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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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Let's please consolidate our political shitposting into one thread like the good ol' days. The topics are largely redundant and repetitive and there's no reason to torture everyone else with them. When one day we begin having in depth, constructive and collegial discussions maybe we can multi-thread without fear but as it is we are just gong to get nuked by Mac's Minions.
Existing (and hopefully soon to die) political threads:
Ready for Donald?
Ready for Hillary?
I'm so proud of my President
Ready for Bernie?
Ready for Cruz?
The Presidential Election:
Always at the top of everyone's attention (warranted or not) and the most covered by media. The contenders:
Republicans:
Ben Carson
Donald Trump
Marco Rubio
Carly Fiorina
John Kasich
Jeb Bush
Ted Cruz
Chris Christie
Rick Santorum
Mike Huckaby
Rand Paul
Bobby Jindal
George Pataki
Also Rans:
Rick "Oops" Perry - Governor of Texas, bespectacled intellectual...and..what was that third thing?
Scott "Union Buster" Walker - Gatekeeper to the Second Gilded Age
Democrats:
Hillary Clinton
Bernard "Bernie" Sanders
Martin O'Malley
Also Rans:
Jim "I killed a guy in 'Nam" Webb - ran out of time
Lincoln "Goofy Ass Grin" Chaffee - not the only farrier to not become President
Debates:
GOP Debate: Fox Business, November 10, Wisconsin
DNC Debate: CBS, November 14, Iowa
GOP Debate: CNN, December 2015, Nevada
DNC Debate: ABC, December 19, New Hampshire
GOP Debate: Fox News, January 2016, Iowa
DNC Debate: NBC, January 17, NBC
GOP Debate: ABC News, February 2016, New Hampshire
GOP Debate: CBS News, February 2016, South Carolina
GOP Debate: NBC/Telemundo, February 2016, Florida
July 18, 2016: RNC begins in Cleveland
July 25, 2016: DNC begins in Philadelphia
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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I support this action.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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John M posted I believe that the issue with too big to fail is that we have allowed institutions to get so big that if they fail, they can bring down the nations economy with drastic effect. I believe it was the right idea to save those companies because if we didn't, we would have entered a depression, which would have been even more costly. Instead, once we saved them, then we need to start figuring out how to limit their size so that they aren't anymore "too big to fail". We did that in part with the laws on monopolies. Now we need the next level.
There is a legitimate debate here on exactly how these things should be handled. Economic liberals are likely to echo your sentiments: don't let financial institutions become so big they put our whole economy at risk. Economic conservatives are more likely to say "let them get as big as they want their size will self-regulate when they realize that nobody is coming to save them when they fail." I'm inclined to say a little of each is necessary. Monopoly busting is a pretty blunt tool and in a lot of cases wouldn't be necessary if the government would stop approving various mega-mergers or if they would have put enforcement teeth into bills that gave away huge amounts of money to either the banks or telecommunication companies (back in the '90s.)
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dirtbag
climber
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So, how about that Dennis Hastert fella?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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GOP Debate: Fox Business, November 9, Wisconsin
I believe it's Nov 10.
Susan
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Is anyone here really voting for Carson? Dude is seriously whacked.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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You have to admire that Hillary has eliminated 3/5 of her opponents, while Bush has only gotten rid of 2/18.
Looks like Lindsay Graham (who you did not list) and Pataki are about to bite the dust, courtesy of FOX.
Carson gone within the month. He will not withstand Stolen Valor.
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John M
climber
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He is still in it folks. Sounds plausible.
but about that grain..
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Carson, whose steady rise to the top of presidential primary polls has started to draw media scrutiny his way, is depending on a loose interpretation of the word "scholarship." There is no tuition at West Point; there is no equivalent of a "scholarship" as generally understood at most universities. In his memoir "Gifted Hands" and in anecdotes about the offer, Carson never says that he "applied," only that some "scholarship" came his way after a meeting with Westmoreland and "congressional medal winners."
"I was offered a full scholarship to West Point," Carson wrote. "I didn't refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn't where I saw myself going. As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn't really tempted. The scholarship would have obligated me to spend four years in military service after I finished college, precluding my chances to go on to medical school."
So he was offered s "scholarship" which did not exist, from someone who was not authorized or had the power to extend one.
This is a political parsing of words-----however it is NOT to those I know in the military.
So can anyone who went to Yale equally claim that they were "offered" a military scholarship, because they obviously "could" have gone there???
What would be the point of such a claim, other than to endear oneself to the military?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Weather Carson is in or not, his polling numbers among republican voters totally undermines the obsessive pulling of the race card by democrat partisans.
Intellectual honesty is never a strong suit with partisans.
Even John Stewart had a segment on the race card being overdrawn.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dr M is just upset the darkie is a famous neurosurgeon and he isn't.
All he ever said is his ROTC adviser was encouraging him to go for an appointment and it wasn't the direction he wanted to go.
Yes he has some oddball opinions on ancient history, but at least he doesn't believe it the economic impossibilities posited by Saddlebags and Barney.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Hey, the POTUS is Commander In Chief, not the Head Archaeologist. Besides,
filling the pyramids with grain would be a good move to get ready for the
Apocalypse!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Yeah, but I want my Commander in Chief to actually have a grasp of reality. If Carson can't understand the pyramids are actually big piles of large stones he's not my man, especially because the POTUS has his proverbial middle finger on the 'button'. No, a believer in the rapture is not my top choice as someone who has the power to destroy the world. He's got to be on drugs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Ready for Rubio? He's next to rise.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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^^^
Fakt!
And he just might get the nod, too...
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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No, a believer in the rapture is not my top choice as someone who has the power to destroy the world. He's got to be on drugs.
And yet Bachman ran for president once. She has predicted the end of days under Obama's watch. No need for the election.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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This thread is never gonna work for its intended purpose. You can't herd the ST cats into one thread.
Valiant effort, though. Kudos for that, but it's been tried.
BTW, guns are awesome! There ought to be a law requiring every resident of the USA to open carry at all times, even in bed. Open-carry is hard in bed, so many will resist. But with a LAW, we can make it happen!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Hope springs eternal, madbolter.
All it takes is a little personal discipline, and it would work!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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The republican primary is very instructive.
I learned that the pyramid builders were the crappest planners in history. They built a 35 acre structure that has the biggest storage room in it 27'x57' with an average height of 7' or so. That pencils out to about 326-327 cubic meters for the largest room.
The volume of the great pyramid is around 2,600,000 cubic meters, and dr. Ben wants us to believe it was built as a granary of about 326 cubic meters in storage volume.
Has to qualify as the most inefficient storage structure in human history.
.00125 % of its volume is storage. Not only that, the granary planners decided the storage room needed a 400' thick roof.
The reputed architect, Hemiunu, must have been a dunce as a designer, while at the same time being a great con man.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Wow Lorenzo, there are a lot of objective facts in your post. Unfortunately that means nothing to conservative ideologs, that believe faith trumps reality. God help us if anyone that deluded gets into a position of power.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sure I'll cut those freaks apart at the head
#toupee+toupoo 2016
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WBraun
climber
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If Carson can't understand the pyramids are actually big piles of large stones he's not my man,
You stoopid Americans
The pyramids are made out of styrofoam and put in place by only a few dudes.
Then one dude chanted a special mantra and bingo all the styrofoam turned into stone .......
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Brilliant!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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If you've been there and have any sense of smell you'd know they are
reconstituted camel turds.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Apocalypse?
Now this dude initiated an Apocalypse for 11 Taliban in one day...
In 2010, Helmand Province Afghanistan, SSgt Clifford Wooldridge, then a Cpl rushed alone with his 249 across the open to sever a Talib hasty retreat following an ambush. He cut off 15, killed 8, and then heard frantic voices from behind an adjacent wall and rushed in, alone. Cpl Wooldridge came face to face with two Taliban armed with grenades, RPG's and machine guns, then killed them.
As he crouched back behind the wall to reload, he saw the barrel of an enemy machine gun appear from around the wall. Without hesitation, he dropped his empty weapon and seized the machine gun barrel. He overwhelmed the enemy fighter in hand-to-hand combat, took the machine gun being held by the Taliban fighter, and beat him to f*#king death with it.
Cpl Wooldridge was awarded the Navy Cross for his actions during this engagement, an award, second only to the Medal of Honor.
I honestly do not believe he will be voting for Hildabeast NOR Berning Man. Oh, and I am certain that he owns several guns as well.
Carry on...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Well, Chief,
A chance to depart from your usual celebration of killing and trolling.....
What is your take on Carson's attempt to dress himself in the military.
You might actually have some credibility on this.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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My take is that Politico totally "fabricated" this BS and has since been back tracking the entire day on their initial story, big time.
Would not be a bit surprised if Politico quietly comes out sometime this weekend with an "Ooops! We fked up royally" story.
But as usual KENM, you will run with any propaganda that fits your ideology and totally discount anything that is presented against anyone you believe is the right individual to be the POTUS.
Typical.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Weather Carson is in or not, his polling numbers among republican voters totally undermines the obsessive pulling of the race card by democrat partisans.
Wow, I've not seen that. Wrong, if so.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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You sell Drugs, Norton??
You must seeing as you're packing 24/7 in order to protect that high cash yielding business of yours. You closet NRA Member you.
And you claim to be a repug? You're probably rooting for Berning Man. Toooo funneeeeeeeeee!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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YO JB^^^^^^^
Talk about good sex, there's nothing like the person you prefer to chew on, pointing a gun in your face.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Well, Chief, I guess you will have no problem, the next time you trot out your credentials in the military, with the rest of posting "that may be fine, but I was offered a scholarship to Annapolis, so what the hell do you know?"
If Carson HAD gone to Annapolis, he would have learned:
"Honor Oath: We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. "
It's clear that oath never applied to enlisted men and women, I guess.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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It's clear that oath never applied to enlisted men and women, I guess.
That is because we "enlisted men and women" were far too busy bleeding and making them Bad Guys bleed even more while far too many (NOT all mind you) "Annapolis" boys were too worried about not getting caught cheating and covering their azzes. Fact.
And those that I indicated as NOT above, well they soon realized what the reality of doing the deed is about. They learned that very quickly from their SNCO's. The True Leaders of the Pack. Any Senior Officer of Annapolis, West Point or AF Academy background will tell you that. Fact.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I wonder if they will tell me that, if they only got offered a scholarship to the Academies.......
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WBraun
climber
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yeah just go and brainwash yourself with academics while the real men fight and you hide in your academic bunker shouting stoopid slogans at the real warriors ......
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Annapolis" boys were too worried about not getting caught cheating and covering their azzes. Fact.
As the sister, and the daughter, of "Annapolis boys" this comment disgusts me.
Susan
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Damn. Nice try but the Chief has taken over again with his serial posting bullsh#t. This thread is now officially ruined. Hey Chief, how about just shutting the f*#k up for a change? We all know you are not amenable to facts or reason, although you expect all of us to be malleable although most of the bullshit you post is not facts or reason, but just bullsh#t. Chief, do you ever sleep? Seriously, just stop, it's gotten old and you really ruin it for others. Maybe let others have their point of view without serial posting insults and crap against those who think other than you. Damn.
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dindolino32
climber
san francisco
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GO BERNIE! Only person that cares about others instead of himself.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Pretty hilarious how you and others here KEN M will bight and run on a semantics error by Carson regarding the difference between a scholarship and appointment to West Point and demand that he be banished forever for doing so.
Yet you have the lead candidate on the DEM side making bad word choices repeatedly, basically consistently lying about her email and official communications practices, and you do not blink an eye at that.
Obviously you and the others here are NOT one bit bias. Not at all.
As the sister, and the daughter, of "Annapolis boys" this comment disgusts me.
Ah, susan, did you read the the entire post or just what YOU wanted to read.
That is because we "enlisted men and women" were far too busy bleeding and making them Bad Guys bleed even more while far too many (NOT all mind you) "Annapolis" boys were too worried about not getting caught cheating and covering their azzes. Fact.
And those that I indicated as NOT above, well they soon realized what the reality of doing the deed is about. They learned that very quickly from their SNCO's. The True Leaders of the Pack. Any Senior Officer of Annapolis, West Point or AF Academy background will tell you that. Fact.
But then selective reading does promote "disgust".
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Sorry Jim, but I can read the future of this thread. Constant repetitive posts from the Chief sucking all the air from the discussion and never, NEVER admitting that someone who disagrees with him has a valid point of view, while insisting that his view is the only valid one and all must bow to him. Sort of an ultimate ego trip or something. Really, I've seen what he does and how he does it and am frankly disgusted with the anti-American way he argues. Let others have their opinions; disagree is you must, but DON'T insist that because one disagrees with your view they have have no validity or voice or possibility of being right.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Winemaker... You are nothing but a constant whinermaker. Nothing more.
If anyone goes against the grain on this site when it comes to your sides insistent BS ideological Propaganda politard threads, it's whine time for you and the others.
Love it.
EDIT: I never said I demand/insist my opinions are right. You Whinemaker and others here that play in YOUR sandbox keep stating that.
I just post my opinions up. But those opinions obviously rub ya'll the wrong way. Imagine that....
EDIT EDIT:
Of course ANYONE that voices contrarian opinions the general tribe here must be immediately stifled and more appropriately, banned. Shut them up asap.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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while far too many (NOT all mind you) . boys
Oh, your qualifiers come through loud and clear. It's the language of a weasel.
Susan
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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I am horrified at the way a thread has derailed into the venue for an individual's ranting and raving. I've never witnessed such a selfish manifestation here at ST.
Except in pretty much every other polititard ST thread, at one point or another. Carry on, and carpe diem!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Weasel?
Hmmm.... nice Susan. Been called much worse. But then you would have first hand experience of my point regarding many Annapolis grads being a Daughter and Sister of one.
PS: Just because one wears "The Ring", don't mean they're a leader. Nor does it demand respect. I saluted and respected the insignia, not the individual nor where and how they acquired the insignia that they wear on their collar or shoulder.
EDIT:
"I am horrified at the way a [politard] thread has derailed..."
Now that is way beyond hilarious, Apogee.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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You know chief, have your opinions but don't insist I have yours. This could have been a good thread except for your dogmatic insistence that everyone think as you. As in one of the previous threads you took over, this is my last post here; I'm tired of your BS; you win. What you win I'm not sure. Just curious, but have you ever admitted to being wrong?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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You know chief, have your opinions but don't insist I have yours....have you ever admitted to being wrong
Now that is one hell of an oxymoron post.... keep em coming.
EDIT: Amazing how you NEVER make such demands for all those that you side with. Not one. And your reasoning would be, they are of course always, "right".
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Indications of any kind of dichotomy in the general ideological sense here on ST by those that believe theirs is the general consensus, is NOT allowed.
Play as the others do in this ST sand box or gtf out.... NOW!
Gee, where have I seen that staunch philosophy being played out lately outside of this website and in the real world?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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You don't get sarcasm or irony when you see it, do you?
Understandable. The interwebz is tough that way.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Indications of any kind of dichotomy in the general ideological sense here on ST by those that believe theirs is the general consensus, is NOT allowed.
So true. So reminiscent of Robespierre. He was famously a liberal and
compassionate champion of the people. However, when he achieved real power
then he found the guillotine a much better way to deal with those who dared
to disagree.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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You don't get sarcasm or irony when you see it, do you?
Bullshet Apogee. My Wife is pissed at me cus I have had to replace my keyboard several times this year from spewing my coffee and other liquids all over them.
EDIT:
Why even waste your time. Those that believe what they want to believe will disregard such facts and still call for Dr. Carson's head on a silver platter regardless the truth. And of course do what they can to totally discredit and demean the man.
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dirtbag
climber
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Interesting, Larry.
Except for the sideshow/shitshow aspect I don't really care all that much. He'll never be president.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dirtbag,
You're right, Carson will not be president, but he was a victim here.
Obama's "Dreams From My Father" is full of fabrications.
Hillary fabricates personal history.
Paul Ryan fabricates peaks he bagged.
Senators Blumenthal of Connecticut and Harkin of Iowa fabricated their war records...
(The stolen valor cases offend me most)
They're politicians, it's what they do.
Outrage is selective and dependent on one's party
All in all, not a good week for Politico or MSNBC...
And the movie "Truth" is sucking wind. (They shoulda named it Fake)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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None of the republican candidates have a chance in hell of beating Hillary...The repubs number one priority for fixing America is handing more wealth to the 1%...They have no realisitc plans on fixing America so they resort to the fox news script that mandates endless personal attacks mixed in with non-stop conspiracy theories, the meat and potato(e)s of conservative politics...The government should stop this non-sense right now and use the billions in campaign donations to start paying down the debt...quack...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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(The stolen valor cases offend me most)
It's funny, then, that you didn't see your way to mention GWB going AWOL on the national guard.
That's a gig his daddy got for him while he was CIA chief through a family friend.
He failed to report to duty between April 1972 and October of that year, and never flew until he was discharged in October 1973. As a result, he was grounded and never took the necessary retraining to fly, in violation of guard requirements.
His service record was altered for that time.
And yet one of his campaign points was his military service.
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John M
climber
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I'm on board for RJs idea.. woot woot!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Lorenzo wrote:
It's funny, then, that you didn't see your way to mention GWB going AWOL on the national guard.
(FWIW: A long ago Mexican girlfriend used to croon to me..."Oh Lorenzo").
Lorenzo,
I'm no supporter of any Bush in politics, but even Dan Rather himself described the document that the issue was based on as "Fake but accurate".
Is that your standard?
Not sure I'm a fan of Carson as president, but I like a lot of things he says which are true about the divisiveness in our culture right now.
Watch this contentious press conference from yesterday, and how he handles himself.
Check out when he questions the press on their scrutiny of Obama and the obvious double standard.
Priceless cricket chirps.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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It's funny, then, that you didn't see your way to mention GWB going AWOL on the national guard."
Or Rove's annihilation of one of his own Party members who was running against GWB....McCain....
Or Rove's annihilation of Kerry's character....
Both of these guys had extensive military service history, which is shat upon for GWB's own political interests.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Apogee,
Politics is a sewer and Rove is as slimy as Sidney Blumenthal.
Kerry's character was questioned by many veterans who were in the same place at the same time.
Kerry also threw other veteran's under the bus with false statements in the famous "Jinjus" Khan press conference, BITD.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Two prominent members of the Entertainment Community are supporting Mr Trump. It is indeed, the end of days.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Ben Carson may have fabricated a story about being the 'most honest' student while at Yale
http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/The-Wall-Street-Journal-suggests-Snowden-gave-4907250.php
"Mr. Carson writes of a Yale psychology professor who told Mr. Carson, then a junior, and the other students in the class—identified by Mr. Carson as Perceptions 301—that their final exam papers had “inadvertently burned,” requiring all 150 students to retake it. The new exam, Mr. Carson recalled in the book, was much tougher. All the students but Mr. Carson walked out.
The professor came toward me. With her was a photographer for the Yale Daily News who paused and snapped my picture,” Mr. Carson wrote. “‘A hoax,’ the teacher said. ‘We wanted to see who was the most honest student in the class.’” Mr. Carson wrote that the professor handed him a $10 bill."
What a fantasy.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Howe many hundreds of millions has Hildebeast shaken down various corporate cronies and oil rich despots for?
A darkie is off the liberal plantation.
Gasp!
He must be lynched!!!
Democrats,
Same as ever!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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When something is really easy to do,
we say "It's not brain surgery",
rather than "It's not community organizing".
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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What IS clear, is that he has made up a significant number of stories. Apparently, dreaming up these stories to enhance your biography is not brain surgery. What's more troubling is his views, however.
Hopefully, he implodes soon and a serious candidate emerges. There's too much at stake to waste time on these amateurs.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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There's too much at stake to waste time on these amateurs.
Given WBraun's response, apparently not :-)
We're all professionals at being humans. We think like humans, lie like humans, react emotionally like humans, make up false beliefs to support advantageous behaviors like humans. It's what we do - we're professionals at it. We're so good at it that we can even believe it's not true about ourselves, like it's true about other humans. Let's call each other names like humans instead :-)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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When something is really easy to do we say it's not brain surgery rather than its not community organizing.
Because it's easier to get elected president than it is to become a brain surgeon.
People say a lot of things, but our most impressive and evolutionarily significant ability is that we can convince ourselves to believe the things that we say in order to get the job done. Praise Jesus! for that.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Because it's easier to get elected president than it is to become a brain surgeon.
Uhhhh...no.
There are 210 positions open for neurosurgeons to train in the US every year.
There is ONE position for president available every 4 years.
There have been 44 Presidents IN HISTORY. there are roughly 5 times that number of neurosurgeons created EVERY YEAR.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Eric Beck wrote:
How did he ever get through medical school?
Umm, by being smarter than most of us in medicine?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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He also said his campaign had successfully dug up a photo published in Yale's student newspaper that The Wall Street Journal said it couldn't find -- and said his campaign would release it soon, verifying an anecdote about a psychology class Carson attended. He did, however, admit he and his co-author had made up the psychology class's number and name.
And so, the end begins.........
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The Progs know their "candidate" is the face of deception and dishonesty. They have lapsed into some sort of childish Psychological Projection. Then again, Progs are a study in all things Psychological/Pathological.
The Clinton money-laundering machine
No doubt some of the 30,000 e-mails Hillary deleted very likely had references to the Clinton Foundation's business, which would be illegal and a conflict of interest. Others say it is organized crime at its finest -- and we are financing it. This is a summary of how the Clinton Foundation works as a tax-free international money laundering scheme. It will probably eventually prove to be the largest political criminal enterprise in U.S. history.
This is a textbook case on how you hide foreign money sent to you and repackage it to be used for your own purposes. All tax free. Here's how it works: 1. You create a separate foreign "charity." In this case one in Canada.
2. Foreign oligarchs and governments then donate to this Canadian charity. In this case, over 1,000 did, contributing mega-millions. I'm sure they did this out of the goodness of their hearts, and expected nothing in return. (Imagine Putin's buddies waking up one morning and just deciding to send untold millions to a Canadian charity).
3. The Canadian charity then bundles these separate donations and makes a massive donation to the Clinton Foundation.
4. The Clinton Foundation and the cooperating Canadian charity claim Canadian law prohibits the identification of individual donors.
5. The Clinton Foundation then "spends" some of this money for legitimate good works programs. Unfortunately, experts believe this is on the order of 10%. Much of the balance goes to enrich the Clinton's, pay salaries to untold numbers of hangers-on, and fund lavish travel, etc. Again, virtually all tax free, which means you and I are subsidizing it.
6. The Clinton Foundation, with access to the world's best accountants, somehow fails to report much of this on their tax filings. They discover these "clerical errors" and begin the process of re-filing 5 years of tax returns.
7. Net result -- foreign money, much of it from other countries, goes into the Clinton's pockets tax-free and untraceable back to the original donor.
This is the textbook definition of "money laundering."
Oh, by the way, the Canadian "charity" includes as a principal one Frank Giustra. Google him. He is the guy who was central to the formation of Uranium One, the Canadian company that somehow acquired massive U.S. uranium interests and then sold them to an organization controlled by Russia. This transaction required U.S. State Department approval, and guess who was Secretary of State when the approval was granted?
As an aside, imagine how former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell feels. That poor schlep is in jail because he and his wife took $165,000 in gifts and loans for doing minor favors for a guy promoting a vitamin company. Not legal, but not exactly putting U.S. security at risk.
Sarcasm aside, if you're still not persuaded this was a cleverly structured way to get unidentified foreign money to the Clinton's, ask yourself this:
Why did these foreign interests funnel money through a Canadian charity?
Why not donate directly to the Clinton Foundation? Better yet, why not donate money directly to the people, organizations and countries in need?
This is the very essence of money laundering and influence peddling. Now you know why Hillary's destruction of 30,000 e-mails was a risk she was willing to take.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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No wonder TNT & HermitCrab have an interest in humor...the political party they belong to is the laughing stock of the country, if not the world. Their standard bearer is likely to be Donald Trump. Nuff said.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Yep, that's pretty much all they got, crankster. Nuthin'.
And they know it, too! So what's left?
Send stooopid emails to each other with little pictures.
Welcome President Hillary Clinton!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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John M
climber
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^^^Okay.. that was funny. hahaha good one.
still doesn't explain the grain, but never the less, funny.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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On the tarmac at Dover Hillary lied right to the face of a mother who's son's body was being unloaded in front of them about why her son died.
Then she lied to the rest of us.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Maybe this will make you feel better, TGT....
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Carson believes God created the earth in six days.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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On the tarmac at Dover Hillary lied right to the face of a mother who's son's body was being unloaded in front of them about why her son died.
Then she lied to the rest of us.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Zombie , duck-loon republican voters drool over brain surgeon Ben Carson , owned by the right-wing Zionist Putinator... Carson , after a Rush Limbaugh brain wash , will end up holding a lantern on the Putinators front lawn...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Maybe this will make you feel better, TGT....
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sempervirens
climber
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Well, Bush 1 is like 90 something and must feel his book writing days are numbered. I'd also think he is somewhat, eh, ashamed? Of Bush 2 being led like a donkey by those two f*#ks. And lastly he'd like to help Bush 3 separate himself from those ass clowns.
Is this analysis FOXworthy?
I agree on your first point. Bush Sr. has little time to set the record straight. But he could have published that info. anytime in the past 8 years. He is so well-connected that I can't imagine he makes a published statement without some plan or objective in mind. You last point is perhaps crazy-enough-to-be-correct. The Bushes are a dynasty and therefore, in my opinion, it's ridiculous to think Bush 3 can distance himself from all those ass clowns. Yeah, so ridiculous that the neo-Cons could just buy into it. Foxworthy, yeah, it is.
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Norton
Social climber
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Why do you vote for massive liars, tgt?
Why did you vote for Bush the second time after his 4000 American soldier deaths in Iraq lie?
Romney lied many times during the 2012 campaign.
Explain why you vote for liars...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Why do you pack a loaded weapon 24/7 Norton in order to protect your "High Cash Flow Business"? Are you a Drug Dealer??
Why do you claim to be a Republican Norton when all you do is entertain us all with your pathetic parroting rhetoric against any Republican that holds or has held any office?
Explain Why... Norton?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"Why do you pack a loaded weapon 24/7 Norton? "
'cause it's a Second Amendment thing, and there's some crazy ass mf'ers out there you gotta look out for. Capiche?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
'cause it's a Second Amendment thing, and there's some crazy ass mf'ers out there you gotta look out for. Capiche?
NOT according to Philo, Crankstar, Dirtbag, Gary etc etc etc....
So they according to you are totally WRONG. Correct Apogee??
BTW, this is for KEN M to read... very very carefully. Has something to do with the verbiage of "Scholarship" to West Point:
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Umm....can you provide a single post (or even better, several) that support your conclusion?
You (and the rest of the GunNutz®) have concluded that anyone who thinks ANY level of gun regulation are anti-gun, and believe all guns should be destroyed.
I doubt that's the case for most of the 'libs' you've cited. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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No problem Apo....
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
"Why do you pack a loaded weapon 24/7 Norton? "
'cause it's a Second Amendment thing, and there's some crazy ass mf'ers out there you gotta look out for. Capiche?
Or was that just more of your, "satire and humor"?
You have concluded that anyone who thinks ANY level of gun regulation are anti-gun, and believe all guns should be destroyed.
Really? Please cite any post I ever maid that stated such a thing.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Progs will do all it takes to defend the slime that lies to the mother of a dead hero to her face while lining her pockets with the cash from despots and criminals.
It's more important to them to lynch the darkie that may get in her way.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Apogee.. Have you noticed how TGT suddenly stops posting each time you post the naughty picture of Hillary..? Is he in the spank bunker..?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Study up on how the repubs took over the south.
Amazing how you skip forward a good 70 years and conveniently do not tell us why the DEMS began the KKK and the Repugs started the NRA in order to defend/protect the freed blacks from the "Lynching" Democrats. Fact is, more Blacks were lynched and tortured from 1866-1900 than at any other time. ALL under the leadership of Democrats in the KKK.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Those KKK dems switched to the repubs, Chiefy as the northern dems put pressure on the southern democrats.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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They switched well AFTER more Blacks were Lynched and Tortured than at any other time in our history under the Democrats. Where the fk were all them "Northern Dems" when all these atrocities occurred for well over 40 or so years in the South?
SHSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSH!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Glad you recognize the dems progressed and the repubs had more appeal for the racists.
Good for you Chiefy.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Dems have progressed?
Really.
Why is it then that POOR BLACKS keep voting for Democrats the past 60 or so years and most of them, are still POOR and live in a total world of oppressed and racist shet. That is of course according to many here.
Tooo Funnneeeeee! Seriously.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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You tell us, Chiefy.
Are they stupid?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Tell you what MONO... why you parroting DEM people are just a bunch of politard shet talking clowns that do nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Now go to your nightly koooooooooooombyaaaa DEM group hug meeting, Mono.
Thanks for the laugh of the day, AGAIN Mono.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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You're welcome, Chiefy.
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dirtbag
climber
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NOT according to Philo, Crankstar, Dirtbag, Gary etc etc etc....
I never said any such thing, Chief. Kindly do not put words in my mouth. Thanks.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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No one needs to lynch Carson. His batsh*t crazy beliefs stand on their own.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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I never said any such thing...
Of course you didn't. NEVER! You're welcome.
No one needs to lynch Carson. His batsh*t crazy beliefs stand on their own.
And of course Berning Man's and Hildabeasts "belief's" are ALL completely logical and totally rational.
Got it.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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I doubt Carson will ever be elected,
but he appears to be a decent, accomplished, Christian human being.
Carson, unlike the president, has not promised that the rise of the oceans would begin to slow if he's elected.
Carson, unlike Hillary, has not channeled Eleanor Roosevelt, or dodged sniper fire with a daughter in tow.
And speaking of faith based beliefs:
Some here show a faith in Bernie Sander's socialist remedies that would make Jimmy Swaggart blush.
Bernie appears to be a decent, accomplished, secular human being.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Bern's got dat youth vote
That speaks tons about his "ideas"...
The Youth Vote where posting on Facebook is their entire reality.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^^^^^^Nothing. Absolutely Nothing.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
They, them "YOUTH" you speak of, will do it all for me. Just like they did last Nov 4th when 90% of the DEM YOUTH were too busy posting and taking selfies to go and vote. They will do the exact same next year on Nov 8th.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Why is it then that POOR BLACKS keep voting for Democrats the past 60 or so years and most of them, are still POOR and live in a total world of oppressed and racist shet. That is of course according to many here.
Like your man Ben, right?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Ah no KenM.... Just like your straw grabbing regarding the "Scholarship" verbiage that now appears to be a complete fabrication by Politico.
Among racial and ethnic groups, African Americans had the highest poverty rate, 27.4 percent, followed by Hispanics at 26.6 percent and whites at 9.9 percent. 45.8 percent of young black children (under age 6) live in poverty, compared to 14.5 percent of white children. http://stateofworkingamerica.org/fact-sheets/poverty/
What is even more astonishing about the above statistic, more than 80% of those Blacks that live in Poverty, do so in urban areas that are governed by a Democrat that they helped elect into office. And have done so for over the past two or three decades.
WTF is up with that... Ken M?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2015 - 05:36am PT
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I am glad to see this thread is gaining traction and I will get some more content in the OP later today.
I realize that much of partisan political media seems to revolve around the posting and reposting of political cartoons but when 80% of one's posts is copy/pasting such material it mostly sends the message that you do not have original ideas and that your media based world view is best expressed through oversimplified caricatures. Even a one sentence post is usually better than copy/pasting a political cartoon. Use your words, people.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2015 - 05:42am PT
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Werner posted You stoopid Americans
The pyramids are made out of styrofoam and put in place by only a few dudes.
Then one dude chanted a special mantra and bingo all the styrofoam turned into stone .......
How are people not talking about this? Who knows this sacred incantation?!?!? This opens open an entire new world of routesetting!!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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In the early 2000s, America was led by:
-A segregationist-sympathizer (senate majority leader Trent Lott);
-A Child molester, convicted of illegally providing hush money (house speaker dennis Hastert);
-His convicted felon second in command (house majority leader Tom DeLay)
-And a guy whose own father--a former president, himself--thinks screwed the pooch as president.
All of them proud republicans.
That explains a lot.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sorry Chief, the picture of the Repugs is not accepting money from the arabs, it is KISSING them. So glad you are aligning yourself with the Sharia Law loving arabs. Let's us see what the NCO corps is all about.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dirtbag
There are some truths to your points about republican leadership.
I enjoy occasionally debating philosophically, just so that my ideas are challenged.
The way I see it:
With progressives, everything is political.
Their best and brightest are drawn to politics.
With conservatives, politics is peripheral.
Their best and brightest are drawn to the private sector.
Probably why republicans are so inept as advocates of conservative causes.
I really don't see one political party having a higher moral authority over the other.
They each have their legitimate philosophies, agendas and interest groups.
They each have their share of craven and corrupt narcissists.
I believe Barak Obama is a decent man, but he does excel in a sewer of a profession, like all good politicians do.
One could make the case that he rose to the top of the most corrupt political machine in America without making any waves, but what does that really mean?
One other thing.
In these personal scandals, it seems to me that republicans out their own, while democrats tend to circle the wagons.
Not in every case, but in general, that is my perception.
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dirtbag
climber
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really don't see one political party having a higher moral authority over the other.
They each have their legitimate philosophies, agendas and interest groups.
They each have their share of craven and corrupt narcissists.
I agree.
It's just noteworthy that we had the perfect storm of seriously compromised leaders in leading posts at the same time.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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To further the philosophical discussion of our modern problems:
Bernie's big message seems to be income inequality
I don't think income inequality is well understood.
1. Income inequality is a natural result of freedom. We all make our choices and set our own priorities.
That rich guy may have sold his soul and never got to know his kids in making money his God.
You, OTOH, probably have more leisure time than he does. Why don't we measure leisure time inequality?
2. Technology of the future will probably increase income inequality for a variety of reasons, and neither political party has an answer to that.
3. A successful marriage is one of the surest ways to prosperity.
A broken marriage and single parenting is one of the surest ways to (edit) financial struggles.
Our popular culture is changing in a way that naturally increases income inequality.
How does Bernie, or Hillary, propose to "cure" income inequality?
Through benevolent state authority? Seems like that's been tried before.
How do any of the republicans propose to fix it?
Not sure they see it as fixable, except for trying to change the perverse incentives of the welfare state.
We'll see how the majority of voters see the problem and the fix.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Larry, I share your observations about other aspects of inequality, however they are much more difficult to quantify, esp. for political purposes. Sander's focus is on an aspect that is more tangible to most- that of simple income inequality, and the way the predominance of wealth has centralized in a very small percentage of the citizenry.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Apogee,
I agree my points are a simplification.
One of the things I believe ignited the fires on the left and right was the bailouts of the "too big to fail".
Privatizing profits and socializing losses just isn't right.
And then for CEO's to award themselves big bonuses for not going bankrupt?
It stinks.
OTOH, with a big recession looming, what was the right answer?
Counter-factuals cannot be dis-proven, so we will never know.
What most Americans now believe is that there is some kind of craven connection between the Wall St super rich and politicians of both parties who attain wealth in the course of their "service" to the "people".
That's why Bernie's message is ringing true for so many.
That's why republican outsiders are polling higher than the establishment.
Edit:
Dingus, another one of your humorous yet wise observations.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I haven't read posts before this page, but this seems to be a remarkably intelligent political discussion. Is the rest of the thread like this?
John
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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We're screwed.
The Supreme Court made it harder Monday to sue police for using deadly force against fleeing suspects, ruling that officers are immune from lawsuits unless it is "beyond debate" that a shooting was unjustified and clearly unreasonable.
By an 8-1 vote, the justices tossed out an excessive force suit against a Texas police officer who ignored his supervisor's warning and took a high-powered rifle to a highway overpass to shoot at an approaching car. The officer said he hoped to stop the car but instead shot and killed the driver.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-supreme-court-police-shootings-20151109-story.html
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"...this seems to be a remarkably intelligent political discussion. Is the rest of the thread like this?"
Oh, cheeeeeefy boy......!!!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Another issue that both parties will need to address is our national debt, and the sustainability of our entitlement programs. Money, money, money. (I wanna keep more of mine)
Gov't worker pensions:
Government worker pension plans will be history by the time millennials retire (or at least they should be).
Almost every state in the country is suffering from financial difficulties that are primarily rooted in the unrealistic retirement promises made to good government workers. You can't take back now what a person committed a career to, but the future has to change.
Social Security:
It is dangerously close to a crises with the boomer demographic straining it's viability.
The combination of future gov't workers moving to social security, means testing of social security, eliminating caps on social security contributions and changing retirement ages will be necessary.
Supplemental IRA's or other investments will also be necessary for everyone with financial sense.
The education system has failed our country in that respect.
Social Security 2:
One of the ways that states are easing their own financial burdens, with so many needing assistance, is to slyly steer recipients into Social Security disability. More Americans are now on Social Security disability than ever.
After unemployment runs out, "Bad" knees, "bad" back or "elevated" blood pressure are now qualifications for Social Security disability.
I know people with all three at the same time (not severe cases) who work full time.
Health care:
yikes, that is a tough one and is for people much smarter than me. Obamacare has cost me more, and has been very inconvenient for many that I know, but I don't see it getting repealed. Once a government entitlement has been implemented, it is virtually impossible to take it away. Lot's of work yet to be done. How does it get paid for during the biggest ongoing financial crises in our lifetimes?
Military Industrial Complex.
It's a dangerous world out there, it's smaller and closer to us than ever, and bad people love a power vacuum.
But do we need to be "Team America, World Police"? (one of my favorite movies...especially the puppet sex scene).
Lots of waste and corporate welfare going on. I believe it's one of the most important roles of Federal Gov't, but that slob needs to go on a diet.
We need to reassess the needs of today's world in a realistic way.
Welfare reform again?
The perverse incentives of a welfare state...where a single mother of 2 needs a $57,000/year starting wage to equal a lifestyle of full benefits that she qualifies for. What is her incentive to ever get off the dole?
Why get married if it would drastically cut into the lifestyle? Besides, does her son really need a father?
This is very bad for our culture and is one of the defining messages of conservatives about the decline of our culture.
Tax reform:
How to pay. Well, our tax system sucks. It's complicated, has perverse loopholes and really only serves the political class.
Our corporate tax rate is one of the highest in the Western world, yet many corporations pay next to nothing. We raise their rates, and they move more offshore.
In addition, the IRS now is perceived by many citizens to be politicized. This is the worst reputation a government agency can possibly have.
So I think all could agree that reform is required.
Maybe debate moderators could ask some questions on these topics, then STFU to give candidates a chance to layout their solutions.
I suspect the egos of moderators conflict with my fantasies.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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The most effective means of tackling climate change of the past 7 years in this country has been fewer people working and high gas prices.
China's economy sucking wind is helping.
Let's go after the other economies.
Go ahead, run on that.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Talk radio shock jocks, Fox and right-wing PAC's livelihood depends on provoking perpetual right-wing anger. (See any post by TGT). This is the crowd giving us Trump and Carson. They'll fade, but not before dumbing down the political process even more.
Eugene Robinsn nails it tonight:
Cruz’s tirade and Carson’s complaining fit neatly into the conservative narrative of victimization by the liberal media. The idea seems to be that the conservative worldview would surely be adopted by more Americans if not for the dastardly intermediation of leftist reporters and editors.
Imagining some kind of media conspiracy will not help the conservative movement. Instead, Republicans should try coming up with policies that voters see as reasonable, inclusive and fair.
And as for Carson: Stop complaining, already, and start making sense.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Choom boy's college records are still sealed.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 9, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Sorry Chief, the picture of the Repugs is not accepting money from the arabs, it is KISSING them. So glad you are aligning yourself with the Sharia Law loving arabs. Let's us see what the NCO corps is all about.
Hmmmm...
That btw KENM is POTUS Obama... "KISSING" the Kings hand.
Too Funneeee I tell ya.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2015 - 05:32am PT
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Larry posted 1. Income inequality is a natural result of freedom. We all make our choices and set our own priorities.
That rich guy may have sold his soul and never got to know his kids in making money his God.
You, OTOH, probably have more leisure time than he does. Why don't we measure leisure time inequality?
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, Larry. Unfortunately, it smacks of ideas formulated while ruminating on a long belay shift rather than rooted in the experiences of the average person or even a light reading of the various causes of wealth inequality in our country. I think the first problem is that you appear to be assuming that everyone has had the same opportunities and privileges that you have, which is not true. In a perfectly meritorious world where everyone gets exactly the same early education opportunities, same access to resources and schooling/employment are solely merit-based your viewpoint might hold up. Person A sees the pathway to be an investment banker and takes it, reaping huge financial rewards at the expense of discretionary time. Person B sees the same path but chooses to be a dirtbag climbing bum, accepts their lower income as a trade-off for pursuing their passion and is happy with it. We do not live in that world, however, and it requires a fair bit of intentional ignorance to maintain such a worldview. Inequality is the product of the wealth redistribution system we have created that rewards certain types of income producing opportunities at the expense of others through tax structures, labor laws, social norms and housing/banking systems that calcify economic mobility. It is no accident and it is not the natural product of any superhuman force or law of the universe. It's just literally how we've decided things should be.
Larry continued 2. Technology of the future will probably increase income inequality for a variety of reasons, and neither political party has an answer to that.
The primary reason that we choose to concentrate the rewards for automation at the top instead of requiring that they be shared more broadly. When people envisioned an automated future in the 1950's, they imagined these technologies would be used to better the lives of average Americans so that we might be productive while also having more free time. Instead they are largely being used to make larger segments of the population unemployable while those who create them continue to support politics that demonize the workers that have been replaced as lazy. There is no reason that factory farming couldn't be used to ensure a stable, free (or near free) food supply for our citizens instead of solely enriching a relative few. There is no reason that medicine can't be made accessible to people that need it instead of structured in a way that produces the highest possible profits for a relative few.
Many people, even within the party system, have put forward ideas to make this system more equitable. Maybe you just don't like them?
Reading on wealth inequality:
Coates' article on the case for reparations. It covers a lot of the pretty amazing (read: appalling) ways that America institutionalized poverty for black Americans in the 20th century.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
A very brief summary of Piketty's research into how tax structures have been a huge driver of wealth inequality (and not income differences):
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/thomas-piketty-capitalinequalityeconomics.html
Seven Pillars has a 5 part series on wealth inequality which (on first impression) seems like a decent read:
http://sevenpillarsinstitute.org/case-studies/income-inequality-series
Suggestions?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:05am PT
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Jammer, gone completely
what did he do to get axed?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Hey HDDJ
Thanks for your input.
I'll leave aside your assumptions on my privileges, good fortune and limited life experiences, but I do make great efforts to be positive and cheerful.
You no doubt understand that there is a natural inequality, but that the top 1% or so have gamed the system to their advantage. I would agree with that.
But there will always be people who attain more wealth and use it to their advantage. This is also natural.
It is as natural for capitalists and industrialists as it is for politicians, actors and athletes. Not sure what we can or should do about that.
Make it against the law to be "too greedy"?
So the question becomes, how do we limit undue influence?
Who are these guys on the Federal Reserve?
Whose palms are getting greased in Washington DC to ignore bankruptcy laws for the benefit of CEO's who have mismanaged their responsibilities?
Why does everyone talk about tax reform and the loopholes, but nothing ever happens in congress?
What is the cure?
Here is where we should tread carefully, lest we find ourselves in a cul-de-sac of unintended consequences.
I think something needs to be done, but I admit that I'm not sure what it is. It is certainly not simple.
Here is a good graphic from the NY Times on occupations of the top 1%:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/newsgraphics/2012/0115-one-percent-occupations/index.html
On your second point: How exactly do we "require" that the rewards for automation are "shared"?
Technolgy will not be stopped and it has no inherent compassion.
Your desires seem to be of a socialist perspective. I am not implying that is bad.
In fact, that is probably the future of our society. People just want more free stuff and that is natural.
The sustainability of that type of system will also determine our fate as a democracy.
Do society's ever run out of other people's money?
I am not the "Shell Answer Man" here. I have more questions than answers. Don't pin me in to be the all or nothing type.
I understand nuances and exceptions to rules.
But I do believe something needs to be done to level the field of opportunities (but not outcomes).
Liberty and security is a zero sum equation. Be careful what you wish for.
I'll go over your links as time permits. Thanks for your input.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Larry, I've often considered the following modest proposal:
Why simply redistribute monetary income? Why not also redistribute leisure? And why not do it progressively?
For example, we should have a "zero leisure tax bracket" consisting of two days off per week. For the first ten days in excess of that amount, you owe one hour of community service per day. For the next five days in excess of that amount, you owe an additional two hours of community service per day. For an additional five days of community service, you owe an additional three hours of community service. For any days off in addition, you owe four hours of community service for each additional day off. This approximates the combined state and federal income tax for a California resident.
Sure it's outrageous, but why should those rich in time escape the consequences of their richness?
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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Larry posted I'll leave aside your assumptions on my privileges, good fortune and limited life experiences, but I do make great efforts to be positive and cheerful.
Forgive my assumptions, but your questions seem to come from a place of relative naivety regarding how our economic and political system works. We have a system designed to redistribute wealth to people who generally have money already and who make lots of money. How do we "require" it to be shared more evenly? We require it to be shared more evenly. I mean it's really that simple. I am not understanding the foundation under the question to be honest. Currently we have a system rigged to push the money in certain directions and the people who gain the most from that system work really hard to convince everyone that this is the natural order of things and that to change it would be catastrophic to everyone despite there being a wealth of evidence and real world experience to the contrary. I'm not going to go in depth much further because I provided a lot of good reading on how these systems are rigged and you appear to have ignored it.
Larry posted Technolgy will not be stopped and it has no inherent compassion.
Your desires seem to be of a socialist perspective. I am not implying that is bad.
In fact, that is probably the future of our society. People just want more free stuff and that is natural.
The sustainability of that type of system will also determine our fate as a democracy.
Do society's ever run out of other people's money?
Again, I'm not so sure the foundation of your questions are very sound. The argument that poor people "want free stuff" and that this is provided at the expense of "other people" (i.e., the rich) depends upon the assumption that our system is perfectly meritorious. It is not. The people making the most money do not necessarily work the hardest, provide the most benefit to society or produce the most. Quite often, those at the upper end of our wealth spectrum "want free stuff" but the question has to be asked "does society ever run out of other people's money?" I would argue that the wealth inequality gap is proving that we are starting to run out of other people's money and that we should stop giving so much free stuff to the people who are already benefiting so greatly by the system.
Larry posted But I do believe something needs to be done to level the field of opportunities (but not outcomes).
New Hampshire, where I currently live, has no income tax, no sales tax and a monstrous property tax. We also make a lot of money off of alcohol and tobacco taxes (all liquor is sold exclusively by the State because: conservatism or something). The quality of school districts vary massively depending on the tax base of a given town. The ability to live in a given town depends on one's ability to afford to live there. As such, towns with a high tax base and good schools are incredibly desirable which in turn feeds property values and then even higher taxes. If you can afford to live in one of those towns, you enjoy incredible educational resources, faculty and the social connections one needs to land job opportunities, internships and recommendations. If you don't live in one of those towns your rent/mortgage is a lot lower, but so are the opportunities. In this system, parents' outcomes = their children's opportunities. You can't separate one from the other.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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John,
LOL, there really is just as much truth to the other side of the coin.
If only I had made different choices, why, "I coulda been a contendah".
As it is, I'm just a Walter Mitty climber who fantasizes more than realizes.
Relatively impoverished in the rewards of leisure time with friends and family.
Left way behind the 47% in their rich and unfair bounty of leisure time.
A slave to my responsibilities, rather than a master of my own domain (hat tip to Seinfeld).
A victim from the effects of trickle down leisure time.
Some steps to take:
1. Determine the causes of leisure time inequality.
2. Determine the consequences of leisure time inequality.
3. Determine leisure time inequality's effect on political inequality.
4. Find solutions to leisure time inequality.
5. Determine the ethics of minimum leisure time legislation.
(hat tip to HDDJ's link to 7 Pillars)
OK, just havin fun.
HDDJ,
Gotta go, back to you later on your thoughtful posting
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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We have a system designed to redistribute wealth to people who generally have money already and who make lots of money.
I respectfully disagree, HDDJ. First, let's agree on definitions. Wealth is the sum of income minus expenses accumulated over time. Income is receipts minus outlays for a given period of time. Wealth is a stock; income a flow.
Most of the arguments I see regarding concentration of "wealth" are really arguments about concentration of income. They come from IRS data, which does not measure wealth, and they are anonymous. We have no way of telling whether those with high incomes in one year are the same as those with high incomes in another year. Consequently, I don't think we can make any empirical conclusions about how our system distributes, much less redistributes, wealth. We can, however, make certain generalizations:
1. We have a capitalist economy, with a modest amount of government intervention.
2. If you spend less than you make, your wealth will increase.
3. Capitalism rewards those with capital, and rewards them unevenly. When interest rates drop unexpectedly, those holding equity securities obtain a much higher rate of return than those merely lending money (i.e., putting their money in a savings account). If interest rates rise unexpectedly, the reverse is true. Government policy affects interest rates, so the political system has some effect on what capital gets what reward.
4. Capitalism also rewards those taking entrepreneurial risk. The average return on investment increases with the risk involved, and this favors those able to diversify their risky investments. Nonetheless, the great variety of mutual funds and other investments available to small investors largely allows one to select the level of diversification and risk with which one is comfortable. Government policy has little effect on this issue.
5. Capitalism also rewards suppliers of labor and resources based on relative supply and demand. Government policy can artificially restrict supply (e.g. of sugar) or stimulate demand (e.g. of "clean" energy), but usually can do so only for small, well-organized and well-heeled groups. For most markets (labor generally, and most commodities) the government lacks the resources to affect the market in any major way. To this extent, the system really does favor those with more over those with less. I would note, however, that most of these policies of favoratism come from the left, not the right. The political thrust to end "crony capitalism" doesn't strike me as particularly strong among the current Democrats as it is among current Republicans, although both have sinned in this regard.
In general, though, our system is stacked in favor of those with intelligence, training, self-discipline and a willingness to delay gratification. A lot of that reflects things we did not really earn, such as stable families and native abilities, but a lot more of it, in my opinion, reflects decisions we make.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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John In general, though, our system is stacked in favor of those with intelligence, training, self-discipline and a willingness to delay gratification
Thanks for the thoughtful response. You're pointing at only the bright half of the moon, though. You forgot to mention all the ways that our system punishes those without capital, without access, without privilege. You describe the legs of the stool one is required to believe that holds up the idea that poor people are to blame for their own situation. You're right, too many of the points against inequality center on income which is why I specifically use the word wealth. If you have no wealth it becomes far, far harder to accumulate any with income. The poorer you are the higher your fees, the higher your borrowing interest, the lower your investment gains, the less able you are to go from renting to owning, the more likely it is you are unable to miss a day of work and still pay your bills. A huge number of Americans still don't even have bank accounts meaning they pay fees to cash their paychecks. Prior to the ubiquity of the debit card the average ATM fee was $2 and the average ATM withdrawal was $20. That means your average ATM using American was being charged a 10% fee to use their own money. Examples of this kind of stuff abound.
You state that the system rewards those who play by the rules but the system has different rules for different people. "Gratification" has a very different definition for someone who lives hand to mouth versus someone saving for vacation or retirement. There is also a lot of research showing that being poor actually makes people make worse financial decisions.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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You describe the legs of the stool one is required to believe that holds up the idea that poor people are to blame for their own situation.
I would state that differently, HDDJ. I think where we start depends on factors outside our control. Where we end up, on the other hand, largely depends on our actions and choices. Accordingly, I think poor people are not responseible for starting out poor, but are largely responsible for improving their position, and I say that mainly because of personal experience.
My father's family was dirt poor. He was the oldest child. He had three younger sisters. Only the youngest finished high school on time. My father finished a year late because he worked full-time in the packing houses during the fall semester of his junior and senior years, and basically supported the family (including his parents) once he graduated. The oldest sister never graduated from high school. The middle graduated from high school by going to night school in her 30's. She married an orphaned survivor of the Armenian massacres who never finished high school. None earned even a bachelor's degree.
All lived very frugally for a very long time, but all ended up with substantial liquid and real estate assets because they continually invested. I wonder if they would have been the same if they believed that they were not responsible for improving their condition, or if they thought that saving and investing, getting as much education as they could afford, and working hard would not bring any tangible reward.
In my mid 50's, I suffered a terrible, debilitating depression caused solely by brain chemistry issues, not outside circumstance, that caused me to lose my profession, all of my accumulated wealth, and my ability to earn income, as I've chronicled elsewhere. I have experienced firsthand the extra costs those with lower incomes pay to borrow money, or to buy goods because they can only afford small quantities, etc. I had to start over financially when I got out of prison at age 56, so I know from experience what happens when you have to "check the box." Now that I've reached my "Beatles Birthday" (i.e. 64) I don't see a comfortable retirement any time soon. You definitely speak truth when you say those without means have it harder than those with means. We agree there.
Nonetheless, I don't see the system stacked against me, because I understand what I need to do, and I'm blessed with a wife who also understands it. We don't like it, but we had to adjust our budget and lifestyle to be able to accumulate wealth. It would have been a lot more fun if I could continue as my state was 25 years ago, but my actions took that option away. It's not the system's fault. We make the best of what we have, and are definitely better off now than we were eight years ago.
So again, I don't see this as a system that is inherently redistributive. I see it as one that rewards certain behavior. While some of that behavior is easier for those with means, it still comes down to our individual decisions.
John
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 10, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
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Capitalism is based on redistribution of wealth. The wealth is redistributed from those who create it to those who accumulate it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 10, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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We have a financial system designed to redistribute wealth to people who generally have money already and who make lots of money.
Fixed that for you.
And, we have developed a political system that now perpetuates and encourages the financial inequalities.
Elect a champion of the oligarchy, someone like Trump or a Republican, and you will see the downward spiral accelerate. The rich will get richer, by design of the system. The poor will get poorer, not for lack of trying but for a system stacked against wealth-building of the poor.
Remember, several years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that a private developer could use eminent domain to take homes away from the poor in order to build a private shopping center so the developer could become rich.
Remember, a private corporation is now legally a "person" who, by gift of wealth, has more "rights" than a typical American who actually has a warm body.
America is being led into the shithole. People, you are witnessing, in your own lifetime, the downfall of America.
If you really hate America, then vote for a Republican.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Couldn't disagree more, SLR. The policies of the Democrats have led to this massive inequality, by deciding that the government should be the enemy of business and employers. It should surprise no one that so few Americans have been employed.
If you want to be a friend of this country, elect politicians who don't care about political party or theories as much as support what has empirical evidence of working.
John
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 10, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
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C'mon SLR, like the dollar democracy ain't representative.
;-)
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 10, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
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JE..... you are correct again, thanks for the well thought out reply's.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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Elect a champion of the oligarchy, someone like Trump, Bush, Rubio or Hillary, and you will see the downward spiral accelerate.
Fixed that for you.
The oligarchy has done quite well under the present regime.
In fact, better than ever!
Big business and big government need each other.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2015 - 06:21pm PT
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Yeah, you want trust one of these clowns economic policy. Never mind their party drove the U.S. and world economy into total collapse the last time they had the presidency.
Don't expect any challenges to the barrel of exaggerations and lies from the Fox softball throwers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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Never mind their party drove the U.S. and world economy into total collapse the last time they had the presidency
The depth of economic ignorance exhibited here never ceases to amaze.
Economies are like the tides: there is ebb and flow, grasshopper. The
retards in a particular office have no meaningful effect.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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JE! I normally enjoy your thoughtful conservative posts, but every now & then you drop a right-wing Zinger on us.
Tonight it was this: It should surprise no one that so few Americans have been employed.
From the US Bureau of Labor Statistics Nov 6, 2015 report.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION -- OCTOBER 2015
Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 271,000 in October, and the
unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today.
And CNN Money reports the unemployment rate is the lowest since 2008.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/06/news/economy/jobs-report-october/
It was a blockbuster month in America for jobs.
The U.S. economy added 271,000 jobs in October, far better than sluggish gains in September and any forecasts and the best monthly gain of 2015.
The unemployment rate also fell to 5%, its lowest level since 2008 and half of the 10% rate in the aftermath of the financial crisis.
JE? These employment figures look very positive to me too, but of course what do I, a one-time Rockefeller Republican, now a hated liberal; know about business, jobs, & what's good for America?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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The depth of economic ignorance exhibited here never ceases to amaze.
Economies are like the tides: there is ebb and flow, grasshopper. The
retards in a particular office have no meaningful effect.
Wow, Master Po, that was one, lousy ebb. Like the worst in 80 years. And I don't have the space here to name the economist who disagree with your assessment.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
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John posted So again, I don't see this as a system that is inherently redistributive. I see it as one that rewards certain behavior.
I'm sorry to hear about your personal hardship. You perfectly illustrate how having the means to buffer against hardship kept you out of abject poverty. Millions of Americans do not have the means to survive that kind of challenge and then are shamed for utilizing public assistance. As they say, anecdote is not the plural of data. You may not "see" the system as inherently redistributive but the data is incredibly clear that it is. It's just factually true. It's also true that the system rewards certain behavior. It also rewards certain skin colors, certain economic circumstances, certain educational and cultural backgrounds and certain genders. If doing better is just a matter of "bootstrapping harder" why has so much wealth become concentrated in the hands of so few? They just work that much harder? They get up that much earlier in the morning? It doesn't matter how many hours a day you want to work at a $7.25/hour job, you aren't going to be able to go to school if your boss insists on splitting your shifts, withholds your pay and punishes you for missing work when your kid is sick. All of this stuff happens on a regular basis. Why are you so averse to acknowledging the manner in which the working poor are exploited in this country?
John posted If you want to be a friend of this country, elect politicians who don't care about political party or theories as much as support what has empirical evidence of working.
I have to say I find this statement pretty ironic considering your eagerness to reinforce your viewpoint with anecdote instead of evidence.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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Crankloon, you don't have to name the Demo-hack-who-shall-remain-nameless-
ere-he-suffers-more-derision. The person in the White House doesn't reinvent
the economic system in place every four years. When are you going to
realize that?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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You're babbling now like your sidekick, O'Reilly.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
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TGT posted Elect a champion of the oligarchy, someone like Trump, Bush, Rubio or Hillary, and you will see the downward spiral accelerate.
For once, TGT is correct, despite his use of crude and trite generalizations. The Democratic party is far more cozy with big business than it used to be, in no small part due to the decline of labor unions (which TGT would ironically disparage). That being said, Clinton has actually put forth plans to address some of the problems that still exist with the financial sector and you'll only see those other guys eager embrace a boom and bust economy.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:27pm PT
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Fiorina is earning her kook stripes tonight.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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Dirt, Kasich is having a good night, imo. He's about the only one who doesn't scare me. Bush isn't hurting himself, either. He could be around in the end.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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Fiorina is earning her kook stripes tonight
"Let there be no mistake, let there be no mistake"
Susan
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Yep crankster. He has rejected quite a bit of the bullshit being espoused, such as promises to ship out 11 million people. Right wing looks don't want to hear it, but the truth is, it ain't gonna happen.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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Texans really elected a kook when they sent Cruz to the senate.
Kasich is definitely playing the competency card. What a concept!
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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It is both naive and factually wrong to state that it does not matter which political
party has the Presidency and congress during times of economic stress
this is seen clearly when the Republicans had the Presidency, House, and Senate from
2001-2006 and the economy went into negative growth and then the worst Recession since the Great Dpression
there were two substantial reasons for this, the exploding financial derivative market and the mortgage market, both of which were ignored, not regulated, which is the
very mantra of Republicanism - that market should be free like puppies and children
and that oversight, regulation supposedly hurts business
how emphatically wrong this economic philosophy of do nothing in crises was proven
as 15 million Americans lost their jobs while the Bush Administration did.....nothing
avoidable? yes, its called being aware and willing to perform oversight and regulate
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John M
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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I just can't believe the GOP moderators. Can they ask a question without rolling their eyes whenever they mention Hilary Clinton.. doesn't seem like it. And it plays to the crowd. The moderators should be impartial.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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Yeah , but George looked so competent and dashing landing that military plane on the aircraft carrier..
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John M
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
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The whole thought process is just so bizarre. The moderator says HIlary has arguably more experience then anyone on the stage..then she does an Eye roll..
Meaning.. that politicians are not to be trusted, especially career politicians, except of course all those on the stage who want to be a politician.
Hi.. I want to be a career politician, but you can trust me because I'm not a career politician.
good grief.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
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It was obvious the candidates were amongst friends with the moderators. Basically, it was an opportunity for them to give stump speeches in friendly terrain.
Carson just mumbled gibberish.
Cruz gets the evangelicals when Carson tanks.
Bush did OK
Rubio gets a bump.
Kasich maybe up a point, but he's old news.
Fiorina, nope.
Trump holds on, his base is as nuts as he is.
Paul, bye. Can't talk military restraint with this crowd.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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Norton, Crankster, Dirtbag, HDDJ, DR F, and other progressives I respect:
(Apologies for not calling Norton a republican)
Check this link if you want to know why people vote republican. It's from a highly respected progressive.
http://edge.org/conversation/what-makes-vote-republican
I shy from using the term liberal for democrats anymore. On some social policy issues they seem to advocate government authoritarianism, rather than classic liberal values.
Republicans tend to distrust government, which was a cornerstone of our nation's founding.
After the recent politicization of the IRS and justice departments, they have good reason.
As one example, check out the definition of economic liberalism here to see why democrats are not necessarily liberal in all aspects.
Economic liberalism is most often associated with support for free markets and private ownership of capital assets, and is usually contrasted with similar ideologies such as social liberalism and social democracy, which generally favor alternative forms of capitalism such as welfare capitalism, state capitalism, or mixed economies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism
Cheers
Edit: Don't have TV in my house so not watching any debate.
But I will say, they are not classic debate formats. Moderators get in the way anymore, and every candidate now is coached heavily on TV appearances, due to the fickle and shallow nature of our voting population.
Maybe we need IQ tests to vote?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 10, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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"On some social policy issues they seem to advocate government authoritarianism, rather than classic liberal values."
Yeah, well, us true liberals aren't too happy about the lily-livered Dems tendency to pander with the Right just to not look 'anti-American' when the Repugs are trying to paint them that way.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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2 things progressives hate:
1. Patriotism
2. Someone questioning their patriotism
2 other things progressives hate:
1. Religion
2. Someone questioning their religion
OK, I'm saying that in fun, but I think I see it in reality sometimes.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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2 things Republicans hate:
1. Americans
2. Someone questioning their patriotism
2 other things Republicans hate:
1. Integrity
2. Someone questioning their integrity
Fixed that for ya
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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They hate facts, too.
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John M
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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I hate generalizations..
generally
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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They like to blow Fox Business moderators though. They all agree on that.
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Jorroh
climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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"After the recent politicization of the IRS"
can you explain that to me?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2015 - 09:50pm PT
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"After the recent politicization of the IRS"
can you explain that to me?
Start with this impartial link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lois_Lerner#2013_controversy
Edit:
And whatever your views on the controversy, near half the country believes the IRS has been politicized.
Is it healthy for a government agency with the powers of the IRS to be perceived by so many as a political arm?
Just sayin
Edit:
Apogee:
Touche'...LOL
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 11, 2015 - 05:56am PT
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Sound bites from last night's Replicant debate;
"I'm the wealthiest most successful loud mouth douchbag in the history of the universe! I will be the most bad ass motherf*#king president ever coronated in the history of the planet, bar none!" And, "Wages are to fricken high! I'm not gonna let a bunch of 'wetback losers' prosper during 'my' administration, they're FIRED!!" Or, "Build a freakin' wall, problem solved, BAM!!"
Who talks like that?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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Archie Bunker?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Progressives seem to have a problem with diversity and tolerance, too.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/
Professor Nicholas Christakis lives at Yale, where he presides over one of its undergraduate colleges. His wife Erika, a lecturer in early childhood education, shares that duty. They reside among students and are responsible for shaping residential life. And before Halloween, some students complained to them that Yale administrators were offering heavy-handed advice on what Halloween costumes to avoid.
Erika Christakis reflected on the frustrations of the students, drew on her scholarship and career experience, and composed an email inviting the community to think about the controversy through an intellectual lens that few if any had considered. Her message was a model of relevant, thoughtful, civil engagement.
For her trouble, a faction of students are now trying to get the couple removed from their residential positions, which is to say, censured and ousted from their home on campus. Hundreds of Yale students are attacking them, some with hateful insults, shouted epithets, and a campaign of public shaming. In doing so, they have shown an illiberal streak that flows from flaws in their well-intentioned ideology.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/missouri-professor-melissa-click-muscle-journalist-tim-tai-protest/
Hey, who wants to help me get this reporter out of here?...I need some muscle over here.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 08:01am PT
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Maybe we need IQ tests to vote?
good point!
we should go with what the Founding Fathers put in place for voting
youi had to be a white male land owner
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Werner posted The former U.S. comptroller general says the real U.S. debt is closer to about $65 trillion than the oft-cited figure of $18 trillion.
The crankloons running America lying?
To get that number he added all of the obligations that America will be responsible for in the future based on current commitments. It's a pretty gimmicky way to make an impressive number. It strikes me as similar to adding all of your 5-year old's future college tuition bills to your current debt. The US has currently borrowed about $18 trillion and whether or not we borrow more in the future depends entirely on our budgetary decisions and if we decide to keep those commitments or not. Congress seems fond of dropping commitments it does not want to keep.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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"Congress seems fond of dropping commitments it does not want to keep."
Congress & POTUS's are fond of dropping the cost of commitments onto future generations. Give everybody a chicken, then let the next guy in office make the taxpayers pay for it.
Like the Iraq war and all that.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 11, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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The former U.S. comptroller general says the real U.S. debt is closer to about $65 trillion than the oft-cited figure of $18 trillion.
That needs to be said twice. All these damn politicians are lying to us. Thank you, Werner.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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Apparently, what needs to be said twice is "no, the US debt is not really $65 trillion."
No, the US debt is not really $65 trillion.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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It's a pretty gimmicky way to make an impressive number. It strikes me as similar to adding all of your 5-year old's future college tuition bills to your current debt.
Not really. It's just a different total. Kind of like to total for a fully amortized mortgage.
What's gimmicky is how the Federal government will reduce spending increases (8% instead of 10%), and claim they've reduced spending.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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Debate thoughts:
The FOX Business team clearly learned the lessons of Megyn Kelly and the CNBC crew and were on their best behavior. By "best" I mean "least journalistic." This produced interesting results. A lot of the coverage after the CNBC debate pointed out that most of the moments of failure on the part of presidential candidates comes when they are answering relatively mundane questions and the world falls apart on them. Think Sarah Palin being asked the complicated and confusing question "which magazines and newspapers do you regularly read?" The candidates were far more free to recite the talking points, obviously a position of comfort for them, but this often showed how shallow those points really were. They were often stuck essentially saying "me too" or in the rare instance, actually debating with each other. I have to say, I was heartened when a significant amount of the audience applauded Bush's rebuttal to Trump's immigration argument, a moment of real decency for both Bush and that segment of the Republican audience.
The biggest thing I walked away with (or drifted off to sleep with, as the case was) was that Rubio is very slick and he is going to prove himself very deft at making negatives seem like positives. If people thought that it was outrageous when Dubya named legislation to increase air pollution the Clear Skies Act, Rubio is going to be far more effective at this kind of thing. His answer to the minimum wage question was very deft indeed.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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Whether you call them members of the "Tea Party" or the "Republicans," this video exquisitely - and accurately -characterizes them both:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:08am PT
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Why do you suppose they chose $65 trillion as the magic fabricated number?
Why not $238 trillion?
Or a quadrillion?
Or a bazillion?
I mean, it's not about facts, it's about inflaming as much of the base as possible. The more hyperbolic, the better, right RepubDroids?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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apogee,
You think that's bad, George W Bush thinks the debt is over a Brazilian
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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A nice Brazilian is always welcome, Larry.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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Why do you suppose they chose $65 trillion as the magic fabricated number?
Why not $238 trillion?
Or a quadrillion?
Or a bazillion?
I mean, it's not about facts, it's about inflaming as much of the base as possible. The more hyperbolic, the better, right RepubDroids?
Derp!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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Way to take the high road, Sketch. We expect nothing less.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:41am PT
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I try.
It was either "Derp" or "Quit playing stupid, you f*#king troll!!!" ;-)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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True. I can't count the number of times people have said that to you, to no avail. 'Derp' is soooo much more to the point.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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Why the changing numbers? This.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"How many communists are there in the defense department?"
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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Apogee and Jethro Bodine.... math braintrusts.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:47am PT
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he debt is astronomical and can't even be put into a monetary figure.
Oh really, spacecase-man. On Earth, it can. On your planet, debt is measure how? Stones? Spacedust?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:49am PT
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'spose Donna Douglas ever had a Brazilian?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 09:53am PT
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There is a calculable monetary figure, but that does not capture the environmental devastation and the human suffering. I suspect it is thusly that the duck speaketh.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Apogee and Jethro Bodine.... math braintrusts.
LOL!!!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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The moderators just kept lobbing them slow pitch softballs, and they just responded with the same mom and apple pie crap they always parrot, hitting slow dribblers that were booted by the inept panel. When asked what their strategy was to win the election and why they are qualified, they said they needed to beat Hillary. Wow, that is deep...
During the debate and post-debate interviews, the moderators dislocated their shoulders patting themselves on the back, and the candidates told them how bitchen they were.
I would pay to see a Hillary/Fiorina cage match though. They both have huge chips on their shoulders and a lot of pent up frustration to release.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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Stahl, that's about the best you could have gotten from a Fox debate. It's basically the Republican National Committee's private network.
At least we don't have to hear all the crying about media bias.
Love the irony.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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Fritz,
I, too, take my employment data from the BLS. For some reason, the computer where I am now won't copy the total employment table, but the total nonfarm employment under this administration didn't reach the high of the previous administration until 2014, and the total employment throughout this administration's tenure has been, generally, abysmal, and particularly so when compared with any other postwar recession. The Pew Research Trust, not exactly a Republican shill, had an excellent concerning this issue about a year ago:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/23/five-years-in-recovery-still-underwhelms-compared-with-previous-ones/
We both know that unemployment rates during this time have comparability issues with those of previous recessions, due to the very low labor participation rate, so I put little reliance on unemployment rates. The overall level of employment is comparable, but it should be divided by the number of working-age Americans. When we do that, the picture is grim, indeed:
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000
It was on the basis of this data that I made my statement, and I stand by it.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 11, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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I'm sure you thought the questions were fair & balanced, Edward, as well as hard-hitting. A steady diet of Fox will have that effect on you,
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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John posted the total nonfarm employment under this administration didn't reach the high of the previous administration until 2014, and the total employment throughout this administration's tenure has been, generally, abysmal, and particularly so when compared with any other postwar recession.
Gee, if only Obama had created a housing bubble. Or run a 50% larger deficit while also leaving billions in war spending out of the budget. By Obama standards Bush (aided by Congress) was running a massive Keynesian cash infusion into the US economy. In 2008 we were literally posting on this forum that the Republicans were going to blame the economic crash on Obama down the road. Now here we are, Republicans have done everything humanly possible short of actual arson to prevent Obama from doing even the things that Bush did to stimulate the economy and who are you blaming...?
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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jobs - employment
government creates and maintains a pretty much fixed number of jobs
city, state, county and federals employees
and so it is the private sector that largely responsible for the job market
many private sector jobs are tied directly and indirectly to government contracts
interest rates and corporate profits are at historic lows and highs now
fortunes are being made in a very strong stock market
automation and greatly improved efficiency and productivity have eliminated millions
and millions of jobs in all but the higher tech sectors
and like mass firearm murders there is not much we can do to improve things
massive public works projects are a no go with this divided government
it is what is it, and it ain't anyone's "fault", except to ignorant partisan whiners
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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Norton, the first two years (really the first three) of this recession had massive "shovel ready" projects appropriated. Remember? After all, we now have those nice curbs on Yosemite's roads.
And I have yet to see any refutation of the BLS numbers relating to employment as a percentage of population. They plunged to levels well below those previously, and stayed there during all the "pump-priming" to which you allude.
The one constant through this time has been this administration's hostility to business. While the administration's defenders stubbornly cling to their fantasy that the regulations and actions of this administration have had only a positive effect on employment, the statistics say otherwise.
John
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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The stimulus increased the number of jobs paid for by the Feds. But during that same period, states cut a lot of jobs, especially teachers and police. Total government employment was pretty flat. If not for the stimulus, it would have declined.
Presidents frequently get more credit/blame than they deserve. Comparing job stats for an administration that came to office at the beginning of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression with other administrations is pretty lame.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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Good post, JE.
Work force participation is at historic lows. The unemployment and job creation numbers give me pause.
The recent jobs report stated 271,000 new jobs were created in October. What gets overlooked is 378,000 jobs went to the over 55 crowd, with 25-54 group showing a loss of 35,000. Males in this age group tumbled by 119,000!
The Obama recovery has done well. Better than I expected. But there's been a lot of government priming of the pump, which is now incorporated into the economy. At some point, we're gonna have a recession/pullback. When that happens, I'm not sure the government/Fed will have any tools to effectively buffer the decline.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Anders, I've sure missed your posts here. Welocme back!
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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Welcome back, MH. It's really good to see you here.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 11, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
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Conservatives ignore 5% unemployment rates because it doesn't serve their purpose; that is, conjecturing that it would be better under a McCain/Palin or Romney/Ryan administration.
They can't, and don't, know that. All we know is that this president was faced with the total collapse of the US and world economy and has helped to bring us back to where we are today.
Is anyone on the GOP side presenting an economic policy that isn't paper thin? Or a return to the policies that got us into the Great Recession?
No.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 11, 2015 - 02:58pm PT
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I know a lot of folks who had their FT job cut back to PT, and are now without benefits. Seems to be the growing trend.
They're still considered "employed." Are they really?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
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SLR,
Another thing going on is the financial crises in almost all states. I'll leave out the reasons, but many states are steering unemployed toward Social Security Disability because the state budgets are overburdened, and carrying debt during historically low interest rates.
What happens when interest rates go up?
Will they stay low forever?
Some would say that the states are running out of other people's money.
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John M
climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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This is interesting to read. How the unemployment figures are obtained. Its not what I thought, or many here think, it is not based on who applies for unemployment insurance.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#where
Where do the statistics come from?
Early each month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) of the U.S. Department of Labor announces the total number of employed and unemployed people in the United States for the previous month, along with many characteristics about them. These figures, particularly the unemployment rate—which tells you the percentage of the labor force that is unemployed—receive wide coverage in the media.
Some people think that to get these figures on unemployment, the government uses the number of people collecting unemployment insurance (UI) benefits under state or federal government programs. But some people are still jobless when their benefits run out, and many more are not eligible at all or delay or never apply for benefits. So, quite clearly, UI information cannot be used as a source for complete information on the number of unemployed.
Other people think that the government counts every unemployed person each month. To do this, every home in the country would have to be contacted—just as in the population census every 10 years. This procedure would cost way too much and take far too long to produce the data. In addition, people would soon grow tired of having a census taker contact them every month, year after year, to ask about job-related activities.
Because unemployment insurance records relate only to people who have applied for such benefits, and since it is impractical to count every unemployed person each month, the government conducts a monthly survey called the Current Population Survey (CPS) to measure the extent of unemployment in the country. The CPS has been conducted in the United States every month since 1940, when it began as a Work Projects Administration program. In 1942, the U.S. Census Bureau took over responsibility for the CPS. The survey has been expanded and modified several times since then. In 1994, for instance, the CPS underwent a major redesign in order to computerize the interview process as well as to obtain more comprehensive and relevant information.
There are about 60,000 eligible households in the sample for this survey. This translates into approximately 110,000 individuals each month, a large sample compared to public opinion surveys, which usually cover fewer than 2,000 people. The CPS sample is selected so as to be representative of the entire population of the United States. In order to select the sample, all of the counties and independent cities in the country first are grouped into approximately 2,000 geographic areas (sampling units). The Census Bureau then designs and selects a sample of about 800 of these geographic areas to represent each state and the District of Columbia. The sample is a state-based design and reflects urban and rural areas, different types of industrial and farming areas, and the major geographic divisions of each state.
Every month, one-fourth of the households in the sample are changed, so that no household is interviewed for more than 4 consecutive months. After a household is interviewed for 4 consecutive months, it leaves the sample for 8 months, and then is again interviewed for the same 4 calendar months a year later, before leaving the sample for good. As a result, approximately 75 percent of the sample remains the same from month to month and 50 percent remains the same from year to year. This procedure strengthens the reliability of estimates of month-to-month and year-to-year change in the data.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 12, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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I was reading about heuristics and theorized psychological heuristics when I came across this;
Escalation of commitment – Describes the phenomenon where people justify increased investment in a decision, based on the cumulative prior investment, despite new evidence suggesting that the cost, starting today, of continuing the decision outweighs the expected benefit.
It occurred to me that this might be the reason why so many politicians and military planners have decided to stay in such prolonged wars in places such as Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan with little or no positive end result.
I know I'm not the first person to realize this but I thought it was relevant to a political discussion because the subject of entering new wars and exiting old wars hasn't been discussed at any length by most of the presidential candidates of either party during the debates except for Bernie Sanders and possibly a few others.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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John posted The one constant through this time has been this administration's hostility to business.
Then why is business doing so well? And which policies exactly are you speaking of? You make a lot of vague statements and anecdotal arguments.
John continued While the administration's defenders stubbornly cling to their fantasy that the regulations and actions of this administration have had only a positive effect on employment, the statistics say otherwise.
Which statistics exactly? And negative effects on whom? And who is arguing that they have only had positive effects? The conversation is completely polarized because Republicans insist on having a conversation that exists solely of "Obama: Literally Satan? Or Literally Hitler?" Straw man arguments like "the administration's defenders stubbornly cling to their fantasy that the regulations and actions of this administration have had only a positive effect on employment" only encourage these destructive, rooting for "my side" conversations and all of it assumes that Presidents have profound, short-term effects on employment. Economists have made quite clear that Presidents do not have the kind of effect on economic growth and employment that the media and political classes like to portray.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Just for shits n giggles I hopped on the BLS website (which has a great labor report search tool you can play with here) and excluded the worst bits of job loss from Bush's terms (June 2003-January 2008) and Obama's terms (March 2010 to Present).
Bush jobs excluding the worst parts of the beginning and end of his terms: 8,208,000
Obama jobs excluding the worst part of the beginning of his term: 13,005,000
If you include all the job losses that one could easily blame on their predecessors, the gap stays consistent:
Bush total net jobs: 2,050,000
Obama total net jobs: 7,881,000
John, can you explain to me how Bush policies, sold as "pro-growth, pro-business and pro-employment" by the political right result in more than 5 million fewer jobs than the "anti-business" policies of Obama? You said the statistics bore out the opposite. I'm just not seeing it.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Cowboy,
Read the article on legal pot in Mexico.
No mention of banana jam that I could see.
Urban dictionary described it as a sexual practice though.
how was that wench you shagged last nite?" -"wor very good mate..great Bananajam though!".
Care to elucidate?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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High desert I think john was eluding to GM bailout..
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 07:35am PT
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Remember all those people who lost their jobs when GM didn't go out of business?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:35am PT
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Obama total net jobs: 7,881,000
Yet not one mention of all them folks in this country that are no longer counted in the Labor Dept's monthly Jobs report as UE'd all because they just plain gave up looking for a job and are not recorded as such over the past six or so years.
Or all them in the 18-22 y/o age group that have yet to even find Full-Time employment. Especially in the Latino and Black inner city communities.
Oh how the "Numbers" propaganda game is played.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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Oh well Chief, soon you will have to say "hail to the chief" to a woman and a democrat at that.......should be fun!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:46am PT
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you will have to say "hail to the chief" to a woman and a democrat
Says who... YOU!
I thought this was a Republic and NOT a Autocracy. Guess I thought wrong. That is of course according to you and your croanie LOONS, Jim.
should be fun!
YUP! It sure will be when the DOJ Indicts your hero and off into the wind she goes. Bye Bye....
PS: Even if she beats the charges, she is toast. Burnt to a crisp toast to say the least. Oh the ironee in that.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:49am PT
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High desert u got me..
what did happen to those banks that got bail out.. !
Edit: the it's bush Cheney fault rhetoric is Zzzzz!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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Chief posted Yet not one mention of all them folks in this country that are no longer counted in the Labor Dept's monthly Jobs report as UE'd all because they just plain gave up looking for a job and are not recorded as such over the past six or so years.
The labor force participation rate is down but that doesn't effect the raw numbers it effects percentages. No matter how you want to cut it Bush presided over about 5+ million fewer job gains which does not support the hypothesis that John keeps pushing. There is a much more nuanced and interesting conversation to be had here, but continuing to quote the various economic statistics that have been cherry picked to support anti-Obama talking points definitely isn't one of them.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Bushman wrote:
It occurred to me that this might be the reason why so many politicians and military planners have decided to stay in such prolonged wars in places such as Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan with little or no positive end result.
Yeah, look at the 40 year wars on drugs and poverty.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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pyro asked what did happen to those banks that got bail out.. !
They merged and grew up to be crazy successful megacorps cranking out huge profits for their shareholders and executives while drowning under the oppressive anti-business holocaust that is Dodd-Frank.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-banking-industry-profits-racing-to-near-record-levels-1407773976
Let's all stop with the media-driven, party-created talking points, ok? You are all interesting people in your own right with far more intelligence and insight than this kind of meme regurgitation demonstrates (and I'm talking to everyone, not just the rightward leaning posters).
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:49am PT
High desert u got me..
what did happen to those banks that got bail out.. !
Edit: the it's bush Cheney fault rhetoric is Zzzzz!
What happend, you don't know?
They paid all the money back. Got a problem with that?
And yes, the Repub Recession caused the economy including car sales to a severely contract
including car sales.
Why is this hard to understand?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:24am PT
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The labor force participation rate is down but that doesn't effect the raw numbers it effects percentages
How in the world can that be if they are not even included in them raw numbers. The actual number that reflects the lost labor force % is not truly known. They have NO way of accurately recording that.
The startling percentage of young adults (18-24 y/o) that can't even get a full-time job is disgusting and is the worst in over 60 years.
Just 54 percent of Americans ages 18 to 24 currently have jobs, according to a study released Thursday by the Pew Research Center. That's the lowest employment rate for this age group since the government began keeping track in 1948. And it's a sharp drop from the 62 percent who had jobs in 2007 -- suggesting the recession is crippling career prospects for a broad swath of young people who were still in high school or college when the downturn began. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/employment-rate-young-adults_n_1264241.html
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/report/2013/04/05/59428/the-high-cost-of-youth-unemployment/
So much for all that "Hope" shet....
EDIT: Great POINT Pyro concerning the local SMALL banks issue. That too is way pathetic and only indicates more sheisterism on the part of the current Administration.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Chief posted How in the world can that be if they are not even included in them raw numbers.
You're right Chief, sorry. Not enough coffee yet this morning. Still, my point is that this kind of "look this number is lower therefore Obama is Satan" conversation isn't very productive. It's exactly the kind of conversation that political parties want us having because then we aren't talking about the real reasons why labor force participation is down. "Obama's terrible policies" is a lazy, garbage answer that assumes the Presidency has vastly greater powers over the economy than actual economists say that they do. I'm pretty sure Obama didn't sign the "Send lots of jobs to Asia" executive order and the idea that someone feels badly about running a business because of Obama so they use technology to increase productivity instead of hiring more people seems a little silly.
pyro posted This is my favorite time in Obama history..
This is when Obama voters kinda felt tricked
Um....no? I don't recall a mainstay of Obama's candidacy being an end to earmarks. That was a Boehner thing. Obama voters were far more upset about the lack of a public option in the ACA, the expansion of drone usage and the inability to close Gitmo.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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So much for the hope shet..
+1 chief
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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Quite a few folks have commented elsewhere that earmarks might have made for better governing. Congresspeople were more likely to cooperate when they were rewarded with treats for their districts. No one cooperates anymore.
Not sure how I feel about that, but it's an interesting point.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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dirtbag posted Quite a few folks have commented elsewhere that earmarks might have made for better governing. Congresspeople were more likely to cooperate when they were rewarded with treats for their districts. No one cooperates anymore.
Not sure how I feel about that, but it's an interesting point.
This has come up a lot and it's an interesting thing to consider. Boehner saw it as inherently corrupt and wanted to get rid of it (which he did and kudos to him for caring). A few years ago, NPR did a great report on how instead of earmarks Congressmen now just lobby the various governmental agencies directly. Want a bridge built in your district? Make it clear to the Transportation Department that this is a priority of yours and your support for their budgetary and regulatory needs depends on their support for your bridge. At least earmarks were far more transparent by contrast.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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Yet not one mention of all them folks in this country that are no longer counted in the Labor Dept's monthly Jobs report as UE'd all because they just plain gave up looking for a job and are not recorded as such over the past six or so years.
EXACTLY the way it was measured for Reagun, Nixun, Both Shrubs, even Ferd.
EXACTLY, you lying pig.
So you want to make up a new system, for the sole and only purpose of artificially making the Gov't of the US look bad.
If you were still enlisted, I'd be in favor of a General Discharge, so you wouldn't be feeding off the system you hate so much....
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:16am PT
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Man, Sketch...that looks terrible. Wages are at best flat, in spite of this 'recovery'.
Why would that be? Corporations being resistant to paying fair wages? Or should the gov't step in and help create a more level playing ground for labor?
Such a tough question. Of course, we know where Republicans land...'f*#k 'em! I've got mine! They just need to borrow $20K from their parents, and start their own business!'
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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oh come on
who cares, other than them, about some 4 million auto industry jobs saved?
the important thing is that government should not have stepped in and lent money
businesses in America should all be treated the same, no matter the size
did I get a "bailout" when my business had some hard times, NO
and if I can't have it then no one else should
and that's why I am a Registered Republican and proud of it
so fuk all you see a problem and fix it stupid Democrats
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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Such a tough question. Of course, we know where Republicans land...'f*#k 'em! I've got mine! They just need to borrow $20K from their parents, and start their own business!'
So, now it is the governments job to loan money for risky business ventures?
Really?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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Lol norton +1
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 12, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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HDDJ and Pyro:
The numbers to which I was alluding are those from the BLS time series on total employed as a percentage of population. I posted the link when I made the observation, but I'll post it again for those who missed it:
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000
Please explain, again, how this demonstrates workers were better off under the current administration than under previous ones.
John
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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So, now it is the governments job to loan money for risky business ventures?
well no, not the government's "job" to lend money as you put it
but, governments on almost all levels from city to county to state to Federal
in all the states do in fact get involved in making loans to many businesses
and have been doing so for a very long time
have you heard of the Small Business Administration for example?
are students a risky business venture when they are given Student Loans that are
backed by government?
sure those loans ARE risky, both both political parties have decided that an educated population is very good for both current and future economic growth
someone have a problem with all this? Then vote your own congressman out
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 12, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
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Please explain, again, how this demonstrates workers were better off under the current administration than under previous ones.
John, the obvious answer is that they aren't. The corporations have a monopoly on the government right now, and until we end that we will continue to get the short end of the stick.
Corporations need a voice in government, they just don't need to be the only voice.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 12, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
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Why would that be? Corporations being resistant to paying fair wages? Or should the gov't step in and help create a more level playing ground for labor?
Apogee, the wages paid as a percent of GDP usually depend on three factors:
1. The average wage;
2. The total hours worked; and
3. The total amount of non-wage GDP (includes investment, change in inventories, net exports, etc.)
As you can see from the chart shown, as employment improves, the share of wages paid as a percent of GDP improves, ceteris paribus. The problem we face now isn't that "corporations don't want to pay fair wages," it's that corporations don't want to hire as much as they have in other postwar recoveries. It's worthwhile to ask why that is.
Some possibilities:
1. It was cheaper to hire outside the U.S.;
2. There were no new opportunities to make money by hiring more U.S. workers;
3. The projections of demand for sales of goods and services did not justify increasing production; and
4. There was insufficient capital to finance increased production (and therefore, increased hiring).
I use largely past tense because, if the latest monthly numbers are correct, we finally have a month with robust employment growth. Nonetheless, the history of this recovery has been one of very modest employment increase - and downward revisions of employment. I'm hoping that's no longer the case.
Back to analysis of the various factors, the first factor certainly plays a big part in some industries. Mass-produced items for which transportation costs form a small percentage of the total selling price tend to be manufactured outside the U.S., because unit labor costs are cheaper. Too many, however, confuse wage rates with unit labor cost. The latter is the variable that determines where the product gets made. In general, American workers are the most productive in the world for goods whose final sales are in the American market. This is because shipping costs are (obviously) lowest for that class of goods. Also usually, investment in plant, equipment and training makes the American worker able to turn out a higher volume of goods per hour.
Low volume production often starts in the U.S. because that's where the innovation took place, and is the easiest place to get manufacturing started. Once volume gets high, however, the lower wage rates abroad start to beat out the other factors.
The history of climbing hardware follows this script pretty well. When I started climbing, the hardware was made in such low volumes that a relatively small shop (e.g. Chouinard and Frost in Ventura) could turn out enough to satisfy the entire demand. It would have been economically insane for Chouinard Equipment to try to manufacture pitons and carabiners abroad, because the effort to manage and control manufacturing would cost more than the savings in wage rates. As climbing's popularity increased, though, the volume grew to the point where manufacturers found it economical to make some gear abroad. On the whole, we lost some manufacturing jobs (e.g. CCH "original" Aliens vs. current new ones from Fixe). On the whole, though, there are a vastly larger number of Americans who make their living from making, buying, selling and using climbing equipment than there were when I last visited the hallowed ground in Ventura.
I am unaware of any hard data showing the extent to which shifting manufacturing locations has resulted in a net gain or loss of jots. It's usually easy to see which industries lost jobs, but much harder to measure which ones gained. I suspect it was a net loss duing the "recovery," but not nearly the net loss the neo-mercantilists (e.g. Trump, Sanders) allege.
THe next factor, viz. no new opportunities, was doubtless true during the steep slide, but should not have been true for five years afterward. Businesses invest to make money. A regulatory climate that treats making money as suspicious and inherently criminal does not lend itself to businesses that want to make money. This administration has, among other things, taken the following unilateral action, with no support - or often explicit opposition - from the legislative branch:
1. It has interpreted labor laws in a way hostile to employers who don't acquiesce to all union demands. The bullying relating to Boeing's proposed building of a new plant outside Washington State, the decision overturning decades of precedent relating to the employer status of franchisors, and innumerable other decisions designed to reduce business profits make employment of U.S. workers less attractive;
2. The EPA has interpreted environmental laws in a way that vastly increases energy and compliance costs throughout the economy. Fortunately for the economy, the private sector was able to reduce energy costs by increasing production of petroleum - despite, not because of, administration policy. Nonetheless, the uncreatainty (at best) over environmental compliance issues makes manufacturing expansion in the U.S. less attractive. The recent denial of the KXL Pipline, though economically meaningless at the moment, makes doing business in the U.S. under the current administration look a whole lot more like doing business in a two-bit dictatorship, rather than in one under the rule of law;
3. The SEC has turned into an agency distincly more friendly to the trial bar than to investors or public companies, making organization of businesses in the U.S. less attractive;
4. IRS enforcement has been arbitrary and politicized in a way that exceeds even the excesses of the Nixon administration. In addition, U.S. tax laws make investing foreign profits in the U.S. unattractive, thereby causing an incentive for businesses to restructure as foreign organizations; and
5. The FCC has chosen to regulate the internet as a public utility, despite any clear statutory mandate to do so.
These are just a few of the anti-business actions this administration has taken. When one adds the effects of increased regulation compliance costs to the new regulations under Dodd-Frank, many of which aren't even in place yet, anyone who understands operating a private business should have little trouble seeing how the costs of doing so have increased dramatically under this administration.
The lack of increased demand has several causes, but mostly it duplicates the factors set forth in the previous causes. To the extent investors in equities have increased their incomes, the loss of interest income probably more than offsets that increase.
The lack of capital is a mixed bag. Many of the largest corporations are more liquid now than they've ever been, and therefore don't need the capital they used to need to expand. I don't think the same can be said for start-up businesses and those dependent on smaller financial institutions for some (or in the case of many farmers, all) of their operating financing. Unfortunately for me, I don't have quick access to any objective measure of the availability of business financing for smaller private firms. I do know that compliance costs for the six or seven smaller banks my firm represents have increased greatly under Dodd-Frank and CFPB regulations, even though those banks don't make enormous numbers of consumer loans. We also represent several SBA lenders who have noted less funds availability, although I have no reliable information about why.
In short, though, it's not a matter of paying "fair wages," except to Gary, who doesn't believe that capital, entrepreneurial risk, or non-labor inputs deserve any return. (Gary, you know I kid, right?)
I can't resist adding, though that I find Trump's comments on this issue particularly hilarious. He says we should deport everyone staying in this country illegally, because they depress domestic wages. He then argues, in the same debate, that domestic wages are too high and make us uncompetitive. This is one of those rare situations where two, seemingly diametrically opposed, statements are both wrong. And you wonder why I'd vote for Hillary over Trump?
John
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 12, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
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The problem we face now isn't that "corporations don't want to pay fair wages," it's that corporations don't want to hire as much as they have in other postwar recoveries. It's worthwhile to ask why that is.
Some possibilities:
1. It was cheaper to hire outside the U.S.;
2. There were no new opportunities to make money by hiring more U.S. workers;
3. The projections of demand for sales of goods and services did not justify increasing production; and
4. There was insufficient capital to finance increased production (and therefore, increased hiring).
5. Greed
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Please explain, again, how this demonstrates workers were better off under the current administration than under previous ones.
Easy, John.
What you see at the last part of the Bush administration, is a slope of job loss that looks like a waterfall. What you see when President Obama takes charge, is a leveling off of that. Had not that happened, you'd have been looking at a very different part of that graph post 2009.
And you can say that it wasn't due to him.
However, you might want to recall that Marvelous Mitt made a campaign promise. His promise was that by the end of his first term, the unemployment rate (the one measured the same way for 50 years) would be down to 8% !!!!
So it is easy to see what the GOP had planned, which was for the curve to go much lower!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
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IRS enforcement has been arbitrary and politicized in a way that exceeds even the excesses of the Nixon administration.
Clearly, you were not practicing law THEN.
THEN, we had the President PERSONALLY targeting individuals and companies and ordering the IRS to audit and harass them.
That has certainly not happened now, it has not even been alleged.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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EXACTLY the way it was measured for Reagun, Nixun, Both Shrubs, even Ferd.
EXACTLY, you lying pig.
So you want to make up a new system, for the sole and only purpose of artificially making the Gov't of the US look bad.
Oh, and what part of this so dismal "Recorded" statistic did you NOT get, Big Boy KenM...
Just 54 percent of Americans ages 18 to 24 currently have jobs, according to a study released Thursday by the Pew Research Center. That's the lowest employment rate for this age group since the government began keeping track in 1948. And it's a sharp drop from the 62 percent who had jobs in 2007 -- suggesting the recession is crippling career prospects for a broad swath of young people who were still in high school or college when the downturn began. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/employment-rate-young-adults_n_1264241.html
According to clownazzes as yourself KENM, that's quite OK. Fk the youth of America. They don't need to work nor have a career. The Gov't will take care of em.
This speaks tons about your POTUS KenM....
A higher percentage of children live in poverty now than did during the Great Recession, according to a new report from the Annie E. Casey Foundation released Tuesday.
About 22% of children in the U.S. lived below the poverty line in 2013, compared with 18% in 2008, the foundation's 2015 Kids Count Data Book reported. In 2013, the U.S. Department of Human and Health Service's official poverty line was $23,624 for a family with two adults and two children. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/20/more-children-living-poverty-now-than-during-recession/30415391/
Oh how all the "Hope" shet takes care of the young and the children of America.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
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I'm learning so much from this.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
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This is the total insanity of the bullshet propaganda that you Liberal's are inciting in the heads of the youth in this nation. And they are believing every word or it without even thinking.
Unfkingbelievable.....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Cavuto: "So your friends will have no problem reaching a point in their career's where they will pay 90% of their income in taxes to pay for all this?"
Mullen: "Well, yeah. They won't have any problem with that."
Can any of you LOOOOOONS please tell us how all this shet you all are promoting is going to get paid for? Anyone???
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 12, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 12, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
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TNT commute.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 12, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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7:20 film
Crankaloon posts 4 min later.
Real "progressive" mind there.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 12, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^ Pretty much what Berning Man wants.
The "New Normal" TGT.... the "New Normal".
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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This is the total insanity of the bullshet propaganda that you Liberal's are inciting in the heads of the youth in this nation. And they are believing every word or it without even thinking.
It's good to see that the wackfest right wing has found their level of discourse with late-teen idealists.
That leaves lots of time for the adults to actually consider things.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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Is it wrong to enjoy the tea partiers gnash their teeth on the forum? It's almost like they can sense the impending disaster that's about to befall their looney tunes party. Thankfully, the nation will be better when the big shakeout happens.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
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This is starting to look like a repeat of the Regan revolution.
You might try talking to a few millennials.
While most of them like the rest of the populace are lost in their social media and trivial addictions, the more engaged ones that will make a difference, see the selfish snow flakes for what they are.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
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46 million Americans live below the poverty line...Does anyone need more proof that capitalism in America has turned into a disgraceful failure...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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That leaves lots of time for the adults to actually consider things.
Ah, Mullen is a "Voting Adult", KenM. As are the "million" other students that she organized to march for the same dimwit ideological programs she can't explain how and who will pay for them.
Put your glasses on KenM. Ooops.. you already have them on. Damn.
46 million Americans live below the poverty line...Does anyone need more proof that capitalism in America has turned into a disgraceful failure...
5.8 million more since 2008 RJ. Does anyone need more proof that all them liberal "Hope" programs haven't worked. Especially for the children of this county!
A higher percentage of children live in poverty now than did during the Great Recession, according to a new report from the Annie E. Casey Foundation released Tuesday.
About 22% of children in the U.S. lived below the poverty line in 2013, compared with 18% in 2008, the foundation's 2015 Kids Count Data Book reported. In 2013, the U.S. Department of Human and Health Service's official poverty line was $23,624 for a family with two adults and two children.
Is it wrong to enjoy the tea partiers gnash their teeth on the forum
And who may that be, Crankaloon?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
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Forget all this economic crap, the real threat to nation, our children, our religion and our morality, is the outrageous War on Christmas as demonstrated by the Starbucks coffee cup. Please join future president, reality show TV star, luxury real estate developer and high quality wall-builder, Donald John Trump, and boycott these godless heathens.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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Starbucks? What's that...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
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5.8 million more since 2008 RJ. Does anyone need more proof that all them liberal "Hope" programs haven't worked. Especially for the children of this county!
It is true that the programs haven't worked the way that Repugs like Chief would want. This 5.8 mill have not been eradicated, and removed from the gene pool, purifying the race.
Of course, the Chief sounds better in the original German.....
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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Repugs like Chief...
There ya go again KENM.
Nope, NOT a REpug. Never have been actually. Was an IND, then re-registered as a DEM up until last Feb when I changed back to IND and ignorantly voted for Obama, twice. Both times I believed that he'd come through with his "Hope" promises. Both times he has yet to deliver. Go figure.
Now, try again, Doc... 1/10 so far.
This 5.8 mill have not been eradicated....
Have you been sticking your head up DRF's azz, KenM?
That just lowered your score back to, 0/10.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
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Many here have said that Bush was just a puppet for some backroom secret interests.
Others have said that Obama is just a puppet for some backroom secret interests.
So the president is just a puppet anyhow?
Besides that, the entrenched bureaucracy of government just rolls along under it's own momentum and agenda regardless of which party is in power.
If that's all true, then what we really need is to elect the person who will do what America really wants...
Entertain us!
And it can be a win/win if The White House also becomes America's favorite reality TV show.
Practically everyone living below the poverty line already has a big screen TV so we wouldn't have to spring for any extra Obama TV's.
The cabinet could be filled with world policy experts who already live in Hollywood.
That's right, into your living rooms each night, the trials and tribulations, the joys and frustrations, of the first family.
What could be better?
I can hear it now:
Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present: President Kardashian.
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Ay Aye
Social climber
MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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Torper Sutats;
Soon forward apparatus of human erstwhile political maneuverings of great boss describe to android overlord the mating humanoid species negative. Please to make leisure transition.
-Fead Yk Op
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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It remains to be proven, if the US electorate, will elect a woman. In 2008, the "3 am Phone Call" ad, didn't benefit Romney but it gave the election, to Barack Obama. 51+% of the electorate, is women.
When the water heater broke and I was away, my wife bypassed a Woman and went to find a Man. It was an interesting lesson.
In Europe, where they have had many female Heads of State, a tone deaf Left, continues to double down on the migrant nightmare, using women as cannon fodder for their agenda. In many places, women are afraid to go out now. Reminds me of "Stay the Course". Hard to believe.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:05am PT
Ha ha ha, I predicted this months ago:
"According to other Republicans, some in the party establishment are so desperate to change the dynamic that they are talking anew about drafting Romney — despite his insistence that he will not run again. Friends have mapped out a strategy for a late entry to pick up delegates and vie for the nomination in a convention fight, according to the Republicans who were briefed on the talks, though Romney has shown no indication of reviving his interest."
They are right to be concerned. If Marcomentum or Jebstablishment is going to happen, it needs to get going. The first primaries are nearly upon us, and as the article points out, folks tune out politics (as they should) during the holidays. While I still think Rubio will be their guy, there is a real possibility that trump or Carson will win.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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John posted As you can see from the chart shown, as employment improves, the share of wages paid as a percent of GDP improves, ceteris paribus. The problem we face now isn't that "corporations don't want to pay fair wages," it's that corporations don't want to hire as much as they have in other postwar recoveries. It's worthwhile to ask why that is.
John, you make some great points and ask some great questions, but it troubles me that your point requires skating by any explanation of why "corporations don't want to pay fair wages." What evidence are you considering to even begin overlooking the idea that companies are able to pay less for more and are shifting costs to their employees without fear? Without addressing this the rest of your argument is specious. "Cause John said so" isn't really cutting it.
Sure looks to me like despite paying less for healthcare overall, employers are making their employees share a higher portion of the cost. Can you explain how that isn't exactly what you described couldn't possibly be part of the problem?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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The simple answer is that both employers and employees are paying more for health care. The fact that employees are paying a higher share of the total bill than they did previously doesn't mean that employers are paying less money.
As I've argued for about as long as I've been on this forum, we have a most bizarre and inefficient system of paying for health care that is really a relic of high taxes during World War II. If your employer hires a third party to pay for your health care, the cost is deductible from dollar one. If you pay your bills yourself, those payments are not deductible until they exceed 6% of your adjusted gross income. Add to that distortion the substitution of the tort system for freedom of contract in health care, and you have a system with built-in bias toward high costs and inefficiency.
Instead of doing something to change it, the Democrats - alone - passed Obamacare. I, and most other opponents of that legislation, predicted that this would raise costs without improving care. Proponents of the legislation said it would save money. All it really did was raise costs for those already covered, while leaving the exchanges with insufficient premiums and/or inferior provider panels. And, of course, there was the lie that "If you like your doctor/plan, you can keep your doctor/plan."
Long story less long, the policies of the Democrats did nothing to lower the cost - or even the trend in costs - of health care. Employers pay more money, and so do employees.
The real question I have is what constitutes a fair wage? For that matter, what constitutes a fair price? Most of the discussion I see on these topics reminds me of what I like to call student economic morality, i.e. my landlord is greedy because he or she wants to charge as much rent as they can get for my apartment. I want to get as much apartment as I can get for my money, but I'm not greedy.
Most people I know go to work because they determine that they are better off doing so than not doing so. If this is a voluntary transaction (and after the 13th Amendment, the only involuntary servitude is in prison), and there is no law requiring you to work, tell me how the wage is unfair.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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John posted The simple answer is that both employers and employees are paying more for health care. The fact that employees are paying a higher share of the total bill than they did previously doesn't mean that employers are paying less money.
Except that the data I provided showed exactly that. Employers' costs have basically flattened while employees' have continued to rise. Meanwhile, median income during the same period of time has gone down about $5,000. Corporate profits and overall business health has grown significantly over this period, apparently at great cost to the average American.
John continued As I've argued for about as long as I've been on this forum, we have a most bizarre and inefficient system of paying for health care that is really a relic of high taxes during World War II. If your employer hires a third party to pay for your health care, the cost is deductible from dollar one. If you pay your bills yourself, those payments are not deductible until they exceed 6% of your adjusted gross income. Add to that distortion the substitution of the tort system for freedom of contract in health care, and you have a system with built-in bias toward high costs and inefficiency.
And as I've described repeatedly, while that may be a basic unfairness in the way that healthcare is provided, it is not itself the root driver of healthcare cost increases. You must really be emotionally attached to that viewpoint to stick to it so consistently. Tort reform is almost a rounding error in the face of overall healthcare costs. I've provided numerous reports (CBO, etc) showing how it's not true and you've ignored them.
John posted I, and most other opponents of that legislation, predicted that this would raise costs without improving care.
Obamacare has, in fact, improved care. Costs increases have, in fact, been reduced. Easily verifiable. It's not a perfect law and was not my best case scenario but it is also suffering from the fact Republicans refuse to make basic fixes. I'm sure something better could have come out of it but Republicans decided that abandoning their own ideas would be better for them politically so here we are. Hopefully it fails and then we can just go single payer, a demonstrably more efficient and quality driven system by any measure.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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"Instead of doing something to change it, the Democrats - alone - passed Obamacare. I, and most other opponents of that legislation, predicted that this would raise costs without improving care. "
Democrats...and Americans in general, according to most polls...preferred a single payer option or opening medicare to all. Republicans resist this, and any kind of change to the current system, whatsoever. The ACA is far from ideal, but it was progress in the direction of fixing a f*#ked up system.
John, Republicans have had NO INTEREST in the US healthcare or insurance system for decades. Any of the hand-wringing whining that Republicans did about the ACA is pretty meaningless to any thoughtful, aware person when we all know they have done diddly-squat to make any real changes on their own, and had shite for ideas during Obama's effort to do something.
The oft-repeated cartoon, that remains entirely true:
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
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John posited The real question I have is what constitutes a fair wage? For that matter, what constitutes a fair price? Most of the discussion I see on these topics reminds me of what I like to call student economic morality, i.e. my landlord is greedy because he or she wants to charge as much rent as they can get for my apartment. I want to get as much apartment as I can get for my money, but I'm not greedy.
The problem here is that you have supplanted "student economic principles" for morality. Economic conservatives like to take certain economic concepts as moral truths. Trying to get the highest possible price for a product may in fact be greedy. You know that being "greedy" is bad and that you are a good person therefore you can't possibly be greedy, you're just obeying "fundamental economic laws of supply and demand."
The economic question is "what is the maximum price I can charge for this product?" The moral question is "what is the maximum good I can do with this product?" Sometimes the answers overlap.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
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Everyone is correct about the healthcare system.
Problem is, the politicians are in the pockets of big business and tort attorneys, which means that there will never be any truly meaningful changes.
You gotta get greedy businesses and greedy lawyers out of the decision-making process.
Healthcare is NOT business. The business model is not applicable to healthcare. I don't care what any fukking MBA tells you, the incentives in business create all the wrong policies in healthcare. Capitalism is NOT applicable to everything.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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I just can't come to grips with the idea of healthcare being driven primarily about profits. There's a morality disconnect in the very premise.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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I just can't come to grips with the idea of healthcare being driven primarily about profits. This is EXACTLY what drives all of the WRONG policies in healthcare. What's good for business is not what's good for healthcare policy and practice. Patients are NOT customers.
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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JohnE.. serious question
Which is better?
A. Trying to fix what we now have.
B. Going back to what we had.
If you answer B, then when are the Republicans going to help those with pre existing conditions get affordable healthcare?
My preference would be..
C. Single payer, take the profit motive out of health insurance.
Which party is more likely to offer that?
I believe that when the Republicans start heading in that direction, then the Dems will quickly move in that direction also. But as long as they have to defend Obamacare, then things will just get worse.
But I would also be interested in what your design for the future of healthcare would be. What we had, or do you have something else in mind?
D. new solution.. ( what is it )
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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Here is how Republican healthcare works:
1. When you get sick, your health insurance gets cancelled
2. You can't get any health insurance after that because of "pre-existing conditions."
3. So you go to the E.R. for everything because you'll get treated no matter what
4. The hospital writes-off the "indigent" care and passes the costs onto people who still have health insurance, and to the taxpayers
5. Hospital and insurance CEOs get rich
6. The average American goes into bankruptcy from medical bills and ends up on welfare
7. People with health insurance oppose universal healthcare because they don't want to pay for anyone else's care
8. ^^^^ But they already are
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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Try to find a coherent policy proposal by the Republican-held congress. They've held both houses for a year now. Got one?
Make a case for one the Republican frontrunner's plans - one that isn't one or two paragraphs like "It'll be great, lemme tell ya, great", or "let the private sector sort it out".
Dare you.
SLR is spot-on.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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HDDJ
The economic question is "what is the maximum price I can charge for this product?" The moral question is "what is the maximum good I can do with this product?" Sometimes the answers overlap.
That is an excellent point. The question then becomes, how much freedom do individuals or merchants have in determining where the overlap is?
Certainly merchants have gouged the public in times of scarcity, and shown little morality in those instances.
Did they break laws?
What laws do we have on the books for that?
What laws do we need to implement for that?
The devil is in the details.
Edit
I don't know the answers to healthcare.
I do know that it costs too much now and there is a moral argument to be made for single payer.
However, given human nature and the hypochondria of too many, combined with doctors, nurses and everyone in the system wanting more pay, more benefits, it's easy to see costs becoming unsustainable.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:51pm PT
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"Here is how Republican healthcare works:"
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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And when they lose their homes.. Republicans will make it illegal to be homeless.
Welcome to hell…
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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Larry posted That is an excellent point. The question then becomes, how much freedom do individuals or merchants have in determining where the overlap is?
Certainly merchants have gouged the public in times of scarcity, and shown little morality in those instances.
Did they break laws?
What laws do we have on the books for that?
What laws do we need to implement for that?
There have been (and possibly still are) laws against war profiteering in the past. The problem is when the merchants have such power in making the laws and when the lawmakers have bought into the idea that economic concepts have replaced basic morality, there's really nowhere to go.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Except that the data I provided showed exactly that. Employers' costs have basically flattened while employees' have continued to rise. Meanwhile, median income during the same period of time has gone down about $5,000. Corporate profits and overall business health has grown significantly over this period, apparently at great cost to the average American.
HDDJ,
One of us must be reading it wrong. The chart you posted showed the rate of change. It said health care costs are up 14% for employers, and 21% for employees currently. I believe I said that the costs were higher for both. Did I misread your chart?
John M,
I think the Republicans need to propose more than mere repeal of Obamacare. I posted in great detail the changes I would make while the Democrats and the health care providers gave us the Affordable [sic] Care Act, and don't care to repeat them yet again now. I see no point in Congress doing anything now, since neither side has the votes to do any more than repeal the "Cadillac Tax," but I agree that the Republicans owe the American people a superior alternative to what we have now.
Apogee,
I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
That's also the key to answering HDDJ's question about where goods and services can produce the most good. Who gets to decide what constitutes the most good? I believe that the market, and every other human allocation mechanism, does so imperfectly, but the market does so less imperfectly than any other option.
It's getting close to my quitting time, and it's great climbing weather, so I'll sign off until Monday. Have at it.
John
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 13, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
The problem isn't those providing health care (doctors, nurses, or even hospitals) making a profit. The problem is the massive insurance industry that consumes billions of dollars without providing any health services.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 13, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
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The war has come to the West and we learned nothing on 9/11. In Europe. they're afraid to leave their homes as swarms of "migrants" run wild.
In the end, the candidate that makes people feel safe, will win. I hope the Democrats can adapt their message accordingly. But I'm not optimistic. The "blue pill" of ideology, is very strong. As is the red one.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
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"The problem isn't those providing health care (doctors, nurses, or even hospitals) making a profit. The problem is the massive insurance industry that consumes billions of dollars without providing any health services."
August West said it better than I did, John...my bad for being unclear.
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
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All Werner has to do is say "Crankloon" and you dance like a puppet. So who exactly is the whacko?
He has already said he isn't necessarily talking directly about you, but about the whole mindless attitude of many people.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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You see what you want to see, John. That's your business as an enabler.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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John's pretty much right on, crankster...take it from someone who played that game with an infamous ST whacknut. It doesn't end, and no-one wins.
People push buttons to get a reaction. When they get a reaction, it just confirms that they will get another reaction when they do it again. Just sayin'.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
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Whackjob advice taken, app.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
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I do know that it costs too much now and there is a moral argument to be made for single payer.
However, given human nature and the hypochondria of too many, combined with doctors, nurses and everyone in the system wanting more pay, more benefits, it's easy to see costs becoming unsustainable.
Actually, the way forward is pretty clear and simple: Medicare for all,perhaps phased in.
The amount of administration and paperwork with most insurance is not to be believed. The overt cost of commercial healthcare insurance runs about 25% of the healthcare premium. (For example, when you go to an insurance broker, and buy healthcare insurance, the first 4 months or so of premium is paid to the broker. Not one band-aid is brought.)
There are also covert costs, such as the cost of administration of medical groups, which can run another 20% of the remaining 75%. And other covert costs, as well.
Bottom line, only about 50% of the healthcare insurance premium dollar goes to pay for any healthcare. That's the inefficiency of the system.
Let's compare that to Medicare. Administrative expenses (depending upon what you include and how you figure it) runs from 3% to 10%.
So, if you convert people on commercial insurance to Medicare, you generate a FORTY PERCENT SURPLUS, using the worst case scenario.
On top of which, you eliminate some medical systems: Work Comp Medical (which is a BIG number), you eliminate Med Pay on auto insurance, you should be able to eliminate a lot of the VA system (but not all---there is some specialized systems worth saving)
Basically, it pretty much pays for itself.
Every doctor in America is already signed up. Every citizen is already in the system (SS#). It could be put into place tomorrow, and be running on monday.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
John, you are setting up a straw argument. NO ONE is advocating that those providing health care shouldn't make a healthy profit. NO ONE.
But those providing healthcare INSURANCE are not providing HEALTH CARE!!!!
Let the "best and brightest" work on curing cancer, not on how best to separate your money from your wallet, as they are now.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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Big insurance companies need big government to insure their profits via law and regulation, but the "progressive" cure is more big government and more law and regulation.
What's that going to get you other than even more profits for big insurance,
Or a bloated bureaucracy that serves the same function and robs the system of efficiency at even bigger levels?
Who do you think will write those regulations?
K streets insurance elves wrote Obamacare.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
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Doh!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
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"K streets insurance elves wrote Obamacare."
That's totally true, TGT.
What was the Republican's suggestion?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 14, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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"All that matters is that you are alive....
You are alive, Captain."
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Nov 14, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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The ACA was supposed to have the best cost control system ever devised: Free Market Competition.
A Public Option.
The Private insurance companies would have to lower their prices to compete with a single payer system. You want better Insurance than Medicare? Then you can buy any plan you want, all options are available.
BUT, the 60th Senator needed to vote for the ACA was Joe Lieberman (d#@&%e), who was Not a Democrat, he was an Independent from Delaware. He said he would not vote for it Unless the public option was eliminated. He was also bought off by the big Delaware insurance Companies. It was Him alone that screwed it up for everyone.
There were only 58 Democratic Senators for the 27 working days when we had a filibuster proof majority, the other 2 were Independents.
So to say that it's Obama's fault that the ACA doesn't have cost controls is just another lie.
it was conservatives that wrote the bill, and conservatives that screwed it up, and conservatives that will still not take any action to implement cost controls
So if you don't like ObamaCare, you should focus your blame where the blame resides, on the Backs of the Republican Party that wouldn't come to rescue and vote for the bill with cost controls and a public option. They abandoned the people for political capital and cash.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 14, 2015 - 08:03am PT
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The ACA was supposed to have the best cost control system ever devised
world class web site
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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pyro posted world class web site
It was busted. It got fixed. Sebelius got canned. Millions of people signed up for health insurance. Health plans have proliferated. Is this really the best you've got?
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Jorroh
climber
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Nov 14, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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Not that it makes much difference Craig, but Connecticut
..where many of the big insurance companies are based.
Classic example of Senator supporting the narrow interests of a few of his biggest donors, as opposed to the best interests of the people of America.
The arguments against a public option where contradictory and, generally, incredibly lame.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 14, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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public option, you must mean the briefly discussed idea of creating a single payor
being the government program like Medicare that was rejected as unfeasible during the early drafting of the ACA?
even if such a program were actually added the mix it is very unlikely that it could have competed successfully against all the private plans as the entire concept of the ACA is to open private insurance markets across state lines
but consider this, the "public option" IS very much a huge part of the ACA
and that is the expansion of Medicaid to ten of millions of lower income Americans
this is single payer government insurance in its purest form, already in place
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2015 - 11:20am PT
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Norton posted public option, you must mean the briefly discussed idea of creating a single payor
being the government program like Medicare that was rejected as unfeasible during the early drafting of the ACA?
There was an extensively discussed public option that would have been available on all the exchanges but got torched by Lieberman. Single payer is politically unfeasible, not technically unfeasible.
Norton continued but consider this, the "public option" IS very much a huge part of the ACA
and that is the expansion of Medicaid to ten of millions of lower income Americans
this is single payer government insurance in its purest form, already in place
That is sort of true, except that states control Medicaid and it is only available to a certain class of Americans whereas a public option would have been available to everyone.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 14, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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Is this really the best you've got?
Um....no
Hidesert
I think you should have title this thread
"Desert DJ learning politics appreciation thread".. lol
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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The Dems scheduled their debate for a time when nobody would watch but thanks to the interwebs you can watch it anyway. Dickerson appears to be doing a great job but why they decided to fill 1/3 of the screen with garbage Twitter graphs I do not know:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 15, 2015 - 07:29am PT
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My grades:
O'Malley. B+
Sanders. B
Clinton. B-
Doubt it will change the race much. Lots of substantive exchanges and well moderated. I though Hillary was off her game, perhaps sitting on her lead and over-cautious. She's at her best when she's on offense. The 9/11, Wall St. answer was inartful.
Debates are live action, even the smartest people can make a mistake. Not easy stuff. It's good prep for the general election race and I expect Hillary to learn from last night.
Any of the 3 would make a better choice than the best of the GOP lot, however.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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I think Sanders continues to make it clear he doesn't actually want to be president, he wants to address economic inequality and is using a presidential campaign to achieve it. He couldn't have pivoted from Paris to economics any faster than he did. Axelrod had a good observation that Clinton appeared to be straddling being a candidate and being responsible potential president which I think obviously stifles her responses a bit. Clinton's responses about Paris and ISIL were pretty bad. I expected better.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 15, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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Can't disagree. I caught Axelrod's comment, as well. The point being president's have to use more cautious language than a candidate.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2015 - 07:50am PT
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bookmark this page
http://www.predictwise.com/
PredictWise polls are a cutting-edge methodology that allow us to quickly and repeatedly aggregate the expectations of individuals to create predictions that have been empirically proven to be more accurate than traditional polling methods or available prediction markets.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 15, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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also
keep an eye on the Iowa Electronic Market and Intrade
real people betting their own money on everything including politics
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 15, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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nice debate!?!
don't mention the 15dollar an hour increase Jeeze!
they looked and were mad at each other..
Hillary looked really angry when wall street was mentioned..
love the live twitter feeds gets Hillary to speak up instead of avoiding the question..
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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I'm pretty sure it was the moderator, John Dickerson, who did that, pyro. I wonder why Hillary didn't call him out for his "gotcha" questions?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired Climber
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Nov 15, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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Actually, Sanders scored a few points with me, and I thought OMalley did ok.
Of the two debates this week, it was nice to see one that was civil.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
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Agreed. I'm not saying that Sanders doesn't have some good positions or isn't a strong voice for his cause, I'm just saying that his cause is far too narrow for the presidency.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 15, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
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Norton, Intrade shut down.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 16, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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Christians committing terrorism, let's see....
The Crusades
The Inquisition
The Salem Witch Trials
Native Americans
The Portuguese in Africa
Robert E. Lee
The Serbs in Bosnia
To name only a few.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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dirtbag: It's not just Repubs, unfortunately. Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire has put Syrians on hold as well.
http://www.wmur.com/politics/gov-hassan-believes-feds-should-halt-acceptance-of-syrian-refugees/36479608
This is all political but also comes from the problem we have as Americans accepting risk. It is inevitable that we will be attacked in some manner by someone but it is not inevitable that we insist that this is a complete failure of our leaders. We cannot live in a free country without accepting risk. Right now we accept 30,000 gun related deaths a year as the price of widespread gun ownership. The idea that if a Syrian came over, grabbed a few guns and killed some people would be a failure of our refugee program as opposed to an expected outcome of our choices is ridiculous.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Yep, I heard about the dem governor going along with it.
Right now we accept 30,000 gun related deaths a year as the price of widespread gun ownership. The idea that if a Syrian came over, grabbed a few guns and killed some people would be a failure of our refugee program as opposed to an expected outcome of our choices is ridiculous.
Good point.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:53am PT
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Call for moment of silence for France provokes this from Turkish fans.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Brought to you by the "religion of peace"
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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So we've heard much of Islamo-terrorism.
Donini gave us examples of Christian terrorism.
How about secular authoritarian governments committing terrorism?
Communist Russia's starvation of 10+ million Ukrainians in the 1930's.
Nazi Germany's extermination of 6 million Jews in the 1940's.
Communist China's cultural revolutions in the 1950's and 1960's.
Communist Pol Pot's extermination of over 1 million SE Asians in the 1970's.
That's just to name a few...and in the 20th century, not a thousand years or hundreds of years before.
Is it possible that secular authoritarian governments killed more people in the 20th century than religion did in the previous 10 centuries?
Not sure I see us evolving out of this in my lifetime.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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Yeah, TGT...we should annihilate those Muslim warmongers! Every last one of them!
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:00am PT
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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what about 9/11 times a thousand? can we prevent that?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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I dunno, but the drumbeats from the Industrialized Military Complex & their political puppets are sure getting louder, aren't they?
A fear-driven public works right into the strategy...again.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:24am PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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TGT posted Brought to you by the "religion of peace"
I'm pretty sure TGT is a bot created to bluntly demonstrate confirmation bias.
Hermit: Ramirez cartoons are a study in oversimplified boneheadedness spelled out to appeal to everyone's inner 3rd grader. What happened to Al Qaeda when we "took out" the Taliban? The scattered and decentralized their network. One branch set up shop in Iraq and became Al Qaeda in Iraq. Some of them were too extreme for Al Qaeda (including their leader) and they split and became ISIL (which I'm now going to start calling Daesh). Daesh established itself, filled the vacuum created by the absence of governance and security in Iraq/Syria and now are branching out internationally. Do you really think that even if we could magically make Daesh territory vanish that the international threat would disappear? Displacing Daesh from holding land is obviously a priority but the idea that it would "prevent the next 9/11" is absurd.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:52am PT
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Hermit, TGT et al...You guys do know that the vast majority of ISIS victims are Muslims who have a very different view of Islam?
( no...you probably don't know that, or don't care.)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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^^^^^^ That's why Turkish football fans, when asked to observe a moment of silence last night
for France before a match, booed lustily throughout the 'moment'.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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It's either Islam or it's not.
I have different view of a stop sign.
I don't need to stop on Sundays ....
Rolls Eyes
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:04am PT
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Reilly, what's your point? The fact remains, Muslims are suffering in far greater numbers than anyone else because of religious differences with ISIS.
I have no idea why some Turks at that game behaved like as#@&%es. Maybe they have fundamentalist sympathies, maybe some simply hate France and prefer freedom
Fries.
We can try to lump all facets of Islam as a giant monolithic belief system, but that would be an enormous mistake.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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Yeah .... me not stopping at the stop sign on Sundays is an enormous mistake too :-)
OK I'll roll thru only on Mondays ....
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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For various reasons--and I'm not a Muslim so I can only begin to guess why--Sunnis and Shias, to name two groups--view the stop sign very differently.
They also roll their eyes in opposite directions.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Soccer fans are certainly a population I would most expect to behave in a respectful, orderly manned
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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Heh for bravecowboy!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Reza is amazing.
HDDJ, that is an amazing clip, well worth the 9+ minutes of my time.
TFPU...
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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Great post TGT. There is an excellent book on how soccer can give current political insight.
How Soccer Explains the World: An Unlikely Theory of Globalization by Franklin Foer.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Wow k-man, priceless indeed.
I don't even know where to begin with that one.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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The Reza Aslan video makes some great points.
The different factions of Islam mixed with dozens of different cultures create a complexity that seems lost on the popular culture of the West.
OTOH, even though Jihadist's make up a very small percentage of the world's Muslim population, there seems to be a lot of sentiment for their cause...demonstrated at the soccer match for one.
Weren't there thousands in the streets across the Muslim world, cheering after 9/11?
Still, it's important that we don't paint all Muslims the same just because of the hatred of a few.
So sad is the plight of the vast majority of Muslims, in those war zones, who are good and decent.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Noted cowards, France.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/18/france-says-it-will-take-30000-syrian-refugees-while-u-s-republicans-would-turn-them-away/
France says it will take 30,000 Syrian refugees, while U.S. Republicans would turn them away
In a move that puts the heated U.S. debate over taking in Syrian refugees in perspective, French President Francois Hollande declared on Wednesday that his country would accept 30,000 Syrian refugees over next two years. He announced this at a gathering of mayors from French cities, where he received a standing ovation.
Hollande said that "30,000 refugees will be welcomed over the next two years. Our country has the duty to respect this commitment." He indicated that resettled refugees would undergo rigorous security checks, according to ABC News. He said there would be a 50 million euro investment fund used to support housing for refugees.
Hollande observed that "some people say the tragic events of the last few days have sown doubts in their minds," referring to the cloud of suspicion that has fallen on the hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees who arrived at Europe's borders this year. Despite speculation, not one of the Paris attackers has so far been identified as a Syrian national.
[Were Syrian refugees involved in the Paris attacks? What we know and don't know]
Hollande said it was France's "humanitarian duty" to honor its commitments to refugees, even in the wake of the chilling terror attacks on Friday, claimed by the Islamic State, which killed at least 129 people.
"We have to reinforce our borders while remaining true to our values," the French president said.
A comparable size American refugee acceptance load based on population would be about 150,000.
A comparable size American refugee acceptance load based on GDP would be about 180,000.
A comparable size American refugee acceptance load based on the amount of sh#t talking Americans do about what pussies the French are would be about all the refugees. Literally all of them.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 10:47am PT
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It would probably make him a really bold climber.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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It is like how the family tolerates the odd cousin during the holidays..
be polite and understand that although he needs treatment he won't be getting any
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." - Seneca
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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Is it possible that secular authoritarian governments killed more people in the 20th century than religion did in the previous 10 centuries?
Not sure I see us evolving out of this in my lifetime.
That thought has been going through my mind, too, Larry, over the past several years. The demonizing of opponents continues unabated even in the "enlightened" west. According to the Democrats' presidential candidates, the enemy is the Republican party. To listen to Rush Limbaugh, et al., the enemy is all the RINO's, Democrats, "Feminazis," "Enviros," et al. Modern American politics has been an exercise in division and deomonization. While the latter is nothing new (see, e.g., the election of 1800), the overt division and implicit exclusion strikes me as a distinctly new and ominous development.
Then we get to college campuses, where the enemy is anyone who would dare present a contrary view. With the proliferation of transparently and proudly biased information sources, we can now just hear those with whom we agree, rather than bother listening to contrary views. After all, those in power find free speech a nuisance at best.
For all the griping I read on ST about our political and other OT threads, they serve at least one good purpose: we can post opposing views. While some will ignore views of those they know to oppose their viewpoints, sometime we actually have a dialog. If more people understood that ad hominem attacks weaken their position, we could even have a better dialog, but we have one nonetheless. Fighting by promulgating ideas sure beats the physical violence that seems to be overcoming more of us.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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John posted the overt division and implicit exclusion strikes me as a distinctly new and ominous development.
We literally fought a civil war in which Americans killed, raped and then burned each other's towns to the ground. In the 1960's governors turned police dogs, fire hoses and the national guard on American citizens protesting for equal right or against a war. I'd say that things have been worse than this. The ways that it's presenting itself are somewhat new, but I'm not sure the rhetoric actually is. We are also far more present to the oppression of others than we used to be.
Then we get to college campuses, where the enemy is anyone who would dare present a contrary view. With the proliferation of transparently and proudly biased information sources, we can now just hear those with whom we agree, rather than bother listening to contrary views. After all, those in power find free speech a nuisance at best.
This is largely anecdotal and when it does happen it's covered to death by the media. I'm always very skeptical of these kinds of "conventional wisdom" stories.
For all the griping I read on ST about our political and other OT threads, they serve at least one good purpose: we can post opposing views. While some will ignore views of those they know to oppose their viewpoints, sometime we actually have a dialog. If more people understood that ad hominem attacks weaken their position, we could even have a better dialog, but we have one nonetheless.
Big ups here. I try to point that out when I can. In the early days of ST we had our share of ad hominem, but I remember quite substantial and robust debates about the war in Iraq and the 2004 election. If we could even pull it back to those days, I'd be thrilled.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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Good points about division, HDDJ. I stand corrected. You could add that the formation of the United States was an exercise in hateful division. Huge numbers of loyalists were deomonized and essentially kicked out of their country, and their only offense was trying to remain loyal subjects of His Majesty.
I wish I could say the same about college campuses. My ties to academia doubtless skew my perspective. For 12 years, I was a trustee of a small, liberal arts oriented, Christian university. For 20, I was on the faculty of a law school. I also taught economics at the community college level for several years, and I am an alumnus of The Univesrity of California (i.e. Berkeley), where the Free Speech Movement was born, and of a very conservative economics department and a very liberal law school, both at UCLA. In addition, my daughters have relatively recent U.C. Davis degrees, as well as subsequent degrees from Fresno State and Illinois State.
The press's reporing on the indoctrination and intolerance of diverse viewpoints is aboslutely consistent with what I've observed. I think, though, it may merely reflect the ages-old desire of children to differ from their parents. My generation rebelled against the in loco parentis aspects of college. We wanted freedom to live as we chose. Just this week, in contrast, a group of SF State students protested the possibility of the campus entering into a contract to provide Coke, Pepsi or 7-up on campus. We would have objected if the University forced us to take only one. The SF State protest was over the presence of any of those drinks on campus because they were "bad for you."
As I joke with our daughters, when they have children, they'll get along great with their grandparents, because they'll share a common enemy.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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John posted Just this week, in contrast, a group of SF State students protested the possibility of the campus entering into a contract to provide Coke, Pepsi or 7-up on campus.
This has been criticized and protested since it started happening, what, 20 years ago? People were complaining about hyper-PC culture then too. Before that they were insisting that colleges divest from South Africa. Is not the history of our country discovering the perceived moral failings of those before us and trying to correct them?
If you watch the Daily Show from 10 years ago, it is rife with gay jokes that would be completely unacceptable now (and largely just not that funny). The culture has shifted. There have always been stories of things going way too far and there is more media now to magnify the best and the worst of them.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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Hildebeest hates free speech.
http://www.laughfactory.com/channels/new-releases/1977
In what appears to be a first for a serious presidential contender, Hillary Clinton’s campaign is going after five comedians who made fun of the former Secretary of State in standup skits at a popular Hollywood comedy club.
A video of the short performance, which is less than three minutes, is posted on the website of the renowned club, Laugh Factory, and the Clinton campaign has tried to censor it. Besides demanding that the video be taken down, the Clinton campaign has demanded the personal contact information of the performers that appear in the recording. This is no laughing matter for club owner Jamie Masada, a comedy guru who opened Laugh Factory more than three decades ago and has been instrumental in launching the careers of many famous comics. “They threatened me,” Masada told Judicial Watch. “I have received complains before but never a call like this, threatening to put me out of business if I don’t cut the video.”
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/11/clinton-goes-after-laugh-factory-comedians-for-making-fun-of-her/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
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More manufactured bullshit from the folks famous for manufacturing bullsh#t.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 06:36am PT
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This has been criticized and protested since it started happening, what, 20 years ago? People were complaining about hyper-PC culture then too. Before that they were insisting that colleges divest from South Africa. Is not the history of our country discovering the perceived moral failings of those before us and trying to correct them?
If you watch the Daily Show from 10 years ago, it is rife with gay jokes that would be completely unacceptable now (and largely just not that funny). The culture has shifted. There have always been stories of things going way too far and there is more media now to magnify the best and the worst of them.
I think John's point is we, as a society, have become much more intolerant of views we disagree with. Your previous examples of peace protests and equality marches involved boiling points of historically significant issues. Today, go off the deep end at the drop of a hat. Many college campuses seem to embrace an ultra-liberalism... and anyone who challenges those views is run off campus.
The recent Mizzou controversy is a classic example of liberal outrage. Triggered by a black student being called a racial slur, while off campus, there were a number of protests, includes blacks only (or no whites allowed) events. Fueled by two additional minor events, the controversy recieved national attention when the football team threaten to not play. In the end, the president of University of Missouri System and the university chancellor were forced to resign.
And then there's the recent Yale dustup, where a well-liked professor wrote an e-mail asserting that students should be able to dress up however they wish for Halloween, which resulted in protests and petitions to have the couple kicked off campus.
When did we become so thin-skinned?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 19, 2015 - 06:44am PT
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It's so easy for white guys to pretend to understand what's it's like to live in fear of the police every day. When's the last time you were pulled over for no reason, fearful that you'll be harassed, maybe beaten tazed or shot? My guess is your skin would be a bit thinner.
Divisiveness is the bread and butter of rightwing media. Don't give me the bs that it's the same on the left, both sides are bad, it equals out, blah blah. The effects of this can be seen in how the right has creates hysteria about admitting in Syrian war refugees into the U.S., despite the fact that the Paris attackers were European Nationals.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 06:50am PT
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It's so easy for white guys to pretend to understand what's it's like to live in fear of the police every day.
Is that what's going on at Mizzou? Are all the African American students living in fear of the police every day?
And yes, the mainstream media regularly stirs the pot. About a week after cop manhandled the young girl in Columbia, SC, Good Morning America did a segment on it. The story consisted of them repeatedly showing the key footage over and over and over. At least twelve times.
Par for the course.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 19, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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I think John's point is we, as a society, have become much more intolerant of views we disagree with
We've always been intolerant of other views, it's nothing new. It's the "first one through the breech" syndrome. The first guy through the wall, or into the trench always gets the bayonet, but eventually new ways win out.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 07:24am PT
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We've always been intolerant of other views, it's nothing new.
So the pablum spewed by Rush and Fox News really isn't that different from what we heard in the past???
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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Ed posted The recent Mizzou controversy is a classic example of liberal outrage. Triggered by a black student being called a racial slur, while off campus, there were a number of protests, includes blacks only (or no whites allowed) events. Fueled by two additional minor events, the controversy recieved national attention when the football team threaten to not play. In the end, the president of University of Missouri System and the university chancellor were forced to resign.
And then there's the recent Yale dustup, where a well-liked professor wrote an e-mail asserting that students should be able to dress up however they wish for Halloween, which resulted in protests and petitions to have the couple kicked off campus.
When did we become so thin-skinned?
So, you're a white dude I'm guessing?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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So, you're a white dude I'm guessing?
Boy howdy.
Does the mean I can't note the obvious?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 19, 2015 - 08:14am PT
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 19, 2015 - 08:30am PT
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So the pablum spewed by Rush and Fox News really isn't that different from what we heard in the past???
No, not really. Our history is full of intolerance. Just part of the human condition.
They even made a movie.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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Ed posted Boy howdy.
Does the mean I can't note the obvious?
No, Ed. It means that what you have a particular worldview where something is "obvious" and unfortunately you're not allowing for the fact that your experience is not universal.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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Speaking of smug condescencion...
This place has it in spades.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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Ed posted When did we become so thin-skinned?
Then
Speaking of smug condescencion...
This place has got it in spades.
Mighty black pot you've got there.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Just an observation, cupcake.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzly, WY
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Nov 19, 2015 - 10:07am PT
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My daughter is worried about the opoklips.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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So awesome.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Nov 19, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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Speaking of smug condescension...
This place has got it in spades.
Hey, we have to go with our strengths.
BTW, fixed that spelling for you.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 19, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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Gary wrote:
Fixed that spelling for you
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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I'm not sure defensive comments used to avoid substantive responses really count as "arguments."
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 19, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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I like Hillary's approach. Today:
“It’s time to begin a new phase to intensify and broaden our efforts, to smash the would-be caliphate and deny ISIS control of territory in Iraq and Syria,” Clinton said. “That starts with a more effective coalition air campaign, with more allied planes, more strikes and a broader target set.”
She said that air campaign was “necessary but not sufficient.” To be successful, she added, “airstrikes will have to be combined with ground forces actually taking back more territory from ISIS.” But she said she opposes another deployment of American troops in combat in the Middle East. “That is just not the smart move to make here,” she said. “Local people and nations have to secure their own communities. We can help them and we should, but we cannot substitute for them.”
She called for deploying a special operations force that Obama has authorized and said she is “prepared to deploy more as more Syrians get into the fight.”
Clinton also challenged Turkey to step up and become full partners in combating ISIL. “This is their fight, and they need to act like it,” she said. “So far, however, Turkey has been more focused on the Kurds than on countering ISIS.”
And she specified how she would run a no-fly zone in Syria, saying it would be “principally over northern Syria close to the border, cutting off the supply lines, trying to provide some safe refuges for refugees ... creating a safe space away from the barrel bombs. I would certainly expect to work with the Russians to be able to do that.
“This is a time for American leadership. No other country can rally the world to defeat ISIS. Only the United States can mobilize common action on a global scale,” she said. “The entire world must be part of this fight, but we must lead it.”
“Let’s be clear, though: Islam itself is not our adversary,” she said. “Muslims are peaceful and tolerant people and have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. The obsession in some quarters with a ‘clash of civilizations’ or repeating the specific words ‘radical Islamic terrorism’ is not just a distraction, it gives these criminals, these murderers, more standing than they deserve and it actually plays into their hands by alienating partners we need by our side.”
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 19, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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Anyone else having flashbacks to 2002? I had naively thought we had put this hyped up fear and paranoia behind us. Those feelings did not serve us well.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 19, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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Dirt, I see it as a call to get other nations in the region to step up. We do need to degrade their ability to organize freely. If there's a major attack in the U.S., god forbid, that's how we can get drawn into a ground war. I think Hillary learned from her mistaken Iraq vote.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 19, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
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I agree, but we know that the hawkish elements will clamor for overreach, and a scared public will likely comply.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
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The organ grinder will play his tune and the mental retard zombies will drool and dance their way to the polls and puke all over their dangling chads...Loons...!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 19, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
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John E, I went to a lecture tonight you would have enjoyed.
Lord Adair Turner, on economics and his new book.
Fascinating (for economics!)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2015 - 03:10am PT
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Fascinating (for economics!) I'm glad you added the parenthetical, Ken. Otherwise, I would have worried about you.
Was he speaking about his book generally, or did he have a specific topic? I always find him interesting. His recognition that no regulators anywhere saw the financial crisis of the last decade coming, yet his ability to articulate an intellectually honest argument that freer markets weren't the answer, either, demonstrated (to me, anyway) a pragmatism I see lacking far too often in our profession. Who knows? Now that he's leading a Soros-financed think tank, George may actually learn something. (This last sentence is a partially inside joke for Norton's amusement).
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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He was speaking primarily on his book. Unfortunately, it was not recorded like many talks I go to, so can't link.
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John M
climber
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Nov 20, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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His recognition that no regulators anywhere saw the financial crisis of the last decade coming,
that ones bothers me too, since I and a number of my friends forecast it, and none of us have a degree in economics. what a trip. Blinded by the trees.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2015 - 09:47am PT
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20,000,000 people came to the US last year on the visa waiver program which basically lets people fill out a form and come to the US. The 9/11 hijackers mostly came in on student visas. Why would a terrorist go through the trouble of waiting 18-36 months, undergoing a thorough background check, deal with numerous meetings with government officials where they have to repeat their story over and over again and then be followed up on by government officials if they are accepted for asylum when they can just apply for a visa and travel freely with no background check at all?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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This one coming up, though:
=
The Conservative Heart: How to Build a Fairer, Happier and More Prosperous America
Arthur C. Brooks, President, American Enterprise Institute
December 1, 2015
Santa Monica, Calif.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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Well, I'm a SOB! I was wrong, the talk WAS video'd, and is up:
http://livestream.com/milkeninstitute/events/4521129
Enjoy! not just for John, but for anyone who has a serious interest in what happened in the recession, and how to get out of it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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What about the release of Jonathon Pollard? Supposedly convicted of "spying for Israel".
I advocate that he is not a spy.
A spy is a patriot who infiltrates a foreign country to steal secrets.
A traitor is an unpatriotic person who sends secrets to a foreign country or agency with the goal of helping them, at the expense of their own country.
Clearly, he is a traitor, not a spy.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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that ones bothers me too, since I and a number of my friends forecast it, and none of us have a degree in economics. what a trip. Blinded by the trees.
That is quite true. I got back into economic forecasting on a professional basis because I bucked the consensus forecasts in 2006 and insisted that a major correction was likely, as part of a forecast of activity in west coast ports done for a friend (and now an economics partner). The consensus then was a slight decrease in GDP growth (i.e. slowing down to, say 2% growth. I though a 5% decline was much more likely. Even that proved, ultimately, optimistic.)
I'd like to say that my economics training caused me to make that strong a forecast, but conventional economic analysis had little to do with it. Rather, my (then) 27-year legal experience in debtor-creditor relations made the coming crash's likelihood abundantly clear to me, and to just about every other insolvency counsel.
And Ken, thanks for the links and the heads up. I always enjoy reading the comments of Brooks, too, perhaps because one of my main climbing partners and friends at Berkeley was Art Brook (no "s"), who is a true gem of a person.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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From another forum I frequent:
This post is going to be long, but contains actual information about the refugee process.
Background: I'm an attorney that has done a few dozen asylum, refugee, and U-Visa cases on a pro bono basis..
The refugee screening process is multi-layered and is very difficult to get through. Most people languish in temporary camps for months to years while their story is evaluated and checked, often through other official governmental agencies.
First, a refugee doe not get to choose what country they will be resettled to. If they already have family (legal) in a country, that makes it more likely that they will go to that country to be with that support structure. Other than that, it is random. So, you can not simply walk into a refugee camp, show a document, and say, I want to go to America. Instead, the UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees) works with the local authorities to try to take care of basic needs. Once the person/family is registered to receive basic necessities, they can be processed for resettlement. Many refugees are not actually interested in permanent resettlement as they hope to return to their country and are hoping that the turmoil they fled will be resolved soon. In fact, most refugees in refugee events never resettle to a third country. Those that do want to resettle have to go through an extensive process to continually retain their temporary housing.
Resettlement in the U.S. is a long process and takes many steps. The Refugee Admissions Program is jointly administered by the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) in the Department of State, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and offices within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) within DHS conducts refugee interviews and determines individual eligibility for refugee status in the United States. Each of these offices has to separately sign off on any refugee before they are admitted.
The United States evaluates refugees on a tiered system with three levels of priority.
First Priority are people who have suffered compelling persecution or for whom no other durable solution exists. These individuals are referred to the United States by UNHCR, or they are identified by the U.S. embassy or a non-governmental organization (NGO).
Second priority are groups of “special concern” to the United States. The Department of State determines these groups, with input from USCIS, UNHCR, and designated NGOs. At present, we prioritize certain persons from the former Soviet Union, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Iran, Burma, and Bhutan.
Third priority are relatives of refugees (parents, spouses, and unmarried children under 21) who are already settled in the United States may be admitted as refugees. The U.S.-based relative must file an Affidavit of Relationship (AOR) and must be processed by DHS.
Before being allowed to come to the United States, each refugee must undergo an extensive interviewing, screening, and security clearance process conducted by Regional Refugee Coordinators and overseas Resettlement Support Centers (RSCs). Individuals generally must not already be firmly resettled (a legal term of art that would be a separate article). Just because one falls into the three priorities above does not guarantee admission to the United States.
The Immigration laws require that the individuals prove that they have a “well-founded fear,” (another legal term which would be a book.) This fear must be proved regardless of the person’s country, circumstance, or classification in a priority category. There are multiple interviews and people are challenged on discrepancies. I had a client who was not telling the truth on her age (she wanted to be younger) and the agency challenged her on it and ultimately denied her admission even though there was no legal significance to the lie. Refugees are not simply admitted because they have a well founded fear. They still must show that they are not subject to exclusion under Section 212(a) of the INA. These grounds include serious health matters, moral or criminal matters, as well as security issues. In addition, they can be excluded for such things as polygamy, misrepresentation of facts on visa applications, smuggling, or previous deportations. Under some circumstances, the person may be eligible to have the ground waived but that adds time to the process. I have seen reports that potential refugees aren't fingerprinted or otherwise verified. This is comically misinformed. Some applicants are subjected to DNA swab screenings and blood tests (particularly if they are from Western Africa and run the risk of carrying communicable disease). I've never had an applicant make it through without some kind of fingerprint or biometric verification.
After all of this, a refugee can be conditionally accepted for resettlement. Then, the RSC sends a request for assurance of placement to the United States, and the Refugee Processing Center (RPC) works with private voluntary agencies (VOLAG) to determine where the refugee will live. If the refugee does have family in the U.S., efforts will be made to resettle close to that family.
Every person accepted as a refugee for planned admission to the United States is conditional upon passing a medical examination and passing all security checks. Frankly, there is more screening of refugees than ever happens to get on an airplane. Of course, yes, no system can be 100% foolproof. But if that is your standard, then you better shut down the entire airline industry, close the borders, and stop all international commerce and shipping. Every one of those has been the source of entry of people and are much easier ways to gain access to the U.S. Only upon passing all of these checks (which involve basically every agency of the government involved in terrorist identification) can the person actually be approved to travel.
Before departing, refugees sign a promissory note to repay the United States for their travel costs. This travel loan is an interest-free loan that refugees begin to pay back six months after arriving in the country.
Once the VOLAG is notified of the travel plans, it must arrange for the reception of refugees at the airport and transportation to their housing at their final destination.
This process from start to finish averages 18 to 24 months, but I have seen it take years.
The reality is that about half of the refugees are children, another quarter are elderly. Almost all of the adults are either moms or couples coming with children. Each year the President, in consultation with Congress, determines the numerical ceiling for refugee admissions. For Fiscal Year (FY) 2016, the proposed ceiling is 85,000. We have been averaging about 70,000 a year for the last number of years. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)
Over one-third of all refugee arrivals (35.1 percent, or 24,579) in FY 2015 came from the Near East/South Asia—a region that includes Iraq, Iran, Bhutan, and Afghanistan.
Another third of all refugee arrivals (32.1 percent, or 22,472) in FY 2015 came from Africa.
Over a quarter of all refugee arrivals (26.4 percent, or 18,469) in FY 2015 came from East Asia — a region that includes China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)
Finally, the process in Europe is different. I would be much more concerned that terrorists are infiltrating the European system because they are not nearly so extensive and thorough in their process.
TL;DR: Everyone firing off "refugees are scary" flares don't know their hand from their ass.
EDIT: It has come to my attention that an attorney named "Scott Hicks" has publicly shared this same block of text originally found in a CLE packet produced by Bay Area Legal Aid. Original credit should go to the producers of this packet for most verbiage and all information contained therein.
Source appears to be this guy.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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Scott Hicks's post is consistent with the experiences of middle eastern refugees of which I am aware, HDDJ.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 21, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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Edwards wins governorship
"Karen Carter Petersen, chairman of the state Democratic Party, called Edwards an “amazing candidate” who connected with voters through his personal integrity. “He’s lived his values,” Petersen said, adding that the party’s decision to coalesce around Edwards as a candidate in March helped clear the way for his strong run. “We’ve worked to rebuild and rebrand the party from the bottom up,” she said, “and focus on those policies where we can all agree.”
In many ways, Edwards is a throwback to a previous generation of Southern Democrats, many of whom served in the military and touted traditional values. Through the efforts of the Democratic Leadership Council, many of them — including Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Chuck Robb and Sam Nunn — went on to national success."
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