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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
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Time to start a thread on the issue of the Royal Arches Rappel. I got stuck on this route as a new climber myself. I remember very well climbing up and looking at webbing tied on bushes and going man I sure wouldn't rap off that! Then later that night, somehow we were! I'm not so sure of the actual rap route because we rapped the route. It took a long time and we didn't have a headlamp, only a low on fluid lighter. I suggest for this route only, since its such a neebie go to , to paint the rap hangers with a reflective paint....only for rap anchors. Then you could flash your headlamp around and find em. Like looking for your tent with the reflective zipper end at night in the woods. I sure don't have all the answers, maybe none, but I'm just moving the off topic stuff from Cody's thread. Anybody??
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
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That's a good idea but I doubt the durability of paint. I'm thinking something like attaching a bike reflector. Also on blind raps with anchors off the fall line adding a clear marker of some sort indicating the line of rappel to the next best anchor.
Below is the best Topo and notes I have seen of the rap route by Clint Cummins. wstmrnclmr may be heading there soon to make some changes and cleanup some off route stuff. If so I hope he will make some notes and suggestions for some good next steps if worthwhile.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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Originally posted by Clint Cummins
This is my topo of the rap route.
It sounds like Tony is proposing adding an anchor 90' or so below the big tree at (15).
It might help somebody, but be sure there is a series of anchors within 90' of each other below that also.
Another option would be to place a bolted anchor right of the tree, directly above the 5.2 downclimb corner.
Then people should rap down the corner instead of the slab below the tree.
Many people are unsure about solo downclimbing this corner.
Another option would be to put a sign on the tree: "rappel down the corner, not the face".
There are several areas where the risk is increased, but a person could also die by going past any anchor and going off the end of the rope.
The places which I think have increased risk are:
finding (3). My first trip down, I went past it and had to batman back up the rope.
reaching (4). I do it by rapping to a corner and downclimbing 15' to the anchor on a dying tree. There is also a bolted anchor out to the left, but if you use it, your rope could hang up in blocks up and right of you.
(11). The ant tree, first non-bolted anchor. Might be confusing to some people.
(12). Short and not directly visible from (11). One time, Roger and I didn't see it and continued down and left in the ramp to a small tree anchor. Then down to a wet ramp with a poor bush anchor.
(13). Not visible from 12. Somewhat visible in the daylight from the edge of the wall when on rap. Hard to commit to in the dark.
(14). Sometimes there are slings around a tree, sometimes people just downclimb the 5.0.
(15). The big tree with slings. If you go straight down the face below, I'm not sure how far it is to the closest anchor. This is where Meghan had her accident. Instead, I just downclimb the corner. It's 5.2.
(17). This anchor is not immediately visible from above. And you reach it by downclimbing a 4th class slab.
(18). I placed this anchor (my own bolts and hangers). Last spring I heard one of hangers was missing, so I put a new one on it.
(21). I have trouble finding this anchor in the daylight. Usually I downclimb to the top of the first pitch chimney and rap from slings on a tree. Ed mentioned using the anchor for Astrospam, but this anchor may be difficult to locate from above.
Many of these risks occur because there is no direct line of sight to the next anchor.
These can't be solved by adding new bolted anchors, unless you want to create 20' rappels.
One possibility would be to bolt tags or plaques/arrows to the wall in the line to the next anchor.
And as Matt said, even if the anchors were all easy to find, people could still die if they go past them, or make some error like not having the rope fully through their ATC, or not clipping into the anchor correctly.
My personal theory on rappel safety is to keep it simple, and reduce the number of steps involved. I don't use a prusik backup or knots in the ends of the ropes. I don't simulrap. I take care when pulling the rope to send it in a particular direction. I prefer using a single 60m biweave rope to rap this route.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks for that Climbski2 ....
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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Were that Clint's topo was in the guidebook! But unfortunately it's not.......The problem is the guidebook has a major flaw and the trick is to fix the flaw(s) in such a way that climbers using the guide or the errant rap find the fixes in an obvious way while rapping because there is no practical way to inform them (I suspect that the vast majority of climbers doesn't read supertopo but that they do use the guidebook).
Clint outlines what I want to do at that specific rap. As to the marking of rap stations, Could I suggest the use of road reflectors like those used on freeways? The rectangular ones that can be seen from both sides ( rappellers could see from above and below if passed).
Edit: There are muliple anchor option as Clint points out but they aren't in the guidebook. Once again, people follow the guidebook and thus the error in the guidebook. For those that don't follow the guidebook, they will go wherevere as they would on any climb where they don't use s guide. My fix is addressing the guidebook flaw.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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Sounds good. I'm already starting to research reflectors with ready made brackets that can easily be added to a bolt. Have to have dull/rounded edges though.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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Glue them on next to bolt?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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mebbe, but I like the idea of them being easily removable/replaceable as needed over time. However having them be flush is important for not getting battered by pulled ropes and whatever. Not sure what the best solution will be yet.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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True but it happens almost every night in the summer. See it almost every time I look in the evenings.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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I appreciate that Royal Arches is a really popular tourist route in the valley.
I had a great time climbing it twice in the month of May back in the mid-70's, when the dreaded "rotten-log pitch" was still the biggest thrill.
We of course, walked off the North Dome Gully route both times without incident, even thought the first walk off entailed barely making it to the Mountain Room for a night-cap before closing.
Of course, there is that final nasty, slimy, pine needle covered, and frightening little pitch #16 at the top ----that is only rated 5.4. People have died on it.
Supertopo says this about the North Dome Gully.
3) North Dome Gully
If you have North Dome Gully wired, it’s the fastest descent from Royal Arches. It takes about 2 hours if you’re familiar with the descent, but can take 4 hours if it’s your first time and you get off route
I suspect a lot of wet season parties don't mess with the slime pitch # 16,& Clint's rappel topo shows the first rappel starting before pitch #16.
In my old mind, it makes more sense to put some new bolts on pitch #16 to protect early season & wet weather climbers finishing the climb. Perhaps improvements could also be made to the North Dome Gully trail.
What I am seeing discussed for marking & making the rappel stations harder to miss, reads as inappropriate to me for a mountain environment, and will likely be nixed by the park service.
I really like the slightly risky 2 hour walk down North Dome Gully, vs. more rappel deaths. 21 rappels vs walking for 2 hours down North Dome Gully?
Lots of people are not thinking about their survival odds, on how they choose to exit Royal Arches.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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Yeah I am concerned that any reflectors not be visible from the valley. Might have to make it so they are only reflective from above. I figure just do it without asking since it is a gray area. Just make sure to do it really well, effective and inobtrusive so it is hard to have a good argument against a done deal.
I've always done the NDG.. as I like the hike anyway and don't consider it that bad.
Anyway these or something like them attached to a very small bracket might work well.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
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Reflectors are a poor choice IMO and are not in line with traditional climbing ethics. I think it would be a tacky eyesore and set a bad precedent. Is this a joke? Did April come early?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
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If I do it, it will be no bigger than the bolt hanger and only visible from the direction of rappel from above. Easily removable if people hate em.
Certainly less obtrusive than webbing or cairns.
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The Alpine
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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You've got to be kidding me. You guys seriously think reflectors are a good idea??
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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If I can make a reflector setup much less obtrusive than a cairn or webbing. About or less than the size of many bolt hangers and only visible from above on rappel would folks have any objection?
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The Alpine
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
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Not to disrespect the recently deceased, but he didn't die because he was rappelling at night. He died because he rapped off the ends of his ropes.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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Agreed. the reflectors have gotten a lot more posts than the real key things that have been considered. Such as cleaning up off route slings and anchors and perhaps adding a station or two in better places.
Any of this may or may not have prevented the recent tragedy. I have no idea the situation leading to his rapping off his rope. However I don't see that as a good argument for not making these rapps as quality, simple and nonconfusing as reasonably possible in all conditions.
The only reason I keep going on about the reflectors is I am intrigued by the possibility of making it work effectively without causing more problems than it solves or being a major PITA to do or be any sort of eyesore.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:41pm PT
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I've walked off every time, no drama, but I'm all limber like a cat and like hiking : /
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
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There is a rappel topo in the Super Topo guide. There is an older version in the Donny Reid Giude, before all the intermediate stations were added. There will be an updated version in the new guide. PLEASE stop dumbing down the climbs to the climbers level. Climbers need to step up to the level of the climb! It is horrible that people have died on this, truly horrible. But to contiuosly trying to improve this is not the solution. THERE IS A WALK OFF. People used this for decades with out too many problems, and yes people died on that too. People die on the Half Dome cables. People die on the mist trail. It sucks. But glueing reflectors on an outdoor climb, seriously, what the hell are you thinking? What part of ethics does this fall into? That is not a wilderness experience. That is a gym experiance. If you can't get off this climb safely then you need to up your skills. You will never stop people from rappelling off the end of there rope. I've come close and most people I now have had a close call or story to tell, too. Be safe, come prepared, check your partner, do your home work. There is plenty of info all over the Internet for this route. I would hate to loose some one I know or care about climbing. But this is not the solution. Because you are truly just inviting more inexperienced climbers up there. This is a climb where a lot of people get there experiance. They learn to get up earlier, bring a head lamp, stay on route, check on how to get off, and come prepared. If nothing else, don't be so lazy and just do the walk off. It's like a freeway these days and not the epic that it used to be.
I know every body won't agree with my opinion, but there it is.
 Eric Gabel
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Climber Joe
Trad climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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I've rapped down RA nearly a dozen times, sometimes at night. The scariest thing about it is, that on some rap stations you got at most two very old bolts. I'd love to see some upgrades to 3/8 inchers! The other big danger is losing rope to trees, but what can you do? it's a risky activity.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
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Reflectors sound like a good idea if you were really in a bind but here are a couple thoughts.
1. They are bound to get broken by people standing on them, clipping junk to them, leaning on them, etc.... Unless they are more of a flat/tape style rather than plastic. If over a several years, everybody (newbies) knew the raps were reflectored, it could lead to trouble for anybody if the reflectors weren't visible due to breakage or other reason. Basically it does somewhat enable the possibility of more problems with people who are relying on the reflectors.
2. Standardizing the lengths of the stations is a far better idea in my opinion. Making them all the same basic length would be ideal. basically having some of them set for 50 m ropes means many opportunities to guess where you are if you try using 60s. Guessing is what leads to problems. It definitely happened to us and we ended up coming down in the dark after trying to make sense of all the intermediate raps.
3. I am not one for adding signs all over the place but a single sign at the base of the first pitch stating that "ALL RAP STATIONS REQUIRE __M ROPES." I know this goes against the general adventure of climbing, but in such a highly trafficked area with climbers from all over the world.....many of them new......there is a bit of a public service responsibility that goes with the terrain also.
Cody's death appears to have been tragically just pilot error....... But I am all for improving the existing descent route as it has proven dangerous and somewhat confusing for many of us in the past, even those who have years of experience under our belts.
A big thanks to all those who are putting effort into this.
Scott
P.S. To all those who will poo poo and bah humbug the idea with the "what are we gonna do next, put a railing along the top!" comments I just want to point out that this isn't the backcountry, this isn't the DNB, its the most traveled long beginner route in the worlds most traveled national park and it starts out in a hotel parking lot. And climbers continue to die and get hurt on it. We can do better I think.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
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I guess we could just chop the thing.
In my mind the rap route exists therefore it might as well be done to the best possible standard.
I'm just musing the reflector idea and am really glad for the naysaying imput. I mean that. I cannot figure out a way to make the reflectors durable enough to be reliable when folks start relying on them. perhaps highway stuff but thats pretty permanent and large. It is the best argument against them.
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Eggstele
Trad climber
Kings Beach, Lake Tahoe
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
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Just a reminder...Climbing and rappelling IS dangerous! Good luck with figuring out how to keep it safe...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
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But glueing reflectors on an outdoor climb, seriously, what the hell are you thinking?
Hahaha LOL
That sounds so funny.
Maybe flashing battery operated photo cell turn on at night red led lights too?
There's people thrashing around in the dark on the last pitch of Selaginella Wall all the time too.
I see them on weekends at 10:30 at night headlamps looking everywhere while lost up there.
They need traffic signs there too.
Ho mannn ....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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Ok no reflectors! lol.. but removing offroute slings and anchors , replacing old bolts, and moving stations to better places does seem pretty reasonable. Basically optimizing existing standards.
How bout rappel direction indicators? Not unheard of in some places.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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The first guy could also tie stopper Knots in the rap line... There is basically anchors all over the place on that rappel route. If one swings around even a little bit one will be crossed. There is little reflective tacks in some of the trees on the North Dome Gully. To find them take your head lamp off your head and shine it from the waist scanning side to side. They will appear. Just as a side note...If you do the rappels you haven't really climbed Royal Arches. There is still a full pitch and some scrambling after where they start.
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
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Why not just schedule regular helo service during the busy months, a la the tram service on Hwy 120 in the Meadows? They could stop at the top of RA, bring down partiers on top of Half Dome, and pick up the stragglers atop the 5 Open Books as Werner suggested.
Can't our Federal Gummint do anything useful?
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fat-n-sassy
Social climber
San Francity, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
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I agree with adding an anchor below the tree labeled 15. That area is very easy to get confused/lost in. As of now there is nothing to do if you rap straight down from there other than clip one super old nut and hope for the best (the bolted anchor is out of reach by ~15 feet with 2 60m ropes). The smart thing to do is rap to climbers right down the ramp, but that is definitely not clear when you're up there and would be a major project once you rap straight down.
I've rapped the route 4 times and walked off from Washington Column a couple of times; both are sketch, but this is the one major issue I've had with the raps.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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With all due respect to supertopo and traditional ways: The reality is there is a rap route in a guide book used by hundreds of climbers every year at all times of the year. Many were dissapointed when it was installed but it's there. And this is not about the particulars of the recent accident but that accident was a reminder to me that there is/are serious flaws within the directions given for rappelling which are misleading and are not the rappellers fault. I'm won't place blame but would like to fix, if possible the flaws in such a way that they are obviuos while the rappell route is in use. Station 16 is bad and has caused serious accidents and has put experienced climbers in trouble. This problem has been brought up before. Another reality is climbers coming down at night. Who among the vets of the valley have not partaken or at least heard of the perverse traditional pastime of gabbing a beer at twighlight and watching rappers at RA stumble around in the dark. It's as old as the rap route. Unless one supports the removal of the rap route ( an obviuosly dangerous and unreal propsition), the bolts are here to stay and people will continue down in the dark. Are reflectors anymore of an additional blight then the bolts themselves? There are reflectors at the base of Middle Cathedral Apron in the trees denoting the trail down.
Edit: Qitnl gets it. How to show rappers the way down an improved rappell route is the key. Reflectors seem to be the easiest for night. But what I am willing to do on short notice is fix the situation at the tree/ramp area down to 16. I like Clint's proposal of setting a rap at or near the trees because they'd be obvious and near where the guide says to rap. And then add bolts mid-way between 15 and 16 so anyone going down would see them. Anyway, I've put some thought into it. Not just off the cuff.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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It's incredibly tragic that the young man died. There has been no definitive statement of what caused his particular accident, and even if there had been, I have no judgment or comment on this incident.
But I find the talk of adding reflectors to a rock climb disturbing.
There are basic tenets of safe climbing that need to be understood and followed when people climb, in order to control what can be controlled. I don't agree with the statement that this is a "beginner" route, so it needs to be made safer. Efforts to clean up the rap descent are laudable and understandable. But Just because RA is technically easy, doesn't mean it's not serious. People need to take it seriously and have a plan to complete it safely, according to their abilities. That will mean different things for different experience levels.
this route is long, so the time factor for ascent and descent makes it a serious undertaking. It's a basic tenet of climbing to be prepared to deal with eventualities. I find the talk of tons of "beginners" rappelling by headlamp amazing. In 30+ years of climbing I have never rapped by headlamp. Frankly it would scare the S&*t out of me to do it. "Be prepared to bivy" was one of the first climbing phrases I learned.
Will making the rap "safer" by adding reflectors only encourage more people to think that it's routinely Ok to rap in the dark?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:51pm PT
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Phlyp. Agree with you one hundred percent.... But a bad topo is a bad topo and a rap to nowhere is a bummer and is serious for all climbers.
And Stizzo you have a point. So what is the solution to offsetting bad information? How do you get them to follow Clint's topo? I don't know why I'm posting so much. There have been real tragedies at 16. Not bullshit drama.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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Reality is most follow topos.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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The problem is expectation: The expectation that the reflectors will be there, and the issues that will arise when the reflectors are gone or don't function for some reason and people can't find the reflectors they were expecting.
lol.. substitute rappel station for reflectors in the above quote and you'll get to the meat of the problem
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Are reflectors anymore of an additional blight then the bolts themselves.
yes
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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No way ...
Us stupid Americans must use good brain.
Powder coat the rappel bolt hangers with reflective paint by Halo Coatings.
Halo’s innovative liquid and powder coating solutions lead the retro-reflective industry.
http://www.halocoatings.com/
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:09pm PT
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LuckyPink right. But how to let them know? Bye the bye... Rumour has it that HH got stuck at 16? Anyway, here I am getting caught up.....I've been stuck at 16, Roger's been stuck at 16, a lady rapped off at 16, Gri-Gri spent the night at 16 and hundreds are being told to rap at 16 by a guidebook......so I'm down to fix 16. You folks figure out the rest.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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actually the other poster overinterpreted my observation as a support of his argument.
I'm with ya , wstmrnclmr. You are obviously correct in assessing the need and the method for that fix .. it's a particularly difficult spot to place or see the bolts.. ST forum is known for all this ballyhoo about almost everything. Opinion is everywhere but common sense is hard to find. As for reflectors.. nobody likes those euro reflectors until they use them.. then it's "oooooo nice reflectors " I sent you a pm
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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ain't gonna happen reflectors will be chopped
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:45pm PT
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Maybe RA should be re-named.
One of the 50 Classic Rappels.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:47pm PT
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Against the idea of reflectors. They will end up visible when a flashlight is shined from below by tourists, who will then complain and cause bad attention.
I did this as my third traditional climb, got off route, had to search for a while for a few anchors stations on the rappel, took 15 hours, finished by headlamp. It was a great learning experience. A 15 pitch climb shouldn't be dumbed down, it should remain a challenging route finding and rappelling adventure to help prepare climbers.
People should be able to either find the info on the net for this climb or follow the party ahead of them down. I've helped a few people down the raps.
I'm not sure why the topo here shows 21 raps and a 5.2 down climb. The supertopo posted by Clint on the beta page is more accurate IMO.
11 raps with 2 60m ropes or 15 raps with a single 60m. I think the single is probably just as fast because of less rope management time and less chance of getting it stuck.
The 5.2 down climb is 3rd class if I'm looking at the topos right. I think there were slings around the tree if you wanted to rappel/walk down.
The anchors aren't in consistent places because some are for 2 rope raps and some for single rope raps.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
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back in the day you learned from a mentor, seconding climbs and putting your time in scoping out the area. You learned from those more experienced than yourself, and you came to know the realm of you climbing.
someone was there to correct you if you went the wrong way, you followed and learned.
eventually you were out climbing taking along the next generation, you were the mentor, you taught what you knew to those you climbed with...
a guide book, no matter how detailed and explicit, is a very poor substitute for that sort of instruction. Putting "trail markers" invites climbers to stop thinking and "just follow the reflectors," which might work fine if it weren't for the fact that we can't control what happens to a rap route exposed to the elements, to natural rock fall and all the things that happen out there.
the addition of reflectors won't change things if you are trying to make the rap route safe for someone who has no experience at all with it... fixing the rap stations will work as long as it takes someone to be confused, put a sling around the wrong tree and rap into a situation that completely takes them by surprise. unless that sling is removed, it is a sign for all the climbers who come later.
preparation is a big part of performance, and when your life depends on your performance it becomes all the more vital to prepare. giving the Royal Arches rap route the reputation as something you don't have to prepare for will lead to some very bad situations.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jan 30, 2015 - 06:13am PT
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I'm with you Cragman, if you can walk off do it.
This whole discussion of reflectors on rap anchors simply reminds me of how far we've come from where we started. I suppose some folks just didn't get the memo, teach your children well.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jan 30, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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Learn to climb faster and walk off
It's the best part
Rappelling is dangerous!
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herm
Trad climber
Bishop
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:12am PT
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Walk off.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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Does anyone know exactly where on the route this happened and exactly what happened? Untill we know the details maybe we should just do as Tony suggests and add a station between 15 and that offroute station below. Upgrading that station and those unknown stations below that for a direct line to station 19 as shown on Clint's topo. would seem like a good start. From 19 it just a few steps down the ramp to the tree anchor at 20. Just this little modification involves adding 2 bolts and upgrading 6 more. That means 8 bolts with double ring hangers. This is pretty much a one man job unless you take more than 1 rope to work off of. Tony is one of the best bolt replacers and it would still be a long day for him. It is not about hand drilling verses power drilling. Tony probably hand drills a hole in about 15 minutes. Getting in position and getting the old stuff out is what takes the time. One thing for sure, the job will get done. It is on the list now for the 2015 season, if it can be done. There just may be a reason why it was not done this way the first time.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:21am PT
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Did this route as my first long one in the valley, as total multi-pitch noobs. Rapped the rap route, one short rap/pull where the topo warned of possible hangup. And we rapped most of it in the dark. No issues finding stations (yeah, we had to scan the wall for 10-15seconds once), no problems at all really. I've only done the gully when being up there without a rope, NDG sucks and people take the chop there too. I've simul rapped the rap route much quicker than walking off.
It was a perfect formative adventure climbing experience for me and my partner. Just enough to make us learn without being dangerous (with the cavet that ALL climbing and rapping is dangerous to some extent).
So I'd be firmly in the camp of leaving it alone. Knot your ends, and know how to ascend a rope (and have the means to ascend on you at all times during the raps..prussik, slings, shoelaces..whatever). Simples.
That said, reflective paint and reflective adhesive backed sheets are extemely durable. We mark f'in highways with them for pete's sake. However, some reflective materials are made with tiny glass balls in the material...which potentially present problems if using paint on something like a Metolius rap hanger where the rope runs over the paint.
Is rope damage from those glass balls a real issue? I DON'T KNOW!! But I'd sure as hell want to find out before painting a bunch of rap stations.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:23am PT
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Just want to reference once again what was proposed...
in case it's later deleted.
Hilarious!!!!!11
LOL here, WB!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:33am PT
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I'd say put the ammo box at the top next to the first rap anchor so you can't miss it. Either advise people to walk down the gully, or tell them how to not get lost on the rap route.
On the rap route, if there is a particular place people have to be told where to go, you could put something like a 2 inch diameter washer / aluminum disk behind the bolt hanger, with instructions stamped on it.
Why is north dome gully so dangerous? If it's a particular section of it, can you set up a rap anchor there, so people will rap it rather than downclimb?
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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Start the climb early, research the North Dome Gully descent and use that. I don't see the wisdom in planning to do 21 raps, likely in the dark.
I did the route back in the Rotten Log era.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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For practical serious advice read John Dill, YOSAR, staying alive
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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N00b team one:
They climb the route and get their rope stuck on the first rappel.
Their rap line is tangled in the anchor but they have their rack and lead line.
They yell for help. It's summer and very warm.
YOSAR boss says you're in for a bivy tonight and we'll get you in the morning.
They cry like little girls ...? Just kidding. :-)
Run up the route casually in 45 minutes and to get to the n00bs sitting there.
I then run back up to their anchor (5.2 rating) from their position, untangle their rope and we rappel to the ground.
I asked why they couldn't climb back up and untangle their rope themselves.
They said "We don't have a topo"
LOL hahaha
N00b team two: Went east at the NDG and ended up rappling into Tenaya canyon until they got lost on their descent and ledged out.
They were rescued also.
N00b team three: One member had no approach shoes, tight climbing shoes and they decided to descent down Yosemite Falls trail.
The guy who was hiking in his tight climbing shoes gave up because of pain and sat up at the rim and yelled for help.
He was heard at the SAR cache and could be seen from there.
Sar had to go hike up there and give him some shoes to get down after this guy spent two days up there.
Three different descents from three different parties ...... :-)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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"We don't have a topo"
The source of all troubles: Topos.
But topos are not going away and legions of gym climbers, inspired by Dawn Wall vids will be unleashed on the Valley this season. Good luck SAR.
Perhaps reflectors AND paint yellow lines on the rock so you can follow them up and down.
Fixed rebar and cables and turn the Royal Arches route into a sweet via ferrata to accommodate the hordes. The Yosemite Rock Climbing Experience sponsored by Black Diamond, Adidas Outdoor and Red Bull. Join the conga line.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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^^^^+100 on the suggestion to chop the rap route^^^^
it is ultimately just a convenience after all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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+100 on the suggestion to chop the rap route
Do that and many would just downclimb the route, I would.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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suggestion to chop the rap route
It doesn't solve problems.
It changes the problem and a new set of problems will arise.
Problems, rescues, life and death will always remain .....
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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I love the idea of standardizing the rap. Either for one 60m or 2 60m's.
Regardless, I personally will continue to use the walk-off. What's the hurry to get down, anyway?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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WB, any chance you remember who posted that signage down the false gully before Washington column. There's a pic of it somewhere, once upon a time I was looking for it and couldn't find it. Or where its posted?
btw, what's the name of that false gully? (I suppose I could look.)
If there's an issue with the NDG option, it's probably at this false gully that cliffs out. Esp after nightfall. (I would think some kind of sign around that location where the trails get crazy could help. Maybe.)
Would love to see a pic again of that signage though.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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My vote is for rap route ushers. Kinda like vallet's. Hired and payed for by the climbing team themselves. Stationed at the top of chosen route ready for service.
Create jobs and save lives in one shot.
BS, aside, it's really horrible that climbers die because of accidents like this. This young man sounds to have been an amazing person. His passing just plain sucks. The solution however is not reflectors or markers of any kind.
On this particular climb, it's my opinion, that the rap route itself is the problem. As said up thread, when there is a walk off, best to use it. For decades there were no rap anchors in place. Probably should've stayed that way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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So KP, would you be angry if you encountered a couple climbers then downclimbing the route? Just curious.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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There are three different ones.
One facing glacier Point, one before even getting into the NDG and one facing half dome down Tenaya Canyon.
All "Bonzi descents"
The second one I described was my descent I always used which was really fast but required good down climbing skills ......
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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I suspect that the number of climbers who would actually down climb the route after topping out would be very few to none at all.
But as to your question, it really wouldn't be much more of an inconvenience than a team rappelling past. So, angry? No. I might suggest to them that the ND gully would've been a better option.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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I haven't posted much in quite awhile but felt compelled...damn jebus that werner/hotdogs/brando sh#t fukin killed me. Thanks.
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sneville
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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I agree with Gabel. This is ridiculous. It ruins the experience. If a party cannot get up the route and descend properly then you should not be up there. We all have had an epic and learn from the experience. Why did the original poster not have a head lamp, really? Go up the day before and scope the North Dome gully descent. What ever happened to being prepared, bring bail gear just in case.
What is next after reflectors? What is in place to stop other people from putting reflectors on other routes. This is the outdoors not the gym. Just my 2 cents.
Sean
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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Yes ... Kos
Someone hung a yellow one of those flashers once on a cliff in the valley.
They had to send us up to take it down ......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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I suspect that the number of climbers who would actually down climb the route after topping out would be very few to none at all.
Doesn't Valley lore say the speed record on the route was accomplished by a young stud running down the route back to the floor, round-tripping in less than an hour?
I'm late to the thread & haven't read much past the first page, but I have to say NO REFLECTORS!
What, are you crazy? This is Yosemite Valley bro.
Ideally, the rap anchors would appear perfectly, each after a 29 meter rap straight down. Lacking that, we can save the current rap route with some cleverness:
Where the following station is not easily findable in the dark, hook a small SS plaque to the rap anchor that describes how to find the next station. If downclimbing is necessary, describe how far and what to expect at the next rap. If there's a bunch of straight-foward raps that don't need plaques, then describe that on the leading plaque, for example:
Rap 30m, downclimb 45m in the corner to a tree anchor, then rap 6 straight pitches.
Establish a valet rap service that you purchase through the Ahwahnee parking valet (good idea Ken!).
The Royal Arches is a special route, with special lore and appeal. Because of the grade an history, you get many folks who are at their limit on the route. While I've never considered taking the rap route, I think the idea of hanging plaques on this one route might be acceptable. Certainly, many people would really appreciate the route-finding help. Almost daily.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Flashing reflectors, lol!
Flaishing reflectors hanging on cliffs in the Valley, lol!
LOL!! (Sorry, wb)
.....
KP, thanks for the reply.
I would envisage down climbers though, of varying skill range.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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^^^^+100 on the suggestion to chop the rap route^^^^
it is ultimately just a convenience after all.
Playing the devil's advocate: What isn't a "convenience" in climbing? I hope you plan to chop every fixed pin, every bolted anchor station, every rap station in the valley too...otherwise you are a giant hypocrite..convenience for me, but not for thee. After all, you did just run laps on Generator off a bolted TR anchor, and IIRC the station on Stone Groove is fixed too, and that's not convenience?
And again, people do take the chop in the NDG. Stats are probably the same for NDG deaths and RA-Raps deaths (Werner?)
Personally, don't much care. I can't see myself climbing that route on a rope again, or probably at all for that matter. It's just not that good, and if I wanted to go hiking (which is about what "climbing" the RA amounts to), there are plenty of hikes and scrambles that are less crowded, with better ambiance.
What, are you crazy? This is Yosemite Valley bro.
Right. Reflectors would be insane...nothing at all like a guy with a telescope counting the pimples on your ass during your morning dump, or touron laden green dragons broadcasting over a loudspeaker "if you look to your left, you'll see K-Man engaged in technical rock scaling", "controlled" burns that set the god@##%n world on fire and quickly get "uncontrolled", Mayberry Syndrome flathats scared of their own f*#king shadows pointing AR-15s at random civilians (me!) with no muzzle control, Art museums, ice rinks, delis.
I mean c'mon! This is Yosemite Valley, bro. Land of pristine wilderness experiences. LMFAO. (Again, for the record, I am firmly against reflectors...but not enough to do anything more than spray about it on the interwebz. Sure ain't going up there to remove it if someone did do it.)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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THERE MAY BE PERIODS OF INTENSE WHINING, REMINISCING, AND RECOLLECTIONS OF HOMO HUDDLING
No doubt, anyone trying to spoon me better have a damn serious emergency.
-1 for reflectors
+1 for chop route and make a new one going straight down, every 29 meters.
+1 also for putting instruction plaques at certain points on the route, but they can be unobtrusive and just part of the existing anchors.
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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In all seriousness, a left-field suggestion, but why not a sign at the beginning that reads something like: If you are inexperienced (so everyone) and don't have a headlamp, trail shoes, and ascenders you will be fined regardless of time of day, speed of climbing, etc.
Also go run or bike trails in Moab, the slickrock has markers like paved roads so the 4-wheelers don't get lost, it's not that far from a reality in the valley, all things considered
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:27am PT
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Chop the rap route and it will reappear with a new set of holes. This is a WELL established rap route. Might as well chop the East Ledges rap route too, you can walk off the Falls trail...
If the NDG was at the top of RA I'd use it everytime. But if it's the choice of hiking a mile east, doing the NDG, and then returning a mile west, vs. a rap route that is right at the finish and start of the climb I'll take the raps. Many free soloists even carry a light line for rappeling.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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now off to get my T checked!
It's low
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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That last pitch can be a bit spooky for some of us. I was telling someone this once and he said that there are 3 ways to cross that slab. One high, the one in the book, and one low. He said the lower one is bolted and is the original way. He also said that the center way is only 5.6, it's faster, thats the way everyone goes, and that's why it's in the guide.
Anyone know if this is true?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:34am PT
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I've come across people on the hike down from Half Dome at night with no headlamps/lights. Perhaps we should install lights on the side of the trail like those along the aisles in movie theaters?
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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The most interesting part of this stupid thread is the many ways thought up to torture Werner. Here is mine:
Require all Royal Arches aspirants to wear bright flashing reflectors and require Werner to monitor all progress through a telescope. He will then spring into action if any problems are noted.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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I hope you plan to chop every fixed pin, every bolted anchor station, every rap station in the valley too...
you haven't seen my "chop list," if you want to contribute a route, just tell me, I'll put it on the list...
(just to play the "devil's advocate")
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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I think that if there is any value in the thoughts of going reflective, the sure way to do it is by painting the Rap Hangers with reflective paint. You would just need a big dab. Werner has the link. Just the Rap Hangers for the route. This could become something for other long routes that are newbie destinations in the valley. Now, have any of you read the up coming New Park Widerness laws regarding climbing in National Parks?...maybe this is only Seki, but we could just be peeing into the wind with the thought of any anchors at all! It goes into effect this year.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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if you want to contribute a route, just tell me, I'll put it on the list
Go whack those Skinner bolts on Jesus Built My Hotrod. Klaus would probably loan you tools and buy you some OE for the trouble.
I like convenience. Except the Circle K (in JT and in Riverside), nothing convenient about 9-deep lineups and one cashier, meth heads begging change and hiding in the bushes, while teenage gangbangers get amped on their 84oz buckets of soda. God bless America!
EDIT:
free OE would be a disincentive Good point. '83 Bordeaux?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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free OE would be a disincentive...
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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I learned to climb in the 80s and we always walked off if it was an option.
I have followed that logic whenever possible and I have found the RA descent down the gulley to be fine.
But with the sport climbing revolution, now must everything be rapped?
Maybe a streak of day glow reflective paint that follows the rap line all the way down Or maybe a long line from the top that you just clip into and then it lowers you all the way down automatically, with Werner pulling the levers from the Awahnee patio?
Or, as the old saying goes, "you've got two legs!"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:48am PT
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didn't the Gunsight have a set of fluorescent dots painted on it at one point to indicate the way?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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I'm just going to hang some of those solar rechargeable lights from my garden/walkway up there. Just need to replace the rechargeable AA battery once a year or so, and you'll never miss a station and be able to see how to thread the anchor correctly.
Why did it take me so long to think of that one. I've even got some that have a tiffany-esque globe on them...for the high class climbers. The heads come off the stakes easily, fairly waterproof too. Viola!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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It was just posted on the other thread that the accident happened 1 rap down and was probably a mistake on Cody's part.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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Eggs-C-Lent Bomz.
+1 For spare shoes at the top. Boxes of 'em.
+1 Boxes of topos at every rap station, and along the route wherever the direction changes.
+1 Remote controls (rented at the valet) that have a button to light up the flashers on the anchors of the rap route.
One just never knows what one is going to need. One.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:12am PT
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We should probably just let the valley locals handle this.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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What do you think this is, a popcorn stand?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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While we're optimizing the route, could I request Sherpas and some O2 bottles? I'm not getting any younger.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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You don't need T to climb Royal Arches. I did it when the rotten log was the scariest pitch and the walk down North Dome Gully was part of the experience, a long day with a total body workout.
Since then I've seen too many expert climbers killed rappelling to think 19-21 rappels for a noob route is a good idea.
Kudos to Roger Brown however, for his promised work on the anchors this coming summer.
P.S. No Homo Huddles back in the day either since that was considered a girl's climb.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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prostitues and cocaine
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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Modern climbing has benefited enormously from engineering solutions---ropes and belay devices are obvious examples. But with those benefits has come the idea that there are or should be engineering solutions to plain old inconvenience, as well as bad judgement, bad luck, fatigue, lack of preparation, and the almost limitless list of other human failings that make climbing risky and uncertain.
From the new perspective, climbing is less about the climber and more about how to engineer the climb to be pleasant and safe. The reflectors are just the latest wrinkle in the ongoing conflict about what climbing is and should be. In this conflict, "safety" is a cudgel used to beat anyone who thinks that risk is an appropriate and perhaps even essential ingredient in (trad) climbing.
Meanwhile, absolutely nothing will keep the noobs Werner describes from getting into trouble.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
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Ain't no 21 rappels. Unless you are rapping down a 3rd class walk. Which I have seen people doing.
11 double rope rappels or 15-16 (Clint added a needed station under 10) single rope rappels.
I'd agree a few stations could be fixed up / moved. I know the last one under 11 (for a single rope rappel) had old bolts.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 30, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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I really like the slightly risky 2 hour walk down North Dome Gully, vs. more rappel deaths. 21 rappels vs walking for 2 hours down North Dome Gully?
When I did the route last spring there was no way I was walking off. I didn't trust my left foot enough at the time to safely navigate the north gully without killing myself not to mention walking was harder than climbing at the time..
Not saying there needs to be a rap route installed for accessibility reasons on every climb, just that the rap route enabled me to accomplish said goal in my post-injury comeback tour. ;)
If you can't get off this climb safely then you need to up your skills.
I agree with this. I started out as a gym noob with no mentor, but I knew enough from my experiences almost killing myself in the mountains on a snowboard, to not get in over my head too quickly.
Too many people are getting in over their heads before they have the basics dialed.
Because you are truly just inviting more inexperienced climbers up there.
As Eric says. Comfortizing it will make it worse. Optimizing it would make it better. Scratch a little arrow pointing right on the hangers at 15 on clint's topo. Put a new station directly below 15 29m down so if people do mess up, there's an anchor there.
And do something about the crappy tree anchor at 4 on clints topo. When we did it I did not like the looks of it or the tat on it at all, so we built a gear anchor in the crack and my partner led out to the bolts.
Otherwise it went smooth, we did it in 10 raps with two 70's and i found it quite fun, but i've always loved rapping.
The key was we took the first shuttle from camp 4 and made good time. Until we ran into noobs on the traverse at which point the line formed and it dragged on forever.
The last pitch was soaked so we didn't even think about it. I wouldn't dream of trying it for my first time in the dark. At that point I would bivy for sure...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
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I posted this in the Cody Byers thread....
Last night I bumped into Eric Swanson, Cody's partner that tragic day, and got the details....
They were using double ropes and had just made the first rapp. They made a single rope rap to avoid getting their rope stuck in the notorious bushes just a few raps down from the top. I wasn't too clear on what happened next, but Eric said he wasn't paying attention when Cody began to descend again, first. He said that one end of the rope slipped through Cody's ATC and the rope went whizzing through the anchor and Cody fell with both ropes. So, I am speculating that Cody may have had the other rope coiled on him, leaving both ropes still tied together, but perhaps he grabbed onto the wrong tail.
Eric was stuck at the belay for about an hour and a half until a following party came down and he rapped with them.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 30, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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Soooooooo.
(said in a German accent.)
I see.
All the folks that rappel, have likely not climbed pitch 16, since the rappel anchors start at the top of pitch 15.
Back in the Pleistocene, when I climbed Royal Arches twice in May, pitch 16 was wet, sandy, covered in part with pine needles, and had virtually no protection. I have seen references to people dying on it.
When I looked for beta on it today, I see a single bolt has been added, and unchanged conditions.
You dooodes are missing the most exciting lead on the whole frickin climb. I remember being terrified, both leading and following pitch 16, because either way, if you slip, you are likely going to take a huge fall over a drop-off.
Maybe, just maybe, a little more fixed protection could be added to pitch 16, vs more rappel anchors, signs (multi-lingual & in Braille, I should hope) lights, arrows, and guides?
Then maybe, just maybe, folks could walk off and not die rappeling?
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Sheets
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 01:36pm PT
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You dooodes are missing the most exciting lead on the whole frickin climb. I remember being terrified, both leading and following pitch 16, because either way, if you slip, you are likely going to take a huge fall over a drop-off.
I fell while leading this traversing pitch. At the time it was raining & the combination of moss & pine needles & wetness made the traverse quite spicy.
The fall wasn't bad. I cheese grated down the slab before stopping at a little pine needle covered ledge just before where the angle steepens a lot. If I remember correctly, I believe I placed a cam somewhere after the bolt that also stopped me from chucking off the steep section. Anyway, it wasn't too bad.
As to the larger point, Eric Gabel said it all.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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I don't remember a drop off under that final pitch slab, except maybe way down where I don't think I would've ended up. I didn't enjoy that slab at all. An easy, dirty, traverse.
One of the parties I helped rap down the arches was led by one of those "the more complexity I add to everything the safer it is" types.
There were in front of us at the raps and I could tell by the clustf*#kedess that it would take them forever to rap, plus they were uncertain where to go so we offered to rap with them.
He refused to rap on an EDK so we did a bulky knot.
He setup a prusik above his belay device because "if the belay loop blows a friction knot below the device won't help". So in order to descend he had to move the prusik up and down by his belly button. With the weight of the rope and such a dumb backup he was struggling and sweating. Or as my friend referred to it "the jerk off method of rappelling"
At one point he was telling us where the rap route goes because the topo said it, and I said no I've done this rap plenty of times it's the other way. Of course I was right. My friend couldn't take it anymore at this point as the guy was driving him crazy. We got to a 3rd class walk down and he wanted to rap and at that point we went over the topo with him gave him some pointers and left him to his own devices.
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Climber Joe
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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Ooh I still remember the traverse vividly. Always wondered how bad it would be to slip there. Thanks for describing it.
On another note: Thanks Clint for that extra bolt near the end of the rap route. Especially when you're tired at the end of the day it helps a lot and also lets you avoid getting the rope (too) wet.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Jan 30, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
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Pitch 16: While it looks like the obvious way to go, the long, low unprotected traverse to the forest is off route and may be as hard as 5.9 when wet. The real route stays very high, taking you thru some class 3 blocks followed by a short, well protected 5.4 traverse across the slippery water course and to the forest.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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And here's a rare photo of Cragman on the right in a walk off!
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vector
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
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NooB experience #4 (or 4,000, or whatever)
Two climbers do Royal Arches. "4-eyes", wearing rx sunglasses, leaves the fanny pack including prescription glasses on top of the pitch just before the pine needle traverse, realizes this, wants a belay to go back; partner says, "No time, I got to be at work in the morning." 4-eyes says, "I'll bivvy at the top of North Dome Gully, can't see to descend," spends the night, walks down easily, though thirsty, at sunrise and makes it to work by noon. Partner apparently gets very lost on the descent, wanders into Upper (or Lower) Pines campground where he is found confused and disoriented at 4 AM, and is taken to the clinic, rehydrated, but doesn't make it to work at all. Kindly Camp 4 denizen retrieves fanny pack, eyeglasses and all, for $10 and a bag of chocolate chip cookies.
No reflectors! This kind of experience is an important part of climbing. It's not supposed to be a playpen.
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Woody the Beaver
Trad climber
Soldier, Idaho
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Jan 30, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
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A 15-20 rap descent down a Valley wall vs. a hike down? Good heavens. I did the route just once in '75 or so and we hiked down the ND gully, laughing and bitching all the way. It wasn't that bad. Doing that many raps on an occasionally crowded rap route sounds like inviting a lot of risk along.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
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Terrible news about this young person's death. RIP.
+1 ablegabel point of view.
Here's a look back at that last slab pitch from the forest.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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We always hoofed it down the ND gully. If the mungey traverse is too sketchy it is easy to throw a rope on it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
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camera tilt!!
stinkbuggin'
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 30, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
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camera tilt!!
No kidding. Aligning with trees in the valley, it's more like
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sDawg
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
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Ethics aside, do you want to be responsible for the climber who sees the reflectors, has an easy time rappeling, and starts up a harder, less well-traveled and/or more remote climb just as poorly prepared as they did on RA because it didn't cause them any trouble the first time? Or even expects the reflectors to be there on another easy valley climb? Anyone getting stuck on the rappel likely doesn't have the benefit of a mentor to explain that this is a special case and not to be expected elsewhere.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jan 30, 2015 - 05:21pm PT
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The one thing that I keep coming back to is to have knots in the end of your ropes. This alone would prevent most rappelling errors from turning fatal. This was something I learned as a beginner--along with testing the pull before the second came down. We also learned how to prussic back up lines if necessary. I am somewhat surprised by this failure to use such a basic safety technique.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
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reflectors reflectors reflectors!!!! Wooot we gots reflectors.. look at the shiny object people!
Lol Folks sure got sidetracked by a well meant idea. I'm not much persuaded by the "We don't do things that way" type of argument. Consensus does matter a fair bit and in this case it's pretty clear what that is. Most important are some good points regarding the fact that they are not very reliable. Thus they add as much of a potential problem as they do a solution.
Idea down the tube. If you got a chuckle out of it or were shocked by the apparent stupidity of the idea I'm happy to have entertained.
Remind me not to mention some of my really out there ideas. Sometimes I like ideas just for the exercise of running them fully into the ground.
While in my mind the idea of rapping off royal arches is not the safest or for that matter most enjoyable, easiest or fastest way back down the fact remains that it is done ALOT!
Solid experienced climbers have found the current situation unnecessarily difficult.
Some good improvements to the route have been seriously proposed.
Cleanup, replacement, arrows and a new line at 15 seem well within normal standards and are improvements that will save time and trouble and possibly tragedy in the future. I do know as several have mentioned nothing but luck can save someone running on idiot mode.
I've made a commitment to Roger to help out in a few months on some of this stuff.
I too actually am concerned that if this is done well enough the word could get around that rapping is no big deal on arches. Hope not and I am still convinced that improving a few basic issues is well worth my time.
Seems like there is mostly consensus on that.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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it takes less time to walk down the NDG than to come down the rap route... especially on a day that the rap route is crowded...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:06pm PT
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^ no doubt.. yet people can be watched every night heading down it.
As you mention there are days the raps are crowded.
Changing this does not seem likely,
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
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Royal Arches accidents that made ANAM from 2014 back to 1987 (with the exception of 1993 and 1996):
1991 - fatal fall descending the NDG
1994 - rescue on rap route, pulled rope before untying the stopper knot
1999 - rescue, benighted, in the rain
1999 - rescue, climber stuck at the end of the his rope on the rap route
1999 - rescue, got lost on the rap route in the dark
2001 - injury fall scrambling to the rim in the dark
2005 - injury fall on route, benighted
2006 - rescue, benighted
2008 - rescue, lost descending the NDG
2008 - injury fall on the rap route
2012 - rescue, stuck on the rap route over night
2013 - injury fall on the rap route
2014 - rescue on rap route, pulled rope before untying the stopper knot
2014 - rescue, lost descending the NDG
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:29pm PT
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If there is one thing we can learn from Ed's list, it's that the RA descent is a lot more dangerous than the route itself.
NDG: 4 incidents
Rappel route: 7 incidents
On the route itself: 3 incidents, all benighted
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jan 30, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:00am PT
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maybe it is the weed but god damn fet that sh#t was funny.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 31, 2015 - 12:20am PT
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Where is the 5.8 on Royal Arches? I don't remember any 5.8. Is that what replaced the rotten log?
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:16am PT
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The whole rappelling notion is slowing all these parties down
And creating a rescue bonanza
An extra rope, the idea that " well just rap " is so lamely romantic that
People are moving like snails up the climb itself setting multidirectional
Anchors doing everything by the book being super safe on the climb
Etc
More importantly getting off the climb and going for a quick walk over to NDG
Is a great chance to get out in the "wildness",continue to make proper
Routefinding decisions and move through terrain in a timely manner
All these things help you grow as a climber .
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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Ed,
Judging by your post apparently stopper knots are still used...maybe they are not such a good idea. At least they didn't die! The bottom line is you get a bunch of novices on a long climb with a long decent via rapping or the NDG and accidents happen.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:49am PT
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Instead of chopping rappel routes and other extreme stupid topo over dramatizing knee jerk reactions.
Either learn to climb or stay away from climbs that you can't understand ....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:03am PT
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NDG is a spectacular hike. So many great views, a bit of routefinding and a bit of spice 4th class. Scoping out HD and Washington Column is nice. Except for one time when it was over 90deg and I got whiny and dehydrated I have always really enjoyed the hike, hell I even enjoyed some of the hike that time. But I like hiking.
I don't quite get why so many people will do just about anything not to hike in such a beautiful place.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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North Dome gully? Ha! There are lots of folks who insist on rappelling rather than walking a few hundred yards along the top of the Trapps. Oh, and this just in---some people are recommending using the RA raps as the descent of choice from Washington Column. See http://www.mountainproject.com/v/rapping-royal-arches-after-washington-column/109999200. Extra down-traffic, now with haulbags...
It's part of the evolution of rock climbing, in which the physical activity is increasingly separated from its natural roots. The sense in which nature dictates where a route goes and how it is climbed has been narrowing for years, a trend celebrated by some and decried by others, but a trend nonetheless which shows little sign of abating.
With that idea, essentially that nature is the world's greatest route-setter, inevitably will come people who are not going to be interested in aspects of rock climbing that stray very far from the physical activity of moving from hold to hold. And as this group grows in its ability to influence, the pressure for what might once have been viewed as artificial conveniences will grow as well.
Combine with this the asymmetry of the relative ease of modifying routes compared with the difficulty of "unmodifying" them and we have a situation in which inertia strongly favors the modifiers.
Once modified, the discussion is, except for some minority voices, no longer about whether the modifications ought to have happened at all, but rather how to improve and extend the work already done. Adding reflectors to the rap bolts on RA is a typical example.
Of course, as WML has established, all this is just a hallucination brought on by low T. In any case, there is very little to be done about it, and perhaps, given what seems to be the inevitable explosion of popularity of rock climbing as a purely physical activity, it may be a good thing, because there are still plenty of locales that require some effort to reach and have yet to be equipped with bolts at every belay, so there will probably be a segregation of climbing groups, with popular accessible areas like Yosemite sacrificed, like the Aiguille du Midi, to the crowds.
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David D.
Trad climber
California
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Jan 31, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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I think the solution to the problems on the RA raps is simple. Install a zipline anchored to the top of pitch 16. Run it down to the SAR cache. Climbers can hit a button at the top of the zipline that alerts YOSAR to have some snacks and a beer ready for them when they get down.
Boom, problem solved.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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Chappy,
I was amused to find those rescue reports, obviously they only occur with the last teams rapping as any team rapping in from above would help out the lower team.
But like everything else in climbing, knowing when to use a "stopper" knot on the end of a rap rope, and when not to (judging when the likelihood of getting a rope stuck on the throw in the actual terrain), and when using a stopper knot, having the presence of mind to check the knots are off the rope when you go to pull, all these are part of learning to climb.
The guide book says don't go down the NDG at night if you don't know where you're going... is there anyplace on the cliffs you should go at night when you don't know where you're going? Should the guide book say "use a stopper knot" and "check that the stopper knots are untied before pulling your ropes"?
I am also with rgold on the Trapps walk off, which I remember very fondly from my time climbing in the 'Gunks from 1980 to 1995. I was astonished to learn that it is uncommon since I left.
It would seem a rather academic discussion except for the fact that people get killed now and again for their lack of experience and their presumptions.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Jan 31, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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Would love to do that route sometime. Nineteen thirties established. Sounds like climbers are getting wimpier by the decade.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 31, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
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For crosscountry skiing out to Dewey point the Park places
those tags on trees to guide people.
Maybe the day will come when climbers are considered people and retroreflective tags will be placed leading over to the NDG.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 31, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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Reflective things are strictly verboten in climbing. Please move lots of rocks and only use huge cairns.
I plan to epoxy cairns to the anchor stations in order to make them more visible.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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That's it... I give up. Adventure has officially left the building. Thousands, perhaps TENS of thousands of people have made it up and down the Arches without reflectors and diagrams and safety nets. Plenty of people have been caught by darkness and had to spend a chilly night but it gave them a great story for the bar. If you need a carefully demarcated line to follow then stay in the gym where the tape points the way and any mistake is met with a soft landing on foam.
Eff me!
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Woody the Beaver
Trad climber
Soldier, Idaho
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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All this talk of moderate climbing is getting me aroused. Maybe I should head to the Valley this spring for a return visit, after 40 years, to Royal Arches, just so I could flounder down the NDG again. It would probably take me three days, with nappy-times and bivvies. If needed, rig a 2-on-one haul for the prune bag.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Jan 31, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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In the same way that mandatory bike helmets actually increase injuries, trying to dumb-down the Arches raps will have the result of increasing idiocy>epics>rescues>fatalities. I've done the Arches at least a couple dozen times and never once have I remotely considered the raps to be one of the options for getting down.
I'm not, however, necessarily opposed to sign-posting the descent, to some extent, like many other trails. This would also likely to lead non-climbers into getting in over their heads attempting to use it.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 31, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
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So that sweet climbers trail up to Cathredral Peak is ok
but one over to the NDG would destroy the adventure?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 31, 2015 - 06:53pm PT
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First time I did NDG was in the 70's after climbing the Arches. It was a simple hike, to be honest. Second time I did NDG was '86. Sons of Yesterday was pretty new, very new actually, so Jocelyn and I went to go do it. It was a lazy, we're bored, off-the-cuff, mid-afternoon deli decision. We took our woefully light rack and a single 150' rope that Lechlinski had loaned us. So we do it, it's great, but lo and behold it does not go to the rim. I thought it went to the rim. WTF. It's pretty late afternoon now. We dip over to Awhanee Buttress and start gunning up that. Never done it, no topo or route info but what you gonna do? After a lot of dirty 5.9/5.10 with sh#t for pro we rim out. Now it's pretty late twilight and we set off at a dead run over to the column and NDG. We start down too early and -- god help us -- get into a rappel. Realized what a huge mistake this was after 50' feet or so. Rope back up and climb out. Find NDG, and by now it's just barely light enough to spot features. By the time we hit the talus it was just f*#king pitch black. We brailled our way through the talus and got back to the car sometime way after midnight. We were thrashed and parched, but felt awesome because we knew we'd had ourselves a little self-inflicted, can-you-believe-this-shit mini-epic and it had been the most nerve-wracking fun we'd had in ages. Live and in-person it's a hilarious story. Especially our panic-driven quest to speed-climb Awahnee buttress in the twilight.
Point is: we were improvising under less-than-perfect conditions, and we knew it, and were totally OK with just squatting at any old point, having some uncomfortable pine-sap sex, freezing our asses off, and waiting for the sun to come up. I always felt that Kat Walk off of Middle was way scarier and sketchy.
The very notion of rapping from the f*#king RIM to get off RA, or for that matter any other route that hits the rim, just strikes me as a horribly insane notion. I've done hideous walk-offs to avoid rapping even 100'. If I were God the rap route would be history, and Royal Arches could be a great, low-stress environment for gymbies to learn how to cope with long routes and long descents.
wtf
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
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In the same way that mandatory bike helmets actually increase injuries, trying to dumb-down the Arches raps will have the result of increasing idiocy>epics>rescues>fatalities.
Perhaps it should be noted that helmets generally reduce the severity of brain injuries. But when the biking public is forced to wear helmets, perhaps by some local law, the rate of head injuries has been observed to go up. This doesn't mean bike helmets are not protective; it seems to imply that bike helmets encourage more risk-taking by bicyclists and less care by motorists. Insurance companies are familiar with this phenomenon; it apparently happened when antilock brakes were introduced too, and one can't help but wonder whether cell-phones might similarly have increased some climbers' risk tolerances.
I agree that the same thing happens when routes are equipped with bolted belays and/or rap lines. Even if they actually do make things safer and not just more convenient, they may also encourage more risk-taking by parties that might have thought twice about the route, might have prepared for it more fully, and might have started out earlier. "We can leave later and always rap from anywhere." and "if it is too hard we can just rap off at any point," for example.
I don't think there is any good data, but I wouldn't be real surprised if it turned out such "improvements" really do increase the climbing accident rate. The trouble is that the climbing population has increased so rapidly that it is hard to tell whether a perceived increase in accidents in fact represents an increased rate or not.
These observations are actuarial in nature and are not based on any philosophical attachment to more rather than less route "improvement." The bicycle helmet conundrum ought at least to give pause to those who think they are in some sense performing a community service by doing things like creating bolted rappel routes as an alternative to walk-offs, since it is possible that the perverse proclivities of human nature will turn everything on its head and create new occasions for accidents.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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antilock brakes were complete crap is why accidents went up.
While I am pretty sure creating a rap route will increase the risk of rap accidents.. I'm still of the opinion that making a better rap route than the already existing will reduce the accident rate. The only caveat being that it might be made more popular. That is a real concern.
I'm pretty sure removing the rap route would reduce the rate of rapp accidents. I'm also pretty sure someone would put it back up re increasing the rate of rap accidents.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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Of course creating a rap route will increase the rate of rap accidents; that's not the point. The question is whether creating a rap route will increase or decrease the overall accident rate. I don't think anyone really knows the answer, and tried to make that clear.
I certainly agree it is way too late to try to turn back the clock on RA, and never meant to imply anything else. My point is still that folks who believe they can engineer more "safety" into climbs might consider the potential for unintended side-effects.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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My apologies for the snark
I'm pretty sure that the RA rap route has increased the rate of accidents overall. Probably has increased the amount of traffic for one thing and there is no question it is more dangerous than NDG.
Its a complicated subject for sure.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 31, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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I have a confession I love rapping. So many crusty old dudes hate it but I think it's fun. More time on the wall instead of hiking. I almost always use an autoblock on the leg loop for first one down and a firemans belay for subsequent rappers. My knee is bad so I'd rather hang ten in a harness than pound on my knee down a steep rocky trail. F that.
The first time I went down ndg was after my second or third time up ra, racing the sunset, losing the trail, just having enough light at each section to find which way it went. My partner was ready to bivy but we had no alcohol so f that too. I honestly didn't think it was that bad but I have a good sense for finding trails. For after the column its a fine descent but to go out of the way for two miles just to avoid rapping, no thanks.
The only time I've come close to waiting to rap was my story earlier where we volunteered to rap with the party ahead of us cause the were slow and had never been down it.
It takes me 2 hours to rap it with a single rope. It would take me longer to do the ndg.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jan 31, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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BVB, great story!
having some uncomfortable pine-sap sex
with just a tad TMI!
LOL!
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2015 - 08:45am PT
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Just wondering if we figured out anything here? Should there be anything done to the Rap Route? The Royal Arches route seems to attract folks who want a long easy route and don't have much experience. All the climbing is that but the Rap is alittle more heads up. The fact that its a bunch of Raps is sure a big factor. And the feeling of help close by may cloud a new climbers mind late at nite too. So, anybody??
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Done the NDG three times and it was never anything but trivial.
Certainly WAY less traumatic than the Sentinel descent in the dark.
Rapping anything (and more so with a rap of this length) opens you to a higher percentage of failure and the consequences are hardly ever just injury.
Hiking... not so much.
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chiindi
Big Wall climber
Lakeview, OR
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I always came down (walked) North Dome gully. Even in the dark it's safer!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The route to the top of Washington Column from the top of the Arches is clear enough, and has been for decades. During Labor Day weekend in 1974, an ordinary tourist started from the top of North Dome and somehow ended up on that climber's trail. He followed it toward the Arches and arrived at the rim just as we finished the "twenty-degree slimy slab" crossing at the top. He asked "Does this trail lead to the Valley floor?" We told him to take another couple of steps -- carefully. He made his way down by following us down North Dome Gully.
In fairness, North Dome Gully has racked up its own impressive list of casualties over the years, so I don't blame a noob choosing a rap over a hike (with third or fourth class sections) with a reputation for causing trouble to those unfamiliar.
I just wish Cody didn't bring the rappel route so fully into our consciousness. His was the first fatality of a Fresno climber in Yosemite - that I remember, anyway - since Irving Smith fell from the Lost Arrow Notch almost 55 years ago.
John
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sprout
Trad climber
clovis, ca
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Feb 18, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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I climbed with Cody a lot - including the 3 Saturdays before that fateful Sunday. He was not a noob and made an unfortunate mistake. My first time up the route included a 6 hour descent in the dark - a true learning experience as several have pointed out. I've since done the route a dozen or more times and have always rappelled.
It is unfortunate to read through this thread and see so many joking and distracting from those that have been impacted and honestly want to see if something can or should be done. We're a community and supertopo should be a place people can go for help, information, and resources. My last post here got flamed and I was asking an honest question I didn't know. Yes a lot of noobs go up the route. Yes a lot get stuck and are in over their heads. So maybe that should be addressed instead?
Everything in this thread dances around the concept that the landscape of climbing is changing - more gyms, more noobs, less experienced climbers, easier access, bigger crowds. Exposure to climbing is at all new levels - recent Dawn wall coverage, climbing gyms opening every month (3-4 in the last year just in California with 2+ announced and under construction!). The access fund has recognized this and is currently on an educational tour to try to teach all these new people how to act outside and LNT. They don't know how! And a strong contingency of those who do, sit here laughing and ignoring instead of getting out there and being that mentor most of us had when we all learned. How many are willing to try to make a difference? Something like going into a gym and being that mentor. Lots of experienced and skilled members of the climbing community here.
+1 for cleaning up the tat and standardizing the rappel distances.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 18, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
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Sprout, I was responding to a comment up thread suggesting that someone unfamiliar with North Dome Gully would have a difficult time making it to the top of the Column from the top of the Arches. Unfortunately, my wording makes it sound like I thought Cody was a newcomer, which I knew he was not.
My bad.
John
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Feb 18, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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The infamous NDG... First time I did it was about 13ish years ago. I had just started climbing and we didn't want to do the RA raps. Plus we had read on the taco that you really didn't do RA unless you did the gulley. So I posted here or email about the gulley. DMT kindly sent me a link to some story of him and Angus? in the gulley long ago. The advice I took away was "if you don't know your in the gulley you aren't - keep going"
It's not hard to find. If you don't think you're there you haven't gone far enough along the rim JUST KEEP GOING UNTIL YOU'RE THERE!
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
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I've conveyed interest to climbski2 to help in whatever the plan is to this issue, if any. I can get some others too. First though we need to figure out what it is that needs to be done. Then to come up with a weekend or weekday to do it. I would have to drive a couple of hours. I think mentoring is a great idea even though there is some great info out there. Just seeing it done face to face is the best. Thanks for all the input....
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 18, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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Of the probably 50 times I've done Royal Arches, I only rapped it once. And during that rap, my girlfriend and I recovered somebody's long, thin rappel line, that had become snagged in those trees on the 2nd or 3rd rap. We took it on down, brought it over to SAR camp, and sure enough; one of the boys from SAR had gotten it stuck, spent the night out, and even ended up being helo'd off the rap route. I decided that doing a gazillion rappels on a rap route that ran through vegetation, over terraces with rubble on them, etc, was not only slower, but had a way bigger risk profile to it than just jogging over to north dome gully and walking down. Like everybody else, I've seen many dozens of newbies' headlamps high up on that rap route, in the dark, spending half or all of the night getting down. It's an attractive nuisance. My suggestion? YOSAR would have far fewer incidents and a few less fatalities if we just put some effort into making the North Dome descent the standard, easy to find way to get down off that route. I reckon that a 2nd bolt (OH, HORRORS!!!) on the wet pine needle exit pitch would make it more attractive to tired beginners to go for the jungle and the North Dome walkoff, especially in the spring.
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
Ventura
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Feb 18, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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I don't why I am posting this. Anything worth wild has already been said.
I climbed RA many times. Only rappeled the rap route once. Found it to be a waste of time.
My favorite trip up was to start at 3 pm with the plan to camp on the rim. Mid summer this was a blast. Campfire, good food,booze and great views.
If you need to dumb down a climb so you can do it. You shouldn't be on that climb.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Feb 18, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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I reckon that a 2nd bolt (OH, HORRORS!!!) on the wet pine needle exit pitch would make it more attractive to tired beginners to go for the jungle and the North Dome walkoff, especially in the spring.
All they need to do is downclimb a few feet from the first bolt to a long ledge traverse across then go up if they want to skip the pine needles.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 18, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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YOSAR would have far fewer incidents and a few less fatalities if we just put some effort into making the North Dome descent the standard,
You are deluded to what causes accidents and fatalities.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Feb 18, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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Werner,
I'm 100% sure you've got a lot of data/experience about what causes accidents. Care to share some of it? I'm genuinely curious - no BS. Like top 5 causes for noobs, "mid experienced" (whatever the fuk that is), and very experienced.
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Oscar
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 18, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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What about Christmas lights?
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LuckyNeck
Trad climber
the basement of Lou's Tavern
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Feb 18, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
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I'm super curious who the f*#k you are Sprout. Claiming you climbed with Cody alot...
Best i can figure by your posts, thats flat out not true. I know who he was climbing with the day saturday before he passed, and it wasn't you.
EDIT: my bad duder. It's okay Internet. Me and sprout talked it over, and I'm still the idiot. He's not a liar, I'm simply forgetful (and usually only on the dang forum while intoxicated.) oh what? Like the rest of you aren't!?
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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Werner, you're the old YOSAR hand here. I'm always interested in your thoughts. Fill me in on the errors of my delusions, because from where I sit, I figure that it's a higher risk profile for someone who's a novice climber to do 10+ raps down that rap route, often in the dark, with the trees grabbing ropes and whatnot, than it would be if we just marked the ND gully, and maybe even left a short fixed line or 3 over there. Not any different than having fixed lines on the death slabs. A bivy on the rim or even in the ND gully itself leaves someone in a less risky situation than on the wall if foul weather blows in. I'm not trying to be a smartass or an argumentative dick. And I know that more than a few epics and even a fatality or 3 have occurred on the ND gully. I know I screwed up that descent when I was 16, on my 1st lap on the thing, back in the days of the rotten log. But that rap route just seems like it causes more than its fair share of epics, too. I haven't kept track of the number of accidents or fatalities on each one, but Hartouni's list above in this thread claims there've been more ANAM worthy incidents on the rap route than the ND gully, over the period of years he listed. You have that data at your fingertips. I'm listening. And I'm not a fan of either chopping or reflectorizing the rap route. They wanna play grownup games, they're gonna hafta act like a grownup. But for me, it just seems both faster and safer to do the gully.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
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Feb 19, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
Jesus climbing has become pussified beyond repair. What's next talk of installing a water line up the nose so you can fill a bottle at every belay.
Could they even do that? Seems like it would require a lot of pressure.
What's next??? NPS issued tiny binoculars, so you could more easily watch other supertopans climb at the crag and not introduce yourself? Yikes!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 19, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Feb 19, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
Jesus climbing has become pussified beyond repair. What's next talk of installing a water line up the nose so you can fill a bottle at every belay.
Could they even do that? Seems like it would require a lot of pressure.
0.4335 psi per ft or approx. 70 psi per pitch.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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Here's an idea. Sell your sh#t and go play golf.
I just missed the opportunity to do both on the Arches the first time I was on it. Unfortunately for me, the purists got the Ahwahnee to remove its pitch and putt course before my first attempt on the Arches. Otherwise, the Jungle would have made an excellent tee area for one of the world's most unique par 3's. I know my generation of climbers (including, I'm ashamed to say, me) held golf in various degrees of contempt, but I wonder if any enterprising old timer gave the "Drive the Arches" challenge a try.
John
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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the logic of rapping eludes me,,sooo much sh#t to get hung on,and not a very staight line,,I;d vote for making NDG easyer to find in the dark,,,
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Yeh Melski - like reflectors. . . . mwaahahaha
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son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
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Walk off. Don't rap.
The Geocache crowd has come up with some nice little stealth reflectors.
And some not so stealthy. Firetacks.com
Would not put any on the rap route but a few to mark the safe turn down the
NDG? One model is nearly invisible in daylight but really lights
up when a flashlight hits them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Real climbing implies risk and adventure... you just might die, and some do, and in ways they weren't expecting at the time.
I've gone down NDG so many times I couldn't count. I've "found" the "start" in various closely-related locations at all hours of the day and night. Never had to start rapping or "down-scrambling." It's not that hard, and the idea that the descent needs reflectors and other aids really doesn't add up for me.
Why hasn't somebody "tied a yellow ribbon" on a tree limb at eye-level every five feet along the trail to the exact, optimal spot to start the NDG descent? WHY has this not been done after all these decades? Why, why, WHY?
Of course, there is the "if it can save even one life" argument. So, in that event, I'd highly recommend that the NPS start building the NDG escalator right now. No missing the start of that at the top of NDG. Hurry! Time (and life) is wasting.
Seriously, it seems that many in the "new generation" are so "sportified" that they need to project the predictability of the gym experience out in nature. Like, "We have tape-ticks in the gym, so why shouldn't there be reflectors marking the way to the 'safe' descent?"
Bolt or glue markers and/or reflectors onto the wall? Nail reflectors onto the trees? Whaaattt???
This is the same mentality that seriously believes in retro-bolting run-out routes to make them more popular (to the shriveled sack gym climbers that expect a bolt every five feet). As if popularity or repeatability is a key measure of a worthwhile route. Ohh... but it's gotta be SAFE! Whaaaattt???
I'm with the "give up 'climbing' and take up golf" comment posted above! It seems that golf is the actual level of "adventure" some "climbers" can cope with. Of course, even with golf you'd better carry around a portable lightening rod that you can quickly jab into the ground in the event of inclement weather on the 9th hole.
Or, you could just recognize that yer gonna die, and embrace genuine adventure along the way to that inevitability. The "sportified" form of "climbing" is NOT climbing, regardless of how vigorously you go through the motions.
Die on your feet rather than live on your knees. Please leave the plaques, tape, banners, reflectors, and all that other garbage at home (or in the "climbing" gym) where it belongs.
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raymond phule
climber
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On the other hand. What's the problem with a marked trail? A marked trail would probably at many locations make the human impact on the environment less and it would also make it easier to find the way.
I remember areas in Yosemite were people (mostly climbers I guess) had walk all over a large area and it was cairns, supposed to show the way, everywhere. I marked trail would have been better.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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The biggest problem with the north dome trail is that it has an easy fourth class spot and a couple other inobvious 3rd class bypasses of 4th class slab. I don't see a way to make doing that at night for the first time a recommendable situation. Trail makings or not. I do think some trail markings are ok but they are not going to solve everything. Fact is there have been times it was better marked and actually there still are some (useless hard to see) markers on the NDG trail.
Cleaning up the off route raps and fixing the descent line in one place seem about all that should be done with the rappel route.
Fact is the descent options for Royal Arches are not for your average non outdoorsy tourist. Sadly some climbers really are not any different than that. They have no experience wandering around the wilderness, they are scared of it and unprepared to deal with either of the descent options especially in the dark. Easy enough for folks who enjoy going off trail but a steep learning curve for the uninitiated. Well I wouldn't be stoked for either descent in the dark myself.
I see no way to protect folks like that without resorting to a misty trail type of major effort. Even then someone would manage to get in trouble I'm sure.
I guess a few markers for NDG get my vote as do a couple fixes to the rap route.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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There are no "issues" with the Royal Arches rappells and there are no "problems" with the north dome descent gully.
That's it. I guess this thread can die now.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Climbski2....I replied to a message you sent me and never heard back. I know there are some problems with doing this here so I'm replying back since it looks like we're wrapping it up for now. I guess we'll have to see how the crowds handle themselves out there. http://southernsierraclimber.blogspot.com Thanks for all the input!!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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How long until technology "fixes" this? Me I like Google maps, but some folks love the "adventure" of finding their own path. I guess we all get old in our ways if we don't fall to our deaths along the way.
What's up with these topos of the descent route? Practice?! We talking about practice man. We not even talking about the game. We talking about practice?
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WBraun
climber
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Bolt or glue markers and/or reflectors onto the wall? Nail reflectors onto the trees? Whaaattt???
Popular winter trails are marked by reflectors now a days.
They really help as you can't see the trail in the snow.
Before the reflectors were put in on the trail from Tamarack Flat to top of El Cap we lost some guys
getting lost on the hike during snow covered terrain blitzing to El Cap for a rescue in inclement weather.
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son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
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ejoiminxs
partner
dude
hey why is always super beings like yourself cannot fathom the minds of mortal men? Syht on a stick! Late, dark, cold beers 1200ft below in the cooler and a couple of reflectors peeping back at our
valiant hero's from further than they thought after the top of Washington Column would mean everything.
The climb is over anyway. NDG is hiking. Reflectors are a non-intrusive solution until maybe a few hundred years have passed and a trail is worn by climbers in 2525.
Why Nature did not see fit to place a memorable obelisk type
boulder at the turn down place confuses me greatly.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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In the early 60s in Camp Four, Art "dah move" Gran from dah Gunks decided it would be a good idea to place rock ducks to facilitate descent of the NDG.
Simple solution.
Amborn, either threatened to kill him or at the very least knock them down if he was dumb enough to proceed.
And the idea of reflectors? The Brits and French coastal dwellers had a novel way of enhancing their life style by placing false lights to lure ship onto dangerous reefs and booty for all.
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