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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
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I will be in Yosemite for a day or two in the next few weeks. The climbing partner I am going with isn't ready to attempt climbing The Nose but we have talked about rappelling down it (I have seen videos and heard of people doing it via the Nose descent anchors). I am not a stranger to multi pitch climbing or rappels but still want to see if anyone has more info or advice since it isn't a common endeavor. I have read the Tom Rohrer guide but it is geared to doing it when the descent route with bolted raps wasn't established yet. Any thoughts?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Sounds epic!
One thing is for sure
wait for it
you know what is coming
the best things take time
and Locker spacing
YOU'RE GONNA DIE!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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A day or two easily gives you enough time to go climb something, why not do that rather than rappel something?
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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I personally find rappelling Repellent!!!
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Bring some extra brake bars.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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MisterE - PERFECT. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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If u wanna go "down" el cap
.... Bring a parachute....
Any other way is.. Ummm... It just isn't
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.
Piss easy.
Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.
Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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check the books first--there may be a speed record for you to break. cosmic is right--long ropes will be the ticket. 3,200 feet is a bit much, but 500 would be reasonable, and possibly manageable. blue water, edelrid--all kinds of sponsorship possibilities. you'll encounter a party or two on the way up, possibly getting quite belligerent--be sure to arm yourselves; you can get plenty of advice about that on here.
el cap has had its share of BASE jumps, but i don't think it's had a ski descent yet. ekat?
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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MisterE - PERFECT. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
 Total epic cliffhanger… Thanks Mister E!!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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randisi, a ski jump, especially one involving parachuting, is not a ski descent.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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if death results, it wouldn't be considered a successful ski descent.
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OR
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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Remember that awful rap accident in the late 80's. A caving club I think. They were rapping elcap and sombdy did not have enough brake bars in their set up. Werner would know.
Have fun if you do it though really. Its not my thing but it would be a cool way to see the capitan if you were not able to climb it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Rap the Cap?
Great Googley-Moogley, Guglielmucci!
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OR
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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I heard there was quite a few witnesses.. Wow, I was there 91-94 but I always thought it was b4 my time.
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coloradohigh
Trad climber
rocky mountain trench
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Why rap when you can hitch a ride on Honold mobile, it departs every two hours.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jul 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Even if you are experienced and skilled as a climber and at rappelling, you may not be ready for the 3,000+ feet of exposure. After hiking 8 miles to the top with all that gear, you look over the edge, and your mind can light up in a sort of fire fight.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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Werner:
RIGHT ON!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jul 24, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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An alternative might be rapping from the Lost Arrow notch. Or better, partner up with a team and see if you can do a reverse Tyrolean traverse of the Arrow Spire and rap down from there.
Then link up with the Middle Earth descent. You could camp half way.
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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I have rappelled the Nose, at least the top part down to the bottom of the great roof. Roper and I were setting up rigging for Glen Denny's El Cap movie. We were to be paid 30 dollars apiece per day (low budget 60's movie) so we thought it best to use two days and bivy at camp 6. Lowering the pig sure beats hauling.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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Wow, are people really advocating rappelling the Nose for fun? If you are scoping the wall, maybe it makes sense.
Rappelling kills more people than actually climbing.
What is the point? Are you practicing for a big retreat?
Sorry Werner, but why would you want to encourage this? I was in the Valley when John Mokri died. Struck a nerve.
Peace
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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Well, I'd say prolly 50% of the parties setting out to climb El Cap end up rapping so why not just cut to the chase?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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Good idea. Make sure you let Tom E know of your plans, and parade on the bridge before and afterward. He'll surely report, and may appreciate the novelty.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:35am PT
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Do it Bay to Breakers style in a salmon costume and bring an air horn so folks get out of your way.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:37am PT
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Ha! Grossman outed as a big-wall booty gatherer! Fits with his fearless demeanor.
That is great history there. Thanks Werner.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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Sorry Werner, but why would you want to encourage this?
Things must be slow at YOSAR.
Curt
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:46am PT
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You guys talking about the "Speedlunker" It was Sept. 92'
We watched him go all the way.......
Curious how you saw him from the free blast when that guy whiped from the top of the Dawn wall? Were you able to see him crater next to Lay Lady ledge from over there on the free blast?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:58am PT
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I remember Mom telling me a story about a climber rappelling off the end of his rope in the early 70's on El Cap?
She always said that if he had tied a knot in the end of his rope(s), it would have never happened. I also recall how she said it shocked the climbing community of the time and that he was a well-respected climber. Crap. I wish my memory was better.
Just a random memory from the deep past. Anyone remember who that was?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
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You can rap it, why not? I wouldn't but who cares what you do.
Main thing to consider is, if you get a rope stuck... you're fukked.
Rap the Lost Arrow rap route. It's pretty strait forward, exposed and has little obstacles with which to get your rope stuck. I've descended it twice, once in pitch black.
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bullfrog
Trad climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:17am PT
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Do it Bay to Breakers style in a salmon costume and bring an air horn so folks get out of your way.
I can't argue with this.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Jul 25, 2012 - 06:54am PT
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I remember in the 70's there was this guy who put up the rap route on the nose. He would hang around camp four sometimes. Can't remember his name but I don't think he climbed anything, just was focused on rapping the nose. Odd dude.
Marty
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RP3
Big Wall climber
El Portal/Chapel Hill
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Jul 25, 2012 - 07:38am PT
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I've rappelled the Nose. It is actually quite straightforward and fun with cool ledges to picnic on on the way down. You will have to bring along a bunch of leaver biners or quick-links. Have fun (and be safe)!
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:24am PT
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That's it! Tom Rohrer
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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A Chino woman was fatally injured Tuesday when she fell during a climbing and rappelling demonstration at Suicide Rock ...
Karen Gose, 27, fell while descending a rock face during a climbing and rappelling demonstration, the Riverside County coroner reported.
Gose, identified as a "volunteer hiking guide," fell an estimated 30 to 40 feet.
in memoriam to this perhaps senseless loss, let us revive the back-up-the-damn-rappel debate.
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Mister E, the guy that rappelled off the end of his rope; sounds like Jim Madsen.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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Right Dick and Mister E. That was Madsen, in 1968, October. And there WAS a knot, but as was tested later in Camp, the knot traversed out through Jim's brake arrangement. Also part of the picture was the dude was really loaded down with more rope and hardware and rescue stuff. And ALL by himself, panicking over Pratt's safety, though Chuck and partner (Fredericks, I think) were just fine where they were, waiting out the weather.
Back to topic: the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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That makes two times in two years I've heard of rappelling accidents by folks who were 'guiding' or 'teaching'. What the?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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It's a bit more than that too, Silver. I would add I have noticed that a certain percentage of climbers kind of get scrambled in the head during rappels.
Even highly competent climbers might leave hardware up at the rappel point, set up above the knot, clip in backwards or forget which rope to pull---- on some major or minor level they are "losing it". Whether it is displaced fear or fatigue or obliviousness to the very thin margin suddenly present in the climbing situation when you commence rappelling--- each situation is different, but if you watch, many climbers just don't quite stay on the ball, at least in comparison to how they might have been while climbing upwards within "the system". I have been watching this for 50 years now.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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Somewhere on ST is a thread about silly things you've done while climbing. Perhaps the funniest is the time some poor chap threw his two ropes to rappel, but forgot to first pass them through the anchor. So yeah, Peter, the mind does funny things sometimes.
Other than that, I think rappin' El Cap would be a gas, for some.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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one post, and the last name includes mucci?
hrm Chris = Mucci = troll?
nah, we wouldn't fall for that.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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silly things you've done while climbing. Perhaps the funniest is the time some poor chap threw his two ropes to rappel, but forgot to first pass them through the anchor
A few quick stories:
one time on a belay ledge my partner went to lean back on the anchor, then caught himself just as he realized he wasn't clipped in. I had taken him off belay. Neither of us knew how we'd gotten like that.
once I blindly followed what was indicated as a rap route on a topo map, but it just ended in the middle of a blank face. Ended up doing king-swing type maneuvers to get over to a single bolt on another route, which we followed down to the ground.
story from a friend, rappelled using a nut tool as a hook for his anchor. When he got down, he just flipped the rope a couple times to get the rope and nut tool back.
another story from a friend, who was climbing in an alpine setting when a storm came in, lightening coming down everywhere. His parter was leading, but was out of sight and also couldn't hear. The rope stopped moving at one point, my friend tugged and tugged on it but no reaction. Eventually due to weather he climbed and self belayed up to where his partner was. His parter was dead, had been struck by lightening and was just hanging there. I dont want to mention names, but these things do happen in the mtns.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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I know this for a fact if I ask to see you're doubled back and if there is a knot in the end of the rope when we are rapping and you give me sh#t about it, were done climbing together.
Amazingly, people will get offended if you ask to check their harness and knot. Not me!
With all the checking I've done, I've only caught one harness screw up, but one is more than enough.
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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I rappelled the Salathe this spring with Mark Postel, a Denali guide from Terrebonne Oregon. "This is some of the scariest sh#t I've done," I screamed. I kicked in to place directionals on the head wall.
"Some of? You've done scarier" Postel looked down past me at the enormous amount of sudden exposure. "what were you in Nam?"
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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I think rapping The Nose during high season is a bad idea. Too many teams to pass, too many opportunities for entanglements too many people likely getting pissed off. Is there another route you could do with less traffic?
I take checking my harness and knots as a sign of a good partner. I would never take offense at this, really quite the opposite. I hope to be climbing for a good, long time and double checking each other is a good way to help make that happen.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jul 25, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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Up or down
As relative as snot
The questions begs
Is whether
Or not
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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Thanks for all the responses. This would be for both fun and scoping the route for the future. Getting ropes stuck is a concern I already thought about but I have learned how to avoid it pretty well. How many leaver biners would be needed? The anchors don't all have rap rings? I would bring some anyway but carrying 5-10 is much different than 20-25. That is the type of info I am looking for since most topos don’t say leaver biners are needed.
From what I can tell early August isn’t a busy time on El Cap and I wouldn’t go when it was busy. Too bad Tom E isn’t in the valley during August.
It was only a matter of time before comments on the last name (anyone know how to change the display name?)
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Jul 25, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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The route has good raps stations from the Great Roof on down. The top section is more of a mixed bag.
The first two anchors below the top (ie the tree) have chains. You will do a short rap sideways to the right and then a pretty long rappel past the bolt ladder. I think you might need to clip some of the bolts as directionals or else you will be hanging in space...
The anchors below that have one quicklink on the hanger which kinda works but will really twist up your rope. It would be good to add at least one quicklink to the three anchors "before" camp VI. (The one atop the Changing corners, the end of the awesome hands pitch and the exposed belay). There is no two bolt belay at the base of the bolt ladder.
Camp VI has good rings, so does the glowering spot and Camp V. The belay below that is kinda funky so it may need a biner and/or a quicklink. From there on it should all be equipped nicely.
So bring a minimum of 5 biners/quicklinks. 8 if you want to be more awesome. If leaving quicklinks please use the beefier 3/8" ones.
Have fun, be safe, and post up about your adventure when you come back. Also make sure to bring a few cams in case your rope does get stuck.
The rappels from Dolt on down are super easy but the belays are often hanging.
Luke
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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Story from a friend, rappelled using a nut tool as a hook for his anchor. When he got down, he just flipped the rope a couple times to get the rope and nut tool back.
Can't see this being true.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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Dont know, told by Scott Rietsma, a climber I knew in Boston about 20 years ago. The one about the person dying by lightning is true.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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I've done it a handful of times rigging for the Huber film. It's not all that bad but does have a couple of tricky sections. I think the main thing you have to look out for is knocking rocks down on people below. Some of it you can't avoid because pulling the ropes trundles rocks onto yourself and possibly others.
I don't recommend it but I really try to avoid rappelling in the first place.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
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When you rappel the nose do not go towards El Cap towers go straight down the face until you reach dolt tower.
From reading all this bullsh!t here sounds like only elcap pirate has done it?
The rest are all this way homo doom and gloom bullsh!t.
I can't believe the climbing world these days.
Or is it just this stupid supertopo bullsh!t always?
If I had to listen to all this wanking about the horrors of climbing here I'd never have done anything.
All it takes is a good brain.
Do you have one?
Or do you people always over analyze everything ad nauseum until you puke?
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damo62
Social climber
Brisbane
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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Good man Verner, you're in rare form today!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Is there a good rappell ledge to empty your shorts...?
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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Thanks cultureshock! Thats what I need to know. It sounds like next weekend it shouldn't be too busy. If the trip works out I will post the pics for sure! I think I have what I need but any other opinions or advice is welcome
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Boo Dawg . . . can you elaborate?
Werner . . . are you suggesting that someone can just hike to the top of El Cap, locate the anchors, just head on down the face and simply go straight down to Dolt Tower . . . all with no beta whatsoever? Rescue fodder.
Oh yeah, it is a little unfair to compare the topoids with El Cap Pirate . . . he is in another realm very few attain.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Give us a TR.
I know a hell of a lot of teams start up the Nose and then bail around El Cap Tower. So rapping El Cap is nothing new. I myself have rapped half of many El Cap routes!!!!
Have fun. Bring wrenches to scarf any fixed cams.
To do a righteous rap, you should do the Trip or something. That would be cool. I've down nailed but left a lot of gear doing it.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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If I had to listen to all this wanking about the horrors of climbing here I'd never have done anything.
All it takes is a good brain.
Do you have one?
Awesome.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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le_bruce: "I saw what must have been him loading up in a ranger's vehicle at the Meadow, and he looked pretty wasted and pretty bummed."
OP of THIS thread seems pretty articulate and informed. I kinda doubt he's the perp in the recent rescue/ arrest. Did anybody PM him yet?
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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Oh boy. Just read that . Awful
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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Looks like him.
But his partner is the one who fuked up going off camp 5 the wrong way.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 13, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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Here's s novel idea.....to maximize that sensational erotic feeling only provided by rappelling, find something you have to "climb" in order to get to the first rap anchor....pure ecstasy.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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wow.. you guys called it..
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Well hmm. Too much cajones. Too little experience.
Gotta say. If you're gonna screw up learning (and don't tell me you didn't) Might as well go big .. and not die.
Truly an Epic Fail.. Better than any of mine.
Honestly I'm kinda impressed that any pair this unprepared had the balls for this.
Seriously.. How the hell did they get past looking up at it from the meadows...let alone hiking up and hopping over the edge.
Ballz
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
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Chris Guglielmucci, 26 July 2012
If the trip works out I will post the pics for sure!
Amazing incident.
Then again,
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
Better a magnificent failure than a mediocre success, lol!
Wow!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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They should be prosecuted.
Sh!t, there you go again.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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Ahh hell.. the SAR guys got a payday... I suppose the lighting made for an interesting callout.
Bailing idiots out is the name of the game in SAR.
If you take extra risk in a SAR it's on your own head. You have definitely been trained not to.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
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HFCS
Knott sure about being glorious at others expense is worthy of that quote.
Props to SAR folks once again-probably some head shaking went down.
cheers
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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Oh hell give em a fine for being dummies and unprepared. But cmon endangering others? I guarantee those SAR kids are chomping at the bit to go on a callout on the CAP.. I would have been back in the day.
"Dude we got flown to the top and got paid to descend the nose and pick up a couple guys on the way..this life is too good.."
If YOSAR can't comfortably extract a couple yahoo's off the NOSE they need to be disbanded.
Which of course is not the case.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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I like ya Cragman .. seriously.. and look forward to climbing soon.
We just disagree here :)
Either that or too much beer for me tonight and i'll feel like a moron for posting tomorrow lol.
Bored tonight
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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Knott sure about being glorious at others expense is worthy of that quote.
Yeah, that quote was half tongue in cheek, but it just shows how crazy adventures and the adventurous spirit (in ALL of us) can be sometimes. Is all.
.....
Peter Haan,
Back to topic: the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly.
Wanting to be clear, could you rephrase this. Want to make sure idiom or figure of speech isn't interfering with my understanding of your compound sentence here. Either that, or I'm just tired after a hard day. But I'd like to be clear on your thought, if you're still about.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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Werner encouraged them to do this.
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pc
climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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climbski, really? You invite a long list of things that can go wrong.
Another possible outcome...regulation. Soon we may have to pass a belay (and rappel) tests...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Would you guys be happier if they had to get rescued while climbing?
Does it make any difference to YOSAR?
Just curious.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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Like I said fine em. They screwed up. But I don't see being so angry or resorting to calls of criminal negligence with severe risk to others.
But here is reality.
EVERY climb we do has REAL RISK. The biggest risk is that we (any of us) will do something we know better than to do. Find me someone who can honestly say they have never screwed up climbing and I will find you a liar or a complete noob.
I've talked to senators and panels about this. Pleading the case that it IS worthwhile to allow this freedom at the cost to taxpayer dollars.
We have a Coast guard and guess what they rescue morons every day. Saving and helping people is about the best thing you can get a chance to do in life. Usually it means helping folks that screwed up. We ALL screw up and regardless it's a damn fine thing to know that someone cares and someone will help.
I was a volunteer for years and gladly went on every callout I could. Usually had a blast and loved doing it.
The only regrets I have are the ones picking up pieces and looking for torso's and teeth. Yet even there it helps to know that you are bringing some great comfort to the families of a tragic situation.
So I'm not too mad at these guys. If I had never screwed up perhaps I would be. I have been very fortunate that my screwups never ended up in a serious injury or rescue.. But it's a fact that i was lucky.
The cost of rescues like these is merely the cost of being human.. and showing humanity.
The day that our society can no longer accept these costs is the day we might as well nuke ourselves.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Werner only encouraged these guys because he wanted the overtime.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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How much do you wanna bet they use the "Werner said it was OK" defense in court?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Cragman isn't sar your willful choice?
Being so quick to prosecute and sue has become a shame of our country.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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Unless a person is unconcious every action they take is willful. So every one of us is guilty of willfully doing stupid sh#t that could have hurt others.. Why? Because we climb..and climbing is risky... mistakes happen and someone else might have to come where we are and help.. no way around that
case closed
A rescuer who descends into unstable slopes is a freaking idiot.. he should be held more responsible than the idiot he was trying to rescue.
Why cause he DAMNWELL should know better.
THAT is the first rule of SAR
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 13, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Pretty judgemental for your background there cragman. Wwjd. :-)
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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No one can afford to hire YOSAR.
Helicopters Personel, Training on and on.
SAR personel are never paid what they are worth either.
But if ever the case could be made for the purpose of a government and the paying of taxes that is therefore required it is this.
To preserve Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for their citizens.
Rescuing climbers hits dead center on all three.
I once made that exact argument to a Senator looking to hit climbers hard on Denali.
I saw in the Senators face his respect for this argument. It made a difference.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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CRAGMAN you do most certainly make valid points as mentioned above. You were right from the get go on this thread in being the first reply to the OP
You've seen some terrible stuff due to these type of things. My thought is this. Give me liberty or give me death is no idle boast. The cost is VERY real.
I simply feel that these risks are part of the cost and risks of a free society. No intent to harm was exhibited. No malice,
Just an overbearing sense of adventure beyond ones capabilities... a failure of judgement for sure. On an Epic scale unfortunately.
But a misdemeanor.. not a Felony
A fine perhaps but not the full cost.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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Climbski, I like your points. Very well done and thanks. Fair and wise. Cragman has spent a ton of time in SAR, law enforcement and other kooky situations---he is even a builder---and so of course he tends to get unhappy when stupidity takes the day. That's all it is. Were he face to face with these rappelling noobies on the Nose, he would have been a gentleman
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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No, I think cragman would of called them morons, slapped on the handcuffs and told them they were being prosecuted for willfully endangering his life. I could be wrong though.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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have to agree with Cragman. not only did they waste YOSAR time, and money. they put other people in jeopardy.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:05am PT
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Werner encouraged them to do this.
He also assumed they had a brain. Going off route at least once on a long rappel route in unfamiliar terrain is practically expected, and its not like jugging your rappel to restart is something extraordinary for a climber/rappeler to know. The fact that they weren't prepared for either indicates they either didn't have a brain or didn't use it.
Not that most of us (I assume) aren't guilty of this as well, I know the first time I rappelled ever I didn't know how to jug back up, but it was a one pitch on low-angled terrain with experienced partners, not during an attempt to rappel the largest granite monolith in the world.
If YOSAR wasn't there they would have been dead.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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One of the drawbacks to forums is that the written word can make things a bit too strong.
I regret directly debating Cragman. Having met in person and also enjoying his great TRs I really know he's a great guy. Someone I feel privileged to have met and look forward to doing some climbing with in the future.
I am passionate about rescues being a taxpayer funded critical service. I am passionate about the freedom to climb without a whole bunch restrictions or fees on public lands. Meaning that.. yep we as a society pay for the inevitable screwups that will happen.
I suppose this is my point. Freedom has a price and while this was an avoidable incident in particular as most are.. if society allows climbing then incidents like this are the unavoidable cost. The only way to keep from paying these costs is to outlaw climbing and basically FREEDOM. I hope we are willing to bear the cost of freedom and the cost of helping people who make mistakes. I have done so and would be ashamed not to. I expect my society and my nation to be better than me.
We all screw up and we all need help sometimes. Lie to yourself if you will
Is that to much?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:12am PT
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These guys willfully endangered everyone involved....themselves, anyone on the wall, and SAR.
They should be prosecuted.
I find this whole conversation rather interesting. In 1993 my partner and I attempted the nose for the first time. My Partners first big wall, and our first attempt at El Cap, and we tried it in a day. We rapped from the end of the great roof all the way down (weather sucked). I suppose that if we needed help that you could say we were out of our element, i suppose you could say we should be prosecuted (me living in Kansas at the time). But we had everything except a bolt kit to facilitate our retreat. On second thought I should have carried more hand tied runners as I was getting close to cutting our rope to back up jingus rapp stations.
Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.
Climbers (not just these rappellers) have lost their sense of self sufficiency.
But because they were going down and not up does not justify their crucifixion.
Get rid of SAR and let nature take over if you have a problem with it.....People will learn fast or die. But I assure you the NPS will take all kinds of heat for such an approach.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:33am PT
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Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.
And, personally, I think this is a great thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't set a minimum threshold for negligence.
Every great epic starts with getting into a situation you aren't prepared for and then using your creativity and perseverance to get out of it, if you get hopelessly f*#ked you call for help and then hope for the best.
The problem here is that the situation they got into wasn't something strange or out of the ordinary, its a basic issue for those that need to long rappels in unfamiliar terrain. It should have been expected.
Someone who plans for two days on the wall and gets stranded for a week and needs rescue due to lack of water supplies isn't considered negligent, the guy who knows he's spending two days on the wall and brings no water or food and then asks for rescue on the other hand...
We shouldn't be discouraging people for asking for help when they need it (which charging for rescue would accomplish), but we should be discouraging woefully unprepared people from getting into situations that will, most likely, require rescue. As the sport becomes more popular, this will become a bigger problem and its best to implement a system now to combat this.
All of this reminds me of a report from ANAM 2000 were some dude with no mountaineering experience tries to solo Denali (complete with 2-by-4's as crevasse crossing gear) and, predictably, gets dragged off the mountain when he gets stuck at 19,000. A basic sanity check on his permit application would have prevented the massive waste of resources, inconvenience to other parties (who trianed for years to be there), and extreme danger to the rescue crew.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:34am PT
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Seems to me ascending a rope should be common knowledge for every climber. My first time doing it was in Skaha on Slow Pitch.
We tried to pull the rope to no avail so the only choice was going back up. We had no cordalette, but had slings and knew how to make prussics. He tried to ascend the rope but couldn't figure out the proper setup, and after a bit of thrashing slid back to the belay.
So the task was left to me, and I was promised a fat reward when I returned to the belay. I figured out if I clipped in short to my belay loop with the lower prussic I could keep my progress and ascend with the upper prussic/sling. I made it to the top and the quicklinks had pinched the rope. I set it up better and tested it to make sure it would pull good this time. It pulled when I got back to the belay and we got the heck outta dodge.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:10am PT
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Amazing incident.
Hardly amazing. Just stoopid/silly IMO. Totally called it. Werner made the fatal flaw of assuming people have a modicum of intelligence or some basic skills. Everyone in the universe makes mistakes. Some just do it more publicly than others.
A fine for the rescue is appropriate. Glad they are OK and hope they acquire some damn jumars and practice jugging and hauling for the next time. Nothing wrong with having a hair-brained idea as long as you have the skills to get yourself out of trouble.
Hell.. it gave SAR something to do. Otherwise they just sit around eating bon-bons and watching housewife reality shows.;)
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:34am PT
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First off Werner did not encourage this activity.
He said
Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.
Piss easy.
Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.
Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....
2ndly he asked for advice
I am not a stranger to multi pitch climbing or rappels but still want to see if anyone has more info or advice since it isn't a common endeavor.
none of us gave it to him. Pretty much everyone made fun of him. Except Cragman who came right out and predicted the outcome in the 2nd post BRAVO!!!!
Don't do it.
You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?
Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
Guess someone should have said, If I were going to do this I'd bring.....
Prod.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Aug 14, 2012 - 10:15am PT
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"Guess someone should have said, If I were going to do this I'd bring....."
a caver
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 14, 2012 - 10:23am PT
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Lay off of Werner, he did say:
All it takes is a good brain.
Do you have one?
Now we know the answer.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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Hello, Chris?
Um, we would really like to hear from you, to find out what happened. I would definitely start with the question,
"So why are you on the side of a big wall without ascenders, or the apparent knowledge and ability to use them?"
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pc
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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^ +1 PtPP.
It is fairly amazing they, a)looked up and still wanted to continue, b)got to the top, looked down and still wanted to continue.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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It amazes me that they would embark on such a mission without first making sure they could ascend their ropes first. If i were trying this it would be one thing i would make sure to practice!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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For those saying that they should be charged, I believe that Werner already stated that they had been in the other thread on this.
I seriously doubt that this guy is going to have the balls to show his face in here, especially with the (justified) negative response he got here from the start. Not really much sense in continuing to call the guy out, IMO. If he did show back up, the only thing that is going to happen is 80 pages of people telling him what a dumbass he is.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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I wrote Chris on Facebook and asked him to respond here. He seems like a decent sort. It's a tough crowd here at McTopo, but in fairness it seems like the right thing for him to do, after soliciting our advice here and all. He also promised us a trip report.
I told him we wouldn't beat him up ....
... too much.
It takes balls to come on here and admit your mistakes, but plenty have done it, and generally they are respected for 'fessing up, even if what they did wasn't the smartest thing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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If it's a-okay to call someone a moron (cragman), dumbass (many a poster) or as#@&%e (cragman) concerning their actions, then why is it NOT a-okay to call someone a moron, dumbass or as#@&%e concerning their beliefs?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
What a biased righteous bunch (of hypocrites, etc.) we have here.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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The difference is similar to criticizing Rodney King because he's black.
Instead of just bagging on him for being a rotten driver.
It's a free country. You can be a bigot, if you want.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly
This still seems confusing to me, I don't get it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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So this thread turned into the inevitable pissing match too?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Reilly, you do or you don't think this story raises all kinds of issues worthy of discussion in the hope of sorting a few out? Personalizing it just makes it real, more interesting and reminds us these are not just theoretical ideas or concerns, they're real world, all of them, as you know.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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This still seems confusing to me, I don't get it.
I think he's trying to say that its silly to consider rappelling anything but a deadly activity that is best avoided.
He's basically saying its silly to rappel for fun.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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The difference is similar to criticizing Rodney King because he's black
Interesting. I wasn't aware Mr. King chose to be black. Amazing the things you learn on the Taco.
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generationfourth
Trad climber
Arizona
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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These guys would've tried to do it anyway regardless of what any of us said. Pointing fingers and trying to burn werner at the stake is pointless.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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How was the attempt to rap off El Cap any worse than the much more common woefully unprepared attempts to climb the route? People that can't lead 5.7 and have never done a wall?? The leap-frogging of cams that leads to a few broken ankles and helicopter pluck-offs every season?
I'm sure SAR folks would rather be rescuing someone off El Cap probably more than just about anything else they do. When I was a hotshot and smokejumper I always was stoked for a raging fire, regardless of whether it was started by an idiot or lightening. People don't sign up for that sort of work to sit around hoping nothing happens.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Maybe I'll lose, but I just want to yell "you can't handle the truth" in the Yosemite court.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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Werner,
The last time I remember anyone being charged for an El Cap rescue was I believe back in the 80's when an Austrian team was plucked off The Shield headwall in storm, because they lacked the necessary storm protection and were using down for insulation.
Has anyone else been "billed" since then for their rescue?
Is that likely to happen in this instance?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Cragman - I respect your knowledge and experience in SAR, but I have to disagree with your legal analysis. Willfulness is a mental state, ones intent to cause harm. It is not the willful act of rapping El Cap, it is the intent to place someone else in danger. Hell, under your analysis a willful walk up the Mist Trail could be grounds for charges.
Exhibit A for the defense in this case would be this thread. Viewed in its entirety, the conversation could be interpreted as goading the OP into undertaking the "adventure". I enjoy Werners blunt commentary, but I suspect he will temper his future comments. Supertopo bears some responsibility.
Gross negligence could rise to willfulness, but not in this case.
I am amazed that someone could drop off the top of El Cap without a serious second thought about what they were getting into. I want a trip report with an equipment list, surely SAR got an inventory of their "rack"?
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Aug 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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I got billed for being airlifted by YOSAR. I was injured climbing the last pitch and was able to get to the summit on my own. Spent the night on top and then next morning YOSAR airlifted me from the summit of El Cap to Crane Flats, and then transferred to a care flight that took me to Merced.
I got bills from both YOSAR and the hospital in Merced.
this was two years ago.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Why couldn't they have cut some rope off the end of their rope to make prusiks? Were they rapping with 50m ropes as well? As that would be criminal.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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I carry prussiks even in the Gunks... lol
I can't imagine staring down 3000+ feet of unknown stone with no ascenders. Hilarious.
Although I hardly think it's "criminal".
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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70m rope - quantity 2
ATC - 1
Biners - 20
Camera - 1
Cell phone - 1
Power bars - 6
Water - 2 quarts
1 copy of the Supertopo Noobs Guide to Rappelling El Capitan
YOSAR phone number
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Just saw this thread. Ho man what an interesting turn of events.
This all could have been avoided if the guy on top of the problem rappel followed the sage advice from the movie Vertical Limit. "you did the right thing to cut the rope, any good climber would have".
I agree I think it's best the OP doesn't comment here much until the court case is finished. But then I REALLY hope he comes and gives the Trip Report.
As mentioned folks who post and admit mistakes get points for being able to do it. Of course he'll be flamed but that didn't stop him before did it?
It sounds like no one got hurt. Not too big a deal, chalk this one up as a learning experience. I'm sure it will be a great, once in a lifetime, story once a little time has passed and he can see the humor in it. Rappeling the nose with little experience and no way to get back up the rope? That's classic!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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+
ATC - 2 (in case of a fumble)
Ascenders and aiders - 2 ea.
Rain/wind shell.
Brain bucket.
PAS.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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Well as a conciliation prize the stuck rappeler got to go down the whole way courtesy of the yosar 3000' lowering line.
Not in the best style,granted, but, mission accomplished.
So where's the TR?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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This is interesting. A bunch of people who regularly participate in an "extreme" sport, some of whom have either self rescued themselves because they made mistakes and some who might have even been rescued by others, are all condemning some guys who participated in an "extreme" sport where they needed a rescue because of their mistakes.
It seems perfectly reasonable to have a law that says that a person must pay for their negligence.
But is climbing itself negligent? What about big wall climbing? People are rescued off the nose quite often. Statistically, climbing the nose may be negligent just because it's climbing the nose and if people who are qualified do it, they will still need a rescue some percentage of the time. Or does needing a rescue immediately place one in the category of unqualified?
One guy here draws the line at "moron" which is the most juvenile thing a person can do. Name calling is so amazingly counter-productive that it makes him look like, I hate to say it, a moron.
Someone else just shrugs it off as the price of freedom. Let people try things if they want no matter the cost.
The question that should be discussed is where the line should be drawn. Not this one situation but how the line that was crossed can be set in stone so that anyone who wants to go rap El Cap can read the law regarding negligence and measure themselves against it.
This seems impossible. People will make mistakes. We will read about it and call them names. Nothing will change. At least they had the same spirit of adventure that is respected in the climbing community even if they lacked everything else needed to complete their task successfully.
Dave
P.S. SAR did not HAVE to go get them. If the SAR people all quit and no one else took the job and the rangers adopted a policy of letting people die, they would have died. People made the choice now and a long time ago to go rescue them at their own risk. It was their choice to join up. If you can't handle the idea of rescuing someone who made a terrible mistake because you think that they are a moron, please quit. No one wants a rescuer who hates the person they are rescuing any more than they want a doctor that doesn't like patients.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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rappelling is not climbing. It is an inherently dangerous activity...
Climbing is also an inherently dangerous activity.
Cavers rap all of the time. It is the essence of their sport. To them, climbing in way dangerous and rappelling is probably predictable and controllable.
And car racers probably think that cavers and climbers are both nuts.
We are all nuts that take risks that others think are pointless and stupid. There is no argument in saying that rappelling is someone more dangerous. Lots of things are more dangerous and the level of danger that you perceive is set by your viewpoint, not by the actual real danger involved.
Dave
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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I think the problem most people are having isn't the act of rappelling itself or the rescue but their apparent lack of respect for the rock and their apparent lack of preparedness.
What they did was no different then the three that jumped the railing at the top of the vernal last year and got swept away. Except those three were less lucky. Both were moronic acts when considering their apparent lack of consideration of risk and preparedness to handle a common, predictable situation.
As you pointed out, climbing and rappelling has countless inherent dangers that will get even the most experienced climber stuck or killed. We made a decision long ago to help rescue those who risk their lives climbing when these dangers rear their head. However, there is little room for adding MORE danger by being negligent or stupid.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Not me Riley, I have NEVER done ANYTHING stupid. Ever. Nope not even once. Lol
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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It's just that most folks first first rappel epic is two pitches up a 5.9 ...LOL
Indeed, and didn't require a YOSAR call out.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 14, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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1) maybe these guys should have climbed the Nose first to familiarize themselves with the rap stations.
2) why didn't they rap the NWRR on Half Dome?
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 14, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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When I first started climbing, my buddy and I would drive up to the Robbin's shop in Fresno for gear and advice. We had no idea what we were doing of course and a couple guys working at the shop seemed to sneer at us a little, so we avoided them. Doug Weins was always incredibly patient with us and would give us bits of advice and suggestions for us to experiment with. We kept returning for his advice and suggestions and would pretty much do our best to follow his instructions. Now Doug was a frequent partner of Rowell and Gillette and did a lot of bad ass adventures, but we knew nothing of that till we got to watch various slide shows. We trusted his advice because he did not overreact or demean us. He listened to our screwball ideas and helped us learn better.
In 1984, I read a story by Jim Cassidy about rafting the Kings River from Yucca Point to Garnet Dike, at that time an impressive feat. The Kings was my home river but I knew nothing about that section, except that I wanted to do it. I had just gotten off the Grand Canyon and so was feeling pretty solid. I call Jim up at his shop and ask for advice. He could have been insulted that the first time we talk I brazenly suggest I will kayak the most difficult whitewater he has ever done. But, being Jim, he just asks me what I have already paddled that might be comparable. What is the hardest stuff I have done. I tell him and he thinks about it for a few moments. "Well," he says, "You should try paddling Cherry Creek or the Forks of the Kern first. See how that goes. If they seem easy then you are ready for the upper Kings." He tells me "No, don't do it," but gives me good suggestions of what I should do that might lead towards my goal. So I had Jim to thank a couple weeks later when I paddled Cherry Creek and got spanked pretty good. Class 5 was whole new world that I was clueless about. But with that first advice, I started learning.
When people ask me for advice, I try to emulate Doug and Jim.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
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The guys r hosers.
That being said, I have some tales of risk and luck that I'll save for impressing the chicks.
Guys shouldn't be charged for the rescue. Tax dollars at work (I pay plenty). Better use of funds than the super train to nowhere.
Glad u survived, now take an oath to NOT reproduce.... EVER! ;)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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I liken Rappelling to presidential politics...a choice between the lesser of two evils.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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First he should have tried this first.
People were correct by saying or suggested/advised try something less or more practical first before choosing the real nose [El Cap] and again practice, practice and additional understanding of what is involved in rapping [not the singing]. Werner is correct “All it takes is a good brain. Do you have one?”
These guys obvious did not. No jugs? Well that is a good clue these guys did not have brains. Correct rope lengths and not all fixed rappel anchors are the same length. On the nose, one has to know which ones to be on the correct route after being next to the Great Roof then proceeding through the grey bands finally ending up at Dolt Tower; from there it is straight and a breeze.
People say or are upset that they were or called morons. I would take morons and use the word idiots. Just like going into a whorehouse: if you never have been in one, then don’t go in.
A fine, yes but not a spank on the hand; consider what if for some reason and not human err either with the chopper or the rescue team and nature wind/heat, falling rock, decides to change the course of this event to harming or killing crew members and damaging the aircraft how much would that cost be. What about the cost to the killed crew members and suffering to their wives and family. Aircraft can be replaced no biggie: what $750k?
Happens all the time with or on an extraction team getting your main target out of the situation, it could be a business man or somebody of interest that has been snatched. [not the kind in the whorehouse] If you have a good team with an addition distraction team using plan [A] plan and a few other back up systems in place by using the brain/experience all team members come back [then again unforeseen things could change that to disaster as well] but if you lack the skills or are disorganized no one comes back. Hundreds of them and happens every day just never reported for good reasons.
Take the example of the pirating off the Gulf and Southeast Asia. Some companies pay the ransom better off than creating more chaos that is why all our goods imported are higher.
Now if the guys that went down had an insurance plan with a climbing clause saying it will pay for said rescue then hey! let the party begin.
Edit: for some reason that last part went to bold, I did not make it bbbbb bold. ????
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Ironically, this thread is making me want to rap the nose!
But I also remember the last time I was at the top of the Nose and remembered how much I wouldn't have relished even rapping that last pitch.
Plus I'm not the type that enjoys carrying gear up there.
Just funny that It sounds fun now
Peace
Karl
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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"Exhibit A for the defense in this case would be this thread. Viewed in its entirety, the conversation could be interpreted as goading the OP into undertaking the "adventure". I enjoy Werners blunt commentary, but I suspect he will temper his future comments. Supertopo bears some responsibility."
Did I read that correctly ??????????
"Supertopo bears some responsibility."
"Yes your honor, I checked on the Taco and they said go for it so we did"
CMac better put up a disclaimer "stuff on the internet might not be true".
That should cover it.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Rwedgee.
Maybe you should reread the thread. I did this morning and didn't find one example of someone suggesting that Chris rap the nose. 2 people gave advice on the anchors but most said don'tdo it.
Prod.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Surfacially, it appears as though they entered this venture ill-prepared and under-trained, based on our assumptions, which may or may not be true.
Chris - we really need to hear from you, buddy...
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
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I am good to my word and will give details. I Haven't been ignoring anyone I just haven't been near a computer. I will be able to write a lot more this coming weekend. The one thing I will clear up now though is that the rumor stating we didn't have ascenders is false. I'll write a lot more this weekend
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Thanks, Chris.
Now everyone leave him alone for a while til he responds, eh?
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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Epic clusters with happy endings are always fun to read, popcorn ready!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 14, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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Now everyone leave him alone for a while til he responds, eh?
You've been the main, stand-out prodding him, hahaha.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 14, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
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Did I read that correctly ??????????
"Supertopo bears some responsibility."
maybe not the best choice of words, I admit. I did not mean CMac or the website was responsible, rather I was referring to the collective input of the participants in the discussion.
Having re-read the thread I will agree there were red flags for the OP, Cragman was the first, with an unequivocal "HELL NO" but there were also posts that could be construed as tacit approval, there was also posts dismissing the OP as a troll.
In hindsight the OP should have taken advantage of the experience of any one of a number of experienced individuals on SP who would have been generous with their advice. Maybe this thread should be posted up as a TR so that another "sport rappeller" does not make the same mistake.
As for the lack of Jumars, did that really matter? If he had them he still would have been stuck on the Nose needing a rescue, right?
Ultimately the individual is responsible for their own success or failure.
edit: Just saw the OP's recent post, kudos to him for posting up.
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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This may have been said before but SAR loves this kind of event. Good practice and an easy rescue. All the BS about SAR being put out is just BS. They sign up for the thrill of doing just this type of thing. Thats why there are kids lined up to join SAR in the valley. They were all smiles and giddy with excitement when this call came in. Bad form by the silly rappers though. The $$$ to us taxpayers sucks. Fines are in order.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
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Hey Chris,
looking forward to hear you story.
Glad that you get such adventure without harm.
You created unintentionally a very interesting ST tread
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 14, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
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Still waiting to hear the trip report which could clear a lot of things up, such as the reason(s) for bailing. Obviously if someone was injured its different than if they're just gripped with fear and don't want to wait half a day for the next Nose party to go by. If there was some technical error, like they got stuck in the middle of nowhere with no way out, I guess I'd have to hear the story. Although if the rapellers are in some kind of legal trouble they may not want to tell the story just yet.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
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Chris:
Do not know if you “would not ever do that again” but just wish I had the correct information then maybe could have pulled it off. No biggie.
Correction info, gear, water……. but where to go [I am assuming] and getting the correct anchors is all you needed. So a future try is in order. Your fine might say do not attempt or do this ever again, if it does just go back to the judge and say I would like to make some amendments to this order.
Rohrer will be in the park tomorrow up in Crane Flat site #223 for seven days and plans to be in the valley, the next week starting the 22nd he will be in the valley for a week in upper pines Site #? but will give to you tomorrow, here you will get first hand instructions and where to go, so don’t feel that bad. This way you will have the correct info or Hey! I and my partner have a new perspective on the situation.
That’s all you need plus making sure not run into teams coming up, weather conditions, plenty of water…………………………..
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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Considering the very wide range of experience and knowledge on this forum; it makes sense for the more experienced people to respectfully accept their responsibilities as mentors
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pc
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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Respectfully Tom...
I think he was strongly advised to NOT do it for a number of very good reasons. He chose to ignore that advice and plough ahead anyway.
And I'd say the Taco's probably a very good place to find mentors for later individual guidance in person or by email but not a great place to expect crisp clear answers/advice to general questions. Too many trolls asking and answering. You can probably figure out the diamonds in the rough if you've been here for a while but I think this was his first post?...
$.02 and glad he survived.
pc
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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pc has a good point.
Not only was he brand new to the forum, I have seen many cases over the years of new posters asking for advice, and then choosing to ignore all of it and do as they wish anyways.
Not saying Chris is one of those, but I'd be willing to bet he didn't realize the amount of experience behind the avatars.
Looking forward to the TR and the responses that follow. Dude has balls, that's for sure. Let's see how the brain equipment works.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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Atta boy, Chris. No shame - we all each and every one of us have f'd up in our lives, have relied on help from others, and have made boneheaded plays that we couldn't have gotten out of without help. Yeah there are varying degrees of this, but humility is the lesson from all of it. Well, maybe some shame has a place. So shame, then humility.
Glad you'll be writing it up.
PS - I think I saw you (if you were the one who was lowered rather than lifted; if not, your pard) loading up into a ranger's car in front of EC meadow. I asked the ranger about the rescue and if everyone was ok. He kind of motioned his eyebrows towards you and said, "Yup, everybody's ok." You looked utterly stomped, but had your chin up. Whoever said that you'll laugh about this one day is spot on.
Damnit I'm getting the chuckles now... thinking of both your debacle (stranded in space over the Great Roof?! Unable to ascend your ropes?!) and some of my own from the past... maybe we'll share a campfire some time and swap stories of idiocy and folly.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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To insert a somber note into this discussion, some of the best people lose their lives by making equally simple mistakes. When Frank Sacherer and Joe Weis died rapelling the Grandes Jorasses, Frank was killed instantly in a fall (obviously not tied into the anchor) and the only two prusiks they brought on the climb were in his back pack. Joe Weis then tried to rappel down alone, realized he was off route and about to go off the ropes onto the north face, and needed to re-ascend. Lacking prussiks, he could go neither up nor down on the icy rope and hung there until he died. The major difference? The weather. The helicoptors could not fly for five days in Chamonix.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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I've looked at those topos showing the bail-out rap anchors and contemplated the same thing. But I know better and I've shown restraint. Rapping 3,000 ft because you don't have the pull-up power to climb it, just seems, unright.
However, I think there is a market here for guided rappels. Possible decent cash income for those who know the route and have the experience. Werner made it sound easy. It probably is for him since I'm sure he's been all over that thing.
So, how about a couple of dirtbags to mule the gear up there for $125 each and someone skilled and experienced to lead the descent for say, $300. Total out of pocket, $550 to rap the nose. I'll bet you could do it full time for that price.
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:49am PT
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Damnit I'm getting the chuckles now... thinking of both your debacle (stranded in space over the Great Roof?! Unable to ascend your ropes?!) and some of my own from the past... maybe we'll share a campfire some time and swap stories of idiocy and folly.
So true Bruce. Can you imagine being in a pinch like that! I hate to admit it but one of my biggest fears on Elcap was the humiliation of having to be rescued by poeple I knew at YOSAR. Never happened thank god.
Jan makes a good point too. Some of the best died making silly mistakes. Every person here has done something silly and they are full of sh-t otherwise.
These guys have taken it to a whole new level though.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:35am PT
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"These guys have taken it to a whole new level though."
:-)
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 15, 2012 - 09:29am PT
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It will be interesting to compare the TR from the OP to all the hearsay that has been fueling the last 100 posts.
Edit to add:
Karl: Ironically, this thread is making me want to rap the nose!
Actually.. me too Karl. I don't have 5 days to drag myself up piss-soaked ledges. I'll get the low-down from Grossman on the best booty-collecting rap-route and I'm totally in. ;)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 15, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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Come on Dean, you know your not done with this, its like watching NASCAR, once that car starts spinning there is no way you are looking away.
I did not think the comment was an attack. I think the comment was off base because the issue is not morals and sinning, unless you think ignoring advice on ST is a sin, and that would make ST members GOD!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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OT Marmot sez "C'mon guys. Let's not destroy another good thread attacking each other...let it go and let's go eat some flowers...it will be ok..."
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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It's an actual route.... The rohrer rap route... Why is it so irresponsible? Big effing deal, they screwed up somehow. We don't even know what happened and it's all "oh whatta bunch a morons, I'd never do that!"
Edit: fair enough. But just so it's clear, I was ragging on all Christians
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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Don't bag on Dean for his faith, that's wack.
He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.
I'm a heathen like many of you, but god bashing is lame.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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...god bashing is lame.
Nope.
Too general a statement. Like "Don't judge."
God bashing in poor style is lame. Big difference.
......
He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.
If so, then he should say so, that he is speaking from that one narrow perspective. He doesn't.
The fact is, he tends to see things - many things - in black n white... which poorly reflects adventuring in the mountains, the whole of it; or the wide variation in human interests or values that we humans bring to this activity.
Climbing activities are inherently trouble. We all draw our lines differently. Most of us respect this.
Bottom line: there is no absolute morality across all living things. That's the viewpoint of many. Not in life. Certainly not in climbing or mountaineering or whatever the risky outdoors venture. Where to draw the line - before the crux of the biscuit or after? that is the question.
"Oh yeah, says who?"
.....
Apart from the rappellers themselves of course, let's remember what started the main thread brouhaha ...
"They should be prosecuted..."
"Oh yeah, says who?"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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I have a hard time believing the SAR guys weren't totally delighted to do this rescue.
The Climber SAR guys don't get a penny unless they are working a rescue and this one would be super cush with no grueling carry-out.
And the Rangers, who do get paid otherwise, have to feel good about doing something exciting and beneficial to somebody rather than more mundane duties.
I might be an expenditure of money I admit but hey, they go up on El Cap to train now and then so what's the diff?
For the guys involved. Wonder what made him continue past the lip of the great roof when he could see the end of his rope right there?
PEace
karl
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Rohrer's rap routes from almost any place on the Nose have sure helped people over the years. It isn't that noticeable. I'm living proof that you can go from way up an overhanging route to the ground in only a few hours, sometimes not even coming down your own route. You just see a convenient line of anchors and off you go.
Then the sun comes out and you feel like a dufus.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Yes Rohrer's Nose rap route in particular has saved countless rescues from happening.
The retreat factor is overwhelming over all these years.
There was a guy soloing the Nose years ago late in the season and got hit by a massive rain and snow storm as he was topping out.
He encountered waist deep snow at the top.
He decided to rappel the route (Nose) back to the ground.
A rescue operation was avoided ......
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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If it is true that they were rescued at the anchor by the Great Roof or in the area now makes sense that they could not make or retrieve their second rope.
Their ropes or the one being pulled down got hung up, Rohrer corrected this problem by placing an anchor 25m above the roof below camp 5 on route so this would not happen, they should have rapped to this anchor or the correct one.
Taking a guess will have to wait till chris gives his version.
Climbing back up on stuck rope is spooky since that rope says OK! I give in I will come out of the spot now when the climber is 3/4 up and now takes a screamer. If a back up system is not in place and by bringing couple of cams, pins whatever might have but I say might have corrected the problem.
Which brings up a subject for discussion should they be marked as in placing a small colored tag or with additional stealth reflection as when using a light pointing down during the night will reflect back for observation.
Day time with the sun hitting it, wind blowing, people might not like the sparkling effect but this can be corrected by using creative thinking on how to approach this problem.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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Cragman
Calling these guys "a-holes" here, right off the bate nullifies & voids everything you stand for with your arguments in your so called "sar professionalism" relating to this incident.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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For the record, I know Chris rather well actually. Took him up the EB on Whitney a couple years back when he was 16
so we can blame is lack of judgment on his age
Like I posted, Chris is a good solid respectable young man with some multi-pitch Grade III/IV climbing background experience etc.
what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?
did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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lostinshanghai,
I think you misunderstood the cause of the stuck rappeller.
It was not a stuck rappel rope.
Instead, one person rapped off the left side of Camp 5 instead of the right side.
So he could not reach the next anchor down.
Then, since he did not know how to reascend the rope, he was stuck.
Strangely they had a third rope to handle a stuck rope, and a rack to lead pitches, but no ascenders or prusik knowledge to handle this basic problem.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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Clint
Ok! stand corrected. that area is where one can make a mistake that is why Tom made some changes. He plans to be in the valley tommorrow. He is setting up camp at Crane Flat today. I am sure you guys will get together.
Breakfast in the morning at the same place.
And true about your last thoughts.
Somehow rumors of no jugs, yes there were jugs so looked to me a lot of misinformation but finally coming out. Thanks
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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...did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?
Yup! And right back at ya... "what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?"
Just to set the record straight, rapping is NOT the most dangerous part of climbing. Look at any report of climbing injuries and fatalities. It is perhaps one of the most dangerous parts, but it ain't in first place, or even all that close.
From what I've seen in published reports, most dangerous part is just what you'd expect: leader falls, pro either pulls or isn't close enough to prevent injury/death.
So we should at least give credit to these young men for correctly identifying the most dangerous part of climbing (leading) and removing that from the equation. Still their execution was flawed.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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There wasn't a lot good advice given here when he came for advice. Things like "don't do it!", "rappeling is lame", or "climb instead", didn't give the OP reasons why he shouldn't do it. It just comes off as bitching.
If folks said things like: a lot of the rappel stations are not where your expect them to be, the rappel line is not the climbing line, you need to know how to free a stuck rope, if you can't unstick a stuck rope you need to know how to ascend a rope that may give way at anytime, you should be aware of the loose blocks on the route that can kill you or others, you should practice rappeling some other less commiting multipitch climbs first. Have you ever climbed Royal Arches? If not it's fun climbing plus you'll be able to practice rappeling many pitches and rappeling route finding.
It sounds like the OP IS being held accountable by the law. Did anyone who posted here but didn't give any constructive advice why he shouldn't do it, or how he should be prepared to do it safely feel accountable? I didn't think so.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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My comments on this thread were from two perspectives...both SAR and from that of a mentor.
I'm sure Chris is a very nice young man...he came hear for advice...props for that....then against most of the advice given him, and with encouragement from some, he went and did this.
To me there is nothing Mentorish in this statement.
Don't do it.
You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?
Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
And please show me where anyone encouraged this lad to do this? It just didn't happen. He got advice about anchors from 2 or 3 poeple who had done it.
Mentor my ass. Soap box preacher is more like it.
Prod.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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Soap box preacher or not...he's managed, with one post, to generate at least a dozen responses that are all going to lead to the same thing: a decent thread getting totally off topic and getting ruined while you all snipe at each other. Again.
1. Definition of insanity: Doing the same sh#t over and over while expecting different results.
2. Fighting with a troll is like wrestling with a pig in the mud - after a while you should realize that the pig is enjoying it.
So, again - can we please, for once, agree to drop all of this arguing bullshit and stick to the topic? Take the religious stuff back to threads that are there for that purpose.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Chris
Correction info, gear, water……. but where to go [I am assuming] and getting the correct anchors is all you needed. So a future try is in order.
You first wrote: “I have read the Tom Rohrer guide but it is geared to doing it when the descent route with bolted raps wasn't established yet. Just had the wrong information “bolted raps were already established’ he updates them now and then with stainless steel. Just needs to work on replacing 2 and plans to make so not to get in the way of teams climbing or going up.
Tom will be in in Crane Flat, today, site #223 for seven days [8/15- 8/22]and plans to be in the valley during that time, the next week starting the 23rd, he will be in the valley for a week in upper pines: Site #24, This way you will have the correct information.
For a 76 year old and still going. He would glad to teach some tricks and techniques. If you cannot find him leave a note at one of the sites and somehow you and your partner can connect. I think there is photos on some threads what he looks like.
Lessons learned, you got that far [Roof], great that is the hardest.
Timing is critical as well or when to start down: Wind factor gets in the equation.
Hope you get to try again: fun rap plus an overnighter on Dolt is nice, Full Moon can be done as well providing taking head lamps and knowing the anchors. But start off with a couple of other smaller routes first until you get better experienced and then go for it.
I made the mistake assuming that your rope was hung up till Clint corrected me. So it happens to all of us.
Edit: Tom will be in the valley till or ending the 28th of Sept. so if your schedule does not work for these first two weeks plenty of time to get in touch.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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Cool post lost.I got to meet Tom at the Facelift, we had a talk and he seemed like a pretty cool dude.
Chris isn't the only one out there who thought of doing this for sure - I wanted to rap the Nose to Dolt at one time, but managed to convince myself that I shouldn't be up there unless I earned it. So far, that hasn't happened. But the info we do have sounds like a simple mistake that many could have made, going off route a bit. Just had harder implications then most. I'm sure the TR will probably bring more info to light.
I was going to send you a message regarding your last statement here Cragman, but you seem to have your email disabled. Makes it hard to have a side conversation.
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John M
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
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He already posted that they had ascenders.. Something happened. He hasn't said what yet. He said that he would tell us this weekend.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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perhaps i am too old school....but why wouldnt you just carry prusiks and not ascenders. prusiks can work on two rope strands, ascenders wont.
am i missing something here?
regardless, this conversation is hilarious. if cragman had known Chris prior to the incident and Chief hadnt, i could see thier perspctives shifted 180....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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regardless, this conversation is hilarious. if cragman had known Chris prior to the incident and Chief hadnt, i could see thier perspctives shifted 180....
Chief,
i am not here to defend your buddy Dean. there is much to be admired from each of you. the attacks towards one another on this thread is not admirable.
but yes your piss is being carried by the wind, hopefully it wont shift.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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i understand what you are saying cragman.....and i have to ask myself....if i had to ask for beta on supertopo.....that might just be my first warning that i had a issue...i mean , how the hell does one determine they are getting good advice or bad advice?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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my point exactly Q.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Cragman you failed miserably ....
Calling these guys "a-holes" here, right off the bat nullifies & voids everything you stand for with your arguments in your so called "sar professionalism" relating to this incident.
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covelocos
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Now back to the regularly scheduled entertainment.... Right?!?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:16am PT
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Bad form of an example IMO. Definitely not good form/example of postive mentorship.
i dont disagree, but you are the pot calling the kettle black. there have been numerous times that you have been a "assertive" to climbers on websites from bolting to god knows what.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:31am PT
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well,
hard to argue with a man who agrees to being an as#@&%e.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:35am PT
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not trying to rile you up.
calling it how i see it although it dont matter much. cheers.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:45am PT
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lol....you do like having the last say. go have a beer.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:19am PT
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Cragman-
I thought Werner's comments towards you were spot on. I don't see where having an attitude that people are aholes or such if you are in SAR would be beneficial to anyone. You have to rise above and perorm your duties not be judge and jury. THese are just MY opinions and not meant to be an attack.
No reason to backlash at Werner. Just reflect what he said for awhile.
take care
dave
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:00am PT
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Cragman-
Thanks for the reply and all your work helping people in the past. I have lots of respect for what SAR people do. I have been on the other side, having to be rescued once, and the people who came to my aid were very compassionate and professional.
sorry for the thread drift.
take care
dave
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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I would have advised anyone with his level of experience to CLIMB the Nose, not rappel it.
And then when they had to bail? Then what? Now they're rapping a wall with a 100lb of crap, bags/ledges.
It's baffling that your knee jerk response was acting like being plucked from a sunny frontcountry chunk of granite, mid summer is in the same realm of risk as someone in avy-prone backcountry terrain, in freezing conditions without a known location.
If these guys are fined/prosecuted, then so should every Mist Trail carryout for some grandma touron who hiked up in flip flops and turned an ankle. That's probably over half of your valley "rescues" right there, escorting some fatbody with a gimpy ankle or empty belly back down a trail.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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Sounds like 100 lbs. of well thought out, life-sustaining provisions to me.
And if you think a rescue off of El Cap is not without risk....well....
Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said, "without risk". Strawman much? And of course rapping with a heavy ass bag to deal with carries no risk..it's "life sustaining provisions" after all. It surely doesn't complicate things or add risk. But then we all know n00bs never bail from walls anyway, so no worries.
You get all hot and bothered that they took some unnecessary risk and your solution, "climb it instead", had a significant chance to put them in an even riskier situation.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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^^^^
What's up there Billy Bob Thorton?
"Mmmm hmm, I sure do love me some mustard biscuits, mmmm hmm"
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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You are a Wanker Cragman.
There's no doubt about it.
Your incessant spinning of this bullsh!t any way you can to make your "opinion" (that's all it really is), hold above all ......
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TFPU
Sport climber
Idaho
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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Cmon Cragman lighten up on these kids. Whithout incidences like this you'd never be able to pontificate how bad ass you are and all compasionate like
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bbbeans
Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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"Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded"
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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Chris,
Glad you guys had some gusto to go after a big mission. Also glad things went safely on the rescue. Way to go YOSAR. Thumbs up. Hoping for a full write up so we can all learn something here.
Scott
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Group hug?
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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This thread makes me want to cry!!! Or laugh!!!! SAD!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Despite the occasional strong language or perspective...
There's never been a doubt in my mind that Cragman is a stand-up guy who cares, has a strong work ethic and high standards and principles about life at large and in general.
Sometimes it's easy to forget many of us post because we WANT to debate, because we WANT to stir up the dust to hash out some current affairs issue in or out of climbing. But that's all it is. It's hardly the rest of our lives. Out in the field, all of us (well, most of us, lol) would get along terrifically, I think.
Without a doubt, as I've expressed before, were ever I to bust ribs or hip ouch! deep in the Sierra (who knows where, perhaps an outlandish, foolish free solo AT MY AGE on Third Pillar, maybe? :) ) hearing that Cragman was in on the rescue would be reassuring news.
A good man who loves his family, country, sport. And fairness in things. In the end that's what counts.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 17, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Opinions are like asssholes. Everybody's got one.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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Well played Dean.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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I am working on the writeup. I didn't realize how long it would be. I will try for tonight but if that doesn't work expect to see it tomorrow night...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 19, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Kudo's and balls in more way than one. Hope we are kinder to you than the big stone was lol.
Hell posting this TR might be rougher than what you went through ..
Mebbe not... even if it was a screw up most folks here respect balls and the willingness to take responsibility.
Looking forward to it! I think :)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Hey Chief, Great picture. I'll bet you have one of these shirts...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:31am PT
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This is f*#king priceless...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 20, 2012 - 01:43am PT
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got one just like it and several others with the same basic message. Kick Ass.
I'd also be willing to bet you weren't much of an ass kisser or you'd probably have made Master Chief. Hahaha.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:22am PT
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LOL. Don't you have to be smudge free for 12 years to get GOLD?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:30am PT
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That is classic Chief. Glad you finally got the GOLD.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:45am PT
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What a fukking testostrone-fest.
Yawn.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 02:06am PT
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I am almost done with the writeup. Just got pics to add to it...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Yeah Chris
You came just in the nick of time! These guys were starting to feed on each other.
Post em up and wear your best asbestos
Thanks
Karl
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:32am PT
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I am almost done with the writeup. Take your time. I won't be reading it.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 21, 2012 - 03:35am PT
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Right on riley. Took the words right out of my mouth. Don't mind biotch he's a little crusty at first. He'll warm up to ya eventually... We are all humans who are prone to error after all.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 04:06am PT
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Here is the writeup.
It is a short version of just our time on the wall. I have a long version I wrote for friends and family who don’t live close by and wanted all the details after finding out what happened. It is 7 pages of text if you took the pictures out so unless you have a lot of time to kill read the short version posted here. The long version is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/160erjnj2p5j0f1/El%20Cap.pdf
Here is another short version written on the NPS site but I think they left out a ton of details: http://www.nps.gov/yose/blogs/Rappellers-Rescued-off-of-El-Capitan.htm
First some pictures:
Up to this point the only problem was losing my rope. My friend started to pull it with a knot still in the end and I decided it was best to just cut it and use his spare rope instead of climbing to retrieve it. Nothing else eventful happened until Richard got stuck. We got to camp five and Richard went down first. He studied the topo for a few minutes and told me he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor.
He went down and I didn’t hear anything for a while on the radio, so I tried to communicate and didn’t get anything right away. After another 10-15 minutes I heard, “I am at the bottom of the ropes and there isn’t an anchor.” He said he could descend a little farther. After a minute his next call was, “I am hanging in mid-air and can’t go down any more.” Before I could really respond he radioed me again and this time I could hear the panic kick in, “Dude I am stuck and there are no anchors.” I asked him to come back up but didn’t hear anything. Later on I would find out that he was hanging below the great roof. I would say about 15-20 minutes went by before he finally responded again telling me he was stuck and had vomited a few times since his last call. He said he was very dehydrated and scared. The communication was all one sided though. I kept asking him questions to see how he was actually doing and see what options we had to fix the situation but of the few times he responded he just told me how sick he was and never addressing what I asked him directly. Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me but had prussiks with him. I mentioned that I could secure each separate side of the rope using a prussik on a munter but that he would have to work with me to keep one rope locked off and let the other go to transition the weight. I mentioned that if he could do that I could come down the other rope and help him as well as give him the ascenders if he felt that was easier or possibly haul him up. I didn’t get any response until he told me once again how sick he was but this time he said he needed help. It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck. More tries on the radio got no answer from him.
At this point I decided we had no option but to call for help as he had asked. My phone had about 25% charge and after about 6-8 attempts to call 911 the call went through. Just as I got into the details of our situation the call disconnected. A number of other attempts failed as well. I radioed Richard and told him I was calling and asked again if he could do anything but got no answer. I ended up trying a few other numbers and it so happened that my friends number worked so I quickly told him the details and asked him to call 911 for me. I later found out he was sitting on the toilet in house when I called him which for some reason seems a bit humorous now.
Another 20 minutes went by and I got a call from the Yosemite emergency number. The YOSAR member Chris got all the details from a number of disconnected calls and explained that he was going to send someone with a spotting scope to the meadow to see where we were at and what we could do to rescue ourselves. This is what I tended to think was going to happen and had no complaints about YOSAR trying to talk to Richard. My phone had a few minutes of battery left so the ranger (I think I may have talked to more than one) got our radio channel and said he would communicate on that which luckily had a full charge.
The YOSAR member who talked to us on the radio talked to me first and got more info on the gear we had and what the situation was exactly. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. At this point he was responsive on the radio but the rescuers told him repeatedly to hold the talk switch down longer so what he said was understandable. The rescuer eventually got Richard to try prussiking up. I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him. At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up. Over the next 2 hours or so Richard radioed down to tell YOSAR how dehydrated he was more than once. The rescuer told him if he got back to the anchors there was water waiting with me(which was true). During this time I didn’t have much to do except wait. I kept the radio next to me and just sat for most of the time. I nodded off a few times while sitting up which made waking up like one of those dreams of falling, despite knowing exactly where I was. Eventually I just laid down on the ledge and put the radio by my head. After a while it was obvious Richard wasn’t going anywhere fast and had managed to ascend only 50-70 feet in over 2 hours. At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap. The rescuer on the radio explained that that wasn’t an option whatsoever due to the danger and told Richard he needed to keep trying to ascend. Not too long later though they communicated that a rescue was being planned and told Richard he could stop and asked if his legs were going numb and he confirmed that they were. The rescuer told Richard to now descend 20 feet where he had a place to at least place his feet. And now the waiting began. Richard said he needed to get down and they said he couldn’t expect to see a rescuer for a few hours.
A frustrating picture:
My friend took it during the rescue. He kept saying he was vomiting but I guess he was able to snap a pic while unable to do anything else.
To answer a few people:
Would I do it again? I lost my rope (which will put climbing on hold for a while when combined with a fine) so at the moment I can’t, but either way I think the answer is no. When I go back at some point it will be to climb it.
Yeah I got a citation for Disorderly Conduct: Creating a hazardous situation. The officer claimed rockfall being a danger to climbers below was one reason. Which would be understandable but there were no people below us on the route. I won’t know the court date for weeks and have no idea what to expect for the fine amount.
If I had the time I would head to the valley just to talk to Rohrer but don’t have the time unfortunately.
Thats the story as I promised. Time to run and hide now huh?
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crasic
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:16am PT
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well, at least you weren't the one to f*#k up. I bet it was pretty frustrating on your side.
Your friend basically just went into shutdown mode from fear it seems and couldn't snap out of it. Shitty situation to be in as the partner, and especially if you now get a big slap from the law.
I have one question though, why did you cut the rope instead of just climbing the bolt ladder back up to it? cutting a rope is an act of desperation done in hellish conditions when all hope is lost. You were up, early, in good weather, on route, and with a nice bolt ladder to get yourself up. Not that it contributed to what happened in the end, but it seems like bad juju,
There is a classic russian mountaineering song thats quite relevant, excuse the bluntness.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
If a friend suddenly turns out to be
Not quite a friend, not quite an enemy, but just...
If you can't tell at a glance,
If he's good or bad,
Take a risk! Take him along to climb a mountain.
Don't send him off on his own;
Have him use the same support hooks that you do,
And then you'll know, who you're dealing with.
And if the guy in the mountains isn't terrific,
If he suddenly flags and goes down,
If he takes a step on ice, and wimps out
If he stumbles and shouts in panic, -
Then next to you is a stranger.
Don't yell at him, - just push him away,
They don't take such guys up into the mountains,
And in songs like this, no one sings about them.
But if he didn't whimper, didn't fuss,
Despite being sullen and ill-tempered, but went along,
And when you fell from a cliff,
He moaned in pain, but held on to you,
If he went with you, as into a battle,
He stood on the peak, tipsy,
Then you can rely on him,
As on yourself.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:36am PT
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Thanks for sharing your writeup, Chris.
I was rescued once when I couldn't pull down my rappel rope and I wasn't able to ascend back to the anchor.
There was a cold rain and I was eventually shivering some.
I didn't even have prusiks, but I was coached to try my 1" webbing slings.
They worked but it was pretty slow, and I didn't want to try the free hanging part due to risk of cramping.
My partner (wisely not joining in my rappel adventure) teamed up with a YOSAR guy and they climbed 2-3 pitches to reach me.
I wouldn't have needed a rescue if I had brought my ascenders, but the original plan was for a weekend of free climbing until the rain started, so I didn't have them in the car.
Even just prusiks would have given me much better self-rescue capability, but I may not have had those in the car either....
I went too light for the task and fortunately I got rescued.
For your team situation, I believe you should have had 2 sets of ascenders, one set always with each person.
That's the way I always do walls.
They are needed if you have to fix any ropes and reascend, or if you take a leader fall into space and need to regain your high point.
I agree with the above post, too - if you don't know your partner well, you may get a bad surprise when you are relying on him and he is not up to the task.
If you had some more experience, you might have been able to do a partial rescue by hauling up one side of the rappel rope until you had enough slack to make a figure eight loop and anchor it.
Then down-jumar one of the strands and coach your partner.
But if you had enough experience to think of that and set it up,
you would already have known to have 2 sets of ascenders....
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:51am PT
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Thanks for posting, seems like it could have been pulled off. Any one of us old farts could have found ourselves in a similar situation when we exercised youthful indiscretion BITD. Kudos for taking a stab at it . Not a lot you can do when a partner hairs out. I say fight the ticket
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Fishy
climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:51am PT
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A funny little sidebar - I nearly choked with laughter when I read the first comment on the bottom of the NPS page (linked above) describing the rescue.
Just after the official report ends with the usual pitch about how attempting El Cap is a major undertaking requiring loads of technical rigging expertise, a lady felt the need to add the following comment prior to her upcoming trip to Yos:
"I read your blog before my visit to Yosemite. I found it sobering. It made me reconsider my shoe choices and I added trekking poles to my gear list."
Brilliant!
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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Thanks for posting that, Chris. Glad you guys survived.
It'd be interesting to hear some more of what you'd do differently after you've had a chance to reflect on how things turned out.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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I just read the 7 page report and it was much more interesting than the short version and included some good details on the SAR operation. Werner even makes a cameo appearance. I recommend it.
And good luck with the court date.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:25am PT
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I don't know what to think of all this. In my day, nobody particularly worried about dying. We knew we would eventually. It was up to us and us alone to keep ourselves out of harm's way. Then the "SAR sites" came into existence (I'm speaking of 1970). People got bolder, but not necessarily because of that. The SAR team was disorganized at first, but it got it together fast when national attention was focused on the Dawn Wall.
The idea that the boldness of climbers increased upon the formation of the SAR is likely not going to hold water. It is more likely that Jardine's Friends and similar tools accomplished that. The Roher (sp?) adventure was openly scorned, however. Each and every one of the guys I climbed with avoided rapping like I avoid deer mice. Deadly.
I want to say, too, that until the lights go out, a guy ought to be allowed to do silly (like rapping a wall for the cheap thrills which can escalate to expensive thrills in a heartbeat or over a couple of hours, like in this case) as long as he has the coin to shell out for a rescue. I think a lot of this is wasteful of time and money for the gov't, but at least the SAR boys and girls get paid for their trouble and risk. they are an indispensaable part of the Valley lifestyle now. People, intelligent as they are, get involved in some really stupid maneuvers and I don't blame Werner one bit for his crusty attitude. It's the stupid ones who don't plan adequately who deserve fines. I think anyone dumb enough to go do what Chris G. did (no ascenders, WTF were you thinking?) is in the latter category. Despite his partner's dimness.
Why waste the time on a rap? We mostly thought Tom R. was nutso, but at least the man was a responsible nut.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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Chris:
A potentially useful thing to do here would be for you to reconstruct how it was you came to decide
you wanted to rappel El Cap. Why that in place of something else? How did this first come to your
attention?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Most people fail their first time on a wall and bail.
Unfortunately if you fail going down it. The option of going up the way you came is considerably more difficult than the mode you failed doing.
It's not unusual for a wall trip to fail because a partner gets the snail-eye but again not much option to reverse what you did when you are only equipped for rapping.
I remember when all I wanted to be doing was hanging out on the side of El-cap.
I seriously wanted to Rap El-Cap back then but instead I found out about the Fixed lines to Heart and usually Mammoth or above.
When I didn't have enough time or a partner I'd take off at 4 in the morning from Reno head up the fixed lines and solo a pitch or two above mammoth. Or just chill out read a book and take pics of various folks from some great vantage points. Then go back home that night.
So yeah I do understand what you did and I could see myself doing it at that time in my life.
Lessons.
Partners for big routes need to be solid. It is seriously tempting to bring someone along who isn't ready when you are so gungho that you'd be willing to solo it almost. I've made that mistake and It never worked once.
You always want to leave yourself a way out when you are learning. (because you don't know what you don't know) This is usually not a problem when attempting from a ground up normal ascent. Lotsa folks bail.
Having that spare rope would have made a difference. You could have gone down and helped your buddy .. brought him some water.. the ascenders and just being there probably would have helped his moral and got him moving.
Then again it seems to me that it's a good thing you guys didn't keep going (see my last piece of advice)
Sending water down the rope might have been an option but not sure as you may not have been able to flick the rope off the wall enough for it to go down.
This is my most important advice right here. NEVER be in a rush. When things seem to be getting messy and a mistake is made STOP! Rethink what you are doing. have a talk and change the atmosphere in your heads. The vast majority of mountaineering accidents did not begin with the thing that ended it. It began way before. For example those bee stings on your buddies legs? Maybe even that far back. Then pulling the knotted end up the rope. Then forgetting to take ascenders on his lead. It's usually a series of small mistakes.. STOP THE SERIES when it first rears it's head.!!!!! Stop relax chill for an HOUR or TWO if you have to. The first weird error is the one that should make you take notice even when it wasn't a real big deal.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:14am PT
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Sending water down the rope might have been an option
Richard said he had a 45 pound pack with him during his epic on the rappel off of Camp 5.
What was in there?
No water or just full of rocks?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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This thread has lifted my spirits immeasurably.
Heretofore I thought I was the Dumbest Man on Earth. I'd say the OP bears
plenty of responsibility for letting his partner go down without the jugs
or prussiks. I won't address the issue of them both not having them.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Ah, the innocence of youth.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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That sucks Chris. I know what it is like to have a partner freeze up on you... These guys have some good points tho, you got lazy with the rope and it cost you. If not you could gone and bitch slapped him and given him some water and the jugs and tell him to get his punk ass back up that rope!!!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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^^^^
Werner told him to do it...
Sorta like a fireman setting a blaze to drum up work...!
Since this is the Internet, I want to say I'm posting the following without an angry or condescending tone... but you guys did screw up badly
I mean, you're rapping El Cap. There's not that much to keep track of but in the first third you managed to make several major mistakes from sheer not paying attention (and how could you not pay attention with the yawning void below you)
Like pulling the rap rope with the knot still in it and then leaving it as trash. If you were confident the knot would stay, it would be safety and duty both to ascend and get it back.
and what's with being crazy dehydrated and a near dead cell only part-way into the journey?
And then managing to forget the ascenders and sending the weak guy down in a section where it was uncertain?
Simply having your wits about you would have saved all these troubles and yet after the first screw-up you didn't heighten your mindfulness and checks.
We all screw up and there for the grace of God go I. But the way the universe works, if you ignore the first warning, the second warning gets harsher until you wake up.
Sounds like your partner had no business being up there and that makes you responsible for him. Sorry it went bad but I'm cool with ya'll getting fined in this case.
(but hey, I wouldn't blame you for going back, just make sure you have your act together when you do)
Peace
Karl
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Thanks for sharing the story Chris. That, and having the innocent naivety to go for it, took a lot of courage. Notice how many fewer people are bashing you now? More like a fatherly "You wouldn't believe the dumb sh#t my kid did last weekend..."
We're glad you're alive to tell us about it. Hopefully your court appearance doesn't leave you too strapped to climb for a long time. Maybe you could request community service in the Valley instead of a fine? :)
Kris
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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In some cases learning the hard way is the best, because it tends to stick with you. Thanks for posting down Chris. Either send me an email with your address or post it here and I'll send some money towards a new rope. Pretty sure others will too. Climb on! or Rap on!
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yo
climber
Mudcat Spire
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Since we're all passing on pearls of wall wisdom, try learning some wall communication skills next time. To wit:
No you fat f*#k I'm not f*#king calling you a f*#king chopper so you better get your sh#t square down there and jug your fat f*#king ass back up here!!!!
Edit: Oh and your mom WOOHOO!!!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
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Chris,
Great job on the follow up. Took some stones to come back here and present the facts and take the blowback. Things could have gone a lot worse if it wasn't for the SAR folks, but you know that now.
Doing anything over a 3K Void is serious sh*t and requires serious thought and preparation.
Live and Learn.
Would love read a TR of you climbing the Big Stone some day.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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Chris,
Glad you guys are still with us. Re-reading your first post, you came off as having your act pretty much together. I tended to agree with Werner, ("any competent well rounded climber can do it"). I thought you should go for it. Reading your trip report, I see that maybe that was not the case. A lot of issues right from the start. Maybe it was a good thing you guys got stopped when you did, it could have been a lot worse you know.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Thanks for the post Chris. As has already been stated, that took some balls.
A note to Reilly about his comment - you may want to re read the thread. His partner did have prussiks and was basically refusing to use them or even listen to Chris or respond on the radio. That dude was in full shutdown mode, and I can see where hanging over the lip of the Roof could be pretty damned scary for someone that's had very little or no exposure.
I have to agree with the statement that you probably shouldn't have gone up there without the proper gear and more experience. Most accidents are the end result of a series of incidents, and you're lucky this didn't get worse then it did.
Chopping the rope, not having dual ascenders, and not being 100% sure of the route and most importantly, your partner's abilities - all contributed to this.
From reading your report, I get the impression that you learned a lot from this, realized your mistakes, and will work hard to insure that you are never in that situation again. Too many people don't have the ability to take an honest look at themselves and admit that they are wrong.
I look forward to seeing a future report from you about climbing the Cap - from what I have heard it seems to be within your abilities with the right partner. And if you do decide to rap the route again to get over this incident, do yourself a favor and go with the Mad Bolter.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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There is nothing on all 700+ channels on my TV that could have provided as much entertainment value as this thread.
And Chris' misadventure is only the smallest part of the drama/comedy.
As Mr. Spock was wont to say, "Fascinating".
:0 Phyl
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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There is no place in this whole thread I ever said "Go for it".
This was projected originally by the stupid troll Farouk along with cragman also trying to project that idea somehow in an indirect way.
Nor did I ever imply for them to outright do it.
All I ever implied was don't blow the op off with all your doom and gloom responses without even knowing the original poster at all.
These guys have to take full responsibility for their own actions.
Various individuals encouraged them instead to climb the route instead of rappelling.
If these individuals had no faith in them rappelling due to speculations on their so called "inexperience" then how the hell would these individuals encourage them to climb the route is beyond me.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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My 2 cents for ya' Chris: I'm with Big Mike, Baba, and Yo.
Here comes the crotchety and lame part of my opinion, feel free to skip it:
I disagree about your brass balls though - your writeup kind of pins everything on your partner while glazing over your own mistakes. That's a big fat red line that you don't cross in my book: In climbing, you're a partnership, not two individuals. You don't hang your partner out to dry - if you trust him enough to put your life on the line with him, you two are in it together, and you have to own the outcomes together.
Edited to shorten and rethink.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Just got back from work and had a bit more time to think about what I would have done in this situation. Bear in mind I have a lot of experience in rescues and have had to deal with a few "frozen partners"
Buddy hung out free hanging on both strands at great roof.
I would not have called for a rescue period. The guy aint gonna die of dehydration anytime soon.. yep he's gonna suffer and I have water. Plus if he was gonna die soon I can get to him and help way before SAR can.
First I would have tied off the rappel with two french prussics. one on each side. (both are releasable under pressure if needed.)
Then I would have told him to put a kleimheist around both strands on his end and get it synched tight and load bearing.
Then I would have hauled one end of the line up with a makeshift haul. Can be done with just biners and slings.
After just enough slack was produced to rapel on other strand i would have switched the french prusik on my side to a kleimheist and hooked in below it and rapped down to my buddy. Taken his backpack and tied it into the bottom of my rap line. I then would have laughed and chilled and eaten and drank water and talked about the view and whatever till I could get him escaped from rap system and set up to ascend with the ascenders and I would have use kleimheists to go up staying next to him .
Keys here is to make it real clear no rescue till he puts that kleimheist tight around both strands. 3 reasons.
1. It's easy to do and hard to screw up. Switching from Rapell to ascend while free-hanging isn't that tough but it IS harder and easier to screw up
( he should have already had it on anyway going into unknown territory... double actually he should have been rapping single stranded merely tending the other line while on a gri-gri and none of this would be necessary at all) Remember this technique next time you rap into ANY UNKNOWN territory! or for that matter known but complicated territory.
2. It ensures he ain't going off the ends no matter what.
3. it allows me to haull his ass the couple feet or so I need for slack to descend the other side.
I woulda been an ass if necessary and left him hangin for an hour or two till he did it.
No freaking rescue unless your dying man and you ain't dying! You are hanging off the end of a rope perfectly safe.
From there I would have led every rappel single stranded on one side (alowing me to re ascend easily if I make an error) with buddy set up for repel double stranded (in the system) before I left. I would have fireman belayed him to every anchor and not let him do anything for himself.
Full on guide mode.
I had to do something similar but way more complicated when bailing from the triple cracks on the Sheild once.
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BurntToast
climber
CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Shame on you for pinning the blame on your partner.
You were the "experienced" member of the party. The "adult" so to speak.
You allowed your less "experienced" partner to rappel without a helmet, pull the rope with a knot still tied, rappel first, take a "50/50 chance" with the correct route and rappel into the void without ascenders, all apparently with a thunderstorm approaching.
YOU risked the safety of your "friend" and the SARS members, not to mention anyone below you on the CLIMBING (not rappel) route.
Your "walk of shame" was well deserved and still continues.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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The second time I climbed Royal Arches BITD was with a partner with little experience. The climb went fine, but it took longer and was hotter than we expected. So he ran out of water, but I didn't know until the climb was done and we had to get down the north dome gully.
Dehydration definitely changes a person. About halfway thru the descent he started to give up, he wanted to just bivy there. We had a conversation with me saying we weren't prepared to bivy (no water, no warm clothes or space blanket, etc.) we'd be miserable for 8 hours instead of 1 but he started kind of babbling, just saying the same thing over and over with a glazed look in his eyes. I lost it and slapped him across the face like you'd see in a movie. And it WORKED! He came to and agreed with me and THANKED ME for slapping him LOL.
To bad you couldn't slap your partner!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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The second time I climbed Royal Arches BITD was with a partner with little experience. The climb went fine, but it took longer and was hotter than we expected. So he ran out of water, but I didn't know until the climb was done and we had to get down the north dome gully.
Dehydration definitely changes a person.
Ironic cause the spring at the top on the climb is safe to drink and year round, that's the way it goes i guess, what you don't know can't help you
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Actually we both drank from the spring. I was wondering why he was gulping it down like a man possessed. I still had water at the top so I just drank and left my existing water for the hike down, which I eventually gave to him. He didn't tell me until later he had run out of water on the route. If I had known I would have stayed at the spring for 15 minutes or so getting him hydrated and making sure he filled his water bottle. I think he was embarrassed that he didn't ration his water.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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CUT THE ROPE!!!
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Pcutler
climber
Iowa
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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i once lowered myself down a weighted haul line by reverse leap frogging my ascenders. Not very sexy but it got me down - doing something like that could have allowed you to get to your partner and calm him down, take his pack and give him ascenders.
obviously its easy for everyone to come up with 'you should have done this' scenarios when sitting behind a desk. Being up a wall 2500 feet and hanging out in free space is enough to freak out almost anybody. When picking a partner for a wall I always figure that I won't climb with anybody who doesn't have the skills to haul my ass off if I were, for example,to break my leg in a lead fall or something. The other side of that coin is that you should probably have the skills to haul your partner off if he were, for example, to loose his marbles hanging out in open space under the great roof.
Sh#t happens, in hind-sight it was probably a dumb move, but when you're dumb you gotta be tough!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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Holy shit! What a big day out for the lads!
Really? Hauling the guy up to get slack in the cord? Hmmmmm.....
Here is my quick take on it in the new NSFW audio rant format™™ instead of doing all that damn typing:
Think the method will work?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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Well there was a solution in this instructional video but might be a little too much like leaving your dog on the peak
then you just chongo hitchhike to the top
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxtg7raPDYo
peace
Karl
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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more audio rants!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Just hearing Russ's voice makes me smile and laugh
Not that his solution would have worked because there wasn't good communication with mr panic below the roof
Possible to down jumar btw on a tight rope but we already know they didn't have advanced skills
peace
Karl
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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Lol nicely said Russ on the audio! It's still looping and I'm still laughing! I think I got told..
Thus why I rarely post advice about walls. My way would work but there's some damn fine wall-masters on this site. I was just an average joe up there.
I do like the down jumar idea even better than mine or Russ'es.. doesn't require anything from frozen partner whatsoever till you get to him and can make sure nothing else gets messed up. It's more work but safer than expecting this guy to do anything until supervised.
Clearly as usual on a wall there are many ways to skin cat.
And apparently they did have communication the guy just would not listen and was freakin out.
Hmm Audio rants .. the wave of the future? love it.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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I thought the dudes had radios?
In true internet fashion I only skimmed the posts... anyway... a good rant is always good even if it is wrong-ish!
cheers!
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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i once lowered myself down a weighted haul line by reverse leap frogging my ascenders. This is what I thinking Chris can do after locking the rope with prussics.
Thanks for report Chris. I have a 2 questions:
1. Did you and Richard before the trip discuss the possibility of been hanging in the air off route , no anchors, and if yes what was the plan?
2. Why if you consider yourself better prepared you let Richard go on 50/50 chance rapell, instead of go yourself? Or it was agreement between you and Richard to switch every rappel?
more audio rants!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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Possible to down jumar btw on a tight rope but we already know they didn't have advanced skills
i would rephrase that to say that they had no bidness being up there at all.
chris, prior to trying to rapp the nose had you rapped of any multiple rappel climbs? you know like desert towers? retreat off of a wall? anything?
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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Wow,
Facelift is only a month away. It will be great meeting all you folks and being able to continue this discussion face to face around the nightly campfire.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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Well the Audio Rant just took this pathetic thread to new heights. Maybe
YOSAR coulda patched Russ through on the radio. "Yo, numbnuts! Listen up!"
I'm just glad Rokjox isn't around any more to get any big ideas, not that
anybody would listen to him for more than 8 seconds.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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Just after the official report ends with the usual pitch about how attempting El Cap is a major undertaking requiring loads of technical rigging expertise, a lady felt the need to add the following comment prior to her upcoming trip to Yos:
"I read your blog before my visit to Yosemite. I found it sobering. It made me reconsider my shoe choices and I added trekking poles to my gear list." This is hilarious!
I think anyone dumb enough to go do what Chris G. did (no ascenders, WTF were you thinking?) is in the latter category. Despite his partner's dimness. We had a pair of ascenders and numerous prussiks...at least read the report if you want to comment and then by all means tear me to shreds.
Chris:
A potentially useful thing to do here would be for you to reconstruct how it was you came to decide
you wanted to rappel El Cap. Why that in place of something else? How did this first come to your
attention? You bring up a very good point. I don't remember when it first started as an idea
I have one question for you Chris... and I mean this verbatim....
When you going back to finish that descent and quiet your critics once and for all?
GO FOR IT!
I'm perfectly serious. Dude you got some big cajones to back them over the Big Void like that and cast down that rap route.
You're not gonna, like, let it be, are you? :-)
DO IT! If you can't count on your bud do it like Rohr did it.
DMT If I were to go back YOSAR would have my head
Sending water down the rope might have been an option
Richard said he had a 45 pound pack with him during his epic on the rappel off of Camp 5.
What was in there?
No water or just full of rocks? I did send him water down the rope actually. I think his feeling of dehydration was more nerves than anything. By that time his pack was probably considerably lighter but he should have had part of the rack, his own water, some extra clothes, and I am not sure what else in there.
We're glad you're alive to tell us about it. Hopefully your court appearance doesn't leave you too strapped to climb for a long time. Maybe you could request community service in the Valley instead of a fine? :) That would work. I have no idea about what to expect from the judge
I disagree about your brass balls though - your writeup kind of pins everything on your partner while glazing over your own mistakes. That's a big fat red line that you don't cross in my book: In climbing, you're a partnership, not two individuals. You don't hang your partner out to dry - if you trust him enough to put your life on the line with him, you two are in it together, and you have to own the outcomes together. I never meant to pin this on him. I made PLENTY of mistakes
Shame on you for pinning the blame on your partner.
You were the "experienced" member of the party. The "adult" so to speak.
You allowed your less "experienced" partner to rappel without a helmet, pull the rope with a knot still tied, rappel first, take a "50/50 chance" with the correct route and rappel into the void without ascenders, all apparently with a thunderstorm approaching.
YOU risked the safety of your "friend" and the SARS members, not to mention anyone below you on the CLIMBING (not rappel) route.
Your "walk of shame" was well deserved and still continues. I never placed the blame on my partner. We were both up there and both got rescued
Thanks for report Chris. I have a 2 questions:
1. Did you and Richard before the trip discuss the possibility of been hanging in the air off route , no anchors, and if yes what was the plan?
2. Why if you consider yourself better prepared you let Richard go on 50/50 chance rapell, instead of go yourself? Or it was agreement between you and Richard to switch every rappel? 1. We did numerous times. The plan was to ascend back up the the anchors.
2. It just so happened that we switched who rappelled and we knew if he went the wrong way he could come back up the ropes. When he got to the great roof and didn't want to move or attempt to come back up.
chris, prior to trying to rapp the nose had you rapped of any multiple rappel climbs? you know like desert towers? retreat off of a wall? anything? Yes I have
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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It seems easy to question someone for mistakes and being not prepared. I myself did some questionable and dumb things.
Once I almost been in similar situation of possible shameful rescue. Very close, but it did not happen.
There are two routes on Elephant Rock in Yosemity which merge at the top: Pink Dream 10a and Fatal Mistake .
Pink Dream is easier and start from the ground. Fatal Mistake has 3 pitches and first pitches from the ground is aid and never been freed. The plan was to climb Pink Dream 10a and than top rope 2 upper pitches of Fatal Mistake which rated in the book as 5.10 ( middle p2) and last (p3) 11a. After climbing Pink Dream from the top of this climb - I've been lowered two pitches down to beginning of p2 of Fatal Mistake. It was full stretch of 70 M rope- the only one rope we had and I was 100 feet off the ground . I did not take any gear or slings with me to be light.
I started climbing and instantly realize that it is not 5.10. Climbed probably 10-12 feet , fall and was back to the same place where I started because of rope elongation. And again, and again. 10 feet up - 10 down. I felt it is about 5.11+ which is above my TR ability. After trying 5-6 times I was really scared that it is going to be very stupid/shameful rescue of me. "Fatal Mistake" - this is a name. I was pumped , tired and felt that I have just one more chance to do my best TR performance in the life. My wife at the top can not hear me, but she realized what was going on and gave me all possible tension from above and basically rescue me. since I passed those first 12 feet the rest of the climb become a cruiser.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 21, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
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Russ's audio rant = PRICELESS LOL!!! I'm jiggy with that. If I couldn't get him to come up... I'd have yarded his ass up like a friggin haul sack.. even if it took all night.
Chris.. thanks for posting your epic. I admire your willingness to toss yourself into the bonfire. Yup.. plenty of things we can wax nostalgic over how-you-could-have-done-it vs what actually went down. Lessons learned. Glad everyone is OK.
PS: "Guggli-mucci" should be added to the pantheon of climber lingo IMO. ;)
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Chad Taylor
Gym climber
Phoenix
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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I am not asking this as a criticism, but because I really don't know. My question is: Is it a bad idea to tie the ends of your rope together? That way you can't rap off the ends and additionally you can't accidentally pull your rope with the knot still tied.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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maybe is just me, but from the perspective of danger/fear/probability of f*#king up.......i would way rather Climb than rappel.
cragman was spot on in his first post and prophetic. sorry chris but this a f*#k up of the first degree.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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not sure this will help but starting Aug 24th REI is having Petzl Ascension Ascenders on sale for $57.99
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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Amazing day for the supertopo, Russ that was groundbreaking. I hope to see more rants on other threads.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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Mussy! Rant on dude....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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i loved the fish rant....only it was way to f*#king productive to be a true rant!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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ST needs to add an "Audio Rant" button!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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Cragman,
How is this considered encouragement?
Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.
Piss easy.
Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.
Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....
If that is than this could be as well.
Don't do it.
You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?
Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
Egging him on by calling him a gym climber, stay off the good stuff till you can climb it, don't burden us pros. How about a fresca little fella?
All I see you doing in this thread is claiming that you are a great guy and a Mentor, then apologizing for being a jack ass instead of a mentor, because its been a "rough time", we all have rough times, get over it. Seems to me that you care much more about your cred here than actually helping Noobs.
And what is with the hard on for WB?
My $.02
Prod.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Prod that would have been so much better under the russrant format.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Dean,
If you are an example of a Christian, I hope I never have to be one.
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BurntToast
climber
CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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"I never placed the blame on my partner"
Really?
1. "While I was setting up the quick links my friend started to pull the ropes." (Translate: Richard f-ed up when I wasn't watching).
2. "my friend didn’t have a helmet with him. I guess not everyone uses them but he left his at the car saying it didn’t fit (it was a unisize) and didn’t tell me until we were in the middle of the descent." (translate: Richard bought a helmet that did not fit, then left it in the car.)
3. "Now he had pulled a rope with a knot in the end. It surprised me." (see #1 above)
4. Nothing eventful happened until Richard got stuck (emphasis: RICHARD got stuck)
5. "he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor (Translate: Richard got the anchors wrong, and he should have been able to ascend after making this critical mistake)
6. "Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me." (Translate: Richard f-ed up again by forgetting the ascenders)
7. "It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck." (Translate: Richard gave up right away. He was just a puss)
8. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. (see #7 above).
9. "I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him." (see #s 7 and 8 above)
10. "At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up." (Translate: Richard was making excuses for why he needed a rescue)
11. "At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim
magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap." (Translate: Richard, in his ignorance, thought a helicopter rescue was relatively trivial and opted for that rather than toughing it out.)
12. "As they got to the top of camp five Chris asked me how I and Richard were doing. I told them Richard was glad they were there and that I was alright." (Translate: Richard needed the rescue, not me, I was fine)
13. "I asked Paul what code 4 meant and he said that meant Richard was fine." (Translate: Richard was fine, he really did not need a rescue.)
14. We got in his car and as he turned the key we heard, “click click click click click click click.” Somehow his battery had died. (Emphasis on HIS car and HIS battery).
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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OOPs Climb2ski deleted the following post prior to my response.
I have never seen a more spot on accurate post than Deans first reply to the OP.
Dean was absolutely correct.
Bullsh#t. He assumed the OP was a troll, and smugly said stay away. Maybe if he or any of the rest of us were Mentors he or any of the rest of us would have given him some good input, and or asked some relivent questions.
Spot on due to lack of "Mentoring"
Prod.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Yeah I did delete because I kinda find these comments unproductive even if tempting.. but now that I'm well in it I might as well support it.
The OP said something that pegged my oh sh#t meter right off the bat too. I didn't say anything at the time cause I kinda thought this was a troll to start off with myself.
The climbing partner I am going with isn't ready to attempt climbing The Nose
Dean picked up on that and while his phrasing wasn't the best he pegged the perfect advice.
I did have a running argument with Dean on this when it came to what the legal penalty should be for this and how it should be judged.
I can totally sympathize with Chris 's situation and could easily have seen myself in it.
I don't mind a fine on this but not jail time and not something financially crippling long term.. Such as the full cost of the rescue for example.
But the fact remains that Dean was correct in his initial advice. Amazingly correct actually.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Perfect advice? F*#k off this is my forum go back to the gym.
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Chad Taylor
Gym climber
Phoenix
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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I am not asking this as a criticism, but because I really don't know. My question is: Is it a bad idea to tie the ends of your rope together? That way you can't rap off the ends and additionally you can't accidentally pull your rope with the knot still tied.
Bump. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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I ry to avoid to tie both ends together because there is more chance that rope be stuck in the cracks when you toss it down. It is easier to manage the rope and toss it down when you have two separate ends
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crasic
climber
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Bump. Inquiring minds want to know.
Its very easy to get it stuck and much harder to free.
But someone more experienced should be able to give a better answer
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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This thread is awesome. It's got it all...
High adventure from the OP.
"Compassionate" Christians.
Audio rants™
Wernerisms.
Shack's tongue up the Chief's ass.
Armchair Monday Morning SARterbacking.
But no spambots selling Hottest NIKE VERSACE GUESS jean for u good best price, though. Give it time I suppose.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Werner has an erection?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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I thought the erection was in November.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:07am PT
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I like to tie independent knots at the ends of both ropes if I feel the need for it. If you tie the rope ends together, the twisting of the ropes that can happen rappelling will have no outlet so it can create a mess at the end of the rope
Peace
karl
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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What Karl said plus I find it easier to throw the two ropes more accurately
if done separately. Plus, if you mess up and hang one on a flake it is
easier to get one back than the two tied together.
I picked up a good habit from Uncle Fred BITD - I don't leave the ground on
anything big without three prussiks in my left pocket. The right pocket is
for the knife in case all else fails.
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Chad Taylor
Gym climber
Phoenix
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks Karl.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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Sometime a few years ago I did start carrying a knife in my chalkbag, but I'm still pretty terrible about not keeping prussiks with me, and often have found myself at belay stations with minimal or insufficient slingery. I need to fix that. One simple fix... switch my chalk bag shoelace that I tie around my waist to a 9/16" nylon tubular webbing.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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I pretty much always carry a few extra free biners, a couple 24 inch slings and an extra 48 on everything. A lot of stuff can be rigged with just that.
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Wen
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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That rant kicked a**!
At the risk of sounding like a numb nuts, how does the partner at the belay secure both strands of the fully weighted rope?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Wrap both strands with a runner/prussic and then I would wrap the strand I was going down on with an extra prussic. Of course if you had an extra Jumar, clamp that bad boy onto the strand and clip it into the anchor... instant fixed line. Or wrap each strand with a separate prussic.... or wrap the not-knot side with some sort of multi wrap prussic/klemheist/bachman or whatever the fancy f*#king knot is and clip it into the anchor.
I would bet if you tied the two strands together just below the rings with shoelace there will be enough friction that the lines will hold fast. Damn! This is almost long enough for another AudioRant™™™
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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"I never placed the blame on my partner"
Really?
1. "While I was setting up the quick links my friend started to pull the ropes." (Translate: Richard f-ed up when I wasn't watching).
2. "my friend didn’t have a helmet with him. I guess not everyone uses them but he left his at the car saying it didn’t fit (it was a unisize) and didn’t tell me until we were in the middle of the descent." (translate: Richard bought a helmet that did not fit, then left it in the car.)
3. "Now he had pulled a rope with a knot in the end. It surprised me." (see #1 above)
4. Nothing eventful happened until Richard got stuck (emphasis: RICHARD got stuck)
5. "he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor (Translate: Richard got the anchors wrong, and he should have been able to ascend after making this critical mistake)
6. "Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me." (Translate: Richard f-ed up again by forgetting the ascenders)
7. "It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck." (Translate: Richard gave up right away. He was just a puss)
8. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. (see #7 above).
9. "I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him." (see #s 7 and 8 above)
10. "At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up." (Translate: Richard was making excuses for why he needed a rescue)
11. "At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim
magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap." (Translate: Richard, in his ignorance, thought a helicopter rescue was relatively trivial and opted for that rather than toughing it out.)
12. "As they got to the top of camp five Chris asked me how I and Richard were doing. I told them Richard was glad they were there and that I was alright." (Translate: Richard needed the rescue, not me, I was fine)
13. "I asked Paul what code 4 meant and he said that meant Richard was fine." (Translate: Richard was fine, he really did not need a rescue.)
14. We got in his car and as he turned the key we heard, “click click click click click click click.” Somehow his battery had died. (Emphasis on HIS car and HIS battery).
His battery? really?! If I had said it was my battery I would have been lying. That is a pathetic example. In every situation you just mentioned I was at fault for not avoiding it in the first place. That is not placing the blame on Richard
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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Thanks for the play by play Chris.
Bet this post hits 1k post, easy.
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BurntToast
climber
CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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"His battery? really?! If I had said it was my battery I would have been lying. That is a pathetic example."
I will give you that point. But it did seem to fit the pattern. You could have just said "the car" and "the battery" and been more neutral.
"In every situation you just mentioned I was at fault for not avoiding it in the first place."
You are correct to acknowledge this point, especially since you were apparently the leader of the trip.
"That is not placing the blame on Richard."
I doubt I am the only one to interpret your trip report as placing the majority of the blame on your partner. Thank you for more clearly acknowledging your fault. It would be very interesting to hear your partners point of view.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:28am PT
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Quote Here Bullsh#t. He assumed the OP was a troll, and smugly said stay away. Maybe if he or any of the rest of us were Mentors he or any of the rest of us would have given him some good input, and or asked some relivent questions.
Spot on due to lack of "Mentoring"
Prod.
BS,
Deans advice was spot in. prophetic even.
i dont like tying knots in my rope either. sorry but if you need them then you should not be rapping off. it is faster without. but you damn well need to have your sh#t together.
i have retreated off of walls in yos, zion, wind rivers and alaska, let alone rapping of many desert spires. never tied knots and never let go of the ropes. rule #1, keep your sh#t together and these guys failed miserably.
i am not disagreeing with these that choose to tie knots, just saying i have never done so
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:30am PT
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Russ noted:
Really? Hauling the guy up to get slack in the cord? Hmmmmm.....
Hmm, good point.
I was trying to think of a way to fix both strands, given an uncooperative partner at the bottom, so I could jumar down one strand, and then coach him to prusik up the other one while I'm alongside.
I don't like the idea of one or two people on a strand that is secured by a prusik with just friction.
*If* the rope is through rings guaranteed too small for the knot to pass through, then that limits the rope movement in one direction. Then a tied sling around the rope below the knot on the other strand will limit movement in the other direction.
Or, if Chris had more quicklinks, those could be placed on both sides of the knot to limit travel in both directions (also handles a situation where rope is not through rings). I am not advocating carrying quicklinks for this special case, but if he already had them....
[edit:] As in my prior post, I agree with Karl - I would not expect guys without big wall experience will not be able to figure out this self rescue stuff out there in the field. Which is why the progression of doing big walls first before rapping El Cap makes sense.
I have to wonder, though, how the Royal Arches rappel route fits in with this pattern - relative beginners do it, guided by more experienced folks. But it seems like a potential place where people will get stuck sometimes and not have self-rescue experience or options. Although descending North Dome gully has been a source of accidents as well....
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crasic
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39am PT
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You could also haul both lines with a third rope, that they left up top for not real understandable reason.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39am PT
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Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.
With a set of ascenders, some biners, and prussik cords he could have just rigged a haul and dragged him all the way back to the anchor. Particularly since after a few feet, he wouldn't be under the roof anymore and could be walking up the walk instead of dragging.
You only have to haul one line as long as there's a knot in the end of that line. You might have to rig a little mechanical advantage to get started but it would get easier quick
When I've taught people to haul in the past, I've often used myself as the haulbag for practice and I weigh 190
Peace
Karl
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crasic
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.
I disagree, I have no big wall experience and marginal Grade IV experience (although my roadmap to Grade V/VI is planned out :D), but I practice stupid things like this on a weekly basis. Go to the local practice crag (luckily its a city park 5 minutes drive away) and set up weird situations to get out of, or practice a new rope technique. Obviously this doesn't beat solid vertical wall experience, but at the same time, I wouldn't feel comfortable trying a system 2500' off the deck if I didn't figure out all the stupid details and intricacies that I could on my 50 foot crag.
From what I've read/heard from Chris and others that know him my experience level on walls compares to Chris's (and our age is about the same), and I wouldn't have tried to do what he did simply because I'm aware of how little I know and how much I can f*#k up without realizing it. At the very least I would have never agreed to lead something like this.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2012 - 04:07am PT
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It would be very interesting to hear your partners point of view. I can't speak for him but I have seen what he has put on Facebook and told other people. He has very clearly stated that if he had left his pack on the rope and ascended without it he could have gotten to the top just fine and seems to feel that would have made the difference. He has said quite a bit more that I think shows his feelings on everything but explaining that is probably risking it looking like I am blaming him.
More interesting would be some pics of his buddy dangling over the Great Roof.
got any, Chris? I don't. From my vantage point I couldn't see him and my camera battery was dead anyways.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:10am PT
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Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.
I disagree, I have no big wall experience and marginal Grade IV experience (although my roadmap to Grade V/VI is planned out :D), but I practice stupid things like this on a weekly basis...
Yes, but few do that like you do and that makes you a geek. (included in my statement) I promise you most regular climbers don't have the guts or knowledge to raise a stranded climber 200 feet or go down to him on a tight rope, particularly 2000 feet off the deck.
But he had all the tools he needed (I think) to do just that. There's this chess like thinking and understanding of the gear that's developed when you climb walls, get messed up and repeatedly have to create ways to get unstuck, unscrewed and unclustered
Peace
Karl
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crasic
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:29am PT
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Yes, but few do that like you do and that makes you a geek. (included in my statement) I promise you most regular climbers don't have the guts or knowledge to raise a stranded climber 200 feet or go down to him on a tight rope, particularly 2000 feet off the deck.
Interesting, I guess I grew up around a different mountaineering/climbing culture, with my dad and his friends being trained in the soviet school which has a more methodological approach to the game.
But its also possible I'm a geek.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:40am PT
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How many of those climbers who must live near your practice area do you see out there practicing?
Its hard to tell, our outdoor club does rope/anchor/climbing training out there on occasion. There are other clubs that go there as well (last week there was a caving club practicing their jugging and rappeling). There are a lot of people simply climbing, because it has accesible TR. But number of climbers that independently go there to practice rope technique? Probably not many.
edit: Also the place has been used for practice of that sort since the beginning of the last century. Cragmont park in Berkeley for those who know it.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:46am PT
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1. Why couldn't the jumars be sent down to the guy hanging in space, by putting them on a biner and sliding them down the rope?
2. The guy hanging in space was not in danger of injury from dehyradtion, there was no medical emergency and no need for a helicopter rescue.
3. Early on in this thread someone mentioned a complication in the rap route near the great roof. I forget the details, but if I were the one rapping el Cap, I would remember.
4. I agree with previous comments that the series of small screw ups should have been a red flag that people's brains were not functioning at 100%. That happens to all of us, but you need to learn to recognize it when it happens to you.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2012 - 11:12am PT
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I think Chris has some real balls (but not brains) to go rap down the Nose. He certainly has some balls to come back here and post. I'll bet, once he develops his brain, he'll be a formidable big wall climber.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 22, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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My faith is what gives me compassion for people
Go back to the gym They should be prosecuted SAR goes out after these morons...while retrieving these morons These two are the same kind of morons we get over here Pinheaded comment. Wise up How pathetic of you, Rick Perhaps you should engage the brain before going off on your mishmash postings Clearly, Werner, MUCH is beyond you....like reality I couldn't care less about Werner he was a "grifter"
Feel the compassion, baby.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 22, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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cragman seems to be a decent guy....but he sure can dig some holes for hisself! pretty damn funny elcap.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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1. Why couldn't the jumars be sent down to the guy hanging in space, by putting them on a biner and sliding them down the rope?
Because the rope is only hanging in space at the last few feet. It's pinched against the rock forcibly in other places
2. The guy hanging in space was not in danger of injury from dehyradtion, there was no medical emergency and no need for a helicopter rescue.
There is a medical danger however, in hanging in space in your harness for a long period.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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Even in my own mental life I go back n forth, back n forth on countless issues - the more complex, the more at stake, the more it tends to happen. The discord if not bipolar nature of this thread reminds me of many of my own moods and thinking processes, regarding climbing, response to Peak Oil, response to American politics, response to world fundamentalism, response to science illiteracy, response to global warming, the extinction of the species, etc., lol!
Time to move on? time to take a OCD pill? hmmm...
......
P.S. A quarter of the reason I climb is for the height, the exposure and the rappel. It continues to amaze me how many of you climbers are afraid - afraid of heights or afraid to fall. As if rappelling is anything like what A.H. does! In WB's words and style: pussies!!
Maybe it takes more ovaries than balls to rappel great heights cool, calm and collected. Ever think of that. It's a fact, more guys than girls pussy out - or perhaps better, c*#k out - in bungee jumping. Go figure.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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I say we should take the arguing to another thread and stay on topic. Not that that's going to happen because people love to argue, but that's the interwebs for you.
A few posts back, someone mentioned that they always carry certain items with them, and I do the same. My "Bail Kit" has a leaver biner, 8 feet of 1 in. webbing, two rap rings, two quick links, one of those little Trango knives, and a Tibloc. I also keep a Petzl micro ascender with me at all times.
Due to having to bail for the first time ever on a Sedona tower last month, because of a single move, I now carry a set of pocket aiders in my backpack if I am going into "adventure" terrain.
Personally I think that Chris is taking all this pretty well. I'd second seeing him climb with Mark someday!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I'll mentor anyone who honestly wants it, but there are only a few people I'll actually do walls with.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Can't we just blame it all on the prefrontal cortex and call it a day?
FYI: prefrontal cortex matures more slowly in males than females. Males not complete until about 26-27...
Maturation of the Prefrontal Cortex
The prefrontal cortex, the part of the frontal lobes lying just behind the forehead, is often referred to as the “CEO of the brain.” This brain region is responsible for cognitive analysis and abstract thought, and the moderation of “correct” behavior in social situations. The prefrontal cortex takes in information from all of the senses and orchestrates thoughts and actions to achieve specific goals.1,2
The prefrontal cortex is one of the last regions of the brain to reach maturation. This delay may help to explain why some adolescents act the way they do. The so-called “executive functions” of the human prefrontal cortex include:
Focusing attention
Organizing thoughts and problem solving
Foreseeing and weighing possible consequences of behavior
Considering the future and making predictions
Forming strategies and planning
Ability to balance short-term rewards with long term goals
Shifting/adjusting behavior when situations change
Impulse control and delaying gratification
Modulation of intense emotions
Inhibiting inappropriate behavior and initiating appropriate behavior
Simultaneously considering multiple streams of information when faced with complex and challenging information
This brain region gives an individual the capacity to exercise “good judgment” when presented with difficult life situations. Brain research indicating that brain development is not complete until near the age of 25, refers specifically to the development of the prefrontal cortex.3
MRI studies of the brain show that developmental processes tend to occur in the brain in a back to front pattern, explaining why the prefrontal cortex develops last. These studies have also found that teens have less white matter (myelin) in the frontal lobes of their brains when compared to adults, but this amount increases as the teen ages. With more myelin comes the growth of important brain connections, allowing for better flow of information between brain regions.4
This body of brain research data has led to the idea of “frontalization,” whereby the prefrontal cortex gradually becomes able to oversee and regulate the behavioral responses initiated by the more primitive limbic structures.
MRI research has also revealed that during adolescence, white matter increases in the corpus callosum, the bundle of nerve fibers connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain. This allows for enhanced communication between the hemispheres and enables a full array of analytic and creative strategies to be brought to bear in responding to the complex dilemmas that may arise in a young person’s life. Once again the role of experience is critical in developing the neural connectivity that allows for conscious cognitive control of the emotions and passions of adolescence. Teens who take risks in relatively safe situations exercise the circuitry and develop the skills to “put on the brakes” in more dangerous situations.5
With an immature prefrontal cortex, even if teens understand that something is dangerous, they may still go ahead and engage in the risky behavior. Recognizing the asynchrony of development of the regions of the brain helps us to see adolescent risk-taking in a whole new light. This broadened view of risk-taking and the concept of self-regulation are explored in the next section.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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what would Weld-it say?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 22, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Prefontal cortex? My mama said Medulla Oblongata
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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Karl I must have missed the part about the ropes going over an edge. Somehow, water was sent down to the lower rapeller, so I'm not sure how that worked. We'll have to disagree over whether hanging in a harness for a few hours constitutes a medical emergency, I've spent a couple nights on el Cap hanging in mine. It is definitely uncomfortable but I think the rescue was called because the lower rapeller was in a panic and didn't know what to do.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 22, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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This is THE THREAD we've all been anticipating for decades - someone asks about rapping the Nose - actually goes out and does it - and royaly fuks it up. I can't believe what I'm reading finally actually happened.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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I now carry a set of pocket aiders in my backpack if I am going into "adventure" terrain.
It's also easy to make an impromptu aider out of a cordalette in a pinch
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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I made foot slings for my ascenders out of my end of the rope once, when we did a Lost Arrow Spire trip that was a little lighter than we planned. I didn't use a knife; just tied in short and used the extra rope as slings....
More on point, at times I've made an aider quickly from slings (I don't use a cordelette). I saw my partner make a foot sling by clipping quickdraws together in a loop when he needed to aid past a move and didn't have slings....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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Karl I must have missed the part about the ropes going over an edge. Somehow, water was sent down to the lower rapeller, so I'm not sure how that worked.
I must have missed the part about water being sent down. I doubt it still
We'll have to disagree over whether hanging in a harness for a few hours constitutes a medical emergency, I've spent a couple nights on el Cap hanging in mine. It is definitely uncomfortable but I think the rescue was called because the lower rapeller was in a panic and didn't know what to do.
if he wasn't rescued, it could have been much longer. The danger comes if he loses consciousness (remember he was dehydrated. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_trauma
Peace
Karl
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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I would not want to try to send my only pair of ascenders down a weighted line that was not free hanging . A spare water bottle, sure worth a shot.
It can work but its risky because generally you just yard the line up and down whenever the item sent down gets stuck. This can get the rope off the wall and pop the item off whatever protrusions, cracks, ledges it encounters. The further down the rope the more weight and the less steepness, the harder it gets to lift or flick the rope off the rock. So there is no guarantee it will work. Not only might it get stuck it might come off the rope with all the shenanigans.
It seems to me the best advice given so far was pCutler suggesting down ascending the rope (after putting kleimheists on each side to secure the rope for later ascent) Down ascending weighted lines is a pain but not too big a deal.
As Karl mentioned however this stuff just isn't familiar techniques for folks who have not done a few walls and had to work their way through the inevitable learning curve of stuck bags, disorganized anchors, Bails with pigs, pendi's and traverses with heavy crap, the endless weird scenarios that just seem to crop up on a wall before you learn to avoid or quickly work through most of them.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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i wuz a ravin LUNATIC till Al Roberts produced a back up lighter out of the haul bag.
Quick, Somebody send Ron a lighter!!
;-)
peace
karl
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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Wings of Steel....Rappelling El Cap- now where did I put that barf bag?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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“I can't speak for him but I have seen what he has put on Facebook and told other people. He has very clearly stated that if he had left his pack on the rope and ascended without it he could have gotten to the top just fine and seems to feel that would have made the difference. He has said quite a bit more that I think shows his feelings on everything but explaining that is probably risking it looking like I am blaming him.”
All in hindsight. He could have done two things with the pack taken it off his shoulders either clip it below him between his legs or [best] tied a figure eight knot and clip it there, let it hang when started the ascent. Carrying a butt bag this way he could rest and using a shoulder harness would help as well helping in distribution of pressure on the body and you packing a parachute cord as in lowering the one set of jugs to him. Others have already posted on addition equipment. As for him not bringing a helmet should have turned back and tried another day.
Just like to know Chris was your intention to do this in one day or two?
The second is hydration, reason one your first rescuer gave you Gatorade that has sugar and salt [not the best] electrolytes but will work to get your system in balance. Wonder if your partner took one of those energy gels which if you take by themselves will make you sick hence vomiting since they need plenty of water to work. Caffeine is a good starter to get you going but when you are dehydrated will work the opposite making things worse; some of these energy drinks contain them and have a good amount. ?????
So not only having the correct gear but the correct fuel and which kinds.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Aug 22, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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Apologies for not following this thread super closely, but have they gone back for the dog?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 22, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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one of those energy gels which if you take by themselves will make you sick hence vomiting since they need plenty of water to work.
I did a climb at Taquitz 20 years ago with a partner who was into those vile energy things. I ate a Snickers and took the lead, he downed a smelly energy concoction, flailed on the follow and proceeded to puke on my rope. Yes, I am blaming my partner and I am not going back for his dog!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 22, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Murcy for the win!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 22, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Petzl Tibloc Ascenders - for those routes where your 99% sure your not
going to have to jug.
after just 12hrs of eating nothing but power bars was turning over
rocks/logs on the descent and eating ant eggs -suddenly quite delicious!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 22, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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It's also easy to make an impromptu aider out of a cordalette in a pinch
One time I made a hammer drill out of a nut tool, some tape, and an boom box.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 22, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Chris, I say, practice up. Take the skills you learned and go for it again next year.
Be sure to rap off something about 1,000 ft high to get started. You can do the Boneventure Hotel in Downtown LA for charity in October. PM me for details.
You got some guts to go over that edge to start with.
Make sure you have the right partner too.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 22, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Wow. I'm with JLP. Great thread. I'd pay attention to Mark Hudons posts Chris. Not sure I'd want to be the guy that got stuck TWICE on the Nose rap, so pass on Dingus's advice.
The rest of youse guys need to be nicer to each other.
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Aug 23, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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He went down and I didn’t hear anything for a while on the radio, so I tried to communicate and didn’t get anything right away. After another 10-15 minutes I heard, “I am at the bottom of the ropes and there isn’t an anchor.” He said he could descend a little farther. After a minute his next call was, “I am hanging in mid-air and can’t go down any more.” Before I could really respond he radioed me again and this time I could hear the panic kick in, “Dude I am stuck and there are no anchors.” I asked him to come back up but didn’t hear anything. Later on I would find out that he was hanging below the great roof. I would say about 15-20 minutes went by before he finally responded again telling me he was stuck and had vomited a few times since his last call. He said he was very dehydrated and scared. The communication was all one sided though. I kept asking him questions to see how he was actually doing and see what options we had to fix the situation but of the few times he responded he just told me how sick he was and never addressing what I asked him directly. Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me but had prussiks with him. I mentioned that I could secure each separate side of the rope using a prussik on a munter but that he would have to work with me to keep one rope locked off and let the other go to transition the weight. I mentioned that if he could do that I could come down the other rope and help him as well as give him the ascenders if he felt that was easier or possibly haul him up. I didn’t get any response until he told me once again how sick he was but this time he said he needed help. It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck. More tries on the radio got no answer from him.
fukin' pussy....cut the rope.....i loath people like that
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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That's funny-- I totally imagined the Touching the Void cut the rope scenario..."I didn't want to do it, but the multiple 3/4 quarter inch bolts were slowly pulling out of the granite under the 80 degree California sun.."
All the suggestions of what everyone would have done are meaningless for a guy too freaked out to do anything. Some people should just not be up on those walls. Same goes for the totally unprepared climbers in my opinion.
How many people posting on this thread (i) would have rapped into the abyss without making sure the ropes at least made it back to the wall at a potential anchor; (ii) would rap into the same sitch without being confident in the ability to go back up the rope; (iii) failing the foregoing, not just batmanned up the f*#king rope for 20 feet to a place where you could get things sorted?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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After another 10-15 minutes I heard, “I am at the bottom of the ropes and there isn’t an anchor.” He said he could descend a little farther. After a minute his next call was, “I am hanging in mid-air and can’t go down any more.”
That's when you know he was stupid bonked. I mean, you're at the lip of the great roof, you should be able to clearly see the ropes hanging in space to their end, and no anchor, Why go further!
peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 26, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Thanks Phyl, it was worth it ,and not just for the Audio Rant™ ...though that was the extra special part!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 26, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Thanks for your post, Chris - much appreciated. It would appear you need to make better decisions in whom you choose to do your adventures with.
You need to ask Richard to come on here and respond. He has a lot to answer for.
From the sounds of things, Richard is an incompetent. He should have known how to climb a fixed rope. Even worse however, he sounds like a total pussy, having called for a rescue more or less immediately without making any real attempt at self-rescue. How many people here on this forum have faced down death in far more dire situations, and figured out how to survive by their own wits?
Calling for a helicopter right away? Are you freaking kidding me, dude?
I'm not sure I buy the dehydration bit, either, considering he had a 45 lb pack, and so on.
With rescue so readily available, is this the choice that today's incompetents now make to solve their problems? Are there no more Real Men on El Cap? Are we no longer willing to be responsible for our actions, knowing that men with bigger balls than us are willing to risk their necks to come rescue us when we f*ck up due to our own stupidity? Whatever happened to paying your dues, to practising rappelling and jugging on a fixed rope hung under a bridge at night so nobody will see you? In other words, knowing what the hell you are doing!
Everyone - if you take nothing more from this story, take this:
Every climber on a big wall must have the tools and the ability - at all times - to move upwards and downwards safely on a fixed rope. No excuses, no exceptions, ever.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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That might be one of your most solid posts ever, Pete.
I'm not blaming or pointing fingers at anyone, just saying that I agree that we all must be responsible for ourselves and rely ONLY on ourselves if sh#t hits the fan.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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Agreed, there was no reason for the "pussy" comment.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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Great googli moogli. A fairly old term.. wonder if an ancestor was involved.
Apropoit commercial
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This whole episode could make a good snickers commercial
Not going anywhere for a while?
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:05am PT
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Yup, he doesn't have to answer to anyone here... only to the charges they filed against him.
I think crying "uncle" is putting it WAY too lightly. I picture someone getting lowered off a top-rope when yelling for such relative.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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ECP, do you run you wall climbs like that ?
Of course not Jim... I'm guilty of just skimming the OP's report and not reading this entire thread.
Like I said, I'm not pointing fingers and know as well as we all do, that we all make mistakes.
My point was if/when you make them, you better rely on yourself and ONLY yourself to get out of the mess.
Cheers!
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:32am PT
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Chris,
Thanks for stepping up and answering so many of the questions posed here.
1. For the record, I never got the vibe you were blaming Richard in your posts. Your facts on the way he handled things pointed the blame.
2. You admitted you made lots of mistakes. Solid move. A great skill in life.
3. You two, as a team, were way in over your head for a mission of this size. Sometimes you only get one "pass" like this. Stick with experienced partners from here on out man. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
4. Going on a mission like this with a guy who's skill set was as limited as Richard's was for you, like getting in a car with a drunk driver. I'm glad you both walked away. Hopefully your friendship stays intact.
5. Keep learning, keep climbing, and keep posting up here. The two of you should just go climb Nutcracker or something and enjoy a nice day on the rock as soon as you can. Clear the air and talk some stuff out. I hope you both have a long and memorable alpine career. See you out there.
-Scott
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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So is this thread going to end up in court testimony?
Just curious.
Worth asking....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:55am PT
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Don't worry. Courts don't allow hearsay.
It has to be eyewitness.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 27, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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The hearsay rule only applies when you attempt to admit the testimony for the truth of the facts asserted. When testimony is offered to show state of mind the hearsay rule does not apply. Another exception would be the,statements made by Chris here on ST.
Chris seems like a reasonable guy so I imagine there will be a plea deal. Community service at Facelift? Harsh ;)
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 10:10am PT
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Chris seems like a reasonable guy so I imagine there will be a plea deal. Community service at Facelift? Harsh ;)
Community service? How about fixing up some of them Nose anchors; heard some of them weren't so hot....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Nose anchors not so hot? I thought they'd all been beefed with all the speed climbing stuff....
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Before I got into climbing, I was a member of the caving club at my school (VA Tech). One of the rules of the club was that you had to go there and sign out on a sheet whenever you went on a caving trip, then sign in when you got back. Otherwise, nobody would have any idea where you were, if you didn't come back. If you didn't sign back in, they would call the emergency number you left, and if that didn't work, organize a rescue. There is no SAR for that sport. The rescues would not be complicated like in Yosemite, but still, the rest of the club would consider you incompetent if there was no good reason for the rescue. Probably would either beat you up or at least make you buy a keg of beer.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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So the wind is howling, I am at the end of the rope, hanging over a big roof, I have a heavy pack, and there are no anchors within reach. I am yelling this information up to Clint, but he can't hear me because of the wind. I have everything I need to get myself out of this situation, but it is still not a great feeling. I can see how Richard would be totally freaked out. This was Saturday and we were replacing the bolts on the Odessey. This is a route you would not normally rappel, so we were ready for most anything. I was tension traversing down the side of the roof trying to get a directional in when I lost it and went flying off into space. I had the Cell Phone, went down a single strand to locate the next anchor, had a small rack, food and water. The anchor was eventually found, and we got the job done but reascending that rope was work. I do this jugging/rappelling stuff all the time but that kind of jug is never easy. Reading this thread for the last few weeks, it was easy for me to be critical just like many of you. Sure, they were way in over their heads, did lots of dumb stuff, but getting back up over the lip of that roof on a double rope with just prussics would have a bit tiring for me. So there I was, and Chris and Richard was the first thing that flashed into my mind and I laughed out loud. Clint is now Chris and I am Richard. We are an experienced team, I have everything I need, but I was pretty worked by the time I got back up over that roof. I must be a bit of a pussy too. Give us a trip report Richard. It would be great to hear your thoughts while you worked your way back up that rope. You must have been a mental and physical wreck by the time you got over the lip of that roof. Did you just hang from one while you untied the other to get it over the lip? Did you have any back-up? Tell us your story.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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I apologize for calling Richard a pussy. That was uncalled for. I owe him a beer on the bridge for that crack.
I verily believe he took the easy way out, however, knowing that rescue was the easier option to actually taking responsibility for his situation, and making the significant effort to solve the problem and extract himself from his dilemma.
I stand by the rest of my post, though.
Can anyone provide a link to his Facebook page, please?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Kudos, I think people get 75% their jerk points if they apologize and mean it
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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For them to recover from their mistake and continue down the Nose would have been quite a feat.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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For them to recover from their mistake and continue down the Nose would have been quite a feat.
How so? Going off route on a long rappel that you've never done is practically expected.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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I hear they are going to attempt Astroman in mid-Winter.
In fine style, an onsight rappel, awesome
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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I have to laugh at the "45 pound" pack though.
What the hell was in that thing!
I have all the cams, pins, beaks, nuts, misc, 80 biners, my harness, both sets of aiders, both sets of hooks and my hammer; most of the hardware I'm going to use this fall on Lost in America and it weighs barely more than 45 pounds! (Weighed on a scale, +\- 8 oz accurate)
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Miscellaneous thoughts
WTF were you thinking??>>??
OK, now to be serious.
Getting stuck or stranded is a common cause of rescue, even on "easy" rappels. See this year's Accidents in North American Mountaineering - 2012.
Or see what Roger Brown, with a LOT of experience on big rappels said upthread:
Clint is now Chris and I am Richard. We are an experienced team, I have everything I need, but I was pretty worked by the time I got back up over that roof. I must be a bit of a pussy too. Give us a trip report Richard. It would be great to hear your thoughts while you worked your way back up that rope.
"Even" the Royal Arches rappel route has had rescues (including in ANAM 2012)
For any rap, BOTH partners need the essential rap escape equipment (including food, water, wind jacket, helmet) with them at all times. For a rap of this difficulty, you didn't have nearly the essential gear (e.g. 2 sets of ascenders). Nor the skills and experience.
I think most climbers with a few dozen rappels under their belt have had at least one that didn't go smoothly and require self-extrication such as some prussiking or finding an anchor you've missed, or unexpectantly come to the end of the ropes, or gotten one stuck and had to re-ascend it.
In 23 raps down the Nose you could expect to have several hangups.
Especially since the likelihood of you making it all the way to the ground during daylight hours was nearly nil.
As many have said: Know Your Partner. As you've accepted, this is the more experienced partner's responsibility.
Bad night's sleep, stuck rope, missing a helmet. Bad way to start.
***When things start going badly, re-evaluate the situation BEFORE digging a deeper hole.
Time to ascend the bolt ladder back to the top, get more practice and come back another day.
Given the overall situation, Richard's incapacitation, your lack of experience and equipment, going down the ropes to help Richard might have been catastrophic for you both.
Yes, Richard was at significant risk dangling at the end of the ropes, especially if he was dehydrated with lower than normal blood volume.
Suspension trauma (Syn. "orthostatic shock while suspended")[1], also known as harness hang syndrome (HHS), or orthostatic incompetence is an effect which occurs when the human body is held upright without any movement for a period of time. If the person is strapped into a harness or tied to an upright object they will eventually suffer the Central Ischaemic Response (commonly known as fainting). If one faints but remains vertical, one risks death due to one's brain not receiving the oxygen it requires If you'd waited any longer to call YOSAR you might both be dead from the storm and the following night out on the ropes.
Finally: Once you got stuck, you didn't totally F#@# up and make it seriously worse! That in itself is an accomplishment.
and yeah, you know all this now.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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There I was, looking down at the end of my ropes thinking, I wish I would have put some knots at the end. I had a 100lb haulbag attached to my belay loop, there was only about 10' of rope left and no anchor in site. I was on double ropes and even if I had my jumars, which I packed in the bottom of the haulbag, I really didn't know how they were going to do me any good with the double ropes. I guess I could jumar the end without the knots and hopefully have them jam against the webbing. But, that sounded REALLY scary. If the knot jumped the sling then I could see me counter balancing the bags, pulling them up really fast and sawing through the webbing.
It was 1997 and I had just climbed my first bigwall, the NA, solo. Now I was on the East Ledges, feeling totally stranded. A lot of climbers told me I wasn't ready for such an undertaking but I went anyway, and feeling pretty good about my 9 day solo, until now.
I was so scared and felt so alone I felt tears welling up in my eyes. Come on pull it together, I thought. Every time I tried to relax, even a little, I slipped a half an inch at a time, down the ropes. Ok, first off I need to tie burly backup knots at the end of the ropes. This was difficult and a bit scary trying to hold my brake hand and tie this knot. I finally accomplished it and decided to just rap to the knot and let it jam against my rap device so I at least can use both hands.
It worked. Luckily, I had a couple of slings which I tried several different friction knots; The Bachmann, prusik, and klemhiest. The klemhiest seemed to work the best with the slings I had and had to wrap it with extra wraps to prevent it from sliding.
It took a while but I finally escaped from the bag and left it hanging from the end of the ropes as I slowly made my way up the double ropes. Most of my rigging gear was down in the haulbag but I managed to rig a system and start hauling my pig back to the edge. Luckily, a couple of friends came by and helped me haul the bag the rest of the way out.
I was in over my head the second I left the ground and most people would have said I had no business trying what I did. I took responsibility every step of the way, even though I screwed up several times. I learned more on that wall than any other wall I've ever done. I was scared shitless many times but kept it together enough to get myself out of the situations I got myself in.
Everyone makes mistakes, in life, relationships, climbing, etc. The key is to stay calm and figure out how to fix the mistake... and then learn from it.
I didn't recount this story for the OP's benefit, I'm sure they have learned plenty from their mistakes. But, to those who might be reading this and who are new enough in this game we play that it might make a difference someday, for them.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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ECP I second that, about the East Ledges descent. It's just supposed to be an easy way off el Cap but it's sketchy. I remember my ropes not reaching the anchors and having to wrestle with the pig on a grassy ledge without being clipped in. What a nightmare. The next rope I get is going to be 65 meters or more. I've never had an epic because my rope was 10 feet too long.
We need to know what was in the 45 lb rapeller's pack. Must have been something useful in it. Nothing useful at all? No water? I dont think I would ever want to rappel el Cap with a 45 lb pack on my back. Between my legs, ok - then I can get into it or just leave it at the end of the ropes. I can just imagine, hanging in mid air under the great roof, with both hands locking off the rope, and a 45 lb backpack to throw off my balance and make me spin around. In ECP's situation I might have cut the pig loose, and hope no one is down there to get hit by it.
Geez I mean with 45 lbs, you could have brought a portaledge, sleeping bag, a hanging stove, a couple gallons of water and 10 lbs of Hudon's gnarly wall coffee and still had room for jumars.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
I am glad my tax dollars helped support this adventure and the great outcome of no one hurt or dead.
If we do not create a society that can on the fringe support adventure then I see not much reason for society.
If we choose to support adventure then we must pay the price. Mistakes will occur, assistance will be requested and we as a collection of souls, as decent humans must, will heed the call for help.
In the end I only know of one good rule in climbing. No one dies no one gets seriously hurt. Oh and One other rule that doesn't matter in this situation
I've always wanted to rap the nose, not with a burning desire but I always thought it would be fun. Except for hiking the sh#t needed up there lol.
Chris if you ever want to try it again and want a partner I'd be glad to go.
I actually hope you contact me for it. Same goes for your buddy.
/salute
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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Holy frig, Ammon! I got sweaty hands just reading that! Where's my chalk bag? [Oh yeah, I don't own one]
Note to n00bs - you can do a double rope rappel using a locking carabiner and an alpine butterfly knot, which allows you to rappel on a single strand using your autolocking Grigri as a rappel device. When you let go of the lever, you are safely locked off. Later, you can pull down your rappel ropes from the other side.
READ THE PETZL CATALOGUE so you know how to do it. And don't end up dead like the guy on Serenity Crack - Sons of Yesterday who didn't read the catalogue, and thought he knew how to do it.
Besides having the facility to move up or down a fixed rope at all times on a big wall, everyone needs to have the brains and balls to keep their head together when the sh|t starts to hit the fan. Certainly Richard has some brains or he would be dead by now.
Big wall climbing, or rappelling, is a continuous problem solving experience. This is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact. If you are not smart, and a good problem solver even when you are scared, you have no business being up there.
{Pete brushes imaginary chalk off his hands}
Right then, anyone else have any questions about big wall climbing? ;) Your friends here at McTopo are eager to help.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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ECP I second that, about the East Ledges descent. It's just supposed to be an easy way off el Cap but it's sketchy.
I just went the wrong way, rapped straight down the middle between the common raps and the old-school descent. Saw some slings around a tree and went right over the edge onto the face, ha haa.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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I was so scared and felt so alone I felt tears welling up in my eyes. Come on pull it together, I thought. Every time I tried to relax, even a little, I slipped a half an inch at a time, down the ropes.
90% chance of nightmares tonight. I don't know of any such story, but I guess it's likely that some time, somewhere, someone took the ride in this same scenario. The slow and relentless slip toward the end of the rope. Gulp.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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Chris...
I hope you learned your biggest lesson HERE and one I thought I taught you.
DO NOT EVER GO PUBLIC VIA THE INTERNET ASKING FOR ANY ADVICE WITH ANY PLAN, EVER! REGARDLESS WHAT THAT PLAN MAY BE. UNLESS OF COURSE YOU ARE WILLING TO GET YOUR ASS ALL TORN UP BY PUBLIC OPINION.
Like the individual sphincters that they have, they indeed also have their opinions.
In the future just go frkn do it.
End of story!!
Hmmm, not so fast. Chris asked for advice beforehand. The first page or more of this very thread is responses that told him no, don't do it, rappelling El Cap is NOT a good idea. (On first page, only exception is Werner).
It was actually really smart to ask for advice here. The smartest decision he made during the entire adventure.
But the advice he got was not what he wanted to hear so he ignored it. That was his first and biggest mistake.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 27, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
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Chris: true story sometime in 1975? One of the Regional Combatant Commanders at The Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center, California [Pickel Meadow on the east side over Sonora Pass] said he wanted 4 of his best trained to go down El Cap on Rohrer’s route, they refused or said to him F%ck you, it went to the Base Commander and he called it off due to danger of a training mission.
Base is used as a major subordinate element of Marine Air Ground Task Force Training Command, and with support from Marine Corps Installations - West, conducts unit and individual training courses to prepare USMC, Joint, and Allied Forces for operations in mountainous, high altitude and cold weather environments in support of the our wars.
Purpose: the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Operations Training and Readiness Manual, train elements of the MAGTF across the warfighting functions for operations in complex, compartmentalized, and mountainous terrain utilizing military mountaineering skills in order to enhance a unit’s ability to shoot, move, communicate, sustain, and survive in mountainous regions of the world.
*Just Highlighted a couple. You have already done some below. As for shooting, Ah! Another story just a different place.
MW-CLEQ-2041 Employ personal clothing and equipment
MW-CLMB-2050 Perform friction belay
MW-CLMB-2056 Perform mechanical belay
MW-CLMB-2061 Lead climb using aid climbing techniques
MW-CLMB-2062 Perform a vertical rescue
MW-CLMB-2063 Conduct a lead climb on steep earth *steep earth? Should change to steep terrain.
MW-CLMB-2064 Manage a fixed rope installation
MW-ENVR-2116 Implement the principles of mountain safety
MW-ENVR-2117 Implement the principles of mountain health awareness
MW-ENVR-2122 Field forecast weather
MW-MOVE-2178 Evacuate a casualty
MW-SURV-2213 Procure water *Would add with the addition of proper Hydration system which they do overseas. Some will buy their own 40% off and have it shipped free.
MW-SURV-2214 Construct an expedient survival shelter
MW-TRST-2247 Conduct knot tying drills
MW-TRST-2249 Employ rock protection
MW-TRST-2250 Construct an anchor
MW-TRST-2253 Manage a rappel site
MW-TRST-2254 Tension a rope using mechanical advantage
MW-TRST-2256 Manage a high-tension rope installation
MW-TRST-2257 Manage a raising/lowering system
MW-TRST-2259 Employ permanent rock protection
They do make a manual or show and some are questionable or better ideas from those climbers who have rapped the nose but will work.
So this does not mean you have to be a marine or join to do this, just some thinking next time. Issues that need to be worked out. No biggie.
And as for being a marine there are a lot of climbers here on ST that could teach better techniques that have higher IQ’s with using less crap.
When you tell the judge just tell him “Yes, Your Honour, I will not make this mistake again”, this way he will think you will not do the rap ever again while you are thinking in your mind just need to go the other way.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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classic Russel!
I've heard other reports, friend of a friend sort of things...
...what a cluster, including the extended cluster that is the STForum.
Evolution works, don't interfere!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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lost,
That's a funny tale. My first time climbing/rapping/etc was at MWTC Bridgeport,up at Leavitt Training Area. Swiss seats and single lockers, fun times.
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bbbeans
Trad climber
Missoula, MT
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Aug 29, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Chris, Thanks for sharing the experience in the trip report. It was certainly informative. You and Richard would have been in some really serious sh#t without YOSAR. Thanks for coming back to this forum and letting everyone know the story. That took guts.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2012 - 02:58am PT
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Chris,
Thanks for stepping up and answering so many of the questions posed here.
1. For the record, I never got the vibe you were blaming Richard in your posts. Your facts on the way he handled things pointed the blame.
2. You admitted you made lots of mistakes. Solid move. A great skill in life.
3. You two, as a team, were way in over your head for a mission of this size. Sometimes you only get one "pass" like this. Stick with experienced partners from here on out man. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
4. Going on a mission like this with a guy who's skill set was as limited as Richard's was for you, like getting in a car with a drunk driver. I'm glad you both walked away. Hopefully your friendship stays intact.
5. Keep learning, keep climbing, and keep posting up here. The two of you should just go climb Nutcracker or something and enjoy a nice day on the rock as soon as you can. Clear the air and talk some stuff out. I hope you both have a long and memorable alpine career. See you out there.
-Scott
I haven't climbed with Richard since, but I can say that I probably won't be doing much climbing or rapping with him in the future. We are on good terms but I don't feel he walked away from this learning a whole lot, and that worries me.
For them to recover from their mistake and continue down the Nose would have been quite a feat.
This is what bothers me most of all. It shouldn't have been a feat to continue and considering what I know it wouldn't have been if I had explored other options to help him out.
I have to laugh at the "45 pound" pack though.
What the hell was in that thing!
I have all the cams, pins, beaks, nuts, misc, 80 biners, my harness, both sets of aiders, both sets of hooks and my hammer; most of the hardware I'm going to use this fall on Lost in America and it weighs barely more than 45 pounds! (Weighed on a scale, +\- 8 oz accurate)
His pack wasn't even close to 45 lbs (Though every hiker on the falls trail that commented on the ropes we had was given the exact weight of his pack like it was an accolade). I am sure it felt heavy on the falls trail, as did mine, with a rope, water, food, cams/gear, clothes but even then 45 was probably pushing it. On the wall his pack was probably more like 15 maybe?
As for being dehydrated...I think he just felt sick and called it dehydration. By the time he had stated he was dehydrated, it was probably only 30-40 minutes from the last time he had water. I am not saying he didn't feel bad or sick, but I think his nerves are what made him feel sick.
Hmmm, not so fast. Chris asked for advice beforehand. The first page or more of this very thread is responses that told him no, don't do it, rappelling El Cap is NOT a good idea. (On first page, only exception is Werner). Most of the replies weren't advice at all. I didn't ignore any replies. I saw them all and made the decision to go, whether or not that was the right decision. That doesn't mean I ignored anything.
MW-CLEQ-2041 Employ personal clothing and equipment
MW-CLMB-2050 Perform friction belay
MW-CLMB-2056 Perform mechanical belay
MW-CLMB-2061 Lead climb using aid climbing techniques
MW-CLMB-2062 Perform a vertical rescue
MW-CLMB-2063 Conduct a lead climb on steep earth *steep earth? Should change to steep terrain.
MW-CLMB-2064 Manage a fixed rope installation
MW-ENVR-2116 Implement the principles of mountain safety
MW-ENVR-2117 Implement the principles of mountain health awareness
MW-ENVR-2122 Field forecast weather
MW-MOVE-2178 Evacuate a casualty
MW-SURV-2213 Procure water *Would add with the addition of proper Hydration system which they do overseas. Some will buy their own 40% off and have it shipped free.
MW-SURV-2214 Construct an expedient survival shelter
MW-TRST-2247 Conduct knot tying drills
MW-TRST-2249 Employ rock protection
MW-TRST-2250 Construct an anchor
MW-TRST-2253 Manage a rappel site
MW-TRST-2254 Tension a rope using mechanical advantage
MW-TRST-2256 Manage a high-tension rope installation
MW-TRST-2257 Manage a raising/lowering system
MW-TRST-2259 Employ permanent rock protection
As you said, those may not all be practical, but I will see if I can find them just out of curiosity.
When you going back up there to rap the Nose again, Chris? You don't happen to be a YOSAR guy trying to get evidence against me do you? But in all seriousness, I never said I won't go back. If I do it will be a while though. The single issue of finding a partner, and getting to know/trust them would take a while by itself. And thats just one challenge while assuming it is still an interest of mine.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:26am PT
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hey, isn't facelift coming up? why don't we all meet at the top and do a mass "Rap El Cap" conga line. that would be fun. Chris can even return for a encore. Probably get in the Guinness book of world records.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:36am PT
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^^^^^ Conga! [Like]
Get Welt-it to organize or many will dye.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:55am PT
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Jon and I are going to be fixing pitches at the base of El Cap starting Sept 13. Why don't you come on by and learn stuff? Bring your jugs.
Anyone else for that matter. We can always use help getting the junk show up to the base and a few pitches up. We'll have some beers, have some fun, you can learn some cool hauling and pig packing tips. Learn how to lower your Wank Factor and tame your entropy. Get your Big Wall Tips of the Day right on the wall.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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Hmmm, not so fast. Chris asked for advice beforehand. The first page or more of this very thread is responses that told him no, don't do it, rappelling El Cap is NOT a good idea. (On first page, only exception is Werner).
Most of the replies weren't advice at all. I didn't ignore any replies. I saw them all and made the decision to go, whether or not that was the right decision. That doesn't mean I ignored anything.
"That doesn't mean I ignored anything" Well, in point of fact, yes it does. You asked for "any thoughts." The very first response was "Don't do it....." it also advised you that SAR already had enough to do. That's a reply. A blunt one, too. Given such negativity, it would have been smart of you to review, with extreme care, the skills, equipment and planning of yourself and your partner.
Sorry to bring this up again. When you call out a rescue it puts lives at stake. I know I'd feel truly terrible if I needed a rescue due to some stupid goof and, say, Werner were to die during said rescue. My friend Hugh Herr, inexperienced, and after being advised that the weather forecast was bad, set out to climb Mt Washington. Sure enough, weather went real bad, they suffered frostbite, became lost, needed rescue. One of the rescue team died. Something that will haunt Hugh his whole life.
I don't mean to be too hard on you. I've done plenty of stupid things over the years. How about this: I recall trying, long ago, an over-the-shoulder rappel, worked great at first but as the cliff steepened to overhanging the burning pain in my arm (no sleeves, duh) and shoulder (thin shirt) became unbearable. After I let go of the ropes I fell then landed in the top of a tree. Climbed down, unhurt, very lucky. That makes your El Cap efforts look pretty professional!
Enough. I really hope all goes well (or much better, anyway!) on whatever adventures you have lined up next.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 30, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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I never said I won't go back. If I do it will be a while though. The single issue of finding a partner, and getting to know/trust them would take a while by itself. And thats just one challenge while assuming it is still an interest of mine.
and figuring out how this rappelling thing is supposed to work.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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Help Pete carry his gear and fix his pitches. I wish I'd had an opportunity to learn from someone that experienced, but I tend to learn things the hard way too.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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Chris -- "I don't feel he walked away from this learning a whole lot, and that worries me."
That was my impression too after talking to him.
You actually were much more reserved.
I got the feeling right then and there that he was the major problem ....
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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I got the feeling right then and there that he was the major problem ....
Oh... I thought it was your fault! Where's Cragman I think Richard needs a mentor.
Prod.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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Jon and I are going to be fixing pitches at the base of El Cap starting Sept 13. Why don't you come on by and learn stuff? Bring your jugs.
PassThePitonsPete
That is a damn fine offer to take up.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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It is, actually.
For the record, I am always looking for people to help schlepp stuff in exchange for learning stuff, and having lots of fun! I try to do two walls every wall season, which means there are always two chances to come and hang out. Bring your jugs, come on up on the wall, hang out, drink some beers, listen to some AC/DC, see how we assemble the systems, how you rack your rack, how you pack your pig, how you assemble the hauling systems and the suspension point above the pig. And yes, there will be a pig with your name on it waiting at the bridge! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha~!!!
I am very blessed to have had so many kind folks come and help me over the years, and you're always going to learn stuff. If you're available mid September, let me know. I'll also be starting a second wall early October. And of course, same thing next spring and fall - so stay in touch, eh?
Incidentally, frequent flyer points, groceries and beers are usually enough incentive to convince me to climb a wall with you. [HINT] As long as it's something on El Cap that I haven't yet climbed, pretty much any route will work. Of course, if it has any free climbing, then those are YOUR pitches, mate! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
Just arrived in Kentucky, to do a couple exploration and survey trips into Mammoth Cave, the world's longest cave. Rumour has it we will set a New World's Record this weekend!
Cheers and margaritas!
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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This celebrity got Guglielmucci'd in his kayak, courtesy of the Coast Guard:
"not lost, we knew where exactly where we were, paddling around from csh (Cold Spring Harbor) into wind, we ran out of day. Grand adventure eh."
Edit: This is what happens when Gladiators don't keep up their training after 40.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Good One!
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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Jon and I are going to be fixing pitches at the base of El Cap starting Sept 13. Why don't you come on by and learn stuff? Bring your jugs.
PassThePitonsPete
That is a damn fine offer to take up. I emailed pete as soon as I saw what he said. It is a great offer I won't miss out on!
This celebrity got Guglielmucci'd in his kayak, courtesy of the Coast Guard: I have my own word now? If only it was a positive one. Not saying I won't use it though
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Congrats to you Chris for sticking it out. Most guys would have deleted this thread and ran away with their tails between their legs. Including some of your detractors.
These guys would talk #shit# with or without your presence here and this thread has been amazing for the ideas on getting yourself out of this situation and self rescue in general.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Fix it or F*#k it...bitchin' don't do sh#t.
Except make ya a whiner......
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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10 years from now when Chris is an El Cap Master, this whole episode will be a great story!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Probably be seeing you on the 14th then Chris. Hang loose mang.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 05:28am PT
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Probably be seeing you on the 14th then Chris. Hang loose mang. I will be getting there the 14th as well. See you there!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I'm predicting that Chris is going to top out. If not with Pete, then with someone else he meets there. The idea is to go UP not down.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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As it turns out, many very well-known climbers had their humble beginnings being rescued when newbies or non-climbers. Doug Robinson, Chris Vandiver, Vern Clevenger, to name a few. I imagine it speaks to their unfettered enthusiasm.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
California
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OMG, I've been doing it all WRONG... I better relearn everything. Pete? Haa haa
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Hi Chris G, I didn't treat you the way I would like to be treated or how I imagine you would like yourself to be treated, and for that I apologize. It's mostly uncharacteristic of me to make fun of folks I don't know, but for some reason this was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the Russel Crow story.
I teach my kids that a joke isn't funny if it makes someone feel bad. You seem to be taking the hazing like a champ, but I shouldn't presume that since I don't know you yet.
So, sorry dude.
My own introduction to supertopo was sharing a story about my stupidity on an impromptu free solo attempt in a heavy mist / light rain on Royal Arches only because I couldn't find a partner. We're all human, and wisdom is what we (hopefully) get from experience when we screw something up.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Chris
Rohrer will be at campsite #2, Upper Pines from the 10th to the 17th.
As for the Marine manual looking it up: waste of time, you will learn more from the guys that decide which one comes first or more important: climbing or women. That’s a ?
This way you will learn how to “tie the knot” or that’s knot good, wrong knot, plus the route and a couple of other tricks you would not find in the manual. Plus the manual does not say anything about beer.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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Hi Chris G, I didn't treat you the way I would like to be treated or how I imagine you would like yourself to be treated, and for that I apologize. It's mostly uncharacteristic of me to make fun of folks I don't know, but for some reason this was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the Russel Crow story.
I teach my kids that a joke isn't funny if it makes someone feel bad. You seem to be taking the hazing like a champ, but I shouldn't presume that since I don't know you yet.
So, sorry dude.
My own introduction to supertopo was sharing a story about my stupidity on an impromptu free solo attempt in a heavy mist / light rain on Royal Arches only because I couldn't find a partner. We're all human, and wisdom is what we (hopefully) get from experience when we screw something up. No worries. It doesn't bother me. If I had run away and not responded I would have never had the opportunity to go climb with Pete. So sticking around has been worth it for sure.
Chris
Rohrer will be at campsite #2, Upper Pines from the 10th to the 17th.
As for the Marine manual looking it up: waste of time, you will learn more from the guys that decide which one comes first or more important: climbing or women. That’s a ?
This way you will learn how to “tie the knot” or that’s knot good, wrong knot, plus the route and a couple of other tricks you would not find in the manual. Plus the manual does not say anything about beer. I didn't mentioned looking up the military stuff to actually learn but more to check it out for curiosities sake.
I will stop by and see if Rohrer is there if I can. Do you guys personally know him? Since some of you know when he will be in the valley.
A few legal questions if anyone knows:
A senior female officer who talked to me when I got down directed another officer to write the citation. The officer that wrote my citation was nice enough to mention that if I called up the CVB I could get the court date moved to San Diego. It seems my citation isn't even processed yet but they told me if it is moved I waive my right to plead not guilty. If I can't even plead my case can't they just send me a fine instead of having me show up? Seems to be a waste for me as well as the courts then. But also, what does the judge make the decision based on especially if they aren't based in Yosemite or involved in climbing/the outdoors? If I can't plead my case and the judge bases their decision solely off of a YOSAR report I am screwed.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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If this is a misdemeanor charge
I'm going to suggest you see whatever judge IN PERSON. There could be benefits from seeing non yosemite judge or it could be worse.. hard to say unless you have experience with both judges.
Suggest plead Guilty. If helicopter fees are involved suggest not guilty.
Ask to make a comment before sentencing.
Thank YOSAR and and simply state you were not as prepared as you thought. Take all responsibility, and state you are glad to be alive today. Let them know you have learned a lot and that there is no way it will happen again.
You may have an opportunity to talk to the prosecutor before trial if so do it. ask what penalty he is looking for from judge. Suggest same line of conversation as above except taking responsibility unless he offers a low acceptable fine first.
If they are looking for massive fines ... get a delay or plead not guilty and get a lawyer.
If you are fined you can make payments at $50 a month or so (possibly less) generally.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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What were you charged with, seems I read disorderly conduct? If you send me the code sections you are charged with I will gets some real advice for you. Sounds like a case a judge is not going consider a priority. Of course there may be judges up there that have a hard-on for risk takers. I have zero experience in the courts up there, maybe someone can chime in.
First thing is to get it reduced to an infraction. Second, I would not ask any court to just send me a fine, good way to get tooled. You will be way ahead of the game to show up, in a suit, contrite and apologetic. I suspect this could be handled with one appearance.
Oh, you also have to inform the court that you are currently in therapy with PTPP :)
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
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Suggest plead Guilty. If helicopter fees are involved suggest not guilty. I don't think helicopter fees will be involved but since the officer left the penalty up to the judge I guess anything is possible.
What were you charged with, seems I read disorderly conduct? If you send me the code sections you are charged with I will gets some real advice for you. Sounds like a case a judge is not going consider a priority. Of course there may be judges up there that have a hard-on for risk takers. I have zero experience in the courts up there, maybe someone can chime in.
First thing is to get it reduced to an infraction. Second, I would not ask any court to just send me a fine, good way to get tooled. You will be way ahead of the game to show up, in a suit, contrite and apologetic. I suspect this could be handled with one appearance.
Oh, you also have to inform the court that you are currently in therapy with PTPP :) My citation reads "Disorderly Conduct. Creating a hazardous condition." The offense charged says "36 CFR 2.34 - 4." The dash may be another mark but I can't read it (looks like a small circle, not a zero) however the last 4 is definitely there.
I completely agree that it is best to show up. I just was surprised that they do it that way.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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A fine only appears on a ticket for minor offenses like traffic and parking. Disorderly conduct covers a lot of ground so the is no standard bail schedule. I would not want to say to much on here. I will send you a private message
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I believe in Chris, if for no other reason than he has the balls to stand up and take the sh|t kicking that has [deservedly] come his way. He's no quitter, and that - in my book - is what really counts.
Jon and I look forward to Chris' and Travis' help - and anyone else who would like to tag along and learn stuff - at the base of El Cap next week.
I am always in awe of Ammon with his light and fast approach. I wish I could move that quickly sometimes, but I really can't. I'm really tired at the end of the day. I don't do ANY climbing in between walls! So it seems like every time I arrive in Yosemite, I need to get warmed up and fit again. And just when that happens, it's time to go home!
However I have my Secret Weapon coming to help me this fall - my free climbing gun Jon from Jolly Roger. So with any luck, we'll be front and centre in Tom's photos by the end of next week.
If anyone else wants to come along and learn stuff, be sure to message me, eh?
Cheers and beers on the bridge next week,
PtPP
P.S. Isn't your fine for creating a dangerous situation allegedly because of the rockfall risk that you might knock stuff down on Nose climbers below? If that's the case, it should be easy to beat.
I think you should be fined for choosing the wrong partner, and maybe being a bit too inexperienced. But if there should be fined for that, then I should have been fined for it too a bunch of times. Not to mention another hundred guys right here on this forum!
Geez, you've taken your lumps, you've paid your "fine" here among your peers. Isn't that enough punishment? I hope so. Mind you, if the fine is just a few hundred bucks, then it might be worth it to pay, just to get it behind you once and for all.
Anyway, don't worry about it for now, come on back to the scene of the crime, and have another kick at the cat.
Voice of AC/DC's Brian Johnson:
"Now I'm back in the ring to take another swing,
And the walls were shakin', the earth was quakin'
My mind was achin', and we were makin' it
And you, shook me all night long."
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MassiveD
Trad climber
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Oct 12, 2012 - 02:38am PT
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"And every SAR operation, no matter that it seems like a 'milk run', puts people in harm's way."
Cragsman
Mind if I use that next time I'm trying to get laid? What a hoot.
It would be cool if this long thread had a sign at the beginning saying jump to the 300 block.
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LB4USC
Trad climber
Long Beach
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Nov 27, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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Cool. I just learned over Thanksgiving dinner that GooglyMoogly is my in-law's grandson.
Had a blast showing him all these posts, especially pre-rescue; a discussion of what could go wrong (it did), and the obligatory "You're gonna die" post.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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I got the court date in the mail for February 5th.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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Good luck Chris!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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Wow, Chris didn't have to post that up, y'know?
Thanks for being accountable, Chris. We're rooting for you. Please keep us apprised, and we'll see you in the spring, eh?
And remember your damn glasses this time, will ya?! Sheesh.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jan 12, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Hopefully the weather is good and you get some climbing in. Good luck man.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 12, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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have Werner testify on your behalf...hehe
Yeah man, you should pay him, too, as an expert witness.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
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Good luck with the court thing Chris.
Listen to this part carefully though. Don't be worried, it's gonna be fine. You'll get through it and life will be awesome again afterwards once you are past this speed bump in life's path. OK? Don't fear it, it's gonna be fine buddy. I'm not joking.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Jan 13, 2013 - 01:24am PT
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I kinda wish I had "forgotten my glasses" for that particular trip as well, Pete. Haha. But in my own defense at least I was still on the Bridge the next morning eh?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2013 - 01:52am PT
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Just offer to take the Judge rappelling before he makes any judgement ......
:-)
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Jan 13, 2013 - 02:06am PT
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LOL Werner. Nice one.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2013 - 03:01am PT
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I don't know where I was when this thread first hit but from the OP I got shivers up my spine.
Rappelling has NEVER been a fun activity for me. I get cold sweats when I put all my faith into the anchor and start going down. Just too many places to make a mistake.
Lost one friend that way in the U-Notch many a year ago...
I suppose I would tell people if you really want to rap EC try climbing it first. Get used to the exposure and the lay of the land. 3,000 feet of steep granite ain't the gym!
Otherwise, excellent thread with all the requisit name-calling, innuendo, excitement, corrections, re-statements, bravado, pics, and popcorn-worrthy commentary.
The best part? Russ' audio file!
Rap down there, slap his ass around for being such a dumbarse...* Perfection!
*I know he doesn't say "dumbarse" but ST does not allow profanity...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 13, 2013 - 07:21am PT
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The Vigilante Squad, now why didn't we think of that before?
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Jan 13, 2013 - 08:47am PT
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why not just go and climb some shorter stuff?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 13, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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Travis, seeing you on the bridge next day was like seeing an apparition. I literally could knott believe my eyes.
After I got through my amazement, I was sure glad to see you there, and not stuck in the hospital. How are you these days? What is the prognosis?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 13, 2013 - 10:57am PT
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what happened to the dude that was with chris the guy dangling in space below the great roof?
Exactly, just blame it on him.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jan 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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Chris/Googly - This story may or may not help with your current situation re: court case.
Sometime in the 90s I was on 120 near Porcupine Flat in a line of about 15 cars behind a slow moving RV. At every opportunity 1 or 2 cars would pass the RV, which would not pull over. Eventually I was the second car behind the RV (my Toyota pickup), behind an old pickup truck.
At the start of the next big passing lane I waited a few secs for the pickup to start to pass the RV and he didn't move. Thinking that he just wanted to go slowly, I accelerated and moved into the passing lane. Just as I was almost at the tailend of the pickup truck, he moved started to move right into me in the passing lane. I swerved to avoid hitting him, which then caused my truck to fishtail and go out of control. We left the road to the left and thankfully not over a cliff but into a very large tree. The truck was totalled and me and my passenger were transported by ambulance to the Valley clinic.
While we were waiting for the ambulance to show up the park police questioned me, my passenger and several eye witnesses about the accident.
A few weeks later, to my amazement, I received a citation in the mail. Charge: failure to pass safely.
My lawyer (who I had hired because my car company was not behaving) told me that I absolute had to go in person to the Valley courthouse. He advised me to show up before court started for the day and to ask to speak to the federal prosecutor about my side of the story, and to ask if they would be willing to not pursue the charge (I can't remember what the legal term was). I guess it was a good enough sob story on my part, so when my case was called he went before the judge and asked the the case be dropped. Which it was. I never said a word to the judge.
Maybe something like this would work for you?
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
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I appreciate all of the advice. According to the notice I got in the mail I have to let them know ahead of time if I want to contest it. If I move the location I waive my right to plead not guilty. It sounds like my best bet is to not fight it and probably keep the location in the valley. I will be sure to talk to the prosecutor before hand.
Unfortunately the day I am supposed to be at the courthouse is a day I have class so I am going to see if I can move it to before winter break is over.
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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Jan 14, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
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What was that saying that James came up with?? I think it was:
El capitan
El rapitan
El napitan
And there was a drawing to go along with it. Cracked me up!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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Trials are usually held in the location where the alleged offence occurred. Usually you can only get a change of venue if you can demonstrate some prejudice that prevents you getting a fair trial at the location, or if you agree to plea guilty, and the only issue is the appropriate sentence.
For better or worse, a judge in Yosemite, even if brought in by videoconference from Fresno, should know a bit more about the context than judge from the flatlands.
Read the notice you received carefully, and if you're not sure if you understand, ask someone else to look at it. If you're going to ask that the trial date be changed, be aware that court in Yosemite doesn't sit every day. So:
Notify them asap, in writing, by registered mail, that you plan to contest the charge.
Also notify them that the proposed date doesn't work for you, and provide evidence (e.g. copies of documents) to show why. (Inconvenience isn't enough.)
Tell them what dates you would be available, and of course mention the distance/cost factor.
If all else fails, ask to go before Judge Werner, the only law north of the Merced.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 15, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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Your partner is borderline retarded as far as I can pull from the gist of this without reading every post- rapping into space and no idea what to do with no injury to excuse. I've taught people to jug fixed lines on their first ever day of climbing probably 2 or 3 dozen times over the years working on various ropes courses/climbing gyms/guiding/rescue training etc. I've done half dome 3 times with people as their first ever jugging experience. They all picked up no problem- one RNWF ascent was even sub 8 hours with a first time jugger granted he could lead 5.12 trad. How do you not know how to go back up a rope and get on El Cap? Didn't you guys at least ascend lines up the east ledges before starting on your way to the top? If I was rapping a huge route the first defense if something went wrong- rapping past an anchor/rope distance didn't quite make it etc.. would be to ascend the rope and try something else.
Actually when I first started climbing in Yose I climbed with a guy once a very strong climber that was permanently handicapped from a massive pendulum lead fall into a corner and a permanent head injury. He could barely walk to the base of climbs without falling many times or walk around in camp without stumbles, but he still loved climbing. You know what he did when we got him on 5.8 sections he couldn't climb he got out his ascenders and jugged the rope!
This shouldn't have ever happened outside of a serious injury/rock fall cut ropes/destroyed gear etc unless you guys:
1. Rapped into an anchor in no mans land that left you stranded on a blank wall with no other anchors or cracks in site and already committed to pulling the rope. Thus you would be in a position unable to lead back up or continue down without bolting anchors. Too difficult or extremely dangerous to lead back up with minimal pro etc.
2. If one of the rap route anchors was severely damaged or missing from rock fall etc on the correct route again leaving you stranded without a bolt kit such as some of the anchors on middle cathedral rock in recent years.
3. You had a terrible rope stuck worst case scenario situation happen on a blank rap route. This happened to us once on the Royal Arches rap route years ago when our rope stuck in the most peculiar way in a crack way above. We drew straws with my partner eventually leading a 5.10 unprotected death slab pitch with prusiks on the stuck rope- back up the rap route! Hopefully the rope that was stuck firm in a bottle neck above after both pulling and bouncing our hardest on it would have held a slip.
Small chance of one of these 3 scenarios happening to most people in everyday rapping but you can get totally screwed on a blank rap route a few times in your climbing career even if you do everything right. All good reasons most of us do not enjoy rapping or bailing a big route until it is necessary. At least then you are familiar with the route from climbing up and and better prepared to anticipate any rope sticks/weird anchors etc on the way down. This considered I would bring both a bolt kit and an extra rope in addition to a full kit of wall gear in a small haulbag just to cover my ass if my objective was rapping El Cap.
Rapping traversing and overhanging pitches with wall gear is hard enough with an experienced partner and not high on the fun list in my memories. Just climb it! Wouldn't it have been better to bail from Dolt tower on a failed attempt?
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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Richard and I both get a settlement option. It is a $1000 fine (5% of rescue costs) plus a 12 month probation and it stays off the record. Richard took it. I have the option to take it or fight the violation.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Thats one way to "pay your dues".
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Kudo's for sharing the outcome so far. It's useful information.
Curious what the terms of the Probation are. I'm purely guessing But I suppose it basically means nothing as long as you do not get into the same type of trouble again in the next 12 months. Or are there more strings attached?
If it is what I said above I'd take the deal. It does seem fair. Fact is to some degree you are at fault for some poor choices.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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5% is lower than 50%, at least.
Probably worth it to avoid risking a conviction on your record?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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If you don't take the $1K option then you're really stoopid. Or rich. Or an inveterate gambler.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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This is not a good place to look for legal advice. If you dont have a public defender, maybe there is a lawyer in Merced or somewhere who could evaluate your case for you, maybe pay a few hundred bucks for his time. For me the issue would always be that I have to tell potential employers about my "disorderly conduct" incident and I'd just rather not have something like that in my past.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Well he did say the agreement keeps it off the record. If that really is the case it seems like a good deal. A lawyer might be worth consulting as to how off the record it really is.
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WBraun
climber
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Pay it and be done!
Why?
What did he do wrong?
His partner called for a rescue he didn't ......
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Not sure that has much to do with the stuuupid American legal system. If it really does stay off the record (check into that). Fighting it may do the opposite.
Vast are the number of convictions in this country of folks who didn't do anything wrong. Regardless whether that is the case here.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Get an attorney to review the settlement. I can't see how you "keep it off the record" while having a 12 month probation. You DON'T get probation for infractions, you pay the damn fine and you're done. Someone is bullsh$tting you.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Having read and studied this incident, it really seems to me that while Chris was reasonably prepared and ready, his partner was not. His partner reached the end of his rope, and instead of simply ascending - which any halfway capable climber or rappeller would have done - he gave up and called for a rescue.
That wasn't Chris' fault. If Chris were to pay a fine, it should be much much less than what his partner paid.
But honestly, I don't see Chris as the one here conducting himself in a disorderly fashion nor creating a hazardous situation. I find it difficult to believe that a judge would consider him to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
Thanks for keeping us apprised, Chris. And good luck, eh?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Probation means you can't leave the valley for a year. I'd take it. Hell, I'd pay for it. And you can't associate with any other newb rappers. ha
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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Well, let's see...
I had a minor thing when I was young and dumb, and it basically was a similar deal. Pay a fine, a year of informal probation (don't get in trouble again or you're hosed), and it stays off your record.
Paid the fine, stayed outa trouble, and all it shows is "case dismissed".
Hasn't had any affect on anything I've ever wanted to do, including travel to foreign countries, getting a commercial driver license with hazmat, and some other stuff that included thorough background checks by the feds.
And now I'm older and wiser and would have done things entirely different than I did as an eighteen year old dumbass, if I knew then what I know now.
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tiki-jer
Trad climber
fresno/clovis
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Thread Drift with photos! This device belongs to my friend and art gallery mate. He is a photographer and has climbed with Bridwell BITD. Also helped Madbolter install rap stations.
"Here are some images of my El Capitan No. 6, which I used descending El Cap, and the Glacier Point Apron (from the rail), among others. I was given this by the manufacturer and my friend, Tom. It worked great!"
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Some Random Guy
climber
San Franpsycho (a.k.a. a token of my extreme)
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Well, let's see...
I had a minor thing when I was young and dumb, and it basically was a similar deal. Pay a fine, a year of informal probation (don't get in trouble again or you're hosed), and it stays off your record.
Paid the fine, stayed outa trouble, and all it shows is "case dismissed".
Hasn't had any affect on anything I've ever wanted to do, including travel to foreign countries, getting a commercial driver license with hazmat, and some other stuff that included thorough background checks by the feds.
And now I'm older and wiser and would have done things entirely different than I did as an eighteen year old dumbass, if I knew then what I know now.
ditto that. i did community service and case dismissed. since then i've had numerous background checks by all levels of government (including the fbi and department of homeland security) and nothing shows up. but i was also NOT fingerprinted. most background checks include a fingerprint scan/search. if they have ur prints i'm not sure how that would play out in future searches. they search by fingerprints and/or full name and date of birth.
Having read and studied this incident, it really seems to me that while Chris was reasonably prepared and ready, his partner was not. His partner reached the end of his rope, and instead of simply ascending - which any halfway capable climber or rappeller would have done - he gave up and called for a rescue.
That wasn't Chris' fault. If Chris were to pay a fine, it should be much much less than what his partner paid.
But honestly, I don't see Chris as the one here conducting himself in a disorderly fashion nor creating a hazardous situation. I find it difficult to believe that a judge would consider him to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
i forgot all the details of the predicament at hand, but didn't chris have another rope on him along with all sorts gear at the time? it could be argued that he could have fixed a line and gone down to rescue richard himself. no? the only major obstacle was getting him back over the great roof. it could have been done no yosar needed.
if u are going to fight this what u have to do now is rap the nose solo, complete it successfully, post a trip report, and then go to the judge and show him that it was all richards fault. that should get u off scott free.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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But honestly, I don't see Chris as the one here conducting himself in a disorderly fashion nor creating a hazardous situation.
Well, he did choose to go up there, or down there, with a moron.
Doesn't that in itself create an unsafe condition?
That's why I was never offended when asked to sign a disclaimer for my less discriminating partners.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Doesn't that in itself create an unsafe condition?
As a legal matter Chris was charged with disorderly conduct. It is the only regulation that they can charge, as it is currently legal make mistakes on a climb or in this case, descent. Somehow they twist the language of the regulation into a pretzel. The reg says that disorderly conduct is actionable if it creates an unsafe condition. Sort of a chicken/egg situation, The "disorderly conduct is imputed in hind sight after the unsafe condition arises.
I would have fun cross-examining the governments witness. Who would be the witness? YOSAR members or the LEO who wrote the ticket? Did the LEO go up to rescue them? Has the LEO ever climbed? How many rescues does the LEO do every year? you get the idea, the regulation is aimed at the ahole who starts a fight, not a climber who gets in over his head. I think it is BS to criminally charge as a means of revenue generation. If they want to pursue rescue costs they should do it as a civil action. There are a few reasons they try to do it criminally and it bothers me.
As charged, disorderly conduct it is a big time loser for the prosecutor. Question is, how many trips to court until they drop the case.
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WBraun
climber
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Did the LEO go up to rescue them?
Every YOSAR incident is an LEO response and under the jurisdiction of LEO.
YOSAR is branch of Yosemite Protection Division (LEO).
Half the VALLEY LEO are very good climbers.
Some can lead 5.12 and have done El Cap some have done Nose in a Day and Half dome in a day.
Valley District Ranger has done many walls NIAD Half dome in a day and many free climbs.
You guy are dreaming.
Valley Rangers are all hard core athletes now.
No more donuts ......
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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The officer didn't actually write the ticket but had another office write it in her name (which sounds sketchy to me). This is the conversation when she gave me the ticket, "Your more experienced so this is your fault. You put a lot of people in danger because of rockfall potential. You are being cited for creating a hazardous condition and it will have a mandatory appearance in the valley." She walked away then. The guy who wrote the ticket was at least reasonable and actually corrected her by telling me I could in fact get the appearance moved if I wanted if I just called up the CVB in a few weeks. It was obvious she was getting enjoyment out of issuing the ticket.
I was surprised she specifically mentioned rockfall since A) nobody was below us on the route and B) I assume she will be quick to change the story in court.
An article on her says she "rappels to victims" but maybe that means being lowered. She was definitely not a member of the rescue team though.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Rockfall? That seems to be a rather specious claim. How is rappelling - or getting stuck on rappel - any more likely to create rockfall than climbing?
And if there was nobody beneath you, how could you be creating a rockfall risk?
If that's her case, it makes no sense.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Feb 10, 2013 - 12:50am PT
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Why?
What did he do wrong?
His partner called for a rescue he didn't ......
Have to respect your opinion WBraun. You would know better than just about anyone.
Personally, I feel that if I was in the same situation, I would assume some liability for partnering with an incompetent and making a choice to RAP THE NOSE. Seems like Chris was a part of the situation here and $1000 seems fairly inexpensive considering the apparent cost of the rescue. Fighting the government has never really worked out for me so maybe I am a bit jaded. To me $1000 bucks seems like a pretty good deal for being alive.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2013 - 01:25am PT
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Snowmassguy -- "Fighting the government has never really worked out for me ..."
You don't fight the govt. in a case like this.
You present the truth of what actually happened ......
If you can't do that in a systematic way to make the judge see that you are not liable for the said punishment then you might as well just pay the fine.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Feb 10, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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How DARE he PRESUME to rap EL CAP!!!111111
If this party was an EXPERIENCED group , the idea to rap would not be unreasonable. Under the same logic, if I was n00b and got stuck half way up the Nose because my partner was incompetent, would I be responsible for rescue costs? Wondering what the precedence is here.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 10, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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You present the truth of what actually happened ......
If you can't do that in a systematic way to make the judge see that you are not liable for the said punishment
A true statement if applied to the government. Burden of proof is on the prosecutor, not on the defendant. Government puts a witness on the stand to make their case. It has to be a witness who saw first hand what happened and can testify as to the fact and can testify as to the facts that rose to disorderly conduct. Could be a series of witnesses.
If the prosecutor can not make a good case, beyond a reasonable doubt then Chris wins without even putting on a defense, as in the OJ Simpson trial. If the LEO cited rockfall as the hazard then I would suspect that LEO is not an experienced climber. They are off to a bad start on their prosecution. Granted, they will certainly have a different story at the time of trial.
A full blown trial costs money and time. Just because you can win the battle does not mean you can win the war.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
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Now that is an interesting comment. One I tend to agree with. No one goes out climbing or anything else and plans to need assistance from 911. Most of the time when it happens one can analyze and see various errors that could have been avoided . often errors the participants were well aware of sitting at home before the trip.
Well holy sh#t .. we just discovered that to err is human. What a remarkable insight.
Being that we all make mistakes we know better than to do (sometimes we are lucky and it doesnt kill us).. it stands to reason that we all should be pretty glad to pitch in on a society that helps out and can save our lives if needed.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Feb 13, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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As it turns out, I guess all rescues are billed to the victim. Just got a bill for $900 for my rescue in September. I thought they only billed in the case of incompetence or unnecessary calls. Live and learn.
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
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As it turns out, I guess all rescues are billed to the victim. Just got a bill for $900 for my rescue in September. I thought they only billed in the case of incompetence or unnecessary calls. Live and learn.
I don't believe you get billed for a rescue unless it involves a transport to the hospital. Otherwise the state pays for it.
Does anyone know if it is legal for an officer to write a violation in another officers name? If that is legal how can it be known who actually issued it?
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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I got this in the mail today form John Dill.
A few months ago I got a missed call from a number I didn't recognize and a few minutes later got a call from someone else saying that someone from YOSAR was trying to reach me. I had no idea what they could be trying to reach me for so urgently. I called back and talked to John Dill. He explained that he wanted to set up a time to talk about what happened and that he had some gear he thought might be mine. He described what he had to me and I told him what was mine. He said he would be happy to ship it out to me. I protested for a while but since it would have been trash otherwise, I gave in and told him my address. After a few weeks, I figured I wouldn't get the package but sure enough it just arrived via insured mail with a note apologizing for the delay from John Dill himself.
I just thought it was a really classy move considering the fact that he could have easily trashed the gear without a second thought.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Just came across this thread. Ho-man!
This kind of stuff was often proactively managed back in the 80's. In Camp 4, resident sages would be telling it like it is, keeping numbies in line, i.e.: http://www.fishproducts.com/supertopo/nose_rap.mov
Walt would have probably also had something to say to redirect the misadventurers...
Bob the Aid Man was the only one I knew who discussed and planned harebrained ideas and actually pulled them off.
No offence to those involved, but it does sound like a case of inexperience where better judgement should have prevailed. I think there is plenty of info available that makes it clear how to rappel with packs and re-ascend ropes that would logically lead to the need to know these skills prior to embarking on rappelling one of Earth's biggest cliffs.
Edit: To Chris-- Might be the "other guy's" fault as inferred, but a team is a team, it seems you should accept the NPS consequence--it does seem like it was your idea--and clearly you have some responsibility in taking an inexperienced partner (and sending him down the rope first).
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bend Oregon
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Oh man, John. You missed out. The thread was a real time epic. From start to finish, the guy seems to have taken it well though. By the way, do you have beta on rapping tricks of the trade? Haha.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Sweanee, TN
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There was a fatality involving a group of cavers in the 80's. I dont know about one in the 90's? The eighties group was using single rope techniques. L know folks that were there. After that accident very long rappel racks were invented.
I have been to Yosomite with two groups that rappeled El Cap from the diving board. One in 04 and another in 2010. I plan to come with a group that will be doing it again in July. They train hard and practice with weighted rope to simulate the conditions at the top.
A fellow in our group wanted to rappel the nose, rock climber style like Chris attempted. His partner bailed. Smart girl. After reading this stuff I am really glad they did not attempt it.
See yall there.
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WBraun
climber
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Meh
Rappelling is easy.
Just clip rope and slide down ......
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Googlymoogly
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
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I haven’t checked this thread for a while and haven’t seen these last few posts. Here is a final update.
As stated before, my partner got a $1000 with a year probation. I tried to argue mine down a number of ways, including showing that $1000 was about 30% of my yearly income (student) but the prosecutor wasn’t willing to budge. I negotiated the deal so I could do 80% community service and it will be kept of my record entirely. Essentially it is a deal between the prosecutor and I that she won’t continue to prosecute as long as I fulfill the “donation” to the mountain safety fund. After waiting a whole month the prosecutor finally got me a copy of the agreement with her signature. Extremely unprofessional in my opinion but at least I have a copy now stating the terms.
I have kept in touch with Pete since he wanted to know what was going on and he asked that I let everyone know a few things. First, I was able to see the NPS file on the incident and they had copies of everything I said on here, and they absolutely tried to use it against me. Second, I was also able to see my “statement of probable cause” and it was far from accurate. It claimed that I admitted to officer Hendy that I was guilty (as I said in my report, she assumed guilt before asking me a single question). She also claims I didn’t have the gear to rescue my partner (which she couldn’t have known one way or another since my partner was the only one to have his gear searched by anyone at all). She also included a lot of arbitrary facts like the number of rappel stations on the Nose which also wasn’t accurate. She states the rockfall risk again despite no parties below and describes lightning as a risk despite a lack of any lightning even close to El Cap (They all were timing it on top of El Cap and stated that it was only moving farther away).
As for cost, the official price was about $10,000 for the helicopter and another $10,000 for everything else.
Now that it has been a year exactly today, it is funny the things I remember now and how my views have changed. In some ways for the better of my case and in some ways for the worse.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What, you're saying the guvmint played fast and loose with the facts? SHOCKING!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apparently you didn't know how many rap stations were on the nose either.
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julton
climber
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So googly, are you saying that the NPS gave you a bad rap?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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There's a fine line between incompetence and knowingly accepting risk. I've been guilty of both when things blew up. Luckily I didn't need a rescue.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Everything you say can and WILL be used against you. oh and cops lie .. they are TRAINED to.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I think Chris is a real Standup Guy to come here and tell everyone exactly what happened. Kind of like a confessing your sins to the entire world, and then being willing to accept the consequences. That takes a lot more balls than climbing or rapping El Cap.
And like any "accident report", giving others the opportunity to read it and learn from it can help prevent similar future problems.
"Everything you say can and WILL be used against you. oh and cops lie .. they are TRAINED to."
It was disturbing for me to learn that not only are cops trained to lie, and that they are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to say something stupid to incriminate yourself, but it is against the law for you to lie to them!
Accordingly, the only response is to SAY NOTHING. And you Merricans really need to be aware of your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights and exercise them.
Anyway, good luck, Chris. Maybe you should consider starting on El Cap the old fashioned way, at the bottom and working your way up? Come help me fix some pitches this fall. I still don't have any climbing partners lined up, and would like to do a couple walls - one starting mid-September and another starting early October. Need to get my 50th El Cap route done!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Tip of the iceberg, Pete. Just imagine what goes on in a high profile case, where there's no actual evidence but enormous public pressure to put somebody away. Only thing to do is, round up the usual suspects, accuse them all, then get them to blame it on the same guy. He may not have done it, but its gets a 'bad guy' off the street and satisfies the public outcry.
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Nilepoc
Big Wall climber
Tx
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
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Accidents in North American Mountaineering has the report on the rescue. It mentions supertopo.com as a source of information on the rescue.
Page 40
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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I like the first line in their analysis:
"Space in Accidents does not permit a full description and analysis of this incident"
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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Top two threads on supertopo since I've been here, are this one, and Mark Hudon's live feed from Iron Hawk. And now an important message from the corporate motivation department:
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The Fist
Trad climber
reno,nv
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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I know this is perhaps a little off-topic, but I really need to know the answer to this vexing image: Cosmiccragsman the photo you post of Mr. Rohrer captioned 'Tom the mad bolter,' is the blond gal standing behind him his daughter, and if not how did you convince him to go out in drag and how come he appears decades younger? Photoshop?
Just really curious, and thank you.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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That was my group. The raleller is Chad McCain, at the top is Tiny Manke and at the bottom is Kelly Coneley.
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WBraun
climber
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I believe he would have made it if it wasn't for his knucklehead cocky partner.
Chris Guglielmucci's partner was kind of a cocky stoopid arrogant dude ......
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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That is one long mf rope.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'll sit up and notice when someone does it solo, placing all of their own anchors (nuts only) using a dulfersitz.
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bbbeans
Trad climber
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Nov 28, 2018 - 08:54am PT
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Was trying to play Russ's Audio Rant in this thread for a friend of mine the other day and the link was no longer working. :( Anyone have another source for it? This is one of my all-time favorite Supertopo threads.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 23, 2019 - 03:19pm PT
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i'm at work.
You werk for the gubmint?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 29, 2019 - 06:45pm PT
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Start at the Downward Bound Bar or whatever it is called now...Every party on the Nose caries a Taser these days so be polite dude."Don't tase me bro" won't get it done anymore.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 29, 2019 - 11:05pm PT
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Wake up Numbskull Troll. What if you ain't nothing to begin with and were suddenly gone????Crisis...not really.
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fragglerockjoe
Trad climber
space-man from outer space
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Mar 29, 2019 - 11:59pm PT
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Werner was right. Yall some wankers.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 30, 2019 - 10:13am PT
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You back delete your post and then claim to be brave. Totally laughable.
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fragglerockjoe
Trad climber
space-man from outer space
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Mar 30, 2019 - 10:50am PT
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Aren't you supposed to be in the space needle, or playing soccer, or climbing near Index. Now stop your narcissistic crap and Leggo my ego.
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