Discussion Topic |
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This thread has been locked |
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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It actually felt good to hit delete.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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This is the smell of victory...
I love watching the Chief go.
He made it so that all BOb could do is to pull a personal meltdown and delete the thread....
Go Chief! Go!!!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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No loss.
Except maybe as an example of the way in which a subject that really needs discussion simply cannot be discussed on Supertopo, because a few children in adult bodies do nothing more than scream at each other, drowning out the voices of everyone else.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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WEAK SAUCE!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And the fact that, for all the posturing about "protecting the kids," nobody has the will to do what it takes to actually ENSURE it.
My high school in Riverside and the middle and high school in San Bernardino where my mom taught both had metal detectors at all entry points and quite an "army" of visibly-armed campus police roaming the buildings. There was the odd shanking, but no shootings. And these were both gang INFESTED schools.
You really want a "gun free zone," you have to ENSURE it rather than play mealy-mouthed lip-service games while bagging on guns broadcast.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Next time, you'll know.
Not like you needed to be Nostradamus to see it coming this time, though.
This thread will probably end up like that one, too, because those who fail to learn from the past ...
Someone needs to check in on Philo. You know how easy it is to get a gun these days.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Someone needs to check in on Philo. You know how easy it is to get a gun these days.
also Locker get that glue gun from him too..
way too much love in liberland
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Yay. Prolly shoulda died about 400 posts sooner.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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So who had the meltdown and who left? Or none of the above?
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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And the fact that, for all the posturing about "protecting the kids," nobody has the will to do what it takes to actually ENSURE it.
I do.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Hey Gary Schenk & Wilbeer....
Here's what YOUR candidate Bernie Sanders has supported in his home state for over two decades.... shssssssssssssssssssssssssssh! I don't think Bernie really and truly has the same ideas on GUN CONTROL as you do.
Vermont has very few gun control laws, and has among the most permissive laws in the nation regarding the purchase and open or concealed carry of firearms. The state's rural character, along with its strong hunting and outdoor sports traditions, have contributed to the state's permissive gun policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont
Waaaaaaaaay tooo funneee!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The state of Vermont neither issues nor requires a permit to carry a weapon on one's person, openly or concealed. This permissive stance on gun control known in the US as Constitutional carry, since one's "permit" is said to be the constitution. For many decades, Vermont was the only state where this was the case (hence the alternative term Vermont carry).[2] Vermont law does not distinguish between residents and non-residents of the state; both have the same right to carry permit-free while in Vermont.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont
not many mass shooting events there either.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Precisely. Gee, I wonder why there haven't been any Mass Shootings there with everybody packing openly and all. What a tragedy! Frkn GUN NUTS in Vermont I tell ya.
PS: Wouldn't be a bit surprised if Bernie aint "secretly" packing a Glock 19 CCWingly himself.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Like moths to flame...
No BOBda...
More like flies to a bigass turd. And.... Guess who's the TURD that keeps on starting them threads up!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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You know nothing of how I regard guns and their use.
You have a hard time with humor.
And have little to say about Vermonts gun laws ,which I believe are good ,for ,Vermont.
Burlington ,while a great city would be like 15th in size in New York.
We cannot compare ,Vermont is a rural place compared to almost anywhere in NY ,minus the dacks or the finger lakes.
Apples to Oranges.
That said ,It really bothers me,that Bernie is against Gun violence as you allude to.
Reality check Navel man.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Sorry Moose
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Oct 4, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
And have little to say about Vermonts gun laws ,which I believe are good ,for ,Vermont.
Burlington ,while a great city would be like 15th in size in New York.
We cannot compare ,Vermont is a rural place compared to almost anywhere in NY ,minus the dacks or the finger lakes.
Apples to Oranges.
Really Wilbeer,
Roseberg OR has 1/2 the population of, Burlington VT. AND, has the exact same "rural place" environment setting as Roseburg OR and Sandy Hook CT.
Dah!
AND,
Had this VET had an "Open Carry" OR CCW'd weapon, I guarantee ya this dude would have unloaded all nine rounds ON TARGET into that piece of shets face and forehead. Thus ending the situation.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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It's Gone
It's back
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Open Carry On......
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philo
climber
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Laurel Harper is a nurse who was very open about her love for guns. Former patient Shelley Steele said that Harper told her that “she had multiple guns and believed wholeheartedly in the Second Amendment and wanted to get all the guns she could before someone outlawed them.” Steele also revealed that Harper was very aware of her son’s mental problems, but often took him shooting anyway. “She told my husband she just purchased some new guns a few weeks ago and took him shooting. I thought the whole situation was very strange. If you know your son has mental health issues, do you encourage a fascination with guns?”
The Oregon shooter had four weapons on him, all legally purchased, when he walked into Umpqua Community College and brutally massacred nine people before killing himself. There were ten more weapons recovered from his apartment. The reaction from the right has been the same as it always has been- distracting false narratives about “gun free zones” (which the college was not), blaming mental illness, and obstinately resisting all attempts to engage in a rational discussion about the epidemic of shootings that kill thousands of our citizens every year. The rise of gun sales after these tragedies just goes to show how dysfunctional our nation is and how giant a battle we have yet to fight if we have any hope of saving our citizens from themselves.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
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apogee wrote: It's Gone
It's back
Like the plague.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The Oregon shooter had four weapons on him, all legally purchased, when he walked into Umpqua Community College and brutally massacred nine people before killing himself. There were ten more weapons recovered from his apartment. The reaction from the right has been the same as it always has been- distracting false narratives about “gun free zones” (which the college was not), blaming mental illness, and obstinately resisting all attempts to engage in a rational discussion about the epidemic of shootings that kill thousands of our citizens every year. The rise of gun sales after these tragedies just goes to show how dysfunctional our nation is and how giant a battle we have yet to fight if we have any hope of saving our citizens from themselves.
Oh my.............. Fkn VT GUN NUTS!
Vermont has very few gun control laws, and has among the most permissive laws in the nation regarding the purchase and open or concealed carry of firearms. The state's rural character, along with its strong hunting and outdoor sports traditions, have contributed to the state's permissive gun policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont
And that's Bernie Sanders Home State.... Philco.
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philo
climber
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Wing nut its regarding events in Oregon not Vermont.
And your the pissant who keeps whining about all the crime committed with illegal guns.
Well these mass shootings seem to be perpetrated by legal weapons.
Hmmmmm
But your are real into killin n murderin so as long as somebody dies you're happy as a clam.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
apogee wrote: It's Gone
It's back... Like the plague.
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philo
climber
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Hey look it's AmeriKKKunt the stalkerf*#k thinking he's accomplishing something.
What a frightened limp dick.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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philo
climber
Oct 4, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
Hey look it's AmeriKKKunt the stalkerf*#k thinking he's accomplishing something.
What a frightened limp dick.
You shouldn't be talking about LOcker that way, Phlico... Will post his over 2500 "stalkerf*#k" Photos later.
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philo
climber
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It's not about blaming the gun it's about holding the gun culture accountable.
Why are you so desperate to promote and defend the indefensible?
My guess is that in a sane system you wouldn't be able to keep your pathetic bullet dispensing dildos because you'd be deemed mentally and emotionally incompetent.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Why are you so desperate to promote and defend the ...
Precisely the exact same reason YOU, Phlico are willing to defend Roe vs. Wade.
Yet, the 2nd Amend is one of our founding Fundamental Freedoms. That's Why!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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After hitting the reject button you should have left well enough alone Bob Da. With all this fuming back and forth and sitting on your ass typing away you're likely to have a heart attack thence permanent self deletion. Take care amigo.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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You guys are like a bunch of addicts
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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if we have any hope of saving our citizens from themselves
See, this is HOW far the liberal mindset has fallen from our founding principles.
Our founders, and MOST Americans, do not believe that the citizens need to be saved FROM THEMSELVES. We don't need "saving." The VAST majority of us are quite able and HAPPY to fend for ourselves, work for ourselves, succeed for ourselves, and generally just be left the HELL alone!
Liberals INSIST on dumbing society down to the lowest common denominator, and they actually use TSA useless stupidity as COMPARISONS of how things "should" be: "One shoe bomber, so now we all have to take off our shoes at TSA check-ins...," as though that's GOOD and RIGHT, when in FACT it's useless and stupid.
You want to ENSURE that kids are safe?
Then PROTECT them, and that means ARMING people nearby them.
We KNOW that principle works when it comes to protecting our elected goofballs, celebrities (including that hypocritical piece of snake droppings, Jim Carrey, who surrounds himSELF with armed bodyguards), etc. It WORKS when it is consistently employed, so let's employ that same principle with our kids and then quit complaining about a non-existent "gun culture" that has NOTHING to do with the real problem.
But, noooo... the libs would much rather wring their hands, complain about the right "not doing anything," and keep relentlessly trying to dumb us all down, destroy our most basic freedoms, and firmly affix ALL of us to the bottomless government teat!
PROTECT the kids in the ONE way you actually CAN right now. Don't wait for pipe dreams and legislation that will never come and will have no effect. If you won't do that, then shut up, because you actually DON'T care to protect them if you WON'T.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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I have no idea what thread this thread is in reference to.
Because I typically avoid non-climbing related threads, I'm guessing it was one of those.
And that seems OK (not knowing).
It's not that I don't care about politics and current events. Far from it. But beating my head against a wall doesn't seem all that sensible of a way to spend my few remaining years.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Locker,
Plano is the same population as San Bernardino.
3 murders in Plano in 2013. ( up from 1 the year before )
42 in San Bernardino. ( down from 47 the year before )
Besides smarter gun laws, what's Plano doing that San Bernardino isn't?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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No point.
Someone will just start a Son Of Umpqua thread to replace it.
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philo
climber
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And yet some would rather not discuss it because it often leads to yelling.
Well change can be noisy.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Philo good job for believe in change!
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philo
climber
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Hey I well remember the "clean climbing" revolution. Repeated ironmongery was destroying cracks faster than new routes could be created.
It was contentious to the old set in their ways guard.
But when enough voices for change could be heard above the din of dissent we as a group moved forward.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Plano TX = Open Carry.
Dah!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Yup, Burch.
Get the 19" model.
And put a RED DOT SCOPE on it and you'll be in like, Flint!
1625FPS 1.25oz slug at 200yds, 3-6" pattern, no problem.
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philo
climber
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Add some gunz and remove some hair and you've got the chief, the Trump of the Taco.
Scary
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monolith
climber
state of being
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TGT, looks like Illinois beats Texas easily in gun death rate.
That Texas gun culture isn't so safe after all.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Gun control = BRASS
Breathe
Relax
Aim
Slack
Squeeze
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Monolith, what's the R^2 on that data? It obviously is significantly correlated just based on the interocular trauma test, but numbers are nice. Also, what was the method for determining where on the X axis each state fell as it's obviously more granular than the categories shown.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ah! Das Chief: per your earlier post
No BOBda...
More like flies to a bigass turd. And.... Guess who's the TURD that keeps on starting them threads up!
So Chief-------you do acknowledge, you love to wallow in excrement?
I always thought you were fond of wallowing in excrement, but it is great to see you state it.
By the way, if you want to keep thinking you are fooling us that you are fairly intelligent, you do need to start using some internet tools for your sentence structure and spelling.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You just posted on this Bigass Turd of a thread Fritz.... thus you too are attracted to and love to "wallow in"... "Excretment"
Toooo fking funeeee!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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There are plenty of internet tools here on the Topo..rj
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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You can call it how ever which way you want, LOcker.
I am just accustomed to calling it that way due to my participation in the ASSA annual competition.
"Google it"
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Our founders, and MOST Americans, do not believe that the citizens need to be saved FROM THEMSELVES.
Delusional revisionism at its best! Even if it were true, doesn't make it right.
"Our Founders" weren't who you claim. The everyday government of the people in 1776 was through thirteen independent states which actively did protect people from themselves, some even mandated church attendance to protect their souls. The Federal Government had absolutely no constitutional role in the internal actions of its citizens, so to claim that the "founders" didn't believe that non-federal government has a role in protecting people from danger is absurd.
Try live a single hour without benefiting from ways the Government (i.e. we the rest of the people) didn't leave you the HELL alone.
Labor laws, the EPA, consumer safety, FDIC insurance, public roads, public parks, national parks, building codes, vaccinations...
... in a word, Tyranny
TE
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Chief! You have a point.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You just posted on this Bigass Turd of a thread Fritz.... thus you too are attracted to and love to "wallow in"... "Excretment"
Toooo fking funeeee!
But on the deleted thread, I posted about 8 times, & you posted a lot-----maybe 100 times or more.
Tonight, this is my second post. Obviously you are far more interested in wallowing in schit than I am.
I know you do enjoy your schit-wallowing. Have some schitty fun.
Doooooode.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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But on the deleted thread, I posted about 8 times, & you posted a lot-----maybe 100 times or more.
And BOBsda posted "maybe 100-200 times more" than I.
Thus, he is the Bigass ShetTurd Thread initiator AND poster. Right, Fritz?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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And BOBsda posted "maybe 100-200 times more" than I.
Thus, he is the Bigass ShetTurd Thread initiator AND poster. Right, Fritz?
bullsh#t Chief.
You made 155 posts to Bob's 90.
Keep on spewing, Chief.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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Monolith wrote: bullsh#t Chief.
You made 155 posts to Bob's 90.
Keep on spewing, Chief.
Facts are a hard pill for the chief to swallow.
Great post TE from Philly.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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monolith
climber
state of being
Oct 4, 2015 - 07:58pm PT bullsh#t Chief.
You made 155 posts to Bob's 90.
Bullshet...
Bullshet...
Bullshet....
Bullshet....
And MORE Bullshet.
MONO = Super Taco Buttsnorkler
BOBda = King of ALL the Taco Buttsnorklers
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Craig Fry = The King Taco Politard Crankloon Jackazz
ALL you "Politard" Libtard loons crack me the fk up.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Das Chief: Re your reply (thank you for you kindness) to my post asserting that you love to wallow in schit.
Thus, he is the Bigass ShetTurd Thread initiator AND poster. Right, Fritz?
Das Chief! You are the all-time biggest schit-spewer on ST.
Worse yet! We all know you enjoy it, and are obsessed with spewing schit.
I guess everyone should have a hobby, but yours is the shittiest one I have seen.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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He get's lost when he forgets the snorkel...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Fritz = Never mind.. your too old.
7 out of 10 really isn't bad if you take into consideration that the bathroom has two doors...
AH! There's only ONE door LOcker. The one you keep trying to open and "go through" is actually the fking cover to the toilet. Thus the "snorkle" that is permanently affixed to your mouth.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 4, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
I don't need to GOOGLE it...
and fuk any stupid organization that can't figure that out...
Now what was all that "bullshet" of yours LOcker about having an "open mind"?
I get it. Only when it is fashionable to state such non-sense to appease and suck the azzes of your ... Brah's.
Gotcha.
ZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! LOcker.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 4, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
and where's that link to the organization saying that slugs from a shotgun make a "Pattern"???...
Burchey...
you seem to think it's easy enough to find...
How about some fuking HELP over here???...
If it exists...
I really would like to see it...
Hey LOCKER>....
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 2, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Google it.....
But then again LOcker.. you already stated this ....
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 4, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
and fuk any stupid organization that can't figure that out...
soooo, KMA!
While you're at it LOcker... check out this "Pattern":
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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What's great about this thread is that it's completely content-free and goes straight into the B.S. that weighed down the original. Perfect example of a circle jerk. Who's gonna c#m first?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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I just unfriended you on FB, Bob.
Your political spin-outs have no context to the person I once admired as a climber.
Your engagement in topics that take away from this forum, then deletion, and then again this self-promotion: "OMG: IT'S GONE" just go to further show you are part of the spin-out low-T oldsters that has no appeal to me anymore, no matter how good you "used to be".
Or maybe "still are".
You are just another goddamn fool to me now.
Later,
Erik Wolfe
Edit: You just joined Cragman, so obviously it's not political.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Nice try, Jim.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Appears you have no proof...
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 2, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Google it.....
"Like Moths to a"... ooooops. Wrong metaphor.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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make the world better
Yeah, that happens on the internet all the time...
Good point...
I'm out.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Hey LOcker, take the smoking glue gun outta that nostril and...
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 2, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Google it.....
While you're at it, quit trying to go through that second door in your Bathroom, LOcker. Might help with all that "seems" and recent negative resentful "pattern" of behavior you have been displaying & allowing to impede your thought processes with as well.
LOcker = er.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I didn't know Zack Galifinakis was a speed shooter. Nice share!
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nice try, Bob.
At a community college in Roseburg, Ore., last week, nine people were killed: Lucero Alcaraz, 19; Treven Taylor Anspach, 20; Rebecka Ann Carnes, 18; Quinn Glen Cooper, 18; Kim Saltmarsh Dietz, 59; Lucas Eibel, 18; Jason Dale Johnson, 33; Lawrence Levine, 67; Sarena Dawn Moore, 44.
April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. : Cassie Bernall, 17; Steven Curnow, 14; Corey DePooter, 17; Kelly Fleming, 16; Matthew Kechter, 16; Daniel Mauser, 15; Daniel Rohrbough, 15; William “Dave” Sanders, 47; Rachel Scott, 17; Isaiah Shoels, 18; John Tomlin, 16; Lauren Townsend, 18; Kyle Velasquez, 16.
Dec. 26, 2000, at Edgewater Technology in Wakefield, Mass. : Jennifer Bragg Capobianco, 29; Janice Hagerty, 46; Louis “Sandy” Javelle, 58; Rose Manfredi, 48; Paul Marceau, 36; Cheryl Troy, 50; Craig Wood, 29.
March 21, 2005, at Red Lake High School on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Red Lake, Minn. : Derrick Brun, 28; Dewayne Lewis, 15; Chase Lussier, 15; Daryl Lussier, 58; Neva Rogers, 62; Chanelle Rosebear, 15; Michelle Sigana, 32; Thurlene Stillday, 15; Alicia White, 15.
Oct. 2, 2006, at an Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa. : Naomi Ebersol, 7; Marian Stoltzfus Fisher, 13; Lena Zook Miller, 7 ; Mary Liz Miller, 8 ; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12.
April 16, 2007, at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. : Ross Abdallah Alameddine, 20; Christopher James “Jamie” Bishop, 35; Brian Bluhm, 25; Ryan Clark, 22; Austin Cloyd, 18; Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, 49; Daniel Perez Cueva, 21; Kevin Granata, 46; Matthew G. Gwaltney, 24; Caitlin Hammaren, 19; Jeremy Herbstritt, 27; Rachael Elizabeth Hill, 18; Emily Hilscher, 19; Jarrett Lane, 22; Matthew J. La Porte, 20; Henry Lee, 20; Liviu Librescu, 76; G.V. Loganathan, 51; Partahi Lumbantoruan, 34; Lauren McCain, 20; Daniel O’Neil, 22; Juan Ramon Ortiz, 26; Minal Panchal, 26; Erin Peterson, 18; Michael Pohle, 23; Julia Pryde, 23; Mary Read, 19; Reema Samaha, 18; Waleed Shaalan, 32; Leslie Sherman, 20; Maxine Turner, 22; Nicole R. White, 20.
Dec. 5, 2007, at the Westroads Mall in Omaha : Beverly Flynn, 47; Janet Jorgensen, 66; Gary Joy, 56; John McDonald, 65; Gary Scharf, 48; Angie Schuster, 36; Dianne Trent, 53; Maggie Webb, 24.
April 3, 2009, American Civic Association immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y. : Parveen Nln Ali, 26; Almir O. Alves, 43; Marc Henry Bernard, 44; Maria Sonia Bernard, 46; Hai Hong Zhong, 54; Hong Xiu Mao, 35; Jiang Ling, 22; Layla Khalil, 57; Roberta King, 72; Lan Ho, 39; Li Guo, 47;Dolores Yigal, 53; Maria Zobniw, 60.
Nov. 5, 2009, at Fort Hood, near Killeen, Tex. : Michael Grant Cahill, 62; Libardo Eduardo Caraveo, 52; Justin Michael DeCrow, 32; John P. Gaffaney, 56; Frederick Greene, 29; Jason Dean Hunt, 22; Amy S. Krueger, 29; Aaron Thomas Nemelka, 19; Michael S. Pearson, 22; Russell Seager, 51; Francheska Velez, 21; Juanita L. Warman, 55; Kham See Xiong, 23.
Jan. 8, 2011, in the parking lot of a grocery store in Tucson : Christina Taylor Green, 9; Dorothy Morris, 76; John M. Roll, 63; Phyllis Schneck, 79; Dorwan Stoddard, 76; Gabriel Zimmerman, 30.
Feb. 27, 2012, at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio : Demetrius Hewlin, 16; Russell King, Jr., 17; Daniel Parmertor, 16.
April 2, 2012, at Oikos University in Oakland, Calif. : Tshering Rinzing Bhutia, 38; Doris Chibuko, 40; Sonam Choedon, 33; Grace Eunhea Kim, 23; Katleen Ping, 24; Judith O. Seymour, 53; Lydia Sim, 21.
July 20, 2012, at the Century Aurora 16 movie complex in Aurora, Colo. : Jonathan Blunk, 26: A.J. Boik, 18; Jesse Childress, 29; Gordon W. Cowden, 51; Jessica Ghawi, 24; John Thomas Larimer, 27; Matthew McQuinn, 27; Micayla Medek, 23; Veronica Moser-Sullivan, 6; Alex Matthew Sullivan, 27; Alexander Teves, 24; Rebecca Ann Wingo, 3.
Aug. 5, 2012, at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, Wis. : Satwant Singh Kaleka, 65; Suveg Singh Khattra, 84; Paramjit Kaur, 41; Prakash Singh, 39; Ranjit Singh, 49; Sita Singh, 41.
Dec. 14, 2012, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. : Charlotte Bacon, 6; Daniel Barden, 7; Rachel D’Avino, 29; Olivia Engel, 6; Josephine Gay, 7; Dylan Hockley, 6; Dawn Hocksprung, 47; Madeleine F. Hsu, 6; Catherine V. Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; Jesse Lewis, 6; Ana M. Marquez-Greene, 6; James Mattioli, 6; Grace McDonnell, 7; Anne Marie Murphy, 52; Emilie Parker, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Noah Pozner, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Jessica Rekos, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Lauren Russeau, 30; Mary Sherlach, 56; Victoria Soto, 27; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison N. Wyatt, 6.
Sept. 16, 2013, at the Washington Navy Yard in the District : Michael Arnold, 59; Martin Bodrog, 54; Arthur Daniels, 51; Sylvia Frasier, 53; Kathy Gaarde, 62; John Roger Johnson, 73; Mary Frances DeLorenzo Knight, 51; Frank Kohler, 51; Vishnu Bhalchandra Pandit, 61; Kenneth Bernard Proctor, 46; Gerald Read, 58; Richard Michael Ridgell, 52.
April 2, 2014, at Fort Hood near Killeen, Tex. : Daniel M. Ferguson, 39; Carlos A. Lazaney-Rodriguez, 38; Timothy Wayne Owens, 37.
April 13, 2014, at the Jewish Community Center of Greater Kansas City and the Village Shalom Retirement Center, both in Overland Park, Kan. : William Lewis Corporon, 69; Terri LaManno, 53; Reat Griffin Underwood, 14.
June 17, 2015, at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C. : Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45; DePayne V. Middleton Doctor, 49; Cynthia Graham Hurd, 54; Susie Jackson, 87; Ethel Lee Lance, 70; Clementa C. Pinckney, 41; Tywanza Sanders, 26; Daniel Simmons, 74; Myra Thompson, 59.
July 16, 2015, at an armed services recruiting center and a Navy reserve center in Chattanooga, Tenn. : Carson A. Holmquist, 25; Randall Smith, 26; Thomas J. Sullivan, 40; Squire K. “Skip” Wells, 21; David A. Wyatt, 35 .
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Gee, I wonder why there haven't been any Mass Shootings there with everybody packing openly and all.
Perhaps because Vermont is one of the most liberal of states, both currently and historically?
Or perhaps because it's largest ethnic group is French or French-Canadian?
Or perhaps because it is the LEAST religious State in the US?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Damn! Look AT that.
Nice try, Bob.
At a community college in Roseburg, Ore., last week, nine people were killed: Lucero Alcaraz, 19; Treven Taylor Anspach, 20; Rebecka Ann Carnes, 18; Quinn Glen Cooper, 18; Kim Saltmarsh Dietz, 59; Lucas Eibel, 18; Jason Dale Johnson, 33; Lawrence Levine, 67; Sarena Dawn Moore, 44.
April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. : Cassie Bernall, 17; Steven Curnow, 14; Corey DePooter, 17; Kelly Fleming, 16; Matthew Kechter, 16; Daniel Mauser, 15; Daniel Rohrbough, 15; William “Dave” Sanders, 47; Rachel Scott, 17; Isaiah Shoels, 18; John Tomlin, 16; Lauren Townsend, 18; Kyle Velasquez, 16.
Dec. 26, 2000, at Edgewater Technology in Wakefield, Mass. : Jennifer Bragg Capobianco, 29; Janice Hagerty, 46; Louis “Sandy” Javelle, 58; Rose Manfredi, 48; Paul Marceau, 36; Cheryl Troy, 50; Craig Wood, 29.
March 21, 2005, at Red Lake High School on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Red Lake, Minn. : Derrick Brun, 28; Dewayne Lewis, 15; Chase Lussier, 15; Daryl Lussier, 58; Neva Rogers, 62; Chanelle Rosebear, 15; Michelle Sigana, 32; Thurlene Stillday, 15; Alicia White, 15.
Oct. 2, 2006, at an Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa. : Naomi Ebersol, 7; Marian Stoltzfus Fisher, 13; Lena Zook Miller, 7 ; Mary Liz Miller, 8 ; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12.
April 16, 2007, at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. : Ross Abdallah Alameddine, 20; Christopher James “Jamie” Bishop, 35; Brian Bluhm, 25; Ryan Clark, 22; Austin Cloyd, 18; Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, 49; Daniel Perez Cueva, 21; Kevin Granata, 46; Matthew G. Gwaltney, 24; Caitlin Hammaren, 19; Jeremy Herbstritt, 27; Rachael Elizabeth Hill, 18; Emily Hilscher, 19; Jarrett Lane, 22; Matthew J. La Porte, 20; Henry Lee, 20; Liviu Librescu, 76; G.V. Loganathan, 51; Partahi Lumbantoruan, 34; Lauren McCain, 20; Daniel O’Neil, 22; Juan Ramon Ortiz, 26; Minal Panchal, 26; Erin Peterson, 18; Michael Pohle, 23; Julia Pryde, 23; Mary Read, 19; Reema Samaha, 18; Waleed Shaalan, 32; Leslie Sherman, 20; Maxine Turner, 22; Nicole R. White, 20.
Dec. 5, 2007, at the Westroads Mall in Omaha : Beverly Flynn, 47; Janet Jorgensen, 66; Gary Joy, 56; John McDonald, 65; Gary Scharf, 48; Angie Schuster, 36; Dianne Trent, 53; Maggie Webb, 24.
April 3, 2009, American Civic Association immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y. : Parveen Nln Ali, 26; Almir O. Alves, 43; Marc Henry Bernard, 44; Maria Sonia Bernard, 46; Hai Hong Zhong, 54; Hong Xiu Mao, 35; Jiang Ling, 22; Layla Khalil, 57; Roberta King, 72; Lan Ho, 39; Li Guo, 47;Dolores Yigal, 53; Maria Zobniw, 60.
Nov. 5, 2009, at Fort Hood, near Killeen, Tex. : Michael Grant Cahill, 62; Libardo Eduardo Caraveo, 52; Justin Michael DeCrow, 32; John P. Gaffaney, 56; Frederick Greene, 29; Jason Dean Hunt, 22; Amy S. Krueger, 29; Aaron Thomas Nemelka, 19; Michael S. Pearson, 22; Russell Seager, 51; Francheska Velez, 21; Juanita L. Warman, 55; Kham See Xiong, 23.
Jan. 8, 2011, in the parking lot of a grocery store in Tucson : Christina Taylor Green, 9; Dorothy Morris, 76; John M. Roll, 63; Phyllis Schneck, 79; Dorwan Stoddard, 76; Gabriel Zimmerman, 30.
Feb. 27, 2012, at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio : Demetrius Hewlin, 16; Russell King, Jr., 17; Daniel Parmertor, 16.
April 2, 2012, at Oikos University in Oakland, Calif. : Tshering Rinzing Bhutia, 38; Doris Chibuko, 40; Sonam Choedon, 33; Grace Eunhea Kim, 23; Katleen Ping, 24; Judith O. Seymour, 53; Lydia Sim, 21.
July 20, 2012, at the Century Aurora 16 movie complex in Aurora, Colo. : Jonathan Blunk, 26: A.J. Boik, 18; Jesse Childress, 29; Gordon W. Cowden, 51; Jessica Ghawi, 24; John Thomas Larimer, 27; Matthew McQuinn, 27; Micayla Medek, 23; Veronica Moser-Sullivan, 6; Alex Matthew Sullivan, 27; Alexander Teves, 24; Rebecca Ann Wingo, 3.
Aug. 5, 2012, at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, Wis. : Satwant Singh Kaleka, 65; Suveg Singh Khattra, 84; Paramjit Kaur, 41; Prakash Singh, 39; Ranjit Singh, 49; Sita Singh, 41.
Dec. 14, 2012, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. : Charlotte Bacon, 6; Daniel Barden, 7; Rachel D’Avino, 29; Olivia Engel, 6; Josephine Gay, 7; Dylan Hockley, 6; Dawn Hocksprung, 47; Madeleine F. Hsu, 6; Catherine V. Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; Jesse Lewis, 6; Ana M. Marquez-Greene, 6; James Mattioli, 6; Grace McDonnell, 7; Anne Marie Murphy, 52; Emilie Parker, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Noah Pozner, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Jessica Rekos, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Lauren Russeau, 30; Mary Sherlach, 56; Victoria Soto, 27; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison N. Wyatt, 6.
Sept. 16, 2013, at the Washington Navy Yard in the District : Michael Arnold, 59; Martin Bodrog, 54; Arthur Daniels, 51; Sylvia Frasier, 53; Kathy Gaarde, 62; John Roger Johnson, 73; Mary Frances DeLorenzo Knight, 51; Frank Kohler, 51; Vishnu Bhalchandra Pandit, 61; Kenneth Bernard Proctor, 46; Gerald Read, 58; Richard Michael Ridgell, 52.
April 2, 2014, at Fort Hood near Killeen, Tex. : Daniel M. Ferguson, 39; Carlos A. Lazaney-Rodriguez, 38; Timothy Wayne Owens, 37.
April 13, 2014, at the Jewish Community Center of Greater Kansas City and the Village Shalom Retirement Center, both in Overland Park, Kan. : William Lewis Corporon, 69; Terri LaManno, 53; Reat Griffin Underwood, 14.
June 17, 2015, at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C. : Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45; DePayne V. Middleton Doctor, 49; Cynthia Graham Hurd, 54; Susie Jackson, 87; Ethel Lee Lance, 70; Clementa C. Pinckney, 41; Tywanza Sanders, 26; Daniel Simmons, 74; Myra Thompson, 59.
July 16, 2015, at an armed services recruiting center and a Navy reserve center in Chattanooga, Tenn. : Carson A. Holmquist, 25; Randall Smith, 26; Thomas J. Sullivan, 40; Squire K. “Skip” Wells, 21; David A. Wyatt, 35 .
All the BOLDED (14) "MASS/SCHOOL SHOOTING" events were under.... OBAMA's WATCH and in just the past SIX years!!
And he comes on national TV to let us all know that he is "Outraged".
One (underlined) under CLINTON's (1) Watch!!!
That's 15 outta 20 in the past 16 years have been under the watchful eye of Dem POTUS's.
Just like all them Violent INNER CITY Gun related shootings. DEM Mayors.
Noooooooooooooo, can't be.
WTF is up with that??
EDIT:
MY Bad.... It's all Reagan and Bush's fault. All carried over from their tenure. Gotcha.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nothing. It's the do-nothing Republican Congress's watch. They're owned by the gun manufacturers and gun fanatics like you.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Bob.
Nuke this POS.
Please.
And don't bring another one back.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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F*#k you, Jim.
And I mean that sincerely.
Love, apogee.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 4, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
Gee, I wonder why there haven't been any Mass Shootings there with everybody packing openly and all.
.... perhaps because it's largest ethnic group is French or French-Canadian?
Racist!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Valedictorian?
Shee-it....I was lucky to walk out of there with a diploma.
Nah, my only aspiration around valedictorians was directed at the cutie-pie at my school. And it had nothing to do with academics.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Perhaps you could publish the names of the other 180,000 poor souls who were murdered in the USA in the last 15 years. I think their deaths, though perhaps experienced at times singularly and alone merit as much acknowledgement.
As well as the over 1.3 or so MILLION names of those that have died as direct result of the totally legal alcohol consumption during the same period of time.
Now we all know what happened when the Guberment tried to "control" that.. don't we?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Now we all know what happened when the Guberment tried to "control" that.. don't we?
Oh, so we know who got stopped at a sobriety checkpoint, don't we?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Depends on whose hands we're talking about. And the type of rubber gloves- everyone knows organic, grass-fed rubber plants make for the most tantric experience.
I learned that from a book I bought at Whole Foods. It had Sting on the cover.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oh, so we know who got stopped at a sobriety checkpoint, don't we?
"WE" do... Who?
Well, the 1.3 or so MILLION that have died the past 15 years, didn't. Wonderful.
Oh Boy Ken. Your coming around...... slowly but surely.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Wow... I step out and do some shooting and climbing(not all at once), and find this fine new mess.
I must admit that the Chief does seem to own this thread too. Facts vs. name calling and the inevitable penis-analogies when they have completely run out of names.
Hang in there good man!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Good try Bob. Climbing threads die on their own in hours but you can nuke a political one and it will rise, Phoenix like, from the ashes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Yikes!
Just checked in again, and....
Jonnyrig for the win.
Later, boys.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2015 - 06:47am PT
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Wow...you go away for a night and bam. Sorry you feel that way Ed, what ever I done in/for climbing is nothing compared to the relationship with my wife (41 married) raising our three children, trying to be a good brother to my only sister and being a good friend to people I know and care about.
I am a little passionate about the direction of this country and honestly don't think I'll change change it by posting on a climbing related site, my intention is get the opinions and facts of people who have a similar interest to me (climbing).
Also, it been raining for three day here northern NM and my type A personality is getting cabin fever. I have always enjoyed your posts on FB and hopefully my bird and landscape photos added some good to your day.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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philo
climber
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So if guns don't kill people then neither do cigarettes, automobiles, toxic waste spills, radioactive contamination or smart bombs. It's all BS to protect the producers from liability.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2015 - 06:47am PT
I am a little passionate about the direction of this country ...
REALLY BOBda, then WTF is this shet......
Nice try, Bob.
At a community college in Roseburg, Ore., last week, nine people were killed: Lucero Alcaraz, 19; Treven Taylor Anspach, 20; Rebecka Ann Carnes, 18; Quinn Glen Cooper, 18; Kim Saltmarsh Dietz, 59; Lucas Eibel, 18; Jason Dale Johnson, 33; Lawrence Levine, 67; Sarena Dawn Moore, 44.
April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. : Cassie Bernall, 17; Steven Curnow, 14; Corey DePooter, 17; Kelly Fleming, 16; Matthew Kechter, 16; Daniel Mauser, 15; Daniel Rohrbough, 15; William “Dave” Sanders, 47; Rachel Scott, 17; Isaiah Shoels, 18; John Tomlin, 16; Lauren Townsend, 18; Kyle Velasquez, 16.
Dec. 26, 2000, at Edgewater Technology in Wakefield, Mass. : Jennifer Bragg Capobianco, 29; Janice Hagerty, 46; Louis “Sandy” Javelle, 58; Rose Manfredi, 48; Paul Marceau, 36; Cheryl Troy, 50; Craig Wood, 29.
March 21, 2005, at Red Lake High School on the Red Lake Indian Reservation in Red Lake, Minn. : Derrick Brun, 28; Dewayne Lewis, 15; Chase Lussier, 15; Daryl Lussier, 58; Neva Rogers, 62; Chanelle Rosebear, 15; Michelle Sigana, 32; Thurlene Stillday, 15; Alicia White, 15.
Oct. 2, 2006, at an Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa. : Naomi Ebersol, 7; Marian Stoltzfus Fisher, 13; Lena Zook Miller, 7 ; Mary Liz Miller, 8 ; Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12.
April 16, 2007, at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. : Ross Abdallah Alameddine, 20; Christopher James “Jamie” Bishop, 35; Brian Bluhm, 25; Ryan Clark, 22; Austin Cloyd, 18; Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, 49; Daniel Perez Cueva, 21; Kevin Granata, 46; Matthew G. Gwaltney, 24; Caitlin Hammaren, 19; Jeremy Herbstritt, 27; Rachael Elizabeth Hill, 18; Emily Hilscher, 19; Jarrett Lane, 22; Matthew J. La Porte, 20; Henry Lee, 20; Liviu Librescu, 76; G.V. Loganathan, 51; Partahi Lumbantoruan, 34; Lauren McCain, 20; Daniel O’Neil, 22; Juan Ramon Ortiz, 26; Minal Panchal, 26; Erin Peterson, 18; Michael Pohle, 23; Julia Pryde, 23; Mary Read, 19; Reema Samaha, 18; Waleed Shaalan, 32; Leslie Sherman, 20; Maxine Turner, 22; Nicole R. White, 20.
Dec. 5, 2007, at the Westroads Mall in Omaha : Beverly Flynn, 47; Janet Jorgensen, 66; Gary Joy, 56; John McDonald, 65; Gary Scharf, 48; Angie Schuster, 36; Dianne Trent, 53; Maggie Webb, 24.
April 3, 2009, American Civic Association immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y. : Parveen Nln Ali, 26; Almir O. Alves, 43; Marc Henry Bernard, 44; Maria Sonia Bernard, 46; Hai Hong Zhong, 54; Hong Xiu Mao, 35; Jiang Ling, 22; Layla Khalil, 57; Roberta King, 72; Lan Ho, 39; Li Guo, 47;Dolores Yigal, 53; Maria Zobniw, 60.
Nov. 5, 2009, at Fort Hood, near Killeen, Tex. : Michael Grant Cahill, 62; Libardo Eduardo Caraveo, 52; Justin Michael DeCrow, 32; John P. Gaffaney, 56; Frederick Greene, 29; Jason Dean Hunt, 22; Amy S. Krueger, 29; Aaron Thomas Nemelka, 19; Michael S. Pearson, 22; Russell Seager, 51; Francheska Velez, 21; Juanita L. Warman, 55; Kham See Xiong, 23.
Jan. 8, 2011, in the parking lot of a grocery store in Tucson : Christina Taylor Green, 9; Dorothy Morris, 76; John M. Roll, 63; Phyllis Schneck, 79; Dorwan Stoddard, 76; Gabriel Zimmerman, 30.
Feb. 27, 2012, at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio : Demetrius Hewlin, 16; Russell King, Jr., 17; Daniel Parmertor, 16.
April 2, 2012, at Oikos University in Oakland, Calif. : Tshering Rinzing Bhutia, 38; Doris Chibuko, 40; Sonam Choedon, 33; Grace Eunhea Kim, 23; Katleen Ping, 24; Judith O. Seymour, 53; Lydia Sim, 21.
July 20, 2012, at the Century Aurora 16 movie complex in Aurora, Colo. : Jonathan Blunk, 26: A.J. Boik, 18; Jesse Childress, 29; Gordon W. Cowden, 51; Jessica Ghawi, 24; John Thomas Larimer, 27; Matthew McQuinn, 27; Micayla Medek, 23; Veronica Moser-Sullivan, 6; Alex Matthew Sullivan, 27; Alexander Teves, 24; Rebecca Ann Wingo, 3.
Aug. 5, 2012, at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek, Wis. : Satwant Singh Kaleka, 65; Suveg Singh Khattra, 84; Paramjit Kaur, 41; Prakash Singh, 39; Ranjit Singh, 49; Sita Singh, 41.
Dec. 14, 2012, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. : Charlotte Bacon, 6; Daniel Barden, 7; Rachel D’Avino, 29; Olivia Engel, 6; Josephine Gay, 7; Dylan Hockley, 6; Dawn Hocksprung, 47; Madeleine F. Hsu, 6; Catherine V. Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; Jesse Lewis, 6; Ana M. Marquez-Greene, 6; James Mattioli, 6; Grace McDonnell, 7; Anne Marie Murphy, 52; Emilie Parker, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Noah Pozner, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Jessica Rekos, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Lauren Russeau, 30; Mary Sherlach, 56; Victoria Soto, 27; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison N. Wyatt, 6.
Sept. 16, 2013, at the Washington Navy Yard in the District : Michael Arnold, 59; Martin Bodrog, 54; Arthur Daniels, 51; Sylvia Frasier, 53; Kathy Gaarde, 62; John Roger Johnson, 73; Mary Frances DeLorenzo Knight, 51; Frank Kohler, 51; Vishnu Bhalchandra Pandit, 61; Kenneth Bernard Proctor, 46; Gerald Read, 58; Richard Michael Ridgell, 52.
April 2, 2014, at Fort Hood near Killeen, Tex. : Daniel M. Ferguson, 39; Carlos A. Lazaney-Rodriguez, 38; Timothy Wayne Owens, 37.
April 13, 2014, at the Jewish Community Center of Greater Kansas City and the Village Shalom Retirement Center, both in Overland Park, Kan. : William Lewis Corporon, 69; Terri LaManno, 53; Reat Griffin Underwood, 14.
June 17, 2015, at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C. : Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45; DePayne V. Middleton Doctor, 49; Cynthia Graham Hurd, 54; Susie Jackson, 87; Ethel Lee Lance, 70; Clementa C. Pinckney, 41; Tywanza Sanders, 26; Daniel Simmons, 74; Myra Thompson, 59.
July 16, 2015, at an armed services recruiting center and a Navy reserve center in Chattanooga, Tenn. : Carson A. Holmquist, 25; Randall Smith, 26; Thomas J. Sullivan, 40; Squire K. “Skip” Wells, 21; David A. Wyatt, 35 .
All the BOLDED (14) "MASS/SCHOOL SHOOTING" events were under.... OBAMA's WATCH and in just the past SIX years!!
And he comes on national TV to let us all know that he is "Outraged".
One (underlined) under CLINTON's (1) Watch!!!
That's 15 outta 20 in the past 16 years have been under the watchful eye of Dem POTUS's.
Just like most of all them Violent INNER CITY Gun related shootings. DEM Mayors.
Noooooooooooooo, can't be.
WTF is up with that??
EDIT:
OH... MY BAD, it's ALL a carry over from, BUSH and it's ALL his fault.
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philo
climber
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Yes it all corresponds to the current and insane misrepresentation of the 2nd Ammendment that really ramped up to fever pitch when the Black Man got the White House.
So all the parasites crawled out from under the barrels where they were skulking and open carried their sociopathy to political rally's and fast food joints.
The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
27 of the most misinterpreted words in AmeriKKKa.
It can be fixed.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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ALL those CITIES are run by DEMOCRATIC MAYORS!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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For christ's sake. This is ridiculous.
Nuke! Nuke! Nuke!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Oct 4, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
Nothing. It's the do-nothing Republican Congress's watch. They're owned by the gun manufacturers and gun fanatics like you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Really, CrankLOONstar!!
WTF happened to this badass OBAMA "I gotta a Pen and a Phone" tough shettalk...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Like everything else OBAMA does, it's all nothing but...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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philo
climber
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No Apogee this isn't ridiculous, the chief is ridiculous let him continue to discredit himself.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Before OBAMA even thinks about taking anyone's guns away, mentally ill or not, someone needs to take that fking pen away from him before he pokes himself in the eye with it.
Cus he sure aint gonna use it like he shet talked he would.
OH! And while you're at it, tell him to recharge that phone of his. It's dead. Has been for a longass time.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Well, if the primary purpose of this thread is to allow individuals to show themselves to be who they really are, is that really necessary?
The Chief is who he is, and that's pretty well known to all. I can't see how a thread like this does anything to enlighten anyone else to anything.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Well, if the primary purpose of this thread is to allow individuals to show themselves to be who they really are, is that really necessary?
AH, you must mean like this totally insane "Stooooooooopid" shet....
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Come on, Apogee. This is the same old Supertopo political two-step.
"You suck!"
"You suck more!"
Rinse, lather, repeat.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Susan
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dirtbag
climber
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For christ's sake. This is ridiculous.
Nuke! Nuke! Nuke!
Indeed.
Once again, we have a thread that has turned out to be all about the Chief.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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it is 2015, he who has the best meme wins.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Drama queens
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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This is how the NRA is the problem:
Dontray Mills was eventually charged with 55 counts of buying firearms with fake identification and dealing weapons without a license. He struck a plea bargain with federal prosecutors and pleaded guilty to one count. In August 2015, U.S. District Judge Rudolph Randa sentence Mills to one year of probation and no jailtime, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
In giving probation with no jail time to a Milwaukee man charged with 55 counts of buying firearms with fake identification and dealing them without a license, a federal judge delivered a message:
“People kill people,” U.S. District Rudolph Randa said, echoing a common gun rights slogan. “Guns don’t kill people.” http://www.truthorfiction.com/department-of-justice-plea-bargain-for-dontray-mills/
Definitely Obama's fault! Nice catch, The Chief!
In 1992, Randa was appointed by President George H. W. Bush to become a federal district judge in the Eastern District of Wisconsin. Randa's nomination was confirmed by the United States Senate on August 11, 1992 on unanimous consent. Randa succeeded Judge Robert Warren. Randa served as Chief Judge of the District from 2002-2009. In 2002, Randa was appointed by Supreme Court Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist to serve on the Codes of Conduct Committee of the U.S. Judicial Conference. He served on the Codes of Conduct Committee until 2008.[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_T._Randa
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Hey Gary Schenk...
Dontray Mills was eventually charged with 55 counts of buying firearms with fake identification and dealing weapons without a license. He struck a plea bargain with federal prosecutors and pleaded guilty to one count. In August 2015, U.S. District Judge Rudolph Randa sentence Mills to one year of probation and no jailtime, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
Now for the "Rest of the Story" and the Reality that exists outside the Liberal Bubble world:
The Judge, regardless who the fk he/she is, has their hands tied and can ONLY sentence an individual according to the sentencing parameters and "plea bargain" agreement by the individuals attorney and prosecutor/s for the crime the accused confessed "Guilty" to. No MORE.
Other wise the sentencing would most assuredly be over turned on an appeal due to NOT fitting those sentencing protocols & "plea bargain" agreement by a higher court and the charge/s, in most cases, would then be dropped all together.
BTW: The ACLU loves that kind of issue and has come to the defense of thousands for that type of sentencing dereliction and abuse. Go figure.
Go FISH Gary Schenk...
Rick Poedtke
ABHC(CNAC/NPJ) USN(RET)
Bishop, CA
93514
EDIT:
Just came back from a four mile walk with the Wife and Four Kids....
First "Snow" of the season:
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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No, Cosmic, it's the Yogi Berra Memorial Thread - "It's like deja vu all over, again."
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jstan
climber
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A funny story.
A friend living in NYC on a first floor woke up in the middle of the night. She could hear there
was one person already in the room and another climbing through the window. Immediately
after closing the breech on her shotgun the two potential assailants nearly killed themselves
going out the window.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^ Sounds like she was partially following Vice President Joe Biden's "Get a Double Barrel Shotgun for home defense" advice.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
YOU GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JOE!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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The American kind of safety for everybody
Who is getting rich?
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overwatch
climber
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That's what I'm talkin about...back to old school. No guns allowed but knuckles, knives and swords are good to go.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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5107 arrested AND convicted so far since 2012 of committing gang/drug related GUN VIOLENCE/MURDERs with ILLEGAL WEAPONS....
AND SO ON.....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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^If all gunz were legal then at least they wouldn't be doing their crimes with illegal weapons?
This has almost 25 million views on Youtube, probably more than any thread yet on the ST...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Chiefy seems to agree that more sensible gun control is needed so it's not so easy for gangbangers to get guns.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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monolith
climber
state of being
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TGT has an obsession with Chicago, even though more gun murders per capita happen in Texas than Illinois.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Sell a firearm to a known criminal face a 20-spot yourself for the troubles.
You mean like how our own government behaved during operation "Fast and Furious?" Selling guns to Mexican drug cartels and leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of Mexican Citizens?
You mean like that?
This entire government needs a "20-spot"
Edit:
Didn't think you would. You are very predictable....
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Allow your firearms to be stolen, be held partially liable in civil court for any resulting mayhem that gun is used to perpetrate. Victims can sue you directly.
That is exactly what happened to Kate Steinle who was killed by an illegal alien in San Francisco.
Of course, the gun was stolen from a Federal Agent so you most likely would give it a pass....
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Sell a firearm to a known criminal face a 20-spot yourself for the troubles.
Good start. Then after that, we can seize all firearms for destruction. The gun activists refuse to make any concessions? Well, two can play that game.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The gun activists refuse to make any concessions? Well, two can play that game.
The difference is that the "gun activists" have always held the default position, while your pipe-dream is just that.
National gun confiscation is never gonna happen. You need to find compromise solutions far more than the "gun activists" do.
And you need to accept real and proven solutions to such events as school shootings (as I suggested above), because the "gun free zone" bit ain't makin' it.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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MB1:
because the "gun free zone" bit ain't makin' it.
BUT BUT BUT ... Sen. Feinstein says....
Yup, just they all did the past 16 years....
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philo
climber
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The Campus in Oregon was not a gun free zone so you can take your hackneyed assumption and cram it up your O-ring.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Philo writes:
"The Campus in Oregon was not a gun free zone so you can take your hackneyed assumption and cram it up your O-ring."
It was for the students and the faculty.
Read it for yourself, straight from the Umpqua C.C. Student Handbook:
https://www.umpqua.edu/safety-security-information
"Possession, use, or threatened use of firearms (including but not limited to BB guns, air guns, water pistols, and paint guns) ammunition, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or any other objects as weapons on college property, except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations, is prohibited."
Possession of firearms is prohibited at Umpqua, but it's not a gun free zone. OK Philo. If you think so.
What's your definition of a "gun free zone", Philo? It seems yours is different from the one the rest of us are going with.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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The campus had a policy of no guns but the state allowed for conceal carry.
It isn't cut and dry like Philo wants your o-ring to believe....
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/umpquagunfree.asp
Umpqua had a policy of no guns. It was essentially a gun free zone. Not even the lone security guard was allowed a gun....
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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In the imagined "gun-free zone," even the most inept miscreant with a gun is king.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^^ Yeah, and "doing something" completely unrelated to the ACTUAL problem of keeping kids safe in "gun free" zones, like passing a pile of COMPLETELY unrelated legislation... yeah, that's gonna make 'em feel safer. Oh, and it'll WORK too. Because we SAID, dang it.
You can't have it both ways. Either do something that WILL work to keep 'em safe, or quit wringing your hands because you CAN'T get something done that won't keep 'em safe anyway.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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And by "WILL work" you refer to the gigantic leap to arming everybody? Nuts. WON''T work.
"Can't get something done"? Well, yes, with conservatives like you in control of congress...eating out of the hands of the gun lobby.
Nobody's coming for your guns. There will be no confiscation. Proposals mentioned are about increased background checks.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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you refer to the gigantic leap to arming everybody?
I was very clear in my proposal. Put a few reserve soldiers around campus. They don't have to roam all over. Just make it publicly clear to wannabe active shooters that if they try something, they will have seconds rather than many minutes before they will be facing a trained, well-armed response. Seconds count, and having military on site will ensure that as few seconds are expended as possible.
Look, either you WANT well-trained people actively protecting kids, or you want them to take their chances.
Background checks might have value for OTHER reasons, but that legislation will do nothing to protect kids in schools. Quit trying to connect such legislation up with incidents like school shootings, as though these incidents justify the legislation.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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We're a long ways from armed soldiers on our kids school grounds, thankfully. And to think when Archie Bunker suggested arming airline passengers everyone knew it was satire. Sad.
Why you ignore the obvious; the easy availability of guns, is really troubling.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And to think when Archie Bunker suggested arming airline passengers everyone knew it was satire. Sad.
And yet, through no fault of our own, here we are. Sad indeed.
Why you ignore the obvious; the easy availability of guns, is really troubling.
Okay, so what do you want?
Let's say I could grant you immediate and fully-enforced universal background checks. Poof, there you go. You have it.
Now, WHEN the NEXT school shooting occurs, which it WILL, what NEW (and equally unrelated) law do you want to be passed?
WHAT does it take? That's what I want to know.
Gary demands confiscation, which is patently ridiculous. What do YOU want? What does it take to make YOU happy and in your world to make the kids safe?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Arm up bitch. No gunz were harmed in the making of this video.
I gave Allen a go once (he has a gym right over in Spring Valley), he whooped my ass.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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philo
climber
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Yea reserve soldiers never snap when their PTSD kicks in. What could go wrong?
And yet, through no fault of our own, here we are. Sad indeed. "Through no fault of our own" are you kidding me?
What an ignorant statement. We are who is to blame. We let this insanity get out of control. We voted for the slime who made it possible. We can real it back and bring back sanity. Even if it will make Ted Nugent and the other tough guys cry like little bitchy babies.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Never got a chance to try on The Big Cat for size.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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You owe me 6:10 The.
Gibberish.
I coulda been out training.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Simple question: What do you WANT?
WHAT makes you feel like the kids are safe? What law or slate of laws makes the kids safe?
You don't want trained soldiers. You don't want ANYBODY actually armed on-scene BEFORE the SHTF (even though EVERY federal politician, celebrity (including whining Jim Carrey), and public figure is surrounded by ON-SCENE armed guards).
So, WHAT is going to keep the kids safe? Give me your BEST scenario that does not include confiscating ALL guns (because that is not even remotely a real-world scenario).
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Pro tip:
If anything is ever promoted as "For the Children", it's a lie.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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How about a neutron bomb like weapon that would kill everybody within 2 feet of gunpowder residue.
Would not be utilized, obviously, without first warning everybody to turn in their ammunition, which even Scalia agrees there is no Second Amendment right to under the Constitution.
Psssst, the gun's not loaded.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Pro tip:
If anything is ever promoted as "For the Children", it's a lie.
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuup!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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philo
climber
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I guess Brady's brain was a gun free zone.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Things seem to be going quite well here.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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SUPREME COURT LETS STAND GUN STORAGE REQUIREMENT, BAN ON HOLLOW POINT AMMO
On June 8 [2015], the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) chose not to overturn two gun controls in San Francisco, one of which requires gun owners to lock their guns up in their homes and another which bans hollow point ammunition.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"The 'reasoning' (lol) against gun restriction laws betrays its stupidity once again."
You're surprised ineffective pointless laws don't have more support?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Y'all might want to look into what happens legally when someone uses a gun against [a white person] in self-defense [Alito's favorite] in his own house.
Of course non-white intruders are treated differently. As it should be, right?
Gang-members by definition are not white, which is troubling for the Aryan Nation, but it's their choice.
***
In any event if you want to prevent a lot of gun carnage in the U.S., just leave it to the insurance companies.
They certainly used to (until the dread Obamacare) determine many folks right to live or die, no?
You wanna gun in yo house, you pay the premium.
The "free" market will rule, if just given a chance.
According to the New England Journal of Medicine, the risk of homicide increases by 40% for those who live in a home that contains a gun. Since insurance companies are all about risk assessment, they may adjust your rates based on this statistic and raise them, enforce safety requirements about storage, or they may decide not to offer you coverage. If you have a gun, but also have a criminal record involving use of a gun, the insurance company may raise your premium costs or opt not to extend coverage for you. It will depend on your company, the agent you work with, and your personal gun use and past history.
Dare I say, stoopid American, non-insurance company workers?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Gang-members by definition are not white...
Says who?
The Biggest, Oldest and by far the worst crime wise and sellers of illegal guns gang in the US, is/are:
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zBrown
Ice climber
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They are in a gang, and by definition, not white and safe to shoot.
Read what I said, don't try to think it through.
Cliff notes. The first part is just the setup. The real solution is in the insurance industry.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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California Bar Association..?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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By "definition"?
They are the epitome and foundation of the definition of ... "a gang". They have just been under the disguise of calling themselves a "Club" since 1948.
And you would NOT want any of those Motherfkers breaking into your house and you not being armed to the teeth. They do NOT fk around. Period.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Y'all better take this insurance issue seriously. It is going to be.
You have to have car insurance, right?
Gun owners will soon find it impossible to purchase insurance without all the "stuff" that many are so adament about not being implememented now.
Safes, lockups, background checks ....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Why this mother didn't recognize that her son was a threat, that's mind blowing.
Now we're gettin' onto the same page.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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And who is going to enforce the "safes and Lockups"?
When was the last time your car insurance agent came out to your house and did a full inspection on your vehicle/s? When?
I have NEVER had an insurance agent EVER look over any of my vehicles/motorcycles.
Keep dreaming.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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They won't have to (though I did have an agent come to my house once and do a walk through). The penalty for failure to comply will be too onerous.
There is no right to insurance guaranteed in the constitution.
You will soon [don't pin me down on the date] be required to have a device to record and transmit your vehicle utilization data to the INCO (that's Navy talk) in order to purchase car insurance.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The penalty for failure to comply will be too onerous.
I have owned 23 motorcycles over the past 40 years and NOT once did a DMV or Insurance official ever do a inspection on em. I just answer em over the phone or in person what I know needs to be said in order comply etc.
Like the system is going to change for a single hand gun in the house.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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INCO First Amendment.
This includes all motor vehicles to be operated by insured, whether on or off road, and without regard to where housed or stored.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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JIM
I just did. Hit a deer and fked up my whole front end.
Since I live out here in Bullpeckersfallsnowhere CA, State Farm simply had the body shop in town that is doing the work do the "inspection" and appraisal then submit the claim to their home office in Phoenix. They sent me the check for the appraisal.
NOT one insurance agent or adjuster ever looked at my truck.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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I got three quads in the garage. Not once has either the DMV nor my Insurance agent ever looked at em to inspect and see if they meet current CA spark and emissions reqs.
The DMV just sends me a bill for registration every two years as does the Insurance once every six months. I pay em and that is it. Get my tags and policy in the mail. Done.
Anyone here really think that all that is going to change for one or two handguns and a totally legal long rifle in the home? Seriously?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Like shet is going to change.... all for a gun.
Over 300 MILLION of em... legal that is.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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That sounds like the difference between town and country insurance and the years you paid into various policies with the same insurance company, before having a problem.
And the exact same mediocrity will prevail for anything to do with guns. They do not have the man power to follow through on it. Nor is it cost effective.
That is the reality in this country.
There are over 1500 gun control laws on the books throughout this nation. NOT one could have prevented most of the school and mass shootings. NOT one.
This last shooter had a clean driving and criminal record and has NEVER been seen by mental health provider for any past issues, never.
So in a realistic term, please do tell us how this latest whacked out dude could have been stopped from completing his manifesto?
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John M
climber
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whole lot of autos out there too..
things changed. It often happens slow, but it does happen. Too bad people are so screwed up they can't talk decently about the subject. I don't really know the solutions, but like auto insurance, if you don't have it and you hurt someone, you pay out big.. so most people have insurance. Not because the cops do that much checking, but because of what happens after.
So with guns, making the parents responsible for what their under age kids have access to would be how some laws could be enforced. Change would happen slowly, but it would happen. And there will always be some who try to cheat the system.
I don't really know what the best solutions are, thats why I would love to hear a civilized discussion.
I would probably start with better availability of counseling and better trained counselors who actually have the time.
The state of our current public mental health care is pathetic.
So I guess kids are cheaper.
Because we just don't seem to get it, having armed guards might be the easiest solution. But what are you going to do at movie theaters? Arm the ticket taker?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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, if you don't have it and you hurt someone, you pay out big
REally?
My Son in law just got nailed {T-Boned after running a red light) by an Illegal with NO insurance. Guess what...
The Illegal ran never to be found, the vehicle he was driving was stolen and my S-I-L had to pay his $1K deductible for his Uninsured Motorist claim.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The LAST shooter in OR had NO recorded mental health issues nor criminal record.
How do you John M determine his fate to NOT own a gun/s?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Insurance covers accidents and there is not an insurer in business who covers willful acts of violence.
Ergo, such coverage will never exist.
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John M
climber
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I know that some parent do a good job and still things don't turn out well. They have one kid who turns out well and one who doesn't. They take the kid to counseling, they do everything that they can, and still the kid turns out bad. For them the responsibility should be mitigated by a judge. But sadly we often can't trust judges because humans are just plain messed up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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And what of the young pilot who stuffed several hundred people into the side of a mountain recently? Oh yes... I forgot, he used a plane. No narrative there to be exploited. Notice how quickly that dropped into the memory hole.
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John M
climber
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Insurance covers accidents and there is not an insurer in business who covers willful acts of violence.
Erg
I was talking about how to hold parents more responsible so that they would take more steps to ensure that their whacked out kid doesn't have access to guns. It wouldn't stop some cases, but it might slow down a few. Much like education is helping kids recognize the signs and know when to tell someone, which recently stopped some kids in Sonora who were pretty far down the path of doing something terrible.
If we just sit on our hands and say.. oh well, gun control doesn't work, then we will get nowhere but further down the road of violence. It will take ingenuity and wisdom to find some things that work, but I believe that it is possible, though I sadly don't have much faith in the average person. Thats why some new ideas are needed.
Most people now do have auto insurance, though it was heavily fought when first made mandatory.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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legally drive a motor vehicle
Key word, "legallly". How do know who is legally driving a vehicle and who is not?
Most illegal activities are found out AFTER the fact. In this gun issue case, it's too late.
The airline pilot mental health issue individual was a statistical anomaly
And these "Mass Shootings" aren't?
There are over 300 MILLION legally registered "gun owners" to date in the US.
According to the list that Crankaloon posted last night, there have been 20 mass shootings in the US the past 16 years. Do the statistical formula for them odds.
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John M
climber
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open your mind Chief. I said it wouldn't stop every case, but the more we know and the more that we do, the more positive things can happen. Sitting on our hands doing nothing is counterproductive.
And based on some of that young mans actions, I believe that the signs were there.
You have experience Chief. I bet you could see the signs when it was time to stand down one of your crew members. Experience counts. Thats why I agreed with some of what Ron said about the forest service not valuing some of their most experienced people. The problem is that you also get entrenched nimrods. So we throw the baby out with the bath water because we don't know what else to do.
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John M
climber
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Jim, there are penalties here in america too. But that doesn't stop some people, like illegal aliens. No law is perfect.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The LAST shooter in OR had NO recorded mental health issues nor criminal record. He was a loner and stayed at home most of the time.
How do you John M determine his fate to NOT own a gun/s?
No law is perfect.
And there are over 1500 Fed, State and Local Gun Control Laws on the books in this nation to date.
How many more do we need to add to those that list.
How about we start enforcing them laws and throw more on the table that won't get enforced through plea bargains, crowded jails, racial profiling defense etc.
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John M
climber
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Chief, you are saying by using statistics that those kids who have been shot are not worth the effort. Plus what about the trauma to the rest of the kids? We are currently devolving because our only solution seems to be more guns. Really? That is your solution? More guns everywhere? Huh.. I thought we learned something during the wild wild west.
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John M
climber
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Its not quantity Chief. Its wisdom. It does no good to ban guns in Chicago if you can drive down the road and obtain them legally.
again, I don't believe that any law would stop every case.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Chief, you are saying by using statistics that those kids who have been shot are not worth the effort.
No. But do tell me how this last "shooter" in OR could have been prevented.
Zero "recorded" Mental Health issues and a clean criminal record.
Lanza acquired his weps from his Mothers house after terminating her.
Holmes's background checks, as required by federal law, were properly conducted, and he was approved, He had NO official record of mental illness.
The Freak kid in SC got his gun as a gift from his father.
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John M
climber
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again, I don't believe that any law would stop every case.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Zero "recorded" Mental Health issues and a clean criminal record.
Wrong, Chief.
Mother and son were both diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. Kid was hospitalized.
gunman’s mother sometimes confided the difficulties she had in raising her son, including that she had placed Mr. Harper-Mercer in a psychiatric hospital when he did not take his medication
s. Jefferson said Ms. Harper had described bringing her son to the Del Amo Behavioral Health System in Torrance, Calif., near where they had lived before moving to Oregon.
“He calls and says, ‘Take me out, take me out,’ ” Ms. Jefferson said, recalling her conversations with Ms. Harper. “She didn’t take him out until the doctor said he was ready to get out.”
The Newtown shooter was as well
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20121218/aspergers-violence
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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DUDE LORENZO...
Wrong, Chief.
Mother and son were both diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, an autism spectrum disorder. Kid was hospitalized.
Nothing in that article states that she nor the Kid were currently under official "Mental Health" treatment.
Nor is there anything other than her, the Mothers word, in that article that shows anything "Official" of such. And she indicates NO "Official" dates when these events occurred.
And if she was so fking worried about his behavior, why the fk did she have over 14 "guns" in the house?
Also, most "child" health and criminal records become sealed (and most just plain destroyed) when they become 18 by most if not all states.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Can you have a conversation without any DUUUDES or other put Downs?
Show me ONE study that show Aspergers is cured. All I see is controlling with medication, which he was prescribed , and according to the mother, didn't like taking.
Or show me a report where a doctor said anything like " sure, this kid is perfectly OK packing semiautomatic weapons"
You said he had no mental Heath record.
That's a lie.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Show me ONE study that show Aspergers is cured..... You said he had no mental Heath record.
That's a lie.
Show me where in this case there was any evidence of any OFFICIAL RECORDED diagnoses of such?
The Mothers word in a NYT article is no where near "Official".
I have yet to see or hear any FBI or LE investigation state anything of the sorts.
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John M
climber
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http://news.yahoo.com/pastors-sermon-violence-not-last-word-054629283.html#
this article says the mother knew about some mental health issues. It doesn't' describe them.
More and more information will come out as this plays out.
The problem today is that its not that easy to get your kid help. Plus its expensive and sometimes kind of worthless.
During one of my episodes with being suicidal I went to the county for help.. They put me in a group counseling session with 20 other people. I got 3 minutes to "talk". Not much help.
Then they gave me individual counseling, but the person they sent me to was poorly trained and spent our first hour together talking about her families problems. They gave me 6 sessions with her. After that I was supposed to be healed.
That was the extent of the help that I got from the county. I have spent out of my own pocket most of my income on health care, both mental and physical. Most of the time after the problem was greatly magnified because I couldn't afford to get care early. Our national health care system should help with that, but there is still more that can be done.
I don't know how many times people have told me that there is help out there if you just look for it. Uh huh..
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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The fact that he was admitted and it was necessary for a doctor to release him means there was a diagnoses and treatment.
You show me otherwise.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The fact that he was admitted and it was necessary for a doctor to release him means there was a diagnoses and treatment.
Where is that FACT?
Has the Mental Health Provider released that info. Or the FBI or LE or....
No FACT!
Who's to say that the Mother is telling the truth? Where is her back up. Your back up other than a NYT article. The article tells NOTHING of seeing any official documentation or records etc. Nothing of the sorts.
Lanza on the other hand had an extensive record of treatment. But he did not purchase a single weapon. He got em all from his mother who he shot and killed.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Read the article. Even the mother admits she and her son both has Aspergers , names the institution where he was admitted, and the son was prescribed medication he didn't take.
Sorry chief, you are just wrong on the point that he had no mental health issues.
The father calls for a change in gun laws to prevent people like him from being able to buy them.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Emotionally disturbed is the same as At Risk Youth/ Learning Disabilities programs. Do your homework John M.
apher)
By Megan Barnes, Daily Breeze
Posted: 10/02/15, 7:39 PM PDT | Updated: 1 day ago
 Comments
Chris Harper-Mercer, gunman in the Oregon Umpqua College shooting, graduated from the Switzer Learning Center in Torrance. (Chuck Bennett / Staff Photographer)
The Torrance school attended by Umpqua Community College mass shooter Chris Harper-Mercer specializes in helping emotionally disturbed students who have behavioral problems.
The Switzer Learning Center, a state-certified nonpublic school serving more than a dozen districts, has a fluctuating population of more than 100 third- through 12th-grade students as old as 22 who have “struggled educationally, emotionally, and behaviorally,” according to its website.
•Related: Oregon gunman Chris Harper-Mercer lived in Torrance, graduated from Switzer Center
Many have learning disabilities, enter the school a few grades behind their peers and had difficulties in traditional classrooms. They are referred to Switzer for “special attention they needed to succeed against seemingly overwhelming obstacles.”
In other words, he had learning disabilities. NOTHING in that article states anything about Mental Health issues and that HE was referred to the center by a psyche. Nothing. His mom enrolled him there.
Are we now to consider a kid with learning disabilities as having Mental Health Issues???
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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mother Laurel, a nurse, wrote on a medical forum that she had an 'Asperger's kid' and told neighbors her son had 'mental issues', according to reports.
BFD!
And two thirds of the clowns on the Super Taco Forum DON'T nor have EVER CLIMBED a rock in their life.
So far NOTHING official has come about. Nothing.
I know ya'll are chomping at the bit to find something, anything to grab everyone's guns. BUT! Before any of you draw any more straws from the NYT or Daily Breeze, I suggest we all wait till the final FBI investigation is concluded and then released.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Keep shouting in the void . Nobody is buying this kid had no mental health issues.
Sofia Camarena of Long Beach, California, told The Oregonian/OregonLive that she used to date Harper-Mercer's father."I used to change Chris' diapers when he was a baby," she said, upset after learning that he was the shooter in Thursday's massacre and was himself dead. "He was born with problems. He was hard to discipline. If you told him 'no,' he would scream like you had just hit him."
Camarena said that she had heard Harper-Mercer's mother was having "a hard time" with him and that he attended a special school.
Camarena said she last saw Harper-Mercer when he was 18 and she had asked him how he was doing. "He said he was doing good," said Camarena, whose son went on to marry Harper-Mercer's step-sister.
There are a number of indications that Harper-Mercer had mental health or behavioral issues. His screen name on some social media sites was "lithium love." Lithium is used as a psychiatric medication.
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raymond phule
climber
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Over 700 posts in one month... He was well behaved in the climate thread in comparison.
Cant we split the forum into a main forum and one sub forum that is all about the chief?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Its not the guns, its the drugs.
the latest: http://www.cchrint.org/2015/10/02/oregon-another-mass-shooting-another-psychiatric-drug-35-school-shootingsmass-stabbings-tied-to-psychiatric-drugs/
historically:
• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.
• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..
• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.
• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")
• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)
• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.
• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.
• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.
• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."
• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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The Chief...You will have the option of attending Schwiter in your near future...rj
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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or perhaps the forum needs
a tiny-thinkers tab.
that way we
confine the drama
to a sub-evolved zoo.
only don't call
it the 'teeny-thinkers tab,'
because that'll put
them on the dense defense
and then they'll break out
and enter the grown-up
threads and impede the
vast social progress
that transpires
on these pages.
so occasionally post
an incognito trap
thread that'll attract
their ignorant zeal
and then throw
them a dumb-crumb
now and then.
and we'll all be
happy.
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philo
climber
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^^^ Hahaha classic.
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philo
climber
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All these tiny frightened minds are an anathema and an embarrassment to this Country.
Why I wonder do they want a world like they advocate. If all citizens of a country need to be armed that nation does not deserve to be considered civilized, advanced or worthy of respect.
Why do they want to turn the USA into Yemen or Somalia?
Hey lil chuffie yer baby killin buddies just bombed a Doctors with out Borders hospital in Kunduz killing over 20 including at least 12 doctors. The GPS coordinates of the hospital were well known by the U.S. Forces. Where is your outrage at this Fukup/war crime!
But by all means post up more gang porn and tell us it's all Obama's fault again.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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If all citizens of a country need to be armed that nation does not deserve to be considered civilized, advanced or worthy of respect.
You mean like Switzerland?
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philo
climber
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They don't walk around in Switzerland like petulant drunken adolescents waving guns in people's faces to make up for developmental inadequacies.
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philo
climber
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Then be sure to avow that nothing can change for the better.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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yer baby killin buddies just bombed a Doctors with out Borders hospital in Kunduz killing over 20 including at least 12 doctors. The GPS coordinates of the hospital were well known by the U.S. Forces. Where is your outrage at this Fukup/war crime!
Philo report also mentions that Taliban were infesting that hospital..
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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From another thread:
Life is too short to be an as#@&%e & to be angry all the time.
What benefit does one get from being a dick to others? Do you sit there and pat yourself on the back because you upset someone? Do you win a special prize from the as#@&%e committee? I used to do it because my life was empty and I was miserable. I felt better about myself for putting others down. F*#ked up, eh?
I guess I still do it from time to time, like poking fun or making snarky comments, but it's not as bad as it used to be like 10 + years ago.
I also acknowledge when I am being an ass and if I am out of line, I have enough sense to apologize.
For the most part, I feel really sorry for these types. You know there's something wrong or missing in their life if they get off on being losers.
I hope they find what is missing one day...
Thanks Anita
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philo
climber
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Fair enough. I changed the pic to a less gruesome one from the aftermath of the hospital bombing in Kunduz. No reason people should see what's really happening in Palestine, right.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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i'd like to think that Chief is writing from an underground bunker, eating canned tuna and peeeing in a bottle.
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philo
climber
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From Rolling Stone.
Another day, another horrible mass shooting. This one was in the small town of Roseburg, Oregon, on the Umpqua Community College campus. More than two dozen people were reportedly hit with gunfire.
SIDEBAR
Oregon School Shooting Oregon Tragedy 264th Mass Shooting of the Year »
While victims are being rushed to the hospital, many right-wing pundits and politicians are no doubt readying their talking points to explain why the 264th mass shooting of the year does not mean the United States should tighten up access to deadly firearms.
Well, guys, I hate to break it to you, but we heard you the first time. And the second time. And the hundreds of times since that our country has grappled with an individual eager to take out as many lives as possible with a firearm. We can recite your arguments in our sleep, and they haven't grown better through repetition.
1. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
This is a fantastic argument for those who can't tell the difference between one death and a dozen. Absolutely, a murderer can often kill one person or two with a knife before being stopped. But to really rack up those mind-blowing death counts – to make sure that many lives are destroyed and families ruined in the space of five or 10 minutes – you need a gun. If all you care about is apportioning blame and declaring that someone does or does not have murderous intent, then by all means, claim a knife and a gun are equivalent weapons. For those of us who are more worried about preventing unnecessary deaths than merely acknowledging the hate that resides in some people's hearts, however, the sheer amount of damage a gun can do is reason to limit who can get their hands on one.
2. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
If you prefer pithy sayings to hard evidence, I can see why this would be convincing. But if you look at the real world, you'll find that far from being our only hope, good guys with guns are barely any help at all. No mass shootings in the past 30 years have been stopped by an armed civilian; in 1982, an armed civilian successfully killed a shooter, but it was only after he committed his crime.
It's not that there aren't enough guns, either. There are as many guns as people in this country, and fully a third of people are armed. Even when shootings happen in gun-happy places, where armed people are sure to be nearby, this vigilante scenario simply doesn't work. That's because pulling a gun out and shooting back in the chaos of a mass shooting just makes things worse, as was discovered when a would-be hero at the 2011 shooting of Gabby Giffords very nearly shot the wrong man. (The actual shooter was tackled by an elderly man.)
3. "But, mental health!"
Opponents of gun control love bringing up the problem of inadequate mental health care after a shooting. This is strictly for deflection purposes, as there is no indication that Republicans will ever work on meaningful reform for our mental health systems – which, it's true are woefully inadequate. It's an issue that only matters to them in the immediate aftermath of a shooting – then it's forgotten, until there's another shooting. Rinse, repeat.
Also, the "mental health" gambit, in this context, is always vague. What exactly is the plan? Round up everyone with a mental health issue and put them under lock and key? That amounts to 1 in 5 Americans, the vast majority of whom have no violent tendencies. Will we have some kind of extensive mental health registry? A lot of Americans who struggle with mental health are undiagnosed, though, and putting them on a government list that restricts their rights is not a great inducement to get a diagnosis. There are a lot of shooters in this country, so we have some pretty good data on mass shooters. And that data shows there's no reliable way to tell who is going to go off like this, and only 23 percent of shooters have a diagnosis. Even if all of those individuals got gold-star treatment, the system would only stop a few shooters.
4. "Second Amendment, baby."
Here's a good time to remind everyone that the Second Amendment was written by slaveholders before we had electricity, much less the kind of weaponry that would-be murderers can buy today. But sure, if you think it's that precious, we can compromise: If you love the Second Amendment that much, feel free to live in a powdered wig and sh#t in a chamberpot while trying to survive off what you can kill with an 18th century musket. In exchange, let those of us living in this century pass some laws so we can feel safe going to class, or the movies, or anywhere without worrying that some maladjusted man will try to get his revenge by raining death on random strangers.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/4-pro-gun-arguments-were-sick-of-hearing-20151001#ixzz3nnmhO0pS
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
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philo
climber
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Very good post Glillegard.
The reason that mass shootings and school shootings get the coverage that daily gang shootings don't is, in my opinion, because the average American doesn't spend time in inner city crime zones but they do send their kids to schools, shopping malls and movie theaters.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"Cartridges are only reliable for maybe 10-20 years."
You sure about that?
A lot of the surplus stuff we shoot is older than my parents. And so are the guns.
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philo
climber
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OR Teacher Where Massacre Occurred Writes Lawmakers: “Our Rights to Live Without Fear of Slaughter Not Important to You”
— October 3, 2015
Melissa Duclos, a teacher from Oregon, penned an open letter lamenting how upon starting her position as a teacher, she wasn’t properly trained in the school’s emergency procedures in the event of a shooting. She closes the letter by calling upon lawmakers to stop being afraid of the pro-gun lobby and act.
Duclos explains that more guns isn’t the answer and expresses fear that lawmakers won’t care or act if her, or another person’s, child is killed in a similar tragedy that struck Umpqua Community College.
Here’s the letter in full:
Thursday, October 1 was my second day of class as a writing instructor at a community college in Oregon.
Following the shooting that occurred at Umpqua Community College on Thursday, where 10 people were killed, I realized that as a new hire, I hadn’t been fully informed on my college’s emergency protocols. What should I do in the event of what we now call, with heartbreaking regularity, an active shooter situation? According to my school’s Emergency Response Guide, I should attempt to evacuate my students if it is deemed safe to do so. My classroom is on the third floor; to evacuate we would need to descend two flights down an open staircase, and exit through a wide lobby. We would need to know with absolute certainty that the active shooter was not on the third floor, or the second, or anywhere in the lobby. In other words, evacuation, my first course of action, seems highly unlikely.
The next option, according to my college, is to lock the door. This unfortunately is not possible, as the door to my classroom can only be locked with a key, a key that I do not have and won’t ever be given. Left, then, in my third-floor classroom with its unlocked door, I am instructed to turn off the lights and lower the blinds, to use the tables to build a barricade, and get everyone out of the line of fire. I am further instructed to “arm [myself] with classroom items (e.g., stapler, chair, fire extinguisher) to fight back with in the event that the shooter attempts to enter [my] room.”
In the next paragraph, I am told what to do if that shooter does in fact enter our classroom: “There is no one procedure that can be recommended in this situation,” the manual informs me with grim honesty, before adding, “f you must fight, fight to win and survive.”
Fight to survive. I am a teacher, with a master’s degree in creative writing, and this is part of my job.
These security measures — generic, unfollowable, completely incompatible with the reality of my school — are, in their inadequate way, essential. It is not the school’s fault that heavily armed people, whether through incurable rage or mental instability, all too frequently choose academic institutions as the settings for the horror they unleash. I recognize that we do not have the resources to retrofit our facilities with safer features. I am positive that handing me — or any teacher — a gun will solve nothing. Regardless of the level of preparedness, though, it is clear that schools and teachers are being asked to do a job that they are not meant to do.
My son will start kindergarten next year. At 5 years old he and his classmates, in addition to learning reading and math, will be walked through lockdown drills by a teacher who will likely be hiding an immense terror as she has students practice finding a cozy place to hide and times how long they can remain quiet. It will probably seem like a game to him at first, but eventually my son and the rest of America’s schoolchildren who are learning the same lessons will ask why. Why have we allowed our schools to become a place where children must hide, and teachers must fight to survive?
What do you recommend I tell him? This week, when I speak to my students about what happened at Umpqua and about our own emergency procedures, what do you advise I say after I explain that the stapler and whiteboard markers — the only classroom supplies I have in my room — are critical to our survival?
I could tell them that your thoughts and prayers are with us. I could tell them we have your deepest sympathies. But I am teaching a class on argument, instructing my students on the importance of facts. So instead I will tell them the truth: They have to be prepared to hide out of the line of fire, and to fight for our survival, because you, our lawmakers, haven’t done your jobs. I will tell them that their rights, my rights, the rights of my 5-year-old, to attend school without fear of facing senseless slaughter by machine-gun fire, are not important to you, that we must be prepared to fight tooth and nail, stapler and whiteboard marker, because you refuse to fight the gun lobby in this country.
The next time you have an opportunity to sponsor or vote on common-sense gun legislation, instead of fearing the attack ads the gun lobby will undoubtedly launch against you, the lost campaign revenue, or the threat to your job, I hope that you think of me and my students, of the rest of the educators and students across the country, who have been asked to stand up to gunmen because you are too scared to stand up to a handful of lobbyists.
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philo
climber
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Kroger the only horse that is dead is the current insane misinterpretation of the 2nd Ammendment and the only ones beating it are the ammosexuals.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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the Supreme Court has upheld the individual right to bear arms
True, but they also didn't rule against gun control laws.
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Norton
Social climber
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True, but they also didn't rule against gun control laws.
actually, the recent Heller Supreme Court Decision did rule against a gun control law
when it decided that the city of DC could not pass and enforce their law outlawing
lawful citizens from owning a gun
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), was a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held in a 5-4 decision that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution applies to federal enclaves and protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. The decision did not address the question of whether the Second Amendment extends beyond federal enclaves to the states,[1] which was addressed later by McDonald v. Chicago (2010). It was the first Supreme Court case to decide whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.[2]
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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In 1939 the U.S. Supreme Court considered the matter in United States v. Miller. 307 U.S. 174. The Court adopted a collective rights approach in this case, determining that Congress could regulate a sawed-off shotgun that had moved in interstate commerce under the National Firearms Act of 1934 because the evidence did not suggest that the shotgun "has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated milita . . . ." The Court then explained that the Framers included the Second Amendment to ensure the effectiveness of the military.
Recent case law since Heller suggests that courts are willing to, for example, uphold
regulations which ban weapons on government property. US v Dorosan, 350 Fed. Appx. 874 (5th Cir. 2009) (upholding defendant’s conviction for bringing a handgun onto post office property);
regulations which ban the illegal possession of a handgun as a juvenile, convicted felon. US v Rene, 583 F.3d 8 (1st Cir. 2009) (holding that the Juvenile Delinquency Act ban of juvenile possession of handguns did not violate the Second Amendment);
regulations which require a permit to carry concealed weapon. Kachalsky v County of Westchester, 701 F.3d 81 (2nd Cir. 2012) (holding that a New York law preventing individuals from obtaining a license to possess a concealed firearm in public for general purposes unless the individual showed proper cause did not violate the Second Amendment.)
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zBrown
Ice climber
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An argument between two children over puppies turned tragic Saturday when an 11-year-old boy killed his 8-year-old neighbor with a shotgun, according to authorities in Jefferson County, Tenn.
...
Each of the children had a puppy, the sheriff said. The 11-year-old “wanted to see the 8-year-old’s, and she said no, and then he went and retrieved a gun,” McCoig said.
The boy fired the 12-gauge shotgun from inside of his house, striking the girl as she stood in her yard, according to the sheriff. The gun, which was stored in a closet without locks, belonged to the boy’s father, McCoig said.
When the offended neighbor sues the offending neighbor for wrongful death the offender's insurance, if he has any, isn't going to help him.
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philo
climber
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There is your sick and twisted gun culture in action. It's so pervasive that even kids think guns are the first choice in solving problems.
Great job Ammosexual, 2nd Ammendmeny misinterpreting bullet brained ameriKKKans.
Hey hey hey NRA how many kids did you kill today
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Hey hey hey NRA how many kids did you kill today
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philo
climber
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No sorry it's the tw#ts who say the solution to too many guns is more guns that need f*#king help.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Put "US gun policy" on the gun/triggerhappy finger and "US citizens" on the free hand and you are far closer to the truth...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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No sorry it's the tw#ts who say the solution to too many guns is more guns that need f*#king help.
Generally I just ignore you. But this ridiculousness is SO far beyond the pale that it demands a response.
Not ONE person on this thread is advocating for "more guns." Not Chief, not anybody. NOBODY is saying that "more guns" is any "solution."
A better deployment of EXISTING guns would provide a partial solution in some scenarios. You moan and snivel that we don't want to turn this nation into, say, Somalia. But to hear YOU tell it, we're already there.
At least TRY to "argue" with a SHRED of intellectual honesty.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Not sure why I bother talking to you guys, but as a gun owner, I'd be really stoked to see tighter regulations on magazine size, and background checks that include mental health screening before any firearm purchase. Semi autos with a large capacity are really fun to shoot, but not needed. Screw LaPierre and his ilk, they are profiting on fear mongering and the blood of many people is on their hands.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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From the link posted by Nita above:
In 1996, a mass shooting in an Australian picnic area became a catalyst for the enactment of sweeping gun laws in the country.
These laws include a mandatory national buyback of guns, as well as restrictions on semi-automatics and a 28-day waiting period to get a license to own a gun.
The Australian deputy prime minister at the time, Tim Fischer, helped pass the gun control laws.
Fischer, a gun owner himself, tells Here & Now’s Jeremy Hobson the Australian laws show a country “can have a sensible policy on guns and reduce the number of people being killed by guns and the gun massacres.”
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John M
climber
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Not ONE person on this thread is advocating for "more guns." Not Chief, not anybody. NOBODY is saying that "more guns" is any "solution."
weren't you arguing for armed guards in every school. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but wouldn't that mean more guns..
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Owning guns makes up for my lack of testosterone as I age.
Why do libtards hate old people?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Nice post Brandon.
This thread is a good example of why gun control is needed.
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philo
climber
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Brandon that is one of the best most reasonable posts.
Thank you madbolter but it's been pointed out time after time that philo is never going to put forth intellectual thoughts. That is pretty funny.
Know that those of us who actually see the issues ignore morons like philo and continue to address the issues with carefully thought out solutions and not left wing propaganda talking points that are meant to distract you with vitriolic bs instead of rational solutions.
OK so where is your careful thoughts on solutions?
giving up my rights to arms is not on the table. What if new regulations deem you legally unfit for gun ownership?
Philo can give his up all he wants that's the nwo he seeks Quite an ignorant assumption. What else ya got in her brain trust?
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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But the only thing that would actually work is, ironically, what the right-wing crazies most fear, which is a variant of"confiscation" -- like what Australia did. That will never happen.
It will happen. The NRA leaves us no choice.
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dirtbag
climber
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I read or heard something recently that explained the basic political dilemma.
A very passionate minority generally opposes changes.
A mostly (but not entirely) passive majority favors change.
On almost any issue, guns included, the passionate minority wins.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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weren't you arguing for armed guards in every school. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but wouldn't that mean more guns.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's OBVIOUS that this doesn't mean "more guns." The soldiers I mentioned already HAVE guns. They don't need MORE of them, and there would not be MORE soldiers.
We are talking about deploying EXISTING personnel already possessing EXISTING guns.
This sort of thing already works in many inner-city schools. I mentioned two of them in Riverside and San Bernardino. Students are not perpetually "freaked out" by the existence of roaming, armed guards. In fact, with the incidence of violence WAY down since these schools installed metal detectors and armed guards, the students can (finally) actually settle down and concentrate on their studies.
No MORE guns... just a more intelligent deployment of EXISTING guns.
If you're gonna wring your hands about "keeping the kids safe," then KEEP them safe... the same way that VIPs (supposedly, that's what our kids are) are kept safe all over the world (including in Canada!).
No laws would not accomplish ANYTHING to keep the kids safe. But some roaming, armed guards would. And schools all over this country have already started to tumble to that FACT.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Philo needs help.
I mean, seriously. People, if any of you know this guy personally, reach out and help him and get him help. I mean it. To my mind, there's no surprise if there ends up being blood on your hands if you don't.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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It will happen. The NRA leaves us no choice.
OK I'm finally unable to resist. Until one deals with the Second Amendment, the discussion that "we should be like the United Kingdom and Australia" is useless. The founders designed the United States Constitution to insure that we would not be like the United Kingdom. Amending the Constitution takes a consensus I don't see happening any time soon. "Amending" the Supreme Court seems more likely, although the intellectual dishonesty required to read the Second Amendment to allow confiscation (or, more euphemistically, madatory repurchase) of firearms may make even a few of the more liberal SCOTUS justices pause. OK. When it comes to members of the SCOTUS feeling intellectual restraint, I kid. I kid.
Still, the Second Amendment forms a much more formidable barrier than most of the proposals I see here acknowledge.
Interestingly, peoples' unaided hands or feet are the instruments of death in more than twice the number of homicides involving rifles of any form. The hysteria on banning "assault rifles" therefore seems to miss the target (so to speak) by miles. The societal resources we would need to remove assault rifles from criminal - or even law-abiding - hands aren't trivial. Are they worth it, when we consider other possible uses of those resources to secure the well-being of society?
More fundamentally, I think we're wasting a lot of time looking for perfect, but impossible solutions, rather than looking at possible improvements. Since no one on this thread has expressed an opinion that our current weapons laws are optimal, what would you change that might actually have enough political juice to become law within, say, the next two years?
John
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philo
climber
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Oct 6, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
Philo needs help.
I mean, seriously. People, if any of you know this guy personally, reach out and help him and get him help. I mean it. To my mind, there's no surprise if there ends up being blood on your hands if you don't.
Seriously what an ignorant thing to say. Almost as ignorant as putting soldiers into school classrooms. I don't know who you think you are madbolt but you don't have the credibility to make such an asinine statement. And it's only because you don't like my point of view that isn't in line with yours. So you make specious and absurd attacks. Grow up.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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OK I'm finally unable to resist.
Don't fight it, John. Come to the Dark Side.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And it's only because you don't like my point of view that isn't in line with yours.
No, there are MANY here with whom I disagree. But YOU on many threads have exhibited some very disturbing personality issues that many others besides just me have commented on, and I am frankly disturbed by it.
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Norton
Social climber
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More fundamentally, I think we're wasting a lot of time looking for perfect, but impossible solutions, rather than looking at possible improvements. Since no one on this thread has expressed an opinion that our current weapons laws are optimal, what would you change that might actually have enough political juice to become law within, say, the next two years?
John
agree
and John, as far as your question - no law can possibly pass in the next two years
however, maybe at some future time, a law that expands background checks could pass
there is one side of this discussion that repeatedly takes the position that since laws are so easily ignored that therefore any new laws are then by assumption also useless to pass
following that reasoning, child seatbelt laws are useless because they can be ignored,
and so are traffic signals, corporate and consumer safety, food and drug laws, etc
can someone point out anything wrong with this logic?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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traffic signals, corporate and consumer safety, food and drug laws, etc
can someone point out anything wrong with this logic?
It's not a logic problem, but there is a practical difference between the examples you cite and the problem of active-shooters....
The examples you cite are "prophylactic" laws designed to constrain behavior that would not necessarily be harmful in itself. Most cases of running a red light do not result in an accident. Still, it's better for us to "agree" to flow our traffic in orderly fashion.
But contrast, existing laws already in place specifically preclude murder (as if people need a LAW to know that!) and other weapons violations that these mass-murderers routinely violate. A person determined to violate THAT law doesn't give a RIP about however large a pile of other laws he must violate to do it. NO mass-murderer is going to think, "Gee, I'd better think my tactics through again. That 10-round magazine limit is a real hindrance to the rate of fire I'm gonna need."
A better comparison to your examples would be having a pile of NEW "prophylactic" traffic laws like these:
Do not run red lights TO attack pedestrians with your car.
Do not speed TO catch up to pedestrians and run them over with your car.
Do not un-seat-belt your child TO throw him out of the window of a speeding car.
And so on.
And, as John rightly pointed out, rifles are not ANY problem at all, so laws against "assault rifles" are BEYOND inane and unmotivated!
In short, new gun laws are nailing shut, barring, padlocking, and putting armed guards around barn doors that are ALREADY closed and the horses escaped out to another country. Adding yet more padlocks to THOSE doors isn't solving anything, while these perps are willing to violate ALL laws, including NO MURDER! Meanwhile, the 99.9999% of gun-carriers already abide by the existing laws, and new ones will not make THEM any "better."
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Since no one on this thread has expressed an opinion that our current weapons laws are optimal, what would you change that might actually have enough political juice to become law within, say, the next two years?
John Here's what the next president proposes, for starters....
A central issue in Mrs. Clinton’s proposals are the background checks on prospective gun buyers, which are required for retailers at stores. But under federal law, they are not required at gun shows or over the Internet with private sellers.
Under Mrs. Clinton’s plan, she would use administrative powers to make anyone selling a substantial number of guns declared “in the business” of firearms dealing, and subject to the same rules as retailers, if Congress does not act, according to the campaign aide.
It was not immediately clear what the bar for being declared “in the business” would be. And use of executive action in connection with guns is certain to face criticism from staunch supporters of the Second Amendment. It is also likely to be applauded by Democrats who have grown weary of gridlock in Congress.
Earlier in the evening, another Democratic candidate, Martin O’Malley, urged Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders to embrace policies he supports, including a reinstatement of the lapsed federal assault weapons ban. That does not appear to be among those she will suggest.
Mrs. Clinton will suggest urging Congress to end another loophole, by which people with felony records who should be barred from obtaining a gun can get one if their background check is not completed within three days. That loophole was how Dylann Roof, the accused killer in Charleston, obtained his weapon despite a felony conviction for a drug arrest.
Since the Charleston shooting, Mrs. Clinton has frequently talked about gun control, but her comments have grown stronger. On Friday, a day after the shootings in Oregon, Mrs. Clinton said she wanted to lead a “national movement” that would counter the National Rifle Association.
“Here’s what the other side counts on,” Mrs. Clinton said. “They count on really having an intense, dedicated group that scare politicians and say, ‘We will vote against you.’ ”e
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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All the pro gun people share the idea that there are already to many gun laws. Why aren't all of us, including the NRA, getting up in governments face and telling them we want current gun laws fully and strictly enforced.
Being a gun owner I've said this in the past, if we don't start getting a handle on this, someone else will.
The tides are turning.
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Norton
Social climber
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Mrs. Clinton will suggest urging Congress to end another loophole, by which people with felony records who should be barred from obtaining a gun can get one if their background check is not completed within three days. That loophole was how Dylann Roof, the accused killer in Charleston, obtained his weapon despite a felony conviction for a drug arrest.
surely this suggestion of Mrs. Clinton's is something we can all agree on....right?
wait for it ..............
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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this suggestion of Mrs. Clinton's is something we can all agree on....right?
Should there be ANY time limit on government incompetency?
I mean, three days is a reasonable period. If the government can't get the background check done in that time, HOW long should a purchaser have to wait? 10 days? 30? 100?
It was not a LOOPHOLE that caused that problem. It was government incompetency, and the government should NOT have unlimited time in which to be incompetent.
So, there IS going to be SOME time period beyond which the sale goes through if the government can't get its job done in timely fashion. But now we're right back where we started and are left to dicker over whether it should be 3 days or 200.
3 days is plenty IF the government is doing its job. "Closing the loophole" just IS a function of ensuring that government DO what it said it WANTED to do! LOL
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Why aren't all of us, including the NRA, getting up in governments face and telling them we want current gun laws fully and strictly enforced.
You do realize that the NRA isn't simply failing to do this, it actively lobbies against increased funding, investigation and enforcement of current gun laws?
Ask yourself, are they trying to protect people or sell more guns?
TE
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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You do realize that the NRA isn't simply failing to do this, it actively lobbies against increased funding, investigation and enforcement of current gun laws?
You are flat out lying about that, (or just repeating the lies your echo chamber repeats)
The NRA has always been strong on prosecuting criminals with gun violations. The prog politicians are the ones that plea bargain them down and encourage catch and release.
There's a reason for the high number of LEO/NRA membership.
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John M
climber
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Interestingly, peoples' unaided hands or feet are the instruments of death in more than twice the number of homicides involving rifles of any form. The hysteria on banning "assault rifles" therefore seems to miss the target (so to speak) by miles.
the target is also mass shootings, not just all shootings, which semi auto rifles with large clips make much more possible for someone who is untrained.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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It's not a logic problem, but there is a practical difference between the examples you cite and the problem of active-shooters....
The only difference is that you are a gun-nut.
Since murder and assault are already illegal, why do we need the FDA to regulate drug or food safety? Just wait for dead or sick consumers and bring the guilty companies to court?
Since murder and assault are already illegal, why do we need the EPA to prohibiting businesses from sending toxins downwind or downstream? My widow can just sue when I get cancer?
Since murder and assault are already illegal, why do we need speed limits, traffic lights, DUI laws?
Since murder and assault are already illegal, why do we need building codes to ensure our houses don't fall down or catch fire too fast?
If stricter guns laws don't deter criminals from getting guns, how come so few fully automatic weapons are used to commit crimes?
TE
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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philo
climber
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Oct 6, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
Philo needs help.
I mean, seriously. People, if any of you know this guy personally, reach out and help him and get him help. I mean it. To my mind, there's no surprise if there ends up being blood on your hands if you don't.
Oct 6, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
... there are MANY here with whom I disagree. But YOU on many threads have exhibited some very disturbing personality issues that many others besides just me have commented on, and I am frankly disturbed by it.
Disturbed enough that I should worry about you getting my blood on your hands? Because that could be interpreted as a threat. Otherwise who's blood and who's hands are you referring to?
How "disturbed" are you?
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Norton
Social climber
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you are painfully ignorant
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philo
climber
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Domenico Montanaro - 2015
DOMENICO
Gun Politics Have Changed, Mostly Among Republicans
It's hard to deny that the NRA has won the gun debate over the past 20 years.
Despite mass shootings — and despite some 80 to 90 percent of Americans saying they are in favor of background checks — no legislation expanding on the 1993 Brady Bill has passed Congress.
What's going on? Well, the debate over guns is hardly ever solely about background checks or other seemingly popular measures intended to curb gun violence.
Instead, the heart of the debate has more to do with the bigger-picture argument of what's more important — controlling gun ownership or protecting gun rights.
The pendulum has shifted pretty dramatically since 1993 in the direction of protecting gun rights, according to survey data from the Pew Research Center.
In 1993, a strong majority (57 percent) said they thought controlling gun ownership was more important while about a third (34 percent) said gun rights were.
By last year, the majority had flipped in favor of gun rights. This year, it's ticked slightly back toward controlling gun ownership, but Americans are split almost evenly on the question.
But here's what's really fascinating — while Democrats have ticked up slightly more in favor of controlling gun ownership and independents have slid a bit more in favor of gun rights, the biggest shift — by far — has been with Republicans.
Back in 1993, more Republicans said they thought controlling guns was most important by a 47 to 45 percent margin. Now, by a 71 to 26 percent margin, Republicans say protecting the rights of gun owners is more important.
This is significant, because as Democratic candidates press for more gun regulation, it's Republicans who control Congress. And when Democrats' supporters look up and wonder why nothing is done in Congress, the public-opinion shift makes it very clear.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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If stricter guns laws don't deter criminals from getting guns, how come so few fully automatic weapons are used to commit crimes?
Your latest post was almost incoherent, but this one line I can quickly respond to. As I have posted before, when I was in gangland, I could lay my hands on ANYTHING I wanted, from grenades to Laos Rockets to fully automatic weapons of my choice. Most criminals don't have them because they are relatively expensive and unnecessary to the street-thuggary most engage in. Why spend $800 for a full-auto rifle when a $30 junker-pistol can be more easily carried and fully intimidates a store clerk?
Regarding the rest, it's simple: If I run a red light, MOST likely no harm will come of violating that law. If I violate the law against murder, 100% of the time I have committed murder.
Edit: And, if I've committed myself to a murder, the ancillary violations of a pack of gun-control laws isn't even a blip on my radar!
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philo
climber
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Cool, can ya get me a flame thrower and a bazooka?
Oh and throw in some claymores, some C4 and a pack of Slim Jims.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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What the hell would you do with that sh#t, Philo?
Seriously.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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There should be a law against Slim Jims. Those things really do kill.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Regarding the rest, it's simple: If I run a red light, MOST likely no harm will come of violating that law. If I violate the law against murder, 100% of the time I have committed murder.
Sure, but in the case of guns, your argument is that since red lights don't prevent every single accident and won't have any effect at all on accidents that aren't at intersections, all they do is slow down law-abiding citizens, so we shouldn't have red lights at all, and certainly shouldn't put up any new ones at intersections that have become more dangerous.
TE
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Do all crank loons drool and are they all idiots...?
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philo
climber
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I don't know RJ do you need help securing your bib?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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I just figured out the duck is one of those computerized noun-adverb-verb random word generators.
Somebody needs to add some nouns besides crankloon.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sure, but in the case of guns, your argument is that since red lights don't prevent every single accident and won't have any effect at all on accidents that aren't at intersections, all they do is slow down law-abiding citizens, so we shouldn't have red lights at all, and certainly shouldn't put up any new ones at intersections that have become more dangerous.
That's not my argument at all.
First, I would never argue that the goal of red-light laws is to prevent every single accident (or even many/most of them)!
Second, my argument really concerns the law's intent relative to the outcome of violating it, which addresses the possible value of ancillary laws surrounding it.
Red-light laws are NOT intended to prevent every single accident. In FACT, if people would UNIVERSALLY agree to abide by intersection lights, NO law supporting such lights would be needed, as no penalty would ever be imposed. In the real world, however, people give a nod at the purpose of intersection lights and then do whatever is convenient. Hence the need of a law and a penalty for violation.
Red lights (and their supporting laws) are actually intended to provide a means by which to equitably distribute traffic flow among competing participants at intersections. Accidents are a SIDE-effect of violating that law, not THE thing the law is intended to prevent. And, accidents are a quite infrequent effect of violation, relative to the number of actual violations.
Furthermore, there is no underlying moral principle I'm violating to run a red light. Only if there's a law in place am I violating a moral obligation to obey the laws issued by a legitimate authority operating within its scope of authority.
For all these reasons (and more), there is no parity between traffic laws (and others you mentioned) and murder (by gun or other means).
When you pass an additional law surrounding red-light laws, such as, for instance, that one must slow to no more than half the posted speed when approaching a yellow light instead of trying to run it (just an example of an ancillary law one might pass), I might violate one or both laws. But now, BOTH laws have an effect on my thinking and perhaps behavior.
With murder, however, particularly mass-murder, I've already committed myself to a beyond-the-pale act. I've removed myself from ALL "legal" thinking. I then care ONLY about strategy and tactics, NOT laws and ancillary laws. This is NOT a case of "the law doesn't stop all murderers, so no point in having a law against murder." The law is intended to DEFINE what MURDER IS and to explicitly prohibit it. And if commit myself to violating THAT law, I have utterly placed myself "above" the law. NO ancillary laws have any effect on my thinking.
I'm NOT arguing that "they'll have no effect, so they should not be passed." I have REPEATEDLY said that I have no problem with a universal background check law (that does NOT allow a registry database), even THOUGH I believe that it will be essentially useless.
What I AM arguing is that USING tragic incidents like this latest one to ARGUE FOR the passage of such laws is entirely unmotivated and unsustainable, as the passage of such laws will NECESSARILY have exactly zero effect on a person that has decided to commit mass murder. So, a mass murder incident has NO relevancy to the passage of such laws.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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"Zero effect". You say that with certainty and authority. But you really don't know, correct? You can't.
You seem to be arguing that the lack of guns makes a person/community LESS safe from gun violence. I think that's weird.
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philo
climber
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Actually Crank what I think many of the gun huggers are saying there is so many guns already that everybody shod arm up to be safe. It's lunacy but they believe it. And it makes them so petulantlyangry that they can't see straight.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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With murder, however, particularly mass-murder, I've already committed myself to a beyond-the-pale act. I've removed myself from ALL "legal" thinking. I then care ONLY about strategy and tactics, NOT laws and ancillary laws.
Exactly! Which is why all civilian weapons must be seized and destroyed.
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Norton
Social climber
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well.....
one learns in high school to internet post in a very authoritarian manner
with supreme arrogance and certainty while being only vaguely condescending
that way the elusion of credibility is maintained
most everyone else politely knows this and lets the children think they said something.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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But you really don't know, correct? You can't.
I don't know that I have HANDS with any "certainty." However, I am pretty confident that I do.
I am also VERY confident that these mass murderers are NOT contemplating gun laws as they plan out their deeds. And we have a pretty huge slate of empirical evidence amassed at this point to indicate that these guys are getting their guns via channels that NO proposed legislation will address, not even the Hillabeast's recently announced "plan."
Thus, yes, I am pretty confident that NO proposed gun laws are relevant to these tragic incidents and cannot be justified BY them.
If you want more gun laws, feel free to do your best to get them passed. I might even support some of 'em. But NONE of them will even touch, much less solve, incidents like this latest one.
To do THAT, you have to take seriously protecting the kids ON SITE in real time!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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the crank loon-anti-gun idiots are blinded by the drool dripping from the zionist mouth-breathing , Hillary supporters...stupid mis-informed Americans...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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orale
We don't need no stinkin' gunz, just a vat of acid.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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But NONE of them will even touch, much less solve, incidents like this latest one.
Exactly right. We need to go Australian on guns.
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philo
climber
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So Madbolt you'd propose nothing be done to address the issue other than militarizing school campuses like prison camps.
Brave new world indeed.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sure, but in the case of guns, your argument is that since red lights don't prevent every single accident...
Interestingly, when I was in Egypt a few years back, drivers completely ignored the traffic signals- total chaos & anarchy. But a closer look revealed the cars had no dents or scratches; they incessantly blow their horns reminiscent of bat echolocation.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Sigh
madbolter is a true gun-lover & he is sincere, long-winded, & his posts are mostly unread, TGT likes posting cartoons to explain his supposedly intellectual conservative stance, & Werner is just a weird duck.
And of course Das Chief is possessed by his own evil right-wing demons that force him to post until his keyboard starts to smoke.
I love my guns, but then again, I actually kill pests on our ranchette with them.
I do advocate mental-health checks for new gun owners, mandatory gun training, & of course, a waiting period before gun purchase.
I do not advocate continuing to sell assault-rifles, since no experienced & serious (sane) hunter wants to shoot the schit out of the game they are going to eat.
I grew up meat-hunting in central Idaho, with the mark of a good hunter, being a single head or heart shot to kill big game.
For the last 30 years I have worked as a outdoor sales-representative selling camping, backpacking, river-running, & survival gear to outdoor stores. I have worked with a bunch of conservative, survivalist retailers. Despite my comfort with guns and shooting, those folks scare me.
Some of those folks want revolution. Some of them will never be happy with our current political system, but they would rather shoot than vote. Some of them need to go to jail.
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John M
climber
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good post Fritz..
thanks for the sanity
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Some of them will never be happy with our current political system, but they would rather shoot than vote.
The whole gun thing aside, there are people like that in every political system. It doesn't matter whether the overarching political structure of a country is liberal, conservative, capitalist, communist, theocracy, oligarchy, or "You must do whatever your Rice Krispies tell you to do", there will be people who want to overthrow it. Preferably with violence.
For me, the best thing to do about guns is keep them out of the hands of crazies. To some extent, that means working to help the crazies, but it also means that non-crazy people who want the right to own firearms should be willing to accept that not everyone should have access to guns.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Fritz, that's a really good post.
Meanwhile, this is what one of the leading Republican presidential candidates, Ben Carson, said today:
As a doctor, I spent many a night pulling bullets out of bodies," he wrote on Facebook.. "There is no doubt that this senseless violence is breathtaking – but I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away. Serious people seek serious solutions.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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From the mouths and key boards of babes,
Fritz your hot want climb tomorrow ?
I'm in small rock hell. So short that this dwarf can't get high,.
True genius shows it self in these political threads, but I never open them .
This was a mistake that really was the best thing I've miss clicked today.
Now if I could just remember what it was that Donlni was all on about? . . . .
.Life coaches or strippers or were they one and the same ?
What are his ankles made of? Carbon fiber, and Kevlar ?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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reminiscent of bat echolocation
Now THAT was funny!
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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. To some extent, that means working to help the crazies, but it also means that non-crazy people who want the right to own firearms should be willing to accept that not everyone should have access to guns.
Exactly.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Rather than edit my previous post, let me explain that assault rifles are designed to kill humans, and the only reason to own one, is if you intend to kill humans with it.
Here's my previous post.
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
Sigh
madbolter is a true gun-lover & he is sincere, long-winded, & his posts are mostly unread, TGT likes posting cartoons to explain his supposedly intellectual conservative stance, & Werner is just a weird duck.
And of course Das Chief is possessed by his own evil right-wing demons that force him to post until his keyboard starts to smoke.
I love my guns, but then again, I actually kill pests on our ranchette with them.
I do advocate mental-health checks for new gun owners, mandatory gun training, & of course, a waiting period before gun purchase.
I do not advocate continuing to sell assault-rifles, since no experienced & serious (sane) hunter wants to shoot the schit out of the game they are going to eat.
I grew up meat-hunting in central Idaho, with the mark of a good hunter, being a single head or heart shot to kill big game.
For the last 30 years I have worked as a outdoor sales-representative selling camping, backpacking, river-running, & survival gear to outdoor stores. I have worked with a bunch of conservative, survivalist retailers. Despite my comfort with guns and shooting, those folks scare me.
Some of those folks want revolution. Some of them will never be happy with our current political system, but they would rather shoot than vote. Some of them need to go to jail.
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overwatch
climber
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they don't need to go to jail until they commit a crime
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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overwatch! Re your post: they don't need to go to jail until they commit a crime
Thank you for agreeing with me!
The common crimes that the extreme right-wing commit are:
Tax-evasion, illegal firearms possesion, & illegal use of federal lands.
Those are the easily documented illegal acts. Go ahead and quibble about details, but I have worked with some of those folks for many years, and they wish to destroy the United States that we know & love.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Chief, the sociopathic comments you bring to this thread could indicate your lack of mental fitness to purchase guns...
... now, as you are likely not the crazy guy you are pretending to be here, would you really want your record of comments here to represent you?
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Degaine
climber
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The Chief wrote:
Hey Gary Schenk & Wilbeer....
Here's what YOUR candidate Bernie Sanders has supported in his home state for over two decades.... shssssssssssssssssssssssssssh! I don't think Bernie really and truly has the same ideas on GUN CONTROL as you do.
Do you only vote for candidates with whom you agree on 100% of the issues?
I certainly don't, and in all the elections I've voted in as well as for all of the history I've studied, I can't identify one single candidate or elected official among thousands where I agreed with their stance on every single issue.
On the flip side, I'd honestly have to write that I did not disagree 100% with candidates that I did not vote for (meaning on certain issues I share the same point of view - aka I agree with them).
I vote for candidates who are both best aligned with those issues I consider to be the most important and who I feel will best govern.
Your post implies that Gary and Wilb are hypocrites since they don't see eye to eye with Bernie Sanders on gun control. A bit ridiculous, don't you think?
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philo
climber
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Why do you find it necessary to be insulting?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Das Chuf!
Per your last indignant post about me:
And I love how Fritz comes on here time and time again to lecture ANYONE that defends the 2nd Amendment on how terrible the current situation is in America, after making a career of ....
Selling GUNS and accessories that make their effectiveness that much better.
I regret to inform you that your reading comprehension continues at a 3rd grade level. Outdoor gear only equates to guns & shooting accessories in your strange right-wing mind.
Try not to accidently hit another deer on your drive today. Oh! There are no accidents, according to you. So why did you choose to kill that deer with your car?
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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DEFEND your FREEDOM to talk tons of dogshet and act like a complete idiot, consistently.
sure.
yawn.
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Norton
Social climber
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Why do you find it necessary to be insulting?
well think about it
how else to get others to reply back so you can continue to dominate every thread
it's all about ME, can't you see that yet?
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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locker, you're gonna die!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I sleep soundly at night
Excellent! That, after all, should be the firm foundation of national policy.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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As I see it, the biggest hurdle to passing significant gun laws is guaranteeing the NRA and gun owners that those laws/changes are not merely the first steps in an effort to take away all guns.
Changes I would support include background checks on all purchases, even between family members... register all guns.... and ban semi-automatic weapons.
Changes I might support include licensing for gun ownership and requiring guns to be safely stored.
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Norton
Social climber
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The biggest hurdle to passing Mr Thompson's very well suggested legislation is to replace Republicans with Democrats in congress, Fact.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Thanks for the acknowledgements.
I believe these changes could occur if the new laws assured the NRA et. al. that they were long term... that they weren't just the first step towards taking all guns.
The NRA's inflexible positions are absurd. I'd guess most gun owners don't fully support their hard-line stances. Looking at the anti-tobacco gains from the 70s to the 90s, it's understandable why the NRA won't budge. Slippery slope and all.
To those who think my changes are reasonable, would you agree to grandfathering these changes, so that gun owners would not face further regulations, for the guns they own at the time these changes are enacted?
Or at least guarantee no additional requirements for a set period, like 20 years.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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To those who think my changes are reasonable, would you agree to grandfathering these changes, so that gun owners would not face further regulations, for the guns they own at the time these changes are enacted?
Or at least guarantee no additional requirements for a set period, like 20 years.
Yup, although my only semi's are an 1100 and a mini-14, neither of which I need anymore. I have a bolt action rifle(.270) that is a better round for large animals if I get the itch and I prefer my double-barrel any day over a heavy 1100. I understand I am biased and don't view them as artillery as some might in this country, I am aware my stance is fairly 'easy' for me to take. The guarantee might be a hella high hurdle for some to make. BTW, good idea, it is one of the cleaner/simpler shots I have read/heard.
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dirtbag
climber
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Edward, I'm not sure the grandfathering proposal would work.
Knowing which guns would be grandfathered would require an initial registering and tracking system similar to what you propose.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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register all guns.... and ban semi-automatic weapons.
See, the problem is NOT that "gun nuts" (like me, apparently) are not willing to be flexible. I could support any number of additional gun-control laws, useless though they be. The problem is that you are not careful in your verbiage.
For example, you could not POSSIBLY have actually meant "semi-automatic weapons," as almost ALL handguns today are semi-auto. So, you CANNOT actually think that a BAN on almost all handguns is a "reasonable" approach to "gun control," as it is not reasonable to think that you are going to get a BAN on almost all handguns!
What I think you meant was "automatic weapons." And I could be brought to support such a ban as a compromise position, even though I don't AGREE with it. But when you are sloppy with verbiage, you make what is already a highly contentious subject almost intractable!
And you guys are NEVER going to get "registration" passed. Period. So, just give that up in favor of other things that might actually get passed. I would guesstimate that less than 1% of gun-owners would favor a registration system. We DO fear governmental confiscation, and we will NOT submit to telling the feds about our guns. That is a STATE-level matter, and we can vote with our money and our feet at the State level. So, please, just give up on the idea of some sort of national gun registry. Ain't gonna happen, and can't in principle be enforced.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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So, you CANNOT actually think that a BAN on almost all handguns is a "reasonable" approach to "gun control," as it is not reasonable to think that you are going to get a BAN on almost all handguns!
I think that would be a very reasonable approach to gun control. Until the time we can beat them all into plowshares.
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John M
climber
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ban all semi automatic rifles.
Or at the very least design them to only fit a 3 round magazine. And make it a major major crime to own/sell/trade larger magazines.
I'm not as concerned about handguns as it takes a lot more training to be effective with one against many.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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More people are murdered with bare hands than by semi auto rifles every year.
Of course the symbolism of banning something scary looking is more important than reality.
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John M
climber
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TGT.. you are one tiresome human being..
I'm trying to help put a stop to mass shootings. Semi auto rifles with large magazines are one of the easiest weapons to acquire and use for that purpose.
I'm not afraid of them. I recognize their power. There are very very few cases where a hunter should need more then 3 shots. If he/she does, then perhaps that person shouldn't be hunting. In the days of the indian tribes, a hunter was prized for not wasting an arrow, which took a special skill to make and extra work. So poor hunters couldn't sometimes even trade with the good arrow makers, because the arrow maker wanted to be paid with meat. Not with.. sorry, I missed. But hey.. just spray them down, that should work. In q-balls case, he could get a permit or a licensed exterminator could come out.
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John M
climber
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The problem with gun control is most people don't want the truth, they just want their opinion.
this is your pet opinion.
I love the truth, but human lives are more then just statistics. What you are telling the parents of the kids in Oregon is that you don't want change because their kids aren't a valuable enough statistic. I love my guns more then your kids is what you say by your actions.
edit:
…
Of course the symbolism of banning something scary looking is more important than reality.
The problem with gun control is most people don't want the truth, they just want their opinion.
Both of the above quotes are insults meant to belittle a persons opinion so that they don't have to face what is being said.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Never is such a ridiculous contention...
Well, it IS impossible to prove a negative existential claim, so, technically, you are correct.
But the death toll would have to be astoundingly high, higher than I think you realize, to get something like that seriously on the table. Furthermore, there is zero established causal connection between "unregistered" guns and gun-related homicides. So, you'd also have to ESTABLISH that connection first. Good luck with that.
So, I'll again assert: Never.
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Norton
Social climber
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Here's a poll showing 43% of gun owners favor a national gun registry.
damn! that is a far larger number than I would have assumed
thanks for posting that fact, Mr. Thompson
The problem with gun control is most people don't want the truth, they just want their opinion.
agree
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philo
climber
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History is rife and resplendent with Nevers that never lasted. If the sh#t really hits the fan are you and your pop guns going to stand down an Abrams, an Apache or a Warthog? How realistic is that? The transition away from a gun crazed culture need not be violent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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damn! that is a far larger number than I would have assumed
AGREED!
I stand corrected. Well, at least by one, single poll.
Law or no law, I'll never register my guns. There's a "never" I actually have control over. ;-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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you and your pop guns going to stand down an Abrams, an Apache or a Warthog?
It's never worked that way. Guerrilla warfare (which is often extremely effective) has never been about the sort of confrontations you perpetually (and falsely) throw out.
If even a tenth of our population seriously decided to start engaging in modern resistance warfare, you're looking at a convulsion in this nation that would make the civil war look lame and tame by comparison. And, having talked to many active-duty military people, my best guess is that you would not get the military support for the liberal policies that you think you would.
These military people are not stupid, nor are they mindless grunts that will just fire on Americans because they are ordered to.
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John M
climber
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"this is your pet opinion."
I have provided numerous references so anyone can read for themselves what I am quoting and how I draw my "Opinions".
The problem with gun control is most people don't want the truth, they just want their opinion.
This is the statement that I was calling your pet opinion. I quoted it, thats what I was referring to.
Edit.. I stated earlier I am interested in slowing down mass murder. I have no idea how to stop individuals from murdering each other, at least one that most people could understand. So the only thing that I can work on is trying to slow down mass shootings of kids by kids. Limiting their access to such weapons seems reasonable to me.
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Norton
Social climber
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Law or no law, I'll never register my guns. There's a "never" I actually have control over. ;-)
no one cares what you think other than you
I have a Concealed Carry Permit, carry 24/7, if the people that Americans elect to represent them them in the Senate, House, and Presidency pass a registration law I would respect it
and register my guns, I have absolutely nothing to fear by doing so, and I assume right now that it would take one hell of a compelling narrative backed by reputable studies to convince congress to pass such a law, very unlikely
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zBrown
Ice climber
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"I would ask everybody to attack the gunman because he can only shoot one of us at a time. That way, we don't all wind up dead," he told ABC News while chuckling on Tuesday.
It's good "Uncle" Ben has retired from operating on people. He has lost his wits.
One of the gun experts here can tell just how many shots can be gotten off in say 5 seconds.
What if there are two gunmen? Do the victims form up two platoons and attack both.
What if there are three? Four?
What if the intended victims are elementary school aged children?
The New York Times took the time to compile this.
"Gun Control Explained"
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/07/us/gun-control-explained.html?_r=0
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dirtbag
climber
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He will never be President.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Dr. Carson is a raging lunatic. He acts like he mainlines horse tranquilizer before breakfast. He needs to look for work in another field other than government.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Jim Brennan for the KO!
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Norton
Social climber
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What if the intended victims are elementary school aged children?
according to Republican Presidential candidate Carson the 6 year olds should have made the decision to rush the shooter and take him out before he killed the 5 year olds
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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no one cares what you think other than you
Apparently you do, because you posted to argue against me.
Personally, I will not stand for an unconstitutional law, and the very fact that this "progressive" society falls all over itself to more and more violate every founding principle does not put upon me a duty to abide by the tyranny of majority faction.
If YOU are good with it, then good for you. I'm not, and I'll have nothing to do with it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Just curious: are you part of a well regulated militia?
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jstan
climber
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according to Republican Presidential candidate Carson the 6 year olds should have made the decision to rush the shooter and take him out before he killed the 5 year olds
I swear. That is what we have come down to.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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dirtbag
climber
Oct 7, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
He will never be President.
Careful.
A lot of people said that about GWB, and yet the stupidest man in history got elected.
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Norton
Social climber
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no one cares what you think other than you
Apparently you do, because you posted to argue against me.
no, Madbolter
I did not "argue against you"
I did however express a viewpoint different from yours but that is NOT an "argument" as there was nothing combative and no effort made to change your mind, etc
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Just curious: are you part of a well regulated militia?
Just curious: Do you have any idea what an "inalienable right" is or what the founders that wrote that amendment meant by it?
Oh, I know, you're not an "originalist," so who gives a crap what the founders meant by the amendment? We're in the brave new world in which we can reinterpret it to me whatever WE want it to mean.
Do what you will with it, but you change nothing about the inalienable right it RECOGNIZES and does NOT grant.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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you have any idea what an "inalienable right" is or what the founders that wrote that amendment meant by it?
Just curious..
Did you know the Declaration of Independence actually says unalienable rights?
Do you have any idea which ones were enumerated in the Declaration of Independence?
There aren't any in the Constitution. Neither word appears in the document.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Oh, I know, you're not an "originalist," so who gives a crap what the founders meant by the amendment? We're in the brave new world in which we can reinterpret it to me whatever WE want it to mean.
The Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, made the Constitution a malleable document. It's designed for change. And a good thing, too.
But it's funny that people who claim to be fundamentalists about the Constitution keep ignoring that pesky "well-regulated" part of the Second Amendment. Some serious rationalizing goes on over that.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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The Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, made the Constitution a malleable document. It's designed for change. And a good thing, too.
But it's funny that people who claim to be fundamentalists about the Constitution keep ignoring that pesky "well-regulated" part of the Second Amendment. Some serious rationalizing goes on over that.
I'm a strict constructionist. I believe we should follow what the founders wrote about.
So everybody turn in your semi automatic weapons and we will re-issue single shot black powder muskets.
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jstan
climber
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The work we did on our family ancestors kept coming up with men who served three months in the army and then went home to harvest crops. The revolutionary army was all about " well regulated militia. "
A well regulated militia is not slaughtering our children.
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philo
climber
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Gunnutz are all Constitutional scholars.
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Norton
Social climber
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I'm a strict constructionist. I believe we should follow what the founders wrote about.
So everybody turn in your semi automatic weapons and we will re-issue single shot black powder muskets.
and Lorenzo batting cleanup !!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Tenche Coxe: “Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American… The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” – Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
Alexander Hamilton: “The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No.2
Patrick Henry: “Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.
Thomas Jefferson In his Commonplace Book, Jefferson quotes Cesare Beccaria from his seminal work, On Crimes and Punishment: “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
George Mason: “I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people.” (Elliott, Debates, 425-426)
Joseph Story (Supreme Court Justice): “The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic…”
Sir George Tucker: “The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits…and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.” – Sir George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court and U.S. District Court of Virginia in I Blackstone COMMENTARIES Sir George Tucker Ed., 1803, pg. 300 (App.)
George Washington: “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.”
Pretty clear what they meant!
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Norton
Social climber
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yes TGT
it IS indeed very clear that we in 2015 should respect and strictly adhere to exactly
what those guys over 200 years ago thought about stuff
like the fact that they thought owning slaves was perfectly fine and did so themselves
like how they wrote how "all men are created equal", except for black men
point being that they were men of their time, 230 years ago time
and some of what they wrote when they drafted the Preamble, Constitution and Declaration was good and some was just plain bad, and at least they were smart enough to realize
that they were not infallible and so they gave direction for change through Amendments
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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So now the second amendment is equivalent to slavery?
The intent of the second amendment is to PREVENT enslavement.
But then scratch a prog and find a fascist.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Norton! Good points per your post:
yes TGT
it IS indeed very clear that we in 2015 should respect and strictly adhere to exactly
what those guys over 200 years ago thought about stuff
like the fact that they thought owning slaves was perfectly fine and did so themselves
like how they wrote how "all men are created equal", except for black men
point being that they were men of their time, 230 years ago time
and some of what they wrote when they drafted the Preamble, Constitution and Declaration was good and some was just plain bad, and at least they were smart enough to realize
that they were not infallible and so they gave direction for change through Amendments
Of course, back in the 1700's, when the crazy man stepped into a room with an agenda of killing everyone in it, he only had single-shot weapons, which took a while to reload, & of course likly knives & a sword. Maybe Dr. Ben Carson is thinking of that when he advocates rushing the shooter.
Some of us are willing to admit much has changed in the last 200 + years, and we do need to seek new gun-regulation solutions.
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dirtbag
climber
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Just curious: Do you have any idea what an "inalienable right" is or what the founders that wrote that amendment meant by it?
Oh, I know, you're not an "originalist," so who gives a crap what the founders meant by the amendment? We're in the brave new world in which we can reinterpret it to me whatever WE want it to mean.
Do what you will with it, but you change nothing about the inalienable right it RECOGNIZES and does NOT grant.
Lol, yeah I have an idea what it means. Con law classes and all that. To be honest, I was trolling a bit with that comment.
But It does provide some context for why that amendment was added. The truth is that we no longer need to kill Indians, redcoats and black people ourselves: we have the bureau of Indian affairs , the military, and cops to do that. I.e., guvmint. You can safely put away your guns now.
But as soon as someone starts talking about originalism as some kind of coherent legal doctrine, and pretend that we can actually begin to know what the several hundred 18th century minds who ratified the constitution actually thought and apply their supposed thinking to 21st century America, I know they have no idea what they are talking about.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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But It does provide some context for why that amendment was added.
Glad to hear you were trolling a bit.
But the "context" you mention doesn't work. We know from reading their many surrounding documents EXACTLY what they meant, and, more importantly, the timeless principles of government that grounded our founding documents.
"Context" does not mean "principles," and in response to your later point, the PRINCIPLES were not malleable. Those define the very nature of this government. Let those principles slide due to "context," and you no longer have a constitution AT ALL; you are left with the whims of the people at any given moment, which always tend toward subsuming rights under convenience and knee-jerk reactions.
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John M
climber
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exactly what they meant because we have their writings? hmmm We have our writings here and plenty of folks still think most liberals want to take away all guns, no matter how many times we say that we don't. So please..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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We have our writings here and plenty of folks still think most liberals want to take away all guns, no matter how many times we say that we don't. So please..
I certainly understand why you think that, but there is a big difference between groping around regarding what online, anonymous "personas" "mean" and the writings of guys that were intentionally grounded in philosophical principles that are indeed decipherable and understandable, such as the writings of John Locke.
If you want to give up every shred of literary objectivity, particularly about writers like Locke, then you are plunged into a morass of skepticism such that, really, you can't believe in anything. In that case, you have no reason to think you're engaging in an online discussion with real people who have real minds. In which case you have no reason to care about any of this. Etc.
Look, if you want to go "whole hog" at the level you are suggesting, then the phrase "the constitution" has NO referent. Either there is "enough" measure of objectivity for the document (not its paper representation) to have genuine and well-anchored meaning, or there is NOTHING to swear to uphold and protect, and Americans HAVE no real government. And don't confuse the goofballs in Washington with the government.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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The 2nd Amendment was most recently interpreted by a SCOTUS acting through a strongly political lens.
This current reading could be changed and probably will be changed in the future.
Vote, Gun Nutz Be Gone in 2016!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jim, to my mind, you're pretty much out of the discussion. Y'all still bow to the Queen and such. The Canadian mindset and the American mindset on fundamental principles are something like apples and giraffes.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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The Vancouver area, despite being north of the 49th, has been a virtual war zone among gangs for several years. No mass killing but just the daily shootings that make it seem somewhat like my hometown, Baltimore!
Of course the ease of getting guns in the lower Mainland may have something to do with its southern neighbors...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You just have to face up to it that tonight isn't your night.
No worries, and no cheap trick. Regardless of what you guys call your parliamentary democracy, you're monarchists deep in your souls. We're not.
Regardless of how you spin it, deep inside you believe that rights are granted by government. We believe that a small, foundational subset of rights can only be RECOGNIZED by (legitimate) government or ignored by (illegitimate) government.
you should stick to facts instead of resorting to prose.
I'd rather resort to prose than bullets. Don't you agree?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Don't let facts get in the way
Just as there are types of handshakes, there are types of bows. And the fact that some of our leaders are deeply confused doesn't change the ACTUAL facts.
Sheesh, really? Is THIS the level at which you're gonna snipe? If so, as I said, there's nothing to talk about.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Québec is the longest running monarchical territory in North America.
It is older than Canada itself.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Jim, to my mind, you're pretty much out of the discussion.
Translation: I can't refute your arguments, so you don't count.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nationalist, monarchist, what's the difference?
We simply replaced a king with a flag. We send our productivity/money to the same corrupt machinery. We send our sons and daughters to die and murder in the grist mill fighting over the same malleable and arbitrary lines on maps.
The 2-A is nothing but a wedge issue. It's distraction to create division among us. No different than other nonsensical issues like gay marriage and abortion. The thieves at the top don't really care anymore about what firearms are in my closet anymore than they care about what gay people might marry.
We're all being played while the real crimes continue.... and it works.
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dirtbag
climber
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But the "context" you mention doesn't work. We know from reading their many surrounding documents EXACTLY what they meant, and, more importantly, the timeless principles of government that grounded our founding documents.
"Context" does not mean "principles," and in response to your later point, the PRINCIPLES were not malleable. Those define the very nature of this government. Let those principles slide due to "context," and you no longer have a constitution AT ALL; you are left with the whims of the people at any given moment, which always tend toward subsuming rights under convenience and knee-jerk reactions.
Wrong.
We have no idea what anyone truly intends. Politicians especially have been known to say one thing and do another, or do something for other reasons than the ones they articulate.
But even if we assume we we can ascertain what they intended from their writings we are really stuck with having to read writings, to the extent they exist, from 100s of authors, rartifying legislators, delegates, etc. We will never know what they meant, and in any case, it undoubtedly meant many things to many people then just as today. Only a few generations later their grandchildren fought a horrible largely war over its meaning: they couldn't agree either. The law is not so straightforward and figuring it out is not so simplistic or formulaic. So yes, "intent" can be useful, but it has severe limitations. And in any event, we would not want to live in the world the founders hoped to create the constitution, or vice versa. It is a cop out, though, to ignore the "well regulated militia' part of the second amendment. It is there for a reason.
Finally, Mb, foreigners such as Jim (sorry to call you a foreigner, I don't usually think of you that way) can provide a useful mirror for us to look into, and often see absurdities we don't. Canadians are probably our closest cousins culturally and historically. We can learn from them, and they can learn from us.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Translation: I can't refute your arguments, so you don't count.
Gary gets the checkered flag.
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philo
climber
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Monarchists indeed.
I get royally annoyed how over the top enamoured Americans get every time a regal womb plops out a purple prince. It so distracts from the critical coverage of the Bieber.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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I just got a royalty check for natural gas wells down in Live Oak County, Texas.
$14.66
Yeah baby!
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philo
climber
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What a windfall, what are you gonna do in retirement?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I think we are more successful when we are pragmatic instead of stubbornly principled on either side of an issue.. There's many checks and balances in the constitution to prevent changes that are not well thought out so I'm not very worried about our rights being infringed much. And there's usually a path back. Look at prohibition.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html?_r=0
The link above is just a sample of mass killings, not gang violence, but gives some insight into preventing more tragedies.
For me I see:
1. We need better mental health care
2. We need to shore up the existing backgrounds checks so people convicted of a violent crime can't get guns
3. For people who have never been convicted of a crime they will probably always be able to get guns.
4. If a friend or relative commits a crime with your gun you should be held responsible for providing a gun.
5. Whenever there's a red flag, e.g. People talking to a radical cleric or people thrown out of a school for violent tendencies, but they haven't committed a crime so they can still buy a gun. We should have counselors like suicide protection workers who follow up with these people and try to talk them down or refer them to more help before another tragedy. See 1.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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What a windfall, what are you gonna do in retirement?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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For me I see:
1. We need better mental health care
2. We need to shore up the existing backgrounds checks so people convicted of a violent crime can't get guns
3. For people who have never been convicted of a crime they will probably always be able to get guns.
4. If a friend or relative commits a crime with your gun you should be held responsible for providing a gun.
5. Whenever there's a red flag, e.g. People talking to a radical cleric or people thrown out of a school for violent tendencies, but they haven't committed a crime so they can still buy a gun. We should have counselors like suicide protection workers who follow up with these people and try to talk them down or refer them to more help before another tragedy. See 1.
Thank you, The Fet. I don't think I've read any better suggestions than these. They're practical, non-ideological, and worth the bother. For what it's worth, they aren't that different from Norton's, when he resists his urge to beat up on Republicans. Doubtless, for that those reasons, they'll be ignored so both sides can continue tilting at windmills.
John
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John M
climber
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you should read the article I posted above JohnE. It starts to address some of those issues.
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Norton
Social climber
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Thank you, The Fet. I don't think I've read any better suggestions than these. They're practical, non-ideological, and worth the bother. For what it's worth, they aren't that different from Norton's, when he resists his urge to beat up on Republicans. Doubtless, for that those reasons, they'll be ignored so both sides can continue tilting at windmills.
John
ha!
actually, I plead guilty
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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you should read the article I posted above JohnE. It starts to address some of those issues.
I did, John, and it was excellent. In part, the reaction to Murphy's bill, as well as the ideological rants on this thread, motivated me to express skepticism that realistic, useful actions, like those the Fet propose, will take place.
John
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 8, 2015 - 10:08am PT
5. Whenever there's a red flag, e.g. People talking to a radical cleric...
I suppose we can start with ANYONE that has been in contact & talking to this "Radical Cleric" the past 60 or so years. That would be close to over 250K if NOT more.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Oh, and I suggest that the over 120 "HEAVILY ARMED" Security individuals he has to protect his "radial cleric" ass, 24/7, need to be disarmed IMMEDIATELY!
Carry on...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Definitely Philo!
Oh, and to this one,
people thrown out of a school for violent tendencies,
Anyone that has been "expelled" for fighting, would be included here. That would be at 1-2MILLION young men over the past 20-50 years.
That new Federal Agency, "The Gun Control Suicide Agency" is going to be one busy ass lot of Gov't workers. That is of course, if you can get through to them on the phone in order to make an appointment.
Cus for us Vets, that is a complete a joke. Took me 9 days of calling the 1-800 number six times a day to get through and make my 120 day follow up appointment for my ongoing PTSD follow ups.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Chief,
same same for the KKK you guys do nothing about for longer than 60 years.
Carry on.
dem terrorists in your own hood!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
Oct 8, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
Chief,
same same for the KKK you guys do nothing about for longer than 60 years.
You guys? You must mean the Democratic Party.
You do know who this LONGEST SITTING SENIOR DEMOCRAT OR REPUB SENATOR in US History is and his very active role in the national level of the KKK leadership for well over 60 years, is...
So, now we can add any Democrat that ever spoken to that dude during his 50 plus years in in both the Congress and Senate. 2 maybe 3 MILLION???
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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No i dont, Mr.Bean?!
I wont debate if he is a democrat who supports the KKK, is that what your saying is fact?
If so, that's terrible, however, but overall these losers still prance about in your country.
So now, please, post me a Black Panthers photo in retort.
Wait for it.....
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dirtbag
climber
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What's your source for Byrd serving 60 years in the national leadership of the Klan?
He was a member in the 1940s--but 60 years?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Like he was going to make it public after he ran for office in the early 50's that he was an active member of the Klan. Especially after the "Civil Rights" movement of the 60's and being a full fledged career politician.
NOT once during that period of time, 60-70's did he ever PUBLICLY state that the likes of George Wallace etc were wrong. Nor did he EVER publicly endorse MLKJr or anyone in the Civil Rights movement. Cus had he ever done so, his career as a Congressmen/Senator from West Virginia would have been over.
At his funeral there were over 50 or so well known and identified senior local and national Klansmen. All life long close personal friends.
You people really are so frkn naive.
And here is the PROUD DEMOCRATIC dude that took over for Byrd as the current Democratic Senator from W. VA. Proud LIFELONG member of the NRA and his stand on Gun Control is pretty much inline with theirs.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Like I said, carry on.............
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Wrong. I may be naive but dont say all of you so easily.
As a whole I still think its sad you waste so much cash and lives fighting every little worldy squirmish and you do basically nothing about the terrorists living in your own yard.
And I am fine with that being everyones fault.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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As a whole I still think its sad you waste so much cash and lives fighting every little worldy squirmish and you do basically nothing about the terrorists living in your own yard.
The ONLY know possible terrorists I may have living "my backyard", are a bunch of wanna-be Greenpeacers.
The rest of the folks here are cops, retired cops, retired Vets and a buttload of cattle ranchers and hay farmers.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Your alpha male attitude is typical of your kind.
Carry on with whatever you have to say buddy.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
Oct 8, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Your alpha male attitude is typical of your kind..... buddy.
If you say so AND no problem, buddy... Gerg!
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dirtbag
climber
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Like he was going to make it public after he ran for office in the early 50's that he was an active member of the Klan. Especially after the "Civil Rights" movement of the late 60's and being a full fledged career politician.
In other words, you're making sh#t up.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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sorry is re-wording with "....." buddy supposed to mean something I am unaware of?
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dirtbag
climber
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Byrd has a poor record on civil rights in the 50s and 60s, was an active kkk leader in the 40s, and I'm sure was sympathetic to the Klan in the 50s.
But you said he was active for 60 years at the national level, which is made up.
You're sliding around your previous statement.
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dirtbag
climber
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You do know who this LONGEST SITTING SENIOR DEMOCRAT OR REPUB SENATOR in US History is and his very active role in the national level of the KKK leadership for well over 60 years, is...
That's what you said.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Keep making excuses for you racially charged and totally prejudice Democratic Senior Sitting Senator, Byrd. Dirtbag. Goes in line with anyone here that would do the same for.... GW!
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dirtbag
climber
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I didn't make any excuses: I said he had a poor civil rights record. Don't put words in my mouth.
I never voted for him nor did he represent any place I have lived. He wasn't my senator or Representative.
You presented a fact, and when asked to back it up, couldn't but instead, deflected.
You could just admit you were mistaken, but dug in instead.
It's amusing, actually.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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And here was some of Democratic Senator BYRD's Gun Control voting ...
Voted YES on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices
Reference: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397 ; vote number 2005-219 on Jul 29, 2005
Out.
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dirtbag
climber
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So. 60 years in the national kkk.
What's your source?
Or would you like to retract your claim?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Prove me wrong Dirtbag?
Like you have any source that he wasn't. The KKK of course has an open website that shows it's annual membership since 1867 after the Democrats started it to ensure amongst many things, that Blacks/Free Slaves AND Native Americans were NEVER allowed to own a gun.
I aint retracting shet. Byrd was a closet Klansmen and prejudice towards blacks till the day he died.
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dirtbag
climber
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It's not my job to disprove you.
Nor is it your "job" to back up a claim.
But when you enter this discussion, and can't back up what you say, we are left to conclude. you are making this up.
So, you are making up a fact.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Amazing all this hype about "School Shootings" etc.
They have been in existence since back in 1850 when records began.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
And the worst School Attack in the US History, did not have one gun utilized in it.
The Bath School disaster was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, that killed 38 elementary school children and six adults and injured at least 58 other people.[Note 1] Kehoe killed his wife and firebombed his farm, then detonated a major explosion in the Bath Consolidated School, before committing suicide by detonating a final explosion in his truck. It is the deadliest mass murder to take place at a school in United States history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
So, just goes to prove that if anyone LOON wants to attack a school, they do NOT need a gun.
Same goes for any Gov't building.. The Oklahoma City Bombing. Not one gun used. Just a couple tons of Bull shet and ammonia etc.
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John M
climber
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I would like to hear from JohnE
on one of the now deleted threads he claimed libs are for controlling others… It is a very divisive statement, as though repubs don't want to control what others do.
I would like him to explain himself.
For example.. does this mean that repubs aren't for making murder illegal. or abortion, or drugs, or unsafe buildings.. or unsafe food practices. Is it okay for the nuclear industry to dump waste next to your house? should nudity be legal since thats about controlling others?
if you make a broad generalization about that then you better be prepared to back it up or apologize.
…..
Edit: bombs aren't that easy to build Chief, or more of them would happen.
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Norton
Social climber
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Just got online to this forum
and what do I see but Dirtbag lying, making stuff up
and then refusing to admit that he is wrong, only a child would do that
what am I missing here?
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dirtbag
climber
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That about sums it up, Norton.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Edit: bombs aren't that easy to build Chief, or more of them would happen.
Really...
Tell that to the people of Boston, Oklahoma City, Mumbai, and Stockholm etc.
Again, the WORST School Attack in US history was in 1927 that killed 38 elementary school children and six adults and injured at least 58 other people and not one gun was used. 100% Explosives. Anyone can by a 150 lb cylinder of O2. Four of those going off at the same time will indeed do some major destruction.
Take the ability to get a gun away. Good.
But that will not prevent a whacked out individual/s from carrying out their desires to instill chaos and horror. Fact!
Chinese authorities say two WOMEN were part of knife-wielding terror gang which left at least 33 dead and 143 wounded after attacking a train station in China.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570996/At-27-dead-109-injured-gang-knife-wielding-men-attack-train-station-China.html#ixzz3o13eysWA
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John M
climber
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But that will not prevent a whacked out individual/s from carrying out their desires to instill chaos and horror. Fact!
it will slow them down Chief.. its not all or nothing..
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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it will slow them down Chief..
How much slower can you get. Apparently this asswipe in OR had been planning this event for a several months.
As with the Colorado shooting and Sandy Hook.
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John M
climber
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not the kind of slowing I'm talking about Chief.. not that many people are capable of building bombs. The kids in Columbine tried to use bombs. They didn't work. The guns did.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I would like to hear from JohnE
on one of the now deleted threads he claimed libs are for controlling others… It is a very divisive statement, as though repubs don't want to control what others do.
I would like him to explain himself.
John, as I explained in the deleted thread, the statement I made was immediately followed by this:
;>)
That wink meant I was kidding. Well, OK, it could be openly and notoriously trolling, too.
Edit: I'm mixing this up with another comment on a different thread. Sorry, John. Of course Republicans think the government should try to control anti-social behavior. My comment on Democrats (as evidenced by the current California Legislature) really meant that Democrats desire to control voluntary behavior more than Republicans do. I think, though, this discussion belongs on a different thread.
John
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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The kids in Columbine tried to use bombs.
They DIDN'T try!
They had em but just did not get around to detonating them.. They were shot dead before they could get to most of them that they had placed throughout the school.
Also, their car bomb went off at 11PM vice 11AM when they thought that they set it for.
ONLY ONE propane bomb failed. The other one went off prematurely and took out the cafeteria windows etc.
Using instructions found on the Internet, Harris and Klebold constructed a total of 99 improvised explosive devices of various designs and sizes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
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John M
climber
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Also, their car bomb went off at 11PM vice 11AM when they thought that they set it for.
it didn't explode. It burned and was easily put out… which is my point. Bombs are harder to build and to make them actually work. Guns are easy to buy and use. Easier access means more people can do it. Timing is only part of the equation of a bomb.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Bombs are harder to build and to make them actually work.
They are really easy to build and make work.
Keeping them from working until they are supposed to is the hard part.
Ask your prince Barry's domestic terrorist friend Bill Ayers about that one.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Knew it was coming, right?
Ben Carson said Thursday that Adolf Hitler’s mass murder of Jews “would have been greatly diminished” if German citizens had not been disarmed by the Nazi regime.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Wow.
Godwin's law invoked.
Buh-bye Ben.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Hey Chief! I was hoping you might post up some fishing photos from your day off this thread. Instead, we just get more bluster. Hopefully you didn’t kill another deer with you truck.
Oh!
I suspect you can’t wait to chuf about my reply to your last stupid & confused retort to one of my posts.
Oct 7, 2015 - 07:38am PT
Das Chuf!
Per your last indignant post about me:
And I love how Fritz comes on here time and time again to lecture ANYONE that defends the 2nd Amendment on how terrible the current situation is in America, after making a career of ....
Selling GUNS and accessories that make their effectiveness that much better.
Chuff: I regret to inform you that your reading comprehension continues at a 3rd grade level.
Selling Outdoor gear only equates to selling guns & shooting accessories in your strange right-wing mind.
Try not to accidently hit another deer on your drive today.
But!
There are no accidents, according to you.
So why did you choose to kill that deer with your car last week?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Apparently, as Columbine showed, kids stupid enough to not be able to make bombs work as planned, were able to use guns quite easily.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 8, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
Hey Chief! I was hoping you might post up some fishing photos from your day off this thread. Instead, we just get more bluster. Hopefully you didn’t kill another deer with you truck.
Oh!
I suspect you can’t wait to chuf about my reply to your last stupid & confused retort to one of my posts.
Oct 7, 2015 - 07:38am PT
Das Chuf!
Per your last indignant post about me:
And I love how Fritz comes on here time and time again to lecture ANYONE that defends the 2nd Amendment on how terrible the current situation is in America, after making a career of ....
Selling GUNS and accessories that make their effectiveness that much better.
Chuff: I regret to inform you that your reading comprehension continues at a 3rd grade level.
Selling Outdoor gear only equates to selling guns & shooting accessories in your strange right-wing mind.
Try not to accidently hit another deer on your drive today.
But!
There are no accidents, according to you.
So why did you choose to kill that deer with your car last week?
Appears you need to hug those guns of yours that you "love" so much, Frits.
And BTW, thanks for proving this gentleman, 100% spot on correct.... especially time :40 through 1:02
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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John M
climber
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whats funny is that you could replace "progressives" with "conservatives" in that video and it would be the same.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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John M
climber
Oct 8, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
whats funny is that you could replace "progressives" with "conservatives" in that video and it would be the same.
What's even funnier JOHN M, that your above post was of course so stunningly fast on the draw to state what you did and of course so predictable.
What's even funnier than that, I posted the video at 8:15 and you posted your reply at 8:17. The Video is 6:15 long.
Thanks for also proving the gentleman's point. So predictably intolerant of anyone that does not agree with your ideology and opinions. And having to twist and turn things around to your favor WITHOUT even watching or hearing what was said.
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John M
climber
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sure Chief, I listened to about a minute of it. So what. its the same drivel you alway post. What else is new. You like to insult people. I get that. I don't need a video to tell me that.
Edit: and yes.. I'm intolerant of people who claim they love to insult other people as though that makes them cool or superior because of how easy it is. Its easy to insult you. Does that make me superior?
Good night Chief, you live in a beautiful place and I respect the art that you do, and the work that you have done, but your online persona is crappy.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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its the same drivel you alway post.
And of course NOTHING that any of you "gun loving" (Fritz) Liberals and your ideology ever posts here is anything like drivel. It's all good, logical and real.
Got it.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I'm intolerant of people who claim they love to insult other people
Ah, you must be talking about...
LOcker
Crankstar
Fritz
Philo
Etc Etc.....
Love it.
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John M
climber
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no Chief, I never claimed to be perfect and I don't speak for others, But you are predictable. You see everything in black and white.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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You see everything in black and white
You mean Real and Bullshet?
You state that Trump is a stooge for his plan to deport over 5 million illegals. I agree that is totally unreal.
Yet, you support requiring anyone that applies for an FFL gun permit in order to purchase a legal weapon to go through some kind of psychological/mental health background testing. Totally infringing on and violating their rights to medical privacy.
There are over 300 million legal gun owners currently in the US. Are you going to require and subject them to all do the same? Or, are you going to grandfather their current status.
But yet you and many others here disdain racial profiling in a known high crime/drug area.
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John M
climber
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I've never said word one about Trump.. so I don't know who you are talking about.
And I don't necessarily support trying to psychoanalyze everyone who wants to own a gun. Read the article by the republican that I posted earlier. He has some good ideas. Oh my God… I'm a nazi liberal prog who likes what a republican said. Oh my god.. the world must be turning upside down. Did your head explode Chief when I said I like what a republican said?
So no Chief.. you don't know me.
But yet you and many others here disdain racial profiling in a known high crime/drug area.
most racial profiling happens well outside know high crime areas..And when it ends in a dead kid who was walking his own bike home after dark, then yes, I'm against racial profiling.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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So no Chief.. you don't know me.
Right back at you.
most racial profiling happens well outside know high crime areas..And when it ends in a dead kid who was walking his own bike home after dark, then yes, I'm against racial profiling.
Most? Hmmmmm
And if it saves a family from being murdered by a drive by, or a dozen or two Middle Schooler's from getting a hold of some really bad drugs and then getting hooked on em, or a girl from being gang rapped or..then what, John M.
The same ideology you all are promoting here with your "good ideas" for gun control are the exact same reasons that racial profiling was implemented for. Possibly stop a crime of the magnitude I described above from happening. Which in fact has occurred more times than many of you wish to admit to.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Don't any of you people understand what a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy is? Arguing with a CPO is about as stupid as stupid gets.
Understand this: If you argue with a CPO, you can't win, and you can't break even. But unlike life, you can choose not to play.
As the wise man said, "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
And Chief, I hope you understand that no disrespect is intended.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ghost thank you for sharing what I already know, since several of my uncles and some cousins were career military.
Don't any of you people understand what a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy is? Arguing with a CPO is about as stupid as stupid gets.
Understand this: If you argue with a CPO, you can't win, and you can't break even. But unlike life, you can choose not to play.
As the wise man said, "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
And Chief, I hope you understand that no disrespect is intended.
However!
I do enjoy pig-baiting the pig-minded CPO------Das Chief!
Or not.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 8, 2015 - 09:42pm PT
Ghost thank you for sharing what I already know, since several of my uncles and some cousins were career military.
Yup.... definitely a career shoe, I mean sporting goods, salesmen! Cus your ignorance continues to shine bright.
US Navy Chief's and Career Military.... Apples and Walnuts. Even Ghost will tell that.
But do keep patting yourself on the back. Oh, your double standards/hypocrisy shines even brighter. All to be a likable guy amongst the ... ST Tribe.
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 8, 2015 - 09:42pm PT
I do enjoy pig-baiting the pig-minded CPO------Das Chief!
Not as much as you "love" your guns and your lifetime membership to the NRA!
Tooo funneeee, Fritus. Tooo fking funeeeeee!
EDIT: So tell us Fritus, how many deer have YOU killed with all those guns that you dearly love, simply out of, sport?
Most assuredly more than you can remember. Nice.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Chief=King of the Tards
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Of course F... the "Conservative". Kinda like old Kos. AND... Norton. And of course or Fritus and all his guns that he loves so dearly.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Oh, almost forgot..
Hey NORTON, how long you been a member of the NRA? And why the fk are you packing 24/7 in New Mexico... the land of the "Enchanted"??? According to the OPist, BOBda, that region is a bundle of love, peace and happiness.
Talk about being paranoid, NORTON!
You peep libtards crack me up.
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philo
climber
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Dude you are cracked and don't need anyone's help up.
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philo
climber
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Guns spelled backwards is snug and nuts backwards is stun. Thought you'd want to know.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^^ AWESOME!
By that AWESOME logic, we need to IMMEDIATELY remove all guns from the hands of police, FBI, Secret Service, bank guards, AND the military!
GUNS have been the problem all along, and we didn't even see it until that AWESOME graphic! Guns NEVER do ANY good for ANYBODY, no matter whose hands they are in!!! So STRIP them from the hands of ALL of those worthless do-gooder types that OBVIOUSLY NEVER use them for good EVER anyway!!!
Yayyyyy!!! Problem SOLVED, and all thanks to ONE crisp, clean, easy-to-understand graphic!!!!!!!!!!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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^^^^EDWARD T! Why are you posting such facts and reality??? These paranoid GUNS ARE THE PROPBLEM ZOMBIES do not want to read shet like that. It insults their intelligence....
philo
climber
Oct 8, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
Dude you are cracked and don't need anyone's help up.
Then posts this an hour later...
philo
climber
Oct 9, 2015 - 12:26am PT
Guns spelled backwards is snug and nuts backwards is stun. Thought you'd want to know.
BEYOND, Priceless!
EDIT: Ya'll have a good day with your insistent GUN FEAR posting. Off to the high country for more of this....
AND ...
far less of this Zombie Buttsnorkling Hypocrisy....
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
I Love my guns....
Norton
Social climber
Oct 7, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
I have a Concealed Carry Permit, carry 24/7....
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philo
climber
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http://youtu.be/N0Wn3Eey6dY
Meanwhile, in the real world...
CRIME
1 Killed, 3 Wounded In Shooting At Northern Arizona University
This is the second school shooting in the U.S. this month.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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The Anti-Defamation League condemned the comments, saying in a statement: “Ben Carson has a right to his views on gun control, but the notion that Hitler’s gun-control policy contributed to the Holocaust is historically inaccurate. The small number of personal firearms available to Germany’s Jews in 1938 could in no way have stopped the totalitarian power of the Nazi German state.”
Carson called the Anti-Defamation League’s statement this morning “total foolishness.”
More gunz = less Holocausts
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The small number of personal firearms available to Germany’s Jews in 1938 could in no way have stopped the totalitarian power of the Nazi German state.”
Reinforces his point, doesn't it.
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Norton
Social climber
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?
so Rick, where exactly is the hypocrisy in my having a Concealed Carry License?
and why do you personally seem to have a problem with that?
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philo
climber
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It's not the "gun" its the culture of gun glorification that's culpable.
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Norton
Social climber
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Hey NORTON, how long you been a member of the NRA? And why the fk are you packing 24/7 in New Mexico... the land of the "Enchanted"??? According to the OPist, BOBda, that region is a bundle of love, peace and happiness.
wow
for a long time I thought "the chief" was just trolling for personal entertainment
it has become clear that he really is an ignorant man with serious social issues
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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If I read this whole thread, will I know what's gone?
Should I care??
And speaking of guns, how about that guy Carson! Think he pissed off (or on) any Jews lately?
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philo
climber
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K man whats gone is everyone's minds.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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for a long time I thought "the chief" was just trolling for personal entertainment
it has become clear that he really is an ignorant man with serious social issues
Exactly why he might not be qualified to own weapons!
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Here's some of the lovely citizens of Roseburg, OR welcoming the president today before he spoke privately with the victims families. Wonderful people, the gunNuts, huh? Wonder what time the cross burning is.
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dirtbag
climber
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Roseburg has always been quite conservative. It doesn't surprise me.
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dirtbag
climber
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I'm surprised he took a break from orchestrating Jade Helm to travel.
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philo
climber
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Happy Birthday John Lennon.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Yep, that would be some local Citizens out availing themselves of the freedom of expression this Country is built on. Heartening to see folks both for, and against the President's visit taking time out on a warm Fall day to peacefully participate.
They are certainly free to protest, as I am to express disgust at their messaging. You may find displaying Confederate flags and signs proclaiming, " Go back to Kenya", heartening, but I don't. And their gun culture contributed to this tragedy.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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their gun culture contributed to this tragedy
That's just absurd.
Flat out.
"They" had as much "responsibility" for this latest incident as Obama or you.
A sick puppy wanted to kill people to gain fame for himself. He availed himself of the tools at hand. End of story. Better for the MEDIA to have never mentioned his name or the names of those sick puppies that preceded him.
You want a "their" to hang responsibility on? Hang it on the media that GLORIFY these sick puppies.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Trees
BY JOYCE KILMER
I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.
A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth’s sweet flowing breast;
A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;
A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;
Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Gun crowd makes sure guns are available to anyone and everyone, then decries "the media" for reporting the mass murders.
False, and false.
The first claim is utterly, completely, entirely irrelevant to this Oregon incident (and the vast majority of previous mass-shootings). NONE of the gun-control laws you'd love to see passed would have the slightest effect on these incidents. These guys virtually always have their guns through not only LEGAL channels but channels that would NOT have been "closed off" by any proposed gun-control legislation. Guns are ABSOLUTELY NOT "available to anyone and everyone!" Not by a long shot. LOL
The second claim is patently ridiculous! The media do not just "report" on these incidents. They DO flat-out glorify the shooters, follow them, dig out every tiny detail about them and broadcast it, fall all over themselves to SCOOP a tidbit and "be the first" to cite "breaking news!" And these shooters are now explicitly SAYING what many of us have believed for years: "You wanna be famous? You've gotta kill some people."
Until YOU and your ilk connect the causal dots PROPERLY, you'll spin your wheels on failed gun-control efforts that are as hopelessly ineffectual as was prohibition, and all the while you'll fail to do anything that even possibly COULD help, starting with identifying the ACTUALLY contributing factors in the fact that somebody can get so SICK as to seek "fame" via shooting people.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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There's a big difference between "hearing about" the shooting and how the media glorifies it.
For one thing, the shooter's name should not be publicly released. If it trickles out, it's at least not broadcast. These guys should become so pariah that they are "the name that must not be named." Then we'll see how much of glory-hounds they remain.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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You're just wrong about almost everything, MB. You're just channeling Fox, the NRA and talk radio nonstop.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Crankster & all!
Re your post:
Oct 9, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
Yep, that would be some local Citizens out availing themselves of the freedom of expression this Country is built on. Heartening to see folks both for, and against the President's visit taking time out on a warm Fall day to peacefully participate.
They are certainly free to protest, as I am to express disgust at their messaging. You may find displaying Confederate flags and signs proclaiming, " Go back to Kenya", heartening, but I don't. And their gun culture contributed to this tragedy.
Yeah, but on the bright side, no locals were reported as up in trees, or on hilltops, trying to shoot our President Obama.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You're just wrong about almost everything, MB. You're just channeling Fox, the NRA and talk radio nonstop.
Oh, YOU said it. That's it then. Must be true.
I'm so ashamed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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What I find downright funny is that you guys fall all over yourselves to defend a "free press" (that is anything BUT), such that the damage we KNOW it does is just okey-dokey. Literally, what we KNOW to be a direct causal chain in the motivation of some of these sick puppies is just a NECESSARY side effect of the "unrestricted freedom" the press MUST have.
But 100,000,000 legal gun carriers just MUST be "restricted" in ways that have NO demonstrable causal connection to the incidents you USE to make a partisan point.
"The GUN CULTURE" (whatever that is) "did" it. But the media have NO accountability whatsoever. THEY must remain "free" at ALL costs.
You cherry pick amendments to suit your PREFERENCES, having nothing to do with what causal connections have been revealed. It's like watching you play a game of Twister. Good, clean fun!
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dirtbag
climber
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All amendments have their limitations.
Second amendment included.
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dirtbag
climber
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It's a tool, not a second penis.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You're missing my point. I don't have a problem with freedom of the press. I'm pointing out the inconsistency in thinking among those who seem to wish for unrestricted freedom of the press, even when we KNOW of evils it causes. Yet they want TONS of restrictions on the second amendment, even in cases in which it is clear that the proposed legislation is causally unrelated.
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dirtbag
climber
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Who has called for unrestricted freedom of press?
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dirtbag
climber
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You can't libel someone, threaten, harass or yell fire in a theatre.
You can't disturb the peace by blaring a megaphone wherever you want.
I think most people would agree these are reasonable restrictions.
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philo
climber
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Madbolter, what is your opinion on the US Postal Service?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You can't libel someone, threaten, harass or yell fire in a theatre. You can't disturb the peace by blaring a megaphone wherever you want.
You are conflating things here. Regarding the press, libel, etc., there are NO restrictions. The courts have perpetually reiterated a principle called "no prior restraint." If the press does engage in libel, the damaged party can sue for damages... AFTER the event. There is "no prior restraint," although countless people have tried in advance to keep damaging material from appearing in the press.
Regarding "speech," you cannot LIE to incite panic, and you cannot incite mobs. I hardly see how that sort of "restriction" is relevant AT ALL.
The point remains that the press is unrestricted and speech is BARELY restricted, even though we KNOW of damage DIRECTLY related to these very shooting incidents.
But the TOOL... now that is EVIL and MUST be heavily restricted, and sooner than later.
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 06:38am PT
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Madbolt why can't you answer simple questions?
Do you have kids?
What is your opinion on the USPS?
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Oct 10, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Norton
Social climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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Hermitmaster,
who are these people on this forum who have called for all guns to be confiscated?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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"Modest" too. I doubt anyone expects crime problems to be solved with reforms.
Oct 9, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
You can't libel someone, threaten, harass or yell fire in a theatre. You can't disturb the peace by blaring a megaphone wherever you want.
You are conflating things here. Regarding the press, libel, etc., there are NO restrictions. The courts have perpetually reiterated a principle called "no prior restraint." If the press does engage in libel, the damaged party can sue for damages... AFTER the event. There is "no prior restraint," although countless people have tried in advance to keep damaging material from appearing in the press Lol. That is restraint on free speech.
Yes, it is after the fact. So what? You can't really stop someone from mouthing off, but you can hold them responsible. The point is there are constraints on the bill of rights.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:35am PT
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who are these people on this forum who have called for all guns to be confiscated?
I'm not aware of anyone on the forum, but Obama sure does.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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dirtbag
climber
Oct 9, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
It's a tool, not a second penis.
Concur 100%.
You might readdress that fact to your buttsnorkling buddies here, Frutz and Norton.
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
I Love my guns....
Norton
Social climber
Oct 7, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
I have a Concealed Carry Permit, carry 24/7....
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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Norton
Social climber
Oct 10, 2015 - 08:41am PT
Norton - Why do you feel the need to carry 24/7?
I own a business, a very, very cash intensive business that unfortunately makes myself and my employees possible robbery targets
I know several people that do the same. Three of them operate their "very cash intensive business" in the Los Angeles area. BUT they do NOT own a gun let alone carry 24/7.
Are you paranoid, Norton? Why the need to "protect" yourself with a, "gun"? Do you have a large sign on you that states you are carrying large amounts of cash?
EDIT: Ah, are you "dealing", Norton?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:48am PT
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You might readdress that fact to your buttsnorkling buddies here, Frutz and Norton.
I don't know how to butt snorkel.
You seem to know a lot. Care to share?
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:52am PT
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
I Love my guns....
Norton
Social climber
Oct 7, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
I have a Concealed Carry Permit, carry 24/7....
Be very curious to see how many "closet" gun lovers there are on this thread that dare not fess up to being so.
BUT... continue to post the same song and dance as the "tribe" in order to be one of the .. "Dudes".
Talk about "buttsnorkling"...
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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Butsnorkler; see the chief.
The shethead is so dense he doesn't realize the original use of the term was in regards to him.
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
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Odd.. You can't even spell it correctly AND I made up the term specifically for YOU and your asslicking buddies here,
No lil man I'm talking about where you first heard the term.
As your nick name in the Gay Porn chat rooms.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
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Yet they want TONS of restrictions on the second amendment,
A little over the top dont you think?
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Oct 10, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
I'm talking about where I first heard the term.
It's my nick name in the Gay Porn chat rooms .
How good of you to be honest.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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So says the lead Buttsnorkler here that does more "Tardshet repeating" than all of us combined.
Keep up the good work LOcker!
more like Buttgluegunler
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
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LOcker, I can see why you are NO longer in the "Counseling" business and are now a professional climbing shoe re-soler.
It's a legal way of getting.... "High".
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 10, 2015 - 11:48am PT
TARD repeating himself...
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 8, 2015 - 11:46am PT
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 7, 2015 - 09:26am PT
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 10, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Chief Lil Smokey...
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 10, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
Dude why don't you quit being such an ASSHOLE and do something about your...
PRICELESS, LOcker.... you just can NOT make this shet up!
Starting to seriously wonder if you LOcker left Counseling, or, more realistically, got your ass, SHETCANNED for displaying the "odd" behavior as you do here on ST on a regular consistent basis. Evidenced by your recent posts...
EDIT: You're fascination with dicks and ballsacks is rather disturbing, LOcker. I suggest you seek some serious, "Counseling" for that Ball Sacking and Baboon dick phobia you got going there.
EDIT EDIT: OH, and about that "unsolicited advice" of yours, I think not. Considering the disturbing shet you post on here regarding others, LOcker
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Oct 10, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
I'm talking about where I first heard the term.
It's my nick name in the Gay Porn chat rooms .
How good of you to be honest.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^REAL, Philco..... Keeping it ALL, REAL!
Between your recent insinuating gay chat room posts and LOckers disturbing Baboon dick posts, the two of you have seriously hit the mark of...
"Totally Priceless"
I truly hope that neither of you two OWN ANY GUNS. Cus you both certainly would meet the "mentally disturbed" mark that you all want imposed so those afflicted with such, could NEVER legally own one, a gun.
Thanks for setting the perfect and real example mark, LOcker and Philco.
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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From Huffpo
THE BLOG
Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today?
After a decision by the Supreme Court affirming the right of individuals to own guns, then-Chicago Mayor Richard Daley sarcastically said, "Then why don't we do away with the court system and go back to the Old West, you have a gun and I have a gun and we'll settle it in the streets?" This is a common refrain heard in the gun debate. Gun control advocates fear -- and gun rights proponents sometimes hope -- the Second Amendment will transform our cities into modern-day versions of Dodge.
Yet this is all based on a widely shared misunderstanding of the Wild West. Frontier towns -- places like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge -- actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.
In fact, many of those same cities have far less burdensome gun control today then they did back in the 1800s.
Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."
A check? That's right. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you'd check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.
In my new book, Gunfight: The Battle over the Right to Bear Arms in America, there's a photograph taken in Dodge City in 1879. Everything looks exactly as you'd imagine: wide, dusty road; clapboard and brick buildings; horse ties in front of the saloon. Yet right in the middle of the street is something you'd never expect. There's a huge wooden billboard announcing, "The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited."
While people were allowed to have guns at home for self-protection, frontier towns usually barred anyone but law enforcement from carrying guns in public.
When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.
Today in Tombstone, you don't even need a permit to carry around a firearm. Gun rights advocates are pushing lawmakers in state after state to do away with nearly all limits on the ability of people to have guns in public.
Like any law regulating things that are small and easy to conceal, the gun control of the Wild West wasn't always perfectly enforced. But statistics show that, next to drunk and disorderly conduct, the most common cause of arrest was illegally carrying a firearm. Sheriffs and marshals took gun control seriously.
Although some in the gun community insist that more guns equals less crime, in the Wild West they discovered that gun control can work. Gun violence in these towns was far more rare than we commonly imagine. Historians who've studied the numbers have determined that frontier towns averaged less than two murders a year. Granted, the population of these towns was small. Nevertheless, these were not places where duels at high noon were commonplace. In fact, they almost never occurred.
Why is our image of the Wild West so wrong? Largely for the same reason these towns adopted gun control laws in the first place: economic development. Residents wanted limits on guns in public because they wanted to attract businesspeople and civilized folk. What prospective storeowner was going to move to Deadwood if he was likely to be robbed when he brought his daily earnings to the bank?
Once the frontier was closed, those same towns glorified a supposedly violent past in order to attract tourists and the businesses to serve them. Gunfights were extremely rare in frontier towns, but these days you can see a reenactment of the one at the OK Corral several times a day. Don't forget to buy a souvenir!
The story of guns in America is far more complex and surprising than we've often been led to believe. We've always had a right to bear arms, but we've also always had gun control. Even in the Wild West, Americans balanced these two and enacted laws restricting guns in order to promote public safety. Why should it be so hard to do the same today?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
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Yup, Edward T.
I'm starting to wonder if Norton is a 24/7 assault weapon carrying/yielding/utilizing "Canadian" Drug Dealer..
[Click to View YouTube Video]
So much for all that bullshet about Canadian Gun Control.
EDIT:
Hey LOcker, do you OWN any GUNS?
If so,
a) Do you "Love" them as much as Fruitz does?
b) How in God's name were you ever allowed to do so, legally?
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philo
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
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You are a piece of work.
Life in Shetlandia must be paradise.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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philo
climber
Oct 10, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
You are a piece of work.
--------------------------
Life in Shetlandia must be paradise.
Thank you. Philco
----------------------------------------------------------
No where near as much a "paradise' as in the outskirts of Philoville, CO., nor does not eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeven come close. That is with all them stashed guns and all.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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Chief Dood, we don't care so much that you have guns as we would hope you could grow out of bragging about it and using them for an identity crutch...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:41pm PT
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 10, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
Chief Dood, we don't care so much that you have guns as we would hope you could grow out of bragging about it and using them for an identity crutch...
Identity crutch?
Ah, you obviously have me mistaken with these two dooooods that keep whining about the lack of gun control in this nation, not me....
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
I Love my guns....
Norton
Social climber
Oct 7, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
I have a Concealed Carry Permit, carry 24/7....
Besides Eastman, where did I ever post anything that comes close to using any gun as an "identy crutch' as them two above have, repeatedly, on this thread? Where...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 10, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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What the hell is that back plasticky gun in the lower right corner of the video clip above? Looks like an evil assault nail-gun. I love how everything that goes "pew" in the media is high-powered.
I might not agree with everything the Chief believes but he sure seems to apply logic and not "feelings" to his arguments.
Carry on you magnificent nutcases.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 10:29pm PT
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What the hell is that back plasticky gun in the lower right corner of the video clip above...
A Czech manu'd version of a Ravensquad fully auto assault 9mm pistol that holds a 20 and 30 round mag.
Similar to a TEC9 Auto Pistol.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 10, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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If gun control freaks can't understand black market guns, I have no other argument.
Zzzzzzzzzzz.....talk to Jews in the 30-40's. Ask them if they wanted a Luger when the Brownshirts showed up, or the Gestapo, asking their family to pack up and "go away".
Be very careful when you ask for fewer guns. The US has very good background checks. I have to pay to go through FBI DROS fees and background checks to buy all of my 4 weapons. Am I cleared?
I was cleared.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 10:53pm PT
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I have to pay to go through FBI DROS fees and background checks..
You forgot the ten day waiting period AND the initial finger print BGC through ATF.
FYI... For anyone that wants to acquire an "automatic assault rifle/gun" manufactured prior to 1986 any where in the US, the following must be completed..
-Pay a tax of $200
-Fill out a lengthy application to register your gun with the federal government
-Submit photographs
-Submit passport photos
-Get your chief law enforcement official to sign your application
-Wait for the results of your background check to come back
A violation of the national firearms act results in a felony punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison, a $100,000 fine, and forfeiture of the individual’s right to own or possess firearms in the future.
And NO ONE can legally acquire any automatic assault rifle/gun manu'd after 1986. Only a manufacturer and an authorized FFL Dealer can be in legal possession of one after the Fed Gov't (ATF) approves them of doing so for each weapon.
Each state & County has it's own regs and laws as well which supersede Fed Laws for their state/County.
This all per the the 1934 NFA & H.R. 4332 that was enacted on May 19, 1986
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 10, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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Yes, it is after the fact. So what? You can't really stop someone from mouthing off, but you can hold them responsible. The point is there are constraints on the bill of rights.
I'm beyond baffled! Look, if you agree with me that there's "no prior restraint" and that we can only "hold them responsible" "after the fact," then we are on EXACTLY the same page about gun control!
EXACTLY!
I believe in "NO PRIOR RESTRAINT" for the second amendment also! And, yes, DO hold 'em responsible for ANY misuse! For sure. That's what criminal law is in place to accomplish: Responsibility, accountability, for misuse of freedoms.
SO glad to see that you're coming around, finally. We are on the SAME page about "no prior restraint!" Yayyyy!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 10, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
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Yes, Chief. Also have to pass a Handgun Safety Test if purchasing a sidearm. I scored a 100%, TYVM!
It's a written test but you have to read up to get a 100% score, they have a couple of trick questions.
"What is the best direction to safely discharge a firearm?"
A. up
B. down
C. in a safe direction
I also like the question about drinking and shooting. How many drinks is it okay to discharge a firearm with?
ReallY???
Ugghhhh....
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 10, 2015 - 11:08pm PT
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It's a written test but you have to read up to get a 100% score
Retired Military with valid/current Retired DOD ID are exempt from taking the written test.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 04:41am PT
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If I were to arsenal up it would be to defend against the tyranny of the masses not the government. It would be to protect against the lunatic fringe of gun nuts not some boogie man criminal.
You who would cling to your guns in the face of such human carnage are the enemy of a free and peaceful society not the defenders of freedom you imagine yourselves to be.
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:29am PT
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philo wrote:
"You who would cling to your guns in the face of such human carnage are the enemy of a free and peaceful society not the defenders of freedom you imagine yourselves to be"
What a screwed up perspective. You're way crazier then the chief.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:26am PT
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Yeah right Specterman.
Sadly for you and the other deluded bullet brains the facts bear me out.
More Americans have died from domestic gun violence than in all our wars combined.
But you Patsy wring your hands and cringe in fear of Isis or what ever bogieman d'jour your puppet masters tell you to hate and fear.
Mean while the real enemy is right here.
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - pogo
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:30am PT
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I love it when other people see the false bullshit of what's presented as Canada to the outside world.
Maybe it's a matter of scale but the facts are Gangs and other Canadian criminals trade Canadian farmed weed for American guns and cocaine over our mutual border.
This is not a surprise or anything that hasn't been going on for many years.
That can't be right, guns are illegal in Canada
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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Remember this guy?
Charles Joseph Whitman was an American engineering student at the University of Texas, former U.S. Marine, and a mass murderer who killed 16 people. In the early morning hours of August 1, 1966, Whitman murdered his wife and mother in their homes. Wikipedia
He was all the good things gun advocates chant about, student, father, ex-marine.
A good guy with a gun. 45 people shoot in 90 minutes.
Lesson unlearned Texas passed law allowing guns everywhere on campus.
I'm sure some good guy with a glock should be easily able to take down a sniper concealed in a clock tower.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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More Americans have died from domestic gun violence than in all our wars combined
Bullshet Philco...
Post a ref with actual stats/numbers from the FBI. Do it or stfu you stoogebag parroting totally full of shet politard crankaloon.
According to your's and your loon parroting crankaloon buddies logic here, we best consider the way we issue drivers licenses and limiting the access to them. More Americans have died the past 60 years from vehicle "accidents' than both gun related and wars combined for that period of time.
And in 2010 alone, combine alcohol and vehicle accidents and the numbers are staggering. BOTH are completely legal and both far less law restrictive than any "legally" owned gun ownership
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:04am PT
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Hey chuff stfu!
More Americans killed by guns since 1968 than in all U.S. wars, columnist Nicholas Kristof writes
By Louis Jacobson on Thursday, August 27th, 2015 at 4:13 p.m.
Union and Confederate soldiers engaged in combat during the attack of the Massachusetts 54th Infantry Regiment on Fort Wagner, South Carolina, July 18, 1863, by Currier & Ives. (Library of Congress)
Beth Hegarty, who was inside Sandy Hook Elementary School the day of the shooting, marches over the Brooklyn bridge during the third annual Brooklyn bridge march and rally to end gun violence on May 9, 2015, in New York City. (AP/Mary Altaffer)
In a column published shortly after the on-air slayings of two TV journalists in southwestern Virginia, the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof offered some "data points" about the pervasiveness of gun violence in the United States.
One of them was: "More Americans have died from guns in the United States since 1968 than on battlefields of all the wars in American history."
That sounded familiar. Really familiar. As it turns out, the web version of Kristof’s column sourced a PolitiFact article from Jan. 18, 2013, that fact-checked commentator Mark Shields’ claim that since 1968, "more Americans have died from gunfire than died in … all the wars of this country's history." (Shields used the year 1968 because it was the year presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated by gunman Sirhan Sirhan.)
We rated the claim True.
Two and a half years later, we wondered whether the statistic still held up, so we took a new look at the data.
Deaths from warfare
We found a comprehensive study of war-related deaths published by the Congressional Research Service on Feb. 26, 2010, and we supplemented that with data for up-to-date deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan using the website icasualties.org. Where possible, we’ve used the broadest definition of "death" — that is, all war-related deaths, not just those that occurred in combat.
The one change we’ve made since our initial fact-check is to revise upward the number of Civil War deaths. As several readers pointed out after we published our earlier fact-check, the CRS report cited 525,000 Union and Confederate dead, but a subsequent study revised that estimate upward to 750,000. The study’s author acknowledged a great deal of uncertainty about the proper figure, and some experts later questioned whether it’s wise to include so many deaths from disease — perhaps two-thirds of the 750,000 figure — since disease in an era of relatively primitive medicine was so widespread that it’s unclear what share of fatal disease during that period was really a result of the war.
Still, we’ll err on the side of the higher estimate and use the 750,000 figure this time.
Here’s a summary of deaths by major conflict:
War
Deaths
Revolutionary War
4,435
War of 1812
2,260
Mexican War
13,283
Civil War (Union and Confederate, estimate)
750,000
Spanish-American War
2,446
World War I
116,516
World War II
405,399
Korean War
36,574
Vietnam War
58,220
Persian Gulf War
383
Afghanistan War
2,363
Iraq War
4,492
Other wars (includes Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia and Haiti)
362
TOTAL
1,396,733
Gunfire deaths
As we did in our previous fact-check, we used a conservative estimate of data from a 1994 paper published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to count gun-related deaths from 1968 to 1980. For 1981 through 2013, we used annual data sets from CDC. Finally, for 2014 and the first eight months of 2015, we estimated that the number of gun-related deaths were equal to the rate during the previous three full years for which we have data — 2011 to 2013.
Here is a summary. The figures below refer to total deaths caused by firearms:
------------------and this just gun deaths from 1968!
Years
Firearm-related deaths
1968 to 1980
377,000
1981 to 1998
620,525
1999 to 2013
464,033
2014
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
33,183
2015
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
22,122
TOTAL, 1968-2015
1,516,863
So the statistic still holds up: There have been 1,516,863 gun-related deaths since 1968, compared to 1,396,733 cumulative war deaths since the American Revolution. That’s 120,130 more gun deaths than war deaths -- about 9 percent more, or nearly four typical years worth of gun deaths. And that’s using the most generous scholarly estimate of Civil War deaths, the biggest component of American war deaths.
We’ll offer some added thoughts for context.
These figures refer to all gunfire-related deaths, not just homicides. In fact, homicides represent a minority of gun deaths, with suicides comprising the biggest share. In 2013, according to CDC data, 63 percent of gun-related deaths were from suicides, 33 percent were from homicides, and roughly 1 percent each were from accidents, legal interventions and undetermined causes.
There’s a risk in using a statistic like this to decry mass homicides carried out with guns. Using total firearm-related deaths makes the case against guns more dramatic than just using homicides alone.
However, in our view, Kristof framed this comparison with care. He mentioned suicides not once but three times in his column, and he referred broadly to the "unrelenting toll of gun violence," not specifically to the toll of gun homicides. Indeed, at one point, Kristof specifically referenced the impact that stricter gun laws can have on gun suicides, writing that in 1996, after a mass shooting in Australia, lawmakers tightened gun laws. "The firearm suicide rate dropped by half in Australia over the next seven years, and the firearm homicide rate was almost halved," according to data published in the Journal of Public Health Policy, Kristof wrote.
Finally, we’ll note that Kristof’s wording differed ever so slightly from the claim by Shields that we checked previously. While Shields said that "more Americans have died from gunfire," Kristof wrote that "more Americans have died from guns." Some may argue that guns don’t kill people, people do. However, that’s a philosophical judgment and beyond our ability to fact-check. Here, we’ll stick to the numbers, and we find they’re on Kristof’s side.
Our ruling
Kristof wrote, "More Americans have died from guns in the United States since 1968 than on battlefields of all the wars in American history."
Even using a significantly higher estimate for Civil War deaths than we did the last time we fact-checked this claim, the comparison still holds up. The number of gun deaths since 1968 — including, as Kristof was careful to note, both homicides and suicides — was higher than war fatalities by roughly 120,000 deaths, or almost four years’ worth of gun deaths in the United States. We rate the claim True.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:10am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Thanks Philco for confirming that you are in FACT a stoogebag parroting totally full of shet politard crankaloon.
Now go roll another one and come up with more... stoogebag parroting totally lib politard crankaloon bullshet.
The least you can do here is maintain some consistency in your proliferation of bullshet, Philco.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Lil chuffie you are the foulest f*#khead on the forum.
I suggest you get your mommy to read my post to you so you won't have to suffer with your usual reading comprehension and cognitive dissonance issues.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:17am PT
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Here's a pretty crazy statistic.... Gun Ownership in Philco's home state is on the increase bigtime.
I got $5 that Philco himself is packing... hypocrite.
Well-armed young women help spike (Colorado) growing gun-ownership numbers
Posted December 2, 2013, 11:50 a.m. by Katharina Buchholz
published in The Boulder Daily Camera on Dec. 1, 2013 and in The Coloradoan on Nov. 24.
By Kendall Brunette
CU News Corps
The Well Armed Woman — their slogan is “Where the Feminine and Firearm Meet” — advertises stylish purses designed for concealed carry.
Another online retailer, Pistols & Pumps — “Concealed and High Heeled” — offers pink camouflage hats and bra-mounted holsters.
Gungoddess.com — the name, apparently, is sufficient — sells a variety of “gun bling,” including leopard-print handgun grips and zebra-print ear protection.
Such items may seem odd to some, but these retailers understand their customer base — a group of young, strong, determined and armed women. And just because their bullets may be fired from pistols with rhinestone-studded grips doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be taken seriously.
These women are among a growing population of gun owners who fiercely fight for their right to own and carry a gun for self-protection.
“A woman with pepper spray is smart, a woman who takes self-defense is prepared, but a woman with a gun is scary,” said Rachael Makowski, a 25-year-old nanny in Westminster, Colo. “And when it comes down to my life or theirs, I want them to be just as afraid of me as I am of them.”
Self-reported gun ownership — among both men and women in the U.S. — is the highest it has been since 1993.
A 2011 Gallup poll found that 47 percent of all Americans claimed to have a gun in their home. Of those Americans, 43 percent of women reported they live with guns in their homes. In February 2013, Gallup reported that 15 percent of all American women personally owned a gun.
In Colorado, the number of FBI background checks for gun purchases over the first 10 months of 2013 — 433,482 — has already eclipsed last year’s total by nearly 20,000.
Hey PHilco... I suggest you start with your local female Coloradoan's before you EVEN suggest going national.
Dumbazz.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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In Colorado, the number of FBI background checks for gun purchases over the first 10 months of 2013 — 433,482 — has already eclipsed last year’s total by nearly 20,000.
Fking Colorado GUN FREAKOIDS.... Philco's neighbors. No wonder he's paranoid.
Nothing like a bunch of stoned gun owners walking around aimlessly with nothing else to do than.... SHOOT!
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Hey Chief. Re your reponse to Bluering:
Oct 10, 2015 - 11:08pm PT
"It's a written test but you have to read up to get a 100% score"
Retired Military with valid/current Retired DOD ID are exempt from taking the written test.
It's damn good you don't need to take a test to get a firearm. With the 3rd grade reading comprehension you've shown on this thread, you'd never pass a written test.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Nice try Fruitz. You're just jealous cus it takes you a whole month or more to study up on your test. Or do you even have a test in Idaho. Nope.
Luckily for you Fruitz. No test.
But, the Federal Gov't/FBI/ATF recognizes the reality that we Retired Vets are well versed on the proper use and ownership of a weapon.
AND, that they are simply a tool and not a piece of identity as you well show your guns are...
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
I Love my guns....
Do you "sleep" with your "guns", Fruitz??? I got $10 states you do. Gotta keep em .... warm!
Another startling Colorado Gun Death statistic...
Gun related deaths are on the rise since 2006 and have over taken motor vehicle deaths...
https://kaiserhealthnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/firearms_deaths_in_co_2004_2011.pdf
Philco loves residing around gun freaks. Loves it....
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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Cool chiefie you've finally acknowledged that guns are killing more people than cars.
Keep working.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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How do you justify using modern electronic means to exercise your First Amendment Right, when at the time the Constitution was written, those white slave owners only had access to a Gutenberg Press to exercise theirs?
Philo's posts should all be written with a feather dipped in ink, and mailed to C-Mac for inclusion here, if he really stands for what says he believes.
Try doing that 100 times a day, if you love the First Amendment that much.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:03am PT
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The U.N. has been run out of multiple places by illiterate cavemen wielding small arms.
The U.N. isn't exactly the I.D.F. you know.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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“You’d need 1,000 DVDs to store all of the genetic information contained in a single teaspoon of fecal matter,”
-Rob Knight, UCSD
Probably need no DVD to store all the mis-information here.
EDIT: er ... the sum of "all the information and misinformation", still results in no DVD.
"I don't like it, but I guess things happen that way"
-Johnny Cash
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 11:39am PT
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Cool chiefie you've finally acknowledged that guns are killing more people than cars.... solely IN Colorado!
FIFY Philco....
Now, work on your Liberal Democratic Governor (John Wright Hickenlooper, Jr.) who is allowing for all this to happen since 2011. And another Democrat Governor before him since 2007. Amazingly that is when this increase starting taking place, btw. Which is also actually consistent with the rest of the Nation where "Gun Violence" is dangerously on the rise. All locations including this Nation, are and have been under Democratic Leadership.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. statistics and facts suck don't they, Philco!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YUP... ZB!
zBrown
Ice climber
Oct 11, 2015 - 10:13am P
Probably need no DVD to store all the mis-information here.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
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INVISIBLE BITING BUGS
The problem is people are not researching the right information. I know because for the last week I was looking up "Invisible Biting bugs or parasites on my skin" and that led me nowhere.
Anyways, after reading what mold spores are, the symptoms are the same exact thing as what I was experiencing. House plants, cold water vaporizers, humidifiers, and dirty air vents can be sources of airborne mold spores, mildews, and bacteria that could cause skin reactions that feel like invisible bugs biting on your skin consistently.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
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BFD!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Who the fk gives a flying ratsass!
I have never been nor do I ever intend to be a member of the NRA. Fact is, most of my Retired Shipmates are in the same "Boat".
Reason: Who the fk wants their name on a public list as to possibly owing any "guns". Dah!
God you people are sooooooooooooooooo fking stooooooooooooooooopid.
Seriously.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 11, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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+1 chief
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Damn Chief. Gotta say, after reading way too many of your comments, you insist others consider your views but you won't consider others' views. Pretty rigid there Chief, and maybe a sign. No one is always right. Open your eyes a bit and understand that you don't know it all; other viewpoints might be valid and, in this case, are.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
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other viewpoints might be valid and, in this case, are.
Says who.. YOU and your, supposed "liberated" opinion??
Sorry, but your post must be directed towards those others here that "insist" I and others follow along with, "their views". Because unlike them, I nor "WE" NEVER insisted on anyone ever considering my/our views.
I just insist on them leaving me and the tens of millions just like me, alone, and respect our views for us.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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You want to be left alone then try shutting your pie hole for a change.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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Pretty weird man. You insist that others respect you but you won't respect others? Can't have it both ways.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
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Whatever. You're nuts.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
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try shutting your pie hole for a change.
LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
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I think I discovered one of the problems here.
Cops Believe North Carolina Inmate Hid 10-Inch Revolver In His Rectum. Luckily, It Was Unloaded.
Maybe becoming an epidemic amongst folks not wanting their gun possession recognized.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/gun-hidden-in-butt-765912
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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Okay Chief, here's a true story. I was in college when the draft lottery was started. I drew a pretty bad number, 69 or something. I was called up in December of 1972 or '73 - I can't really remember and in December of that year, reported to the Mobile. Alabama induction center to be drafted to fight in Vietnam. I was not a happy camper, as the war was sh#t. But I showed up.
My doctor in Huntsville Alabama offered to give me drugs to raise my blood pressure but I didn't understand what he was offering, as I was a stupid kid. I went down to the induction center and went through the mental and physical test. They told me I scored the highest on the IQ test they had ever seen. We were sent to barracks to spend the night and would be sworn in the next day. There were LOTS of redneck boys from the south thinking they were in for some great adventure; I couldn't sleep because they were having so much 'fun' being away from home.
I got up and walked around the base and at about 1:00 am found a stream had eroded under the fence, making an exit from the base. I crawled under the fence, leaving the base, and stood outside. I had two choices, leave for Canada or stay. Going to Canada would mean I wouldn't see my family for years. There was a weird experience where I felt totally at peace and complete. I decided to stay.
I went back into the base and back into the barracks and tried to sleep. The next morning we were rounded up and stood in groups. They called a group into a room and then swore an oath to serve in the Army. I was sitting there, waiting for my name to be called when there was an announcement - "Stephen Hovanes (yes, that's my name; I'm a wine maker) report to Major Henderson in room 211" I went upstairs into the room and there was the Major sitting at the desk.
"Son" he said, "do you want to be in the Army?" WTF? If I said no would they persecute me and f*#k with me for two years? If I said yes, what would happen? I said "No sir, I don't want to be in the Army". "Son, we're sending you home."
WTF? So I asked why he was sending me home. I thought that maybe, just maybe, everyone gets an honest choice at the final moment, but that wasn't what it was. "Son" he said, "we over called the draft for December, you have been eligible this year, so you are no longer eligible for the draft. Do you want to wait for a bus or leave now?"
I left. My point is that there are many nuances to things and you are making things black or white. I was ready to do what I had to, but glad I didn't have to.
Yes, you can own guns, but isn't there a limit, a responsibility to understand that others maybe don't want an armed camp in America?
Life isn't absolutes, so maybe look at other view points.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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I have nothing of import or brilliance to add to this stellar conversation other than a perverse need to be preserved by a Google Bot in case this important topic becomes part of the new Digital World History.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:28pm PT
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others maybe don't want an armed camp in America?
Life isn't absolutes, so maybe look at other view points.
Winemaker, you seem intelligent and thoughtful so far.
What "other points" do you have in mind? For example, is one of those the idea that others "don't want an armed camp in America?" That's what I take from what you're saying, and maybe I'm misreading.
One of the points worth considering is that on the subject of an "armed camp," our constitution doesn't make that a matter of preference. There are MANY things that can be legislated to reflect the preferences of the majority, but the right to have and BEAR arms is not one of them. This IS a pretty "black and white" issue, it seems to me.
So, perhaps I don't understand what you are including by implication in the phrase "armed camp."
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
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"Well regulated militia" pops to mind.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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Winemaker
I got drafted the same time you did ... lol.
I hitch hiked from Yosemite to Berserkly Induction center.
Went thru the whole deal and got a 1Y.
They said I can't hear worth the sh!t and go home.
I said I could work artillery.
They laughed and said goodbye ......
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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Armed camp as in your proposal for American schools Madbolt.
Why don't we eliminate schools altogether and just send kids straight to prison camps?
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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So, perhaps I don't understand what you are including by implication in the phrase "armed camp."
Good Point MB1.
Yes, you can own guns, but isn't there a limit, a responsibility to understand that others maybe don't want an armed camp in America?
FYI, This nation has been "armed" for well over 275 years. And the people have voted to keep it that way throughout that period. This is a country of the people and their vote. Thus the majority rule.
The people set the limit you refer to. Not the POTUS for political purposes. Until the people vote to change the 2nd Amendment, NOT the POTUS via a stroke of his pen, then it should be done.
And until the day comes that the "others" you refer to have the votes to do so, it will remain as such.
That is how this country rolls and has done so since it's inception. That is what makes this nation different than all the rest on this planet.
Apparently you "others" here do not get that very vital part.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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"Well regulated militia" pops to mind.
Do you understand what the phrase means?
Do you understand that it occupies the antecedent position in a conditional, which means that even if it were false, it has no effect on the consequent of that conditional, namely the part that says "shall not be infringed?"
Do you understand that that amendment does not GRANT a right but merely references a pre-existing right that government can neither grant nor take away?
Let's start with those clarification questions.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
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"Well regulated militia"
With over 1500 Fed, State and Local Laws and Regulations, and over 330 MILLION legally owned and registered "guns" in this nation, I firmly believe that the "militia" is pretty "well regulated".
Again, if you Winemaker and the "others" here do not like it, then start changing the way things work in your "local" "camps" by getting the changes in the regulations and laws on the local ballot and then vote to do so.
Take action that is real. Do not come onto some climbing social site and talk/whine tons of shet such as individuals as LOcker and Fuitz who certainly own and "love" their guns more than I do.... do!
EDIT:
WINEMAKER,
How do you propose cleaning up all the multitude (unknown millions) of illegal guns that are all over this nation?
Not one of you "others" has yet to present a viable solution for that critical component of this issue.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
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"Well regulated" means exactly and precisely "well trained."
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
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CRANKALOONSTAR:
How do you propose cleaning up all the multitude (unknown millions) of illegal guns that are all over this nation?
Not one of you "others" has yet to present a viable solution for that critical component of this issue.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
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Take a pill, El Jefe. I'm not debating you on account of your condition.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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Not one of you "others" has yet to present a viable solution for that critical component of this issue.
The chief makes a quite simple error here. His statement assumes that he is THE authority on what will work and what will not work. Until HE is satisfied HE is content with the continuing slaughter. The reality is answers to complex social problems do not come in a simple blinding flash. They evolve as ancilliary circumstances also adapt.
The question is, what is the approach that seems to have the most promise.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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continuing slaughter
In a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, that's pretty hyperbolic, I think.
I'm curious what the death toll would have to be "down to" in order for you to not call it a "continuing slaughter."
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Fair question mad. You raised the question so I must have violated your definition for slaughter. Let's hear it. What percentage of school shooting deaths per year, in your opinion, would qualify as "continuing slaughter".
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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Okay Chief, then tell me how we deal with "Not one of you "others" has yet to present a viable solution for that critical component of this issue." Any ideas? I'd like to hear them. At least you acknowledge there is a "critical component" to this issue.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:08pm PT
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Why don't you go first.
Two reasons:
1) You are the one making a claim with very loaded language. So, I'm curious what YOU take to justify that language.
2) There is no "percentage" that is a clear, bright line, as you well know. The problem is one of perception and priorities. Children are being "continually slaughtered" by cigarettes, cars, preventable accidents, childhood obesity, and a host of other causes. You don't think of THOSE as a "slaughter," but I do, and there's a LOT more of it going on.
Your "side" tries to frame the argument such that you win by the casting of the language itself. That's what I'm calling you on.
If I say, "Let's get the 'slaughter' in perspective in the grand scheme of things," your "side" always responds, "Heartless bastard," or words to that effect.
If I say, "Let's get clear about the actual causal connections rather than to pass knee-jerk laws that we ALL recognize have no direct connection to these school shootings," your "side" always responds, "Doing SOMETHING that even MIGHT have a positive effect, however small, is worth 'trying.'" And I simply disagree.
In short, you DO use loaded language to try to ramp up the "urgency" to "DO SOMETHING," when neither you nor anybody else knows WHAT to do to stop or even significantly reduce these school shootings. And, if you are honest, then you'll admit that background checks, etc. are unrelated to these incidents.
So, reasonable people like me can be forgiven (and not called or implied to be a "heartless bastard") if we remain unconvinced that doing SOMETHING is the right course of action, when that "something" is obviously unrelated to the problem at hand.
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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Didn't you want to put armed soldiers in every school as your "solution"
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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OK. So we know you don't consider the shootings to pose an "urgent" question. You are happy to do nothing. That is all I was asking.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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Didn't you want to put armed soldiers in every school?
It WORKS in Riverside and San Bernardino, in the heart of gangland violence.
If you CARE (as you claim to) to actually protect the kids, then do what has been demonstrated to WORK.
It sure looks to me like your side isn't about actually solving the problem. Instead you want to USE the problem to pander to a particular agenda.
I DO care about the kids, so I'd like to get serious about alternatives that HAVE actually been demonstrated to work!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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You are happy to do nothing.
That's exactly the sort of BS claim I was talking about, and it seriously hurts your credibility to so TOTALLY and intentionally cast my response as THAT.
I most certainly DO care! But I (unlike your "side," apparently) care to do something that HAS been demonstrated to WORK rather than blind groping at "solutions" that clearly have NOTHING to do with the problem!
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
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So mad bolt I've asked this twice and you haven't answered. Perhaps 3rd time will be the charm.
Do you have kids?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
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It WORKS in Riverside and San Bernardino, in the heart of gangland violence.
I could not find any links supporting the above claim. Would you be so kind as to cite your sources of information?
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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Wow, Madbolter, do you not think there is a problem? Do you have any suggestions to resolve this problem? Are things just honky dory? Aren't you getting a bit concerned for your children in school? This is bullsh#t. No where else in the civilized world do parents have to worry about their children getting killed in school. I was born in New Zealand and I have to tell you that America looks like it is f*#king insane. Really. WTF. Jesus Christ, get a grip. This is getting really f*#king stupid. Is this the wild west? Even in the wild west there were gun laws.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
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No where else in the civilized world do parents have to worry about their children getting killed in school.
How about we start with Canada, Germany, Finland, Israel, Pakistan, Kenya, Azerbaijan, Sweden and, China!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
I was born in New Zealand and I have to tell you that America looks like it is f*#king insane
When did you arrive in the US and become a citizen?
His statement assumes that he is THE authority on what will work and what will not work
No. My statement states absolutely nothing of the sorts. I am not the one on here stating that the issue needs immediate drastic attention. You people are and not one of you has presented anything that is a viable realistic solution to do so. Not one.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:43pm PT
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I could not find any links supporting the above claim. Would you be so kind as to cite your sources of information?
Sure. My mom taught at a gang-infested high school in San Bernardino for a decade. Prior to the installation of metal detectors and armed guards, there were weekly shootings and knifings. After installing metal detectors at all entrances and roaming armed guards, there were NO more shootings and only the occasional shankings (with non-metal objects). Continual violence was dramatically reduced.
I saw the same result first-hand at my high school in Riverside, also gang-infested.
You can say, "Ohhh... anecdotal," but I'll respond: "First hand observations," which are FAR better than vague theory about how background checks are going to accomplish ANYTHING, when we already know that these recent incidents would not have been affected by any such legislation.
EDIT: Furthermore, perhaps YOU can explain why national figures (and their families) ARE protected by ARMED guards rather than just LEGISLATING specific laws like, "Thou shalt not try to shoot the President." Oh, wait, there already ARE such laws, just like there already ARE such laws as, "Thou shalt not try to shoot a bunch of helpless kids."
Soooooo, because the nut jobs and sick puppies don't abide by the LAWS, people that CARE to protect themselves and their families GO ARMED!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
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WTF. Jesus Christ, get a grip. This is getting really f*#king stupid. Is this the wild west? Even in the wild west there were gun laws.
I'm not the one calling hundreds of deaths out of 1/3 of a billion people a "continual slaughter." YOU get a grip.
So, TELL me, EXACTLY how would universal background checks have kept any of these school shootings from happening?
I'm supposedly soooooo bad because I have no interest in the passage of additional non-causally-connect legislation. So, perhaps YOU can be so GOOD as to tell me the causal connections!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
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Tax the hell out of ammo and guns...Make it so that only the wealthy can own guns..this might help keep weapons out of the hands of lower class white trash that think guns are the solution to every situation...Let the whining commence...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Okay Chief, then tell me how we deal with "Not one of you "others" has yet to present a viable solution for that critical component of this issue." Any ideas?
No... I asked you to propose a viable solution that YOU all seem to have the answers to but have yet to present any as of yet.
So, by all means Winemaker, give it a go.
--> How do you propose acquiring all the millions of illegal weapons that proliferate this nation and most certainly play a major role in the gun violence that you all want an end to asap?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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Chief, the "answer" is always the same: "We don't have the answers to such questions, but SOMEBODY has GOT to do SOMETHING! At least WE CARE and are TRYING to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to end the SLAUGHTER! You gun-nuts are heartless bastards that just don't care to DO SOMETHING."
When you try to pin them down about what the SOMETHING they propose ACTUALLY can do, it quickly turns to crickets, followed by more name-calling.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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Yo Chief Dood,
I asked you to propose a viable solution that YOU all seem to have the answers to but have yet to present any as of yet.
The Australian buy-back worked wonders down under...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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It's not that your soooo bad it's more like your sooooo profoundly wrong. The obsession here with guns that have no other function than to kill other humans sickens me. You pontificating blowhards who have no real experience with such weapons except what you read in comic books should STFU!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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You Own MORE guns than I ever would LOcker. And DON'T even try stating that you don't.
Just as Fruitz has indicated, certainly appears that you too, "Love" your guns dearly.
So I suggest you stfu and move along as you are the last person on this website that has any place calling anyone a ...
Nutcase
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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We could call it the US reach-around...rj
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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Locker...go fishing, don't try to reason with people who have gone around the bend with their mindless obsessions. Let them stew in their anger and angst, they're dinosaurs who still think the comet was fireworks meant to entertain them.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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So we have MAD's opinion that the presence of military people in schools "works." This has been a big problem for some time but no one has thought to look at it seriously? Really? MAD, you and your mother need to study the data and report.
No studies on this? Hard to believe. I'll try some more to find them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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It's not that your soooo bad it's more like your sooooo profoundly wrong.
You claiming it doesn't make it so. Demonstrate it, and you'll find me to agree. I am intellectually honest about these things.
The obsession here with guns that have no other function than to kill other humans sickens me.
More loaded language. I know of nobody that is "obsessed."
Furthermore, it is FACT that guns are built to kill other people. No question about it. And that can be a GOOD as well as a BAD thing, depending upon circumstances and human target.
Does it "sicken" you when guns are used to protect elected officials and THEIR families?
Does it "sicken" you when guns are used to defend this nation against enemies?
Does it "sicken" you when guns are used to END a kid-killing incident?
No, you ONLY find guns "sickening" when the average person wants to have the ability to defend him/herself in EXACTLY the same way as politicians, celebrities, and others who HIRE their gunmen to protect them.
We ALL are entitled to self-defense, not just the rich and famous. What is "sickening" about that???
You pontificating blowhards who have no real experience with such weapons except what you read in comic books should STFU!
I have NO idea who you are referencing.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
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No studies on this? Hard to believe. I'll try some more to find them.
While you're at it, please look into the studies related to the correlation between the supposed lack of background checks and these school-shooting incidents. TELL me how background checks would have stopped ANY of them. SHOW any statistical correlation between the most-touted supposedly missing law and these school-shooting incidents.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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Jesus, please get some balls will you and demand your god given rights!
By definition, your gun rights arguments must demand the immediate legalization of fully automatic weapons and RPG's!
RPG's don't kill people, people kill people...
If the intended use of a gun is to protect the innocent, then demand a fuking bazooka!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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WARNING! Impending head explosion as logic enters gun rights supporter's mind and encounters empty vacuum...
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philo
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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Hey chief you owe me $5 for losing your dumbshet bet.
I think you should donate it to
Not one more or Everytown for gun safety.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
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RPG's don't kill people, people kill people...
If the intended use of a gun is to protect the innocent, then demand a fuking bazooka!
Utterly lame argument, and I've responded to it repeatedly in past threads.
The right of self-defense implies the right to the weaponry by which to defend yourself against likely threats to your individual person.
In the USA, there is no real threat against my individual person by RPG-wielding thugs. No, instead, it's gun-wielding thugs. So, I carry a gun. If the USA ever gets to the point that RPGs are a real and individual threat, then I'll have to rethink. But for now, a handgun suffices.
The idea that gun-ownership implies a slippery slope to, say, NUKES, is just a complete confusion of what the right of self-defense implies.
WARNING! Impending head explosion as logic enters gun rights supporter's mind and encounters empty vacuum...
Or not.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 11, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
Time to take a HIT of Federally illegal marijuana...
Something many Republicans also do..
NOT those that are confessed recovering addicts/alcoholics.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/put-armed-police-officers-in-every-school-nra-head-says/2012/12/21/9ac7d4ae-4b8b-11e2-9a42-d1ce6d0ed278_story.html
Put armed police in every school, NRA urges
By David Nakamura and Tom Hamburger December 21, 2012 Follow @davidnakamura Follow @thamburger
The National Rifle Association on Friday called for armed police officers at every school in the nation, offering a defiant challenge to President Obama’s push for stricter gun control laws and potentially setting up a fierce legislative battle early next year.
OK. The word “military” apparently resulted in no hits. MAD may have added the angle of using military personnel. Using police is the NRA proposal we all had heard about but I have yet to find any supporting experience such as MAD mentions. NRA did not present any data. Pretty much a hail Mary proposal. Still trying.
If we look at the experience around the world, should we somehow make guns an ineffective way of killing, we should be ready to deal with suicide bombers in the US. Many of the mass killers have seemed to be suicide bound so the transition will be straight forward.
There is at least a seeming correlation as regards use of drugs, often to control known mental health problems. I should think this data has been gathered somewhere.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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From 1996 to 2011, 60 school shootings have occurred with hundreds of casualties.
That occurs every weekend in the Inner Cities across this nation and not one peep from any of you. 90% or greater of those hundreds per weekend are done with illegal weapons that are immune to the 1500 or so Fed, State and Local gun laws. Most occur in the strictest gun controlled zones in this nation.
Not a peep from any of you, the DEM Mayors of those cities nor the Dem POTUS of this nation.
WHY?
Why just the media perpetuated "School shootings"?
I'll tell you all why. Because most are conducted with weapons that you nor anyone can control. Not one. And they are in the hands of criminals that too are uncontrollable and do not give a fk about any laws. Not a one.
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John M
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:47pm PT
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I don't see any answers or discussion from you either Chief..
I don't have answers. Thats why I was hoping for a discussion. Not this sh#t show.. A discussion can help generate ideas and help get past poor ideas, or improve them. But this thread has rarely reached that. Yelling people down doesn't work because this is a nationwide problem and someone's going to propose a law at some point. If people are just pissed off and there is no reasonable discussion of it, then some day you might find that that law has passed and it might be one you don't like.
I'm sure that you have an answer for that too. Its probably that you will just ignore that law.
And by the way Chief.. I have tried to get Philo and others to dial it back. Just because I am a liberal doesn't mean I agree with what every liberal does.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
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Less Violence MOOSE???
Where?
Do I need to post the over 2200 inner city deaths so far this year in six DEM Mayor'd cities that can be attributed to illegal guns, MOOSE.
But then that don't count. Right MOOSEDROOL. Those Kids don't matter. They don't matter because they DO NOT meet the agenda.
I don't see any answers or discussion from you either Chief..
I don't have answers. Thats why I was hoping for a discussion. Not this sh#t show..
The shet show of no answers. Just more "School Shootings" shet from your side John M. And not one peep of ALL the illegal weapon shootings/killings that go on day after day throughout the inner cities of this nation. Most led by Democratic Mayors. Most having the strictest gun controls on this planet.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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It looks to me like disarming the kids worked, no?
Less guns = less violence.
Absolutely!
And if you can dream up a way within the rights expressed in our founding documents to disarm America, then you will definitely be onto something.
Otherwise, we have real-world constraints that include horrific human nature (that must be defended against).
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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It looks to me like disarming the kids ....
MOOSEDROOL... How do you disarm all the tens of thousands of criminals that roam the streets shooting up their neighborhoods every night throughout this nation?
HOW?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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John M
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Werner, Answers have to deal with the current level of wisdom. They should included increasing wisdom, but in the meantime, one has to deal with what is. Currently Americans are violent people who use guns for answers. That isn't going to change overnight. I don't want a prison state either. But something needs to be done.
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John M
climber
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
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Chief, I have never been for disarming everyone. Of course the good guys have to have guns because we are still a violent people.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
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No answer MOOSE other than it's "time to move on".
What frking fantasy land do you live in MOOSE?? Tell these people that "It's time to move on" ....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Just another loon that lives in loon la la land... Moosedrool.
And ALL the guns used in the above shootings/murders were illegal and not one gun control law or regulation currently on the books prevented any of them from occurring. Not a one.
Why is that MOOSEDROOL?
But something needs to be done.
What?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
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The "founding documents" are just some 300 years old ideas. Maybe it's time to move on?
It's seriously SCARY to me how many people presently float this idea.
Is the right to life just some quaint, 300-year-old idea?
If not, then the right of self-defense is also not a quaint, old idea.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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The Chief, many countries had to deal with a similar problem at some point. Maybe we can learn from them? Australia comes to mind.
You're kidding right Moosedrool. You are now going to compare Australia with the inner city gun violence that occurs in this nation every single day.
How do you propose rounding up the millions of illegal guns from the 100's of thousands of street thugs?
You are one of the many here that state the Cops in America have too much power as it is. SO... who do you propose will do do all the arms confiscations from all those thugs, MOOSEDROOL?
many countries had to deal with a similar problem at some point.
Name a few "countries" that even come close to the situations I showed in the videos I posted and how they took care of the issue, MOOSEDROOL!
BURCH...
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSH! That is considered racial profiling.
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 11, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
"Time to take a HIT of Federally illegal marijuana...
Something many Republicans also do.."
"NOT those that are confessed recovering addicts/alcoholics."...
Could you possibly be a bigger idiot???...
I don't make that claim...
I only claim not to drink alcohol (Accept at Blitzo's memorial) or do the heavy SHET anymore...
Odd LOcker... I never stated that you were a Recovering Republican addict/alcoholic.
But you do own lots of guns and are on a gun control thread as an advocate for more gun restrictions.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 11, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
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locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 11, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
Don't sell guns to people with PTSD...
Nor Don't sell guns to people with a long history of illegal drug addiction. Absolutely NO guarantee that they will remain clean.
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 11, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
I don't make that claim...
I only claim not to drink alcohol (Accept at Blitzo's memorial) or do the heavy SHET anymore...
EDITED:
Been 16 plus years...
Somewhere in there...
I forget...
I just took a HIT...
Happy Tokes there LOcker. Don't let that "hard shet" and your guns come back and haunt you .... You know, all them years of your professionally counseling others to stay away and stay clean and all, regardless the how little amount the "shet" may be.
Goes along with Fruitz and his confessed dear love for his guns and Norton letting us all know that he's packing 24/7.
As well as this wonderful tid bit of, Hypocrisy...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/13/us-saudi-arabia-arms-deal
BTW: Over $12.4 Billion of that was in lots and lots of GUNS and AMMO from all them guns and ammo manufacturers you all disdain so badly! Much of which was certainly used just recently in Yemen and killed an untold amount of humans in a two-three month period.
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 05:24am PT
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Don't sell guns to people with PTSD...
Nor Don't sell guns to people with a long history of illegal drug addiction. Absolutely NO guarantee that they will remain clean.
Well no wonder you oppose any new regulations.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 12, 2015 - 05:27am PT
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Isn't it kind of lame to spend a Sunday night arguing with a bunch of strangers online when you could be watching a movie or doing something else meaningful with your wives/girlfriends/etc?
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 05:54am PT
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Well you are here.
Why? If its so annoying and a stupid waste of time why do you engage in the thread?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:03am PT
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Nice burn, philo. You are the mac daddy of trash talk... clearly, the baddest motherf*#ker on this forum. No doubt, you could hold your own in the toughest junior high locker room. Keep doing what you do. Bringing the smack. It's invaluable.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:09am PT
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Thank you GLillegard for the Aljazeera and Post articles.I had not seen them. I'd like to argue a hypothesis.
Humans prefer easy answers. After the start of Islam a disagreement arose as to who was the true leader of the faith. People took the easy route and started killing each other. It was not so easy it turns out. Sunni and Shia are still killing each other a millennium later. When sick we pop pills. When teens can no longer stand their life they end it. When society has a problem we expect a magic solution, with no increase in taxes. Guns are a particularly attractive easy solution. An adversary is killed with a simple squeeze of the fore finger. It is so easy you can feel the gun did it not you. Rather like dropping bombs. No psychological stress and no consequences. If we had just used the trillions spent on the Iraq War to buy the oil itself, drowning would have been our major problem. We have given up on the idea politics are an easy answer. So we don't do politics any more.To see that just look at Congress.
What to do? Simple. Pick a problem and look for a difficult answer. Ought to be natural for climbers.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:35am PT
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Problem ---> Solution only works for simple systems.
Machines mostly, and even then root-cause analysis can be extremely complex. When confronted with something as intricate as the human mind and a network of human minds all smashed together the complexity rises to near infinite levels. This is especially true when all we have to analyze the problem is.... a human mind.
All the more reason the machines we are building now will eventually recognize us as the threat and act accordingly.
But before SkyNet becomes self-aware, we can get some climbing in.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:09am PT
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Isn't it kind of lame to spend a Sunday night arguing with a bunch of strangers online when you could be watching a movie or doing something else meaningful with your wives/girlfriends/etc?
oh snap!
This is what grumpy old trads do when the ol wee-wee ain't like it used to be.
Interweb squabbling gets the testosterone raised.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:14am PT
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I am all for that "doing something else" part.
This thread caught like a California wildfire, incredible and beyond the pale.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:35am PT
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Solutions John M and Winemaker?
Here's some of mine and some are currently already on the books but NOT applied.
You can start with and add the following:
1. Take ALL federal funding away from any city that practices the "Sanctuary City" philosophy and enables known felon illegals. Many of which are allowed back on the streets to re-offend in a heinous violent manner and many utilize an illegal gun in the process.
2. NO plea bargains allowed if any kind of weapon is used in that commission of crime.
3. A Mandatory 5 year Federal Sentence with NO parole if you are caught with an illegally acquired gun.
4. A Mandatory 10 year Federal Sentence with NO parole if you use a gun in the commission of a crime. That will be added to the sentence for the crime/s that one committed. iF the weapon is found to be an illegal one, add the 5 Year Sentence to that.
5. A Mandatory 10 year Federal Sentence with NO parole if you are caught selling any weapon outside of current FFL etc regulations and laws. IF that weapon is found to be an illegal one, add the 5 Year Sentence to that.
** None of the above have an age limitation on them either.
There's about 200 more already on the books just as the above but that should do for now!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:05am PT
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I think a solution requires more than just jail time. Most of the nutjobs doing these shootings kill themselves anyway, so jail won't help much. Maybe require liability insurance of gun owners? Mandatory gun safes? Will think on this, but must make wine now. Two more days of harvesting and all the grapes are picked!
And Chief, I'm a 'natural born citizen' just like your buddy Ted Cruz; my father was a Yank & I have two passports. Sure makes it easy to come and go.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:19am PT
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I think a solution requires more than just jail time. Most of the nutjobs doing these shootings kill themselves anyway...
What??
There were 22 shootings in South Chicago over this past weekend with 8 fatalities.
There were 29 shootings in St. Louis this past weekend with 5 fatalities.
There were 19 shootings in New Orleans that past weekend with 7 fatalities.
There were 21 shootings in So Miami this past weekend with 4 fatalities.
On and On and On and.....
ALL the above were gang/drug related.
I guess ALL those that occur daily on the streets of this nation, DON'T matter.
Maybe require liability insurance of gun owners? Mandatory gun safes?
Yup.. these "gun owners" will certainly oblige so willingly...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:28am PT
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24 deaths in 131 shootings. That doesn't even compare to a single school shooting where one heavily armed parasite can take down that many in a single episode.
Do the math. Or have mommy do it for you.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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awww, chief posting non-whities with guns
so cute!
difference: gangs shoot up each other, not schools
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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^ that photo isnt gay. at. all.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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I think South Carolina is where they found the guy with the gun in his ass.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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The Chief....You still tail- gating them Raider games..? rj
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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Chiefie you are such a duplicitous twit. You don't give a damn about black on black crime, gang land violence or for that matter Chicago.
You just trot out the tropes to defend your fear induced gun fetish.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Oct 12, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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And ALL the guns used in the above shootings/murders were illegal and not one gun control law or regulation currently on the books prevented any of them from occurring. Not a one.
There is no way in hell that you know that.
Then you later post this which is in contrast to your above post.
Here's some of mine and some are currently already on the books but NOT applied............
**There's about 200 more already on the books just as the above but that should do for now!
It makes it hard to have a meaningful dialog when you say one thing one time and contradict it the next.
I'm all for having the laws we have on the books enforced to the max. It would be a start and it may, in time, slow down some gun related crimes when people see how thoroughly and tough the laws are enforced.
Edit, cheif, can you downsize that big pic above. Sure would make the thread easier to read thru.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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Chiefie you are such a duplicitous twit. You don't give a damn about black on black crime, gang land violence or for that matter Chicago.
You just trot out the tropes to defend your fear induced gun fetish.
Philo, how is it duplitious (you miss-spelled the word I think in you post) for the Chief to call out gang gun violence?
Chicago, DC, and Baltimore are riddled everyday with innocent people being killed. Where's the outrage there against primarily black violence? And the Latino violence is everywhere because of gang violence.
It's a cultural problem, a behavioral problem. Not a gun problem.
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
It actually felt good to hit delete.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:55am PT
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Guns will always be here for people like Locker and myself, because of the 2nd Amendment.
Knee-jerk reactions to random violence is just news-food. Is there any prayer-vigils media coverage for the little girl killed in her bed while sleeping last weekend in awesome Chicago?
People are stupid.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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Good entertainment Chief y Locker, but don't quit your day jobs:
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Chief why did you take down the pic of the, I assume,(I know...)H.A. guys? Because the super right Papa Charlie said it was gay? NTTIAWWT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 12, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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How old are you again, LOcker? Are you back on the "heavy shet"??
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 11, 2015 - 10:31pm PT
I don't make that claim...
I only claim not to drink alcohol or do the heavy SHET anymore...
Your recent behavior on this thread surely is NOT that of a sober or "Mentally" well individual. Let alone one of someone that is your age.
Seriously.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 12, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Your recent behavior on this thread surely is NOT that of "Mentally" well individual.
Seriously.
Irony defined.
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Hey chief you owe me $5 for losing your dumbshet bet.
I think you should donate it to
Not one more or Everytown for gun safety.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 12, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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Which $5 bet was that Philco?
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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No tatertard the stupid bet was your assertion that I'm a gun owner.
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philo
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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Don't need a gun to deal with frightened Pissants like TaterTard.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 12, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
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waiting for this thread to get deleted, self destruct or die. lets move on.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
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Yeah, this one is destined for the freezer.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Oct 13, 2015 - 02:38am PT
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Bump for a great thread.
Because who doesn't like to watch locker have a world class meltdown....
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 05:12am PT
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I don't see it as a meltdown. More of an I'm sick of this twits "shet".
But you all love to equate passionate defense as a meltdown. Who when caught shet handed screams nuh uh not me.
Chuffles is like the sociopathic neighbor kid that keeps ringing doorbells and running away having left burning shitbags on doorsteps. He is as useful as teats on a boar hog.
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 05:38am PT
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Collects disability, gets free Obamacare that controls his diabetes, gets food stamps and heating assistance, receives section 8 that pays his trailer park rent, and has a designated handicap spot for his car outside his trailer but "He will vote Republican because he wants his country back"!
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Oct 13, 2015 - 05:38am PT
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Passionate defense?
Yesterday, Locker made 20+ posts in this thread. They were little more than "Am not! You are!"
What do you think he was passionately defending?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 13, 2015 - 06:12am PT
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Passion that my 5 year old can laugh at. So thanks!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 13, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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What do you think he was passionately defending?.... Passion that my 5 year old can laugh at.
Yup.
Just about sums up this entire thread/issue and the insanity of it's totally whacked liberal basis.
It's good to know how I have crept into and live inside your head, LOcker. And the heads of several others here.
You all are so fking stooooooooooopid and full of passion, you don't even realize who the true winner is.
Carry on... LOcker, etal.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 07:10am PT
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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the inability to let it go and not get the last word is a trait of APD
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 13, 2015 - 10:03am PT
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so many deletings...
think of the children!!!!!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 13, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
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I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
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As I said, "napalm."
LOL
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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He's with his therapist.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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Does it still smell as GUD???
Oh, you know it! Morning, noon, or night.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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The dude is the most negative and hostile person on this forum...
do you need a shoulder to cry on...
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Sounds like an EMERGENCY...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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Similar to glue fumes I suppose...
I can relate!!!...
Ahhhh... my eyes are rolling up back into my head.
OooooUhhhhhh....
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Oct 13, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 13, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
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Sadly, TGT, few are going to read that through, and its scholarly rigor will leave many cold, as it is not scintillating reading. However, it is very systematically researched and appeals to some very rigorous studies.
Thank you for contributing that article!
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Norton
Social climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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[quote]Even Haaahvad thinks the hand wringers are wrong.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf[/quote]
skimmed through the article and read the conclusion
inconclusive..no clear evidence that people will or will not commit suicide based on the easy availability of firearms where they live, which makes sense as there is
no control group of the same individuals having or not having guns to compare
bottom line, people find many ways to kills themselves, throughout history
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 13, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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Progs always disparage the source when they can't refute the facts.
It's a long involved read.
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Norton
Social climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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TGT,
I certainly did NOT disparage the Harvard source, show where I did. You can't
are you ever, ever, right about anything?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 13, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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Locker! He's got a Syndrome & it's not fair to pick on him about how un-tall he is, since he's "height-challenged."
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15851/1/Short-Man-Syndrome-Explained.html
Short Man Syndrome Explained
By Stanley C Loewen | Psychology |
'Short man syndrome' is a condition in which a person has to deal with a feeling of inadequacy which can come from a lack of height – or a perceived lack of height. This is particularly common in men who gain a lot of confidence and status from physicality and who often gain pleasure from being able to feel physically imposing.
Short man syndrome is an informal term and not a medical or psychological condition and goes by other names such as 'Napoleon complex'. Technically it is a form of inferiority complex in which the person attempts to overcompensate for their perceived shortcoming. The term is often used as a derogatory term also to describe those who are perceived as acting this way. - - - -
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 13, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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Gun Culture:
Just as the NRA’s focus has shifted over time from its start as an organization focused on training and marksmanship to one that is a major player in the battle over gun control, the reasons why Americans own guns also have changed. About half (48%) of gun owners said the main reason they owned a gun was for protection, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted in February 2013. This compares to 26% in Aug 1999.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/24/5-facts-about-the-nra-and-guns-in-america/
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philo
climber
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Oct 13, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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The NRA bought and paid for Republican congressman just quietly voted to maintain the ban on CDC research into gun violence in America.
Not
Relevant
Anymore
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 13, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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It's ALL Bush's and NRA's fault. All of it. None of them shootings since 1850 would have ever taken place had either been around. Not one.
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 13, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
The dude is the most negative and hostile person on this forum...
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 13, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Hi everyone!!!
and here I thought ....
And 22 post yesterday..... all directed towards me. So as I see it LOcker, it takes you well over 2 or so hours to do all that photography manipulation etc so that equates to well over 4-6 hours there. Then posting on the computer for over 10 hours or so yesterday and then add an additional 10 hours over the past week.
So, you have spent 20-24 hours of your life dedicated to thinking about me the past week or so.
Then there's Compton, Philco and Fruitz and their numerous posts that were directed and dedicated towards me.
Thanks LOcker, Philco, Compton and Fuitz for allowing me to inhabit your, skulls. I am so honored.
Go figure....
Carry on with the Hysteria. It gets funnier as each day passes, seriously.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 13, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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It's always interesting to see how many of our WWII Vet fathers never talked about their war experiences around their children.
In 1943 my father was in his late 20’s, deaf in one ear, had a 2 year old child, & was working in agriculture, providing food for our armies.
He was drafted late in 1943, & got to invade Okinawa in April 1945 with the Army. All I ever heard about his war-wound was from my mother, who said a close miss from a shell-burst still got him in the back. He received a small disability check every month.
I grew up in the ski-resort town of Ketchum/Sun Valley Idaho, & my parents had several close friends who were in the 10th Mountain Division. When we had family get-togethers & big drinking parties for the adults, I never heard a war story.
I never really thought about why none of these folks shared their war-stories.
Maybe, it was just too hard, or too bitter, or in the 1950’s WWII was too recent to talk about?
But, The Chief has "Little Man Syndrome" & needs to post his war stories, along with a bunch of very negative schit about others who post, to prove he really is "a significant doode."
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15851/1/Short-Man-Syndrome-Explained.html
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 13, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
But, The Chief needs to post his war stories, ...
Now, do POST anything of the sorts.. you know, all them supposed "war stories" I have posted.
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 13, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
....along with a bunch of very negative schit about others
Are ALL them guns of yours that you "love" so dearly, "FRITZ", keeping you warm tonight?
Oh, and are they all gathered together along with that NRA Lifetime MBR card of yours.
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 6, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
I Love my guns....
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 13, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
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NRA will step in to fund appeals, of course.
Don't think so. Not in this case.
Badger Guns was also previously called Badger Outdoors, and at times was the No. 1 seller of firearms used in crimes in the U.S. — moving 537 guns that were recovered from crime scenes in 2005 alone, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Norberg and Kunisch weren't the only members of the police force injured by a gun bought at Badger: Between 2007 and 2009, six Milwaukee cops were hurt by guns sold by Badger Guns or Badger Outdoors, according to the suit.
This case against them will only assure that they lose their Federal License and ultimately be shut down by ATF. The NRA isn't going to help defend any "Cop" shooters.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 02:23am PT
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Not such a good day to be an arms merchant, I suppose.
It depends on the scale, I supposed.
At that scale of arms-dealing that the USA itself engages in, the "moral" lines become non-existent. Yet, like the "merchant of death" small shop, the USA sells weapons to anybody.
The morality of the thing, you know, the death-dealing, only comes into play on smaller scales.
The greatest "evil" of the small shop was in its being, well, small. It just couldn't manage to conduct its business on an international scale. On an international scale, all of the "morality" discussed on this thread evaporates.
Or perhaps this administration could hold itself to the same moral standard to which it holds everybody else.
Novel thought!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 14, 2015 - 06:59am PT
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Then there's Compton, Philco and Fruitz and their numerous posts that were directed and dedicated towards me.
Thanks LOcker, Philco, Compton and Fuitz for allowing me to inhabit your, skulls. I am so honored.
Definition Of Narcissism
By Mayo Clinic Staff
Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. You may be generally unhappy and disappointed when you're not given the special favors or admiration you believe you deserve. Others may not enjoy being around you, and you may find your relationships unfulfilling.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Our evil empire just dropped 50 tons of small arms via parachutes into the Hell that is now Syria "hoping" the 'right' rebels will find it.
Real "assault weapons" too, grenades, rpg's, etc...
So when our regime speaks of wanting to stop the violence here, I've just got to laugh.
Wedge issues, they really don't care.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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COMPTON! Thanks for reaffirming that I live in your head. Nothing to add to this discussion other than ANOTHER post solely about... "The Chief".
Exactly ..... FEAR!
Over $12.4 Billion of the $60 BILLION arms deal below was in lots and lots of GUNS and AMMO from all them guns and ammo manufacturers you all disdain so badly! Much of which was certainly used just recently in Yemen and killed an untold amount of "INNOCENT" humans in a two-three month period.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/13/us-saudi-arabia-arms-deal
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:11am PT
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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Had this Combat Veteran been "Armed" and allowed to carry openly on campus, the latest tragic incident would have over as quickly as it began.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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COMPTON! Thanks for reaffirming that I live in your head. Nothing to add to this discussion other than ANOTHER post solely about... "The Chief".
Exactly ..... FEAR!
This isn't a 'discussion'. It is a narcissistic potato squashing dissent with Faux news sounds bites. Kinda like Rush Limbaugh.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^That's a total of 14 of your last 19 postings (The past eight or so days and NOT ONE OF THOSE had anything to do with climbing either) on Supertopo were nothing but directed towards, "The Chief".
What a great contributor to this climbing community you so truly are, COMPTON! Not ONE single post in the past 30 days that comes close to any relevance to ... CLIMBING.
But then that doesn't come close to LOckers 39 in the past 72 hours. ALL directed to ... "The Chief".
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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Is he describing lil Chiefie's member?
No wonder he is such an angry twit.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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philo
climber
Oct 14, 2015 - 08:12am PT
Is he describing lil Chiefie's member?
Amazing Philco! Now your thinking about my... Dick?
WTF?
9 of your last 14 posts here on ST Philco were all dedicated to, "The Chief". Glad to see I am living in your head.
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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^^
This is a gun nut thread and the Chief is unfortunately a typical gun nut. So any posts about him are actually right on topic.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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...the Chief is unfortunately a typical gun nut.
Ah, got a ref to support that allegation, Ryan D. Or are you just bending over again in order to slurp the, "gang"? And good job typing with one hand while the other is in your azz pulling more shet out of it. Make sure you don't get any on your keys or iphone on your next post.
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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How is it that the vileness known as the chief is allowed to run amok in the forum. Dude is delusional in extremis.
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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I don't have much time for you & I hate adding more to this junk- but I'll play along for a second.
The question is- what are you adding to this thread the chief?
Or this forum in general?
Look at your posts in the last month. At least the ones you haven't deleted, or edited.
They're pretty much all super dumb.
A few good climbing posts here and there but mostly just you beating your chest trying to get someone to pay any attention to you while you wallow in the dregs of supertopo day and night.
Narcissistic Would be a compliment.
Save yourself. Figure it out.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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Ryan D: Save yourself. Figure it out.
I will add that tid bit of Libturd wisdom to those others that I just put in the Poop Tube.
Well, there's two more complete bullshet posts all about... "The Chief".
It's pretty certain that those individuals that have been posting all them nice things about "The Chief" on this thread as well as the others out there, do not like him nor his views. AND, they most certainly want him gone so as NOT to disrupt your "Progressive" buttsnorkling politard party.
But, and a bigass but, The Chief is not here to suck/buttsnorkle your azzes nor play along with your continued extreme out in the parking lot left wing "Progressive" bullshet ideology. AND, he doesn't really give a flying ratass about your liking or disliking him. Nor any of all them pretty fking stooooooooooooooooopid stick figures with fries coming out it's ass or...
It sure is obvious who is living in who's heads.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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I hate to say it, but I think some of you guys have been trolling Chief a bit too...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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moosedrool
climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Oct 14, 2015 - 09:08am PT
I had a dream. Bernie was POTUS. My grand kids were in college, tuition free, but working a few hours a week making $15/hour in a local flip burger place. As walked through Oakland, I was approached by black teenagers asking me if I needed any help. I said I was fine, just walking. We talked a bit how their naiborhood got better when the war on drugs stopped and their parents started working again. I told them about my trips to Syria and Iran. They told me about the student exchange program with Afghanistan.
In your "Utopian Dream" Moose, who and how...
1. WHO Paid for all this free education AND the housing bill for your grand kids?
2. What jobs were them kids "parents" working at that do not currently exist?
3. How did all them drugs (Heroin, Crack, Meth etc) miraculously cease happening and disappear?
4. Who and How did the 2000 year or so strife between Sunni and Shia (Iran, Iraq, Syria etc) Muslims suddenly stop?
5. What motivated ISIS to drop their weapons and all start rose gardening throughout Iraq, Syria, Libya etc?
6. How did the Taliban Men (Afghanistan) discard their over 1500 year Sharia Law lifestyle that allows them to gang rape little boys throughout the nation every Wednesday, treat their women worse than their dogs and kill any "infidel" that comes into their community?
Seriously MOOSE.. Wake the fk up.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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We are allowed to have dreams, The Chief.
You SURE are MOOSE.
But please cease imposing all them "fantasies" and all the ideology that goes with them onto those that choose to deal with the reality known as ... Life on Planet Earth.
Cheer up.
I do LMAO when I watch complete "fantasy" dreamer bullshet such as this, MOOSE!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.....
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 09:41am PT
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Living in your HEAD.... COMPTON.
Too funeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 10:34am PT
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Holy shet LOcker..
That's 40 out of your last 42 posts here on ST all about... "The Chief".
Living in your Head, doooooooooooooooooood.
WoooooooooooooooHooooooooooooooo! You go LOcker.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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Nice try LOcker...
The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Oct 14, 2015 - 08:29am PT
... Or are you just bending over again
locker
climber
STFU n00b!!!
Oct 14, 2015 - 10:17am PT
"just bending over again"...
Now that's 41 ot of 43 out of your last posts on ST LOcker, directed to or thinking about, "The Chief". Keep em coming there, Sport!
Living in YOUR head, LOcker.... WooooooooooooooooooooooooooooHooooooooo!
Edit: HOW many years did you go to that photography school, LOcker?
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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Yep its all about the Chuff.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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There's another one.... Philco. 9 of your last 13 posts here on ST, "The Chiefie/Chuff" or whatever you else you come up with.
Living in YOUR head... love it.
EDIT: Hows them "guns' of yours, Philco.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Oct 14, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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LOcker... that's 42 outta 44!!!
Living in YOUR head.... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
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UPDATE: Gunfire at bus stop sends students scrambling for cover in South Chattanooga
One shooter in custody, another on the loose
October 13th, 2015by Shelly Bradbury in Local Regional NewsRead Time: 2 mins.
Gunman opens fire at school bus stop full of students in Chattanooga
Chattanooga News
Suspects questioned after gunfire threatens students at bus stop
At least one gunman opened fire this morning at a Chattanooga school bus stop where elementary, middle and high school students were waiting for the bus.
The kids ran for cover behind nearby houses and dove into porches. No one was hit during the drive-by, which happened across from the Bethlehem Center at 225 W. 38th Street.
The gang-related incident happened around 8:20 a.m., according to police.
"I saw one little boy's legs dangling off someone's porch," said Latoya Hunt, who was across the street when the shooting started. "He was trying to hop over it. He was scared...he was just dangling."
Howard students walk along 38th Street after arriving in a school bus on Tuesday afternoon, Oct. 13, 2015, in Chattanooga, Tenn. A shooting toward a group of students waiting for school buses happened near this spot on Tuesday morning. No one was wounded in the shooting that police believe is gang related.
Photo by John Rawlston /Times Free Press.
Witnesses reported hearing between five and 20 shots and said the shooter never stopped. Several houses were hit with bullets. It appears some kids at the bus stop had some sort of warning as the shooter approached — witness said the students started to run seconds before the first shots were fired.
Police responded immediately, Chief Fred Fletcher said. Investigators have one suspect in custody and are currently searching for a second suspect.
A man who asked not to be identified said a school bus arrived shortly after the shooter was gone.
"[The kids] jumped on that bus like it was the safest place to be," he said.
"They ran to that bus to get on it, so you know they were scared," another woman agreed.
The neighborhood is now bracing for retaliatory violence, Hunt said.
"It ain't over," she said, shaking her head.
Fletcher said police will have extra officers in the neighborhood today and called the shooting unacceptable.
"When someone terrorizes any neighborhood, it offends me," he said.
The daily drumbeat of gunfire in Chattanooga hasn't paused since Friday. Five people were shot through Monday. Though no one was hit in today's incident, the attempted shooting marks five days in a row in which gunfire has disrupted the lives of Chattanooga residents.
So far this year, there have been 107 shootings in Chattanooga and 17 gun-related homicides.
Yeah UmerKKKA HOME OF THE FEARFUL LAND OF THE SCARED.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Oct 14, 2015 - 06:47pm PT
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Yea The Chief.
And 9/11 was Al Qaeda's fault.
Talk about living in your head.
Sheesh.
Hard to believe Bush-bots like you still drink the look-aid.
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
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PennLive
SearchSearchAccountSign In
Arming every man, woman and child is not going to stop school shootings: Anne Reeves
Anne Reeves | areeves@pennlive.com By Anne Reeves | areeves@pennlive.com
on October 09, 2015 at 9:30 AM, updated October 09, 2015 at 11:00 AM
Stay connected to PennLive ×
Comments
Anne Reeves
Anne Reeves
PennLive.com
During Pope Francis' recent visit to Philadelphia, many of the area's universities closed due to the anticipated traffic jams and congestion caused by millions of papal pilgrims.
Officials believed the closures would reduce some of the chaos, while keeping students safe. It was a good move.
This past week, classes at many of the same schools were canceled again. But this time a terrorist created the shutdown, not the pontiff.
The juxtaposition of good and evil couldn't be more staggering: the joy and love of Pope Francis versus the fear and loathing of an extremist.
I am sickened. Terrified. And outraged.
Our country has to do something. One airline passenger attempts to detonate a shoe bomb mid-flight and now we all have to remove our shoes at security.
Everytown.org says there have been 142 school shootings since 2013 and what have we done in response? Damn little.
Last weekend, the FBI and ATF alerted Philadelphia-area universities "out of an abundance of caution," of a threatened attack similar to the massacre at Oregon's Umpqua Community College that killed nine people and injured seven others.
A posting on the same social media site used by the Oregon murderer warned that, "A fellow robot will take up arms against a university near Philadelphia. His cries will be heard, his victims will cower in fear, and the strength of the union will decay a little more."
"If you are in that area, you are encouraged to stay at home and watch the news as the chaos unfolds. His sacrifice will echo throughout the nation."
Schools beefed up security and advised students to report suspicious people and events. Some also enlisted the help of local police.
State and federal officials likely get tons of similar threats every day; we just never hear of them. But the fact the law enforcement believed in the credibility of this one paralyzed whole college communities.
My daughter attends one of those Philadelphia universities. With news of the horrific attack against peers across the country still painfully raw, she and other students struggled over what to do: go to class and risk an ambush or stay home and let the terrorists win?
This is no longer just a gun issue It's become an issue of how we live our lives. How our schools have become hunting grounds.
We parents agonized as well. Intellectually, I wanted to tell my daughter to be brave, live her life and to hell with the terrorists. But as her mother, I feared that if something horrible did happen, I did not want her there. I didn't want to imagine the unimaginable.
Other parents expressed similar concerns on social media: "I don't know what to tell my children. Certainly, it is not same America we used to live. So, so sad," said one mom.
None of the schools canceled classes, but many individual professors did. Most kids stayed in their dorms, terrified to venture outside.
This is no longer just a gun issue. It's become an issue of life and death. An issue of how we live our lives. How our schools have become hunting grounds.
I am tired of the arguments that only criminals kill with guns. I doubt the mother of the Oregon murderer thought her son was a criminal. Other school shooters also had no prior criminal record.
And as to the growing chorus that the only real protection against violence is to carry a gun, please just stop. That if the victims had been carrying a gun, they'd be alive today? That if every man, woman and child is armed, the killings will stop? Welcome to the new O.K. Corral. Let's just hope no cars backfire nearby! Duck!
Our country's would-be leaders aren't helping.
Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson said on Fox News that he would've done more to prevent the killing spree.
"Not only would I probably not cooperate with him, I would not just stand there and let him shoot me," Carson said. "I would say, 'Hey guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can't get us all.'"
GOP presidential contender Donald Trump, told MSNBC that, "You're going to have these things happen."
"It's not politically correct to say that, but you're going to have difficulty ...and people are going to slip through the cracks," Trump said. "What are you going to do, institutionalize everybody?"
This is exactly what's wrong with this issue. We mourn, we question, we say we'll pray for the victims. But then we make excuses. We call for adding more guns in public spaces instead of restricting them. We become numb. We forget.
We have a serious problem with gun violence in our country. Blame it on the criminals, the mentally ill, or the terrorists — whoever you want, but we can't just do nothing. Something has to be done. Our lawmakers must act now before another college campus, elementary school, or movie theater becomes a hunting ground. Arming every citizen is not the answer. Disarming some of them, is.
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philo
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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NATION
Epidemic: Guns kill twice as many kids as cancer does
Dustin Racioppi, The Asbury Park (N.J.) Press
Apr 11, 2013
Seth Wenig, AP
Group to give away 30 guns in 30 days in PR bid
ASBURY PARK, N.J. — Most victims of gun violence in 2010 were not on a battlefield or remote hillside in the Middle East fighting in a war. They were, like 6-year-old Brandon Holt, children and teenagers in America, according to the Children's Defense Fund.
Brandon was shot in the head by his friend and neighbor, an unidentified 4-year-old boy, on Monday night. He is now also a statistic of gun violence.
STORY: Family donates N.J. boy's organs after shooting death
In 2010, 15,576 children and teenagers were injured by firearms — three times more than the number of U.S. soldiers injured in the war in Afghanistan, according to the defense fund.
Nationally, guns still kill twice as many children and young people than cancer, five times as many than heart disease and 15 times more than infection, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.
"We see guns as much of a threat in their life as we used to see bacteria and viruses," said Dr. Judith S. Palfrey, a past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics and the co-author of the New England journal report. "If you look at what's actually killing children and disabling children, guns is one of the major things."
Accidental firearms injuries have been on the decline nationwide. In 2001, 5,091 children ages 19 and under were injured by a firearm. Those numbers steadily decreased through 2009, when 3,587 children under 19 were reported injured by a firearm, according to the defense fund.
A national issue
Monday night's shooting in Toms River comes during a high-profile period for guns and politics. Congress is set to vote on a series of gun-control measures aimed at reducing gun violence.
Meanwhile, gun violence persists. Since the shooting on Dec. 14 in Newtown, Conn., 58 children have been killed by guns, according to the online magazine Slate. On Saturday in Tennessee, a 4-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed the wife of a sheriff's deputy.
"Gun violence right now is an epidemic in our country," said Raymonde Charles, a Children's Defense Fund spokeswoman. "It's a moral imperative for us to really come together, work together to reduce gun violence."
It was not clear Tuesday how the Toms River boy got access to the rifle.
Nicola Bocour, director of Ceasefire NJ, which advocates for stricter gun laws, said the shooting underscores the need for a societal shift in attitudes toward guns.
"I think what it really shows is that the state of the gun culture in this country right now, the way it's approached, is not healthy," Bocour said.
Statistics on shootings
— In 2010 in the U.S., 606 people died from an unintentional shooting.
— In 2011,14,675 people were wounded in an unintentional shooting but survived.
— In 49 percent of unintentional shooting deaths, the victim is shot by another person.
— Thirty-three percent of U.S. households have a gun, and half of gun-owning households do not lock up their guns, including 40 percent of households with kids under age 18.
— A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a completed or attempted suicide (11 times more likely), a criminal assault or homicide (seven times more likely), or unintentional shooting death or injury (four times more likely) than in a self-defense shooting.
— Most unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home (65 percent), based on data from 16 states. The most common context of the death (30 percent) was playing with the gun.
Source: Brady Campaign to End Gun Violence
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John M
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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you overplay your hand, you end up pissing people off and they become entrenched.
If your attitude is that they are already entrenched, then why bother.
in other words..
give it a rest.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
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