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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 26, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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I routinely get sucked into BASE/wingsuit videos. I love watching that stuff. This linked video has some multi-person jumps that seem to push the crazy meter, as if BASE wasn't crazy enough. I don't do this sport, so maybe others can comment. Are these stunts as nutty as they appear? Isn't plunging toward the earth with only a few seconds to save one's behind dangerous enough? Don't get me wrong: I'm all for the freedom to risk one's neck. Thoughts?
Oh, as far as click bait, the main feature here is a super hawt jumper, Roberta Mancino.
Have fun kids. Just don't crater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SqAziLGSsM
BAd
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mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 26, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Sure can't answer the question in the thread title, but I am intrigued by the term "exit point." Some of them have found their exit point.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 26, 2015 - 08:21am PT
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Those people need to be held for a 72 hour evaluation.
And why do they bother with helmets?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 26, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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Cool video. But I am glad I am grown up and do not feel compelled to seek that thrill. I can crap my pants just as well on run-out 5.7 slab.
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Jun 26, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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It's obvious dude! Without a helmet, how to attach a GoPro?!?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 26, 2015 - 09:04am PT
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DOH! :-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 26, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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Some of my buddies were getting into BASE in the mid 90s. I was thinking about it, but then my friend brought home a video of a trip he just went on. A woman who was an experienced skydiver on her second jump ever jumped with a guy 10 feet above her. She miscounted her delay and the chute didn't fully deploy and she hit hard.
I was talking about this with my wife the other day. Why when something is already so dangerous do we have to introduce even more risk into it? Is it thrill seeking? People just don't think about the added risk? Boredom and needing to push the limits?
But I guess it's like anything else, big wave surfing, X rated climbing or free soloing, etc. People just have to push the limits.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 26, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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Makes climbers see through the eyes of nonclimbers who ask why their tax money is used to rescue or recovers these guys.
I mean, I soloed walls of caked mud but that BASE shlt is crazy!
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son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
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Jun 26, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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Someone was telling me about a fictional story they read about a
Mojave club that took the wing suit thing to the extreme.
They each built a home made rocket that they could squeeze inside
and would evade the Man driving around the desert to finally do a
mass launching to the edge of space. Then wingsuit down to a resort
in the Caribbean. Party like crazy, commercial jet back to work by Monday morning.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 26, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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Throughout history we've been pushing the envelope on one thing or another.
Begging for trouble? Yes, it's what we do.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jun 26, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
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I can't tell which came first, the GoPro or the suicidal idiot, but they seem to be inseparable.
Camping with my family last week and while walking on the trail with my 2 year old I hear some rocks coming down the slope. Sure enough there is a dumbass wih 2 dogs 3rd classing it up the talus shute with a GoPro strapped to his head knocking rocks down onto the public. There is nothing special about the area either, just a steep slope next to a trail.
Dumbass.
The 1/3000 rate of Base deaths per jump is adequate to validly call the practitioners suicidal. Just Russian Roullette with a little better odds. But they will become grease spots "doing what they loved."
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Chris Cunningham
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jun 26, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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The biggest (but not only) problem with base jumping is that there is no way to control the deployment bag as it pulls out of the container and extends your suspension and control lines...that is to say you have no control over which direction you will initially be heading in when, and if, your chute fully deploys. I have a skydiving license but have yet to see the base jump I would consider going off of.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jun 26, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
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... you have no control over which direction you will initially be heading in when, and if, your chute fully deploys. [Click to View YouTube Video]
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jstan
climber
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Jun 26, 2015 - 11:15pm PT
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Based upon the photo posted above, embarrassment may not be something she feels acutely. When watching the video it seemed to me she was perturbed when Jeb let her get in only a few words.
Another thing of note is that her Go Pro is not framed in the usual way. It is pointed toward her eyes. Great eyes I might add.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2015 - 06:18am PT
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Jstan is right. The guy is quite the egotist and talks over her, hogging the interview. I don't see this relationship lasting, but I could be wrong. Of course, augering in could shorten the relationship, too.
Damn, she sure is cute!
BAd
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Jun 27, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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Those aren't stunts, they are desciplines.
Pretty entertaining to hear climbers bagging on the risks of BASE jumping. Hopefully you don't make the mistake of thinking climbing is so safe you get complacent. I've lost a few dozen friends to climbing. Nobody gets out alive.
Have fun!!!
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jun 27, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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Not only are they disciplines, those athletes are very skilled at their disciplines.
Bitchin Video thanks!
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2015 - 06:09am PT
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Heavy stuff, Biotch. That woman in the striped suit jumping off El Cap must have been that famous last "legal" jump in the valley. What a sad situation. Looked like the chute never opened--at all.
@ElcapPirate:
Oh, I hear you, Ammon. I've not climbed at your standard, but I've been at the game long enough to know the stakes. I'm sure all of us here are glad your own BASE accident turned out so well in the end.
Be well, jump and climb safely, one and all!
BAd
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
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Jul 13, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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^^ Jan Davis
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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famous last "legal" jump in the valley -- Jan Davis
It was never legal at all.
NPS allowed them to protest jump and then when they landed they were arrested.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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The biggest (but not only) problem with base jumping is that there is no way to control the deployment bag as it pulls out of the container and extends your suspension and control lines...that is to say you have no control over which direction you will initially be heading in when, and if, your chute fully deploys. I have a skydiving license but have yet to see the base jump I would consider going off of.
Oh man....BASE pack jobs don't use a bag for one thing. The lines are stowed in a sewn in device on the tail, called a tailgate. The BASE pack job has been refined. We used to open severely off heading fairly often back in the early days, but they have now been refined to the point now that off heading openings are much less common. They do happen, but if you are quick, you can recover most of the time.
We did use bags in the olden days, when all you needed to do was pack with the slider down and put on a huge pilot chute, but your skydiving gear is quite different from BASE gear now, even I know that, and I've been out of the game since the nineties.
As for Jan Davis, I have mixed feelings. She seemed a nice person. I skydived on a few loads with her at Deland, but she was older. She had BASE experience, but not a whole lot. She wasn't super current from what I have heard.
She went in with a perfect parachute on her back. She was used to a legstrap pilot chute stow, but this rig had the stow on the base of the container, which is the way to do all rigs now. She went in searching for it.
I remember when skydiving rigs were available with either type of stow. When you jumped somebody else's rig, with a different stow, you practice it over and over until it is muscle memory. I can only assume that she didn't. If it had happened at a DZ, out of an airplane, it would have ended with a very embarrassing reserve ride at best, and a bounce at worst. She had soooo much time to find it.
Se was well liked, and her partner was Tom Sanders, a great free fall photographer. So it is hard to call her an idiot, but that's what it was, an idiotic mistake. For most jumpers, they could do El Cap every day until they die of old age and never get hurt. The only risky part of El Cap is that you must open high so that you have time to reach the meadow.
I saw a picture of Werner soloing Reed's with a boombox. He must be suicidal. Anyway, I've lost friends to climbing. None of my BASE buddies died jumping, although 2 died in car crashes. Walt died kayaking a dangerous line. His choice.
You guys need to lighten up. Wingsuiting is proving itself dangerous, for sure, but plain old BASE is now pretty safe with new gear.
Threads like this aren't very different from reading the comments section beneath the Caldwel/Jorgenson press when they were on the Dawn Wall. Don't think that you understand these things if you haven't done them.
Hell, if I were to get back into it, which I've thought about now that my son is out of college, I would have to go to the Perrine and take a first jump course or beg Ammon and Hank to help me out.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
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Look at that building strike on the previous page. She opened less than 30 degrees beyond 90 (parallel with the object) and she had 2 seconds to react.
All she had to do was pull her rear riser, and she would have been fine. Instead, she brain locked.
I've had way worse happen to me. She didn't react. She had no muscly memory. It is like watching a sack of potatoes.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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The first El Cap fatality happened in 1993. The woman was totally inexperienced. She didn't track. She kept a head high body position and managed to slide backwards into the wall. She didn't even know how to track, or brainlocked and didn't.
Even a half assed track in shorts and a t-shirt, will put you a good 250 feet away from the wall after 10 seconds. That last couple of seconds you are almost at terminal velocity and your forward movement is close to 60mph.
Even a half assed track will put you way out there.
Jan was the third El Cap fatality, in 1999. I've said enough about her.
I don't believe there has been one since, and I've read the entire list several times. It is a good way to learn from the mistakes of others.
If there was some basic ability required to do El Cap, like I said, you could do it all of the time. It is nigh impossible to hit the wall, you open so far away (I 180'd off my first time) that it is basically impossible to hit.
El Cap has been jumped thousands of times, and every incident was preventable.
The Royal Gorge Bridge is an example of a dangerous object, in a relative sense. OK for experts, but not for newbies.
These days there is enough of a BASE community that most of the stupid beginner deaths have stopped. Now and then, though.
It is just like climbing or kayaking or extreme skiing. You have people pushing the limits. People tend to do that, and you can't stop it.
Would you want to put a restraining order on Alex Honnold, preventing him from soloing? What about Bachar? He eventually did die soloing.
It is hard for you guys to weigh risk. These people know what they are getting into beforehand.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 14, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
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I have never commented negatively about base in general. The sport has matured and it does appear to be possible to do reasonably safely should one choose good exit sites, good conditions, good gear be current yadda judgement..yadda.
What I have been going on about for a while now is the low clearance (below) wingsuit proximity flying. As opposed to lots of air below and to the left or right of you.
That is simply misguided flying in any aircraft. Low altitude is not a place to hang out with aircraft. It is avoided for good reason by pilots who wish to live a while. Unavoidable for takeoffs and landings in regular aircraft..and not surprisingly the most likely times for fatal accidents.
I certainly don't advocate for outlawing these things. I would fight for folks right to do any of this. But I do advocate for voices stepping up and making clear the russian roulette nature of the game. Russian roulette is not a respectable type of risk taking. If you are the kind of person truly driven to push the limits..this is not an activity you should take up, it is not like many other things and humans are way out of their evolutionary element in it. We are severely handicapped in this arena. reliability and capability of flight equipment, Perception processing, speed, very slow reflexes relative to the speed of events and inability to sense rates of climb. Things birds take for granted and they still screw up.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Funny....
You never hear of jumpers sitting around bashing climbers. But for some reason climbers think that they have the rational and safe sport. Like BASE is some f*#king death wish. There is not one jumper out there that has such a wish. Quite the opposite.
I mean really if someone had a death wish why invest time, money and friendships just to go in?
Reading this form regarding BASE is highlarious. It seems to be a bunch of opinionated, ignorant and ego driven individuals.
99% of peoples comments regarding BASE and fatalities in this forum are 100% d#@&%e.
You sound as f*#king dumb as all the gumbies at El Cap Meadow...
" so you pound in all those spikey things into the rock?"
" and how you get that rope up there?"
" How you go to the bathroom?"
When Alex goes in we can all sit around and say how f*#k'n stupid climb is too and anyone who climbs is a moron :)
get outside more,
be on the internet less
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Pretty entertaining to hear climbers bagging on the risks of BASE jumping.
Huge difference in risk. The latest Rock and Ice showed the results of a survey of base jumpers. 70 something % of base jumpers have directly witnessed serious injury or death. That percentage is surely much much smaller for climbers.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 14, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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^^^
you must climb in a gym?
If you think for one moment climbing is risk free you are a complete moron. Even in a gym people have been seriously hurt or killed.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 14, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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Some of you guys will just never get it.
You can inform yourself, though. Go to basejumper.com and peruse the forum posts. Read the BASE Fatality List. A lot was learned from the mistakes of others back in the early days. Gear was evolving very quickly.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 14, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
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get outside more, be on the internet less
Do as I say, not as I do?
neener neener
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2015 - 06:19pm PT
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@Base 104:
Very informative. Thank you. I, for one, ain't bashing. It's just sad to lose our heroes, and in some cases, folks are doing some crazy stuff. But climbers do that, too.
One thought: I seems to me that one of the benefits of wingsuits is that they could make regular base a lot safer by allowing one to get well clear of the wall. But I guess that's too tame for some folks. I get it.
BAd
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
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There is not one jumper out there that has such a wish.
Wrong!!
We had a jumper who duck taped his clothing to keep his body parts together when he cratered off El Cap.
He had no canopy/parachute.
Pure suicide and death wish even left a note.
You guys don't know everything going on .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 14, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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I remember that day..sucked..I'm thinking the duct tape didn't work..amirong?
BASE104.. If you feel I am way off on my thoughts regarding proximity flight I promise to listen and not argue. I'd love to be wrong about it.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 14, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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"Reading this forum... is highlarious. It seems to be a bunch of opinionated, ignorant and ego driven individuals. "
Welcome to Supertopo! Thanks for posting the Info on base.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 14, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
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If anyone thinks the level of risk for the average BASE jumper is comparable to the level of risk for the average rock climber you are fooling yourself.
Everyone makes their own choices about what level or risk is acceptable but you should keep things in perspective.
I believe the point of this thread was the extra risk of "stunts" or "disciplines" and how much more dangerous are they and are they worth the added risk (which is really a personal question but it's interesting to hear people's take on it).
There's roped climbing and free soloing and they have very different risks. And there's El Cap BASE jumps and wingsuit proximity flying and they have very different risks.
For me personally I'm a generalist. I do a lot of different sports so I never feel I've "gotten bored" with a sport and needed to take it to a very high level for it to still be thrilling. But if I was really focused on BASE I could see wanting to progress and try more difficult things.
The main thing that concerns me about BASE (or high altitude mountaineering for that matter) is the objective danger, the things out of my control (e.g. line overs, bad weather). If things are in my control (even in something as dangerous as free soloing, unless a hold breaks) I feel like I at least have a pretty good idea of what the actual risks will be.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 15, 2015 - 05:12am PT
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I do a lot of different sports so I never feel I've "gotten bored" with a sport and needed to take it to a very high level for it to still be thrilling. But if I was really focused on BASE I could see wanting to progress and try more difficult things.
Your comparison to the risks involved with high altitude mountaineering is interesting. Virtual proximity flying would allow wipe-outs.
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 15, 2015 - 05:25am PT
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BASE104 has a lot of very good insight into a world I will never know. Thanks for posting your thoughts.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2015 - 06:25am PT
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Good points about high altitude work. When I was a young buck, I had some serious dreams about becoming a hardcore mountaineer. In fact, it was a documentary about climbing Mt. Everest narrated by Orson Wells that helped fire my imagination to become a climber. But as I was making more and more ascents, putting in the work to get to the upper levels of the game, I realized how easy it was to die. I got smacked by rock fall in the Canadian Rockies. People I met later died on moderate terrain. It just didn't seem worth it anymore--to me. I love climbing and can't wait to get back on the rock, but I want a little more room for error, a little more control. These are deeply personal calculations, but, ideally, our loved ones are part of the equation.
BAd
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 15, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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The main thing that concerns me about BASE (or high altitude mountaineering for that matter) is the objective danger, the things out of my control (e.g. line overs, bad weather). If things are in my control (even in something as dangerous as free soloing, unless a hold breaks) I feel like I at least have a pretty good idea of what the actual risks will be.
Bah, it's all relative. And your perception of risks is warped by your skills and familiarity in that arena. Works the same with the BASE guys.
In the mountains, (and well below "high-altitude") I've had numerous softball sized minerals whiz by my head at terminal velocity. I've had a vehicle-sized boulder roll between myself and my roped partner below the Willis Wall shredding the rope. I've jumped plenty of soft crevasse lips that were missing a few days later on the return trip.
In your rock-climbing analogy... Do you place protection every body length on easy terrain? Holds can and do break on easy terrain too.
Obviously dudes flying close to things are much closer to that bleeding edge but we're all pretty far out there in terms of risk. Only our perception is different.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 15, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Our perception of risk plays into it but there's objective analysis and statistics as well and I try to make decisions with that in mind.
With the limited statistics available BASE appears approx 100 times more dangerous than rock climbing. And an objective look at the speed of BASE. Vs roped climbing falls indicates much less margin for error with BASE.
Is the experience of BASE worth the risk of 100 rock climbs? For lots of people obviously yes.
And of course there's things you can do to reduce risk. I try not to climb under others on climbs with loose rocks, because that's by far the most likely way you'll get hit by rockfall. I'm usually on the lookout for loose holds, it helps to have done some FAs to get in that mindset.
I'm glad there's people out there doing cutting edge stuff in all sports. It's fun to watch and it advances what is possible for everyone. There's also different personalities. Some people were born to chase the Mammoth and wear it out. Some were born to go in for the kill. And some were born to wait at camp and butcher it.
Do you place protection every body length on easy terrain? Holds can and do break on easy terrain too.
One of the best things I heard when learning to lead is when I asked my mentor "How do I know how often to place pro?" And his answer wasn't every X feet is was "Think about what would happen when you fall at any point and where you will end up when the rope snaps tight and has rope stretch, and keep in mind the potential of a piece failing." And boom all of a sudden I got it. Leading off the ground or ledge you need more pro. On a steep wall with a clean fall you can run it out more. If you are trusting your life to one placement, e.g. due to groundfall, back it up if possible.
In the back of my mind, especially before a hard move, I have an idea of what I need to do in the split second at the start of a fall, e.g. how much to push out from the wall or how to brace for a swinging fall. I've also seen climbers fall that have low body awareness and just fall like a sack of potatoes and get hurt when they shouldn't have.
On easy terrain I may run it out 50 feet or more, but I know the likelihood of a fall is low; if a hold breaks on easy terrain for me that means it's low angle and there's a good chance I can hang on, I'd honestly be more concerned about my belayer below me. When I get to about 40-50 feet out I usually still plug in some pro even though I greatly doubt I'd need it. The risk is low but the consequence of a 100 foot plus fall is high.
When my friends in the 90s asked if I wanted to start BASE jumping I said "I'd like to try it from a bridge at the bottom of the structure (nothing to hit or get caught in), over water (a semi hard landing may be walked away from instead of breaking bones), with a round chute (more reliable than ram airs, at least at that time), and by myself (no one to hit or think about). But I know if I did that I'd want to progress and eventually I'd be jumping cliffs with a ram air chute. But some things like low height jumps just don't seem worth the risk to me. So I can see people progressing to wingsuits and proximity flying, but I hope they realize how much they are ratcheting up the risk.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 15, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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That's the thing... they DO realize they're ratcheting up the risk. Same reason the vast majority of us will be leading ~5.10 on gear and not soloing 5.12 things on Red Rocks sandstone with Alex... The public still regards us "normal" ones as crazy.
Where you feel comfortable effectively soloing easy sections of rock, it's likely an accomplished BASE guy feels comfortable doing "regular" Base jumps.
Risk is a numbers game and I think we all like to fool ourselves a bit with the math from time to time.
A question for the BASE guys though... what % would you guess of the current crop of pilots actually fly wingsuits close to solids?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 16, 2015 - 12:14pm PT
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Russian roulette is not a respectable type of risk taking.
OK. This statement sums it up fairly well. You guys keep posting about how risky it is. I'm not denying that it is risky. All I'm trying to do is discuss how to evaluate risk. Is it how many deaths per each jump?, or each climb? You guys seem to like per capita figures.
The Space Shuttle had two total losses out of 135 flights, killing 14 astronauts. That was one total failure each 67 flights. The Apollo missions were far riskier. We were lucky that Apollo 13 made it home. If there had been 135 Apollo flights, I wager that it would have been a lot worse than the Space Shuttle.
Every year people die on Everest, even though they have no climbing experience and are just jugging a fixed line. The odds there are certainly worse than wingsuiting on a per capita basis.
I knew Rob Slater, who died on K2 with others. Did you know that the most dangerous 8000 meter peak is actually Annapurna?
Now we have extreme alpinists who do futuristic routes up some of the lower Himilayan peaks. Those guys die. If they keep at it, for their whole lives, they almost certainly will die doing it.
In my opinion alpine climbing in Chamonix was more dangerous than BASE (non wingsuit). Certainly more people died. In 1984, they averaged a death per day on the entire massif. One evening, on the approach to the Dru, I watched 3 rescues going on at the same time from the steps of the Charpoua Hut. I knew the temporary hut-keeper, a Belgian named Benoit, who befriended me. Benoit died a few weeks later soloing on 4th class ground, taken out by a big rockfall.
How many have died on El Cap? There was that one a few weeks back, but there have been many others, on the Nose alone. The Nose has almost no objective danger. Good pro abounds. The only thing that will kill you is a mistake or bad weather. I know of one Jap team who froze on the last pitch, but it seems like there was a previous jap team who froze in the same place. I know of an incident from the 70's, where they dropped their haulbag from the stovelegs, and it ripped their badly made anchor.
More than that have died, I am sure. Yet only 3 have died jumping it out of probably 2000 jumps, and all 3 would not have been allowed if it were an organized event, with minimum requirements. An experienced jumper, with modern gear, could, in my mind, jump El Cap every day until he retired in his 70's. It is that safe of a jump. Overhung, high, simple. Just open high enough to clear the trees. I've done it quite a few times, and it was Wonderful experience. When you start tracking, the wall just recedes away from you. and you pull level with El Cap tower, a couple of hundred yards to the jumper's right. It is so steep that you open a couple of hundred feet from the wall. Plenty of time to turn around. Very simple. Half Dome is also safe, but we used to use a much more overhung part of the wall than today's guys. We thought that the Visor was unsafe.
They aren't that different from a low skydive.
Wingsuiters are dying right and left right now. They are pushing it so close to the limit that if they make the slightest error in judgment, they can die. It isn't just beginners that are dying with Wingsuits. We are seeing some of the very best die.
This will hopefully sort itself out. Nobody wants to die. The lines will get refined, and there is little difference from being safely 20 feet from the wall rather than being 3 feet from the ground or wall.
Wingsuiting right now is pretty hairy, just from the numbers and who the jumpers were, but it is like most things. You can make it as dangerous or safe as you like. A choice.
We've all done that type of thing. Soloing, for example. Everyone does it, pretty much, despite the knowledge of what happened to Derek, Bachar, and others who ended up with traumatic head injuries instead of death.
Unless you are a downright nimrod, you have accepted certain risks. The difference is that these risks, just like terrain flying, are not objective risks. They are subjective risks. Those that you choose to accept by upping the game.
Wingsuiting is all over TV and Youtube. You don't see 200 safe jumps because it gets boring.
It isn't the most dangerous thing on Earth, though it may be the coolest thing on Earth.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 16, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I always enjoy your intelligent posts BASE104.
Statistics aren't the best way to judge the true risk of A jump. An experienced, safety minded jumper on El Cap is way different than a risk taker doing his first jump at Perrine without real instruction. But as a whole they do help you compare for example rock climbing (including everything from sport to free solo) and BASE (everything from El Cap, to low altitude jumps).
Perception and media presentation has a lot to do with it perceived risk. You can watch a BASE jump video and it looks sketchy, while a climber on Everest just looks like they're plodding up the hill. As you mentioned Everest is much riskier statistically but you don't often hear people calling those climbers suicidal or crazy.
The Nose has plenty of loose rock that could kill you. And it's very tough to climb that without people above you. You just have to accept that objective risk.
Terrain flying is adding subjective risk. But that also adds objective risk because the tolerance for error is much less. If there's gust of wind or an inversion layer of different density air it may not matter hundreds of feet away from El Cap, but it may be catastrophic 10s of feet from the ground.
One of the really cool things about terrain flying is being at the right place and time with the skill to get in and out of harms way. They are too close to the ground to do anything but fly it out but then go over a big cliff where they have plenty of room to deploy. It reminds me of big wave surfing. If you do it the right way you get this massive, amazing ride and simply ride it out with no real impact to your body. But if you screw up you get smashed. Some ski descents are the same way, picking line of soft powder through big cliffs, airing it out and landing on a soft steep patch of snow, finding a line of relative ease through a minefield of death. It's that threading the needle of life that's so cool but also so dangerous.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 17, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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Yeah, I agree that it is hard to compare apples and oranges. If it was easy, my post would have been much shorter. There are so many risky things. Society accepts some, like the Space Shuttle disasters, but spurns others. Has anyone read the comments sections beneath online stories? Most people are afraid of the dark, much less able to do something risky, no matter how amazing it is.
A lot of it is fear of the unknown. What is unknown for me might be very well known for you. Or the other way around. Wingsuiting is new, only 10 or 15 years old. These men and women are pushing the limit. Like pioneers of old, they know about the danger. Geez, people die on lines that get flown all of the time, just like deaths on mountains didn't stop the first to climb them. It is fundamental human psychology.
Certain people accept more risk than others. Always, and I mean ALWAYS, there have been critics who said that it was like Russian roulette.
A bunch of people died trying to do the first ascent of the N Face of the Eiger. It seemed synonymous with death. Now dudes run up it in less than 3 hours, which is amazing, because it is sooooo big. It isn't a death sentence anymore.
The Eiger is a big deal with regard to BASE. It has an incredible amount of vertical relief. Dean, with his amazing wingspan, set the record for the longest wingsuit flight in the world there (it has now been broken, of course). In the U.S., the highest relief is Notch Peak, in Utah, which now gets wingsuited a lot.
Hell, ask Chris Mac about his experience on Notch Peak with a wingsuit. He had a close call there. Yes, people die there, too, but it doesn't just stop it.
It is all changing and growing very quickly. So much is unknown. It will take about 20 years to get a perspective on wingsuiting. I can imagine a day when it becomes much safer.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 22, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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you must climb in a gym?
If you think for one moment climbing is risk free you are a complete moron. Even in a gym people have been seriously hurt or killed.
Heseinberg - You misread my post. I didn't say that climbing is risk-free.
Yes I do climb in a gym among other places.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 22, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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hey there say, high fructose corn syrup... oh my, :( i just saw this article, too...
my condolences to the family and loved ones and buddies, :(
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 23, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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A really close friend of mine died on 7/10 on a wingsuit flight in Switzerland.
We skydived together for years, and he was probably the most gifted skydiver that I ever met. He could do anything. Somehow he got into BASE later on, after I gave up skydiving to pay for diapers.
I knew that he had gotten into wingsuiting, and told him to be careful, but as I said, even the best are dying wingsuit flying. Right now there is a rash of deaths happening.
So don't think that I'm immune to what is happening.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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Hey, sorry, BASE, that hurts. Condolences.
BAd
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jul 23, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Base, as you know, this year has been horrendous and who knows whats next at this point. Jhonathen F was legend and we were just playing in swtiz before the races. traggic with Ian also. All this makes me sick to my stomache...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Trad climber
Shitalkqua, WA
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Jul 23, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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I have an issue with the wingsuit races, and acrobatic competitions now prevalent in Europe (WWL).
With more prize money and sponsorships on the line, we are set to see the biggest bloodbath in the history of BASE.
The comp promoters lining their pockets at the expense of true flyers.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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We all get to forge our own paths through this world. That's how it works.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Trad climber
Shitalkqua, WA
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
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The whole BASE/ wingsuit community has such a microscope up their ass right now tho, so many dumb deaths already.
It's sanctioned suicide at this point.
They might want to police themselves a little more before the authorities step in.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:59pm PT
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And what of climbers? what of high altitude mountaineers and big wave surfers?
People know what they are getting into. The authorities would only get involved because of selfish as#@&%es wanting to control what others did with their lives. I hurt a sh#t load about this but understand it is the human condition and that I'm not perfect because my danger is 'less' danger.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 05:44am PT
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At least BASE jumpers do not have passengers.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2015 - 06:23am PT
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Just watched Wingmen last night. You know from the outset that one of the three doesn't survive. We don't find out the details because he dies in an outing separate from the two others. The focus of the film is a long trip to fly different terrain all over the world by three flyers. The fellow who dies--along with one other, a third left in a coma--dies because of jumping in bad weather, at least that is the implication. One of the men appears to swear off proximity flying after the death of his friend. I sure hope he did. These are such fine young men. It's tragic to see so many go.
It would seem to me--armchair wingsuit pilot!--that the only reasonably "safe" way to do these jumps would be to NEVER go in sketchy weather (wind/clouds) and use a wingsuit to fly well clear of land features quickly so chute deployment issues and smacking a wall are unlikely events. With the suit, you get a longer flight, and you can reach better landing sites. I suppose, even with these precautions, death is near, but dudes, stack the deck in your favor! If Dean and Graham had NOT been gunning for that notch below Taft Point, they'd both be alive today. Sigh....
BAd
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 06:38am PT
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IMO, if it doesn't affect many people in a negative way, why should anyone care how people live their lives or fly their wingsuits?
I can see the BASE community having mixed feelings about the potential of having additional negative press precipitated by a number of publicly witnessed and filmed violent deaths in some contrived, for profit, race.
With that said, I'll watch the videos regardless of outcome because it will be as exciting as hell.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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8 more deaths since Potter. Modern gladiators, soon on pay per view.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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Climbing is wicked dangerous. Anyone who thinks wingsuit flying is even in the same galexy danger wise as climbing is delousional...
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:17am PT
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Two words spelled wrong...troll?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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"8 more deaths since Potter"
On my!
When will the supply of base jumpers run out? Are people taking up the places of the fallen at the same rate? Me thinks not. GoPros will bring out the greatest number of participants for the glory of displaying their folly for all to see. But even this thrill may not have as great an attractive force as the effects of gravity that will inexorably bring the supply of base jumpers down - at the steady and unforgiving rate of "8 more deaths since Potter."
I foresee the next phase: Steph Davis starts "Basejumpers Anonymous" to bring back the addicted from the abyss before it is too late. Anyone else see this parallel to recovery from the deadly, addictive diseases (and there are many) coming?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jul 24, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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Tradmanclimbs said Climbing is wicked dangerous. Anyone who thinks wingsuit flying is even in the same galexy danger wise as climbing is delousional...
Really?
http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html
Climbing Everest is the only part of climbing that seems to get you to base humping type risks, and I have similar opinions about how much of a circus and stupid waste of life that is.
I don't have goo statistics on free soloing, but I also have a pretty negative view of those who solo hard stuff and make claims about it being "safe" in any way.
I give a bit of a pass to those who solo (or BASE, or wingsuit) for themselves without GoPro's, and without spraying about it later. Once you are talking sponsors and YouTube videos it becomes a spectacle that I consider to be irresponsible. Dumbass teenagers and 20 somethings can easily get sucked into the spectacle aspect without really appreciating just how awfully dangerous it is.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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8,000m peaks are right up there with the wingsuits. If the rest of the climbing population wanted to replicate their numbers per participants we would probobly have to lose 5 people a day....
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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@Moof:
Interesting table! I'm confused about "odds of dying," however, in some categories. For example, the odds of dying swimming are 1 in 56,587. Uh, 56,587 what? Times going swimming? Is swimming twice as dangerous as skydiving? A little help for the thick-headed here, please.
BAd
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 24, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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I'll have to show the stats to my wife tonight. She's a numbers person. I always tell her that commuting to work on my road bike is more dangerous than climbing... now I've gone the research to back it up. Thanks Moof!
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
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The AAC published an article in summer 2004 that had similar problematic statistics - e.g. the fatality rate (per attempt?) on Rainier and Denali was 15-20/100,000, and motor vehicles were also ~ 15/100,000.
But how much more time is spent in a vehicle? How many more trips? Perhaps a better comparison would be motor vehicle deaths that occurred per climbing trip? I think, in that case, it would become clear that climbing Denali or Rainier is significantly MORE dangerous than driving in a car.
Climbing is more dangerous than driving - it just is. Any attempt to pretend that these risks are the same is, in my opinion, a lack of self-awareness and choosing to be in denial.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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When you look at the statistics obviously the most dangerous thing is just being male. So females can probably jump all they want with low risk. *sarcasm.
Really IMO this discussion is about how much risk is crazy. There's different disciplines of climbing and of BASE. Some more risky than others. At least that's what I see on the OP. Is close proximity wingsuit flying crazy? Is free soloing near your redpoint limit crazy?
But really it's just common sense that most forms of BASE jumping are more dangerous than most forms of rock climbing. Not that anyone shouldn't do them, or they should be banned. But the risk of rock climbing such as sport climbing or PG rated trad climbing is much lower than the risk of even the most tame forms of BASE jumping unless you do something really dumb.
And yeah there's lots of crappy statistics out. It really needs to be broken down to be really useful. Such death per climber-days, per 1000 miles driven, per jump and so forth. But even incomplete numbers like those help give a ballpark idea of risk.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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Funny to see 99% arm chair jumpers discuss risk and BASE jumping. Tom and Mark in this discussion have really provide a solid POV.
A climber just cratered and you don't see anyone on the BASE boards talking about it?
Why? 1. It's the BASE board. 2. most jumpers aren't rock climbers; so they don't talk sh#t about topics they know nothing about.
Anyone can use statistical numbers to advocate for their cause. Life is as dangerous as you wanna make it. Just like anything else out there.
Ask me.... Bachar was a fool then. He risked it all.... for nothing.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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Oh my......so many of you have much to learn about empathy and the price loved ones have to pay for admission just to watch this game of life.
The price of admission is high, I lost my best friend to a BASE stunt or at least I saw it that way. His kids experience a life sentence of grief each and every day.
People won't remember what you did or said, but will always remember how you made them feel......don't leave them thinking for a minute you didn't think of them. Some of us are better than others on who comes first.
Safe passage.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
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Well, I never!
Bubbles thinks I am a fake!
Guess I will have to go do that trick myself. It really poses no danger. Every time it has been tried, it has succeeded. Look at the statistics man.
I'll need a GoPro though. Is the $129 model pretty good?
Edit:
Granny was indicating she clearly did not want to exit the plane. That should have ended it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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Life is especially dangerous if you become a lemming and you are caught up in the moment.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
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Bachar was a fool then. He risked it all.... for nothing.
In 1974 at the peak of my form I came down with meniere's. During those attacks all I could do was curl up in the prenatal position and puke my guts out. There never was a warning. I got so frustrated I third classed an easy climb. Just as John lost an arm without warning I started to have an attack when up a hundred feet. I managed to climb out. John didn't.
Was I a fool? Clearly. But we all are human. Best to keep that in mind.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 25, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Ban Gopros
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jstan
climber
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Jul 25, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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Two beers are heavy drinking for me. Stress is reportedly a trigger for Meniere's. To climb out I had to stare straight ahead and not change head position at all. Used the Braille technique to find holds.
As the years went by instead of having attacks I have periods where I feel oddly tired.
Nerves going through the ear are an absolute mess. Blame the fish.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
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@Potatonoggin:
Nothing dumb at all about this. And who cares if BASE jumpers don't comment on climbers? It's interesting and worthwhile to consider risk for those of us engaged in risky activities. And, as I think was mentioned above, a number of well known climbers are or have been BASE jumpers, too, (Calling CMac and Ammon!) and I think many of us feel a kinship with jumpers even if we don't jump ourselves. I know I do. It's all about the mountains, pushing ourselves, finding joy. I'm with you on that. I have a similar concern about free soloing, but let's face it: Free soloists don't die at anything close to the rate of wingsuit pilots. Anyway, this ol' Taco is just a place to think, throw around spray and ideas. Join in or bail out.
I do think, however, that everyone who really pushes the envelope, the hard solos, BASE, etc., needs to deeply consider the lives of those who love them. I think taking these extreme risks is far easier for the young before they've lost anyone close to them. It's kind of amazing for these wingsuit guys to lose so many friends and keep jumping. I guess the experience is that powerful. I'm glad its one drug I've never tasted. Perhaps part of my fascination is some deep knowledge that had I been exposed to this when I was younger, perhaps I'd be strapping on the squirrel suit myself. I came close to trying regular skydiving after seeing the first Point Break. Looking forward to the redo.
Jump, fly, climb safely, one and all.
BAd
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 25, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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^^^
Great post
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 25, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
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If some of you want to pretend BASE jumping has the same risk as climbing go right ahead and believe it. Yes climbing is risky, but BASE is much more so. Nothing wrong with taking risks, but if you are honest with yourself it'll help your longevity.
Statistics aren't the end all be all but can give a lot of insight into an activity. People who can't admit that remind me of the people who say "It won't happen to me."
And we have lost several well known climbers to BASE jumps so of course the topic will come up here. We talk about all kinds of stuff. It reminds me of another thread where people said you can't talk about first ascents in Yosemite unless you have done them. LOL. Or I guess we can't talk about Dan Osman's rope jumps because we didn't do 1000 foot rope jumps.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
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Yes climbing is risky, but BASE is much more so
Exactly my point. The argument "your sport is more dangerous than mine so I get to tell you how to do it" is dumb. PLENTY of climbers die for us to live squarely in a glass house. No one has died on U.S. soil in an MMA match, would you like them to tell all us climbers how to stop losing our friends? No? huh.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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Thanks Mark and Heisenberg.
Appreciate your thoughts in this sh1tshow.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
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Once the outcome is more dependent on luck..than skill.. I'm no longer impressed.
ie the Khumbu Icefall, ie proximity flying in any aircraft...wingsuit or reno air races.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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ie the Khumbu Icefall, ie proximity flying.
There is NO such thing as Luck! Unless your a scientist trying to predict the outcome of a roulette wheel, or the invent of the Platypus. Ha!
The Khumbu icefall was fate.
And Proximity flying SHOULD be all skill.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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And Proximity flying SHOULD be all skill.
It isn't..not even for birds. Watch them ..you will see endless screw ups. For them rarely fatal...for humans..usually fatal.
FATE?...All is that ever was or will be..time may be an illusion in a fixed universe..perhaps true. But it has little positive bearing on the perception of choice.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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Birds ain't that smart ; )
And man has been flying planes nearly perfectly for a few days now.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:39pm PT
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^^^Yeah sure .. That doesn't seem to explain some unpleasant briefings I've had about looking for torsos or teeth.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 25, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
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I guess your pointing at mans flight?
I know. I've stood watch for over 36hrs of a plane crash while waiting for the FAA to come and make a dissection. But if all the pilots mental speculation would have been confirmed, I wouldn't of had to. Jus sayin, all the answers to the scientific speculations are there to be had. IE, the wind direction and speeds, weights, heights, slopes, etc, and all the rest of the characteristics of a flight. It's solely upon the pilot as to how much data be wishes to aquire before liftoff..
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 26, 2015 - 12:27am PT
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Exactly my point. The argument "your sport is more dangerous than mine so I get to tell you how to do it" is dumb. PLENTY of climbers die for us to live squarely in a glass house. No one has died on U.S. soil in an MMA match, would you like them to tell all us climbers how to stop losing our friends? No? huh.
I can only assume by you quoting me, then posting that you are addressing me. It seems you and maybe some other posters on this thread seem to read things into my posts I have never said. And in fact you cut off the next sentence of my post "Nothing wrong with taking risks, but if you are honest with yourself it'll help your longevity." Show me where I have said people shouldn't BASE jump or even do advanced BASE jumps like close proximity wingsuit flying. I am just trying to have an intelligent conversation about the risks/rewards involved and to me the most interesting thing which is why people need to push the limits, but it seems some people are too defensive to do that. I've had plenty of people call me crazy for climbing. It never bothers me. If someone calls you crazy for doing something and it bothers you I'd wonder if you are really comfortable with the decisions you are making.
I think hard free solos and advanced BASE jumps are badass and I'm glad people are out there doing both. It takes a mentality only a few have. It also brings to mind big wave surfing and freestyle motocross. To advance all those sports you really have to have a ton of skill and bravery.
But when people start downplaying the risk (as opposed to justifying it) they are much more likely to make bad decisions.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:05am PT
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Sometimes the the sh#t just gets too obvious and you have to call it out. loseing 8 people in two months in a sport with only a few thousand participants is pretty obvious.
The Everest debecals are pretty obvious..
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 26, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Yes BASE and solo are riskier than climbing. Climbing is riskier than other things. Things are risky. It is up to people to decide if they want those risks. Is that you're point? That's what I've been barking this whole time.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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To be honest, I'd probably do some BASE before I'd get on that Everest cue. To face death in a storm because of an hours-long traffic jam is just nutz. And this sort of thing is happening on K2! I'll stick to my little rock climbs and Sierra back country, thank you.
BAd
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 26, 2015 - 02:48pm PT
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That's a good summation of my position GDavis. But my point was more to have a discussion around how and why we push the limits in something that already has a lot of inherent risk.
Climbing has inherent risk. Free soloing makes it much more risky.
A regular BASE jump or wingsuit jump doesn't seem out of control risky to me. But when you start doing jumps hanging on to 6 other people you increase the chance of something going wrong exponentially. Again I'm not saying anyone shouldn't do those things if they want to. I'm just wondering about the mentality and thought process that leads to these "stunts".
Watching the video in the first post makes me concerned. They haven't even worked out what they are going to do on the 6 way jump until they are on the platform about to jump? And it seems like they rush through it and it's not very clear what they are going to do. Seems like you'd want to work that out on flat ground somewhere, then review it one more time on the platform right before you jump.
They throw the guy off, which I know would be fun, but there's a much greater chance of error in that vs. someone jumping by themselves. e.g. if the guy holding the arms lets go too late and the guy hits his head on the edge, or he just gets thrown with a spin and can't get stable in time to pitch hit pilot chute.
I guess the biggest thing I wonder about is complacency. And yes it happens in rock climbing all the time and sometimes I'm guilty of it. But it seems the higher the risk the more you should be careful and vigilant. Sometimes you see people doing cutting edge things and it looks like they are just winging it.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 26, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
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Have we actually understood why we do these things?
Often we presume we do it just for the adrenalin rush. There is nothing in this idea advancing the survival imperative. On the other hand consider how good it feels to go through something challenging but all the time being in control. The danger is managed. What does that mean? It means one has demonstrated mastery over that space and it is yours. Now this does have implications regarding the survival imperative. When this is the case you hear, "No, I was in no danger." So much for technical rock climbing and even squirrel suiting. If one is practiced, knows what the air can do to you, and know your reflex times, you can be on top of it.
Put rockfall, and perhaps weather in the equation and you have something new. Sometimes. If you can move like blazes your exposure time is reduced. That's control of a sort. We aren't talking Russian roulette.
The central element in all of these activities is not absence of control. It is what has to be done to exert control in the most unlikely of situations. The kinds of situations you can survive will have expanded beyond all expectation.
The lucky ones realize they aren't actually on top of it - in time.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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John,
I've tried to make that point before here. Objective vs. Subjective danger, using climbing as an example.
As for being in control, almost all of these people are in control. You typically learn how to fly your body at the skydiving DZ, where conditions are pretty safe. You can do a short, 3 second delay off of a low cliff without freefall experience, but after you pass about 8 seconds, you are in total control of your body, and have to know how to fly it. Turning left and right, flying forward or backward, adjusting your fall rate, it is all best learned at the DZ. The best skydivers can do incredible things with that ability. You need to know the basics to do El Cap safely.
Sort of like learning on routes with good pro on perfect rock and perfect weather before doing a big wall. A big wall is just a ton of normal aid pitches piled on top of each other. The inability to cope with that leads to most bails. It is all in the head.
I thought about it, objective danger, and looked back at one route I did that had a lot of objective danger. It wasn't super hard, almost a trade route if you followed the original route. We took a direct line left of the Serac, harder but safer, but the lower part of the route was directly beneath the Serac.
It is one of the 3 big famous ice faces above the Argentier glacier, on the east side of the Mt. Blanc Massif. We wanted to do at least one. So, it being a dry year, and the Droites and the Courtes not being in, we did the Triolet.
There is a big serac about 2/3 of the way up that route, and it calved every few weeks. When we approached it at midnight, there were these giant ice boulders strewn all over the glacier, from the calving Serac. In the moonlight, it was a spooky experience. I've still not seen anything like it.
So that Serac goes off regularly, totally sweeping anything beneath it. You could never survive. Everyone knows about it. You can't predict when it will go, so all you can do is climb at night when things are better frozen, and go fast, like you had a fire under your ass. The thing had killed people. Later on, a famous English guide died on it, along with his client, and I've heard that it isn't that popular these days.
A route like that would never be done in Yosemite. Imagine Boot Flake falling off once a month, or once ever six months, sweeping the lower half of the Nose clean. Nobody would do it. Plain old rock climbing is pretty safe, actually. Despite the spooky stories about run out "death" routes, not many actually died on them.
In Chamonix, it wasn't that big of a deal. You always had to deal with rock fall, and people died there almost every day. It totally changed my perspective of climbing. I mean, it wasn't worth DYING for. Although I climbed for another decade, more or less, I spent most of my time BASE jumping. The odds were better than alpinism, and plain old rock climbing seemed more of a game than a sport. Chamonix really put a twist on my head. It soured my motives for climbing.
That is objective danger. There isn't much of it in Yosemite or most other sunny rock climbing areas, but from then on, it was like a secret that only I knew.
The winter after the Cham summer, I started skydiving just enough to do El Cap. That was all I wanted to do. No BASE career. Just a jump from El Cap.
The year before going to Cham, I was halfway up Mescalito when Tom Cosgriff jumped right over us. The roar was incredible. It was probably the coolest thing I'd ever seen. We had a perfect view. He opened right out in front of us and we hollered back and forth.Now THAT was something I wanted to do. A few climbers had dabbled in BASE, but none of them went whole hog into it. Just getting info on it was tough. No internet back then. No cellphones. On top of that, there were maybe 15 or 20 hardcore constantly active jumpers in the whole world. I met up with them soon enough, and they taught me a lot.
Where there is a will, there is a way, and two skydivers took me under their wing in exchange for my Yosemite beta. They taught me how to fall flat and stable, how to turn, and how to do a decent track. You don't need to be a world class tracker to get hundreds of feet from El Cap. Anyway, the next spring, off we went, and we jumped El Cap. It was one of the more eye-opening experiences of my life.
That's how it all started. Watching Cosgriff tracking 200 feet from the wall directly above us, silhouetted by the dusky sky.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
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As per the second part of JStan's post, the mastery part, I will try to put it in perspective.
If you jump all of the time, it becomes fairly routine. A parachute is not that complicated. It really only has 2 handles. One to toss the pilot chute, and the other to cutaway the main if you land in rushing water or trees. After it opens, you only have one steering line on each side. Mastery of them requires some effort, though.
K2, per participant, is far more dangerous than wingsuit BASE. Unlike K2, wingsuiters might have a thousand flights. Remember that number.
In skydiving, you get an award for every 1000 jumps you pile up. It takes a lot of work to make a thousand jumps in only a few years. You can only pack fast enough to do about 7 per day, and they are expensive.
Skydivers also keep track of their freefall time. Awards are given out when you reach 12 hours, and others for each 12 hours on top of that. A Cessna takes you to 8500 feet. A 30 second skydive. A turbine aircraft takes you to 14,000 feet. 70 seconds or so of freefall.
We used to add up our BASE freefall time as well.
If you look at some of these super experienced wingsuiters, they get, say, 60 seconds out of a flight. I know that some of them go beyond 2 minutes, but lets just call it 60 seconds.
In 750 jumps, that adds up to 12 hours of wingsuit BASE flying. Just think about that during your day. 12 hours, and perhaps more. Imagine that. 12 solid hours of flying terrain. The point here is that some of these deaths have been coming from this caliber of jumper. Super experienced. Knows more about it than I do in the tip of my pinky.
It may seem like a stunt to some of you, but I can assure you that it isn't. This is a maturing sport with some very experienced players.
Like most things, people keep pushing it. When you push it to the edge of the envelope, you can get burned. That is what we are seeing now, with the deaths of very experienced flyers.
A jumper might look at what Alex Honnold did, free-soloing Half Dome, as crazy. Most of us climbers don't, because we understand his ability. There was nothing on Half Dome that really approached his ability. He soloes The Phoenix for Christ's sake, something that I find absolutely mind blowing.
Joe public might think that it was some insane stunt, but we have all soloed stuff, just not that hard. What are we going to say when he free soloes El Cap? You know that he has thought of it, and if not him, then it will be the next generation that does it.
I really think that these wingsuit fatalities will get sorted out. Old school BASE fatalities all contributed to the knowledge of BASE, making it safer for those who follow.
These days, the gear is much better than what I had in the old days, but the objects haven't changed that much with Straight BASE. It is a lot safer. Look at a guy like Hank. He BASE jumps constantly. He uses good gear and is very experienced.
I don't think that it is the "adrenaline rush" that drives jumpers. Jumps actually begin to feel a little routine after the 10th time. We played around, upping the game a little. That is subjective danger. Risk that you add on purpose. Like doing a double gainer off of a 450 foot object, or doing 2 way's or whatever. That is just human nature.
I will say that a nice terminal object like El Cap or Half Dome is an amazing experience. You are totally aware, and you aren't scared. You might be before you step off, but once you are in the air, all synapses are completely focused. These were some of the most amazing experiences of my life. I never felt an adrenaline rush, like you get on a ride at the amusement park. It was much deeper. Total awareness. It can't be beat.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 29, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
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There is NO such thing as Luck! Unless your a scientist trying to predict the outcome of a roulette wheel, or the invent of the Platypus. Ha!
The Khumbu icefall was fate.
THIS is the big danger in all dangerous sports: Magical Thinking.
there IS luck. Were you in the Khumbu THAT day, or the day before??
Were you on that flake when it gave way, or the day before, when it did not?
You got hit by a gust of wind, or you did not?
There is a lot of luck involved, and we try to mitigate it with skill, gear, experience, etc.
However, I agree that when luck becomes the real-time predominant issue as to whether one succeeds, and failure=death, it's time to think of another sport.
Nonetheless, there will always be those who will do it. I guess that I think that those may be among the best of us in some way, and they will often be lost. It's probably always been so, when the maps were illustrated with monsters.......
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Jul 29, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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At the point the luck outweighs the skill it becomes a "gamble", which can be a type of game.
Not that I believe these guys aren't skilled.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jul 29, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
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BASE104, and yet, you stopped.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
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I stopped for two reasons.
First, I jumped a big 1500 foot antenna with a really fast skydiving main, a Sabre 150. That was stupid. Those things are so fast that you can hit an object without a prayer of turning it around. Still, it was a tower jump, and the wind blows right through those things, blowing you away.
I opened with a 180 off, and before I could think, I was flying through the wires. I managed to steer through them without hitting anything, but I landed on the wrong side of the antenna.
A series of bad judgements led to my almost getting whacked that day. So I was getting lazy.
Second: I had a 2 year old son, that I had to care for and raise back home. That simply became my priority. I even gave up skydiving, which is safe as hell, just to save money. College fund, bought a house, you name it. For the first point in my life, I was responsible in a very real way for someone other than myself.
It wasn't a difficult decision. I missed it now and then, but not much. I watched my buddies go on to have long and safe BASE careers.
The only friend I had who died BASE jumping was the guy two weeks ago. I used to skydive with him, and he was the best.
I don't regret it. I could still have adventures. Just more tame. I started doing these mega hikes in the remotest country that I could find. It led to that one year when I spent the whole summer walking across ANWR and then, after getting a new pair of boots flown in, turning around and walking back via a different route.
THAT was cool. No adrenaline rush. It was just perfect.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 29, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
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The Everest avalanche was predictable.
They just got in the mindset that because it didn't go for the last twenty years, it was safe. They could see the hanging glacier/seracs.
The thing is, the MORE years that go by without an icefall just makes it more likely that it WILL go off.
Kind of like playing blackjack, winning three hands in a row, and instead of taking your lucky winnings and leaving, you continue to put it all down on more bets.
With that avalance, it was simple physics. Sooner or later that would go. The difference is that nowadays, the south col route beneath it is covered with people during season. So more people would be killed. It was only a matter of time.
Just like it was only a matter of time with that Serac on the Triolet.
Geez. Do you think it is safe to build a house under it?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 29, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
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Luck? We were going to camp last Thursday at the base of the Northwest Face of Half Dome. It would be stupid to bivi at the base. 25 years ago though, it didn't bother me at all.
25 years ago you didn't have to buckle your seatbelt or wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. BASE jumpers need an encapsulation air bag device. Get Elon to develop one. Meanwhile fly safely and pay some attention to probability.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jul 29, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
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I quit roadracing for the same reason Base104 gave up his passion. I applaud his decision.
Terminal velocity speed is the most powerful sensory addiction one can have whether in the air or on the ground, IMHO.
I gave up my lifelong passion of motorcycle roadracing after a crash but, the real reason I sold all my gear, bikes and equipment needed to race, was that I knew I would get back out there eventually and I needed to stay off the track. There was no way I could afford to replace 20 years of accumulated gear.
The main reason was 4 children under the age of 10 (at the time) that I had a greater responsibility to.
It is sad when I hear about jumpers, racers or climbers dying in their respective sports but my sadness is often for the loved ones they leave behind.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 29, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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Base. thanks for your stories.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 29, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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Pud. I street raced when I was younger. Saw my best friend in two pieces on fire one day. Parked the crotch rocket and never rode it again.. had hundreds of close calls before that. High sided @ 110mph once and it was just blind luck that I was on a sweeping right hander when the engine seized so I was able to slide up the middle and into the other lane that was also empty by blind luck.. at the time I thought that wreck was pretty cool... a little over a year later Jack head on into a car... I always figured that if we grew up near a real track and had the funds to race on a real track that Jack would probobly be alive today instead of dieing violently a few weeks before his 20th birthday. As it happened he saved my life that day. One of us had to go. You can only ride the streets at track speeds for so long before something happens where your skill is insufficient and lady luck runs out...............
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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Thanks, BASE and Tradman. Those are some incredible stores and insights. As a non-jumper, it's so hard to imagine getting bored with jumping El Cap! I know that Rick Sylvester hung up his chute when it "became routine," as he said. Not bad advice. I've dodged some rock fall and missed avalanches, too. The big mountains are dangerous for sure. I'm pretty happy with solid rock climbing these days.
BAd
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 29, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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hey there say, base104.. say, thanks for sharing your story, and also for sharing this... your later decisions and why...
for another life, one that came from your own 'life' , this is sweet,
the most wonderful thing in the world, is to have that young life hug you each day! and not needing the extra burdens, as, there are many in life,
already, that we must take care to use caution with--good decision and good for you both:
(from your first reason, listed) ...A series of bad judgements led to my almost getting whacked that day. So I was getting lazy.
Second: I had a 2 year old son, that I had to care for and raise back home. That simply became my priority. I even gave up skydiving, which is safe as hell, just to save money. College fund, bought a house, you name it. For the first point in my life, I was responsible in a very real way for someone other than myself.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Jul 30, 2015 - 01:31am PT
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I really appreciate the input that BASE104 has added to this thread - really interesting stuff. Thanks.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
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I'm not a BASE jumper but I do paraglide. I've skydived some before I got into paragliding. I've had dreams of BASE jumping, but for me at this moment the risks are more than I want to endure. Paragliding suits me fine. As that very beautiful Italian model who skydives and BASE jumps said, "paragliding too boring." Well, it suits me just fine. Perhaps she should have gotten into paragliding aerobatics, and then she probably wouldn't have said that.
Anyway, it seems that proximity flying is the crack cocaine of wingsuit/BASE jumping. Seems that there is just so much there you can't control. Now in paragliding we love to fly the cliffs and terrain, however our wings are flying fully open already, we are flying at slow speeds, and we can ridge soar or thermal the cliffs to ascend. Sunlight on any ground heats it, and the ground in turn heats the air, the heated air rises. Thermals are constantly coming off the ground and off vertical rock faces. The micrometeorology of cliff flying is subtle. We are usually always crabbing across cliff faces and ridges slightly pointed away so that at any moment we can fly away from the cliff. Not so with proximity wingsuit flying. A thermal, a puff of rising air can lift the outside wing of wingsuit easily it would seem to me and that slight movement will send them into the cliff nearly instantly depending on how close they are.
It would seem to me wingsuit/BASE jumpers have to come to grips with the micrometeorology of proximity flying and realize you have to back away from the terrain. You cannot control micrometeorology and flying that close to cliffs and at those speeds there is no room for error. You can't always control it and you don't know when it will happen.
We have all felt the affects and power of thermals in aircraft. They call it turbulence. There are massive updrafts and downdrafts associated with thermals. Look what that energy can do to a commercial aircraft! Think what strong thermal can do with a wingsuit proximity flyer in the blink of an eye.
When I'm flying in commercial aircrafts and all of a sudden the jet is lifting significantly, I have the habit of shouting out "Turn, turn core that thermal!" My kids just look at me and shake their heads. Lol
Anyway the BASE/wingsuit community is gonna have to figure this all out. Seems to me too many really experienced BASE jumpers are dying now. With the equipment and knowledge base now it seems it shouldn't be happening at this level. The difference is proximity flying. If I were doing it, I'd use the wingsuit to fly away and go for record distance and time aloft flights. Fly away from the mountains and cliffs, like Dean Potter did off the Eiger. I wouldn't do proximity flying. Too many variables that can't be controlled.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 31, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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Beware of accidentally succeeding on a route above your ability. Success tends to breed ambition. The next time, a route of similar difficulty and danger may deliver the hard lesson that a single success at a high-level may represent luck and not skill. Learn to recognize when you lucked out and when you've met the challenge. Without this understanding, such a victory will feed contempt for easy routes on forgiving mountains. Contempt leads to a casual attitude, which results in carelessness and ultimate failure on a grand scale.
Mark Twight
I don't see why this doesn't apply equally to BASE, except that the forces, speeds, and consequences involved are even more so.
The consequences of starting up a wall beyond one's skill mostly means stopping and going back down. But for BASE, there is no going back. It is death.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Jul 31, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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This seems to boil down to...
"BUT I'M FUQN FLYING!!!"
and we aren't.
The first hit is free. the last one costs a lot more.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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Well put, Handjam.
BAd
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Endorphins and adrenaline are the most dangerous drugs.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Klimmer's post pretty much nailed it, but look at modern paragliding. With those acrobatic wings, they now do rolls, loops, you name it. So even with paragliding, there are people pushing it.
I still wish that Hankster or Ammon would chime in. They are both very active jumpers. I'm a fossil.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Hey Klimmer. Do you honestly think that base jumpers are unaware that micrometereological phenomenoms exist? It's part and parcel of wingsuit proximty flying and taken very seriously.
And although you sseem happy just soaring around in a big ass paraglider that's really not representative of the PG community at large. Go to Chamonix or Lake Annecy any day of the week and you won't see many people flying with the wing level for more than a second or two at a time. And lets not forget the proximity flying branch of paragliding
(Edited a million times to try and clickify link)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Thanks for all your words, BASE104, you present a good perspective.
I pushed my limits for a while, flipping off of cliffs on skis. It was amazing to expand my perception of what's possible, and I escaped with a paltry twenty broken bones, most of them being more of a hindrance than a game changer.
Fear, and adrenalin, were the most powerful things I've ever felt. Sticking a fifty foot backflip into terrain that you can't f*#k up on changed my life.
I feel like I know a little of what drives these jumpers, though what they are doing is too dangerous for me.
Miles D raping off of a rope in a kayak on the bridge in Auburn, then pulling his chute, was one of the craziest things I'd ever seen, but that guy is super gifted. He had it in the bag, despite the fear he was showing.
Just my thoughts.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2015 - 06:40am PT
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Wow, Biotch, that Eiffel Tower jump is amazing. Clearly the dude had never tested it in any reasonable way--like off a bridge or cliff at lower altitude into water. Watching him psyche up...yikes. Darwin award winner for sure. Classic how the guys measure the depth of the impact crater!
BAd
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I just had to click on the Top 10 inventions that Killed their Inventors...
Pinto in a wingsuit!?!?
Now THAT was "begging for trouble"
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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The ego is a strong force.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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It works both ways, your ego can also hold you back from realizing your ultimate potential.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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JTM, that 'Pinto' has its fuel in the wings so no worries about being rear-ended.
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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It works both ways, your ego can also hold you back from realizing your ultimate potential.
True. Here I was just referring to Jeb. I don't get the same impression from all BASE jumpers.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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One could engineer just as tricky a situation right over yonder on the 805 freeway. Wouldn't cost nearly as much. Not enough adrenalin? There's always the night-time version.
Quack QuACK
Good thing mama D wasn't smoking.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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And if you quit and get a normal job, what's that going to do for Nya?"
Feed, clothe and shelter her? Is that a bad thing?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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That was an amazing snipet, zBrown. My normal breathing was interrupted at least four or five times watching that!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 10, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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Hurray! Ammon is here.
I come from the olden days of BASE. Yes, we jumped many of the same objects, but the gear has changed so much. It might not really look like it, but the history of BASE has also had a progression of better and better gear.
Today, skydiving mains are small and very fast. In my day, we jumped a lot of 220 ft2 7 cells, which are close to modern BASE canopies. We were really used to them, because we skydived all day and jumped antennas all night on the same canopies. Today, BASE canopies are generally a little bigger (I think), and have all sorts of improvements leading to better inflation and landing characteristics.
Different canopies had their own personalities. Some would get line twists. Those were out. We picked out mains that opened fast and on heading, and then used those for BASE.
Here is a good video on what the old days were like. I jumped with all of these guys except Mike Allen. They were all funny as hell. The quiet blonde guy with glasses was from England. One of their first jumpers. Certainly he did the most back then.
It was a small community. Anyway, watch the whole video and you will get to see a lineover cleared with the new line release mod, and some other funny stuff. Two of these guys were my main partners. I used to do longer delays from Auburn than they are here, but I know it is still popular today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqH_JYM0WIM
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Aug 10, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jhonny-florez-colombian-wingsuit-flyer-and-hollywood-stuntman-who-achieved-a-world-record-by-jumping-from-37265ft-10447665.html
Jhonny Florez: Colombian wingsuit flyer and Hollywood stuntman who achieved a world record by jumping from 37,265ft
Sunday 09 August 2015
At the age of 32, Jhonathan Flórez, widely known as Jhonny, died doing what he loved best: flying like a bird under his own power at speeds of up to 200mph. One of the world’s fastest and longest-distance wingsuit flyers – who skydive and glide using body suits with winged arms – the Colombian daredevil slammed into the side of Mount Titlis in Switzerland while testing a new suit for the upcoming world championships in China. His family said he is believed to have died instantly.
Throughout Latin America, Flórez was known as el hombre pájaro, “the bird man”, a skydiver, wingsuit flyer and Base jumper – the latter acronym referring to those who leap from buildings, antennae, spans (bridges) or earth (mountains). He had a reputation as a “proximity” flier for gliding as close as possible to the landscape.
In 2013, he was crowned champion at the annual event of the World Wingsuit League on Tianmen Mountain in Zhangjiajie, China. “There are no Olympic medals in my sport, but I feel I got my gold for myself and my country, Colombia,” he said. (A rival wingsuit World Cup was inaugurated at Netheravon airfield, Wiltshire, in May this year, hosted by the Army Parachute Association and organised by the World Air Sports Federation, FAI).
Flórez held two world records, set on the same flight in April 2012 over La Guajira in his native Colombia: the longest time in the air in a wingsuit, nine minutes and six seconds; and the jump from the highest altitude, 37,265 feet (from an aircraft, starting at -45C and using an oxygen tank). He formerly held speed and distance records, but both currently belong to Japan’s Shin Ito, who has reached a speed of 225.6 mph and travelled almost 18 miles in a wingsuit.
Flórez won a coveted place on the elite Red Bull Air Force, a team of skydivers, Base jumpers, wingsuit flyers and ski-Base jumpers (those who ski off mountains before opening their parachutes). With the team, he “buzzed” the famous Christ the Redeemer statue above Rio de Janeiro. He and Red Bull teammate Cedric Dumont of Belgium became the first people to fly unaided, but for their wingsuits, over the famous Nazca Lines in Peru, believed to have been carved out by the Nazca civilisation around the 5th century AD, and now a Unesco World Heritage Site.
Flórez scared more than a few of his fellow Colombians who had gathered around the iconic Monserrate church on the mountain which dominates their capital, Bogotá, when he and his English pal, James Boole of Birmingham, jumped from a helicopter in 2013 and swooshed past the church tower at 100mph.
Jhonathan Flórez Patiño (the Christian name spelling is common in Latin America because the “Jh” produces the sound of the soft English-style J, rather than the more guttural Spanish J, or jota) was born on 3 April 1983 in Medellin, the picturesque Colombian city whose name was long sullied by the murderous cocaine cartel of Pablo Escobar. Flórez was only 10 when Escobar was killed by the Colombian police and Medellin gradually ceased to be the most dangerous city in the world. As a joke, after taking up skydiving, he called one of his teams “the Colombian Cartel”.
In his latter years, he was in demand in Hollywood, both as an aerial stuntman and as a cameraman with a POV camera attached to his helmet. Shortly before his fatal accident, he had been stunt-skydiving for an upcoming remake of the popular 1991 action movie Point Break. In the original, the FBI character, played by Keanu Reeves, skydives from a plane, without a parachute, to chase the bad guy played by Patrick Swayze. In the new movie, due out at Christmas, Flórez is in action doubling for one of the new lead actors.
“Before I jump, of course I am nervous,” Flórez said shortly before he died. “But the moment I jump, I have the biggest smile on my face.”
Jhonny Flórez lived the last few years of his life in Sacramento, California, with his wife, Kaci, a yoga instructor. But the couple spent most of their time travelling the world to extreme sports events and competitions. They had no children. He is survived by Kaci and several brothers and sisters.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 10, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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Ammon, that Men's Journal article caught the spirit of it by delving into motivations.
I gave up climbing and jumping when my son was about two. I couldn't stop thinking about what would happen if I bounced.
I remember one time where a haulbag tag line got stuck, and I had to rap down in the dark. I had to rap down the tag line as far as I could and then I just cut the damn thing.
Doing the changeover in the dark spooked me. The tie in for the tag line was at the top of the pig, and it was a mess of attached gear, a water bottle, and the like. It was a mess.
I remember thinking to myself: "What the hell am I doing? I gotta kid at home..."
Then I had a close call where I flew through the wires of an antenna because I was using an insanely fast canopy, not made for BASE.
It sucked, though. I was never very good at anything, but it was always an adventure to me, and I was always thinking about or having adventures. Soloing a lot, BASE, you get it. After I quit I felt like I was going to crawl out of my skin, so I started doing these long solo mega hikes in country where people just don't go, like Cabeza Prieta or the Brooks Range. A good dose every year helped.
I've just worked every day since my last Alaskan trip. Those trips were expensive and I have to worry about bills and mortgages. I spend my day working in front of an array of monitors analyzing well logs which look like a zillion squiggly lines to a lay person.
I really miss the adventure. My boy just graduated from college in May, so I have been thinking of a change of lifestyle. Getting some adventure back.
For whatever reason, I needed my dose of Dopamine to be happy. I look back and feel like I was self medicating by having adventures. There is no doubt that these things make me happy, and without them, even with all of the joy and pride of being sort of responsible, it felt like I cut out a piece of my heart.
I dunno if I can go BASE again. I'm not sure if my mind is still good for it. I would have to skydive a lot first, which is expensive. I still have the house payment to make. Damn. I'm trapped. And it sucks.
I've been pulling out the maps again. Looking for a place to go. Those experiences keep the monkey off of my back, but damn. Once you start feeding the monkey, you can't just stop. It is worse than any addiction.
For some people, that hungry monkey never goes away.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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Hey, BASE, congrats on your son graduating from college. That's a big deal.
Re. adventure: Well, you're talking to the addicted on this forum, of course. Get back into climbing. Sport, trad, done at a reasonable level, are pretty darn safe and as much juice as I can take.
Rock on.
BAd
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
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Thanks for the introspective post BASE104. We all deal with those thoughts on some level. I can really relate. I have 4 kids. Still climbing a lot, but choosing trade routes, bolted belays and less committing missions in the past few years. I hate being out there with fear in my gut and a nagging desire to go home, despite six months of planning and stoke pre-trip. Climbing (or any outdoor adventure) should be fun, freeing and full of joy first and foremost.
Scott
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Aug 10, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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Thanks for sharing 104/MH! I know your feelings well. Anytime you want to climb or jump, let me know. It would be an honor and quite the full circle with the past we have with each other.
There's so much anti-base jumping on this site. Nobody is going to argue that jumping is more dangerous than common rock climbs. If I pushed jumping like I did/do climbing I probably wouldn't be here right now. So, I'm satisfied with the style of jumping that makes me feel comfortable and learned to listen to that inner voice when it doesn't seem right. I have walked away from MANY exits that others felt comfortable with.
I DO NOT want to die jumping (or climbing). I have family, a beautiful and amazing gf. I have SO much to live for. But, I will continue to follow my dreams, to do the things that make me happy.
Would people rather we live miserable lives because we aren't fulfulling our full potential?
IMO, that is more devastating than being killed jumping, after living as happily and rich with experience as you possibly can.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 10, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
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I think a lot of people here hate on others who choose different paths mainly due to their own insecurities. Personally I celebrate my lack of balls for such things! Incredible videos...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 10, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
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Jumping seems like an incredible thing to do. Flying seems incredibly cool. flying as close as you can to solid objects at 100+MPH seem like a real bad idea. Kind of allong the same lines as trying to see who can hang their portaledge off the smallest single piece and make it through the night. No hate just an acceptance of reality.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 10, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
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Ammon
If I pushed jumping like I did/do climbing I probably wouldn't be here right now. So, I'm satisfied with the style of jumping that makes me feel comfortable and learned to listen to that inner voice when it doesn't seem right. I have walked away from MANY exits that others felt comfortable with.
So well said. Sorry if my comments in the past have seemed negative on BASE or unaware of the need to confront risk in life. I am not negative on base or wingsuiting I think it's awesome and beautiful. Another avenue to experience something fantastic and almost unimaginable. Experiences that not only make it worth waking up every morning, but drive one to hardly be able to sleep for the excited anticipation of the next day or even months.
What bothers me is the lure of pushing too far...there are limits where one goes far beyond the controllable and relies much on luck. These areas exist in all disciplines. Some are not so honest with themselves in this realm.
I'm not impressed in the slightest by those who regularly venture into that realm. Not that they care..but..it just makes me sad.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 14, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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This is a very interesting thread. For me risk management has always been something that has been in the back of my mind with any of the things that I like to do wether, riding any one of my three motorcycles, surfing, climbing whatever. II got married in the early nineties in the prime of my climbing career. I never had any intention of slowing down in fact my x wife encouraged me to climb. After 5 years of marriage we had a child and a lot of people in my life thought I was selfish to keep doing some of the bigger routes I was doing at the time. I told all my distracters that they don't understand that it is just who I am. It wasn't until I was Ice climbing and had a very close call of getting smoked from a chunk of ice that was the size of a city bus that I had second thoughts about leaving a small child behind with no father. For the first time I saw the line and decided that risk needed to be managed for reasons beyond myself. The incident really gave me some serious reflection of the amount of risk I should accept with the things I like to play with. Now as we all know what I consider risky and the amount I am willing to accept compared to you or anybody else can be totally different. I have always been fascinated with Skydiving and BASE. I never stepped up for a couple reasons, risk management being one. I didn't want to start something I new I would want to experience on a level that could jepordise the well being of my family. Well now I am 51 years old I am divorced, my daughter is a 19 year old young adult and very much on her way of taking care of her self. Last April I went through AFF and I just did my 60th skydive the other day. I have my own rig and I am so Stoked to be a B licensed Skydiver. Yes I have goals of fixed objects when the time is right. It is just who I am and I do not want to go through life not experiencing the things and desires I dream about. Am I a selfish person Yes in some regards, but phuck it the time feels right. If I don't do it now I may never, and I am not going to let life pass by without experiencing this desire. BASE104 and Elcappirate thank you so much for all your insight with this subject
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 14, 2015 - 10:34am PT
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That's it man, its all about making our own path and hopefully we can learn from others not only to take proper steps but to be inspired to see those steps through and live the life we need to be happy.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 14, 2015 - 11:56am PT
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I also would like to add that having a child was a choice I made knowing that I did not want to experience life without offspring. It is as important and enjoyable to me as anything else I do. My daughter is the Baum!!!!
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
/ ne'er–do–well
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Aug 14, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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T2 was making a great case for lowering risk, then suddenly embraces BASE (gateway drug to wingsuit/ proximity flight). WTF?
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 15, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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I agree with you Cragman. I know there is still a need for a father figure through out all of life, I guess I just figure that the time is more appropriate for me now than earlier on. And don't get me wrong I am not running out and recklessly jumping off cliffs because she can vote now. I am enjoying the skydiving thing at the moment. In fact I took her down for a jump with me
Does this make me a bad dad for giving her, her first hit?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 15, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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BASE jumpers talk like meth-heads. blah-blah-blah
Hey y'all...watch this.
Jump away geniuses.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 15, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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Hey Flop Phuck. Your analogy and comment is about as pathetic as you are. Ramble on kook!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 15, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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go do what you love. splattertards
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 16, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
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RESPECT!!! Particularly for the fallen.
My suggestion to some individuals here...take the time, someday, to read through the BFL. See what their friends have to say about them. Individuals you know little or nothing about. Reconsider what you have posted here. Then take one last look at their pictures, before passing judgement.
Who wouldn't want to experience at least one flight like this? What if you could tomorrow, witrh 100% assurance that you would walk away safe and sound? It will happen only in my dreams though (lol). He had accumulated about 4,000 flights a year bfore this one. Listen to this man. If you had the opportunity, while he was alive, would you repeat what youvsaid here to his face?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jhonathon Florez (04/03/1983 ~ 07/03/2015) RIP
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Aug 16, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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I hope that's a typo.
4000 flights a year is almost 11 a day???
That seems more like a grind than a passion play.
I don't think I would take the same things away from climbing if I climbed 4000 pitches a year.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 16, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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In a video that was made a year before this one, he said at that time, he had made somewhere between 3,000 to 4,000 wingsuit flights. I have no idea how many years it took him to do that. And, likewise, how many he made in the subsiquent and final year of his life. This video was made recently. Sorry about the poor grammar on my part. I should have said something like, 'A year befor this video was made, he had accumulated around 4,000 wingsuit flights." ...my bad!!!
EDIT: Note that I didn't stipulate as to what % were BASE vs aircraft. Dunno. I would venture to say that in the process he contributed valuable input into the development of safer, more effecient wingsuits, canopies, etc and to the sport in general.
edit: further review suggests that he was specifically referring to BASE jumps.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
/ ne'er–do–well
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Aug 16, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
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We've now seen proximity flight established in Yosemite.
Hopefully the sport can rise to the occasion, and come out of it with a home run instead of a black eye.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 17, 2015 - 06:11am PT
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Sorry about the poor grammar on my part.
Don't worry, proximity may break your bones, but poor grammar will never hurt you.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 18, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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There are many opportunities to find pleasure in life. I think that it is important to find sources of pleasure that don't so seriously risk the gift that is life.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 18, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
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Most of us on this forum have embraced the idea that an element of risk enhances their lives. We have climbing as a common link and many of us choose other activities with risk: motorcycles, dirt bikes, skydiving, base jumping, back country skiing, mountain biking, white water kayaking and rafting, surfing, long board speed skating, binge drinking, unprotected sex....you name it.
Let's all get on with what we do....we know the activity and have accessed the risk/reward ratio to our satisfaction....and, let's allow others to do the same with activities familiar to them but not to us.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Aug 18, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
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^
Well said Jim. Honest. True and Genuine.
We're all tourist finding our way home. Let others find happiness in their Journey as we meet our Destination.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Aug 18, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Jim how can you say that? The posters on SuperTard have every right to talk sh#t about something they know nothing about, it makes them feel so much better about their own small lives. Take Cragman and Flip Flop for instance, men with faces so Pious that Jesus would gladly eat a burrito off of them. I mean really JD, to each their own?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 18, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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Flip Flop for instance, men with faces so Pious that Jesus would gladly eat a burrito off of them.
You must have hit your head pretending you were BASE jumping off the top bunk.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Aug 18, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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Flip
Have you lost someone recently to BASE?
If so, I can understand your anger.
It's probably natural to hate BASE for taking your friend, causing you to deride the activity and those who still choose to do it knowing the risks.
If not...
You're just coming of as an insensitive d¡ckhead troll.
Feel fortunate that those in Internet land don't choose to slam you for your life choices during your dark times.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 18, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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The posters on SuperTard have every right to talk sh#t about something they know nothing about,
I'd say most here have a passing familiarity with risk and it doesn't take a genius to decipher
the rather acute risk involved in BASE. What never ceases to amaze me is the condescension
accorded those who dare to express conflicting opinions here.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 18, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
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What never ceases to amaze me is the condescension
accorded those who dare to express conflicting opinions here.
Please elaborate Reilly
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
/ ne'er–do–well
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Aug 18, 2015 - 09:42pm PT
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 18, 2015 - 10:20pm PT
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Let's all get on with what we do....we know the activity and have accessed the risk/reward ratio to our satisfaction....and, let's allow others to do the same with activities familiar to them but not to us.
Directive to the mindless.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 18, 2015 - 11:27pm PT
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Lets see here..How to make the most dangerous flying conditions possible.
proximity flight check
Mountain flying ..check
High altitude..check
engines off .. check
negative climb rate..check
low yaw rate..check
damn..only thing missing is IFR and icing conditions
Only thing going for these guys is the required landing strip area and quick landing procedure.
I guess there is nothing quite as thrilling as flying the shittiest aircraft ever devised in the most risky way possible...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 19, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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The same could be said of the pilots of the first hang-gliders, the first airplanes, or the first climbers, etc...
I'd bet as the wingsuit technology develops it'll become "safer" and much more mainstream. Imagine what these suits will look like in 15 years.
And as far as proximity flying, with enough people going splat, there will likely be less people opting to fly close to solids. The stuff that makes the news and popular videos will always be guys on the bleeding edge. How much fun would such a suit be even NOT near solids? It must be fantastic but far less visually appealing to an audience.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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four-active-duty-navy-jump-off-coronado-bridge
Cool.
In this modern day sterile environment this why men who are men do this.
The rest drool in front of their screens spouting PC correct bullsh!t all day like the two forum politard tools on this site.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 20, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
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four-active-duty-navy-jump-off-coronado-bridge
successful in that nobody got killed, epic fail in that the driver of the drop-off car, the skipper of the boat and all four jumpers got arrested. Not very good planning to bail to Glorietta Bay, but I guess there was no easy exit as going out to sea would have meant passing the Harbor Police dock.
The fact that they tried to go back to Coronado Island makes me think they might have been stationed on the island. SEALS?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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So they didn't do it all perfect and got caught.
They're military gung ho guys.
When I flew with the Lemoore crew they were gung ho too.
Unlike those two PC correct drooling politard tools on this site.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Aug 21, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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OMG - that was hard to watch...
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Aug 21, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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I know it was for me to.
I like when he asks "How strong is human skin?"
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Aug 21, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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The stuff that makes the news and popular videos will always be guys on the bleeding edge.
Nah, those are the attention seeking whores. The grand majority of BASE jumps happen in the dark for personal enjoyment, and are made made of thousands and thousands of jumps ranging from "safe as houses" to "f*#king heeeeellll!!!".
Here's a good example of contrasts from someone you won't find in your viral playlist bullshit http://vimeo.com/136454562 (go watch straight to 2:20 if the beggining bores you)
Oh, and climbski2, i think you'll find out a wingsuit is not an aircraft...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Sep 27, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 27, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
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Oh, and climbski2, i think you'll find out a wingsuit is not an aircraft...
It most definitely IS an aircraft. About the worst ones ever made. You guys need to start thinking of them that way. Aircraft with limitations and specific margins of safety.
and even the best aircraft are not safe for proximity flying..let alone the worst aircraft. Watch birds when they are close to objects or landing ..even they hit them pretty regularly. Not a problem at the speeds they are going but interesting to note the errors.
Landings are a type of proximity flying one could say..and not surprisingly a large percentage of the accidents occurring with powered aircraft are during landing.
The stuff you guys are trying is not new and it was well demonstrated to be ridiculously unsafe near on 100 years ago by young men in their flying machines.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Sep 28, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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So what qualifies you to make those statements about wingsuits, climbski? As in
-How many wingsuit skydives have you got?
-How many wingsuit base jumps have you got?
-Which wingsuits have you flown?
-What was your wingsuit progression?
-What involvements have you got with with WS flyers or manufacturers?
If the answers to those questions is "none" then you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are talking out of your arse.
Sorry dude, but what you write is not different to the Daily Mail commenters dropping all their nuggets of wisdom every time there's a piece about climbing
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2015 - 12:33am PT
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Cool stuff, no doubt, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out human perceptual and cognitive systems didn't evolve the necessary processing speed to reliably accommodate proximity flying on any regular basis. I do find it somewhat fascinating that the lure of proximity flying has turned out to be so compelling.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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Spent all my life around aircraft GUY..
Aircraft are aircraft..proximity flying is what it is and nothing can make it something other than russian roulette.
Regardless what you are flying. Even the military with its really amazing avionics, guidance, and fly by wire computer overrides, incredible aircraft performance characteristics..nothing stops even them from losing a SEVERAL aircraft and crews every year from doing the same thing. The very best and brightest superbly trained young skilled men and women playing a losing game.
Write me off if you like..pretend what you are doing is something new if you wish. Almost none of you kids are going to listen no matter how correct the info..But maybe ..I hope some of you listen. Tired of seeing folks I have met and admired go down pursuing a truly foolish uncontrollable outcome.
You guys decieve yourselves into thinking you are doing everything you can to stack the odds in your favor..remember these questions??
-How many wingsuit skydives have you got?
-How many wingsuit base jumps have you got?
-Which wingsuits have you flown?
-What was your wingsuit progression?
-What involvements have you got with with WS flyers or manufacturers?
^the above questions are forms of self deception..sort of like not seeing the forest for the trees.
None of this matters when you are breaking one of the biggest and most basic principles of safe flight..the fact is by entering this arena you have stacked all the odds against you..
These deaths are far from accidents..the only accident is surviving.
Perhaps some of you are saying..yeah..he is right but I don't care..this is worth it to me..if so..good for you..you have made your decision with your eyes wide open. I have no interest in making this illegal..your life is your own (mostly)..but don't play the self deception game as you run the likelihood of deceiving others and perpetuating poor decision making.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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climbski, you can't reason with these people, god knows I've tried. They're the same dudes
who drive their pickups around with the tailgate down thinking it will boost their mpg. And
every time I even mention aspect ratio I get snarled at.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Sep 28, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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Absolutely no way these guys have 100% control over the events as they unfold. How could you value your own life so little?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Absolutely no way these guys have 100% control over the events as they unfold. How could you value your own life so little?
GoPros and grease spots just go hand in hand. Once it becomes about glory instead of personal pursuit my ability to have sympathy dissipates.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 28, 2015 - 08:51am PT
climbski, you can't reason with these people, god knows I've tried. They're the same dudes
who drive their pickups around with the tailgate down thinking it will boost their mpg. And every time I even mention aspect ratio I get snarled at.
In MORE ways than one Reilly.
Thanks.... it made my day. Seriously!!!!!
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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there are old pilots and bold pilots but rarely both. the sad thing about flying nylon is that a mistake can be deadly, and there is little time to react, being so close to earth. with a climb, you can either do the moves or not, and if you get shut down, you can hang on a piece, drill a bolt or lower off and bail. Bad judgement is unfortunately rearing its ugly head. RIP boys.
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Scylax
Trad climber
Idaho
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Amazing videos! Would love to try it myself, but I don't think I have the balls!
Also, these vids make me miss Lauterbrunnen. Wonderful place! I would live there if I could afford it. LOL
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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In the article in the Times one of his high school classmates said...."he lived more in his 23 years than most people do in their whole lives." The kind of ignorant statement that could only be made by a fellow 23 year old.
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Scylax
Trad climber
Idaho
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^^^^^
Agreed, 23 is too young to die, no matter what.
I can remember having dreams of flying when I was a little boy. These videos bring it right back to me. Simply amazing stuff.
Obviously this "nap of the earth" wing suit flying is supremely dangerous, but I won't judge the participants. I've done my share of crazy stuff down through the years. Motorcycle roadracing, both on the street as well as on the track, occasionally driving my M5 like a loon.
Pick your poison?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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one of his high school classmates said....
So it was model Gigi Hadid who said that...
"RIP my friend, #JohnnyStrange— one of the most loving & adventurous spirits I've ever known. 👼 Bigger mountains to climb in heaven. Love."
"Bigger mountains to climb in heaven" ????
"See you on the other side." ??? - Strange to Potter
It seems half the time we don't object to not keeping it real. It seems half the time we value our mythologizing.
.....
Johnny Strange wasn't that young climber we read about (via Tan Slacks I think) reaching the highest summit in Antarctica a couple years ago was he?
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2015 - 06:12am PT
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Hey, High Fructose: Yeah, I guess he was. Did the 7 summits by age 17. Another young man into the maw of wingsuit.
@Donini: Excellent point. There's a HELL of a lot of living to do after 23. I've got 30 years on the kid, and I'm still REALLY glad to be here loving, living, climbing, some important work to do.
Rest in peace, young man. May others choose more wisely.
BAd
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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as a parent I have to ask was this the result of. . .a parent living vicariously
I know that they grow like weeds and we prop them up to grow vertically.
I and a few others have to wonder where and how old are his parent/parents?
What was the point of learning the control of mountaineering to throw it all to the wind?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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And I have 19 years on you BadClimber and I'm still discovering new things. I'm at the airport in Antalya, Turkey on my way home.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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I recently watched the movie McConkey (2013).
Good story of his progression to continue to take more risks.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Take a look at this series about new fighter jocks in training. These young folks are ridiculously intelligent, talented and psychologically sounder than most. Superbly trained and pushed to the limit for months. They fail this course regularly. Even those those who fail are superb aviators.
I KNOW for a fact I could never have passed this course at a young age. I simply did not have the social skills (might not today lol). MAYBE I had the intellectual and flying ability...very maybe not..(although I did get kicked off Elmendorfs F-15C simulator for figuring out some classified radar weapons system stuff on the base simulator)
This is a NONTECHNICAL look what professional high risk flying looks like.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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'High risk flying" was my father's naval flight school in Corpus Christi flying N-10's - they lost a quarter of every class that went through the program.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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A good friend of mine was killed wingsuit BASE jumping in Switzerland a few weeks ago. He wasn't doing anything crazy. I went to his memorial service in Toronto just before Thanksgiving.
A couple of years ago I booked skydiving lessons because I wanted to work my way towards wingsuit BASE jumping. But my shoulders dislocate quite easily and I figured that it was probably not a good idea to get into that sport.
they lost a quarter of every class that went through the program
I graduated from Navy flight school with 36 others. Within 10 years, 20% of my classmates were dead from crashes, and none of those deaths were during combat. Peacetime Navy carrier aviation is more dangerous than combat.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"Peacetime Navy carrier aviation is more dangerous than combat."
Dad flew Banshee's off the Wasp. A carrier landing now is nerve-wracking. In the old days it was even worse. Dad would say he'd have loved to apply full power at touchdown like they do now. With the old planes they chopped power to catch a hook. He talks of landing an F4U Corsair on deck. The pilot comes in close lining up in the final turn only to lose sight of ship over nose of aircraft as they straighten out. Landing on a carrier in old times must have been truly terrifying.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Had the pleasure to meet Roberta and got on some of the same loads as her at a local DZ yesterday. What a bad ass flier she is.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jan 13, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
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RIP
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-california-wingsuit-flier-dies-after-jump-from-cliff-20160113-story.html
Arizona authorities are attempting to recover the body of a California man who died Tuesday while wingsuit flying with friends in the Paria Canyon-Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness area.
The Coconino County Sheriff's Office is planning to recover the body of 29-year-old Mathew Kenney of Santa Cruz on Thursday, Lt. Bret Axlund said. Kenney's body is 600 feet below the top of the cliff from where he jumped. His body is trapped in a small crevice.
"Due to the weather and the fact that the tops of the rocks are capped with ice, we're having difficulty getting anchors into the rock," Axlund said.
There had never been a death from BASE jumping in the Paria Canyon before Kenney's, Axlund said. BASE jumping has become more common in the area in recent years, he added
It appeared that Kenney was trying to fly through a "notch" in the contours of the mountain, but didn't have enough elevation to do so, Axlund said. Axlund described the notch as an indentation in the mountain.
Kenney had done 1,000 jumps prior to Tuesday's incident, Axlund said.
"Any time you jump from a cliff in such close proximity and fly in a wingsuit in excess of 100 miles an hour, feet away from obstructions, you're putting yourself in a dangerous position," Axlund said.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jan 13, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
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... was trying to fly through a "notch" RIP to the fr-amily.
Proximity is one thing - you can snuggle up to a vertical wall with a pretty good margin of error, but this idea of flying over/ through a single horizontal target is a recipe for disaster.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 14, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
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After watching a recent proximity flying video I'm wondering do the flyers really research their lines?
You know the ones where the are flying close to the ground for hundreds or thousands of feet, and really only get enough altitude to deploy their chutes when they go past another large cliff into open air.
I guess without really thinking about it before I was just assuming they did. But when I really thought about what it would entail I realized how difficult that would be. You'd have to have a really accurate topo map and be able to compute the glide ratio in turns, account for possible drafts, and temperature inversions. Jeeze it would be a mind boggling amount of work.
So that leads me to believe people are really just winging it. Sorry couldn't avoid the horrible pun. That seems WAY too risky.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 14, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
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^^^^Some people are doing a lot of research with google earth and looking at the glide ratio needed, including utilizing prior GPS data, taking into account time of day, wind speed/direction and temps...others are just getting a little closer on something they have already flown..
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 14, 2016 - 02:09pm PT
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Proximity is one thing - you can snuggle up to a vertical wall with a pretty good margin of error, but this idea of flying over/ through a single horizontal target is a recipe for disaster.
+1
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jan 14, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
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That's just utter madness. We can set a minimum distance on a terrain following radar, and the "hardness" setting, i.e. how closely we need to follow the terrain. IOW a hard setting can be kind of rough on your intestines. These "pilots" don't have those sensors, nor the computational power to process their visual inputs fast enough to compensate, and in any case...they don't have ANY reserve power to bail them out of trouble. It's basically gravity vs a brick...a living breathing brick. I respect their desires, but IMHO, you're kinda tempting fate. Physics is kind of an unforgiving bitch.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jan 26, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
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http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-base-jumpers-dead-big-sur-bridge-20160126-story.html
Two BASE jumpers are presumed to have drowned after leaping off the iconic Bixby Bridge in Big Sur last week, sheriff’s officials said Tuesday.
Mary Katherine Connell of Ventura and an unidentified man from Finland remain missing, according to Cmdr. John Thornburg, spokesman for the Monterey County Sheriff’s Office.
The pair are believed to have been overpowered by tumultuous surf shortly after landing on a small beach below Pacific Coast Highway on Wednesday.
Authorities only learned of the jumpers' fate on Sunday, when they recovered a parachute and helmet camera on the beach, and then watched the recording.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Jan 26, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
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^^^ wow, got to wonder what they were thinking . Wouldn't you want to jump off that at low tide ?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 26, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
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Unless you have performed auto erotic asphyxiation 100 times then your commentary on choke-n-stroke is ignorant.
I'm selling a new stroke suit design with an emergency airbag to prevent tragic suffocation. You'll be fine. Trust me. I'm an expert.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Jan 26, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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Not quite what happened Dingus.
She didn't land in the surf , but at the edge of the water. However a large set came in right at that moment which overcame her and dragged her into the sea.
He jumped straught away after seeing that, landed safely, took his helmet off, released his parachute, and then dove into the water to try help her.
A pretty f*#ked up and tragic accident.
Now back to the programmed schedule of misinformed ignorant posts
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 26, 2016 - 05:46pm PT
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Heisenberg,
You're my kind of comedian. We should get together and compare sacks.
Unless you're a pussy.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 26, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
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You're wishing death on me but promoting it to your dearest friends and heroes. Keep jumping and I'll probably get to laugh at your smear.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jan 26, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
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I don't jump. Your just a sh#t clown.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 26, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
Jan 26, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
actually maybe your kid should just end up paralyzed. after some drunk driver plows into him in a school crossing.
I don't jump. Your just a sh#t clown.
Maybe he could be kidnapped. They would be better parents than you would.
P.s. Your life just became tied to his. Wish him health.
]
Coward. You don't even jump? Man I'd love to have 2 minutes in private with you.
http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Jan 27, 2016 - 06:44am PT
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You should just ignore Floppy Dick.
Word on the street is a Base Jumper banged his ex when he was passed out drunk.
He's never been able to get over it and now displays that sadistic hatred for anyone who plays with bits of nylon. If only he hadn't had that one more bottle of Coors Light...
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 08:29am PT
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My BASE jumping friends are almost all dead. I blame their stupid friends and the "Go For IT Brah!" idiots.
Hey SnailFoot, go do what you love, bruh.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 27, 2016 - 08:31am PT
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^^^^^you sure rant a lot, get some therapy!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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He's a happy kid. How you doing Jeremy?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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Man that just sucks. Lived to "cheat" gravity another day only to get grabbed by the sea.
I'm assuming the surf/currents are pretty vicious in that area?
Wasn't there a recent rock-solo'ing guy who got grabbed climbing on some sea cliffs and drowned?
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:59am PT
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Do BASE rigs provide for a canopy cutaway?
No reason for this in the air, but you'd sure want to be able to get rid of the canopy quickly if you land in or near water.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:02am PT
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Or if you have to run to avoid the cops.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:20am PT
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yes Sula, they do if ya order/make it that way.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 27, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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Coward. You don't even jump? Man I'd love to have 2 minutes in private with you.
Talk about premature
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
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If you hit the surfline ANYWHERE in Nor Cal in the past three weeks, and you weren't a waterman/woman, you were asking for it. The surf has been offscale high. Hell, you can get the crap beat out of yourself at LindaMar right now.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 21, 2016 - 09:53pm PT
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Sad to say, Toby Benham died last September in a rope swing accident.
The film Smitten came out in 2011, where an incident of him getting tangled in his pilot chute was well documented.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 21, 2016 - 11:11pm PT
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To much!
Oh man I'm older now but I've said this - brothers n' sisters -
Value every breath, take every step in stride, if you must, then fly
But know that it is but a ride and not procreative if you're times up
Your times up unless you live and then you maybe real fvcked.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2016 - 07:46am PT
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Toby Benham was pretty funny guy.
Rip ......
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 22, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
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Wasn't there a recent rock-solo'ing guy who got grabbed climbing on some sea cliffs and drowned?
Michael Reardon, an outstanding climber, in Ireland.
The most recent episode of Artful Detective (Murdoch Mysteries) has the intrepid Murdoch flying a great distance in a wingsuit circa 1900. He and James Pendrick are lifted to a great height in a hydrogen baloon, from which they launch themselves.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Feb 22, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
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Never saw that one! His hesitation says it all. Killing me measuring his 'flight'
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2016 - 06:24am PT
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Hey, Biotch--quite a film clip from back in the day. You can totally see the guy psyching up, doubting, then Go for it! Splat. You'd think he'd try it over water first to know whether or not it worked. Interesting the guy at the end measuring the depth of the impact crater! Yeeesh. Sadly no surprise about the Aussie fellow dying. I've got the Smitten CD, and my first thought on seeing that guy was that he wasn't long for this world. I thought the same thing about that Himilayan climber--last name Marshal?--who managed to get up Kanchenjunga but survived the descent only because in falling headlong down a gully his arm accidentally slipped around a fixed line. The guy just seemed out of control. The next year he died on Everest. Carpe diem!
BAd
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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I feel ya, Jim. The yelling was too much. I just watched Sunshine Superman about Carl Boenish. Sad ending. It was interesting to see how the launch site that killed him had already been firmly rejected as deadly. Carl had a really bad leg from a bad break that he never had set properly because he was a Christian Scientist. Largo talks about seeing the whacky bend in his leg. When Carl hiked back up after SUCCESSFULLY jumping the The Troll the day before, he could barely make it. Perhaps that was a big motivation to use the lower jump site. Carl makes a reference to the Bible, about the temptations of Christ. Don't jump off the temple, dude. Tempt not thy Lord. Haysoos meant that stuff. Carl jumped. Game over.
I find it interesting--but not surprising--that someone who would not go to a doctor trained in science and medical technology to get some fairly simple treatment on a broken leg would be okay with trusting the science and technology of those who develop airplanes and parachutes. I mean, if the Christian Scientists (beyond stupid name) were consistent (yeah, right), they would probably have to live in caves and be hunter gatherers. They certainly wouldn't become electrical engineers and BASE jumpers a la Carl Boenish.
Anyway, a great film. And Largo's in it!
BAd
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Woe mhan,
that video, that Jim Brennan shared ends with the fatal jump of Jan Davis, who borrowed
A rig because she did not want her rig to get confiscated. She was not familiar with the borrowed rigs' rip cord, that was located on on her thigh. She augered in in front of that crowd.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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for the record...If the canopy twists or opens off heading, its only a problem when doing a slider down (or off) jump with a minimal delay since one is near an object. on a terminal jump, this is never a problem as you open with plenty of room out in open space.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2016 - 08:54am PT
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An interesting vid I came across. Dudes are proximity flying without the squirrel suits. New design? something in the legs? Anyway, the opening scene makes me sad because there's a really good chance that neat kid is going to grow up without a father. Oh well, rad boyz gotta be rad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fbYTN1gJKw
BAd
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Apr 10, 2016 - 09:00am PT
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She was not familiar with the borrowed rigs' rip cord How does someone jump without knowing where their rip cord is located? Isn't it kinda obvious when you get suited up?
Serious question.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Apr 10, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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Those are tracking suits Bad climber. Those guys are proximity tracking.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 10, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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SLR, you know flyers and their get-homeitis, right? Jumpers' get-more-yahoositis clearly
clouds their judgement.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Apr 14, 2016 - 11:01pm PT
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Bad Climber
I have just read your Feb 23 post, in which you slagged my good friend Roger Marshall. Why would you do that? Far from being "out of control", Roger was a highly motivated and experienced mountaineer. He made either the first or second solo ascent of Kanchenjunga, the 3rd highest peak in the world. He died from a fall while descending after an unsuccessful solo attempt on the north face of Everest. That's the north face, not the north ridge. His reasons for this attempt were complicated, but completely rational. He was virtually unsupported on a rarely climbed route, unlike the fiascos we see today. Roger was very much in control of his abilities and emotions, and was well aware of what can happen to a solo climber who falls.
Roger was an ex-Brit who emigrated to Canada. He "had it in the bottle" as the Brits say.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2016 - 06:18am PT
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Hey, Hamie:
Sorry about your friend, really. I was just writing about a vibe I got when reading his piece about Kanchenjunga. When he survived that climb by the slimmest of margins and then resolved to head off to Everest, solo as well, I was left with a sad feeling that this fellow wasn't going to be around long. Unfortunately, I was right. I had the same feeling about the Aussie base jumper. Sadly, right again. Some folks are addicted to the edge, and that baby cuts. I guess what I mean be "out of control" in these cases is that the practitioner can't control his or her impulses when it comes to the extreme. It doesn't matter how close the call: If one survives, that's all the validation or encouragement one needs to keep getting after it. Instead of thinking--Whoa, that was too close. Maybe I should dial it back a little--the extremist takes it right back to the same limit or beyond. Too often--see Potter, Boenish, et al.--they pay the ultimate price.
Don't misunderstand me. I totally support the right of folks to push their limits however they see fit. I admit that I'm inspired by wild solos, and I find wingsuit videos addicting. But when some of these guys and gals don't come back, we aren't too surprised. Some, like Potter, seemed to have cracked the code, and he hung out on that edge for over 20 years, extraordinary, really, but that edge pushes back.
Condolences on losing your friend. When they go, a part of us goes with them.
BAd
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Apr 15, 2016 - 10:38am PT
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Bad Climber
No hard feelings. Roger knew what he was up to, and the possible consequences. He was willing to cross a line which most others would not. In this case, a line too far and too high.
Cheers,
H.
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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 15, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
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Classy exchange, Hamie and BAd, rarely seen here on SuperTopo.
Climb Ohn. Wally
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 15, 2016 - 12:58pm PT
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^^^^ agreed, this is a nice example.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Apr 15, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
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the opening scene makes me sad because there's a really good chance that neat kid is going to grow up without a father.
Funny coincidence that you posted Luca's video with that comment.
As it happens, Luca's dad was out jumping way before Luca did and they still sometimes jump together. So not only Luca didn't grow up without a father, he went on to share the joys of the sport with him.
His dad was a base jumping pioneer who in 1996 did the second ever jump from what is nowadays possibly the most popular cliff in the world, and he's still alive and kicking.
1996
[Click to View YouTube Video]
2016
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Anyway, the kid in the intro isn't Luca's kid, and the "dad" he's hugging is not down from a base jump but a skydive. Luca is a profesional skydiving instructor and coach. But hey, sh#t happens and there's nothing stopping him from getting killed by a drunk driver in the way home or by a rampaging cow, so feel free to get sad about the kid if that lets you sit in your high horse. ;)
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Apr 15, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
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That's fookn close!!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 24, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Thanks for that Bad Climber, that was awesome. None of the rock shaving, treetop missing, ready to die stuff I've seen. What's the glide ratio? 4:1, 3:1? Pretty amazing X distance.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 24, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
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Beautiful. What a great ride.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 24, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
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What's the glide ratio? 4:1, 3:1?
I know I have the rep of a skeptic but I'm asking this question in all
seriousness. As someone who has studied aerodynamics and has flown 40:1
sailplanes I honestly do not see how any of these rigs can have better than
2.5:1, on a good day. BTW, if any of you guys want to pony up yer cash I
can put you in touch with my friend who designed the wing of the Gossamer
Albatross. He won't come cheap but he could definitely get you going big! :-)
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 24, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
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was curious about Reilly's question...
based on google maps and assuming, as it looks in the video, that he landed at the nearest point in the valley and not in the vilage of lauterbrunnen itself [which is further to the north than the more direct flight to the valley that i am assuming] then Kerber flew ~5.52km in horizontal distance. and in the movie it says his total elevation change was 3.24km.
this gives him an average glide ratio of 1.7:1
two caveats to this. he flew in at, i'd guess looking at the vid, at least 300m above valley bottom and he also mentions in the article that he was diving most of the way, so that is a minimized glide ratio calculation. based on an elevation change of say 2.9km and a slightly more indirect google map path, which is likely the case, of say 5.8km puts him at an average glide ratio of 2:1
there's a good answer here that breaks glide ratios down and says that while glide paths of 4:1 are attainable over say 1000m of drop, sustainable max glide is roughly about 2.5:1 or what Reilly was guessing [or surreptitiously googling ;) ]...
given comp paragliders are up to about 13:1, there's still lots of room for our plummeting cousins to improve... :)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2016 - 06:24am PT
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Yeah, I've heard 3:1 as the best the squirrel people can manage at this time. That's pretty impressive given the small wing surface. And sailplanes? Fugetaboutit. Stunning ratios.
BAd
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 07:21am PT
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The primary issue squirrels face is their lack of aspect ratio. The only way to solve that is by
means of a rigid extension of the arm. Employing that will partly solve their second main issue
of their floppy fabric. Yes, the clever inflatable tubes partially address that but if they adopt
rigid extensions they can easily do away with fabric where it matters most. I could see their
GR's easily going up to an honest 5 or 6:1. The carbon fiber wing used by Yves Rossy looks
to have a good 8:1 if not a bit more. With that kind of rig you could jump off the Schilthorn and
almost make it to Interlaken!
Bad, the top sail planes now are 60:1! With a 2000' tow they can glide 20 miles in still air!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 25, 2016 - 07:29am PT
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Even now one of the biggest challenges to long flights is arm strength/endurance. More glide ratio won't help that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 07:35am PT
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It would with a rigid strap across the chest. Maybe that isn't squirrely enough but I would
rather fly further more easily and safely, but that's just me. I find the current Bram Stoker
look pretty cave.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:20am PT
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Changing thread direction a little. I built the graph below from data on the BASE fatality list. However, the big missing data here are the total number of BASE jumps in each year from 1981 through 2015. I suspect that this is pretty much impossible to derive, let alone capture in some database.
My expectations are that BASE jumping safety is actually increasing as successful (e.g. non-fatal) jumps rate of increase severely outstrips the fatality rate of increase. Does that make sense?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:23am PT
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per above, i agree that it is common to hold a 2.5 glide ratio that can be sustained without losing too much speed on most flights. the speed is important if one needs to change to a higher glide for whatever reasons. In most of the proximity vid you see, these guys are diving hard, going really fast and not maxing glide at all. as one famous dude once said when i asked what his favorite line was...he said "straight out!" People don't really want to carry a large wing or solid structure around (reminds me of hang gliders)...and these ideas of larger wings, persons needed strength and wing aspect ratios have been thrown around for a very long time.
edited for gunkie, i do think it is generally safer these days (better gear, instruction and more exits available)... simply more people and some are really pushing the limits , also the interweb where info is immediately available that makes it seem worse. the swiss base assoc has the most accurate data, but again, this is not a regulated sport and many jumps go without much ado or press.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Apr 25, 2016 - 10:35am PT
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Yeah, I've heard 3:1 as the best the squirrel people can manage at this time.
Sustained 3.5 up to 4 is now possible, and in competition settings the record is now a hairs breath below 5:1 (4.98 or something like that i think it is). That is measured over a vertical km though, so it allows the flyer to dive and build up speed before entering the measured section.
In BASE speed is somewhat more important than GR, as that energy can be converted to achieve very high glide ratios for short periods in case you need to take evasive action, so the average GR is kept intentionally low.
Here's a good video from a few years ago showing all the data from a BASE jump. Notice how towards the end a strong flair achieves a GR of nearly 5:1 for a few seconds with a vertical speed of barely 15mph.
http://vimeo.com/70570559
Edit. Pretty much what Snakefoot said. Should have kept reading before replying :)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 10:45am PT
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a strong flair achieves a GR of nearly 5:1 for a few seconds
In the real world that isn't how glide ratio is measured. By that metric many sailplanes
would have a 'glide ratio' well over 120:1 and jetliners would be like 50:1! ;-)
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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With all due respect, this is the real world and people are talking about it. i have achieved much higher glide ratios for a short time after a long vertical dive, but this is besides the point.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:24am PT
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In the real World glide ratio is measured by dividing horizontal travel by vertical travel within a given timespan. Sailplanes can have moments with GR's much higher than 120:1. It is the timescale within you measure it that defines what's what.
As pointed above, an average glide ratio of 4.98 or thereabouts has been done over a vertical kilometer. That is, the flyer travelled 4.98 kms horizontally and 1 km vertically. I doubt that would get you free beer at your local glider's club, but it is nonetheless accepted in the wingsuiting world.
Edit: I keep getting ninjaed by Snakefoot
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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guy above, your input is appreciated regardless...
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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In the real world that isn't how glide ratio is measured. By that metric many sailplanes
would have a 'glide ratio' well over 120:1 and jetliners would be like 50:1! ;-)
I am not sure what you mean because it should be obvious that a sailplane could have a glide ratio of infinity over a short time period. A steep dive to gain speed followed by a climb while loosing that speed.
Even a hangglider can dive and pull up just above the ground to perform a looping without crashing into the ground.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Apr 25, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
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Gunkie: more missing you your graph than those 2 variables.
Snakefoot brings up good points. But the innovation of WS and TS has changed the game. WS proxy fatalities should be an entire sub category. There are no variables on that graph other than a fatality number. Auto fatalities graph would look the same honestly....
The individuals at this level (one is a F-15 fighter pilot (retired) takes in more information on one WS proxy flight than someone doing 300 off the Potato. The data he collects prior to and from other jumps brings an entirely new level of sniper like precision to the sport.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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^ gag
2 ways people approach this proximity bullsh#t
Im a f*#king moron who thinks I have my sh#t down but I dont and I'm playing Russian roulette unknowingly.
Or I'm a person who values the experience more than long life and knowingly is playing Russian roulette.
Actually there is a third way.. but it does not apply to wingsuits..
I'm in the US military and my job is to play Russian roulette. We lose approximately 70 aircraft and 20 to 40 colleagues every year.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
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Raymond, don't get in an aerodynamics gunfight with a dull butter knife.
There is only one glide ratio for a given wing, period. Trading airspeed for
altitude is a fool's errand in the long run, if the long run is your goal.
If you want to avoid the rock in front of you or you want your pursuer to
blow past so you can get on his 6 then it is a good deal, but that doesn't
mean you have a better glide ratio than when you started. Flying is most
simply understood as fluid dynamics, aka energy management. I can provide
you with a lengthy reading list.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
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This is the last place to get info on BASE. Basejumper.com has some lively forums, like this one but without the off topic stuff, like this. They don't judge climbers in their forums.
This is all that I know, having never wingsuited. Regular BASE, yes, in my time I was a stud, but this is something truly separate. I don't know why they even call it BASE. It has gone further. I bet that those guys don't spend much time doing bridges.
The wing area of the suits has vastly grown. They have inflatable cells which create an airfoil, too. Similar to parachutes, they have openings on the leading edge, and they inflate pretty quickly.
The new suits are almost pure rectangles. The first ones had wings from the wrists to the waist and the new ones have a much higher glide ratio. I've heard 4:1 tossed around, but I can't be sure. Anyway, it takes more skill to fly the bigger flying carpet type suits.
The big new ones take experience to fly. It is one of the easiest ways to die: move up to a big suit without enough experience. That is how a good friend died last year.
They don't turn on a dime. They kind of slide in the turns. So you have to be really good to get everything out of one of those suits. Almost all incidents are from impact during flight, so if they wanted to just fly out over the valley and enjoy themselves, it would be easy. However even the first wingsuiters found that it was more intense to fly these proxy lines.
On a new line, they first fly over it. Then they refine the line just as a slalom skier might. They get lower and lower until they are going between trees and all that. It requires a lot of experience with the suits. You can skydive with them, and get a feel for them, but people refine those lines until they are double black diamond skull and crossbone lines if anyone tries them cold. If you want to do a repeat of someone else's line, you have to work your way through it, sometimes over many jumps.
In my day, if you had a hundred jumps, you were in the top ten in the world, and we felt like we were jumping hard. These guys spend all summer doing the legal sites in Europe, and they are good at it. Many have thousands of jumps. Still, it is deadly to make a mistake, and we are seeing a rash of deaths. In normal old BASE, most mistakes are beginner bonehead moves, but now almost all of the deaths happen on wingsuits. Too close.
It looks like the most intense thing imaginable. We would have been all over it, but were born 30 years too early. It takes a ton of skill.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Apr 26, 2016 - 10:28am PT
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Raymond, don't get in an aerodynamics gunfight with a dull butter knife.
There is only one glide ratio for a given wing, period.
Oh dear... Someone needs a new spork...
3-17
Any change in the gliding airspeed will result in a pro-
portionate change in glide ratio. Any speed, other than
the best glide speed, results in more drag. Therefore, as
the glide airspeed is reduced or increased from the
optimum or best glide speed, the glide ratio is also changed.
And that's before even touching trim, flaps, slats, angle of attack or variable camber wings. But i guess you know better than the FAA?
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 26, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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Raymond, don't get in an aerodynamics gunfight with a dull butter knife.
I don't understand what you mean with your post. Remember that you where the person that said something about 120:1 for sailplanes.
I can of course also give you a reading list about aerodynamics if this is some kind of pissing match about credentials.
The glide ratio at different air speeds is of course usually defined at steady state but you can of course also talk about glide ratios in different context if you want to, you just have to define what you mean, and it can be useful in some contexts.
It can for example be useful to know that the glide ratio from a dive in a wing suite can be 5:1 over a distance of 50 m.
I still have no idea why you wrote something about 120:1 when the obvious number for an sailplane would be infinity (at very many "starting" air speeds at least) if you as in the wingsuite examples are allowed to trail speed for glide over a short time interval.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 26, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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Rock with wings.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 26, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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Faked
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 26, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
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the part about them sneaking in probobly faked. the crane operator most likly in on the stunt. totally whacked if the operator not in on it.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 26, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
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Raymond is correct and being reasonable.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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@BASE104:
Thanks for that explanation. I clarifies a lot of what I'm seeing as I obsess over these videos. It's so bloody compelling. Perhaps you can help with this observation: Most of the videos are mostly in slo-mo. Can you point me/us to some POV clips that are at full speed, the 100+mph these dudes are making? The vids make it look like there's so much time to adjust the line, but clearly this is not the case.
BAd
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Apr 26, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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^^
Google
WS flight thru hole
Alex Polli also has full speed videos.
Chris LaBounte
Horizontal speed is more like 120-150 mph...Correct me if I'm wrong.
Vertical speed in the 60's?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2016 - 03:03am PT
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= splat sooner or later.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 27, 2016 - 05:29am PT
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a dull butter knife.
The redundancy is killing me. Who has sharp butter knifes?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 27, 2016 - 05:53am PT
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Who has sharp butter knives?
I do,
Tradman comments: = splat sooner or later.
Eventually equals splat? is The BASE version of - yer gonna die - ?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:09am PT
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Um TMC?
If that stunt happened that way you'd just have a bag of bones in a nearby pile. He'd be dead before the big block hit the ground.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 27, 2016 - 07:29am PT
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I think your link is f * # k e d up plus I am not interested in what is up her sleeve
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Apr 27, 2016 - 07:32am PT
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Overwatch your not interested but you feel the need to make a negative comment. What a kook!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 27, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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It is barley worth watching once,
Twice? I'm gonna find something nice, the blond who went splat? Or did she? I forget. But She Had Trix in Spades
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 08:32am PT
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How come in Dubai they let people jump from buildings and in America it's a serious crime.
Are Americans insane?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 27, 2016 - 08:40am PT
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Ahh, the age old question. why are american laws so stupid? the europeans laugh at our fake freeedom stance
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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I still have no idea why you wrote something about 120:1 when the obvious number for an sailplane would be infinity
I guess for the same reason you wrote about a suit being capable of 5:1 - just to talk sh!t, braj!
As for the 'obvious infinity number' how would that be computed in standard aerodynamic
equations when it is mathematically and physically impossible? Now, let's get back to
discussing something relevant like stagnation pressure or interference drag, shall we? You
gotta agree both are large reasons those rigs are rocks with wings.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Apr 27, 2016 - 10:45am PT
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Now, let's get back to discussing something relevant like stagnation pressure or interference drag, shall we? You gotta agree both are large reasons those rigs are rocks with wings.
I'd love to hear about that. Please make your point.
ETA: And your opinion on this would also be appreciated
wingsuit flight data
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 10:56am PT
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As for the 'obvious infinity number' how would that be computed in standard aerodynamic
equations when it is mathematically and physically impossible?
An infinity glide ratio over a finite time period mathematically and physically impossible? Ok...
Why should that be computed in standard aerodynamic equations when it should be obvious that it is a dynamical system we talk about and not some steady state that can be calculated with standard equations?
Lets give an example. You fly a sailplane with 150 km/h, at distance x=0 and h=100 m you start to pull on the stick and continue to fly at h=100 m. At distance x=1000 m your altitude is still h=100 m and your speed is 130 km/h. Lets do some glide ratio calculations over the distance interval [0 1000] m.
delta x/delta h=1000/0 which can be called infinity (you can of course use epsilons and deltas and do a limit argument if you want that).
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 27, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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Yeah, listen to Ammon. He's current. I'm an old fart who has been out of it for decades. It was new when I did it, and we were constantly figuring it out on the fly with gear and technique.
Now, at least in non-wingsuit BASE, it can be pretty safe. Not all objects are equal, though. Some are more dangerous than others, but they know that. Risk is a known quantity now, and techniques and vastly superior gear make it safer, especially for the experienced people, who have FAR more jumps than any of us could have imagined back then.
The Dubai festivals were invite-only affairs. You had to be experienced and not have a bad reputation.
I added up the number of jumps held in Dubai once, and I came up with over 8000 without major incident. I think that one year the locals sort of organized it themselves, and there was either a fatality or a serious injury. I can't recall.
8000. That is a big number. These days, if they opened El Cap, and somehow could do it in that invite-only format, it could go on for years without incident. El Cap is that simple of a jump.
If I showed Ammon the early pack jobs, he would turn his head in horror. We did figure it out after a while, and it was close to the modern pack job. Other things were really crude, though.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 27, 2016 - 12:19pm PT
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The Jan Davis Memorial Jump Day?
Frank Gambalie Triathlon?
You're so cool.
Rocky the Squirrel Fest.
Sponsored by Boris and Natasha Industries.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 27, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
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hey flip, just cant stay away can you?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 12:51pm PT
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hey flip, just cant stay away can you?
Kinda like herpies.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 27, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
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Go do what you love, squishy brains.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
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Suck a tailpipe, sh#t for brains.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Apr 27, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
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flipper, it is with great fondness that we can follow your pathologic personality disorder, childish writings and the unsubstantiated attitude on this topic. off your meds again?
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
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Now, at least in non-wingsuit BASE, it can be pretty safe.
"Pretty safe" is a ridiculous thing to think or say about any BASE jump(except maybe El Cap). My Wife and I jump exclusively without wingsuits and usually slider down and EVERY jump is sh#t your pants dangerous. You do everything you can to stack the deck in your favor and with a lot of skill and smarts one can be pretty confident in their abilities to handle a problem. But not a single "pretty safe" thing about any of it, even with modern gear..
You did add that there are exceptions, but those are a handful of excptions at best.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 27, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
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Mike,
You are a boss honcho. It's cool to do scary, dangerous, rowdy stuff. No shame in that game.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
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Wow, Jim, that was great! Love it. Thanks.
BAd
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Apr 28, 2016 - 10:19pm PT
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Good video.
At around 3:50, the two jumpers enter a "downplane" formation. At around 4:00 you can see their shadow against the stadium, showing the 2-canopy formation.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Apr 28, 2016 - 10:49pm PT
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From my school days, I kind of recall that it's a no no to let the flag touch the ground.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 29, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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YYEEOOWWP! must be such a rush to drop into a stadium full of peeps like that.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 18, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
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"Pretty safe" is a ridiculous thing to think or say about any BASE jump(except maybe El Cap). My Wife and I jump exclusively without wingsuits and usually slider down and EVERY jump is sh#t your pants dangerous. You do everything you can to stack the deck in your favor and with a lot of skill and smarts one can be pretty confident in their abilities to handle a problem. But not a single "pretty safe" thing about any of it, even with modern gear..
Really? Sh#t your pants? Maybe you should take up something else. I was pretty scared on my first ten or so BASE jumps, but after that I became a good student and never felt out of my comfort zone. If I was, I would often just climb or walk down to jump a better day. I backed off of a ton of jumps, even if my friends went ahead and did it. We all evaluate risk a little differently. Like I said, at the Petronas Towers, there were 8000 jumps done by experienced jumpers without serious incident. It has never been safer.
Perhaps it is your choice of objects. I know this guy on Facebook. He seems to only jump the same 250 foot microwave tower. Over and over and over. You need to branch out and get experience with a wide variety of objects.
Bigger objects are much more fun, but you need to know how to fly your body. Don't tell me that you guys just toss the second you leave the object. If you push off HARD, or have the room to run off, by 3 seconds you are pretty far from the object and can turn around if you have a 180.
I see a lot of that jump and toss going on these days.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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BASE104 said: Like I said, at the Petronas Towers, there were 8000 jumps done by experienced jumpers without serious incident. It has never been safer.
Nice to hear! Like so much else in the news, bad news gets the most press. It seems to me that jumping big cliffs with a wingsuit and tracking clear would be pretty reasonable, as those 8,000+ jumps you mentions suggests.
BAd
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 18, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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Jim... Good Videos of those SEALS.
Bad Ass to the Bone.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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May 19, 2016 - 05:58am PT
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There's a video just came out with an honest account around base jumping and jumper's attitudes and outlook on the risks we take.
It doesn't back anyone's points of view, and people from all sides of the fence may try and use it to "prove" they are right, but it's worth posting up for what it is, a beautifully made and raw view on the people who choses to get off their coach and do something they love, with the people they love.
http://vimeo.com/167054481
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 19, 2016 - 08:09am PT
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Thanks for sharing that vid.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 28, 2016 - 05:13pm PT
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Bumping this thread for discussion and thoughts due to the recent accident.
Again I'm in support of people doing what they want. But really the risk in BASE is at another level compared to climbing. Doesn't mean people shouldn't do it IMO, but they should be realistic about the risk.
If I was offered a ride on a rocket to outer space I'd jump at the chance, but understand the risk is WAY more than an airplane flight. But if the experience is worth it...
Establishing new exits and close proximity wing suit flights really increases the risk. again I just hope people are being realistic.
As I mentioned previously my friends were getting into BASE in the mid 90s right about the time I got married. My then fiancé asked me to not BASE and I honored that request. I'm kind of lucky because it made the decision easy for me. I had planned to at least try it. And knowing myself it would have been tough to do just one and walk away. But I also think I would have kept it to the relatively safe jumps, because I started hearing about accidents as soon as the people I knew started doing it, and the accidents were all due to adding complexity or doing something out of the ordinary. That is if base can ever be considered ordinary.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 28, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
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Risky business. I've lost 2 close friends in accidents. The tragic effect on their family, even years later, is hard to measure.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jun 28, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
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Have Brooke Inglehart chime in
He's super knowledgeable
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 28, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
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Didn't he already have you pissing in your pants over this sh#t?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 28, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
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Heisenberg, I know you feel that the great majority of people who comment on this subject are not knowlegeable from the point of view that they don't participate in wingsuit base. True, but the statistics seem to indicate that increased experience in wingsuit/base doesn't lead to increased saftey as it does in rock climbing.
It seems to me that increased experience/ability leads to shaving the margins of saftey in an already risky sport.
Full discosure...I have been a lifelong alpinict (no, I don't mean the Third Pillar of Dana) and the inherent objective dangers in alpinism make it more difficult for experience to mitigate risk.
I just don't buy the argument that you can't comment on something that you don't do..... statistics can tell a story
lastly, even more than Woot Woot I find "he/she was doing someting they loved" extremely annoying.
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thirsty
climber
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Jun 28, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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Alpinism risk/reward calculations and BASE risk/reward calculations do not appear to commensurate. They appear to represent entirely different sets of life choices and life realities. I also consider myself an alpinist and know that 3rd pillar of Dana does not count. I have had many close calls in the mountains and a few situations where I spent time re-evaluating every decision I made (even after having succeeded on a route) because I thought my risk assessments were not as honest as they should have been. I am a person who has no tattoos because I don't see any benefit in light of the risks of heavy metal toxicity, future aesthetic regrets or even minuscule disease infection. From wht I have seen, serious technical alpinists rarely have tattoos – they care way too much about their health over the long run. Do BASE jumpers? I don't know any. I'm curious. It seems like alpinism and BASE jumping involve different life paradigms.
Statistics are B.S. and useless when trying to compare life-value across incommensurate divides.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jun 28, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
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Haven't jumped in a bunch of years, but BASE doesn't seem particularly bad to me.
Proximity flying on the other hand, despite the intoxicating allure, doesn't seem to pencil-in from a risk perspective (as Donini notes). I personally chalk that up to the reality of operating in a high-speed envelope where the situational awareness and judgment requirements for 'safe' proximity flying (selecting proper flight vectors at a distance in advance) can easily and instantly exceed human perception/decision/reaction loop times.
Peregrines are wired for proximity flying, humans are not. We can do it; but past a certain proximity threshold our ability to judge and respond fast enough is far outstripped and it's at that point I think one is essentially gambling.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 11, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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One of my best friends died wingsuiting in Utah recently. He was the best setter at Touchstone and one of the nicest people Ive ever known. He was a very hard worker and made everyone around him climb stronger. I followed him up Warp Factor just before he passed. The man climbed it like it was a cakewalk. ..... Base jumpers and free soloists in the valley jeopardize access for all of us. It took ten years and alot of time and money to reopen the ASRA to climbing after a thrill seeking bungee jumper died there. Please stay OFF PUBLIC LANDS if you intend to be a danger to yourself and others
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 11, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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It took ten years and alot of time and money to reopen the ASRA to climbing after a thrill seeking bungee jumper died there.
Correction: a rope jumper died there.
I don't know the stats on rope jumping but bungee jumping is statistically much safer than rock climbing. I would guess rope jumping is statistically more risky than bungee jumping because anyone can buy a climbing rope and jump on it. It's very difficult to buy a bungee jumping cord without proof that you've completed training.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 11, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
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Tough activity...
... complete multiple flights, yer a stud...
... you die, yer a fool.
Don't normalize the risks and define your own game; same as climbing.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 11, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
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Peregrines are wired for proximity flying, humans are not.
Peregrines also have a flight envelope at least 100 times the area of the
best wing suit made which, if yer not versed in aerodynamics, means a vastly
greater margin of error. Just their L/D and wing loading are ridiculous
in comparison. And don't get me started on aspect ratio.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 11, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Heroes give their lives for a cause.
Fools die for no reason.
The bro bra cheerleaders get their nuts off when someone dies.
It feeds their pathetic egos.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 11, 2016 - 10:32pm PT
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Flip flop you are such a hypocritical idiot. I feel sorry for your kid.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 11, 2016 - 10:39pm PT
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oh oh, you're the next on the hitlist
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 11, 2016 - 08:16am PT
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Bringing back the porn. . .
I had to wonder . . Curiosity Killed the Cat,
chainsaw, Trad climber CA. Jul 11, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
One of my best friends died wingsuiting in Utah recently. He was the best setter at Touchstone and one of the nicest people Ive ever known. He was a very hard worker and made everyone around him climb stronger. I followed him up Warp Factor just before he passed. The man climbed it like it was a cakewalk. ..... Base jumpers and free soloists in the valley jeopardize access for all of us. It took ten years and alot of time and money to reopen the ASRA to climbing after a thrill seeking bungee jumper died there. Please stay OFF PUBLIC LANDS if you intend to be a danger to yourself and others What Was ASRA, it sounded familiar?
Nice write up,
History
Technical rock climbing has been practiced in the Old Limestone Quarry located in the ASRA since the late 1980’s. The original climbers established approximately seven rock climbing routes, which required some amount of fixed protection; pitons and protection bolts. From all accounts, early climbers were not discouraged or refused recreational opportunities at this time. Early climbers included Dale Christenson, Eric Kohl, Kirk Arens, and the Hatchett Brothers. On November 18th, 1998, Kirk and friends were practicing rope jumping on an elaborate rigging system. Kirk misjudged the length of his rope jump and was killed in the resultant impact. From this point forward 'til 2003, climbers were discouraged from using the Auburn SRA for technical rock climbing, but it was not technically illegal to climb there. In 2004, the ASRA created a memorandum banning technical climbing which was in effect until October 2012, where through the hard work of CRAGS (Climbing Resource Advocates for Greater Sacramento), the Access Fund, and local climbers the ban was lifted and climbing could legally resume in the Quarry. Climbers in the early 2000’s started re-exploring the area for rock climbing routes and currently there are almost fifty established routes within the Auburn State Recreation Area. These routes cater to climbers of all levels from easy, moderate, and hard levels of climbing.
Climbing
The remaining rock cliffs left after the conclusion of active quarrying present a perfect opportunity for performance of technical rock climbing. The rock is highly featured limestone along with other sedimentary rock mixed in. The actual quarrying process itself has created large features, which are ideally suited to climbing.
It is not uncommon to see the Placer County Sheriff use the Old Quarry as a practice grounds for their Search and Rescue Team. So don't be surprised if on occasion you see a large group of folks rappel and jugging the Scale Wall. Please respect their right to use the area for this purpose and find a different wall to climb on until they are done
From here;
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/cave-valley-aka-auburn-quarry/105733941
I love that region and wanted to find the tale of the "Thrill-seeking bungee Jumper"
I bet there is so much more to that sad chapter, tuff story, regards and sorry for having looked it up
Respect to the fallen!
It was the best learning zone, before all the info was easy to come by.
You learned by doing trying ,backing off, retrieving gear, learning by doing in the vertical.
Learning to read where a climb, but more importantly How to climb safely where you don't want to be, and should not climb.
We went up, we didn't need no yellow dots on a HD picture!
( double negative intended ) I started up some very wrong "starts" that others had obviously done & some so fresh, crux features fell off on the 4th accent .
Anyway chainsaw, I envy your location.
Growing into something you do well is usually it's own reward, not so in the case of Flying pursuits.
Demonstrators of that & Ideas for the music to accompany some of the rad videos.
[Click to View YouTube Video] just watching , my fingers hurt half way through,
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Aug 21, 2016 - 07:36am PT
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Everytime I see this thread I go to the BLINC BASE fatality list. It's a bit of morbid curiosity. The number of listed killed BASE jumping just went through 300 (now 301). So right now #302 is out there alive and well.
Don't be #302.
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 21, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
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There was a base fatality in the Chamonix area last week, along with a parapente tandem
guide, whose client was able to land after the guide fell out of their rig!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sorry but that's fckin st00pid. Lets see if i can do a spiral right next to a tree @140mph. what could go wrong?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2016 - 07:19am PT
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From the article about Polli's death:
The World Wingsuit League called Polli's death a "huge loss" for the community, saying his legacy "continues to inspire new generations of jumpers for years to come."
I'm sure that's true. along with a growing pile of body bags.
BAd
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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The World Wingsuit League called Polli's death a "huge loss" for the community, saying his legacy "continues to inspire new generations of jumpers for years to come."
Tony Uragallo worked with Polli and designed some wingsuits for the skydiver, calling him "special" and "way spiritual" — the type of friend who'd encourage those around him to "dance the night away" and will be sorely missed.
"In jumping he was fearless — or looked it, at least, doing stunts that took my breath away," Uragallo told NBC News in an email.
Polli was asked a few years ago about the dangers of his pursuits — and he told an interviewer that he took comfort in preparing "extremely well" for his wingsuit jumps.
"I never went out there to risk my life," he told the Deutsche Welle newspaper in 2013. "To be quite honest: I am extremely scared of dying."
Saddened to hear a good friend Alexander Polli died yesterday doing waht he loved. Rest in peace big man.
All said.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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tradmanclimbs... you're right. Just as stupid of doing Baintha Brakk peak with 1-2 60 meters of rope, light rack and minimal food or gear????
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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don't know what you are talking about?? High altitude mountainereing is pretty f*#king stupid but still not in the same league as these squirl suit bone heads. Just think what the conversation would be if there were only a coupple thousand climbers in the world and they were dying at the rate the sqirl suits die... There are probobly over a million climbers in the world and we are nowheres near the death rate of the few thousand squirl suiters.....
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Trad,
numbers are honestly irrelevant. The Commitment is the EXACT SAME.
BASE " stunts " as it were, are no different from " Climbing stunts. " Tragic for those leaving, those left behind.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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numbers are everything. your chances of pulling it off are in the numbers. If the numbers suck and you try it anyways you get the stupid dead person of the week award...... Does not matter which adventure sport, you make decisions based on your chances of comming out on the right side of the dirt. when I solo 5.7 rock or grade 3 ice the numbers are in my favor. I do not fall at those grades. were I to solo 5.10 rock or 5+ ice the numbers would suck and I would be stupid to do it. I ocasionaly fall on 5.10 and sometimes I run out of gas and hang on 5+ ice. Jump out of an airplane with a reguler chute and the numbers are pretty damn good. Go proxy flying in a wing suit and the numbers suck.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Always the reference class problem.
If you correctly identify your reference class as Alex Honnold, go have some fun soloing something hard. If you're wrong about your reference class, maybe you end up dead. If you correctly identify your reference class as Bachar, maybe you also need to correctly identify the reference class of the day.
Humans as a reference class are not that great at identifying the correct reference class, but we're really good at believing that we can.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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You can't always win which is what makes it exciteing but if you play a game that is exciteing but actually has pretty decent numbers then your chances of getting a damn good thrill without getting killed are pretty good. If you play a game that has terrible numbers your chances of getting seriously f*#king dead increase dramaticaly.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Driving a car has pretty good numbers, but a three year old driving a car probably doesn't. Overall, not that many three year olds drive cars, so if we just go by the "people driving a car" reference class, a three year old might have an easy time deluding themselves. Maybe more three year olds get hurt on the monkey bars than driving a car, but that doesn't mean driving the car is safer for them.
I agree with what you're saying in the abstract, but in reality, IMHO, always the reference class problem.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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My understanding of the current rash of base fatalities is that it's easy to get a sense of expertise in the field (sky diving, BASE jumping, squirrel suits, etc.) partly because the skills are not that difficult to attain, and it's more a matter of judgment, and it's become "normalized" by GoPro videos etc., so that people are underestimating the challenges (putting it in a lower risk reference class than they should) and overestimating their level of ability (putting themselves in a higher ability/judgment reference class than they should).
The "numbers" that we observe are a reflection of the actual danger combined with people's perception of that danger - they're not just a reflection of the actual risk. Sure, here on a climber's site, we each could die, if we don't get it right, but in terms of the actual risk that we face, I expect that I'm probably more at risk with a rope than Honnold is without one.
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jstan
climber
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Go out and observe how soaring birds are affected by the chaotic patterns of fluid flow found in the air. Jumping at dusk when there is a large change in solar flux is probably not a good idea if you have a limited reserve of air space. But if you have a computer capable of 17 petaflops in your squirrel suit.......
Unfortunately those three computers have other work to do.
Edit:
Soaring birds have pretty well worked out the odds. Do you suppose the first pterosaurs got a lot of criticism about the dangers of their flying? In a billion years or so the squirrel suiters will probably work it out.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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airplane pilots have to deal with the phenomenon known as "ground effect". Within 13ft of the ground the airplane can act drastically different than say, at a 110ft.
i wonder if these close prox squirrel suiters are experiencing this phenomenon?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Its really simple. Fly close to hard sh#t at high speed in a vehicle with crappy steering and no brakes and you will die sooner rather than later.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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tradman, you honestly fail to see the similarity of commitment between the two disciplines??
You can focus on the number of participants, number of deaths, ect..... but both have the same level of commitment. Both take away safety margins decreasing your chance of survival.
But you go ahead and focus on the numbers. And ignore the fundamental and universal similarities :)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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Hey, Jim: Sorry about that. It was a direct quote from the article. Not my quotes. I'll fix the post, although I did say where it came from. Of course it was a huge loss, no doubt. Unfortunately, as I said, more will follow.
BAd
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Current wingsuit design(s) must lack something.
With better designed suits, the margins will just get smaller. Results will be the same.
It's the obstacles, these guys are running a gauntlet. They wait to see the individual lashes around the whites of the eyes of their enemy. Calling them brave doesn't do justice, they are far beyond brave. The skill and commitment of the Kamikaze pilots comes to mind, but no, these fellows are not following orders or fulfilling a religious duty. This is individual free will.
It may be magic. Magicians pursuing an art. A craft where at the most critical of moments the practitioner thwarts the laws of physics and bends the rules of science. Like the terminally ill patient waiting for unanswered prayers to be fulfilled, they finally succumb.
The difference is that the disease hunted down the terminally ill, whereas proximity flyers are the hunters, stalking the finest of lines between life and death. A line measured in milliseconds.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Actually no. It's nothing like climbing. These guys are soloing at and beyond their red point limits every flight. I don't personally know A single climber who does that.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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airplane pilots have to deal with the phenomenon known as "ground effect". Within 13ft of the ground the airplane can act drastically different than say, at a 110ft.
i wonder if these close prox squirrel suiters are experiencing this phenomenon
Ground effect is the result of higher pressure under the wing, it is basically a "bubble" of air. The effect is felt roughly one wingspan distance from the ground. This effect is what causes planes to float down a runway when trying to land. The effect is quite dramatic in small planes. Since wingsuits generate little lift the effect would be minimal and would only be felt a few feet off the deck. In fact ground effect would tend to lift the flyer as he passed above an obstruction
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Yea probably all factors too.
But I do think that there probably is something about this endeavor in particular that, when combined with our human belief processes, causes us to miscalculate more frequently than other endeavors. Free soloing, while appealing to the same male ego, doesn't result in the same death rate.
And I think that environment of BASE jumping GoPro Be A Hero does incite or incents more people to miscalculate than the similar high risk environment of free soloing.
So for me, I think those folks who have been incited or incented by their environment to participate in the sport are also victims of their environment, the same way that their loved ones, incited or incented to love them by their environment of being related to them, are victims of their environment as well, when faced with the grief of that persons loss.
When a base jumper dies, it doesn't cause me all that much grief, because I'm in an environment where I don't know them. But their loved ones do suffer a lot of grief, because they're in an environment of knowing and loving and missing the person. That difference in outcomes between me not suffering and them suffering is unrelated to our moral righteousness - I just got lucky, and they unlucky. They could use their free will to avoid the victimization of that pain by not loving their husband or dad or whoever - to change the way they feel about them to, for example, the way that Trump feels about immigrants ... but can they, really?
We climbers, while taking the morally righteous risk of climbing up to chop bolts in order to protect the dignity of our first ascents, we take risks too. If the dividing line between whether our risk taking is morally righteous or not is whether or not we fall ... so far I've been morally righteously lucky. But I think that the morally righteous part of it is more related to other aspects of our (evolutionary) environment.
jstan - nicely said :-)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 31, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
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Bad Climber, I just found the film you spoke of, Sunshine Superman, with Largo and the Trollryggen. It's a Netflix offering.
I can't help it, but Boenish reminds me of Forrest Gump. Good film. I've always been impressed by the Troll Wall and environs.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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Yeah, Boenish was an odd fish.
A safe new year to all you BASE hounds, okay?
BAd
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, ... oh my, :(
my condolences to his family and loved ones...
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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I'm very sorry to hear of his death. I only know of him from a couple years ago. Prying open and breaking the door on the Peak-to-Peak gondola at WB gave BASE jumpers some very bad publicity.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Heisenberg is a true coward
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Back in the '70s, Mountain magazine started a page following 'extreme skiing'. If I recall right the page only ran for three issues and the third was basically and editorially saying they were dropping coverage because several of them had died since the last issue.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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That is a crazy video(Dickinson). I wish he wore a florescent wingsuit because I lost him in the trees.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Graham Dickinson has passed away in, yet another, tragic wingsuit accident.
While Dickinson survived that plunge, his latest daredevil stunt did not go as well. Dickinson died while "wingsuit" flying in China.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Thanks for still thinking of me Brooke(flip dip). I'm honestly flattered, but unlike you I'm not into guys.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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That is a crazy video(Dickinson). I wish he wore a florescent wingsuit because I lost him in the trees.
Holy cr@p.... that was absolutely insane. Like that Star Wars episode on the Ewok planet where they're zipping through the forest, but even faster.... and real!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2017 - 06:32am PT
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Yeah, Fear, my thoughts exactly. His end was quite predictable, and I guess it must have been to him, too. How could it not be? His base jumping friends knew it. They were all just waiting for the news. The guy had some amazing flights. Adieu, Mr. Dickinson.
BAd
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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all the folks doing proxy flying are already dead. its not a matter of if but when. just like rideing a motorcycle at race speeds. you know you are going to wreck ocasionaly but chances are you walk away from most of the wrecks. you don't walk away from these wingsuit wrecks.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Yep. Watching that video; not if, when. No margin. It's fun (I used to road race formula cars so know what the thrill is, greatly reduced) but still.....watching that I thought doomed. Too bad and sorry. Be a hero my ass. Shut up GoPro.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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Yeah, Winemaker, when I see that GoPro slogan, it kinda makes me sick. Be a hero. Splatter hard. Ugh.
BAd
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I mean, what's the worst that could happen?
And phukk yeah, that Dickinson line is otherwordly. knuck tatts: DONT CARE
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Gunkie wrote in August:
Everytime I see this thread I go to the BLINC BASE fatality list. It's a bit of morbid curiosity. The number of listed killed BASE jumping just went through 300 (now 301). So right now #302 is out there alive and well.
Don't be #302.
Now it's Don't be # 314.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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In SoIll we always said, "the deader the better", but we were never trying quite so hard to put it into practice and I can assure you we enjoyed a good rush as much as the next guy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Why is it only first world people who think it fun and noble to try to kill yerself?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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As a race though we need people like this that are willing to hang it all out there. Not for squirrel suiting but for greater purposes that involve insane risks.
Think of the first guys to sit on top of that ICBM and get shot into space. The first guys to step on the moon. Test pilots.
The first SEAL through the door of a particularly nasty bad guy.
Candles that burn bright and more often than not, briefly.
And maybe someday we'll get back on track for more positive exploration. These personalities will be needed.
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WBraun
climber
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These personalities will be needed.
They are not even needed, nor can you create them.
They are always already there ......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Reilly. its a first world thing because you need leisure time and desposible income to to be into adventure sports. Most of those folks who are to busy just trying to stay alive don't have the time or means to think up something as silly as ice climbing or base jumping......
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nathanael
climber
CA
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It's not just 1st world people. It's just 1st world people have the money to make movies about it. There's plenty of stupid dangerous stuff people do for thrills that costs nothing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I was actually thinking of the origins of bunji jumping when i posted that... More thought on the matter and certainly native americans raided each other to steal horses, women and scalps quite often not out of actual need but to satisfy the testosterone urges of young men who need to cheat death and show off for the girls....
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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As a race though we need people like this that are willing to hang it all out there. Not for squirrel suiting but for greater purposes that involve insane risks.
Think of the first guys to sit on top of that ICBM and get shot into space. The first guys to step on the moon. Test pilots.
The first SEAL through the door of a particularly nasty bad guy.
Candles that burn bright and more often than not, briefly.
And maybe someday we'll get back on track for more positive exploration. These personalities will be needed.
This. There's more "recent" Afghan/Iraqi war vets in BASE jumping than you can imagine. It does, it helps them cope with the thrill, the brotherhood and loss of war. It's saved way more lives than it's taken.
But yes, we all knew Graham was never gonna' make it. There's a 100 Grahams out there right now, clock ticking. And not just wingsuit BASE..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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More thought on the matter and certainly native americans raided each other to steal horses, women and scalps quite often not out of actual need but to satisfy the testosterone urges of young men who need to cheat death and show off for the girls....
Scalping did happen as part of raids, but more among some of the larger and more brutal plains tribes than among indians in general. And colonists took to the practice like ducks to water as part of their broader campaign of genocide.
By 1723, Massachusetts was paying 100 pounds sterling for the scalps of male Indians aged 12 and over, and half that for women and children.
As far as the tower diving goes, my bet's on a particularly charismatic schizophrenic coming back into the village one day saying, "I've got a great idea...."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The native american practice of counting Coup when you rush into battle and simply touch the enemy with a stick instead of killing him with a war club to show your bravery, sneaking up on sleeping bears to cut some hair off their butt and show your bravery. Young men have probobly always done stupid sh#t to show off and get a thrill...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2017 - 06:20am PT
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Wow, thanks so much for that post, Healyje. Silly boyz gotta get their extreme on. The design of that tower was brilliant, the shifting lever to absorb shock. But the virtual face-plants--oy!
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Thank you, Mike Honcho for offering some fresh air in a room full of farts.
Yeah man! To be clear, this is Hank Caylor. You guys also gotta' remember BASE jumping and climbing have a very sketchy and close historical relationship.
Thomas Cosgriff
Randy Leavitt
Rob Slater
Xavier Bongard
Will Oxx
Etc.
These guys were all at the vanguard of BASE jumping when it 1st came to any type of popularity, and if there'd been wingsuits every single one of them would have been WAY into them!
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 26, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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^^ You can't broad brush one person's criminal activity to the whole sport, but yeah - the sketch factor is interesting.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
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In 2005, he escorted another man onto an adjacent property to videotape him having sex with a stallion. The man later died from internal injuries.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 27, 2017 - 03:35am PT
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that was quite the disturbing read.....
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 27, 2017 - 05:35am PT
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Was the horse ok?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Feb 27, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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I had a friend who raised and trained Arabian horses. I was there one day during a breeding. It was the most brutal thing I had ever witnessed. Stallions don't play. Anyone who remotely thinks this would be a good idea as a participant must have an epic case of world class self hatred. I shudder at the thought.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 13, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
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hey there say, ß Î Ø T Ç H ...sadly, i saw this, too...
thanks for sharing... :(
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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Apr 19, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
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Regarding proximity flight versions of base/wingsuit flight
Over a hundred years ago..a bunch of young men inthier flying machines learned tragically the lessons this generations barnstormers have deluded themselves into thinking they can do...all pilots are taught how stupid this type of flying is...
These kids don't realize they are pilots of the worst aircrafts ever built. Yet they try to do what the best cannot do safely.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2018 - 06:31am PT
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Thanks for that video, Rockermike. Well, Steph's all in, that's for sure. Wow.
BAd
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 20, 2018 - 06:56am PT
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Red Bull Gives You Wings
Fukin lol
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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GEEEEEEEEEEZ these videos are no different than the red neck barbie truck races posted by Aeriq on the redneck coal thread. They look and dress differently, probably more education and schooling but just as red necked in my book.
Either way, the gene pool is what it is.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Ouch! There's soooo much first-person footage now of horrible stuff due to technology. If that existed 40 years ago none of us would likely have left the couch.
Go forth boldly, and as my hang-gliding instructor used to say, "Stay away from solids".
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Glide Ratio is not 'forgiving'... not really like strength to weight in climbing where one can compensate.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2019 - 05:16pm PT
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Yikes. Anyone interested in BASE should watch such videos. Ugh.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Well, I'm the last guy to judge, and I sincerely mean that.
But let's be clear: You're not FLYING. You're at best GLIDING, and that with a very, VERY high fall-rate.
When the one guy in the above video says (all animated), "For as long as we've had brains big enough to think, we've looked up at birds... and, wow, now we're doing it!"
Uh, no.
It's that sort of hysteria about the sport that makes some of its practitioners seem like whack-jobs.
Soberly assessing the risk-to-reward ratio and DECIDING that you are willing to die for what you get out of it until you die... well, that's one thing, and I can respect that.
But I can't respect hysterical posturing about achieving "flight." It's not just hyperbolic; it's a quite apparent dismissal of the REALITIES of the FACT that, unlike birds, you ARE coming down in very short order and with a relative minimum of actual control.
That said, if we own anything, we own ourselves. Life in the best case is short, even when measured against it perhaps being shorter. So, pack it full of experiences and, hopefully, character development as a result. More power to the jumpers. Carry on.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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MB, hi-perf sailplanes have a 60/1 l/d. Those wannabe dirt nappers have like 2/1.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Exactamundo.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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most of the fails in the "fail" video seem to slam back into the thing off which the jumper is jumping
can someone explain to me why that event happens with what seems to be regular frequency
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Proximity flying. Fukkn lol
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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ms55401,
I will attempt to answer your question. But I don't speak from B.A.S.E. experience. From my limited student experience in learning paragliding there is the issue of "rotor" there are other terms that apply. Again still learning. But imagine you have a rock in moving water. Behind the rock the water moves in circles. Called an eddy. The same thing happens with air but you can't see it.
We train to understand topography where a rotor might occur given wind direction or the "venture effect" will occur, an area where winds are channeled through a canyon or depression which causes the wind speed to increase. This may blow you backward. So think about a group of sky scrapers.
My guess, only a guess is that these sorts of factors can cause a "spin" and transitioning from inflation to grabbing your brakes you are vulnerable.
There is so much more to it but that is my basic understanding and should not be considered correct. We fly with our wing already open with (for me) an 8:1 glide ratio
Edit:
VVVVVVV Hell no to me? I already said I'm not sure I understand what I'm talking about. I'm still a student.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Hell no!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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skywalker, a ‘rotor’ is formed when strong winds flow over a ridge and basically turn into a
horizontal ‘tornado’, for want of a better word, on the lee side. The Sierras are famous for
‘rotors’ in the winter but they can happen at any time. I’ve flown in a few in power planes.
It gets yer attention, to put it mildly. The pax usually think they’re about to die. I’ve also
been in some ‘dust devils’ in a sailplane that were the equal of a Sierra ‘rotor’. The ‘variometer’ was pegged so I had no accurate knowledge of my rate of climb but by watching
the altimeter spin it was probably at least 1000’/minute, and that was in a 45 degree bank
with the stick in my crotch. My head was banging against the canopy and I was worried that
I would bite my tongue.
BASE accidents are not due to ‘rotors’. They can be due to a small localized ‘eddy’ as you
put it. About 1992 a United B737 crashed while on approach to Colorado Springs, partly due
to flying into a rotor that had ‘settled’ at a lower altitude.
FYI, the FAA puts out a very good book entitled Aviation Weather.
It is cheap at twice its $15.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sky walker. I just got my P3!
I used to skydive and do BASE.
On skydiving canopies, you can fly through a wicked thermal and not feel a bump. They are smaller and faster than speed wings. In free fall, you also don’t feel turbulence of any sort.
Just very different gear. Different purposes.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Thanks for the clarification! Like I said I'm still learning. I only have 11 hrs of flight so I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Every safe landing seems like a miracle LOL. Congrats Base on your P3!!! It's a lot of work!
S...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I am heading to Florida to do XC for two months. I did it last year. It is a ton of fun to climb to 6500 all on nylon and string.
For real heavy air, visit Valles de Bravo and enjoy your first collapses.
After Florida, I am heading to Chelan. My son is grown and I am free to go play again.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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visit Valles de Bravo and enjoy your first collapses.
Hahahaha.
Enjoy man! Send a video!
Cheers!!!!
S.....
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Gnome thanks! Holy crap what a story!
Cheers!!!
S...
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Times 2 GNome!!! I know all about this story but have never seen this video, what a gem baby!
Caylor!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2019 - 08:42pm PT
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Just watched BASE, a documentary on Amazon featuring Alexander Poli and a couple of other dead BASE jumpers. As someone fascinated by this insanity, I found it compelling--but it was also deeply, deeply disturbing. It's a blend of bizarre and obscene narcissism, and, frankly, Poli comes across as kind of an a-hole. To my mind, one is left seeing this "sport" as kind of bro-centric death cult. The film tries to end on some sort of high note about living in the moment, but it rings bitterly hollow to me. Warning, there is some grim footage in this film. I'd be interested in what others think of it.
BAd
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2019 - 06:46am PT
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So his two friends DIDN'T die base jumping? The second dude didn't auger into that rock? The "fictional" nature of it sure explains the excessive filming. Hah! Thanks for that. I got taken--sort of. But at least two of those guys are dead from the sport, so kind of a documentary. I guess a docu-drama.
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:46am PT
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Polli was a buddy of mine, he was very much loved in the BASE community. He partied really really hard and went full on at all times. It's crazy how many pictures I have where I'm the only one still alive in them..
Caylor
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2019 - 06:55am PT
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Hey, Caylor, that's rough. Watch your own chute, okay?
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 26, 2019 - 07:44am PT
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Hey, Caylor, that's rough. Watch your own chute, okay?
Will do dude! Except for a few International events every year I only jump with my wife, just us 2. Jumping with the wife tends to throttle me back bigtime. So much so that we're considered pretty pedestrian old farts nowadays, which is fine.
Caylor
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Feb 26, 2019 - 09:23am PT
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"F%^K, I'm back in the building." One of the most classic lines I've ever heard (paraphrased) from the BASE realm.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Feb 26, 2019 - 02:46pm PT
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skywalker1 posted:
... a rotor might occur given wind direction or the "venture effect" will occur, an area where winds are channeled through a canyon or depression which causes the wind speed to increase. I think you may mean Venturi effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 26, 2019 - 03:04pm PT
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Some context to Bargainbasements comment.. funny how your comment has no context dipsh#t.
That silly video of outtakes was actually the B-side to a rad as hell DVD.
Being entertaining on camera has it's price I guess.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Caylor
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Feb 26, 2019 - 03:51pm PT
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Sula,
I already admitted that I'm a noob in this activity and was simply trying to answer a question. Yes I misspelled. I'm only a P2 but training.
Sheesh.
S...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 26, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
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Sula, I already splained that stuff. A ‘rotor’ has a specific definition in the real flying world.
FAA advisory circular AC 00-57 spells it out for you. There’s no way any wing suiter or parasailor will survive a rotor encounter. A modern hang glider might, but unlikely, especially if a B737 can’t.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 06:34pm PT
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Mike Honcho wrote:
Some context to Bargainbasements comment.. funny how your comment has no context dipsh#t.
That silly video of outtakes was actually the B-side to a rad as hell DVD.
Being entertaining on camera has it's price I guess. .
Hank, not sure why you are insulting me (and Jim Brennan was as well???)? Gunkie was referring to you swinging back into the building, and it was referenced by you in that spot of your outtake video. Some people may not know that Gunkie was referring to your swinging back in the building, breaking through a hotel window! That’s what I was clarifying to those who might not know the context of Gunkie’s quote. Clearly the outtake video was taken from the original Sender Film. No sure why you are so cross, unless you don’t like your outtake video. I think it’s awesome, and paints you as a legend; I think most people on the forum would agree. But if you don’t like it, I’ll remove the link. Must be a internet forum miscommunication thing. Again, not sure why you got offended, and felt the need to be insulting.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Feb 26, 2019 - 07:28pm PT
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Jim Brennan wrote:I'll speak for myself.
There has been a glacial creep of opinion on this forum that ends in people who formerly loved having adventures, wringing their hands and saying things like base jumping is bad, solo rock and mountain climbing is bad, don't take risks, have you the right credentials to do what you do from having passed a course in safely jumping off of a cliff...?
Bargainhunter, it's good to be wild.
And how does that apply to anything I posted here? I put a link in of Hank saying the quote that Gunkie admired so. Nothing more. Did that video somehow invisibly flag the safety police? I think it's pretty weird of you to insinuate I was somehow passing some sort of judgement. I merely posted a video clarifying where the quote in Gunkie's post came from.
I really liked that video compilation of Hank's, and I only discovered it when I was reading about Southern Belle. If I hadn't seen it, I'd have no idea what Gunkie was referring to. That's why I posted it for context.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:30pm PT
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False equivalency. Stupid is stupid regardless of age. Wastrels avoiding lives of meaning in favor of MoMo BroBro dipshittery
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Feb 26, 2019 - 10:54pm PT
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Maybe so but did you at least watch a little longer? It actually won at the Banff Film festival. Its the spirit.
My point of posting is that I'm a middle aged child working my way back to a seven year old. And that I agree with Jim. I just see folks telling others that your gonna die doing this and that but they don't understand the sport/ activity.
I agree with him. And I agree with him that there is a feeling that folks judge too quickly. I won't fly unless everything is perfect. I sometimes sit for hours and walk away. But to judge me or others on that it is crazy, you may not understand. I don't judge someones belief in themself that they can run a class V. If they put in the work then I assume they can do it and I will be right in front to set safety cause I have.
Its not much different then saying I'm gonna do a Grade VI first ascent in the Black. If you have done the work then you have. Go have fun if it makes your freak flag fly.
S....
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Feb 27, 2019 - 05:17am PT
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Bargainhunter, thanks for posting the video; it's awesome. Caylor, you're an inspiration for wide variety of reasons.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 27, 2019 - 06:13am PT
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I didn't say anything about Jim Brennan at all, not sure where you came away with anything like that. Don't remove the link, but yes, I hate that video. The dude's at Sender Films never said that there would be an additional DVD with that on it. I'm all sobered up now so it is positively cringe worthy to me.
However, you didn't actually provide any context when you posted it. When people just see just that blooper reel on its own I just look like a maniac, and not the good kind. I always feel the need to remind folks that that was apart of a popular film that I was a proper shredding machine in. I got on the cover of Rock and Ice the same month The Sharp End premiered.
Sorry I called you a dipsh#t. Not much of an insult to get so worked up about, but I am sorry. I'm glad folks like the video..
edit- our most recent jump in Moab. The wife LOOOVES it when her Pugs get to race out to the LZ after we land.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Caylor
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perswig
climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 06:42am PT
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How's this for an insult:
You got outrun by a couple of pugs!
But the pre-launch kiss ritual always kills me.
Keep up the good work.
Dale
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 27, 2019 - 07:16am PT
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Unless you've died BASE jumping then you're kinda ignorant. Solid logic by the BASE idiots.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 27, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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You got outrun by a couple of pugs!
HAHAHAHA! I sent that to my 72 year old Dad and he said the exact same damn thing! But if you run to fast the video bounces and looks like sh#t, and we can't have that now can we?
Caylor
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Feb 27, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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another ankle biting worthless post from flip, so bitter due to lack of meds
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2019 - 07:24am PT
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Yeah, love the berserk pugs. That would be a great band name, btw.
The Berserk Pugs will be opening for Def Leopard this weekend at the Hollywood Bowl!
BAd
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 27, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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"Look at me" right Honcho?
Why else post on a thread dedicated to laughing at your stupidity. Honcho, Fail videos are massively appealing. It's a culture of Jackasses and their leg humping bros. Go do what you love.
Dead friends are the best friends. If you're a dipsh#t.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 27, 2019 - 09:34am PT
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"Nice beaver" "Thanks, I had it stuffed yesterday"
I always understood it as safety 3rd.. 1st sounds like a way better idea!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Caylor
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 27, 2019 - 10:00am PT
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Yeah, I think BASE jumping is suicidal and all, but who am I to judge? I've been a caver, a rock climber, a half-ass mountaineer, etc. Can I call someone suicidal when I've been on a run out lead with nothing for pro but a tied sling through a rock tunnel that wouldn't even hold body weight? I don't think so.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 27, 2019 - 11:48am PT
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BTW, if you want to see the power of a rotor google the British Airways flight that tried to land at Gibraltar the other day. It looked to me that a strong SE wind was blowing over The Rock. The airport is on the lee side and the A321 on approach was rolling almost 45 degrees each way! Clear evidence of a rotor.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 27, 2019 - 12:09pm PT
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Yeah, I think BASE jumping is suicidal and all, but who am I to judge? I've been a caver, a rock climber, a half-ass mountaineer, etc. Can I call someone suicidal when I've been on a run out lead with nothing for pro but a tied sling through a rock tunnel that wouldn't even hold body weight? I don't think so.
Yep...it's all relative...
We're all soloing everyday whether we accept it or not.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 27, 2019 - 01:06pm PT
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Reilly, current thinking is that was an oscillation tied to the flap position of the A319/320/321 family and asymmetirc loading due to gusting. There was a software fix a while ago for asymmetric flap loading at full flaps leading to oscillation driven by the FBW computers. When the flaps were retracted the swings went away, as you can see from passenger footage of the event. It initially looks like PIO, but probably wasn't. Actually pretty scary from the passenger point of view.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Feb 27, 2019 - 03:43pm PT
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Heisenberg, word. . .df
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 27, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
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Yeah, I think BASE jumping is suicidal and all
I think there a big range of risk in BASE just like in climbing. As BASE104 mentions a standard jump off El Cap really isn’t that risky if you don’t make a mistake. But some proximity wingsuit flights I’ve seen are super dangerous. Just like climbing on solid rock isn’t that risky but free soloing is way higher risk.
Im glad to hear you have throttled back Caylor.
The thing about pushing the limits is sometimes someone goes over that limit. I have a lot of respect for those with the bravery and drive to push the limits. But I also like to see someone who decides to dial it back at some point, for whatever reason: they’ve had a close call, they’ve done what they need to, they get older or have family etc.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Feb 27, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
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Ouch. Watching this stuff brought back memories; Bob Boenish, Carl's brother, was on my pit crew when I ran a formula car race shop in Seattle. His wife's brother was killed in a glider accident while performing stunts. Small, painful world.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 27, 2019 - 11:11pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
It’s tough to watch the base and climbing fails (I’m glad we didn’t have these vids BITD when I was learning. But I think you are probably safer and more prepared seeing what can go wrong. Like reading accidents in NA mountaineering.
The supposedly safe sport climbs are some of the nastiest looking falls. Some are because the person doesn’t know how to fall correctly but some are just falling where it ends up with a swing into the rock.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 28, 2019 - 06:11am PT
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It’s tough to watch the base and climbing fails (I’m glad we didn’t have these vids BITD when I was learning.
Tom Aiello has a hideous video collection of super graphic fatalities and has his students watch it during his BASE courses in Twin Falls. He busted it out at a big party in Moab one time and it did not go over well with the gang..
Caylor
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2019 - 06:58am PT
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@Flip: This thread--started by me--is not about mocking Caylor. You have a reading comprehension problem.
That para-sail/BASE fails video is sobering. I can't believe all those people survived. Of course, they are probably going to be living with life-long pain, but they are alive. I was TOTALLY gripped watching that Euro dude struggle with his wing. I guess he popped a chute? Wow.
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 28, 2019 - 07:11am PT
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He's mocking me? I literally pay so little attention to that guy I wasn't aware I was any target.. For real though, you've all seen that awful mash-up on YouTube of me just spewing hard and all over the place, I really do make a very easy target. Doesn't seem to be any sport in it.
edit-I was TOTALLY gripped watching that Euro dude struggle with his wing. I guess he popped a chute? Wow. No, he went in with nothing out. Crazy.
Caylor
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2019 - 07:32am PT
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Whoa, Caylor, that's wild. He didn't seem to hit that hard. FWIW, the mash up is pretty funny--in a good way. You've been around a while and been pushing it, so you've got some battle stories. We all do. My thought on seeing that? I wanna hang out with that guy!
Cheers,
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Feb 28, 2019 - 07:41am PT
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He's my doppleganger in a way. We've both survived the BASE jumping accident that has never happened before and will never happen again.
Actually this guy also makes the cut, he was fine and still jumping the next day.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 28, 2019 - 08:24am PT
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Yosar.. yes
Big Walls.....yes
Big Wall Solo.... yes
Trans Sierra Ski....yes
Big Tele lines.....yes
Big Waves.....yes
Class IV boating.... yes
Alpine Routes.... yes
Alpine Solo.... yes
Rescue training.....yes
WEMT......yes
Avalanche Training.....yes
Builder.....yes
Deep Scuba.....yes
I'm not risk averse. Prison tattoos don't scare me. Hell, I threw two peckerwood idiots to the ground just last week.
I'm an intellectual in an anti intellectual world. Battling against dangerous stupidity is my hobby.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Feb 28, 2019 - 03:27pm PT
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^^
Hell, I threw two peckerwood idiots to the ground just last week.
I'm an intellectual in an anti intellectual world. Battling against dangerous stupidity is my hobby.
Wow. Mid to late 40’s male bragging about beating up some 18 yo kids? Classic Brooke. They take your meds? That statement shows you have the intellect of a sloth.
If one looks at every bit of garbage you have said about risk, base, other people: you are the antithesis of intellectual.
And for you to list all of the things you’ve done (WEMT is soooo risky wow!)
Makes you basically a liar. It’s like anyone who has to begin a sentence with “I have to be honest with you” - basically they too are a liar. Or people who feel the need to spray when NO ONE ASKED! Your list is funny of things you wanted to do.
But I digress
Back to BASE and the beginnings of trouble for the respect of BadClimber
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2019 - 09:07pm PT
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I've learned a lot from these threads, and it seems that BASE per se can be "reasonably" safe with proper training. Leading hard rock climbs and alpinism are dangerous, too. Proxy wingsuit is like extreme Himalayan climbing, which is friggin' dangerous. Looks like Alison Hargreave's son just died on Nanga Parbat. The death toll for Himalayan climbs is relentless. I suspect that reasonably careful BASE jumpers are playing a safer game. Any stats on the sport as a whole?
BAd
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Feb 28, 2019 - 10:40pm PT
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Any stats on the sport as a whole?
I don't have any stats as a whole. Do you have any on gear climbing? Age of a rope or harness? I'm not trying to be a (D.B) to you.
Do I look up statistics before I attempt something? No. I can either do them or not. Its based on can I reasonably execute this. Usually its kinda of eyeballing it with a little math involved and physical fitness. Have you done your homework?
If things don't look favorable you back off. Or as they say "dial it down". Or walk away. It ain't going anywhere.
S...
Sorry this website comes across as a tough crowd but we are mostly chill people. Just one of those kids that had ideas!!!
Are you considering this Bad Climber?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Heisenberg, you're dumb, you've done nothing interesting, you're a coward. And WEMT is about intellect and responsibility. I could haul your corpse up a wall faster than you could climb it. You're nothing. Nothing at all. Zero. My resume makes you look like the failure that you are. Nothing of interest. Weak. Lame. Loser. Always hiding because you're a leaky diaper.
( the tatted peckerwood was about 35 and 235 lbs of prison meat with a long rap sheet and a longer history of assault. He was harassing a girl and he ran away fast and quiet once I let him stand up... Imagine how you'd fare, Heisenberg. Keep hiding, chickenshit)
And I don't need to lie but you do. Why is that?
Heisenberg lying " Brooke (aka flip flop) has been on and off meds for quite some time I suspect. Stanley always thought he was a DB. I went skiing with Brooke on one of his bday adventures, and it's that day I realized he was a complete DB.
But remember Brooke is a gym climber at heart. No risk, he's a complete poser here on the forum like he's some kind of trad climber from "back in the day"
You didn't know Stanley. Making up stuff that he didn't say shows your lack of character.You don't know me. You only watched my birthday on your computer. I climbed multiple big walls and alpine routes before I ever set foot in a gym, because um 1990's early there were no gyms. Also, not on meds never have been. Stupid and wrong is why you've got no accomplishments in climbing.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2019 - 07:04am PT
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Hey, Skywalker:
No, I'm not about to become a BASE jumper, but it is interesting to do some actuarial comparisons for risk. Folks who are afraid of dying in a commercial plane crash, for example, are WAY more likely to die driving or walking in a city, and these, of course, are not high risk activities. With such a fringe sport like BASE, it would be pretty hard to collect numbers, but it would be interesting to see how many people do the sport, rate of injuries, etc. The injury rate must be higher than rock climbing, but I don't know. Skateboarding--and not the BASE kind--has gotta have quite the injury rate, too! Death rate, not so high. Heh.
But looking at stats wouldn't be a bad idea before getting into a sport--not that anyone would likely do it.
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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I've got at least 25 dead "friends" on Facebook and another 25 that were never on Facebook. Not on Facebook is Derek Hersey, Rob Slater, Charlie Fowler, Jeff Lowe and a few others from various ways. The vast majority were all BASE jumper friends, and not acquaintances, like good friends, 2 of whom I saw explode very up close and personal.
However you're onto the bigger picture BAd, the number of friends I have that have destroyed their bodies irreparably and forever is double that. And that's just the folks I actually know.. My left ankle will either be fused or lopped of in 10 years(I'll be 50 next month), my wife who I threatened with divorce if she ever even thought about BASE jumping broke her femur and back in 2 places(she's 42). We're both very active and fit but that sh#t hurts more and more all the time.
Funny you mention "commercial airline travel". My second biggest fear next to monkeys is going down in a commercial flight. Travel petrifies me, but I do it anyways. Anyways, I have a rare week off so I'm all over this thread and rambling.
http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/ <------ an incomplete list of BASE fatalitites. It hasn't been updated in a few years.
You can also go to basejumper.com and create an account and there's literally 1,000's of uber graphic accidents. It's estimated that less than 5,000 active BASE jumpers are on the planet.
Caylor
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WBraun
climber
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Anyways, I have a rare week off so I'm all over this thread and rambling.
So that's why criminals are running loose all over the place ...... :-)
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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So that's why criminals are running loose all over the place ...... :-) The similarities are pretty shocking Werner. Clearly my wheels came off a long time ago.
Caylor
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2019 - 11:12am PT
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Damn, Caylor, I can't imagine losing so many friends. I've only played the climbing game at a moderate level and not hung around extremists much, so I've been lucky in that regard. Of my circle of acquaintances and friends, I've lost one climber to a heart attack at 50 when he lay down for a nap--a good guy named Eric Brand that some here on ST knew, and one to a plane crash scouting for BASE jumping sites--Earl Redfern. I knew RD Cochran (sp?) way back in the day from bouldering, and he died on Makalu, I believe, from HAPE. And that's it for anyone I was remotely close to. Rock climbing is basically pretty safe!
Re. your and your wife's injuries: So have you both packed your chutes for the last time, so to speak? No more BASE?
If you want an interesting read about airline crashes, check out Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. There's a chapter in there about how/why crashes occur. Fascinating. It's still way safer than driving.
BAd
Oh, and Clancy, of course. RIP!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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BAd, I am a walking compendium of aviation accidents. The evidence is unanimous -
they’re all caused by crankloons!
BTW, y’all no doubt missed the crash last week in Houston, right? B767 freighter went right
into Houston Bay without so much as an ‘Oh, sh!t’ from the crew! 😐
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Bad, is that the Eric Brand that FAed Heartland with Barbella?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2019 - 07:20am PT
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MB1: I think so. I'm not up on all he did in the Valley. He was also on the FA of Mt. Thor in Baffin with Redfern and another guy.
BAd
Edit: @Reilly: Yeah, it's amazing how cranks crash planes. I have an acquaintance who is a very experienced Air force pilot and flight instructor, and he made it clear to me that the notoriously bad Korean pilots were part of a trend of commercial pilots who were NOT good flyers. Computers do most of the work, and the pilots themselves don't get nearly enough experience actually controlling the planes. Gladwell's chapter about cockpit communication and power dynamics between people is fascinating--and scary. At least out of control BASE jumpers are mostly just endangering themselves. Ugh.
BAd
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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Re. your and your wife's injuries: So have you both packed your chutes for the last time, so to speak? No more BASE?
Oh no, we've both made literally hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps since then. But we're much more conservative now, so far no injuries too serious since. We live about 2hrs from Moab so we still make at least a few jumps a month. BASE is still in our "Top 5" things we like to do, but we try to keep mixing it up as much as possible.
As well, I was very good friends with Earl Redfern and the kid he was flying with when they both went in.
edit- Gunkie, that kite surfing video was brutal.. no way, not ever.
Caylor
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2019 - 11:43am PT
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That's what I had thought. So what's the deal with all those twisted line scenarios featured in the "fail" compilations? That's friggin' terrifying. Does proper technique make that a non-issue? Newer gear?
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Thanks, Bad. I thought so, and I'm saddened to hear it. Really nice guy, in my experience.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
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So what's the deal with all those twisted line scenarios featured in the "fail" compilations? That's friggin' terrifying. Does proper technique make that a non-issue? Newer gear?
Amongst the worse and most debated BASE malfunctions is the "180", your parachute comes off your back and before or while inflating spins in a direction not facing forward. Several immediate reasons that come to mind are a sloppy pack job, a left to right or right to left wind gust or poor body position are the usual suspects when that happens. Frankly, sometimes it just inflates like sh#t for no reason.
Now, if it's a slow to develop uneven canopy inflation there's a variety of things that you can try to straighten things out and get your canopy turned in the right direction. But if it's a hard thwacker opening sometimes your body spins the lines up and your problems just multiplied. It would take too long to go through all of it. But a "180" can be a chill one that you get turned around like a boss or it can be a more violent opening and your spinning up your lines faster than you can react.
Short story gone a little long, every BASE jumper will eventually have a 180 and there's many factors that could cause it to be an easier or horrific malfunction to deal with.
This video is the classic "what the hell caused that" linetwist malfunction. She seems far away from the object, her body position looks fine, but it came off her back in a way that once her lines started to spin up they just kept spinning. Full on nightmare regardless.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
When BASE jumping goes correctly it's just so damn beautiful and cool, but when it goes bad it's such a heinous nightmare..
Caylor
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
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In that overly dramatic video the narrator says that if the snagged chute rips both the jumper and the rescuer would fall...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, caylor... happy good eve to you!! always nice to
run into you, on the ol' internet... :)
ahhhh, well nowwww... since you have a week off...
HERE YOU ARE, ;)
so--here is a 'happy good eve' (double) now, to you and your wife!
*got to run... i only peek at a few videos... (too much worry, or
concern) ...
going to cook some supper...
thanks for sharing you wisdom here with folks...
and for being so open, as to all this...
:)
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