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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 19, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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I was reading this and wondered if it is still accurate. I think so . . .
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"Since as far back as the mid-1970s, the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader. This sounds almost laughable. After all, 5.11 is only borderline expert terrain nowadays. But in fact, there are very few climbers who can go to Yosemite and on-sight lead Twilight Zone (run out off-size crack), Tightrope (run out slab), Edge of Night (difficult flare) Center Route on Independence Pinnacle (thin hands), Final Exam (fist crack), Spooky Tooth (steep and scary face), 1096 (squeeze chimney), and Waverly Wafer (wide to lyback) – and none of these routes are harder than 5.10. Believe it: The climber who has mastered all of those techniques at the 5.11 level is exceptional, and those climbing wide to thin to face, all at the 5.12 standard, number very few in any country."
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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For sure- it's always funny to hear someone proclaim they're 5.12 CLIMBER when they've just ticked off a few steep sport routes.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
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I believe that's true. Being really solid at any grade implies mastering all climbing techniques and skills at that grade and that's probably fairly rare at 5.11.
Curt
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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true
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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The climber who has mastered all of those techniques at the 5.11 level is exceptional
I have one or two candidates at this level... though I'm not sure if they are that broad...
at the 5.12 standard... very few
I don't have any candidates at this level...
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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that is so true -
wait, did you just create a new valley hardman list ?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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Seems right to me. Those who can do it all at 5.11 are not common. Not at all unheard of for sure. But that is a VERY solid climbing all around level.
Take out offwidth and slab and I'd say waaay more common. Throw in pulling on a peice here and there.. lotsa folks then.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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Seems like folks are getting on stuff like VMC Direct Direct pretty much every weekend.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Aug 19, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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That's an impressive list for sure but it's Valley centric. I've always held the belief that you had to be solid in the grade on any type rock/at any location to make claims.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 19, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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Funny stuff... I just did a new 5.11+ pocket climb (bolted) in the San Luis Valley...the kid with me cruise it...not so on the 5.10+ hand and fist crack that we did that day to. Hung like a monkey the whole way up.
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bullfrog
Trad climber
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Aug 19, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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It's funny but true. Look at grade inflation, the need to sell magazines and the need to keep sponsorships. 5.11 has "fallen" to even being called "moderate".
The YDS system, being a consensus grade actually works remarkably well for what it is needed for at a base level: giving a climber a yardstick to determine whether or not a route should be attempted in the first place and how much effort they should expect to put into it.
It is similar to chess ratings, in that you are comparing what you can do to what others have done. The difference being in chess the players are ranked while in climbing the climbs are ranked. If I get to choose who I play in chess or what types of climbs I do, my view of my ability in both ranking systems can get distorted.
Fortunately for climbing, I'm more interested in what a route was rated and by whom, and in what year, to determine how I might want to approach it.
Went a bit off topic there but yeah, 5.11 across the board is pretty f'n solid.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Aug 19, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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Dan the Morman. Solid.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 19, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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OP = True.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 19, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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So far no one has mentioned the difference between doing 5.whatever fifty feet off the ground and the same difficulty, pitch after pitch, a thousand feet off the ground. In my mind that is where the true challenges and rewards come into play. The beauty of climbing, not only for me but many I hope, is the mental and emotional discipline as much as the physical.
Also, there is a broad range of difficulty between 5.11a and d, obviously...
It’s a question that comes up every few years and its good to keep people in check. Thanks John.
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maui_mark
climber
under a coconut tree
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Aug 19, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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Roadie??
Steve ? That you?
I use to know someone who loved to spray about " I climb 5.12" when they were in Indian Creek. Yet they stayed far away from the 5.10 wide hands and OW's.
I told them if their a 5.12 climber that they should be able to OS Astroman.....
Funny thing is when I was in the creek 11+/12- was a reasonable grade I could climb TR/Lead. I went to J-tree and all of the sudden 5.9 was f*#k'n terrifying and goddam scary. I followed Coarse and Buggy and I was like holy schincterballs.....
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ruppell
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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True for sure. The guy that mentored me installed something in me that I use to this day. I asked him when you can call yourself a climber of a given grade. He didn't hesitate one second. His response was "When you can onsight 99% of the climbs at that grade regardless of style." It stuck with me and I'll probably never be more than a 5.10 climber because of it. I've climbed harder for sure but 5.10 is the grade that I can onsight most of the time. Slab, crack, steep, thin, scary(the ones you have to onsight), bolted, whatever. Although I did just fall off a 10+ at Patricia Bowl the other day so maybe I'm a 5.9 climber. Oh well back to the drawing board.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:25am PT
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Wasn't it JB who sometimes described himself as a 5.9, maybe a 5.10 climber? That is, that he was reasonably sure of climbing routes of all kinds of that grade anywhere, anytime.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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The first time I really understood this subject was one summer about 30 years ago when a friend got a geology job that gave him access to a boat that let us cross a lake to some nice terrain that was easily seen, but hard to get to in the summer.
Got the chance to do the second or third (never really knew which) of a pretty north ridge on a peak that rose out of the far end of the lake. It was supposedly 5.8, and I thought of myself as a 5.10 climber, because I'd managed to lead a bunch of 5.10 pitches at Squamish. So no problem, right?
Well, no problem on the first four pitches, but the fifth (and final) pitch featured a crack wider than my hands and wider than any of the primitive pro we'd brought along (Hey, it's only 5.8, how much gear could we really need?).
And the crack was iced up.
It was my introduction to what climbing is really about, and although I've since climbed plenty of things that are rated harder, I'm still pretty proud to be a 5.8 climber.
So, yeah, before you call yourself or someone else "a 5.X climber" it's worth considering just what you mean.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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It was iced up when we did it, too - but that was in April. Glad that Len was there to lead.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:45am PT
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Understand the sentiment. Should point out that Tightrope is rated 5.11c though the runout section that everyone is referring to is rated 5.10b. BTW, if you blow it on the 5.8+ friction at the top of pitch two you can potentially take a 300-foot groundfall.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:50am PT
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What I was told is to be solid at a grade, say 10c, you need to lead 100 pitches at said grade of all styles. Then you move on to the next letter.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2012 - 02:00am PT
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I remember when I was a kid, thinking I was a 5.10 climber when a Yosemite veteran dragged me up the DNB. I knew I was in trouble when I could barley make it up the first pitch, rated 5.7.
Oh yeah!
JL
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:10am PT
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Yeah, climb ratings have little meaning after 5.8.
Dumb sport.... But I can't stop doing it.
Were all gonna die
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SeanH
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:46am PT
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A true, all arounder 5.11 climber IS probably rare. So yes, agree with original statement. Also, based on doing sport climbs in multiple states, and true valley climbs, the YDS might as well be scrapped from sport climbing. Just use the euro/french system or whatever it is, with grades like 7c, 9a, etc.
Sport climbs are infinitely easier, so the grade crossover makes no sense. I'm not even talking about the protection aspect - Trad climb difficulty almost always (in my experience) comes from things like finding/trusting foot placement, awkward body positions, crappy jams, polish, etc.
Sport climbing difficulty seems to come from endurance, strength, overhanging terrain, etc...all things which, if you ask me, are much easier to acquire with hard work, than the expertise required to be a 5.11 trad climber, which mostly has to come from direct experience on rock, placing gear, being mentally tough, etc.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 04:17am PT
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SeanH wrote:
Trad climb difficulty almost always (in my experience) comes from things like finding/trusting foot placement, awkward body positions, crappy jams, polish, etc.
You seem to be reducing all trad climbing to crack climbing in Yosemite.
There are plenty of trad climbs around the world that are not crack climbs and that are not on glacier polished California granite.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 20, 2012 - 06:14am PT
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Maybe even rarer is finding someone who likes all those different climbing styles enough to bother. Seems similar to picking 5.10s on various kinds of rock; some may just not be enjoyable enough to a person to make the exercise worthwhile. Not everyone aspires to be that sort of all-round climber. In fact, I'd say it's generally been more the exception rather than the rule. In my case I know I enjoy specific movement, lines and textures more than others and so gravitate towards those I really enjoy and typically don't bother otherwise.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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How hard are the YV 5.9+ OWs?
Can't be that hard. But you might scuff your shoes.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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When I retired in 92 I considered myself a 5.11+ trad leader. Most of the climbs Largo lists I had been climbing for years, many led with nuts. I was able to on site up to 11c, and most 11d's although not all I ran into. Even on site some 12's but more often than not they would take some work. Harder than that, forget about it. Hence I considered myself an 11+ leader. Having grown up climbing in the Valley helped.
Marty
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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John Bachar called himself a 5.10 climber.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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what a comforting thread--thanks, largo.
the comparison to chess is interesting. chess, one would assume, is a game of infinite difficulty. the ratings are for the players. in climbing, the players rate the route. there are still many places where the rock is infinitely difficult. the problem here seems to be that the rock players themselves want to be rated. good luck with that.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Marty, Your my hero.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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Once you start moving into high 10's and 11, it gets tricky.
You could have an ape reach like Hans and maybe it becomes 5.9 or you might be a midget tossing tool like Hudon and it becomes 5.12 (That little fukr would still pull of the 12).
Me, I just suck so I walk up look and decide if I should try. It usually works out somehow.
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ruppell
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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John Bachar called himself a 5.10 climber.
WOW. In the interest of keeping my ego in check I humbly downgrade myself to a 5.9 climber. It's funny though how many 5.10 climbers I've watched wack and dangle at the grade.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Amazingly enough, true.
And if you can still climb 5.11 of any style onsight after a half-dozen hard pitches, you are a bona fide bad-ass, as pointed out above.
But, let's not forget that Sharma, with very little valley experience, came in and onsighted some hard cracks, fumbling with gear. Truly amazing. So there are those that could, but just aren't interested.
Also, the conundrum that the bad-ass valley leader, the guy who waltzed up that 11+ crack of multiple sizes, the same climb that broke the 5.13 sport hero, V10 boulderer--that valley guy cannot do shite on steep terrain, can't even do hard single moves. Really weird. I mean, what guys from the Valley (since Bachar did it) have gone to Europe and set standards of face climbing there (like Chasing the Train)?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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I think healyje hits the issue that I see. Most of us not only have more natural ability at one type of climbing than another, we have greater preference for one type of climbing more than another. Finding someone willing to put forth the effort needed to be able to lead so many different types of climbing, each with unique physical, mental and protection problems, at the 5.11a level is still rare by my observation.
And Riley hits on an issue that most of us overlook. The decimal rating is just one measure of a climb's difficulty. Unreliable rock, propensity toward bad weather and the consequent need for speed, extreme demands on fitness and endurance, etc., etc. give mountaineering routes a whole range of new ways to repel otherwise competent trad rock climbing leaders.
Interesting thread and responses. Thanks, all.
John
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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I know professional climbers who don't know what a T.C.U. is, let alone what it stands for.
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lubbockclimber
Trad climber
lubbock,tx
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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I just love being outside. 5. Whatever...
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Regarding that list, I am only intimately familiar with TZ & WW. And both were a wake-up call in regards to were I stood as far as technique goes. And I do recall taking a certain delight in knowing that I wasn't alone in my opinions of WW whilst watching a friend struggle on it for a tad bit longer then i expected him to back in '74. And he had put up many .10, .11 & .12 FA's throughout Yose, TM & the eastside & certainly had his techniques down pat. It is definitely Valley centric when it comes to its rating, imo!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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I always considered that true 5.11 was not just hard to do physically but difficult to figure out requiring exact sequences that may not be obvious in several places.
Younger climbers love to ascend those number grades. It's a good game.
As an old climber, I'd just settle for Not Hard, Hard, Really Hard, and Too Hard.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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What's rare these days is finding a modern climber who gives a rip about 5.11 and under. The benchmark sandbags you all cite are generally only difficult on the onsight because they are odd. That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Only on supertopo do people drool and waste their time with such nonsense over grades.
In the real world people just climb and shred ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 20, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.
Funny, I see people who I know consistently climb 5.12 sport thrashing and sketching on 5.10 trad climbs with some regularity year in, year out.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 20, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Myself, I'm a solid 6 inches. Maybe a little more depending on the size of the crack and if it's wet or not...
Wait a minute... waht are we talking about?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 20, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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What Werner said.
Although it does help to be good at psychological manipulation for
the rare times when your partner start clucking like a chicken and wants
to retreat. Why going up is safer than going down can be a hard sell
when all the facts say otherwise.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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I prollie am not following the current direction of this thread cuz I haven't read any of the post's on it other than the OP's first post & of course the Bhagwan's (one must attempt to keep oneself somewhat centered, eh?). But, as far as ratings go, their ultimate purpose is that they occasionaly provide an ounce of humility, is it not? Both TZ & WW provided, in the least, that as far as I was concerned! And, since this is about being well rounded in all techniques, it does remind me of the minimum standards (free) that were once set (as far as prepretory free climbs) for the Nose & Salathe before one should consider attempting them, or feel prepared to, bitd! So, ratings are important, imo!
edit: i mean if JB was being honest about considering himself a well rounded 5.10 climber, that would seem rather humble!!
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Aug 20, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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5.10 climbers don't on site free solo the Moratorium.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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Too Strong Dave, check!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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Marty,
I fully agree
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Marty - 5.10 climbers don't on site the Moratorium.
Let alone on site free solo it, and when the crux is wet, no less. In no way would I ever consider JB as simply being a well rounded 5.10 climber! I was speaking of his humility to consider himself simply that. John seemed to have a tendency to sometimes underrate climbs, at least as far as the norm was. imo. Some might say he had a tendency to sandbag, wudevah.Me thinks that he was simply that much better, and he was being honest because that is what it felt like to him. So, perhaps on his personal scale, that is where he put himself!
JB could have on sighted those seven routes that Largo mentions at the age of seventeen (or younger). And was, obviously a well rounded 5.11 climber at age 17 & if not, then no such animal existed at the time. Cuz, by then, or at least in one or two years of that, he was the best climber in the world. i guess what JL is talking about is how a well rounded 5.11 climber entails much more than someone who can succeed on all types of 5.11 a majority of the time (51% is a majority).
edit: I saw JB onsight Butterballs in the Spring of '74 with Gramicci. And he commented that they didn't even get a pump going onit! I believe he was just seventeen then!
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semicontinuous
Gym climber
Sweden
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:03am PT
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Agree. What are you people on? Being able to onsight 5.11 on knots in Elbsandstein, OWs in Indian Creek, runout slabs on alpine limestone, smeary face in Joshua Tree, overhanging jugfests in Kentucky, or whatever in the same year is not particularly uncommon. Thousands upon thousands of climbers are capable.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:08am PT
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The ballcuppers are thick in this thread.
JB was modest?
Only a few people in the world are solid on 11's?
Get real.
John you should probably change your avatar and go undercover if you want honest answers here.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:30am PT
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Goatboy, that modest quote also caught my eye. John was anything but modest.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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Pretty easy to be dismissive of steep sport routes around here.
Haters Gonna Hate.
...and I always thought calling yourself a 5.(whatever) climber was silly.
Hang loose ST.
See you 'round.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT
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goatboy stinkz,
dood. you are right, the JB i new was anything but modest (was funnier than sh#t, though in a snarky kinda way. & it helped balance him out, imo). & the last time i saw him in the flesh, was 1979 (the magnolia boulders contest, san diego). very sorry to say, i don't know what he was like in his latter years, i did here he mellowed significantly. i was going by the quote someone made here,and did indeed atTribute it to his latter years!!
EDIT: dR.f. -- n0 shiit, i, & a dozen other people, already saId tthat (or implied it)! aNd tha rest 0f the w0rld, Already knowd iT!!
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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JL you are so right. I also wonder why so many 70's trad routes get upgraded. A 5.10 bitd is still a 5.10 relative to what was done at the time at that crag. I guess folks are in a hurry now. Learning the crack techniques and placing pro to protect those climbs was what we did. Remember the flaring stuff in Aspen and the pro? Sport climbing is like jazzercise...climbercising.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Hardmen come in all shapes, sizes, and talent is semmingly never divvied fairly among any competitive group. Training makes a big difference. The vid of the FA over the water and the dude's comments show that.
I got called a hardman once, but it was light banter, so I never took it seriously...
A hardman is one willing to pay the price to get the climb done right. I never trained. My hard was all in my pud.
The climbing ratings are a social convention so there can be orderly pecking, along with their being an indicator of strengths in certain areas.
I never wanted to be great at everything. Just some things. Many of you are like that. Eminently sensible.
Edit: Almost forgot, Riley. You are right on.
Riley, you are so right about weather and objective danger, too! But it isn't that big a problem in YV, so...
The classic Sheridan about Whymper never climbing 5.10 is made to order for this topic.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Steve Shea wrote:
Remember the flaring stuff in Aspen and the pro? Sport climbing is like jazzercise...climbercising.
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I remember doing some of those routes with you, up at Independence Pass, like Mind Parasite, the 5.11 route on the main wall, Center Route of the Plaque, and others, and having to place almost all the gear (before cams) and hoping that if I ripped, at least one thing would catch me. I remember doing Dean's Day Off with Lynn and wondering how Henry got anything in there at all be cause we didn't.
We weren't thinking about being 5.11 or 5.12 climbers. We were just trying to make it up stuff on sight and with no bones showing.
JL
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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In my book, one of the qualities of the term hardman makes an appearance here as well and denotes ability which spans a range of rock and circumstance. In this usage, a climber who can on-sight climb most any 5.10 I'd call a (5.10) hardman, while another climber who would flail miserably on many of those 5.10s but can reliably climb overhanging 5.12 sport climbs isn't a hardman: i.e., not a 5.12 hardman, not a 5.11 hardman, and not a 5.10 hardman.
I am a (5.8) hardman most of the time. Except when I'm not.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 21, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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We were just trying to make it up stuff on sight...
Seems like that hasn't been the general objective in climbing for quite some time.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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A hardman is one willing to pay the price to get the climb done right.
Mouse thinks the way I do. It bothers me that so many people on this thread seem to disrespect climbing that differs from what they like to do. Any hard climb takes both training and ability, whether it's a fierce sport problem or a daunting trad lead. One of the things I always understood about ratings was that they were not necessarily interchangeable between types of climbing. Doing a 5.x sport climb didn't mean one could do a 5.x OW or vice versa, and the skill needed to climb 5.x on solid granite differs from that needed to climb 5.x on choss.
My own 45 years of climbing confirms Largo's observation -- that most climbers don't pay the price to do 5.11 in all its various types. If there are thousands that can do so, it's only because there's millions that now have at least "tried" climbing.
John
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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We were just trying to make it up stuff on sight...
Seems like that hasn't been the general objective in climbing for quite some time.
Ummm, only seems like that if you don't pay attention to "hot flash" type climbing news that is widely reported on the Internetz. Hard on-sights/flashes are commonly reported.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Ummm, only seems like that if you don't pay attention to "hot flash" type climbing news that is widely reported on the Internetz. Hard on-sights/flashes are commonly reported.
Well, that accounts for 0.03 percent of the demographic. What I see every time I go climbing is people 'working' climbs with sport tactics whether they are climbing sport or trad. The emphasis appears to be pretty much entirely focused on 'redpointing' versus onsights for the overwhelming majority of today's demographic.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 21, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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Hmm, well we see what we see. I also see many if not most sport climbers doing more redpointing that onsighting, and that's what I do more of also, although I still think it's very common to try hard for an onsight at the appropriate grade.
Most trad climbing I see is onsightinng, but maybe this varies on where you are, and maybe I'm making some assumptions and actually lots of people are "redpointing" that 5.6 or 5.7 and not onsighting!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 21, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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You're onto something Largo. I would also say that the number of climbers who can onsight any type of 5.10, anytime, anywhere is in the lower single digits precentage wise.
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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JL I was with Henry and Pat Adams on the FFA of Dean's Day Off. Henry led it on sight, barefoot, using #1 stoppers, hand placed rurps and crack n' ups! Now that was a display of rockclimbing. We called it 5.12 back then but certainly did not think of ourselves as 5.12 climbers. It was an anomaly. Everything was some level of 5.10. Had few 5.11's. We could only get a feel for grades on our annual pilgimages to the Valley, Boulder, Estes etc to see if we could get up the stuff. I call it provincial thinking. We in the backwaters of American climbing in the 70's could not possibly measure up, we can't climb that stuff. But relative to our local area 5.10's were 5.10's. The best thing about those days on Independence was getting the strength to hang on to learn to place pro. I think we had about six bolts on the Pass in those days. I'm getting old and curmudgeonly I suppose cause to me it's a crying shame that so many lines got bolted and retro bolted which could have been done with vision and balls.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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I would also say that the number of climbers who can onsight any type of 5.10, anytime, anywhere is in the lower single digits precentage wise.
I'd be surprised if 0.1% of climbers - one in a thousand - can do so.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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Werner told me once that they are 5.8s in the valley that if you take fall, it could be fatal.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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I know a lot of climbers around the Eastside who regularly climb 5.11 + in the mountains. I have. Once.
Around here we train hard at the boulders or the Gorge in the winter and go crush in the mountains in the summer.
Granted Bishop does not represent a normal cross section of climbers.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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Not so complicated.
Few climbers can walk up to Astroman and onsight it. But some do, and some have done, for decades. I know a Catalan sport climber who got the flash, at least. Maybe that'll have a few people here gnashing their teeth. Heh.
Take a climb like U-Wall. I read here that Coz onsighted it. Has to be pretty damn rare. Canucks?
Stacks of climbers onsight 12a-12c sport, but generally on routes that are forgiving of errors. Technical climbs, whether crack or face, tend not to be forgiving of errors and those compound quickly. Routes rated by pump factor are more easily done--many sport climbs happen to fit this category.
In contrast to valley classics like TZ, flash ascents of Midnight Lightning are pretty common. I can think of 3 by not-famous climbers. Fair to say that few climbers today are well-rounded, in the sense that they can stack multiple pitches in the 11s on any type of rock, to climb a whole line. There are exceptions, of course.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 21, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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Do all those climbers on-sight 5.11+ off widths, run slabs, squeezes, flares, etc?
If so, that's proud.
Like I said Bishop is not your average set of over the hill trad daddies or sport jocks.
There are a lot of very well rounded mutants here per capita.
Of which I am not one.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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only a few folks have mentioned that if you are a true (say) 5.9 climber. that damn well ought to mean that a little 5.9x doesnt through you of of your game too bad.
there are way too ma climbers today that climb 5.12, who will absolutely freak when it gets scary.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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Who gives a flying f*#k if you can onsight or whatever. The only thing that really counts is if you can get the rope up it one way or annother without getting hurt and that you have a great day with good company and everyone gets home safe. I am way more impressed with the leader who is smart enough to grab the sling to make a sketchy clip than with the bonehead who try's to impress, blows the clip and ruins my day with a rescue..... Too much Bravado on this thread... Climb and have fun. if you have to grab gear or take a rest hang before the scary section that is just fine. The ONLY time getting it clean is of any real importance is the FFA. There is ZERO bonus points for getting hurt on something that has already been climbed....
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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@^^^ yea, i suppose that being an alive hangdog vs a dead badass (or an attempt to look like one) has its benefits...
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
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Agreed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 22, 2012 - 06:57am PT
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If I am on something big I am all about Alpine Rules! The last f*#king thing on the planet that I am concerned with is what my partner says is their onsight grade. What does concern me is if they have a cool enough head and are not drivin by ego and some stupid set of free climbing rules. In fact I might get a bit short with them if they waste time trying to free something on a big route. Be smooth and safe,keep the rope moveing up and I am a happy camper. There is a time and place for trying to free something but at the end of the day it is better to come home safe. You can always go back and give it annother try on a day when you feel stronger but you have to make it home in one piece this time to have that second chance. Heck I am not going on a big trip with a stranger anyways so the whole what is your onsight grade 20 questions BS is just that. BS. the question that I will ask is what do you feel like doing today?
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Aug 22, 2012 - 07:22am PT
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I think this is a very valuable question for multipitch because it speaks of your total experience. From route finding, confident lead head, knowing how to read the clouds for weather, judging when it will be dark, epic scenarios, etc. a person that is as solid as Largo describes has probably dealt with all of this and more. I myself have strength & weaknesses so by this scale I'm a 5.8 onsight climber anytime, anystyle, anywhere and I'm damned proud of it--it has taken a lot of blood sweeat & tears not to mention $$$$
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 22, 2012 - 09:22am PT
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I don't care what a person says they can do, only that they're not going to totally choke on the route they're climbing with me.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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I made the mistake of going to climb Positive Vibration on the Hulk with a guy who assured me he was a badass. Ended up getting his foot stuck in a 5.9 crack and freaking the f*#k out. Then started making excuses as to why we should bail from halfway up the route. The bag of pizza he brought along as his only food for the weekend should have been a tip off.
Wasted trip.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Bobby Jenson, animal!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Take it from me....47 years of climbing have convinced me that the single most important factor in any climbing excursion, be a multi-day alpine climb or a single day at the crags, is your partner.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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So, back to JL's list of seven Valley trad 10's. I guess in order to consider yourself a well rounded climber of any grade, you have to be able to free solo that grade. Cuz, that is what leading the crux on several of the climbs on that list essentially entailed, bitd! TZ for instance.
edit: except now,i guess, you could push a giant cam up it and essentially have a tr on it. regardless, it seems somewhat subjective, cuz, sooner or later you are gonna fail on something you may have done similar to it at even higher a rating. a lot of factors can come into play. but it is a pretty good rule of thumb in general, imo!
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Clayton
Trad climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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I will play devil's advocate for a minute here. Let's just assume the grade itself is irrelevant and we are arguing that to be a 5.whatever climber, you have to be able to onsight any style of that climb, anytime, anywhere, 99% of the time.
1) how many 5.14 OWs are out there? how about 14d OWs? Not many at all. By that logic, NOBODY is a 5.14 climber because they don't onsight 5.14 at all styles.
2) Look at the best of the best: maybe just consider tommy caldwell, chris shrma & adam ondra... how many of them onsight 5.14 99% of the time? NOBODY. So by that logic, there are no 5.14 climbers in the world. My point is that different things are climbed in different style. Apples v oranges. Agreed this doesn't really apply to the 5.11 grade itself, since lots of people are strong enough to go ground up OS.
3) like others have already said, if I only climb 1 pitch of 5.11 per day (but onsight it) that's waaaay different than onsighting something like Freeway or U Wall or doing some sustained, grade VI 5.11... let alone if you're climbing at night, when you cant feel your fingers or with a pack on. Again, apples v oranges.
Bringing it back to the OP topic. If someone onsights a given grade pretty much all the time across styles but just doesn't climb one style... I wouldn't object to them being a [whatever grade] climber.
But in the end, what does it matter? Climb to climb. Keep it safe or go for broke. To each their own so why bother trying to make everything fit one mold.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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I would guess that to become a solid, all-round climber at harder grades you more or less have to be interested in getting to the top of large, multi-pitch cliffs like in the Valley or up alpine [rock] summits. Over time that 'getting somewhere' inclination forces you to confront all kinds of different terrain and you either learn to deal with anything and everything that comes your way or you don't get up a lot of harder lines.
That definitely leaves me out as 'getting somewhere' or getting to the top of things has never been of any interest to me. I climb with an eye for specific kinds of movement I enjoy and which aren't found on every rock type and the kinds of rock that support it typically don't support certain other kinds of climbing and movement.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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I see this thread is still stuck trying to figure out what happened in the 80's. Boooorinngg.....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
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I see this thread is still stuck in the 80's. Boooorinngg.....
You mean onsight? As opposed to 27 dogging attempts to a chartreusepoint?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
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healyje -- "I would guess that to become a solid, all-round climber at harder grades you more or less have to be interested in getting to the top of large, multi-pitch cliffs like in the Valley or up alpine [rock] summits."
I doubt it.
Guys that are masters at several or all different disciplines are born with those qualities and thru some hard work master them.
It's not where you go but what you have in your heart that matters,
I believe you, healyje, has that quality within you ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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...and thru some hard work master them.
My point was that hard work most likely happens over varied terrain on longer climbs attempting to top out on some feature. I could be wrong in that, but I'm guessing even the pentathletes of climbing who seek out training on specific style in isolation are still largely motivated by climbing longer routes where your are confronted with different styles on route.
I believe you, healyje, has that quality within you...
Oh, I've climbed 5.12/.13 in my day, but only in very specific, highly isolated circumstances and that has never really translated in any meaningful way to many other rock types or styles. The reason is because I don't like the other rock types for various reasons, most often because I don't care for the kind of movement they afford.
Vertical face climbing on small edges being a great example - could I do it? Maybe, but why? I basically climb to set loose an inner monkey which likes to move fast, dynamically, and continuously over steep terrain and roofs without a pause in the movement. Steep, hard face climbing on the other hand is all about strangling your inner monkey and not letting them loose for a millisecond. It's relatively static and tedious from my perspective and I've never had the slightest inclination to work on it except when it's the only thing standing between me and a roof (and the roofs usually look way easier to me than the face up to them when this happens).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 22, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Loves gasoline. If i am getting into a big climb it is with someone whom i know well enough to know what each of us will be able to contribute to the climb. It is not a question that I have to ask. If it is an internet blind date I have learned my lesson and will not do a big climb without going cragging first...
A few years ago this dartmouth kid kept asking me to go to cannon for the black dike or up to willoughby and that he could get off of class @ 11:30 am... Seeing as his class was 1.5 hrs from either venue and both venues offer grade IV climbs i kept putting him off. Finally i cragged with the kid and found out what his gig was. the next time he asked me for a noon start to hit up cannon I bit and we casually did the Dike CTC in 3 hrs.. that was a fun afternoon but regardless of what someone tells me they climb I need to see it first and i do not need a number attached to it. I just need to see it done and know that the person will also be good company.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Sean Nelb, crusher.
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Aug 22, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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somewhere between being a "solid 5.10 climber" and being a "5.14 climber", the whole idea of onsighting ANYTHING goes away completely- right?
so WHERE does that change happen?
seems like everyone i know climbing 5.12 or 5.13 with any regularity is to a very large degree out there projecting. i am not hating, just saying...
we are only talking about onsighting because it's a conversation about 5.10 vs 5.11- so at least that much has changed, seems to me.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 22, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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This has all devolved into another boring discussion on ratings. Ratings are extremely subjective and have so much variance as to make the notion of is he/she a 5.10, 5.11, 5.12.....climber nearly meaningless. Working a sport route and onsighting an alpine trad route are two very different animals. Climbing is too enjoyable, too addictive, too life affirming to become merely a numbers game.
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mort7777
Trad climber
Santa Barbara
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Aug 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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Largo is dead on right here. Here, Here!
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Bela
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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In agreement!
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Ron Carson, Brett Maurer, Jeff Bosson, Randy Leavitt, Tony Yaniro, Mike Waugh, Brian Jonas, Bill Leventhal, Michael Kennedy, a bazillion guys from colorado and then add those Boise Boys, Clark Jacobs, and yes Eric Ericson, and Randy Vogel...at the other end John Long and all you stone master dudes ... not me though... i could only climb anything 5.10 : )
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GZ
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 23, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Cragman,
you're a solid grade ahead of me. Great insight.
Back in the day, you had to climb OW at stiff grades to get up Mescalito and others. The EARLY Yo Cats had to summon great courage and apply a slew of techniques to summit what for them was not an aesthetic line for it's own sake, but a weakness to the top. They employed whatever technique was called for, no playing to their individual strengths.
I concur with Largo. Precious few climbers in the last 30 years have been solid across the spectrum of 5.11
GZ
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Aug 23, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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"the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader"
agreed, few, damn few.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 23, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Same boat Ron. But damn I'm having fun out there.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 23, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Ron, that's actually been the topic of most of my posts in the thread.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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I got burned out thinking I was cool for onsighting 11's on whatever. Naked Edge, Astroman = relics from the 70's. I rode that ego to it's death and got bored with climbing. It wasn't until I started pushing myself, training hard and projecting that I actually started to improve and enjoy climbing again. At this point, I can't stand the mentality that dominates this thread. I see it as a disease.
As far as who's good? There is no "telling" - you have to see it, and you will know when you do - and it has to be on something really hard.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 23, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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The point I was attempting to make, before I got hammered and accused of spraying because I simply mentioned I was intimately familiar with TZ & WW is that, according to JL's criteria (or whommever wrote the damned article) there are not only very few true 5.11 climbers, but there are few 5.10 climbers. imo. I believe TZ was a good standard for that particular grade
But, for all those who have lead it, how about having the ability to lead Kierkgaard or Niectche? Cuz, if ya found yerself at their base & stairing up at em early one morning, both required that you could do just that and ya better damn well be a well rounded 5.10 climber. To f*#king late to bail, and you couldn't aid them. And back before friends/cams, you couldn't protect them for sh#t, either. The first one, Kierkgaard had one funky, poorly placed 1/4 bolt as an anchor with your partner & the haulbag hanging from it. And ya might start reevaluating yer personal freeclimbing ability somewhere around 75-80 fookin feet out with nothing worth a sh#t, if anything, in and a long way to go. Particularly with yer parner reminding you every other minute, "Poot sumting in or we are gonna die!"!! Cuz that was indeed the case..you fall now, you both were dead.
There were'nt many people qualified (imo) to lead such a pitch back then or now with only nuts & pins (neither of which would be of much help). So, imo, there are not very many true (well rounded) 5.10 climbers on the planet, either then or now (according to the article).
Dave Stutzman (RIP) was, he was the climber who led both of those double overhanging flared chimneys back in the Spring of 1975. The second ascent of those particular beasts. And a spectacular second ascent, imo! And the reason I mentioned TZ earlier, and my intimate relationship to it, was because he was my partner on it. It brought back memories which are related to one of the points JL is making, imo! Being well rounded and the consequences of not being, whilst thinking you are. We were attempting to prepare for SoH's second ascent & particularly those two back to back pitches by doing everything we could manage to get our asses up in the way of OW & chimneys, etc.!
Anyway, if ya recall, i mentioned humility in my earlier post on this thread. Cuz, that is exactly what my experience was, in regards to TZ, very humiliating. And it is perhaps fortunate that I didn't accompany my friend on that route (ended up in the hospital that Spring) cuz, one of those leads would have been mine. And, as certain as I was at the time being that I as a well rounded 5.10 climber, I sincerely doubt that I was if being capable of leading any 5.10 was concerned, cuz that is what they were rated.
Just trying to make it sound real here. Because that is what climbing is, trad climbing anyway, it can get VERY real VERY fast, life and death laying in the balance sort of real.
BTW, some of you must either got a stick or a steal rod stuck up yer ass ya try so hard to look and seem so damn humble, holier than tho, self righteous & sacrosanct, at times. Perhaps it was wortless and i failed in my attempt, but I was attempting to make a point which was related to the OP"s premise (i think)! So what that I mentioned that I had climbed two of the seven climbs mentioned in the OP first post (BFD) it was in direct relation to the point I was about to make before i got slammed for spraying, or whatever. What a slimy bunch of brown nosing suck holes. If it was some grease ball n00b who was the OP of this thread, would have reacted the same way to my first post or even be here forthat matter? Grow the f*#k up!!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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And JLP, theres no "disease" here climbing is what it is - enjoyable at all "grades/levels. That's just wonderful, however this thread is about mastery=climbing some relic piece of crap from the dawn of freeclimbing, thinking you're too cool for words because of it, and claiming everything that evolved in the following 30 yrs, allowing far harder things to be done - is BS. Get an ego check, wankers. Go try freeing the Salathe headwall or something. It's never seen an onsight. Maybe a few more laps on those 11's from the 70's will prepare you.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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Yeah, and Jardine almost freed the Nose. So close. You need to do some homework on how those people trained. Also, the hardest thing done on Salathe was the 12- Picture Book. This pitch gives few suiters any problems. It isn't equivalent to freeing the headwall. At all. Not even close. None of these guys (and girls) are wankers, for sure - you are.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Yeah, and Jardine almost freed the Nose.
Not even remotely close.
WTF are you people thinking?
It's unbelievable what bullsh!t is being passed around these days.
The guy chiseled the sh!t out the place.
You call that free climbing?
You're out of your mind ......
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Werner misses obvious sarchasm. This thread is officially fuk'd.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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OK fair enough JLP
I've been trolled by sarcasm ... :-)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Want the grade I climb, too?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 23, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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C'mon old dudes take a breath. You're sounding as grumpy as your age.
This topic is one I find interesting.
There are a bunch of old 10,11, 12, 13 that are still rarely repeated.
The Great Roof 5.13... it just doesn't get freed. Honnold made what he said was a brief effort at it and then moved on. He said it was hard and that Changing Corners was rediculous.
I think part of it is that the young bad asses that are showing up from the gym.... DON'T CARE ABOUT THESE OLD CLIMBS. Heck,many have little interest in Yosemite climbing. Guess what old guys, that is okay.... Get over it. They don't care.
Me, I like the old Yos routes and the new stuff. But because of that, I find that ratings are f'ed up and you really need to just figure it out (climb/risk) and go climbing and stop bitching.
cheers
jay Renneberg
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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I grew up with the goal as becoming a 5.11 trad guy with my main thoughts at translating that proficiency into mountaineering routes.
I got good at sport/ trad 5.11/12 on established routes. I did a few first ascents in the mountaineering world
But, good lord I would never have been the man to recruit to establish a route on the Trango Tower or in the Valley, it's was a full time job to climb at that level for me! And I can't afford it!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Lynn Hill showed up after several years on the world cup ckt (plastic, gyms, etc), not much older than Alex, when she freed the Great Roof. What were you doing in your early 30's? I squandered mine telling myself how cool I was for all the 5.11's and aid climbs I'd done in my early 20's.
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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Was the OP's frame of reference ever taken off the table? Have we completely abondoned all reference to our history? Of course we expect singular performances, yet for me it has always been the broader experience that has proven most rewarding. Yes, I struggle with a self perception of being a failure when gazing at those who scale uniquely, yet I also know that they will never apreciate a fullness of life that has only been afforded to those who lead a life based on diversity of experience. Not saying that those so singularly focused lack enjoyment of life, just saying that, IMHO, some paths encompass more rigor and reward, regardless of the YDS grade.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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JLP, man that must a sucked, squandering a whole decade just thinking about how cool you thought you were.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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The original question was asked to get clear on something going into a big project I'm doing with Peter Croft called the Trad Climber's Bible. We've been working at it for quite a while now and it's getting fat as Freedom of the Hills. Seems there's always more to say.
One of the things I was trying to sort out was where the mean average is in trad climbing - right now. Deriving such norms is part of most every serious research project - not to establish how flawless we "old" people are, but to establish some baseline in order to make the conversation as relevant as possible.
Turns out to be much trickier to get a handle on then first suspected. Back when I was climbing 300 days a year, there were few people who were all around trad masters - meaning they could go to any crag, anywhere and immediately be on the hardest stuff not matter the technique. It seems that the norm, the average has not changed that much - not because of how splendid we all were "back in the day," a silly way to look at this conversation, but rather because the emphasis has shifted dramatically.
This is a hot subject for some, who apparently feel lessened or shamed by the question, and point out things having nothing to do with the trad discussion. Some apparently feel I am subtly dissing sport climbing by even pointing any of this out, when in fact I do little more than sport climbing these days and was asking those who perhaps were still practicing what I used to live for, but more frequently, therefore having a better contemporary grasp of where people are at with it.
And if the original list was too Yozcentric, try this one on for size:
El Matador, Devil's Tower
Crack of Fear, Lumpy Ridge
Obscured by Clouds, Suicide
Hyperspace Chimney, Snow Creek Wall, Leavenworth
Bat Crack, Tahquitz
Steppin' Out, Yosemite
Oz, Tuolume
Fat City, Gunks
Crank that list and you're a genuine 5.10 trad leader. Sounds almost tame.
Yippykya . . .
JL
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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it's all good, imho!
like a wise man (alex lowe, rip) once said "whoever is having the most fun" ain't that what it is all about, peeps? i hope so. let's all try & get along & show a little respect!
edit: jl, sounds like the "bible" will be a masterpiece! good news for the wayward vagabonds & seekers of truth. a guide & manual for those seeking direction & enlightenment down the path of the tradmaster!
btw, everybody, sorry about the "brown nose" remark i made earlier. i was only half serious (perhaps only a quarter, lol). insignificant & kinda lame, regardless! Peace!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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JL: is that sort of list not still too US-centric when it comes to defining what "trad" is?
For instance, would a British climber not have a point if they objected that some of these lists of climbs do not include certain styles of routes/problems which are regarded as quintessentially "trad climbing" on that side of the pond, where the style was effectively invented and romanticized?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Matador, I didn't know it was so hard. I went to do it once but it was peregrine falcon season or something and we had to do choss routes on the back side. Never really had the chance to go back. I was told I'm way too short to stem it but that it can just be climbed on one side as an 11.a dihedral with thin fingers. Something like that, its been a long time.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Hey John,
What a lively discussion you’ve opened. Its too bad its taken the turn it has…
I posted a few days ago that the real measure of the climber is more than just walking up to the crag, any crag, and sending at grade X but the ability to send grade X pitch after pitch. That seems to have gotten lost in all the hoopla but I stand by it.
While I’m not familiar with all the routes on your revised list it seems to still be ’short route centric’ and I think you’re doing your argument a disservice. Case in point: Yesterday I did The Harding Route on Mt. Conness with a friend who was in way over her head, we were under-racked and climbing wet, sand bagged cracks under threatening sky’s… you get the picture I’m sure. All chest thumping aside, while only 5.10, it was a challenging day and, for me, much more rewarding than the scores of 5.rad hundred foot wonders I’ve pulled off. Oh yeah, I did free the thing and we did get back to the truck without breaking out the headlamp, just.
Having said that, I failed, miserably I might add, on a .10d slab in the gorge last winter and had to suffer the shame of leaving a biener. However, is the climber who walks up to Astroman, onsights, and the following day gets bouted on The Green Dragon not a solid 5.11 climber. I think you’d have a tough time making that argument.
Thanks for all the entertaining reads over the years. Good luck with the book.
Steve Seats
PS. I think the average climber is on sighting low 5.10, 5.9 slab and ow.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 04:39am PT
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I'll follow up on what Black Spider wrote.
What about climbers from the Alps? There's lots of climbers onsighting 6c-7a+ (5.11b-5.12a) trad climbs in the high alpine environment. US climbers, and especially Californians don't consider it trad since there are a few pitons on these routes, the anchors are bolted on average, and the cracks aren't splitter.
Go to Grimsel, Mont-Blanc range, Les Ecrins, Orco valley, etc.
US climbers tend to think of Europe as a limestone grid bolted sport climber's paradise, but that's far from the truth. Or maybe if every anchor on a route is bolted it doesn't count as trad even if every pitch is protected by the gear one places?
Just food for thought.
Cheers.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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As they say: when life hands you 11's, make 11a's.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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Fck the Britts. Small rocks and too much time on their hands. Alpine rules are a lot more fun than gritsone rules....
Alipne rules = whatever gets you up and down in one piece is all good as long as we live to climb annother day. Gritstone = a bunch of stupid artificial rules designed to get you hurt if at all possible...
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Good point JL and interesting project. To revisit my upthread Jazzercise comment, I to do not mean to disrespect sport climbing. But I quit as a trad climber for a long time and now getting off the couch and back into the sport. Sport climing has been a fun worry free means to get in shape and move on rock again. However from that perspective, trad climbing is much more satisfying and from my background just part of the sport. Sport climbing feels like I'm kind of climbing. To your original observation/question I'm guessing around 5.9/5.10 might be the mean given all techniques. Cams sure lessen the stress of placing pro so I that moves things up I think.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 26, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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If you're including a Gunks route, at least make it Fat City Direct, which has much more climbing on it. But I think I'd nominate Erect Direction for an iconic but not ridiculous 5.10 from the Gunks.
Although not many people know much about it, one of the traddest cliffs in the U.S. right now is Millbrook. No bolts anywhere, maybe at most a handful of fixed pins for more than a hundred routes, rarely any chalk to show the way because many Gunks climbers are afraid to go there (with good reason), protection sometimes sparse, steep and very demanding rock with sections that aren't perfectly solid, virtually all routes done ground up without previewing or cleaning, rappel approach. If you can onsight, say, five 5.10 routes there, then I'd say you're at least a real 5.10 steep face climber.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Great thread John.
I second Roadie's (Steve's) line of thought. Climbing "true" at a grade, in my opinion, should include the ability to keep that grade up over some distance.....
It really depends on your measuring stick, but my measuring stick is longer routes, somewhat in the mountains if possible. Climbing The Regular Route on Fairview was kind of a big deal for me because of the length of time required to keep climbing efficiently, with an element of committment, as the route/day wears on.
Climbing Grant's Crack at Swan Slab (50 feet) never made me feel like I was a "5.9" climber.
For some reason I don't feel ready for Serenity to Sons though I can often climb a pitch of 5.10 if I need to. I'm always more impressed when someone sends something in the .10b-d range on The Hulk than if they Come back from a day at the sport crag saying they climbed "all the 5.11a's".
The dudes who keep moving all day and keep their salt together on long routes, stacking the pitches up in a particular grade range, get my vote for being "true" 5._ climbers.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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In the 1970's an old friend overheard some kid in the cafeteria across from Camp 4 spouting about how "he didn't consider anyone a climber unless they could lead 5.10d," leading my friend to think that kid had probably done his first 5.10d earlier that day (and of course not knowing which and what type of climbing it was, etc.) We had to laugh, because we figured this likely would have ruled out every legendary mountain master even up to Comici himself. This wasn't you, was it, Marty?
There is a hidden aspect to John's original question, that clarifies a bit how we might think about the answer - that is, try finding someone who is master of all things 5.11, BUT NOTHING HARDER. It's probably safe to assume that Alex Honnold, maybe Peter Croft 10 years ago, could have done virtually any 5.11 - because we consider them 5.12+ climbers!
There are rarer things than the true 5.11 trad leader - the true 5.12 trad leader, the true 5.13 trad leader, the true 5.14 trad leader, etc.
I have come to see every climber's skill set is more like a fingerprint - no two quite the same. Sometimes they are even quite paradoxical, for example the ability to do harder single moves on run-out lead, than the person can typically do bouldering. Also, the vast range of rock types and characteristics worldwide have demonstrated that for every "master" (ref. Henry Barber in the '70's) there is going to be an obscure local at some provincial crag who has created routes that will shame him (Pete Cleveland w/ Devil's Lake, Bernt Arnold in Dresden, and on and on).
Add in the objective factors, and there is a huge difference between clean, solid, dry, well-protected pitches on a familiar local crag, and 20 pitches up the back side of the Grand with snow starting to blow in, at dusk with a pack, the wrong size gear left on your rack and a runout with no clear sight of a belay. It may be a lot more appropriate to ask a stranger, before roping up, "How many partners have died on climbs with you?"
Also, if the implication is one must free on-sight every route, this means never falling, so they may as well free solo on-sight everything up to that point - unfortunately, this logical conclusion put Paul Preuss and other purist, free-soloing legends into terminal trouble 100 years ago. Glenn Randall, who survives to this day in Boulder, largely by having retired from climbing, used a Preuss technique in his solos, whereby one should never ascend anything harder than one can safely descend; Glenn would reverse every difficult sequence, immediately after surmounting it, before continuing upward, so as to assure himself that if some obstacle arose later, he had already proven that he could downclimb and reverse the entire route if necessary!
On the more serious side, a couple fatal leader falls in Eldorado Canyon in the past 5 years occurred on old-school 5.9s, when the leader's gear pulled; the papers variously described the climbers as being solid 5.10 climbers on indoor gym walls.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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Well, that's Eldo for you. Fishing in wires on face climbs, and the rock is polished everywhere. AH that was very insightful your comment about where have all the 5.11 climbers gone - they are 5.12 and 5.13 climbers who are well rounded to various degrees but probably get their highest numbers on overhanging sport routes in places like Rifle. 30 degrees overhanging but mostly good holds. A lot of people get good at that but no one practices 5.11 chimneys. No one I know anyway.
Other factors to consider: not everyone wants to climb long routes in Yosemite or in the mtns. Crack climbing is not learned in gyms to people have to start all over with it, on 5.8s and 5.9's, and they're just not into it. I don't like chimneys and offwidths and would never do them unless they're part of long routes. Particularly offwidths, I'd just as soon always avoid them, as get good at them.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:03am PT
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You guys keep speculating.
The reason we don't hear about the well-rounded 5.11 climber is because 5.11 does not interest the climbing/mountain media anymore unless it's a new route in some far away, remote corner of the planet.
Back when 5.11 was the hardest/highest rating attributed to climbs, the media talked a lot about it (and some of you were the climbers being talked about) thus your impression that there were "more" back then than there are now.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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If you want to climb mid 12 and up, it's pretty much a wonder of nature if you find a decent trad climb this hard. There are plenty, but really there aren't compared to bolted routes. There is an upper limit where the gear becomes rediculous, the cracks too small and unpleasant, the line contrived, etc. Search MP.com's database and watch the trad climbs all but disappear by about 13b - especially the 4 star ones, which they need to be if someone is going to want to spend the time making it go.
The "average" state of trad climbing has definitely risen, IMO. Obviously, there are the gyms. I would also credit the availably of information about routes - tons of videos, pictures and descriptions of every detail of so many harder lines is out there. This really closes the mental gap and gets more people on to these routes.
I don't think anyone with the experience for the upper grades really cares anymore about being "solid at 11" or "solid at 12" - that's noob talk. It more like "this level of climb in X number of goes". The steps get finer and take more time to work through.
Some current modern benchmark climbs, IMO, would include:
Front Range:
Wasp
Evictor
Freeline
Musta Been High
China Doll
Halucinogen
Sandstone:
Rainbow Wall
Ruby's
Optimator
Moonlight
Sierra:
Equinox
Phantom
Pheonix
El Cap - anything
etc.
All of these have seen numerous free sends over the past few years. These aren't oddball freakishly hard climbs done by an elite few. They are all seeing quite a bit of freeclimbing activity.
That said, the majority of this thread seems to be hung up on how cool it is to lead 5.10 or 5.11 or whatever standard from the long ago past, and how doing that "solid" or "onsight" in all styles is just as good and requires just as much work and talent as projecting and sending the harder grades. I think this is a fantasy held to protect the ego.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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I wish I could magically poof JLP to the crux of Air Voyage in The Black without a rope. Its pretty easy, only .12-, ow, four stars for sure. I bet he could just stuff his ego into the roof and glide right through…
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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^^^^ Wa HAhahahahA!
Hell just without a ropegun would do.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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The OP is dead-on accurate.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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I don't think anyone with the experience for the upper grades really cares anymore about being "solid at 11" or "solid at 12" - that's noob talk. It more like "this level of climb in X number of goes".
jlp, you fail to consider that there's quite a long list of people who care very much about exactly this because they are putting up climbs like Cat's Ear Spire, routes in Patagonia, etc., etc.
Also, you might consider refreshing your understanding of what an "average" is. No one is saying that there are not dozens of bad asses out there capable of flashing every 11 or 12 in Yosemite.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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....yeah, solo naked while it's raining with a pitbull knawing at my balls.
I just love hearing these retro trad BS "oh yeah, well what about.." comebacks.
FWIW, I think the Air Voyage OW is easier than the Monster. It's wider and has more rests.
t-man - you just failed to say anything what-so-ever beyond the elementary.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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5.11 is still hard but obviously not as hard as JLP's clitoris for this thread.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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Anyone have a tissue? Maybe a handiwipe?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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If you measure this all against the total climbing demographic then the number of 'bad asses' as a percentage of the total demographic has likely plummeted precipitously over the past thirty years.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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i think i got some spray in my eye
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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If you measure this all against the total climbing demographic then the number of 'bad asses' as a percentage of the total demographic has likely plummeted precipitously over the past thirty years.
You're probably right, though I suspect the plummeting started 10 or 20 years before that. I'm not sure it really addresses JL's issue, though. I understood his point to be the rarity of climbers who can climb at a given standard for all the varied types of climbing, not the ratio of "bad asses" to duffers.
John
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Something is missing here. Why does anyone want to talk about this?
If you are climbing just for the fun of it - you don't care what anyone thinks.
If you care whether someone is considered a bad ass, then you are busy caring about what people think. Why? The usual answer is money. Does someone get money? Does not have to be yourself.
How many old time professional climbers are well off? A few did very well. But not for their climbing. They had substantial other talent. Most old time professional climbers are still trying to work. Look at the data.
The audience, and therefore the money, is presently in free soloing. Roped climbing of 5.13 or higher is quite probably not going to pay your medical bills even after qualifying for medicare. The whole area is a back water.
Unless you do it just for the fun of it.
Seems to me.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Nice one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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You're probably right, though I suspect the plummeting started 10 or 20 years before that.
Nah, the plummeting started with the advent of sport climbing. Before that if you couldn't lead on gear your career in climbing was pretty brief and you found other things to do - it kept the demographic pretty tightly constrained (most today would claim 'artificially' so).
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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JLP is right.
Look, at 5.easy to 5.11 there are a shitload of good to amazing gear routes. So you could take the approach of just climbing a lot of routes onsite in a variety of styles and gradually raise your game to being "solid" and "well rounded" where you consistenly onsight 5.11.
But as the routes get harder, there are way less of them (look in the back of the '92 Vogel for JT, notice how the fat part of a bell curve sits at about 10a and there are very few 13s, even fewer that are gear protected). And the harder they get, the less they lend themselves to onsighting...not due to overall skill or strength required (althought that isn't a linear progression either), but because they get beta intensive to go at the given grade, room for error is much lower, they tend to have seen fewer ascents and are thus dirty, have loose holds etc, it's hard to find partners for it, lots of reasons.
If you wanted to become "solid" at 5.12, where the hell would you get mileage on 5.12 ow? There aren't that many of them. Even in an OW mecca like Vedauwoo there are maybe what...ten?..whereas at 5.11 there are probably fifty or more of em at that area and hundreds across the west. Mileage at 5.13 ow? Forget it, there are maybe a half dozen in the country.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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yes media darlings and the falsely fluffed, care nothing more than what others think
Media darling you say? ;^)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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Fact is climbing 5.10, 5.11 on all terrain is the basis of an average good climber, hardly the stuff of legends.
Hard climbing starts at that grade, my God do any of you take a second to see what Tommy is doing on El Cap?
Maybe an "an average good climber" that's in like the top 5% of the total demographic. And Tommy? Probably in the top 0.01% of the total demographic.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Maybe an "an average good climber" that's in like the top 5% of the total demographic. And Tommy? Probably in the top 0.01% of the total demographic. Hanging around in the dark swamps of 5.10's from the 70's will leave one with this perspective. A few days in a modern area may leave you wondering if anyone even still climbs those routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Dude, you're hallucinating - what do you think the term 'total demographic' consists of?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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I'll probably regret asking, but what's a "modern area"?
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Aug 28, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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More clitoris?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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Bachar-Yerian? For fuk's sake.
Let me take this moment to add Nazis, Hitler, Jesus and Double Cross to this thread as well.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 28, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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Coz has a point about the tremendous rise in climbing standards over the last few decades, but a lot of this increase in standards (with a number of notable exceptions) has been accompanied by extreme specialization. Based on what I see in my worldwide travels, climbing 5.11+ trad to include runout slabs, offwidth cracks, flaring chimneys etc. is still far above the reach of the average climber.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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for the first time in my life i agree with jim, it pains me to say it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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Coz has a point about the tremendous rise in climbing standards over the last few decades, but a lot of this increase in standards (with a number of notable exceptions) has been accompanied by extreme specialization. Based on what I see in my worldwide travels, climbing 5.11+ trad to include runout slabs, offwidth cracks, flaring chimneys etc. is still far above the reach of the average climber.
Oh, standards have definitely gone up (as they always have), but it has happened within the context of a veritable explosion in the demographic. And given the minor percentage of the total demographic that has ever even fondled a piece of gear, let alone placed one on lead, it's a very small percentage of the total climbing demographic that leads 5.11+ trad onsight, does it consistently, or across climbing styles and rock types.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Aug 28, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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My good bud, the late Karl mallmen could do 12+ slab,, onsight Fish Crack and we did Watkins onsight in 17 hours bitd
pretty good all around in my book
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
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I was once given a [brief] tour of a couple of hard slab routes at Whitehorse and I frankly couldn't for the life of me figure out what even made any of them a 'route', why they thought a route started where they said as opposed to anywhere in that overall general vicinity, and especially how the hell they were climbing any of them.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Aug 28, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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I should have given you a tour
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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climbing 5.11+ trad to include runout slabs, offwidth cracks, flaring chimneys etc. Slabs? Give me a pair of clod-hoppers and 2 days to get used to the rock. Are there any harder than 5.12, anyway, that aren't actually just miserably stupid face climbs? Just the thought of those things makes my forearms atrophy.
OW? Apparently if you can climb 13/14 sport, a few months on some lumber in your basement and you'll rule the planet.
Chimneys? Did you really just type that after "11+"? I have yet to find anything I can stick my full body into that's harder than 5.9.
Runouts? Most people I know, that have been in the sport long enough to get good at it - they really like their ankles. They like them a lot.
The reality is this argument of specialization and "all arounder" translates into nothing. There are styles of hard climbing that are interesting and challenging to climbers today, and there are styles that aren't - that is all. The rest is just a matter of experience.
It's nice to see the thread move into the late 80's to mid 90's, though, where we saw countless examples of sport climbers taking up trad climbing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:00am PT
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Walk in to your local gym, grab ten people at random, drive them to a 5.11, hand them a rack, and say have at it.
No one is saying .11 trad is 'world class' or state of the art; what is being said is you don't see many 'average' climbers capable of it. But again, most of the demographic doesn't trad climb so in reality that leaves 'average' climbers completely off the table to begin with. And I'd say it's still a small number as a percentage of the total number of people each year who leave the ground sporting a rack of gear.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:38am PT
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VMC direct Direct @ Cannon seems to have monkeys on it every time I get up that way. Same thing @ cathedral there is often someone on The Prow, Camber, Edge of the World, Etc. mayby you guys out west just don't climb hard anymore? ;)
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:19am PT
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I have to go with Coz on this one. BITD climbing 11+ on any given weekend in the Valley I would run into climbers whom I considered world class, the Kauks, Clevengers, JB, almost every weekend. I remember the first time I ran into Kauk at Leany Meany. I could not believe how smooth he was. That's world class. I was just a good all around climber.
Ps...I did climb a day with Jardine once after meeting him bouldering at swan slab. I did an onsite of Ahab for the first time and didn't really have much pro but a couple of manky nuts. He didn't seem such a super human climber as some others.
Marty
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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As I recall, a good climber was supposed to be proficient on any type of terrain. This means climbing onsight at your personal limit, on pretty much everything you attempted. Climbers used to wait, sometimes for years, to attempt certain climbs at their limits, because you only get one shot at an onsight.
There is more to climbing than the ability to do hard free moves. Historically, most good climbers did not limit themselves to a single aspect of climbing: Specialization was common, but proficiency was determined by all around ability. In addition to free climbing ability, proficiency in aid, ice, and alpine climbing were considered part of the deal. The true climber does not master one skill set, one type of rock, or one style of climbing, but is proficient in all disciplines.
This is just as important in modern (current) climbing. Who cares what you redpoint after 100 tries. What can you walk up to and onsight on any type of rock? This is the sole determining factor of a climbers free climbing ability, but even this only gauges one skill set. Can that same 5.16 climber lead the A-4 hooks, or the rimed up OW?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 29, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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^^^ +1 ^^^
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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Oh, standards have definitely gone up (as they always have), but it has happened within the context of a veritable explosion in the demographic.
Exactly. And the demographic has been exploding (in the eyes of existing climbers) forever as well. I think of Tom Higgins's play "In Due Time," published, I believe, in the 1972 Ascent, or Roper's "Look What's Happened to Climbing" section in the intro to the 1971 (green) Yosemite guide. Both pointed out all the new climbers.
The rest of the argument is probably just arguing over the definition of "rare." Is the top 1% "world class?" It depends on the activity. If you're talking, say, golf, the answer is a resounding "no!" The top 1% isn't nearly good enough. Climbing? Maybe 50 years ago in the US, it was. Not now.
But 1% sure seems rare to me. Yes, I know plenty of "no-name" climbers who regularly climb at a much higher standard than 5.11, but I know many, many more that never even attempt to climb at that level, even on sport routes.
John
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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I enjoy watching 5.13 climbers fail on the 5.9 Travelers Buttress.
That being said, i doubt I could even get off the ground on the 5.13 climbs they do.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Like Ron said above "The FA onsight". Highly coveted and highly respected. I've never tried harder than this past summer on a new route here in the SLC mountains trying to onsight a 5.10+ finger and wide hands crack that was gritty with lichen on the feet. A glorious experience!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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I enjoy watching 5.13 climbers fail on the 5.9 Travelers Buttress.
That being said, i doubt I could even get off the ground on the 5.13 climbs they do. "5.13 climber" means little. You could have been observing someone with just a few years’ experience on plastic, several years on many different types of rock in Europe with no crack experience - or just a lying wanker.
The implication that a 5.9 OW (and a soft one at that) is somehow so f'n mysterious, cryptic, or requires musculature never used in any other style of climbing, and that these things take years or even decades to acquire - pull your head out of your butt people! Let them spend 1 hour on that pitch and see where they get compared to you spending 1 hr on a 5.13. Take a day if you want and compare that, maybe even a year or two.
As for sticking a nut in the rock vs clipping a bolt - BFD. It's a skill to learn, and it's far easier and quicker to pick up than learning and adapting your body to climb hard.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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JLP,
Ummmm hi, nice to meet you???? I think???
Dude, I never said they would never figure it out.
I also said I could not touch the 5.13 they climb.
Man, you need some decaf...
I'm of the thought that the 5.10 syndrome of yore will die with a generation.
I see gym climbers come out and in a few days they are flying up the 10's that scare the "OLD KNOW IT ALLS".
I frequently say that we are not far away from the Nose on EL Cap becoming just a day route. A bivy will be considered a failure.
Now dude, lighten up.... It's rock climbing. It does not matter.
EDIT: To be clear, I have seen MULTIPLE self proclaimed high grade climbers fail on TB. No big deal, but I speak the truth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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As for sticking a cam in the rock vs clipping a bolt - BFD. It's a skill to learn, and it's far easier and quicker to pick up than learning and adapting your body to climb hard.
Well, given it's likely less than 20% of all climbers actually climb trad, and 90% of those who do typically lead 2-3 grades below their sport level, I'd say there's a bit more to it than just plunging your mechanical manhood into eagerly awaiting cracks or everyone would be doing it and leading at their sport level.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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^^^
JLP speaks truth.
As said before, onsighting is a silly standard for "climbing ability". What goes in a handful of tries is more realistic as a yardstick. Especially once you get off the novice 10s and 11s and get on some actual hard routes. Hard routes where beta is trickier, routes are less forgiving of errors in sequence, pacing, errors in where to stop and place gear so you're not placing from the pumpiest stances, where to place it so you're not obscuring crucial locks, etc.
You can make every error in the book and still onsight 5.10. I know because I do it, often. Wrong sequences, placing gear from pumpy spots only to climb three moves higher and find a hidden jug or restful stance, having to pull V3 boulder problems around 10a sections because I just filled up the bomber lock with a piece of gear.
And Healy is right that most people just don't give a sh#t about certain styles of climbing enough to pursue them to the point of competency. But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.
That is so the truth.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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I'm of the thought that the 5.10 syndrome of yore will die with a generation. No offense to the general ST.com demographic, but I'd say among those actively climbing, it died several years ago.
BTW, I quoted you, took a break, answered a call, then came back and thought I was replying to someone else - but really it's directed to the general view those statements represent.
This thead has gone in a couple circles now, back to the same place with the same people bringing up the same points. Seems done to me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.
And I would be inclined to agree with you.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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JLP
I'm an active climber
I'm not old
You owe a beer.... A COLD beer
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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onsighting is a silly standard for "climbing ability"?
Huh? in my book onsughting is the ONLY standard to measure climbing ability. You can climb however you like, I'd just rather not reduce climbing to a Gymnastics routine.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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Ghoulwej.....do I detect a little ageism, I'm a very active climber and I'm also old.....ask Roadie.
Old climbers don't have to work. Work interferes with climbing more than arthritis.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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+1 for Riley.....come watch the Euro show at IC this Fall.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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To agree with the above "quote" leads me to conclude that you probably havent lead a lot of offwdith
Well, you have me there...
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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Donini, No ageism here.
I was responding to the reference:
No offense to the general ST.com demographic, but I'd say among those actively climbing, it died several years ago.
I know you're an old light weight wanna be climber who carries large cams to "compensate" ;)
Actually I've been thinking about hitting you up for some climbing days together (if I can find time to get out your way) so I can get "schooled by the master".
Cheers,
Jay Renneberg
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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Anytime Jay, do you know how to do a 3:1 hauling system?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
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Yes
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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I once watched two 5.13 sport climbers from Smith try to climb Pente, a very easy 5.11- hand crack in Indian Creek. They both spent well over an hour on it, on top rope. It was quite amusing. By the time they gave up they were reduced to a bloody, pus spewing, quivering mass of deflated shame. They never did make it to the anchors. They never did come back.
On a related topic, does anyone know who this JPL person is?
Whenever I go on a rant I try to attach my real name. that way people will know who to hate. But maybe that’s just an old school wanker kind of thing. Like integrity.
Since JPL seems to have gone off his meds, again, I think the best thing for everyone to do is just ignore his little rants and let the people in the white coats deal with him.
Just a thought, Steve Seats
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 29, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Believe it or not we have 5.14 trad in VT now.... just got the new guide book and been in the reading room.....
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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One thing that seems to have gotten overlooked,
As I recall, the original question was: how hard is the average climber climbing? Not: does climbing 5.11 in all these disciplines put you on top of the heap?
I stand by my original guess, the average climber is on sighting .9+ to .10-, anything, anywhere.
Just my observation.
Steve Seats
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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Good point
YO, JOHN LONG!
What are you looking for, onsight level?
I say the non STopo guys are probably hitting 11 on average
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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"Since as far back as the mid-1970s, the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader. This sounds almost laughable. After all, 5.11 is only borderline expert terrain nowadays. But in fact, there are very few climbers who can go to Yosemite and on-sight lead Twilight Zone (run out off-size crack), Tightrope (run out slab), Edge of Night (difficult flare) Center Route on Independence Pinnacle (thin hands), Final Exam (fist crack), Spooky Tooth (steep and scary face), 1096 (squeeze chimney), and Waverly Wafer (wide to lyback) – and none of these routes are harder than 5.10. Believe it: The climber who has mastered all of those techniques at the 5.11 level is exceptional, and those climbing wide to thin to face, all at the 5.12 standard, number very few in any country."
We got into averages, but here's the original statement posted by JL, just for convenience.
Glad jlp--quick to make the same tiresome points repeatedly--is done with this thread. Missed the point nearly entirely, despite saying quite a few things that ring true to anyone who gets out even 20 days a year (or watches vids on climbing narc, for that matter).
The reason I find the topic interesting is that, upon returning to Yosemite a bit after many years away, I expected that everyone I saw would be walking up all of the 11s. This because the standard is so high in sport climbing (particularly in Europe).
Instead, you find a lot of people hanging all over the 11s. If you see someone float one, chances are they've got it wired (read: Arch, Cookie).
The overwhelming observational response on this thread is to basically concur with the statement: it's pretty rare still. People like Donini and Riley see a lot (count 'em double).
Coz, if you flashed U-Wall, and os of all 12s was so common bitd, I guess 20 guys did that flash.
Even Honnold wrote about falling on a 12+ lieback recently. But I guess he's a sport climber who could learn to climb trad with a lil' work.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2012 - 02:38am PT
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But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.
The problem with this statement is that it comes from a sport climbing mentality - i.e., that the determining factor is physically doing the moves. While cams have come to make the pro a lot better on straight in/dihedral off size cracks, flares and stuff above 7 inches or so remains basically unprotected, especially in the mountains or on big wilderness routes, where sac and seriousness are paramount. A 5.13+ sport climber is not quite the exceptional candidate for this work as is being advertised here. In fact he might be the most ill-trained for the job, seeming that risk and sac have largely been engineered out of his playing field. Trying to reduce trad climbing down to a merely physical enterprise, and then compare it to sport climbing, is patently moronic.
This discussion was not started to discount the physical achievements of sport climbing, which are vast, or the manner in which many sport climbers flounder on routes involving any true seriousness. But it has not been my observation or experience that those with remarkable skill on grid bolted faces climbing are especially suited to leading run out trad routes. That is why comments that on-sight skill is an "old-school" and forgotten art necessarily come from someone who doesn't even understand the topic.
On the actually serious climbs you find in places like where I'm at right now, the Troll Wall, in Norway, the notion that on-sight ability is passe is not accurate. It rather brands a person as someone haunting the lesser walls of the world. No harm in that, but to heap too much virtue on it feels overstated. What's impressive, to me, is the new-school trad dood who is up there right now on-sighting 5.12+ off RPs on pitch 38 or a 56 pitch route.
Shezam!
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 03:06am PT
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...or the manner in which many sport climbers flounder on routes involving any true seriousness
BITD I and the folks I climbed with always assumed pure climbing difficulty would eventually progress to a level where onsights leads on gear would simply not be possible and at that point routes would have to be 'worked'. At the time we assumed it would be somewhere north of a then still non-existent 5.12 and only climbs of that level would be 'worked' in that manner.
What we failed to imagine was a future where 'climbing' for the vast majority of folks at every level would become a succession of work/hang/work/hang/work/hang/done/next. I think that's begun to change somewhat with the rapid rise in the popularity of bouldering where resting on the rope simply isn't an option. But as I said, these days I typically see a 50/50 split between people essentially sport climbing on gear as opposed to what most of us here would still likely consider straight up trad.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:14am PT
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That last post fills me with the urge to vomit! joe is back in the sixtys dissing hangdoggers and preaching from his holyier than thou throne on what a real trad climber is. bunch of small minded BS. The real climbers are those who can walk up to a climb and climb it from the bottom to the top and get home in one piece. The bigger the climb the more real the climber is. Nitpicking how they did it and if they took a hang or two at the crux is for folks with too much time on their hands and not doing enough climbing.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:07am PT
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Hey, the kids are alright. They are kicking ass, and technique has grown by leaps and bounds.
I will never forget watching my first frenchman flail on Outer Limits, but they are so strong that they can certainly learn. Their fitness level is outta sight, so just because they can't do it their first crack doesn't mean that they can't pick it up.
A lot of the trad problems is gear fear more than anything. Even today I see the new bolted stations on El Cap and how complicated everything is.
Geez. One really good cam is fine for a belay anchor as long as you know what you are doing. We always just clove hitched the anchors together for speed.
Bolts are no big deal now. Face it. Also, climbers are much better than they were, and like most sports, the level of difficulty climbs.
The problem now is that if a route doesn't overhang like crazy, it usually just isn't hard enough to bother with. That is why Sharma lives overseas where there are endless caves and arches. I wouldn't be surprised to see sport climbing go underground as they run out of overhangs.
If you think that nobody can climb cracks, just look at the free routes on El Cap. That is the future, and A4 will fade away as something quaint.
I didn't make up the rules. Time did that.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:24am PT
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Got this video in my inbox today - first time I've heard of sport climbing referred to as "bolt climbing." It's a better name.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
One reason 5.13 sport climbers may not be the best candidates to break into trad is their dynamic climbing style and ability to push themselves so hard, like a beat up boxer in the 15th round, who can barely see but can keep driving forward. You have to climb statically and be able to downclimb. If you don't have that approach to climbing trad, you're gonna die.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:48am PT
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Look. Sharma is doing the hardest climbs on the planet. Have you ever seen the video of him sending that unreal Randy Leavitt bolted line on Mt. Charleston? He had to skip bolts that were unclippable, and took all of these MASSIVE falls.
OK. I admit that the screaming is kinda weird.
You could take Sharma to the Valley and he would rule by the end of the summer. Honnold isn't even close to being the best, but he soloed the Phoenix and Cosmic Debris like it was nothing.
We are old farts clinging to our ideas that we are somehow still important.
I was never important. Guys like Kauk could climb me into the dirt from day one to day last. Now there are people who can climb our old heroes into the dirt. I don't know why people think that this is unusual.
The two british "wide boys" who dispatched the hardest offwidths in the country last year had never really even done real rock offwidth before they came. They just trained on evil size crack machines all winter.
Now Randy Leavitt. That is one guy who had some staying power. Kauk, too. They moved from Trad to sport and kicked ass through the transition.
Like I said, you can take a fit 12 year old girl and have her doing 5.12 in the gym pretty quickly. However the gym has strict safety rules and that becomes their mindset. It takes a while to get away from that, but there are lots of young hotshots who dispatch old desperates with ease.
Today belongs to the kids. It has always been like that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:13am PT
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That last post fills me with the urge to vomit! joe is back in the sixtys dissing hangdoggers and preaching from his holyier than thou throne on what a real trad climber is. bunch of small minded BS. The real climbers are those who can walk up to a climb and climb it from the bottom to the top and get home in one piece. The bigger the climb the more real the climber is. Nitpicking how they did it and if they took a hang or two at the crux is for folks with too much time on their hands and not doing enough climbing.
Well, that's one opinion. Part of the discussion in this thread has been about the significance of onsights. From my perspective, clean onsight FAs, clean FAs, and clean onsights define trad climbing. You may not value those experiences, but many here do and for those, style counts, clean counts, dogging counts. And it's not a definition of a climber, it's the definition of 'trad'.
People long ago mistakenly boiled the distinction between sport and trad down to bolts versus gear. And while bolts were a point of contention with the advent of sport climbing, the distinction was never so much the bolts per se as the tactics. So sure enough, you can rap in and preview, clean, tick, and then work your way back up a line hanging on gear all the way - does that mean you're trad climbing because you're using gear instead of bolts? Hardly. You're just sport climbing on gear or 'sprad' climbing. Have at it any way you like for sure, but it's the exact opposite of the essence of what trad climbing is all about - clean onsight FAs.
Sport climbing is what it is and clearly at a certain level of difficulty there is no avoiding those tactics whether on bolts or gear. But that doesn't mean the essence of trad climbing should be boiled down or tossed out. To do so is to entirely lose sight of the essential experience of walking up to line that has never been climbed and doing a clean onsight. Maybe that doesn't mean much to most folks in today's demographic who have never experienced it and never will, but for many of us who have, it remains the defining incentive and represents the whole point of our climbing.
I don't give a rip what or how you or anyone else climbs. What I do care about is that the definition of trad climbing not end up further buried and lost under so much mindless bullshit the term becomes irrelevant. Bad enough it's gone from 'climbing', to 'trad climbing', and is now fast on its way to the shadows of the saddest oxymoron of all - 'adventure climbing'.
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Well said Warbler, JL, and Healeyj. I just cannot add anything except to agree strongly that climbing, to me, is not just a series of physical moves.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Sticking a piece of gear into the rock is elementary school. In a season or two, most interested in the task will become ninjas at it. The hard part is the task of leading itself, and in this regard, finding a stance where you can free a hand and clip a fixed draw, place your own draw or stick in a nut then clip a draw to that - they are all the same skill and this skill varies and gets refined by grade and style of climbing. This is absof*#kinglutely ALL about the movement.
Someone needs to do some more homework on this mythical 5.12+ trad climber, master of RP's, runouts and big walls.
Let's go take a look at Honald's 8a.nu scorecard. He puts it out there, why not? Notice the majority of his climbing is on bolts. Notice his onsight roughly 1 full number below his redpoint. Notice he solos below that. Notice performance on trad routes is usually within a letter of performance on sport. This is typical (rule of thumb) and you will see this with most with some experience (except the soloing). If there is a large gap between sport and trad, you are either looking at a beginner or someone just not interested in or with not much exposure to trad - ie, maybe a Euro. Also, as mentioned upthread, go to the MP.com database or the back of ANY guidebook and see how many hard trad routes are even out there.
Also note that an onsight takes about 10-20 mins. Projecting a harder route takes considerably longer. What are you more likely to see more of as a clueless visitor to a sport climbing area?
Runouts are a direct function of familiarity with a particular rock and style. The vast majority of them were put up and are generally repeated well below the leader's onsight ability. Most of the rest between the gap of onsight and redpoint are headpoints - ie, rehearsed. The remaining 0.00001% are performed by the extremely competent - and even then, the problem is usually broken down to the point that the task becomes reasonably safe given a par level of competence for the route - and they're probably rehearsed and they just didn't tell you. Mythical death runouts done at the onsight level are rare to non-existant.
However - all of this runout stuff is rare - really, most trad-heads are just scared shitless of falling even a couple feet and call their 10 foot section of blank 5.8 rock a bold feat of the mind to overcome. It's not. In general, the harder the route, the more likely you are to fall, the more protection (of various forms) you will find established by the FA's.
This "Bible" is sounding like the Old Testament - harrowing and mythical stories of parting the sea and walking on water, performed by a chosen few granted special powers from God, guiding the weak and uninformed to the promised land of trad mastery. Good luck with that.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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On-site all-around climbing isn't passe. As JL says, there are places where whippers are a bad idea and rehearsal isn't possible.
But it's just one of the types of climbing that people care about and have cared about for a very long time. The thing that is off-putting to me about so many of the posts in this thread is the value judgement that so many posters are making that this style is superior and the people that do it are, therefore, superior climbers.
I think that there is truth in both the OP and some of JLP posts.
5.11 all-arounders are pretty rare, IMO.
Most people just don't care to become that, and some who do care (like me) are limited by our minds in a way that doesn't yield to training as well as the physical stuff.
And just because someone might be able to do something "relatively easily", doesn't mean they have done it. I still see way more who probably could than who have.
Anyone whose can onsite 99% of the 11's that they try is probably sending 12's and 13's too, onsite and often. The only exceptions to this that I've ever seen with my own eyes might be older people who have the technique of a lifetime behind them, but don't have the power that they used to have (when they were sending bigger #'s). I've never met a younger climber with the drive to climb at that level on all terrain that didn't also train power and couldn't bust out some harder numbers on their favorite flavor of climb.
So, I would also agree that someone who's a 5.13 not-all-arounder will become solid on all 11's, if this is what they want to do, a lot faster than someone who climbs lower grades as long as they don't get too freaked out. Many (advanced) foreigners roll into Yosemite, spend a season working on filling in the gaps in their abilities, and at least have a good show on the walls, even if they don't send every pitch.
As an aside, I don't bow at the alter of ow as being a sort of climbing that is inherently harder than other styles at the same grade cuz it's always come much easier for me than many other styles like slab or even overhanging plastic that the kidsthesedays can do in rental shoes.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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Today belongs to the kids. It has always been like that.
I like your post, BASE. It's kind of nice when you think of it like that. Let's you look at what the kids are doing and without the bitterness that taints so many of the posts in this thread.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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Largo. It may be hard to figure what today's climbing demographic thinks of the OP from this site. Most on this thread seem to be "old farts" from the era of climbs you listed in the OP and they are posting over and over again so it's hard to get a good read on what's happening out there from here. Have you interviewed younger climbers in trad areas? I see and talk to many younger people out there in traditional trad areas climbing. Today's "average" climbing demographic is certainly different from the era of climbs listed as you point out in your last post. One can look to the view numbers of climbing vids to see the difference. A slickly produced Sharma vid shows many more times then a well produced vid of climbers on the Bachar/Yerian or even Honnold's solo of the Pheonix. There are of course younger climbers pushing the levels of trad climbing but they don't represent here for whatever reason. So it begs the question as to how relevant a trad bible will be to today's "average" climber? You won't get the answer here as your preaching to the choir.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Ron - a typical no-bolt slab route was put up by someone with the confidence of a drill in their back pocket. They tend to be butt easy otherwise. Yes, there are some notable exceptions. I've done a few no-bolt slabs, 5.9 tops. There aren't many 10's or harder to choose from. Nobody cares about these climbs anymore, nor the people who did them. The risk of injury isn't worth it - to be able to say you did a butt easy slab route and stayed glued. You'll just get some funny looks. The rest have bolts to varying degrees, more bolts as they get harder. As Bridwell said, long ago, you'll grow tits if you spend too much time climbing them.
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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I think we are at the crux. I have been reading JLP's arguments with interest and think he has some valid points. However to equate clipping with placing pro is insane. JLP just lost me. This whole discussion is really predicated on all pro being equal in JLP's eyes. If so then he is correct. But it aint' so. Placing pro is the essence of climbing traditionally. The confidence inspired by clipping a fat bolt, not to mention the time saving reduces the commitment. It is the addiction to the excitement, fear, and the anxiety of trusting that pro enough to move on which make trad different. Commitment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Depends on the comp - most are local and do their own formats. You pretty much always score more points for a "flash" - where you get to watch others. Some formats are flash or nothing, others allow reduced points for a redpoint or even a TR. The finals rounds are usually "onsight" - competitors are held in isolation so they don't see each other. Check out http://www.usaclimbing.org/ if you are really interested, official rules are there.
The various suggestions here that these hang dogging sport climbing gym wankers don't appreciate and train for the onsight is rather ignorant, really. It happens fast and at ~grade less than what they got into the mags for - you probably just missed it - although lots of hard 13-14 onsights are getting reported these days.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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it's like golf...most people lie about their handicap, but if you subject their game to a lot of intense scrutiny, suddenly their shooting closer to 100, rather than breaking 80
Boy, your club must be different from mine (or ultimately, less dangerously dishonest). If there were erasers on the golf pencils at my club, no one would be eligible for the club championship!
John
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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trusting that pro enough to move on which make trad different. You'll either get used to placing and falling on that pro like you clip and fall on bolts, or you will remain plateaued at the grade. It's that simple.
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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That's right plateaued at a grade requiring commitment as opposed to a sanitary, commitment free series of moves. Apples and Oranges.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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As Bridwell said, long ago, you'll grow tits if you spend too much time climbing them [slabs].
What would he say about people who just do sport climbs? Manly men?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
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You'll either get used to placing and falling on that pro like you clip and fall on bolts, or you will remain plateaued at the grade. It's that simple.
I'll stay plataeued thank you. The times I fell on gear, half of it pulled out. So I would not want to fall on it regularly. For ice climbing its worse. One of the main differences between ice and rock climbing is that in ice climbing, the gear doesn't work. lol
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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That's right plateaued at a grade requiring commitment You're speaking of the lower grades. Harder climbing is most often safe to fall on. Stevie Haston has an interesting comment in his blogs - suggesting beginners first get strong in the gym, then skip over all the easier crap you could get injured on outside - and that is in fact the modern trend.
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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JLP you just do not get it. BTW I know Stevie Haston from my Chamonix days. Also his wife Laurence Goualt and I were on the NF Ama Dablam together. We did not see any bolts up there. I don't think Stevie skipped the "lower grades" to get where he is. Climbing is not modern just evolving. You can kid yourself into thinking what ever you like but a fact ia a fact. Given JL's premise, ALL sizes and face,onsight, maybe 5.10. I'm done. To address the comment below; you can hurl insults, but how does that help? Now I'm done
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 30, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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We did not see any bolts up there. Was it the stroll along a golf course that Haston described? I'm sure you two are tight.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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if 5.10 is the new 5.7 how come no conga line on EBGBs?
One of the Kids from Stoney Point, McKenna, lead EBGB's his first weekend out at Josh... after a day of bouldering. Oh yea he had been climbing for a little less than a year.
But he is a pretty exceptional climber.
It got my attention for sure.
I am dismayed by all the climbers who don't even try to onsite or redpoint at all. I guess its becoming a lost art or something.
And to give JL an answer.... 5.11 climber is a rare breed, IMHO.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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JLP
is correct about gym climbers skipping into 5.8, 5.9. 5.10 faster than was ever possible (generally speaking) before.
Ron
Is also correct that they are not as good at using gear compared to the typical 55 year old 5.8 climber.
In reality, these new guys are doing nothing different than those before them except raising the grade of introductory TRAD.
Ron, you learned gear on .6, .7 climbs. A comfy zone where u knew u would not fall; with maybe an rare occasion scare.... Well, .8 and .9 is their comfy zone.
I just had that talk with a new to outside climber. He's been climbing outside for 3 months. He's lead Serenity, Nutcracker, schimitar, the line, and others.
He did not believe gear was possible at the low crux of the line... We discussed the need to know gear... He commented how he doesn't worry about falling on the line so it's a moot point.
It's a new day
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Sport wanking is neither.
I can guarantee that if you go climb Perilous Journey it would still matter and people would still care.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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JLP is piercing egos left and right here...
with the truth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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I dunno about most of what he puts out there, but so far I've found this to be the most revealing thing JLP has said in this thread:
Runouts? Most people I know, that have been in the sport long enough to get good at it - they really like their ankles. They like them a lot.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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Any of you old farts still climb? how many of you really run it out at your limit? INMOP running it out at your limit is not heroic it's stupid.
99% of the folks who rant about how wimpish sport climbing is sew the heck out of their moderate trad climbs. How many times have you seen the trad leader put 4 pieces in 10ft? just imagin how you would get ridiculed if you fired in 4 bolts in the same space. I did a GU FA last week complete with gear ripping whippers that is reasonably steep 5.10 I can gaurentee you that the bolted 5.10 section is braver than the 5.9 crack. Trad ain't no mystery. It ain't rocket science and at least 70% of the time you can place gear at closer intervals than your average sport bolts.... It's all just climbing to me now. No more of this sh#t that I am better than you becuse I put shiny little springy things in the rocks.....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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^^^ Exactly ^^^
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Sport Sled it instead.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs.....using perjoratives like "old farts" is interesting, do you care how old a climber is, or does it make you respect there opinion less?
Much of what you say comparing leading trad to sport is true but you miss the point.
Yes, often in a trad lead you can get in gear closer placed than on a sport climb.
but
There is the uncertainty....come climb in the Black Canyon and sew up an area only to get to a place where the crack ends.....and.....there is no bolt.
in
Sport climbing, even on ones with spaced bolts, there is the CERTAINTY that a bolt will be reached
and
You don't have to develop any special skills (as opposed to puting in your own gear) to clip a previously placed bolt.
maybe
That is why, as has been stated on this thread, most climbers lead a higher grade when sport climbing than they do when trad climbing.
there
Really is a world of difference between the sport and the trad climbing experience. I do both (i was clipping bolts today) I enjoy both but I have a greater feeling of accomplishment when i trad climb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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Any of you old farts still climb? how many of you really run it out at your limit? INMOP running it out at your limit is not heroic it's stupid.
Well, again, that's one opinion. I'm officially quite old now and I still tend to let the line dictate both the runouts and amount of marginal pro I'll live with on my FAs. I'm still taking falls at my limit that come close to my age in feet, but then (so far) I've had a pretty good feel and track record for what I can get away with having always free climbed over a lot of very small and marginal (but very carefully placed) pro - much of it a lot of folks probably wouldn't be overly comfortable with.
Last decent fall I took was a fifty footer trying to get established on a headwall on turning the lip of a roof on a longstanding project. Relatively clean to the bottom of the drop where you then can 'brush' the lower high-angle wall on longer falls - all in all the fall went as I suspected it would, I wasn't significantly hurt other than scratched up, and I'll be heading back up it again once I'm back in shape enough to work that roof.
It's again a matter of skill, experience, and judgement brought to bear on the often minute details of a line and weighed against what the FA is worth to you. Me? I usually only do FAs that grab me at first sight for some reason and then become an obsession until they've had their way with me (one way or the other).
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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I took a lead fall on to a bolt yesterday. It was my first ever lead fall on a sport climb. Does that make me a Sport Dogger?
John Long's point is good and remains valid IMHO.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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Jim, I count myself as one of the old farts these days :) It just seems that with a few exceptions a lot of the old guys on here gripe more than they climb..
I used to think i was hot sh#t because I carried arround all those
little gadgets when I climb. Somewheres along the line i realized that many of the young kids can climb circles around me... the only thing i have going for me is experience at this point. knowing how to do things with less effort. that only works to a point and then you eventualy need some guns to back it up. especialy on 5+ ice. My hardest trad lead is 3 letters above my hardest Spurt lead. for whatever that is worth? maybe my take on this is skewed by all the rad ice and mixed climbers we have here in the north east. our testpieces get climbed quite a bit so a bunch of semi retired climber spouting off that nobody knows how to climb anymore seems a bit odd.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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Ron,
Drilling from a stance pretty much always means you are on a slab. Today, a "slab" is anything vertical or less. Yep. The Nabisco Wall is a slab. Sorta kinda. I grew up with a great slab crag to go to. Since all bolts were drilled on lead, and the FA'ist back then would even skip stances to keep away the riff raff, I grew up running it out because I didn't know any better. I even took a fer real 100 footer that removed about half the skin from my body. The young guys who have gotten used to that stuff absolutely walk up that route. I've watched them, and it is just cool.
OK. I have done very few real offwidth pitches in my life. Steck Salathe was easy to figure out. I don't really remember anything hard about it. The top of the Bismark is a 5.8 layback or a 5.10 squeeze. Do the layback.
I lead the Fissure Brown with no pro or frigging, and it was still kind of feared by the masses. I had seen some pictures in the old Basic and Advanced Rockcraft about squirming and armbars. It wasn't that bad.
One time Walling and Swilliam took about a dozen of us over to TR Bad Ass Momma: then rated .12a (now .11d) Russ did it first, in cowboy boots soled with 5.10 rubber. No lie. Swilliam had it wired as well. Then they talked the rest of us up it except one guy who will remain nameless. I was also getting over a broken tibia in my ankle and had to ride my bike to the route, so I know you don't need the right foot. If I hadn't had Walling and Swilliam chuckling up beta, I would have been at a total loss.
I was pretty much a 5.10 climber. I kind of hit a wall, and no matter how much I climbed, I never got a lot better. However, I became rock solid and could solo right up to the grade. That sounds like spray, but it is actually really useful. If you ever do any zillion pitch alpine routes and can more or less solo all of the 5.9 pitches, you go really fast. So I was a useful partner for much stronger climbers on those kinds of routes. I could also climb ice fairly well, nail very well, and ended up always climbing with much better partners. Myself, I sucked and often gave up a pitch that I knew I couldn't do.
Point being, I was nothing special and could pick up stuff fairly quickly.
Other than the gear, there is nothing special about trad climbs. Sure, a lot of sport climbers need to learn how to do cracks, but have you ever seen the forearms on those people? Training and lack of injury have grown by vast amounts. The strength to weight ratio is ungodly. Girls and Boys both.
Face it. The kids are just better. They are so damn much better that it is a joke. Midnight Lighting is still a gem, but in the world of bouldering it isn't that hard. It is a classic.
It is always like this, and all of the hot climbers from their era still get props and are widely known. We all hail Pratt and Robbins and Sacherer and Bonatti and that whole crowd.
The wanker coefficient is simply a function of numbers. There are at least 10 times more climbers these days. The wanker factor was always there. Hell, I remember yo-yoing with my buds on FA's back in the olden days. Now you pull the rope. We thought nothing of yo-yoing, but hanging was forbidden. The idea of the redpoint was really the first time this was all clarified. Hanging was going on back in the late seventies long before sport climbing. It is a matter of scale.
I am lucky to know enough young climbers to realize that they are just really, really, good. I assume that if any of us turned 15 tomorrow, we would be much better than the olden days as well.
Get over it.
Largo should be thrilled that people line up to do Central Pillar of Frenzy now. I kind of went ballistic when I heard a bolted rap route had been established, but I got over that about ten years ago.
BTW, Fine route Largo. I wonder if anyone has gone up there and yarded on that twig you wrote about.
I wasn't climbing last fall, but was hanging with a bud who climbed like a dog well into his fifties. He would take off from work, grab a box of bolts and his Hilti, and go put in new routes all summer with his buds. He was a good climber in the seventies and is now climbing harder than ever. The 5.14 kids dig him for doing 5.13 with grey hair. These weird old geezers still pulling down hard. They just never stopped climbing and rolled with the times. Yeah. I was talking to this one kid in college and he actually told me that he wasn't any good because he could only do 5.13.
The really weird thing is that one of them climbs a lot of ice in the winter, and even got into modern mixed sport bolted routes because there wasn't much else to do in the winter.
What sucks is that this forum is rather famous for having a bunch of whiny old dudes who, like myself, don't even climb anymore. I like it here because there are old friends around. Plus I get to bitch at Largo. In 1979, I could only watch as their gang soloed every route in Hidden Valley. I was doing my first 5.10 lead.
What is the point about trad anyway? Is it somehow the end of the real bad ass? Is it some way to earn points? Even back in the day, I knew a fair number of super good climbers who just weren't into doing x-rated routes. They weren't into soloing, either. They were still great friends who put up terrific trad routes.
"Hey babe, ya know we used to do Double Cross without the bolts...."
Shoes and pre cams. That was different. Post Fire's and cams, things changed a lot.
I sucked. I admit it. Ask any of my friends. Had a hell of a young life, though.
Great story: When Dale Bard built the first artificial wall I know of, he put these wicked off fingers crack machines on the four corners. Dale could just walk up and down. I would try it and he was right there showing me how to do the locks. Couldn't get my feet off the ground. Dale was from another planet when it came to thin cracks. Still, you know Honnold is better.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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The hardest trad routes of all time are going up right now. So many people are doing wicked stuff in the high mountains now. Too bad that the high mountains kill many people. Now or back then. They still die.
It is true that somebody who can climb any 5.11, with little need for too much pro, and who can climb vertical ice that is only 2 inches thick, can do an incredible number of fantastic routes in the high mountains. That used to be the goal, ya know, of Robbins and that crowd. To take the Yosemite standards and send them to the high mountains.
It didn't really come from Yosemite. Those eastern Euro dudes who were locked up behind the iron curtain are bad ass mo-fo's.
I still think that, though. The greatest routes are probably the hard ones in the mountains. Number grades just keep getting munched slowly away and increase. To live in the mountains you have to go fast, and that means living with not much pro....on purpose. Take a light rack and go fast. It is also by far the most fun, or seems that way from the little that I did.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Numbers are an anathema to the true spirit of ascent.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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I love to get out with young climbers, often i am qite a bit older than there fathers. I continue to be amazed (in awe might be more appropriate) at how climbing standards have progressed. A great thing about climbing is that whatever level you are climbing at, if it is your cutting edge, that level/grade is all that is the case- climbing is that personal.
The major difference in climbing today compared to a few decades ago is the extreme specialization that has occurried.
The nail biting transitions that occur when climbers transition from gym to outdoor, from sport to trad, and from single pitch to multi-pitch are rather humorous to observe.
I am greatful that climbing continues to evolve, activities that become moribund don't stay around long. Humans are often afraid of change but the art is to embrace change with a wink and a nod to the past.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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Donini has spoken well. My other old buddy who is kicking it says the same thing. They would know, having never stopped the climbing life.
I still guess that Donini doing the FA of Torre Egger (was that before the Ferrari route on Cerro Torre?), still holds a special place in his heart.
I remember reading about that about a thousand times as a fifteen year old.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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What is the point about trad anyway?
I dunno, for me it has always been and will always be about simply ending up captivated by idea of what some line presents and then either doing it on the terms it makes available or walking away if I can't.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Regardless of the difficulty, walking up to something you know little or nothing about, climbing it, and leaving little or no trace behind is pretty satisfying, at least for me.
Wandering around the Wonderland and Queen Mountain in JT just climbing stuff we walked up to was some of the most fun I have had climbing.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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Right on StahlBro.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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Back to the original thoughts of Largo...
I think there are flairs, palming liebacks, rattly fingers-1" to 1 1/4" straight in jambs, and certain offwidths that require technique and balance that are learned skills and not natural. Fist, slabs, fingers, roofs, etc are places youth, power, and muscle can take over and dominate. A while back, some 'euro-sport climber' basically was trained on joshua tree cracks and in a week and flashed Equinox. Maybe then the classic finger crack is really much easier than it seems. I have long been an advocate of rating for single hardest move which would knock many routes several grades down. A sustained 5.3 is not 5.5, therefore a sustained 5.11 is not 5.13. Another key is onsite ability WITHOUT any beta-not even a photo-how well can someone do route x. I know a Steiger classic on Mt Lemmon that is you set up with the wrong hand is nearly impossible vs getting it right in the first place (Pegasus on mean mistreater- does not help on lead you are feet out from pro).
Another question can also be raised that the numbers chasing has bypassed a set of technique dependent moderates. I wonder if the wide boyz would have done well on more 'puke inducing' offwidths then the roofs they specialized in. (jaybro-is Deliverance @ pinnacle peak more technique dependent than say improbability drive @ granite mountain or paisano?)
Last, the whole Honnold thing. Peter Croft was rocking sh#t 20+ years ago and just a little more low key than professionals of today. There are 300 great climbers you have never heard of of the last 100 years that have done solos that would make your eyes melt.
I'll tell you what. We take all these super athletes over to Dresden for a month, sick them on routes without having them get a drop of beta or see each other climb. No cameras, no fireside chat- anonymous ability. Lets see if Ondra and Sharma can really compete with Bernd.
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TomT
Trad climber
Aptos.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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I think I saw a video where Honnold walks up to an x route in Dresden and does it no hesitation.. my eyes melted.
I think I saw a video where Sharma is taking multiple falls from 75 feet into the the water in Spain- my eyes melted.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
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I am climbing better rock than ever in my 50's. I gave up the hand drill for good I hope! That effin hand drilling works your tendonitis pretty bad. the bosch is heavier but gets er done! I am not physicaly strong enough(shoulder injury) to be as good on ice as I was 10 years ago but still haveing fun and leading 4+ off the couch... It's all good. No bitter old guy syndrome here...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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Climbing in Jtree every winter I get to meet a lot of climbers from all over. It never changes you have a select few super bad asses like my friend Fabi who onsite hard stuff but mostly you have some pretty good climbers and then a bunch of beginners. Not many crank 5.11 trad in Jtree based upon the stories around the campfire.
I consider myself a trad climber (a bad one) but recently moved to the Philippines and have been climbing on limestone for the first time (sport climbing). I can definetly tell I am getting much stronger and climbing better than I ever have. They locals think I am pretty brave for trying to onsight everything (mostly unsuccessfully). I tell them I'm not brave I just want to give myself the opportunity to have the thrill of adventure while also believing in myself enough to succeed.
I have fallen in love with climbing all over again. Climbing is about the people and places (think of all the awesome belay seats you have ever had looking out over an amazing valley) you meet as much as the level of route you climb. I am having the time of my life (with my new friends) and that may explain why I am climbing better than ever more than anything else.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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I'm still a bit confused about the concept/comment on being well rounded when the OP is so Yosemite-centric.
Honest question, how many of the supposed "5.11 climbers" that were part of the average from the 1970s were onsighting hard grit?
Also, I don't get the snide, backhanded insults of the Europeans. Didn't Edlinger make Grand Illusion look like a cakewalk? Isn't one of the most iconic photos of climbing in Yosemite Gullich soloing Separate Reality?
I realize that Yosemite is a testpiece, a legend, and the cradle of trad and aid climbing, just like Chamonix is the cradle of modern mountaineering. I know quite a few French climbers, some guides, some not, who onsighted Astroman no problem, after spending a week or so in the Valley getting quick at building anchors.
While healyje may be technical right about the "average" climber's abilities relative to all those who don a harness and climbing shoes from time to time, whether indoor or out, the well-rounded climber who onsights 5.11 trad/sport is just not that rare - maybe not a dime a dozen, but they weren't a dime a dozen in the 1970s either. Of the Euros and Californians that I know, who are no-names by any media standards, I can count at least 10 people who climb at that level (let me reassure all of you, I am not even close to being one of them), and I'm just one person. Hell, one fine day about 8 years ago I was leisurely cragging at Donner Summit (Snowshed wall) and I witnessed no less than 3 different climbers cruise up Panic in Detroit (5.12b) after all warming up on Monkey Paws (5.11d).
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 31, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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the observation--the data--is holding up pretty well according to new responses here.
Still we have people confusing the observation with the explanation of the observation.
There are dozens of reasons why it's still pretty rare to see .11 all--rounders. Top of the list might be that most climbers don't care. Why is it anything other than patently obvious that great sport climbers can be great trad leaders when they care for the game?
If you need any evidence for standards, bouldering tells the story of the past 100 years most concisely (and there aren't that many crack boulders, outside of Woodson). Spare the complaints about pads, too. People do hard-as-nails moves way above pads that are about as scary as anything you can do on a rope. Hard moves are the measure of a rock climber.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 31, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Round (they know who they are) all--rounders are perfectly content with 5.9.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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I had a totally different kind of intro to rock climbing, at the gunks. Fear of heights and scary rusty pitons were a big part of it. It was much more about conquering the unknown and conquering your fears. Some people just got stuck at 5.7, it wasn't their physical limit by any means, just the point they got too scared. 5.8 would be an entire grade scarier. When I moved away from there I had led about 25 of the 5.10s, but had never tried to lead an 11-. That was my fear level I guess.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Lots of times I am more scared over bolts than gear??? YMMV it's all in what you are used to...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Bouldering sends the most people to the hospital. Just because what you're doing feels scary and commiting doesn't mean it's scary and commiting to the next guy. A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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He has a bit of a point. Who do i trust to belay me on a serious climb? I will take a sport weinie over mr trad bumbly any day of the week. The spurt climber has actually caught leader falls.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Don,
That looks hard.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
I think the distinction between sport climber and "trad head" is in your head. Most of us do both. Though I do a lot more sport climbing now than trad, the idea that sport falls are "scarier" than trad falls makes me wonder where you ever got such information. I don't even think of sport falls as falls, just misteps.
JL
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Nice Don! thanks. Best climbing video I've seen in a long time,
Steve Seats
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yeah John, the dude most have found some of the drugs that we didn't get to when he made that statement.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's a sport climbing video...and 11+ is kind of a warmup in most Euro areas.
Falls - sport v trad. Depends on how the area is bolted. In Bocan, it seems rare to climb beyond the last bolt at your ankle. In Rifle, to provide some actual examples, on extremely popular middle of the pack 12-'s such as Easy Skankin', Pinchfest and Cardinal Sin, you will see dozens of 10-20+ foot falls on any given afternoon. In Eldo, you may see a fall of that magnitude on a trad route once a month or less. Most trad falls aren't falls at all - it's more like downclimb and take, if that - usually just a transition to aid climbing with no fall at all. Even an actual fall is usually with gear not below the ankle. If you disagree, please list some routes where these big falls are nearly as commonplace.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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The Quarryman’s four pitches range from 6b (5.10+) to 8a (5.13b). The crux pitch, referred to as “the groove,” is the most recognizable feature of the climb, an extended flared chimney. The lack of good feet and the necessary utilization of creativity have led the 8a rating to be considered a sandbag.
That "chimney" pitch is 8a.
This video might make Largo's point about people doing both...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Stunning climbing and don't miss the huge whipper outtake.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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^^^I like the cool Totem Cams^^^^^^
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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tarek,
Nice video.
JLP, take a look at that video.
This guy sums up a significant diff.... He is constantly refering to "if the gear holds... if the rock holds..." Lets face it, we don't have too many bolts pulling out or biners breaking in bolt hangers (Save me the whining of rare examples, because placed gear pulls and f's up too often to compare to bolt/biner failure). This concern is a contributing factor to why you see fewer TRAD "whippers" than you see on sport climbs.
SIDE NOTE: steep over hanging pockets, I know it's all the rage, but I still just don't feel it.
I respect it, just don't feel it.
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raymond phule
climber
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A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
Make sense to me. How often do trad climbers actually fall?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Never. the leader must not fall!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's a super rehearsed headpoint lead on gear of a bolted sport route - and a rare event at that. Are you posting that in support of my points or JL's? Anyone can find dozens of similar videos on youtube.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I do not like the distinction between trad and sport anymore. I hate my screen name. I prefer to be just a climber. It seems these days the climbers I trust the least are the ones who prowdly declare that they are TRAD climbers and get all bent out of shape every time they see a bolt. Small minded wankers INMOP. Spurt climbers and pad people are pretty amuseing as well. They think they are so special because they climb big numbers but they miss out on so many great climbs simply because they do not want to take the time to learn how to use the gear.
The real climbers are simply climbers. Just as happy on a steep bolted line as they are on a long run out slab or a splitter crack. Even better are the climbers who can crank Grade 6 pillars and hard mixed ice, cruise the alpine, aid the big walls, climb the big trad routes and pull hard on steep bolts.. The pebble pinchers are just training to be climbers:)
Uli Steck is a real climber. Cranks 5.14 Spurt and can solo the North Face of the Eiger.. How can you go wrong with that skill set!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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If you disagree, please list some routes where these big falls are nearly as commonplace.
You're confusing the issue here. The point I tickled out of your post was concerning the seriousness of trad versus sport falls, not the frequency. I fell more during my first year of sport climbing than during my entire trad career. But I always found a 20 foot airball ripper onto a half inch bolt a much tamer proposition than heading up on Black Primo, say, which is only 5.12a but a few pitches have only a few points of good pro.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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John, seems like you are talking about poorly protected routes more than gear vs bolts.. heck there is a climb @ Rumny that I won't do because it is a weird move that gets you all banged up if you blow it. there is a bit of that going on in the ice world. there are folks who have no problem on bolt protected WI6 or bolt protected M7 yet can't lead a lot of the big 5+ ice routes because the gear is so sketchy. Those big 5+ climbs get tons of traffick though because there are a lot of well rounded strong ice climbers these days.. Speaking strictly rock it seems that you are makeing the distinction between folks who climb dangerous routes and safe routs. I totally agree. There are very few climbers getting on truely dangerous poorly protected hard climbs these days. There are tons of folks climbing well protected hard climbs be it bolts or gear.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ron, you are an Idiot if you think a real 40footer on to a #3 RP is fun or something to aspire to.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Any climbing route is dangerous. The bumblys who have gear rip and deck on a G rated trad climb are just as capeable of killing themselfs on a spurt climb. In our sport rock climbs that are rated R or X are considered dangerous regardless of if they are bolt or gear protected.. Often wide cracks and slab foreget to mention the danger rateing yet most climbers know the drill and expect enhanced danger on those pitches.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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And they are the same bumblys who lower off the end of their ropes spurt climbing..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I started clumbering in the 70s. For one brief shimmering moment I was what JL described - a 5.11 climber competent on all ground and at a high level of difficulty and commitment. And I will tell you it is a different world. There is absolutely no viable comparison between A big number sport climb with pre-hung draws on a radically overhanging 30 meter face and being 2000' feet up and 80 feet away from the last good pro you placed. One endeavor is a gymnastic exercise of extreme difficulty and minimum risk and the other is mental exercise of extreme difficulty and maximum risk.
In all my years of climbing I have taken less than two dozen real leader falls. However what I lacked in quantity I certainly made up for with spectacular quality. including a 50 foot grounder on to my head. But I don't like to fall. For me falling = failing.
The sport that captured my passion was called climbing not falling. I always climbed in a way so as to be in control enough to not fall. Thus in all the years in the Black Canyon I have only fallen twice. Both lead falls both due to ripped hooks. By the way the hooks were for free climbing pro and failled when tested taking me with them. They were not pleasant experiences. And to be sure there were innumerable situations where falling would have been a certain death.
Conversely I took a lead fall just a few days ago on a sport climb. My first ever fall on to a bolt. Pffff, Meh and whoopty Doo. Yes the moves can be awesomely difficult, a numerical wonder but come on really the commitment is approaching zero. So it is ridiculous to equate quantity of falls on sport routes with quality of seriousness.
Climbing for me has always been about exploration and discovery both personal and situational.
It has been about taking on the medium of ascent in as fair a means as possible - meeting the mountain on It's terms if you will. Modern drilled, pre-hung and rehearsed to death "big numbers" climbs, while stunning from a physical capacity perspective, are akin to hunting buffalo in a paddock.
I would bet you could turn a really good gymnast into a really bad ass sport climber far easier than turning a really good sport climber into a bad ass trad climber. A 5.11 all arounder, competent on all types of rock, snow and ice is a far rarer cat than a 5.13 sport climber.
And a far greater accomplishment as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Philo. Most of those all arounders that you talk of sport climb and do not have a problem with the bolts. They just climb.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Tradman, I didn't say they didn't. I even sport climb these days because it is just climbing. And I am a whimp.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother repuglican with a titanium Sack... just what the world needs..........
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Why the boring arguments about sport v. trad? No one cares anymore.
Per the original question, I agree with Coz and don't think 5.11 climbers are rare. In my pre-child and career climbing days I could onsight hard .10/easy .11 most places and in different styles. The first time I went to the valley I did a bunch of hard .10s, face and crack.
Among the committed climbers I knew in Flagstaff and Tucson I was below average.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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By the way the hooks were for free climbing pro and failled when tested taking me with them.
That's what I thought, hooks don't look strong enough to use for pro. So a leader fall on the Bachar Yerian means .... ?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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2000' feet up and 80 feet away from the last good pro you placed. Name the pitch.
I'd guestimate 1/4-1/2 of Rifle, for example, is occupied by people with a shitload of trad experience. Hong, Kennedy, Thesenga, various locals of the same vein most wouldn't recognize. If you are looking for difficult high quality routes with natural pro, you will eventually you run out of routes - to the point where, at the higher grades, they don't even exist.
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steve shea
climber
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Dru Couloir direct, Colton/MacKintyre Grands Jorasses, Jackson/Shea NF Droites, West Face Menlungtse, NF Pyramid ...more, lots more, all trad, all well over 2000' out, all involving big runout pitches. Unless you think only cragging counts. Run out of routes? You need to get out more. In 40+ yrs of climbing all over I did not even scratch the surface. Nice post Philo. Now I'm done
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yea but you think taking huge whips on micro gear makes your penis bigger and you vote against healthcare......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dosen't the fifi get stuck on the bolt? that was as much a gear climb as a bolted climb. I tagged the drill up when the gear fizzeled out..
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I just learned on another thread, you put a cord through the hole in the top of the fifi hook and that's how you disengage it from above. I never knew what those holes were for. As I recall, someone said this was developed for ice climbing, but I'm not sure the details.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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JLP how about The Diagonal Will to name just one route. Or pick any number of pitches in Death Valley on the Forrest Walker for another. When we nearly freed the FW (50 to 60 moves of aid left) in the early 80s it was significant. By the way there is only one bolt on that entire route. It is on the last pitch and was quite unfortunately placed on repel and consequently is in a horrible location where clipping it is problematic. But it was the only truly substantial piece of pro in the previous 1000'. Of course it is now over 30 years old so your average bad ass hang doggin' take & hang climber wouldn't touch the route with a 2000' foot stick clip. It's not your down stream weenie roast.
I agree with Steve Shea, you need to get out more, the air conditioned air of the sport gym is making your mind moldy.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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It seems there are lots of subjects in this thread. I might be
able to throw out a few thoughts...
I have seen some of today's climbers, very gym-trained and strong,
master 5.12 and 5.13 sport climbs, such as the Web, in Eldorado,
and not be able to do Supremacy Crack. That might just be a matter
of their focus, that they have developed their skills around
overhanging face climbs and have little experience at, say,
hand cracks.
When in the mid 1970s, a new generation started to appear, individuals
such as Bachar and Kauk and David Breashears, and some strong
people in other areas, such as the Gunks, they seemed so intent
on pushing hard that they got real good at real scary climbs, such
as Perilous Journey, 5.11 totally unprotected. Charlie Fowler,
for example, part of that new crowd, soloed the DNB and the Diamond.
We can imagine those climbs, and certainly the Casual Route on the
Diamond isn't such a bad solo perhaps, but boldness... that was
how they began to surge ahead in general. I believe their increased
ability, strengthwise and techniquewise, allowed them to pull off
certain climbs. I was terrified to think
about some of their climbs, although on a good day I could out-boulder
many of those top climbers then. So perhaps it was not so much a
physical transcendence as a mental one.
In my own experience with 5.11, it was more or less the top of the
grade of my day, the 1960s. If it didn't push one to the limit
it wasn't 5.11. If something was at your limit, you couldn't simply
waltz up it without it messing up your hair, so to speak.
Then as I grew in experience and became more able to
do 5.11 I led probably hundreds of them, not all in perfect style,
but many. If I got even slightly out of shape, though, I couldn't do
that, not come close. I could always return to some climb, though,
with which I was familiar, and, out of shape, manage a halfway
decent way up it. I loved to repeat favorite climbs, because I
could still feel like a climber and enjoy being on beautiful rock
with a friend. I was more frequently off form than
on, or just not as active and fit. I was often defeated if there
was a runout or danger factor, though on occasion I did a few
scary ones. I preferred to make things safe. I have
always liked to have a couple of good points of protection nearby
(as TM Herbert would say, at my nose). Some of the new guys were
unbelievably strong, and yet they didn't do gymnastics as did I.
It was a mystery to me how they got so strong. Again, I believe
in was in part a mental transcendence that gave them some of that
ferocity and power. As I got older, and heavier, I found I could still
do hard climbs by virtue of years of experience, and that I had
technique I had not lost... Such technique, not unlike karate,
becomes instilled in one, almost automatic, and I found I could
do hard things when my strength lessened radically. In England,
for example, on rainy frigid day, I impressed Charlie Fowler when
in a coat I led the Left Wall of Cenotaph in strong style.
Had the weather been better, I might have backed off. Who knows?
Up until 1984 I could still do the Right Side of the Red Wall in
a slow, static way, with a controlled reach to the knob above.
Now I can only look at that knob.
On occasion I found moves on climbs that were like boulder routes
I had mastered. Thus I could push those climbs. I did a number of
5.12 routes, at the limit of my ability, during a period of time
when I was nowhere as fit and strong as I was when I was younger
and when 5.11 was my limit. Clearly I too benefitted from that
consciousness that the new generation seemed to acquire. It touched
me as well, though not with the same strength it infused the
young.
I don't know if I'm like anyone else, but I have been different from
one day to the next. A certain day I was a 5.10 climber, if I
could keep it all together. Another day I was a 5.11 climber and
could do most any 5.11 put before me, crack, offwidth, or otherwise.
Then there were times I could only climb if I had very good
protection. On another occasion I didn't seem to need so much
protection. I see in my own experience I wide range of moods and
dramatic variations in ability depending on all sorts of things.
I have watched the various generations, from Henry Barber to Lynn
Hill, and they are unbelievably talented individuals. Henry,
for example, was just incredibly fit and had a great mind for it.
He was not an exceptional physical athlete, though. I could do
all sorts of boulder moves that were akin to gymnastics, and he
would simply look and laugh. But on a bold lead anywhere, in his
day, he was close to if not the best. People have picked on Lynn
for years for being so featherweight light, for her tiny hands that
fit into cracks we can only get our knuckles half into, etc. But
what she has is pure god-given ability and so much technique you
can't measure it. She has had everything one can have, pretty much.
Many of today's climbers are very tiny, thin, even super young
people, and weight is definitely a factor. You see how the young
girls' gymnastic team operates. If one of them gets a little taller
or heavier, a few years go by, they lose that magical and
crucial lightness. I have cited Eric Varney, a fellow who was pencil
thin and walked up one day to the boulders and did the Varney
Direct, a little testpiece yet. He knew little about climbing, but
he could pull himself up so easily, with no weight. That's one
reason we can admire someone such as John Gill, who is a relatively
large man and developed that one-finger one-arm lever strength.
Incredible. Alex Honnold simply has the gift of mentality. He is able
to stay in control as he climbs near his limit. That perhaps is
a new level of consciousness. Is he better than other climbers
before, in terms of technique, strength, or other things? Perhaps
not. Probably Greg Lowe was stronger way back in the mid-60s... But
that Greg climbed so well then, and did so many bold things,
without the level of consciousness the world now enjoys... is a real
tribute.
It's all very complicated, and no broad generalizations work too well.
Wow, I didn't mean this to be so long. I just started typing, and
haven't even said a tenth of what I could... But yes there is a
progression of ability through the years, for various reasons. And
each of us has our own individual experience, which only we truly
can know....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Good post Pat & Happy belated birthday.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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When we nearly freed the FW (50 to 60 moves of aid left) in the early 80s it was significant. Which pitch, on Diagonal Will, that you've lead?
I don't have the topo in front of me, but isn't FW 5.10+ tops (mostly 5.7, 5.8 through bushes and broken ledges - love the Black) up to the Stratosfear traverse? So, you put the 10+ in FW's 5.10+ A2 modern grade? Congrats - that sounds super significant. Not. What were your friends Coyne, Dunn, Webster and Hong doing at the time?
You still haven't named a specific pitch with a 80 ft runout 2000 ft off the ground. I've done quite a few routes in the Black, but I don't recall an 80 foot runout on any of them - nor even 2000 feet of climbing. These mythical high end routes of RP's and death falls are sounding more and more like windmills to me.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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JLP, have you been on the Painted Wall? I have significant doubts that you've climbed anything in the black. But your mouth sure flaps a lot. All my climbing down there was with out bolt kit, cams or micro gear so yes in those days longer runouts were what you faced. And yes we did add to the free climbing difficulty of the Forrest Walker. Sadly Leonard brought the PW down to his level by rap inspecting, rap rehersing and rap placing gear on the Stratosfear. It was shameful.
How about the pre-retro bolted crux pitch of Gwondonnaland Boogie? Will that work for you?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Whenever listening to climber spray about runouts use climbers math. Cut every claimed distance in half ;)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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More BS from Philo, but no details. Tradheads hate giving up the details. Everything was climbed in a storm using soft dogshit as pro, too. All I see are windmills, endless windmills...
There's no doubt hard trad routes exist and some of them have long and scary runouts. It's just that very few of you seem to have a clue about them, other than that they exist. You seem to feel that placing gear on your moderates somehow connects you to them and gives you a better understanding of their nature. It doesn't.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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This is kind of painful to watch.
JLP says:
"If you are looking for difficult high quality routes with natural pro, you will eventually you run out of routes - to the point where, at the higher grades, they don't even exist"
Truth.
And ya'll come back with some smug dumb sh#t about "go to the Sierra" or name off a bunch of mixed routes in the Alps first done generations ago. Your collective inability to put forth an actual counter argument speaks volumes.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Wherefore art thou Dulcinea?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Deja vu all over.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The OP's premise is that hard climbers haven't gotten any harder because doing 5.11 70's style is still hard and the exact same % of the climbing population is forever plateaued there. The conversation moved on from there. It's not a surprise some of you haven't been able to keep up, given the content of your posts.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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No that is NOT the OP's contention.
That is your mistaken counter contention.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Ron, aside from politics you and i agree quite a bit.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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seeing as there are really only about 10 people posting on any given thread on the Taco it is a pretty small sample of the user group.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I'm just glad i can climb anything.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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5.8 for me...
Put up a bunch of 10s and a few that might be 11? but the criteria is any time, anywhere...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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The OP's premise is that hard climbers haven't gotten any harder because doing 5.11 70's style is still hard and the exact same % of the climbing population is forever plateaued there. The conversation moved on from there. It's not a surprise some of you haven't been able to keep up, given the content of your posts.
Nice try - but you've whiffed again. You keep projecting your own ideas onto what I have said, including positing me as some defender of old school trad doctrine despite saying in plain English that I mostly sport climb these days.
Trad climbing has steadily progressed but as most people know, the all-around trad expert seems to be as rare now as he was back in the stone age (1970s). This is not a knock on sport climbing. In fact it's not a comment on sport climbing at all, which is a totally different animal.
Understand that as an author or how-to books, I can't come off half-cocked and suggest strategies that will get people hurt. And you have nearly preached the diabolical notion that sport climbers are uniquely suited to crush the trad venue if they could only be bothered to try. This might be true providing there was a top rope present. As is, suggesting that physically gifted sport climbers are uniquely suited for sometimes grave psychological challenges is not only way to much to expect from those schooled on a medium where the risk has been virtually eliminated, but it is advice that will get people hurt in no time.
You sound like an avid fan of sport climbing, like me. But where we differ is that I would never tell "Young Charles" (16, and cruises 5.14) at my gym that he should jump right up on Cream with a cam or two because it's only 5.11a after all. You might as well just run the poor kid over with your hybrid.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ya but some of the strong kids have turned into animals outdoors. I gave a trad lesson to a gym rat a few years ago . kid was leading 11 sport but struggleing on trad. 15 pieces and a few hangs on a 75ft 5.7 was the cumulation of our lesson. a month or so later the kid was leading spicy trad 10's and has led 12 trad.. Like the big man said.. It all starts with good genetics..... some folks got it, some can learn it and the rest of us can have fun trying.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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...the all-around trad expert seems to be as rare now as he was back in the stone age (1970s).
It all sounds so vastly different restated in these words.
...sport climbers are uniquely suited to crush the trad venue if they could only be bothered to try. This might be true providing there was a top rope present.
Good luck selling that today. Maybe Ron and Philo will buy a million copies each.
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raymond phule
climber
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I don't really understand why trad climbing seems to be equal to climbing r and x rated routes in this thread.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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By any chance does the P stand for "punter"?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I don't really understand why trad climbing seems to be equal to climbing r and x rated routes in this thread.
It's not but that does not stop the old guys from thinking they have to have a pissing contest ;)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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"Old Guys"! Are you talking to me?
For me it is mostly an effort to counter JLP's contention that 5.11 trad climbing is insignificant because of the big numbers "hang & take" climbers are putting down.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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^^^ Well said Ron.
Another important thing is less how hard a climb is and more how well it is climbed.
The Dunn-Westbay on the Diamond and the Hallucinogen in the Black are both now free routes.
I don't see sport climbing hard cores lining up to do those in the best style possible.
Climbing 8000 meter peaks without oxygen was a positive move forward to the world of ascent.
Pre-hung sport draws was not.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Just because you are a elder does not mean you have to come off like a cranky old fart...
seems like some of the kids are doing really good things out there and most of them do not get their pantys in a bunch over bolts..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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It is NOT about bolts. I have put in a total of 4 and removed 5 but I have accepted there part in the wider world of climbing.
And it's not about being cranky old farts. Besides with all my surgical steel I am a "Clanky" old Phart.
It is about perspective. It's about what matters.
Chances are that a true 5.11+ all a rounder would fair better keeping up with the bigger number sportsters than those who had focused so intently on big number bolt routes would have keeping up with the former. Being able to eventually work up a 5.14 in the gym or sport cave, while admittedly impressive, in no way equates to being a good climber.
Before he died John Rosholt had become a 5.13 onsight trad climber. He was exceptional on all 5.11 terrain. He was what JL meant and he was a rarity. The numbers mean less than the larger perspective of climbing difficulty and purity of ascent.
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steve shea
climber
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Purity of ascent. In a sport where there are no rules, no referees etc. there are some values/ethics that, although self imposed, are more important than any number or summit. I think those of us that value the ethic gain far more than any number would imply. As I stated earlier I do not disrespect sport climbing, I just like what trad climbing offers in way that cannot be measured by numbers.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Steve that was well said and resonant.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Chances are that a true 5.11+ all a rounder would fair better keeping up with the bigger number sportsters than those who had focused so intently on big number bolt routes would have keeping up with the former
Ah, now we're up to 5.11+ all-arounder. In any case, laughably delusional.
The sad part is, I think you actually believe your own bullsh#t.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Things have even changed acoustically - in Eldo the mid-70's on a busy day you heard "falling" yelled periodically throughout the day. Last time I was there it was an incessant din of "take!".
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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OK so I went to a fund raiser several years ago that had a climbing competition for shwag. Thing is the event was held at The Spot in Boulder and featured a biggest throw dyno contest up a steeply over hanging wall. Well along comes jonny Copp (RIP) who, in the spirit of the event, decides to give it ago. Clearly Jonny was more ripped than any of other burlymen contenders that night but his efforts were less than stellar, Along comes Mike Aldridge who at that time, and perhaps still, held the world record Dyno throw. Well i gotta tell you Mike's throw was awesome. It was way beyond my comprehension. Now Mike is a damn fine climber, a hard boulderer and certainly the man can fly. He blew Jonny away at that comp. But you would be foolish to put those two men on the same page of significance
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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It seems like everyone is having their own personal argument on several different topics:
1. There are not many climbers that can onsight 5.11
2. The 5.11 benchmark is a laughable relic from 1974
3. The value of onsight climbing is a laughable relic from 1974
4. The real measure of a climber is the willingness to risk injury/death
5. Sport climbing sux
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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theres a BUNCH of 10/11 "leaders" that ended up in the hospital or worse this year that MIGHT disagree with you ElCap. Two were on my routes locally alone.
What does some people cratering off moderate trad routes have to do with a claim that 11+ all-around guy could keep up with a 13/14 sport climber?
No amount of "mental steel" is going to enable your 11+ guy to suddenly be able to pull double digit boulder problems in the middle of a sport pitch. Conversely, being WAY stronger than necessary will allow your big number sport guy to hang around and figure things out, climb things less than optimally, run it out over what feels moderate to them, etc.
Let's not forget that Sharma went up and lead every pitch on the Rostrum with the .13 Excellent Adventure finish as his 3rd trad climb ever IIRC.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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So the arguably the best sport climber in the world was able to lead a challenging trad route with an impressive finish.
Who is the best trad climber (Honnold, Potter, Caldwell????) what do they lead on sport?
but the thread is about HOW RARE A ALL AROUND 5.11 CLIMBER IS!!!!
How rare are climbers like Sharma, Ondra, Caldwell, Potter, Steck, and Honnold?
Answer: Just as rare as BACHAR
As for me I am an all around 5.8+ trad climber who sometimes is able to lead 5.10 trad clean onsight.
My first 3 months sport climbing on limestone (first day, first route onsight 5.11a) consistently able to lead 5.11b and I am 40 years old. Had never sport climbed and had never climbed limestone. Currently training for 5.12 roofs that are at the local crag for me. Have several first ascent multi-pitch routes ready to lead (climbers here dont have the cash to put up for bolts or for slinging huecos).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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So the part I am not getting here is if there are no 5.11 trad climbers or even as many of you claim no 5.10 trad climbers then who is climbing all these desert towers? who is running up the VMC direct direct every time I get up to Cannon? we had to wait in line to get on Duet Direct. Very often in Corth Conway I see folks Free climbing The Prow. heck there has even been a line on Intimidation a few times..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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You guys keep saying it's in the one percent yet I keep running into those one percenters so it makes me think the math is fuzzy. It gets real interesting here in the winter. You think you won't have to wait in line for grade 5 and harder ice but guess again... some dude usually shows up and solos your route while you are racking up...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And he's what percentage of everyone who owns a pair of ice axes and crampons in New England?
A lot of folks here would have a tough time in intro Statistics I'm thinking.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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day after Christmass last year was my first day on the ice as we had a really bad start to the season. We did the Black dike off the couch. The party behind us did Fafnir off the couch and on the hike down we ran into a party that had just finished Omega off the couch. No well known hardmen in the bunch, just your average north eastern ice climbers...
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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You sound like an avid fan of sport climbing, like me. But where we differ is that I would never tell "Young Charles" (16, and cruises 5.14) at my gym that he should jump right up on Cream with a cam or two because it's only 5.11a after all. You might as well just run the poor kid over with your hybrid.
hilarious.
makes perfect sense.
Climbing ain't just numbers, 'cept when your number's up.
It seems that hard-won wisdom to some here equates to: if you are super strong bouldering or sport climbing then you could be a solid trad leader in a short time. Well, whoop-dee-freakin-do, how many times can you repeat the obvious? Hubers did it--heck, course setters in my local gym did Freerider, with almost no "trad" experience. (But did these guys say, "ah, 5.11 trad is a piece of cake"? Not eggzactly.)
I guess my last comment on this thread--great job, Largo, must be having quite a chuckle--is that in my experience, it's easier to go wrong on a trad route than a sport route. This frequently results in the climber turning a 5.11 into a 5.13, effort-wise and can be a disaster. There are all kinds of stories on ST (Grossman coming out of Midterm comes to mind) to this effect. I can't remember ever botching a 5.11 sport route in the way that a trad 5.11 can veer from an ideal ascent.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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1. There are not many climbers that can onsight 5.11
5.11 sport is entry level shite. We all know that. Even for me, and I'm 1,000 years old. 5.11 trad covers a wide array of things and chances are in areas like Josh and the Black Canyon, you'll have to work some to dick a grade that is trivial on the clip-and-go circuit.
2. The 5.11 benchmark is a laughable relic from 1974
For sport climbing, absolutely. But I defy you to find one person - sport climber or otherwise - on the face of the earth, who can hike up to Basket Case, on Basket Dome (a ferocious, multi-pitch off width), lead the whole thing in half a day and declare the route an absolute joke - a laughable relic.
3. The value of onsight climbing is a laughable relic from 1974
True, if your aspirations extend no higher than Smith Rocks or Rifle. But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
4. The real measure of a climber is the willingness to risk injury/death
Not true in my opinion. And neither is the opposite true - that is, someone afraid to brook any risk at all is unlikely to measure up as a "real" climber, though he might do fine on the grid bolted dink around cliff on the side of the road - which is pretty much where you'll find me these days.
5. Sport climbing sux
I love it, and am not ashamed to say so. I used to run the rope like a champ but these days - not so much.
JL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Since at least one offshoot topic seems to be sport vs. trad, I just want express (to all you people out there) a sentiment that I have felt for many years now. I am so blown away and impressed by what I see folks doing at the gym, that my default prediction would be that a huge percentage of these climbers would be just crushing sport and trad routes alike. "Outdoor" 5.11 should seem trivial. I've always been the type of climber who leads very close to my top (not very high) bouldering ability. If I just had that talent, I'd put it to good use.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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For sport climbing, absolutely. But I defy you to find one person - sport climber or otherwise - on the face of the earth, who can hike up to Basket Case, on Basket Dome (a ferocious, multi-pitch off width), lead the whole thing in half a day and declare the route an absolute joke - a laughable relic.
Stevie Haston, if he was in a pissy mood.
Dave MacLeod and James McHaffie could do the same but they would never sh#t on a route just to boost their own egos.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
The myths continue. Onsighting and speed have nothing to do with each other. Onsighting is the slowest form of climbing most will do. Speed climbing = aid climbing. Onsights of the free routes on El Cap, for example, haven't happened yet. Freeing them under a certain time mark - daylight or 24 hr - is generally a highly paced and logistical affair - and generally rehearsed. A strong free climber with good gear placement and "wall" skills will indeed have the potential to move much faster when they start pulling on gear, but it's not a given unless they've practiced climbing that way. The guys that are among the best at climbing this way aren’t necessarily among the best free nor aid climbers.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Fix it or F*#k it...bitchin' don't do sh#t.
Except make ya a whiner......
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Degaine
climber
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Largo,
With all due respect, I find your definition of "well-rounded 5.11 climber" to be extremely narrow. Why is that?
Without a real study, all of this is just anecdotal evidence anyway, isn't it?
Again, I know of at least 10 or 12 people who climb 5.11 trad regularly, and who are also solid ice climbers, mountaineers (climbing hard alpine mixed stuff), and even (gasp!) sport climb. Maybe they are part of the non-celebrity elite and they just don't know it.
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Degaine
climber
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The OP's claim is that the 5.11 trad climber was ubiquitous in the 1970s, and that in 2012 finding the 5.11 trad climber is a once in a blue moon occurrence.
My comment is that the 5.11 trad climber today is not a rare occurrence.
But 15,000 people in a niche sport is quite a few, and not the equivalent of a rare bird sighting.
But hey, if it makes everyone over 50 feel good that climbers were such hardmen/hardwomen back in their day, it's no skin off my back, this is all just mental masturbation anyway.
P.S. My guess is that the beer was colder in the 1970s as well and that a greater percentage of climbers in the 1970s walked to school in the snow barefoot than today.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Ron, the OP said not a thing about "percentages". He pasted a quote and said he agreed. The relevant part of the quote:
"the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader"
Which is laughable.
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steve shea
climber
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Ice climbing, mixed and big alpine routes do not count. You cannot introduce that stuff into this discussion. You will not be taken seriously. It is not climbing, El Capupyourass says so. Also, Tradman you need glasses. I'm from Franconia. Spent two months there this summer and was in the notch daily. DAILY, and saw one party on VMC dir. Cannon is a rubble heap that ice there is beginner stuff. HEH HEH
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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This thread is becoming a "tempest in a teapot."
Time for everyone to GO climbing.
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steve shea
climber
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Yeah, John you really stirred the pot with this one. It's been fun. SS
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've been dealing with a bad case of stirrer elbow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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interesting thread, as usual, JLP comes in and chips away at the apparent cluelessness of us old folk...
What's rare these days is finding a modern climber who gives a rip about 5.11 and under. The benchmark sandbags you all cite are generally only difficult on the onsight because they are odd. That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.
which I suspect is probably true. What would be a real contribution to this forum, perhaps in another thread, would be a description of "all that is happened in rock climbing since the 80's" written, by JLP, no doubt an interesting topic and one I am particularly interested in these days.
Pat Ament's history takes us up through 1999 or so...
...maybe we should just heed donini, but then again ECIYA tells us to be more-than-pathetic and renounce our "junk food climbing" addiction and train for real. I think Munge's trainer's advice is probably the best.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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Sort of amazing to watch how reactionary things are. First, I simply mentioned that in the 1970s, there were plenty of people who did 5.11 but few all-around folk who did all disciplines. I noticed that nowadays, while most all of us have gotten much better at overhanging face climbing, the percentage of all around trad climbers who cranked at the relatively modest level of 5.11 didn't seem to be any higher.
There was no mention or claim that there were NO 5.11 trad all arounders out there, or that the old were better than the new, or any attempt to make a case for BITD centric ego stroking. This, then gets twisted into a polemic of me supposedly dissing the new breed, to which I know nothing about, despite having just done a hardback photo book with stories from Honnold, Caldwell, Rodin, Hill, Potter, et al.
So we start out with the observation that the percentage of all around trad climbers doesn't seem to have risen much over the years, to the accusation that I am blowing smoke up my generation's ass and am totally out of touch with what's been happening in the climbing world since 1980.
Yowza!
JL
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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What would be a real contribution to this forum, perhaps in another thread, would be a description of "all that is happened in rock climbing since the 80's" written, by JLP, no doubt an interesting topic and one I am particularly interested in these days.
Besides being dumbed down to benefit the lowest common denominator?
Curt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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....and it goes like this. Round and round and.......just like this thread.
must say though....I'm with Largo.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I noticed that nowadays, while most all of us have gotten much better at overhanging face climbing, the percentage of all around trad climbers who cranked at the relatively modest level of 5.11 didn't seem to be any higher.
Just to clarify - things went downhill when you (and others) declared the ability to onsight a pile of relic sandbags from the past to be the mark of the "all arounder". It's not. That whole line of reasoning, quite popular here, is a joke, really.
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raymond phule
climber
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"relic sandbags"....IE routes done with stunning style and the average joe today is scared shytless to even look at them. popular excuses include : Stupid route, dangerous route, relic sandbag...
Why is do you talk about average joe? I doubt he did those routes in the seventies and I know that he didn't do those routes at the end of the nineties. It really is not that strange that he does not do those routes today.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nice thread everyone are talking about completely different things...
So you think that the opening post was about average joe?
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raymond phule
climber
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I don't remember JLP saying that but maybe he has.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Why not contribute your own list then? I did, above.
Have you contributed anything to this thread other than personal attacks? You sound like a noob with nothing of value to contribute. It seems you can't process the argument, so you go after the poster - like a 4th grader.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Just to clarify - things went downhill when you (and others) declared the ability to onsight a pile of relic sandbags from the past to be the mark of the "all arounder". It's not. That whole line of reasoning, quite popular here, is a joke, really.
---
Fine. We take you at face value, that you're not merely flaming and that you have some criteria for your convictions. I'll go with that. Granted that we are talking about trad, NOT sport climbing here, what exactly, is a theoretical or provisional list of TRAD climbs that you feel would NOT be a joke in delineating a MODERN all around TRAD climber.
In other words, if you feel that my list of trad climbs were "relic sandbags," kindly provide an updated list that might better represent the modern all around trad leader, as you know him or her.
JL
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steve shea
climber
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In fact JL's op merely suggested that MASTERY of all techniques required to lead trad wide to thin, is very difficult to achieve. Mastery! It goes on to say a master 5.12 leader is a rare bird. I think it is true. Mastery of a discipline is not an occaisional grovel up just to tick a route.
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Degaine
climber
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Actually steve, it reads:
The climber who has mastered all of those techniques at the 5.11 level is exceptional
And many of us are stating that, while a good climber, the 5.11 trad leader is not exceptional.
Regarding the rarity of the 5.12 trad leader based on the OP definition, well, I'd probably have to agree.
I never received an answer to my question (though perhaps it's implied in the OP), were the guys in Yosemite referred to in the quote capable of onsighting hard grit in GB?
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Degaine
climber
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Ron,
You're talking about the elite, and my understanding of the OP is that we were not talking about the elite.
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steve shea
climber
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I think the 5.11 trad leader who has mastered all climbing at that level as to be a walk in the park is very difficult to achieve. I did not know many that had BITD. Now I think although more common it is still tough. 5.12 more so. This is the point, a master would be elite.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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But if you ever want to speed climb a big wall, or climb the legendary routes in the Alps or Patagonia etc., on-sight ability remains a vital skill.
-
The myths continue. Onsighting and speed have nothing to do with each other. Onsighting is the slowest form of climbing most will do. Speed climbing = aid climbing. Onsights of the free routes on El Cap, for example, haven't happened yet. Freeing them under a certain time mark - daylight or 24 hr - is generally a highly paced and logistical affair - and generally rehearsed. A strong free climber with good gear placement and "wall" skills will indeed have the potential to move much faster when they start pulling on gear, but it's not a given unless they've practiced climbing that way. The guys that are among the best at climbing this way aren’t necessarily among the best free nor aid climbers.
You silly rabbit. "On-sight" here means, "I have never seen the route before. I am climbing it "on sight," with no rehearsal. The ability to simply walk up to a climb and dick it, any style.
It's also totally mythological that speed wall climbing is always researsed. Dale B. and I did the 2nd one day ascent of El Cap on a route we'd never climbed before, and that was 500 years ago. Also, you say that the guys who are French Freeing El Cap, for example, in record time, are not amongst the best trad climber - kindly give an example.
The problem with your reasoning is that is it not entirely grounded in real world facts, and is full of half truths. I mentioned a list of routes and some chime in and say for the modern dude those are nothing - but there is no one personally claiming to have done those routes, or ones like them, be they 40 or 5 years old, who is saying that at all. Or the long list of people who could easily march up to Basket Dome, solo Basket Case and call it a total joke. Name a single person who has actually done this. It's all just smack.
They tell me that climbing is roughly 20 times as popular as it was in 1975. Let's say that back then there were 500 people who could lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines, from English Grit to Yosemite off width to Black Canyon mixed, to run out Tahquitz face. That would mean that today, given that the 5.11 all around trad leader is common as some insist, that it's no big deal, there would have to be at least 20,000 climbers who could with the greatest of ease dick all the routes on my original list and call them "laughable." The amount of 10,000 would simply represent the same percentage as there were in 1975. 20,000 is only a two fold increase in percentage.
I'll bet you that if we got everyone on Supertopo to list all the people they knew who have lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines - thin to wide, face to chimneys - we might muster a list of 3,000 or maybe 4,000 folks - hardly ubiquitous in a sport in which several million practice regularly.
JL
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Now I'm not gonna read this whole thread. But I will, without knowledge of what's been said before, state unabashedly that it's a rare bird who masters 5.11 OW. 5.12 in that discipline are those who are rarer still.
So right there we have hit some sort of mark.
5.12 sport climbers are a dime a dozen. Heck, even I at one point or another could muster that grade, and be me far from rare...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I posted a list above, a few days ago, of climbs on quite a few modern to-do lists, that would require quite a variety of skills.
However, there's no list that defines a climber. I've seen, followed and created so many ticklists - I have yet to complete a single one.
I'm certain a balsy but strong kid in his 2nd year could make a "sh#t-show" send of your list (I have names..), another with 30 yrs of "experience" basically just recreating might be super silky smooth in their comfort zone, but melt at half the standard of the same list. Who's the master?
My answer would simply be the more you know about climbing, the better you'll be able to recognize and appreciate it when you see it being done well.
Michael Loughman has a memorable few paragraphs in his book "Learning to Rock Climb" about finding a mentor/teacher - that you have to watch them climb - on hard rock. I would agree. This sport is ALL about the movement - of finding and setting gear, running it out, or sending 5.14 on bolts. You'll only know it after you've seen it. You have to watch them climb, and it has to be on something "hard". They will make it look easy.
How hard is "hard"? All I know for certain is both the mean performance and the standards of mean difficulty have risen considerably since the 70's. Big time! Sorry, I don't have a specific number. Sometime in the 80's a few decided the "onsight" style of climbing was limiting the expression of maximum performance on rock. Things moved up from there, both redpoint and onsight.
The "all arounder" is simply a function of their interests, motivation and time devoted to improving. It's something that gets "deeper and wider" over time, not specific routes completed.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Also, you say that the guys who are French Freeing El Cap, for example, in record time, are not amongst the best trad climber - kindly give an example. Ummmm...Hans Florine? Definitely not in the same catagory as the partners he chooses.
Back to work.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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I think the "finding and setting gear" on a full range of 5.11's would cull the group of climbers by quite a bit. (and I'm not even mentioning the type of gear used).
I think some of those guys that stood for unthinkable time on nothing slab in their EB's while hand drilling a bolt still go in my book as having some of the biggest cojones around.
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Degaine
climber
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Ron,
You're definitely not ball cupping...you're giving him a reach around (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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I'm certain a balsy but strong kid in his 2nd year could make a "sh#t-show" send of your list (I have names..
----
I'll challenge you on that statement. There might be a handful of people who have done that list with only two years experience - I pretty much did - but making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable - and I wager that you can find no such person who would claim as much.
I contend that your claim that the metioric rise in sport climbing standards has produced a climbing athlete that can eat alive all preceding climbs, world wide, in any discipline, from thin cracks to run out faces to horrific off widths, by virtue of their prowess developed on clip and go face routes, is a total and complete fiction backed by no real world evidence.
As mentioned, it is strictly mythological that sport climbing prowess translates to immediate mastery of the trad milieu, to where the longstanding testpieces become "laughable."
JL
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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A late friend was traveling in Europe a long time ago, and was fortunate enough to bump into a couple guys who were friendly, easy-going, and willing to show him some climbs. He quickly realized they were much better than he was, but nevertheless they were happy to take him up really high quality climbs in the 5.7 and 5.8 range. When he departed, he had made two new friends, and so a year or so later, when they first visited Colorado, Bob was happy to reciprocate, putting them up as they made their first climbing tour of the States.
Bob soon realized that not only were they climbing well - these two were rapidly knocking off one Eldorado testpiece after another, a style that they replicated all the way to Yosemite.
Wolfgang Gullich and Kurt Albert went on to legendary fame and status, while Bob eventually quit, save the occasional Flagstaff bouldering jaunt.
Now, imagine the flipside - some gumby Euro guy wanders naively into Yosemite, where he is taken under the guidance of Bachar, Kauk, Bridwell, who obligingly show him classic Valley moderates.
NOT.
Face it, all the neuroses revealed within a large portion of posts in this thread display how puerile, narcissistic, insecure, and self-absorbed American climbers (at least aging Valley climbers) still appear. To paraphrase John Salathe, "Why can't we all just climb?"
* My chosen style of climbing is better than yours (and so I am therefore superior to you morally, intellectually, spiritually, if not financially), so eat sh#t and die, MoFo* appears to be the common theme here.
My friend's story is 100% true as close as I can remember - can you imagine if you got to go climbing with Robbins, Frost, et al in their heyday, with no clue who they were, what their reputations were, and without them ever bothering to announce it all to you? Why are so many American climbers, at least posers posting here, so many self-absorbed jerks?
Donini might remember another story from the Tetons - I only heard from others, so the details might be off, but in the late 70's when a lot of strong rock climbers were guiding there, some farmer came out on vacation and signed up to climb the Grand. He did well and had so much fun he took advanced rock as well, easily following Guide's Wall, then I think the Snaz, which was 5.10 - except he was climbing in Hush Puppies! The climbers took him up harder climbs, and eventually got him to buy some E.B.s. Then, Charlie Fowler wanted to do like the second free ascent of the South Buttress (rt) on Mt. Moran, the hardest free route in the Park at that time. This guy was his client, after only 2-3 weeks of climbing. They hiked in to the base, where they discovered he'd forgotten his E.B.s, so while Charlie led, this guy followed the route, free I believe, in his Hush Puppies! They apparently took him to Little Cottonwood Canyon or someplace where they finally found a route he couldn't do - but none of them could either. Then, he thanked everybody for a swell time, waved goodbye, and vanished forever from the climbing scene. I'd love to read any firsthand accounts recalling this tale.
Last, when Kevin Donald ran his school in Eldorado, he had at least one client/beginner follow the Naked Edge at the end of a week, perhaps because unlike other schools, Kevin never let on that just because you were a beginner, you shouldn't be able to climb some particular route that was supposed to be reserved for the few elites.
Consequently, talented novices advanced without preconceived notions of what "difficult" was supposed to be. Note, these exceptional few were never leading, only following, so the "game" was a lot simpler and safer.
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raymond phule
climber
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They tell me that climbing is roughly 20 times as popular as it was in 1975. Let's say that back then there were 500 people who could lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines, from English Grit to Yosemite off width to Black Canyon mixed, to run out Tahquitz face. That would mean that today, given that the 5.11 all around trad leader is common as some insist, that it's no big deal, there would have to be at least 20,000 climbers who could with the greatest of ease dick all the routes on my original list and call them "laughable." The amount of 10,000 would simply represent the same percentage as there were in 1975. 20,000 is only a two fold increase in percentage.
I'll bet you that if we got everyone on Supertopo to list all the people they knew who have lead 5.11 trad in all disciplines - thin to wide, face to chimneys - we might muster a list of 3,000 or maybe 4,000 folks - hardly ubiquitous in a sport in which several million practice regularly.
When I read the OP I didn't think that the numbers of 5.11 overall climbers that the quote talked about where on the order of 500 1975. So Astroman where a big deal even though 500 climbers in the world could onsight all types of trad routes at that level?
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Degaine
climber
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Hi Largo,
I hope I'm not nitpicking, but I think there's a difference between "trad" and "crack" climbing, if your use of the word trad is "trad vs sport" as in placing gear versus clipping bolts.
Don't mistake me for the 5.11 climber we're discussing, I'm not, but I've climbed quite a few face climbs that took only gear (belays bolted or pitons), on both limestone and granite.
JLP's clearly trolling, but I don't think the transition to gear placement from sport is necessarily that hard depending on the situation.
I do agree with you, however, that someone with only 2 years of experience face climbing, will need time to transition to successfully climbing cracks, especially off-width.
Cheers.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable No - "shit show send", to most today, I think, means: desperate, gear falling out, lunging, slipping, inefficient, scary to watch, etc. They still get the tick all the same.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Uh...just said my piece on the Slab Climb thread.
But, and so why is it, that every time I go over to Middle Cathedral North Apron, my partner and I are the only ones there? Maybe one other party, on a busy day?
Lot's of 5.9 and 5.10- all over the place. And all you need rack is less then a half dozen pieces.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Question to JL:
Person climbs 5.11:
crack fingers hands like a superstar
Offwidths good enough
Tuolumne slab just fine
Same person shows up at a French sport crag, what should he expect to be leading by the end of a week?
Vice a versa too.
EDIT:
I ask JL because I think he has, or has seen this path before
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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making a "shit show" means that they found that list of climbs trivial and even laughable
No - "shit show send", to most today, I think, means: desperate, gear falling out, lunging, slipping, inefficient, scary to watch, etc. They still get the tick all the same
I suppose it's possible that people use expressions differently, but I hear (and say) "shit show" all the time in the context JLP uses it, never in JL's. Just sayin, in case it works its way into a glossary in a new book or article.
A minor gloss: "shit show" doesn't mean that the climber was successful, although it doesn't preclude it either--just means that thing were generally f*#ked up.
Here's the first def from urban dictionary, the others are generally the same (clearly this isn't climbers only slang):
1. sh#t show 872 up, 255 down
A description of an event or situation which is characterized by an ridiculously inordinate amount of frenetic activity. Disorganization and chaos to an absurd degree. Often associated with extreme ineptitude/incompetence and or sudden and unexpected failure.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Steve. I have not been to cannon Much in the last few years but literaly every time I have been there has been a party on Direct Direct. last year the day isa and I did moby there were 2 partys on the Direct Direct. 3 years ago I went up there with my CO partner Alex Spencer. He wanted VMC but there was a party on it haveing a bit of troubble getting through a seeping section so we went over to Duet Direct which was drier but waited to get on that and another party was behind us. This July Alex was back east and wanted to have annother go at VMC so we hiked up there and there was a party on it. Maybe I simply attract climbers who are way better than myself? Hey lets make that tradman guy feel like a wanker today;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yea, we have all watched a sh#t show where we were just waiting to have to scrape the kid off the talus and somehow they flail their way to the top and live...
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I went and did routes that my heros were putting up (the ones i actually HAD the sack to do) and it was because of their being able to do it directly helped me summon sackage to do them.
Ron, that's why some of my climbing friends became lifetime friends, because they inspired me and pushed me to my limits. One good friend who I wont name routinely lied to me about route ratings because he thought I could climb harder than I was. Then there are the people you read about in magazines. Even now, if I read about some sketchy adventure, I'm left in awe sometimes, of what other people are able to do. Im sure you all know the video, Yosemite Ground Up Perspectives - it ends saying that Yosemite is a place where heros come from and where you go because you have heros. And once all the heros are gone ..... its going to be like FRANCE.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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No disrespect meant to anyone, but I never looked at or considered any climber as a "hero". Not even in the broadest sense of the word. Climbing heroic? Not in itself, perhaps their have been displays of heroism within the sport, as there can be anywhere in life. But the act of climbing, no matter how bold, doesn't constitute heroism (nor hero worship), imo!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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No disrespect meant to anyone, but I never looked at or considered any climber as a "hero". Not even in the broadest sense of the word. Climbing heroic?
Then you must not know what "hero" means, or maybe you don't know anything about climbing.
Top level climbers are obviously "heroes" "in the broadest sense of the word."
If you can't find a couple definitions of "hero" that describes top-level, traditional climbers and mountaineers . . . sheesh.
a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage
2
a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work
b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3
plural usually he·ros : submarine 2
4
: an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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I don't think the transition to gear placement from sport is necessarily that hard depending on the situation.
The reason I have contested this statement is that as an author of how-to climbing books, I get massive feedback from people as to what I am saying in those books. Quite naturally I've muffed a lot of thee subtleties in explaining things, or trying to, but it's tricky because the whole sport is a moving target.
But one thing that has been driven home over and over is that we are doing the clip and go climber a grave disservice by telling him that because he has developed Hereculean finger strength he has only to focus some little attention on trad climbing and he'll be a regular Tommy Caldwell in no time.
For starters, not even a third of the sport climbing population has the mindset or risk management skills to even be interested in trad. But the real damage here, and the danger is significant, is in conning the sport climber that he or she SHOULD be able to just crush trad climbing so long asthe interest is there. If they can, it will have little to do with their sport climbing background, but rather because they have a natural aptitude as an adventure athlete. And the fact is, the ratio of natural born adventure athletes has not changed that much because human nature has not changed. Sure, the modern sport climber is a regular human fly, but we can't cut the legs off these people by telling them that by all means they should be leading 5.12 cracks out at Josh by their 3rd weekend of trad climbing.
The feedback I've gotten from a lot of people is that I've insinuated that the transition into trad is "not necessarily hard," and is somehow vastly lessened by dint of their gym time. In fact, the people who take readily to trad would have anyhow - and they are not the majority by any means. This has nothing at all to do with back in the day old farts or any of that. It has to do with the simple fact that not everyone has the mentality to handle, or to want to even engage, vertical adventures. The much more gentile sport climbing, short, hard and elegant, seems sexy and hip, whereas running the line off RPs 1,000 feet above the floor or the Black Canyon and bivouacing in ditches and drinking your own urine and hauling a 100 lb pig - not so much.
JL
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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but we can't cut the legs off these people by telling them that by all means they should be leading 5.12 cracks out at Josh by their 3rd weekend of trad climbing.
First week trad climbing:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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AE I love watching Wolfgang and Kurt climb! Cool story.
When I began climbing with my wife late 90's early 2000's we ran into a girl about 16 years old in Jtree who climbed with us. She was much better than we were as we were inexperienced. She was proud to say that she had bad parents got involved with the wrong crowd way young but had learned to climb from Ron Kauk and she considered him her dad(whether he knew that or not I dont know). Only knew her one day and never bothered to check out her story (how could I).
Point being I am sure the stonemasters and Yos climbers have a preconcieved reputation but I bet you they took people under thier ample wings many times that we have never heard about. Read the tribute threads to Bachar for example...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I guess I just don't get it. I am always baffeled by the folks who lead several grades harder on bolts than gear. I see people take 20 min and longer to set belay @ 2 bolt anchor because all they know how to do is lower. It just does not compute in my brain. Climbing is just climbing and it shouldn't be that hard to figuer out how to put a little springy thing or a wedge in the rock that will hold a decent fall. Maybe that is because I started in an era when there was no sport climbing in the north east? most of the people who have a hard time with trad simply do not practice trad. they have a shiny rack that stays shiny when they go clip bolts or top rope. If they actually used the stuff every time they went climbing the learning curve is pretty quick..
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Largo - your post garbles together noobs, strong sport climbers, danger and sticking gear into a rock. I can't make anything of it other than you seem to be talking about noobs and noob problems in a thread about hard trad. Yes, I agree, trad climbing is dangerous for noobs.
Love ECIYA's video though. Strength and movement skills are king. Look at that guy's footwork and ability to lock off and get gear in. It's amazing. Where did he learn that? He learned it from stopping to clip bolts.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Hey JLP, perhaps you would grace us with an mpeg of the sound beating a dead horse makes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Cmon Philo. You got to admit that was a cool Video... It is annoying that JLP has no real name and is elusive when asked for specific routes, names, etc. but on the otherhand there are lots of folks out there climbing really cool hard stuff. Someone just posted a TR of a long 5.11c tradclimb on the taco yesterday....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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No doubt TradMan a cool vid.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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That video proves JL's point! I just went through Kevin Jorgeson's entire blog.. There is no mention of climbing any kind of offwidth's besides this on the black diamond site.
Worst climbing experience? In the summer of 2008, I somehow managed to get horribly off-route on the Regular Northwest Face of Half Dome, on the pitch that leads to Thank God Ledge. Instead of cruising on 5.9 hand cracks, I ended up in what looked like a 15’ section of offwidth. I had heard that you needed a #4 on this route and simply assumed that this is where you needed it. So, I crawled in and started making my way up, barely. When I reached that 15’ mark, what I thought was the end of the crack was really a change in the angle of the wall. In reality, the offwidth continued for another 40 feet! With no gear and no choice, I pushed on. Bloody. Grunting. Heaving. Scared for my life! When I reached the end, I was so delirious, I was surprised not to be on Thank God Ledge. Looking around, I finally spotted where I wanted to be, down and to the left about 30 feet. Luckily for me, a series of cracks and flakes allowed a safe down climb and relinquish of the lead.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/climbersskiers/regional/detail/username/kevinjorgeson
Not to say he couldn't, but he doesn't, yet... would he be considered an all-arounder?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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Largo - your post garbles together noobs, strong sport climbers, danger and sticking gear into a rock. I can't make anything of it other than you seem to be talking about noobs and noob problems in a thread about hard trad.
---
The OP began with hard trad but thanks to you, we get derailed into the sport climbing camp. Trying to foist that turn onto me is what we call in psychology a "reversal," a facile kind of wank. I've made my drift simple to follow, but perhaps not simple enough LOL. So listen upp and get your head clear. It's not so very difficult to grasp. To wit:
Your understandings are based on common misconceptions about many aspects of the climbing game - specifically, that one can simplify things down to knucklehead basics and still maintain some modicum of accuracy. This is itself a sport climbing mindset - eliminate everything but the physical moves. When you don't do that, it doesn't, perforce, result in a "garbling" of noobs, sport climbers, danger, and sticking things in cracks. These, you silly punter, are the actual ingredients involved when sport climbers transition into trad.
You have trad noobs (no matter if they climb 5.14 sport), you have the relative dangers of run outs and placing/falling on hand placed gear, you have folks sticking things in to the rock. These, as most anyone here can attest, are the basics of the game. If you are confused by this, then I would suggest that trad climbing is probably not in the cards for you.
JL
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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This definition of "all-arounder" still seems to be incredibly US/Yosemite-centric and focused on climbing a variety of different "crack" widths (crack in quotes because it includes things like off-widths and chimneys), while grouping everything else into either "slab" or "face" climbing and not crossing the subtleties of various non-crack trad styles. For instance, how many of these alleged 5.11 "all-arounders" could climb every style of British trad, ranging from the highball-boulder style of hard grit problems to the overhanging, power-endurance style of climbs that climbers such as Dave Birkett and Dave MacLeod have established? (although the climbs put up by those particular two are usually more like 5.13/14 climbs over ledge falls or death gear). Some people here seem to think if a route is made up of pockets and pinches then it's "sporto-weenie stuff".
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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This thread is about people validating different valid points yet still arguing with one another. In my meaningless opinion:
The all-round 5.11ish trad climber is not that rare and hasn't been for awhile- at least among climbers that get committed to the sport. If you include the weekend warrior set (which now includes me on a good day) then standards get lowered just by sheer numbers. Sure, dangerous, oddball and sandbagged climbs get less traffic, but your run of the mill 5.11 hands/face/fist/slab/whatever is just not cutting edge stuff for a climber that gets out all the time, is moderately committed to training and does some road tripping.
Sport and gym climbing have drastically improved standards. I climbed with a hard sport climber guy that switched to trad and immediately absolutely crushed 5.11/5.12 trad---circa 1994. Placing gear is not rocket science. On the flip side, many current trad climbers are one fall away from ripping an entire pitch. It has more to do with common sense and mechanical aptitude than where and on what medium one learns to climb.
Climbing in places like Patagonia and the Himalaya/Karakorum require alpine mountaineering skills probably not obtained sport climbing or in a gym.
My two cents.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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^^^werd.
By % it's rare.
By # notsomuch.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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These, as most anyone here can attest, are the basics of the game. Indeed, I would agree. Your book sounds like it will be for beginner-intermediate climbers, at best. Eventually they may want to learn how to actually climb.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I think this is a dumb question.
Everyone knows that a gym environment has rules to keep it safe. They have to.
For us old farts, we often started with zero instruction and if we could hang in there, work our way up to actually working with trad gear. It wasn't a big deal, but hey, that is how we were brought up.
It isn't the fault of newer climbers that gear seems scary. They have known nothing but fat bolts closely spaced together. If they even do decide to go outside (many don't and still call themselves rock climbers), then it is weird enough to get into sport climbing.
That is one reason why you have such a massive population of boulderers. I was reading an article on the Rock & Ice website about an 11 year old girl who is fast becoming one of the best female boulderers on the planet. Anyway, bouldering does not require a rope at all.
It is a give and take kind of thing. Nobody is at fault. I don't think we were more courageous or anything. Hell, the gear was usually good. If it wasn't, you new it before you went up.
So it seems odd that these amazing climbers have this huge gap between their true ability and their ability when placing gear. There is no doubt that they are better climbers than the old farts. It is psychological. Once fierce boulder problems are now dispatched with ease.
I will say one thing about the boulderers. It is a cheap way for them to go climbing. Shoes, a pad, and a chalkbag pretty much. They then work themselves up to some pretty wild highball problems that would scare the crap out of anyone.
To me it all seems pretty clear.
I would be curious to see if there are more sport climbs than old trad climbs now. One thing about sport climbing is that it pretty much increased the amount of climbable rock by an order of magnitude. I remember driving through Rifle before sport climbing. It looked fantastic, but there was no pro. Pulled back out onto the highway and headed to Eldo or Yo or wherever.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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It has more to do with common sense and mechanical aptitude than where and on what medium one learns to climb.
My point is that the person who glibly transitions from sport climbing to trad would almost certainly have done well as a trad climber had he or she never done sport climbing. The skilled trad dood has a totally different mind set than the sport climber. Sport climbing is a terrific physical prep for trad, but without the nogan for leading on gear, route finding, and running the rope, all the mechanical aptitude and common sense won't get a leader far.
He writes:
These, as most anyone here can attest, are the basics of the game.
Indeed, I would agree. Your book sounds like it will be for beginner-intermediate climbers, at best. Eventually they may want to learn how to actually climb.
I'm co-authoring the book with Peter Croft. It takes you from our beginning noob days out at Josh and up at Squamish, to FFAs of big walls, new routes in Patagonia and Pakistan - in other words, "actual climbs."
But it's not an expose on our careers - even I don't care about that - but a means of using anecdotal narratives to bring the overall process to light, from paddling on slabs, to short fixing on one day speed ascents.
It's a bear to try and break all of this down but while these discussion (on this thread) will always be circular, that are instructive to me in seeing other's perspective, and to see what ground people defend, and why.
I've pretty much said my fill here so this is it for me. But my point in offering those initial lists was not to glorify "sandbag relics," or to even tie this or that generation to a given climb. Climbs themselves span the ages. The broader question is: How do people approach the same climbs over time? What are the constants? The universals? What are the changeless elements to the actual routes, no matter what we bring to the game - a sport climbing background or a yoga practice. Rather than get sidetracked on who comes to the trad game, and how, and wherefore, and what advantages they bring over last year's crop, the instruction lies in examining the game itself. And the basics have changed surprisingly little since Robbins and the boys first jumped on high and pulled for glory.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think that JLP makes a number of valid points throughout this discussion, though he seems to have some chip on his shoulder regarding recognition of the accomplishments of the "younger" generation, amorphously described...
in his post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1907316&msg=1913951#msg1913951
are a number of very good points and directions for the discussion, if we can get past his "Marvin the Paranoid Android" presentation style...
first off, climbers have only so much time to accomplish their goals, and as we oldsters know time is fleeting... "we were young, once" ourselves... in the preface to Meyers' Yellow Guide he explains why unaesthetic lines were eliminated... but the fact was there were so many new, hard lines that it seemed hardly worth the time to repeat the old, mungy ones, why put them in the guide?
secondly, the explosion of information has tamed many of these heretofore legendary lines, the beta-feasting that can be had online, emailing FA parties, etc, etc, makes many of these routes accessible, and brings down the uncertainties quite a bit... this drives up the accomplishments too, as one has the info to pick the best lines from the huge number available
thirdly, the route development of the past 60 years has exhausted most of the natural lines in areas that are accessible... it is likely that crack climbing difficulty tops out earlier than other styles... not entirely sure but it seems empirically true... there are no doubt other places on the Earth to pursue new lines, but that sort of adventure appeals to a different set of people than those we are talking about here... though amazing things get done on Baffin I. for example... way beyond the 5.11 rubric
finally, most climbers aren't putting up new routes, this is the largest difference between the 70s and today... and it is a significant one.
Thanks for the list JLP... it is interesting to contemplate it, and oddly corresponds to some thinking I've been doing lately, at least provincially...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jesus h Huh? The kid got off rout and thrashed up an off width. It scared the crap out of him but it seems like he did it, got back on route and it sounds like he finished the climb.. What is your effin problem with that? All arrounders are not allowed a moment of scary off route thrashing once in awhile even when they knock off RNFHD is a day?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I guess that one went over my head. Sure looked like you were bashing the kid for thrashing on some wide.. Like who dosen't thrash the wide ocasionaly;)
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Largo cant wait for the new book with Peter Croft to come out! I learned to climb by reading your Climbing Anchors and More Climbing Anchors books. Had a mentor (for 2 climbs, he moved--I was hooked and bought my own gear began leading trad at Jtree/Tahquitz and changed my life!!!
Now I sport climb at Cantabaco in the Philippines on overhanging Limestone (all they have here). The difference between me and the locals here is that I onsight lead everything (or at least try to onsight). The other climbers mostly have the local "guides" set the top rope so they can work a route before going for the lead. They also repeat the same routes over and over. Since I have arrived I have climbed more different routes than everyone who frequents the crag (besides the local "guides"--only a group of 7-10 people but hey who's counting).
The point is it is harder to be the first to put the route up and show everyone else that it can be done. So thanks to all the previous climbers from Chuck Wilts, Royal Robbins, to your crew, to today's climbers. All worth celebrating!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Pretty impressive indeed. It does look like they are cleaning on rappel and even doing some rap bolting :)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Here's my thread drift. I have been at this sport/game for over 35 years.
I have onsighted some 11 trad, but by no means all flavors. I've done quite a few big walls and some medium size peaks.
I have survived many thousands of pitches, some dead easy, some downright dangerous.
If you stick around long enough, you learn to ease up on the throttle.
Heck I like driving 40 mph, it's a comfortable, survivable speed.
I'm as much a climber as the big dogs making the magazine covers.
I'm still alive.
Hooray for big dogs.
Hooray for all us regular guys too.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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++1 for Survival
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Thanks fellas, I thought there might be a few around here that could relate to that.....HA!!!!
Beside that, the true hard man is a master of all disciplines, from boulders, to hard aid, to climbing 5.13 onsight, on a first ascent at 26,000 feet, in a country he's in illegally,...... with no money.
Now there's an elite group.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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You're on a roll, survival....!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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I'll go for that.
+1 Survival
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Hey Mark, you're an Oregon guy. I've got a personal favor to ask.
I want you to see the evening light in the little canyon behind the Wombat formation. Not the wall you see from the Red Wall parking area, but behind it. Just some quiet time alone back there, time to reflect, can be as good as the side of El Cap, if you let it be. And it's a helluva lot closer to you, and cheaper to get to. You don't even have to climb. You can hike up the Burma road and then the ridge to ease down in there. One day I was in there and the birds were as incredible as anywhere I've been.
Take some weed, um, I mean coffee.
By the way, Santiam highway ledges is a route you wouldn't regret doing. It's so remote from the dihedrals scene, and good climbing. It's own little universe up there.
Always have admired your stuff man.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Survival, Thanks, I sort of need that right now.
Cheers,
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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That's all you needed to say. I know the feeling, too well.
Often, the magic is in the quiet 2.5 star places, not the 5 star places.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:54am PT
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Stars are not just in the eye of the beholder but also linked to expectations, at least in my experience.
Climbed a route on Saturday that all my friends told me was a choss pile, went in with lower than low expectations and had a great time on the route, not only was I pleasantly surprised, but found the climbing to be excellent.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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Best 1 star climb in the world, on Wombat!!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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For starters, not even a third of the sport climbing population has the mindset or risk management skills to even be interested in trad. But the real damage here, and the danger is significant, is in conning the sport climber that he or she SHOULD be able to just crush trad climbing so long asthe interest is there. If they can, it will have little to do with their sport climbing background, but rather because they have a natural aptitude as an adventure athlete. And the fact is, the ratio of natural born adventure athletes has not changed that much because human nature has not changed. Sure, the modern sport climber is a regular human fly, but we can't cut the legs off these people by telling them that by all means they should be leading 5.12 cracks out at Josh by their 3rd weekend of trad climbing. I think there's a lot of truth in this statement, particularly the first sentence. Many just don't want the uncertainty, the risk, the "adventure" if you will, associated with trad climbing.
While some might say that the Kevin Jorgeson video undercuts that argument, I think not. The guy is at such the upper echelon in the category of boulderers/sport climbers that you cannot fairly lump him in that subcategory and say every other member will perform at the same level given the opportunity. He's is perhaps more like a Thomas Huber, who arrived in the Valley to free the Salathe with little crack climbing experience, saying that as long as he could get his fingers in a crack, it was good since he had "power to waste". Morever, given their track record on El Cap, including some sketchy leads on routes like the NA Wall, the Hubers were clearly into the adventure aspects. They seemed more like die in the wool trad climbers who just happened to find sport climbing first.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Maybe they are simply Climbers and not worried about the different catagorys so much...
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buster
Mountain climber
canada
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Dec 30, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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charlie told me this story.he said the guy was the best climber he ever met....quite a statement from chuck
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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To the OP .... to be able to walk up to any 5.11 ... sport , trad , face ,
wall, fingers, thin hands , overhanging OW flare , polished friction , unprotected alpine face in sub temps,etc. is very rare indeed . I like
to think of myself as a 5.11 climber but I just ain't....I respect those
who can.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 30, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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I always thought you had to be able to onsight any climb of the grade to claim it. I only made it to 5.9.
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| Messages 1 - 394 of total 394 in this topic |
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Total demographic: How many people will leave the floor / ground in climbing shoes in 2012?
Let us know!