental protection in the U.S., they love that he has almost destroyed Obamacare, with a new program that will deny healthcare to millions & raise insurance costs for older Americans by huge amounts.

Trump supporters like that he's bitch-slapped every liberal American & smart-assed foreigner that looked down on him & his base of right-wing American working-class folks. And they really like that Trump is putting it to the Mexicans & the Muslims, & they can't wait for him to put it to the Africans & the Asians.

Unfortunately, most Trump supporters ignore that much of what he has done & is doing, makes him & his family & a few more of the most affluent in this country, much, much richer, while raising national debt & making many more people suffer higher prices, lower incomes, & deteriorating environmental conditions.

Sigh.

I'm very sorry for what America has & might yet become, under Trump & Fox news.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 1, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
And one thing for Ken M .... you insult John Gill---- your not worthy to even carry his jock strap... so please try to have some manners around one of the true greats of our sport. punter.


I didn't insult John Gill. George Will, the Uber-conservative did.

Gill's accomplishments on rock are undeniable (although you have to wonder, when he worships a man who congenitally lies about EVERYTHING, the association starts to make one think about what Gill has claimed?)

All of that seems moot, however, when Gill celebrates and rejoices in a man whose moral virtues are that of a feral pig. If this is what he thinks is right, then let him be on the receiving end of what he celebrates.

However, no matter how great his accomplishments on rock, it doesn't mean that he knows anything about anything off of rock.

I'm reminded of William Shockley, the Nobel Laureate who invented the transistor, who destroyed himself when he started opining about race and intelligence.

Brilliance in one arena does not confer mastery over all.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2017 - 11:43pm PT
Guy, do you think a mysogynist pig would be able to effectively lead our country if he were competent in other respects? I don't think so, because a leader can't alienate half of the population and disempower half of the kids growing up.

Do you think a president can effectively execute when he creates a toxic workplace culture, fosters a lack of respect and trust for professionals doing their job, and his widely reviled personality stop him from attracing the most qualified candidates for many jobs? As a CEO in a publicly traded company with a board elected by shareholders, he would be fired. The standard for achievement should be higher for the office of President of the United States of America.

Guy, do you think that in the coming decades, the USA will be well served by an isolationist policy coupled with anti-investment in science and education? Do you think we will generate more jobs, increase our global competitiveness, export more stuff? Or do you think we will become the new 3rd world creating less value, generating a smaller tax base to support an ever shrinking government while having less consumer spending and less corporate income leading to less corporate investment and fewer jobs, in an ever tightening downward spiral?

Do you think companies will choose to make jobs in USA when there are many countries with a better trained workforce and lower wages? Do you think there is loyalty and patriotism among corporations?

Or do you have a vision of lots of factories producing "stuff" based on resources extracted from our continent and somehow reliving the 1950s when the USA was fresh off of kicking global ass, nuking enemies, and clandestinely toppling democracies to ensure global American corporate hegemony?

I'm trying to formulate a vision of your values and it's not computing for me. Being angry at a person who lost the election, as a means of distracting from the person who is in office and making policy decisions right now that will hurt us all.... how does that event work? I get that the emotional frustration or anger or fear or something must be quite strong to overrule reason... but what was the feared or hated scenario that was so bad that Trump and what he is doing now seems like a better alternative?



nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 2, 2017 - 12:24am PT
i ain't guy, but i'll take a crack at a bunch of these...

do you think a mysogynist pig would be able to effectively lead our country if he were competent in other respects?

ummm... you are familiar with u.s. [and global, for that matter] history, no? just because we didn't have access hollywood in the 1800s, doesn't mean there isn't evidence that "mysogynist pig" and "president" are not infrequent bedfellows... and just because someone isn't as verbally crass as drumpf doesn't mean that they are any less despicable, regardless of how much the left loves them [hint, hint...]

Do you think a president can effectively execute when he creates a toxic workplace culture, fosters a lack of respect and trust for professionals doing their job, and his widely reviled personality stop him from attracing the most qualified candidates for many jobs?

toxic workplaces are a dime a dozen. and the presidency, i suspect, is, in historical terms, no different. what i will say is seemingly unique to drumpf, relative to other more recent presidents, is a disinterest in getting the most qualified for the job. he seems to approach the presidency in a way more akin to organized crime's interest in "loyalty" rather than "competence". but playing devil's advocate, there is a reason that organized crime survives in the day and age of our modernistic bureaucratic governmental organizations.

do you think that in the coming decades, the USA will be well served by an isolationist policy coupled with anti-investment in science and education? Do you think we will generate more jobs, increase our global competitiveness, export more stuff?

i'm going to ignore the rest of this paragraph's loaded questions and focus on this one. 'cause this is where you [and the dem party] really go off the rails, imo. do you really not still get it? have you not looked at charts that track productivity gains and worker salary levels over the last sixty years? or c.e.o. vs employee average salaries over the last sixty years. 'cause that's the problem with all of your [/dem] loaded questions: the alternative that has been offered and persued over the last seventyish years [globalized capitalism in concert with militant coercion] has resulted, for at least the last thirtyish years, in decreasing or plateauing gains for everybody except the upper crust, despite continued, across the board, increases in productivity. did trump offer any actual solutions? of course not. [sorry actual trump fanboys: no walls were ever going to be realistically built and china was never going to be slapped with 30% terrrifs] but he did do one thing that h. clinton and the gang didn't: he tapped in emotionally to some of the underlying problems.

ie. sure pure isolationism as trump generally seems to be selling is short sighted and reactionary. otoh, the status quo as was offered by h. clinton and is continuing to be offered by the dem party is tone deaf and quote possibly at this point brain dead.

Do you think companies will choose to make jobs in USA when there are many countries with a better trained workforce and lower wages?

as long as there are no terrifs in place to protect against slave like conditions in other countries... of course not. your point?

Or do you have a vision of lots of factories producing "stuff" based on resources extracted from our continent and somehow reliving the 1950s when the USA was fresh off of kicking global ass, nuking enemies, and clandestinely toppling democracies to ensure global American corporate hegemony?

of course that is naive. otoh, what isn't naive is to question/be frustrated with a domestic/globalized order/distribution system that ensnares other countries with conceptual, but militaristically backed "debt", that internally distributes with mind boggling "unfairness", that enforces conceptual/operational systems the world over with overt and covert threats of/actual violence, and that in general is a model of transparent lying/manipulation/bribery at the federal elected level, for anyone with open eyes...

but what was the feared or hated scenario that was so bad that Trump and what he is doing now seems like a better alternative?

while i can't speak directly for them, my best guess is that for many of the people that elected trump, the answer would be variations of: the status quo.



anyway, sorry for some of the tone nut... i know you mean well.

but man your occasional, what i suspect is unintended, condescension gets me momentarily riled...

peace.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:50am PT
I could go on and on but I'm really just full of BS

Fixed it for you nortl00n. The daily hysteria continues for you fools.

L0ckur always throwing the word 'fact' at the end of his 6th grade style rants. What a joke.

The esteemed "Dr" Ken with his usual BS-based lack of reasoning.

You old, melted snowflakes will continue to swirl the drain for the next 7.5 years.

Pure stupidity of your own expense.....free entertainment for the rest of us L0L
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 2, 2017 - 07:57am PT
Hillery and Bill are the biggest crooks ever..

That's an opinion, not a fact.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 08:06am PT
drF... Free entertainment is Pucker Lips on a tight leash , eagerly awaiting Putin's next golden shower...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 08:21am PT
nah000 I appreciate your response and will chew on it a while. Yesterday was definitely a challenging one for me and probably reflected more whining than the reflection I normally strive for.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 2, 2017 - 09:44am PT
All of that seems moot, however, when Gill celebrates and rejoices in a man whose moral virtues are that of a feral pig. If this is what he thinks is right, then let him be on the receiving end of what he celebrates


I don't know where you came up with that. I cringe when I think of Trump. And I cringe when I think of HRC. Two of the worst candidates ever. When I poked at you about my "comrades" in the KKK and Aryan Nation you took me seriously. You need to calm down and cultivate a sense of humor, maybe take your yacht out for a spin. Are you on medication?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 09:53am PT
jgill.... I think Ken M was trolling you...?
Norton

Social climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 09:53am PT
ok, so let's talk about Hillary Clinton

a couple of thoughts

historically speaking, she was the most" qualified" Presidential candidate in US history
having served as US Senator from New York and also as US Secretary of State

so what are those horrible negatives?

she set up a private email server with professional filtering and security help
when she was at her home she used that server for Sec of State business emails
out of tens of thousands, four emails had a little "c" imbedded indicating classified
so benign were they that 3 of the 4 have now been declassified

big deal, no one harmed, she took responsibility and stated she should have used the government email server

now, compare those most previous sins to the mount everest of lying, law suit settlements,
moral and ethical business dealings of Donald Trump's

and tell us how you conclude she was the "lesser of two evils"?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 10:00am PT
Another 6th grade comment...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 10:06am PT
Norton is just another angry libtard...Goon Boi....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 2, 2017 - 10:29am PT
I don't know where you came up with that. I cringe when I think of Trump. And I cringe when I think of HRC. Two of the worst candidates ever. When I poked at you about my "comrades" in the KKK and Aryan Nation you took me seriously. You need to calm down and cultivate a sense of humor, maybe take your yacht out for a spin. Are you on medication?


They ARE your comrades in this adventure. You chose Trump, now you own him. You've treated it as no big deal, and for you, it probably isn't.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Jun 2, 2017 - 11:52am PT

Her negative is mainly her personality. She isn't a good candidate, sorry. She cannot relate well to her base.

I don't think that's true. Her 'base' related to her quite well actually. The Intellegent, educated, and smart people all voted for her. The problem is there's not enough just smart people to get her elected. She also needed all the people who got disenfranchised by gerrymandering, voter suppression, and all the one's who were just too lazy to vote. It's a sad fact that the gop is better at getting out the vote. That, all the lies about Benghazi and James Comey sealed Trump's victory.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 11:59am PT
We also have a very quirky electoral system based on winning states. 3 million more people voted for her, yet she still lost.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
Rincon, 100 per cent with you. 👍
dirtbag

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
She admitted it, too, saying that schmoozing is hard for her.

Oh well, on to 2020.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
I think I, like most liberal folks, are disconnected from the experience of true poverty and hopelessness in this country. Because of our failure to really understand or build credibility with this segment of society, the picture of the future possibility we paint appears to lack authenticity or relevance for struggling people. They have a historical experience of being left behind, and they interpret our viewpoints through the lens that it will be more of the same.

So the vote goes not to a carefully thought out path to systematically solve the root problems that people experience, but rather just a wild Hail Mary for something radically different because status quo ain't working.

I have been more policy-centric than party-centric in my viewpoints, but I'm obviously more on the Democratic party side of the spectrum. But I'm disillusioned by how the Democrats have responded to the Trump election. They make it mostly about a witch hunt for Trump and taking back seats riding on the indignant outrage, but they are not educating people about the link between various policy choices and the consequences at local and personal levels. They don't talk about the time delays over which the consequences occur. This leaves most people vulnerable to b.s. lies about how a candidate will save them and immediately make their lives better, without addressing what is really wrong and what are the things that can be done to fix it, and how long it will take and what the side effects are.

I am a die-hard optimist that people make better choices when they understand what it means in their lives. People who are truly poor and desperate don't give a sh#t about taking our society closer to an ideal. They just want to make their lives stop sucking. Anybody who pedals a solution to that is worth a shot given that doing nothing or staying the course is just not working for them.

I get that. I wish we had a leader who had credibility and experience of being really poor, not seeing any better prospects in the future, but somehow rose up out of that and was able to relate the personal circumstances of those folks to the societal ideals that some of us are chasing.

I see how the visions of new economies and societal revolutions are implicitly biased toward people who have intellectual or other merits that launch them into the elite opportunities, while average Joe outlook is getting bleaker. I frankly don't see that ever changing... unless we commit to full-blown revolution and technology ban and back to agrarian society with everyone working as a subsistence farmer where the differential value of skills approaches zero and we are all just commodity bodies doing unskilled labor.

But you know what? The rest of the world won't keep their head up their ass like us. They will use that technology we eschew and those skills that separate people, they will use those skills to enslave us. We will become work plantations where all of the value we generate is taken for the enrichment of whatever country enslaves us.

So giving up technology and skills will not happen as long as USA has designs on power and sovreignty. So we are also stuck with a major gap between rich and poor, a major gap between who has job opportunities and who does not. This is the future, and we need a political infrastructure capable of dealing with this reality. Will we be the country of "sorry you're dumb, go live in a cave" or a country that strives to find dignity for all? Will we send geographic regions deeper into blight because the people who stay there are historically not as equipped for new economy jobs? Or will we ensure that kids across the country have equal access to education so their merits can help them rise above the circumstances of their family or their communities?

These are the issues that make me lean toward Democrats rather than Republicans. Life is complicated, many variables, and it's not possible for two choices to capture the best of what we each think is right. But I don't see the end state where people who are suffering think that they will suffer less with a Republican.

Can someone who is suffering but votes republican help me see what they see as a light at the end of the tunnel? Or is it more of an F you, I'm suffering so we're all gonna suffer? I hope there is an actual good that people are chasing rather than just vengeance.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
Back to my unanswered question...

How is she "evil" as in the lesser of the two?

That point is repeated over and over

I suspect by those who just read it somewhere

And don't know their ass from second base
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
I think the evil and crooked and other references to Hillary mask the frustration of class struggles more than anything. I suspect that the woman in power issue is less critical than the idea of someone who embodies the privileged elite continuing to make society better for some while not doing enough to fix the immediate problems for the people who suffer. She was saying the right things to make then system as a whole better for the most people, but she did it in a way that didn't reassure the lower eschelons of our society. It seems more like patronizing than empathizing. I think Bernie had the same problem.

So these issues are not in many people's comfort zone to articulate, so they just latch onto

Crooked Hillary!

The irony of course is that Donald embodies all the worst qualities and policies that will hurt his supporters more than anyone else. But he is just smart enough to know what they want to hear, and unscrupulous enough to say it (and follow through on distracting and/or destructive non-solutions) without concern for honesty or integrity of what will actually help more people.

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 2, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
Trump may try to block Comey testimony

^^^latest news headline on my feed
How would this not be obstruction of justice??

Nah, he ain't crooked...


NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
I was thinking that my analysis of the issue of connecting to the most poor and hopeless parts of our society might seem condescending. I don't think that rich privileged well-meaning folks have all the answers for rich and poor alike. But I do trust educated people more to find solutions that address the range of problems identified.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 2, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
Her negative is mainly her personality.

I am going to agree with you. Hillary comes across as thinking that she was owed the presidency. I didn't like that about her.
I only voted for Hillary because I knew that trump would turn out to be a disaster.
I still blame the Bernie supporters for not voting for her.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 2, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
I get that. I wish we had a leader who had credibility and experience of being really poor, not seeing any better prospects in the future, but somehow rose up out of that and was able to relate the personal circumstances of those folks to the societal ideals that some of us are chasing.

We had such a candidate, his name is Bernie Sanders. We had such candidates in the past: Eugene Debs, Norman Thomas. The powers that rule this country will never let such be elected. Debs was becoming more and more popular, he was imprisoned. Thomas was never a threat. Sanders would have been shot, or had an accident, had he somehow beat the system.

This is your American democracy:

The plutocrats will not give up their position willingly.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
Yep! Hopefully the above-average democrats will nominate an electable candidate next time around.

yes, if the Dems put up a white male who speaks well and has just a little charisma
then they win the White House in 2020

the bigger problem remains the House and Senate

and in the 2018 Midterms coming up it is the Democrats turn to defend a large number of seats

they will probably lose 2-5 Senate seats, and likely pick up a couple of House seats

and so a Dem President and Republican House and Senate, divided government will prevail

just as President Obama had to deal with the last six years of his terms, and nothing got done

we are living in the surreal movie "Idiocracy", and the Deplorables will make sure that continues
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
I for one sure do hope the Democrats run Bernie Sanders or Hillery or some other communist type in 2020....

Lay the cards on the table..... you want free college, free healthcare and more free sh#t go ahead and say it, be honest. Convince the American public that those are all GOOD ideas.

Nut... you over think things to much, you frame your questions as accusations and I don't think for one second you really wish to see things as they really are... only as you wish they were.

Like most Democrats.

Simple answer...most people do not like being told they are stupid by people who claim to be smart, well educated and concerned for everybody. Most people don't like to be told what to do.... the number of guns, the amount of sugar you can consume. Most don't like being told that because they believe in a GOD they are stupid. (even though we don't tell Muslims they are barbaric peoples) Most people don't want to pay more $$$$$$$ to finance stupid pie in the sky ideas. Most people are fed up with the BS that we call government.

Trump is doing just fine... I know this how???

Because most of you liberal types are in a full on panic meltdown and that is a good thing.


dirtbag

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
Because most of you liberal types are in a full on panic meltdown and that is a good thing.


And there you have it. It's all about pissing off the liberals. Always was. Resentment politics.


You have to defeat the trumpkins: you cannot reason with them. Sad, but true.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
Simple answer...most people do not like being told they are stupid by people who claim to be smart, well educated and concerned for everybody. Most people don't like to be told what to do.... the number of guns, the amount of sugar you can consume. Most don't like being told that because they believe in a GOD they are stupid. (even though we don't tell Muslims they are barbaric peoples) Most people don't want to pay more $$$$$$$ to finance stupid pie in the sky ideas. Most people are fed up with the BS that we call government.
Oh, the irony. tRump wants an Authoritarian government That's telling you what you can, and can't do.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
So D-bag..... you see this???

You think this is good??

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/01/california-senate-passes-single-payer-health-care-plan/

where is the $$$$$$$$ going to come from?????

people who work is where.


10B .... how do you see that?? curious, how is he establishing a totalitarian state? What do you know???
Pray tell
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
Lawrence Tribe Tweeted
Comey testimony re his communications w/ Trump can't be blocked by T because they became non-confidential once T discussed them publicly.


He ought to know. Here's who he is: http://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/directory/10899/Tribe
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 2, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
Locker .... I do worry about you to.

XXOOXX
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
Guy, I think you will pay more in your life and get less in return as a consequence of (edit: the Republican agenda).

You might pay less taxes, but you will get more military spending that will not let the taxes come down that much. And you will have more poisoned food, be surrounded by more desperate people willing to kill you for their next drug fix or their next meal, and you will pay more for your healthcare and get less coverage. Further, you will experience fewer medical advances than people in other countries, and you will live with the burden of knowing you are leaving the next generation with worse prospects for prosperity.

I acknowledge a bias toward framing questions as accusations- especially yesterday when I was bothered by other stuff. I apologize for that. Aside from my strong belief in a perspective that is different from yours, I am sincerely curious and seeking to understand what makes you tick, what perceptions or beliefs make this the lesser evil.

What I have gleaned from your statements is that you measure policy outcomes in terms of the frustration experienced by "the other team." That may be just one of several motives or desires. Do you have ideologies that you are marching toward aside from pissing off liberals? I ask without contempt or any I'll will, just true curiosity. Please take me at face value.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
Jun 2, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
So D-bag..... you see this???

You think this is good??


Not in its current form-way too vague. I'm not opposed to a single payer system, though.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
Guy.. Free healthcare and free college....? Other wealthy industrialized countries have these programs...Why can't the US finance the same programs ...? Could it be because the 1% have thoroughly brainwashed the masses into believing it's impossible...? Probably so...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 2, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
#impeachthec*#ks@cker
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:04pm PT
Could it be because the 1% have thoroughly brainwashed the masses

It's actually the 0.1%.

1% includes doctors, lawyers, etc. Who make $350K or more a year. Well off, but not obscenely rich.

The 0.1% has 90% of the nation's wealth. And it continues to grow. THAT is the income inequality that's causing a problem. I don't have a problem with people having lot's of wealth, I have a problem with them using that wealth to control politicians to enact policies that are bad for the other 99.9% so they can continue to get richer and not pay their fair share toward the systems that helped enable them to accumulate all that wealth.

Of course Trump is one of the terrible acting 0.1% and I can't believe the stupidity of the regular income people who support him who can't see how much he is doing to perpetuate the problem at their expense. But people who still support Trump are capable of extreme self delusion to support what they need to believe.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
no such thing as free healthcare and free college

people in those countries voted to pay more in income taxes for both, they want it that way

strange how some in this country who oppose it don't make enough money to pay taxes anyway
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
Please take me at face value.

No worries, I do take most people on this site at face value-- we all know how to climb a jam crack.

But one at a time.

Guy, I think you will pay more in your life and get less in return as a consequence of (edit: the Republican agenda).

I completely disagree and I think you see the problem way differently than I do.

I believe that almost everything the Government does it does so at a huge waste of money. (I have see this with my own two eyes)

I also feel that if the government was not given the power, in the constitution, to do something it should not be doing that. If WE wish for the government to do something for US- WE should amend the constitution...

I have a whole bunch of things I could list but I will not take the time.

so its not really Democrats vs Republican, because I see them as almost the same, they have the same agenda-- control us. in all facets of our life.

So Trump is doing just what I hoped for... rip up the business as usual in Washington DC and cause trouble for the politicians who have failed in their jobs.

That is why I want the parties to become DIFFERENT.... I want to see what Dems want... and I want to see what the Republicans want... really want. DT came along at the right time to mess up the Republicans and Sanders came along at the right time, but HRC had control of the dems so he didn't get a fair shake.

Lets see what Americans want, time to put cards on the table.

back to work...



jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
You chose Trump, now you own him (Ken)


Once again you make inaccurate assumptions. I didn't choose Trump, nor did I vote for him. And Hillary is not evil - where did that come from? But she could not relate to large segments of the population.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Cali
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
Being a libtard, and being in a business that works with government agencies on a regular basis, it is impossible to argue that government wastes a huge amount of money. If run for profit it would probably use half the income. So for many, the prospect of putting more things under government control is not just scary, but stupid. I have a hard time arguing with this.

I think that if we could fix the .1% versus 99.9% problem and make it more 80 / 20 even this would fix a lot of the problems because people would be able to afford their own healthcare, etc. But so long as big business is in control of the government they will confuse people into thinking muslims are the problem instead.

As far as I can see there is only one solution in the end - revolution!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 2, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
I for one sure do hope the Democrats run Bernie Sanders or Hillery or some other communist type in 2020....

Guy, that statement is so wrong.

Back in 8th grade I asked the history teacher why so many people could support a system that is so f*#ked up as socialism. He told me to go to the library and get the answer myself. I did. It was eye opening. Might I suggest you do the same?

Cheers!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 2, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/shields-brooks-trumps-climate-pact-consequences/


Interesting perspective on the Paris decision.
john hansen

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
Ken, that is one of my favorite 12 minutes every week..they speak the truth.

They talked about Trump and how it is all transaction oriented, and just how mean spirited he is in general.



And it made me wonder..


Has he ever read a National Geographic?

Or seen the Milky Way , or recognized the Man in the Moon?

Has he sat around a campfire, had a pet?

I wonder if he has ever made a sincere apology?

Or seen the Periodic Table and understands any of it.

I wonder if he has ever listened to any music that really moved him..

Did he ever read a book when he was young,, like the Hobbit or,,anything

Did he ever study the history of Europe?

Did he ever study a globe?

I wonder if he ever camped out?

Or cooked his own dinner?

Or wrote a letter?

or ever took a photo,,,


I wonder if he understands how the phases of the moon occur, and what causes the tides.

I think the answers to all of these questions is no.

He just really does not know what is going on,,

He has no clue,, and that is what is scary.

I may add to this Rant but this will do to get me started..





rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 2, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
Mighty Hiker...Excellent reply..LMAO
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 2, 2017 - 09:36pm PT

Jun 2, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
Ken, that is one of my favorite 12 minutes every week..they speak the truth.

They talked about Trump and how it is all transaction oriented, and just how mean spirited he is in general.



And it made me wonder..


Has he ever read a National Geographic?

Or seen the Milky Way , or recognized the Man in the Moon?

Has he sat around a campfire, had a pet?

I wonder if he has ever made a sincere apology?

Or seen the Periodic Table and understands any of it.

I wonder if he has ever listened to any music that really moved him..

Did he ever read a book when he was young,, like the Hobbit or,,anything

Ever study the history of Europe?

Ever studied a globe?

I wonder if he ever camped out.

Or cooked his own dinner.

Or wrote a letter.

or ever took a photo,,,


I wonder if he understands how the phases of the moon occur, and what causes the tides.

I think the answers to all of these questions is no.

He just really does not know what is going on,,

He has no clue,, and that is what is scary.

I may add to this Rant but this will do to get me started..





I seriously doubt it.
john hansen

climber
Jun 2, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
Exactly, he has no empathy or soul.

And makes all decisions based on revenge to punish any one who has an opposing view.


It is telling that the Kushner building on 5th avenue is 666.


Steven King could not have written it better.


Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Jun 2, 2017 - 10:30pm PT
Onward to the World of the New Chimera

Welcome to the alt right
Where logic has no bearing
And reason has no place
Where the laws of consequence and justice
Lie down in disgrace

Welcome to a mythic world
Where the Chimera now reigns
With disregard for nothing but brutality and saving face
The counted heads a trifle to
Those hands with blooded stains

Onward to a new world order
Dictated by the few
Cast at odds against your brother Christians, Muslims, Jews
Where dogma intersects with science
What's a child to do?

Welcome to reality
It's gone right off the rails
The apes are loosed upon the city
Reckless and devoid of pity
And no one comes out winning when insanity prevails

Onward numbered programmers
Of every known device
We brought this on ourselves you know to minimize our plight
Reflecting what's inside us
When we hold it to the light

Welcome to the America
Where logic has no meaning
And lost to present hierarchy reason has no place
Where the laws of avarice and power
Now define the human race

Welcome to this place

-bushman
06/02/2017
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 3, 2017 - 07:51am PT
This new Homeless problem affects us all
Homeless camps are springing up everywhere, they have nowhere to go
I call the Reagan Ranches.

I wonder if the Republicans think that Trump or any Republican policy will help decrease the population?

my opinion is that it will get a lot worse now with the GOP lock, they are shredding the safety net, taking away affordable health care, defunding food stamps, eliminating meals on wheels, eliminating Medicaid, privatizing Medicare and SS.

Here is where the 2 sides differ
I want my taxes to keep these people off the streets, I want my taxes to feed people, give them a second chance, give them a job, give them affordable housing and healthcare, provide a retirement program that you paid into all your life
none of this free

I want the rich to pay higher rates of taxes than the poor and middle, I want Corporations to pay taxes on they're profits, and I want to reduce military spending by leaps and bounds

I want us to subsidize science and solar power, and not subsidize oil

You can't have it both ways, either tax cuts for the rich and homeless on the streets, or investment into America and it's people, take your pick

I find this new Trump era toxic, more graffiti, more violence, more hate, more poverty, less jobs
It is the era of the swamp, the swamp creatures have taken control

and to say that he must be doing something right because the libs are having a meltdown is purely divisive, you are promoting division between us.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 3, 2017 - 08:05am PT
Other countries do it well by providing a job, housing, medical housing for the mentally challenged, or a living wage.

There is a certain percentage of the population that will never be able to work, they will have to be dealt with someway or another

some won't work if you give it to them, put them in a tent compound with some restrooms, water, and a food line

The Republican plan seems to "Please jump in the bottomless pit if can't be a productive citizen and pay your way"
"No way am I going to pay for another American that's suffering, screw them, I worked for my hard earned money"
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 3, 2017 - 08:26am PT
San Francisco has a +$200mil budget for homeless programs. The number of homeless appears to have gone up as a result.

Maybe the City has got better, but that's just the City, not the entire area, correct

The problem is that if one city does something to help, more homeless flock to the area since they can't get help any where else
Haven't you seen the South Park Episode

The help has to be Nation wide

dirtbag

climber
Jun 3, 2017 - 09:14am PT

Anyway, I'm still wondering if you know of any good sized to large U.S. cities that have effectively taken the homeless off the streets. I don't know of any, is why I'm asking.

I had read a year or so ago that Utah (I don't remember if it was Salt Lake City in particular) has had a successful program. Sorry, I don't remember the details.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 3, 2017 - 10:00am PT
Rep. Adam Schiff (D)

for President in 2020

smart, good lucking, and most important a straight white male
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 3, 2017 - 11:43am PT


Adam Schiff

Looks good to me. And he's an athlete as well.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 3, 2017 - 11:54am PT
The homeless is a real problem. There is undoubtedly an element of laziness in some small number, but as the problem is analysed here in LA, the largest homeless population in the US, it is more complex.

It turns out many homeless DO work. Some 2 or 3 jobs. The problem is that what people make in min wage jobs is not enough to pay for housing in a region in which it is very very tight. Lack of housing means that housing prices go up.

Also, a lot of the growth in homelessness is in children. I'm not sure what kind of jobs are appropriate for these lazy children.
John M

climber
Jun 3, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
This is actually a states' issue imo. I don't see why people in Montana should be paying to house the homeless in L.A. and I bet they don't either.

The problem is that then the homeless move to the states that do help, causing overburden for those states. Its a national issue. Not a states issue.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 3, 2017 - 11:01pm PT
Maybe Ivanka Trumps shoe factory has some openings???...

Luckily for the workers, L0cker is out there volunteering his free time to help the homeless.

If Ivanka needed a gluuuer for her shooooz he'd be at the front of the line

drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 3, 2017 - 11:18pm PT
This new Homeless problem affects us all
Homeless camps are springing up everywhere, they have nowhere to go

The "New" homeless problem?

Out of touch CFry azzhat...l0l

This is when you realize that REAL azzhole's like Craig Fry are the root of this problem.

You last volunteered when???

Keep voting for your urban slave masters u wretch

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 4, 2017 - 12:31am PT

dirtbag

climber
Jun 4, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Our tweeter, or twitterer, or twit (yeah, that's it) in chief lashes out.

God help us when faced with an emergency here in the U.S.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/06/04/with-his-london-tweets-trump-embarrasses-himself-and-america-once-again/?utm_term=.d4d110f23030

The number one national policy priority after, during, and before healthcare is that we have a know-nothing, impulsive, narcissistic president calling the shots who needs to be removed, the sooner the better.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 4, 2017 - 07:56am PT
oh, but he was the "lesser of two evils"
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 4, 2017 - 09:14am PT

You mean the 'evil of two lessers,' don't you, Norton?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 4, 2017 - 11:47am PT

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/336172-dems-want-hillary-clinton-to-leave-spotlight

This is a problem for the DP.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 4, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
The new Democratic blood and youth have flocked to the Bernie/Warren reform wing while Obama owns the moderate and pragmatic establishment.

Ethical alignment has these two wings woven together at the margins which means there's no place in the party for the Clinton's and they're loyalist.

Perhaps the Clinton's should go form "The End Justifies the Means Party" with other like minded Dems such as Jessie Jackson, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Harry Reid Charlie Rangel, et al.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 4, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
^^^^

nice summation.

with, iirc, 72% of 18-29 y.o.s voting for bernie, the clinton arm and all of their, admittedly often hard fought/won, baggage should be relegated to history with just a little little more continued time/human passing.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 4, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Exactly- fade away with grace, forget party lineage and let your daughter forge her own way with those in the party that have a future.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 4, 2017 - 11:54pm PT
with, iirc, 72% of 18-29 y.o.s voting for bernie, the clinton arm and all of their, admittedly often hard fought/won, baggage should be relegated to history with just a little little more continued time/human passing.

HA! 75% of 18-29's DID NOT VOTE. They thought there was no difference between the two candidates.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 5, 2017 - 08:33am PT
with, iirc, 72% of 18-29 y.o.s voting for bernie, the clinton arm and all of their, admittedly often hard fought/won, baggage should be relegated to history with just a little little more continued time/human passing.

And now that they've cluelessly f*#ked themselves with a right-wing SCOTUS majority for the next thirty years one can only hope that sometime before 2020 they will mature and WAKE THE F*#K UP!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2017 - 08:48am PT
*How's the wall coming along?

*How's the Muslim ban shaping up?

*Where's the better for everyone healthcare?

*Where's the promised stomping of the ISIS bug?

*Are we Great again yet??
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:09am PT
The dems seriously screwed themselves and the country by not including on the ticket the man who got 45% of the electable delegates in the primaries because he was an outsider. Instead they went for the landslide and put lots of resources into Arizona and Texas but couldn't win a single battleground state. And the bumbling fools continue to blame Bernie.

I bet they want a do-over on that one.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:11am PT
^^^^^ This.

But, as I told my youngest son, this is no fun, but basically necessary, for us to wake the f#@& up and decide who we want to be as a country.
I don't think Muslim hating, science denying, anti-Mexican, anti-world is who we want to be...

PS, I know that JGill leans pretty far right, but I'd like to know specifically where he sits on Climate Change, Coal, Paris Accord. Why can't we lead the world on solar, wind, tidal generators, etc?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Yep. Unfortunately, the republicans are too spineless to stand up to the monster they created, even though they secretly grumble about his blatant unfitness.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:30am PT
Gill has already stated his position on climate change. He thinks fighting climate change will widen the gap between the working class and the rich.

Fighting climate change with renewables will actually provide the middle class with jobs, such as installing and maintaining solar panels.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:38am PT
The dems seriously screwed themselves and the country by not including on the ticket the man who got 45% of the electable delegates in the primaries because he was an outsider. Instead they went for the landslide and put lots of resources into Arizona and Texas but couldn't win a single battleground state. And the bumbling fools continue to blame Bernie.

Bullsh#t. Hillary was the candidate. Period. You either voted for her or you personally elected trump - head out of asses before it's too late.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:42am PT
How did that work out for you, Healy?

The Dems tried to dump their legacy, baggage laden, insider candidate on us with no concessions to Sanders and it just didn't work.

With a little thought, the Dems would have seen they could expand their base by including Bernie on the ticket as VP, but the bumbling fools thought they did not need to.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:54am PT
Sanders was unelectable to the Presidency

why you may ask?

because he was never taken seriously and thus never vetted

why waste hundred of millions of dollars telling America about the quasi Communist organizations he belonged to, why bother reminding the voters what a "socialist" is think Hitler
go ahead, read his wiki page

please, Bernie was/is a lovable old guy who speaks as a broken record for the past 40 years
just make sure every sentence has the words = top 1%, rich, big banks

a couple months ago he was chosen to represent the Democrats on a healthcare forum,
it was obvious he had never read the ACA, just like his forum partner Eliz Warren
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:55am PT
Think VP, Norton. Try to focus on the current conversation.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:57am PT
and another naive Bernie person cries out
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:00am PT
Sure, 45% of the electable delegates and huge rallies dwarfing Hillary's. Yeh, that would have made no difference in a razor tight race.

Whatever Norton.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:19am PT
Nothing matters except Hillary was on the ballot. However unpalatable that was the choice: trump or Hillary. Period. Again, you either voted for Hillary or you elected trump.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:21am PT
Funny how you guys blame nearly half the dem primary voters but would not make any concessions to them.

Fools, but at least the Clinton dynasty is over.

Or is it?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:41am PT
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2017 - 10:51am PT
Can't change history, but can try to learn from it. Aside from parties and candidates, what do you actually want? If more people were able to precisely articulate what policies they do want instead of focusing on the shortcomings of other parties or individuals, our democracy would be richer for it.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:57am PT
man o man, the HRC-ites are out in force. What about those that supported other candidates, but swallowed the bile and implicitly endorsed the DNP's f*#kery in the primaries to vote for an unelectably self-determined female, widely reviled candidate?

what for those of us that will not be voting Jackass again in the future?






Nevermind, Bodhi Chaco has the right idea: green grass, blue sky, forget humanity. Mostly.


dirtbag

climber
Jun 5, 2017 - 11:04am PT
Agreed...but Hillary should probably also stop ruminating publicly about her loss.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 5, 2017 - 11:07am PT
Can't change history, but can try to learn from it. Aside from parties and candidates, what do you actually want? If more people were able to precisely articulate what policies they do want instead of focusing on the shortcomings of other parties or individuals, our democracy would be richer for it.


Good post Nut.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 5, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
Locker
You forgot INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!!!!!

Oh, that's right, it's INFRASTRUCTURE WEEK
for Drump, oops, I mean dump. . . oops, I mean . . . well, you know who I mean.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
I think we can find common ground that hillarys time is done

Well, hopefully. She'll be 74 next time around, but the woman is tenacious and seems to have a feeling of entitlement. Both the Clintons have carried victimization to stratospheric heights. It's never their fault.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
UK Guardian:


Trump appeared to have picked up on conservative commentary on Monday morning, noting that the London embassy had not had a full ambassador since January. On Twitter, he blamed Democrats in Congress for slowing the process.

“Dems are taking forever to approve my people, including ambassadors. They are nothing but OBSTRUCTIONISTS! Want approvals,” he tweeted.

However, although Trump announced on 19 January he had picked Woody Johnson, the owner of the New York Jets, to be the ambassador to the UK, Johnson has yet to be formally nominated to the Senate for confirmation.

So far, the Trump White House has made only 11 nominations for 188 ambassadorial posts. The state department is operating without much of its senior management because of a lack of nominations.

Once nominations are made, the Democrats would not be able to block them on their own; the Republicans have a slight majority, which is usually enough to confirm appointments.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 5, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
to vote for an unelectably self-determined female, widely reviled candidate?

Ah, you must not have heard: She got more that 3 million more votes than Donald Trump. I wouldn't call that "unelectable".

Widely reviled? Only because of the success of the GOP propaganda machine, punching out all sorts of "alt-facts".
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Well, hopefully. She'll be 74 next time around, but the woman is tenacious and seems to have a feeling of entitlement. Both the Clintons have carried victimization to stratospheric heights. It's never their fault.

Sort of like Professors who have given decades of service, and feel entitled to a pension on the public's dime.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
One more inaccuracy. Although it's a public employee's fund, we paid a lot of money into it over the years, with the state chipping in as well. Most of that goes back into circulation in the state. It's a very good system, and I do not feel victimized like HRC, who you clearly adore.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:30pm PT
Ken M wrote: "HA! 75% of 18-29's DID NOT VOTE. They thought there was no difference between the two candidates."

where did you get your "facts"? assuming, given your comment about there being no difference between the two candidates, that you are talking about the presidential election, the brookings institute pegged the 18-29 y.o. vote at 50% turnout... the second highest in the last five election cycles. and hillary won the 18-29 y.o. vote 55% vs 39% [to trump].


and healyje wrote: "And now that they've cluelessly f*#ked themselves with a right-wing SCOTUS majority for the next thirty years one can only hope that sometime before 2020 they will mature and WAKE THE F*#K UP!!!"

first: see actual facts as per above...

second: i see you are likely going to continue repeating the same broken recording for the next three and a half years and continue your contribution towards getting either the old or the new trump elected next round as well. [just like hillary is doing with her "excuse tour" and the dem party is doing with their "blame russia" tour]

the dem party needs new vision and new leadership.... period

not the same ole fear based rhetoric that your argument is predicated on.

if all you've got is "the other side is shittier"...

you already lost.



[one last aside: same reason why the "war on terror" is such a fUck show as well...]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:36pm PT
Great, I drew you out. You'd stated about 75% of them voting, then you cited 50%----which means you knew you were stating a wrong figure, for your own "alt-purposes".

Gotcha.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
One more inaccuracy. Although it's a public employee's fund, we paid a lot of money into it over the years, with the state chipping in as well. Most of that goes back into circulation in the state. It's a very good system, and I do not feel victimized like HRC, who you clearly adore.


More "concrete thinking" (look that up!).

You totally miss (or more likely, ignore) the point, which is, you work for decades, with an expectation that you have earned something, but you totally reject EXACTLY the same reasoning on the part of Clinton.

Why am I not surprised? You got yours, f*#k everybody else.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 5, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
Ken M: go back and reread my posts... no contradiction whatsoever...

first post: in the dem presidential candidate election 72% of 18-29 y.o. voters who voted, voted for bernie.

second post: in the presidential election the 18-29 turnout was 50%. [with 55% of those 18-29 y.o.s who voted, voting for hillary]...

two separate elections, and three separate facts. all of which i can cite sources for.

as per yours? i'm still waiting...



see the difference? and willing to admit that you are mistaken?

or are you really as arrogantly and self righteously emotionally incapable of seeing reality as you appear?

if so, don't worry this will be the last time you "draw me out"...
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 5, 2017 - 11:19pm PT
. . . with an expectation that you have earned something, but you totally reject EXACTLY the same reasoning on the part of Clinton

Let's see, I feel entitled to a modest pension that I paid into for nearly thirty years OR I feel entitled to the Presidency of the United States for it is my destiny and I have worked hard for it.

I don't suppose you see the distinctions. Report to the Critical Thinking Lab in the morning for remedial work.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Jun 6, 2017 - 01:48am PT
NutAgain!: i drop in and out of these politard threads, so my apology for the late reply... i appreciate your couple of responses a couple days [aka many thread post moons] ago.

i think part of the challenge is encapsulated with what you said regarding the disconnection from "the poor". the dem party doesn't seem to generally realize that, esp foreign policy speaking, they have become a centre right party [at least under the actual (not professed) guidance of obama (and the clintons before him) and at least as far as a global analysis of right vs left is concerned...]

because here are some of the challenges imo: is there a way to deal with growing inequality without necessarily and completely appealing to increased centralization? at the same time, is there a way to protect the less powerful from the necessarily structured, without assuming that the empowered monad will right all structural wrongs?

i believe there is.

but i suspect it takes recognizing that the right's belief in "the individual" as the fundamental building block of human potential is as mistaken as the left's belief in the "collective" as fundamental building block.



fundamentalism is en route to fUcking kill all of us.

[as always: imesho... and regardless: as always, thank you for honest dialogue]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 6, 2017 - 02:42am PT
What about those that supported other candidates, but swallowed the bile and implicitly endorsed the DNP's f*#kery in the primaries to vote for an unelectably self-determined female, widely reviled candidate?

Pretty simple, they did the right thing and aren't responsible for electing trump.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 6, 2017 - 05:45am PT
Also pretty simple, tell the group you want votes from to take it or leave it without any concessions to them.

They left it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 6, 2017 - 07:30am PT

I'll be blunt - there is a huge freeloader element involved.

Yes. But the real freeloaders run the GOP.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 6, 2017 - 07:53am PT
A lawless presidency:


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/opinion/the-lawless-presidency.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 6, 2017 - 08:02am PT
They left it.

And each and every one of them are personally responsible for electing trump, turning the Supreme Court majority over to the radical right for thirty years which - by definition - f*#ks the progressive agenda up the a*# for that period of time.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 6, 2017 - 08:20am PT
If you give them such a bland, uninspiring, choice, it's on you too.

Next time, the Dem insiders need to make better choices. They treated the nomination as winner take all and would concede nothing to Sanders.

I hope the Dem club learned their lesson well.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:03am PT
If you give them such a bland, uninspiring, choice, it's on you too.

There was nothing "bland" about the choice between hillary and trump. If people had their heads that far up their asses about hillary that they couldn't figure out the difference between her and trump on election day then they're f*#king idiots plain and simple.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:30am PT
Learn from reality, Healy. Playing the bitter old man won't help the next time. The Dems could have expanded their base, even with Clinton on the top spot.

Yippy, we got Timmy Kaine.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:37am PT
I'm not the one who needs to learn from reality - the progressives, young, black and latinos who sank their own agenda for decades are the ones who need to learn because the sad reality is they are the ones who elected trump in faux bitterness over hillary. If they don't get the f*#k over it they'll be getting similar drubbings in 18 and 20.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:42am PT
Yep, the dems need to be responsive to their electorate, and that includes the 45% that voted for Sanders.

Reality shows they were not.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:44am PT
All the hate for Hillary was created by the GOP and Russian smear campaign
period
There was a right wing conspiracy to defame her since the 1990s, that is a fact
2 years before the election Hillary was the Most Admired Women in America

then came Benghazi and this and that, and then turned up to eleven the months before the election

and still people are talking about how she was so corrupt; yet she wasn't corrupt, nor a liar, nor a criminal, nor did she sell uranium to Russia, all BS
she had a good message that you never heard
she had great policies

And to say that the Dems don't have a vision or message is more MSM BS
They just don't discuss it on the news, it's buried, and instead the parrot the line that the Dems don't have a message

If you can't keep your head above the fray of lies and smears, then you will hate the Dem and vote for the lesser of the 2 evils, the GOP candidate in bed with big money with liars at the helm of the board

Bernie would have been smeared to death if he was up against Trump,
The Dems have the same agenda as Bernie, so voting for Hillary would have been just the same as Bernie, Fact

So if you couldn't vote for Hillary, you have been used as fool, you couldn't pull the lever because the propaganda worked on you, and look what it produced, a GOP coup.

It will happen again next election, can you stand up against the lies that will try to damage the Dems?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:48am PT
Think VP, Fry. Try to focus on the current conversation.

You could have had Clinton and Sanders running together.

He beat Clinton in the Michigan and Wisconsin primaries. They would have performed better in the rust belt where the Dems lost by a razor thin margin.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 6, 2017 - 09:52am PT

Jun 6, 2017 - 09:44am PT
All the hate for Hillary was created by the GOP and Russian smear campaign
period


That is patently false. I'm a 37 year old white male who lives in a rural area and works with his hands for a living. I emphatically voted against Clinton in the primaries, as did the majority of Democratic voters in my state.

I have never liked Clinton (Hillary) as a politician. I voted against her in the primaries in '08 as well.

While I held my nose and voted for her in the general, I've never had any trust in her or her words. Trump was just worse by magnitudes.

Take your assumptions about the electorate and shove them straight up your a*#, you pretentious wanna be intellectual.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Exactly!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:12am PT
WHY?
do you hate Hillary?
think she is untrustworthy?
corrupt or whatever?
Because of what you heard from the media
Correct

Did you not form an opinion about Hillary from what YOU Heard or Saw on the media
did you ever meet her in person? NO
so you are full of crap to say the least

The people that met her say she is wonderful

I will note your insults to me, and say your whole post was ugly and
WRONG
She was the only person standing after the primaries, that's how our system works
You vote for the Dem or let the GOP win
It's pretty simple math

Bernie would have a been good VP pick,
People on the inside say Bernie doesn't work with other people, he is only about him and his agenda, he's not a team player
dirtbag

climber
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:18am PT
Who gives a f*#k?

Christ...Move the f*#k on!!!

We need to work on ousting the authoritarian Orange puke and his sycophants in congress instead of clubbing each other's heads over 2016.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:28am PT
Trump has filled just 15 percent of the government’s top science jobs


Senior U.S. diplomat in Beijing embassy resigns over Trump’s climate change decision

The Trump administration has a recruiting problem

Senators. Lawyers. Veterans. A slew of people are declining the opportunity to serve under Donald Trump.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:30am PT
Bombshell Intel Leak Reveals Russia Cyber Attack Targeted Voting Software and Election Officials

NSA document indicates Russian military intelligence could have impacted voting tallies.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/bombshell-intel-leak-reveals-russia-cyber-attack-targeted-voting-software-and

Looks like they got hold of the voter rolls and took Dem voters off the data base, so when they came to vote, they got provisional ballots that weren't counted, = GOP coup
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Brandon, the problem is that you had nothing to base your opinion upon, other than media.

Quite a different story by the people she represented.

When she was a NY Senator, she was extremely popular.

As SOS, she had a nearly 70% approval rating.

So when she was actually serving, she was very liked by the people she was serving.

And what did you KNOW about her? She is a woman?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:33am PT
Infrastructure was Trump’s shot at a bipartisan deal; he left Democrats waiting by the phone

In a different political orbit, the president may have marked “infrastructure week” with a signing ceremony for his first major bipartisan victory.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:40am PT
We need to work on ousting the authoritarian Orange puke and his sycophants in congress instead of clubbing each other's heads over 2016.

And that will be pointless if progressives ultimately turn up their noses at whatever is decided on the dem side to do that - ditto after the primaries and the final 18 and 20 candidate slate.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:47am PT
* TRUMP TRIPLES DOWN ON ‘TRAVEL BAN’: Last night, Trump again tweeted that his travel ban is a travel ban, even if Sean Spicer and the lawyers say it isn’t.


Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
That's right, we need a TRAVEL BAN for certain DANGEROUS countries, not some politically correct term that won't help us protect our people!
6:20 PM - 5 Jun 2017




As Adam Liptak and Peter Baker point out: “In calling the revised order ‘politically correct,’ Mr. Trump suggested that his goal throughout had been to exclude travelers based on religion.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:48am PT
AMERICANS WANT ACTION ON CLIMATE

A new Reuters/Ipsos poll finds:

68 percent of Americans want the United States to lead global efforts to slow climate change, and 72 percent agree “that given the amount of greenhouse gases that it produces, the United States should take aggressive action to slow global warming.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:50am PT
CONGRESSIONAL GOP PLUMMETS ON HEALTH CARE: A new Morning Consult poll finds an enormous swing toward the Democrats on the question of which party is trusted more on health care. In early March, Republicans led, 43 percent to 39 percent, among registered voters. But now, voters back Democrats on the issue by 48-35.

It turns out that pushing a plan that would leave 23 million fewer covered, gut protections for preexisting conditions and cut hundreds of billions from health spending on poor people to fund an enormous tax cut for the rich might turn voters off.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Ruth Ben-Ghiat, a professor of history at New York University who writes extensively on authoritarianism and Italian fascism, told me that a discernible trait of authoritarian and autocratic rulers is ongoing “frustration” with the “inability to make others do their bidding” and with “institutional and bureaucratic procedures and checks and balances.”

Trump doesn’t respect democratic procedure and finds it to be something that gets in his way,” Ben-Ghiat said. “The blaming of others is very typical of autocrats, because they have difficulty listening to a reality that doesn’t coincide with their version of it. It’s part of the authoritarian temperament to blame others when things aren’t working.”
**
Trump expects independent officials “to behave according to personal loyalty, as opposed to following the rules,”** added Timothy Snyder, a history professor at Yale University who wrote “On Tyranny,” a book of lessons from the 20th century. “For Trump, that is how the world is supposed to work. Trump doesn’t understand that in the world there might truly be laws and rules that constrain a leader.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 6, 2017 - 10:59am PT

On Monday, President Trump angrily lashed out at the Justice Department for defending the weaker second version of his immigration ban. This was odd, because Trump himself signed the executive order promulgating that revised version, which was ostensibly designed to address the court’s concerns about the first — objections the White House itself said it hoped to address.

But it turns out that Trump’s anger at the Justice Department has a deeper source: rage at Attorney General Jeff Sessions. The New York Times reports on what’s at the root of it:


He has intermittently fumed for months over Mr. Sessions’s decision to recuse himself from the investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s election, according to people close to Mr. Trump who insisted on anonymity to describe internal conversations. In Mr. Trump’s view, they said, it was that recusal that eventually led to the appointment of a special counsel who took over the investigation.

Beyond this, though, note this: Trump’s seething anger at Sessions is disconcertingly similar to the anger that led him to fire Comey.

As the Times previously reported, Trump privately “burned” as he watched Comey testify to Congress about Russia’s efforts to tip the election to Trump, and was “particularly irked” when Comey conceded his own intervention, via a letter about Clinton’s emails, may have influenced the outcome, which Trump “took to demean his own role in history.” The Post added that Trump was “infuriated” at the FBI’s failure to investigate and stop leaks, which have led to news accounts detailing what the Russia probe was finding.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 6, 2017 - 11:26am PT
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trumps-approval-rating-better-bill-clintons-first-term-621853

Oh oh . . .
dirtbag

climber
Jun 6, 2017 - 11:35am PT
Donald has been in the low 40s high 30s since nearly the beginning. Clinton rebounded nicely.

Is there a plausible path for trump to rebound? With his temperament--I don't see it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 6, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
But, jgill, it isn't true until Rachel Madow says it is.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
Anyone can tear down something. Few can create.

Be wary of politicians or political parties
that campaign on the weakness or failure of the opposition
rather than articulating what they will do.
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
Anyone can tear down something. Few can create.

When it is created with a true solid foundation, not anyone can tear it down.

A true absolute solid foundation can never be torn down ever by anyone ever!

It only becomes hidden and unrecognizable to fools and rascals ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 7, 2017 - 01:18am PT
Over time I've come to like how you can start to tell what certain words or ideas are going to trigger one of Werner's Vedic-Tourette outbursts. That seems ironically similar to Groucho Marx's 'You Bet Your Life' TV Show where a duck that looked like Groucho would drop from the sky if you uttered the 'secret word'.


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:02am PT
Even Republicans are starting to acknowledge that tax cuts are a sham. Kansas governor Sam Brownshirt just got smacked down.

The Republican-controlled state Legislature on Tuesday overwhelmingly overrode Brownback’s veto of desperately needed tax increases. The action rolls back much of Brownback’s 2012 tax cuts, producing a $1.2-billion shot of adrenaline for the state budget over two years.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-brownback-override-20170607-story.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:12am PT
the onset of the GOP police state:

A Georgia sheriff ordered pat-down searches for every student at a public high school.

Now they’re suing.
"I wanted to turn around and tell him to stop touching me," one student said. "I wanted it to be over and I just wanted to call my dad because I knew something wasn't right."
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:24am PT
Even Republicans are starting to acknowledge that tax cuts are a sham.

Hell, even Ronnie knew that 30+ years ago
Norton

Social climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Fox News’ Neil Cavuto Calls Out Donald Trump:

*** Stop Scapegoating. You Are The Problem.
“Mr. President, it is not the fake news media that’s your problem. It’s you.”**
Norton

Social climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Even Republicans are starting to acknowledge that tax cuts are a sham.

Hell, even Ronnie knew that 30+ years ago

yes, Reagan cut taxes and the economy went into recession
he did it again with the same result

he then raised taxes 11 times, no more recession and into recovery

The Bush Republicans cut taxes in 2003, by 2008 the economy was in the worst recession
since the Great Depression

at some point Republican ignorance and those who vote for them has to be called out strongly
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 7, 2017 - 11:04am PT
at some point Republican ignorance and those who vote for them has to be called out strongly

It has been and for some time, obviously not strong enough, and the fact that it has speaks volumes about your 'everyday' republican. It is where the greatest amount of cognitive dissonance exists, at least what I have seen in my lifetime.

But hey tax cuts for the wealthy few sure will make America great again...as in a 'greater' depression. But hey, if it pisses liberals off then it must be good.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 7, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Forbes: Charity money went to Trump business

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/06/07/dan-alexander-forbes-eric-trump-charity-golf-tournament-donald-j-trump-foundation-ctn.cnn
Norton

Social climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
Just read Comey's statements regarding his meeting with Trump prior to being fired.

If a Democratic President had said what Trump said to Comey, impeachment proceedings for Obstruction of Justice would already be in full swing. Big show tomorrow.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 7, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
Holy sh#t... Obstruction of justice...? Nothing to see here... I have a sick feeling Trump is going to walk away unscathed....
dirtbag

climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
Probably, but he's destroying the GOP nationally.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 09:42pm PT
Yeah, but it will likely be a terrible journey getting there. It's just getting started.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 7, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
You're right.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 7, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
Poll: 61% of Americans Think President Trump Fired James Comey to Protect Himself
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 8, 2017 - 02:21am PT
Ken M copy/paste stupidity thread.

Get a life
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 8, 2017 - 06:56am PT
drF, do you ever offer anything but personal insults?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 8, 2017 - 11:18am PT
Don’t Let James Comey’s Hearing Distract You From Republicans’ Obamacare Repeal Efforts

Senate Republicans are closer than ever to passing their own health care bill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/james-comey-obamacare-repeal_us_593946bee4b0c5a35c9cb4a4?f3i&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Republicans are well on their way to repealing the Affordable Care Act, putting millions of people at risk of losing their health insurance. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Wednesday took steps to fast-track their efforts, sidestepping the typical committee hearings in favor of closed-door meetings. And many Republicans are avoiding their own town hall meetings, where the subject is likely to come up.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 8, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
Turn that frown upside down bro! The world goes on, the end is not neigh.

DMT

Sure, and life should be enjoyed while it can.

But the USA has no god given right to a peaceful society with a general respect for human rights and overall good governance.

Life goes on, for instance, in Russian and Turkey but those authoritarian societies aren't what I want to see the US slide toward.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 8, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
I'm glad that incompetent boob is president right now. When the Republican make up an excuse to impeach him and they put Pence in charge, watch out!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
Something huge flying under the radar of the Comey spectacle...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
Big news slipping in under cover of the Comey testimony:
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/337004-house-passes-sweeping-bill-to-strip-post-recession-banking-rules

The arguments in favor:
https://financialservices.house.gov/choice/

I start by acknowledging my bias against the repeal of regulation. The strongly persuasive (rather than expository) writing style in the "pro" website raises some alarm with me... it reeks of marketing spin, and the arguments are very much cherry-picked rather than being an even-handed analysis. That said, some of the arguments make me think there is some merit to consider the perspective.

Specifically, the idea that financial markets and risk can change very quickly, more so than a bureaucratic process to define risk classes that govern bank asset and capital holding requirements. I agree a dynamic solution would make more sense to that piece. That is a real concern that needs a better solution. Maybe something as simple as an institution like the Fed with financially savvy overseers making quarterly adjustments to definition of risk for different asset classes.

Overall, I very strongly believe in the need of the government to protect the needs of people, and the principle of defining asset classes so a more nuanced picture of risk management can be enforced to save our society from a large-scale financial meltdown. The solution in the version of the bill passed by the House, which deregulates risk by just having a blunt "10% capitalization", is totally inadequate.

Let me share a simple personal case to show how having just 10% capitalization can be disastrous, and in no way should this be considered "safe" or "conservative". As a young lad during the dotcom era, I was doing well with income and even better with stock investments. I got greedy and at the peak (less than 4 years into my career) I owned a house and a convertible Mercedes and had $750k of my own money controlling $2M worth of stock. I was diversified into quality stocks that all rebounded after the crash, so my stock choice was not fundamentally the problem. The fundamental problem was the ratio of my risk to my equity. I had the potential of losing all of $2M worth of stock (unlikely), but I only had $750k of my own money to cover it if that happened. If there was a 50% reduction in stock prices, I would not just lose 50% of my $750k. I would lose 50% of the $2M. To keep it brief, that is pretty close to what happened. I rode $750k of my own money that I could have withdrawn at any moment, I rode that down to only $5k in a few months! As it turned out, the brand new Mercedes convertible (my wife at the time's choice- not mine) turned out to be our best investment in the dotcom era. We sold it after a year for the same price as we bought it. I digress...

The core issue here is the idea of leveraged investments. Leverage is great when you only have a small force and want to move something big. But it can also be risky if the big item gets out of control. Think of a huge load of bricks or machinery on the short end of a lever, with one person controlling the other end of the lever. Same thing with money. Using a small chunk of one's own money to control a bigger pool of money and trying to make a profit on it, well it's like an amplifier for good or bad. It's nuts to think of our financial institutions all doing it. With 35% of my assets covered, I still road $750k down to $5k. Yes I was stupid and immature and bla bla... but consider the crazy exposure and and risk and consequences that banks balance with only 10% asset coverage, which is what they are trying to pass off as safe. That's the kind of risk and stress that leads bankers to jumping out of their windows when it hits the fan. It's even crazier to think they were operating with 1% or less coverage of their money, essentially sucking in as much profit as anyone can conceive when it favored them, and then when it all hit the fan as it inevitably would, the US Govt had to bail them out to stop a global financial meltdown and destruction of our civilized mechanism of using money as an intermediary to barter goods and services.

So a few things wrong with the proposed repeal:

1. They are suggesting to let entities go bankrupt rather than get a bail-out. That sounds good to ignorant unsophisticated people, like it is holding people accountable. But the reality is, with large financial institutions, it is a global security threat to let that happen. When faced with that future outcome, our government will pass a special exception to bail out whatever greedy bastard company has blown it, because it will be necessary to our national security and maintaining our civilization. I think the only responsible way to deal with this is to break up the entities so there is no such thing as "too big to fail", so that bankruptcies are viable. I did a search of the proposed legislation (which has already passed the House), and there are only 5 references to the word "size" and none of them discuss the size of the institution. So looks like a superficial FAIL on the idea of bankruptcy vs. bail-out.

2. Just looking at a percentage of leverage in terms of asset dollars vs equity dollars is inadequate. There's a big difference between having 10% covered assets when I am investing in USA T-Bills versus sub-prime mortgages or speculative 3rd-world investments or derivative financial products. The ONLY way this bill passes is because of the ignorance and lack of sophistication of most people (myself included) to understand the nuances of different "get rich quick" schemes by which banks aggregate wealth for their management team and investors, while shifting the risk to other entities.


Banks provide some essential services in our modern society, but much of their behavior is parasitic on the common good, and there needs to be stronger and more comprehensive rules to reign them in.


I look forward to counter-arguments.
Gorgeous George

Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
Jun 8, 2017 - 04:30pm PT
I've been too busy at work to join in the fun . . . BUT KEEP AT IT SCOTT.

I have found myself saying this a lot recently:

"Let me count the ways . . ."

As in every day the top ten reasons why Trump should be impeached changes like a game of "musical chairs." Or, much like the game "Whack-a-mo." Just as soon as you knock one down another one pops up in its place, so fast that you can't keep up with them.

And of course, the idiots that support him. The smart ones are starting to slip down out of view, like trying to keep from being seen by a cop that just pulled up next to you. The not so swift ones just ignore the mounting avalanche of evidence of his incompetence, his diabolical deceitfulness, his incredible dereliction of duty, and his clinical anti-social personality disorder.

TO IGNORE THE FACTS DOES NOT CHANGE THEM.

I wish I could kick him in the balls, which is what I used to say about Pinochet at 90+ years old.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 8, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
GW Bush was a coward....

No institution is to big to fail

That is a crock of bull.

If Bush would have simply said "no-- we will not bail you out.. figure it out for yourselves"

we would be in a better position now.

Many many banks did not go along with the reckless scam because- guess what..."we are not stupid"

But I think the whole deal was caused by the Government when they started telling banks that it was a requirement to lower the standards to acquire a mortgage.... for what ever political reason. (all presidents like to point out the totally useless stat of "percentage of home ownership"

and before you all tear me a new one I would like to point out the fact that.... there was no mortgage crisis in Switzerland.

Nut and others, let me ask you this: Why do you always think that the Federal Government should do something? Be the decider and controller of everything?

I don't get it.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
I have first-hand experienced an experiment in this laissez-faire style of regulation. India. I'm not talking about a glorious stroll through the mountains on a few week vacation, but the gritty day to day life of living in a city. They do have laws, but the resources to enforce them are so limited that it is essentially a wild-west type of country. It is a perfect microcosm of what our country will become under a policy of general deregulation. People who are "middle class" can live in far greater luxury than we are accustomed to. The ones who enjoy this are either working with an income based from a foreign country, or people who have questionable morals and abuse their position. Examples of this small "middle class" include doctors and lawyers and engineers, who can afford to have a staff of house workers who cook, clean, drive the cars, watch the kids, etc. They also might have armed guards stationed outside their houses (which they need because of the constant threat of crime). Then you have homeless people living by the rivers dying during heatwaves. Foreigners surrounded by children with deformed calloused knees from spending a lifetime begging. Free charity hospitals giving kids vaccinations that are supposed to be refrigerated, but they store them on shelves in the heat because they can't afford the refrigeration. People squatting and shitting in public next to train tracks. Massive trash piles at the end of each street because the local trash collection company has a contract and receives government payment but they don't actually collect anything. The nasty smell of burning trash ever in the air. Massive cancer clusters in the towns that manufacture chemicals or process leather goods. Public armed riots between religions, with women hauled out and raped in front of family members.

These are not abstract hypotheticals or strawman arguments. These are things I have directly experienced or that have shaped the lives of relatives close to me. In part, my marriage was marred by the long-term emotional consequences of crap like this echoing through a family over time. A tiny, almost inconsequential example: my ex mother-in-law was in a traffic accident with a carload of thugs from some local gang, her vehicle was a total loss. She went to the police station to report it so she could collect on the insurance, and the thugs knew when she was going and followed her in there and intimidated her in front of the police. The police observed all this and asked if she still wanted to report it, with no effort to support her. She declined in order to preserve her health, and we ended up buying her a new car because she couldn't afford a replacement and couldn't file a police report with the insurance. A person in India with no ex-pat rich relatives would just lose their car and be screwed in a situation like that. Heck, a person in India with their own car is already a lucky part of the tiny "middle class" if not the wealthy class.

This is what true freedom is. It is ruthless. It is scary. It is unpredictable. And as human beings with a little compassion, we can use our intellect to band together for the betterment of all and figure out how to make our collective world safer. To rise above our basest instincts, our "fittest" individuals. Sometimes we need laws to protect us from each other, from corporations, and from the government itself. But just taking the trivial approach of getting rid of regulations is to throw one's hands up and abdicate responsibility for caring for ourselves, our families, our neighbors, our friends, our society. It's a way of saying you lack the patience or vision or tenacity to solve the problems. Sometimes it requires an iterative approach, to try fixes and then to make corrections and apply additional fixes to correct the side-effects of your last fix.

It is only through inexperience and ignorance that a person can think our society is better off with less regulation. The bottom line is that without regulation, we end up with thugs aggregating power and doing what they want at the expense of the weak people around them. Corporations that exist to make a profit are not inherently evil, but they are inherently amoral and exist first and foremost to maximize profit, without regard to what impact that has to other entities. The smart thugs of the modern world use corporations to elevate themselves at the expense of others around them, because doing so is legal. Thugs get to be thugs without going to jail.

A smarter society would recognize this dynamic and put in place checks to prevent these abuses. But other folks who have an incomplete picture of the benefits and costs of freedom call out for deregulation, much to our collective peril.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 8, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
guyman... Bend over...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 8, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
If Bush would have simply said "no-- we will not bail you out.. figure it out for yourselves"

The fallacy of your argument is that it was the banks dictating to Bush, not Bush telling banks what they were going to do.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 8, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Ahh, but the deliberative body, the senate, won't pass that bill . . .
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 8, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
America Lost $10.2 Trillion Of Wealth In 2008 - Business Insider

http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/2/america-lost-102-trillion-of-wealth-in-2008

Feb 3, 2009 - U.S. homeowners lost a cumulative $3.3 trillion in home equity during 2008, according to a report from Zillow. (MortgageWire.) One in six homeowners is now underwater on their mortgage. The stock market erased $6.9 trillion in shareholder wealth in 2008.


Bush lost our $10.2 trillion, plus many more trillions added to the national debt
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2017 - 09:41am PT
Ahh, but the deliberative body, the senate, won't pass that bill...

It seems the pattern is for the House to pass something absurd and scary, more or less as a bargaining tool to make the Republicans in the Senate seem more neutral and centrist. We are so scared of what might happen as a result of the House that we become thankful of just giving a smaller concession as part of the Senate version... sort of a "good cop bad cop" game.

The game and tactical nature of this relationship is somewhat revealed in a quote in this article:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/08/news/economy/house-dodd-frank-repeal/index.html

On Thursday, Hensarling said he regularly speaks with Crapo, who he said has "encouraged" him to pass the bill.

Basically, the Senate guy is encouraging the House guy to pass the more extreme version to give the Senate folks more negotiating power.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jun 9, 2017 - 09:53am PT
NutAgain raises some good points.
This whole deregulation and industry self regulation thing leads to lots of consequences, mostly bad for the general population but great for the criminals, banksters, and the 1%.
What is the ideal for big rollback of govt? Somalia?
Also look what big tax cuts did for Kansas
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 9, 2017 - 09:56am PT
Here comes the next disaster for the middle class

House votes to kill Dodd-Frank

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/08/news/economy/house-dodd-frank-repeal/index.html

hey Nutagain, we're referencing the same article!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 9, 2017 - 11:22am PT
Drug crisis pushing up death rates for almost all groups of Americans


After falling for a century, the overall death rate for Americans ages 25 to 44 rose 8 percent between 2010 and 2015.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 9, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
In Leaked Tape Mitch McConnell Admits The Koch Brothers Are Running The Republican Party

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/08/27/leaked-audio-tape-mitch-mcconnell-admits-koch-brothers-running-republican-party.html

In a leaked audio tape of the Koch brothers top secret June 2014 retreat, Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) not only admitted that the Republicans would be lost without the Kochs, and revealed who the real power is in the GOP.

The main topic of his speech was Citizens United, and how the wealthy and corporations should control our elections. In the process of praising Citizens United, McConnell described how the Koch infested Supreme Court has opened the door to conservative billionaires buying the government, “And we’ve had a series of cases since then that I’ve filed amicus briefs in and had lawyers arguing in. We now have, I think, the most free and open system we’ve had in modern times. The Supreme Court allowed all of you to participate in the process in a variety of different ways. You can give to the candidate of your choice. You can give to Americans for Prosperity, or something else, a variety of different ways to push back against the party of government. It has nothing to do with overly political speech.”

The little part at the end where McConnell states that the billionaire dollars have nothing to do with overt political speech was a total lie. The Koch money is about buying and electing the candidates who will carry out the conservative billionaire agenda.

Everything links together. Without the Koch infested Supreme Court, the Republican billionaire funding pipeline wouldn’t exist. The Koch billionaire group is trying to cut the people out of the democratic process in order to create a government that revolves around their own interests.

The leaked tapes prove that the Republican Party revolves around the interests of billionaires and big corporations.

The GOP is a Koch organized and funded operation. The Kochs set the agenda, and if Republicans take back the Senate, the American people will have given control of the Congress to the Koch brothers.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 9, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
Tillerson called for the Saudi-led bloc of nations to ease the blockade on Qatar. An hour later, Trump contradicted him.


Secretary of State Rex Tillerson wanted to resolve the week-long Persian Gulf dispute, warning that the blockade causes humanitarian hardship and has hindered U.S. military actions against ISIS. Then the president called the Saudi-led action “hard but necessary.”


You wonder how much of this these guys can take?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 9, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
New York attorney general ‘looking into’ Eric Trump’s foundation

The inquiry comes after Forbes magazine raised questions about whether President Trump's son had made misleading statements about how the foundation spent its money
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 9, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
They'll get tired of Trumps micro-managing and ego and bail...
WBraun

climber
Jun 9, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
You fools can't even save your own selves and what to speak of saving the USA ......
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 9, 2017 - 10:04pm PT
Nut and others, let me ask you this: Why do you always think that the Federal Government should do something? Be the decider and controller of everything?

Because there are people in this country incapable of making decisions affecting their lives.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 10, 2017 - 03:08am PT
Locker that is hilarious, I love the last part with the cat going round and round.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 10, 2017 - 07:30am PT
New election analysis: Yes, it really was blatant racism that gave us President Donald Trump


http://www.salon.com/2017/04/19/new-election-analysis-yes-it-really-was-blatant-racism-that-gave-us-president-donald-trump/
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 10, 2017 - 09:51am PT
You have some natural ability....hopefully you will roadtrip to some outdoor areas. Who knows where that might lead?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 12, 2017 - 04:04pm PT
Just about the time I was thinking that Norton was one of those non-climbers who wandered into a climbing site expressly to argue politics, he has posted a photo of himself.

My mistake.
john hansen

climber
Jun 12, 2017 - 09:44pm PT
Saddam Hussain


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUktJbp2Ugt

And then there is Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ARgUIpM6f0


You would think just one of our Congressmen or Senators or even one of his advisor's would be brave enough to tell him the truth.

"You lie and undercut all of us all the time and then you make us look like fools in front of cameras praising your leadership,"
This is a loyalty oath , plain and simple, that will be used against him in a court of law.


"Did he ask you or any of the other Cabinet Members to pledge loyalty ?"

I think he just did that with all members of his Cabinet.

They should all be ashamed for bowing to his will, you could see Tillerson on his left and Mattis on his right looking shell shocked.

I am sad that this man is our president.



We do not need a game show host running our country.




madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 12, 2017 - 11:25pm PT
New election analysis: Yes, it really was blatant racism that gave us President Donald Trump

Said by no less than that ultimate paragon of objectivity: Salon!

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa

Yup, just keep that echo goin'.

It is flat-out fun to drop in now and then and see that the echo is still going strong. Keep it up! Like rock and roll, it can never die.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 13, 2017 - 06:39am PT
I don't want to blame it on one person but i feel it was Fear , the Supertopo poster , who gave us Trump... Yeah , his fault..
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 13, 2017 - 07:27am PT
Seriously?

Dingus, if there were people who made the right decisions about their life, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2017 - 07:41am PT
Why do you always think that the Federal Government should do something? Be the decider and controller of everything?

It's a ridiculous and loaded question that just plays into the endless anti-government nutjobbery on both the left and right.

If you want to get rid of a pointless government I'd say we've way, way outgrown the notion of states. They were a good idea when you traveled by horse for days or weeks to get to Philadelphia or DC. Now, however, their individual interests and laws are highly obstructive to interstate commerce and infrastructure upgrades, tend to favor certain industries, and accord rights and protections which vary wildly from state to state.

I'd say dump the whole notion of states as little more than an anachronism and move on...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 13, 2017 - 07:51am PT
I don't want to blame it on one person but i feel it was Fear , the Supertopo poster , who gave us Trump... Yeah , his fault..

Yes, I did 'vote' for the small handed Orange one over the cackling war criminal.

So please, feel free to assign blame. It's usually my fault.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 13, 2017 - 07:58am PT
Obviously we have nothing to fear, but fear himself.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:37am PT
Yes, I did 'vote' for the small handed Orange one over the cackling war criminal.


Fear I am with you......


Drain the swamp.


I'd say dump the whole notion of states as little more than an anachronism and move on...

Healyje...... so you are a Federalist. At least you are honest.

Seriously?

DMT.


I recon I asked a serious question ......


So I ask this.... When are you Democrats going to Shoot your wad on this impeachment thing???? Maxine Watters, Brad Sherman, Pelosi and Adam Shift are about "there".

How about you Dudes?????

Time to bring the hi-crimes to the floor????

Cards on the table.

Let's see them.



c wilmot

climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Emergency room visits by people on Medi-Cal rose 75 percent over five years, from 800,000 in the first quarter of 2012 to 1.4 million in the last quarter of 2016, according to data recently released by the state’s Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development.
The most dramatic increase began roughly around the time the ACA expanded health care benefits in January 2014.


I knew this would happen.

Being "insured" doesn't always mean you will have access to medical care...



http://www.redding.com/story/news/2017/06/12/medi-cal-patients-flocking-ers-more-than-before-aca/389762001/
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:47am PT

Drain the swamp.

Clueless.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:47am PT

Bluering lives!!
Through Guyman,
Such good entertainment, our very own Fox telling us what we should believe!

I guess the swamp will be drained when the whole GOP collapses under the internal corruption and ties to Russia
Thanks Trump, you're doing a fine job on making it happen

Their only Campaign Message for 2018 seems to be if you run against a Republican, you will get death threats from wacko right wingers

Kim Weaver, the candidate Iowa Democrats had nominated to challenge Rep. Steve King in the state’s 4th congressional district, formally withdrew from the race over the weekend citing a number of factors, including threats against her life.

“Beginning during my 2016 campaign, I have received very alarming acts of intimidation, including death threats,” Weaver wrote in a Saturday Facebook post. “While some may say enduring threats are just a part of running for office, my personal safety has increasingly become a concern.”
Part of their Fascist Takeover I guess, jail or threaten to kill off the opposition
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:05am PT
Drain the swamp.

Hahahahahahaha!!! That's rich! Guy, do you really believe he drained the swamp, I mean other than to find people to appoint to his cabinet?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:06am PT
WaPost documentation of Trump keeping his promises:

Trump administration grants work permits to thousands of illegal immigrants
Norton

Social climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:14am PT
^^^^^

**It’s a violation of a campaign promise,” said Dale Jackson, a conservative radio host in Huntsville, Ala., who asked White House press secretary Sean Spicer in February why Trump had not ended the program.

Jackson emphasized that unlike some of Trump’s other promises, such as repealing the Affordable Care Act or building a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border wall, the president could halt the issuance of work permits through executive decree without congressional approval.

“This is completely within his singular power to do by himself,” he said. “There’s no rationalization I can come up with. The guy said one thing during the campaign and he’s outright not doing it.”**
Norton

Social climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:18am PT
"fear" blurted

Yes, I did 'vote' for the small handed Orange one over the cackling war criminal.

ok, make your case that Hillary Clinton is a "war criminal"

what crimes was she charged, prosecuted and convicted on?

how many US soldiers, war planes, did she order into action to commit "war crimes"?

cite the section of the Constitution that gives the Sec of State the authority to do do

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:24am PT
Being "insured" doesn't always mean you will have access to medical care...

Actually, your post directly contradicts your assertion. You note a 75% increase in ER usage. The patients could have gone, before, but did not.

Why? What is happening?

Something happened to give these people access to medical care, which the ER is.

And what that "something" is that created access, was becoming insured through the MediCal Program.

Whereas before, they would have been saddled with huge medical bills.

Why not just go to cheaper "clinics"? According to YOUR article:

Moreover, many Medi-Cal patients work jobs without flexible hours or sick leave, which means they are not able to make appointments or visit healthcare providers during regular hours, Pan said.

“When I worked in the emergency room,” he recalled, “people would show up early in the morning with their kids who had an ear infection or cold or something and the parents would tell me, ‘Well, I have to go to work today or I’ll get fired.’”

and:

Health clinics, which see many Medi-Cal patients, generally cannot provide specialty care on site, he said. “What’s the quickest way to see a specialist? Send them to the emergency room.”

Note that in that setting, it is the Clinic that is sending them to the ER.

There is also an unintended consequence: Prior to the ACA, ERs of hospitals were generally money losers, and hospitals were in financial straits. Because of this big uptick in volume, the ERs are generally much more financially stable, making the hospitals also more stable.

And that's a good thing.

It's also worthwhile to look at what happened in Mass, which had the equivalent of ACA a decade earlier: There was an initial uptick in ER usage.

http://archive.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/07/04/emergency_room_visits_grow_in_mass/
c wilmot

climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:36am PT
Ken m- it's not my article.
As for access:
"The architects and proponents of Obamacare had argued that once people got health coverage they would stop going to the ER so much, because they could visit primary care doctors instead. But in reality, people who were uninsured before the ACA were actually reluctant to go to the ER unless they were “about to die,” because they would be saddled with big bills, said state Sen. Richard Pan (D-Sacramento), a pediatrician. Under Medi-Cal, though, patients aren’t worried about those expenses."

the Aca was supposed to give the poor access to primary care doctors so they would not have to go the er- yet they are going in higher numbers than ever. While it's true the cost was always a factor so was access to a doctor by appointment. The Aca was supposed to allieveate the problem. unfortuently because of low reimbursment costs there has been a shortage of doctors willing to treat medical patients. If you are told to wait months to see a doctor- and you won't have to deal with an er bill- what do you do?

You go to the er...which is absurdly expensive. Those added costs are passed on to others. That's a problem.

And in regards to supposed benifits of increased er visits:

"Historically, doctors across the country have been reimbursed less for treating Medicaid patients than those on private insurance or Medicare — especially in California, which ranks 47th in the country in fee-for-service reimbursement rates.
This means the state’s doctors are less likely to accept Medi-Cal patients, who will then seek treatment wherever they can get it, Futernick said. The ER is always open and cannot legally turn people away, even though many of the Medi-Cal patients’ ills could be treated by primary care providers, Emerson-Shea said."


perhaps I am confused- but are you claiming a 75% increase in er visits by the poor for medical issues that are not emergencys- is a positive for society?








guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 13, 2017 - 10:51am PT
Norton..... before HRC went to sleep she ordered a stand down in Lybia... abandoning Brave Americans to their fate at the hands of armed Muslim killers.

I have nothing more to say about HRC, except that she is a worthless excuse for a person.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 01:01pm PT
before HRC went to sleep she ordered a stand down in Lybia... abandoning Brave Americans to their fate at the hands of armed Muslim killers.
This has been proven to be 100% wrong,
like all of Guyman's talking points, it's based on lies

and it was the video all along, Like HRC said,
the leader of the terrorist group said it was the video that instigated the terrorist raid
They caught him, he was the person that killed the 4 Americans, not Hillary.
A local CIA outpost had made the stand down order (maybe)

no air strike could be mounted in the time needed, so it really did't matter.

But really, it was the GOP that cut funds for security that let these 4 Americans die, Republicans would not provide the needed funds after they requested them. It's funny how little we heard about this aspect of the scandal!

The Benghazi scandal was based on lies that right wingers made up,
but after they couldn't pin any thing on Hillary they moved over to the e-mail scandal and came up again with zero after 10s of millions wasted, and Hillary reputation in shatters because of the constant lying and smearing.
But that was the point from the beginning, just keep lying and investigating to kill her reputation.

Fear's war criminal BS is based on taking down Gaddafi
He somehow thinks incorrectly that it was Hillary's war,
she had nothing to with the UN Security Counsel Resolution decision to take action in Libya by the NATO led group.
We've had this debate before.

He can't seem to correct the lies in his head for some reason,
Maybe it's the fear of being taken seriously? can that be it?
or is he just trolling
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
Russian Cyber Hacks on U.S. Electoral System Far Wider Than Previously Known

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-13/russian-breach-of-39-states-threatens-future-u-s-elections

Illinois became Patient Zero in the government’s probe, eventually leading investigators to a hacking pandemic that touched 39 U.S. states.

Using evidence from the Illinois computer banks, federal agents were able to develop digital “signatures” -- among them, Internet Protocol addresses used by the attackers -- to spot the hackers at work.

The signatures were then sent through Homeland Security alerts and other means to every state. Thirty-seven states reported finding traces of the hackers in various systems, according to one of the people familiar with the probe. In two others -- Florida and California -- those traces were found in systems run by a private contractor managing critical election systems.

(An NSA document reportedly leaked by Reality Winner, the 25-year-old government contract worker arrested last week, identifies the Florida contractor as VR Systems, which makes an electronic voter identification system used by poll workers.)

In Illinois, investigators also found evidence that the hackers tried but failed to alter or delete some information in the database, an attempt that wasn’t previously reported. That suggested more than a mere spying mission and potentially a test run for a disruptive attack, according to the people familiar with the continuing U.S. counterintelligence inquiry.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 13, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
There is nothing that Hitlery did, stole or lied about that rises to the treasonous actions of the Pussy Grabber & Thief and his extended family.

He is a Stooge, (look it up)
Or puppet of a foreign power.

The level of disregard for the rules governing the taking of money or emoluments anything of value, aside, there is the clear failure to live up to his oath of office.
Treason, what is the penalty?


At least Three people are now running empty agencies,

Also

The Bannon Doctrine,
Destroy the structures of our government from the top down .
Others can pull the links. .
How many un-filled positions are there ?
is there a justice department?
There is no department of education or environmental protection. ( we will all be paying for trump water)
And the roll backs of standards in both is a plan to destroy the American Republic.

I'm going to go and get the Quotes from the Nazi horde, attributed to that fine human that
The Pussy Grabber & Thief clearly holds in the highest regard.the Bannon Doctrine?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
This is what the Trump voters voted for,

all because Hillary had a private server!!!!!

I bet the Trump admin is using private servers and no one cares in the least bit
it's the most incompetent Admin ever...
How many dead because of Trump's war crimes?
They don't care
hypocrites

The GOP kills 4 Americans in Libya because of their negligent policies of cost cutting so the rich can have more tax cuts, they shift the blame, lie
and get idiots to call Hillary a war criminal,
can you be any more of a dupe?

Just have Fox News or whatever tell them what you want them to believe, and they will obey, no questions asked.
That's why they still think Trump is innocent and doing a great job, they are bubble brains..
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
I was on the House Judiciary Committee that began the consideration of impeaching of President Bill Clinton. Armed with information from independent counsel Kenneth Starr, we were convinced the president had lied under oath. We drafted articles of impeachment, and a majority of the House concurred with our assessment. The Senate subsequently determined that there wasn’t sufficient cause to remove him from office. In retrospect, a public censure or reprimand may have been more advisable.

Regardless, Clinton was impeached for charges less serious than the ones before us now. In the current case, Comey was exploring the possibility of American involvement in the Russian plot, a treasonous offense. While it’s not time to start drafting articles of impeachment, it is time to pursue this investigation into Russian meddling in our presidential election with vigor, without friends to reward and without enemies to punish

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-helped-draft-clintons-impeachment-articles-the-charges-against-trump-are-more-serious/2017/06/13/a15f819e-4fab-11e7-be25-3a519335381c_story.html?utm_term=.71e362c2a743

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 13, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
This has been proven to be 100% wrong,
like all of Guyman's talking points, it's based on lies

and it was the video all along, Like HRC said,
the leader of the terrorist group said it was the video that instigated the terrorist raid
They caught him, he was the person that killed the 4 Americans, not Hillary.
A local CIA outpost had made the stand down order (maybe)


Dr. F Lies????
The way I see it it’s a matter of RESPONSIBILITY…. You do know what that means, don’t you?
President Obama and HRC were in charge, because that is the job they held at the time.
It is not a LIE that 4 people got slaughtered.
And they WERE in Charge at the time, so therefore I believe that the blood of those people is on the hands President Obama and HRC and others who were in charge at the time.
No-lie.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 03:27pm PT
Lie No. 1; Hillary is a war criminal
Lie No. 2; before HRC went to sleep she ordered a stand down in Lybia...

The GOP is responsible for cutting the funding for security, period.

Enough funding, better security, no one dies

How can Hillary affect the outcome of a terrorist attack 1000s of miles away
what could Obama or Hillary have done to stop the 4 from being killed?
Nothing.
They needed the security before the attack did they not?
so who's responsible?

I guess Bush is responsible for 911, and the 3000 dead
and the 5000 dead troops, the 100s of thousands of Iraqi's dead
all on Bush's and Powell's shoulders
right?

that's a lot of blood
And they WERE in Charge at the time, so therefore I believe that the blood of those people is on the hands President Bush and Powell and others who were in charge at the time.

and of course Bush is also responsible for the Nation losing 16 trillion in total wealth in the 2008 crash,
how much did you lose?

Now let's compare:
4 dead, no loss of money in your account
100s of thousands dead, and possibly 10s of thousands of your own money lost

can you see why we question your posts??
it's pure hypocrisy, and you based your beliefs on unfactual information
you just parroted BS talking points fabricated by the right wing to shift the blame
WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
No ... it's on your shoulders as you stoopid Americans allowed this criminal enterprise to happen and continue up till today ...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 13, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
Two camps, each of them yelling (not talking) past the other.

Each using entirely loaded language with the conclusions built in.

Each treating the other as the enemy of democracy itself.

Each ignoring the rational foundations of the other's perspectives, preferring to cast the other as fundamentally irrational.

Neither having any moral high-ground.

While our real enemies use partisanship to push us further and further toward their ultimate agenda.

Yayyyy!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 13, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
While our real enemies use partisanship to push us further and further toward their ultimate agenda.

Pretty much... squabbling over the 'best puppet' which matters not...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 13, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
William Tecumseh Sherman said it best:
The carping and bickering of political factions in the nation's capital reminds me of two pelicans quarreling over a dead fish.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 13, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
ok, make your case that Hillary Clinton is a "war criminal"

what crimes was she charged, prosecuted and convicted on?

Oh please, none of these scum ever go to jail much less get charged with anything. The Clintons are surrounded by corpses.

She is a war criminal by zealously supporting the Libyan invasion. Her best buddies are the neocon trash that came before her. She didn't come up with the idea, but supported it, zealously... Oh, and you can easily hear her cackle about Qaddafi being assassinated and dragged through the streets with a simple youtube search, unless that's been erased too.

Trump seems to be falling in line though and willing the beat the same war drums endlessly... Either too dumb or too scared to do anything different.

We truly do live in 1984.




Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:02pm PT
Attorney General Jeff Sessions wants to prosecute medical marijuana

. He’s asking congressional leaders to undo a federal law from 2014 that allows states to legalize it.

Sessions argues he needs to be able to go after medical marijuana because the U.S. is "in the midst of an historic drug epidemic and potentially long-term uptick in violent crime.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
Norton..... before HRC went to sleep she ordered a stand down in Lybia... abandoning Brave Americans to their fate at the hands of armed Muslim killers.

I have nothing more to say about HRC, except that she is a worthless excuse for a person.


Guy, it has been clearly proven that the attack occurred at 4pm Washington time. Are you seriously advocating that is Hillary's bedtime????

Your lack of honesty makes everything that you write suspect of lies and propaganda. She, in fact, was not in charge of the station, it was a CIA "black site".

So if you want to characterize her that way, fine. What kind of scum does that make you?
trailridge127

Trad climber
Loveland, CO
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
Is it only me? But I feel like he is doing a good job. I am proud of our President
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
trump support rally
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
Trump support rallys are the place where even squares can have a ball...They don't take trips on LSD and footballs' still the toughest sport around...
trailridge127

Trad climber
Loveland, CO
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
Yikes, what do you have against handicap folks. That's pretty terrible. Ever think what life would be like if you had no legs. Insensitive as#@&%e
trailridge127

Trad climber
Loveland, CO
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
Do you hate all handicaps or just the Patriotic ones.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
I thought being PC was so yesterday with your pussy grabber and chief

I couldn't even tell he didn't have legs, that wasn't the point you fool

why would I hate handicaps or real patriots?
that makes no sense, it was a photo of trump supporters.

how do you even know he was a victim of a war crime?
don't ya think you over reacted, it was nothing but you made some big deal out of it

maybe you like this one better
trump supporter rally

I just got these off the internet labeled trump support rallies, like them or not.

They certainly were not pro Hillary rallies.
trailridge127

Trad climber
Loveland, CO
Jun 13, 2017 - 08:35pm PT
Doesn't the term snowflake reference Germanys concentration camps,. I am not political correct. I just try to not make fun of folks with no legs or victims of war crimes

Upon further research the term snowflake does not connect with the Nazis. But if you must call me a snowflake. I will agree. I am beautiful and unique. And no amount of hate will tramp out existence to live and embrace freedom. Snowflakes will unite and avalanche on all those who prefer hate over acceptance.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 13, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
I couldn't tell he didn't have legs either... I thought he was The Chief...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 13, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
Actually that guy looks like Cosmiccragman after a window session...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jun 13, 2017 - 09:21pm PT
trailridge127! Re your question:
Is it only me? But I feel like he is doing a good job. I am proud of our President


No. You are not the only remaining Trump supporter. I enjoyed a Mohs skin cancer surgery today, & spent about an hour in a lounge area with other "in-process” patients. The other 3 in the room were in their 70's & were riveted on Fox News coverage of Jeff Session's, in front of the House committee.

I kept my mouth shut, while they showed ignorance of how Congressional committees work, racial bias, hatred of liberals, & then they all agreed that the news was biased against Trump, apparently even the Fox News we were watching.

As an Idaho native & a registered Republican, I’ve always know folks like that represent our “heartland,” but I have little in common with them.

I sigh for Americans that support Trump, & for America under Trump.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 14, 2017 - 06:38am PT
Is it only me? But I feel like he is doing a good job. I am proud of our President.

Which part are you proudest of:

 Committing treason with the Russians?

 Selling the office of the presidency to the Chinese?

 The lying by pretty much every member of his administration?

 The appointment of one unqualified, carpetbagging, swamp-swimming c*#ks@cker after another expressly for the purpose of dismantling the federal government?

 The assault on pretty much every aspect of the lives of the working people who voted for him?

 The new isolation and annihilation of the United States' reputation in the world?

 The shredding of consumer, financial and environmental protections?

The man is the worst form of a joke imaginable only made possible by rubes, saps and morons on the right and even bigger morons among progressives and the young whose delicate sensibilities prevented them from voting.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 14, 2017 - 11:45am PT
Committing treason with the Russians?

Prove it. I mean, you know, proof. Like the level you kept demanding regarding even clearer-cut "smoking guns" in Hillary's possession. You know, like selling off almost 1/4 of US uranium reserves to the Ruskies in exchange for huge payments to her foundation and ridiculously paid speeches. You know, THAT sort of proof that you demanded.

Selling the office of the presidency to the Chinese?

See above. PROVE it.

The lying by pretty much every member of his administration?

Lies? PROVE it. Not partisan interpretations. PROOF.


The appointment of one unqualified, carpetbagging, swamp-swimming c*#ks@cker after another expressly for the purpose of dismantling the federal government?

Now you go even further, stating flat-out intent. But, as we know with Hillary, intent is a very, verrrrrry slippery thing indeed (even when the laws SHE violated nowhere mention intent in the slightest).

So, again, with the standard of proof you always demanded: PROVE it.

The assault on pretty much every aspect of the lives of the working people who voted for him?

What are you talking about? If even half of his proposed policies come to fruition, I and my business (certainly working class!) will be doing MUCH better!

Again, NO partisan interpretations here. PROVE it.

The new isolation and annihilation of the United States' reputation in the world?

Utterly vague partisan interpretations (and even wishful projections). You seem to forget Obama's discovered spying on even allies, along with an ESCALATION in NSA surveillance of even American citizens, not to mention people abroad.

Don't interpret. PROVE it.

The shredding of consumer, financial and environmental protections?

Loaded language designed to "lead the witness" and elicit an emotional response. "Shredding"? "Protections"?

On this one point, I can see some legitimacy to how you could perceive things as you do. But it all comes down to interpretations.

You guys wanted the most ridiculous standard of "proof" regarding ALL of Hillary's OBVIOUS wrong-doing and flat-out law-breaking. You rejoiced when Comey publicly "exonerated" Hillary, although he went FAR beyond his purview by "recommending" against indictments (which is NOT in the purview of law enforcement but resides with the JD itself). And when he talked about intent, you took his OPINION as if a jury had found her not-guilty! But a JURY is the trier of fact, not law enforcement. A JURY should have been instructed that the relevant statutes nowhere mention intent and that to the extent that they wanted to care about intent, THEY should make their own determination of it. You REVELED in Comey then, BECAUSE he intentionally went far beyond his legitimate purview and made public statements he had no business making.

Shortly thereafter, people like you eviscerated Comey over his handling of the DNC hacking investigation, stating flatly that Comey sullied Hillary's chances of winning and that he then exhibited intentionally terrible timing and made public statements far beyond his purview. Many on the left were then calling for his firing, including Maxine Waters, who was later confronted about her inconsistent position regarding his firing.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/05/10/watch-msnbc-host-challenges-maxine-waters-contradictory-statements-on-comey/

So, it would have been great for "President Hillary" (oh, if only) to fire him (in obvious retribution for his handling of that DNC hacking investigation), but it is NOT okay for President Trump to fire him for what the Dems were WIDELY (almost universally) calling his public incompetency and lack of credibility.

And in a report by that paragon of credibility, Salon, it appears that the Russians may have influenced the FBI regarding the Hillary email investigation, thereby producing the VERY public statements you then applauded Comey for making.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/25/comeys-handling-of-clinton-probe-was-influenced-by-a-strange-russian-document/

Flatly, you guys have one standard of "proof" when it comes to your political opponents and a totally other standard of "proof" when it comes to your political allies.

You presently have LESS to go on regarding the Trump/Russia connection than you've had for YEARS regarding the Hillary/Russia connection. You have much less than you've had for YEARS regarding Hillary's OBVIOUS desire to circumvent every records-keeping law that we, well, have a law for. You have LESS regarding his intent to pander to mega-corps, big banking, and Wall Street than we have had for YEARS regarding Hillary's intentions regard same.

In short, when Hillary is attacked for her flagrant wrong-doing, it's a "partisan witch hunt" ENTIRELY lacking in "proof." But when you are deeply, rabidly motivated to attack Trump, you find "proof" everywhere you look.

This DEEPLY and utterly inconsistently partisan thinking is really pretty pathetic when subjected to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jun 14, 2017 - 12:05pm PT


You go off the rails before you even leave the station.



http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 14, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
^^^ And you make my overarching point. You will count as "evidence" and then interpret it as you see fit. Both sides will.

Snopes is not "God," and their interpretation is just one of many also credible interpretations. Partisans will ALWAYS see the "evidence" through their chosen lens.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jun 14, 2017 - 12:37pm PT

Jun 14, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
^^^ And you make my overarching point. You will count as "evidence" and then interpret it as you see fit. Both sides will.

Snopes is not "God," and their interpretation is just one of many also credible interpretations. Partisans will ALWAYS see the "evidence" through their chosen lens.


Let me count the fallacies . . .
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 14, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
This DEEPLY and utterly inconsistently partisan thinking is really pretty pathetic when subjected to even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
That is exactly how I felt about your post

the most partisan BS posted here in days
and you can't even be bothered to accept the truth about the Uranium deal after you proven to be 100% wrong.
They researched it, you did not, you just partisan spun it away like magic.

If even half of his proposed policies come to fruition, I and my business (certainly working class!) will be doing MUCH better!
Prove it
half of his proposed policies are disastrous under any real scrutiny
He has no proposal for higher wages.
His Jobs plans will never bring the jobs back like he promised.
His campaign was one lie after another.



and the ugly PARTISAN lies you repeat ad nausea about Hillary takes away any credibility you have and your posts

Flatly, you guys have one standard of "proof" when it comes to your political opponents and a totally other standard of "proof" when it comes to your political allies.
this is funny, since it's true except the opposite of what you imply

an e-mail server that wasn't a crime vs. Trump Admin. Russian ties that affected the election that is under a real FBI investigation since early 2016
you cannot deny that they met with Russians, there is plenty of proof.
If a Dem had any of this going on, the right would shut down the Gov. and create such hysteria that we would think it's the end of the party.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 14, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
proven to be 100% wrong.

Bwahahahaha

Yeah, right. "Proven" you say.

Okey dokey, then.

They researched it, you did not, you just partisan spun it away like magic.

Uh huh. Except that I'm not partisan. I hate both parties equally, which YOU cannot say.

I'll repeat: Snopes "researched it" and arrived at different conclusions than others that have also "researched it." You act like there are some non-interpreted, God's-eye-view, objective facts here. If there are, NONE of us are in the epistemically-privileged position to know what they are.

all indicators say the economy is in decline

Whaaat???

Talk about inventing "evidence." The stock market is at its highest level EVER.

Of note is that when there was a two-day downward blip after the Brexit, you guys were pointing to that with jubilation, talking about how this PROVED what a bad idea the Brexit was. Of course, there was NO admission of falsified prophecies when the stock market thereafter started its relentless climb upward.

And how about:

http://www.bankrate.com/rates/economic-indicators/reports.aspx

Let's see....

GDP is UP from a year ago.

Housing starts are UP from a year ago.

CPI is within historical norms, which means that inflation is at historical norms. And the President has virtually NOTHING to do with this indicator anyway.

PMI is UP significantly from a year ago, which is one of the primary indicators of manufacturing health.

Retail Sales are UP from a year ago, which is a leading indicator of consumer confidence.

Unemployment is DOWN from a year ago.

Uhhh... WHAT fantasy-land "evidences" of this supposed disaster are you thinking about? The leading indicators are all positive.

And given your use of downward blips in the stock market to "prove" looming disaster as a result of policies you don't like, shouldn't you in all honesty ADMIT that the stock market, now, indicates that the economy LOVES Trump???

and half of his proposed policies are disastrous under any real scrutiny

Bwhahahaha....

He has no proposal for higher wages.

He doesn't NEED one. This is a leftist hobby-horse. It's not some "failing" on his part that he doesn't pander to your world-view. As the free-market economy improves (as it is presently doing), wages naturally increase. Maybe not at the RATE you'd like to see, but it's a difference of OPINION about how fast wages should increase, if at all. That's not FACT; that's OPINION.

His Jobs plans will never bring the jobs back like he promised.

So, you're a prophet now.

Yeah, right! That's some "fact" we can rely upon.

His campaign was one lie after another.

You mean, like Hillary's?

PROOF! I want PROOF, not prophecy and partisan spinning and opinion.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 14, 2017 - 01:36pm PT
Well, yet again, I tire of it and have better things to do.

Please return to your regularly-scheduled, partisan echo-chamber.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 14, 2017 - 01:36pm PT
yawn
no use arguing a partisan that thinks he's above the fray
but uses partisan BS talking points as proof

As the free-market economy improves (as it is presently doing), wages naturally increase.
BS

Trump lied 488 times in his first 100 days, Fact
You think Hillary was just as bad??
you need you head examined
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 14, 2017 - 02:58pm PT

Too many guns on the street. Congressman shot, another three killed
in California. Yup, thanks, NRA. We need more guns.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 14, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
MB1 ..... good- thanks for taking the time.



John M

climber
Jun 14, 2017 - 03:39pm PT

Housing starts are UP from a year ago.

CPI is within historical norms, which means that inflation is at historical norms. And the President has virtually NOTHING to do with this indicator anyway.

PMI is UP significantly from a year ago, which is one of the primary indicators of manufacturing health.

Retail Sales are UP from a year ago, which is a leading indicator of consumer confidence.

Unemployment is DOWN from a year ago.

This could all be easily attributed to the politics put into place during the Obama administration. Since Trump hasn't even been President for 6 months.

How are you any different madbolter? You "proved" to yourself that Hillary is completely guilty of many things. So how is what those who believe Trump is guilty any different then your beliefs and actions? I believe Hillary was corrupt. I also believe Trump is corrupt. Hillary's form of corruption is a slow insidious form of burning. Trumps is a "burn the house down now" with nothing to replace it with form of corruption.

So how are you better then those you decry on this forum?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 14, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
Special Prosecutor Mueller is investigating trump for obstruction of justice.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar&tid=a_breakingnews&utm_term=.55f2f3073463
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 14, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
So now the President is under investigation for felonious behavior.

One wonders if he will fire Mueller?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 14, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
Pizzaman delivers again...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 14, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
poor trump, he didn't get to lift the sanctions on Russia

The Senate voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to allow Congress to block any efforts by the president to scale back sanctions against Russia, and to strengthen those sanctions in retaliation for Moscow’s alleged interference in the 2016 election and its actions in Syria.

The vote of 97 to 2 is a sharp rebuke to President Trump’s posture on Russia and his resistance to the intelligence community’s assessment that the country was behind efforts to influence the election he won.

but of course he's not doing it because of his Russian ties, he just wants to give his good buddy Putin a freebie, maybe he can get some nice golf out of the deal
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 14, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
And apparently, we are going to re-impose the Cuba sanctions, because failing for 40 years was not enough. We need to continue to fail, so that we can be great again.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 14, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
Orange County (Republican) supervisors reject cost-saving vote centers

Let's see---it would allow you to vote at any of the voting centers, instead of only the precinct in which you are registered.

It would allow you to vote for a ten day period, instead of only one day, including weekends.

It would send everyone an absentee ballot that could be mailed back in, or dropped off at the vote center.

It would allow faster counting of votes.

It would save.....

The system was expected to cost up to $14 million, compared to up to $40 million that Kelley estimated is needed to replace the county’s outdated voting machines.

Still, the five Republican board members voted against the measure at their recent meeting without discussing it publicly or explaining the reasoning behind their votes. None of the supervisors responded to requests for comments on Wednesday.

Colorado began implementing vote centers across the state several years ago, and seven other states besides California, including Texas and Arkansas, allow for vote centers to be used before and on election day


Justin Levitt, an expert on voting at Loyola Law School, said the vote center model should increase turnout by making it more convenient for people to vote.

He said there’s no more risk of fraud under the voting center model than under the current model.

The Pew Charitable Trusts found that Colorado counties using vote centers in the 2014 general election spent 40 percent less per vote than under its prior precinct model and the use of provisional ballots declined by nearly 98 percent. The study didn't address fraud.

An Orange County grand jury released a report earlier this year that found “no evidence of widespread or organized voter fraud or vote interference in Orange County election processes.”

The grand jury also concluded that vote centers as contemplated under AB 450 "will promote voter turnout, provide longer timeframes for ballot casting, maintain the security of the voting process, and preserve election integrity in the years ahead."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2017 - 03:35am PT
Get real. The right has conducted a largely successful, fifty-year state-level campaign of gerrymandering and voter suppression that is ethically dishonest, morally reprehensible and utterly un-American in it's intent and scope. That it continues full-steam ahead with a deliberate attack on the Census Bureau ahead of the 2020 census should come as no surprise to anyone.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:07am PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 15, 2017 - 10:37am PT
So how are you better then those you decry on this forum?

I wouldn't say "better." But there are a couple of differences.

First, I really am non-partisan. I voted for Obama the first time. I would probably have voted for Bernie this time, especially given Trump as the alternative. I sometimes vote third-party. I sincerely try to evaluate candidates rather than "right" or "left" or Repub or Dem. Even the Libertarian party doesn't neatly map onto my views, which are closer to "classical liberal" than anything else, and that perspective isn't well represented by any present party. So, I seriously do not have a partisan ax to grind in these discussions. And I am certainly not "right wing" by any stretch of the imagination!

By contrast, the most vociferous contributors to these politard threads are self-admittedly left-leaning and extremely anti-Repub, pro-Dem.

Second, I've read the relevant statutes and understand enterprise-grade computer systems at a level that few on this forum do. My company deals in DoD-grade (and stronger) security every day, and I understand what was going on with Hillary's email server at a pretty deep level. Much about its configuration has become public knowledge, and I understand the underlying issues that would have produced the "symptoms" we know about. So, I'm more educated about this subject than most here. And I can simply compare what is public record regarding Hillary's behaviors and server configuration with the statutes (that nowhere mention intent) and draw my own conclusions.

That said, I have never been rabid about claiming to have PROOF of Hillary's crimes. Regarding the froth we hear in the news, I personally believe that we get so much "pre-digestion" and spin that there is nary a "fact" to be had! Social media is worse. So, I find it virtually impossible to sort out what's "true" from what's "false" or distorted in reports we hear on any subject from any quarter. The notion of "proof" is a flat-out joke.

We live in a society of spin, interpretations, and make-believe passed off as "fact," and even the most careful reporting presents facts that then must be interpreted in a context that basically all of us lack. We are in a deep, deep epistemic hole, and we can have AT MOST varying degrees of "confidence" about what we have concluded from what "facts" we think we have been able to glean.

Regarding Hillary's email server, I am quite confident that she committed multiple crimes. But, that's "confident," not claiming to KNOW or have PROOF. And I would not expect the average person who does not have my particular background to come to the same conclusions I do on the subject.

I don't think that people who reasonably disagree with me on virtually any subject are idiots or irrational or stupid or other such pejorative epithets that are bandied about quite a bit on these politard threads.

So, I'm just advocating scaling back the "proof" rhetoric a large measure and leaving room for reasonable people to reasonably disagree without all the froth. Our enemies are really not each other. We have mega-corps, big-banking, Wall Street, and their army of lobbyists to contend with. And we have more shadowy figures to contend with. None of the parties, and none of the recent candidates have ANY desire to represent us.

I believe Hillary was corrupt. I also believe Trump is corrupt.

Then we're in pretty fundamental agreement!

Hillary's form of corruption is a slow insidious form of burning. Trumps is a "burn the house down now" with nothing to replace it with form of corruption.

Perhaps. I'm not sure by what metrics those sorts of assessments can even be reliably made.

I certainly understand people who thought Hillary was a better choice, all things considered. People should also understand why people thought that Trump was a better choice, all things considered. In fact, we had NO good choice once we reached the point of the general election. Even the Libertarians could only engage in buffoonery. What to do? What to do?
Norton

Social climber
Jun 15, 2017 - 10:45am PT
Norton

Social climber
Jun 15, 2017 - 10:49am PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
Second, I've read the relevant statutes and understand enterprise-grade computer systems at a level that few on this forum do. My company deals in DoD-grade (and stronger) security every day, and I understand what was going on with Hillary's email server at a pretty deep level. Much about its configuration has become public knowledge, and I understand the underlying issues that would have produced the "symptoms" we know about. So, I'm more educated about this subject than most here. And I can simply compare what is public record regarding Hillary's behaviors and server configuration with the statutes (that nowhere mention intent) and draw my own conclusions.


Ok.

Let's grant for a minute, that what you claim is true. Do you seriously advocate that Hillary had computer knowledge equivalent to you? Or will you agree that she, like most people, even most smart people, don't know computers, and rely on computer professionals to set up things they need?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 15, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
Let's grant for a minute, that what you claim is true. Do you seriously advocate that Hillary had computer knowledge equivalent to you? Or will you agree that she, like most people, even most smart people, don't know computers, and rely on computer professionals to set up things they need?

Okay, let's grant that she was dumb as a bag of hammers regarding server security. That would only go toward suggesting "no intent," but the statutes don't mention intent. Furthermore, it is "grossly negligent" to assume responsibility for a system of that importance when you are (supposedly) that utterly clueless. It remained her responsibility to ensure that things were set up correctly, and months of "invalid cert" errors on her site should have tipped off even the "dumbest" that, "Houston, we have a problem."

Comey carefully parsed his verbiage to say, "extremely irresponsible" rather than the equivalent verbiage of one of the statutes in question, which says "gross negligence." That's a distinction without a difference, imo.

Other issues concern her "document shredding" in the form of hiring people to intentionally wipe the contents of the server, her unilateral determination of what was "public" and what was "private" once she had conjoined the public and private, and a litany of other issues.

Finally, her flip, "Wipe? You mean with a cloth?" indicates a level of cluelessness and irresponsibility that is, to me, literally mind-boggling. Of course, there's no legal ramifications of such a statement, but had a jury been in a position to evaluate the "whole package," such a statement would potentially have been quite damaging. Of course, Comey took it upon himself to be the "trier of fact" rather than leaving such determinations to a grand jury, which should have been the determining body of whether or not to being indictments.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
Okay, let's grant that she was dumb as a bag of hammers regarding server security. That would only go toward suggesting "no intent," but the statutes don't mention intent. Furthermore, it is "grossly negligent" to assume responsibility for a system of that importance when you are (supposedly) that utterly clueless. It remained her responsibility to ensure that things were set up correctly, and months of "invalid cert" errors on her site should have tipped off even the "dumbest" that, "Houston, we have a problem."

Ok, so you have beat on your chest about your credentials. So you either have dealt with security issue of import, or you screw around with meaningless stuff.

So you are telling me that the CEO's of the companies for which you consult have your knowledge of computer systems.....or far more likely, if you are actually willing to tell the truth.....they are as dumb as a bag of hammers with regards to server security?

Based upon the recent world-wide attack, it would seem that most computer experts SUCH AS YOURSELF are as dumb as a bag of hammers, because these professionals don't bother to install updates, or ensure other security features that are elementary.

So I don't think your occupation has much to crow about.

Should we hold your knowledge of medicine to be at the level of mine, just because you "should"?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:33pm PT


Wa Post:

**Trump lashes out after reports of obstruction probe;

Pence hires a lawyer**
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
Hold that thought... never mind...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
Special counsel is investigating Jared Kushner’s business dealings

FBI agents and federal prosecutors have also been examining the finances of other Trump associates.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
WaPost Opinion:

Firing Mueller would be an insult to the Founding Fathers

By Kenneth W. Starr
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
Trump said foreign leaders wouldn’t laugh at the U.S. Now they’re laughing at him.

The Australian prime minister’s imitation of “The Donald” is the latest sign that heads of state are not afraid to make jokes at the U.S. president’s expense.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Afghanistan to get 4,000 more U.S. troops
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 15, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
So you are telling me that the CEO's of the companies for which you consult have your knowledge of computer systems.....or far more likely, if you are actually willing to tell the truth.....they are as dumb as a bag of hammers with regards to server security?

Actually, the level of "getting it" that it takes to know that there is a MAJOR problem is pretty low. How about, subject your site to SSLLabs (free!) and see what SSL rating you get? Pretty trivial, and it takes about two minutes.

How about ONCE go to your site and see if your browser is puking because of "invalid cert" errors? How about use your mobile device (she was using five) to connect to your email domain and see if it's puking due to bad SSL/TLS handshaking?

What I'm describing is the OBVIOUS stuff that anybody wanting a site set up should be recognizing and just asking a consultant, "Is it really supposed to be erring out like this?"

And at the level of national security? Uhh, yeah, I believe that even "dumb as a bag of hammers" SHOULD know enough to ask somebody, "Is it supposed to be acting like this?"

But, worse, unlike a university or company that's hiring a firm to create something proprietary for them because they HAVE no good alternative, Hillary HAD a good alternative, provided for her by the taxpayers, staffed by people paid to know how to set things up, and THIS email entity was the ONE she demanded that everybody ELSE in the State Department USE. She had no NEED to set up her own proprietary alternative, unlike your examples. So, she had an even higher bar to get over regarding responsibility and oversight.

In HER case it's not sufficient to say, "Well, she trusted the people she hired." She didn't NEED to put that information at risk, because any breach in State Department servers would NOT be her personal responsibility. Then, the "dumb as a bag of hammers" excuse works, because in no sense is it her responsibility to oversee server security provide FOR her by the government itself.

SHE hired the people. SHE vetted them for competency. SHE didn't get a second opinion or even bother to ask anybody, "Are these cert errors normal? Is my server really engaging in strictly encrypted connections?" And it's on HER for choosing as she did. And all of this begs for an answer to the question: What REALLY motivated her to do all this, WHILE she was herself issuing a memo to the entire State Department under her that said (paraphrased): "Do NOT use your work email address for personal purposes, and use ONLY the SD-provided email address for State correspondence."? THAT is the pressing question, and her "answer" is lame and transparently inadequate.

She supposedly didn't want to carry around multiple devices? And she wanted to deal with Chelsea's wedding arrangements to be on a private server/domain?

Okay, well, she was carrying around up to five devices during that period, always at least three. And it's TRIVIAL to set up multiple email accounts on a single device. MUCH easier than setting up an entire email server!

And she violated one of the most significant aspects of her own memo: Do not co-mingle private and State-related emails. The very co-mingling of her public and private correspondence in one email account was ridiculous, and if she wanted her own private server/domain, she should have used THAT strictly for her private correspondence, while (as she insisted for everybody else at State) using the State email system for State-related correspondence.

NONE of your examples bear any resemblance to the actual events in Hillary's case, and none of them correspond to even the most basic motivations for setting up proprietary secure servers. She HAD a better alternative, but she went out of her way to create a BAD alternative. And for that, "dumb" or whatever, she IS responsible for the outcome.

Based upon the recent world-wide attack, it would seem that most computer experts SUCH AS YOURSELF are as dumb as a bag of hammers, because these professionals don't bother to install updates, or ensure other security features that are elementary.

I think that you're suffering from an over-generalization. It's like, "They all look the same to me."

Just because there are lax or even incompetent systems-security people doesn't mean that most are, and it certainly doesn't mean that ALL are. Actually the vast majority of industry-professionals are very good at what they do, and the fact is that Hillary hired incompetents and then was negligent about follow-through.

So I don't think your occupation has much to crow about.

Ah, the "missing tile" fallacy. If a ceiling tile is missing, you don't notice the hundreds and hundreds of tiles that are right where they're supposed to be. You fixate on the missing one.

When you consider the millions of secure systems, coupled with the countless millions of nefarious port-scans and hack-attempts that are taking place BY THE SECOND, what you really see is a vast, vast ceiling with all the tiles right where they are supposed to be.

The news picks up on every time a tile goes missing and makes a big deal about it. And, yes, some of the systems that get hacked are indeed big deals, so, yes, it's news! But you magnify those quite infrequent events and ignore the literally countless millions of systems that resist continual hacking attempts and remain secure.

When you consider the extent to which the ENTIRE WORLD economy depends upon system security and how infrequently is fails, I'd say that the profession has a LOT to "crow about."

But, you know, interpret the data however it pleases you. The fact remains that Hillary was grossly negligent, oh, excuse me, "extremely irresponsible" in setting up her private server, co-mingling personal and public correspondence, doing so without even basic regard for security, and all WITHOUT A SHRED of legitimate need for doing so.

Should we hold your knowledge of medicine to be at the level of mine, just because you "should"?

Actually, it's a great (for my purposes) analogy. Actually, when it's MY life on the line, I wouldn't take your word for anything! I'll double-check. I'll search the Internet and compare what I'm reading with what second and third opinions say. And if I'm having a drug reaction, I'll ASK, "Hey, is this supposed to be happening?" And I'll get more opinions about even that.

Using your analogy, Hillary took the nation's security to some quack doctor, it broke out in an obvious and painful rash and started breathing heavily with heart palpitations, and she couldn't be bothered to even ASK the quack: "Hey, is this normal?" She didn't do ANY research (at the level I'm talking about, trivially available) to know what would be the right questions to ask. She didn't get a "second opinion" about ANY aspect of the setup. She just took the nation's security to the "quack doctor," subjected it to the "prescribed treatment," and paid NO attention to the alarming symptoms that immediately emerged.

AND, she did all that when the "patient was not even sick!" Totally unmotivated! In violation of what she told the rest of the State Department: "Do NOT go outside our network to non-network doctors!"

So, yeah, I LIKE your analogy because it actually helps show HOW ridiculous her behavior was and what a LOW bar she had to get over to show herself MINIMALLY responsible.

A JURY should have been allowed to be the trier of fact in this case. But that process was circumvented.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 08:24am PT
I thought it was hilarious, and I never heard of The Crucible

maybe not knowing was an advantage
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 08:38am PT
WOT
You do not represent the Middle
So you hate both sides,
Voting for Obama or liking Bernie only applies to your pick for President, I can assume you vote straight Republican down the ticket.

You only seem use right wing talking points when it comes to politics
since I listen to both sides, I know which side says what

You have no idea what the other side says, so you are not centrist, you are a libertarian which are defined as pretty much on the far right wing spectrum


The Whole Bush Admin used the RNC e-mail server, later hacked by the Russians, why not the same Outrage!
Was there Classified posts? Why no investigation?

Her e-mail was not hacked, so saying anything about it is a waste of time no matter what Comey said.
Your extreme hate for Hillary seems to mean one thing to an outsider, the Russian and GOP propaganda worked on you, you are an easy target to influence towards hate and blame.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 16, 2017 - 08:47am PT
propaganda worked on you

Food for thought...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2017 - 08:52am PT
Craig, did you read what MadBolter wrote? He voted Obama first time and would have voted for Bernie. That doesn't make him a straight Republican ticket voter. He specifically said he pays more attention to issues than to candidates. I probably agree with most of your policy preferences but even I have a reflex to dig in against your approach. How would a person raised Republican react? This is where the rubber hits the road in working with people to build a coalition. I see it as more of a "hearts and minds" campaign than a combat campaign.

I perceive that a lack of focus on issues and a focus on party identity and individual candidates is a big part of political problems in USA. It is like an addictive drug to get the easy wins among the less thoughtful voters (or at least the voters who respond impulsively to emotions like fear and hate and anger and frustration). But ultimately, it turns off many people from civic engagement and as a result probably leads to fewer policies that support what a majority of people really want.

I don't blame politicians for using character attacks and identity shaming. I blame our society for responding to them in favor of the attackers. Changing that is a person by person campaign to help them think for themselves and to rise above the political identity they were born with to decide what will make their own life better.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 09:01am PT
A lot right wingers voted for Obama
being the options provided
a lot of right wingers liked Bernie

Does he vote for Republicans down ticket?
Yes, he agrees with their issues and hates Dems issues like the safety net and healthcare
he is not a Centrist

And if you listen to both sides like I do, you hear where he gets his talking points

I just said the same thing over again

Do you agree with his talking points,
lets debate them,
not my opinion of MB, which is poor.
I get a little nauseated while reading his posts because of the partisan spin he exudes.
and he is one of the few defenders of Trump, how many centrists can pull off that hat trick
It all comes down to being influenced by misinformation and propaganda, he is a poster child of the Right. Every post of his is filled with it.

Climate change denier, evolution denier, thinks we should rid ourselves of Environmental regulations, they would provide jobs, tax cuts for the rich will provide jobs, a free market will provide jobs!!!
all big money propaganda...


ALL DEMS vote on issues, just look at the issues that the Republicans are working on, the Republicans lie about what they will push through Congress, so you have to look at what they do, not what they say.

Who doesn't vote on issues?
I vote to stop the Republican issues from becoming law, because they only help the rich and lobbyists and screw the middle class

What Republican issue is a good idea?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 16, 2017 - 09:18am PT
Actually, the level of "getting it" that it takes to know that there is a MAJOR problem is pretty low. How about, subject your site to SSLLabs (free!) and see what SSL rating you get? Pretty trivial, and it takes about two minutes.

How about ONCE go to your site and see if your browser is puking because of "invalid cert" errors? How about use your mobile device (she was using five) to connect to your email domain and see if it's puking due to bad SSL/TLS handshaking?

What I'm describing is the OBVIOUS stuff that anybody wanting a site set up should be recognizing and just asking a consultant, "Is it really supposed to be erring out like this?"

Never heard of a SSLLabs. Never used it.

Did you go to Hillary's site, and find it puking? You'd make a great expert witness----testifying as to what it did, without every having examined it. Was it erring out the way you describe.

Because when other experts get on that stand, and state definitively that it was not, YOU become the political hack, testifying to things that you don't know about.

<Should we hold your knowledge of medicine to be at the level of mine, just because you "should"?>

Actually, it's a great (for my purposes) analogy. Actually, when it's MY life on the line, I wouldn't take your word for anything! I'll double-check. I'll search the Internet and compare what I'm reading with what second and third opinions say. And if I'm having a drug reaction, I'll ASK, "Hey, is this supposed to be happening?" And I'll get more opinions about even that.

GREAT! You've now made it impossible to pursue a medical malpractice case, no matter what some crazy doc does, because you have established a REQUIREMENT that a patient MUST do serious due diligence---to the level of going to medical school and taking a residency in a medical specialty---and understanding all of that information, and if they don't, whatever happens is THEIR FAULT.

I appreciate that you got your expertise in a weekend of study, and you think that ALL people who hire folks like you should have taken that weekend, also. But you conveniently neglected to respond to how computer savvy your CEO's actually are......

When the computers go down, do the call the CEO's to straighten it out, or do they call YOU?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 16, 2017 - 10:29am PT
CF, I very rarely say this, but you're an idiot.

WOT

Fck you. A systematic response can't be done in five sentences (the max your attention span can apparently handle).

You do not represent the Middle

I don't attempt to represent anybody. Idiots like you want to box and package individuals, because that way you can be sweepingly dismissive. Sadly for your narrow mind, I don't fit your boxes.

So you hate both sides,

As I've repeatedly said. Both side hate US. Both sides have ZERO interest in OUR best interest. Both sides are playing us. You happen to be a true-believer in one of those sides. So much the worse for you.

Voting for Obama or liking Bernie only applies to your pick for President, I can assume you vote straight Republican down the ticket.

Did I mention that you're an idiot? Let me be sure to express that point, so that it doesn't get lost: You're an idiot.

Your endless assumptions about my perspectives (and your perpetual misquotes of me) indicate that, well, you're an idiot.

For the record, I do not "vote straight down the Republican ticket" for Congress or even local elections. I've said, and I mean, that I care about CANDIDATES rather than parties. And I've often voted Democratic when I felt that the CANDIDATE was best.

You only seem use right wing talking points when it comes to politics since I listen to both sides, I know which side says what

Frankly, it's obvious from your relentless posting on these politard threads (NOBODY owns them like you do!), that you're an idiot who does NOT know which side says what.

You're a typical "box and package" thinker whose ONLY agenda is to pick out some "point" made by one of your "opponents" that will neatly fit into your chosen box, so that you can PUT your "opponent" there and then reject EVERYTHING thereafter said but that person. Your goal is NOT truth-seeking but "winning," and you employ every tactic you can to be sweepingly dismissive of anybody who doesn't agree with you.

You have no idea what the other side says, so you are not centrist,

This is a classic example of my point. You have one goal: Box and package somebody, so that you can dismiss them.

You are not intellectually honest, and after this post I'm done with you. You'll post in response, and you'll think that you "won" as a result. I couldn't give a rat's hairy left testical about it. My sole goal in this post is to explain to you why at this point I entirely disdain you and will have nothing more to do with you.

you are a libertarian which are defined as pretty much on the far right wing spectrum

I think I mentioned before, but just to be sure: You're an idiot. Or you're the sickest troll to ever hit the Taco Stand.

There are SO many points of the Libertarian platform that are NOT "right wing." LOL... wow, are you clueless!

And, I've repeatedly said that the Libertarian party does not neatly map onto my perspectives, which are closest to "classical liberal." Here's just a subset of my views, and anybody can see that in-toto they are neither the "Libertarian" nor "Republican" perspective:

* Global warming is real, and the United States should devote its amazing resources to getting us OFF of fossil fuels within a decade. This is doable if we put our collective mind to it, and there is NO greater national security issue than to get OFF of dependency on fossil fuels.

* The military-industrial complex is another HUGE threat to national security. Our being "policeman to the world" must STOP. We must withdraw from these endless "police actions" and mini-wars of conquest. We must get OUT of the Middle East. Israel can stand or fall as it will, but without a dependency on Middle Eastern oil, we have NO interest in that region and should QUIT manipulating it.

* Related to the above, we should SLASH military spending by at least half. We do not NEED 30+ carrier groups! We do not need the vast expenditure of resources, and that VAST amount of money could instead quickly pay off our present national debt, return us to fiscal solvency, and engage in much-needed development projects AT HOME!

* We should ELIMINATE corporate welfare, farm subsidies, and virtually all individual welfare. Entities that can't make it, well, sorry but "we the people" as a NATION have NO duty to prop you up at the NATIONAL level. I'm ALL FOR state programs of various forms of assistance. But NATIONALLY I want the federal government OUT of every detail of our lives, and I'm sick and tired of the FEDERAL government stealing my money to redistribute it to the "needy" at the level of corporations, farms, manufacturing, the military, and individuals. The FEDERAL government was granted a VERY NARROW range of powers by the constitution, and it has FAR, FAR exceeded those powers in the years since. It's time to TAKE BACK our control over IT, instead of it having endless and fine-grained control over US.

* Taxation should be entirely and completely revamped. There are MANY viable approaches, but the present approach is NOT viable. Unless you only file the 1040EZ, you ARE in violation of the law! I don't care if you hire a CPA every year (as I do). The tax code is ABSURD, and it is impossible for any human being (regardless of training or certification) to get a moderately complicated tax return entirely into compliance with every possible permutation of the tens of thousands of pages of tax law. This is an extreme burden on the people (and companies) of the United States, and it MUST be simplified or flat-out converted to some other form of taxation.

* The "fed" should be eliminated and OUR money returned directly to our control via the actual Treasury Department. At present "the fed" is NEITHER federal nor a reserve. It's a mega-bank that manipulates our money, loans it back to us at interest (the rates of which IT manipulates), while it manipulates PAPER that has no actual value. The levels of manipulation are EPIC, and our money at present HAS no actual intrinsic value. The intrinsic value of money MUST be restored, and that is not possible while we tolerate "the fed" owning our money instead of US.

I could go on and on, but anybody can already see that I am FAR from a "right winger," and I am also FAR from a "liberal." I don't care what of my points you agree with or disagree with; that's irrelevant. My point is that I do not neatly fit into ANY of your STUPID boxes. So, quit presuming you understand my perspectives and can therefore presume to "quote" me.

CF, my final statement to you: You're an idiot, not worth one more shred of effort on my part.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 16, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Never heard of a SSLLabs. Never used it.

You're not in the industry at this sort of level, so no surprise. However, most of the people I deal with HAVE, and they check their own sites on it.

You should try it, btw. It's entertaining to enter the URLs of well-known sites you might frequent every day and see what grade they get. For about a YEAR after it went live, healthcare.gov was getting a C-, with bad certs and no actual functioning encryption. It was also vulnerable to some well-known exploits, such as Poodle. Check some sites out; pretty entertaining!

Did you go to Hillary's site, and find it puking? You'd make a great expert witness----testifying as to what it did, without every having examined it. Was it erring out the way you describe.

Actually, yes. Shortly after she became SecState the IT community quickly discovered her domain, and the site was still cert-puking. Somewhere I have a screen-shot, but I'm not finding it quickly. I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile, here's a reputable article about it:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2895832/hillary-clintons-email-system-was-insecure-for-two-months.html

Because when other experts get on that stand, and state definitively that it was not, YOU become the political hack, testifying to things that you don't know about.

I don't know what "experts" you're referring to, but if they were testifying as you say, they LIED. PC World is spot-on regarding the timing of the cert-issue, and in FACT her site wasn't USING that issued cert for MONTHS even after the cert was issued.

GREAT! You've now made it impossible to pursue a medical malpractice case, no matter what some crazy doc does, because you have established a REQUIREMENT that a patient MUST do serious due diligence---to the level of going to medical school and taking a residency in a medical specialty---and understanding all of that information, and if they don't, whatever happens is THEIR FAULT.

That's just ridiculous!

What I SAID is that I personally CARE about my own life and health enough that I WOULD (not that everybody SHOULD) do some due-diligence regarding it.

YOUR claim is that Hillary COULD ONLY appeal to "experts," and that she COULD NOT be expected to do ANY due diligence on the subject.

MY response is that such a claim is false. The level of due diligence expected was MINIMAL. Comparing it to "going to the doctor" is quite ridiculous, but if you're going to go there, MY point is that the bar is quite low to do SOME due diligence.

Had Hillary done ANY, even minimal due diligence (which we SHOULD expect, if she's going to put national security on a home-grown server!), she would NOT have had the problems she had.

You've gone off the rails in your efforts to make the due-diligence bar seem impossibly high. It was NOT. And she DID have a personal responsibility at a level that she would not have had if she would have just used the email system provided to her by the US government, the same system that she DEMANDED that all her underlings use.

I appreciate that you got your expertise in a weekend of study,

Ah, so now you're becoming an idiot like CF.

Statements like that are literally just absurd and are transparent ad hominem attacks.

I and my company have FAR more than a "weekend's" expertise, I assure you.

and you think that ALL people who hire folks like you should have taken that weekend, also.

More ridiculous assumptions.

You know, the liberal tactics on this site have become so yawningly predictable: Attack, attack, attack. Ad hominem, ad hominen, ad hominem. Ridiculous assumptions en mass.

If you would back up just a bit, take a deep breath, and acknowledge that people just MIGHT actually know what they are talking about, even when they disagree with you, you just MIGHT be able to broaden your perspective a bit.

You clearly have NO idea how the sorts of relationships I'm describing actually work. So, why not ask QUESTIONS about it rather than ATTACK with lame presumptions?

In FACT, the sorts of people that engage with people like me DO have their own people on staff that DO have a "high" level of expertise, and they DO vet the work!

The FACT is that Hillary took the MOST superficial possible approach to her server set-up. She did NOT engage in even the most basic due diligence about it. And her server WAS insecure for many months after she had it set up. She IS responsible for that fact. And she CANNOT just side-step the issue by appealing to arguments like yours that "the bar was too high for her to be expected to know what she 'should' have known."

If the bar was too high, then she should not have done it!

But you conveniently neglected to respond to how computer savvy your CEO's actually are......

I haven't neglected it. I'm not going to give you a client list! But I've repeatedly explained in generalities, as I did just above.

There simply was NO excuse for the lame approach Hillary took to her server-setup, and it WAS utterly insecure for months.

People claim that "it was not hacked," but that's making a negative-existential claim. You cannot know it wasn't hacked. Even a minimally-savvy hacker knows how to cover his tracks, such that you would not know that your system HAD been compromised.

The very fact that the system WAS as insecure as it was for many months is itself a problem.

When the computers go down, do the call the CEO's to straighten it out, or do they call YOU?

Look, this isn't hard to understand. You are making it appear so complicated, so that you can make it seem like Hillary could not be expected to do some minimal due diligence.

CEOs have people on staff that will double-check things. Hillary hired ONE firm to set things up. Since she had no such staff to do double-checking, she SHOULD have (at a minimum) gotten second and third opinions about security. After all, we're talking NATIONAL SECURITY here.

But the overarching point here is that: SHE HAD NO GOOD REASON for doing all of this! There was NO reasonable motivation for putting national security at risk as she did. Her "explanations" are transparently lame. And a JURY should have been given the opportunity to be the trier of fact regarding the whole picture.

I can't say more than this about the issue. You will move Heaven and Earth to try to find Hillary some EXCUSES for her behavior. But I personally don't buy them.

You disagree. Fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

But I also am. And I have very good reasons to believe that Hillary very intentionally put national security at risk in order to be able to circumvent records-keeping laws.

Bottom line is that a JURY should have decided this, NOT Comey on his own.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 11:57am PT
No, you're the idiot!!!!
and your WOT was nauseating

I guess I did something right, since you are in quite a tissy
Didn't you say something to this effect about me?

so angry and whack, that's what I read

I agree with some of your issues, they are on the liberal side,
you were the one that said Free Markets create jobs, I didn't see you try and justify that position, demand creates jobs, not Free Markets controlled by major corporations, which could be discussed further.

I've said, and I mean, that I care about CANDIDATES rather than parties. And I've often voted Democratic when I felt that the CANDIDATE was best.
so you don't vote on issues, you vote for the which candidate received the least ugly smear campaign I guess

You voted for Trump!
You defended Trump, you think is policies would help
and your defense was the issues I posted on

I noticed no anti-denial of evolution, so you do still deny major evolution has taken place
God created everything, man and dinosaurs lived side by side? right?

and us respectable people try not to insult each other with words like you're an idiot while posting, it's the Christian thing to do.
So you lost the argument by your tone alone.

My post had zero blatant insults towards you, just my opinions of what I thought about you, some may have been wrong, I'm sorry and apologize for being wrong about those items
I only use the idiot in the first sentence as sarcasm, since you called me an idiot about 20 times.

and why is it that the most partisan right wingers find your posts reliable? because of the right wing talking points used, that's why.

I pray you are done with me!
dirtbag

climber
Jun 16, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
What good reason did Trump have to blab classified intelligence to Russian officials? Best case scenario: stupidity and impulsiveness. We're so screwed.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 16, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
That info was about laptop bombs developed by Isis being a risk to aircraft security.

In 2015 Metro jet 9268 was a Russian plane taken down by an Isis bomb killing 272 people..mostly tourists

That's a pretty good reason to share info
dirtbag

climber
Jun 16, 2017 - 01:02pm PT
Except that our ally (Israel--not Russia) asked us to keep it on the down low for fear that Iran would exploit the info.

Schmucks who blab tend to get cut off. Other allies took notice.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 16, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
What good reason did Trump have to blab classified intelligence to Russian officials? Best case scenario: stupidity and impulsiveness. We're so screwed.

You have no idea what Trump 'blabbed' to the Russians.

We're not screwed. You are screwed b/c you are dirtbag.

You consistently project your personal insecurities and limitations into political whack fantasies

A paranoid l00n feeding off your MSM masters like the parasite that you are.

^^^^
BTW...I thought Richard's last WOT was well stated. Way too rational and measured for the majority here. Bound to pop what few remaining brain cells Craig has left. I'd bet he'll make the nightly news within the next year or two.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 16, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
Oh, ok.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
And I have very good reasons to believe that Hillary very intentionally put national security at risk in order to be able to circumvent records-keeping laws.

put national security at risk
Such complete BS

Hillary didn't have anything on her server that was classified
They investigated, no classified info.
so even if was hacked, it wouldn't matter
There was No Security risk...
especially one that put the Nation at risk

so all the reactionary BS about the server is just a paranoid partisan smear
it's quite astounding the visceral hate you PROJECT

Colin Powell said she should use a private e-mail, like he did.
It was an option that she decided would be OK, and it was OK.

How is the Trump doing on record keeping laws?
They are using all kinds of private services that are at risk, should we lock em up?
The President uses a private twitter account, easily hackable, and is an actual National security risk.
Where is the outrage?

are the any laws the Trump Admin aren't trying to circumvent?
They seem lawless to me in comparison.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 16, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
How The Religious Right Pioneered Propaganda As News

Before Fox News, there was Pat Robertson’s ‘700 Club,’ where I was an executive producer.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-the-religious-right-pioneered-propaganda-as-news_us_5943e1d6e4b01eab7a2d130a?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

William F. Buckley was among the first to give the word “liberal” a pejorative interpretation, but it was the wordsmith William Safire writing for Spiro Agnew who in 1969 elevated it to a political talking point in his famous speech that opened the war against the press during Richard Nixon’s secret battles in Vietnam. The word became the central weapon in a strategy that involved attacking the messenger instead of changing the message.

That political strategy has been so effective to date that it has given birth to the idea that mainstream news is actually “fake news” and not to be believed in the administration of President Donald Trump. The number of people who now believe this falsehood is staggering, and it poses a real threat to our democracy.

At The 700 Club, we exploited attacking the press in order to insert ourselves to the right of everybody else in presenting a Biblical, a.k.a. Republican perspective on current events. We offered a daily news program that expressed Republican party talking points that we marketed as a Christian worldview. Thus began the shifting of evangelicals to the GOP and the shifting of the GOP to the right. We served as the intellectual wing of the Moral Majority, although there was no theological love lost between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

So let’s look at these events closely, because it has a direct bearing on the conflict today. Let me be very clear: the right-wing “news” that we created was a political response to the progressive nature of news and information. It’s important to understand this, because “right-wing news” is oxymoronic. There is no such thing, because the right represents olds, not news. By definition, news is new, and new is progressive. That conservatives view this as a bias is fine, but elevating that to some evil command-and-control mechanism for political liberals is a false narrative. Rush Limbaugh has made a living off of this phony hegemony, as well as Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, and whole host of mostly broadcasting personalities. Why? Because it sells and has been selling for almost 50 years.

But it’s entirely false, for the press is not the purveyor of fake news. That title belongs with those who create stories for political gain and clickthroughs. It may be politically expedient to label the mainstream as fake, but in order to do so, one’s source must be propaganda and nothing else.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 16, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
"Never heard of a SSLLabs. Never used it."

You're not in the industry at this sort of level, so no surprise. However, most of the people I deal with HAVE, and they check their own sites on it


WHAT industry would that be?

Would that be the professional computer industry?

I agree, I am not in that industry, at that level.

But apparently you have evidence that Hillary WAS an expert in computers, and so was negligent....although she did nothing that the previous SOS's, who were Repubs didn't do. But you don't complain about Rice and Powell.

You also don't seem to acknowledge that had she done what you suggest, her server would have been picked clean by Ed Snowden. As it was, nothing has been leaked from her server. Nothing.

YOU accessed her server, you admit. And yet you have nothing. Sure post up an error message (of course, you had no business on her server, Mr. Hacker), but we all know that creating a fake message is simple. Even you can do it.

Sure I stipulate that you didn't get your skills in a weekend, but I also advocate that the average executive doesn't have your skills, either. I'll bet Rex Tillerson doesn't have them, either. Neither does Hillary.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 16, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
But apparently you have evidence that Hillary WAS an expert in computers, and so was negligent.... Sure I stipulate that you didn't get your skills in a weekend, but I also advocate that the average executive doesn't have your skills, either. I'll bet Rex Tillerson doesn't have them, either. Neither does Hillary

You're missing the point, which is that people putting up "home-grown" servers with secure info on them either have the skills, have the staff with the skills, or hire people with the skills. And the more important the info is, the more of an army of skilled people are brought to bear to protect it.

The government servers used by the State Department have an army of people, and that army is responsible for security. If it fails, then that army failed.

When Hillary takes it upon HERSELF to put up a home-grown server that will house national-security info, SHE is responsible to ensure that a comparable army is reviewing the security of that server. She created a "replacement" for the system already provided for her by the US government, so SHE then took upon HERSELF the responsibility to ensure that the security standards of that server were at least as good.

She didn't. Not on any level.

although she did nothing that the previous SOS's, who were Repubs didn't do. But you don't complain about Rice and Powell.

This is an old saw. It's as false now as it was when the first liberal comparison was made. There is no good comparison for a host of reasons, among them:

* Rice/Powell did not put up their own SERVER. They used an external ACCOUNT provided by MAJOR providers that themselves carefully monitor security, in Powell's case AOL.

* Rice did no government emailing via those accounts, and Powell did very little. See this article from left-leaning Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/07/08/democrats-still-misleading-claim-that-clinton-turned-over-more-emails-than-any-of-her-predecessors/?utm_term=.9ead0a8a7b6b

* Between the time that Powell used an external ACCOUNT and Hillary set up her own full-blown server, LOTS changed in terms of the State Department's own internal policies regarding SD records-keeping, use of external accounts, and so on. What was acceptable for Powell according to SD policies had changed to unacceptable the time of Hillary's tenure, a fact that SHE HERSELF referenced in a SD-wide memo. The above article goes into this fact.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/state-department-email-rule-hillary-clinton-115804

* Powell used his account for a relatively small number of SD emails, not tens and tens of thousands like Hillary. And TWO of Powell's were retroactively classified, compared to over 1600 of Hillary's, of which dozens were top-secret at the time she received them, and many were marked "C" for "Classified" at the time she received them.

There are other significant differences, but even the above is enough to make the comparison obviously ridiculous. Hillary was shunting tens of thousands of emails through her own personal server, many, many of which were classified at the time and over 1600 retroactively classified. And all of this long after Powell, which means long after the SD itself revamped its policies regarding acceptable email-use. So, even beyond the legal ramifications, Hillary was in flagrant violation of stated SD policies, policies she KNEW because she referenced them in her memo to other SD staffers.

You also don't seem to acknowledge that had she done what you suggest, her server would have been picked clean by Ed Snowden.

Perhaps. But the POINT is that it would then not have been HER negligence and irresponsibility that would have produced the insecurity. Since she DID take that upon herself, then it IS a very valid point (not just some "right wing talking point") to say that she was "extremely irresponsible" in her determination to violate SD directives (and legal statutes) in her behaviors.

As it was, nothing has been leaked from her server. Nothing.

It's literally outlandish for you to make this assertion. You are making a sweeping negative-existential claim that you cannot IN PRINCIPLE have any way to back up.

You might say, "We have no evidence of a leak or successful hack," and I would agree with that statement. But that much weaker claim doesn't have the force you want it to have, which is why you don't make it.

In FACT, her server could well have been hacked, and the overarching POINT is that it COULD have been, which she and she alone would be responsible for. Her behavior was reckless and irresponsible in the extreme, and IF she dodged a bullet and was not hacked, she was LUCKY not "good" in how she handled things.

YOU accessed her server, you admit. And yet you have nothing.

Ridiculous.

Going to the home page and seeing that it was vulnerable is NOT the same thing as running SSLLabs on it to see what specific vulnerabilities might be employed to hack it, and then HACKING it!

So, your use of the term "accessed" in the way you mean it is, flatly, ridiculous.

Sure post up an error message (of course, you had no business on her server, Mr. Hacker), but we all know that creating a fake message is simple. Even you can do it.

That statement is literally too ridiculous to warrant a serious reply.

Its value, however, is in showing reasonable people just how low the left will go to defend the indefensible.

Sure I stipulate that you didn't get your skills in a weekend, but I also advocate that the average executive doesn't have your skills, either. I'll bet Rex Tillerson doesn't have them, either. Neither does Hillary.

Asked and answered. If Hillary knew she didn't have the requisite skills, then she needed to hire an ARMY of people to provide those skills, which is what the SD did on her behalf when it handed her a secured account and TOLD HER TO USE IT.

Her behavior was outrageous, irresponsible, reckless, and negligent. She was either amazingly stupid or intentionally circumventing records-keeping laws. And her trite responses like, "Wipe? Like with a cloth?" reveal an "above the law" mentality that is flagrantly outrageous or stupid. Either way, there is no defending the indefensible.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 17, 2017 - 09:58am PT
Thought I would put this out here for you anti government types.
It is the knowledge that all men have weaknesses and that many have vices that makes government necessary.
-James Monroe
Norton

Social climber
Jun 17, 2017 - 10:32am PT


A Mount Everest of "Trite", but keep on inventing False Equivalences Honey Boo Boo
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 10:47am PT

When Hillary takes it upon HERSELF to put up a home-grown server that will house national-security info, SHE is responsible to ensure that a comparable army is reviewing the security of that server. She created a "replacement" for the system already provided for her by the US government, so SHE then took upon HERSELF the responsibility to ensure that the security standards of that server were at least as good.

Well, here your attack breaks down. The FBI examined her server, and clearly and convincingly concluded that it was not created to house national-security information. In fact, the few classified things which were contained within, were things SENT to her, and not clearly marked as classified. You mention things that were RETROACTIVELY classified....which means that they were NOT classified at the time they were received by her.

Obviously, we can't read these things, to know the seriousness...but the FBI did, and didn't seem worried. Note that Colin Powell also had some things retroactively classified, which he disputed as irrational....email communications about scheduling a lunch meeting with a subordinate, as I recall, which he found befuddling.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 10:48am PT
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights to investigate rights enforcement under Trump

The majority of the commission expressed “grave concerns” about the Trump administration's proposal to cut spending and staffing on civil rights efforts at multiple agencies.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 10:58am PT
You're missing the point, which is that people putting up "home-grown" servers with secure info on them either have the skills, have the staff with the skills, or hire people with the skills. And the more important the info is, the more of an army of skilled people are brought to bear to protect it.

The government servers used by the State Department have an army of people, and that army is responsible for security. If it fails, then that army failed.

Oh, contraire! Clearly, she hired people with the skills. I don't know who they were, but they'd be people like YOU. So now, you are attacking yourself!!

You repeatedly attack whoever these people were, but you don't hold them accountable. Was their advice ignored by Clinton? Do you know who they were? Do you know if they were an army, or an army of one? Name names!

Clearly, you don't have a clue about security. You don't bring an army of people to deal with secure information. You compartmentalize to the smallest number of people possible, to avoid a Chelsea Manning-type situation (BTW, Manning would be YOU). You use the best experts possible, and as few as possible. What is your security clearance with the gov't?

I find it amusing that you cite AOL as a secure system for classified information.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 11:03am PT
"As it was, nothing has been leaked from her server. Nothing."

It's literally outlandish for you to make this assertion. You are making a sweeping negative-existential claim that you cannot IN PRINCIPLE have any way to back up.

You might say, "We have no evidence of a leak or successful hack," and I would agree with that statement. But that much weaker claim doesn't have the force you want it to have, which is why you don't make it.

In FACT, her server could well have been hacked, and the overarching POINT is that it COULD have been, which she and she alone would be responsible for. Her behavior was reckless and irresponsible in the extreme, and IF she dodged a bullet and was not hacked, she was LUCKY not "good" in how she handled things.

So if the NSA computer is hacked, who alone is responsible? If you set up a system, and it is hacked, it the person who hired you responsible, alone and solely? You seem not to want to take responsibility for your actions. When you fail (which you define as any system that has a POTENTIAL for failure---you can't point to any situation of ACTUAL failure, only POTENTIAL failure), you want to push responsibility for your failure upon your boss, claiming that they should have checked the code you were responsible for writing, as if any CEO does that.

Ok, you know what your skills are worth!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 17, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
we can't read these things, to know the seriousness...but the FBI did, and didn't seem worried

Your diversionary tactics, ad hominem attacks, and re-interpreting of results have become tiresome. No point in arguing with you. Again, your purpose in this from my perspective has been that rational people now have a better insight into how LOW libs will go to defend the indefensible.

The FBI "didn't seem worried"? Really? Haha. Yeah, that's why Comey (to libs' outrage) stated that Hillary had been "extremely irresponsible" (and more). And you can recast what was found on her server all you want, but your reinventions don't change the facts.

The biggest problem libs still defending Hillary have is that they seemingly cannot grasp WHAT a boneheaded move it was for them to back her (and now keep defending the indefensible). Had the Dems put up ANY other candidate, in the face of TRUMP as the opposition, the Dems would have handily won, as predicted.

But you hitched your cart to the Hillabeast, and too many rational people just couldn't go there. You can reinvent reality to claim that half the nation is a bunch of racist rednecks, and I laugh and say, "Go for it!"

You learn nothing, so you're doomed to repeat your mistakes. Excellent! That keeps libs out of power for awhile longer. Meanwhile, hopefully Trump can further load the court, which is where the real trends are made anyway.

Keep echoing. It makes me soooo happy to see you refuse to learn anything! Seriously. Please, please stay in your clueless fantasy-land.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 17, 2017 - 02:00pm PT

Rogue POTUS Staff‏ @RoguePOTUSStaff 21h21 hours ago

After multiple temper tantrums today POTUS is.....still acting like a child.



from the secret and secured twitter account of one of Pres Trump's WH Staffers
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 17, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
I just finished my orientation to participate in the bighorn survey in Anza Borrego later this month. The biggest issue the bighorns are facing is disease passed from domestic sheep and goats. The scientists are really concerned about the Trump administration ignoring this and opening up national monuments and parks to more grazing and ignoring the science around disease transmission to native species, in favor of economic gains. A very dangerous mind set.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 17, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
The scientists are really concerned about the Trump administration ignoring this and opening up national monuments and parks to more grazing and ignoring the science around disease transmission to native species, in favor of economic gains. A very dangerous mind set.

you can go on and on about all of the "executive orders" and incompetent cabinet level appointments

you can point to a mountain of outright lies, business bankruptcies, thousands of lawsuits from contractors he did not pay

and all of that means nothing compared to Hillary Clinton using a home email server instead of the government server to transact State Department communication with

can you say False Equivalence when comparing "judgment".....the arrogant and ignorant's can't

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
You learn nothing, so you're doomed to repeat your mistakes. Excellent! That keeps libs out of power for awhile longer. Meanwhile, hopefully Trump can further load the court, which is where the real trends are made anyway.

Keep echoing. It makes me soooo happy to see you refuse to learn anything! Seriously. Please, please stay in your clueless fantasy-land.

so once again, I've gotten you to reveal yourself. You claim not to be partisan, then advocate for long-term packing of the court with far-right demagogues. Madbolter revealed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 17, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
Turmoil compounds White House’s struggles to fill out top ranks of government

Republicans say they are turning down job offers to work for a chief executive whose volatile temperament makes them nervous, and they’re asking head-hunters if their reputations could suffer permanent damage. The White House disputed the notion that the administration has a hiring problem.

why don't you go to work for him, Mad? You will only end up spending your life savings on paying off your lawyers, who are trying to protect you from prison.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 17, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
Norton says:

from the secret and secured twitter account of one of Pres Trump's WH Staffers

You've verified w/o dispute that this is in fact a WH staffer? How could YOU of all people know this?

Secret and secured?

You are such a fool....haha LoL
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 18, 2017 - 03:25am PT
Ah, the poor left-wingers think only in binary terms. There are no other alternatives for them than left vs. right, and they are so partisan that if they're losing (like at present), then necessarily the right-wing must be winning. And that's necessarily badddddd.

It's factious thinking that keeps the two sick parties in power. Zero sum game.

And the decades of ever-increasingly sick candidates foisted off on us by the two parties show the extent to which this binary thinking has screwed us all.

This election was the sickest yet: Trump vs. Clinton, both horrible options.

But this thread is a left-wing whiner thread, so what you must hate the most is that even Trump beat your gal. Even TRUMP!

Now that's pretty pathetic. Hopefully you can work together to put up a non-criminal next time. That will help. Having one of the two major candidates not be a criminal makes choosing easier.

Gorsuch is an originalist, not a right-winger nor a left-winger. I hope for more like him on the court, for that reason alone. Such would move the court back toward original intent rather than partisan legislation from the bench. Then, constitutional changes could legitimately take place via proper channels (which present a very high bar) rather than via mere SCOTUS rulings that are uncoupled from what the constitution meant when written.

It seems to me that it's best to not think in strictly binary terms about politics, which thinking must be reserved for only the narrow-minded.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 18, 2017 - 04:26am PT
...originalist...

An originalist is by definition an activist because they are forced to interpret original intent onto a world very different from the one that existed at the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were conceived. It's futile hurling at it's best. And to say an originalist doesn't interpret with either right or left leanings is either deliberately misleading, wishful thinking, or simply naive in the extreme.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 18, 2017 - 08:55am PT


reeled you in hook line and sinker

easy enough to do when they are not only ignorant and arrogant but gullible and naive



Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 18, 2017 - 10:06am PT
*Proof of colususion / Complicity with A foreign power attack on the United States Democracy*

1) Accepting money for . .n0t just a real estate deal, clearly
2) Hiring M Flynn, after repeated warnings of his un-clean hands.
3) beyond the obvious, of the players in the inner circles lying on the extent of contacts,
They all are guilty for having not disclosed, in their security vetting.
4) a constellation of facts showing that Putin is asking for and being given, what ever he wants;
See meeting with heads of Russians with only Russian media allowed into the meeting


I can go on but when faced with what has occurred compared to a blow job from an intern , or any of the Wich-Hunt that was ' White Water' it really isn't needed
I am more scared of the Nazi pence than. Small di. . . Er? Handz Puusy Grabber & Thief.
WBraun

climber
Jun 18, 2017 - 10:18am PT
You American hypocrites.

You've been attacking so many countries for over 50 years now and overthrowing govt's, assassinating leaders of other govt's, installing US puppets in their places, etc etc all over the world.

You self-righteous American warmongering hypocrites have NO say. You are an embarrassment to the world with your hypocritical whining ......

Gnome, should be afraid of his own brainwashed self.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 18, 2017 - 10:34am PT
Sir, I am
But the equivalency of the mis guided actions taken in the name of my servitude or freedom as compared to the actions of the Bildeburg ( spelling, definition?) and forces of un equanimity
The forces of evil looking to re form the totalitarian state is not to be made light of.
Your suc cling off the Government in search of Karmic balance given your Sur-name has always helped me to hold you in high esteem . But hear me I can think of several here who are far more brain washed un informed and yes STOOPID than I
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 18, 2017 - 11:18am PT
they are forced to interpret original intent onto a world very different from the one that existed at the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were conceived.

Flatly false.

We're not "forced" into anything. The constitution HAS a mode of amendment.

What is NOT legitimate is to just make the constitution "mean" whatever you want from the bench. If you want the constitution to mean something other than what it DOES mean, then CHANGE it... through proper channels.

We're not groping around about what it DOES mean. We have a vast raft of surrounding documentation making CLEAR what it does mean. The "problem" is that some people don't want it to mean THAT anymore.

So, at present BOTH factions want to own the SCOTUS so that they can legislate from the bench rather than to get over the quite high (by intention) bar set by the constitution itself.

Gorsuch will provide an anchor back into what the constitution DOES mean, and that will force both factions to have to seek change via legitimate methods.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2017 - 09:13am PT
Good article on important policy decision happening soon, and some background to understand in simple terms how gerrymandering works:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-to-hear-potentially-landmark-case-on-partisan-gerrymandering/2017/06/19/d525237e-5435-11e7-b38e-35fd8e0c288f_story.html

Packing and cracking!
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jun 19, 2017 - 09:36am PT


We're not groping around about what it DOES mean. We have a vast raft of surrounding documentation making CLEAR what it does mean.


Gorsuch will provide an anchor back into what the constitution DOES mean


What was a corporation in the 1700's?

What twisted logic supports an originalist claim (orwellian?) that equates money as speech and corporations as people.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 19, 2017 - 10:13am PT
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 19, 2017 - 11:14am PT
yo mb1: really like the post from the wee hours of this morn... only ONE word in ALL caps and it EVEN serves to further your message... :)

anyway, not trying to be a dick... now that ealazarian is [mostly] gone we need articulate and conscientious right of center voices as much as ever. so thanks for many of your missives over the last bit... i haven't had much to add or comment on, but they have not gone unnoticed.



the current political environment where both structural political sides seem to be unmotivated to focus energy on the actual complications facing the u.s. [automation/a.i. challenges to increased productivity distribution when the mean worker's wages have for the last fortyish years already been decoupled from increases in productivity; a soon to be post oil but still warmed earth; an end to u.s. originating global "manifest destiny" and the military empire that that resulted in as china quickly moves towards doubling american gdp, when only twenty years ago it was a fraction of american output; an often compromised or at least skewed democratic process due in part to questions regarding non-transparent vote tabulating machines, gerrymandering, and lack of consistent organization to the voting process; and i'm sure there are others] is SAD.

instead just more subtle and not so subtle beating of the war drums, more xenophobia [whether russians or iranians] and in general more fear of the other [whether muslims or just in general the ole standby: non-whites]...



i guess in the long run, it's one way to get mexico to pay for that wall...

at the rate this is going, the whole world will be looking to chip in for a u.s. enclosing "iron" dome...

a thunderdome, if you will.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 20, 2017 - 07:42am PT
Healthcare is far from settled.

Next week--tentatively--the senate is poised to vote on a bill that has not been reviewed by experts, the CBO, or the public, yet will likely dramatically reshape 1/6 of the economy and toss tens of millions off of their insurance coverage.

This bill is a fuking monster and it could be passed with little scrutiny.

And for what reason?

So the republicans can allow rich people to have their god damned tax cuts. That's all they care about, and why they'll put up with any abuse of power Trump metes out.

Call your senators--now.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 20, 2017 - 09:40am PT
Thanks, Nah000.

instead just more subtle and not so subtle beating of the war drums, more xenophobia [whether russians or iranians] and in general more fear of the other [whether muslims or just in general the ole standby: non-whites]...

As you know, war is the biggest business of them all, with even the fear of it fueling entire mega-industries.

If I were the President, I would veto every budget and hold the line even to the point of government shut-down until budgets were accepted by Congress that cut the defense budget in half within four years. I would also appoint two commissions that would within one year report their findings: 1) identify not market-value costs in the military; 2) identify cash-cows throughout the medical sector.

Then, within the following three years I would utilize every political and bureaucratic means at my disposal to regulate medical costs and demand that every desk, pen, and toilet seat purchased by the military was at or below typical market price. The former would start a sweeping reform process of what the practice of medicine costs, and the latter (coupled with an overarching 50% cut in the military budget) would further cut military spending.

Then, if I weren't already assassinated, it would be time to dramatically pay down the national debt and heavily invest in federally-maintained infrastructure projects.

Meanwhile, I would eliminate every form of corporate subsidy, even the sacred cow ones, such as farm subsidies. I would closely examine every corporation that is supposedly "too big to fail" and break them up, as was done to Ma Bell (to great effect). This is one of the most important roles of the federal government, imo. The era of corporate welfare would be GONE, and I would veto every budget containing any form of corporate welfare.

Coupled with this budget priority would be sweeping tax reform. Sorry, but the "it's regressive" argument won't hold water with me, and I would work with Congress to eliminate income tax, replacing that system with a federal sales tax. GONE is the IRS; the GAO can monitor the switch-over and money-flow at the POS devices. "Need" items would be tax-exempt, and vice and luxury items would have a higher tax rate. If you can afford a 5 million dollar yacht, you can afford a 6 million dollar yacht, so you'll pay 1 million in tax on such a purchase. (You all want to 'tax the rich,' and there is NO better way than to hit them where they really live: their spending.) So, the poor that are living on necessity-purchases would essentially be non-taxed, and the more that people spend on non-necessities, the more they would be taxed.

This approach would encourage saving and investments, which is the basis of a healthy economy anyway, not this spend and credit chimera we've lived with for decades. And a sales tax eliminates most of the federal government's fine-grained invasion into the details of everybody's lives. (On that point, NSA spying? Are you kidding me?)

And if I weren't assassinated by then (you, know, within the first couple of years), I would use every power at my disposal, as well as a major rah-rah campaign to get the United States off of fossil fuels within one decade.

Notice that no part of the above talks about "welfare reform" or the elimination of personal welfare programs. All of the other things we have to deal with make that reform of minimal effect. Over time, if I lasted that long, I would definitely cast an eye that direction! But, of course, I wouldn't last that long.

Finally (and meanwhile, just to ensure my assassination), I would completely revamp US foreign policy to get us entirely out of the Middle East within two years, publicly state a sweeping and strict global non-intervention policy, and put the US military back into a "defense" rather than "offense" mode.

By this time I would surely be assassinated (having pissed off pretty much everybody with any power), so further policy discussion is moot.

Uh, just curious. How "right wing" do my priorities sound?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 20, 2017 - 09:45am PT
....If I were the President, I would veto every budget and hold the line even to the point of government shut-down until budgets were accepted by Congress that cut the defense budget in half within four years. I would also appoint two commissions that would within one year report their findings: 1) identify not market-value costs in the military; 2) identify cash-cows throughout the medical sector....

Take on the MIC and you'd be dead within days. Either of "natural causes" or something more blatant like an open air ride in lovely Dallas.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 20, 2017 - 10:42am PT
^^^ Exactly
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 20, 2017 - 10:56am PT
it's called a populist agenda

most people that run on a populist agenda fail miserably
from either they were lying all along, or pressure from the outside groups is too heavy to endure

and the Republican Congress would stop you in your tracks
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 20, 2017 - 11:04am PT

Harry Frankfurt - 'On Bullshit'

[Click to View YouTube Video]

One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullsh#t. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern. We have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, as Harry Frankfurt writes, "we have no theory."

Frankfurt, one of the world's most influential moral philosophers, attempts to build such a theory here. With his characteristic combination of philosophical acuity, psychological insight, and wry humor, Frankfurt proceeds by exploring how bullshit and the related concept of humbug are distinct from lying. He argues that bullshitters misrepresent themselves to their audience not as liars do, that is, by deliberately making false claims about what is true. In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.

Rather, bullshitters seek to convey a certain impression of themselves without being concerned about whether anything at all is true. They quietly change the rules governing their end of the conversation so that claims about truth and falsity are irrelevant. Frankfurt concludes that although bullshit can take many innocent forms, excessive indulgence in it can eventually undermine the practitioner's capacity to tell the truth in a way that lying does not. Liars at least acknowledge that it matters what is true. By virtue of this, Frankfurt writes, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 20, 2017 - 11:15am PT

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:40am PT
Thanks, Nah000.

instead just more subtle and not so subtle beating of the war drums, more xenophobia [whether russians or iranians] and in general more fear of the other [whether muslims or just in general the ole standby: non-whites]...

As you know, war is the biggest business of them all, with even the fear of it fueling entire mega-industries.

If I were the President, I would veto every budget and hold the line even to the point of government shut-down until budgets were accepted by Congress that cut the defense budget in half within four years. I would also appoint two commissions that would within one year report their findings: 1) identify not market-value costs in the military; 2) identify cash-cows throughout the medical sector.

Then, within the following three years I would utilize every political and bureaucratic means at my disposal to regulate medical costs and demand that every desk, pen, and toilet seat purchased by the military was at or below typical market price. The former would start a sweeping reform process of what the practice of medicine costs, and the latter (coupled with an overarching 50% cut in the military budget) would further cut military spending.

Then, if I weren't already assassinated, it would be time to dramatically pay down the national debt and heavily invest in federally-maintained infrastructure projects.

Meanwhile, I would eliminate every form of corporate subsidy, even the sacred cow ones, such as farm subsidies. I would closely examine every corporation that is supposedly "too big to fail" and break them up, as was done to Ma Bell (to great effect). This is one of the most important roles of the federal government, imo. The era of corporate welfare would be GONE, and I would veto every budget containing any form of corporate welfare.

Coupled with this budget priority would be sweeping tax reform. Sorry, but the "it's regressive" argument won't hold water with me, and I would work with Congress to eliminate income tax, replacing that system with a federal sales tax. GONE is the IRS; the GAO can monitor the switch-over and money-flow at the POS devices. "Need" items would be tax-exempt, and vice and luxury items would have a higher tax rate. If you can afford a 5 million dollar yacht, you can afford a 6 million dollar yacht, so you'll pay 1 million in tax on such a purchase. (You all want to 'tax the rich,' and there is NO better way than to hit them where they really live: their spending.) So, the poor that are living on necessity-purchases would essentially be non-taxed, and the more that people spend on non-necessities, the more they would be taxed.

This approach would encourage saving and investments, which is the basis of a healthy economy anyway, not this spend and credit chimera we've lived with for decades. And a sales tax eliminates most of the federal government's fine-grained invasion into the details of everybody's lives. (On that point, NSA spying? Are you kidding me?)

And if I weren't assassinated by then (you, know, within the first couple of years), I would use every power at my disposal, as well as a major rah-rah campaign to get the United States off of fossil fuels within one decade.

Notice that no part of the above talks about "welfare reform" or the elimination of personal welfare programs. All of the other things we have to deal with make that reform of minimal effect. Over time, if I lasted that long, I would definitely cast an eye that direction! But, of course, I wouldn't last that long.

Finally (and meanwhile, just to ensure my assassination), I would completely revamp US foreign policy to get us entirely out of the Middle East within two years, publicly state a sweeping and strict global non-intervention policy, and put the US military back into a "defense" rather than "offense" mode.

By this time I would surely be assassinated (having pissed off pretty much everybody with any power), so further policy discussion is moot.

Uh, just curious. How "right wing" do my priorities sound?

Damn, actually found myself agreeing with you. About time you had a epiphany.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2017 - 11:27am PT
+1 for the Madbolter strategy


Except before the election even, the strategy would be completely cast as unAmerican and trying to harm ma and pa and apple pie and killing babies and letting our country be overrun by the evil in the world just waiting for us to let our guard down.

So it wouldn't need to get to the assassination stage.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 20, 2017 - 11:30am PT
Won't happen short of calamity.

I think that's true, sadly.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 20, 2017 - 11:31am PT
About time you had a epiphany.

No, I've pretty much always believed these things. I've expressed similar things many times on these threads.

Cheers

Edit: I really do believe that the right is just as dangerous as the left. Both ridiculous labels fail to fully encapsulate what most people believe, yet both sides use such labels to box and package (then quickly dismiss) people on "the other side."

We're not going to agree on all (or perhaps even most) points. But if the people could get largely unified around some basic priorities, we could (hopefully without disaster first) impress upon our "representatives" what MUST happen.

* The USA off of fossil fuels within a decade.

* A completely revamped tax system (it's outrageous that it's literally impossible for most people to comply with the tax law; in this case 'ignorance of the law' IS a totally legitimate 'excuse'.

* An end to wars of conquest and the manipulation of foreign governments. This is not 'hard' to accomplish; you just STOP doing things. And this policy enables us to radically scale back our military spending.

* An end to all forms of 'welfare,' starting with corporate welfare. Again, just stop.

* Genuine regulation of entities that are deemed 'too big to fail.'

It seems that some list of priorities could gain enough consensus that we really could en-mass pass this along to our 'representatives' and say, "MAKE this happen, and right now, or you're gone!"
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 20, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
The USA off of fossil fuels within a decade.

This would also mean the death, of what is essentially already dead, the almighty USD...

There's a tough, bloody road ahead, sociopaths who will not go quietly into the night.


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 20, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
if you had a liberal Democratic Congress and Supreme Court, you could get many of those agenda items through
they have proposed many of them over the years, but the Republicans blocked them

The Republicans are the ones that would stop all of those agenda items

and it was the Republicans in the first place that gave us what we have now, mostly Reagan legacy items

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 20, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
GOP won't publicly release their healthcare bill

^^Why is this is? How can you not when it is supposedly for the public??

Are they competing with Trump for,...I don't know what?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jun 20, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
+1 for the Madbolter strategy

+2
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 20, 2017 - 06:31pm PT
+1 for MB1's strategy. Probably couldn't seriously disagree with any of it, except that prudence might require a slow implementation to tweak that sales tax as unintended adverse consequences occur. This isn't a pipe dream, this could happen under the right administration and it won't be Republican.

I do think that total elimination of all "corporate subsides" is too broad a brush. If you're going to regulate the profitability of healthcare for the common good, there are many industries that can be helped or penalized for the common good too. Until corporations are not people, we'll never see this happen.

The biggest "problem" is that you seem to spend so much time claiming that government has no role providing us with such bourgeois luxuries as affordable healthcare, clean air or a stable climate.

TE
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 20, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
And how about welfare for people that need it?
No help?

let them do without any Gov. help seems to be the libertarian populist agenda promoted by MB

they don't have anything to help those w/o money

and if you have any rational thinking neurons, you quickly realize that the only help possible is from the Gov., there is nothing else
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 20, 2017 - 09:51pm PT
When I visited England in 1985 to give a talk I met a number of healthy young men, all of whom were on the "dole." They pooled their welfare checks and rented a large house and went climbing, day after day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 20, 2017 - 10:47pm PT
^^^ The problem, John, is that libs want there to be welfare. They just want to draw arbitrary lines around it. So, at this point, I really don't know how to seek consensus.

At this point I'd be ready to say, "Fine, I won't even touch individual persons' welfare." But, the problem is that then the libs will say, "Great, and now that we have so much more money to throw around, let's have free college, free cell phones, free Internet access, free food, and even free prostitutes once per week for anybody who wants any of these things." It's the classic, "give an inch and be taken for a mile."

There are no principled lines that I can see, so I don't know how to stop the endless hemorrhaging. No amount of money is enough for all the freebies, because there will always be some other "right" that "society" must satisfy. And "society" always means taxpayers, which are in dwindling supply.

I'd go a long way to find consensus, but I literally don't know what it would take short of just swallowing the full liberal agenda. I'm no right-winger, but I'm no lib either; there HAVE to be some lines somewhere, and the libs want newly-minted "rights" everywhere you look.

So, it sure looks like for libs it's a zero-sum game: The nation must be FULL-left-wing, or there can be no consensus. But that's not "consensus." That's just being intractable.

My list pretty clearly shows that I'm tractable. I'd like to hear what the libs would "give" to find some middle ground.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 20, 2017 - 11:51pm PT
...cut the defense budget in half within four years

Eight years maybe, four years would be too disruptive and what you really have to go after is bases, fleets, force levels, weapons programs, and procurement - bases and weapons programs in particular are widely distributed across states specifically to make them hard to close or cancel.

...end wars of conquest

That's too simplistic. Better to get way, way smarter at foreign policy and trade to lessen the need for wars (and for which there are far better ways to deal with).

...identify cash-cows throughout the medical sector.

That would primarily be pharmaceutical, private health insurance companies, and overly large hospital systems - rein in the first, remove the second from basic healthcare, and break up the third.

..dramatically pay down the national debt

Far less of a priority as far as I'm concerned.

...heavily invest in federally-maintained infrastructure projects

Always a good call so long as it isn't just a cover for massive graft operations that privatize or pseudo-privatize public infrastructure.

...eliminate every form of corporate subsidy

Another good call.

...examine every corporation that is supposedly "too big to fail" and break them up

And yet another and overturn Citizens United.

...eliminate income tax, replacing that system with a federal sales tax

You're on a roll.

...get the United States off of fossil fuels within one decade

Hmmm, ten years? Reduce coal consumption by 80%, natural gas by 40%, switch out the oldest third of large water-cooled nuclear plants for small modular nuclear reactor systems, invest in more distributed grid systems and micro-distribution, push and fund research and trials of various utility-scale energy storage technologies in a big way.

...get us entirely out of the Middle East within two years

Definitely, and particularly stop funding Israel or just make it a state (given we already fund it like one).
WBraun

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 09:53am PT
Just put anyone in place of Trump or yourself in this and is still what you'll get.

dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:05am PT
Silly
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:23am PT
"Deep state" - more kindergarten-level, alt-conspiracy nonsense. The mindless sh#t you people will buy into is truly astonishing.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 21, 2017 - 11:54am PT
Is trump draining the swamp or filling it up with snake oil?

I like how his idea of draining the swamp is to put lobbyists and corporate people in charge of the industries they're supposed to regulate.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
^^^ Please explain that one with examples.

I mean, it seems to me that you want "corporate people" in charge of sectors they actually know something about. Now, if they are corrupt, that's its own problem to be addressed. But, consider the alternative....

If Trump appoints people not successfully in-the-know from the specified sector, I believe that you'd all be complaining along the lines of, "What a buffoon! He can't even find qualified people to appoint. It's like, just random!" And so on.

So, please explain how Trump can avoid the damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. And please give examples of corruption in these people, so that we can talk about what would really matter, assuming the basic competency of such people.

I'm being serious. I haven't followed his appointees beyond Gorsuch, so I might well have something to learn here. But just based on your comment, I'm not convinced that there's a problem, so I'd like to know why you think there is. Appointing "corporate people" seems like exactly the correct thing to do.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 21, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
It's worth pointing out how stupid Trump's slogan of draining the swamp is/was.

But the establishment types that he has appointed are some of his better picks. Although even these picks leave a lot to be desired. I would rather have a former CEO of Exxon making all of the USA's foreign policy decisions than the president and his close associates. Rather sad state of affairs.

I actually think there is something to the Deep State. Just replace the words "Deep State" with "Checks and Balances" and you have exactly what the Constitution envisioned when dealing with an out-of-control, authoritarian Chief Executive.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
^^^ Please explain that one with examples.

Come'on! F*#king seriously?

Every single cabinet and oversight position has been filled by an 18 foot alligator hand picked to either dismantle those agencies and their oversight or to insure the banks, corporations and wealthy have even more license to steal, rape and pillage at will without consequences...
dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
Starting with the man at the top. He is raking in a fortune while violating both the foreign and domestic emoluments clauses of the constituents.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
Ben Carson. HUD. Problem: He has no experience in government or in the field of housing and urban development.

Scott Pruitt. EPA. Problem: He doesn't believe in global warming.

Jared Kushner. Senior Advisor to the President. Problem: Knows real estate, little else.

Rex Tillerson. SOS. Problem: Knows about oil, not foreign policy.

As for Hannity's "deep state", sounds like something made up for the weak minded.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
Ben Carson. HUD. Problem: He has no experience in government or in the field of housing and urban development.

Scott Pruitt. EPA. Problem: He doesn't believe in global warming.

Jared Kushner. Senior Advisor to the President. Problem: Knows real estate, little else.

Rex Tillerson. SOS. Problem: Knows about oil, not foreign policy.

Okay, but these are all different points than the one Fet was making. He was bemoaning something like "industry insiders," which can certainly be cast as a GOOD thing (read: competency in the field).

You are asserting exactly the OPPOSITE regarding three of your four examples. So, which is it? Are these "insiders" that are literally foxes guarding the very henhouses they are knowledgeable about, or are they incompetents that are not knowledgeable in their appointed fields?

You can't have it BOTH ways, so is Fet correct, or are you correct?

And, note that the "problems" you state are really just opinions, not clear-cut evidences of incompetency. So, again I'll ask: How could Trump have avoided damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
I'm not arguing that experience means a political pick is necessarily flawed. I vote for rhe candidate with experience, not the really tv guy.

Some picks are ok, others flawed. Rick Perry heading a dept he wants to eliminate?

Really doesn't matter, Trump doesn't give a sh#t what these people do or say anyway. His eyes glass over the second he gets in a room with these people, except when they tell him how great he is. Ugh.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
Crankloon wakes up every day and swallows a bitter pill

Then proceeds to build his confirmation biased opinions based on the latest headlines

No fact or thought-based process involved. Just loon hysteria

Example: Rex Tillerson just knows oil??

CEO of the largest company in the world. Dealt with more world leaders than Hillary/Kerry combined.

Unique aspects of policy that the former clowns were never privy to.

The politard haters here post up scathing opinions but never back them up with FACTS!

You politards should be scheming to get rid of that witch Pelosi who's dragging your party into the dregs
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
Well, if it isn't (hick) Mr. 2 am drunk poster. At it early, eh?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
His eyes glass over the second he gets in a room with these people, except when they tell him how great he is. Ugh.

I actually think that there's a lot of truth to that statement.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 21, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
Really doesn't matter, Trump doesn't give a sh#t what these people do or say anyway. His eyes glass over the second he gets in a room with these people, except when they tell him how great he is. Ugh.

I am not a fan of trump's cabinet, but I believe that Tillerson, and Mattis are the best of the lot.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
CEO of the largest company in the world. Dealt with more world leaders than Hillary/Kerry combined.

An example of what I mean. When a person is looking to bash another person, the interpretation of "evidence" matters more than the "evidence" itself. If you know in advance that an appointment is NECESSARILY going to be bad, then, of course, it's bad, and it's easy to interpret observations to vindicate the pre-existing judgment. So, of COURSE Trump is a buffoon, because, well, just look at his appointments.

But what we're really looking at is the interpretations.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 21, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
Well, if it isn't (hick) Mr. 2 am drunk poster. At it early, eh?

Loon...you prove me right every time. No FACTS! Just assumptions and bitterness
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 21, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
Lots of $ spent by the DP in Georgia. They're still not on track for realignment and success. But I'm rootin' for 'em. We need two strong parties.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 21, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
Yep, pretty dumb place to shoot your wad.

They are the GOP a few years back, all criticism and no message. They need to ignore Trump. He is his own worst enemy anyway.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
By the numbers, ossoff did fine. He turned a R +26 district into a R + 4 district, a 22 point swing. His candidacy was always very much a long shot. Other contested solld R districts fared similarly in other special elections. The GOP has its work cut out next year.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 21, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
They are the GOP a few years back, all criticism and no message. They need to ignore Trump. He is his own worst enemy anyway.

Well said.

They need new leadership.

Tulsi Gabbard is your huckleberry.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 21, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
They need to ignore Trump. He is his own worst enemy anyway.

I agree. He keeps shooting himself in the foot. At some point the repubs in Congress will look at 2018, and say we need to dump this guy.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
well, the Senate's version of TrumpCare is due out to the public tomorrow and the WaPo has a copy, looks like the Medicaid expansion under the ACA will be phased out completely in about seven years to 20 million Americans close to the poverty line will lose their healthcare nice and gradually, making the bill not so "mean" as the House version. No word yet on how some 50% of the population with pre existing conditions will be dealt with, presumably they can call go joint individual state high risk pools at much higher monthly premiums than under the ACA.

The old, poor, and sick who are not 65 and eligible to be on Medicare will be hit hard, much higher monthly premiums.

Looks like the only real winners will be the young and healthy who should see lower premiums but also less coverages.

These changes if passed into law should allow the Republicans to stay in power through the 2020 elections because of the way the drastic changes are timed.

The bad news for the Repubs is that the US media will be blasting these negatives day and night for a very long time. They will own healthcare in America and whoever has owned it in the past has suffered the most at voting time. But they promised their base so they gotta do it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 21, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Breaking ​news: Trump still an ignorant as#@&%e.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
It's true, though, dmt. That was not really a winnable seat. If the Dems perform that well in swing districts (24 point Improvement from 2016) they'll be fine.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 21, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
well, the Senate's version of TrumpCare is due out to the public tomorrow and the WaPo has a copy, looks like the Medicaid expansion under the ACA will be phased out completely in about seven years to 20 million Americans close to the poverty line will lose their healthcare nice and gradually, making the bill not so "mean" as the House version. No word yet on how some 50% of the population with pre existing conditions will be dealt with, presumably they can call go joint individual state high risk pools at much higher monthly premiums than under the ACA.

The old, poor, and sick who are not 65 and eligible to be on Medicare will be hit hard, much higher monthly premiums.

Looks like the only real winners will be the young and healthy who should see lower premiums but also less coverages.

These changes if passed into law should allow the Republicans to stay in power through the 2020 elections because of the way the drastic changes are timed.

The bad news for the Repubs is that the US media will be blasting these negatives day and night for a very long time. They will own healthcare in America and whoever has owned it in the past has suffered the most at voting time. But they promised their base so they gotta do it.

The public should quit bitching about health care. If the ahca is enacted, the rich would then be able get tax cuts so all will be fine.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
It's true, though, dmt.

I'm being serious, not snarky. This "it's true" bit "worked" right up until Trump did the "impossible." Now, four special elections; 0/4 for Dems... I guess all "not winnable."

It's all interpretation. But the SJW, freebies for all, money grows on trees mentality is wearing thin across the nation, except for in a few liberal strongholds.

And now California votes to provide taxpayer money to illegal aliens for legal fees? Well, that'll probably eventually end up at the SCOTUS for review, and I can't imagine how that's going to fly. Meanwhile, that sort of thing provides libs with hollow, little "victories" that lose them the big-picture nationally. Most Americans are not in favor of such policies and the perspectives that motivate them, and such "victories" are just further and further isolating far-left liberals from mainstream America.

Moderation is the key to bigger-picture victories for the long term.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jun 21, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
and the WaPo has a copy

Straight BS.

They have nothing.

You are a bottom feeder.....at the local waste treatment center.

We'll see what the Rep's come up with.

They can only improve on the current disaster
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 21, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
MAd-
But the SJW, freebies for all, money grows on trees mentality is wearing thin across the nation, except for in a few liberal strongholds.
Dropping esteamly, professor turds again?
Apparently money does grow on trees for a select few....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 21, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
By the numbers, ossoff did fine.

I heard a GOP rep discussing this yesterday, and what he said was he was happy they won this strongly GOP seat....but they should have won by more, and they shouldn't have had to spend $20 million dollars to squeak it out.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 21, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
And if you think it is a coincidence that the GOP is releasing it's Senate Healthcare bill two days AFTER that election.......
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 21, 2017 - 09:29pm PT
By the numbers, ossoff did fine. He turned a R +26 district into a R + 4 district, a 22 point swing. His candidacy was always very much a long shot. Other contested solld R districts fared similarly in other special elections. The GOP has its work cut out next year.

Totally disagree. The dems are the ones who have their work cutout for them.

Possible solutions:

Demote Pelosi.
Appeal to your original base, the largest voting bloc in the country, white people, and don't create policies that threaten whites.
Dems can be progressive, but have to remarket themselves.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 21, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
^^^And start thinking of a presidential candidate from middle America.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
Apparently money does grow on trees for a select few....

Your chart makes my point for me. The middle class has been getting increasingly raped for decades.

And if you think we can keep spending as we have with our wildly increasing national debt, then you'll have to come up with even more money than the rich can provide. If you think that they are just going to roll over and say, "Yeah, sure, we'll be taxed at 90%, and we'll just hand over 40% of our wealth," then I guess you believe in class warfare, like extracting such "concessions" by force of arms.

You're not going to keep providing freebies via more and more theft. And, the debt has got to be paid down, a LOT. So, no, money does not grow on trees, and the era of freebies (both to corporations and to individuals) has GOT to come to an end. THAT is the biggest concern of the middle-class right now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
People, pull you sh#t together. These special elections were in solid GOP districts where the trump appointee being replaced won in double digits in every case. The results of the 2017 special elections? All were decided by single digits and Trumpco hasn't even begun to screw their base yet which they are on a fast track to start doing in a big way in advance of 2018 and will have really put the screws to them by 2020.

Here are the results: candidate's win % / predecessor's win % / voter turnout / % of non-white voters

 Kansas Special House Election / 7% / 31% / low / 12%

 Georgia Special House Election / 4% / 22% / high / 27%

 South Carolina Special Election / 3% / 21% / abysmal / 32%

 Montana Special House Election / 6% / 16% / high / 11%

Those are good gains for dems in solid gop districts in all cases given trump's base hasn't even begun to feel the impact of the changes trumpco has in the pipeline. Once they really start getting screwed, and the start understanding how many of his promises were lies, those numbers will erode further.

But hey, you want to win in solid gop districts like these in 2018 and 2020? It's all about the turnout, particularly among the young and minorities. Right now they're just screwing themselves by staying home. But let's be clear: given trumpco hasn't really started rolling out their working persons' hell yet, and the fact these were special elections in highly gerrymandered districts, I have no complaints or worries about the results.

Every new day is a day trumpco is doing and saying something ignorant and screwing his base in some way or another, it will just take time for those changes to actually rollout and hit his base, but they're coming.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
I agree with you on the debt and I'd love to see a deficit Hawk wing emerge from a moderate coalition with moderate solutions. The extreme right has gone off the reservation in favor of Trump's budget busting tax plan.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:31pm PT
Judging from past behavior , Trump's base will thoroughly enjoy getting royally screwed while begging for more...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
Judging from past behavior , Trump's base will thoroughly enjoy getting royally screwed while begging for more...

I would normally agree with you and that might be the case in 2018, but by 2020 the full effect and depth of the trumpco anal probing should have revealed itself to even the most hardened blue collar trump supporter. Those working people who remain loyal at that point will be hyper-partisans, evangelicals, racists, homophobes or xenophobes.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2017 - 12:52am PT
I agree with you on the debt and I'd love to see a deficit Hawk wing emerge from a moderate coalition with moderate solutions. The extreme right has gone off the reservation in favor of Trump's budget busting tax plan.

Yes! Cutting taxes at this point is insanity. I believe that we must instead reallocate spending, starting with military cuts and the systematic elimination of corporate welfare and the many forms of subsidies, thereby freeing up funds to reduce debt.

Once the debt is lower and the dollar is stronger than it's been in most of our lifetimes, then we can start talking about tax reductions and monetary "redistribution" again. But I believe that we are seriously in crisis mode at this point.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2017 - 02:11am PT
Where was all the gop deficit angst, wailing, and hand wringing when Ronnie was in office?


I'm not really concerned...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2017 - 03:31am PT
^^^ You should be. You've fallen into the common confusion of talking about deficit like it's debt. Our debt to GDP ratio is at its worst in 70 years.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp

The United States recorded a government debt equivalent to 106.10 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2016. Government Debt to GDP in the United States averaged 61.14 percent from 1940 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 118.90 percent in 1946 and a record low of 31.70 percent in 1981.

And, while you bag on Ronnie, the debt was at its absolute lowest percentage of GDP during his years. Now, by contrast, we're pushing at percentages that we haven't seen in 70 years. And a huge difference between today and 1946 is that relatively few people are working, taxpaying citizens compared to then.


I'm not making any value-judgments about people that don't pay income tax, just noting that the percentage of the population burdened with that debt is far smaller than at any point in our history: A smaller proportion of people than ever before is saddled with just about the greatest proportion of indebtedness. Not a good combination. And as the Boomer generation entirely retires, the percentages will only get worse.

And keep in mind that "payroll taxes" do not contribute to "net taxation revenues" like income taxes do. "Payroll taxes" only fund "entitlements" like Medicare and SS, and that pyramid scheme has about played itself out. It's not a "cash cow." By sharp contrast, it adds to the debt, as it doesn't even pay for itself.

Unless you want to see a world war create an economic boom that more than offsets the debt the war itself creates (like in the early/mid-40s), we're slipping off the cliff.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 22, 2017 - 07:21am PT
money grows on trees mentality is wearing thin across the nation, except for in a few liberal strongholds.

When it comes to shoveling money to the military and corporate welfare, you better believe the right wing believes money grows on trees as well.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:20am PT
I'm not in any way confusing the two and am not particularly worried about the debt. You want to pay it down? It's all about corporations and the wealthy who haven't been paying their share for some time now...


And the wealthiest 20% of individuals control 93% of the wealth so the fact they're only paying half the taxes is getting away with murder.

If, over the past forty years - exactly when the debt-to-gdp ratio went off the rails - corporations had actually been paying anywhere remotely near their on-paper tax rate and if the wealthiest among us actually shouldering their share of taxes and we hadn't squandered tens of trillions on military conflicts then we wouldn't have the debt we do. You're blaming the wrong people for the problem.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:24am PT
Just like Al Gore “invented” the internet, The Donald wants to take credit for coming up with the ‘brilliant’ idea of putting solar panels on the Great Wall of America.

Never mind that at least one bidding firm, Las Vegas-based Gleason Partners, had submitted a design that included solar panels, and in the March 7 edition of The Wall Street Journal, there is an article stating that it was suggested by others last year.

Perhaps Trump did come up with the idea as he claims, but somehow, looking at his track record of lies, I doubt it.

The guy is so full of himself, it is a wonder he hasn’t imploded yet.

Am I nitpicking? Yep, but just to illustrate that the guy is one egotistical sick puppy.

And for once I agree with some of what Madbolter has written. And John Gill is right, America needs at least two strong sensible parties.

Also, Pelosi is a drag on the party. Dump her.

And… politics is a dirty business, we all know that. Who would want to be a politician. But trying to tie Ossoff with the Scalise/baseball field shooting as the GOP did is pretty low. Yes, Handel publicly condemned the ad, but I wonder if in private she welcomed it.

The deeper the divide becomes, both in politics and society, does not bode well for the nation.

EDIT
Trying to equate liberals with any sickos who may have “delighted” in the shootings is as perverse as equating Trump supporters with the KKK.

As far as I can tell most liberals and conservatives are probably decent people who would be appalled at violence.

There are extreme elements on both sides, indeed all sides, of the divide.

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:33am PT
Debating the national debt with this bufffon as commander in chief is silly behind belief. Like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:38am PT
It's all about corporations and the wealthy who haven't been paying their share for some time now...

Yeah and her name is Elephante Rosa; but hey a lot of folks believe it is the Mexicans and families on welfare that has put America in such bad shape over the last couple decades, or whenever..?
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Well......

it appears John Boehner was right when he was interviewed earlier this year and said that his Republicans will not repeal the ACA.

He said getting enough of them to agree on major legislation is like herding cats, can't govern.

Rand Paul just said he will very likely not vote for the Senate Republican healthcare bill.

Because it is not cruel enough, it still leaves some people with ACA coverage, f*#k him.

The bill cuts off all funding for Planned Parenthood, and with that you can say goodbe to getting women Republican Senators to vote for it.

With only a 52-48 majority in the Senate, this thing looks DOA
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 22, 2017 - 09:13am PT
The typical and tiresome left/right - blame-the-other-guys is a bunch of crap.

https://www.amazon.com/Propaganda-Edward-Bernays/dp/0970312598
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 09:17am PT
I have a problem with my fellow Republicans continuing to fund "entitlements"

They have controlled the House, the main spending arm of the Federal government, since 2010
and every year since then they vote to continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to give to the "poor"

I am sick and tired of Republicans voting for entitlements, voting to give hard earned tax dollars to fund food stamps, unemployment payments, Section 8 rent housing, general welfare

Tax and spend, that's all Republicans know how to do, tax and spend, sickening.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 09:33am PT
So, I read the oft repeated lie that Social Security is in "trouble" financially

that it is a "pyramid" scheme, insolvent, unable to sustain itself

nothing could be farther from the truth

SS currently has a 2.8 Trillion dollar "surplus" and with absolutely no changes is able to fully fund retirement benefits until 2030

no changes means not even raising the cap on SS payroll taxes

you make what, $118,000 a year and you pay 6.2% in SS, yet anyone making more than that pays the same dollar amount, that is a regressive tax, unfair and easily fixable

angry with having to pay SS payroll tax? Then blame Republicans, they control the House, Senate and the Presidency, yet we hear nothing from them for eliminating this horrible "entitlement", Americans are adults, we don't need no stinking big government to "help" us retire
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 22, 2017 - 09:53am PT
Nope. Not angry about any taxes I pay, really. And I pay a lot.

I couldn't agree more! I don't really pay a lot but as a % I do and am fine with it. I would rather more go to social and infrastructure programs/projects in the USofA instead of bombing brown folks for oil.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 22, 2017 - 10:04am PT
Characterizing liberals as fiscally irresponsible is another divisive right wing talking point. Most liberals I know are fiscally conservative. They would just rather spend the money on services and social improvements rather than military build ups and corporate welfare. That is the main difference.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2017 - 10:51am PT
When it comes to shoveling money to the military and corporate welfare, you better believe the right wing believes money grows on trees as well.

No doubt. Eliminating that was high on my posted priorities list. Make me emperor, and we'll all get along fine!

:-)
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 11:14am PT
The support for Bush 2 Iraq invastion and Afghanistan was sickening, to me.

exactly, Dingus

and that horrible Liberal Rag, the NY Times, was leading the drum beat for the invasion

remember good old Hans Blix, the United Nations weapons inspector who was charged with finding out if Iraq really really did have WMD's?

Hans said nope, can't them them WMD's in Iraq

and so President Bush ordered him out of iraq and started the invasion

and then because no WMD's were found Bush changed the narrative, then saying that the reason we were invading Iraq was to get rid of that mean old Saddam Hussein

but hey, Bush was a good old boy you would like to have a beer with so let's vote for him!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2017 - 11:30am PT
nothing could be farther from the truth

SS currently has a 2.8 Trillion dollar "surplus" and with absolutely no changes is able to fully fund retirement benefits until 2030

Actually, your own post makes my point.

If we're in such "fat city," they why are you talking about depletion?

The "surplus" rises and falls over time. But we are now facing a situation in which for the second time (the first was in 1983) we are talking about DEPLETION. So, this "surplus" is a chimera (a very large one). It merely reflects the peak of the Boomer generation's paying and paying. But more and more will be taking and taking (and they ARE entitled to every dime they take, as they will not get back as much as they paid in).

So, you are looking at a historical peak, and the projected date of depletion is indeed 2033.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v75n1/v75n1p1.html

It's no "lie" to call the SS scam a pyramid scheme. Not only does Congress have to keep "changing the rules" regarding retirement age, benefits-scales, and so on (because the "surplus" really is an "on-paper variable" and always has been), but Congress has repeatedly had to pass "rescue" bills to fund SS out of the general budget.

The most recent, and most sweeping, of these was in 1983. This "rescue" bill attempted major reforms in how SS was funded, and it "saved SS" but at the cost of completely breaking faith with those that had paid into the fund during their lives.

Here are just some of the "reforms" from ssa.gov (https://www.ssa.gov/history/50rb.html)

* The self-employed were required to pay Social Security rates that are comparable to what is paid by and on behalf of employees, a considerable increase over what they had been paying in the past.

* Higher-income Social Security beneficiaries (less than 10 percent of all beneficiaries) were for the first time required to pay an income tax on one-half their Social Security benefits, with the proceeds of the tax going to support Social Security.

* Beneficiaries had the cost-of-living adjustment postponed 6 months and put permanently on a calendar year basis, a move which amounted to approximately a 2.5 percent benefit cut for both present and future beneficiaries. (emphasis supplied)

Of note is that the ssa.gov pages are not even internally consistent. The page quoted from just above sums up by saying: "Social Security is now safe for the indefinite future." But the previously quoted page flatly states that SS will be depleted in 2033 if nothing is done to (yet again) rescue the system.

And monies were shunted from the general fund to prop up the SS fund in the short term while the effects of the "reform" materialized.

That means that Boomer taxpayers were literally being double-taxed for the SS "benefits" that they will someday draw upon, as they paid the typical "payroll taxes" AND paid into SS via regular "income taxes" that were then shunted into SS rescue.

Worse, when they finally draw on their funds, the "higher income" Boomers will be in effect triple-taxed, due to the 1983 "reform" that taxes the BENEFITS paid back out (at a loss, already, to the recipients).

Finally, the extent of what a chimera that magical "fund" is to which you refer is revealed in the following article. (And you'll like this, because most of the article is truly bashing on Christie and other Repubs for their misinformation about SS.)

http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2015/09/25/did-bush-or-any-president-borrow-money-from-social

Here's the key summation: "The Trust Fund holds roughly $2.8 trillion in government securities. This sum is held against $29 trillion in promises for which the system does not expect to generate cash. That is a dime of solution for every dollar of problem."

The entire article is very revealing. The net effect of the above is that the "surplus" is a chimera, by ANY means it will be "depleted" by 2033 (which means that it IS being drained faster than they pyramid scheme (and rescues) can fund it), and even what's "there" amounts to government IOUs.

SS hasn't been solvent from basically the inception, the Boomer retirement is a flat-out crisis, and the sweeping rule-changes over the years to basically screw retirees out of even more of THEIR money has repeatedly broken faith with the people that are FORCED to pay into a scheme that is "guaranteed" ONLY to pay them back later less than they originally paid in.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2017 - 11:36am PT
I'm not in any way confusing the two and am not particularly worried about the debt.

Actually, Joe, you are. And obviously so. We were talking about national DEBT. You then posted a chart that says right on it: DEFICIT. Your chart comes completely apart from mine, which does show DEBT. So, you flatly WERE talking about DEFICIT, when the discussion was about DEBT.

And, as I said, if you're not worried about our DEBT, then you have your head in the sand. We are facing a combination of historically high debt and historically low numbers of people paying into the system.

At present, the ONLY reason we're floating it is that interest rates are still at historical lows and are artificially being kept there by the Fed. It's a delicate balancing act that the Fed IS losing. (Maybe more on that in another post.)

The confluence of factors now make our present debt much more concerning than at any other time in our nation's history. And, at present, neither of the two parties are taking it seriously.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 22, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
https://www.creditloan.com/blog/americans-debt-to-income-ratio-as-compared-with-other-countries/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
I was interjecting, not joining your conversation.

Again, not worried about the debt (or deficit spending) - it's going to be the only driver to stop dropping trillions on wars and to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy. Until then, party on...


And, again, it's not the raw number of people paying in, it's corporations and the small percentage of people making the bulk of the money off of our economy who need to be paying in. When 20% of the population control 93% of the wealth you don't go squeeze on the 80% for a few nickels and dimes - you go after the real money.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
MB1 has a comprehension problem with the concept of "unfunded entitlements", but who cares

-------

*Education, Not Income, Predicted Who Would Vote For Trump- 538.com

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 22, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
McConnell should be biding his time at the Jolly Time assisted living facility. He, McCain, Grassley, Hatch, etc are too f*#king old. So old, in fact, that they have lost touch with reality.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
It would raise costs, reduce coverage, roll back protections, and ruin Medicaid as we know it.


The ACA already did that.

Neither party's plans for healthcare are about helping the American people.

It's about making money

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 22, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
How did the ACA ruin Medicaid?
c wilmot

climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 01:26pm PT
Their is not enough doctors willing to treat Medicaid patients. The aca has led to increased use of emergency rooms by People on Medicaid as a result of the aca massively overloading the system.

I don't feel forcing the poor to use the ER rather than visiting a primary care doctor to be a measure of success.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 22, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
Medicaid was 'ruined' because Obummer put more money into it? Bizzaro world.

And now it will get 'fixed' when Trumpcare removes the money.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 22, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
Cwilmot...your post is bullsh#t, typical for you, do you ever try to find what is factual.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-insurance/articles/2015/05/26/youve-got-medicaid-why-cant-you-see-the-doctor


"A 2011 nationwide survey of doctors found 31 percent were “unwilling” to accept new Medicaid patients, with acceptance rates across states varying widely. Across the nation, the study estimated 69 percent of doctors were accepting Medicaid, but state acceptance rates ranged from a low of 40 percent in New Jersey to 99 percent in Wyoming, according to the study published in Health Affairs. This was pre-ACA expansion and prior to any reimbursement fee changes."


Comes down to money.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
So why are ER visits by Medicaid patients up so drastically bob?

The aca was supposed have the opposite result.

And I never said the aca caused doctors to refrain from treating Medicaid patients. I said the aca resulted in an increase of patients on the existing system.

You are confused

Though I agree it's about money. Which is why I feel having more Medicaid patients using the ER instead of a primary care doctor is a failure if the aca
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 22, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Maybe because they get in faster, they can't get a primary care physician and maybe our healthcare system is out of whack.

We need a single payer system, with access to care for all Americans.
c wilmot

climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 02:20pm PT

Jun 22, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Maybe because they get in faster, they can't get a primary care physician and maybe our healthcare system is out of whack.

We need a single payer system, with access to care for all Americans.

I agree.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 22, 2017 - 04:30pm PT
Arnold Ragas
July 14, 2016 ·
Sometimes my black life matters.

It mattered the day I was walking to my car at Lenox when I was ordered inside a police car until I sufficiently explained my purpose for being in the deck. My keys in hand provided no clue. It mattered the very next time I was in the deck and again ordered inside a police car until I again sufficiently explained my purpose.

My black life mattered the day I was helping someone move her furniture from her apartment to a moving van when several police officers pointed their guns at me until I sufficiently explained my purpose. Carrying a microwave to a moving van provided no clue.

My black life mattered the day I was looking through storefront windows and police detained me and questioned me until I sufficiently explained my purpose. It mattered further when I reached into my pocket for my wallet and they pulled their guns on me. My black life almost became matter on the pavement.

My black life mattered the day I was ordered inside a room at the DeKalb county courthouse and forced to explain my purpose. Being a lawyer wearing a suit in a courthouse provided no clue.

My black life mattered the night I was jogging in my Johns Creek subdivision when a police officer drove 5 mph and followed me for nearly a half mile until I finally and exasperatedly turned around and yelled, “What?!?!” My Nike shorts, shirt and running shoes provided no clue of my lawful presence. After all, I was running.

I never really thought of myself as a thug. I’m clean cut. Clean-shaven. No dreads. No golds. No tats. No sagging pants. Hell, I even own a pair of khakis.

But what do I know. Maybe I AM a thug. I graduated college but it took me 5 years. I graduated law school but I wasn’t top ten. I served 3 terms in the state House of Representatives but I never got more than 60% of the vote. I served 9 years as a judge but does Probate court really count? I’ve appeared on news shows as an expert on political and legal matters but my tie didn’t always quite match.

Or just maybe my skin is the sin and no accomplishment vaccine can inoculate me.

Sometimes I wish I could try on white skin. Not to keep; just to test drive for a few days. But moreso, I wish my white friends who condemn the black lives matter mantra could wear my skin. They’d probably cut the test drive short. They’d know what it feels like to be routinely viewed as a suspect instead of a person. They’d learn that black lives do indeed matter.

But oftentimes, for all the wrong reasons.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 22, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
Heck, watching videos of Trump supporters, they could not care if there was any collusion or anything suspect, and even if a smoking gun was found that Trump and/or his people knew about any possible alleged Russian involvement in the election, Trump supporters do not care.

That is the message I am getting from watching a number of Vox Pox videos of Trump supporters. They totally believe him, they totally dismiss the mainstream media, they think it is Fake News. They have bought into Trump's 'message' and his game, hook, line and sinker.

There seems to be a cult building around Donald Trump. A cult. I could be wrong, but watching interviews and Vox Pox, it just appears that some think he is the messiah. Hyperbole on my part? Not if you watch some of the videos of his supporters, they are die hard. At least, in my view, and I could be wrong.

But I do not think I am. It seems that some worship him. That he is the savior. That is what I see.

And Trump is loving it, the attention, the idolatry. He is soaking it up and it is giving him new "strength", emboldened. He appears to not know humility, which every great leader needs to show from time to time.

He seems to feel impervious to what he has caused to further divisions. He seems to think he is invulnerable, perhaps even above the law. In my view, it is worrisome.

Troubling that any one individual can be so authoritarian in his thinking. I am not trying to be a partisan, if any other person, regardless of their political affiliation, was behaving this way, I'd be concerned.

The guy feels he can do no wrong. And many of his supporters think the same.

It is scary when anybody can say, even tongue in cheek, that he could shoot somebody on the street and his supporters would not care.

And that is just one of a number of troubling statements, pronouncements and tweets by him. I certainly have underestimated him. He is dumb in some ways, but smart in other ways.

To iterate, to his die-hard supporters, he can do no wrong. Can anybody think of such a scenario in the past in American politics and society. JFK? I do not think so. FDR? No. Ike? No. Any previous POTUS in the past century?

What road are we headed down?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 22, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
Trump is a con man. He knows his followers desires and weaknesses, and will play them until it is too late for them to understand they have been had.

He has no compassion and no self awareness. Only the constant need for validation and hero worship. The worst kind of leader.

But no one is providing a viable alternative, so they dance with the devil they know.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 22, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
And it is laughable, the way that Mr Trump tries to justify some of his cabinet choices. Draining the swamp? With some of the very people from the same institutions that Clinton (I am NOT a fan of hers, never was) had been lambasted for being involved in.

And then to add that some of his cabinet choices “gave up a lot” to serve in his administration. Does Trump take us for fools? Apparently so.

All of the cabinet choices are multimillionaires or more. What did they give up? If full disclosure is the order of the day, let us see what golden handshakes were given to some of them, or stock options, or the promise of a board seat or such when their tenure in government was over.

Yet, enough of his die-hard supporters will swallow his guff.

What happened to critical thinking?

As I see on this forum, most posters, regardless of their views, do think. Some are in the echo chamber (don’t you love that term), some are preaching to the faithful, some are misguided or confused by statistics (lies, damned lies and statistics), some are misinformed, but it seems to me, with some exceptions, that most Supertopians do think. Or try to at least.

Can the same be said for many Americans? And I also have to laugh at some of the posters at Trump rallies. “America supports you President Trump.”

But that is sort of a sweeping statement with a broad brush. Correct me if I am wrong, but Trump did not win the majority vote. So it really should be, “Some of America supports you Mr Trump.”

To iterate, what happened to critical thinking?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 22, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
He has no compassion and no self awareness. Only the constant need for validation and hero worship. The worst kind of leader.

But no one is providing a viable alternative, so they dance with the devil they know

So true. Trump does not seem to know empathy. Why should he? He was brought up in privilege, with a mediocre education, so to speak, and has always looked to step on the little guy (look at all the lawsuits and stiffed contractors, sub-contractors, etc, it is on record, so please Trumpites, do not ask me for references or proof, it is easy enough to find for yourself).

What Trump cannot hide from the vigilant eye and mind, is his past. It is there to see. And in my opinion, it does not make nice reading.

Cannot the nation, the two parties, the people, find better candidates?

Looking at Trump as objectively as I can, and I do try my best to be objective, though I admit I do not like the man (obvious, isn't it), but I try to see past my bias and subjectivity, he is a classic sociopath. I wish I could say the leader of our great nation is not a nutter, but he sure comes across as one.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 22, 2017 - 07:02pm PT

Read some of David Kay Johnston's books about Trump.
He's been following the jerk for years, and has exposed lots about
the bum.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
Remember, back in the 90s, trump said that if he ran for president he would run as a republican, because "they are the dumbest people around". In other words, trump could go up to s supporter, make a derogatory remark about their mother, and they would still support him.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 22, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
Trump did not say that, it is a urban myth

snopes debunked the validity of his saying that, check it out

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=trump+said+that+if+he+ran+for+president+he+would+run+as+a+republican,+because+%22they+are+the+dumbest+people+around%22.&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 22, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
http://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/johnny-depp-jokes-about-assassinating-trump/ar-BBD3Kk2?li=BBnb7Kz

Sometimes celebrities are their own worst enemy.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 23, 2017 - 03:10am PT
I agree John, Depp is an idiot. Statements like Depp's do not help the situation, just worsen it.

And Norton is correct, Trump never said that about Republican voters, but I cannot help but wonder if he feels that way. You know, like, "A sucker born every minute, and they vote for me". Not that all the people who voted for Trump are suckers.

He said he doesn't want a "poor" person running the economy, but somebody who is wealthy who knows money and economics. I can see the rationale in that somewhat, to a point, and only to a point. But the ones he has chosen leave some questions to be answered, a lot to be desired.

I know I am not offering any solutions to the nation's ills and problems. I realize that I am mainly dissing Trump. But as far as I can see it, if his policies are enacted, some may be band-aid fixes, but many will possibly create more problems down the road, for the environment, for banking and finance, for healthcare, for society. Are any possible short-term fixes worth it if they will turn into long-term problems?

To me, Trump is a problem, as well as many in both political parties. I have no answers, just my opinion and some facts as well.


EDIT

And to add, I saw a photo of people at a Trump Rally, one gal had a sign "Promises Made, Promises Kept". Please could somebody enlighten me, what campaign promises or other promises has Trump kept? So many of his supporters actually believe his crap. Naive comes to mind.

And people who moan about political threads on the Taco Stand, well don't click into them. I have sat around enough campfires in C4 to know that a lot more than climbing is talked about. It is a Climber's Forum, not necessarily a climbing forum only. Threads on flowers, rattlers, clouds, places, and all I think are great. I definitely stay off the religious threads.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 23, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
Liar, liar, liar.

The definitive list of trump lies:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 23, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 23, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
Jonny Depp needs his momma to teach him how to dress...

Yeah, but he was great in What's Eating Gilbert Grape
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 23, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
Trump did not say that, it is a urban myth


He did too say that!


Just because your sources say that he didn't, my sources say...

ALTERNATIVE FACTS!!!


jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 24, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/people-still-dont-like-hillary-clinton/ar-BBD0u9G

Her approval ratings would go up if only she would retire gracefully and quietly.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 24, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
Yeah, why about the country when there's approval ratings to worry about?

Hillary, keep doing what you're doing. You're an important voice as we look to rid our nation of the stench of Republican control.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 24, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
but DiCapprio "stole it" as the challenged brother...

He did, that's still his best work, IMO.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 24, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
You're an important voice as we look to rid our nation of the stench of Republican control.

Please, oh please do keep believing that!

Seriously! As long as the left sees HRC as an "important voice," it ensures its continued failure.

Sadly, the Rebumblecons are NO BETTER! They were voted in on the basis of some significant promises, among them, REPEAL Obamacare. REPEAL, not "tinker with." ALL they are accomplishing now is to piss EVERYBODY off, Dems and Repubs alike. LOL

Why don't they NOW simply PASS the exact same REPEAL bills that they floated past Obama's desk KNOWING that he'd never sign them???

It's because they never wanted to actually REPEAL Obamacare, which is now flatly established by their unwillingness to do so now that they could. It was all lies and posturing and more finger-to-the-wind politics. No surprise at all.

As has repeatedly been said by the left-wingers here: The Republicans have NO idea how to govern. I'll give the Dems more credit in that regard: The SECOND they had total power, as the Rebumblecons have now, they PASSED Obamacare. By stark contrast, the Rebumblecons are unwilling to do the VERY thing they promised to do, what in large part got them elected to comparable total power, and the absence of which will later get them thrown out.

And, thus, the cycle of stupidity continues, and the two parties continue to jerk us around and around.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 24, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
The white men of the right have spoken. Be quiet, Hillary.

These geniuses gave us the Buffoon-in-Chief, keeeping coal minors on the job.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 24, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
Two mistakes:

The white men of the right have spoken. Be quiet, Hillary.

I'm not "on the right." And you entirely mistook my statement, because I sincerely WANT HRC to keep on "talking" and you guys on the left to keep on considering it relevant.

BTW, what does "white" have to do with it? You racist.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 24, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
But Trump said he would replace Obamacare with something better , more affordable...? Well , i guess you can't believe everything Trump says...Whatever...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 24, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
There are plenty of ways to fix the healthcare crisis...Pay the working class a wage that affords them access to healthcare insurance... Oh the horror...
Norton

Social climber
Jun 24, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
how did we get up to 200 trillion dollar debt so fast? Seems about 10 times too high

say, what are the consequences of the US national debt anyway? high interest rates?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 24, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
I liked him in Ed Wood.

Pelosi & Clinton, shining stars in the political sky.



;>(
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 25, 2017 - 06:37am PT
jgill, maybe you can try defending your party's shining proposal, Trumpcare; the one that allows 24 million Americans to be thrown off of the health insurance they currently have in order to give over $500 billion in tax breaks to the wealthy, insurance companies, drug companies, and other multi-national corporations.

We already know what you conservative men think about Hillary and Pelosi, women who don't know their place.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 25, 2017 - 07:00am PT
what are the consequences of the US national debt anyway? high interest rates?

Obviously not if you've checked lately. That, of course, could change were inflation to explode but in the current economic climate the reverse is more of a concern and likely to remain so. Japan has had this problem going on 20 years now. $200 trillion ain't chump change but it isn't as bad as it appears to the casual observer.

Of more concern are pension obligations, particularly for the states, counties, and cities.
Can you say Illinois and Puerto Rico? People get inordinately worked up over national
affairs but state and local political mismanagement are far more likely to affect them, often
in unforeseen ways.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 25, 2017 - 07:08am PT
Well, do point out where I erred, economically that is.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 25, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Hurray for the white men!!
monolith

climber
state of being
Jun 25, 2017 - 07:53am PT
Reilly, Norton was trolling. He very well knows that our national debt is not causing high interest rates.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 25, 2017 - 08:26am PT
'Cool story bro': Twitter mocks Trump's proud claim that his approval ratings are higher than Obama's


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cool-story-bro-twitter-mocks-trumps-proud-claim-that-his-approval-ratings-are-higher-obamas-1626859
dirtbag

climber
Jun 25, 2017 - 10:13am PT
This is why this awful tax cut, disguised as a healthcare" bill, might pass, even though most people hate it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-kabuki-theater-of-the-ahca/531537/


Remember, the republicans will let millions go uninsured, with disastrous consequences, just so they can pass f*#king tax cuts for the wealthy.

Call your senators now.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 25, 2017 - 10:24am PT
The national debt is not 200 trillion

It is 20 trillion

And yes, interest rates are at historic lows

Yes, I was trolling but not at Mr Reilly
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 25, 2017 - 10:42am PT
McConnell is a sleazy corporate pimp representing the interest of the influential 1% while abandoning the rest of America... The republican controlled congress has become a death panel , the same panel they warned voters about when Obamacare was being crafted.. No skin off Mitch's nose...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 25, 2017 - 10:56am PT
What I find worrying is the level of hatred and intolerance being shown in society, and not just recently.

Especially with some politicians and celebrities. Ted Nugent saying Obama could suck on his gun, Madonna saying she’d like to blow up the White House, Johnny Depp’s recent faux pas, Griffin’s idiotic seemingly ISIS-inspired “art”.

And Trump is now saying to tone down the violence. Wait a minute, wasn’t this Trump the same guy who said he could shoot somebody in the street and his supporters would not care? The same candidate who encouraged people to attack, hit and kick out hecklers at his rallies.

Talk about a messiah complex, Trump exhibits all the signs of one (“I’ll be the best president ever”), like, he is going to save America, but who is going to save him?

As far as the Democrats go, I never particularly cared for Maureen Dowd’s writings or views but this is an interesting op-ed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-jon-ossoff-democrats.html?rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=Multimedia
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 25, 2017 - 11:03am PT
Might want to check out this forecast. #11 not looking so good for our healthcare or anything else.. http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 25, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/people-still-dont-like-hillary-clinton/ar-BBD0u9G

Her approval ratings would go up if only she would retire gracefully and quietly.

So would yours.

But I'll bet you'd be screaming about free speech. And the bigger picture: What does it matter what her approval is, she's not running for anything, and neither are you.

However, OVER half of the electorate cares what she thinks, and should, because of her experience.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 25, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
This leaves ObamaCare left to fail on it's own, it was doomed to fail and any suggestion of single payer is fantasy, a socialists fantasy.


So all the Senior Americans on Medicare, like John Gill, are socialists?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:22am PT
“The real story is that President Obama did NOTHING after being informed in August about Russian meddling. With 4 months looking at Russia ... under a magnifying glass, they have zero ‘tapes’ of T people colluding. There is no collusion & no obstruction. I should be given apology!” he added.

OK, I'm sorry you're a mental defective.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:28am PT
There are plenty of ways to fix the healthcare crisis...Pay the working class a wage that affords them access to healthcare insurance... Oh the horror...

We're not falling for your communist propaganda. Nice try, though.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
CBO: 22 million Americans will become uninsured under this bill, so that wealthy Americans can have a tax cut.

Call your senators now.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 26, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
You only need to call your senators if you live in Maine, Alaska, Nevada, Wisconsin, Utah, Texas or Kentucky (that's about it). KY and TX (Cruz and Rand Paul) as well as WI and UT are opposing it because it doesn't go far enough, but a no vote is no vote.

For all the Supertopoians living in CA, calling would be pretty pointless.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
I would say call anyway, but especially if you are not in cali. It takes 3 minutes to call.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 26, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
While you are at it, drop Trump a line and ask him not to sign such a meanie piece of legislation.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 26, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
22 million lose healthcare and premiums go up. I see no reason the GOP base will oppose this. They love voting against their and the country's best interest.
WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
What about the millions of people you terrorized and made homeless, maimed and destroyed their lives in Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, Libya etc etc etc
due to your sick stoopid American policy of overthrowing govt's that didn't toe the line with your stoopid corporate American imperialism all over the planet.

Where's their health care that you were responsible as a democracy that let your Govt destroyed their countries and their lives and health?

You selfish hypocrite Americans.

Me me me me me and fuk everyone else is all you know .......
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
Somehow, it's not "picking my pockets" when I'm told that my money is going to be "redistributed" to the "needy," and I should feel good about this outright theft, because it's my "duty" as a good, kind-hearted American.

But when that theft is simply stopped, then the left cries that government is "picking our pockets" and that anybody not happy about this stoppage of theft is a "bad, bad person."

Prior to Obumblecare, millions didn't have health insurance. Obumblecare (passing SCOTUS review as the very "tax on the middle class" that Obama promised would NEVER happen on his watch), "insured" millions of them. (Not all of them, and a $6,000+ per-year deductible is NOT insurance.) So, a NEW "tax" was imposed on the middle class. The insurance companies were granted a captive audience AND were granted a safety net should profits fall due to the pre-existing conditions problem. And premiums skyrocketed anyway! That's what you get when you hand the public to the insurance companies on a silver platter.

Now the Rebumblecons are trying (lamely) to "reset the clock" regarding the millions that were granted the "right" to tap into other people's pockets like never before. And the left moans what a "rip-off" this is.

The funniest part of this to me is watching the absolute frothing at the mouth from the left when the SAME game they played is now played on them. Obumblecare passed without a single Repub vote. Its partial repeal will probably pass with (amazingly) some Dem votes; and if not, it will be a classic case of tit-for-tat, as the Repubs get it done entirely on their own.

You play partisan hardball, and when the other team gets up to bat, you're GOING to drink your own medicine. So, now, calm down, drink deeply, and believe that it's going to be good for you, just as you lefties assured all of us as you CRAMMED Obumblecare down our throats.

Maybe in the future, you'll advocate cross-party compromise and consensus.

Probably not.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
Democrats spent a year holding open hearings trying to get republicans to cooperate in passing what is essentially a conservative health plan. How many open hearings have republicans held on this?

All of this is being done so a few wealthy people can get their damned tax cuts. This is right wing social engineering at its finest.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
Spending my money on defense is a much wiser choice.



I'm quaking in my boots (well flip flops) that some alien devil is Gonna come and take all my stuff rather than Haliburton's.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
My father (ret. Navy pilot) used to say something similar:

Dad: Any time someone is waving a flag in your face you should immediately check to see if your wallet is still there...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
All of this is being done so a few wealthy people can get their damned tax cuts. This is right wing social engineering at its finest.

Okay, but Obumblecare was social engineering at its worst.

Spending my money on defense is a much wiser choice.

Well, actually it is. At least it's something the federal government actually IS supposed to provide in exchange for taxes. At least it's something where I get the actual benefit I'm paying for with my taxes, instead of just handing my money directly to some other individual in exchange for exactly NO personal benefit. And, at least it's something that can be cut to reasonable levels without having to go to the SCOTUS to play pretend with the stupid American people, like, "You know, really this is a 'tax,' even though we initially assured everybody it wasn't. But, you know, if it needs to be called a 'tax,' then, okay, it's a 'tax.' Wink-wink, nudge-nudge."

What a steaming pile of snakesh|t.

The SECOND the tables turn on you Dems, and you're forced to take your medicine (which YOU defined, btw, in this case), you're moaning and sniveling like the sky is falling.

Get over it. You wanted partisan hardball, and now it's being played right back at you.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
Yes, having millions more people being able to afford health coverage has been a horrible experience.

Get over it. You wanted partisan hardball, and now it's being played right back at you.

Wrong, for the reasons explained a few posts above.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
You wanted partisan hardball...

Actually, Obama squandered a great deal of his opportunity for change attempting to talk and negotiate with republicans - a complete waste of time given they are incapable of governing. The only thing the republicans have shown themselves capable of is obstruction, pillaging and deconstruction.

They have done and will do nothing to improve the lives of working people.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
Providing healthcare to the poor is pickpocketing? What kind of a sick person are you?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
So apparently some folks other than Halliburton have a lot of stuff that needs a lot of money being spent to hire Haliburton to protect it.

Can't they just summon up the militia and their peeper shooters?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
Yes, having millions more people being able to afford health coverage has been a horrible experience.

Actually, it has been a much more horrible experience for a LOT more people than were supposedly "insured" by the lame-azz "coverage" that was "provided" by Obumblecare.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
Providing healthcare to the poor is pickpocketing? What kind of a sick person are you?

I'm one of those "sickos" who thinks that this nation was founded on the idea of (among other things) protecting property rights. Taxation for the FEW government duties stated in the constitution is one thing. But extracting money from working people's pockets to do NOTHING but hand it directly to other people is theft. Nothing more "lofty" than that.

You guys decry certain sorts of theft, but you LOVE other kinds of theft. You just want to be in control over exactly who gets stolen from, how much, and who gets the stolen money.

I'm the only consistent one among you, because I hate ALL forms of theft and would love to see a party emerge that would put an end to ALL of it.

But, the "other team" is at bat now, and you're sucking hind tit. You know, tit-for-tat. Partisanship BITES!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
^^^ "To which everyone contributed regularly...."

Yeah, right. The cartoon really means: "To which everyone was forced to contribute, even when it was a net loss to them personally, just so that other people could thereby gain non-coverage cast as coverage."

The left believes firmly in equality of OUTCOME. But that's ridiculous on the face of it, because NATURE says that we don't all have equal potential. So, you have to totally invent what "leveling the playing field means." You MUST change it from "equal opportunity" to "equal outcome," but that REALLY means, "Get everybody fixed at the lowest common denominator."

Good luck with that.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
There. I'm done for awhile.

I'll drop in now and then to see if the echo chamber still has a full head of steam. So far, that's been assured. LOL

By the time I drop back in sometime in the future, your lame responses will be ancient history. Hehe

Poor, poor lefties, when the shoe is on the other foot.

Partisanship BITES. Someday, maybe you'll get over it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
Hasn't most of your career been in public education of some sort - either working in or selling to?
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 26, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
Hey Nutagain, hope all is well and you're getting some!!!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
Madbolter is all emotion and hate, nothing in his wildly lame rants was rational in any way...

Have you seen such disdain for anything?
He hopes people lose HC.

He is his own echo chamber of the Stoopid American.
He voted for Trump!!!
He loves what he is doing!!!
Which is not what he said he would do.

Christain??
not in my book, more of an idiot dupe for selfish GREED

Democrats provide Affordable HC, Republicans take it away
That is the simple take home message of the Republican HC plan.

Just returning the insults he used on me on so many posts of his,
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
Mb1, there is an old anecdote that states(and I am paraphrasing) it's better to keep one's thoughts to themselve's, and let people think that you don't know what you are talking about, than to express said thoughts, and remove any doubt.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:12pm PT

Actually, it has been a much more horrible experience for a LOT more people than were supposedly "insured" by the lame-azz "coverage" that was "provided" by Obumblecare.


Lame? How?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
If MB had any understanding of how our Gov. works, he would not embarrass himself so bigly.

ObamaCare could have been fixed at any time over the last 7 years, But the Republicans blocked anything and everything that could lower costs.

If we had a Democratic Senate, House, President, and Supreme Court
and not any bought off Dems, then we would get single Payer
and the idiot would get to pay less like the rest of us 300 million Americans

But No!, we need to pay more to make sure the Koch syndicate of billionaires get their tax cuts which make MB so happy!!
Why?
so he can stick it to the libs....
what kind of human hopes that others suffer?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:31pm PT
Whiners, and particularly Trump who could afford to wine and dine when not defending America over in Vietnam Nam, just got ta whine.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:31pm PT
"There. I'm done for awhile.

I'll drop in now and then to see if the echo chamber still has a full head of steam. So far, that's been assured. LOL

By the time I drop back in sometime in the future, your lame responses will be ancient history. Hehe"


Biggest drama queen on ST. You always are leaving but you never leave.


"I'm one of those "sickos" who thinks that this nation was founded on the idea of (among other things) protecting property rights.'

You might want to ask native Americans who property rights the founding fathers were protecting.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
And the whiner is?

Gimme back my slaves, they be after all my property, right.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
Mb1, there is an old anecdote that states(and I am paraphrasing) it's better to keep one's thoughts to themselve's, and let people think that you don't know what you are talking about, than to express said thoughts, and remove any doubt.

there is a nice, tidy, and short ACA summary to read for those too lazy to read the entire bill

but that would take a little effort, forget that, much easier to blow ignorant hot air, eh Honey boo boo?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
"To which everyone contributed regularly...."
It's called taxes you moron, not "leveling the playing field."


You MUST change it from "equal opportunity" to "equal outcome," but that REALLY means, "Get everybody fixed at the lowest common denominator."
completely moronic

everybody pays taxes for military and healthcare for all
Is that so hard to understand?

it has nothing to do with equal outcome
the fear of equality must give MB nightmares

The privileged few can have HC, the rest get nothing from our Gov. that promised "To Provide for the General Welfare of all Americans"
Can't affords it, please don't ask for a handout to keep you alive.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 26, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
MB1= Lois=Troll
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:06pm PT
Somehow, it's not "picking my pockets" when I'm told that my money is going to be "redistributed" to the "needy," and I should feel good about this outright theft, because it's my "duty" as a good, kind-hearted American.



and a $6,000+ per-year deductible is NOT insurance.)


But you are OVERWHELMINGLY HAPPY when your pockets are going to picked to be "redistributed" to the WEALTHY? Where is that duty enumerated?? You seem to prefer serfdom.

And a $6,000 per year deductible is insurance. When I had my catastrophic illness about a year back, I was in the hospital for a month, and they opened up my heart. Long series of problems.

The bill was approximately $650,000.

The cost to me was $6,000. That is exactly what insurance does.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
I'm one of those "sickos" who thinks that this nation was founded on the idea of (among other things) protecting property rights. Taxation for the FEW government duties stated in the constitution is one thing. But extracting money from working people's pockets to do NOTHING but hand it directly to other people is theft. Nothing more "lofty" than that.


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States.......

The Preamble to the Constitution is an introductory, succinct statement of the principles at work in the full text. It is referred to in countless speeches, judicial opinions

So, MB, you just want to throw out the parts of the Constitution you don't like, after screaming that we should follow the established method of amending it.

Which is it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
MB 1... Where are you off to...? Helping build Trump's wall...? of text..?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
CBO: defunding Planned Parenthood would result in thousands more unplanned pregnancies

The GOP’s Better Care Reconciliation Act will make it more difficult for women to access birth control and family planning services.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/26/15877210/cbo-defunding-planned-parenthood-unplanned-pregnancies

1000s of more pregnancies that the mothers can't afford; so more welfare, more poor, more mouths to feed, more strain on the resources, more suffering, more food stamps, more Healthcare costs, more crime,

who wins?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 26, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
The founding fathers knew the dangers of a standing army and it's cost.


http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2013/07/why-founding-fathers-would-object-todays-military/66668/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
Guess it's hard to avoid drifting into healthcare when it is the national policy of most significance in our society.

Who is calculating the societal costs of not giving basic healthcare service to every person in our country? What about:
 crimes of desperation and poverty
 homeless encampments
 delayed diagnoses that result in more fatalities
 lost vaccinations and spread of contagious diseases

Even the rich folks pay for these in terms of law enforcement, jails and prisons, higher healthcare costs, the re-emergence of previously eradicated diseases, unsightly trash in the streets, etc.

If the idea is that people need to be able to pay for healthcare or suffer death... then we should look more deeply at why some people are more able to pay for it than others. Sure we have a lot of lazy slackers in our society. But that is an overly-simplistic and dismissive approach that ignores real problems and unequal treatment between people in our society.

It is easy to look at what things that poor people have not done to make their lives better, to blame them for their own problems. It is easy to project ourselves and our experiences into other people's shoes, but it is not easy to see the world through their eyes, to be burdened with whatever baggage and experience they have, to see what options appear possible to another person. If you take a person you look down on and imagine them raised as your brother or sister with the same family experiences you had, they would be living a different life, probably not unlike your own. We can talk separately about how to raise people out of subcultures of endemic poverty, how to combat laziness/hopelessness/indifference and how to block government program loopholes that reward negative behavior... but it seems unacceptable to me to pass judgment and death sentences on people because they didn't have the good fortune to be born into a family that prioritizes income generation and wealth accumulation.

Many people just don't learn how to lead effective productive lives that contribute to society. They don't see examples of it, they don't see the benefits of it, and there are big prejudices and obstacles against them apart from whatever day-to-day challenges they experience that I am fortunately not familiar with. Waiting at bus stops, missing connections, getting clean appropriate clothing for job interviews, prioritizing education or completing work day after day when many external stimuli show that to be stupid in the face of alternatives. Being distracted worrying about their kids on the street with bad influences while trying to make money to keep a roof over the family, keep the lights on and food in the refrigerator. The question is, should we structure our society to teach and encourage these people to be contributing members of society (if they are not already doing so in an oppressive system where their efforts are not compensated sufficiently to pay for healthcare), or should we punish and shame them for not having the advantages that we had? It boils down to a punishing or teaching life philosophy. The carrot or the stick. We have a lot of people who believe in sink-or-swim, fly-or-die, less-carrot-more-stick life philosophies.

There is a role for struggling, tough love, and facing real consequences. I do believe in these things and they were a big part of my childhood- I'm not a complete bleeding heart liberal. These things form the crucible in which character is formed, where learning takes place. But is denial of healthcare one of those carrots to be withheld? That is like a parent starving a child for not sweeping the floor properly. I'm sure someone reading this has experienced a childhood like that. In case you haven't faced the reality of it yet- that is abusive and it does NOT make you a better person. It is just what you had to endure and the whole "made me a better person" bit is what you tell yourself to not feel the grief of an unlucky childhood. You have a choice of repeating that abuse toward your children or rising above it and learning a better way. The same thing when it comes to deciding how we should structure our society.

Rather than projecting abusive parenting strategies onto our entire society, we should look at what has worked best to educate children and project a model like that. We need to have consequences for not following rules, we need to have boundaries, but we also need to have a safety net (death is too late for a teachable moment) and we need to give room for screwing up and repetition of lessons until the kids get it. How can we structure society that would encourage people to keep trying to be self-sufficient and contribute to others, while also providing a safety net? We don't want our children to live by the law of the jungle (the weak die), but why do we want our fellow members of society to live by that? For the Christians among you nay-sayers, where is the compassion and empathy that are the defining characters of Jesus Christ?



All this is part of the larger discussion of how to address poverty and crime and deal with people who are not positively contributing to our society. There will ALWAYS be "deadbeats" and I prefer to create a model that allows for some resource wastage (like a grocery store accounts for shoplifting) rather than change the rules to eliminate the waste while also losing the societal benefits that would make the world a better place for us all to live- whether we are personally directly receiving specific benefits and services or not.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
MB1= Lois=Troll

doubtful....takes an mature craftiness to be good troll, MB1 has neither

doubtful....Lois had a real world intelligence about her, misguided and wrong, but intelligent

at least she was old enough to have overcome the inadequacies of academic arrogance
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Jun 26, 2017 - 08:35pm PT
Madbolter's semantics seem to align with any sort of rich fuk whom inherited money and goes around telling the rest how great they are and how everyone should be so smart like them etc.....essence of fat tard, and unfortunately our POTUS. Have a friend whom got the golden key to life , paid everything whom constantly criticizes the poor class for not making the right life moves like he did. Sometimes it's easier to eat rice and beans when you know you can eat filet mignon whenever you want. Regardless Madbolter has an opinion and he's entitled to it. Doesn't mean you don't have to think he/she/it is a gigantous piece of sh#t whom you wouldn't trade places with in life for all the $$$ in the world either. Have at it selfish prick.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 26, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
Wealth is built upon shoulders of midgets...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
Here is a voice of experience and (in my opinion) wisdom that is worth listening to:
https://theintercept.com/2017/06/25/ralph-nader-the-democrats-are-unable-to-defend-the-u-s-from-the-most-vicious-republican-party-in-history/

He makes some very insightful points and observations about the history and roots of problems in the Democratic party. While this does call out the party, it is specifically in the context of their shifting focus away from policy-driven discussions and how/why that happened. It also points to the path back toward policy-based platforms.

TLDR: corporate money gets in the way of running a winning policy-based campaign. Also, need more turn-over in leadership when old leaders aren't delivering (whether in elected offices or in labor unions).
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
Sorry, but after 2000, Nader can go crap in his pants.
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Jun 26, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
Honestly I'm not sure why this number isn't 25 % or below but fundamentalism is alive and well in the world right now. It's dog eat dog as it has always been
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Jun 26, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
Case in point
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:19am PT
Witch-like crowing at climbers over forum post grammar? A Sisyphean task at best. Who banished you to ST in the first place and for what malefaction? Probably should get after them about flossing as well.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:27am PT
Maybe in the future, you'll advocate cross-party compromise and consensus.

Like the Republicans have? In Obama's tenure? Bullshit Madbolter. Trump complains about the Democrats. Look, just effing look, at the eight years when Obama was POTUS, did the Republicans bother to think about consensus? Even when Clinton was POTUS, did the Republicans think about consensus?

As far as I can tell, they thought about demolition. If it is a Democrat idea, it needs to be shot down.

I am not saying it is a one-way street. There have been times when the Democrats have been obstinate, but never like the Republicans. Not that I can recall.

I will go out on a limb and say that in the past 40 or so years (or more) the Democrats have been better at crossing the aisle and trying to find consensus than many Republicans.

Can you spell corporatocracy? I always have to look it up. I think it is ruse to confuse us. I think a simpler spelling and definition would be GREED.

And Werner, give it up. We know this is an echo chamber but you are a broken record. I do think that most Supertopians know about the forays into other nations by the US. It is not a proud history. But from what I can read, all you can do is diss Americans. Are you not a naturalized American?

Did you not feed off the tit of the taxpayer in YOSAR (and a mighty fine job you did in YOSAR, make no mistakes, I admire you for that).

And Werner, can you spell corporatocracy? Without having to look it up?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:42am PT
doubtful....Lois had a real world intelligence about her, misguided and wrong, but intelligent

Norton, for all her faults, and we all have faults, Lois did have sincerity. I know, I communicated with her a number of times about certain matters. I certainly did not align with her politics but she was not a troll, not a climber, and why on a climber's forum, I wondered. I asked her. She happened upon Supertopo and thought we were intelligent people.

Gosh did we fool her.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:51am PT
Beerlyman/ Eliza Doolittle, the correct use of "whom" costs nothing. Give it a try. Sincerely, Peofessor Higgins.

Joe and Beerlyman, I wouldn't worry about Sycopfax (sic, well not really sic, but just sick). If the poster cannot spell professor correctly, it just shows the level of intelligence (though typos are allowed), and a quick look at his/her posts shows very little in the way of climbing.

Heck at least I can say I bailed on the Salathé Wall.

And climbed with Charlie Porter. An adventure in itself.


EDIT

And now, thinking about it (yes, I do think once in a while), some posters try to call out us "old farts". What is an old fart? I always thought every fart was new, depending on one's diet and recent meal.

Ah, nothing like a dog fart though. Open air is best, closed rooms are worse. A dog farting by the campfire is okay.

I digress, I am good at that. I would hope that many of us old farts know how to tie knots properly. I can still lead 5.11, may struggle a bit, and pull on gear. What! Pull on gear!?! Yeah, well, the temptation is there.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 27, 2017 - 06:29am PT
His supporters love these kind of statistics. To them it's confirmation he's putting "America First".
Crazy.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 27, 2017 - 07:05am PT
But you are OVERWHELMINGLY HAPPY when your pockets are going to picked to be "redistributed" to the WEALTHY? Where is that duty enumerated?? You seem to prefer serfdom.

Good point, Ken. One which MB1 seems to miss. There is massive wealth redistribution going on in this country. It goes in the opposite direction from what Madbolter thinks, however. It's called capitalism, the concentration of wealth into the hands of a few.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html
WBraun

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 07:13am PT
“but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

No, they are not winning but ultimately losing.

Everything depends on the whole.

The morons are like saying my brain is smarter than my feet so I neglect my feet and feed only my brain until the feet become defective.

Then the stoopid brain when it's too late realizes it actually needs the feet in order to survive.

This how Americans have become stoopid and how the brainwashed leaders of America think now.

Only about themselves, selfish aszholes ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 27, 2017 - 07:19am PT
My feet, and legs, thank my brain for looking out for them...

WBraun

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 07:23am PT
Yes LOL

The intelligent class takes care of everyone and doesn't neglect the lower class unlike these modern self-righteous aszhole leaders .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2017 - 07:29am PT
It's called capitalism...

But what we are seeing now isn't late 20th century, post-WWII capitalism. No, this is a tech version of late 19th century / early 20th century robber baron capitalism. It's like we learned nothing at all from that era.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:18am PT
No, they are not winning but ultimately losing.

Of course, but Buffett was speaking only in a materialistic sense.

But what we are seeing now isn't late 20th century, post-WWII capitalism.

They said back in the '70s that they intended to undo the New Deal, and that's what they've done.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:55am PT
dirtbag

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 09:07am PT
^^^Damn--did the cartoonist who created that strip read this thread first?^^^
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 27, 2017 - 11:09am PT

The GOP’s Better Care Reconciliation Act will make it more difficult for women to access birth control and family planning services.


1000s of more pregnancies that the mothers can't afford; so more welfare, more poor, more mouths to feed, more strain on the resources, more suffering, more food stamps, more Healthcare costs, more crime,

who wins?

White Christian men, who have successfully kept those women barefoot and pregnant.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 11:15am PT
Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell has just delayed, stopped, the scheduled vote to pass his party's version of healthcare.

Not enough votes to pass it in the Senate.

The CBO score shook up a lot of Republican Senators, 25 million losing their healthcare

In addition to the CBO saying the premiums will go up and not down as promised.

Meanwhile over in the Republican controlled House, the 40 member Freedom Caucus says they will not vote for the Senate bill either, leaving it DOA in the House.

This is terrible, after eight years of raising money and promising on bibles that on day one they will repeal Obamacare it now is very likely they are not going to do it.

John Boehner called this months ago when he said his Republicans will not repeal the ACA.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 27, 2017 - 11:29am PT

There is a role for struggling, tough love, and facing real consequences.

Half of the population carries an IQ that is below the average.

The earliest terms for classifying individuals of low intelligence were medical or legal terms that preceded the development of IQ testing.[7][8] The legal system recognized a concept of some individuals being so cognitively impaired that they were not responsible for criminal behavior. Medical doctors sometimes encountered adult patients who could not live independently, being unable to take care of their own daily living needs.

In every society, there are numerous such people. What differs is how they are dealt with, left on the streets? Used as cannon fodder?

It is easy to throw out the helpless and incapable, and confuse them with the merely lazy.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 27, 2017 - 11:42am PT
LOL... I haven't read any of your rants over the past day, but I just came across this and thought y'all would enjoy having something new to meltdown over.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 11:54am PT
LOL... I haven't read any of your rants over the past day

Most of us don't read your WOBS.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
No, they are not winning but ultimately losing.

Couldn't agree more.
When you do not worship the almighty $$ you get it.
When you can hear, feel and see life, you get it.
This is where for the most part, Americans are stupid.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
Billionaires are setting up fiefdoms all over the world, with Trump leading the charge in America. The right wing fringe is falling all over themselves to be ruled by their new overlords. They want to return to a simpler time where the person with all the money tells them what to do, and what is right and wrong.

America was created by people who were sick and tired of that sh*t. Oh, the irony.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
If we had a functioning congress they would argue a bunch and then both parties would make some concessions to amend the ACA.

If we really wanted to fix things there would be a shift to some sort of single payer system. I'll never understand how having a massive for-profit insurance industry taking the biggest cut of health care dollars makes sense to anyone.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
I'll never understand how having a massive for-profit insurance industry taking the biggest cut of health care dollars makes sense to anyone


I agree. It's not right to make a profit off the infirm and sick. I suppose an argument for the industry is that it finances research.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
There were more democratic votes
The Dems have always had a majority

Gerrymandering, voter suppression and cross check
(and Russian voter hacking)
gave us Trump and a Republican Congress

It's rule by the Minority, like most third World Countries
WBraun

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
an argument for the industry is that it finances research.

The industry is the one making everyone sick, then the idiots in the industry takes the people's money to figure out what is making everyone sick and to find a cure all while making more poisons.

Around and around in circles these fools go chasing their tails misleading everyone only to make money.

Industrialization is what's making everyone sick.

Health care is now industrialization also.

The machine is killing the soul which then kills the material body.

This why more and more are looking towards natrual ayurvedic health.

Americans are stoopid slaves of the machine ....
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jun 27, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
raising money

Hey Ken I think you meant wasting not raising but since we know the wasted money went somewhere...who's pockets got lined with this money that was 'raised'?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:09pm PT
^^^Yep. I think there is a momentum for single payer, which didn't really exist even a few years ago. Americans now view healthcare as a right. I expect 2020 dem nomineees to openly support it.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
Yup.
WASHINGTON — Senator Elizabeth Warren now says Democrats should endorse a government-run, single-payer health insurance system for the upcoming 2018 midterm elections and beyond, after suggesting four years ago the proposal was “politically unacceptable.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/06/27/how-elizabeth-warren-turned-into-enthusiastic-supporter-single-payer-health-care/Uk8rAaRcoOIIiQWa7nDkBN/story.html
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 27, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
It really comes down to whether you think healthcare is a basic necessity, or huge opportunity for capitalism.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
WASHINGTON — Senator Elizabeth Warren now says Democrats should endorse a government-run, single-payer health insurance system...

Well, that's a monumental 'duh'...
Norton

Social climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 02:18pm PT
government-run, single-payer health insurance system...
DOA

like Medicare for all and eliminate all private insurance companies...

who give tens of millions of dollars to congress's elections campaigns

ok good for you Elizabeth Warren, next you can suggest free college for everyone
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
We are sick and profoundly stupid society.

The real problem is our media allows propaganda that dupes the right wingers to vote against their best interests.

No one is stupid enough to want our system the way it is, they were brainwashed to vote for people that are beholden to the Insurance Companies.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
The True History of Libertarianism in America: A Phony Ideology to Promote a Corporate Agenda

Before Milton Friedman was earning plaudits as an economic genius, he was a shill for the real estate industry and an early pioneer for big business propaganda known as libertarianism.

http://www.alternet.org/visions/true-history-libertarianism-america-phony-ideology-promote-corporate-agenda

The purpose of libertarianism, as it was originally created — was to supplement big business lobbying with a pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-economics rationale to back up its policy and legislative attacks on labor and government regulations.

It's all pro business propaganda, yet the greedy folks cling to it like it's their savior....
Don't steal (tax) my hard earned money that I was only able to earn because of the things that taxes paid for....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 02:52pm PT
^^^^
Dr. Shockley, the inventor of the transistor lost his reputation after publishing the same information

wiki
Shockley argued that a higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization.

Shockley also proposed that individuals with IQs below 100 be paid to undergo voluntary sterilization.[34]

Anthropologist Roger Pearson, whose writings are based on an evolutionary and racialist[35] approach, has defended Shockley in a self-published book co-authored with Shockley.[36] University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee professor Edgar G. Epps[37] argued that "William Shockley's position lends itself to racist interpretations

FA. Shockely's Ceiling
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 27, 2017 - 03:12pm PT
So if Single payer is so good, why do people from other countries, people in power, come over to the good old USA to get medical care?

All the time.

Most of you guys don't "get it" at all.

Get the federal government out of health care and we would ALL be better off.

wise up.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
So if Single payer is so good, why do people from other countries, people in power, come over to the good old USA to get medical care?

Only the RICH come here for care
Why do many Americans go to other countries for health care?

I don't think your post was very wise if you want to pay less for the same exact care,
it seems the opposite of wise to hand over your money to banksters that don't give a rats ass about your health care

The Only part of Government that is in Health Care, be it the ACA or Trump care, Or Single payer is who pays for your care
it either comes from your pay check or taxes

it costs way less if you pay for everyone through taxes
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 27, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
So if Single payer is so good, why do people from other countries, people in power, come over to the good old USA to get medical care?

Got a source for that bit of data? I'm interested.

Riddle me this, guyman, why did my old boss always go to TJ for medical and dental care?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 27, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
A bit off topic, in fact, totally off topic, but I was just watching "My Favorite Wife" (1940) with Cary Grant and Irene Dunne. Haven't seen it for yonks.

So they are in the Ahwahnee Hotel. A porter is seen carrying up some golf bags. I do not recall a golf course in the Valley. Perhaps El Cap Meadows is Hole 18, a bit tricky, like free traversing the Great Roof.

Oh Stupid Me. Of course Big Trees Golf Course, and Wawona. Why didn't I think of that.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 27, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
A friend of mine just flew to Poland to repair his knee after a mtb crash. Saved him $20k, even after travel and hospital expenses. He is rehab'ing and everything is going great.

America is not that far ahead of the rest of developed world. It is just way more expensive.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 27, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
"Guyman" do you consider the AARP a non-partisan, reliable source? I do

I do not.... they are a arm of the Democratic party.



https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/02/03/danny_millions_williams_heads_south_for_heart_surgery.htmlhttp://[/url]

[url="http://https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care"]http://https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care[/url]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
So Guyman
you don't mind paying more than any other country in the world for your crappy Health care Insurance?


No real conservative would want to pay more, it's just throwing away your hard earned money to the banksters.
They get rich, you barely get by.

and what about those that can't afford any health care Insurance, what should they do?
Norton

Social climber
Jun 27, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
I do not.... they are a arm of the Democratic party.

prove it
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 27, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
I do not.... they are a arm of the Democratic party.

You better tell that to the millions of republicans that are members.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
Get the federal government out of health care and we would ALL be better off.

Completely ass-backwards. The only way we'll ever stop being screwed up the ying-yang is to get for-profit insurance companies and states out of basic healthcare.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 27, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
to be discussed
Fake Trump Time Cover
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care.

It's definitely an exaggeration.
Most Canadians do not have money to do this.

However it's relatively common to drive/fly to US from Toronto for MRI, CT Scan, colonoscopy/gastroscopy etc. if you have some money.
I know two people: one person flew to Cleveland for MRI and another drove to Buffalo for gastroscopy.

My son has recently tried to convince me to go to Cleveland for a surgery.
According to my estimates the cost of surgery itself was reasonable, but I was concerned about unexpected cost increase in case of any complication.
I sometimes wonder whether I made a right decision not to go to Cleveland. :(

Again, best US hospitals are better than best Canadian hospitals.

As for a single payer idea, it would definitely allow you to save money by decreasing the quality of service. :(

I believe that the most sensible idea is to have single payer paying for basic services (e.g. 50% of overall health care expenses) and private or corporate insurance paying for extras like private rooms and most expensive services.
I understand that my idea would not be implemented because of lack of honest politicians willing to tell people the truth.
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
guyman wrote: So if Single payer is so good, why do people from other countries, people in power, come over to the good old USA to get medical care?

first of all, as others have pointed out, your assertion that this happens "All the time" is, relative to the number of people getting good health care in their own countries, absurd.

but, to be clear, there is no question, that if a person can pay, the US has some of the best healthcare the world over. the u.s. also has 320 million people [10x canuckistan, 5X UK, 5X France and 4X Germany] and spent 3.8 trillion dollars on health care [in 2013].

globally, the total amount spent on healthcare [in 2013] was 7.8 trillion dollars.

let that sink in.

ie. almost 50 cents of every healthcare dollar that is spent worldwide is spent in the u.s.

between the population of the u.s. and the amount that is spent, of course many many people are going to benefit from the incredible health services that the u.s. can provide to those that can pay.



flip side [just comparing the u.s. vs canada] is:

annual per capita health spending in 2013 u.s. bucks: $9086 vs $4569
life expectancy in 2015: 79.3 vs 82.2
under five child mortality rate: 6.5% vs 4.9%

ie. average americans spend twice as much per year to live on average 3 years shorter and have a 33% increased chance of dying before they are five, than their neighbors to the north.

i guess if you think, that when it comes to health, as long as a few are driving ferraris, then all those with nothing but sandals should just be happy for those with ferraris, then i guess that is one way to approach healthcare.

seems pretty strange to me, and i certainly would not be proud of spending twice as much every single year of my life to then die on average three years earlier.

but i guess whatever floats your boat.



Most of you guys don't "get it" at all.

Get the federal government out of health care and we would ALL be better off.

wise up.

you are like a flat earther, or like someone who believes that if only we could get rid of anti-monopoly laws the price of steel would go down.

you seriously think having to drive to the next hospital while cerebral fluid is dripping out your ears, so you can get the best value for a dollar is how this is going to work the best?



capitalism works fUcking ruthlessly and efficiently in many areas.

when it has a monopoly, or when a person has no choice but to use a particular service, at a particular time and place...

not so fUcking much.



this has been proved in as many cases as the earth has been proved not flat.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
nahoo...So the earth is round..?
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 27, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
^^^^

give me fifteen minutes...

i can get you a wall o' text on that as well... ;)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 27, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
waiting....
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jun 27, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
Pear shaped?
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 27, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
an explication and history of ;)

by nah000



as far as i could find during my hasty web search the first emoticon appears to have come about in 1648...

in a poem by robert herrick the following lines appear:

Tumble me down, and I will sit
Upon my ruines, (smiling yet:)

while some argue that the :) is just a typesetter's mistake, it certainly does seem, given the context, that it was likely the result of intent...



while this leap in consciousness was apparently forgotten for a few hundred years, the next emoticon to arise from the collective was the also quickly forgotten —)

no, this wasn't a blinking cyclops, but was rather the 1967 documentation of ralph eppert's aunt ev's contribution to emoticon history. the tongue planted in cheek:

Many people write letters with strong expression in them, but my Aunt Ev is the only person I know who can write a facial expression. Aunt Ev’s expression is a symbol that looks like this: —) It represents her tongue stuck in her cheek. Here’s the way she used it in her last letter: “Your Cousin Vernie is a natural blonde again —) Will Wamsley is the new superintendent over at the factory. Marge Pinkleman says they tried to get her husband to take the job —) but he told them he couldn’t accept less that $12,000 a year —)



but the first bonafide and contemporary use of both the ubiquitous :-) and :-( was by scott fahlman in 1982 [at least if we are to use wikipedia as our source]...

in his now famous, to emoticon historians, post to the carnegie mellon computer science general board he wrote:

I propose that the following character sequence for joke markers:

:-)

Read it sideways. Actually, it is probably more economical to markthings that are NOT jokes, given current trends. For this, use

:-(




as internet interaction increased the need to express emotion quickly and efficiently resulted in the plethora of emoticon we now know today...



who first used ;) or its long hand version ;-) has been lost to history. but if early web board demographics tell us anything it was likely a 37 year old white male programmer looking to more efficiently communicate with the rest of the herd at 1:23 a.m. on march 17, 1984.

from the link above we see that its meaning is the "wink"...

a non-verbal form of communication that often suggests "shared hidden knowledge or intent".



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 08:23am PT
nahoo, great response to Guyman's post
and John M's post about Gov. regulations on health care was also very poignant.


Has anyone seen this


This Trump Lawyer's Business Dealings Are as Slimy as His Most Famous Client's

A new report reveals Jay Sekulow used a Christian charity to steer more than $60 million to his family.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/trump-lawyers-business-dealings-are-slimy-his-most-famous-clients

the Christian non-profit raises tens of millions of dollars a year, much of it in small amounts from Christians who receive direct appeals for money over the telephone or in the mail. The telemarketing contracts obtained by the Guardian show how fundraisers were instructed by Sekulow to deliver bleak warnings about topics including abortion, Sharia law and Barack Obama.

“It’s time to let the president know that his vision of America is obscured and represents a dangerous threat to the Judea-Christian [sic] values that have been the cornerstone of our republic,” one script from 2015 said.

A 2013 script warned listeners that Obama’s signature healthcare law, the Affordable Care Act, promised to give Planned Parenthood federal funding to open abortion referral clinics “in your child’s or grandchild’s middle school or high school”.

Trump's lawyer is a con man just like him!
He conned poor Christians with lies and fear to send him money that went directly into his family's pocket
Truly despicable
WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2017 - 08:38am PT
You should talk!

You stoopid people are just as stoopid.

You fall for every stoopid bullsh!t media.

Russian hacked the elections and Syria gassed it's own people.

Stoopid sh!t like Bin Laden caused 911, Sadam had Weapons of Mass destruction and on and on.

You Americans are stoopid ...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 28, 2017 - 08:50am PT
you are like a flat earther, or like someone who believes that if only we could get rid of anti-monopoly laws the price of steel would go down.

you seriously think having to drive to the next hospital while cerebral fluid is dripping out your ears, so you can get the best value for a dollar is how this is going to work the best?

nah000 ..... thank you for the well thought out reply.

What if the Government doctor tells you "we don't cover cerebral fluid leaks." what then?

The bottom line for me is this: The FEDERAL government doesn't have the right to dictate to US (as in all of us) about just what "health care" we will have. It is not a duty assigned to it. We are not a Communist country, until the voters decide we want to become one. Democrats should go and put up Sanders, Warren etc for POTUS and run on a platform of single payer, tax the rich, support alt-energy and to be honest admit that 80% income tax rate on "the rich" is about the number... be honest and open about what you want.

I think only about 30% would support this.

Capitalism works- and it works in HC... when was the last time you checked out the cost of Lazar eye surgery, dental implants, breast augmentation? All are much better and much much cheaper then even 10 years ago.

This is because doctors and health care companies compete for your business.

I think this whole idea that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT must fulfill every thing that gets deemed "a right" by left leaning folks is unAmerican.

Next?

a chicken in every pot?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 28, 2017 - 08:55am PT
No, the chickens are all being rustled by trumpco and his ilk - you can't afford a chicken - nail soup for you.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 08:56am PT
So it's AMERICAN to not want our American Gov. to do anything for it's citizens?????????

That is the very definition of Anti-Patriotic or Un-American.

You've have been brainwashed my friend
by tax dodgers and idiots that don't have a clue how this Country works

The Governement is your Only Protection
the day you give up it's protections is the day you will lose it all

and the Republican party has one goal in mind, to strip away these protections so they can take it all and hand it over to the rich and powerful.

No one wants Communism, we want Capitalism and Socialism, it's called a Democratic Socialism,
All private businesses practice capitalism, the Gov. provides you with socialized military, clean air and water, police, fire, health care and protection from predatory corporations, and other evils

It's all very simple
to bad you just don't get it
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:04am PT
I don't want the Gov. telling me what kind of health care I get

It's the Republicans that are telling us what we get
That's why we got ObamaCare, it was a Conservative plan, the only plan they could get through Congress
Now they want to screw us even more with TrumpCare, which will Cost a lot More!

I want Cheap Socialized Single Payer, why can't I have it???

Because the F-ing Republicans want me to spend more so the banksters can tell me what I get while they rake in millions in profits.
They are telling the entire Nation what it will get.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:10am PT
What if the Government doctor tells you "we don't cover cerebral fluid leaks." what then

Many Insurance plans have been imposing such limitations for years, or providing bare bones coverage with high deductibles.

Before the ACA, a person with this pre-existing condition might have been permanently precluded from ever obtaining affordable insurance. They were left to fend themselves, and go bankrupt paying for it. But hey...freedom, right?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:25am PT
Dudes.... we just disagree.

and CF ... I guess I was brain washed when President Kennedy said, "ask knott what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"

Taking care of yourself, paying your own way and not looking to the big brother, provider of all things, government to hand you something is really a shitty way to live....

do you look to the FEDs to decide what sort of jeans you will like?
what sort of Car you will drive? Where you will work?

I think the answer from many of you would be a "YES"

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:31am PT
ask knott what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"

Kennedy said that about TAXES
Pay your Taxes, that's what you can do for your Country

So I guess you were brainwashed to think it meant something else

The brainwashing goes deep in most right wingers

what did you think it meant?
hate the Gov. that provides you with it's Benefits??

This is just plain stupid
do you look to the FEDs to decide what sort of jeans you will like?
what sort of Car you will drive? Where you will work?

I think the answer from many of you would be a "YES"
The answer is NO

I do want the Gov. to regulate cars so they are safe and don't pollute
and jeans that won't kill me, and a job that doesn't make me a slave
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:38am PT
It seems to me that under the current system I pay more than citizens of other developed countries and have an insurance company tell me what doctors I may see and what health care I may receive. Aside from the the differences in philosophy (which I couldn't care less about) of having an insurance company tell me what health care I get and the government doing so, I don't see the advantage of the current system. It's wasteful to have a massive middle man sucking up most health care dollars.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 28, 2017 - 10:00am PT
It's pretty simple - trump made specific healthcare promises:


 “insurance for everybody"

 "much lower premiums & deductibles and be great healthcare

 “We don't want anyone who currently has insurance to not have insurance

 “protects people with preexisting conditions

 "no cuts to Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid"

 "nobody will be worse off financially"


If you believe a single one of those promises is going to be kept you are dumb as a stump.
WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2017 - 10:03am PT
Yap yap yap yap ... you people can't do sh!t.

You keep the stoopidest people in Office.

You're democrazy is useless as you can't do sh!t .....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 10:04am PT
Has a single Promise that Trump made during the Campaign come to fruition?
NO

They were all lies used to dupe his idiot supporters
Everything he said about Hillary was really the truth about Him
He is the Grand wizard of Projection.

He is a lying corrupt criminal under investigation by the FBI, in bed with Wall Street and the banksters
And doesn't give a rats ass about America or it's people

He has businesses in Russia and Saudi Arabia, after spouting that Hillary is making money off these evil Countries that have Human rights crimes

All his foundations and charitable Organizations funnel money directly into his pockets

Now we are the laughing stock of the world, they are laughing at us for electing such a goon

America was Greater w/o Trump
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 28, 2017 - 10:21am PT
Guyman
If you want cheap Health Care Insurance
you can get a Special on Dr. F's "The Greatest HealthCare Insurance Plan Ever"

No Contracts to sign!
Just send me $400 a month, and send me all your Doctor bills
and I will file them in my special circular filing system

And your good to Go!
No evil Government regulations or intrusions, the best of all worlds, right?
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 28, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
guyman: cheers, man.



you keep saying you don't want the feds to pay...

sorry this is so dickish, but i don't know how else to ask: you do understand the concept of insurance and how that works, yeah?



finally, for every cheap lasik surgery and breast reduction, there are ten thousand over priced drugs, epi pens, etc and etc... there are millions and likely billions of dollars being pissed down the tubes to marketers... and there are certainly billions of dollars being pissed into insurance to cover ridiculous malpractice suits [and this is of course not saying that all malpractice is frivolous].

saying that the individual is the best person to purchase "healthcare" when they will inevitably often have the gun of their own mortality directed at their face when they are trying to make that "purchase", will get you the system the u.s. has...




but you've already seemingly concluded that you think the ferrari for some, and sandals for others model, is the best one, as long as you personally don't have to worry about the possibility of the "government" stopping you from buying your ferrari...

while i still don't think you understand the concept of insurance, or that there are possible scenarios where a single payer federally mandated version could cover up to a certain amount while the feds at the same time used their muscle to reduce the vast amounts of profiteering [especially in the drug sector] while also taking advantage of its collective bargaining power... and that you could still have a system where people could pay through the nose for whatever they wanted above and beyond that...

you seem to think whatever system is put in place needs to be black or white.

it doesn't have to be, as there are ways of creating hybrid systems...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 28, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
Sad and tragic that the drooling class of America can't see the US health care system for what it is...A shell game and a scam.. Pay thru the nose ahead of time for medical services that you might need based upon corporate quarterly projections and then be outraged at the government when the insurance company denies you care and tells you to read the fine print... The definition of insanity is written all over this... " Kick me " signs with scotch tape , need to be mailed to any middle-class voter who supports the AHCA....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
an argument for the industry is that it finances research.

The industry is the one making everyone sick, then the idiots in the industry takes the people's money to figure out what is making everyone sick and to find a cure all while making more poisons.

Around and around in circles these fools go chasing their tails misleading everyone only to make money.

Remember that we are talking about the INSURANCE industry. They don't finance ANYTHING. To their credit, they also make no poisons (yet)
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:21pm PT
do you look to the FEDs to decide what sort of jeans you will like?
what sort of Car you will drive? Where you will work?

I think the answer from many of you would be a "YES"

What kind of logic is this?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
So if Single payer is so good, why do people from other countries, people in power, come over to the good old USA to get medical care?

All the time.

Most of you guys don't "get it" at all.

Get the federal government out of health care and we would ALL be better off.

wise up.

You have NEVER provided care for such people, I have. You ask "why".

First, they do not really have to worry about security---American first tier hospitals are secure places, for the most part, and have experience protecting the identity of "guest" patients.

Second, what is excellent beyond compare, is medical education in the US. Graduates can get super-specialized training with absolute experts.

Also the US has access to the most modern of technology, paid for by the profits of hospitals.

I have worked with doctors who originated in many other countries, and I've found the ones who went through the process to become licensed in the US (which generally requires repeating several years of training they've already done elsewhere), were generally excellent.

The Gov't requires information to captured and dispensed, about quality and cost of healthcare. No one else does.

It is BECAUSE the US gov't is involved in our healthcare, that those of power want care here.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 28, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
What if the Government doctor tells you "we don't cover cerebral fluid leaks." what then?


First, it is not true, so second opinion.

Second, it is not true, so that doctor, like all doctors know, that you have set yourself up for a lawsuit for anything bad that happens to that patient.

Third, it is not true, and deviates from the Standard of Care, by which all doctors are judged. This action could result in loss of medical license.

Finally, "the Government doctor" that you are stating is NOT what anyone is proposing. What is being discussed is the payment mechanism ONLY. For example, virtually every adult-treating doctor in America receives payment from Medicare.

Are they "Gov't doctors"? they are the ones you go to now.

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jun 28, 2017 - 10:37pm PT
Can't say I much care for these poli-threads, but I do peak in and couldn't let this one go uncontested ;-)
Craig Fry posted in reply to a Kennedy quote:
Kennedy said that about TAXES
Pay your Taxes, that's what you can do for your Country

So I guess you were brainwashed to think it meant something else

The brainwashing goes deep in most right wingers

what did you think it meant?
I looked at the address from the JFK library site. https://www.jfklibrary.org/Research/Research-Aids/Ready-Reference/JFK-Quotations/Inaugural-Address.aspx
The inaugural speech was mostly centered on foreign policy and peace.
Remember, JFK was the one who started the Peace Corps. This was a time when school children were practicing ducking under desks, and I remember San Diego's air raid sirens going off at noon every Monday.

As far as taxes; In supporting his call for reducing taxes to stimulate the economy, Kennedy stated that a rising tide lifts all boats.
Edit: The tax quote was not in the inaugural address.
Cheers
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 29, 2017 - 08:06am PT
You may be correct on those points.
I did hear someone speak at length about the Tax implications of the speech
So I thought it was better well known

Of course you shouldn't "Ask not what your country can do for you"
We all want to be independent and not have to rely on handouts,
but it's there if we need it,
and we all will have to rely on it for it's Protections that it provides.


But here is where most people are clueless "but what you can do for your country"?

what does that mean?
It sure doesn't mean hating it and fighting against it, or working on bankrupting it.

The most patriotic thing possible is Paying Your Fair Share of taxes, so it can do it's work. The Gov. doesn't need anything more from You as a Citizen, other than to not cause problems that raise costs.

You vote for the Gov. you want, you pay your taxes, and you work to make this a better world for all.


Kennedy's tax cut from 90% to 75% on the top tax rate was actually a Tax Increase revenue wise, because he eliminated all the loopholes that the rich were using to avoid paying any taxes.
It was a big problem back then, the rich were doing everything possible to avoid paying taxes because the rate was so high, so the point was to bring it down to a more reasonable rate, close loopholes, and increase enforcement, which increased tax revenue.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 29, 2017 - 10:36am PT
The most patriotic thing possible is Paying Your Fair Share of taxes, so it can do it's work. The Gov. doesn't need anything more from You as a Citizen, other than to not cause problems that raise costs.


And vote! If you don't vote, then someone else is selecting the gov't that will rule YOU.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2017 - 10:37am PT
California is going on the record listing Glyphosate (Roundup Weed Killer, present in almost all wheat and many other grains in America) as a carcinogen:
 https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/crnr/glyphosate-listed-effective-july-7-2017-known-state-california-cause-cancer#_ftnref3
 http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/health/california-glyphosate-cancer-chemical-listing/index.html

While Monsanto was fighting in court to block California from doing this, they successfully lobbied the US Department of Agriculture to stop testing for the presence of Glyphosate in our food supply! Good ol' USDA not even measuring a poison where reputable science has shown a problem to human health, and where lawsuits are pending at state level to list it as a carcinogen. That is criminally negligent on the agency side, and it is a criminal conspiracy on the company side to harm millions of people for a financial motive.

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic commonly test with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. The agency in charge of agricultural practices to protect our food supply bent to the will of a profit machine while knowingly exposing us all to death and chronic health problems. We are literally being killed by our food under the aegis of a lax regulatory environment.

This is a PERFECT example of several major weaknesses and failures in our national government:
 we need federal regulations to protect the health and safety of our citizenry and to protect the environment in which we must live. Citizens and private industry do not have sufficient power or scope to evaluate the complex supply chain of our food! Unless we go back to a self-sufficient agrarian society, this must be a primary role of a national government. Technology has created a risk to our society that was not present at the time the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution. Falling back to that limited notion of government is ridiculous.

 we need to stop the revolving door between our government overseer agencies and the executive ranks of the industries they are overseeing. There should be a white-collar crime branch of the FBI that specifically audits the income of all past employees from overseer agencies to detect and prosecute those who accept any form of employment or benefit (directly or through shell corporations on employer or employee side) from the companies regulated by the industry. It should be a criminally indictable offense with jail time and stiff fines.

 we need more powerful tools and transparency to thwart industry lobbying in general

 we need more education in our schools to foster critical thinking, to improve the effectiveness of our voting citizenry to support our long term well-being. We need to educate people about how government regulations are protections for all of us people, protecting our long term priorities and collective well-being. People need better tools and defenses against the stupid political slogans about "burdensome regulations"

It is unrealistic to expect everybody to have a self-sufficient food supply to protect against this. It is one of many facets in how the "deconstruction" of our federal government agencies will lead to the deconstruction of our society.

More info from my post on this thread 3 months ago:

We already know EPA is being gutted with specific plans to eliminate it entirely. So more poisoned air and water.

So it should be no surprise that consumer protections of the food we eat will be rolled back too. Amidst growing evidence that glyphosate causes major human health problems (Roundup weed killer from Monsanto- the reason they wanted to make genetically engineered plants so they can just blanket spray the stuff over all crops we eat), now we have the US Dept of Agriculture suspending tests for this poison:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/usda-drops-plan-to-test-for-monsanto-weed-killer-in_us_58d2db4ee4b062043ad4af84

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic have tested with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. Here are links to human health:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/


So while the USA is turning a blind eye to something that might be poisoning hundreds of millions of people in our country, here is what is happening in places that still embrace "facts":
http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/07/12/eu-member-states-support-restrictions-of-use-for-glyphosate-herbicides/#.V8BUJfl97IU

http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/08/26/italian-health-ministry-places-strict-restrictions-on-glyphosate-herbicide-use/

What can you do? Buy Glyphosate-free certified foods.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jun 29, 2017 - 11:52am PT
The most patriotic thing possible is Paying Your Fair Share of taxes, so it can do it's work. The Gov. doesn't need anything more from You as a Citizen, other than to not cause problems that raise costs.
I think being personally responsible, respectful of others and ethical goes farther.
(EDIT: Raising children to be responsible adults is the most important task in any society)
In fact let's eliminate the personal income tax and go to national sales tax and give corporations incentives to bring the money home and pay more taxes...General Electric and congress, I'm talking to you and your ilk.

Kennedy's tax cut from 90% to 75% on the top tax rate was actually a Tax Increase revenue wise, because he eliminated all the loopholes that the rich were using to avoid paying any taxes.
There were probably many loopholes still available, and if the tax cut increased revenue, Arthur Laffer was happy.
I perceive that is the reason Kennedy said a rising tide lifts all boats.


And vote! If you don't vote, then someone else is selecting the gov't that will rule YOU.
I like it when dumb, ignorant or disinterested people don't vote ;-)

I'm gonna leave my comments at that, otherwise I'll get sucked into the poli-thread vortex again.
Cheers

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jun 29, 2017 - 11:53am PT
In fact let's eliminate the personal income tax and go to national sales tax

Increase taxes on the working poor and lower taxes for billionaires. Sounds like a great idea.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jun 29, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
Gary,
You are right about that. But we also know that the only way the government will take care of the national debt is to inflate our way out of it. This is also an insidious tax on the working poor.
As far as Billionaires go, a national sales tax, taxes the most those who spend the most money. Not perfect, but everything has a cost, and most likely unintended consequences.
And we all know that huge taxes on corporations are only passed down to consumers, another insidious tax on consumers
I'll stop now and respectfully disagree with the DNC's perspective on how to save the country and the world.
Cheers
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Jun 29, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
Ontheedge typed the best single sentence in this thread:

"It's wasteful to have a massive middle man sucking up most health care dollars."
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 29, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
An effective tax rate of 17.1 really isn't that high.


https://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/


And a effective corporate rate of 25 per cent seem reasonable.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2017/04/18/what-americas-biggest-companies-pay-in-taxes/#3d86605e2f51
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 29, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
When you travel somewhere by car for work you can deduct nothing up to 2% of AGI. Above 2% AGI you can deduct 54 cents per mile.

An executive in a corporate jet has a shell company to own the jet and there is no limit on what they deduct, say for a real estate exec to fly to Mir A Lago for a weekend, perhaps $1,000 per mile for a 727.

So what is my point? My point is that corporations give their execs non taxable pay. For example, SDGE (Sempra) built a $20 million giant resort in Mexico, for the sole use of their executives, who pay nothing for these "work" retreats. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/sdut-ex-exec-says-sempra-resort-got-him-fired-2010nov13-htmlstory.html

When a company buys a luxury box for a season of major league sports, they write it off as an entertainment "expense." Do you think the execs in the box are going to start reporting this giveaway as taxable income?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 29, 2017 - 03:04pm PT
Nice post Nut. Worth a repost;
California is going on the record listing Glyphosate (Roundup Weed Killer, present in almost all wheat and many other grains in America) as a carcinogen:
https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/crnr/glyphosate-listed-effective-july-7-2017-known-state-california-cause-cancer#_ftnref3
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/health/california-glyphosate-cancer-chemical-listing/index.html

While Monsanto was fighting in court to block California from doing this, they successfully lobbied the US Department of Agriculture to stop testing for the presence of Glyphosate in our food supply! Good ol' USDA not even measuring a poison where reputable science has shown a problem to human health, and where lawsuits are pending at state level to list it as a carcinogen. That is criminally negligent on the agency side, and it is a criminal conspiracy on the company side to harm millions of people for a financial motive.

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic commonly test with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. The agency in charge of agricultural practices to protect our food supply bent to the will of a profit machine while knowingly exposing us all to death and chronic health problems. We are literally being killed by our food under the aegis of a lax regulatory environment.

This is a PERFECT example of several major weaknesses and failures in our national government:
we need federal regulations to protect the health and safety of our citizenry and to protect the environment in which we must live. Citizens and private industry do not have sufficient power or scope to evaluate the complex supply chain of our food! Unless we go back to a self-sufficient agrarian society, this must be a primary role of a national government. Technology has created a risk to our society that was not present at the time the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution. Falling back to that limited notion of government is ridiculous.

we need to stop the revolving door between our government overseer agencies and the executive ranks of the industries they are overseeing. There should be a white-collar crime branch of the FBI that specifically audits the income of all past employees from overseer agencies to detect and prosecute those who accept any form of employment or benefit (directly or through shell corporations on employer or employee side) from the companies regulated by the industry. It should be a criminally indictable offense with jail time and stiff fines.

we need more powerful tools and transparency to thwart industry lobbying in general

we need more education in our schools to foster critical thinking, to improve the effectiveness of our voting citizenry to support our long term well-being. We need to educate people about how government regulations are protections for all of us people, protecting our long term priorities and collective well-being. People need better tools and defenses against the stupid political slogans about "burdensome regulations"

It is unrealistic to expect everybody to have a self-sufficient food supply to protect against this. It is one of many facets in how the "deconstruction" of our federal government agencies will lead to the deconstruction of our society.

More info from my post on this thread 3 months ago:

We already know EPA is being gutted with specific plans to eliminate it entirely. So more poisoned air and water.

So it should be no surprise that consumer protections of the food we eat will be rolled back too. Amidst growing evidence that glyphosate causes major human health problems (Roundup weed killer from Monsanto- the reason they wanted to make genetically engineered plants so they can just blanket spray the stuff over all crops we eat), now we have the US Dept of Agriculture suspending tests for this poison:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/usda-drops-plan-to-test-for-monsanto-weed-killer-in_us_58d2db4ee4b062043ad4af84

Glyphosate is used in almost all wheat, corn, soy, and gluten-free grain substitutes in America, and even products labeled Organic have tested with glyphosate poison residues. We are all bombarded with it in North America. Here are links to human health:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/


So while the USA is turning a blind eye to something that might be poisoning hundreds of millions of people in our country, here is what is happening in places that still embrace "facts":
http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/07/12/eu-member-states-support-restrictions-of-use-for-glyphosate-herbicides/#.V8BUJfl97IU

http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/08/26/italian-health-ministry-places-strict-restrictions-on-glyphosate-herbicide-use/

What can you do? Buy Glyphosate-free certified foods.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 29, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
Definitely one of the best things you can do is don't give them (Monsanto) your money if you can help it. Not always an easy thing to do btw.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jun 29, 2017 - 07:50pm PT

Eat Organic!!!
dirtbag

climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:07am PT
As great as it would be to talk about substantive policy issues, the number one problem we have is the fact that we have an insecure, unhinged, and crooked president.

You've all read yesterday's tweets: Mika and Joe hit back, revealing:

The president’s unhealthy obsession with our show has been in the public record for months, and we are seldom surprised by his posting nasty tweets about us. During the campaign, the Republican nominee called Mika “neurotic” and promised to attack us personally after the campaign ended. This year, top White House staff members warned that the National Enquirer was planning to publish a negative article about us unless we begged the president to have the story spiked. We ignored their desperate pleas.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/donald-trump-is-not-well/2017/06/30/97759ee0-5d0f-11e7-9b7d-14576dc0f39d_story.html

So...they were told to grovel before the president, or else the national enquirer would dish dirt on them? It's their word against the president's on this, but they claim they have texts to back it up.

Nice going, GOP.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:28am PT
Trump
“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re about to find the 30,000 [Hillary Clinton] emails that are missing,” he said at a press conference. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens. That will be next.”

They were listening, and the hacking was already in progress


So a GOP operative (Peter Smith who died soon after) colluded with Michael Flynn to try and get them from Russia

A tantalizing new report from Shane Harris of the Wall Street Journal gives the strongest indication yet that collusion may have occurred — or was at least attempted — between supporters of Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and Russian hackers who targeted Democrats’ emails.

And it raises serious questions about whether fired National Security Adviser Michael Flynn was involved in these efforts to contact hackers.
https://www.vox.com/2017/6/29/15896582/trump-russia-michael-flynn-wsj
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:43am PT
New York Times List of Trump lies from Jan 21 to June 21, 2017

Jan. 21 “I wasn't a fan of Iraq. I didn't want to go into Iraq.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.)Jan. 21 “A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.” (Trump was on the cover 11 times and Nixon appeared 55 times.)Jan. 23 “Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.” (There's no evidence of illegal voting.)Jan. 25 “Now, the audience was the biggest ever. But this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive.” (Official aerial photos show Obama's 2009 inauguration was much more heavily attended.)Jan. 25 “Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)” (The report never mentioned voter fraud.)Jan. 25 “You had millions of people that now aren't insured anymore.” (The real number is less than 1 million, according to the Urban Institute.)Jan. 25 “So, look, when President Obama was there two weeks ago making a speech, very nice speech. Two people were shot and killed during his speech. You can't have that.” (There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.)Jan. 26 “We've taken in tens of thousands of people. We know nothing about them. They can say they vet them. They didn't vet them. They have no papers. How can you vet somebody when you don't know anything about them and you have no papers? How do you vet them? You can't.” (Vetting lasts up to two years.)Jan. 26 “I cut off hundreds of millions of dollars off one particular plane, hundreds of millions of dollars in a short period of time. It wasn't like I spent, like, weeks, hours, less than hours, and many, many hundreds of millions of dollars. And the plane's going to be better.” (Most of the cuts were already planned.)Jan. 28 “The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers.” (It never apologized.)Jan. 29 “The Cuban-Americans, I got 84 percent of that vote.” (There is no support for this.)Jan. 30 “Only 109 people out of 325,000 were detained and held for questioning. Big problems at airports were caused by Delta computer outage.” (At least 746 people were detained and processed, and the Delta outage happened two days later.)Feb. 3 “Professional anarchists, thugs and paid protesters are proving the point of the millions of people who voted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” (There is no evidence of paid protesters.)Feb. 4 “After being forced to apologize for its bad and inaccurate coverage of me after winning the election, the FAKE NEWS @nytimes is still lost!” (It never apologized.)Feb. 5 “We had 109 people out of hundreds of thousands of travelers and all we did was vet those people very, very carefully.” (About 60,000 people were affected.)Feb. 6 “I have already saved more than $700 million when I got involved in the negotiation on the F-35.” (Much of the price drop was projected before Trump took office.)Feb. 6 “It's gotten to a point where it is not even being reported. And in many cases, the very, very dishonest press doesn't want to report it.” (Terrorism has been reported on, often in detail.)Feb. 6 “The failing @nytimes was forced to apologize to its subscribers for the poor reporting it did on my election win. Now they are worse!” (It didn't apologize.)Feb. 6 “And the previous administration allowed it to happen because we shouldn't have been in Iraq, but we shouldn't have gotten out the way we got out. It created a vacuum, ISIS was formed.” (The group’s origins date to 2004.)Feb. 7 “And yet the murder rate in our country is the highest it’s been in 47 years, right? Did you know that? Forty-seven years.” (It was higher in the 1980s and '90s.)Feb. 7 “I saved more than $600 million. I got involved in negotiation on a fighter jet, the F-35.” (The Defense Department projected this price drop before Trump took office.)Feb. 9 “Chris Cuomo, in his interview with Sen. Blumenthal, never asked him about his long-term lie about his brave ‘service’ in Vietnam. FAKE NEWS!” (It was part of Cuomo's first question.)Feb. 9 Sen. Richard Blumenthal “now misrepresents what Judge Gorsuch told him?” (The Gorsuch comments were later corroborated.)Feb. 10 “I don’t know about it. I haven’t seen it. What report is that?” (Trump knew about Flynn's actions for weeks.)Feb. 12 “Just leaving Florida. Big crowds of enthusiastic supporters lining the road that the FAKE NEWS media refuses to mention. Very dishonest!” (The media did cover it.)Feb. 16 “We got 306 because people came out and voted like they've never seen before so that's the way it goes. I guess it was the biggest Electoral College win since Ronald Reagan.” (George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all won bigger margins in the Electoral College.)Feb. 16 “That’s the other thing that was wrong with the travel ban. You had Delta with a massive problem with their computer system at the airports.” (Delta's problems happened two days later.)Feb. 16 “Walmart announced it will create 10,000 jobs in the United States just this year because of our various plans and initiatives.” (The jobs are a result of its investment plans announced in October 2016.)Feb. 16 “When WikiLeaks, which I had nothing to do with, comes out and happens to give, they’re not giving classified information.” (Not always. They have released classified information in the past.)Feb. 16 “We had a very smooth rollout of the travel ban. But we had a bad court. Got a bad decision.” (The rollout was chaotic.)Feb. 16 “They’re giving stuff — what was said at an office about Hillary cheating on the debates. Which, by the way, nobody mentions. Nobody mentions that Hillary received the questions to the debates.” (It was widely covered.)Feb. 18 “And there was no way to vet those people. There was no documentation. There was no nothing.” (Refugees receive multiple background checks, taking up to two years.)Feb. 18 “You look at what's happening in Germany, you look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this?” (Trump implied there was a terror attack in Sweden, but there was no such attack.)Feb. 24 “By the way, you folks are in here — this place is packed, there are lines that go back six blocks.” (There was no evidence of long lines.)Feb. 24 “ICE came and endorsed me.” (Only its union did.)Feb. 24 “Obamacare covers very few people — and remember, deduct from the number all of the people that had great health care that they loved that was taken away from them — it was taken away from them.” (Obamacare increased coverage by a net of about 20 million.)Feb. 27 “Since Obamacare went into effect, nearly half of the insurers are stopped and have stopped from participating in the Obamacare exchanges.” (Many fewer pulled out.)Feb. 27 “On one plane, on a small order of one plane, I saved $725 million. And I would say I devoted about, if I added it up, all those calls, probably about an hour. So I think that might be my highest and best use.” (Much of the price cut was already projected.)Feb. 28 “And now, based on our very strong and frank discussions, they are beginning to do just that.” (NATO countries agreed to meet defense spending requirements in 2014.)Feb. 28 “The E.P.A.’s regulators were putting people out of jobs by the hundreds of thousands.” (There's no evidence that the Waters of the United States rule caused severe job losses.)Feb. 28 “We have begun to drain the swamp of government corruption by imposing a five-year ban on lobbying by executive branch officials.” (They can't lobby their former agency but can still become lobbyists.)March 3 “It is so pathetic that the Dems have still not approved my full Cabinet.” (Paperwork for the last two candidates was still not submitted to the Senate.)March 4 “Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!” (There's no evidence of a wiretap.)March 4 “How low has President Obama gone to tap my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!” (There's no evidence of a wiretap.)March 7 “122 vicious prisoners, released by the Obama Administration from Gitmo, have returned to the battlefield. Just another terrible decision!” (113 of them were released by President George W. Bush.)March 13 “I saved a lot of money on those jets, didn't I? Did I do a good job? More than $725 million on them.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)March 13 “First of all, it covers very few people.” (About 20 million people gained insurance under Obamacare.)March 15 “On the airplanes, I saved $725 million. Probably took me a half an hour if you added up all of the times.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)March 17 “I was in Tennessee — I was just telling the folks — and half of the state has no insurance company, and the other half is going to lose the insurance company.” (There's at least one insurer in every Tennessee county.)March 20 “With just one negotiation on one set of airplanes, I saved the taxpayers of our country over $700 million.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)March 21 “To save taxpayer dollars, I’ve already begun negotiating better contracts for the federal government — saving over $700 million on just one set of airplanes of which there are many sets.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)March 22 “I make the statement, everyone goes crazy. The next day they have a massive riot, and death, and problems.” (Riots in Sweden broke out two days later and there were no deaths.)March 22 “NATO, obsolete, because it doesn’t cover terrorism. They fixed that.” (It has fought terrorism since the 1980s.)March 22 “Well, now, if you take a look at the votes, when I say that, I mean mostly they register wrong — in other words, for the votes, they register incorrectly and/or illegally. And they then vote. You have tremendous numbers of people.” (There's no evidence of widespread voter fraud.)March 29 “Remember when the failing @nytimes apologized to its subscribers, right after the election, because their coverage was so wrong. Now worse!” (It didn't apologize.)March 31 “We have a lot of plants going up now in Michigan that were never going to be there if I — if I didn’t win this election, those plants would never even think about going back. They were gone.” (These investments were already planned.)April 2 “And I was totally opposed to the war in the Middle East which I think finally has been proven, people tried very hard to say I wasn’t but you’ve seen that it is now improving.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.)April 2 “Now, my last tweet — you know, the one that you are talking about, perhaps — was the one about being, in quotes, wiretapped, meaning surveilled. Guess what, it is turning out to be true.” (There is still no evidence.)April 5 “You have many states coming up where they’re going to have no insurance company. O.K.? It’s already happened in Tennessee. It’s happening in Kentucky. Tennessee only has half coverage. Half the state is gone. They left.” (Every marketplace region in Tennessee had at least one insurer.)April 6 “If you look at the kind of cost-cutting we’ve been able to achieve with the military and at the same time ordering vast amounts of equipment — saved hundreds of millions of dollars on airplanes, and really billions, because if you take that out over a period of years it’s many billions of dollars — I think we’ve had a tremendous success.” (Much of the price cuts were already projected.)April 11 “I like Steve, but you have to remember he was not involved in my campaign until very late. I had already beaten all the senators and all the governors, and I didn’t know Steve.” (He knew Steve Bannon since 2011.)April 12 “You can't do it faster, because they're obstructing. They're obstructionists. So I have people — hundreds of people that we're trying to get through. I mean you have — you see the backlog. We can't get them through.” (At this point, he had not nominated anyone for hundreds of positions.)April 12 “The New York Times said the word wiretapped in the headline of the first edition. Then they took it out of there fast when they realized.” (There were separate headlines for print and web, but neither were altered.)April 12 “The secretary general and I had a productive discussion about what more NATO can do in the fight against terrorism. I complained about that a long time ago and they made a change, and now they do fight terrorism.” (NATO has been engaged in counterterrorism efforts since the 1980s.)April 12 “Mosul was supposed to last for a week and now they’ve been fighting it for many months and so many more people died.” (The campaign was expected to take months.)April 16 “Someone should look into who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. The election is over!” (There's no evidence of paid protesters.)April 18 “The fake media goes, ‘Donald Trump changed his stance on China.’ I haven’t changed my stance.” (He did.)April 21 “On 90 planes I saved $725 million. It's actually a little bit more than that, but it's $725 million.” (Much of the price cuts were already projected.)April 21 “When WikiLeaks came out … never heard of WikiLeaks, never heard of it.” (He criticized it as early as 2010.)April 27 “I want to help our miners while the Democrats are blocking their healthcare.” (The bill to extend health benefits for certain coal miners was introduced by a Democrat and was co-sponsored by mostly Democrats.)April 28 “The trade deficit with Mexico is close to $70 billion, even with Canada it’s $17 billion trade deficit with Canada.” (The U.S. had an $8.1 billion trade surplus, not deficit, with Canada in 2016.)April 28 “She's running against someone who's going to raise your taxes to the sky, destroy your health care, and he's for open borders — lots of crime.” (Those are not Jon Ossoff's positions.)April 28 “The F-35 fighter jet program — it was way over budget. I’ve saved $725 million plus, just by getting involved in the negotiation.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)April 29 “They're incompetent, dishonest people who after an election had to apologize because they covered it, us, me, but all of us, they covered it so badly that they felt they were forced to apologize because their predictions were so bad.” (The Times did not apologize.)April 29 “As you know, I've been a big critic of China, and I've been talking about currency manipulation for a long time. But I have to tell you that during the election, number one, they stopped.” (China stopped years ago.)April 29 “I've already saved more than $725 million on a simple order of F-35 planes. I got involved in the negotiation.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)April 29 “We're also getting NATO countries to finally step up and contribute their fair share. They've begun to increase their contributions by billions of dollars, but we are not going to be satisfied until everyone pays what they owe.” (The deal was struck in 2014.)April 29 “When they talk about currency manipulation, and I did say I would call China, if they were, a currency manipulator, early in my tenure. And then I get there. Number one, they — as soon as I got elected, they stopped.” (China stopped in 2014.)April 29 “I was negotiating to reduce the price of the big fighter jet contract, the F-35, which was totally out of control. I will save billions and billions and billions of dollars.” (Most of the cuts were planned before Trump.)April 29 “I think our side's been proven very strongly. And everybody's talking about it.” (There's still no evidence Trump's phones were tapped.)May 1 “Well, we are protecting pre-existing conditions. And it'll be every good — bit as good on pre-existing conditions as Obamacare.” (The bill weakens protections for people with pre-existing conditions.)May 1 “The F-35 fighter jet — I saved — I got involved in the negotiation. It's 2,500 jets. I negotiated for 90 planes, lot 10. I got $725 million off the price.” (Much of the price cuts were planned before Trump.)May 1 “First of all, since I started running, they haven't increased their — you know, they have not manipulated their currency. I think that was out of respect to me and the campaign.” (China stopped years ago.)May 2 “I love buying those planes at a reduced price. I have been really — I have cut billions — I have to tell you this, and they can check, right, Martha? I have cut billions and billions of dollars off plane contracts sitting here.” (Much of the cost cuts were planned before Trump.)May 4 “Number two, they’re actually not a currency [manipulator]. You know, since I’ve been talking about currency manipulation with respect to them and other countries, they stopped.” (China stopped years ago.)May 4 “We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world.” (We're not.)May 4 “Nobody cares about my tax return except for the reporters.” (Polls show most Americans do care.)May 8 “You know we’ve gotten billions of dollars more in NATO than we’re getting. All because of me.” (The deal was struck in 2014.)May 8 “But when I did his show, which by the way was very highly rated. It was high — highest rating. The highest rating he’s ever had.” (Colbert's “Late Show” debut had nearly two million more viewers.)May 8 “Director Clapper reiterated what everybody, including the fake media already knows — there is ‘no evidence’ of collusion w/ Russia and Trump.” (Clapper only said he wasn't aware of an investigation.)May 12 “Again, the story that there was collusion between the Russians & Trump campaign was fabricated by Dems as an excuse for losing the election.” (The F.B.I. was investigating before the election.)May 12 “When James Clapper himself, and virtually everyone else with knowledge of the witch hunt, says there is no collusion, when does it end?” (Clapper said he wouldn't have been told of an investigation into collusion.)May 13 “I'm cutting the price of airplanes with Lockheed.” (The cost cuts were planned before he became president.)May 26 “Just arrived in Italy for the G7. Trip has been very successful. We made and saved the USA many billions of dollars and millions of jobs.” (He's referencing an arms deal that's not enacted and other apparent deals that weren't announced on the trip.)June 1 “China will be allowed to build hundreds of additional coal plants. So, we can’t build the plants, but they can, according to this agreement. India will be allowed to double its coal production by 2020.” (The agreement doesn’t allow or disallow building coal plants.)June 1 “I’ve just returned from a trip overseas where we concluded nearly $350 billion of military and economic development for the United States, creating hundreds of thousands of jobs.” (Trump’s figures are inflated and premature.)June 4 “At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and Mayor of London says there is ‘no reason to be alarmed!’” (The mayor was specifically talking about the enlarged police presence on the streets.)June 5 “The Justice Dept. should have stayed with the original Travel Ban, not the watered down, politically correct version they submitted to S.C.” (Trump signed this version of the travel ban, not the Justice Department.)June 21 “They all say it's 'nonbinding.' Like hell it's nonbinding.” (The Paris climate agreement is nonbinding — and Trump said so in his speech announcing the withdrawal.)June 21 “Right now, we are one of the highest-taxed nations in the world.” (We're not.)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Yeah but Clinton lied about Monica... gotcha..
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:54am PT
And Hillary;
said it was the video, and it was
and said that she flew in under sniper fire, because the pilot told her they flew in under sniper fire the last time he flew in
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jun 30, 2017 - 09:19am PT
The new AHCA will be fantastic , stupendous , and great except for 22 million of you pathetic losers...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 30, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Hillary e-mail scandal exposed, no crimes were committed

https://www.vox.com/2016/10/10/13222360/trump-emails-clinton

excerpts

Here’s Trump:

I didn't think I'd say this, and I'm going to say it and hate to say it: If I win, I'm going to instruct the attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there's never been so many lies, so much deception.

There has never been anything like this, where emails and you get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena, you delete 33,000 emails and then acid wash them or bleach them.

We should get the most important point about this out of the way: From what we know from the FBI, Trump’s accusation that is flat-out incorrect. FBI Director James Comey has repeatedly said that there’s “no evidence” Clinton’s emails were deleted in an attempt to hide them, and all of the documents released by the FBI’s investigation since then have backed that up that conclusion.

But like many wild accusations, Trump’s claim is built around a true fact: Somewhere around 33,000 emails from Clinton’s time as secretary of state really were deleted. Trump, however, omitted the most crucial fact about these emails — Clinton’s team ordered them to be deleted before any subpoenas had been issued.

The decision to delete Clinton’s personal emails came before the congressional subpoena

The key to understanding what’s going on here is to first go back to why Clinton’s emails were deleted in the first place.

All of the emails Clinton sent or received while secretary of state were once being stored on one private server. When a congressional investigation into Benghazi began asking for records from her time as secretary of state, Clinton ordered her lawyers to give the State Department all of her "work-related" emails.

This is how we get to two separate batches of Clinton emails — the first “work-related” emails turned over to the state department, and the second “non-work related” emails that stayed on the private server.

That first batch of around 30,000 emails has been released piecemeal by the State Department. The second batch of “non-work related” emails, around 32,000 of them, were eventually deleted.


It’s for the deletion of this second group of emails that Trump thinks Clinton should be jailed. The idea, popular among some conservatives, is that Clinton ducked congressional investigators by deleting these private emails — which they think may have contained damaging Clinton secrets — while under subpoena.

This accusation is very difficult to maintain under the facts produced by the FBI for a few key reasons.

For one, Clinton’s staff told the contractor managing the private sever to delete the second batch of emails in December 2014, according to the FBI. The House Republicans’ Benghazi committee didn’t order that all emails on the private server be preserved until March 2015. (There’s a complicated counter-narrative that these emails weren’t actually deleted until a conference call with Bill Clinton’s attorneys after the subpoena was issued, but that story doesn’t make much sense for reasons I explained here.)

It’s also not really possible to think that Clinton herself is responsible for hiding and deleting the “non-work related” emails that Trump is referencing. That’s because Clinton delegated those decisions to her attorneys — nobody has claimed that Clinton herself determined which emails were work-related and which ones were not.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2017 - 10:45am PT
Who thinks it is a good idea for an impulsive and bullying administration to obtain the voting records of every citizen?https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/29/trumps-voter-fraud-commission-wants-to-know-the-voting-history-party-id-and-address-of-every-voter-in-america/

Whatever potential benefit this would have in terms of reducing future voter fraud (which is minimal given that solutions to fraud would not require a historical record of this data), such benefits are VASTLY outweighed by the myriad ways these data can be misused:

 training artificial intelligence to better correlate actual voting behavior with other behavioral indicators, making the political marketing manipulations even more effective at manipulating people (and more tailored to keeping the present political power centers in power). I'll bet these data would be passed to Cambridge Analytica.

 list building for proactive elimination of opposition: maybe not midnight knocking down doors right away... probably more like selective enforcement of laws and embarrassing or discrediting folks through whatever methods possible as part of a longer term intimidation and marginalization strategy. Here again, the voting records and all Internet activity of every citizen would easily be available. Identifying networks of influence through emails and tweets and forum participation, identifying loved ones who might be subtly or overtly threatened, access to quotable content that can be taken out of context for whatever purpose, porn viewing activity, etc....


Scary stuff. The bottom line is that people are competitive, people want to win and rise to power or stay in power, and nothing is too sacred to be sacrificed in this quest. It is a game that nobody can quit if they want to rise to or stay in power, and the longer it is played the more we all lose.
beaner

Social climber
Maine
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:00am PT
As far as Billionaires go, a national sales tax, taxes the most those who spend the most money. Not perfect, but everything has a cost, and most likely unintended consequences.

Billionaires don't become billionaires by spending all their money... the poor spend every dollar they earn, plus some -- so with a national sales tax and no income tax the poor would pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthy. And the wealthy will continue to accumulate more and more wealth at an even faster rate than they are now.

Tax plans that don't include higher top marginal income tax rates and higher capital gains taxes will just continue the massive accumulations of wealth in the top 1% at the expense of the other 99%.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Front page WaPost, but I see very little widespread discussion of this. It has HUGE consequences for the US, both culturally and economically, where the bottom line assumption is GROWTH.


U.S. fertility rate hits a historic low, stoking fears of some demographers
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Whitey, whitey, whitey - why you so damn nervous all the time?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2017 - 11:16am PT
An example of what we could be doing for more sustainable living on this planet if our national attention was locked in partisan identity battles that undermine or preset and future prosperity:
https://www.indy100.com/article/forest-city-china-air-pollution-town-trees-liuzhou-stefano-boeri-climate-change-paris-agreement-7809736

Norton

Social climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:32am PT
Ken, the slight decline in the US birth rate is very good news, well to me anyway.

The less people competing for resources the better for future sustainability.

The less people the fewer living lives of "quiet desperation"

personally I don't buy the necessity for economic growth argument in its entirety.

mostly because the gains go very strongly to the already extremely rich

a good dose of smart socialism ala Bernie but with significant moderations makes sense

the biggest threat to a better life for most Americans is not terrorism, it is the Republican Party
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:38am PT
For a minute, just forget about healthcare, politics, parties, partisanship, consensus, compromise. disagreement, immigration and so on. Forget about Russians, Hillary, collusion, corruption, emoluments. Intelligence. Just for a second or two.

Put aside differences of opinion for a moment. Let us just focus on one person.

Trump is an assh0le. Period. A braggart. A sociopath. From cheating people who have done work for him (one does not amass that many lawsuits, either as plaintiff or defendant, if one is on the up and up) to inciting hatred and sowing division. The guy sucks donkey d*ck. He has no class, and it shows.

Just take a minute to think about it - his actions, words, demeanor.

How some people cannot see the guy is the back end of a baboon is beyond me. Well, not really, something about a sucker being born every minute.

EDIT
I have made an ass of myself more than once, but I always recognize it and apologize, sincerely. This guy does not know what the word 'sorry' is unless he is crying for an apology from somebody else.

And no I am not crying nor am I a snowflake. I just see the obvious with open eyes, no blinders or rose-tinted glasses. At the end of the day, short of a nuclear war, what Trump does isn't going to affect me all that much, if at all. But I cannot help but think about and pity the people he does affect.
Norton

Social climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
Good post Somebody!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jun 30, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
the biggest threat to a better life for most Americans is not terrorism, it is the Republican Party

The fact that you can assert that with a straight face explains SO much.

And...

ECHO

Echo

echo

ech....
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 30, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
It's pretty convoluted Moose, but the x axis is in units of percent change in the average income for the top 1% compared to 1979 average income for the top 1%. Yikes, but it works.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 30, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
Bad Bolger look at the history of the cumulative damage done to society every time sum republic hair gets in!
From Ronnie ray gun to both those pubic-hair-bushes, the society , in real numbers, lost its footing falling to depravity . . .
(what' that? was then what's to blame for Allowing for the intern to get on her knees? Oh please that went on before, and he wasn't tappin' hitlery anymore by then)

till now when we have a rapist fascist totalitarian lovin' Phuket in the Red's house!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
the mad butthole has spoken.

KKKatch a wave and you're slinking round the top of the world.


eenie, peenie, minee, mo

zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
have one on me, droolie

that's brown ale, not brown eye

zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 30, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
buddy buddy buddy

watch out

you're gonna get busted

for making sense


mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
The best political podcast I've ever listened to; Dan Carlin's "Common Sense," Episode 314 - Unhealthy Numbers:

http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-home-landing-page/#1497855672118-4e5d2742-633c

He looks at our health care system from the standpoint of financial efficiency (not much from the left or from the right) and calls it a scandal.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jun 30, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
Thanks Chris, how could I miss that? Well, I am relaxing by the lake. Excused? LOL

Btw, you mean, y axes, right?

What's your excuse?

Hahahahahahahaha! I 'm just glad I got some of that answer right Moose. I'm cracking open a Moosedrool to celebrate right now.

A serious question tho. Looking at this chart VVVVVVV

What happened politically between 1973 (Nixon and Ford) and approximately 1979 (under Jimmy Carter) that led to the departure of these two curves?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 30, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
Ken, the slight decline in the US birth rate is very good news, well to me anyway.

To me, as well. Otherwise, we are on an unsustainable course.

However, it is not a slight decline, and it is not new:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/29/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/

the drop since about 1960 is about 75%! And this is largely linear.

The teen birth rate in the U.S. is at a record low, dropping below 25 births per 1,000 teen females for the first time since the government began collecting consistent data on births to teens ages 15-19, according to a new report from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Nonwhite and younger teens have led the way in declining birth rates in recent years. Since the most recent peak in 2007, the birth rate among all teens has dropped by 42%. The declines among Hispanic (50%), Asian or Pacific Islander (48%) and black (44%) teens have outpaced this national average, while the decline among white teens (36%) has been somewhat more modest
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
skreidc: i've always had the same question when viewing that chart... i've never seen anyone give a good explanation as to why there is such a perfect break, at that point in history, either...

only theory i have is that it was related to the nixon shock and the transitioning of the american dollar from commodity money to fiat money. this transition happened between 1971 to 1973.

that said while i have vague hand wavy theories of how this might have affected the sudden disconnection between increases in production and the flatlining of average compensation, the history of american currency is one that has moved back and forth between fixed commodity based money and floating fiat based money for the entirety of the history of the u.s. [although from 1945-1971 the u.s. was on a gold standard], so i'm also not sure whether the connection is just either coincidental or whether both are related to something even deeper...



anyway, i too would be interested in a good theory...
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:34pm PT
^^^^

maybe... and likely has had some effect.

still there is such a perfect break in the mid seventies and union membership only changed from 30% to 12% during the extended time frame and it was a steady decline rather than a sudden drop to boot.

so seems unlikely, to me, that it was the primary cause of whatever caused the mid 70s break...

thanks for the thought though...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jul 1, 2017 - 07:56am PT
Do we have some globalization and outsourcing charts for comparison?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 1, 2017 - 09:30am PT
I think it is pretty interesting too Nah000. Of course the tough part is discerning cause and effect. So in my mind there are really 2 points on the curve to focus on. Right around 72 or so, and around 79. If the 79 break in slope did not happen and the curve just continued on, we would not be having this conversation. Instead the slope goes negative then till about 1997 or so.

Definitely a link between unions and the slope, but I am not sure about cause and effect.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 1, 2017 - 09:59am PT
http://www.npr.org/2017/07/01/535062392/word-to-the-president-professionalism


Word To The President: 'Professionalism'


July 1, 20177:52 AM ET

Scott Simon
Commentary heard on Weekend Edition Saturday



A chorus of distinguished names from President Trump's own party have condemned his personal attack on Mika Brzezinski and Joe Scarborough of MSNBC. I'd rather not repeat the president's words, which are ugly. A number of Republicans told Trump his tweets have been beneath the dignity of the presidency.

"This has to stop," Sen. Susan Collins of Maine tweeted. "– we all have a job – 3 branches of gov't and media. We don't have to get along, but we must show respect and civility."

Based on his campaign and five months in the White House, I do not know if calls for respect, civility and dignity reach President Trump. Please let me try another word: professionalism.

I like to think New Yorkers in particular respect professionalism, when they see it in a Broadway singer, a billionaire, a politician, police officer, a street vendor, or Derek Jeter.

Professionals respect the public. They treat each other with respect. They do their jobs and don't kvetch when other professionals do theirs.

Years ago, I did a profile of New York's Mayor Ed Koch. He didn't like it, and called to tell me so, in a 10-minute harangue that was as eloquently profane as the iron screech of the No. 7 Flushing train. The mayor told me I was wrong; the critics I included in the story were crazy, and a guy from the Midwest, which is how he dismissed Chicago, couldn't possibly understand his New York charm. I told the mayor he was entitled to his opinion.

Then Mayor Koch stopped and said, "Well, I've had my say. How are you?" We each did our jobs and had a respectful, even cordial, professional reporter-and-politician relationship for years thereafter.

President Trump may insist he is not a professional politician. But Donald Trump has been a public figure for more than five decades. It is the life he chose. He's been eager to be featured in financial columns, personality profiles, talk shows, magazine covers, TV shows and gossip columns. He's shared intimate details of his life on The Howard Stern Show.

Some reporting on Donald Trump has been aggressive and fair, some of it has been simply fawning, and some of it no doubt has sometimes been wrong. But professionals do their best, shrug off critics, or even smile, and just keep on going.

A man shouldn't come to bat in Yankee Stadium and then complain when someone throws him a curve.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 1, 2017 - 10:24am PT
Professionals respect the public

Must be why NPR decided to not allow public commentary...
Nothing says respecting the public like censoring their opinions
Norton

Social climber
Jul 1, 2017 - 10:39am PT
NPR should be defunded and out of business, we don't need no stinking national radio anymore

they should report only weather statistics and national emergencies, no pseudo "opinions"
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 1, 2017 - 10:48am PT
Reuters and others did the same thing, Wilmont. They are encouraging comments on their social media sites instead.

Not a big deal, as most of the commentators are on npr twitter and npr facebook anyway. Only a tiny amount of overall comments originated after the articles and mostly by a few diehards blasting each other.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ombudsman/2016/08/17/489516952/npr-website-to-get-rid-of-comments
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 2, 2017 - 10:42am PT
Wa Post


Single payer is the biggest winner in the health-care debate


Political realities mean Republicans have basically conceded that government involvement in health care is a good thing — or, at least, a necessary thing. That wasn't the argument they were making against Obamacare eight years ago.


By Aaron Blake
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 2, 2017 - 10:44am PT
The White House is playing a game of chicken with the media

The president and his aides do not want to be the ones to pull the plug on press briefings. So the administration is making the situation so untenable that reporters just might stop covering them.

By Callum Borchers
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 2, 2017 - 10:48am PT
All-girl robotics team cannot enter U.S. for international competition

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul rejected the visa applications from the Afghan teens, who had planned to compete in a STEM challenge in Washington.

Isn't it wonderful to be "great" again?????


I get so tired of winning.


Should this sort of thing disqualify the US for the Olympics, World Cup, and any other international competitions????
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 2, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
The girls had to twice trek 500 miles to Kabul to be interviewed for their visas.

The Taliban couldn't stop them but Trump finally did.
Jorroh

climber
Jul 2, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
"
What happened politically between 1973 (Nixon and Ford) and approximately 1979 (under Jimmy Carter) that led to the departure of these two curves? "

During the Nixon administration American business (collectively for the first time) began a concerted campaign to get involved in, and influence the political process. This was partly a reaction to the political climate of the late sixties which the American business community viewed with alarm.
Deregulation, Tax policy, curbing Union power, worker rights, pushing back against environmental regulations etc. etc. etc. were all on the menu and have been pursued with vigor ever since.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 2, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
Trump is a brand, with an ugly person behind it. He could care less what happens to real people. He is marketing to a specific audience that he believes will keep him in power. It is working so far, sadly.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2017 - 10:18pm PT
sycorax, you've got two interesting issues mixed together: support for educating women vs. men, and support for sci/tech vs. liberal arts. If I am interpreting your message correctly, you are:
1. drawing attention to the fact that we are more sympathetic to these ladies because their field is robotics rather than liberal arts
2. indicating that a forum post response is inconsequential and unimportant in terms of actually supporting women in the struggle to overcome male oppression.

Responding to #2 first:
Every supportive post a person writes in these forums can be viewed as merely token efforts to address important issues. These discussions are obviously less effective than committing our time and resources and being out there in harm's way defending our beliefs. Our online discussions are limited to sharing perspectives and spreading the seeds of hope and action in others. Undermining any specific supportive posts doesn't make the world a better place (unless the confrontation stimulates a token poster to rise up and take greater action, in which case, carry on!).


#1: This discussion is directly applicable to prioritization of USA budgets for liberal arts education and professional grants... which is still on topic for national policy discussions :)

You elucidated a bias I did not immediately realize in myself. I would have a lesser reaction about the ladies from Afghanistan if robotics were substituted with music or visual arts or language arts or a history competition. I confess placing more value on subjects I deem more utilitarian in terms of professions that enable basic world functionality. I treat music and art as hobbies rather than professions, even though some people persevere to earn money in these fields. These are things we do for ourselves for their intrinsic personal value, and we need no external affirmation to support their continuance. I love music, and I play in a band that collects money for performances, but I won't try to make a living out of it. I believe English as a subject of study is very important, and having decent verbal and written communication skills has really helped me excel in my techie career. That said, I see language arts as a baseline foundation of education upon which other things are built, and I do not consider it a subject that requires intensive advancement to make the world keep turning. It is true the world would be a better place if more people were able to articulate their thoughts and feelings in verbal and written form, and parse the literal and symbolic meaning of things they read while being able to analyze arguments. I consider a secondary school education sufficient to provide that, as long as the students actually meet the secondary school objectives!


I guess my bias plays out in the Afghani ladies' robotics endeavors because I see it in the context of technological under-development in Afghanistan and the deplorable state of female education in Afghanistan. An education that enables better financial prospects is an important part of females escaping male oppression. In general, an education that includes math and science and engineering will lead to greater career and financial prospects than a liberal arts education (and I extrapolate, perhaps erroneously, to include Afghanistan). Even in our society, women in the lucrative science/tech fields are under-represented, and it is dramatically more so in Afghanistan. This is why the story is capturing attention: females succeeding in a male-dominated field in a male-dominated country where access to education is an uphill battle.... Heck, that is an uplifting story that can inspire girls across the country and help shift a culture. But the signal the USA is sending by rejecting them is to say this: stay in your place, give up, no matter how much you excel you will be oppressed. It creates the opportunity for their male-dominated society to have the last laugh saying I told you so, now get back in the kitchen and throw that dung on the fire and make me dinner. This is a global consequence of having a blatantly misogynistic President.


The whole story would be similar with ladies excelling in a liberal arts field and being rejected for traveling to an international competition. This is where my logic starts to break down (at least where I finally become aware of it breaking down). Part of me thinks: what's the point in developing a mastery of of a liberal art to the point of traveling internationally for recognition? It doesn't facilitate greater economic freedom in terms of the skills developed. But maybe it does, and maybe there are myriad other soft benefits that enrich the lives of the people involved, creating opportunities that enable them to escape circumstances of oppression.

So basically these are a lot of rambling words to say, yes you are right sycorax. Sort of. I'm still hung up on this idea: if you are trying to raise yourself out of poverty, pursuing a liberal arts education is not the optimal way to go about it. It can definitely lead to greater enlightenment and a richer life, but it seems a less pragmatic choice in a material world when your lack of material affects your survival and longevity.

Ok, I'm taking away my own keyboard now. Covfefe
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 2, 2017 - 10:22pm PT

Not separate, can it be equal?


Black Mississippi student forced to share valedictorian title with white student who had lower GPA
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 3, 2017 - 06:06am PT
I couldn't figure out what Sycorax was trying to say.

If an all boys or mixed robotics team had been denied entry we would have been just as concerned.

And of course, if an all girls art group had been denied it would have been the same concern.

The principle is a non-threatening group of people were unjustly denied a fantastic opportunity due to a policy designed to pander to ignorance and fear.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2017 - 11:02am PT
^^^^. +1 for getting to the main points succinctly!
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jul 4, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
This from Kathleen Parker at washingtonpost.com, whom I found utterly detestable until fairly recently, regarding 45's posting of the video of himself punching out "CNN":

"Never during that time or since have I ever worried that a president’s behavior would embarrass the country on the world stage. Trump’s most unpardonable offense isn’t his implied threat to members of the fourth estate but his minimizing of the nation’s stature in the world. Our allies must shudder while our enemies devise new ways to celebrate. Trump may crack himself up, but he also shatters any pretense of our seriousness as a nation. So much for that shining city on the hill, not to mention the president as leader of the free world.

"We look like fools because our president so convincingly plays one."
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 5, 2017 - 08:41am PT

Now they won't be announcing results from nuclear readiness tests.

Hiding more things, eh???
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 5, 2017 - 09:54am PT
Trumpies agitated when NPR tweets Declaration of Independence on July 4th.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 5, 2017 - 10:24am PT
dirtbag

climber
Jul 5, 2017 - 11:03am PT
President Trump will make North Korea great again.

Relax, folks, he has it all figured out.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 5, 2017 - 11:04am PT
Has Tom Tomorrow been reading this thread?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 5, 2017 - 11:13am PT
WaPost



Analysis
Trump has never had a plan for dealing with North Korea

The president’s current conundrum is twofold. First, there’s no easy solution. Second, Trump promised that there was one.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 5, 2017 - 11:14am PT
Some Trump supporters thought NPR tweeted ‘propaganda.’

It was the Declaration of Independence.

The public radio network broadcasts the Declaration every Fourth of July. It turned to Twitter this year to increase participation. The reaction was swift and angry.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 5, 2017 - 06:11pm PT

Wa Post:

Trump’s voter data request poses an unnoticed danger — to national security

By Michael Chertoff
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 5, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
What freedom of religion gets you:


Hobby Lobby fined $3 million over smuggled Iraqi artifacts

Federal prosecutors say the company has agreed to pay the fine and forfeit thousands of ancient artifacts smuggled from the Middle East that the government alleges were intentionally mislabled, bearing shipping labels that described their contents as “ceramic tiles.”
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
dismayed, ashamed, embarrassed, and quite scared too

Add "entitled" and "triggered" to that list, and you've identified the defining attributes of the liberal mind.

Except when they have all power and can cram anything down everybody's throats. Then, they are "morally fibrous."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 7, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
entitled and triggered describe Trump , a conservative...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
Trump and his folks haven't been rioting in the streets.

BTW, it seems that y'all waited a long time for the tax-return "proof" of, well, that Trump pays a LOT in taxes. Must be a let-down.

But, no problem. There's LOTS more to be triggered about.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 7, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
As long as it doesn't trigger a wall of text...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
Hey, I've got a GREAT idea about how to fix healthcare in the USA!!!

All we need to do is model single-payer after another federal agency that has proved its efficiency and competency over the last 50 years: The Postal Service.

Yippeeee! Just stand in the next post office line, watch the too-few, undermotivated, job-secure, pension-assured, union-covered, government employees. You'll have lots of time to do so, because you'll be waiting for a long time in a line during which you'll be able to dream up 20 different ways things could be handled better.

Just imagine the ER at any general hospital on a weekend or holiday evening, couple that with the morass that is the USPS, and you've got federally-run single-payer.

Ooooooo, it's gonna be so great!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 7, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
All we need to do is model single-payer after another federal agency that has proved its efficiency and competency over the last 50 years: The Postal Service.

Do you know anything at all about the USPS? Seriously -- anything?

From your posting history, I gather that you run a business. Right?

Now, suppose that ultimate control of every aspect of your business rested with the US government. And further suppose that the US government laid down the law that your business, while controlled by the government, was required to be self-sustaining.That is, long-term self-sustaining without any government subsidy.

Still with me? Okay, now let's take the next step: The as#@&%es in DC, having said you are on your own regarding sustainability, then say, "Oh, by the way, you have to do a whole bunch of expensive sh#t cuz we say you have to. What? You can't stay afloat if you do what we require you to do? Well, that's not our problem."

If you want to argue about the good/bad of single-payer (i.e. govt payer) health care, you're going to have to forget about the USPS as an example.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 7, 2017 - 10:51pm PT
USPS...most efficient postal service in the world.


http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/06/news/economy/postal_service/index.htm
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Jul 7, 2017 - 11:15pm PT
The history of any natural (government) monopoly with regard to transportation and communications is pretty clear. Roads, harbours, bridges, canals, telegraph, railroads, postal services, interstate highways, telephones, aerospace, internet. Such things a) are in most cases natural monopolies, b) as such, must be nationally regulated, c) rarely generate a profit, in and of themselves, d) often require substantial national investment, and e) usually generate substantial economic growth, but indirectly.

As for those who refuse to let a mortally ill infant die in peace...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 8, 2017 - 02:12am PT
+1^^^ for Anders.

Some of the people who complain about an echo chamber, especially it seems those with an alt-right view, are just as guilty of echoes as anybody else. You know who you are.

But let us face it, aren't many of us singing to the same choir with the same hymns. I doubt if many things posted on this forum will change anybody's mind.

As for me, I have read some links that have opened my eyes, both liberal and conservative links, so to speak (write). I try to keep an open mind. I have my biases and beliefs, but I try to be objective, unless I have had one glass of wine too many, and lately, I cannot even afford one glass. I just adopted another dog and have maxed out my budget.

From Trump's POV, the G20 went well, and while he milked Poland, I suspect many others thought he was just the dick he is. He won't change. Sit back and watch him screw America and Americans (especially those who voted for him) for his own gain. It is happening, whether some choose to see it or not. And don't ask me to prove it, the proof is in the pudding if one opens one's eyes and takes off the rose-tinted glasses. His misdeeds are easy enough to find if one cares to look.

Where are the good leaders, liberal, conservative and middle of the road? I suppose the sensible ones do not want to step in the snake pit, but we need them to. Complacency is what put Trump in power. Not to mention or forget ignorance.

Where is consensus and compromise? That has made this nation what it is. Where is common sense and critical thinking? Do people really want to watch the Game of Thrones or Reality TV Politics rather than think?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 8, 2017 - 07:51am PT

Uh, the USPS is not funded by the Federal government. They are self funded, and now after fulfilling the insane requirements of Congress have funded their pension fund for 75 years in the future. Yup, a very wasteful
organization.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 8, 2017 - 09:55am PT
Could somebody point me to where Trump released his tax returns?

BTW, Putin knows what he wants (to tool Trump).

Trump has no clue.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2017 - 10:06am PT
Just want to make sure people recognize that single payer is not the same thing as single supplier or fulfillment agency. So comparing the healthcare debate to usps is awkward at best.

The idea of single payer in healthcare is not to remove the good parts of competition from the healthcare industry, but rather to create the biggest possible bargaining block to negotiate the best deals for all consumers. This applies the collective power of citizens more effectively to challenge and balance the power of large corporations providing medical products and services in a scenario where the assumptions of a free market transaction are not met (e.g. Customer can't walk away when death or suffering of self or family members is the alternative). The hope/assumption is that the government can perform this task more inclusively of all citizens (honoring the belief that basic healthcare is a fundamental right in our modern world), and at a lower price overall as compared to for-profit insurance companies if they offered the same level of coverage.

USPS is a different story- we have the actual service provided by government employees in a field that has historically naturally lended itself to a monopoly organization for efficiency. It would be silly to send 2 or more vehicles on the same route to offer competing services when 1 vehicle would get it done. I do find it interesting how technology and our changing society have led to a dramatic increase in home deliveries so much that it is not a natural monopoly any more. One vehicle cannot deliver all the stuff on a route any more, there is stuff with different time sensitivities, different sizes and temperature requirements, etc... so it seems we do have space for competitive solutions. I would still be afraid to lose the USPS though- they offer the competitive pressure to keep down costs for baseline service even if all the private companies consolidate and then jack up prices. Further, there is a national security and integrity implication with the mail system, and I don't want this power controlled by a corporation that has fundamentally different goals and motivations than our citizenry.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 8, 2017 - 11:59am PT

Uh, the USPS is not funded by the Federal government

Correct, and at one time the Postmaster sat on the President's cabinet.

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 8, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
I do not know much about the USPS, but it looks like madbolter does. Then again, if other posters refute what MB has written, who am I to argue. But it is all just fake news.

At what point in time in history are we? On the Sundial?

EDIT

Correct, and at one time the Postmaster sat on the President's cabinet.

Hey my paternal grandfather was postmaster general of Washington State, but Teddy never gave him a seat on the cabinet.

And don't ask me if the post got delivered on time under his authority, the Cascades can be a bitch in the winter time back then. Don't blame my grandpa if a letter from Olympia did not reach Spokane on time. Blame the USPS, and the feds, because Madbolter says the feds fund the USPS, or was that the Pony Express?

Hey Madbolter, Rick Sumners and ilk, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo... ad nauseam.

EDIT

Blame Game, a new Reality TV program.

Where to start? Hmmm, how far back do we go? Every TV series must have a beginning.

Manifest Destiny, the Monroe Doctrine? Heck, we are talking ancient history.

When did corporatocracy really take over? With the robber barons, the octopus, the railroads? Oil?

Okay, to simplify matters, let's start post WW2. No too early, later. Post LBJ. Nope.

Post Tricky Dick and his lists? Nah, also a bit too ancient.

Ronnie, former governor of California? Getting close, getting warmer.

Let's start at a new dawn, and not the Dawn Wall.

Trump. He has enlightened us. His brilliance shines through like a fine light cutting through the fog. He has brought order to the universe. All hail.

He will unite America and make it great again.

I am certainly no big fan of Naomi Klein (jealousy and envy on my part, she is published far more than I am) but she has her finger on Trump's pulse. It is an erratic pulse. Could be a heart condition on Mr Trump's part.

But fear not, he will lead the US out of the fog and into the...

(Uh, this is where any Supertopian is free to finish the sentence.)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
All we need to do is model single-payer after another federal agency that has proved its efficiency and competency over the last 50 years: The Postal Service.

I wish our healthcare worked as well as the post office. My mail service is very good. It would be better if the rightwing supported it rather than trying to undermine it.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 8, 2017 - 03:55pm PT

But let us face it, aren't many of us singing to the same choir with the same hymns. I doubt if many things posted on this forum will change anybody's mind.

Sure, I don't take posting on political threads too seriously. But I don't think they are a complete waste of time. It is rare for someone to see a single post on the internet and suddenly change their thinking 180 degrees. But culture and views change over time. Pushing back against bigots may not instantly change their behavior. But if no one pushes back, the loud bigotry will normalize that behavior. Making it impolite to tell racist jokes didn't immediately stop racism, but in the long term it helps.

And I think it can help with echo chamber syndrome. I regularly read this site, which leans heavily left but has some right-wing and/or Trump supporters. And there is a different, sports related, site that I also regularly read that is dominated by republicans and Trump supporters but has some democrats/leftists.

If you look past the obvious trolling and internet related hate, it can allow you to see how others view the world. To put it diplomatically, I'm no closer to seeing things "their" way than I was before, but I think it is useful to understand what drives behavior.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 8, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
If you can't joke about yer mailman who can you joke about?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
Lawyers
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 9, 2017 - 07:15am PT
So far the Trump economy looks a lot like the Obama economy

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2017/07/Jobs_Monthly.jpg&w=1484


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/07/07/so-far-the-trump-economy-looks-a-lot-like-the-obama-economy/?utm_term=.c434d24eb355

Except for Putin-Trump, the United States is in the position of power, here.

The U.S. should be dictating terms to the Russian(s).
dirtbag

climber
Jul 9, 2017 - 08:27am PT
What a joke. Trump tweeted:

Putin & I discussed forming an impenetrable Cyber Security unit so that election hacking, & many other negative things, will be guarded..


So he's asking the perpetrator to team up with him to protect our elections.

Now we know the answer to the question, Does Trump swallow, too?


Another fine example of cleaning the swamp.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Jul 10, 2017 - 09:28am PT
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/biggest-threat-to-the-west-australian-journalist-demolishes-trump-after-g20

Chris Uhlmann, the political editor of the government-funded Australian Broadcasting Corporation, described Trump as “isolated and friendless” at the G20 leaders’ summit, and said his disastrous foreign policy had “pressed fast-forward on the decline of the United States”.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 10, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
If you can't joke about yer mailman who can you joke about

I never suspected the mailman was messing with my wife till we moved 400 miles and had the same one.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2017 - 07:12am PT
I never suspected the mailman was messing with my wife till we moved 400 miles and had the same one.

A great read:
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 07:27am PT
I wish our healthcare worked as well as the post office.

Pre-Obumblecare, my healthcare worked much better. Now it's much worse.

Regarding who pays for the USPS, you guys can dink around all you want, but it is a federal agency, and everything I said about the union, the "motivation," the pensions, and the rest is true.

http://postalnews.com/blog/2015/05/09/postal-myths-2-the-usps-is-not-a-government-agency/

Now, you might want to extol its virtues, but bang-for-buck it does NOT have! And that's typical of federal agencies. What we always get whenever the taxpayer is the "deep pocket" is waste, inefficiency, bungling, and poorer service. From the USPS to the military to SS-Medicare, and the list goes on, you see the effects of the ever-burgeoning bureaucracy.

Obumblecare was a nightmare for MOST Americans, and the relative few that "got insurance" from it are NOT really insured (as they have found out). The entire thing was force-fed us on the basis of lies that were known to be lies at the time. And now you want to trust this same pile of lunatics with even more power over the tiniest details of our lives???

You're all crazy. Flat out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 11, 2017 - 08:02am PT
You're all crazy. Flat out.

Flattery will get you nowhere, my friend. I wish I could clone my mailman. I think he's like Chinese-Filipino. He's always got a smile and a joke for me. I'd use the clones to repopulate the drones down at the PO, except for the really nice older African American lady.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 08:06am PT
Imagine Chelsea Clinton had taken Bill Clinton and campaign chair John Podesta to a meeting set up by a Chinese government intermediary who claimed to have damaging information about Donald Trump’s tax returns and said over email they were willing to share the information in a bid to defeat Trump.


Imagine this information came out mere weeks after stories revealing a major Democratic funder, acting on the behest of prospective National Security Adviser Susan Rice, had been trying to work with Chinese hackers to steal copies of Trump’s tax returns.

Imagine, during all of this, that Hillary Clinton herself had gotten on a stage and begged the Chinese government to release Trump’s tax returns. “China, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the tax returns,” Clinton said in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

Imagine that these stories were not isolated. They came alongside dozens of strange meetings between Clinton campaign aides and Chinese staffers — contacts left off security clearance forms and “forgotten” during sworn congressional testimony — and were buttressed by Clinton herself lurching toward a strangely pro-China policy and an unusual, and repeatedly articulated, affection for China’s leader.


And imagine that in a crucial stretch of the campaign, hackers backed by the Chinese government really did break into the Trump family’s systems and release a bevy of damaging financial documents in a successful effort to elect Clinton.

To simply write out this story is to strain credulity. It reads like a bad spy novel or a fevered conspiracy. Can you imagine what Fox News would be saying? What Rush Limbaugh would be saying? How deafening the calls for impeachment and investigation would be?


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/11/15950664/trump-jr-russia-meeting-clinton

Crickets on this from Pro Trump wingnuts who were set to roast Hillary on a spit.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Flattery will get you nowhere, my friend. I wish I could clone my mailman.

LOL

I'm with you regarding our particular mailman. Of course, the problem is not with individual people. The problem is with the system itself that breeds inefficiencies.

The same can be said regarding our military machine. The problems are not with the individual soldiers, the vast majority of whom are serving with the best of intentions and highest of commitments. The problems emerge with the waste that the massive beast engenders, coupled with the utter misuse of power stemming from the, well, lust for power that politicians have. "Hey, we've got this machine! Let's take it out for a drive and see what it can do. Hey, here's a Middle Eastern (or South American, or African) nation that needs a good invading."
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2017 - 08:45am PT
Pre-Obumblecare, my healthcare worked much better. Now it's much worse.

In what way?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:02am PT
I hear you, MB. Not long ago I sent my bro some important legal papers to his PO Box in Frisco - certified, registered, the whole nine yards. It came back stamped "Undeliverable"! He confronted the postmaster about it and was given the expected "we don't care cause we don't have to" response. And when my bro asked about the nine bucks I was out the phuktard just stared at him!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:11am PT
^^^^ Happens countless times.

"Hey, I'm entitled to this cushy job with sweet pension. Phuck you all!"
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Typical stuff, restate the problem X100, offer no solutions. Complaining about the mail...have another piece of low-hanging fruit. Gee, healthcare is complicated. Who knew?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:13am PT

America’s Shocking Maternal Deaths: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/americas-shocking-maternal-deaths.html

America with it's corporate ideology produces this. A little more care for the individual and much would be done.

The rate at which women die during pregnancy or shortly after childbirth has fallen sharply in many nations as maternal care has improved. The United States — and particularly Texas — is a glaring exception.

In Texas, for instance, according to a study in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology, the maternal mortality ratio — maternal deaths per 100,000 live births — doubled to 35.8 in 2014 from 17.7 in 2000. Compare that with Germany, which had 4.1 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2014.

In California, that figure fell from 21.5 in 2003 to 15.1 in 2014, but in the remaining 48 states and the District of Columbia it increased from 18.8 in 2000 to 23.8 in 2014. The United States as a whole had the second-highest maternal mortality ratio among 31 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Only Mexico had a higher figure.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:21am PT
In what way?

Well, let's see. Where to start? WoT anyone?

How about overnight premium increase of 40.02%? How about that THAT "new and improved plan" had double the deductible, twice the co-pay, and paid 80% instead of 90%? How about that the "new and improved plan" cut the number of available doctors by 2/3, my previous doctor not on the list, and no more direct visits to specialists? How about that the "new and improved" plan was no longer a small group plan but was instead an individual plan (as the small group plans were no longer available)? How about now triple (or more) the lead-time needed to get an appointment?

You want more? I could go on and on.

In short, I pay MUCH more for MUCH less, and every tiny aspect of how Obumblecare was foisted off on the public was a lie.

When Obama said, "If you like your doctor, you can keep him," he KNEW THEN, as he said it, that it was a lie. When he said, "If you like your plan, you can keep it," he KNEW THEN, when he said it, that it was a lie.

These pricks KNEW AT THE TIME that they were handing the American people over to the insurance companies on a silver platter. They intentionally stifled competition, knowing that many smaller insurers would be driven out of regional markets, making the pie both larger and sweeter for the larger insurers. And, to sweeten the pie even further, they guaranteed that insurers could not suffer loss as the result of new mandates such as no-pre-existing-conditions.

There was ZERO "reform" in the plan. It just took MOST Americans that were reasonably satisfied with the way things worked and totally phucked them over to satisfy the clamoring of the very few.

But, you know, the Rebumblecons were put into office in large part TO repeal Obumblecare, and they can't find the huevos/will to do that. Their endless "repeal efforts" when their posturing was covered by the inevitable Obama veto were just that: Posturing!

What many have said on these thread about the Rebumblecons not knowing how to govern is spot-on. Give the Demoncrats power, and they DO things with it, such as CRAMMING Obumblecare down our throats. Give the Rebumblecons power, and they thrutch around like chickens with their heads cut off. It's pathetic.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:21am PT
Typical stuff, restate the problem X100, offer no solutions. Complaining about the mail...have another piece of low-hanging fruit. Gee, healthcare is complicated. Who knew?

I have to laugh. USPS works just fine 99% of the time, but people bitch anyway.

Oh, and Trumps Russia problems keep getting deeper.

Now an email from Jr. with manafort and kushner copied states that he would "love" getting Hillary intel from the Russians. Didn't bother him that they were pawns in a Putin plot.

Good thing the swamp is being drained. President Trump University is just the guy to do it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:23am PT
So, Crankloon, you support taking people's money without giving anything in
return? Who do you work for, the Mafia or the USPS?

Dirt, 99% is a gud batting average but for nine bucks for important legal
papers I expect some accountability and a refund. Silly me.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:27am PT
Complaining about the mail...have another piece of low-hanging fruit. Gee, healthcare is complicated. Who knew?

Typical punt.

"Gee, it's complicated. So, wait. I know. Let's hand it over to the one entity that has REPEATEDLY demonstrated that it can't get the job done in cost-effective, efficient, reliable fashion. You know, let's entrust our lives and every TINY detail thereof to this entity that has REPEATEDLY demonstrated in countless ways that it does NOT have our best interest at heart."

Yeah, right.

I do NOT want mandatory waist-size measurements, fat vouchers, calorie police monitoring my Internet purchases, mandatory blood-sugar tests, mandatory health-reporting to some "review board" at the federal government, yet another MASSIVE and inefficient bureaucracy, and all the rest of the STUPIDITY that other nations have already demonstrated we can expect with the feds "doing" healthcare.

I don't trust 'em. I don't want 'em in my life. I want the IRS gone. I want the NSA to give me my privacy back. I want the healthcare plan I had four years ago. I want the government to STOP DOING THINGS that only phuck me over, cost me more, and do NOT serve my interests. Just STOP! DON'T do things. Stop!
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:37am PT
Dirt, 99% is a gud batting average but for nine bucks for important legal
papers I expect some accountability and a refund. Silly me.


Fair point, but overall if everything worked 99%, or even 80%, as it should the world would be in pretty decent shape.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:57am PT

And producing maternal deaths following the rising trend of North Korea and Zimbabwe - the American privatized health care system is low cost, isn't it?


I'm sorry to say: Most expensive in the world.

Why not choose a better and lower cost public health care system?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:15am PT
Why not choose a better and lower cost public health care system?

For sure but we are owned by the insurance companies in this country. Romney/Obama care is an insurance model from the top down so of course it is the most expensive. The people of the US forget the differences between business(trinkets) and services(health, clean air/water/environment/etc.). When capitalist business is involved in services, we all lose as a whole, of course there are the winning few < 1%, but hey we are a free country durnit!!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:30am PT
When capitalist business is involved in services, we all lose as a whole, of course there are the winning few

That's an oversimplification.

Pre-Obumblecare, there was the losing-few < 5%, but the vast majority WERE happy with their plan and their doctor.

Now almost everybody is pissed off and unhappy. Capitalism was working. The needed reform was not to entirely change-up the whole thing or make it a public plan. The needed reform concerned regulating pricing/profits on the supply side, you know: NOT allowing a syringe to cost $100!

It is entirely within the legitimate purview of the feds to regulate. In the same way that air traffic controllers are not allowed to strike, because there is such a compelling public interest that they do not, healthcare suppliers should not be allowed to gouge the market. Such regulations would have done far, far more to reduce the real costs of healthcare in this nation than the "reforms" (not!) of Obumblecare.

Furthermore, when you guys point to other socialized-medicine nations and talk about their lower costs, those lower costs are not a result of the payer-model! Those models PRESUME the sorts of cost-regulation I'm talking about.

But you can have the cost-reforms/regulations WITHOUT the single-payer payer-model and get the reform without the invasive federal government.
TLP

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Mad, it sounds like you don't just want your health plan of four years ago, you want to go back to the Pleistocene. I'm sorry, that ship has sailed. Every nation or area that has functioned like one has had an IRS or its equivalent since the beginning of history.

It's funny that people rail away about the government's intrusion into privacy when collectively we give up much more of it to business which is accountable only to maximum profits, and hardly anybody fusses about that.

Re health care, now that I'm on US single payer (Medicare), it's way less expensive and much less bureaucracy than I experienced just prior to making that switch. Its costs per unit are remarkably low considering that it's covering a very high-medical-use segment of the population. The observed empirical facts are that single payer is just plain better. Apologies to anyone who doesn't like it philosophically.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:38am PT
That's an oversimplification

You got that right! I think you get the gist of it as it really isn't all that complicated to understand when you look at cost v. benefit of such services. Try a little thinking on something like roads or public lands...

Anyway, we are owned by insurance companies and until that ends, we're fuct.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:44am PT
mb1, everyone thinks that they are a know-it-all, don't you?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:56am PT
Every nation or area that has functioned like one has had an IRS or its equivalent since the beginning of history.

Not true here. The IRS is a fairly recent invention, and we could easily do without it.

Go to a flat-tax or federal sales tax, and you eliminate 99% of the need of a Gestapo-agency like the IRS. The reason it IS so Gestapo is that it was originally designed as an agency to fight organized crime.

Such agencies, like the NSA, get started with the best of intentions and a "demonstrated need," but then they get turned against US.

Regarding giving away our privacy to corporations, we have completely control over how much we do so and in what context. Take just your browsing history, for example. There is NO need to "Google" everything and be subject to all the Google has become and does! There are other excellent search engines out there that do not track you in any way, such as Duck Duck Go.

It's one thing to choose "convenience" over privacy. That can be a bad decision, but it IS a choice. It's another thing entirely to be FORCED to be invaded. Government has power of coercion that NO corporation has!
TLP

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Cragar is right, as long as nearly all health care flows via a private insurance company market, things cannot really improve. Auto collision insurance is for the hopefully very rare occurrence, but somehow health insurance morphed from something similar, to a system to provide all of the non-disaster health care too. Big mistake.

But you can have the cost-reforms/regulations ..... without the invasive federal government.

What??? That is a sentence that make absolutely no sense. The whole reason single payer is cost-efficient is that it, by its very nature, facilitates efficient negotiation/regulation of costs. It's the splintered private system that allows for the price gouging you're complaining about. All of those middlemen and the stockholders want their cut. Regardless of one's philosophy about whether it's a good idea, fixing medical prices by law or regulatory rule is just going to be subject to the same lobbyist morass that plagues everything else, and won't work. MediUniversalCare has the ability to make a cost-favorable deal, or just buy from Canada or Singapore if it wants to.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 11:16am PT
The whole reason single payer is cost-efficient is that it, by its very nature, facilitates efficient negotiation/regulation of costs.

Your entire argument, including the bit about a morass of lobbyists, comes down to this: We cannot effectively implement reforms in a capitalist system, so we must socialize it.

There are many problems with that view.

First, that argument is like the Blob: It absorbs everything into itself. IF the argument is sound, then the federal government should do EVERYTHING, because IT and only IT can (on our behalf, of course) ensure the greatest efficiencies and best prices for every detail of our lives.

But we have endless examples of the fact that this is not the case. Even the roll-out of the healthcare.gov website reveals the fatal flaw in that perspective. Even government's hiring of PRIVATE companies is not as efficient and cost-effective as if it had not been involved in the process in the first place. My own company could have done healthcare.gov for less than 1/10 the cost, and the result would have been rolled out in 1/4 the time. Oh, and it would have worked immediately (and with valid SSL certs from the start rather than almost a year later).

Second, there are two fallacies with comparing something like single-payer in the USA and that approach in one of the European Socialist Democracies.

1) We are not a small, mostly homogeneous, population with a long history of monarchy and being sheep. What you can get to work in a commune of 50 people is NOT what you can get to work in a nation of 30-million. And what you can get to work in a nation of 30-million is NOT what you can get to work in a nation of 330-million. Things just don't "scale" well, so large-scale "socialism" MUST become totalitarian to "work" beyond a certain scale. Now, many of you seem quite content to accept "some" measure of totalitarianism, if it "works." I am not!

2) You are going to get invasive governmental involvement in any sort of "healthcare reform." YOU seem to want that invasion to be personal. I prefer to keep it corporate. It's going to be largely one or the other. Either government is going to do what its actual legitimate role is: Regulate COMMERCE, including "price-fixing" as needed to ensure no-gouging, which presumes that government actually answers to US rather than lobbyists (novel thought). Or, government is going to regulate US via such invasive measures as are already implemented in other nations. Again, you seem content with such invasions. I am not!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 11:17am PT
we could easily do without it

How would you suggest we do 'without it'?

Pay = pay at the time FOR the 'services' that are rendered or have insurance for this or get a bank loan?

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 11, 2017 - 11:55am PT
MB1 ..... Thanks for being SPOT ON.

you can't convince people, who have no clue, to wise up.

I swear they wish for the gov to pick out the shoe styles, and to make and give them jobs.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:01pm PT

No...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
How would you suggest we do 'without it'?

The "it" is now ambiguous. I was referring to entities like the IRS and NSA. I sense that you are now referring to something like insurance companies or single-payer.

I'm not suggesting that we do without "it" in that latter sense. I am suggesting that with genuine reforms, the pre-Obumblecare system could have worked very well. It was already working very well for the vast majority of Americans, and genuine reforms to get real costs down would have made a vast difference, including making genuine insurance affordable to all but the very, very poorest in this nation (the same people who already had public-payer options available to them).

Thanks, Guyman. These are "no win" arguments. I don't think of them so much as "need to win" as "share another perspective." Hopefully, over time, we achieve a sustainable consensus about how to deal with thorny problems, and perhaps (gasp) it might even make it into law.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
MB1, the it are services that money the IRS supports that US citizens benefit from on a daily basis; roads, public lands, etc. Regulations of activities on public lands and waterways also require $$ to fund analysis that is considered where moneyed politicos are absent. Humans benefit from this for their health and well being. Some humans have replaced the basic needs with $$ and then rely on science to get them through their unhealthy times that result from putting $$ over the health of land, water air and therefore their bodies...that is tangent for another thread but I hope you get what I am trying to say in terms of something like the IRS. Sure, it ain't perfect and why would anyone expect anything created by humans for humans to be perfect?

So, without the IRS, who pays for your roads? Who keeps them terrrrists from coming down your street with a 50 cal mounted on an old Landcruiser? Who will save your home from fire? etc.etc.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
Can't argue with wingnuts, folks. They think trump is doing a terrific job swamp draining.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
The meeting was about adoption....

BWA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
Yup

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/emails-show-trump-jr-excited-for-russian-offer-%E2%80%98i-love-it%E2%80%99/ar-BBEeXLy
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
I hear ya bagO'dirt and that is why I don't argue. I'd rather ask questions and let folks 'splain it to me from there perspective/opinion then go from there and look for commonalities and differences to discuss with them before I make my own statements and opinions. Doesn't always work but I try.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 11, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
MB1, the it are services that money the IRS supports that US citizens benefit from on a daily basis; roads, public lands, etc.

I answered this already. If we went to a flat-tax or, better yet, a federal sales tax, we would still be funding the federal government to much the standard of living to which it's become accustomed. But either of those approaches would render the IRS as it presently exists an unnecessary entity.

See, you guys presume that "the only way" is to keep massive federal entities in place, entities that by their very nature are oppressive and vastly costly! However, there are better alternatives that eliminate such entities. Build/maintain more roads with the savings.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
See, you guys presume that "the only way" is to keep massive federal entities in place, entities that by their very nature are oppressive and vastly costly! However, there are better alternatives that eliminate such entities. Build/maintain more roads with the savings.

I never said only way. I asked you to back up your a*#ertions and gave some real world examples of benefits to people regarding services.

Build/maintain roads with savings. That sounds good but if you had savings from these other alternatives then they'd be fat IMO. What services get taken care of by revenue and which ones by savings?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
What services get taken care of by revenue and which ones by savings?

I'm not making "assertions." I'm simply saying that these massive federal entities, such as the IRS, are unnecessary and that much money could be saved by eliminating them. There ARE ways to eliminate such entities, so why would we keep entities around that are oppressive and that cost us massive amounts of money?

Various alternative tax plans (such as a flat tax or sales tax) have been shown to be revenue-neutral or beneficial. So, if the new taxation plan is neutral, and you are thereby NOT funding an entity like the IRS, then you HAVE more money to spend than you did before. Spend that (whatever term you want to use for it) as you will, perhaps on roads. This isn't a complicated concept.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 11, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
SPUNK = pyro
same insulting demeanor
trying to slither back in to ST

Is America Great Now?
Did Trump get rid of all those brown skins hogging the surf yet?

No, he hasn't done jack shit
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 11, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
MB1 ..... Thanks for being SPOT ON.

Actually, that was pretty much a mindlessly dogmatic tract of nonsense, particularly from someone who should be able to make a rough educated guess at what the administrative burden on our healthcare system is of varying state regulations not to mention hundreds of duplicate insurance systems, workforces and payrolls. It's easily trillions of dollars annually which provide zero, zip, nada and did I say no value of any kind whatsoever.
TLP

climber
Jul 11, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
Some thread drift here but the title of the OP invites it. MB, agreement from this direction that it would be desirable to reduce the tax complexities, but reducing from 3 or 4 brackets to just one isn't the issue, it's the incredible amount of complexities and loopholes. How do these come about? Essentially, and nearly totally, from lobbying by business and individuals with a ton of money to spend hiring lobbyists and buying politicians. Including Intuit and the CPA industry. There's no lobbyist in Washington representing people in the <$20K income category, demanding a more complex tax form. So, focus on the source of the problem and how the currently established money-rules-absolutely political system perpetuates it. Fix that, and it becomes feasible to solve all these other things too.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 11, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
There ARE ways to eliminate such entities, so why would we keep entities around that are oppressive and that cost us massive amounts of money?

Like the way the combander in chief has set up the EPA? Or? Some things cost money to defend or to keep in service.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
I answered this already. If we went to a flat-tax or, better yet, a federal sales tax

In effect, a tax cut for the rich and a tax increase for the working poor.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 11, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
1) We are not a small, mostly homogeneous, population with a long history of monarchy and being sheep. What you can get to work in a commune of 50 people is NOT what you can get to work in a nation of 30-million. And what you can get to work in a nation of 30-million is NOT what you can get to work in a nation of 330-million. Things just don't "scale" well, so large-scale "socialism" MUST become totalitarian to "work" beyond a certain scale. Now, many of you seem quite content to accept "some" measure of totalitarianism, if it "works." I am not!

2) You are going to get invasive governmental involvement in any sort of "healthcare reform." YOU seem to want that invasion to be personal. I prefer to keep it corporate. It's going to be largely one or the other. Either government is going to do what its actual legitimate role is: Regulate COMMERCE, including "price-fixing" as needed to ensure no-gouging, which presumes that government actually answers to US rather than lobbyists (novel thought). Or, government is going to regulate US via such invasive measures as are already implemented in other nations. Again, you seem content with such invasions. I am not!
MB1

complete BS confirmed with one simple word;
Medicare

We already have socialized Healthcare here and people love it
and more people want it
Who isn't going to take Medicare and let it pay for your healthcare needs?

and all true conservatives want it as well
because it saves money, it is fiscally conservative
so if you don't want it, you are obviously easily manipulated and want them to charge you more because of the private insurers' lobbyist efforts have worked
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
I'm not "blustering."

You eliminate "loopholes" and shut down lobbyists BY simplifying the tax code: move toward a flat-tax or, much better, a federal sales tax.

Taxes are then collected at POS, and the only "loopholes" are that (as is already handled trivially by POS machines) tax exemptions for food items and so forth.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 11, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
So, let me get this straight: simplifying our tax system to lower the pointless overhead is good, but simplifying our healthcare system to lower the pointless overhead is bad?

P.S. Our healthcare system makes our tax system look like a model of efficiency.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
For those who disagree with a strict flat tax- would you still disagree if it were slightly modified as follows?

1) Define a realistic baseline poverty level that is regionally adjusted for cost of living (e.g. survey of housing rental market and a "market basket" of groceries and utilities). Housing cost should factor in 2 people per bedroom.

2) All income below this poverty level is tax free, and all income above it is taxed at the flat rate.


A few problems I see with flat tax, even if you carve out a refuge for low income folks:
1. Government loses the financial "carrot" mechanism of encouraging societal behaviors. Consider renewable energy tax credits for example, or mortgage interest deductions.

2. Take just the mortgage interest deduction: if this disappeared, more people would choose to rent, house purchase demand would decrease, prices fall, the attractiveness of home purchase as a growing asset would diminish and further depress the housing market, people's mortgages go underwater for another round of government bail-outs...

3. Still need a large tax analyst organization (e.g. IRS) to dig into corporate finances and determine whether they are overclaiming business expenses to show a smaller profit to pay less taxes. Can't escape taxing profits rather than sales. A grocery store can't be taxed on it's revenue in the same way as a Software-as-a-Service business. Extremely different cost of goods/services sold and profit margins. Then you get into deciding what are acceptable costs of business- should marketing expenses be deductible? What about fancy office space to maintain a high value image? What about company cars for employees? Jets for executives to fly in person to close billion-dollar deals? Where do you draw the line? Is it possible to have a strictly enforced definition of COGS (cost of goods sold) that ties closely to what is actually delivered, as opposed to the administrative costs of running the business? Is it possible to hold small and large businesses with cheap or luxury business models to all have the same standards of acceptability for percentage of profits or revenues or projected revenues to spend on different types of things that the business owners ultimately hope will help them earn money?


Madbolter- do you think these speculations are off-base? How would your support of a flat-tax take these issues into consideration? IRS can never go away. You can name it something else but roughly the same number of people are doing the same thing- they just get reallocated from sparse coverage of personal tax returns to more dense coverage of corporate returns.


Edit / p.s. : If you say "then get rid of income tax and just tax spending"... how would this work in a corporate world... hmmmm... maybe pretty well? It would naturally curb the frivolous spending that our tax deduction mindset today supports. That is good. It would encourage people and companies to be more frugal in their spending, which is good for our collective saving. It would have a mixed effect on the revenues of companies: they would have higher costs from less tax deductions, but they would be more frugal so have lower costs too; the price they offer goods might go up or down depending on whether their lower costs from frugality or higher costs from lost deductions was a bigger factor; the number of sales would go up or down depending on customer demand relation to the price.... Hard to say on this piece.


But on the surface, I might be more on board with a federal sales tax and zero income tax. Still need an agency to audit sales tax collection (this is what IRS would morph into with no real loss of employees- maybe a net increase for MUCH more activity to audit). The key ingredient in making a federal sales tax work is to have a variety of baseline items tax-free like food, medicine, a single primary residence capped at a certain rate to avoid luxury loopholes (perhaps with regional market adjustments to get fancy), single primary vehicle with a capped rate to avoid luxury loopholes.

Another approach for dealing with the baseline vs luxury items in the same category: just tax everything point of transaction, and have a mechanism reclaiming the exempt part from the government. For example, every household gets a credit for food, shelter, medicine, and clothing. This way, the seller doesn't have to keep track of what is luxury clothing or not... IRS doesn't have to define and categorize each item. Rather, just set an allowance for everyone and credit that back to each household, but collect 100% on categories that can be mixed baseline and luxury items.



Even if all this is done, does it get us anywhere dramatically different than where we are now? You have a huge auditing responsibility still (now just tracking companies' revenues to see if the sales tax payments match up). But this is easier and less prone to loopholes and exceptions... it would ultimately be easier to automate, but still have to deal with companies evading sales tax reporting and hiding income.

It would penalize USA businesses in favor of international businesses from a consumer perspective. I would just buy stuff from Canada, Asia, and Europe and have it shipped to my house, rather than buy from a USA site that charges more for USA federal sales tax. This is already a factor for people in California buying stuff from states with no sales tax to get the cheapest price on stuff.

TL/DR: These issues are not simple to explore or solve. Clamoring for a simple solution reflects a simple mind. But with time and persistence, chasing down all the implications and fixes for various problems, you could end up with a different workable solution. But it would be nearly if not more bloated as what we have now.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
How would your support of a flat-tax take these issues into consideration? IRS can never go away.

If you're saying that some agency like the Treasury Department can never go away, because the government will always be invested in revenue flow, then I totally agree. But that function need not even resemble the present IRS.

The points you raised are the most common ones levied against a flat tax. And, of course there's going to be some "baseline." Every proposed flat tax incorporates that idea. So, it's always been a straw-man to say "tax the poor."

Unless a flat tax is just going to become the same thing we have right now but with the only difference being a single tax bracket, with our same endless loopholes and deductions, it has to be a tax on pure INCOME/REVENUES rather than "profit." Thus, your points about the need of an "IRS" to oversee all these corporate (and personal) games and "deductions" go away. If you're an individual, you file the equivalent of a 1040EZ, and you're done. If you're a corporation, you file a similar form, and you're done. Upon request, you produce documentation to demonstrate that you were honest about your income/revenues. "Audits" become little more than a double-check of that one line-item.

Now, even simplifying things at that level still needs more "oversight" than is ideal, which is why I don't really "support" a flat tax. It would be better than our present system. But I believe that taxing income/revenues is really the wrong place to impose a tax, and that place does necessitate too much fine-grained government oversight. Remember that the income tax and IRS were created TO enable such fine-grained (literally punitive) oversight.

I much prefer a federal sales tax, which then would put taxes firmly into the purview of the present Treasury Department with no need of anything resembling the present IRS.

The government wants money, and it's going to ensure that it gets it. So, there is no avoiding "some" overhead on that front. But the present, literally, Gestapo IRS is way, way over the top in terms of what's needed and justifiable. A sales tax has endless advantages, not the least of which is getting the government out of every tiny detail of our financial lives.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
Putting something in all caps, literally screaming via text, doesn't make your absurd statements true.

And your own unsupported statements, including calling me names, don't contribute anything of substance to this discussion. Of course, from your posts that I've seen, contributing has not been your goal.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
But this is easier and less prone to loopholes and exceptions... it would ultimately be easier to automate, but still have to deal with companies evading sales tax reporting and hiding income.

If what you're after is anything approaching 100% compliance, then, like I "yelled," strict "efficiency" can ONLY be achieved in a truly totalitarian state. The less totalitarian you're trying to achieve, the more is going to slip through the cracks.

As it is, even with the Gestapo IRS, literally tons of income/revenue slips through the cracks. So, even throwing the resources we presently do at the problem doesn't solve the compliance problem.

Worse, at present the tax code is so absurd that we can spend piles of money as individuals and companies just TRYING to comply, and we're literally not able to do so.

Thus, I would say that "compliance" is always a moving target, but POS compliance is MUCH more likely to achieve better returns than our present approach.

Regarding how to handle tax-exempt items, POS machines already handle this just fine. Different municipalities and states already have a huge range of tax rates and exemptions. These are just programmed into the POS machines, and they just work. States, for example, are not pouring comparable amounts of money into "enforcement" as 1/50 of the IRS! They presume that the POS machines work, they rely upon "mostly" compliance of businesses, they do spot-checking, and they call it good.

No reason for the feds to not take the same attitude and approach.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 11, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
^^
Says the expert who sat on his hands the last election, allowing the GOP geniuses into office so they can ram this hideous bill down the public's throat in private, knowing their dim-witted leader who hasn't read three words of it will sign it.

All this endless chatter is meaningless without a plan to get people elected who will support meaningful healthcare reform. Otherwise, its just science fiction.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 11, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
Says the expert who sat on his hands the last election, allowing the GOP geniuses into office so they can ram this hideous bill down the public's throat in private, knowing their dim-witted leader who hasn't read three words of it will sign it.

LOL!

Says the genius who KNEW that his gal could not lose and so expected half this nation to drink the insanity Kool-Aid along with his proposed criminal in chief. Didn't happen. Bwhahaha

My "dim-witted leader" got me Gorsuch on the court. I'm pretty happy about that at present, regardless of the many other things Drumf will certainly fail to get done.

Regarding "dim-witted," you mean, "Like with a cloth?" Hehehehe

Of note is that I didn't put the Rebumblecon Congress into place, and THEY are the much bigger problem. Drumf can't even get ANY tax-reform through those idiots.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 11, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
madbolter... I know you are....but what am I...?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2017 - 12:49am PT
Madbolter, you are dismissing the issue of sales tax accounting and auditing. If you don't have a huge apparatus to audit it, then corporations will cheat. There is no honor and integrity and "take my word for it" that will work as the basis of maintaining our federal government revenues. We need a service that is responsible for revenues internal to our country- if we can just come up with a good name for it. ;)

I have run businesses that collect sales tax from customers. The more money you collect, the more frequently you have to file forms and deposit money to the collecting agency (Franchise Tax Board of California in my case). The numbers you declare there must match up with the company accounting records. There are audits of it.

So it's not as clean and simple as you are saying. Measure and track a different thing if that better achieves a desired policy, but we still need the huge apparatus to make sure money is coming in to federal coffers. Streamlining I'm all for, but it won't be as much as you think.

And you didn't address the issue of discouraging American businesses compared to international competitors.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 12, 2017 - 06:52am PT
My "dim-witted leader" got me Gorsuch on the court. I'm pretty happy about that at present

That's all you got in the Faustian bargain? Weak sauce, shoulda asked for more.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 06:55am PT
That's all you got in the Faustian bargain? Weak sauce, shoulda asked for more.

I got ALL that I wanted. I got: Not-Hillary.

Gorsuch was icing on that satisfying cake!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 06:56am PT
And you didn't address the issue of discouraging American businesses compared to international competitors.

Hmmm... the baleful effects you describe don't seem to be the case at all in Canada, which has had a federal sales tax for decades.

I run a business in Colorado, and the forms are simple, and, yes, must match. But we're not continually audited.

You're making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 07:54am PT
Neil Gorsuch, just another corporatist bent on taking away human rights so the rich and corporations can have more rights to scam and pollute

Judge Neil Gorsuch is Republican nobility — the son of Anne Gorsuch Burford, who spent her brief tenure as President Reagan’s EPA administrator cutting staff and gutting anti-pollution regulations before resigning amidst scandal.

More than three decades after his mother’s resignation, Gorsuch now has the opportunity to wage an even more wide-ranging crusade against federal regulation. Gorsuch is President Trump’s nominee to the Supreme Court seat Senate Republicans held open until Trump could fill it. And his record suggests that he will become big business’ dream justice.

You have to pretty far to the far right to see any good in this poor choice

But I guess he goes along with the pick of the Trump Crime Family, the worst of the worst, always vote for the most possible awfulness
so you can stick it to the libs!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 12, 2017 - 07:58am PT
You have to pretty far to the far right to see any good in this poor choice

Or maybe you just dig it when Libs get pissed and furious?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:15am PT
Yes
Instead we got a Putin puppet that will go down as the worst President ever

a lying corrupt criminally inept loser that has the thinnest skin and cries about every little truth fact that's exposes him

In bed with Russia, in bed with the mob
in bed with Wall street, is a swamp monster along with his cabinet bent on destroying our Government from within
and not elected by the majority

and is a laughing stock around the world

just wait
he will be taken down
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:20am PT
Instead we got a Putin puppet that will go down as the worst President ever

Sir, you honor Franklin Pierce most highly!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:28am PT
Trump just cemented his legacy as America’s worst-ever president

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/jun/01/donald-trump-just-cemented-his-legacy-as-americas-worst-ever-president

Reilly, always a day late and dollar short
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Reilly, always a day late and dollar short

Quite right, I do tend to procrastinate and I'm a cheap batard.
I'm also guilty of not being suitably respectful of yer opinion, or The Guardian's.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:41am PT
The worst is always an opinion I suppose. Harrison was the shortest tho, clocking in at 32 days. Hard to get much accomplished in 1 month. But apparently he and his running mate Tyler were hell on wheels on the campaign trail.

Boosted by a successful military and political career, which included stints in the U.S. Congress, Ohio Senate and as U.S. ambassador to Colombia, Harrison ran for president in 1840, choosing John Tyler to run with him on the Whig Party ticket. Much to the horror of the political establishment, the two men campaigned vigorously, setting the tone for future campaigns. They employed catchy campaign slogans such as Tippecanoe and Tyler, too, and held boisterous rallies during which they handed out free bottles of hard cider housed in little log cabin-shaped bottles.

Any president (Harding) who nicknames his penis "Jerry" could hardly be called the worst president of all time.

EDIT; It suggested Harrison died of complications from campaigning to vigorously (he developed pneumonia). But a closer look suggests the lack sewage treatment/handling at the time might have been his undoing. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/science/what-really-killed-william-henry-harrison.html?_r=0

As he lay dying, Harrison had a sinking pulse and cold, blue extremities, two classic manifestations of septic shock. Given the character and course of his fatal illness, his untimely death is best explained by enteric fever. Pneumonia was a secondary diagnosis — as Harrison’s hapless doctor perhaps suspected all along.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:52am PT
I got ALL that I wanted. I got: Not-Hillary.


Yes... every little victory is welcomed.

Remember boys The President, is not really a Republican, the Wills and the McCains, the Bushes, McConnell, Ryans all hate him as much as you guys do.

And with the Democrats melting down over this latest nothing.... its all quite funny in a way. I look forward to every morning just to hear what Maxine Watters has to say and what Kookey BS Adam Shift has to say.

MB1... thanks for barbing all of these kooks here on Super Topo... they deserve it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 08:57am PT
Remember boys The President, is not really a Republican,
Correct, he is an Authoritarian Fascist

and the Republican Party bows to the King

the meltdown of the party from the Trump circus equals the meltdown of right wingers trying to deny all Russian ties


here is the untold story

the megabytes of classified intel that Flynn and others sent off to Russia for the favors Russia have done
"Russia is our friend now, they will help our security if we work with them"
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:08am PT
Apparently the "Russian ties" meme will not die among the simple-minded, even though CNN has been outed as floating the "mostly bullsh|t" story and keeping it front-and-center as if it were a real thing.

Poor CNN (and its true believers), scorned after its endless projections of a sure-Hillary win were brought to dust.

The left = mostly bullsh|t
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:12am PT
guyman proves my point. For folks like him isn't about integrity or what is best for the country, it is all about his team, partisanship at its ugliest finest.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:21am PT
Apparently the "Russian ties" meme will not die among the simple-minded, even though CNN has been outed as floating the "mostly bullsh|t" story and keeping it front-and-center as if it were a real thing.


except for the fact Jr. published his own emails showing collusion with Russia. He "loved" the idea, proof (and probably just the tip of the iceberg) your man's tran worked with Russians to get elected.

Carry on...

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2017 - 09:34am PT
MB, seriously compare the contents of Trump Jr's emails with the letter of the law from the Espionage Act. This can't be dismissed as a "meme". I put up my analysis in the covfefe thread because I didn't want to dilute this substantive policy thread to with pro/anti Trump rhetoric. While I perceive my post on that topic as analytical and fact based and quite substantive, it has more potential to trigger character attacks and Hillary comparisons in way of attempted defenses. It is about behaviors of specific people compared to national policy issues that were long ago settled (e.g. Espionage Act of 1917).
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:40am PT
Apparently the "Russian ties" meme is still being denied among the simple-minded, even though CNN has been found to have the story and keeping it front-and-center since it is the real thing.

Poor Fox (and its true believers), scorned after its endless projections of a legitimate Trump win were brought to dust.

The right = complete bullsh|t

More than 200,000 votes were denied by voter suppression in Wisconsin alone, Trump won by 20,000
Millions of votes nation wide were suppressed, FACT

so Trump only won by suppression (and Russian help in BS stories about Hillary), and the polls were correct, Hillary should have won

so that makes MB1 even more of a dupe since he can't even run on poor Hillary thought she would won line of BS

She did win, but the votes weren't counted, the election was rigged to stop Hillary, and provide the Republicans a total coup of our Gov.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:49am PT
Btw, how many dozens or hundreds of outright lies have trump and his team stated unofficially and officially (e.g., under oath or on government disclosure forms) about having no contact with Russia?

Good job swamp cleaning.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 09:55am PT
MB, seriously compare the contents of Trump Jr's emails with the letter of the law from the Espionage Act. This can't be dismissed as a "meme".

I gave you guys a taste of that very medicine regarding Hillary's email server, when I even asked you to compare the actual text of the laws as posted on the SD's website itself (links I provided) with Hillary's BEHAVIOR (not her "intent," which is nowhere mentioned in those statutes).

The perpetual response: "Ohhh, the old 'email' bit again. She was exonerated by the FBI that could find 'no evidence of intent,' so this is so over!"

"Exonerated?" Did we HEAR the same Comey speech? LOL

YOU guys don't want to systematically compare behaviors with statutes unless it's your OWN "witch hunt."

Hillary's behavior CLEARLY and obviously violated multiple records-keeping laws (some of them felonies), and even her "intent" was obvious. But you kept crying "PROVE it!"

So, I point all of that back at you now.

For the record, I despise Trump. He's an outrage on too many levels to even list! But YOU were determined to CRAM Hillary down our throats, and THAT was not gonna go. YOUR (the broad swath of die-hard Hillary supporters) refusal to do the VERY comparison you now tell me to do is what kept Hillary as candidate and is what produced what you now see.

I begged for many months, "Give me ANYBODY but Hillary." But nooooo... Hillary COULD NOT LOSE, so she HAD to be the go-to gal.

And my thinking represents millions of others! You HAD to have Hillary, and WE weren't going for that. So, you get Trump. We all get Trump. Hating it, but hating it less than the then-known criminal Hillary.

And I did get Gorsuch. Maybe I'll get one more like him before it all hits the fan.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 12, 2017 - 10:03am PT
guyman proves my point. For folks like him isn't about integrity or what is best for the country, it is all about his team, partisanship at its ugliest finest.

Cragar.... You, Sir are 100% incorrect.

I want what IS best for my country... It is about time the Democrats give up the BS theater they have been engaging in after they LOST the presidential election and get to work.
Health Care IS extremely important and by refusing to get back to business and work with Republicans... yes THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY to do things, they are doing the country HARM.

Cragar.... I 8 the republican party, BTW, those clowns have done almost nothing to help our Country and continue to do so.

Time for Vacation....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2017 - 10:32am PT
MB, Hillary isn't President now in large part because of the email scandal. I'm not a fanboy trying to dismiss it- I'm willing to talk about that separately. But frankly, the behavior of the present administration is more relevant than the behavior of the last one or the one that didn't get elected.

Pointing to what Hillary did has no bearing here. If you want to stay consistent, then Hillary should be punished for privately hosting a webserver that she mixed with her national security related work, and Trump Jr and Jared Kusher and Paul Manafort should be convicted of Espionage and have all of their assets stripped that can be tied to Trump Sr. being President.

I do see a logical reason for treating each case differently in terms of compliance with the letter of the law. Sec'y of State is a position involving extensive negotiation and management of information, regulating who has access to it and when. That information is to be managed in good faith for the benefit of the United States of America. I do believe there are times that people in that office need to communicate with others to achieve some end that is good for America, when it would not come to pass if there was full disclosure with the American public. So whether or not there is a legal mechanism for it, I believe there should be a digital-age mechanism to have informal whispered conversations. That I think was the honest intent of the private email server. I support the idea but not the execution of it. I don't think Hillary should be pilloried for that. I think we should as a nation accept that an information-aged solution for long distance "hallway whispers" is an important tool for statecraft. Some whispers need to be more quiet than others. She can be faulted for not keeping her whispers very quiet, but not for the mere existence of the whispers. So in this case the laws have not kept up with technology.

As for the case of Espionage against Trump Jr, Manafort, Kushner, and potentially others as the net widens... that is independent of modern technology changes. It is a matter of intent and what a reasonable person would know. They decided that winning the election was worth more than protecting the integrity and privacy of USA affairs, and conspired with a foreign government for their personal benefit in spite of the benefit they knew it would give to a foreign government.

In the context of this thread about policy issues, I will close with this: integrity and privacy should matter; protecting our nation and shared values (if we have any left?) should matter more than winning an election. These are the messages I would like our legal apparatus to help enforce, regardless of which parties or individuals are broken upon than law.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 12, 2017 - 10:44am PT
I want what IS best for my country...

Ha! Good one! Enjoy your vacation and I hope it isn't like the vacation you take from critical analysis of the current admin and what is happening now.

refusing to get back to business and work with Republicans
What did you think about the last 8 or so years of republican obstructionism, not just one or two bills, everything the Obama admin attempted to do was met with a wall. Mc-CON-ell stated it from the beginning as their goal, no working with the dems. But now the dems are to work with repubs??? Man, the cognitive dissonance is strong in your head eh? did you express the same dissatisfaction with the republicans not getting back to business? If so then good'onYa, if not then your statement is obviously hollow.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 12, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Guyman
what will you do when you hit 65 and are able to get the evil socialized Medicare???

and the cash Gov. freebie handouts called SS, for you jobless freeloaders

will your mind change then?, or will you just remain a hypocrite
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 12, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
Guyman
what will you do when you hit 65 and are able to get the evil socialized Medicare???

and the cash Gov. freebie handouts called SS, for you jobless freeloaders

will your mind change then?, or will you just remain a hypocrite

FRY.... don't play the IDIOT, please. Unlike some here you are at least sincere.

Of course I will apply for Medicare... It is the Law you know.

And SS? A freebee??? I have paid into that scam since I was 14...paid a lot.

I don't think Im a hypocrite at all, I just wish for the dumb ass political theater going on in DC to STOP. I voted for President Trump just because he is the wrench in the machine and he might just make it come un-glued .... something I am looking forward to.

Both political parties have let all of US down... from the Republican tough talk for the last 8.5 years to the Democrats "we know what is best for you" actions over the same period.

Both suck and all they care about is the repub vs dem score. The way I see it the score is 0 to 0.

So Democrats .... next time we vote... coming up pretty soon... run some of your people who spout this philosophy of: The RIGHT to health care (paid for by somebody else) Ever increasing TAXES, no gun rights, lead the fight to stop CC, stop fossil fuel.... you know lay it on the line in clear language.

repubs.... do the same, put the things you want out in the open...

Let the voters decide.

PS... I'm not going on vacation--- the Congress is.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
In the context of this thread about policy issues, I will close with this: integrity and privacy should matter; protecting our nation and shared values (if we have any left?) should matter more than winning an election. These are the messages I would like our legal apparatus to help enforce, regardless of which parties or individuals are broken upon than law.

We are on EXACTLY the same page. And IF a genuine investigation (not just hype from NYT, LAT, and CNN) reveals breach of law, I want them in PRISON. I'm not partisan, and I really do want the swamp drained (not that Trump is likely to contribute much or anything to that process).

What I can't just let slide is the radical double-standard of "evidence" on these threads. That was my point.

And to my mind, anything coming out of CNN at this point counts as anti-evidence, with the NYT a close second.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
[quote]with the NYT a close second.[\quote]

With statements like it's impossible to take anything you say seriously.

WBraun

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
Dirtbag is as bad as Trump who swallows every bullshIt story he's spoonfed by his beloved stoopid main loon media outlets ......
WBraun

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
You stoopid brainwashed American idiots are useless .....
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 12, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
^^ a lot are but what makes you so useful?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jul 12, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
I was just looking to post a Rock on Tuesday . . .

The real thing here is - that what a smoking duck says - gets any play at all?
he is Nanering nincompoop
with a golden line to karmic redemption but his leanings in all ways have be anti-freedom loving , and anti Isreal/USA which is where he is ded on right
If you follow the money , the oil has a stranglehold over this administration,
it's a Russia led take over ,
the government is un-staffed , no state department,
no attorney general.
total division of the proletariat
and the seeds sown for the coming overthrow
A Reichstag moment ?? In slow motion.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 12, 2017 - 02:07pm PT
"don't think Im a hypocrite at all, I just wish for the dumb ass political theater going on in DC to STOP."...

So you voted for Trump? The logic there escapes me.

Both sides suck, you do have that right.
jstan

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 02:33pm PT
And SS? A freebee??? I have paid into that scam since I was 14...paid a lot.

At the time I was retiring I did a financial analysis which weighed the net present value of all the payments I had made to SS versus my projected benefits up to my expected date of death, I'd have to find the actual spread sheet to give accurate numbers but my sheet told me

the SS system is not a scam at all. I was going to get back what I had put in,

Now,,,,,,

my calculation did not include the taxes paid by my employer. I think that flow of money goes to cover the SSA's rather minimal overhead charge of 3%. (In the defense industry overhead charges of 400% are not unusual.) The employer charge must also go to cover the SSDI program; a system of benefits for the disabled that Congress put in place with no provision for additional funding.

That said, a story:

When I went to sign up at age 65 I saw a fellow perhaps 30 who was traveling on a skateboard who was picking up his monthly benefit. Since he could travel by skateboard, something I would not attempt, I knew he was not physically disabled. And the fact he was drawing benefits at thirty while I at 65 had yet to see a dime, I knew he was not mentally disabled--- relative to me at least.

I would ask to see the calculation done by the author of the text in the above quote box justifying his statement.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
Dirtbag is as bad as Trump who swallows every bullshIt story he's spoonfed by his beloved stoopid main loon media outlets ......

Please tell us again how the moon landings were faked, with links to your unimpeachable sources.

Norton

Social climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
When I went to sign up at age 65 I saw a fellow perhaps 30 who was traveling on a skateboard who was picking up his monthly benefit. Since he could travel by skateboard, something I would not attempt, I knew he was not physically disabled. And the fact he was drawing benefits at thirty while I at 65 had yet to see a dime, I knew he was not mentally disabled--- relative to me at least.

Jstan, how do you know the 30 year old skateboard fellow was actually "picking up his montly SS benefit"? SS benefits are paid by mailed check or electronically deposited, they are not held at SS offices in the form of either cash or checks. I was told this just two months ago when I accompanied my nephew to the local SS office and overheard the SS interviewer give that answer to him when he asked how he could receive his monthly benefit. So either the SS person was lying to my nephew or he had not been informed that he could show up and pick up his check at the SS office as you say you personally observed the 30 year old. Regardless, I trust your personal interview and in depth conversation with him enabled you to judge him not qualified, and certainly not compared to you.

So why did the seemingly healthy enough to skateboard 30 get SS you may ask. Well, a part of the SS Administration deals with Disability and that means those awards go to people who have been judged to be unable to make a living in America permanently due to either physical or mental disabilities. Your example 30 year old could be able to skateboard but be retarded or mentally impaired. It is very difficult to get on Disability, virtually all initial claims are routinely rejected, it can take literally years of evaluations and hearings before Administrative Law Judges to be awarded Disability pay.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 12, 2017 - 03:48pm PT
Both employee and employer each pay 6.2% of the employee's gross pay into the SS pool.

That money is not differentiated as going specifically to pay either benefits or administrative costs.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
It is very difficult to get on Disability, virtually all initial claims are routinely rejected, it can take literally years of evaluations and hearings before Administrative Law Judges to be awarded Disability pay.

That's what the NYT would have us believe, but I call BS.

Who should we believe? NYT or CBS? They are about equally liberal. So.... What to do? What to do?

Well, CBS says:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/disability-usa/

In an interview with one disability attorney:

Steve Kroft: Out of the hundreds of people that you represented, how many of these cases involved strong cases for disability?

Jenna Fliszar: Strong cases I would say maybe 30 percent to 40 percent. And then I would say half of my cases were not deserving of disability.

And the DailySignal, another left-rag has more to say:
http://dailysignal.com/2012/10/12/able-bodied-people-defrauding-social-security-disability-program/

An 18-month investigation by a Senate subcommittee reports that in more than 25 percent of cases reviewed, evidence confirming disabilities was “insufficient, contradictory, or incomplete.” The staff reviewed 300 decisions in which individuals were awarded disability benefits by administrative law judges. A 2011 internal Social Security Administration report echoed the findings, showing a national error rate of 22 percent.

I could go on but don't have time. SS-Disability fraud is a multi-billion dollar per year industry. And it's not "hard" to engage in it! Now over 80% of disability cases are filed by the very attorneys that you see advertising on TV. They make their money when they GET a person on SSD and are paid their fees by the feds. It's quite a racket.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 12, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
I would ask to see the calculation done by the author of the text in the above quote box justifying his statement.

Jstan ...... its a scam only if the whole program gets canceled on me. I haven't put anything into a Excel just to check, but I can tell you that after i stopped being a bum around climber and became a solid full time worker... I maxed out every year for 25 years.

So you voted for Trump? The logic there escapes me.

Both sides suck, you do have that right.


Gary.... totally logical, who would you have had me vote for?

HRC???? Get real.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 12, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
For the record, I despise Trump. He's an outrage on too many levels to even list!

Nice attempt at throwing a bone to people who think.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 12, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
We are on EXACTLY the same page. And IF a genuine investigation (not just hype from NYT, LAT, and CNN) reveals breach of law, I want them in PRISON. I'm not partisan, and I really do want the swamp drained (not that Trump is likely to contribute much or anything to that process).

What I can't just let slide is the radical double-standard of "evidence" on these threads. That was my point.

And to my mind, anything coming out of CNN at this point counts as anti-evidence, with the NYT a close second.
Disengenuous

I'm not partisan

Sure
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 12, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
Sure

Whatever. You don't know me.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 12, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
Soc Sec used to have a good payout ratio. In fact in the early years the payout was almost as good as California public employee pensions still are.

But gradually the payout ratio was decreased until todays situation where it is a poor forced "investment" for anyone making above lower income.

The tax rate was increased, going to 12.4% total in 1990.
So people who worked much of their career before 1990 paid an average much lower tax rate. https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html

Also, starting in 1983 some Soc Sec benefits became taxable income.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Taxation_of_Social_Security_benefits

And it is correct that the percent of Disability fraudulent claims has increased tremendously. The SSA has been using up the temporary SS surplus at a much faster than predicted rate because the disability fund is already bankrupt and is now taking money from the pension fund.
Because the trust funds are disappearing, by 2035 there be about a 25% shortfall compared to payroll tax revenues. Whether this is fixed with a revenue increase or a benefit cut will be up to the whim of whatever "geniuses" are running the government. So it is quite an assumption whether the present payout formula will be maintained.
And that's not even including larger future shortfalls in Medicare.

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html

The number of disabled beneficiaries has risen from 1,812,786 in 1970 to 10,237,204 in 2015, driven predominately by an increase in the number of disabled workers.
https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2015/sect01.html

http://retirementblog.ncpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/disability-chart5.jpg

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/chartbooks/disability_trends/sect01.html


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 12, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
Gary.... totally logical, who would you have had me vote for?

HRC???? Get real.

Guy, there were more than two people running for office. There's always been a choice beyond Republicrat or Demopublican as long as I've been voting.

BTW, I'll bet you $1000 you get to collect SS and as for as long as you live.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 12, 2017 - 11:22pm PT
dear left sit back and relax your tweaking of the healthcare was a bust now let the other guys fix it..

Just how is that repeal and replace thingy coming along anyway?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Don't let facts get in the way of your bullshit comic/mb1.


"The facts: While the Affordable Care Act was indeed divisive, inspiring months of sharp rhetoric and dividing Congress, it did take at least some minority proposals into account. The bipartisan HELP Committee approved more than 100 Republican amendments to the bill (though some Republicans said those amendments were mostly minor).As yet, no Senate Democrats have had the opportunity to review or contribute to the current bill, and many publicly objected to both its presumed contents and the manner in which the bill is being crafted during Monday’s late-night session. In February, McConnell said that the health care bill would likely be a "Republicans-only exercise."


http://time.com/4827115/health-care-bill-senate-republicans-obamacare-criticism/
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:31am PT
Ah, Bob is back and in a mood to fight. Tipping it back a bit early in the morning, are we, Bob?

Nah, I've learned that you ONLY want to fight, not discuss.

Pass.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:50am PT
Bottom line:
Liberals are idiots and anyone with brain one should know that you can't argue/debate/converse intelligently, with an idiot...

Idiots are idiots... regardless of what 'team' they might think they belong to. They're everywhere.

But the whole evil-Russia thing has really reached a fever pitch that's got to turn off whoever is left consuming the GMO MSM. It's a level of silliness that's at least entertaining if not pathetic.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:55am PT
"Ah, Bob is back and in a mood to fight. Tipping it back a bit early in the morning, are we, Bob?"


Cheap insult...just reflects who you are....don't drink except for the beer now and then.



drF

Trad climber
usa
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:59am PT
A new week of MSM Russia BS stories

The stories last week already have holes in them.

The ones before that were tossed along with the dirty diapers.

The drooling libtards here will never learn. They love to be lied to about meaningless shet

They love the death spiral of their beloved ACA....which they aren't even using.

As far as Bob Duh goes......he's just an angry little man regardless of the news

Prance on....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:01am PT
"As far as Bob Duh goes......he's just an angry little man regardless of the news"


Coming from the little troll/clown of JT...hilarious.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:05am PT
http://www.ktvq.com/story/35873166/sen-tester-unloads-on-acting-indian-health-service-director-for-dodging-questions-about-budget

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:46am PT
It's a level of silliness that's at least entertaining if not pathetic.

No, it's actually a level of treason that you simply can't recognize.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:57am PT
"Nah, I've learned that you ONLY want to fight, not discuss.'


Coming from the little cry baby who has threaten to leave ST maybe 10-15 times.


Just do it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2017 - 09:16am PT
It's a level of silliness that's at least entertaining if not pathetic.

No, it's actually a level of treason that you simply can't recognize.

Treason eh? lol... Seriously though, can't you see how absurd this "Russian hacking" nonsense is?

It's especially an absurd accusation coming from a gov't that's done nothing but outright destroy legitimate governments around the world for decades, with tanks n' stuff, not just super-secretive 'hacking' that nobody can define....

dirtbag

climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 10:32am PT
So it seems that a campaign's collusion with a foreign power to sway an election is no big deal to many here.

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:10am PT
Hey Dirt, we all should just get over it like the rest and get back to deciding which sauce we want with our McNuggets, sweet & sour, BBQ or Russian dressing?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:15am PT
campaign's collusion with a foreign power to sway an election

Your interpretation only.

That's why it's not a big deal to many of us.

You gave Hillary and the DNC a pass for ACTUAL, demonstrated collusion. Not with a foreign power, true, but that's a fine point, given that "foreign power" has yet to be demonstrated in this present case. You "connect some dots," but that's the VERY thing you perpetually disallow when the dots point to glaring problems with your preferred candidates.

So, it's back to: "PROVE it!"

Or, better yet, how about we wait to see if indictments are produced and convictions levied? Absent those, your opinions/interpretations are, yeah well, NOT too troubling to lots of people. You know, in the same way that Hillary's felonious use of her private email server was non-troubling to y'all.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:22am PT
campaign's collusion with a foreign power to sway an election

Your interpretation only.

I have to go but will check back later

so Madbolter, go ahead and disprove the findings of 14 major US intelligence agencies

but that is just their "opinion" right, and you of course know better....

prove it, prove those agencies wrong

helpful tips: throw in some language regarding CBS. CNN, the liberal MSM, and Libtards!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:32am PT
the findings of 14 major US intelligence agencies

14 parasitic wastes of incalculable amounts of money.

Some of those same 'experts' also got us mired in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, etc for close to 20 years now....

Wouldn't believe a single thing they say without clear and presentable evidence.



Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:42am PT
Wouldn't believe a single thing they say

Unless of course....Benghazi!!!

hehe, so, from what you said, no matter what their findings, you won't believe them?

What do you qualify as presentable evidence?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:43am PT
go ahead and disprove the findings of 14 major US intelligence agencies

No need to disprove opinion and conjecture.

IF indictments emerge, then you'll have my interest. Right now, you do not, and your opinions (derived as they are from other mere opinions) have, well, frankly, ZERO weight.

You know, the same standard of PROOF you required for ALL things Hillary.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:48am PT
I so love reading the legal opinions of our resident constitutional law experts!
Where are the indictments?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:55am PT
"No need to disprove opinion and conjecture.'


Just like you did with Hillary...what a joke you are.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 11:59am PT
Well MB, I have not given my legal opinion on the matter, which matters zilch anyway.

But as far as collusion goes, we have an email that included trumps top three campaign officials, eager to meet with a Russian attorney with government connections to get dirt (presumably illegally gotten dirt) on Hillary.

Fact. Not opinion. That's all in juniors email, not fake news. Illegal? I have no idea, but it's at least extremely inappropriate and I doubt that this is the end of the story.

And, trump lied blatantly over and over again about this. You ok with that?

I always thought Hillary was very sloppy about her email handling. But I read the subpoena, and there was nothing requiring her to turn over everything to that congressional committee. I would've told them to stick it too. Also, the worry was that foreign powers would hack her server. Here, we have the presidents campaign eager to work with a hostile foreign power who hacked dnc and campaign officials accounts and used social media to manipulate the election. (The president probably knew about this, too. We don't have any evidence...yet.). See the difference?

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
What the law says and the degree to which people are held accountable to it are two entirely different things. Prior to my divorce and court experiences related to that, I had a very naive view of the legal system- thinking of lawyers and judges somewhat like software developers, using laws written in English language as the technical standard and then acting in strict accordance with it to develop a solution that embodies the standard. That is pretty far from what happens. All the legal framework is used as a veneer to spread legitimacy on top of whatever dirty and illogical human negotiations and power struggles that shape the real outcome.

Might does make right in our world.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 13, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
be serious MB, at some point you just have to face reality.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 13, 2017 - 12:57pm PT

The tragicomedy of America today:

In America everybody has something to sell. And because everybody has something to sell, people are slowly being turned into liars and thieves, blind to the fact that they are liars and thieves.

And in a world where everybody is a thief, the only sinner is the one being put in jail. And because the juridical systems in praxis is based on the principle that rich liars and thieves who are caught are being let free because they have money to hire/buy the most skilled liars among the lawyers, only poor people are being put in jail. And the richest liars and thieves are getting part of their profit from owning the prisons.

The most skilled liar and thief among the rich may even be chosen to president as in the present state of America. And still, or maybe just because of this, being admired by his followers...

And the rest of the world is following in the footsteps of America...

The tragicomedy of the world...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
All the legal framework is used as a veneer to spread legitimacy on top of whatever dirty and illogical human negotiations and power struggles that shape the real outcome.

Well said....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 13, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
Marlow pretty well nails it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
CIA is one of the most criminal intel agencies in the US govt.

And you SomebodyAnybody, are one of the most brainwashed idiots in America just like the rest of you main loon media whores in this thread .........
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
"Only the guy tuned to 732hz on his tinfoil hat from the SAR cache, turning wrenches on cop cars knows the real truth. A step-n-fetchit boy for the man, holed up in a tourist trap for 30 years, reduced to ranting bullshit on the internet between smoke breaks. It's just sad, bro."



Classic...the hypocrisy is amazing with the stooopid one.


Of all people to be dissing the government is the one who has been stealing/sucking on their tit for the last 35 years.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 03:37pm PT
Fact. Not opinion.

No. Pure opinion.

"Collusion" implies intent (unlike the laws Hillary broke). You have not demonstrated fraudulent or illegal intent. A campaign salivating at the thought of getting dirt on an opponent is HOW IT'S DONE, not illegal and not necessarily with any illegal intent. PROVE intent, or quit opining "collusion."

... we have an email that included trumps top three campaign officials, eager to meet with a Russian attorney...

Yup. "Eager" does not imply illegal, fraudulent, or espionage in fact or in intent. More opinion on your part.

... with government connections...

Irrelevant, unless you can DEMONSTRATE that actual government secrets were exchanged or intended to be exchanged. Just "knowing somebody" or even "being related" to "somebody in the government" does not imply either. More speculation on your part.

... to get dirt...

Yeah, that's the POINT of a campaign trying to undermine an opponent. It's the nature of politics! Nothing special to see here.

... (presumably illegally gotten dirt) on Hillary.

WAIIIITTTTTT!!! Stop the presses!

I thought we were STRICTLY in the realm of FACT here, with NARY an opinion to be found in your STRICTLY FACTUAL assertions!

I'm SO disappointed!

You have NO, NADA, ZERO idea what the "dirt" would consist of. And IN FACT, no "dirt" was actually exchanged at any point. So WHAT it was, where "it" originated, and whether or (presumably) not it was illegal in ANY way is entirely UNKNOWN.

You get that word? UNKNOWN.

YOU don't know the KEY thing that must be known to even START to prop up your ridiculous pile of empty assertions.

Pure fact, huh?

Actually: PURE speculation and conjecture.

Yeah, I don't think we're going to indict over the evidence that YOU have, nor will people like me lose a moment's sleep over "it".
dirtbag

climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
Lol, ok. I don't have time right now to respond to your nonsense or excuses for these as#@&%es.

dirtbag

climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
I'll leave you with this column "Bungled collusion is still collusion," from Charles Krauthammer, who is hardly a Clinton apologist:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bungled-collusion-is-still-collusion/2017/07/13/68c7f72a-67f3-11e7-8eb5-cbccc2e7bfbf_story.html?utm_term=.24701fc0d01c
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 13, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
August how much obstruction can be done...
As for ACA i say Kill it any way you can. Working people cannot afford it..the individual market is already dead. Repeal so all the regulations in it can be ripped up. Start over.

Sure. Republicans wrote a health care bill in secret that left even most Republican senators in the dark until the day they had to release it.

It removes hundred of billion of dollars of Federal spending on health care and over a period of time guts Medicaid.

You are going to get as many democratic votes for that as Obamacare got from Republicans. Duh.

Working people can't afford it so we remove hundreds of billions in Federal spending to help them out. And instead, we will have them go without insurance or give them the option of insurance-light that won't cover pre-existing conditions and/or when they actually get sick.

LOL

If only Orwell could have lived to see the modern day Republican party.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 13, 2017 - 05:53pm PT

Sure Don, sure.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 13, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
#baldfacedliarrussianstooge
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 13, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
(unlike the laws Hillary broke)

I'm no fan of the Clintons, but I wonder exactly what laws she broke? The Republicans have spent over 200,000,000 taxpayer dollars investigating the Clinton's. Where's the beef?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
Sure. Republicans wrote a health care bill in secret that left even most Republican senators in the dark until the day they had to release it.

Oh, you mean EXACTLY like the Dems that produced Obumblecare? You mean, like so opaque that it had to be shrouded in LIES that were known to be lies at the time they were uttered, like Obamacare? You mean, "We have to pass this so that we can find out what's in it?" You mean, like THAT sort of "in secret"?

Oh, wait, what the Repubs have been doing doesn't hold a CANDLE to how the Dems handled Obumblecare. So far, it's looking flat-out TRANSPARENT compared to how the Dems foisted off Obumblecare on us!

But, you know, just spread the hypocrisy around. Kumbaya. We'll just all hold hands and drink the Kool-Aid.

It removes hundred of billion of dollars of Federal spending on health care and over a period of time guts Medicaid.

Sounds GREAT to me. The feds have NO business IN this business in the first place! Put it back in States' hands, where it belongs and quit spending money we do not have!

You are going to get as many democratic votes for that as Obamacare got from Republicans. Duh.

Perfect! Tit for tat. You guys are just frothy because now the Repubs are contemplating screwing you in the SAME way you screwed them.

Working people can't afford it so we remove hundreds of billions in Federal spending to help them out.

Earth to, uhhh... whatever you are. WORKING people are the VERY ones totally screwed by the NEW TAX that Obama claimed would NEVER be levied on the working class. Remember? Obumblecare passed SCOTUS scrutiny (if that's what it was) BECAUSE it was a NEW TAX.

So, let me get your "logic" straight. "Working people can't afford to have this NEW TAX removed from them, because repealing Obumblecare would REMOVE the NEW TAX that was 'hundreds of billions in Federal spending to help them out.'"

I don't get it. How does REMOVING a massive TAX somehow COST the working class hundreds of billions of dollars? How did Obumblecare PAY for the millions of "poor" it gave "insurance" to, when the "poor" supposedly couldn't afford insurance?

Ahh... I see the problem: Pronoun trouble. You've got the "them" all confused across contexts.

You see, the real "them" IS the "working class" that got SCREWED OVER by Obumblecare, SO THAT the "poor" could get FREE MONEY.

You see (let me draw close to you, speaking in low tones as if telling a closely-guarded secret), the way it worked was that the vast MIDDLE class (the actual workers of this nation) had to cough up MORE money (much more) than ever before in the form of what was OFFICIALLY cited as a NEW TAX (remember how that worked?). THAT money was then redistributed to the "poor" so they they could "afford" their newly-minted "health insurance."

Now, once "they" (that's the ACTUAL working class) got TAXED (not had money given TO them) in order to give "them" (that's the "poor," remember) money that they did NOT earn, THAT is how the "magic" happened.

You understand now? I know. It's confusing, which is probably how you got the pronouns confused in the first place. But just remember that Obumblecare had to GENERATE money for health-insurance that IT didn't have and that "they" (that's the "poor" this time) didn't have. So, MOST people (the working class) were forced to cough up massive amounts of money (NOT have billions given TO them) to pay for the tiny minority. THAT'S how the "magic" happened. Got it now?

Except that the "magic" never materialized, because:

1) The "poor" quickly realized that they still had to pay SOMETHING (that they had not paid before) for a bill of goods that was NOT what was promised. Namely: Obumblecare handed them what is really "catastrophic insurance" that is not usable until a gigantic deductible is paid first. But, you know, being "poor" and all, "they" (that's the "poor" again) couldn't AFFORD (despite the first word of the title of the cluster-fornication) the "insurance" (that really wasn't) that they were forced to pay for (when they hadn't been paying for healthcare before), meaning that THEY (that's the "poor" again) were getting almost as screwed as "them" (that's the working class that were paying the most for this cluster-fornication, while getting the least in return for the NEW TAX).

Whew!

2) People have FINALLY (although this was OBVIOUS from the outset) tumbled to the FACT that the ONLY entities that really benefited from this cluster-fornication were the INSURANCE COMPANIES (who lobbied hardest for it to pass).

3) People have FINALLY (although this was OBVIOUS from the outset) tumbled to the fact that the "ACA" was NEVER "affordable," NEVER "care," and NEVER "acting" on behalf of ANY of the American people.

4) The WORKING PEOPLE in this nation put the Repubs in office TO repeal this cluster-fornication (which the lame Repubs can't seem to manage to do, now that they have the SAME power the Dems had when the Dems CRAMMED this cluster-fornication down "our" (that's EVERYBODY's) throats)!

And instead, we will have them go without insurance or give them the option of insurance-light that won't cover pre-existing conditions and/or when they actually get sick.

Oh, boo-hoo. They were NEVER "without insurance." Every state has some form of backstop for the WORTHY poor, and every general hospital is REQUIRED to provide medical care entirely without regard to "ability to pay."

You libs are always crying about the TINY minority not having exactly the same OUTCOME in life as "everybody else," AS IF you have ANY actual power to guarantee parity of OUTCOME!

You CAN'T, no matter how much money you throw at it. No matter how hard you try to mastermind an equal-OUTCOME society, you cannot manage it. There is never enough money. ALL you accomplish is screwing the vast majority, and, after all is said and done, you STILL don't have parity of OUTCOME.

REPEAL the entire cluster-fornication, go back to what we had before, and THEN rethink (if there's really even the need to do so). Give the STATES back the right to take care of their own citizens how they see fit. Some States will always be better off than others, just as some people will always be better off than others.

You want reform? Then, let's get serious about REAL reforms, which I've talked about before. Obumblecare was NO reform and now makes genuine reform even harder!

But trying to handle this at the federal level ONLY ensures lowest-common-denominator outcomes, while screwing the maximum number of people.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
I wonder exactly what laws she broke

How about: Virtually every records-keeping law we have a law for.

Regarding spending, I wonder how much the Dems and the left-media (in other words, pretty much "the media") have spent on the "mostly bullsh|t" "Russian connection" story.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 13, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
How about: Virtually every records-keeping law we have a law for.

Where are the indictments? After spending $200,000,000 shouldn't there be at least one indictment?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 13, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
And don't forget the murder of Vince Foster...LMAO...
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
The guy who doesn't know anything is back commenting on everything.

Is there a big line at he outhouse?

It's not hard to build one, dude, do you even have a job?


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
Where are the indictments? After spending $200,000,000 shouldn't there be at least one indictment?

I'm with you. There should have been! More than one.

But, you know how our system works. Comey carefully dances around the verbiage, saying "extremely careless," when he needed to avoid the equivalent phrase (the one actually in the text of the most relevant law): "Gross negligence."

And the far-left, DNC-pocketed, Obama-appointed Lynch isn't gonna indict, no matter what the FBI says. So, Comey chooses instead to NOT fall on his own sword (fat lot of good that ultimately did him, lol).

You know. The games.

Meanwhile, I see a whole lot of "mostly bulls|t" floated as FACT around here, with nary an indictment in sight.

Regarding citing the actual statutes, I did that repeatedly on other threads. No avail. Just my "opinion" on what those "mean." So, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You guys just can't take your own medicine on ANY front once the tables of power turn on ya.

Pretty funny, really.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
Hahaha... I love the above graphic. The ACA was not "available for review" for 35 weeks. Only a few, select individuals got to see it until it went up for vote. Even PELOSI admitted to not having a frigging clue "what was in it."

And everything else compares against "anticipated" and so on. Not "actual." Just "anticipated."

Hmmm... much like the "presumably" that's floated when talking about the "illegal dirt" that Jr. supposedly "was going to" get but ACTUALLY never did.

Bwhahahaha... you guys are a HOOT!

Sadly, I'm getting busy heading into a major demo tomorrow, so I'll have to leave you to your echo chamber. I really should just leave you peacefully to it. I sense how calming it is for you when you're able to just gather again into the group cupping formation.

;-)

Carry on!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 13, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
I'm no fan of the Clintons, but I wonder exactly what laws she broke? The Republicans have spent over 200,000,000 taxpayer dollars investigating the Clinton's. Where's the beef?

Donald claims it was accepting $1 million from Qatar for the Clinton foundation, which is way different than Ivanka getting $100 million from Saudi Arabia and the UAE for being Ivanka.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
"Collusion" implies intent (unlike the laws Hillary broke). You have not demonstrated fraudulent or illegal intent. A campaign salivating at the thought of getting dirt on an opponent is HOW IT'S DONE, not illegal and not necessarily with any illegal intent. PROVE intent, or quit opining "collusion."


Intent in a conspiracy, is an action taken in furtherance of that action.

They held a meeting with foreign nationals.

There is the intent.

" a better way to view this matter may be through the lens of campaign finance. Federal law prohibits foreign nationals from contributing any “thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any [federal] election.” The statute also says no American shall “knowingly solicit, accept, or receive” any “contribution or donation” from a foreign national in connection with an election."

More to the point Tuesday is whether Trump Jr. could be vulnerable under this federal election provision. “Those regulations define contributions to include ‘anything of value,’ and I would expect dirt on one’s opponent during a presidential election to qualify easily,” Chiraag Bains, a Harvard Law School fellow and former federal prosecutor, told me. “After all, campaigns often pay handsomely for such information. There could also be related exposure, such as conspiracy or obstruction, depending on what additional facts come out.”

Rick Hasen, a University of California, Irvine, law professor who specializes in election law, wrote that the Goldstone email exchange was “pretty close to the smoking gun people were looking for.” The president’s son “appears to have knowledge of the foreign source and is asking to see it,” he added, noting that “such information can be considered a ‘thing of value’ for purposes of the campaign finance law.”

Other legal minds contacted by The Washington Post and HuffPost had a similar assessment. “The conversation will now turn to whether President Trump was personally involved or not,” Jens David Ohlin, associate dean of Cornell Law School, told the Post. “But the question of the campaign’s involvement appears settled now. The answer is yes.”
nah000

climber
now/here
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
^^^^

+ 1000000

thanks for posting that bit by chomsky.

succinctly lays out the cynical dance that is being danced by establishment republicans, establishment democrats and the if not diagnosable, then at least border line narcisstic, president.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
“pretty close to the smoking gun people were looking for.”

Lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Put up, or shut up.

"Pretty close" is beyond lame!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
We must stand by him regardless of the evidence even when it seems overwhelming He represents my values as well as yours.

Nah, my unwavering commitment is to the evidence, not to this or that person or perspective.

You see, in this case, there is a pretty glaring absence of evidence.

Oh, there's LOTS of interpretations and conjecture and "coulda, woulda, shoulda." But the ACTUAL evidence thus-far is entirely inconclusive. Not that that fact keeps conclusions (always partisan) from being drawn.

This one is you guys' Benghazi.

I am seriously enjoying y'all churning and frothing, as you are "so close," "pretty close," to having "something." But you just....

won't....

quite....

get....

there.

You know, like Benghazi.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
Hillary...Hillary...Hillary...Hillary..echo..echo..echo..echo

Hillary lost, remember? Why do all the Trump apologists keep bringing her up?

It is all Trump now bishes. Own it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 08:58pm PT
Why do all the Trump apologists keep bringing her up?

Simple. Hang on tight now and see if this connects.

A lessor quality of evidence than what "coulda/shoulda" gotten Hillary in prison emerges about not even TRUMP, but his (obliquely now) campaign, and you guys are so desperate for ANYTHING that you invent "substance" out of worse inferences and lessor-quality evidence.

Be consistent now. The DNC's "Russian connection," heck, HILLARY'S "Russian connection" are more "solid" than the Trump campaigns', given what you've presently got as "evidence."

But you'll only "test" the "evidence" in one-sided fashion.

You know, like Benghazi.

So, yeah, Hillary is dead and buried, but the legacy of "evidence" evaluation lives on.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 13, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
You see, in this case, there is a pretty glaring absence of evidence.

The WOT all comes down to this beauty. Wow.

By the way, there's an abundance of evidence already, just in the public domain. Imagine what Mueller has. No guarantee it'll lead to impeachment, not with the GOP nutziods running the show.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 13, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
Put up, or shut up.

"Pretty close" is beyond lame!

The evidence is NOT FOR YOU, who gives a sh#t what you think?

It will be what evidence is collected and presented to a prosecutor, then adjudicated.

Lying is this administrations stock in trade. Lying to a federal law enforcement agent is a FELONY. Ask Scooter, ask Martha.

These guys are getting boxed in. Their lies are catching up to them.

Remember when they said that there were NO MEETINGS with the Russians?
Those that put that on their clearance papers, just got outed. Next, they will be answering questions under oath, with criminal outcomes for lies.

Watergate resulted in the indictment of 69 people, with trials or pleas resulting in 48 being found guilty, many of whom were Nixon’s top administration officials. Almost all were for lies.

Stay tuned.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
No guarantee it'll lead to impeachment, not with the GOP nutziods running the show.

Ah, the same level of "excuse" as for why Hillary isn't in prison.

I'll stay tuned, laughing all the way thus far.

When you guys have something genuinely substantial, I'll happily take it seriously. Trump's a whack-job, and if he goes down for something of substance, so much the better.

I dodged the Hillary bullet, and dodging the Trump one sooner than later is fine by me. That would be a pretty perfect two-fer: Neither leading candidate "makes it." Perfect!

But for now, you're grasping at straws, and it is entertaining watching the partisan desperation.

Benghazi!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 13, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
"Oh, you mean EXACTLY like the Dems that produced Obumblecare? You mean, like so opaque that it had to be shrouded in LIES that were known to be lies at the time they were uttered, like Obamacare? You mean, "We have to pass this so that we can find out what's in it?" You mean, like THAT sort of "in secret"


Actually if you knew anything thing about the ACA you wouldn't make a dumb ass statement like above.


http://time.com/4827115/health-care-bill-senate-republicans-obamacare-criticism/


"In the Senate alone, Obamacare had 80 days of transparency – 36 days of hearings, 18 days of bill markup, 26 days and 270 hours of Senate floor debate"

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thomas-jefferson-street/articles/2017-06-12/mitch-mcconnell-and-senate-republicans-insult-democracy-with-trumpcare-push
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2017 - 12:56am PT
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/26/health-reform-transparency-opaque-to-critics/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/17/AR2009101701810.html

Notice what the press was saying back in 2009? Quotes from that time could literally be lifted and inserted into this time without modification, and you'd have EXACTLY the same complaints. Except that THOSE complaints were against the process taken by Dems trying to achieve Obumblecare.

But Obumblecare didn't actually PASS until almost a year later.

The huge problem you guys have is that you are trying to compare a process that DID ultimately reach completion (so you can look back on the entire process) against something (who knows what it will ultimately become?) that has not yet reached a completion. There is nothing yet to compare against, but you insist on claiming that "it" (whatever "it" turns out to be) "will be" less transparent.

Another huge problem you have is that if it turns out that the Repub bill really amounts to just a repeal of Obumblecare, then you have NO grounds to complain about "transparency." Such a bill would really just "reset the clock," which is not even remotely comparable to the sort of sweeping and pervasive CHANGES introduced by Obumblecare.

As just one example of the scope of that change, Obumblecare was arguably the largest tax increase on the middle class since 1942. And this from a president who repeatedly promised NO new taxes on the middle class! What "largest" really means is a moving target, but there can be no denying that Obamacare was a vast sea-change in wealth redistribution and affected 1/6 of the US economy! So, just resetting the clock and eliminating that massive tax is nothing like trying to justify it in the first place!

How "transparent" does a bill need to be if it really just amounts to a repeal? That's nothing more than: "Here's Obumblecare. Almost everybody now hates it. So, now, here's NOT Obumblecare." Not much to see there, and such a thing doesn't NEED a comparable "process" nor justification. What they might do to REPLACE it is another matter entirely. But just a repeal doesn't need a whole pile of "transparency."

IF whatever "it" is gets passed into law right away now, then I'll agree that "it" was less transparent (even if it didn't NEED to be so "transparent") than the TOTAL (almost year-long) process that ultimately produced Obumblecare. But we are very early into the process thus far, and it's impossible to know how the process will ultimately develop or what will ultimately emerge (if anything) to be passed into actual law.

The early stages of several iterations of what ultimately became the "ACA" were MORE lacking in transparency to what we presently see now. As just one example of many, there were multiple closed-door meetings with high-ranking insurance representatives, and to this day we can only guess at what those discussions entailed. Our best evidence can ONLY be the baleful results of the ACA that handed us to the insurance companies on a silver platter. So, it's quite apparent that they got what they were promised, but we'll never know, will we? BECAUSE there was no transparency in how those deals got hashed out.

So, it's WAY to early to complain about a lack of transparency, particularly when compared to "the process" of the ACA as a known quantity. There have already been iterations of the Repub efforts, and there will likely be more. "The process" of "that bill" (actually iterations already) remains entirely unknown, as we cannot know the future.

Just remember that Obumblecare was ultimately passed over the objections of EVERY Republican AND 34 Democrats that voted against it. At that time Dems had spent about a year and squandered a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, ultimately requiring them to resort to shenanigans to get the mess to pass. So, what "transparency" you might tout could just as well be interpreted as incompetency, since the earliest efforts were ENTIRELY closed-door and run by JUST THREE Dem senators!

"The process" was in MANY and substantive respects not transparent, and Pelosi's "We have to pass this to find out what's in it" line will live in infamy!

This isn't over yet. About the only thing we can be confident about is that your side is presently sucking hind tit. It's your turn to be all back-a-da-bus. But your day in the sun will undoubtedly come again, so that you'll again get your chance to wield POWER and FORCE about half of this nation to do things they hate. That's what it's all about, you know. FORCING people to do things they hate. That's what "freedom" really means.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2017 - 01:30am PT
Regarding "lies," that's about the furthest thing from "dumb-azz statement" possible. The litany of lies is so carefully and thoroughly documented at this point that only a complete ignoramus or idiot could be unaware of the piles of LIES that produced Obumblecare.

How about Politifact's awarding of 2013's "lie of the year" to: "If you like your plan, you can keep it"?

Obama and his cronies repeated that lie for over a year, and EVERY time they said it, they KNEW that they were lying. This wasn't a "mistake" or, "Whoops! We sure didn't expect it to turn out that way." This was a bold-faced, in-your-face LIE that they knew was a lie every time they spewed it at the American people.

How about: "If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor"?

Another LIE that was know to be a lie all the time they kept repeating it.

How about: "We’re going to lower your premiums by up to $2500 per family per year"?

They KNEW that this was going to be a TAX on the middle class and that they ONLY way to "cover" the proposed 20-million new people HAD to be to SCREW the entire middle class in order to "distribute" the pain of the PAYING that had to be done. This was simple economics, and MANY people saw the writing on the wall even in the face of the lies.

How about: "No family making less than $250,000 a year will see their taxes increase"?

Again, a LIE from the inception, and known to be a lie every time it was repeated. Like the above point, it's basic economics: You GIVE people insurance that can't pay typical price for it, and SOMEBODY has got to pay! Well, the wealthy aren't paying for it, so WHO is??? But of course: The Middle Class, as always.

How about: "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits, now or in the future"?

Again, a LIE, and known to be a lie every time it was repeated. Obumblecare increased projected debt by about $6 trillion over ten years. And it was PROJECTED IN ADVANCE by the CBO that this would necessarily be the result! Even as Obama was repeating this LIE, he knew it was a lie.

How about: "I will sign a universal healthcare bill into law that covers every American"?

Another LIE, and known to be a lie every time it was repeated. Again, the CBO had PROJECTED IN ADVANCE that Obumblecare would not actually "insure" the millions of new "poor" people touted by the plan. And we have SEEN exactly what the CBO projected before the passage of Obumblecare: Most of the "newly insured" are not actually INSURED! They were "covered" by a massive, unsustainable increase in Medicaid, which is NOT insurance.

And of the relative few that got an INSURANCE plan, they are almost entirely on high-deductible plans that amount to catastrophic insurance, not usable by them for day-to-day healthcare needs. For a poor family, having a plan with a $6,000 annual deductible per-person is USELESS! They STILL end up in the ER at a general hospital to get urgent-care treatment because they STILL can't afford to go to a GP doctor!

TODAY Obumblecare doesn't cover CLOSE to "every American," and it was known at the time (because of eerily accurate CBO projections) that Obumblecare wasn't going to come CLOSE!

So, why, in the face of these and many more LIES, did Obumblecare enjoy widespread enthusiasm? Well, the answer really is simple, and ironically one of the Obumblecare architects himself orchestrated the "sales pitch" on the basis of this very simple principle:

"... the stupidity of the American voter."

[Click to View YouTube Video]

And you've just gotta love his line that essentially says: "Yeah we could tell the truth, but I'd rather have this law than not, and the truth means not."

So, there you have it. Obumblecare was lies beginning to end, DESIGNED to be lies, and entirely dependent upon the majority of American voters being STUPID enough to believe that you really can get something for nothing.

So, the BEST thing now is: Make it go away, reset the clock, and then think about the issues without being STUPID about them.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 14, 2017 - 05:04am PT
MB1, I thought you were too busy to post anymore in this echo chamber, but on this page alone your posts must have taken time.

Sadly, I'm getting busy heading into a major demo tomorrow,
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2017 - 05:31am PT
No guarantee it'll lead to impeachment, not with the GOP nutziods running the show.

They'd love to have Pence in charge, so don't bet on that.

MB1, seems like the standard of what you consider damning evidence in the case of Hillary Clinton is different than the standard you apply to Donald Trump.

Just part of the partisan game. Something never change.

The carping and bickering of political factions in the nation's capital reminds me of two pelicans quarreling over a dead fish.
-- William Tecumseh Sherman

dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 07:30am PT
At this point, I would prefer Pence too, without hesitation.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 07:48am PT
Isn't it funny how Jr. didn't mention that there was also a former Russian spy at that meeting?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/russian-lawyer-brought-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer-trump-team-n782851


Drip drip drip...it's still not to late to jump from the trump train.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:19am PT
^^ Considering Soros was 9 years old when the war broke out, and that he was a Hungarian Jew, that seems sort of implausible.

Dirtbag, I prefer Trump to Pence. Trump is such an incompetent boob that he's actually derailing the GOP agenda. Pence would get it back on track and put the rape of America in fast mode.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:32am PT
And yous guys think Repubs are clueless?

U.S. Representative David Cicilline, the top Democrat on the House of Representatives Judiciary Committee's antitrust panel, has urged the subcommittee to hold a hearing on Amazon.com Inc's plan to buy Whole Foods Market Inc.

"Amazon’s proposed purchase of Whole Foods could impact neighborhood grocery stores and hardworking consumers across America," Cicilline said in a statement. "Congress has a responsibility to fully scrutinize this merger before it goes ahead."

U.S. lawmaker calls for hearing on Amazon's Whole Foods deal
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wholefoods-m-a-amazon-com-idUSKBN19Z1LI

Whole Paycheck's market share is like 1%! That consitutes anti-trust concern?



dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:34am PT
Gary--that's the flip side of pence, for sure.


My "endorsement" of pence over trump (and I'm swallowing a lot of puke just typing those words) is that when the sh#t hits the fan he is less likely to do something rash. I also think he'd probably actually bother to read the damn intelligence briefs that are given to him.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:40am PT
Spunk, that photo is complete bullsh#t.

As a prominent political activist and supporter of left-wing causes, Hungarian-born billionaire financier George Soros has frequently been the target of smear campaigns, none more ridiculous than the claim (which first surfaced in November 2016) that he served as an officer of the Schutzstaffel (SS) in Nazi Germany during World War II.

The rumor made the social media rounds in late 2016 in the form of a black-and-white photograph of a young man — supposedly Soros — wearing an SS uniform, accompanied by this descriptive text:

.. I give you George Soros. A SS in the National Socialist German workers party. Nazi party. He served under Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler. He said it was the best time of his life. The destruction and agony around him was euphoric to him. This man was making policy with Hillary Clinton. And some of you think Trump is dangerous. Wow!

http://www.snopes.com/george-soros-ss-nazi-germany/

And, you fell for it.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:41am PT
Spunk...http://www.business2community.com/us-news/george-soros-nazi-ss-uniform-world-war-ii-viral-fake-photo-01715739#zqfwlxocZKXY1ZOr.97




guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:45am PT
REPEAL the entire cluster-fornication, go back to what we had before, and THEN rethink (if there's really even the need to do so). Give the STATES back the right to take care of their own citizens how they see fit. Some States will always be better off than others, just as some people will always be better off than others.


MB1.... agree.

This is getting to be very fun...looking forward to watching Brad Shermans and Maxine Watters heads explode almost simultaneously when they line up "the evidence" ....

When will all of you folks see this BS (all of it-Republican and Democrat) as a bad thing for our Country?

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:45am PT
The entire Right Wing echo chamber is fueled by lies, propaganda and misinformation

Whole Walls of Text are posted that from word one are baseless and misdirected

These guys search out fake News to fill their hunger for hate and division
You can feel the hate through their words and disrespect
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Guyman
If Medicare is going to be great when you're 65, why wouldn't it work for you now and the rest of the country, you paid for it through taxes, what's the difference?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:04am PT
Some States will always be better off than others, just as some people will always be better off than others.

And California taxpayers will keep bailing them out.

Why anyone is against universal single payer medical insurance is beyond my ability to comprehend. Unless, of course, you own an insurance company.

It's like tax cuts, no matter how much evidence shows otherwise, folks keep saying tax cuts bolster the economy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:12am PT
Conservative David Brooks writes best 'infantalist' Trump take down to date

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/5/16/1662868/-Conservative-David-Brooks-writes-best-infantalist-Trump-take-down-to-date

Brooks starts his article by assuaging the fears that Trump was "a budding authoritarian, a corrupt Nixon, a rabble-rousing populist, or a big business corporatist," by pointing out that "At base, Trump is an infantalist" which means he is incapable of having those attributes in any realistic fashion. He points out that most adults have 'sort of' figured out three tasks by the time they are 25. The first, how to sit still. The second, a sense of themselves. And the third, a perception of how others are thinking. Brooks said that Trump mastered none of them,

Brooks slams Trump's level of maturity. We must remember that this is the world 'leader' who has the nuclear codes.


Mentally, Trump is still a 7-year-old boy who is bouncing around the classroom. Trump’s answers in these interviews are not very long — 200 words at the high end — but he will typically flit through four or five topics before ending up with how unfair the press is to him.

His inability to focus his attention makes it hard for him to learn and master facts. He is ill informed about his own policies and tramples his own talking points. It makes it hard to control his mouth. On an impulse, he will promise a tax reform when his staff has done little of the actual work.

Trump seems to need perpetual outside approval to stabilize his sense of self, so he is perpetually desperate for approval, telling heroic fabulist tales about himself. ... He wants people to love him, so he is constantly telling interviewers that he is widely loved. In Trump’s telling, every meeting was scheduled for 15 minutes but his guests stayed two hours because they liked him so much.

But the most dangerous attribute Trump has is his inability to know what he does not know.

He is thus the all-time record-holder of the Dunning-Kruger effect, the phenomenon in which the incompetent person is too incompetent to understand his own incompetence.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:13am PT
These guys search out fake News to fill their hunger for hate and division
You can feel the hate through their words and disrespect

This is true of both sides. Not many people posting here are doing so from an objective viewpoint.

What amazes me is the blindness from both sides in that each is absolutely convinced that your viewpoint is one of superiority...

You are not fighting propaganda- you are a tool of it

As designed
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Prove it
Prove anything we on the left say is wrong
The left fights with facts, the right fights with BS and lies

What's well known is the right are the propagandists through out history

What you are saying is that the left fighting the Nazis were exactly the same,
calling them both the same is just more rightest propaganda

Us on the left fight back against the BS propaganda
the right embrace it

VVV
what lies?
And he was President, not the media

and we didn't say it was right, so your point is invalidated
c wilmot

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:16am PT
Obama spent years lying about Syria and Ukraine..


Nairy a peep from the left
c wilmot

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:24am PT
I guess I am just not as superior as you guys

Carry on..you are clearly experts
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 09:26am PT
Some people are smarter than others
some people are better skeptics, which gives them a better BS meter

I can smell a lie a mile away


and some people are just plain dumb
and these people are complete suckers for BS propaganda, as seen above
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:00am PT
There is such a thing as truth.

The truth is that Obama conned the Syrians and Ukrainians into thinking that
we'd have their backs if they rose up. That worked out well, didn't it?
Now tell us how effective it was of him to kick the N Korean can down the
street for 8 years.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:14am PT
Guyman
If Medicare is going to be great when you're 65, why wouldn't it work for you now and the rest of the country, you paid for it through taxes, what's the difference?


Fry.... My lovely young wife gets my insurance... the best insurance by the way... through the University of California via her job.

Don't know about Medicare, I will report on it once I experience it.

A thought.... what is the GD use of posting stuff from Idiots like Brooks etc.... He hates Trump.


I got a TRUTH for you guys..... Donald Trump won the election fair and square.

You need to deal with that-- and stop your constant bitching and hysterics.... you got something on him?

Prove it... lay your cards on the table.



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:18am PT
Whole Paycheck's market share is like 1%! That consitutes anti-trust concern?

Yeah, lol. And yet the Comcast/Time-Warner merger is seriously considered and not outright rejected yet.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:18am PT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:20am PT
Reilly...reality check. :-)

"But Donald Trump is in a different category. The sheer frequency, spontaneity and seeming irrelevance of his lies have no precedent. Nixon, Reagan and Clinton were protecting their reputations; Trump seems to lie for the pure joy of it. A whopping 70 percent of Trump’s statements that PolitiFact checked during the campaign were false, while only 4 percent were completely true, and 11 percent mostly true. (Compare that to the politician Trump dubbed “crooked,” Hillary Clinton: Just 26 percent of her statements were deemed false.)"

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/donald-trump-lies-liar-effect-brain-214658
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:30am PT
Laugh all you wish LOCKER and keep laughing...

When you are all laughed out please think ... LOL
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Reilly....https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/29/us/politics/fact-checking-president-trump-through-his-first-100-days.html



Sick comes to my mind.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:43am PT



locker

climber

Jul 14, 2017 - 10:41am PT


FACT: Obama is no longer President...


After 8 years of blaming bush for obamas Middle East blunders it's now all trumps fault...

Great logic
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:46am PT
"After 8 years of blaming bush for obamas Middle East blunders it's now all trumps fault...

Great logic"


Even more amazing is blaming Obama/Hillary for Don Jr taking the meeting.


Great logic.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Who started our occupations of 2 Mideast Countries?
I would blame him for the mess.

who should we blame for the War Criminality of our Torture Program?

We haven't stopped blaming Hitler for the Nazi years have we?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:04am PT
You need to deal with that-- and stop your constant bitching and hysterics.... you got something on him?

Prove it... lay your cards on the table.

Ah, the argument the pro-Watergate folks screamed for 19 months. Don't worry, it's coming, day by day.

What have you heard from Mueller? That should give you great fear.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:05am PT
I give you a young Donald Trump. At the tender age of 3 he became Reichsfuhrer SS for Adolph Hitler. He said it was the best time of his life. The chaos and destruction fed his narcissistic ego beyond his wildest dreams. And some of you think Obama is dangerous!


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:05am PT
"I got a TRUTH for you guys..... Donald Trump won the election fair and square."

WRONG
he didn't win fair and square, he cheated everyway possible
millions of Democratic votes were never counted, fact

the truth will come out

word is that someone already flipped, and leaking the info
That's how they're are finding out more about Donny Jr.'s meeting

Trump knew about it, and now we heard more about what was said
and that there were more than 3 people there
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:11am PT

Fry.... My lovely young wife gets my insurance... the best insurance by the way... through the University of California via her job.

Lol. Guy Keesee doesn't like the gubment, but sucks at it's teat.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:12am PT
"We haven't stopped blaming Hitler for the Nazi years have we?"

Actually a fair point to make... and one that likely many miss.

Do you really think a funny little drug addled man with some oratory prowess was the real force behind the Nazi regime and atrocities therin?

All humans love to place blame on singular figures when the truth is much more complex. Makes hate much easier.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:14am PT
Fry how is your fidget spinner man bun doing!!

Pyro, how's it going?

Hey, watch out for the Great Whites when you are surfing.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:18am PT
Do you really think a funny little drug addled man with some oratory prowess was the real force behind the Nazi regime and atrocities therin?


I view the world wars as a convienent way to reduce the population in the face of a populist uprise. Sadly if seems the powers at be are prepping for round three


Jul 14, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Who started our occupations of 2 Mideast Countries?
I would blame him for the mess.


I don't blame obama for Iraq or Afghanistan. I blame him for getting us involved in syria, Egypt, Ukraine, Libya etc...

His actions were a replica of bushs with predictably disastrous results . Except unlike bush- obama never sought permission from capital hill to illegally invade and occupy Syria while giving support to known terrorist groups


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:26am PT
Lol. Guy Keesee doesn't like the gubment, but sucks at it's teat.

10B.... we do what we need to do.

I think the US government falls short of doing a good job for all of US.

Just look at this mess, dood.

Do YOU think it should be trusted to provide healthcare?

be honest





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:29am PT
It provides Medicare already

so yes, it can do it
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:39am PT
Do YOU think it should be trusted to provide healthcare?

The Republicans can't be trusted to provide Healthcare
They want to repeal Medicare?
They already drilled so many holes in it to try to make it fail, and cost more.

They sabotaged ObamaCare, it could have been a lot better if they worked to fix it,
now it will fail no matter what because of all the sh#t they did to it
They have been Health care's worst enemy,

They want you to pay more, that's how they get elected, support the banksters.

You want good health care, vote out Republicans
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:46am PT


10B.... we do what we need to do.

I think the US government falls short of doing a good job for all of US.

Just look at this mess, dood.

Do YOU think it should be trusted to provide healthcare?

be honest

Yes, I do.

Here is a little anecdote for you.
I had a friend who was in Britain this spring. She came down with a bladder infection, so she went to one of the government run clinics. She was given an antibiotic, and the problem cleared up. She didn't pay a dime. The Brits pay for it, and expect that kind of medical care.
Are you saying you don't trust our government to provide competent medical services? Why wouldn't they?
How do you feel about insurance companies not paying for people with existing medical conditions?
I am not going to deny that government isn't perfect, but given the alternative, I will take it.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 14, 2017 - 11:58am PT
^^^ Very good point.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
I have read the entire 3500 page ACA twice now, I assume those arguing against it to at the very least have read a 20 page simple summary available by googling. I say this just because I like to assume we all believe we should have a pretty good idea of what we are talking about.

One of the little publicly known provisions of the ACA is that health insurance companies are now required under the law to spend at least 85% of their income on, gasp, healthcare.
Prior to the ACA it was up to the insurance regulators in each state to decide this percentage.

For example of illustration back in say 2009 the state of Wyoming said insurance companies had only to spend 50% on healthcare and could keep the rest for profit.

To date, many billions of dollars have been refunded to people in America under the ACA when the insurance companies spent less than the now minimum 85% of premium dollars on care.

I am more than willing to discuss the ACA with those here who have taken a little time and effort to understand the legislation.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 14, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
Now the number is up to 8 that were at the Donny Jr. meeting of collusion with the Russian lawyer, and she did provide more info on Hillary than they said

and days after the meeting, Trump went on the air
"Russia, if your listening, you should hack Hillary's 30,000 lost e-mails, you would be greatly compensated" or something

This is more than collusion, it is conspiracy of criminal intent
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 14, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
10b .... here is a great example. I am glad your friend needed some pills and got em.


[youtube=http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/politics/va-inspector-general-report/index.html]
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 14, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
To date, many billions of dollars have been refunded to people in America under the ACA when the insurance companies spent less than the now minimum 85% of premium dollars on care


I wonder what the GOP Senate plan has to say about this?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
I wonder what the GOP Senate plan has to say about this?

I have read only a summary of the new Senate legislation as the full is not out to the public yet

The bill says nothing about about it, so have to assume that the 85% requirement will be gone
and the individual states will be free to allow health insurance companies to keep a lot more of the premium dollars and not either spend them on the members care or refund.

Buy hey, yes, let's go back to the good old days before the ACA when the "free market" ruled!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
Buy hey, yes, let's go back to the good old days before the ACA when the "free market" ruled!

I'm glad we finally see eye-to-eye! Things were MUCH better for the vast majority of people prior to the ACA.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 14, 2017 - 04:41pm PT

I have read the entire 3500 page ACA twice now

Now if we can just get some Senators to read it...
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 14, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
Now if we can just get some Senators to read it...

And if we could actually get, you know, just maybe one or two committee hearings on something that is 1/6 of the US economy and affects almost every American.

Nah, who am I kidding. Let's ram it though congress in a matter of weeks with no committee hearings at all.

I mean, what's the worst that could possibly happen...

After all...

zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
toasted

dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 06:24pm PT


crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 14, 2017 - 06:57pm PT
Former Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson, just finished riding the 2,735-mile Tour Divide. Lousy candidate (although 1,000x better than Doofus), great guy.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 14, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
Booted up next to Governor Johnson this winter in the Taos parking lot and chatted with him. He drives a taco! Saw him later in the West Basin (gnar gnar part of Taos)- the guy rips!

Not really my type of politics but he seemed like a good guy.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 14, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
Off road and self supported. Quite an achievement.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 14, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
I didn't know about that race. Coincidentally, we were climbing in El Rito in northern NM tthis past weekend and were getting burritos before heading home. Three guys pulled in on fully loaded bikes and were describing their route, which sounded like a major undertaking. They must have been doing the race- I just looked at the map and the route goes right through El Rito.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
I have read the entire 3500 page ACA twice now

Total lying BS'er POS.

You are a drunk shi**y pants wretch....plain and simple

Fry, D-Bag, B-duh, Crnkl00n....and Nawton.

Scum of the earth hypocrites!!!
dirtbag

climber
Jul 14, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
the leg humper is back...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jul 15, 2017 - 12:49am PT
^^^^^
D-Baaaaaag.

You prolly read the entire ACA too?

Pfffft!

When's the last time you went rock climbing?

With Nawton or Crankl00n?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 15, 2017 - 08:13am PT
Seriously? My goodness are you a lobbiest or otherwise getting paid to do so?

DMT

seriously, Dingus.....just a retired guy who likes to keep a close eye on the US government
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 15, 2017 - 10:01am PT
Norton, twice? DOOD! Is yer bike broken?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 15, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
Here you go, MB:

smoking gun



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3EY8aLutbg
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 15, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
A cutting edge idea...Let's help out the struggling health insurance companies and raise the premiums on 22 million American consumers while reducing what the premiums will cover... It's all about sacrificing for the better good of America...
sempervirens

climber
Jul 15, 2017 - 03:51pm PT
Don't fall for that deliberately divisive rhetoric from Prager University in the video above! University?? Pandering to the gullible with cheap derogatory stereotypes.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 15, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
RJ: Per your sharing the Republican's thoughts on health insurance costs:

A cutting edge idea...Let's help out the struggling health insurance companies and raise the premiums on 22 million American consumers while reducing what the premiums will cover... It's all about sacrificing for the better good of America...


Heidi & I decided to make up for our insurance costs years back & bought some health insurance stocks. Currently, our struggling healthcare insurer Aetna's stock price is up 23% YTD & Anthem's stock is only up 31%.

Obviously, Obamacare has all but ruined those companies. I hope they manage to do a little better under Trumpcare, now that the foxes have control of the henhouse again;)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 15, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
A cutting edge idea...Let's help out the struggling health insurance companies and raise the premiums on 22 million American consumers while reducing what the premiums will cover... It's all about sacrificing for the better good of America...

Wait. Are you describing what Obumblecare accomplished?

Wait. I'm confused.

No. I've got it sorted out. That IS what Obumblecare accomplished. You just have the numbers wrong. That's what Obumblecare did to about 150 million Americans! It handed us to the insurance companies, that INSTANTLY raised rates, canceled plans, offered "new" plans at often double the rates for half the coverage, etc.

Yup, SCREW the vast majority to "help" the tiny minority. THAT'S the liberal utopia. Lowest common denominator of "success," here we come!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 15, 2017 - 11:56pm PT
Operation Lard- Ass
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 16, 2017 - 12:56am PT
I can't un-see that.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2017 - 07:49am PT
Alas, we are being governed by the stupid party

The Republicans are not stupid. Venal, vicious, cunning: yes. Stupid: no.

What Hunter S. Thompson said about Richard Nixon applies today to 90% of Republican politicians. I'm looking at you Ted Cruz:
For years I've regarded his existence as a monument to all the rancid genes and broken chromosomes that corrupt the possibilities of the American Dream; he was a foul caricature of himself, a man with no soul, no inner convictions, with the integrity of a hyena and the style of a poison toad. The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:37am PT
Two sides of the same exact coin......
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 17, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Trump dirty tricks A-team
Paul Manafort, Roger Stone and the deceased Lee Atwater 1985

Detailed Trump Russia Timeline
http://billmoyers.com/story/the-trump-resistance-plan-a-timeline-russia-and-president-trump/
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 17, 2017 - 09:17am PT
Norton

Social climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 09:55am PT
Happy Monday everyone!

Well, it appears John McCain's blood clot surgery has delayed the Senate Republicans' march towards passing their very own healthcare law, by a couple of weeks.

IMO, if you are a Democrat and support the ACA you should be hoping the Repubs do it, repeal the ACA and pass their version.

Why? Firstly because the implementation of their plan is going to take some time before actual people get hurt, they will delay by years throwing millions off of Medicaid.

Secondly, if the Democrats have any realistic hope of being back in control in Washington they are going to need a rare wave of public support in the voting booths in 2018 and 2020, a huge wave of anti Republican anger over the every day media hammering about 25 million losing their healthcare. The last such voting wave was in 2006 when anger over Bush's Iraq adventure gave the House and Senate to the Dems and 08 the Presidency. 20 years earlier
the rare wave struck again, giving Newt Gingrich and his Republicans the House and Senate.

SO enraging the public with anger over the effects of the Republican healthcare plan in action over the course of a couple of years is about the only way to bring the Dems back to power.
That's why I am hoping and praying, well not really that, for the Repubs to pass their healthcare.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2017 - 11:17am PT
Two sides of the same exact coin......

True, however the Democrats believe in throwing a few scraps off the table to keep the seething masses at bay.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 17, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Two sides of the same exact coin......
Total Bullsh#t
maybe you guys can prove your idiotic claim with some facts to back it up rather continuing the BS right wing Fake News story
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jul 17, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
^^FACT: ^^
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 17, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
PROVES NOTHING

Link up an article that explains it fully
Until then, you guys are just fake News propagandists
or, far left loons
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jul 17, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
but keep up the yargle bargling Fry, you're doing Dog's work here.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
Total Bullsh#t

In the words of the late, great Joe McDonnell, you could not be anymore wrong.

Both parties are beholden to the oligarchs on Wall Street. Obama was nothing more than Bush lite. What did he do to reform the system, and make it work for everyone? That's why people voted for him. Instead they got scammed. And you wonder why they voted for Trump? Watch those Michael Moore videos, he knows.

It's a choice between Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
Obama was nothing more than Bush lite. What did he do to reform the system

President Obama worked with congress to pass the first comprehensive wall street reform act
known now as the Dodd-Frank Wallstreet reform and Consumer Protection Act.

This legislation, among many other restriction is designed to prevent the abuses that lead to the 2006 financial meltdown

not surprisingly, this legislation is now under assault by the Trump Administration to weaken it

please read about it in more detail here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd–Frank_Wall_Street_Reform_and_Consumer_Protection_Act
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 17, 2017 - 04:22pm PT

It's a choice between Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Our political system is dominated by big money and leaves a lot to be desired. However...

The Republican health care legislation, as scored by the CBO, would result in 20+ million more Americans without health insurance.

The Cruz amendment will mean many Americans will no longer be able to afford insurance that covers pre-existing conditions.

Maybe that is Tweedledee to your Tweedledum.

If you are one of those 20+ million and/or one of those with a pre-existing condition, I think the party in power will make a difference.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 17, 2017 - 05:33pm PT
McCain just had a blood clot removed. That's a pre existing condition.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
Correct

And his surgery is covered because all members of congress have healthcare policies that must conform to the ACA minimum standards.

McCain is fortunate that he has the income and assets to continue buying a good policy after he votes to repeal the one he has now. Many other Americans may not be.
This is not a concern
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 17, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
This is the stoopidest bullsh!t ever ^^^^^

You Americans are such stoopid brainwashed fools .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
ugly Americans.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
Trump’s treasury secretary is hurtling toward potential debt-limit fiasco

Steven Mnuchin’s struggles to win support in Congress or the White House for his strategy to raise the federal debt ceiling are casting doubt on whether the political neophyte has the Washington clout to win approval of a measure that could be necessary to avoid a historic, market-rattling default on U.S. government debt.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
Sessions to push for police to take more cash from U.S. citizens

The attorney general said he would issue a new asset-forfeiture directive this week aimed at increasing police seizures of cash and property, a practice curtailed by his predecessor, Eric Holder Jr.


Whadda ya expect, when you make a good ol' Alabama boy in charge of the nation's police?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
Ku**shner had to update his disclosure of foreign contacts three times. Does that put him in legal jeopardy?
**
Those close to the president’s son-in-law say the omissions on his national security questionnaire were simple errors, but the document warns that those who submit false information could be charged with a federal crime and face up to five years in prison.

I figure Trump will pardon him, if the heat gets too hot.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
Vice chair of Trump’s voting commission wants to add new requirements for voting, email shows

Kris Kobach in November told the Trump transition team of a proposal to change federal law to allow stricter requirements on voter registration.


Easy to see where this is heading---the Constitutional Originalists want to limit the voting to Men who are Landowners. Perhaps one vote per acre?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
Trump administration unveils goals in renegotiating NAFTA

More than a third of U.S. exports flow to Canada and Mexico, and the announcement was being closely watched for clues as to how the administration might renegotiate the far-ranging trade pact.

This has the potential ability to crash our economy....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
Trump officials announce 15,000 additional visas for seasonal workers

The one-time increase in H-2B visas — which would be available to workers taking temporary jobs in the seafood, tourism and other industries but not to farm laborers — is a seeming about-face from President Trump’s “Hire American” rhetoric and follows heavy industry lobbying.

Great action to suppress wages of American workers, while making American Companies GReat Again!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
Simple errors...? I think the real world term is perjury... How the F could he not remember meeting with the Russians...Only Stoopid Americans believe the non-stop BS coming from Trump and his incompetent underlings...Impeach
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
Trump is the opiate (of about 24%) of the masses.

Who will cover the healthcare cost for this addiction?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 17, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
promises kept


U.S. certifies that Iran is meeting terms of nuclear deal


"the worst deal EVER"

I'm so tired of winning winning winning!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 18, 2017 - 06:38am PT
The affordable , incredible , new improved Trumpcare...? Yeah ...How is that going...?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2017 - 07:38am PT
President Obama worked with congress to pass the first comprehensive wall street reform act
known now as the Dodd-Frank Wallstreet reform and Consumer Protection Act.

This legislation, among many other restriction is designed to prevent the abuses that lead to the 2006 financial meltdown

Norton, that qualifies as sweeping a few crumbs off the table. The Democrats actually believe that capitalism can work in the long run. The Republicans know better and want to loot all they can before the house of cards collapses.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 18, 2017 - 08:54am PT
This sort of looks like what may lie ahead.

Capt. Cassidy: There was a democratic movement in Japan after the last war. What happened?
Reserve Officer Raymond: The leaders were assassinated.
Andy - Executive Officer: Well, what about the people?
Capt. Cassidy: They have no voice now…
Reserve Officer Raymond: That's right, sir. The big wage is seven dollars a week. They have no unions, no free press... nothing.
Capt. Cassidy: They do what they're told.
Reserve Officer Raymond: I'm afraid most of them believe what they're told… They've been sold a swindle, and they accept it.
(Destination Tokyo, 1943, Cary Grant, Alan Hale, Dane Clark, John Garfield, William Prince, et al)

Sort of what Trump and friends would like.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2017 - 08:57am PT
remember each STATE has special needs for different individuals and their health needs..

True, dat, but Californicators are soon gonna need Wolf Attack coverage
jess like Montanans!
Norton

Social climber
Jul 18, 2017 - 10:12am PT
well having failed to pass their own healthcare the Repubs face an embarrassing new problem

they will have to soon vote to fund the ACA again for the next fiscal year

and that means funding both the Medicaid expansion and also the exchange subsidies

double trouble - if they do their rabid base will scream and the press will kill them if they don't

what to do?....Republican school 101 .. .blame Hillary...blame the media...blame Democrats

governing is so hard...life was better when they sat in the bleachers and threw rocks at the Dems
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 18, 2017 - 10:21am PT
governing is so hard...life was better when they sat in the bleachers and threw rocks at the Dems


Norton..... so true.

Let's see where this leads to.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 18, 2017 - 11:16am PT
Trump has repeatedly broken his core campaign promise

Trump’s central pitch, redistilled and redistributed on a near-daily basis over the course of 2016, was a simple one: I am a dealmaker, and I will make deals. But what deals has he made?



Win....Win....Win......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 18, 2017 - 11:17am PT
Eighth person at meeting between Trump Jr. and Russians identified, name sent to Mueller

Ike Kaveladze, a U.S.-based employee of a Russian real estate company, was at the June 2016 meeting during which Donald Trump Jr. believed he would get damaging information about Democrat Hillary Clinton.


Turning slowly, slowly, in the wind.........
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 18, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
Worthless POS POTUS and GOP Congress try to regroup after epic failures.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-finds-that-demolishing-obama%E2%80%99s-legacy-is-not-so-simple/ar-BBEGIxM
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 18, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
Worthless POS POTUS and GOP Congress try to regroup after epic failures.
and yet, spunk/pyro/ryan loves him.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 18, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
I can't stand winning so much.


Who knew healthcare would be so difficult.



Day one we will repeal and replace.


Who is dumber, the people who believed it or the one who said it??
c wilmot

climber
Jul 18, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
I can't stand winning so much.

You are not winning anything. Nothing will change for the people until americans collectively wake up to the fact they are being played against each other.

With every day wasted arguing pointless partisan nonsense the American people continue to lose

Being offered a carrot or a stick is not winning
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 18, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
Aside from tinkering with the ACA, or passing something that looks pretty much like the ACA, there is no option besides full repeal with no replacement (the let people die on the streets alternative) or some sort of single payer system.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 18, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
Trump is killing the ACA because of the GOP's inability to do anything definitive.

They own it now. Running away like cowards is now their strategy.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
SomebodyAnybody, they've done a remarkable job, this is the only country in the world where workers consistently vote against their own best interest.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 18, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
The Repubs are blinded by greed...Inspite of having the white house and owning the rest of the government , they cannot pass any legislation proving they can't govern...Has trump tired of losing yet..?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 18, 2017 - 11:12pm PT
Trump, Putin had a previously undisclosed hour-long meeting at the G-20 summit in Germany

The second meeting, unreported at the time, took place at a dinner for Group of 20 leaders, a senior administration official said. Halfway through the meal, President Trump left his seat to occupy an empty chair next to Russian President Vladimir Putin. Trump was alone, and Putin was attended only by his official interpreter.


This defies reason. A meeting that was kept secret from US Citizens? Certainly the Kremlin knew all about it.

NO OTHER AMERICAN attended, not even the interpreter, although Putin's interpreter was there.

What was discussed for an hour? Why was this not disclosed?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 19, 2017 - 05:42am PT
I still can't figure why last admin decided it was better to make it cheaper to become a TRANSEXUAL vs WORKERS knees repaired..

Maybe knee surgery is a tricky bit of business.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Jul 19, 2017 - 07:59am PT
Trump said he will do his best to repeal Obamacare, but if the Dems force him to keep it, he'll let it fail and Dems will own it


Oh my. That pesky leadership thingy.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible.
12:01 PM · Nov 8, 2013


How the hell can the dems "force" anything? They are in the minority. Get real.
Susan
c wilmot

climber
Jul 19, 2017 - 08:44am PT
The V.A works just fine. The nonsense in nh has to do with disgruntled doctors who blamed the V.A for their own incompetence.
One of their complaints was that medical equipment THEY had ordered did not fit in the rooms THEY had ordered them for. Another of their complaints was that THIER medical equipment was poorly maintained and improperly sanitized. Whose fault is that?

They succeeded in getting a women fired over issues in which they themselves were to blame



Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 19, 2017 - 08:47am PT
https://thinkprogress.org/gop-vote-essential-health-benefits-694a83fbaaf6


Little spunk has none.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2017 - 08:51am PT
Frostie, splain to us why the wife's bro has had to phone her twice in the last year from Ontario so she could diagnose him over the phone after his repeated trips to the ER were of no avail. And not only of no avail but the incompetent bastards were actually causing him harm! I'm not saying there aren't incompetents here but it seems pervasive in Barrie.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 19, 2017 - 08:57am PT
wanna know what the highest rated healthcare in terms of patient satisfaction and administrative cost control in the US is?

Medicare - duh, single payroll government

gonna graduate high school this year?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 19, 2017 - 09:04am PT
The VA has problems for one reason

Under funding due to Republican policies
Giving tax cuts to the rich is much more important than taking care of Veterans

The Vets don't pay bribes to the Repubs to get better care, but they vote for them like idiots
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 19, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
Ryan/Spunk, why don't you go surfing? watch out for sharks.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 19, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
32 million more people would be uninsured under new Senate Obamacare repeal bill

Also, premiums would about double by 2026.

Thanks CBO, for the clarification.



Thanks, GOP, for another win!
Norton

Social climber
Jul 19, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
Even more stunning, three-quarters of the nation would live in areas with no insurers participating in the individual market by 2026 -- leaving many without an option if they did not have employer-provided or government health insurance.

*Also, premiums would about double by 2026.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/19/news/economy/senate-repeal-bill-cbo/index.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 19, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
Eighth person in Trump team meeting linked to money laundering investigation
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Jul 19, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
Imagine Trump being lost in the woods. After day two, he would be where he was on day one.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 19, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
Bottom of the barrel...http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/342700-poll-nearly-half-of-trump-voters-dont-think-trump-jr-met-with-russian
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jul 19, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
With that nice load of adipose tissue he could survive for months in the wild. Read he was riding the golf cart at European meetings, couldn't do the walking thing.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 19, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
Winemaker.... Judgemental Much ? Don was conserving his mojo for the first lady...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 19, 2017 - 09:42pm PT
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/trump%E2%80%99s-health-reform-pitch-includes-several-falsehoods/ar-AAotiEF?li=BBnb7Kz

Go Donny go...

Trump apologists don't even understand he is getting ready to screw them too.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Jul 19, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 19, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
How the hell can the dems "force" anything? They are in the minority. Get real.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 22, 2017 - 09:16am PT
GOP again hits federal retirement in latest budget plan
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 22, 2017 - 11:12am PT
BS on a 4 trillion reduction on our national debt in 6 months. We might have reduced spending slightly, but we sure haven't paid down the debt a nickel let alone 4 trillion dollars, no matter what some bait and switch accountant says.

monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 22, 2017 - 11:34am PT
Pyro sucks in twitter. No wonder he didn't give a source.

https://twitter.com/andrewrpowell?lang=en
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 22, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
http://www.crfb.org/blogs/has-debt-gone-down-12-billion-trump-took-office

4 trillion LOL


Not even close.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 23, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
This is what socialist education can look like:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/?utm_source=atlfb
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 23, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
That's the stupidest thing I've heard anyone say in years Spunk.
Our decimated middle class, our poverty stricken lower class, our youth facing a grim future, and our millions of homeless.
But everybody's happy, just the happiest they've every been.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 23, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
From Ken M's link:

"The problem facing education in America isn't the ethnic diversity of the population but the economic inequality of society, and this is precisely the problem that Finnish education reform addressed. More equity at home might just be what America needs to be more competitive abroad."

Amen to that.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 24, 2017 - 07:25am PT
Very happy with what?

Tad, pay no attention to lyin' Ryan, aka spunk/pyro.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 24, 2017 - 10:05am PT

America: Money game playing - 1-20% winners and 80% losers
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Canada: still value based with a certain eye for equality
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/24/stubbs-cat-mayor-alaskan-town-talkeetna-20-years-dies-margarita
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 24, 2017 - 10:19am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 24, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Alex Jones
ROGER STONE: What we’re hearing from the Democrats both in the House and Senate is red-baiting --

ALEX JONES: That’s on Drudge.

STONE: -- fear-mongering -- It is well beyond the point of recklessness, whether it is [Rep.] Adam Schiff [D-CA] who has maligned me or whether it is Senator Mark Warner [D-VA] or whether it is Senator John McCain [R-AZ]. But let me tell you something, Alex, these guys are pussies. They talk a tough game. “We’re going to get Roger Stone in front of the committee.” Gentlemen, ladies, I am ready, I am more than ready --

JONES: In fact, let me say this right now. Let me tell -- I’m not against gay people. OK. I love them, they’re great folks. But Schiff looks like the archetypal c*#ks@cker with those little deer-in-the-headlight eyes and all his stuff. And there’s something about this fairy, hopping around, bossing everybody around, trying to intimidate people like me and you, I want to tell Congressman Schiff and all the rest of them, “Hey listen as#@&%e, quit saying Roger and I” -- and I’ve never used cussing in 22 years but the gloves are off -- “listen you son of a bitch, what the f*#k’s your problem? You want to sit here and say that I’m a goddamn, f*#king Russian. You get in my face with that I’ll beat your goddamn ass, you son of a bitch. You piece of sh#t. You f*#king goddamn f*#ker. Listen f*#khead, you have f*#king crossed a line. Get that through your goddamn f*#king head. Stop pushing your sh#t. You’re the people that have f*#ked this country over and gangraped the sh#t out of it and lost an election. So stop shooting your mouth off claiming I’m the enemy. You got that you goddamn son of a bitch? Fill your hand.” I’m sorry, but I’m done. You start calling me a foreign agent, those are f*#king fighting words. Excuse me.

STONE: Yeah, I don’t think I have ever been in a campaign in which we disparage the patriotism of our opponents. Now, I’m not going to go there. But I think Adam Schiff has acted irresponsibly and I think he needs to be confronted with his exact words.

JONES: He’s sucking globalist dick.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 10:40am PT
sucking globalist dick.


The one true bi partisan agenda amongst American politicians
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 24, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
eah, I don’t think I have ever been in a campaign in which we disparage the patriotism of our opponents.

If that isn't a load of bullsh#t, what is?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 01:26pm PT
gee, I don't know but the Republicans did a good job on Vietnam era john kerry's "patriotism"

the never serves are good at that
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 24, 2017 - 01:36pm PT
If the mugging of Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia is a fair indicator of what is to come, the fall elections will be ugly. Cleland, a decorated veteran and triple amputee, was attacked by his Republican opponent, Rep. Saxby Chambliss, "for breaking his oath to protect and defend the Constitution."

Shades of Lee Atwater, the fabled Republican cutthroat politico who helped pilot the first President Bush to victory. But even Atwater might have hesitated before going after a man who lost both legs and an arm in the service of his country. Chambliss did not participate in Vietnam. He had a bad knee, he told columnist Mark Shields, who was the first to call national attention to Cleland's bizarre situation -- veterans whose war wounds confine them to wheelchairs are often given a pass on patriotism, especially by those who never wore the uniform.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 24, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
Gee, kinda limiting...so if you're in uniform and there's no war, what, you get 1/2 credit?

Silly.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 24, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
Can't disagree with that. However, I know several elected officials who ran and served for the public benefit, not their own.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 24, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

No mention of service in the military.

Maybe you should spend more time online getting the definition changed to suit your worldview?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 24, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
Combat vets excepted, OF COURSE!

I take exception to Zinke; wait, his position is higher in the gov't and BTW, did you know he was a SEAL?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 24, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
DMT performs this schtick every time patriots get mentioned.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
and of course John McCain's service is questionable because he was captured...

this from one who got four deferments because of a foot bone spur, but just loves America
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
Well he thinks he had a bone spur, he can't remember. Pardon me.

I believe it was four for school and one for the fake news leg ailment.


Mr. Trump’s public statements about his draft experience sometimes conflict with his Selective Service records, and he is often hazy in recalling details.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 24, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
I would consider Gabby Giffords a patriot.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 03:59pm PT

Wha about Mr. B?

By his hat you will know him.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/crimetv-pics/400.308c-1307033089.png/original.png



Buchinsky enlisted in the United States Army Air Forces in 1943, serving as an aircraft gunner in the 760th Flexible Gunnery Training Squadron. In 1945 he became a Superfortress crewman with the 39th Bombardment Group, based on Guam, and was assigned to a B-29 bomber, flying on 25 missions. Eventually he was awarded a Purple Heart for wounds received during his service and left the military in 1946.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 24, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
Neither is anyone else who hasn't served their nation in combat.

DMT

Dingus I do not agree with that assessment. I sent you an email.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 24, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
A job? The guy's like 20yrs older than you and retired, he probably worked longer than you've been alive.

Thanks for that. I am done with lyin' Ryan, spunk/pyro.
Not going to debate someone who shows their ignorance everytime they post.
For the record, I retired five years ago, started working when I was fifteen. Oh, Btw I was born here.
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
And you are sooo obsessed with Alex Jones and his bullsh!t .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 24, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
Well, he haaaaad it comin'

JOHN MCCAIN CANCER IS ‘GODLY JUSTICE’ FOR CHALLENGING TRUMP, ALT-RIGHT CLAIMS

Samples

“The last president for McCain will be Trump. There’s some godly justice right there,” wrote one user on the “Politically Incorrect” message board of social media network 4chan, a hothouse of right-wing memes.

“I’m pretty sure that God is punishing him,” wrote another 4chan user. “God made it pretty clear that he supports New Right now.”

"John McCain = a war mongering, never Trumper whom I dislike," wrote a user on Gab, another social media network popular with the alt-right.


Read it here if you're inclined

http://www.newsweek.com/mccain-cancer-trump-supporters-terrible-639834
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jul 24, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
show us yer tits donnie. period.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:29am PT
I'm all for the american agenda like say , affordable health care...Donny isn't...
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:46am PT
Sessions was the first US senator to endorse scoundrel Trump during the election. The great mindless loyalty or else purge at all costs marches forward...Sad.

...about as sad as lecturing Boy Scouts on being wealthy and 'hot', and how to act like total dicks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2017 - 08:15am PT
To those of you who hate Trump: What's wrong with an America-first agenda? Are you anti-American?

Well, first it's just a distraction meme for the victim-ridden and oppressed right who entirely fail to see who's f*#king them up the a*# 24x7.

Second, it's being pushed by a guy whose companies currently have just requested 64 foreign guest workers permits for Mar-a-Largo.

In other words, just like trump's [not] 'made in America' and 'make America great again', it's a complete sham aimed at gullible rubes.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 25, 2017 - 08:26am PT
To those of you who hate Trump: What's wrong with an America-first agenda? Are you anti-American

I see. So rejection of your dear leader = anti Americanism.

Sounds like fascism to me.
c wilmot

climber
Jul 25, 2017 - 08:28am PT
It's sad to see legal immigrants being denigrated by the left. They have never been a problem. I suppose when you brainwash your flock to think illegal and legal immigrants are the same this is the natural result.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 25, 2017 - 08:42am PT

To those of you who hate Trump: What's wrong with an America-first agenda? Are you anti-American?

I'm stunned by this blindness. Trump isn't a pro-American. Trump is a pro-Trumpian. Trump isn't about making America great. Trump is about making Trump (and family) richer. We see that at every turn.

And a side-effect is happy American bankers profiting from stupid short-sighted economic expectations. Bankers are having a good time after destroying the lives of many patriotic Americans who have lost house and money.

As another side effect 80% of Americans to a larger and larger extent will be slaves under manipulative corporations or their own misery, free to do whatever they can't do.

Is Spunk among the 20% who have the chance of profiting at the expense of the other 80%?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 25, 2017 - 09:07am PT
Spunk is more of the White Nationalist First type

Make America White again!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 25, 2017 - 09:09am PT
cwilmot, where was someone denigrating legal immigrants? I missed it.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2017 - 09:19am PT
In addition to Mao, scientists from Tulane include research assistant professor Jin Hu, assistant professor Jiang Wei, graduate students Jinyu Liu, Yanglin Zhu and visiting scholar Goufeng Cheng.

Wanna make America great again? Educate Americans - don't do everything in your power to keep them dumb.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2017 - 10:34am PT
*Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) was caught on a hot mic on Tuesday expressing concern over President Trump's mental health and questioning his understanding of the budget process.

n a conversation with Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.), the Maine Republican said of the president's budget proposal that “whenever there was a grant, they just X-ed it out, with no metric, no thinking about it, no nothing. I mean it’s just incredibly irresponsible.”

President Trump's budget proposal eliminated a slew of grants that provided welfare and social service support, such as the Community Development Block Grant.

**Reed responded to Collins by saying, of Trump: “He’s crazy.”
Collins can be heard quietly saying, “I'm worried.”**

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:05pm PT
McCain is a class act. Trump is a turd that needs to be flushed.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
"McCain is a class act. Trump is a turd that needs to be flushed."



Preached his little ass off and still voted for the bill..real class act.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
He did not vote for the bill. He voted to open debate. He said he would not support any of the current bills, and he made it clear he did not report to Cheeto Jesus.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
curious, anyone know how old Spunk is?

my guess 18-25?

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 25, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
I, too, am happy when I wake up and Trump is president. My nightmare is what happens after the GOP impeaches him and Pence takes over.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 25, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
"He did not vote for the bill. He voted to open debate"


Yes he did.


crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jul 25, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 25, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
Crankster....Where's the money laundering for Russian's badge...? And the spunk guzzling badge...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 25, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
Voting to open debate is spineless. Why are the Republicans so afraid to have committee hearings? They are scared sheetless that good ideas to improve ACA might be discussed.

Crankster, where is the Trophy Wife Hunting badge?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 25, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
Republicans and patriots should be outraged that tax dollars went towards John McCains cancer treatment...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Jul 26, 2017 - 04:28am PT
And the spunk guzzling badge...

RJonny broke into the archives and swallowed all of the remaining badges. Several scouts were desecrated along the way according to the NY Times.

RJonny remains committed to abusing scouts for the next 7.5 yrs of our Presidents term

RJonny is one of the legitimate Taco sociopaths.... aka Crankl00ns

Rotton Losers....Animals

MAGA
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 26, 2017 - 06:38am PT
drF.. More fake news from you.. Lay off your witch hunt and focus on the Missing Hillary badges..I saved the Stoopid American badge in case you felt left out...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 26, 2017 - 10:45am PT
http://ir.net/news/politics/126324/report-trump-regular-girlfriend-florida-melania-okd/
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 11:14am PT
keep posting ur transgender badge awards cuzz that's all u gonna get..


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 26, 2017 - 11:53am PT
I, too, am happy when I wake up and Trump is president. My nightmare is what happens after the GOP impeaches him and Pence takes over.

True... there's plenty of worse options for the puppet skin...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 26, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 26, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
Should the Defense Department pay for transgender surgeries?
Norton

Social climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
Should the Defense Department pay for transgender surgeries?

at present, the defense department pay more for its men to have erections (Viagra) than it is presently spending on its Transgender service people

should the defense department pay for erections? or should they be optional?

edit: somebody beat me too it!
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jul 26, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
I don't think the DoD should pay for either one.
jstan

climber
Jul 26, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
The transgender fight was undertaken now merely so it could produce a fog of confusion while Congress is in recess. Right now what has to happen is Congress has to decide it will reconvene the moment Trump fires Sessions.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 26, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
Should the Defense Department pay for transgender surgeries?

Why not? Cannon fodder is cannon fodder.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 27, 2017 - 05:38am PT
Actually Spunk, they are accepting themselves for what they are, it's you who can't accept them. Sad!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 27, 2017 - 06:22am PT
Spunk suffers from trannyphobia....
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jul 27, 2017 - 07:52am PT
Can't someone give trump a Bj in the Oval Office? Makes it easier to impeach him
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 07:56am PT
You people have devolved into the world of nothing but pure stooopid.

You have confirmed your consciousness of nothing but stoopid cesspool of loons .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:21am PT
Well I've heard of junkyard dogs, but cesspool loons? I had to Goggle it.

This is about as close as I could come. Courtesy of

Cesspool of Madness
Always there, always watching

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:57am PT
Can't someone give trump a Bj in the Oval Office? Makes it easier to impeach him

I'm pretty sure Scaramucci already has.

You just need to get Trump under oath for when he lies about it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
Putin decries 'anti-Russian hysteria' in US

"...the election of the US president, it is not our business, and it is not up to us to assess what he does in this very senior post, that's up to the US public," Putin said.

Somebody is doing something right, but keep a sharp eye on your water supply.

.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 27, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
The transgender fight was undertaken now merely so it could produce a fog of confusion while Congress is in recess. Right now what has to happen is Congress has to decide it will reconvene the moment Trump fires Sessions.

Too true John. But then distraction, deflection and fog are modus operandi of this administration.

And Sarah Huckabee Sanders (you know her, her daddy ran against Trump in the primaries) releasing a letter from an Trump admirer.

I cannot recall any president needing to publicize a letter from a supposed nine-year-old boy praising the POTUS.

Vainglorious comes to mind, but more so, egomaniac.

Also, don't you love it when he takes credit for companies saying they are setting up or increasing US operations, when a number of these plans were in the pipeline prior to the election. And credit for economic recovery. And inventing the internet (oops, that was Gore not Trump), and unemployment falling (again, probably because of policies put in place before Carrot Heads election).

And his boy Scout speech was revolting, disgusting, but what would one expect from Trump.

On Wednesday, BSA president Randall Stephenson, told AP News that the group had been concerned that Mr Trump may say something controversial during his speech.

But they felt obliged to issue an invitation to him, as they have done previously for every sitting US president, he said.

"If I suggested I was surprised by the president's comments, I would be disingenuous," said Mr Stephenson.

But Trump is funny. He makes the news interesting, even if it is Fake News.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 27, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
"I think President Trump and the Boy Scouts are perfect for each other.

DMT"


I agree homophobic, racist and sexist. Perfect match.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 27, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
So, the geniuses in the GOP want to pass a bill to repeal Obamacare, but only if it's guaranteed to never become law. WTF?

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-senate-healthcare-20170727-story.html
In a desperate bid to salvage their Obamacare overhaul, Senate Republicans were closing in on an unorthodox plan Thursday to vote on a dramatically slimmed-down repeal bill, but only if they received assurances that what they pass will never become law.

They want Senate GOP leaders’ so-called skinny bill — which Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) called a “fraud,” “disaster” and “the dumbest thing in history” — to be used only as a vehicle to develop more comprehensive legislation later in consultation with House Republicans.

The emerging plan would require 50 of the Senate’s 52 GOP lawmakers to vote for a bill that would leave much of the 2010 law in place and eliminate just a handful of its provisions, including its insurance mandates. The strategy arose in recent days as a last-ditch alternative after Senate Republicans were unable to agree on any other legislation to roll back the Affordable Care Act.

But GOP senators first wanted House Republican leaders to pledge not to vote on the Senate’s skinny plan, and to instead set up a conference committee in which House and Senate lawmakers can meld it with the more sweeping repeal legislation passed by the House in May.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
Boy Scouts will turn you into a bug.

“Oh, there is hope, an infinite amount of hope, just not for us.”


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
That's pure Stoopid in its' purest form...
john hansen

climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
Scouts

Reagan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sb6BFyYbV8

Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwoTegi72WI


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
Roasting a turkey could be considered a terrorist act...Brennan gets it...
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:43pm PT
Eat a bug
and
die
anarchist bitches!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 27, 2017 - 08:43pm PT
So the senate is about to pass a bill only upon a guarantee from the house that it won't become law???

What an incredible sh#t show. Banana republic.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:09pm PT
Failed...McCain voted no, I was wrong.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 27, 2017 - 11:21pm PT
They know the rural, red state voters will be disproportionately affected. They're f*#ked. Personally I'd be fine with them passing it so long as they do it now so that the effects are well understood by red state voters come 2018.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 28, 2017 - 05:01am PT
I like people who weren't captured.

Good thing the Dems took back 2 seats in the last election.

But, only 8 of 33 seats up for grabs in 2018 will be repubs.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 07:49am PT
They know the rural, red state voters will be disproportionately affected. They're f*#ked. Personally I'd be fine with them passing it so long as they do it now so that the effects are well understood by red state voters come 2018.

exactly my hope

only a Yuge wave of anger against the Repubs owning healthcare can propel the Dems back into majorities - I want them to pass their version and let the sh!t hit the fan
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jul 28, 2017 - 10:33am PT
DMT,

I don't want the R's to screw millions of Americans out of health care so that the 1% can get a Yuge tax cut.

But if they do, the R's owning health care will be a silver lining and I think they will suffer bigger election losses in the general if they do pass something than if they don't.

As it is, Obamacare wasn't on it's death bed like Fox news says, but it had some real problems that the Trump administration has made much worse. As has the uncertainty that the R's attempt to pass legislation has added.

It remains to be seen if swing voters will hold R's responsible for the additional damage to the system. Perhaps a few will, but I"m not too optimistic.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 28, 2017 - 10:50am PT
I'd rather get insurance company executives out of healthcare.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 28, 2017 - 11:04am PT
I'd rather get insurance company executives out of healthcare.
Me too.
I believe it is nearly that simple; however, health care being the cash cow that it is to insurers and the lobby..fat frikkin chance.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 11:14am PT
Let me get this straight, you want the republicans to gut healthcare because you think its the only way your team can get back into power?

DMT

Hi Dingus,

IF the Republicans can pass any of the three bills they have brought forward to be voted on
there will be a multi year delay in the implementation, cleverly so that the effects of taking 30 off their healthcare will not go into full effect until after the 2020 Presidential election.
Thus I am not concerned about the immediate effect.

But most importantly, the media 24/7 will be killing the Republicans with the details, educating the American public on how many are going to suffer and die because they now own healthcare in America. And that is the badly needed impetus for a wave of vote anger that can bring the Dems back into the majority, a damn good thing in my opinion.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 11:15am PT
I'd rather get insurance company executives out of healthcare.

then vote Democrat, think Medicaid, Medicare and single payer to eliminate them ^
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 28, 2017 - 11:19am PT
Let me get this straight, you want the republicans to gut healthcare because you think its the only way your team can get back into power?

Yes, it will take something drastic and close to home to snap trump supporters out of it. And also because the ACA actually is a complete disaster as will any plan be which includes the involvement of for-profit companies in the delivery of basic health care.
jstan

climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40754257

Skinny healthcare was voted down 10:30 PST. John McCain.

North Korea also launched another ICBM. We can only hope Trump is better at missiles than he is on healthcare.

On a less emotional response..........

Since retiring in 2003 I have kept spreadsheets on healthcare costs and how medicare has responded. During this period the costs have included treatments for cancer and triple bypass heart surgery. Below are tabulated summary figures for the......

Total costs 172883.86

Medicare approved charges 51521.30

Medicare paid 39168.76

Amount I might be billed 14690.84

Paid by gap policy 13492.95

Cost of gap policy(F) 28199.72

1. Under medicare, healthcare cost was reduced by 70%.

2. Medicare paid 76% of the approved charge

3. The gap policy paid 92% of what I might have been billed

4. I paid 0

5. The gap policy gained a net revenue flow of $14707. A gain roughly equal to the benefit I got from the policy.

I don't expect any funny business on the part of the gap insurer, in the near term.



Bottom line

We can't expect a 70% reduction in total national health costs by going to single payer.

My experience, however, suggests we need to use data and not what some talking head says as we go about resolving this problem.

Edit:
Before I forget. since 2008 the cost of my gap policy has risen 3% each year. Inflation rates have been somewhere between 1.5% and 1.8% per annum.

Both the cost of the policy and the rate of annual increase in that cost, when compared to my experience,

involve a wonderful factor of 2. Curious.
Norton

Social climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
So, how IS Obamacare, the ACA, doing anyway?

pretty damn good, let's take a look...

The ACA expanded Medicaid, NO monthly payment, giving health insurance to 11 million people

how is that a "disaster"?

another some 60 million Americans get their insurance from their employers, of which they pay only a fraction of the cost and the employer picking up the rest, how is this a disaster?
this is largely unchanged from before the ACA with the main difference that an employer with 50 or more employees must provide healthcare, before this there was no requirement

another some 10 million people get their insurance from the "exchanges" with those who make too much to qualify for Medicaid getting a subsidy from the government to help make their payments, this has allowed millions and millions to get insurance who could not otherwise afford it

another group of people make enough money to buy their own insurance with no help from the government, just as then did before the ACA, and just as monthly payments were going up every year after year before the ACA those payments are continuing to go up, largely because healthcare costs in general, hospitals, doctors, etc, costs have gone up

can the ACA be improved even more? yes, but is requires the Republicans to join with the Democrats, which they absolutely have refused to do for 8 years, to fix some things

or perhaps you prefer the state of healthcare in America prior to the ACA?
when childhood chicken pox was a pre existing condition in adulthood and so insurance companies can and did flat out deny you insurance and if they did offer you a policy it was much higher monthly payments because you were likely to cost them more money

Watching cable news or reading online news I constantly see Republicans screaming that the ACA is a "disaster", that it is "failing" - They are lying, out of personal ignorance and because they simply can't stand the idea that it was the Dems and not they that finally did something about healthcare, something very positive, and so their ability to reason is blinded by bias and partisan loyalty
ec

climber
ca
Jul 28, 2017 - 01:41pm PT

Now, as in old-school Japan, all politicians that supported the failed BS Healthcare Repeal/Replace should line up in rows on their knees and disembowel themselves publicly: harakiri


 ec
Norton

Social climber
Jul 28, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
spunk, your post made no sense at all

try again
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 28, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
I am quite honestly tired of winning, can we maybe try the losing thing for a while.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jul 29, 2017 - 07:42am PT
The Past 5 GOP Presidents Have Used Fraud and Treason to Steer Themselves to Electoral Victory

The deception started long before Donald Trump.

By Thom Hartmann / AlterNet

http://www.alternet.org/right-wing/gop-fraud-and-treason


Their base doesn't care, it's all about winning then denying there was any treason.

but when a Democrat wins, it's about taking them down for any stupid indiscretion
They don't care about Governing, they just want to win and take power,
and once in power they give away the country to any one that sucks up to them
proof that the right wing is morally bankrupt.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 29, 2017 - 09:35am PT
The total incompetence of the Trump regime is on full display.

And they can't even blame it on Obama or Hillary...Sad!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 29, 2017 - 11:07am PT
King Donald of Mar Largo wields a sharp guillotine..
Norton

Social climber
Jul 29, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
um, Trump DID fire the entire cabinet

and replaced them all with his own picks

you know, like Ben Carson to be the head of HUD

because Ben spent a couple short years as a child in a housing project

oh, and he did not say anything negative about Trump during the primary, and he is black
proving Trump who was sued twice by the government for refusing to rent to blacks, is not racist

therefore he was entirely qualified to run one of the biggest government agencies

and you voted for him, didn't you, Honey Boo Boo

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 29, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
Did Spunk just use "Lincoln" and "Trump" in the same sentence? Guess who's rolling in his grave?
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jul 30, 2017 - 11:18am PT



http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
Here's your brave, new world. Yeah! Let's emulate the UK and give the government ABSOLUTE control over every detail of our persons, which is exactly what happens when we go down the road the left proposes.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/health/charlie-gard-death/index.html

The most revealing paragraph is this:

At the end of January, Charlie's parents launched a GoFundMe page to raise money to bring Charlie to the United States for that treatment. In three months, they exceeded their £1.3 million ($1.65 million) goal to cover the costs, but the hospital stepped in and opposed this effort, stating that it was not in the best interest of their patient.

Notice! but the hospital stepped in and opposed this effort

Why??? Well, let's see the proposed justification....

In April, the UK High Court ruled that it was in the infant's best interest for his treating clinicians to remove the ventilator keeping him alive. That decision was then backed by the European Court of Human Rights in June, which ruled not to intervene in the case. This was upheld by a British Supreme Court decision that the hospital could discontinue life support to Charlie and he could not be transferred to the US or elsewhere.

And that should be accurately recast as what it is really saying:

"In April, the UK High Court ruled that it was in the taxpayer's best interest...."

These utter pieces of snake-excrement decided that the parents had NO rights to seek help for their child, even if they were paying for it themselves (AFTER having been raped on taxes their whole lives). Yeah, here is "humane," "liberal" society showing its TRUE colors: taking care of itself, the COLLECTIVE, over even the most BASIC rights of self-determination of individuals!

The federal government already has FAR too much power over the details of our personal lives, and socialized health care is just the next step toward full, totalitarian control, which was just on full display in the UK.

You guys seem to think that totalitarianism is okay if it is "more or less benevolent." I do not. We're already too far down this road, and the next step is a doozy!
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 30, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
And that should be accurately recast as what it is really saying:

"In April, the UK High Court ruled that it was in the taxpayer's best interest...."

Complete BS. The courts determined that these parents did not have the right to pointlessly prolong the pain and suffering of their terminally ill child.
The US doctor offering the experimental treatment acknowledged that his treatment was not going to help this child. A tragedy for all involved, but no different to many similar US court rulings.

Even if was as you say, this child would likely have been long dead under pre-Obamacare insurance rules, and possibly current US law too. Lifetime cap exceeded, tough sh#t. Pre-existing condition, tough sh#t. A Go fund me for 1.5million would pay for less than two months of ICU.

TE
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
Complete BS. The courts determined that these parents did not have the right to pointlessly prolong the pain and suffering of their terminally ill child.

Complete BS. The child was not in "pain and suffering," and it IS entirely up to the parents to decide on taking a shot at extending the life of their child.

The fact that people like you have so drunk the Kool-Aid that you honestly and sincerely believe that the GOVERNMENT should have ANY right in such decisions literally outrages me. I do NOT want the government in every detail of my life. You guys have entirely accepted "benevolent tyranny," and you should seriously be ashamed of yourselves.

The US doctor offering the experimental treatment acknowledged that his treatment was not going to help this child. A tragedy for all involved, but no different to many similar US court rulings.

Complete BS. That acknowledgement came AFTER the frigging COURTS got involved and drug the mess out for week after week after week, until, yes, the situation was finally beyond all hope. The HOSPITAL and the COURTS sentenced that kid to a hopeless death.

Sure, the odds were very low. But the HOSPITAL and COURTS said, "We will take a tiny chance and determine for you that you don't get even that!"

But while hope remained, it's an OUTRAGE that you literally think it's cool to tell parents, "Fvck you! Fvck your hope, because it's a small enough percentage chance that we are not going to ALLOW you to cling to THAT sort of hope, despite the good will of many thousands who jumped in to pay for it."

This situation is indefensible. And the typical lib argument, "Well, we've gone this far down the road, so the next step is nothing 'much,'" is itself outrageous. If you can't see that we have gone too far, that the UK has gone too far, then I can virtually guarantee you another civil war before too long. The divide between the left wing and reality is getting too vast to bridge.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 31, 2017 - 07:06am PT
That would never happen under private insurance, would it?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4111934&page=1

http://www.westword.com/news/health-care-hell-the-insurance-company-didnt-give-a-damn-the-jury-decided-it-ought-to-give-37-million-5107098

https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 31, 2017 - 07:31am PT
DRAIN THE SWAMP....

He has stocked the swamp with all the biggest alligators he could possibly find. Every cabinet post is now manned by an alligator. Banks, corporations and Wall Street have never had it so good. If you think he has done any swamp draining you're a simpleton - he's done just the opposite.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 31, 2017 - 08:38am PT
That of course is because they are too chickensh!t to admit they've been wrong from square one...

Good morning LOCKER.... I hope your having a fine day...To CHICKEN SH#T?????????? !!!

I don't think so... its just that it such a worthless cause, all of you libs just want to bend over and take it-- and you all enjoy and wish for the Government to just add a little reach around for you.

EDIT: I have good fun informative exchanges with most of my more Liberal friends about all of this stuff....I hope I have been able to change the minds of some of them-- and they all add somethings to my beliefs and get me to think. But ZERO call me chickensh#t.... LOCKER I don't think you would call me that to my face now would you?

And I stick by my vote 100% ... in fact its all working out better than I could have expected....



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 31, 2017 - 09:59am PT
in fact its all working out better than I could have expected....

I agree. Trump's colossal incompetence has completely derailed the Republican agenda.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 31, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Fuk yeah I would...

Why would you think otherwise???...

Because in real life your a mild mannered retired re-soler....who loves to partay, but now you must be in your SUPERTOPO internet bully costume????

LOL... how is retired life? Im envious.



Norton

Social climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 10:55am PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 11:03am PT
MB1 . The Longmont lady that sued Time insurance for breach of contract and won 37 million is proof that ' for profit health insurance" is a scam and further proof that private health insurance companies can't be trusted when it comes to dealing with the American consumer...Luckily for the Latham lady " the government " stepped in and righted this horrible situation...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 11:10am PT
Locker...LMAO... I'll bring you dream.... !!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 11:16am PT
Mild mannered Locker.. Maybe you and Stupid f*#k , chicken sh#t Guy could get together over a can of glue and settle your differences..?
monolith

climber
state of being
Jul 31, 2017 - 11:44am PT
Mooch is out. Trump's draining the swamp again.

Seems the new chief of staff, that replaced the old chief of staff mooch dumped on, didn't like his vulgarity. What goes around....
Norton

Social climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 11:49am PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Did Scarymoochy even have time to move into an office...? Can Trumps presidency be any more hysterical...? Can't wait for Trump to start punishing Susan Collins , McCain , and Murkowski for voting no...Go get em Donald...
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
derailed the Republican agenda.

..or maybe taken the focus off of it? What is going on behind closed (bathroom stall) doors?

Norton

Social climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
Damn Mooch, we hardly knew you, snuffed out like a candle in the wind, okay, more of a blow torch.

Trump sure is cramming a lot of action into the first season of his show.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
Poor SNL writers. I was really looking forward to the circus.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 31, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
Complete BS. The child was not in "pain and suffering," and it IS entirely up to the parents to decide on taking a shot at extending the life of their child.

The fact that people like you have so drunk the Kool-Aid that you honestly and sincerely believe that the GOVERNMENT should have ANY right in such decisions literally outrages me. I do NOT want the government in every detail of my life. You guys have entirely accepted "benevolent tyranny," and you should seriously be ashamed of yourselves.
You present your own personal belief as "facts" and your own sense of butt hurt as an objective basis of what should be a collective outrage.

You know this terminally ill child "was not in 'pain and suffering'" because...? I'm not sure if you're a parent, but as one, while I can't say I would agree with everything a physician would tell me, since he or she has been to medical school, etc., they will likely have a much more credible basis for his or her opinion than I would.

You also contend that the British government denied coverage because of money (which you have no proof of) while, at the same time, contending that they had raised more than enough private money for treatment. So where do you obtain this pipeline of absolute knowledge that the rest of us are missing? Finally, you find it so oppressive that the "GOVERNMENT" is supposedly dictating health care choices (even though you probably believe that the government's currently spends too much on Medicaid) but you do not find it oppressive that people pay a lot of money for private health insurance and are routinely denied coverage by the private, for-profit insurer.

Not ashamed of myself, but I would be if I spouted the blather that you do.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 31, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
Scaramucci sacked.

Is it a case of the rats deserting a sinking ship or a rat deserting his followers?

This is entertainment at its lowest level, Reality TV courtesy of Donald Trump

If it was not so sad for its implications on American society, and indeed the world, it would be funny. But it is not.

Good riddance Scarramuci. You are the lucky one, there rest of America is still stuck with Trump.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 31, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
You know, I just thought (only for the first time I have ever thought intelligently) there is a plan here. Donald hires somebody, fires them, they go on the speaking circuit, earns loads of money, pay a percentage to Donald.

Gosh, how brilliant. Where do I sign up?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Jul 31, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
DysfunctionalbleTrump.

I cannot figure out how may syllables are in that. It does not make sense.

Maybe it is iambic poetry, or poetry in motion (like a bowel movement).
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 31, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
Will we ever get to know if Scaramucchi does the fandango?

I can't possibly be the only person with Bohemian Rhapsody rattling around in my head since that guy came on the scene.

#NoChaos

TE
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 31, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
Eddie:

https://mobile.twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/892109815350210560?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigsoccer.com%2Fthreads%2F606-cant-keep-us-locked-down.1995148%2Fpage-5223aw
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
Trad eddie... Thunderbolt ( Donald ) and lightning ( Scarmooch ) very very frightening...Oh mamma mia , mamma mia...
WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
More frightening is you, idiots, blathering all day about this stoopid Trump sh!t ......
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 31, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
"More frightening is you, idiots, blathering all day about this stoopid Trump sh!t ......"


Coming from the dickhead who has "27,305 forum posts."


You really are a self righteous as#@&%e.
WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
Hahaha threw the little boob a bone and the fool comes running like the stoopid dog he always is ....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 31, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
"Hahaha threw the little boob a bone and the fool comes running like the stoopid dog he always is ....
"


Nice try dickhead, over 27,000 posts on a climbing site, mostly political...what a loser.


""More frightening is you, idiots, blathering all day about this stoopid Trump sh!t ......"



27,000 posts


Your are Pavlov's dog, not me.
WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
Poor liitle boob all jealous he doesn't have as many posts .... LOL
Norton

Social climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
Terry, go ahead and do it, you don't need to wait any longer nor need any more data.

PM me
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 31, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
"Poor liitle boob all jealous he doesn't have as many posts .... LOL"


27,000 posts on a climbing site, mostly political telling other they are stoopid, doesn't get funnier.


Like a dog foaming at the mouth for more attention. Werner, get a life.


Poor little Werner, no life, no kids just ST/27,000 posts and some little imaginary friend/mind/soul floating around in the sky.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 31, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
"More frightening is you, idiots, blathering all day about this stoopid Trump sh!t ......"


Classic delusional little Wernerito ...biggest political poster on ST telling other they are stoooopid for posting to political threads.


Come on Werner...grow a set, let's take the glove off.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 31, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
WAPO has breaking news that Don Jr.'s adoption discussion with the Russians was written by the Orange ShitGibbon himself.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jul 31, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
Werner use to be smart and then he started drinking the kool aid...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 31, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
"Werner use to be smart and then he started drinking the kool aid..."


If that is what you call smart...LOL


He is a little bully, nothing more. All hot air and no substance.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jul 31, 2017 - 08:10pm PT
Are we talkin' Herr Braun heir?
Heart of gold.
Sure, he repeats himself at times.

It's a hard job, but somebody's gotta do it, eh? Eh? EH?


Equal time.


Double equal time




Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 31, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
Looks like they're tired of winning.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-senior-gop-senators-serve-notice-no-1501541809-htmlstory.html

Trump administration officials continue to push the Senate to take another run at healthcare legislation, but on Monday senior Republican senators pushed back, making clear that they're done with the topic for now.

"There's just too much animosity and we're too divided on healthcare," Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), the head of the Senate Finance Committee, said in an interview with Reuters.

"I think we ought to acknowledge that we can come back to healthcare afterward, but we need to move ahead on tax reform," Hatch said.

His remarks were quickly followed by others in GOP leadership positions.

"I think it's time to move on to something else," Sen. Roy Blunt of Missouri told CNN. "If the question is do I think we should stay on healthcare until we get it done, I think it's time to move on to something else."

Sen. John Thune of South Dakota also chimed in. "Until someone shows us how to get that elusive 50th vote, I think it's over," he told reporters.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 31, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
Here's a link to an interesting Bloomberg article that shows Obamacare is NOT failing, despite lies to the contrary.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/health-insurance-marketplaces-for-2018/


Most marketplace enrollees had multiple insurance companies to choose among this year, and most will again in 2018. In 2017, 83 percent of enrollees received help paying their premiums.

In four Indiana counties, parts of Ohio and rural Nevada, no insurer has yet filed or publicly announced plans to sell marketplace plans. About 12,000 people enrolled in marketplace plans in these so-called “bare” counties in 2017. Insurance departments in each state are working to convince companies to re-enter those areas.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jul 31, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
You mean you can't get insurance in Nevada's nuclear test sites or Area 51?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 1, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
The "implosion of Obamacare" is another total lie.

Just like this whopper from the worthless POS in Chief.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/boy-scouts-unaware-of-call-trump-said-he-received-from-organization-praising-jamboree-speech/ar-AApgRtd
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
C'mon now Lorenzo, there is civilization out there in northeast Nevada. Take a look around Osceola for example. Thomas lives there!

And don't forget about Montello, NV:
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Oh yes! Montello is the gateway to Copper Mountain, with a memorable view of sunrise on the Bonneville Salt Flats.


The sunsets aren't bad either.


It is absolutely a failure of Obamacare (and the Nevada legislature) that the 500 or so folks in the Montello area are not covered, but the folks just a few miles east & north in Utah & Idaho are covered;)
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 07:52am PT
Uh, 2012

http://library.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/default/files/chart-graph/120220nuclear440[1].jpg

Who is Jeff, you may ask? Do the math.


Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:22am PT
Trump is clearly insane. Loony tunes.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:44am PT
^Agreed, but for the immediate future he is still the president. Think about it.

Truman was not considered insane and take a look at what he did.

Years later, he said he did not lose a wink of sleep over the decision [to drop atomic bombs on innocent civilians].

Trum[an], Trum[p]

Trump signs what he calls ‘seriously flawed’ bill imposing new sanctions on Russia

Had no choice. All that's required is standing up to the chump.

Norton

Social climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:44am PT
The President of the United States reportedly called the White House a "dump"

maybe there is a family in West Virginia that would like to move in there
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:58am PT

"The fact that murderers, brigands, gangsters, thieves, forgers, tyrants, and swindlers, like the current President, in guise that deceives nobody, have seized control of collective life is characteristic of our time. Their unscrupulousness and double-dealing are recognized – and admired. Their ruthless energy they obtain at best from some stray archetypal content that has got them in its power. The dynamism of a possessed personality is accordingly very great, because, in its one-track primitivity, it suffers from none of the differentiations that make men human."
Norton

Social climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:12am PT
Trump's approval rating falls to a new record low - 33%

27% hope to graduate high school this coming year

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:27am PT
Serious thread drift but
Years later, he said he did not lose a wink of sleep over the decision [to drop atomic bombs on innocent civilians].
If you are familiar with the level of casualties suffered by civilians as the U.S. approach the Japanese mainland, not to mention the casualties to U.S. and Japanese military personnel, the number of civil casualties would have been staggering had Japan not surrendered. It is also important to remember that the Japanese were provided with a demonstration of the bomb before the U.S. actually used it, and the Japanese demurred. As truly horrible as the bomb was, I don't believe the U.S. had any other choice.

Interestingly, people seem to forget the Allied bombing of Germany late in the European war. They believe the c. 500,000 civilians, mostly women and children, were killed in that campaign. War is hell, which is why people shouldn't start them.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:28am PT

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
Norton

Social climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:38am PT
but, what if the US had not dropped the atomic bombs?

and simply, patiently waited for hostilities to eventually cease

by the time of the bombing the US Navy and Marines had largely destroyed the Japanese fleet and had air superiority throughout the Pacific, even obviously over Japan

clearly we had Japan where we wanted them by then, no further real threat to the US

official forced surrender - was it necessary at such civilian destruction?

IDK, can see it both ways but I would like to read a compelling justification for the bombing
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:43am PT
You mean just wait for the Japanese to give up? Really? Just like the Nazis should have after a successful Allied Invasion?

From Historynet: "The battle (of Okinawa)had been among the most brutal of the Pacific War. The Navy suffered its greatest casualties for a single engagement. More than 12,000 Americans were killed and a further 50,000 were wounded. More than 150,000 Japanese — many of them civilians — were killed during the battle."

Given the stats, one can only imagine how many would have died in light of the Emperor's recalcitrance. Edit: I'm not saying the bomb was a good thing; I'm just saying I can see the argument why it was necessary.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:48am PT

To gain popularity the current American president needs a BIG war. Where will America find it Necessary?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:53am PT
My father was always of the mind we could have just as easily dropped the bomb in the middle of Tokyo harbor and then told them the next one would be on Toyko. He said he and others felt that would have worked, but that the military wanted to see what the result of dropping them would be on the ground.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:54am PT
but, what if the US had not dropped the atomic bombs?

Great question. The MIC spent billions building their new toy and were going to use it on women and children in a civilian population center to study the slaughter.

Japan was a defeated ISLAND with no real means of defense. All of the nonsense of a "million" dead if we didn't nuke them is patently absurd.

One must remember Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, a legitimate military target. They did not go on to level surrounding civilian population centers or major cities, and they could have at that time.

john hansen

climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
My father joined the navy Dec 18 1941 at age 17. He was on minelayers in the slot during Guadacanal, went through the typhoon at Ulithe atoll, watched other ships hit by kamikazes at Iwo Jima and spent over three of the four years he was in the navy in combat zones.

He came back to the states after Iwo but was scheduled to go back for the invasion of Japan.

He told me he always thought he would make it through the war until they headed back the last time. Figured he had used up all his luck.. They heard about the bomb and the wars end while in route to Japan.

Good chance I would not exist if we had to invade the Islands.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Japan was a defeated ISLAND with no real means of defense. All of the nonsense of a "million" dead if we didn't nuke them is patently absurd.
One could say this of most of the islands that the Japanese defended in WWII: Iwo Jima, Pelelieu, Okinawa, etc., all of which created terrific casualties. That didn't stop the Japanese from fighting to the last man.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
Truman did exactly the right thing.... thank god.

The Japs were not going to surrender ever... and all of our Allies (brits, french, Australians) were not going to help us at all. Only the Ruskies were more than willing to step in... and they did at the end.

vaporizing a couple of hundred thousand japs was well worth it if only to end the war asap to keep the ruskies out and maintain a Japan free of them. This way WE the USA was able to maintain a way of life and maintain freedom for the Japanese people.

And to Marlow... the US government lied to its own solders and all of us about radiation in till well into the early fifties.


Wow most of you guys have no idea about history... so you are condemned to repeat it.

DMT gets it.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
and all of our Allies (brits, french, Australians) were not going to help us at all

what an astoundingly naive and uninformed supposition, every wonder why they were our "allies"?

go tell that to the British and French who for your information were bombed and invaded by Germany and fought like hell against it, side by side with us, including the Australians who joined us in the Pacific against Japan albeit with their limited resources

wow, gonna finally graduate high school this year?

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 2, 2017 - 01:09pm PT
...vaporizing a couple of hundred thousand japs was well worth it if only to end the war asap....

Real nice.... hope you with reflect upon that sentiment when such a device is set off in/over one of our major civilian cities.

Targeted murder of civilians is never 'ok' in my book.


zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
This record has played before and most all the stuff they told you in elementary school turns out not to be true [ie re: Truman-Japan].

They believe the c. 500,000 civilians, mostly women and children, were killed in that campaign. War is hell, which is why people shouldn't start them.

These were not civilians deliberately targeted.

additionally the Japanese military had a decades long track history of perpetrating horrors on civilian ...

The Japs did it, so we are going to also.
-H. True Man

zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
It remains a complicated argument to this day.

Quick and dirty info here (but still not a bomb).

Supporters of the bombings generally assert that they caused the Japanese surrender, preventing massive casualties on both sides in the planned invasion of Japan: Kyūshū was to be invaded in October 1945 and Honshū five months later. It was thought Japan would not surrender unless there was an overwhelming demonstration of destructive capability.

Those who oppose the bombings argue it was militarily unnecessary,[4] inherently immoral, a war crime, or a form of state terrorism.[5] Critics believe a naval blockade and conventional bombings would have forced Japan to surrender unconditionally.[6]
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 2, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
Norton.... The British had nothing left after the defeat of the Germans.... they tossed out Winston and were demobilizing troops... not getting more new troops to go beat japan.
Sometimes you make the most ignorant statements...

and to Locker... the people we fought were japs period. ( I can give you some real life descriptions of just what they did to captured people... some of the most horrible stuff you can imagine) after the surrender they became Japanese... you know real people who were not killing people.

seriously... some of you guys get all indignant at the use of words. And I do pick my words... I have a 48 star American Flag at home that was earned by GreatUncle Robert who went down with his ship on Dec 7th...

My Father in law spent 4 years in New Guinea... training native people how kill jap troops and paying the reward for the dried up yellow ears... he could never talk about the sh#t he went through.

on and on...

The nuke was used as it should have been... not as some great big fireworks display over Tokyo harbor, but to KILL as many as possible in the shortest amount of time... glad we had a second one and used it. Because the only thing murdering f*#ks like the japs know is brute force.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
That's some savagely ignorant sh#t right there.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
These were not civilians deliberately targeted.
If you are dropping bombs on cities that have no military significance and you also know that the Germans had already dipped into conscripting teenagers and old men, who do you believe is left in the cites you are fire bombing? As a related note, read Slaughter House Five by Kurt Vonnegut. He rightfully questions the fire bombing of Dresden, which he later witnessed as a GI, given the complete absence of any military benefit other than crushing the German people. Again, I'm not condoning the bombing of Japan or Germany, but the death visited upon the Japanese by virtue of the atomic bomb is just a variation on a theme of the horrors that happen daily in war.
WBraun

climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
Americans are constantly preaching nonviolence all while simultaneously killing everything in sight all over the planet ......
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
These were not civilians deliberately targeted.

Yes they were. It was called area bombing.
The Area Bombing Directive was a directive from the wartime British Government's Air Ministry to the Royal Air Force which ordered RAF bombers to attack the German industrial workforce and the morale of the German populace through bombing German cities and their civilian inhabitants.

According to Antony Beevor Stalin was prepared to invade western Europe until the Bomb was dropped.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
guy man

your old relatives are irrelevant to this

you are not them, seriously read some history
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
The conduct of Germany and its allies, and then Japan, towards civilians was barbaric from the time each went to war. Including deliberate, widespread bombing of civilians and enormous general violence towards civilians by both countries, although Germany did more area/civilian bombing. More resources - Japan could never have been a lasting threat.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and waging war on civilians is always wrong. But in a modern industrial war there aren't many innocents. The Allied area bombing in Europe and then Japan was ugly, but necessary.

The Japanese were generally but vaguely warned about the atomic bomb after the first test, but had no specific knowledge of what was going to happen.

Substantial Allied forces were involved in the Pacific war from the start, particularly Chinese, Dutch, British, Australian, Indian, Burmese, and New Zealand. (Of the western allies, New Zealand suffered the highest proportion of military casualties during the war.) Substantial British and Canadian forces were being transferred to the far east in 1945, in preparation for the invasion of Japan.

(Alternative history: Marian ('John') Wayne won the war single-handedly, serving under the bombastic incompetent MacArthur.)

Even the Japanese knew by 1944 that they were going to lose. Their ferocious defence of strategically valueless islands simply convinced Allied leaders as to what would happen in an invasion of the home islands. Given that the Russians were on the verge of invading Manchuria (re Khalkin Gol), and that the US and Britain didn't want the Soviets to have any more influence in the far east than could be avoided, they were going to invade - starving the Japanese out might have taken years.

My uncle was a flying officer on a Lancaster which crashed during training, in April 1945. They probably would have been transferred to the far east, although by summer 1945 there wasn't a lot left to bomb in Japan. Likewise my father had finished his basic training in the army, and was posted on Vancouver Island in summer 1945, and would likely have been in any invasion.

As has been known for millennia, war is hell.

Edit: Of the innumerable counter-factual arguments about the war, one that is not heard is what if the US had finished the atomic bomb by say March 1945? Would they have used it on Berlin, and what would have been the results?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 2, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
Norton... again you are wrong.

I read a lot of history... and now that almost 80 years have past the books are getting better more detailed....because all of the classified records are being shown the light of day.

In the Book "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully.... there is a footnote: it is the report, given by the captain of one of the Japanese Cruisers who picked up the crew of one of our shot down dive bombers.... what they did to these men is unspeakable.

And to Mighty Hiker... what you wrote is true, I agree.

The truth I have learned from all my reading is that brutality leads to more brutality and that leads to more... its a cycle that is only broken when people wake up and see all the bloodshed and waste and horror and wish to have the nightmare end.

Just look at what the Iraq army did when they got those ISIS (ISIL) or what ever the F they are called surrendered. They tied the hands together... tossed them off of 3 story buildings.... the lucky ones died from the fall... the unlucky ones... well they got the sh#t kicked out of them for a day or so then a bullet in the stomach....

I can't blame the Iraqui troops.... if you had seen with your eyes what ISIS did to your fellow solders when they surrendered and just what was done to the Women and Children you too would be in a murderous rage.

That Gentlemen is what WAR is... and thats why I go crazy when two bit politicians and civilians want us to go kick some butt someplace... it is not a game, rather a deep dark part of human behavior. One that must be kept in check if we are going to call ourselves civilized.

Good Day.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
by summer 1945 there wasn't a lot left to bomb in Japan.

I would aver that Gen Lemay was just getting warmed up. Remember, the incendiary raids overall made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like tactical bombing.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
The Area Bombing Directive was a directive from the wartime British Government's Air Ministry to the Royal Air Force

The discussion was about the U.S.

But fair enough, British and Americans fire-bombed Dresden with a resulting 25,000 civilian (disputed) casualties.

A 1953 United States Air Force report defended the operation as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they noted was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.[7] Several researchers have asserted that not all of the communications infrastructure, such as the bridges, was targeted, nor were the extensive industrial areas outside the city centre

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 2, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
...and thats why I go crazy when two bit politicians and civilians want us to go kick some butt someplace... it is not a game,

Amen.

"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."
    William Tecumseh Sherman
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 2, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
Gary +1 +1 +1

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 2, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
Interesting, about the bomb. Right or wrong. Or somewhere in between.

But we are not pondering that.

We have a man in the White House who knows very little. He sustains himself with false beliefs (some of whom live on this forum).

Trump is not a madman, but he is close to it.

The fact that America has gotten to this point, is very sad and worrying.

The Trump supporters on this forum can cry snowflake, but even by now they must realize, Trump is not sane. By any definition.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 2, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
The sad thing is, those voters searching, wishing, for a way out of the morass of American society, they tied their hopes to Donald Trump.

Many still believe in him. After all of this, they still believe. I can only shed a tear.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 2, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
That Gentlemen is what WAR is... and thats why I go crazy when two bit politicians and civilians want us to go kick some butt someplace... it is not a game, rather a deep dark part of human behavior. One that must be kept in check if we are going to call ourselves civilized.

+1

And they say that Sec. of Defense, Maddis, is more inclined to talk than fight.
WBraun

climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
The Trump supporters on this forum can cry snowflake, but even by now they must realize, Trump is not sane. By any definition.

Yes, Trump IS insane.

And so are YOU ......
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 07:33pm PT


The best the ST forum has to offer. You'll recognize the parents of some the most prolific ST posters or the posters themselves.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Long version?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

nah000

climber
now/here
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
Mighty Hiker wrote: The Allied area bombing in Europe and then Japan was ugly, but necessary.

possibly? keep in mind that the "_ _ _ _ _ _ was ugly, but necessary" line is precisely the same line that every single victor says of their atrocities, no matter how "morally" or "immorally" they generally acted.

and given the fog of mis/information that inevitably exists in war, when someone says something atrocious is "necessary", i tend to think that the lady doth protest too much.

it makes claims to a knowledge, that mere humans rarely have: the knowledge of what might have happened if they didn't do something...



and so regardless of whether it was "necessary", what i do know is that if the word "terrorism" is to have any meaning in modern industrialized societies then there can be no argument that the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki were the definition of that word.

only argument i can see otherwise is that in industrialized nations there are, due to the modes of production, no non-combatants and as such, no civilians per se... and therefore no terrorism.

i don't agree with this argument and so i believe that if we are to more deeply understand the society we have all become the heirs to [and the world we now live in], we must face the fact that when push came to shove our leadership, a short 70ish years ago, chose terrorism as their m.o.

and collectively our foreparents didn't say boo.



mostly they/we said/say: "it was necessary".
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
After all of the carnage of the war, and the decades of atrocities committed by the Japanese, I can't imagine that using the bomb was a tough call. I also think it would have been wrong to make U.S. soldiers keep fighting and dying while there was a war ending weapon ready to drop. If it were me or my son I doubt I would have advocated storming beaches and fighting through the jungle with the hope that fewer innocent Japanese would be killed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
I think a good case could be made that the second bomb was unnecessary.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
Nothing ain't worth noting, but it is free.
-free,white &>21
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 2, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
The second bomb was " over-kill " so to speak...
TLP

climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:51pm PT
I think a good case could be made that the second bomb was unnecessary.

Actually not. Surrender demands were reiterated, and refusals reiterated, during the days between Aug. 6 and Aug. 9, 1945. And apparently (a new bit of historical info I found by reading the whole of the Wikipedia piece on the bombings - recommended) the Japanese government had their guys make an assessment of how many of these things they could expect to be hit by, which conclusion was, only a few more at most, there will be some destruction but the war will go on...

There's a lot of historical information cited in the Wiki bit, no doubt shelves full of well researched books. It is well to bear in mind that none of us posting here have the slightest clue about the context of 7 years of unimaginable global carnage, 4 of them involving the U.S. Even just talking to parents or grandparents who lived through does not come close to fully understanding it. I'm content not to pass judgment on whether the decisions that were made were right or wrong but do incline to trust that the people who made them did the best they could to deal with the situation they were in.

It's not encouraging that a thread titled "US national policy issues looming" has now drifted to nuclear war. Or any war. On the other hand it is encouraging that there seems to be some degree of consensus among posters of disparate political persuasions that war is a very bad thing, and we (all countries) shouldn't go around starting them.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
nah000. ... interesting, but would you have had us do???
I think onthedge has made a very concise post, one I agree with.

I have no answers really, I know I am one of the luckiest people alive. I won the lottery in the Vietnam War and was not drafted. I do count everyday as gravy because I am alive and some friends I know who went never returned.

To sum it all up... War is Hell. Talking your way out of one is the best possible outcome. To successfully do that, you had better be prepared to fight.

But to get back on topic... Health care... Our Government provides many guarantees, FDIC for checking /savings accounts... $$$$ to General Motors and Wall Street speculators, to Tessla, to Defence contractors.... the list is a long one. So why can't we have a free market based health care insurance system with a guarantee of coverage for those who might get screwed if an unscrupulous insurance company can not provide service? And for the cost of a B2 or a F22 or two take care of the truly "poor" in that same system?

I think we could if Washington Politicians could stop serving the interests of the lobbyists who paid for their election campaign and start serving the people who voted for them.

I support President Trump, because I think he sees this reality and I don't think he will fold under some political pressure to keep this game going. I could be wrong.. I have been in the past.

It is now up to Democrats to lay cards on the table... if single payer is what you want... say so in no uncertain terms, so the country can vote on it. Up or Down...make it clear.

The Republicans offer nothing. As was just demonstrated.

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 3, 2017 - 04:15am PT
Fat Trad

The firebombing of Dresden was horrible. A war crime?

Dropping nukes on Japan? In hindsight, isn't everything so clear.

We must remember, the world (for its most part) was at war.

As another poster put it, this is why us humans want to avoid war. There is better use for our resources, human and other wise.

But to tie this in to this thread, Donald Trump does not appear to understand these things. So healthcare is apparently off the agenda for now, let us move on to tax reform.

And who do you think will have their taxes reformed for their benefit?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 3, 2017 - 04:27am PT
Wow most of you guys have no idea about history... so you are condemned to repeat it.

I call BS on that Guyman, you have no idea what I know.

EDIT

Go on and support your Trump, it just shows what you know. You come across as well informed, yet you seem to wear the pink glasses and drink the kool aid.

Guyman, your distaste for the status quo is well known by now, and I would think many of us agree, to an extent. But what are your alternatives, solutions?

Did we cross swords in Camp 4? Nope, the only swords I crossed in C4 are no longer with us, sadly.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 3, 2017 - 04:40am PT
Yes, Trump IS insane.

And so are YOU ......

Yes Werner, perhaps I am. I hope not.

But as Bob'A points out most of your posts are nonsense. I admire your contribution to SAR, but that does not give you a free ticket to ride. Perhaps you should look closer at who you are.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 3, 2017 - 05:07am PT
I am just a soul whose intentions are good...

Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 3, 2017 - 05:40am PT
Two wrongs don't make a right, and waging war on civilians is always wrong. But in a modern industrial war there aren't many innocents. The Allied area bombing in Europe and then Japan was ugly, but necessary.



Total bull, fire bombing of the entire city of Tokyo was like nothing ever done before...sick and inhumane.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 3, 2017 - 05:41am PT
But to get back on topic... Health care... Our Government provides many guarantees, FDIC for checking /savings accounts... $$$$ to General Motors and Wall Street speculators, to Tessla, to Defence contractors.... the list is a long one. So why can't we have a free market based health care insurance system with a guarantee of coverage for those who might get screwed if an unscrupulous insurance company can not provide service? And for the cost of a B2 or a F22 or two take care of the truly "poor" in that same system?

Good question. IIRC, the public option in Obamacare was eliminated to appease the Republicans.

But then, the GOP is always thinking of what's best for America. Right now they are working to restore my freedom to breathe poisoned air.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-smog-republicans-20170803-story.html

California is confronting the limits of its power to save federal environmental protections as Congress and the Trump administration take aim at a landmark law the state has relied on for decades to clean the air of noxious smog.

A push by Republicans to roll back parts of the Clean Air Act would affect California more than any other state, rattling its lawmakers and regulators. And their legal authority to pick up the fight against California’s smog on their own is constrained.

The House last month passed a bill fiercely opposed by doctors and public health groups, including the American Lung Assn. and the American Academy of Pediatrics, that would delay for years new anti-pollution standards aimed at ultimately preventing 160,000 childhood asthma attacks and as many as 220 premature deaths in California each year.

The Trump administration had already tried using regulatory authority to put the standards on hold for a year, but walked back that action Wednesday after California and 14 other states filed suit against the delay.

The bill advancing in Congress would go much further, permanently upending the way restrictions are imposed on the ozone and small particulate matter that make up smog. No longer would regulators base decisions solely on scientific findings about what level of smog is safe to breathe. The potential cost to business would for the first time loom large in setting limits, and ultimately guide such things as when people with breathing problems are warned to stay indoors.
jstan

climber
Aug 3, 2017 - 05:45am PT
It is now up to Democrats to lay cards on the table... if single payer is what you want... say so in no uncertain terms, so the country can vote on it. Up or Down...make it clear.


Below is a repeat of my earlier post as to my healthcare results since age 65 under medicare, a single payer plan .

Since retiring in 2003 I have kept spreadsheets on healthcare costs and how medicare has responded. During this period the costs have included treatments for cancer and triple bypass heart surgery. Below are tabulated summary figures for the......

Total costs 172883.86

Medicare approved charges 51521.30

Medicare paid 39168.76

Amount I might be billed 14690.84

Paid by gap policy 13492.95

Cost of gap policy(F) 28199.72

1. Under medicare, healthcare cost was reduced by 70%.

2. Medicare paid 76% of the approved charge

3. The gap policy paid 92% of what I might have been billed

4. I paid 0

5. The gap policy gained a net revenue flow of $14707. A gain roughly equal to the benefit I got from the policy.

I don't expect any funny business on the part of the gap insurer, in the near term.



Bottom line

We can't expect a 70% reduction in total national health costs by going to single payer.

My experience, however, suggests we need to use data and not what some talking head says as we go about resolving this problem.

Edit:
Before I forget. since 2008 the cost of my gap policy has risen 3% each year. Inflation rates have been somewhere between 1.5% and 1.8% per annum.

Both the cost of the policy and the rate of annual increase in that cost, when compared to my experience,

involve a wonderful factor of 2. Curious.


CMS, the accounting function for medicare supplied me with the data in my spreadsheets and it could easily produce this summary data for all its participants. This could be programmed in minutes. There will be a distribution that could directly illuminate the issues for us.


On another topic:

It is well to bear in mind that none of us posting here have the slightest clue about the context of 7 years of unimaginable global carnage, 4 of them involving the U.S. Even just talking to parents or grandparents who lived through does not come close to fully understanding it.

I was young but I was very much aware of the war from 41 through 45. It was not at all clear how it was going to turn out. And it was not at all clear how many of us were going to be killed. A lot of young guys from our town weren’t coming back. As to the second bomb watch some of the media concerning the war in the south Pacific. Our band’s bass drummer served in the S. Pacific. He said MacArthur always kept a dozen marines around him to protect him from our soldiers.

There was no way we were going to accept the casualties such as at Iwo Jima, while invading the home islands; while leaving an alternative unused. Politically impossible. And if NK tries to nuke us there is no way we will not attempt a final solution to the threat voiced out of NK. WWIII.

We have elected a president entirely unfit for the office. WWI started in just such a situation. Battles with more than a million casualties soon set everyone straight. Americans have become used to the idea that there are no consequences. Nothing hurts me.

Grow up.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 3, 2017 - 06:01am PT
"But as Bob'A points out most of your posts are nonsense. I admire your contribution to SAR, but that does not give you a free ticket to ride. Perhaps you should look closer at who you are."



Werner is a religious zealot who thinks he knows it all. As to SAR, he is getting paid to do a job. I started my volunteering for SAR back in 1973 in Santa Fe, NM, the dude has no higher ground to claim.
WBraun

climber
Aug 3, 2017 - 07:34am PT
Vlad Pricker -- "Yes Werner, perhaps I am. I hope not."

This means you are NOT insane and passed your own test.

We can all be insane at certain times in our thoughts.

As for the insane boob D' A, LOL, he's a sorry nutcase.

I don't do SAR and it has nothing to do with any of this subject matter anyways ....
c wilmot

climber
Aug 3, 2017 - 07:45am PT
Werner is a religious zealot who thinks he knows it all. As to SAR, he is getting paid to do a job. I started my volunteering for SAR back in 1973 in Santa Fe, NM, the dude has no higher ground to claim.

A psychologist would say you are holding resentment and are jealous for not being good enough to be hired on SAR. I would say you are just an old angry man
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 3, 2017 - 08:12am PT
We have elected a president entirely unfit for the office. WWI started in just such a situation. Battles with more than a million casualties soon set everyone straight. Americans have become used to the idea that there are no consequences. Nothing hurts me.

Trump was also elected to rid the world of enemies of the white man, mostly perceived.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:06am PT
"white man ain't worth nuthin' in the world no mo"

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 3, 2017 - 09:22am PT


Trump's Lies: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html?_r=0

Trump's Lies is in reality a pleonasm. The name Trump says it all.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 3, 2017 - 10:14am PT
"A psychologist would say you are holding resentment and are jealous for not being good enough to be hired on SAR. I would say you are just an old angry man"


It is called volunteering for a reason. I didn't want pay.
Jorroh

climber
Aug 3, 2017 - 10:26am PT
"Good question. IIRC, the public option in Obamacare was eliminated to appease the Republicans"

Joe Liebermann (D/I from Connecticut) dropped that turd I believe.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 3, 2017 - 10:46am PT
Tad for the win.

Very jealous. I was on the Big Island about this time last year. Not a lick of climbing but it was AWESOME. Enjoy.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 3, 2017 - 10:58am PT

"Aug 3, 2017 - 04:27am PT
Wow most of you guys have no idea about history... so you are condemned to repeat it.

I call BS on that Guyman, you have no idea what I know.

EDIT

Go on and support your Trump, it just shows what you know. You come across as well informed, yet you seem to wear the pink glasses and drink the kool aid.

Guyman, your distaste for the status quo is well known by now, and I would think many of us agree, to an extent. But what are your alternatives, solutions?

Did we cross swords in Camp 4? Nope, the only swords I crossed in C4 are no longer with us, sadly."

Vlad.... I directed that comment to the posters who wish to re-write history... I don't see where you have tried to do that.
And it is true that I know nothing about you.
How can I? You hide behind a avatar.
Maybe we crossed paths in C4... a bunch of my friends from there have also passed on.

The only thing I will say about President Trump is this ... about a 1,000 times better and more entertaining then a Hillary Clinton administration, that would have been a different sort of a disaster of a different type.

Guy Keesee
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 3, 2017 - 11:42am PT
"The only thing I will say about President Trump is this ... about a 1,000 times better and more entertaining then a Hillary Clinton administration, that would have been a different sort of a disaster of a different type. "


Hilarious for all the wrong reasons.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 3, 2017 - 11:46am PT
Hilarious for all the wrong reasons.

As is laughing/enjoying SOMEONE else's pain and struggles and I have read on here plenty of times the joy folks get from liberals being pissed. Where do you learn this?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 3, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
The only thing I will say about President Trump is this ... about a 1,000 times better and more entertaining then a Hillary Clinton administration

to quote ronnie ray gun, well there you go again. you know what they say about assuming something.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 3, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
Nothing more entertaining than a Russian collusion probe

Special Counsel Robert Mueller Assembles Grand Jury, Ramping Up Russia Probe

It signifies an aggressive and prolonged investigation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/robert-mueller-grand-jury-russia-probe_us_59837b30e4b0cb15b1bd6508?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

The Hillary fake scandals are so boring, all smoke and no fire.
But with Trump and his mafia goons, it's six scandals at a time

what can be more entertaining than watching the Donald quivering with guilt
The MSM is making billions of this sh#t show!!!
I can't take my eyes off the train wreck,
it's good to hear that the other side is coping well with a steady stream of "right wing state media propaganda" of trump lies

He should've just stayed away from politics, but unfortunately his narcissistic nature got the best of him and he had to become king for a day.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 3, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
Oh come on Craig...It's a hoax...They should be looking for Hillary's emails...
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 3, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
NO - it's the uranium I tell ya. Hilary sold it to the Russians.




Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 3, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
"NO - it's the uranium I tell ya."

Yes she personally sold tons of it. :-)


And Mexico is going to pay for the wall.




drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 3, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
and... Bob dUh(aka The Tin Man) will finally get a heart this year. He's good on lube

It's true
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 4, 2017 - 12:32am PT
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 4, 2017 - 07:37am PT
We can all be insane at certain times in our thoughts.

Well, Werner, you won't get an argument from me on that point.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 4, 2017 - 07:46am PT
How can I? You hide behind a avatar.

Guyman, I think most Supertopians know who I am. And I am here for the entertainment, a bit of bull and just to keep in touch. I still say it is one of the best forums, and about the only one I post to nowadays.

I wish I could post more climbing-related stuff. I do miss California, it has so much rock, whereas, where I live, good luck. Some small outcrops on the beach. But they are mine in as much as I am the only person to boulder on them. Good rock, great view, on a clear day Wales and France. Hah hah, or perhaps those are just the ferries.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 4, 2017 - 07:49am PT
on a clear day Wales and France

Hmmm, what gud peepers you must 'ave! And I would aver yer seeing faeries, not ferries. :-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 4, 2017 - 11:15am PT
During the 2016 campaign, Trump repeatedly promised that he would refuse to take vacation in order to keep doing the work of the American public.
"I would rarely leave the White House because there's so much work to be done," Trump said in July 2015. "I would not be a president who took vacations. I would not be a president that takes time off."
"I'm going to be working for you," Trump said in August 2016. "I'm not going to have time to go play golf."

President Donald Trump is set to depart the White House later today for a 17-day working vacation at his golf club in New Jersey.

Trump's vacation, as The Washington Post's Philip Bump notes, is twice as long as the vacation President Barack Obama took to Martha's Vineyard in his first year in office -- and will mean Trump has spent 53 "leisure" days through August 2017 as compared to 15 for Obama through August 2009.


the fact is, I don't have any problem with Presidents taking whatever vacation they want, as Reagan said: escaping the nicest prison in the world. It's not like they are out of touch.

It's the hypocrisy, of pounding your predecessor for doing something, then doing much more of it yourself. And filling your coffers at the same time renting golf carts to the Secret Service for many tens of thousands.....

WBraun

climber
Aug 4, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
No sh!t????

So that explains it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 4, 2017 - 11:11pm PT
Vlad Pricker = drF you dummies....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 4, 2017 - 11:22pm PT
Two grand juries - Virginia and DC.

And I'm betting Mueller will empanel at least three more grand juries in NYC, Delaware and Miami before long and also suspect they've start re-combing through the...



Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 4, 2017 - 11:34pm PT
Maybe they can charge the perps with state offences, Trump or his successor can not pardon those.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 5, 2017 - 09:37am PT
Vlad Pricker = Patrick Sawyer.

Wow, good catch Dwayne, except most Suptertopians knew it by now. What took you so long? Slow on the uptake, are you? Guyman was slow too.

I find posting under such an avatar has made me more restrained, funny enough.

I will write more later, but I have to move a car. Don't hold your breath, I am not worth it.

But if you want to duke it out, meet me at Aunt Fanny's Pantry, you lead, that climb is frightening.

And I am just having fun, how about you? We can take ourselves too serious at times.

EDIT

Cosmic, I cannot afford to fly to California and Aunt Fanny's. I'd love to be in Yosemite, but not at this moment in time. We may disagree on issues, political bull, but we are both climbers, and I would guess you love the rock as much as I do.

There is very little here in Wexford, count your blessings, California has the best rock, well, there are other places as well.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 5, 2017 - 09:47am PT
I suspected Vlad was Sawyer...Now i know...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 5, 2017 - 10:04am PT
And you knew all along John. How is the East Side? How is King Clod?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 5, 2017 - 11:19am PT
In one recent poll, the three candidates are polling in the 20s. Moore is leading; the PAC’s attacks are driving some Brooks voters to Moore. Among voters who say they are familiar with all three, Strange is third. A runoff seems certain, and if Moore (sometimes called “the Ayatollah of Alabama”) is in it and wins, a Democrat could win the Dec. 12 general election.

“Anything that comes out of the South,” said writer Flannery O’Connor, a sometime exemplar of Southern Gothic, “is going to be called grotesque by the Northern reader, unless it is grotesque, in which case it is going to be called realistic.” But, realistically, Alabama’s primary says more about Republicans than about this region. A Michigan poll shows rocker-c#m-rapper Kid Rock a strong potential Republican Senate candidate against incumbent Debbie Stabenow. Rock says Democrats are “shattin’ in their pantaloons” because if he runs it will be “game on mthrfkers.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 5, 2017 - 11:20am PT
A debt-ceiling crisis is on its way. Yes, again.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 5, 2017 - 11:24am PT
Vote Vlad and be had ...Better start burnin those tapes asap Pricker...rj
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 5, 2017 - 11:35am PT
And you are rotten, John, hah hah.

Tapes? I have no recollection of tapes.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 5, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
And you know, I can be a pain in the ass, but I love life. I hope you all do. It is worth it.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 6, 2017 - 10:53am PT
I've had to retire from climbing over a year ago because of my bad back
and numb feet.

I know Dwayne, I have been following your situation. I am sorry you cannot climb anymore. Any hope on the horizon?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 6, 2017 - 10:56am PT
Dwain... I thought it was a bad back and a numb skull...? rj
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 6, 2017 - 10:58am PT
it is funny. When we have sun, we complain no rain (California). And when we have rain (this is a wet summer in Ireland), some moan. and yet some of southern Europe is sweltering. There is no justice in life.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 7, 2017 - 05:49am PT
The next policy issue, besides neutering our impulsive, know-nothing, narcissist in chief, might be avoiding an entirely avoidable debt ceiling crisis, brought to you by your friendly neighborhood anti-government Republicans, who show no inclination or aptitude for governing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/opinion/debt-ceiling-congress-default-real.html?ref=opinion


Can't blame the Dems for this clusterf---.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 7, 2017 - 06:28am PT
Day one we will repeal and replace Obamacare. LOL
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 7, 2017 - 07:04am PT

So far I'm liking what President Trump has done to and with McConnell and Ryan. These three may turn out to be the weakest 'leaders' in the history of the U.S. - The Do-Nothings Cubed!

Doing nothing is the best these three can hope to accomplish.

The fact they 'control' (hahahahahahah!) both houses and the Presidency, and still can't pass any legislation?

Laughable.

DMT

That's the thing, repubs/conservatives like to complain, but can't produce a solution to a perceived problem.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 7, 2017 - 07:47am PT
Yeah, 7 years to come up with a meaningful replacement to the ACA, and instead they proposed a series of cruel jokes. Anyone paying attention knew they were lying all along.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 7, 2017 - 08:00am PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 7, 2017 - 08:11am PT
Lock her up...!!
dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
It would be great if our chicken hawk commander in chief could show a little restraint and stfu.

Yeah...dream on.


President Trump on Tuesday issued a stern warning to North Korea, saying that if its threats to the United States continue, the outcast nation will be “met with the fire and the fury like the world has never seen.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/08/08/trump-vows-north-korea-will-be-met-with-fire-and-fury-if-threats-continue/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_nkorea-345pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4c719a2ad0ab
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 8, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
When is congress going to get off their lazy asses and impeach the SOB?

Seriously, we are being led by a 12 yr old school yard bully with no self awareness. Who wants him to have the nuclear codes? Is he dumb enough to think he is somehow intimidating them into submission with his tweets and apocalyptic rhetoric? They don't give a sh*t. Their leader is insane and they have nothing to say about it.

Hmmm...sounds like us.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
Here's a link to a CNBC article comparing tax rates between Canada & the U.S. & what folks in each country get for their tax bites.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/heres-what-canadians-get-for-all-those-taxes-they-pay/ar-AApCtnZ?li=BBnbfcN

Taxes are similar, but benefits for Canadians are much greater, per the article.

"American marginal tax brackets aren't too different from Canadians', yet [Canadians] get universal health care and [Americans] don't." Currently, Americans pay $3.4 trillion a year for medical care and, unfortunately, don't get impressive results: "The U.S. life expectancy of 78.8 years ranks 27th. It has the fourth highest infant mortality rate in the OECD, the sixth highest maternal mortality rate and the ninth highest likelihood of dying at a younger age from a host of ailments, including cardiovascular disease and cancer," reports Bloomberg.

Per-capita health care spending in the U.S. is over $9,000.

By contrast, per capita health care spending in Canada is half that, or $4,500. Yet life expectancy in Canada is 81.7, and the country ranks 13th, significantly ahead of the U.S.

Critics of Canada's single-payer health care system call it a "cautionary tale," one that's "failing." It's universal and affordable, sure, but the quality isn't high. And the waits for procedures can be unnecessarily long: As Forbes points out, "In 2013, the average wait time for an MRI was over two months, while Canadians needing a CT scan waited for almost a month."

Overall, though, Canadians enjoy the kind of perks Americans only get if they work for the most generous, prestigious corporations. Those include free health care without deductibles as well as up to 18 months of subsidized parental leave when they have children.

They also enjoy access to high-quality education for children across the income spectrum. Even top-notch colleges and universities are cheaper than comparable institutions in the U.S.

But one thing the U.S. gets, is the world's biggest military.

As of April 2017, the U.S. spent $611 billion on defense, which, as the Peterson Foundation points out, is "more than China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, United Kingdom, India, France and Japan combined." Additionally, "the United States has historically devoted a larger share of its economy to defence, than many of its allies."

About one-half of all U.S. discretionary spending goes to the military
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 8, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
It's over We are screwed.

You were already screwed a long time ago by letting yourselves being brainwashed by 911.

You fools believe all that horsesh!t you're constantly fed by your corrupt govt in DC, and media ...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 8, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
trump is deranged.

Trump is also a prime reason why I don't think anyone over the age of seventy should be president, and I don't care if they are liberal, conservative, or libertarian. There needs to be an age limit.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 8, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
Some one please take the needle off the broken record that is Werner.
jstan

climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
The North's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said its military was "carefully examining the operational plan for making an enveloping fire at the areas around Guam with medium-to-long-range strategic ballistic rocket Hwasong-12".

It said the plan would be reported to the Supreme Command after "full examination and completion" and put into practice at the order of leader Kim Jong-un, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/politics/lawmakers-trump-fire-fury-north-korea-mccain/index.html


When questioned as to what the US would do if someone did something, President Eisenhower responded. "The US government does not respond to hypotheticals."

The NK statement appears to posit a demonstration attack on Guam. They talk about "enveloping fire."

Eisenhower never told Hitler he was pissed. He just assembled all the thousands of ships and men needed to land on France. In line with this we might:

1. Quietly assemble all the radar assets, surface to surface missiles, and intermediate range missiles, to effect radar sensing of NK 24/7 sufficient to determine missile targets early in boost phase. Then tell China what they can expect should the US be attacked by NK.

2. If such an attack is detected intercepts in boost phase over NK territory might be made. At a ten to one ratio if that is what is required for high reliability.

3. Begin a Manhattan Project level effort to develop higher reliability exoatmospheric ICBM intercept capability. Including the ability to distinguish which warheads have the mass of true warheads.

4. Maintain 24/7 talks with China and Russia to find a way to deal with NK that is clearly not intended to affect the security of those two states.

5. Begin thinking more deeply about how the US can adapt to future Russian and Chinese policies. The thinking of those two states has changed radically as the US has begun its post WWII withdrawal from the international stage..

We need to recognize that things are changing. We need an endpoint strategy. Long term, will China disagree even with out presence in Guam? We have much thinking to do.

And finally long term, the US needs to put Bell Labs or its equivalent back together again.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 8, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Trumps fire and fury remarks aren't appreciated...Egging on North Korea's psychotic dictator is a piss poor strategy considering how low Trump's reputation with the rest of the world is.. Atta boy jack-ass...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 8, 2017 - 11:22pm PT
The whole star wars thing is as ridiculous today as it was in the 80's - it's not an answer or a solution.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 9, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Can you run for president after being impeached and thrown out of office?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 9, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Our failed experiment of a nation needs a war, a huge one. It matters not who wears the presidential puppet skin. With the orange one there at least was a delay before he was ahem... reminded.... of who runs the show.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 9, 2017 - 07:28am PT
Being reckless with other people's lives is nothing to boast about or even consider. Many of us have family in the military and and we all live in the hot zone if nuclear war starts. Even with a conventional war tens of thousand of our South Korean allies and American service people over there would likely die. Keep your 1950's John Wayne Hollywood mentality to yourselves and do not play fast and loose with other people's lives. If you don't have a solution to avoid war, then zip It.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 9, 2017 - 07:31am PT
Gary, the senate can decide, as part of the impeachment trial conviction, to allow or not another presidential bid.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 9, 2017 - 09:06am PT
So you Guys really think your going to impeach President Trump???

freaking laughable...


Props to Jstan for a well thought out post....

I offer another strategy. If China will not go in and liquidate fat boy....

then we should make sure that Taiwan has atomic weapons and missiles also.

I wonder how they would like that??????




Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 9, 2017 - 10:30am PT
So you Guys really think your going to impeach President Trump???

No, Guy, we are not. The Republicans are going to get rid of him. He's totally derailed their agenda and is screwing them for 2018.

Do you honestly think there is a single Republican in congress who wouldn't prefer Pence in charge?

If they don't before 2020 I have $100 for the charity of your choice.

Gary, the senate can decide, as part of the impeachment trial conviction, to allow or not another presidential bid.

Thanks, monolith, I didn't know that.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 9, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
If they don't before 2020 I have $100 for the charity of your choice.


I think you welched on other offers.... so I no take offer. I don't have time to go back over the taco and find in one if the deleted threads of a political nature.

If I am incorrect i apologize in advance.


you democrats are just grasping at straws- chasing smoke- as you have been ever scene that extremely flawed Clinton candidate was defeated at the polls... fare and square. If you all can not accept that fact you are un-american.

So keep on hurting our Nation it will survive despite you traitors.

and what comes around goes around.

end of story.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 9, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
TRUMP for President in,2020!

I know it's a little hard to tell, but I think Trump is our president now.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 9, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
Come on guyman...


I know a bit over the top....

but nevertheless.... what the Democrats are doing... making up stories, inventing mud... is unprecedented in our history.

meth
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 9, 2017 - 01:00pm PT
Well, I guess there won't be a need for that wall anymore.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 02:08pm PT
I offer another strategy. If China will not go in and liquidate fat boy..

Which fat boy: ours or theirs?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
but nevertheless.... what the Democrats are doing... making up stories, inventing mud... is unprecedented in our history.

Wait - did you just say "unprecedented"? WTF, were you in a complete coma for the sixteen years Clinton and Obama were in office and Faux, rightwing radio / bloggers, and republicans in general became veritable scifi and fantasy writers?

And there is no need at all to invent or make up anything with trump - he's a sociopath, liar, criminal and traitor indicted by his very own words and public actions.

Talks about utterly delusional.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 9, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
The N Koran hysteria is hysterical.

I couldn't agree more.

WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
Norton

Social climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
Here you go Guyman, Cosmic, et all

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 9, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
Hahaha norton... did you rip that off from Pyro?


And Healyie.... why yes. President Obama, in his or on his official biography book flap/cover... proclaimed to be a poor black man from Kenya.

And IT WAS HRC or one of her henchmen/henchwomen who started the whole burther thing.... to keep him from getting the nomination.... the Republicans just started parroting and increasing the volume....but they didnt make up mean stories about his Family and when the story was proved to be false.... go and make up yet another one.

but President Trump has almost the entire MEDIA making up stories with breathless pieholes announcing almost everyday.... "this is it for Trump.....""""

makes me sick...

but please keep it up, I find it most enjoyable reading your wild speculations.

And to Somebody..... I sure hope that Fatboys first atomic bomb is not aimed at Osan AFB.
Believe me... im not pushing for war with that puny insignificant "NATION" they are not worth it.... but they are in the pocket of the Chinese and the Chinese had better go and remove his ass ASAP so missiles don't start flying all over the place. That my friend would be really bad for business.


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 9, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
I love the smell of nuclear fallout in the morning...

Go Cheeto Jesus! The Russians will be proud.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-started-birther-movement/

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
I think you welched on other offers....

That's a low blow, Guy, and uncalled for.

If I am incorrect i apologize in advance.

Apology accepted.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
No way you're going to get through to Trumpkins like guyman. Once you buy into the Breitbart/Hannity/Levin etc. world it's a lost cause.

And Cosmic...what are you doing with all your healthcare expense savings?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
" snopes.com ..."

Naturally since trumpeters are so interested in the truth, they will be listing and apologizing for all their mistakes




any minute now







wait for it






keep waiting
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
Actually that would be great! He'd do his press conferences from the Mayor's Dias at Stony Point, eh?

I really think that's part of the problem. Too much time spent at Stony. I got tired of that place in the seventies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
And Healyie.... why yes. President Obama, in his or on his official biography book flap/cover... proclaimed to be a poor black man from Kenya.

Yes, a run of them went out with an incorrect back jacket cover written by a person at the publisher who didn't read it or check their facts.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:29pm PT

Politard threads are almost bearable when drinking beer from a Bristlecone Forest mug!
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Obama's Dreams of my father biography cover never claimed he was born in Kenya. The 1991 promotional booklet put out by his literary agency to promote 90 authors was where the mistake was made.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
oh gee, that is too bad, Trump voters just know its true, Obama Obsession Derangement

so where did guyman read that anyway, some guy in Tennessee posting in his parents basement?

I heard it from a guy who heard it that Obama was created in a petri dish in Iran, sent to Syria where he trained in a terrorist camp, sent to the US with instructions to go to Harvard then become a US Senator, then President, all with the intent of carrying out future ISIS commands

ain't that right, honey guy guy?
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
What a bunch of stoopid politards ^^^^^^

You're just like Trump .... stoopid .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 10:04pm PT
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 9, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
Reilly- That's my teacup on the morning.

Egads ... Why the hell am I reading this thread ? Back to cats and insetcs where I belong.

Duke

Social climber
PSP
Aug 9, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
http://modernliberals.com/dumbfk-missile-crisis/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 10, 2017 - 07:14am PT
Politard threads are almost bearable when drinking beer from a Bristlecone Forest mug!

Nice mug! Perfect for a steaming cupefe of covefe...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 10, 2017 - 08:11am PT
Fear, I'm outta covefe, had a nice cuppa tea today.
I think it was Pyongyang Oowrong.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 10, 2017 - 09:16am PT
So Cosmic, guyman, etc

What do you say about this?

**How many times has Trump gone golfing as president?
During the campaign, Trump argued that Americans should vote for him because he would rarely leave Washington. He promised that he wouldn't go golfing or take vacations, because there was too much work to do.**

Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Can you believe that,with all of the problems and difficulties facing the U.S., President Obama spent the day playing golf.Worse than Carter

But more than four months into his term, Trump has visited more golf courses at a faster clip than his three most recent predecessors, according to The New York Times. Politifact reports that at this point in his presidency, Obama had gone golfing 11 time, while Trump has golfed at least 21 times.

The president's trips can cost taxpayers millions of dollars because of the use of Air Force One and the expenses of the Secret Service, the Air Force, local sheriff's departments, the Coast Guard and other agencies
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 10, 2017 - 09:19am PT
I think guyman is a-ok.

I don't. When he calls people who have an opposing political viewpoint, traitors. That's horsesh#t.

I have not seen bluering, cosmic, etc., called traitors.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 10, 2017 - 09:36am PT
Half of repubs would back postponing 2020 election if Trump proposed it.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/346000-poll-about-half-of-republicans-would-back-postponing-2020-election-if-trump
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 10, 2017 - 09:38am PT
Blue just called you a commie. :-)
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 10, 2017 - 10:22am PT
10b .... good morning. I did not call you a traitor... I called all Democrats traitors due to the actions that they are doing right now, today....I bit of a over-statement I reckon.

I believe it is the Duty of every American to accept the results of a election-- move on and get political if need be to change the direction in the next election.

Pretty simple, no?

The last time the looser was this pissed off.... we had a thing called The Civil War if you can remember your American History.

Thats just the way I roll .... sorry if it offends.

DMT.... Thanks.

Norton, Gary, Locker, Crank, Vlad and others ... you are entertaining and passionate in your views and what you post on ST. I don't get offended at all. I know that I would tie in with any of you without hesitation.

and here is one of my favorite songs of all time. Just to lighten up things a bit.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
I have not seen bluering, cosmic, etc., called traitors.

No, but trumpco is a nest of traitors and their supports, while naive, still risk accusations of witless collaboration to treason.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
Trumpy used hacked information about Hillary provided by Vlady's henchmen to influence the election....follow the money...Little Hands is going to get impeached and it ain't for getting a blow job from an intern...
Norton

Social climber
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
I claim the coveted 2000th post !

And I award it to guyman for being so entertaining
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 11, 2017 - 08:45am PT
Jim Brennan.... oh so sorry, frantically typing on a iPhone while speeding on the 405 can lead one to misspell... so sorry.

And To Norton... sure I will accept the honor.


So to toss more wood on the fire.....

How do you all see this NorthKorea thing working out?

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama kicked the can down the road.... and look at what we have NOW.

Fatboy with a bomb and a missile to get it to at least Guam.

We were promised by all four presidents that the "treaty" ... or is it Treaties (jim B help me here, please...)would ensure lasting peace.

I see all of them (4 presidents) holding up a scrap of paper... in my mind.

The end of the road????
dirtbag

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Probably more of the same, in the end. At least, I hope, as it seems to be the least bad option. NK gets its long range nukes, we sleep less easily at night but get used to it, sanctions tighten and maybe work, maybe not, and life goes on.

China and Russia were far more powerful and had thousands of nukes pointed at us for decades. Somehow we managed to survive that, although there were at least a couple of close calls.

Starting a war right now would devastate many countries. We've already had one major recent misadventure in preventative warfare. I hope we've learned a few things.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:09am PT
while speeding on the 405

Now I know you're lying. :-)

Well, Guy, we have a spoiled brat rich boy surrounded by yes men with a nuclear arsenal at his fingertips. Then combine that with spoiled brat rich boy surrounded by yes men Kim Jong Un and what do you think will happen?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Guyman seems to be just another chickenhawk, Trump doesn't learn anything from history because his cup is full, he knows all.


NK is just protecting it's interest, can't say I much blame them, look what happened to the the leaders in Iraq and Libya.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:11am PT
A little nuclear winter could be just what this climate change thingy needs. It's all part of some greater plan, trust me.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:17am PT
Gary, where is Slim Pickens when you need him?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:25am PT
How many other countries than the US have dropped nuclear bombs on their enemies during war?


Zero.
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:41am PT
Boob --- "How many other countries than the US have dropped nuclear bombs on their enemies during war?"
Zero


Israel ya ignorant fool.

But you'll never find it because it's so well censored by them thru their controlled media and their trolls everywhere.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:42am PT
Gary, where is Slim Pickens when you need him?

Shoot, he's having a pretty good weekend in Vegas.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:58am PT
"After I beat them, I'm going to be so presidential, you're going to be so bored, you're going to say, this is the most boring human being I've ever interviewed," Trump assured Fox News Channel host Sean Hannity in an April 2016 interview.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 11, 2017 - 10:16am PT
Israel ya ignorant fool.

So the answer is the same, the US and guess what...they got us to pay for it too!!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 11, 2017 - 10:23am PT
"Israel ya ignorant fool.

But you'll never find it because it's so well censored by them thru their controlled media and their trolls everywhere."


Really. LOL


So enlighten us oh special one. How in the f*#k can you censored dropping a nuclear bomb during war time?
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:25am PT
The little ignorant fool boob has no clue to the many different types of nukes nowadays and how they do not leave signatures in their wake like the old caveman nukes from the very early days.

Ignorant Boob only knows two things .... nothing except pictures of birds and bolts .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:34am PT
"The little ignorant fool boob has no clue to the many different types of nukes nowadays and how they do not leave signatures in their wake like the old caveman nukes from the very early days.

Ignorant Boob only knows two things .... nothing except pictures of birds and bolts ....."



Which translates into I (Werner) got nothing. The super supreme gross physical being has spoken.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
There is no evidence, zero, that nuclear weapons have been used outside of Japan '45. Just another crazy conspiracy theory like the faked moon landing and 9/11 inside-job lunacy.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Werner is going to be a contributor...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/infowars-alex-jones-newswars-fake-news_us_598df071e4b09071f6996f12?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 11, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
nuclear weapons

=

DU

Very well documented, look it up.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Aug 11, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
That duck is quite the little Nazi isn't he?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 11, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
nuclear weapons

=

DU

Very well documented, look it up.


DU is used as a highly dense penetrator used in larger caliber anti-armor rounds... Although slightly radioactive it's mainly the toxic effects of the metal itself. You wouldn't want to breathe the uranium dust/particles in, but it falls well outside traditional use of nuclear or fission/fusion weapons.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
I believe it is the Duty of every American to accept the results of a election-- move on and get political if need be to change the direction in the next election.

Yes. It was an absolute tragedy the way Nixon was hounded from office. So disrespectful to those that voted for him. Very unpatriotic. Get rid of the checks and balances immediately.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
Trump says he’s considering pardon for Joe Arpaio

Oh, the power of pardon, generally used for righting a wrong, will now be used for a political payback.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 14, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
Trump says he’s considering pardon for Joe Arpaio

yes, because nothing says a US President should respect and uphold the Department of Justice, who's Judge in Arizona found Arpaio guilty of ignoring his orders to cease and desist from singling out Hispanics for stop and searches without legal cause

watch the sh!t hit the fan if he pardons this convicted and sentenced racist criminal
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 14, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
Oh, the power of pardon, generally used for righting a wrong, will now be used for a political payback.

Come on Ken, the presidential pardon has been used for a number of reasons over the years, many not deserving.

I think it should be very limited in scope, to truly miscarriages of justice. But then, I am an idealist.

EDIT

And frost in August? What happened to summer? This is supposed to be the Sunny Southeast. I could understand, perhaps, the midlands, but 60 meters from the Celtic Sea? Oceans are supposed to moderate climates. It must be global climate cooling. I blame France. Or England (a favorite ball to kick here).

I'd imagine it is nice and sunny in the Meadows. Nothing like running to Cathedral Peak, climbing it and looking out across one of the most beautiful vistas. Tuolumne kicks ass.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 14, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
Sort of like a snowstorm in August on the way to the Price Glacier, Mt Shuksan.

Snow in August (1973) in the Cascades? WTF? We had a tent though, and some hooch.

Oh yeah, thread drift.

What now about Mr Trump?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
I remain puzzled by the celebration of the Confederacy---made up of traitors to the United States. Putting up statutes to their leaders?

Are we putting up statues of Benedict Arnold, next? How about Robert Hanssen, the spy?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 14, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
Ken, a very valid point, in a neutral eye.

But while Robert E Lee (West Point) was no doubt a military strategist, you are correct, he did rebel against his nation. And for what?

On the simple note, a state's right to govern outside of federal law. So slaves are okay (in the Old Testament perhaps, but the New Testament?, if one is religious), and "we will not be dictated by Washington, for our economic progress".

Is it really that simple? Actually, yes. Economics. (And the feeling that non-whites - people who are not caucasians - are nothing but cattle.)

Even asians but wait, Cauc-Asians?
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 14, 2017 - 10:17pm PT
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 14, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
Gosh Bushman, the Aryan Race must hate to see such a picture. A non-Aryan that is armed and serving as a steward of the peace.

This whole effing thing makes me sick. America is sick. What can we do but pontificate on the Taco Stand.

We have the Trump apologists, we have the conservative voices, we have the liberal voices, but where is the sense of it. Who listens?
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 14, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Is the question; what does it take before we truly listen, when we become teachable? Is it too late for the new generation of young people to have their opinions and hearts swayed from a philosophy which is already ingrained in them?

Very few people that I talk to have a solid grasp of history. Without history we have little to gauge the causes of present socio-political events or any kind of clue what these events mean as they transpire.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 14, 2017 - 11:52pm PT
but where is the sense of it.

the sense of it runs like this:

There is a narrative that runs that the Nazis arose because it was an inherent trait of the germanic peoples.

But this stuff gives the lie to that. It does not belong to them, it can belong to any race, any culture, any society. We are not immune to becoming monsters.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:42am PT
Priority #1 is getting the racist out of the presidency.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:30am PT
Guyman, President Trump's admin will attempt an assassination to take out senior leadership at a meeting somewhere. A bloody coup will occur, with western interests backing a mutiny from the military.

But which senior leader will the Trump admin assassinate?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 15, 2017 - 07:03am PT
Hopefully Bannon and Miller with Gorka as collateral damage.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 08:20am PT
I just read that Trump has 36 million twitter followers. Now some have to be newspeople and/or opponents, but that's an awful lot of dumbing down right there.

monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 15, 2017 - 08:23am PT
Quite a few of them are bots. Both virtual and human.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 08:44am PT
I remain puzzled by the celebration of the Confederacy---made up of traitors to the United States. Putting up statutes to their leaders?


Ken..... you are puzzled? Have you no sense of history? George Washington was a traitor to his nation- England. You sound about as understanding as the Taliban.

History is just that... HISTORY: what once was.

So just what should President Trump do to satisfy you folks?


And To Vlad.... I hate this sh#t too. (TM and the rest of the Sierra is looking really fine right now, water and snow everywhere and the Owens Valley is starting to look green again.)

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:08am PT
So just what should President Trump do to satisfy you folks?

Resign. That would be a good start. And just shut his mouth and quit, especially his tweets.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:26am PT
How many BOTZ?

Because Donald Trump is the president of the United States and the most famous person on the planet, one wouldn't think he would need to employ a bot to boost his Twitter following. It appears, however, he might have done just that. As screenwriter John Niven pointed out Tuesday morning, Trump's Twitter account saw an unusual spike in followers over the weekend, many of which appear to have been created artificially.

Trump currently has 31 million followers and, sure enough, if you browse through them you will find an unusual number of tweet-less, picture-less accounts that joined the service in May 2017. If you're still curious, you can enter Trump's handle, @realDonaldTrump, into Twitter Audit, a service that assesses the authenticity of one's followers, and find that only 51 percent of Trump's are real.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:29am PT
^^^^^^What? 16 million followers is not good enough for him? Can you make money employing BOT's? Why TF would you want 14 million BOT's.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:29am PT
So just what should President Trump do to satisfy you folks?

Well, offhand a ritual seppuku of atonement before he totally destroys everything good America once stood for comes to mind.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:29am PT
A friendly headsup:

Ronaldo is the most famous person on the planet (based on jersey sales).
c wilmot

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:38am PT
And increasingly, hysterical people like me do not like confederate traitors etched into our public stones. We feel acting like the taliban and destroying these symbols actually serves to help perpetrate racial divides over generations.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:38am PT
Resign. That would be a good start. And just shut his mouth and quit, especially his tweets.

Not going to happen, my friend..... try a different answer.

And to those who are all bent out of shape about the KKK having a rally...or a march.... It is their right to do so. That right has been upheld over and over by the Supreme Court. Remember Skokie, Il. ?????

We all have rights to free speech... you must take the good with the bad.


EDIT to add:

DMT.... respectfully disagree, History is important, ever been to Paris France? Lots of monuments to ass hole murderers... good conversation starters for educated people who are not afraid to look at history and its naked truth.




dirtbag

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:47am PT
And increasingly, hysterical people like me do not like confederate traitors etched into our public stones. We feel acting like the taliban and destroying these symbols actually serves to help perpetrate racial divides over generations.


That's not what he said. Lame.

Jorroh

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Ken M said..."There is a narrative that runs that the Nazis arose because it was an inherent trait of the germanic peoples."

I think that is a very minority viewpoint. The basic post-war viewpoint (eg. Shirer) was that the German people were led by the nose towards WW2/Fascism/Holocaust by the Nazi leaders through a combination of propoganda, intimidation, coercion etc.

In the 80's a more nuanced ( and much more credible) narrative arose that the German leaders were a product of that particular time and place, and that their viewpoints and beliefs were shared by quite a significant portion (around 30% depending on what we are talking about in particular) of the German population. This being the culmination of the prior century of history but not really an "inherent trait".
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:16am PT
Good answer, dude. I just see inanimate objects-- from our history- as non- threatening to today's people.

You do have a point about the Flag over a state house... totally wrong.

It's to bad we no longer teach history in our schools.... the youngsters I know do not know jack sh#t about anything that went down 50 years ago yet alone 150 years ago.



And we the people can participate in and even lead that change. And we are.

Yes, we are, leading the charge-- but in what direction?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:18am PT
...as non- threatening to today's people.

Well, that's about as [deliberately] naive as can be.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:39am PT
So just what should President Trump do to satisfy you folks?

guyman, since you still after seven months of evidence do not seem to get it yet...

I suppose in your mind right now Trump has been doing just fine as President, right?
and certainly tens of millions more who like you voted for him feel the same say...

right now you are in a group of people still supporting Trump who are around 35% of the population
the other 65% of Americans are horrified, embarrassed, and insulted with him as President

America has elected a Reality TV Star with zero "qualifications" to be President.
He clearly still after 8 months does not understand how the Federal government works.
You voted for a racist, a man who was sued not once but twice by the Federal government for refusing to rent his properties to black Americans. You had not problem also voting for a liar, a liar of biblical proportions, who lies all day every day. You voted for a man that mental health experts have diagnosed as severely narcissistic, delusional, grandiose. You voted to put in the White House a man who has insulted leaders of world governments and weakened our alliances with the view of the United States now at the lowest level in decades

You voted for a man who stands for nothing but ensuring that other people see how rich he is, who gold plates his toilets, a man who declared business bankruptcy four times, and received four deferments from serving during the Vietnam war, including for a foot ouchy.
You voted for a man who wants to not only make abortion illegal again but also to criminalize both women and their doctors, who wants to take healthcare away from 25 million Americans. Yes guyman, he won with the votes of the "uneducated", lots of them.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Tech company fights federal order for IP addresses of visitors to anti-Trump site

The Justice Department request covers more than 1.3 million IP addresses and includes emails between the site’s organizers and people interested in attending Inauguration Day protests, deleted messages and files, as well as subscriber information and unpublished photos and blog posts stored in the site’s database.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:45am PT
Guyman: Ken..... you are puzzled? Have you no sense of history? George Washington was a traitor to his nation- England. You sound about as understanding as the Taliban.

How many statues of Washington were erected in England? How many stand today?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Norton.... I think you are full of IT.

You still take as fact the "polls" ....


Just you wait for the next election, we will see.


EDIT:
How many statues of Washington were erected in England? How many stand today?

None I reckon, and what the heck does that have to do with anything? Respectfully.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Trump retweets — then deletes — image of train running over CNN reporter

The president was in the midst of a tweetstorm when he sent the image, posted by a supporter who added “Nothing can stop the #TrumpTrain!!" He also appeared to accidentally retweet another post from a man calling him a "fascist."

And who says he wouldn't welcome violence? Who says that he wouldn't order violence if it was within his power?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:49am PT
Merck, Intel, Under Armour CEOs quit council over Trump’s initial response to rally

The decision shows how executives have struggled to balance their desire to engage the White House with growing expectations that they exercise a voice on social issues.


They've held their noses, and held their noses, now they cant stand the stench any longer........
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:54am PT
How many statues of Washington were erected in England? How many stand today?

None I reckon, and what the heck does that have to do with anything? Respectfully.

We have been talking about the concept of erecting statues to traitors of the USA, and how puzzling it is that we should have considered that appropriate.

Geo Wa was, indeed, a traitor to England, and there is no celebration of him among the English.

Robt Lee was a traitor to America, and yet he is celebrated BECAUSE of his sedition with statues all over the place.

Why is it considered appropriate to celebrate a traitor to the country? Are we going to put up statues to American Taliban that have been killed???
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:55am PT
Trump campaign emails show aide’s repeated efforts to set up Russia meetings

A new batch of communications turned over to congressional committees reveals concerns within the campaign about establishing contacts.


drip, drip, drip.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Justice Department at odds with DEA on marijuana research, MS-13

Law enforcement officials say the DEA wants to act on more than two dozen requests to grow pot for research, one of a number of areas in which the anti-drug agency is at odds with the Trump administration.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 15, 2017 - 11:05am PT
Ronaldo

Oh gosh, another egotistical narcissist. Make sure you get his hair correct in his wax figurine.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 15, 2017 - 11:10am PT
Robert E. Lee, like Pocahontas, was a distant relative of mine...
But I have denounced his legacy at every turn.

Now Pocahontas, were she actually my relative, she would be a point of family pride.

But Henry Clay was, in fact, my 9th cousin.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 15, 2017 - 11:32am PT
How many statues of Washington were erected in England? How many stand today?

I used to live in England. I saw no statues of George.

But there is a statue of John Barry, "co-founder/father" of the US Navy, in Wexford town (where he was born, actually Tacumshane, Co Wexford, not far from here).

Don't ask me what that has to do with this thread. Just thought I'd lighten things up.

EDIT
Now, if there was a statue of Ed Barry in Wexford, I'd wonder. However, Ed could do one-arm pull ups, I could never do those.

And Bruce Cook, in his 60s, he used to jam his fist in between the fork of a tree branches and do a one-arm pull-up, this is at Indian Rock in Berkeley. Amazing. But there is no statue of him in the pit.

EDIT
Bushman, only nine cousins? I have loads, many in WVA (Montani semper liberi, Mountaineers are always free, my mom was and proud of being a Mountaineer) and a lot in Washington state.

Lighten up people, let me be the serious one.

They say if you took West Virginia and flattened it out, it would be larger in area than Texas. I do not believe that. It is Fake News. Just ask Donald.

WVA seceded from Virginia, traitors. Are the any statues of Robert E Lee in WVA? Papa Casey (grandfather) has a statue in Pittsburgh, but he didn't fight in the War between the States. He just fought for the miners and steel workers.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
DMT... well put.

+1
Norton

Social climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
You still take as fact the "polls" ....

actually guyman, the polls have been quite accurate, and nothing to do with your vote

take for example the recent Presidential election where the polls projected the Hillary would win by some 2%, and in fact she did, almost three million more votes than the little moron
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
And to those who are all bent out of shape about the KKK having a rally...or a march.... It is their right to do so

just because they could does not mean they should.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
538 had trump to win the electoral college at around 30%. Not bad considering how close those three state results were.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
10B.... should, could, would ..... The KKK much like the *insert hated group here* are entitled to their opinion.

Not me saying this mind you-- rather the ACLU.

[url="http://https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism"]http://https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism[/url]





c wilmot

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
This indeed was a turning point in American politics . I was willing to defend people who I previously felt were being mislabeled by the media. However after that tiki torch march I can no longer defend these people. "white nationalists" "alt right" - whatever the label- they have now owned these terms. They are racist- and open about it. Anyone associating with these people should be viewed as racists, there is no longer a grey area.

If the rebublican party wants to seperate themselves from these groups the time is now

That absurd display of a mob carrying torches was rife with racist connotations

It was indefensible on many levels

i hate to say it- but I was wrong to give these people the benifit of the doubt

I am all for free speech- but that racist display should have been shut down

It was a national embarrassment



zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
get your inanimate objects while they're hot

[Click to View YouTube Video]
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Aug 15, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
Just when I thought trump couldn't be more of a dick, he takes an overdose of Viagra...
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 15, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
Last week it was almost World War III, this week we have to fight World War II again. What a f*#king dick!!
dirtbag

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
Good post c. wilmot.

I'm only now catching up on today's news, but that mealy mouthed what-ifism q and a might have been the all time worst press conference. What a disgrace.

Any president defending or equivocating about neo confderates and Nazis should resign. Now. Duh.

Unfit.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Just because a person is conservative and perhaps likes those statues doesn't mean they are racist.

Calling them racists for being conservative, frankly Ken M you did exactly that farther up this thread, further alienates them and actually breathes more life into racist organizations. I don't think that is a good approach though I certainly understand the sentiment, even if I disagree with it.

With all due respect, *I* did not identify conservatives as racists, I believe that Guyman did. I simply pointed out that considering an attack against racists being an attack against conservatives means that he considers them them same.

*I* don't consider them racists for being conservative, but when they embrace racists as their brothers upholding their beliefs........

As for the statues, it takes considerable gumption to pretent (not that you do), that those statues don't represent a very violent philosophy which is anti-American. That they were traitors is not controversial, they took up arms against America, the precise definition in the Constitution.
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
What a fuked up world you gross materialists are making .....
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 15, 2017 - 05:26pm PT

With all due respect, *I* did not identify conservatives as racists, I believe that Guyman did.

Where did I say that????

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 15, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
I have some newfound respect for wilmot.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
Me too

And guyman? You did not really have to say it

You said it on Nov 8th
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 15, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
The loons hijack the healthcare thread to continue this nonsense...lol

Ken M shows what a bigot he really is by saying Conservatives are racists

Then deletes the statement. DMT snagged it thou....for "historical" purposes

Ken pulled the same bit on a thread about Native Americans.

What a dark, disillusioned soul Ken and his crankloon buddies are.

Once again...the loons tragic comedy on display and in full meltdown mode

More drool rags for the loons haha!!

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
drF, whoever you are, I deleted NO post
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
TRUMP: "Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at us"

But wait, what did he actually say? Huh?

"What about the fact they came charging -- that they came charging with clubs in their hands, swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do," he said.

TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at [indiscernible] – excuse me – what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?

TRUMP: I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. And you had, you had a group on one side that was bad. And you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that, but I'll say it right now. You had a group – you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.


Papa Trump in Klan riot.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2016/02/Fred_News.jpg&w=1484
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
guyman, if you didn't say that, I apologize. The post, itself, is gone, apparently so someone cannot be tagged as the troll they are, so I can't ID the poster.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
Wilmot, I'm impressed.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
Trump can't help being the turd he really is. No matter how many people try to counsel him, he has no self control. He is a racist bigot.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
Eisenhower commenting on Trump's cronies having viewed German death factories.

“The things I saw beggar description…The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering…I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations to propaganda.”
Norton

Social climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Of course not all conservatives are racists

But a large majority of racists vote Republican

They know they are not welcome in the Democratic Party
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 15, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
Time for Trump to take a forced march, like stoopid Germans? I like Ike or was it General Walton Walker..

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 15, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
I suspect all here know that

drF

is a Troll, & only is on ST to make trouble for all.

Management?

Please delete the troll drF

Thank you!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 15, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
I'm not impressed by Wilmot, not a word about Trump and really what has taken him so long?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
Bob, he is reconsidering his position, which is not easy to do. Give him a little time.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
Michelle Obama: "The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are."
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
What trump said today contradicted what his wife, and daughter tweeted, the other day.

Did anyone see the look on John Kelly's face? I wonder how long he stays.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
700+ confederate memorials, most in the south. The toughest to eliminate will be the giant carving on Stone Mountain, Georgia. It's currently protected by state law. And then there is the confederate section at Arlington.

Used to climb on Stone Mountain in the 1950s, before work had recommenced on the carving.

What was once a charming stone monolith, surrounded by unspoiled woods, became a regrettable state park.
nah000

climber
now/here
Aug 15, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
DMT: at least on this recording and to my ears, it is not clear what he said exactly. go to approx 13:43 for the quote...

[Click to View YouTube Video]


and for those who haven't seen it yet, imo this is worthwhile:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 15, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 16, 2017 - 06:02am PT
After what transpired in Charlottesville Saturday, and in light of the president's comments yesterday, I am getting rid of my personally autographed portrait of Adolph Hitler that hangs in my living room, if anyone is interested in taking it...

(I'm sure that joke will backfire on me).

Trumps missed opportunity? Unveiling a new infrastructure project to chisel this crap off of Stone Mountain and restore it to its natural state.


c wilmot

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:11am PT
Leave the statues alone. If they are in a spot that's not appropriate- then move them to a park or other such space. It's a rememberance of a shared collective experience. People forget that the average soldier was not fighting for or against slavery. They we're doing what they had to do in order to survive.

Veterans of the war used to meet together to mourn the dead peacefully.

Why is it that we are making such a fuss over stone representations of solders today?

I really wonder what a union soldier who had spilled blood would think of the entitled kids who tore down that confederate statue.

I am doubtful he would agree that they were fighting oppression

c wilmot

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:45am PT
The increase in monuments at the turn of the century had to do with the use of pneumatic drills and other such moderzinations in the monument carving industry.







dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:59am PT
After yesterday's debacle, I think we can now call it a failed presidency. Any gram of credibility or moral authority that he had as a leader is gone. God help us when we have a crisis.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:08am PT

Like I pointed out above. What Trump said is questionable. Though his intent is clear even if he didn't say "us".

TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at [indiscernible] – excuse me – what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:11am PT
All joking aside, if they haven't already, most Americans will regret that this person was not disqualified from running for office by the electorate at the outset. So many people in public office, news media, and political pundits expected that when this adolescent cloaked in ill gotten wealth became elected he would rise to the occasion and become presidential.

A human being so corroded at the core that the look in his eyes, the swaggering bullying demeanor, and the tone of his voice so alerted me to his façade of corrupt authoritarianism at the outset, and I have never trusted him to be more than the racist sexist greedy bigot that he has always been.

My crude attempts at humor fall short of masking my deep disgust at what has happened to our nation to allow things to to have degenerated this point. Unfortunately the nightmare of such a disgraceful presidency is still in its infancy and the predictable horrors of what might yet come have not dawned upon most people here in America.

I was recently in Canada and spoke with an older climber/family man in Banff about the problems with our falsely fearless leader (such as he is) when the stirrings of the current North Korea pissing match first began between Trump and Kim Jong Un.

The gentleman voiced his overall opinion of his countrymen, telling me that they believed Trump was mentally ill, that he was probably going to start World War III, and that Germany, France, and Canada we're now leading the world on the progressive front. I agreed with him wholeheartedly and assured him that there were still a few decent Americans left here.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:21am PT
After yesterday's debacle, I think we can now call it a failed presidency.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, behold this

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:30am PT
So leftist thugs fight right wing Nazis..... and some snotty reporter wishes to know who has the moral hi-ground????

How the F do you explain that one?


I still support My President... he is so much better than the politics "as usual".

The talking will start right after the screaming dies down... get a grip people.


And North Korea didn't sent 4 ICBMs at Guam... Gee wiz wonder why.

And Elvis died 40 years ago today.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:35am PT
The increase in monuments at the turn of the century had to do with the use of pneumatic drills and other such moderzinations in the monument carving industry.

Lol

I still support My President...

Lol
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:53am PT
Let us not forget his abuses and public displays...


And now the man has gone beyond becoming a national disgrace. The infection of racism has been exacerbated by one person's quest to be right at all costs.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 08:53am PT
Denazification directive 30.

In Germany, we forced them to remove all monuments to the nazis, and made it a crime to have a swatzika or give a nazi salute or erect a statue glorifying their racist history or name a street after one of the racist oppressors. There are no statues glorifying "the boys who wore the swastikas."

But here in the US, we throw the Nazis a parade, and when the racists murder someone, they're only half to blame.

I would say "you be you," but I think that the sad truth is "we be we." Hello world, we're America.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:04am PT
I still support My President

of course you do, honey
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:15am PT
N. Korea never was going to "sent" missiles to Guam.
Trump has nothing to do with it.

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:18am PT
That absurd display of a mob carrying torches was rife with racist connotations
Not just connotations - they were chanting "Jews will not replace us."

That Friday night group was the group of racists that Trump identified as containing "some very fine people," as opposed to what he characterized as very, very violent alt-left folks who were half to blame for an anti-racist being murdered on Saturday.

It is what it is. It's not like we haven't known it all along. America is the same America today that it was yesterday. This guy is our leader.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:25am PT
No trolling Fritz.

I've been here for a long time.

I love this site for climbing content and good human stoke. You PC hystericals are ruining this place.

What you loons say here is really outrageous and so short-sighted. Like the rest of the drooling masses that are perpetually plugged in.

You're narratives about people in other parts of the country who you perceive to be 'against' you are really bigoted. But you are clueless

You've allowed yourselves to be trolled by a TINY pocket of white-trash losers(with a dead message) and a heavy sucker punch of media brainwashing.

It's a Civil War...haha. You complete them

BTW Cali has the second most hate groups in the country per SLP group.

Time to man the f**k up and fight for what you spew about.

Go get'em girls
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:26am PT
I still support My President...

That anyone would consider him 'their' president at this point defies belief. He's at base a traitorous and juvenile sociopath even without the racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Bushman:
I was recently in Canada and spoke with an older climber/family man in Banff about the problems with our falsely fearless leader (such as he is) when the stirrings of the current North Korea pissing match first began between Trump and Kim Jong Un.

The gentleman voiced his overall opinion of his countrymen, telling me that they believed Trump was mentally ill, that he was probably going to start World War III, and that Germany, France, and Canada we're now leading the world on the progressive front.
Bushman, it's good that you do not use Canadian Mainstream Media as a source of information on how Canadians think and feel. Canadian MSM is overwhelmingly controlled by liberals and presents a distorted picture.

Talking to real Canadians is good, but you should not limit yourself just to one conversation.
Talk to more people and you may discover other opinions.

I know quite a few Canadians who regardless of all the shenanigans of the current US president still believe that he is a better choice than Obama or Hillary.
Support for Trump is especially strong in AB, MB and SK that are culturally closer to Western US states than to BC, ON, QC or Atlantic Provinces.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:29am PT
At a stunning press conference Tuesday, President Donald Trump essentially took back his delayed, tepid denunciation of neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan members and other white nationalists who incited Saturday’s violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. He even described some as “very fine people.”

yes indeed, some of those Jew hating Klu Klux Klanners are "very fine people"

but yes, you should always support your President, no matter what he says or does

because one thing you should never ever do is admit that you were wrong
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:37am PT
As for anti-Korean rhetoric, we need to keep Military-Industrial complex in mind.
According to a pattern that was identified by Dwight Eisenhower, each American president need to start or significantly escalate at least one war to make Military-Industrial complex happy.

If you believe that North Korea is not a good target, what other options of starting a war can you suggest to Trump?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 09:48am PT
Dingus, you have read the transcripts

there were two distinct groups of people at that KKK rally, them and the protestors of them

when President Trump said that there were "very fine people" on "both sides",
who, which particular individuals do you think he was referring to among the white nationalists, KKK, people as being very fine?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:04am PT
He says a lot of things.... not so nuanced as a dyed in the wool politician who can speak out of both sides of mouth.

So what the difference between.... the lefty thugs who wear masks on their faces and the KKK who will get busted if they put on the hoods?


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:23am PT
At Carrier and beyond, workers are quitting manufacturing jobs in droves

At a time when the Trump administration argues that creating manufacturing jobs is a critical national goal, many factory workers are making a surprising decision: They’re giving up their jobs.

WaPost
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:37am PT
So what the difference between.... the lefty thugs who wear masks on their faces and the KKK who will get busted if they put on the hoods?

The underlying philosophy of each group is profoundly different:

The KKK believes in lynching uppity blacks, and keeping all minorities in a position of submission to whites, apparently like you do. Some also subscribe to the strategy of rounding up jews and minorities and putting them in ovens.

Those on the other side specifically oppose those ideas. They do not subscribe to subjugating the Klan or the Nazis, simply stopping their agenda.

Do you really not understand this? I think you're a simple troll.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:38am PT
There were people in that rally - and I looked the night before. If you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I'm sure in that group there were some bad ones.

He's talking about the rally the night before - Friday night - when the fine people marched carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil."

But what Trump saw in that rally on Friday night was the very fine people quietly protesting. And he's not even sure that he saw the bad people - he's sure a few of them were there, but when he looked, what he saw was some fine people quietly protesting the removal of the statue.

At one point not so long ago, Trump said that he didn't know about David Duke (after having spoke about him on air years earlier). Maybe Trump didn't see him when he looked, either. IMHO, that says a lot about how Trump does or doesn't see things.

For me, I'm not one of the one in four Americans who believe what Trump says any more.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:44am PT
He says a lot of things.... not so nuanced as a dyed in the wool politician who can speak out of both sides of mouth.

So what the difference between.... the lefty thugs who wear masks on their faces and the KKK who will get busted if they put on the hoods?

The president's remarks are indefensible.

Why are you lowering yourself by defending this as#@&%e?

What is there to defend after he talked about the "very fine" folks marching to defend the statue?


You're better than this.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:52am PT
Guyman, what is your position on how traitors to the USA should be viewed and treated?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:52am PT
Agreed DMT. We don't know much of anything really. I didn't see it with my own eyes, and neither did he. But the way it keeps seeming to me is that Trump just keeps defending the racist as#@&%es regardless.

The good people who have an honest historical non-racist beef with removing the statue? I expect they ran away from that rally as fast as they could. IMHO, they're not the problem.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:57am PT
He said what he said and I can't attest to who was marching, when or where.

But there are non-racists who object to the removal of confederate monuments. Objection to their removal does not a racist make.

DMT


There are such people. Misguided or ignorant, perhaps. But that was a "unite the right rally," a call for extremists and racists to show up.

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 11:06am PT
I think we make a mistake when we lump together intentional racism and unintentional racism. I think there's a lot more involuntary manslaughter racism than there is murder racism. I don't think that we need to characterize unintentional, unconscious "involuntary manslaughter racists" as "murder racists".

But still, 150 years after slavery ended, median white wealth is still 13 times median black wealth. And there are a lot of people who don't like that, and they have belief processes of their own.

How do we get people to change what they believe? IMHO, that's usually not really about what we say/think it's about.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2017 - 11:10am PT
But there are non-racists who object to the removal of confederate monuments. Objection to their removal does not a racist make.

Interesting assertion. On what basis would such people object? On the basis that the confederacy is part of history?

I can see that argument. However, my counter-argument is that the erection of a monument is rarely done to commemorate a person or historical fact, but to honor and celebrate it....which goes far beyond simply noting that something happened.

Are we erecting statues to Osama bin Laden? Why not, if historical importance is the reason for erecting monuments?

Spending public money, to place monuments on public land, is a statement of endorsement by gov't. It is the reason that religious symbols are generally not allowed, because it speaks to endorsement.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 11:21am PT
If a person shows up at a rally wearing riot gear including weapons, I think that person should be detained. That person is not there to support the rights of free speech. That went down in Sacramento and it also went down in Charlottesville, or so I am told.

I wholeheartedly agree. I detest the anarchist baseball bat wielding types.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
After disbanding his manufacturing group today, Trump tweeted:

"Rather than putting pressure on the businesspeople of the Manufacturing Council & Strategy & Policy Forum, I am ending both. Thank you all!"

What a sweet stand up guy!

That must have been what he meant to say when Ken Frazier left, and Trump tweeted:

"Now that Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's manufacturing Council, he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!"

When Trump looks back on that, do you think he sees what he said, or does he just see himself as a fine person who is graciously sparing Frazier from the pressure of his bullying?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
If a person shows up at a rally wearing riot gear including weapons, I think that person should be detained. That person is not there to support the rights of free speech. That went down in Sacramento and it also went down in Charlottesville, or so I am told.

I'm with you on the weapons part.

But since we have gotten to the point where so much violence is allowed I can't blame people for wanting to at least wear a helmet.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
we all saw the videos of helmeted and armed white nationalists

Sacramento? I don't recall seing armed protesters, anyone help me out?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
The CEOs en masse disbanded the groups, not trump.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
So what the difference between.... the lefty thugs who wear masks on their faces and the KKK who will get busted if they put on the hoods? guyman

Those were the same lefty thugs that helped win the last war against the Nazis and KKK, the civilized Americans that fight against evil when it becomes a threat on their lives.
The Trump admin (just like Hitler or Kim jung um) is going after these people, that's why they wore masks.

Patriots wouldn't call them thugs, they are fighting against evil right wing brutal sick f*#k real "thugs", chanting "hail trump", "blood and soil", "f*#k you faggots"

Someone has to fight them, only the left will fight against these right wing Nazis, KKK, Communists, Fascists, evil dictators,
why?, because the right wingers will always fall in line with their oppressive leaders and fight for evil.

We can't let them do what they want, it hurts others, they have shown us what they will do if you give them the power they crave.
WBraun

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
You stoopid Americans gave violent nazis the right to demonstrate and then stoopid left wingnuts came and scream at already pissed off Nazi nutcases that had weapons,

What do ya expect.

Yer all idiots and stoopid Americans .....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
No
I saw the video
and heard the commentary
c wilmot

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
We have a police force to deal with social unrest. We dont need armed masked groups with nefarious intentions patrolling our streets to ostensibly protect us.

both fringe sides-right and left- seem eager to cast our nation into unecessary chaos

And both sides have a totalitarian bent



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
Hate speech, racial slurs and homophobic chants are Not Protected under the first amendment....
so you Nazi apologists can suck on it

What the right wing freaks did was not protected free speech, they were breaking the law.


Some racist, homophobic chants in Charlottesville may not be protected under 1st Amendment

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/15/16144058/charlottesville-free-speech

There is no question that Americans have the right to express racist, offensive, unpopular views under the First Amendment — it's a right that has been repeatedly upheld by the US Supreme Court. But the right-wing demonstrators in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend may have gone too far when they began chanting racial and homophobic slurs to specific people.

It’s a gray area of constitutional law, but several experts said this week that the white supremacists may have crossed a line into what is known as unprotected speech.

In 1942, the Supreme Court ruled that "fighting words" are not protected under the First Amendment. The Court defines fighting words as "those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace."
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
ah yes, the grand old "both sides are the same, they both do it"

commonly called a False Equivalence

Charleston - which "side" decided to hold their event, their rally"

which side chose to show up in helmets, torches, and firearms?

yes but, because some on the other "side" reacted to what they started with their in your face racism...not by showing up with guns and hate....not by driving a car into a crowd and killing someone, as had been learned how to do from watching a video

therefore, both sides do it...they are "all the same" - anyone else tired of that BS
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 16, 2017 - 02:03pm PT
anyone else tired of that BS

Yes, it is dishonest.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
*According to an executive who was involved in today's decision to disband President Trump's top outside business board, the CEOs decided they "couldn't justify the capital they were spending, hoping that this guy can function in a somewhat mature and statesmanlike way."


The executive told me: "Everyone knew, going in, that this was the way the guy was. They were just hoping that if he got the right people and decisionmaking processes in place, he could grow into the job. He proved he has no capability to do that." Yesterday's presser about Charlottesville was the last straw.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
Here is how this delusional both sides are the same works...

Gandhi was exactly the same as Hitler, just the other side of the coin!
Jesus and Satan, the same, right??

America was really fighting itself when we entered WWII, fighting Hitler is exactly the same as being Hitler!!!!

Trump = Jesus, just the other side of the coin, both extremists wanting totalitarian rule over other people's lives...., right??

It's total Bullshit that gives the Right wingers a false belief that they are OK because the other side is just the same
It's a way to justify their vile beliefs and opinions, it's psychological cover for being a right wing hater.

They just can't deal with the idea that they are on the same side as Hitler, Stalin, Putin, and every other evil. So they demonize the other side with lies to bring them down to their level.

If there is evil, there is a side that has to fight evil, that side is called the left/liberals/progressives/moderates/intellectuals (not leftists)
since the rightwing instigate evil, the left are the only ones left to stop evil.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 02:33pm PT
he white supremacists did not blink at violently plowing right through clergy, all of us dressed in full clerical garb. White supremacy is violence. I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy. My strong stance is that the weapon is and was white supremacy, and the white supremacists intentionally brought weapons to instigate violence.

a priest at the hate rally
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 16, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbj9fasGbxk
Norton

Social climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
Justin Moore, the grand dragon for the Loyal White Knights of the KKK in Pelham, said he’s “sorta glad” a car rammed into a crowd of counterprotesters, killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer. James Alex Fields Jr., 20, has been charged with second-degree murder in the attack.

“I’m sorta glad that them people got hit and I’m glad that girl died,” Moore told CBS affiliate WBTV on Tuesday.

But both sides are equal, they both do it, those anti KKK protestors were glad the girl got killed too

dirtbag

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
^^^fine people^^^
WBraun

climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
Politards are evil.

You stoopid politards cause all the problems.

The whole planet was peaceful at one time and then you nutcase politards came and turned everything to sh!t ....
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 16, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
Dear folks at ST. I kept hearing the news folks talk about Odinists at the Charlotteville Riots as another of the Racist groups participating, but I confess to knowing little about Odinist Racists.

I finally got around to some research on the subjet:

In Nov. 2015, three Virginia men were charged with plotting to attack and bomb black churches and Jewish synagogues, reportedly with the goal of triggering a “race war” in the United States. Suspects Ronald Chaney and Robert Doyle, who FBI officials say were also plotting to kill a local jewelry dealer and rob an armored car, were outspoken white supremacists, bound by a common desire enact violence against Jews and African Americans.
But documents show that the two men, and possibly accomplice Charles Halderman, also share something else: A common, peculiar faith.

“Doyle and Chaney, and others known and unknown to the FBI, ascribe to a white supremacy extremist version of the Asatru faith,” read the FBI’s report.

Traditionally, most American white supremacists claim to be Christians — hence the Ku Klux Klan, which uses a burning cross as its symbol, and the Phineas Priesthood, a group that preaches an anti-immigrant message and whose members attempted to burn down the Mexican Consulate in 2015 in the name of Jesus.

But like Doyle and Chaney, a number of white supremacists are abandoning Christianity for a very different religion: Odinism, sometimes called Asatru, Vanuatrú, or Dísitrú. The faith, which has several different strains, is a modern expression of an ancient, polytheistic Nordic belief system that reveres a slew of gods such as Thor. Most of its U.S. adherents, many of whom self-identify as “heathens”, are nonviolent and inclusive, more concerned with preaching virtues than calling for a race war. Norse paganism, once the religion of Vikings, is currently undergoing a revival among young residents of Iceland, where it is recognized as a state religion.

Yet an unsettlingly virulent strain of Odinism has coalesced in the United States over the past few decades, attracting white supremacists who see it as more purely “white” than Christianity.

Mark Potok, a senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center, explained that many join the fledging faith as a way of criticizing Christianity.
“From white supremacist point of view, they embrace these neopagan religions because they see them as antithetical to Christianity and Judaism,” he told ThinkProgress. “They say, ‘What did the Jews and Christians do? They made these religions about turning the other cheek and caring for the poor.’ They see Christianity as a feminized, weak, self-destructive theology created by Jews and forced on white people who were by nature supposedly very different.”

Indeed, as CNN reported in 2014, similar ideas were spouted by Frazier Glenn Cross, the man who shot and killed three people outside Jewish organizations that year. Although Cross was once a leader of the KKK, his online manifesto professed a firm belief in Odinism, which he reportedly converted to before his rampage.

Odinism! This was the religion for a strong heroic people, the Germanic people, from whose loins we all descended, be we German, English, Scott, Irish, or Scandinavian, in whole or in part,” Cross wrote. “Odin! Odin! Odin! Was the battle cry of our ancestors; their light eyes ablaze with the glare of the predator, as they swept over and conquered the decadent multi-racial Roman Empire. And Valhalla does not accept Negroes. There’s a sign over the pearly gates there which reads, ‘Whites only.’”

Like many right-wing Odinists, Cross explained that his opposition to Christianity is rooted in the idea that it was a “trick” invented by Jews to “enslave” the white masses.

“Christianity is the second biggest trick the Jews ever played on us. The biggest was legalized abortion!” he wrote.

Other racists enjoy Odinism’s ties to Nazi Germany, where it was reportedly inculcated into the Third Reich’s cultural theology of white supremacy.

https://thinkprogress.org/the-new-religion-of-choice-for-white-supremacists-8af2a69a3440/
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Aug 16, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
Great. That's all we need, another gang of religious f*ckwads using some imaginary BS to justify their psychosis. Gah! I believe in X, therefore it's okay for me to have a half-dozen teenage girls for my sister-wives, or attack Jews/blacks/whatever. Gah.

BAd
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 16, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Odin?! But Odin doesn't like Nazi's. Haven't you ever seen Kung Fury??

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
Craig, that was interesting post. i think you may be scratching at the surface. BUT, Jesus did say that Gods government could not be materialized on Earth! So, with that in mind, there isn't ever gunna be a human that justifiably rules other humans! PERIOD. i scoff at every human that requires revenge. Especially those who call for a death sentence! Materially or even verbally. "Murder" roots from the heart. If you want change, DRAW A TOPO!

This morning the "sisters" took down the 6 ft. rock in Hollywood Los Angels from fear they were next to be attacted. The plaque said inn rememberance to the fallen lives that did fight for the confederate army. The rock stood over two people that fought in that fight. And one of them was even "Black". Did you know that there were black people that fought for the confederacy?

So how should "we" confront our enemies? Remember after Jesus fasted for 40 days, He was tempted by Satan, and then again when the romans came to arrest Him and Peter cut the dude? Jesus didn't want to crush His enemies voice, instead He listened, then exclaimed Gods word, and allowed THEM to make a choice
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 16, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
Craig Fry:
Someone has to fight them, only the left will fight against these right wing Nazis, KKK, Communists, Fascists, evil dictators ...
Craig Fry, are you OK today?

I am concerned about your health because of your claim that "only the left will fight against ... communists".
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
Dago Viking slices Honky Viking in front of The Warlber's GF (masquerading as Janet Leigh).

"if I can't have your love, I'll take your hate", bitch.

At least he died with his sword in his hand.


Oh Odin, don't you weep, don't you mourn

Fay_rogues' army gonna get drownded




[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
A CAGED ANINAL! (or two)

perfect

[our] president and his bitch



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
"only the left will fight against ... communists".

Well you got me there, the Fascists (Nazis) hated the communists as much as the liberals,
they declared war on each other just like the rest of the right wing extremist ideologies
extremist Islamic and extremist Christians are very similar in basic ideology, but will wage war against each other until they become non-extremists

Liberals fight for freedom/liberty, which is the definition of liberalism
we fight against the oppression of all humans, which then by definition is against taking away rights and freedoms we all enjoy from any group of minorities.

These Nazis and KKK/right wing extremists want to take away the rights of others, that is their goal.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
Dago Viking slices Honky Viking in front of The Warlber's GF (masquerading as Janet Leigh).

"if I can't have your love, I'll take your hate", bitch.

HaHaHaaaaaaa!

But why you reckon he did hesitate?

i bet a cheeseburger thee politards don't know!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
^They were bros, bro.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 16, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
WTF Craig😜

I've climbed with Tom tomorrow. He barely knows anything about building houses, and it seems he knows shite bout free speech!?

To me it seems like trump is attacking the physicalist, NOT the mere talkers.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2017 - 10:11pm PT
Bear with me here... it provides a perspective on current USA politics and actions, and perhaps gives a glimpse to our future.

I have recently become more aware of the extent of my ignorance of 20th century history and how it deeply affects our modern society. Over the last few weeks, I became familiar with a Netflix series related to the Colombian drug wars, about JJ Velasquez Vasquez in the aftermath of Pablo Escobar's capture:
https://www.netflix.com/search?q=JJ&jbv=80141259&jbp=0&jbr=0

Interested to tease out fact from dramatization, I searched a bit and found this documentary about the main character. Creepy dude (well, a dude without the impediment of compassion), and appalling how he can be celebrated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3SyM6XpW0A

Some Youtube comments cast light on the circumstances in Colombia which make it easier to understand the perspective of potential fans- how desensitized people are to violence, how people do whatever they have to for survival because there is no social safety net or welfare system (other than what was provided by Escobar- which can be seen as a humanitarian intention or a calculated effort to buy his personal safety and invest in recruiting the army of loyal street soldiers he needed), etc... and it got me to digging more on the circumstances in Colombia which led to me to the history preceding La Violencia and the rise of the Cartels and the drug wars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Violencia

A pivotal action appears to be the assassination of Jorge Eliécer Gaitán in 1948 which triggered decades of political chaos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Eli%C3%A9cer_Gait%C3%A1n

The circumstances appear to be contested and murky, but a variant with strong claims makes it a CIA action. If you have Google Chrome browser, you can use the "translate" function to read this page:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article124740.html


In short, this is a version of history I have gleaned, and I welcome any feedback from folks who are more informed:
1. Colombia had an economy dominated by agricultural/coffee production and export, which led to the majority of workers living in extreme poverty (dirt floors, no running water, etc.) while the wealth production was quite aggregated and the whole system was very good for USA.
2. World War II wrapped up, beginning the Cold War between USA and USSR (a fight between the two most powerful organizations standing after the war, ostensibly supporting capitalist vs communist ideologies, but really about the two biggest gangs with loose coupling to their ideological underpinnings).
3. Jorge Eliécer Gaitán rose in popularity in Colombia because he had his finger on the pulse of the terrible and growing divide between rich and poor, he spoke eloquently about it, and he had a plan to deal with it.

Note the link from the "voltairenet" website is history with a Cuban spin, and it indicates that Gaitán was supported by liberal and conservative folks alike... but other sources seem to place Gaitán as more of a pure socialist/populist guy that would be closer to Bernie Sanders in our time. But, he rose to power and prominence as a legal advocate for worker's rights and curbing the abuse of corporate power in the wake of Colombian military shooting its own citizens to defend United Fruit Company (USA economic empire) that didn't like the worker protests. More info, search "Santa Marta Massacre" or "Banana Massacre". So that's how Gaitán rose to prominence. The book "Gaitán of Colombia: A Political Biography" (page 111) seems to indicate that a conservative strategy to divide the liberals was to actually donate money to Gaitán as that revelation may have compromised his moral high ground or sowed divisions among the liberal power centers to fragment that base and ensure a conservative winning the next election even though the conservative viewpoints were less overall popular.

All of this perhaps reinforces the point that liberal and conservative labels and divisions are a powerful distraction from the more fundamental issue of wealth distribution and policies that affect it. People's fear of losing their hard-earned wealth, no matter large or small, is a powerful weapon that convinces many people to accept a system that robs the vast majority of people, extracting their hard labor without giving them rewards commensurate with their efforts. Manipulating this fear, with the divisions of "liberal" and "conservative" and using "socialist" as a bad word is a means for those with power to aggregate it and hold it over time, even in a country with democratic elections where it is not in the interest of the majority of people to have this strong imbalance in wealth distribution.

The issue of reaping what you sow and personal responsibility/accountability is an ideal that can coexist with a more equitable model for wealth distribution in a society, but without having the societal education or attention-span or depth of discussion to tease this out, we remain enslaved.

Anyways, back to Gaitán... he was popular, and his ideas were not consistent with the widespread exploitation of Colombians to produce cheaper coffee or fruit for USA while enriching an elite class. This seems like a bigger motive for CIA to get rid of him, rather than the competing argument that it was a USSR plot to break up the Inter-American conference promoting trade in the Americas. That event would be a perfect backdrop to blame the Russians for USA actions. The Banana Massacre is already a historical precedent for the USA to intervene violently in Colombia against the best interests of the majority population to ensure the beneficial outcome for the USA corporate interest. And what better way to repeat the pattern than against the guy who threatened the status quo and who rose to power by casting light and seeking justice for the past violence?

I don't have the resources or attention span to dig further, but it seems that as many things change in the world, the desperate struggle for power and control, and the underhanded means of obtaining it, remain constant.


So why do I post this on the USA policy issues thread? It's not just USA bashing guilt-accepting liberal mish-mash. It is an opening for discussion of:
 liberal vs conservative labels masking the more fundamental issue of wealth distribution.
 A less well known perspective and historical context in which our present societal battles of rich vs poor have already been played out.
 A chance to discuss the distinctions of socialism and the fears related to that, which divide the powerful common interest into fragmented "liberal" groups (think Hillary and Bernie) and to a lesser extent "conservative" parties, all of which enables the wealthiest folks to continue having their political interests served... Read the overview of the
Gaitánista Program to note that this "socialist" platform is more nuanced and pragmatic than taking from rich and giving to poor. It is the fear of conservatives, informed by an overly simplistic analysis/understanding of wealth distribution in a society, that is milked to turn conservatives against liberals and prevent the common pursuit of shared interest among the population. Note that "distribution" as used here refers to the statistical measure of where wealth is owned across a society, not the act of taking the hard-earned wealth of richer people and giving or "distributing" it to the poor. Reallocation/redistribution from rich to poor may be part of a model to have a more equitable end result of wealth distribution in a society (end result that honors the dignity and efforts and ingenuity of citizens while also preventing gross imbalances that arise from the aggregation of power in uncontrolled feedback loops because of policies that favor corporate interests vs societal interests), but it should be considered in the context of where the wealth is created and who gets to keep in in the end, apart from which hands it changes between to reach a reasonable/equitable end state. In other words, just looking at a last step where money is "stolen from the rich" in the form of taxes reallocated to the poor, is just looking at a fragment of the big picture in which our socio-economic-political framework allows the rich to steal and aggregate the wealth in the first place.

 Perhaps this is a cautionary tale of a way in which our society can descend into decades of violence, the cheapening of human life and commonplace occurrence of murder, in the wake of huge political issues and growing inequities between rich and poor. It seems that things in USA are so different because our poor class is so much more comfortable than the poor class in Colombia... and USA is in the driver seat in terms of being the powerful exploiter while Colombia is the subservient vassal. But think ahead a decade or two when there are no more jobs because of automation. Who can afford running water then? Who can afford to have other than a dirt floor then? What stops people from being murdered for $1 or a potato if it fends of starvation in their family? And perhaps China will still be humming along in growth mode because they are trying to balance between personal profit motive associated with capitalism, and societal well-being enforced through strong state control (while still struggling with the ever-fickle human quest for power and the negative side-effects thereof).

Now ask yourself, what is the Democratic Party doing to address these things? What is the Republican Party doing to address these things? Who is closer to dealing with the problem, and who is more receptive to solutions that will address it? There is corruption and human frailty in every organization- even religions with the highest ideals. But even though we can't eradicate corruption and human frailty, we should at least aim for systems and organizations that give us all a fighting a chance to maintain the sanctity and dignity of life.

It is true that protecting personal property and tapping into our natural greed and ambition is an effective part of capitalism for productivity in our society. It is a critical element of making a society work because we can't rely on widespread altruistic attitudes. People just don't work that way (literally and figuratively). But we also have to address the real need to have a system that more equitably rewards the efforts of citizens and provides all citizens access to the avenues of wealth creation in our society and protection from personal economic calamities. In my view, this system should include an educational baseline that gives similar opportunities to all children, and a healthcare system that doesn't destroy folks who are struggling and working hard to climb upward in the socieconomic strata.


School Voucher systems and delegation to states represents the Balkanization of our educational standards, the first step in destroying them rather than strengthening them. Without equitable access to education across our nation, we amplify the disparities that exist between rich and poor.

Without a healthcare system that protects all citizens, everyone lives in fear of losing their life's accumulated wealth and hard work to pay for a health issue, and it undermines the individual motive to work hard and take risks for the sake of creating wealth. Even if people are motivated to work harder out of fear to pay for their health, there is still a bigger burden on poor people who stop investing in themselves or their children because of immediate financial needs.

... damnit can keep going forever it seems, but I gotta get back to work.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 17, 2017 - 02:55am PT
But why you reckon he did hesitate?

Because Einar finally recognised Eric as his brother. (I watched this flick last week.)

i bet a cheeseburger thee politards don't know!!

Hold the ketchup on my cheeseburger, extra Dijon mustard please.

But is that thee or three politards? If the latter, zBrown and I make two, waiting for the third.

And indeed, if it is three, does that mean we have to split the cheeseburger (singular) in thirds?
Degaine

climber
Aug 17, 2017 - 03:33am PT
In the spirit of the thread title, here is an important national policy issue that receives little attention but demonstrates, yet once again, the inexperience and incompetence of the Trump administration:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/department-of-energy-risks-michael-lewis
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 17, 2017 - 05:31am PT
Vlad Licker ( Trump )... Special orders don't upset us... Hold your pickle and your lettuce... Make me three.. Please... .. rj
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 17, 2017 - 06:31am PT
Wow ok three In n Outs comin up😋
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2017 - 10:48am PT
In the spirit of the thread title, here is an important national policy issue that receives little attention but demonstrates, yet once again, the inexperience and incompetence of the Trump administration:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/department-of-energy-risks-michael-lewis

Thanks for sharing that Degaine. It's a long article but the seriousness of the issues just keeps growing as it goes on. Quite horrifying without exaggeration, and I hope there are a lot of unsung heroes right now fighting to do their jobs and protect us from these myriad issues in spite of how the present administration has engaged them (or not).
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 17, 2017 - 11:07am PT

Nutagin.

Excellent digging and reasoning. TFPU!
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 17, 2017 - 11:23am PT
When the US and our allies defeated the Nazis, we didn't allow them to construct any monuments to "the boys who wore the swastikas."

But here in the US, we did things differently, and we allowed a certain segment of our society to become attached to their public displays of our history of racism.

And now it's hard for us to go back and do it right the first time. 150 years later, median white wealth is 13 times median black wealth, and we have a culture of worship for "the boys who wore the swastikas," and "the boys who wore the blue."

And with Trump as our fake leader, it's just getting worse.

"You can't change history, but you can learn from it," he said.

Denazification directive 30. We haven't learned from it.
c wilmot

climber
Aug 17, 2017 - 11:31am PT
"the boys who wore the blue"

That would be the union soldiers. The confederates wore gray


how quick history is forgotten
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.

Mark Twain
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
Timeline of confederate monument installations...

Norton

Social climber
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
well, today the author of Trump's "Art of the Deal" , who knows him very well

said that he predicts that he will resign the Presidency as earlier as this year yet

declare victory, and go back to choosing which toilet needs more gold plating
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
I often wonder if Trump remembers/realizes that his favorite daughter, her husband, and their 3 kids are all orthodox jewish. With the abundant antisemitism at Charlottesville, how the heck do you compartmentalize that? Trump seems amazing at compartmentalization, but that would seem to be above and beyond.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2017 - 03:27pm PT
Rather than just assuming pure idiocy, I am attributing some of the Trump Charlotte/confederacy circus to a jaded calculation of shifting people's attention and a profound lack of concern for the responsibilities of his office:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-infrastructure-idUSKCN1AV1ZI

Trump doesn't give a crap if people are outraged at him, maybe even enjoys it, and in the mean time he doesn't have to justify the stripping away of environmental protections or even basic forward-looking safety issues with the increasing rate of flooding from climate change.

From the article:
Rafael Lemaitre, former director of public affairs at FEMA who worked on the Obama-era order, said Trump is undoing "the most significant action taken in a generation" to safeguard U.S. infrastructure.

"Eliminating this requirement is self-defeating; we can either build smarter now, or put taxpayers on the hook to pay exponentially more when it floods. And it will," he said.

Basically, it's a boondoggle for short term gains to line the pockets of developers and to enable resource exploitation industries to get as many projects started as possible and grandfathered in with whatever environmental damage accepted, before a change of administration. The Vanity Fair article provides a penetrating counterpoint to evaluate what things are actually getting done by this administration and what things are not.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 17, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
The most pressing national policy issue is still the competency of our narcissistic, bigoted president. Our country is in grave danger as long as he is at the helm.

Today, Republican senator Bob Corker questioned his competency:



We’re at a point where there needs to be radical changes at the White House — it has to happen. He [President Trump] recently has not demonstrated that he understands the character of our nation — what has made it great and what it is today. He’s got to demonstrate the characteristics of a president who understands that. Without those things happening, our nation is going to go through great peril. . .

We should hope that he aspires, that he does some self reflection, and that he does what is necessary to demonstrate stability, to demonstrate competence and demonstrate he understands the character of our nation and works daily to bring out the best from the people of our nation. Helping to inspire divisions because it generates support from your base is not a formula for causing our nation to advance and to overcome the many issues that we have to deal with right now.


Ok, that's nice. Now what are you going to do about it?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
Happy to see NPR is paying attention:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/16/543712263/trump-rolls-back-obama-era-flood-standards-for-infrastructure-projects
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 17, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
When I turned the gas on my stove yesterday, it was sunny, and flames lept from the burners. But today, it's cloudy, so who knows? End of that line of reasoning :-)

I agree though DMT, it is a work in progress. Part of the progress IMHO is affecting the notion that these are just legitimate historical/cultural monuments. Kind of I guess, they are, in the way that Nazi statues would be historical/cultural monuments if we had allowed them. But that we didn't allow them, maybe not a bad thing. I'm not sure that the historical/cultural admirers of the statues would be cultural/historical admirers of Nazi monuments, if we had allowed them. Maybe they would be.

Mostly though I think it's about other things. Identity? Who I associate with and identify with? What they say and what they stand for and what they support? You were rude to me once, so I'm never going to agree with you again?

I've got my own struggles and failures in that department. It's hard to avoid. But maybe if we can disassociate ourselves from those kinds of reasons that we tell ourselves we believe things (like IMHO that these are just morally valid historical/cultural monuments, instead of that people like me are all upset about their removal?) we'll have a better shot at believing the same things? I don't know, seems like a tough job.

Sorry, confused blue and gray. I'm colorblind! Hope that doesn't prevent you from seeing.

Best y'all!
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 17, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
That would be the union soldiers. The confederates wore gray

Good catch C Wilmot, but I believe we know what he meant.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 17, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
I wasn't going to post this but what the heck. Let's have some fun.

Oh, a wife in the middle of an acrimonious divorce will say anything.

From Vanity Fair, September 1 1990

https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2015/07/donald-ivana-trump-divorce-prenup-marie-brenner

Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed.

Is Ivana trying to convince her friends and lawyer that Trump is a crypto-Nazi? Trump is no reader or history buff. Perhaps his possession of Hitler’s speeches merely indicates an interest in Hitler’s genius at propaganda. The Führer often described his defeats at Stalingrad and in North Africa as great victories. Trump continues to endow his diminishing world with significance as well. “There’s nobody that has the cash flow that I have,” he told The Wall Street Journal long after he knew better. “I want to be king of cash.”


Ivana began to tell her friends that she was worried about Donald’s state of mind.

She had been completely humiliated by Donald through his public association with Marla Maples. “How can you say you love us? You don’t love us! You don’t even love yourself. You just love your money,” twelve-year-old Donald junior told his father, according to friends of Ivana’s. “What kind of son have I created?” Trump’s mother, Mary, is said to have asked Ivana.


Oh the things a rebellious pre-adolescent will say to their dad. And we know Donny Jr was wrong, Trump does love himself.

Then again, this anecdote told to the writer of the article, Marie Brenner, was related by a friend of Ivana, who was probably in her camp. So did young Donny Jr say that?

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 17, 2017 - 07:18pm PT

Yup, there's plenty of 'em.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
drunpf already has hispanophilia, sudainement
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
Wow, that Vanity Fair story that Degaine posted blew me away. And scares the hell out of me. A must read:https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07/department-of-energy-risks-michael-lewis
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
I love the attempts to paint a garden variety narcissistic self-promting clown as some nefarious "Hitler".

Delicious tears, with a hint of bitterness to temper the salt of desperation.

Tastes like... covefe.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
I agree though DMT, it is a work in progress. Part of the progress IMHO is affecting the notion that these are just legitimate historical/cultural monuments. Kind of I guess, they are, in the way that Nazi statues would be historical/cultural monuments if we had allowed them. But that we didn't allow them, maybe not a bad thing. I'm not sure that the historical/cultural admirers of the statues would be cultural/historical admirers of Nazi monuments, if we had allowed them. Maybe they would be.

It may be a step too far to think that the German people wanted statues of Hitler, et al, after WWII. After all, this is the country that makes it illegal to have nazi memorabilia, or to snap a nazi salute.

I've just never heard that.

dirtbag

climber
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:58pm PT
I love the attempts to paint a garden variety narcissistic self-promting clown as some nefarious "Hitler".

Garden valley narcissists are fine when they are actually tending to their gardens, picking tomatoes and stirring the compost.

When they are in charge of a bully pulpit, a vast intelligence network, and the largest, most powerful military in human history, then it is not a trivial matter.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 17, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
Garden valley narcissists are fine when they are actually tending to their gardens


You old crusty dummies! Yuuuge L0L
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Aug 17, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
Shocking!
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 17, 2017 - 09:38pm PT

This magnificent Soviet monument on Gellért-hegy, overlooking Budapest, was designed to honor the Soviet forces freeing Hungary from its Nazi occupiers. It faces east and is meant as a welcoming gesture to the Soviets.

After the collapse of the Soviet empire there was much talk of tearing the monument down. Cooler heads prevailed, however, and, instead, a different interpretation was given the towering central figure: "Goodbye, Soviets!"


When driving through Hungary after the Soviet collapse I recall passing a roadside version of the Pietà: A Madonna holding the body of a fallen German soldier.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 17, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Accept history.

Do not deny it.

Right it.

Make life better.

To be in denial of the past is to perpetuate this madness.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 17, 2017 - 10:25pm PT
I do accept the past. In another venue, as the President is about to find out, that is called "evidence".

"In all, 10 major U.S. Army bases honor Confederate heroes, including some that are named after the Georgia chief of the Ku Klux Klan, the head of the Confederate Army, and the commander who led the attack that started the Civil War."

I don't understand the reverence for traitors to the United States? The argument that we've had these names for a long time as justification, makes no sense to me.

"It's historical!"---then I guess the next statue to go up should be Osama bin Laden? That your goal, F?
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 17, 2017 - 10:47pm PT
Ken M wants George Washington replaced with Bill Ayers and Al Sharpton statues. "When azzhats live"
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 17, 2017 - 10:55pm PT
I don't understand the reverence for traitors to the United States?

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 18, 2017 - 12:05am PT

Pretty insane! Thank you, Heyzeus.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2017 - 02:09am PT
I don't understand the reverence for traitors to the United States? The argument that we've had these names for a long time as justification, makes no sense to me.

I think the defenders are not reflective/introspective enough to ponder the symbolic meaning of confederate statues. It is (I hope) simply the cult of the underdog, like the loyal fans of a losing sports team, which is a strong force for helping people feel connected to something bigger than themselves while giving them a golden chance to publicly display their noble quality of loyalty. It is a satisfaction of the need for community without recognizing the negative side-effects of choosing that concept as the unifying point and object of loyalty.

Or is it really just about promoting white power?

I have to believe that is a small chunk who think that way, and I like to believe that if more time was spent for both sides to listen to the concerns of the other side, then a lot of the conflict and frustration could have been turned to understanding and empathy and probably resulted in peaceful removal of the confederate symbols and an opportunity to shift the south's target for loyalty from the superficial "team" spirit of the confederacy to something more substantial like pride in the reputation for being hospitable and well-mannered. Am I just fantasizing and making stuff up here? Maybe I stayed up too late.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 18, 2017 - 02:35am PT
NutAgain...your shet is word salad

It's long winded, weak and self serving as usual

The outspoken masses here are another version of....cultish hate-speakers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:03am PT
No need for word salad - impeaching the traitor is US national policy priority #1.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:13am PT
Hence hangry J.

Get that oldster a meal

Always angry.....always meaningless
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:55am PT
I may have been born in Cali, but I spent every summer in east Texas growing up, and my entire family hails from the south. So I've got a right to say this;

"Ya'll come on up to the porch fer some ice tea an' a peice of pecan pie," is so much more hospitable than, "Hey boy, what you doin' up here? Lets git a rope!"

Spent most of a day in the Civil Rights Museum in Birmingham, Alabama once while on vacation and strolled by the Baptist Church on 16th St. where the racist bombing took four little black girls lives in 1963, saw where they patched the wall where the bomb blew an 8x8' hole in the basement Sunday school there. It's an eye opener. White racist hate is some disgustingly sick sh#t, turns my gut thinking about it.

Lose the statues...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Robert E. Lee discouraged monuments. They ‘keep open the sores of war,’ he wrote.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:25am PT
Romney urges Trump to issue an apology for his Charlottesville remarks
The 2012 GOP presidential nominee and former governor of Massachusetts warned of “an unraveling of our national fabric” if the president doesn’t take “remedial action in the extreme.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:26am PT
3 fundraising giants cancel Mar-a-Lago galas

Signaling a direct blowback over President Trump’s comments on racial unrest, the defections of longtime customers expose a key business vulnerability at his Palm Beach club.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:27am PT
Trump’s use of Confederate statues as a wedge issue underscores Bannon’s influence
Trump has held the opposite position, endorsing South Carolina’s decision in 2015 to remove the Confederate flag from its statehouse after a mass shooting in Charleston.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:29am PT
The Republicans who want to legalize running over protesters
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:30am PT
Here is the official résumé of the person Trump put in charge of federal housing in New York
Lynne Patton, who will oversee one of the largest regions for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, is a longtime Trump family aide with no relevant experience.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:34am PT
National parks banned bottled water to discourage pollution. Trump just sided with the lobby for bottling companies.
The move came three weeks after the confirmation of David Bernhardt as deputy interior secretary. Bernhardt used to lobby for a company that distributes the Deer Park brand.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:05am PT
Sen. Bob Corker has strongly questioned Trump's stability, and competence to succeed as president. This guy is not one of the usual suspects and has been golfing with Trump. It is admirable to be loyal to someone, but blind loyalty is just plain crazy. I've got to give Sen. Corker a lot of credit for stepping up.

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/17/544230949/gop-senator-trump-lacking-stability-competence-to-succeed
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Condolences to all victims of terror, domestic and abroad. On a local level, I was born and raised in Walnut Creek (and Lafayette), one of the Barcelona victims is from Walnut Creek.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:15am PT
Looks like Bannon is going to get tossed under the bus.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:19am PT
^^^^^^True. But I still prefer to award them for good behavior, and kick them in the ass for bad. It's gotta start with someone.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:21am PT

Trump's former business partner has now been convicted and is awaiting sentencing, likely prison time.

He has stated under oath that he and Trump committed the Federal crime of laundering money by Trump selling some of his Florida condos at greatly inflated prices in order to hide, launder Russian money.

Trump's author of the book "The Art of the Deal", who knows Donald very well, has said that Trump will resign the Presidency as early as this year, rather than face impeachment.

HERE
http://addictinginfo.com/2017/08/17/former-business-partner-predicts-prison-for-trump-once-he-tells-authorities-what-he-knows/
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:25am PT
President Pence. Going to have to start getting used to that now I suppose.... sigh. It's going to be a long presidential term.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 18, 2017 - 10:59am PT
^^^ and it will feel like getting kicked in the PP as well.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 18, 2017 - 11:57am PT
Looks like Bannon is going to get tossed under the bus.

Nice to see that Kelly is taking charge.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 18, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
Here we go, activists:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/confederate-removal-fight-extends-to-kkk-birthplace-stone-mountain/ar-AAqgpgH?li=BBnb7Kz

It was inevitable given the current political climate.

It's too bad you guys consider even the lowest confederate dirtbag soldier to be a traitor. Many tens of thousands died in the war. So many traitors . . .

For me, Stone Mountain was defiled and destroyed when it was turned into a state park. I could not care less about the carving.
Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Aug 18, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
another Nazi scum bites the dust!

only Trump Pence Miller and Gorka to go

so many winnings, when will it end?!

how do you feel if you are black person in an evangelical church knowing that Pence, most powerful evangelical in the world, supports the Nazis?

I hope they leave in droves and realize that Christ had an amazing message for the world, and the lizards that took over the US, are lying, racist sacks of #hit.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
It's too bad you guys consider even the lowest confederate dirtbag soldier to be a traitor. Many tens of thousands died in the war. So many traitors . . .

? .... show me one post from anyone here who said anything about considering even the lowest confederate soldier to be a traitor, please because I must have missed that

yes, hundreds of thousands of confederate soldiers died in the civil war and it would be grossly wrong and unfair for anyone to say that every one of them was a racist, because no doubt many were conscripted to fight simply because they were born and raised in the south - and by being raised in an atmosphere of outright racism I have no doubt that many of them supported the southern cause because they believed in their state's right for white people to own slaves and yes that makes many of them fuking racists

the civil war was fought some 60 years after the United States of America was founded and yes by choosing to "secede" from the United States that does make them "traitors"
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 18, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/pressrelease/new-pbs-newshournprmarist-flash-poll-finds-majority-believe-trump-response-charlottesville-weak-fatal-car-rampage-act-domestic-terror/


A NPR poll....


EDIT to add ..... Dingus you do know that Lincoln didn't think that was true.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 18, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
Always angry.....always meaningless

Of course, the president betraying our country on multiple fronts is always meaningless anytime pushing your fringe agenda is more important the fate of the nation.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 18, 2017 - 02:40pm PT
We "Libtards" have been right all along...


TRUMP is a piece of SH!T!!!...



FACT!!!...

Hillary Clinton would have been a MUCH better choice...

So yesterday, I asked a friend of mine who voted for trump if he was embarrassed that he did. He said no, not yet, but he was greatly disappointed.
He said that he just could not bring himself to vote for Hillary. He went on to explain how Hillary was going to do things he wouldn't like. I asked him how he knew that. No answer.
See, with Hillary, we had someone who knew how government works.
Trump is like the guy who says you need an oil change, but can't tell you why.

Note: my friend is right of center, but not an that far right.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
EDIT to add ..... Dingus you do know that Lincoln didn't think that was true.

Funny...the other day you claimed Dems and trump opponents were traitors. Yet folks taking up arms in revolt are not.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
Norton:
the civil war was fought some 60 years after the United States of America was founded and yes by choosing to "secede" from the United States that does make them "traitors"
Norton, why do you call them traitors?

AFAIK, experts in constitutional law can't agree on a right of a state to secede.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
Bannon is not stupid, just evil.

Trump? Obviously evil. Has the attention span of someone stupid. UB the judge.

Days after Mr. Trump threatened to rain “fire and fury” on the North Korean government if it did not curb its belligerent behavior, Mr. Bannon said, “There’s no military solution here; they got us.”

“Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about,” Mr. Bannon said in a phone call with Robert Kuttner, The American Prospect’s co-editor.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
Yury, sounds like a case for the Supreme court to decide.

Oops, they didn't do that. That makes them traitors.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:51pm PT
As far as I understand Lincoln had two options:
 To start negotiations with Confederation
 To start Civil War

Do you know whether he attempted to negotiate?
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 18, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
Yury, did Lincoln fire the first shots?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
As far as I understand Lincoln had two options:
To start negotiations with Confederation
To start Civil War

Do you know whether he attempted to negotiate?

Yury, you know how to use a search feature, suggest your answers are on wiki - civil war
you don't need us to educate you
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
Way to keep it classy!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
My ancestors fought for the confederacy. Alabama Infintry.
We still have confederate money and sh#t like that around. I think they were basically fresh off the boat from Ireland and were conscripted. Luckily for me my great-great grandfather or whatever made it out alive!! I still say tear down all those statues and rename schools and post offices forthwith.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
Who are quotin Dwain??
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
So somebuddy, that's a years old post? Are you still proud of it? I think it's proud as raw insight if it's true? i can relate mostly, it's makin me blue too
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 18, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
Now, a 150 some odd years on I am content to call a traitor a traitor. I don't bandy that word about. It is what it is.


And the only patriots are those who have engaged in combat in defense of this country.

Clear enough. No waffling for you. Thanks.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
It's too bad you guys consider even the lowest confederate dirtbag soldier to be a traitor. Many tens of thousands died in the war. So many traitors . . .

Constitution of the United States:
ARTICLE III

Section 3
1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Professor, I'm puzzled by your assertion that the Constitution does not mean what it says. Do you advocate that the crime of treason is something else???

Personally, I have no problem with monuments to simple soldiers, perhaps confined to cemeteries where such are buried. This was totally fine with the US Gov't in Germany, Japan, and Italy.

However, monuments that glorify the act of treason, glorifying the leaders of such treason, seems to me to be repugnant.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
Hillary Clinton would have been a MUCH better choice...
Looker

This one got me thinkin how them dems want a mommy guvment to take care of them, you know, wipe there noses when their sick, provide them with education and school administrators that will conceal from the students parents when a female minor gets pregnant, maybe in a school bathroom, or a prom, etc, etc.... oh and they want jobs that when their hungover on Monday they can call in sick and get paid anyhow. Or jobs sitting behind a desk like a zombie waiting for their pension(DMV comes to mind, and Teachers {not you jgil or Socrates ). And by all means an insurance program that pays for their viagra and also pays for all the abortions(medical murder) they cause on the weekends after a labourus work week and their needing to unwhine. This money doesn't magically come out of the guvment; it comes from your pocket and mine! But wait, lets probe more on pensions. WTF!????? Pensions rely on one or two more generations to provide. Question; Why should my daughter start out life paying for my Grandmothers retirement????? Man, I'm not even gettin started!

The Repub' just want you to take care of yourself! And live a life of hope not hate!!!!

But it's really queer to denounce a person to either a Dem or Rep..

I think saying Liberal or Conservative is a better announcement of a persons direction.



Norton

Social climber
Aug 18, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 18, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
Careful Cosmic, someone might try to shame you by posting one of your requests for help.

And of course it won't work, just like your attempt.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 18, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Personally, I have no problem with monuments to simple soldiers, perhaps confined to cemeteries where such are buried


I agree with this. Those statues of Robert E. Lee and others can come down, be relocated in museums, or at the very least be paired with companion statues of MLK, Douglass, or some other powerful figure, sternly pointing fingers at the Dixie generals.

In the deep south of my childhood every little town had a town square with a courthouse and some kind of confederate memorial, frequently a statue of an ordinary Johnny Reb leaning on his rifle.

I would enjoy watching an effort to blast Lee, Sherman, and Davis from the granite mountainside outside Atlanta. They could shut down the DisneyWorld that Stone Mountain has become, also.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 18, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Bannon is not stupid, just evil.

Trump? Obviously evil. Has the attention span of someone stupid. UB the judge.

They're both s000 evil!! Haha....you dummies


monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
Yeah, Cosmic just whines and whines about his back till someone offers to help him out with money.

Edit: You know it's right BlueBlocr or maybe you just have a selective memory.

Cosmic: Any RICH Benefactors out there?

Then someone comes thru with the money:

Cosmic: Thank you LORD, and someone else for making this possible!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
^^^^THATS WRONG
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:23pm PT

mm...tastes like David Duke

Prolly tastes better than that slut Liewiskey, or whatever her name is😝
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
It's cool Cos, I was born in a car. So a trailer is a step up🤓
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
**HaHaHaaaa. Norton, you certainly don't know who Jesus IS!

Nor even Trump!!**

Get back to sleep 😴
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 19, 2017 - 01:47am PT
Monolith is a trustafarian pussy azzhatt and cannot begin to relate with normal people of any color or background.

Monolith could not climb its way out of a dirty paper bag
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 19, 2017 - 02:02am PT
Nortloon...are you condemning people that live in trailer parks?

On what basis?

You and the other loons here are classic bigot haters.

Disgusting little old hater fart bubblers.

You and the hardcore politard posters here are the real white nationalists.

REAL cowards
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty, inconceivable
Aug 19, 2017 - 06:16am PT
I think that there are some posters on this thread who are not exactly painting themselves on a positive canvas, or in a shining light, so to speak.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 19, 2017 - 07:36am PT
You idiot numskull republicans got it completely backwards

Too much brainwashing from the propaganda barons
you know those guys get paid millions to lie don't you?
maybe not, that's what makes you stupid, believing BS

The very definition of liberal is liberty, we hate being told what to do
Conservative ideology is all about telling people what to do,
don't do drugs, don't have sex, follow the laws or we will throw in jail and torture you as punishment

They take away opportunity by sending it to the lowest paying country on earth, they create low wages here, they are the cause of the millions of homeless here now and have no possible remedy to fix this, it will only get worse, they defund everything that made this country great, they create poverty and areas of environmental hell, sell off our public lands to other countries so they can exploit them, everything they do is bad for the people, but the duped still support them

The Democrat party is the party of the people, jobs, a safety net, good wages, clean air and water, good education and equal rights for all.
we defend minorities when we see them under right wing siege, because you guys have zero empathy for others.

The Republican Party is the party of the racists, fascists, Christian zealots, haters, pro death, pro guns, anti-environmental, anti-science
and really just in business to get votes by duping folks so they can provide for the billionaires that bribe them
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2017 - 07:50am PT
I happen to agree with much of Craig's perspective. I would not phrase it as brainwashing stupid people though- I would phrase it as artfully tapping into people's fears and anger and using their emotions to overrule their intellectual/rational decision-making.

Think of the name-calling and personal attacks on this thread as a microcosm of one aspect of America. Calling people stupid and azzhat and whatever other name is not going to enlighten anyone, is not going to help them see things from your perspective, and is not going to help this country. Maybe instead try something like this:

"I feel frustrated because (fill in the blank). What I perceive that does not seem to factor into your stated perspective is (fill in the blank). I think our country would be a better place if (fill in the blank)."


Any toddler can topple a tower of blocks, knock over a sandcastle. The question is, what can you create? What value can you add to the world? In all the years you have been on this planet, what have you learned that might reduce suffering for another being?


c wilmot

climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 08:09am PT
I would phrase it as artfully tapping into people's fears and anger and using their emotions to overrule their intellectual/rational decision-making

Democrats do this all the time. It's best evidenced by their insistence for a $15 minimum wage while catering to illegals who work at wages well below legal.

In reality both sides are wirking against the people.

If you think a politician supports you- then you are an idiot
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 19, 2017 - 08:13am PT
Democrats do not cater to illegal workers
Republicans do, they hire them

Some people in politics give a sh#t
Republicans Don't, Fact

What about Bernie and Elisabeth Warner

A $15 min wage isn't good for the people??
should they get paid less???
c wilmot

climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 08:15am PT
Those darn republican sanctuary cities...

It is hard not to respond to your idiotic posts Craig- you are truely insane
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 19, 2017 - 08:18am PT
I fight hate and lies

So I guess you guys are the enemy

When you lie about the other side, you are participating in Hate
Maybe you should listen to some factual info to pull out of the darkness

I was initially responding to blueblocker's lie filled hate rant about liberals

I guess the Christian churches teach this filth

Isn't it my side that is fighting against the Nazis and KKK
it sure isn't conservatives, most of them are in the same duped mind set of all sides are the same
those that fight for freedom are the somehow the same as those that want to take it away, nutso..
Norton

Social climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 08:47am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2017 - 10:03am PT
c_wilmot, I agree both major parties make emotional appeals intended to overrule reason. Both major parties figured out that taking the "moral high ground" of logic and reason instead of emotional appeals is not the way to win elections. That is an indictment against our collective societal judgment. That said, I personally think democrats have the vision and ideals that are more conducive to a prosperous society that I would like to participate in.

I'm not a fan of the $15 minimum wage though... my conflicting thoughts:

1. It will hurt very small businesses that can't afford to pay it but need the labor to deliver a product or service
2. It will increase unemployment because companies will hire fewer people and expect the existing ones to work harder for the higher wage.
3. It will increase illegal workers - people still need money and an illegal job less than $15/hr is better than no job
4. it will trigger inflation that makes commodity goods and services more expensive, effectively negating the point of increasing the wage in the first place.

-but-

4. The discrepancy between rich/poor is too great for a stable healthy society
5. People should be able to afford housing and healthcare if they are working full time


In the end, i think it's a wrong tactic to achieve an important strategic need in our society. I am a fan of progressive taxation and whatever measures that result in a more reasonable gap between low and high paid workers while addressing the concerns I raised. There should still be a market incentive to worker harder and cultivate more skills, but the difference should not cause the destitution of the masses.


zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 10:17am PT

Cliff notes for dummies, we all know who they are, right?

This Mad Dog t?


NO, the other one foolz.

Always sensitive to criticism, he now growls and nips at every doubting question, baring his teeth at questioners. If he keeps going mad dog on the press, how sanely will he perform when Mueller asks him questions in depositions?
Jorroh

climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 10:57am PT
Nutagain.
The jury is very much out on the economic effects of minimum wage hikes. There are all sorts of subtle long and short term variables that are hard to tease out.
However if minimum wage hikes are done incrementally then conclusions 1-4 are probably wrong.
Certainly the idea that minimum wage hikes result in inflation seems highly suspect in an environment of low demand/high wealth and income concentration.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 19, 2017 - 01:02pm PT
Democrats do this all the time. It's best evidenced by their insistence for a $15 minimum wage while catering to illegals who work at wages well below legal.

Well if it was up to Democrats most of those illegals would be given legal status.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 19, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
Craig Fat says
Isn't it my side that is fighting against the Nazis and KKK

You need serious psychiatric help Craig. So full of hate and lies. Dumb DUMB DUmB

Norton

Social climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
Byrd later called joining the KKK "the greatest mistake I ever made."[20] In 1997, he told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics but also warned, "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena."[21] In his last autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a KKK member because he "was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision—a jejune and immature outlook—seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions."[22] Byrd also said in 2005, "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."[11]

wiki

Try again, honey boo boo
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 19, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
If you think a politician supports you- then you are an idiot

Wilmot nails it... for the win.

Red or blue they'll both screw you.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 19, 2017 - 04:24pm PT
Yep.

Medical and legal ethics prevent me naming the nailer and the nailee.

This ain't no scientology or religion, my friends, it's the real thing.



BTW

Chapelle Show

Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal should tender her resignation effective the same day Trump tEnders his.

There is truth to the rumor that Dave is gonna be appointed Don-boy's own personal crack czar.

(not cracker, crack)


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 19, 2017 - 09:59pm PT

what have you learned that might reduce suffering for another being?

Cept, but the law demands sufferance from the guilty!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 19, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
If your guilty of not working, you might prolly live in a van down by the river!?
And have intestinal problems..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 19, 2017 - 10:37pm PT
So I've learned that there needs to be more jobs than there are people! Cept I won't provide any in the construction field cause the frickin guvment wants more per hour than I can give a laborer! SFT!
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 19, 2017 - 11:46pm PT
Byrd later called joining the KKK "the greatest mistake I ever made."[

Norton gives Byrd a hall pass. What about the Clinton's? They loved this monster

Classic racist move by Nortl00n. YOU are such a goon!!

YOU and you're clan here will continue to run your cockwashers 24/7.

Keep it going. Expose yourselves for what you really are.

Bigoted little dying old fartbubblers

pop
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2017 - 11:46pm PT
KKK leader threatens life of Afro-Latina journalist during interview

"We killed 6 million Jews the last time. Eleven million is nothing," said the KKK's Chris Barker
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2017 - 11:47pm PT
Norton gives Byrd a hall pass. What about the Clinton's? They loved this monster

Classic racist move by Nortl00n. YOU are such a goon!!

YOU and you're clan here will continue to run your cockwashers 24/7.

Keep it going. Expose yourselves for what you really are.

Bigoted little dying old fartbubblers

pop

At least we don't have to worry about you being a fake Christian, and damning yourself to hell.......
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 19, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
LOfukingL @ Trump supporters...

You ALL are such a fuking JOKE...


L0cker is too old and stoned to know whats going on.

L0ocker is the real fuking joke

Sober up toolbooiieee
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 20, 2017 - 12:02am PT
At least we don't have to worry about you being a fake Christian, and damning yourself to hell.......

Kenny...wtf are you rambling about?

Lay off on the painkillers brah.

I suggest you go for a walk and try a suppository. Green veggies too!
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 20, 2017 - 07:59am PT
Since the dems are as racist as Byrd used to be, you wonder how Obama got elected? Maybe they thought he was an Uncle Tom.

And clearly now (thanks fake drF) all those black democrat voters are dumb as a doorknob by supporting the racist democratic party.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 20, 2017 - 08:05am PT
Obama was elected because of the free phone and beef jerky give aways...drF got a lifetime supply of jerky and is voraciously gnawing like a meat bee flying in and out of a dead horses ass...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty, inconceivable
Aug 20, 2017 - 08:21am PT
A certain poster here is accusing a couple of others of being nuts but the guy himself seems to be having a meltdown. Maybe CBT might help.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 20, 2017 - 10:07am PT
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/why-there-are-no-nazi-statues-in-germany-215510?lo=ap_d1
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 20, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
And this is before his deposition.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 20, 2017 - 07:06pm PT
^^^ polls showing trump unfavorable rating

And yet,
Trump is acting the same as he has all along.
We know nothing more about him now than we did a year ago.
Why is it so hard for some to see the obvious.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 20, 2017 - 07:35pm PT
yes, Mr. trump is one of the most vetted President's in history

He has been a public figure for 40 years and his personal life, divorces, business bankruptcies.
public pronouncements and TV Reality shows have all been readily available for anyone to examine in order to decide if they want him to be US President

Knowing how government actually works, qualifications, no longer mean anything at all

Mr Trump's election proved that, 60 million America adults, not children, made that decision

New poll came out today, shows the majority of registered voters in three key battleground states now consider the US President to be an"embarrassment"



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 20, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
Hey Norton,
You sound like every news broadcast and SNL episode this season! Give us something news worthy!!

Knowing how government actually works, qualifications, no longer mean anything at all

What's your list qualifications? Ain't it made in the USA, English speaking, and, oh yeah, must believe in god. Or atleast able to say they doo.😉

Don't you think it was about time the guvment is vetted? Chump is just the almighty sacrifice.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 20, 2017 - 10:32pm PT

polls showing trump unfavorable rating

Yet he's more popular then ever. WTF?
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 20, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
Yeah, that makes sense.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 20, 2017 - 11:00pm PT
This isn't your regular popularity contest, but Trunph is sharing his "popularity"amongst a rapidly declining subset of people (or surrogates thereof).

Hence his popularity per capita appears to be higher.

It's like a frenzy in a dwindling group of circle jerkers trying to get their meager rocks off to get the two bit payoff before it's too late
Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:25am PT
*In April, CNN reported that Trump's travel to his private club in Florida has cost more than an estimated $20 million in his first 80 days in office, putting the President on pace to surpass former President Barack Obama's eight years of spending on travel -- in only his first year in office.

WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:40am PT
Trump has drained the secret service of its annual budget

Then why are you not stopping it?

It's because you Americans have no democracy.

You only have a demon crazy pack of fools running you.

It's supposed to be for the people by the people.

Yer all crazy, insane and stoopid letting yourselves being ruled by these insane people .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:42am PT
And they keep staring at the same useless "polls" that said The Orange One can never win and that Killary was a sure thing.....

As if the "polls" now mean anything. It's all garbage folks... don't you get it?

So funny.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:47am PT
As if the "polls" now mean anything. It's all garbage folks... don't you get it?

They never get anything at all.

Just idiots drooling and staring at their stoopid medias daily news feeds .....
c wilmot

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:56am PT
Enlightened or not you are still viewed in the same manner by those in power. The people of today are no more respected by those in power than a peasant working the fields of medieval Europe.


Do something about it? That's a fast track to death or imprisonment


Let them stare at I phones
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 21, 2017 - 08:17am PT
iThinigies and covefe for all! And throw in some polls to keep them rabbling with each other!
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanitty, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 09:04am PT
I think that John Dean may know a couple of things about the White House and scandals.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2017 - 09:09am PT
Secret Service has run out of money to pay overtime to its agents. Trump is on track to exceed Obamas 8 year security costs, in one year. Thankfully the orange sh#t gibbon will not be around for 4 years.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 10:31am PT
I just have to ask those who support Trump, those who are anti-Trump and those who do not care. Do you think Trump cares?

This is a dream for him. And he is laughing. At all of us. Perhaps especially at those who support him.

Werner may be correct, stoopid Americans (I just wish he'd give that one a rest, he has posted it enough, thank you).

The darkness of the eclipse may last only a couple of minutes in some locales, but Trump's incompetence, ignorance and greed will cast a dark shadow for some time to come.

And you know, it will probably hit those the hardest who support him. A balloon busted.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Like a good narcissist, Trump cares deeply about what people think. It is killing him to realize that he is going down as the worst president ever. The icing on the cake is the shocking realization that Obama knew exactly what he was doing. Trump is too much of an egomaniac to admit he is wrong, and that will hurt the country.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:07am PT
Yes, he cares very much whether he is liked or not. This is shown in the defensive posture he takes. He recently said(paraphrase) "If anyone else had made this decision, they'd be applauded...." and also in the way he insisted his events are so well attended.

However, his wealth also insulates him from the reality of what people actually think of him. He's able to surround himself with sycophants and lawyers/bodyguards to keep people to whom he owes money, apologies, and/or explanations safely at bay. This allows him to avoid facing his culpability in many of his relationships which have gone poorly.

If Donald Trump had grown up going to public school, and had to walk home or ride the schoolbus, he'd have had his butt kicked on a weekly basis. He'd have been the one stuffed into a locker, and "kick me" signs taped to his back. Think about it - did YOU and your friends just sit there and let other kids lie to your face with their outrageous claims? Ir did you remind them - sometimes for years - about the lies? Did YOU and your friends let other kids get away with stealing from you? Did you keep hanging out with a guy who always seemed short on the cash "this time" when it came time to pay for the dinner tab?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Knowing how government actually works, qualifications, no longer mean anything at all

LOL... yes, that was demonstrated conclusively when Obama was elected. Community Organizer (in Chicago, double-LOL) turned junior senator that didn't even finish one term.

Trump is quantum-leaps more qualified to be CEO in Chief than Obama was, even by the end of his eight years. That's not saying much! But it's saying something. Obama definitely set the low bar for presidential qualifications during our lifetimes. It really demonstrates that it doesn't take much to be a corporate/banking puppet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:19am PT
LOL... yes, that was demonstrated conclusively when Obama was elected. Community Organizer (in Chicago, double-LOL) turned junior senator that didn't even finish one term.

Constitutional law professor. State Senator.


the usual qualification to be "Madbolter" is to be "assistant Madbolter".

To be the Chief Politician, to be a lesser politician.

To be IN CHARGE of gov't, to have been IN gov't.

What kind of an insane Madbolter would be to place in charge of bolting, someone who has never placed a bolt, with no supervision?

But Trump bragged that he was the most qualified, because he had been the best at corrupting the political system.

That's the conservative concept of management.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:30am PT
Constitutional law professor. State Senator.

Wowww... as if those two roles have anything to do with being President. A one-term state senator is really nothing.

Face the facts: Obama was selected by the DNC to be fast-tracked to the highest office because they realized that they had pure gold on their hands. Totally unqualified gold, but gold nevertheless. Literally, black gold. Qualifications don't matter in the slightest.

It is to laugh, but you true-believers just can get your brains around how laughable it is.

And systemic corruption??? You think Obama made things better or worse?

Of course you're gonna say "better," but that just shows how deeply you have quaffed the Kool-Aid.

NOBODY in our government is for us. NOBODY. This is the grandest, sickest game in human history, and you guys choose sides like it matters.

I'll vote third-party for the rest of my life. Maybe at some point some change can actually occur as the two present parties are finally recognized for the sickness that they BOTH are.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:32am PT
President Obama got things done despite the obstructionism of Congress.

What Obama "got done" was Obamacare, passed when Dems owned the government and could do it without a single Republican vote and not even all of the Dems voting for it.

Everything else of "substance" done via executive orders, which are already being undone. Precious little actual law, Obamacare being the "shining example" of what NOT to do and how NOT to do it.

Actually, I prefer a government in absolute deadlock, unable to "do" anything more than the damage it already has done. The more government "does," the worse things become. I'm all for absolute deadlock.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:40am PT
Sheesh, MB's on another Obummer tirade.

It'll pass in a few days.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:40am PT
Hold your pole and keep your powder dry.



The AAPOR report lays much of the blame at the feet of forecasters like the website FiveThirtyEight and the New York Times, which used polling data — and, sometimes, other data streams — to predict which candidate would win. "Aggregations of poll results and projections of election results had a difficult year in 2016," the report says. "They helped [crystallize] the erroneous belief that Clinton was a shoo-in for president."

Those models gave Clinton anywhere from a 65 to 99 percent chance of winning — and, said Lee Miringoff, who heads the Marist College Institute for Public Opinion and participated in drafting the AAPOR report, "were driving the narrative" that Clinton's election was assured. Moreover, Miringoff said, there weren't very many high-quality state polls in the closing days of the race — which made Clinton's chances look stronger than they actually were.

"As we look back on 2016, election night was a big surprise for most," Miringoff said. "But the national polls were saying this was a close race. And the battleground state polls, where there were quality polls close to Election Day, were also saying this was a close race."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:40am PT
Madbolter... so If Obama runs 3rd party you'll vote for him..?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2017 - 11:44am PT
Madbolter, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on the Vanity Fair article about the Department of Energy.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:44am PT
The concept that escapes you MB is that of leadership. Trump is a poor leader. Obama was a natural. Ever dawn on you that Obamacare is actually popular with a majority of the country? Probably not. Ever dawn on you that diplomacy averted a nuclear showdown in iran? Probably not. Lets talk about energy policy under Obama, worked out nicely and the economy responded. We understand you hate Obama, but that does not mean you have to defend Trump.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:45am PT

A FROG killed Osama, but Obama paid him to do it, not Bush.

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 11:49am PT
Trump is quantum-leaps more qualified to be CEO in Chief than Obama was

Hey MB1, whatcha been smoking?

Do we really have to revisit his bankruptcies and corporate failures (and the need to turn to Russian financiers, because US and other banks would not loan him due to his failures and incompetence? It is on record.) Do we really? What effing cloud are you living on dude?

The guy has messed up more companies and screwed more (primarily small) business people than... well, actually, I have had a lot of hot lunches.

I do not know if you are trolling on that statement or really believe it. If the former, have fun, you hooked me, if the latter, I pity you.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Yes... Trump is a great President.. What other President would have the business savy to win the election by getting the Commies to dig up dirt on Hillary in an attempt to lift sanctions on Trump's daddy Putin thus enabling Donald to grow his investments in Russia. ?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Defeated Republican Voter School - When being crushed question the truth's "source"

come on honey boo, you can do it


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
Obama proved to be pretty worthless..... and to think I voted for him... the first time around.

How about the "red line"??? and Nuclear war "adverted" with Iran... thats a big LOL if there ever was one. How about NW postponed to a new time and place of Irans choosing.

You people put on the rose colored glasses some more...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
guyman.. You're correct.. Obama should have said " met with fire and fury ".. Get over oBama and heel...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
Guyman, it is evening time here now, I have done a day's work, so I can play.

Rose-tinted glasses. I suppose I wear them at times. Do you? If you think you do not, well then who is delusional?

Obama, he could have done more but he was stifled a lot by a Republican Congress. It is there on record if you care to look.

Obama, inexperienced? Perhaps? This time around Clinton was not inexperienced, very competent indeed, but she sure carried a lot of baggage. And her attitude left a lot to be desired.

But how in the world can any sensible person support Trump? I understand Guyman your distaste for the system. And I will agree with you on several points/issues/matters.

But if you really think that Trump and his ilk are the ones to truly disrupt the system, to change it, I will vehemently disagree with you on that. Yes the system(s) need(s) changing but IMO Trump is certainly not the person to do it.

With all respect to you, because I have read your posts and you seem genuine, I have to write that you are misguided. Trump is not your man, and I truly believe history will bear that out.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
Keezy hearts Cheezee...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
I will admit that Syria was an unmitigated disaster, but could Obama really have improved the situation? A Republican Congress refused to take action, as usual. Has Trump handled Syria any better? Trumps strike after chemical weapons were used was a joke. Putin capitalized on Trumps compromise, something we will learn about in the coming years. The clues are in Trumps tax returns. Muller will be viewing those.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
Thanks sleezy..
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
Trump will start WWIII and nuke all you stoopid politards.

Then the planet will become peaceful again ......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
Braun.. The eclipse is over... get back in your bunker...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
And before I hit the wine and cheese, well, cheese, wine is dear on my budget, I would like to write to any Trump supporters...

... are you effing crazy?

The guy is a disaster. His casinos were a disaster. His businesses for the most part a disaster. His presidency (if you want to call it that), a disaster. His administration, dysfunctional. His appointments? Uh, well, blame the obstructionist Democrats, though they do not control Congress.

Some people point to the economics, many of the jobs and upturn were either announced before he turned into his bed at 1600 Penn St. or were the result of previous policies (read Obama administration). Damn it, the records and reports are there for anybody to access.

Jaysus, it is so obvious, the guy is a loser, yet he is winning at pulling the wool over many eyes. Give him credit for that, he knows how to bamboozle. So I guess he is a winner at bullsh#t. Loser at everything else... marriages, businesses, mafia and mob cronies, Russia. It is there to see and it is not fake news. Get a grip. Time will tell and time will expose.

But if he lasts through his term, as long as there is no long-term damage, America and indeed the world, will survive.

But I wonder what his Presidential Library will look like. Perhaps golden toilet seats and golden tweets.

Like I said, a day is done, work is done (never) and I will play. Pissing down rain here, nothing else to do.


EDIT

Now I am going to go walk Aggie (dog) on the beach and I do not care if some misguided Supertopians want to take issue with me. If you do, make it sensible and intelligent.

Donald Trump will go down as perhaps the worst POTUS in the history of the US. That is my prediction and I would post it on the prediction thread but I believe it is more apt here.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
For all you politards ......

http://www.trueactivist.com/tiny-owl-adopts-belgium-shepherd-and-now-theyre-the-best-of-friends-photos/
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
Nice Werner.

Post up y'all.


Republican Stewart and Democrat Fonda (from The Cheyenne Social Club)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joPMuaFa1Ds

Story is, Fonda and Stewart (best of friends for many years before and after the incident) had a fistfight (the liberal Fonda won apparently) around 1948, and both (bomber pilot and eventual brigadier general Stewart and Lt JG Fonda) decided that their friendship was too important for politics and ideology to get in the way and supposedly never talked politics with one another again.

Could polarized America learn something from that?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 21, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
Could polarized America learn something from that?

I have a buddy like that, we do not talk politics. We get along great and plenty of things in common. As time goes by I wonder how healthy this is? I have an uncle I respect with all my heart and soul and we are on the opposite ends and yet we can discuss politics but fortunately we get hella bored and talk hunting or go looking for one of 'his' covey of quail up Kern canyon somewheres...anyway, it might be ok for the short-term but
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 21, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
Vlad- Dude- with ALL due respect..... I voted for something, and I got it and I am pretty happy with it. Yes sir I am happy with it.

No more business as usual for all of the folks in Government.

Hard for you to figure?

Remove your rose colored glasses.

I removed mine years ago.



Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
Cragar, I am talking about tolerance, understanding and compromise.

I am talking about the critical thinking of understanding an opposing viewpoint, yet not letting it get in the way of living. Of friendship and family.

We get along great and plenty of things in common. As time goes by I wonder how healthy this is?

Only as healthy or unhealthy as the parties involved care it to be. I know that is simplistic, but is it?

anyway, it might be ok for the short-term but

But what?

Cragar, I understand. There are long-term implications in our dealings with those close to us who may have different viewpoints.

How to strike a balance?

It is best to try and understand the other viewpoint(s). Then work from there.

I do click on some of the links that are presented here on the forum by those who I see differently from (Trump supporters, conservatives, right wingers). I do try and only hope I succeed in seeing the "other side".

I have no answers, I do not pretend to. Questions galore, but no answers for the door.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
Guy, I can respect that you want something different from what you have experienced before. Can you articulate what a beautiful golden outcome would be for you?

One of the problems I learned about trying to change something or break a bad habit, is that it's not enough to just say "I don't want x any more" or "I want to stop doing x". There has to be something to fill in that vacuum when you remove something else.

So what do you want to go into that vacuum when you remove the "government establishment"?
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
PIMPOTUS of LOVE

#NotSteveMiller

Despite the scrutiny, Trump Models has deleted its Instagram account. Sources report Trump cannot provide accounts showing Trump Models was ever a legitimate business. There are multiple public reports that the agency forced girls to work for slave wages. The Daily Beast’s Michael Gross also reported that Donald Trump personally pimped out underage girls from parties at his own hotels. For this, Trump, and his children Don Jr, Eric and Ivanka Trump, all part of Trump International Hotels management, may be held liable, sources say.

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
zBrown, I have not heard of that and I will look further into that. But it would not surprise me to see that Trump and Co were involved in some sort of agency like that. And not to belabor a point, but did Melania come to America and work legally?

Yes, some of you Trumpers, insult me if you want, but I know what it is like to be legal and illegal (undocumented) in a country.

It appears, that Trump has so many skeletons in his closet. And to those who support him on this forum, do you support him or his "ideas"?

The guy is using you people to enrich himself and his ego. It is so obvious, do not let your hate for the system blind you that you picked the wrong dude.

People point to his successes, the White House Press Office points to his "historic", uhh, I am going to have trouble finishing this sentence. His "historic"... gosh...

What successes? Many of the economic positives that have happened in the past six plus months because of policies or decisions put in place before Donny's head hit the pillow at 1600 Penn Ave. Look it up. These things do not happen overnight.

How in the world can you people support this donkey? You want change (who doesn't?) then this guy is not it.

I await sensible feedback. And for those who want to moan and insult me, yawn...

EDIT

I do not read from one source. I do not research from one source, (from many, I do, f*#k man I am a recognised writer and I try to cover all angles objectively. Do I succeed? Perhaps not, but I try). I look even at Breitbart (but I draw the line at Drudge, what a scumbag). I look at the links some of you Trump supporters present.

I am totally unconvinced your man is the biz. Hell, he cannot even run his own businesses in the black. Look it up. it is there. No fake news. Accounts and such.

America and you have been sold a loser. That is my opinion. But now that he is POTUS, his debts, his money problems, poof, the magic dragon.


EDIT
Guyman, I just saw your post. Well, if you are happy with the way matters are unfolding, what can I say. But I wonder if you have removed your rose-tinted glasses as you have claimed, and then to 'remonstrate' with me to remove mine. Best wishes, Paddy
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Trump stared at the eclipse with naked eyes. I am willing to bet Obama was not that stupid


zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
Furthermore, the sex trafficking of girls and underage children is linked to the Russian government via the same internet data that links Hostkey, the Russian hackers of the American election, with Mir Telemakti. They all share a registrant address in the British Virgin Islands.


Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
You know, on a final note, I am finished trying to make some understand, not that I know that much mind you. But I have always tried to keep an open mind.

I can sing to the "echo chamber" of those who agree with me, and I can try to make those who do not see my way a different viewpoint that some do not want to see.

So be it.

I have too much to do but to joust with some on this forum, to cross swords. That is not what I am here to do. I have made my mistakes on this forum, in some ways, but I trust you all as climbers, we have that in common.

I have a social enterprise to get off the ground, Health Horizons, to fight dementia, and also a business that will make money (Thespis3T), hopefully.

I bid you all a fare well. I will be deactivating my account as I did with Patrick Sawyer (once I get through to admin). Life is too short.

Regards and cheers

Patrick
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
Thanks Dwain, so do I. It was a pleasure not knowing you and I imagine the feeling is mutual.

Until admin deactivates my account (I asked a short time ago, emailed) I will still respond to idiots and sensible people. Take your pick which you are.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
Jon Beck:
I will admit that Syria was an unmitigated disaster, but could Obama really have improved the situation?
Jon Beck, assuming Obama cared aboute peace he could have prevented States Department and Hillary from starting a sectarian war in Syria.

Obama did nothing and allowed States Department hawks to destroy Syria similar to other Middle Eastern and North African countries.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
Dwain wrote:

You Idiot.

Yeah. I am, and it takes one to know one. Am I in good company?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
"NOBODY in our government is for us. NOBODY. This is the grandest, sickest game in human history, and you guys choose sides like it matters.

I'll vote third-party for the rest of my life. Maybe at some point some change can actually occur as the two present parties are finally recognized for the sickness that they BOTH are."

Said like a true expert on a subject in which he has never met anyone in gov't. All hypothetical, nothing practical.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
and Nuclear war "adverted" with Iran... thats a big LOL if there ever was one.

yep, when we held the nuclear war last week.....OH! you mean there hasn't been one? In spite of the predictions of the GOP that it would happen within a year if the deal passed?

Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
In April, CNN reported that Trump's travel to his private club in Florida has cost more than an estimated $20 million in his first 80 days in office, putting the President on pace to surpass former President Barack Obama's eight years of spending on travel -- in only his first year in office.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 21, 2017 - 03:40pm PT
Vlad- Dude- with ALL due respect..... I voted for something, and I got it and I am pretty happy with it. Yes sir I am happy with it.

Keesee, dude. what you voted for is a disaster.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
Anders, Mighty Hiker, a sound post and better advice. It is dark now, no not the eclipse, but I have walked Aggie twice on the beach today, first before going to town for business, and then after.

Yeah, maybe I should shut up, but since I will no longer be on this forum (I will be back as Patrick Sawyer if I have some climbing posts, hopefully) I like to spray a bit. I hope that is allowed.

I just cannot believe there are that many people who think Trump is the business. At best, the guy is an idiot savant.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
Patrick -- "I am beginning to be immune to bullsh#t, but fire away if you want."

LOL, ..... that is the best thing you've said for a while now ..... LOL
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
Keesee, dude. what you voted for is a disaster.


The lesser of the two, I reckon.


And Patrick.. please don't start up with asking the management to DE-activate you. If you want to just stop looking at the taco.

I have enjoyed your somewhat unique posts and posting style.

You say you try to understand "the other side" but in reality I do not believe that you do.

And no body here is bullying you to do anything..... the DUCK bullies all of us in his own way.

So what wine you drinking tonight?
c wilmot

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
the Syrian conflict never would have lasted had obama not intervened on behalf of the terrorists. He was illegally supporting an armed coup as early as 2011.

The Syrian war is in large part an obama legacy

At least trump stopped the obama CIA program to directly arm Syrian terrorists. A program obama repeatedly lied about claiming no such support existed
c wilmot

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
Yet you have nothing but a silly insult.


You seriously think the rebels would be around without the endless support the US has given them?

Let them stand on their own. I doubt they would last a month.

Edit- insults...you read one article and think you are an expert..


Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
Vlad posted;
You want change (who doesn't?) then this guy is not it.

British Prime Minister Lord Salisbury is said to have remarked to Queen Victoria;
"Change, change, why do we need more change? Aren't things bad enough already?"
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
The concept that escapes you MB is that of leadership.

It doesn't escape me; I just don't believe it exists at the federal level in our era. Partisan thinkers always believe that "their guy" is/was a great leader. Of course the "other guy" is always an incompetent buffoon and a danger to democracy itself.

Trump is a poor leader. Obama was a natural.

And there's my point.

Ever dawn on you that Obamacare is actually popular with a majority of the country? Probably not.

Ah, FINALLY you're able to accurately write that. You've had to wait a long time for that statement to be accurate, and it's only just recently accurate. Also, if it weren't for the cluster-fornication that is the Rebumblecon's "efforts," you still wouldn't be able to accurately say it. It's accurate only in the context of its comparison with the stupidity exhibited by the Repub's this go-round.

So, you have this tiny window of time in which the BARE majority prefer it to the Rebumblecon's cluster-fornication, but that hardly means that Obamacare has been popular with the majority for the vast majority of the time it's been in effect.

If your definition of "leadership" is cramming a new entitlement down the throats of the middle-class when your party owns the government, done in the greatest evidence of PURE partisanship in our lifetimes, well, then we cannot agree on the basic definition of "natural leadership". I call it a joke, and even the "majority" you refer to regarding this very momentary "acceptance" of Obamacare are in agreement that Obamacare was and is a horrific mess that exhibited everything but "leadership". And, ironically, Obama's first election (the one that got him Obamacare) was established on an absolute commitment to cross-party negotiations and non-partisanship.

Here are a couple of haunting quote from that first election (of course, you guys will spin all these as "damn those Republicans that kept him from making good on these promises"):

“Washington is broken. My whole campaign has been premised from the start on the idea that we have to fundamentally change how Washington works.”

Uh, nope.

“I think that I’m a better speechwriter than my speechwriters. I know more about policies on any particular issue than my policy directors. And I’ll tell you right now that I’m gonna think I’m a better political director than my political director.”

LOL... THAT one sounds exactly like Trump! If you heard that from Trump, you'd be frothing at the mouth. But this was YOUR guy's unmitigated arrogance.

If Obama exhibited "leadership," then you make my point for me that I don't WANT anybody "leading"! Deadlock is the best form of OUR version of government (utterly corrupt, entirely in the pockets of big-banking and mega-corps), and with "we the people" so entirely divided on party lines that no true reform is even logically possible.

Ever dawn on you that diplomacy averted a nuclear showdown in iran?

Ah, there you go, making me laugh again. Keep 'em coming. You can't purchase this hilarious of entertainment by going to a comedy club.

Probably not.

No, "certainly not" is the line that applies in this context.

Lets talk about energy policy under Obama, worked out nicely and the economy responded.

If you call "energy policy" being in bed with mega-corps, big-oil, furthering the lie of dependency on foreign fossil fuels and lacking the huevos to actually END dependency on fossil fuels, well, again you just make my first point. Partisans will always spin "for their guy."

In the end, Obama will be remembered for the cluster-fornication of a new entitlement that (he says, proudly) bears his name.

You guys now spin that mess as "a step in the right direction" and say, "It was a necessary step toward what we really need: single-payer," as if Obamacare was DESIGNED that way. In FACT, it simply handed us to the insurance companies on a silver platter, was lobbied for hardest by THEM, and had ONLY that in its design. There was no "brilliance" or "leadership" in any of it.

And I always LOL at lines like "the economy responded." With "logic like that," well, I guess that Trump has been a winner, and, despite y'all's dire prognostications to the contrary, even Brexit has been a yuge winner.

You give credit where it isn't due, and you levy condemnations where they are not due. In FACT, "the economy" has virtually nothing to do with the President, and "causes" are always so oblique and long-delayed that exactly as cogent of arguments can be made to condemn one president as laud another. The time-slices in which you do your interpretations matter, and the truly "long-term results" are literally impossible to associate with this or that particular administration.

Finally, "the economy" is so amazingly robust that it's flat-out hard to keep it down. So, despite government's MANY mistakes with temporary hits to the optimism and productivity of most Americans, we tend to absorb the hits, adjust, and keep on rockin'. Thus, there are up and down turns, with a long-term trend of up.

Obama should get zero credit for the fact that "the economy" is amazingly resilient, despite HITS like Obamacare.

We understand you hate Obama, but that does not mean you have to defend Trump.

You misunderstand on both sides of that line. I don't hate Obama. I even voted for him the first time, you know, hoping for "change" that I never got. Even Obamacare was NO "reform"! However, even in retrospect, I don't consider him "the worst president ever" or that sort of froth that now is everywhere on the right.

By contrast, I don't "defend Trump." He's about as appealing as an old pile of bat droppings, and that is how I actually feel about him. I despise the Republicans about equally with the Democrats at this point. My position is that there's no defending ANY of them.

I got Gorsuch on the SCOTUS courtesy of Trump, and I take that to be a good thing. I might get lucky that sort of way once more. That will be a good thing, imo. But that's about all I even hope for. Everything else is a wash, and the LESS that government does "for me," the BETTER!

The question was asked, "If Obama ran third-party would I vote for him?" Well, that depends on "which Obama" we're talking about. I voted for him the first time, and knowing all I knew then and nothing more, I probably would have voted for him third-party. But there's no point in speculating.

If we're talking about "Obama as we know him in retrospect," well, there are multiple third-parties. LOL So, no need to be saddled with voting for him as the only "third-party alternative." I didn't and wouldn't vote for the Obama I knew by round two, and I wouldn't vote for that Obama as a third-party candidate. But, as I say, there are multiple third-parties.

My overarching point is that you guys will defend the indefensible if it's "your guy," and meanwhile you'll sweepingly bash on Trump as "the worst ever." The right says that about Obama, and the left has their new bashing-boy in Trump. It's all a sick game.

The day that the majority can get past partisan commitments is the day this nation has a hope of real reform. Until then, we can all just settle in to "enjoy" a deeper and deeper divided nation, with more and more gridlock, more and more acrimonious "discussions" that are DOA, and more and more factious power-grabbing... ALL manipulated by big-money, mega-corps, and international bankers--ALL of whom are OUR real enemies.

Carry on!
Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
the Syrian conflict never would have lasted had obama not intervened on behalf of the terrorists.

Moronic.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
Yes moronic

Patrick.


c wilmot

climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
Insightful response healyje...

Insults are what people resort to when they have no ability to respond with a thoughtful comment



zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:24pm PT


Former Conservative MP accuses Donald Trump of engaging in sexual acts with victims of human trafficking


Louise Mensch claims that the alleged video tape is now in the possession of Robert Mueller, who was the FBI Director from 2001-2013.


http://evolvepolitics.com/former-conservative-mp-accuses-donald-trump-engaging-sexual-acts-victims-human-trafficking/
Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
maybe, maybe not

but just because one does not want to believe it does not make it true or not
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
More Fake News

Surely you'll be able to prove it is then, right

#bs
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
Prelude to an unannounced withdrawal?

Notice that to get his 'military' appearance on he got a haircut and dye job and presumably a bone spur fix up in case he wants to re-up after his wonderful, wonderful service During the Vietnam war fighting STD's


Oh yeah,wasn't this rushed out in order to just change the subject and get the heat turned down?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:08pm PT
Denial is when you think what is happening in the White House is normal...
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Denial was still in Alaska last time I checked.

Oh wait, that's a different one.

Locker up
Locker up

Oh wait

Lock him up
Lock him up

Norton

Social climber
Aug 21, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
Hilliary for Prison 2017

ok Cosmic, you are a really smart and well informed Republican voter, right?

you have it all, a Republican President, Senate, House, and Attorney General

why do you suppose it is that Mrs Clinton has not been tried, convicted and jailed by now?

exactly what "crime" has she committed, what law did she break, Cosmic?

state the statute and article
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 21, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
SomebodyAnybody:
This is some woefully simplistic and misinformed bullsh#t. Syrian civil war kicked off long before the U.S. got involved and was really born out of a drought if you want to get right down to it.
According to Al Jazeera it started in 2011 when Obama was in the office.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/syria-civil-war-explained-160505084119966.html
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
And Yury, is was not before that, was it? Say perhaps some 100 years before. If not even earlier. How do we read history?

Interesting article though with some valid points. Though the video starts out a bit melodramatic. but to some people, war is a melodrama.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Hey Redbreast is nice, wish I could afford it.

You are not clever Dwain, try again.

And so this thread deteriorates into name calling (mea culpa) and away from what is best for the nation (and Canada too Jimbo). So it seems I have a Trump supporter, Dwain, and a Trump sympathiser, Canadian Jim, wishing me ill. You cannot make this sh#t up.

If I lose any sleep tonight, it will be because I am laughing.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 21, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
So it seems I have a Trump supporter, Dwain, and a Trump sympathiser, Canadian Jim, wishing me ill.

No, Patrick, Jim is no Trump sympathizer. I'm not sure how you came up with that idea, but you couldn't be farther from the truth.

Dwain? Yeah, I think he's one of the millions of people who Trump has screwed for years, and that therefore they believe they should support him, but Mr. Brennan? Where did you get the idea that Jim was sympathetic to anything Donald Trump has ever said, done, or proposed?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 09:21pm PT
Ah Ghost, I was just throwing that out there. I suspect Jim is not a Trump sympathiser, I was just trying to be mean. But if I am an ass then Jim is a smug ass, certainly about me (and I may or may not deserve it), but he is smug, read his previous posts over the years.

As for me, well, I have a lot of work to do, in more ways than one.

But Jim is correct, this thread is not about me or him or any other Taco Stander. It is about what is good for America (and as Jim is a Canadian it does affect Canada).

In my lay opinion, we have a POTUS who is unhinged, and that is not good.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Aug 21, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
Yeah Jim, and at my age, I should know better. But I am still trying to learn, unlike you, I do not have all the answers. I still delight in new discoveries about life, everyday.

EDIT

Deleted because it was a dumb thing to write.

EDIT

And I do apologise if I have ever offended anybody. Yes Jim and Dwain too. I can make excuses, but at the end of the day, I have only myself to answer for.

cheers

Patrick
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 22, 2017 - 07:24am PT
Hilliary for Prison 2017

The Republicans have spent over $200 million of taxpayer money investigating the Clintons. Cosmic, why do you suppose they haven't found anything to jail Bill or Hillary on?

Could perhaps $200 million have been better spent on, say, education in some poor district?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2017 - 08:24am PT
Alright... here's a policy issue. Should the government be able to conduct highly unfocused searches that target people based on party/candidate affiliation?

Executive branch of US Govt trying to round up records for people who visited anti-Trump websites... the noose is tightening as we make America greater and greater. Will he be kicked out first or will he declare martial law and call upon volunteer militias to "take back America" from our "corrupt institutions."?



Tech firm is fighting a federal demand for data on visitors to an anti-Trump website (Washington Post)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/tech-company-is-fighting-a-federal-order-for-ip-addresses-to-find-visitors-to-an-anti-trump-website/2017/08/14/a65b7544-8152-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html

In J20 Investigation, DOJ Overreaches Again. And Gets Taken to Court Again (Electronic Frontier Foundation)
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/08/j20-investigation-doj-overreaches-again-and-gets-taken-court-again

DreamHost is fighting DoJ request for 1.3M IP addresses of visitors to anti-Trump protest site (Tech Crunch)
https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/15/dreamhost-is-fighting-doj-request-for-1-3m-ip-addresses-of-visitors-to-anti-trump-protest-site/

US government demands details on all visitors to anti-Trump protest website (The Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/donald-trump-inauguration-protest-website-search-warrant-dreamhost
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 22, 2017 - 08:36am PT
The same thing could be said about the so called Trump/Russia
connection.

Indeed, but that doesn't answer my question.
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 22, 2017 - 08:41am PT
Except that its Trumps own party that are investigating the Trump/Russia connection.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Yeah, under pressure from the Democrats.

What pressure could the Democrats apply considering the Republicans run everything?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:28am PT

The Right Wing State Sanctioned media says it's Democrats and RINOS!
so you have to believe them

why would they lie?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:46am PT
The same thing could be said about the so called Trump/Russia
connection.

prove that the same millions have been spent, show your credible source
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:12am PT
The same thing could be said about the so called Trump/Russia
connection.

Not really. There is only one significant investigation going on, and it just started. Hard to judge it, before anything is known.

Clinton on the other hand, is generally decades old, is the product of dozens of investigation, all of which have concluded.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:32am PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:39am PT
Slow down bitches, you're clogging up the bandwidth here.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:57am PT
If Dems and RINOS shouldn't be investigating Trump
then why the hell were the Republicans investigating Hillary

Talk about witch hunts, all a bunch of nothing

anyway, the Trumpster investigators are Bushies
Mueller was W's Director of the FBI

so what does that tell you?
That there are some pretty stupid people here on ST....

There is more than enough on Trump to impeach him:
Obstruction of Justice
Abuse of Power
Owes Russia Money
emoluments clause
secret conservations with Russia
using Russian dirt on the DNC
is an as#@&%e of biblical proportions
will make right wingers heads explode when he resigns in disgrace, and then jailed

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 22, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
But but but... Russia Russia Russia! Russia! But... but... Russia!

Reminds me of the 70/80's scare tactics of the 'evil Russkies'.

The Orange one appears to becoming fully compliant now with his neocon masters which is unfortunate. Same as the old puppet and the one before that...
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
well, well....the new US President learns a life lesson that sitting in the bleachers criticizing is so much easier than actually being President

yes, after years of ripping President Obama on Afghanistan, Trump said this yesterday

“My original instinct was to pull out, and, historically, I like following my instincts,” Trump said Monday in a televised address. “But all of my life I heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the Oval Office.”

DUH
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
For those of you degenerating to personal attacks and posts without substance... I tried with the title of this thread to have it be a discussion that could generate productive ideas and be a means of finding common ground for people from different political parties and ideologies.

When the conversation degenerates into name calling and memes, then it poisons the space for cultivating common ground and just generates more crap to wade through. "You're dumb" "no you're dumb" "No you're so dumb you think I'm dumb but really you are the dumb one." "F you." "no F you. "No F you." "F you more." "Double F you." ad nauseum.

In the scheme of things this here is nothing, and I'm not even the king of that nothing, and y'all can and will do whatever you want. But just consider for a moment what is your role in shaping the dysfunction of the world around you, and if you want to see positive changes in the world, let it begin with how you interact with the world.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 22, 2017 - 01:01pm PT
Nut for Prez 2017.75!!!

anyway...your last post has more leadership quality than anything I have heard/read from our current prez.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2017 - 01:12pm PT
Thanks Craginator :) Maybe when I have less going on in life I will consider local politics.

In the mean time...

If it is not the role of our tax-payer funded government to investigate potential sources of widespread health problems, who is going to do it? Are you ok if nobody does it?

What part of the profit-motivated world is going to conduct these studies? Speculative lawyers looking to start class-action lawsuits and extract money from the corporations that will dissolve and reform if they are somehow found liable?

Interior Dept. halts study into Appalachian mining technique's likely health hazards
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/22/politics/appalachian-coal-mining-health-study/index.html
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 22, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
The Orange one appears to becoming fully compliant now with his neocon masters which is unfortunate. Same as the old puppet and the one before that...

He finally got that special screening of the Zapruder Film.

If Trump hadn't been born a rich boy he'd be just another third rate real estate shyster, no doubt living out of his car half the time.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:03pm PT


that you, honey boo boo?
c wilmot

climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:08pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

It's a fact
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
Mo bettah faqkz!

On July 27, 29, and 30, 1974, the Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Nixon, for obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and contempt of Congress, and reported those articles to the House of Representatives.

The impeachment process of Bill Clinton was initiated by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, against Bill Clinton, the 42nd President of the United States, on two charges, one of perjury and one of obstruction of justice.

...“the Supreme Court has concluded that ‘endeavor’ is broader than ‘attempt’” — and quotes the court stating that in the statute it means “any effort or essay to accomplish the evil purpose that the section was enacted to prevent.” Therefore, says the Justice Department, “it follows that an endeavor to obstruct justice need not be successful to be criminal.”
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
The mean IQ is 100
so there are a lot of folks way below that number
and they all support Trump for some reason

He's one of them
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
His casinos were a disaster

Actually, they were quite successful; just not as casinos. According to those in the know, the casinos(and the real estate) were/are
intended as money laundering ops, which they have done fairly well on.

zBrown, I have not heard of that
Sources, in the know, report that Muller has Trump Models as one aspect of the investigation. It is ALL tied together, the laundering, the model exploitation and the collusion.

Re: Trump Models. Reports are that the company was falsifying the ages of women coming in from Eastern Europe. Not only were they forced to live in barracks-like conditions in a Lower East Side basement(and have charges for rent deducted from earnings), but they were, indeed, forced into prostitution.

Melania worked in the US as a "model" before her visa was cleared, which is not legal. She was also introduced to Trump by a Russian mafia dude who is also ted to the casino money laundering.

This is all "old news" if you are following @TrueFactsStated, @20Committee and @LousieMensch on Twitter. These folks are not "nobodies." They are all people with vetted, and well known, professional identities.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
actually, Mr Trump's record in the Casino business has been one failure after another

Trump Entertainment Resorts and its predecessors have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection four times, in 1991, following construction of the $1-billion Trump Taj Mahal, and in 2004, 2009 and 2014.

*The casino group filed for bankruptcy again in February 2009,[26][27] owing $1.2 billion. Two sets of debt holders eventually proposed reorganization plans for the group in U.S. bankruptcy court.


In September 2014, Trump Entertainment Resorts filed again for bankruptcy,[35][36]

On October 10, 2016 the Trump Taj Mahal closed for the final time. Trump Entertainment will remain operating to deal with the transfer of some points on the Trump One card account.[41] The Trump Taj website is empty.[42]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Entertainment_Resorts
Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
In 214 days, President Trump has made 1057 false and misleading claims

ongoing record of Mr Trump's lies just since taking office

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/?tid=a_inl-amp&utm_term=.cb8f689be545
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
Cosmic - IF it were to come to pass that DT is found guilty of human trafficking, what would be your response? Would that be the straw that finally had you accepting that he is a charlatan? Or would you continue to believe he was being railroaded by fake news and a victim of conspiracy?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 22, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
I would pick B also....

So it was Russia

Now its Race

Next is Sex...

Norton

Social climber
Aug 22, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
^^^ both of them, pretty shockingly ignorant, eh Happygirl ?

but like the leader they "adore" said - "I can shoot someone on 3rd avenue and would not lose any supporters"

think about that
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Aug 22, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
hey. bro, how would pisssonus drupmf do for us on thos proj? I hav some ideas. including cement time capsules that'll outlast brevedigits dickface
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
Dingus, I think you're pretty close to the mark. But maybe there is a way to explain it- I think the best models might be something like cellular automata theory with a small set of defined cell types (personalities) and defined behaviors for interaction with neighbor cells which represent relationships. Maybe some modification instead of just a 2D plane or a 3D surface on which the cells are bound, maybe include separate tiers of hierarchy to introduce senior/subordinate positions with different neighbor rules depending on the type of cell (personality).

That whole thing playing out with detectable repeating patterns or structures, but with a basically chaotic appearance... that to me sums up the model:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton

I suspect that a math model exploring human interactions and relationships and power struggles might have far reaching applicability to human history, and an interesting way to conceive of the whole shebang, but it might be challenging to extract the patterns and insights for application to specific case predictive power. But if I was a grad student looking for a project, this would intrigue me.

But maybe at the age of being a grad student though, a person hasn't seen enough repeating patterns of personality types and organizations and hasn't followed enough news cycles to have news and history intertwine, then all this stuff is off the radar screen.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Aug 22, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclical_theory
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
I loved George Carlin's stuff....

"It's a great big club, and you ain't in it."

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 22, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
I am somewhat amazed by Trump's Afghanistan policy.

A complete about face from his campaign advocacy.

I have been puzzled by why we have not made progress in 16 years. We keep sending in trainers, to train their military, and it keeps not working. Why not?

I'm convinced that it is because of the culture of corruption.

The only way to change that, is to change the culture (nation building).
....and Trump has sworn off of that endeavor.

So Trump will fail, just as Obama failed, and GW Bush failed.....like the Russians failed. Like the next President will fail.

I was impressed by a journalist asking a military strategist how long this will take, responding "how long have we been in Korea"

Trump will throw away more billions and billions, on a lost cause that will only get our servicemen killed. He has been suckered himself, by the argument that "we can't give up now, and lose every thing that we've invested, a trillion dollars, and thousands of soldiers!"

Exactly the same argument used by the loser at the craps table.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:52pm PT

The mistake is thinking anyone is in charge, ever.

Wish that were true! Then this regrets wouldn't feel so heavy
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2017 - 10:58pm PT

So Trump will fail, just as Obama failed, and GW Bush failed.....like the Russians failed. Like the next President will fail.

Do you really think sending our kids in to kill their kids is gunna change anything other than the architecture?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 23, 2017 - 05:22am PT
I have been puzzled by why we have not made progress in 16 years. We keep sending in trainers, to train their military, and it keeps not working. Why not?

The real people that run the show (we all pay tickets to support) run the massive MIC and the parasitic institutions that fund them.

For them to exist requires continuous murder on a grand scale.

Killary was part of that murder machine, now the Orange One appears to be announcing his part as a well oiled cog in the same thing.

The opium crops we have US marines guarding have something to do with it in Afghanistan. Perhaps it's a way to fund other "off the budget" bloodsports as well... Don't know but plenty of other nations have fallen into the same trap.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 07:00am PT
My mind changed quite readily over Bill Clinton, when it came out he was fooling around with women in ways which seemed to go against his marriage vows, and also which go against responsible ideals, with the Lewinski behavior). While I had to agree with those who felt the behaviors probably bore no impact on his ability as president, I lost any respect I held for him as a man. I still cringe when I see him on video clips. I don't understand how a person who hods respect for their partner treats them with the disregard required to be unfaithful. Have the courage to hold the discussion BEFORE you get into the relationship, and let it be a TRUE agreement, and not one accepting it under duress while the other tells themself the lie that their partner thinks it is okay.

As for the "first Russia, then race, now sex," the Russia thing ain't over. Look at the timeline required to deal with Watergate. This investigation is quite a bit further down the road. Word is that the NYAG is managing it with a "Classic Mafia Family Takedown" strategy, and HAS gotten the link-ups required to prove the Collusion/Money Laundering/Connection directly to DT. So far as I can tell, the ONLY thing that is going to stop the "emperor" for being exposed in his naked lack of glory will be if the Russians have compromising materials on people who seem not be so much as breaking a sweat as they proceed. I am pretty sure if I had anything in my background that I would be worried about, I would have found a way to run as far away as possible. NYAG and Muller seem pretty secure in their stances.

skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 23, 2017 - 08:17am PT
I thought it was time for a little blast to the past, a little trip down memory lane if you will.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 23, 2017 - 09:57am PT
I think Adams was describing this choice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=440l8poSQiA

zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 10:20am PT
Building cars, killing fields. The same levers, just different connections, eh?


Mr. McNamara served as Secretary of Defense from 1961 to 1968 and pushed so hard for deeper American military involvement in 1964 and 1965 that the conflict in Southeast Asia became known as "McNamara's War."

...

"I want to put Vietnam in context," he writes, because he believes that Vietnam helped make the American people cynical about their Government and because "it is cynicism that makes Americans reluctant to support their leaders in the actions necessary to confront and solve our problems at home and abroad."

...

He lists "11 major causes for our disaster in Vietnam," including misjudging the capacity of North Vietnam, underrating nationalism as a force in the world, failing to recognize the limitations of high-tech equipment, failing to level with Congress and the American public and, crucially, poor organization. Like Winston Churchill in World War II, he says, Johnson needed a war cabinet.



Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 11:19am PT
CooCoo #45 Tweeted that the turnout at Phoenix was 15K. Said in his speech that the Secret Service told him there were very few protestors outside.....


Yet the space has a Legal Capacity of only 5,000. And I know f at least one Supertopian who was in Phoenix and protesting. The person posted that prtesters were being overcome with teargas.

Jeez.....why would police need teargas for so "very few?'

If only his propensity for being a compulsive liar were the worst of his qualities.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 23, 2017 - 11:49am PT
My mind changed quite readily over Bill Clinton, when it came out he was fooling around with women in ways which seemed to go against his marriage vows, and also which go against responsible ideals, with the Lewinski behavior). While I had to agree with those who felt the behaviors probably bore no impact on his ability as president, I lost any respect I held for him as a man. I still cringe when I see him on video clips. I don't understand how a person who hods respect for their partner treats them with the disregard required to be unfaithful. Have the courage to hold the discussion BEFORE you get into the relationship, and let it be a TRUE agreement, and not one accepting it under duress while the other tells themself the lie that their partner thinks it is okay.

I figured fooling around is mostly between that person and their spouse. I don't really care about politicians private lives, in general. Now if you have some politician that goes on and on about family values and marriage being between a man and a woman, and they get caught having a gay affair, sure they should be blasted for it.

I would much rather have a politician that acted, in office, in a way that I liked and that I had zero respect for, than a politician that I had a lot of respect for but was either ineffective in office or pursued policies that I disagreed with.

I ain't looking for a fishing buddy either.

My biggest general gripe about both Clintons is the level of financial sleaze. I use the term sleaze instead of corruption, because it isn't clear they did anything illegal. But accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Goldman Sax for a private speech, yeah that is sleazy.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Goldman Sax for a private speech

This was one of the MOST effective misinformation points disseminated during the 2016 campaign. It was THE point that turned so many registered Democrats to Bernie Sanders. In my family, at least 2 of my six surviving siblings supported Sanders over Clinton and specifically cited these exorbitant speaking fees as their motivating reason.

Misinformation, you ask? Yes, it was misinformation. The point was framed to infer that Clinton gave "more" than a speech for those fees.

Yet the payment is a COMMON fee for people at the level Hillary Clinton was/is.

Here's list, from 2012, of the 10 top paid speakers. http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world

Guess who was the highest paid? None other than(barf) Donald Trump. Even Sarah Palin made $100,000 and up for speaking.


This campaign about Hillary and her speeches was the "fake news" that inspired Trump to steal the phrase. AND, disinformation is a well-used political tactic, and one used extensively by the good old USSR, now Russia.

Yet we average folks, for whom a quarter million dollar speaking fee seems absolutely ludicrous, because we just did.not.know. that it is "normal" for some circles, believed Hillary was guilty of something untoward.



WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
The criminal ripoff artists Goldman Sax and all their criminal speakers can all go to fuking hell ....
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 23, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
It was more about who paid the fees to Clinton, giving private speeches to the Wall Street boys just doesn't look good.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
It was more about who paid the fees to Clinton

Was it? Really?

So, would you think poorly of Tom Brokaw because GS paid him to speak? Deepak Chopra? Misty Copeland(primary dancer for the American Ballet Theatre)? Former First Lady Laura Bush?

Because each of those people was paid by Goldman Sachs to speak. http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/talks-at-gs/speaker-list.html

It's okay to admit that when those claims about Clinton hit our newsfeeds, day after day after day, propelled to the top of "trending" lists by an army of bots(yes, this WAS how it was done, and guess whose presidential campaign the the fees, which are very MUCH in the range of what GS paid Clinton to speak) that paid for those bots point to?), that we were incensed. I was! Yes, I was....until I took the small amount of time required to learn that the speaking engagements were for the par for just about anyone on the speaking circuit.

Like I said - the misinformation campaign was effective. And if we DON'T get to the bottom of it and get not only Trump, but every other traitor who worked against the will of We, the People, to spin the 2016 election, it is going to happen again.

While people whine and cry about "fake news and Russia," our well-being as a country is being pulled out from under us like a tablecloth by the magician. Civil violence is only a piece of the game. Crying for "jobs?" What the F we gonna do when there ain't NO job, NO HOW, because our entire economic floorplan has been gutted? You think it CAN'T happen here? Let it happen and we will see, just how willing the rest of the world is to take in the tired and huddled masses of US refugees scurrying to other shores in the hope for a chance - just a chance - to survive.

Shame. Shame on us all, on so many levels.


Edit: We ARE at war, but the war in Afghanistan is just one small front on a pull for the redirection of power. While I see no REAL reason why I should be so lucky to be in the US reaping a fairly nice way of life, when people no less deserving of the same suffer, I sure as HELL don't want to live in this place when our population is in a widespread panic over being able to feed their children when the stores are empty. You think that cannot happen? It can, and it WILL, if we don't pull our heads out of our behinds and fight for our freedom now. You think the average German "saw it coming," the concentration camps, the horror? You think that, once the writing was on the walls, the average German didn't go with the flow because they had to survive? True, this is "not the same thing", but in the long view....it is pretty much exactly the same thing.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
Getting into the minutiae of healthcare policy might be a fun distraction, but does seem like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic at the moment.

I have to acknowledge the soundness of that argument.

Identity politics can't be ignored. It spreads like rot and erodes the foundations required for making decisions and taking action on policy alternatives. More than President Trump and all the consequences of his actions or inactions that will have a lasting adverse impact on our country, I am worried about what led to us electing him and what leads so many people to still support him and his agenda.

I have long worried about the fragmenting and weakening of our educational system that would exacerbate problems of uninformed voters. But we have a bigger problem. What's the point of trying to educate people in the rational domain if we don't address the emotional triggers that override our capacity to act and make decisions using our rational faculties? How do we release people from fear and anger? These can be lifetime tasks for people who want to make those changes. How do we deal with people who don't perceive or won't accept that there are problems, and will fight tooth and nail against facing them?

Dysfunctional fear-based politics requires a fear and/or anger-based constituency. As long as parents are the primary sources that inform our children's emotional development, especially in the crucial early years, the fears embedded in our society will remain and be passed from generation to generation. Change in this realm is hard, almost inconceivable at a societal level.

Public service announcements and laws created by open minds trying to force the behavior of closed minds will never work. It just pushes the closed minds into hiding behind masks of politeness and social acceptability, waiting like a virus for a weakness in our country before coming out.

The only real hope is to break the cycle of inheritance by creating a larger role for society in the emotional education of our children. Where the rubber hits the road is our school system. And really, it should be happening during the childhood years that are more impactful, within a public preschool and daycare system. You want to solve prison crowding and reduce crime? Invest in a generation of public daycare and preschool and support programs through the end of high school, with emotional development programs all along the way.

And our present administration, and indeed the whole movement that brought this administration into power, is focused on destroying the societal tools to improve the emotional health of our children. Fragmenting our education system, removing national standards and programs, puts the power back in the hands of emotionally stunted parents to enforce their dysfunction on the next generation by choosing a school and social environment that promotes a fear or anger-based world view while shielding children from the education that would help them overcome these things.


I can imagine the gasps of horror among many people, who would find this prescription quite frightening or naive or pie-in-the-sky or whatever. Anything but possible. There are certain to be societal overreaches and over-corrections on the path to solving these problems, but in the long run for our society, I think these overreaches will be correctable. And what is the alternative?

Some people think that anything else would be tolerable or preferable to a dystopia of society norms overruling parental values in raising children- beyond the nanny state! For me, I disagree because we can see around us the consequences of NOT letting our society contribute to the emotional early education of children. Perpetual war and violence. Hate. Identity politics. Tolerance of thuggery, name-calling, ugliness, 1000 people trying to destroy and find fault for every 1 person trying to create or find a solution. Or at least a mass of fearful sheep hiding behind indifference and detachment, claiming to be apart from the problems while actively choosing to not be part of the solutions.

We need a strong nation projecting a strong set of national values, and participating as a peer among strong nations, showing the leadership and modeling the behaviors at an international level that represent how we want the world to be. That includes the balance of humility to be a peer rather than a ruler of the world, but also to have the strength and integrity and boundaries to enforce our values in all of our relationships.

Most people react to the world the way it is and use it to justify their reactions. Leaders create the world they want to be a part of.

And on that note, I am going back to my work, automating away some more jobs.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 23, 2017 - 01:13pm PT

Yet the payment is a COMMON fee for people at the level Hillary Clinton was/is.

Here's list, from 2012, of the 10 top paid speakers. http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world

How is a "private" speach to Goldman a public speech? We don't even know if she gave a speech.

And the Clinton's by no means have a monopoly on sleazy finances. But I don't recall Obama having done anything on that level while he was still a potential candidate. Obama is no longer a potential candidate because he is not going to run for office again. Hillary got those fat fees when it was clear she was going to run for the presidency.

Guess who was the highest paid? None other than(barf) Donald Trump.

As far as Trump goes: If I was going to make a list of reasons why he should never have been elected POTUS, but I could only have 100 entries, I'm not sure there would even be room for financial misconduct, let alone fees from speeches...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 23, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
There was a multi-billion dollar decades long smear campaign against Hillary that was effective on all parties

If you are still duped by it you make a great mark for the next big money disinformation scam

and you will probably be duped the next election cycle into questioning your vote for a Dem
It's tough on the Dems when they are up against pure evil that will cheat and lie about everything for your vote

everything that Hillary did that was questionable, Trump did it 10 million times worse, so why is Trump president?
because of duped idiots that voted for him and were swayed by the massive amount Republican lies
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 23, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
Happy, you keep glossing over the 'private' part. Your last list was public speeches for which there is video.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 23, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
The criminal ripoff artists Goldman Sax and all their criminal speakers can all go to fuking hell ....

Why? That's where they come from.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
Hilary Clinton made a YUGE mistake by setting up a private email server at home
and no matter how secured conducting government business through it

Another mistake was accepting large private speaking fees

Could eliminating just these two have been enough to get her to 270 Electoral Votes?

We will never know but at least Trump would have had far less ammunition

Private polling shows that millions of Clinton voters simply stayed home and did not bother to vote as the polls showed her with a small but solid 2-3% lead over The Donald in the days right before Nov 8.

For the Democrats to come in from wondering in the desert and retake congressional majorities they will need a "wave vote", an outpouring of public anger similar to the wave against George Bush for the Iraq invasion that propelled the Dems to majorities in both the House and Senate and put Obama into the WH two years after 2008

There are more people who identify as Dems than Repubs and generally more independent voters tend to vote Democrat, but the difference is turnout, the Republicans get their people to actually vote far better than the Dems do with their people. Emotion, talk radio hate speech, motivate Republicans far better than Democrats talking public policy issue details. The Dems have to learn to get mean.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 23, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
NutAgain!
The only real hope is to break the cycle of inheritance by creating a larger role for society in the emotional education of our children. Where the rubber hits the road is our school system. And really, it should be happening during the childhood years that are more impactful, within a public preschool and daycare system.
...
I can imagine the gasps of horror among many people, who would find this prescription quite frightening or naive or pie-in-the-sky or whatever. Anything but possible. There are certain to be societal overreaches and over-corrections on the path to solving these problems, but in the long run for our society, I think these overreaches will be correctable. And what is the alternative?

Some people think that anything else would be tolerable or preferable to a dystopia of society norms overruling parental values in raising children- beyond the nanny state! For me, I disagree because we can see around us the consequences of NOT letting our society contribute to the emotional early education of children.
NutAgain!, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin would have been proud of you.

Please fo not forget to substitute "society" with "government" in the above passage.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 23, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
The criminal ripoff artists Goldman Sax and all their criminal speakers can all go to fuking hell ....

Why? That's where they come from.

We have a winner! Time to start a new thread, fear has put this one in a nutshell.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
Bernie Sanders voters helped Trump become President


Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.


*According to the analysis of the 2016 Cooperative Congressional Election Survey, fewer than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders, an independent, in the Democratic primary did the same for Clinton when she faced off against Trump a few months later. What’s more, 12 percent of those who backed Sanders actually cast a vote for Trump.


*The impact of those votes was significant. In each of the three states that ultimately swung the election for Trump—Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania—Trump’s margin of victory over Clinton was smaller than the number of Sanders voters who gave him their vote.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 23, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
Yet the payment is a COMMON fee for people at the level Hillary Clinton was/is.

Here's list, from 2012, of the 10 top paid speakers. http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world

How is a "private" speach to Goldman a public speech? We don't even know if she gave a speech.


August, you are misusing the term "public speaker", to mean that a person gives a speech to the public.

It does not.

It means that the person is giving a speech to a live audience, the setting is not the issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_speaking

Were you aware that a word can have a different meaning in different contexts?

One that I always find particularly stupid, is when I am describe as "a practicing physician", that that means that I'm not a real physician, but just practicing to become one. Ahem.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 23, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
I would rather they fire the whole bunch of old f*#ks who think the old ways are the only ways, and chart a new course, from the middle.

I think the whole "Drain the swamp narrative" resonated with a lot of people who thought just that. Even though a lot of The Orange One's idea's were stupid (i.e. the Wall), he seemed to be the lesser weevil.

One of the most effective means of control is to split the animals in your pasture into different groups along arbitrary fence lines. Donkeys in one pen and Elephants in another. You can then paint some red and some blue even. Not only is this an effective way to keep things tidy, the animals will actually fight each other rather than you. Even if some wander out of the pen, most actually want to be led back to be part of the herd again.

Human nature I'm afraid... hard to change that.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 23, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
I would rather they fire the whole bunch of old f*#ks who think the old ways are the only ways, and chart a new course, from the middle.

Don't get mean. Don't further polarize. A concerted move to the middle, led and propelled by the generations that will be most affected by the decisions of those elected, that's what I'd like to see. Cooperation not anger. Compromise, not battle. Effective leadership for the country, and to hell with the party platform and leadership.

That's what a lot of us want.

DMT


Dingus.... agree 100%...so you get it.

Still waiting for what I call the "shift" to occur .... once the outraged democrats get over all the butt hurt... I think that they can work with our President because you can clearly see that he is getting pretty tired of WORKING with republican losers like McConnel and Ryan...
All that is required is for like 26 Dem senators and 30 republican senators to say F-off to the "LEADERS" who threaten them with PARTY punishment and Vola... we will have a middle of the road NEW PARTY.



And NUT... you have some sick thoughts about children and parents and the role of Government. You do make Mao and Jo Stalin look like moderates.

EDIT: Maybe it's my reading comprehension I will need to re-read and diagram the sentences so I can get the full gist of what your trying to say.... being at work, in a hectic environment... I sort of speed read.



Norton

Social climber
Aug 23, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
All that is required is for like 26 Dem senators and 30 republican senators to say F-off to the "LEADERS" who threaten them with PARTY punishment and Vola... we will have a middle of the road NEW PARTY.

astoundingly naive and sophomoric statement
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 23, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
You are being a semantic twit, Ken. The discussion was about giving a speech to a private audience for which no video or transcripts are released, versus a 'public' speech where video or transcripts are available to the public.

Were you aware that a word can have a different meaning in different contexts?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 23, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
"Well maybe the democratic machine will listen to them next time?

Nah.

DMT"



And just maybe the director of the FBI won't come out with a statement 11 days before the election that swings it to a person like Trump.

Hillary lead was pretty substantial in OH, MI and PA before Comey statement. She also won the general election by close to 3 million votes.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 23, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
If the old democratic party continues the politics of the 70s,

The politics of the '70s weren't too bad. It's the politics of the '90s and the Democratic Leadership Council which swung the party into the hands of corporate America.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Aug 23, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
no seriously crankster, hillary was electable prior to the Benghazi 'ysteria.

Haw mothaf*#kin haw.



I'mabout done with Democraticracital votin' after that Schultz-ness in Florida. Tell me why to vote Blue insteada plurple [sic]



I think Zappa Z. Dog might do better even without Dem Machine interference to exclude poplear candidatz like Bernard. And yet, one smallows the partylines.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 23, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
In foresight's retrospect, if only Hillary had turned around and called little Donnie a creep, she would have won! In retrospect's foresight, no way Trump could win that election!

We humans have it all figured out. It's just that we're each working on our own problem, and we never get to check our answer against the complete results.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 23, 2017 - 11:28pm PT
Backup you Creep!....BobDuh

thu Democrat "party" is dead. You ANTIFA haters are circling the bowl.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 12:50am PT
Instead of erecting statues to traitors, how about this guy:

On 7 July 1944, Army Captain Ben L. Salomon, the battalion surgeon of 2nd Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment, 27th Infantry Division aided the evacuation of wounded soldiers.

After defending his unarmed patients from four Japanese soldiers, he manned a machine gun post and effectively repelled numerous enemy forces to enable the evacuation of wounded personnel.

When his body was recovered after the battle, 98 dead Japanese soldiers were found in front of his position. For gallantry in battle, Captain Ben L. Salomon was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor in May 2002.[23] Salomon was the third Jewish service member to be awarded the Medal of Honor during World War II.


Or this guy:

On 7 July, Private Thomas A. Baker and his comrades from the 1st Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment, came under attack by a large Japanese force.

Although seriously wounded early in the attack, he refused to be evacuated and continued to fight in the close-range battle until running out of ammunition.

When a comrade was wounded while trying to carry him to safety, Baker insisted that he be left behind. At his request, his comrades left him propped against a tree and gave him a pistol, which had eight bullets remaining.

When American forces retook the position, they found the pistol, now empty, and eight dead Japanese soldiers around Baker's body.

Baker was posthumously promoted to sergeant and, on 9 May 1945, awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions throughout the battle for Saipan.[21] He was buried at Gerald B. H. Solomon Saratoga National Cemetery in Schuylerville, New York.[22]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 12:59am PT
You are being a semantic twit, Ken. The discussion was about giving a speech to a private audience for which no video or transcripts are released, versus a 'public' speech where video or transcripts are available to the public.

Were you aware that a word can have a different meaning in different contexts?

Perfect example of "context", when someone is advocated to not be a public speaker, when they speak to a live private audience. You can try to change the english definition of a word, but you have supplied no references that support you, as I did.

Most public speakers make the majority of their living doing exactly this kind of work.

Also an example of someone pontificating about something they know nothing about, whereas I do a lot of this work (although not at that level)
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Aug 24, 2017 - 05:56am PT
Ken M:
Instead of erecting statues to traitors, how about this guy:
Ken M, I am confused about people who want to bring down statues of all traitors.


Norton:
... yes by choosing to "secede" ... that does make them "traitors"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Aug 24, 2017 - 06:51am PT
From NPR:

But when asked whether Confederate statues should remain as a historical symbol or be removed because they're offensive to some people, 62 percent say they should remain; just 27 percent said they should go.

African-Americans are divided on the question — but a plurality agree they should stay, 44 percent to 40 percent. Two-thirds of whites and Latinos believe the statues should remain as well.

One of the most dramatic monuments to the Confederacy is called Stone Mountain, in northern Georgia. It's sort of a Confederate Mount Rushmore, with Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis carved into a mountainside.

Andrew Young, a former mayor of Atlanta and lifelong African-American civil rights activist, says the memorial should stay. Young served as a congressman from Georgia and ambassador to the United Nations. He was with Martin Luther King Jr. the day he was assassinated.

"That is a tremendous carving. And I don't want to see that destroyed. I don't care who it is," he says.

This whole drama over statue removal is leftwing victimology in the extreme. They just need something to bitch about.

Five years ago, this was a non-issue. Now, we have a small (but noisy) portion of the population irate over over a previously irrelevant issue.

What's going to sate these snowflakes? Destruction of any recognition of anyone who owned slaves? Is this how we move on?
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Stick to it Ken. Ridiculous.

If a public speech can only mean 'speaking to a live audience' then what's a private speech? Speaking to a dead audience?

Sheesh.


In order to not confuse you next time, we'll say public public speech and private public speech. Better?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:40am PT
Regarding those that couldn't bring their sacred consciences to vote for an imperfect candidate, "how's it going, eh" as we canucks put it when we choose to mock.

monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:47am PT
How it going for you to ignore the side of the party that got 45% of the electable delegates.

Yay, we got Timmy Kaine for VP!
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 08:00am PT
Stalker-perv and you think he's not a pimp?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

What happens to something diseased at the root.



Chuck Grassley will order committee vote on releasing testimony on Trump dossier
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 24, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Quite a dilemma. There would be no reforms if Clinton won as indicated by her VP choice. Too bad she treated the primary as winner take all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-vice-president_us_576d761ee4b0dbb1bbba7942

Thirty-nine percent of voters nationwide said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic ticket if Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders were on it, according to a new poll from Monmouth University.

Among undecided voters, a whopping 50 percent said they would be more likely to support the Democrats if it’s a Clinton-Sanders ticket.

This is what we get with two party systems.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 09:12am PT
OK, so assume that the Clinton/Sanders ticket would have won

so what?

the House would still be firmly in the Republicans hands

very very doubtful the Dems would have won a majority in the Senate now 52-48

the Dems would not be able to get any legislation passed and with the Repubs in control of the Senate would not be able to confirm SC appointments

a Mexican standoff, just like the last 6 years of the Obama Administration

on the one hand the public says they want positive legislation passed and both parties working together, on the other hand the public votes divided government
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:00am PT
At this juncture I would choose to no longer blame the electorate for installing the potential despot Trump, or those who voted for him as a protest vote against Clinton when they would rather have voted for Sanders, and his core base are not likely to ever leave him, for history will likely judge them harshly enough in time. Though they might at present find themselves triumphant, it is obvious to me that there is something inherently wrong with their thinking.

I choose to lay the primary responsibility on the repugnant and arrogant Trump, who has proven from the outset of his entire public career to be morally despicable. It is perfectly obvious what type of person he to those who have paid attention to what he has done for the last 50 years, studied his many crooked business dealings, been aware of his scandalous indiscretions, and noted his failed business enterprises.

My impression is that he is what he has always been; a diabolical and mentally disturbed bully, an erratic criminal who has painted himself in patriotic colors, who has colluded with republicans in Congress and many others in order to elevate himself to the pinnacle of political and military power.

Trump bought into and exacerbated the birther conspiracy theory during Obama's presidency and Trump chose to run for office. Trump blamed, denigrated, vilified, and rallied conservative America against our own immigrant heritage, and Trump himself is primarily to blame for what turmoil our nation must endure.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:09am PT
a diabolical and mentally disturbed bully,

Oh stop... he's a garden variety narcissistic prick with slightly above average intelligence and some severe insecurities that lead to him lashing out like an idiot at times. His type are a dime a dozen, but hardly diabolical.

Although he's now falling in line under people who really ARE evil.

Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:38am PT
Yeah, diabolical is pushing it a bit.
I'll stick with saying he's a maniacal and mentally disturbed bully though.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:38am PT
Ken M, I am confused about people who want to bring down statues of all traitors.

You left out .....to the United States. Where we live. Under whose laws we prosper.

Let Great Britain deal with who they think traitors were to their regime. Gandhi, I imagine.

Should we prohibit statues to Stalin's opponents? Let Putin deal with that.

What's the confusion?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:40am PT
If a public speech can only mean 'speaking to a live audience' then what's a private speech?

Public speaking. Don't you own a dictionary? I know you own a computer. Don't be lazy, you can spell G-o-o-g-l-e
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:41am PT
Looks like I'll be taking down the statue of myself cutting class in high school to go smoke weed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:47am PT
The leadership made it clear they would not compromise to bring Sanders supporters into the fold.

You should quit revising history, DMT The Dems took on a series of Bernie's most coveted positions. Free college tuition, for one.

How do I know? Because Bernie held his endorsement until she had agreed to adopt a sufficient amount of his agenda.

Bernie endorsed Hillary.

So one either admires and trusts the judgement of Bernie, and do as he recommendeds, or one ultimately doesn't, and votes for Jill Stein, et. al.

And bow to one's President, DT
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:49am PT
FWIW in our last Canadian federal election the centre and a sizable chunk of the left coalesced to vote for the liberal party with the common shared goal of ousting a venal prime minister (harper) and his politics of division. It worked.

Yeah but stoopid Americans are dumber than stupide Canadians.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:56am PT

August, you are misusing the term "public speaker", to mean that a person gives a speech to the public.

It does not.

It means that the person is giving a speech to a live audience, the setting is not the issue.

Sure, that was a bit of sarcasm/trolling. But the real point, I don't believe that Goldman Sax cared one whit what she actually said in that speech. They were doing no more, in my opinion, than handing a $200,000+ check (and this was to Hillary, not her campaign, right?) to someone who they though had good odds of being the next POTUS.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 10:56am PT
OK, so assume that the Clinton/Sanders ticket would have won

so what?

the House would still be firmly in the Republicans hands

very very doubtful the Dems would have won a majority in the Senate now 52-48

the Dems would not be able to get any legislation passed and with the Repubs in control of the Senate would not be able to confirm SC appointments

a Mexican standoff, just like the last 6 years of the Obama Administration

Gorsuch would be on the Supreme Court, someone suggested by the Repubs as a compromise candidate, and squarely middle of the road without partisan bias.

over 100 presidential declarations not signed. The LGBT community would not be in fear, nor would the Jewish community (and they are).

We would likely not be looking at an infinite expansion of the Afghan war, but a viable end-game.

We would likely be looking at economic policies that would be working to ensure that the low unemployment rate would be translating into higher wages.

We would likely be looking at programs to actually help the residents of the Coal Belt into modern jobs, instead of enticing them with Coal, which is not going to happen.

We would likely be looking at America as the leader of the world, instead of a laughing stock. We would actually be great, instead of a vassal to Russia.

We would actually HAVE a foreign policy, an economic policy, and the gov't would not be giving support to the KKK and Nazis.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:01am PT
Sure, that was a bit of sarcasm/trolling. But the real point, I don't believe that Goldman Sax cared one whit what she actually said in that speech. They were doing no more, in my opinion, than handing a $200,000+ check (and this was to Hillary, not her campaign, right?) to someone who they though had good odds of being the next POTUS.

EXACTLY the sort of thing that virtually every candidate has done for the last 50 years. Like Reagan going to Japan for paydays.

So why do you object to Hillary doing so? What is it about her that is different than the other candidates? I've not seen you object one twit to Trump doing so.

Perhaps you are just not ready for a woman in office? Just be honest, instead of conniving.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:05am PT
Florida prepares to execute a death-row inmate for the first time in a year-and-a-half

The lethal injection set for this evening is believed to be the first time in the modern era that Florida intends to execute a white person convicted of killing a black person.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:06am PT
Its a failure of leadership, full stop.

Yes, on Bernie's part - it was the combined character assassination of both the right and Bernie's campaign that elected trump. Bernie did such a good job of it his own base wouldn't follow his lead endorsing Hillary by the time he was done.

To every ignorant progressive who didn't vote or didn't vote for Hillary I have only one message - f*#k you, you are personally responsible for the fallout of the election. And first and foremost in that fallout is the loss of the Supreme Court which will now stymie the progressive agenda for the next three decades even if the presidency, house and senate are regained. Well done as#@&%es.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:36am PT
Maybe Trump is so nuts that Congress will have to work together to create veto proof majorities on legislation. Like negotiate and make deals and stuff. Hope springs eternal!
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:43am PT
To every ignorant progressive who didn't vote or didn't vote for Hillary I have only one message - f*#k you, you are personally responsible for the fallout of the election. And first and foremost in that fallout is the loss of the Supreme Court which will now stymie the progressive agenda for the next three decades even if the presidency, house and senate are regained. Well done as#@&%es.

I could've said that, but it's hard for me to point the middle finger at my fellow (edit) progressives for not voting for Hillary when Bernie didn't get the nomination, when my biggest civic contribution has only been at the ballot box, or only as a neighborhood level activist. I guess I only voted for Hillary knowing that Bernie didn't stand a shot against the Party machine. There are some other factors as well, but Hillary was the lesser of two evils, Trump being not only evil, but mired in his own stench.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
In The War Against ISIS, Trump Is Already Responsible For More Civilian Deaths Than Obama

oh how honey boo boo criticized Obama for civilian deaths.....

More than half of all civilian deaths in the war against ISIS have occurred in the 7 months since Donald Trump was inaugurated.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 01:09pm PT
So why do you object to Hillary doing so? What is it about her that is different than the other candidates?

People accept a lot of things from men that they cannot bear to when it is a woman doing that thing.

Edit: Word on the Twittersphere is that McConnell has had his fill of Trump and is ready to do what has to be done to rid the WH of the current infestation.

And meanwhile, the RICO investigation is getting pretty hot. I have to wonder if they aren't just letting DT/DTJr/ET/IT and JK stew in their own poop for a while. They have to know every move they are making is under scrutiny. It must be rather uncomfortble, knowing you entire empire is about to tumble and that no amount of lawyering is going to save you from at least some prison time and that when you come out, you'll be lucky indeed if there is a single off-shore account that hasn't been completely plundered.

I for one, with to see just one night in prison for DTSr. One night, and then if he dies of shame, so be it. As for the second generation(or third, when you realize DT's father laid the groundwork), I will wait and see what their actual culpability has been. But if they are found guilty(and it looks like they will be), then I hope their prison terms are relatively short. I would like to see them have to live like average people do.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 24, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
Sure, that was a bit of sarcasm/trolling. But the real point, I don't believe that Goldman Sax cared one whit what she actually said in that speech. They were doing no more, in my opinion, than handing a $200,000+ check (and this was to Hillary, not her campaign, right?) to someone who they though had good odds of being the next POTUS.



EXACTLY the sort of thing that virtually every candidate has done for the last 50 years. Like Reagan going to Japan for paydays.

So why do you object to Hillary doing so? What is it about her that is different than the other candidates? I've not seen you object one twit to Trump doing so.

Perhaps you are just not ready for a woman in office? Just be honest, instead of conniving.

Yeah. Well I actually voted for Hillary in both the primary and the general because I thought it was the best chance of keeping the POTUS Democratic.

But I was actually sorry to see her run. Her negatives were so high I thought she could lose the general, which she in fact did. If Bernie had gotten the nomination, I think he would have lost by more. I don't know if Bernie being VP would have made a difference or not.

Lots of politicians are sleazy. But even by political standards, the Clintons are sleazier than most. Some of it, perhaps, is just they have had more opportunities that other politicians would have also taken advantage of.

Obama has never struck me as a sleazy politician. His administration had very few real scandals compared to other administrations.

Even ignoring the fake scandals that Fox news and the alt-right try to pin on Hillary, I think Hillary would have a lot of scandals. Fewer than Trump.

In the context of the lessor of two evils, between Trump and Hillary, there is no doubt, for me. But I would have really disliked a Hillary presidency.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
To every ignorant progressive who didn't vote or didn't vote for Hillary I have only one message - f*#k you, you are personally responsible for the fallout of the election. And first and foremost in that fallout is the loss of the Supreme Court which will now stymie the progressive agenda for the next three decades even if the presidency, house and senate are regained. Well done as#@&%es.

Well excuse for voting for who I thought would the best president for America.

If you want to vote for corporate shills, that's on you. Not me.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
ok this needs to be brought out into the open !

so what is "sleazy" about Hillary Clinton?

what criminal or civil laws, statutes, has she broken?

Lock her up? what for?

I voted for Hillary Clinton because she is a strong democrat who I knew would uphold those policies and values, and not because she was a so called "less of two evils"

yes of course everyone should vote for their preferred primary candidate
but when the choice came down to Trump or Clinton then yes, staying home or not voting for her was definitely a vote for Trump, but everyone was smart enough to know that
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Aug 24, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
You're unhinged, DMT, just like the President you bow to. I'm done with the likes of you. Naivete + ignorance is toxic.

Reasonable people learn from their mistakes. One of my friends was a huge Bernie supporter. We had a lot of loud debates during the primary. He recently called to apologize. He'd just read this book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33670561-the-destruction-of-hillary-clinton

Made him realize the phony crap he bought into. Stuff spewed here all the time ...corporate shill, emails, Benghazi...mindless crap.

The Destruction of Hillary Clinton is an answer to the question we’ve all been asking: How did an extraordinarily well-qualified, experienced, and admired candidate—whose victory would have been as historic as Barack Obama’s—come to be seen as a tool of the establishment, a chronic liar, and a talentless politician?

In this masterful narrative of the 2016 campaign year, Susan Bordo unpacks the right-wing assault on Clinton and her reputation, the way the left provoked the suspicion and indifference of a younger generation, and the unprecedented influence of the media.

Urgent, insightful, and engrossing, The Destruction of Hillary Clinton is an essential guide to understanding the most controversial presidential election in American history.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 24, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
"You've said you're done with me like 5 times now. Maybe this time you'll stay on the wagon, partisan."



You are like a broken record with the partisan bullsh#t, she was the better person for the job, she wasn't perfect but she was the most qualified person for that position of the one's running. Hate to break it to you but Bernie was never a democrat, never ran as one and never joined the democratic party.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
The alt-left crankloons here are brainwashed little children

No respect for others opinions or the truth

They love to paint people as creeps, facists and nazi's who don't live in their tiny little world

Crankloon is a little trusty low-life

#lowlifesdontmatter#
c wilmot

climber
Aug 24, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
Does the black clad antifa also blame Bernie for Hilary's loss?
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 24, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
Hate to break it to you but Bernie was never a democrat, never ran as one and never joined the democratic party.

But still got 45% of the electable delegates. 45% of dem primary voters didn't give a hoot about your purity standards
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
Speaking of crankalo0ns -keep an eye on the arm candy aka 3rd wife of the current treasury secretary, you know, that dude from goldmann sachs -she shows a lot of empathy for folks like DrF, cosmic et al. You folks should sleep easy to know she is out there making sacrifices for your welfare day in and day out.

Lay off the MSM loony tunes Frosty.

That's what you are focused on?? You moron

Who cares about the 3rd bimbo. Did she all of the sudden f**k up your life?

I've never said who I support yet you've already lumped me into a category that you disdain?

You are trying so harrd to be an errmerican.

Get over it.

You're a hoser...face it...take off...eah
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Like John Snow, I'm just a good guy fighting on the side of the living. F*#k those dead people! And republicans! And partisans!

Someone must be an as#@&%e, and it's definitely not me! Is it?

I'm kind of an Arya fan myself, but you be you.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
^^^
If you think it's ONLY republicans

Then YES....you are an azzhole
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 24, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
My bad.

F*#k the republicans! F*#k the democrats! F*#k the partisans! F*#k the nonpartisans! F*#k the living! F*#k the dead!

I feel like I fixed it. But f*#k me! :-)

You though, you be you. You're good.

In the choice between the center and the extremes, the center is the one true lord!

Not that I'm partisan to the center though. F*#k the partisans :-)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2017 - 11:46pm PT
It wasn't about the parties. It wasn't about who the president was. It wasn't about who you liked or didn't like for this or that reason.

It was all about the Supreme Court.

And the fact that entirely escaped progressives caught up in People magazine hysterics still simply amazes me.

You elected W in 2000 and Trump in 2016, what f*#kwad are you going to elect next time?
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 12:37am PT
f*#kwad healyje for Prez 2020.

Go back to bed you little weasel j0E

Crankloon will tuck you in.

What happens after that will remain "under the shetts"
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2017 - 06:23am PT
You're unhinged, DMT, just like the President you bow to. I'm done with the likes of you. Naivete + ignorance is toxic.

I think the people that are unhinged are the ones that vote for the lesser of two evils. Sure, Clinton would have wiped a few table scraps off the table for you, but there's still no important differences between her, Trump or any other corporate shill out there.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2017 - 07:58am PT
"No important difference." Ridiculous.

OK, name them.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:06am PT
2590 or 2591 X 0, still zero last time I checked.





Norton

Social climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:11am PT
nice troll, Gary

your postings through the years have proven you are not that dumb
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:11am PT
Way too funny Drf.

The KránkL00ns are still brainwashing themselves with everything the Washington Post, NYT, CNN and the rest of those clueless stoopid media machines spoon feed these fools .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:13am PT
Former Thai PM Yingluck Shinawatra has fled abroad, sources say, ahead of a verdict in her trial over a rice subsidy scheme.

Will Trump pardon her? Je's doin' her job

2594 X 0, yep still 0

Public service announcement. Don't get in the m_oven with your tinfoil hatz on!

Thanks in advance.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:16am PT
nice troll, Gary

your postings through the years have proven you are not that dumb

Hi, Norton. Not trolling. IMO, there are no differences of real substance between the Demopublicans and Republicrats. As someone a lot smarter than me has noted, the United States doesn't have politics, it has elections.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:33am PT
there are no differences of real substance between the Demopublicans and Republicrats

I guess public lands and civil rights don't matter in your analysis? I do agree that there are a lot of similarities but on the 2 issues listed above there is some real substance in difference, IMO.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:32am PT
there are no differences of real substance between the Demopublicans and Republicrats

Completely idiotic
if you can't see the difference you might as well vote for Bambi
because you are clueless about politics
all third party votes just get thrown in the trash, some bold statement! WRONG

Just look at what Sessions is doing!!!
making pot illegal again in all States!

Bringing back the KKK! Nazis trolling the streets

Obama gave us healthcare and took away property seizure
Trump and Sessions are taking away health care, and brought back property seizure

Do you really think the Dems would defund the EPA and make it Koch Brother friendly?
abortion, the environment, public lands, wages, jobs, civil rights, freedoms, privacy, clean water and air, safe food, regulations on corporations, funding education and science, non-authoritarian leaders, true democracy and 1000 more important things that make life bearable
all issues that the 2 parties are diametrically opposed

Just wait and see what the National debt is after a couple years of this is, it will be above $22 Trillion in months
it's a spend anothon on Crony capitalism

all votes should be directed at one outcome, stopping Republicans
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:40am PT
frostback

The Washington Post IS one of the main the brainwashing apparatus of the American media.

The owner of the WP (Jeff Bezos) has a huge multi-million contract with the CIA.

The CIA's main job is to brainwash you Americans to follow the American current idealism to maintain the USA global superiority at all costs .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 25, 2017 - 10:04am PT
To say it's just the "CIA" oversimplifies it...

Suffice to say there is no source of media in print or otherwise that has not been completely corrupted. Globally. Even rt.com reinforces the narrative but carries the same counterpoint nonsense(like the old FOX) which is hard to explain if we're supposed to be such bitter rivals.

The best and only source is to listen or read the actual sources such as speeches, transcripts, video, etc and arrive at your own hypothesis realizing that you likely only have 25% of the facts.

1984 is here and now.

Norton

Social climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 10:08am PT
Gary....

name some things that both parties agree upon -
I can think of one - respond with military force if we were directly attacked

surely you were paying attention when all that healthcare talk was going on?
you really believe both parties are the same on healthcare?

you really believe both parties are the same on abortion, equal pay for equal work?

I can go on and on but let's just start with the above, hopefully, more obvious ones?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2017 - 10:09am PT


Products of the American system...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 25, 2017 - 10:53am PT
If Sessions makes marijuana illegal
I will be sending troops of DEA agents over to Stoney Point with a list of names

search them
search their cars
search their homes

Throw em in jail
Lock em up
They deserve jail
these stupid ass idiots that supported this
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 11:33am PT
Here's your winning Demotwat ticket for 2020

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 25, 2017 - 11:58am PT
Seems like there is a certain consistency that runs through us and our thinking?

F*#k you - me and my thinking, we're good. And right. :-)

You can try thinking and fighting on the side of the dead, but I don't think you'll find that you're able to do that, at least not while you're alive and human.

Damn partisans!

Or materialists. Or crankloons. Or whatever. You know, those other bad people who believe stuff that I think is nonsense.

Pick a side and fight the other side. Call them names,the politards and crankloons and babies and partisans, if that's your thing.

Or don't. Good luck with that. :-)

You be you, and we'll see who you is.
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
Witness the recent arrest of a Chinese national who hacked the govt personnel files, likely including yours

Mine? LOL

I'm a worthless nobody, just a tiny useless insect.

It would be a huge waste time for anyone to look at my personal file.

Also, hacking can be done by anyone to look like someone else is doing it.

Don't believe everything you're fed ......
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 25, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
Hi, Norton. Not trolling. IMO, there are no differences of real substance between the Demopublicans and Republicrats. As someone a lot smarter than me has noted, the United States doesn't have politics, it has elections.

Yea. Here's another one.

If The People (meaning 5 members of the Supreme Court) had voted for Gore instead of Bush, I don't think the US would have invaded Iraq.

Spend some time chewing over how the world would be different for that one.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
Don't believe everything you're fed ......

But the 'feed' is so guuud. So unctuous...nom nom

The L00ns gobble it up. Tasty reality
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 25, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
Before Trump granted the pardon, the American Civil Liberties Union, which sought the court injunction against Arpaio, said it would be “a presidential endorsement of racism.”


Reuters News.
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
Trump IS an unconscious racist. He doesn't mean to be one.

He just says sh!t without really thinking it through and then people see a racist implication in his words.

In other words, he's kind of stoopid and keeps shooting himself in the foot unknowingly.

And you people are stoopid too.

You keep on repeating what you already know and been saying over and over and over.

Get a life, you Americans don't really know sh!t of how to get a real good honest leader.

That's because your whole top leadership infrastructure has been a corrupted cesspool for a long long way too many years now masquerading as all American goodness .....
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 25, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
WBraun ..... nails it.

again.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 25, 2017 - 06:21pm PT

WBraun ..... nails it.

Umm, he's talking about your hero, and he wasn't exactly being nice.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 25, 2017 - 06:26pm PT

Trump IS an unconscious racist. He doesn't mean to be one.

He just says sh!t without really thinking it through and then people see a racist implication in his words.

In other words, he's kind of stoopid and keeps shooting himself in the foot unknowingly.

And you people are stoopid too.

You keep on repeating what you already know and been saying over and over and over.

Get a life, you Americans don't really know sh!t of how to get a real good honest leader.

That's because your whole top leadership infrastructure has been a corrupted cesspool for a long long way too many years now masquerading as all American goodness .....

I'm convinced that trump doesn't want to be president. He knows he won't be reelected , so he is doing everything he can to f*#k over the people in this country.
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
Trump really wants to be the President, don't believe otherwise.

And he's NOT trying to fuk over the people of America.

It just looks that way to the untrained eyes of the stoopid KránkL00ns.

He's being heavily controlled by the real power structure behind the scene that American poltards are so unaware of.

Why do think he got elected by that power structure.

It's because they knew they could ultimately manipulate him to what they want to be done because he has very little political protection within the system.

Get the puppet elected!

To be POTUS in this day age is astronomically difficult with all the different sides attacking you at every instant ....

Do I want the gig Tad?

No thanks, I'm too stoopid of an American ......
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Trump's pardon is an attempt to sway the upcoming testimony of his former associates.

Not necessarily race based, but it doesn't hurt with his honky-base.

He cares only about his fragile ego and is truly a puppet.

Check out Bannon's "interview" with him prior to the election campaign where he totally owns him, while Trump thinks he is discovering the truth.



Trump has been a racist almost his whole life. I won't speculate on his level of consciousness. I'll leave it to the reader.



United States v. Fred C. Trump, Donald Trump, and Trump Management, Inc.

https://www.clearinghouse.net/detail.php?id=15342

He takes to the airwaves again to announce that, just as he thought, Washington is “filled with nothing but a bunch of tight-ass paper pushers who don’t have the slightest clue how to run a successful business operation. Sad. If this is the kind of government the people want, instead of letting me make America a world-class corrupt power, well then, there’s nothing more for me to do here. It’s hopeless. I have told Mike Pence that I’m handing in my resignation and returning to New York.”


The president continues, saying, “If anyone wants to know what I’ll be doing going forward, I’m excited to announce that I’ll be working with Steve Bannon, Roger Ailes, and some very good people, no, great people in the non-fake press world to create a really incredible new TV network that we’ll be calling Trump International Media or TIM. But not tiny TIM. This is going to be huge. I’m inviting my friends in show business to send me proposals now as we’d like to have some great shows on the air for the new fall season. Thank you America and God bless me.”
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
Tad you know as well as I that the one who can really lead America will be instantly destroyed by that corrupt power base within the American govt .......
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
Yeah, he's not a racist. He just hates anyone who isn't white. And 99.9% of the people who support him just happen to be white.

Maybe your ears don't hear the dog whistle, but he knows exactly what he's doing.

"They're trying to take away our culture". Anyone with a gram of common sense knows what that means.

Crankloon was swept away in the wave of MSM stupidity long ago.

Crankloon has the mind of a child. Forgive it.

Trump is no more a racist than the arch criminal Killery Cu*ton

Crankloon is a trustfunder a-hole.

How do the poor, unfed feel about the trusty Crankloons spewing on the intardnet???
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
Do tell??
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
Crankloon...'people' like you are the real problem in this country.

Intolerant, uneducated and so clueless

Your trustfund did S**T for your weak brain
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
This member (Crankloon)'s brain is still deactivated
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:12pm PT
^ ^ ^

What a fvcking waste of skin you are.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
Try some covefe instead if you're driving...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Aug 25, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Covefe drives the mouse ;-)

Buckle up.

Crankloons are roaches. Fair game under the rubber
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 25, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
It's going to meltdown when you quit posting inside the bird cage...Brawkkk..rj
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Aug 26, 2017 - 07:24am PT
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 26, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Retired Republican Senator John Danforth of Missouri unloads on Trump:

For most of his life, Trump has not professed traditional conservative sentiments. Wrote Danforth, “The fundamental reason Trump isn’t a Republican is far bigger than words or policies. He stands in opposition to the founding principle of our party—that of a united country.

“We are the party of the Union, and he is the most divisive president in our history. There hasn’t been a more divisive person in national politics since George Wallace.”

“In honor of our past and in belief in our future, for the sake of our party and our nation, we Republicans must disassociate ourselves from Trump by expressing our opposition to his divisive tactics and by clearly and strongly insisting that he does not represent what it means to be a Republican,” he said.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ex-gop-senator-trump-apos-145028072.html
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 26, 2017 - 09:30am PT
Cosmic's hero is, Hitler.

(the beyond obvious corollary)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 26, 2017 - 09:45am PT
Moose.. I thought your favorite was Moose-olini but i can't fault you for the switch..
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 26, 2017 - 10:21am PT
Robert E. Lee, at the end of the war, warned his fellow Southerners against glorifying the war and specifically requested that no monuments be built in its honor. He thought it best to leave the past behind and to move forward as a united nation.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 26, 2017 - 10:28am PT
Moose... Not to sound unappreciative , but that bra hides too much cleavage... Not sure if i like these traditional Moosepotamian folk dressess...RJ
c wilmot

climber
Aug 26, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Taking down statues is moving backwards. It's a waste of money and time.


Plus- the black clad antifa who blame Bernie for all their woes could use to study history rather than railing against it. At present they are acting exactly like those they claim to oppose. Right down to the black uniforms and misguided sense of blaming a Jewish politician for their political losses
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 26, 2017 - 10:52am PT
black clad antifa who blame Bernie

Not very smart, are ya Wilmont.

PS: I'll work on typos, you work on basic facts.
c wilmot

climber
Aug 26, 2017 - 10:53am PT
At least try and spell the name of the person you are insulting correctly...

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 26, 2017 - 11:00am PT
Taking down statues is moving backwards. It's a waste of money and time.


Plus- the black clad antifa who blame Bernie for all their woes could use to study history rather than railing against it. At present they are acting exactly like those they claim to oppose. Right down to the black uniforms and misguided sense of blaming a Jewish politician for their political losses

Glad to see you openly advocate having a symbol to address with your "sieg heil"
c wilmot

climber
Aug 26, 2017 - 11:02am PT
Ken m- seriously?

You just make up random nonsense

zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 26, 2017 - 11:53am PT
"Hard to be a traitor if you're not even a citizen."
-Citizen Kane
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 26, 2017 - 11:53am PT
You just make up random nonsense

That is funny coming from a guy who thinks antifa hates Sanders.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 26, 2017 - 12:20pm PT


I think everyone will agree that this atrocity has got to go.
f_the_trolls

climber
Aug 27, 2017 - 10:54pm PT
Was very glad to see this one removed as well:

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2017 - 01:07am PT
Who is on board with this?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/27/trump-expected-lift-ban-military-gear-local-police-forces/606065001/


I don't want to see our streets get militarized. If police routinely use this stuff, criminals will routinely escalate their preparedness and regular people are going to be caught in the war zone arms race.

I wonder if they send the new national brown shirt uniforms to the police departments too.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 28, 2017 - 05:02am PT
Our local friendly Leos are already 'militarized'. Mraps and surplus m4's with the happy switch abound. Wasteful and stupid but Its not the gear that matters so much, it's the training and attitude.

With the most absurd,'war on drugs' and now the 9/11 false flag fueled frenZy of boogeymen terrorists being everywhere we get the soldier training and accompanying attitude.

War is a racket, the poison trickles down into every crevice.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 28, 2017 - 06:26am PT
name some things that both parties agree upon -

Capitalism
War for profit
Enriching the rich

How different was the Obama administration from the Bush administration?
Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Aug 28, 2017 - 07:45am PT
god's punishment on Texas #Harvey
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 08:24am PT
Dr. Saint Gurmeet Singh Ram Rahim Ji Insan

ST role model? Slight problem - convicted rapist.


On Twitter, his bio paints him as something of a jack of all trades — and a master of all of them. Described as a "spiritual saint," a "philanthropist," a "versatile singer" and an "allrounder sportsperson," his website goes even further, labeling him a "youth icon," a "superb medic" and a "emperor of melodies."

Norton

Social climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 08:36am PT
How different was the Obama administration from the Bush administration?

Gary is a very smart man as evidenced from his posting history.

But, just to extend his obvious troll....

Bush did absolutely nothing about healthcare in America

The Obama Administration gave healthcare to 25 million Americans

The Obama Administration passed the Lilly Fair Act, guaranteeing women the same pay as men for the same work

The Obama Administration did not stupidly invade two middle east countries as Bush did

There were virtually no foreign attacks on the US during the Obama Administration
versus 3000 dead Americans under Bush when his administration was warned Bin Laden about to attack and did so on 911

The US went into the worst recessions since the Great Depression under Bush
Under Obama the US economy recovered, millions of jobs were created and the stock market more than doubled

I could keep going on but if the point is not clear by now it would not matter
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 28, 2017 - 08:51am PT
Those pesky facts..
Norton

Social climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 09:15am PT
confirmed - the Bernie people handed the election to Trump

final exit polling shows 12% of Bernie people voted for Trump instead of Hillary
enough to hand the election to Trump

nice going dumb asses - bought the free college and free Medicare for all BS, huh?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 28, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Stoopid Americanas...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 28, 2017 - 10:21am PT
Gary is a very smart man as evidenced from his posting history.

You've always been one of the more astute posters on this site! :-)

But, just to extend his obvious troll....

Bush did absolutely nothing about healthcare in America

And Obama made sure that the worst aspect of our healthcare, private for-profit insurance, was mandatory.

The Obama Administration gave healthcare to 25 million Americans

Better than nothing, I suppose.

The Obama Administration passed the Lilly Fair Act, guaranteeing women the same pay as men for the same work

Great, women that work are now no more exploited than men. How about doing something to ensure that people that work in America get to retain the fair share of wealth that they produce, rather than see it siphoned off to the 0.1%? No difference between Dems and Repubs there.

The Obama Administration did not stupidly invade two middle east countries as Bush did

Libya is not a country? Syria is not a country?

There were virtually no foreign attacks on the US during the Obama Administration
versus 3000 dead Americans under Bush when his administration was warned Bin Laden about to attack and did so on 911

Score one for Obama. However over 2500 Americans soldiers and sailors have died overseas under Obama.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/some-2-500-americans-have-died-in-afghanistan-and-iraq-under-obama-20160530



The US went into the worst recessions since the Great Depression under Bush
Under Obama the US economy recovered, millions of jobs were created and the stock market more than doubled

Yes, the Democrats always do better with the economy than the GOP, but that's not saying much is it? There are still too many Americans without work, proper housing, proper nutrition, proper healthcare and proper education.

I could keep going on but if the point is not clear by now it would not matter

The fact of the matter is that the two most effective Republican presidents since Eisenhower are Clinton and Obama. At least the real Republicans make it clear that they are out to f*#k you over, the Democrats say they "feel your pain" and campaign on "hope and change."
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 28, 2017 - 11:04am PT
We invaded Syria and Libya like Iraq and Afghanistan?

We must have had hundreds of thousands of troops in them, right?

And their governments must have been relatively stable.

Scratch that, they were both in deep civil war when we got involved.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 11:20am PT
...and just because Obama didn't stop people from making money off the backs of others, it somehow would have been better if the money-making person was able to make a bigger profit off the backs of the women?

Gee....I wonder what the gender wage disparity is within the penal system. If a "free man" gets $21.50/hour, and an incarcerated man gets $0.50/hour, and if a "free woman" receives $17.65/hour, does the incarcerated woman make $0.42/hour?

For those who would argue that incarcerated people receive room and board, do they believe an employer of unincarcerated people ought to pay the men or women who live with their parents less than the ones who are in their own home or apartments? What about the ones living out of a van? Should they receive less than the one with the bigger rent/mortgage payment?
Norton

Social climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 11:22am PT
ah, so another Bernie voter tries to duck his own responsibility by making assumptions

by the way, the election was nine months ago, not a year

as there was no exit polling then assumptions are irrelevant

BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS HELPED TRUMP WIN AND HERE'S PROOF

http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 28, 2017 - 11:52am PT
Hillary would have also got a fair number of them back, if Sanders was VP.

Considering the razor thin margins in the rust belt, that would have been enough.

Yay for Timmy Kaine!

Next time, pay attention to 45% of your primary voters.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
Hey, I liked Bernie

he is a cute old curmudgeon, what is not to like?

free college, Medicare for everyone, broken record

but he "spoke truth to power"! so what

the right never bothered to spend a dime to vet Bernie, they knew he would not be the nominee

just a quick look at his wiki page will show you why, quasi communist and socialist joiner
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
Gary, I think your perceptions might be explained and expanded upon as this:
 dems and repubs are allowed to have different policies as long as they tow the line on the issues that matter most to the richest folks
 this status quo is enforced because there are strings attached to indirect campaign financing via super-PACs and the tail-end perks after the stint in public office is over (speaking fees, law firm partnerships and other sinecures, book deals, charitable foundations, etc.) which are funded by the richest folks. It's a system of bribery designed to be separated in space and time to make it harder to detect or hold the violators on either side accountable. Our Supreme Court (all of whom were nominated by Presidents who achieved their office because of this system) voted 5-4 to enshrine this system as part of the Citizens United decision.

In short, we cannot expect a solution to this problem to come from the system itself, and that is why the voting public is always enamored by candidates who represent change or an outsider view.

In order to elect a leader who can champion real reforms that support the masses while taking away some of the benefits that the richest folks reap... such a leader must:
1. Get elected without dependencies on the large donors
2. Have the integrity to not prioritize their personal financial gain after leaving office ahead of their actions that would favor the masses over the large donors
3. Fundamentally have a desire to do good deeds for the masses, even if it comes at a great personal cost

A candidate who meets both #1 and #2 causes the large donors to lose their financial power to exploit the weaknesses of pride- and greed- in politicians. However, this does not at all guarantee that the status quo (of mass oppression to benefit the rich and powerful) will change!

Rather, it means the rich and powerful will switch to whatever tools are necessary to maintain the status quo.

First option: remove the candidate threat. It starts simply with disparaging their name (a sex scandal? corruption charge? any dirt to dig up? If nothing real is found, something can be exaggerated or wholly invented with a back-story of people willing to testify. There is no need to go out and murder people any more. You can murder their effectiveness without needing to raise the attention of the masses by actually murdering their body. But murder is always there as a last resort, couched in a suicide, an accident, falling out a window, etc.

Second option: create a distraction that drowns out the message of the candidate: weapons of mass destruction, war on terror, immigrants stealing jobs, terrible trade deals, environmental catastrophes, global warming, despotic rulers overseas that need to be stopped, nuclear war, KKK marches, clown showboating media whore president, etc. The focus on these issues doesn't have a real bearing on how much truth there is or how much we should really be concerned about the given issues. The point is, dominate the news cycles with short-attention span messages triggering fear or hate or outrage, and stop people from making deeper inquiries into our societal problems, and stop people from pondering how we remain pitted against each other in specific wedge issues and cultivated identities, while studiously avoiding certain issues that can actually make the biggest difference in all of our lives: election mechanisms and campaign financing; who reaps the wealth generated by the work and resources in our society....



I do acknowledge a big difference between the platforms and viewpoints and strategies of Dems and Repubs, and it DOES make a difference which we vote for. At the same time, we have to solve the bigger problem that neither Dem nor Repub can get us out of, i.e. the status quo rich getting richer while poor get poorer. The institutions are pervasively infected by the richest folks.

That is why I was such a fan of Bernie, and why I felt inspired to support him. He cracked the code on how to get campaign funding without the large donors. He has the integrity to not prioritize the back-end perks above his duties of office. He has the desire to do good and help the masses. He's not a god, he's not an iconic superstar to worship. But he was the best catalyst for societal change in a long time, tapping into widespread societal values and beliefs and educating people about what needed to happen to make all of our lives better. He had a choice:
1. Go independent and lose all the staunch Democrat votes, won't get elected. Long history of this in America.
2. Gamble with the Democrat party, winner take all primary fight.

He came damn close in the primary fight. But in the end, when he couldn't be compromised directly by money, the rich folks used it to exploit the financial vulnerability of the rest of the Democratic Party apparatus. That money bought the mainstream Democratic candidate more experienced folks for organizing, more advertisements, more media spinning, etc. Maybe it's more accurate to consider the mainstream party politicians enmeshed in the bribery system as co-conspirators rather than vulnerable victims. It's a fair trade and ongoing negotiation between the richest folks and the type of politician that will sell ideals for personal gain... I digress.

So Bernie made his choice, knowing the risks and consequences of either path, and he fought to the bitter end, until there was no path forward for his candidacy. Then he chose the next best thing, leveraging his power by withholding the Hillary endorsement until she publicly committed to important campaign positions that favored the masses. She would never be able to turn directly against her corporate sponsors, but the $15 minimum wage was a compromise position that was acceptable because it didn't hurt her financial backers as much. It might be more likely to hurt small businesses, or mixed results for large retail and manufacturing industries, but these are often more Republican than Democrat supporters anyways. So. The pragmatist part of Bernie could call a little win in the life-long battle against an unfair status quo-
increasing the wages for the lowest in our society. Almost. Chalk that up as a minor battle victory in a war that doesn't see many victories for the masses.


I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the main election for the reasons cited above. I would hope that the staunch Democrats among us can read my wall of text and consider more nuanced positions going forward. Support Democrats when it comes down to a choice of Dem vs Repub if you believe in the points on which they differ. But be realistic about which important things in our society that are unlikely to be changed by either party unless the party is coopted by a charismatic candidate who meets all of the #1 #2 and #3 requirements I outlined above. Even then it it will be a longshot to make real change, because most people just don't think about these things or care enough.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 28, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
More like definitive proof that politics is like religion; mostly faith and little logic. It's great when someone does an analysis that comes directly to the conclusion you like. It must be good then! I think Nut gives a decent summary of how this went, and I voted the same he did primary and general. People want real change.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 28, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
We invaded Syria and Libya like Iraq and Afghanistan?

When you go to another country to kill people and exert your will on that nation, I count that as an invasion. YMMV

dems and repubs are allowed to have different policies as long as they tow the line on the issues that matter most to the richest folks

Yes.

Rather, it means the rich and powerful will switch to whatever tools are necessary to maintain the status quo.

Such as the plot to overthrow FDR.

I do acknowledge a big difference between the platforms and viewpoints and strategies of Dems and Repubs, and it DOES make a difference which we vote for. At the same time, we have to solve the bigger problem that neither Dem nor Repub can get us out of the status quo rich getting richer while poor get poorer. The institutions are pervasively infected by the richest folks.

Nice summary, NutAgain.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 28, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
Rather, it means the rich and powerful will switch to whatever tools are necessary to maintain the status quo.

Pretty sure that's the way it's always worked since a certain likeness of us crawled out of the Rift Valley.

Arguing over which puppet skin is draped over the current puppet in chief is pointless as it doesn't matter. The position itself IS the lipstick on the pig. GWB couldn't even read the teleprompter.

Yeah, people are waking up but watch how easily they're turned against each other rather than the root of evil.



Norton

Social climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
Well, when it came down to just Trump and Clinton at the end

a Mount Everest of negatives versus "used a private email server"

then Dingus is right in that... yes it follows that ....the Dems should not call anyone stupid anymore

Instead of calling them stupid for costing my team the election.

stupid is as stupid votes...the country got what they wanted and voted for

except for that pesky Electoral College thing negating Clinton's 3 million more votes of course
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 28, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
Dood

Hillary was a not a good candidate for these times. It was her job to sell herself and she did a crappy job of it. To be honest, Obama was a huge disappointment, even considering the fact that he was treated appalling by the Republicans. The whole birth certificate thing was just idiotic. However, Obama's failures actually contributed to Clinton's loss in my opinion, because Obama ended up being the bastion of little hope and no real change. The Democratic party really is a joke now, and it better get it's act together soon. Too bad it shows no real sign of doing so.


The email thingy was the least of my problems with her. But Trump is a total, bullshitting, cluster so I voted her. Either way I figured I'd be spending a fair amount of time voicing my disapproval of what either were doing. Just figured I'd be doing a whole lot more of it with Trump in office. And I am.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 28, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
Ergo, nominating Hillary was a mistake. YOU handed the presidency to that orange puke.

Moose

So, you are opposed to democracy?

And you think that all the people who were motivated to elect a woman for the first time would have voted for Bernie?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 28, 2017 - 04:23pm PT

When you go to another country to kill people and exert your will on that nation, I count that as an invasion. YMMV

So, by your definition, Al-Queda invaded the US?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 28, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
If I were a democrat I'd be thinking how to opt-in all those stupid people who did not elect my last nominee.

Instead of calling them stupid for costing my team the election.

Who planned that sh#t anyway?

DMT, pardon me if I am wrong, but that is EXACTLY the strategy that Clinton undertook after she won the primary. She could hardly have done more to opt in his supporters.

Another failed strategy.....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 28, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
So, by your definition, Al-Queda invaded the US?

Ken, yes, that's what I'm saying. YMMV

Al-Qaeda is not a nation, which puts wrinkles in things, I suppose.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 28, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
Gary! Re your response to Ken:

So, by your definition, Al-Queda invaded the US?


Ken, yes, that's what I'm saying. YMMV

Al-Qaeda is not a nation, which puts wrinkles in things, I suppose.


I was leaning your way, but all the definitions of military invasions involve large bodies of troops planning on occupying the invaded country.

Invasion in Military topic:
From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
in‧va‧sion /ɪnˈveɪʒən/ ●●○ noun 
1 when the army of one country enters another country by force, in order to take control of it

And Wikipedia:

An invasion is a military offensive in which large parts of combatants of one geopolitical entity aggressively enter territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself.

Of course, by those definitions, Obama's actions in Syria & Libya are not military invasions, but Bush's invasions of Iraq & Afganistan were.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 28, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
1 when the army of one country enters another country by force, in order to take control of it

Do air forces count? Naval blockade?
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
The US is in Syria illegally and has been for years supporting the overthrowing of a democratically elected govt. and ruining their country causing untold civilian humanitarian crisis and deaths.

You people should be ashamed.

But you are not.

You just babble endlessly about two stoopid fools Trump and Hillary.

nah000

climber
now/here
Aug 28, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
Norton wrote : "BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS HELPED TRUMP WIN AND HERE'S PROOF"

uhhh... as has been the case in the past: not so fast with your click bait based left wing fake news...

and i don't even have to do any research as the data is right in the article itself.

because here's the thing:

bernie appealed to a range of political spectrum, that in many instances would have never voted for any establishment democrat candidate and more importantly he brought a lot of people to the voting booth who would likely not have voted at all.



AND THE PROOF IS RIGHT IN THE ARTICLE WITH THE CLICK-BAIT TITLE:

based on the article itself:

 bernie voters who voted for trump: 12%
 bernie voters who voted for clinton: ~76%
 bernie voters who did not vote or voted for a candidate other than trump or clinton: ~ 12%

but also from the article:

 about ~55% of bernie/trump voters did not consider themselves in any way shape or form democrats
 and ~6% of bernie/clinton voters did not consider themselves in any way shape or form democrats
 and in aggregate ~37% of bernie/other+noone voters did not consider themselves in any way shape or form democrats



combine the two together and you get:

0.55*12% + 0.06*76% + 0.37*12% = 6.6% + 4.6% + 4.4% = 15.6%



yes, you are reading that correctly: ~16% of the people who voted for bernie were not in any way shape or form democrats.



and now you're pissing on them because some of them didn't vote for hilllary?

are some of you seriously for reals?



every second you establishment apologizing dems make russian/bernie/millenial/comey excuses for the little blue engine that couldn't because they thought they were owed something and so tried to run a soulless, uncreative and "by the book" campaign... is another second you contribute to another fUcktard being in office.

while, given what she's said in the past, tulsi gabbard would likely come down with a strangely debilitating illness or a case of the missing brakes or an extra orifice in her head if she posed an actual threat... that a good chunk of you who voted for clinton and lost are still stuck in the past, instead of looking to the future [whether tulsi or other], is the biggest mistake i made in my understanding/expectations of what was likely going to happen.



oh well, i guess it's going to take the dying off of another generation or half before maybe real change can come to the plate.

until then, enjoy the wheezing, the excuses, and the projections of, at least for the forseeable future, a dying empire based on a misguided ideology [that both establishment democrats and establishment republicans have foisted onto the world regardless of their domestic policy differences].
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 28, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
I'm totally and completely ashamed...As my punishment i choose Tulsi Gabbard to interogate me...
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Aug 28, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
The fact that Trump was even contemplated as a candidate for president means the U.S. is pretty much done. There is no bridging the divide between someone who voted for Trump and those who didn't, and nor should there be. In a couple of generations we'll be splintered into blue city states and red rural wastelands.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
The US is in Syria illegally and has been for years supporting the overthrowing of a democratically elected govt. and ruining their country causing untold civilian humanitarian crisis and deaths.

May be time to fire these dudes, eh?

Any Sandanistas available?




rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 28, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
Good point oh the edge...Trump shows leadership and Hillary didn't... she should have kicked Trump in the nuts when he was stalking her at the debates...
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Don't even bother with Ken M.

90% of the time he's off his meds .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2017 - 05:56am PT
The US is in Syria illegally and has been for years supporting the overthrowing of a democratically elected govt. and ruining their country causing untold civilian humanitarian crisis and deaths.

You people should be ashamed.

But you are not.

You just babble endlessly about two stoopid fools Trump and Hillary.

But Russia Russia Russia!... but but Bernie... but but...

It is amusing.

If Trump's latest bomb-Afghanistan speech (first pure teleprompter btw) didn't convince everyone who is really in control then you're not paying attention.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:03am PT
hey fear
since you're the only one that seems to know who's in charge
maybe you can enlighten the rest of us
my Goggle machine says it's the right wing fascist billionaires, but you imply it's some magical illuminati that wants war

maybe some links would help us normal folk understand this conspiracy of yours
c wilmot

climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:07am PT
The bilderberg conference attendees would be a good start...

As would realizing our media is a propaganda machine...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:49am PT
hey fear
since you're the only one that seems to know who's in charge
maybe you can enlighten the rest of us
my Goggle machine says it's the right wing fascist billionaires, but you imply it's some magical illuminati that wants war

maybe some links would help us normal folk understand this conspiracy of yours

Who benefits from these endless wars Craig? There's your answer. It's not the puppets everyone focuses on.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:51am PT
The media and some contractors
so what,

only the media has any control and they are owned by right wing billionaires

so it comes back to right wing billionaires, as I said
and they control the Republican Party
the endless war is just another right wing control measure

You want to know more, read "Dark Money"
It spells it all out with researched facts
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:54am PT
“We have a lot of blonde women in Finland.”

... Trump, miffed about the optics of empty seats in the Phoenix Convention Center, “later had his top security aide, Keith Schiller, inform Gigicos that he'd never manage a Trump rally again, according to three people familiar with the matter.”...



I used to live in Berkeley, reporters never got the stories right.

About twenty-five self-styled anarchists in black showed up at the shindig, out of how many?

How many arrests in Charlottesville? How many at Berkeley?


Bearing in mind, what we know about reporting

Berkeley = 13
Charlottesville = Police in Charlottesville arrested almost as many drunk people as violent white supremacists


Following news reports of a few additional arrests, Dickler told ThinkProgress on Wednesday that she could now confirm eight total arrests related to the rally. The initial number, she explained, was not comprehensive because Charlottesville and the surrounding county has city, county, university, and state police all patrolling a relatively small area. She did not know when a final number would be available.



[Click to View YouTube Video]




.

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:58am PT
Pretty sure we are still allowed to punch Nazis, right ? Like the whole world took a stance on them at some point in the recent past ??
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:06am PT
Pretty sure we are still allowed to punch Nazis, right ?

I thought with the "Politically Correct" consciousness that's been hammered down on Americans throats that all you can do now is to
drool and sling sentences that will not be censored by the "Politically Correct" consciousness Nazis ..... :-)
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:06am PT
Nope. But if I see someone with a swastika on I usually will ask them if they are a Nazi...

You defending them I take it ? Nazis ? OK with them ?

Personally they can march all they want in my book, until they bring weapons and try intimidation tactics. And I'd just follow them with a tuba and make fun of their small minded scared selves...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:06am PT
the endless war is just another right wing control measure

Craig... free your mind.... the left/right thing is nonsense.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:10am PT
DMT is NO Nazi ever and never was nor ever will be ......
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:10am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Pretty sure we are still allowed to punch Nazis, right ?

Seems like our fathers, grandfathers, uncles and granduncles were the OG antifa. They did more than punch them.

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:18am PT
They have the right to assemble PEACEFULY, and deal with the people that should also PEACEFULLY protest/argue with them.

NEITHER side is allowed to START violence. It looks like the Charlestown Right crowd was planning just that, based on the data they are getting...and they brought a f*#king MILITIA...

NO. NO NO NO.

Violence just begets more violence, eye for an eye everybody blind etc...but only a fool turns their back on a toddler with a gun...

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:22am PT
^^^YUP

Because $
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:38am PT

If you haven't figured it out yet .....

Craig Fry hasn't

KránkL00n hasn't

NóřT0n hasn't

Dirtbag hasn't

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:45am PT
How is Houston experiencing its third ‘500-year’ flood in 3 years?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:46am PT
A new polling low for Trump: Just 16 percent ‘like’ his conduct as president

A new poll from the Pew Research Center also found that, among Republicans and Republican-leaning voters, just 34 percent liked the president's conduct.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:47am PT
Senior White House aides are increasingly airing their private disagreements publicly

Among allies of the president, the emerging voices of dissent are being likened to a “mutiny” by disloyal aides. But so far, Trump has not taken any action to dismiss anyone, to the disappointment of those same allies.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:53am PT
Crankster I will not disagree with you - yes there are some violent as#@&%es on the left as well, and unprovoked violence is ALWAYS WRONG.

Just beware false flags, like the police in Montreal with the fake agitators...not saying all these people were fakes, just saying you can't really trust anyone because everyone has their own agenda these days...

This is totally a divide and conquer strategy designed to keep us fighting each other instead of Unifying against the $$. Immigrants didn't steal your jobs and close the factories - hedge fund managers and greed did that. Immigrants didn't poison the drinking water in Flint, either...that was a deliberate series of decisions made by those in power...we can go on and on about what people blame groups for, vs what the real source of the issues are...

We need to find a center. The US is the melting pot ffs...we as a country deserve better than to dissolve into a fascist state because we are too busy hating to actually see the real source of the problems...
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:11am PT
TRUMP SUPPORTERS ARE STOOPID!!!...

Spoken like a committed Marxist.

Four legs good. Two legs bad....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:23am PT
This is totally a divide and conquer strategy designed to keep us fighting each other instead of Unifying against the $$.

Same thing with the BLM thing in Dallas where that supposed "BLM protestor" opened fire on the cops. You see that guy move on those videos? Total highly trained pro who had been in firefights before, not just some angry 'black guy'...

One of the reasons I don't attend 'rallys', all it takes is a handful of agitators for things to go really badly.



Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:51am PT
As far as the silly myth that both parties are equal:

Start illegal wars: which party invaded Iraq based on fabricated evidence?

Owned by banks: Which party wants to overturn Dodd Frank and get rid of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) ?

Continuing the drug war: Which party generally wants to "lock em up and throw away the key" (as long as it's not white collar crime) ? Which party loves guns in every chicken pot? Which party was most in favor of "3 strikes"?

Slaves to corporations: Which party has tried its best to ignore anti trust laws? Which party is trying to kill net neutrality? Which party wants to kill the EPA? Which party supports Citizens United? Which party denies climate change?

Contiuing the police state: one party is worse than the other. Which party more often supports the ACLU?

Spying: Which party does Donny Trump belong to ? (who just proposed more spying on US citizens).
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:00am PT
Yeah DMT sorry - I didn't get to read the whole thread and shoved my stinky foot pretty hard down my throat there, didn't I...

The more things change, eh ? ;-)
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:07am PT
MOST TRUMP SUPPORTERS ARE STUPID
Norton

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:11am PT
Splater, excellent
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:11am PT

Even the intellectual republican rats are now leaving the Trump ship...
Norton

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:13am PT
intellectual republican
\

by definition an oxymoron, I can't name one
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:23am PT

Julius Krein went into a career in finance, working for Bank of America and the Blackstone Group. During the 2016 U.S. presidential election, he was employed at a hedge fund based in Boston while also contributing as a writer and site administrator for a pro-Trump blog. The blog, known as the Journal for American Greatness, was created supposedly to support Trump on the basis that his beliefs were politically sound. The blog's owners eventually took it offline, claiming it had begun as an inside joke and they were not prepared for such large readership.Its popularity led to Krein deciding to leave his day job to launch an authentic publication, American Affairs, a quarterly journal intended to support Trump from an intellectual perspective.

The inaugural issue of American Affairs was released February 21, one month after Trump's inauguration, which Krein intended to be the first of four issues for 2017. In an interview before its release, Krein stated he planned to have several dozen contributors and for each issue to include about 10 essays. The first issue included features on "the failure of standard conservative ideology," nationalism, fusionism, and academic free market theory. The issue received mixed reviews.

On August 17, 2017, following Trump's reaction to the events of the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally, Krein wrote an op-ed in The New York Times entitled "I Voted for Trump and I Sorely Regret It". Krein's public denouncement of Trump, in which he encouraged others to do the same, attracted significant media attention. In his op-ed, he lamented that he and his fellow Trump supporters were guilty of "deluding ourselves" during the 2016 election and that Trump's harshest critics had been proven right.

In an interview with Slate, Krein further explained how he had rationalized his public support for Trump prior to the Charlottesville rally. Krein stated that he did not feel Trump was legitimately racist. He told Slate, "I didn’t think the racist stuff was real. I thought it was media provocation. And that the economic or other stuff—that’s what he really cared about, and we are not electing a Pope, we are electing a president. If he gets even a couple things done, it’s good for the country, and by the way good for everybody."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 11:43am PT
Of the 35 highest-paid University of California employees in 2016, some were doctors, others coaches — and all men.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:29pm PT


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
We need to amend that Golden book "All the leaders I don't like are Hitler."

Maybe on the back? "All the people I don't like are Nazi's"

I'm sure other cultures do the same thing, I wonder what archetypes they use...
Norton

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
Krein stated that he did not feel Trump was legitimately racist.

apparently, Mr, Krein did not bother to read that Donald Trump was sued twice by the Federal government for refusing to rent to black people, but that is just not racist......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
intellectual republican
\

by definition an oxymoron, I can't name one

George Will
David Brooks
David Gerson
William Kristol
Fred Barnes
Max Boot
David Frum
Brit Hume
Charles Krauthammer
P.J O'Rourke
......................
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
William Fukkin' Buckley
Milton Friedman

funny thing though

They both be dead

Norton

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
Pyro
Cosmic
Bluering
+ guyman

yes indeed, all proven intellectual Republicans
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
George Lincoln Rockwell
George Wallace
Orville Faustus
Lester Maddox
Ricxk Parry

NAZI 1959 - Madison Square Garden. Was Trump there?


https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-08/14/16/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-02/sub-buzz-15652-1502744350-3.jpg?downsize=1600:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
Rep. Rohrabacher says 'rendezvous' being set up with Trump to relay info from WikiLeaks' Assange on DNC hack

So now this Calif scum is colluding with an enemy of the USA, to influence the President.

why isn't he colluding with the FBI traitor? He must know a lot of stuff.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
Actually, in our sandbox, I would only have named John E.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
My sympathies & condolences to those people in Texas afflicted & ruined by Hurricane Harvey.

CNN is calling out your politiicians & the oil & gas companies, that own your leaders, for the lack of hurricane preparedness that brought on this current epic disaster.

Once the immediate crisis ends, the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, should resign with an apology to his state and his country. Then the Texas delegation in Congress should make a public confession. They have lied to their constituents for too long, expecting the rest of America to keep bailing them out.

The reason is this. Texas politics aims to bring profits to the oil and gas industry, but it does this at high cost and dire threat to Texas residents and the American people.

Hurricane Harvey was a foreseeable disaster. Indeed, a massive hurricane strike on Houston, followed by massive flooding, was widely anticipated.

But Houston is an oil town, and the American oil industry has been enemy No. 1 of climate truth and climate preparedness. Most oil companies and Texas politicians see nothing, say nothing, do nothing. Even worse, they hide the truth, and then beg for help as needed. Gov. Abbott has played this game one disaster too many.

Here's the link to more, like this statement:

The Texas Tribune and ProPublica published a 2016 award-winning report on "Hell or High Water," explaining why Houston is a "sitting duck for the next big hurricane." In 2015, Inside Climate News wrote that "as weather extremes like flooding batter Texas, its refusal to prepare for an even more volatile climate leaves residents at risk, experts say."

On June 16 of this year, citing the city's widening concrete sprawl and deaths from flooding in recent years, the UK Guardian wrote that "Houston fears climate change will cause catastrophic flooding: It's not if, it's when."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/29/opinions/hurricane-harvey-abbott-needs-to-resign-sachs/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
I also like the back and forth of PHD. republican posters discussing American politics.. It's reminds me of watching monkey's f*#king a football...
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdennisaday.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2Fmonkey-football.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdennisaday.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Ffootball-and-monkeys%2F&docid=6vR7JwYUQebXIM&tbnid=-_AyI9HYxbzctM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj15_DUiP7VAhUW42MKHaEYAPwQMwg3KAEwAQ..i&w=600&h=450&bih=904&biw=768&q=monkeys%20football&ved=0ahUKEwj15_DUiP7VAhUW42MKHaEYAPwQMwg3KAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

Remind you of anyone?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
National Weather Service: Harvey Rainfall Surpasses All Known Rainfall Records on Contiguous U.S. Mainland…

Per CNN's story on who is at fault: Is there a flood infrastucture anywhere on earth that would hold the line on a storm this big?

In Houston: Citizens pitch in to help rescue other citizens.
In Berkeley: AntiFA violence squelch's free speech yet again.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
Zbrown: re your post?

[img]https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdennisaday.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2Fmonkey-football.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdennisaday.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2F29%2Ffootball-and-monkeys%2F&docid=6vR7JwYUQebXIM&tbnid=-_AyI9HYxbzctM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj15_DUiP7VAhUW42MKHaEYAPwQMwg3KAEwAQ..i&w=600&h=450&bih=904&biw=768&q=monkeys%20football&ved=0ahUKEwj15_DUiP7VAhUW42MKHaEYAPwQMwg3KAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8[\img]

Is it me, you are working?

Jest curious, since sometimes, you tend to the obtuse.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Fritz

No


It has more to do with Johnny. (Who doesn't?) Unite Us.

See corrected syntax above

Obviously Larry Nelson is no relative of Mike Nelson who would always always ask in his various Sea Hunts

What about climatological change, what happened in Charlottesville, whodunit, wasn't WWII conducted (and won) by a gaggle of dedicated anti-fascists?

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
zBrown!

Thank you!

Respect to you!

& Larry!

I agree that Harvey was a 500 year storm, but why does Houston design their interstate highways to flood out at bayou crossings in major rain events?

And? Why should a 500 year storm appear just now?

Not that I'm one to -------blame

global warming?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:51pm PT
Hey Fritz,
Good questions.
Since Katrina I've wondered why cities like Houston and New Orleans keep building in flood prone areas.
Houston’s low-lying flatlands keep booming, as sprawling subdivisions and parking lots pave over the wetlands and pastures that used to soak up the area’s excess rainfall, which is how Houston managed to host three “500-year floods” in the past three years.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/29/a-storm-made-in-washington-215549
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 29, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
Fritz... Texas is climate change denial headquarters so the only other reasonable explanation is that god is once again punishing the LHPQ's ( long haired pacifist queers ) ..
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:06pm PT
Larry: Thank you for your, as always, reasonable comments.

Re your mention:

Since Katrina I've wondered why cities like Houston and New Orleans keep building in flood prone areas.

I believe the conservative Republican slogan, now reinforced by our president, is:

ALL-GROWTH is GOOD!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
Even before climate change and so sea level rise, there were millions of humans and trillions of dollars of property in North America exposed to predictable flooding, largely due to decades if not centuries of feckless planning and irresponsibility at all levels of government. And other statistically predictable natural disasters, aided and abetted by fools.

No surprise that the AGW denial industry, although hugely backed by corporate interests, falls on such receptive ears. The inevitable consequences of accepting the reality of AGW would be enormous impacts on the public, governments, and economies. The NOAA predicts an average sea level rise of 0.3 - 2.5 m by 2100 CE. Add to that increased frequency of heavy rain, high winds, or both. How many tens of millions of humans will have to relocate their homes, and how much else will need to be relocated, to accommodate that, and post-2010 rises? No wonder so many politicians boot the ball as far downfield as they can, hoping it'll be someone else's problem. And that so many of the public are willing to do an ostrich act.

The credulousness of the religious right, the lies of much of industry, the "sky is falling" behavior of a few environmentalists, and the fantasies of some that these issues can't or shouldn't be addressed by governments, do little to contribute to sane public debate and action.

The human race is in a big hole, which is rapidly filling with water, and other things that aren't friendly to us.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 29, 2017 - 10:49pm PT
zBrown posted
wasn't WWII conducted (and won) by a gaggle of dedicated anti-fascists?

z, this is kind of a cheap shot, but you seem to have a well developed sense of humor.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Aug 30, 2017 - 06:35am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 30, 2017 - 07:09am PT
Ann Coulter? Really. Perhaps we should consult Mrs. Betty Bowers:
This week, sweet Ann Coulter released her latest in a series of pre-rehab books, entitled "Godless." Naturally, the title led me to believe that it was an unexpectedly candid autobiography. Alas, she may be saving that book until after she's been strapped to a bed at Hazelden for a month. Instead of using this book to dabble in the bracing novelty of introspection, Miss Coulter turns her two-setting mind ("off" and "off her rocker") to hector us about religion.

Let's be honest: Reading a book about religion from Ann Coulter is tantamount to reading a book about dieting from Michael Moore. After all, who wants to be lectured about not being Christian enough by an almost-50 year-old boozehound in a black leather miniskirt who has never been married? Count me as having a healthy skepticism over whether Miss Coulter has saved herself for marriage. Or anything, for that matter.

. . .

Indeed, to hear Miss Coulter speak (in that wound up Martha Stewart-on-helium Connecticut lockjaw voice of hers), you'd think she is someone who actually embraces heartland, Christian, American values. In reality, however, she is less like June Cleaver baking pot-roast than she is like Samantha Jones baked on pot. Indeed, this is no piously serene Christian wife, but a braying loud mouth who wears super-slutty clothes, powders her bony nose more often than Lindsay Lohan (if you know what I mean), knocks back scotch with an alacrity that eludes Ted Kennedy since the advent of rheumatoid arthritis, lives only in cities filled with homos and screws anything willing to bang an anorexic skeleton.

c wilmot

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 07:11am PT
Getting trolled by Ann coulter in 2017...impressive.
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 08:10am PT
If the govt. allows infrastructure building in high potential flood and earthquake zones than it's also their faults.

Since the govt is for the people by the people then everyone is at fault.

Therefore we are ultimatly st000pid Americans ......
c wilmot

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 08:17am PT
why did all those people go move to those risky places anyway

Because the land was cheap. Not everyone can afford a fancy house in the city...
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 08:28am PT
When natural disasters happen everyone suffers.

They built those oil rigs and refineries in hurricane zones.

America runs on oil.

Now gas will go up and everything even more expensive again.

I made a bad choice to live America where there's nothing but DMT's who blame everything on everyone else :-)

I should have stayed in the jungle where bananas grow and are free to eat.

My bad ..... :-)
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:17am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:19am PT
Its time conservatives walked their talk and paid their own goddamn bills, right?

Yeah, like that's going to happen!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Trump in no more insane than any other two bit real estate hustler.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:36am PT
Sorry, DMT, the only body that can prevent the stoopid Americans and Canadians from building in higher risk areas, and effectively manage construction in such areas, is government. Of course individuals will often take the (apparently) most economical option. And much development in high risk area pre-dates effective government regarding such things. But we know better now, and it'll take time to change. But we have to start somewhere.

As both DMT and Werner are in high-risk areas, both from flooding and earthquake, I'm sure you agree.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:36am PT
Even in visiting ravaged Texas, Trump keeps the focus on himself

The president has talked about TV ratings and predicted that he’ll soon be congratulating himself. He had yet to mention those killed, call on Americans to help, or directly encourage donations.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 10:04am PT
Its great to see Canadian companies and the Mexican Govt stepping up to provide assistance to those in need.

If any idiots think that "going it alone" is the way to go, this is an example of why it matters that we have strong alliances. The response to 911, also, demonstrated that.

The Bannons of the country, who view all foreigners as "marks" for exploitation, and enemies to be stiff-armed, should be banned from the country.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 10:18am PT
The primary irresponsibility belongs to all the folks that built their homes of straw, on wet ground.

Just like the primary irresponsibility for homes going up in wild fires belongs to those home owners who located there. Its our own irresponsibility.

And all those people from Vancouver to San Diego living right over giant cracks in the earth - us, in other words.

We cast the blame on the government we created to prop up our poor decisions and ease our troubles when the big bad wolf comes calling. How could big oil let this happen, I'm gonna sue.

Those childhood stories come back to haunt us as adults, huh? The big bag wolf is always out there.

DMT, I allow that you may be posting tongue-in-cheek, but responding to what you wrote, I agree with MH. I do not think it is reasonable to expect that the average homeowner should have a degree in engineering, water management, earthquake-ology, fire science, to be able to make these decisions. We have to depend upon gov't, who employs all these people.

It is instructive, I think, to read about some of the flood disasters in Ca:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_of_1862

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_flood_of_1938

And what happened as a result. LA was basically destroyed by the 1938 flood, but the measures that were enacted as a result, caused the much bigger event in 2005, to essentially amount to relatively little.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_flood_of_2005

It will be interesting to see if Houston is rebuilt in a similar fashion to mitigate a similar event in the future. Of course, that will involve taxing people to generate the money to build the protection, something that Repubs will resist out of natural disbelief.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 30, 2017 - 10:21am PT

The primary irresponsibility belongs to all the folks that built their homes of straw, on wet ground.

Just like the primary irresponsibility for homes going up in wild fires belongs to those home owners who located there. Its our own irresponsibility.

And all those people from Vancouver to San Diego living right over giant cracks in the earth - us, in other words.

We cast the blame on the government we created to prop up our poor decisions and ease our troubles when the big bad wolf comes calling. How could big oil let this happen, I'm gonna sue.

Those childhood stories come back to haunt us as adults, huh? The big bag wolf is always out there.

DMT,

You would like potential home owners to be savvy, and the obviousness of the danger varies, but rugged individualism isn't going to solve this problem.

If you are told that your house is not in the 100-year flood plain, even though it is, are you supposed to do your own flood study? If you can get a mortgage, should you be allowed to assume that your house meets earthquake codes?

I'm a little less sympathetic to people building expensive homes in drought prone forests, especially if they aren't capable of keeping brush and trees trimmed back from their home.

But regardless of who the finger should be pointed at, when an economic disaster strikes, tax payers foot the bill. Therefore, tax payers should elect politicians who won't allow this type of development.

New Orleans, Miami (and surrounding region) and Houston are going to be huge money pits for tax payers over the next 100 years. I don't see any political will to do anything about it. Except watch people argue over the causes as everything is built back in place so it can flood again.

Although at some point I would think that insurance and mortgage companies will pull out. But I fully expect that the government will step up to provide mortgage and insurance so developers can keep building in flood-prone areas.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 10:24am PT
While the liberal in me supports helping our fellow Americans, I cannot help but wonder if a national discussion of the merits of helping one another is not warranted. After all, Repubs seemed to, as a party, reject such helping philosophy when the target was NY and NJ.

It seem like this should be settled.

Should a local place, that refuses to impose reasonable building codes and preventive planning strategies, in an effort to save taxing themselves, be bailed out by the rest of us paying OUR taxes to do so?

Seems like a reasonable question.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2017 - 10:26am PT
Sorry, DMT, the only body that can prevent the stoopid Americans and Canadians from building in higher risk areas, and effectively manage construction in such areas, is government. Of course individuals will often take the (apparently) most economical option. And much development in high risk area pre-dates effective government regarding such things. But we know better now, and it'll take time to change. But we have to start somewhere.

That sounds suspiciously like regulation!

You know, that evil thing that kills business and jobs. We are on track to making America Great Again, and no burdensome regulation is going to get in the way of that. In fact, if you want more flood regulations, think of two more to get rid of. I suggest removing earthquake and fire safety regulations if you want to make flood regulations. It's the economy, stupid! ;)
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 10:32am PT
^Nelson
Riddle

So there are maybe 25-30 misguided wannabe anarchists in Berkeeley.

Where are the photos of the actual fascists (probably several thousand) who showed up in Charlottesville.

Do I have to send Mike down there?

c wilmot

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:04am PT
z brown- that's not even close to accurate.

According to the liberal SF gate:

"counterdemonstrators frustrated efforts by police, who numbered about 400. As the crowd swelled to several times that size, officers stepped aside and allowed hundreds of people angered by the presence of the right-wing rally to climb over the barriers into the park, said Officer Jennifer Coats, a spokeswoman for Berkeley police."

That's a lot more than 25 or 30. And we are to believe the Berkeley pd could not control the violent masked neo fascists... though it's more likely they were ordered to stand down and allow the attack to occur.

Also the antifa or neo fascists were INVITED to the rally by the so called peaceful left.

From the latimes.

"Jeff Conant, a member of an East Bay collective of anti-racist demonstrators known as Showing Up For Racial Justice, said march organizers asked allies in the antifa movement to “play a defensive role”

And they full well were expecting to be violent


"Those in the black hoods fell in with the marchers, while the lead truck for the march carried stacks of pastel-painted riot shields that anti-fascist demonstrators later raised against police."

"Participants further were told not to record the day on their cellphones, and urged to write a legal aid phone number on their arms in case of arrest"


It's as shameful as what happened in charletsville


monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:06am PT
Everybody there from the left was an anarchist?

Sheesh!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:10am PT
I wish you guys would make up your minds. Are the liberals a bunch of pansy social justice warrior snowflakes, or rampaging blood thirsty street thugs?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:17am PT
Trump would slash disaster funding to the very agencies he’s praising for Harvey response
c wilmot

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:18am PT
The "peaceful" leftist protestors invited known violent thugs. And they even planned to try an minimize self incrimination full well knowing they were going to commit violent acts.

You tell me who they align with
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:20am PT
Penny wise pound foolish
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 30, 2017 - 11:58am PT
invited known violent thugs

They don't need invites, Wilmot. You are quite disconnected from reality.
Norton

Social climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
invited known violent thugs

prove it, name of both the inviters and invitees, sources...
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
Look through the videos and photos and count them. Dudes.

From noted leftist commentator Alex Jones (do you Mr. Jones?) website


And while we're at it how about a few fascists



For comparative purposes only and the sake of conversation. Which group would you say constitutes a larger threat?



Based upon this video (say about @ :10), I'm gonna revise my estimate up to about 75-100 wannabees.

You'd think they could afford a cheap-ass car or at least a shotgun or two, no?

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Those "blackies" have me so skeered, I'm gonna go out and buy me some extra shells for my own shotgun.







Norton

Social climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
supply and demand maybe?
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
Anybody wonder why North Korea is not in this list? Then checkout Cambodia on down to Pakistan.

Ireland?


skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 30, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
Russia is -0.2%? Putin needs to start a war again. South America has some strong representation in the red.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 05:42pm PT

At a press conference Wednesday, Rich Rowe, Arkema's CEO said that if the volatile organic peroxides stored at the plant get too warm, some sort of explosion is inevitable.

"There is no way to prevent an explosion or fire," Rowe said.

Do these folks ever plan?

Ya kinda think about what sheeit_pile your sitting on and brainstorm [pun] about what could go wrong.

Why wasn't this plant in India where life is cheap, eh?


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 30, 2017 - 06:07pm PT
My brother lives 13 miles from the Arkema plant, he is waiting for it to blow. Texas has a reputation for lax regulation, it is good for the economy, not so good for everyone else.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
Lock THEM up. All the scumbags in Tejas.

Attica, Attica, ENRON, WASTE MANAGEMENT, BP - Deepwater Horizon ...

didn't Madoff live in Texas?

There are compounds, not on hand at Arkema, that would have prevented this.

N E G L I G E N C E!





Jorroh

climber
Aug 30, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
"Texas has a reputation for lax regulation, it is good for the economy"

Lax regulation is terrible for the economy.

Sure, for a few years a few actors can reap some profit while the externalities exponentially pile up. But sooner or later those external costs have to be paid... and when that happens the public picks up an enormous tab.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:42pm PT

Clearly the taxpayers don't want that sort of government, witness who we elect.

DMT

I have no optimism otherwise. As I said in my previous post, I expect tax payers will rebuild Houston back to pretty much what it was only to see more multi-billion floods in the next thirty years.

Not counting the current disaster, I image that just Houston, New Orleans, and southern Florida will cost Federal tax payers tens of billions of dollars per decade (long term average). Rebuilding the historic part of New Orleans, which was on the highest ground, was reasonable. Leaving the parts of the city that didn't flood, was defensible (although I expect it will flood in the not too distant future). Rebuilding the parts that flooded, was dumb.

If you had a benign dictator in charge, you would plan on abandoning southern Florida over the next 100 years or so.

Instead we will spend $100 of billions rebuilding it so it can flood again.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 30, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
White lawmaker in Georgia warns black attorney she may ‘go missing’ if Confederate statues are threatened
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 31, 2017 - 07:50am PT
Minced words?

“I don’t want the public thinking these are massive explosions,” Royall told reporters. Attempting to explain why the plant operator called them explosions while local authorities did not, Royall said: “We’re on the same page. It’s a matter of terminology. I call it a chemical reaction and an overpressure of the container.”

Gonzalez, the sheriff, said at a news briefing that the fumes created by the chemical reaction are “not anything toxic; it is not anything that we feel is a danger to the community at all.”

But federal authorities used dire language to describe the impact of those fumes: The chemical plume in Crosby is “incredibly dangerous,” William “Brock” Long, administrator of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said at a briefing Thursday morning.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 31, 2017 - 08:05am PT

Trump includes the worst recession since the Great Depression, which brings down the 10-year average. This chart shows that that quarterly average since the recession was well above 2 percent, even hitting 5 percent in the third quarter of 2014. The GDP growth rate for the United States averaged 3.22 percent from 1947 to 2017.


https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/files/2017/08/fredgraph-9.png&w=1484
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 31, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
I thought price gouging was the free market in action. Why the complaining from the small government types?

http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/31/news/hurricane-harvey-price-gouging/index.html
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Aug 31, 2017 - 04:12pm PT


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CeCK9BvZCc8

The racism that normally goes on every day in America behind closed doors, being exposed and aired nationally. Common, but eye-opening and disgraceful.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 31, 2017 - 07:11pm PT

El Trumpo taxes being reviewed now.



#Lockhimup



[

Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 10:08am PT
So I said I wasn't going to post for a while if again, certainly not politard stuff. But I just watched Pat Robertson and Kellyanne Conway discuss Trump's best trait, she said it was humility.

Humility? Trump? That has to be fake news. Every time he opens his mouth it is about him, himself, the Donald. Heck, he probably thought the hurricane should have been called Trump and not Harvey, so he wouldn't be upstaged.

I will also post this on the "not a big fan of Trump, but" thread, as it is hilarious. Trump and humility, the only time those two go to together is in this sentence.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 1, 2017 - 10:16am PT
Kellyanne Conway discuss Trump's best trait, she said it was humility.

Was she sober when she said it?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 1, 2017 - 11:18am PT
Pat Robertson also claimed he leg pressed 2000 pounds. Habitual liar

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13027545/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/robertsons--pound-lift-raises-eyebrows/#.WamjsNSGO70
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 1, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
Job growth lagged in August, with the economy adding a lower-than-projected 156,000 positions and the unemployment rate ticking up slightly to 4.4 percent.

where is the Trump-tweeter now?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Sep 1, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
Trump and humility; there's a song spoof in that somewhere, frolicking in the golden mist of Donald's fantasy.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 1, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
The whole Trump/humility thing is really IMHO just a demonstration of his staffers' humility. They're willing time and again to put their reputations and credibility on the line for that arrogant buffoon, because they believe in what they think he can accomplish. It's kind of admirable in a way. Did you see the size of his crowds?! Yuuuuge!
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 01:28pm PT
Okay it is KOS, liberal but if the feed from Christian Broadcast is to be believed, and is not techno-changed (my word), I think one never know what is real nowadays with the way technology can fake things...

...And then she says how how much Trump and his family have sacrificed for him to be POTUS. A lot of golf trips to his resorts, paid for by the taxpayer, I wish I could sacrifice that.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/8/30/1694627/-Watch-Kellyanne-Conway-tell-the-Christian-Broadcasting-Network-that-humility-is-Trump-s-top-trait

And there is a clip on that URL that also shows Donald saying he is a humble man.


Hmmm, did I miss the definition of humility and humble when I was growing up learning words?

Really, you cannot make this stuff up. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

And was Kellyanne Conway and Anne Coulter separated at birth? Nah, about a five year difference, but then Satan does work in mysterious ways.

(NB I also posted this on another thread, I mean, comedy should be spread about. We all need a good laugh from time to time.)

EDIT
I mean come on Trump supporters, you can bleat all you want about why you think The Donald is good, and his good points, but humility? You have to admit, regardless of whatever good points or faults he may have, humility is not his game.

The guy is psychotic, a sociopath at least, it is so obvious. And he is our POTUS? We have had some questionable Presidents, take your pick depending on your views. But even the die-hard Trumpsters on the Taco Stand must see, the guy is not playing with a full deck.

I want the best for my country, though I may not Iive there, certainly we can do better than The Donald.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 1, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
U.S. gains 156,000 jobs, unemployment rate up to 4.4 percent



now wait a minute!!!!!

As the conservative members of this forum have continuously reminded us, this unemployment rate is a fiction, and it is probably closer to 30% !!!!

All manipulated and contrived to look low by Trump!!!
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
Ken, I have been following this piece of sh#t POTUS. I have been following what his supporters say on this thread. I have responded, sometimes intelligently, sometime not.

You and I and others with our point of view are preaching to ourselves. The 'opposites' also have their views, and indeed some valid points. But the latter just do not seem to realize, in my eyes, what the stakes are. And when the sh#t hits the fan, perhaps then they will see, take notice and understand, their battle of what they believed America should be (whatever that may be) is in the hands of a nutcase.

I can understand their frustration with the system, and want for change. But they picked the wrong dude to do it.

Just look at Mr Trump, do you really want this guy to be your leader? Look long and hard. Because he is. Will he go down as the worst president ever, hmmm? He certainly will not go down as the best, I can predict that safely.

EDIT

Yes I live abroad. And at the risk of repeating myself and have some of my comments thrown back at me, some for example, a certain Jim in Canada, say that my posts are about myself (shades of Trump). Some posters also say that I have touted my American heritage and it is tiring. Apologies if my family facts get in the way, not.

I have a proud heritage in the US. I have lived abroad for years. But I still care about what my country is, does and stands for.

"Ewww. but you do not live here, you have no right to speak", some have said. "Why should you care or have a say?"

Do I care what happens on Lucy Lane or Boulevard Way, since I used to live on Juanita Drive? Do I care what happens in Lafayette or Walnut Creek, since I grew up in unincorporated Saranap. Do I care what Alameda County does, since I was only born and raised in Contra Costa County? Should I care what Nevada does since I am a Californian? Should I care what Canada or Mexico does because I am from the USA?

Do I care what my neighbor does?

Should I care about my country, even though I do not live there?

Do I not have a right to voice my opinion about the USA, even though I do not live there? Cannot I see and look from the outside, looking in?

To some, who have told me so, on this forum and elsewhere, no, I do not have such say since I do not live in the USA.

And I just say... Purple Haze is in my mind, tomorrow or just the end of time...

EDIT

And yes, I suppose much of this post is about me (satisfied Jimbo that I admitted such) but who in the hell else can I be speaking for? Of course this post is about myself, about my views. So I use the first person singular, so to speak. Do not most of you, including you Jimbo? Do not your egos (and ids) come out in your posts?

When you express a view, is it not your ego doing so? Are you not, in a way, speaking of and about yourself? So if a poster says that one of my posts is/was about myself, perhaps it is, and perhaps it is also about my viewpoint, valid or not, but yet, my right to have one. Of course my personality will come through in my viewpoint. It isn't rocket science you know.

EDIT
Of course my personality will come through in my viewpoint.

One can try their best to be objective (especially as a journalist), and one can, for the most part, succeed (I believe I have in many ways), but yet, there is still that subjective thought. As a reporter subjectivity must be denied, as an op-ed writer it will survive.

And I am sick and tired of all this BS of journalism being fake. I have worked with so many fine and good journos, who only want to report the facts, I have worked with these people in over five countries, on national's, TV and such. We are not fake. So f*#k you Trump and your ilk. we have more truth in our guts than you will ever have anywhere in your soul Donald, period.

And for those who what to believe the Donald, I pity you. I am not condescending when I write that, I truly feel sorry for you, as you are living a falsehood that will shatter.

Donald Trump is a charlatan. It is plain to see. I look at the post by the guy with the meme of looking at CNN's eyes at antifa (a bunch of extremist jerks, gosh, don't all sides have such elements, human nature I surmises) and, well newbie XYZ shows his (her) colors with his posts. Not original, but at least colourful, and very biased. Join the crowd xyz.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
And when any of you can claim to walk out of Number Ten alive after interviewing Maggie (an effing tough cookie, to say the least, pain in the ass more so, face to face), like I did (August 1989) then f*#king tell me what journalism is about.

Donald Trump is sh#t, his PR and press people are just the same.

Sure journalism and mass media have its problems and faults, I can attest to some of that, but we are still far better than Trump and his cow manure.

Yes much of the media, and journalism, is controlled by corporations, but the truth does well out, and there are plenty of damn good journalists out there. I have worked with some of them.

Again, f*#k Trump and his false Fake news claims. This guy lies every day more than a dog's turd. and he seems to believe his lies. Pathetic and psychotic.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 1, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
Journalism is about being dumb enough to be used as a means of propaganda
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
C Wilmot, if you believe that, so be it. Nothing I write will change your opinion. You are set in your mind.

But my experience about the reality of media says differently.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
Ignorance is bliss

Tis folly to be wise.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
Vlad, me boyo, would I be amiss to assume that your description of Maggie as 'difficult' largely derives from her unwillingness to make nice and answer according to the script? Might another substitute 'formidable' for 'difficult'? ;-)

ps
I assume you know that 'vlad' broadly implies 'power' in most Slavic tongues?
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
And pray tell C Wilmot, what is your experience of journalism? Of Mass Media? Outside of being the "listening chatterel", have you worked in the profession, the industry?

Do you even know what you write about? Honestly and truthfully, show your credentials and I will post mine.

Or do you just listen and read what comforts you? The echo chamber as it is being termed nowadays.

I post (pose) this question to all who are buying into Trumps' Fake News agenda. Actually, I pose this question to all fellow Taco Standers. What do you believe?

It is scary, the way that technology nowadays can make a person say something in a (for example) video when they never said it. The manipulation should concern us all, regardless of our political beliefs or ideology.

Truth has never been an easy path to understand, but it is getting harder to discern.©
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Yeah Reilly, Maggie sure was formidable. She almost spanked me. But then behind her, was... A senior aide, an aide, the Senior Press Officer, and a press officer, so, that includes Maggie, was five against one (me).

I think I did alright and I got the story I (and my readers) wanted. And Maggie did not cry (ala Trump nowadays) about what I wrote. She later complemented me on what I wrote. I have the letter somewhere. But does it matter? What matters is good journalism, a good leader (well, ideologically Maggie and I did not see eye to eye) and no bullsh#t.

Trump whimpers, at the very least, if he does not hear nice things about him.

Can you really compare the two?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
Maggie spanking a Vlad Pricker...I'm getting a visual...
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
John, you are incorrigible. Maggie did not spank me but I wondered if she wanted to. I disagreed with much of what she represented, but I did have respect for her, though if she had spanked me...


???


EDIT

RottingJohnny (I know who you are, gasp) I am hitting the sack now but your post made a good laugh before bedtime, and we all can use a good laugh in our lives.

At the end of the day folks, I think most of us agree, there is nothing like rock on the hands, or is that hands on the rock? I climbed today at Rocklands on the fringes of Wexford town, free solo (big deal the gorse is worse) Garnet (HVS, about 5.8+ 60 feet), The Spider (VS 55 ft), and Letus (HVS, about 5.9, 60 feet, and scared as sh#t, wish I had a rope). Effing gorse (and some stinging nettle), not as bad as rattlers on approach.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 1, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
A complementary letter to a clearly less than chummy you shows some class IMHO. You clearly had some formidable chops, my friend.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
Listen Reilly, Maggie may have been a... a tough nut, but what she was, was sincere.

For almost 40 minutes I sort of clashed with her (I was editor of Training Personnel, an HRD fortnightly out Wembley, she had just launched the TECs, Training and Enterprise Councils, for England and Wales (Scotland and Northern Ireland were sort of left out to their own devices, another story).

I tried to drive Maggie to more contemporary issues (read contentious, heck I am a journalist looking to stir up sh#t in a good way), she would have none of it.

All in all, a good interview. I got what I wanted she got what she wanted.

EDIT
I did not like Maggie Thatcher (RIP). Would I want her as a leader in a crunch (i.e. North Korea, yes a million time more than Donald Trump. But I think she handled the Falklands all wrong).

She was cordial with me (actually she said she liked American journalists, "they are so, understanding". What? How diplomatic.

EDIT

So for a brief few minutes I asked about training in Northern Ireland and how it could liaise with the Republic's training courses (in February 1987, when I was sub-editor on PASS, a fortnightly magazine -based out of Dartford, Kent, for part and newly-qualified accountants, I covered the student overall accountancy post-grad celebrations at the Slieve Donard in Newcastle Co Down, 1997).

I digress, I am good at that.

Maggie, she did not care about Northern Ireland nor Scotland. That was my take on it, perhaps I am wrong.

So Maggie said
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
Jim, damn I thought I was an experienced (I was) journalist at the time, but Maggie was one step ahead of me. And it was five again one (my excuse). Still, it was a good interview. I must have it somewhere.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 1, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Maggie Thatcher was a clever cookie. I did not approve of her politics or ideology (I told her that), nor the way she felt with the Irish troubles - partition, sectarian violence, the paramilitaries (both sides), and on and on.

Maggie, she did not seem to care much about the 'Irish Problem".

EDIT

Of course she was almost blown up by an IRA bomb in Brighton, but the topic of Ireland, as I found, was off limits in this interview. She knew the Irish problem.

And Cosmic, I can only guess you are trying to be funny with the illustration below, but please do not tell me that is the level of your knowledge.

And drF below this post, get a clue. I could, but will not, post my NUJ (National Union of Journalists) and IFJ (International Federation of Journalists) cards. As you do not warrant that consideration, even acknowledging your idiocy is more than you deserve.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 2, 2017 - 02:40am PT
Vlad can't make up his mind

Coming or going

Drunk or sober

Ignorant or self-loathing

A journalist he is most certainly kNOT

A real truther
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 2, 2017 - 05:45am PT
drF, yeah, right.

Your posts also explain a lot about you.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Sep 2, 2017 - 06:46am PT
Vlad Pricker:
So I said I wasn't going to post for a while if again, certainly not politard stuff. But I just watched Pat Robertson and Kellyanne Conway discuss Trump's best trait, she said it was humility.

Humility? Trump? That has to be fake news.
Vlad, I am envious.
It's nice to be young and naive and 100% trust liberal media.

We know that MSM posts only bad stuff about Trump.
So Trump's humility etc. would never get shown by MSM.

To strengthen your biased view of Trump just watch more MSMs and ignore all other sources of information.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 2, 2017 - 06:51am PT
Yury, and others, I sometimes wonder about my self-inflated purpose in life. Do you not often wonder about yourselves?

And to reply to your statement, the MSM as you call it gets it correct far more times than Trump does. Food for thought?

And Yury, I read a lot of different viewpoints, yes even Breitbart, but I draw the line at Drudge. And whether or not you believe me, I do not give a flying f*ck.

And drF, I am tempted to post the many articles I have written, on national newspapers, trade magazines, etc etc ad nauseam to prove that.... well, I am certainly a better and more experienced writer than you will ever be.

Now back to the topic.


EDIT

I have to laugh, you are having me on, right Yury?

So Trump's humility etc. would never get shown by MSM

Perhaps it is because Trump has never shown humility, so it would definitely be fake news to report his humility when he has never shown any. Does that answer your statement Yury?

EDIT (yet again)

Dianne Feinstein, who I have never been a big fan of, has received some flak for saying that Trump may still be a good president. Hmmm, she has since backtracked a bit (politicians, as bad as journalists and used car salespeople, not to mention real estate agents from New York, hah hah).

"Have patience", she said, he may still turn out to be a good president or words to that, uh uh, actually I am sort of at a loss for words.

Hmmm, yet again, hmmm. So now a prominent Democrat is saying that Trump may be good after all. Or did I get that wrong (not for the first time nor the last).

Wonders never cease.

I hear what she is trying to say, aside from any BS, if Trumpo can truly get his act together and be a leader, really show what America is about, with all of its diversity, really be the champion of the people (that he has shown not to be so far), and put aside his ego for the better of the nation, then I may show a bit of... not respect, not admiration, but perhaps appreciation if he can do this.

He is there, in the White House whether or not you like it, and I certainly do not like it, but we are stuck with him. What he decides can have ramifications for California as well as Ireland (where I live) and beyond, for climbing, for the environment, for a a heck of a lot, we all know that. Our fates, in some ways, are tied to this man.

The question is: well he become good, shed his ego and narcissism, use what little brain he has to realize, he has more than his base to answer to.

Wonders never cease.

Just to add, pushing people's buttons can be challenging, fun to some. I have some buttons of some posters I can push, but don't. As for me, my late sister Mary was the 'best' at pushing my buttons. She could wind me up like a clock.

Donald Trump is easy to wind up, he is so thin skinned. And that is probably one of his biggest faults.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 2, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Vlad Pricker...Quit fiddle farting around with the dunce boys on supertopo and finish my autobiography " Me , Myself , and Them " .. RJ
Norton

Social climber
Sep 2, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Vlad, how come you switched from Patrick Stewart username?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 2, 2017 - 09:33am PT
The alliance of Neocons and Zionist Jews last decade was sinister yet made tactical sense- this American/Eastern European nationalist, redneck and oligarch love affair is just plain queerness.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2017 - 10:40am PT
Texas Republicans Pushed to Kill Safety Regulations for Arkema Chemical Plant Before Explosion

Why?

To save money. To save hassle of compliance.

This is the "free market" response to safety (see "Three Mile Island")

And it works, because now the taxpayers of the US are going to pick up the tab for this "oversight".

Perfect Republican ideology: The private sector gets to keep the money saved from regulation and safety, and the public sector gets to pay for the disasters.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
What we have is actually far from a free market in terms of making companies pay for the cost of their doing business. It is only free in the sense of "anything goes" including government manipulation. The most successful companies use their initial power in the marketplace to change the government environment to ensure that there is an unfair advantage for the largest players, typically to the detriment of millions and millions of people. This is what many people associated with the Republican party call "Free Market".


Here's another example:

1) America's food production is mostly controlled by a handful of companies. They want to increase profits by lowering costs - getting cheaper corn-based ingredients.

2) Farmers can't produce corn as cheaply as the big food companies are willing to pay for it. If truly left to free market devices, the big companies wouldn't buy the corn or the corn growers would sell at a loss and instantly go out of business. The individual corn growers do not experience a free market- their business is typically with one major customer, and they are utterly dependent on the demands of that customer.

3) The big food companies lobby congress for corn subsidies, so the corn growers can sell to the big companies at a price below what it costs them! They stay in business because money is taken from every taxpayer in the USA and diverted to the corn growers so they can sell artificially lower to the handful of big food companies (Tyson, ConAgra, etc.) So really, this money is a diversion of USA taxpayer money to the handful of biggest food producers in the country.

4) In return for this favor of being subsidized by every taxpayer in the USA, these companies produce toxic food, in an environment with less and less oversight and accountability as time passes, and the increased profits from this system enable the companies to more deeply insinuate themselves into the political process.

Welcome to freedom in the 21st century. You are free to become as powerful as you are able to, and to do with that power what you will.

https://www.netflix.com/title/70108783
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 2, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
OK, I'll play your game a little

The Main Stream Media - agreed that it is represented by ABC, NBC, CBS, right?
These are the three regular broadcast news outlets, much larger circulation than the cable ones like CNN or MSNBC

More Main Stream Media - I assume you must mean the biggest circulation newspapers
That would be the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times
and followed by the next series of biggest cities in the USA - Houston, Miami, etc etc

OK we now have the Main Stream Media identified, correct?

Now to your attempt to denigrate the above MSM, like you believe they maybe "lie"
or misinform people, and do this quite regularly, correct?

How so? What does the MSM "lie" about, and "regularly"

I will wait for your long list of regular lies, and then we will move and examine the oh so credible sources that "conservatives" get their news from and we will examine those sources for accuracy of daily reporting, things like "regular lies"

and then we can compare them for credible source reporting, and see who really are the regular liars and who really is not

go, make your case that the above MSM is regularly lying to the American people
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
The two most worst biased American brainwashed loons ^^^ above give American media analysis of what is and what isn't true ......
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 3, 2017 - 08:09pm PT

drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 3, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
That took ALL day for Crankloon to come up with.

What a gem he is. That's why he's Crankloon

Check-in on this thread once a week to see the moron's gnashing of the teeth.

The daily politards here can't even begin to fathom what a waste they are.

Everyday committed to this on-line stupidity.

Barely breathing corpses

Butt..carry-on. It's really interesting. So leprous

Tune-in next week

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 3, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
drF... Thanks for the update on Crankloon.. I've been busy and missed his last post...Keep up the good work of keeping us in the loon... rj
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 3, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
Covefe anyone?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 3, 2017 - 10:34pm PT
drf: I am so tired of your schist!

You stole Craig Fry's ST login.

Mostly, you post nothing, but negative schist.

Lately, you seem to think we should accept you.

Not a chance.

WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 07:39am PT
There are two drF's. (drF & drf)

The one you are bitching about is drFantastic.

The one Fritz says was Craig Frys login is drfailed

Plus you can't have two identical logins by two different people.

So you are wrong again just as modern politics are always wrong again and again ....

(This has been a real st000pid public service announcement)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 4, 2017 - 09:29am PT
President Trump said he’d ‘deal with DACA with heart.’ It was a lie.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 4, 2017 - 09:32am PT
You know, for Texas, there is a massive amount of rebuilding to be done.
This, in a country with a nationwide shortage of construction workers.

It might not be a particularly good idea to deport the large number of illegal aliens who work in the building trades, at this time.

If you're Texan.

But it seems that Trump will continue to do what he is so good at: screwing his base of support.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 4, 2017 - 09:37am PT
With a brutal September to-do list, GOP is already clashing over Harvey relief, debt limit

President Trump and congressional Republicans are under intense pressure this month to score some significant policy victories and to fulfill such basic duties as avoiding default and keeping the government open. But the path to success continues to look politically perilous.

Aside from the beating up of those who cannot defend themselves, this stuff has the potential to financially cripple the country, possibly for decades. You wonder how we respond to a nuclear attack, when the confusion of a government shutdown is happening?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 09:37am PT
Vlad posted
Our fates, in some ways, are tied to this man.

To put it into perspective, what you eat for breakfast has far more impact on your life.
The federal gov't is like a giant rock rolling downhill, with politicians running in front saying "follow me".
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2017 - 10:19am PT
And speaking of education...
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/4/16251226/russia-ai-putin-rule-the-world
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 4, 2017 - 10:48am PT
Great article Nut, an eye opener for those people who think Trump can not seriously damage America's future.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 11:35am PT
The only enemy is your very own self.

Nothing outside of oneself is the real problem.

Outside of ones self are only temporary problems according to time and circumstances.

Onself creates the material world and it's problems of which the self is not even a real part of.

This is why American politards are always st000pid .....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 4, 2017 - 11:53am PT

Alt er en overgang, sa reven, han ble flådd...
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
Can anyone here understand Russian?

Yesterday, the link to this video was posted to a feed I follow, and the response was "Holy sh#t - they just made a statement of threat to DT that implied not impeachment, but much, much worse." Apparently one of the persons says (paraphrase) "Not all presidents complete their terms. Look at history." The commenters seemed to be pretty shocked and felt it was a fairly overt threat, in the manner that Russians communicate such things(which is a complex cocktail of mocking humor, subtle patronization, and controlled delivery, compared to western ways). Like we might say "I'm gonna kick your azz into the next week," but a Russian might say ....well, look at the clip where Sergey Lavrov, after being introduced to the press by Tillerson, is asked by a reporter about Comey's firing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6h2ID_fAA&feature=youtu.be&t=85

People asked for translation but it is a long piece and the comments pretty much all agreed - The statement is that Trump is as disposable as the plastic water bottles he has commanded should be allowed for sale in our National Parks.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 4, 2017 - 02:55pm PT
tRump is like a bad one-night stand, that some people wish they could forget, but know it is going to cost them in the long run.
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 4, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
^^^^

comedy, indeed.



according to bill maher, the average c.e.o. makes 380 X the average worker.

and according to celebritynetworth.com [an admittedly somewhat dubious source] bill maher makes $10000000/yr or based on an average american's salary of $40000/yr a-barely-getting-by of 250 X the average worker.



a big part of the reason for the above situation is that all of the entities that like to remind us of how we should be outraged [on the left people like bill maher, or arianna huffington and her "post"; and on the right, good ole fox news, or for the sake of symmetry matt drudge and his "report"] is that all of it is ultimately there only to momentarily entertain/get-clicks-from us.

arianna needs her sleep, matt needs his potato chips, bill needs his pot and the murdochs... well they need money to pay off all of the sexual assault cases against their employees... hahaha.

and so there is really no motivation for any of them to advocate for actual change. they are just there to entertain or if nothing else give us a momentary outlet for our annoyance/frustration.

oh well... and so it goes...

as always, all will be well as long as we have our bread and circuses.
WBraun

climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 05:30pm PT
Right you are ^^^^ as America, in general, is sooo shallow .....

https://www.newsbud.com/2017/08/29/breaking-journalist-interrogated-sacked-for-exposing-cia-nato-arming-of-terrorists/
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 4, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
Newsbud? Deep State? Friends and relatives of mine have fought on the front lines, behind the lines and in the darkest of places so you can have a safe place to read that sh#t. Enjoy...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
Not old yellow stain, the OrangeMeister hissownself.

Even Queeg in his dementia was never a KKK supporter.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 4, 2017 - 07:51pm PT


Yanqui si,
Corea del Norte no


On Sunday, it tested a bomb underground, which was thought to have a power range from 50 kilotonnes to 120 kilotonnes. A 50kt device would be about three times the size of the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima in 1945.


Kim Jong-un 'begging for war'
-Nikki 'Don't Call Me an Experienced Woman" Haley

Suicide knobs and doors selling like hotcakes in NorKor.

Oh please Mr. Postmen and Women send up your analyses of the sitch.


Kim-mobile



Overshadowed by North Korea's sixth nuclear missile test Sunday were reports President Donald Trump could terminate the U.S.-South Korea free-trade agreement as soon as this week. Talk about bad timing.With tensions rising on the Korean peninsula, Trump's brash trade talk will probably take a backseat to the more pressing problem of preventing nuclear war. But even without North Korea's recent escalation, it seems unlikely America will totally quash the 2012 trade pact, known as KORUS.


So even though South Korea represents the U.S.'s seventh-largest trading partner, the North Asian nation sells a lot more than it buys: America's goods trade gap with South Korea was $27.7 billion in 2016, more than double the $11.9 billion deficit in 2007.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 4, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
"Newsbud". LOL, that explains it. They take castoffs from Infowar's, that's what a whackjob site it is. They are one of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth/Inside job nuttiness.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 4, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
drf: I am so tired of your schist!

You stole Craig Fry's ST login.

Mostly, you post nothing, but negative schist.

Lately, you seem to think we should accept you.

Not a chance.

Schist Schist Schist Fritz! Settle down man.

I stole nothing. I'm drF...deal with it

I post positive stoke....cept' on the d#@&%e-bag politard threads where full ridicule is apropos.

"Lately you".."Accepting" of me?...my desire of such?

Really...is that what you want? I move way faster than you in everything. Just sayin'

Put down that skin bong sir

In the mean time....Ken M copy/pastes altered statements then throws his medicated twists into the mix.

He keeps the turds afloat. Talk about a pure scien-schist..lol
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 4, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
DrF = The Chief. Painfully obvious. I'm surprised the brain trust here hasn't figured that out yet.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
Amidst all the crazy stuff, there are people fighting for what is right to make a more representative and accountable government:
http://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Schwarzenegger-s-bipartisan-next-political-act-12170898.php?google_editors_picks=true
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 4, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
Why don't we replace all the Lee statues with this guys:

Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (born Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, September 8, 1828 – February 24, 1914)[3] was an American college professor from the State of Maine, who volunteered during the American Civil War to join the Union Army.

He became a highly respected and decorated Union officer, reaching the rank of brigadier general (and brevet major general). He is most well known for his gallantry at the Battle of Gettysburg, for which he was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Chamberlain was commissioned a lieutenant colonel in the 20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment in 1862 and fought at the Battle of Fredericksburg. He became commander of the regiment in June 1863.

On July 2, during the Battle of Gettysburg, Chamberlain's regiment occupied the extreme left of the Union lines at Little Round Top. Chamberlain's men withstood repeated assaults from the 15th Regiment Alabama Infantry and finally drove the Confederates away with a bayonet charge.



In other words, they brought knives to a gunfight (they were out of ammo), and WON.




He was the last Civil War veteran to die as a result of wounds from the war and considered by some the last casualty of the war
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:00am PT
Notes: Newsbud (NB) is a right wing, conspiracy and anti-government site founded by, among others, Kurt Nimmo, the former lead editor and writer for Infowars.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/newsbud/
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:33am PT
NorKor may want war?

The Hill is reputedly a centrist site.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/foreign-policy/349208-north-korea-may-actually-want-war
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:50am PT

Meanwhile DACA death knell is sounded.
I am sure Tim Cook is thrilled that he can replace the best and brightest at Apple with core trump voters who according to all avail data have less education, less motivation and less get up and go to retrain and move to where the jobs are, than 65% of Americans who do not support the DT's.
But of course all that's fake news and corporations will be falling over themselves to hire folks like the trump supporters on ST secure in the knowledge that they will drive their businesses forward with unbridled innovation.
MAGA!

I can't wait until cosmic starts writing code.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 5, 2017 - 10:56am PT
Trump believes it's better to eat like sh#t and not exercise because he lives in bizarro world. Along with anyone who still supports him. No sense trying to explain anything to or reason with these people because they believe in the opposite of reality. Fake reality if you will.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Re. NutAgain!'s post upthread

Amidst all the crazy stuff, there are people fighting for what is right to make a more representative and accountable government:
http://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Schwarzenegger-s-bipartisan-next-political-act-12170898.php

^^^ What a decent, smart and patriotic American!
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 5, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
10b
suggest we focus on demolishing the issues of the lackeys of the 1%, not the personalities, that goes nowhere imho

I thought my comment was rather innocuous.
You know, myself, and other people with left leaning opinions have been called all kinds of names by the conservatives on this site.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 5, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
Cosmic... Where did you learn code...? rj
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
Obama order unconstitutional ? (DACA)

Trump rescinding order likewise?

Aren't the courts the arbiters of these issues and not emperor QT(queegtrump)?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 5, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
As to the Trump supporters???...

hey, they are good. honest, hard working, tax paying citizens never accepting handouts just trying to get by
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
never accepting handouts
Handouts is exactly what this is all about. The Nationalist want to isolate our trade and labor markets so I have to pay a drywaller $70 bucks an hour to sling mud. And it'll be f*#king great and so satisfying to my homeowner's because he'll be a white Christain dude listening to Rush on the radio....can't wait!
c wilmot

climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
If the construction industry was forced to hire legal workers at a reasonable wage it would bring back a lot of middle class jobs. I don't see a downside
c wilmot

climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
I am fine with paying more for ethically produced food. I don't feel it's right to exploit workers as a means of keeping food costs artificially low and unethical farmers artificially rich
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 5, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
Tad.... only problem with the song..... It was Arab, Muslim, slave traders, and the practice of slavery continues to this very day!



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Sep 5, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
...and an onion costs you three bucks...

That onion already costs three bucks. The farm gets to pay its workers sh*t, but it's passing the real costs, social costs, of that labor on to the rest of us. The other thing is that cheap labor stifles innovation. If that farm's labor costs went up to market value you can bet your ass that they'd start finding ways to save $. And yes, that would certainly include automating a lot of what their peons do today.

Regarding the rescinding of the DACA, I think this could be a good thing. Here's why. The ball just got passed back to Congress, but with what a poison pill. This could end up being the time when Congress actually has to make decisions on immigration reform. What Trump's decision does is to put things back to where they were before President Obama's executive order, which did step outside of Constitutional boundaries. Congress has been complaining about this ever since. Now it's their turn.

Nothing about this is a done deal yet. For starters there are enough Republicans in Congress who don't want to have to defend this in their next election, so they will balance the scales. It's time to quit kicking the ball down the road. Trump wants to trade some sort of amnesty deal in exchange for sealing the border.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 5, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
I hope Melania enjoyed her time in the States.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 5, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
The Nationalist want to isolate our trade and labor markets so I have to pay a drywaller $70 bucks an hour to sling mud.

Rewarding hard work is downright anti-American. Wall Street paper shufflers and financial scammers, they deserve the money. Hard work is for saps.

Trump wants to trade some sort of amnesty deal in exchange for sealing the border.

And cut off the supply of cheap labor? No way the politicians allow that.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
She doesn't need to worry. High-end Eastern European escorts will always find safe harbor in in the good 'ole US of A.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
If the construction industry was forced to hire legal workers at a reasonable wage it would bring back a lot of middle class jobs. I don't see a downside

It wouldn't and what is a legal worker? A cop?

We've been all through that. Overpaid, underqualified, 49% thugs.





Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
The lack of understanding basic economics here is frightening.

Wages for low skill remedial jobs fall under minimum wage laws and fair labor practices which Republicans always fight anyways. The days of hiring illegals for the vast majority of small business owners are long gone.

The point here is to have real life incentive to be the drywall subcontractor and not the drywaller or to be the electrical subcontractor and not the electrician or own a produce market and not harvest the produce. These small businesses are the foundation of our economy and rely on affordable labor. Otherwise I'll have to pay Wade (the hypothetical white guy) $70 and hour to do a job that takes no special skills or no special tools. I should be paying Pepe $25 an hour to do that job so I can pass the savings to a middle-class family who may want to do an addition to their home so they have room for an elderly parent.

Wade is getting way too much attention these days! Wade should get off his ass and start doing something worth a damn and stop crying for handouts from Trump. And furthermore; who do you think will be coming after your white collar job someday- Wade's grandkids or Pepe's grandkids? This is about perspective, hunger and urgency (the fuel of a free society) and not what color you are or where you come from.




Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
Arrogance, warmongering, and greed. That's all that borders are good for and all they'll ever represent. Fat assed authoritarian political bullshit is all this is (reversing DACA). You won't change anyone's minds or ever be un-enslaved by forcing your laws on the innocent at the barrel of a weapon, and don't expect not to be treated likewise when or if it becomes your turn to be turned out and disenfranchised. They should save all their blustering and threats, those police state nation morons.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
Otherwise I'll have to pay Wade (the hypothetical white guy) $70 and hour to do a job that takes no special skills or no special tools

[Click to View YouTube Video]

No special skills?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
no special skills needed, other than knowing how to climb a ladder

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:36pm PT
gee, that small business owner should be commended for thinking about that middle class family that is going to benefit because he is going to pass on the labor savings to them

in my 45 years of working and owning five companies I have never, ever, met a fellow small business owner who really honestly gave a damn enough to not personally pocket his own labor cost savings but instead to lower his profit and charge someone less money for the job

kind of like old and defeated by pesky facts income tax theory
theory says cut the taxes for the already rich and they will be so grateful that they will, instead of just pocking the tax cut money, go out and "create" jobs for all those other people they have been worried about

Kansas just find out, duh, that old man Conventional Wisdom is wrong again
Kansas hugely cut taxes and the Republican congress and governor promised the state that businesses would just flock, rush, to Kansas in gratitude for paying less tax, and therefore more jobs would be "created" and all jobs would result in more state income tax collected

only problem is, it did not work, period, instead everyone pocketed the tax cuts and of course did not rush out and create jobs for other people, and the state of Kansas is right now in such a terrible school closing crisis and exploding state budget that, yes, all those Republican congressmen just voted to, gasp, raise taxes. They were wrong.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
Contractor is right! Rewarding hard work is bullsh#t.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
Pepe gets 25/hr. The drywall contractor he works for pays unemployment, workmans comp, the rig he takes to work, etc. He has to make something as the middle-man, or labor retailer, so he averages out his cost around 50/hr. The GC that hires the sub makes the calls, checks on progress, bullshits with the customer and tacks on his profit, 10-25 percent. Viola - 60-75/ hour. Its not rocket science. It's business. If you want to save money on labor, cut out the multiple middleman. Citizenship/immigration status isn't the driving factor in building costs.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 5, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
C. wilmot! Re your statement:
I am fine with paying more for ethically produced food. I don't feel it's right to exploit workers as a means of keeping food costs artificially low and unethical farmers artificially rich


Living in a rural agriculturtural state, with lots of latinos, I can't help but notice that first generation latinos feed the cows, milk the cows, slop the pigs, irrigate the crops, & clean up the schist from the cows & pigs. They also wash the dishes, bus the tables, mow the lawns, & provide a lot of of the construction workers.

In contrast, our 2nd generation latinos work in retail stores, run construction, lawn-care, resturant, & farm companies. They also work as lawyers, bankers, & real estate salespeople.

I can't imagine many of our current high school grads being willing to take those first generation latino jobs that form the base infrastructure of Idaho's economy.

Do you know any high school grads that want to work a hard 12 hour day in 100 degree heat, feeding & milking cows, & cleaning up hot cow-schist & pee, for $12.50 an hour? Or in your fantasy, at a slightly higher wage?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
Norton, the "tax cuts for the rich" model doesn't apply here. I'm certainly not accumulating wealth at the detriment of my fellow man. I'm Progressive and feel that my taxes are very fair. I also pay my employees and subcontractors well and we have very little turnover in that regard.

If contractor A lowers their prices as a result of cheap labor and contractor B just pockets the savings, who do you think lands the jobs and who sits at home watching Fox & Friends?

Of course I pass on the savings to my clients- that's why I've owned one successful business for 15 years and not 5 Businesses.

So again, if you're a really fast ditch digger you should get paid well for "ditch digging" and not expect the wage of an ICU nurse-f*#k!

And if you're satisfied getting paid 25 bucks an hour slinging mud on stilts, that's fine but if you want $50, you'll be home watching Fox & Friends with Contractor B.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
F- I love that analysis!! There are certainly savy homeowner's that cut me out and pull it off well. I've also seen my fair share of contractor's that hangout, bullshit and tack on 20% for their "management skills" and still f*#k up the job.

That being said- don't ever underestimate what it takes to build a million dollar home on time and on budget. I've seen many people loose their life savings thinking they can walk off the street and do what I do.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 5, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
LMAO.. still f*#k up the job...
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 5, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
Jimbo - Don't get hypersensitive about being a middleman. Somebody has to herd the cats. I know. I have a custom electric pussy prod that's worked great for me for a long time.

Contractor- it's a rather simplistic explaination, but lays it out there. I also have seen folks dick the dog big time trying to make it happen (usually engineers and M.D. types.)

I've also seen competent, hardworking, common sense folks build and complete a sweet place of their their own worth 750k for far less than that by cutting out the middleman. (No Mexicans or pussies were harmed).

Pay a welder 2500 to do some column work. Or, buy a used welder for 1500, learn how, and do it yourself instead of going to the bar. Then you own a welder and have knowledge. To each their own.

I see both sides of the coin all the time. I made 5k this month in a few phone calls and visits to a project watching the mariachi band (sheetrockers) do their thing. I'm also painting the inside and outside of a rental property myself rather than pay some knuckleheads 5k to do it. Although, if I could find an undocumented illegal alien to cut in 10 post and beam sets with black paint for 10$/hr I'd be all over it.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 5, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
I'm in Jim, cheers to the working man! And I've seen your nice work F... Kumbaya!
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
^^^
Gibberish.
Have another whiskey.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
How many woodchucks does it take to brush a porcupines teeth?
8. Because pancakes and ice cream taste better in July.
Jesus Jim.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
Drumpf also has an ulterior motive in his DACA decision. The elimination of any potential anti Drumpf votes in 2020
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 09:35pm PT

/
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 5, 2017 - 10:18pm PT
The grim tale of America’s “subprime mortgage crisis” delivers one of those stinging moral slaps that Americans seem to favor in their histories. Poor people were reckless and stupid, banks got greedy. Layer in some Wall Street dark arts, and there you have it: a global financial crisis.

Dark arts notwithstanding, that’s not what really happened, though.

Mounting evidence suggests that the notion that the 2007 crash happened because people with shoddy credit borrowed to buy houses they couldn’t afford is just plain wrong. The latest comes in a new NBER working paper arguing that it was wealthy or middle-class house-flipping speculators who blew up the bubble to cataclysmic proportions, and then wrecked local housing markets when they defaulted en masse.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 6, 2017 - 05:31am PT
The ensuing student-loan collapse should be far more entertaining.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 6, 2017 - 05:38am PT
Those damned architects, engineers, lawyers

So the guys who take the POS plans drawn up by some architect or engineer and fix them so they actually work deserves to earn squat?

And lawyers, of course, add value where ever they go.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 6, 2017 - 07:42am PT
Recent research—particularly that by Antoinette Schoar, a finance professor at MIT Sloan—has been helping rewrite the received wisdom of the “subprime crisis” that has blamed the crisis on poor, reckless borrowers for the better part of a decade. Schoar’s work reveals that borrowing and defaults had risen proportionally across income levels and credit score, but that those with sounder credit ratings drove the rise in delinquencies. This new paper’s investigation into the habits of middle- and upper-income real estate speculators in the run-up to the crisis marks yet another chapter of the history books in desperate need of revision.




zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 6, 2017 - 08:29am PT
^As Lady MacBeth used to say "out damned spot"*

It is interesting that it has taken 10 years to get this research done and published, though.


Meanwhile

Members of the clubs Trump has visited most often as president — in Florida, New Jersey and Virginia — include at least 50 executives whose companies hold federal contracts and 21 lobbyists and trade group officials. Two-thirds played on one of the 58 days the president was there, according to scores they posted online.

Because membership lists at Trump’s clubs are secret, the public has until now been unable to assess the conflicts they could create. USA TODAY found the names of 4,500 members by reviewing social media and a public website golfers use to track their handicaps, then researched and contacted hundreds to determine whether they had business with the government.

Anyone checked on QueegTrump's course in Scotland lately?

"Macbeth shall never vanquished be, until Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill Shall come against him."


*Well technically

LADY MACBETH
(rubbing her hands) Come out, damned spot! Out, I command you! One, two. OK, it’s time to do it now.—Hell is murky!—Nonsense, my lord, nonsense! You are a soldier, and yet you are afraid? Why should we be scared, when no one can lay the guilt upon us?—But who would have thought the old man would have had so much blood in him?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2017 - 08:44am PT
When the crime becomes large enough, people stop perceiving it as a crime. It becomes an abstract thing and people don't have the same sense of righteous indignation.

We can grasp the idea of a shoplifter stealing a car- they go to jail for that. Most humans cannot perceive the equivalent of every resident in Los Angeles stealing a car. And yet, that is the magnitude of the crimes for which some individuals in this world are responsible.

Even if Trump is impeached and leaves in disgrace, it will still have been a wildly profitable financial transaction for him (unless it kills his brand image, but it seems at most it would just shift his target markets). If he can stay in for a full term, he may end up one of the richest men on the planet. Maybe it would take two terms, because there is strong competition.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 6, 2017 - 08:48am PT
"Pay a welder 2500 to do some column work. Or, buy a used welder for 1500, learn how, and do it yourself instead of going to the bar. "

This is amusing. I guess if your regular job pays you in the same general zone as the welder, sure. But the decision on my end is more like:

Pay a welder 2500, or spend 20 hours finding, buying, transporting and then learning to use a welder, another few hours doing the job, and a lifetime wondering if I got it exactly right. Or, I could just do my own damn job, where I make about 8x what that welder makes, enjoy my time off instead of f*#king around researching welding machines and welding, dealing with flakes and general craigslist scammers when trying to buy one, and then be reasonably confident the job was done better than I could have without practicing for 3 years.

"False economy" bro, look it up.

One you reach a certain age, you start to realize time is the most valuable thing you have, it's worth far more than a little money and unless I expect to reuse that gained skill many, many times, it's stupid to DIY unless you're stone broke and have no other way to accomplish the work or there is no skill component involved.

If you happen to deal with 6" steel frequently, and have a few rainy days to figure it out, the time investment is well worth it. And while I'm sure you're an uber successful individual, the $200 an hour I get for occasional metal joining, and the convenience of not having to track down someone else to do it (time) well.... If that's false economy, I'll take it.
Working from the neck up and wrist down are not mutually exclusive.


Somebody- If you're in Torrance, swing by Wilson park some time and check out the handicap accessible treehouse there. I wasted a lot of time on that....

Just to try to veer back on topic...

F*#k Trump and the one pump he rode in on.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 6, 2017 - 08:59am PT
One you reach a certain age, you start to realize time is the most valuable thing you have, it's worth far more than a little money and unless I expect to reuse that gained skill many, many times, it's stupid to DIY unless you're stone broke and have no other way to accomplish the work or there is no skill component involved.

Some people actually enjoy learning new things, like welding for instance. So for them it's time well spent regardless of actual financial benefits... I learned welding years ago and have had great fun with it doing simple repairs and making all sorts of things. Might have even broken even in the $$ sense...

IMO, skills are worth many times more than stuff that might have been otherwise purchased with the same $$. Those same skills leave you in a more informed place when deciding to when to farm out that failing weld in the reactor core pressure vessel to a professional.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 6, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Very interesting piece by Yonatan Zunger:

What can be Pardoned?
Some unexpected ins and outs of an executive power

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/what-can-be-pardoned-bd113749898a
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 6, 2017 - 10:37am PT
I think we can all safely say that if you're not doing it my way, you're doing it wrong.

It kind of goes for the how and why you and I believe things too. If you're not believing things in the ways and for the reasons that I believe things (regardless of whether you believe the same thing as me) then you're doing this believing thing wrong.

I believe it's easy for me to tell that about you, whoever you may be :-)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 6, 2017 - 10:48am PT
This pretty much wraps up the differences between Dem and Repub supporters and voters

*A new WSJ/NBC poll shows: "More than three-quarters of Democrats, but less than one-third of Republicans, said they felt comfortable with societal changes that have made the U.S. more diverse."

*The same poll showed a radical shift in Democratic views about immigration over the past decade: In 2005, just 45% of Democrats said the country was strengthened by immigration. Now the share is 81%
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Sep 6, 2017 - 10:52am PT
Well, there was another survey/poll out of Dartmouth that says both republicans and independents are more willing to room with someone who has differing political views than democrats on campus.

Lots of division right now, and blaming the other side isn't going to help one iota.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 6, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
College kids? that is understandable then Brandon, thanks for pointing that out

by the way, is posting polling survey results really dividing people? didn't thing so...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 6, 2017 - 03:54pm PT
The fact that so many people can't see tRump for what he really is still baffles me.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 6, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
Snowflake in peril alert!

American Horror Story:Cult

On FX.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 6, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
Menendez, a Democrat and New Jersey's senior senator, is charged with doing official favors for his friend and co-defendant, Florida eye doctor Salomon Melgen, in exchange for expensive hotel stays, private jet flights and hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions.


Sounds like Trump and Nixon and me!
-Fat Leonard


Their convictions will all be overturned by the courts and if not I'll pardon them.
-Geraldo Ford

Many people who voted for me are asssholes!
-Donald QueegTrumpu
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 6, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
I still say, for my dollar, uh, euro, I get more entertainment out of the Taco Stand that anywhere else. That said, the only TV I get are in DVDs, I get no reception because, it costs. Hah hah.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 6, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
DACA has been before the court and left in tact which implies that Mr.Obama did not overstep his legal authority.

He definitely did not overstep his moral authority!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 6, 2017 - 09:29pm PT
However calling all those who voted for President Trump 'as#@&%es' is as decisive as it gets.

I guess the issue is settled then. ;-)
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 7, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
FWIW: Betsy DeVos reverses policy . . .

The rules — set forth [by Obama] in a memo now known as the "Dear Colleague Letter" — told schools [higher ed] they must investigate and resolve all complaints of sexual assault, even if there is a separate criminal case. They also established what has become a polarizing standard of evidence used to judge cases.

Unlike in criminal courts, where guilt must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, colleges were told to judge students based on whether it's "more likely than not" they committed the offense. (AP)


I watched this process unfold locally, with the young man suing the university in federal court and receiving a cash settlement. The young lady said the sex was by mutual consent, but one of her friends said she thought it might not have been. The "Director of Inclusion" adjudicated the case on campus.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 03:03pm PT



Not Thorp, Trump.


Senate approves Trump's debt deal with Democrats

Shades of Bannon. Are the Demon_crats learning how to manipulate El Trumpo!

Probably not. They are verrrry slow learners.

Well they'll have more chances

Trump Reaches Out to Make More Deals With Congressional Democrats



Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 7, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
They are verrrry slow learners.

unlike Trump voters

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 7, 2017 - 03:15pm PT

He doesn't look too happy.

Now to get rid of the rest of the John Birchers running our government.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 7, 2017 - 04:24pm PT

You are [A] one of us or not for us or against us

Look at the colour of the above shirt [Trump], Been years but have been called a "Pinko" a number of times. But not his kind.

Note: for some reason some letters cut out and in bold not my doing.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
Here's a national policy issue that (hopefully) doesn't have anything to do with Trump yet, but he is in a position that should be doing something about it:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/07/549296359/hackers-accessed-the-personal-data-of-143-million-people-equifax-says


The basic problem is that technology has evolved more rapidly than our antiquated systems of providing security to the masses. We still rely on ink signatures and social security numbers to represent us in many different systems. The three main credit reporting agencies are fundamental to the fluidity of cash and transfer of assets and granting of trust related to work and employment in our society. These institutions are vulnerable and now publicly admitted to being insecure, so no information provided by these agencies can really be trusted.

Fundamentally, we need a cryptographically secure mechanism to identify individuals, and a mechanism to assert their signature on documents, transactions, and communications. Putting initials at the bottom of each page on written contracts is so cheese-ball compared to having a math formula that "hashes" or blends all the data together along with a cryptographic signature so that all parties can mathematically verify that no contents have been changed after a person has signed it. This technology has existed for decades, but we still rely on old-fashioned stuff and a "secret" identity value in the form of our social security numbers that are re-used across multiple domains (a big security no-no) and there is no routine of changing it periodically.

One example of a proper security system would employ a private signing key and a public validation key, and a mechanism for individuals to acquire new public/private key pairs through a central certificate authority. This is called a "Public Key Infrastructure" or PKI. This is basically the same technology of "web certificates" when you go to a website with an address that begins with https://

These certificate authorities used for personal identification should be guarded as if they contain nuclear launch codes, because all financial transactions and medical records and business contracts and everything we value in this world should be anchored by this infrastructure. It is silly that a few pubic companies have consolidated the power of reputation and trust to safeguard our personal identity and all things of material value in this world tied to our identities. Where we now have FICO scores and such tied to a flaky compromisable social security number, we should have all such data (and all financial transactions) tied to public/private personal keys.

Even this model is not really state of the art any more. Centralized certificate authorities are ultimate prizes that attract attention, from individual hackers to state-sponsored efforts to compromise them. Better models are evolving that require multiple certificate authorities and related parties to collaborate before issuing a certificate signature. For example:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03370

These models would be a big step up in security, but ultimately could still be vulnerable to state-sponsored and/or well-funded espionage attacking multiple targets to orchestrate a security compromise.

In any case, this stuff strikes at the heart of the financial well-being for each of us, unless we keep our assets in cash under a bed or gold or other barter-worthy commodities.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Yes DMT. Both were headlines.

Re "reach for the sky"

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2017/09/07/trump-reaches-out-to-make-more-deals-with-congressional-democrats/

I will backtrack and find the article showing Bannon "guiding" Trump down the garden path as it were.



zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
As to Lil' Trump

Trump Jr. said he was not aware of what role, if any, his father might have played in drafting an early explanation of the meeting that was widely criticized as misleading.

This is an outright lie which will come back (with many others) to haunt him.

Oh, pardon me, not haunt, make him "uncomfortable" for a while.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 7, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
No-one ever accused Bannon of being a damn partisan.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Oh f*#k that, they're all my enemies :-)

Viva the living! Or die ...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 06:31pm PT

President Trump tweeted out that his hurricane crew is already in Florida, bracing for Irma. But he’s also aware that some of his own properties could be at risk of being slammed by the storm.
john hansen

climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
I wonder how his beach front home on Saint Marteen came thru?

They recently dropped the price from 28 million to 11.

Have not seen any pictures yet though it looks like the was hit hard.


Edit:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/richard-bransons-virgin-islands-home-destroyed-by-hurricane-irma-2017-09-07
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 7, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
No-one ever accused Bannon of being a damn partisan.


and no one ever accused Nancy Pelosi of being a Democrat
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 7, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
John Hansen! Re your question about our beloved president:
I wonder how his beach front home on Saint Marteen came thru?

My wealthy ex-brother-in-law owned a quaint beach cottage on Little Cayman Island, south of Cuba, that blew away in a hurricane.


A few years later he built an ocean-side house on solid rock on nearby Cayman Brac. That house was a solid 3-bedroom modern home, that I felt quite esteemed to visit. It also blew away in a hurricane.

We can only hope that our beloved president has similar luck with his hurricane shore properties.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 7, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
not to mention the hope of many that his elite golf club, Mar A Largo, gets blown away by Hurricane Irma
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 7, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Maybe, maybe (sounds so much more impressive when you repeat yourself) if Professor and Constitutional scholar Trump pardons all the dreamers, they'll reciprocate by rebuilding his stuff for him, eh? (Below minimum wage I tell ya).

Would love to see his insurance claims?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 7, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
I hope Trumps Herpes gets blown away...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:03am PT
just some "nice folks" carrying a torch for Hitler

[Click to View YouTube Video]
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:04am PT
.....

He cited Mitch McConnell as in the center of his crosshairs (my phrase, not his).

I think this is all great news. I hope he gets his man, and Lying Ryan too. I'll be blunt - I would prioritize the evisceration of the congressional GOP leadership over that of getting President Trump out of the white house.

But that's probably just me.

DMT Quote Here

It's me too DMT......


Question for you HRC types.... Have you read the book???

I had to listen this am to HRC speaking about her book... Man oh man I am so happy she did not become president, what a screech owl.



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:37am PT
I had to listen this am to HRC speaking about her book...

Good God why? Were you imprisoned?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 13, 2017 - 10:40am PT
Good God why? Were you imprisoned?

No.... just driving the wife to work, she likes NPR.


Moan all you want about auntie hillary, as obama called her; but it puts you folks in the camp of have committed a fundamental wrong ie being duped by a con artist now president, and focusing on the fact that you are getting a tongue lashing for your deplorable stupidity by a too-shrill-by-half school marm. Yes she's a lousy politician, but it doesn't detract one iota from the depth of your lunacy.

Frostback.... I will remember your sage words.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:20am PT
Thats a good one Cosmic.

I don't know much about Birds.

But died in the wool HRC Democrats are much like Mocking Birds or maybe Parrots.

But no worries... I am so happy with My President.

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:25am PT
Mexico si, yanqui no!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:29am PT

Sanders will introduce universal health care, backed by 15 Democrats

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) will introduce legislation on Wednesday that would expand Medicare into a universal health insurance program with the backing of at least 15 Democratic senators — a record level of support for an idea that had been relegated to the fringes during the last Democratic presidency.

“This is where the country has got to go,” Sanders said in an interview at his Senate office. “Right now, if we want to move away from a dysfunctional, wasteful, bureaucratic system into a rational health-care system that guarantees coverage to everyone in a cost-effective way, the only way to do it is Medicare for All.”

Sanders’s bill, the Medicare for All Act of 2017, has no chance of passage in a Republican-run Congress. But after months of behind-the-scenes meetings and a public pressure campaign, the bill is already backed by most of the senators seen as likely 2020 Democratic candidates — if not by most senators facing tough reelection battles in 2018.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/sanders-will-introduce-universal-health-care-backed-by-15-democrats/2017/09/12/d590ef26-97b7-11e7-87fc-c3f7ee4035c9_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_singlepayer-1008pm-1%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.62ad8b972ff
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:29am PT
I am so happy with My President.

or course you are honey


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
No probs guyman, not saying trump won't get a few things done now he is abandoning the fiscal conservatives and starting to contemplate cutting more deals with centrist dems on common sense issues that centre right repubs can join in to gain a working majority. Thats' good govt.
On the con artist front-well lets see what herr mueller has to say on that front as trumps russian dealings slowly bubble to the surface. If he's off-side then who cares what HRC says on the matter, she is ultimately on the ashbin of history whether i or others like her or not.

Ahhh... but a few weeks ago you wanted to shoot my president,(maybe not you, but one hater) or I think it was Locker who wanted to "Punch his lights out...."or sum sch sh#t...

and the 15 democrats who want to introduce single payer...with Bernie. Those are the fringe dems.... the freedom caucus boys are going to fringe with themselves. This will leave a whole bunch of legislators right smack dab in the middle.... then "WE" can get somethings done. Please note" the WE are all the folks who don't really give a rats ass about the political party one belongs to, rather its getting the things done that must get done.
Things that most Americans can agree on and there is more we agree on then disagree on...


I know NORTON said a few weeks back that "coming together" was the most moronic thing ever..... but he was incorrect- as usual- about most of his pronouncements.

I still laugh out loud when I think of his statement that HRC has 270 electoral votes and there is no way Trump can get even close .... that makes me smile, I think about that every time one of you guys slings a insult at me for my choice in the last election.

have a good day gentlemen.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
Oh sorry I got it wrong, Locker.... But I know that all you wanted to do is punch somebodies lights out.... just got the details wrong.

so are you joining in with the thugs?

sounds like it.


EDIT: for Frostback...... agree with your statement, except for the end...
WBraun

climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
if Mueller (he's just another DC criminal) unearths indictable offences

He won't find jack sh!t because it's all bullsh!t and everyone in DC already knows it except the brainwashed loons.

You people are owned by the CIA which makes up all these lies.

St000pid brainwashed Americans .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 02:09pm PT
Haben Sie irgendwelche Froggies?

drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:14pm PT
It was about his smug, fuked up, lying sack of sh!t, son, Don Jr...

And I'd still like to punch the fuker in the face, and yes, it still would make me feel...

GUD...


Can you imagine tiny lil'Locker punching a grown man in the face?

Step ladder intervention?

The Hellary pant-suit camo look would get L0cker past the guards

His XS size harness riggery at hand?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:45pm PT
I am really concerned with shįt on nps trailways. perhaps secretary zinke will direct some $$ to clean up the horse and human sh#t all over the wild basin trail
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
FOLLOW THE MONEY

Ferreting out corruption from our legal institutions is not something that will ever be accomplished. However, it is a continual struggle worth fighting, because those seeking to pervert the system will not stop if those defending justice give up. Life for all of us will get uglier. So many examples to disentangle... here is one I spent an hour distracting myself with. Imagine what can be uncovered by Mueller's investigation?


 In 1996, Hermitage Capital Management launched and specializes in Russian markets, taking an investment stake in companies, then trying to root out and expose corruption. They make a profit when investors value the company higher when they see less money wasted through corruption. For example, investors assumed 99% of Gazprom (the Russian oil giant) assets were stolen through corruption, and his firm investigated and said it was more like 10%, which would place the company valuation higher. My editorial/conspiracy theory: this would be a perfect shield for a blackmail business, taking a cut off of all the corruption they uncover. The official accounting shows their P&L from official investments where they uncover stuff, then the black book contains the blackmail money for what they keep covered up.

 2005: Russian government blacklists/denies entry to the founder of Hermitage Capital Management as a threat to national security. Maybe they got greedy and asked for too much? I don't have acces to the article, but this article from The Economist. probably discusses it more.

 2007: Hermitage Capital and related offices in Moscow raided by Ministry of Interior. Extensive documents outside the scope of the warrant taken. The founder of Hermitage Capital claims the warrant (ostensibly related to taxes due) was totally baseless. My editorial/conspiracy theory: Russian officials who are threatened to be either exposed or pay blackmail to Hermitage capital fight back- they know Hermitage is dirty too, and mock up a reason to go prove it to get Hermitage off their backs.

 A small cog in this machinery: Sergei Magnitsky is an auditor in Moscow, working for a legal firm representing Hermitage Capital Management; their offices had been raided too. He gets assigned to figuring out what happened with the tax issues.

 Magnitsky's research uncovers, and he testifies, to these alleged plots:
    police accused Hermitage of tax evasions to get warrant to get access to the docs
    police handed over the docs to other criminals
    these criminals use the info to hijack 3 of the Hermitage companies and file for tax refunds from Russian government, reclaiming $230 million of previously paid taxes. (they forged a change in owernship, then filed claims of $1 billion expenses to other shell companies to make their taxable earnings look smaller to get the tax refunds)
    Magnitsky's testimony implicates police, judges, tax officials, bankers, and Russian Mafia

 One of the policmen involved subsequently accused Magnitsky of being a go-to person for these shenanigans, and Magnitsky ends up in jail by the end of 2008

 2009 Magnitsky dies in a Moscow prison; denied medical care for months and beaten to death, family claims he was tortured, all this without having a chance for a trial (he died at 358 days in, when Russian law required his release or trial within 365 days).

 2012 US signs into law the Magnitsky Act to block the specific Russians thought to be involved in his death from entering US and using the US banking system. Symbolically, this is a message of US government fighting back against financial corruption and organized crime. Hard to disentangle from the echoes of Soviet/US cold war conflict too.

 2012 Russia responds with Dima Yakovlev Law which is a tit for tat blocking of US individuals from entering Russia, freezing their assets, etc... also blocks US citizens from adopting Russian children.

 July 2013 Russia has a posthumous trial for Magnitsky and convicts him of tax evasion.

 Sept 2013: Preet Bharara (U.S. Attorney for Souther District of New York) along with leaders of other agencies in New York file a claim against 11 companies related to money laundering for some of the $230 million fraud that Magnitsky had testified about, into Manhattan real estate. Prevezon Holdings is one of these. Preet said "While New York is a world financial capital, it is not a safe haven for criminals seeking to hide their loot, no matter how and where their fraud took place."

 October 2015: Preet Bharara has a deposition from Nikolai Gorokhov in support of this case. Gorokhov is a lawyer representing Magnitsky's family since 2011 in Russian cases related to the original $230 million that Magnitsky's family says he was killed for. Lawyers for Prevezon want to buy time and force Gorokhov to testify at the Prevezon trial in New York. Preet Bharara files to make the deposition be his official testimony, so if anything happens to Gorokhov, the trial won't be impacted. In that filing, Preet Bharara explicitly mentions the US Govt concern that if Gorokhov and his family return to Russia they would be threatened or harmed to prevent him from testifying. Here is the full text of Preet Bharara's filing.

 June 2016 Don Trump Jr, Manafort, and Kushner meet with an "infamous" Russian lawyer to discuss "the Russian ban on an adoption program" (i.e. the anti-Magnitsky act in Russia). Ok, at a pivotal moment in the election campaign, top people in Trump's camp are worried about the issue of US citizens adopting babies from Russia? That sounds like a head scratcher, but discussing the ongoing fall-out of the Magnitsky act, it's ongoing litigation around New York city real estate in the industry and community at the heart of Trump's wealth... ok now we see the carrot (dirt on Hillary) and the stick (dirt on Donald) in this meeting. More info.

 March 11, 2017: Preet Bharara is fired by Trump after a series of efforts by Trump to read Bharara or cultivate a relationship with him. Bharara had multiple investigations with connections to Trump.


 March 23, 2017: Nikolai Gorokhov "falls out of a window" in Moscow and plummets 4 stories, but somehow survives. He probably got the message that pursuing the Magnitsky cases in Russia and the USA testimony in the Prevezon case is not a good idea. In a July 2017 he says he believes it was not an accident. He also claims to not remember what happened.

 May 2017: The acting US Districit Attorney in New York, on the eve of trial with witnesses flown in, settles case with Prevezon. Hundreds of millions of known money laundering is at issue, with more than a billion made from investments in USA related to it, and they settled for $5.8 million. Prevezon was expecting to pay more than that for their lawyers at trial. Here's what CNN had to say. And here's a European perspective.


And there you go. I've laid out a few dots. Use your own judgment to connect them.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
Some guy named Robert Muller is going to write a book, or is he going to throw it?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 14, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
How did a guy fall out a window four stories and survive? He must be an alien. There you go.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 15, 2017 - 05:33am PT
The concrete was only 27 days old...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:41am PT
Taxpayers were billed $1,092 for an official who stayed at Mar-a-Lago

The receipt for the two-night visit at the president’s Florida club, obtained in recent days by the transparency advocacy group Property of the People and verified by The Post, offers one of the first concrete signs that Donald Trump’s use of Mar-a-Lago as the “Winter White House” has resulted in taxpayer funds flowing directly into the coffers of his private business.


Nixon: "it's not a crime if the President does it"
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 16, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
I think I'm sophisticated
'Cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien
But all around me everybody's multiplying
Till they're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in their cages
In the zoo man
'Cos compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an ape man

I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cos I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man

I'm an ape man I'm a King Kong man I'm ape ape man

I'm an ape man
'Cos compared to the sun that sits in the sky
Compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an ape man

In man's evolution he has created the cities and
The motor traffic rumble, but give me half a chance
And I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'Cos the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an ape man
I'm an ape, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man

I look out my window, but I can't see the sky
'Cos the air pollution is fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an ape man

Come and love me, be my ape man girl
And we will be so happy in my ape man world
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man

I'll be your Tarzan, you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
And we'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an ape man

I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man.
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore
And make like an ape man.

Ray Davies and friends, the Kinks
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 16, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
Until he is removed from office, I will refer to him as the "Figment of the President of the United States." #FOPOTUS

According to Renato Mariotti(a legal expert) on Twitter
(link: https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/909046790292418561);

1/ Last night, the @WSJ reported that Mueller obtained info from Facebook via search warrant:
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

2/ The @WSJ talks about some of the info Mueller obtained (see below). Mueller could not obtain *content* of an account without a warrant.

3/ I was initially wary about discussing implications of this story because I worried @WSJ may have presumed a warrant that didn't exist.
4 replies 261 retweets 1,292 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

4/ But @CNN has confirmed that Mueller obtained content via search warrant, including ads, acct details, targeting.



5/ That is huge news. It means that Mueller has concluded that specific foreign individuals committed a crime by making a "contribution"
36 replies 845 retweets 2,928 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

6/ in connection with an election. It also means that he has evidence of that crime that convinced a federal magistrate judge of two things.
5 replies 480 retweets 2,046 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

7/ First, that there was good reason to believe that the foreign individual committed the crime. Second, that evidence of the crime existed
4 replies 425 retweets 1,866 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

8/ on Facebook. Why is that big news? Until now, Mueller's efforts to obtain information about Russian interference in the election could
3 replies 356 retweets 1,547 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

9/ be seen as an effort to gain counterintelligence or to investigate a matter unlikely to result in charges. Now we know he believes that
2 replies 335 retweets 1,498 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

10/ he's close to charging specific foreign people with a crime. Can he do that? Yes, if they committed a crime in the U.S.
10 replies 422 retweets 1,924 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

11/ For example, my former boss indicted Osama Bin Laden for the first World Trade Center bombing.
6 replies 297 retweets 1,499 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

12/ So what does this mean for Trump and his associates? This news also has large implications for them.
6 replies 340 retweets 1,524 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

13/ It is a crime to know that a crime is taking place and to help it succeed. That's aiding and abetting. If any Trump associate knew about
28 replies 651 retweets 2,556 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

14/ the foreign contributions that Mueller's search warrant focused on and helped that effort in a tangible way, they could be charged.
11 replies 450 retweets 1,985 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

15/ In addition, anyone who agreed to be part of this effort in any way could be charged with criminal conspiracy. They wouldn't need to
16 replies 397 retweets 1,861 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

16/ be involved in the whole operation or know everyone involved but they would have to agree to be part of some piece of it.
16 replies 314 retweets 1,611 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

17/ One thing I should note is that this particular violation of the law preventing foreign contributions in connection with an election
6 replies 355 retweets 1,525 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

18/ is far stronger than earlier speculation that Donald Trump Jr. violated the same law by accepting information from the Russian attorney.
11 replies 375 retweets 1,743 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

19/ One hurdle is that to violate the statute criminally, you have to do so knowingly and willfully. Here, Mueller has evidence that the
5 replies 305 retweets 1,427 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

20/ foreigner(s) had that intent, and it is far more difficult for an American to claim that he/she didn't know that a massive Russian
20 replies 319 retweets 1,631 likes
New conversation
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

21/ influence operation was against the law than it would be to claim that about hearing talk at a meeting. Jurors would be inclined to
10 replies 265 retweets 1,330 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

22/ convict anyone who was part of or aided a Russian effort to subvert our election.
7 replies 275 retweets 1,424 likes
Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti 9h9 hours ago

23/ If I represented someone who was caught up in this part of the investigation, I'd be very worried. /end


Should we start a Supertopo Pool on a time/date that the shite hits the fan? It would have to be detailed by someone who can give some definitive legal action, because IMO the shit's been spinning the whole while. And who knows how to manage a pool(I haven't a clue, but would like to join in). But - the moment when it is clear that they intend to move forward with some sort of charge or action that will result in The Figment being removed from office if proven true.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 17, 2017 - 02:59am PT
You are not an apeman.
You are a floogie bird.

I posted a song from the Kinks, to lighten matters up, but you Cosmic Dwaine just wanted to pursue your idiocy and name calling, not that I take offence to a floogie bird, whatever that is. But I would guess you wrote that not in any friendly manner.

Well Cosmic, I have refrained from writing this for some time. Yes I did a GoFundMe on the net to help with the cat's surgery (I sold a heck of a lot climbing gear, good gear, for about half the price to save Betty's leg. Some Irish climbers came away happy with good gear).

But at least I did not cry and beg on the Taco Stand about needing money like you have. And soliciting such funds from fellow climbers like you have. In my 12 plus years on Supertopo I have not seen somebody as brash as you are asking for money like you have. So go take a flying leap.

And I also did not link in my GoFundMe "plea" on the Taco Stand, some other climber from Acalanes High School District did that, and I was not happy about it.

And when the chips are down, I'll bet I have achieved far more in life than you have. But then, that is a subjective (maybe you know what subjective means, you play it all the time, but then subjective to you means objective it seems) assessment of our lives. Perhaps you are a grand wizard who has changed people's lives. I am no wizard, but I have, in a small way, helped others. Proof upon request.

You are a sad person by your posts. I pity you.

So let's end this now, I will not criticise you anymore Dwain, and you do not flame me. And if you want to go ahead and be infantile, I will not be losing sleep over your ignorance. So get the last word in and then let's call it quits. Okay? We should and will leave it at that.

Patrick

NB And just to help you if you want to flame me, my former avatar was my name, Patrick Sawyer. One Supertopian asked me why I changed it, I had my reasons, I will change it back if Chris allows me to.

So Drain (sic), flame away. I will not respond unless you have anything sensible to say.

And yes folks, I still climb, I climbed at Rocklands yesterday, what a jungle to get to it, sort of. But then it reminds me of the article in Mountain written by Mo Anthoine about his journey with Joe Brown, Don Whillans, Hamish MacInnes, to climb Mount Roraima. Talk about jungle. No thanks.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 17, 2017 - 09:40am PT
"Follow the money?" Yes, that is important, but not in the way you are focused on.
As a certain former Democrat who 'got it' opined,

"It's the economy, stoopid!"

Global debt may be understated by $13 trillion: BIS
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bis-debt-currencies/global-debt-may-be-understated-by-13-trillion-bis-idUSKCN1BS0OG

Muted inflation a trillion-dollar puzzle, says BIS
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bis-report-inflation/muted-inflation-a-trillion-dollar-puzzle-says-bis-idUSKCN1BS0OY

Now, back to our regularly scheduled hand wringing...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 17, 2017 - 10:00am PT
Anyone calculated the cost of this?

"You have to ask the President what fire and fury meant," Haley said. "But I think we all know that basically if North Korea keeps on with this reckless behavior, if the United States has to defend itself or defend its allies in any way, North Korea will be destroyed."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2017 - 10:18am PT

Learning from mistakes in climate research

Among papers stating a position on anthropogenic global warming (AGW), 97 % endorse AGW. What is happening with the 2 % of papers that reject AGW? We examine a selection of papers rejecting AGW. An analytical tool has been developed to replicate and test the results and methods used in these studies; our replication reveals a number of methodological flaws, and a pattern of common mistakes emerges that is not visible when looking at single isolated cases. Thus, real-life scientific disputes in some cases can be resolved, and we can learn from mistakes. A common denominator seems to be missing contextual information or ignoring information that does not fit the conclusions, be it other relevant work or related geophysical data. In many cases, shortcomings are due to insufficient model evaluation, leading to results that are not universally valid but rather are an artifact of a particular experimental setup. Other typical weaknesses include false dichotomies, inappropriate statistical methods, or basing conclusions on misconceived or incomplete physics. We also argue that science is never settled and that both mainstream and contrarian papers must be subject to sustained scrutiny. The merit of replication is highlighted and we discuss how the quality of the scientific literature may benefit from replication.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00704-015-1597-5
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 17, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
I'm choking on my beef jerkey sandwich...rj
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 18, 2017 - 01:26pm PT
Take it easy Dwain, don't you know a wind up when you "see" one? Don't have an "apoplexy". I can be reached at dpatricksawyer@gmail.com if you care to chat.

Cheers, in sincerity

Patrick
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 18, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
Hah hah that is funny Dwain. Good one.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:50am PT
I deleted my last post because frostback is correct, let's keep this on topic. Mr Flip Flop President doesn't know where he is going. Must be somewhat of a disappointment to his hardcore fans. But then this is a guy who has been bankrupt and used the system, the one he says he is against, to enrich himself. A guy who has screwed many small business people and yet some of you support him.

Weird.

And we see where he is headed. He now thinks he is the best president ever and looking at 2020, so he is courting all sides he thinks will sustain him. The guy may be an idiot but he is an idiot savant. In a warped way, one could almost admire him. Perhaps the ultimate bullshit artist, ever?

Or am I giving Trump too much credit? He has honed in on a populace who are either stupid, or sick of the system and this snake oil salesman has offered them a tonic. I think that stoopid voters are the answer to Trump's prayers.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 19, 2017 - 11:15am PT
What is Trump's handicap Locker, or is than an obvious question.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 11:23am PT
No, it isn't funny at all. It's juvenile, petty, and vindictive. He's the leader of the free world: he needs to act like it.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 12:13pm PT


Sep 19, 2017 - 12:02pm PT


"No, it isn't funny at all"...


Sure it is...

You just can't see beyond your anger...

It's highly inappropriate for a president to engage in this crap. He's not posting on the taco, he's the face of our country. As an American, I'm deeply humiliated by and ashamed of our president. He won't do it, but he needs to knock this sh#t off.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 19, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
Cheese-n-rice, that's a very bad golf swing. Sad!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
No, it's not funny. It is a message from a misogynist that says it is "funny" to attack. And while Trump didn't make the video, he DID Retweet it to what's left of his following base and for the rest of us to wonder how on earth so many fell for his "charm."

What's "funny" is that the figment of the President has his head so deep in denial that he doesn't seem to understand that Indictment Day is drawing VERY near.


Sometimes I inadvertently "catch" smidgeons of energy, essences of things actually occurring or being said.It's kind of wierd, but it's happened enough times that I have been pretty surprised about it.

Last night, about 11pm, I "got a whiff" of one of these things. It feels sort of like an electrical impulse, and though there aren't really words attached, I understand what is being "said." What I "got" was the group with Mueller/NYAG investigation had reached a climactical point. There seemed to be a large sigh, and some sort of "We have it; we have connected it all, beyond any shadow of a doubt, and can now proceed to the next phase. We now will choose when to make this proclaimation public."


I know that is a very weird thing for me to say, and that it's like saying "I'm psychic" or "I can communicate with Extraterrestrials." I know that....

But I also know what it feels like when I sense the things I do. Not that it carries any weight. It doesn't.

But, meanwhile the ones I have been following on Twitter seem to have also received some sort of similar information. The difference is that they are getting it directly from sources involved with the investigation(s) and not just a fleeting sensation that passes through them like an electrical current..

What is being said today is the "there are tapes, and it is is very, very bad. Worse than you can imagine." The same was said months ago, but it was too early in the process to take that topic much further. It is not "just" about Russian interference with the election and the weaponization of social media postings. But "it" is connected. And according to these folks, it is going to be scarring for us as a country.

Pray for Indictments. Pray for the day of reckoning to come SOON. Before they succeed in debilitating our economic foundation or going "scorched earth" in an "If I can't have it, no one can" and nuking the planet.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
The latest thing that doesn't pass the sniff check:
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/351408-trump-using-rnc-money-to-pay-legal-fees-in-russia

A few things strike me about this:
 Contributors can put up to $100k each per year!!! This is money allocated for "the national party committee's accounts for: (i) the presidential nominating convention; (ii) election recounts and contests and other legal proceedings; and (iii) national party headquarters buildings." What a crazy loophole when the nominal limit each person can contribute to a candidate is only $2.7k per year. More info.
 Just like there is a distinction between the personal rights and liabilities of a company director and the company itself, there should be such a distinction between the person of Donald Trump and the office of the President of the United States of America and the Candidate representing the Republican Party. It seems that Donald Trump's personal legal defense is being provided by the Republican Party because they fear the fall-out of his personal culpability and the impact on the party itself.

Between Super-PACs paying for the advertising and these loophole accounts covering the legal expenses, what is left for straight-up "campaign contributions" to cover? This is such a broken system designed to incubate corruption and hurt the average American citizen.

Repeal of Citizen's United decision is part of but not enough to fix our corrupt campaign finance system that ensures criminal influence outweighs the concerns of citizens.
Vlad Pricker

Mountain climber
The cliffs of insanity, inconceivable
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
I have lived abroad for many years, but It stuns me that so many of my fellow Americans voted for this guy.

What were you thinking?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
For someone that owns a few golf courses , he sure has an ugly swing...Hack...
dirtbag

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
Drip.
Drip.
Drip.
Drip.
Drip...


Manafort offered to give Russian billionaire ‘private briefings’ on 2016 campaign


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/manafort-offered-to-give-russian-billionaire-private-briefings-on-2016-campaign/2017/09/20/399bba1a-9d48-11e7-8ea1-ed975285475e_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_manafort-520pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4c3710bdec87
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
Brainwashed Dirtbag still thinks Oswald was the shooter because he was told it was him.

When puppets tell the politards what to think the politards come running like moths to the flames .....
dirtbag

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 09:54pm PT
Brainwashed Dirtbag still thinks Oswald was the shooter because he was told it was him.

When puppets tell the politards what to think the politards come running like moths to the flames .....

Oh ok, moonbeam.

Gud one locker.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:15am PT

My kids have been into Weird Al lately and this song reminds me of NWO and WVB

Oh, by the way, I've cracked the code
I've figured out these shadow organizations
And the Illuminati know
That they're finally primed for world domination

And soon you've got black helicopters comin' cross the border
Puppet masters for the New World Order
Be aware: there's always someone that's watching you
And still the government won't admit they faked the whole moon landing
Thought control rays, psychotronic scanning
Don't mind that, I'm protected cause I made this hat

From aluminum foil (foil)
Wear a hat that’s foil lined
In case an alien's inclined
To probe your butt or read your mind
Looks a bit peculiar ('culiar)
Seems a little crazy
But someday I'll prove (I'll prove, I'll prove, I'll prove)
There's a big conspiracy

[Click to View YouTube Video]
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:22am PT
Trump totally is Judge Smails!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 10:08am PT
Back to the thread title for a moment...

Apparently, we still haven't moved beyond healthcare.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
well the world needs ditch diggers danny
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
^^^

does not understand that the US and China are two different countries

but gallantly carries on, trying to find conspiracies under any rock

where have all the flowers gone....lead poisoning?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 22, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
McCain has come a long way toward rehabilitating himself...

Facing imminent death has that effect on some people. While he suffered BITD when a POW, he probably stayed sane with the belief he would live to see freedom. But yeah, when you know you will be "deplaning(plane of existence) soon, it can make the petty things(such as partisan bullsh#t, corporate lobbyists, making laws that "tell people" one thing when in reality their intent is altogether something different) annoying, or even unbearable.

I think McCain was always a fairly decent human being, but am glad he isn't going out with a whimper.

And I would bet that Trump's making fun of him plays a small role in his decisions to go against the party grain, if any role.


NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
I'm not sure what to think about this one:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/22/552961170/ruling-finds-solar-panels-from-china-hurt-u-s-maker


One the one hand, it will make solar manufacturers in the U.S. a little more likely to try actually manufacturing stuff here. On the other hand, it is completely unsustainable and will cut off U.S. consumers from getting the best and most cost-effective of what is produced in the world.

Edit1: And, it will kill all the service industry-related jobs when consumers decide not to buy a more expensive solution using domestic manufactured solar panels. People accept high prices for installation services because that can't be outsourced. But manufactured items, people are accustomed to dropping prices.

Edit2: And, this problem now, if anything, is a sign that the U.S.A. was too late to invest in R&D to make lower cost solar technologies, and instead of recognizing the mistake, is looking to double-down on it and screw ourselves even more in the future by dis-investment and market protectionist strategies.

If the case was about human rights violations or environmental regulations that don't exist or are not enforced in China, I would be on board with that. But just whining that other countries can make something cheaper is not a reason to block them. That is sticking a finger in the cracking dam and standing below it.

I think the only reasonable path forward for humanity is large-scale international trade agreements that mandate baseline levels of human rights and environmental regulations. The idea is to remove the arbitrage/shell-game that corporations can play by shifting around labor pools and facilities and profit declarations to maximize profits at the expense of societies and our shared environment.

The good bi-product of doing it this way, is we no longer need artificial protections against cheaper imports because stuff will have similar prices to produce around the world if similar labor and environmental laws are actually enforced. And, imports should on average be more expensive then because of the added cost of transport.

I think this is what the Trans-Pacific Partnership was trying to do... but it had some ugly stuff in it about international commercial interests overruling domestic environmental issues, as a result of compromises to get everyone to sign on to it. Maybe there are some parallels there to Obamacare, where one group accepted the ugly intermediate state to lock in progress toward the desired end state (e.g. like mandating that people sign up with for-profit insurance companies ensuring a captive market), while others were holding out directly for the perfect end state (e.g. single payer healthcare).
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 22, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
I think McCain was always a fairly decent human being...


Ummm.. "was".. maybe. "Is"... No.. just no.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
We can't find a way back from some mistakes:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/22/politics/pebble-epa-bristol-bay-invs/index.html

Maybe the best we can do is to learn how to disempower the executive branch from taking far-reaching actions regardless of which party is holding sway.

Short-term actions you can take (before October 17 deadline) if you care about protecting a Salmon fishery that supports almost half of the world's Sockeye Salmon runs:
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-proposes-withdraw-clean-water-act-restrictions-pebble-mine-alaskas-bristol-bay
Public comments on EPA’s proposals must be received on or before 90 days from the date of publication of the Federal Register Notice. Comments may be emailed to: ow-docket@epa.gov with docket number EPA-R10-OW-2017-0369 in the email subject line.

Background: here was the previously generated EPA report:
https://www.epa.gov/bristolbay/bristol-bay-assessment-final-report-2014

Frankly I'm surprised the data hasn't been taken down yet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 22, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
Prosecutors Lied About a Chemist Who Tainted 18,000 Convictions. Time to Overturn Them All.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/09/22/sonja_farak_convictions_aclu_wants_to_overturn_them_all.html
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
^^^ that's an interesting one...

In principle I like the idea of protecting the sanctity of the defense process to protect civilians from government abuses of power. Searches without warrant are a no-brainer for that principle. I'm not so sure in this case. If it is about her word being doubted because she has a drug problem, that is a gray area. If she is willful about certifying results she did not verify in a long term systematic way, and the prosecutors hide that fact after they discover it... yep, that is pretty damning. It shows more concern for racking up the government win than for the due process rights of citizens.

The process must have a higher sanctity than the facts of innocence or guilt in any case. Allowing this to slide because it keeps thousands of guilty people behind bars (which seems like a good thing) would send a clear signal that government abuse of citizens' rights is acceptable. Scary.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 23, 2017 - 08:54am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 23, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Meanwhile , in Alabama , President Trump is campaigning for Luther Strange...How appropriate...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 23, 2017 - 11:37pm PT

Didn't see this on CNN

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Sep 24, 2017 - 06:40am PT
Well, apparently the highest priority after healthcare for our Demagogue in Chief is curtailing athletes' ability to express themselves.


Funny how he thinks that the mostly African American athletes doing so are sons of bitches, while there were many fine people among last month's white supremacist crowd marching in Charlottesville.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 24, 2017 - 07:38am PT
Good Sunday morning. President Trump kicked off a beautiful game day for pro football by tweeting that fans should quit buying NFL tickets if protests take place:


"If NFL fans refuse to go to games until players stop disrespecting our Flag & Country, you will see change take place fast. Fire or suspend!"

"NFL attendance and ratings are WAY DOWN. Boring games yes, but many stay away because they love our country. League should back U.S."

New Yorker's Ryan Lizza tweets: "Goes to sleep threatening nuclear war. Wakes up suggesting boycott of NFL."
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 24, 2017 - 08:13am PT
Must be hammer time

The winner wasn't H. Clinton and Tump apparently didn't get the message about what can and can't be touched - touché?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 24, 2017 - 08:28am PT
The inspiring , omnipotent , presidential Donald Trump. Patriotic outsourcer of American jobs, proud grabber of women genitalia , cracking down on disrespectful NFL SOB malcontents while being investigated for obstruction of justice and colluding with Vladimir to win the Presidential election.. Not good . Very bad..
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Sep 24, 2017 - 08:35am PT
Why do they need to repeal ObamaCare?
Because the real Republican Party control comes down from the top, right wing billionaires that want more tax cuts...or MONEY

Koch network 'piggy banks' closed until Republicans pass health and tax reform

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/koch-network-piggy-banks-closed-republicans-healthcare-tax-reform

At a weekend donor retreat attended by at least 18 elected officials, the Koch brothers warned that time is running out to push their agenda, most notably healthcare and tax reform, through Congress.

One Texas-based donor warned Republican lawmakers that his “Dallas piggy bank” was now closed, until he saw legislative progress.

“Get Obamacare repealed and replaced, get tax reform passed,” said Doug Deason. “Get it done and we’ll open it back up.”

Repeal ObamaCare or else.....
people don't matter anymore, they will just steal the next election so don't worry about those pesky Democrats that believe in democracy
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 24, 2017 - 08:38am PT
And not one peep out of lyin' Ryan, or Zilch McConnell.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Sep 25, 2017 - 09:11am PT
Republicans, Trapped by Their Own Lies

Paul Krugman SEPT. 25, 2017

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/columnists/republican-lies-krugman.html?mabReward=TS2&recid=7a05360c-7ace-4718-55de-67a85dcc8a90&recp=0&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine

On Saturday pretty much the entire medical sector — groups representing doctors, hospitals, and insurers — released an extraordinary open letter condemning the Graham-Cassidy health bill. The letter was written in the style of Emile Zola’s “J’accuse”: a series of paragraphs, each beginning with the bolded words “We agree,” pointing out the bill’s many awful features, from the harm it would do to people with pre-existing conditions to the chaos it would cause in insurance markets.

It takes a truly terrible proposal to elicit such eloquent unanimity from organizations that are usually cautious to the point of stodginess. So how did Republicans come up with something that bad, and how did that bad thing get so close to becoming law? Indeed, it still has a chance of being enacted despite John McCain’s “no.”

The answer is that Republicans have spent years routinely lying for the sake of political advantage. And now — not just on health care, but across the board — they are trapped by their own lies, forced into trying to enact policies they know won’t work.

Reporting on why the G.O.P. plowed ahead with Graham-Cassidy makes it clear that many Republicans supporting it are well aware that it’s a bad bill, although they may not appreciate just how bad. “You know, I could maybe give you 10 reasons why this bill shouldn’t be considered,” said Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa. “But,” he continued, “Republicans have campaigned on this,” meaning repeal-and-replace, and had to fulfill their promise.

Carl Hulse of The New York Times adds more detail: one big factor behind the push for Graham-Cassidy was anger among big donors, who wanted to know why Republicans had broken their vows to kill Obamacare.

But repealing the Affordable Care Act wasn’t the only thing Republicans promised; they also promised to replace it with something better and cheaper, doing away with all the things people don’t like about Obamacare without creating any new problems. Remember, it was Bill Cassidy, not Jimmy Kimmel, who came up with the “Jimmy Kimmel test,” the pledge that nobody would be denied health care because of expense.

Republican senators spoke about their plan to repeal the Affordable Care Act last Tuesday. From left: Senators Roy Blunt, John Cornyn, John Barrasso, Lindsey Graham, Bill Cassidy and Mitch McConnell. Credit Shawn Thew/European Pressphoto Agency

Yet Republicans never had any idea how to fulfill that promise and meet that test, or indeed how to repeal the A.C.A. without taking insurance away from tens of millions. That is, they were lying about health care all along.

And the base, both the grass roots and the big money, believed the lies. Hence the trap in which Republicans find themselves.

The thing is, health care isn’t the only issue on which lies are coming back to bite the liars. The same story is playing out on other issues — in fact, on almost every substantive policy issue the U.S. faces.

The next big item on the G.O.P. agenda is taxes. Now, cutting taxes on corporations and the wealthy may be an easier political lift than taking health insurance away from 30 million Americans. But Republicans still have a problem, because they’ve spent years posing as the party of fiscal responsibility, and they have no idea how to cut taxes without blowing up the deficit.

As with health care, the party has masked its lack of good ideas with lies, claiming that it would offset lower tax rates and even reduce the deficit by eliminating unnamed loopholes and slashing unnamed wasteful spending. But as with health care, these lies will be revealed once actual legislation is unveiled. It’s telling that Republicans are already invoking voodoo economics to justify their as-yet-unspecified tax plans, insisting that tax cuts will pay for themselves by leading to higher economic growth.

At this point, however, few people believe them. The Bush tax cuts didn’t create a boom; neither did the Kansas tax-cut “experiment.” Conversely, the U.S. economy did fine after the 2013 Obama tax hike, as has the California economy since Jerry Brown raised state taxes. Party apparatchiks will no doubt engage in an orgy of Reaganolatry, but the broader public probably won’t be moved by (false) claims about the wondrous results of tax cuts 36 years ago.

So tax policy, like health care, will be hobbled by a legacy of lies.

Wait, there’s more.

Foreign policy isn’t usually a central concern for voters. Still, past lies have put the Trump administration in a box over things like the Iran nuclear deal: Canceling the deal would create huge problems, yet not canceling it would amount to an admission that the criticisms were dishonest.

And soon the G.O.P. may even start to pay a price for lying about climate change. As hurricanes get ever more severe — just as climate scientists predicted — climate denial is looking increasingly out of touch. Yet donors and the base would react with fury to any admission that the threat is real, after all.

The bottom line is that the bill for cynicism seems to be coming due. For years, flat-out lies about policy served Republicans well, helping them win back control of Congress and, eventually, the White House. But those same lies now leave them unable to govern.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 25, 2017 - 10:20am PT
The big donors bought them a giant tax cut, paid for it fair and square and they intend on collecting, damn the swamp, full corruption ahead.

http://crooksandliars.com/2017/06/big-donors-threaten-cut-gop-unless-they

Yahoo reports that a donor from Texas, Doug Deason, has "refused to host a fundraiser for two members of Congress and informed House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., his checkbook is closed as well"

Deason told GOP leaders: "Get Obamacare repealed and replaced, get tax reform passed. You control the Senate. You control the House. You have the presidency. There's no reason you can't get this done. Get it done and we'll open it back up."

Sounds like Deason really wants to see his taxes go down. My bet is he doesn't give a damn about the 15 million that will lose health insurance next year. Just that his bank account grows.

Also, the reports out of the fancy Koch Brothers' circle jerk meeting out of Colorado Springs were equally sad. Reports are they were "frustrated" by the President's inability to get anything done at all, even with a GOP Congress. Oh well.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 25, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Brilliant rebuttal to the article, Cosmic.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 25, 2017 - 11:16am PT
But pretty funny and well done!
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
Our man not near Havana.

Trump tweeted about sports 17 times between Saturday and Monday morning. He didn’t tweet once about Puerto Rico, where citizens have been largely without power, water or means of communication since Maria hit Wednesday as a Category 5 hurricane.



Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 25, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
But pretty funny and well done!

Reilly, I disagree, and anyway that meme has been overplayed already. And like statistics it could be used to show the opposite, if you get my drift.

But then you know my thoughts.

EDIT
I may be as impulsive as Trump. I have been telling myself to keep mum since I went back to Patrick Sawyer from Vlad (I vlad my reasons for the pricker). But since climbing has been slow lately (almost non-existent) and starting a business is time consuming and a bit weary, I need some relief.

So here goes...

And it just keeps coming, all the revelations and of course the tweets from Mr Trump, they are an avalanche too.

Blame the media. Blame the deep state. Blame Patrick. Blame the Taco Stand.

It seems a ‘good’ strategy, let the populace burn out and switch off with so many distractions and so much BS, change the subject when the need arises, and they will not care who is in charge.

So Kushner’s lawyer says Jared used a private email account to carry out official White House business. If I recall, so did Hillary.

And one thing about Trump, he may be an idiot, perhaps an idiot savant, but he knows his audience and how to play them, give him credit, he is a showman.

And he says (and it does not matter if they are his words or his puppet masters) what his base wants to hear. But they must be his words, who else could come up with such stupid rhetoric as he has.

I mean, come on, so many commentors and analysts have delved into this far more seriously than I have, but the guy just cannot help opening his mouth or letting his fingers do the talking.

Sometimes neither can I.

But for somebody with so much money and supposedely a first-class breeding, he is not very refined.

Let us be objective, whether one likes the guy or not, he has no class. In fact he is crass and an ass.

His words and actions show that.

I am both at the same time amazed and shocked that he could reach the position he has.

Okay ST (not as in St/saint) Trump supporters, I understand that you do not like liberals, and the liberal agenda that you believe has been driving America in the past few decades (has it? hmm, I wonder, worth taking a look at in depth).

I understand that you are are frustrated with the system (especially you know, the gerrymandering) and DC, and want change. I just think that you picked the wrong man and crew to carry about such change.

And really, a self-serving billionaire is your messiah?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 25, 2017 - 02:03pm PT
Howdy XYZ, welcome to a newbie. Yes of course he won, but how? And more importantly, what has he to show for it? (EDIT) And why should I get over a gobshite who bullshitted his way into being POTUS? Why should I get over the fact that Trump is more concerned about his fragile ego than he is about Americans? Why should I get over the fact that he is one sick corrupt person who is leading our nation?

Hey the dude is in the West Wing, XYZ I acknowledge that, very begrudgingly, but does he deserve to be there? You seem a Trump supporter. If so, tell us why he is so great. I do listen and even follow links, even to Breitbart (I draw the line at Drudge and National Enquirer).

It is simple to post memes.

EDIT

Well, XYZ's post has been deleted. I have no problem with that, I have deleted several stupid posts on the Taco Stand.

But for those who did not see XYZ's very fleeting post, it was meme of a lady in a Trump shirt with a "He won, just get over it" meme.

Of course he won the election (how?), that is not in dispute (perhaps should be though), what is in dispute is his repute.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 25, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
Cosmic, read, it was Pricker, but then you know that, you just ignore facts, don't you?

Oh, I get it, you are being facetious, trying to be insulting. Try again.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 25, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
Patrick, he's not really a billionaire.

And Cosmic trolls you like a sucka, you softie. :-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 25, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
And Cosmic trolls you like a sucka, you softie. :-)

Yeah I know, but it is fun. I have too much to be truly concerned about than what Cosmic or others have to say, but it is a diversion (sort of what Trump does) from reality.

Does anybody really think I lose sleep over this forum? Well, maybe once or twice, hah hah.

Gosh I wish there was good rock in Wexford. Then I could spend more time wasting the cells in my fingertips than in my brain. If you get my meaning.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 25, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
Remember when Trump took the knee when it came time to go to his draft physical? Grabbing his own pussy.

Lock his punk-ass up.


zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
“I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world. It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam-era,” Trump said in a video that resurfaced Tuesday on Buzzfeed, “It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier.”
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 25, 2017 - 11:18pm PT
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 02:27am PT
Does anybody really think I lost my mind over this forum? Well, maybe once or twice, hah hah.

Good one Dwain, and no doubt true.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 26, 2017 - 09:20am PT
Frostback..... Yes, we are still waiting on the Muller deal.

How is it going by the way?

IMHO... Our President, Donald Trump is doing magnificently. The Republicans are showing just how impotent they really, truly are. And the Democrats... well looks like a big split with the Bernie people and the Chuckey people.

I know this is not well written prose, I am no writer, I admit.

But I come to this thread daily to be amused and entertained.

And welcome back Patrick! I like you much better when your not a pricker. :>)



Studley.... good read, did you write that?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:41am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:41am PT


that's why I voted for him....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:42am PT
Cosmic...get real, the narcissistic buffoon you voted has never given a flying f about the people but he sure as hell cares about the person...himself.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:45am PT
Neither candidate cared about the people- it's why so many chose not to vote.

c wilmot

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:52am PT
It's amazing Americans can't understand they are being turned against each other by the very same politicians who they think support them...

oh well- the herd mentality in America will be its undoing

Remember to get that flu shot...
c wilmot

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:09am PT
Start thinking for yourself

Republican supporters want to shop at wal mart at artificially low prices while also wanting to work at a US factory doing unskilled labor for high pay

Democrat supporters want open borders and a mass immigration of low skilled laborers while also wanting to be paid a $15 an hour minimum wage

Politicians on both sides stoke these delusional beliefs

And the people love them for it

c wilmot

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:30am PT
"We" are acting like a herd of cattle.

I don't expect change because the majority of Americans view politics as a new form of religion. They base their self worth on the belief that they are morally above other people. And that belief in moral superiority is based on which group mentality they ascribe to: republican or democrat

If people started thinking for themselves than maybe we will have better candidates than trump vs Hillary

Until then "we" will get the government we deserve
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:33am PT
According to our esteemed leader, the current hot national crisis seems to be that traitorous treacherous football industry.

Let's show the world who America really is, and drive that 14 billion dollar US industry out of business!

Make soccer great again!

Brexit's got nothing on us.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:50am PT
What a load of crap this "both sides are guilty" stuff is. The GOP has both houses of congress and the dips**t in the WH. He spends all frickin day on social media throwing divisive, racist red meat to his numbskull, ignorant base.

Our democracy is fading and he's laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, his staffers are using private e-mail servers for government business. And the base could care less.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:53am PT
Anywun whu dun CONFORM must b DENOUNCED as a race traitor ;)

If you're going to troll us, could you please at least show us the courtesy of trolling us using complete words so we can be properly stirred? Thanks.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:54am PT
What a load of crap this "both sides are guilty" stuff is. The GOP has both houses of congress and the dips**t in the WH. He spends all frickin day on social media throwing divisive, racist red meat to his numbskull, ignorant base.

This.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 26, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
The gist of some of the upthread posts, that donald is shaking things up, is true

What is he shaking up? He has done nothing other than write eo's.
He has not drained the swamp, in fact, the swamp is overflowing.
btw, how are those coal mining jobs doing?
WBraun

climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
The gist of some of the upthread posts, that donald is shaking things up, is true

So True!!!

You brainwashed loons can't get Trump out of yer minds.

He's embedded inside your brainwashed poltard heads.

You luzzers are insane .....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
What we’ve got here is failure to communicate
Some men you just can’t reach…

I know it is a bit old and perhaps somewhat of a cliché nowadays.

But just now, listening to Guns N’ Roses “Civil War”, it sort of seems appropriate for the times, discussion and sadly, perhaps the truth.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
Bearbreeder to each their own, you want to post memes that support your point of view, go ahead. But who do you think you are kidding? I have yet to see a post from you that has an open mind or is willing to come up with dialogue or facts. And if silly memes are all you have, I sort of pity you. I want no flames with you, just commenting. I am sure you will find some way to fire back. Best wishes dude/gal.

Patrick
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 26, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
yes, he is doing the best he can with what the lord gave him to work with
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 26, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
Start thinking for yourself

Republican supporters want to shop at wal mart at artificially low prices while also wanting to work at a US factory doing unskilled labor for high pay

Democrat supporters want open borders and a mass immigration of low skilled laborers while also wanting to be paid a $15 an hour minimum wage

Politicians on both sides stoke these delusional beliefs

And the people love them for it

I actually partially agree with you. Except for this: "Start thinking for yourself".

You see, the trump supporters thought they were thinking for themselves. Unfortunately they were too stupid to realize they were being lead astray.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
..... Yes, we are still waiting on the Muller deal.

How is it going by the way?

It's coming along fairly quickly, especially when considering how complex the thing is. But if you only pay attention to media sources such as Fox, Breitbart and the like, you wouldn't know this.

He is expected to begin interviewing WH staff later this week, and ex-staffer Spicer has hired a criminal defense lawyer to hep him through his dealings in the investigation. The IRS is sharing information about key Trump campaign officials with him.

But I suppose it's all going to be just a huge waste of money, and they will find nothing illegal or even unethical whatsoever has occurred...... All this will just prove that The Embarrassment of the United States has simply been the target of a smear campaign by Hillary Clinton and Crew who just can't accept that she lost the election....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
Bearbreeder, I cannot resist, do you really breed bears? Or just breed bare sh#t?

Fire back dude. I await an infantile meme. I am having fun, are you? The remnants of Maria (or is it Jose) are sweeping through, and to be honest it is nicer to hear the whistling in the trees and the rain pounding against the window (as the Celtic Sea is only 60 meters away) than the sound of flatulence you produce. Hah hah.

Hey, let's be lighthearted, okay. Take a go at me and I may or may not return one, it depends, I am just relaxing after a day's work. I hold no grudges against anybody, life is too short.

Edit

What about Trump taking the knee when his draft came up? And he was in a military college, for what reason? And what about all his products made abroad? And the Chinese cement he has used in his projects? If Mr Trump wants to talk about being a patriot, perhaps he should look in the mirror first.

“I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world,” Trump told Stern of avoiding STDs. “It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam era. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier.”

Wow! And some you still think he is the messiah?

EDIT I have known people who lost their lives in Vietnam and elsewhere. I have seen the grief in families. And Trump plays flippant, yet, he is serious, he seems to believe he has served his country as a bankrupt businessman who has screwed others. Go figure. It is shameful we have POTUS more concerned with sparring with celebrities, sports people, as well as politicians who do not want to follow his agenda, than he does about nukes, Puerto Rico and the average citizen.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
Dwain, I have not and that is so like you. Get a grip. and bearbreeder, thank you for proving my point.

But Cosmic, you could drive me to a whiskey. Where's your car? The nearest pub is about two miles away.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
Cosmic/Dwain have you ever offered any sort of decent rebuttal on your part, like some other Trump supporters have? However fallacious their's may be?

I have not seen one intelligent rebuttal from you yet, but then I may have missed it.

And Trump supporters, and indeed anti-Trump people, memes are really stupid. Just plain lazy. I do not think I have posted one unless I myself made it up as an original and then...

But aren't these memes sort of silly?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 26, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
This is why I don't miss TV! WOOT!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:05pm PT
At the end of the day, how to put it with due respect to all, I am just here to see what's happening. I can still lead 5.11/E3, sketchily like, legs a shaking and watch me.

I involve myself in the politard threads because as a writer, journalist, zoologist I just.. write act I think and lay myself out there. Vlad was an abomination of my thoughts, no that is not correct. I'll put my finger on it. But this forum is my outlet.

Now Cosmic, eff off. I have not been drinking and that is a crappy excuse for your not having anything intelligent to respond to me. If you were decent, you would owe me an apology. And if I have ever offended you, ask me in same.

Do some posts wind me ups? Of course they do, I am only human.

But. it is late and I am going to hit the hay. And as a parting shot, and I can prove it (details upon request, and with all due respect to Jim in BC who thinks all of my posts are about me), I have interviewed presidents and prime ministers, and came out alive after an interview with Maggie (August 1989) as I was editor of Training Personnel (Maggie had just launched the TECs in England and Wales).

I write this because some of have called me a fake. I write this because, Donald Trump is a fake. If you support him, look at his record since his adulthood, and then tell me I am wrong.

I write this because, good gosh, TRUMP CAN SCREW US ALL. Don't you get it?

Yes I am worried, with good reason. How about you?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
That video of Trump, I'd like to know how real it is. This is the scary thing about technology nowadays, anything can be faked. It is so scary. Anything can be faked. And then where are we?

I have been at the coalface, and in recent times never liked it. How many have you been? Have you been there?

Edit
You know, flame me if you want, bring out your discredited facts, I just have a lot to do. I am launching a business and I should not even be spending my time on the ST. But it is the only forum I participate in, and I actually can say, I like you all, even the Trump supporters.

I am not the most disciplined person on this planet, so I will try and refrain from anymore political threads.

However...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
Edit

What about Trump taking the knee when his draft came up? And he was in a military college, for what reason? And what about all his products made abroad? And the Chinese cement he has used in his projects? If Mr Trump wants to talk about being a patriot, perhaps he should look in the mirror first.

“I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world,” Trump told Stern of avoiding STDs. “It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam era. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier.”

Wow! And some you still think he is the messiah?

EDIT I have known people who lost their lives in Vietnam and elsewhere. I have seen the grief in families. And Trump plays flippant, yet, he is serious, he seems to believe he has served his country as a bankrupt businessman who has screwed others. Go figure. It is shameful we have POTUS more concerned with sparring with celebrities, sports people, as well as politicians who do not want to follow his agenda, than he does about nukes, Puerto Rico and the average citizen.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
And for those with those idiotic memes, they cut no ice. Grow up. If memes are the level of your discourse and 'intelligence' for our nation, heavens help us.

But Beer it really seems you are a troll posting memes to get a rise in your member. Sad. Try a porn site.

Gosh, you guys really have drank the kool-aid to Trump.

And why should I care, but dang it, though I live abroad, I love my country and to think idiots like some are either controlling it or supporting that control, my reason for deliberation and thought is sincere.

And I await the idiotic responses.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
And your point is Mr Beerbreeder?

I do not mind playing poker, but if the cards are dealt crookedly, do I just say, "deal with it"?

I await a weighted response, or perhaps one of your infantile memes. Can you construct a proper sentence Beer?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
Yeah a good photo call, any sensible political would arrange one. So, again your point is, Trump is a man of the people?

Really?

Given his record and background?

Dream on sucker. And there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

EDIT

I do not get TV service, I stopped that after...

So when I have spare time, I sometimes get it on the net, perhaps too may times on Supertopo. In the past I have aired my personal circumstances, much to my chagrin, hindsight is 20/20.

I'll do my best to refrain from that. But I have always been honest on this forum. And I hope that counts for something.

Patrick
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 26, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
BearBreeder, I am a registered Republican

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
Come on folks, it is clear by now the Bearbreeder is a troll to wind those of us he finds against his, I don't know, perhaps person.

His reply to Norton was just as infantile and could be expected. He is shooting himself in the foot and he does not know it. Sad creature.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
And I am having fun. Reading what the sensible people have to say, regardless if they are left or right, I do follow some of the links.

As for the trolls and nitwits, I respond to them as I see please. It is fun. My new company, not to be named on this forum because, call it paranoia but there are some weirdos on ST who... are very weird and sick. Anyway I am in the final stages.

I wish you all the best and please, wish my business the best. I need all the help I can get, as every starts-up does.

Cheers

Patrick
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
What will it cost me to have some models post in front of my book, soon to be published?

Bear you are so disingenuous, but then I wonder if you know that you are being such. I enjoy this. Not that I like seeing poor souls like you making a fool of yourself. Pity comes to mind.

EDIT
Listen folks I have been on this forum since 2005, I had the stint as Vlad Pricker (I had my reasons) but I have never lied or bullshitted. I have bared my soul several times (and some posters have taken advantage of that to slag me, a number of times, and perhaps I asked for it and or perhaps they are as#@&%es.)

I have at times been an ass, I know, I admit that. I have also been insulted on this forum, and I have been insulting myself to others. Drink, sometimes. Frustration, sometimes. Just plain pissed off at ignorance, many a time.

I can still climb at least, with a struggle, 5.11. I am a climber since 1967. But I am also a person, a zoologist, a journalist and a person who misses his love in life.

But it is my opinion that the US is facing a crisis, and yet some of what you think the present POTUS is doing a fine job, can I ASK, pray tell how?

No memes or "snides" please, just intelligent discourse. I welcome it. I have a lot on my plate, but I will always have time for fellow climbers.

I am tired I am going to hit the sack. But I have always been sincere, I just hope the responses, if any, will be.

This is not a game, not Power Pete, Duke Nuke em, Quake whatever (shows my age) this is for real, if we have two nuts squarring off, what be it the outcome?

Over the years I read what other STers write, the climbing and non-climbing posts. Fro those Trump supporters, many of you seem intelligent. I know many of you are pissed off with the system - you are not alone - but Donald Trump?"

EDIT, big time, now that I read what I have written, I have been honest, Vlad did not fool anybody, I forget what poster it was (look it up, I ain't gonna) who said from the get go that Vlad was Patrick.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 26, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
The combination of undereducated atheletes and an overly sensitive media has our nation on the wrong path.

Wow, Pizzaman, whoa, you really think so? Can you please repeat that. An overly sensitive media is misleading our nation, is that what you are claiming?

Please tell me you have thought this out and now want to reconsider, if not, your thinking is some of the more frightening thoughts to have been presented on this forum.

Just my opinion. Please clarify though.

I am going to add more but break time.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 26, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
bearbreeder... how do you keep it up when you're trying mate an angry sow...? rj
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 26, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
Hee hee hee... Dat Barebreeeeder. He so hard to unnerstan if you be wite foke with a stick up yo bum...

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:33pm PT
OJ ?

Essentially, he is using this statement to talk about subjects that he hasn’t been asked by the committee to talk about. It’s a strategy that is meant to distract from the issues that the committee is focused on and to politicize the hearing.

Is this the guy who killed Nicole? Mebbe yes, mebbe no

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 27, 2017 - 08:55am PT
Good link Cosmic......


Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 27, 2017 - 10:30am PT
Blame the messenger.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 27, 2017 - 10:43am PT
Anybody have any figures on what DT has personally cost taxpayers with his business dealings like lawsuits and bankruptcies?
c wilmot

climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:03am PT
Mr popovitch should walk to the Bart line and ride it to SF after his teams next game at the oracle arena in Oakland.

he will feel uncomfortable...
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:05am PT
Yep, all those dark people are scary.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:14am PT



monolith

climber
state of being

Sep 27, 2017 - 11:05am PT
Yep, all those dark people are scary.



I was talking about the hypocrisy of a multimillionaire who lives in a gated community telling average Americans that they should feel uncomfortable. If you have ridden Bart when it's at peak capacity you would understand what I meant. I don't think anyone finds the experience pleasing... these athletes and coaches live in a false reality
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:22am PT
I was talking about the hypocrisy of a multimillionaire who lives in a gated community telling average Americans that they should feel uncomfortable

But its coo if your pres does it??
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:23am PT
LOL, Popovich is one of the most grounded people you'll ever meet. He would have no problem with in that environment.

And no, I've been at Bart at peak capacity and I don't know what you mean.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:24am PT
I have yet to hear DT tell white people that they should feel uncomfortable for being born white..

Though he has also lived a life sheltered from the realities average Americans deal with

Edit :
And no, I've been at bart at peak capacity and I don't know what you mean.

You must be a masochist ...
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 27, 2017 - 11:26am PT
Anyone else wouldn't have gotten your attention, BB.

Really, Wilmont, being around so many hard working people on their way to work in the city makes you uncomfortable?

I actually find it inspiring.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 27, 2017 - 12:11pm PT
CWilmot, I understand what you are saying. I had commuted on BART (Lafayette-SF) for some years, six or so years on the London Underground, and working in France the Paris Metro at rush hour is not pretty. And DART (Dublin Area Rapid Transit), some may say it is crowded at peak, but try the previous three I mentioned, DART is comfortable in comparison.

Now to your point, of course these people are wealthy, and coddled, but they still have a right to air their views, yet the position that society has ‘afforded’ them means that what they say can carry more weight in the media than the average person, for better or for worse.

Is that right? Money talks.

But if you want to talk about hypocrisy, there is loads around from all sides, even I am a hypocrite at times.

But Donald Trump must take the cake.

I could document his hypocrisy, but it is there to see, clear to all but his supporters. Just one, one, for example, wait, where do I begin, there are so many from the guy, he speaks from both sides of his mouth. A rare talent indeed.

And to the people who say “cry babies, get over it deal with it”, I could do that, if there was a level playing field.

And the criers crying about the cry babies, one could not make this up.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 27, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
New all time high for the S&P!
"It's the economy, stoopid!"
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 27, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
Really, Wilmont, being around so many hard working people on their way to work in the city makes you uncomfortable?

Conservatives on the whole do seem uncomfortable with the concept of work.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 27, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
Well, I have been on the Arpanet since 1983. And now I truly see trolling.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 27, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 27, 2017 - 01:57pm PT

Donald Trump: I love the poorly educated.
Hannibal Lecter: I'm having an old friend for dinner.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 27, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
Covefe shakes?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 27, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
I love it when little baby right wingers try so hard to disguise their own and their Republican party's racism!

in this instance, BeerBreeder attempts to do the last couple of pages by posting clever pictures that show black people holding trump supporters signs

yes yes little one, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then..

but here's where your hard efforts fall flat = what percentage of blacks voted for Trump?

what percentage of other "minorities", asians, American Indians, Latino, voted for Trump?

how honey boo boo, try to understand that the words "False Equivalence" destroy your attempts at casting minority voters as co equals to white Donald Adorers like you

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
From Claude Taylor on Twitter(if you don't know who that it, not a problem. But he has been getting insider scoop on IC knowings and posting as a soothing salve for our nation. I've been following him since January and his info has been shown to be on target, and anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months ahead of main media publication.

Less than 30 minutes ago, he posts:
Claude Taylor‏Verified account @TrueFactsStated 18m18 minutes ago

Source: a senior Admin official who has now left the WH was cooperating with Mueller invstn prior to their departure. I was not told who.


Edit: I am thinking that it's Spicer, with his Truman Capote-esque stature and voice; and like Capote, completely capable of screwing someone while simultaneously screwing them over in ways they'll never be able to overcome.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 27, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
"I have a great relationship with the blacks," Trump said, according to CBS News. "I've always had a great relationship with the blacks."


well so does little BeerBreeder, who is obsessed with trying to prove that he can find some pictures of, gasp, black peoples, with his Adored Leader Donald

gonna graduate high school finally this year, boo boo?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
Cruel little man.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 28, 2017 - 06:23am PT
Limmer was right...Trump ain't no laycist...He's a christian and lack lives do matter...Even dose NFL son's so bitchees...
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:03am PT
Beerbreader - Nobody here has attacked any minority-group person for having their photo taken with DT. Why are you writing that someone has?

Meanwhile, in regards to the trafficking issue, one of the more insidious segments of the "Donald Dilemma" is that there are serious intimations that he is actually involved in the trafficking of Eastern European young females for use in the sex industry. Yes, I KNOW it sounds utterly absurd. It's nearly impossible to imagine.

But, as we know, human trafficking for sex work(and other slavery conditions) IS real, and is a REAL worldwide human rights/political issue. This is one reason I will NEVER visit Thailand, with it's government that condones the selling of children into the sex trade and the exploitation of these children in the country's sex tourism industry.

If you had to imagine what sex trafficker looked like, what features would such a person have? I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have such a hard time imagining that DT and his creepster sons has "made a deal" with his Russian mob buddies in the human importing/exporting fiels.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Sep 28, 2017 - 09:56am PT
Literacy, civility, and good grammar might go a long ways towards making a point in a political discussion.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 28, 2017 - 11:07am PT
Trump said the story took place at his Mar-A-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida, during a Red Cross charity ball, when a man of about 80 who “a lot of people didn’t like” was badly injured in a fall.

“So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head and I thought he died,” Trump said. “And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my god, that’s disgusting, and I turned away. I couldn’t, you know — he was right in front of me. I turned away, I didn’t want to touch him.”

“He’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible, you know,” Trump continued. “Beautiful marble floor, it didn’t look so good. It changed color, it became very red

“They ran him out, I never saw it, they ran him out. I was saying, ‘Get that blood cleaned up, it’s disgusting.'”
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Keep up the good work bear breader.

I love how the st00pid loon politards are getting all twisted in their girly man panties .....

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 28, 2017 - 11:45am PT
monolith, thanks for keeping count! Strong werk! bearbreeder could get more on each page if you'd let him though.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 28, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
Norton.... BB just answered your question.

How can Trump possibly get to 270???

Remember how you said "it would never happen?????"" ???


Look at the map.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
I saw activity on this thread and I hoped to read something of substance, something that would make me consider a different viewpoint. I find vapid tit-for-tat exchanges to be unsatisfying, and try with my work breaks to do something constructive. I guess we all have our preferred forms of escapism.

I humbly offer this for consideration: the more thought you put into what you write, the more satisfaction you get out of it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
I hope bearbeater climb better than he drive car...white laycist rotting
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
my goodness but you just ADORE your little boy leader, don't you boo boo?

be proud, some more ADORING Realty TV Star fans


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 28, 2017 - 07:50pm PT
Bearbreeder...Be careful ..Trump put you on no flyd lice ban...
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Sep 28, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
^^^^^ So maybe I'm missing it but shouldn't it be 'your'ignorant, racist etc...? I've gotten so used to misspellings from Trumpies that it seems a given that they cannot use the English language correctly.
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 28, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Hehe, looks like that finger got photoshopped.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:15am PT
Cosmic was using his Azn accent...
dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 08:47am PT
"Drain the swamp!"


President Trump could save more than $1 billion under his new tax plan.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/28/us/politics/trump-tax-benefit.html



Suckers.

You've been conned.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2017 - 08:59am PT
Well maybe YOU don't want a tax cut!
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 29, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Maybe YOU don't care about the deficit!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2017 - 09:14am PT
The deficit could be cut by restraining the crankloons in the Pentagon and going after those deadbeats who don't pay their student loans.
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 29, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Well, get on it. You guys are in complete control. Let us know how that works.

That is funny, you put pentagon spending and student loans in the same sentence. As if they are roughly equivalent.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2017 - 09:27am PT
you put pentagon spending and student loans in the same sentence.

You're so easy to have fun with!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 29, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
tRump playing pocket pool.

I bet he does that a lot these days based on the way Melania looks at him.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
like BeerBreeder I just long for the good old days..

when men were men and women and blacks knew their place and kept to it

when Father Knew Best

and there was no such thing as being "politically correct", yuck, lol, burp

ah the good old days when you could say anything you wanted and nobody cared

here's to you I raise my glass, good old boy Bubba BeerBelly !

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 29, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
Turns out he's borrowing them ..

What do you mean "he"?

The Russian bots are coming! The Russian bots are coming! Oh, whoops, I guess they already came.

What do you call it when it's the humans who are failing the Turing test?

Sorry to say humans, but we're f*#ked. There's one way for us to go, and it's not up.

Have a nice day!
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
Yeah, "boring."" Locker nails it.

Just more useless sheet to scroll through.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 29, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
I don't understand why you guys are giving the chubby Indian chick such a hard time...?
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
Message to President Trump, Recognize Christian Armenian Genocide

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
“I love the poorly educated!” Trump once exclaimed. Less educated Americans did vote for him.



Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:43pm PT
Amerikans for Armenia.

Do they have any oil?

Shonuff, but just don't let 'em call me call me your uncle Tom, Don.





zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
I know it's small Don, but just how little is it?



Pray for (oily) dick, dude.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 29, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
^^^^
Friday night posting while st00pid

Gathering of the Crankl00nz

Carry on L00zwers

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Get religion dude

[Click to View YouTube Video]



thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 29, 2017 - 07:22pm PT

No, but seriously, I will have problems voting in the USA after the DNC really screwed the political machine pooch in FL. I could dig some Unity Party Kasich-Hickenlooper kind of thing, but to continue the bullyshit divisive life (aherm, drunky posty above) is just not worth my gas to get to the polls.


Unity Party anybody?


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Sep 29, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
co sheafs fur trmpo

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 29, 2017 - 08:37pm PT

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Sep 30, 2017 - 06:35am PT
Who knew?

island

noun
1. a tract of land completely surrounded by water, and not large enough to be called a continent.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 30, 2017 - 09:43am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 10:05am PT
whyte laces

get a boot in yo ass

c wilmot

climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 10:36am PT
13 days after hurricane Harvey an estimated 70 people had been killed. 24 days after hurricane Irma an estimated 16 people have been killed...

Now remember the spat was in relation to this comment:

“a good news story in terms of our ability to reach people and the limited number of deaths that have taken place in such a devastating hurricane.”

I would say the San Juan mayor was blowing a lot of hot air
John M

climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 11:15am PT
AKA the homogenization of SuperTopo...

So basically.. He who can create the most noise wins on the internet.

Good luck with that. I would have voted him off, but realized it doesn't matter anymore because there is always someone to take his place. Plenty of noise out there. Not much signal.

Admittedly some of his stuff is funny. That last Castro bit. But the whole "white mans hatins on the po colored folk" schtick is old and boring.

Cheers
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 30, 2017 - 11:15am PT
No need for trolls here, locker, afaic.

A lot of people can't be bothered with the Taco, due to fools like bb. He's been booted from every other forum and its going to happen for him with ST.
John M

climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 11:38am PT
Not wrong.. not right either. I am admitting that you can't boot everyone. At the same time I am saying that I haven't found it possible to find an intelligent conversation on politics on the internet because the noise overwhelms most people and they get bored or disgusted and leave.

If you brought back Crowley, Fattrad, and a few others.. it might be more fun for you. But would that get Roger Breedlove to give his reasoned thoughts on politics. Or crimpergirl. Would it get back Brassnuts on a regular basis, or Russ or Hank? I doubt it. So I don't see any way to get what I would like. People knowing the line where being free spirited and full of piss and vinegar crosses over into just being an as#@&%e. And the problem with that line is that its different for everyone.

So yes... he who creates the most noise wins. Because it drives off those who get tired of the high noise to signal ratio. And if you boot everyone, then it becomes boring.

But which came first? You have a high tolerance for noise. So to you the booting drove the boringness. I don't enjoy that much noise, so to me the high noise to signal ratio is what drove the boringness because it drove away the people that I would like to hang with.

I also enjoy hanging with you because you are funny. And I believe a decent person with some zest and interesting experience. But you have learned to moderate your more extreme behavior.

look at the forums that allowed anything to go. They were just total meltdowns and didn't last long. Moderating also sucks.. ergo.. he who creates the most noise wins the internet.

But what do they really win? a circle jerk contest? seems pretty lame to me.
John M

climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 11:47am PT
I do too.. but not sure we agree on what constitutes "grain".

Hank, Russ, Roger, Crimpergirl are grain to me.

Bear breeder. not so much. And people like bear breeder are part of what drove the others away. Some would argue that I was part of driving them away too because I mostly posted to political threads and its the politics that drove them away. Thats possible too. Thats why I mostly don't post anymore.

I don't know what the answer is.

Cheers Locker. I hope that you are well and find the Taco that you want.

Edit:

What your Taco looks like to me: Extra spicy with a side of diarrhea.

What my Taco looks like to you: Mild with a side of boring...

LOL..
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 30, 2017 - 11:50am PT
Get your motor runnin, get out on the highway, before it becomes an oil drrick

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/travel/photos/000/Migration/78323.ngsversion.1470327730448.adapt.1900.1.jpg

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 2, 2017 - 08:10am PT
Too damn many guns. Period.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 2, 2017 - 08:10am PT
Stone has a rebuttal for every allegation made against him.. Stone should just shut up and quit singing like a little birdy... Seems like every time he opens his mouth he digs a deeper hole for himself...?
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 2, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
Gunman did use a bump stock device to achieve rapid fire. Will be interesting to see how the NRA defends this.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Las-Vegas-gunman-used-bump-stock-device-to-12247973.php
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 3, 2017 - 12:03am PT
Guardian: 3% of American adults own half of guns in the US

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/19/us-gun-ownership-survey
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 3, 2017 - 05:44am PT
Gunman did use a bump stock device to achieve rapid fire. Will be interesting to see how the NRA defends this.

The NRA is suing the LVPD for denying the gunman the free exercise of his 2nd Amendment rights.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 3, 2017 - 08:22am PT
I watched Kimmel last night.
He hit the nail on the head.

F*#k the NRA.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 3, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
I try and to try, no more political posts.

But just the sight of that orange hypocrite Trump, I try to see past my biases. I try to be objective.

I try.

But then I see Mr Trump and his idiocy. And it makes me wonder about the state of America.

He is a good showman, no doubt, he especially puts on a good show for his base. And the hurricanes and shootings defer from his problems, he must actually welcome such tragedies, as they deflect from his ongoing problems.

The guy is a farce, history will show that. Not me, not you. But time.

And any Trump supporters on the forum, or indeed smoking ducks with conspiracy theories, throw your best at me. I do not care what your feeble minds think. I can take your insults.

EDIT

I told myself when I reactivated my Patrick Sawyer account, refrain, be objective, be smart. Don't be suckered by the wind up merchants and trolls.

But Donald Trump is a different, difficult, kettle of fish. He does not believe in anything he says, Imo. And if so, how can one 'legislate' for that. A POTUS with no morals, no decency (he has shown it), no clue. Certainly no clue on The Constitution, on right and wrong, on governance.

And people blindly support him because he is a) not the establishment, well excuse me but if you are a billionaire, you are in the circle; b) an outsider, see a, billionaires are not outsiders; draining the swamp? With what? Diplomatic or statesman? Are you kidding me?

The guy has no clue how to run a country or be a leader. He has his base, and they l love him. Whoopee. He tweets and behaves like an adolescent. He is vindictive, he is juvenile, at best. This all shows in his behaviour. It is not my subjective view, Trump's behaviour is on show.

Charisma is not the same as showmanship.

A sorry state of affairs.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Oct 3, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
Patrick Sawyer:
But then I see Mr Trump and his idiocy. And it makes me wonder about the state of America.
I told myself when I reactivated my Patrick Sawyer account, refrain, be objective, be smart.
Patrick, if you want to be smart you need to stop your fixation on Trump.
You need to start thinking about what made possible ascent of Trump to power.

What do you really know about people who voted for Trump and who support him know?
It seems to me that you do not understand them.
Indeed, a sorry state of affairs.

Note: I agree that your posts are good from virtue signaling point of view.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 09:27pm PT
What role does the USA have in making the world a better place? Here is one way in which we fall short, and our domestic divisions have life and death consequences for people around the world:
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/03/u-s-votes-against-u-n-resolution-condemning-death-penalty-for-lgbtq-people-is-this-who-we-are/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 3, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
If you think the goal of people running the USA since they bathed two civilian Japanese cities in nuclear fire is to "make the world a better place" then you haven't been paying attention.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 10:57pm PT
Obviously the list of unsavory actions in the world sponsored by our nation is lengthy.

Just shining a light on stuff happening right now that we as citizens can be vocal about, stuff we can make voting decisions based on, to effect change in the world.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 5, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
“Patrick, if you want to be smart you need to stop your fixation on Trump.
You need to start thinking about what made possible ascent of Trump to power.

What do you really know about people who voted for Trump and who support him know?

It seems to me that you do not understand them.”

Yury, tell me who you think or where the ascent of Trump’s power came from and tell me some of the names of those people who did?

We are taking about understanding whom and why? Just interested if you know yourself or understand.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 6, 2017 - 11:25am PT
Administration narrows access to birth-control coverage under Affordable Care Act

So finally it is revealed in deed, not just in word. The goal is to abolish birth control, and get those women back into the kitchen with dozens of kids.......
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 11:30am PT
Red is just a state of mind, eh?
Deliver(ance) us from evil, Amen.





Something like 35% of folks surveyed support Trump.

Nobody needs to characterize their thinking [sic] process. Just get him out of the White House and into jail.


August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 6, 2017 - 11:34am PT

What do you really know about people who voted for Trump and who support him know?

It seems to me that you do not understand them.”

Nothing new about an angry populist making fantasy promises and stirring up fears, bigotry and nationalism.

Nothing new about the economic, social, and political conditions that cause some people to vote for an authoritarian leaning populist.

Same sh#t, different day.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Oct 6, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
I could say a lot more about the hypocrisy of power, religion, racism, sexism, and domestic abuse of which I've seen first hand throughout my entire life, but has become way more prevalent this past year. I am still trying to find the right voice for relating my experiences without being too judgmental, derogatory, or outing certain individuals for which I have such mixed (edit) feelings towards. It's a minefield out there, and it's difficult to remain objective and not wound others too deeply with my words.

Kindness is at a premium in today's world, if only we had the gift of a Fred Rogers type with which to speak our words, they might carry so much more weight.

Donald Trump is the kick them when their down mentality. He is at war with 65% of the American public, along with the rest of the human race. No good will come of it, dark days lie ahead. "A storm is coming, you'll see,… " obviously words ignorantly uttered by the catalyst of apocalyptic events.

I can see I'm not off to a very good start here so for now I'll beg off.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 6, 2017 - 03:40pm PT
Ken M writes:

"So finally it is revealed in deed, not just in word. The goal is to abolish birth control, and get those women back into the kitchen with dozens of kids....... "



All kinds of birth control is available free of charge at your friendly neighborhood County Health Department, as well as free medical care for women of child-bearing age.

Look into it, and you'll see.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 6, 2017 - 03:44pm PT
It's more nuanced, and it's happening all over the West. The main problem seems to be globalization. People in big cities are used to the cultural diversity. Not so much in rural areas.


The fear of unknown is strong. "Make America great again" means to many, stop changing everything, we want a simple life, stability,

You missed the mark soo many times with that statement Moose.

-"The main problem seems to be globalization". If you believe this then you follow the populist agenda...right?

-You are a white European man who can afford to climb, ski, travel at will. When you're not doing that you are f**ing around on the intardnet. Your life couldn't get much more privileged. You are completely out of touch with what goes on in the 'urban' or 'rural' worlds I suspect. You read about it so you must be an exspurt. Most people your age regardless of where they live are still working and prolly will till they die.

-Happening ALL over the West? What about the Midwest, East, South? WTF does your statement mean?

-WTF does cultural diversity have to do with rural areas and those peoples needs? You must think 'rural' areas means white people that vote for Trump? If that's the case then you are clueless. Rural areas are the only place minorities can afford to live a decent life. Spend some time in a 'rural' area and see who really lives there.

-"stop changing everything, we want a simple life, stability". How dare people want stability. You've been programmed to accept chaos. Should read..."stop fuking everything up, stop the policies that favor urban sesspool prison agendas" Chicago, Baltimore, SF, etc.

-Americans outside of the urban sesspools feel forgotten. That's what MAGA is all about. Not many people really wanted to vote for Trump but the alternative was Hillary. More corrupt liberal BS that only favors the 'urban' initiatives designed to crush the middle class. Hand the city keys to the rich crony politards and their friends. Social experiments destined to fail the 'lab rats'. Time and time again.

For the record I'm a registered DEM but I'm thru with that party until some changes are made. Pelosi and her ilk are every bit as evil as Trumpito and are in bed with the same criminal masters.

Cheers and enjoy your next vacation!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
I'm curious how pro-business/pro-jobs/anti-regulation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it folks think about this issue:
http://nypost.com/2017/10/06/suspected-bee-killing-pesticide-found-in-honey-samples/

To me it's a perfect example of why we need regulations, and why "the free market" can't regulate itself for all issues that affect humanity.

Maybe the silver lining is this: HUGE market opportunity and new jobs with robo-pollinators! Bring back manufacturing jobs!
c wilmot

climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
The world is changing whether they like it or not. Manufacturing jobs disappear, and soon automation will replace drivers, clarks, farm workers, etc.

You are correct. The "what then" reality is that those people are now reduced to working low wage jobs. Which is why they are increasingly angry at the liberal agenda of supporting illegals, open borders, and trade agreements that are not favorable to them.

one of the starkest divides between wealthier city folks and poorer people in the country is the fact that the wealthy city folk don't have compete for jobs with millions of people here illegally. Which is why they remain so tone deaf when it comes to the factors that put trump in office.

If your field of work was devalued by illegal workers and suddenly YOUR Privlaged life was in question- would YOU be upset about it?

Or would you capitulate to the...change?.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 6, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
DMT, quote or quit.

Not all the 35% are deplorables.....Some of the KKK folks, I'm assured by the President, are "very fine people" "trust me"
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 6, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
All kinds of birth control is available free of charge at your friendly neighborhood County Health Department, as well as free medical care for women of child-bearing age.

Look into it, and you'll see.

Hard to imagine someone is so ignorant and contradictory.

Your Saint, Ronald said "Gov't is not the solution to the problem, Gov't IS the problem"----and yet, your solution is a gov't program.

You desire to take middle class women, and require them to access programs designed for the poor---obviously, your plan for them is clear!

And on top of that, your ilk is doing everything imaginable to cut the funding of such programs, so as to make BC unavailable until such time as you can make it illegal to use.

Another GOP attempt to regulate what goes on in people's bedrooms, their goal for decades.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 6, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
-Americans outside of the urban sesspools feel forgotten. That's what MAGA is all about. Not many people really wanted to vote for Trump but the alternative was Hillary. More corrupt liberal BS that only favors the 'urban' initiatives designed to crush the middle class. Hand the city keys to the rich crony politards and their friends. Social experiments destined to fail the 'lab rats'. Time and time again.

Trump does not control the keys to the city. Most State Gov'ts are run by the GOP, however.

What does Trump do? He brings in a pile of Billionaires, businessmen who don't know sh#t about what they are being put in charge of. They basically steal from the taxpayer in various ways. The rich cronies are the GOP officeholders.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
Clearly and demonstrably bogus claim

Oct 6, 2017 - 04:36pm PT

Labeling 35% of the country as deplorables is wrong

It has pretty much happened on this board every day for, what, 2-years give or take?

Glad you've joined the tiny minority to speak out against it. Welcome to middle America! :)

Demonstrable you say?. Yeah. 291 instances of the d-word on the forum.

Some such as this:


Personally, I thought what Kristen Cooper did to Bode in the interview after his bronze winning race, was deplorable. Who does she think she is, Barbara Walters? Why hammer him on his brother that rec...

Are all Trump supporters "deplorable". Clearly not, but there for sure is a goodly sized chunk all up in there.

zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
It's not just semantics D. Do the search and read some of those 291 posts.

Let me break down for ya. Who is in the 35% group and what do they think?

And ya want vitriole and bullshit read the posts of your favorite Trump supporters on this forum regarding Hillary Clinton.





10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:14pm PT

Oct 6, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
The world is changing whether they like it or not. Manufacturing jobs disappear, and soon automation will replace drivers, clarks, farm workers, etc.

You are correct. The "what then" reality is that those people are now reduced to working low wage jobs. Which is why they are increasingly angry at the liberal agenda of supporting illegals, open borders, and trade agreements that are not favorable to them.

one of the starkest divides between wealthier city folks and poorer people in the country is the fact that the wealthy city folk don't have compete for jobs with millions of people here illegally. Which is why they remain so tone deaf when it comes to the factors that put trump in office.

If your field of work was devalued by illegal workers and suddenly YOUR Privlaged life was in question- would YOU be upset about it?

Or would you capitulate to the...change?.


Wait a minute. You agree that automation is replacing jobs, then you go on a rant about illegals taking the jobs of white people. Automation will take the jobs of legals, and illegals. Btw, California farmers say they are losing workers. Some are self deporting, and some are being deported. Want a job, wilmot?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
Understand, in your heart, that msny of them, many! Are good people of whom you'd trust as neighbors and friends. Start with that assumption amd then let each person sadly prove you wrong if they must, one at a time, without prejudice.

My point is simple, by demonizing 'Trump voters' folks alienate good people along with the bad.

"good" people make choices. When the choices they may are supportive of racists and supremacists, then maybe they are not always good people.

All information says that the shooter in Las Vegas was a "good person"---well thought of by neighbors, no trouble with the law. Your knee-jerk reaction to what is a "good person" sounds like it could use a little scrutiny.....

When "good" people make the choice to ally themselves and support women haters and racists, they may make a good BBQ, but that doesn't make them good people.

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from ... It is by his deeds that a lad distinguishes himself If his conduct is pure and right. Matthew 7:20
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
Don't get over it zBrown. Stay angry. Resist.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
Re Locker's above reply. I don't have the link just now, but valid scientific research shows that about 27% of the U.S. population believes the Sun revolves around the Earth.

I suspect those folks all support Trump, & will be his base when his lack of popularity melts down below 30%.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
10b - US workers should not have to compete for jobs with illegals. It's one of many factors lowering the wages of people who are already living lives on the margins. And this is not somehow limited to white people as you mistakingly assume.

You still don't get it
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:43pm PT
I don't have the link just now, but valid scientific research shows

Fritz is learning from his masters. Spread lies. Just believe the lie.

Find the link man...or keep living the lie. Don't post lame-o BS

k?
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
So you didn't read the posts did you DMT?

I did.


If you don't want to accept my opinion and idea on this topic then don't.

I don't.

BTW, I have family who not only voted for Trump, but also George Wallace.

I don't call them deploarble, just racist.







thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
human beans can be illegal? according to whom?
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^
zBrown-eye is starting to froth haha

What a clown
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 6, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
^z^z^z^

I've read all of your non-sense

Froth on man? ....same sh8t every time

You are a drooling mess

I wish I could slap you...silly, of course l0l

Stop being a tool z-crankl00n

**and deleting/editing like that worm crankl00n
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 6, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
I'll slap yur belly...big pink belly

I'll feed you Tums cause you'll get reflux you mess

z-douxhe
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Oct 6, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
froth much?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 6, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
Am backing up Fritz here, re:

Re Locker's above reply. I don't have the link just now, but valid scientific research shows that about 27% of the U.S. population believes the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Here's the NPS story: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

and the National Science Foundation survey: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/index.cfm/chapter-7/tt07-08.htm

Note that S Koreans were ahead of everyone (especially the EU) for the question, "Does the Earth go around the Sun, or does the Sun go around the Earth?" ;-)
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Oct 6, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
10b - US workers should not have to compete for jobs with illegals.

You still don't get it

Americans don't want most of the jobs "illegals" are taking.

We're fat, we're lazy.
Some get it.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 6, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
Thank you kunlun_shan.

And fuk-you DrF, master ST azehole troll.

Am backing up Fritz here, re:

Re Locker's above reply. I don't have the link just now, but valid scientific research shows that about 27% of the U.S. population believes the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Here's the NPS story: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

and the National Science Foundation survey: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/index.cfm/chapter-7/tt07-08.htm
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 6, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
We need that "Everyone I don't like is Hitler meme"....

please...

c wilmot

climber
Oct 7, 2017 - 06:29am PT
A quarter of Americans surveyed could not correctly answer that the Earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around, according to a report out Friday from the National Science Foundation.

Followed by:

The survey of 2,200 people in the United States was conducted by the NSF in 2012 and r


That is not "valid scientific research"... though it is telling that so many assume it's the truth without questioning how they came to such a conclusion.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 7, 2017 - 06:33am PT

You still don't get it

Answer the f*#king question
c wilmot

climber
Oct 7, 2017 - 06:42am PT
Post a rational question and I will . What I won't respond to is childish trolling like your previous "question"

I did however continue to try and explain to you the stresses on our workforce that resulted in a trump presidency. That of course is something you don't want to address as you either dont want to understand or are unwilling to. If you are not willing to listen- then you can not be helped. And I don't see how continuing to try and guide you along will have any benificial impact.

You can lead a horse to water...
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 7, 2017 - 07:15am PT
C Wimot-
10b - US workers should not have to compete for jobs with illegals. It's one of many factors lowering the wages of people who are already living lives on the margins. And this is not somehow limited to white people as you mistakingly assume.

This is such bullsh#t. Mom and Pop businesses like mine hire legal workers- the days of hiring day Laborers at Home Depot are gone.

I admittedly discriminate against entitled, lazy bitches that are incapable of producing a hard days work. These guys usually end up trolling on social media spreading fantasies of the White man's oppression. Ironically, most of the guys I know that perpetually cry about immigrants have low level government jobs (teachers, city workers, civil employees, etc.).
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 7, 2017 - 09:20am PT
The Hispanics also work much harder than the lazy Canadians...
c wilmot

climber
Oct 7, 2017 - 09:37am PT
- the days of hiring day Laborers at Home Depot are gone.


Oh man! Thanks for the laugh... if you actually believe this you are seriously delusional.


The rest of your post was the typical liberal gloatrage talking points with a heavy side of racism.

Let me guess- the only hard working white guy is you- right?

If only we could all be as superior as yourself
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 7, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
Since when did Home Depot hire "Day laborers"???...
Day Laborers hang out in the parking lot.

I get audited twice a year on my workers comp and the employment status of my subs employees.

We also get hit by OSHA at least twice a year. Nobody I know hires illegals- you'll loose your business.

And yes, I work with many white guys that bust their ass but the low wage entry level jobs are currently dominated by Latino workers. Mostly for lack of interest by white workers.

Curious- what personal experience you have of hiring Laborers, skilled workers, tradesman and sub contractors C Wilmot?

Thanks to Lazy f*#ks and cry babies , the job market is your oyster- get out there!




rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 7, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
The Hispanics work harder than all the lazy canadians...Except for Jim Brennan..
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 7, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
Republicans largely abandon their platform of fiscal restraint

Cutting spending to balance the budget was almost religion to Republicans for much of the past eight years, when they frequently clashed with then-President Obama about government spending and federal programs. Now, the GOP is charging forward with plans to significantly increase military spending and to cut taxes in a way that could add more than $1.5 trillion to the government’s debt over 10 years.


So all that screaming and hollering about the deficit and debt were total BS.

The GOP has now abandoned all pretense about caring about the debt. No more talk about "balanced budgets" "tearing up the credit card" even the debt limit.

You can understand a philosophy, even if one disagrees with it, but it is the blatant hypocrisy that should be making rank and file conservatives really angry.

And it's apparently going to be financed on the back of the middle class.

I don't know if I can stand all this winning......
Degaine

climber
Oct 8, 2017 - 04:12am PT
c wilmot wrote:
10b - US workers should not have to compete for jobs with illegals. It's one of many factors lowering the wages of people who are already living lives on the margins. And this is not somehow limited to white people as you mistakenly assume.

You still don't get it

It is you who still doesn't get it, and I'm surprised that this still needs explaining.

1) Crack own on employers, especially agribusiness, and illegal immigration will come to a grinding halt.
Agribusiness heavily and purposely recruits illegal aliens. To halt the flow of illegal Latino immigrants north (we're currently experiencing a period of net loss of immigrants from Mexico), start prosecuting Purdue, ConAgra, etc. That, however, seems unlikely, due to the pressure these companies are able to exert on Congress. If the US government starting cracking down on agribusiness, these companies in return would push for sensible legislation to allow their current workforce to be hired legally.


2) Automation
This has already been brought up but is worth repeating.

The US was the number 1 manufacturing country in terms of output until a few years ago, is now only second to China, and I believe will probably take back the top spot from China in a few years. The loss of jobs in the manufacturing sector is not due to illegal immigration, but to automation. Now most people working in a factory in the US have at least a Master's in some form of enigineering in order to handle the complex software and robotics used in most manufacturing facilities.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 8, 2017 - 05:41am PT
Degaine- I already pointed out the negative effects that illegals and automation have had on those living lives on the margins.

These economically stressed people had two choices:

One candidate promised to "MAGA", while getting rid of illegals, bringing back manufacturing, and re negotiating trade deals that have been unfavorable to them

The other candidate promised open borders, more illegals, globalization, and more trade deals that are not benificial to them

Who are these gullible disaffected voters going to vote for???


While yes- what needs to be done is a crackdown on employers who hire illegals. Unfortuently neither party has any interest in doing that as there is too much money to be made

Which is part of the reason we choose a figurehead to pretend they run the country.


Contractor- illegals have the same workplace rights as citizens in California. You live in a sanctuary state bro! they have made it amazingly easy to hire illegals. You just have to pay them minimum wage and provide the same workplace protections. If you are not taking advantage of that you are losing a lot of money needlessly. I hear they "hang out" at home depot

Check it out:

https://www.dir.ca.gov/letf/english_worker_mobile.pdf



Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 8, 2017 - 06:40am PT
he other candidate promised open borders, more illegals,

prove it, credible sources, enough of your delusional bs
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 8, 2017 - 08:50am PT
It's only a matter of time before the affects of global warming set in and the prime temperate agriculture belt shifts to Canada. America's heartland will become a scorching desert and Canada will be forced to build a wall to keep out American rapist and criminals.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 8, 2017 - 09:31am PT
^^^how do you say bad hombre in Quebec?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 8, 2017 - 09:53am PT
Nice!

Future Canadian first world problems- Redneck Mericans with leaf blowers...eh?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 8, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
#13
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 8, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 8, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
Trump is an incompetent blowhard...Sad watching some of his pathetic supporters falling for his used car sale pitch...How's the more affordable , better health care plan of his working for you...LMAO
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 8, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
you lie

prove it
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 8, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
RJ is such a yuuuge dummy. A real disgrace to humanity

Nothing has changed with the law.

It's going down the drain.

It will be apparent soon how fuked alot of people will be financially b/c of it(The ACA).

But that's what lib-doosh-RJ's want. They just want to cry about Trump.

No solutions, Just Cali-style bitching and confusion. RJC***ts!!

So Sour
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 8, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
Cosmic! Best wishes for your back getting better & your life (and attitude) improving.

You won't get even those wishes from the Republicans, who are taking care of their rich contributors, while folks like you, continue to be their voter base.

I'm sorry that Trump didn't do better by you, as yet.

On the bright-side, Las Vegas is some of the best "next-year" country on earth, so maybe next year, the Republicans will decide to help you.

I'll see what I can do for you, from my position as a member of Trump's Presidential Advisory Board & a lifetime NRA supporter.


edit! & drF, I won't bother to put in a good word for you.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 8, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
Ha!

Fritz is such a confused bitter OLD pill.

He chooses to use the Vegas tragedy to highlight his angry little-man reality

He hates so much that anything positive is a defeat

What a lowly Fritzee turd. P..U
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 8, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
drf...The bump stock on your butt plug jammed...? Lighten up...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 8, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
RJ...you're deflecting again

I'm just an amused observer.

You are the struggling clown.

Keep at it.

This place is your life.

Pretty wild ...and sad
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 8, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
I'm with RJ about drf & his butt plug.

drf...The bump stock on your butt plug jammed...? Lighten up...


drf is the classic 13 year old humorless obese, pimply Russian ST troll, that I recall no-one on ST has met or knows --------for good reason.

RJ & Fritz are known to many on ST as real humans, with a penchant for humor.

Hey drf?

Do you have anyone on ST that knows who the hell you "really" are?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 8, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
Had a conversation with a Korean War veteran, tonight. He said trump was a "sonofabitch"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 8, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
drF..." disgrace to humanity " I take that as a compliment...rj
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 8, 2017 - 09:32pm PT

Had a conversation with a Korean War veteran, tonight. He said trump was a "sonofabitch"




^^^ New York Times headline.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 9, 2017 - 07:54am PT

The British advertising and public relations company WPP has been one of the National Rifle Association’s most important political advocates in the last decade, with companies it owns collecting $1.46m (£1.1m) in lobbying fees since 2007 to further the US pro-gun group’s agenda.

At the same time as companies owned by WPP helped the NRA block gun control legislation in Washington, WPP sought to portray itself as being opposed to gun violence. A sustainability report on its website points to a 2013 pro gun-control advert that one of its advertising companies produced pro bono as part of WPP’s human rights work.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 9, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt announced Monday his agency's plans to withdraw the Clean Power Plan, the sweeping Obama-era rule regulating greenhouse gas emissions.

the EPA estimated the Clean Power Plan could prevent 2,700 to 6,600 premature deaths and 140,000 to 150,000 asthma attacks in children.

So cancelling it will results in approximately the same number of deaths of Americans, as on 9/11.

What do we think of someone willing to kill Americans, on the basis of adding jobs that are not particularly needed?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 9, 2017 - 03:33pm PT
The government , especially the god fearing republicans have never had any qualms about killing people , unless it comes to abortion and even then that hypocrite Murphy proved anything goes when it suits the conservative agenda...
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 9, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
I voted for John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2011

not because I thought both parties were terrible but because I could never vote for a black for President

I voted for Donald Trump in 2016 not because I was protesting both parties but because I would never for or a woman

just don't call me a racist or a bigot, or ignorantly lazy because those words hurt my feelings

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 9, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
Based on his tax plan, the health care plans he's endorsed, the regulations he's eliminated, how many false promises he's made, the treason he committed with the Russians, Trump hates uneducated whites more than any politician I've ever seen.
WBraun

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
the treason he committed with the Russians

There's no proof of any of that.

Just brainwashing by the corrupt intel agencies .....
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
Trump's popularity is slipping in rural America: poll by Reuters/Ipsos

It looks like my fellow rural-rubes are starting to figure out that Trump’s promises, performance, & moronic behavior are no longer worthy of support.

According to the Reuters/Ipsos daily tracking poll, the Republican president’s popularity is eroding in small towns and rural communities where 15 percent of the country’s population lives. The poll of more than 15,000 adults in “non-metro” areas shows that they are now as likely to disapprove of Trump as they are to approve of him.

In September, 47 percent of people in non-metro areas approved of Trump while 47 percent disapproved. That is down from Trump’s first four weeks in office, when 55 percent said they approved of the president while 39 percent disapproved.

The poll found that Trump has lost support in rural areas among men, whites and people who never went to college. He lost support with rural Republicans and rural voters who supported him on Election Day.
According to the poll, Trump’s overall popularity has dropped gradually, and for different reasons, this year.

Rural Americans were increasingly unhappy with Trump’s handling of healthcare in March and April after he lobbied for a Republican plan to overhaul Obamacare and cut coverage for millions of Americans.
In May and June, they were more critical of Trump’s ability to carry out U.S. foreign policy, and they gave him lower marks for “the way he treats people like me.”

In August, they were increasingly unhappy with “the effort he’s making to unify the country” after he blamed “both sides” for the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, in which a suspected white nationalist drove his car into a crowd of anti-racist demonstrators.

This chart shows net change in voter approval.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ruralamerica-poll/trumps-popularity-is-slipping-in-rural-america-poll-idUSKBN1CE162

beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
Her Braun what do you think of Manafort's giving manners lessons to known Russian thug Yanukovych in Ukraine right before he ran Trumps election?
WBraun

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
What do you think of all the times the hypocrite US has meddled in so many elections of other countries and overthrew their govts.

Murdered their leaders and installed their own puppets and then got rid of them later also.

You people are the biggest hypocrites ever wagging your hypocrite self-righteous little fingers at everyone on the planet ....
dirtbag

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
^^^What do I think?

Do unto others, but don't let them do unto you.

I'm fine with with that, actually.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
Trump's popularity is slipping in rural America.

Yeah, but he is still loved by window washers who don't have healthcare.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
Boo hoo hoo...^^^
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
stamp out ignorance

you LIE

prove it
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
I have never read even a summary of "Obamacare", what adults call the ACA

I admit I really don't know a damn thing about healthcare in America

I know how to complain, whine, and blame everyone but myself, I am too lazy to learn myself



I voted for John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2011

not because I thought both parties were terrible but because I could never vote for a black for President

I voted for Donald Trump in 2016 not because I was protesting both parties but because I would never for or a woman

drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Do unto others, but don't let them do unto you.

I'm fine with with that, actually.

In response to WB's post. Dirtbag is good with us trampling/overthrowing other nation states.

Just don't inconvenience dBag with the backwash.

What a dBag!

dirtbag

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
Sure. Not every time, or even most times, but I'm not hand wringing over the hypocrisy of it all.

Iraq, for example? No.
Iran circa 1954? NO.
Imperial Japan? Absolutely. Bad guys.
The Third Reich? Yep. Bad guys, too. Tried to wipe us and our allies out.

Other times? I don't know.

Tell us, wise Dr. F, your radical wisdom on this.
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
What do you think of all the times the hypocrite US has meddled in so many elections of other countries and overthrew their govts.

Murdered their leaders and installed their own puppets and then got rid of them later also.


If I'm Kim Sing Song, then I be thinking "I want my nuclear weapons, not MTV".
-Steve Banana Republic Bannon

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 9, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
I agree with Werner that the US has helped plenty bad hombres throw elections or supported many a coup but I would consider any of the conspirators in those countries as traitors to their people.

I'm looking forward to seeing Trump in an orange jump suit.

nah000

climber
now/here
Oct 9, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
zBrown wrote: "If I'm Kim Sing Song, then I be thinking "I want my nuclear weapons, not MTV"."

bingo.

when the leader of the "free" world stands in front of the united nations and says and i quote that "The United States has great strength and patience, but if it is forced to defend itself or its allies, we will have no choice but to totally destroy North Korea." he justifies every act that ole kim jung not so dumb, has done and will likely continue to do.

and before i'm accused of being a peacenik, let me be clear: if the orange shIt gibbon had said that the u.s. would have no choice under the above circumstances but "to totally destroy the leadership structure of north korea", then fair enough.

from my perspective, given the repeated launching of missiles over japan's airspace, the directly above probably should have happened already, regardless of the fact that there would be widespread consequences/death...

but threatening to "totally destroy" a country of 25 million people?

in front of the united nations?

sorry, when you are the leader of, once again, the "free" world, the words you choose to speak mother fUcking matter.



the only conclusion i can come to, given that there wasn't a revolution the next day, is that the u.s. has collectively gone mad.

and that the only wall needing building is an iron dome over the u.s.

too bad that is as stupidly impossible as building a non sieve based wall between the u.s. and mexico.



in sum: god help us all. not necessarily in the very near future, but rather in the 5-10 year range if we all continue to go down this road of collective madness.

and that includes every allied country and individual contained within those allied countries, that continues to say nothing... we are as much contributors to this madness as every silent american citizen...



finally, my apologies for bringing god into this.

given the "free" world's actions over the last 70ish years...

there is no reason that i can see for her not to have completely washed her hands of us.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 9, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
By Michael Gerson Opinion writer October 9 at 7:32 PM


Who is left to defend the simple, often admirable, sometimes disappointing American experience?

Our politics seems deeply divided between those who think the country is going to hell in a handcart and those who believe the country is going to hell in a handbasket.

Some of the tenured class that sets the intellectual tone of the left concluded long ago that America was built by oppression, is sustained by white privilege and requires the cleansing purity of social revolution (however that is defined). In this story, capitalism accumulates inequities that will eventually lead the rich to eat the poor. The American Dream is an exploitative myth. Change will come only through a coalition of the aggrieved. And those who are not permanently enraged are not paying proper attention.


But, at least on the populist right, the social critique is every bit as harsh. In this story, America has fallen in a boneless heap from a great height. It is unrecognizable to people — mostly white people — who regard mid-20th-century America as a social and economic ideal. The country has been fundamentally altered by multiculturalism and political correctness. It has been ruined by secularism and moral relativism. America, says the Rev. Franklin Graham, is “on the verge of total moral and spiritual collapse.” And those who are not permanently offended are not paying proper attention.


A poll taken last year found that 72 percent of Donald Trump supporters believe American society and its way of life have changed for the worse since the 1950s. And the most pessimistic and discontented lot of all was white evangelical Protestants. Almost three-quarters believed the past 70 years to be a period of social decline.

Those of us who remember politics in the Reagan era have a mental habit of regarding conservatism as more optimistic about the American experiment and liberalism as more discontented. But representatives of both ideologies — in their most potent and confident versions — are now making fundamental critiques of American society. They are united in their belief that the United States is dominated by corrupt, self-serving elites. They are united in their call for radical rather than incremental change. While disagreeing deeply about the cause, they see America as careening off course. Little wonder that Americans consistently say their country in on the wrong track by a margin of more than 2-to-1. Disgruntlement is our nation’s common ground.

What group believes that American society has gotten better since the 1950s? About 60 percent of African Americans and Hispanics. On a moment’s reflection, this makes perfect sense. Compared with life 70 years ago — when much of the country was legally segregated — daily life has improved for racial and ethnic minorities. As it has for gays and women seeking positions of social and economic leadership.


Many conservatives have failed to appreciate the mixed legacy of modernity. In recent decades, the United States has seen declining community and family cohesion, and what former U.S. surgeon general Vivek H. Murthy calls “a loneliness epidemic.” “We live in the most technologically connected age in the history of civilization,” he says, “yet rates of loneliness have doubled since the 1980s.”

But the flip side of individualism is greater social freedom. Who would not prefer to be in a racially mixed marriage today compared with 70 years ago? Or to have biracial children? When conservatives express unreserved nostalgia for the 1950s, they are also expressing a damning tolerance for oppression. It does appear like a longing for lost privilege.

The alternative to disdain for American society on the left and right is not to sanitize our country’s history or excuse its manifold failures. It is to do what reforming patriots from Abraham Lincoln to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. have done: to elevate and praise American ideals while courageously applying them to our social inconsistencies and hypocrisies. “What greater form of patriotism is there,” asked President Barack Obama in his admirable 2015 Selma, Ala., speech, “than the belief that America is not yet finished, that we are strong enough to be self-critical, that each successive generation can look upon our imperfections and decide that it is in our power to remake this nation to more closely align with our highest ideals?”


And this might be matched with a spirit of gratitude — for a country capable of shame and change, and better than its grievances.
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 10, 2017 - 06:19am PT
All owners? Let's see a Dallas Cowboy kneel during the anthem. Jones has already said it's mandatory to stand for the anthem. Let's see an Indie Colt kneel. They know what will happen if they do.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:15am PT
Of all the silly things to get worked up about ... kneeling during the anthem. Fer chrissake.

For some reason I’d always thought that participation in patriotic events were voluntary.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:46am PT
Amazing how fast the Ministry of Truth spins the propaganda cycle these days.

Got 50 dead in a very strange murder and it's just been about memory holed in less than a week once cracks appeared in the narrative.

What are the Kardashian's up to these days?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:59am PT
I think it's worth reposting dirtbag's post.

Of all the silly things to get worked up about ... kneeling during the anthem. Fer chrissake.

For some reason I’d always thought that participation in patriotic events were voluntary.


Trump's trying to fire up his base against the "uppity" (black) NFL players who are showing disrespect.

I don't give a schist about the whole thing either, and Trump's approval rating just keep dropping.

President Donald Trump's approval ratings have dropped in every state since he took office, according to a large new poll released Tuesday by Morning Consult.

The poll, which surveyed 472,000 registered voters between January and September, also found a 19-point drop in Trump's net approval ratings nationwide.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/trumps-approval-ratings-drop-in-every-state.html
Jorroh

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:03am PT
Ken M quoting Gerson.

"Some of the tenured class that sets the intellectual tone of the left concluded long ago that America was built by oppression, is sustained by white privilege and requires the cleansing purity of social revolution (however that is defined). In this story, capitalism accumulates inequities that will eventually lead the rich to eat the poor. The American Dream is an exploitative myth. Change will come only through a coalition of the aggrieved. And those who are not permanently enraged are not paying proper attention."

Classic straw man.... what complete and utter drivel.

Gerson is a great example of the virtual stampede of hypocritical right-wing pundits now trying to shirk their responsibility for the current state of conservative politics. Why listen to anything these guys (Will, D'Souza, Goldberg etc. etc. etc. ) say? They've proven their intellectual dishonesty over and over and over.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Oct 10, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
nah000:
from my perspective, given the repeated launching of missiles over japan's airspace, the directly above probably should have happened already, regardless of the fact that there would be widespread consequences/death...
It seems to me that the only logical direction for launching of a Korean ballistic missile is over Japan.

Japanese just need to get used to it.
Anyway, Americans were OK with such flights since October 4, 1957.
Why Japanese should be special?
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
Amazing how fast the Ministry of Truth spins the propaganda cycle these days.

Got 50 dead in a very strange murder and it's just been about memory holed in less than a week once cracks appeared in the narrative.

Fear...you are talking to zombies man. The story buried in less than a week...hhmm. The new norm?!?! The chumps here have moved onto the next distraction. NFL outrage!! They lap it up....lifeblood

On another thread the Crankloons are already taking about Donald part deux. Throwing in the towel already. Looozers

America is turning into the land of intardnet crankloon cowards
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
^^^^^
It's pretty simple fb

The ST mosh pit is more like a flea market situation

Frosty, I think you suffer from brain freeze no?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:55pm PT
Japanese just need to get used to it.
Anyway, Americans were OK with such flights since October 4, 1957.
Why Japanese should be special?

Really? Give a citation of ONE foreign missle flying over the US.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 10, 2017 - 09:25pm PT
^^^
step 1 - stop blaming other people
step 2 - MTFU
step 3 - $50 please
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:19pm PT

Again I ask our best troll?

drF!

I sigh for your little life.

Puberty is hard for fat boys covered with pimples, especially when they live in Russia.

Please tell us, if you have any ST folks that will vouch that you are really not a fat, pimply, Russian teen, but instead a bitter old American loser?
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:27pm PT
So back at the duck........


Contractor

Boulder climber
CA

Oct 9, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
I agree with Werner that the US has helped plenty bad hombres throw elections or supported many a coup but I would consider any of the conspirators in those countries as traitors to their people.

I'm looking forward to seeing Trump in an orange jump suit.

Don't give a damn about what we did THEN. Change can embrace progress. Humans, crows, monkeys and many species on this planet can adapt to live better in their environment. I'm concerned with a president whom I feel will lose certain cognitive test to crows, monkeys and possibly lizards. I feel bad for insulting lizards now.................
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:31pm PT
Holy sh#t Cosmic you got me:


Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!

Sep 28, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
So maybe I'm missing it but shouldn't it be 'your'ignorant, racist etc...? I've gotten so used to misspellings from Trumpies that it seems a given that they cannot use the English language correctly.


LOFL
You must be one of those DRUNK Beer Swilling Trumpies, Beerly.

It's "you're" not "your"

That's some funny sh#t . Yep I probably wound about ten beers in me to have such a spelling mistake ;)

I still can't fathom supporting a president whom seems to come from a 13 year old perspective (and I think 13 is being generous ).
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:41pm PT
beerlyman -- I would consider any of the conspirators in those countries as traitors to their people.

Unbelievable how st00pid and brainwashed you people really are.

Dumber than even Trump.

You really should stop talking as you really are an embarrassment to humanity .....
beerlyman

Social climber
State of Confusion
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
^^^^
Nope duck that doesn't work with me. Don't feel like copy and pasting one of cosmic's quotes and attributing it to you.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 11, 2017 - 07:58am PT
he other candidate promised open borders, more illegals,

prove it, credible sources, enough of your delusional bs
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2017 - 08:57am PT
beerlyman drunk fool you have been supporting genocide all your life due to all that brainwashed garbage in your tiny little head ....

(Do not reply as we already know your lunatic useless drunk responses)
nah000

climber
now/here
Oct 11, 2017 - 11:50pm PT
Yury: gotta admit, given your, in general, conservative trending stances, i'm pretty surprised we ended up on opposite sides of the coin on even this subject...

quick hypothetical question for you: you okay with bullets shot from neighbors guns flying over your own personal house? or just larger and foreign power launched ordinance flying over someone else's home country?

[not to mention you're seriously making an equivalence between sputnik and a ballistic missile???]
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 12, 2017 - 09:58am PT
Hey Nah000, we shoot ordinance over other people's countries all the time, with or without permission. In fact, we shoot at other countries all the time, and destabilize democratically elected leaders in other countries, and lay waste to other countries completely, on a very regular basis. Now what was your question again, and what was your point?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 12, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
HRC on May 16, 2013, to the Brazilian bank Banco Itau:

"My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere."



It's debatable what she really means.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
Unconscionable: trump threatens to cut off assistance to Puerto Rico.

Trump Warns Puerto Rico Weeks After Storms: Federal Help Cannot Stay ‘Forever’
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/us/politics/trump-warns-puerto-rico-weeks-after-storms-federal-help-cannot-stay-forever.html


His idea of draining the swamp, I suppose.

Motherf*#ker.
nah000

climber
now/here
Oct 12, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
Studly... given your tone, or at least given your tone as i understood it... wherein you seem to connote that you are saying something that wasn’t already said by myself [when i said a variation of exactly what you are saying on only the preceding page] and then you ask seemingly inane questions regarding questions that you didn’t bother to answer yourself... i suspect this will be my last response to you as you don’t seem to be looking for actual conversation...

that said i’ve been off base in my reading before so in case i’ve got your intentions all wrong here’s the short version of an answer to your questions - or at least my version of a short version... hahaha:

 Yury didn’t seem to be making your point which is that “we” [aka the u.s. specifically and the “west” in general that aids and abbets] are not in a position to complain, nay even act regarding our or our allies airspace being violated because we violate the air space of other sovereign nations. your point is interesting and i’ll get back to it. so my question was to Yury who given the date he used [the date of sputnik’s launch] seemed to be attempting to make the point that air space issues are a de facto thing of the past. i don’t believe this to be true. there is a reason that the u.s. asked permission in the 80s to test cruise missiles over canuck airspace, and there’s a reason that when the u.s. went flying into pakistani airspace without permission in order to grab bin laden it seemed to have relational repercussions. ie. Yury seems to be making the argument that japan, the u.s., etc should just get over it as it is just a part of our contemporary life. i think this is bunk and so was just curious as to where his opinion was coming from and so asked the question that i did [and which still stands]. so as per your first question as to what my question was: feel free to check back to my post as it hasn’t changed.

 your point on the other hand seems to be that, yes, it’s fUcked up for nk to be launching missiles over nippon but who are we to do anything when we violate basically the entire airspace of the middle east for example. now this is an interesting question. and i agree with you that ideally the u.s. should get the plank out of their own eye before they try to act as world police. that said i’m not a moral absolutist [even if i sometimes come across on ye ole st like one] and from my perspective the u.s.’s transgressions shouldn’t keep it from acting in a situation as serious as one where a rogue nation with basically no allies per se [i’m not saying china, iran and russia don’t have relationships with nk, i’m just saying that there isn’t one other country that is jumping up and down in support of nk’s more provocative actions of late] is: 1. violating the rights of its own people in ways that are on a scale and depth nearly unique in the world today; 2. fUcking around with the creation of more and more powerful nuclear weapons and 3. is testing ballistic missiles by firing them over a neighbour state who due to their own experience of being on the receiving end of them, has no intentions to have nuclear capabilities and who doesn’t even have a military capable of offensive action. to me the combination of all of the above is a bridge too far to be able to stand idly by, regardless of the u.s.’s/west’s transgressions [and you’ll get no argument from me that on that front there are many]

you, obv believe otherwise.

and so as per Yury, i didn’t really have a point as i was mostly just surprised by his opinion and was trying to get where he was coming from.

as per you: you can take the above as my point if you are in need of one.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 12, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
yes

Trump's order today will do a couple of things

1) It will allow some people to pay a lower monthly premium for their healthcare
and it will be lower because the insurance companies will now be allowed to take out all kinds of benefit coverage in order to sell it cheaper, for example a younger and healthier person who is willing gamble they won't get sick or in an accident serious enough to pay for quality hospitalization - they can perhaps also choose to have no prescription drugs coverage, no mental health coverage, perhaps young women can choose to buy a healthcare plan with no maternity coverage and gamble they won't accidentally get pregnant.

2) Ok so yes, some people, presumably the younger and healthier willing to gamble will benefit but those same people will then be taken out of the main healthcare pools and that will weaken those pools, make them less stable and cause the insurers to raise the monthly premiums for everyone else because the money won't be coming in from the young and healthy to keep the montly payments reasonable for those sicker and costing more.

Like all insurance, take car insurance for example, if older people who have the least accidents were put in their own special pool their payments would go down because that pool would not have the young hot head car drivers in it. But then the younger people would have such very higher premiums many of them could not be able to insure their cars and would have to break the law and the take the risk of driving without insurance.

Just the other day Henry Kissinger visited Trump in WH and Trump said that he did not want to see Henry's monthly healthcare premium go up sharply because of "Obamacare".
Most people were stunned by this comment, given that Kissinger is on Medicare, as is everyone over age 65, and does not get his healthcare through the ACA exchanges,
Clearly, our President is clueless of even this simple fact that it is obvious that he does not know that the older, sicker people who were a big part of his election are now going to be the exact ones hurt the most by his executive order today. Yes, he is that ignorant.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Oct 12, 2017 - 06:31pm PT
nah000:
Yury: gotta admit, given your, in general, conservative trending stances, i'm pretty surprised we ended up on opposite sides of the coin on even this subject...
nah000, I apologize for a delayed response and for not reading Supertopo frequently enough.

As for my "conservative trending stances" I want to repeat that I support universal healthcare, free post-secondary education, subsidized childcare, democracy, freedom of speech, abortions and I am against capital punishment and any war.

I do not believe that my response can be measured using conservative/progressive scale.
In my experience peacenik-warmonger is a dimension independent of conservative-progressive dimension.

quick hypothetical question for you: you okay with bullets shot from neighbors guns flying over your own personal house? or just larger and foreign power launched ordinance flying over someone else's home country?
Nuclear weapons is the only mean for North Koreans to prevent US aggression (please feel free to call it "peacekeeping operation").
So no treaty would stop them from building nukes.

Launching a ballistic missile from their own territory is the only reliable option for North Koreans because they do not have remote colonies/territories.
In this case the only logical direction is to launch it in Eastern direction (over Japan or Russia's Far East).

If Japanese are not happy with such launches, they need to offer other options (like locating North Korean test site on Japanese territory).

The same is true for Iran.
Sooner or later they will build a nuclear bomb.

We just need to get used to a world with more countries with nuclear weapons.
I do not see any real way to prevent proliferation.

We need to understand that this would significantly increase a risk of a nuclear war.
According to my prediction sooner or later nukes will be used in a real war.

So our main focus should be on limiting scope of such war.

Right now my main concern is an increased risk of war between US and Russia (because of continuous aggressive deployment of additional US troops and weapons near the border of Russia).
In this situation I want to see a clear procedure of escalation of a conventional war by Russia.
E.g. I want a declaration by Russia that in case of a war with US first they would hit European bases with nukes without hitting US mainland.
In this case they would send a message to US that they are serious and would allow US to disengage.

We need to have special talks between US ad Russia on policies for escalation/de-escalation of nuclear wars.
In 21st century talks about elimination of nuclear weapons are just smoke and mirrors.

I feel that the noise about North Korea is purely for US internal consumption as a way to distract Americans from more important issues.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 12, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
"Someone else will Pay " is another phrase for the poor and middle class are going to get raped so that Trumps owners can continue making obscene profits...Thanks Donald..You're the best...
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 12, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
open borders now?

what borders are open?

the Canadian one, they sneaking in?

surely not the southern one, with more "illegals" leaving than coming in, thanks to the Deporter in Chief, President Obama

somebody lose their grape picking job to a Salvadorian?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 12, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
Where are these open borders? Because every time I leave the country it takes an hour or more to get back in. It would be nice to avoid that. Maybe I should buy a ⛵️
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 12, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
E.g. I want a declaration by Russia that in case of a war with US first they would hit European bases with nukes without hitting US mainland.
In this case they would send a message to US that they are serious and would allow US to disengage.

Really? And what happens to the NATO alliance in your scenario?

All those countries depend upon the US for nuclear deterrent, now forced to get their own nukes, and as you've stipulated, decreased stability in the world?

Don't think much of your strategy. Of course, the Russian declaration would be worth the same as all declarations by Russia, totally worthless and meaningless, because they have no honor.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 05:55am PT
Two more examples of Trump shitting his diaper.

Trump is eliminating the Obama Care cost sharing subsidies paid to insurers to help those with low incomes- "immediately".

He is rolling back clean air and water regulations and slashing the EPA budget by a third.

It's clear that the priority is to free up as much revenue as possible for a fat tax cut for the wealthy while fuking over the legacy of that Kenyan.

The sh#t filled diapers are disproportionately piling up on the low income Trump supporter and their families- this is terrible.





Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2017 - 07:44am PT
Once again Trump plays to his voting base - haters.


Donald Trump to become first president to speak at anti-LGBT hate group's annual summit

Donald Trump is to address the annual conference of an anti-LGBT group which has been classified as a hate group.

The US president will become the first sitting president to address social conservative activists and elected officials at the Value Voters Summit in Washington DC on Friday.

President Trump has addressed the event which is hosted by the Family Research Council three times in total and did so last year as the Republican presidential candidate.

The Family Research Council opposes and actively lobbies against equal rights for LGBT persons. The conservative Christian group campaigns against same-sex marriage, same-sex civil unions, LGBT adoption, abortion, embryonic stell-cell research, pornography and divorce.

Every year the conference sparks controversy for its choice of speakers and in 2010 the Southern Poverty Law Centre, a legal advocacy organisation which specialise in civil rights, went so far as to classify the Family Research Council as an anti-gay hate group.

Richard Cohen, the president of the Southern Poverty Law Centre, condemned President Trump's decision to address the event.

“By appearing at the Values Voter Summit, President Trump is lending the legitimacy of his office to a hate group that relentlessly demonizes LGBT people and works to deny them of their equal rights," he told The Independent.

"His appearance puts the lie to his campaign promise to be a friend to the LGBT community. Bigotry is not an American value, and our president should speak out against it.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-become-first-president-162200264.html
dirtbag

climber
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:57am PT
"Someone else will Pay " is another phrase for the poor and middle class are going to get raped so that Trumps owners can continue making obscene profits...Thanks Donald..You're the best.

Always.



Trump university is who he is.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 13, 2017 - 11:06am PT
"Someone else will Pay "

foo, jigum jack - I got mine so why would I care about anyone else?

said one chimpanzee to the other..
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2017 - 11:22am PT
Trump plays to the supertopo forum politard clowns.

They spend all their time drooling at him.

You politards here are his st00pid bitches.

Yep ......

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
I build houses for the wealthy and by no large measure do I rely on fedral, state or local government funding for income or retirement.

So who is Trump playing?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 13, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
I build houses for the wealthy and by no large measure do I rely on fedral, state or local government funding for income or retirement.

So who is Trump playing?


well certainly not you, sir - from your job the assumption is those much worse off than you

but then again, perhaps he did play you, Contractor, assuming you get your own health insurance through a health insurance company that, as of today also, will lose people paying into your pool who will choose Trump's new cheaper plans with much less coverages, thereby depriving your pool of their money and causing your own monthly payments to go up sharply, so says the healthcare analysts


The good news, if that’s the way to put it, is many health plans have already accounted for Trump pulling the CSR payments in their 2018 rates. So people ineligible for subsidies are going to see higher premiums next year because of Trump’s threats, but that was already true before he formally decided to end the payments.

According to Axios, about 6.7 million people bought Obamacare-compliant coverage without subsidies, either on the law’s marketplaces or off them. Those are the people feeling the pain from this uncertainty.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/13/16468788/obamacare-open-enrollment-cost-sharing-reductions-trump
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Hell bent to erase the black man's legacy. He will throw anyone under the bus to do it. He looked like a complete racist idiot with his "birther" crusade, and this is his "pay back" for being made to look like a fool. Nothing but a selfish, obese, heartless bastard feeding his deformed "tween" ego, and dragging this country through the shitter in the process.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 13, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
So who is Trump playing?

He's just projecting, no need to feed if ya know what I mean.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 13, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
trump a christian? more like a liar, and hypocrite.
trump is about as much a christian as I am. I am a proud atheist.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 02:33pm PT
Norton, poor comprehension on my post and my politics in general-sir! Haha.

I have Kaiser and pay part of my Superintendent's insurance by choice. I'm healthy and have a decent income so my insurance went up under Obamacare to help make up the cost of the elimination of "pre-existing conditions" for others, as I understand the increase- which I'm fine with.

The point I'm making is that I and other progressives here are willing to pay extra and work harder to help our fellow man.

Trump's economic plan and his intensions are to favor a sliver of society at the detriment of many. My reference, as to "being played" was to Werner, who I assume at one time, was paid in part by the state or some government agency- Perhaps I'm wrong there.



zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 13, 2017 - 02:37pm PT


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
+1 for Contractor. More compassion and empathy will make this a better country. Hate and intolerance will be our downfall.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 13, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
yes, a big +1 for Contractor

------


And today Trump was invited to speak to the "values Voters"

who had no problem at all kissing and ring and honoring his three marriages, 3000 business lawsuits, his now closed charity, his now closed University who was ordered by a judge to pay back 25 million dollars to those he defrauded, five military deferments, four business bankruptcies, and his speech grabbing women by the.... values speaker indeed
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
Not one peep from the Loonitards here about their fallen hero Winesteen.

Hillary scrubbed the whinesteen intro to her latest dismal book at the last second.

Hanoi Jane is getting out in front of it tho admitting she knew all along about the rapes.....and she's so soooooory for keeping her yap shut for once.

#libtardazzhats#
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 13, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
gonna finally graduate high school this year, honey boo boo?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
Cosmic & drF must be feeling gud tonight, after their boy Trump had a bigly 24-hours of being an arse-hole to many Americans & most of the World.

Fuk the poor out of their Obama-care health-insurance, Fuk our closest European allies on an Iran Treaty that everyone but Trump & his fellow paranoids say is working just fine & then spit on environmentalists, Mexicans, & Republicans in Congress.

From Reuters News: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-analysis/in-a-sudden-flurry-trump-looks-to-deliver-for-his-voters-idUSKBN1CI32Xhttp://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-analysis/in-a-sudden-flurry-trump-looks-to-deliver-for-his-voters-idUSKBN1CI32X

Trump took steps to dramatically undercut the Obamacare health system, sent notice he was willing to scuttle the nuclear deal with Iran, moved to roll back coal-plant limits, and again demanded a wall along the Mexican border.

And on social media the Republican president appeared to relish his feuds with the news media, senior Republicans in Congress, and National Football League players who have protested during the national anthem.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
Hey T. Hocking, per your post!
Hey politards there's a better game on,
who do ya like, Yankees or Astros?
Go Stros!


Fritz shuffles his feet in sudden guilt & replies:

Well Tad, I have more important things to do tonight. I'm planning on watching my old favorites WSU playing CAL tonight in Beserkaly at the newly named "Fire-smoke bowl." On ESPN at 7:30 Pacific time.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
Cosmic & drF must be feeling gud tonight, after their boy Trump had a bigly 24-hours of being an arse-hole to many Americans & most of the World.

My comments have nothing to do with Trumpito...Fritzee, you wino drunk living amongst the very people you hate. Yur a classic sell-out.

My comments are aimed squarely at you clueless azzhats who nosh on NBC/MSM. You are always sooo clueless to what's really going on. You eat up the lies. I can't help you tho. Yur f***ked unfortunately.


Hey politards there's a better game on,
who do ya like, Yankees or Astros?
Go Stros!

T Hocking. I gotta go with the Yanks. I grew up in Northern NJ. Seen many a game in the Bronx back when it was perpetually burning. Should be a good series. Stros' are a pretty sick team

Then you have Locker body shaming young girls. Not surprised. He's a stoned, l00zer old prevert
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
^^^^
How many times will lockStein re-edit??
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 06:43pm PT
I grew up in Northern NJ
I was wondering...thanks for the explanation.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
Ho man Contractor...what a burn!! lol

Your tiny brain popped a bit. What does it mean?

haha you dummy
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
You're right Drf- My brain popped and I went for it. This sh#t would be so boring with out you. Keep it somewhat tame though, my buddies Chief and Esco got canned and I can't imagine life without you!

I know you're not a total troll because you commented about Ron Carson stance drilling once.

Cheers!

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
Sigh!

Drf, I too should have guessed you are from northern N.J. It shows if you know.


Re your feeble nasty comeback:
Fritzee, you wino drunk living amongst the very people you hate. Yur a classic sell-out.


I'm quite at home here with my fellow Idaho natives. Only about 60% of us are Republicans & since I'm a fellow, somewhat more liberal, Republican, I count in that total, since I'm fond of many of the same things Idaho folks like.

I however, don't tolerate asshat trolls like you well. Have you found anyone here yet to vouch for you, that you aren't a fat, pimply, Russian teenager? I can't wait to learn that you really are a bitter old loser, escaped New Jerseyite.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
I know you're not a total troll because you commented about Ron Carson stance drilling once.

Cheers!

Cheers to you as well!

In person, these words would be laughable. I like to light it up on this forum for fun. Some of the posers here are a real mess!

Yes..bitd I had some good sessions at the Needles. Watched 1st hand Ron, Lechlinksi, Gilje, & Gingery do their thing. Legends
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
Nice- Ron is quality people! Keep up the work, thick skin is a good thing.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
Sigh!

Drf, I too should have guessed you are from northern N.J. It shows if you know.

What's wrong w/ N. NJ? It's a liberal bastion. You're nook.

You're always 'sighing' Frizzles. Out of breath still? What up?

Meet me in Jerome at the Subway. I'll bring a tank of O2 for you. Will even let you rough me up for your sake haha. Big turn-on for Heidi. But don't 'blow' it too soon ol'boy l0l
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
" From the closet ".. ? No , the Subway in Kernville...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
classic
"watched.....do their thing"
from the closet?

Yuk Yuk. No. Hung out. Belayed. Followed. Learned. Early repeats of their 'out there' routes. Dulldrills, Liquid Sky, Shadows in the Rain.

What were you doing frosty? rJ was washing dishes at the Nugget
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
The Nugget...? You're killin me...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
So! drF wants me to meet him in Jerome (locally pronounced hair-o-me) to meet & beat him up?

Why do I not believe him?

A troll, that is now pretending to be from N.J., have a climbing background & live in Idaho? Who is likely still: a fat, short, pimply Russian teenager with a map of the U.S.?

Maybe the now banned, growth-challenged, rage-aholic, previously known as THE CHIEF??

Go away troll, you are harshing our mellow.

drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 14, 2017 - 01:24am PT
^^^^^
Bwahaha. ol'Fritzzee off the mark as usual. That's always been your problem. Me being a kid in NJ comment has you all spun out. That must mean I'm a right-winger? You and your little buddies here are master projectors. What a shocker! l0l

I really don't want to meet you. You're a foolish curmudgeon underachiever. I just enjoy flipping you(clowns) schist.

I've climbed right next to some of your crew tho at Bath Rock, Breadloves, other crags during some of your COR jamborees. I could have met you then too but you were nowhere to be found. At least those folks were respectable climbers. You were prolly buried in a fantasy(and the first 1/2 of a box whine) getting your bitchy snark flowing...or sighing?

Butt you keep on clowning' on brah! ;-)
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Oct 14, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
Ken M:
Of course, the Russian declaration would be worth the same as all declarations by Russia, totally worthless and meaningless, because they have no honor.
Ken M, most people would agree that we have better rule of law in the US than in Russia.
However it may be counterintuitive that in international relations we have an opposite situation - Russia following the laws and Americans doing whatever suits them and disregarding international treaties and obligations.

Do you mind playing the following game to substantiate your point of view?

1. First you describe a violation of international treaty or obligation by Russia.
Then I describe a violation of international treaty or obligation by the US.
2. We repeat such steps in turn until one of us runs out of examples.

I believe that I have a fair chance to win this game.

Please do not feel compelled to participate in this game.
There is no shame for an American patriot in retransmitting official government propaganda even if he can't support it with facts.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 14, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
I'll start with the first 20-----Russia assassinating it's citizens to stifle their dissent. I believe that murder is illegal in all countries.

Now you name 20.
But you haven't responded to my query about what missles have been launched over US airspace. Afraid to?

BTW, that would also violate international laws, so you'll be giving evidence against yourself......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 14, 2017 - 07:35pm PT
The radioactive martinis are to die for...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Oct 14, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
Ken M, AFAIK Barack Obama had been approving killing of several hundred people abroad per year.

https://www.google.ca/search?&q=obama+kill+lists
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 17, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
Cosmic...Didn't see anything in your article that said the Clintons or Obama were involved...No charges filed against either one of them...? Am i missing something here...?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 17, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 17, 2017 - 07:04pm PT
Cosmo, you deserve what Trump has in store for you tenfold.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Oct 17, 2017 - 07:47pm PT
One would think you would, or could think clearer, Dwain. You're in fairly dire physical shape.
They don't like you. They don't care when you die.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 17, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
You deserve what Trump has in store for you tenfold

HaHa. Crankload is sooo confused

Doesn't realize she is 110% responsible for Trump.

Arrogance.
Apathy.
EG0
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 17, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
Cosmic, re your above response post to Crankster:

Oct 17, 2017 - 07:35pm PT

Crankster: You deserve what Trump has in store for you tenfold.


Cosmic: I sure hope so.


Sigh, It is true that we live in different worlds, despite similar backgrounds, since I perceive Trump as a rich teenaged bully, that is now living out his geriatric fantasies by kicking butt on those that always despised him for being a stupid, but rich as#@&%e.

Then of course, I hate his tweets. I also can't believe that any woman with a sense of self-esteem, or a decent man, voted for him after his "pussy-grabbing" tape came out. His dodging the Vietnam draft, while currently wrapping himself in the U.S. flag, & his pretended conversion to Evangelical Christianity, also sicken me.

That's just the short list of things I hate about Trump. Like I said, you & I live in different worlds.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 17, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
Piece of sh#t.


In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson, Trump told her, “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” according to the account of Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.), who was riding in a limousine with Johnson when the president called and heard the conversation on speakerphone.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/twelve-days-of-silence-then-a-swipe-at-obama-how-trump-handled-four-dead-soldiers/2017/10/17/521524e0-b356-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?utm_term=.1ad4717814a7
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 17, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
Sigh, It is true that we live in different worlds, despite similar backgrounds, since I perceive Trump

Always....sighhhhing. GaG!! Passive aggressive Fritzee the bag of hot, foul air.

Fritzee's world is that of family money and privilege.

High end thief's

Cheers...they sooooo deserves it!

WBraun

climber
Oct 17, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
Most military doesn't like politards to begin with.

When we were in Indonesia working for the Vice President, the Army units that we flew in their helicopters hated the Vice President and tried to sabotage his gig .....
WBraun

climber
Oct 17, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
The only one who likes Hillary is st00pid kráňk100n who loves criminals .....
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 17, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
The secret service hated the idea of taking a bullet for Hillary because she was so mean to them

Because she wouldn't let them have prostitutes while on duty.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 17, 2017 - 10:20pm PT
I sigh once again for our troll drF, aka the Chief, who posts about me:

Fritzee's world is that of family money and privilege.

High end thief's

Not so, azzhole. I did grow up in fashionable Ketchum/Sun Valley Idaho, but things were different back in the 1950's & early 60's. My father went from working 80 hours a week, running a Chevron Station/auto repair/tow truck business, to a relaxed career running a welding & metal working shop, then drove school bus & plowed snow to survive, at a working-class poor level.

I grew up fishing & hunting for food to eat. My father had a heart-attack & died when I was 20, & our current prosperity is mostly due to Heidi & me pinching pennies, working our asses-off, & investing wisely.

So fuk you, loser!
c wilmot

climber
Oct 18, 2017 - 06:19am PT
Sounds like baby boomer white privlage to me fritz
c wilmot

climber
Oct 18, 2017 - 06:25am PT
You are the Barney of supertopo tad
WBraun

climber
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:59am PT
Americans can't think, they've been rendered into completely st00pid sheep by Google Jigsaw as evidenced by the poster above and his Nukeness ......

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
Hillary , during the final weeks of the presidential election , was going to jail after Comey leaked about the missing email investigation...She's still on the loose but surely the illegal uranium sale will finally put her behind bars...Now if they could just nail Obama , America's healthcare problems would be solved...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
I grew up fishing & hunting for food to eat.

HaHa. Such a delusional BS-errr. I love it!

Scrounging for food, Getting FAT', Traveling Europe.

Hmmmmm???

Such a lying d#@&%e white man.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
RJ! I just mailed in my input on what Trump needs to do in my monthly Trump Presidential Advisory board survey response.

Please, note my cards for that select group & the NRA in the below photo.

So the survey gave a list of 10 Trump goals for changing America, & asked me to rate my priorities on them, # 1 to #10, with a chance to write in one goal, I thought more important, than the boring goals listed, like:
BUILD A WALL AT THE BORDER
INCREASE MILITARY SPENDING
CUT TAXES ON THE SUPER-RICH & CORPORATIONS
DESTROY THE ENVIRONMENT
ETC.

boring goals for a leader like President Trump.

In a inspired moment I wrote in:
JAIL BOTH THE CLINTONS & OBAMA.

Thanks RJ, I'm glad to see we agree on the #1 priority of the Trumpster.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
Fritz...Thanks man...Let me know if you wanna burn some crosses before the lawns turn brown...Awesome how posters have fallen for your rich guy routine....LMAO...rj
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 18, 2017 - 08:08pm PT

Terry, how much longer you figure until his account is deactivated?

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 18, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
It's true drf- you're gonna get booted.

To blend in just pick a random thread and utter some non-threatening and nonsensical sh#t from time to time.

The "What is mind?" thread would be a good start- throw the words "cognizance" and "percipient" around a few times. That should get you enough brownie points stalk us liberals for a time without getting axed.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 18, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
RJ & all, Halloween is coming, & it gets ugly in Idaho these days.

between the vampire wolves,


and the Trumpkins

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 20, 2017 - 10:52am PT
This is pretty funny: http://www.worstpresidentever.org
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 20, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
Cosmic, some of your friends?

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-richard-spencer-speech-20171020-story.html
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
I never thought I would be reading let alone sharing an article from Vogue magazine. Strange times we live in when that is where we find political commentary keeping the big picture in perspective:
https://www.vogue.com/article/weinstein-donald-trump-alleged-sexual-abuser-in-white-house

For those who don't like to click and read: it's basically calling out the cognitive dissonance of society roasting Harvey Weinstein and yet nobody talks any more about the piles of sex-abuse stories against Trump. Maybe the people who want abortions to be illegal and Mexicans to be deported don't care so much about what happens to some Hollywood producer, so they can face that one.

Or, maybe it's not so much a cognitive dissonance as a societal schism. The liberal folks feeling all apoplectic and impotent in the face of Trump's transgressions, well they looked around and found a symbol they could take down. It doesn't seem to be enough to quell the outrage and more symbols will fall, at least as long as the press can maintain a high click-through rate with the headlines. The big question is, will people get bored and the fire burn itself out, or will it spread and be relevant for elections?

Hard to say whether the era of cavemen is coming to a close. Not a bet I'd feel comfortable wagering money on.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 21, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
NA...you're quoting Vogue magazine?? Disappointing

The liberal folks feeling all apoplectic and impotent in the face of Trump's transgressions, well they looked around and found a symbol they could take down

U Dummy. There was no symbol. The ruling libs(you're role models) protected the rapist Whinesteen forever. His BS caught up with him. So the lib liar media tries to take down Trumpito to divert... but couldn't b/c there is no evidence .Just like Russia.

Trump may be a doosh...but he's YOUR d#@&%e!!

You're life is based on lies. That's really shi**y. I'm Sorry!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 21, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
I'm dyin....LMAO...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 22, 2017 - 08:23am PT
Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes paid Millions to quiet the sexual harassment charges against them.
And the Fox News millions of viewers all couldn't care less what these 2 sexual predators did behind the scenes
They gave Bill a Raise a couple weeks before he was fired.
Eric Bowling was sending dick pics, Steve Ducey and Kilmead were implicated in more sexual harassment cases,
Fox had high paid lawyers working behind the scenes to quiet the leaks and pay off victims.

Conservatives don't give a damn about sexual harassment unless they can use to bloodgen liberals over the head with it
Trump hired Ailes after he was fired at Fox to help his campaign!!
Truly the pinnacle of hypocrisy
At least Weinstein is gone, he may go to jail even, why the double standards??

Trump, the pussy grabber and chief also paid out millions, he is no better than any of these despicable humans that lie, steal, cheat, harass, bully, assault, smear, and hate for a living.
so called 'conservatives'

A new term describes them perfectly
"Christian Supremacists"

drF. is not the Chief, he is SkipT.
Banned from ST more times than anyone else,
his only climbing fame is that he was at the Needles one day when some hotties were there.
Just a hate filled liar, some one needs to have him banned again.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 22, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Trump, the pussy grabber and chief . . .

Oh, is there evidence he actually did this rather than simply mouthing off? Maybe a stained dress? Just curious.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 22, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
Oh, is there evidence he actually did this rather than simply mouthing off? Maybe a stained dress? Just curious.

well, if evidence is defined as lawsuits filed by women he grabbed then yes

if fact there is a law suit going on right now, use google and put in "trump sexual lawsuits"
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 22, 2017 - 12:22pm PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 22, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
He said
"you can grab them by the pussy"

What happened to Trump saying that he was going to sue the women that accused him of sexual harassment after he became President?
He lied, no suits.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 22, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
Like anybody believes anything potty mouth Trump tweets anymore...Oh , but he's a christian...LMAO
c wilmot

climber
Oct 22, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
Apparently the left has forgotten the $850,000 settlement the Clinton's paid Paula jones to keep her quiet...

Like with Weinstein- it's all ignored so long as the leftwing agenda rolles on..even if it means rolling over women
Jorroh

climber
Oct 22, 2017 - 02:47pm PT
No, Not forgotten CWilmott.

Does Clintons or anybody elses sexual harassment absolve Trump for his?

Every 5 year old in a playground understands why this is a fallacious argument. Not C Wilmott apparently.

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 22, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
Apparently the left has forgotten the $850,000 settlement the Clinton's paid Paula jones to keep her quiet...

typical, desperate effort to deflect and dodge attention away from your beloved President

this time by cleverly bringing up a Democratic President's own sexual moral failings

lol, as if Clinton's behavior somehow excuses Trump's, see...I found another President!

grow up, your boy is judged on what he says and does and not by what Clinton did 20 yrs ago

monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 22, 2017 - 04:34pm PT

...just like Trump paid $25 million to keep people quiet about his scam university.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 22, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
Senate Republicans passed a budget late Thursday night, setting the stage for the GOP's ultimate goal of tackling tax reform later this year.
The measure is estimated to add $1.5 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years

Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., a member of the Budget Committee, told reporters Thursday afternoon, "This is the biggest hoax hatched upon the American people ever, that this budget process even exists. The only thing about this that matters is preparation for tax reform."
The Senate’s plan passed along party lines, with 51 Republicans voting in favor of the bill, and all Democrats voting against it.

“This nasty and backwards budget greenlights cuts to Medicare and Medicaid in order to give a tax break to big corporations and the wealthiest Americans,” Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-republicans-pass-budget-15-trillion-deficit-step/story?id=50600109

And those one-time "fiscally-conservative" Republicans approved that budget giving us a new 1.5 Trillion dollar budget deficit.

1.5 Trillion dollars is $1,500,000,000,000.00. That works out to a new debt burden of about $4,250.00 for every man, woman, & child in the U.S. from the “conservative” party that preaches “fiscal-responsibility.”

I’m sure the ulta-wealthy will be very grateful to the best political party that money can buy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 23, 2017 - 09:04am PT
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/23/donald-trump-sexual-harassment-accusers-harvey-weinstein

Three of them spoke with the Guardian after the allegations against Weinstein – who denies the claims against him – came to light, to revisit their accusations against Trump.

Although they are glad women have spoken up against the Hollywood producer and feel the culture may finally change, they are worried the relative silence of men will continue to allow abusers to rise to power.

They are Cathy Heller, who told the Guardian last year that in the late 1990s Trump forcibly kissed her on the lips the first time they had ever met; Kari Wells, a former model and Bravo Actress, who said Trump aggressively propositioned her in 1992 while he was dating her friend; and Jessica Leeds, who said Trump assaulted her on a plane in the early 1980s when he allegedly groped her breasts and tried to put his hand up her skirt.

The allegations against Harvey Weinstein have brought the issue of sexual harassment to the fore. Photograph: Valery Hache/AFP/Getty Images

They were just some of the women who spoke out about Trump’s behavior – women who, in many cases, were young and vulnerable and eager for an opening in industries such as modelling or TV in which the Miss Universe owner and Apprentice star had sway.

There was his former business partner in the beauty pageant industry, Jill Harth, who told the Guardian in an interview last summer that Trump groped her breasts and grabbed her crotch in one of the children’s rooms at his Florida home Mar-a-Lago in 1993.

“My pain is everyday with bastard Trump as President. “No one gets it unless it happens to them. NO one!” Harth tweeted after the Weinstein allegations came to light.

Then there was Kristin Anderson, who claimed last fall that Trump touched her vagina through her underwear at a Manhattan nightclub in the early 1990s.

And Mindy McGillivray, who said Trump groped her in 2003 when she was 23, also allegedly at Mar-a-Lago.

And Rachel Crooks, who said Trump kissed her forcibly on the mouth in 2005.

Temple Taggart McDowell, a former Miss USA beauty pageant contestant, also alleged that Trump kissed her without permission, as did Jessica Drake, along with other claims. Natasha Stoynoff accused Trump of “forcing his tongue down my throat” in 2005.

A former contestant on The Apprentice, Summer Zervos – who also said Trump kissed and groped her without consent – has filed a defamation claim against the now-president. Through her lawyer Gloria Allred, she declined to be interviewed for this story.

"Kristin Anderson, who claimed last fall that that Trump touched her vagina through her underwear"

If these women take action now, they would be facing death threats and smearing from crazy sick Trump supporters
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 23, 2017 - 09:08am PT
So, whaddy'all think? Powell, Taylor, Warsh, or more Janet?
It's actually important.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 23, 2017 - 09:10am PT
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2017 - 11:32am PT
Fed Chair is a separate discussion, but before going there...

Reilly, imagine if you had a wife or a daughter or mother who came home with the same stories that are in the news? Would you be so callous?

You just implicitly said (but couched with plausible deniability) that what women are experiencing is not important, certainly not on par with who runs the Federal Reserve Bank. I think they are both pretty important, and they are sufficiently different dimensions that making a judgment of relative importance is difficult at best. I suspect you were just going for the typical crusty jaded humor, and didn't think about the message you put into the world.

I did not grow up seeing women subordinate themselves to men or tolerate abuse. I was raised by a single working mom, and I saw her leave jobs or end business partnerships rather than put up with male power bullshit on a variety of occasions. That sh!t had financial consequences for my childhood. I am privy on a daily basis to the politics my wife faces at work that make her job much more difficult than it would be for a man in the same position. That very directly affects me too. Some things that a guy can get away with when exercising power are totally off the table for women. Clear double-standards and different sets of tools allowed for playing the game. In that way, I am sympathetic to what Hillary Clinton went through in the campaign process.

The issue of abusing power for unwelcome sexual acts or violating personal space is the extreme case of this whole dynamic. When you dismiss the individual acts and allegations in the news, you are dismissing the entire unresolved dynamic that they symbolize. It is the issue of how to balance power between the male and female halves of our population in every layer from the household to the work environment to our politics and society. I suspect it is getting more newsplay now as a societal recovery from the shock of electing a leader who is so blatantly disrespectful to women.

That said, I suspect all the people who voted for him anyways are not female-bashing pigs. Rather, it is a combination of carelessness and willful ignorance to avoid situations that would invoke compassion or empathy. This is exactly what you are doing here Reilly.

I imagine if you, and other guys who take this issue lightly, could be engaged one on one to have conversations with your wives, your daughters, your mothers, without the filters that women around such men typically employ to hide their suffering... if such conversations could take place the men really took the time to consider the people they love enduring what women throughout time have endured... most of these people would melt at the though of their loved ones being hurt and they would not tolerate abuses by others. But as long as it is kept at arm's length, someone "out there somewhere else" that is enduring the injustice, then we can turn a blind eye, crack jokes, insulate ourselves from the pain and injustice.

This blind eye is what lets evil spread. Fvck that. This is not a party issue. Be a man and take a stand.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 23, 2017 - 11:59am PT
Thanks NutUpAgain(supposed to be a funny joke concerning your last sentence), first thing I read today that made me smile. It is because I agree and also because I dig your style and appreciate your succinct, simple yet powerful way of writing about sh#t that matters.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
Rather than edit/water down my post, I'll add this. Sorry Reilly, I think I was overly harsh in singling you out, when it seems like a pretty minor offense or quibbling of word choice. Your response is probably more common than not. It's my lack of consideration in adopting a public shaming style rather than seeking to spread enlightenment. Guess I have to enlighten myself first.

I think there is a pernicious impediment to finding a more just balance of power between men and women because there are so many innocuous little ways that women can be undermined in our society, ways in which the offenders don't appear offensive or if so, just to a minor nuisance of a degree, but the collective consequences of these small behaviors make our society much less than what it could be.

So I guess I'll leave it with this: we all should consider the consequences that our actions have on others, and don't lightly dismiss the suffering of others.

Edit: Thanks Cragar... I did get a stick up by butt on this and spoke from my heart, but reeled it back a bit because Reilly by virtue of a few words doesn't deserve to be the fall guy for what is an omnipresent problem in our society.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 23, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
As long as you watch CNN or any of "the popular news" you'll be caught in a never ending cycle of wedge non-issues that distract from the real crimes of our empire.

By design.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 23, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
nutagain, you seem pretty smart on some fronts but you sure like to read a lot into simple
declarative sentences which, if not actually putting words into others' mouths, does call into
question your reading comprehension, if not your intelligence and integrity. I suggest you
re-read this thread's title, paying particular attention to "issues". You may take the liberty of
pointing out to me the StuporTopo thread rules which I have violated by daring to engage
in reasoned unemotional discourse.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
Reilly, I'm guilty of only seeing one possible meaning in what you wrote, when a variety of meanings or contexts could reasonably be inferred. I reacted to my narrow interpretation as if it was what you intended, even if it may not have occurred to you when you wrote it.

When you wrote "actually", you could have been simply supporting the importance of the point you raised. Or you could have implicitly been indicating something else was not important- and that could have been from any number of prior posts, not just the one I was assuming.

Sorry again for that.


As for Fed Reserve leadership... seems like a rough ship to steer at this point. I'm not familiar with the candidates but I would like to hear what they think about these issues or ideas:
 what do you think about systemic risks in terms of: the size of our financial institutions; separation of entities with different risk/reward portfolios (e.g. savings/loans vs speculative investments)
 how active should the voice of the Fed be in influencing the law-making process in Congress? Should the Fed be strictly seen as a "factual" consultant or should it rightly be a thought-leader to guide congressional lawmaking?
 more quantitative easing? is there evidence to show that small businesses and consumers benefited from these policies as much as banks did?
 a slippery slope was begun with quantitative easing, in that value judgements about which industries to prop up must be made, where to put the influx of cash. Given that slope is already begun, is it appropriate to slide further into shaping societal behavior and values? What about attaching incentives or obstacles for different types of interest rates to motivate financial institutions to act in a manner that encourages a more equitable wealth distribution in our society?
 what role should the Fed have in defining new metrics to measure the effectiveness of monetary policy? A simple measure of inflation or GDP or exchange rate of the dollar is too aggregated to show the real picture of what is happening in our country. What about measures of dispersion/distribution of currency as a measure of success?
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
what role should the Fed have

Those aszholes should be thrown in jail.

They are the biggest criminals in the USA and the world .....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 23, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
Ready. Fire. Aim'

The Donald's motto.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 23, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
Donald's motto...Ready , aim , grab...
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 23, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
The Fed’s money comes from taxpayers. Debtors. Slaves. Us

We are paying interest to the Fed on the Feds’ own reserves.

These reserves are maintained for their own private profit to invest in the MIC, etc.

This in essence drains the public purse.

It's an age old scheme. Stranglehold on the common people.

Who owns the Federal Reserve, who actually controls it, whose interests is it serving?

Poor NutAgain waxes poetic about this s**t like it's gospel. Wake TFUP man

At least yur not a rottonJoany obsessed with Trumpito.

Those are the azzclowns stealing candy from the neighborhood kids next week.

Sighhhh ;-0
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 23, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
you stupid fools who post your poor fund of information political crap on a climbing forum...
-should self deactivate...get a life...I get so mad at you all...get mad at what I don't understand



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 23, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
Nutagain...Skippy just paid you a compliment...I think he likes you...? rj
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 23, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
drF!

Congrats on another post that doesn't make sense to anyone with an IQ over 80!

Re your inane (insane) thoughts on the Federal Reserve, I suspect your schooling at the Koch brothers College of Paranoid Economics affects your thinking?

I am also offended that you are now stealing my signature,
Sigh

drF posts:
Sighhhh ;-0

Hey!

Let's have a drF pissing match & kill this thread, and your current Troll manifestation.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 23, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Yellen is the obvious choice, for economic stability.

However, stability is the last thing that this President appears to want, in contrast to most. He is committed to tearing down the pillars of our gov't, of which the Fed is one.

So look to Yellen being out, and someone with radical ideas to be given the nod. In fact, probably not a professional economist, probably a politician or billionaire.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 23, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
ken M!

I agre with your conclusion, but I must add the reason why.

Ken M writes:
So look to Yellen being out, and someone with radical ideas to be given the nod. In fact, probably not a professional economist, probably a politician or billionaire

But the real reason is, Janet Yellen would not debase herself, when Trump said: "You need to have sex with me, if you want to save your job."
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 23, 2017 - 10:03pm PT
^Sketchy conclusion there. T. hasn't hadn't had sex since he got that bone spur.

"Some implications and consequences of the expansion of the universe are examined
dirtbag

climber
Oct 24, 2017 - 07:49am PT

Oct 23, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
Yeah, don't be singing SkipT-The Lou My Darling !


It’s radical. Skip was a better writer.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 24, 2017 - 11:34am PT
The asterisk that accompanies the gains in the stock market: A third of the shares are owned by foreigners
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 24, 2017 - 11:35am PT
WaPost:

Farmers voted heavily for Trump. But his trade policies are terrible for them.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Oct 24, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
Farmers voted heavily for Trump. But his trade policies are terrible for them.

are those mom and pop farmers, or big agrifarmers?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 24, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
A lot of people do not vote for what is in their best interest financially. That’s why culture wars are always a popular menu item. Last year, it was culture wars again with an extra side of grievance politics. And this year, it’s flag wars.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 24, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
Yep—that too.

And don’t get me started about California ballot propositions. That system is beyond horrible.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 24, 2017 - 03:30pm PT
Locker,

Yup, I don't see anything to complain about.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 24, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
American special forces ambushed in Niger...4 Americans killed...Took 2 hours for French air support to arrive... Trump sent American special forces into harms way without American re-enforcements and no air support...Sounds like another Benghazi...Where are the right wingers that were so worked up over Benghazi...Crickets...
dirtbag

climber
Oct 24, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
Good news, Johnny, they’re getting busy investigating Clinton again.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 24, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 24, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 24, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
Makes perfect sense...Melania has been faking it for a long time now...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 25, 2017 - 10:44am PT
So now our pensions go on the chopping block, to fund billionaires.....


GOP tax leaders threaten to break Trump’s promise not to change 401(k) rules

Days after President Trump vowed that his tax plan would leave retirement accounts alone, House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Kevin Brady suggested a bill could force changes to the plans. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch also said he would oppose Trump’s pledge.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2017 - 11:45am PT
And banks can abuse consumers with impunity...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/big-banks-score-win-with-scrapping-of-consumer-dispute-rule/2017/10/25/1c15fc2a-b9a0-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html

The whole point of class action lawsuits is to get many people together to stop banks from robbing millions of consumers with $20 here and $30 there. The amounts are low enough that ordinary consumers are angry but not willing to spend more time and effort to go through arbitration with the bank. But with the profit motive for trial lawyers and enough angry people to sign a simple form, then consumers have a real voice against banks. This is collective bargaining. It is the main way for consumers to exercise power against their banks.

It is now gone. Wells Fargo recently sent me a credit card "upgrade" offering a rewards program benefit I didn't care about, but buried in the fine print was an arbitration clause to prevent me from joining class action lawsuits. Continued use of the card constituted acceptance of the agreement, and they did offer an opt-out mechanism which I did exercise.

Now, banks can force the arbitration on consumers, which effectively stops the class action lawsuits they hate and consumers have no recourse short of stopping doing business with the bank. But your debt to your old bank can still increase if you don't pay what they say you owe when you are trying to leave.

#DrainTheSwamp

#MAGA

#CrookedHillary
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 25, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
According to pence jesus was a banker. I mean really, he musta had banker hands to withstand hanging from spikes and all.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 25, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
.... but buried in the fine print was an arbitration clause to prevent me from joining class action lawsuits.....

Don't you just love those "offers" from the friendly bankers? I've only got 2 current credit cards and am constantly receiving "offers" with similar obtuse contract language such that I simply shred them.

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 25, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
Honey Boo Boo votes Republcian
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 25, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
Trump and his White House Staff didn't say anything about the Niger incident for 2 weeks knowing it would blow up in their faces...Trump abandoned American servicemen in time of need...Come on all you Benghazi parrots...Where's your moral outrage..?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Oct 25, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
Cognitive Dissonance
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
And in other news... more folks will lose access to news:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/10/25/the-fcc-plans-to-roll-back-some-of-its-biggest-rules-against-media-consolidation

I'll take bets now on how long before FCC makes it legal for ISP monopolies to alter search results. They can already selectively slow down access to sites that conflict with their financial interest. It's only a matter of time before that financial interest is linked to political outcomes more explicitly in regulating what we can find on the Internet.

Berlusconi, the child-prostitute-bedding bunga-bunga-party tax-evading hooker-to-politician-supporting criminal former Prime Minister of Italy stayed in power for so long because he owned all the news media outlets, enabling him to restrict the release of facts and alter people's perceptions.

At least we have a historical reference to know what lies ahead for us.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 25, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
??????
dirtbag

climber
Oct 25, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
I rarely engage with them much with anymore. Not worth it.
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 25, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
#alertthedaycarestaff

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 26, 2017 - 03:16am PT
I've got $50 that says Trump & co sees prison way before the Clintons.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 26, 2017 - 04:25am PT


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 26, 2017 - 06:40am PT
I hope the Vince foster case is re-opened and Whitewater also.. Maybe the Lewnski case while their at it...?
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 06:58am PT
Trump declares opioid emergency but won't increase the budget to fight it.

Seems pointless, but that's how they roll.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 26, 2017 - 06:58am PT
Ship arriving too late to save a drowning witch...
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 26, 2017 - 07:16am PT
The Clinton's absolutely suck, so did Bush Cheney- ok, there...

Trump and his supporters are in a very special "head completely up your a*#" category. You can't obfuscate or run from this- your head is in your a*# and you're very easy to identify.
Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Oct 26, 2017 - 07:27am PT
Cosmic ragman copies from 4chan.

That’s some BS there bud. You might as well ask a cracked out homeless bum than go to 4chan for information.


Weak.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 26, 2017 - 07:35am PT
Hillary is for open borders

prove it
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2017 - 07:38am PT
Cosmic, from limited experience I perceived you to be an easy-going and mellow person to interact with in real life, a conscientious climbing partner, and I remember that you read a lot. I'm guessing you have enough free time to consolidate your thoughts on policy issues and articulate what you care about.

What are your national policy interests beyond triggering "liberals"? Do you have unmet expectations of your government that you have given up on voicing? I would very much value seeing this perspective.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 26, 2017 - 08:29am PT
This Movie explains what happened to cosmic

The Brainwashing of My Dad

By iowagirl

Thursday Oct 26, 2017 · 6:34 AM PDT
Jen Senko Thebrainwashingofmydad.com

This is not only a must-see documentary, it is an engaging, tender personal story, told by a daughter, Jen Senko, who lost her dad to the right-wing media. It is a fascinating yet sad and all too common tale about the observable personality changes that took hold over her father after he accidentally happened upon right-wing radio and became addicted to it. Once a happy, non-judgmental, easy-going guy, he became an angry, embittered person that no one in his family recognized after he started spending more and more time listening to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.

The movie weaves together the daughter’s personal narrative with the history of the growth of right wing media in the United States. Going back to Nixon and beyond, the film did a thorough job of tracing the forces within the Republican party that used the Supreme Court and political manipulation to establish their own media in order to influence elections in their favor, as a reaction to the liberalism of the 60’s.

The film covers the Powell Memo of 1971, that laid the groundwork for conservatives to undermine institutions they saw as against the “free enterprise” system such as college campuses and the news media. It mentions the demise of The Fairness Doctrine under Reagan that gave rise to right wing radio, The Telecommunications Act of 1996 that was signed into law by President Clinton and resulted in more media monopolization; and the right’s newly acquired ability to use biased language to purposefully keep people in a constant state of fear and anger in order to make them easier to manipulate. Frank Luntz, Roger Ailes, and Lee Atwater all make appearances as they were important figures because they understood how biased and inflammatory language works on the brain.

An expert explains that brainwashing does not have to involve force, that you can sort of slide into it. There are 5 factors that are involved – isolation, control, uncertainty, repetition, strong emotions. Right wing media creates uncertainty, fear and anger. And most people listen to right wing radio when they are alone – in their car, their garage, their house.

The film outlines recognizable tactics: 1 – lie and skew; 2 – create confusion and doubt; 3 – blame and divide; 4 – brand and label; 5 – language and framing; 6 – fear mongering and use of emotion; 7 – bullying and shaming; 8 – in your face! (it’s everywhere); 9 – non-verbal manipulation. It is very interesting to hear how how Frank Luntz coached Hannity to point and gesture for strongest effect and how O’Reilly feigns anger and rage.

And yet the movie leaves you feeling strangely hopeful about the unasked question: Is it possible for someone to be de-programmed? Happily, the answer is yes.

One thing we have all experienced and as George Lakoff has written about, arguing with someone who is addicted to right wing media just creates fights and makes them dig in even deeper. But if you too have a loved one or loved ones who have fallen victim to it, there is something you can do and this is it: Interrupt their exposure to it in whatever creative ways you can, as much as you can, and find ways to expose the person to other kinds of input and activities.


Many Christian Churches have become right wing brainwashing sources, because we all know Jesus was big on lying, dividing, fear mongering, shaming and bullying.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 26, 2017 - 08:41am PT
jgill
Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Oct 12, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
HRC on May 16, 2013, to the Brazilian bank Banco Itau:

"My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere."

It's debatable what she really means.

Yes, it is debatable.
She was at a Green Energy Forum talking about having Green Energy crossing borders.
Nothing was uttered about having open borders for humans.

Yet! The right wingers took this out of context, weaponized it as a talking point LIE, and now we have what were once reputable people (not reputable anymore, unfortunately) parroting the weaponized form as fact to use against Hillary.

There is billion dollar industry of fabricating right wing lies to feed the right wing public with misinformation, people that listen to it are the most Misinformed people in America, but they don't care one bit, as long as they can shift the blame and hate the other side because of the lies they heard, they have no need to learn the truth.

The divide has deepened to near civil war proportions because of one thing, right wing media lying about liberals and Dems.

Do these people apologize for the lie that they repeated after finding out that is was a LIE?
Let's find out!
jogill

climber
Colorado
Oct 26, 2017 - 10:45am PT
It's easy to be diverted away from sinister developments affecting one personally to national scandalous behavior. My wife played cards with a group of several women at one of their homes yesterday. They were sitting around a table with their cards in hand chatting about spas and discussed briefly one in northern New Mexico. Then one of the women received a call on her smartphone and it was an advertisement for that spa.

True story.


Edit: yep
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2017 - 11:09am PT
John Gill - mitigation strategies:
1. Smartphones: disable microphone access for every app you can. Tough ones might be google hangouts and facebook messenger if you use those for audio/video calls

2. Don't buy a smartTV with a microphone and camera, or set what you can to disable it:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-keep-your-smart-tv-from-spying-on-you/
(and tape over the camera and mic if you can)

3. Don't buy voice-activated products like Amazon Alexa or Echo, or Google Assistant or Home



There is quickly coming a time where eavesdropping technology is omnipresent. The only way to avoid it will be to surrender connection to the modern world.


My laptop:
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 26, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
It's easy to be diverted away from sinister developments affecting one personally to national scandalous behavior.

My wife played cards with a group of several women at one of their homes yesterday. They were sitting around a table with their cards in hand chatting about spas and discussed briefly one in northern New Mexico. Then one of the women received a call on her smartphone and it was an advertisement for that spa.

True story.


It's sad to see the ravages of age on the brain. IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH, a bold statement is made, then supported with a story that has NOTHING to do with the statement!

Is it inattention? Is it dementia? Is it the beginnings of "concrete thinking?"
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 26, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
^Opere citato ?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 26, 2017 - 05:17pm PT

It's sad to see the ravages of age on the brain. IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH, a bold statement is made, then supported with a story that has NOTHING to do with the statement!

Is it inattention? Is it dementia? Is it the beginnings of "concrete thinking?"

It is truly sad to see somebody lacking class.

Ken M .... I pronounce you a certified dick.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
I thought jogill's paragraph was quite coherent. We have a context of discussing national scandals, and in that context he makes a comparison to insidious developments that are not getting as much attention. He develops the theme with a story about one such insidious development. Ken M, I don't see what you are seeing here.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 26, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
Sadder yet to see a medical doctor addicted to pain medication,

you lie, prove it honey boo boo
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 26, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
life in America is just really hard for an old white bigot, isn't it?

zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 26, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
It's easy to be diverted away from sinister developments affecting one personally to national scandalous behavior.

Well the only thing I would quibble with is that the nationally scan_dolores behavior affects us all personally, every day.

I want my 401_K, I want my 401-K.


Get rid of Trump's, Romney's, the Cocks, that guy up in Nevada, Mercer (the list goes on) outrageous tax exemptions first.

Money for nothing = muutherfawkinsonsosofbitches.



Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 26, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
I do not believe that the call from the spa was because the Iphones or whatever smart devices were on at the time, heard what the women were saying and created an ad for them instantaneously.

Is there any shred of proof that this spa company did this?
I would like to see it.
I would easily point to the fact that the women was probably already on the spa's list to call because of prior interest in spas, so they called at that time.
Occam's Razor is hard to disprove.

So I'm with Ken. you can't just post crazy talk without be called on it.

so when right wingers on ST turn this in to a name calling, smearing, bullying, and dividing campaign, I will have to shift the claim of being a dick to those folks that promote such talk
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 26, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
So I'm with Ken. you can't just post crazy talk without be called on it.

HUH?
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
Ken and Craig post crazy talk almost all their posts.

They're both brainwashed by the criminal corporate media wackjobs tools .....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
DMT, add an ASR module (automatic speech recognition that turns audio to a text stream that can be programmatically manipulated) onto the existing tracker/ad platform, and it is not at all far-fetched.

All my voicemails go through an ASR with pretty decent accuracy except for unusual names. So the technology is there. Probably the main obstacle right now is a company worried about branding and customer privacy backlash. They have to figure out how to ease into the market in ways that customers appreciate without alienating them.

Somewhere along the way, our government will catch up and develop a legal framework, probably after some scandals and customer outrage, some watershed moment of an embarrassing privacy breach.

So it's a marketing problem- not a technology problem- from a company standpoint. And it's a societal/government policy issue that probably won't be appreciated until it goes unregulated to disastrous result.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 26, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
crankster.... It's some type of secret code... FBI is still trying to decipher crankloon and then the guy comes up with whackjobs tools... We think he's connected to the Putinator and the thrown election...He manages to stay one step ahead of us...Hes smarter than he sounds..
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Oct 26, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
In the center of the universe stOOpid gross materialist...only pupits of the insane press are idiot enough to go to the center of the earth.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
It was a text message on my wife's friend's smartphone. Apparently someone was listening in, even though there wasn't an open link the woman was aware of, and sent the message as a prank. Still a tad unsettling.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
Oh, for a minute there i thought Ken M was a fentanyl junky...My bad...
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
NWO2 has very poor reading comprehension.
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
Hum, maybe Cosmic also thinks Ken was talking about being addicted, rather than his use in his practice.

Care to clarify Cosmic?
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Apparently my reading comprehension was just fine then , as I was talking about what NWO posted, and you criticised it without clarification.

Do you see the obvious problem there, Cosmic?
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:53pm PT
Oh, ok. Whatever, Cosmic.
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
What ever happened to that rich benefactor you asked for to pay for your back surgery, then thanked God for providing? Than you claimed you never asked for help.

Then you tried to shame someone else for asking for help.

Cosmic: Any RICH Benefactors out there?

Then someone comes thru with the offer:

Cosmic: Thank you LORD, and someone else for making this possible!
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 26, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
Good, then don't shame others for asking for help when you did the very same thing.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2017 - 11:15am PT
Kids, if you don't get along back there I'm gonna pull the car over.
Everybody keep your hands and arms and feet on your own sides.
I know you're hungry and tired and cranky,
but we're stopping for dinner and bathroom break soon.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 27, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
Of course they were...anyone that believes tRump didn't cut a deal with Putin to become president is in denial.

#impeachtraitortRump

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/talking-points-brought-to-trump-tower-meeting-were-shared-with-kremlin/ar-AAu8wY0
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 27, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
Grand jury approves first charges in Mueller investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/27/politics/first-charges-mueller-investigation/index.html
dirtbag

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
My money is on Manafort.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 27, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
agreed, Dirt

and don't forget either one of Trump's sons and Kushner

and if Manafart, Trump's sons and son in law colluded then Don his own self knew about it

I want the pee pee tape of Trump in the Russian hotel room to go public, Mueller has it

look for Manafort to be arrested and in custody by Monday
monolith

climber
state of being
Oct 27, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
They may start the charges with lower level people, then make some deals to move up the food chain.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 27, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
Diversion. Good luck with that.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 27, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
Manyfarts was paid 17.1 million by a Russian political group in the Ukrain...Manyfarts tried to hide the 17.1 million from the IRS... Sounds like Manyfarts is in big trouble...
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
Remember when vinyl records were in vogue

and

sometimes the needle (stylus) would get stuck in the groove?





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 27, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
Stupid people post stupid conspiracy theories that have been debunked years ago.

They cling to scraps and lies to make themselves feel smart

It's a shame that we have to read their pathetic lies that the right wing media propaganda networks produced for them

When you already heard the facts and then someone posts known lies and conspiracies that are the complete opposite to the facts, it makes them look like stooges for the fascist agenda

if they could only focus that hate on evil, they would jump ship and get on board to fight it.

If they could only realize that the right wing media lies about everything, they would have a chance, but as long as they parrot the right wing lies they are doomed to scorn and ridicule

The right wing media takes advantage of these easily duped folks, they are their base
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 27, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
he is doing the best he can with what the lord gave him to work with

consider his lifestyle
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 08:42pm PT



SAN DIEGO – A Mexican business man was sentenced to three years in prison Friday for making illegal contributions to the 2012 mayoral campaigns of former Mayor Bob Filner and former District Attorney Bonnie Dumanis.
WBraun

climber
Oct 28, 2017 - 07:34am PT
You brainwashed st00pid politards should be thrown in jail.

It's you st00pid politard clowns that believe all the horsesh!t you are fed daily by your clueless corporate media tools.

Brainwashed clueless idiots who've destroyed your own country ....
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 28, 2017 - 07:40am PT
Trump is doing the best he can with what the lord gave him to work with

consider his lifestyle
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 28, 2017 - 08:30am PT
frostback...mental masturbation is sometimes confused with locker room talk... how long before the women come forward wth groping and forced kissing accusations...?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 28, 2017 - 08:46am PT
alternatively, while it may look like trolling, Trump knows only how to personally attack, call people childish names, pretending he is above it all, better than you

psychiatrists are now ethically freed to comment, saying it is his deep ignorance and low self esteem that drives his taking every opportunity to attack and demean others

most everyone knows he is an ass and has to tolerate it, others have had enough

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 28, 2017 - 08:50am PT
Just like stupid redneck hillbillies, the people that know the least think they know everything.
Their authoritarian mind convinces them that they are the only ones that are right about everything, so hence everyone else is sToopid..

the pathetic part is them being able to type on a computer (or tweet) so we have to see what a moron they are on the inside.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 28, 2017 - 09:03am PT
It's called " small hand syndrome " sometimes " called hand-size envy " where other peoples' hands look bigger than the sufferer's... Grabbing and groping of the opposite sex can be one of the symptoms...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 28, 2017 - 09:08am PT
Their authoritarian mind convinces them that they are the only ones that are right.

Sounds like yer describing the French or the Bolshevik Revolution, or the Eurozone bureaucrats.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 28, 2017 - 09:25am PT
What I am describing has nothing to do with the French or the Bolshevik Revolution, or the Eurozone bureaucrats.
WBraun

climber
Oct 28, 2017 - 09:45am PT
Craig Fry -- "... the people that know the least think they are know everything."

LOL Craig ... you are describing yourself again as usual.

Go reread it. The word "are" should be stricken from that sentence to make sense. :-)

(think they are know)
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 28, 2017 - 09:54am PT
So Cosmic has to hit back with a libelous fake photo manipulation insinuating that I am involved in bestiality.

Can anyone be more disgusting?
He can't debate the subject matter so he retreats to ugly insults that can only be interpreted as him being one sick minded individual that needs help to extract him from the deep pit of evil he has fallen into.

It's always something suggesting sexual deviance, which is typical of the lowest level of insult.

I know he is sick and suffering, but I wish he could get help rather than show his ugly Fake-Christian sexually deviant nature on ST.



fixed it for ya duck
not describing myself, I am the complete opposite of a stupid redneck hillbilly
I'm am the hated highly educated well read elite
c wilmot

climber
Oct 28, 2017 - 10:14am PT
the people that know the least think they know everything.

Followed by..

I'm am the hated highly educated well read elite know it all
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 28, 2017 - 10:53am PT
every single sentence he posts or tweets personally attacks others

he has been warned by his staff, acts like he wants to be removed...dumb
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Oct 28, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
Twitter Insiders are tweeting that next week is going to be yuuuge.

First Russian Collusion indictment is purported to be being made public on Monday.


The first domino is about to be tipped.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Oct 28, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
CFry says
I'm am the hated highly educated well read elite

Hated YES! Educated..Elite? You are a joke and more leech than human. Peee-Uuuu U stink brah. You are the enemy of the human race

Twitter Insiders are tweeting that next week is going to be yuuuge

Twitter Insiders?? Do you realize how lame that sounds. What a desperate and looserish stance. Reality based on Tw#tter. You have no clue what's goin on. Try multi-meter 100A for starters

You looserz on this post will continue to be captured by lies and deceit. It's comical. Lame on...

Crankl00nish at it's rankest....u dummies lol
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 28, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
And not one post about the actions taken by Congress in the middle of the night, to make it harder to sue banks for their misdeeds.

The misdirection worked.....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
I did post about this, but it was buried in the name calling and memes.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
I did post about this, but it was buried in the name calling and memes.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2960645&msg=3023507#msg3023507
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Oct 28, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Oct 28, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
Now that's closure!!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 30, 2017 - 03:10am PT
I suggest we all step back and take a breath of fresh air. A mountain breeze, a salty sea spray. Like this forum is going to change anything.

Talking with my late brother's wife, my sister-in-law, Kathleen, who I love like a sister, she is a die-hard Trumpite.

Her elder son (my godson) did two tours with the Marines in Afghanistan (and under fire, true, fact). He told me that the bullets whizzing by him scared the daylights out of him. He is now a junior at UC Davis, civil engineering. Married his high school sweetheart, and two young precocious children, Millie and Bruce (Little Mac as Kathleen calls him).

Kathleen's (and my dear late brother Mac, one of the best winemakers in the world, by peer recognition) younger son is something like Recon 4 (I dunno, something like that, he has trained with SEALs, I have photos sent by Kathleen of him jumping out of a helicopter into the ocean, crazy, who in their right mind would do that, hah hah. Who in their right mind would want to free solo El Cap?), now in the Corps reserves and fighting alongside other CalFire workers. Last I heard some fire in Santa Cruz or something.

I do my best to avoid talking politics with her. Losing family and friends over politics is silly.

But we both agreed, America is so polarised, and divided. That is how the decline begins.

EDIT

And Kathleen and her sister and a friend just returned from Yellowstone, Rocky Mtn NP, Rushmore and Tetons NP. She had never been before (it's been decades for me). She marvelled at the beauty. It is beautiful isn't it. She wants to move out of California (she was born there, lived there all of her life) "It is too liberal". She likes Wyoming, she will be 64 next month. I wish her the best. She is a friend, a sister.

ANOTHER EDIT

I know, I have spouted shite on the Taco Stand in the past (I have been on since 2005). One poster (poseur?) got personal and called me an alcoholic (and still does apparently, on other media as well. I ignore people like that). Ad hominem attacks. Yeah, I drink a couple glasses of wine and then get all bolshie. But not anymore. I have made an ass of myself too often.

I hope I have learned.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:12am PT
75 million from the Ukraine ain't chump change...Manofart could be the tip of the iceberg ..So he wasn't paying taxes on that while he tried to hide it in an off shore account...? I guess that's what you do when your're colluding with the USSR...? I wonder if Trump's sphincter is beginning to tighten..?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:25am PT
All of it is fake news.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Breaking News
George Papadopoulos, 30, pleaded guilty on Oct. 5, but the case wasn’t unsealed until Monday, when two other Trump associates were indicted by a federal grand jury.

Papadopoulos reached a plea deal with prosecutors, and has since been cooperating with special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Prosecutors’ statement of the offense alleges Papadopoulos “made material false statements and material omissions” during a Jan. 27 interview with the FBI. He was arrested July 27. Prosecutors agreed to recommend between no prison time to six months under the plea agreement.


So he is talking to the FBI about all he knows about Trump Russian collusion so he doesn't have to go to jail.

That's how these things work, pick up the low lying fruit, get confessions from them about higher ups so they don't get thrown in jail, get all the possible dirt on Trump, and then indict.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:46am PT
The Dirty Tricks Team for the Republican Party
Manafort, Roger Stone, Lee Atwater from the 70s
May they rest is Hell.
It's easy to make millions when you sell your soul to the devil,
to bad our Government doesn't prosecute evil.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:49am PT
Teetle dum says there's no collusion...Given Teetle's track record on speaking the truth this could be a self-indictment...If i were Tweetle i'd throw out a few " Jail Hillary " tweets to prolong the inevitable and keep his loyal base frothing...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:57am PT
Talk about nothing burgers!!!

MSNBC Host Skewers Claims Clinton Helped Sell Uranium To Russians

All it took were a few “fact-based questions.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/joy-reid-clinton-uranium-one-trump_us_59f672f9e4b03cd20b827261?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Clinton had no direct involvement in the approval, and that the foundation donor had sold his shares in the company prior to giving money to the Clinton organization.

″So what you’re talking about is a deal that nine members of CFIUS approved unanimously,” Reid said on the show. “None of them was Hillary Clinton. You have a donor who separately gave Hillary Clinton donations at a time when she was not secretary of state. The two things cross in the night, they have no relation to each other.”

Hillary did not have approval authority on the sale of uranium, the donation to her foundation was before the deal was made by someone that was not even part of the Canadian company buying the uranium.

Yet, that's all these Faux News dupes can talk about!
It's called deflection propaganda, right out of the Russian playbook.
It's a shame that Trump is the same as Putin now, both pathological liars that say nothing that can be trusted.

They both share the same trait, Authoritarian Fascists.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:20am PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:38am PT
Tapped out - Don't everybody go jumping to conclusions.

SEALS get a lot of attention in San Diego


2 Navy SEALs Under Suspicion in Strangling of Green Beret in Mali

No one has been charged in Sergeant Melgar’s death, which a military medical examiner ruled to be “a homicide by asphyxiation,” or strangulation, said three military officials briefed on the autopsy results. The two Navy SEALs, who have not been identified, were flown out of Mali shortly after the episode and were placed on administrative leave.

...

Much is unknown about what happened around 5 a.m. on June 4 in the team house. The initial reports to Sergeant Melgar’s superiors in Germany said he had been injured while wrestling or grappling with the two Navy commandos, according to three officials who have been briefed on the investigation.

Nuglet

Trad climber
Orange Murica!
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:39am PT
who's next?!

i'm betting on Donald JR

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:46am PT
Teetle dum says there's no collusion

Tweedum said to Tweedledee, your presence is obnoxious to me

Bob Dylan
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:49am PT
I'm betting on Flynn
He was working for the Russians and Turkey while in the White House.

Can you just image how many State secrets he transferred to the Russian's while he was the Head of National Security?
They were all using private e-mail services so they wouldn't be accountable according to investigators.

Lock him up.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:55am PT
They have Flynn dead to rights, only reason they have not indicted is because he is squealing like a stuck pig.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 10:28am PT
You gotta give it to the Russians: they sure did a masterful job handing us our asses.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 30, 2017 - 11:23am PT
Covefe?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 30, 2017 - 11:28am PT
maybe not proving Trump directly coordinated with Russia but very likely he knew what his staff were doing

more importantly, Mueller has Trump on Obstruction of Justice with the Comey firing
given what he said about the pressure being off him now that Comey was gone

stinky....
dirtbag

climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 11:37am PT
...If Trump allows Mueller to get that far.

I’d say 50% chance (maybe higher) he gets canned.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Where is the justice for these women and countless women like them who have been taken advantage of by men in positions of power?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/10/27/trump-says-sex-harassment-claims-are-fake-news-but-there-are-collaborators/

The fall of Harvey Weinstein, and executives at various organizations, and the changing climate of women telling their stories publicly, is a societal response to the indignity of Trump and what his person in the office of President of the United States of America says about our society.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 30, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
Dirtbag, yes very doubtful a Repub House and Senate would move to impeachment

yes it happened with Nixon bi partisan but stuff like ethics and moral behavior was more valued back then
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Oct 30, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
the 25th Amendment allows for a President's removal from office

on the grounds of the President being considered "unfit" for the office

interestingly, the President's own hand picked Cabinet would have to be the ones to vote that he be removed and then the action goes over to the congress

how likely is it that Trump's cabinet, think Ben Carson, would be to do that?

considering how they rise to applaud him, pledge their allegiance, and kiss his rings
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
I get the feeling that more than one member of the GOP Congress has told tRump that if he cans Mueller there will be hell to pay.

Das fuhrer tRump is probably getting desperate enough to consider it though. People are going to start cutting deals to save their asses, and no one is going down for tRump. Better find a good bunker to hide in.

Edit

I hope everyone that is guilty, regardless of which party they are in, get what they richly deserve.

tRump just needs to be first in line, because is doing the most damage right now.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2017 - 02:29pm PT
It certainly looks like some cretin in Idaho is paying attention to Trump's dislike of Islam.

http://magicvalley.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-investigate-cross-wrapped-in-bacon-and-pig-s-feet/article_78abb1f7-08fa-5eb1-8158-91e254e6b19f.html#utm_source=magicvalley.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=6A50CBAC4E29F5A4F5B382E03D978238B2DEA444


TWIN FALLS — Police say someone draped a cross in butchered pig parts and left it at the Islamic Center of Twin Falls over the weekend. Authorities are calling it a hate crime.

About 4 feet tall, the cross was wrapped in bacon, pig’s feet and a tongue, and was left in the parking lot.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 30, 2017 - 02:34pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
Donald's last Tweet today was over seven hours ago. It was "....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!" I would find it humorous if that is the last Tweet he puts out.

Eric Trump has Tweeted today, sending birthday wishes to Ivanka. If I were a decent Characturist, my cartoon would have her pouting and walking away from Mueller with him saying something like "Hey, it's hard to choose the right gift for a woman who has everything!"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
That's some f*#ked up sh#t happie girl...rj
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 30, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/timeline-campaign-knew-russia-had-clinton-emails-months-before-trump-joke/ar-AAuf6Z5

Of course he did...
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
He not worried, because he didna do nuthin'


Right?

Fifteen minutes of ill-gotten gains. I am number one. Number two is when I sheeit my pants which I did today.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Trump and his chimpanzee supporters have made a laughing stock out of the USA... Boot bozo and go for damage control... I'm sure Nixon is getting a kick out of this...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Oct 30, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Oct 30, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
So he is talking to the FBI about all he knows about Trump Russian collusion so he doesn't have to go to jail.

Papadopoulus was probably doing more than just talikng - he was probably wearing a wire and sent out, starting back in July, to catch others doing the talking. This is going to be juicy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
They have Flynn dead to rights, only reason they have not indicted is because he is squealing like a stuck pig...

This is undoubtably the case and it’s a great strategy for keeping the rest of the rats nervous and off-balance.
WBraun

climber
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:26pm PT
You people are totally whacked as you have no clue what's going on and neither does the st00pid corporate tools from the lame stream media .....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 30, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
I thought Trump said he didn't want unattractive women working at his golf resorts...?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 30, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
RJ! Per your mention:

I thought Trump said he didn't want unattractive women working at his golf resorts...?

I suppose Sarah Huckabee Sanders, daughter of pleasant, but slightly insane for God Arkansas Gov. Huckabee, might be more pleasant if her job didn't require her to lie & bluster on a daily basis, for Trump.

Those poses do not become her.




Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 31, 2017 - 11:26am PT
From NPR:

When conservative commentator and host Rush Limbaugh opened his radio show Monday, indictments had just been made public in Washington, D.C., against President Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort. Manafort and one of his top lieutenants had been taken into custody on charges of money laundering and tax evasion. Special counsel Robert Mueller had also secured a guilty plea from former Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos, who admitted to lying to the FBI about contacts with Russia.

But Limbaugh, one of the most influential voices on the right, worked quickly to reframe the day's developments. "None of this is real," he insisted. When a listener suggested Mueller had "gone rogue" and might be trying to topple Trump, Limbaugh amplified the fear. "This is the coup. If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this."

For weeks, conservative media outlets have echoed these themes, working to discredit Mueller and recycling own Trump's tweets describing the probe as a political witch hunt. They've also worked to refocus attention onto former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Trump himself still refers to his opponent in last year's presidential election as "Crooked Hillary."

On Monday, Limbaugh and other conservative media outlets built on those themes. They downplayed the immediate impact of the Manafort indictments, insisting that they have nothing to do with Trump or his campaign. They also suggested the probe reflects an unfair attack on a populist president by Washington insiders and media liberals.

Much of Monday's conservative coverage asserted that Clinton is actually the one who colluded with Russia when she was secretary of state. Fox News star Sean Hannity told his audience that people investigating Trump are all complicit in an Obama administration decision in 2010 that allowed a Russian company to gain a financial interest in part of America's uranium reserves.

"All the people involved in this, from Rosenstein who appointed Mueller, both of them, and Eric Holder and likely President Obama himself. Hillary was up to her eyeballs as was her husband in the Uranium One deal," Hannity said, listing a who's who of Justice Department figures and Democratic Party leaders, who he claimed were ignoring a more significant Russia scandal.

Fact-checkers with The Washington Post and other outlets have looked at these narratives involving Clinton and found they don't check out. Nor do these claims have anything to do with Monday's indictments or the question of whether Trump's campaign colluded with Russia during the 2016 election. But Clinton remains a lightning rod on the right, and many conservatives believe her actions in office threatened national security.

Despite these counternarratives about Mueller and Clinton, there was still deep alarm Monday in some right-wing media. Speaking on Fox News, Byron York with the conservative Washington Examiner warned that the indictments might mark a turning point. "Could they be used to pressure Manafort to give them information about any possible wrongdoing on the Trump campaign?" York asked. "The only problem is we don't know of what such wrongdoing might be. But certainly Manafort is now under pressure."

The right-wing website Breitbart, run by former White House strategist Steve Bannon, acknowledged to readers that former Trump campaign adviser Papadopoulos pleaded guilty after lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russians and trying to purge his Facebook account. His guilty plea directly contradicts a claim made by conservative media for months that Mueller's entire probe is fake news.
http://www.npr.org/2017/10/31/561070095/none-of-this-is-real-conservative-media-reacts-to-mueller-indictments

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 1, 2017 - 06:48am PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 1, 2017 - 10:15am PT
Sam Clovis is talking. Trump planned on putting him in Agriculture to keep him quiet. Should be a good Senate confirmation hearing

Drip drip drip
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 1, 2017 - 11:01am PT
I now feel (slightly) bad for mocking Trump mouth-piece Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

The poor, grouchy-woman is an obvious victim of Bell's Palsy!

Bell's palsy is a type of facial paralysis that results in an inability to control the facial muscles on the affected side.[1] Symptoms can vary from mild to severe.[1] They may include muscle twitching, weakness, or total loss of the ability to move one or rarely both sides of the face.[1] Other symptoms include drooping of the eyelid, a change in taste, pain around the ear, and increased sensitivity to sound
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_palsy

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
I appreciate levity as a fine consolation as long as it does not plant the seeds for future problems.

Mocking her appearance dilutes the societal rejection of her role in the ongoing injuries to our nation, in a way validating what she is doing by saying it's less important than how she looks. Imagine if everyone had the courage of their convictions to say no to such a job. Maybe many people do, and that is why so many positions are unfilled in this administration. How many Judas' can there be in this world? Certainly a lot who will not say no to a dollar.

Another point on mocking her appearance: it reinforces an ancient societal weakness of judging women more by their appearance than their actions. It is only a slight variation on the theme Martin Luther King spoke about, dreaming of a world where people "will not be judged by (the color of) their skin, but by the content of their character."

Maybe this last argument is weak in this case, because men and women seem to be equally lambasted on their appearance in politics. I'm over-sensitive on that topic lately because of observations in other realms. Whether it is men or women being targeted, it just dumbs us down.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 1, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
Nut...I totally agree with you...Locker's pictures of Uncle Fester and Huckabee are totally inappropriate...Guy should get banned again...rj
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 1, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
Give Locker a break, he is Locker after all. Just like Duck, gets a free pass.
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 1, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
exhibit a:

[Click to View YouTube Video]



exhibit b:

[Click to View YouTube Video]



if you agree with one of the two above, you probably think the other sounds crazy.



but are they really that different?

one uses tears. and one uses anger.

one is passive aggressive. and the other is just aggressive.



but from my perspective, even if their emotions are genuine, [and they very well maybe] they are both professional level emotional manipulators. [and before i'm called a kettle, i'm aware that i'm just as capable in this fine art - ha!]

they are manipulators because both are peddling in the fine art of dehumanizing the other.

in this case that "other" is at least anyone that disagrees with them.

and so in the face of tragedy you're either "fer em" or you're "against em".



and so in both cases neither is really taking the time to question/investigate what the root issues might be.

both of 'em just want to legislate.

they both want "others" to control "others".

because ultimately they think by controlling the tail, they'll control the dog.




and that is the root mistake with this whole conversation, imo.

there really aren't any specific policy issues [tails] worth discussing at this point in the u.s.' history.



the only issue, as of right now... is the dog.



and so that i'm somewhat transparent:

that dog is the premises that the u.s. was founded on.

those premises were always [in part] lies, just as they were always [in part] truths.

the truths [in part] led it to many legitimate and great successes.



and the lies?

they are catching up.

and the empire is both slowly and quickly slipping away, because of them.




as long as the focus is on the leader, whether obeezy, or drumpf, or the guns, or the health care, or the immigrants, or whatever new "issue" is being pushed, there will be no real long lasting solutions to the u.s.' both slowly and quickly waning intrinsic power and therefore influence in the greater world.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 2, 2017 - 07:01am PT
Thanks for giving us Trump you selfish assh0le!
Inside Hillary Clinton’s Secret Takeover of the DNC

http://flip.it/TILx5s
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 08:53am PT
Mercer has resigned and is selling Breitbart stock(to his daughter).

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Police
Police Who?
Police open the door. Mueller would like to have a word or two with you.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 2, 2017 - 11:24am PT
That Green Party has been doing some great work these days.
They helped install Pruitt in the EPA.
Climate Change is now not even a topic the Gov. cares about,
and Coal is now the fuel of the future

Good Work Greens
You must feel special
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 2, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
Worth a repost. Thanks Contractor.

Good work Dems! You shot yourself in the foot.

Inside Hillary Clinton’s Secret Takeover of the DNC

https://flipboard.com/@flipboard/-inside-hillary-clintons-secret-takeover/f-b95a46bed0%2Fpolitico.com

Debbie was not a good manager. She hadn’t been very interested in controlling the party—she let Clinton’s headquarters in Brooklyn do as it desired so she didn’t have to inform the party officers how bad the situation was.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
so I should go ahead and vote for the DNC purse-pocket controller again next time, HRC-ites? phuk that shit! I am done with DNC, the Democratic political machine. I would rather stomach a Randian approach than deal with the garbage-spewing wallstreet nutswabbers of the DNC.


As Rutger Hauer so eloquently put it in the american cinema classic Surviving the Game, "Let it burn."


I am done voting Dem. Period. That sh#t is unreal. Who the hell thought a reproductively nonviable female could win POTUS? Or that sticking with the Dem political machine was in any way reasonable in the first (no matter the consequence of loss). Goldman Nutsachs owned her anyway.


No, Donnie, these people are cowards.

Let it burn, Donnie.



And yeah CFry, letting it burn means a Pruitt EPA, means a pussygrabber in chief. Your blaming of berniebros leaves you, with your mirror, to stare at. So count us out.

"F*#k it dude, let's go bowling" And vote third Pizzle next go 'round.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 2, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
Cowboy, why the sturm und dracht? Or is it just generic bitterness?
The revolution will not be televised but Jerome Powell’s confirmation
hearings will be although that might be too warm and cuddly for you.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
Who the hell thought a reproductively nonviable female could win POTUS?

What kind of sh#t spew is that? What kind of person even THINKS that way? What is the matter with you?

edit: If you want to cancel that chalkbag purchase, just send me a note via the Etsy syste, and I will do so.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 2, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
Far left loons would rather see the whole Country burn down than upset their snowflake principles and vote for the lesser of 2 evils

I can care less what the DNC did in 2015-16.

It's just more smear attacks on Hillary to divert attention.

You want to compare notes of the DNC to the RNC?
The RNC are involved in treason or pay offs at every level.

At least the Dems know how to Govern, that's really all that matters.
The country was doing fine with Obama and the Clintons in charge

It's not a popularity contest
You have a choice of Normal bad, or Satanic bad
The choice should be easy.

you pick outside those 2 and it's a default into satanic
WBraun

climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
You politards are still completely insane ....
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Nov 2, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
Kirk and crew discover a galaxy far far away
Vader falls hard for Spock's sister
Luke winds up with pointy ears
dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
How ‘bout that new tax bill?

It will be a relief if Ivanka, Eric, and Donald jr. (who is a good boy) will not have to pay estate taxes when papa trump barks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
Let’s be excruciatingly clear - it didn’t matter if Hillary was the living embodiment of hell itself or if she had Bernie kidnapped and dismembered in her basement - it was the frigging Supreme Court majority at stake for gods sake.

Keep up this moronic mindset and you’ll personally elect yet more fascists in 2018 and 2020.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 2, 2017 - 03:12pm PT
Clinton campaign entered into secret agreement to control DNC operations from August, 2015 to August, 2016.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/02/politics/elizabeth-warren-dnc-rigged/index.html

dirtbag

climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
Who cares. Bernie joined the Democratic Party solely to run for President, then quit.

Loyalty works both ways.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 2, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
Well, as long as we elect the nice fascist it'll be OK.

The Brave Cowboy is on to something. Let it burn.

It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. -- Buenaventura Durruti
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 2, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
Sanders has always caucused with, and been an important part of, the Dems, so who gives a sh#t if he had to officially join them to run.

Secret agreement to control the DNC? Whoa!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 2, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
No comment,allowed.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
In jest, before the DNC candidate was decided*, I spoke that I might toss a Trump vote out as a cute impotent proverbial wrench in the gears. Yet when it came down to it, I drank that punch. No party is perfect Moose, but when shitheads show up pouring the punch, well, it seems like I never really wanted punch.

And no, Happie, I spoke in estimation of Amurrrica when I made that statement, not of my own politicosocial lilt.


Stale fruit is stale fruit, eventually, even subjectively. Things stink around here, anyone can tell you.

I question the veracity and utility of modern elections, and I wish that I would just speak with my coworkers on the other side of the coin. We all want the same things, really.



I guess the pint is that we should all just go

*dollar democracy
c wilmot

climber
Nov 2, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
. Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority


Nothing changed with trump. You people still don't get this
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
crankster and I voted for Hillary. heh.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 2, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
Everything has changed with trump. You people still don't get this

fixed it for ya

Now we are the laughing stock...
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
^Agree with you CFry
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 2, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
Yep!

But, manipulating the system to get HRC ahead of Bernie was no different than Trump's machinations. No moral superiority here.

I've been disillusioned with the Democratic Party long time ago. I vote Democrat only because the Republicans have an agenda that I don't like even more. The third parties are even more detached from reality.

There is no party in the world I would identify myself 100%. Compromise, or be damned.

Not voting for HRC was the ticket for Trump. The purists need to think hard how to justify their actions, given the outcome of the last presidential election.

It's not a game, people. Just watch Trump when he is cornered, and we are getting pretty close to that. Most likely he will start a war.

I am sorry so many of you couldn't see that. But, I do have an advantage as I lived through the similar authoritarian regimes in Poland. I recognized the theme right away. Do you know who was the master of propaganda?

Well said.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 2, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
And the purists should consider their selection of Timmy Kaine over Sanders as VP.

Lose with purity seems to be the Dem motto. Well done.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 2, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
I recall reading a series of stories about the Spanish Civil War in my 20's, which tended to destroy any illusions I had about the struggle of right vs. left in that horrible cataclysm.

I re-read the book in 2012 before visiting Spain & Spanish climber friends, for the first time.

The title is simply: "The Civil War in Spain." Published in 1962, it was edited by Robert Payne & is now well out of print.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6532153-the-civil-war-in-spain-1936-39.

From the book, I learned, while the communists, socialists, anarchists, Basque, & Catalans, in left-leaning Spain, fought Franco & his Nationalist Fascist forces, Hitler, & Mussolini, they often fought among themselves. While one or the other supposed allies in the leftish faction was fighting or betraying the other, Franco & his allies won the war in many ugly battles & campaigns.

There’s a lesson there, for those of us that learn history & lessons.

I’m sorry that some here don't know, or seem determined to ignore that lesson.

Trump & his allies are bringing Nationalism & Fascism back to popularity in America.

Halford E. Luccock famously said, “When and if fascism comes to America it will not be labeled ‘made in Germany’; it will not be marked with a swastika; it will not even be called fascism; it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism.’”

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Halford_E._Luccock
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 2, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
Lincoln Brigade represent!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 2, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
BC! Yeah, there was a Lincoln brigade story in the book too. They also got used & then betrayed by their friends & allies.

(The Russians always betrayed the other leftists at some point, since the outsiders never showed proper ideological purity.)
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 2, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
Monolith- True enough!

I held my nose and voted for Hillary but a took a scalding shower and scrubbed my skin raw.

She sucks, her husband sucks, the party sucks!- were better than this.

Craig, move past the Hillary wing!

Here's a peace offering...a rallying for my fellow progressives.


https://youtu.be/biehbIPqV8c
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 2, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
What a load of crap. Not the video. Your ridiculous comments about the Clinton's. You're no progressive.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 2, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Crankster? Per your post:

What a loat of Crap!

I've always read your posts & appreciated them.

Do you have a problem with my last post?

Nov 2, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
I recall reading a series of stories about the Spanish Civil War in my 20's, which tended to destroy any illusions I had about the struggle of right vs. left in that horrible cataclysm.

I re-read the book in 2012 before visiting Spain & Spanish climber friends, for the first time.

The title is simply: "The Civil War in Spain." Published in 1962, it was edited by Robert Payne & is now well out of print.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6532153-the-civil-war-in-spain-1936-39.

From the book, I learned, while the communists, socialists, anarchists, Basque, & Catalans, in left-leaning Spain, fought Franco & his Nationalist Fascist forces, Hitler, & Mussolini, they often fought among themselves. While one or the other supposed allies in the leftish faction was fighting or betraying the other, Franco & his allies won the war in many ugly battles & campaigns.

There’s a lesson there, for those of us that learn history & lessons.

I’m sorry that some here don't know, or seem determined to ignore that lesson.

Trump & his allies are bringing Nationalism & Fascism back to popularity in America.


Halford E. Luccock famously said, “When and if fascism comes to America it will not be labeled ‘made in Germany’; it will not be marked with a swastika; it will not even be called fascism; it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism.’”


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Halford_E._Luccock

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 2, 2017 - 10:03pm PT
Fritz, I wasn't referring to you or your posts, which I enjoy and respect very much.

I'll get over the past and unite around my party's nominee whomever it is. We won't survive another 4 years of Trump. Poof.

BFD. Hillary Clinton, a Democrat, saved the DNC’s ass and then wanted to micromanage it, Bernie Sanders (who was only a Democrat for the purposes of his campaign) was offered a fundraising agreement and didn’t use it....zzzzz...Donna Brazile's hawking a book...zzz..
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 12:05am PT
Sorry Crankster, I won't forget Hillary's willingness to torpedo Obama in 08. Her campaign was ruthless.

http://flip.it/b-7qWv
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 05:06am PT
Back on topic-Researchers suggest delusion may be at the heart of conservative hatred of Obamacare

http://flip.it/Mgyv.i

I've been saying this for years- it's the only explanation for such dumbshittedness.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 05:47am PT
Yeah frostback...that about sums it up.

Obama was a good president but it’s hard to argue that he didn’t leave the party in much worse shape when he left. I think a lot of this is attributable to the fact that Dems up and down seemed to run from their major accomplishment—the ACA—and let the right wing narrative about it take hold
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 3, 2017 - 06:43am PT
Contractor, politics is tough business. Obama knows that, that's why he looked past their differences during the campaign and appointed HRC his Secretary of State and campaigned for her in '16.

That's the past. A year ago we elects a sad, sick, dumbs##t at president. It's the worst of times. We need to come together and reverse course. Don't wait for someone to save us, we need to save ourselves. A "spirited" debate is in order, no?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 06:57am PT
Yes! Although I do believe secretary of state was extorted.

The question remains- as a party how do we appease the fears (many created by right wing media) of the disaffected white voter and still open our arms to people they perceive as a threat? I don't know the answer.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 3, 2017 - 07:34am PT
I don't know the answer.

I do. The answer is to start representing the people of America and not the plutocracy only. FDR did that quite successfully. But the new Democrats are hogs at the corporate trough no less than the Republicans.

“We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.”
-- FDR

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 3, 2017 - 07:53am PT
But the new Democrats are hogs at the corporate trough no less than the Republicans.
Bull sh#t
some are, most are NOT

The broad brush painting going on is purely hysterics based on nothing more than speculation
If you want to work for the people, you become a Democratic politician,
if you want money, you become a Republican
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 07:58am PT
Gary, I think as true progressives, our very existence stands in repudiation of corporate domination hence the distain for Hillary.

Because of the success of right-wing media, the working classes have been fractured as a voting block. Weak-minded Democratic leaders are, either talking out of both sides of their mouth or forced into a painful binary choice.

Bernie had the best chance of uniting the Party. He had made inroads with the white disaffected voter and minorities were slowly warming to his POLICY driven message- Get it? it's about an inclusive policy for the people.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 3, 2017 - 08:04am PT
If you can't see the difference in policies that the Dems propose compared to the Repubs I guess you are truly blind

and yes, please move away from the key broad, since you seem to not know the most basic concepts of our political system
WBraun

climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 08:10am PT
Fry dude is brainwashed to the max .....
dirtbag

climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 08:12am PT
Bernie had the best chance of uniting the Party. He had made inroads with the white disaffected voter and minorities were slowly warming to his POLICY driven message- Get it? it's about an inclusive policy for the people.


I was never on board with Bernie, although if he was the nominee I would’ve supported him without hesitation.

He blew a lot of smoke out of his ass. 4.5% (or thereabouts) growth? Reducing prison populations by a fifth? Sorry, that was utter bullsh#t.




thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 3, 2017 - 09:41am PT
the dems did not not just lost the bernie bros for that cycle

i say unity party. kasich hickenlooper
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 3, 2017 - 10:12am PT
Biden-Warren
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 11:45am PT
Yeah Crankster- I think we're talking around each other at this point. I pretty much hate Hillary but voted for her in the general anyways and always felt Bernie would explode the deficit. I think you and I are both looking for "that" person to unite the party.

The Obama people pretty much scattered on Hillary because of her tactics and penchant for self-preservation at all cost. She probably would have been a fine president but a lot of the same ole same ole.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 3, 2017 - 11:52am PT
I don't think I could vote for a person that I hate.

But then, I have not been educated why I should I hate Hillary Clinton.

I voted for her because she, as a strong Democrat, believes in and supports all of the government policy issues and legislation that I do.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 3, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
i say unity party. kasich hickenlooper

:-0
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 3, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
Don't confuse 'popular' with 'electable', let alone 'able to govern.'
Bernie would nominate Nosferatu to chair the Fed.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 3, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
Reilly, I got news for you, Nosferatu's been running the Fed for some time now.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
What is the difference between popular and electable?

It seems to me, that "electable" is an adjective cooked up by people who get frustrated when verifiable facts contradict their preconceived notions. "Unelectable" is a convenient reframing because it is hypothetical and you can't be proven wrong unless a person is already elected. But if your point is to suppress someone before an election, then it is a perfect label to sow discord and doubt without fear of factual contradiction in the time period where you want to influence others.

Now, if there was a poll that said Bernie is popular because lots of people like him, but if the same sample showed that people who like him wouldn't vote for him, that is a different story.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 3, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
Why not Hillary? Ummm.....https://www.sott.net/article/366463-Donna-Brazile-has-exposed-globalist-financing-of-DNC-rigging-for-Killary-the-background-story
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
Well, Gary, we probably agree that economics is called The Dark Science for any number of appropriate reasons, chief of which is undoubtedly its incomprehensibilty to the average crankloon. And given that 43% of Americans are hard pressed to balance their checkbooks, (assuming they have one) Nosferatu would be more understandable, if not more warm and cuddly than Jerome Powell. On the other hand I would love it were Janet Yellen to read me a good night story, especially if she threw in an ad-libbed DSGE model.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 3, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
...chief of which is undoubtedly its incomprehensibilty to the average crankloon.

It also seems incomprehensible to the average economist, going by their track records. Sad!
Jorroh

climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
The Dismal Science...not Dark. I think Dark gives it more credit than its due.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dismal_science
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
Jorrah, I have my own set of monikers, thank you. ‘Dismal’ is too optimistic. The two well known economists I’ll be hosting for dinner tomorrow have adequate senses of humour, and the good sense, to agree with me. ;-)
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 3, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
Crankloon says...

I don’t really know why but I saw it on a bumper sticker so now I embrace it.

This is the essence of the Crankloons. Drooling morons staring at bumper stickers. Trust-funder retard he is.

No clue. Living on lies.

It's comical.

That Crankloon will defend his(?) criminals 100% to support his deluded reality.

I love it. Clinton's and Dem crooks are swirling the bowl.

Losers

zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 06:51pm PT


Secret money to boost Trump
A former anti-Trump financier offers GOP mega-donors who are embarrassed by Trump the chance to help him anonymously.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 3, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
Std clueless zD#@&%e post

Cite your sources? I know...you got nada

You TacoDummies are such weak sauce

You clowns need to suss out your 'party'

You are party fools of epic proportions.

Stop losing

WBraun

climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
That's right ^^^^

They are certified brainwashed insane listening to all that horsesh!t coming out of those st00pid media tools every day .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
501(c)(4)

Registered

Look it up fool

Middle class Americans deserve a larger paycheck. Thank you House Republicans for introducing the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 3, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
You had to know Hillary's driving the party into a brick wall and the false equivalency the Trumpsters will fuk to death would give drf and Werner a simi.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 3, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
Best wishes for those fighting the "gud-fight" tonight.

I'm all mellowed out from 4-daze of frantic "ranchette" fall clean-up before rain & snow this weekend.


But, I still must say:

Halford E. Luccock famously said, “When and if fascism comes to America it will not be labeled ‘made in Germany’; it will not be marked with a swastika; it will not even be called fascism; it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism.’”

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
OK, foreign policy... some sensible thoughts mixed with some tin foil hat ones. You decide which are which.

This headline caught my eye and I immediately thought of the movie Syriana. Highly recommended movie and frame of reference if you haven't seen it. It is very dense with info and subplots- you'll catch new stuff on multiple viewings, and it seems to be a great history/politics lesson describing the USA relationship with the Middle East, with a focus on Saudi Arabia. Real life mirroring fiction?

Saudi Arabia Arrests 11 Princes, Including Billionaire Alwaleed bin Talal
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-waleed-bin-talal.html

So we have a person educated abroad and managing a large investment portfolio, outspoken in support of women, and from his webpage:
One of Prince Alwaleed’s lifetime aims is to initiate meaningful dialogue and discussion between Islam and other world cultures to diffuse tensions and set a path towards openness, understanding, and peace. The Prince has been outraged by the violent actions of an extreme minority who have so hatefully obscured the dignity and peaceful teachings of Islam. He is determined to use his high profile to support peace and initiate positive change for every citizen of the world.
* http://www.alwaleed.com.sa/about/insights-and-view-points/
* http://www.alwaleed.com.sa/about/philosophy/

Now one month after Jared Kushner is in Saudi Arabia for private meetings, we have Alwaleed bin Talal arrested by the dude rising to power, who so concerned German intelligence agencies that they issued warnings to the press more than a year ago:
* http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/prince-mohammed-bin-salman-naive-arrogant-saudi-prince-is-playing-with-fire-a6804481.html
* http://www.dw.com/en/german-spy-agency-warns-of-saudi-intervention-destabilizing-arab-world/a-18889664

It is interesting to note that the dude arrested and President Trump sparred on Twitter before Trump was elected. It's tough to say whether Kutchner's visit had anything to do with this, either encouraging/provoking the move to help prep for aggression with Iran while taking out Trump's enemy, or how to enrich the Trump family through some difficult to trace scheme, or all of the above, or none of the above. But it is questionable, and Kusher's advice has been disclaimed in Washington, and now we have Saudi Arabia that is more deeply entrenched in a war footing ready to help the USA fight Iran while a liberalizing/moderating force has been arrested.

Groundwork for the grand distractions when the impeachment hearings begin? I don't know that I would lay too much of this specifically at Trump's feet, because it seems the USA policy toward Saudi Arabia has been messed up for a long time regardless of USA party in control. But how can any of us really know what is going on?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 4, 2017 - 09:53pm PT
I bet Kushner was trolling the Saudis for a bailout of the billion dollar mistake his family made in Manhattan, swamp dweller POS he is.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:16am PT
Breaking News
Michael Flynn and his son have enough evidence against them to be charged by Mueller

Next on the chopping block:
Wilbur Ross
Jeff Sessions
The Kush

And we all know that the corruption starts at the Top
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:49am PT
Lock him up!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:58am PT
For those following the Republican's tax plan news, this Fortune Magazine article might well be of interest.

It explains that it's not a big deal to the ultra-wealthy that the top income bracket didn't get lowered, since there are so many other great tax loopholes for them.

http://fortune.com/2017/11/03/trump-gop-tax-plan-loophole/

Did You Catch the Huge Loophole in the GOP Tax Plan? The Rich Sure Did.

The article is summed up nicely with this statement:

The unfortunate truth is that this so-called millionaires’ tax is little more than a talking point developed to assuage public concern about income inequality and a tax plan that could make it worse by substantially boosting the after-tax income of the wealthiest Americans.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:01am PT
George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty for lying about his collusion with Russia to get dirt on Hillary

How would Russia get dirt on Hillary?
They would break into the Democratic National Committee and steal damaging information. The same thing that Nixon was impeached for.

It's funny that after all the Russian hacking, that they never were able to hack into Hillary's private e-mail server.

So all the pages of MB's hysterics about Hillary risking National Security was nothing more than the rants of a madman.
Trump was the risk, always was, and he voted for him. Typical right wing programmable diversion into outrage against the opposite of where the outrage should be directed.

Also not discussed, Russian's hacked the Trump Organization 4 years ago.
Which points further to Trump being compromised by the Russian's

Hackers Compromised the Trump Organization 4 Years Ago—and the Company Never Noticed

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/11/hackers-compromised-the-trump-organization-4-years-ago-and-the-company-never-noticed/

Four years ago, the Trump Organization experienced a major cyber breach that could have allowed the perpetrator (or perpetrators) to mount malware attacks from the company’s web domains and may have enabled the intruders to gain access to the company’s computer network. Up until this week, this penetration had gone undetected by President Donald Trump’s company, according to several internet security researchers.

In 2013, a hacker (or hackers) apparently obtained access to the Trump Organization’s domain registration account and created at least 250 website subdomains that cybersecurity experts refer to as “shadow” subdomains. Each one of these shadow Trump subdomains pointed to a Russian IP address, meaning that they were hosted at these Russian addresses. (Every website domain is associated with one or more IP addresses. These addresses allow the internet to find the server that hosts the website. Authentic Trump Organization domains point to IP addresses that are hosted in the United States or countries where the company operates.) The creation of these shadow subdomains within the Trump Organization network was visible in the publicly available records of the company’s domains.
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:31am PT
You have no ultimate clue who the real so-called hackers really are.

The only thing you have is the horse sh!t words "hacker/s and the mental speculated projections toward Russia by the way of so-called IP addresses.

IP addresses can be so easily spoofed to make them come from anywhere even from your own C Fry's computer as YOU being the hacker itself.

But just keep on brainwashing yourself with your one-eyed slant in life by the daily news they spoon feed you into your dense overloaded brain .....

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:46am PT
Looks like the word salad spinner is running on high.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:59am PT
But since you can’t counter his arguments all yer left with is the same old third grader’s personal attack shizz.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:03am PT
Donald, why don't you prove that you know enough to lecture others?

you barf out the same vague, unsupported dribble with every statement

in your mind you are a legend

to others you are a broken record of nonsense

"Why don't you shove off if it bothers you so much?"
B. Dylan
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:11am PT
I agree
But since Werner can’t counter his arguments all yer left with is the same old third grader’s personal attack shizz.
but are we sure he even made it through third grade?
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:24am PT
But just keep on brainwashing yourself with your one-eyed slant in life by the daily news they spoon feed you into your dense overloaded brain .....


ahem . . . (cough)
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:40am PT
but are we sure he even made it through third grade?

I never went to third grade like YOU fools did.

I stayed First grade, as third grade is always lower quality like you easily manipulated brainwashed fools are.

You loons all buy third grade products .....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:48am PT
BTW, as I noted a page or so back, I had two internationally known economists over for dinner and head banging last night. They’re working on a soon to be published major paper on social security with Peter Diamond, the 2010 Nobel laureate and uncontested authority on SS.

First the good news - us baby boomers are golden - no worries!
Now the bad news - the rest of you loozers are screwed! But thanks for paying for us! BwaHaHaHa! OK, so it is a tad more nuanced and probably not entirely so dire. But that depends on a number of things - some of which are not entirely within the system’s control (not that they couldn’t be provided for). The main problems, like so many in gubmint, are the proverbial cans being kicked down the road so they can be dealt with at the last minute which, of course, is the way politicians prefer to deal with major issues. The bottom line, that would be Line 666, is that there could be big problems in as soon as 10 or 15 years. The subscript to Line 666 is any of you who are under 55 better cleanse any impure thoughts from yer little crankloon heads about relying on a nice fat SS check in yer dotage and get serious about saving NOW!

Yer welcome. :-/
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:55am PT
This may confirm my speculation that Werner was a feral child.
Just like Joe Dirt, his parents left him behind in Yosemite and was raised by wolfs.

And slowly but surely, he became the Alpha male that knows all and we all must respect his "authority", and of course he has to fight all new comers to maintain his top position.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 10:01am PT
Trump has reneged on every campaign promise made to help the working class.. Healthcare more affordable for everyone..? Cosmic still can't afford back surgery... Draining the swamp..? Trump has enlisted wall street billionaires to work in his administration.. Helping American working families.. ? He tried to eliminate health insurance for millions of Americans and is trying to create more tax loop holes for the wealthy...The working class will pick up the tab for these tax cuts as programs that help the impoverished get eliminated to pay for Trump's tax cuts...Trump is a habitual liar and his lies are beginning to catch up to him...38% approval rating... Muellar is circling the swamp and picking off Trumps swamp creatures one by one..
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 10:05am PT
Werner had mullet when he was a toddler..? Sic...
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 5, 2017 - 10:29am PT
Coming over the Coronado Bay Bridge this morning after a surf I noticed that there were no aircraft carriers in port. You don't see that very often- hmm?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 5, 2017 - 10:35am PT
who's the serial deleting loon?

Any crankloon with any sense of embarrassment.

I note that nobody has commented on my previous post, not that I’m surprised.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 5, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
The latest WA Post/ABC NEWS poll shows Trump is less popular than ever, except with those who voted for him, who are apparently too stupid or obstinate to change their little minds.

Approaching the first anniversary of his victory over Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election, Trump has an approval rating demonstrably lower than any previous chief executive at this point in his presidency over seven decades of polling. Fewer than 4 in 10 Americans — 37 percent — say they approve of the way he is handling his job.


This graphic shows the major erosion in those that think Trump is doing an excellent or good job on four major issues, between Jan. 2017 & now.








https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-trumps-performance-lags-behind-even-tepid-public-expectations/2017/11/04/35d2a912-bf4d-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?utm_term=.94a73d149825
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
I have plenty to say about how the Republicans have worked to screw the American people out of SS and Medicare.

The system could easily fixed but not w/o a total take over of our Gov. by Democrats, the Republicans have had their way pretty much since 1980, so you can't expect the Dems to save us because they didn't have the power to fix it.

The Dems gave us these entitlements and the Republicans are hell bent to take them away.

Obama had a filibuster proof Senate for a total of 27 Senate working days, they were only able to get ObamaCare through at that time.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 5, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
actually there were only 58 and not 60 Democratic Senators during those 27 days...

fortunately the two independents, Lieberman and Sanders, joined with the Dems

in addition, during those 27 days and with Kennedy coming in on a wheelchair, that same group also passed the Lilly Fair Pay Act, giving equal pay to equal work

not one Republican Senator voted to insure women are paid the same as men for the same job

 question, can anyone name even three pieces of legislation the Republicans have passed that have benefited the middle class? So why then did you vote for Bush, Romney and then Trump?
c wilmot

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
Fast forward to 2017 and only 15 democrats voted in favor of continuing funding for the children's health insurance program...
While only 3 republicans voted against it...
It passed the house with overwhelming republican support...

How many dems made a fuss about this only to vote against the bill to fund the program?

It's great theatre... a comedic tragedy if you will




Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
ok c. Wilmot

now use your powerful intellect this time and report back as to why so many Democrats voted against it, point by point, hint - google the vote, a measure that Democrats started and have overwhelmingly supported at each funding vote

include in your analysis the likelihood of the House bill actually getting the Senate to approve it in its present form

show your intelligence is not just as knee jerk, shallow, that you exhibited above
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
cwilmot,


The republicans don’t usually give a sh;t about poor, sick children (or children at all period because Sandy Hook), and those bleeding heart liberal democrats generally do profess to care.

So, someone who doesn’t have their head too far up the a$$ of Fox, Limbaugh, Daily Caller, or Infowars, would ask themselves, “why are they voting so against type?”

Maybe it’s because the method of funding was designed by republicans to undermine the ACA and Medicare.


edit—Norton beat me to it
c wilmot

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
So the dems are sacrificing the children's health insurance program in order to save Obamacare?
Perhaps you should ask your political rep why they voted no..

Me- I sit back and watch the show.. I don't support any of those criminals
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
Good luck trying to educate the Trump supporters most of whom are going to get bent over without lube...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Perhaps you should ask your Republican rep why they voted to screw those under 55.
Taking no sides is just giving power to those that want to take our earned entitlements away from us.

You can call yourself a causality of the propaganda "both sides are same".
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 5, 2017 - 01:58pm PT
Me- I sit back and watch the show.. I don't support any of those criminals


So, c wilmot, you float above it all, untainted and unbiased, laughing sagely at our foolish partisan views of this tragicomedy.

But it seems to me that you have bought into the way the republicans, and especially the alt-right, are framing our choices and their decisions these days.


http://www.businessinsider.com/republican-men-feel-discriminated-against-trump-clinton-election-2016-10

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=oYr_WdT8Fo6ejwPVj5bwBw&q=trump+zero+sum&oq=trump+zer&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.1.0l5.2876.8525.0.10284.10.9.0.1.1.0.254.1160.0j8j1.9.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.10.1187.3..41j0i131k1j0i131i155k1.0.CSoUP12RDrg
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
Lennox you are connected to alt čřaňkl00n the brainwashed loonism of this thread ....
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 5, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
Hi Werner!

Sorry to disappoint, but based on the alternative, I have to accept the title of brainwashed crankloon with pride.

WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
LOL .... you're the Man !!!!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 5, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
Paradise Papers coming to a town near you
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Nov 5, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
Crankloons at Six O'clock under a November Moon

Crankloons at six o'clock
Under a November moon
The politics and smack talk are flying around
I know it won't end here soon

Big egos and quivering blowholes
Blathering on about power
Insulting and bating here endlessly
Forty odd posts in the space of an hour

Never wanting to be left out
I've made far less sense though I've posted far less
Not caring to focus on the arguments
Lengthy with their baggage like a long divorce mess

With bungs that won't clean with an air tool
There's no argument can't be won with more words
The blame's been spread equally all about
Among nerds who toss ideas like apes with their turds

Crankloons at six o'clock
Under a November moon
The politics and smack talk are flying around
I know it won't end here soon

-bushman
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 5, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
NAS North Island.

Well, the Midway is always in port and the others (2?) are not usually there simultaneously.

"We anticipate the return of a second aircraft carrier, and we will maintain -- we do maintain -- the capability for three," Rear Adm. Dixon Smith said.

Speaking of aircraft carriers, the 'Fat' Leonard bribery corruption scandal has now grown to 60 admirals under investigation. From what I've heard there are about 210 active duty admirals.

"As the Washington Post reports, the Singapore-based Francis bribed officers of the Navy’s Seventh Fleet — the service’s largest fleet that operates in Asia — with gifts like prostitutes, money, and vacations while they docked in his ports from Russia to Australia. In exchange, Francis received classified information — including warship and submarine movements — and sensitive contracting developments."


First the good news - us baby boomers are golden - no worries!
Now the bad news - the rest of you loozers are screwed! But thanks for paying for us! BwaHaHaHa! OK, so it is a tad more nuanced and probably not entirely so dire. But that depends on a number of things - some of which are not entirely within the system’s control (not that they couldn’t be provided for). The main problems, like so many in gubmint, are the proverbial cans being kicked down the road so they can be dealt with at the last minute which, of course, is the way politicians prefer to deal with major issues. The bottom line, that would be Line 666, is that there could be big problems in as soon as 10 or 15 years. The subscript to Line 666 is any of you who are under 55 better cleanse any impure thoughts from yer little crankloon heads about relying on a nice fat SS check in yer dotage and get serious about saving NOW!

Yer welcome. :-/

This is news?

I never factored SS into my equation, but I cash the checks and do use medicare. I paid into both.

I'm waiting for my review copy of the paper, but in the meantime, what did you have for dinner.


monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 5, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
Texas AG says more guns in church are needed.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-Attorney-General-Ken-Paxton-More-people-12333868.php

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 5, 2017 - 06:48pm PT

We need more guns.

We clearly need more guns in church.

And more guns in high rises, and more guns in nightclubs, and more guns in movie theaters and high schools and nursery schools


We obviously don’t have enough guns.

When will we have enough guns?

Who knows?

We just need to get more guns out there until the killing stops!

When will the killing stop???



Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
Every man, woman and child should be required to carry a loaded gun at all times to do their civic duty in providing security of assured self destruction.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
No such thing as too many guns
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
Your guns protect my freedom...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
Impeach Bill and Hillary..
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
School prayer would have prevented these massacres...
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:28pm PT

http://autooverload.com/comical-photos-from-walmart/4/
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 5, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
God wouldn't hate America as much, if we only had God in our schools again & of course more guns.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
I blame Obama.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:01am PT
I'm thinking of getting the little woman a kevlar vest for Christmas. Something that could be worn as an undergarment. Any suggestions?
c wilmot

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:07am PT
With every event that occurs we end up glorifying the actions by sensationalizing the crime in our media.
Every time this occurs it incentivezes, encourages, and normalizes such behavior.
By allowing ourselves to be outraged and entertained by such crimes we only work to encourage those who are mentally ill and suicidal into going out with a bang
It's almost like a morbid contest at this point
Most of these shootings/attacks all seem to have the same MO: an angry individual who has failed in life decides to commit suicide via mass carnage

We have set a precident that will be hard if not impossible to overcome
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:14am PT
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:47am PT
FBI whistleblower exposes Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s conflict of interest.

https://www.newsbud.com/2017/10/24/targeting-michael-flynn-shielding-the-radical-cleric-gulen-special-counsel-robert-mueller-must-step-down/
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:10am PT
Newsbud, for those who find Infowars to be too sensible.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:36am PT
“Newsbud”, and he says some of us are brainwashed. Too funny.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:47am PT
This may be somewhat off topic than healthcare but it is a national issue, I believe.

Re: Mass shootings

C. Wilmot, I agree with your post (08:07 PT), but where is the line to be drawn by responsible news gatherers/reporters? These things need to be reported but on the flip side does it encourage other nutcases to do the same?

And at what point does the coverage cease, lest others copycat?

Not quite the same, but perhaps along the same vein. From the movie The Dead Pool (1988), when the character Gus Wheeler, who claims he is the Dead Pool killer, and says he is about to torch himself (just for the news coverage):

Gus Wheeler: “No! Nobody ever paid any attention to me before. In order to get attention, you gotta do something.”

Samantha Walker (reporter): “Did you have anything to do with the deaths...of Johnny Squares and Molly Fisher?”

Wheeler: “No, I just said that so you'd listen!”

Walker tells her cameraman not to film. That is Hollywood, so to speak.

In reality C. Wilmot, what is an editor or producer going to do? Choices have to be made. Responsible media has a duty to the public, but what if some deem that duty to be a detriment?

As with everything (just about) it is not a case of black and white, the shades of grey are there.

I worked news on KTVU Ch 2 (Oakland, now a Fox affiliate), worked on nationals in England and Ireland, a journalist for over 44 years in five countries. I sort of know the media, I am certainly a student of it.

How to provide news coverage and yet not sensationalise it? I know, and have seen, editors who have debated that at the time of such events. I have been in those newsrooms.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:59am PT
I confess to knowing nothing about Newsbud.

The folks at Media Bias/Fact Check say this on the subject:

Factual Reporting: MIXED

Notes: Newsbud (NB) is a right wing, conspiracy and anti-government site founded by, among others, Kurt Nimmo, the former lead editor and writer for Infowars. What sets NB apart from other sites of this type is that the stories are, for the most part, well written and contain numerous sources. The bias of the writing is also more subtle than sites such as Infowars, but just as prevalent. Both as an overtone to all the stories as well as the sometimes questionable sources and / or the conclusions drawn from the source material. Additionally, many of their sources are other NB stories, or work the author and editors have done elsewhere.
-

Good writing, copious sources, and the lack of over the top hyperbole present on similar sites cannot, however, mask the overall intent and agenda of NB, and earns them a rating of Conspiracy. (D. Kelley 6/12/2017)


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/newsbud/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 10:02am PT
Paddy, yer insider’s viewpoint is always appreciated. After a month in Olde Blighty this summer I have to say that BBC coverage, I’m thinking of the Grenville coverage, can swerve dangerously close to sensationalist. However, in the end they almost always salvage the show with some degree of astuteness and rationality. I aver that is due to their education and the ‘BBC culture’. La Femme grew up listening to the BBC daily in deepest darkest Afrique (in English, mind you) so we listen to it via sat radio in our road trip rig constantly. It is delightfully strange driving some remote four-wheeler road in Wyoming hearing “This is the BBC.”

ps
A trip to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich will avail you as to the proverbial 4 beeps on the hour! ;-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 10:08am PT
Yes Fritz, there is so much noise out there (Infowars and Kos being just two examples), it can be difficult to get the straight and narrow.

So this is where critical thinking (skills) come into play, in my opinion. While I am a liberal (no kidding some may say) I do read and peruse non-liberal, read conservative, media. Perhaps even some alt-left and alt-right, just to try and keep a pulse on matters.

Do they still teach critical thinking in school? Some of my J-high and high school teachers, and most of my professors sure thought highly of critical thinking.


EDIT

Two things Reilly. Yes, the BBC can sometimes seem like it is sensationalizing, if so not near as just about any Western news organization. (I turned down a job with the Beeb in August 1989, that is another story though.)

Secondly, Greenwich Observatory is so cool.

(And if I seem to flip between British and American spellings, it is either the spell check, or that I worked on Jazz Express magazine in London BITD, and the editor, she insisted American contributors had their spellings kept the same, and British likewise with theirs. Not sure if William Safire would agree with that, but then he probably would).

(Either that or I am a schizophrenic Gemini, where one part of the brain, one of the twins, doesn't know what the other twin's half is doing.)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 6, 2017 - 10:16am PT
answer the questions, Mr. Dumas
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 10:22am PT
As in Alexandre?
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
Fritz -- "I confess to knowing nothing about Newsbud."

I'm in the same boat that's why I threw that link to that article here as I knew for sure the politards here would be all over it.

Hahahaha

It does shed some interesting light on things if it could be absolutely confirmed true.

But who knows?

Only the clueless brainwashed politards here claim all knowledge to this endless internet news horesh!t they present every day here .......
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 6, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
I read on Newsbud that a waitress in Modesto served a patty melt to Elvis over the weekend. She has his lip print on a piece of melted cheese. It’s him for sure.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 6, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
National Mental Health professionals are now freed by the national association to offer their opinions on the psychic makeup of politicians

Regarding their assessment of Donald Trump - in short although not classically "mentally ill", very damaged

He is a first class Narcissist - consumed with a me first above all else personality

His compulsion to constantly and personally attack other people shows a low opinion of himself

deep inside he is afraid of his own lack of intelligence and hides it by insulting others

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/29/trump-mental-health-book/
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
Werner, whatever you are you are a provocateur. Perhaps like The Donald? Hah hah.

BTW, that is meant to be a friendly description. I don't always agree with you, often disagree with your stoopid statements, but...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
Folks, I think these are two pretty good articles (and there are a lot out there).

The first from the BBC. Yes the Beeb is somewhat liberal (not left wing), but I have found it always to be the one of the most objective news organizations on this planet.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41826022


And from the Irish Independent, hardly a liberal publication, to say the least, though not as conservative as The Irish Times.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/president-trump/a-president-without-precedent-36285096.html

Of course these are just basically opinion pieces.

Fake news or not, history will determine that. In one way or another.

And as far as Fake News and the MSM is concerned, it is my experience that there are far more checks and balances, and the ability to say "mea culpa" when a mistake is made, with corrections, with MSM than in other media sources

Is MSM corporate controlled? Yes and no (I have worked on some of them). Are the so-called alternative media news websites free of influence? Ask yourself that. Do they have checks and balances?

When I was starting out in the early/mid-1970s, my professors and subsequently editors said: "If in doubt leave it out. Substantiate, substantiate, substantiate." Perhaps some of that has gone sadly by the wayside, but I will argue that the MSM it is still more objective and fact finding than many of the right and left "news" websites.

I have worked with a lot of good journalists on these so-called Fake News MSM organizations, and I call bullshit on Donald Trump and his ilk. He is the Fake News. And he can spout off as much as he wants, but time will tell. He doesn't fool me, does he you?

I am not a billionaire (just paid the phone/broadband bill, that hurt my finances, chasing my financial tail, who isn't). But I can smell sh#t, and while the Dems and Repubs reek of it, Donald is at the top (or is that bottom) of the sh#t pile.

He oozes crap.

It is so tiring to see my beloved country go down the drain. The end of an era. I'll be elsewhere when the sh#t hits the fan. Call me a coward, but for once in my life, I may be sensible.

EDIT

I will tell you what I am wary (weary?) of, it is that I am going to save up to make the July Sawyer family reunion in Washington, a state/territory the Sawyers have been in since 1843, the last one I was at was 1993 near Everett.

And I will be wary of being sucked into politics in any discussions on the day (I know Sawyers). I will say: "I did not travel some 5,000 miles, save for months, to discuss politics. I can spiel what I want online. I came here to see relatives I have not seen for years and meet new ones. And have a good time on the day."

And if I am lucky enough to ever make a Facelift in the Valley, I would just want to shoot climbing bull and climb. Politics can be so, yesterday. Not really, but if I was to make a Facelift, I'd probably have to sell a kidney in some third world country to finance such a trip to the Valley. And I happen to like my kidneys. Talking politics and shite is not worth the journey.

I may shoot the politard bull with you people online, but face to face, let's just climb, life is too short.

End of story.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 6, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
I fear that the rise of all these alternative news sites - are many of them for "real" (?) - are skewing the equation. Let us face it, news is also a business, perhaps the freedom of the press is enshrined in our constitutional DNA, but news does not come cheap. Especially well-produced objective professional news, with checks and balances.

However, are the big boys, so to speak, feeling the pressure?

Are economics driving the MSM? Yes, to an extent. Can one survive and sustain a proper news gathering disseminating apparatus on thin air. Of course there has to be a sound business model in order to survive. But that does not mean selling one's soul to the devil.

I have worked on a Murdoch title (I will not reveal, it is embarrassing, but I had rent and bills to pay, I was a news slut, but I never skewed the truth, I reported honestly, the editors skewed it, why I quit).

My point is, we are headed down an abyss.

I can go on but it is almost 2am and I am tired. I will continue later though, because it means a lot to me. True communications is the lifeblood of a healthy society, a health democracy, a healthy republic. Bye for now.

NB Who was the toughest person I interviewed? The late Maggie. She would chew up and spit Donald's head out. I did not agree with her politics and policies, but damn was she tough.

EDIT

So I won't bump this to the front page

C. Wilmot, this is an interesting read, especially the third 'section'

"The shooters are inspired by media accounts"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41890277
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 7, 2017 - 09:24am PT

The simple answer to the question: What explains US mass shootings? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?emc=edit_ta_20171107&nl=top-stories&nlid=72321538&ref=headline&_r=0

After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 incident. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.

That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.

“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 7, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
Fitch is the lesser known of the "Big Three" credit ratings agencies, which also includes Standard & Poor's, & Moody's. Here's what Wikipedia says on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Three_(credit_rating_agencies);

If Fitch says the Republican tax cuts are bad for the economy, they are.

Fitch Ratings: GOP tax plan will hike deficits, be 'revenue negative'
The GOP tax plan will increase deficits and only have a short-term effect on growth, according to an analysis by credit ratings agency Fitch.

“Tax cuts may lead to a short-lived boost to output, but Fitch believes that they will not pay for themselves or lead to a permanently higher growth rate,” the analysis said.

Fitch said it expected U.S. gross domestic product growth to peak in 2018 before dropping down to 2.2 percent in 2019. The Trump administration has claimed its reforms would lead to sustained economic growth of 3 percent a year.
The ratings agency also said that the additional deficits brought on by the tax bill would leave the U.S. exposed when the next economic downturn hit. Policymakers often try to stimulate the economy with tax cuts and deficit spending when recessions hit. An already-deep deficit leaves them with fewer options, and could put the country’s credit rating and borrowing costs at risk when a downturn hits.

“The U.S. is the most indebted 'AAA' country and it is running the loosest fiscal stance. Long-term debt dynamics are also more negative than those of peers, with health and social security spending commitments set to rise over the next decade,” the report said, calling the impact "revenue negative."

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/359178-fitch-ratings-gop-tax-plan-wont-raise-growth-permanently
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 7, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
DMT...What's so complex about the issue...Humans are idiots getting crazier by the minute...Loonies shouldn't be allowed to own military grade weapons ... Sell the loonies machine guns and the loonies are going to blast a bunch of innocent bystanders...Cops lock up their assault rifles because they are afraid the loonies will get their hands on them while congress passes laws that put these weapons in the loonies hands..I think this meets the definition of insanity...rj
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 7, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 incident. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.

Dingus is right in that people here in the USA did not decide as a group to do nothing about mass murder

in fact, the vast majority of Americans definitely want stronger gun laws, at minimum more background checks, restricting sales to the mentally ill, and restricting military assault rifles

but Americans then ignore their own above convictions when they vote to put Republicans instead of Democrats in political power, it is no secret the NRA gives large sums to keep Republicans in power and they are rewarded

and yes, even when 25 eight year olds at Newtown were slaughtered Republicans did their masters' bidding, refusing to allow a vote on even requiring background checks at gun shows

the three G's rule why undereducated white males vote Republican - God, Guns, and Gays, fear, fear, and fear
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:16pm PT

I've got something in my front pocket for you
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
As Norton said, the vast majority of Americans want stricter gun laws.

But we still don’t have the laws we need in place to minimize gun violence.

Because those Americans who keep voting in the same Republicans are not prioritizing the enactment of stricter gun laws, even though they may be in favor of them, it is fair to say that they are essentially deciding that the mass murder of young children is bearable.

To start with, I would like to see all auto-loading (gas, recoil, blowback, etc.) firearms banned as well as high capacity magazines.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
so who's gonna collect the ones already in my front pocket Lennox? the black man's kenyan socialist colonialist control of the armed forces is passed and lordy lordy aint no white men gwine tryn takem


I doubt we can even get together as a legislated nation on noise suppressors, armor piercing munitions.

we all know that mac10s are only worth legislating when crack dealers wield them.


the nut of the issue(s) (pardon) lie(s) in Testosteroni poisoning. no it's not dietary

and yes as a 'merican man I am totally loathe to give up my armaments. I even get a little randy for the "copkiller" rounds.

totally agree wih you, and yet....
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
brave cowboy is right, with some 300 million guns already in America you can't go around confiscating them

so the Republicans are ultimately right, it is too late in the game to pass any laws

they also like to say our present gun laws are perfect, not too many and just right

and of course our thoughts and prayers go out just about every week now

and it is always too soon to talk about possibly doing something, have to pray now

then drag out the good old line - laws are no good because criminals ignore laws anyway

so give up, its the price we pay for living in a free society, another good line they use

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
One solution is to schedule another Republican powder puff fantasy baseball game and hand out some AR-!5's to the homeless loonies...
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
RJ you kill me (it?)



and yeah Andre, I agree: "Spend yer daisies well, there is no time. That's what I do" (you stocking up on some ammo in addition to them dubloons?)


[Click to View YouTube Video]
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 7, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
There's still plenty of time Moose, there's still lots of ruin in an empire this size.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:14am PT
And Trump is our Tiberius?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:28am PT
If any gun laws do get enacted, they would only apply to NEW Purchases

There are no proposals that would entail taking guns away from people that already have them.

But if you have a automatic weapon at home, it would be considered an illegal weapon, and you can turn it in, or hide it, your choice.

This talk of grabbing guns is pure hysteria perpetuated by the NRA, and we know the NRA is nothing more than a gun manufacturing lobby that wants to sell more of it's merchandise.

It's all about money in the end.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 8, 2017 - 08:11am PT
lol... the NRA...

The US Gov't is the biggest murder machine on the planet.

Laws are only for the proles.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 8, 2017 - 08:36am PT
Steve Bannon, Trump's Rasputin
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 8, 2017 - 08:49am PT

After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 incident. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.

DM says: The United States isn't a block vote and doesn't decide anything as a voice of one, ever. This sort of simplistic presentation is just 'preaching to the choir' for those readers who have already reached the same conclusion and want to hear others reaching it too.

For example, how has the United States 'determined' this 'worth the cost' conclusion?

That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.

DM says:
The Choice! Such a singularity! Of course its bullshit and no such conclusion has been determined.

“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

DM says:
Idiotic. If that's the POV you subscribe to, so be it but it's just one writer's fairly ignorant conclusion and broad brushes a very complex situation.


Statistics is clear. The single most important factor is the prevalence of guns in the US and the only way seen to be effective in other countries is strict gun control laws

Dingus:
Do you support strict gun control laws? If not, you in reality give the possibility to buy guns like you do it today higher priority than to protect American children's lives. Is that stupid? Is that irresponsible? Is that unethical? Yes, I think so.

Isn't it also a statistical fact, that 5-10 % of the American population own 80-85 % of the guns. Do you think people loving guns/having most guns are among the most stable, least aggressive, least paranoid people in America?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:06am PT
'Thoughts and prayers' — and fistfuls of NRA money: Why America can't control guns

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-nra-money-20171003-story.html

There is no better example of the corrosive effect of money on American politics than the spending of the National Rifle Assn.

The gun rights organization spent a stupendous $54.4 million in the 2016 election cycle, almost all of it in “independent expenditures,” meaning spending for or against a candidate but not a direct contribution to a campaign. The money went almost entirely to Republicans to a degree that almost looks like a misprint (but isn’t): Of independent expenditures totaling $52.6 million, Democrats received $265.

If you’re looking for a reason that politicians are quick to declare that their “thoughts and prayers” are with the victims of the horrific slaughters that have become virtually routine in American life, but do nothing further to stop them, look no further.

The Center for Responsive Politics has compiled the baleful figures on the NRA’s election spending for its Open Secrets website. A spreadsheet showing totals spent on behalf of individual members of Congress through 2016 is here; the center is working to update the figures, and we will publish them once it does. The Washington Post has an interactive web page showing NRA contributions since 1998 to current members of Congress.

As the Center for Responsive Politics observes, the recipients of NRA largess almost always let their pocketbooks do the voting for them. The NRA endowed the 54 senators who voted in 2015 against a measure prohibiting people on the government’s terrorist watch list from buying guns with $37 million in support; only one Democrat voted against the measure — Sen. Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, who has never received NRA support.

So most of the money is spent on smearing the opposition and creating fear by lying about what the other side might do, sad...

fear is strong emotion, and all this fear is based on LIES
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:51am PT
Meanwhile, NWO2 will scan the sky for chemtrails.


Brace yourself for onslaught of chemtrail 'evidence' from NWO2.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:52am PT
Russian-deployed chemtrails are what elected trump.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
The big question is how much cheating will have to go on for the GOP to hold onto congress.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
yes Fluoride in our drinking water in addition to chemtrails, OMG

---------


I thought our thoughts and prayers already went out, didn't they get them?

--------

has the tape of Trump in a Russian hotel room watching prostitutes urinate on the bed, at his request the same bed that President Obama and his wife slept in when they visited Russia - google pee pee tape, better than Bill and Monica?
----------------------
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 8, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Yeah, Norton, ask yourself: have you ever seen an Illuminati drink a glass of water?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
MSNBC cable news, Huffington Post are two definitely left leaning outlets

CNN however, does not lean left nor right, they strive for and achieve a no bias

but since you, twice banned New World Order, have stated CNN is "liberal"

prove it honey boo boo, prove they lie and lie in such a way that benefits the left
in the same way it has been proven that Fox lies to benefit the right

let us hear about all the lies CNN tells? every heard of not knowing your azz from second base?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 8, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
Norton, how can you prove they don’t have a bias? Every reporter has a bias as evidenced merely by their choice of verbs, adverbs, and adjectives. They ALWAYS report that a plane ‘plummeted’ to the earth when usually that is completely fake.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 8, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Len Bias died of a drug overdose which was supplied by Kapoor.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
New World Order-
"Poor, poor snowflakes are losing their minds. Off their meds"

"That's all you got, Gary? Weak sauce?"

"You're in denial, Nortloon. Good luck with that."


"Come on, dewwwed. Challenge my contentions, or at least the Libtard articles."

^For reals??!! Now that, ladies and gentlemen is fake news.

"Lol....Stray from the subject, much?"

"You're in denial, Nortloon. Good luck with that."

HELP ME!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
holy sh#t NaF2 is a rodenticide guyz!

stop using fluorinated anythin'!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
I would like to hear more from 2nd Amendment defenders, especially on the following concept:

I interpret the 2nd Amendment to be a mechanism for people to rise up against what is perceived as an oppressive government, in the manner that led to the creation of the United States of America. The idea is to provide a sort of balance of power between individuals and the government.

In the USA today, this idea of individual rights being secured against the government by any number of guns is a farce. The technological changes in the world in the last centuries have dramatically changed the power equations between individuals and governments. No assemblage of individuals with unlimited firearms can overcome the lethal force that the United States government can bring with near-omnipresent surveillance, remotely target weaponry and drones, nuclear and chemical weapons, etc. What is a roomful or city-full of AK-47s in that context? Ridiculous. So maybe they can be leveraged to take control of a nuclear missile silo or to bomb a chemical weapons plant? Is that scenario what the 2nd amendment is for? I don't think so.

So the idea of using physical force to ensure our citizens are protected from government overreach is ridiculous. That said, the problem of government overreach is potentially real. The mechanisms to deal with it successfully, if that is possible at this stage, is not going to be through guns, at least not directly. Maybe widespread civil war and lethal fighting will shut down businesses and destroy tax revenue and effectively starve the government of money... but honestly, I am more worried about corporations and wealthy organizations abusing me than I am worried about my government abusing me.

At least I have a voice in the government via voting, public protest, spreading of information, etc., to effect change in government. I have no such powers against corporations or wealthy organizations that exist primarily to increase their own wealth. At least our government has a formal charter to support the rights of citizens, even if it becomes bent and twisted in the ongoing power struggles of humanity.


It is pretty ironic that an idea and right granted to protect citizens from the government has been subverted and used as a distraction to enable our citizens to lose more rights in the face of an oppressive government. If people weren't so emotionally distracted by this issue, they might have more space to be rational and consider what are the real threats in our society that weaken citizens in the face of government:

1. a government more responsive to corporate rights than citizen's rights
2. a government unable and unwilling to ensure its citizens have reasonable access to:
 clean air
 clean water
 healthy food sources
 education sufficient to earn a living above poverty
 healthcare sufficient to not live in misery and penury

These are the fundamental requirements of life in our modern interconnected world, for individuals to have the means to make positive contributions to society. Without these things, all the self-directed efforts of citizens to better themselves, and indirectly benefit our society, come to naught. The status quo encourages loss of hope, a life of crime, or an escape to an agrarian subsistence cut off from the modern world.

How exactly are guns part of the equation to resolve these pressures on the citizenry? OK, I'll grant you the following ways that guns help:
 hunting food to live a hunter/gather or agrarian existence
 defend against fellow citizens (or non-citizens) who have abandoned hope in the system and turn to a life of crime

This last one would seemingly tear a hole in the entire argument against guns... and is perhaps why the issue is overall so hotly debated. Rather than treating the symptoms, why don't we invest more in solving the root problems? Why do people abandon hope in the system and turn to a life of crime? If this problem was better managed, we wouldn't have to defend against as many fellow humans. And obviously the legality of guns doesn't lead to more defense against gun massacres- it just enables more of them. Adding guns to the system in theory might defend against these people, but it also arms more of them, negating the benefits of the defense, and thus undermining the argument for keeping guns to protect against other people.

I think the long-term solution will have to honor the use of guns as a utility for hunting food or protecting livestock against predators, for people pursuing an agrarian life (where a need for personal responsibility to secure defense against other humans might be more important too). But guns in the name of self-defense in an urban context, or as protection from the government, is a positive feedback system that destroys our society.

Maybe our urban vs rural voting patterns show that we have a broad agreement on these concepts, even if they aren't typically discussed in these explicit terms.

Thoughts?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
There's a big misconception about what the 2nd amendment really means.












































thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
Love it Fet!


I keep 'em for zombies, mainly, Nut.

And the impending American descent into a Mad Max-esque world of self-defense or doom. I hope.

Really though, a breakdown of digitalized, electrified petroindustrial and , say, city water infrastructure could really cause localized martial law type problems in the very short term. I mean I like my neighbors and all, but if they turn zombie....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
^^^ I have actually considered owning a firearm for this post-civilization scenario...

But then I thought it's a matter of dying fast or slowly. No matter how many guns I buy or how well I train with them, somebody will have more than me and in the absence of a law-abiding society, they'll kill me and take my stuff.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 9, 2017 - 05:35am PT
It’s a very high standard akin to conceding free speech or the right to associate.

I would argue that the 1st amendment has been happily trampled on several times in the past. The 2nd amendment seems more akin to some holy writ. As you say, Dingus, the body count will have to get a lot higher. Or a few more incidents like the assault at the Republican congressional baseball game.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 9, 2017 - 07:01am PT
...No matter how many guns I buy or how well I train with them, somebody will have more than me and in the absence of a law-abiding society, they'll kill me and take my stuff....

I hear this defeatist attitude bleated frequently. The other is fearing your own gun used against you.

And although being overrun may prove to be true I can't fathom the rationale behind not fighting to the best of your ability. This includes not only the best tools available but the proper attitude and planning.

Firearms are used every single minute around the world by people in defense.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 9, 2017 - 08:50am PT

Firearms are used every single minute around the world by people in defense.

That's not so. Exclude war and people usually argue or walk away to defend themselves, they don't fire a gun. In America with the extreme prevalence of guns, too many people end up arguing with their guns...

That's a simple fact.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 9, 2017 - 09:22am PT
What does the Supreme Court actually say?

On pp. 54 and 55, the majority opinion, written by conservative bastion Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 9, 2017 - 09:36am PT
The Second Amendment says

because we are still at war against King George of England we need to be prepared

therefore states should maintain a loosely organized ability to call men together as needed to be ready to fight George, we call them Militias

and because there is no official government source of Black Powder Muskets we want each citizen to have their own musket ready when called to fight George

so we will call this the Second Amendment to our new Constitution
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:25am PT
Nut ... all due respects.

I think people who think like you have never been in a position where you need to defend your Family or Yourself.

I hope it never happens to you or your family.

It will absolutely change your mind.

The police are not here to protect you and your Family, they can not get there to help you. You must be able to help yourself.

And the whole argument about armed citizens being no match for the US Military.

On the surface, on paper, that is true... but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?

Simple people were able to overthrow the oppressive government of Nicaragua, who had tanks and planes with pistols.. and guts.

If you can remember that.

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:32am PT
but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks?

yes, absolutely

IF our civilian government orders our military to do that then yes, they are under orders to do whatever they are told

one needs to only remember Kent State, when college kids were protesting the Vietnam war and National Guard troops fired on them and killed and wounded them

WBraun

climber
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:35am PT
In America with the extreme prevalence of guns, too many people end up arguing with their guns..

Says the guy living in Norway, LOL.

Don't even bother responding, as it's just plain sarcasm ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:58am PT

Don't even bother responding, as it's just plain sarcasm ......

I'm just saying what Crimpergirl has said before using my own words. When there's guns everywhere, the chances are much higher than elswhere that something starting as quarelling ends up with a gun - escalation until one part fires a gun.

A simple fact...

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:18am PT
Norton.... Kent state went on for several seconds only... I think that after a few days of shooting armed civilians... the military types might change their minds because they would be shooting people who pretty much believe the same way.

And who would be issuing these "shoot to kill and grab the guns" orders?

Nancy Pelosi? Chuck Shumer? Hillery Clinton? Bernie Sanders??

or some other two-bit liberal.



Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:19am PT
What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer


where one lives makes a huge difference as regards death by firearm, particularly mass murder

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

----------


Guyman, what does the number of seconds it takes to kill have anything to do with our military killing civilians? Should the troops have used bow and arrows on the college kids instead of rifles so it took longer? The point is that yes our military will kill civilians
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:21am PT
Why don't they study the connection between psychoactive prescription drugs and mass shootings???

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:23am PT
Guyman, they have this thing called the internet and google

this took a half a second to answer your question

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=psychoactive+prescription+drugs+and+mass+shootings&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:47am PT
Guyman, what does the number of seconds it takes to kill have anything to do with our military killing civilians? Should the troops have used bow and arrows on the college kids instead of rifles so it took longer? The point is that yes our military will kill civilians

Yes they will... but give some time to think about what they are doing...

Norton... thanks for looking up something I have already looked into. You don't need to do that for me.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 11:58am PT
DMT: Yes the 2nd amendment or its legal interpretation must change to effect change- but society talking about it and forming a target vision for change must come first.

"do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?"
War is an ugly naked power grab by any and all means. Governments will do whatever is necessary to citizens to keep them in check. Normally they can be suppressed by simple means (tear gas, rubber bullets, disinformation campaigns, arrests, back-room torture of key individuals) so we don't often see the public violent escalations in the USA. But some examples of what governments do if their milder remedies are ineffective:

Some governments that have used chemical/biological weapons on their own rebelling citizens:
 Syria
 Iraq
 Afghanistan
 Vietnam
 Laos
 Germany
 pre-USSR (Tambov)
(extracted from http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/chembioattacks.html);

This is not considering other forms of extreme violence, like the Tiananmen Square Massacre in China, or USA National Guard shooting unarmed civilian protestors at Kent State (relatively minor), or the scorched earth policy during the USA Civil War (Sherman's Savannah campaign). Or the atrocities in Bosnia, Chechnia, pick any country in Africa, Central America, South America. I think escalating violence and abuse of power is more the rule than the exception. One might argue that the most basic goal of government is to transform a society from a collection of individuals where decisions are made based on violent force (i.e. "freedom from regulations"), to one where decisions are made based on established rules, and the rules are subject to change through non-violent methods. Using guns to change a government perpetuates a cycle where the government can't serve it's most basic function- to reduce physical violence experienced by the citizenry.

So I still completely disagree with guns justified as a means of balancing the power of our government. But I have shifted my perspective on guns for personal defense (after thinking about comments from 'fear' and 'guyman').

The reason is more of a game-theory one. Why do baby birds chirp loudly in a nest even though that behavior leads more often to their death by predators? The problem is when one bird starts, they all have to do it to get attention from mommy or they starve. It is a balance of conflicting threats. Our world of guns is sort of like that... as soon as the guns are unleashed on the world, safety would require that each person needs one for self-defense against others with guns, or they are at higher risk of dying. And yet the result of that dynamic is more overall dying! So I accept the tragedy that many people feel the need to defend themselves with guns, and that it should be a right, and an unavoidable consequence of this is more overall violence.

People who have had the good fortune to avoid violent encounters will try to optimize for a reduction of overall violence, while those who have experienced violence will be more likely to optimize for their personal and/or family safety. In other words, violence begets violence!

In this light, violence itself is a contagious disease that spreads, in action and in mindset. We need a societal mechanism to deal with this contagion. We have the CDC to help deal with the spread of health epidemics. What is the right agency to deal with the spread of the epidemic of violence?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 9, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
And the whole argument about armed citizens being no match for the US Military.

On the surface, on paper, that is true... but do you really think the folks in uniform are going to wipe out their fellow citizens? Shoot harm missiles into crowds of protesters? Run over folks with tanks? Drop Nuclear bombs?

The problem with that theory is that when the military coup comes the 2nd amendment crowd will not be fighting the military. They'll be cheering them on. And ratfinking on suspicious neighbors.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 9, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
But I have shifted my perspective

Man, are you some Nutty Liberal or what?

;^)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 9, 2017 - 01:20pm PT
...violence itself is a contagious disease that spreads...


No it's not.... and chosing to carry a firearm to defend yourself isn't a violent act. There are plenty of people who carry firearms every day, including cops, who've never drawn their gun.

Violence has it's root causes in every individual incident. It's not some nefarious plague as you describe it. Unfortunately the media only indoctrinates people into that viewpoint.

Most of the murders and violence in our own failed empire come downstream from the War on Drugs and all the false economies and exploitation that it creates from the thugs on the corner in Compton to the marines guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan.




10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 9, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
I think that after a few days of shooting armed civilians... the military types might change their minds because they would be shooting people who pretty much believe the same way.

Where do you come up with this crap?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
EDIT... To remove uncalled for negativity.

10B ... I get these ideas from my head and I sometimes trust my gut feelings.. .

The same gut feelings predicted the Trump Victory of 1 year ago.



August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 9, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Fet, the original amendment had a typo and an accidental word switch...




































Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 9, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
The 2nd Amendment was never intended to give citizens the right to fight against a tyrannical Government, that is complete BS.
Taking up arms against the Government is called treason no matter what you think about your Gov.

The 2nd amendment was added so the Government will not need a standing army by the way of a "well regulated militia", AND to give arms to Slave Patrols so they could intimidate blacks to stay in line.

We do not have these issues anymore, so we really have no reason to allow the right to bear arms.


If you take up arms against the Government the Police will take you out as fast as they can, if you live past that, the SWAT Team will kill you, if you stay alive even after all that fire power, the FBI will come and bomb your ass to high heaven.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
Guyman, than you agree we don't need guns.


Moose... you are a funny man, I never said that.

You don't need a gun Moose, if you don't wish to own one. This is a free country.

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
Violence has it's root causes in every individual incident. It's not some nefarious plague as you describe it.

I will make a subtle distinction in way of disagreeing with you:
1. Each incident has context and potential triggers for people.
2. Each person has a choice for how to act in the presence of the context and the stimuli

Some people are not equipped to make a conscious choice, and respond in a limbic manner (lizard-brain "fight or flight" if you will). But it is within the power of each individual to choose, through a combination of will-power exercised in the moment and appropriate training/preparation ahead of time to reorient the autonomous fight/flight responses to different stimuli, to become consciously aware of the pre-signals before conscious choice is lost in limbic response. This is what Anger Management classes try to do.

With this model, I still see the violence itself as a contagion. It is replicated when it becomes part of the programming of each individual and affects their future responses when survival instincts are triggered. In other words, the violence that one receives through sensory input (analogous to receiving a cold virus into the mucous membranes) is more likely to be replicated or spread to other people as soon as there is a weaker target to unload it. Sometimes if there is not a weaker target available, a person turns the stored energy of violence onto self, and sometimes it just hibernates until a weaker target presents itself, like children of the next generation or the employees of a new boss. Some people learn non-destructive ways of releasing the negative energy of violence, but not enough. And everyone has a different limit/capacity for absorbing and effectively dissipating the negative energy before they become conduits for passing it on.

Tying this back in to guns: violence is a contagion, and guns are a means of more efficient distribution of the contagion.


Edit: Just had a follow-up thought relating to violent TV shows (or sports or news for that matter). Violence in our media is extremely widespread, and many (including me) wonder about how that exposure to violence might increase our own violent tendencies. I am now wondering if it actually has, instead of or in addition to, the opposite effect: as a psychic release for our own stored negative energy- like we get to virtually unload that crap without having to physically unload it on to someone weaker or find another way of dissipating it.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:30pm PT
If violence is a contagion then why do we allow refugees from violent countries like El Salvador to come to America?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
refugees are fleeing violence
should we not give them refuge like a good humanitarians
or let them die at the hands of El Salvadorian authoritarian death squads
c wilmot

climber
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
El Salvador is far more dangerous than America

Don't be silly

Edit:

I am asking nutagain- if violence is a contagion- then why do we allow the alleged vectors of said contagion to settle here?

Are we not importing more problems?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
I think other countries should publicize the fact that America is a risk of Death by all the millions of guns in the hands of the mentally impaired, and they should not visit our country for their personal security.

If you get shot by a gun, you better have big bucks to pay all your medical bills, since the shooter is not responsible for your injuries.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
How about a bunch of mentally deranged Libtards screaming at the sky?

"New World Order" (Twice banned), you honey boo boo, do not have the depth of intellect to be a "libtard"

but likely are enough of a coward to be a "conservative"

don't like being called names? then stop calling other people names first, and grow up
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
Moose... I don't think your logic is working.

Have fun in the Stronghold.... get Jim to go to Zappa Dome.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 9, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
A friend emailed this youtube link to me today. A pleasant little Trump-mocking ditty for your pleasure.

Randy Rainbow, Desperate cheeto

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 9, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 9, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
El Salvador is far more dangerous than America

Have you been to El Salvador?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 9, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
I am asking nutagain- if violence is a contagion- then why do we allow the alleged vectors of said contagion to settle here?

I think that's a reasonable question and concern. My response might seem like a deflection but it will circle back to the main point.

One of the things I think our society should value and fund more: emotional education. I think overall this is getting better. When you start digging around, there are lots of programs (either government-sponsored or from NGOs) such as court-ordered Anger Management courses, Alcoholics Anonymous and related 12-step programs, Al-Anon, support for victims of violent crime and domestic violence programs. For example:
https://victims.ca.gov/resources.aspx
https://www.mocadsv.org/multi-language-materials/
http://www.ncdsv.org/ncd_linksimmigration.html

However, most of these programs are reactive, prescribed in response to some sort of personal or family crisis. We have no national strategy to be proactive about this thing that dramatically affects all of our daily lives. I think we should have more explicit emotional education as part of our public schools, at least sufficient to underpin healthy behavior for peaceful coexistence in a world populated by folks of very different values and beliefs. If we focus just on the behaviors without the emotional underpinning, it can lead to a sort of fakeness, a social veneer of "political correctness" and compliance for the sake of social norms without substance or empathy to address what people are really feeling. This is like an abscess over an emotional wound. We need a societal way to pick up the slack of what many people don't get in their families- how to develop a sense of self-love and identity, to contribute to a community and feel belonging and acceptance in a group, etc., and role-models and active teaching for compassion and empathy. If we neglect this part of our citizens' development, we create a ripe media for the infestation of violence.

So the issue is not just in keeping out the stored negative energy of violence that immigrants have experienced... the violence within our borders exacerbates the predicaments of refugees: language barriers, lack of money/home/support networks, ongoing stresses of families separated, perhaps a lack of relevant skills for earning a living in this environment, or at least language and soft-skill cultural barriers to gaining employment leveraging their areas of expertise.

The emotional education resources that we all need can be extended to accommodate the stress of the refugee predicament in general, and coping with violent experiences in particular.

I found this example of a program that helps with the logistical things for refugees, to reduce ongoing sources of stress for food/shelter/clothing, community resources, gaining employable skills, etc. They operate around the world and have many local centers in USA:
https://www.rescue.org/united-states/los-angeles-ca#how-does-the-irc-help-refugees-and-immigrants-in-los-angeles

I'm not familiar with the organization, but I couldn't see anything specifically about coping with violence or emotional issues in general. Maybe in the hierarchy of needs, food/shelter/clothing and the ability to earn money to get these things are easier to understand and more obviously pressing needs. But this seems to create a vacuum of unmet needs for the emotional stuff and it is a risk factor sowing the seeds for future violence in our country.

Dialing in more specifically to the original question:

We need to target the contagion, not the people carrying it.

Perhaps because we have so little societal understanding of the disease of violence, what causes it and how it spreads and how to manage it, that we fear it and confuse the contagion with the vector. It's one thing to say we are killing mosquitoes to stop Malaria or Dengue Fever. It's another to say we are killing humans or quarantining/incarcerating them in camps to block the inflow of violence to our country.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
I think we should have more explicit emotional education as part of our public schools, at least sufficient to underpin healthy behavior for peaceful coexistence in a world populated by folks of very different values and beliefs. If we focus just on the behaviors without the emotional underpinning, it can lead to a sort of fakeness, a social veneer of "political correctness" and compliance for the sake of social norms without substance or empathy to address what people are really feeling. This is like an abscess over an emotional wound. We need a societal way to pick up the slack of what many people don't get in their families- how to develop a sense of self-love and identity, to contribute to a community and feel belonging and acceptance in a group, etc., and role-models and active teaching for compassion and empathy. If we neglect this part of our citizens' development, we create a ripe media for the infestation of violence.

Couldn't agree more.
I've been in education most of my life and have worked directly with youngsters for going on 31 years. I've been around a lot of this world and work with a diverse population (currently we have 54 nationalities in our school) in many of those countries.

The only thing I'll add is that I believe that virtually no religions of the world actually teach this and IMHO should and can be a big part in this effort. It may be the one thing those institutions can do to significantly make a difference in making this world a better place.

Thanks Nut for well thought out posts.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 10, 2017 - 11:33am PT
Hey! just what we need, a stealth bomber to bomb goatherds:
It is here that Northrop is building the Air Force’s new B-21 bomber, a stealthy bat-winged jet that is being designed to slip behind any adversary’s air defense system and deliver devastating airstrikes for decades to come. The Pentagon is aiming to buy 100 of the bombers by the mid-2030s for at least $80 billion, though the exact amount is classified.

$80 billion my ass. $800 billion more likely. Should work well with the 1.5 trillion they want to give to billionaires.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 10, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
Moose's chart appears to be an accurate reflection of how mass murderers are categorized by the media, what exactly is the problem with it?
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 10, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
Moose's chart appears to be an accurate reflection of how mass Nortloons are categorized by the media, what exactly is the problem with it?

Care to respond......L00ns????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 11, 2017 - 12:21am PT
Returning to the forum topic, I am astonished by the traction taking place on the issue of sexual assault. I am also amazed at how quickly it is transitioning over to the political realm.

The issues involving Trump seemed to not be relevant, but the allegations now are already crashing careers (as they should).

This Roy Moore issue turns out to be huge. The Alabama conservatives are taking the line of defense that Moore did nothing. But if he did, he did nothing different than Jesus. REALLY? That's the defense? Are these learned conservatives wearing overalls and holding pitchforks while they're saying that? The loss of that seat gives the GOP a 1-vote majority.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 11, 2017 - 12:49am PT
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 11, 2017 - 06:21am PT
Moore supporters pulling the Jesus card was definitely a new low. Those kind of zealots are really scary.

If it was a liberal, they would be screaming bloody murder.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 11, 2017 - 06:34am PT
The loss of that seat gives the GOP a 1-vote majority.

IMO, the people, in Alabama will not vote for a democrat. The people in Alabama share the same feelings as Moore.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 11, 2017 - 08:33am PT
Putting aside if there is any Russian collusion in the election or not, Putin and his pals in the Kremlin must be laughing at the state of America, with the political and societal divisiveness. With the obvious polarization. Some will say democracy is about compromise and consensus, if so then democracy seems to be dying in the US. Across the political spectrum and indeed social spectrum the gulf is widening. Will there be increasing violence in the streets regarding protests?

They must be chuckling at the fact that Trump believes (as he would) Putin over the US intelligence agencies, and Putin and pals probably figure that any hand the US may have had in the break up of the Soviet Union is now coming back to slap the US in the face.

They must be delighted that any real or imagined Russian influence is indeed influencing the state of America.

When some Americans are chanting USA, Trump and Putin in the same breath, where do their allegiances lie?

The times are truly changing.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 11, 2017 - 10:32am PT
The people in Alabama share the same feelings as Moore.

Typical bigoted statement by 10-.

What adick
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 11, 2017 - 04:20pm PT

Oh, and what ever happened to all those women who accused Trump of sexual abuse/misconduct and wanted to sue him, when he initially decided to run for POTUS? Where are they now???

As I understand it, the time is coming, when you will know the answer to that and more that anyone with a sense of decency would ever want to know, about the depraved cruelty of men. Word is that Mueller has six sealed indictments on DT. Also, that each and every federal crime is also going to be charge via NYS Attorney General(and thus unpardonable)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 11, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Oh, and what ever happened to all those women who accused Trump of sexual abuse/misconduct and wanted to sue him, when he initially decided to run for POTUS? Where are they now???

in court, ongoing sexual harassment lawsuit against the Pussy Grabber in Chief

we don't how many others he has paid off to be quiet over the years

you dumb sob
WBraun

climber
Nov 11, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
Nothing gonna happen.

All will be swept under the rug.

They never do sh!t .....
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 11, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
And yet new world order 2, there's a BIG difference between the libs and you. When the allegations came out against all those folks, the liberals condemned them. We didn't compare them to the Holy Family or continue to defend them. When they came out against Trump, the Republicans like you elected him to the White House. See the difference?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 11, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
NWO is like the disgruntled monkey at the zoo. Try not to make eye contact or they'll throw sh!t at you.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 11, 2017 - 08:25pm PT
Nortloon says...

in court, ongoing sexual harassment lawsuit against the Pussy Grabber in Chief
 cite these cases Nortloon. They don't exist.

we don't how many others he has paid off to be quiet over the years
-You know why you will never know? B/C you are a washed-up old loozer opining as someone who actually knows WTF is going on. Nothing could be further from the truth. You are a liar and a tool. Just like when you said you read the entire ACA. Clownish liar maximus.

you dumb sob
 You are clearly effective at projecting a myriad of your own broken personality traits. Some likely physical at the core. Had you not been a coward your entire life you may have amounted to "something".
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 12, 2017 - 09:08am PT
rape, like murder, is not only acceptable in the bible, but is in fact ordered by god as punishment for various transgressions
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Roy Moore’s Behavior Is Perfectly Biblical

All horsesh!t as these so-called Christians (poseurs) just interpret the sh!t out of that book to fit their own agendas ......
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2017 - 09:37am PT
He IS a hypocrite and idiot .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 12, 2017 - 09:52am PT
All this stupid circus is provided to disract the sheep. Bleeeeaaat.... bleeaat. Vegas had too many gaping holes so Weinstein was roasted on the spit for you gapers. A fat repugnant man who had been doing the same thing for decades suddenly in the spotlight. Don't look at who's in the light, look to who's behind it and ask why now?
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 12, 2017 - 10:26am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 12, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Roy Moore has made his choice. You can call him disgusting or vile or sexist, but don’t use the word hypocrite. Moore is living the script."
As Shakespeare wrote: "the Devil can quote Scripture for his purpose". It's low hanging fruit to cite the Old Testament as evidence of how f'ed up Christians are. Cite me some instances in the New Testament that support such conduct; then I'd concede that your point might have more validity.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 12, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Vegas had too many gaping holes

oh really? do tell us about all these "gaping holes"
think the Vegas mass murder was a "set up" like the 1969 landing?

so Weinstein was roasted on the spit for you gapers. A fat repugnant man who had been doing the same thing for decades suddenly in the spotlight. Don't look at who's in the light, look to who's behind it and ask why now?

no one roasted Weinstein, he did it too himself, just like Trump did and many others

as for your naive questions as to "why" women are reporting things, no conspiracy,
women have had enough keeping quiet, and when they read about other women coming forward recently they feel braver, enough to come out with their own accounts of sexual molestation and harassment - what part of this concept do you not understand
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 12, 2017 - 11:19am PT
Conservative Christians often proclaim that the Quran encourages marriage and molestation of girls who are too young for consent. But it’s rare that they take to the airwaves proclaiming that the Bible does the same. By citing the Bible and Christian tradition in defense of Roy Moore, that is exactly what they have done. And their arguments have merit.

Rape in the Bible is a violation—not against a woman but against her male owner.

it will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Certainly, Alabama is a GOP stronghold. But it is not as though there are no democrats. What this may come down to, is turnout. I imagine that continuing revelations will also have an impact.

Moore is the worst possible, short of a convicted felon. If elected, the Senate will do everything possible to bury him on a back bench.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 12, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
He IS a hypocrite and idiot .....

Yep. Moore and Nortloon. Two peas in a pod for opposite reasons.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 13, 2017 - 09:37am PT

Appeal Offers Hope for Newtown Families in Suit Against Gun Companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/12/nyregion/appeal-offers-hope-for-newtown-families-in-suit-against-gun-companies.html?emc=edit_ur_20171112&nl=new-york-today&nlid=72321538&te=1&_r=0
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 13, 2017 - 10:22am PT
So stupid... Just wait until we can sue Anheuser-Busch for every DUI murder.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2017 - 10:39am PT
Monolith, I interpret your response as a defense of the principle that creators of substances/devices that are used to hurt other people should not be held liable. Is there a line in the sand somewhere?

Can I start a company selling grenades out of my truck next to Walmart? What about bazookas? What about model rockets or drones with home-made plastic explosives? What about dirty fission bombs?

If you think these should be illegal... why? Because they cause harm? Because the devices are outlawed? Something else?

Is it enough to invent a weak reason for something to be used other than for premeditated murder or property damage? Hey, it's just for entertainment. You know, like for parties out on BLM land.

I don't have my personal view of various gun issues settled, but I do think that excessive manufacture of deadly weapons that flood the market is part of the problem. Companies are pursuing a profit motive to capitalize on the "needs" of their consumers- but as a national policy, I think these needs should be treated as a pathology to be treated or cured (e.g. counseling for fear and powerlessness, job training to gain marketable skills, etc.) , rather than a justifiable need to be satisfied in an open market that makes us all less safe. Actually if I follow this line of argument in other areas aside from guns- it would destroy our modern economy and consumerism in general :)

I do think equipment vendors should be liable- that is a mechanism to hold the manufacturers accountable for the societal costs of their products, and then they can pass on the costs to their consumers to reduce the number of such weapons created and purchased in the future.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 13, 2017 - 10:52am PT
Nutagain- Rap music would be terribly expensive if that happened

The negative societal cost of their product is enormous
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 13, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
my vote for best come back to another poster who has upset your attempt at logic

is to take a good look at their username and play around with the letters in the reply!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
A path to blocking abortions:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/13/563737297/supreme-court-takes-on-case-about-free-speech-and-abortion

Consider this in the context of:
1. Defunding services that offer abortions, so they are physically difficult for poor people to reach such a service.
2. Private services cropping up in their place with coaching for keeping the babies and no mention of solutions that involve abortion.

Without rehashing the whole right to life/right to choose debate, one thing seems pretty clear: women suffer most of the consequences when men and women together conceive an unwanted child. We don't need more ways for society to hold back women more than men for the same "offense."

Women who are financially struggling don't shop around for the clinic that most aligns with their ideology- they are seeking the first help, maybe the only help, they can get. As such, clinics that don't discuss the range of options available are preying on women's vulnerability and consigning them to lifetime commitments in order to promote an ideology.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 13, 2017 - 02:47pm PT
China has once again prevailed in the biannual list of the world's fastest supercomputers. The country not only claimed the top two fastest supercomputer systems, it beat the United States in the overall number of systems ranked.

Does this mean China will be the first to be over-run by A.I.? Will they answer the "MIND" question before everybody else?

The Top500 report that ranks the world's speediest super machines sees China's Sunway TaihuLight maintain its lead at the top of the list for the fourth time; it boasts a performance of 93.01 petaflops. China's Tianhe-2, also known as the Milky Way-2, remains at the number two spot with three times less the performance at 33.86 petaflops.

Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 13, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
fear:
Just wait until we can sue Anheuser-Busch for every DUI murder.
Beer do not kill people.
People who drink beer kill people.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Nov 14, 2017 - 09:27pm PT
Looks like Werner is right. US supports ISIS.

http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-members-secretly-escape-raqqa-with-weapons-ammo-us-knew-2017-11
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 14, 2017 - 11:56pm PT
If this forum is anything to go by, America is sick indeed. And I am no better.

I am nothing but a hound dog, and you are no friend of mine.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 15, 2017 - 07:54am PT
Not as sinister as claimed. We may not like it, but those who actually have to go in and clear out ISIS get to make the decisions.

We didn't want anyone to leave," Dillon said. "But this goes to the heart of our strategy, 'by, with and through' local leaders on the ground. It comes down to Syrians – they are the ones fighting and dying, they get to make the decisions regarding operations.
red'sea

Trad climber
lexington
Nov 15, 2017 - 09:35am PT
Patrick,
america is very afraid. and as climbers,
we both know what fear gestates:

horrid conduct. a loss of poise and presence.
frantic gestures, ugly in their expression;
in vain attempts to regain stasis.

we as a country were raised upon gross excess.
we had everything we wanted, in over abundance.

thus we failed to develop any substance.
and now, as an adolescent culture,
we find ourself encountering challenges
bigger than our immature collective mind can process.

so, what you and the rest of the world sees is a country
stumbling through stiff growing pains.

many of our citizens (i.e. republicans) are committed
to the cheap and easy path.
because the uphill battle of compassion, selflessness and sacrifice
requires backbone.

which most republicans lack.

they shout and shimmer in an attempt to
distract the audience, which works for short periods (i.e. 4 f*#king years of t-rump) but eventually
their hollow song dies.

so hang tight, Patrick. Hang tight, world
america will be right back, after this word from our sponsor.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 15, 2017 - 12:24pm PT


Keep all but the 'good' climbers out, but what about them damn melting glaciers?



[Click to View YouTube Video]


Many, many, many billions

Looking for his head, nobody had the heart to tell him to look in his ass

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Nov 16, 2017 - 02:24pm PT
Why do the alt-right posters start a new thread for every biased tidbit they hear on alt.conspiracy.bs ?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 17, 2017 - 11:09am PT
In Post-Weinstein Era, Trump Sexual Assault Accusers Await His Downfall


Three of the 16 women who have accused Trump of some form of sexual assault spoke to People on Thursday. The women discussed what it’s been like for them as more and more men in power are being publicly condemned for accusations of sexual misconduct in the wake of the #MeToo movement.

Former “Apprentice” contestant Summer Zervos is suing Trump for defamation after he publicly called her allegations fake. Zervos has accused Trump of groping and forcibly kissing her on several occasions in 2007. She served him a subpoena last month requesting all documents from his campaign that pertain to “any woman alleging that Donald J. Trump touched her inappropriately.” The judge in Zervos’ case is expected to decide before the end of the year whether the suit should move ahead.
hp
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
The growing appreciation of FARA might be a foot in the door to campaign finance reform in general:
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/17/563737981/a-toothless-old-law-could-have-new-fangs-thanks-to-robert-mueller

This quote especially resonates with me:

"Americans have a right to know who is acting in the United States to influence the U.S. government or public on behalf of foreign principals," said acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security Dana Boente. "The Department of Justice is committed to enforcing FARA and expects compliance with the law by all entities engaged in specified activities on behalf of any foreign principal, regardless of its nationality."

Now if we can get that principle extended to not just foreign agents, but also to multi-national corporations, because that is another class of entities whose interests may not coincide with American interests. Even within America, we should have more transparency about who is promoting different agendas. We have a right to voter anonymity, but the moment we pay to influence others, I believe our right to anonymity is surrendered.

I would also like to see:
1. Mass media advertising (Internet, radio, TV, etc.) requires a license to pay for advertising.

2. To maintain an advertiser license, advertisers must:
 Publicly disclose detailed balance sheets and income statements
 Disclose the identity of all funding sources, including traces through intermediary corporations until contribution percentages can be allocated to individual humans and publicly traded companies.
 Upon discovery that any of the contributing funds are tainted by companies with hidden ownership or beneficiaries, the funds must be forfeited to the regulating agency (not returned to the source).
(Tricky part still to figure out: "ownership" is not enough... must find beneficial interest. A rich shadowy figure can give money to a lawyer, and the lawyer opens a shell company and looks like the owner on paper. Need some mechanism to further trace funds, put "seasoning" requirements like mortgage lenders do when they are qualifying the borrower source of funds. But very rich people can afford to wait out and circumvent the laws intended to prevent this.... Also need to ensure these laws don't backfire and enable politically-motivated false accusations of hidden beneficiaries that cause the funds to be confiscated. Solutions?)
 Disclose all expenditures to the level of explicit candidates, political races, ballot initiatives, or political parties, and/or socio-political issue

3. An investigative agency (like an FBI white collar crime division) identifies questionable ownership, e.g. where nominal owner contributions do not reconcile with the owner's income as declared on USA personal tax returns over a period of years (in the case of USA citizens), net worth, lifestyle, etc. subject to increasing scrutiny as discrepancies appear.

4. Mass media (Internet/radio/TV/newspaper/etc) entities that receive some threshold percentage of income from advertising must file reports of licensed funding for political activity, disclosing the category of advertisement and the registration number of the funding source. No political advertising can be accepted from non-licensed sources. Independent watchdog groups can tally/estimate the posted advertisements and reconcile that with public declarations of advertising volume tied to registered sources.

People are clever and will find ways to circumvent any system if the reward is high enough, but I think this would revolutionize democracy in America in a good way.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
Trump did nothing for detained UCLA players in China, LaVar Ball says

“Everybody wants to make it seem like he helped me out,” the father of LiAngelo Ball said. LiAngelo and two other student athletes were arrested on shoplifting charges while the basketball team was overseas for a game. They have been suspended indefinitely from playing.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
Trump was really playing up his part in releasing the 3 knuckle heads...NPD behavior...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
Wa Post:

Perspective

Foreign Service leadership being ‘decapitated’ and ‘depleted at a dizzying speed’
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 18, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
Walking while Black: documentation of illegal police activity:

https://features.propublica.org/walking-while-black/jacksonville-pedestrian-violations-racial-profiling/?utm_campaign=comms&utm_source=comms_outreach&utm_medium=email&utm_term=pedestrians
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2017 - 02:07pm PT
Why are Police in the USA so Terrified?

they are nowadays trained to be afraid, afraid of civilians

civilians who are armed even better than they are, thanks to black powder muskets being widely available now

they are trained to use the rational "I want to go home to my family" as the excuse for I had to kill him because he was reaching in his pocket and i thought it was for a gun

because the US Armed Forces have freely given military grade weapons including tanks to police forces all over the country

better not be driving while black, its bad enough to be pulled over while white
WBraun

climber
Nov 18, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
St00pid drunk politard brainwashed Luzzers ^^^^ blather away daily bullsh!t they really know nothing about ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 18, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
Werner, it keeps ‘em off the streets.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 18, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
St00pid drunk politard brainwashed Luzzers ^^^^ blather away daily bullsh!t they really know nothing about ......

You're off the mark man.

The L00ns words are meaningful.

Norton's read the ACA....several times??

Norton is here all day posting links.

He's the source brah.

Don't fight it lol!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Werner...I think it's spelled Loozzers...? thanks Rotbrain..
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 18, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
NutAgain!:

The growing appreciation of FARA might be a foot in the door to campaign finance reform in general:
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/17/563737981/a-toothless-old-law-could-have-new-fangs-thanks-to-robert-mueller
It looks like a typical witch hunt to me.

FARA is used so infrequently and inconsistently. For example RT was asked to register as a foreign agent, but BBC, Al Jazeera, France 24 and others were not.
It looks like Mueler is desperate because of his attempt to use FARA instead of more common regulation.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
On the one hand I agree that it's a "witch hunt" in that much of the public and political support for the process is partisan-based. However, at the center of the hunt are fundamental issues of right and wrong, plainly unethical behavior, that perhaps are not so uncommon but they should be. I am glad that there is a big deal being made out of holding people accountable. I'm still a big fan of a principle I learned by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. A guilty person shifting focus to what other guilty people have done is toddler-level misdirection.

That said, I would like to see the drive toward increasing transparency and accountability in our government be more of a shared values thing across party lines, rather than a partisan weapon. We've reached the point of caring more about which team wins than how much they cheated to get there. Ultimately the fault lies with all of us as voters because election results show what issues concern voters and what candidate and party behaviors lead to victory. That is the most damning thing about our country. Our behaviors and beliefs and values (subject to manipulation by others) have directly led to our present government.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 19, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
Couple of hours ago there was a weak ass Crankloon post

Vanished..Gone again

What's with this serial post-deleter-pussy coward.

Lots of peeps here have noticed this..no?

RottunJoany...what's up with your coward boo?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 19, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
drF

ST's Nabob of Negativity!

Who occasionally posts on climbing threads & wants to be one of the ST folks, even though, no-one here knows him &:

He's our


Nabob of Negativity!

Hey drF, I've been missing your schist in my ST life.

I can hardly wait for your,


Nabob of Negativity!

lame retort.


drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 19, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Fritzeee ol'boy

I'm plenty positive.

Just clowning you tools who live here on the politard posts 7 days/wk.

Why are you always so butthurt? You are an intardnet superhero.

The on-line coward forum is the only place you can talk like this..or even have a life. It's OK to have a fantasy ol'boy.

I just wondered again why the pussy Crankl00n posts/deletes/lies/etc???

Sigghhhhhhhhhhhhh ;-(((
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 19, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
drF. Your half-assed apology from your last post, is not accepted.

Nov 19, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Fritzeee ol'boy

I'm plenty positive.

Just clowning you tools who live here on the politard posts 7 days/wk.

Why are you always so butthurt? You are an intardnet superhero.

The on-line coward forum is the only place you can talk like this..or even have a life. It's OK to have a fantasy ol'boy.

I just wondered again why the pussy Crankl00n posts/deletes/lies/etc???

drF! You have gone from just being a ST troll to being a ST Bully.

I'm sure that makes you feel good, but your nasty ways, this time around are soon over, ASSHOLE!

A Snipe of drF's recent ST bullying.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 20, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster was unsparingly critical of President Donald Trump at a July dinner with Oracle CEO Safra Catz, according to a report BuzzFeed News published on Monday.

*McMaster called Trump an “idiot,” a “dope” and said he has the intelligence of a “kindergartner,” BuzzFeed reported, citing five unnamed sources with knowledge of McMaster’s and Catz’s conversation.

A sixth unnamed source told BuzzFeed News that McMaster made similar comments directly to the source in private, and said Trump did not have the smarts to understand the subjects the National Security Council deals with.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
Are you content to let a single entity own access to all information beyond your direct vision and hearing? FCC (for the last year) has been helping that to happen when one of their main jobs should be to protect us from it. #draintheswamp


Earlier this year, automated attacks (who stands to profit from that?) tried to distract from the public outcry in favor of neutrality.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/a-bot-is-flooding-the-fccs-website-with-fake-anti-net-neutrality-comments/


Now bow down to your Internet provider monopoly, the gateway to information in the modern world:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/11/20/what-to-know-about-the-fccs-upcoming-plan-to-undo-its-net-neutrality-rules/


Don't think you can turn to TV or radio or print for different perspectives than your monopoly Internet provider is ok with you seeing:
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/house-democrats-seek-probe-of-fcc-chairmans-treatment-of-sinclair-20171113-01125



Go on the record and be counted against it:
https://www.fcc.gov/rulemaking/most-active-proceedings

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 20, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
Pretty good explanation of the strategy of the GOP "tax bill":

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/20/republican-tax-cuts-democrats
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 20, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
Perhaps this issue has been raised in one or more of the previous 4,000+ posts. I've dropped in for a look from time to time, but haven't read every post, but I think this is important.

Not just in itself, but to get this thread back on the rails that Nutagain launched it on -- i.e. instead of the usual "You're an as#@&%e." "No, you're an as#@&%e", maybe it's worth thinking about some serious issues that we'll be facing after the noise generated by the healthcare shrieking-match subsides.

One of which is the massive unemployment that will result from the current drive to replace human labor with much-more-efficient automated processes. Whether you like it or don't like it, there is probably nothing you can do to stop it. Self-driving trucks and aircraft will be much safer and much cheaper to operate without humans at the controls. Warehouses will be far more efficient when robots do the lifting and moving. Grocery stores have already begun to move to human-free checkout...

And those occupations -- truck driving, warehouse working, store clerking -- are what keeps a huge number of people employed. What is going to happen when they are all laid off?

And once they're gone, your job may well be next.

We are on the brink of one of the biggest societal changes in history, and hardly anyone is paying attention.
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
What is going to happen when they are all laid off?

It's already happened for years.

You, modern people, are st00pid insane and blind as bats.

You've been doing nothing but killing humanity all while masquerading yourselves as advanced.

St00pid people, you're nothing but sdt00pid brainwashed polished puffed up cavemen killing yourselves.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 20, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
Werner, you have posted the same meaningless garbage in over 27,000 posts. You have about three basic "Stoopid American" posts in your repertoire. We all know them by heart and many of us are completely sick of them.

Grow up.

Make a meaningful contribution or shut up.
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
You grow up fool.

You're the one who created this mess .....
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 20, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
Fritzee you haven't addressed Crankl00ns constant deleting of his bully posts. Boo Hoo

What do you think man? You like it huh?

What does his boo RJ 'feel'??

Crankl00n is a bully too. Aren't you butthurt by his condescending sh*t vibe....or do you readily accept him....always?

I understand why you 'sighhh' so much

Reel it in ol'boy
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 20, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
^^^^^

SuperTopo Shartstain, STFU.

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 20, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
Probably the same psycho


Member profile information for PotatoHead is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.

Public Profile Information:*
Nickname: PotatoHead
From: Nunya,ID
Favorite Type of Climbing: Trad climber
Member-to-Member Messages: Disabled
c wilmot

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:01am PT
The age old remedy for 'young people with not enough to do' is war. I think we all know it.

And opiates. Not only does it keep them high and subservant- it causes many to overdose and die

Which provides a steady source of fresh young organs ready to be transplanted into aging decrepit boomer bodies. A win win for the boomer gen

If you can't exploit em- kill em
TLP

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:32am PT
Regardless of which Horseman is the cause, what is being talked about is a reduction in human population. If we collectively put our oversized brains to it, in theory we could decide to just start on this reduction gradually and peacefully, by reducing birth rates. For one example, one direct and consistent result of improving general education, specifically of girls, is a reduction in how many children they have. It just happens (many well researched peer reviewed publications). Along with that would be policies that energetically support other population growth rate factors wherever those rates are clearly unsustainable.

It is essential to recognize explicitly that "US national policy issues" are inseparable from global issues, and of those the biggest ones are population and climate, closely followed by water (quantity and quality).
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:34am PT
Thanks Dingus. Lots of food for thought there. I'll try to post tonight when I'm done work.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2017 - 09:46am PT
I’m sooooo ready for a robotic plumber!
Will she/it have the expected sartorial shortcomings?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 21, 2017 - 10:28am PT
Innovators will continue to innovate and create disruptive technologies as they have for the past 20,000 years. From papyrus, to the cotton gin, to fusion, it's all happened with blinding speed relative to our short time here.

Bright good people with some kind of work ethic will always be in demand who will seize those technologies and leverage them in productive/profitable ways.

Bright functioning Sociopaths will also attempt to control those technologies and leverage them in destructive/manipulative/profitable ways.

The majority, the dull and woolly flock get fleeced, eaten, and sometimes just killed for sport, over and over.

Same as it's ever been, nobody gets out alive.




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2017 - 11:03am PT
Speaking of innovators, the French owner of Evian and Volvic (wazzup with THAT name?) bottled waters, Danone, just announced they will start selling ‘extra-hydrating’ water sucked from the ocean 3000’ down off of Kauai and boy, howdy, are they gonna charge for it! Three times the price of Evian!

INNOVATE Y’ALL!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 21, 2017 - 11:13am PT
From xcon's link

For example, we could say that Republican leadership in Congress and the executive branch, over the past thirty years, has generally led to:

1) Foreign wars propped up by lies and motivated by the desire to steal resources.
2) Attempts to reduce many government welfare-type programs which are genuinely beneficial.
3) A tendency to encourage/allow increased environmental destruction.
4) An alliance with the Christian conservatives which can have some unpleasant results.
5) Collusion with big business/ultra-rich to loot the taxpayer via vastly bloated government contracts.
6) Deregulation and even encouragement of certain business practices with negative overall results, for example predatory consumer lending.
7) Expansion of the fascist police state, exemplified by the Patriot Act.
8) Economic exploitation of other countries, especially emerging markets, via the IMF and other underhanded tactics (see John Perkins’ Confessions of an Economic Hit Man or Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine.)
9) This often leads to or is accompanied by various incursions into national politics, up to and including assassination of political leaders. See for example the various color-coded “Revolutions” throughout the former Soviet states, or the U.S.’s long history of meddling in Latin America:
10) Aggressive attempts to disadvantage U.S. working classes via lax immigration policies and promotion of “outsourcing” to foreign countries.
11) The phony “War on Drugs” (the CIA is the U.S.’s largest drug importer), combined with a vast expansion of the prison-industrial complex, providing a huge resource of prison slave labor for U.S. companies.
12) Bank bailouts and other outright looting on the vastest scale.


The Republicans are more of Organized crime party than governing party
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 21, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
I think we humans do value human labor, immensely. I mean, look at the price of a fine house hand built by craftspersons; we value it enormously. The price tags reflect that value.

And what, one-tenth of one percent of the population lives in a fine house hand built by crafts person?

When robots take over the current jobs, there might (and I"m not even convinced of this) be jobs that either take human imagination or jobs that could be done better by robot but at least some people, some of the time, prefer to be done by humans. A live musical with human actors.

But I don't see why we should think there will be enough of these jobs to go around and if the supply of people wanting to do these jobs way outstrip the demand, they won't pay anything.

Good social policy could make a big difference. I don't see any reason that this country is suddenly going to get its political act together to generate good social policy.

My $0.02 worth...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
Has anyone heard of a better idea than a baseline income for all as a way to deal with increasing automation and job scarcity?

A few key questions:
1. Who actually does pay for it?
2. Will it kill off motivation and remove all human-based sources of skill?


#1
In principle, the payers should be those who own everything as a result of automation-accelerated wealth consolidation. In practice, this will be difficult because different countries will adopt rules at different times, and companies and rich people will shift around their assets to avoid taxation. Even if they only get away with it for a few years, countries will be desperate for revenue and might fail before they can crack down. Or, they get so desperate they cut deals with more tax loopholes to attract the tax payers back... then it's a race to the bottom with every country bowing down to the rich folks to give them the cheapest rates, and people across the world suffer.

I don't see a clear solution, other than national governments asserting their authority now while they still can. In a few years, private entities will have more bargaining power vs governments and the governments won't be in a position to make demands. Right now corporations are favored because of bribery and human weakness among governing agencies. In the future it will be just the raw power of the corporations to outlast governments, regardless of whether or not our governments have greedy/weak individuals.

For individuals, the only hope will be to not depend on the government or any hand-outs. Will gardening skills and self-sufficiency be enough with roaming bands of militias/thugs and no government money to pay for law enforcement? Maybe "Water World" style floating fortress is a good idea, trying to hide in the vast expanse of the seas.


#2
In principle, working people will still be in demand for things that are not performed better/cheaper by machines. Supply/demand will create an incentive for a select group of ambitious and talented people. In other endeavors, it's probably better to have people doing things when they feel a passion for it rather than going through the motions doing a mediocre job to collect a paycheck as they do today.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
In Alaska, citizens of the state receive a portion of proceeds on oil.

Perhaps that's a place to start. Instead of awarding contracts to private companies to extract minerals in the country, cut timber, reroute water, and such, for their own use and profit, maybe a portion of what is used gets paid out across the board to every citizen.

I am sure not smart enough to understand this level of economics, and neither are the majority of us, but it seems to me that there are definitely those who have their fingers on the scale when it comes to weighing out what's fair. Those people tend to have connections with those that decide various components to our laws. Maybe that connection needs to be put in check, if not outright severed.

And maybe certain high level positions ought to actually be committees instead of one person. A sort of mini 3-part government within each of those to do a checks and balances. Maybe citizens, upon reaching the age of majority, would have to serve on these committees, kind of like Israel puts each young adult to serve in the military.
WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
I don't see a clear solution,

I already said you people are blind as bats.

You can't see a clear solution because you don't have a real clear clue the purpose of life.

Robot consciousness comes from the clueless brainwashing of gross materialism consciousness.

But you modern people are know it alls with your linear nonsense of advancement of knowledge.

Life doesn't work that way.

That's why you people all think you're machines.

So st00pid, ..... and tough sh!t Ghost,

as you modern people have become sterile machine conscious fools completely asleep at the wheel of life .....

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
In Alaska, citizens of the state receive a portion of proceeds on oil.

That ship is sinking, fast. The oil is quickly running out, the state has been spending like it would last forever and, besides, that piddly check doesn’t go far up there. It’s good for a few benders or yer intardnet service.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 21, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
Crankster...Turn on the de-coding machine...Another message and clue has been transmitted...rotbrain
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
You can't see a clear solution because you don't have a real clear clue the purpose of life.

So, Werner, instead of the above abusive bullsh#t, why don't you contribute something positive? Can _you_ see a clear solution? If so, why don't you talk about it instead of just hurling another "stoopid fools" comment at us?

Same for having a clue about the purpose of life. Why not share with us? Why not make a genuine effort to contribute? Do you actually believe that anyone on Supertopo wants to see another "stoopid americans" post from you?

Nobody does. That shtick got old years ago. Now it's just irritating.

WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
Robot consciousness comes from the clueless brainwashing of gross materialism consciousness.

You are clear whiner Ghost who wants everything watered down and distilled to your biased preference.

Just skip my stuff and be done with it as you clearly live in a fixed rut ......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
Don't listen to me Werner. Ask around. See if you can find anyone who thinks your "stoopid American" or "gross materialist" posts provide anything of value on Supertopo.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:41pm PT

That ship is sinking, fast. The oil is quickly running out, the state has been spending like it would last forever and, besides, that piddly check doesn’t go far up there. It’s good for a few benders or yer intardnet service.

Oil is not running out in Alaska, there is an abundance of oil in Alaska. The problem with Alaska and the reason that ship has sailed is lower oil prices and easier access to it in other locations.
WBraun

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
Oil, as it is used in this day and age, is NOT conducive to the survival of mankind.

The consciousness is being raised and that is the real reason it will be phased out eventually.

It's selfish st00pid criminals that try and keep the world dependent on it .....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
Bat rock, I worked up there. Production started decreasing only about 8 or 10 years after Prudhoe came on line. Kuparuk gave it a little bump but it is now about half of what it was at its peak.
Oops, I'm wrong - it's less than that now:

"The Trans-Alaska Pipeline System (TAPS) is operating at only one-third of its capacity, and there has been a 39 percent decline in the past 10 years. Furthermore, production has dropped 68 percent since hitting a peak of 2 million barrels per day in 1988. It currently produces about 600,000 barrels per day.". Alaska Oil and Gas Association
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Reilly.. If they re-pumbed it with smaller pipe the capacity would double...rj
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
Reilly, production levels have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of obtainable oil in the ground. Multiple massive discoveries in the last 2 years. My buddy is a petro geologist for a big company on the slope. His expert opinion based on his insider knowledge of recent discoveries and a few decades of experience (as opposed to your ignorant assertions that flow forth like liquid poo from my ass after food poisoning at a Vegas buffet) is that there will be oil coming out of the earth in Alaska for at least another 50 years. More depending on the fate of ANWR etc.
As for the Permanant fund- it pays for my heating bill for 12 months, and then some.
We all know you view yourself as a hyper intelligent genius who’s command of every subject is absolute, but please dude.... your di ck is hanging out of your pants while you preach, and we’re all laughing at it right now. Do us a favor and zip up and shut up.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/10/investing/alaska-oil-discovery-repsol-spain/index.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
What is the current kick back for Alaskan's...? Not including the Vegas buffet crude...?
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
2017-1100
2016-1022
2015-2072

The last couple of years the state has been raiding the earnings from the fund to help pay for services and .gov.
The price of oil tanked (for multiple reasons, maybe Reilly can fill you in on why) and thus the money they get from it tanked.
Stock market has some to do with it.
The earnings from the states investments (via the Fund) are part of what’s divided and dispersed each year.
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
JB, you have no idea.
I have a sled warming up in the bed of the truck as we do the 30 minute drive up to the pass. And I leave my truck running while we do a few quick BRRRAPPski laps. No joke.
And I’m as limp wristed of a liberal as it gets.
You should see what the real ‘necks do around here.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
F...I totally believe you on that...I remember the block heater outlets in the parking lot in front of University of Fairbanks...
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
oh no, the little boy had a bad day today?

had some fun with his arrows ^^^, STFU

gets mean girl mad when someone calls him out for his bs, - insulting everyone every day

poor Donald, keep it going, Robert Mueller coming for you.....you won't be around
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
RJ- Being able to plug into a block heater is 5 star luxury.
The real deal is running your jetboil in contact with your oil pan for 45 minutes while doing jumping jacks when you get back to the trail head after a 16 hour day on some 2500’ north buttress of some choss heap. Just ask Reilly.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
Being able to plug into a block heater is 5 star luxury.

Where I grew up (the Canadian prairie), it was a basic necessity. No block heater? Then no drive.

The real deal is running your jetboil in contact with your heater pan for 45 minutes while doing jumping jacks when you get back to the trail head after a 16 hour day on some 2500’ north buttress of some choss heap.

Or after a January week way up in the Canadian Rockies. Same deal. Car won't start? No worries, it's a Subaru with a metal skid plate under the oil sump. Just set the MSR stove under that, and come back in 45 minutes.
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
Ya bra... eh?
Sorry about the thread drift. Back to the topic at hand.
Trump can suck the shriveled limp thing hanging out of Reilly’s pants.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 21, 2017 - 08:42pm PT
oh no

somebody went quiet

got your liddle feelings hurt, huh boo boo? come on back
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 21, 2017 - 09:39pm PT
You retards! The checks aren't drawn on what's in the ground, they're based
on what comes through the bloody pipe. Is that accounting too difficult?
With less than half of what used to come through and with twice as many
freeloaders getting checks based on oil at half price even a Democrat can
do that math.

And BTW even if Trump OK's drilling in the ANWR that couldn't possible start
producing for at least 6 years by which time the Democrats will have been
back in power for at least 3 years, i.e., put a sock in that pipe.
F

climber
away from the ground
Nov 21, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA

Nov 21, 2017 - 09:39pm PT
You retards! The checks aren't drawn on what's in the ground, they're based
on what comes through the bloody pipe. Is that accounting too difficult?


No, Retard, it’s based on the earnings of the fund that are invested in the stock market. The amount of oil coming through the pipeline on a yearly basis has no effect on the amount of the dividend. Is that accounting too difficult to understand?

The state .gov operating budget is affected by the amount of oil flowing yearly. NOT the permanant Fund.
Keep talking. Your limp di ck is still hanging out of your pants.
Jesus. Just admit you have no idea what you’re talking about and change the subject to something you actually know something about. Like having your life subsidized by your wife.

The amount of each payment is based upon a five-year average of the Permanent Fund's performance and varies widely depending on the stock market and many other factors. The PFD is calculated by the following steps:[16]

Add Fund Statutory Net Income from the current plus the previous four fiscal years.
Multiply by 21%
Divide by 2
Subtract prior year obligations, expenses and PFD program operations
Divide by the number of eligible applicants

Simple Wiki search demonstrates your ignorance Reilly. Zip up and zip it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 10:23pm PT
When was the permanent fund created? Never mind


The Alaska Permanent Fund is a constitutionally established permanent fund managed by a state-owned corporation, the Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation (APFC).[1] It was established in Alaska in 1976[2] by Article 9, Section 15 of the Alaska State Constitution[3] under Governor Jay Hammond. From February 1976 until April 1980, the Department of Revenue Treasury Division managed the state's Permanent Fund assets, until, in 1980, the Alaska State Legislature created the APFC.[4] As of the end of 2016, the fund is worth nearly $55 billion that has been funded by oil revenues.[5]

Shortly after the oil from Alaska’s North Slope began flowing to market through the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, the Permanent Fund was created by an amendment to the Alaska Constitution. It was designed to be an investment where at least 25% of the oil money would be put into a dedicated fund for future generations, who would no longer have oil as a resource.[6] This does not mean the fund is solely funded by oil revenue. The Fund includes neither property taxes on oil company property nor income tax from oil corporations, so the minimum 25% deposit is closer to 11% if those sources were also considered.[Context?] The Alaska Permanent Fund sets aside a certain share of oil revenues to continue benefiting current and all future generations of Alaskans. Many citizens[who?] also believed that the legislature too quickly and too inefficiently spent the $900 million bonus the state got in 1969 after leasing out the oil fields. This belief spurred a desire to put some oil revenues out of direct political control.
...

But see TLP below

Yakety yak.
Don't talk back
TLP

climber
Nov 21, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Yakking about the money is a digression. The real problem is that consuming all the fossil fuels just in currently operating wells and (coal) mines blows the world right past the 2 degree C target (which is probably too high to avoid major adverse effects. Add proven undeveloped reserves to that consumption, and we're literally toast (except the coastal folks who will be underwater).

Alaska is happy to get all this money. Is the state saving some of it to deal with the infrastructure costs that are already resulting from melting of permafrost and other climate change effects? And future costs which will be much higher?

We do not need to find and pump any more new oil fields in Alaska, period. It is simply time to start tapering off on the fossil fuel burning. Petroleum is a great raw material for other purposes, we just need to burn less of it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 22, 2017 - 05:55am PT
Petroleum is a great raw material for other purposes, we just need to burn less of it.

Exactly...

If one believes that humans are contributing to global warming or not doesn't much matter. To me it just makes sense to use less of a finite resource.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 22, 2017 - 06:33am PT
fear...Your recent posts are making too much sense..did someone hijack your account...?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:24am PT
President trump said that Roy Moore’s opponent Doug Jones is “terrible on crime.”

Jones was a federal prosecutor who helped convict klansmen who blew up an Alabama church.

I guess Jones’ prosecution of those “fine people” klansmen make him terrible on crime.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:39am PT
When Has Trump Been Accused of Rape or Attempted Rape? Allegations Include a Child, His Wife and a Business Associate

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender, and raped a 13-year-old girl that night in what was a "savage sexual attack," according to a lawsuit filed in June 2016 by "Jane Doe." The account was corroborated by a witness in the suit, who claimed to have watched as the child performed various sexual acts on Trump and Epstein even after the two were advised she was a minor.

"Immediately following this rape Defendant Trump threatened me that, were I ever to reveal any of the details of Defendant Trump’s sexual and physical abuse of me, my family and I would be physically harmed if not killed," Jane Doe wrote in the lawsuit, filed in New York.

The lawsuit was dropped in November 2016, just four days before the election, with Jane Doe's attorneys citing "numerous threats" against her.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:43am PT
Craig,

It’s the transsexuals in bathrooms we need to worry about, not Roy Moore or Donald Trump. They are defenders of western Judeo-Christian values draining the swamp.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:56am PT
fear...Your recent posts are making too much sense..did someone hijack your account...?

You sure you wanted the red pill? The rabbit hole is really deep. :)

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 22, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
why is the gop pushing an unpopular tax plan?

xCon.... easy to answer. The Republicans are showing how weak and ineffective they really are. It was much easier to be on the outs, with the democrats in power, and just scream bloody murder at all the things wrong with the USA.

They did allow Donald Trump to take over their Party after all.

So at this last minute... second they must "do something- anything"



Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Nov 22, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
Only the Loathly

I'm not a religious man
Can't say I believe in much
On the power of good and evil
Let's say some have an evil touch
If Jesus visited the White House
To check on things 'round there
Would they even bid him welcome
Or offer him a beer?

Don't know much about religion
I don't think there's much to tell
But if god himself went there to call
He could not stand the smell
If I'm only a loathsome sinner
I'd say that's just as well
At least I'm not like Donald Trump
Who's working his way to hell

I don't have a crystal ball now
And my politics don't quite fit
If his wealthy compadres joined him there
I would not give a ....
Can't say I believe in religion
And I'm rarely a travelin' man
But the way this country is heading
I'll be moving to Mazatlan

-bushman
11/22/2017
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 22, 2017 - 03:54pm PT
X Con-
why is the gop pushing an unpopular tax plan?
I'm a small business owner in California with some rentals and kids going into college. My tax man says I'm fuked in a couple of years after the bait and switch carrot is gone.

The average Trump supporter is equally fuked when their pie in the sky GDP projections don't pan out and the corporations keep their jobs and revenue offshore.

I generally don't question how another person votes but in this instance- you people are fools!
WBraun

climber
Nov 22, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
You people just don't get it ever.

Why ... because you really ARE st00pid!

The world IS run by the elite not you slaves and no matter how much you bitch and moan they will roooool you into the ground.

You politards are the dumbest, brainwashed and st00pidest of em all.

Keep on whining you fools .......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
You people just don't get it ever.

Why ... because you really ARE st00pid!

That's why we need you, Lord Werner!

We are st00pid, but we know you are wise, and we anxiously await the day you stop flinging poo at us and instead share your wisdom. We don't care that you have called us st00pid in over 25,000 posts on Supertopo because we know that, when the time is right, you will lead us to enlightenment.

Until then, we all bow in awe at your poo-flinging. It's what we come to Supertopo for. Yes, that's right. It may seem as though we want to engage in discussion of many things that affect our own daily lives, and the world our children will grow up in, but that is just a cover for the fact that all we all really want is for you to sh#t in our communal punchbowl.
WBraun

climber
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
I knew you would show up Ghost.

I wrote especially just for you in mind Ghost, since you take yourself sooo seriously here ..... you poor little thing.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
The path to gross un-stoopideness requires drinking from Lord Pooflings punch bowl...
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
Y'all gonna need some-buddy on your bond


[Click to View YouTube Video]
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 22, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
Happy Thanksgiving all you raging politards!

See you after the turkey coma.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 23, 2017 - 01:53pm PT
And yet, some are still free (to fall) - forever


Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 23, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Business Insider, a right wing, pro big-business publication has this to say about the Republican tax bill:

Three new analyses of the Senate's Tax Cuts and Jobs Act all delivered bad news for Republican leaders.
• The Tax Policy Center found that more than 50% of Americans would see a tax increase in 2027 under the bill.
• Only one out of 42 economists surveyed by the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business said the bill would increase economic growth substantially.
• The Penn-Wharton Budget Model found that the bill would blow a hole in the federal deficit.


Economists do not think the bill will grow the economy

Trump and Republicans have argued that the cuts in the plan would stimulate economic growth and even help "pay for" its new spending. Most economists aren't buying the rosy projections.

But according to the IGM Forum survey of 42 academic economists by the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, only one economist agreed that "US GDP will be substantially higher a decade from now" than under the current baseline. In fact, 52% disagreed or strongly disagreed that the bill would lead to significant economic growth, and 36% were uncertain.

And when asked whether the "US debt-to-GDP ratio will be substantially higher" in 10 years under the bill compared with current law, 88% of the economists agreed or strongly agreed, 2% were uncertain, and the rest abstained.

Penn-Wharton budget model says the bill would blow a hole in the deficit

The final rough analysis for the legislation came from a new report from the University of Pennsylvania, using its Penn-Wharton Budget Model to assess the budgetary effects of the bill.

While Trump administration officials say the legislation would pay for itself, some Senate Republicans have been hesitant to support the bill over concerns that it would cause a massive increase in the federal debt.

The Penn model found that the bill would increase the federal deficit by $1.327 trillion over the first 10 years after it becomes law (not including debt-service costs). Even when factoring in the economic boost from the tax cuts, according to the report, the bill would still add $1.271 trillion in debt.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-bill-analysis-reviews-text-2017-11
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 23, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
The NYTimes just shared their Turkey Day dish to pass - that lawyers for Flynn have told Trump admin lawyers they can no longer share information.
Looking forward to Trump's TwitterTantrum on the topic.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 24, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
The current tax bill is part and parcel of the standard model of how congressional Republicans will servilely whore for the NRA or corporations and billionaires, while they foster zero sum game partisanship, and frame Orwellian false narratives that prey upon the biases of their base—such as more guns lead to less crime, or lower taxes on the wealthy lead to higher wages for the poor and middle class, net neutrality is bad because, capitalism.



https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachments/bp-economy-for-99-percent-160117-en.pdf
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 24, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
I am thankful for Crankl00ns and Walmartians. Cut from the same fubar'd DNA but providing entertainment nonetheless
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 24, 2017 - 04:46pm PT

Better a Crankl00n than a petty, cowardly sniping waste of bandwidth.



So what if the former “PotatoHead” climbs.

His token posts in those threads are clearly not why he is here.

And he is not here to discuss intelligently or even argue passionately on issues he supports and cares about; he never says anything of substance.

And it is obvious he is not just against OT content because his attacks are so clearly one-sided.

He’s too light in the shorts to present his own argument on its merits so this yellow back biter resorts to popping out of his anonymous sewer to shriek his childish taunts.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 24, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
Yeah, maybe it’s too much to wish for, but if he only had the self-awareness to realize how much he lacks the ability to articulate an intelligent reply maybe he would limit himself to just saying “TFPU” on the trip report threads.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 24, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
And he is not here to discuss intelligently

HaHa...so easily baited.

Intelligent debate...here? What a joke.

Brainwashed selfish ol'Politard fool Crankl00ns swallowing loads of confirmation bias.

These politard threads are such a joke. No Soul.

How was your black friday at Waltard?

Cheers
drFree
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 24, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
Somewhere a sewer is missing its cockroach . . .
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
Potato head he never says anything of substance.

neither do you guys.

It's all Trump sucks in a thousand st00pid ways over and over and over.

And it's all brainwashed useless mainstream media regurgitated drool over and over and over.

We see it daily on the news and then you regurgitate it here the same horseh!t all over again.

Now that is st000pid ....
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 24, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
Really?

You’re complaining about us posting the same sh;t over and over and over???

Not that we aren’t, but . . .


27,889 posts.

Always the same “st00pid crankl00ns” and “st00pid Americans”; it’s rather predictable.

If you ever want to take a day off or get an electronics project done I’d be willing to help you out by taking your place here for a day or two—these rants of yours should pretty much write themselves—no problem, no charge, just let me know Werner.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 24, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
I think Lennox is onto something there.

At the end of each post each of us should (optionally of course) post what response
it's going to get from the poster of his/her choosing
Baby you can follow me down.









wardo, climber, denver

You're full of sh#t Brown, isn't that how you got that moniker


Or perhaps


Your tone towards Fattrad attempts to perpetuate the notion he is some type of intellectual leper. However, check your facts; George W. Bush’s approval rating stands at 33%. (This is a humongous number for a war-time president) One in three Americans believe Bush is doing his job well; this includes his posturing on Iran. (This is the point you attacked FT on; posturing.)

Also, rather than belittle someone to go read a book, why not engage them with the intended premise in a more useful manner?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 25, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
Honey Boo Boo is like the rabid dog that comes charging out of an unfenced yard to chase and terrorize every innocent passer - by... Can someone by him a tire to attack and chew ...?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 25, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
drF

Trad climber
usa
Nov 25, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
I was wondering what you clowns were talking about with this Honey b00 b00 BS.

Ironic that you Honey b00 b00 f00ls here seem to be the real exspurts at reality TV. Maybe open a window and get some fresh air from time-to-time? It's gotta be well beyond funk in your crib....ooofah!

But heh....carry on with your fact-based deep discussions about national policy. It would be a nice change. You are mostly engaged in attacking people that don't agree with you.

LoL
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California, now Ireland
Nov 25, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
Ken M, you beat me to it by several days, regarding the tax cuts article from The Guardian (yes, a liberal publication so to speak, but usually spot on with its facts).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/20/republican-tax-cuts-democrats

And this is also a good article, Trump may be re-elected but even if he is not, he will leave a "legacy" behind that may very well harm America, and this article is just one example of that.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/22/federal-court-judicial-nominations-donald-trump

The damage that Trump and his cohort are doing to the environment, to social justice, to the average American, to just a about everything (that should be "American" values, if my high school civics course was correct) will reverberate for many years to come.

Scary and sad. Where is the consensus and compromise that a healthy democracy and society needs?

Just my two cents.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 25, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Can someone by him a tire to attack and chew ...?

They got Honey Boo Boo a few chew toys, Sessions is a favorite
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 27, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
Project Veritas gets stung trying to sting Washington Post over Judge Roy Moore.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Woman-approached-Post-with-false-tale-about-12386916.php
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 27, 2017 - 07:49pm PT
Monolith! I'm with you, per your article link.

The newspaper reporters showed "due diligence" instead of running the liar's story, then they caught her checking into the NYC office of one of the right-wing "fake-news" outlets.

It all smells like a plot from the king of right-wing liars, Steve Bannon, stinky, sweaty, & full of schist.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2017 - 08:14am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Hey Reilly, what do you think of the New Tax Plan?

I'm looking forward to the huge raise I'll be getting!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 28, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
Inside the White House, Michael Flynn pushed a proposal from a company he had advised

The then-national security adviser asked his staff to turn a memo from a former business associate into a proposal for President Trump. His advocacy for the project surprised some administration officials and raised concerns that Flynn had a conflict of interest.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 28, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
No doubt , Trump , who demanded loyalty from his staff , will go for Flynn's throat when the right moment arrives...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 29, 2017 - 08:05am PT
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 08:35am PT
That about sums it up.

We have as a president a racist, crass, narcissistic, likely delusional liar, possibly beholden to a foreign enemy, who is using his office to enrich himself and his family. I do not say any of those things lightly or without deep sadness.

To many of his supporters, including many here, his white nationalism and appeals to moral whataboutism is a feature and not a bug. They voted for bigotry and trump university. Whatever Clinton’s faults are, they don’t nearly measure up to that. Nice going, guys.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 29, 2017 - 08:40am PT






Hi folks,

Just thought y'all'd like to take a trip way, way back in time. When hair spray was queen, and king. I remember it all. And now it's time to move to British Columbia. Something about the rule of law.

That is correct. Donald Trump wrote his 24 kt. Gold signature on the snap shot. Just pretend it's Forrest Gump. It'll make y'all feel more at ease.


Wayne Cochran, Country Great, ret.

-BGW


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:13am PT
Whatever Clinton’s faults are, they don’t nearly measure up to that. Nice going, guys.

Dirtbag.... please get over yourself.... stop crying... It's been one year... only 7 more to go.

I thank god everyday that HRC is not the pres....

Trump is far from a shinning star, but he is what WE voted for....

I hope the democrats do run Elizeb Warren.... the first woman pres and 1/8 NA too. Please do that do it do it do it
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:18am PT
I’m not just going to roll over and “get over it” while that orange dunce and his sycophants ruin things.


That’s not how a free country works.


If you don’t like it, move to Russia.



Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:24am PT
Dirtbag.... please get over yourself.... stop crying... It's been one year... only 7 more to go.

Not quite how the right acted one year after Obama was elected.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:28am PT

Trump is far from a shinning star, but he is what WE voted for....

no honey boo boo, three million more Americans voted for Hillary Clinton

dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:29am PT
Trump is seriously f*#ked up. I wish it was hyperbole—it isn’t. He is the biggest issue looming before, after and during healthcare.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 09:39am PT
That you on the right side with the sign, honey boo?


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 10:36am PT
Norton.... no silly... thats me on the LEFT.

good day to you all
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 11:39am PT
This is why we are not going to get over it:


Over the past 24 hours, President Trump has delivered a concentrated dose of misinformation, self-sabotage, hypocrisy, and bigotry that stands out even by the standards of his short and eventful political career.

The president blew up negotiations to fund the government with a tweet attacking Democratic congressional leaders. He retweeted inflammatory and misleading anti-Islam videos from a bigoted far-right British politician. He joked about presenting a “Fake News Trophy” to media networks. He called attention to Matt Lauer, the NBC host fired on Wednesday for sexual misconduct, despite Trump’s own past admissions of sexual assault. He baselessly implied that NBC host Joe Scarborough, a one-time informal adviser, might have been involved in the death of an intern years ago in Florida. And several outlets reported that the president privately continues to claim preposterous things, including that it wasn’t him on the Access Hollywood tape and that Barack Obama really wasn’t born in the United States.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/its-not-an-act/547010/

Outrageous and terrifying.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
Dirtbag..... Get over it.

Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 12:29pm PT
KKK leader David Duke tweets ‘thank God for Trump!’

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/former-kkk-leader-david-duke-tweets-thank-god-for-trump/
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
xCon..... said
not interested in the questions of whether trumps in his heart is a dedicated racist or just in the business of exploiting them for political favor?

Please show me an example of Trumps racist actions, I would like to know.

Norton bailed from answering this q , maybe YOU have an example.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Nov 29, 2017 - 01:09pm PT


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/every-moment-donald-trumps-long-complicated-history-race

dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
Guyman... is that sh#t I listed (and this only today’s and yesterday’s sh#t ) ok with you?

I think it is, sadly.


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
Please show me an example of Trumps racist actions, I would like to know.

Norton bailed from answering this q , maybe YOU have an example.

what, are you in third grade?

I have listed only a small number as examples of Donald Trump's racism.

He was sued, twice, by the Federal Government for refusing to rent to black Americans

He cried out that he could not expect to get a fair trial because the judge happened to have a "Mexican" last name, - ie - non white judges are not judicially competent and unbiased

I will not bother to educate you any further, use that new internet thing called a "search", you are an embarrassment to all "conservatives"
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
Facts don’t matter. Trump could put a baby into an oven on live tv and they’d cheer him on for pissing off liberals and never trump conservatives in the process.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
FROSTBACK ---- no that's not proof, being a idiot dose not make you a raciest.

Im looking for George Wallace, David Duke, Spike Lee, Reverend Jessie Jackson sort of racist BS...

Lennox.... No, that's not proof, PBS come on. You can do better than that.

d-bag .... you haven't said anything of substance in about 50 years.

Norton.... Ill go with you on the not renting to Blacks BITD, after all everyone did that... even your hero Chucky Schumer.

Let me ask you guys a serious Q;

If you change your voice, your speaking pattern if you will, your words if you will... to match the audience your speaking to, maybe so they will understand better.

Is THAT Raciest?

EDIT: xCon.... good try.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
You didn’t answer my question Guyman.


But whatever.


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
DBag... whatever.

xCon... has the Sioux leader ever ever said anything positive or nice about a US President??????



The other day I was stuck in a waiting room: CNN (ClintonNewsNetwork) was on the TV and Wolf Blitzer was breathlessly reporting that a POLL of Other Nations Leaders found 68% disapprove of Trump.

think about that for a second.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
come on xCon you can do better than that......

post a picture of Idiots???



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
what do those signs mean..? they got rumped by trump..?
c wilmot

climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 04:45pm PT

Illuminati...

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
The bottom line is that partisans spend an inordinate amount of time excusing the behavior of their politician's much like enabling parents do for their bratty kids.

Trump is the biggest piece of sh#t I've ever seen and Hillary is a self serving liar and manipulator, yet their supporters remain rabid.

Obama was a pragmatic leader that didn't care much about optics or placating crooked power brokers like Bill and Hillary or the Jesse Jackson croud. Democrats need to come together and recruit progressive candidates similar to Obama that are policy driven, ethical and acceptable to Independents.

Unfortunately the Republican party, in its current state and by it's own hand, is only capable of producing sh!t candidates that win by out-screeching the competition. Any reasonable Republicans are quickly dismembered by the pack hyenas or forced to sell their sole. The establishment's southern strategy and race baiting has worked so well that they've lost their party to an angry, motivated and ill-informed minority.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
guyman asks

Please show me an example of Trumps racist actions, I would like to know.

Norton bailed from answering this q , maybe YOU have an example.


I have listed only a small number as examples of Donald Trump's racism.

He was sued, twice, by the Federal Government for refusing to rent to black Americans

He cried out that he could not expect to get a fair trial because the judge happened to have a "Mexican" last name, - ie - non white judges are not judicially competent and unbiased

I will not bother to educate you any further, use that new internet thing called a "search"
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
come on xCon you can do better than that......

post a picture of Idiots???


Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Nov 30, 2017 - 07:31am PT
By their actions the corporate/government leadership in Congress and the White House are oblivious to the very real and age old concept that the price of being ‘right’ all the time is too high of a price to pay; pushing the stalemate envelope with North Korea by parroting the rogue state’s insane dialect, Congress and Trump having no conscience about sanctioning the wealthy while having no fear of the consequences of continuing to lie to the American public, and failing to acknowledge the power of the ongoing and exponentially expanding women’s revolution against the sexually abusive, racist, and pedophile ensconced good ol’ boys club of America which angrily clutches to the reins of power.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2017 - 11:35am PT
Another win/win family situation in our government:

Betsy DeVos (older sister of the head of Blackwater) heads the department of education to dumb down America, so more people have military as their best career prospects, where they get training paid by USA taxpayers and then they can contribute to Blackwater profits! Government policy-making that prioritizes personal family wealth-building :)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 30, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
More proof that the private sector does better work than those government luzzers...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:37pm PT
what missing from this concise is that they were sent out to guard a truck full of kitchen equipment and were given a route THROUGH the city of Fallujah instead of staying on the highway which circled the sunni stronghold...


xCon..... all this good news from the past.... BUSH and his crew ripped all of us off, F-up the people of Iraq and made many many friends of "BUSH and Co" rich....

My question back then and ever since has been this; Why do we need to hire civilian contractors to provide security for our Military?.... we have troops who work for peanuts per day who know how to shoot.

I know you do not agree at all with my politics.... I did vote for Trump- not because I think he would make a good president but he was not a BUSH or a Clinton. And the Trump sh#t sandwich is at least a different tasting sandwich from "the Clinton" or "the Bush" one- I know what that sh#t tastes like. Lets just say the Trump sandwich, has a more varied, less smooth but with less lies to your face.




rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:41pm PT
Less lies... Now that sounds like something klimmer would claim...
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Nov 30, 2017 - 03:51pm PT
Turd-in-a-bag
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:31am PT
Flynn has coughed up the Orange Hairball.

Mueller filed surprisingly light charges against Michael Flynn this morning. But the word on the in is that there was a deal made. And that deal was "NO deal unless you give up the f/ing Old Goat."

Plea Hearing scheduled for 10:30am est.


My prophesy prose:
He looked tired; oh, so tired. It had been a long and particularly awful fall from his highly regarded former standing, even though at some point, long ago, he understood that one day he would stumble. For years, he wondered when that day would come, and last year he understood that he hadn't even noticed when that trip up occurred.

The retired Lieutenant General of the United States Army took a shallow but noticeable breath, sighed and meekly replied, "Guilty, your honor."

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:47am PT
Yeah, this is big. Sh#t, meet fan.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-flynn-to-plead-guilty-to-lying-to-fbi-1512138216-htmlstory.html

According to the plea deal, Flynn lied to FBI agents about whether he asked the Russian government in December 2016 to hold off on retaliating against sanctions imposed by then-President Obama for trying to interfere with the campaign. He also lied about how the Russian government had agreed to "moderate its response."

Flynn lost his job as national security advisor in February, only 24 days after Trump's inauguration, after the Washington Post revealed that he had misled Vice President Mike Pence about his communications with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak.

And a Lieutenant General at that.

And guess how the tax cuts for billionaires are being paid for?
In a videotaped interview with two Politico reporters Wednesday, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said the quiet parts out loud. Asked by interviewers Anna Palmer and Jake Sherman how to address the federal deficit, he replied: “We have to do two things. We have to generate economic growth which generates revenue, while reducing spending. That will mean instituting structural changes to Social Security and Medicare for the future.” (A video of Rubio’s appearance is here, with his remarks on Social Security and Medicare beginning at the 21:45 mark.)

The only thing that’s new here is the explicit admission by a Republican officeholder that this is the GOP’s master plan to eviscerate the welfare and retirement of American workers. Budget analysts have seen it coming with all the subtlety of a freight train. As we reported earlier this month, the damage begins with the so-called Paygo law (for “pay as you go”), which requires Congress to offset any increase in the federal deficit with spending cuts. The law limits Medicare cuts to 4% of its budget per year, or $25 billion of its $625-billion budget.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gop-social-security-20171130-story.html
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:54am PT
And a Lieutenant General at that.

How long has the man been dirty, is my question. He held VERY important positions within the military.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:09am PT
Drain the swamp!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:24am PT
Trump has a more varied, less smooth but with less lies to your face.
Guyman
I don't know what realty you live in, but you are delusional

You believe all the lies that they fabricated about Hillary, yet you don't believe the lies that Trump says on a daily basis.
Everything he says is a lie, he's just a snake oil salesman, a con man, a mafia boss, he will make up a new lie every second just to sell you his newest Bullsh#t.
That's the very definition of a koolaid drinker

1,000 Lies in 200 Days: A Detailed Look at Trump's Catalog of Falsehoods

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/08/22/1000-lies-200-days-detailed-look-trumps-catalog-falsehoods

analysis shows the president averaging nearly five falsehoods per day since his inauguration
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:43am PT
I'm Spitting Furious Fire

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/30/1719888/-I-m-Spitting-Furious-Fire

I just want to make sure I have this straight.

Under less than one year of GOP leadership:
•Public education in this country is being destroyed
•Higher education is being destroyed
•Our Judiciary is being destroyed
•Our State Department is being destroyed
•The EPA is being destroyed
•Blue states are being specifically targeted for political retribution
•The social safety net is being ripped to shreds
•Millions of American citizens in Puerto Rico are living in Stone Age conditions
•Our closest allies are being antagonized
•Dictatorships are becoming our new best friends
•Honest to goodness f*#king Nazis have the President’s ear
•Our very democracy has been handed over to a hostile foreign power

And now the party of “fiscal responsibility” is about to turn the entire nation into Kansas and add TRILLIONS to the national debt.

WHILE MARCHING US TO WAR WITH NORTH KOREA.

Who is going to pay for that war?

Who is going to fight that war? Our volunteer forces certainly don’t have the capacity.

I am so furious I can barely see straight.

I am also scared witless. Of my own government. In f*#king America.

Anybody who ever has the nerve to utter ‘both parties are the same’ again is dumber than the dumbest dirt.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:56am PT
Yes,
I'm Spitting Furious Fire

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/30/1719888/-I-m-Spitting-Furious-Fire

I just want to make sure I have this straight.

Under less than one year of GOP leadership:
•Public education in this country is being destroyed
•Higher education is being destroyed
•Our Judiciary is being destroyed
•Our State Department is being destroyed
•The EPA is being destroyed
•Blue states are being specifically targeted for political retribution
•The social safety net is being ripped to shreds
•Millions of American citizens in Puerto Rico are living in Stone Age conditions
•Our closest allies are being antagonized
•Dictatorships are becoming our new best friends
•Honest to goodness f*#king Nazis have the President’s ear
•Our very democracy has been handed over to a hostile foreign power

And now the party of “fiscal responsibility” is about to turn the entire nation into Kansas and add TRILLIONS to the national debt.

WHILE MARCHING US TO WAR WITH NORTH KOREA.

Who is going to pay for that war?

Who is going to fight that war? Our volunteer forces certainly don’t have the capacity.

I am so furious I can barely see straight.

I am also scared witless. Of my own government. In f*#king America.

Anybody who ever has the nerve to utter ‘both parties are the same’ again is dumber than the dumbest dirt.
all on Putins orders, to bring down democracy around the world. Wait for the ides of March. As the spring thaw in Europe will bring with it a Soviet style on-slaught, Make Russia Great . . . . Again.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:04am PT
maggot in chief

Creepy little maggot
Crawling in and out
Way over in Washington
Makes me want to shout
Never was my president
Never will he be
With his warped sense of reality
And changing history

Creepy little maggot
Small and insecure
Will never be my president
Never was for sure
We’ll be lucky if we all survive
His last and final cure

-in a strange land
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:05am PT
Who is going to pay for that war?

They will put it on a secret credit card and then put it on the books after a Dem takes control..
Just like what Bush did to Obama, all of a sudden the National debt jumped up a couple trillion the day after Obama took office.

The GOP use every sinister angle to dupe and cheat the Nation.
Terrorists couldn't do a millionth the damage they do every year.
WBraun

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:06am PT
all on Putins orders, to bring down democracy around the world.

You brainwashed idiots believe all this horsesh!t.

That's why Americans are st00pid moniker is soooo right for you people .......
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:19am PT
I’ve had a gut feeling about the corrupt nature of politicians and religious leaders from about the age of eight or nine years old well over 50 years ago, I never needed television or the news media to inform me about what I know in my heart is right.

angry fake christian righteousness

Angry republican fake christian redneck ex-hippies
Think you’ll buy them as respectable or whatever that might be
They are phony beyond comprehension
Masking racism as their true intention
Angrily hating transparency from sea to shining sea...

-i forgot you believe you know god’s will
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:23am PT
Make Russia Great . . . . Again.

Now we know why the hats are red.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:25am PT
No SIR ?

You brainwashed idiots believe all this horsesh!t.

That's why Americans are st00pid moniker is soooo right for you people .......
Then tell us whos on 1st?
IT IS not the Brazilians or the Japanese who, along with My Germany, has given Nuclear power the boot. . .

on what planet is this not an old school soviet program?

IS IT ACTUALLY THE Israelis?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:28am PT
Flynn cut a deal. He's going to testify against Trump.

Merry Christmas Donald.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:49am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:49am PT
Flynn and Putin are the only people Trump has not insulted or back stabbed (yet). Makes you wonder?
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:53am PT
Is the caged bird going to sing sweet songs?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Orange is the new black. A nice orange jumpsuit will compliment his complexion and hair color.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 1, 2017 - 10:24am PT
I don't see the value of a witness who's a convicted felony liar. If I'm a juror, that's someone I don't believe.

Should have gotten them to plead to something else.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2017 - 11:04am PT
Flynn proved himself to BE a liar..... thats why Trump caned his ass.

So hold onto you panties everybody..... let see where this goes.


The TAX deal..... bad for all of US in the blue states. Lets see how this goes.

Crag Fry... chill out dude.

and to all.... please explain, how does the President of the USA effect your life on a daily basis?

Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Dec 1, 2017 - 11:30am PT
Orange was once my favorite...

But it’s dead to me now.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Dec 1, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
Flynn proved himself to BE a liar..... thats why Trump caned his ass.

How many times has trump been proven a liar, on a daily basis? But I take it you'll believe what trump says, on a daily basis?

Do you see how I answered your question? Maybe you can answer the 2 above?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
Crager....
How many times has trump been proven a liar, on a daily basis? But I take it you'll believe what trump says, on a daily basis?


how many more times???? Look I think all politicians lie to all of US on a daily basis.

so whats your question?

here is one of my favorite songs..... "How many more times".... by a band with hair and balls. enjoy.

[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyqgcwJU8Pg]










Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 1, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
Put Trump on the witness stand, and I won't believe him either.

What makes a successful politician also makes a lousy witness.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
Trump lies about everything even though he doesn't need to, it's his need to bullshit about things he doesn't have a clue about to look smart, so it makes him look like a clown.
I can see completely through him, he is bad liar.

once you become skeptical about the truth, you can see the lies more clearly.

And the magnitude of the lie is most important, small lies once in while can be forgiven, or if you make a mistake then apologize, then it's cool

But if you double down on a known lie, you are pathological
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 01:36pm PT
how many more times???? Look I think all politicians lie to all of US on a daily basis.

More absurd whataboutism from Guyman.

No president has lied nearly this much.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 1, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
How many times has trump been proven a liar, on a daily basis? But I take it you'll believe what trump says, on a daily basis?

how many more times???? Look I think all politicians lie to all of US on a daily basis.

I see, so your defense that Trump lying is ok is because "all" other politicians also lie?

sorry but that does not hold water as a defense for Trump lying...

in addition, I strongly challenge your belief that all politicians lie

I have been closely following both local and Federal politics for over 55 years
and I have found that, by far, the vast majority of those who choose to serve in public office when they could be making a lot more money in the private sector do not "lie"

I could go down the list of thousand of names of those in office right now and tell you to state exactly what they have lied about and prove it from credible source

and you will not be able to do it, period, enough uneducated, sophomoric nonsense
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
What locker said...sadly.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
" They all do it "...Typical lazy thinking...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
Not to worry....Trump promises to fix Obamacare with a more affordable , better program... Wait , you mean he was lying...?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
frostback... They all do it...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
You guys are funny.

but carry on... it makes for some good chuckles.

and yes the tax bill is designed to hurt us... f*#ken republicans.

so when is the democrat party going to stop bitching and moaning about their Gal loosing the "un-loosable" election and maybe let us select some good candidates?

being the party of "NO" will make you soft.... just look at the pathetic republican party, fortunately they can't get anything "done" ether... and that's a good thing IMHO.




StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
GOP is scrambling to pass a half-assed "tax reform" before tRump is impeached and they lose the House next year.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
Trump averages 5.5 lies a day
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
Entitlements...? Are the republicans talking about the money taken out of our paychecks during our years of employment...?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
Even the math with rose colored glasses puts the increase to the deficit at one trillion- that's WITH the supposed increased economic output!

In other news the guy that used to lead the "lock her up" chant is pleading guilty in his federal criminal case. LOL!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
RJ! Re your comment/question:
Entitlements...? Are the republicans talking about the money taken out of our paychecks during our years of employment...?


Yep! The Republicans need that money to support their donors, Corporations & the very-wealthy. Believe them, they need more of our money, but they can't raise taxes due to their signed & sworn pledges.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
Lock him up. Then,
Lock HIM up.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
I don't mind paying higher taxes if it will allow the corporations to create more jobs....The money will eventually trickle back down to me...
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
Tax bill being jammed thru tonight. Some pages are scribbled and illegible Looks like they have 51 votes.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 1, 2017 - 09:39pm PT
Shortly after his triumphal return to the USA from a really, very fine Asian Presidential Ad campaign, Great Leader trump huddled with A.G.Sessions. The A.G. had just finished perjuring himself to Congressional interrogators. The substance of the meeting of the two predators centered on the three UCLA basketball players whom the President saved from "30-50 years at hard labor' in the Excellent Songgong Rehabilitation Facility in Gangrape, China.

Mr. Sessions said to trump "Them three boys wouldn't last one minute in one of those Chinese toenail factories. You tell 'em that, Mr. Trump, and tell 'em they owe their physcal (sic) health and sexyal self-respect to the fact that you pulled old Z's arm near outen its socket. Showed the Chinese we kick butt. Sir"

The elfin Sessions added "Course, them boys'll never get a job in the U.S.and A., long as you're at the rudder of State, and I got my shillelagh in the water. Hell's bells, we can lock 'em up here in our own great country. Shoot 'em, on a as-needed basis. At long last, it (sic) open season on colored boys, and I swear, my asthma and rheumatism's the best they been since Ronnie Reagan was slashin' the marginal tax rate and pimpin' 'welfare mothers'."

For two powerful men who despised each other, they shared a hearty laugh. The slight Attorney General, as a result of his feet not reaching the floor in front of his velvet-upholstered Queen Ann side chair, consistently spilled his swee' tea (sweetened iced tea), on the carpet, drawing ants. The President, not amused, sipped from his can of Diet Coke and scratched his nuts.

It is not fair to say that the United States of America is adrift. We are on a true and steady heading. No one great mind could have done it alone. Like one of those uneaten fruit cakes, there are many components, components that lead us toward a fatal collision with history. Fixings such as Vladimir Putin, the Koch Siamese twins, Mad Dog Mattis, Donald J. trump, the Steve Siamese twins, Bannon and Miller, and a candied fruit mix of DeVos, Zinke, Perry, Pruitt, Tillerson, Carson, with Mnuchin added as a lubricant and anti-drying agent. Ivanka, Donnie Jr., and Eric, each less than a trace. Hope, Huckabee and KellyAnne to preempt spoilage.

**And who benefits from this madness? I suppose the top .1%, numbering at most 320,000 people. Throw in the mortuary owners who specialize in "preventable deaths resulting from no health insurance", and a score of yacht dealers.

Now, mull around in your mind two more figures. The remaining Americans, the scant 320,000,000 folks, who survive on stagnant wages, no retirement, shrinking health insurance, dying Medicare and Medicaid. The second number is 3,200,000. If just one in a hundred Americans has, and uses a pitchfork, there are three million, two hundred thousand pitchforks.

An editorial comment: One pitchfork is an agricultural tool. Millions of pitchforks are quite another thing**.
-bgw
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 1, 2017 - 10:06pm PT
It's hard to believe how gullible the majority of those on the right are.

Yes many democrats are corrupt and dishonest, but the republicans are just as bad in those aspects and far worse for average Americans.

Theses tax cuts are very similar to the Bush tax cuts that gave most benefits to the rich and exploded the deficit and did not pay for themselves.

These tax cuts are 61.8% of the cuts for the 1% and even worse 39.8% for the 0.1%!

Income inequality is getting really bad. The super rich are getting even richer. And now almost half the tax cuts go to the 0.1% and some people believe the lies that this is for the middle. class.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
The Taco's own JEleazarian is given special mention in the article below, by The Intercept, as one of "137 economists who say they strongly endorse the Republican (tax) legislation before Congress":

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/01/gops-list-of-economists-backing-tax-cut-includes-ghosts-office-assistants-ex-felons-and-a-sprinkling-of-real-economists/
dirtbag

climber
Dec 2, 2017 - 07:11am PT
^^^That about sums it up.^^^
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Dec 2, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Should I become a Republican now?
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 2, 2017 - 07:28am PT
I see those jackals slipped in an approval for drilling in ANWR. Scumbag republicans just scumming along. Nothing is sacred, right? Except of course for cheap oil and big profits. Those tenants are near and dear to the GOP's "heart".
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 2, 2017 - 07:51am PT
Individual mandate for Obamacare repealed. There was also an amendment to reimburse anyone who paid the penalty.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 2, 2017 - 07:59am PT
The passed House bill does not deal with the individual mandate at all

= who cares if a trillion dollars is added to the national debt anyway
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:12am PT
that whitehouse mailing list wasn't a total waste after all
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:31am PT
I suspect Fox news is not as blunt as Reuters about the Republican's latest fuking of America.


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate narrowly approved a tax overhaul on Saturday, moving Republicans and President Donald Trump a big step closer to their goal of slashing taxes for businesses and the rich while offering everyday Americans a mixed bag of changes.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax/senate-approves-major-tax-cuts-in-victory-for-trump-idUSKBN1DV4K2
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:38am PT
You are right Norton, but it is in the Senate bill and the house will have no problem, even delighted, amending to it during reconciliation.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:40am PT
The economy is doing well...Low unemployment with strong corporate profits...The Republicans are selling this tax cut package as a means to simulate the economy which is a ploy to con the voters into helping out the 1%.. Remember 2007 when the Dems attempts at kick-starting the Bush recession ( a result of Bush's tax cut disaster ) were blocked because Republicans didn't want to increase the deficit...funny how the Republican narrative has flipped 180 degrees where deficit spending is suddenly good for stimulating the economy...Any of you simpleton Trump groupies paying attention...?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:42am PT
^^^^^
[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 10:28am PT
where is the AARP with their rusty pitchforks?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 2, 2017 - 11:33am PT
Russia, under Putin has become a neo-feudalistic state.

The US has a ways to go, but this tax bill and the gaslighting of the electorate by Trump and the Republicans, are speeding us down that road.

Many people in this country have been gaslighted into having a total distrust of the media. They have come to believe that everything is fake news, or at least everybody else’s news sources are fake, and would likely describe themselves as only having a healthy skepticism.

Skepticism has always been healthy. So realizing that the msm corporate overlords might cut stories they don’t like, doesn’t mean they just make sh;t up—many journalists have some integrity. Those that don’t can prey on the distrust of the msm to actually create fake news that they pass off as the reality that the msm won’t tell you.

Corporations, the wealthy, Republicans, Trump, Fox, Breitbart, Daily Caller, etc., are creating a pseudo-reality that is increasingly impervious to logic or reason. Otherwise, how could anyone who is not on that list continue to support Trump’s destruction of democratic norms and institutions, or this tax bill.

The bill is not a tax cut.

It is a bill that massively shifts the tax burden from the wealthy and the corporations onto the poor and middle-class.

Of course just making the corporations and the wealthy richer and more powerful isn’t enough. This bill is also designed to crush the middle class; they are not necessary in a neo-feudal society.

And what would a neo-feudal society be without dynasties? So of course we needed to eliminate the inheritance tax—and if you hear anyone that has less than $11,000,000 tucked away, trying to defend that one, then you can be absolutely certain that you’re dealing with someone who’s been huffing way too much of the right-wing gas.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
kleptokakistocracy
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2017 - 01:02pm PT
where is the AARP with their rusty pitchforks?

AARP was opposed to the bill.


and they say third world countries are corrupt. pfft!
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Dec 2, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
Should I become a Republican now?

Do you make over $500,000?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 2, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
Kiss your SS good bye.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
From what I've just learned...

SS is doing AOK and is set for some years to come...

Presently it DOES NOT appear to be threatened...

Locker, that's not what I've been reading.

drumpf, and the repugs want to go after entitlement programs.
nah000

climber
now/here
Dec 2, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
Q: US national policy issues looming after healthcare?

A: given the rethuglicans latest budget the only really federally relevant question worth asking is: how much money is it going to take to protect those with the reins of power, given the inevitable reckoning [read economic downturn and its reprecussions], that without course correction, will come in the near future?

it appears trump and co have considered this as the only three departments [of those listed on wikipedia] that had their budgets increased in the last budget were:

 defence +9%
 homeland security +7%
 veteran affairs +6%

on the other hand the biggest losers [again of those listed on wikipedia] were the departments of:

 epa -31%
 state -29% [including u.n., peacekeeping and climate change mitigation]
 agriculture -21%
 labour -21%
 health and human services -18%



and if you think i'm being unnecessarily doom and gloom regarding an economic downturn, i'd ask you to take a look at history and what has happened basically every single time u.s. governance has doubled down on tax decreases for the rich at the same time that there is near record income inequality and they federally continue to rack up debt via large annual deficits due in large part to continued largesse especially in the department of defence...

the coles notes is that it's never been pretty for at least the plebs.



it's mind boggling that these ayn rand devotees can't get the cotton pickin' henry ford obvious truth through their mentally handicapped brains: if the common human doesn't have any cash, no one will be able to buy model t's and ultimately/inevitably no one will make money...

instead they have to relearn every so often what should have been learned once and for all at the time of the great depression: income inequality may be fine and necessary to a point... but there is always a point where it ends up fUcking e'erybody.

instead of looking to the hunger games, mad max and swift's a modest proposal for circumstantial assemblages to avoid... it appears they must be looking to them for inspiration.

unfortunately, there are a few too many actual and way too many wannabe rent seekers in the u.s. looking to charge tolls on things they only very partially created and who are therefore intent on greedily sucking the life blood out of all that has been worked for, over the last few hundred years.




oh well, every empire has to come to an end... and i guess if you're going to do it, might as well ride the bloated whale into the beach while led by an aptly spray tanned and coiffed orange shitgibbon who is so pathological if fox news told him the sun had risen in the west, he'd be furiously tweeting it from atop his gold leaf covered bidet while within his windowless water closet...



right now if i was a rich american i'd be investing in an offshore bunker [as many of them are] and if i was an american boomer [or older] i'd make sure my retirement plan was airtight and liquidish [as too many aren't]...

cause someday one of these up and coming generations is going to get wise and figure out the nuts and bolts of how so many of them ended up being locked into dead end student loans unable to buy a home and with only shIt careers in view... and they're going to collectively say to every single one of you/us over 35 or 40 or 45 or whatever age they pick:



fUck all y'all... hope you enjoy the seniors projects we're building for you on the, recently leased from russia, plains of siberia.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 2, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
SOCIAL SECURITY IS IN GOOD SHAPE – AND DOES NOT DRIVE THE DEFICIT

Theda Skocpol, Harvard University, Benjamin Veghte, National Academy of Social Insurance

*Social Security is in Sound Fiscal Shape

Social Security can pay all scheduled benefits for the next 25 years – and more than three-quarters of promised benefits for the 50 years thereafter. Workers and employers cover the cost of Social Security by paying payroll taxes into the Social Security Trust Fund. These payroll taxes do not pass through the regular federal budget and, by law, cannot be spent on other programs. If the rest of government borrows from the Social Security Trust Fund, it has to pay the money back – just like it has to pay back holders of other U.S. Treasury bonds. President Roosevelt designed it this way to protect workers’ retirement savings from Washington’s annual budget battles – or in his words, so that “no damn politician can ever scrap my Social Security program.”

*Social Security Has Built a Nest Egg for Baby Boomers

Social Security’s actuaries plan its finances 75 years into the future. Each year they inform Congress about the long-term surplus or shortfall. Back in 1983, Congress addressed the long-term shortfall by slightly increasing payroll taxes and by gradually raising the retirement age to 67 by 2027. For nearly three decades, the baby boom generation has been paying much more into the program than was needed for current benefits. As a result, Social Security has stored up a whopping $2.6 trillion in worker savings to help pay for the baby boomers’ retirement in the coming years.

In sum, then: even though the share of elderly Americans will grow as boomers retire, the rising retirement age will soften the blow. Hence the cost of Social Security benefits will rise only modestly from 4.8% of Gross Domestic Product today to an estimated 6% in 2085. And boomers have saved up $2.6 trillion to help pay for it.
http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/brief/social-security-good-shape-–-and-does-not-drive-deficit

NOTE: The above calculations do NOT consider any "tweaks" to SS
such as simply raising the % workers and employers pay into the system
such as further "means testing", for example reducing the amount of SS benefits that people with large assets or other large incomes may way
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 2, 2017 - 04:53pm PT
On ABC news tonight, Trump is shown at an inpromptu outdoor press conference. Some reporter yells a question about,
"does the latest reports from Flynn show Collusion with the Russians?"

Trump replies three times, while waving off the problem & the reporters:

There was no Collusion!
There was no Collusion!
There was no Collusion!

Methinks the Colluder doth protest a little much.

The Fuking liar.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 2, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
-Of nearly 60 nominees, three are Asian, one is black and one is Hispanic
-Judicial appointments can be a president's most enduring legacy
-Trump's choices reflect a lack of racial and ethnic diversity unseen for decades

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/trump-judges-courts-race/index.html


Yup, make America white again......
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 2, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 2, 2017 - 06:23pm PT


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 2, 2017 - 06:25pm PT
Are those DMT's relatives...?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
It's the Republican's fault:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/opinion/sunday/republicans-broke-congress-politics.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 2, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
It will be good for me, as a registered Republican & a member of the Trump Advisory Board, to hear from Trump supporters on why they believe passage of the new Tax-reduction bill is going to help them, or America?

I am curious?
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 2, 2017 - 10:06pm PT


The peasants are revolting.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 2, 2017 - 10:10pm PT
Fritz...If you talk to Donald can you ask him which famous pussy he's grabbed...I'm a big fan of his...rj
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 2, 2017 - 10:11pm PT
They were pretty clear it was about maintaining funding from their corporate masters.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 3, 2017 - 09:58am PT



WaPost

I’m on Trump’s voter fraud commission. I’m suing it to find out what it’s doing.

By Matthew Dunlap
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
http://www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-disclosure-form-west-bank-settlements-israel-white-house-729290

Policy issues:

#1: conflicts of interest in foreign diplomacy
 USA envoys brokering foreign conflicts should preferably not have an interest in promoting either side of the conflict
 any such interests or involvements must be disclosed
 any such interests or involvements must not have been deemed illegal by UN or international court

#2: consequences for material omissions in job application
 Most jobs you can be immediately fired when they discover a misrepresentation on your application.
 When the misrepresentation has direct consequences for international armed warfare and potential loss of USA lives in war, it should be considered treason against USA. Taxpayers have huge financial liabilities and many families can lose their loved ones because of this material omission.

#3: Care of duty for managers
 In USA, if you are a manager of an employee who through misrepresentations or omissions causes damage to the firm, the manager is responsible for taking corrective action to protect the firm. There is a care of duty obligation, and boards of directors fire CEOs when they do not hold other managers accountable for their behavior that injures the firm.
 Should these principles be enforced in our government, and how to do it such that it does not become a tool for partisan flip-flopping of administrations that stops the effective administration of government? For example, one can argue Trump is not fit for duty solely based on this decision of letting Kuchner remain in his role after these issues have come to light. Maybe it is right, but would this lead to other cases where it was less clear and it blocked governance by partisan invocation of these rules?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 3, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
Unethical conflict of interest seems to be the primary criteria for employment in Trumps stinking Swamp...Kushner forgot to fill out the form properly...? Priceless...LMAO
dirtbag

climber
Dec 5, 2017 - 06:31am PT
It looks like John Connyer will not seek re-election. Leadership including Nancy Pelosi have actually urged him to resign. Connyer has served for decades and is a bit of an icon in the Democratic Party.

Meanwhile, republicans are welcoming the prospect of a pedophile, senator Roy Moore. Trump endorsed him, and McConnell is softening his opposition. He believes the women: well most of us do too, senator.

It’s all about tax cuts for the rich.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:12am PT
I am sure Kushner and his hubby Ivanka are actually progressive. The turd in the punch bowl is Jared's ultimate goal of bailing out his family fortunes cuz money trumps country every time. All these secret Russia and Saudi meetings has private money as the ultimate goal. Do ya think it conflicts the dude?

Latest scoop is Trump starting his own private intel group with Eric Prince who is "Freedom of Choice" Devos brother
dirtbag

climber
Dec 5, 2017 - 08:36am PT
Donald jr. and kushner are f*#king idiots. Both are dumb as a stump.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 5, 2017 - 11:00am PT

WaPost

American Jews Vs. Israel

By Richard Cohen Opinion writer December 4 at 7:23 PM

When I was a kid, I went door to door in my neighborhood, asking for donations to the Jewish National Fund, best known then for its Israel forestation program. At the age of 11 or so, I imagined myself a regular Johnny Appleseed, responsible for vast forests. My neighbors were easy pickings. No one asked about the occupation of the West Bank, the civil liberties of Palestinians, the awesome political power of intolerant ultra-Orthodox Jews or the appalling mendacity of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It was a different time. If I went to my neighbors today, my imaginary grove might be barren.

Of all the divisions regarding Israel — Arab vs. Jew, etc. — maybe the most consequential in the long run is the widening gap between American Jews and the policies of the Netanyahu government. This does not mean that American Jews — largely Democratic and liberal — no longer support Israel. They do. But that support is conflicted, fraught with worry and dismay, and, increasingly among the younger generation, sometimes barely existent.

The Israeli government proceeds as if none of this matters. Its preoccupation, naturally enough, is with its domestic constituency — the voters of the upper Galilee and not the donors of the Upper West Side. Not only don’t American Jews vote in Israel, but as Israel’s Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely dismissively put it, they don’t serve in the army, either. Just as important, the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, and they resent the hold that the very religious have over Israeli political life. As we see with Sunni and Shiite Muslims, interreligious fights are the most ugly.

For moderate or liberal Jews — in other words, for the 76 percent who did not vote for Donald Trump — Israel has become like a relative who always has to be explained. While religious restrictions matter a great deal, the overriding issue is the future of the West Bank — whether, along with the Gaza Strip, it will comprise a future Palestinian state or whether Israel will simply swallow it. This is usually called a one-state or a two-state solution. Another way of putting it is whether Israel will remain a Jewish democracy or will need to repress a Palestinian majority far into the future.

The one-state solution is where the government seems headed. At the close of his last election campaign in 2015, a panicked Netanyahu vowed that he would not permit the creation of a Palestinian state. (Previously, he had hinted he might.) Netanyahu had clearly caved to the so-called settler movement, which wants more and more West Bank settlements, eventually foreclosing any chance of creating a Palestinian state. The drift toward one state is a reason former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak recently called the Netanyahu government “irrational, bordering on messianic.”

Barak wrote that in a New York Times op-ed piece. He was even stronger a bit later in remarks to the Israel Policy Forum, which largely shares his views. Several times he referred to Israel’s loss of “the moral high ground” and the effect that this is having on Jews everywhere. “We are losing the next generation,” he said.


Barak is a unique figure. He is a former minister of defense, a onetime chief of the general staff and, not incidentally, the most decorated soldier in Israel’s history when he retired from the army. He is a former commando.

But he is also somewhat typical. He is one of many retired generals or intelligence chiefs who favor a two-state solution. These are men who would not trifle with Israel’s security, and so when Netanyahu argues, as he has, that a Palestinian state would become a terrorist enclave, Barak and others insist otherwise. They can handle the situation.

In the meantime, Israel is increasingly criticized. On American campuses, it is routinely accused of being a racist and colonial power. Not so. But American Jews on those very campuses find it harder and harder to mount a defense. The continuing occupation of the West Bank and the Trumpian persona of Netanyahu leave them mute. Jeremy Ben-Ami, head of the liberal pro-Israel group J Street and a frequent campus speaker, finds that many college students feel a contradiction between what they believe are Jewish values and the policies of the Netanyahu government.


Back when I was going door to door for the Jewish National Fund, Chaim Weizmann was Israel’s president. He was a monumental figure whose autobiography, “Trial and Error,” is both readable and prescient. On page 462 he wrote, “I am certain that the world will judge the Jewish State by what it will do with the Arabs.”

Alas, not just the world is doing so, but American Jews are as well.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
How can governments reduce expenses and improve health for homeless folks that have various mental/physical problems?

https://www.scpr.org/news/2017/12/05/78519/report-la-homeless-housing-experiment-paying-off/
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1694.html

"Housing for Health (HFH), a division within the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services (DHS), was established to provide supportive housing to DHS patients with complex medical and behavioral health issues who were experiencing homelessness. "

Key Finding

 Clients' use of public services, especially medical and mental health services, dropped substantially, including emergency room visits and inpatient care. Costs, correspondingly, also decreased.
 Across all the services examined, the associated costs for public services consumed in the year after receipt of supportive housing declined by close to 60 percent.
 Participants' self-reported mental health functioning improved after receiving housing, though self-reported physical health was largely unchanged.
 Although the number of individuals arrested and the number of jailed arrests decreased during the year after receiving housing, the number of jail days increased following PSH entry by an average of 2.76 days.

Recommendations
 The program should continue, with close monitoring of the longer-term costs and benefits.
 Further studies should examine whether the HFH PSH model is effective for populations other than those currently targeted by the program.
 We recommend a more rigorous study, such as the use of a comparison group, to more confidently conclude that the decreases in service utilization and costs are due to the HFH PSH program.
 Increased incarceration costs due to the increased length of jail stays over time should be examined to determine how this might potentially inform recruitment and retention strategies and influence longer-term program effects.
 We recommend gathering data from a broader range of service providers to examine the broader societal impact of the HFH PSH program model.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:12am PT
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administrations-proposed-tipping-rule-raises-fear-legal-wage-theft-190600015.html

Now he is trying to screw over servers and bartenders. Sad.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:38am PT
What I've been doing for the past year or so is writing "This is a personal gift, not a tip" on a separate slip of paper and tipping in cash only.



Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:48am PT
The sad thing is there are folks that are not in the 1% - narcissistic category that support this type of government. No morals, ethics or critical thinking on their part; it really is just about a team.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 6, 2017 - 10:27am PT


WaPost

The richest 1 percent now owns more of the country’s wealth than at any time in the past 50 years

From 2013, the share of wealth owned by the 1 percent shot up by nearly three percentage points. Meanwhile, wealth owned by the bottom 90 percent fell over the same period.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 6, 2017 - 11:21am PT
in other news: House impeachment vote failed at 364-58. so why again should I ever, ever, ever vote Dem again?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 6, 2017 - 12:16pm PT


The TRUMPETTES !
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
Dec 6, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
On the Democrat side we have house and Senate members insisting that their colleagues resign or retire based on credible allegations of harassment.

On the Republican side, we have a confessed predator endorsing a child molester.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 6, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
if the molester-in-chief and his kind are so bad, then what of the enabling behavior on the part of the Dems, Locker? Seriously though, we blame all the people that enabled Weinstein, Epstein, Spacey, etc., but now we ignore the fact that our elected Dem officials (Hoyer, Pelosi) continue to enable the morally corrupt sick POTUS but are willing to don the white cloak of decency and boot out Conyers, Franken....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 6, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
364 - 58
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:31pm PT
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/8-countries-call-for-un-meeting-on-jerusalem-trump-announcement/

Eight countries opposed to President Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital have asked for an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council this week.

Sweden's U.N. Mission said the eight nations have asked Japan, this month's council president, to have Secretary-General Antonio Guterres brief the 15 council members.

The eight council nations that requested the meeting are Bolivia, Egypt, France, Italy, Senegal, Sweden, United Kingdom and Uruguay.


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 6, 2017 - 03:40pm PT
LOCKER.... you really do have a potty mouth.

Is your mother proud of you?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 6, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
BraveCowboy asks of Locker

if the molester-in-chief and his kind are so bad, then what of the enabling behavior on the part of the Dems, Locker? Seriously though, we blame all the people that enabled Weinstein, Epstein, Spacey, etc., but now we ignore the fact that our elected Dem officials (Hoyer, Pelosi) continue to enable the morally corrupt sick POTUS but are willing to don the white cloak of decency and boot out Conyers, Franken.


I don't get the question, help me out?

How are the House Minority Party leaders Pelosi and Hoyer enabling Donald Trump?
What behavior are they doing to encourage more of Trump's sexual harassment stuff?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 6, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
A bit of an in-depth article, but the best I've seen on the deliberate strategy of the GOP of the last 30 years to manipulate the public to vote against their own interests:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2009/01/26/two-santa-clauses-or-how-republican-party-has-conned-america-thirty-years
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 7, 2017 - 11:35am PT
A great article about how Progressives make good the enemy of perfect, and do things like elect Trump:

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/07/atlanta-mayor-bottoms-progressives/

BOTTOMS WAS THE ESTABLISHMENT Democrat in the race from the beginning. She was supported by the Democratic Party. She was endorsed and supported strongly by the previous mayor, Kasim Reed. She was supported by much of the black establishment in Atlanta. Bottoms, on policy matters, is not Democratic Socialist. She’s not a Berniecrat. She’s not an activist. To my knowledge she’s never been arrested in a protest. She’s not a radical. She’s a mainstream Democrat.

For too many progressives, that makes her and anybody like her persona non grata. Now, in a political race where candidates whose policies and positions and history are more progressive than hers, by all means, support the most progressive candidate. Before the runoff, for many, that was Fort. He lost. It wasn’t even close. And between Bottoms and Norwood, the most progressive candidate was clearly Bottoms.

Between the two available options, Bottoms clearly best represented the positions and policies and people progressives should care about most. Yet at every single mention of her on Facebook or Twitter seems to get pushback from the left; some progressives will call her supporters a sellout, say they are supporting the Democratic establishment, and ask if they are being paid by the Democratic National Committee.

This is foolish. They speak as if the more progressive option was to support Norwood. It wasn’t – at all.

Keisha Lance Bottoms is not perfect. Hell, if you thought Vincent Fort was perfect you probably aren’t from Atlanta. But I have to be honest with you: Hating good candidates because they aren’t perfect is getting old. Critique their policies. Investigate their decision making and financing. Do those things! But when a race comes down to a left-leaning Democrat and a right-leaning conservative, stop pretending like they are one in the same. Stop acting like the Democrat has cooties. Stop acting like you are so holy that you can’t lower yourself to vote or support a person endorsed by the establishment.

This type of thinking loses important elections and puts real people in harm’s way.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 11:37am PT
^^^This.

For some on the left, “compromise” is a dirty word.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
norton they are enabling by refusing to impeach on the basis of his proudly described sex assaults of (married) women.

by refusing to condemn POTUS as unfit they are implicitly encouraging his operation as normal....

is that hard to follow?


to be fair, you must be content with the "sit on one's hands" approach to dealing with the damage wrought on our nation. it must be nice. for you.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 02:18pm PT
No, Democrat is the dirty word, dirtbag.


dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:04pm PT
What party is a VIABLE alternative?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
White House: Trump has scheduled a physical, and his slurred speech was caused by a dry throat

President Trump slurred his words during a policy address about Israel, inspiring media speculation that he may have had a dental or health problem. “The president's throat was dry, nothing more than that,” press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said.


A dry throat does not caused slurred speech, no matter what Dr. Sanders says.
We'll see how the GOP deals with his stroke.....and you don't get a physical for a dry throat.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
a unity party of moderates from both sides dirtbag. think hickenlooper-kasich. I know it is tough to get out of the two party rut, but when both poles smell like trash....they are.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
A dry throat does not caused slurred speech, no matter what Dr. Sanders says.
We'll see how the GOP deals with his stroke.....and you don't get a physical for a dry throat.

Interesting that you, as a physician, think it could be a stroke. That was my thought as a layperson.

Of course, we would never see a medical report stating such.

Cowboy: the Democratic party has its problem, but it’s not nearly as bad as you paint it. I’m receptive to your idea about a party of moderates but in the short run, the Democratic Party is the only viable party that can check the republicans.

I would not vote for impeachment yet either.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 7, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
Somebody call a doctor!

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 8, 2017 - 10:39am PT
Interesting that you, as a physician, think it could be a stroke. That was my thought as a layperson.


The only other thing that I've commonly seen producing slurred speech is an overuse of alcohol or other drugs.

I've wondered what drugs the President consumes? Some of his behavior makes me think he uses stuff regularly.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2017 - 10:44am PT
I’m on a stout course of Percocet right now and i’m not slurring my speech! I’ve found it doesn’t affect my intardnet chess playing as much as I thought it would. 🤓
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2017 - 11:02am PT
Ken:

Have you considered this? It’s more plausible than a stroke or addiction.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trumps-slurred-speech-tied-to-low-battery-in-putins-remote

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
It’s the generator’s fault those morons are dying?
It’s amazing they were smart enough to start it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 8, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
I wear ear plugs when i run my honda indoors...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 9, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
Have you considered this? It’s more plausible than a stroke or addiction.

Ha!
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 9, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
Warning: this is a graphic execution

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/12/09/black-lives-matter-supporters-call-attention-graphic-video-arizona-shooting

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/8/16752914/police-arizona-philip-brailsford-daniel-shaver


This officer was recently acquitted.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 11, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
ah yes, Jimmy Dore

highly insightful intellect, so binary, so deep..

"Given her record of bloodlust warhawkism, there is good reason to be more afraid of Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump."[10]

"You do not owe her your vote. Hillary Clinton is not the Democratic Party -- You are the Democratic party. You do not owe anybody your vote. She has got to earn your vote . . . We're not letting neoliberals f*#k over the Democratic Party anymore."[11]

Since the 2016 presidential election, "Jimmy Dore has lit into Democrats for blaming hackers for their loss, raised doubts about the credibility of intelligence agencies, and seen the heavy hand of war hawks hyping the Russia connection to destabilize Europe and the Middle East," according to the Washington Post.[12] Since Trump's inauguration, Dore "has zeroed in on corporate media and the hypocrisies of Democrats, rather than taking on Trump," according to Truthdig.[8]
wiki
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 11, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
Serious question...

Did Trump go to elementary school???...

of course! why, Donald's own hand selected national security advisers recently said Donald has the "brains of a kindergartener" sic
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 11, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
Look at some videos of Trump speaking in the 80’s and 90’s—his mental decline is startling.




https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/23/donald-trump-speaking-style-interviews/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/08/569118310/tax-bill-favors-adding-robots-over-workers-critics-say

Interesting discussion of investment in automation equipment vs training people for dealing with hi-tech equipment.

And more agreement that taxing the received value of education for grad students (which historically has not been taxed in part because they get low salaries compared to their non-academia peers) is a bad idea. Here's another perspective on that:
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/12/11/16751570/gop-tax-bill-grad-students

And why should university endowments (for non-profit higher education) be taxed when politicians can have non-profit charities in their name and funnel around money for their personal use without being taxed? This is a ridiculous dichotomy that lays bare the values and agenda of the group pushing it forward.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
Re: the speech slurring....

I used to have a job where I was often up on stage giving presentations or speaking on panels at industry conferences. After extreme sleep deprivation with my first child, I remember a time or two being slow to comprehend what some participants were asking me, and slurring my speech almost like a drunk person because my brain was fried.

If that was the source (sleep deprivation), it would be consistent throughout the engagement, not an abrupt onset partway through speaking.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 11, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
Cuban aristocrats jamming his brainwaves with subterranean dog whistles?

WOOf WOOf

OT, but why is there a South Pass and no North Pass and neither a South nor a North Alhambra?


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 11, 2017 - 08:42pm PT
Trump's slurred speech is from the chomped GMO corn stuck between his teeth...Sara Sanders usually flosses Donald and in turn Donald gropes her...
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 11, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
The low spark of high-healed boys (and girls)

Dennis Rodman? if lye to ya has a voice, then why not The Worm

Dennis Rodman, self-described “friend for life” of North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un, says he knows what the man he calls “The Marshal” wants from the U.S. But he’ll only tell Donald Trump what that is.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 11, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
As Newsweek reports: This was a long-time coming, but who deserves the honor more than Judge Roy Moore!

Robert Warren Ray, an avowed white supremacist who writes for Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website that has been kicked off over a dozen domains after the violence that transpired in Charlottesville, Virginia, this August, endorsed embattled Republican candidate Roy Moore on Monday. His reasoning? Moore, who faces allegations of sexual misconduct from eight women, in some cases from actions he allegedly took against them as teens, quoted Adolf Hitler “correctly.”

Ray was also elated by Moore telling the hosts of the radio show that getting rid of constitutional amendments after the tenth would “eliminate many problems” in the country. Eliminating these amendments, Ray notes, would, among other things, limit voting in America to an activity practiced only by white men.

“No more women and n-----s voting!” Ray wrote. “No more misquoting Hitler!"

http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-lands-neo-nazi-endorsement-election-correctly-quoting-hitler-744947
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 11, 2017 - 10:20pm PT
Jim?
You're wrong.

That's a safe retort in this thread.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 12, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Moore/Pence should run for president of Gilead.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 12, 2017 - 07:34am PT
Rodman channel update

DENNIS RODMAN SAYS TRUMP AND NORTH KOREA'S KIM JONG UN ARE 'PRETTY MUCH THE SAME'
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 13, 2017 - 11:46am PT
Alabama election result seen as ‘miracle’ in a Europe horrified by Trump

Roy Moore’s defeat in the Tuesday special election may have come as a relief to liberal Americans, but in Europe it was taken as a sign that the United States has not totally lost its moral compass.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 13, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
Janet Yellen, America’s first female Fed chair, finishes to ‘standing ovation’

One of the most powerful women in the world is closing out her tenure with a track record that arguably puts her among the best leaders the Federal Reserve has ever had.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 13, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
There's no real difference between the two parties:


http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/joe-biden-consoles-meghan-mccain-cancer/index.html
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 13, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
Must have been a tough choice

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/politifact-names-trump-claim-that-russian-election-interference-is-made-up-as-lie-of-the-year/ar-BBGF4Et?li=BBnbfcL
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 13, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
and KellyAnn Conway's "Alternative Facts" has been named phrase of the year
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 13, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
"Alternative facts" is my personal favorite.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 14, 2017 - 06:31am PT
Alternative facts...The phrase that pays...Repubs started their latest alternative facts propoganda campaign whining that the Russian investigation is tainted by Democratic FBI agents that don't like Trump..Lifes unfair...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 14, 2017 - 07:40am PT
They never could understand American politics.

That's because we don't have politics, we have elections. That's what confuses them.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 14, 2017 - 08:22am PT
Good morning, here is an article to make you feel warm and fuzzy about our government: trump has done absolutely nothing to prevent future Russian interference in our elections, because his ego is butt hurt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/national-security/donald-trump-pursues-vladimir-putin-russian-election-hacking/?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_trumprussia%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c0ca929960bb


Of all the possible impeachment theories I’ve heard, his dereliction of duty in protecting his country from future interference might be the most egregious.

Oh yeah, it appears we are still slowly creeping towards war on the Korean Peninsula. Hello...congress? Are you there?

Trump’s temperament and character remain the most important looming issues.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 14, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
Merry Christmas from Trump, the GOP Congress and their Corporate Employers. They are feeling extra generous after determining their own Christmas Bonus.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 14, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
























]















Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
The Twitteratti are dropping hints that something is about to drop. Not saying what, but the most guessed "what" is a arresting of Junior Trump. It's already 6pm in ESTzone, but well.....I guess we'll be hearing something either in the next couple hours.

Someone suggested "they"(someone(s) from top tier Trumpland) are gonna make a run for the Russian consulate(meaning get there to gain protection from arrest). Don't know the credentials of the person who posted that, but I have to say it would serve the fkers right to have to live out their days in a dark room in the Russian Embassy. Better yet - to have those doors slam and be dead-bolted on their fat red noses.

And....In The Daily Beast news - "CIA reportedly captured Putin’s "specific instructions" to hack the 2016 election"
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 09:18am PT
Filling positions based on political affiliation, even when they are embarrassingly unqualified while opposing parties have had qualified candidates waiting for years. This video example is painful to watch. Imagine a judge that doesn’t understand what the lawyers are saying and has no experience as a lawyer working in a courtroom. Well, you don’t have to imagine it. Just watch.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Choosing people based on merit rather than their political party. That would make a major difference in making America great. Failing to do so is a recipe for disaster.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:25pm PT
Amazing how quickly the Left forgets how Bill Clinton debased the office of President over sexual misconduct. Oh, and the flagrant lies. Of, and the perjury under oath. Oh, and the ridiculous parsing of what "is" means. And on and on.

Pot calling kettle.

Trump is apparently just striving toward the lofty standard set by slick-Willy. But that's a hard act to follow!
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 15, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
What exactly is your argument?

Liberals are hypocrites?

Two wrongs make a right?

We should just shut up, smile, accept that Trump won the electoral college so everything is just A-OK, and we deserve to watch impotently while Trump debases our country because we may have supported Bill Clinton 18 years ago?

You are mentally ill?

All of the above?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 15, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
Whataboutism gone wild.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 15, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
There is no way you can even make this sh*t up...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cdc-gets-list-of-forbidden-words-fetus-transgender-diversity/ar-BBGNo02
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 15, 2017 - 08:41pm PT
^^^^

The Trump administration is prohibiting the Centers for Disease Control from using the terms “science-based” and “evidence-based” because who needs science or evidence when studying disease.

The CDC is also prohibited from using the words: vulnerable, transgender, diversity, fetus, entitlement and Russia.


I made that last one up, but who knows what’s next?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 15, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
Fritz once again, bows his head in shame & shuffles his feet.

I need to confess to being away from Supertopo for the last couple of hours, on a prime Friday night of spewing here.

It's all Heidi's fault!

She found a rerun of the 1992 action classic, Last of the Mohicans, on HBO.

So, for the first time since seeing it in a theatre, I watched it without commercials on our sorta-big-screen TV.

Christos! That movie & its soundtrack, just sends me into the gud old daze!

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 16, 2017 - 06:49am PT
A new day & new Trump White House stupidity! A list of forbidden words given to the CDC.

Policy analysts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta were told of the list of forbidden words at a meeting Thursday with senior CDC officials who oversee the budget, according to an analyst who took part in the 90-minute briefing. The forbidden words are "vulnerable," "entitlement," "diversity," "transgender," "fetus," "evidence-based" and "science-based."

In some instances, the analysts were given alternative phrases. Instead of "science-based" or ­"evidence-based," the suggested phrase is "CDC bases its recommendations on science in consideration with community standards and wishes," the person said. In other cases, no replacement words were immediately offered.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 16, 2017 - 09:18am PT
I'd like to add to the list...Collusion , Russia , Doug Jones , and maybe sexual assault...?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 16, 2017 - 09:36am PT
the sheer as#@&%ery of this administration knows no bounds.
WBraun

climber
Dec 16, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
LOL ......
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2017 - 09:02pm PT
The "drop" that time seemed to be the whole Team Trump dawned awareness that the Mueller Team had all their emails. Well before any of the interviews were done. You did notice the "outrage" over "illegally obtained emails" in the news this weekend, no?

And the reply? The one that went: "“When we have obtained emails in the course of our ongoing criminal investigation, we have secured either the account owner’s consent or appropriate criminal process,” Peter Carr, a spokesman for the special counsel’s office, said in a statement to The Hill."

Apparently, words carry weight, when said by those who actually use words to convey information. The IC'ers were all pretty much in agreement that the use on the term "crimimal," not once, but twice, and in the same sentence was a nod as to how strongly they feel the case they are building is.

Also being "no shit" ed that Jill Stein is going to be hit as a Kremlin agent, as being reported in mainstream news now, because these people were posting about that like months and months ago.

Also 20Committee has dropped a hint that several media outlets....well, here's what he wrote: "Some media outlets are under FBI/IC investigation for poss ties to Kremlin pals. It's not just Fox. I think I've already said too much. :)"

(edit: In case you didn't catch the subtlety, he just unofficially confirmed that Fox is under investigation.)

Laugh all you want, but these people have been on the mark from long, long ago.

Unfortunately, the word is also that patience is required because the roots are so deep, and so tangled. And that it is NOT just a GOP thing.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
DMT - Remember when the Target breach happened and I stumbled upon that Brian Krebs blog, and it turned out he was way ahead of that game, of detailing how it went down and who was behind it?

Well.... I stumbled again, and fell into the IC mosh pit. These people all have the credentials. They aren't just anonymous self-identified authorities. They have the bone fides.

Oh, and half of them are GOP, for anyone who is interested.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2017 - 10:55am PT
U.S. lifts research moratorium on enhancing germs’ danger

The government lifted a three-year moratorium on funding for research into ways that certain viruses — including SARS, MERS and flu viruses — can be made more virulent and transmissible.


Gosh, I wonder what need is driving this research?

I'm reminded of the President's comment "what's the good of having nuclear weapons if you don't use them?"
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
If you are frustrated by Citizen's United decision and the flood of money that corrupts the political process, here is a creative way to protest:
https://www.stampstampede.org/pledge/

You can also see it as a jaded capitalist exploitation of people's frustration with the influence of capitalism (i.e. seeking to profit from these feelings). But you don't have to buy their stamps. Buy your own custom one:
https://www.google.com/search?q=stamp+make

Or make one with a dry sponge or a potato and an exacto knife.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 20, 2017 - 11:43am PT
So it looks like the tax plan is going to be passed.

Here's the thing: What it clearly is, is a giant scheme to use the borrowing power of the US to borrow vast sums, and turn it over to the rich, the ones pulling the strings. The GOP has done well.

The CLAIM that the enhanced financial activity will pay for it. Reagan said the same thing, did the same thing, and got a recession. GW Bush said the same thing, did the same thing, and got a HUGE recession. Guess what is about to happen?

When it comes out that the massive 1.5 trillion dollar deficit is going to be added to the debt (I think it will be more), and they can't balance it by cutting back on Medicare, Medicaid, and social security, what is the appropriate reaction?

Essentially, they will have taken action to deliberately weaken our country. They should be branded as traitors.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 20, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
It is hard to believe a 1/3 of this country still believes in trickle down economics.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 20, 2017 - 01:35pm PT


Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 21, 2017 - 08:14am PT
There aren’t that many of them—less than one percent.

But as you can see in the video, they need our help.

Be sure to thank your senator and representative for allocating more for such unfortunates.

Save the children . . .


[Click to View YouTube Video]





. . . so they can keep going to disco-tech-ahhs.



https://qz.com/1162388/corporate-pledges-of-2-billion-in-investment-after-trumps-tax-bill-are-likely-politics-not-economics/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 21, 2017 - 10:33am PT
conservatives who scream about the value of work

While conservatives may value work, the GOP certainly does NOT.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 22, 2017 - 10:53am PT
Trump’s ambassador to the Netherlands just got caught lying about the Dutch

Pete Hoekstra denied referring to parts of the nation as ”no go” because of the “Islamic movement,” telling a journalist that was “fake news.” Then the reporter showed a video clip of Hoekstra saying that in 2015.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 22, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
Any guesses on when the market crash dives? My guess is June 2019.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 22, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
You’re a tad more optimistic than me.

One year from now.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 22, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
It seems like it usually takes the Republicans a couple of years to f*#k up the economy, so I'm being a bit pessimistic.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 22, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
Sell in September. These thing seem to happen more often in October.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 22, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
NPR has a good explanation of what the Republican Tax cuts do for individuals in different income brackets.

In 2018


And after most of the individual tax breaks expire in 2025.


https://www.npr.org/2017/12/19/571754894/charts-see-how-much-of-gop-tax-cuts-will-go-to-the-middle-class

It sickened me to watch Republican Congressmen look into the TV cameras & talk about their Middle-Class tax-cut. It is a carefully calculated plan to keep Republican financial support from Corporate America & their wealthiest donors.

A couple weeks back, Republican Sen Graham specifically said: "financial contributions will stop" for the GOP if they didn't pass a tax cut.

It's not about the Middle Class, it's about pleasing the GOP donor base.





Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Dec 22, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
Gary-
Any guesses on when the market crash dives? My guess is June 2019.
Yes-Right after the Democrats take control of Congress allowing the Republicans and Fox News the fodder they need to trick dumb white folks all over again.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:27pm PT
How big a post card will I need?
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 22, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
What will class warfare look like in this country, I wonder. Once automation displaces large segments of society and no back-up plan has been enacted to compensate for this paradigm shift, what will happen? Will the rich get eaten, or guillotined like the French aristocracy? With all the guns floating around, what would true social upheaval look like in the US?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 22, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
All this talk about taxes brings to mind the current book by T.R.Reid "A Fine Mess" Here is his interview by Terry Gross on NPR:



GROSS: You talk about countries where everybody does their taxes in, like, 15 minutes because it's that simple.

REID: You know, I was in the Netherlands on March 31 - their tax day is April 1 - talking to a - you know, a manager. He makes about 200,000 a year. He has a whole panoply of investments, two kids in private schools, two mortgages. He'd have to fill out 12 forms in the United States.

And I said, Michael, how do you do your taxes? They're due tomorrow. He says, well, I pop a beer. I go online and see if the government's got the numbers right. And if they do, I hit a button. Takes five minutes. He says, but you know, sometimes I start checking the numbers. You - he says, you know, you start checking the numbers, it could take almost half an hour just to pay your taxes. He was outraged.

https://www.npr.org/2017/04/03/522440141/author-looks-to-other-countries-to-rethink-americas-complicated-tax-code

He has some very innovative ideas----already used in many countries----that could markedly improve our tax system.

I heard him describe in another interview about another country that sends you a card with the important numbers. If you agree, you do nothing, and you've filed your taxes.

The fact is, the gov't generally has all of the important numbers, already.

So here's my proposal: We use the "great experiment of the states", and take a blue state, like Calif, and completely re-write the tax code. You pay a percentage of your AGI off your 1040. That's it. No deductions, no credits, no nothing else. Revenue neutral.

In fact, change the tax day to May 1st, have the State collect the AGI off your federal return, and send you a bill. Your check is your tax return.

If California along did this, the other state residents would riot to have it. Eventually, we could have such a program at the federal level.

What we just passed was not tax simplification, only manipulation.

Boo Hoo, think of all the tax attorneys out of work.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 22, 2017 - 10:52pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 22, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
nah000

climber
now/here
Dec 22, 2017 - 11:52pm PT
Krease wrote: "What will class warfare look like in this country[?]"

at least with regards to the near and medium [25ish year] future, i suspect this is just "wish" or "cataclysm" desiring thought [depending on the perspective].

the human energy that might result in domestic class warfare has always been near impeccably turned towards the "other" through the u.s', at least, last 150 or so year history.

to think it would/could actually be turned towards the root of the u.s' love of amway style multi level marketing meets rent seeking structure ["i'm going to have my money make money for me"] is something held onto mostly by only the youthful and the romantic. [no disrespect intended if you are one of these: i hope your generation/heart proves me wrong]

and so my, admittedly somewhat cynical, heart suspects the successful salespeople will keep selling their pulled up by the bootstraps [tm] stories [because they are often in part true] while the new recruits will fail to see that the amway-mlm-like/u.s' corporatic-"democratic" structure is finely tuned to skim as much from the structurally necessary lower rungs on the pyramid [without causing outright revolt as is near-cataclysmically possible], and so it is a structural fact that due to no fault of their own, the mass of folks will be efficiently skimmed/stolen from until the day they die [even though this is in part also true].

and when the class pressures get really intense, one just needs to scare up some spooky 6:00 pm bedtime stories 'bout whatever "other" is on the menu du jour.



shIt if a nobel peace prize winner can order the murder of individual overseas americans and use tactics that statistically kill foreign civilians 50% of the time, there's not too much that americans collectively don't have the stomach for [as long as it doesn't happen on american soil].

and now that the corporatocracy/fcc just gave up net neutrality [which has as much philosophical grounding as letting fuel companies charge you less for gas only if you drive a ford or electricity suppliers charge you less only if you use sony... i.e. those who confuse google ads with net neutrality have as much understanding of what just happened re net neutrality as the mass of wo/men do re what is happening in syria right now] there is even less long term likelihood that we will collectively be able to move out of our dopamine and like driven perspective bubbles.



and so the u.s., as far as i can tell, will continue to walk a line that moves from just this side of outright social instability to being pulled back from the brink, as it has from the dirty thirties, to the upheaval in the sixties to the current flirting with economic instability due to the doubling down on repeatedly proven economic idiocy [rapidly increasing federal deficit/debt due to ballooning defense and tax cuts that primarily benefit the rich, while reducing social spending during a time of some of the largest economic inequality since the late 1920s]:




and that's because when it's not the "other" of the alcoholics, or the drug "fiends", or the "terrorists" [tm], or central american communists, or al queda, or isis, or the syrians, or the vietnamese, or the north koreans, or the iraqis, or the mexicans, or the ...

you needn't worry: there will always be a new boogeyman to keep you/us distracted.



and so yes, the current structural madness is nothing new, even if it is alarming in its newness.

and so the responding/reactionary madness will likely be nothing new, even if it will be equally alarming in its new and intentionally influenced projection/misdirection.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:25am PT
Isis , drug fiends , and the Nahoogeyman wall of text...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:23am PT
It's not about the Middle Class, it's about pleasing the GOP donor base.

Fritz, I'd love to see the donations made by these corporations to Democrats during the same period. Especially GS and the tech sector entities. Guarantee you they are far, far higher. To be fair, why don't you go ahead and provide. Your post is pure histrionics--something you are very good at--without any context.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:40am PT
For Lituya's "Gave more to Dem" inquiry:

Goldman Sachs: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=d000000085&cycle=2012 - A mixed bag, but 2008 was last year cited as having given more to D Party

General Eletrci: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000125 In 2016 cycle, gave about double the amount to R's that they gave to D's

You can easily search the information, since it is a matter of public record. Well, at least the legally made contributions are, so of course yo could always retort with a claim that they must be funneling the monies to D's secretly. Because, you know, when you have nothing, bluff.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:42am PT
Guarantee you they are far, far higher.

Actually, when you make the statement, it is up to you to provide the proof, not of someone else to provide evidence of your assertion.

How can you guarantee something of which you are ignorant?
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 23, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
this shyt here is pretty funny, if not entirely unexpected:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-reportedly-haitians-aids-nigerians-huts-article-1.3717535
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 03:29pm PT
Ken, take a look at the graph again. Who gives a f*#k about 1990? (Also, look at the source at the bottom right. Sanders campaign.) Fritz's premise was that Trump and Republicans were bought and paid for by the corporations listed in exchange for lowering the corporate tax rate. Nonsense. I suspect you're smarter than this--not sure about the others here. If Fritz wanted to make his case effectively, he should have posted donor data from relevant/recent election cycles. He didn't. My confidence level is 100% on this because, a.) Hillary Clinton took in more than 2x donations from corporations than did Trump; and, b.) Hillary's top donors, 7/10, were all hedge fund/financial/tech sector. Trump, 3 of 10. But by all means, please, continue hand-picking data and dragging it through the membrane of the bubble you live in. You have three more years of Trump to endure, and all the whining in the world ain't gonna change it.

https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=n00000019

https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?id=n00023864

By party, top contributors:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php


Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 23, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
Lituya, explain Scott Pruitt please. Talk about a corporate shill...
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
We will not be enduring Trump for three years, that much I can safely declare. While many would prefer he was already gone, his time is definitely coming. Legal process takes time, and only a fool would befollowing the goings-on of this situation and not realize that this is not "fake news" or a "democrat jealousy campaign."

I realized this morning that Brad Parscale hasn't seemed to have been interviewed by Team Mueller yet. I guess he's saving him to enjoy as an after-dinner aperitif.

If NOTHING else, Donald Trump is going to suffer either a very serious stroke or heart attack, and I'd wager than will happen within the next 8 months. While I don't wish ill health on anyone, it's impossible to look at video of the man and not see his state of health is a ticking time bomb.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 23, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
Lituya! Re your first complaint about my post, expressing my outrage over the Republicans pretending their tax-bill was done for the good of Middle-Class America, when it was actually done for the good of their corporate & wealthy donor base:

Your post is pure histrionics--something you are very good at--without any context.

Guilty as charged!

his·tri·on·ic

adjective: histrionic 1.
overly theatrical or melodramatic in character or style.
"a histrionic outburst"

synonyms: melodramatic, theatrical, dramatic, exaggerated, stagy, actorly, showy, affected, artificial, overacted, overdone; More
informalhammy, ham, campy

noun

plural noun: histrionics; noun: histrionic 1.

exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention.
"discussions around the issue have been based as much in histrionics as in history"

Thank you! I'm always happy to offend your limited sensibilities.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
We will not be enduring Trump for three years, that much I can safely declare. While many would prefer he was already gone, his time is definitely coming. Legal process takes time, and only a fool would befollowing the goings-on of this situation and not realize that this is not "fake news" or a "democrat jealousy campaign."

Not jealousy, rather, urban arrogance. And if you're spending too much time on CNN, well, this might explain your confidence.

In any event, as libs were so fond of reminding us while Obama was side-stepping the Constitution during his last four years, elections have consequences. So three more years it shall be. You'll survive. And if Trump meets the health fate you hope for (nice), then I'm ok with Pence. But be careful what you wish for. ;-
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
Not jealousy, rather, urban arrogance. And if you're spending too much time on CNN, well, this might explain your confidence.

I grew up in a Wisconsin farmhouse, and live half year in a cabin with no electricity and the other half in a van. This week I am doing a house sit so, voila!, I have been able to watch a television for the first time since 2014. To suggest I "spend too much time on CNN" is like me suggesting you get your news from Fox.

My confidence is in having a half a brain as to how things work. Now believe me, I am not entirely confident that our country won't be brought to its knees(and anyone who would wish for that, no MATTER their party affiliation) is naive and living the "it can't happen here" fantasy. But yeah, I am fairly confident that Donald Trump will not be the one handing over the White House keys in 2020.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
Oh and about Pence. He's not going to be the stand in, unless Trump goes down before Mueller bags him . Neither is Ryan, nor McConnell. The next in line who won't be going down the treason easel drain is Hatch.

If you don't know how this can be, perhaps it really is you who needs to broaden their sources of information. For what it's worth, I am getting mine from:
 Former Staffer at White House who has particiated in three presidential campaigns(D)
 Former prf at Naval Academy who was also head of Signals CounterIntel at NSA(R)
 Former member of Parliment
 NY Civil Rights Attorney(D)

to begin. I ain't partisan on the issue - I just have a half a brain. Donald Trump has been dirty since the 1970's and everyone(but a few, apparently) knows it.
WBraun

climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
Americans are bitching about these clowns while the US criminals the past few years spent 7 trillion dollars in those phony made up wars in the Mideast.

Good grief ......
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
If you don't know how this can be, perhaps it really is you who needs to broaden their sources of information. For what it's worth, I am getting mine from:
Former Staffer at White House who has particiated in three presidential campaigns(D)
Former prf at Naval Academy who was also head of Signals CounterIntel at NSA(R)
Former member of Parliment
NY Civil Rights Attorney(D)

Wow, you're pretty well connected for someone who lives disconnected. In a van. :rolleyes:

Oh and about Pence. He's not going to be the stand in, unless Trump goes down before Mueller bags him . Neither is Ryan, nor McConnell. The next in line who won't be going down the treason easel drain is Hatch.

Please, do tell! Sounds like you're privy to some sort of plot? How exciting!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
Who the hell are "you" to :roll eyes:?

At least there are a few dozen people on this forum who can actually confirm I am who I am. Is there a single other person on this forum who would post to confirm they have actually met you in real life

edit: as for any "plot," it's nowhere near as tinfoil hat or conspiracy theorist as you want to imagine. It's all very simple, and has already been shown: They each knew that Mike Flynn had been working with Russia while they publicly claimed to be unaware. They lied. To the FBI. To Comey. To the public. They covered up. They f*#ked themselves.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 10:34pm PT
edit: as for any "plot," it's nowhere near as tinfoil hat or conspiracy theorist as you want to imagine. It's all very simple, and has already been shown: They each knew that Mike Flynn had been working with Russia while they publicly claimed to be unaware. They lied. To the FBI. To Comey. To the public. They covered up. They f*#ked themselves.

Well, hey, you're the insider, right? If you would, please go ahead and give Mueller the green light.

If NOTHING else, Donald Trump is going to suffer either a very serious stroke or heart attack, and I'd wager than will happen within the next 8 months.

8 months? Are you sure it's not nine? or five? or thirteen? Did you get this information from a doctor that you know?

I am fairly confident that Donald Trump will not be the one handing over the White House keys in 2020.

Me too. It will take place on January 20th, 2021.

Who the hell are "you" to :roll eyes:?

At least there are a few dozen people on this forum who can actually confirm I am who I am.

Uhhhhhhhh, congratulations?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 08:00am PT
Is there a single (established as a known member of this community in real life)person who will come on here and vouch for you?

I didn't think so.

You know - when a person has an outlook in life that causes them to act out in snide, condescending, and generally assholish ways, that's an indication there is something wrong in their life. Happy people don't lash out at others on a continual basis. You're like the stressed out people I used to encounter in NYC when walking dogs. They would actually lower their tote bags, grocery bags, briefcases to "dog's head" level and (try to) smack the poor dog as they walked past. Happy people just don't do that.

So, why not give yourself the gift of life this holiday, and take a look at what it is in your life that has you so pissed off that you come onto a discussion forum filled with people who actually know each other, and act like, well, a very lite version of the faux president currently in office. Look at it good and hard, and analyze how you got into the situation you are in, and how you can get yourself out of it. Being angry and unhappy, or frustrated or whatever injury to your psyche it is that is paining you, is no way to go through the limited time one has on this planet.

unlocked gait

Gym climber
the range
Dec 24, 2017 - 08:12am PT
'appy. good morning.
you woke up again beautiful.

you exude, via your prose, compassion.
take care of others. take care of yourself.

do not bother to stumble on
broken souls such as litua.

theirs is a necessary ill journey.

let them, theirs.
continue on, ours.

and remember that we are joined
by millions of kind and humble folks
whom extend their heart outwards in love,

rather than collapse inward in fear like
the avatar that you've been jousting with.

every structure needs a weak path
in order to gather and expel the inherent stresses
that said structure collects.

whether this structure is a building or a society,
is immaterial. our society
needs weak people whom provide the necessary
path for the stresses to escape it.

keep the torch lit and lets march forth
ignoring the scum writhing on the periphery of
the valiant journey.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Dec 24, 2017 - 08:25am PT
Yes we can?
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Dec 24, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Yes, don't waste your time- The flat earthers will never yeild to your corrupt scientist, doctored photos and fake news.

They are especially entrenched and insulated via flat Earth news and the fact that they walk upon a flat Earth every day.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:42am PT
Is there a single (established as a known member of this community in real life)person who will come on here and vouch for you?

I didn't think so.

You know - when a person has an outlook in life that causes them to act out in snide, condescending, and generally assholish ways, that's an indication there is something wrong in their life. Happy people don't lash out at others on a continual basis. You're like the stressed out people I used to encounter in NYC when walking dogs. They would actually lower their tote bags, grocery bags, briefcases to "dog's head" level and (try to) smack the poor dog as they walked past. Happy people just don't do that.

So, why not give yourself the gift of life this holiday, and take a look at what it is in your life that has you so pissed off that you come onto a discussion forum filled with people who actually know each other, and act like, well, a very lite version of the faux president currently in office. Look at it good and hard, and analyze how you got into the situation you are in, and how you can get yourself out of it. Being angry and unhappy, or frustrated or whatever injury to your psyche it is that is paining you, is no way to go through the limited time one has on this planet.

Happy?Girl, thanks for your thoughtful analysis, but I'm quite content--and don't require validation of any kind. Apologies, I was unaware that posting opinions here required a sponsor. In any event, I would never hit a dog--but if this fits your view of me or of conservatives, well, so be it.

Re angry, well, right back at you. You should put this whole election thing behind you somehow and try to find a constructive outlet for your rage. Commiserating with like-minded angry folks on a "climbing" website is probably not the path. 4485 posts right here on this thread!

Anyway, a sincere Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:59am PT
Sparring with Happy Girl is kind of like beating up a kid off the short bus. Anyone getting their news off US media outlets is only getting dealt half a deck. We don't get the full story, we don't usually even get half the story. Speaking of.... https://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Government-Missing-21-by-Bill-Willers-Army_Fraud_Government_Government-Accountability-171221-929.html
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 11:09am PT
I don't pigeon-hole people by political party affiliation. NYC is highly Dem, and it's almost a certainty that most those attempted dog-hitters vote Democrat.

I also never considered you as "a conservative." What I saw was a poster who seemed to get their jollies out of being a jerk, cloaked behind the anonymous avatar.

If you stop to imagine, before posting, that the person you're replying to has the potential to be a coworker whom you enjoy working with, a neighbor whose hospitality you have enjoyed, or even - as is my case - a brother-in-law who happens to be pretty much the only member of my extended family who votes R, yet is an awesome human being, you might realize you would never communicate with people you actually KNOW that way, so why do it online? Because, just like yourself, most everyone on here IS a real person. So far as I know, ST hasn't got any sophisticated bots, and though it is possible you, or some others, are here as a paid mercenary, I doubt ST sits highly enough on the hierarchy to merit the cost involved.

As for me "putting this whole election thing behind" - guess what? I HAVE! If you think my fantasy is to somehow unwind time and make Clinton the president, you are mistaken. No....my hope is that the entire shebang of treason weasels - DEMS INCLUDED - gets kicked to the curb before it is too late. I don't WANT to find out what it is like to be a refugee wishing for my life that some country would take mercy on my ass and allow me residency. And I DON'T want to find out what civil war is really like. And I DON'T want to know nuclear war.

As for my rage - this isn't rage, and if you actually DID know me, you would know what rage I am capable of. And with that knowledge, you would not be dancing around me thinking my strike isn't going to be venomous, but keeping a polite distance and not engaging in, for lack of a better word, stupidtalk.

While there are definitely some low-level posters on this thread, there are also those with good insight and comments - of all political persuasions. And guess what? I KNOW some of these people, and ST is where I interact with them when we are not sushi-festing, facelifting, JT-wintering, Gunks summering or what have you. What is your connection here, if I may ask again? You just seem to be here from accidentally stumbling upon that shooting thread that was in your first post, and have stayed because you like being called out for being a yuck. Kind of like, again.... Dear Leader.

In closing, thank you for your holiday wish for me. I have been lucky to be doing a house sit for this week and the upcoming several days, and it's indeed a very nice thing. Hot showers, comfy seats to work in, friendly animals to care for, a real kitchen - a real baked ham tomorrow, with a bone for making pea soup! These are things (except for the good animals) I don't have in my daily life, and though I enjoy my chosen path very much, I am grateful for them.

Returning the Christmas cheer to you, with hopes for a happy 2018.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 11:10am PT
Studly - wow. I never knew you were a creepster.


Live and learn, and never forget.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 24, 2017 - 11:29am PT

Where all think alike there is little danger of innovation.

― Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 24, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
CBS NEWS reports this:

President Trump kicked off his holiday weekend at Mar-a-Lago Friday night at a dinner where he told friends, "You all just got a lot richer," referencing the sweeping tax overhaul he signed into law hours earlier. Mr. Trump directed those comments to friends dining nearby at the exclusive club — including to two friends at a table near the president's who described the remark to CBS News — as he began his final days of his first year in office in what has become known as the "Winter White House."


And they also mention this in the article:

The president himself on Sept. 13 — long before the bill was finalized — said the wealthy would not benefit from the GOP tax overhaul.

"The rich will not be gaining at all with this plan. We are looking for the middle class and we are looking for jobs -- jobs being the economy," Mr. Trump said.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-mar-a-lago-christmas-trip/

What a fine "Liar in Chief" we have.
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Dec 24, 2017 - 03:58pm PT
Can you imagine how scuzzy you'd feel after a weekend at marlargo? Probably like filming 12 hours of a bad porno with people with zits all over their asses.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 24, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Major creepster.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 24, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
Cosmic? I'm curious why you are spewing mean stuff on ST on the night you Christians believe Christ was born?

Considering your Christmas Eve post?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3044638/Go-Tell-it-on-the-MOUNTAIN
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
Because he is one of those "fake Christians" who claim thay are one so that they can bash people from a mount. They actually hate what Jesus stands for.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 26, 2017 - 07:06am PT
If Fritz wanted to make his case effectively, he should have posted donor data from relevant/recent election cycles. He didn't. My confidence level is 100% on this because, a.) Hillary Clinton took in more than 2x donations from corporations than did Trump; and, b.) Hillary's top donors, 7/10, were all hedge fund/financial/tech sector. Trump, 3 of 10. But by all means, please, continue hand-picking data and dragging it through the membrane of the bubble you live in. You have three more years of Trump to endure, and all the whining in the world ain't gonna change it.

The Democratic-Republican Party is the political wing of capitalism. The only differences between them relate to spoils not principles.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 26, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
We are headed for a huge correction/recession in 2-3 years. It will be worse than 2008. Nothing in the tax bill is sustainable long term. tRump and his ilk will pocket the short term profits, and the country will be left holding the bag (ala Bush II). They will try and hang it on the Dem replacement for tRump. The debt increase will not be offset.

If this country had half a brain, they would take that debt and invest it in education, not corporate welfare for companies already showing huge profits.

This country is in a very unhealthy loop.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 26, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
Pizzaman. Re your remark:
BTW, the tax cuts will be going primarily to the middle class


You really should not rely on Fox News to misinform you.

Here's a link to an article on the subject from NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/19/571754894/charts-see-how-much-of-gop-tax-cuts-will-go-to-the-middle-class

And from the article, a Tax Policy Center breakdown of 2018 tax cuts.

And again from the article, a Tax Policy Center breakdown of what happens to those tax cuts in 2025 when most of the individual tax cuts expire.


It sickened me to watch Republican Congressmen look into the TV cameras & talk about their Middle-Class tax-cut. It is a carefully calculated plan to keep Republican financial support from Corporate America & their wealthiest donors.

A couple weeks back, Republican Sen Graham specifically said: "financial contributions will stop" for the GOP if they didn't pass a tax cut.

It's not about the Middle Class, it's about pleasing the GOP donor base, which is primarily the ultra-wealthy & corporate America.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 26, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
Not much on the wage horizon for a pizzaface who can't deliver.

Trump doesn't order anything but greasy fast food and diet soda. That's working well for him, right?

Unfortuneately he has signing authority on the orders that are prepared for him. He doesn't even read them.



Teetering on catastrophe




Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 26, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
Pizzaman. Per your post & link:
Hmmm, NPR and whoever sponsors the "Tax Policy Center", I think this more unbiased entity shows that it is more beneficial to the middle class:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/21/how-the-tax-bill-will-affect-the-middle-class.html

The link goes to a post with this title, & only shows those affected by the tax cuts, by state.
Here's how the tax bill will affect the middle class in every US state

You are talking taxcuts for the Middle-class & ignoring the much larger tax-cuts for those making over a million dollars a year.

Are you moonlighting for the Koch brothers?

The political network affiliated with billionaire industrialists Charles and David Koch will launch a multimillion-dollar campaign to sell the just-passed GOP tax plan to voters ahead of the 2018 midterm elections.

The network, which is funded by hundreds of wealthy GOP donors, has already spent more than $20 million this year on pushing the bill — a top priority, which it worked on closely with the Trump administration.

Network officials say they will continue to make significant investments early in the new year for a "a full-scale nationwide education campaign" on the tax plan, which will permanently reduce taxes for corporations while cutting taxes for many individuals until 2025.

The campaign to sell the legislation, which polling shows is currently highly unpopular, will include TV, radio, and digital ads along with town hall events, seminars, workshops, phone banking, and door knocking.

A recent CNN poll found that opposition to the tax plan had grown by 10 points since November. Based on the poll, 55% of those surveyed oppose it and only 33% favor it, despite the investments from the Koch network and other Republican groups including 45Committee, American Action Network, and America First Policies to boost support for the bill.

James Davis, spokesman for the Koch network, said it's prepared to spend whatever it takes to move numbers on the issue, arguing that Americans right now know very little about the details of the legislation.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tariniparti/koch-network-to-launch-multi-million-dollar-campaign-to-try?utm_term=.vgWRzKPdR#.werg4XNvg
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 26, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
Pizzaman? Per your most recent reply?
No, no affiliation with with the Koch Bros. When I click the link, it brings up the middle class tax, as defined by CNBC, savings per state. Many high earning individuals in high tax states are considering moving because of the increases in their taxation.


a Tax Policy Center breakdown of 2018 tax cuts.
a Tax Policy Center breakdown of what happens to those tax cuts in 2025 when most of the individual tax cuts expire.

Do you have a problem with seeing that your beloved Republican Middle-class tax cuts, were much less, both in dollars & percents, than the ultra-wealthy received?

I'm mad as hell about the Republican "double-talk" on what economic class got the bigger tax cuts at the expense of a 1.5 Trillion ($1,500,000,000,000.00) increase in our National debt, which equals about $4,600.00 for each & every American.

And everyone who loves America, should be mad as hell too!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 26, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
Fritz, don't waste your breathe arguing with pizzaman. Just another delusional trumpite that believes the world is flat, though that kind of logic will no doubt put him on the short list for an appointment by the White House. There, you don't need qualifications. You only need to kiss the ring and swear your loyalty.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 26, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
Praise for the corporate cuts.

Still, myself--and most Republicans I know--could have done without the individual tax cuts. I think the middle class has been getting a pretty fair deal on the federal side. That said, I'm happy to see that Californians and New Yorkers will finally be paying their fair share as their ability to write off and foist their state burden upon the rest of us will now be more limited.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 26, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
^^^
Lituya, give me an effing break. You and pizzaman clearly receive your bogus arguments from the same cable network. Californians and New Yorkers have been subsidizing your red state butt for years.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 26, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
I understand you believe what you've been told. It might have even been true--a long time ago. Now carry on. Be happy. And pay up.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 26, 2017 - 09:12pm PT
So that Republican pledge not to raise taxes only applies to billionaires?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 27, 2017 - 07:16am PT
No Lituya, I deal with facts. You apparently deal with some other faux BS: “yeah, me and my republican pals were just sitting around talking and we don’t really want a tax cut for ourselves...”. Thanks for confirming that you’re a troll.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 27, 2017 - 07:36am PT
Like you said, fat dad: not worth it.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:09am PT
Lituya

Mountain climber

Dec 26, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
I understand you believe what you've been told. It might have even been true--a long time ago. Now carry on. Be happy. And pay up.



https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/


edit— businessinsider quote deleted because of typo in article

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:27am PT

Using results from the 2012 presidential election, WalletHub ranked each state from 1 to 50 — with 1 being the least dependent state and 50 being the most dependent state. Here's what they found:

http://www.businessinsider.com/red-states-more-dependent-on-federal-government-2015-7
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:51am PT
RE: Fritz/Lennox

The lack of understanding of this by the Trump folk is mind boggling...I have family in Bako living off large pensions provided by the feds/state/county govs and they are all anti-gov pro trump to the hilt. The fact that Bakersfield is the most conservative city in the Golden State and eighth most conservative in the country.
I have wondered why the minds of Bako work like this...at the root it could be lack of diversity? Plus, Bako folk see themselves as tough and well, we know where that will take you...

Or...

Cognitive dissonance is as strong as football and apple pie in parts of this country.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 27, 2017 - 10:05am PT
A believe it is a combination of willful ignorance and hyprocracy. The demon liberals are destroying the country with their bleeding heart giveaways and entitlements, but when the far right rely's on government assistance it is their birth right.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 27, 2017 - 10:30am PT
Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

For Trump voters anything that doesn’t confirm their bias is too painful to think about, so to them it can only be fake news.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 27, 2017 - 10:46am PT
Lennox, Fats, Fritz--reading comprehension is a difficult thing for you, I understand, when you're so wedded to your ideology. My post had nothing to do with federal inputs, rather, it was directed at high-tax states where folks like you get to deduct your high-tax choices on your federal returns. Why should the rest of the country get short-changed because CA and NY tax the sh#t out of their residents? Why should Washington State, where I live, subsidize choices made by you? Anyway, glad y'all could once again twist words to fit your worldview--and then commence the requisite libtard circle-jerk.

Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 27, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
You are still a leech.



It’s not just that some states are getting way more in return for their federal tax dollars, but the disproportionate amount of federal aid that some states receive allows them to keep their own taxes artificially low. That's the argument WalletHub analysts make in their 2014 Report on Best and Worst States to Be a Taxpayer.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/


And the elimination of the SALT deduction will hurt you in Washington too because it does not just relate to state income taxes. It also affects deductions of local income taxes, state sales taxes, local sales taxes and property taxes.

http://www.gfoa.org/sites/default/files/RCC%20Report%20on%20SALT%20Deduction-092017_Final.pdf

Show me a study with federal income taxes paid by states vs. dollars received by states corrected for all state, local and property tax deductions that shows how much Washington is getting fvcked by California and New York, or else just STFU and admit you just indiscriminatingly slurp up all the right-wing propaganda goo.

The truth is that we all just got fvcked-over by Trump and the Republican Congress so they could give a big gift to their corporate and mega-wealthy campaign donors. And the big fvck-you to blue states with the repeal of the SALT deduction might make your partisan nipples hard, but it won’t help Washington state and it will likely increase your tax bill.

So congratulations Lituya, like a good conservative, you are applauding another Republican con that works against your own best interests.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 27, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
Show me a study with federal income taxes paid by states vs. dollars received by states corrected for all state, local and property tax deductions that shows how much Washington is getting fvcked by California and New York, or else just STFU and admit you just indiscriminatingly slurp up all the right-wing propaganda goo.

The truth is that we all just got fvcked-over by Trump and the Republican Congress so they could give a big gift to their corporate and mega-wealthy campaign donors. And the big fvck-you to blue states with the repeal of the SALT deduction might make your partisan nipples hard, but it won’t help Washington state and it will likely increase your tax bill.

So congratulations Lituya, like a good conservative, you are applauding another Republican con that works against your own best interests.


Note there is a difference between self-interest and enlightened self interest.

You sound very angry Lennox. And a bit childish too. "Indiscriminatingly slurping goo?" Wow.

The good news, Lennox, is that it's never too late for you to go back and finish that two-year transfer degree. :thumbsup:

Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 27, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
You sound very angry Lennox. And a bit childish too.

Back atcha Lituya.

Why should the rest of the country get short-changed because CA and NY tax the sh#t out of their residents? Why should Washington State, where I live, subsidize choices made by you? Anyway, glad y'all could once again twist words to fit your worldview--and then commence the requisite libtard circle-jerk.


“enlightened” bwa ha ha!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 27, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
I still find it astounding that anyone, but the very rich, & the very deluded & stupid, could like & support the new Republican Tax Bill. The Associated Press has this to say about it:

It's a Christmas gift the middle class might want to give back in a few years.

The Republican tax overhaul bestows an initial infusion of cash on nearly every taxpayer next year. That extra income is likely to please millions of households, support consumer spending and perhaps give the economy a short-term lift.

Ordinary households should enjoy it while it lasts. Over the next several years, multiple analyses of the law have found, those tax cuts will gradually fade — and then morph into tax hikes for a majority of people who are solidly middle class.



The rising debt could eventually force spending cuts to social and educational programs that serve many who aspire to join the middle class. Trump and House Speaker Paul Ryan have both raised the prospect of reducing spending on social services next year, with Ryan specifically mentioning changes to Medicare.

Trump, Republican lawmakers and their allies are betting that higher take-home pay from the tax cuts will shore up public support for a law that poll show a sizable number of Americans view unfavorably. They also appear confident that ordinary Americans will have no objection if corporations and the wealthy receive the bulk of the tax-cut gains so long as middle class households, on average, also receive some benefits.

More than 80 percent of taxpayers will receive a tax cut in 2018, according to an analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

These tax cuts skew most heavily toward the top 5 percent of earners. This group — with incomes starting at $307,900 — would collect 42.6 percent of the tax cuts. By 2027, they would enjoy no less than 99.2 percent of the tax cuts.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxes/middle-class-faces-risk-of-fading-gop-tax-cuts/ar-BBHpYKf
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 27, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
Lennox... You could always get a PHD. like Lituya and work the drive thru window at Taco Bell...?
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 27, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Yeah I do kind of pity him rj; there’s not much of a market for a higher degree in PISD* except in fast-food and the Trump cabinet.




















*Proudly Ignorant Smug Derisiveness
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 27, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Lituya, did you figure in California's low property tax rates?

zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 27, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
It's the trickle down I tell ya.

If the state [California]

Was considered separately, it would rank as the sixth largest economy in the world, behind rest of the United States, China, Japan, Germany and the United Kingdom. The U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis reported that California's GDP was $2.5 trillion in 2015, up 4.1 percent from a year earlier.

Love it or leave it bitches
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Dec 27, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
I don' want nutin to trickle down on me bro!!!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 27, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
Why should Washington State, where I live, subsidize choices made by you?

This is a fair question.

In the case of California, we feed the nation. Part of the cost of that, is the State Water Project, which we paid for, but you did not. You get the benefit of that in the form of a vast diversity of available food, at cheap prices.

We also have Silicon Valley, which was built up in a somewhat deliberate way. It costs us in HUGE inflation of home prices in the Bay Area, which we pay, but you don't. You better be hoping that SV comes up with solutions to many problems that our country faces. I imagine you like computers.

I grew up in the Bay Area, so know it pretty well. I feel less comfortable discussing NY, but it immediately occurs to me that NYC is one of the financial centers of the world, from which we all benefit from a stable, trustworthy system. We all benefit from the Stock Market, and so do the companies that are listed on the exchanges.

These are pretty huge benefits, that have direct impact on the lives of all Americans, and without which we'd all be much poorer as citizens, no matter where we live.
WBraun

climber
Dec 28, 2017 - 08:00am PT
SO ........

Why is your obsession with Nixion STILL going on?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 28, 2017 - 08:53am PT
I agree with Ken— it’s a fair question, but I would also ask why those folks in California, New York and elsewhere will pay more when folks with greater income would get a break. One example: rich kids inheriting a boat load of money.

My taxes will likely go up, though I haven’t done the math. I actually wouldnt mind this if the “pain” would be spread more equitably. But it won’t be.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 28, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
Private prison investors set for giant windfall from Trump tax bill



“It’s going to be great for the investors, banks and hedge funds that own shares in private prisons, and are dependent on increased incarceration and criminalization,”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/28/private-prisons-investors-trump-tax-bill




CEOs in the U.S. and India earn the most compared to average workers.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-28/ceos-in-u-s-india-earn-the-most-compared-with-average-workers

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 28, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Trump White House Saw Record Number of First-Year Staff Departures

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-white-house-saw-record-number-of-first-year-staff-departures/ar-BBHreeD?li=BBnb7Kz

According to Kathryn Dunn-Tenpas, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who has tracked White House turnover rates over three decades, the Trump administration’s 34% turnover rate—21 of the 61 senior officials she has tracked have resigned, been fired or reassigned—is much higher than that of any other administration in the last 40 years, which is as far back as Ms. Dunn-Tenpas’s analysis goes. The presidency with the next-highest first-year turnover rate was Ronald Reagan’s, with 17% of senior aides leaving the administration in 1981.

“Not only is the percentage double, the seniority of people leaving is extraordinarily high,” said Ms. Dunn-Tenpas. “That’s unprecedented to me

I'm surprized White House turnover hasn't been higher than this currently record-setting pace. Just wait till next year, when the Trump-swamp empties enough to expose the skeletons.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 29, 2017 - 08:29am PT



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-28/trump-rolls-back-offshore-safety-rules-born-from-bp-oil-spill

Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 29, 2017 - 08:36am PT
This link has the full transcript of the NYT interview with Trump.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/trump-new-york-times-interview-transcript.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

This man is seriously mentally ill. The delusional grandiosity of his statements is truly bizarre.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 29, 2017 - 08:52am PT
I’ve read excerpts—I’ll read the whole thing when I work up the nerve to do it.

It’s horrifying to think he’s in charge of the most powerful nation on earth, and still shocking to realize that tens of millions of Americans think this self-centered babbling moron is fit for the job.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 29, 2017 - 09:24am PT
Methinks the Trump protests too much:

During an impromptu 30-minute interview with The New York Times at his golf club in West Palm Beach, the president did not demand an end to the Russia investigations swirling around his administration, but insisted 16 times that there has been “no collusion” discovered by the inquiry.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/trump-interview-mueller-russia-china-north-korea.html
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 29, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
Trump has a pet that masquerades as a trophy wife
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 29, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
A scorpion?



The Scorpion and the Frog

—A Parable for our Republic—

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drowning electorate’s back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Trump...
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2017 - 07:36pm PT

I don't know if this will work, as I pulled it off FBook, but it's good for a giggle. Unless, that is, you're still holding on the the DT idea for dear life. Then...probably not so funny.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2017 - 08:28pm PT
For some reason, my Screenshot thing isn't working, so bear with me(and if someone cares to make shots and post, that would be cool).

So here's Dear Leader's most recent post(as of this moment)


Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

Many reports of peaceful protests by Iranian citizens fed up with regime’s corruption & its squandering of the nation’s wealth to fund terrorism abroad. Iranian govt should respect their people’s rights, including right to express themselves. The world is watching! #IranProtests
10:42 PM - 29 Dec 2017


5,448 replies 6,896 retweets 21,759 likes



Buuuuuut.....

This is the post Saran Sanders, Press Secretary made 3 hours ago.


Sarah Sanders‏Verified account @PressSec

Reports of peaceful protests by Iranian citizens fed up with the regime’s corruption and its squandering of the nation’s wealth to fund terrorism abroad. The Iranian government should respect their people’s rights including their right to express themselves. The world is watching
7:52 PM - 29 Dec 2017

2,315 replies 5,889 retweets 16,584 likes

Can Trump supporters REALLY actually believe that it is normal and acceptable that the president, who supposedly is very proud of his speaking directly to his public via Twitter, and who DOES seem to understand how the ReTweet function works, copied his PS's post, changed the 1st words in each sentence and added a hashtag, and put it off as his own?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
In a word, Happi,


YES
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Dec 30, 2017 - 10:24am PT
24 false or misleading claims in a 30 minute interview. DON'T GASLIGHT ME DUDE!
TLP

climber
Dec 30, 2017 - 04:15pm PT
Iranian govt should respect their people’s rights, including right to express themselves.

...though interestingly he doesn't think it's OK for US citizens to do the same if they happen to be football players.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 08:57am PT
The most pressing issue is still the president’s fitness for office, highlighted again by this week’s racist and erratic behavior. Yet...we are likely stuck with him for three more years.


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/no-exit/550391/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 12, 2018 - 10:05am PT
Dirt, with all due respect, while the President’s propensity for self-parody is embarrassing
it doesn’t necessarily affect the meaningful issues. One of those, which seems to be flying
under the sh!thole radar currently, is the future of Social Security. I received a pre-publication
copy of Peter Diamond’s* latest paper. I can’t divulge anything but STAY TUNED cause this
IS important.

*The Nobel doyen of SS
dirtbag

climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
Dirt, with all due respect, while the President’s propensity for self-parody is embarrassing
it doesn’t necessarily affect the meaningful issues.

If we had a normal president, this would be true.

But all of the president’s many defects have already greatly affected domestic and foreign policy, in addition to damaging or destroying long established democratic norms of conduct.

I shudder to think how he will react when the sh#t (whatever the sh#t may be) hits the fan.

Trump’s character and fitness are the number one issues for the next theee years, at least.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
Trump’s character and fitness are the number one issues for the next theee years, at least.

Not necessarily. I would say there is more than a 10% chance that Trump does not serve all of first term.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 12, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
I shudder to think how he will react when the sh#t (whatever the sh#t may be) hits the fan.

On the one hand, I don't really expect the Trump administration to launch a military attack on NK, but if Trump fires Mueller, and needs a major distraction, can you really rule it out?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jan 12, 2018 - 05:20pm PT
Trump can't spell North Korea let alone find it on a map...But he's very stable...
WBraun

climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Oh for fuks sake!!!

You people are insane as Trump .....
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 12, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
I would think that the Republican party would love to get rid of Trump to avoid a bloodbath during the mid-term elections. He has caused numerous congressmen to resign. Most notable is Darrel Issa. I would love to see Trump survive long enough to destroy the Republican party

Issa was subjected to to the largest weekly protest in the country. Every Tuesday between 300 and 600 protesters would meet outside his office. he tried all sorts of ways to stop it. he tried to get the the city to revoke the permit, got deputies to ticket cars for every imaginable violation (think wheels not turned in on hill sort of thing) and even tried to rally counter-protesters. Now that he is retiring from the 49th district rumor is he is going after corrupt Duncan hunters seat in the 50th district, the protesters have promised to follow him there.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Jan 12, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
Trump is terrible; Pence would be worse. Trump's behaviour is unacceptable, and distracts people from the damage that he and his enablers are doing, largely out of sight. These are the people who want to shrink the government, so they can drown it in a bathtub. But Trump is still less effective at doing so than would be Pence, who is ideologically far to the right.

Unfit though he is, it's in everyone's interests that Trump remain in office, preferably as a lame duck, until at least the election later this year. Overall, it will lead to less damage.

Mueller seems likely to recommend charges against at least some of Trump's inner circle/relatives, whether for perjury, income tax evasion, money laundering, obstruction of justice, or treason. The Republicans, putting party ahead of country (unlike in 1974), will do as little as they can to bring Trump to justice, or put a leash on him. (Whether there are any viable charges against Pence being an interesting question.) Although many Republican politicians are increasingly seeing Trump as a liability.

The November election will change things, if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress. Should they win the house, an immediate motion to impeach seems a certainty. Whether there'd be strong enough grounds to get a 2/3 majority in the senate being the issue. It's possible that the Republicans would at that point cut their losses and cut Trump - if he didn't first resign out of pique.

A Trump impeached if not convicted late in 2018 or early in 2019, and one or both houses in Democratic hands, would limit damage until 2020. Successfully impeaching Trump would bring in Pence, who even facing congressional opposition would create a lot of problems in a year or two.

A wild card would be if Trump developed health problems, which given his age and lifestyle is not unlikely. Whether the cabinet would have the moral fortitude to invoke the 25th amendment being the question then. They seem unlikely to do so based on his mental condition.

The Chinese and Russians must be laughing robustly.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 12, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
Liberal masturbation fantasies require counseling.

I recommend "Madame Secretary" or reruns of "The West Wing."
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 13, 2018 - 07:57am PT
Trump is terrible; Pence would be worse. Trump's behaviour is unacceptable, and distracts people from the damage that he and his enablers are doing, largely out of sight. These are the people who want to shrink the government, so they can drown it in a bathtub. But Trump is still less effective at doing so than would be Pence, who is ideologically far to the right.

Spot on.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Jan 13, 2018 - 10:30am PT
https://theintercept.com/2018/01/12/the-same-democrats-who-denounce-trump-as-a-lawless-treasonous-authoritarian-just-voted-to-give-him-vast-warrantless-spying-powers/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 13, 2018 - 11:27am PT
DMT, interesting you bring up McClintock---previously untouchable. Perhaps not so this time.

I like Jessica Morse, a dem running against him this time.

10 years of experience as a National Security Strategist, a lifelong resident of the foothills.

An Outdoors Woman: Jessica grew up hiking, fishing, and hunting with her family throughout Northern California. An avid backpacker, Jessica has hiked the entire length of California’s 4th district - 500 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail from North of Tahoe to Mt. Whitney.

My former business partner was the guy who took over McClintock's Assembly seat when he retired, and I've always thought of McC as a pretty sleazy guy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 13, 2018 - 11:33am PT
I received a pre-publication
copy of Peter Diamond’s* latest paper.

And what are we to think of what Diamond says? On June 6, 2011 he withdrew his nomination to serve on the Federal Reserve's board of governors, citing intractable Republican opposition for 14 months.

So Republicans---that's YOU---reject his expertise. And now you want everyone to pay attention?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 13, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
Ken,
You are cordially invited to join my StuporTopo Reading Comprehension Class.
You'll be in good company so don't feel special. In the interest of
being more PC I have thought about naming it the Crankloon Faulty Assumption
Challenged Group but that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily. Perhaps I
should also start a group called Let's Label Everyone Rather Than Address
the Issues but that is also not very poetic. But I digress.

I'm not sure it is OK for me to post a few of the tidbits from said paper
but I will, even at the risk of being labeled overly non-partisan.

First, the bad news. Social Security will hit the wall sometime between
2029 and 2034, but who's counting? If yer under 50-55 you had better be.

Secondly, the good news. Oh, wait, there doesn't appear to be any because
the Democrats are so fixated on making noise than raising awareness of the
important issues that most affect their voting base. And why didn't the
Dems enact meaningful changes to SS to ensure its longevity when they had
a congressional majority? All these problems were foreseeable long ago.
We're talking like 1977 and 1983 when the last major adjustments were
legislated. Nothing happened under Clinton or Obama. Obama got his ACA,
why couldn't he have done something with SS?

Actually, there is a little good news in that there are a couple of proposals
on the table. One is by Sam Johnson, a Republican from Texas. He is the
Chairman of the Social Security Subcommittee of Ways and Means. John Larson
is the ranking Democrat there. Believe it or not they both offer sustainably
solvent solutions. Predictably, the Republican would not be as kind to
recipients as the Demo version but not so heinously as to preclude some
sort of compromise, IMHO.

What is really needed is rational and unemotional discussion (without
name calling, I might add). What I find ironic is that a minor cut in
the Pentagon's budget would go a really long way towards funding SS.
I fear that may shatter Ken M's impression of me as a Trumpite but I'll
try to live with that.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 13, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
Remember Al Gore's "Lock Box"- the thing conservatives love to make fun of? The premise was to use our budget surplus to shore up social security and Medicare. How dare he propose holding Revenue out of the markets when it can be doled out in tax cuts for the rich?

Since 1980, Republicans have increased the national debt through tax cuts for the wealthy that have been erroneously billed as GDP steriods and revenue-neutral at worst. What a fuking lie and the theory has been completely debunked by economist. Middle class and destitute dipshits keep falling the same repackaged cat sh!t.

Obama's early years were devastating in terms of deficits- He signed a 700 billion dollar bipartisan bailout, had to pay for two wars and he increased military spending by 200 billion because our Armed forces were at a breaking point. Meanwhile, the treasury was sucking air due to the Great Recession and decreased tax revenue.

Most progressives I know are willing to make hard choices to deal with Social Security and Medicare- but not in the backs of the people who actually need it.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jan 13, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
Mighty Hiker:
The Chinese and Russians must be laughing robustly.

Yes, according to Noam Chomsky "Most of the World is Just Collapsing in Laughter on Claims that Russia Intervened in the US Election".

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/03/most-of-the-world-is-just-collapsing-in-laughter-on-claims-that-russia-intervened-in-the-us-election-an-interview-with-noam-chomsky/

"Chomsky: My guess is that most of the world is just collapsing in laughter. Suppose all the charges are true, I mean every single one, it is so amateurish by US standards that you can hardly even laugh. What the US does is the kind of thing I described in Italy in 1948. Case after case like that, not hacking or spreading rumors in the media; but saying look, we’re going to starve you to death or kill you or destroy you unless you vote the way we want. I mean that’s what we do.

Take the famous 9/11, let’s think about it for a minute. It was a pretty awful terrorist act. It could have been a lot worse. Now let’s suppose that instead of the plane being downed in Pennsylvania by passengers, suppose it had hit its target, which was probably the White House. Now suppose it had killed the president. Suppose that plans had been set for a military coup to take over the government. And right away, immediately 50,000 people were killed, 700,000 tortured. A bunch of economists were brought in from Afghanistan, let’s call them the “Kandahar Boys,” who very quickly destroyed the economy, and established a dictatorship which devastated the country. That would have been a lot worse than 9/11. It happened: the first 9/11, it happened on September 11, 1973, in Chile. We did it. Was that interfering or hacking a party? This record is all over the world, constantly overthrowing governments, invading, forcing people to follow what we call democracy, as in the cases I mentioned. As I say, if every charge is accurate, it’s a joke, and I’m sure half the world is collapsing in laughter about this, because people outside the United States know it. You don’t have to tell people in Chile about the first 9/11."
nah000

climber
now/here
Jan 13, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
Yury: +1
nah000

climber
now/here
Jan 13, 2018 - 11:47pm PT
^^^^

yah, i'd say it's more like straight up bigoted argumentation...

which is ironic, as given what i've seen around the political threads, Yury is one of the more thoughtful people posting and is someone who, in general, is respectful and open to discourse, even if he holds polar opposite opinions to the people he's discussing with...



what's that saying about lawyers living in glass houses?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 14, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
That's almost a borderline racist/bigoted statement, MH.


Would that be the Russian race?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Jan 14, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
So, leaving aside the amusing and ironic question as to whether someone who calls himself Yury is Russian, and whether that is relevant to what he says about Russia...

Has the USA ever influenced or attempted to influence an election in Russia, at least in any way that is proveable? Beyond the usual general vague pieties about democratic norms and such? As DMT says, the USA has often meddled in other countries' elections, sometimes clumsily. And possibly security agencies have done so in Russia, although they're probably careful to cover their tracks. But attempting to overtly influence Russian elections?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 14, 2018 - 12:08pm PT
False alarm in Hawaii revealed an abdication of leadership by Trump

The president should have responded quickly to reassure Americans. He still has not directly addressed what happened Saturday, though the White House put out a statement making clear that the incident was the fault of Hawaii officials.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jan 14, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
Mighty Hiker:
There's abundant evidence that Russia put significant effort into trying to influence the 2016 US presidential election ...
Let's take a look at some numbers:
1. Putin spent ~$10,000.00 on Facebook ads.
2. Trump spent ~$200,000,000.00 on campaign ads.
3. Hillary spent ~$1,000,000,000.00 on campaign ads.
4. Progressive MSMs published ~$5,000,000,000.00 worth of propaganda materials during last presidential campaign.

At least to me these numbers are not consistent with "Russia put significant effort" claim.

To be effective these $10,000.00 should have been designed by marketing geniuses.
Considering lack of experience and amateurish character of Putin's propaganda (as compared to pro campaigns by Hillary and Trump) such claim of extreme Putin's effectiveness seems a BS to me.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Jan 14, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
Mighty Hiker:
Has the USA ever influenced or attempted to influence an election in Russia, at least in any way that is proveable?
Mighty Hiker, I understand that you may not trust me.
However such information is available on the Internet.
1. Please Google for "Victoria Nuland Ukraine". You will discover how States Department's Victoria Nuland flew to Ukraine to micromanage Ukrainian coup in February 2014. She had daily meetings with the opposition leaders. In one of the conversations she even handpicked members of the future Ukrainian government.
2. Please Google for "USSR US grants". You will discover how US government supported USSR opposition friendly to US interests through Scholarships, Fellowships and Grants to Non Government Organizations (NGO).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 14, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
Now JUST a minute! We LOVED Pierre!
WBraun

climber
Jan 14, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Please Google for "Victoria Nuland Ukraine". You will discover how States Department's Victoria Nuland flew to Ukraine to micromanage Ukrainian coup in February 2014.

McCain was in on this too.

He recruited a whole bunch of neo nazis who proceeded to slaughter unarmed Ukraine civilians during that coup.

McCain and Nuland, American aszhole criminals that clueless st00pid Americans are clueless to ......

Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 15, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
Cutting healthcare costs, not just rearranging who pays for the deck chairs, is still the biggest looming national policy issue.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/to-cut-the-debt-the-gop-should-focus-on-health-care-costs/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 15, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
But a lot of the evidence, like Pizza Gate, is laughable and it was laughable when the story broke.

It wasn't laughable when the gunman showed up.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jan 16, 2018 - 01:16pm PT
"Let's take a look at some numbers:
1. Putin spent ~$10,000.00 on Facebook ads.
2. Trump spent ~$200,000,000.00 on campaign ads.
3. Hillary spent ~$1,000,000,000.00 on campaign ads.
4. MSMs published ~$5,000,000,000.00 worth of propaganda materials during last presidential campaign."

Russia also sent propaganda about Dem. party to wikileaks, after attempts to work an angle with trumpeters didn't seem as optimum.
Simultaneously, media became ever more dominated by the continued rise of news sites that either do no fact checking and even publish intentionally false stories and lying twits.
The Facebook ads were not very different than all the breitbart type trolls that took over the minds of many lemmings.

The alt-news was then stoked by massive biased press especially by biased "reporting" by faux news types, biased Congressional hearings, and biased leaks of fakery by James Comey.
And stoked further by free MSM press. Even NPR and PBS gave hourly free press to all this nonsense.

So yes, the MSM repeated all the exaggerated nonsense about Hillary about 5 billion times, some of which came from Russia, while failing to fact check much of the trumptwits, which was enough to sway swing voters in swing states and elect the orange coo-coo.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 16, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
Trump's cognitive ability is normal, says White House doctor

Great! They now won't be able to claim insanity or dementia at his trial.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 16, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
There are posts with images of athletes that are 6'3" and weight 239, and....there is no way on earth that DT weights only 239 if the numbers being posted with those images are accurate.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Jan 16, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
Happi...He might well weigh 239 if you take into consdieration the small hands and the other small member...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 17, 2018 - 07:36am PT
The Wall Street Journal asked 68 business, financial and academic economists who was responsible for the strengthening of the economy, and most “suggested Mr. Trump’s election deserves at least some credit” for the upturn.

A majority said the president had been “somewhat” or “strongly” positive for job creation, gross domestic product growth and the rising stock market.

The pros cite the White House’s push for lighter regulation and the recent tax bill as critical to a pro-growth environment; more than 90 percent of the group thought the tax bill would boost GDP expansion over the next two years.

A year ago in the same survey, economists awarded President Obama mixed grades. Most saw his policies as positive for financial stability, but neutral-to-negative for GDP growth and negative for long-term growth. By contrast, Trump was seen as neutral to positive for long-term gains.

http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/368904-economists-agree-trump-not-obama-gets-credit-for-economy

Whaddaya know.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 17, 2018 - 07:38am PT
The pros cite the White House’s push for lighter regulation and the recent tax bill as critical to a pro-growth environment; more than 90 percent of the group thought the tax bill would boost GDP expansion over the next two years.

Wow! Who would ever have thought that Wall Street would approve of lighter regulation!!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
Aside from issues of Russian interference in social media to manipulate elections... what about basic integrity of vote recording and counting?

The state of security for voting machines is truly appalling:
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/voting-machine-makers-already-worried-190000481.html


This is not hyperbole... the existing machines from many vendors are known to be easily hackable, and existing vendors are actively working against the security industry conferences from repeating public demonstrations of it and bringing more attention to the issue.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 27, 2018 - 10:42am PT
apparently diabetic blackouts are a threat to voting integrity in CO
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 30, 2018 - 03:00pm PT

trump is still president. Big issue.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
Everyone should watch the video Malemute shared. He didn't get into the SuperPAC and media funding transparency aspects of the problem, but brought great clarity to the issue of equal representation, fixing the command & control structure of government responsive to the will of the people, before other policy issues and strategic plans can be effectively implemented.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2018 - 10:16am PT
What’s the matter DMT, southern street cred at risk if you are seen listening to a “known liberal”? If you disagree with what he says, you don’t have to believe it, but you don’t strike me as a person averse to being informed and considering different perspectives. Or is it the idea of jumping on a bandwagon and threatening the rugged individualist identity that is the problem?

I would very much like to hear any objections to the points he makes, to broaden my perspective and help me understand different people. After doing more research on this guy, I have a lot of respect for the real ways he has contributed to our society, starting or fostering institutions that make our world a better place.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
Here is a very short, excellent, insightful article about a little-discussed aspect of the high cost of medicine in the USA:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-germany-vicodin.html

It boils down to our expectations about pain management. It is also interesting to see how our collective expectations of pain management has contributed to the Opioid Epidemic in USA.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
Unfortunately not a surprise, but Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is not doing it's job (headed by a Trump appointee intended to gut the regulatory agency like most other regulatory agencies):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/02/05/democrats-lash-out-at-consumer-watchdog-amid-reports-the-agency-is-dropping-equifax-investigation/


No subpoenas or sworn testimony from anyone at Equifax yet? Probably because it would show how fragile the whole house of cards is.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
Supreme Court refuses to block Pennsylvania ruling invalidating state’s congressional map

The court denied a request from Pennsylvania Republicans to delay redrawing the map, meaning the 2018 elections probably will be held in districts far more favorable to Democrats.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:36pm PT
Dow closes down more than 1,100 points in volatile trading
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
House panel clears release of Democrats’ rebuttal to GOP memo, setting up a showdown with Trump

President Trump has signaled a reluctance to approve the document for public release. Democrats say their 10-page rebuttal offers important context for assertions made by Republicans about the FBI's surveillance of Carter Page, a former Trump campaign aide.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
‘Un-American’ 'Treasonous': Trump attacks Democrats who didn’t applaud his State of the Union lines on minority unemployment

The president went off script during an address in Ohio designed to tout the benefits of the Republican tax package.


So now if you don't APPLAUD the President, you are a traitor?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:43pm PT
A Marine veteran tried to confront a tailgating driver and was shot in the head, officials say

I'm sure the shooter was just exercising his 2nd amendment rights. The preferred GOP way of settling disputes.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
Ethics training reminds White House staff not to use encrypted messages for government business
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
He said he would not be a president who took vacations, and he called Barack Obama “the vacationer-in-Chief.

” You bought it. But since becoming President he has spent nearly 25 percent of his days at one of his golf properties for some portion of the day, according to Golf News Network, at a cost to taxpayers of over $77 million. That’s already more taxpayer money on vacations than Obama cost in the first 3 years of his presidency. Not to mention all the money taxpayers are spending protecting his family, including his two sons who travel all over the world on Trump business.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
*He said he’d release his taxes

. “I’m under a routine audit and it’ll be released, and as soon as the audit is finished it will be released,“ he promised during the campaign. He hasn’t released his taxes.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 5, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
*He promised
that the many women who accused him of sexual misconduct “will be sued after the election is over.” You bought it. He hasn’t sued them, presumably because he doesn’t want the truth to come out.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 5, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
Norton...Do you have to be so negative about President Trump...?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 5, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
Locker...Green Giant...!!
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 5, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
Norton...Do you have to be so negative about President Trump...?

I feel I have been uncharacteristically constrained.....

----

*He promised to revive the struggling coal industry

and “bring back thousands” of lost mining jobs. You bought it. But coal jobs continue to disappear. Since Trump’s victory, at least 6 plants that relied on coal have closed or announced they will close. Another 40 are projected to close during the president’s four-year term. Utilities continue to switch to natural gas instead of coal, and renewable energy is cheaper than ever.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 5, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
*He promised to protect steel workers.

But according to the American Iron and Steel Institute, which tracks shipments, steel imports were 19.4 percent higher in the first 10 months of 2017 than in the same period last year. That import surge has hurt American steel workers, who were already struggling against a glut of cheap Chinese steel. You bought it.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2018 - 11:46am PT
Head of Food and Drug Administration probably chosen because he was an Obamacare opponent, even though he has numerous conflicts of interest, such as his role as a venture capitalist and biotech investor (profiting from the same companies he has a lead regulatory role over):
 Partner at New Enterprise Associates (venture capital investments):
http://www.nea.com/news/press-releases/nea-venture-partner-scott-gottlieb-m.d.-nominated-to-be-fda-commissioner

So it's not very surprising that he would steer the agency to crack down on an unpatentable drug that competes with his investments, even when the justification is pretty shaky:
 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kratom-deaths-fda_us_5a7a3549e4b07af4e81eda8b


How much do you want to bet he is invested in for-profit companies that make drugs for pain, depression, and anxiety, and drugs to help people step down from opioid addictions? Cheap Kratom that appears to have a strong base of support among American consumers is a threat to the profitability to some businesses.

More info on Kratom:
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20160919/what-is-kratom-dea-ban#1

Full disclosure: I know nothing about the drug/herb/supplement/what-have-you. Just connecting some dots that look like they need connecting. Instead of supporting safety testing for consumers, FDA is trying to shift the market to force consumers to more expensive alternatives that transfer more wealth from poor to rich.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 7, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
its seems what unifies conservatives is a need to hurt others coupled with the dishonesty it takes to not admit it and thus seek some way of looking at the rest where the harm they cause others is seen to actually be good for and in the best interest of the victims

It's an old technique, which the rightwing has perfected.
To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 8, 2018 - 10:34am PT
The ‘family values’ crowd is mute on Rob Porter
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 8, 2018 - 10:35am PT
‘Pretty clear evidence’ that Russia meddled in U.S. election, George W. Bush says

The 43rd president has been critical of Russia, slamming it for working to "exploit our country's divisions." President Trump has dismissed the conclusions of U. S. intelligence officials that the Kremlin interfered in the 2016 presidential election.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 8, 2018 - 10:36am PT
Judge suggests drug-addicted woman get sterilized before sentencing, and she does

An Oklahoma woman faces jail time for passing counterfeit checks. The judge suggested that his sentence might be different if she presents proof that "she has been rendered incapable of procreation."
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 8, 2018 - 10:39am PT
A Holocaust denier is the presumptive Republican nominee for a congressional seat. The GOP faults the media for covering him.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
Dozens at White House — including Trump adviser Jared Kushner — lack permanent security clearances
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 16, 2018 - 08:50am PT
^^^^^

sad, believe me
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 16, 2018 - 09:10am PT
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=14032&msg=14214#msg14214
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 16, 2018 - 09:10am PT
I like that graphic.... about sums it up.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 16, 2018 - 10:49am PT
Thirteen Russian nationals and three Russian entities were indicted on Friday, “accused of violating U.S. criminal laws in order to interfere with U.S. elections and political processes,” according to the special counsel’s office.

According to ABC, President Donald Trump was briefed about the indictments by FBI Director Christopher Wray and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/russian-indicted-us-election_us_5a871b70e4b05c2bcaca8989
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 16, 2018 - 10:58am PT
its seems what unifieds conservatives is a need to hurt others coupled with the dishonesty it takes to not admit it

I think you give them too much credit for being hypocritical.

I think the hardcore Trump supporters have fully embraced the politics of resentment and spite.

There is a football bulletin board that I follow that tends as right-wing as this one tends left. They openly gloat about any policy that makes libtards cry and that hurts democratic supporters. Doesn't make any difference whether it hurts the country or not. In fact, it doesn't seem to make any difference whether they themselves get hurt. I will gladly see my future pension and/or health care get slashed, so that billionaires can have a massive tax cut, as long as libtards are upset about it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 16, 2018 - 11:46am PT
Brown Shirts with Red Caps
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 16, 2018 - 11:48am PT
Admins nuked the two other political threads so this is the last and only one left.

Perhaps a message is being sent.....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
I would be totally up for a mandatory conscription for 2 years of all men and women in this country,
if enrollees had a choice of what type of service to perform, with ability to opt out of violence.

China may have a variety of rough edges, and what they are doing here does not equate with my pipe dream above, but they sure do get some things right:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-tree-plant-soldiers-reassign-climate-change-global-warming-deforestation-a8208836.html

Imagine if we collectively valued leaders who offer solutions to problems instead of offering insults to their opponents?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 17, 2018 - 07:28am PT
This is a must read...

Why a Government Run by Oligarchs Is Very Deadly

By Chris Hedges / Truthdig

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/donald-trump-tyranny

Oligarchic rule, as Aristotle pointed out, is a deviant form of government. Oligarchs care nothing for competency, intelligence, honesty, rationality, self-sacrifice or the common good. They pervert, deform and dismantle systems of power to serve their immediate interests, squandering the future for short-term personal gain. “The true forms of government, therefore, are those in which the one, or the few, or the many, govern with a view to the common interest; but governments that rule with a view to the private interest, whether of the one, of the few or of the many, are perversions,” Aristotle wrote. The classicist Peter L.P. Simpson calls these perversions the “sophistry of oligarchs,” meaning that once oligarchs take power, rational, prudent and thoughtful responses to social, economic and political problems are ignored to feed insatiable greed. The late stage of every civilization is characterized by the sophistry of oligarchs, who ravage the decaying carcass of the state.

These deviant forms of government are defined by common characteristics, most of which Aristotle understood. Oligarchs use power and ruling structures solely for personal advancement.

Oligarchs, though they speak of deconstructing the administrative state, actually increase deficits and the size and power of law enforcement and the military to protect their global business interests and ensure domestic social control. The parts of the state that serve the common good wither in the name of deregulation and austerity. The parts that promote the oligarchs’ power expand in the name of national security, economic growth and law and order.

read more
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Mighty Hiker, I had a similar thought after the last shooting. If our children are not safe in their schools from others allegedly exercising a constitutional right, it seems like they are being denied equal protection under the laws, which is another right under the constitution.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 08:06am PT
Repeal the second amendment (written by a conservative):


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/opinion/repeat-repeal-second-amendment.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion-columnists&action=click&contentCollection=columnists®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront&referer=https://www.nytimes.com/section/opinion/columnists
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 17, 2018 - 09:10am PT
It's difficult to determine accurate numbers for NRA political support.

Here are two links from the same sight.

https://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/detail.php?cmte=National+Rifle+Assn&cycle=2016

One asserts the NRA contributed $1,085,150 in the 2016 election cycle, with 99% going to Rebublicans.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=d000000082&cycle=2014

The other claims:
Total Independent Expenditures: $52,582,309
For Democrats: $265
Against Democrats: $37,010,516
For Republicans: $17,385,437
Against Republicans: $2,281

I assume the later includes all PAC contributions.

Thank you Citizens United.<sarcasm>

Regardless of the amount, it's clear the organization is pro-Republican and anti-Democrat.

Looking at big tobacco, they had billions to thwart regulations/restrictions. Yet, they've lost ground, repeatedly. So, why can't we do something about gun regulation?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 17, 2018 - 12:43pm PT
NRA donated 30 million to the trump campaign...You think Trump will support any effort to legislate gun control...? Bought and sold...The 13 indictments disprove the Sleazeball's claim of russian interference being a hoax...What a suprise...Ever notice how whatever sleazeball says turns out to be a lie.. Times running out for sleazeball ..Time to fire Rosenstein and Mueller..
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 17, 2018 - 01:16pm PT
I've long believed the constitutional path is the only way to truly and significantly regulate firearms

Getting a controversial amendment through is extremely difficult. Especially in the case of something like guns where low population states are much more pro-gun but their vote for or against the amendment counts the same as states like CA.

I would say it is far more likely that you could, at some point, have 5 Supreme Court members who rule that the 2 amendment protects "well regulated militias" like state national guards, but that it does not give an individual right to gun ownership.

This would have been far easier prior to the Heller decision in 2008 that ruled 5-4 in favor of an individual right. Since you would now need a court to explicitly overturn that decision. But I still think this is far more likely than an amendment...
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
The Court has clearly established the "free speech" can be regulated, so why the notion that the gun ownership cannot? The only place in the Bill of Rights where the word "regulated" is found is in the Second Amendment.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Feb 17, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
^^^^^ FAIL

We defend America with INTEGRITY which is why things are going the way they are now. You don't have the capability to connect those dots Jody. Keep on posting if it makes you feel good though.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 17, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
Arm the students...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 17, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
RJ! Re your remark:

Arm the students...

We need to arm the students who are born & raised to threaten others. Arm the sons of cops & military. Arm the football team. And arm the Young Republicans.

Give them brown shirts, arm-bands, batons, & automatic pistols.

What could go Rong?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 17, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Arm school personnel...is that so hard to figure out?

Not if you believe in the moronic proposition that more guns are the answer.
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
The way to do it, is kill all the st00pid criminals like Rodrigo Duterte does .... :-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:29pm PT
The way to do it, is kill all the st00pid criminals like Rodrigo Duterte does .... :-)


Jody

climber
Occupied Territory

Feb 17, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
Finally! A suggestion that makes sense and isn't some stoopid anti-gun talking point.

Here you have it-----and why you need to be afraid. Two law enforcement types advocating that the gov't ignore the Constitution, and institute summary execution of anyone suspected of a crime... or even anyone they don't like, or their friend doesn't like, or who owns something that they want.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
Jody-
in the hands of the GOOD guys.
The GOOD guy is one lost job, one divorce filing, one foreclosure, one staw on the camel's back away from blowing a gasket and reaching for their gun. Statistics prove this.

Unless you live in Compton or Montana, Idiots that pack in urban environments often daydream about pulling a Lone Ranger, hero escapade. They are more likely to get cut-off by someone their way to Pro Bass Shops and in a fit of rage, start spraying bullets.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
The way to do it, is kill all the st00pid criminals like Rodrigo Duterte does .... :-)
Any spiritual statements by a person that would say this, even in Gest, automatically gets Elmer Gantry status...WTF!
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
St00pid fools here can't see a joke

No wonder these fools here are so brainwashed and insane .....
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
Oh good! I was starting to think that over 33,000 deaths annually from gun violence was carnage. Glad to find out otherwise...
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:47pm PT
These guys are st00pid clowns

The fool Ken M thinks I'm LEO lol

What a nutcase .....
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
10 round magazines- max, no exceptions

Extensive background checks using a National database that is linked to a mental health database. Sorry for the infringement on privacy, but too fuking bad.

Close the gun show loophole.

That's it, nothing else.

They don't even have the courage to do this- pathetic!
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
You shouldn't with these wackjobs here.

They are soo brainwashed and internet losers.

They are idiots .....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
I always hear about "reasonable gun laws" but nobody ever has reasonable suggestions that would actually guarantee that these shootings would not take place.

Nobody is asking for a "guarantee....not take place." This insistence any regulation guarantees is strawman. The most we can hope for is a reduction, and THAT is an almost CERTAIN outcome with those "reasonable gun laws." F*#ked up men gonna kill; it's kinda like that, if you haven't noticed yet. They kill their wives and girlfriends, and their babies. Strangers who somehow pissed them off when they crossed their path at the wrong place at the wrong time, themselves, when they can't sit within their own skin....

Men have ALWAYS killed. It's just now, there seems to be a trend that seems to include the "glory" that comes with mass killings.

F*#ked.Up. Men.

I would say "f*#ked up people," but there hasn't been any uptick in females doing this sort of thing.



More baseless and unsubstantiated paranoia.

So, doesn't "paranoia" mean worry about something nonexistent? These deaths are not imagined; they are real. How many people - children - must be mowed down before it's not "paranoia?"

The kids are going to boycott school, until the gun laws change. The media is saying they intend to start this on 4/20 - ha! Gonna be hard for ANY politician to look a kid in the face and say "Get back in school, you pussy. What are you afraid of?" when the fear is real, and valid.

It makes me SICK that people aren't WILLING to sacrifice that range of weaponry. Not for a single child, not for a hundred, not for a thousand. How many children is your gun worth to you?


My gd, Jody - you have a girl in school. How can you think she is immune to such a horrible fate?


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 17, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 17, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
Whenever it's "for the children", it's a lie. Pretty much every time too.

You have in this Florida case a total failure of multiple gov't agencies to have stopped these murders. We have a disturbed man openly telling us (using his real name) what he was going to do ahead of time, with pictures.

And yet moar laws? Don't be stupid. It burns....
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 17, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
It’s about the guns dumbass.



For mass murders, suicides, general gun violence

More guns = more gun deaths

Less restrictive gun laws = more gun deaths

Fewer guns = fewer gun deaths

More restrictive gun laws = fewer gun deaths

This is true when you compare different U. S. states and when you compare other countries to the U.S.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 17, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
Don't f*#king call me stupid, fear.

This isn't about this single f*#ked.up.male. It is about what is going on with all these f*#ked.up.males over the last few years who have somehow received a message that this is the way to go.

2nd ammendment rights.... Anyone who thinks that their having access to an unlimited number of semiautomatic weapons, with an unlimited amount of ammunition, and an ability to run large numbers of bullets quickly, needs them because "the government" is TOO MUCH A SIMPLETON to have even one gun. I am sorry, but it's just that simple.

If the government is gunning for you, you're going to be gunned down. Peroid. You know that "Fight fire with fire" old saying? Well, a railcar filled with semiautomatic weapons with large bullet capacity is like a sparkler against what the government could unleash on any "well regulated militia."

So....anyone who is going to use that rational, I could repeat your words ver batim "Don't be stupid. It burns."





Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 17, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
The children seem to be pretty angry about the gun stuff, and have been demanding that the president and congress take action.

Wrong approach, knuckleheads. You're not registered to vote.

I say we drum this message into the kids heads:

IT'S YOUR PARENTS - YOUR STUPID PARENTS - WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTING THESE IDIOTS TO CONGRESS WHO SUPPORT GUN OWNERSHIP.

KIDS, IT'S TIME THAT YOU GOT ANGRY WITH YOUR STUPID PARENTS.

PUT THE PRESSURE ON YOUR STUPID PARENTS, AND DON'T LET UP. EVER.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 10:18pm PT
McDonalds, Burger King, and Phillip Morris kill 20 times more than all the guns and knives.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 17, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
Don’t worry, I don’t intend to patronize any of those murderers.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2018 - 07:34am PT
If we are to ever have an honest discussion of Gun Control, we had better get past the hyperbole

Unfortunately, hyperbole is the norm in American culture... especially with national issues. We've become a nation of mouthy seventh graders.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Feb 18, 2018 - 08:07am PT
Jody,

arming teachers, where does it stop? You are just escalating a philosophy that has a bloody ending. We need to address the root causes. I know you can't understand that....... but might as well keep trying.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 18, 2018 - 08:35am PT
Armed guards is a bit much but if schools start using them they should be paid well and their salaries should come out of the NRA budget...Just a start...I'll go climbing with you Locker when my neck injury heals...Having trouble keeping my head from falling sideways...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Feb 18, 2018 - 08:47am PT
QITNL:
This forum is an early warning test of the death throes of a demographic. Many of you are angry with your growing obsolescence. I understand, and I'm sorry you will become extinct.
I understand that most likely in 15 to 25 years I will become extinct.
This is a law of nature.
I am not angry about it.
I accept it.

QITNL, it seems to me that you are angry about it.
Don't be.
There is no need for you to feel sorry as well.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 09:45am PT
GLillegard,

there is a difference between discussing how to stop "mass" shootings, and how to reduce deaths by guns.

People are less afraid of individual shootings, because we have some level of control over who we hang out with. This is why mass shootings create more fear. We can't control the large groups of people we hang out with, such as when we send our children to school. This is why there is a difference between single killings, which have many more deaths, and mass shootings.

Perhaps if we could get gun owners to understand this, then that might reduce their fear that "all liberals" want to take away all guns. this simply isn't true. Some certainly do, but the vast majority don't.

If we could get to that point, then perhaps we could discuss making it more difficult for people to own semi auto rifles and handguns. Making those more difficult for the average person to get would reduce the number of deaths caused by those intent on mass shootings. Of course it would not stop overall shootings, and it likely wouldn't do much to stop the number of mass shootings, but it would help reduce the number of people killed during these shootings.

The next thing to understand is that this problem has deep roots. It will not be fully stopped until every root is dug out. That would be impossible in humans current state of consciousness. So baby steps need to be discovered.

I have less problem with Jody's plan to arm some school staff then I used to. It is likely something we are going to have to do until we find other ways to wake people up to the roots of violence and people find the will to make the changes that are necessary. Some people certainly have done the inner work, they don't carry guns. They depend on their own good karma and to some extent those who are paid by our society to carry guns. Everyone has different levels of what they depend on. The key is finding ways to balance all of those needs.

Contrary to what some say, I have no desire to take away all guns.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 09:55am PT
Actually it is a boy and I know he is not immune. But if there were armed adults at that school to protect him I would feel much better about things.

Happie, what is your suggestion to get rid of ALL these "horrible weapons"?

All 300+ million of them.

I mixed up you and fattrad when I was thinking of your child, and didn't realize until after I went offline.

I don't suggest we DO get rid of "All." I never HAVE given any indication I thought that way. Nor have the VAST majority of people who are begging for regulation.

I also don't think there IS a "push a button/make a law quick fix." And I also don't have the audacity to think I have the resources/knowledge/education/experience to suggest "here's the solution." That people use that excuse "What's YOUR suggestion to fix" as a way to support maintaining the status quo, disgusts me. It is such a low level debate tactic, it just tells me I am not dealing with a high level thinker. Unfortunately, that level of debate is a popular strategy among internet forums.

If I had my guesses as to what's going on with this increase, I would say it is a combination of things, not necessarily in the order I write:
 polarization within politics and the intentional feeding of propaganda intended to reinforce our "differences"
 desensitization of death, with the video games that focus on decimating a target that is a sentient being. Now, there has always been Cowboys/Indians and Cops/Robbers. I believe it may be the quick action inherent with the video screen that might be altering our ability to have patience. Also, I notice that the "killers" in these video games are often designed as rogue bad-guy/gal types. A generation ago, we may have thought the "bad guy" had some level of debonair and daring, but we knew he wasn't gong to prevail in the end.
 The reflexing prescribing of drugs to manage behavior conditions. We now KNOW, beyond a doubt, that docs prescribing narcotics for pain led to the opioid epidemic. It seems to me we ought to be more carefully researching and monitoring the longer term effects on all the ADD/ADHD/Social Anxiety etc drugs. YES, they can benefit people. But they can also be extremely dangerous. And, without monitoring, a person on them is unable to recognize issues that may be arriving. We're always the last to know, when it comes to something going off within our selves.
 Chemical Pesticide exposures for the last several decades. Some of these chemicals are used to fry the nervous systems of insects, and decimate the life force within non-sentient beings(weeds). I think it would be ludicrous to not expect we are being negatively affected by the long term exposures to these elements. We KNOW how bad Asbestos was for people....why would we think for a minute that our corporatists have learned any sort of lesson about caution when it comes to exposing populations? Their solution? Call it a "frivolous lawsuit" when someone claims illness due to exposure, and lobby against the class action suits that make the lawyers rich. Instead - why not lobby to cap the percentage the attorneys GET, IF the "lawyers benefitting" is the reason they don't think these suits are fair....?
 Gun Porn, with the NRA and the gun markets pimping - Like cigs were targeted to "be cool," the gun ads and videos do the same. Maybe.....maybe gun ads should have some regulation as to what out to be avoided.
 Arms Manufacturing as as Economic Stimulus - almost certainly, at the end of the day, the underlying pin to this grenade


John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 10:16am PT
LOCK THE DOORS TO THE SCHOOL ONCE STUDENTS ARRIVE???...


most schools aren't completely fenced, meaning most anyone can sneak on campus. In the florida shooting the guy pulled the fire alarm to get kids out of their classrooms.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 18, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Sandy Hook school was locked.

Yer gonna have to bullet proof every exterior window.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 18, 2018 - 10:44am PT
Shot thru a window, either on the door or nearby.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 11:08am PT
With some 350 million people and 300 million guns in the US shouldn't there be multiple mass shootings every day?

Looks like we are just ramping up, what will it be like in 10 yrs?

"That is the price we pay for living in a free society" - code for just deal with it personally

"criminals don't bother to read or follow laws", so don't bother passing any new laws

"enforce the laws already on the books" - been trying that, does not seem to work, at all

"how about a Federal law stopping the sale of all military grade assault weapons?"

oh come on, more big government intruding into the lives of American citizens, no way

so back to, "our thoughts and prayers go out", rinse and repeat
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 18, 2018 - 11:14am PT
Locker, don’t you need to go climbing today?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 18, 2018 - 11:42am PT
Right you are. A pity that the operation I had three months ago so I could get out more was all phukked up, but thanks for asking.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 11:48am PT

Can we talk?

Seriously?

There IS a definitive solution to military grade assault weapons used to slaughter.

A Federal law banning the immediate sale, turning in and destruction of them.

HA HA

Will that work? Of course it will and we all know it, can't get your hands on one can't use it.

Norway did it, Australia did it, Canada and England, can't buy em, can't own em.

Here comes the outcry, well too bad honey boo boo, at some point the US will, maybe in 20,50,100 years, and that will be the end of 8 yr olds screaming and dying at Sandy Hook.

Don't even try to counter with well then we ought to ban knives and bats, sorry too weak

drastic times call for drastic measures throughout human history

many more years of thoughts and prayers going out first, then and only then when the American people get so damn mad they make sure to elect politicians who will pass those laws
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 18, 2018 - 11:59am PT

The Blackwater gospel - a part of the American system. What we can't see in this film is that some more or less hidden few Americans are thriving on the individualized fear (politicians, religious leaders, the NRA, weapon sellers, lawyers and so on) ...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Neither can we see the media. The media, free speech and some American institutions can still save America, but are under attack from the current POTUS (who shares much with the priest in this gospel - bad Maxicans, sh#t countries and so on) and his followers.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:03pm PT

I'm not surprised...

"It ain't gonna me..." aka "Buy more weapons..."


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
Paul Ryan is a coward and designated fluffer to the NRA. Nothing going to happen.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
Are you guaranteeing that ALL will be turned in and that bad guys will turn theirs in also?

Don't need to guarantee ALL.. just need to get most off the streets, thus making them harder to get. We are talking about "reducing".. not necessarily completely eliminating. That would probably be an impossible goal.

A country that believed in getting them off the street would get them off the street. The problem is that people like you don't want them off the street. Until the vast majority of Americans want them off the street, then they will continue to be a problem. Semi auto rifles with the ability to have high capacity magazines are what I am talking about.

Well regulated..
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
Jody wondered

Two questions:

What is a military grade assault weapon?

Are you guaranteeing that ALL will be turned in and that bad guys will turn theirs in also?

Jody, you seriously do not know the definition of a military grade assault weapon, really?

hint, there is such thing as an internet search, try it, I am not going to educate you

secondly, did I say that I personally would "guarantee" that bad guys would turn them in?

Grow up Jody, you have offered nothing as a solution, I have offered the ultimate solution

the only final solution, again, is to destroy every AR15 type in the US except for law enforcement

does not matter how long it takes, 100 years, and yes root em out by force if necessary

only then will the USA join other nations in greatly mitigating , not "end", civilian slaughter
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Metal rusts. People grow old. Attitudes change. I own guns, love shooting them. Ban sales of new firearms to anyone military or public safety. Eventually, all those old guns will be revered in their rarity. They will be usable, and expensive. With 300m firearms here in the US, that’s almost enough for everyone to own one. The shitty kids in class ruined it for everyone, and now guns need to be treated legally in a different manner. Time passes, and some sort of change needs to happen. Ban them, and give exceptions, all monitored and regulated. People will die of old age, and the fascination with guns in out great nation will calm down. If we don’t begin to enact a slow change now, then when will we?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:29pm PT

You're already doing your best, Jody, supporting that kind of government...

What's happening with the American drugs... The worst drug dealers in present America is not out on the street. It's family physicians and parents...

Who's getting rich because of all these drug deaths?
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
yep Malmute. its gonna be a long haul.

Jody.. you pretty much describe the military. I don't need you or others to have a gun to keep me safe from the government. I do need you to pay attention, to care about someone other they yourself, and try to be informed.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
you know that he means semi auto rifles that have the capacity to be fitted with high capacity magazines. So you are just being argumentative.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:42pm PT
Jody, what’s a standard magazine size for an AR style rifle? In my opinion, any magazine over 15 rounds should be illegal. If you’re hunting and you take more than three shots, you suck at hunting. If you’re at the range, reloading shouldn’t be an issue, as you’re presumably hanging with your friends.

I say keep it at some standard, 9-12 feels right, and ban the rest. Black market, yeah yeah, dumb argument that holds no water.

Begin the process now for our grandkids sakes.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
( Edit: Jody )


If you genuinely believed that he was strictly talking about military grade weapons, and you knew that few civilians owned them. Then why would you argue with him about banning civilians from owning them since few if any owned them, unless of course you wanted to be argumentative.

the truth is that you know he is talking about semi auto rifles that have the capacity to have high capacity magazines, and you don't want those banned to civilians.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
Was that post directed at me, John? If so, you’re way off the mark. Keep thinking really hard about stuff, though
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
No Brandon.. I was talking to Jody..
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
oh stop it

the Second amendment was written in a time of single shot black powder

the well regulated militia was added in to insure that citizens in each state would be trained and available, think today's National Guard, to band together with black power rifles in order to, again, defeat ENGLAND, if that need ever came up again
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2018 - 01:58pm PT
Ban the production and sale of .223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2018 - 02:04pm PT
Norway did it, Australia did it, Canada and England

So did Russia, Germany, China and Cambodia.

How'd that work out?




Also, let's look at the effectiveness of our war on drugs. Who's to say a war on guns will be more successful.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
I'm sure almost everybody here has read this, but just in case a couple might have missed it.

(Slip Opinion) OCTOBER TERM, 2007 1
Syllabus
NOTE: Where it is feasible, a syllabus (headnote) will be released, as is
being done in connection with this case, at the time the opinion is issued.
The syllabus constitutes no part of the opinion of the Court but has been
prepared by the Reporter of Decisions for the convenience of the reader.
See United States v. Detroit Timber & Lumber Co., 200 U. S. 321, 337.
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
Syllabus
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008
District of Columbia law bans handgun possession by making it a crime
to carry an unregistered firearm and prohibiting the registration of
handguns; provides separately that no person may carry an unlicensed
handgun, but authorizes the police chief to issue 1-year licenses;
and requires residents to keep lawfully owned firearms
unloaded and dissembled or bound by a trigger lock or similar device.
Respondent Heller, a D. C. special policeman, applied to register a
handgun he wished to keep at home, but the District refused. He
filed this suit seeking, on Second Amendment grounds, to enjoin the
city from enforcing the bar on handgun registration, the licensing requirement
insofar as it prohibits carrying an unlicensed firearm in
the home, and the trigger-lock requirement insofar as it prohibits the
use of functional firearms in the home. The District Court dismissed
the suit, but the D. C. Circuit reversed, holding that the Second
Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess firearms and
that the city’s total ban on handguns, as well as its requirement that
firearms in the home be kept nonfunctional even when necessary for
self-defense, violated that right.
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but
does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative
clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it
connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation
2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Syllabus
of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically
capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists
feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in
order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing
army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress
power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear
arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.
Pp. 22–28.
(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous armsbearing
rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately
followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.
(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious
interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals
that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms.
Pp. 30–32.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts
and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the
late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation.
Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553, nor
Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 264–265, refutes the individualrights
interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not
limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather
limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by
the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.
2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any
manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed
weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment
or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast
doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by
felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms
in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those
“in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition
of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
Pp. 54–56.
3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to
self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban
on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an
entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the
lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny
the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 3
Syllabus
prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense
of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional
muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the
home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible
for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and
is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument
that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily
and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy
his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement.
Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment
rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and
must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.
478 F. 3d 370, affirmed.
SCALIA, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which ROBERTS,
C. J., and KENNEDY, THOMAS, and ALITO, JJ., joined. STEVENS, J., filed a
dissenting opinion, in which SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ.,
joined. BREYER, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which STEVENS,
SOUTER, and GINSBURG, JJ., joined.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 1
Opinion of the Court
NOTICE: This opinion is subject to formal revision before publication in the
preliminary print of the United States Reports. Readers are requested to
notify the Reporter of Decisions, Supreme Court of the United States, Washington,
D. C. 20543, of any typographical or other formal errors, in order
that corrections may be made before the preliminary print goes to press.
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
_
No. 07–290
_
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ET AL., PETITIONERS v.
DICK ANTHONY HELLER
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF
APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
[June 26, 2008]
JUSTICE SCALIA delivered the opinion of the Court.
We consider whether a District of Columbia prohibition
on the possession of usable handguns in the home violates
the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
I
The District of Columbia generally prohibits the possession
of handguns. It is a crime to carry an unregistered
firearm, and the registration of handguns is prohibited.
See D. C. Code §§7–2501.01(12), 7–2502.01(a), 7–
2502.02(a)(4) (2001). Wholly apart from that prohibition,
no person may carry a handgun without a license, but the
chief of police may issue licenses for 1-year periods. See
§§22–4504(a), 22–4506. District of Columbia law also
requires residents to keep their lawfully owned firearms,
such as registered long guns, “unloaded and dissembled or
bound by a trigger lock or similar device” unless they are
located in a place of business or are being used for lawful
recreational activities. See §7–2507.02.1
——————
1 There are minor exceptions to all of these prohibitions, none of
which is relevant here.
2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
Respondent Dick Heller is a D. C. special police officer
authorized to carry a handgun while on duty at the Federal
Judicial Center. He applied for a registration certificate
for a handgun that he wished to keep at home, but
the District refused. He thereafter filed a lawsuit in the
Federal District Court for the District of Columbia seeking,
on Second Amendment grounds, to enjoin the city
from enforcing the bar on the registration of handguns,
the licensing requirement insofar as it prohibits the carrying
of a firearm in the home without a license, and the
trigger-lock requirement insofar as it prohibits the use of
“functional firearms within the home.” App. 59a. The
District Court dismissed respondent’s complaint, see
Parker v. District of Columbia, 311 F. Supp. 2d 103, 109
(2004). The Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
Circuit, construing his complaint as seeking the right to
render a firearm operable and carry it about his home in
that condition only when necessary for self-defense,2 reversed,
see Parker v. District of Columbia, 478 F. 3d 370,
401 (2007). It held that the Second Amendment protects
an individual right to possess firearms and that the city’s
total ban on handguns, as well as its requirement that
firearms in the home be kept nonfunctional even when
necessary for self-defense, violated that right. See id., at
395, 399–401. The Court of Appeals directed the District
Court to enter summary judgment for respondent.
We granted certiorari. 552 U. S. ___ (2007).
II
We turn first to the meaning of the Second Amendment.
A
The Second Amendment provides: “A well regulated
Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
——————
2 That construction has not been challenged here.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 3
Opinion of the Court
infringed.” In interpreting this text, we are guided by the
principle that “[t]he Constitution was written to be understood
by the voters; its words and phrases were used in
their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical
meaning.” United States v. Sprague, 282 U. S. 716, 731
(1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824).
Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic
meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that
would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the
founding generation.
The two sides in this case have set out very different
interpretations of the Amendment. Petitioners and today’s
dissenting Justices believe that it protects only the
right to possess and carry a firearm in connection with
militia service. See Brief for Petitioners 11–12; post, at 1
(STEVENS, J., dissenting). Respondent argues that it
protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected
with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within
the home. See Brief for Respondent 2–4.
The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two
parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The
former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather
announces a purpose. The Amendment could be rephrased,
“Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to
the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep
and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” See J. Tiffany, A
Treatise on Government and Constitutional Law §585,
p. 394 (1867); Brief for Professors of Linguistics and English
as Amici Curiae 3 (hereinafter Linguists’ Brief).
Although this structure of the Second Amendment is
unique in our Constitution, other legal documents of the
founding era, particularly individual-rights provisions of
state constitutions, commonly included a prefatory statement
of purpose. See generally Volokh, The Commonplace
Second Amendment, 73 N. Y. U. L. Rev. 793, 814–821
4 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
(1998).
Logic demands that there be a link between the stated
purpose and the command. The Second Amendment
would be nonsensical if it read, “A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of
the people to petition for redress of grievances shall not be
infringed.” That requirement of logical connection may
cause a prefatory clause to resolve an ambiguity in the
operative clause (“The separation of church and state
being an important objective, the teachings of canons shall
have no place in our jurisprudence.” The preface makes
clear that the operative clause refers not to canons of
interpretation but to clergymen.) But apart from that
clarifying function, a prefatory clause does not limit or
expand the scope of the operative clause. See F. Dwarris,
A General Treatise on Statutes 268–269 (P. Potter ed.
1871) (hereinafter Dwarris); T. Sedgwick, The Interpretation
and Construction of Statutory and Constitutional Law
42–45 (2d ed. 1874).3 “ ‘It is nothing unusual in acts . . . for
the enacting part to go beyond the preamble; the remedy
often extends beyond the particular act or mischief which
first suggested the necessity of the law.’ ” J. Bishop,
——————
3 As Sutherland explains, the key 18th-century English case on the
effect of preambles, Copeman v. Gallant, 1 P. Wms. 314, 24 Eng. Rep.
404 (1716), stated that “the preamble could not be used to restrict the
effect of the words of the purview.” J. Sutherland, Statutes and Statutory
Construction, 47.04 (N. Singer ed. 5th ed. 1992). This rule was
modified in England in an 1826 case to give more importance to the
preamble, but in America “the settled principle of law is that the
preamble cannot control the enacting part of the statute in cases where
the enacting part is expressed in clear, unambiguous terms.” Ibid.
JUSTICE STEVENS says that we violate the general rule that every
clause in a statute must have effect. Post, at 8. But where the text of a
clause itself indicates that it does not have operative effect, such as
“whereas” clauses in federal legislation or the Constitution’s preamble,
a court has no license to make it do what it was not designed to do. Or
to put the point differently, operative provisions should be given effect
as operative provisions, and prologues as prologues.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 5
Opinion of the Court
Commentaries on Written Laws and Their Interpretation
§51, p. 49 (1882) (quoting Rex v. Marks, 3 East, 157, 165
(K. B. 1802)). Therefore, while we will begin our textual
analysis with the operative clause, we will return to the
prefatory clause to ensure that our reading of the operative
clause is consistent with the announced purpose.4
1. Operative Clause.
a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of
the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.”
The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights
use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the
First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in
the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The
Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by
the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously
refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights
that may be exercised only through participation in some
corporate body.5
——————
4 JUSTICE STEVENS criticizes us for discussing the prologue last. Post,
at 8. But if a prologue can be used only to clarify an ambiguous operative
provision, surely the first step must be to determine whether the
operative provision is ambiguous. It might be argued, we suppose, that
the prologue itself should be one of the factors that go into the determination
of whether the operative provision is ambiguous—but that
would cause the prologue to be used to produce ambiguity rather than
just to resolve it. In any event, even if we considered the prologue
along with the operative provision we would reach the same result we
do today, since (as we explain) our interpretation of “the right of the
people to keep and bear arms” furthers the purpose of an effective
militia no less than (indeed, more than) the dissent’s interpretation.
See infra, at 26–27.
5 JUSTICE STEVENS is of course correct, post, at 10, that the right to
assemble cannot be exercised alone, but it is still an individual right,
and not one conditioned upon membership in some defined “assembly,”
as he contends the right to bear arms is conditioned upon membership
6 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people”
in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble
(“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people”
will choose members of the House), and the Tenth
Amendment (providing that those powers not given the
Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the
people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people”
acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or
reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the
Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer
to anything other than an individual right.6
What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution
that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously
refers to all members of the political community, not an
unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-
Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):
“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art employed
in select parts of the Constitution. . . . [Its
uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the
——————
in a defined militia. And JUSTICE STEVENS is dead wrong to think that
the right to petition is “primarily collective in nature.” Ibid. See
McDonald v. Smith, 472 U. S. 479, 482–484 (1985) (describing historical
origins of right to petition).
6 If we look to other founding-era documents, we find that some state
constitutions used the term “the people” to refer to the people collectively,
in contrast to “citizen,” which was used to invoke individual
rights. See Heyman, Natural Rights and the Second Amendment, in
The Second Amendment in Law and History 179, 193–195 (C. Bogus
ed. 2000) (hereinafter Bogus). But that usage was not remotely uniform.
See, e.g., N. C. Declaration of Rights §XIV (1776), in 5 The
Federal and State Constitutions, Colonial Charters, and Other Organic
Laws 2787, 2788 (F. Thorpe ed. 1909) (hereinafter Thorpe) (jury trial);
Md. Declaration of Rights §XVIII (1776), in 3 id., at 1686, 1688 (vicinage
requirement); Vt. Declaration of Rights ch. 1, §XI (1777), in 6 id.,
at 3737, 3741 (searches and seizures); Pa. Declaration of Rights §XII
(1776), in 5 id., at 3081, 3083 (free speech). And, most importantly, it
was clearly not the terminology used in the Federal Constitution, given
the First, Fourth, and Ninth Amendments.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 7
Opinion of the Court
Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second
Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved
in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to
a class of persons who are part of a national community
or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection
with this country to be considered part of that
community.”
This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in
the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia”
in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”—
those who were male, able bodied, and within a
certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as
protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an
organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative
clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the
people.”
We start therefore with a strong presumption that the
Second Amendment right is exercised individually and
belongs to all Americans.
b. “Keep and bear Arms.” We move now from the
holder of the right—“the people”—to the substance of the
right: “to keep and bear Arms.”
Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret
their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no
different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of
Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons
of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the
English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson).
Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary
defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his
defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast
at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary
(1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary
of the English Language (1828) (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter
Webster) (similar).
8 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that
were not specifically designed for military use and were
not employed in a military capacity. For instance, Cunningham’s
legal dictionary gave as an example of usage:
“Servants and labourers shall use bows and arrows on
Sundays, &c. and not bear other arms.” See also, e.g., An
Act for the trial of Negroes, 1797 Del. Laws ch. XLIII, §6,
p. 104, in 1 First Laws of the State of Delaware 102, 104
(J. Cushing ed. 1981 (pt. 1)); see generally State v. Duke,
42 Tex. 455, 458 (1874) (citing decisions of state courts
construing “arms”). Although one founding-era thesaurus
limited “arms” (as opposed to “weapons”) to “instruments
of offence generally made use of in war,” even that source
stated that all firearms constituted “arms.” 1 J. Trusler,
The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in
the English Language 37 (1794) (emphasis added).
Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous,
that only those arms in existence in the 18th century
are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret
constitutional rights that way. Just as the First
Amendment protects modern forms of communications,
e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844,
849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern
forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27,
35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima
facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms,
even those that were not in existence at the time of the
founding.
We turn to the phrases “keep arms” and “bear arms.”
Johnson defined “keep” as, most relevantly, “[t]o retain;
not to lose,” and “[t]o have in custody.” Johnson 1095.
Webster defined it as “[t]o hold; to retain in one’s power or
possession.” No party has apprised us of an idiomatic
meaning of “keep Arms.” Thus, the most natural reading
of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have
weapons.”
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 9
Opinion of the Court
The phrase “keep arms” was not prevalent in the written
documents of the founding period that we have found,
but there are a few examples, all of which favor viewing
the right to “keep Arms” as an individual right unconnected
with militia service. William Blackstone, for example,
wrote that Catholics convicted of not attending
service in the Church of England suffered certain penalties,
one of which was that they were not permitted to
“keep arms in their houses.” 4 Commentaries on the Laws
of England 55 (1769) (hereinafter Blackstone); see also 1
W. & M., c. 15, §4, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 422 (1689)
(“[N]o Papist . . . shall or may have or keep in his House
. . . any Arms . . . ”); 1 Hawkins, Treatise on the Pleas of
the Crown 26 (1771) (similar). Petitioners point to militia
laws of the founding period that required militia members
to “keep” arms in connection with militia service, and they
conclude from this that the phrase “keep Arms” has a
militia-related connotation. See Brief for Petitioners 16–
17 (citing laws of Delaware, New Jersey, and Virginia).
This is rather like saying that, since there are many statutes
that authorize aggrieved employees to “file complaints”
with federal agencies, the phrase “file complaints”
has an employment-related connotation. “Keep arms” was
simply a common way of referring to possessing arms, for
militiamen and everyone else.7
——————
7 See, e.g., 3 A Compleat Collection of State-Tryals 185 (1719) (“Hath
not every Subject power to keep Arms, as well as Servants in his House
for defence of his Person?”); T. Wood, A New Institute of the Imperial or
Civil Law 282 (1730) (“Those are guilty of publick Force, who keep
Arms in their Houses, and make use of them otherwise than upon
Journeys or Hunting, or for Sale . . .”); A Collection of All the Acts of
Assembly, Now in Force, in the Colony of Virginia 596 (1733) (“Free
Negros, Mulattos, or Indians, and Owners of Slaves, seated at Frontier
Plantations, may obtain Licence from a Justice of Peace, for keeping
Arms, &c.”); J. Ayliffe, A New Pandect of Roman Civil Law 195 (1734)
(“Yet a Person might keep Arms in his House, or on his Estate, on the
Account of Hunting, Navigation, Travelling, and on the Score of Selling
10 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to
“carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete
Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford
English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford).
When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning
that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—
confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S.
125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of
“carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE
GINSBURG wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is,
as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate[s]:
‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing
or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and
ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict
with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion)
——————
them in the way of Trade or Commerce, or such Arms as accrued to him
by way of Inheritance”); J. Trusler, A Concise View of the Common Law
and Statute Law of England 270 (1781) (“if [papists] keep arms in their
houses, such arms may be seized by a justice of the peace”); Some
Considerations on the Game Laws 54 (1796) (“Who has been deprived
by [the law] of keeping arms for his own defence? What law forbids the
veriest pauper, if he can raise a sum sufficient for the purchase of it,
from mounting his Gun on his Chimney Piece . . . ?”); 3 B. Wilson, The
Works of the Honourable James Wilson 84 (1804) (with reference to
state constitutional right: “This is one of our many renewals of the
Saxon regulations. ‘They were bound,’ says Mr. Selden, ‘to keep arms
for the preservation of the kingdom, and of their own person’ ”); W.
Duer, Outlines of the Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States
31–32 (1833) (with reference to colonists’ English rights: “The right of
every individual to keep arms for his defence, suitable to his condition
and degree; which was the public allowance, under due restrictions of
the natural right of resistance and self-preservation”); 3 R. Burn,
Justice of the Peace and the Parish Officer 88 (1815) (“It is, however,
laid down by Serjeant Hawkins, . . . that if a lessee, after the end of the
term, keep arms in his house to oppose the entry of the lessor, . . .”);
State v. Dempsey, 31 N. C. 384, 385 (1849) (citing 1840 state law
making it a misdemeanor for a member of certain racial groups “to
carry about his person or keep in his house any shot gun or other
arms”).
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 11
Opinion of the Court
(quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We
think that JUSTICE GINSBURG accurately captured the
natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase
implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose
of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes
participation in a structured military organization.
From our review of founding-era sources, we conclude
that this natural meaning was also the meaning that
“bear arms” had in the 18th century. In numerous instances,
“bear arms” was unambiguously used to refer to
the carrying of weapons outside of an organized militia.
The most prominent examples are those most relevant to
the Second Amendment: Nine state constitutional provisions
written in the 18th century or the first two decades
of the 19th, which enshrined a right of citizens to “bear
arms in defense of themselves and the state” or “bear arms
in defense of himself and the state.” 8 It is clear from those
formulations that “bear arms” did not refer only to carry-
——————
8 See Pa. Declaration of Rights §XIII, in 5 Thorpe 3083 (“That the
people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the
state. . . ”); Vt. Declaration of Rights §XV, in 6 id., at 3741 (“That the
people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the
State. . .”); Ky. Const., Art. XII, cl. 23 (1792), in 3 id., at 1264, 1275
(“That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves
and the State shall not be questioned”); Ohio Const., Art. VIII, §20
(1802), in 5 id., at 2901, 2911 (“That the people have a right to bear
arms for the defence of themselves and the State . . . ”); Ind. Const., Art.
I, §20 (1816), in 2 id., at 1057, 1059 (“That the people have a right to
bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State. . . ”); Miss.
Const., Art. I, §23 (1817), in 4 id., at 2032, 2034 (“Every citizen has a
right to bear arms, in defence of himself and the State”); Conn. Const.,
Art. I, §17 (1818), in 1 id., at 536, 538 (“Every citizen has a right to bear
arms in defence of himself and the state”); Ala. Const., Art. I, §23
(1819), in 1 id., at 96, 98 (“Every citizen has a right to bear arms in
defence of himself and the State”); Mo. Const., Art. XIII, §3 (1820), in 4
id., at 2150, 2163 (“[T]hat their right to bear arms in defence of themselves
and of the State cannot be questioned”). See generally Volokh,
State Constitutional Rights to Keep and Bear Arms, 11 Tex. Rev. L. &
Politics 191 (2006).
12 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
ing a weapon in an organized military unit. Justice James
Wilson interpreted the Pennsylvania Constitution’s armsbearing
right, for example, as a recognition of the natural
right of defense “of one’s person or house”—what he called
the law of “self preservation.” 2 Collected Works of James
Wilson 1142, and n. x (K. Hall & M. Hall eds. 2007) (citing
Pa. Const., Art. IX, §21 (1790)); see also T. Walker, Introduction
to American Law 198 (1837) (“Thus the right of
self-defence [is] guaranteed by the [Ohio] constitution”);
see also id., at 157 (equating Second Amendment with
that provision of the Ohio Constitution). That was also
the interpretation of those state constitutional provisions
adopted by pre-Civil War state courts.9 These provisions
demonstrate—again, in the most analogous linguistic
context—that “bear arms” was not limited to the carrying
of arms in a militia.
The phrase “bear Arms” also had at the time of the
founding an idiomatic meaning that was significantly
different from its natural meaning: “to serve as a soldier,
do military service, fight” or “to wage war.” See Linguists’
Brief 18; post, at 11 (STEVENS, J., dissenting). But it
unequivocally bore that idiomatic meaning only when
followed by the preposition “against,” which was in turn
followed by the target of the hostilities. See 2 Oxford 21.
(That is how, for example, our Declaration of Independence
¶28, used the phrase: “He has constrained our fellow
Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms
against their Country . . . .”) Every example given by
petitioners’ amici for the idiomatic meaning of “bear arms”
——————
9 See Bliss v. Commonwealth, 2 Litt. 90, 91–92 (Ky. 1822); State v.
Reid, 1 Ala. 612, 616–617 (1840); State v. Schoultz, 25 Mo. 128, 155
(1857); see also Simpson v. State, 5 Yer. 356, 360 (Tenn. 1833) (interpreting
similar provision with “common defence” purpose); State v.
Huntly, 25 N. C. 418, 422–423 (1843) (same); cf. Nunn v. State, 1 Ga.
243, 250–251 (1846) (construing Second Amendment); State v. Chandler,
5 La. Ann. 489, 489–490 (1850) (same).
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 13
Opinion of the Court
from the founding period either includes the preposition
“against” or is not clearly idiomatic. See Linguists’ Brief
18–23. Without the preposition, “bear arms” normally
meant (as it continues to mean today) what JUSTICE
GINSBURG’s opinion in Muscarello said.
In any event, the meaning of “bear arms” that petitioners
and JUSTICE STEVENS propose is not even the (sometimes)
idiomatic meaning. Rather, they manufacture a
hybrid definition, whereby “bear arms” connotes the
actual carrying of arms (and therefore is not really an
idiom) but only in the service of an organized militia. No
dictionary has ever adopted that definition, and we have
been apprised of no source that indicates that it carried
that meaning at the time of the founding. But it is easy
to see why petitioners and the dissent are driven to the
hybrid definition. Giving “bear Arms” its idiomatic meaning
would cause the protected right to consist of the right
to be a soldier or to wage war—an absurdity that no
commentator has ever endorsed. See L. Levy, Origins of
the Bill of Rights 135 (1999). Worse still, the phrase
“keep and bear Arms” would be incoherent. The word
“Arms” would have two different meanings at once:
“weapons” (as the object of “keep”) and (as the object of
“bear”) one-half of an idiom. It would be rather like saying
“He filled and kicked the bucket” to mean “He filled
the bucket and died.” Grotesque.
Petitioners justify their limitation of “bear arms” to the
military context by pointing out the unremarkable fact
that it was often used in that context—the same mistake
they made with respect to “keep arms.” It is especially
unremarkable that the phrase was often used in a military
context in the federal legal sources (such as records of
congressional debate) that have been the focus of petitioners’
inquiry. Those sources would have had little occasion
to use it except in discussions about the standing army and
the militia. And the phrases used primarily in those
14 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
military discussions include not only “bear arms” but also
“carry arms,” “possess arms,” and “have arms”—though no
one thinks that those other phrases also had special military
meanings. See Barnett, Was the Right to Keep and
Bear Arms Conditioned on Service in an Organized Militia?,
83 Tex. L. Rev. 237, 261 (2004). The common references
to those “fit to bear arms” in congressional discussions
about the militia are matched by use of the same
phrase in the few nonmilitary federal contexts where the
concept would be relevant. See, e.g., 30 Journals of Continental
Congress 349–351 (J. Fitzpatrick ed. 1934). Other
legal sources frequently used “bear arms” in nonmilitary
contexts.10 Cunningham’s legal dictionary, cited above,
——————
10 See J. Brydall, Privilegia Magnatud apud Anglos 14 (1704) (Privilege
XXXIII) (“In the 21st Year of King Edward the Third, a Proclamation
Issued, that no Person should bear any Arms within London, and
the Suburbs”); J. Bond, A Compleat Guide to Justices of the Peace 43
(1707) (“Sheriffs, and all other Officers in executing their Offices, and
all other persons pursuing Hu[e] and Cry may lawfully bear arms”); 1
An Abridgment of the Public Statutes in Force and Use Relative to
Scotland (1755) (entry for “Arms”: “And if any person above described
shall have in his custody, use, or bear arms, being thereof convicted
before one justice of peace, or other judge competent, summarily, he
shall for the first offense forfeit all such arms” (quoting 1 Geo. 1, c. 54,
§1)); Statute Law of Scotland Abridged 132–133 (2d ed. 1769) (“Acts for
disarming the highlands” but “exempting those who have particular
licenses to bear arms”); E. de Vattel, The Law of Nations, or, Principles
of the Law of Nature 144 (1792) (“Since custom has allowed persons of
rank and gentlemen of the army to bear arms in time of peace, strict
care should be taken that none but these should be allowed to wear
swords”); E. Roche, Proceedings of a Court-Martial, Held at the Council-
Chamber, in the City of Cork 3 (1798) (charge VI: “With having held
traitorous conferences, and with having conspired, with the like intent,
for the purpose of attacking and despoiling of the arms of several of the
King’s subjects, qualified by law to bear arms”); C. Humphreys, A
Compendium of the Common Law in force in Kentucky 482 (1822) (“n
this country the constitution guaranties to all persons the right to bear
arms; then it can only be a crime to exercise this right in such a manner,
as to terrify people unnecessarily”).
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 15
Opinion of the Court
gave as an example of its usage a sentence unrelated to
military affairs (“Servants and labourers shall use bows
and arrows on Sundays, &c. and not bear other arms”).
And if one looks beyond legal sources, “bear arms” was
frequently used in nonmilitary contexts. See Cramer &
Olson, What Did “Bear Arms” Mean in the Second Amendment?,
6 Georgetown J. L. & Pub. Pol’y (forthcoming Sept.
2008), online at http://papers.ssrn.com/abstract=1086176
(as visited June 24, 2008, and available in Clerk of Court’s
case file) (identifying numerous nonmilitary uses of “bear
arms” from the founding period).
JUSTICE STEVENS points to a study by amici supposedly
showing that the phrase “bear arms” was most frequently
used in the military context. See post, at 12–13, n. 9;
Linguists’ Brief 24. Of course, as we have said, the fact
that the phrase was commonly used in a particular context
does not show that it is limited to that context, and, in any
event, we have given many sources where the phrase was
used in nonmilitary contexts. Moreover, the study’s collection
appears to include (who knows how many times) the
idiomatic phrase “bear arms against,” which is irrelevant.
The amici also dismiss examples such as “ ‘bear arms . . .
for the purpose of killing game’ ” because those uses are
“expressly qualified.” Linguists’ Brief 24. (JUSTICE
STEVENS uses the same excuse for dismissing the state
constitutional provisions analogous to the Second Amendment
that identify private-use purposes for which the
individual right can be asserted. See post, at 12.) That
analysis is faulty. A purposive qualifying phrase that
contradicts the word or phrase it modifies is unknown this
side of the looking glass (except, apparently, in some
courses on Linguistics). If “bear arms” means, as we
think, simply the carrying of arms, a modifier can limit
the purpose of the carriage (“for the purpose of selfdefense”
or “to make war against the King”). But if “bear
arms” means, as the petitioners and the dissent think, the
16 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
carrying of arms only for military purposes, one simply
cannot add “for the purpose of killing game.” The right “to
carry arms in the militia for the purpose of killing game”
is worthy of the mad hatter. Thus, these purposive qualifying
phrases positively establish that “to bear arms” is
not limited to military use.11
JUSTICE STEVENS places great weight on James Madison’s
inclusion of a conscientious-objector clause in his
original draft of the Second Amendment: “but no person
religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled
to render military service in person.” Creating the Bill of
Rights 12 (H. Veit, K. Bowling, & C. Bickford eds. 1991)
(hereinafter Veit). He argues that this clause establishes
that the drafters of the Second Amendment intended “bear
Arms” to refer only to military service. See post, at 26. It
is always perilous to derive the meaning of an adopted
provision from another provision deleted in the drafting
process.12 In any case, what JUSTICE STEVENS would
conclude from the deleted provision does not follow. It was
not meant to exempt from military service those who
——————
11 JUSTICE STEVENS contends, post, at 15, that since we assert that
adding “against” to “bear arms” gives it a military meaning we must
concede that adding a purposive qualifying phrase to “bear arms” can
alter its meaning. But the difference is that we do not maintain that
“against” alters the meaning of “bear arms” but merely that it clarifies
which of various meanings (one of which is military) is intended.
JUSTICE STEVENS, however, argues that “[t]he term ‘bear arms’ is a
familiar idiom; when used unadorned by any additional words, its
meaning is ‘to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight.’ ” Post, at
11. He therefore must establish that adding a contradictory purposive
phrase can alter a word’s meaning.
12 JUSTICE STEVENS finds support for his legislative history inference
from the recorded views of one Antifederalist member of the House.
Post, at 26 n. 25. “The claim that the best or most representative
reading of the [language of the] amendments would conform to the
understanding and concerns of [the Antifederalists] is . . . highly
problematic.” Rakove, The Second Amendment: The Highest Stage of
Originalism, Bogus 74, 81.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 17
Opinion of the Court
objected to going to war but had no scruples about personal
gunfights. Quakers opposed the use of arms not just
for militia service, but for any violent purpose whatsoever—
so much so that Quaker frontiersmen were forbidden
to use arms to defend their families, even though “n
such circumstances the temptation to seize a hunting rifle
or knife in self-defense . . . must sometimes have been
almost overwhelming.” P. Brock, Pacifism in the United
States 359 (1968); see M. Hirst, The Quakers in Peace and
War 336–339 (1923); 3 T. Clarkson, Portraiture of Quakerism
103–104 (3d ed. 1807). The Pennsylvania Militia Act
of 1757 exempted from service those “scrupling the use of
arms”—a phrase that no one contends had an idiomatic
meaning. See 5 Stat. at Large of Pa. 613 (J. Mitchell & H.
Flanders eds. 1898) (emphasis added). Thus, the most
natural interpretation of Madison’s deleted text is that
those opposed to carrying weapons for potential violent
confrontation would not be “compelled to render military
service,” in which such carrying would be required.13
Finally, JUSTICE STEVENS suggests that “keep and bear
Arms” was some sort of term of art, presumably akin to
“hue and cry” or “cease and desist.” (This suggestion
usefully evades the problem that there is no evidence
whatsoever to support a military reading of “keep arms.”)
JUSTICE STEVENS believes that the unitary meaning of
——————
13 The same applies to the conscientious-objector amendments proposed
by Virginia and North Carolina, which said: “That any person
religiously scrupulous of bearing arms ought to be exempted upon
payment of an equivalent to employ another to bear arms in his stead.”
See Veit 19; 4 J. Eliot, The Debates in the Several State Constitutions
on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution 243, 244 (2d ed. 1836)
(reprinted 1941). Certainly their second use of the phrase (“bear arms
in his stead”) refers, by reason of context, to compulsory bearing of
arms for military duty. But their first use of the phrase (“any person
religiously scrupulous of bearing arms”) assuredly did not refer to
people whose God allowed them to bear arms for defense of themselves
but not for defense of their country.
18 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
“keep and bear Arms” is established by the Second
Amendment’s calling it a “right” (singular) rather than
“rights” (plural). See post, at 16. There is nothing to this.
State constitutions of the founding period routinely
grouped multiple (related) guarantees under a singular
“right,” and the First Amendment protects the “right
[singular] of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” See,
e.g., Pa. Declaration of Rights §§IX, XII, XVI, in 5 Thorpe
3083–3084; Ohio Const., Arts. VIII, §§11, 19 (1802), in id.,
at 2910–2911.14 And even if “keep and bear Arms” were a
unitary phrase, we find no evidence that it bore a military
meaning. Although the phrase was not at all common
(which would be unusual for a term of art), we have found
instances of its use with a clearly nonmilitary connotation.
In a 1780 debate in the House of Lords, for example, Lord
Richmond described an order to disarm private citizens
(not militia members) as “a violation of the constitutional
right of Protestant subjects to keep and bear arms for
their own defense.” 49 The London Magazine or Gentleman’s
Monthly Intelligencer 467 (1780). In response,
another member of Parliament referred to “the right of
bearing arms for personal defence,” making clear that no
special military meaning for “keep and bear arms” was
intended in the discussion. Id., at 467–468.15
——————
14 Faced with this clear historical usage, JUSTICE STEVENS resorts to
the bizarre argument that because the word “to” is not included before
“bear” (whereas it is included before “petition” in the First Amendment),
the unitary meaning of “to keep and bear” is established. Post,
at 16, n. 13. We have never heard of the proposition that omitting
repetition of the “to” causes two verbs with different meanings to
become one. A promise “to support and to defend the Constitution of
the United States” is not a whit different from a promise “to support
and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
15 Cf. 3 Geo., 34, §3, in 7 Eng. Stat. at Large 126 (1748) (“That the
Prohibition contained . . . in this Act, of having, keeping, bearing, or
wearing any Arms or Warlike Weapons . . . shall not extend . . . to any
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 19
Opinion of the Court
c. Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of
these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee
the individual right to possess and carry weapons in
case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed
by the historical background of the Second Amendment.
We look to this because it has always been widely understood
that the Second Amendment, like the First and
Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The
very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes
the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it
“shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v.
Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right
granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner
dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The
Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed
. . . .”16
Between the Restoration and the Glorious Revolution,
the Stuart Kings Charles II and James II succeeded in
using select militias loyal to them to suppress political
dissidents, in part by disarming their opponents. See J.
Malcolm, To Keep and Bear Arms 31–53 (1994) (hereinafter
Malcolm); L. Schwoerer, The Declaration of Rights,
1689, p. 76 (1981). Under the auspices of the 1671 Game
Act, for example, the Catholic James II had ordered general
disarmaments of regions home to his Protestant
enemies. See Malcolm 103–106. These experiences
caused Englishmen to be extremely wary of concentrated
military forces run by the state and to be jealous of their
arms. They accordingly obtained an assurance from William
and Mary, in the Declaration of Right (which was
codified as the English Bill of Rights), that Protestants
——————
Officers or their Assistants, employed in the Execution of Justice . . .”).
16 Contrary to JUSTICE STEVENS’ wholly unsupported assertion, post,
at 17, there was no pre-existing right in English law “to use weapons
for certain military purposes” or to use arms in an organized militia.
20 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
would never be disarmed: “That the subjects which are
Protestants may have arms for their defense suitable to
their conditions and as allowed by law.” 1 W. & M., c. 2,
§7, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 441 (1689). This right has
long been understood to be the predecessor to our Second
Amendment. See E. Dumbauld, The Bill of Rights and
What It Means Today 51 (1957); W. Rawle, A View of the
Constitution of the United States of America 122 (1825)
(hereinafter Rawle). It was clearly an individual right,
having nothing whatever to do with service in a militia.
To be sure, it was an individual right not available to the
whole population, given that it was restricted to Protestants,
and like all written English rights it was held only
against the Crown, not Parliament. See Schwoerer, To
Hold and Bear Arms: The English Perspective, in Bogus
207, 218; but see 3 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution
of the United States §1858 (1833) (hereinafter
Story) (contending that the “right to bear arms” is a “limitatio[
n] upon the power of parliament” as well). But it was
secured to them as individuals, according to “libertarian
political principles,” not as members of a fighting force.
Schwoerer, Declaration of Rights, at 283; see also id., at
78; G. Jellinek, The Declaration of the Rights of Man and
of Citizens 49, and n. 7 (1901) (reprinted 1979).
By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had
become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm
122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted
the preeminent authority on English law for the
founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715
(1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one
of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone
136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot
possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service.
It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and selfpreservation,”
id., at 139, and “the right of having and
using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140;
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 21
Opinion of the Court
see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities
concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the
Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence,
by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme,
The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886–
887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory
Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured
in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the
time of the founding understood to be an individual right
protecting against both public and private violence.
And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their
political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists.
In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s,
the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most
rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by
Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep
arms. A New York article of April 1769 said that “t is a
natural right which the people have reserved to themselves,
confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for
their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New
York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under
Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g.,
Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings
of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood
the right to enable individuals to defend themselves.
As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s
Commentaries (by the law professor and former
Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes
to the description of the arms right, Americans understood
the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to
“repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in
his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.” 1 Blackstone’s
Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) (hereinafter
Tucker’s Blackstone). See also W. Duer, Outlines of the
Constitutional Jurisprudence of the United States 31–32
(1833).
22 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text
and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an
individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the
right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s
right of free speech was not, see, e.g., United States v.
Williams, 553 U. S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the
Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry
arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read
the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to
speak for any purpose. Before turning to limitations upon
the individual right, however, we must determine whether
the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment comports
with our interpretation of the operative clause.
2. Prefatory Clause.
The prefatory clause reads: “A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State . . . .”
a. “Well-Regulated Militia.” In United States v.
Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 179 (1939), we explained that “the
Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in
concert for the common defense.” That definition comports
with founding-era sources. See, e.g., Webster (“The militia
of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies,
regiments and brigades . . . and required by law to
attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other
times left to pursue their usual occupations”); The Federalist
No. 46, pp. 329, 334 (B. Wright ed. 1961) (J. Madison)
(“near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands”);
Letter to Destutt de Tracy (Jan. 26, 1811), in The Portable
Thomas Jefferson 520, 524 (M. Peterson ed. 1975) (“[T]he
militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able
to bear arms”).
Petitioners take a seemingly narrower view of the militia,
stating that “[m]ilitias are the state- and congressionally-
regulated military forces described in the Militia
Clauses (art. I, §8, cls. 15–16).” Brief for Petitioners 12.
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 23
Opinion of the Court
Although we agree with petitioners’ interpretive assumption
that “militia” means the same thing in Article I and
the Second Amendment, we believe that petitioners identify
the wrong thing, namely, the organized militia.
Unlike armies and navies, which Congress is given the
power to create (“to raise . . . Armies”; “to provide . . . a
Navy,” Art. I, §8, cls. 12–13), the militia is assumed by
Article I already to be in existence. Congress is given the
power to “provide for calling forth the militia,” §8, cl. 15;
and the power not to create, but to “organiz[e]” it—and not
to organize “a” militia, which is what one would expect if
the militia were to be a federal creation, but to organize
“the” militia, connoting a body already in existence, ibid.,
cl. 16. This is fully consistent with the ordinary definition
of the militia as all able-bodied men. From that pool,
Congress has plenary power to organize the units that will
make up an effective fighting force. That is what Congress
did in the first militia Act, which specified that “each
and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective
states, resident therein, who is or shall be of the
age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years
(except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and
respectively be enrolled in the militia.” Act of May 8,
1792, 1 Stat. 271. To be sure, Congress need not conscript
every able-bodied man into the militia, because nothing in
Article I suggests that in exercising its power to organize,
discipline, and arm the militia, Congress must focus upon
the entire body. Although the militia consists of all ablebodied
men, the federally organized militia may consist of
a subset of them.
Finally, the adjective “well-regulated” implies nothing
more than the imposition of proper discipline and training.
See Johnson 1619 (“Regulate”: “To adjust by rule or
method”); Rawle 121–122; cf. Va. Declaration of Rights
§13 (1776), in 7 Thorpe 3812, 3814 (referring to “a wellregulated
militia, composed of the body of the people,
24 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
trained to arms”).
b. “Security of a Free State.” The phrase “security of
a free state” meant “security of a free polity,” not security
of each of the several States as the dissent below argued,
see 478 F. 3d, at 405, and n. 10. Joseph Story wrote in his
treatise on the Constitution that “the word ‘state’ is used
in various senses [and in] its most enlarged sense, it
means the people composing a particular nation or community.”
1 Story §208; see also 3 id., §1890 (in reference
to the Second Amendment’s prefatory clause: “The militia
is the natural defence of a free country”). It is true that
the term “State” elsewhere in the Constitution refers to
individual States, but the phrase “security of a free state”
and close variations seem to have been terms of art in
18th-century political discourse, meaning a “ ‘free country’
” or free polity. See Volokh, “Necessary to the Security
of a Free State,” 83 Notre Dame L. Rev. 1, 5 (2007); see,
e.g., 4 Blackstone 151 (1769); Brutus Essay III (Nov. 15,
1787), in The Essential Antifederalist 251, 253 (W. Allen
& G. Lloyd eds., 2d ed. 2002). Moreover, the other instances
of “state” in the Constitution are typically accompanied
by modifiers making clear that the reference is to
the several States—“each state,” “several states,” “any
state,” “that state,” “particular states,” “one state,” “no
state.” And the presence of the term “foreign state” in
Article I and Article III shows that the word “state” did
not have a single meaning in the Constitution.
There are many reasons why the militia was thought to
be “necessary to the security of a free state.” See 3 Story
§1890. First, of course, it is useful in repelling invasions
and suppressing insurrections. Second, it renders large
standing armies unnecessary—an argument that Alexander
Hamilton made in favor of federal control over the
militia. The Federalist No. 29, pp. 226, 227 (B. Wright ed.
1961) (A. Hamilton). Third, when the able-bodied men of
a nation are trained in arms and organized, they are
Cite as: 554 U. S. (2008) 25
Opinion of the Court
better able to resist tyranny.
3. Relationship between Prefatory Clause and
Operative Clause
We reach the question, then: Does the preface fit with
an operative clause that creates an individual right to
keep and bear arms? It fits perfectly, once one knows the
history that the founding generation knew and that we
have described above. That history showed that the way
tyrants had eliminated a militia consisting of all the ablebodied
men was not by banning the militia but simply by
taking away the people’s arms, enabling a select militia or
standing army to suppress political opponents. This is
what had occurred in England that prompted codification
of the right to have arms in the English Bill of Rights.
The debate with respect to the right to keep and bear
arms, as with other guarantees in the Bill of Rights, was
not over whether it was desirable (all agreed that it was)
but over whether it needed to be codified in the Constitution.
During the 1788 ratification debates, the fear that
the federal government would disarm the people in order
to impose rule through a standing army or select militia
was pervasive in Antifederalist rhetoric. See, e.g., Letters
from The Federal Farmer III (Oct. 10, 1787), in 2 The
Complete Anti-Federalist 234, 242 (H. Storing ed. 1981).
John Smilie, for example, worried not only that Congress’s
“command of the militia” could be used to create a “select
militia,” or to have “no militia at all,” but also, as a separate
concern, that “[w]hen a select militia is formed; the
people in general may be disarmed.” 2 Documentary
History of the Ratification of the Constitution 508–509 (M.
Jensen ed. 1976) (hereinafter Documentary Hist.). Federalists
responded that because Congress was given no
power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep
and bear arms, such a force could never oppress the people.
See, e.g., A Pennsylvanian III (Feb. 20, 1788), in The
26 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
Origin of the Second Amendment 275, 276 (D. Young ed.,
2d ed. 2001) (hereinafter Young); White, To the Citizens of
Virginia, Feb. 22, 1788, in id., at 280, 281; A Citizen of
America, (Oct. 10, 1787) in id., at 38, 40; Remarks on the
Amendments to the federal Constitution, Nov. 7, 1788, in
id., at 556. It was understood across the political spectrum
that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen
militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive
military force if the constitutional order broke down.
It is therefore entirely sensible that the Second Amendment’s
prefatory clause announces the purpose for which
the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia.
The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving
the militia was the only reason Americans valued the
ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more
important for self-defense and hunting. But the threat
that the new Federal Government would destroy the
citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason
that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified
in a written Constitution. JUSTICE BREYER’s assertion
that individual self-defense is merely a “subsidiary
interest” of the right to keep and bear arms, see post, at
36, is profoundly mistaken. He bases that assertion solely
upon the prologue—but that can only show that selfdefense
had little to do with the right’s codification; it was
the central component of the right itself.
Besides ignoring the historical reality that the Second
Amendment was not intended to lay down a “novel principl[
e]” but rather codified a right “inherited from our
English ancestors,” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U. S. 275,
281 (1897), petitioners’ interpretation does not even
achieve the narrower purpose that prompted codification
of the right. If, as they believe, the Second Amendment
right is no more than the right to keep and use weapons as
a member of an organized militia, see Brief for Petititioners
8—if, that is, the organized militia is the sole instituCite
as: 554 U. S. (2008) 27
Opinion of the Court
tional beneficiary of the Second Amendment’s guarantee—
it does not assure the existence of a “citizens’ militia” as a
safeguard against tyranny. For Congress retains plenary
authority to organize the militia, which must include the
authority to say who will belong to the organized force.17
That is why the first Militia Act’s requirement that only
whites enroll caused States to amend their militia laws to
exclude free blacks. See Siegel, The Federal Government’s
Power to Enact Color-Conscious Laws, 92 Nw. U. L. Rev.
477, 521–525 (1998). Thus, if petitioners are correct, the
Second Amendment protects citizens’ right to use a gun in
an organization from which Congress has plenary authority
to exclude them. It guarantees a select militia of the
sort the Stuart kings found useful, but not the people’s
militia that was the concern of the founding generation.
B
Our interpretation is confirmed by analogous armsbearing
rights in state constitutions that preceded and
immediately followed adoption of the Second Amendment.
Four States adopted analogues to the Federal Second
Amendment in the period between independence and the
——————
17 Article I, §8, cl. 16 of the Constitution gives Congress the power
“[t]o provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the
Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively,
the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.”
It could not be clearer that Congress’s “organizing” power, unlike its
“governing” power, can be invoked even for that part of the militia not
“employed in the Service of the United States.” JUSTICE STEVENS
provides no support whatever for his contrary view, see post, at 19 n.
20. Both the Federalists and Anti-Federalists read the provision as it
was written, to permit the creation of a “select” militia. See The Federalist
No. 29, pp. 226, 227 (B. Wright ed. 1961); Centinel, Revived, No.
XXIX, Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, Sept. 9, 1789, in Young
711, 712.
28 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
ratification of the Bill of Rights. Two of them—
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
Norway did it, Australia did it, Canada and England

So did Russia, Germany, China and Cambodia.

How'd that work out?

---


obviously, Norway, Australia, Canada and England did it "better", more complete, smarter, duh
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 18, 2018 - 02:55pm PT
The Second Amendment precisely protects the kinds of weapons a foot soldier would carry.

prove it, show that language from the Constitution

precisely
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
Yeah..You should have listened to Werner but you didn't proving you're just another internet whack job...
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:25pm PT
Herr Braun is right. Choose any of his posts.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
Jody, I'm curious. If the Congress passed a law requiring the turning in of all semi-automatic high capacity rapid fire rifles, like an AR-15, and you owned one, would you comply (after all the legal challenges had failed)?
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:34pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
Norton, don't be so ignorant. The First Amendment wasn't written in the time of the internet, radio, and TV either. The Second Amendment precisely protects the kinds of weapons a foot soldier would carry. Then it was muskets, today it is semi-automatic rifles(fully auto having been banned years ago).

This statement says to me that you accept the "full auto" ban. Why would not a ban on ar-15-style weapons not also be legal?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
So did Russia, Germany, China and Cambodia.

How'd that work out?

I'm hard pressed to be able to point out regular mass shootings in schools in those countries. Am I wrong?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
Not sure about events at schools, but there were plenty of mass shootings.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:43pm PT
he's starting to come unglued, he can't take the pressure:

Trump takes on the FBI, Russia probe and 2016 election in a nine-hour tweetstorm

President Trump questioned the intensifying special counsel's investigation of his campaign and administration while attacking his own national security adviser, the FBI, Hillary Clinton and others in a remarkable nine-hour span of tweets that included profanity and misspellings.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:46pm PT
Trump's squirming as they tighten the screws on him...LMAO...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
Gun policies of other countries, and how they have responded to mass casualties:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shootings/?utm_term=.7c48e57ee6f4

BTW nice definition for AR-15 type weapons:

" high-powered self-loading rifles and burst-firing weapons."
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Feb 18, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
The Second Amendment precisely protects the kinds of weapons a foot soldier would carry.

If this were true then we should be able to keep and bear grenades too.

And I guess if we were ever able to shake off these unfair and burdensome restrictions to our 2nd amendment right to grenades, it would makes sense that we arm our school teachers and janitors with grenades and grenade launchers.

#jodylogic
F

climber
away from the ground
Feb 18, 2018 - 09:40pm PT



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA

Feb 18, 2018 - 11:42am PT
Right you are. A pity that the operation I had three months ago so I could get out more was all phukked up, but thanks for asking.

How do they fuc k up a head from ass removal procedure?
TLP

climber
Feb 18, 2018 - 10:42pm PT
Dingus, you are right that the Supreme Court decided (wrongly) that one half of the 2nd amendment takes priority over the other. However, interestingly, even Mr. originalist Scalia allowed that it really would be correct to construe it only to cover the weapons in existence at the time - single shot muzzle loaders. I'd be fine with that.

But it will take a long time to restaff that Court to make a wiser decision consistent with the original verbiage. And to amend the 2nd amendment in a meaningful way - not in our lifetimes and probably not before the U.S. goes to pieces itself, which it is rapidly on the way to doing. The politics and number of states it would take is just infeasible.

No, the remedy will come from a time-honored American method: criminal and civil liability. It wouldn't be hard to repeal the unconstitutional law protecting the firearms industry (which violates the 1st amendment protecting the right of the people to petition for redress of grievances - namely damages); or to run it up the courts and have it thrown out. States could pass laws holding owners or sellers of firearms criminally liable in case the ones they sold/transferred/gave without taking every precaution and following every required procedure were used in crimes - with penalties matching those of the crime itself. And states could increase the penalties for failing to do background checks or a host of other similar things. People and merchants would start to get a lot more careful. Insurance companies would start to get a lot more hesitant, and people might start to think, do I really need this thing? Nah.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 19, 2018 - 05:37am PT
Some of you who don't smoke dope may be able to remember back to the '90s, when the homicide rate was twice what it is today.

Homicide of all kinds - firearms included - is on a downward trend, and has been for over 25 years. Is NOW the time to f*#k with the Constitution?

And all this time the homicide rate is dropping, people are buying more guns than ever.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 19, 2018 - 07:40am PT
Trump received 30 million from the NRA for his presidential campaign...Get money out of politics...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:41am PT
Norton:
Clearly, while the rate of overall homicides is down the rate of mass murder is now escalating
Is this an issues? I do not think so.
Victims of mass shootings represent a small percent of overall number of victims.

states with restrictive gun laws like Massachusetts have lower rates of gun death than Alaska with loose gun laws

"Correlation doesn't mean causation."
What about such cities as Chicago and New York?
They have tougher gun laws and at the same time more homicides than e.g. in Houston.

If we care about people lives, we need to pay attention to all causes of death; in this case it would be easier to identify an opportunities with the highest ROI.
Jorroh

climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:49am PT
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

Here you go Yury.
Have a quick read...this might help you to become a bit less relentlessly idiotic.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:59am PT
Norton - Your chart looks like propaganda.

Forty five mass shootings in the first 6 mos. of 2015?

List ten.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 19, 2018 - 09:02am PT
Because effective gun control is going to require massive support, way way more than 50%.

Indeed, considering that the rural ares of the nation are vastly over-represented in both houses of congress.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 09:22am PT
I heard an interesting psychological study of mass shooters.

Most are white men(we knew that), and most mass shooters are from rural america.
It seems that many of these shooters feel that they have been wronged, be it from a failed relationship, or from society in general.

Supposedly dumbf*#k drumpf asked his guests, at mar a lago, what he should do about gun control, wtf!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 19, 2018 - 09:24am PT
California’s law also empowers police to petition for the protective orders, which can require authorities to remove firearms for up to one year.

“Up to one year”? Isn’t that about the dumbest thing you’ve ever read?
Oh, wait, I forgot it comes from the Cali legislature, which thinks 100 billion dollars for
a train nobody will ride is money well spent but thinks giving guns back to a nutter is
also the right thing to do.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 09:39am PT

But what about the bombings?

There were over 200 bombings in the US in 1970 alone, by all sorts of political groups (the Puerto Rican Liberation Front, the Jewish Defense League, the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, anti-Castro groups, white supremacists, etc., etc.) There was essentially no religious terrorism; that came in the 80s and 90s. But let's zoom in on 1978 onward, after the crazy period we inaccurately call "the sixties".


Now let's look at terrorist acts of all kinds in the US:


Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 19, 2018 - 10:18am PT
“Up to one year”? Isn’t that about the dumbest thing you’ve ever read?

The purpose of the law is to try to prevent guns from being used in the heat of the moment. If a person is considered a threat after a year then the authorities can petition for another weapons ban. A lifetime ban is likely to not pass constitutional muster (due process for a start)
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 10:28am PT
Thanks T Hocking.

Until recently, mass shootings were defined as four or more killed. Gang related and domestic violence incidents were excluded. One current definition includes events where at least four people were shot, even if no one was killed.

If we want to have honest discussions about this, let's stop redefining key factors.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2018 - 11:14am PT
Trump Jr. to give foreign policy speech while on ‘unofficial’ business trip to India

A plan for Trump Tower buyers to meet the president’s son sparked concerns of potential conflict of interest, and the fact that Donald Trump Jr. will be giving a policy speech complicates the matter further, ethics experts said.

Now we'll really find out about the quality of our leadership.....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2018 - 11:22am PT
“Up to one year”? Isn’t that about the dumbest thing you’ve ever read?
Oh, wait, I forgot it comes from the Cali legislature, which thinks 100 billion dollars for
a train nobody will ride is money well spent but thinks giving guns back to a nutter is
also the right thing to do.

Makes me think they are coming for you.

On the other hand, it is renewable.

But this about logic, from someone who supports never taking guns away, or never not allowing them to buy, to a nutter......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 19, 2018 - 11:43am PT
^^^^ Obviously you too need to sign up for my StuporTopo Reading Comprehension and
Just Say No To Whole Clothe Fabrication class. Or should I just let you post for me so I
don’t have to guess at what you think I should say?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 19, 2018 - 11:56am PT

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/02/17/a-former-russian-troll-speaks-it-was-like-being-in-orwells-world/?utm_term=.4832dd9426f2

A Russian man describes his "day at the office" routine. A factory job, which involved writing comments to news articles.


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 19, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2015/12/31/mass-shootings-in-the-u-s-what-makes-so-many-american-men-dangerous/
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 19, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 19, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
I know i'll feel safer when Hocking turns in his guns...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 19, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
The fact that liddle tRump said he could shoot someone in middle of the street and his supporters would not care is turning out to be the only truthful thing he has ever said.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 19, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
We the people have to alter the 2nd amendment if we want to have fundamental gun control. There is no other viable path. The method for changing the constitution is well-established. It will take a super majority of Americans to pull it off.

Are we ready? I can tell you this, emotionally piling on Jody may be satisfying in the short term, but you alienate other gun owners when you do so. But hey, don't listen to me, I don't know sh#t. I'm just another American.

By the time we have the political super majority to push through an amendment repealing the 2nd, the battle for gun control would have already been long won. Putting your hope on this seems about as effective as just saying, "gee, once people learn to be nice to each other guns won't be a problem."

I guess you could have the scenario where a super majority was passing laws and the SC was striking them down and this was the only way forward.

I'm very cynical that anything, barring maybe some sort of futuristic technology, is going to change anytime soon. Vulnerable Dems voting for gun control laws that don't get enacted but may help cause them to lose elections is a lose/lose situation.

Over the course of decades/generations, sure, attitudes can change. The pro gun control side needs to create an organization as effective as the NRA. Much easier said than done.

As far as how to define an assault rifle ban: One thing that should be done is to get rid of both high capacity guns and removable magazines. If you had to hand load 3 or 4 bullets into a gun at a time, it would cut back on the ability of mass shootings while still allowing rifles for hunting. (Hey, if you are that bad of a shot, pick another sport). For home defense, people should use shotguns.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands

Feb 19, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

This^ shows two mass shootings in the first six months of 2015. Your chart shows 42 mass shootings.

Which is correct?

As far as how to define an assault rifle ban: One thing that should be done is to get rid of both high capacity guns and removable magazines. If you had to hand load 3 or 4 bullets into a gun at a time, it would cut back on the ability of mass shootings while still allowing rifles for hunting. (Hey, if you are that bad of a shot, pick another sport). For home defense, people should use shotguns.

Good post.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 02:45pm PT
Your chart is dishonest propaganda, using the newest, all-inclusive definition for mass shooting. Even Mother Jones challenged it.

In fact, there have been four mass shootings this year. Or, if you count using the federal government’s current criteria—three or more victims killed in an indiscriminate public rampage—there have been six mass shootings this year.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/no-there-were-not-355-mass-shootings-this-year/

That's for all of 2015.

I just wanted to see if you'd own it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands

Feb 19, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
grow up Edward,

Grow up?

Like you?

<chortle>
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
Somebody been stalkin' the eigth dwarf?


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 19, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
If we want shorter term significant steps to protect our children then I think it may be time to spend the money to secure our public school campuses, with fences, metal detectors and armed police presence.

And just think, back in our day at school all we had to worry about was Soviet H-bombs!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 19, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
F&ckin Commies!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
Trump wall prototypes paid protection money


The San Diego Union-Tribune reported in January that the city spent $826,354 on security, including about $227,500 in overtime and the balance in wages and supplies. The department was not providing security for the walls but patrolling and securing the area near the build — city streets in an Otay Mesa business park
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
That's fake news...Obama wasn't an American citizen...His parents were muslim...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
Yes. Really an African Muslim from a sh*thole country. Thank God we have a real American like tRump and his KKK posse to show us the way to fat old white man combover paradise.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
Johnny, I'm confused. If someone is born in America of American citizens, they are automatically not citizens if the parents are Muslim?

How about Jews?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 19, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
Well Harvey Lee Oswald didn't own an AR-15 did he? Nor did Jim Jones
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2018 - 06:41am PT
Well Harvey Lee Oswald didn't own an AR-15 did he?

And how many did he kill?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2018 - 07:02am PT
When did his CIA duty end?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 07:28am PT
Everybody wants to own a gun, fine, but they have to buy liability insurance along with it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 07:44am PT
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
 Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

I'll drink to that. ;-)

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
 Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
 Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 07:53am PT
^^^^^^^I have a problem with people who think that the constitution is static. scalia thought that way, and you see what happened to him.
sempervirens

climber
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:10am PT
Edward,
Those quotes are their opinions. Respected as Madison and Jefferson may be or not be, their opinions are not binding, right.

Consider the first one. If that is your opinion then would you agree we peaceable citizens should have legal right to own all and any arms? Upthread, grenades were mentioned. Add to that: grenade launchers, flame throwers, tanks, etc. If you are absolutist in the right to bear arms, where would you draw the line? Or is there no line? Take the usual NRA-supported arguments: "...only criminals will have flame throwers...", "only a good guy with a tank can stop a bad guy with a tank...". Considering that, what should we do?

The constitution, of course is binding and I'm not arguing otherwise.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:16am PT
Static?

Are you familiar with Amendments 11-27?

And what are you referring to about what happened to Scalia?

He died in his sleep at age 79.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:18am PT
If we want shorter term significant steps to protect our children then I think it may be time to spend the money to secure our public school campuses, with fences, metal detectors and armed police presence. We do this for our fricken legislators and many government facilities. This is a path we can start on tomorrow with no constitutional obstacles. I would vote to spend my tax money this way even though it makes me cringe a little. I think it's a wise spend. Every public campus, everyone of them, and with real, trained police presense. Take the money out of the military and bullet trains and other similar nonsense to pay for it.

Not enough would agree to their tax money going for this, so both parties would just borrow more. Secondly, since the pro-gun lobby demands that any new gun control measures must be 100% effective, I demand no half measures for any school physical protection, with the resultant trillions in cost being covered by excise taxes on .223/5.56 ammo, all pistol and rifle magazines with >5 round capacity and all high velocity semi-auto rifles capable of using such magazines.

Alternatively, I propose re-instating the assault weapon ban with the following modifications: The "National militia recruitment act" would ban the sale or transfer of all high velocity semi-auto rifles with removable magazines or fixed magazines holding >5 rounds, and ban the sale or transfer of all magazines for such rifles. All existing rifles to be registered with the state National Guard for use in defense of the nation as needed. Annual registration renewal requires certification that owners have not been diagnosed with any inappropriate mental condition, prescribed any mind-altering drugs, and have not taken any legal or illegal mind-altering drugs. Active or former military or national guard members in good standing would be excluded from the purchase ban. Perhaps also, like Jury Duty, a random drawing of registered owners to attend two-week unpaid military training. Failure to attend or complete would void registration.

None of this should require constitutional changes either. The assault rifle ban withstood challenge and who could object to linking ownership of such weapons with defense of the nation? We register our property with the county, we register our eligibility to vote with the state, we register our birth with Social Security and our lives with Selective Service. We don't see these registration as limiting our rights, but as ensuring them.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:27am PT
Edward,
Those quotes are their opinions.

We can't even be sure these are their opinions. These were their arguments in support of some desired outcome. It would be like suggesting a defense lawyers argument of his client's innocence is proof of that innocence, or even proof that the lawyer believes in that innocence.

It's trivial to show that Jefferson didn't believe everything he wrote or said.

TE
sempervirens

climber
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:29am PT
So did Russia, Germany, China and Cambodia.

How'd that work out?

Also, let's look at the effectiveness of our war on drugs. Who's to say a war on guns will be more successful.

These are simple and all too common logical fallacies. The oranges-and-apples comparison. The historical genocides in Russia, Germany, etc. are a bit more complex than the banning of guns. They are not directly comparable to Canada, Australia, and England today. If they were, then your argument is, what... that we can prevent a genocide in the US with our guns? It seems unlikely, eh.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Sketchy Out and Proud!



EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:42am PT
Also, let's look at the effectiveness of our war on drugs. Who's to say a war on guns will be more successful.

Are you saying this is a logical fallacy, as well?

To clarify, my point is directed at a complete ban of all guns. With our porous border, it would be difficult to prevent gun smuggling.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:49am PT
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
 Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

interesting, that good old revered Jefferson thought that all men are created equal

except that he was like just about everyone back then, severely racist, and a slave owner

all men are created equal, except black men and women

and only white, male, landowners should be allowed to vote in this country

sempervirens

climber
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:29am PT
Are you saying this is a logical fallacy, as well?

To clarify, my point is directed at a complete ban of all guns. With our porous border, it would be difficult to prevent gun smuggling

Consider the differences between guns and drugs.
1. Many drugs are physically addicting while no guns are so. Desperate addicts have an effect on the market and profitability of producing and selling drugs.

2. Drugs also differ in that a controlled drug can have legitimate use beyond its illegality for trade, e.g. opiates. Guns, if banned, would also have some legitimate use, e.g. law enforcement, but much less so. We would not be legally issuing the guns to the general population as we do with drugs. The drugs have immediate physical use. Guns might be needed for defense.

3. The value of drugs per pound (or measured in volume if you like, as in one container load, or one truck load) is much greater. Although the price of an AR-15 would rise with a ban it is unlikely to rise to the level of an equal amount, in weight or volume, of white powder drugs. Less profit, therefore less smuggling.

4. If we allow legal drugs there certainly are some negative consequences. But are they directly comparable to consequences of guns? It would be difficult to enter a shopping mall and immediately force a dozen people to take drugs and drop dead. So that is a big difference too.

5. The many different drugs and many different guns further confound the comparison. Which guns are we comparing to which drugs. True, we can compare all guns to all drugs but any regulation is unlikely to be so absolute. Some drugs and some guns would be allowable under some circumstances. That is a lot of variation.

I agree it would be difficult to prevent gun smuggling. But a ban would make it more difficult for a crazy person to obtain a gun. If a ban saved a life it would be worth it. So while there are some useful comparisons between drug and gun laws the differences are great enough that we must consider them without muddying the water.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:32am PT
but if I was a strict and literal Constitutionalist which I am not, I would have to believe that the Second Amendment written intention said nothing more than being able to quickly round up citizens in order to defeat any foreign invader like they just did with England

"the Second Amendment written intention said nothing more than being able to quickly round up citizens in order to defeat any foreign invader"

I think that is the gist of it.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:46am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:46am PT
Unfortunately this has nothing to do with the Constitution anymore. The 2nd Amendment as been coopted by the NRA, and is now the justification for unrestrained, gun related capitalism, fueled by intentional, irrational paranoia.
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