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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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I like to share climbing trips I take and I like to read about trips other people take, but it is difficult to gauge just how interesting they are to the ST community. Sometimes I think I am being a bore, an attention whore, or just a spewmeister when something gets posted and my reaction to few responses is "gee, why did I post that?"
A quick look at response to climbing trip reports indicates that the number of responses are rather limited. The current "front page" trip report is A Photo TR of Potrero Chico which was originally posted April 8th, and has 28 response to it.
Does the number of response indicate the interest of the ST forum in this trip report?
Obviously some of us love to talk about the climbing that we do in the ST Forum pages. There is some indication that the Forum members are actually interested in seeing even more trip reports. But sometimes I wonder how the authors get motivated to put this stuff up, cause the limited number of response, compared to a thread like the "Execute Bush and Cheney?" thread (weighing in with 255 responses) would not indicate the level of interest is very high.
I try to respond to the TR's but at some point my comments seem lame compared to how I feel about the TR... the value I derive is much larger than the comments that I provide. But that's just me. This is sort of a variant of the multiple subject forum format that is periodically suggested... I don't think that that fix does anything to indicate the degree of interest from the readers.
The question is: how to get people to post TR's? what motivates them? how can we show our interest in them?
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
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in my latest trip report, i included a reason as to why i wrote it:
So why am I writing this? Well a couple of reasons I suppose; first off I had allot of help from people on the climbing related internet forums. I’d like to let them know what all of there help contributed to, and I hope they all have as much fun reading this as I do reading their trip reports. Second, this was a big deal to me, and memory is short. I hope 20 years from now I can still track this down and reread it. So I hope everybody enjoys reading about our little adventure, we had fun taking part in it, in that I have a weird idea of fun kind of way. So, what follows is a short summary of our Estes Park experience for the last couple of years, and then a detailed day by day account of this year’s trip. I tried to be as accurate as I could, and then I’m going to have Steve edit so he might be able to remember some things I didn’t and correct some things I might have remembered wrong. Enjoy and your feedback is appreciated.
personally, i LOVE reading peoples trip reports. i wish everybody wrote them, and i wish allot of poeple wrote them more often. they are also an excellent refrence for my future trip planning. though i'll admit, even though i read almost all of them, i don't always reply. i guess sometimes i don't have anything constructive to add, or i don't have any specific questions, and just writting "nice trip report!" seams kind of redundant when three people already said that.
so i'll just state now for the record: if you write a trip report, and even if i don't respond too it, i give you my heartfelt thanks for taking the time to share your adventure!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:56pm PT
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I don't think I speak for myself by saying that TR's are probably the most interesting posts to read (other than accident reports, unfortunately). But, as you said Ed, commenting on them feels lame to me. "Nice TR", "Thanks for posting", bla bla bla. But now that you bring it up, I'm thinking if I ever post a TR, I'd like to hear those kind of comments. Otherwise, you'd think, "Damn, people must think I'm totally lame". So maybe an unwritten guideline on here should be that if you view a TR, be kind enough to make a comment regardless of how lame you think it sounds. Show some respect to the OP for the time taken to share an adventure.
That said, I'm going back to the Potrero TR and saying, "Nice TR, thanks dude".
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Nov 16, 2006 - 03:57pm PT
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Word Ed. I'm betting that most people read the TR but don't post comments.
It's hard to write a TR without spraying.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
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Good one Ed.... making trip reports can be pretty hard work, especially if they are historic in any way ie: no digi camera to download... The TR-er must start scanning a bunch of slides, clean up the relics, slap in some prose and churn the memory banks. I admit I've got to be pretty damn bored to try and generate a trip report from the old days... usually it is because there is talk of a route or something on the 'Taco and an old TR with pics would be a nice supplement. Couple the work involved with the gone in a flash shelf life of most TR's, and it is not that attractive unless you are just doing them for yourself, like on a personal web site or something. If you are looking for a reach around from the membership, then a TR seems like a tough way to get it. Saying Bush is an idiot is a sure fire way for instant gratification. Sad ain't it?
On a side note, I have a project in the works to archive and make a bunch a TR's and some of the better written and historical works from here and other sites always available. Expect a launch date around the first of the year. So all ya'll start cranking out some good stuff that will have an appreciative home for years to come.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
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I agree that TRs get a lot more views than indicated by the
response. If I'm not one of the first people to read it, I feel
inadequate in responding: nice, blah blah, mumble mumble.
I can't say I read them all, but almost all. I like them a lot,
almost all of them. I'm in awe of the ability to write a good
report.
I'll try to be a more supportive reader in the future.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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TRs are the best reading on here in general. However, I often don't comment because I have nothing to add except a "wow, cool" and I hate to sound like someone who always has to say something. Don't stop with the TRs!!
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Long's Shadow
Trad climber
Fort Fun, CO
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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Trip reports are also my favorite posts (especially with pictures). I don't think anyone who posts a TR has to worry about them not being appreciated. And to be honest, I think many who post have a healthy ego (mean that in a good way) and don't care (or shouldn't) what other people think. Writers often say they have to write. Post you're stories, sit back, and let us enjoy!
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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Trip reports are certainly among the best threads one sees on this portal....the spew factor doesn't seem that high and if I climbed at a higher grade, I'd probably post some myself. Somehow, talking about some multipitch 5.6 I've just managed doesn't seem like it would be worth writing up..."the chubby weekender tr series...no waiting...
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murcy
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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Okay, here. I warmed up on the white 5.8, did mainly moderates, had to hangdog the new orange 11c, but the corner 11b was easy. cool fall morning, empty gym.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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Inner city-
I'd read a TR about a 68 year old geriatric slogging up a 5.1. It's about relating the experience.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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Au contraire, Inner City.
The quality of a trip report, like the quality of a person,
is independent of the difficulty of the climbing. After all,
any of these can be written without using any numbers.
sm
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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Well now I feel dumb even responding to this, because all I can do is agree. Yeah, right on! TRs are cool! heh.
Maybe showing the # of views associated with the thread would help. Not sure is people even care, I wouldn't mind it though.
Cheers,
Tom
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:22pm PT
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on another point, being a flatlander that doesn't get to go on but one or two adventures a year, writting a trip report is kind of a way to prolong the fun.
i don't feel its all that essential that everybody reply's to my trip reports. but its nice to see it when cool people add a cool response! we don't have a view counter over here, but we do on other forums and its a bit of a kick to see how many poeple viewed it.
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snakefoot
climber
cali
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Nov 16, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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enjoy most of the TR's, sometimes comment, prefer to see included photos.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2006 - 04:35pm PT
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thanks for the boost on my recent TR's but that wasn't the point... for some reason I will post TR's because I have heard that people do like to read all TR's (not just mine). But I am interested in reading more TR's, I don't care if they are 5.6 or 5.16... or where on the humble-to-spew spectrum they are...
I just wanted to have your thoughts on what would make an incentive to post them, given the way that the Taco organizes itself on the top posts being the most recently reponded to.
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jackass
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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Okay, I am in the minority, but from my vantage point, TR's are lame. It does seem like you are spraying about yourself. The only time I find them of interest is when something unique or worthy happened, and even then I am suspicious of the person who posted it. But that's just me... get out and climb, post beta on sites like mountainproject if you want to, but just posting pictures of your first aid climb or some other stupid shite seems narcissitic. Granted, I don't need to read them, and as the posts attest, I am in the minority.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
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there's always one jackass isn't there? :-)
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:19pm PT
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I enjoy sharing with my friends. I'll share my beer. I'll share my gear. I'll share my TR. The same goes for my taco-friends in that I enjoy when they share their experiences (and beer). I view none of this as ego-stroking. Seems more like being human to me.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Nov 16, 2006 - 05:48pm PT
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Interesting thread...
I agree that, as a TR poster, it is hard to gauge how much the group likes to read them. Since mine are posted on my personal site, I have the advantage of knowing how many times a page on my site has been viewed on a certain day/week. Perhaps there is a way to show how many times a thread has been viewed within the forum? This info is reflected on in the forums on RC.com. (aka the slowest site on Earth)
It also seams that this group consists more of West Coast folks and that the readership is more into Alpine, Yosemite, and exotic than rec.climbing/mountainproject which seem to be more Rocky Mountain centric. That could be totally incorrect... it just my perception.
I know that I got more hits and replies for my Bugaboos posts than for any of my desert TR posts. It would certainly seem that the Totem Pole is an exception.
Someone asked how long a TR with pics takes.... I think I average around 6-8 hours (sometimes more) and around $40-$80 in film and processing costs per page. I shoot slides which contributes to the cost and the time involved (scanning etc.).
General Process Outline:
1 Go drop off and pick up Processed film
2 Sort though pics and decide which ones will best convey the experience
3 Scan those shots
4. Sort though the Digi shots that are on the cameral I give to my partners
5. Size all the pics for the web and save them as tiffs
6. Make any color/density etc. corrections that are needed to the pics
7. Create any pano shots from individual shots that you want for the site
8. Save the pics as jpegs
9. Rename the pics in the order that you want them to be seen on the site
10. Run them through a thumbnail program that creates a very basic web page
11. Copy an existing web page from my site and change a few things to reflect the new TR I am making.
12. Copy the Thumbnail web page info to the newly copied page (so it matches the rest of the site)
13. Write an actual TR
14. Write descriptions for all the pictures on the page
15. Walk away and proof the page the next day
16. Upload the page and add links to the other pages on my site as well as to the Internet forums
17. Drink and/or smoke heavily and bask in the glory that is the page you created and in the knowledge that, if you are lucky, it will be read by tens of people.
Fortunately I do this for myself more than for any Internet notoriety.
Brad
http://www.piquaclimber.com
PS. If you shoot only digi and you post your TRs directly to this forum It should take way less time that I outlined above so keep em coming people... :)
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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Ed keep the TR's coming!
I'm with Crimpergirl. Its difficult to comment on some of the stunning pics.
I read every TR especially those with photographs as it gives a first hand account. This is much more useful that say the guide book.
Climb safe.
H.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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I concur with above that if threads included page views you'd get a more accurate idea of the interest in threads. Reads vs. replies. BUT, I don't want that, I enjoy the simplicity of this forum and want it to stay that way. Less is more IMO.
Trip reports are usually not controversial so they don't generate much back and forth bantering that keeps the posts current and the topic on the top of the most recent posts.
It sure is nice though when people reply that they appreciated TRs.
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le_bruce
climber
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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What would this site be without TR's? The most valuable contributors to this site are those that tell their stories. TR's make this place feel like the virtual campfire it is purported to be. Other post(ers) make it feel instead like sharpie scrawlings on a Jr. High bathroom stall - which can be hillarious and worth it when done with artistry.
A salute to all you knights of the quill! Appreciated.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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Ed, your TR was fine. I read every TR unless T*R wrote it. It's always nice to see what other people find special about their climbing experiences. I don't post TRs because I climb almost every weekend and so it is rare to have a SPECIAL trip. And I almost never take a camera climbing so my TRs would be like the last one James wrote. So keep writing them and we will keep reading them. Just don't expect a lot of attaboys but know that they are appreciated.
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waddell
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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I love reading everyones trip reports but rarely post after I read them. I think there may be alot like myself out there. Keep posting!!!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
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ok already, shut up and post your trip reports from the climbing you were doing.
edited - started to post my own trip report and realized how lame it was. sometimes it is just a record of what I managed to drag my ass up that day. bottom line- 16 routes at Bamas on Sat. several easy solos and 2 good leads on good rock on Poodle wall.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Nov 16, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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Yeah DMT.... you are on the right track. Might even launch sooner. Of course all the mysterious copyright stuff could get in the way, but... we have ways.
It is a shame to lose the good efforts so soon. At least this way a post every now and again could remind everyone that there is good stuff out there and all in one place.
Anyway.... keep your ears and eyes open and if you have any input on my project, EMAIL ME. Love to hear about it.
Russ@fishproducts.com
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 16, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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I like TR's the best. and it is often weird to comment on them. I think Trip Reporters have to do it out of commitment and be satisfied with fewer responses than the more manipulative types of Trolls get.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 16, 2006 - 07:17pm PT
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Stich suckered me into posting TRs when I was working all the time and spending a lot of time on RC.com. That lead to a neat gig going to OR and reporting on it, making new friends, etc, etc.
I've never been much for the attention whoring of it, so generally I only do a TR when something horrible happens and it turns into a real story. Or a funny story.
I don't think I've ever had the guts to post one on SuperTopo, though.
I recently crossed genres and made possibly the first-ever herding trip report this weekend: http://www.theaustralianshepherd.net/aussieboard/viewtopic.php?t=1762
Much the same thing. Feels a lot like bragging, but sometimes you need to share, eh? Curlie remarked that reading the dog TR is what it must be like for non-climbers reading our TRs.
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bobmarley
Trad climber
auburn, california
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Nov 16, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
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i'm into the TRs. it's cool to see what folks are into and pics of different areas. what motivates me the most on TRs are the pics, and not so much the rhetoric.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:15pm PT
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I'm always interested in seeing great pics and reading notes about conditions, gear used, etc. particularly if said info isn't in the supertopo online beta. Maybe crowding out the political and off-topic stuff isn't so bad ...
For example, Ed's notes on Loggerhead Ledge were pretty interesting to me, as we bailed off that route earlier in the spring (it was more like waterlogged ledge at the time :)
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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Keep them coming Ed. Always love to here about a good adventure.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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ok, so here is another detail problem...
my highbandwidth account with Comcast has only about 25MB of storage for a web site... which is where I post my pix. I "chatted" with their online support and they said, "no way to increase the storage."
I don't know why I feel queezy posting them on an "open" site like photobucket, but I do...
...however, if I continue posting TR's with pix I will eventually run out of room and have to take down old picture links. I actually have no idea who might be looking at the old TR's, and I agree that, at least for my TR's, they are a lot better with pix then without. So at some point I have to make a choice.
Paying for my own web site might be an option... anyone have experience doing this? My place of employment does not believe that the taxpayer should have to foot the bill for my personal web presence, and I agree with them (of course, I'm management), so that is not an option...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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Ed... web space is cheap relative to the vanity allotment. Does your comcast acct. allow additional email addresses? Does each one have 25mb of space for personal web stuff? Go the Ed1 - Ed6 route and get them pics locked in there for life.
Mountain Man edit:
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
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Maybe some of your pics/TR's belong on summitpost.org or mountainproject.com ... I know you can write more formal and structured TR's with pics all hosted on SP.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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flickr.com - you can host them there and then link to the pictures.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Nov 16, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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That's an excellent point - I use flickr.com as well
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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Trip reports or just "stories" are what I like best about ST. I scan the front page to see if any new ones are out and sometimes re-read an old that that has been bumped. I will sometimes post a comment, mostly to show support or bump it back up so others like me can enjoy them.
Like Mac, I don't think I've ever posted a TR on ST. Most of the climbing I do is not even a warm up lap for most of you guys. I did make a trip to the Valley and climbed with Karl Baba. I expected to do a whole TR on that one but somehow I can't get my mind around the experience. Sort of like trying to describe a dream. Unimaginable and indescribable. Not only the Valley but climbing and visiting with the Baba too. More than I can put words to.
Keep em coming, I love em.
SammyLee
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:23pm PT
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If each thread had a view counter showing the number of different users who looked at a thread, I would guess that the TRs would have a higher count then most of the political threads.
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YetAnotherDave
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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>>If each thread had a view counter showing the number of different users
>> who looked at a thread, I would guess that the TRs would have a higher
>>count then most of the political threads.
On the bigwalls forum it has a views counter, and the last (only) TR I posted has 3 replies and 130 views - it is nice to know that someone's at least looking at your writing, even if they don't feel the need to comment :)
http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=184.0
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 16, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
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I like trip reports. Well-written ones and/or good stories are highlights of any climbing forum; they certainly were for the old (now fading) rec.climbing.
That said, I'm guilty of both the sins noted here:
(1) Often, not posting to tell someone else "nice TR," when I don't have anything particular to contribute about that route; and conversely,
(2) When I've written my own TRs, concluding from the lack of responses by other folks that it wasn't interesting, and I shouldn't bother to write TRs in the future.
Certainly the rants and trolls get much higher numbers, day after day, so on that evidence they are what a majority of posters really like to see and do here.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 16, 2006 - 11:20pm PT
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Sammy Lee wrote
"Like Mac, I don't think I've ever posted a TR on ST. Most of the climbing I do is not even a warm up lap for most of you guys. I did make a trip to the Valley and climbed with Karl Baba. I expected to do a whole TR on that one but somehow I can't get my mind around the experience. Sort of like trying to describe a dream. Unimaginable and indescribable. Not only the Valley but climbing and visiting with the Baba too. More than I can put words to. "
Get your Lazy Southern Ass in Gear Swamp Donkey! ;-)
It's pretty obvious that the threads that get a lot of responses are when folks have an issue to debate-flame-discuss about.
We just have to make a point of bumping quality threads with non-quality comments like I just did.
Peace
Karl
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Jarhead City, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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The TRs are some of the best stuff here. Ed, I read your Tennessee TR and enjoyed it. Used to live and climb down in that part of the country and it's nice to see pics and hear how someone sees it as a first timer from the west.
Like many, I don't post on them because I don't really have anything to add other than "check out T-Wall next time" or something similarly lame.
But for sure, TR's with pics are my second favorite thing here (fave being the historic type threads with pics...like the Mussy Nebula series).
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 17, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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Ed,
Keep writing your trip reports. A lot of people read them, both regulars and lurkers. I try to write a TR about any good outing I have. Not because my climbing or writing is all that good but more because i enjoy writing them and I know people like to read them. And I send the links to my mom. Also the more TRs by all of us the more it balances out the pointless drivel on the flame fests.
Not that the flame fests bother me or anything.
I'm also experimenting with waiting to comment about TRs until after they slip off the front page. Of course then I forget and miss thanking folks. So, thanks to all for any I've missed. You know who you are. Thanks.
See ya on the rock.
Zander
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john hansen
climber
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Nov 17, 2006 - 01:58am PT
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I would just like to say Ed the T,R's are the reason I check out this place.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:01am PT
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"On the bigwalls forum it has a views counter, and the last (only) TR I posted has 3 replies and 130 views - it is nice to know that someone's at least looking at your writing, even if they don't feel the need to comment :)"
Try being a magazine or newspaper author. I get these articles published in rags and never hear a single comment one way or the other. I'm also writing a newsletter for my company right now and the only feedback I get is the number of "unsubscribe"s I get back after it's sent. Ouch!
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:07am PT
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Ed,
I personally have gotten a lot from your TR's. I'm inspired especially by the lesser known routes. By the same token, I haven't posted many myself since I'm climbing the common and middle grade routes. The hailstorm on Fairview was interesting, tho.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:18am PT
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I enjoy the trip reports. I agree with the idea that posting "good trip" or whatever does seem kinda lame. At the same time, considering the nature of this forum, even posting "good job" bumps the TR to the top.
though I don't agree with jackass he does have a point. TR's do tend to (at least on the surface) be an ego feed. It's probably why many folks don't write them up. I've started a few TR's and after hacking away felt like it was more of an ego feed than anything else and deleted the work. I think if you can work beyond the ego part of it it's easy to enjoy just knowing someone out there is doing something cool. Reading TR's when I'm not out having fun makes me really want to get the hell out of town and have an adventure (like right now damnit!).
Jody Edit: For $18.95 a month at tektonic you can run unlimited websites with unlimited email address, unlimited databases, unlimited whatever-the-fuk you wanna run on the machine, with many gigs of bandwidth. OF course you gotta know a little sumthin sumthin about running a webserver....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 02:53am PT
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Ed's TR have some particular value, especially the obscure routes he does.
Sometimes I think, "Hmm, maybe this old obscure route is really a classic gem waiting to be rediscovered." then Ed does it, takes picture and the reality becomes clear. I might visit some of those routes someday, some I'll skip, but the delusion is replaced by realism.
Maybe that spoils some of the adventure but it also spoils the time wasting.
peace
karl
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:05am PT
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Besides the TRs, and more generally all the old and new stories, I love the photo threads. Or photo/TR or photo/story threads. These are some of the things Supertopo does best, and the most fun to find on the front page. May they continue to thrive even though it's like salmon swimming upstream against the current of umm, whatever all that other stuff is.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 17, 2006 - 09:46am PT
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Ed et al,
Thanks for putting up this important thread. Believe me Ed, your posts are like precious gems to most of us, along with your scientific contributions. I can’t overstate this.
It is easy to talk oneself out of developing a few of one’s TR’s. I have been watching this happen to friends for 45 years now and it drives me crazy. As others point out above, it can be much work, and some research even sometimes. It might take months or years. Often one feels wordless and helpless. It usually has to start out very scribbly, dorky and directionless, maybe only paragraphic notes and thoughts. But eventually if you can keep on it, the thing takes shape, always.
The making of a TR really enriches and gives structure to the amorphous variously-pronged experience you had; in effect it is very much to one’s own benefit! And meanwhile it contributes at least to community, to general stoke, and perhaps eventually to additional friendships. So doing a bit of writing is basically mandatory in my view; it is socially constructive. You have finally joined the community surely when you make this effort. I wish to hell there had been a great deal more of it, especially by our best of the last 40 years. The internet and computers have clearly facilitated this process recently though.
Some of the TR’s here are about advanced climbs---great!---but frankly some of the sweetest and coolest here have been from Newbies reporting vivaciously on their recent conquests, usually including a wonderful flood of photos that are just too fantastic in their enthusiasm and joy. So understanding this, it certainly does not matter that one’s TR might be about a thrilled day on Monday Morning Slab as opposed to something really sophisticated, new and scary. Can one find the meaning of that day and those friendships in this simple context, a pleasant day on a 5.4 or will it slip away from you again?
The response level on ST is a measure of how much effect you might have generated in the minds of ST’ers, and what your pre-established reputation and relationship to rock climbing might be, but it does not measure how many have read your TR. Plenty of ST’ers won’t post a response after they read a report because they might feel they don’t belong here really, or aren’t hot enough to make a remark, or are too busy with their own stuff. And it is true as others point out here, that it is important to reply-post Something, when someone else has sweated and grunted out his/her TR and tendered it for our benefit. You would complement a leader after his/her lead similarly. And there are some very famous and historic climbers here who never post, but lurk, by the way, and in their old-fashioned way keep it all to themselves, neatly avoiding the occasional shitfights we seem to have, but also failing to contribute to the community that has sheltered them all these years, given them the life they have. Keeping oneself inaccessible is my view often despicable.
Some of us are more literarily inclined of course, and obviously there is a huge spread in the levels of education and profession among us. But again, most of the best, vital writing in climbing has been by people without creative writing degrees, and in many cases without a college degree. You have to write, you have to extend yourself.
So as to whether one's TR's are read or not, you just have to know they are, and even if they weren't, it is still all good.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Nov 17, 2006 - 10:16am PT
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well said, Mr. Haan.
I enjoy most any/all TR's, even if I don't say "nice TR"
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Nov 17, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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Nice TR thread, Ed!
I really enjoyed reading it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2006 - 10:59am PT
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I must say that I enjoy all of the trip reports that are posted. They are fuel for the fire, so to speak... and answer the inevitable drive in question: "what to do? what to do?" Zander's TR on Chockstone Chimney caught Gary's imagination and launched us up that route... whoa nellie!
I also look at some of the TR's like Karl, "gee, is that really what I want to do?" But I also have the advantage of climbing with Eric, who is undaunted by any rumor, gossip or slander regarding a route he has fixated on... most likely though, he will be selecting from a list where no known modern history exists. I love it when that happens! It is capturing a bit of adventure climbing.
For those of you who might tip to the side of reporting... you should! Sometimes it sounds like spew... James, for instance, edited his comments above and took out the bits about his detailed accomplishments on the Eastside boulders... I actually like to hear about that stuff too because I go to the Eastside and my mates there like to induce me to go out and boulder... the more I know I'm being sandbagged the better the experience!
And Tarbuster's threads are more like "long strange trip reports" which often careen from deep dark history to up to the moment events... and forgive me for saying it, but I like to remember how it was to be young in the '70s, and the pix from the past are awesome in revealing the stretch of time.
Authorship probably does have a bit of ego involved, but that is not bad in itself. Sometimes there is a good story there and it pushes past all the petty stuff.. and sometimes the petty stuff isn't so petty.
Climbing is about the experience. I went through long periods of my life where I just wanted the experience and nothing else. But complaining that the crowds on the "trade routes" don't know what they're missing one day, I realized that there was no one singing the praise of the "adventure experience" on the less or never done routes. So posting here is at least a way of expanding the horizon of climbers seeking a little different experience.
In my view, no climbing experience in Yosemite is complete without having to deal with ant trees...
...how else could you relate to that Sheradon Anderson cartoon, "Watch out for the ants" the leader calling down, rope snaking off the cliff to the skelleton in belay position, clothed in down jacket, woollen cap, climbing pants and boots, and smoking a cigarette.
Perhaps I should make a list of all the ant-tree routes in the Valley!
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Carolyn C
Trad climber
Gardnerville, NV
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Nov 17, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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"In my view, no climbing experience in Yosemite is complete without having to deal with ant trees...
...how else could you relate to that Sheradon Anderson cartoon, "Watch out for the ants" the leader calling down, rope snaking off the cliff to the skelleton in belay position, clothed in down jacket, woollen cap, climbing pants and boots, and smoking a cigarette."
Ed, I burst out laughing when I read that, and I love TRs for that reason. I hadn't thought about my Yosemite ant tree experience for years: belaying my partner who was normally very quick on the lead but, of course, slowed down like a cow stuck in mud while I was being eaten alive. Great thread.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Nov 17, 2006 - 05:03pm PT
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Hey Maculated,
I read a trip report that you wrote for rc.com a few years ago. It got crossposted to rec.climbing. As I recall, the reactions there were about your style, attempts to get you to contribute to the rec. and praise for some of the well-crafted phrases you used.
So I went and checked it out at rc.com, and the reaction there
was dominated by a back-and-forth with a stuffy know-it-all
about your not having a headlamp. I mean it seemed Endless..
It was a wonderful piece, and it would go over here very well.
Could you maybe..
Find it and post it here? Start firing out some new TRs for us?
I know we'd like them.
sm
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 17, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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It's my personal little tradition of the last few years to google whatever routes I did the previous weekend or climbing trip to relive my experience, see what others though of this-or-that, etc.
Whenever I'm doing this for any route in Yosemite that's not in the Supertopo, 9 times out of 10 there will be a mention of it on Clint Cummins' site. Frequently there will be a mention on Joel Ager's or Bill Wright's. Sometimes there will be a mention on rec.climbing that's not from one of the above. Beyond that, there's not much. On the one hand it's fun not knowing. On the other hand, it's fun sharing too.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 18, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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Trip reports containing photos are hugely more entertaining than those without. Putting the photos directly into the text is very involving - you can't not keep reading. Fewer words, more photos.
However it is also incredibly time consuming to photoshop photos [those in the know are aware that the maximum size photo that should appear here on a McTopo forum post is 700 pixels wide], upload them to a server, copy the links and write the report.
The ONLY WAY the people who take the time and make the effort to do this will know that their posts are read and enjoyed, is when people reply to them. The last time I tried this was for my [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=96536"]El Cap Tribal Rite photo essay trip report.[/url] I specifically asked that people reply to the post if they liked it, and there were a couple hundred responses I think. What that told me was that my hard work was worth the effort.
A response to the post also keeps it on the front page where others can see it.
Otherwise, how would I know?
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Nov 18, 2006 - 06:14pm PT
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A great day (or days) of climbing is a great high, wheather it's 5.5 or 5.15, as someone said earlier. It's nice to share the high with friends. The mechanics of keeping it orgainzed, I don't know, but, I like em!
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 18, 2006 - 09:59pm PT
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If people are getting something out of their experience and can convey that, them the TR is usually worth reading.
I'm going to make an effort to reply more often to keep those trip reports up near the top of the list. Especially Ed's obscure quests, fragrant with the smell of formic acid-- don't it take you back?
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BPorter
Big Wall climber
Quartz Hill, Ca
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Nov 19, 2006 - 03:38pm PT
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Ed,
Trip reports are the reason why I put up with the other BS on this site. Honest, sincere reflections on climbs you have completed, or not completed, is what I truly enjoy. Your trip repots are the best! Please continue regardless of what you percieve as the response from the ST community. If you don't, this site will degenerate into a real "Putzfest"!!!
Thanks
Cracko
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 19, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
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And yet, and yet...Ed's trip report got about seventeen responses in twice the time it tooks his report on trip reports to get almost four times as many. If, as some have said, we like talking about climbing as much as climbing, than do we also like talking about talking about climbing better as much as talking about climbing?
I wonder if, for some reason, trip reports induce an unaccustomed civility that actually restricts others to laudatory comments on the original post. Perhaps the knowledge that the reporter invested real time and effort in their report, rather than, say, reeling it off in a drunken stupor, stimulates a respectful reticence in readers.
I'm not suggesting that the apparently shuttered Gates of Flame should be opened for TR's, but surely we might interact with the orginal post in various ways that take nothing from the original work and yet build on it, rather than just praising it. Or is there an unstated agreement that the OP should remain the center of attention?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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for those of you who never saw this cartoon
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Yo Ed, I'll address your original question -- I for one really do like TRs in general and yours in particular, and find them much more engaging than the half-baked political opining that occupies most of ST's bandwidth these days. I read articles every day in magazines, newspapers and online that have better-informed and more articulate political discussions, from which I learn much -- but those other sources don't know anything about climbing.
F'rinstance the Ski Jump report, which you recently drew attention to -- that's a formation I always looked at and admired during my early days in the Valley, and read what little the red book had to say about it, but like most other routes I never got round to climbing it -- and would never have heard about it again, except for this forum. Cool to see it here.
But you're right too, it's hard for most of us to post something responsive (that doesn't just sound lame) about a route we haven't done, so TR authors get less reinforcement than authors of some much emptier posts.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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VIEW COUNTER!!! lots of other forums use them..tracks interest
just a bump for this idea posted by Dave upthread
I'm a big FAn of trip reports! read almost all.. Porcelain Wall was a huge winner
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Nohea
Trad climber
Aiea,Hi
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Hell I am in. TR's rock. I live in the middle of the sea. I love the 30 days a year I get waking up and seeing mountains.
It is like the difference between eating fried food or eating sushi.
After eating fried food and replying to some OT thread I feel greasy.
After eating Sushi and replying to a TR "Beautiful climb you guys" I feel clean and eager to climb.
Aloha,
wil
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I've always enjoyed writing, but basically felt no motivation or outlet for the ~15 years between leaving high school and starting to post up here. I do have a fantasy of being able to find my TRs here someday and use it as a form of diary... I'm too lazy for a real diary or even a personal blog just for my own viewership.
I was more or less self-taught and socially unconnected when I got into climbing (well, I tapped my normal friend circles and dragged them into it, with me being slightly less ignorant than they), so had no sense of climbing history or lore, and frankly no interest in it. Over the last few years because of supertopo, that appreciation has grown in me as a result of reading so many stories and trip reports. I used to see climbing as something to be enjoyed in the moment and then gone, and I eschewed climbing magazines the same way I avoid watching sports on TV. Now I consider it more like a lifestyle thing, a virtual culture and social circle, enriching my life beyond the limited time I have on the rock. I feel connected to something greater than myself, and isn't that something we all enjoy?
And, I'm crossing a cool threshold where the relationships and community formed in this virtual world are having a tangible impact on my real-life climbing opportunities and extensions of my real-life social circles. Just amazing to see the societal and cultural evolution that the Internet enables. How else could I find so many offwidth freaks? Just statistically improbable.
In terms of TRs and stories... I love reading 'em. The most frequency of laughing in my life is from reading stuff here, whether it's a funny TR or just a classic one-liner in the midst of a ho-hum exchange. Sometimes I catch myself snickering and snorting too loudly in my little work cubicle.
I was strongly motivated first by reading Largo's stories in his Climbing Anchors book, BIMD (back in my day) mid 90s Joshua Tree. Reading about Tobin Sorenson's screamer falls was about the funniest damn thing I ever read and definitely sparked something in me to want to write more. And before I got hooked into this forum thing, I'd occasionally run across a Dingus Milktoast writeup that also served as a sort of template for my future emulation. So wanted to throw out those props and say thanks guys for writing funny stuff that also touches on some element of humanity with which we can all identify.
And since I've become hooked on supertopo, it's just a continual joy to find TR gems from wherever and whomever, read the stories and banter...
Edit: maybe I should have just written "yes Ed we like Trip Reports!" Naw, I'm a spewer and I'll embrace my spewing nature.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Just say "kudos." its honest, and it gives it a bump :D
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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I was just reminded of an ill fated climb last spring with some poor East Coast guy. I told him I wanted to climb at Pat'n'Jacks. The weather was going from bad to worse but I still racked up and started climbing. The higher I went on Knob Job, the mistier it got. Then it started raining.
So I lowered off and went back up with a second rope, and penjied over to Knurdle. I got to the bolts and set a belay and sat in the tree. As my partner was climbing up in the rain I started yelling. I was covered in ants and getting eaten. He was worried I was going to drop him. And the rock was really treacherous at that point.
We both made it to the top with all the gear recovered. We rapped off and grabbed our packs and ran to our cars. We were completely drenched and cold. Still, it was a good day...
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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"Execute Bush and Cheney?" damn, how did I miss that one. ha
I like TRs but rarely respond. Keep it up yo'all. My own trips are too lame to post. ha
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Supertopo was conceived as a way to disseminate beta. One of the things that bugs me about the Route Beta section is that you can't post or glean beta about a route that hasn't been 'Supertopoed' I think trip reports, even historic ones contain a wealth of beta-ants, snow on the approach, loose block, stay right, don't mix grain and grape, etc- and change the way some of us approach climbing.
I don't climb enough these days to worry too much about tainting the onsight. I'd rather minimize my commute and approach, show up with the right gear, maximize my crag time and know which snow bank to stash the beer in.
I've looked up at Elevator Shaft hundreds of times with nothing but contempt and revulsion. Reading your report Ed, I was feeling same until I came across a line about belaying in the sun. I scrolled back to top reread the post and now it's on my hit list (when is it scheduled to be dry, Ed?).
Thanks, nice TR.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Mar 19, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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bump
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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Bump from an occasional TR writer who likes to share and see others' climbing photos and stories.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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TR… We went climbing yesterday after work as we often do on flex Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays or any other day that we can finagle our way out into the vertical wilderness.
I just happened to lead first, pull the ropes through, rap partially down with my camera, wait for the right lighting and catch this shot of my friend Jared.
Living on the Edge Snow Canyon UT climber Jared Lott
We also did same thing last week. By sheer coincidence I decided to rap down this route with my camera and wait for just the right lighting to catch another surprised climber.
Petting the Pussycat Cougar Cliffs UT
Strange coincidence?... You decide.
(-;
I do enjoy TR’s though so keep posting ‘em up!
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Hey Double D, I love a shot with both the climber and the belayer in them, something that tells the story of the connection and dynamic between the two, so that second one is a real winner. Great light on the first too.
Oh, and it seems like across the spectrum of climbing websites, TR's are pretty much the #1 thing people appreciate, though for me, the best thing about the Taco is the first hand reports of historic ascents by the folks who did them. That kind of living history stuff just isn't found anywhere else in anything like the quality and variety displayed here.
Politics and squabbling is seriously overstocked on the interweb, so I've got no patience for it on ST.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Mar 19, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Love the rock especially in that first photo - I can *feel* it just by looking at your photos! Cool. Thanks.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 19, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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The thing is, TR's are a different genre of post from those that involve discussion or contention. They will never be able to compete in an environment in which visibility is governed by number of responses, and on Super Topo, where the scroll rate is so ridiculous, there's a decent chance that a TR, which is surely a core element in the site's raison d'etre, will disappear to the back pages before a significant number of viewers even have a chance to decide whether or not to read it.
Admonishments to users of the forum will never provide a solution to what is clearly a structural problem. With regard to this, I think Chris ultimately will have to come to terms with the fact that the site is what it is, not what it is intended to be, and without appropriate structuring, its core mission, as embodied in the very title, will suffer progressive dilution.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 20, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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Back to Ed's original point, TR may not get a lot of comments (I usually don't) but are way more entertaining that the political and ethical debates...well at least if they have pictures.
While I also like reading about the history of significant climbs most often my favorite tr's are nubee tales 'cause the experience is fresh and they are relating something that each of us had gone through but forgotten.
Just my $.02's.
PS Thanks for the compliments Crimpie and Off White. I've enjoyed shooting on the stone again and love to see others stuff around here...even if there are tons of "butt" shots to wade through.
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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digging through the stacks
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 28, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Double bump
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Nov 29, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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Thanks for the post Ed. TR's are one of the few (and lately, only) reasons I get on this thing, mainly as a source of information to those places where little or no information exists. Better then a guide book. The views count is usually many times higher then the comments. I view just about all of the TR's (yours even when they're on some obscure choss pile) unless the places are already written up or that I know. I post TR's to hopefully give useful information more then anything else. Otherwise, this site usually consists of off-topic crap from the same 28 posters.............
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Nov 29, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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Good post Ed. TR's are the best. It is frustrating to see them fade away so quickly.
A Cali TR will almost always get more attention around here. It seems counter intuitive, since you would think Cali climbers would want to see and comment on stuff from outside their region.
Ed, I can't recall you ever posting to one of my TR's. I post to almost every TR, even if I don't have much to add. I just want the author to know that I appreciate their effort and give it a bump back to the front page. I even want the n00bs to have some encouragement.
Keep 'em coming any way we can.
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Ferretlegger
Trad climber
san Jose, CA
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Nov 29, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
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Hi Ed,
I read all the trip reports, but rarely reply. It is mostly because I do not have much to say. I love to hear about people's adventures and they encourage me to get my butt out the door and have some of my own. I hope that people understand that trip reports are highly leveraged- probably read by 100 or more for each reply. This forum has a LOT of lurkers like me who value it highly but don't often get involved with the arguments.
Keep up the good work!!
All the best,
Michael
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