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Mimi
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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He apologized. Move on. Everyone knows it was a horrible tragedy.
Or better yet, delete this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Huh? Only an honorable mention, is that all? I'm disappointed in you.
On a serious note you have no f'cking clue what transpired that day and how many people including aircraft were called out in weather that was very dangerous to all. Two rescuers actually ran up the death slabs in the rain to half dome for this. The cables were down and the girls were up there without proper safety equipment.
Andanother, get a life fool .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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And graniteclimber is stupid fool also.
He's berating Ron on the very same thread that he claims should be inappropriate for that kind of dialog.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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sorry. Maybe you should post that over on the other thread. You know, the one where the family members and friends are viewing.
And while you're at it, could you do a little research on how much it costs to do a heli-rescue? I'm sure the family would like to discuss this, you know, on an "accounting scale" as you put it.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Nov 23, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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Second Mimi, move on you wanker....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 23, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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If you look at the body of andanother's posts, he's always bitching about something.
Ronbo is a decent guy, while andanother is just doing his best to make things worse.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Nov 23, 2006 - 12:37pm PT
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Wow, if I die I hope people don't just get all sad about it and not even think how to prevent others from making the same mistake. Just look at El Cap, how many of us take it that serious? People getting all mad at Ron is just as stupid as people who think reading the AA North American Accidents book is bad karma. Where in reality it is a good thing to read, learn from others mistakes so you don't get all f*#ked up. IF others hadn't rappeled off their ropes I doubt that I ever would have started tying knots in the ends. Now lets all just cry everytime one of us dies... f*#k thinking.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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In the "Half Dome Accident" thread, Piton Ron posted:
I have gotten a raft of sh#t for my first post, not only on this thread but in emails from graniteclimber as well.
Let me clarify that my first post was not intended to suggest that cost considerations should supercede consideration of the tragic nature of this incident.
Rather I was suggesting that we ALL might act more carefully if we look in depth at the potential comsequences of our actions.
For graniteclimber to write me (and I quote):
"As for the chopper crew, no one is holding a gun to their heads. If they don't want to take the risk, they should work in another profession. Besides longlining out a body is not urgent and should not involve particularly risky flying."
I think that strikes me as an attitude both cavalier and callous.
As if to underscore this yesterday here in Utah a SAR chopper searching for a missing woman crashed in the Green River with two on board. Both were critically injured. The pilot,(incorrect name deleted), from Reno has died.
Ron was dredging up a quote of mine from a private email exchange a week ago. Foolishly I rose to the bait and posted a response there in the thread, which as has been correctly pointed out, furthered the turn for the worse the thread had taken.
My response to Piton Ron's post above:
=
First, the friends and family of (incorrect name deleted) have my sincere condolences. SAR personnel are the real heroes of the climbing community.
Second, let me address Piton Ron's comments above which quote a private email from me out of context. As did others, I found Ron Olevsky's comments incredibly callous and inappropriate. However, I was pleased to see Ron's 11/14/06 4:43 post, in which he voiced regret for his posts but said he didn't believe in deleting posts.
Silly me, I took Ron's purported regret at face-value. I sent Ron what I believe was low-key, nonconfrontational encouragement to make an exception in this case and consier deleting his posts.
I was taken aback by Ron's response. Apparently his 11/14/06 4:43 post was dishonest and insincere and Ron was, in actuality, completely unrepentant.
Ironically, I don't disagree with Ron's basic point, but I am not willing to spit on someone's grave to make it.
I stand by my comments within the context written. It is not generally my practice to post someone else's private emails without their permission. However, Piton Ron apparently has no such compunctions and a full airing is necessary to set the record straight.
Full email exchange with Piton Ron (Ron Olevky) follows:
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:06:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber"
Subject: half dome accident
To: rolevs@earthlink.net
" I think deleting posts is usually bogus.
I said it. I regret it . Get over it."
Normally I'd agree if it was just us supertopo regulars.
But friends and family are going to google the thread up and there is no need for them to see this kind of discussion. Just my opinion.
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:38:39 -0700
Subject: Re: half dome accident
From: "Olevsky"
To: "graniteclimber"
Actually I soft peddled it.
More cautious behavior could have saved the chopper crew substantial
risk.
Everybody always has an excuse and is never personally responsible, and
everybody else has to foot the bill.
I'm sure this is not black and white, but inevitably people can not
always cop out.
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:46:03 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber" A
Subject: Re: half dome accident
To: "Olevsky"
Who said she's not responsible? She made a mistake and paid for it with her life. What more a price would you have her pay?
As for the chopper crew, no one is holding a gun to their heads. If they don't want to take the risk, they should work in another profession. Besides longlining out a body is not urgent and should not involve particularly risky flying.
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:29:53 -0700
Subject: Re: half dome accident
From: "Olevsky"
To: "graniteclimber"
Want to tell THEM that?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:38:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber"
Subject: Re: half dome accident
To: "Olevsky"
The chopper crew? Absolutely. They would agree. I know chopper rescue pilots. They like what they do. They are proud of what they do. They don't need you to look out for them. Nor would I expect them to begrudge the victim the final flight out, as you evidently do.
Edit: Ron emailed me that he incorrectly named the deceased in his post. I have deleted the incorrect name from both his quoted post and my response.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Graniteclimber
You're an even a bigger fool than I thought, with your last post above.
Do you really think about what you're saying? Not very clearly as I can see.
Both you and that andanother guy need to sit in the corner and really really think about wtf you guys are really doing and saying.
Spend a few years in that corner .......
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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Thanks for all those great responses. But most of you typed way too much. All you needed to type was:
"I missed the point, but I really want to respond anyway".
And an honest thanks to graniteclimber for his response. It's good to see that SOMEONE gets it.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2006 - 11:28am PT
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A tragedy is something from which we all lose something dear, that becomes forever lost. What happened is a very great tragedy. These threads are also a tragedy. There is no recovery from either.
We do try to learn so as to avoid repetition. When each of us has suggestions as to how to avoid future pain, it is always a good rule to make our suggestions to someone who can do something about it. This is what we should have done in this case.
The way forward lies in accepting that, whatever our disagreements, everyone is feeling the same pain. That pain does not separate us; it unites us.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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Sorry, but this directed to the 2 clowns mentioned below.
I was truly pissed about these two clowns "granitecimber" and "andanother" for the very reason that they deliberately instigated and escalated something that didn't need to.
Andanother starts his own thread to escalate. Andanother is just the mini fool who echoes his bigger fool GC. Austin power movie comes to mind.
Graniteclimber escalates in the very thread he deemed was not fit for that kind of discussion (airing out his dirty laundry) and then after seeing that I pointed this out, moved it to the other thread here ("congrats") and continued with what was actually meant to be kept off the forum. Why do you think people go to the PM route? He also blames it on the "idea" that PitonRon" baited him. Obviously trying to keep the true aim of his escalation and put the blame on others.
Andanother tries to instigate I post on the thread where the family is mourning. FOOL!
Yet both of these clowns remain anonymous in their exchanges both here and elsewhere, never revealing their true identities.
Deception and non credibility to the max.
This whole matter has nothing to do with Emily's tragic fate on Half Dome, but all to do with two very immature and foolish people stirring up unnecessary sh'it.
End of rant. I'm done with these 2 ass'holes.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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again, WAY too much typing. Just copy and paste this into any further responses:
"I missed the point, but I really want to respond anyway".
or this:
"I don't know what is going on here, but I need to have the last word"
These say the exact same thing as the rest of your posts, but will save you a bunch of time. you're clueless, and I think it's funny! Keep babbling....
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 24, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Young giving lady tragically falls to her death; the rest is just water under the bridge.rg
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 24, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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Maybe your mistake was attributing "hero" status in the first place? People are people - if you give someone that status, you'll only be disappointed when the cape comes off.
This is really not that big of a deal. Ron's post was nothing many weren't already thinking. They just didn't say it. Some of the response posts continued to follow suit. None of you are playing by the Bambi "if you can't say something nice" rule. What's the Bible adage? Don't point out someone's sliver when you have a stake in your own eye? Something like that.
I once saw a tv show about a kid who went to college and resolved not to speak the first year to see what he could learn. He learned that we only speak to make an impression of ourselves on others. What impression is your intent when posting?
What is mine? I'm just bored.
I can't believe anyone is shocked that there'd be a death on the cables. Like eKat said - man, that place is gnarly. I cannot believe normal people go up and down that every day.
An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation. I've topped out on Snake Dike and had tourists begging to buy my water off me. That's a little odd. As Ron said, I'd think Angel's Landing is of the same genre. My second trip up that saw snow along the way, and rain. I skipped on past a woman nearly crying and gripping onto the guide chains. "How do you do that?" she plaintively asked. "Well, it's been an acclimitization process - it's not as scary and uncertain to me." But she's right there doing it, too. What is she doing there? What am I doing there?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 24, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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"An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation."
I've been wondering that for a long time too. Why not make it a real via ferrata instead of a "maybe it'll help, maybe it won't" system? I'm all for personal accountability, but it just strains credulity that a half-assed rig like this would be permitted on NPS territory, especially considering the traffic it sees.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
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Werner can express himself as he pleases on any such topic as far as I'm concerned. If anything, I'd like to hear far more in-depth and brutally honest discourse from him relative to the insights and opinions he must have after so much experience with all the ways we can fail on stone.
Ron too has also been around long enough and seen enough to warrant his opinions. And he's earned that right climbing in places where a rescue isn't necessarily a few minutes away...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:46pm PT
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"An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation."
I've been wondering that for a long time too. Why not make it a real via ferrata instead of a "maybe it'll help, maybe it won't" system? I'm all for personal accountability, but it just strains credulity that a half-assed rig like this would be permitted on NPS territory, especially considering the traffic it sees.
I'd agree, it seems a mircale accidents like this aren't a weekly occurance on the current setup. If there were going to be a major via ferrata in the U.S. than this would seem to be THE poster child begging for such a treatment. The issue there is it would require a concession for training and rentals. But it would seem they need to either do that or just chisel steps up the thing. What are the traffic and accident stats on the existing rig?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
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Wow!
andanother tempest in a teapot.
Once again I regret if my discussion of a pertinent topic intruded on their grief if indeed as the OP suggests it did.
Seems more like a couple of whiners need to feel better about themselves. Can't see why GC is bent out of shape for disclosing a (cavalier) email when he hides behind a nom de plume.
Yeah. I signed onto rc.com as Dangle to smoke out a deceitful poster with a vested interest...
Why does that seem so familiar?
So who are these pilots who are pleased to have you volunteer them GC?
If you had a pair you would have bothered to invite me to debate the issues.
You guys want to come out from the curtain yourselves, or just remain pusillanimous poseurs?
Well?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Graniteclimber
Why should I make up my own nonsense about evolution or God/religion? I'll just copy paste since the snippets are already presented perfectly. But that is beside the point. Id don't remember anywhere ever you being on "my so called sh#t list". I don't have a sh#t list. And it's a useless list to have if people make one.
I don't have one and don't even remember or recall your reference to the evolution thread or whatever.
You have presented your defense in a very acceptable manner that requires me to apologise to you for my rant/outburst against you. Not because I'm trying to save face. I have an egg in the face now.
As for cutting me slack or respecting me because I'm on YOSAR or I'm a so called big name guy should not be a factor that you need to consider. I truly believe I'm not above anyone here. We are all human, and subjected to making mistakes.
I sincerely apologize to you granitclimber for my posts that made you feel very uncomfortable and hurt.
Werner
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Cross posted.
Thanks Joe.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Nov 24, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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drop it guys. Youre making the situation worse by starting this thread. Ron apologized. Accept it and move on.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 24, 2006 - 09:12pm PT
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You know what's funny, Lois?
The first time I summited Half Dome, we had to do it early because trail crews were working on reconditioning the approach. See, you get onto this saddle that's easy enough, and then you trudge up some in-cut steps on a second "rock saddle." I remember the big joke with my compatriots was how "natural" the experience was. Then you get to the real business of the climb, which is the cables. There's a big hole in the rock with piles and piles of gloves to help you get up and down, even (supplied by the hikers, not NPS). Why they didn't just take it one step further and make little stair cuts for Half Dome itself is beyond me. And guard rails. They ought to have guard rails on the lip.
I always thought it would be fun on a really popular day to get out a light trad rack and my rock shoes and simul up that crack on the side of it to freakout the gapers. :)
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 24, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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"Concerning the type of trail enhancements you mention, I have been on many such trails where the NP cut in steps, put up metal rails and other such accouterments to assist hikers to get one or another place. I have benefitted from these "adaptations" and I was glad they were there because otherwise I could not have gotten to many of these places."
Ahh, so have I. My point is - the weird part about the half dome trail is that they DID cut steps up, until you get to the serious part. Then it's just wood slats and elevated chains.
"My point is whether folks are being mislead into thinking that this particular hike is just an ordinary NP hike which might be classed "strenuous" but nothing more remarkable. I can't help but wonder if Ms Sandal simply thought she was taking a "strenuous" but otherwise ordinary hike."
She might have, but when you get there, there's no trickery. This is not a strenuous hike. It's a fifth class walk up the side of a rock dome. If the people who make it out thirteen miles can't figure out that the last couple hundred feet are more than "strenuous" then we really have a population IQ problem at that stage. I suspect she just took a calculated risk, as we all do. Like I keep saying, the cable route scares ME, I have NO idea how normal people do it. And why there are not more dead. It's fairly common place to hear about someone getting swept up in the falls, but no falls from Glacier or Half Dome really boggle me.
eKat's story strikes me as the perfect example. I was once coming down the mist trail (on the approach to Half Dome) with a full pack after a three-day excursion. You basically walk along the side of the falls and there's a railing there to keep you from peeling off the side. Well, when you go down hill, the angle really doesn't keep you from pitching off. I have notoriously bad knee joints and after a multi-day trip, they were really unstable and they gave out at the top. I slipped and grabbed the rail as I slid under it, uttering an obscenity that floated down to all the little Outdoor Ed kiddies' ears. Nearly el-gone-o. I shrugged it off at the time, but it's probably the most near-death I have ever come.
I just find it so odd that stuff like that doesn't happen more.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:56am PT
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This is what I posted on that thread:
Firstly, condolences to the young lady’s family and friends.
Secondly, I agree, deleting threads is lame. If you have written something that in hindsight perhaps you shouldn’t have or regret, there are other ways of dealing with it. When you delete a thread that other posters are referring to, it can be, confusing, for better lack of a term, to see what people are talking about.
There have been several times, especially when I first came on this forum, that I have regretted writing something (for example, castigating posters who like guns and starting a small flame war until I backed off, but I didn’t delete) but I don’t mind wearing egg on my face, as I am only human and as such, prone to mistakes.
Thirdly, I didn’t take Ron’s post to be callous or insensitive, just inquisitive. Was in appropriate on a thread like this one? I won’t judge that, if some of you want to that’s your choice.
I really can't see why Andother and Graniteclimber want to persist in continuing this topic.
I suggest you drop it guys and focus your energies on more positive topics and activites, such as climbing.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 25, 2006 - 12:03pm PT
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Werner,
Thank you for your very gracious apology. Now I'm left standing alone with egg on my face for my oubursts/rants to you earlier in this thread. I sincerely apologize for them.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
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If one steps back a bit what you see is that extremely capable and fair-minded people have been very distressed by the loss we all have suffered. A terrible loss.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 25, 2006 - 04:04pm PT
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Werner,
Can you use some other epithet, I would hate to have to sue you for Trademark infringement on "fool"...
What a bunch of pud thumping. Really pathetic. Posting people's real names is also toeing the line legally speaking.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 25, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Hey, LEB, have you gone climbing yet?
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:36pm PT
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Leb wrote: "Hi JL,
Not yet. I still find the passage you wrote very poignant. Good job! Talented man."
Leb, you're ducking the question with flattery. Don't think I'm going to let a passive part of your personality talk your way out of this. It ain't gonna happen. Should I round up a partner for you? A guide? What will it take for you to change your mind, or is this a control thing??
JL
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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Lois:
John and everyone else has kept a big secret away from you. What the best part of climbing? It is to be there, sitting on a ledge, on a cool spring or fall morning as the sun comes around and makes everything warm. To be there feeling the breeze on you face as you bump your heels against the rock to relieve the pressure on your toes. In the current vernacular, that is the best send of all. Of all the sends, that is the one you will remember.
Cheers,
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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Leb wrote:
Hi JL
Here is what it would take
1. A new body - one with less (much less!) arthritis and much less tolls of aging.
2. A new personality - one which actually likes risk taking
3. (Most importantly) A new set of values - one which puts climbing above the things which I currently value and pursue
4. Inability to find joy and fulfillment via my current lifestyle (which is certainly not the case)
5. Reordering of priorities to pursue different goals then I currently have currently identified
--
You're overthinking this, and also, you seem to have a picture in your mind of what climbing has to be, whereas what I'm suggesting A), has no risks, B), requies no bigtime physical exertion, C), does not require a reshuffling of your values, D), is so piddling an expedition that the words "goal" and "priorities" are not applicable.
I'm talking about doing a little walk up a 60 degree slab with a top rope and a qualified guide like Karl B. Just to get a feel for the work without having to change at all, or make any substantial effort and all that jazz.
What would it take for you to entertain the idea? Not actually do it--we'll get to that part later. Just to entertain the idea.
JL
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 26, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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LEB, I find your list of things you'd require to tie into a top rope nothing short of ignorant. Do you avoid new experiences because you are satisfied with your existence?
If you had responded that you have no interest in partaking, but you enjoy the anthropology you find here, fine. But don't make the mistake of putting labels on something you have no prior experience with. ::twitch twitch::
/an arthritic, non-risk-loving female
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 02:09pm PT
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John:
I think we are out of luck.
John
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Nov 26, 2006 - 04:04pm PT
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Lois, i started climbing at 41. My body has been battered from snowboarding, skiing, biking,skateboarding and a bad rotator cuff from playing softball. Just recently, i took a friend of mine climbing. She's in her late thirties with rheumatoid arthritis. Her hands are a mess. But, she made if up a fun 5.6 climb and gave a good college try on a few harder grades. We had a few giggles and an all around fantastic time. I know i'm not going to convince you to try climbing, but you can't use excuses such as age and arthritis.
I agree with jstan, my favorite clmbing moments are the long walks to the wall, feeling the spring breeze on my face, and enjoying the moment with my climbing partners..............and of course the cold beer and chicken wing feeds
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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You cannot be serious?!
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:10pm PT
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http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/rock-climbing.htm
Here ya go. You are beyond annoying asking this question considering how long you've been on here and the time people have spent trying to explain climbing to you. From your silly posts above, you won't even consider trying it, so you continue to engage in discussions that you know very little about. How inconsiderate can you get? Stay on your a$$ and do some reading.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:11pm PT
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They're too busy walking to the cliffs on their hands.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:16pm PT
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Ahh, I think you got it backwards...
And for the record, Everest is a hike.
The gray area in between is called scrambling.
There is no arbitrary angle to differentiate between the two. Some of the scariest climbing I've done was on dirt, and I've hiked plenty of rock grades.
You have this whole thing worked up in your mind as much more than it really is. The angle is not a hard and fast determining factor of difficulty. I can name dozens of low angle climbs that are harder than overhanging ones.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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I'll stop hammering you if you'll stop blathering. Did you miss what ECF wrote above? That was about right.
You spend an inordinate amount of time on this forum considering you're not a climber, but you've obviously done no homework to learn more about it. You'd rather be lazy and ask these stupid questions of the very people who've been very patient with you. Haven't several climbing books been recommended to you over the last year? You don't even have the courtesy to read them prior to asking these questions.
If you think as a non-climber you're going to start an intellectual exchange about the nuances of rock angle and what separates 4th class from 5th, you're dreaming.
Edit: Okay, maybe knott.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:32pm PT
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Yeah, I hunt and peck, so I try to keep it brief.
My point was that Everest is considered by the layman as "the ultimate climb", but if you are using your hands it is because you are on your knees puking.
Hikers consider scrambling as "extreme" and climbers see it as "light duty".
In search of a good definition for you, if you drop a bean bag at your feet on a climb it will fall to the base, if you're on a hike, it may roll a bit, but won't go all that far.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:34pm PT
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LEB: I don't want to contribute to thread drift, or the Half Dome debate.
Whether or not something is climbing is not solely determined by the angle of the environment. Horizontal terrain almost never implies climbing - though I've seen photos of people in the Antarctic using ice axes to secure themselves when walking. In 200 kph winds.
Something vertical almost certainly implies climbing - although the via ferratas in Europe can in essence be sidewalks on vertical walls.
Somewhere in between is where climbing starts. To my mind, it is probably climbing if:
a) most people need to use both hands and feet to progress,
b) most people use some technical skill and equipment to progress and secure themselves, and
c) an unsecured person, if that person fell, is likely to fall a significant distance, and be injured or killed.
There aren't many climbs that are less than 30 degrees. Beyond that there's no hard and fast rule - shades of grey. Where does hiking become scrambling (unroped, moderate climbing), or scrambling become climbing? Many people die each year because they misjudge these things, and the implied risk.
I hiked up Half Dome for the first time on a Saturday in late September this year. The cables were a full on clusterf***. I was surprised to hear that they rescue more people on the Half Dome trail due to over exertion, even heart attacks, than they do people who fall off. No doubt many get dragged up by inertia and group dynamics - but the risks are very clear to anyone who thinks for even a moment.
Edit: I do consider bouldering to be part of climbing, though it doesn't quite fit the rough definition above.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:46pm PT
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Note it is a "climbing forum" and not a "climbers who know everything, already" forum.
Oh, I got a good chuckle out of that one...
I in no means mean to scare you off, but you do realize that a good number of the people on this forum are the elite of the climbing world. Sure there are lots of new guys, but the big guns of the sport are here, not at RC.com.
And I have to add that age is no excuse for not trying climbing. I have a few Fred Beckey stories that you just wouldn't believe, and he is older than my Grandfather.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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'Note it is a "climbing forum" and not a "climbers who know everything, already" forum.'
I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. There may be one or two SuperTopians who think they know everything, anyway.
Though there is an enormous amount of collective knowledge, perhaps even wisdom, on ST. Not just about climbing, either.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:57pm PT
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Mighty Hiker Said...
Somewhere in between is where climbing starts. To my mind, it is probably climbing if:
a) most people need to use both hands and feet to progress,
b) most people use some technical skill and equipment to progress and secure themselves, and
c) an unsecured person, if that person fell, is likely to fall a significant distance, and be injured or killed.
Pretty good, but then we need to include Canyoneering as Climbing!
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 26, 2006 - 05:57pm PT
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How's it go?
People who think they know everything annoy the heck out of those of us that do...
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:04pm PT
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ECF/Anders, thanks for providing Lois with those straightforward descriptions.
Of course, this is a huge resource for learning. I haven't seen too many postings where everyone didn't join in to share their knowledge regardless of the experience levels.
Lois, if I wasn't familiar with your other postings on this forum, I would never have criticized your questions.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:17pm PT
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LEB:
My sense of this is that what we are looking at is a massive case of projection. You've identified youself as a certain kind of person with these values and things you cherish and so forth. The problem is with all of these identifications, you also have (we all have) opposite qualitires of equal power, but which are totally unconscious andwhich you project onto the folks on this site, letting them play out your shadow side at no risk to you. No harm in that, save that the longer you stay captive to your identified personality, the less edge your life will have and eventually you'll get fossilized in a comfort zone about two square inches wide--comforatable, but frozen in your comfort.
This is a climbing site and as such you'll always get challenged. There's hardly a thread I respond to here to which I don't get blasted, ridiculed, written off as a wanker and a poser. I expect nothing less. And I also listen to what folks have to say to keep my self-bullshit detector properly calibrated. Folks are basically calling bullshit on all your pat answers and excuses. In short, it's time to quit trying to mentalize all of this by quantifying angles and the use of hands and feet (so you can say you've alredy gone climbing and don't have to now).
Like they say, the best exercise for self mastery is to do something "you" don't want to do. Time to take back your projections, LEB. Enough of all this jibber jabber. Tie in and get on with it.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:19pm PT
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Largo said: "Like they say, the best exercise for self mastery is to do something "you" don't want to do."
Ok, I will now get a gun and kill you ...... he he
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:19pm PT
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LEB, you're absolutely right about not bothering to read some posts. Same goes for contributing to a bad thread. I was actually reading what Largo wrote when I noticed your question and I suddenly felt compelled to chime in.
The focus was really on why you refuse to go climbing, even at a gym.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:29pm PT
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Oh, give it up, Lois is not the type, never will be in this lifetime. Some people are happy not being climbers.
Anything wrong with that?
Next life I'm not going to climb, I'll come back here and terrorize all you people .......
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:35pm PT
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LOL! WB, you are a big tease. First, you say how you're gonna spill your beans about the bolt chopping and now how you're gonna come back and plague us in the next life. Perhaps not so benevolent afterall, eh?
Nothing wrong with Lois not climbing. It's just something about that voyeuristic thing and armchair living.
Edit: Werner, are you the punk ass fool of tomorrow or the futuristic utility dolt?
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:46pm PT
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LEB, Obviously I don't know you from reading these posts, but this is my empression.
You are older than me, you are loving life and you have done your fare share of wilderness exploration but you don't consider yourself a climber.
I wonder if your like a friend of mine. He grew up exploring the desert in and around Zion and knows it very well. He's done all the harder and most of the easy canyons in zion and many others in the southwest. When I met him he was not a climber, in his mind, but I knew better! He could get around the desert as good as anyone! Up, down around, through! He even carries ropes (for rappeling, not protecting a leader). In my opinion he's more climber than someone who only clips bolts. I'm teaching him to place gear and a few other climbing specific things but beyond that, exploring his suroundings in the manner he saw fit is what tought him to climb. He's following me with ease up 5.10 and 5.11 FA's and feeling right at home.
Am I even close?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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Well, it's a climbing forum but we always don't talk about climbing do we? I haven't read this thread but I noticed there are a lot of posts so I figured it couldn't just be about congratulating someone. That would be too positive for a lot of posts.
Could we talk about surfing instead? I hear it's harder than climbing. Can you do it in a lake or do you need the ocean? How do you stay up with that board just bobbing around?
Folks like to talk about sex a lot. I've never had it cause I'm a geek and I hear it's messy but some say that it's super fun. What's an orgasm feel like? I heard that your muscles get all contracted and then relaxed and you make noises like you're climbing?
I suppose I could try it but I'd rather listen to folks argue about it.
;-)
Karl
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 26, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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Underwater basket weaving, now that is the shizzle...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 08:03pm PT
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Yeah, I guess there are guys surfing the great lakes too and you can surf the wake of a supertanker for miles without end.
I just realized (still without reading the whole thread) that I was mentioned up higher.
I'd take Lois climbing for free if Largo comes along! That would make for a nice illustrated trip report (that Ouch could help us with)
I'm absolutely positive we'd get along great because in dozens of years climbing, I've never failed to get along with anyone. We're all humans at the root of it and almost nobody intends harm or malice. That said, I'm extra hard on Lois cause she has the knowledge and awareness to do better than she does and God has personally appointed me as a helper in her process.
It's Karma baby. You spend all this time on a climbing forum. Go take a one day class or get guided close to home. Learn what it's like to go from speculation to direct knowledge. It would be virtually risk free and taylored to your capability and would make for a great posting. DO IT!
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 08:51pm PT
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Kevin's got a hook in his mouth!
Oh the humanity!
Been there, done that.
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
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Heheheh
Yep Karl you're right Warbler got hooked mighty, and he swallowed that hook I think.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 26, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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I'd say you'd be amazed at the amount of goading that goes on between climbing partners, except that I think that it goes on between friends and associates in virtually every field of human endeavor. So, probably that supriseing, all in all.
I have climbed El Cap several times with hard core republicans, good friends all, we never came close to coming to blows.
I'm betting, Lois, if you were on a surgical team with someone you had diferences with, you would concentrate on the job at hand, and not let the minor stuff get in the way of the real sh#t.
Troll, schmoll.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 09:10pm PT
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Others might disagree but I do believe you are innocent of intentionally trolling us Lois.
That's what makes you so diabolically good at it. You've read climbing books and read this forum for so long, yet you don't the the most basic elements are what we are talking about and poor Kevin had to take time from his life to post this most elemental info and you probably won't remember it a bit tomorrow.
Jesus, it's as if I were posting to a forum of doctors and nurses and some famous cardiac surgeon had to spend 20 minutes explaining to me in writing that the hospital had different wards for different purposes and problems and that different doctors had specialties.
When he sees that you won't learn, then he'll learn,
Peace
Karl
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Nov 26, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
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I think karl and LEB are both trolling us.
I think they're really lovers who use this forum as a way to comunicate their differances and they're dragging us into their sick games!
Trolls!!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 26, 2006 - 09:43pm PT
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On a wall everybody is the patient.
I shouldn't say anything, but, I'm pretty sure I saw Lois and Karl making out on the Bedayn bench the other day, early afternoon snowmelt cascading down off Columbia on either side of them, but don't tell till anyone, until they're ready to share with us.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 26, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
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"I copied it to a convenient place (my Palm), it will NOW be handy and convenient when I need to reference it to better interpret someone's post."
Oh, hee hee hee.
Lois leaves her palm laying about somewhere on that particular batch of information. Colleague picks it up.
"What is this class crap about?"
"Well, you see, I like to engage in discourse with these rock climbingers on thier online climbing forum."
"Oh, you climb?"
"No, I'm rather quite comfortable with my life at the moment. I just like to get inside their heads."
"Ahh. And this relates to classes how?"
"Oh, this is how they rate rock climbs. I keep it handy so that when I read what I write, I can properly interpret it."
"Hmm. And you don't climb?"
"No. They are just interesting people."
I get that Lois is real, she's proven it enough to me, and she's pretty intuitive, though often takes her intuitions in the wrong direction, but this is starting to defy logic. You better be writing a book.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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I thought LEB == Karl? Or was that on another thread?
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 26, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
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Hmm, that's a baited hook itself.
Pass.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 10:43pm PT
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For shizzle, Batman.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
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I think you miss the point Lois. People are spending their valuable time explaining something to you that you're hardly interested in, have had explained to you before, and should have learned already from the books you claimed to have read.
If you are going to spend time writing and asking about climbing, at least have the respect to learn the first damn thing about it first before asking others to write a book personalized for you with the very basics that are covering quickly and efficiently in books like the ones John Long has written. You even know him, they're cheap, don't you get it? Learn something or forget it, but respect the time of others.
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:31am PT
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I think Pete is laughing.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:39am PT
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Ron, that's just the voices.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Well Lois, if the forum is so free, you can say what you will and I'll say what I will and other's can act on our advice or flame us for it. Fair enough.
I was just taking it upon myself to warn new and well intentioned forum posters to beware of the waste of time that typing at you can be. Maybe I'm burnt out and cynical but I treat very, very few people this way online. You earned it.
How did you earn it. Here's a couple of old classic examples
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=81864
and
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=79639
Bye now
Karl
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Aya
Uncategorizable climber
New York
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:08am PT
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Can't someone just teach Lois how to google?
That way, she gets all the info she wants, while nobody here gets irritated with her ceaseless questions about the most basic aspects of climbing.
For example, re: grading, google ("climbing rating systems") yielded dozens of sites replicating the condensed information Lois was so happy to receive and copied to her desktop.
http://www.climber.org/data/decimal.html
http://www.safeclimbing.org/about_overview.htm
http://www.climb-utah.com/ratings.htm
http://climbing.about.com/od/gettingstarted/a/YDS.htm
http://www.spadout.com/wiki/index.php/Climbing_Grades
and since the subject has been touched on, V-grades for bouldering
http://climbing.about.com/od/gettingstarted/a/vscale.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering);
http://www.mountaintimes.com/summer/climbing4.php3
As for the rest of the needing testosterone to climb, only trying it to make my husband happy stuff, I wouldn't even know where to begin to start. Luckily for me, I don't care, so I don't need to.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:16am PT
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Actually, I find that when Lois knows what she's talking about, that she contributes well.
I'm under your skin now eh Lois? Like one of those dermatophytes in a toe fungus commercial! Ah, vengence is mine sayeth the Baba.
Did anyone catch this little exchange from the "execute Bush and Cheney" Thread?
Lois puts words in Karl's mouth so Karl restates some facts and then adds
"... Oh wait, I just stated some facts and specifics. Your eyes have undoubtedly glossed over by now and I could call you a stupid bitch and you might not notice. Should I dare? Naw. I'm just upset much along the same lines as you might be if I posted something like
Lois, you keep stating that Bush is a fine president who merely got bad advice and you seem be calling for a third term. Don't you know that's against the law?
That's how close to restating my position you are.
to which Lois replys
"Now, Karl, get this. I do NOT think Bush is a good president. I think he is a failure as a president. Have you been reading any of my posts? I would recommend that you reread them - carefully - and then come back and "tell" me what I said and/or believe.
Karl, one more thing. I passed 7th grade social studies. I already *know* about term limits. This past election was effectively a referendum on the President. It was as much about a generalized vote of no confidence in Bush then it was anything else. Whether you like Bush, hate Bush or stand somewhere in-between, Tues election was a splendid testament to the ability of the American people to speak up and speak out ...and effect change. *That* was a beautiful thing to witness.
edited in - Karl, I just reread your post - apparently I read it too quickly the first time. I do now get your point - you may negate the preceeding two paragraphs but I still say we would kill one another if left alone in the same room."
That's from
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=278574&msg=279263#msg279263
Yuk yuk
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:48am PT
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Memory is foggy, but I CAN google!
"In a parody of the "Point-Counterpoint" segment of the news program 60 Minutes, Curtin portrayed a controlled "liberal", Politically Correct viewpoint vs. Dan Aykroyd, who prototyped today's right-wing media "attack" journalist. (Curtin would always present the liberal "Point" portion first, then Aykroyd would present the "Counterpoint" portion, beginning with the statement, "Jane, you ignorant slut!")"
Peace
Karl
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v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:01am PT
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This thread has my vote for most retarded I have ever read on supertopo...
S.Powers
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v10gripper
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:01am PT
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This thread has my vote for most retarded I have ever read on supertopo...
S.Powers
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:21am PT
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This isn't the 2000 election. You can't vote twice
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 08:38am PT
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Oh, crap. I agree with Riley the narc...
Lois, maybe you don't realize it, but your comments on "dropping the rope" are unbelieveably offensive to climbers. It is a sacred trust, someones life in your hands. Friends may joke about it, but any court would call it murder.
I have climbed with people I wanted to maim with an ice axe, or push off the top, but giving a faulty belay is major taboo.
I once did a wall with a guy who turned out to be hard core KKK, and an alcoholic. I wouldn't even tap the brakes if I saw him crossing the street, but I held his rope until I tossed it into the back of his truck.
I did not realize that what Warbler wrote was new info to you. Not to be insulting, but that is the most basic piece of info in all of climbing. Before that was a hairy guy pointing at a cliff, grunting "Ugh, rok."
Come up to NH next spring and I'll get you up Whitehorse ledge. All it'll cost is gas and shoe rental if my buddy doesn't have your size.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 27, 2006 - 10:38am PT
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Lois? When was the last time you did something for the first time?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 27, 2006 - 10:57am PT
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Lois is a Kodosian sock puppet. I'd swear he writes half her stuff, or at least advises her.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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Congrats to Granite and the fool who started this thread. Neither of you have the remotest clue as to search and resuce, the dangers involved etc. Helicopters are insanely dangerous, just turning the damn things on and getting them up in the air is a major risk to all those involved. I loved the comment about "long lining" a body is no real risk.
You're both a couple of no talent ass masters. I have a feeling that Werner knows just a tad more about this subject than either of you two idiots.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:38pm PT
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So, LEB, when are you going climbing?? Just leave off with all that jibber jabber and get on with it.
JL
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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As usual, Gary bats it out of the park...
Lois, just answer the question. Then take Mr. Long up on his offer. It will be a day you'll cherish the rest of your life.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
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LEB--
Have you rented your boots yet? Have you and Karl decided on a date? Time to reel those projections back in, cast off and come what may, Sweet Pea.
JL
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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Make an effort to read what people write.
I never said lack of knowledge was offensive. What I took umbrage with was the 'drop the rope' scenario.
And I expressed incredulity to the response to Kevin's grade description. That could have been C&P-ed from a dozen different places.
The biggest thing anybody ever got out of climbing is exactly what you seem to be avoiding and rationalizing away: doing something you didn't think you could, and gaining tremendous advances in self-realization through the experience.
I have been trying to offer insight that YOU have asked for, I'm not here looking for people to explain stuff to, but on the merit of percieved sincerity, I have tried to explain it to you.
But the bottom line is "No one can be told what the matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."
You want a good book for setting the foundation for what is so great about climbing, I'd recommend "Scrambles amongst the Alps" by Ed Whymper. It is more than a hundred years old, but is still one of the best reads in the whole genre. It's about drive, goals, exploration and the unknown. With a healthy dose of human comedy thrown in to balance the whole experience. The cheese smoking scene is a timeless classic. And the Mutton leg... Man, I should read that again!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
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LEB wrote: "A lot of folks around here are the indignation/shocked sort of person who huff and puff (endlessly!) about how things "ought be" or else how they "should be."
Correct, and you SHOULD get out there, tie in and cast off.
You'll get no different treatment from anyone here, and neither do I. Just as it SHOULD be.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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Listen to the man Lois. What other new and exciting experiences do you have lined up for yourself? If Gary is right, then why not follow up?
But why don't we start a "Bug Lois to climb" thread with some Ouch cartoons. Others have noted that this is a wacky slander thread that might be better left to die.
I'm not posting here again. (unless I'm well trolled)
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
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I don't agree with any of this LEB bashing, big grown men picking on a woman. Just feels weird to me.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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You forget a lot of us here know each other in real life.
I tried with you, but you want to say I am huffing and puffing, well you can blow me.
You are firmly in the "to be ignored" catagory now.
edit-
Werner, the world has gone equal opportunity while you've been in the ditch. It is considered sexist now to cut them any slack. No quarter is a sign of respect. I actually had a woman bitch at me for opening the door for her.
We are deep in the Kali Yuga now my friend...
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
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Don't you even get the pun?
Huff, puff, blow...
Bueler... Bueler...
I'm used to my humor going over people's heads, but usually it drags it's toes across their foreheads...
Ladiesmen? You couldn't be more wrong. We are a bunch of geeks that couldn't get laid in a whorehouse.
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mark_s
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:13pm PT
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nice to see this thread ia already highjacked.
andanother, granite climber...you two are fukholes. YOUR thread is something that will and probally has upset her family and friends.
ROck climbing is dangerous, read ANY gear you buy.
its sad she is dead, but sooner or later were all going to die.
She's Free.
And you should have let her go in peace instead of creating this forum for people to read for now and forever. wouldn't it have been better to create something positive on the net for people to read you jackoff's
aloha.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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I'm married.
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Ouch!
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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My early years as a notorious usenet troll taught me a lesson. Boredom is fertile ground for creating an uproar. People are not as likely to respond to a baiting if they have something more interesting to do.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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elcap fool
Hahaha, deep in the Kali Yuga now my friend...
Yes I agree. But she grew up before this so called sexist crap whatever that is, most likely feminism bullsh#t.
Lois is elderly and I believe she warrants a greater respect.
When I was very young my father instilled into me vehemently to respect our elders.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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JL,
What was it the man said?..... he said: "don't should on me." Seems to me that you are doing a bit of "shoulding" there and it also seems that it is "on me."
I'm absolutely doing that, LEB, since you won't do it for yourself. I won' give up you, LEB. And don't forget, this is not a charity or feel-good kind of site, rather a gathering of adventurers who often work against their own tendencnes toward complacancy, breaking outside of their comfort zone because that's where the unknown lurks a d the voltage lies. Remember, it's always a hard task to take back our projections, but we're all rooting for you till you either go climbing, or snap.
So have you rented your boots yet?
JL
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:27pm PT
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Not proud or particularly ashamed of the fact that I was celebate for almost ten years before I met my wife.
Sex ain't nothing compared to climbing.
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Ouch!
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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"Lois is elderly and I believe she warrants a greater respect. "
ROTFLMAO! Now that is the best troll shot in the whole thread.
Good go! Werner.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:33pm PT
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It is a mark of art to slap somebody with respect.
edit-
Yeah, you have to find something to talk about over coffee, and it helps if you actually know the other person. Because once you are married, it definately isn't about the sex.
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Nov 27, 2006 - 04:51pm PT
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Lois swallows?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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Maybe this will help;
My initial impression was that Lois was about 20+ yrs older than it now appears she is, I think it's her writing style combined with an east coast syntaxual mojo.
My conclusion, she 'speaks' older than she is. Not more mature just older, like someone her age from an earlier era. Not perjorative, she is just different.
er, Hi, Lois!
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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Let's vote to delete this thread!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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Until then I'm showing my respect to the original intent by pushing the drift.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 05:56pm PT
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Huh?
Edit: I think I got it Jaybro.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 06:00pm PT
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I concur with Mimi - Delete this thread! What a load of bollocks.
While we're at it, ban LEB from further posts.
In the meantime, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! That would solve a lot.
Bill
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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It would totally solve the problem but people just can't restrain themselves. I hereby promise to almost never support a troll again.
And it wouldn't be cool to ban LEB. We all have to support freedom of the net. We can threaten to visit her and take her climbing though if she persists in annoying us.
EDIT: I'm out on this thread. You little turd, andanother, I'm asking to please delete this thread.
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oldfart
climber
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Nov 27, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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Dirtineye: "Lois is a Kodosian sock puppet. I'd swear he writes half her stuff, or at least advises her."
Hey, yeah, on that note, how's the lawsuit going?
Or was that all just the booze talking?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 27, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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Piton Ron Olevsky is a real person with a real identity, who has the courage to stand behind the words he writes.
People like you lot who are nameless, faceless and dickless cowards who hide behind fake- or non-identities have no credibility whatsoever, and should simply be ignored.
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| Messages 1 - 110 of total 110 in this topic |
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