When Is Chalk Worse Than No Chalk?

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TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 20, 2006 - 07:45pm PT

http://www.sportex.bham.ac.uk/staff/lifx_files/Coeff%20friction%20climbing%20JSS%202001.pdf

The authors measured the coefficient of friction of wet hands, clean dry hands, dry hands coated with chalk, etc. They found that dry hands or wet hands were better than hands with chalk.

This article is cited frequently enough on the web. Does anyone know of any more recent or contradictory research on the topic? Or is there a second set of experiments that confirmed the results of the first?

Research aside, your experience might seem different. If so, consider the following:

My experience (shale or Gunks conglomerate) is that using chalk on your hands on rock with water running on it is way worse than no chalk. You might as well put on a nice gel of toothpaste. Hopefully this is obvious, but if it is not, try it sometime.

So, if really wet chalk is worse than no chalk, and you think at some point chalked hands are better, then there must be a point at which the moisture mixed with the chalk is no different. Any less moisture and chalk is better, more chalk is worse.

Of course, the authors used subjects who were not aware of the thesis - to avoid any bias due to differential behavior on the subjects part.

How would you test the thesis that chalk has an effect on hand-rock friction coefficient?

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2006 - 08:12pm PT

Thanks, DMT. The location sounds sweet.

Now how do you plan to actually make physical measurements?

Differentiate between guys that can climb cracks, and face guys (like me) with marginal technique?

Obviously you can't just take two groups, one with, one without.

Should also be obvious that you can't try with, then without on the same climber, while actually climbing and just determine whether they climbed the problem, because of a learning bias.

You are probably like me. Stick hand in bag when things get sweaty. Send problem. Confirm hypothesis. Bad science.

I always carry my chalk bag with me. (It has knife and those little rope climbing things in it - never used.) Many days I laugh when I get back to the car and notice that the drawstring is still pulled closed.

I have a problem. LOL

WBraun

climber

Nov 20, 2006 - 08:19pm PT

Huh?

All I can say is "good grief" ......

jstan

climber

Nov 20, 2006 - 08:41pm PT

Sometime during the last century I took data on frictional force between Gunks rock and both chalked and unchalked hands. I also studied the effect produced by a thick layer of resident chalk residue on the rock.

To do it I suspended the piece of rock as in a pendulum with a spring scale so I could read the Normal Force. Then I had another spring scale to resist motion of the rock as I drew my open hand across the rock. I can't remember whether I fussed around with water. As I remember the article in the ET there were graphs and such. If you know someone with all the copies that is probably the easiest way to get the data, if you are interested. Alternatively, given a mailing address I could go down to Kinkos and xerox the article for you.

Cheers,

kuan

Sport climber

Nov 21, 2006 - 12:34am PT

On a purely aesthetic level, I'd rather see "No Chalk" than really obvious tick marks that map out every move. I try to wipe those away if I use them. In less crowded areas, where the rock is relatively chalk free, I try to swat away ANY chalk marks with a t-shirt before leaving.

Phil_B

Social climber

Hercules, CA

Nov 21, 2006 - 01:23am PT

My favorite chalk story:

We were at Joshua Tree and walking to our next climb. As we went past a blank wall, we saw a couple of guys throwing a tennis ball up onto it. After each throw, they'd dip it in chalk and then toss it again.

After we finished the climb, we walked back. The guys were gone, but there were some other guys looking at the "tick" marks on the wall and going, "Man, how did that guy get up there?"

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Nov 21, 2006 - 02:25am PT

When you have no toothbrush and need one.

"good grief" Werner=Charlie Brown.

"I will give up my chalkbag whet they pry it from my cold dead fingers."
-some guy, as reprinted in a best of Climing™

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Aug 3, 2007 - 01:40pm PT

Rock is ugly until it has chalk on it.....

aldude

climber

Monument Manor

Aug 3, 2007 - 01:49pm PT

....and a trail of freshly drilled bolts gleaming in the sun!

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Aug 3, 2007 - 01:55pm PT

...and the smell of 2-stroke gas burning...oh wait, wrong thread. Sorry, carry on.

G_Gnome

Sport climber

Everywhere, man...

Aug 3, 2007 - 02:00pm PT

I remember when that 'study' was first posted. It seemed like a flawed study at the time and it still does. Besides, climbing on sandstone I use chalk as a shield as much as I use it to keep my fingers dry. If anyone doubts chalks effectiveness, let's go bouldering, I guarantee that you will find chalk a requirement before the hour is out.

jstan

climber

Aug 3, 2007 - 02:26pm PT

GG:
Have you a link to the study you mention? Be interested to look at it.

G_Gnome

Sport climber

Everywhere, man...

Aug 3, 2007 - 02:39pm PT

John, I can't find the link to the original study but here is an excerpt and I think we decided that they didn't understand the forces applied while climbing and so the forces they applied in the study were not necessarily relevant.

"According to this, magnesium carbonate REDUCED the coefficient of friction in controlled studies. Abstract:

Magnesium carbonate, or `chalk', is used by rock climbers to dry their hands to increase the coefficient of friction, thereby improving the grip of the holds. To date, no scientific research supports this practice; indeed, some evidence suggests that magnesium carbonate could decrease the coefficient of friction. Fifteen participants were asked to apply a force with the tip of their fingers to hold a flattened rock (normal force), while a tangential force pulled the rock away. The coefficient of friction -- that is, the ratio between the tangential force (pulling the rock) and the normal force (applied by the participants) -- was calculated. Coating (chalk vs no chalk), dampness (water vs no water) and rock (sandstone, granite and slate) were manipulated. The results showed that chalk decreased the coefficient of friction. Sandstone was found to be less slippery than granite and slate. Finally, water had no significant effect on the coefficient of friction. The counter-intuitive effect of chalk appears to be caused by two independent factors. First, magnesium carbonate dries the skin, decreasing its compliance and hence reducing the coefficient of friction. Secondly, magnesium carbonate creates a slippery granular layer. We conclude that, to improve the coefficient of friction in rock climbing, an effort should be made to remove all particles of chalk; alternative methods for drying the fingers are preferable.

Use of `chalk' in rock climbing: sine qua non or myth?. F.-X. LI, S. MARGETTS and I. FOWLER.
Journal of Sports Sciences 19.6 (June 2001): p427

If you have electronic reference through your local library, you can access it online via thomson gale reference search.

Here's the intro from the article:

Introduction

Although climbing has been practised since pre-historic times (Frison-Roche and Jouty, 1996), only recently has it become very popular; there are over 4 million climbers in the United States alone (Mermier et al., 1997). The last 30 years has witnessed a boom in rock climbing, which is now a truly international sport. The essence of this sport is to lift the body against gravity to climb on rock faces or artificial structures using only bare feet and hands. To achieve this, climbers rely entirely on an efficient, coordinated contraction of muscles associated with fine balance and, of special interest here, friction of bare feet and hands on the support.

Various aspects of rock climbing have attracted the attention of sport scientists. These include the physiological (Hardy and Martindale, 1982; Billat et al., 1995) and anthropometric (Watts et al., 1997) characteristics of climbers, the energy (Rooks, 1997; Mermier et al., 1997; Booth et al., 1999) and attentional (e.g. Bourdin et al., 1998a) demands of the sport, the biomechanical (Quaine et al., 1997) and motor-control (e.g. Nougier et al., 1993; Bourdin et al., 1998 a,b, 1999) organization of the movements, and sport-specific injuries (Bollen and Gunson, 1990; Wyatt et al., 1996; Jebson and Seyers, 1997; Rooks, 1997). Surprisingly, the grip of the hand on the rock, an essential aspect of the sport and a focal point for climbers, has not received any attention.

Magnesium carbonate, known by climbers as `chalk', is traditionally carried in a bag attached to the climber's waist. Climbers dip their hands in it to cover the fingers and, in an attempt to remove any excess deposit, climbers blow on it. Chalk has been used for years by climbers in the belief that this will dry up sweat and improve grip on the holds. Indeed, chalk has been used unquestioningly in several scientific studies (e.g. Hardy and Martindale, 1982). Applying chalk to the fingers is widely perceived as a sine qua non for a good performance. However, to date, no scientific research supports this belief.

What is the effect on grip of applying magnesium carbonate to the surface of the hands? The elements of response can be found in mechanics, tribology and neuroscience. The problem of grip is a problem of the coefficient of friction ([Mu]). When a tangential force ([F.sub.t]) is exerted on a surface, it will tend to move in the direction of the force applied. To prevent this movement, a friction force normal to the surface ([F.sub.n]) can be applied. The ratio between tangential force and normal force defines the static coefficient of friction: [Mu] = [F.sub.t]/[F.sub.n]. The coefficient is roughly constant for any pair of surfaces. The coefficient of friction can be affected by the introduction of another substance between the two surfaces; this is the way lubrication works. For instance, a layer of oil is often used to reduce the coefficient of friction between two metallic surfaces. Conversely, removing any trace of grease or humidity can increase the coefficient of friction. This has been the basis for the rationale leading to the almost unchallenged use of chalk in climbing: dry skin grips better, chalk dries the skin, so by regular application of chalk one increases the coefficient of friction between the skin on the hands and the climbing surfaces. But is it that straightforward?

For solid surfaces, friction is proportional to the normal force applied and it is independent of the surface area. However, skin -- or the stratum corneum, the outermost layer of skin -- is a compliant material. It is about 10-15 [micro]m thick. It behaves more like an elastomer or thermoplastic than a solid body (Johnson et al., 1993). The properties of this biomaterial depend on many factors, including the percentage of water, pH and temperature. Interestingly, Johnson et al. (1993) showed that the addition of water increases the friction of dry skin. It would appear that the main effect of water is to increase the compliance of the surface asperities and hence the contact area. Frequent application of chalk may decrease the percentage of water in the skin and, therefore, decrease its compliance. Moreover, Wyatt et al. (1996) found that the splitting of the skin pads of the fingertips, a common injury among climbers, is due in part to the use of chalk and its desiccating effect. It appears that, at least from a tribological and medical point of view, the overuse of chalk can have the opposite effect to that intended.

Chalk is used to remove water and sweat. Sweat is produced naturally by more than 2.5 million subcutaneous sudoriferous glands. Sweat is a hypotonic solution with a content of 99% water (Marieb, 1992). Owing to the presence of sweat and the accumulation of various greasy substances collected during the manipulation of objects, the skin can be covered by a thin slippery deposit. Johansson and Westling (1984) have shown that, immediately after washing and drying the skin, the coefficient of friction increases. Therefore, there is an advantage in drying the hands. However, Cadoret and Smith (1996) showed that applying talcum powder to the skin can decrease the coefficient of friction. Magnesium carbonate could have the same effect, so that it may not be the best way to increase the coefficient of friction.

No scientific results directly support the use of chalk in rock climbing. Indeed, some studies (Johnson et al., 1993; Cadoret and Smith, 1996; Wyatt et al., 1996) cast doubt on its usefulness. The aim of this study was to determine the effect of magnesium carbonate on the coefficient of friction and its potential interaction with dampness and type of rock. We hypothesized that chalk would not improve the coefficient of friction for already dry hands and that applying water would decrease the coefficient of friction."

Ouch!

climber

Aug 3, 2007 - 02:44pm PT

If you get diarrhea while climbing, you can lick the chalk off the rocks and ease your discomfort.

jstan

climber

Aug 3, 2007 - 03:15pm PT

Following Ouch! I have to retell the story of my first purchase of chalk. I walked into a cutrate pharmacy in DC and asked the lady if they carried chalk.

She Said, "Yes we do."

I asked, "How much do you have?"

She replied, "Fourteen cakes."

I, of course, said, "I'll take them all."

With a suddenly long face she said softly, "Have you seen a Doctor?"

GG
Whoa! You are one fast typer.
My much smaller study was limited to my hands and as I remember now three kinds of rock. Gunks, Eldorado and some beautiful pink granite John Waterman had packed out from his climbing in Alaska. I swear he must have carried out thirty pounds as a present for his mom in DC.
Anyway I found chalk initially increased the effective coefficient of friction but as soon as the natural texture of the rock begins to be submerged the effective coefficient decreases by as much as 30%. I took to placing the chalk in a used sock whose pair had developed a hole. In order to keep the capital investment down I used a wire tie from a bread wrapper to close the sock. Has held up very well this past forty years and am still using it, but only when forced. Chalk consumption drops by easily an order of magnitude.
You even see marketing pictures of a climber with chalk pock marks all over the rock. Must be the advertising types have never seen natural rock. Incredible difference when there is no chalk.

G_Gnome

Sport climber

Everywhere, man...

Aug 3, 2007 - 04:27pm PT

Ha ha, I am just a really fast searcher, and cut and paster.

I use a LOT of chalk. But then I boulder a couple days a week still. And yes, the rock needs to be kept clean of chalk buildup so that the natural rugosity of the rock can stick to your fingers. I also find that if you coat your tips thickly enough in chalk you can keep bouldering longer before you wear holes in them. Maybe I have some sort of sickness that won't let me quit bouldering until something explodes, and as the rock rarely has that problem it is usually me that does.

I keep Metolius in the black!

TradIsGood

Happy and Healthy climber

the Gunks end of the country

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2007 - 05:53pm PT

It is definitely worse when other people used it (and left it on the rock).

Definitely worse sitting on the ground, spilled out of somebody's chalk bag.

I am considering golf towel instead. I have only used chalk once this year. (Thin Slabs on a hot day for the run-out thin section. Call me chicken.)

G_Gnome

Sport climber

Everywhere, man...

Aug 3, 2007 - 05:57pm PT

But then I don't find chalk nearly as useful when I am climbing 5.5 like you TradIsBad.

rockmuelle

Trad climber

B'ton, IN

Aug 3, 2007 - 06:38pm PT

I gave up chalk for lent about 6 years ago and haven't looked back. But, when I try to get others to do the same, I'm always met with doubt and suspicion. People doubt that they can climb without it for all the standard reasons: helps them focus, their hands get wet, it looks cool for pics, etc.

Now, I'm not the most hard-core climber out there - I climb mostly gear routes 5.10 and under. But, my home crag for the last four years has been the Red River Gorge. I've climbed in high heat and humidity (and rain) with no problems (well, at least no friction problems) and haven't once dipped in a partner's chalk bag (don't carry my own anymore). When I do jump on harder sport routes, finger friction is never an issue.

So, who else climbs without chalk? Are there scenarios where you still bring it along?

Is there there really a physiological reason for needing chalk or is it all psychological?

Am I just climbing at too low a grade for it to matter ("5.12s" in the gym don't count since, well, they're in the gym, and I get enough second hand chalk from the holds)?

-Chris

G_Gnome

Sport climber

Everywhere, man...

Aug 3, 2007 - 06:43pm PT

I think chalk is far more important on thin face stuff and stuff that doesn't overhang. Once the rock gets steep the holds get big enough that chalk doesn't matter as much. I would still chalk like a fiend, but then I started chalking in gymastics at about 13.

Oh, and if you think chalk actually reduced the coefficient of friction, don't you think that all Olympic gymnasts would be without chalk by now?

MikeL

climber

Aug 3, 2007 - 07:13pm PT

I get deep razor-like cuts on the edges of my fingernails that I'd have to apply superglue to to close them and then tape them with 3M surgical tape to fasciliate the healing. They bleed and it is painful. Using chalk on the rock or on blackboards at school exacerbates this problem. I don't know of other people who have the same problem. I quit using chalk a year ago. When I need "tacky" hands due to the slippery chalk I pick up on the rock, I spit in my hands and rub them together until the moisture is gone.

What gave me the idea to quit using chalk was the article that is referenced above. Works for me.

I don't like tape for cracks either.

jstan

climber

Aug 3, 2007 - 07:45pm PT

As to painful fingertips:

Calluses on the fingertips can reduce the difficulty of climbs by at least one grade. I found weekend climbing did not allow development of adequate calluses. Fortunately I had a concrete block wall available at work so I set up a program of beating the fingertips against that irregular surface several periods during each day. Once you have calluses though, you have to be careful not to rip them off.

Kind of funny. A nurse tried to take a blood sample from my fingertip once. She could not get the needle in. Come to think of it, that might be a good test.

TradIsGood

Happy and Healthy climber

the Gunks end of the country

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2007 - 08:30pm PT

GG - Funny. But this is about chalk, not my pathetic talent level.

All the grades at the Gunks are covered with chalk from 5.2 up.(OK, have not done any 11s and 12s, they might be cleaner for because of low traffic.)

jstan - funny story. Had the same thing happen to me a couple of times donating blood. Probably lots of us have had that happen?

jgill

climber

Colorado

Aug 4, 2007 - 05:27pm PT

Although I began using chalk on rock after being introduced to it in a gymnastics class at Ga Tech in the fall of 1954, it was a year or so later that I got the chance to demonstrate it to climbers from other areas. In the Tetons, those who scrambled about on the Jenny Lake boulders would dry their hands and then pat them on the forest floor, in the powdery duff there. For the most part, they found chalk to be far superior. And, it seems to me Jan and Herb Conn use to use powdery pine pollen from pine cones for the same purpose. Very quickly I found that over-chalking made things worse, and started carrying small brushes and hand towels with me bouldering(chalk caking up on gymnastic apparatus is not good, either!). I never did anything remotely like a scientific study - that seemed pointless when the personal evidence was so convincing. But there certainly climbers from that era who avoided using chalk on principle - they were usually the ones whose hands didn't sweat as much.

And, John, your story about the nurse: when I reported for duty at Glasgow AFB in 1959, the FBI tried to get my fingerprints, but failed. I was interrogated for an hour or so and finally managed to convince them I was not a Soviet agent. I had just arrived from some time spent on the rough granite of the Needles. After a few weeks they were able to get better prints.

jstan

climber

Aug 4, 2007 - 05:59pm PT

I know what you mean. Back in 1958 when I had my first fingerprints taken for a security classification I never for a moment thought the DIA dance would ever be a source for nostalgia. I am finally realizing we all were pretty good back then.

Developing good pads on the fingers was probably the easiest way for desk-bound wussies like myself to move their climbing up. Then being able to do a Tim Allen imitation when someone can’t get through them – is pure unadulterated bonus.

Ouch!

climber

Aug 4, 2007 - 06:14pm PT

"Glasgow AFB in 1959,"

Great place to spend a winter.

Domingo

Trad climber

Ann Arbor, MI

Aug 14, 2007 - 11:52pm PT

Sorry to bump this; I hadn't caught it before. Perhaps chalk is fine when things get sweaty, but my experience with climbers is that many walk around with white gloves of it on their hands.

What really gets me though is that most people chalk up before even touching the wall to see if they need it. Before their foot leaves the ground, before they touch the first hand-hold, they've used it.

I never use chalk; I guess I'm a bit of a purist in that sense. I'm pretty opposed to it. But I could see it when things get sweaty... it's just that no one uses it for that anymore. People don't think about the circumstances it's actually for. And then sh#t gets greasy and overchalked (Reed's Direct, anyone?).

I survive no problem without it. It's like tape gloves: a self-handicap.

The other thing worth pointing out is that I believe this article covers calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate only: all the companies a drying agent to their chalk.

*edited because I'm a dumbass

Curt

Boulder climber

Gilbert, AZ

Aug 15, 2007 - 12:07am PT

Calcium carbonate is great if you have gas--but climbing chalk is actually magnesium carbonate. Also, I have never seen anyone climb very hard without chalk.

Curt

Domingo

Trad climber

Ann Arbor, MI

Aug 15, 2007 - 12:34am PT

Then you haven't been looking very hard. I know plenty of people sending hard routes without chalk. I guess they aren't really chalkless though: there's so much powder left on the walls that you don't even need to bring your own.

Curt

Boulder climber

Gilbert, AZ

Aug 15, 2007 - 02:22am PT

"...Then you haven't been looking very hard. I know plenty of people sending hard routes without chalk..."

Sure you do. Perhaps my idea of "climbing hard" is somewhat different from yours?

Curt

turd

climber

Aug 15, 2007 - 01:35pm PT

Nice one Curt. Very rc.com.

Curt

Boulder climber

Gilbert, AZ

Aug 15, 2007 - 08:56pm PT

Whatever--a stupid comment is stupid on any website. Or, perhaps you have examples? Any V10s you know of or 5.14s sent without chalk? Just curious. I'll certainly stand corrected if someone comes up with something.

Curt

Brew Monkey

Big Wall climber

Bend Oregon

Aug 15, 2007 - 09:41pm PT

I dropped my chalk bag on the last 5.7 pitch of NW Face HD in'99. I say that bugger drop about 1000 feet hit and explode in white glory. Have not replaced it yet! I climb at Smith and to me it is a personal choice not to climb with chalk and some could say that it is true I am not up on Just Do It every day. But if you have ever been to Smith you know why. Chalk and Bolts EVERYWHERE!!!! So for me, no chalk. On the other side of the issue I have been in Yosemite and thought I was going to slip right off on a nice sunny day. There is a time and a place for everything...except Meth.

turd

climber

Aug 15, 2007 - 10:13pm PT

"a stupid comment is stupid on any website." -- Curt

Well, I'll agree with that.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 16, 2007 - 01:35am PT

"When Is Chalk Worse Than No Chalk?"

When you spend about a 1/4 of your energy establishing stances to chalk up when you could just climb as I watched a kid do the other day. He literally had a hard time doing more than a move or two without first stopping and heavily chalking up again - and on a very cool, dry day at that.

Domingo

Trad climber

Ann Arbor, MI

Aug 17, 2007 - 10:44am PT

I don't pay much attention to boulderers, unfortunately. I spent some time in Wild Iris and watched a friend work Throwin' the Houlihan and, after about four days, send it chalkless.

The thing is that (believe it or not, God forbid), some people don't make huge deals about the climbs they do. My take on this is that 80%+ of climbers haven't actually tried climbing chalkless, so there's correlation between climbing hard routes and chalk but not necessary causation.

drunkenmaster

Social climber

santa rosa

Apr 22, 2016 - 12:20pm PT

dawn of the dead post! extremely interesting and still a cutting edge topic 10 years after this first was posted. i have seen that in most cases for most people chalk does help dry sweaty hands on difficult terrain. but sometimes chalk does not help or at least too much chalk does not help. moisture can actually help too once in awhile. i sweat a lot and live near the humid coast in lush nor cal and climb slick smooth stone so i need chalk most all of the time to some degree but i am finding that in some instances too much chalk can often be worse than non at all. if you live or climb in an arid environment and do not sweat out of your hands a lot and maybe do not push the level of difficulty too much then maybe you won't need chalk. spitting on your hands and rubbing them together like when you pick up a dry axe with dry hands can help you stick better to some slick sloper hand holds and on easier terrain or bigger holds with dry hands chalk also is not as needed. ~more testing with various chalk types on various rock types and with various skin types (hard dry calloused vs moist soft non calloused) is needed imo :)

jogill

climber

Colorado

Apr 22, 2016 - 12:27pm PT

spitting on your hands and rubbing them together like when you pick up a dry axe with dry hands can help you stick better to some slick sloper hand holds and on easier terrain or bigger holds . . .

As I mentioned some time back, cherry lifesavers work well in this regard.

;>)

drunkenmaster

Social climber

santa rosa

Apr 22, 2016 - 12:51pm PT

cherry lifesaver eh? good beta! i will add that to the list of various things to try. maybe i will try some tree sap and hell even glue too! ~is glue cheating for a sloper problem crux off the ground lol :) this is serious stuff! always an honor master Gill.

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 23, 2016 - 08:05am PT

Chalk is always better!😎💩

MikeL

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Apr 23, 2016 - 08:13am PT

For some, it seems, chalk might be ceremonial.

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 23, 2016 - 08:27am PT

When your byotch of a teacher is making you write sentences

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 23, 2016 - 02:26pm PT

95% of chalk use is psychological.

Everytime I take a kid on an FA they always arrive at the belay shocked - shocked - at the necessity of actually watching the leader's movements on a pitch. They invariably say "I've never climbed a pitch without chalk on it before and didn't know what to do or where to go!". So as bad as the psychological crutch of dipping is, the cumulative effect over years of unconsciously climbing-by-the-dots is even more insidious.

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Apr 23, 2016 - 04:08pm PT

^^^Agreed.

Back in the '70s in Arizona there were guys putting up 5.11x and 5.12. And, that was in EBs, swamis, hexes, and no chalk.

I think Bernd Arnold has put up 5.13 without chalk (and cams, nuts, and shoes for that matter).

We commodify the climbing experience too much methinks - we confuse a larger number with a better experience.

There is a certain beauty of climbing without it - though I get the fun and coolness factor of climbing with it and have done that, too. Seems like it helps in The Valley, especially the smoothed out boulders around Camp 4 and in the greasy flare fests.

The playground just looks better kept without it.

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Apr 23, 2016 - 04:21pm PT

95% of chalk use is psychological

IMO not true. Depends upon the climber, the rock, the humidity, the temperature. I recall trying to climb at Devils Lake in the summer of 1959, with the slick rock, the heat, and the humidity. Some climbers have no need of chalk if their hands don't sweat, but I'm not one of them and chalk was essential for me. Maybe not for Joe or Mark.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 23, 2016 - 05:27pm PT

Not sure DL is a good example given that rubber, skin andr chalk don't really stick to that sh#t.

couchmaster

climber

Apr 23, 2016 - 06:23pm PT

Randisi said, quote:

"I love it when climbers who have hands that don't sweat much criticize those whose hands do."

Really? You love that?

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 24, 2016 - 10:18am PT

Chalk, if not dusted on too heavily, improves most people's grip. Some folks with especially dry hands might not see much benefit. Chalk also prevents a build-up of skin oils on holds, which in popular areas would probably become extremely greasy without chalk. Personally, I think this is the primary and best reason for chalk use.

Dusted on heavily as most climbers seem to do, chalk might actually decrease grip, while creating horrible white blotches all over the rock. The esthetic effects have been devastating in some areas, and the marking of the way seriously diminishes the role of uncertainty in climbing challenge.

I wouldn't say chalk use is psychological so much as habitual. Dipping into the bag is an essentially unconscious tic without purpose and probably in many cases without actual benefit. But sometimes it is a component of a calming routine, or a preparation routine for a big effort, and in that sense might be viewed as psychological, although the psychology involved is more ritualistic than based on any expectation of higher grip strength.

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Apr 24, 2016 - 11:55am PT

Rich, Your advocating the chalk ball seems like a good compromise and lessens the visual impact and loss of discovery.

jogill

climber

Colorado

Apr 24, 2016 - 01:49pm PT

It might interest you to know a few factiods about how it all started. In my gymnastics class at Ga Tech in the fall of 1954 the 20 foot rope climb was still a legitimate event. The heavy natural fiber rope would become unclimbable with bodily oils were climbers to avoid the chalk conveniently placed close by. If anyone tried this he would be shouted off and required to chalk up.

In the mid 1950s when I would go up on a climb in the Tetons, like the Jenson or the Southwest Ridge on Symmetry Spire, I would usually wear a flannel shirt with a breast pocket where I would slip a small block of chalk, using it occasionally. On the boulders at Jenny Lake the smooth pegmatite was much easier to climb on with a little chalk, as was the warm limestone at Blacktail Butte. Again, mostly a small block carried or set on a nearby rock.

Before I brought chalk to the scene at Jenny Lake, the guides and rangers would pat their hands in the forest duff before trying a boulder problem. In the Needles, Jan and Herb Conn would would use pine cone dust for this purpose. In Europe Pierre Allain and other Bleusards used resin - probably for footholds. I suspect the pioneers of the sport of rock climbing in the 1880s had some little tricks as well, although I never came across that in my historical research.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 24, 2016 - 06:22pm PT

I had the same experience as Jon with a gym climbing rope, and it forms the basis of my claim that not using chalk would make the rock greasy.

I used gym climbing ropes regularly for years at the West Side Y in NYC and the gym at SUNY New Paltz. They were frequently used and were usually impossible to climb the way I was doing it; skin oils deposited by many users made them too slippery. The first thing I had to do was to climb the ordinary hand over hand way to the top, and then, using my feet, slowly descend, chalking every inch of the rope on the way down. Only after that could I do my workout.

dee ee

Mountain climber

Of THIS World (Planet Earth)

Apr 25, 2016 - 06:21pm PT

Pouring rain.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Apr 25, 2016 - 09:00pm PT

I recall working out on a chinup/highbar in a park back in the 70s. I think I was doing one arm chin-ups. I remember putting chalk on my hands at one point and the grip was so good I ripped the skin off my palm or palms.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:08am PT

I would expect nothing less than a rousing defense of chalk, despite the fact it is estimated that the incidence of palmar hyperhidrosis is way less than 5% of the population of the United States. Go way out and give it 20% have issues or, hell, let's get way out on a plank and say 50% - that's still a matter of a serious addiction.

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 26, 2016 - 08:18am PT

been using a chalk ball for years. helps to reduce the use as someone else mentioned and no more chalk dumps

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 26, 2016 - 11:11am PT

Back in the '70s in Arizona there were guys putting up 5.11x and 5.12. And, that was in EBs, swamis, hexes, and no chalk.

Well, I'm afraid you're going to have to provide me with the names of those climbers and routes before I'll believe that. Most of the hard-core AZ climbers I know certainly used chalk back in the day.

Curt

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 26, 2016 - 11:13am PT

Actually, I think the "rousing defense of chalk" probably comes from the fact that it works so well.

Curt

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Apr 26, 2016 - 12:26pm PT

Curious, does anyone here not use chalk when they go to a climbing gym?

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 26, 2016 - 12:27pm PT

Not that you were asking me sir but I don't go to climbing gyms

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:04pm PT

Well, I'm afraid you're going to have to provide me with the names of those climbers and routes before I'll believe that. Most of the hard-core AZ climbers I know certainly used chalk back in the day

Steve Grossman and Paul Davidson. There were others roughly in that range if the pro was good, but these guys were standouts.

Steve is from Tucson and he was really passionate about not using chalk. The crews from Prescott and especially Flagstaff were carrying the flame for that super clean style. A lot of that was due to inspiration from Scott Baxter, the pater prima of the Syndicato Granitica.

Routes of 5.11x - Lucky goes to the Creamery, Coherent Excitation,...there are more, but they don't come to mind at hand.

I could do well protected 5.11 and "easy" 5.12 in that style on a good day. None of that X stuff for me unless it was 5.5!

Steve and Paul were so way out of my league....

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:05pm PT

Yup, & I know I'm missing out,
& my performance /conditioning suffer,
but,
going to a climbing gym is cheating , . . . . so is chalk
If a gym where to open up, here , close to me,
I would try not to go.
I try not to use chalk all the time, with mixed results. . . B~D

Gill's Egg needs No more Chalk.
Someone. . . add a story, & a picture wouldn't hurt

YEAHA, !
Curt!
That was the only pic, I could find.
Im not There But the crimps Glow.
Climbing by the 'white dot method 'steals from the experience,
A humble opinion, as well as a hypocritical one too, I use Chalk.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:05pm PT

I think this thread is absolutely riveting compared to the "Ready for Satan?"-type threads....

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:12pm PT

Gill's Egg needs No more Chalk.
Someone. . . add a story, & a picture wouldn't hurt

Sorry, I used chalk. No climbing shoes though, because THAT would be cheating :-)

Curt

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:26pm PT

Not using chalk in the climbing gym should be a punishable offense in the same league as climbing barefoot. Plastic gets greased up so fast.

Between the feces and the grease-filled chalk the whole thing is just kind of gross

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:31pm PT

yep, that's gross too. I try not to do the rope biting thing if I can and clip from my waist

Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber

City of Salt

Apr 26, 2016 - 01:41pm PT

Curious, does anyone here not use chalk when they go to a climbing gym?

Rarely. I go the gym quite frequently and have problems with my hands being too dry to grip the holds due to the over abundance of chalk already there. Occasionally I even spit on my hands to do a move off of a difficult hold that I'm having trouble gripping.

Oddly, I first realized this when I was noticed I could pick eggs out of a carton really easily after washing dishes when my hands retained some moisture but I couldn't do it when my hands were dry. Also, climbing in Europe I do really well (and use chalk occasionally) with slightly more humid conditions.

Years ago I did learn that obsessive chalking was not a good way of dealing with nerves. I focus on my breathing at rests and only chalk when I really need to.

jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Apr 26, 2016 - 08:19pm PT

. . . I noticed I could pick eggs out of a carton really easily after washing dishes when my hands retained some moisture but I couldn't do it when my hands were dry

Yes, that's why I now advocate cherry LifeSavers for times like those on the rocks. But there will be those among you who will argue strongly against this practice. Kind of like AGW.

;>)

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Apr 26, 2016 - 09:05pm PT

Didn't we go through this several decades ago?

The puritans are funny, so serious and righteous about chalk while they grease up the holds...

gunsmoke

Mountain climber

Clackamas, Oregon

Apr 26, 2016 - 09:17pm PT

In most situations the weight of the bag isn't worth what little advantage chalk might give. I used to look down on those who use a lot of chalk, figuring it was a psychological thing. One day I knuckle bumped a kid who just put up a gym lead, and was surprised by the obviously wet feel of the back of his fingers. Having worked with a lot of high school aged kids, I've come to realize that some sweat profusely. In the case of one kid in particular, other kids would ask him to use chalk so that the route wouldn't be left slimed.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 26, 2016 - 09:24pm PT

Didn't we go through this several decades ago?

Yes. Same with the thread about retro bolting. If we didn't recycle old issues, we'd have nothing to talk about....except politics :-)

Curt