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Mungeclimber

Trad climber

Nothing creative to say

Sep 14, 2015 - 08:47pm PT

Not to paint a picture, but I have heard of issues with Climbing mags photography dept.

Trad climber

Portland, OR

Sep 14, 2015 - 08:50pm PT

Thanks locker,Brennan for your response,
The images in question are from a 1986 article I submitted to Climbing. They then used the three images in question. When I submitted the images in 1986 I included one time usage rights granting them rights to use my images on a one time usage bases to publish the work, period. By using the images they agreed to my one time time usage clause.

jonnyrig

climber

Sep 14, 2015 - 08:58pm PT

Was it a written contract?

RyanD

climber

Sep 14, 2015 - 09:38pm PT

I give all my climbing pics to supertopo. In exchange I get to learn about social issues and behaviour and sometimes even see someone win the Internet.

Edit- and climbing!!

WBraun

climber

Sep 14, 2015 - 09:42pm PT

That does it!!!!

What an outrage!!!!

I'm boycotting the magazine.

Oh wait, I've ever even bought any of these so called climbing magazine things to begin with.

Never read em either ......

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Sep 14, 2015 - 09:45pm PT

I keep getting them confused with the Watchtower - which one was the light reading leaflet with glossy full color photos? Like 8-9 pages long, lots of white people...

docsavage

Trad climber

Albuquerque, NM

Sep 14, 2015 - 09:56pm PT

Are you not allowed to use your own images or simply will not be paid if they use them ... those are two separate things, one considerably more heinous than the other ...

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Sep 14, 2015 - 10:03pm PT

Top Five Multi Pitch Under 5.2

Back Clipping Z Clipping How To Practice Clipping Before Adventures

Best Helmet Go Pro Mountz Volume 15

How To Increase Yer Plastic Sends n Get Laid

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Sep 14, 2015 - 11:01pm PT

GD... Made me spit beer through nose... Hahaha

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Sep 15, 2015 - 12:21am PT

Yeah, that was a killer, GD. Try to give some sort of warning first. Okay?

Trad climber

Portland, OR

Sep 15, 2015 - 01:44am PT

Thanks to several people out there I have edited my original post. ‘All Rights’ will not be given to them but “the rights to use the images in the future without additional payment” is what the contract states.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 15, 2015 - 03:13am PT

From what i understand the current trend in photo depts is to be as cheap as possible. It sucks but it's what they do these days.. I pretty much stopped trying to sell news photos because its more hassel than its worth. the last Cover I got at the #2 daily in the state paied $30.00....

rockgeir

Trad climber

Tucson, AZ

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:01am PT

Sorry to hear this! I sent a message to Climbing.

The Alpine

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:06am PT

Welcome to the world of climbing publications, You're not alone.

Do you have your original one time use contract still available? And you're right, don't sign the bs they're asking you to sign.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:16am PT

I will Call and I'll cancel my subscription . The kids got it for me and every time it comes my wife sees it and hides it ! It drives me to drink for real I lose my sh#t "are you kidding me" I yell!
The thing is always just aimed at churning money out of noobs and outing areas that need less traffic not more. Now it is the shill for Corporate interests at odds with many of its core readership.
Still the fact that climbers are supporting themselves and getting it done for a living makes me very . . . . .?. . .What the kids say . . . .JELLO. . .
Wait how's Jeff doing? Is he lurking?? a fond and Harty hello Jello, if you are sir!

dirhk

Trad climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:22am PT

Dude you are being way lame. Someone doesn't think your product is particularly valuable so you go online and whine in hopes that they take pity on you? Good luck.

Fish Finder

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:09am PT

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow Jody

Thats great!

a story of your success is what this thread needed

how great that you spew about YOU

pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:10am PT

do what I do whith my photo job..

I sit take pictures of surfers they give me 20bucks then I send the pic's..
one of my pics was bought from a surfer then entered into a contest and won 1k bucks but whatever he bought it off of me..

people love pics let em have it.. for free

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:14am PT

Give it away on ST for free. Then you wont feel bad. Give away so much that no one cares feels even better. Photos aren't worth much these days as everyone has a camera.

RtM

climber

DHS

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:20am PT

Join the club! I have been burned several times by them. What I find the most insulting is that they send me contracts to sign, and then they breach them.

I don't care that much about the money, but when they tell me they are going to pay me XX amount, and then do nothing about it - argggg. At one point I tried to pursue the matter with them, and just got the run around.

Now I don't even bother to submit images to them.

Robert Miramontes

pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:31am PT

jody ill go to you for photo advise!

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:32am PT

How To Increase Yer Plastic Sends n Get Laid

GDavis, that does it. I now know I stopped my subscription way too soon...

Come to think of it, I haven't gotten laid since I let that thing slide, and I've spent all this time wondering what happened. Thanks for the tip!

Fish Finder

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:42am PT

It still looks good and worked for them Jody

the process from transparency to the printed dots is several generations away from the original

you will always loose detail

but surprising they didnt focus on the stars since the word is in the title

Shannondavis

Mountain climber

Boulder, CO

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:44am PT

Morning!

I don’t understand the need to scream into the forums void (to each their own, but I’m just not a forums guy). Anyway, that’s what we have, so here’s the rest of the story.

We have a department in the print edition called Archives where we reprint Climbing magazine content and photos to highlight something you should know about or bring to light history repeating itself or just to make fun of ourselves. This department runs in some issues, not all. In this case (NOV 14 issue) we ran images of climbers wearing lycra tights. It was hilarious. These originally ran in our April 1987 issue. Of the three images Mr. Noebels refers to, one was the cover shot. We ran the cover exactly has it originally appeared, and we have full rights to do that. The other two images ran at thumbnail size, and were cropped in such a way that you could not see the context of the original page, so I agreed to pay him a $100 re-use fee. This was a unique agreement in that it’s actually more than we usually pay for original work that would run at that size.

I don’t write the checks, but I do send contracts and invoices to Active Interest Media’s accounting department in El Segundo, CA. Our publishing company requires both a signed contract and invoice to process payment. I’ll be the first to say, AIM could pay contributors in a more timely manner. But in this instance, “refusing to pay” is a big stretch. I have Mr. Noebels’ invoice but still do not have a signed contract. Until now, I haven't heard disagreement with the contract terms--when contributors do voice those to us, we are able and willing to make changes.

Hate me if you want, but I can't begin the payment process until we have all the paperwork.

Shannon

10b4me

Social climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:46am PT

Oh wait, I've ever even bought any of these so called climbing magazine things to begin with.

Never read em either ......Here

But your picture has been on the covers, Werner.

couchmaster

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 09:48am PT

A buddy once called me up and asked if I had a pic for an article he needed to write for Climbing. "Sure, here ya go" I just gift it to him, no charge, no worries, no thinking about it. Climbing mag sends me a contract so they can print it without getting sued. "Sure", signed so that pic could run with buddies article.

Climbing mag has someone send me a check for $100. CaCh$ng!!!! The next year they ran it in some sister publication, wham unexpected CoCh$ng part deux!!!! Another check! Now I'm startled. You mean folks get paid for this? Woot! God bless America and I'm having sweet dreams at that point.

Thanks Climbing. And thanks for heading that hate stampede off at the pass before it went over the cliff Shannon. Haha. Peter, did you see that? Contact Climbing mag with your concerns. Cause I can't rewrite the contract for you.

Now moving on, anyone going to complain about Fish or Yates here rather than contact them direct? I'll start off, the toggle device with the thin rope on my Yates rope bag broke this weekend. So I'm pissed and complaining about Yates).

Kidding about being pissed, but you get the point. (I'll try and rethread it back on:-) Why complain here, and not to the other party?

Good luck Peter.

Ref modified version quote:

"To make a 9 month old saga short, Climbing magazine used three of my images in their November 2014 issue and are refusing to pay the $100 Shannon Davis (editor) and I agreed upon. Before they will pay, they ask I sign their contract stating that ‘I give them the rights to use the images they have of mine in their data base’. By signing that contract I am not allowed to any additional future payment when they use my images..

I do not know of any photographer who would agree to that.

If you think that is wrong please contact Climbing’s facebook page or call them at 867-5309 and ask for Jennie and state your disagreement to this refusal to pay a photographer what is rightfully due.
Money is not the issue here, it’s the fact Climbing tried to save $100 by not informing me on the use of my images and then demand I sign their contract before payment.
Thanks......Tommy Tutone"

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Sep 15, 2015 - 10:01am PT

This isn't going to make you feel any better Peter but don't sign anything and simply walk away. This isn't worth any more of your time or attention.

You have certainly been wronged but the debt isn't worth pursuing legal action to collect so move on, brother.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Sep 15, 2015 - 10:15am PT

I used to run a high circulation magazine. $100 bucks is fair.

"All rights" should be to republish as "editorial" in print, web and video media. NO commercial use to sell products etc.

Better to work it out quitely. Delete this thread if you ever want to sell photos for money again.

The world is awash in and ocean of good photography thanks to modern technology. The value of photography is dropping rapidly due to competition.

I can do things in a 5 minutes with my iPhone that I used to have to pay $3000 for 20 years ago.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Sep 15, 2015 - 10:27am PT

Yeah, now that I read this over carefully, this is from the 1980's!?!?

Sorry, your photos are public domain.

Lurkingtard

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 10:53am PT

I was like Peter Noebels? I haven't heard of that guy since the '80's.

chill

climber

between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing

Sep 15, 2015 - 11:04am PT

If you think that is wrong

I think it is wrong that you whine about this on ST.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Sep 15, 2015 - 11:37am PT

Small claims court might be an option for the collection of the small amount of money AND an injunction against publishing in the future.

You are the copyright owner.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Sep 15, 2015 - 11:54am PT

Yeah, now that I read this over carefully, this is from the 1980's!?!?

Sorry, your photos are public domain.

not so. extends well beyond the life of the photogs.

were the photos registered?

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Sep 15, 2015 - 01:04pm PT

To all those who have material that might be at risk, it is a good idea to REGISTER the copyright. It costs (I think $65), but you can list up to 5,000 images for that fee---or only one.

Registering gives you many advantages, including the automatic capturing of attorney's fees, which is really what makes the whole thing relatively uneconomical to pursue. "The Man" knows this, and uses this to their advantage in ripping people off. When you have the upper hand, they generally cave pretty quickly.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Portland Oregon

Sep 15, 2015 - 01:35pm PT

Just say the words "Millenium Copyright act."

From the Purdue University law school.

Copyright infringement is the act of violating any of a copyright owner’s exclusive rights granted by the federal Copyright Act. There are three elements that must be in place in order for the infringement to occur.

The copyright holder must have a valid copyright.
The person who is allegedly infringing must have access to the copyrighted work.
The duplication of the copyrighted work must be outside the exceptions.

The legal penalties for copyright infringement are:

Infringer pays the actual dollar amount of damages and profits.
The law provides a range from $200 to $150,000 for each work infringed.
Infringer pays for all attorneys fees and court costs.
The Court can issue an injunction to stop the infringing acts.
The Court can impound the illegal works.
The infringer can go to jail.

Or go for the $450k.

Have a great climbing trip out of it.

FRUMY

Trad climber

Bishop,CA

Sep 15, 2015 - 01:43pm PT

Tami is right.
& if this isn't the place to complain there is no place to complain.

Lurkingtard

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 02:17pm PT

Climbing has a long list of contributors that no longer contribute because of not being paid or waiting over a year for payment.

Now there's a bunch of nobodies fresh out of college ready to write or give their pics away for peanuts.

They should just pay the guy. I'm sure Peter's not worried about burning this bridge.

pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Sep 15, 2015 - 02:28pm PT

Tami wrote:

I'd obviously like to be able to monetize it at some point

maybe this can be a fix for supertopo.. monetizing pictures

zBrown

Ice climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 02:51pm PT

How much do you want for "all rights' (theirs only, not yours or anyone else you want to deal with)?

Write them and tell them how much you want to accept "their deal".

slabbo

Trad climber

colo south

Sep 15, 2015 - 03:01pm PT

I had an issue a few years ago with payments,,,,F'm it took several months and a post her to get $$

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Sep 15, 2015 - 03:14pm PT

Ahh Couchmaster, you probably also fell for it when Nixon said "I am not a crook" too. Peter's been a buddy of mine for almost 30 years, he's a straight shooter. Shannon's response is carefully crafted copy-and-paste boiler plate, same thing he posted in response to my critical comment on Climbing's Facebook page. You're not having a "chat" with a concerned person, you're swallowing some defense ad copy.

all in jim

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 04:00pm PT

I gladly burned my bridge with Climbing and Shannon years ago. For nearly 20 years I made a significant portion of my income working with Climbing Magazine and the great editors there like Michael Kennedy, Michael Benge, Duane Raleigh and Matt Samet, to name a few.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a regular contributor who hasn't been dicked-around by the current crew there. Late payments of a year or more and payments only after legal proceedings are the norm. Peter's work was used without his permission... that's stealing - what's so hard to understand about that? Of course he's miffed when he's spent 9 months trying to get paid for something that was stolen in the first place.

To those of you who say that magazine editorial is a dying industry I'd partly agree. But it's because photographers who don't care or know the value of their work are giving their work away. And besides, magazine editorial is not dead yet - thankfully there are people like Peter, a pro of many years, willing to hold Climbing accountable, and I applaud him for that!

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Sep 15, 2015 - 06:46pm PT

Shannon wrote:

"....Of the three images Mr. Noebels refers to, one was the cover shot. We ran the cover exactly has it originally appeared, and we have full rights to do that. The other two images ran at thumbnail size, and were cropped in such a way that you could not see the context of the original page, so I agreed to pay him a $100 re-use fee. This was a unique agreement in that it’s actually more than we usually pay for original work that would run at that size....."

What you are saying is that you ran images that you didn't have an advance agreement that established terms for republishing and now there's a conflict over the terms. Ya'll dropped the ball with that and exposed yourself to legal issues. Asking for complete future rights to use images for free is a huge deal and so $100 is chicken feed and not related to the thumbnail size you claim.
If the photog didn't bring up the rights grab terms issue with you when it came time to deal with payment, he dropped the ball there.

Reports on Facebook from well known people seem to reinforce that late (extremely late) payment is an issue (that seems to be outside of the control of your position)

Unfortunate situation for which we don't have complete information yet still it seems

Peace

Karl

Shannondavis

Mountain climber

Boulder, CO

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:01pm PT

Jeez man.

I'd love to pay him, but our publishing company's AP department isn't paying anyone without both an invoice and a signed contract. I still do not have the latter.

From his forum post, I clearly gather he has beef with the contract terms, but he hasn't discussed this directly with me.

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:07pm PT

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:05pm PT

LOL!!!...

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:51pm PT

you should be offering the photographer something more than a contract - an apology.

Lurkingtard

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 07:55pm PT

You don't need a contract to pay someone 100 bucks.

Quit pussyfooting Shannon and pay the man his money.

Then you can go back to fuking the young minions happy to give their stuff away for free.

overwatch

climber

Sep 15, 2015 - 08:29pm PT

That rag has sucked for years

mtnyoung

Trad climber

Twain Harte, California

Sep 15, 2015 - 09:08pm PT

I'd love to pay him, but our publishing company's AP department isn't paying anyone without both an invoice and a signed contract.

I call total bullsh#t. Look up the word cant. It applies to your comments perfectly. You sound like an insurance adjuster - using "the man" as an excuse to screw with people.

If you were in negotiations with him your comment would be relevant. But you're not. You used his intellectual property and, by rights you should pay him.

Trying to impose your contract on him before you do what is right is lame. It's an excuse and a very poor business practice.

And what about the ongoing practice of just not paying other photographers? As an attorney I've already helped two photographers wade through Climbing Magazine's bureaucratic excuses, failures to communicate, broken promises, and delays (I've done this behind the scenes/informally). As a business your reputation is deservedly complete crap (I'll let the quality of your magazine speak for itself).

ms55401

Trad climber

minneapolis, mn

Sep 15, 2015 - 09:14pm PT

LOfukingL!!!...

Kalimon

Social climber

Ridgway, CO

Sep 15, 2015 - 09:23pm PT

Quit the mags and get out for yourselves . . . Werner don't need no stinkin' magazine, he lives the real life.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

Nothing creative to say

Sep 15, 2015 - 11:05pm PT

Shannon, you haven't said "I'll try to reach him now." In light of the use already without a contract I'd recommend you extend yourself a little.

This whole thing makes me want to buy a print from a photographer.

FRUMY

Trad climber

Bishop,CA

Sep 16, 2015 - 07:38am PT

He does not need a contract nor is it his problem. They used his product they need to pay. What part of that don't you understand?

Fish Finder

climber

Sep 16, 2015 - 07:56am PT

Yes that is correct

You (editor) are the one who is to have the contract before the use of said pics

You ran them without a contract and you know your just yankin the photographer

On principal alone.....
you should just pay the man

Edit: Climbing mag - poor decision to show up here and be so righteous

Matt's

climber

Sep 16, 2015 - 08:10am PT

Based on the complaints of Peter Noebels (as well as other photographers who have come to supertopo and mountainproject to complain in the past), Climbing magazine appears to make it as byzantine as possible to receive payment.

Perhaps this is conscious business strategy? I wonder if the magazine is profitable...

RtM

climber

DHS

Sep 16, 2015 - 08:52am PT

Ok Mr. Shannon, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll resend my 3 invoices.

Then I'll post up the outcome here.

Can you confirm where I am to send the invoices? rtm@socalbouldering.com

Robert Miramontes

RtM

climber

DHS

Sep 16, 2015 - 09:08am PT

Hi Jody

thanks! The typical payment for a photo to be published in a climbing guidebook is $50. That amount usually goes down for more images used. Cover shot pays more.

all in jim

climber

Sep 16, 2015 - 12:28pm PT

Shannon wrote:

"Jeez man.

I'd love to pay him, but our publishing company's AP department isn't paying anyone without both an invoice and a signed contract. I still do not have the latter.

From his forum post, I clearly gather he has beef with the contract terms, but he hasn't discussed this directly with me. "

Shannon this is exactly the shell game you and Julie play with contributors. The thing that makes it so unbearably tired is that you stand between 'accounting' and the contributor,saying you are powerless to do anything about the long-standing headaches contributors face when trying to deal with issues of late and non-payment. AND believe me, it is a major headache! It's demoralizing to work hard and with passion to create a photograph or story that will stand out in today's market, have it used for someone else's profit, and then have to keep track of ancient contracts and jump through endless hoops for a year or more to get paid.

I've worked with 100s of different clients over the years, and only the absolute worst of them come close to AIM in terms of late payments and contract hassles.

Knowing all this, I can only assume AIM continues this policy for some reason - don't tell me they lack money, or if you do, please explain how they have been able to make the gigantic purchases they have made in the recent past.

I can list a dozen other photographers who will echo this. You must have by now dealt with triple that many who have taken issue with AIM's methods.

And this goes back for SO long! For me it goes back to the first time I did work for Backpacker magazine (owned by AIM) 20 years ago - it took a year of hassling them to get paid for an assignment. Then there were the Skram years, and now about 7 years of AIM spouting the same BS.

Perhaps at the end of the day it just comes down to dollars and cents at AIM. I will speculate the reasoning: virtually invisible corporate-minded bean-counter at AIM crunches the numbers and realizes how much money the company can save via contributors who eventually give up, or some other cockamamy cash-flow reasoning. And they put you between the contributor and the money so they don't have to deal. Is it in your job description to take the heat? It must not be very fun to have to deal with all the time.