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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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The latest issue of Rock and Ice magazine has a (cover) story from Jason Haas about the legality of climbing on Navajo reservation lands: "Illegal - Not Necessarily". As someone who has always wanted to climb in Monument Valley I was excited to read about some relaxation of the outright ban on climbing. However, the article contained no such information.
Instead, what the article does is follow a couple of climbers who visited a Navajo climber on the reservation and managed to tick off a few routes with him under the guise of legality since they were with a Navajo. Jason provides a nice history of climbing in the Valley and a thought-provoking, reasoned discussion of the existing ban as well as his feelings about climbing there. I don't have a problem with Jason's article, but i do have some concerns about the way Rock and Ice presented it. For example, the cover itself claims that climbing on the Rez is ''not necessarily' prohibited. It is, a fact laid out in the article itself. There is nothing new regarding the ban, it is still total and official. Why would the magazine present it this way?
Further, the highlighted quotes from Jason's article are phrases like 'There is No Definitive, Official Reservation-Wide Ban on Climbing' which is taken out of context and leads readers to conclude that it's ok to climb there. The rest of that quote is the statement that would-be climbers would still have to get permission from the heads of each Chapter and the person(s) holding grazing permits on those lands.
I realize Rock and Ice is a business and as such they want to sell magazines. Putting what they did on the cover probably sells more mags than say, "Navajolands still officially closed to climbing, but one Navajo man disagrees, accompanies Anglo climbers on several routes."
IMO this is unethical, as is their recent glorification of climbing areas featuring manufactured holds and retrobolting existing routes in Connecticut. There are other examples of questionable ethics as well. Jeff Jackson and I had email correspondence awhile back after the Riggins article and he basically said he didn't think his magazine should take any ethical stance, only report what is happening in the climbing world...that to do otherwise would amount to censorship.
As the definitive American climbing publication does Rock and Ice have an obligation to uphold ethical standards? Their influence on climbing's collective conscience is beyond question. Do they have a responsibility to our community? Is it reasonable to hide behind a the veil of anti-censorship when you clearly edit your magazine to advance a particular interpretation? And select articles that frequently go beyond 'reporting' to editorializing?
Is Rock and Ice hoping by printing the Monument Valley article that climbers start going there against Tribal leaders' wishes? Are they willing to accept responsibility if this occurs? What do groups like The Access Fund think about an article like this, which seem to undermine their efforts to get approval from the Navajo to allow rock climbing on their lands...an article (and headline) that appears to encourage climbers to use some nebulous definitions and language regarding the climbing ban to justify their own ascents?
Seems pretty irresponsible to me. I won't be renewing my subscription.
How about you, at-large climbing community? Thoughts? Criticisms? I'm Gunna Die?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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Anybody interested in the subject of the ban should read Crusher's recent desert towers book. He devotes a lot of space to this issue, and has put together the best analysis of it that I've seen.
And of course the rest of the book is great as well, but it's almost worth it just for that bit of history.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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I don't read the rags much and as long as it's not outright lies they have to do what they have to do to sell them / survive.
Seems like the smart thing to do would be to allow climbing only with a Navajo guide. It would create good jobs, and allow a Navajo to monitor activity to make sure the environment is respected. Win-Win.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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"Navajo climbing guide" sounds like a great financial opportunity
Watch 'Navajo Cops' on Netflix to see what life is really like on the Rez.
opening up their land to guided climbing could be a real positive for people locked into poverty and addiction
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
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It ain't Indian Creek out there, in more ways than one.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
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Couldn't agree more. However there are still considerable barriers to accomplishing this and to me the RnI article jeopardizes the dialogue and negotiations necessary to accomplish this. Running a cover story green-lighting Navajolands should come AFTER permission is granted, not before.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Hey fluffy,
I actually really liked the article. It's honest, up front. It explores (and exposes) the complexity of the situation.
the legality of climbing is uncertain, in a land where no one has ownership of land (in the normal, modern, western sense) and where police/local Navajo/Reservation-wide Navajo/State/Federal jurisdiction is still not really figured out.
Best thing seems to be to climb with respect, with permission from the locals. If this is not forthcoming, leave. Navajos who enjoy climbing--recreating, engaging in a healthy way with their landscape--really changes the picture.
The cover is what it is. They are trying to sell magazines. Both R&I and Climbing are struggling to come up with anything to grab the readers' attention.They almost give subscriptions away.
Myself, while I enjoyed this article, I really hated the irresponsible, deceptive, distorted article about the rappelling fatality in the Cascades. One of the most annoying articles on climbing I've ever seen in print. Careful reading of the online version exposes how dishonest the final R&I print version is. There was a thread about this. The print version of the online article is actually worse than the online one.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2273906/Chopped-bolts-lead-to-death-on-Forbidden-Peak
I'd cancel my subscription for this ... then I'd start it up again when another Jason Haas article appears!
And thanks Ghost!
Crusher
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 29, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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opening up their land to guided climbing could be a real positive for people locked into poverty and addiction
yeah - like churches renting out rooms for prostitution would bring in a lot of cash for the church
ain't gonna happen 'cause it ain't about the $$$
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 29, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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For example, the cover itself claims that climbing on the Rez is ''not necessarily' prohibited. It is, a fact laid out in the article itself. There is nothing new regarding the ban, it is still total and official. Why would the magazine present it this way?
to get you to read it. To get you to talk about, and write about it.
They were right, it worked.
As the definitive American climbing publication does Rock and Ice have an obligation to uphold ethical standards?
They do. But here's the rub: you aren't a professional journalist, and you don't define what the ethical standards are for that profession. You think you do, because you are a God-fearing free American, and therefore have an opinion on everything. But you don't.
'There is No Definitive, Official Reservation-Wide Ban on Climbing' which is taken out of context and leads readers to conclude that it's ok to climb there. The rest of that quote is the statement that would-be climbers would still have to get permission from the heads of each Chapter and the person(s) holding grazing permits on those lands.
I'm not sure that you are in a position to state what people think or conclude. Probably, they do what you do, and read further.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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Crusher, thanks for weighing in. Your input and perspective are invaluable and greatly appreciated. Regarding the 'chopped bolts lead to fatality' bullsh*t that was just published I was similarly disgusted. This provides a further example of my original complaint. Thanks for bringing it up.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jan 29, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
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rent-a-Navajo
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jan 29, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
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Here's what the tribe has to say:
SPECIAL NOTE TO ALL VISITORS AND TOURISTS
All areas on the Navajo Nation are closed to non-Navajos unless you have a valid camping, hiking or backcountry permit issued by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department or other duly delegated tribal authority. Failure to have a permit is considered Trespassing on a Federal Indian Reservation.
DO NOT desecrate Navajo lands and violate the trust of Navajo people by discarding cremated human remains on tribal property. Please respect tribal beliefs.
NO ROCK CLIMBING or BASE JUMPING on Navajo Land. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb the Monuments. “Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue,” Parks Department Manager.
http://navajonationparks.org/permits.htm
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jan 29, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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I have had issues with edits on submissions. Statements taken out of context, then printed without my approval.
Standard practice, they protect what they invest in....Repeat authors/writers.
Jeff Jackson and I had email correspondence awhile back after the Riggins article and he basically said he didn't think his magazine should take any ethical stance, only report what is happening in the climbing world...that to do otherwise would amount to censorship.
Talk about censorship...Yeah, right. Keep on cutting up others work, Spin it to the kids nice and neat JJ.
R&I is dead.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 29, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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I agree with Crusher.
Jason did a good job with the article--I'd love to one
day climb in the Navajo lands. But only if it is a sanctioned
climb.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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In case I wasn't clear in the OP I liked what Jason wrote, and took no issue with it. The way it was presented bothered me.
Just looking for a little journalistic integrity, tough to find these days.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 29, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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Here's what the tribe has to say:
SPECIAL NOTE TO ALL VISITORS AND TOURISTS
All areas on the Navajo Nation are closed to non-Navajos unless you have a valid camping, hiking or backcountry permit issued by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department or other duly delegated tribal authority. Failure to have a permit is considered Trespassing on a Federal Indian Reservation.
DO NOT desecrate Navajo lands and violate the trust of Navajo people by discarding cremated human remains on tribal property. Please respect tribal beliefs.
NO ROCK CLIMBING or BASE JUMPING on Navajo Land. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb the Monuments. “Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue,” Parks Department Manager.
http://navajonationparks.org/permits.htm
What complicates things is that "the tribe" is far from a homogenous unit, and is not in agreement on this (nor on many other things).
An equivalent? Perhaps the conflict between federal and state laws, right now, over marijuana. Federal law states quite clearly that pot is illegal. Yet Colorado and Washington are openly in conflict with this. I read just today of CO mothers feeding specific, low THC strains of pot to autistic/developmentally slow toddlers and reporting that results were far superior to prescription drugs. Feeding pot to 3-year-olds? On the face of it this is criminal and totally immoral. And yet....
My take is that the real crux of the matter (back to climbing on the rez) is that a few climbers will usually be welcome. Small numbers allow for meaningful interaction and a pleasant, fulfilling experience for all. But if an easing of the ban results in crowds of gumbies, Half-Dome-Cables-style (or Everest-style), ascending the Totem Pole, Left Mitten Thumb or Shiprock, driving in, driving straight back out, this will be resented and will cause the currently nominal ban to be enforced again, and perhaps more strongly than ever.
EDIT: Sorry for the thread drift, fluffy. About the cover. I thought it was okay. But I don't have high expectations these days. The covers promise far more than the inside actually delivers. It's been that way for years. There's so much media--blogs, mags, websites, forums, sponsored climbers, on and on, all competing for attention that the print mags are kinda dying, they have to yell and exaggerate just to get any attention. Pre-internet they were all there was for information on new routes, opinion, access. They were more important and more careful back then. Now they seem to be all ads with a few frothy features, generally about sponsored climbers, thrown in. The Jason Haas article was an exception. Made me buy a copy.
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Joshua Johnson
Boulder climber
Boulder
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Jan 29, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
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Don't plan on climbing any of the towers in that article for a while.
You put this nonsense in a "magazine" and much like a bouldering area that is hyped, kids will come.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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I believe that Jeff Jackson and his cohorts at Rock and Ice have been doing a real disservice to the climbing community for a number of years.
I am glad to see other folks upset with this magazine.
Several years ago R&I published an article with the headlines something like, "Climbers defy bolt ban at Red Rocks." I did not think it was a good idea to glorify criminal activity by climbers and contacted the author of the story. This young man basically told me that he and the photographer did it for the money.
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Al_Smith
climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 29, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
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Sorry for the totally off-topic reply, but I also wanted to provide some praise for Bartlett's book...
As a total bibliophile, I have a great many books stacked all over the place in my apartment. In fact, I've purchased virtually every climbing related book I've been able to get my hands on, going so far as to fly home from Boulder, New Hampshire, even Chamonix and Switzerland, with books in my arms where I had purchased them without room in my luggage to transport them home. Its been a constant source of amusement and some frustration for my girlfriend. Now, with credentials established, I'll go on to say that Bartlett's book is without a doubt the absolute best climbing related book that I own...Deeply researched, incredibly well written, and full of awe inspiring photographs from one of our absolute luminaries of desert climbing.
I went so far as to purchase a second copy to send to a friend who is more interested in the desert than climbing and he reported back that he absolutely loved it.
If you haven't yet had the chance, I'd highly recommend you check it out! (And fwiw, I don't normally sling praise around, and certainly not in public. I know Crusher is on this thread, so want to be clear that I'm not a shameless flatterer...just someone who truly LOVES that book!)
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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Yeah that Red Rocks article stands out as particularly offensive, though it is only one of many such articles published in recent years that demonstrate a lack of integrity, moral compass and commitment to ethical standards.
Anything to sell ad space I guess. Even if it means jeopardizing access and goodwill with land managers.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
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Wasn't it the very next month after the Red Rocks botch job that Jeff "The Chisel Champion" Jackson published his essay on the virtues of rock modification?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 29, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
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Just looking for a little journalistic integrity, tough to find these days.
How is "journalistic integrity" qualitatively different than what you feel or believe? Are you suggesting that there is some stand-alone, objective position, absolutely free of biases, to which Jeff and Rock and Ice are none the wiser to, but you are? If so, what is it, in plain English?
So far, what I have read sounds more like a personal issue with you staking claim on some imaginary high ground. What is the real issue here, in your opinion - NOT what Rock & Ice are doing, but with the topics themselves?
JL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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Largo,
I'm not sure I completely understand your question.
As far as my comments, I believe it is irresponsible for a magazine to have the headlines, "Climbers disobey Red Rock bolting ban". Said article continues with a harsh judgment of the land managers and their handling of climbing at Red Rocks. I believe we should be working with, not against, land managers to solve these issues we have with management of public lands.
I haven't seen the latest issue dealing with climbing on banned Navajo lands, yet from what I gather from what is written here, it does not seem wise for a magazine to be promoting climbing on prohibited lands.
I won't sugar coat it, my beef with Jackson is personal, too. I believe the man and his magazine owe the climbing world a sincere, heartfelt apology for the damages they have caused to access. I know that life is not fair, but it does not seem reasonable that a tiny minority is making money (however slight) at the expense of the world climbing community.
AN
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
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Journalistic integrity has nothing to do with my climbing ethics. It's a measure of how fairly and honestly a publication presents the writings of others and editorializes about sensitive issues in a non-destructive manner. Perhaps Rock and Ice is out to stir up sh#t with the 'powers that be' but more likely they're just trying to sell glossy paper.
The topics themselves...are not the issue here, it's how they're being treated by this publication.
And when I say journalistic integrity is rare, I'm also referring to the published word beyond Carbondale's little piece of crap.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
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The ban on climbing in the navajolands was first informed on the climbing community in the June 1971 Summit mag (I am staring at the letter).
I believe it is a major disservice to relations between climbers and the navajo leadership with this article coming out. The chances of opening the reservation to permitted climbing are now going to be set back a decade because Haas et al had to show off for his advertisers. I have spoken to Quentin about climbing on the res, but I doubt he understands what the tribal elders will think and what their actions will be. I know for now, the police will be out in force until this is settled.
by the way, the shot through the tree of angel wing is not the bandito route but the back side 'oreo girls' because I was there first mo fos.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
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I believe it is a major disservice to relations between climbers and the navajo leadership with this article coming out.
1+
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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How is "journalistic integrity" qualitatively different than what you feel or believe? Are you suggesting that there is some stand-alone, objective position, absolutely free of biases, to which Jeff and Rock and Ice are none the wiser to, but you are? If so, what is it, in plain English?
My own take would be that journalistic integrity is not a position at all, but a goal.
No journalist can ever achieve a stand-alone, free-of-bias position. But good journalists try to be as objective as they can within all the constraints they have to deal with. Some do better than others.
I have a beef with the Forbidden Peak article. It tries to pin blame for a fatal rappelling accident on the actions of a specific NPS ranger, who is named. A very serious, heavy accusation. The accusation is not supported by the facts presented in the article. Repercussions from a well-known climbers' magazine making such accusations may haunt climber-NPS negotiations over access and fixed anchors for years to come. So the accusations against the ranger in question are unfounded and also detrimental to the climbing community.
Whether the fault lies with Jackson or with some unnamed editor who hacked his article to pieces and added a nasty title I don't know.
Anyway, a thread like this can be good feedback for the R&I people, help them tread more carefully, achieve more "journalistic integrity" in the future.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
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+ 2
It is not so much about journalism as it is about respect. This kind of thing won't get you very much on the Rez. You have to give it to get it.
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Jan 29, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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I canceled my subscription to R&I years ago; piece of sh#t climbing drivel is all it is
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:42am PT
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Is Rock and Ice Magazine really, "A magazine for climbers, by climbers"?
I sincerely hope that the Federal and Tribal Law Enforcement Officers reading this thread realize that this magazine in no way represents the view of many climbers.
crunch, that is too bad about the bolt chopping piece, it sounds like the article was not well thought out.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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BASE used to not only be legal on the Res, it was admired. We would go down to the park service office and get out permit to enter Canyon de Chelly, meet up with our Navajo guide (don't dare go into that place without your legally required guide), and then jump all that we wanted.
It closed down when the park service district manager found out about it, but it had been going on for years. We were very discrete. We never allowed any pics to be published, that kind of stuff.
I remember one thanksgiving where our guide invited us to his house for thangsgiving dinner. We were told to sit at the small table while all of the women, kids, and old folks sat on the floor to eat.
The walls were covered with BASE photographs from Carl Boenish onwards.
After the ban, which was not the idea of the Navajo, we stopped going in there. The Navajo really do not like white people going in there without paying. Out of respect, since we could no longer pay a guide without getting him into trouble, we stopped. It was a damn good site, too.
We were always more than happy to pay our guide, and one time we found a new site that was owned by a 90 year old woman who didn't speak English. We paid her for the opportunity, and her grandson's drove her in with her sitting in a big recliner in the back of an old pickup. They built a warm fire and we jumped all day with her watching, and obviously having a good time.
So yes, part of it is about money. The other part of it is about the poverty of the reservation, and a general dislike of white folks who bullied their way around without paying, in some way, for the permission of the Navajo.
Of course I have friends who have done Spider Rock and the Totem Pole. If they catch you, they won't be happy. When whitey visits the res, he is not the boss. A lot of it revolves around that last sentence.
Having been entertained and treated with far more respect than we deserved, none of us ever went back to jump. Others still do it, but if you set foot in the Canyon floor without permission, expect to get your ass handed to you if you are caught.
If I were caught, I would first offer a nice chunk of change.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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I also happen to know the Rock & Ice staff fairly well. Jeff Jackson is without a doubt the nicest guy that I've ever met. A good writer to boot.
All of this "I don't read the rags anymore" is almost synonymous with the phrase, "I don't climb anymore." Anyone who is climbing hard reads the mags, and they have taken Rock & Ice to the top. Climbing mag is the one that was bought by a big corporation. The main crew at Climbing all quit at once and then pooled their money to buy Rock & Ice. They mortgaged their houses and bet the farm, so they damn sure do care about the magazine.
I rarely read it, but it is because I'm old, fat, and don't climb anymore.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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"Unbiased journalisim is a contradiction of terms."
Hunter S Thompson
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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Amen, Jaybro. If they had any pretense to being unbiased they would voluntarily refrain from using adjectives and adverbs.
"Just the facts, ma'am"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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The climbing world has always been big enough to hold all opinions, included the ones stated here. As I have said for years - having known all the people involved with the mags - the publication is only as good as the contributions. If you disagree or want to improve the thing, contribute and do us all proud. Lobbing bombs from the sidelines feels passive aggressive to me, especially when personal issues are driving things.
Also, there are many ways to look at something. The evidence against the ranger chopping the anchor is much more than what was presented and is pretty harrowing if you know the whole story. Likewise, just because some land manager declares a ban on bolting in the entire Red Rocks, those not heeding the decree are "criminals" to some and just climbers to others. These are all just words, depending on your title.
Climbers have always considered themselves the last word on what is good and not so good about land management issues. What you have there is a control issue and those with an authority streak will always side with the feds - others, not so much. Seeking a sober, rational relationship with the feds on this account has always been a thorny issue - not because of prickly climbers, but because the feds loath being questioned, and especially hate being singled out for, say, destroying a rappel anchor.
What you see at play here is human nature, having little to nothing to do with journalism.
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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I agree with John Long. The article about climbing on the Rez talks about what is unfolding now that there are a few Navajo climbers and that some "land owners" are giving "permission" to climb a few of the taboo towers. This is what is going on currently. This may or may not piss off some people; both Navajos and off Rez climbers. You may or may not agree with what is going on currently on the Rez. Reading the article doesn't necessarily mean that climbers will flock to the area to climb. Maybe this article will set things back years as far as policy and the Navajo Nation;....maybe it will bring about awareness and change and open things up some.....who knows?......Irresponsible journalism?....I think not;.....Jason is just talking about a real place that exists and what is going on now-a-days. Like it or not;..it's real and it exists. Are there problems out there....you bet. It's not a place for pussies. There are climbing access issues, bad rock, shitty roads, foul weather, bad anchors, wild Indians, booze, wind, cold, blazing heat, isolation, sketchy pro, lack of climbing beta, no climbing gyms, no climbing stores, no
Starbucks, no McDonalds or Walmarts (not enough)..........no wonder I like climbing out there so much;..it's got all MY favorite things........
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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CRUSHER: your book is such an amazing gathering of historical info, in Canada we have "Pushing the Limits' as our pride and joy for a hardcover heirloom.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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You're right they don't like whitey.
When I was there they thought Kauk and my wife Merry were Indians so they loved them and I was the the white nigger ......
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Totally off topic, but i just had to expand on this a little.
Feeding pot to 3-year-olds? On the face of it this is criminal and totally immoral. And yet....
The low thc strains they are feeding these kids contain high levels of cannabinol which is what helps these poor kids lead a more normal life. Without the harsh side effects of pharmaceuticals.
As far as r&i goes, overhyping things is a standard way to sell them. Seems like a pretty standard tactic these days. Doesn't make it right, by any means, but all the cool kids are doing it!! Lol
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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Base 104- good points on the worthiness of Rock and Ice. It sounds as though it has changed a lot since I used to read it. I just remember the "Schlock and Vice" days and I shiver. Time flies...
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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OTE: Thank you for posting these regulations:
SPECIAL NOTE TO ALL VISITORS AND TOURISTS
All areas on the Navajo Nation are closed to non-Navajos unless you have a valid camping, hiking or backcountry permit issued by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Department or other duly delegated tribal authority. Failure to have a permit is considered Trespassing on a Federal Indian Reservation.
DO NOT desecrate Navajo lands and violate the trust of Navajo people by discarding cremated human remains on tribal property. Please respect tribal beliefs.
NO ROCK CLIMBING or BASE JUMPING on Navajo Land. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb the Monuments. “Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue,” Parks Department Manager.
http://navajonationparks.org/permits.htm
Thanks Rick D. for sharing that from the 1971 magazine about the ban on climbing. I remember Layton telling me that he was caught climbing Spider Rock (probably around '62 - help me out Crusher). The Ranger was not all that happy with the ascent.
Anyway, I came across this from my nearly 25 year old, much loved and well-thumbed through copy of "How to Rock Climb", by John Long (page 151):
"As climbing moves into the 1990s and beyond, one of the biggest problems confronting all climbers is access to the cliffs. The loss of access to climbing or bouldering areas is an issue that affects every climber, regardless of technical ability or stylistic preference. The responsibility for solving or preventing access problems likewise rests with each and every climber. Minimizing environmental impact which could affect access will help prevent problems"... (Goes on to support the newly created Access Fund).
I would be curious if the author / photographer of said article promoting climbing on the Navajo Nation went through the proper channels to achieve permits, permission, etc. If they did not, I hope they are prosecuted to the full extent of Tribal Law. If they did secure access through the legal channels, more power to them.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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I worked quite a bit with Fred White and the Codetalkers during the 2002 Winter Olympics. If climbers interested in the Rez could find a way to make it extremely profitable for the residents to allow climbing on some towers -- Spider Rock will always be off-limits, too much history and NPS involvement -- things could be legally and openly climbed next week. It wasn't all that long ago that the Eiger Sanction got filmed, right?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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Good point BVB, the elders and their traditions are dying off. The younger folks in many instances are more inclined to follow new Western traditions (i.e. materialism, money, fame, narcissism, etc).
Throw some money at those Injuns, tell them they will be in a video, magazine, or even your blog, they will be all over it. Tell them they could be famous!
For you sensitive folks, the above sentences were an attempt at sarcasm (a form of humor).
(edited to change they to them)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
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Good point BVB, the elders and their traditions are dying off. The younger folks in many instances are more inclined to follow new Western traditions (i.e. materialism, money, fame, narcissism, etc).
Throw some money at those Injuns, tell them they will be in a video, magazine, or even your blog, they will be all over it. Tell they they could be famous!
I don't imagine it's about being famous. My belief is it's about economic development, decent health and dental, lower infant mortality rates, and getting a handle on their staggering diabetes statistics. The young'uns simply want some of the things us Bilagáanas take for granted.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
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If you disagree or want to improve the thing, contribute and do us all proud. Lobbing bombs from the sidelines feels passive aggressive to me, especially when personal issues are driving things.
What John said.
If you think journalism has gone to sh#t, and you long for the good old days of great writing and shining honesty, then stop whining and f*#king do something.
But good luck, because those "good old days" never actually existed. If you think responsible reporting is scarce now, just go back in time.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
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Fair enough, bvb. Most of the young Dineh (Navajo) I've met want to assimilate into Western culture. I am grateful to know a number of Dineh young and old who respect their elders and the ancient traditions. We "white folks" have been dissing this culture for at least 150 years, it is no wonder the young folks are confused.
I believe this discussion is about respecting the local laws of the land. As I understand it when I read their regulations, climbing or hiking or camping on the Navajo Reservation requires a permit. Much like climbing or hiking or camping in a National Park requires a permit. If a magazine is promoting breaking the local law, however nebulous these laws may be, then it seems said magazine should be held accountable? Just curious.
It was suggested earlier that the magazines are only as good as the contributions and that those of us on the sidelines are just hucking loogies (or something to that effect). I've got some great story ideas for Rock and Ice magazine, including:
"Top Ten ways to get around the Peregrine Closure at Your Local Crag".
"How to Break into Your National Parks during a Government Shutdown."
"Sneaksters guide to using a power drill in your local Wilderness Area"
"Endangered Plants on your local crag? We have the solution: Wire brush and Roundup"
Think those would sell? Could I make $50 ???
hey Hankster, some base jumper just died near the Confluence (jumping off Navajo land), just a few miles from where another died some 15 months ago or so. I'm wondering how all of these deaths (and expensive taxpayer paid rescues) will effect BASE and other activities on the Rez.
(see the Aviation thread for a link to the recent death)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:23am PT
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Are you talking about the confluence with the Green and the Colorado? That is NPS land. Right in the middle of Canyonlands NP. Not legal.
This is really about respect. It sounds weird to ask permission and offer money, but money is very short on the res.
The old BASE jumping that went on then was certainly enjoyed by the Navajo. One of the few jobs is being a guide for whitey who wants to enter Canyon de Chelly.
My advice is to find out who owns the land and then pay them, even if on the sly. Leave a couple of C-notes under a rock or something.
They don't like the NPS any more than we do, that much was obvious during the years that we jumped legally in there. We used to pay our guide 150/day back in the 80's. With inflation that would be at least double. We split it 4 ways, so it wasn't a great deal.
It was the park service who shut down jumping in the Canyon...NOT the Navajo. We were always super respectful, and as I said earlier, we were invited into homes and treated like supermen or something. They loved the jumping.
I'll never forget that old woman in her recliner next to a fire while we jumped the cliff above her tiny cornfield, or having our guide show us all of the nooks and crannies as we scouted and jumped other sites than the really choice one that Hank is probably talking about.
And never bring booze onto the res. Alcoholism is rampant, and if you bring any in, you can go to jail and make everyone else look bad.
This is just a bad case of crossed wires. I see no reason why climbing and jumping couldn't go on there...out in the open.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:28am PT
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Back to the topic of magazines, I am great friends with Duane Raleigh, and have met Jeff Jackson enough to know him fairly well. Jeff is without a doubt one of the best people I've ever met. He is the one who really runs Rock & Ice, now, as far as the content goes.
I was sipping scotch one night with Duane, and he said that they were always desperate for climbers to submit material. You don't have to be a great writer, just tell a good story and let the editors clean it up.
No lie. They don't want to write the whole mag. They are always looking for new material from outside.
So if you have a good story, particularly one that is relevant in today's climbing world, then write it up and send it in. The best climbing writing has always been written by climbers.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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Last year I wrote a how-to article about bagging FAs in the desert.
Although they said it was well written R&I rejected it because they said their readership wasn't interested in putting up routes.
(!!!!!?????????!?!?!??)
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:05am PT
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I wonder where they got that information from. It can't be right?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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You know, I've been sitting on an article I wrote. Maybe it's time to send it in.
"Advanced Techniques for the Gym - How to flag your left leg for style and success"
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weezy
climber
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:25am PT
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This thread is a supertaco curmugeon's wet dream! White-knighting for the Navajo nation and a "the mags suck!" circlejerk jerk all rolled into one.
Well, done gentlemen!
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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I thought the article was a fair representation of the current situation. It was not irresponsible in any way.
(And if they wanted to sell more magazines, it worked, in at least one case.)
Which is better, the status quo "don't ask, don't tell" or beginning a dialog? Even if it all backfires and the ban is more strictly enforced, at least we'll know.
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Joshua Johnson
Boulder climber
Boulder
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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Don't ask, don't tell, don't spray on the internet.
Pretty simple actually.
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weezy
climber
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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Quentin Tutt posts here as Q75 or something. Also, another Rez climber named Alexander Pina also posts here infrequently. They both posted in a shiprock thread a while back. Hopefully they'll post up an informed insider's view here.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
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I have about as much respect for Indian religions, beliefs, and sacred areas as I have for the Bible. If you wanna believe in magic in the 21st century thats your business. With that said, follow the rules, respect the land managers, work with the system, or f*#k it up for future generations of climbers.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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you have my permission
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
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Hello everyone!
there is alot of controversy over climbing on the rez that is true. but there is some light at the end of the tunnel! This past year as been great for promise of future climbing on the rez. Our own leaders have (prez office) have opened their doors to us and have made time to meet and discuss this issue. WE all see it as a positive activity that will only benefit the Navajo Nation. We are working to get some of these grey legal issues clarified. That is why Navajo Nation is in partnership with Dine Coalition of Rock Climbers as well as other organization that support our endeavor. It is only through these programs (youth groups and health organizations)that make this possible. SO WE DO HAVE SUPPORT! Jason hit it on the head..and opened a topic that is worth visiting..
And Todd you said it right! "It's not a place for pussies" so stay home!!
also this is our homeland..it has bee sacred since our native people existed....we are within the four sacred mountains.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
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thank you for chiming in!
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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back to the original question...No, R&I has no obligations to report on something so subjective as climbing ethics. Talk about both sides and then take no stance.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 31, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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No lie. They don't want to write the whole mag. They are always looking for new material from outside.
They surely don't want to redo everyone's work but nowadays writing is widely considered an amateur kind of thing with all the blogging and so forth and many of the professional avenues have shut down. So you end up with trip reports and self-absorbed blurbs or twitter rants - but rarely any narrative writing, because they takes a long time to churn out, even for pros.
What's more, most leading climbers got sponsored right out of high school and never went to college so the chance of suave articles coming from that group is pretty remote.
You can fault the mags, but there are many factors at play in the downward trajectory. But there is still some excellent stuff out there and some talented folks. Why not add your voice to the mix if the issue is really that dear to you?
JL
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jan 31, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
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Why not add your voice to the mix if the issue is really that dear to you?
I did, in a well thought out "Letter" that was to be a rebuttal to a piece written about Yosemite "Ethics".
JJ pulled 2 sentences out, and put it into the "comments" section.
I specifically told him, to use the letter in whole. He never contacted me and basically did what he wanted.
He protected the author of the original piece.
Keep up the good work JJ
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weezy
climber
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Jan 31, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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thank you for your response, alexander.
cheers from two hours north!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 31, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
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Hey Alexander Pina,
thanks for your input!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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Alexander, that is some hopeful news. I wonder whether there has been any
talk amongst you guys of some sort of rez-wide position on bolting, especially
Bosch-powered, if and when things open up?
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weezy
climber
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Jan 31, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
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you guys are begging for water from a poison well
it's all choss down there, every last bit
sand in your eyes, sand in your mouth, sand in your pants
bad anchors, shitty pro, nasty approaches
wide cracks and chimneys and poor bolt ladders
cats and dogs living together
no chicks in sports bras warming up on your project
no point in even going there at all
just go to the creek instead
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Jan 31, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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Yes most areas are choss n crumbly... but there are more than a few hidden gems that are unknown which leaves the goods stuff UNKNOWN and for the locals enjoyment.. well any way its not for everyone for sure. I did not grow up here but this is where i a have made my roots and i love it here..so this is an invite to adventurous...come check it out!
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Jan 31, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
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I am Navajo..bro! of course I'm a gooder advocate for my lands!!..:) Navajo joke buddies!
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Jan 31, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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but as for the whole tribe of course not...i am only one strong voice amongst many...
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 31, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
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BASE104 The wing suit fatality I mentioned was near the Confluence of the Colorado River and LIttle Colorado River, in the Grand Canyon (but on land accessed from and claimed by the Navajo Nation). The people who enjoy hurling themselves off cliffs have been slamming this area, as evidenced by two fatalities in the last 15 months or so. Also, some morons did a jump near sunset, without knowing the hike out and were rescued at taxpayer expense by a DPS helicopter. I recall that an officer from the Navajo police hiked down and showed them the way out.
Thanks for piping in Alexander Pina. Was that you sitting on a bouldering pad in one of those movies that Burr made about his radness? Just curious.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 31, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Thanks for all that Alexander Pina!
Dingus, where did you get that Rock and Ice info?
Is their target Demographic really " men only"?
That would explain a lot.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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JL,
ME write? What about?
Duane has already stolen all of my good stories, inflated them a little, and now I can't show it to my family.
I think that there are a lot of people who could write. A lot of the great Yosemite Literature from the Golden Age is priceless, and many of them didn't go to or finish college.
I have been threatening to write a tell all book covering everything from climbing and jumping to high power rocketry.
It shall be called: Strange F*#kers I Have Known.
It will be a best seller. Just gotta remember to never use semicolons.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
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Albatross:
OK. I know the site. Unfortunately BASE is now something that everybody knows about, and the number of jumpers has been rising exponentially.
Getting killed is the worst PR of all. The wingsuit craze has people dying nigh daily.
As for the wankers who had to be rescued, they were ripped a new as#@&%e for calling in a rescue. They were idiots. Unfortunately there is no way to weed people like that out. It was easier to control when there were only 20 active jumpers on the planet.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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Climbing on the Rez;......Arachnid Buttress, Canyon De Chelly....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:51pm PT
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Buzzworm Arch, Chinle, Arizona...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Round Rock, Chinle Spire, Round Rock, Arizona
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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Arachnid Buttress......we needed more than 8 quick draws to complete our ascent.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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Basecamp for Los Gigantos.....Round Rock, Arizona.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
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Home sweet home when I lived on the Rez..........($15 a month....).....but no running water or flat screen TV......Lukachukai, Arizona 6,550' elevation. 1701 population. Median family income; $11,250
62% of people lived below poverty level.......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
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Spider Rock
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
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spider Rock.....Chinle/Tsaile, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
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My neighbor, Tyler
Lukachukai, Arizona....
.....Thanks to my bros Quintin and Alex for keeping it real...I hope we are moving towards more freedom to explore and climb on the Rez;...it's a magical place.....big thanks to the handful of Navajo climbers who are working to make this happen;.....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
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Those are awesome photos Todd. And I don't throw that word around much.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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The Pole
(Thanks, BVB;...the American Legend.......you know that neck of the woods well.......it IS magic...)..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
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Going my way?.......Rock Point, Arizona...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
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Spider Rock, pitch one....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
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Dave Evans near the top of Arachnid Mesa, Canyon de Chelly. His eyes are red from the chlorine in the pool.....(really.....)......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
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Poor Gumby;.....stuck forever on top of The Pope, Round Rock area, Ariz.....wedged behind a 12" nail....(part of the anchor on one of the raps)..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
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The natives...(and teachers ) are restless. Lukachukai, Arizona...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
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Psyching up for the Totem Pole......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
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Hipster fancy-ass Rez climber in his fancy-ass expensive clothes.....
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
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Todd,
What are your thoughts on an influx of climbers on the Rez? Should hundreds of hommies head out there for several weeks long climbing trips bagging all those sweet spires?
From what I've been reading in the mags, climbing regs have been relaxed out there? I saw some vimeo videos about some radical dudes just cranking the gnarls!!
Do you think that the fact you were mostly climbing out there 25 years ago (when there were hundreds of thousands less climbers around) and that you worked out there helping the locals had anything to do about your access privileges? Or should we just drive up to the nearest hogan and offer them a can of Ranch Beans and $10, would that help secure permission?
Just curious,
Albert
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
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I climbed out there alot through the 80s and 90s....I had fun;.....but it's not the sort of climbing that appeals to many;......Who knows what the future holds for climbing on the Rez.....it's been super "restricted" for a long time now. I seriously doubt if there will be a mass invasion of climbers to the Rez........maybe more climbers interested in climbing on the Rez will encourage the Navajo Nation leaders to start thinking about opening up the Reservation to some climbing possiblities........I sure hope so...that would be cool.......climbers climb elsewhere in the Southwest;...why not on the Rez......
I also think with some Navajo climbers "stirring the pot" .....so to speak;...this is a new game;......I personally think it's a great time to make some changes about climbing on the Reservation!......We can only hope for the best, Albert;....it's a big mystery as of now.....with Quinton and Alex and others at the helm.......I think the future of climbing on the Rez looks good!....I'm psyched and hopeful!....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
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Local hopeful.....
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 31, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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Thanks for the reply Todd.
I like crappy rock, too. Thank goodness most climbers don't like to hike, don't like to be cold or hot or thirsty or eat sand, and prefer rock that can take a decent bolt that might hold a fall. Those factors are the best protection for areas like the Rez. That is not to mention the exploding handholds and super soft rock.
I sincerely hope that scammers like Jeff Jackson and his minions at R&I don't screw it up for everyone with their dramatic headlines. I believe persons who publish this sort of garbage that encourages illicit climbing activity do a serious disservice to the world climbing community. I try to understand that narcissist's like that are just doing whatever, anything, it takes to make a dollar (and perhaps some publicity and a few hits on the blog or youtube).
A couple decades ago I was scouting some bouldering potential perhaps 40 miles NE of Flag on the Rez. We found some interesting rock and as we were leaving a local drove up on a 4-wheeler with a shotgun strapped on the front. He made it clear we should make our way back to the truck as quick as possible. I suspect he thought we were artifact hunters, but you never know, maybe he was doing some gardening back there? Either way, it was an eye opener and made me realize that perhaps I should be a little more careful and considerate in my exploits on this sovereign nation.
I hope people understand that these desert wastelands are communities of sorts and that some families have been living in these areas for tens of generations. The few persons I have been fortunate enough to meet that still live the traditional ways have an entirely different view of the earth than us white folks. While some people have made their way into these spots (legally or illegally, still waiting for an answer) we all need to remember that being on the Navajo Nation is not like roaming around on USFS or BLM or even NPS land.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Well said, Albert. Time will tell what will become of climbing and climbers on the Reservation. Where we are at now aint' so bad a spot;.....a few Navajo climbers testing their skills and heuvos in thier own backyards, some outsiders climbing certain towers with permission from "landowners" and caretakers, and some wild ones visiting the Rez and rolling the dice against the elements, the stone and The Man........seems like a healthy balance and something for the few who find themselves inclined to "get down to the business " on a Navajo desert tower.
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weezy
climber
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wow, todd! TFPU!!
great photos!
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Gordon goodkarma bump for the best photos in a bit.
the two-horse blue mesa, the smiling navajo boy, the hippy and the sandstone.
Gordon, you are the chit. Thanks for sharing.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dave Evans;...sandstone connoisseur........Round Rock, Ariz.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Point taken, Ron.
I agree that there's been long history of "negotiations" between Anglos and the Dine. Historically, the anglos have had the money, guns, accountants and lawyers to get the better end of the bargain. The tribes, historically, could barely understand/read whatever treaties they were told they had to sign.
But this is changing and has been for some time. In the 1970s the first generation of college educated Native Americans graduated college.
For several decades now, there are increasing numbers of Native America lawyers, writers, accountants. The tribes are generating money from gambling and tourism, they have their own lawyers/accountants--experts--who can understand the fine print and create much better, fairer outcomes in modern "negotiations" with Anglos.
How does this affect climbing?
In the past, negotiations over climbing access on the rez have been very much a Navajo vs anglo affair. The heavy shadow of 150 years of bad-faith treaties and abuse always colors negotiations. No one on the rez has had much idea about what climbing is, what it might mean to an individual, how it's done, what impacts it might have (and even how it's changed from the 1960s when Fred Beckey and Layton Kor used to hammer pitons all over). We can make claims about low impact, or respect, or safety, but why should we be believed?
But now we have Navajos who enjoy climbing. I think that is very cool. It also means that the tribe now has members--people they can trust--who are knowledgable about what climbing is, how it's done, what impacts it has.
That right there, and in the future, is a game changer.
Not because climbing access might get easier but because the tribe can better understand what's at stake in any future climbing access negotiations.
Worthy of an article in Rock & Ice, I reckon.
Best of luck to Alex Pina and his friends.
ps. Hey Alex. I wrote a book about the history of climbing in the desert, which involves, as it had to, some of the history of climbers on the rez. Send me an email: click on "crunch" on the left, send me an email with your address and I'll send you a copy.
Crusher
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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You have to treat the res like it is private land with an owner. The owner is the tribe, and ask permission.
Normally with BASE it was the other way around:
It is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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My Navajo climbing buddy Francis;......he lives in Yucca Valley, but lived and worked in Canyon de Chelly........another Navajo climber;.......getting after it.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Look what those dang Indians did in MY neighborhood;........talk about leaving a mess..........sheeeh......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Navajo sport climbing rack.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Arachnid Mesa;....9 pitches.......hasn't had a 2nd ascent in 30 years....
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Todd, you just have to stop!!!! (I wanna climb some of those
places sooooo much)!!!!1
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dave Evans on The Pope;......Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Did some bike touring on the Rez too......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Checking my email from the summit of the Totem Pole...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Long approach to the Chile hospital crags...
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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TG just made this thread awesome.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Venus Needle (cover of the Rock and Ice)......Jason started it.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I adopted a few dogs on the REz.......feeding time at the Gordon Hogan...
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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Rez dogs!
Nice Todd
The little fat one is awesome
Where we are at now aint' so bad a spot;.....a few Navajo climbers testing their skills and heuvos in thier own backyards, some outsiders climbing certain towers with permission from "landowners" and caretakers, and some wild ones visiting the Rez and rolling the dice against the elements, the stone and The Man........seems like a healthy balance and something for the few who find themselves inclined to "get down to the business " on a Navajo desert tower.
Yep that's great. Take the RnI article out of the equation and you have something marginally sustainable, perhaps even progressive. With it though....
Maybe climbers should just know better than to run their mouths to RnI if they're going to be like this. Is the fame/notoriety/small paycheck worth it?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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road side craggin....The Whale and the tail.......Rock Point, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Base of Arachnid on the FA;...ready for big fun........(three days, two bivys) Brian Povolny, Dave Evans..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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First Ascent, Lucky Strike Spire, Chinle, Ariz.....(another 10 sec. approach to the crags...)...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Are we ready for a change?.....I think so...and I hope so......I think it's time to re-think climbing on the Rez........
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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Mind-blowing geology, and pics Todd
Let's start our own religion, where climbing rocks is sacred.
We have to summit to high-five Jesus, who is waiting on top.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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One of my Navajo pals Henry Thompson on the FA of Rock Point Spire , Rock Point, Ariz...)........
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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checking out some Anasazi grafetti;......the moki steps were too scary for us without a rope.........Many Farms, Ariz.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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While I always enjoy TG's images, they are from a time before the internet and may be not relevant to today. I have been on the rez and asked locals about permission and have been denied. There are more locked gates, more closed roads, and more fences in the last 15 years (my first trips were 1988). Some friends last year were told 'don't come back until the ranger says it is ok'- this was miles and miles west of monument valley in BFE.
Alex and Quentin may have a positive impact on future climbing on the rez but we do not know yet. Redbull,IBM, Hollywood, and a few others have done what they want but it has involved cash. To ask climbers for cash for a permit may be the next step but this could become expensive. I know for pretty much certain monument valley and canyon de chelly are going to be off limits (google earth has clouds over monument valley on close up!).
In the end the best policy is not to talk about fight club.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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rickd......"Don't talk about fight club"....probably best, huh.....
For me, I haven't climbed on the Rez in a decade or so.......I might be done;........but;....you never know.......
Dave Evans .......9 rappels off Arachnid Mesa....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Here is how to find desert towers......yeah......
Los Gigantos, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Near many Farms, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dead Horse Spire, Chinle, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Bentwood Spire.....Many Farms, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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King on his Throne, Monument Valley, Ariz/Utah..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Chinle Spire, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Cyndie Bransford at the Buzz Worm Arch, Chinle, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Lucky Strike Spire, Chinle, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Chinle Hospital Crags, Chinle, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The Pope, Round Rock,.....Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Totem Pole, Yei Bei Cheis, Mon. Valley, Ariz/Utah
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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King on the Throne, Stagecoach, Bear and Rabbit, Shang-gri-la, Monument Valley, Ariz/Utah.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Los Gigantos, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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Hello All!
I finally got thru. I totally forgot I had this account so thanks to Weezy for reminding me.
Also thanks to Todd Gordon for informing me about this ongoing thread.
Thanks too to Alex Pina for your input as well.
I'm on my mobile device and am glad to take questions and concerns but wont reply until tomorro on my lappy top.
With all I've read, I'd like to express a big thank you to Mr. Jason Haas for his submitted story and not giving up for it was turned down by another magazine. If it weren't for him having the right attitude and nerve, I wouldn't be here replying to all you fine folks.
I'm the injun that guided Mr. Haas and others around here on our reservation. All the climbs we did, I sought out permission for every one. I also welcomed them in my home as well as to our ranch and as they know, they are and will always be welcomed back for future adventures.
I want to put all this speculations to rest as well. I am not affiliated with any authoritative body of our tribal government except that I am a registered member of the tribe.
Let me begin by stating that I am a fellow rock climber. I enjoy being out where nobody dare hoes or where the few have gone. Even though a member of my tribe released a statement in the past regarding a no climbing rule, I only took that for our parks overseen by the Navajo Parks and Recreation Dept so yes, even for me, I will not attempt Spider Rock or anything in Monument Valley. I will though keep trying to get legal passage to those arras but for now, I have enough respect for the wishes by my tribe as well as fellow members of my tribe.
With that stated and as far as I'm concerned, everything is fair game. I do have permission granted by grazing right holders and chapters so with that on my side, I feel that gives me all the access I'll ever need.
Also, in continuing with what my friend and climbing partner Alex stated, we are awaiting the official hard copy of the OK by the current tribal administration in which we had been given an approval to get some of us Diné certified by the AMGA. My only hope is that the release of the current R&I magazine doesn't do more harm than good. I am only here because ROCK CLIMBING SAVED MY LIFE along with my faith but I won't get into that part but let it be known that this kind of activity is definitely an alternative to all the negatives that members of my tribe get caught up in. I desire to get our Navajo tribe to recognize that this is a healthy outlet especially for our youth.
Again, I hope this clarifies some of the questions and rants.
Also, in reference to what Mr. Gordon might have stated, the type of climbing our reservation offers is definitely not for the faint of heart or anyone just starting out. This big boy shizz and we a the Navajo want to keep it that way so leave all your bolts, hammer drill as well as lawn lamps at home. We don't want them nor do we need anymore adjustments to some real adventure climbing.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Quentin throws it down....thank you, sir, for sharing, your hard work to open things up a bit, your welcome arms to the climbing community, your passion for climbing, your passion for helping the Navajo youth, and for keeping it real;.....I look forward to climbing w/you some day, my brother.
Chinle Spire, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Greig Arch, Cove, New Mexico
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Todd those are some awesome photos. How fortunate you have been to know and love the Dineh and experience it in such sacred places. I imagine you made some special friendships during that time.
I believe it would be an intriguing addition to Colorado Plateau climbing if limited, permitted, paid access was available to a few of the spires. But only if this was a even a consideration of the Navajo Nations' residents and the local chapter houses. Maybe a part of the agreement could be that we keep it off sites such as MP, and the magazines and blogs, while limiting the move by move, this cam here, that cam there, watch out 4' runout, sort of descriptions. Maybe keep one last place a tiny bit wild. We're running out of that sort of wilderness and it's all our fault.
Rack: Standard Desert
I have to emphasize this is a delicate proposal. We all need to understand we are dealing with a culture that is historically quite different from us of Western European ancestry. This culture, this nation, these people, this land, is very much worthy of our respect . From my limited perspective, these people have a deep spiritual connection with the land in which they live. A spirituality so genuine and complete that is near incomprehensible for those of us chasing the American Dream. We need to dig deep and we need to pay attention if we are to start barging into these peoples homes.
I'm going to admit it, R&I will have sold another issue as a result of this discussion.
And when I show the magazine to my Navajo brothers it will be with painful shame because I know they will be hurt to see this sort of exploitation of their sacred homeland. We have been throwing our culture into their face for generations, perhaps it is time we show these people some respect and honor.
Edit to add: Q75 I must have been typing while you posted.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Leave it to the Arson to throw in some wise cracks. One hint, develop your trolls, your visions, a little deeper and you'd get more positive feedback.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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rSin wrote:
making as if increased climbers into the territory
the spending of paltry moneys
is a benefit
is like the rapist bragging about
paying long enough on the room
for the girl could take a shower after
There you go. I am seeing your writing on the virtual wall. Thank you rSin.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Q75!
TFPU and offering your perspective
Glad you started climbing and that it's been a positive influence on your life. It has been for me as well.
Since we have you here, I'm just wondering how you felt Jason's article was presented by RnI and whether or not you agree with this presentation. If not, what do you feel could have been done differently to more accurately describe current conditions on the Rez?
What ARE current conditions there? Are we good to hit you up and accompany you on some spires? Would anyone take offense to it? Would it be legal? Morally acceptable?
For me the article raised more questions than it answered. But it did open a discussion about this topic, which I'm guessing was Jason's intent. Appreciate that. I also enjoyed reading about you and your family and I wish the best for all of you no matter how this all turns out,
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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My friends live in an area called Black Mesa, a place where a massive coal formation was found sometime in the last half century. It's too complicated to get into right now, but basically they have been kicked off their ancestral home because there is a massive open pit coal mine munching its way towards their living space. This coal goes to the Navajo Generating Station in Page to produce electricity for many of us on this site. These families have been resisting relocation for over forty years. (Edit to add: not to mention relocation / genocide type efforts for the last 150+ years).
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Thank you for the thumbs up on the pics, Albert. I know you have strong feelings about climbing (and not climbing ) on the Navajo Reservation. I did climb alot there, but it was more like 30 years ago. I feel that Quentin and Alex are better qualified to field your questions and inquires, and they can give you some insight on what is happening today with climbing on the Rez and what is their vision and hopes for future climbing on the Rez..........I can talk about "back in the day" and I can talk of my experiences I had while living on the Reservation;....but as rick d noted;....it's probably a bit outdated and may be way off with what is happening today.
Side note;......I was very fortunate to have had some awesome and wild adventures on the Navajo Indian Reservation;...some of the greatest experiences in my life, no doubt. ,....but it wasn't all fun and games. Teaching and life on the Rez is tough. I made big sacrifices when I left my family and friends. I also saw some nasty ass things related to the poverty and alcoholism that goes on out there;....That being said....I love the place.,,it's magic...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dave Evans just below the summit of The Pope, Round Rock , Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Inside of my hogan..........nice place to bring a date........
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WBraun
climber
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Looks killer inside, Todd.
Much better than any van.
Plus it's so peaceful out there and worth it's weight in gold ......
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all... lots of stuff shared here, and things to think about and learn, and stories special to you all...
thanks for sharing...
todd--such lovely photos, it makes you feel good, just looking at them--good rocks and dirt making lovely art... thanks so very much...
thank you to alexander pina and Q-75 for sharing here...
todd:
as to this:
Side note;......I was very fortunate to have had some awesome and wild adventures on the Navajo Indian Reservation;...some of the greatest experiences in my life, no doubt. ,....but it wasn't all fun and games. Teaching and life on the Rez is tough. I made big sacrifices when I left my family and friends. I also saw some nasty ass things related to the poverty and alcoholism that goes on out there;....That being said....I love the place.,,it's magic...
nice share, again, todd... shows 'life among the lovely rocks' that many folks in the world, do not see...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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King on his throne, Ariz/Utah border
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Venus Needle......Sawmill, N.Mex.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Bluff Cliffs, Bluff, Ariz/Utah border
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Grieg Arch, Cove, New Mexico
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Cleopatra's Needle, Cove, New Mexico
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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( I was going to post some Cleo photos but the photo uploader giving strange microsoft silerlight error messages?)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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John;....got any bear and rabbit pics?..
Rock Pt. spire, rock pt. Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Arachnid Mesa, Canyon de Chelly, Chinle, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Butt shot, Chinle Hospital Crags, Chinle, Ariz. Climber;..Dr.Brian Povolny
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Pushing the haulbag up a 200'wide crack on Arachnid Mesa, Canyon de Chelly, Chinle, Ariz.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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You've got the eye Todd.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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A drilled angle, 12" nail, and a gumby;.....now THAT is a proper anchor.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Near Many Farms, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Los Gigantos area, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Three sister, Tribal Loop, Monument Valley, Ariz/Utah border
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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the Whale, Rock Point, Ariz.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Todd thanking you for sharing those pics. That sure lots like some crappy rock in many of those photos. In the end this rock quality is what may save the area from being overrun by climbers.
Rick thanks for sharing those insights from your experiences with 25 years climbing in this area. I love the Fight Club rule.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Albert;....I believe you are correct;......poor rock quality will always limit the climbers here to a select few........how about this anchor;....3' long pieces of rebar..........(backed up by a crappy Knifeblade for good luck).....
Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Spider Rock and Arachnid from the air (I got my pilot's license at age 20;........)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Los Gigantos, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Cleo,......Sawmill, N. Mex.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Big roof pitch on The Pope, Round Rock, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Totem Pole bivy;........pipe loads for the full psyche.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dave Evans at the four knifeblade belay/rap station.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Near Many Farms, Ariz.....nice blue sky;..after work craggin.......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Why don't we just leave the Indians in peace for once?
Edit: Not directed at you specifically Todd, but the climbing community in general.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The Pope, Round Rock area, Ariz.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Summit of the Totem Pole.
(Of all the problems on the Reservations in American today, I think climbing "issues" is down the list a ways;...like maybe at the bottom of the list.....at least pretty weak sauce compared to some of the other challenges faced by the Navajo tribe and tribes across America......
There are real issues of alcoholism, education, drugs, violence, diet, teen pregnancies, suicides, depression, child abuse, etc;...it's a long and real list........I moved out there to tackle some of the real issues.......If ya wanna help out the Navajo people;.....there is not a shortage of opportunities to help out;....I say "Go for "..........actions speak louder words.......).......I think climbers often think their world is so important and front page and relevant to everyone else;.......most people probably could give a crap about our lame-o antics at the crags;.........It's all about your take on life, isn't it;.....some say leave the Indians alone;...I say embrace the Indians and leave the climbers alone.......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Awesome......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Quentin and Alex and friends.......climb your rocks and be brave;...(I know you will.........bring a jacket, a headlamp, and a helmet....)....
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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"Q75!
TFPU and offering your perspective
Glad you started climbing and that it's been a positive influence on your life. It has been for me as well.
Since we have you here, I'm just wondering how you felt Jason's article was presented by RnI and whether or not you agree with this presentation. If not, what do you feel could have been done differently to more accurately describe current conditions on the Rez?
What ARE current conditions there? Are we good to hit you up and accompany you on some spires? Would anyone take offense to it? Would it be legal? Morally acceptable?
For me the article raised more questions than it answered. But it did open a discussion about this topic, which I'm guessing was Jason's intent. Appreciate that. I also enjoyed reading about you and your family and I wish the best for all of you no matter how this all turns out,"
In response to the originator of this thread, Fluffy:
Fluffy,
The release of this story was really not expected by myself. I knew Jason had written something and had submitted to another magazine, in which they began asking questions with those that are of an authoritative position (i.e. Navajo Parks and Recreation Dept., Navajo Nation Museum, Navajo Police, etc.) and with the answers they got from them, they dropped the story. After doing so, I still had interest in it but as I recall mentioning it to Jason, he expressed that he was simply 'burned out' on it and therefore, I assumed it was just a thing of the past so I also too moved on from it.
Then in December 2013, he remarked about this coming out and R&I had taken it and published it, so at that point I was a little surprised that he still was pursuing it's publication.
It also made me a bit nervous, as we've been working along side some other outside resources that are trying to get 10 of us Dine' (Navajo) climbers a single pitch certification through the AMGA. I also put together the Dine' (Navajo) Climbers Coalition on Facebook to get more support and also just to unite us as climbers, on the reservation and off. The outfit we are working with is Four Rivers Institute, a non-profit organization based out of Durango, CO by Jason Hotchkiss, in which provides outdoor centered activities available to the Native American Youth. They provide outing such as white water rafting along with rock climbing, so they asked us along with support from the American Alpine Club and the Access Fund to try and get support from our very own tribe. So with all this in the works, mainly by my friend Alex Pina and with Jason Hotchkiss, they submitted a letter to gain support from the Navajo Nation Vice President's Office. As far as I know, just before Christmas, I was told that we did get the approval, which the new also made a great Christmas gift to us as partners through the Dine' Coalition. As of this day, we still haven't received the actual document from the VP's office and I also hope that they hadn't changed their minds, especially after this all came out in the magazine. I also am not too worried about it but I do hope that they remain true to their words and continue to give us the support to get this all going.
I do this for not only myself but for our youth, who are the future of our tribe. I also want this to provide more awareness to the communities that there are fellow tribal members that not only climb but are good stewards of the land in which we are very protective of.
As of now, I am still open to those who graciously as for my guiding knowledge and am open to whatever ideas you may have or what you'd like to climb and I will tell straight out if it's doable or not.
I also have been doing this as a service but since lately the cost of gas has risen. I will take any donations especially to those we have asked for permission, as it's just customary to do so as Navajo neighbors.
I do look to the future with great hope that we'll one day get this all situated and can maybe prosper from it but for now, I only do it for the experience but am open to whatever you can offer as well.
The last climbers I took were gracious enough to just get some very nice La Sportiva Approach Shoes and just that alone was good enough along as the friendship we now share.
I hope this helps in all the confusion as well as hope that we as Navajo climbers can help more in gaining access the right way.
I love climbing and nothing is going to stop me from enjoying what we have here on our reservation.
Peace.
Quentin Tutt
quentin.tutt@hotmail.com
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Thanks, Quentin and Alex for reaching out and embracing climbers, climbing, adventure, fun and life;........and not letting our race, color, background or sexual orientation (you like that one...) interfere with all or any of this;.....much respect........I believe this has been a long time coming. Maybe someday, we can take down this damn sign in Monument Valley, get over ourselves, and enjoy the challenges and adventures the awesome rocks on planet earth have blessed us all with.....I truly believe they are sacred not just to the Navajos......but sacred to us all........
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Good post Quentin!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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That's awesome Quenton! Best of luck.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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Q75
Just so I'm clear, you've received verbal permission from the tribe for you and other Diné to climb on the Rez? And this applies to any non-Navajo who may accompany you?
It might be a good idea to write a letter to the editor of Rock and Ice outlining your clarifications, if you're interested...I'm pretty sure it would mean more coming from you than me.
Also, I have probably an extra rack's worth of cams and nuts, hexes, a rope and various slings, couple pairs of climbing shoes, some other gear I'll probably never use. Would aspiring Diné climbers be interested in this stuff? I'd love to help get more of you climbing, and this gear is just sitting here.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Ron;....sorry you can't embrace the positive side to this story;.......maybe step back a bit, give it a break, and revisit later with a different and more positive take;.....i don't know;....just a suggestion........I honestly believe Quentin and Alex are moving in a wonderful and positive direction;.......sorry you don't feel that way......
Here's the story behing the rebar;........(maybe this will help a bit.....).....
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/round-rock-s-e-side/105960676
As For the 1000 bolted FAs in joshua tree.....about 700 of those FAs would be trad climbs with no bolts placed........
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Ron may lack in subtlety but he makes valid points.
Can't we all just get along?
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Todd, youve done well over 1000 BOLTED routs in JT alone. Wanna see the Navajo lands the very same? JT now has trash, graffiti and theft problems.
I didn't interpret anything TG said as wanting to see Navajolands turned into another J Tree. Think you're barking up the wrong tree here Ron.
Also don't think TG's bolts are responsible for the problems you listed.
The potential environmental and social impacts of opening the Rez to climbing are worth discussing though, climbers aren't necessarily the ecology-minded people they once had the reputation of being, and sport climbs do seem to attract a different kind of climber.
This is why guys like Quentin and Alex are so important: to act as guides and liaisons who can educate visitors about the aspects of climbing there that are unique and special.
Not to get too far ahead here but I think the assumption that ending the climbing ban would automatically result in a resource-damaging free-for-all is a bit cynical. This type of overuse can be avoided. Anyway it's their land and they can do what they want with it, ban climbing altogether, grid bolt it and charge admission or anything in between.
Finally, I don't see any sport climbs in TG's photos, just a bunch of sick ass hard desert aid and spire bagging.
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10b4me
climber
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Just curious Ron. What has trash, and graffiti, in Joshua Tree got to do with bolted routes, in Joshua Tree. What is the correlation?
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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Fluffy,
As far as Dec 2013, we were verbally told that we have been approved to be certified along with financial assistance from the tribe. All this will go to future youth programs and also on my personal part, other programs that target the youth whether it be through the local Boys and Girls club, any Youth Development programs whether it be thru the Nations own programs, church youth programs and even through the Special Ed. programs that Alex passionately works for.
We are still waiting for the letter at this point to give us the go ahead. We would rather wait for that rather than jump the gun and possibly jeopardize all the hard work we've put into it.
Also if you feel as though you can contribute to the cause, I will gladly take you up on your offer. We have had some support from other climbers as well that do have sponsorship and we can use any extra gear you're willing to donate.
I have a rack of cams, nuts, slings, as well as ropes and harnesses along with shoes but definitely I'm still limited in taking any one out. Just two weeks ago, I took out my 15 year old daughter along with her friends and you should've seen my niece climb and climb her hardest in some Chuck Taylor's all because I don't have the right size shoes for her. That in itself is far more rewarding than accompanying any climbers out on the real hard stuff.
I hope all goes well from this point too and I will consider writing something to R&I as well.
I've also posted this thread to my Facebook wall and so far, I've had nothing but support from fellow tribal members that do see my point of view and agree that we need programs that target our youth.
There is far too many just roaming the streets without any ambitions, goals and even fatherly figures without having to deal with the hardships of addiction.
I feel as though I can make that positive mark in my tribe. I too almost fell victim to the crap shoot of alcoholism as well as drug addiction but I persevered and I'm alive and sober.
We all need to look beyond ourselves especially to the young ones and be examples of what we can be without all the strife addiction brings.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Thanks Todd for sharing those incredible photos of an inspiring land.
You deserve an immense amount of respect and admiration from the climbing community for your ability to rise above these issues which haunt us. You are not the sort of person that most people hack upon. I'm sure that when you were doing these ascents on the Navajo Nation, some two to three decades ago (when there were hundreds of thousands less climbers), the locals recognized that you are a unique, powerful man and they granted you some special privilege. I am sure they saw you working with their children in their community and could understand your strength.
Q75: I'm pleased you have found climbing and that you are a champion for the cause with your people. I'm with you in your statement that you hope this article did not upset the people you have been working with to open up the climbing on your home lands. R&I has a long history of controversial headlines designed to inflame and hurt people. It is how they sell magazines as they struggle to survive in a dying industry.
I've said it before but it bears repeating. Climbing on the Navajo Nation is not like climbing on Federal Land (USFS, BLM, NPS). On the Navajo Nation, unlike Federal lands, you are climbing in peoples' back yards. And often these people feel a deep, spiritual connection with the earth, one which few of us white folks can even begin to imagine or even understand. I sincerely hope that climbers who choose to visit and climb these lands tread very carefully and with deep respect for the people they encounter.
It is curious to see all the responses to this thread which represent a wide spectrum of the climbing community. On the one hand you have the "Jacksonian View", which believe in rugged individualism in which self-worship is only in competition with the love of money. These folks tend to believe in Manifest Destiny and in man's domination of the natural environment. Persons of this belief give the impression of spending many long hours in front of a mirror, with one middle finger aimed squarely at the past and one aimed scornfully at the future. Money and fame is what drives these people to rock climb.
Closely aligned with the Jacksonian View is the Vanity Club (a.ka. the Mountain Projectors), The leadership of this gang also spends much time in a room full of mirrors and share the Jacksonian view that nature is a force to be conquered. These type of people view climbing in terms of numbers - the more points one scores the greater the legacy they hold in their community. The only value nature has is that it is a force to be used as a vehicle for shameless self promotion. These die hards despise adventure climbing, the only real climb is one in which every move, every handhold, every piece of protection has been extensively documented. In part because of their competitiveness, these people seek to destroy the concept of "adventure climbing".
Both the above views tend to hold land managers / owners with little regard, particularly if a dollar can be made (Jacksonian) or a point can be scored (Vanity Club). Interesting to note the strongest, most dangerous and vocal members of these two clubs reside in the state of CO.
On the other hand you have the "Authoritarian Streakers". These sorts of folks tend to respect and strive towards establishing positive, working relationships with the people whom own the lands upon which they recreate and recharge. These persons typically have a more holistic understanding of the world and work to conserve climbing for today and the future, while showing respect for those who came before. Some are nostalgic in that they tend to long for the good old days, when the world was a simpler place with a lot less climbers and a lot less publicity regarding these special areas.
Anyway, some food for thought as we struggle towards meaning in this stupidly addicting pursuit called climbing.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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how many more copies of the mag did this thread just sell for them?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Cool post, Albert....very well said with some interesting ideas.
It made me think of my past experiences on the Rez;.......I remember freely roaming around my "neighborhood"...just like everyone else who lived out there.......everyone in my town of Lukachukai knew I was a teacher. They knew I lived in a hogan, I rock climbed, I didn't buy rugs over $20, I would give people rides when they needed it, I didn't have any valuables in my hogan, I didn't loan $ to anyone except the Wheelers (my aide in my class), and I drove my car like a maniac. They knew I would take in any dogs and feed them, that I smoked Marlboro cigarettes and I would share a smoke anytime....they knew I didn't have a gun, they knew I liked kids, and that I was pretty much harmless and friendly. They knew I didn't drink and didn't have any booze at my hogan. Most of all, they knew I sort of "fit in" out there, and that I liked living, working, and climbng there, and that I was in no big-ass hurry to leave or bail out on my job, the kids in my class, and my community. No one in Lukachukai looks upon rock climbing in a bad way, and I seriously doubt if anyone knew it was "illigal"....if it even was illigal. As you can imagine, it's very remote and isolated on the Reservation;...especially smack dap in the middle where I was. I believed that exploring, hiking, and climbing was a God-send for me;......it kept me motivated, up-beat, happy, healthy, strong, and content to be living in a mud house, away from family and friends, away from normal "dating" (whatever that is...), and I felt that I belonged there and I was supposed to be there. There were times I got homesick, depressed, tired of the isolation and felt lonely and "trapped" in a vaccum of sorts;....and yeah;..times I wanted to just say "fuk it" and pack up and move back home to Mommy and Daddy.....but I had responsibilities, ties, and work to do in my community, and I had some bad-ass rocks to climb...... In the two years I lived on the Rez, I never once saw another person rock climbing, I never felt like I was "trespassing" or being "bad"...and only once was I shooed away by a landowner. This idea and concept that my climbing was pissing ANYONE off in my community just didn't exist;....and when I read posts about it on the internet;...I don't get it. It wasn't that way at all for me. Not at all. When Navajos saw us climbing or driving near their houses or hogans..they usually came over and talked to us and we always told them we were climbing and they always seemed stoked. .....so;....the comments about pissing off the locals;......not true in my case;...not at all. I'm sure there are disapproving Navajos out there;.......I didn't met any.
After I climbed Spider Rock, I somehow got ill (was it realted to the climb.......hmmmmmm;...you never know...).......but my aide in my classroom said it was because I upset spider woman.....here is an account of that experience............
http://joshuatreeclimb.com/Stories/prespyderrock.htm
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Todd that is wonderful insight into your time out on the Rez. As I noted earlier, you are an exception to the rule when it comes to climbers, and men in general.
Interesting story about your ascent of Spider Rock. Some years ago, along with a few of my Anglo buddies we decided to follow in the footsteps of the ancient ones on part of a prehistoric rite of passage in a major canyon in NAZ. We basically got our arses handed to us along the way, running out of food and water, heat illnesses, etc. Anyway, after getting lost a few times we made it out of there, only to have one of the vehicles break down, one man had a major disagreement with his woman, and a couple of us were rather sick (puking, diarrhea, etc). The only one with no problems, or at least never any mention of them, was our Dineh brother who accompanied us.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aside from the Jacksonian View and the Vanity Club are those who do as they please and never leave a trace behind them to betray who did what and and where. This is how we used to operate in "no climbing" zones. Completely on the sly. Never mentioning anything to anyone.
We always had complete respect for the environment, and never left so much as a cigarette butt. What other people said about it was never our business because we never hung around to talk.
The thing about areas where climbing has been banned or regulated is that the people in charge always want to be included in any conversation per who is doing what, and where. That's simple territorialism - a primitive but powerful force. What's more is the idea of ownership of natural resources, and divine right to same.
These were always the forces at play when we used to burgle climbs as teenagers, and it always made it very exciting to climb on the sly like that. Forty years later it's amusing how we get ourselves worked up over all of this, but one thing remains the same: Everything vectors off the people out there doing stuff.
Meanwhile I'm just talking. Perhaps the most delusional thing at play here is that this (my) talking should and can legislate what free people will do. So long as the environment is treated as something sacred, the rest of the issues might just be between my two ears.
JL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Largo thank you for the wisdom you have shared with the climbing community for decades.
Edit: remember the rule of the fight club?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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i dont recall that guy shooting at us in the high desert wanting to talk about it
nor his buddy down in temecula
---
Climbing "on the sly" means not being seen. The gunplay is the territorialism I mentioned and the belief in ownership. Tresspassing. But stolen waters are sweet, as they say.
JL
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2014 - 12:00am PT
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These were always the forces at play when we used to burgle climbs as teenagers, and it always made it very exciting to climb on the sly like that. Forty years later it's amusing how we get ourselves worked up over all of this
Forty years later and there are 1000x more climbers and a completely different set of circumstances. Sure it's romantic to reminisce about some innocent teenagers stealing an ascent of some forbidden spire but the fact is this is unsustainable behavior to begin with and much more so with the groundswell of popularity the sport has seen.
I love the stories and pictures of stolen ascents as much as anyone but to suggest that this is the way to get it done is reckless, irresponsible and misguided. If folks want to do it, that's up to them. But the icons of this sport have to recognize these aren't the glory days anymore. Romanticizing illegal behavior, especially in print, opens a huge can of worms that others are trying to keep a lid on. Yeah you got away with it, victimless crime right? Until you start telling everyone about it...
The future of climbing on the Rez isn't going to be under cover of darkness, and those climbers that decide to do that are selfishly jeopardizing access for all climbers including the handful of Diné.
As for who owns the land and if it's really sacred or not that argument is a non-starter. The Native Americans are exempt from this hair-splitting because of what our ancestors did to them. It's their land, let them decide what to do with it. Until they allow us to climb there take your privileged white ass to any of the other million rocks you can climb legally.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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I'm down with Largo on this.
I've lived in Kayenta for 5 years now. Practically every time I've roped up out here it was to do FAs in obscure corners. Chances of running in to law enforcment are slim. I'd be more worried about the locals. My partner is Navajo. She'll tell you. "There's some wild indians out there". In fact, I'd seriously consider carrying a firearm in certain areas. Or, just don't go there.
Couple months ago I got confronted while hopping a barbed wire fence on the side of the highway. I was just returning from one of the little bouldering areas I frequent. This Navajo dude flipps a U-turn when he sees me. Its just me and my dog. The dude had been drinking, I could smell it. Had his wife and kid in the truck, no car seat. He basically threatened me. Told me he lived "over there". Mother f*#k wouldn't let it go. I finally gave him a 20 and slammed my door in his face. I not so sure he really lived "over there". Might have been different if mommy and baby weren't there.
Haven't been back to that area.
Monument Valley? I bet if you offered enough $$$ you could peak their interest. Otherwise, I haven't wanted to risk getting busted and possibly losing my job to climb the Totem Pole, as classic as it is.
Look man, just like everywhere else, governments are corrupt, tribal, chapter, and township governments included. Respect the locals, make it worth their while and everything will probably work out fine. Then, all you have to worry about is the choss . . .
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Todd thats awesome! in alot of ways not much has changed! People are still intrigued when they see us climbing. thanks for sharing your experience in LA!! it reinforced all the reasons i live on the rez.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I love the stories and pictures of stolen ascents as much as anyone but to suggest that this is the way to get it done is reckless, irresponsible and misguided.
-
Seems a bit much. Also seems like an attempt to standardize how we should go about climbing according to some objective criteria - which doesn't exist. It also assumes that Indian lands and the people on them are all of a piece, when in fact there is as much diversity amongst Indians as there is in any other demographic. What's more, the idea that the Indians are being overrun by climbers is debatable.
All of these issues are very fluid. It's not a matter of heedless white folk exploiting the fluid situation to burgle illegal ascents of sacred, off-limits rocks, as it is people simply seeking out novelty and adventure. Some people will be offended on both sides of the fence, yelling fowl, and seeking to control and regulate "irresponsible adventuring."
All the arguments are in fact sane and right and mature and honorable. And they will be overlooked by young climbers so long as the spires stand. Likewise, there will be responsible folk out there trying to shame and control them in the name of sobritey and decency. That's just the human dynamic at play. Don't expect it to change much.
JL
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all in jim
climber
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"All the arguments are in fact sane and right and mature and honorable. And they will be overlooked by young climbers so long as the spires stand. Likewise, there will be responsible folk out there trying to shame and control them in the name of sobritey and decency. That's just the human dynamic at play. Don't expect it to change much."
Love it!
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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...And this debate will go on and on and on. Screw this, let's climb!
I'm available still to those who choose to come down and take a chance. That's all I have to say about this subject anymore and that's what I told Mr. Haas from the very beginning and others as well. If we get into trouble, we'll all get into trouble together. I'm done giving anymore statements justifying my actions.
Thanks as well to Todd Gordon for sharing your pictures as well and for making a difference in some kid's life up in LA, where I too have family that live there as well.
Peace all and Happy Climbing.
"1st rule: No talking about fight club.
2nd rule: There will be no talking about fight club!"
I can agree with that quote.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Again, I'm not trying to wax poetic about the glory of "irresponsibly" burgling routes, all I'm saying is that young folks out there doing sh#t will rarely listen to us old folk telling them what to do and how to do it just because we declare that our reasons are valid, just, responsible, logical, and so forth.
Young folk out there creating new worlds live by their own rules. Always have - and we have no say in the matter. This dynamic is neither right or wrong but simply the ways things have always been.
When passing judgement on, or trying to create meaningful policy about any of this - usually the province of the old guard - we need to take this as a starting point - that the young are the ones in motion and largely do as they please - or the whole thing devolves into a power struggle disguised as a "responsible" argument against chaos, freedom, and all the other labels we can stack on the issue.
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Long and I grew up during the same area, in the same neck of the woods, with the same crowd;.......the young climbers do as they please gig rings true.........It must go along with the awkward age for boys;..that would be age 13 to 65....(and in Donini's case.......stretchable to age 70)......All my yuppie/hipster friends are declaring "I never gonna grow up"....while the homies that I roll with are finally, approching age 60;....proclaiming...."It's time I grow up....please...someone help me with this seemingly impossible task".......
I think Quentin has it right;......Screw it, let's climb. And if we get into trouble, let's get into trouble together.......I'm with ya, Quentin.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
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the young are the ones in motion and largely do as they please
yeah they do.
but along the way they got some guidance or inspiration or whatever from the climbers that came before them. i don't believe that every generation reinvents the wheel...we're standing on the shoulders of the pioneers in almost everything we do.
speaking for myself, i got stoked to do a lot of what I've done from hearing stories from guys like you, Largo.
younger generations do look to the badasses of other eras to define themselves. same goes for magazines like Rock and Ice. so we might think of this when we discuss delicate or controversial topics.
I think Quentin has it right;......Screw it, let's climb. And if we get into trouble, let's get into trouble together.......I'm with ya, Quentin.
so after however many pages we're just going with the Rock and Ice concept? heh. ironic.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Largo,
I enjoyed your last post in regards to young people doing as they please. I regularly work with at-risk teens (including a number of Dine). I realize that most of these youngsters are doomed to spending much more of their life in prison, but that does not stop me from trying to share some of my life experiences with them in hopes they can make more informed choices.
This is precisely why I have repeatedly emphasized in this thread that we need to show the locals (i.e. Navajo Nation) as much respect as we are capable. I realize that a lot of climbers will just say, "Fuk it, you can't tell me what to do." While I do not agree with this train of thought, it might be passable on Federal land (FS,NPS,etc) we should recognize the Navajo lands are a much different place.
I like your idea of climbing indiscreetly. Having the privilege of climbing with at least two phenomenally talented free / aid climbers, it is sadly laughable when I do glance at one of the mags and read about some blowhard announcing he is the raddest climber to ever be in the desert. If people only knew what a distorted version of the truth these magazines portray...
Lastly, to any Federal or Tribal law enforcement officer reading this thread, please consider that R&I magazine in no way represents the viewpoint or opinion of many persons who call themselves climbers.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Fluffy wrote:
younger generations do look to the badasses of other eras to define themselves. same goes for magazines like Rock and Ice. so we might think of this when we discuss delicate or controversial topics.
Couldn't agree more.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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"Fuk it, you can't tell me what to do."
I never took this attitude myself. It was just that other's opinions never entered the conversation. Why should they? That's how we thought back then.
I realized that people come and go but the environment remains, and that is what we always held as sacred. So long as the actual place itself as held dear and treated like a divine article, everything else was really just us folks squabbling about this and that.
I too used to work with juvenile delinquents (that's what they called them in the 1970s) when I was in college and the "climb by stealth" MO would never fly with that demographic. Those people needed rules and boundaries and so forth. We all do.
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I've been telling people that climbing on the Rez is cool for 35 years;.....no one listened to me then;..and know one listens to me now;....(I think it's teachers;....no one listens to them;..their students, their principals, the parents, their spouses, their friends.......but they keep on flapping while no one listens to them....)...
The rock is some of the worst in the world, the climbing is WAY scary and dangerous, you have to be masterful at piton work, and you best on your game with soft rock anchors.............mass invasion of climbers climbing on the REZ...I dont' think it's gonna happen...(but you never know.....).........I have trouble finding people who want to go trad climbing anymore;.....everyone wants to clip bolts and go!...(and why not...gets you back to your beer quicker...)..
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Haha so true, Todd, sometimes I feel as if I am flapping my jaws into the wind, wasting time creating these elaborate responses on this thread. Sure feel that way when some 15 year old just out of prison is telling me to go F - myself.
And Largo, just to be very clear, I hold your contributions to the sport in very high regard.
It is the crappy rock which will indeed keep this place from being overrun. I chuckle when I read reports on here when people complain about a "grainy pitch" in Yosemite. Ha Ha, they have no clue how terrible some (edit: most) of this rock is.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Largo wrote:
I realized that people come and go but the environment remains, and that is what we always held as sacred. So long as the actual place itself as held dear and treated like a divine article, everything else was really just us folks squabbling about this and that.
I realize I have been flapping my jaw for days now. In case it isn't clear yet, we are dealing with a completely different culture, an entirely different way of life, at least with the traditional Navajo that I have been gifted to know. Sure, I believe these rocks to be sacred, too, just like you. But for these people the rocks are a part of their history, their being, their everyday life. These places are a part of their person, their family. They have a different view of nature, in which they are a participant, versus being an observer. It is a difficult concept for us white folks to even consider.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Todd how tall is that 8 pitch route that you mentioned a couple of times up thread? What are the tallest rocks down there? I want to trad climb.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The 8 pitch climb is about 1000' high....(but it's not a trad climb)......go for the 2nd ascent.......(It's not a great climb...but it's a 5 star adventure....)
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Mike there are many climbing areas on Federal lands on the fringes of the Navajo Nation which offer similar experiences without all the potential hassle. Hundreds of spires / towers / big walls on lands which are much less complicated to access. Sorry, no pics.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I've climbed in the the desert a fair bit, but not on the reservation. Todd If it is not a trad climb what is it?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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young folks out there doing sh#t will rarely listen to us old folk telling them what to do and how to do it
Pal, ain't that the truth. Supertopo is where all of the old farts hang out in their august years. I bet that 95% of the posts here are from people over 30.
Did any of you listen to people over 30 when you were in your studly years?
I didn't either.....
Seriously, we should start a thread with bowel movements as a topic.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I think it was 9 pitches up...and 9 pitches back down...same way;.....we had hired a Navajo guide to take us around the Canyon;....and we were not secret of our plans to climb the mesa....he sort of chuckled,...not thinking we were serious.......we hiked around the whole mesa...and saw that it was indeed a mesa...with towering walls on all sides and no easy way up it.....we took it a step farther and rented an airplane (a pal and I both have our pilot's licenses)...and confirmed that it was a big unclimbed mesa..........
With this info.......we set anchors on the way up, knowing that we were coming down the same way;....once we summited, it was actually rather quick and academic on the way down........we had a number of ropes and alot of the lower pitches "fixed"...so we rapped, rapped, and towards the bottom.....rapped, coiled, and chucked off the ropes........the anchors were all bomber......we made sure of that...
(BASE 104;....too funny;...I think you are correct;..except that most of the posts are NOT from people over 30......but from people over 55........let's talk about our prostates.....)..
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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I might not have listened to my elders at the time.
But I certainly heard them.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I get stopped up bad sometimes. When I can finally lay a steamer as long as my forearm, I feel pretty damn good. The preceding days are a little rough. I get in a foul mood if I get clogged up.
I've also got hair growing out of my ears and nose.
....to be young again.....
Todd still climbs all of the time. So do a couple of other old partners. What is the secret? Prunes?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Personally....I'll wrap things up for myself on this post;..seemings as I took it upon myself to "grab the bull by the balls" on this one. Thank you for the exchange of ideas and thoughts....appreciate it all;....climber to climber, human to human....thank you for that. We chased our own tails, ran around in a circle,, and sort of ended up back at the beginning. But throughout the "journey"...we hopefully learned something about climbing on the Rez, ourselves, others viewpoints, and about an issue that is full or love, concern, passion, and mystery..........
At the end of the day, ....some of you want to give me the middle finger and some of you wish to shake my hand....call me villian or victor.....depending on how you call it;......but my kids still call me Daddy..........(I'm good with all of that......).......Goodnite ,all...and thanks again for sharing..........
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Awesome Todd thanks for the info. We have more than a few reservations up here with "rock" that would make this stuff look like gritstone.
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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One more post for the comic in me.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Talkin' 'bout prostrates????
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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But for these people the rocks are a part of their history, their being, their everyday life. These places are a part of their person, their family. They have a different view of nature, in which they are a participant, versus being an observer. It is a difficult concept for us white folks to even consider.
-
I think you've just described the bulk of the "lifer" climbers I have know, the majority who are white. I have never believed that so-called indigenous people have a favored-nation kind of connection to the wild places. It's hard to have a more intimate connection to the rocks than to claw up them with with hands and feet, to sweat and bleed on them and rage and cry and laugh with them, to sleep with them and in some cases to die on them. While some people insist that we have no "right" to engage the rocks in this way, and I honor this as far as I can, some part of me wonders if others know or respect what a lifer has invested in the game. Not that others should care, nor yet that we should care about their opinions. Not as young people. Opinions don't matter much till we coil the rope and become important.
But I do contend that the environment itself - and not our very human opinions and biases and regulations - is where our sacred fealty lies. Opinions change, regulations shift, and attitudes transform with time. But
the rock itself is a nonrenewable resource.
JL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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That is a very good point Mr. Long in regards to the "lifer" climbers and their love of the wild. Here is perhaps another side to the coin.
How many "lifer" climbers can say this in regards to the land:
Their great, great, great, great, great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, great, great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, great, grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their grandfather worshipped this land.
And their father worshipped this land.
This same land where my ancestors have lived for hundreds of years?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Anyone interested in the struggles of the Navajo Nation might be want to check out this link, which highlights the cultural genocide the US Government is currently waging on some parts of the Navajo Reservation:
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/forced-relocation-big-mountain
An excerpt:
"Thousands of Navajos are resisting the forced relocation because of their religious bond with their ancestral homeland. For these people, their land is their religion. Relocating them to a foreign land would be sentencing them to slow spiritual death, already evidenced in hundreds upon hundreds of broken lives.
Traditional Navajos practice their religion as their ancestors have for centuries by performing ceremonies and making prayer offerings at sacred places where they may communicate with the Creator who placed them on this land, with the responsibility to remain and care for it. In contrast to those world religions that can be celebrated anywhere, American Indian religions are not really separable from their sacred sites. Navajos who resist forced relocation are not lawless individuals but are simply obeying their Creator's instructions, passed on orally from one generation to the next."
 See more at: http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/forced-relocation-big-mountain#sthash.pChpfyt9.dpuf
Some of us whiteys might call this hogwash, that this is "progress", but I can assure you that to my brothers who have been told to leave their ancestral homelands this is a very real situation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Judging another's intentions is a dangerous game. Better not to do it at all.
Look. They own the land. Think of it as a big ranch owned by Ted Turner. He would have rules, and I imagine that some of them wouldn't make climbers happy. The same thing exists on the res. Why would they let whitey walk all over their land if there is no upside to the deal?
We are incredibly lucky to have Todd's years of experience on the res and climbing there. I also remember Tom Cosgriff doing Spider Rock and some locals were trundling rocks down on them as they climbed out to the rim.
The entire saga of native peoples is mostly a sad one. One group that has embraced many of the aspects of industrial age culture is the Eskimos that I've run into in Alaska. They LIKE having heated homes and running water. The alternative is to go break off a large chunk of ice and dragging it back to the hut to melt. Their old ways were so hard that they happily take to many modern conveniences well.
Many are Christians. The Quaker missionaries brought religion to them early on. The old ways were also super harsh, and I don't think that they miss that part, either.
They are still deeply connected to the land and its animals. In a place where a jar of cranberry juice costed 10 bucks, you would go broke on store food. It is still Whale, Seal, Caribou, fish.
Caribou is the best meat I've ever eaten. Whale muktuk is also good.
I think that every white bastard should at least read "Black Elk Speaks" before seriously interacting with native peoples. Remember, it is their land, and they get to make up the rules.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Thanks rSin.
And Base, it's been a quarter century since I've read Black Elk Speaks, thanks for the reminder. As I said before, and assume many climbers would agree, Todd Gordon is not your average climber, or your average man for that manner. And that is written with honor and respect.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Quaker missionaries?
active conversions are not their strong suit.
//went to Quaker school in DC for 13 years
Albert-
So my bonds and respect for the land are weaker than a navajo because their ancestors may have had a bond?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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How many "lifer" climbers can say this in regards to the land:
I can. I was adopted and later learned that not only was I a quarter Comanche Indian, but my birth mother (who told me) adopted me off fearing that I would look like an "injun" and she didn't want to deal with that, being unwed. So some part of my bloodlines have been kicking around these parts for centuries.
But I don't believe that I somehow inherited my right to do this or that. Climbing, in particular, does not seem to be genetic, as neither of my kids care much about it.
Championing Indian rights is a noble cause but according rock rights by birthright to me, you, a red, yellow, or black man seems like a tough act to prove. On the other hand the idea of traditional grounds for a people is universal, so an all or nothing approach is likely not enforceable or even desirable save for zealots. It's a sticky issue. I'd like to hear more from our Navajo bros on the subject of territorial rights and so forth.
JL
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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You're right rSin.
Its all about family out here. They wanna stay around. Problem is, there's no work. They see stupid tourists all the time, why would they want to be one . . . ?
I told Laura (my navajo sweetie)about this thread. She's not real "traditional", but she said the first thing a traditional Navajo would think about people climbing the rocks would be "what if they get killed". Anything having to do with death is especially bad juju. It is customary to burn the belongings of a deceased loved one, even their house.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Rick thank you for the question which is a heavy one on this thread. I like the way this talk is getting more grounded and less focused on capitalism. Rick, I know of the posters on this thread, it's likely only Todd has climbed in more areas on the Rez than you.
Just to make it clear, I fully support authorized, paid climbing on parts of the Navajo Nation if that is what the Navajo Nation has in mind. Perhaps it could be a tiny way for the tribe to make a small amount of money. Either way, it is great to see the climbing leaders of these communities sharing this wonderful sport with their younger brothers and sisters.
Largo, I will be sharing this discussion with various brothers in the next few moons, don't worry, this thread isn't likely to pass soon.
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John M
climber
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Interesting thread.
Todd, thanks for the pictures and the stories. I would buy a book about your time living and climbing on the reservation and other areas of the desert. what an interesting and beautiful land.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Just to make it clear, I fully support authorized, paid climbing on parts of the Navajo Nation if that is what the Navajo Nation has in mind.
Anyone know of any other areas where a pay to climb system has been set up? I'm wondering what kind of liability that would open the tribe up to. Seems like once you start taking money things are going to get complicated.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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rich-
In many ways the rez could be the US version of Europe as standard state law is limited there and the finger pointing "ownership" issues are moot. There is really no one to sue. The majority of US lawyers cannot even practice on the rez! I have seen beautiful areas that would lend itself to via ferrata, mountain biking, hang gliding, BASE, climbing, canyoneering, and the standard non lethal nature hiking. Money might make the motivation and organization appear but as you have said the aspect of death might thwart the whole idea.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey Reeotch:
Anyone know of any other areas where a pay to climb system has been set up?
Mt Everest?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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There was a pay to climb place in AZ, the name escapes me. I'm pretty sure it was on tribal land, though not the Navajo res.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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You're probably thinking of Seneca Falls. Money was for a permit that everyone had to have, not just climbers as far as I know, so not really much different than a Tonto NF permit, or such.
There is Crawdad Canyon in Utah where you pay to climb, but that was private land, not rez. Haven't been there in years, but you could take a dip in the pool after if you wanted.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Seneca Falls...couldn't remember the name to save my life. They paid a couple to clean and bolt their cliffs, then charged admission. Very bolted, very safe like an beautiful outdoor climbing gym. Hey they saw a way to make money off their cliffs, can't imagine it was a great deal of money though. Anyway as of 2005 you can't climb there anymore so it must not have worked out for them.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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David, yes that is the Confluence.
Whatever happened to Seneca Falls? I remember many years ago scouting out the potential, before the trip paid those climbers to bolt up the cracks. That place still open?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Here is an example of what I would consider sustainable tourism which allows people from all over the world to experience the marvels around Page, AZ while providing some income for the Navajo Nation. Incidentally, Antelope Canyon is considered one of the most photogenic and unique slot canyons on the planet. The "4x4" trucks seem fairly packed much of the year.
In the end, my opinion is just that...
http://www.antelopecanyon.com
Antelope Canyon Tours is a customer service oriented business that specializing in slot canyon tours around Page, Arizona / Lake Powell Area. One of our primary offerings is our guest seeing Antelope Canyon through the eyes of a Native American / Navajo. Antelope Canyon Tours is a Navajo owned business providing Navajo / Native American guides from Page, Arizona.
The mysterious and haunting beauty of Antelope Canyon (also known as "Corkscrew Canyon", one of the few slot canyons in the area) awaits the adventurous traveler who seeks to discover one of the most spectacular -- yet little known attractions of the Lake Powell area. A tour to this awe-inspiring sculpture set in stone is a must for amateur and professional photographers alike. Come see nature's surprising masterpiece of color.
Travel in a 4-wheel drive vehicle that is both rugged and safe yet comfortable... Look for the monster trucks!
You enjoy a scenic ride to the canyon where the guide explains geology, cultural history and modern issues. Upon arrival at the site you will step into the desert and enter an amazing fantasy world in stone. For photographers, with proper exposures, you can bring out the best in your own creativity. For non-photographers there is a magical new world to explore and immerse yourself in. The colors are rich and deep in the morning and afternoon, and the famous light beams occur mid-day during the April to September.
Return visitors should note that the road to the Canyon has been gated by the Navajo Nation; only authorized tour guides are permitted to enter. Antelope Canyon Tours is in good standing with the Navajo Nation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yep, I've paid to take photos in Antelope Canyon. It would be great if nobody knew about it, but they take truckloads of photographers in several times each day.
There was a flash flood that killed a number of hikers in the lower part of the canyon about 12 years ago. Now they've installed several metal ladders so you can escape in the event of a flash flood. They are also super heads up over any precip happening in the upstream part of the watershed.
Slap on a 24mm lens, set the shutter to 30 seconds, and any idiot can take perfectly beautiful photographs. Of course you aren't shooting anything new..
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Lovely photograph, Base.
I believe the Antelope Canyon hiking tour now costs around $25-30 per person (1/2 day).
I know of fishing, hunting guides in northern AZ that earn $300-500 per day for their expertise. I would hope that any guided climber on the Rez is paying as much or more (per person), with the proceeds going primarily to the local chapter house. What's a Yosemite guide service charge per day for a multi-pitch climb?
What's a BASE jump worth? $75? 125?
The Antelope Canyon flood was horrific. Don't recall hearing about any law suits, though days are different now.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/14/us/12-hikers-are-swept-away-by-flash-flood-in-a-canyon.html
12 Hikers Are Swept Away By Flash Flood in a Canyon
Published: August 14, 1997
A canyon renown for its narrow, twisting limestone walls became a trap for 12 hikers on Tuesday when a flash flood filled it with a wall of water 11 feet high.
The guide for several of the hikers survived, battered and his clothes ripped off by the force of the water, and the body of one woman was found yesterday. The other 10 are missing and presumed dead.
The storm came without warning. A cloudburst 15 miles away sent heavy runoff down a normally dry wash in Antelope Canyon toward the unsuspecting sightseers. ''Rain had not fallen where they were hiking,'' said Benson Nez, a ranger on the Navajo reservation which the canyon runs through.
In recent years, the colorful, intricately carved walls of pure sandstone found in Antelope Canyon have drawn photographers from throughout the world.
On Tuesday, the corkscrewing cliff walls funneled the water into an 11-foot-high wall of water racing toward Lake Powell, six miles away.
The survivor, Pancho Quintane, a 28-year-old guide from TrekAmerica, based in Los Angeles, had grabbed a ledge, the authorities said. He was airlifted to Tate Hopsital here and later released.
Searchers recovered the body of a woman whose identity has not been released.
The remaining 10 hikers are presumed dead, said Chief Deputy Sam Whitted of the Coconino County Sheriff's Department. Officials have postponed the search until daylight, when teams will resume their efforts to find the missing hikers, aided by divers, search dogs and a national Guard helicopter.
On their way back from their hike, a party of six, led by Mr. Quintane, had almost reached safety when the water hit about 4:10 P.M.
A Page resident, Ted Candelaria, noticed an empty van parked near the trail head on his way home from work at the nearby Navajo Generating Station.
''I knew someone was in trouble,'' he said. ''With all that dark, dark water rushing down there.''
As the water began subsiding, he said, he waded down the canyon about a mile and found Mr. Quintane being helped by a state trooper. ''He was all beat up,'' Mr. Candelaria said. ''He had rolled around a while until he hit a ledge and then pulled himself up. All of his clothes were gone; the water was that strong. It had taken his shoes, his shorts, his shirt, everything. He was just stark naked -- bruised and battered. It was horrific, just horrifying to see what it did to him.''
Sheriff's deputies said the hikers included two from the United states, seven from France, one from Britain and one from Switzerland.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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To go back to the OP and the idea of ethical journalism.....There's not much I like to read in the mags because real life climbing is so much better but I do notice the little things in the articles that interest me. One miscue that I didn't like because it was in an article about the possibility of someone soloing El Cap; To wit and article entitled "Yosemite Roulette" by Dougald McDonald had the sentence "Many of the most famous free soloists Derek Hersey, Dan Osman, Michael Reardon died performing one climbing stunt or another." Reardon didn't die free soloing nor from 'one climbing stunt or another" and it bothered me that, although a small mistake, made me wonder about the facts in the rest of the article. True, Reardon was climbing that day and was swept off the rocks on the hike out but the article suggest that he died while in the act of some stunt.
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George R
climber
The Gray Area
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"Irresponsible Journalism" - Isn't that redundant ?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Just a few weeks prior to that flash flood in Antelope, I was there working on a film about canyoneering for the Outdoor Life Network (I was the host of the show). Though at the time I didn't know a whole hell of a lot about canyoneering (my experiences at the time mostly from descending Zion walls), I knew it was a dangerous time--monsoon season in the southwest, y'know--and was pretty hesitant at times. I think my cameraman thought I was being a wuss. We later did Behunin in Zion also for the film--he wanted to do a harder, more committing canyon but I said no way. In the next couple years I got into canyonneering big time and realised that doing any of the canyons during that season was pretty nuts.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Feb 10, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Here is a brief article which may help some of us to understand a bit of the Navajo culture:
http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070520/news_1n20seeking.html
Navajo man struggles to find place in changing world
By Susan White
STAFF WRITER
May 20, 2007
Donvan Staley steered the blue Jeep confidently into the brown water that was flowing across the canyon floor, between the steep red cliffs of Canyon de Chelly National Monument in northeastern Arizona.
He grew up here, he said as he twisted the wheel to avoid deep spots and rocks. So did his father, his grandfather and his great-grandfather.
“This is my church, you could say, my office, my home,” the 32-year-old Navajo guide said.
Canyon de Chelly (pronounced d-shay) is on the 4 million-acre Navajo Reservation near the town of Chinle. Like just about everything in American life, it is in transition. Navajo families who once lived on the peaceful preserve are moving to more hospitable parts of the reservation. The canyon has no running water or electricity, and the most basic necessities must be brought in on four-wheel-drive vehicles. During our tour, Staley stopped twice to help extract vehicles that were stuck in the sand.
Like other Navajo we met that day, Staley is trying to figure out his place in this changing world. His first child is due in July, and he's already thinking about how to prepare him or her for the future.
He is sure one thing will remain constant: his family's connection to the canyon, which has been inhabited for 1,500 years.
Although the canyon is on Navajo land, it has been operated since 1931 by the National Park Service. Visitors come to see the remains of ancient dwellings tucked precariously onto ledges of the cliffs and to experience, if only for a few hours, the tranquillity of the Navajo treasure. Outsiders can enter only under the supervision of a park ranger or with a licensed guide.
“When I was a boy, I swam here,” Staley said as the Jeep lurched through the water. He also herded sheep in the canyon and, on horseback, kept watch over the family's free-ranging livestock.
He pointed to the dark streaks that drip down the canyon walls.
“It's manganese,” he said. “My grandmother used to say it looks like Mother Earth's hair.”
People no longer live in the canyon during the winter, he said, because the temperature can drop to 15 degrees below zero and the children have to get to school. Traditionally they return in the summer, living in hogans, which are round homes made of logs and clay.
But fewer return each year.
Staley estimates that no more than 50 people spend their summers in the valley these days. His family visits its ancestral land – near an overlook called Sliding House – mostly on weekends, maybe to plant some corn or spend some quiet time “bringing back the balance” to their lives.
Staley earns his living in the winter as a substitute teacher. In the summer he helps run the family guide business, De Chelly Tours, which was started by his great-grandfather.
The guide work gives him the greatest pleasure. It's not easy to make ends meet, he said, because more people are offering tours. Even so, he would like his child to become a guide and preserve the traditions of the canyon. He also hopes the child will learn to speak fluent Navajo, as his wife does, rather than his own mix of English and Navajo, which he jokingly calls “Navalish.”
Staley is practical, however. The world is changing, and he wants to prepare his child for what comes next.
“Education is the way to a better life,” he said. “Education first, the canyon second.”
Staley stopped the Jeep in front of Fortress Rock to share the story his grandparents told him.
In 1864, the Navajo surrendered to Kit Carson at this site after a siege of almost six months. Nine thousand people were marched 300 miles to a reservation at Fort Sumner, N.M., where they were held until 1868. Only 3,000 made their way home.
I asked Staley if telling that story made him feel bitter.
He paused for a minute. “You feel it once in a while.”
Then he shook his head and kept driving.
“If you're Navajo, you don't dwell on the past – you go forward. You don't mention the person who has passed you to go forward. If you dwell in the past, it affects your mind, so you move forward.”
It's better to stay positive and focus on the beauty around you, he said.
The beauty of the water flowing over the red sand. The beauty of the pictographs left on the cliffs by other people who have called the canyon home.
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b.b.
Trad climber
ojai, CA
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Feb 12, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
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Here is an article I wrote for Climbing mag a few years back... and the second page...
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Feb 12, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Climbing on the rez..the weather is getting nicer n nicer...! March is looking promissing for rez adventure time on the rock. Some may not agree but whos up for a remarkable experience! And there is so much info out about the rez...especially about climbing...just look the research is there. So irresposible journalism? Not in my opinion
Climbing is here so meet some rez folk an go for it....you will be all good..also if .you want to find out our culture?..come visit...open door policy at my house! ....
Dirt Bags Welcome!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 13, 2014 - 01:28am PT
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b. b.'s article. I'd forgotten. Damn. My name keeps coming up.
It's true what I told Bennett.
In spring 1983 I was on a long vacation. Touring the West on a motorcycle (a humble Honda 350) and arrived in Flagstaff. Next to the train tracks were a parade of bars. Back then, naive, curious, with a fierce mid-morning thirst, I stepped over whatever bodies were lying on the sidewalk, marched straight in. And was met by a dour silence. Whole bar was Navajos. Undeterred, not comprehending anything, I sat at the bar, ordered a beer, started talking to whoever was sat next to me. Took a little while, but when it became clear to the assembled crew that I was not American but a Brit (my accent was pretty strong back then), foreign, but as lost in this vast country as they were, happy to wile away an afternoon in a windowless bar drinking cheap beer and sharing stories, listening, then I was welcome; everyone's friend. I even bought a necklace or bracelet or two for a girlfriend I most certainly did not have back then.
The sense of community was so strong I felt almost more at home there in that bar than anywhere else I'd been in California or Arizona.
All these years later I'm changed. Mostly for the better, I think, calmer, saner, but now I've lived so long in the Anglo US world that that same bar would seem foreign, scary. No way I'd just barge right in. Changing for the better I've also lost something along the way.
But, maybe I can find some of that again. Sign me up, Alex. Let's go climbing! First week in March?
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Feb 13, 2014 - 10:58am PT
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i cant make out he picture in the article but who did you say FA the tower in the picture. Because i believe Cam Burns has the FA on both the Down and Out towers.
Crunch ill send you my email.
alex
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 13, 2014 - 11:17am PT
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i cant make out he picture in the article but who did you say FA the tower in the picture. Because i believe Cam Burns has the FA on both the Down and Out towers.
You can click on the picture for a larger version. Both photos were taken by Cam Burns (photo credits in gray, sideways, on the far right or left of side of the article).
These would be first ascent photos, Luke Laeser and Mike Baker were Cam's climbing partners.
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Feb 13, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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Thank you Crunch i was able to check it out.. i had no idea this was out..cool stuff! :)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 14, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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That article above about the Navajo guide is interesting to me. The guy's last name is Staley, and our guide back in the eighties was a man named Dan Staley. Perhaps this is his son. If so, I met him when he was a little kid.
Small world sometimes.
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