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Messages 1 - 55 of total 55 in this topic |
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:24am PT
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I hear you.
But I guess I'm comparing it to the non-model model that we have/ don't have here in the good 'ol USA.
Makes Vancouver look like public health Nirvana.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:44am PT
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Please do explain why all these Heroin/Meth Addicts ultimately resort to this behavior and then continue to choose to live as they currently do.
No, please, be my guest. You explain it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:51am PT
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Awesome non-answer the chief. Take yourself elsewhere if you don't have anything useful.
Take some time and learn something.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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An old article, but the Netherlands lifetime use with free heroin is about half of the US:
The Dutch parliament (Tweede Kamer) has voted to expand the country's free heroin program after hearing of the overwhelmingly positive results of a two-year pilot program, the Rotterdam newspaper de Volksrant reported March 5. The pilot program is currently providing free heroin to some 300 users, who must be Dutch nationals and at least 25 years of age. The program, started in March 2002, came about as the Ministries of Public Health, Social Affairs, and Justice recognized that despite their best efforts to stop and reduce heroin use, the county had anywhere from one to two thousand hardcore heroin addicts who could not or would not kick the habit. By this summer, a thousand Dutch users could be in the program, parliament members told the newspaper.
Government officials had supported the original pilot project in part because of anticipated economic and social benefits. And they are seeing them. Public Health Minister Borst told de Volksrant that the free heroin program costs around 15,000 euro per patient annually, a far cry less than the costs of prison and petty crime associated with black market drug use.
The policy also conserves law enforcement resources, and keeps heroin users in touch with mainstream society. "All the statistics point to the fact that free heroin is the best policy," Dr. Wim Van den Brink, director of the Dutch agency to treat heroin addicts (CCBH), told the newspaper. After one year in the program, according to Van den Brink, all participants had better mental and physical health, while the number of days addicts engaged in crime to "score" heroin dropped from 14 to two per month.
The announcement that the pilot program would be not only continued but expanded is remarkable coming from a Dutch government controlled by the conservative Christian Democrats (Christen Democratisch Appel or CDA). In addition to earning its rightist stripes by appealing to anti-immigrant sentiments, and sending Dutch troops to Afghanistan and supporting the US occupation of Iraq in the face of mass public opposition, the CDA has proven no friend of relaxing drug laws.
In January 2002, as reported by the newspaper Algemeen Dagblad, before they gained power, the CDA sponsored and passed a bill to prohibit the "testing" of MDMA (ecstasy) pills at raves for impurities or adulterants. For about 10 years local city governments turned a blind eye and allowed such tests at youth centers and private raves as a harm reduction measure, said the Algemeen Dagblad. Despite the obvious public health benefits, the CDA, joined with other Christian and right-wing parties banned the practice. Further, in May 2002 (The Week Online, Issue #238, May 24, 2002), the CDA floated a trial balloon about closing down hash bars and has continued to make similar noises ever since. Their ideological preferences notwithstanding, even CDA leaders, unlike their American counterparts in the US Congress or the Bush Administration, cannot challenge statistics showing the success of free heroin.
Dutch social scientist and drug expert Peter Cohen has famously noted that drug policy has little to do with drug use levels. A comparison of Dutch and US heroin use rates appears to support his point. According to the National Institutes on Drug Abuse (NIDA), the lifetime use rate was 0.85 in the harshly prohibitionist US, while Cohen and other researchers have found lifetime use rates in the more tolerant Netherlands about half the US rate, 0.4%
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:01am PT
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Good posts you all.
The chiefs version of compassion is longer prison sentences.
Dutch social scientist and drug expert Peter Cohen has famously noted that drug policy has little to do with drug use levels. A comparison of Dutch and US heroin use rates appears to support his point. According to the National Institutes on Drug Abuse (NIDA), the lifetime use rate was 0.85 in the harshly prohibitionist US, while Cohen and other researchers have found lifetime use rates in the more tolerant Netherlands about half the US rate, 0.4%
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:05am PT
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Do you currently or ever have practiced or participate in recovery programs with any recovering drug addicts?
Yes.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Just another Band Aid that society in general places on the open wounds of Heroin/Meth or any other "Drug" Addiction and why it has become an epidemic globally.
What would the non Band Aid solution be - round them up back and shoot them?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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As usual, you and others will politicize the disease of addiction.
No, we leave that to the government.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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As usual, you and others...
In this case, I think the "others" includes you, Chief.
With respect to someone who is obviously deeply involved in helping addicts of various kinds deal with their problems, I'm not sure you understand the scale of the problem at that time in Vancouver. It was the heroin capital of North America (and, not unrelatedly, the AIDS capital of the First World), and the kind of one-on-one support that you offer simply wasn't an option.
It's also worth pointing out that this was not a politically-driven decision in Vancouver. The push for the harm-reduction approach came from some truly badass cops. Guys that you would look up to. But also guys who worked the streets in the most drug-ravaged city in North America, and understood the problem in a way that I doubt you can. Most of the politicians, from the municipal to the federal level, and of whatever degree of rightness or leftness, were dead set against it, and convincing them was a massive job.
I don't know what you would have done if you had the power to set policy in Vancouver in the 1990s, but I'd be happy to listen...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 09:04am PT
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I see you did not answer my question Survival...
Nor am I required to.
My OP was to support the whole idea of Vancouver and their clinic. The people who work there certainly believe in it, as do many smart public health and public policy experts.
Look at the numbers from Europe, compared to our incarceration nation. That's good enough for me.
It's not going away, no matter how much abstinence you preach. Believe that.
Edit: Great post Ghost!
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thebravecowboy
climber
hold on tight boys
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Sorry Ghost, but I am pretty sure Barcelona takes the cake for HIV capitol of the first world.
Look at the numbers from Europe, compared to our incarceration nation. That's good enough for me.
It's not going away, no matter how much abstinence you preach. Believe that.
+1 Survival
Chief, I was raised in a whitebread conservative suburban community where abstinence was the expectation. As with sex or other heavy neural alterants, naturally, the youth did not abstain, and in fact were drawn to the verboten magnetically. I think that a more nuanced and complex approach is needed to keep junkies from making the exit.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Why did it ever get to that point, Ghost.
I'm not going to pretend to have the answers, but it certainly wasn't that Vancouver was run by libs who encouraged free drugs for all.
Part of it is geography. Imagine if there was only one city in the US where you could pass out in an alley or a doorway in the winter and not die. That might make it a magnet for the kind of people who pass out in alleys, leading to a concentration of addicts unlike any other city.
But really, I don't have any simple answer to your question. Why does it get to that point anywhere? I don't know.
But the one indisputable fact is that it did get to that point, and as much as it would have been nice to have been able to wave some kind of magic wand and make the problem disappear, we were stuck with what was, not what we wished could be.
But again, if you'd been tasked with making the decision of how to deal with it, what would you have done?
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thebravecowboy
climber
hold on tight boys
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you think a junkie is not the first person to see, feel, and recognize his sickness, chief?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Education of why one should never initially engage in such a behavior in the first place is the proactive approach to this issue.
Don't do drugs because you could go to jail & if you go to jail the drugs are really expensive there.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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don't give me irrelevant anecdote.
Seems pretty damn relevant to me, but what do I know, I only have a brother
who has steadfastly refused to admit he is a junkie and will likely go to
his grave just so he can prove us all wrong.
Good work, Chief.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Bruce, I'll ask you a rhetorical question:
Why does it matter where he kills himself? It's his decision, isn't it?
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John M
climber
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Science and Politics can't do shet when that invades ones life/lives.
Chief, you have a habit of stating things in absolutes. The first two videos that Bruce posted say that the program Vancouver is using has increased the number of people who go into rehab programs. It has also decreased the number of new cases of aids and hep C. these seem like pretty good things.
I don't think that any one program is going to fix the addiction problem. One of the main characters in the first video said he was raised in foster care. He said it as though that was a big problem. He did not go into what the problems were, but I'm sure that most people know that there are problems with that program. Perhaps this should be a different thread, but I wonder what we can do about that problem. What to do with kids whose parents are in jail, or dead. The foster care program sure seems to have issues. But then I suppose parenting itself has issues.
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John M
climber
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You forgot two so important factors... the patient in most cases was in control when they initially chose to associate themselves with the drug. AND, until they abstain from ingesting the drug, they have no control. Thus, in order to retain some control and regain some sort of rational thinking and decision making capabilities regarding the choice to continue with the drug inflicted behavior, it is paramount that one get off the drug and rid that drug from their body and mind. Continued ingestion of that drug does not allow for that to occur..... rational thinking and decision making abilities. That comes from the long R&D "science" of recovery.
I agree that getting someone off the drugs is the highest solution to helping them learn to make better decisions. But what of those who don't respond to programs aimed at helping people get off of drugs. The first two videos Bruce posted say that this new programs has increased the number of people going into rehab. Mostly because they OD, then they are given that drug that reverses the OD. When they survive, they are given an opportunity to see that happened, and a place to go get off of drugs. Before this program those people were ODing on the street and a large percentage were simply dying.
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John M
climber
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Why did Vancouver allow itself to reach the level of misery that it did. Why did the city officials turn a blind eye to the realities that were occurring in that area of their community?
Appears that there was no form of control. Just outright blatant allowance of this chaotic behavior to continue in their city.
Thus my initial response of reactive behavior on the part of society.
Some problems are overwhelming. Some don't have any easy answers. I don't mean to be hard on you Chief, but facts are facts and sometimes have to be faced. Your child was an addict for 8 years. Most likely in part because you were an addict. What should society have done about that? Should society have taken away your child and put him in foster care? Certainly society should have helped you with your addiction problems, but once those addiction problems are known, the damage to the child is already well under way. In order to protect your child, should society have been proactive and forbidden you to have a child? I only ask these questions in order to try and help you see that it isn't black and white. Not everything can be acted proactively on.
In other words, sometimes one does have to react, because not every problem is fixable in advance.
I fully agree that more proactive things need to be done. More available mental health care would be a start. But being proactive isn't the only thing that needs to happen. We also have to react to what is happening now.
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John M
climber
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Hey Chief, This is John M. Not Ken M. I'm not a physician. Ken is. I just have a long history of dealing with mental and physical health issues, including drug abuse. Though I mostly quit drugs 25 years ago. with a few relapses. And haven't had any issues with them for 15 years unless you count 8 years of "legal" use of anti depressants.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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They too answered your question just as I did.
And I hope you will try to answer mine. That is, had you been put in charge of dealing with Vancouver's drug problem twenty-five years ago, what would you have done?
And for the record, I don't disagree with what you've been saying, and very much respect your work in helping others. And I really am interested in what you might have to say about the situation as it was then.
Why things reached that point in that city at that time is the subject of another discussion -- and a potentially valuable one -- but I'm curious to know what you think you would have done if you'd been put in charge there and then. You obviously think taking the harm-reduction approach was a mistake, but what would you have done?
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John M
climber
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So when is Vancouver going to open up clean alcohol centers in order serve the homeless downtown alcoholics population clean booze. Thus reducing the epidemic of alcohol poisoning from ingesting cheap ISOPRO alcohol and other forms of non-liquor types of the alcoholic drug?
come on Chief. You don't have to go down the absurd route.
How about answering Ghosts question.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Chief,
You must know first hand that right now there are addicts out on the street who are unwilling or unable to seek the kind of help you provide. You would also probably be aware that addicts who are not in counselling, or treatment or who have just relapsed are highly likely to engage in risky behavior such as needle sharing.
INSite and other similar efforts do not promote the continued use of drugs as you suggest. They acknowledge the reality that it is happening and that there is a measurable reduction in communicable disease within the population of addicts as well as ODs by treating addiction as a health issue.
Justifying this abnormal behavior is not the solution. Let's start treating the reasons why and not the actual shooting up of the drugs.
This kind of thinking isn't based in reality. Yes, proactive, preventative measures can save people and families horrendous suffering. If you can get to someone early enough the road back to normalcy will be possible and easier. You can't pretend that people aren't going to fall through the cracks and any answer to your question of "why Vancouver was allowed to get to that point" is not going to be a rational argument against harm reduction.
You can choose to not treat the "actual shooting up of the drugs" but in doing so you must ignore the benefits of doing so.
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John M
climber
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John....
I did. Drug court programs work taking the addicts off the streets, providing medical assistance during the detox phase and then providing resources to clean them up mentally, psychologically and physically. With follow up resources for life long recovery.
I don't live in Canada, but from what I could find, it appears that they do have drug court.
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/about-the-court/court-innovation/DrugTreatmentCourt
And from what the video Bruce posted, this new method gets even more results. So it appears that is not a one or the other, but a combination of efforts. I can't verify this, but it appears that they have both programs.
Can any of you Candadians verify this?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Again, isn't it easier to just agree to disagree?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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The Chief - are you capable of seeing beyond your own biases?
Just curious.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I never said my take on your perspective was negative.
Why would you say that?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I do appreciate your efforts in helping people, Chief - felt I had been misunderstood.
Any effort to help people get over addiction is a positive effort, that's why I found this comment by you disturbing
You think my bias is a negative aspect to this issue
Hope we can shake hands instead of you punching me out when we eventually meet in this small town...
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Personal intervention and responses even at the Drug Court level in smaller population density areas may be effective. Attempting to do that on a large scale in a major urban area is a different matter and likely requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending of public health money.
Apples and oranges...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Thanks, Chief - appreciate the work you do.
As Todd stated above, the metropolitan take is very different.
Two sides of the same coin - I just escaped LA, so my take is a bit sided that way.
Cheers.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Attempting to do that [personal intervention] on a large scale in a major urban area is a different matter and likely requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending of public health money.
And if that major urban area has the worst injection drug problem in North America, then "requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending" escalated to a level that is effectively impossible to achieve.
Rick, or others like him, can achieve wonderful results in a one-on-one or small-group setting. Dealing with tens of thousands of injection drug users in an historically toxic section of a city requires a different approach.
Not to say that people who care can't help people in need in that setting, rather that it is a drop in the ocean relative to the overall problem.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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^^ Very cool!
Vancouver is in a different country with different rules (to state the obvious).
I grew up 50 miles from the Canadian border, and I can tell you: it is VERY different than SoCal and AZ.
Living in the rain changes things...
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John M
climber
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Read the other thread Chief, Crime went down. So did the number of new cases of aids and hep C. And what went up were the number of addicts who went into treatment programs.
Also.. its not necessarily clean heroin. The addicts in Vancouver have to bring their own drugs. And some of them do OD. Its just that now there are trained nurses who can administer Naloxone, which counters the opiates. The video says that so far none of those who have ODed there have died. And many of them then take the opportunity to enter treatment.
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John M
climber
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I'm not surprised that some would do that. There are all kinds of different personalities. We currently have no way to fully treat this disease in every human. We can dry them out. We can teach them and show them what is going on, and some will still go back. As you have witnessed.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Oct 10, 2014 - 01:15am PT
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Right on Chief you win again.
I like hanging with you way more on climbing threads than these types for sure.
Respect for overcoming your demons and helping others who have shown you theirs Chief.
But don't think for a second that means you know a thing about anyone else's personal experiences or what they have seen and it definitely doesn't give you the right to discount their opinion, especially about a neighbourhood you have never walked thru.
I linked the other thread because it had some good posts and productive exchanges of ideas.
Peace out.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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Not like it matters, but why did you start a new thread instead of bumping the old one Survival??
No wonder it all felt like Deja Vu all over again, all over again, all over again!!!
This one turned into another thread about the chief....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2014 - 08:54am PT
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Yet here you are.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 10, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Yet here you are.
Yes, here he is. And you are. And I am. But somehow The Chief is not. Or not now.
He was here, and making some good points (if in his usual abrasive fashion). But he seems to have vanished.
What happened?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 10, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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What happened?
How dare he leave us in the lurch!
A question that I have is that like so many social projects the 'conclusions'
seem to be rather blithely taken for granted as if it was some sort of physics
experiment with proper controls and such. And it seems to me even more blithe
to assume that the longer term prospects will prove much more than a bandaid
on an arterial gusher. Wouldn't it be better for society as well as these
people to just round them up and put them in a happy home where they can
shoot up under controlled conditions with state-provided smack?
Why go half-assed on this?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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What happened?
He called me something like an attention whore for unknowingly making 2 identical threads, 2 years apart.
But 30-40 of the posts in this thread were his, thus my "Yet here you are." comment.
He wasn't getting enough hugs apparently.
He should also qualify for Couch's deleting thread now......
At any rate Ghost, you and Tami and others who actually have first hand knowledge with the facility in question are to be commended.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 10, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
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This is becoming the ever-shrinking thread. Every time I look at it, more posts have been deleted. Rick deleted all of his, but since then a few more have disappeared.
But for what it's worth, it struck me that a couple of people, both of whom had intelligent and relevant things to say, just couldn't resist insulting one another instead of trying to find common ground -- of which their was plenty.
The problem was that The Chief was looking at things from the relatively narrow point of view of "what is the best way to help the addict," while most of the rest of us were looking at it from the "what is the best way for the community to deal with this problem" point of view. And then BK started looking at it from the "what is the best way to insult The Chief" point of viww, and The Chief retaliated in kind, and the two of them ruined it for everyone else.
Typical day on the internet, I guess, but it is frustrating when people with good ideas get so wrapped up in harshing on each other that they forget the 90% common ground they share on a subject.
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John M
climber
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Oct 10, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Good post Ghost.
Its an important subject. I wish people could get past their stuff.
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John M
climber
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Oct 10, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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but the main thing I am directing insult at is unreasonable people,
exactly.. your inability to NOT insult people makes conversation difficult.
You only control yourself.
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John M
climber
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Oct 10, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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never intends to seek resolution, only continued dominance and control of the conversation to further their power?
What do you think that you accomplish by attacking such a person? Doesn't that just further the noise?
Did you notice that the Chief and I managed to have a conversation? How does that align with your paradigm?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
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Tami -- "the issue of addiction and people is vitally important to attend to in order to create a civil society."
Yes ... very nice.
Generally one can not give up something unless its greater.
This how you can tell false renunciation from the real.
When it's completely real one will never go back .....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2014 - 12:35am PT
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Well, I'm glad that a few of you stuck around anyway. Obviously I feel that it's an important subject, and I also feel that Vancouver was doing the right thing in following the example of some hard hit places in Europe. They thought outside their box. Or rather, they thought outside the North American box.
The chief is an experienced guy, who tries to walk the walk. I admire that. He has put in his time trying to make a difference. He was making good points here, as he always does. What rubs me wrong is the way he talks down to others on any subject, as though his point of view is the only one with any merit.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2014 - 09:33am PT
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What rubs me wrong is the way he talks down to others on any subject, as though his point of view is the only one with any merit.
Too true. And if you don't agree with him 100%, he reacts as if you should be thrown in the brig. Doesn't matter if you agree with 99% of his idea, and have a question about just 1% of it. Unless you say "Chief, you are absolutely right!" he's on you like a rabid badger.
But I think we were starting to get him moving toward some kind of dialog on this one.
Oh well... next time.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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On you like a rabid badger.
Honey Badger don't give a shit!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
And for now I am officially done bagging on the chief, since I do have much respect for his past, a position which he has so far not afforded to me.
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John M
climber
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Oct 11, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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I can't reply adequately right now ( probably welcomed by most it seems) but for now I suggest there is overt forms of disrespect and then there are insinuated forms, and I suggest that engaging in a conversation from a position of intransigence is as insulting or more so than any other, as it subverts process, a process that connects us despite differences. It serves no purpose to pretend otherwise simply o " get along".
It's an ethic that is insulting. I get it that replying in turn doesn't elevate the conversation and respect that maybe your right and maybe I' ll just shut up for now seeing how at least some would appreciate it
Its not that we want you to shut up. Its that we wish that you really did get it. Your first paragraph and your history here tells me that you don't get it. Your first paragraph above says.. what he did is worse, so it justifies what I did. We all agree that how the Chief communicates isn't very respectful. We get that. But your argument is just like Lois' argument. Formerly known as LEB. " He attacked me first". Yours is slightly different, but still has the same effect. To dominate the conversation.
Don't shut up. Change how you respond to situations like this, because assuredly, even if its not the Chief, there will be someone else who acts this way.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2014 - 11:08am PT
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Been burying far too many of Shipmates lately....
Nowhere near as many as would have been buried if you, and others like you, hadn't been doing what you do.
Sometimes the world is a shitty place.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2014 - 11:16am PT
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Sorry to hear that. That is bad news indeed.
There have been 3 suicides that hit way too close to home in my life this year also. That's a whole other rough subject.
We need more dignity in death laws, like Oregon.
Once again, sorry The Chief.
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