Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2006 - 11:11am PT
|
So my partner and I came across an ethical dilemma a week ago. We were climbing Reanimator and on the 5th pitch there was one rusty blade, and one orange alien in a flake that would have broken should I fall on it, then about 6 fixed heads before some A3+ hooking and 3 rivits before another "reachy hook".
After breaking off the only viable hook placement I found on the last move of the A3+ hooking before the 3 rivits I whipped onto 2 equalized heads that the party before us bailed off of (evidenced by a locking biner on them and biners on all stations below that). I then hooked as high as I could that the remaining features could take, cheater sticked to the first rivit, then got to the third rivit.
The "reachy hook" move above however, HAD COMPLETELY BROKEN OFF. There was about a 4"x10" dirt mark in a grove above the rivit about where a reachy hook move would be. I tried to cheater stick past all of it, but could not get a biner in the loop of the #1 head up there. So now came the time to make a decision. We only had 2 bolts with us, they were 3/8". Not the kind of stuff that belongs on that route, but we brought them to beef up belays should that be needed.
We had 3 options:
1) Drill a bat hook or two: It was a bit overhanging, and I don't believe in bat hooks holes, especially on a trade route like that.
2) Drill and place a 3/8" bolt on a route that was done in the 1990's by a very VOCAL first ascentionist who is still actively climbing and putting up hard routes.
3) Bail.
We bailed. It was very easy to do (2 raps), I later found out we were the 4th party to do so, and the party before me who bailed has done much harder routes than I have, and I didn't feel right drilling on that route.
So my question to you is:
Should we have placed that bolt? Sure we should have had rivits, but we didn't. Something will have to be drilled up there to pass that point. Although I have never placed a bolt, that route was well within our abilities (i.e. We were not in over our head) and would have done my best to put in a good bolt, then would have written about it on here to see if it should be chopped.
Had this been 15-20 pitches up on El Cap on the three routes I have done (NA, TT, Zod) can assure you that we would NOT have bailed, but instead placed the bolt.
So in a situation like this, What Would Grossman Do?
What would YOU do?
Respectfully,
Addiroids
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
IMO:
For one, not taking anything smaller than a 3/8" bolt is pretty poor prep. Rivets come out all the time.... Planning to beef belays is fine and dandy, but it is more likely that a blown bathook or flattened rivet will be the reason for drilling.
Hooking features come off too. You guys should have had some sort of plan for this eventuality besides rapping off.
On to the dilema:
What I would have done, (of course this takes in to account that hook move is really gone, there are no others, and NO OTHER WAY to get past the section) is drill a bat hook hole with the fat 3/8 and very shallow. (since I would have only had 3/8" drill) Then when I got down, let everyone know that that spot is going to need a rivet and spread the word so the next guys up there can make it good in the same spot with a rivet.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Me
I would have blasted that big ass 3/8 bolt in there and kept on going. I would have said shove it up your hypocritically asses if someone took me up on it.
Well there goes the Evangelist church and preachers of Rock .......
|
|
tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
If you're talking about these heads, I think I was the first to bail off them this fall. I didn't get above the second hook move as my ropes and aiders were blowing sideways and twisting, and I developed an attitude.
The second time I lowered off I replaced this RunnerOfDeath® with a RealRunner®.
|
|
Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
|
|
I'm one of the four parties that bailed off of reanimator at the point where the feature was gone.
The party before me, 3 Sweeds, pulled off a block, with the leader taking quite a whip and came down when they couldn't get thru. I am pretty sure this was the "Reachy Hook" though the hooking just before that also showed a dirt patch and some drilled hooks. I did not bring the topo on the pitch so I can't be sure.
I had machine head rivits, 1/4 inch bolts and a coupla 3/8ths but didn't place them. Mainly, I thought someone else might have the balls to get thru it on bat hooks, but I didn't b/c of the overhang and and fall potential (onto a slab-out), so I came down.
I don't want to be the moron that has to live with putting rivits on someone elses route where a better climber could have climbed it, well, better.
Seems to me like machine head rivits would be in keeping with the "spirit" of the route, but as it is in the middle of one of the hooking cruxes, perhaps a drilled hook is more in keeping with the "spirit" of the pitch?
That said, It's Klaus and Walt's FA, so maybe Klaus can chime in with an opinion.
-Kate.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Oh? hehehe
Klaus and Walt's route? Well Walt blasted in 4 anchor bolts on one of my FA, that didn't have any there. Not that I ever gave a sh#t.
So the church of Evangelicalism of rock is true, hehehe
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
Why would SG have anything to do with this? It's not his route. He has only posted a handfull of times. There are plenty of guys that climb harder that post regularly, including klaus, who was part of the FA.
Regardless, without SG being here, he'd probably only say "Sack up!"
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
fwiw, Reanimator was put up by Klaus and Walt Shipley. Not Steve Grossman.
ask Klaus.
(edit) ooops, I repeated what was stated above.
|
|
addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
|
RE: STEVE GROSSMAN
Yes, I know Kohl and Shipley put up the first ascent, but I figured since Grossman chose to call out Ammon on HIS ethical purity for nailing a blade on a nailing route in Zion instead of going for the magical blind nut placement around a corner that was only discovered recently on the first clean ascent, he would probably have something to say about this situation too. I don't know if Grossman has climbed Reanimator, but that makes this all the more applicable since he chose to give Ammon sh#t about a route HE HAS NOT CLIMBED, he for sure wouldn't mind giving us sh#t if I had placed that bolt.
Stevie --> unless you have climbed the route in question, you have NO SAY in what happens on that route.
Thanks to the previous poster for pointing out to me what we already knew by looking in the back of the guidebook before doing the route, and for not getting the attempt at humor.
The reason we bailed and did not place the bolt was very much in-part based on the fact that Kohl is still actively climbing. I hold the style of the first ascent in high regard and if he didn't place a bolt there, "we ain't shit" and didn't think we should be adding bolts to his route (and I don't think bat hooks holes are a legit form of climbing). Sure we may have been ill-prepared as Russ pointed out (and I partly agree) but in my opinion, once you drill a hole, use whatever is the safest form of modern protection to fill it with (i.e. a 3/8" bolt). Anything else is over-inflation of the difficulty.
Paul
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
"but I figured since Grossman chose to call out Ammon on HIS ethical purity for nailing a blade on a nailing route in Zion instead of going for the magical blind nut placement around a corner that was only discovered recently on the first clean ascent, he would probably have something to say about this situation too."
I got it, dude... That's why I said, "he'd probably only say "Sack up!"
After telling Ammon to "Sack up", well, then, what else can you say to anyone else?
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
I think it is repectable that you bailed instead of altering the route.
at the same time I think if it's obvoius natural features actively depart from the wall after the FA then it's ok to add a rivet or bathook to the climb to make it go, as a last resort. if there is nothing to hook, then likely the FA would have placed something, right?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Echo what Russ said, but if it was only two raps to the ground, why didn't you get the necessary gear and go back up there? You could've easily hit the cybercafe and contacted Klaus for permission if you deemed that necessary.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
I have not done the route but a good friend of mine soloed it a couple of seasons ago and it sounds like a pretty wild outing by his account. Regarding your predicament, if the feature in question is gone, leaving nothing usable, the slate is blank as far as I'm concerned. A drilled placement of some sort is in order to allow the route to be climbable.
Replacing a blown placement with a 5/16 x 3/4" stainless machinehead is really the best option to restore the climbability of the route and not diminish the comittment. Machineheads, if properly placed, have reasonable service life but generally cannot be relied upon to hold lengthy falls due to rivet hanger cable failure.
Beyond that, the question of whether the hole is half empty or half full resides as always with the individual climber. An argument can be made that a drilled hook hole would more closely resemble the missing placement. My personal ethic says you fill what you drill and don't enhance, so I would opt for a rivet. Every situation is different and the important thing is to make a good decision.
You guys weren't set up for rivet replacement and didn't feel good about tossing in a big hole or even bigger piece of steel in the middle of a proud route. No regrets, the route will be there.
|
|
Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
|
|
I remember that fifth pitch, the hooking section that is marked "A3+ hooks" in the book was slightly loose when we did the route in 2003 (it was not loose in -02, the first time I climbed that particular pitch).
It is possible to hook right, maybe five feet or so, and then travers back left to the rivets, I did that because I didn't see the first rivet until I was high and way to the right of it.
I thought the hooking on this pitch was as hard as anything I have done on El Cap (ZM and such)
If there is NO other way to get thru, I would have drilled a BAT hole and then other parties that will follow can easily place a rivet in that hole if it wears out.
This route felt to me way harder than what the grade in the book suggests, way way way harder than anything on routes like Zod and TT and Mescal and Shield for an example.
Thank God you didn't place that big fat bolt right in the middle of that pitch!
peace
|
|
addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2006 - 10:40am PT
|
Well it seems like we made the right decision.
Mimi, it was 2 raps to the ledge on 1, but another rope to the ground down some 120 feet of 5.8. We only had 2 ropes and 100' of lowerout rope. Yeah, we could have made it, but we later found out the MS doesn't even carry rivets.
The quality of the responses on here really suprised me. I appreciate all of you taking the time to write about this and help us get in a mindset for future routes. Are rivets just simply short bolts (nut and bolt kind) from the hardware store? Sketch. I think we'll get a few, but beef up the bolt bag with some 1/4" bolts.
Thank you Klaus for chiming in. And no offense taken, we are decent climbers, but are in no way the caliber of some of you guys and gals on here. We just sit on our asses and study a lot then get on fun sh#t when we can.
I wish all of you a happy winter season. Thanks Mike for the rec about the fifi on the cheater stick. A good suggestion!!! We'd be finished with the route (with a **cheater stick noted in the mental route log) if we had done that.
But Kohl, you put up a great route, and we just didn't wanna f*#k it up. That 4th pitch is some insane sh#t climbing that loose "V" of rock that is about to come out!!!
Ohh well, we had fun, and we'll be back with the proper abilities. Maybe this winter.
Respectfully to all,
Paul
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
"What would Walt do?"
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Deuce, you KNOW what Walt would do.
Once the modulation got to the proper frequency, he'd hunker down in his slings, strap a ring angle onto his hammer, and launch with a howling aid double clutch to wherever the next placement was last reported to be seen. Once a beserker, always a beserker. LOL! One thing's for sure, he wouldn't have stood around too long pondering. We miss you Walt.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
Replacing a blown placement with a 5/16 x 3/4" stainless machinehead is really the best option to restore the climbability of the route and not diminish the comittment. Machineheads, if properly placed, have reasonable service life but generally cannot be relied upon to hold lengthy falls due to rivet hanger cable failure.
Why is this is a better option than a 1/4" rawl buttonhead (split shaft)? Seems like for the long term viability of the placement the rawl would be much easier to remove and replace in the same hole if needed. Too bomber?
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
That's right Mimi, then best of all, there would be outrageously excellent entertainment at the Deli when Walt would relive the moment in all its passion and glory!
Sure do miss that man's energy.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Right on!
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
Bump- because this was the last post on the 1st page of results.
Also, any thoughts on Grade 5 vs. stainless machinehead rivets?
Replacing a blown placement with a 5/16 x 3/4" stainless machinehead is really the best option to restore the climbability of the route and not diminish the comittment. Machineheads, if properly placed, have reasonable service life but generally cannot be relied upon to hold lengthy falls due to rivet hanger cable failure.
Why is this is a better option than a 1/4" rawl buttonhead (split shaft)? Seems like for the long term viability of the placement the rawl would be much easier to remove and replace in the same hole if needed. Too bomber?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Fet
I agree with you. There's no difference between the bolt sizes except the brains of the fools who discriminate that for a rivet/bolt ladder they have to be a certain way.
I remember we used whatever was the cheapest or whatever was laying around to use for bolt ladders figuring later people would beef them up and make them more robust.
Aid climbing is such an inflated ego trip by some.
Flame away as I don't give a sh#t about all these ego maniacs and their screwed up idiotic bolt and rivet philosophy's.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
But Werner?! Doesn't the larger quandry of the hole being half full or half empty intrigue you anymore? You know, the ol' yin yang thang.
You know it matters to our pea-sized brains. Cut us some slack would ya.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Dude, is that some kind of fishing tackle item? Or are you just in love with old school dowels?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
That's a dumb ass way of doing it, fixed cables. They wear out so quickly and then you end up with the same time bomb scenario you get with fixed heads.
Sh#t ???????? Like WTF man?
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I think Klaus was kidding and showing us a great example of serious mank.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Damn Mimi, you're right as usual .........
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Yes Werner, Klaus just trolled you.
It's OK bro, happens to all of us.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Werner, promise me you'll always be my friend (and my brother).
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Hahaha yeah Klaus has trolled me too many times to count. I'm a sorry ass sucker!
Mimi you are an eternal friend always ........
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
Klaus, don't forget the technique of applying a good sharp chisel to blank rock to make a bomber #2 head groove in a few minutes. Super bomb squad!
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I share your sentiments, Werner.
Deuce, enter and trench thy head please!
Fet, it's been brought to my attention that one reason not to place a 1/4" split shaft anymore is that you can't get them in stainless. The split shaft design, even 3/8", is flawed for climbing use because the metal gets so fatigued during fabrication and subsequent placement. Stress fracturing is a considerable problem. Mild steel bolts and chromally hangers of any kind should be right out. The closest thing that Powers/Rawl make in stainless is a bent shaft spike.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
There are plenty of examples of the technique on the boulder behind Werner's old van spot in Camp 4!
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Well, you guys are way beyond me. I would have figured that a bat hook was less intrusive and damaging as anything permanent. If you are going to stick metal in there, whats wrong with a buttonhead? I used to think those were pretty damn good.
Now you are saying that bolts are too good. OK
But bat hooks are artificial difficulty. OK
But a piece of mank that may fail in 2 plus years is ok. Refferring to klaus pic of the machine head with a wire thingy... WHAT?
Sorry, I just dont get it.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
No, you've been trolled.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
Klaus: using 1/16" cable is like having nubian fur on yer balls..... nice and all, but it ain't full on wool... drop the size to 3/64ths and you'll be all set.
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
drilling is drilling, so place a bolt make it big, aid climbing is a contrived sport anyway. Don't take that sh#t so seriously, I wish you would have slammed in the steel.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
EK...trolling? I think not. Deadly serious! You see the whole point of establishing a difficult aid testpiece is not to make the route repeatable but rather the opposite. Way more proud to have potential suitors bail on your opus than succeed. Besides FA's are not a service for " the masses " but a personal experience...you know man vs stone...test your mettle kind of quest. Externalities such as popularity,hardware quality and bomber belays merely clutter the task @ hand and diminish the pucker factor sought by the intrepid aid warrior in his glorious endeavor!
|
|
Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
|
|
Hey Klaus:
Pierre climbed the route in 2003 and is refering to the state of the A3+ hooking at that time, and presently. You can still hook left on a little bit-o-nothin.
The new rockfall that Paul and I are talking about occurred just a few weeks ago from a different party, where the "reachy hook" block was accidentally removed from the climb. A friend of mine was on Skull Queen at the time, saw the rockfall, and spoke with the party after they bailed.
Anyway, something will probably have to be done where the "reachy hook" used to be.
-Kate.
|
|
Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
|
|
Yes Kate, the whole A3+ hooking section was loose the second time I climbed it, I was surprised to find out because the previous year it seemed solid enough.
As far as I can understand; the A3+ section is still loose but has not fallen off yet (the picture with the two equlized heads looks like this section), below the first rivet there is a rock scar and missing features? And new drilled hooks?
Then the route climbs three rivets and the reachy hook move is also gone, that move is a little bit below a small roof and a right facing copperhead corner?
What I was saying in my previous post was that I accidently climbed past the first rivet (didn't have a topo) by hooking, I did a travers to the right - from the A3+ hooking past the first rivet and up to the right maybe five feet and the traversed back left to the rivets once I spotted them (I was worried that I could hit the slab below so I was happy to find the rivets).
I do not think that you can hook out right at the "reachy hook" move and pass that section...
Klaus; maybe I was high - maybe I wasn't, can't remember details like that ;)
I really like this route, especially the hanging curtain, thanks for putting it up - good work man! It states in the topo that rivets were added on pitch 7 - how many did you guys place on that pitch during your climb? Just curious...
peace
(p.s the belay bolts on the route were not very good in -02/03)
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
Lets be clear. No body really puts up a route.. The route is already there, just somebody goes up sticks some metal into it, so you can put sh#t metal or good metal. My question is are ya cheap or just plain stupid. Have fun putting the worst kind of rivet, bolt, drilled hole, what ever you can find in yosemite's fantastic granite. I hope this allows you to prove something to your self , your buddies, and the masses. Go on make a statement, wow your so important if you put some schwag metal in over a longer harder to place, longer lasting, reliable piece. Gee I sure look up to schwag metal boys. Perhaps in the future you could epoxy flattened copper heads onto the rock, sweet sh#t the raaadddddd statement you would be making then, wowzers. What would people say then, you ssooooo hhaaarrrdddd.
|
|
Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
|
|
Hey Pierre -
Yeah, I think that some of the loose A3+ hooking has also come off very recently, as there was fresh dirt/obvious scar from a section being pulled off and some drilled-out spots from the previous party, (I think). The dirt scar in the A3+ hooking was very fresh, based on this I kinda think they or another very recent party pulled this in additoin to the reachy hook.
The real problem is higer, though, where there used to be a "reachy hook) there is no way around, far as I can tell.
The two heads in the pic are at the beginning of the "loose A3+" (but in solid rock) which moves up and right to the first rivit. These two equalized heads are what the prior party, myself, and addiroids & team rapped from. They are apparently pretty solid. ;)
-Kate.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
Clusterbomb: work on the trolling.....
(here is where you come back big and say "I ain't trolling and all you aid guys are blowhard pussies" or something. Then threaten a chopping spree.)
|
|
bspisak
climber
|
|
Sounds like Pierre did the F/A of this new blank section. Therefore, everyone quit your whining, suck it up and hook out right. ;-)
|
|
addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
|
dipsack:
The blown hook area is ABOVE the place that Pierre was referring to. He did the hooking out right to get to the three rivets, but it's after the third rivet that stuff is missing (as far as I could see).
and KATE:
"The heads are 'apparently pretty solid'".
Ohh, is that evidenced by the fact that more than one person whipped onto them? :) Yeah, they held my fat butt but then again, I am fairly light compared to you. But that was on a deployed screamer. After that fall I made it to the third rivet and not being able to pass the blank section in question bailed from two equalized rivets. And yes, the area where the heads in the picture are is solid, it's like 3 feet past that that it is breaking off.
And I hope you got the humor in saying that I am "light-duty" compared to ya, not a weight comparison :)
|
|
chez
Social climber
chicago ill
|
|
Clustafairy,
You've obviously been drilled by bad metal!
Chez
|
|
pyro
Social climber
I'm not telling,
|
|
what a waste of time!
|
|
The Dane M
Big Wall climber
Denmark
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2007 - 06:03am PT
|
And now I found the right place to post it:
A friend read about Re-animator in here. And I realized, I better tell the story:
I am the one, who pulled of the reachy hook on Re-Animators 5. pitch.
Sorry, I must be to fat!
In mid-october three Danes were in the Valley. We had 2 1/2 weeks of vacation, so we wanted to do some big Walls. We cruised Mescalito in our usual slow pace and wanted another Wall before we had to work again. The two of us had been in the Valley before (And are even on a photo in the latest Super Topo guide, P.O. Wall, thanks).
THE STORY:
I had placed a big fish-hook on top of the feature and was slowly climbing up my aiders. When my face was in front of the hook the feature I was hooking gave away. I fell and broke the wire around the first rivet. I flipped head down and luckily the second rivet and wire stoped my fall 20 feet down. My elbow got a blow, but was working. I pulled my self together and went back up. I looked for other possibilities, but there were non. I called down for the 6 mm drill (little bit smaller than 1/4"). I then drilled a hole an placed my Talon. I still could not reach the first head in the line, so I drilled another bat hook. From the last bat hook I could reach the head. I kept going up the head corner and placed the one bomber nut that pitch have got. I reached the anker.
At this point my two friends started talking about retreating. I had been climbing, falling, drilling on the pitch for 5 hours, and they were tired and most of all lost motivation. We had only had one day of rest since we climbed Mescalito. We agreed and went down.
But:
 I did NOT break or drill any part of the A3+ hooking. It was scetchy but do-able.
I did pull of the reachy hook feature.
I did PASS it afterwards, on two bat-hooks. Look and you will find them.
Maybe a better climber could have placed only one bathook, but I hope you will forgive me placing two ;-)
One question:
Is that A3 climbing or A4?
One bomber placement in 50 meters.
Climb well
Martin
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2007 - 01:29pm PT
|
The pitch has only one piece that would hold a fall??? I highly doubt that on that route after all these ascents...
|
|
The Dane M
Big Wall climber
Denmark
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
|
Well no, the rivets are bombers as well, if you use the right kind of rivet hanger ;-)
I riped the wire on the first one, but luckily the next one was a little bit different. And that one held my 20 foot fall, so the rivets are bomber, if you use the right hangers.
Some of the heads were also quite big, but I would not like to fall in them.
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2007 - 11:42pm PT
|
so what happens now!
|
|
The Dane M
Big Wall climber
Denmark
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
|
Well, somebody will climb it!!!
I passed it, and I am not that good.
But remember keyholehangers or other solid rivetgear, if you want more than one bomber placment on that pitch.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!