Maturing of climbing as a sport & the rise of gyms NYTimes

I think an increase in female participation has all but tamed the wild beast that climbing was 50 years ago when I started climbing mountains.

If women are more adventurous in climbing, why do men do 99% of first ascents?

Y'all do recall that the IOC was inches from making it an Olympic sport, right?

Sure that beast is alive and well where climbers endeavor to hunt it down, but the animal that the vast majority of today's climbers want to hang out with is more of a finicky pussy cat, or a tail wagging, leg humping pup.

When there were no guidebooks and people were mostly getting out climbing as a way to scramble up, or climb a peak it was more of an adventure, and attracted a different type of a user.

It's not so much a value judgment so much as an observation that 'what climbing is' has been essentially redefined.

So be it, but if that reduction is what constituted climbing for me I'd be bored out of my skull and find the entire exercise so numbingly dreary and pointless I wouldn't bother doing it anymore.

Echoing what's already been said, I think it's so funny that people are so quick to place moral judgement on things as pointless as climbing up rocks.

It's no more or less useful or good than suffering up mountains.

< I don’t understand why the choices of others are so bothersome to individuals who are affected in no way by those choices. >

Only listen to numetal when adding new metal retro bolts to 12X routes from the 80s.

I'm not in love with kicking steps in steep snow slopes

Vitaliy,

Thanks for having the courage to sort of back me up on the truth in that statement. By the way, I've thorougly enjoyed your TRs and consider you to be the best new representative of the climbing spirit that posts here. As a result, I think your views carry a lot of weight. You pick a nice balance between all out effort and dedication to climbing and a light hearted attitude towards it.

Keep charging wildman!

The overwhelming presence of women climbers has tamed climbing. You can't appreciate what I'm saying if you haven't seen fifty years of climbing's evolution, and haven't dirtbagged it in the late sixties and early seventies. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. It's kinda nice having most climbers watching each other's asses in the gym or within a few minutes of the road.

As far as congress, the military, and science go, mostly they are very tame by my definition, infested with rules

Back in the day we all of us despised OFPs. Now we share the crags with them.

'Athletic performance' and grades have risen (as they always have), but the bottom line is the skills and abilities have plummeted as a percentage of the total demographic. It's now more like gymnastics where millions are culled to produce a very small percentage of top performers. Pre-gyms and pre-sport, the overall performance spread across the entire demographic was far, far narrower.

Since you want to get nasty, would you be doing those backcountry FAs without him?

Please kitten,

misogynistic is a strong word to be throwing at me.

The point of this article is about the state of pure athletic performance in climbing-

She calls me an arrogant misogynist, and can't explain why, gets a pass, I call her kitten twice, and you agree I'm a woman hater?

I've repeatedly questioned her perspective and her use of the English language

Women aren't used to being dealt with like that. Most men mostly kiss ass to women, especially hot young ones, for reasons that are obvious, to me anyway.

Totally amazes me how one's perceptions (or in most cases, misperceptions) can actually govern reality

And by the way, Don Whillans beat his wife. He was also a violent alcoholic. That is prime source information from a person who knew the family VERY VERY well

Fecal veneer is no joke.

Not everyone can pack it in to become a climbing bum for a few years when they're 40.

^^^^ I suggest they take up Golf and/or Cricket in your case! ^^^^

Gym climbing reminds me of a Bingo Hall on a Friday night.

Yeah lots of hot chicks.

Trudy prefers making me help with her garden and caring for hummingbirds rather than getting her point across with a Glock.

Yeah but it's all a good thing.

I think an increase in female participation has all but tamed the wild beast that climbing was 50 years ago when I started climbing mountains.

There are still wild places in the Sierra for people comfortable with a map, a compass and manzaneering.

The men of SuperTopo are not a bunch of pussy-whipped whimperers

I get back to Camp 4 hours later and they smoked 90% of that lid.

That was a lot of hits.

The men of SuperTopo are not a bunch of pussy-whipped whimperers who rush to defend women because their manliness has been stripped away by shrewish wives, the feminist agenda, and closely spaced bolts.

lower T than a crate of Earl Grey in the Marianas Trench

Are you old enough to drink?

Man, I yell "watch me" on sport climbs so I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't have statistics to back my observations up, admittedly, but parallel to that is the increase in female participation in "climbing"

there has been an outspoken feminist minority that has a public hissy fit any time a publication "objectifies" women or pictures them in anything resembling a sexy way

I can't.


I wish I could.

You could say correctly " Don't like a thread ? Don't click on it" and yes that would be true ( I don't click on them BTW )

you will never know what climbing culture in California was like in the late sixties and early seventies like I do.

Your opinion is based on what you predict, or hope, will happen as far as female FAs go, mine is based on what has happened.

[Holland] had lately become a devotee of 'rubbers' (gym-shoes), even on wet ground, where most climbers - bar the latest 'tigers' - find that they slip as treacherously as on ice. The rubber shoe had just come in [1918] and divided the climbing world as sharply as later the question of oxygen or no oxygen for Everest was to do. 'Dangerous and dishonest, and quite out of the true tradition of the sport', said one party. To which the other replied, 'what about the nails in your boots, the rope and your carefully chosen ice-axe? Equally they make climbs much easier.' The same dispute arises with every technical innovation which in any way changes the standard of difficulty."

it has clearly been shown, and recently reviewed that women show higher anxiety in comparison to men (Mchenry et al., 2014)From all behavioral parameters, the anxiety seems to be most sensitive to testosterone.... similar anxiolytic effects of single testosterone administration resulted in reduced fear(Van Honk et al., 2005).

I would expect that higher anxiety doesn't lend itself to seeking out inherently uncertain-outcome activities like adventure climbing, FAs, etc.

My initial observation, which lit the fuse on the fembomb, was simply that gyms had made climbing more tame, and more comfortable, and that appealed to a broad range of broads who would probably never have ventured out to a real crag.

Why haven't gyms made 'climbing more tame' for guys too?

They have

clearly been shown, and recently reviewed that women show higher anxiety in comparison to men (Mchenry et al., 2014)

What is it about the first ascent that makes it (seem) more important an issue to men as opposed to women?

approximately 18% of the adult American population suffers from an anxiety-related disorder and another 7% from major depressive disorder each year (Kessler et al., 2005b). Further, females are more than twice as likely as males to be afflicted by mood disorders (Kessler et al., 2005a, Bekker and van Mens-Verhulst, 2007). These sex differences are observed, not only in the U.S., but are also documented worldwide (Seedat et al., 2009). This sex disparity indicates a potential role for gonadal hormones in the etiology of anxiety and depressive disorders. In fact, studies have revealed that women are more likely to experience mood disturbances, anxiety, and depression during times of hormonal flux, such as puberty, menopause, perimenstrual and post-partum periods (Ahokas et al., 2001, Parker and Brotchie, 2004, Douma et al., 2005, Solomon and Herman, 2009). While hormonal flux in females appears to increase the likelihood of experiencing mood disturbances, clinical and preclinical studies in males suggest that testosterone yields protective benefits against anxiety and depression.

(2) I've heard a lot of people throw around the idea that climbers are a bit nuts, or that they're drawn to the wilderness because they have trouble settling down like a "normal" person. Climbing....calms us down. I suspect many of us are afflicted with that existential anxiety that can't seem to be assuaged by a paycheck, and learning to deal with uncertainty and fear while adventure climbing does a lot to help diffuse the anxiety about life :)

The high number of relevant publications also indicates that it is a hot topic of interest. However, quantity is not quality and currently, despite numerous publications it is very difficult to conclude how testosterone affects cognitions and emotions...But based on our humble experience, the negative results will probably be more common than the published positive ones. And if the contradictory published findings are added, the picture gets even more confusing.

I think there is a very complex social interaction / recognition / ego component to it.

take away the reporting aspect of first ascents. Let's pretend for a moment that we can't report, or there is no means of reporting or recording any first ascents at all. Who would still be out there establishing them?

The existence of gender differences in propensity to take
risks has been documented in a large number of questionnaire
and experimental studies. For example, a metaanalysis
by Byrnes, Miller, and Schafer (1999) reviewed
over 150 papers on gender differences in risk perception.
They concluded that the literature “clearly” indicated that
“male participants are more likely to take risks than female
participants” (p. 377).

Male students showed significantly higher scores on subscales of thrill and adventure seeking, disinhibition and boredom susceptibility than female students.

Men score higher than women on measures of sensation-seeking, defined as a willingness to engage in novel or intense activities.

Happens and someone else got to have an FA experience on it.

How would we climb if no one was watching, ever.

a lot do what we do in climbing comes from the ego's need for recognition

I did it again on a visit home after climbing for a year and ended up backing off the traverse to the roof thinking I must have been either a lot lighter or just stupid.

Competition and ego, are the fuel that fires the advancement of climbing.

I worked on a photo shoot with her years ago in Red Rocks, and the DP wanted her on a particular route for the shot. The first bolt was about twenty feet off the deck, she balked at clipping it and asked me to do it for her. So I soloed up to it in my tennies and clipped her rope through it for her. Only time I ever climbed with her, if you wanna call it that.

True story.

I would really like to have that pint with you sometime, too.

maybe you're not competing to be the most strong, but perhaps the most 'pure' or whatever? be honest now.

Chick's a buffed out sport climber. In case you haven't noticed it takes more than that to climb with no pro and ground fall potential.

The combination of that preservation ethic, low climber density, little if any chalk on free pitches, and far less detailed information in general made many repeats of routes much more like first ascents than is the case now. And so, both men and women making subsequent ascents, especially early ones, were arguably involved in a more adventurous endeavor, one much closer to the first-ascent experience, than is the case today, and women's apparent low participation in first ascents ought to be viewed in that context.

I have always found the notion that women are equal to men to be preposterous.

It is OK for climbing to be fun...

... and not always some deep character building near dance with death!

For those who only climb in gyms I feel sorry for. They're missing the spirit of the sport. It has always been a sport of nature and wilderness enjoyment, outdoor adventure, discovery, risk, and finding your personal limits. Climbing was always badass more so than any other sport. If you know climbing history you know this to be true. Depends on the generation in question and in context. 

You know I hike a very well known mountain here San Diego several times a week and I boulder up and down the mountain for a really good all around workout. Seems I'm the only one doing so. It's not Woodson. The boulders aren't as big, but there are some great gems for sure.

Well one early morning I'm doing so and bouldering right off the trail, and a group of younger hot looking women come hiking by. The tallest prettiest one says, "Wow, I never thought about climbing here before, I've only climbed in a gym." I smiled at her and told her, "I would never admit to that if I were you." She said, "Sad huh?" "Yea. Gyms are great and get you really strong, but your're meant to use those skills outside. Look around. There are a lot of really fun good boulders here and it's free." She smiled.

If you and your climbing girlfriends were sitting talking shop about climbing, no men around, do you or would you encourage or be encouraged to do risky climbs, first ascents, and possibly be overtly competitive with one another?

You guys would get along fine in real life.

we regale each other with adventure-tales, and we dream up crazy adventures

Also no mention of trying to come up with route names that have sexual connotations that haven't already been used by some other guy.

Helps one grow a sack and be a real man, unlike those leg humping latte sipping transvestites found in your local gym, usually preoccupied with pleasing women. :)

"You can do it!" as opposed to, "you're lacking balls if you don't"

his approach was to allow him to sink or swim

agreed. Those sac-less 5% body fat gym climbers obsessed with plastic grades should aspire to be pudgy, beer swilling, 5.8, 10 on a good day, gear obsessed, crusty steep hikers, preoccupied with sharing a sleeping bag and toothbrush with men, ready to spoon for survival ... aka entry level alpinists

But we can still offer our expert opinion on the internet, so it is all good.

Trad ladies swoon.

Saving myself for a nice pair of sculpted calves.

YOU two need to bang already and get it over with.

Yes Vitaliy, there's nothing like training on the stunning shunts down at the Cookie before going off to Mount Sir Donald.

This modern internet yappin stuff is stooopid.

When you go to sleep to a sight of one of these summit ridges you have to accept that your close ones may get your body, if you can call it a body, in a month, if they are exceptionally lucky.

MATT, UGH.
I'm gonna start belaying you like you belay me.

A guy who's climbed with Kauk will always have an inferiority complex about his calves, Kathy

Obviously the maturing of climbing has only reached the prepubescent point

I was surprised to see one first credited to an all female team of three - Lower Arches Traverse, grade 1, 5.3, Krehe Ritter, Mara Unterman, and Judy Byers, August 1957.

2) Many FAs were put up in times when cultural norms for women did not encourage them to be adventurous. (To me this makes the women who pushed the limits even more bad @ss--they were counter counter culture.)

5) Climber humor is prepubescent. It looks like Vitaliy is trolling you again while I'm writing this overly long reply. This culture is probably why I feel comfortable with climbers :)

I'd be curious to see the rough number of people doing FA, FFAs, or alpine climbing with little beta.

The real question in my mind is how does a discipline that was largely based on mentorship handle a huge increase in the numbers of people who want to participate in it

Of course, Gary, there are more areas than Yosemite, I just happened to get stuck there for a few years, and had an old guidebook to reference. I did see Ellen Wilts' name on one or two routes in the Green Roper Guide.

I don't think its a whole lot different elsewhere,

Just wanted to take a break to salute the awesome climbing work of Jan Conn. She's badass and her badassery started a LONG time ago!!

was not actually trolling Kevin in particular in my last post. He is right that women don't do as many first ascents as guys. That is a fact, obviously. WHY not, is the question that you guys can argue about. Personally I would disagree with the claim that women made the modern climbers more tame.

Guys (at least of the teenage variety) apparently want to get laid less than their parents, probably because they are all too busy dogging up their bedwetter gym bolted sport projects to care. Here is a graph.

Kevin, I don't have a Ten Sleep guidebook to check how many, but the obvious exception to the trend of women not developing routes/doing FAs is Alli Raney. Not sure if it's come up in this thread already or not.

But if they want to show that female climbers are as adventurous as men, ON AVERAGE, or more so, then show me something, anything that proves that.

The girls I've seen in the gym the last five years don't seem to fit your oppressed stereotype, especially the no time for recreation baby making part.