Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 89 of total 89 in this topic |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks, Chris.
Ed, the NY Times article is linked in a couple of the Dawn Wall threads.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The Fresno Bee had a front page article and picture of Tommy Caldwell leading form a portaledge belay, with a very prominent rope. Nonetheless, the caption and article reported that they were attempted to climb the Dawn Wall "without the aid of ropes." That eight-foot horizontal dyno must be pretty interesting ropeless!
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Well, DMT, a reporter from the Big Apple missing a few details doesn't surprise me, but a reporter from the Big Raisin parroting the line that they aren't using ropes "except to catch their falls," implying that aid involves climbing the rope, does surprise me.
The Bee used to be sufficiently in tune with climbing to report with some knowledge about the difference between aid, free and free soloing. It even reviewed Roper's 1971 (green) Climber's Guide to the Valley in its Sunday book review in 1971. The decline of the printed medium has really hit the Fresno Bee hard. They've lost a lot of staff, and have gone from a mediocre but tolerable middle-left paper to an idiotic reactionary left rag.
John
Edit: It's funny that you mention the relation of Caldwell to the Dawn Wall. The November weekend when Harding and Caldwell were finishing the route, I was climbing in the Valley with Tommy's father, Mike Caldwell. Because of the circus on El Cap, virtually every other route in the Valley was deserted.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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without the benefit of ropes, other than to catch their falls.
i am amazed at how many peps misread that line!
i thought it a cool way describing free-climbing.
Props to the author!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Beth gots a new boyfriend
Mr Money
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Blueblocr, the phrase "without the aid of ropes except to catch their falls" would also describe any aid climb I've done that didn't involve a pendulum or tension traverse. I think Kevin's description comes closer to the distinction.
While I don't see what's so hard about understanding what constitutes free climbing, I can sympathize with a reporter trying to describe it in a newspaper article. If I say "climbing using only the natural features on the rock," that could include a boltless aid climb, for example. Maybe we could say climbing without placing anything on the rock to move other than hands and feet/shoes, but I suspect I could nitpick that, too, so maybe I should be more charitable.
John
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I think the public should be informed that all climbers who have done the route before used ladders to ascend and these guys are the first to do it without them. I agree. I tried to do that in a comment to the article (which was published) but was limited by the 1500 character requirement and so had to delete it. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference anyways. People get an image stuck in their head from reading the article. That combined with the huge disconnect of what we do and what nonclimbers think we do. Until people either see or do it for themselves, it's just greek to them.
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Fletcher
Boulder climber
A very quiet place
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For the general readership of the NYT, I thought it was a pretty decent article and the misunderstandings that arise are understandable. I personally still can't figure out aid climbing. :-) It can't hurt to contact the writer or NYT ombudsman if something seems really out of wack. I think they have the intention of getting the story as factually correct as possible.
In parallel universes, for example, I'd bet that genetic scientist forums have a lot of hand-wringing and pulling out of hair when the NYT writes about the human genome and other such things. Ha ha!
Tommy and Kevin Jorgensen are posting regularly on Twitter (and Facebook) as well. I like their spirit beyond the obvious admiration for what they are doing. And climbing media and contributors like Corey Rich et al. are also posting away with some really great updates and photos.
Purely for a chuckle, I read through the NYT comments to the article. Not your average comments section, but still the same kinds of misunderstandings, broad pronouncements, and assorted puffery are present as in other venues. There have been a good share of helpful comments as well and some confused posters have even expressed thanks for the subsequent explanations. I saw at least one Supertopo poster positively helping out there (bergbryce I think).
It's all really interesting and exciting. Even in the slo-mo world of climbing!
Eric
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"This sort of extreme sport/conquest/challenge has become the hallmark of this generation. I believe it has surfaced and reached such popularity because life is truly meaningless. Men and women need to be challenged, to be sure, and since we have no wars requiring their mortal risk ( we hire the poor to do that job). They must find other challenges wherein to risk their lives and the lives of others. On this very day in 1945 these men might have been scaling a bridge to put detonation charges in place while receiving heavy enemy fire. We all have it too easy now." -Meadows (commentary)
and in reply to Meadows...
"This is a mark of the current generation? I'd argue that in 1910, these men would have been going to the North or South Pole (where many people died.) Or in 1500, they might have been crossing the Atlantic. Or in 1969, they might have been going to the moon.
Some people are attracted to physical risk and to doing things no one has ever done. Some of those people end up doing the extraordinary. I wouldn't want to be one of them, frankly, but I think that people who take these risks are built that way -- and that they would be living dangerous lives in some other way if they weren't doing this. So good for them, and I wish them luck."
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sempervirens
climber
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NY Times should always seek concurrence from supertopo before going to print, especially regarding non-climbing topics.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Yes, because what they are doing is sooo risky. Really? Super difficult yes, but trying to redpoint with preplaced gear even with big falls is not that risky.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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NY Times should always seek concurrence from supertopo before going to print, especially regarding non-climbing topics. HAHAHA. Nice.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Even when they try and clear things up they're still slightly off…
"Free climbing means they are using ropes and other gear, but only for safety. They are not drilling bolts into the wall, for example, to help their ascent. (That’s known as aid climbing.)"
Or this howler:
"The tip of El Capitan is about 3,000 miles up from the base. "
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Some people are attracted to physical risk and to doing things no one has ever done.
Isn't it great, we are watching Evolution in motion!! Everytime i look at a shot of them boy's up there on The BigStone my mind wants to reflect on Harding's accent of The Nose..
i'd bet both Caldwell and Harding posses the attributes in your above statement! But MAN,,
what different idea's between those two of how to scale that smooth alabaster of a bedroom wall know as ElCapitan. The leaps of what has been done on EC since Harding's accent back in 58' is a wonderful example of mans experiential learning through competition without any anticipation for reward, other than self-satisfaction. The evolution from Aid-climbing, to Free-climbing, to (Free-soloing?) is a testimony of mans determined will to shape his body and earth through work to progress the passions of one's imagination. My imagination thinks Tommy and Kevin are climbing the Dawn Wall cause they Love it!
Once they top-out, there will be need to create a new name for he birth of their new route..
How about; The Dawn of Love? or Sunset til Dawn?, since that's when they mostly climbed!
or not
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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There was also a radio clip on this today on KCRW here in LA (it could have been an NRP piece). I caught part of it, I believe it was someone from Rock and Ice Magazine being interviewed. They did a pretty good job of explaining what was going on in layman's terms.
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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gotta love the comment section...
Patrick
NYC 19 hours ago
Tom Cruise did something like this for that movie Mission Impossible, not sure if it was the I or the II, but he definitely made it look easy. I actually canceled my own trip to El Capitan after seeing that film, and instead went bow hunting for lion in Kenya. Maybe this year I'll give it the old spin.
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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^^^
Thought I'd go bully off to free the Dawn Wall as well! Then I saw the NYT article and binned it. Now it's off to Greenland to shoot gnats with nailguns, ho ho HO!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Perhaps we can look forward to the NYT, and other news media, explaining to the public the fine theological niceties of the different styles of 'free' ascent, including clean, on sight, hangdog, red point, rehearsed, and on and on. Not to mention that the current ascent wouldn't have been considered free by the standards of 1970s Yosemite, but now is by many. And that a true free ascent arguably requires a naked climber without any equipment besides that required for public morals, and previously untouched and unseen rock.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The simple way to frame a general audience article about a specialized sport most folks didn't grow up playing or watching nor yet understanding - include a sidebar with a few key terms and techniques briefly and clearly explained. This provides much-needed context, insight and verisimilitude to the piece and frees up the feature writer to do the "story," as opposed to hacking out an info dump on what all those ropes are doing and how they got up there. It also weeds out howlers, like all the hooey about the rope.
Simple concept, rarely used.
JL
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ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
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Key beta from Mr. Long. Right on.
Kinda funny about this article because as I stood in El Cap Meadow with Tom Evans on January One, 2015 someone speculated about the possibility of a New York Times article.
Tom thought maybe the front page of the Sporting section. Pretty cool to fire up the news and see people try to describe what Tommy and Kevin are making happen up there.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Anybody catch the Today show?
Their piece kept flashing to a pic of Half Dome and calling it El Cap!
lol
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CCT
Trad climber
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Text message from my mom this morning, who is New York Times reader, and who has been kind enough to toprope with me once.
"Saw T Evans and K Jorgeson are on El Cap. This is exciting to see even for me! Glad they wear safety ropes"
Go Tom Evans! And how about that excellent photography, presumably from T. Caldwell himself.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Awesome stuff. This is our super bowl :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Our Super Bowl? Are you nuts?
I'll be impressed when somebody actually frees El Cap without using sling belays!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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^^^
Dawn wall is 5.14D/A0 ;D
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pc
climber
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Well...IMO Aid climbing is climbing "the rope". Aiders are just ropes of a different configuration.
Regardless...
Nice going on the Dawn Wall fellows!
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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When Todd Skinner and his friend first free climbed the Trango Tower, they got some media coverage. I recall Skinner saying that "previous parties had climbed rope ladders, not the rock itself," or words to that effect. So, the media equates aid climbing with "rope ladders." Still, I agree the coverage this time around was confusing.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I would have hoped that the enormous increase in the number of climbers since the Dawn Wall's 1970 first ascent would have resulted in more accurate reporting in matters concerning our hobby. There are plenty of journalists who climb now, so the oversimplification disappointed me, particularly coming from the Times. At least the Fresno Bee reported the cliff's height as 3,000 feet, rather than 3,000 miles.
Oh well, to quote Dudley Do-Right: "But it's in the newspaper, so it must be true."
John
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pschwa
Social climber
The 9th Circle
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sempervirens asked
Ed, or anybody, Any chance you have a link to that NYT article about the first ascent of WOEML?
It doesn't look like the Times actually wrote any articles about the climb, although they carried wire articles from UPI or the AP on November 14, 16-20, and 22, 1970. On November 14 and 19 (after the "rescue" refusal and summit, respectively), they did have wire photos on the front page, below the fold.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I was clenching my nubs even before I saw this quote!
Caldwell, right, and Jorgeson at the Dawn Wall, which has a relentlessly smooth face with few cracks to penetrate or nubs to clench.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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#NubClenching
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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or in tommy's case:
#nubclenchingnub
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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From my monstrous Random House Dictionary the first definition of nub is "a knot or protuberance".
Nub clenching works for me.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Go, Team NubClench!!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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There's a second shorter article about it on the front page of the Times today - Hanging Out 1,200 feet above the Ground. More accurate but the comments are highly critical and cynical. What is it about the internet that brings out such negativism?!
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Brian
climber
California
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What is it about the internet that brings out such negativism?!
Holy shit! I almost pissed myself laughing to read this on Supertopo! Fecking brilliant!
(Not knocking Jan, just the fact that the comment appears here, among so many OT threads so full of vitriol, ad hominem attacks, and so forth.)
Oh, God. Need to go rest. What a gutbuster...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Locker room spillover?
No, probably not.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Between attempts, climbers sand their fingers to remove the dead skin.
The author also says they have to wait for the skin to grow back. They are up on the portaledges growing finger skin now. No surprise, I guess, on a 3000 mile route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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It was the last story on the NBC Nightly News and they actually got it right!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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^^^
That's because Brokaw's a climber.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Between attempts, climbers sand their fingers to remove the dead skin.
The author also says they have to wait for the skin to grow back. They are up on the portaledges growing finger skin now. No surprise, I guess, on a 3000 mile route.
Really? That's hilarious. I haven't read the article yet but it is surprising that the NY Times has so many dubious items in an article. Not that hard to fact check...
Nub clenching
has got to be another one for the books...
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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They just were on NPR's all things considered. Phone interview from the wall. Undoubtedly available on the NPR website.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Just heard on the news that "they put their fingers in razor blade crevasses".
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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I'll be impressed when somebody actually frees El Cap without using sling belays!
Hey Ron, how come I never heard about your free ascent of El Cap? What route did you manage to free climb entirely from ledge to ledge?
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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i heard the npr bit last night picking up my niece and nephew from day care. i had to turn it up loud to drown out their requests for kids music. my aunt texted me last night to see if i had heard about these two climbers, and don't i do that sort of thing?
in my response i guessed that maybe a hundred people had free climbed el cap. does anybody have a more accurate guess.
to put it in terms i thought she would understand, i told her tommy is our micheal jordan who is just a really nice person.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Hey Ron, how come I never heard about your free ascent of El Cap? What route did you manage to free climb entirely from ledge to ledge?
Weight for it.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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YA RON WHAT GIVES???
So much negativity! Quick, someone grab my hand and lock eyes with me quick lest the weight of the world snap my pencil neck!
;)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't have to free something to know what the word means.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
In What Time Zone Am I?
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This has been so educative in so many ways. All the varying reports and their language about what's going on....looking at Tom's pictures...being there and watching them just prior to the media frenzy.
Very exciting .... climbing, front and center, of everything right now!
Susan
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I doubt this will get many more interested in climbing, kind of like how a space station launch doesn't make a zillion astrophysicists.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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^^^^maybe yes, maybe no.^^^^
Could start out with a lotta "wannabes" .... but then when the amount of work and training kicks in it will weed out the dreamers vs. the doers. Just as in my generation as Sputnik flew through the sky we all wanted to become scientists. Many followed through, a lot didn't.
Susan
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, it's hard enough already to swing a dead cat without hitting a noob.
This could lead to climbers impacting on the environment literally.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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I don't have to free something to know what the word means.
Those who can't do, teach.
Lol
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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And a few do both. (how many routes you put up solo?)
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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None. I never claimed to.
Have a nice day Ron.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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"These american colonists have no honor. They fire on us from behind trees and then run away!"
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Just got back to this post... Nub clinching...OMG that is funny.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
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you know they refer to the NYTimes as "The Gray Lady"
you're lucky the pix were in color...
and climbing is oddly 2-D though the surface is tipped up... when you get up far enough, it's like you're crawling, though gravity is parallel to the surface rather than perpendicular.
But the point is well take, a photog should be able to capture this most obvious experience (to a climber) and tell a story (to the public) with it...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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"photo by Tom Evans" on the front page again today...
we'll have to address him as "Sir" if he gets one above the fold...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 14, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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Just grabbed this from the live feed:
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 14, 2015 - 09:53am PT
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Tommy looking at a big pendulum doing some funky undercling moves:
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 14, 2015 - 09:53am PT
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looks like a real fun follow...
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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That live feed is amazing!
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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He's totally hosin' his second!
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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maybe they'll both lead it???
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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That traverse looked scary. Long run out with a bad sideways fall potential.
Yikes !!!
Tommy is such a bad ass .....
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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^^^ wow!! no gear on downclimb/traverse! Should be "fun" alright!!
What a blast!! Nice work TC!!
edit: good call Rhodo. Gotta be.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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I don't think so….TC is staying at the belay.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:17am PT
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Is Kevin following now?
If he falls on that traverse he's dust ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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werner, are you watching on your computer?
that's a funny picture!
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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"leapfrog"?
I'm gripped.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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Yeah I got the live feed going on the internet Ed.
Watching the paint dry :-)
Anyways without the pro for the second on that traverse it looks soooo scary.
I'd run away and hide .....
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:23am PT
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Back to the belay.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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NOOOO!
Guess that's why the boulderer didn't get this pitch.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:29am PT
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Kevin is flailing pretty bad on this one.
Very technical climbing ...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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Hanging on the rope the whole time I watched, I guess he has to repeat it until he gets it clean? He's about to do the unprotected traverse, that should be interesting.
* actually its not unprotected, he's being protected by a piece behind him.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:39am PT
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Don't do it!!
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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Just got back after picking up my daughter. Looks like K is suffering on this one. What's the rating of this pitch?
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 14, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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Sooo... like... why wouldn't he leave a piece in the traverse on his way back up?
Or is that not cool, as it was not there first time?
Dude looked punched on that one.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 14, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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bust it KJ!!!
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