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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 5, 2003 - 02:46pm PT
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We are pleased to inform you that the spectacular corner high on drug dome is no longer scarred by unnecessary midway anchors. These offensive quarter inchers have been pulled, as well as an anchor about 80 feet up the first pitch, and a quarter incher at the gram traverse/OZ belay.
I give all due respect to Dale Bard, however, not even first-ascensionists have the right to place bolts next to a crack halfway up a full pitch.... Though rapping the route with one rope is no longer possible, the walk down is fine unless you're a lightweight.
Cheers!
James and Max
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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And did you replace the manky quarter inch bolts on the last pitch so that the route can be safely finished?
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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This is what I am always wondering whenever I hear or read stuff like the message posted above:
Given that plenty of climbers have made their way up that line w/out needing to chop any bolts, who are you to be the one to make those decisions? Did you contact the party that placed them and discuss it w/ them, or are you so omniscient that you already know what they were thinking and why they placed the bolts in question? I am not saying those bolts were needed in that spot, but I am just not sure I want you (or anyone like you) to be the self appointed bolt police.
If nothing else, you might be shafting some poor kid who is pushing himself at the grade and expects to find the bolts, as shown in his guide book topo.
Also, your attitude in that post doesn't do much to assure anyone that your judgement is sound or that your ego is secondary to your interest in the route itself.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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I am pleased to inform you that you do not have the right to determine how a first ascentionist should climb a route. Perhaps you'd like to chop all bolts on El Cap and require that we toprope them with 3000' ropes; carrying the ropes to the top should be fine unless we're all lightweights.
With all due respect to you Gym Climber(s) from The City by the Bay: due us a favor and don't do us any more favors. Keep yourselves and your self-righteous ethics in the gym.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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I must've missed the announcement when you guys became the new bolt police. What's next, Cookie Monster? Are you gonna go strip that this weekend and come back to the forum next week and tell us how proud you feel?
BTW, did you lead the corner on OZ using nuts only? What about the Gram Traverse, did you do that on passive protection as well? Let me know 'cause I'm curious.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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delusions of grandeur.
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dave
climber
Oceanside
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Hey Wolf, I think we'll need a 6000 ft' rope to T.R. El Cap. If we use the 3000 ft' should we just pick an arbitrary spot for a fat ass bolted T.R. anchor? Or should we leave gear behind? Hows the rope get up there anyways? Ha, Ha.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Doooh! Thanks Dave; make me look like an idiot why don't you! Oh, sorry; I did that myself. 3000 feet; stupid, stupid, stupid; I'm such an idiot! Jeez, dumb, idiot, stupid moron...
Okay, okay...we'll set up a harpoon gun in the meadow; or a cannon. Yeah, a cannon; one of those circus cannons. Then we'll tie a rope to, to...a climber, yeah, that's it, a climber. If you volunteer we can call you Super Dave. Wait, that's been taken. How 'bout Super DUPER Dave? Yeah, that'll work. And you can wear an Evel Knevel suit...wait that's been taken too. Okay, you'll have to wear a clown suit instead. Will that work for you? If not, you can just choose your own outfit; but make it something nice. Then, we'll shoot you, Super Duper Dave, in your clown suit (or whatever you chose to wear for the occasion) to the summit. That will at least finally explain to the tourons how the rope gets up there.
Then, we'll take a bicycle and a sawed off angle...
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mtndncr
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I was just on OZ 2 weeks ago and was priveleged to have a beautiful sunny day. Most of you are well aware of the wet season Tuolumne is having and quick descents have been very common this year!
The author says the walk off is easy and if you have problems than you must be a lightweight???? He's right, the walk off isn't that hard, but if I was getting hammered w/rain, thunder, and lightning, or you were on the climb early in the season, the walk off is actually pretty hairy. I guess this doesn't justify bolts, but I haven't a clue where people get off chopping bolts to climbs that they have little or no history. Unfortunately, we have a small population of climbers who are idiots and think they are part of the solution. Would it be better to have 3 sets of rap anchors down the middle of Manure Pile buttress, instead of a descent that has been trampled to death??? Do these idiots really think about the environmental impacts before they act out? I wonder why someone like this is even on the forum since I've heard that real men don't use Supertopos??? I guess if your a lightweight, hopefully you aren't lucky enough to climb w/one of these losers???????
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Skinner
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nice point, I never thought that bolts could help out in a hariy storm or something. I always thought the first ascentionist's style was his style and he probably wouldn't mind if someone did it without bolts, in fact, I'm sure I'd encourage it, but to chop those bolts when you weren't in fact there to pioneer the route makes you disrespectful of those who had the balls to create a route, which you today take pleasure in.....as well as an asswipe...
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LMB
climber
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Just wanted to thank you guys for removing those midway anchors. They were ugly and dangerous (I wouldn't rap off that mess).
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dave
climber
Oceanside
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Wolf, I'm into the clown suit but with some depends sewn in, just in case, but a bicycle, I want a uni-cycle and rurps! Also I'm not sure about "Super Dooper Dave" how about Dangling dave? And lets get Jody to make the loads for the cannon! Lets Fly!!
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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There is some sort of easy joke in there, w/ the Depends and the super duper stuff, but I am just gonna walk away...
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Okay, a uni-cycle and RURPs it is. I'm pretty sure we could get Jody to make the loads for the cannon but you're on your own as far as the loads for the Depends. I can see the poster now:
Come one, come all! See the death defying daredevil doings of dangerous Danglin' Dave, as he rockets to the summit of the mighty El Capitan with Jody's load in his Depends! Watch as, laughing in the face of death (and wearing his custom made clown suit), he rides a uni-cycle along Potter's Slackline while juggling 16 RURPs, 2 Old E's, and a Pecker (oh, wait, that's the dangling part; maybe you shouldn't juggle THAT in public).
Okay, maybe we have to think this thing through a little bit more; it's kinda weird.
This show has not yet been rated; however, Parental Guidance is suggested. No one under 18 admitted without adult.
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DB
Social climber
yosemite
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Who in the hell are these ASSHOLE’S coming up to Tuolumne and pulling 1st ascent bolts on a route that 2 climbers spent weeks climbing in 1975? Dale and Bobo put their blood, sweat and tears into OZ and the route should be left as a testament to the old days.
What arrogant jerks! I will replace all the bolts with non-chopable Petzel Long Life stainless steel. And if I see their truck parked somewhere…………….
Hmmm, déjà vu of the old parking lot bolt wars of Kauk and Bachar in the 80’s. Wait until Dimitri hears about this.
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maculated
Trad climber
Danville, CA
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What they all said.
In other news, the debate rages on:
How do you say OZ?
Ounce?
O-Z?
Oz?
Pot-ay-to, Pot-ah-to. Last year everyone was saying Ounce, now everyone seems to be saying O-Z. Y tu?
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LMB
climber
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I really don't understand why ABC and others are getting angry over the removal of the midway anchor on OZ. And although I can't speak for either of the first ascentionists, I think they would be okay with the removal of an unecessary, ugly, and potentially dangerous anchor. The less bolts at belays on that route the better. There is no need for many of them and some on the route today are asca additions. OZ is an incredible route. I can't wait to climb it again and confront less bolts. Thanks max and james.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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That fact that James posted this here in the manner that he did as opposed to simply noting it on the appropriate route beta page makes it pretty clear he was boasting or at the very least looking for comments. I suppose that has as much to do with why people have reacted as they have as the actual act itself.
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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I am suprised that James has not come back to defend his actions, or as it may be, stir things up even more.
James, I hope you filled the holes you left. If your gonna pull bolts be sure to go the "extra mile" and do it right.
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mike
climber
tahoe city,ca
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"as well as anchor about 80' up the first pitch." Did you chop the top of Ice? More than likely they did. Clowns
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2003 - 10:11pm PT
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1.Yes, we are as#@&%es
2.No, we don't care what all you supertopos weenies think
3.The "bolt police" are simply those who decide to take action
4.It goes unspoken that any chopped holes should be filled
5.No bolts should exist anywhere in proximity to a crack which accepts gear
6.The very fact that you all have so much time to waste in front of your computer screen tells us that you have not spent one tenth of a percent as much time in the park as ourselves. Our relocation to a metropolitan area is simply because we have a combined 2 dollars in the bank, after months of tireless dirtbagging.
I could go on and on about our superiority, but, in the long run, why bother?
P.S.- For Sale: many rusty quarter inch hangers (historical background can be provided!)
P.S.S.- Of course it's on the forum, do you think that it was posted for your benefit? We just wanted to see what lame comments you losers would come up with....
Love and wet kisses,
James and Max
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Ah yes, Jim and Max send their love!
What's the matter, fun boys? Did those bolts get your panties in a bundle? Are you looking for a way to prove your "manliness"?
You mock people for "wasting time in front of their computers". Yes, some people waste time on the internet. Others waste time by chopping bolts. While other people MIND THEIR OWN GOD-DAMN BUSINESS!!!!
Why do soooooo many city-folk feel like they need to "prove themselves"? Especially when they are on vacation? Why do these simple-minded morons need to "leave their mark" in this world?
Why can't they just visit Yosemite, enjoy the views, climb a few routes, and then simply leave? Is that so difficult? In the future, PLEASE mind your own business. Seriously. People like you are the scum of the earth.
Next time you (or your life partner) are feeling insecure, seek professional help. Don't involve us.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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BCD...James was local. Don't know about Max. If you are going to flip out about us city folks, don't have it be over these two.
James and Max...I'm curious to know if you'd ever climbed OZ before you went up their with your hammers and pickle forks? Did you climb it knowing nothing of these bolts, make the choice for yourself that they were offensive, and go back and remove them? Or, did you hear Way or another self-proclaimed 'conscience of the Meadows' complain about them, so you went up there prepared to chop them on-sight? Did you talk to Bard or were you uninterested in knowing why he placed them or why he had specifically asked that they not be removed?
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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james craves attention, the classic symptom of lack of self-esteem.
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Kevin
Social climber
Oak-town
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right on with the bolt chopping!
if any lame ass wank gumby had put up oz (or anyone w/o less credibility than bard) had placed those bolts, they would have have been beat within an inch of their lives on the same day and the bolts would have been chopped
why are we beholden to the heroes of yesterday?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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"why are we beholden to the heroes of yesterday?"
Because they had the vision and took the time to establish the fine line that you would have been otherwise enjoying? Becasue they did it in a style that reflected the time in which the route was put up, and seeing reminders of that time makes us realize just how much bite our cams and sticky rubber take out of some of those old school routes? Because they are not dead and gone but probably are climbing harder than than the people who declare that their day in the sun has passed? Because they earned the respect of the people that consider them heros by committing deeds that spoke of there talent, boldness, and good judgement? Because it takes, as Ammon put it last time James played here, someone who thinks that they have "a pretty big pair" to decide that they are more justified in altering the purported hero of yesterday's route than he is in requesting that it be left as it was.
Still, I agree to some extent. A time can come when it would seem that the utility and reason for preserving an old style has passed. It seems like a slippery slope though...If you chop the bolts on OZ against FA wishes, can you justify adding bolts to run-out routes that used to be led with pitons? Should we chop bolted anchors on old routes with 90ft pitches? There was probably a reason why Bard requested that those bolts left alone. Maybe it was a lame one and his experience is irrelevant to his wishes. I'd be curious to know what it was about though.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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1.Yes, we are as#@&%es
DUH...
2.No, we don't care what all you supertopos weenies think
DUH...
but i think the real "weenie" has been quite apparent in many of james' previous posts.
3.The "bolt police" are simply those who decide to take action
LOL! james, you are such a man of action. i particularly enjoied the time you sprayed all about AM's faulty parenting skills and then ran for cover w/ your "weenie" tail between your legs (after he personally threatened your well being in this very forum!). that was classic, nice come back- action boy.
4.It goes unspoken that any chopped holes should be filled
it's also goes unspoklen that many observers would apparently expect less than par from someone w/ your apparent distain for anything but james.
5.No bolts should exist anywhere in proximity to a crack which accepts gear
so when are you chopping all the bolts on serenity & sons? CPoF? EBoEC? and can't we walk off of daff dome? when are you chopping those rap bolts? what about all the other similar cases? btw- what about the FA and their opinion(s)?
6.The very fact that you all have so much time to waste in front of your computer screen tells us that you have not spent one tenth of a percent as much time in the park as ourselves. Our relocation to a metropolitan area is simply because we have a combined 2 dollars in the bank, after months of tireless dirtbagging.
lots of other dirtbaggers are far more worthy of our collective respect, including dale bard. you are just on permanent light duty, action boy, and making noise is your own insecure little way of crying out for the attention you have been craving since you were a bed wetting punk in a crib (most of us got over that by the 9th grade).
I could go on and on about our superiority, but, in the long run, why bother?
go read some freud instead, dude.
P.S.- For Sale: many rusty quarter inch hangers (historical background can be provided!)
you are sooo cool!
P.S.S.- Of course it's on the forum, do you think that it was posted for your benefit? We just wanted to see what lame comments you losers would come up with....
i predict that someday there will be some really good stories about your mouth getting you into a mess you can't beg and backtrack your way out of...
Love and wet kisses,
James and Max
keep 'em for your cousins and their youngins
-Fc
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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James, you give bolt choppers a bad name.
Yur choppin the wrong bolts!
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DB
Social climber
yosemite
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Aug 11, 2003 - 10:52am PT
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Hi James and Max,
Be aware that next time you come up to TM you will not be welcome. Lincoln the climbing ranger has been informed of your heroic deeds. The rangers have been informed and they will be on the lookout for you as you swill in the parking lot and try to drive away to you illegal camping spot. Search and Rescue does not want you arrogant idiots around any more.
All of us local climbers will be on the look out for your black Chevy truck with Vermont license plates. BTW how long have you lived in California? If it is over 30 days the Rangers will be interested in why you still have Vermont registration.
So do us a favor and stay AWAY!
TM Local
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 11, 2003 - 12:53pm PT
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I'll hold my absolute opinion on this matter until I get on the route again. But with that in mind allow me to offer my rant.
I'm not sure I like the tone of James' post. It does seem a bit abbrasive. At the same time I'm not sure they did something as horrible as everyone is making it out to be.
I'm not sure I don't like the idea of some of those bolts going away. I've done the route twice - last year most recently - and I do remember wondering "WTF are those bolts there?!?!". Allow me a guess - in '75 the great Bardini probably had a rope no longer than 45 meters and we KNOW he had not a single spring on his rack (Ray released them springy things circa 1979). My guess is those mid-way belays were due to a shorter rope. But I'd also guess that since they were going into the unknown they chose "natural" belays. We, the lame-ass second-plus accentionist, KNOW the beta - we know what we are in for. They didn't. Maybe there were just a bit "conservative" in their FA approach.
Now clue me in - did I miss something - did all the bolts get replaced as well? Is that first pitch a bit more safe? If so then good work, if not then WTF were "you" doing up there "fixing" the route?
Ok, now here's a suggestion. I think the idea of having rap stations on Drug dome for that route is a reasonable idea. Instead of ya'll going after these guys maybe take the opportunity to install safe, LOGICAL, rap stations for the route? My guess is you won't be replacing that station part of the way up the crack if you do. The walk down isn't bad with no snow but I'm sure it's misserable with it. Though at the same time if you add a rap station who will go to the top of that thing and drool over Hobbit Book? ;-)
So... though his tone in the post probably deserved a bit of a flaming I'd have to say that ya'll should hold your opinion until you get on the route and see what he's done. And before you go taking it upon yourself to make it right again let's discuss it here, no?
And if you've never been on the route how can you offer much of an opinion?
Finally, though it's not obvious - it's pronounced ounce - think drugs people - Gram traverse, Sunsine (read liquid sunshine?)[which is a scarey route =-)].
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 11, 2003 - 01:12pm PT
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Thanks dingus.... I am an idiot. That'll teach me to type with no coffee. Will you make me an espresso before my next babble? No milk or sugar :-)
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LMB
climber
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Aug 11, 2003 - 02:44pm PT
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Bolt Choppers Suck-
Your post makes me sick. It is to bad you think telling rangers about this incident is helpful or appropriate. What was done on OZ by James and Max (James may be a dick) was nothing but a good thing. James' attitude about reporting it may be offensive, but that is exactly the way he wants it to sound. I am sure he is rolling hearing all you folks get your panties in a bunch over how much of an ass he is. Your just falling into his trap. Also, Mike you should know that the anchors midway up the first pitch are not the anchors of Ice. I was very bummed to see them there the first time I climbed the route and am thankful they are gone.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 12, 2003 - 12:55am PT
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James may be offensive, but that midway anchor in the dihedral was on the official ASCA "to chop" list after we talked with Dale Bard last year (before we replaced a couple bolts, didn't have time to get to those or the last pitch bolts). It was not original. The anchor half way up the first pitch is for a "new" route which may be a retrobolt of a Dimitri Barton 5.11+ X route that was chopped by Bachar and friends along with a couple other rap bolted routes on the wall (the 11+ X route was ground-up, but it got included in the mass chopping). Dimitri is working on a new route way to the right, and he has a pile of my specialized 3/8" 5-piece sleeve pulling tools to go clean up the chopped bolts on various routes, he's not sure what he'll do with the apparent retrobolt (since whoever did it likely did not know there was a chopped 11+ X route over there).
James and Max, if you get a chance, please chop the three 1/4" bolts on Braille Book, Bridwell confirmed that they are not original and that they were added at least 7 years after the FA.
And please talk to active locals in Tuolumne before doing more chopping, some bolts ought to be removed, but it should be done in a respectful manner after confirming the facts with the FA team. I have chopped non-FA bolts on Regular Route on Fairview, South Crack, Great White Book, and others, but not without first talking to FA teams or people who know the story. Explain your actions and stand by them, but don't piss everyone off, because sooner or later the mass of gym-educated climbers who expect "safety" could start retrobolting everything in sight. Some spots in Europe have entirely bolted cracks, sometimes even with rocks glued in the cracks for good footholds! We have to educate people, not offend them, if we want to avoid that sort of retrobolting.
Greg
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 12, 2003 - 09:53am PT
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Greg,
Thanks so much for clearing things up. Some how I knew there was way more to this story. Maybe one day you should get into politics - it was as heated in this thread as it is in the middle-east.
You wrote: 'and he has a pile of my specialized 3/8" 5-piece sleeve pulling tools to go clean up.'
Can you explain what this is/means? I'd like to see the mechanics behind such a beast and how it works (figured I'd start on the El Cap TR only project *grin*). Actually, we've got some old holes around here in AZ that need some cleaning up.
Thanks again,
Doug
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 12, 2003 - 12:35pm PT
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Hey Doug,
pulling the sleeves on 5-pieces is pretty simple, except getting the sleeve itself out, which is where the tools come in. Basically: unscrew the bolt, remove the hanger and washer (blow out hole), screw just the bolt back in a few turns, give it one sharp tap with the hammer (unseats the cone from the sleeve), unscrew the bolt. Now, use needle nose pliers to get out the upper sleeve if it's a long one ("6-piece"), if that upper sleeve hasn't already fallen out. For the lower (main) sleeve, there's several techniques:
1) hook - make some small hook that you can fish around for the sleeve with. I made one just out of a big piece of copper wire I found on the ground somewhere, but my friend made a much better hard steel hook. That works pretty well, especially in combo with a pair of pliers to work the hooked sleeve out.
2) drive a thin steel pin or a nail in along the seam in the sleeve, which curls it in, and after a couple times the sleeve should be easy to pull with pliers.
3) special expanding tool: Mike White made some of these, a couple pieces of thin steel which are bent to hooks at the end (actually just bent horizontal, not curved around like a fish hook), then uses a retractable piece to expand them. You place in the hole, fish around until you find the gaps in the sleeve, then push the center piece in which expands the other two. From there, use pliers on the extractor to work the sleeve and extractor out. I need to take pics of them and put them on line somewhere, I'm sure I'm botching the explanation.
If the bolts are way rusty, the sleeves tend to disintegrate as you're trying to pull them, but then it's easy to fish out the fragments.
Once the sleeve is out, blow out the hole again, then screw the bolt back in with a beater hanger, and use a funkness device to yank out the cone.
Hopefully more folks will start using stainless bolts, because the above procedure is going to become all too familiar to rebolters in 20-30 years as bolts going in today need replacement due to excessive rusting. I've seen threads rusted to nearly nothing on Owens anchors less than 10 years old, and they never had rusted heads like many 5-pieces have in wetter climates...
Greg
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 12, 2003 - 04:15pm PT
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Dingus,
the ASCA replaces old nasty bolts. We ought to figure out which ones are original. We should chop excess bolts at anchors (i.e. replace three 1/4" bolts with two 3/8" stainless). We should replace doubled 1/4" protection bolts with a single modern bolt. Pretty much everyone agrees on that. So what to do with other non-original old manky bolts?
Chris Mac disagrees with me on the "old bolts that are added or not needed with modern gear" issue. He thinks we should just leave them to avoid controversy. I think that we should remove them since they are basically trash on the wall, and they are also dangerous to climbers foolish enough to trust them. Besides, the rust from old bolts kills lichen in Tuolumne (many old bolts in black streaks can be found by looking for little vertical white lines).
I think old bolts should either be replaced or removed. If we call up Dale Bard to ask about replacing an anchor and he says it's not original, we can either replace it, ignore it, or remove it. Replacing it would be a slap in the face to the guy you just asked about the FA bolts. I don't like the middle option since it leaves potentially dangerous and ugly trash on the wall, so I choose the third and remove excess old bolts.
If bolt replacement folks are handicapped by a "any bolt that is there must be left there" rule, then bolts will accumulate on the walls. Might as well be the folks taking responsibility to replace old mank that also take the responsibility to remove bolts that shouldn't be replaced. As anyone who replaces old bolts knows, no matter what you do, some people will be pissed at you. So why leave old junk that the modern climbing community generally agrees ought to be removed, just out of fear of a reaction, especially since you'll have clueless folks spreading rumors about all the bolts you added anyway?
But we're not exactly "policing" things and removing modern bolts that someone added to a route, etc. There's a huge difference there. Besides, two out of the three members of the ASCA board of directors disagree on the issue (haven't asked Jeremy what he thinks)...and you don't have much to worry about as far as the massive infrastructure of Big Brother corporate ASCA chopping bolts left and right and policing the vertical world...
Greg
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 12, 2003 - 04:28pm PT
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I'm not necessarily talking about OZ but more Greg's last post. It seems to me that distinction between ASCA deciding to replace a three ancient bolt anchor w/ 2 stainless fatties or replace twin pro bolts one new one is not even remotely similar to removing an anchor or a lead bolt all together. It's not to say that I don't think that there is a time and place for removing things altogether, it just seems a bit beyond what I understood the mission of ASCA to be.
Maybe "Greg" can chop bolts that he finds offensive and "ASCA" (which is likely to be Greg acting on behalf of the ASCA) can replace originals? The distinction is subtle and the outcome with respect to the rock is the same. However, if I happen to be in favor of replacing bolts, but not chopping non-FA bolts that have nonetheless stood the test of time wrt the community and/or FA desire to see them removed, I can still send my check to the ASCA w/o thinking that I'm going to be supporting the feared bolt police state.
I really applaud the FA research that you guys do though before getting involved in a replacement where the details are fuzzy.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 13, 2003 - 02:10am PT
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Well said, Greg.
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Aug 13, 2003 - 12:25pm PT
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DMT-
from where i am typing, it seems like the ASCA puts lots of energy into the thoughtful replacement of old and unsafe fixed protection, during the course of which they are in contact w/ many FA'ists WRT many climbs in many climbing areas...
...seems like a no brainer that they would have to make a list every now and then, just to keep it all straight.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Aug 13, 2003 - 01:16pm PT
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I'm with Greg on this one. Whether the ASCA has a "chop" list or not on paper does not really matter. Extra non FA bolts should go. Better the researched, clean and scarless removal of these bolts than some A-hole with crowbar and no research.
And as usual, I'm not sure what Mellissa was mumbling about..... probably a byproduct of my low SAT scores.
adios,
Russ
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2003 - 01:47pm PT
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Ditto me too, I'm with Greg's response.
If your replacing old bolts with new ones, you have to decide what to take and what to leave. If the bolts aren't part of the original FA (or if they are but are in a bad place and the FA agrees that they should be gone...), then, pull and patch, nice. Make the route cleaner.
It think what the ASCA is doin' is a great service. FA folks "usually" won't make or take the time (for whatever reason) to maintain "their" routes...so, its nice other folks are.
Thanks!!
Brian in SLC
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Aug 13, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Russ,
I had a decent SAT score, but I can never figure out what Melissa is talking about either.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2003 - 03:09pm PT
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That Melissa is a smarty...but...I never took the SAT (ACT I think, and did ok)...
I think its good that the ASCA does more than just bolt replacement on a route. After all, there they are. If there are especially old, unsafe and unnecessary bolts which weren't part of the FA, why not get 'em outa there?
Writin' my check to the ASCA as we speak...
Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 13, 2003 - 07:38pm PT
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Russ Walling, owner of the Fish Tank, you and your free booze are evil. I'm still hung over from the Phoenix Bouldering Comp from 2002. Evil, simply evil :-). Oh, my friend in the green fish hat also thinks you are evil. But don't stop, no no, don't stop. The more people the merrier.
I'm leaning towards the Greg side of things on this one though I will admit I do very much see where Dingus is coming from . I cannot say his stance has no validity.
SAT, ACT, fuzzy... It all is clear to me now.
VLP!!!!
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 13, 2003 - 08:25pm PT
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Um...I guess I was agreeing w/ Dingus and Greg. Since different ASCA $$$ donators are going to have different ideas about what constitutes an "unnecessary" bolt, I think it would be less controversial (i.e. expensive) if "Greg" chopped bolts and the "ASCA" replaced them.
Russ, if your SAT was lower than mine you must have been trying to do poorly. I guess I edit my posts for clarity until they are a confusing run-on bunch of garbage sometimes.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Aug 14, 2003 - 12:12am PT
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I like to leave the controversial bolts alone.
To explain why ill break out a little asca history…
The first time i replaced a bolt was on chopping/cleaning mission. Singer and I went up on Zenyatta Mondatta in 1997 with the goal of "restoring the route to its original condition." We chopped about 5 lead bolts, removed 90+ copperheads, and removed about 30 bolts from belays replacing them with 13 3/8”
We were all fired up on our job well done and decided to do the same to the PO Wall a month later. Just as we were getting ready to blast off we realized we left the canned Manderin Oranges in the car so I ran back to the Meadow. There I saw some people racking up for the PO and warned them “I hear the PO wall has been cleaned, you might want to bring some extra heads.” At which point one of the climbers turned red and, not knowing who I was, said “F*#k. It must be that dammed Chris Mc…McWhatever screwing up another route!”
Being a total wimp, I took that as my cue to walk away as quickly as possible.
After about 8 pitches of cleaning heads Singer said he wasn’t into this whole cleaning heads and chopping bolts thing anymore and on pitch 10 I began to agree. For the rest of the climb and ever since then I have been more into just replacing bolts then trying to alter routes back to what I consider the FA condition.
There is so much work that needs to be done at climbing areas: replacing non-controversial bolts, picking up trash, minimizing trail erosion, keeping good relations with land managers. At the same time, there is so little time among the very few volunteers that do this work. I think the most efficient use of time and energy of anyone who is trying to give back to the climbing community is to stay away from controversy. Sure it’s a dodging a tough issue, but doing so allows more time and energy for the type of work that all climbers can benefit from.
I’m glad that in the nearly 5000 bolts the ASCA has replaced probably less than 1% have been controversial. I think its because we generally avoid entering into controversy that we are able to get the support to replace so many bolts.
So, all that said. I'm glad that Greg disagrees with me. When different views are present in an organization, it leads to better and more critical discussion and, hopefully, wiser actions.
I'm personally glad those OZ bolts are gone. One of the best 5.10 cracks in tuolumne is now ever more aesthetic. i'm also glad it wasn't anyone associated with the ASCA that chopped them.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 17, 2003 - 10:28pm PT
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OK Dingus, you caught me - our "official chop list" is only in my head, currently consisting of 10 bolts on 3 routes that the FA/FFA has confirmed that bolts were added/from the aid ascent and not wanted. Namely, Braille Book and North Buttress (not DNB) of Middle Cathedral, and Hyperion at Josh. Since there's no way I'm going up on Braille Book with a hammer and pulling gear anytime soon, and since I'm still looking for a partner for North Buttress (which needs the original bolt replaced), it's not much of an issue. Next winter we hope to do some replacement in the North Wonderland at Josh, and Hyperion supposedly has a broken Leeper hanger on one of the two 1/4" anchor bolts. About 30' below the anchor, at a 3-3.5"" crack section, is a 1/4" bolt from the FA that the FFA (John Long) wants removed. Obviously from pre-cam era.
Also, to be fair, there's a string of old fixed heads at the crux of Tombstone, right across the way, and Yaniro and Leavitt both agree that we ought to clean all of them and replace with a bolt or two (along with replacing all the other 1/4" bolts on the route). So that's on our official "to add" list, although of course we'd be reducing the number of fixed pieces on the climb.
The amusing thing about the whole OZ debate is that I just talked to Mike Waugh, who did OZ just after the FA. That anchor in the corner that just got chopped (and initiated this whole thread) was actually the ONLY ORIGINAL bolted anchor on the whole thing (I suspected that the anchor on top of the crux pitch was not the original anchor that Dale Bard said was there, especially since a couple people told me Walt Shipley added it). Mike thought that the corner anchor should have been pulled since the whole reason it was there was because they were farting around with nuts and small hexes trying to protect the corner, and with modern cams the bolts are unneeded.
So, anyway, that would go towards the concept that no one should be involved in removing bolts since everyone might be wrong about what was original...
Greg
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Aug 18, 2003 - 03:11pm PT
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"there's a string of old fixed heads at the crux of Tombstone, right across the way, and Yaniro and Leavitt both agree that we ought to clean all of them and replace with a bolt or two (along with replacing all the other 1/4" bolts on the route). So that's on our official "to add" list, although of course we'd be reducing the number of fixed pieces on the climb."
Greg:
The Tombstone project is very worthy. I am sure that you will be replacing the bolted anchor/rap on top of the formation as well as it is very dangerous. The Northern Wonderland is still filled with a lot of old 1/4 bolts....
I am in general agreement with removing non-original bolts from routes, even if they have been in situ for many years. At Tahquitz, the bolt on Mechanics Route (which was added on the 4th ascent in the late 30s or early 40s) finally broke a few years back and was not replaced despite nearly 60 years of use; the guidebook rating was changed to R and the history explained.
As I stated in another post, Piece de Resistance has lots of very bad bolts; also, it seems to have a least one protection bolt on the 2nd pitch that was added in more recent times (unecessary as it is next to a crack). Maybe it won't become a trade route, but it would be nice if the bolts were replaced.
Hats off to you for all your hard work; I'll have to make another donation!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 18, 2003 - 03:46pm PT
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Thanks looking sketchy..., Piece is high on the list for Fairview (along with Sea of Knobs area on Sorcerer's, plus a variety of other stuff like first pitch of Fiddler on the Roof). Not sure if we'll get to it anytime soon...
Greg
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DB
Social climber
yosemite
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Aug 19, 2003 - 03:15pm PT
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The bolt choppers real names are;
James C. Lucas and Maxwell Silver Hasson
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 19, 2003 - 04:24pm PT
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What, did you just arrest them or something? Let's see some ID.
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Aug 19, 2003 - 05:16pm PT
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BCS,
Perhaps your name should be Bolting Cop Sucker.
Your post from several days ago about notifying the authorities and now this latest show that it is you who should be run out of TM.
These issues need to be dealt with within the community. If you are childishly frustrated now because everyone won't do things your way, believe me, it will be much worse for you when your kind of actions lead to more government control of climbing.
We need to keep this war cold. Ideally we should discuss the issues calmly, but if you can't, then add some slander and name-calling (I do), but don't involve the rangers dumbass, because you'll just hasten the day when we have wilderness permits for big walls, a first ascent approval process, an outright ban of bolting in national parks, a certification requirement, etc.
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Aug 20, 2003 - 03:48pm PT
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Loom makes some excellent points that should be noted.
Someone may not agree with the actions of select individuals, but let's take the high road as a group before an agency decides we can't handle ourselves. Broadcasting personal information about people who otherwise have not made it available does not make our group look very good - especially coming from someone who chooses to be anonymous. Let's keep it above board and minimize the geurilla tactics - IMHO it's the best route to credibility and the strongest possible hand in negotiating.
Thanks in advance, and thanks to everyone who weighs in on important climbing issues; that's what makes it a "community".
Mike (Ousley)
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Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Aug 20, 2003 - 04:51pm PT
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Ah, the fruits of being abrassive, arrogant, and an as#@&%e.... Sure have stirred up some interesting debate here on the forum. Though organizations such as ASCA have brought some order to the bolting business, climbing is largely an anarchy. I support a "community" of concerned climbers, as forums such as this have created, however, action must be taken by someone, and it's impossible to please everybody.
I believe in the purity of rock climbing, and though I recognize the necessity of bolts, and use them regularly, I think there should be as few as possible. If I have to take a couple more cams or nuts, that's fine. If I have to walk down in the pouring rain with no approach shoes and two broken arms, well that's just great! As the pioneer of clean climbing, Yvon Chouinard, has said, climbing is about risk. It is a true sport, and one must accept those risks, and deal with the consequences. A storm could roll in, a knob could break, your pro could fail, or you could simply find yourself unable to complete a climb that's at your limit. Every climber is an individual, we don't pay fees, sign waivers, or rely on lottery systems to do what we want, and that is beautiful. Hopefully that never changes.
I (Max) had climbed OZ about a month before the chopping mission, and was appaled by these extraneous bolts. How could one of the most pure corners in the whole park be scarred in such a fashion? Short ropes and archaic equipment were valid excuses 25 years ago, but are inadequate today. If historic preservation is such a concern, why should ASCA replace anything? Lets just leave all rusty bolts and wait until people start dying from anchor failure! Who care's if they're dangerous, I want to see Harding's original stardryves! No, that's rediculous people, and if those bolts hadn't been chopped, I'm sure they would've eventually failed. Furthermore, after all the talk of not researching and consulting with first ascentionists, it turns out Dale wanted them gone! Ha!
Anyway, I apologize if those first anchors were part of someone's route. They were not a part of the plan, but I couldn't let myself leave them there, as there was no apparent route above or below. Also, one can get natural protection in the crack to the left. Someone asked if the first pitch was made safer, but I'm not sure what they mean, as there aren't any bolts, and it can be lead quite safely. The real first pitch anchor, by the way, can be rapped with one rope, which is helpful when waiting behind slow parties.
Greg, Sorceror's Apprentice could certainly use some work. Will and Drew did a great job making it more or less safe, but the job could be finished. I had heard that the one bolt on the 5.9 pitch is not original, and that the FA party went back up to chop it, but got too gripped and ended up using it instead. Also, there is a route not in the guidebook that goes right from the top of the .11a pitch with 3 old bolts. We got off route on this, and I wonder if anyone knows what it is...
Finally, to adress BCS and those of his/her ilk. As much as I love stirring controversy and being referred to as a "hooded vigilante", your responses went a bit far in retaliation. Why any true local would ever notify rangers is quite beyond me, they are our mortal enemies, and collaboration with them should be avoided at all costs. I agree with Minerals and Loom's points on the matter. Why do you post such information about me (not that I really care who knows my name), and then remain anonymous yourself. I am fully prepared to accept criticism about my "controversial" actions, and if it was possible, I would gladly stand up for them in person. However, these weak acts of ill will prove only that you are more of a coward than I.
Well, I don't think I could possibly cover everything I wanted to say, but I sure tried. Long live bolt choppers!
Love,
Max
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 20, 2003 - 05:53pm PT
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"They are our mortal enemies, and collaboration with them should be avoided at all costs."
If by "our" you are talking about climbers or locals, I think Link has more credability as both than either of you.
Here's hint everyone...there is no need to actually call the rangers. Link et al. already read this forum. If you post it here, you've called the rangers.
If you say "hit me" over and over to someone that you've already pissed off, I don't think that you can cry fowl when you get a black eye.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2003 - 05:22pm PT
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Bolt Choppers Suck
for the record my name is not James C. Lucas
It is JAMES CHEWBACCA LUCAS and my father is the original Darth Vader. If you do not succumb to my Jedi Mind tricks then my father will crush you and all your ranger friends.......
with his wallet!
Perhaps I can get an ASCA ruling but I'm 99% positive bolt chopping is not illegal
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 21, 2003 - 05:30pm PT
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Legally, bolts are considered "abandoned property" and it is not illegal to chop them. This has already gone to court at least once.
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boardlasted
Social climber
marin, CA
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Aug 22, 2003 - 11:41pm PT
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Hi!
My names is James C Lucas, my email is:
bigwalljames@yahoo.com
I deserve to get my ass kicked for what I did on Oz.
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Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Aug 23, 2003 - 05:17pm PT
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Arggghhh! I try to calm down and spread the word of reason, but to no avail.
You are all such tools!!!
Dingus, (an appropriate moniker for such a dick) first I would like to know who you are. The highly offensive bolt choppers reveal there identity from day one, yet all you tools continue to remain anonymous, what the f*#k?
I have no fear of whatever results from my being an as#@&%e (that post, by the way, was authored by my hand), but any local, as I suspect you are NOT, knows that rangers are not people to trust or confer with. Even Link, who I see no reason to slander or deface, he seems like a great person on the climbers' side, is still A TOOL! If you wear the badge and the uny, you're A F*#KING TOOL! I don't care if they read it, as I did nothing illegal, or, in my humble opinion, wrong.
So go ahead, Cunilingus Weenieroast, quote the f*#k out of my post and breakdown the slander, you seem to be exceptionally adept at it. As for boardlasted, who the f*#k are you and what right have you to say sh#t about this discussion, do you even know where Tuolomne is???,
you f*#king TOOL
Love,
Maxwell Silver Hasson
SS#859-24-4598
P.O. Box 122
Yosemite, CA
95389
DLN#7389378
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Wade Icey
climber
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Aug 23, 2003 - 11:10pm PT
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hey max- you seem like a brilliant specimen. could we also have your atm PIN# and your mom's maiden name? Some of us locals would like to make a deposit in your account.
Proud to be associated with locals Like you,
Wade
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LMB
climber
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Aug 23, 2003 - 11:55pm PT
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Wow Max, brilliant writing. Dingus Milktoast, though I know nothing of your true character, you do seem to be a huge TOOL.
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 24, 2003 - 12:08pm PT
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Max,
Well said.
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DB
Sport climber
Mars
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Aug 24, 2003 - 04:15pm PT
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James and Max,
Please leave the bolt chopping to people whom we can respect like John Bachar or Peter Croft, not some rookie climbers like yourselves. The bolts will be replaced. It is easy to drill out your epoxy or whatever you used to fill the holes and place in new bolts. If they are Rawl 5 piece, the bolts will be replaced with PC7 and the edges rounded off so they cant be removed. If new holes are required, the new bolts will be Petzel Pin Long Life. These cannot be removed.
Your next course of action would be to bend over the hangers and that would make you real as#@&%es.
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LMB
climber
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Aug 24, 2003 - 07:28pm PT
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DB-
Why would you replace the bolts with the unremovable type when the first ascentionist doen't even want them there anymore? Furthermore, why would you want to forever scar one of the most beautiful corners in all of yosemite national park? Please, use your head before heading out to OZ on a replacement mission.
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Flash
Ice climber
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Aug 24, 2003 - 08:08pm PT
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I will laugh my butt off if climbing areas get closed and rangers start harrassing climbers more because of bolt-chopping escapades like these. Even though there are bolt-choppers on both sides of the argument in this thread, all of you get what you deserve for acting like you are the moral compass of rock-climbing ethics.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 25, 2003 - 11:44am PT
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even funnier is that max does seem to care what the supertaco weenies have to say. did somebody get their knickers in a bit of a twist?
and damn dingus, who are you to be talking smack?! When was the last time you put up a hard route in the backcountry? Oh? Sorry.
what about a bolted route? oh? sorry there too.
Trad? err... nevermind.
Alpine? sheesh. my bad.
And the worst is that Dingus is willing to climb with BRUTUS aka bruce bidner. NOW THAT'S PROOF HE'S A NUTTER.
Jason
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The O
Social climber
Yosemite via N.Y.
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James and Max... You two are nothing but Small Wall Pink Velvet Sausage Wallets.... Please present this voucher to the Huff House for a free ass whoopin. If I catch sight of you two lil' monkeys there will be hell to pay... Being as disrespectful as the two of you have been will catch up to you ten-fold. Peace
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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How can you say "Peace" when you just said that you're going to kick their asses? Pick a side, dude...
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Ah, bolt wars...just like the olden times at the Gunks!!!!!
Now who wants to come over and help us scrub chalk off the Mac Wall on Saturday????
Irish
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NB
climber
Portland
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I for one am sad to see those two bolts go. When I was lucky enough to get to do the second on OZ with Bobo, we belayed off them. It was very difficult to get #3 hexes in that crack. They are not really necessary, but they were original. By the way you know that the lower face pitch bolts were the start of a bolt ladder put in by Warren Harding that's why by Meadows standards it is so well protectrd.
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zen ben
Trad climber
Tuolumne Meadows
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To James and Max,
Now that we all know what bad-asses you guys are lets address the real subject at hand. This act of bolt chopping was done for the wrong reason. Don't expect me to believe that you guys chopped those bolts because they were unnecessary. You chopped them in a feeble attempt to boost your egos while trying to get the locals stirred up. I'll give it to you, in your short time in Tuoulmne you managed to piss almost everyone off. If this is your idea of getting noticed it's on a quite negative note. Tuoulmne is a serene place and I think that you monkeys are a bit too "spray-oriented" for it. Oh and by the way, I'm willing to bet that those bolts (the 3/8" ones) have most likely been replaced already....thanks, but no thanks.
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bobh
climber
Bishop, California
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Removal of these anchors seems like a good idea. They weren't located in a good spot to belay, weren't necesary for protection, and cluttered one of the better pitches in Tuolumne. Old and rusty, but not old enough for the Antiquities Act.
Additionally, it's better to encourage parties to top out rather than rap from the top of the corner so as to avoid traffic jams ala Crimson Chrysalis.
Put aside the posing and personalities of the guys that did the deed; good ridance to these unnecessary bolts.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2003 - 09:43pm PT
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I appreciate all your remarks...being labeled as brash, arrogant, unlawful, etc. makes me feel like I'm one step closer to becoming one of my Toulumne and Valley heroes....
Bachar
thanks
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Let me guess:
You're the type of guy who ALWAYS has to have the last word, huh?
Well, for your sake I hope you have the skill to back up that mouth. Being a sh#t-talking guy climber won't get you any closer to "hero" status.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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James, you are a moron. Learn how to spell.
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nature
climber
some other life
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Nov 14, 2003 - 01:45pm PT
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Max,
Very recently I ran into a mutual friend of ours. I've got a lot of respect for his opinions. I asked him in particular about the aforementioned deed. Once again I have to say "Thank You". Though I've yet to see your work our friend tells me it was a job well done.
Cheers...
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Nov 14, 2003 - 04:09pm PT
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the worst thing about this forum is how people refuse to ignore the lame-ass threads and thus perpetuate them (he says as he perpetuates another lame ass thread)...
f*#king dood just wants attention
why pony up?
i beg that we let this one die (again)
peaceout
-matt
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2004 - 09:26pm PT
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Bolt Choppers Suck-
Just wanted to let you know that the Black Chevy S10 now has California Plates...I finally conned some ancient mechanic into smogging it for me...watch out!
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Feb 19, 2004 - 10:52pm PT
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Oh look!
James has revived his own thread!
After beating it to DEATH three months ago, he feels the need to attract even MORE attention to himself.
Again.
Whats the matter James? Are you feeling insecure again? Did you and your life-partner Max break up?
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clustiere
Trad climber
phoenix ,az
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Feb 20, 2004 - 02:18pm PT
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James is like a angry teenager just dont give him the attention and he will go kick his dog or beat his girlfriend instead of waste our time here on the ST site.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Hilarity bump.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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Wow.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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I was wondering when someone was going to bump it because this thread was mentioned on the enormocast
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 25, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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thanks for the bump lol
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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Greg or any historian who might know.....
Question
Has anyone ever found out who actually did the first ascent that would later be called Oz?
I was there watching from the talus when Dale discovered the bolts that traverse left to the corner.
It was a remarkable moment.
That thing was so intimidating back then.
Seems cool and appropriate that it gets cleaned up - it is so beautiful!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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Not that I know of. Heard rumor that people thought it might have been Harding but that he said he hadn't done it?
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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Awesome!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 26, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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The first time i replaced a bolt was on chopping/cleaning mission. Singer and I went up on Zenyatta Mondatta in 1997 with the goal of "restoring the route to its original condition." We chopped about 5 lead bolts, removed 90+ copperheads, and removed about 30 bolts from belays replacing them with 13 3/8”
We were all fired up on our job well done and decided to do the same to the PO Wall a month later. Just as we were getting ready to blast off we realized we left the canned Manderin Oranges in the car so I ran back to the Meadow. There I saw some people racking up for the PO and warned them “I hear the PO wall has been cleaned, you might want to bring some extra heads.” At which point one of the climbers turned red and, not knowing who I was, said “F*#k. It must be that dammed Chris Mc…McWhatever screwing up another route!”
Being a total wimp, I took that as my cue to walk away as quickly as possible.
Real gem
6.The very fact that you all have so much time to waste in front of your computer screen tells us that you have not spent one tenth of a percent as much time in the park as ourselves. Our relocation to a metropolitan area is simply because we have a combined 2 dollars in the bank, after months of tireless dirtbagging.
I could go on and on about our superiority, but, in the long run, why bother?
P.S.- For Sale: many rusty quarter inch hangers (historical background can be provided!)
P.S.S.- Of course it's on the forum, do you think that it was posted for your benefit? We just wanted to see what lame comments you losers would come up with....
Love and wet kisses,
James and Max
LOL! At least I am reading this sh#t at work...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 26, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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I f*#king love it. Love every bit of it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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I'm not a big fan of the climbing in the Meadows but Oz is a wonderful climb, as good as they get.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 26, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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9 year old thread? lol
Climbing is a small world. I have no idea if the OP did it a favor or not with his actions. But I did learn way back as a young gung-ho dirtbagger that you never know who you are talking to and who is watching you.
Most of the old crusty bad asses give the kids a bit of slack for being rude, cocky and brash ..cuase many were that way themselves.
But eventually the kids have to learn some real respect and common courtesy. They may wonder why their peers who are seemingly wimpier than they are get opportunities and assistance and they don't.
A funny old thread and people do grow up.
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Brian
climber
California
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Greg's no doubt bumping this after hearing James on the Enormocast, so rather than keep you guys on topic, I'll point you all to this incredible resource: http://enormocast.com/
The Enormocast is awewome. And the most recent episode features two of Supertaco's current front-page idols:
James, of 9-year-old bolt chopping fame on the OZ, "redpoint" soloist, and dance machine
Chris, "undercover bonecrusher," steward of Indian Creek, Rifle sandbagger, former (now recovering) hard aid aficionado of the Captain and the Fishers, and recent redpointer of Castleton's new route
OK, go check it out: http://enormocast.com/
Brian
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Greg that is the story I remember...
So the mystery continues!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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Haha yup, Enormo-bump.
This place is great for little social experiments...
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 26, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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Bombs on an Airplane, to
AIDS in a gay bar, to
Bolt-Chop on a climbing forum?
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Matt's
climber
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Apr 27, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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bump for funny stuff
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 28, 2013 - 12:14am PT
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Gawdamn, I just got a hernia reading posts 61-80 and laughing!
This is a truly historical thread and a Supertopo classic! Even if James and what's his name were first class Dickheads about their interactions here.
Edit: I guess neither one of them turned out to be Honnold or Sharma or Bachar?
Is this the same James that "cleaned" Midnight Lightning?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 28, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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He should erase that shitty cable route on the back of Half Dome if he wants some real attention.
Or how about that Rap Bolted Sean Jones route "Growing Down" on the South Face of Half Dome?
Now there's a manly project worthy of a TRUE puritan.
C'mon James, step up your game. Where's Max by the way?
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Squamish
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Apr 28, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Funny to be sure, but... who are these people who go mining this s**t from the depths of the Supertopo Data Storage Caverns? You really need to go climbing.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Ryan d dug it up lou! I guess he thought it relevant since James's latest cry for attention.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Apr 28, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
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Those bolts were actually an old Dimitri Barton first ascent that climbed the face to the right of the crack then met up with the OZ crack. It was just really run out so they did not appear to be the junction of a route with OZ. They had survived the previous bolt wars because the line was proud and Dimitri tough. Put up on lead.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Oz is on the list this year for sure.. If those bolts aren't back, we will be bringing the drill. To honor Dimitri.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Apr 28, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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some people get a kick out of being a dill weed,
manic depressive maybe? masochist?
sure, i screw stuff up,
then i blog about it so people will hate me,
frequently.
that is, on a daily basis
what kind of a jackwagon is this guy, anyway?
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Apr 28, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
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I was just clarifying. No threats are needed. The bolts are already gone, no need to scar the rock and the beautiful climb anymore.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 28, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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Scooter they are talking about james and his midnight lightning removal
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 28, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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what kind of a jackwagon is this guy, anyway?
Dr.....Dr.....Dr.......tsk tsk tsk....
The proper term is Jaggamuffin. Say it with me now, Jaggamuffin.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 29, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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A true POS that James is.....
To bad Intersection Rock didn't end his existence here on earth.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 29, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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This has probably been brought up in this string somewhere above already, but the bolts that James removed on Oz where placed by unknown first ascentionists who aided Oz many years before Dale Bard and Bob Locke did the FFA. Some have said the Harding did the line way back when, but that has been denied by some. In any event, Oz had those bolts installed long, long ago. I do know that when Dale and Bob got up to the 3rd crux face pitch (5.10d) they encountered a bolt ladder there that let them free that section without drilling. I think Dale added one bolt to the ones that were already in place.
Someone must know the true history of the Oz dihedral? Such a prominent line must have been done during the 60s by someone. Just hard to miss seeing Oz from the Tioga Road.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 29, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
Apr 28, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Those bolts were actually an old Dimitri Barton first ascent that climbed the face to the right of the crack then met up with the OZ crack. It was just really run out so they did not appear to be the junction of a route with OZ. They had survived the previous bolt wars because the line was proud and Dimitri tough. Put up on lead.
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| Messages 1 - 109 of total 109 in this topic |
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